From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 1 00:24:49 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 01:24:49 -0400 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> <462F3ACB.5281.142E0331@cclist.sydex.com> <1177618113.21916.91.camel@linux.site> <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Apr 30, 2007, at 5:28 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> You can't beat Vern Buerg's Veneered and Generated LIST. After >>> many years, still my favorite. >>> >>> http://www.buerg.com/ >> That's got MY vote, FWIW. > > It's nice to see LIST getting the votes, but it's very slow on 808x > hardware, which was Dave's target platform. Buh?? I don't think I've ever seen a lighter-weight piece of software than LIST...I used it daily when my 8MHz V20-based PC clone was considered a screamer, and it was never any slower than "instant". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 1 00:49:08 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 02:49:08 -0300 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C597@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <02b801c78bb4$bef35260$f0fea8c0@alpha> >continued to play with floppy media for years. A wonderful example is their >Cricket drive - every PC collection should have one. Maybe Click? :o) That was nice, a drive inside a pcmcia card :oD From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 1 00:50:56 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 02:50:56 -0300 Subject: WY-30 10 duds Wyse terminals update: References: <20070501011626.MMTK1630.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <02b901c78bb4$bf33b6c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Note: I had diffcult time finding 6800 (68B00 same CPU but it's 2MHz) > datasheet. Still couldn't find it except for pinout which helped me > to figure out that one terminal. http://www.datasheetarchive.com/search.php?q=6800&sType=part&ExactDS=Starts Datasheetarchive is your friend ;o) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 1 01:28:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 02:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <46361098.5000206@garlic.com> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46361098.5000206@garlic.com> Message-ID: <200705010634.CAA28007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I don't recall any sV or BSD system I used through to the late 80's > having anything but the Enigma style crypt function for passwords. The mtXinu 4.3+NFS I used in the late '80s used DES-based password hashing. Enigma-style encryption was present as crypt(1), but crypt(3) was quite definitely salted-mutant-DES. SunOS of the same era also used the same mutant-DES algorithm, but I have no memories to say just how far back this was true. I *think* this was also true of 4.2; until now I'd've assumed it was also true of 4.1c before it, but that was an assumption - I can't recall ever looking at the password handling code under 4.1c. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue May 1 01:44:12 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:44:12 -0700 Subject: Big IBM stuff at auction closing soon. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4636E1BC.4020300@sbcglobal.net> Big and heavy IBM stuff closing soon. I could probably help someone pick this up and move it in the SF bay area. http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=185531 Bob From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 1 01:45:46 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 01:45:46 -0500 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> <462F3ACB.5281.142E0331@cclist.sydex.com> <1177618113.21916.91.camel@linux.site> <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4636E21A.1030904@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: >> It's nice to see LIST getting the votes, but it's very slow on 808x >> hardware, which was Dave's target platform. > > > Buh?? I don't think I've ever seen a lighter-weight piece of > software than LIST...I used it daily when my 8MHz V20-based PC clone > was considered a screamer, and it was never any slower than "instant". An 8MHz 8086 is more than twice as fast as Dave's target hardware (a 4.77MHz 8088). On such a machine, it would be tolerable. Look, it's a nice viewer, but view a file out of a ramdisk on a 4.77MHz 8088 if you don't believe me. There's a 5-second minimum startup delay to fill a buffer, then another delay when you cross memory windows. If you're trying to inspect more than a handful of files at the same time, it gets frustrating. Don't confuse small size and age with "lightweight". A Boyer-Moore search algorithm written in Pascal will outperform a REP CMPSB in assembler. LIST is flexible but it's not the fastest. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From robert at irrelevant.com Tue May 1 06:23:31 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:23:31 +0100 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200705010634.CAA28007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46361098.5000206@garlic.com> <200705010634.CAA28007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705010423r429525as12471ffa635be461@mail.gmail.com> One very trivial scheme I saw used once, more to hide from hex dumps rather than actually encrypt, was to shift the enire bit stream over by 4 bits. e.g. "memory", 6d 65 6d 6f 72 79, would be stored as 06 d6 56 d6 f7 27 90. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 1 07:18:11 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 08:18:11 -0400 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <02b801c78bb4$bef35260$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C597@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <02b801c78bb4$bef35260$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 5/1/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >continued to play with floppy media for years. A wonderful example is their > >Cricket drive - every PC collection should have one. > > Maybe Click? :o) That was nice, a drive inside a pcmcia card :oD I have a couple of those - I had to use one a year ago as it was the best choice to transfer a few dozen megs to a laptop that needed driver updates after an install. I could have pulled the laptop's drive and written to it externally, or I could have gone searching (somewhere) for a USB floppy drive, or a thumb drive, but both machines on the desk had PCMCIA, and I had 2 Click drives and a couple of disks, so it made sense. Is it me, or do the Click media look like the disks in the "museum of alien technology" scene in "Men In Black" ("Now I'm going to have to go buy the White Album again")? -ethan From feldman.r at comcast.net Tue May 1 08:36:37 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 13:36:37 +0000 Subject: IBM 540MB old hard drive Message-ID: <050120071336.9817.46374265000E8FF50000265922070215739DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Hi Jim, I'm going to the City of Chicago recycling center on Goose Island this weekend to dump some old monitors. I'll let you know if there is anything interesting there. Otherwise, as you say, the thrift stores in Chicago are worthless. I had much better luck with the dumpster out behind a local computer repair place near Northeastern Illinois University (5600 N, 3500W) until they moved. From the junk discarded, it looked like they had contracts to service copy machines and some document scanning systems, as well as PC's. You might want to leave word with places like that about what you are interested in. Bob P.S. Jim, my email to trixter at oldskool.org was bounced with the following message: The following addresses had fatal errors: trixter at oldskool.org: 550 [PERMFAIL] destination not valid within DNS Message: 7 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:33:59 -0500 From: Jim Leonard Subject: Re: IBM 540MB old hard drive To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <463660C7.4090209 at oldskool.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Paxton Hoag wrote: > In Portland Oregon I would try the Free Geeks Thrift Store on 10th St > east side 2 blocks south of Hawthorn. > > In Eugene Oregon I would look at NextStep Recycling thrift store. They > often have 2 inch hard drives but I haven't looked at them. Are there any of these kinds of stores in the Chicagoland area? The only one I know of is Software Re-Runs, but that's more of a repair shop than a recycler/thrift. I have had *zero* out of at least 20 goodwill store successes (99% of the computer stuff is old VGA monitors) so that's out in this area. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 1 08:47:38 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 07:47:38 -0600 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:09:47 -0700. <46365B1B.30368.AD8187F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <46365B1B.30368.AD8187F at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > The Imation guy got back to me and informed me that, as far as the > factory is concerned, there is no belt. They start with die-cut > doughnuts of a type of sheet polyurethane (proprietary treatment) > and feed them into a jig that "flips" and stretches them to shape. > He said that it was virtually impossible to do this manually. > > So, if you've got a belt that holds its shape as a belt, it's > probably too far gone already. Would it be possible to setup something like the rig that Al has at the Computer History Museum for QIC tapes? Namely, something with analog read heads that are connected straight to an ADC and signal processed to recover data. You have the tape brought over the heads at a slower than normal rate, either manually or with a special motorized rig. I have a feeling that after 7/9-track tapes that QIC cartridges are going to be the next major medium that needs reconstruction in this fashion. They don't use helical scan on QIC tapes do they? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 10:15:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 08:15:18 -0700 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4636F716.30033.D396BF5@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2007 at 7:47, Richard wrote: > Would it be possible to setup something like the rig that Al has at > the Computer History Museum for QIC tapes? Maybe, but I think the best thing to start with would be a standard 3-motor setup (one motor per reel and one on the capstan. You'd have to remove the tape spools from the cartridge, of course, but I suspect it might be possible to set something like this up with the works from an old audio cassette drive. Tracks on a QIC cart are serpentine--they reverse direction at each tape end. QIC tape tracks tend to be very narrow, which means that if you're going to use lower tape speeds, a modern head (GMR?) might be a good choice. I don't know why it couldn't be done, but we haven't yet seen a lot of QIC recovery work to justify this yet. I suspect that DLTwill be the jackpot medium in data recovery. > They don't use helical scan on QIC tapes do they? Not on the big carts, but I think there were some helical-scan Travan tapes, weren't there? And there was the Pereos--thank heavens, the life on that venture was mercifully short. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue May 1 11:09:25 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:09:25 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C599@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> * Alexandre Souza wrote: >continued to play with floppy media for years. A wonderful example is their >Cricket drive - every PC collection should have one. Maybe Click? :o) That was nice, a drive inside a pcmcia card :oD ---------------- You're right. My bad. Too much crosstalk between my synapses. The IOmega drive was the Click. The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did get to market. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 11:29:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 09:29:06 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C599@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C599@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46370862.15266.D7CFA34@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2007 at 9:09, Billy Pettit wrote: > The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market > though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did > get to market. Didn't HP roll out a very small hard drive before that? I seem to recall that there was something about the head suspension that would enable it to withstand very high G-forces. Cheers, Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Tue May 1 11:53:45 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <46370862.15266.D7CFA34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C599@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46370862.15266.D7CFA34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 May 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 09:29:06 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving > > On 1 May 2007 at 9:09, Billy Pettit wrote: > >> The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market >> though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did >> get to market. > > Didn't HP roll out a very small hard drive before that? I seem to > recall that there was something about the head suspension that would > enable it to withstand very high G-forces. > > Cheers, > Chuck > The KittyHawk, but that was 1.3" and 1992 Peter Wallace From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 1 11:58:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:58:50 -0400 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <4636E21A.1030904@oldskool.org> References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> <462F3ACB.5281.142E0331@cclist.sydex.com> <1177618113.21916.91.camel@linux.site> <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> <4636E21A.1030904@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <47439BAB-A946-4497-9EE7-DE3A00D39DE3@neurotica.com> On May 1, 2007, at 2:45 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> It's nice to see LIST getting the votes, but it's very slow on >>> 808x hardware, which was Dave's target platform. >> Buh?? I don't think I've ever seen a lighter-weight piece of >> software than LIST...I used it daily when my 8MHz V20-based PC >> clone was considered a screamer, and it was never any slower than >> "instant". > > An 8MHz 8086 is more than twice as fast as Dave's target hardware > (a 4.77MHz 8088). On such a machine, it would be tolerable. > > Look, it's a nice viewer, but view a file out of a ramdisk on a > 4.77MHz 8088 if you don't believe me. There's a 5-second minimum > startup delay to fill a buffer, then another delay when you cross > memory windows. If you're trying to inspect more than a handful of > files at the same time, it gets frustrating. Hmm. Well admittedly that was twenty years ago; it's certainly quite possible that there was frustration involved that I don't recall now. I have nothing but fond memories of LIST.COM, and I tend to be not very forgiving about stuff that frustrates me. > Don't confuse small size and age with "lightweight". Um...I *wasn't*; I based my comments on having used the program all the time on what was then considered current hardware. Please keep in mind that some of us here (yourself included of course) have actually used this stuff before it became "antique". > A Boyer-Moore search algorithm written in Pascal will outperform > a REP CMPSB in assembler. LIST is flexible but it's not the fastest. Understood. And I've certainly not run it on a 4.77MHz 8088. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue May 1 14:08:28 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:08:28 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: On 1 May 2007 at 9:09, Billy Pettit wrote: > The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market > though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did > get to market. Didn't HP roll out a very small hard drive before that? I seem to recall that there was something about the head suspension that would enable it to withstand very high G-forces. Cheers, Chuck --------------------- Billy wrote: HP rolled out the Kittyhawk in the mid-'80s. It had reasonable success in some printers and copiers, as well as a few other applications. They are fun little drives to play with. The Cricket was about 8 years earlier and had no success - the technology wasn't there. There were many other experiments in small factor over the last 30 years. I remember a Comdex in the late '80s where IBM showed off a 7/8" drive. They were going to mount 32 of them on both sides of PC card and have a plug in RAID system. Like all multiple drive applications, the vibration from drive working gave errors to the rest. Conner made a 1.3 inch drive in the early '90s. I see them on eBay a few times a year. I have one that is still operational. There have been numerous attempts at the small form factor. The iPod was the first practical application so it drove the 1.8" development and production. It also drove the 1" development. That turned out to be a disaster for everyone involved when the Price War on NAND Flash destroyed the 1" market. It didn't help the Flash people either. (So far this year, NAND prices have dropped 65%!) There must have been other small drives. It's an idea that looks great until you try to do execute. I've only mentioned the ones that I worked on or have samples to study. Billy From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 1 14:36:26 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:36:26 -0300 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C599@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <03ce01c78c28$6e8d4140$f0fea8c0@alpha> >The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market >though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did >get to market. Billy, wasn't that drive that fitted a Polaroid PDC-2000 camera? I had one of these with a VERY SMALL hard drive inside! Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 15:10:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 13:10:58 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46373C62.22648.E4819EF@cclist.sydex.com> What was the smallest fixed-head drum memory ever constructed? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 13:11:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:11:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <292221.34185.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 30, 7 03:55:27 pm Message-ID: > > Interestingly, there is no ROM chip in a PCW. Part > > of the ULA acts as a > > tiny bootstrap ROM (it outputs the correct states > > onto the data bus > > depending on the state of the address bus), just > > enough to read the boot > > sector into RAM and execute it. > > Holy freeholy Batman. Now that's a first for me. It something of a shock for me when I read the schematics (amazingly I've never seen inside a physical PCW...) [Serial/parallel interface] > > no idea where you'd > > find one. > > Gee thanks mate. Leave me hanging. Yes I was made > aware of the interface. But for starters I think I'll > need to worry more about hacking up a ribbon. As if > I'd find the time... > > Contrariwise I guess it wouldn't be any big deal to > create an rs-232* interface from scratch. I can dream > can't I? AFAIKL there are no custom chips in it, it's jsut a bit of TTL, and some standard peripheral chips. I can find out more (and find the pinout of the bus connector) if you're serious about making one. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 1 15:55:14 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 15:55:14 -0500 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <46373C62.22648.E4819EF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46373C62.22648.E4819EF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4637A932.4070600@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What was the smallest fixed-head drum memory ever constructed? something out of a musical box, I suspect... From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue May 1 16:07:48 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:07:48 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis asked: What was the smallest fixed-head drum memory ever constructed? Cheers, Chuck ----------------- Billy: The smallest I ever worked on was a little less than 1" in diameter and 3" long. It used fluid bearings and spun at a high RPM - I want to say 10K but think it might be a little less. The heads fit on a bar that rotated to bring them close to the drum once it was up to speed. The bar was spring loaded so it could unload the heads automatically in case of a power failure. The whole assembly was heavily shielded and shock protected. It was to fit in a fire control computer used by the Navy and Air Force. It's purpose was to reload the main computer memories in case of an EMP from a nuclear device. It really sticks in my mind because I later found out that the purchase price was in excess of $100K. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue May 1 16:19:19 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:19:19 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Alexandre Souza asked: >The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market >though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did >get to market. Billy, wasn't that drive that fitted a Polaroid PDC-2000 camera? I had one of these with a VERY SMALL hard drive inside! Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza ---------------------- Billy answers: To my knowledge, no Crickets were ever sold. But an awful lot of samples went out. It was designed and built in the Normandale plant of Magnetic Peripherals. I know nothing about the Poloroid camera. But I'm not surprised. The small drive idea is one that seems to come to every engineer in the industry. There have to be more attempts. It's a geek thing. Keeps coming around; sort of like the 3.5" CD, or the vertical IC. Billy From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 1 16:21:24 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 17:21:24 -0400 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <4637A932.4070600@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46373C62.22648.E4819EF@cclist.sydex.com> <4637A932.4070600@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4637AF54.7030908@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> What was the smallest fixed-head drum memory ever constructed? > > something out of a musical box, I suspect... Quite possibly something even smaller than that. I myself made one as part of an elementary school class (3rd grade? Maybe 2nd.) out of a strip of paper wrapped around a pencil. Peace... Sridhar From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue May 1 14:19:15 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:19:15 +0000 Subject: WY-30 10 duds Wyse terminals update: In-Reply-To: <02b901c78bb4$bf33b6c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20070501231805.EYXU1593.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > http://www.datasheetarchive.com/search.php?q=6800&sType=part&ExactDS=Starts > > Datasheetarchive is your friend ;o) Alexandre, Thanks, and to others, is replacement generic flyback still in production for the WY-30? I have at least three that needs this. Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue May 1 14:22:01 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:22:01 +0000 Subject: WY-30 10 duds Wyse terminals update: In-Reply-To: <02b901c78bb4$bf33b6c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20070501232051.GCRV1612.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> While on this, I have couple that showed the frying D201 and D203 off the flyback but not so bad it would short, merely get so hot enough to melt solder! Is this sign of bad flyback transformer? Cheers, Wizard From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 18:55:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> References: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> Message-ID: <20070501165258.E83814@shell.lmi.net> > (When they start packaging food in those blankin' soddin' vinyl packages, I > expect to start hearing of people starving to death for being unable to open them.) ~25 years ago, a student in the lab managed to get the mylar out of it's jacket of a 5.25" diskette. Somebody asked her, "how come you didn't realize that something was wrong when it was so hard to take apart?" She replied, "it's just about as hard to open a bag of potato chips" From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 1 19:19:18 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 20:19:18 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <20070501165258.E83814@shell.lmi.net> References: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> <20070501165258.E83814@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4637D906.8010902@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> (When they start packaging food in those blankin' soddin' vinyl packages, I >> expect to start hearing of people starving to death for being unable to open them.) > > ~25 years ago, a student in the lab managed to get the mylar out of it's > jacket of a 5.25" diskette. Somebody asked her, "how come you didn't > realize that something was wrong when it was so hard to take apart?" > She replied, "it's just about as hard to open a bag of potato chips" I once got a similar explanation from someone who forced a second 3.5" floopy into a drive. "It wasn't that hard." Peace... Sridhar From fmc at reanimators.org Tue May 1 19:23:53 2007 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 17:23:53 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> (onymouse@garlic.com's message of "Mon\, 30 Apr 2007 09\:04\:52 -0700") References: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> Message-ID: <200705020023.l420NruJ002413@lots.reanimators.org> jd wrote: > Ensor wrote: [I think Ensor was quoting Tony Duell.] >> > I 'only' have the HP150-II. It's in a larger case, with a 12" >> >CRT, an optional touchscreen (which is fitted on mine).... >> > So you don't have to vacuum out the LED/sensor array every few weeks... Nice. A couple things about this. One, the optional touchscreen for the 150-II doesn't have the array of holes, it has a smooth piece of IR-transparent plastic over the LEDs and sensors. So, you don't have to vacuum out the LED/sensor array, just wipe it off. Two, it took about a year or two for 150A/B in an office environment to clog up. We had them under maintenance and the HP guy came out with tools that sucked and blew, and with little clear plastic covers of about 2-3mm thickness to sit over the bottom row of holes. These matched the curve of the CRT and were molded with two pegs poking down to sit in a couple of the LED/sensor holes. Having seen what was done, I pestered the HP field service guy for another dozen so we could outfit the rest of the 150A/Bs without needing to place service calls. I'm guessing the actual HP part is somewhere between LOOK R at RE and unobtainium now, 20 years later. > One Of These Days, I'm going to make some covers for those holes on my 150A's > from all that vinyl packaging I've had to buy just to (try to) get the stuff > inside them. As you might guess from the above, you can do that. -Frank McConnell From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue May 1 19:29:02 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:29:02 -0700 Subject: Heathkit ET3400 Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Can somone point me to scans of the manuals and schematics for the Heathkit trainer ET3400A? Thanks, Billy From evan at snarc.net Tue May 1 20:02:11 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:02:11 -0400 Subject: test - ignore Message-ID: <000001c78c55$850e8aa0$6401a8c0@evan> Just a test. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 1 21:58:12 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 21:58:12 -0500 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <4637D906.8010902@gmail.com> References: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> <20070501165258.E83814@shell.lmi.net> <4637D906.8010902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4637FE44.30308@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >>> (When they start packaging food in those blankin' soddin' vinyl >>> packages, I >>> expect to start hearing of people starving to death for being unable >>> to open them.) >> >> ~25 years ago, a student in the lab managed to get the mylar out of it's >> jacket of a 5.25" diskette. Somebody asked her, "how come you didn't >> realize that something was wrong when it was so hard to take apart?" >> She replied, "it's just about as hard to open a bag of potato chips" > > I once got a similar explanation from someone who forced a second 3.5" > floopy into a drive. "It wasn't that hard." I repaired a PeeCee awhile back that belonged to a child-care center, used by kids 5-10 years old. It kept throwing random reboots, and it turned out it was overheating. There were 12 or 15 CDs in the case, some on top of the CD drive and several that had fallen down behind it. One was almost flush against the PSU's inside vent grille. The kids had been trying to load disks and shoving them between the drive bezel and the drive-bay cover plate above it. Doc From hachti at hachti.de Tue May 1 22:36:17 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 05:36:17 +0200 Subject: PDP8/E schematics Message-ID: <46380731.2090802@hachti.de> Hi folks, I am looking for docs about my PDP8/E CPU. I found a maintainance manual ("volume 1" of ???) on bitsavers. But no schematic. So, who knows what documents I need and where to get them? Best wishes, Philipp :-) From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Tue May 1 22:39:07 2007 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (paulrsm at buckeye-express.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:39:07 -0700 Subject: Hawthorne 68000 SBC Message-ID: <20070501203907.9258E69@resin10.mta.everyone.net> Rich, nice job with the Hawthorne SBC page. I have one request: please provide not just disk images, but a ZIP archive containing the files from the disks. I also encourage you to scan and post any Hawthorne articles from The Computer Journal. In return, I have an issue (or issues) of the 68-KNEWS newsletter. I won't be back home for a few weeks, but when I find them they are yours. -- Paul Santa-Maria From wayne.smith at charter.net Tue May 1 23:18:24 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:18:24 -0700 Subject: Bandai Pippin aka Atmark In-Reply-To: <200704301701.l3UH0nOl068020@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00a201c78c70$f08803e0$6701a8c0@Wayne> Does anyone on the list own a Bandai Pippin - marketed in the UK and Japan as the "Atmark"? As owners of this Apple Power PC-powered box are well aware, software (mostly games and edutainment stuff) is difficult to come by, and when it appears on Ebay, often goes for stratospheric prices. For example: http://cgi.ebay.com/Bungie-Super-Marathon-for-Pippin-world-mark_W0QQitem Z150114489326QQihZ005QQcategoryZ62053QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem So, I am looking for Pippin owners who might have software to exchange. Here is a list of what I have: @World TV Works @World Basics @World Registration @World Browser Compton's Encyclopedia Racing Days Mr. Potato Head ("award winning") Home Improvement 1-2-3 (Home Depot) Ugoku Burotsuku (Japanese - "moving blocks") Fortullia (Japanese - "fortune teller") Victorian Park (Japanese) -W From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed May 2 00:03:17 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:03:17 -0700 Subject: PDP8/E schematics In-Reply-To: <46380731.2090802@hachti.de> References: <46380731.2090802@hachti.de> Message-ID: <200705012203.17679.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 01 May 2007 20:36, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I am looking for docs about my PDP8/E CPU. > I found a maintainance manual ("volume 1" of ???) on bitsavers. > But no schematic. > > So, who knows what documents I need and where to get them? Try: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 1 06:37:10 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 07:37:10 -0400 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <0JHD00A3Y1IV7LN3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving > From: "Billy Pettit" > Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:37:19 -0700 > To: > > >Chris M wrote: > Just curious how, or even if, old design drawings and >such were preserved in the old days. I could barely >venture a guess as to when the first optical recording >drives became "useful", all I remember is a friend >obtaining one of the first (locally) cd players for >his auto in ~the summer of '87. I was in contact with >a few of the people who were involved w/the Mindset >computer, and had hoped I would obtain info on the >custom vlsi chips it used, in any form of course. This >just lead me to ponder when this stuff started >*appearing* on cd's and such. > Can anyone name the different optical CD formats that >modern readers can't work with? I know there must be a few... > >------------- > >Billy answers: > >There are two parts to your question. The first is how old design drawings >were preserved. In all the companies I have worked for in the last 45 >years, the drawings were destroyed. Some individual copies survived. And >patent applications remain. But all design drawings were destroyed as a >matter of policy. That way there was no way support obligation coming up >long after it was cost effective. And it makes patent challenges difficult, >especially prior art arguments. > >Even today, most of the design archives where I work have a very limited >life time. Industrial archives are varied depending on product and lifetime of the product. Most places I've been 7 years seems to be the upper limit. There are exceptions, Military and aerospace in particular. Those guys have to by contract maintain complete archive and production sets for the operating life of the program. For example the Shuttle program is 30 years old and still going and the contractors are required to keep everything until 10 years after the last flight. Thats a lot of paper, blue line, Vellum, Mylar, tapes, floppies and even CDs. If the program requires ongoing material sourcing as in spares or parts to make a new airframe those drawings must be useable as well as production methods may be described in those documents. I will not address the second question on CDs. Allison From gods69 at club-internet.fr Tue May 1 07:02:51 2007 From: gods69 at club-internet.fr (Carlos Serra) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 14:02:51 +0200 Subject: sinclair spectrum ULA In-Reply-To: 5.1.1.6.0.20030604080555.03c2ac78@pop.freeserve.net Message-ID: <20070501140046.563C.GODS69@club-internet.fr> Hi Do you still have those 6C001E-7 chips to sell ? Thanks -- Carlos Serra From cc at corti-net.de Wed May 2 05:17:33 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:17:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B Message-ID: Hi, we've cleaned and powered up our TI 960B at our museum, it seems to be working fine. I've entered a small test program to test the basic parts: 1000 7007 0000 NOP 1002 7007 0000 NOP 1004 7082 1000 B @1000 Both single step and run mode work. But that's all we are able to do at the moment because there is no documentation available for the 960B. The machine (from 1975) has 8k of MOS memory, and only few CRU interfaces, one TT/EIA (TT), one data interface (DI) (I think it's a digital I/O board) and one timer interface (TI). So we need at least the programmer's guides for the TT and DI, maybe the service manuals for the entire machine. Is there a chance to find them somewhere? Christian From grant at stockly.com Wed May 2 11:35:59 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 08:35:59 -0800 Subject: Nice ad Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070502083325.03aa5a10@pop.1and1.com> 190107136286 Told him about the timeline of CP/M and DOS and he gave me a very rude response. So he got a "Inappropriate or excessive use of terms not relevant to the item " from me. Maybe otheres should point out the facts. : ) It really ticks me off when people try to take advantage of others... Grant From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed May 2 11:37:42 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:37:42 +0200 Subject: TNIX In-Reply-To: <463636F0.2050703@bitsavers.org> References: <463636F0.2050703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20070502183742.40bb0553@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:35:28 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > FWIW, there was a V7 based system called TNIX which shipped on the > 8560 development systems (11/23 and 11/73 based). Would be nice to > find the 8" diag and release floppies for this (I have a couple of > them). I have one of those machines along a 6800 and 68000 in circuit emulator. The system is working and bootable, but it needs a fsck. fsck is a stand alone utility and I didn't get any software with the machine, except what was instaled on the 8" HDD. It would be really nice to get the software and make the machine usable again. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 12:46:36 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 10:46:36 -0700 Subject: PDP8/E schematics Message-ID: <4638CE7C.1010807@bitsavers.org> > So, who knows what documents I need and where to get them? Clean copies of 8/E schematics are difficult to find. I'll go through the scans that I have to try to find a good set. Most of the omnibus interface schems are on line under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/omnibus From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 13:01:08 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:01:08 -0700 Subject: TNIX Message-ID: <4638D1E4.7080100@bitsavers.org> > fsck is a stand > alone utility and I didn't get any software with the machine, except > what was instaled on the 8" HDD. It would be really nice to get the > software and make the machine usable again. My machines are in the same state, which is why I asked about the stand-alone utilities. The only standard DEC card was the CPU. All of the rest was custom to Tek. The version of the box with 5" winchester uses a sasi host adapter, so in theory it should be possible to image the disc. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed May 2 13:03:50 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 13:03:50 -0500 Subject: Offer: old Linpack manual Message-ID: <51ea77730705021103w3cbc557bp1a55d4e8a9236a2e@mail.gmail.com> Need to start paring down my book collection/pile! Will send this to whoever wants it for the cost of shipping. "Linpack Users' Guide" from 1979. ISBN 0-89871-172-X. Authors Dongarra, Bunch, Moler, Stewart. It's in good shape but has some writing on the first page. Appears to be a second printing. Preface contains a nice list of Linpack test sites and the machines in use, including the CDC Cyber 175 at NASA, and a Honeywell 6080 at Bell Labs. I'm in 60074 zip, will send book rate or whatever you like. -- jht From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 13:07:38 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:07:38 -0700 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B Message-ID: <4638D36A.2030105@bitsavers.org> > So we need at least the programmer's > guides for the TT and DI I thought they were the same boards as used in the 980B I'll check to see if I've put scans for the 980 versions on line. At least some of the 980 documentation refers to 960/980 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 13:19:19 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:19:19 -0700 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B Message-ID: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> I just checked the CHM archives, and we have a pretty complete set of 960B hardware docs. I'll see about getting it scanned. From jrr at flippers.com Wed May 2 11:26:57 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 09:26:57 -0700 Subject: Heathkit ET3400 In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: At 5:29 PM -0700 5/1/07, Billy Pettit wrote: >Can somone point me to scans of the manuals and schematics for the Heathkit >trainer ET3400A? > >Thanks, >Billy They turn up from time to time on eBay. I have a set that I am planning to scan - some day... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed May 2 13:44:01 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 14:44:01 -0400 Subject: Heathkit ET3400 In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070502144321.03da9940@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Robertson may have mentioned these words: >At 5:29 PM -0700 5/1/07, Billy Pettit wrote: >>Can somone point me to scans of the manuals and schematics for the Heathkit >>trainer ET3400A? >> >>Thanks, >>Billy > >They turn up from time to time on eBay. I have a set that I am planning to >scan - some day... I also just stumbled across the set of manuals for mine just the other day... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed May 2 14:39:38 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 14:39:38 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ET3400 In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <200705021844.l42IitYq014977@keith.ezwind.net> > >Can somone point me to scans of the manuals and schematics for the Heathkit > >trainer ET3400A? > > > >Thanks, > >Billy I've got some of the ET-3400 material up on my site. I'd also check the sebhc archive (www.sebhc.org) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 2 13:50:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 13:50:21 -0500 Subject: Nice ad In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070502083325.03aa5a10@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070502083325.03aa5a10@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4638DD6D.6090904@yahoo.co.uk> Grant Stockly wrote: > 190107136286 > > Told him about the timeline of CP/M and DOS and he gave me a very rude > response. So he got a "Inappropriate or excessive use of terms not > relevant to the item " from me. > > Maybe otheres should point out the facts. : ) Credit for the "LCD screens did not exist" line, too :-) From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 2 14:33:04 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <176952.9247.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > I just checked the CHM archives, and we have a > pretty complete > set of 960B hardware docs. I'll see about getting it > scanned. I would also be interested in this. I also have a 980B, which has been languishing for lack of documentation. --Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 2 14:33:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent5 In-Reply-To: <1177948168.10270.19.camel@gjcp-desktop> References: <200704291705.l3TH3UMB050060@dewey.classiccmp.org> <841F9BA3-E2AD-4E9B-B2AD-53630A7A2434@microspot.co.uk> <1177888350.6869.0.camel@elric> <463607F0.8010202@jetnet.ab.ca> <4635FE1E.3010905@gmail.com> <1177948168.10270.19.camel@gjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <20070502122812.I24351@shell.lmi.net> We just (12:20) had a tiny one in Oakland. I'll guess about 3.0 USGS thinks that it was about a mile N of the Macarthur mess. Whether or not you notice the tiny ones is largely a function of how tall your collection is piled. (A 5150 PC Tech manual on top of one of the bookcases fell) From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 2 14:34:30 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <10653.18508.qm@web82613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > I just checked the CHM archives, and we have a > pretty complete > set of 960B hardware docs. I'll see about getting it > scanned. Oops, I see you referenced the 960B, not the 980B. I'm looking for a set of maintenance prints for a 980B. --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 2 14:44:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:44:47 -0400 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <176952.9247.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> <176952.9247.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/2/07, William Maddox wrote: > > --- Al Kossow wrote: > > > I just checked the CHM archives, and we have a > > pretty complete > > set of 960B hardware docs. I'll see about getting it > > scanned. > > I would also be interested in this. I also have > a 980B, which has been languishing for lack of > documentation. They're all coming out of the woodwork now, aren't they? I have one, too, and could use some docs. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 2 14:53:13 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 14:53:13 -0500 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B References: <10653.18508.qm@web82613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003f01c78cf3$876e8fe0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Bill wrote... > Oops, I see you referenced the 960B, not the 980B. > I'm looking for a set of maintenance prints for a > 980B. I have a TI 990 to restore at some point too... several machines in front of it though :\ Jay From jzg22 at drexel.edu Wed May 2 16:06:41 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 17:06:41 -0400 Subject: Big pile of VAX documentation to be disposed In-Reply-To: <200705021701.l42H0RfG097377@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705021701.l42H0RfG097377@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4638FD61.9040301@drexel.edu> There is a large pile of VAX and other documentation waiting for disposal on the 7th floor of Disque Hall at Drexel University in Philadelphia. Disque hall is located on the former 32nd street between market and chestnut streets, its the tall(~10 floors)) brick building. Pretty much everything paper, and a working Phaser 370? printer (missing its paper tray and missing the centronics->microcentronics adapter but otherwise working) is free for the taking. This documentation originally went along with the VAX machine which someone from the list rescued from there about 2 years ago when it was being disposed. Jonathan Gevaryahu jzg22 at drexel.edu From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 16:22:43 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 14:22:43 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. Message-ID: <46390123.1070001@bitsavers.org> > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/selectric_term1.jpg Found one in the CHM collection today. It is a "Datel 30". There are a few mentions of it on the web, mostly saying it was a light-duty device that broke a lot. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed May 2 17:20:05 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:20:05 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Al Kossow wrote: > Found one in the CHM collection today. It is a "Datel 30". There are a few mentions of it on the web, mostly saying it was a light-duty device that broke a lot. ------------------------------- Billy asks: Wasn't Datel one of the first to offer timeshare services? Sort of a precursor to the Internet? I remember Datel advertising on TV about making stock market transactions in your office. The model 33 was not the most popular device for that environment. Billy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 17:27:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 23:27:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: TNIX In-Reply-To: <4638D1E4.7080100@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at May 2, 7 11:01:08 am Message-ID: > > > fsck is a stand > > alone utility and I didn't get any software with the machine, except > > what was instaled on the 8" HDD. It would be really nice to get the > > software and make the machine usable again. > > My machines are in the same state, which is why I asked about the stand-alone It is possible I have them, I will ahve to check. I have 2 of these machines, one with an 11/03 processor and dual floppy drives running whatever the single-taksing OS was called, and one with a 11/23 procesor and a (8") hard drive running TNIX. I know I got some disks with them, but I can't erememebr if any were for TNIX > utilities. The only standard DEC card was the CPU. All of the rest was custom > to Tek. The version of the box with 5" winchester uses a sasi host adapter, so > in theory it should be possible to image the disc. The 8" winchester machines have a Micropolis 1203 drive with the standard Micropolis controller board on top. The host interface for that is not SASI (AFAIK), but it is documented in the Micropolis documentation. So it may be possible ot image that drive too. -tony From pcw at mesanet.com Wed May 2 18:15:25 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 16:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy emulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there anyone with experience doing hardware floppy emulation here? I may have a project that could use some paid expertise in this area... Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 2 18:23:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 17:23:26 -0600 Subject: Big pile of VAX documentation to be disposed In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 02 May 2007 17:06:41 -0400. <4638FD61.9040301@drexel.edu> Message-ID: In article <4638FD61.9040301 at drexel.edu>, Jonathan Gevaryahu writes: > There is a large pile of VAX and other documentation waiting for > disposal on the 7th floor of Disque Hall at Drexel University in > Philadelphia. Is there anything graphics related? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From onymouse at garlic.com Wed May 2 08:47:15 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 06:47:15 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <200705020023.l420NruJ002413@lots.reanimators.org> References: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> <200705020023.l420NruJ002413@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <46389663.3080502@garlic.com> Frank McConnell wrote: > jd wrote: > >> Ensor wrote: >> > > [I think Ensor was quoting Tony Duell.] > > >>> > I 'only' have the HP150-II. It's in a larger case, with a 12" >>> >CRT, an optional touchscreen (which is fitted on mine).... >>> >>> >> So you don't have to vacuum out the LED/sensor array every few weeks... Nice. >> > > A couple things about this. > > One, the optional touchscreen for the 150-II doesn't have the array of > holes, it has a smooth piece of IR-transparent plastic over the LEDs > and sensors. So, you don't have to vacuum out the LED/sensor array, > just wipe it off. > > It's cool, ain't it? > Two, it took about a year or two for 150A/B in an office environment > to clog up. > Three months max in the office and two years in a class 1000 cleanroom. Sucking and blowing was not good enough to clean the units out; they had to be disassembled and cleaned out with wipes and swabs. The 150C's had to be wiped off every few weeks or the touch feature would get erratic. And cleaned the internal printer without chipping the print head. Ruined a few silent 700s learning how... Of course, when they were opened for cleaning, we would just clean the whole thing out and drop the really stubbornly dirty stuff in the vapor degreaser. Better than zapping it with compressed gas. I suppose it's better in areas where the water isn't as hard and doesn't turn clothes washers into clothes grinders. >> One Of These Days, I'm going to make some covers for those holes on my 150A's >> from all that vinyl packaging I've had to buy just to (try to) get the stuff >> inside them. >> > > As you might guess from the above, you can do that. > > Yep, we figured that out, eventually. Used acetate back then. -- jd Do not try to solve all life's problems at once -- learn to dread each day as it comes. -- Donald Kaul From hachti at hachti.de Wed May 2 19:19:59 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 02:19:59 +0200 Subject: PDP8/E schematics In-Reply-To: <4638CE7C.1010807@bitsavers.org> References: <4638CE7C.1010807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46392AAF.8090706@hachti.de> Hi, Al Kossow wrote: > > So, who knows what documents I need and where to get them? > > Clean copies of 8/E schematics are difficult to find. I'll go through > the scans that I have to try to find a good set. I know... But I don't give up the hope to find.... :-) > > Most of the omnibus interface schems are on line under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/omnibus Ah, cool, thanks. At the moment I am looking for the CPU schematics to repair my CPU which behaves strangely. Regards, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 2 20:11:20 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 21:11:20 -0400 Subject: Hawthorne 68000 SBC In-Reply-To: <20070501203907.9258E69@resin10.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: I have a ZIP file somewhere here with all of the files in it. Of course, that won't include the boot sector. I don't have many TCJ issues, and it seems that I'm missing Issue #30 which has some Hawthorne stuff in it. If anyone can give me a list of the issues I'll try to match them up with my stock and scan what I have. Thanks (in advance) for the 68-KNEWS copies. I will most certainly post them. Also, if you have any software, let's get an archive going. ...I found the zip file and I posted it this evening. Rich On 5/1/07 11:39 PM, "paulrsm at buckeye-express.com" wrote: > Rich, nice job with the Hawthorne SBC page. > > I have one request: please provide not just disk images, > but a ZIP archive containing the files from the disks. > > I also encourage you to scan and post any Hawthorne > articles from The Computer Journal. > > In return, I have an issue (or issues) of the 68-KNEWS > newsletter. I won't be back home for a few weeks, but > when I find them they are yours. > > -- > Paul Santa-Maria Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed May 2 20:16:40 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:16:40 -0700 Subject: Press request (South Florida) from my inbox Message-ID: <033801c78d20$b50f09c0$6501a8c0@NFORCE4> I got the following email earlier today: --- Hi, I'm a writer from the South Florida Sun-Sentinel working on a story about people who collect vintage computers. I'm looking to interview people from the South Florida area (Broward County especially, which includes Fort Lauderdale) and was wondering if you had any such people are your members and if you could ask them to contact me ASAP. [...] Thanks, Jamie Malernee Staff Writer South Florida Sun-Sentinel 954-356-4849 --- Jamie is looking specifically for collectors in the South Florida area to "localize" the story. Others have already been interviewed. Please give a call if you're interested! Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums From djg at pdp8.net Wed May 2 21:20:48 2007 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 22:20:48 -0400 Subject: PDP8/E schematics Message-ID: <200705030220.l432Km625137@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> >> I am looking for docs about my PDP8/E CPU. >> I found a maintainance manual ("volume 1" of ???) on bitsavers. >> But no schematic. >> >> So, who knows what documents I need and where to get them? > http://www.pdp8.net/query_docs/query.shtml Either browse the list or search on the card # >Try: > >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/ Actually this directory is probably the right one http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/omnibus/ >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 2 21:23:47 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 22:23:47 -0400 Subject: RSX-11 In-Reply-To: References: <6ce9428e28605192ddc31b4dfc46446f@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <463947B3.6030905@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:55 PM -0700 4/30/07, Scott Quinn wrote: > >> but somewhat cryptically also >> >> "EMULATOR shall mean software owned by Digital Equipment Corporation >> that emulates the operation of a PDP-11 processor and allows PDP-11 >> programs and operating systems to run on non-PDP-11 systems. >> >> 2 LICENSE GRANT >> >> MENTEC grants to CUSTOMER a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free >> license under MENTEC's INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS to use and copy >> the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY solely for personal, non-commercial uses in >> conjunction with the EMULATOR." >> >> So, in short, is this only valid for emulators in which DEC or it's >> successors in interest (HP?) own the copyright, or is it only valid >> for systems where DEC or (...) hold RTU licenses for a PDP-11 >> emulator on? If the prior, what is the connection to SIMH? If it is >> valid for currently obtainable emulators and (as it seems to at face >> value) include RSX-11, why no RSX-11 images? I suppose RSTS/E is the >> easy way out, (provided licensing is good), but RSX-11 has the >> advantages of some commonality with VMS (DCL). > > > Bob Supnik has stated that SIMH is still covered by this license, he > was a VP with DEC at the time he arranged for it. Furthermore all > indications from Mentec in the past have been that this is true. Based > on the inquiries I made about a month ago nothing has changed from the > Hobbyist point of view. > > At least one version of RSX-11M has been available for use under SIMH > in the past. Jerome Fine replies: Since my information is ONLY in respect of RT-11, how it applies to RSX-11 is not known. However, whenever the license for PDP-11 operating systems mentions RSX-11 (and a specific version at that, including all prior versions), V05.03 of RT-11 and all prior versions of RT-11 are also mentioned. Thus by inference, what applies to RT-11 may also apply to RSX-11 as well. What is VERY different about RSX-11 and RT-11 is that V05.03 of RT-11 (specifically the binary distribution) has been available via download from a number of sites for many years along with at least one site which also includes all prior versions (or at least as many different versions as could reasonably be found and verified to likely be as close as possible to the actual DEC release) of RT-11. I can't remember exactly any more, but at least 10 prior versions of RT-11 (prior to V05.03 from 1985) are available. There were also 11 later versions of RT-11 includIng: V05.04 V05.04A V05.04B v05.04C V05.04D V05.04E V05.04F V05.04G V05.05 V05.06 V05.07 On the other hand, it was initially VERY difficult, almost impossible, to obtain a copy of the allowed RSX-11 distribution and even at present this situation continues. Since there has, to my knowledge, been continuous access to V05.03 of RT-11 and the prior versions for over 5 years ever since Megan Gentry specifically made V05.03 available as a single downloadable image file, it seems extremely likely that Mentec has accepted that SIMH is totally acceptable as the DEC owned emulator even if there has been no official written confirmation of that status by Mentec. At least one acceptable version of RSTS/E also seems to be available, but I have no details. If you wish to know the details of the link for the file to be downloaded for the RT-11 versions: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/RT11DV10.ISO.zip Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 2 23:56:24 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 21:56:24 -0700 Subject: Floppy emulators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Check out Eric Ruthfus' SVD on his web page www.thesvd.com. Mention that it was me that pointed you to him. I've not talked with him for some time. Dwight >From: "Peter C. Wallace" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Floppy emulators >Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 16:15:25 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Is there anyone with experience doing hardware floppy emulation here? >I may have a project that could use some paid expertise in this area... > > > > > >Peter Wallace >Mesa Electronics _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From rickb at bensene.com Thu May 3 00:52:54 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 22:52:54 -0700 Subject: TNIX (Micropolis 1203 and "Board Bucket" systems) In-Reply-To: References: <4638D1E4.7080100@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at May 2, 7 11:01:08 am Message-ID: Tony wrote: > > The 8" winchester machines have a Micropolis 1203 drive with > the standard Micropolis controller board on top. The host > interface for that is not SASI (AFAIK), but it is documented > in the Micropolis documentation. So it may be possible ot > image that drive too. > Back in the day, I used to buy these drives at the Tektronix Country Store for pretty cheap...something like $35 or so. This was in the day when 5 1/4" ST-506 interface har disk drives were EXPENSIVE. In those days, I built my own computers, based on an internal Tektronix "development" platform called the "Board Bucket". These were a quite diverse, multi-CPU platform based on a common bus that had various CPU boards (6800, 6809, Z-80), and variou I/O boards (floppy interface, serial-parallel I/O board, RAM boards (dynamic and static), ROM boards (using 2708's), and even later things like ROM burners, Video Boards (I designed one based on the TI Graphics Chip used in the TI 9900 home computer), Modem boards (Bell 103), and various other custom boards. There was a "blank" prototyping board available for these systems. I did build an interface board for a Micropolis 1203, so I could use a hard disk on the "FLEX" 6809-based operating system. It was a pretty trivial parallel interface, with, IIRC, a line that controlled reading or writing from the onboard controller, and a "data or status/command" signal that told the controller where you are tell the controller whather you are reading or writing control commands, or data. It was an 8-bit data interface, parallel, with a strobe signal to read/write data to/from the controller. There were a couple of status signals that also came out to tell the computer the whether data was ready to be strobed out or pushed in. This was a long time ago, so my memory is hazy. The one thing that I do remember is that there was a weird little jumper block on the controller board that controlled something to do with the geometry of the disk as presented by the controller. It could specify the size of a sector...essentially, the drive could have a selection of sector sizes. As I remember, to get the 256-byte sectors that the FLEX operating system wanted, I had to figure out how to re-wire this jumper, as by default in the 8560's that these drives were used in, the sector size was either 512 or 1024 bytes/sector. Other than these drives being rather noisy, and requiring quite a bit of power, they were rock solid reliable, and very easy to interface to. They were NOT tolerant to shock, though. Bump the drive too hard while it was running, and they'd crash pretty easily. I wrote a driver for FLEX that made this drive appear as a number of logical drives, because FLEX had a limitation as to the number of sectors that a drive could have. It was pretty cool to have a system that had a "big" (I think that these were 30 Megabyte drives) hard disk on it in the day when most folks' machines were ucky to have a pair of 8" or 5 1/4" floppy drives. >From my recollection, "talking" to the Micropolis 1203 controller was very straight forward, and the controller was pretty smart, providing commands for low-level formatting the drive, standard "read" and "write" sector commands, as well as extended read/write commands that would read/write the sector header information, pretty robust status reporting, and pretty robust status/error reporting. It was similar to SASI, but "simpler", and as I recall it took me virtually no time at all to get one of the drives up and running on my system. I'm sure that if someone can find the technical docs for the 1203, it'd be a rather simple proposition to build a simple interface for a PC or even a small microcontroller) that could allow a drive to be imaged. My "system" also had two DSDD 5 1/4" floppy drives, and a "RAM Disk" that I made out of a slightly modified 64K RAM board that had a 256-byte "window" into the address space, and a parallel port that would select which "sector" would appear. Later, I bumped the capacity of the board by using 64K DRAMs instead of the stock 16K DRAM chips, so I had a 256K RAMDisk (really fast). Later, I built a SASI (purely I/O driven, no DMA) interface that I could hook up 5 1/4" hard disk drives to, using an early Xebec SASI to "ST-506" controller. I bought a very early Tandon 5MB 5 1/4" full-height ST-506 drive, and got it running on the system. I still have a number of the two types of Board Bucket chassis (nice aluminum chassis with a backplane board in the bottom, with card guides) ...there was one with just a backplane, and an external power supply that connected to the chassis by banana plugs. There was also a smaller backplane all self-contained with its own power supply. There was a ROM monitor that talked through one of the serial/parallel I/O boards (two serial ports and two parallel (Motorola 6821's, I believe) ports. The CPU boards varied a bit...some had ROM on board for the monitor, and some you had to put in a plug-in ROM board to host the monitor code. Some CPU's had TIL-311 displays on them to display the address and data bus, with a single step button that would allow you to step through the code, as in a simple front-panel, though not possible to load data or address. That was one board (a 6800-based board) as I recall that could be used for in-circuit emulation. I've also got a bunch of the boards, including RAM, ROM, I/O, floppy, my homebrewed SASI interface, the prototype of the video board and a "production" version (which included a real-time clock chip also), a couple of Bell 103 modems, a ROM blaster (I think it could program everything from 2708's through 2764's) and maybe even a few blank prototype boards. These things were cheap, because you could buy the bare boards through Tektronix Engineering Stock for <$20 or so, and buy the parts to stuff them at Tek's cost plus 5%, and put together some pretty capable systems for very little (compared to "commercial" minicomputers like Altair/IMSAI/Processor Technology/Tandy-Radio Shack/Digital Group/Polymorphic Systems/Smoke Signal Broadcasting, and SWTPC [among many others]) money. I even could get the folks on one of the flow-solder lines to run my stuff boards through the flow-solder machine, which really sped things up as opposed to hand-soldering everything, which I also did a lot of. I even built a "ROM" board using Dallas Semiconductor 32Kx8 NVRAMs for loading up dedicated applications into, and used a number of these machines for a very early home automation system that could control lighting (X-10), security system, weather monitoring (through a hacked Heathkit weather station), a voice-response (using a Votrax Chip, and a DTMF decoder IC hacked into one of the modem boards) system that one could use to remotely dial-in and check status of the system and command things to happen) as well as an IR interface that could command devices like the TV, VCR, Cable TV box, etc. I have a complete 6908-based system that I use from time to time for various little projects. It works great to this day. I sure had a lot of cheap fun (and great learning experiences) from those machines back in those days (early 1980's as I recall). I also have some old Tektronix code that I believe works under Utek that provides assemblers for the 6800 and 6809. The ROM monitor has a means by which the 2nd serial port on the I/O board could be hooked up to a "host" computer, and assembled absolute code from the assembler could be downloaded in to RAM pretty easily. Sorry to wander off-topic, but figured that there might be some interest in these old internal Tektronix "toys". Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Wed May 2 23:20:45 2007 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 21:20:45 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: Also came in an APL version. Lee Courtney Product Line Manager - Linux for Consumer Devices Wind River 500 Wind River Way Alameda, California 94501 Office: 510-749-2763 Cell: 650-704-3934 Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Billy Pettit > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:20 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. > > Al Kossow wrote: > > > > Found one in the CHM collection today. > > It is a "Datel 30". There are a few mentions of it on the > web, mostly saying it was a light-duty device that broke a lot. > > > ------------------------------- > > Billy asks: > > Wasn't Datel one of the first to offer timeshare services? > Sort of a precursor to the Internet? I remember Datel > advertising on TV about making stock market transactions in > your office. > > The model 33 was not the most popular device for that environment. > > Billy > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu May 3 01:35:27 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 23:35:27 -0700 Subject: RSX-11 In-Reply-To: <200705021652.l42GpVDR097241@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705021652.l42GpVDR097241@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <972aa64ef7a940413b8e4e68c9ba8a2f@valleyimplants.com> > Yes, check the licensing info for SIMh and a few others. While PDP-11 > OSs (RT, RSX and RSTS [it may not include all of those]) are made > available > for SIMs it is not for commercial use or operation on real hardware. > The > copyrights are still valid and some of the products are active. > > > Allison > One of my concerns was that the SIMH license seems a bit ambiguous as to whether or not it covers SIMH (and there was no authoritative or semi-authoritative opinions on the SIMH or Mentec websites). I've been e-mailing with someone and they have clarified that, yes, Mentec's correspondance/actions indicate that SIMH is still covered by the "Supnik license" even though it isn't a DEC product). Pity that there isn't an explanation on the SIMH website, but I suppose that Mentec doesn't want to throw money at explanations, and nobody else wants to pontificate in an "official" manner given the current state of the USA. Scott From cc at corti-net.de Thu May 3 03:05:15 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:05:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <4638D36A.2030105@bitsavers.org> References: <4638D36A.2030105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 May 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > I thought they were the same boards as used in the 980B > I'll check to see if I've put scans for the 980 versions > on line. At least some of the 980 documentation refers > to 960/980 I've checked what is online on bitsavers, it seems that the only common board is the DMA interface card. Everything else is completely different. The 960B as a CRU bus (like found in the later 990 and 9900 systems), the 980B has a "standard" parallel I/O bus, so I/O interface cards are not interchangable. Christian From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 3 03:20:04 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:20:04 +0200 Subject: TNIX In-Reply-To: References: <4638D1E4.7080100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20070503102004.03dfe943@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 2 May 2007 23:27:11 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > It is possible I have them, I will ahve to check. [...] > I know I got some disks with them, but I can't erememebr if any were > for TNIX That would be nice, thanks in advance. I already have a spare 11/73 CPU to replace the 11/23 CPU. I think this machine would be a nice exhibit for the next VCFe... Do you know how the 8" floppies are formated? (I have no clue about 8" floppy variants.) My one and only 8" floppy system is a RX02 compatible controler in one of my VAXen. It interfaces to a Shugart SA800 interface for 8" floppies. If the floppies are RX01 compatible (C/H/S=77/1/26, 128 byte/sector) I could use the VAX with the drive from the Tec machine to write images on blank disks. (The RX02 clone supports low level format.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cc at corti-net.de Thu May 3 06:29:21 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:29:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> References: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 May 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > I just checked the CHM archives, and we have a pretty complete > set of 960B hardware docs. I'll see about getting it scanned. That would be great! Christian From charlesmorris at hughes.net Thu May 3 09:19:18 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (charlesmorris at hughes.net) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 14:19:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? Message-ID: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> I've got a PDP-11/23+ with 4 Mb RAM, but only one RL02 and no software except an XXDP pack. Henk Gooijen helpfully made for me a (RT-11) bootable pack that is on the way (if the post offices between Europe and the US don't lose or destroy it). So I definitely want to make a backup copy. Is this possible to do with only one drive? Apparently you can't swap disks back and forth like the old DOS or CP/M systems. Henk thinks creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files but I don't know anything about RT-11. The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". Any thoughts? thanks Charles From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 3 09:40:41 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:40:41 -0400 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> References: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <200705031040.41762.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 03 May 2007 10:19, charlesmorris at hughes.net wrote: > The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, > but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". > > Any thoughts? Assuming that the new disk doesn't have any bad blocks in its bad block table that aren't on the original disk :), my first suggestion would be to write a small PDP11 assembly program to read a bunch of blocks from one pack, and write them out to another pack (with a lot of swapping). It'd be tedious, but you could hand assemble a program (or use macro11 on another system) and enter it in using ODT... but you'd be limited to reading and writing no more than about 55kB at a time, which would mean about 20 pack swaps. The other option I can think of, is that you could change the unit number on one of your RL02's, either by snapping fingers off the ready indicator, or (probably a better idea) sticking small plastic rods or similar into the holes where the fingers go in the ready lamp for the 2nd RL02, and use that. A little bit of googling or "ask-Tony" :) should help you figure out exactly how to trick the drive into being another unit number. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 3 09:49:49 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:49:49 -0400 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> References: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: On 5/3/07, charlesmorris at hughes.net wrote: > I've got a PDP-11/23+ with 4 Mb RAM, but only one RL02 and no software > except an XXDP pack. Henk Gooijen helpfully made for me a (RT-11) > bootable pack that is on the way (if the post offices between Europe > and the US don't lose or destroy it). So I definitely want to make a > backup copy. Sure. > Is this possible to do with only one drive? Apparently you can't swap > disks back and forth like the old DOS or CP/M systems. There certainly is no in-built facility to RT-11 to do a single-disk-swap as there was with many 8-bit micros. I suppose you could write a utility to do a disk copy in 3 swaps, but I am unaware of any such program. > Henk thinks > creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files but I don't know > anything about RT-11. That might work, but I don't think you can use RT-11 to write the system area when fiddling packs like that. If you had a different boot medium, floppy, say, you could treat the RL02 drive as a data volume, then it wouldn't matter. The RL02 just becomes another drive at that point. > The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, > but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". That should be easier to remedy than just about anything else. If you can get a '1' (or '2' or '3') or even a third '0' and modify it, that should work. Alternately, there's probably a way to override the switches from behind, or just unplug the switch board and construct and attach a functional replica that doesn't depend on pre-molded plugs. Another approach would be to pipe the contents of your RT-11 pack to the PC as a backup. VTserver should be able to do this for you. Below is a pointer to the 'readme'. Pay attention to the part about treading lightly around the last cylinder. It can cause problems to overwrite the bad block area. http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Tools/Tapes/Vtserver/ http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Tools/Tapes/Vtserver/vtreadme.html I haven't used vtserver in a long time, but I'm sure there are folks on the list who can share their experiences. -ethan From useddec at gmail.com Thu May 3 10:16:38 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:16:38 -0500 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> References: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <624966d60705030816n18a79846m689e93eb06de8456@mail.gmail.com> I can give you a "1" key or another key if that would help. Paul Anderson On 5/3/07, charlesmorris at hughes.net wrote: > > I've got a PDP-11/23+ with 4 Mb RAM, but only one RL02 and no software > except an XXDP pack. Henk Gooijen helpfully made for me a (RT-11) > bootable pack that is on the way (if the post offices between Europe > and the US don't lose or destroy it). So I definitely want to make a > backup copy. > > Is this possible to do with only one drive? Apparently you can't swap > disks back and forth like the old DOS or CP/M systems. Henk thinks > creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files but I don't know > anything about RT-11. > > The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, > but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". > > Any thoughts? > thanks > Charles > > > From andy.piercy at gmail.com Thu May 3 11:04:09 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 17:04:09 +0100 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? Message-ID: More disk copy questions.. Can you copy an entire disk using the UNIX dd command from a smaller disc to a larger one and retain the capacity of the larger drive? i.e. maybe create a partition on the larger drive which matches the smaller drive? Thanks, Andy. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu May 3 11:22:24 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 11:22:24 -0500 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463A0C40.6020707@mdrconsult.com> Andy Piercy wrote: > More disk copy questions.. > > Can you copy an entire disk using the UNIX dd command from a smaller > disc to > a larger one and retain the capacity of the larger drive? > > i.e. maybe create a partition on the larger drive which matches the smaller > drive? Not without other tools, at least on any OS I work with. dd overwrites the filesystem's index, superblock, etc, so even if the partition is bigger than the filesystem, you can't use it. Doc From dm561 at torfree.net Thu May 3 11:42:40 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:42:40 -0300 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd Message-ID: <01C78D88.EF38E360@MSE_D03> --------Original Messages: From: Doc Shipley Subject: Re: Unix disk copy using dd ? To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <463A0C40.6020707 at mdrconsult.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Andy Piercy wrote: > More disk copy questions.. > > Can you copy an entire disk using the UNIX dd command from a smaller > disc to > a larger one and retain the capacity of the larger drive? > > i.e. maybe create a partition on the larger drive which matches the smaller > drive? Not without other tools, at least on any OS I work with. dd overwrites the filesystem's index, superblock, etc, so even if the partition is bigger than the filesystem, you can't use it. Doc ------------Reply: Assuming you have a third disk or a spare partition on the larger drive, can't you tar the small disk > to a file there and then untar to the final disk/partition? m From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu May 3 12:46:11 2007 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <463A0C40.6020707@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Doc Shipley wrote: > > Can you copy an entire disk using the UNIX dd > command from a smaller > > disc to > > a larger one and retain the capacity of the larger > drive? > > Not without other tools, at least on any OS I > work with. dd > overwrites the filesystem's index, superblock, etc, > so even if the > partition is bigger than the filesystem, you can't > use it. dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to another (identical) one using dd; however the same transfer worked correctly under Linux. -Dave From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 3 09:51:06 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:51:06 +0100 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> References: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <1178203866.11230.0.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-03 at 14:19 +0000, charlesmorris at hughes.net wrote: > I've got a PDP-11/23+ with 4 Mb RAM, but only one RL02 and no software > except an XXDP pack. Henk Gooijen helpfully made for me a (RT-11) > bootable pack that is on the way (if the post offices between Europe > and the US don't lose or destroy it). So I definitely want to make a > backup copy. > > Is this possible to do with only one drive? Apparently you can't swap > disks back and forth like the old DOS or CP/M systems. Henk thinks > creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files but I don't know > anything about RT-11. > > The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, > but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". You could dump it over vtserver (very slow) and copy to the new pack. That's how I got XXDP onto a scratch pack. Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 3 13:01:56 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:01:56 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd In-Reply-To: <01C78D88.EF38E360@MSE_D03> References: <01C78D88.EF38E360@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <463A2394.5060605@gmail.com> M H Stein wrote: > Assuming you have a third disk or a spare partition on the larger drive, > can't you tar the small disk > to a file there and then untar to the final > disk/partition? You're assuming that the small disk the data is coming from contains a file system. And, if it does, it's more efficient to use a pipe instead of a tarfile. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 3 13:06:22 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 14:06:22 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <463A0C40.6020707@mdrconsult.com> <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/3/07, David Comley wrote: > dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics > baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to > transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to > another (identical) one using dd; however the same > transfer worked correctly under Linux. Hmm... that seems odd. I've worked with dd a lot, and it's pretty stupid. It does what you ask it to and pretty much not anything else. Could you have been having issues with the sd driver or with whatever device you were asking dd to copy to/from? It's not tough to get into situations where the device driver is doing things seemingly behind your back because of specifics of the minor number attached to the /dev/whatever device file and the baggage that implies. It's especially important with tape devices (rewind/no rewind, compression, etc.), but it's possible to have issues with using the wrong device name with disks. If I had to guess, the most likely place for a problem would be if the beginning of the device from dd's perspective (its "block 0") didn't translate to physical block 0 on the device due to the driver skipping over some part of the disk (a few blocks, a cylinder, etc) masked off for a disk label region or some other "reserved use". I'm not disputing that you had problems, I'm just trying to come up with a mechanism for how it happened. -ethan From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu May 3 13:13:50 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa Message-ID: Bakersfield, the armpit of California! Also, the location where about 1000 square feet of computer floor tiles are available from this guy: Greg Williams Barry Petroleum ggw at bry.com Concrete filled(!) tiles and support structure. If anyone's interested, contact him directly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 3 13:25:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 14:25:47 -0400 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/3/07, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Concrete filled(!) tiles and support structure. Ow! I thought my steel tiles were heavy (they are ;-) Is this a California Earthquake thing, or did someone just want a solid, solid floor? -ethan From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu May 3 13:35:46 2007 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:35:46 -0500 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have a datacenter in the chicago area built in the last couple of years, with concrete filled tiles. We have one built in the late 80's with steel tiles, we have one originally built in the 60's, with floor redone in the mid 80's, with wood-core tiles...all on the same college campus. -Bob >On 5/3/07, Sellam Ismail wrote: >>Concrete filled(!) tiles and support structure. > >Ow! I thought my steel tiles were heavy (they are ;-) > >Is this a California Earthquake thing, or did someone just want a >solid, solid floor? > >-ethan -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 3 14:01:48 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:01:48 -0400 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463A319C.7050104@gmail.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Bakersfield, the armpit of California! Also, the location where about > 1000 square feet of computer floor tiles are available from this guy: > > Greg Williams > Barry Petroleum > ggw at bry.com > > Concrete filled(!) tiles and support structure. > > If anyone's interested, contact him directly. I soooo with that was closer. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 3 14:05:31 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 12:05:31 -0700 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:35 PM -0500 5/3/07, Bob Brown wrote: >We have a datacenter in the chicago area built in the last couple of >years, with concrete filled tiles. We have one built in the late >80's with steel tiles, we have one originally built in the 60's, >with floor redone in the mid 80's, with wood-core tiles...all on the >same college campus. I wonder if it has something to do with the amount of weight that rolls across a computer room floor these days. We've several of the steel ones that are bowed, in a CR that's only about 6.5 years old. Though I would think Cement tiles would simply crack. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 3 14:02:23 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 20:02:23 +0100 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <200705031040.41762.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> <200705031040.41762.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <463A31BF.6050802@dunnington.plus.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 03 May 2007 10:19, charlesmorris at hughes.net wrote: >> The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, >> but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". > The other option I can think of, is that you could change the unit number > on one of your RL02's, either by snapping fingers off the ready > indicator, or (probably a better idea) sticking small plastic rods or > similar into the holes where the fingers go in the ready lamp for the > 2nd RL02, and use that. I've done that with matchsticks, so I know it works. You just need to know which of the "fingers" on the unit select to emulate. If you can't get a spare "1" indicator, I'll go and look at mine to see where the matchsticks would need to go. I eventually made a whole set of indicators (0...3) out of perspex. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu May 3 14:12:34 2007 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 12:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <845135.80458.qm@web30610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Fully concur with your comments below. After I posted this earlier I though back over what happened and I realized that it's probably not dd's fault but more likely to be some sort of oddball driver issue. I forget the exact symptom of the failure but I think it was along the lines of dd being unable to read enough blocks off the input device despite the math/geometry stuff working out correctly on paper. -Dave --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/3/07, David Comley > wrote: > > dd also seems to have some > implementation-specifics > > baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable > to > > transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to > > another (identical) one using dd; however the same > > transfer worked correctly under Linux. > > Hmm... that seems odd. I've worked with dd a lot, > and it's pretty > stupid. It does what you ask it to and pretty much > not anything else. > Could you have been having issues with the sd > driver or with whatever > device you were asking dd to copy to/from? It's not > tough to get into > situations where the device driver is doing things > seemingly behind > your back because of specifics of the minor number > attached to the > /dev/whatever device file and the baggage that > implies. It's > especially important with tape devices (rewind/no > rewind, compression, > etc.), but it's possible to have issues with using > the wrong device > name with disks. If I had to guess, the most likely > place for a > problem would be if the beginning of the device from > dd's perspective > (its "block 0") didn't translate to physical block 0 > on the device due > to the driver skipping over some part of the disk (a > few blocks, a > cylinder, etc) masked off for a disk label region or > some other > "reserved use". > > I'm not disputing that you had problems, I'm just > trying to come up > with a mechanism for how it happened. > > -ethan > From rcini at optonline.net Thu May 3 14:14:52 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:14:52 -0400 Subject: Hawthorne 68000 SBC In-Reply-To: <20070501203907.9258E69@resin10.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: I did some searching last night and I found my bound copy of TCJ issues 26 - 30 and there were a few Hawthorne articles in it that I'm going to scan. If you know of others, let me know. I have issues 20-30, 50-52 and 78-81. When I found TCJ, it was too early in my collecting career to recognize that I should have purchased the entire series of books...so I have quite a few holes in it. On 5/1/07 11:39 PM, "paulrsm at buckeye-express.com" wrote: > Rich, nice job with the Hawthorne SBC page. > > I have one request: please provide not just disk images, > but a ZIP archive containing the files from the disks. > > I also encourage you to scan and post any Hawthorne > articles from The Computer Journal. > > In return, I have an issue (or issues) of the 68-KNEWS > newsletter. I won't be back home for a few weeks, but > when I find them they are yours. > > -- > Paul Santa-Maria Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 3 14:23:29 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:23:29 -0400 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463A36B1.5030402@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:35 PM -0500 5/3/07, Bob Brown wrote: >> We have a datacenter in the chicago area built in the last couple of >> years, with concrete filled tiles. We have one built in the late 80's >> with steel tiles, we have one originally built in the 60's, with floor >> redone in the mid 80's, with wood-core tiles...all on the same college >> campus. > > I wonder if it has something to do with the amount of weight that rolls > across a computer room floor these days. We've several of the steel > ones that are bowed, in a CR that's only about 6.5 years old. Though I > would think Cement tiles would simply crack. I can verify that it takes quite a lot to crack a cement-filled floor tile. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 3 14:32:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:32:30 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> On May 3, 2007, at 1:46 PM, David Comley wrote: > dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics > baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to > transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to > another (identical) one using dd; however the same > transfer worked correctly under Linux. This is not dd, but the disk device drivers underlying OS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 3 14:33:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:33:12 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06698710-1A94-4FDB-A27C-1B995A4BA82F@neurotica.com> On May 3, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Andy Piercy wrote: > More disk copy questions.. > > Can you copy an entire disk using the UNIX dd command from a > smaller disc to > a larger one and retain the capacity of the larger drive? > > i.e. maybe create a partition on the larger drive which matches the > smaller > drive? Definitely not. dd does not understand filesystems, only bytes and blocks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 3 14:28:29 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:28:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <200705031040.41762.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at May 3, 7 10:40:41 am Message-ID: > The other option I can think of, is that you could change the unit number > on one of your RL02's, either by snapping fingers off the ready > indicator, or (probably a better idea) sticking small plastic rods or > similar into the holes where the fingers go in the ready lamp for the > 2nd RL02, and use that. > > A little bit of googling or "ask-Tony" :) should help you figure out > exactly how to trick the drive into being another unit number. >From what I remember, and you need to the RL printset to check (I will dig mine out if you're serious about wanting to do this), the RL's 'ready' lampholder has 4 internal switch contacts, which are opened/closed by the shape of the top and bottom edges of the 2 side pegs on the lamp cap. In the RL, only 2 of the contacts are used, as a binary encoding of the unit number.Oh yes, there's a fifth cotnact that detects there is a cap in place (and disables the drive if not). I wouldn't mess about with the lamp cpas themsleves, since any modifications are not easily reversed. What I would to is remove the front panel from the drive, remocve the switch/indicator PCB from that and do the changes there. Now, what I can't remember (as I said, I'll check the prints if you're serieous), is whether a closed contact is a '1' or a '0'. If it's the former, then the kludge is easy. Just solder a wire across the least-significant contact, and your drive 0 becomes drive 1. If it's the latter, then either cut the trace ot the least significant contact (so it appears open to the rest of the electronics), or remove the lamp cap, and solder a jumper across the 'cap present' contact, and across the most siginificant drive number conact. Doing it that way has the advantage that it'll be easy to undo the mods when you want to put the PDP8/a back together. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 3 14:20:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:20:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: TNIX (Micropolis 1203 and "Board Bucket" systems) In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at May 2, 7 10:52:54 pm Message-ID: > There was a "blank" prototyping board available for these systems. I > did build an interface board for a Micropolis 1203, so I could use a > hard disk on the "FLEX" 6809-based operating system. It was a pretty > trivial parallel interface, with, IIRC, a line that controlled reading > or writing from the onboard controller, and a "data or status/command" > signal that told the controller where you are tell the controller > whather you are reading or writing control commands, or data. > It was an 8-bit data interface, parallel, with a strobe signal to > read/write data to/from the controller. There were a couple of status There are 2 possible interfaces for the Micropolis 1203. The dare drive has a 50 pin connector, which is somewhat similar in concept to the SMD interface. There's an 8 bit parallel data bus with strobe lines, etc, to do things like head postiioning, and a raw data stream. There was a Micropolis controller board, the same physical size as the drive logic board, that could be scrrwed onto the drive. I think the host connector on that was also 50 pin, and it has the interface you're describing. This controller did the conversion between the 8-bit parallel data to the host and the bitstream to the drive. The Tektronix machine that startyed this thread used that controller (so presuanly it was also common on drives obtained from Tektronix surplus). The PERQ 2T1 (the onterh machine I have which uses this drive) doesn't. It has an ICL-designed 'DIB' (Disk Interface Board) that does the clock recoverry and MFM encoding/decodeing , and makes the host interface similar, but not idetocal to that on the SA4000 (14" WInchester) so that it could link to a PERQ I/O board > Other than these drives being rather noisy, and requiring quite a bit of > power, they were rock solid reliable, and very easy to interface to. I've had to fix a couple of electronic faults on them, particuarly in the head psitiuoner analogue section. The positioner coil drive amplifier is an LM379 (a number forever eteched in my brain), which was desigend as an stereo audio power amplifier. Here it's used a a full-bridge driver in the obvious way. The LM379 has the interesting feature that the bottom end of the output stage for each half of the chip is brought out to a separate pin on the package, and the Micropolis 1203 connects a low value resistor between that pin and gorund so as to be able to measure the positioner coil current (this is one of the feedback terms in the servo system). So most other stereo power amp ICs won't replace it. And the LM379 is very hard to find now. It was used as the deflection amplifier in the Vectrex, and I think other vector-based video games, but that's hardly a suitable source for spares. That chip failed in my PERQ's drive, and I was quoted well over \pounds 100.00 for an (untested!) replacement. AI then raided my junk box and found _one_ spare, which got my PERQ booting again, but what I do next time it failes I don't know. Probably design a replacement using a pair of mono audio amplifier chips. One one edge of the drive logic PCB there's a 34 pin header. THis is for a text box. I designed a version of that (it's pretty simple, a few toggle swtiches,, a few LEDs, and a couple of TTL chips). If the drive's microcotnrolelr detects a fault, said test box will display the error code. Of course you then need the appropraite pages of the service manaul to look up said code. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 3 14:37:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:37:01 -0500 Subject: Talking of floor tiles... Message-ID: <463A39DD.7080001@yahoo.co.uk> We could use such a floor in the UK at Bletchley should anyone have a line on one [1] that might become available. The ICL mainframe's going to have to sit on *something* and we're not quite sure what yet! [1] needs to be vaguely around 4m by 12m, but there's a bit of flexibility either way. I think 30cm high is about the max we can cope with though as we'd like to leave the suspended ceiling in place (and the ICL's I/O cabinets are full height racks) Have asked over on uk.comp.vintage, but I'm not sure how much readership overlap there is between there and here... cheers Jules From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 3 15:09:36 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2007, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Bakersfield, the armpit of California! Also, the location where about > 1000 square feet of computer floor tiles are available from this guy: > > Greg Williams > Barry Petroleum > ggw at bry.com > > Concrete filled(!) tiles and support structure. > > If anyone's interested, contact him directly. I live in Bakersfield and I know where this place is. If anyone wants me to do some local footwork, I'm at your service. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu May 3 15:23:22 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:23:22 -0500 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 3, 2007, at 1:46 PM, David Comley wrote: > >> dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics >> baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to >> transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to >> another (identical) one using dd; however the same >> transfer worked correctly under Linux. > > > This is not dd, but the disk device drivers underlying OS. More specifically, it's the Solaris volume manager, isn't it? I forget the specific incantation, but it is possible to tell Solaris "Forget about it" and treat a disk as a raw resource. It's probably a good thing for most users/workloads, but mostly Sun's volume manager just irritates me. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu May 3 15:28:01 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:28:01 -0500 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd In-Reply-To: <463A2394.5060605@gmail.com> References: <01C78D88.EF38E360@MSE_D03> <463A2394.5060605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <463A45D1.8000009@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > >> Assuming you have a third disk or a spare partition on the larger drive, >> can't you tar the small disk > to a file there and then untar to the >> final >> disk/partition? > > > You're assuming that the small disk the data is coming from contains a > file system. Enering pedant mode, even if the source disk has a filesystem, tar can't grab boot blocks, partition tables, extended attributes, etc. And various tar implementations have other nasty little warts. dd is about the dumbest** command on the planet, which is why I love it. Doc ** as in does what it does, does that thing only, and does that thing Very Fricking Well. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 3 15:57:17 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:57:17 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> On May 3, 2007, at 4:23 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics >>> baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to >>> transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to >>> another (identical) one using dd; however the same >>> transfer worked correctly under Linux. >> This is not dd, but the disk device drivers underlying OS. > > More specifically, it's the Solaris volume manager, isn't it? I > forget the specific incantation, but it is possible to tell Solaris > "Forget about it" and treat a disk as a raw resource. Nope, nothing at all to do with the volume manager. All it does is deal with things like automatically mounting filesystems when they come up, such as when a CDROM is inserted. The issue concerns partitioning and where "data" starts on the disk...and most importantly, whether or not that data includes the block containing the partition table. Traditionally, the "c" partition on a Unix system means "the whole disk" but unfortunately (from what I've seen) that doesn't include the block containing the partition table on some systems. > It's probably a good thing for most users/workloads, but mostly > Sun's volume manager just irritates me. Same here. Edit /etc/vold.conf to make it ignore the stuff you want it to. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu May 3 16:01:52 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:01:52 -0700 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463A4DC0.7030306@shiresoft.com> David Griffith wrote: > I live in Bakersfield and I know where this place is. If anyone wants me > to do some local footwork, I'm at your service. > Thanks. I've already contacted them and am making arrangements for the tiles. One of the issues is that each tile weighs about 40#! So total weight is going to be interesting! -- TTFN - Guy From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Thu May 3 16:05:48 2007 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:05:48 -0600 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <200705031702.l43H1T2u014160@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705031702.l43H1T2u014160@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <463A4EAC.6000806@rogerwilco.org> [excuse this second copy of my reply; worried that my first went into the Great Bit Bucket In The Sky] Charles said: >I've got a PDP-11/23+ with 4 Mb RAM, but only one RL02 and no software >except an XXDP pack. Henk Gooijen helpfully made for me a (RT-11) >bootable pack that is on the way (if the post offices between Europe >and the US don't lose or destroy it). So I definitely want to make a >backup copy. > >Is this possible to do with only one drive? Apparently you can't swap >disks back and forth like the old DOS or CP/M systems. Henk thinks >creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files but I don't know >anything about RT-11. > You will have very good success using Will Kranz' TU58 emulation on a PC as an intermediate store: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm He has a MSDOS flavor and a Linux flavor. I've used the MSDOS flavor as a way to image RL01s and RL02s for archival on other media (CDROM). Be sure to read his documentation about patching the DD.SYS driver (renaming it to DW.SYS) to allow the emulated TU58 to have the same capacity as your RL02 cartridge. Don't worry, it's not difficult and when I first did this myself I had sub-zero DEC / PDP-11 / RT-11 experience. While fairly slow (it is RS-232 serial, after all), the extra benefit your will enjoy using this method, is that you automatically will have a backup of the installation that Henk made for you and that you no doubt suffered some small expense to get. If you have any more questions about using Will's TU58 emulator, feel free to contact me directly. - Jared From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 3 17:11:27 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: <463A4DC0.7030306@shiresoft.com> References: <463A4DC0.7030306@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2007, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > I live in Bakersfield and I know where this place is. If anyone wants me > > to do some local footwork, I'm at your service. > > Thanks. I've already contacted them and am making arrangements for the > tiles. One of the issues is that each tile weighs about 40#! So total > weight is going to be interesting! A couple years ago I sold some cubicle dividers on Ebay for a local charity. The buyer sent out a tractor-trailer rig to get the 1000 or so pounds of stuff. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 3 17:20:47 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII Message-ID: I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read and installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. The rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint that this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to 24-bit addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" doesn't work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 3 18:58:11 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "May 3, 7 03:20:47 pm" Message-ID: <200705032358.l43NwBrQ011538@floodgap.com> > I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read and > installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. The > rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. > BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint that > this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to 24-bit > addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" doesn't > work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? Which Performa? Those ROMs may be too new for System 6. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From rcini at optonline.net Thu May 3 19:38:09 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 20:38:09 -0400 Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: <200705032358.l43NwBrQ011538@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I use Basilisk for System 7.5.3 and 8.0 machines such as the Quadra 700 and the Mac II series. For System 6, I use Mini vMac. I've used both of these programs on both the PC and an Intel Mac Mini and they work fine. On 5/3/07 7:58 PM, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: >> I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read and >> installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. The >> rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. >> BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint that >> this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to 24-bit >> addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" doesn't >> work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? > > Which Performa? Those ROMs may be too new for System 6. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From rickb at bensene.com Thu May 3 23:33:54 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 21:33:54 -0700 Subject: Micropolis Disk Drives (Was TNIX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony wrote: > There are 2 possible interfaces for the Micropolis 1203. > The bare drive has a 50 pin connector, which is somewhat similar in > concept to the SMD interface. There's an 8 bit parallel data bus with > strobe lines, etc, to do things like head postiioning, and a raw data > stream. > There was a Micropolis controller board, the same physical size as the > drive logic board, that could be scrrwed onto the drive. I think the host > connector on that was also 50 pin, and it has the interface you're > describing. This controller did the conversion between the 8-bit parallel > data to the host and the bitstream to the drive. > The Tektronix machine that started this thread used that controller (so > presumably it was also common on drives obtained from Tektronix surplus). Yes, the drives that I got my hands on (I also had an 8560 at one point running TNIX) all had the Micropolis "controller" board that was positioned over the top of the "bare drive" logic board. I probably had three or four of these things at one time, but over the years, they either died, or I gave them away to friends who had interested once I was able to afford another Micropolis drive, the 5 1/4" ST-506 interface 20MB drive (can't remember the model number). The 8" Micropolis drive was also used in the Tektronix Magnolia...a very early prototype workstation-class machine that used a bitmap display, and was based on Smalltalk as the native operating system. Tek (to my knowledge) never sold any of these machines, but quite a few of them were built as prototypes, and used in various areas of Tek as engineering workstations. The Magnolia was way ahead of its time. Had Tek had the marketing and sales skills to sell this thing as a computer, they could have grabbed the engineering computing workstation market before it even really existed. This was long before Sun or PERQ. It was more in the timeframe of the early Xerox PARC machines. In fact, some of the software engineers that developed the working environment for the Magnolia came from Xerox PARC. The 5 1/4" full-height Micropolis drives were the "standard" drive in the early Tektronix 6130 UTek machines, and I could get them at Tek cost plus 10%, making them reasonably affordable, as Tek purchased them in large volumes. These were interesting drives, because they had two platters in them. One surface had pre-recorded information used by the electronics for accurate head positioning. In the drive as it came from the factory, only two surfaces were used for data (for a total of three surfaces, two data, one servo). However, there was a head, and amplifier for the remaining surface. Each surface held 10 Megabytes, so the standard drive had a capacity of 20MB. There was a little flex circuit board that came out of the sealed HDA that terminated on a 2x4 square pin header that plugged into a socket on the drive logic board. On these drives, the two pins that went to the head/amplifier for the "unused" surface were simply cut off. We found that if we carefully desoldered the disfigured header, and soldered in a full 2x4 header, we could format these drives as 30MB drives, and they worked just fine. Sometimes when low-level formatting, there would be a few flaws on the third surface, but nothing major...resulting in only a slight reduction in capacity. I'm thinking that originally all of the drives were manufactured as 30MB drives, and that those that had some number of flaws in a certain surface would have that surface "disabled" by simply cutting off its pins to the main logic board. Apparently the drive electronics could tell which were "good" surfaces by those which had a signal riding on them, and make it all transparent to the ST-506 interface. A cheap way to make sellable (albeit lower-capacity) drives out of drives that failed QA testing as 30MB drives. These drives were pretty bulletproof, too. I still have one (modified as described above) in my Tektronix 6130, and it ran literally for something like 8 years straight. Then, I got my hands on some Sun machines, and the 6130 was put aside. However, about a year and a half ago, I had occasion to run into the 6130 while unpacking stuff from a storage unit, and I brought it home, hooked it up to a trusty Heathkit H19 terminal, and powered it up. It booted up right away. Not even a fsck required. I even remembered the root password! Did a full "dd" of the disk to /dev/null, and no read errors at all. I think I still have a couple of these drives stored away. I should drag them out and see if they still spin up. Probably could get them to talk to an old Adaptec ACB-4000 SCSI to ST-506 converter, and hook 'em up to a PeeCee with an Adaptec Single-Ended SCSI controller (I have a slew of ISA and PCI-bus HBAs) to see if they still work. I'd bet dimes to donuts that they will work just as good today as they did in the mid-'80's. -Rick From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 4 00:24:10 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 22:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I use Basilisk for System 7.5.3 and 8.0 machines such as the Quadra 700 and > the Mac II series. For System 6, I use Mini vMac. I've used both of these > programs on both the PC and an Intel Mac Mini and they work fine. What OS on a PC do you use? vMac's build system is atrocious. Mini vMac is taking some getting used to. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri May 4 00:53:49 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 06:53:49 +0100 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi All I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. No mention of pdp anything. As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around how RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they could help us poor pdp preservers. Rod From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri May 4 00:56:29 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 22:56:29 -0700 Subject: Magnolia memories was Re: Micropolis Disk Drives (Was TNIX) Message-ID: > The 8" Micropolis drive was also used in the Tektronix Magnolia...a very > early prototype workstation-class machine that used a bitmap display, > and was based on Smalltalk as the native operating system. Tek (to my > knowledge) never sold any of these machines, but quite a few of them > were built as prototypes, and used in various areas of Tek as > engineering workstations. The Magnolia was way ahead of its time. Had > Tek had the marketing and sales skills to sell this thing as a computer, > they could have grabbed the engineering computing workstation market > before it even really existed. This was long before Sun or PERQ. It > was more in the timeframe of the early Xerox PARC machines. In fact, > some of the software engineers that developed the working environment > for the Magnolia came from Xerox PARC. I had my hands on a Tek Magnolia once and even recognized it for what it was. Unfortunitely long before I knew of the list. And long before I realized that you wanted to save the very first models. I didn't get to play with it very long. We got it in with a mother load of Intel (from Intel) about 1992 at 911 NW Hoyt in PDX. the Magnolia looked like an engineering prototype, ugly box with no covers, cables all over.... A little squater than the Xerox 8010s it came in with. What I didn't recognise was the Alto that came in with the group. It was several years later that I saw a picture. It was such a funny Xerox. >From Intel were many of every early development systems, 800, 8000, II, III, & IV. What I would give for that mother load now...... > ago, I had occasion to run into the 6130 while unpacking stuff from a > storage unit, and I brought it home, hooked it up to a trusty Heathkit > H19 terminal, and powered it up. It booted up right away. Not even a > fsck required. I even remembered the root password! Did a full "dd" of > the disk to /dev/null, and no read errors at all. I think I still have > a couple of these drives stored away. One of the few Tek computers I never got my hands on, the 6130. Is there a museum or timeline of Tektronix Computers / test equiipment / video equipment in physical space or on the Web? I don't think Paul Pierce is collecting much Tektronix? Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 4 02:09:49 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 00:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: <200705032358.l43NwBrQ011538@floodgap.com> References: <200705032358.l43NwBrQ011538@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read and > > installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. The > > rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. > > BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint that > > this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to 24-bit > > addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" doesn't > > work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? > > Which Performa? Those ROMs may be too new for System 6. I don't know what sort of machine it came out of. The Mac Plus rom I tried is the vMac.rom commonly used with mini vmac. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri May 4 02:18:31 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:18:31 +0200 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883D9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: donderdag 3 mei 2007 16:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? > > > Henk thinks creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files > > but I don't know anything about RT-11. > > That might work, but I don't think you can use RT-11 to write > the system area when fiddling packs like that. If you had a > different boot medium, floppy, say, you could treat the RL02 > drive as a data volume, then it wouldn't matter. The RL02 > just becomes another drive at that point. > > -ethan Charles did not tell completely what I suggested, but since I am not sure how to do it either, I would like to know ... I also suggested the obvious ones, get the 2nd drive connected and do some kludge work on the READY/UNIT indicator/plug. Since Charles' 11/23+ has 4 Mb of memory ... I remember I once had a visitor (some 5 years go!) who showed me how to use the extra memory (core) in my 11/35 as a "RAM disk". I don't remember which RT11 command(s?) he used, but creating a RAM disk is definitely possible! So, if you copy the system files that you need to run RT11 to the RAM disk *and* you can boot RT11 from that RAM disk, you can use the rest of the RAM disk space to copy a few files from the RL02 disk, swap the RL02 disk and copy the files from RAM to disk, etc. You need the RAM disk for RT11 too, because you can not simply swap the RL02 disk, because RT11 is running from it! Ethan did point that out. So, here is the question I have. After creating the RAM disk, and copying the necessary system files to the RAM disk, is it possible to *boot* from the RAM disk, like .BOOT dev:RT11FB.SYS ? And what would "dev" be? I also would like to know what commands create the RAM disk! thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From andy.piercy at gmail.com Fri May 4 03:39:48 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:39:48 +0100 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: So basically you can only use dd to copy to a disk of the same size. OK so here is the real issue: I have a faulty Unis system disk that is 142 Mb, it had the sticky bumpers issue, now repaired but I want to copy the OS and apps to a second replacement disk, this is a 442 Mb drive. There seems to be a bug with the standalone floppies in that the restore program will not restore dump tapes created and verified in single user mode. bummer! I only have the Unix OS distribution floppies and not the applications. So can I rebuild a working disk by.. 1) Use the floppies to build a new operating system on to the 442Mb drive. 2) Mount the faulty 144 Mb drive with all of the apps etc. 3) Copy using cp, tar, cpio, all of the contents from the faulty drive to the new drive and over write all of the os, will this work? Unix should be in memory so maybe the system wont crash? (would cp -r be the best command here) 4) Remake the root \Unix file from all of the newly copied data / files 5) Reboot the system..... and hope! Any ideas on this approach? Or I could create a second partition and copy the files from the faulty drive to the it? and copy over the contents, but basically the same as above because the app files are all over the file system..... Or how about creating a complete cpio disk image to cart tape? Ta, Andy. On 03/05/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On May 3, 2007, at 4:23 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>> dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics > >>> baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to > >>> transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to > >>> another (identical) one using dd; however the same > >>> transfer worked correctly under Linux. > >> This is not dd, but the disk device drivers underlying OS. > > > > More specifically, it's the Solaris volume manager, isn't it? I > > forget the specific incantation, but it is possible to tell Solaris > > "Forget aboit" and treat a disk as a raw resource. > > Nope, nothing at all to do with the volume manager. All it does > is deal with things like automatically mounting filesystems when they > come up, such as when a CDROM is inserted. > > The issue concerns partitioning and where "data" starts on the > disk...and most importantly, whether or not that data includes the > block containing the partition table. Traditionally, the "c" > partition on a Unix system means "the whole disk" but unfortunately > (from what I've seen) that doesn't include the block containing the > partition table on some systems. > > > It's probably a good thing for most users/workloads, but mostly > > Sun's volume manager just irritates me. > > Same here. Edit /etc/vold.conf to make it ignore the stuff you > want it to. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From andy.piercy at gmail.com Fri May 4 03:39:48 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:39:48 +0100 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: So basically you can only use dd to copy to a disk of the same size. OK so here is the real issue: I have a faulty Unis system disk that is 142 Mb, it had the sticky bumpers issue, now repaired but I want to copy the OS and apps to a second replacement disk, this is a 442 Mb drive. There seems to be a bug with the standalone floppies in that the restore program will not restore dump tapes created and verified in single user mode. bummer! I only have the Unix OS distribution floppies and not the applications. So can I rebuild a working disk by.. 1) Use the floppies to build a new operating system on to the 442Mb drive. 2) Mount the faulty 144 Mb drive with all of the apps etc. 3) Copy using cp, tar, cpio, all of the contents from the faulty drive to the new drive and over write all of the os, will this work? Unix should be in memory so maybe the system wont crash? (would cp -r be the best command here) 4) Remake the root \Unix file from all of the newly copied data / files 5) Reboot the system..... and hope! Any ideas on this approach? Or I could create a second partition and copy the files from the faulty drive to the it? and copy over the contents, but basically the same as above because the app files are all over the file system..... Or how about creating a complete cpio disk image to cart tape? Ta, Andy. On 03/05/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On May 3, 2007, at 4:23 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>> dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics > >>> baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to > >>> transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to > >>> another (identical) one using dd; however the same > >>> transfer worked correctly under Linux. > >> This is not dd, but the disk device drivers underlying OS. > > > > More specifically, it's the Solaris volume manager, isn't it? I > > forget the specific incantation, but it is possible to tell Solaris > > "Forget aboit" and treat a disk as a raw resource. > > Nope, nothing at all to do with the volume manager. All it does > is deal with things like automatically mounting filesystems when they > come up, such as when a CDROM is inserted. > > The issue concerns partitioning and where "data" starts on the > disk...and most importantly, whether or not that data includes the > block containing the partition table. Traditionally, the "c" > partition on a Unix system means "the whole disk" but unfortunately > (from what I've seen) that doesn't include the block containing the > partition table on some systems. > > > It's probably a good thing for most users/workloads, but mostly > > Sun's volume manager just irritates me. > > Same here. Edit /etc/vold.conf to make it ignore the stuff you > want it to. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri May 4 04:22:41 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 10:22:41 +0100 Subject: WTD: Catweasel raw track dumps Message-ID: <463AFB61.9010901@philpem.me.uk> Hi, A few of you have probably heard about my little project - the portable floppy disc raw-reader/writer. Through a bit of spare-time coding I've got all the basic elements of the reading side of the interface done. That is to say, according to the simulator, my hardware design can detect MFM sync markers, index pulses and track index sequences on hard-sectored floppies. Unfortunately I'm not going to have time to do the PCB layouts and such for another few weeks at the least, which leads me to my next problem... Rather than halt all development due to lack of time, I'd like to take a look at some of the software side of things. What I need are some raw data dumps i.e. if you're using a Catweasel, the data in the CW's RAM after the track read command completed. The 'testhist' utility from Tim Mann's CW2DMK pack can do this, with the command: testhist port drive track side clock [file] The documentation for testhist explains how to use it - port is the I/O port for ISA Catweasels or card ID number (starting at 0) for PCI Catweasels. Drive is the drive number (starting at 0), track and side are equally obvious, clock is the clock rate (0 for SD/DD, 1 for HD). The 'file' parameter is the name of the output file that What I'm after are the raw files (and testhist output if possible) for: - FM encoding, IBM format (PC or similar) - MFM encoding, uPD765 (PC format), 3.5" DD - MFM encoding, uPD765 (PC format), 3.5" HD - MFM encoding, Amiga format, 3.5" What I'm wanting to do is try out a neat little read-compensation algorithm I found that seems to make it easier to decode discs where the FM/MFM timing thresholds are a little ambiguous (the histogram shows a lot of bleed/smear along the bottom). An image of the whole disc would be useful, else a few random tracks would be just as good (and probably easier to FTP/email). Are there any kind souls out there with a Catweasel card and CW2DMK (or a similar tool) that can provide this data? Thanks, -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri May 4 05:55:02 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into a Chevy Venture Message-ID: <617466.15459.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I managed to accquire more hardware... This time in the form of a couple CDC hard drives - one 9775 (Fixed media, 650mb) and one 9766 (300mb removeable). I also wound up with an 11/84 and a couple RL02's and one and a half RA80's. (my first Unibus 11, and my first removable pack drives - yay!) I'm very excited - this hardware is all new to me, and very different from what I already have. The 11/84 is much "beefier" physically than my wimpy little 11/73, and I've never owned freestanding hard drives. But - I digress. I had to drive about 950 miles round trip to pick these up. Truck rental is very expensive. I drive a Toyota Camry. So, I borrowed my father's minivan, a Chevy Venture. I've moved all manner of heavy hardware, racks, printers, etc in it, and figured that it would be fine for the task. Getting the stuff in was pretty easy. The CDC drives were slightly bigger than I had envisioned, but they fit. We loaded it with a ramp and a loading dock, and I had two people helping me, so I didn't fully appreciate just how heavy the CDC drives were. The PDP-11 rack was a 5 foot rack that was a simple "tip and slide", and some loose rack mountable stuffs stacked easily next to it. At this point, I had the van completely crammed - the passenger seat was pushed forward and angled forward as far as it would go, with the two CDC drives behind the seats, then the PDP rack on the passsenger side in the back, and stuff stacked behind the other drive on the drivers side. Some disk packs were seat belted into the passenger seat. The van rode really low, but was still driveable, albiet more "sluggish", and I had to top up one of the tires before driving back. I drove the route back in one shot - no stops for anything. I didn't get home until late, and only brought in the disk packs. It took me the better part of a week to figure out how to get the CDC drives *out* of the van. I was able to get the PDP-11 out with little difficulty. It's just a rack and some loose stuff. No problems there. But those CDC drives were so heavy that I couldn't even tilt them much in the van, and they's sunken into the carpet and weren't able to roll, not to mention the holes in the floor where the seats normally latch into. I found the operators manual for the CDC 9775 (BZ7Ex) on bitsavers - it lists the specs for the drive - weight 639 pounds! Oh, good. At least I think the 9766 is lighter. A little. It took a few days to get friends with time to help me, but we managed to get the drives out of the van yesterday night. I'll spare you the gory details, but I removed the power supplies from both drives first, as well as the doors and panels. When moving these, heavy is an understatement. Now I just need to get them into the basement. So... now does anyone have a scan of the service or installation manual for a 9775? I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... -Ian From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri May 4 06:35:29 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 13:35:29 +0200 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevy Venture In-Reply-To: <617466.15459.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883DE@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus > Sent: vrijdag 4 mei 2007 12:55 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC > drives into aChevy Venture > > Well, I managed to accquire more hardware... This time in the > form of a couple CDC hard drives - one 9775 (Fixed media, > 650mb) and one 9766 (300mb removeable). > I also wound up with an 11/84 and a couple RL02's and one and > a half RA80's. (my first Unibus 11, and my first removable > pack drives - yay!) I'm very excited - this hardware is all > new to me, and very different from what I already have. The > 11/84 is much "beefier" > physically than my wimpy little 11/73, and I've never owned > freestanding hard drives. But - I digress. > > [...snip...] Yeah, freestanding drives are nice. I have three RK07, two RM03 and an RM80 and a TU80 ... they take up quite some space! But cool :-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 4 09:13:41 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 10:13:41 -0400 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into a Chevy Venture In-Reply-To: <617466.15459.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <617466.15459.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463B3F95.1010007@atarimuseum.com> Hi Ian, Yeah, I had a similar situation. A paid a friend of mine who used to run a Video Arcade Pickup/Delivery Route up and down the East Coast. So he picked up a 9766 for me and put it into his Suburban. Now he was lucky at the pickup as they had the equipment to lift the drive system up and into the back of his SUV. Now on my end, we had to figure out how to get that 500LB dishwasher sized drive the heck out of his car without: Dropping and Damaging it. Dropping and killing one of us under its crushing weight. We ended up getting some steel 8' car ramps, put a moving blanket onto the top begining, slide the drive outward and onto the blanket and then gradually slide it down the ramp to the end. I got a 2X4 and we put it across the bottom of both ramps under the base of the drive unit, braced it with out feet and slowly tilted the drive upwards and got it onto its casters. Whole thing took a painful and scary 5-10 minutes to do, very unnerving and makes you truly respect and mini/mainframe gear. Next step.... its now staged up in my garage after being in storage for a few years. I'm hiring a moving company to take it up to the 2nd floor office and move it in their cause I ain't even thinking of trying to do that or risk asking any friends to help cause somebody will get killed if we slip, so let the moving guys do it.... they can always hire replacements ;-) When you are ready to get your 9766 up and running, let me know I have an alignment pak if you need to borrow it. I also have a spare Emulex Qbus card too. Curt Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, I managed to accquire more hardware... This time > in the form of a couple CDC hard drives - one 9775 > (Fixed media, 650mb) and one 9766 (300mb removeable). > I also wound up with an 11/84 and a couple RL02's and > one and a half RA80's. (my first Unibus 11, and my > first removable pack drives - yay!) I'm very excited - > this hardware is all new to me, and very different > from what I already have. The 11/84 is much "beefier" > physically than my wimpy little 11/73, and I've never > owned freestanding hard drives. But - I digress. > > I had to drive about 950 miles round trip to pick > these up. Truck rental is very expensive. I drive a > Toyota Camry. So, I borrowed my father's minivan, a > Chevy Venture. I've moved all manner of heavy > hardware, racks, printers, etc in it, and figured that > it would be fine for the task. Getting the stuff in > was pretty easy. The CDC drives were slightly bigger > than I had envisioned, but they fit. We loaded it with > a ramp and a loading dock, and I had two people > helping me, so I didn't fully appreciate just how > heavy the CDC drives were. The PDP-11 rack was a 5 > foot rack that was a simple "tip and slide", and some > loose rack mountable stuffs stacked easily next to it. > At this point, I had the van completely crammed - the > passenger seat was pushed forward and angled forward > as far as it would go, with the two CDC drives behind > the seats, then the PDP rack on the passsenger side in > the back, and stuff stacked behind the other drive on > the drivers side. Some disk packs were seat belted > into the passenger seat. > > The van rode really low, but was still driveable, > albiet more "sluggish", and I had to top up one of the > tires before driving back. I drove the route back in > one shot - no stops for anything. I didn't get home > until late, and only brought in the disk packs. > > It took me the better part of a week to figure out how > to get the CDC drives *out* of the van. I was able to > get the PDP-11 out with little difficulty. It's just a > rack and some loose stuff. No problems there. But > those CDC drives were so heavy that I couldn't even > tilt them much in the van, and they's sunken into the > carpet and weren't able to roll, not to mention the > holes in the floor where the seats normally latch > into. I found the operators manual for the CDC 9775 > (BZ7Ex) on bitsavers - it lists the specs for the > drive - weight 639 pounds! Oh, good. At least I think > the 9766 is lighter. A little. > > It took a few days to get friends with time to help > me, but we managed to get the drives out of the van > yesterday night. I'll spare you the gory details, but > I removed the power supplies from both drives first, > as well as the doors and panels. When moving these, > heavy is an understatement. Now I just need to get > them into the basement. > > So... now does anyone have a scan of the service or > installation manual for a 9775? > > I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in > and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... > > -Ian > > From dm561 at torfree.net Fri May 4 09:04:36 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 11:04:36 -0300 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd Message-ID: <01C78E3C.22F4D0C0@MSE_D03> Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:28:01 -0500 From: Doc Shipley Subject: Re: Unix disk copy using dd Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > >> Assuming you have a third disk or a spare partition on the larger drive, >> can't you tar the small disk > to a file there and then untar to the >> final >> disk/partition? > > > You're assuming that the small disk the data is coming from contains a > file system. > And, if it does, it's more efficient to use a pipe instead of a tarfile. >Peace... Sridhar -------------- Mike: I did indeed assume a filesystem; under what circumstances would a Unix hard disk not have a file system? And what do you mean specifically by "use a pipe"? Example? If you don't need an archive copy couldn't you just copy the boot file and cp the root? My experience with Unix is pretty limited, but this is how I archive and copy systems with Cromix; the tar file is copied to a PC and zipped, and unzipped and restored if/when needed. If there's a more efficient way, I'm definitely interested. ========= Doc wrote: > Enering pedant mode, even if the source disk has a filesystem, tar can't grab boot blocks, partition tables, extended attributes, etc. And various tar implementations have other nasty little warts. ------------- Mike: Granted, you'd have to create the boot block on the new drive, but I thought the whole point was to _not_ copy the partition table since you're moving to a larger drive? In my Cromix experience at least, which attributes are retained seems to be a function of the version of tar (or ftar) and the options selected. ======= > dd is about the dumbest** command on the planet, which is why I love it. > > Doc ------------- Mike: Ditto, but how would you use it in this case? m From dm561 at torfree.net Fri May 4 09:12:55 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 11:12:55 -0300 Subject: IMI HDs (was Micropolis Disk Drives) Message-ID: <01C78E3D.48317AE0@MSE_D03> Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 21:33:54 -0700 From: "Rick Bensene" Subject: Re: Micropolis Disk Drives (Was TNIX) >Tony wrote: >> There are 2 possible interfaces for the Micropolis 1203. >> The bare drive has a 50 pin connector, which is somewhat similar in >> concept to the SMD interface. There's an 8 bit parallel data bus with >> strobe lines, etc, to do things like head postiioning, and a raw data >> stream. ----------- Speaking of unusual HD I/Fs, did anyone other than IMI ever use their 34-pin interface? mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 4 09:15:42 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 10:15:42 -0400 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture Message-ID: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture > From: Mr Ian Primus > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... > >-Ian My favorite was moving 18 microVAX3100s, 10 storage boxes(BA42), 5 TLZ04s, 3 uVAX2000, 14 terminals (vt320), three printers(LA100ro) and three boxes of cables. In one trip using my '72 Toyota pickup. For laughs I had it weighed and it was 1204 pounds of hardware in a half ton pickup. It was full and it took hours to load it and more hours to unload it plus the 420 mile round trip. Did it twice as that was only part of the haul. However the best move I was part of was a bunch of DEC System20s fortunately the people organizing that move had a 16ft truck and access to all the loading platforms and dollys needed. Very heavy stuff and requires a bit of foreknowledge to move. Those little details like seperating cabinets and raising the feet so the casters roll and the like. The last really big move I was involved with was helping Megan move a bunch of larger PDP11 and PDP8 systems from a home to her storage. A liftgate truck made that possible. Allison From Moriamez.jc at wanadoo.fr Fri May 4 09:38:58 2007 From: Moriamez.jc at wanadoo.fr (Moriamez.jc) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:38:58 +0200 Subject: Emulex P4000 Terminal servers - End of lifed - Free software! Message-ID: <000501c78e59$f3796040$0800a8c0@asus> Hello, I live in France and I am very happy seeing your message on P4000 servers end of lifed I have 2*emulex p2516 and the software is end of lifed, do you know what can i do ? thanks for all Dr Moriamez Lille France Geoff Roberts geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Jul 23 19:45:46 CDT 2000 a.. Previous message: Scope use... b.. Next message: Vax 6000 Ram and/or CPU Cards wanted in Texas. c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a note to all. I have an Emulex Peformance 4000 Terminal Server I got at auction. It came without software, and initial inquiries some time back indicated that the software needed to be purchased from Emulex. Recently I inquired again of Emulex regarding this, and was informed that all Terminal/communications servers had been end of lifed, and was given details on where to download the Performance 4000 software. Thought this might be of interest to others out there who might have one of these stuck on a shelf somewhere. I have the boot file if you don't want to have to get it from Emulex. (The P4K works good too!) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe at tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri May 4 10:45:23 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 12:45:23 -0300 Subject: Mentec References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <053a01c78e63$6b8a9820$f0fea8c0@alpha> >As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around how >RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have >not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they could >help us poor pdp preservers. I doubt they would release it for free, being a company and have paid some money for these rights. But if you want to give a try, why not a formal letter bringing the stuff up to the knowledge of mentec's owners/directors explaining that there are a lot of hobbists looking to be right and this even helps their sales with all the homebrew development it brings (an example is spare time gizmos, who make hardware for PDP computers which keep them working). From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 4 12:08:35 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 10:08:35 -0700 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <463B6893.8020805@bitsavers.org> > But if you want to give a try, why not a formal > letter bringing the stuff up to the knowledge of mentec's owners/directors Read the discussions on this subject in alt.sys.pdp11 It sounds like Zane (maybe Tim Shoppa) have been in contact with them recently, so there is no need for yet another set of people to be involved. As I understand it, they have no interest in offering a low cost license no matter how many people ask about it. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri May 4 12:21:49 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 13:21:49 -0400 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <463B336D0200003700004AC1@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Al Kossow wrote: > It sounds like Zane (maybe Tim Shoppa) have been in > contact with them recently, so there is no need for yet > another set of people to be involved. If "Recently" is "2000", then yes, I worked extensively with Mentec to make three sets of hobbyist CD's (RT-11, RSX-11, RSTS/E) using my archives and their archives to get bootable kits for emulators. > As I understand it, they have no interest in offering a > low cost license no matter how many people ask about it. Internally, there was interest, and I discussed it with several at Mentec in the 1996-2001 timeframe as I worked with them on other projects, and it got as far as them having a web page with pictures of the CD's I made for them. But no, not all the legal barriers were jumped, so it never really happened. I don't think anyone truly understands the legal barriers that Mentec faces. They do not own all the stuff free and clear to do with as they wish. In the late 90's, they could not sell a copy of any PDP-11 OS unless they also sold DEC's printed manuals with it, and they were having extreme troubles getting DEC's printed manuals from DEC's print shop. The folks in Mentec who were most enthusiastic about it were really nice, energetic people. I don't have any sore feelings about the work I did back then (I had a blast) but I don't have as much interest in the subject as I did ten years ago. Being out at the CHM last year rekindled it a little... but there's no shortage of truly redistributable and very-few-condition other stuff that I'm worrying about now. Tim. From evan at snarc.net Fri May 4 13:19:24 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 14:19:24 -0400 Subject: Recent Trenton show Message-ID: <003501c78e78$befaddc0$6401a8c0@evan> >>> the best knock down drag out brawl between me and E.K. That is NOT true. In reality, Chris Keegan (aka "chris m") approached our user group booth, opened his mouth, and thereby illustrated why we long ago banned him from the group. I won't get into specifics. But if I were dumb enough to fight anyone, it wouldn't be this dude: he might attack with his "puters" and "stuph". - Evan From James at jdfogg.com Fri May 4 13:40:31 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 14:40:31 -0400 Subject: Hosstraders reborn Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256D8B@sbs.jdfogg.com> There used to be a New England ham radio show known as the "hosstraders" flea market, or the Deerfield show. It had morphed into a radio / computer flea market. There is a new annual ham radio / computer flea market show at the Deerfield facility this weekend. If anyone wants specifics drop me an email. James - "I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle" From trag at io.com Fri May 4 13:45:29 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 13:45:29 -0500 Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: <200705040613.l446CHtr027277@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705040613.l446CHtr027277@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:58:11 -0700 (PDT) >From: Cameron Kaiser >> I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read and >> installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. The >> rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. >> BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint that >> this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to 24-bit >> addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" doesn't >> work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? > >Which Performa? Those ROMs may be too new for System 6. To elaborate a bit on Cameron's point... System 6 requires 24 bit addressing on the host machine. The first Macs were based on the 68000 which only has 24 address bits. When they added the Mac II and SE/30 to the line-up they switched to the 68020 and 68030 which have 32 address bits, but the OS was still operating in a 24 bit address space. So, in order to run System 6 you need hardware which can translate to 24 bit addresses. Apple included the feature of a choice of 24 bit or 32 bit addressing modes in early Macs, but abandoned it somewhere in the middle of the Quadra (68040) line-up. So, for example, the Quadra 605 can do both 24 bit and 32 bit addressing, but the Quadra 63x family cannot. My guess is that the Quadra 650 does not include support for 24 bit addressing and neither does the performa you used. This would definitely be true of any Performa 63x, or later PowerPC Performas. So, you most likely need a ROM image from an older machine. Also, even if 24 bit addressing is supported in the emulated, ROM imaged machine, Apple dropped support for OS 6 somewhere along the way in their hardware/firmware. I suspect that regardless of the 24 bit/32 bit issue, the Q650 will not run anything earlier than some flavor of OS 7. I may be misremembering, but that's how I would bet. You may want to check a website such as everymac.com, because I believe it lists the OS's supported by each Mac model. Jeff Walther From ohh at drizzle.com Fri May 4 14:24:57 2007 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 12:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into a Chevy Venture In-Reply-To: <617466.15459.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mr Ian Primus wrote, in part: > Well, I managed to accquire more hardware... This time > in the form of a couple CDC hard drives - one 9775 > (Fixed media, 650mb) and one 9766 (300mb removeable). > I also wound up with an 11/84 and a couple RL02's and > one and a half RA80's. (my first Unibus 11, and my > first removable pack drives - yay!) Wow! Congratulations! It sounds like fun, although the move did sound like a challenge. :) > I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in > and out of vehicles... Once, when I was younger and stupider. A PDP-8/I, in the 6' rack, packed into... (drum roll) ... a Ford Pinto hatchback. :) With the software, the boxes of 3-ring binders, and the books. Oh, and did I mention the ASR-33 Teletype? :) In _one_ trip, of course, because I didn't want to take any chances on any of it getting away while we were off moving part of it. And, of course, there were _two_ of us in the car for the trip. ...Don't ask me how we did it. I don't think I could answer. I _do_ remember having the passenger seat against my back and the dashboard against my chest, and I specifically remember telling Dave if he made any sudden stops he was going to have to pull the rack out of my torso afterwards. Simply put, that was something I think I'd only be stupid enough to try in my youth. O'course that assumption may be challenged if I ever find myself faced with a pedestal-mount PDP-11 and, say, a moped. :) :) -O.- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 4 14:40:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 15:40:56 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd In-Reply-To: <01C78E3C.22F4D0C0@MSE_D03> References: <01C78E3C.22F4D0C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On May 4, 2007, at 10:04 AM, M H Stein wrote: > I did indeed assume a filesystem; under what circumstances would a > Unix > hard disk not have a file system? One example is the use of a raw partition for, say, a database. This is not uncommon in Oracle installations, for example. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 4 14:51:32 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 14:51:32 -0500 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture In-Reply-To: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> > > From: Mr Ian Primus > > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in > >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... > > > >-Ian My largest move in the smallest vehicle was 16 Sparcstations (4,5,10 variety) + a couple boxes of cables creatively crammed, tetris-style, into the trunk of an '84 Mercedes 240D. It wasn't until I got home that I realized the frame was rubbing the tires when I drove :) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 4 14:53:09 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 12:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unix disk copy using dd In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "May 4, 7 03:40:56 pm" Message-ID: <200705041953.l44Jr9XF015408@floodgap.com> > > I did indeed assume a filesystem; under what circumstances would a > > Unix hard disk not have a file system? > > One example is the use of a raw partition for, say, a database. > This is not uncommon in Oracle installations, for example. Informix does this also. It has a whole management subsystem for its "raw" dataspaces. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: The moon is in Venus' house. This will make no difference. -------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 4 14:55:48 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 12:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: from Jeff Walther at "May 4, 7 01:45:29 pm" Message-ID: <200705041955.l44Jtmdp015510@floodgap.com> > > Which Performa? Those ROMs may be too new for System 6. > > To elaborate a bit on Cameron's point... [...] > My guess is that the Quadra 650 does not include support for 24 bit > addressing and neither does the performa you used. This would > definitely be true of any Performa 63x, or later PowerPC Performas. Right, exactly -- sorry if that wasn't clear. > Also, even if 24 bit addressing is supported in the emulated, ROM > imaged machine, Apple dropped support for OS 6 somewhere along the > way in their hardware/firmware. I suspect that regardless of the 24 > bit/32 bit issue, the Q650 will not run anything earlier than some > flavor of OS 7. I may be misremembering, but that's how I would > bet. You may want to check a website such as everymac.com, because > I believe it lists the OS's supported by each Mac model. The Q650 definitely needs an enabler for 7.1 and (I think) 7.5. I think it's directly supported by 7.6 but I'd have to check my support information. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why, I'd horsewhip you if I had a horse! -- Groucho Marx ------------------- From paul at frixxon.co.uk Fri May 4 14:59:23 2007 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 20:59:23 +0100 Subject: What became of GRI Computer Corporation? Message-ID: <463B909B.2050605@frixxon.co.uk> I have an email address at the bottom of every page of Manx, my catalogue of computer manuals, and an invitation to people to send me questions or comments. I expect people to ask questions about the catalogue, but instead I usually receive requests from far-flung countries to quote for supplying spare parts for their ancient hardware. Ho hum. But today I received a question from someone who believes that my humble catalogue is the online presence of the mighty Manx Corporation. The email is reproduced below. Google has been no assistance in providing any answers. Surely someone here knows what became of GRI Computer Corporation? I'll pass on any responses. --quote-- I have some stocks (100 shares) that were purchased in 1972 for G.R.I. Computer Corp. When searching for information regarding this company and whether or not it still exists - I end up being redirected to this page for the Manx Corporation. Do you happen to know if G.R.I was purchased by Manx or how I might go about researching the value for these stocks? Any help is appreciated. --endquote-- -- Paul for the mighty Manx Corporation From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 4 15:00:58 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 15:00:58 -0500 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <463B90FA.70701@yahoo.co.uk> Andy Piercy wrote: > I only have the Unix OS distribution floppies and not the applications. > > So can I rebuild a working disk by.. > > 1) Use the floppies to build a new operating system on to the 442Mb drive. > > 2) Mount the faulty 144 Mb drive with all of the apps etc. > > 3) Copy using cp, tar, cpio, all of the contents from the faulty drive to > the new drive and over write > all of the os, will this work? I think I'd do it something like: 1) 'dd' the small drive to temporary storage on a Linux box (or whatever) "just in case" 2) Boot the system with the larger disk in and do an install from floppy. 3) Reboot the system with the smaller drive fitted as a second disk. 4) Use 'find', 'diff' etc. to work out differences between the two and copy files across from the small disk accordingly. If the small drive goes bang during that process you've always got the Linux raw backup which can be put onto any old drive (raw) and booted from (I'd suggest using a sacrificial drive to *test* your backup as step 1.5 above, incidentally :-) I can't remember what system it is now (or if you even said), but the important thing to do is generally not to overwrite any boot information (which on most systems also means not overwriting / moving the kernel). Providing the system can execute the boot code, locate and start the kernel the the filesystem driver(s) should take over and be able to find all the other files on the disk. cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 4 15:12:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 16:12:41 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd In-Reply-To: <200705041953.l44Jr9XF015408@floodgap.com> References: <200705041953.l44Jr9XF015408@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <463B93B9.4010900@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I did indeed assume a filesystem; under what circumstances would a >>> Unix hard disk not have a file system? >> One example is the use of a raw partition for, say, a database. >> This is not uncommon in Oracle installations, for example. > > Informix does this also. It has a whole management subsystem for its > "raw" dataspaces. So do PostgreSQL, DB2 and many others. It's a fairly common feature. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 4 15:17:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:17:01 -0400 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> References: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: Mr Ian Primus > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) > >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... My three largest non-truck moves were probably a 6' racked PDP-8/L w/ASR-33 in a standard American 1970s station wagon, an 11/750 in a mini-van (which I unloaded solo, somehow), and a pair of H-960 racks and two PDP-11/34s plus RL02s, plus a MINC-11, plus docs, plus crates of floppies, etc., in a Microbus. The Microbus took a little tweaking to get the second 960 in the back, but it all fit nice and tidy for the ride home. -ethan From dm561 at torfree.net Fri May 4 14:27:58 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:27:58 -0300 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 45, Issue 7 Message-ID: <01C78E69.63CF78C0@MSE_D03> ----------Original Message: Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:39:48 +0100 From: "Andy Piercy" Subject: Re: Unix disk copy using dd ? So basically you can only use dd to copy to a disk of the same size. OK so here is the real issue: I have a faulty Unis system disk that is 142 Mb, it had the sticky bumpers issue, now repaired but I want to copy the OS and apps to a second replacement disk, this is a 442 Mb drive. ----------Reply: Perhaps I misunderstood the problem earlier; when you say faulty but repaired, do you mean that you can read the disk but the file system is corrupted, or is the disk in fact bootable & runnable? mike From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 4 15:44:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 13:44:59 -0700 Subject: What became of GRI Computer Corporation? In-Reply-To: <463B909B.2050605@frixxon.co.uk> References: <463B909B.2050605@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <463B38DB.4935.1DDA47A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2007 at 20:59, Paul Williams wrote: > Surely someone here knows what became of GRI Computer Corporation? I'll > pass on any responses. Only because I have a curious interest in MOVE architectures, do I believe the answer to this one is that whatever's left of GRI is currently owned by Analog Devices. Saul Dinman would have the most authoritative answer on this one, however--I belive he's still alive and kicking... Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri May 4 15:50:54 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 13:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: That horrible computer foam Message-ID: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed that some pieces of equipment like printers and the like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, squshy material that does not spring back. It also crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, along with the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry goo. On the CDC drives I just picked up, the entire inside of them is covered in this foam, some of it is starting to come off, or has stuck to cables and such inside. A couple smaller chunks of it literally fell off one part of the cover, the glue only holding the particular particles of the foam to which it was attached, and the rest of the foam falling away. What is the best thing to do about this, especially in something as sensitive as a disk drive? Should I remove it? What's the best method? Is there something I can use to replace it? Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. Any ideas? Thanks! -Ian From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 4 16:09:26 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 17:09:26 -0400 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, > there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. > I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what > I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what > will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk > from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. The best thing to do with that foam is to scrape as much as you can off manually, since many of the solvents that will dissolve that gunk can damage paint and plastic. As for getting IBM goop off your hands, I use Fast Orange. The orange oil and pumice tends to do the job. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 4 16:21:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 14:21:58 -0700 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463B4186.1715.1DFC23B5@cclist.sydex.com> I've found that plain old detergent and warm water applied with a scrub brush does an adequate job at getting the decayed foam out of cabinet interiors (or any other place where water won't damage things). The worst thing IMOHO, to use is mineral spirits. The result is lots of sticky black gunk. Really a hideous mess. After I'm done with the water, if there's any adhesive left on the surface, I'll then use mineral spirits to remove it. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 4 16:24:04 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 14:24:04 -0700 Subject: Surely someone here knows what became of GRI Computer Corporation? Message-ID: <463BA474.3040206@bitsavers.org> Looooooooooooooooooong gone. One of the founders was Saul Denman, creator of the PDP8/S John Bordynuik contacted him years ago while researching the history of the 8/S great.. I see he has let pdp8.com croak. Info may be saved at archive.org From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri May 4 16:25:06 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 22:25:06 +0100 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> Message-ID: Another couple of nasties about to (or already have done) damage your collectables are the rubber rollers in tape drives and backup batteries. Dave Caroline From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri May 4 16:55:49 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 17:55:49 -0400 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883D9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883D9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <463BABE5.7010700@compsys.to> >Gooijen, Henk wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >>[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks >>Sent: donderdag 3 mei 2007 16:50 >>To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>Subject: Re: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? >> >> >> >>>Henk thinks creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files >>>but I don't know anything about RT-11. >>> >>> >>That might work, but I don't think you can use RT-11 to write >>the system area when fiddling packs like that. If you had a >>different boot medium, floppy, say, you could treat the RL02 >>drive as a data volume, then it wouldn't matter. The RL02 >>just becomes another drive at that point. >> >>-ethan >> >> > >Charles did not tell completely what I suggested, but since >I am not sure how to do it either, I would like to know ... >I also suggested the obvious ones, get the 2nd drive connected >and do some kludge work on the READY/UNIT indicator/plug. > >Since Charles' 11/23+ has 4 Mb of memory ... I remember I once >had a visitor (some 5 years go!) who showed me how to use the >extra memory (core) in my 11/35 as a "RAM disk". >I don't remember which RT11 command(s?) he used, but creating >a RAM disk is definitely possible! So, if you copy the system >files that you need to run RT11 to the RAM disk *and* you can >boot RT11 from that RAM disk, you can use the rest of the RAM >disk space to copy a few files from the RL02 disk, swap the RL02 >disk and copy the files from RAM to disk, etc. >You need the RAM disk for RT11 too, because you can not simply >swap the RL02 disk, because RT11 is running from it! >Ethan did point that out. > >So, here is the question I have. After creating the RAM disk, >and copying the necessary system files to the RAM disk, is it >possible to *boot* from the RAM disk, like .BOOT dev:RT11FB.SYS ? >And what would "dev" be? I also would like to know what commands >create the RAM disk > Jerome Fine replies: I have been busy with family for the whole week. I quick answer. The ram disk can be over 7000 blocks and is called VM0: and uses either VM.SYS under RT11FB.SYS or VMX.SYS under RT11XM.SYS (if you want to minimize usage, use only one or the other). That probably leaves more than sufficient space for an RT-11 binary distribution if you know how to set up an LD: (logical disk). If you don't, ask some more questions! Basically, just INIT VM:, copy the minimum files to VM: and BOOT VM:RT11XM - you don't need to COPY/BOOT VM:RT11XM.SYS VM: after which you can set up an LD:, etc. and copy the distribution RL02 to the LD: followed by making a duplicate back to a third scratch pack. I strongly recommend that you don't ever write on the distribution pack. Ask more RT-11 questions if you need additional instructions. It really is very easy with a 4 MByte memory under RT-11 to set up the needed VM: of a sufficient size and have only a single RL02 drive. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri May 4 16:58:34 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:58:34 -0300 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into a Chevy Venture References: Message-ID: <05f501c78e97$8c909540$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Once, when I was younger and stupider. A PDP-8/I, in the 6' rack, packed > into... (drum roll) ... a Ford Pinto hatchback. :) Why these funny and happy histories doesn't happen in Brazil... :o( Greetz Alexandre (Why did I left that 11/750? Because it was almost 20 years ago. Bummer.) From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 4 17:01:13 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 18:01:13 -0400 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463BAD29.3020603@atarimuseum.com> Ian, Strip it all out, clean down the surfaces and finish off with a alcohol wipe down, apply fresh replacement of the foam. Don't leave any of the original in the device, that stuff is just trouble waiting to happen after so many years. CUrt Mr Ian Primus wrote: > As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed > that some pieces of equipment like printers and the > like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most > likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam > to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, > squshy material that does not spring back. It also > crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, along with > the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry > goo. > > On the CDC drives I just picked up, the entire inside > of them is covered in this foam, some of it is > starting to come off, or has stuck to cables and such > inside. A couple smaller chunks of it literally fell > off one part of the cover, the glue only holding the > particular particles of the foam to which it was > attached, and the rest of the foam falling away. > > What is the best thing to do about this, especially in > something as sensitive as a disk drive? Should I > remove it? What's the best method? Is there something > I can use to replace it? > > Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, > there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. > I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what > I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what > will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk > from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks! > > -Ian > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 4 17:04:12 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 18:04:12 -0400 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <463B4186.1715.1DFC23B5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463B4186.1715.1DFC23B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463BADDC.7000401@atarimuseum.com> You have to be careful with mineral wash type fluids and paint, generally it is okay enough for quick clean off applications, but some paints react to it if you leave it on for more then a minute and can cause the paint to lift and flak off a few months later, I found this out the hard way on a few cabinets. If you don't mind repainting panels, then some good old WD40 will remove just about anything ;-) Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've found that plain old detergent and warm water applied with a > scrub brush does an adequate job at getting the decayed foam out of > cabinet interiors (or any other place where water won't damage > things). > > The worst thing IMOHO, to use is mineral spirits. The result is lots > of sticky black gunk. Really a hideous mess. > > After I'm done with the water, if there's any adhesive left on the > surface, I'll then use mineral spirits to remove it. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 4 17:08:08 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 18:08:08 -0400 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> Yeah, no kidding.... In video arcade machines - games like Pole Position boards all had the WORST design "feature" --- the boards are mounting to the inside side of the cabinet and the PCB layout has the battery and the top center of the board which over course eventually deteriorated, burst open and oozes battery acid to all of the adjacent components and traces. That's something many of us don't really discuss, using caution when handling older equipment/boards that may still contain original NiCads, lead acid and just plain old Alkaline batteries in them. Dangerous is that might still "pop" or be actively leaking. Curt Dave Caroline wrote: > Another couple of nasties about to (or already have done) damage your > collectables are the rubber rollers in tape drives and backup > batteries. > > Dave Caroline > From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 4 17:13:39 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:13:39 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: References: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730705041513j2ff4144kaa0c327d831b00f3@mail.gmail.com> Just bought my vendor ticket and made my hotel res (a bit far away, unfortunately, but that's what I get for waiting so long.) I'll be in the black Honda Element, IL plates, selling some really useless junk if anyone wants to say "hey." -j -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri May 4 17:56:45 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 15:56:45 -0700 Subject: That horrible computer foam Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: On the CDC drives I just picked up, the entire inside of them is covered in this foam, some of it is starting to come off, or has stuck to cables and such inside. A couple smaller chunks of it literally fell off one part of the cover, the glue only holding the particular particles of the foam to which it was attached, and the rest of the foam falling away. What is the best thing to do about this, especially in something as sensitive as a disk drive? Should I remove it? What's the best method? Is there something I can use to replace it? Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. Any ideas? Thanks! -Ian -------------------------------------- Billy responds: The foam was originally for acoustic dampening. It was a dense foam without much memory. Over time it does break down into a hideous mess. The original life of the foam was specified at 5 years! I've not had much luck taking in off with the modern solvents. This is one of the times I really miss Trichloroethylene. It would really clean this stuff up. I've used GooGone with some luck. Let it soak and it peels away. There is usually a thin clear plastic film between the glue and the foam. The more stubborn glues sometimes respond to acetone. Try a really diluted type first, say fingernail polish remover, to see that it doesn't remove the paint too. There are several options to clean up a panel. 1. The easiest is clean up as much as you can and glue a new sheet of foam over the mess. You should be able to buy panels of acoustic foam in hardware stores. 2. Remove it and leave it off. But it is lots of work to get it all off. 3. Do the best clean up you can and then spray paint with a thick rubberized paint. This seals the crumbling foam and holds it place. No matter what you do, you are in for a messy stinky time. When the foam breaks down, it goes everywhere. Be sure to vacuum every place you can. Where it won't come out with a vacuum, use air pressure to blow it out - done outside the house of course. Good luck. Billy From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 4 18:02:15 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <003501c78e78$befaddc0$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <790078.84132.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Evan...why don't you concentrate on replying to my offlist e-mails in a substantive manner, instead of trying to create more drama on this list. And that post of mine was an obvious joke. Everyone knew it from the get go. --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> the best knock down drag out brawl between me > and E.K. > > That is NOT true. In reality, Chris Keegan (aka > "chris m") approached > our user group booth, opened his mouth, and thereby > illustrated why we > long ago banned him from the group. > > I won't get into specifics. But if I were dumb > enough to fight anyone, > it wouldn't be this dude: he might attack with his > "puters" and "stuph". > > - Evan > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 4 18:03:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hosstraders reborn In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256D8B@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <538329.69141.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> I thought there was a general flea market by a similar name in the Derry, NH area. No? --- James Fogg wrote: > There used to be a New England ham radio show known > as the "hosstraders" > flea market, or the Deerfield show. It had morphed > into a radio / > computer flea market. > > There is a new annual ham radio / computer flea > market show at the > Deerfield facility this weekend. If anyone wants > specifics drop me an > email. > > > James - > "I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my > lifestyle" > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rcini at optonline.net Fri May 4 18:11:46 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 19:11:46 -0400 Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've actually used it on a native PC running both Win2k and XP *and* I use it as a native OSX application (a Mac version exists for it). I do remember the PC version of the old vMac was a bit rocky but the "Mini vMac" seems to be done by a different team and works well. On 5/4/07 1:24 AM, "David Griffith" wrote: > On Thu, 3 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> I use Basilisk for System 7.5.3 and 8.0 machines such as the Quadra 700 and >> the Mac II series. For System 6, I use Mini vMac. I've used both of these >> programs on both the PC and an Intel Mac Mini and they work fine. > > What OS on a PC do you use? vMac's build system is atrocious. Mini vMac > is taking some getting used to. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 4 18:26:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 16:26:07 -0700 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <463B5E9F.6890.1E6DCF02@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2007 at 15:56, Billy Pettit wrote: > 1. The easiest is clean up as much as you can and glue a new sheet of foam > over the mess. You should be able to buy panels of acoustic foam in > hardware stores. But won't this simply push the same problem out a few more years before you're looking at it again? I think I asked at one time if a good thick felt or sheet cork might do a good-enough job of deadening sound. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri May 4 18:27:22 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:27:22 -0700 Subject: Recent Trenton show Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5AD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chris M wrote: And that post of mine was an obvious joke. Everyone knew it from the get go. --- Billy responds: I didn't. Maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake, but I have trouble deciphering your messages. The humor in this one went right over my head. Billy From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 4 18:35:15 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 May 2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed that some pieces of > equipment like printers and the like, contain a lot of this awful foam > stuff, most likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam to > break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, squshy material that > does not spring back. It also crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, > along with the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry goo. Ugh. That stuff is notorious for causing trouble with older synthesizers as well, especially Moogs. It was often went on top of the slider pots with the actuators poking through slits. The idea was to keep dust out of the pots. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From marvin at west.net Fri May 4 18:49:59 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 16:49:59 -0700 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast Message-ID: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> If anyone knows the spaces where they will be selling (parking), post it here and we can go and harass each other :). My guess is we won't know until the week before. Last year, Patrick Finnigan (sp?) was there and down about 100 yards from where I was. I got a chance to meet a number of others on this list and it is really great to put names with faces! If possible, why not plan a dinner get-together on Saturday night for the ClassicCmp group! Anyone interested? I'll be there too in an easy to recognize blue Mazda van ... it has a set of piano keys on each side and back of the van along with "Schwendtner Piano Service". If anyone is into foxhunting, I've been asked to say a few words at that forum so that will be fun. I'm also planning on trying to get an informal transmitter hunting dinner going for Friday night. If anyone here is blind or sight impaired, there will be a blind ARDF event on Sunday ... see http://www.ardfusa.com for details ... and I'll be there too with a friend who will be competing. FYI, I called the Days Inn in Miamisburg earlier this week to make reservations and they still had rooms available ... didn't ask how much :), and it is only about 5 miles or so from Hara (as I recall.) Marvin, KE6HTS > From: "Jason T" > Just bought my vendor ticket and made my hotel res (a bit far away, > unfortunately, but that's what I get for waiting so long.) > > I'll be in the black Honda Element, IL plates, selling some really > useless junk if anyone wants to say "hey." From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 4 18:53:12 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5AD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <474250.41594.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Billy Pettit wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > > > And that post of mine was an obvious joke. Everyone > knew it from the get go. > > --- > > Billy responds: > > I didn't. Maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake, > but I have trouble > deciphering your messages. The humor in this one > went right over my head. > > Billy It was more intended for those who are familiar with *the group* Billy, like Rich. IIRC it was a response to his post. Let's leave it alone oi ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From dm561 at torfree.net Fri May 4 17:57:51 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 19:57:51 -0300 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd Message-ID: <01C78E86.9ABD2F40@mse-d03> On May 4, 2007, at 10:04 AM, M H Stein wrote: > I did indeed assume a filesystem; under what circumstances would a > Unix hard disk not have a file system? --------------- From: Dave McGuire One example is the use of a raw partition for, say, a database. This is not uncommon in Oracle installations, for example. From: Cameron Kaiser Informix does this also. It has a whole management subsystem for its "raw" dataspaces. From: Sridhar Ayengar So do PostgreSQL, DB2 and many others. It's a fairly common feature. --------------- Well, yes; in fact I used to use Informix and still have disks & docs that I've been meaning to archive and/or re-install some day, but if I were asking how to copy a data partition I think I'd call it an Informix disk and not a Unix disk, since that would certainly have a bearing on the how-to. However, now that I re-read the header I can see that he could have meant "copy a disk using Unix" instead of "copy a Unix disk" (which is what I assumed he meant). What would life be without ambiguity... Now, back to Andy, the original poster: did your question get answered? m From evan at snarc.net Fri May 4 19:05:32 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 20:05:32 -0400 Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <790078.84132.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01c78ea9$19f87900$6401a8c0@evan> >>> why don't you concentrate on replying to my offlist e-mails Because none of them ever deserved a reply. Conversely, I don't appreciate being libeled. -----Original Message----- From: Chris M [mailto:chrism3667 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Recent Trenton show Evan...why don't you concentrate on replying to my offlist e-mails in a substantive manner, instead of trying to create more drama on this list. And that post of mine was an obvious joke. Everyone knew it from the get go. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 4 19:14:34 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <001e01c78ea9$19f87900$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <937402.89361.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> why don't you concentrate on replying to my > offlist e-mails > > Because none of them ever deserved a reply. > Conversely, I don't > appreciate being libeled. uhuh. The simple facts are bothersome I take it. And you were never libeled, show evidence to support that if you're sure it's the case. And if I have any inkling as to what you're referring to, keep in mind I have ALL the correspondence. Again you could have responded offlist. You're well known here (and other places) for propagating so much juvenile drama. I really think it's enough. So grow up. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rcini at optonline.net Fri May 4 19:26:04 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 20:26:04 -0400 Subject: More Hawthorne articles posted Message-ID: All: This evening I posted a few articles on the Hawthorne TinyGiant 68000 that appeared in The Computer Journal issues 27, 29, 30 and 31. Enjoy. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From evan at snarc.net Fri May 4 19:27:54 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 20:27:54 -0400 Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <937402.89361.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000201c78eac$395f1440$6401a8c0@evan> >>> You're well known here (and other places) for propagating so much juvenile drama. Heh. That's pretty funny coming from YOU of all people. You always "hint" at things like this. Several times you said, "Lots of other people hate you Evan, it's not just me" ... but you never named anyone ... so either you're a coward, or (more likely) you're just pulling it out of your ass. -----Original Message----- From: Chris M [mailto:chrism3667 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 8:15 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Recent Trenton show --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> why don't you concentrate on replying to my > offlist e-mails > > Because none of them ever deserved a reply. > Conversely, I don't > appreciate being libeled. uhuh. The simple facts are bothersome I take it. And you were never libeled, show evidence to support that if you're sure it's the case. And if I have any inkling as to what you're referring to, keep in mind I have ALL the correspondence. Again you could have responded offlist. You're well known here (and other places) for propagating so much juvenile drama. I really think it's enough. So grow up. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 4 19:43:51 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <000201c78eac$395f1440$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <737244.46398.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> You're well known here (and other places) for > propagating so much > juvenile drama. > > Heh. That's pretty funny coming from YOU of all > people. > > You always "hint" at things like this. Several > times you said, "Lots of > other people hate you Evan, it's not just me" Never, NEVER did any such words leave my mouth. Or my fingers (as in an e-mail, letter, graven tablets, etc...). Never transmitted them via morse code. Neither by smoke signals... Never said anything even remotely close. > but you never named > anyone ... so either you're a coward, or (more > likely) you're just > pulling it out of your ass. Well I am a coward in one sense. I'm too afraid to pull anything out of my arse, being that I'm likely to have tremendous difficulty extracting my own arm from said crevace. But I never did utter those words, and you know it. Never even thought them in fact. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From evan at snarc.net Fri May 4 19:54:20 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 20:54:20 -0400 Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <737244.46398.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000501c78eaf$ea600210$6401a8c0@evan> >>> I'm too afraid to pull anything out of my arse, being that I'm likely to have tremendous difficulty extracting my own arm from said crevace. Next time you try that, fish around for your brain. From dj.taylor at starpower.net Fri May 4 20:09:03 2007 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 21:09:03 -0400 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.co m> References: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.1.20070504210735.01f22db8@pop.starpower.net> At 03:51 PM 5/4/2007, you wrote: >> > From: Mr Ian Primus >> > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in >> >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... >> > >> >-Ian > >My largest move in the smallest vehicle was 16 Sparcstations (4,5,10 >variety) + a couple boxes of cables creatively crammed, tetris-style, >into the trunk of an '84 Mercedes 240D. It wasn't until I got home >that I realized the frame was rubbing the tires when I drove :) This topic is very important to 'hobbyist' machinists. Take a look at some of the moving experiences at http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/ Doug From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri May 4 20:19:46 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:19:46 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 45, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <200705040445.l444ihBM026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705040445.l444ihBM026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3782fd5b2026525add5e13ca0abd0388@valleyimplants.com> > From: David Griffith > Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read > and > installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. > The > rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. > BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint > that > this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to > 24-bit > addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" > doesn't > work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? > As has been said, 040 ROMS are too new for System 6, as are most Performa ROMs. If a Plus won't run, try to find a IIci to get ROM dumps. System 6 runs on almost all II series Macs (not on IIvx/vi, though- but those are rare). The IIci is quite common, which is why I suggested it (also 32-bit-clean if you should want to run System 7) (but you could use II, IIx, IIcx, SE/30, IIsi, IIfx also). From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri May 4 20:32:08 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:32:08 -0700 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 06:53:49 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Subject: Mentec > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: > <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED1 at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi All > I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the > rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they > seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site > that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. No > mention of pdp anything. > > As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around > how > RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have > not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they > could > help us poor pdp preservers. > > Rod > Questions come in clusters, don't they. I'll answer this, since several people were kind enough to patiently explain it to me when I asked the same (VFAQ, but nothing listed in one place). Mentec is still around, although it looks like the PDP-11 division website is not up right now. They did make RT-11, RSX-11, and RSTS/E available for people to use in a _non-commercial_ environment under SIMH. Images for RT-11 and RSTS/E (which does have DCL now, I was operating under old information) are available from the SIMH website. I'm not sure if the RSTS/E distribution includes the RSX runtime or not. Sadly for hobbyists, the license does not extend to true hardware, only the SIMH emulator. It seems that Mentec was looking to have an expanded hobbyist program, but it was not economically viable and/or the attitude of some hobbyists was a bit off-putting. No official reason was given, but the rumors are as above. :(. 2.11BSD and v7 are available freely, though. I believe I have gotten this correct. Scott From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri May 4 20:35:38 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:35:38 -0700 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd? Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:39:48 +0100 > From: "Andy Piercy" > Subject: Re: Unix disk copy using dd ? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > So basically you can only use dd to copy to a disk of the same size. > I have successfully used dd to copy a disk onto another disk of a larger size. The difference between the original disk and the new disk is unused space, but you can run the host partitioner and change that (or, if it's a newer filesystem like XFS, JFS, etc. you can extend onto the unused space). P.S. - realized that my new system for replying to a digest left several messages quite probably without any subject. My apologies. Scott From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 4 21:06:10 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 21:06:10 -0500 Subject: dec & vax stuff found....mostly manuals.... most of this is available Message-ID: <00e101c78eb9$f3cd23f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Below is a list of stuff I got in the mail today. Someone didn't want it to get thrown away and I offered to pay shipping costs to get it in to collectors hands. Little did I know it was going to be $150. So I'm definitely entertaining offers on any of the items below to recoup my costs. I also just want to make sure this stuff gets to collectors. Condition - most of this stuff is in unusually good condition. Many of the dec handbooks look almost new. I probably want to keep the 11/34 printset and the unibus extender. With regards to the manuals, there are some real gems in the list - note the GT40 manuals, the 11/70 handbook, and the 68000 programming card. Let me know if there is interest. Jay --------- DEC handbooks microcomputer processor handbook 1979-80 2 microcomputers and memories 1981 2 microcomputers and memories 1982 3 microcomputer interfaces handbook 1980 2 pdp11 processor handbook pdp11/04/24/34a/44/70 PDP-11 micro/pdp-11 handbook 1983-1984 microcomputer processors 1978-1979 pdp11 peripherals handbook 1976 pdp11 peripherals handbook programming & interfacing 1973-1974 pdp11 peripherals and interfacing handbook 1972 pdp11 04/05/10/35/40/45 processor handbook 1975-1976 communications handbook 1981-82 terminals and communications handbook 1980 pdp11/70 processor handbook 1977-78 vax hardware handbook 1980-81 vax systems hardware handbook - unibus systems (vax-11/725/730/750/780/785/782, 8600/8650) Misc Books IC Op-Amp cookbook second edition, walter jung (sams) Small manuals orange minireference book RSX-11M (version 4.2) blue minireference book RSX-11M (version 3.2) PDP-11 RT-11 pocket guide Fluke 8024A operator's guide card pdp11 programming card pdp11 programming card (older blue one) pdp11/04/34/34a maintenance card RSX-11M pocket reference (ship and masefield quote on front) MC68000 16 bit microprocessor programming card Printsets 11/34a field maintenance print set MS11-L field maintenance print set VT100/VT103 field maintenance print set Manuals (2) PDP-11 Macro-11 language reference manual (2) RSX-11M/M-Plus task builder manual pdp-11/34 system users manual MS11-L MOS memory users guide DL11-W serial line unit/real-time clock option operators manual M9312 bootstrap terminator module technical manual (copy) VAX-11 run time library reference manual RSX-11M/M-Plus executive reference manual IAS/RSX-11 system library routines reference manual (with updates) RSX-11M guide to writing an I/O driver (with updates) VAX-11 record management services reference manual VAX/VMS I/O users guide volume 1 VAX/VMS I/O users guide volume 2 VAX/VMS real time users guide VAX-11 run time library users guide RSX-11M beginners guide RSX-11M/RSX-11S documentation directory RSX-11M mini-index Introduction to RSX11M Beginners guide to the DEC EDITOR (2) RSX-11M/M-Plus guide to program development DECUS C Language Sytem DECUS C compiler reference manual DECUS C Language System compiler & library software support manual DECUS C Language System utility library reference manual PML users guide portable math library DECUS C Language system RSX-11M v4.0 executive and F11ACP C Extensions library GT40 users guide (operation) GT40 graphic display terminal manual volume 1 (theory, prog, maint) GT40 graphic display terminal manual volume 2 (theory, prog, maint) RSX11M user handouts (ZX-RSX11-UR) IAS/RSX-11 macro-11 reference manual IAS/RSX-11 ODT reference manual RT-11 shoftware support manual Price lists & specs GT11 Price List Hardware KEF11-AA (four roms, 2 sets, each set is a uA1488PC and a uA1489PC) unibus dual height extender card M9312 bootstrap terminator card (roms DL, DM, DP, DKDT, and 11/04/34 diag/cons) VT100 terminal & keyboard From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 4 22:35:54 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 22:35:54 -0500 Subject: Recent Trenton show References: <000501c78eaf$ea600210$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <008301c78ec6$7d06e0a0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> This thread has become wholly inappropriate. The last few posts on it should have been taken offlist and the people making those posts know it. If people want to "get in to it" with eachother, take it off list or I'll assist you in doing so. Jay From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 4 23:17:45 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 23:17:45 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730705042117t1d309052g564af4c5a355f822@mail.gmail.com> I'll look for ya then....I'm in a Knight's Inn about 15mi south. Don't recall the town but it's right on the interstate so hopefully not a long ride. There were some closer hotels for $100/day or so, and a few much cheaper but without internet service (hey, I'm an addict....) I only bought my vendor ticket a couple days ago. I thought I saw something on their site that said tickets bought after n date would be held at will-call instead of mailed. I do hope it's there! I haven't too much to sell, so to me it's more of a $70 parking space. Don't want to haul that boat anchor onto the shuttle bus ;) -j On 5/4/07, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > If anyone knows the spaces where they will be selling (parking), post it here > and we can go and harass each other :). My guess is we won't know until the week > before. Last year, Patrick Finnigan (sp?) was there and down about 100 yards > from where I was. I got a chance to meet a number of others on this list and it > is really great to put names with faces! If possible, why not plan a dinner > get-together on Saturday night for the ClassicCmp group! Anyone interested? > > I'll be there too in an easy to recognize blue Mazda van ... it has a set of > piano keys on each side and back of the van along with "Schwendtner Piano > Service". If anyone is into foxhunting, I've been asked to say a few words at > that forum so that will be fun. I'm also planning on trying to get an informal > transmitter hunting dinner going for Friday night. If anyone here is blind or > sight impaired, there will be a blind ARDF event on Sunday ... see > http://www.ardfusa.com for details ... and I'll be there too with a friend who > will be competing. > > FYI, I called the Days Inn in Miamisburg earlier this week to make reservations > and they still had rooms available ... didn't ask how much :), and it is only > about 5 miles or so from Hara (as I recall.) > > Marvin, KE6HTS From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri May 4 23:26:50 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 00:26:50 -0400 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> Message-ID: <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 04 May 2007 19:49, Marvin Johnston wrote: > If anyone knows the spaces where they will be selling (parking), post > it here and we can go and harass each other :). My guess is we won't > know until the week before. Last year, Patrick Finnigan (sp?) was > there and down about 100 yards from where I was. I got a chance to > meet a number of others on this list and it is really great to put > names with faces! If possible, why not plan a dinner get-together on > Saturday night for the ClassicCmp group! Anyone interested? I've got spaces 3214/3415 (they're back to back) this year. I'll have a lot of old (and some newer) computer stuff, random electronic things with tube in them, and test equipment for sale. Pat - KD9VAX -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri May 4 18:38:58 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 00:38:58 +0100 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED4@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Firstly thank you all for your kind responses. I'm now up to date with the history. Does anybody know what the current status is? Have Mentec abandonded the pdp-11 market or what? If they no longer see any commercial value in the products then why refuse us? If the rights had not been sold then I supose that they would be owned by HP. HP do have a very good VMS hobbyist program. Join HPUG and you can get a FOC license for most things. To round things off. What is the situation with pdp-8's? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa Sent: 04 May 2007 18:22 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Mentec Al Kossow wrote: > It sounds like Zane (maybe Tim Shoppa) have been in contact with them > recently, so there is no need for yet another set of people to be > involved. If "Recently" is "2000", then yes, I worked extensively with Mentec to make three sets of hobbyist CD's (RT-11, RSX-11, RSTS/E) using my archives and their archives to get bootable kits for emulators. > As I understand it, they have no interest in offering a low cost > license no matter how many people ask about it. Internally, there was interest, and I discussed it with several at Mentec in the 1996-2001 timeframe as I worked with them on other projects, and it got as far as them having a web page with pictures of the CD's I made for them. But no, not all the legal barriers were jumped, so it never really happened. I don't think anyone truly understands the legal barriers that Mentec faces. They do not own all the stuff free and clear to do with as they wish. In the late 90's, they could not sell a copy of any PDP-11 OS unless they also sold DEC's printed manuals with it, and they were having extreme troubles getting DEC's printed manuals from DEC's print shop. The folks in Mentec who were most enthusiastic about it were really nice, energetic people. I don't have any sore feelings about the work I did back then (I had a blast) but I don't have as much interest in the subject as I did ten years ago. Being out at the CHM last year rekindled it a little... but there's no shortage of truly redistributable and very-few-condition other stuff that I'm worrying about now. Tim. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri May 4 18:49:03 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 00:49:03 +0100 Subject: That horrible computer foam Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I have noticed something similar but related to the stick on feet found on the underside of many computers and periperials. They turn to the most awful semi-liquid goo. Its difficult to remove from their original position. Any that gets on hands or clothing is the devils own job to remove. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus Sent: 04 May 2007 21:51 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: That horrible computer foam As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed that some pieces of equipment like printers and the like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, squshy material that does not spring back. It also crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, along with the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry goo. On the CDC drives I just picked up, the entire inside of them is covered in this foam, some of it is starting to come off, or has stuck to cables and such inside. A couple smaller chunks of it literally fell off one part of the cover, the glue only holding the particular particles of the foam to which it was attached, and the rest of the foam falling away. What is the best thing to do about this, especially in something as sensitive as a disk drive? Should I remove it? What's the best method? Is there something I can use to replace it? Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. Any ideas? Thanks! -Ian From jrr at flippers.com Fri May 4 19:22:00 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:22:00 -0700 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 1:50 PM -0700 5/4/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed >that some pieces of equipment like printers and the >like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most >likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam >to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, >squshy material that does not spring back. It also >crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, along with >the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry >goo. > One of my first summer jobs - back in the late 60s - was at IBM in Toronto. The job was to scrape off the nasty foam from the inside of keypunch cases before they were sent down stream to be repainted... Sigh... John :-#)# From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 5 02:11:40 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 08:11:40 +0100 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> References: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1178349101.10579.11.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-05-04 at 14:51 -0500, Jason T wrote: > > > From: Mr Ian Primus > > > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > > >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in > > >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... I shifted a Microvax II rack containing a big tape drive and a pair of Fujitsu Eagles, a Microvax 3300, a grey wall, and various other large boxes of cables, disks, spares, books and other random things in a 1988 Citro?n CX. I'd left the rear seat squab out and placed the rack on its back on the floor, then filled it with the grey wall. The skins for the rack went between the rack body and the seats, the MVII and Fujitsu Eagles went in the boot (despite appearances, it's not a hatchback - that huge concave rear window is fixed in place). The tape drive went on the passenger's seat, with some more grey wall, and the MV3300 went on the floor in front of it. Then everything else was crammed in wherever it would fit. It took nearly a full minute for the suspension to come up to normal height when I started. I was expecting a pop and a puddle of green hydraulic oil at any moment... Funny thing is, I drove about 250 miles to pick it up at a more-or-less steady 85mph, and got 32mpg on the way down. I drove back at the same speed, loaded with nearly 750kg of stuff at the same speed, and got... 32mpg! Load doesn't seem to affect it at all. Gordon From cc at corti-net.de Sat May 5 04:31:05 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 11:31:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Emulex P4000 Terminal servers - End of lifed - Free software! In-Reply-To: <000501c78e59$f3796040$0800a8c0@asus> References: <000501c78e59$f3796040$0800a8c0@asus> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 May 2007, Moriamez.jc wrote: > Hello, I live in France and I am very happy seeing your message on P4000 > servers end of lifed I have 2*emulex p2516 and the software is end of > lifed, do you know what can i do ? thanks for all First: Learn to quote Second: Go to ftp.emulex.com/pub/pxxxx/ and look for the boot images and other support files (the PAKs are now all included and free) Christian From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat May 5 05:04:12 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 07:04:12 -0300 Subject: That horrible computer foam References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > WORST design "feature" --- the boards are mounting to the inside side of > the cabinet and the PCB layout has the battery and the top center of the > board which over course eventually deteriorated, burst open and oozes > battery acid to all of the adjacent components and traces. That's Who would think that some 30 years later it would still be used and collected? ;o) But remember: Vinegar is your friend. Use vinegar to clean the electrolyte from the battery and you'll be happy ;o) Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 5 05:25:33 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 03:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <322981.91040.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I have noticed something similar but related to > the stick on feet > found on the underside of many computers and > periperials. They turn to > the most awful semi-liquid goo. Its difficult to > remove from their > original position. Any that gets on hands or > clothing is the devils own > job to remove. > > Rod Yes. Sun feet do this. I see it a lot in my collecting - but last week I ran into it at work. I went to slide the Sun Type 5 keyboard on one of our servers forward and it wouldn't. It was glued to the top of the rack with the feet goo. Best thing that I have found to remove this is Get Off, from the makers of the Blow Off canned air. That stuff works GREAT. Hmm, maybe that will work on the foam... -Ian From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sat May 5 07:01:29 2007 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 08:01:29 -0400 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast - Hosstraders -NEARFEST In-Reply-To: <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> I'm not selling, so I'll just have to drop in on people. I'm staying with three friends at the University of Dayton. All four of us have been around computers for a long time, although I have the most legacy hardware. (and we are all hams, of course) You might find me hanging around the American Red Cross exhibit, as I am a Manager of Communications for them and I'll probably put in a few hours helping out. I'll certainly visit anyone that I see posted here, with the exception of calling my cell phone, I don't know of any public bulletin board where we could contact each other at last minute? On yet another post somebody mentioned the demise of Hosstraders and the replacement by NEARFest in New Hampshire. Well I went yesterday and I thought it was great. Lots of vendors and pretty well attended. I'll bet today will be even better. Joe Heck, K1LBG Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 04 May 2007 19:49, Marvin Johnston wrote: > >>If anyone knows the spaces where they will be selling (parking), post >>it here and we can go and harass each other :). My guess is we won't >>know until the week before. Last year, Patrick Finnigan (sp?) was >>there and down about 100 yards from where I was. I got a chance to >>meet a number of others on this list and it is really great to put >>names with faces! If possible, why not plan a dinner get-together on >>Saturday night for the ClassicCmp group! Anyone interested? > > > I've got spaces 3214/3415 (they're back to back) this year. I'll have a > lot of old (and some newer) computer stuff, random electronic things > with tube in them, and test equipment for sale. > > Pat - KD9VAX From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat May 5 09:04:56 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 10:04:56 -0400 Subject: Moving heavy hardware In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.1.20070504210735.01f22db8@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <200705051405.l45E53Ut023729@keith.ezwind.net> I went over one weekend to visit my parents to find my dad had moved a milling machine and a metal lathe into the basement. I took one look at the stairs and asked how in hell did he get them down there? His response was a few friends along with the help of their good friend gravity! He predicted would not be so helpful some day when we had to figure out how to get them back out. Needless to say he died unexpectedly and I spent a "weekend to remember" involving block and tackle along with some long 2x10's and braces, getting them back up and out, so mom could sell the house. The moral of this story is, someday your loved ones will have to deal with your dead weight collections and gravity is only your friend going down stairs, dragging heavy hardware back up requires a lot more effort and structural strength to the stairs. So unless you want to hear your loved ones curse you in the grave, don't just pretend they will know what to do, leave with a valid exit strategy! Back under my rock.... My back is flaring up just thinking about it again :) Bob Bradlee On Fri, 04 May 2007 21:09:03 -0400, Douglas Taylor wrote: >At 03:51 PM 5/4/2007, you wrote: >>> > From: Mr Ian Primus >>> > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) >>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> > >>> >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in >>> >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... >>> > >>> >-Ian >> >>My largest move in the smallest vehicle was 16 Sparcstations (4,5,10 >>variety) + a couple boxes of cables creatively crammed, tetris-style, >>into the trunk of an '84 Mercedes 240D. It wasn't until I got home >>that I realized the frame was rubbing the tires when I drove :) >This topic is very important to 'hobbyist' machinists. Take a look at some >of the moving experiences at >http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/ >Doug From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 11:17:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 09:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book Message-ID: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-COMPUTER-BOOK-LOT-Unix- Programming-IBM-PC-6_W0QQitemZ140114169493QQihZ004QQ categoryZ378QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem part of a lot. The edition I learnt assembler on was blue, this one is red. Not sure if they're different editions (the 1st would be ideal), but this one is probably early enough to be as useful. A tried and true text IMHO. I had tried others, but they all stunk by comparison. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 11:18:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 09:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need info on old eprom programmer Message-ID: <714736.44073.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Spectrum Dynamics model 550 memory programmer. Any docs or anything else? Real old. I haven't even attacked it yet. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 5 11:31:33 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 09:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070505093050.K73213@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 5 May 2007, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-COMPUTER-BOOK-LOT-Unix- > Programming-IBM-PC-6_W0QQitemZ140114169493QQihZ004QQ > categoryZ378QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > part of a lot. The edition I learnt assembler on was > blue, this one is red. Not sure if they're different > editions (the 1st would be ideal), but this one is > probably early enough to be as useful. A tried and > true text IMHO. I had tried others, but they all stunk > by comparison. . . . to recommend a specific book, title and/or author would be helpful From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 11:43:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <20070505093050.K73213@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <887577.25523.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> > . . . to recommend a specific book, title and/or > author would be helpful right-o. IBM PC Assembler Language and Programming, Peter Abel...1st edition *preferable*. Turns out with the edition in the auction they changed the title to "...Assembly Language and...". That looks like it might be a 2nd edition, or maybe just a revised 1st edition. Regardless, you can get the very 1st edition dirt cheap on Amazon. No need to bid on that guys auction. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 5 11:49:21 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 11:49:21 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast - Hosstraders -NEARFEST In-Reply-To: <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> I'd suggest a group SMS text messaging service. txtmob.com is the big one I know of, but it's failure is that you still have to send the messages from the web page - users can't text directly to the group from their phones/PDAs. Despite this, I created a Dayton07 group on there that we could try to use. I have basic web services on my PDA, but many don't. If anyone knows of a better system, please suggest it. -- jht On 5/5/07, joe heck wrote: > I'll certainly visit anyone that I see posted here, with the exception > of calling my cell phone, I don't know of any public bulletin board > where we could contact each other at last minute? From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 11:50:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 09:50:56 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 9:17, Chris M wrote: > part of a lot. The edition I learnt assembler on was > blue, this one is red. Not sure if they're different > editions (the 1st would be ideal), but this one is > probably early enough to be as useful. A tried and > true text IMHO. I had tried others, but they all stunk > by comparison. "IBM PC Assembly Language and Programming" by Peter Abel $87.20 at Amazon, discounted from $102. Given the price, this sounds like a textbook. Obviously, one of the Amazon.com reviewers doesn't share your view: "It is, bar none, the single worst computer language and programming resource I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. Not only does it lack critical details about methodology, it fails to include comprehensible explanations about the examples already provided. If it were simply that it was incomprehensible it might still be acceptable as a resource later on when clearer and more concise means of learning the subject are used. But this book contains more out and out flaws than the Beta release of Windows XP." I'm not in a position to comment on texts on assembly programming, never having owned one myself. I've always used the reference manuals for the computer system I was working with to learn it-- which, IMOHO, is the best way to get an in-depth understanding of how to program a machine. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 5 12:06:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 10:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> References: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070505100042.I73213@shell.lmi.net> I've taught PC Assembly Language using Abel. It was reasonably good, but did not provide enough hand-holding for beginners who are still struggling with "what is a program?", and what the assembler, linker, exe2bin, etc. are. For beginners, I prefer to start with Lafore (Waite group) and then switch books once they can put their name on the screen, count, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com http://merritt.edu/~fcisin/CIS20.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 5 12:11:18 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 10:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9775 (BZ7Ex) hard drive manual sought Message-ID: <330990.24828.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've recently accquired a CDC 9775 hard drive. (675mb fixed media) It's going to need some cleaning to get it running, and I need to know some info on how to set it up. Most importantly, the heads are locked, and according to a warning note taped to the HDA, so is the spindle. I want to find out how to _properly_ do this. Unlocking the heads looks simple, but I don't see a spindle lock anywhere. Also, this drive doesn't use the typical little plugs to change the ID, so I am not sure how it is set. Bitsavers has the operator's manual, but I really need the service manual, or at least the installation manual. Thanks! -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 5 12:11:18 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 10:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9775 (BZ7Ex) hard drive manual sought Message-ID: <330990.24828.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've recently accquired a CDC 9775 hard drive. (675mb fixed media) It's going to need some cleaning to get it running, and I need to know some info on how to set it up. Most importantly, the heads are locked, and according to a warning note taped to the HDA, so is the spindle. I want to find out how to _properly_ do this. Unlocking the heads looks simple, but I don't see a spindle lock anywhere. Also, this drive doesn't use the typical little plugs to change the ID, so I am not sure how it is set. Bitsavers has the operator's manual, but I really need the service manual, or at least the installation manual. Thanks! -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 5 12:17:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 13:17:08 -0400 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast - Hosstraders -NEARFEST In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/5/07, Jason T wrote: > If anyone knows of a better system, please suggest it. I don't have a good alternative, but I bought my phone seven years ago and it only takes calls - no texting. If you decide to use SMS, enjoy, but I won't see any of the traffic. I hope to be there, but I have to work out some scheduling logistics. :-/ I'm doing hourly contracting right now, and taking 8 hours unpaid leave for Friday is rather expensive. -ethan From marvin at west.net Sat May 5 12:37:50 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 10:37:50 -0700 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast Message-ID: <463CC0EE.A52A9216@west.net> I just got the wireless cell service internet that I can use from my laptop, so this would probably work. How about some clues on how to join/use/etc. this service. Tim's "trailing edge technology" is my motto as well, and I've never heard of or used these services. > From: "Jason T" > I'd suggest a group SMS text messaging service. txtmob.com is the big > one I know of, but it's failure is that you still have to send the > messages from the web page - users can't text directly to the group > from their phones/PDAs. Despite this, I created a Dayton07 group on > there that we could try to use. I have basic web services on my PDA, > but many don't. > > If anyone knows of a better system, please suggest it. From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 5 13:00:46 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 12:00:46 -0600 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 05 May 2007 09:50:56 -0700. <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <463C5380.25730.222A5959 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I'm not in a position to comment on texts on assembly programming, > never having owned one myself. I've always used the reference > manuals for the computer system I was working with to learn it-- > which, IMOHO, is the best way to get an in-depth understanding of how > to program a machine. I tried that with x86 and while the IA-32 documentation is the ultimate reference, its not very good for learning. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 5 13:01:42 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 13:01:42 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: <463CC0EE.A52A9216@west.net> References: <463CC0EE.A52A9216@west.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730705051101s2b4fb697p95767ab2b9155ae4@mail.gmail.com> The general idea is everyone register with the site and gives their cel/pda/etc numbers, which are kept private. Users can join groups, Dayton07 in this case. Users can then go onto the site and send a text message to every group member's phone via the web. What would be much more useful is if group members could send text messages from their device to the central server, and then have it distributed to the group. I'll keep looking for such a service. On 5/5/07, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I just got the wireless cell service internet that I can use from my laptop, so > this would probably work. How about some clues on how to join/use/etc. this > service. Tim's "trailing edge technology" is my motto as well, and I've never > heard of or used these services. > From ohh at drizzle.com Sat May 5 13:27:42 2007 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 11:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <463B5E9F.6890.1E6DCF02@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Regarding bad-tempered disintegrating foam: Chuck Guzis wrote, in part: > On 4 May 2007 at 15:56, Billy Pettit wrote: > > > 1. The easiest is clean up as much as you can and glue a new sheet of foam > > over the mess. You should be able to buy panels of acoustic foam in > > hardware stores. > But won't this simply push the same problem out a few more years > before you're looking at it again? If the plan is indeed to replace the foam (and I kind of prefer that myself, since it keeps the machine more like it was when originally put together), you could consider replacing it with ethafoam. It doesn't have the breakdown problems of regular foam - in fact, it's archivally safe for museum uses - and you can get it in a variety of sheet forms, including anti-static versions. http://www.dow.com/perffoam/market/products/ -O.- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 14:40:13 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <417592.78084.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > "IBM PC Assembly Language and Programming" by Peter > Abel $87.20 at > Amazon, discounted from $102. Given the price, this > sounds like a > textbook. I've heard that later editions weren't as good (???). This is why I specifically recommend the first or early editions (I only have experience with the very first edition - IBM PC Assembler (not Assembly) Language and Programming. By the price, that is a very recent edition. Maybe the later editions *try* to tie assembler into a Win32 environment. Maybe he didn't do as good a job as he did introducing the subject in a plain old DOS environment. > Obviously, one of the Amazon.com reviewers doesn't > share your view: > > "It is, bar none, the single worst computer language > and programming > resource I have ever had the misfortune to > encounter. Not only does > it lack critical details about methodology, it fails > to include > comprehensible explanations about the examples > already provided. If > it were simply that it was incomprehensible it might > still be > acceptable as a resource later on when clearer and > more concise means > of learning the subject are used. But this book > contains more out and > out flaws than the Beta release of Windows XP." Possibly this reviewer was entirely new to programming. I am of the persuasion that assembler could be used to teach rudimentary programming concepts, and in fact may be more useful in the long run (kind of like the reason they persuaded me to take Latin in my first year of high school, all the other Romantic languages would come easier. No further comments at this time though...). Maybe I'm quirkier then the typical rube, dunno. Could it be said I'm smarter...LOL LOL I'll answer that myself. No freaking way! I actually did take a course subsequent to teaching myself the subject (?). Assembly language typically blows people away. I remember this one lady (~30 yoa) complaining that she didn't have a clue what was going on, yet scored 95's and such on the tests! The teacher sort of droned I'll admit, but this one older fella (read gray all the way) was doing an absolute stellar job of picking up the material. The kids don't have a monopoly on this stuff, I don't care what anyone says. > I'm not in a position to comment on texts on > assembly programming, > never having owned one myself. I've always used the > reference > manuals for the computer system I was working with > to learn it-- > which, IMOHO, is the best way to get an in-depth > understanding of how > to program a machine. Uh, well, if you're learning assembler from the get go from tech refs, you're a better man then me. I know that's precisely how many gurus did it, but us kids tended to be lazier or what have you. ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat May 5 14:46:38 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 20:46:38 +0100 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <200705042309.l44N8RaA039537@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705042309.l44N8RaA039537@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <83A4ED5F-2708-450C-880F-3FA1406EF9CA@microspot.co.uk> On 5 May, 2007, at 00:09, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 17 > Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 13:50:54 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mr Ian Primus > > As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed > that some pieces of equipment like printers and the > like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most > likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam > to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, > squshy material that does not spring back. For the ink jet printers, beware that when they clean their print heads, some models dump the excess ink into this foam or into something like blotting paper. The older and larger models have an excess ink bottle, and after many many hours operation they will ask you to empty that bottle. Usually this is based on a calculation of how much ink is there, rather than a level sensor, so if you tell the printer you have emptied it, but haven't actually done it, it will eventually overflow and make a real mess of you carpet. Some small printers so the same calculation of when the foam/blotting paper is fully saturated and ask you to change it. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 14:47:20 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <20070505100042.I73213@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <642226.39097.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > I've taught PC Assembly Language using Abel. It was > reasonably good, but > did not provide enough hand-holding for beginners > who are still struggling > with "what is a program?", and what the assembler, > linker, exe2bin, etc. > are. Like I said in previous post, I feel assembler can be taught as rudimentary programming, but it takes additional time and effort in preparatory steps (binary, hex,...). Usually it makes more sense to start out with some other compiled language, or as is usually done QBasic or VB. I'm not partial to learning programming with an IDE though. > For beginners, I prefer to start with Lafore (Waite > group) and then switch > books once they can put their name on the screen, > count, etc. I spent 28 bucks on a Waite Group book before I found Abel at a library. The author's name wasn't Lafore, but this particular one was terrible. I don't have the text in front of me, but I felt there was something more logical about the way he laid stuff out. Learning assembler on a 16-bit pc isn't the easiest platform either. I know of one guy who learned it on some IBM iron, don't know if that architecture had segmented addressing like a pc, but he said he went through the whole course, passed yet didn't have a clue, and the next semester (or was it a year later) it all just clicked. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 14:51:20 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <731642.40014.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > I tried that with x86 and while the IA-32 > documentation is the > ultimate reference, its not very good for learning. If you're looking to learn 32 bit Windows type assembly, maybe try "the Assembly Language Master Book" by Vlad Pirogov. I own it, but haven't spent much time with it yet. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 5 14:57:56 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <20070505093050.K73213@shell.lmi.net> References: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <20070505093050.K73213@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 May 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 5 May 2007, Chris M wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-COMPUTER-BOOK-LOT-Unix- > > Programming-IBM-PC-6_W0QQitemZ140114169493QQihZ004QQ > > categoryZ378QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > part of a lot. The edition I learnt assembler on was > > blue, this one is red. Not sure if they're different > > editions (the 1st would be ideal), but this one is > > probably early enough to be as useful. A tried and > > true text IMHO. I had tried others, but they all stunk > > by comparison. > > . . . to recommend a specific book, title and/or author would be helpful I took an IBM PC assembly class from one George Driver who said that he was tired of mediocre texts on assembly, so he wrote his own. I still have it and highly recommend it. I thought it wasn't very widely used, but then I found this page: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?&isbn=0314010408&nsa=1 Amazon has several copies as well. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat May 5 15:14:21 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 21:14:21 +0100 Subject: Punch card racks In-Reply-To: <200705040445.l444ihBS026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705040445.l444ihBS026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <970C4436-1BDA-417B-B4EA-8725A777666D@microspot.co.uk> Any thoughts of where (in England) to get the metal racks of drawers which used to be used to store 80 column punched cards. There must have been thousands made but I have looked for them on eBay and no luck. I don't suppose they are still made unless they are used for some other purpose (like bank notes). I have seen some a bit bigger but they have pop rivets poking into the storage space which would damage the cards. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 5 15:56:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 21:56:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at May 5, 7 07:04:12 am Message-ID: > > > WORST design "feature" --- the boards are mounting to the inside side of > > the cabinet and the PCB layout has the battery and the top center of the > > board which over course eventually deteriorated, burst open and oozes > > battery acid to all of the adjacent components and traces. That's > > Who would think that some 30 years later it would still be used and > collected? ;o) But remember: Vinegar is your friend. Use vinegar to clean > the electrolyte from the battery and you'll be happy ;o) For alkaline electrolyte batteries, which includes NiCds, you want a chemically weak acid. VInegar is fine, as you say, but I find a solution of citric acid to be as good, and it smells nicer :-) It's pretty safe on PCBs and electronic components (at least, it'll do no more damage than the electrolyte has done). It's also pretty harmless to you. You can get citric acid from pharmacies, and I beleive home brewing shops (for people who make their own beer) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 17:12:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 15:12:12 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <417592.78084.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com>, <417592.78084.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 12:40, Chris M wrote: > > Uh, well, if you're learning assembler from the get > go from tech refs, you're a better man then me. I know > that's precisely how many gurus did it, but us kids > tended to be lazier or what have you. Actually, assembly was a step up. I started by programming machine language. The sad thing is that architectures are far less varied than they were 30-40 years ago. Maybe that's a good thing; maybe not. I note that Jeff Duntemann's got a book out called "Step by Step Assembly". I'm not familiar with it, but do know Jeff's style of writing from his DDJ articles. He's got a nice folksy feel to his prose so the assembly book might be good. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 17:20:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 15:20:39 -0700 Subject: PCW 8256 PSU questions Message-ID: <463CA0C7.3534.2358359F@cclist.sydex.com> I got the Amstrad PCW8256 yesterday and plunked a CF diskette into it The disk spun and then the screen went dark (no beeps). I pulled my screwdriver out and opened it up. If I disconnect the CPU and check the voltages, I find that the +24v is present, but the +12 reads about 2.5v and the +5 is 0v. I'm not eager to do much with the unit, but I thought I'd give repair a shot before consigning it to the "scavenge and dump" pile. Does anyone have any ideas on what might be wrong or (gasp) even a schematic of the monitor/PSU board? I got the PCW for the disk drive, which, with a new belt appears to work just fine on a PC. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat May 5 17:33:21 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 15:33:21 -0700 Subject: Punch card racks In-Reply-To: <970C4436-1BDA-417B-B4EA-8725A777666D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200705040445.l444ihBS026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> <970C4436-1BDA-417B-B4EA-8725A777666D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <463D0631.7090801@msm.umr.edu> Roger Holmes wrote: > > I have seen some a bit bigger but they have pop rivets poking into > the storage space which would damage the cards. Look for people who process snap away full size credit card forms. they were the same size as 80 column hollerith cards. I have two that I use for tool boxes, but I'm in LA and don't really want to get rid of them anyway. Big thing with card drawers is that you could pull out the drawers and climb up them at least the ones we had. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 5 20:02:06 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 19:02:06 -0600 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 05 May 2007 15:12:12 -0700. <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Actually, assembly was a step up. I started by programming machine > language. The sad thing is that architectures are far less varied > than they were 30-40 years ago. Maybe that's a good thing; maybe > not. Au contraire. "Architecture" these days is whatever you want it to be cooked into an FPGA. Maybe you don't consider that architecture, but the hardware possibilities available to you for low cost these days are limited only by your imagination and gate count. Of course there's a trade-off between speed and versatility but FPGA designs are *very* popular for custom architectures these days. > I note that Jeff Duntemann's got a book out called "Step by Step > Assembly". I'm not familiar with it, but do know Jeff's style of > writing from his DDJ articles. He's got a nice folksy feel to his > prose so the assembly book might be good. I've also read this book trying to learn assembly. The problem with the "folksy style" is that it just takes up too much time and space being folksy and not enough time and space covering the details. IMO this book isn't worth buying. Fortunately I spent very little money on it by purchasing it as a remainder. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 20:32:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:32:32 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 19:02, Richard wrote: > Au contraire. "Architecture" these days is whatever you want it to be > cooked into an FPGA. Maybe you don't consider that architecture, but > the hardware possibilities available to you for low cost these days > are limited only by your imagination and gate count. Of course > there's a trade-off between speed and versatility but FPGA designs are > *very* popular for custom architectures these days. I was speaking of production computer architectures, not one-off or special-purpose designs. Something for which you'd likely find a book to learn assembly language. Sure you can program an FPGA anyway you want, within limits. But they're not sold as computer systems. And even so, most are binary 2's complement wordsize-a-multiple-of-8-bits designs. Arguing that you can program an FPGA to look like anything you'd like seems to me to be akin to saying that one can microprogram a 360/30 to have any old instruction set imaginable or program an emulator to run on a DG Nova to emulate any instruction set that one cared for. Cheers, Chuck From stuart at retrocomputing.tv Sat May 5 07:43:24 2007 From: stuart at retrocomputing.tv (stuart birchall) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 13:43:24 +0100 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. thanks, stu From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 5 07:58:29 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 13:58:29 +0100 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1178369909.10579.20.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-05-04 at 18:08 -0400, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah, no kidding.... > > In video arcade machines - games like Pole Position boards all had the > WORST design "feature" --- the boards are mounting to the inside side of > the cabinet and the PCB layout has the battery and the top center of the > board which over course eventually deteriorated, burst open and oozes > battery acid to all of the adjacent components and traces. That's I've just replaced the battery and repaired some eaten tracks in my Korg Polysix synth. That's exactly what had happened - the battery electrolyte has eaten its way out of the battery, run down its leg, and attacked one of the buffers for the data lines. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 5 12:06:21 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:06:21 +0100 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast - Hosstraders -NEARFEST In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1178384781.10579.33.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-05-05 at 11:49 -0500, Jason T wrote: > I'd suggest a group SMS text messaging service. txtmob.com is the big > one I know of, but it's failure is that you still have to send the > messages from the web page - users can't text directly to the group > from their phones/PDAs. Despite this, I created a Dayton07 group on > there that we could try to use. I have basic web services on my PDA, > but many don't. Can you write a script that will post a message on their page to be SMSed out, when your server receives an email? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 5 16:38:15 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 22:38:15 +0100 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <642226.39097.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <642226.39097.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1178401095.7452.9.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-05-05 at 12:47 -0700, Chris M wrote: > --- Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I've taught PC Assembly Language using Abel. It was > > reasonably good, but > > did not provide enough hand-holding for beginners > > who are still struggling > > with "what is a program?", and what the assembler, > > linker, exe2bin, etc. > > are. > > Like I said in previous post, I feel assembler can be > taught as rudimentary programming, but it takes > additional time and effort in preparatory steps > (binary, hex,...). Usually it makes more sense to > start out with some other compiled language, or as is > usually done QBasic or VB. I'm not partial to learning > programming with an IDE though. There's no reason why it should be, though. You could come up with some hypothetical BCD-based architecture. Gordon From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 5 21:42:46 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 22:42:46 -0400 Subject: 8-bit ISA ethernet cards Message-ID: <200705052242.46977.pat@computer-refuge.org> A few weeks ago, some people in here were talking about putting network cards in IBM PCs or XTs or something... As it happens, I ran across a box of 3com 3c503 network cards (AUI and 10BaseT ports, 8 bit ISA card). If anyone wants one, lemme know, I'm asking $5+shipping, and I'll have the box with me at Dayton if you want to harass me about them, then. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat May 5 21:48:16 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 22:48:16 -0400 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <463D41F0.5030508@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi All > I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the >rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they >seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site >that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. No >mention of pdp anything. > > Jerome Fine replies: First of all, please remember I am ONLY interested in RT-11. And while I have had contact with and used a bit of RSX-11 and a very extensive amount of RSTS/E, I was never responsible of a system which ran RSX-11 or RSTS/E. Which is the primary reason that I never became proficient enough to maintain either an RSX-11 or a RSTS/E system. On the other hand, I may now know RT-11 as well as some of the top RT-11 developers knew RT-11 during the 1980s. As for why Mentec no longer actively supports any of the PDP-11 systems, I venture to guess that it is no longer profitable. >As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around how >RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have >not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they could >help us poor pdp preservers. > Mentec has helped the poor PDP-11 preservers. Unfortunately, it is not obvious since the help is more in not causing those poor PDP-11 preservers any difficulties as opposed to being proactive by making the operating systems generally available such as Borland products are at present. Also an example is the VMS hobby program which Mentec does not have. In addition, as others have mentioned in their replies, it seems very doubtful that Mentec really did "totally own" the PDP-11 operating systems. Unfortunately, it seems highly probable that the terms of the agreement between Mentec and DEC required the parties to maintain confidentiality since I can't see why those terms have never been publicly disclosed - unless those terms were so detrimental to the users that neither party wanted to admit the mistakes in the lack of a PDP-11 hobby program in the face of the VMS hobby license program. But what did happen did, what did not happen did not - the stories and interpretations that many of us make up about what happened are probably 90% fiction and are no longer even important. BUT, Mentec did make older versions of the operating systems available for legal non-commercial use under what was at the time a DEC owned emulator. It certainly seemed questionable at the time and it may be even more questionable at present, but Mentec has chosen to make no challenge to the use of those older versions of the operating systems under the current name of that DEC emulator which has evolved to become SIMH. In addition, Mentec also seems to be ignoring the legal requirement for a transfer of any operating system license to the new owner of any old PDP-11 hardware so long as, at least as far I can interpret, the new owner is non-commercial. Certainly there have been numerous discussions on classiccmp (one is going on right now about a single RL02 system) over PDP-11 use of the RT-11 operating system (i.e. NOT under SIMH) and I can't remember any recent protests from Mentec in this regard. Any finally, while the RSX-11 and RSTS/E operating systems are much more tightly controlled and not very easily available, almost 10 years ago, Megan Gentry, a former RT-11 developer, put a zip file of V05.03 of RT-11 up for general download with the explicit permission of the individuals who had to provide that permission. V05.03 of RT-11 is the last binary distribution allowed under the DEC emulator and by inference under SIMH. There is also a CD version (an ISO file) which contains as many as possible of the RT-11 binary versions as could reasonably be found for all of V05.03 of RT-11 and prior. Any for those individuals who are legally licensed to run the latest version of RT-11, V05.07 released in October of 1998 or just under 9 years ago, there is also a CD containing the rest of the RT-11 binary distributions. The latter CD was requested by a university who was legally licensed to use and already had a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 and was legally entitled to a backup of all of the RT-11 binary distributions. So - I don't really think that there are any "poor pdp preservers" as far as RT-11 is concerned. In point of fact, I have personally found ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in the last 5 years in: (a) Preserving RT-11, (b) Fixing any bugs in RT-11 (c) Making any enhancements in RT-11 Of course, for individuals in the know, most of them already have sufficiently preserved what they want of RT-11. On the other hand, even though I have made a number of vital bug fixes to RT-11 (for problems that crash RT-11) along with other minor problems as well as some extensive enhancements, I have yet to find anyone who is even interested in a Y3K for RT-11, let alone someone who would be interested in participating. Of course, Y3K may already have been done, the enhancements that I have already completed may have been duplicated along with many other enhancements and the bugs fixed as well and distributed to the users of RT-11. Perhaps I just don't know that it has all occurred without a word of it reaching my eyes and ears. But, as a result, I have place (a), (b) and (c) into a lower priority and focused on attempting something even less useful, i.e. confirming the value of pi(10^18) using a sieve program running under RT-11 with a view to attempting to determine pi(10^24). When I find that it will take a million years to finish the calculations for pi(10^24) with current computers, I may shift back to (a), (b) and (c) if I can't find something even less useful than knowing the value for pi(10^24). On the other hand, if anyone is really interested, drop me a line. If anyone really knows why Mentec does not have a hobby program for PDP-11 operating systems, let us know. Just don't complain about RT-11 and Mentec since nothing that Mentec seems to be doing at present interferes with "poor pdp preservers" as far as RT-11 is concerned. In 16 more years, which will be 25 years after V05.07 of RT-11 was released, I very seriously doubt that Mentec will care if every hobby user who wants a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 is using it on real DEC hardware, let alone if there is a running emulator on what goes for a PC in the year 2023 when I will be 84 years old if I am still kicking. As for commercial sites still running RT-11, if they don't already have the Y2K compliant V05.07 of RT-11, then I very much doubt that they will require V05.07 in the year 2023. And if those commercial sites are managing with the current bugs in RT-11 9 years after V05.07 was released, well ... Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 5 21:51:23 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 19:51:23 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: At 1:43 PM +0100 5/5/07, stuart birchall wrote: >Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to >attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. Keep an eye out for old 10Base-T hubs, many of them had a 10Base-2 connection. Even now I'm guessing that they are much cheaper than a media converter (I know how much I paid for my media converter). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat May 5 21:53:05 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 23:53:05 -0300 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com><463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com><06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <082501c78f89$baf10e40$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to > attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. An old 8-port hub is also a nice converter...plug the hub on the network and you have a thinnet port! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat May 5 22:02:20 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 00:02:20 -0300 Subject: That horrible computer foam References: <200705042309.l44N8RaA039537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <83A4ED5F-2708-450C-880F-3FA1406EF9CA@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <083801c78f8b$2bd69de0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > For the ink jet printers, beware that when they clean their print heads, > some models dump the excess ink into this foam or into something like > blotting paper. The older and larger models have an excess ink bottle, > and after many many hours operation they will ask you to empty that > bottle. Usually this is based on a calculation of how much ink is there, > rather than a level sensor, so if you tell the printer you have emptied > it, but haven't actually done it, it will eventually overflow and make a > real mess of you carpet. Some small printers so the same calculation of > when the foam/blotting paper is fully saturated and ask you to change it. Xerox were champions on that problems. Field Technicians used a syringe and a needle to empty spent ink tanks! From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 5 22:10:32 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 23:10:32 -0400 Subject: Punch card racks In-Reply-To: <970C4436-1BDA-417B-B4EA-8725A777666D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200705040445.l444ihBS026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> <970C4436-1BDA-417B-B4EA-8725A777666D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <200705052310.32934.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 May 2007 16:14, Roger Holmes wrote: > Any thoughts of where (in England) to get the metal racks of drawers which > used to be used to store 80 column punched cards. There must have been > thousands made but I have looked for them on eBay and no luck. I don't > suppose they are still made unless they are used for some other purpose > (like bank notes). I have seen some a bit bigger but they have pop rivets > poking into the storage space which would damage the cards. Not in England, so this isn't going to be of much help to you, but I do happen to have a couple of those that I plan to get rid of in the near future, if I can work out the hassle I'm currently having with the storage facility they're currently sitting in. Located in south central PA, if anybody's interested. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 5 22:21:30 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 23:21:30 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200705052321.31135.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 May 2007 22:51, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:43 PM +0100 5/5/07, stuart birchall wrote: > >Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to > >attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. > > Keep an eye out for old 10Base-T hubs, many of them had a 10Base-2 > connection. Even now I'm guessing that they are much cheaper than a > media converter (I know how much I paid for my media converter). Got a couple of those kicking around I'm looking to get rid of, though I don't recall offhand whether they have that connection or not... They're mentioned at http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/w4s.html . -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat May 5 22:34:32 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 00:34:32 -0300 Subject: Big iron in FPGA. Was: Re: wonderful assembly language book References: >, <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <085101c78f8f$78f5abd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Arguing that you can program an FPGA to look like anything you'd like > seems to me to be akin to saying that one can microprogram a 360/30 > to have any old instruction set imaginable or program an emulator to > run on a DG Nova to emulate any instruction set that one cared for. Nice question...any "big iron" implementation in FPGA? S/360? S/370? PDP? VAX? Whatever? From ploopster at gmail.com Sat May 5 22:41:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 23:41:57 -0400 Subject: Big iron in FPGA. Was: Re: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <085101c78f8f$78f5abd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: >, <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7@cclist.sydex.com> <085101c78f8f$78f5abd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <463D4E85.5090302@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Arguing that you can program an FPGA to look like anything you'd like >> seems to me to be akin to saying that one can microprogram a 360/30 >> to have any old instruction set imaginable or program an emulator to >> run on a DG Nova to emulate any instruction set that one cared for. > > Nice question...any "big iron" implementation in FPGA? S/360? S/370? > PDP? VAX? Whatever? As far as IBM stuff, not that I've heard of, but I don't think S/360 would be that hard to do. Even early S/370 wouldn't be that difficult. But later S/370 (and S/360/67 probably) started getting complicated. Peace... Sridhar From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat May 5 22:59:51 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 23:59:51 -0400 Subject: Big iron in FPGA. Was: Re: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <085101c78f8f$78f5abd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE@cclist.sydex.com> <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7@cclist.sydex.com> <085101c78f8f$78f5abd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 5/5/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > Arguing that you can program an FPGA to look like anything you'd like > > seems to me to be akin to saying that one can microprogram a 360/30 > > to have any old instruction set imaginable or program an emulator to > > run on a DG Nova to emulate any instruction set that one cared for. > > Nice question...any "big iron" implementation in FPGA? S/360? S/370? > PDP? VAX? Whatever? > > As far as I know, PDP11-44 is in FPGA. It runs Unix-V6. It is implemented by a female graduate student. As far as I know, No VAX is in FPGA. vax, 9000 From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 23:05:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 21:05:32 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 19:51, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Keep an eye out for old 10Base-T hubs, many of them had a 10Base-2 > connection. Even now I'm guessing that they are much cheaper than a > media converter (I know how much I paid for my media converter). I wonder if you could use an old network card that had both 10Base2 and 10BaseT connections. I had an old Ansel ISA card with 4 10Base2 ports and 1 10BaseT and I've used it that way. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 5 23:06:14 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 22:06:14 -0600 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 05 May 2007 18:32:32 -0700. <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Sure you can program an FPGA anyway you want, within limits. But > they're not sold as computer systems. And even so, most are binary > 2's complement wordsize-a-multiple-of-8-bits designs. They are sold as computer systems -- google reconfigurable computing. They are also sold as "computer systems" that perform specialized tasks. From my friend who works at Xilinx, telecommunications is a giant consumer of FPGA hardware. > Arguing that you can program an FPGA to look like anything you'd like > seems to me to be akin to saying that one can microprogram a 360/30 > to have any old instruction set imaginable or program an emulator to > run on a DG Nova to emulate any instruction set that one cared for. So what? When you build a bit-slice machine, you're microprogramming it to have the architecture you want. My Lilith/Eve is built that way. Does that make it "less" of an architecture? Of course not. Architecture is a concept, not a piece of hardware. The hardware realizes the concept. Whether that hardware is SSI/MSI parts, vacuum tubes, relays, lego parts, FPGAs, or software running on SIMH is irrelevant to the architecture. It doesn't care. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 5 23:14:45 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 23:14:45 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast - Hosstraders -NEARFEST In-Reply-To: <1178384781.10579.33.camel@elric> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> <1178384781.10579.33.camel@elric> Message-ID: <51ea77730705052114j49dd9e9btd42304b2dde731c4@mail.gmail.com> On 5/5/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Can you write a script that will post a message on their page to be > SMSed out, when your server receives an email? > > Gordon I believe there service already does that - emailing to dayton07 at txtmob.com will send an SMS message to the group. I don't know of any way of handling incoming SMS messages, however. -j From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 5 23:18:13 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 21:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <1178401095.7452.9.camel@elric> References: <642226.39097.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <1178401095.7452.9.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20070505210631.N94206@shell.lmi.net> > There's no reason why it should be, though. You could come up with some > hypothetical BCD-based architecture. Enrollment drops well below quorum with a hypothetical imaginary system. Currently only PC (Windows or Linux) or Mac will get enough enrollment. What percentage of the people here learned how to program on hypothetical systems? I dumped that stuff as fast as I could, in switching over to 1401 machine and assembly, even though I had to do it with an emulator on a 1620. A helluva lot of people here say that newbies should get years of underlying fundamentals and theory before they are ever allowed to see or touch a machine, even though THEY started out on real machines, and would not have ever gotten into it without that hands-on approach. There's damn little feeling of accomplishment in just being able to put your name on the screen in CP/M, DOS, Windoze, or Mac; there is way less if there isn't any such machine. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 6 00:23:58 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 22:23:58 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <20070505210631.N94206@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >From: Fred Cisin ---snip--- > > >What percentage of the people here learned how to program on hypothetical >systems? > Hi Although, not a machine like Fred, my first assembly was for the 6800 and then for the 8048. Neither of these programs ever got a chance to actually run. My first actual assembly code that ran on something was in a Poly88. After that I was exposed to a MDS800 and other languages. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Download Messenger. Join the i?m Initiative. Help make a difference today. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07 From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 6 01:02:04 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 00:02:04 -0600 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 05 May 2007 22:23:58 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "dwight elvey" writes: > Although, not a machine like Fred, my first assembly was for the 6800 and > then for the 8048. [...] My first assembly was on the 6809 in 1984. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 6 02:10:12 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:10:12 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report Message-ID: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I think I might be on something of a roll here - I spent the train ride to/from work (and a good chunk of my lunch break) playing about with state machine designs for the write side of the floppy disc writer. What I've come up with is a nifty little finite state machine that interprets instructions from the acquisition RAM, then executes them and writes them to disc. The way I've done it, there are five instructions: 0nnn nnnn: Write Timer. Writes the 7-bit timer value 'n' to the timer, then outputs a pulse on the WRDATA line when the counter reaches zero 1111 1111: STOP. Sets the STOP flag and halts the state machine until it is reset. 1011 xxx0: Close Write Gate. Deactivates WRGATE, preventing the head from writing to the disc. 1011 xxx1: Open Write Gate. Activates WRGATE, allowing the drive head to write to the disc. 110n nnnn: Wait for 'n' INDEX pulses before continuing execution of SM instructions. 1100 0000: Wait for a hard-sector track index (sector zero marker) signal before continuing execution of SM instructions. As far as I can tell, this is the minimum instruction set required to allow both soft and hard sectored discs to be duplicated reliably. There is one 'spare' instruction -- 1110 xxxx -- if anyone can come up with a good use for it, I'm open to suggestions. The write hardware currently clocks in at 19 macrocells, read hardware is another 26, the track-index pulse detector (which allows hard-sectored discs to be read and written) is 18, and the MFM synchronisation detector (including the neat little state-machine data separator) is another 29. So that's a total of 92, which leaves 52 for the acquisition control circuitry and registers. Assuming I don't run out of any other chip resources first, that is. The disc interface is going to be a standard 34-pin "PC" floppy connector. It seemed like the best plan - wiring to 3.5 and 5.25" drives can be done with a standard cable, and 8" drives can probably be connected with a fairly simple adapter cable. I do need one thing confirming though - I've read that on hard-sectored discs, each sector is marked with an index pulse: ---+ +------------+ +---- | | | | +--+ +--+ And the start of the track (sector 1) looks like this - note the index pulse half-way between two other index pulses: ---+ +----+ +----+ +---- | | | | | | +--+ +--+ +--+ 1 2 3 My question is, does sector 1 start at 1, 2 or 3? I'm guessing 3, and that's what the sync detector's set up for at the moment. Basically, it has a timing window - if a second index pulse arrives within 0.75T (where T = time between two normal index pulses) of the last one, it is assumed to be a track index sequence. The threshold value is adjustable in software, so drive speed isn't an issue. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 04:40:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 02:40:22 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <463D4016.25058.25C67B57@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 22:06, Richard wrote: > So what? > > When you build a bit-slice machine, you're microprogramming it to have > the architecture you want. My Lilith/Eve is built that way. Does > that make it "less" of an architecture? Of course not. SIgh. Whatever. Cheers, Chuck From jonas at otter.se Sun May 6 03:21:32 2007 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 10:21:32 +0200 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <200705050924.l459NbCk052924@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705050924.l459NbCk052924@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <463D900C.3000809@otter.se> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed > that some pieces of equipment like printers and the > like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most > likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam > to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, > squshy material that does not spring back. It also > crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, along with > the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry > goo. > > On the CDC drives I just picked up, the entire inside > of them is covered in this foam, some of it is > starting to come off, or has stuck to cables and such > inside. A couple smaller chunks of it literally fell > off one part of the cover, the glue only holding the > particular particles of the foam to which it was > attached, and the rest of the foam falling away. > > What is the best thing to do about this, especially in > something as sensitive as a disk drive? Should I > remove it? What's the best method? Is there something > I can use to replace it? > > Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, > there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. > I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what > I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what > will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk > from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks! > > -Ian This is a common problem with classic cameras where it is used as light seals. The foam also tends to eat away other stuff like paint etc. so it needs removing. Get rid of as much as you can manually, by vacuuming, picking it out with tweezers from small spaces, scraping etc, then clean the remaining gunk away with alcohol (ethanol) which dissolves it instantly. Take care with plastic surfaces, they may be fogged by the alcohol. For classic cameras, new, better foam is available to replace the old stuff. I have no idea of the price or where to get it from, try asking Jon Goodman (jon_goodman at yahoo.com) who sells it in kits to reseal old cameras. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat May 5 23:18:03 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 05:18:03 +0100 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Get a cheap hub that has both 10/100baseT and BNC. Mine is a Dynamode DM-809STP. I use it to convert the BNC output from my VAX to 100BaseT on my network. Regards Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of stuart birchall Sent: 05 May 2007 13:43 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. thanks, stu From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat May 5 23:30:11 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 05:30:11 +0100 Subject: Punch card racks Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDA@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Standard Punched card is 7 3/8" x 3 ?" so find the nearest index card storage drawer size and use that. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 05 May 2007 21:14 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Punch card racks Any thoughts of where (in England) to get the metal racks of drawers which used to be used to store 80 column punched cards. There must have been thousands made but I have looked for them on eBay and no luck. I don't suppose they are still made unless they are used for some other purpose (like bank notes). I have seen some a bit bigger but they have pop rivets poking into the storage space which would damage the cards. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun May 6 08:25:30 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 14:25:30 +0100 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDB@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well that's interesting... It would seem that as long as Mentec choose to ignore non-commercial use you can do (within reason) what you like. I did say pdp preserver as opposed to RT, RSX or RSTS preserver. However I must admit to having worked in digital SWS and to having been part of the VMS marketing group I do have an interest in the software side. DEC were quite keen on educational computing and that's how they would have viewed a hobbyist program. As HP now effectivly own what was DEC I assume the agreement is now between them and Mentec. It seems that many efforts to set up a hobbyist (or collectors program) have come to nought due to Mentec seeing no profit in the arrangement. Needless to say as a DEC hardware collector a simulator is of no interest to me. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine Sent: 06 May 2007 03:48 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mentec >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi All > I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the >rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they >seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site >that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. No >mention of pdp anything. > > Jerome Fine replies: First of all, please remember I am ONLY interested in RT-11. And while I have had contact with and used a bit of RSX-11 and a very extensive amount of RSTS/E, I was never responsible of a system which ran RSX-11 or RSTS/E. Which is the primary reason that I never became proficient enough to maintain either an RSX-11 or a RSTS/E system. On the other hand, I may now know RT-11 as well as some of the top RT-11 developers knew RT-11 during the 1980s. As for why Mentec no longer actively supports any of the PDP-11 systems, I venture to guess that it is no longer profitable. >As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around >how >RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have >not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they >could help us poor pdp preservers. > Mentec has helped the poor PDP-11 preservers. Unfortunately, it is not obvious since the help is more in not causing those poor PDP-11 preservers any difficulties as opposed to being proactive by making the operating systems generally available such as Borland products are at present. Also an example is the VMS hobby program which Mentec does not have. In addition, as others have mentioned in their replies, it seems very doubtful that Mentec really did "totally own" the PDP-11 operating systems. Unfortunately, it seems highly probable that the terms of the agreement between Mentec and DEC required the parties to maintain confidentiality since I can't see why those terms have never been publicly disclosed - unless those terms were so detrimental to the users that neither party wanted to admit the mistakes in the lack of a PDP-11 hobby program in the face of the VMS hobby license program. But what did happen did, what did not happen did not - the stories and interpretations that many of us make up about what happened are probably 90% fiction and are no longer even important. BUT, Mentec did make older versions of the operating systems available for legal non-commercial use under what was at the time a DEC owned emulator. It certainly seemed questionable at the time and it may be even more questionable at present, but Mentec has chosen to make no challenge to the use of those older versions of the operating systems under the current name of that DEC emulator which has evolved to become SIMH. In addition, Mentec also seems to be ignoring the legal requirement for a transfer of any operating system license to the new owner of any old PDP-11 hardware so long as, at least as far I can interpret, the new owner is non-commercial. Certainly there have been numerous discussions on classiccmp (one is going on right now about a single RL02 system) over PDP-11 use of the RT-11 operating system (i.e. NOT under SIMH) and I can't remember any recent protests from Mentec in this regard. Any finally, while the RSX-11 and RSTS/E operating systems are much more tightly controlled and not very easily available, almost 10 years ago, Megan Gentry, a former RT-11 developer, put a zip file of V05.03 of RT-11 up for general download with the explicit permission of the individuals who had to provide that permission. V05.03 of RT-11 is the last binary distribution allowed under the DEC emulator and by inference under SIMH. There is also a CD version (an ISO file) which contains as many as possible of the RT-11 binary versions as could reasonably be found for all of V05.03 of RT-11 and prior. Any for those individuals who are legally licensed to run the latest version of RT-11, V05.07 released in October of 1998 or just under 9 years ago, there is also a CD containing the rest of the RT-11 binary distributions. The latter CD was requested by a university who was legally licensed to use and already had a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 and was legally entitled to a backup of all of the RT-11 binary distributions. So - I don't really think that there are any "poor pdp preservers" as far as RT-11 is concerned. In point of fact, I have personally found ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in the last 5 years in: (a) Preserving RT-11, (b) Fixing any bugs in RT-11 (c) Making any enhancements in RT-11 Of course, for individuals in the know, most of them already have sufficiently preserved what they want of RT-11. On the other hand, even though I have made a number of vital bug fixes to RT-11 (for problems that crash RT-11) along with other minor problems as well as some extensive enhancements, I have yet to find anyone who is even interested in a Y3K for RT-11, let alone someone who would be interested in participating. Of course, Y3K may already have been done, the enhancements that I have already completed may have been duplicated along with many other enhancements and the bugs fixed as well and distributed to the users of RT-11. Perhaps I just don't know that it has all occurred without a word of it reaching my eyes and ears. But, as a result, I have place (a), (b) and (c) into a lower priority and focused on attempting something even less useful, i.e. confirming the value of pi(10^18) using a sieve program running under RT-11 with a view to attempting to determine pi(10^24). When I find that it will take a million years to finish the calculations for pi(10^24) with current computers, I may shift back to (a), (b) and (c) if I can't find something even less useful than knowing the value for pi(10^24). On the other hand, if anyone is really interested, drop me a line. If anyone really knows why Mentec does not have a hobby program for PDP-11 operating systems, let us know. Just don't complain about RT-11 and Mentec since nothing that Mentec seems to be doing at present interferes with "poor pdp preservers" as far as RT-11 is concerned. In 16 more years, which will be 25 years after V05.07 of RT-11 was released, I very seriously doubt that Mentec will care if every hobby user who wants a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 is using it on real DEC hardware, let alone if there is a running emulator on what goes for a PC in the year 2023 when I will be 84 years old if I am still kicking. As for commercial sites still running RT-11, if they don't already have the Y2K compliant V05.07 of RT-11, then I very much doubt that they will require V05.07 in the year 2023. And if those commercial sites are managing with the current bugs in RT-11 9 years after V05.07 was released, well ... Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 10:30:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:30:50 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <463D923A.29568.27075C4B@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 22:06, Richard wrote: > So what? > > When you build a bit-slice machine, you're microprogramming it to have > the architecture you want. My Lilith/Eve is built that way. Does > that make it "less" of an architecture? Of course not. SIgh. Whatever. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 10:30:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:30:50 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 8:10, Philip Pemberton wrote: > My question is, does sector 1 start at 1, 2 or 3? Yes, it starts at 3, providing you acknowledge that "Sector 1" is a completely artificial notion. (i.e. There are a few hard-sectored systems that don't look for the index pulse at all.) Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 6 10:54:07 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 11:54:07 -0400 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200705061154.07789.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 05 May 2007 21:02, Richard wrote: > In article <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE at cclist.sydex.com>, > > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > Actually, assembly was a step up. I started by programming machine > > language. The sad thing is that architectures are far less varied > > than they were 30-40 years ago. Maybe that's a good thing; maybe > > not. > > Au contraire. "Architecture" these days is whatever you want it to be > cooked into an FPGA. Maybe you don't consider that architecture, but > the hardware possibilities available to you for low cost these days > are limited only by your imagination and gate count. Of course > there's a trade-off between speed and versatility but FPGA designs are > *very* popular for custom architectures these days. Sure, but no one (in their right mind) builds a general purpose CPU out of them. Well, unless it's a research or "toy" project, a prototype design, or something very unusual and high end[1], but even in that case it's still not making a general purpose CPU out of it. You normally take an FPGA board, program your specific algorithm into it (that is, convert the algorithm into hardware baseically), and shove bits through it. Have you actually used a FPGA board? I've actually taken a workshop (a few years ago now) on them. Everyone that I know who's using FPGAs in their product (in any sort of manner that approximates a CPU) uses them as some sort of co-processor to offload a specific processing task from the main CPU. I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. [1] I'm specifically referring to a NAS box we just got at work. MMmmm, NFS in hardare... see http://bluearc.com/ Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 6 11:23:58 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 11:23:58 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? Message-ID: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> I've spotted this nice setup locally, wondering if the guy is asking way too much for it: http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/sys/322279611.html If the link goes dead, it's an IBM 5110 PC, 5103 Printer and 5114 dual floppy unit. Yeah, I know, it's worth what people will pay for it. But I don't even see any completed on ePay, so I can't begin to gauge the appropriate value. Those big floppy drives are calling me, though... -- jht From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 11:31:15 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 09:31:15 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: At 5:18 AM +0100 5/6/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Get a cheap hub that has both 10/100baseT and BNC. Mine is a Dynamode >DM-809STP. I use it to convert the BNC output from my VAX to 100BaseT on >my network. How common are 10/100BaseT Hubs with a BNC connection? I know I've never seen one. Any hub I've seen with a BNC connection has been limited to 10Mbit. The original posters problem just happens to be half the reason I even care about 10Base2, my Amiga 3000's NIC only has a BNC connection, I also have this problem with my DECserver 90L+. Though I'm not using either at the moment. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 11:46:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 09:46:33 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <200705061154.07789.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: , <200705061154.07789.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <463DA3F9.358.274CB06E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 11:54, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone > can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is > general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. ...and that was my point. In the space of, oh, five years, a programmer might be exposed to systems from IBM with very very different architectures. Consider the IBM 1401 and 7090, both introduced in 1959. One a variable-word length decimal machine; the other a 36-bit fixed-word binary machine. Or another 1959 system, the 1620, variable-word decimal, but very different from the 1401. Five years later, we have S/360 that didn't look anything like what had come before. Not to mention the various other 7000-series iron (particularly STRETCH), the 1130, 1800...etc. And the those were the offerings in 5 years from ONE manufacturer. If one jumped manufacturers, one learned not only a new machine and assembly language, but a whole new vocabulary to use when talking about them. In assemblers, contrast 1401 Autocoder with CDC 6000 COMPASS, for example. The feeling that one has just arrived from Mars is unavoidable. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 6 11:48:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 10:48:05 -0600 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 06 May 2007 11:54:07 -0400. <200705061154.07789.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200705061154.07789.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Saturday 05 May 2007 21:02, Richard wrote: > > Au contraire. "Architecture" these days is whatever you want it to be > > cooked into an FPGA. [...] > > Sure, but no one (in their right mind) builds a general purpose CPU out > of them. Right, if you want a general purpose CPU, you buy one. If you need a different architecture, then your architecture isn't one for a general purpose CPU, but a special purpose CPU. You can build that in an FPGA if that's what you need. Really, I don't see what the complaint is here. It seems to be akin to saying "ya know, back in the old days when we hand-made nails, each nail was different. Each nail had character. I don't like these mass-manufactured nails, they're all so identical." > Have you actually used a FPGA board? Yep. > I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone > can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is > general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. What would be the point of that? Obviously such things don't exist exactly for the same reasons I just stated above. If "architecture" is just different, but not better, then what's the point? The protestations seem to be that the marketplace has settled on a few general purpose CPU designs. Well boo-f*cking-hoo. Again, so what? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 6 12:05:22 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 18:05:22 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 May 2007 at 8:10, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> My question is, does sector 1 start at 1, 2 or 3? > > Yes, it starts at 3, providing you acknowledge that "Sector 1" is a > completely artificial notion. (i.e. There are a few hard-sectored > systems that don't look for the index pulse at all.) By that I assume you mean that they use the index pulse to mark the sectors, but ignore the track start marker? Otherwise how could they be called hard-sectored if they weren't synchronising the sector boundaries against sector marks on the disc? Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 12:10:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 10:10:05 -0700 Subject: Oddball DC-xxx tape drive Message-ID: <463DA97D.16329.27623BFB@cclist.sydex.com> I've got a DC-300-footprint tape drive in my collection of peripherals, circa 1986 (chip dates) for which I'm trying to identify the medium. A DC-300/600 cart fits perfectly and is spun a bit by the drive before the error light comes on. Upon close examination of the drive internals, the surprise is that it doesn't use an optical sensor to determine BOT/EOT, but rather contacts on either side of the read/write head that apparently make contact with a conductive metallic strip on the tape. So the medium isn't DC300, anyone know what it is? The interface is a 50-conductor one, with unit selects from 0-3, but it doesn't seem to be QIC-02 or QIC-36--and it's not SCSI either. The drive has a motherboard with two cards in it--one appears to contain the read/write amplifiers, the other contains a 6803, 6522 and a 6821 and a 2716 EPROM with a 3M copyright sticker. The manufacturer is ADIC, but I'm unable to come up with any documentation on the web for this beast. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 12:19:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 10:19:06 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com>, <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463DAB9A.3436.276A7B2E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 18:05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > By that I assume you mean that they use the index pulse to mark the sectors, > but ignore the track start marker? Right. The ones I'm thinking of are 8" systems, where the drive has separate outputs for SECTOR and INDEX. There's no compelling reason to pay attention to INDEX in many applications--and some systems reflect this. That was the other thing that I wanted to mention--that 8" drives separate sector marks from index marks for you. Most do it with a couple of one-shots--precision timing isn't terribly important, given that HS 8" disks had at most 32 sectors. Given that, you may want to make your determination of index and sector marks optional for those wishing to make use of the drive capabilities. If you haven't gotten a volunteer for your CW samples, drop me a private email and I'll make some up for you. Cheers, Chuck From cc at corti-net.de Sun May 6 12:20:38 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:20:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2007, Jason T wrote: > If the link goes dead, it's an IBM 5110 PC, 5103 Printer and 5114 dual > floppy unit. Is that a model 1 (with built in tape drive) or a model 2 (without tape drive)? > Yeah, I know, it's worth what people will pay for it. But I don't > even see any completed on ePay, so I can't begin to gauge the > appropriate value. Those big floppy drives are calling me, though... Although I don't know what "obo"s are (he asks for $600obo), even $600 are way too much for such a system. Most systems are for free (or at most 100-150 EUR for complete systems with manuals and media) because nearly noone can use/program/repair them anymore or at least they aren't really interesting machines for people that don't want to program them in machine language or do reverse engineering. You must keep in mind that you'll have to write your own programs in order to do any real work with it, otherwise it's like an old CBM machine with BASIC and nothing else... Having said that, nobody has shown any interest in my 5110 Kermit or 5110 Infocom interpreter yet. Christian From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 6 12:59:14 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 12:59:14 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705061059r69678669w3b2d8b03404a0cd9@mail.gmail.com> On 5/6/07, Christian Corti wrote: > Is that a model 1 (with built in tape drive) or a model 2 (without tape > drive)? He doesn't have a picture of the one he's selling. He just shows an old IBM ad for the 5100, which does show a tape drive. That will be my next question to him then. > Although I don't know what "obo"s are (he asks for $600obo), even $600 are Just an abbreviation meaning "or best offer." > language or do reverse engineering. You must keep in mind that you'll > have to write your own programs in order to do any real work with it, Work? People work with computers? I thought we just buy them/find them in the dumpster, bring them home, wash them off and put pictures of them on the internet. Or maybe that's just me :) I figure he'll be waiting a long time to get that price for it, so I'll watch for him to re-post the ad and come down. Then again, you never know who you'll find on Craigslist; it could be gone tomorrow. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 13:01:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 14:01:13 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:18 AM +0100 5/6/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >Get a cheap hub that has both 10/100baseT and BNC. Mine is a Dynamode > >DM-809STP. I use it to convert the BNC output from my VAX to 100BaseT on > >my network. > > How common are 10/100BaseT Hubs with a BNC connection? I know I've > never seen one. Any hub I've seen with a BNC connection has been > limited to 10Mbit. The only ones I've seen, are 10Mbit only as well. I have one I use with 1 x 10base2, 8 x 10baseT, and 1 x AUI that I've slapped a 10baseFL transceiver onto. > The original posters problem just happens to be half the reason I > even care about 10Base2, my Amiga 3000's NIC only has a BNC > connection, I also have this problem with my DECserver 90L+. Though > I'm not using either at the moment. I'm in the same boat - Amigas with 10base2 only. Pretty much anything else I have that does networking has 10base2 _and_ an AUI at least. In my experience, it's much easier to find an old 10baseT hub with a 10base2 port or an AUI (to which you add a 10base2 transceiver) than a 10base2 to 10baseT media converter, but the media converter will be smaller if you can track one down. -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 6 13:18:40 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 14:18:40 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004501c7900a$f960c590$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 2:01 PM Subject: Re: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? > > > The original posters problem just happens to be half the reason I > > even care about 10Base2, my Amiga 3000's NIC only has a BNC > > connection, I also have this problem with my DECserver 90L+. Though > > I'm not using either at the moment. > > I'm in the same boat - Amigas with 10base2 only. Pretty much anything > else I have that does networking has 10base2 _and_ an AUI at least. > My A3000 came with a network card with rj45, very lucky there. > In my experience, it's much easier to find an old 10baseT hub with a > 10base2 port or an AUI (to which you add a 10base2 transceiver) than a > 10base2 to 10baseT media converter, but the media converter will be > smaller if you can track one down. My first hub (still have it in use) was a 3com office TP4 combo (4 RJ45, 1 coax, and a AUI port), not sure how easy one would be to find these days. I have a transiver connected to a Mac print server for my 4/600 PS printer (transievers with rj45 are hard to find outside of ebay). TZ From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 6 13:22:00 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 14:22:00 -0400 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 06 May 2007 09:46:33 PDT." <463DA3F9.358.274CB06E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200705061822.l46IM0kl016702@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >On 6 May 2007 at 11:54, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone >> can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is >> general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. I can't name a general purpose one, but I can name a number of application specific embedded systems which you can buy right now (if you have a big checkbook :-) which have fpga-implemented cpu's. I'm working on two different ones right now. but that probably was your point. I just wanted to point out that they do exist and people do program them, but it's not a generalist thing. -brad From jim at photojim.ca Sun May 6 13:44:27 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 12:44:27 -0600 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <1178477067.11609.2.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2007-06-05 at 09:31 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:18 AM +0100 5/6/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > How common are 10/100BaseT Hubs with a BNC connection? I know I've > never seen one. Any hub I've seen with a BNC connection has been > limited to 10Mbit. I think they are pretty uncommon, but it doesn't much matter. Get a 10BaseT hub with a BNC port and connect it to your 100BaseTX switch. That way, your 100 Mbps devices get full speed; all the traffic to the thinnet devices gets routed via your hub. I don't know if this is an option with the particular network card in question, but my solution to this problem has been to get AUI to 10BaseT converters. Most network cards of this vintage have AUI ports. That saves me the bother of making a thinnet segment. I got some new converters a year or so ago for just a few dollars each off the auction site. Jim From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sun May 6 13:59:57 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 14:59:57 -0400 Subject: Dayton and RL02's Message-ID: The following thoughts have just occurred to me: 1) I am going to Dayton next week; 2) I will be driving my car alone, so can haul moderately sized pieces of equipment back home; 3) I have decided to purchase another RL02 drive and disk pack for my 11/23+ (ref. the previous single-RL02-system discussion, this seems to be a good solution to my backup problem). SO - is anyone else going to Dayton who has an RL02 for sale and can haul it there? Please contact me off-list. thanks Charles From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 6 14:02:05 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 15:02:05 -0400 Subject: Modifying a Nubus TokenRing card Message-ID: <1ad001c79011$09db01a0$0b01a8c0@game> I have 2 of these Asante MacRing (same as TokenRing I hope) NB 16/4 Nubus tokenring cards: http://home.neo.rr.com/unknownk/images/100_1106.jpg Can I solder in some parts (lower right of the card) and use rj45 to connect this card to a TokenRing Hub (when I snag one)? Seems like I need a RJ45 jack, 4 capacitors (same as the ones on the 9 pin jack above?) and a chip marked 78Z003 (what is that exactly)? Oh, does anybody have drivers for this card? From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sun May 6 10:13:14 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:13:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <17131.217.225.85.127.1178464394.squirrel@217.225.85.127> stuart birchall said: > Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to > attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. In contrast to the converters from AUI to TP or BNC where AUI has all the signals you need to combine signals for TP, you basically need a special transformer circuit, BNC->TP is not so simple. The typical circuit you are looking for is an old 10MBit hub with BNC output, like the Centrecom MR820TR I incidentally happen to use here at home in my local network. Since noone nowadays still want to deal with that slow 10Mbits *) **), it is likely to find such hubs in the dump or at eBay. *) except the readers here **) interestingly, people accept even lower speeds for WLANs where the naming of the theoretical limits imply that one actually gets 11MBit/s as nominal. -- Holger From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 6 14:12:03 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 20:12:03 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463DAB9A.3436.276A7B2E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com>, <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> <463DAB9A.3436.276A7B2E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463E2883.6020108@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The ones I'm thinking of are 8" systems, where the drive has separate > outputs for SECTOR and INDEX. There's no compelling reason to pay > attention to INDEX in many applications--and some systems reflect > this. OK then, looks like I *do* need to read the SA800 docs then... > That was the other thing that I wanted to mention--that 8" drives > separate sector marks from index marks for you. Most do it with a > couple of one-shots--precision timing isn't terribly important, given > that HS 8" disks had at most 32 sectors. Given that, you may want to > make your determination of index and sector marks optional for those > wishing to make use of the drive capabilities. That's a good point - if there's a spare pin on the 34-pin connector (and a bit of spare space in the CPLD) I'll add the relevant logic to it. Pins 4 and 6 on the FDD connector look like fair game - they're listed as "N/C" on my pinout, but seeing as it's going to be turned into an input, I doubt that matters much (after all, you can always turn off the external index marker input). The only thing I'm slightly worried about is if the INDEX output also includes the half-sector pulse that marks the 'first sector'. That would change how the drive controller needs to be programmed - if you wanted to read the last sector on its own, you'd add 1 to the "termination count" (number of times a termination condition - i.e. the INDEX line - must exist before the R/W operation is stopped). If the drive masks out the half-sector pulse, you wouldn't need to add the 1. Again, all of this is configurable in the CPLD; the hard part is deciding how to integrate all these options into the software interface and API! I think I'll spend this evening sorting out the register interface stuff, tie all the logic together and see if it passes the behavioural simulations. If it does, I'll start work on the schematics and PCB. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 6 14:39:12 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 15:39:12 -0400 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <200705061822.l46IM0kl016702@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <463DA3F9.358.274CB06E@cclist.sydex.com> <200705061822.l46IM0kl016702@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20070506193911.GA14704@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Sun, May 06, 2007 at 02:22:00PM -0400, Brad Parker wrote: > > "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >On 6 May 2007 at 11:54, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > >> I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone > >> can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is > >> general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. > > I can't name a general purpose one, but I can name a number of > application specific embedded systems which you can buy right now (if > you have a big checkbook :-) which have fpga-implemented cpu's. I'm > working on two different ones right now. > > but that probably was your point. I just wanted to point out that > they do exist and people do program them, but it's not a generalist > thing. Right, and I was trying to point out, that FPGA-implemented CPU architecture isn't anything like the variety of commonly availble CPU architectures that there were in the 60's/70's and earlier. Back then, every manufacturer (pretty much) had their own architectures, and "commonly" availble machines might have 8, 12, 16, 32, 36, 60-bit, etc CPUs, or use 1's complement arithmatic (or magnitude and sign), instead of 2's complement. (Or, a non-base-2 numbering scheme such as BCD, 2-4-2-1, hollerith code, etc.) Richard seemed to be claiming that there was such a variety today of commonly-availbe general-purpose CPUs (because of FPGAs), but maybe I just mis-understood him. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 14:37:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 12:37:39 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, , Message-ID: <463DCC13.13581.27E953A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 14:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The only ones I've seen, are 10Mbit only as well. I have one I use > with 1 x 10base2, 8 x 10baseT, and 1 x AUI that I've slapped a > 10baseFL transceiver onto. I've got a PCI 10/100 card with an Intel chipset on it and it's got both coax and UTP connectors on it, so they *do* exist. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 14:52:53 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 15:52:53 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <463DCC13.13581.27E953A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <463DCC13.13581.27E953A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 May 2007 at 14:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > The only ones I've seen, are 10Mbit only as well. I have one I use > > with 1 x 10base2, 8 x 10baseT, and 1 x AUI that I've slapped a > > 10baseFL transceiver onto. > > I've got a PCI 10/100 card with an Intel chipset on it and it's got > both coax and UTP connectors on it, so they *do* exist. I think some of the context got whacked - I was referring to hubs, not NICs. I haven't seen a 10/100 hub with 10base2. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 14:58:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 12:58:21 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <20070506193911.GA14704@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> References: <463DA3F9.358.274CB06E@cclist.sydex.com>, <200705061822.l46IM0kl016702@mwave.heeltoe.com>, <20070506193911.GA14704@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <463DD0ED.13094.27FC46CF@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 15:39, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Right, and I was trying to point out, that FPGA-implemented CPU > architecture isn't anything like the variety of commonly availble CPU > architectures that there were in the 60's/70's and earlier. Back then, > every manufacturer (pretty much) had their own architectures, and > "commonly" availble machines might have 8, 12, 16, 32, 36, 60-bit, etc > CPUs, or use 1's complement arithmatic (or magnitude and sign), instead > of 2's complement. (Or, a non-base-2 numbering scheme such as BCD, > 2-4-2-1, hollerith code, etc.) Anent that, in EETimes about a week ago, Clive Maxfield wrote about a movement to implement decimal floating point for the financial folks-- implemented in FPGA as a coprocessor. http://www.pldesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=KACYJ2NGXHOEI QSNDLRCKHSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=199001229 I'm not certain if the representation is BCD or DPD, however. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 15:04:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 13:04:29 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, <463DCC13.13581.27E953A7@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <463DD25D.13342.2801E693@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 15:52, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think some of the context got whacked - I was referring to hubs, not NICs. > > I haven't seen a 10/100 hub with 10base2. Yeah, my goof--neither have I. --Chuck From us21090 at yahoo.com Sun May 6 15:58:39 2007 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 13:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. Message-ID: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, About a month ago I picked a nice stash from a freecycler wishing to clean out. The summary list: Partial Apple II, II+, IIe and lots of h/w accessories and software. The fuller list is at the end of this entry. I'm not a big collector (I have a Obtronix Apple Replica and Kim-1 (another 6502 SBC)). But I thought I'd piece together a nice representative Apple 2 and sell off the rest. I haven't tested anything yet. Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most capability, but the II is more significant. Question 2: Which accessories are significant to keep (you know, but hate to say it: "VERY R at RE!!!")? Some things may be rare, but I doubt I'd use them. For example, the Switch-A-Slot (see http://tinyurl.com/2m8b3e ) Thanks for any helpful suggestions! Scott Fuller lengthier list (my notes are shoddy in places) ***Systems*** Apple II MN/SN: A2A0016/A2S1-61847 * Manufacture Date (corner of mobo): 7928 * Missing Power supply * Missing Cover (aaargh!!) Apple II+ MN/SN: A2S1016/A2S2-102594 * Ram Card (CSE/KS??) * Disk ][ Interface card * Apple IIe MN/SN: A2S2064/A2S2-D45-055F * Disk ][ Interface card * Mouse interface * Mockingboard * Parallel Card - Precision S/W * RAM Works II ***Other Hardware*** Apple Disk ][ A2M0003 (Qty 3 older style, Qty 1 newer) Transware Accelerator Joystick Koala Pad Numeric Keypad IIe A2M2003 Synch Printer Interface card IRQ Manager - Berkeley Softworks Switch-A-Slot - South Calif. Research Group IEEE-488 Card MPC Peripherals AP-S10 SUP'RMOD VHF Converter Interactive Structres A/D Modem - Applied Engineering Datalink Floppy Drive Controller for IIe 3.5" Drive Disk ][ Interface Card CMS SCSI II Apple Super Serial Card II Apple IIe 80 Col/64K Memory Expansion Sequential Systems Ram80 Silentype Printer A2M0032 Hardrive in enclosure (I didn't open to get model, size) Apple Monitor (I didn't note the model) Commodore Monitor (I didn't note the model) ***Software*** Copy II Plus DOS 3.3 Basics, System Manual MousePaint ProDOS Start Smith's Adventure Construction Set Apple Fortran Apple Pascal GEOS - includes GEOFile, GEOCalc,... Merlin Pro Macro Assembler IIe, IIc No Slot Clock more (if I remember correctly) ***Software on Cassette*** Mastermind Apple Lis'ner, Apple talker RamTest Forte' Music Dynacomp - Poker Party, Teacher's Pet, Games Pack Renumber/Append, Alignment Test Tone MicroUsers Software Exchange (Baltimore) - UDraw, Music Box Apple - Phone List, Brian's Theme Apple - Hopalong Cassidy, Lemonade Apple - Penny Arcade, Finance 1 Speakeasy Bulls & Bears Avalon MicroComp Game - Computer Baseball Strategy ***Books*** A Guide to Programming in AppleSoft (2nd Ed) Apple II Basic Manual, Ref Manual DOS Manual (DOS3.3, I think) SuperSerial Card AppleSoft Basic Programming Reference Manual Apple Machine Language (Don and Kurt Inman) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 6 15:58:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:58:34 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463E2883.6020108@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com>, <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> <463DAB9A.3436.276A7B2E@cclist.sydex.com> <463E2883.6020108@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463E417A.7010008@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: >> That was the other thing that I wanted to mention--that 8" drives >> separate sector marks from index marks for you. Most do it with a >> couple of one-shots--precision timing isn't terribly important, given >> that HS 8" disks had at most 32 sectors. Given that, you may want to >> make your determination of index and sector marks optional for those >> wishing to make use of the drive capabilities. > > That's a good point - if there's a spare pin on the 34-pin connector > (and a bit of spare space in the CPLD) I'll add the relevant logic to > it. Hmm, any chance of making the connector more of a CPU bus, with a handful of address lines? Then you just plug in a little module, one per floppy drive, to give that drive an ID on the bus. My thinking is that supporting just two drive types isn't enough in a general archive box, and even four might not cut it. The only overhead is a data cable per floppy drive, and a few buffer / address decoding ICs... The module would have a standard 34 pin connector for drive signals on it, or I suppose there might be special-case variants for 8" or for some really oddball setups. (I was tempted to say you could make the modules plug straight into the back of the drives, similar to SCSI SCA adapters, and then just have a single bus cable connecting them all up, but the lack of any standard as to placement of a floppy drive's data connector makes that problematic) cheers Jules -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From evan at snarc.net Sun May 6 16:12:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:12:00 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. Message-ID: <200705062112.l46LCExQ017348@keith.ezwind.net> Keep the straight II. You can pick up the later models anytime, but the original II is increasingly rare. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 17:03:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:03:19 -0700 Subject: ICP N75 substitute Message-ID: <463DEE37.1938.286EAEF0@cclist.sydex.com> I found the problem with my PCW8256--it's an open "IC protector", part ICP-N75. Rated at 2.7A. Am I safe in replacing it with a far- easier-to-find-here-in-the-USA 3A picofuse? "IC protectors" must be an across-the-pond thing--I've never seen one of these before-- what are they, other than a fuse? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 13:50:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:50:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 5, 7 09:05:32 pm Message-ID: > I wonder if you could use an old network card that had both 10Base2 > and 10BaseT connections. I had an old Ansel ISA card with 4 10Base2 > ports and 1 10BaseT and I've used it that way. That sounds as though your caard had a built-in hub (was it really 4 BNCs and one RJ45? I tould have thought the other way round would be more useful). Mot cards with 2 network connectors (say 10base2 and 10baseT) simply have the transceiver circuitry for each netowrk type, and a set of links to connect either (but not both) to the ehternet chip. Now, you can't simply connect 2 transceivers back-to-back to make a network converter, you need a vit of loginc [1] to hanclde collisions, etc. And that logic wouldn't be presset on a normal network card. []] I have an old device desigend to link a pair of transceivers (it has a couple of AUI connectors on the back). It's quite complicated, there's a RAM-based state machine linked to a couple of ehternet encoder/decoder ICs, and a Z80-based microconttoller system to load the state machine RAM. So I doubt you could use a network card as a media converter Of course that logic is present in the chip you find in a 10baseT hub, which is why you can use one of those as a converter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 13:41:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:41:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCW 8256 PSU questions In-Reply-To: <463CA0C7.3534.2358359F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 5, 7 03:20:39 pm Message-ID: > I'm not eager to do much with the unit, but I thought I'd give repair > a shot before consigning it to the "scavenge and dump" pile. Does > anyone have any ideas on what might be wrong or (gasp) even a > schematic of the monitor/PSU board? I thought I mentioned last week that I have the PCW8256 service manual. Amstrad service manuals are just shcemaitcs and parts lists -- almost no faultfinding infromation. Actually, I prefer that sort of manual :-) Anyway, the only problem could be that I have the manual for the 230V mains version (not suprisingly), and it appears that there is no way to make that PSUmonitor board work on 115V mains (the mains input stage is just a bridge rectifier feeding a single smoothing capacitor, it couldn't be trivially changed into a voltage doubler). However, assuming that the secondary side ofthe supply is the same in all versions, here goes. The fact that your 24V line is present and correct inplies that the mains side of the PSU is working correctly. This is a somewhat odd PSU (for a computer) in that it rectifies the mains, chops it, and feeds it to a SMPSU-like transformer, but doesn't apply any regulation feedback from the outputs to the chopper stage. Instead there are linear regulator circuits for each of the outpuyts. I'll describe the 12V one, because (a) it's simpler than the 5V one (no overcurrent protection circuit) and (b) the 5V regulator depends on the 12V one, so if the 12V is missing or incorrect, the 5V won't come up either. The regualtor circuit uses IC5003, an AN6531 device. It's powered from the 'raw' 24V supply, it feeds Q5003 (2SD1666) which is the pass transistor for the 12V supply. There's feedback from the 12V output (emitter of that trasnsitro) to the regulator chip via a potenital divider consiting of VR5002 and R5021. Start by measuring the collector voltage of Q5003. According to the schematic, it should be 13.5V, but that is unregulated, of course. If it's missing (and I think it will be), check D6010 (the half-wave rectifier for this supply line) and ICP502 (an 'IC protector' fuse in series with the diode). This is lavelled ICP-N75 on the schematic, I forget how to work out the current rating from that (is it 75+40 = 3000mA or 3A???) My guess, actually is that ICP502 has blown. It looks like a 2-lead TO92 pacakge alonside the chopper transformer, and is the only overcurrent protection for the 12V supply. The question is 'why'. Maybe the disk drive motor took too much current or something. You might want to look into that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 17:09:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 23:09:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Upgrading my HP9816 Message-ID: I've just upgraded my HP9816 (aka HP9000/216) to have 1M RAM on the processor board,. In case anyone else has one of these machines, and wants to do the upgrade, here's how I did it. -tony Upgrading an HP9816 to 1M RAM on the processor board ---------------------------------------------------- These instructions assume you're starting with a 256K processor board, that is one with 32 4164 DRAMs fitted. Firslty remove the processor board. To do this, disconnect all cables from the rear of the 9816, then remove the DIO slot cover plate (or a DIO board witu an external connector). Remove any DIO boards in the slots -- memory voards will need to have their addresses chaged after this modification. Release the 2 quarter-turn fasteners on the rear of the machine and free the top cover from the clips under the back edge of the machine. Slide the cover rearwards, lift it off, and unplug the fan cable from the monitor PCB. Pull the processor board -- at the very bottom of the machine -- rearwards, unclip the earth wire fromthe faston tab on the RS232 connector. Slide the processor board all the way out. Now to upgrade the RAM. Desolder all 32 DRAMs from the board. These are in 2 rows at the very front edge. Leave the clock oscillator can, reset-circuit transsitor array, and resistor pack in place. Clear out the pads for U122 (to the right of the rear row of DRAMs) and R47 (leftmost resistor in the block of 3 resisotrs to the left of the ROMs) At this stage both of those locations should be empty. Fit 32 41256 (256K*1) DRAMs in place of the 64K ones that were just removed. Fit a 74F158 at U122 and a 33 Ohm resistor at R47 Cut J11 and J12 (in front of the DIP switch array). Cut J8 1-2 and link 2-3 (this likn is in fornt of U34, near the ROMs). Turn off all sections of SW3 (frontmost DIP switch). Sections 5-7 _must_ be off or the RMA will be diabled, sections 1-4 set the address of the RAM. It's simplest to have them all off, which makes the processor board RAM appear at the top of the memory map, then to address all other boards following the HP instructions, regarding the processor board RAM as a 1M board set to '0'. Refit the processor board, conencting the ground wire. Plug in the mains cable and power up. The screen should report a little under 1M free. If all appeears to be working, switch the unit off, unplug the mains cable, and refit the covers, DIO board(s) and cables. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 17:17:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 23:17:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <004501c7900a$f960c590$0b01a8c0@game> from "Teo Zenios" at May 6, 7 02:18:40 pm Message-ID: > > I'm in the same boat - Amigas with 10base2 only. Pretty much anything > > else I have that does networking has 10base2 _and_ an AUI at least. > > > > My A3000 came with a network card with rj45, very lucky there. I am wondering how hard it owuld be to remove the 10base2 transceiver chip from the Amiga's network card and kludge on a 10baseT transciever circuit. If the former is something standard like an 8392, it should be pretty easy. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 17:24:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 23:24:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: ICP N75 substitute In-Reply-To: <463DEE37.1938.286EAEF0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 6, 7 03:03:19 pm Message-ID: > > I found the problem with my PCW8256--it's an open "IC protector", Our messages crossed :-). As you'll now see, I'd dug out schematics, described the cirucit, and suggested you check that IC protector > part ICP-N75. Rated at 2.7A. Am I safe in replacing it with a far- > easier-to-find-here-in-the-USA 3A picofuse? "IC protectors" must I think so (butI am not legally responsible, OK :-)). This one is just in zeries with one of the secondaries of the chopper transformer -- between the transformer and the half-wave rectifier diode. Incientally, how do you get it as 2.7A? > be an across-the-pond thing--I've never seen one of these before-- > what are they, other than a fuse? They're quite common in consumer electronics over here. I don't think they're particularly a European thing -- they're often found in far-eastern stuff. AFAIK they are just fast-acting wire-ended fuses. Nothing really special about them. -tony From wizard at voyager.net Sun May 6 17:43:27 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 18:43:27 -0400 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> , <417592.78084.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1178491407.6461.49.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Sat, 2007-05-05 at 15:12 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I note that Jeff Duntemann's got a book out called "Step by Step > Assembly". I'm not familiar with it, but do know Jeff's style of > writing from his DDJ articles. He's got a nice folksy feel to his > prose so the assembly book might be good. I agree with your assessment of Jeff Duntemann's style. I learned most easily from a 6809 book by Lance Leventhal -- he has written several, on a variety of processors. I wouldn't hesitate to buy any of them. By way of warning, however, I already knew how to program in assembly language for the 8080-Z80, CDC 6500, and Interdata IBM 360 clone by then, so I can't speak to Lance as a writer for newbies. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 17:55:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:55:18 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 5, 7 09:05:32 pm, Message-ID: <463DFA66.17421.289E4896@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 19:50, Tony Duell wrote: > That sounds as though your caard had a built-in hub (was it really 4 BNCs > and one RJ45? I tould have thought the other way round would be more useful). It was a long night--yes--it was 4 UTP and 1 BNC connector. AMD LANCE chipset. It wasn't a bad idea--if you were running a server for a small network, it did away with the need for a hub. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 18:04:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 16:04:44 -0700 Subject: ICP N75 substitute In-Reply-To: References: <463DEE37.1938.286EAEF0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 6, 7 03:03:19 pm, Message-ID: <463DFC9C.1087.28A6E823@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 23:24, Tony Duell wrote: > Incientally, how do you get it as 2.7A? http://www.electronicsic.com/fuse.htm ...and a host of other places. From what I can garner from the Rohm website, "N" means "normal blow"; "F" means "fast blow". > AFAIK they are just fast-acting wire-ended fuses. Nothing really special > about them. I was hooking an older 5.25" drive onto the interface and I suspect the draw may have been a bit much. I'll give the PF 3 a go, since I've got a pile of those. Looks like this is sort of a poor man's overcurrent detector. :( Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 18:30:23 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:30:23 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Scott Austin wrote: > All, > > About a month ago I picked a nice stash from a freecycler wishing to > clean out. The summary list: Partial Apple II, II+, IIe and lots of h/w > accessories and software. The fuller list is at the end of this entry. Nice. > Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple > system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most > capability, but the II is more significant. That's pretty much it - the IIe is probably the easiest to run across, still, the II+ is easier to repair than the IIe (no custom VLSI), and the II is interesting because it's rarer than the II+, even if it has slightly more primitive graphics (simultaneous colors). > Question 2: Which accessories are significant to keep (you know, but > hate to say it: "VERY R at RE!!!")? Some > things may be rare, but I doubt I'd use them. For example, the Switch-A-Slot > (see http://tinyurl.com/2m8b3e ) The Super Serial card is a must if you want to attach a serial printer or move software to and from the machine via serial port (and don't want to use the joystick interface 'bitbanging' routines). The IEEE488 card is rare, but unless you want to talk to a PET printer or a lab voltmeter, of dubious use to the casual Apple user. If that older Disk ][ card has DOS 3.2 PROMs, that might be a keeper; otherwise, just keep one Disk ][ card per CPU you keep. I think a typical installation for a II+ would have been a language card, possibly a CP/M card, a Disk ][ card, and perhaps either a Super Serial card or a Grappler-type parallel printer interface with onboard buffer. We always appreciated the 16K (later 64K, IIRC) buffer on the Grappler-like card we had because once the last of the file hit the Grappler, you got control of the machine again, and could go do other things while the last few pages spewed out of the printer. I put a lot of hours on the Apple II+, many more than the IIe that followed. Each model has its appeal (no pun intended), but I don't recall the last time I saw a straight-II. Seen lots of II+es, and lots more IIes. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 18:50:09 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 16:50:09 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:17 PM +0100 5/6/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'm in the same boat - Amigas with 10base2 only. Pretty much anything >> > else I have that does networking has 10base2 _and_ an AUI at least. >> > >> >> My A3000 came with a network card with rj45, very lucky there. > >I am wondering how hard it owuld be to remove the 10base2 transceiver >chip from the Amiga's network card and kludge on a 10baseT transciever >circuit. If the former is something standard like an 8392, it should be >pretty easy. Personally I wouldn't be willing to risk an Amiga NIC with such an attempt, I get the impression that they're fairly uncommon. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 18:52:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:52:02 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <004501c7900a$f960c590$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'm in the same boat - Amigas with 10base2 only. Pretty much anything > > > else I have that does networking has 10base2 _and_ an AUI at least. > > > > > > > My A3000 came with a network card with rj45, very lucky there. > > I am wondering how hard it owuld be to remove the 10base2 transceiver > chip from the Amiga's network card and kludge on a 10baseT transciever > circuit. If the former is something standard like an 8392, it should be > pretty easy. It would probably be fairly easy to do that - ISTR the A2065 had a pretty standard LANCE implementation. The host side was Amiga-specific, but I expect there weren't any clever tricks on the media side of the LANCE chip. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 18:52:18 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 16:52:18 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <463DCC13.13581.27E953A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 3:52 PM -0400 5/6/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 5/6/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 6 May 2007 at 14:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> The only ones I've seen, are 10Mbit only as well. I have one I use >>> with 1 x 10base2, 8 x 10baseT, and 1 x AUI that I've slapped a >>> 10baseFL transceiver onto. >> >>I've got a PCI 10/100 card with an Intel chipset on it and it's got >>both coax and UTP connectors on it, so they *do* exist. > >I think some of the context got whacked - I was referring to hubs, not NICs. > >I haven't seen a 10/100 hub with 10base2. While the context got whacked, that's the first I've ever heard of a 10/100 NIC with a Coax connection. I assume that it would only be able to use the UTP at 100Mbit? With the Coax being 10Mbit only. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 18:56:40 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:56:40 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Personally I wouldn't be willing to risk an Amiga NIC with such an > attempt, I get the impression that they're fairly uncommon. They are somewhat uncommon, but I think you could do it with a daughter-card socket extension for the LANCE chip - plug the board into the socket and the chip into the board, and take 10baseT off of the new board. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 18:58:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 16:58:44 -0700 Subject: ICP N75 substitute In-Reply-To: <463DFC9C.1087.28A6E823@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463DEE37.1938.286EAEF0@cclist.sydex.com>, , <463DFC9C.1087.28A6E823@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463E0944.14995.28D85B5B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007. Tony said-- > AFAIK they are just fast-acting wire-ended fuses. Nothing really special > about them. The PF3 did the trick! I dropped the idea of a 5.25" on the PCW (maybe later when the mood strikes me to add a PSU for the drive) and found a Teac FD235F with a READY jumper that seems to work just fine. Now the PCW seems to hate my (incorrectly formatted) disks just fine. Are there any images of bootable PCW diskettes posted anywhere? I'm not wild about Locoscript, but CP/M might be useful. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 18:59:20 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:59:20 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Tony Duell wrote: > []] I have an old device desigend to link a pair of transceivers (it has > a couple of AUI connectors on the back). It's quite complicated, there's > a RAM-based state machine linked to a couple of ehternet encoder/decoder > ICs, and a Z80-based microconttoller system to load the state machine RAM. I have something which appears to do the same job - link two AUI ports together - it's larger than 2 transceivers, but I don't think it's quite as complex inside - I thought it was just some clocking and some signal buffering. I'll have to crack one open and see what's inside. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 19:01:35 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:01:35 -0700 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 1:58 PM -0700 5/6/07, Scott Austin wrote: >Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple >system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most >capability, but the II is more significant. If I was to choose, I'd go with the IIe, especially after looking at the list of HW. That Mockingboard is a soundcard I believe. >Question 2: Which accessories are significant to keep (you know, but >hate to say it: "VERY R at RE!!!")? Some >things may be rare, but I doubt I'd use them. For example, the Switch-A-Slot >(see http://tinyurl.com/2m8b3e ) Oh, now that's way cool! I've never even heard of such a thing, and with some of the cards you have you might want to keep it as well. Good grief, I just read through them again, I'm not sure what to suggest. At the very least these 4 cards. Realistically I'm inclined to recommend keeping all the cards. >Transware Accelerator (Is this a CPU accelerator?) >CMS SCSI II >Apple Super Serial Card II >Apple IIe 80 Col/64K Memory Expansion I'd also recommend keeping all the software and books. Very nice haul! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 19:11:58 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:11:58 -0700 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:30 PM -0400 5/6/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: >want to use the joystick interface 'bitbanging' routines). The >IEEE488 card is rare, but unless you want to talk to a PET printer or >a lab voltmeter, of dubious use to the casual Apple user. If that Based on the AD card, and a couple others, I'm guessing that at least one of the systems was used in a lab environment. >followed. Each model has its appeal (no pun intended), but I don't >recall the last time I saw a straight-II. Seen lots of II+es, and >lots more IIes. I have every Apple "Apple II" model in my collection with the exception of a Straight-II, a IIc+, and I don't believe I have a Woz or ROM3 IIgs (it seems to me I got a Woz, but never made it home). I saw a IIc+ once, and still regret not buying it, I've never seen a straight-II for sale. I used to have several clones as well, but I think they were all given away. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun May 6 19:23:00 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 21:23:00 -0300 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0a0301c7903e$2d7dcde0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >>Transware Accelerator (Is this a CPU accelerator?) Transwarp maybe? It was a 3.6MHz accelerator that made wonders to the //e. I'd love to have another //e...I miss mine! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 6 20:43:52 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:43:52 -0400 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDB@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDB@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <463E8458.3090107@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Well that's interesting... > >It would seem that as long as Mentec choose to ignore non-commercial use >you can do (within reason) what you like. I did say pdp preserver as >opposed to RT, RSX or RSTS preserver. >However I must admit to having worked in digital SWS and to having been >part of the VMS marketing group I do have an interest in the software >side. > Jerome Fine replies: Hold on - I stated that everything being suggested was ONLY with regard to RT-11. While I also agree that eventually RSX-11 and RSTS/E will probably be handled in the same manner, that does not seem to have been the case in the past. In particular, I have the impression that RSX-11 distributions, although officially approved of in the same license as RT-11 for use with the DEC emulator, always remained difficult to obtain. However, since I never attempted to use RSX-11, I can't comment. On the other hand, RT-11 was very quickly available for download as soon as that license to run V05.03 of RT-11 and prior versions was made explicitly known to this list and certain newsgroups. >DEC were quite keen on educational computing and that's how they would >have viewed a hobbyist program. As HP now effectivly own what was DEC I >assume the agreement is now between them and Mentec. > It does not really seem that either HP or Mentec are interested in spending money on lawyers. HP and Mentec do seem to be very concerned that if any of the latest versions of the PDP-11 operating systems which include RT-11, RSX-11 and RSTS/E are made available free of charge and without a formal license being signed to even hobby users for strictly non-commercial use that the result would also be free use for commercial users. At least that is my assumption since I can't think of anything else that might cause a problem. Can anyone else comment on what might happen if Mentec were to allow hobby users to freely run without any restrictions either V05.03 of RT-11 or possibly even all RT-11 software, in particular with regard to commercial users of RT-11 or for hobby users of RSX-11 and RSTS/E? >It seems that many efforts to set up a hobbyist (or collectors program) >have come to nought due to Mentec seeing no profit in the arrangement. > That is also my assumption. It was also my assumption that hobby programs allow students to become capable of supporting commercial systems as well as producing interesting enhancements for and finding bugs in operating systems. As long as the operating system software is still being sold and producing sufficient profit, a hobby program is often a benefit and support to the operating system. Once the profit level becomes too low, starting a hobby program seems no longer useful and perhaps that is how HP and Mentec view a hobby program for the PDP-11 software which Mentec handles. >Needless to say as a DEC hardware collector a simulator is of no >interest to me. > > I am always confused by this viewpoint. Please explain. If you don't really care about the software, then why do you care which software is being used by the hardware? In fact, why is it necessary to run any software at all? I would have expected that the XXDP diagnostics would be more than sufficient to exercise the actual DEC hardware and provide the feeling that the actual DEC hardware is being used. On the other hand, I am quite obviously interested in the functionally of the software and the manner in which the various software components relate to each. As a result, an emulator is often much more useful than the actual DEC hardware. In respect of using E11, about the only real difference that I notice is that the RT-11 programs tend to execute about 100 times as fast on a current 3 GHz Pentium 4 as on a PDP-11/93, including both CPU and I/O, indeed especially disk I/O; the available storage is also likely to be measured in the 1000 times capacity since 500 GigiByte hard disk drives now cost less than the 600 MegaByte Maxtor ESDI XT8760E that I purchased for $ 600 at an end-of-line sale around 10 to 15 years ago. As a result, one of the enhancements that I plan for RT-11 is to allow up to 65536 RT-11 partitions which will allow for hard disk drives up to 2 TeraBytes. Anyone interested? >>Hi All >> I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the >>rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they >>seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site >>that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. No >> >>mention of pdp anything. >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >First of all, please remember I am ONLY interested in RT-11. And while >I have had contact with and used a bit of RSX-11 and a very extensive >amount of RSTS/E, I was never responsible of a system which ran RSX-11 >or RSTS/E. Which is the primary reason that I never became proficient >enough to maintain either an RSX-11 or a RSTS/E system. On the other >hand, I may now know RT-11 as well as some of the top RT-11 developers >knew RT-11 during the 1980s. > >As for why Mentec no longer actively supports any of the PDP-11 systems, >I venture to guess that it is no longer profitable. > > > >>As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around >>how >>RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have >>not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they >>could help us poor pdp preservers. >> >> >> >Mentec has helped the poor PDP-11 preservers. Unfortunately, it is not >obvious since the help is more in not causing those poor PDP-11 >preservers any difficulties as opposed to being proactive by making the >operating systems generally available such as Borland products are at >present. Also an example is the VMS hobby program which Mentec does not >have. > >In addition, as others have mentioned in their replies, it seems very >doubtful that Mentec really did "totally own" the >PDP-11 operating systems. Unfortunately, it seems highly probable that >the terms of the agreement between Mentec and DEC required the parties >to maintain confidentiality since I can't see why those terms have never >been publicly disclosed - unless those terms were so detrimental to the >users that neither party wanted to admit the mistakes in the lack of a >PDP-11 hobby program in the face of the VMS hobby license program. But >what did happen did, what did not happen did not - the stories and >interpretations that many of us make up about what happened are probably >90% fiction and are no longer even important. > >BUT, Mentec did make older versions of the operating systems available >for legal non-commercial use under what was at the time a DEC owned >emulator. It certainly seemed questionable at the time and it may be >even more questionable at present, but Mentec has chosen to make no >challenge to the use of those older versions of the operating systems >under the current name of that DEC emulator which has evolved to become >SIMH. In addition, Mentec also seems to be ignoring the legal >requirement for a transfer of any operating system license to the new >owner of any old PDP-11 hardware so long as, at least as far I can >interpret, the new owner is non-commercial. Certainly there have been >numerous discussions on classiccmp (one is going on right now about a >single RL02 system) over PDP-11 use of the RT-11 operating system (i.e. >NOT under SIMH) and I can't remember any recent protests from Mentec in >this regard. > >Any finally, while the RSX-11 and RSTS/E operating systems are much more >tightly controlled and not very easily available, almost 10 years ago, >Megan Gentry, a former RT-11 developer, put a zip file of V05.03 of >RT-11 up for general download with the explicit permission of the >individuals who had to provide that permission. V05.03 of RT-11 is the >last binary distribution allowed under the DEC emulator and by inference >under SIMH. There is also a CD version (an ISO file) which contains as >many as possible of the RT-11 binary versions as could reasonably be >found for all of V05.03 of RT-11 and prior. Any for those individuals >who are legally licensed to run the latest version of RT-11, V05.07 >released in October of 1998 or just under 9 years ago, there is also a >CD containing the rest of the RT-11 binary distributions. The latter CD >was requested by a university who was legally licensed to use and >already had a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 and was legally entitled to a >backup of all of the RT-11 binary distributions. > >So - I don't really think that there are any "poor pdp preservers" >as far as RT-11 is concerned. In point of fact, I have personally found >ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in the last 5 years in: >(a) Preserving RT-11, >(b) Fixing any bugs in RT-11 >(c) Making any enhancements in RT-11 >Of course, for individuals in the know, most of them already have >sufficiently preserved what they want of RT-11. On the other hand, even >though I have made a number of vital bug fixes to >RT-11 (for problems that crash RT-11) along with other minor problems as >well as some extensive enhancements, I have yet to find anyone who is >even interested in a Y3K for RT-11, let alone someone who would be >interested in participating. > >Of course, Y3K may already have been done, the enhancements that I have >already completed may have been duplicated along with many other >enhancements and the bugs fixed as well and distributed to the users of >RT-11. Perhaps I just don't know that it has all occurred without a >word of it reaching my eyes and ears. > >But, as a result, I have place (a), (b) and (c) into a lower priority >and focused on attempting something even less useful, i.e. confirming >the value of pi(10^18) using a sieve program running under RT-11 with a >view to attempting to determine pi(10^24). When I find that it will >take a million years to finish the calculations for pi(10^24) with >current computers, I may shift back to (a), (b) and (c) if I can't find >something even less useful than knowing the value for pi(10^24). > >On the other hand, if anyone is really interested, drop me a line. If >anyone really knows why Mentec does not have a hobby program for PDP-11 >operating systems, let us know. Just don't complain about RT-11 and >Mentec since nothing that Mentec seems to be doing at present interferes >with "poor pdp preservers" >as far as RT-11 is concerned. In 16 more years, which will be 25 years >after V05.07 of RT-11 was released, I very seriously doubt that Mentec >will care if every hobby user who wants a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 is >using it on real DEC hardware, let alone if there is a running emulator >on what goes for a PC in the year 2023 when I will be 84 years old if I >am still kicking. > >As for commercial sites still running RT-11, if they don't already have >the Y2K compliant V05.07 of RT-11, then I very much doubt that they will >require V05.07 in the year 2023. >And if those commercial sites are managing with the current bugs in >RT-11 9 years after V05.07 was released, well ... > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine >-- >If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has >been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the >semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four >characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 20:47:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 21:47:05 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:58 PM -0700 5/6/07, Scott Austin wrote: > >Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple > >system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most > >capability, but the II is more significant. > > If I was to choose, I'd go with the IIe, especially after looking at > the list of HW. That Mockingboard is a soundcard I believe. It is a sound card. I forgot to mention that you might want to keep it. ISTR it's something like a 4-channel software-driven multi-voice sound card - unusual in a day when "sound" was either a CB2 shiftregister output from a 6522 or a single-bit like the speaker output on a PC. They weren't very common, but back in the day, they were cool to play with. -ethan From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 6 20:56:28 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:56:28 -0400 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 06 May 2007 15:39:12 EDT." <20070506193911.GA14704@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <200705070156.l471uS39011241@mwave.heeltoe.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >Richard seemed to be claiming that there was such a variety today of >commonly-availbe general-purpose CPUs (because of FPGAs), but maybe I >just mis-understood him. I wish that were more true. FPGA's are pretty limiting, and most cpu's tend to be very "riscy" with limited pipelining and small register files. but then again, there are a lot of 8 bit and PIC fpga designs out there, as well as number of 16 bit designs, so there is some variety. most tend (from what i've seen, which is not a lot) tend to be "direct decode", i.e. no microcode with a tight register/alu pathway. Most of what I see are commercial cpu's using licensed IP. I'd like to see a lot more application specific micro sequencers, but that just because I like microcode :-) -brad From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun May 6 20:59:19 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:59:19 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463E87F7.2000709@nktelco.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have something which appears to do the same job - link two AUI ports > together - it's larger than 2 transceivers, but I don't think it's > quite as complex inside - I thought it was just some clocking and some > signal buffering. I'll have to crack one open and see what's inside. There are schematics for DEC's network concentrator DELNI with 8 AUI ports on bitsavers. -chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun May 6 21:05:03 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 22:05:03 -0400 Subject: DEC XXDP ZRQC?? source listing Message-ID: <463E894F.1010801@nktelco.net> I am looking for the source listings for the RQDX3 disk formatting utility ZRQC from XXDP. I am wondering if they are part of the diagnostic micro-fiches. I think there are a couple people on the list with copies of the fiches. I want to try formatting some non-DEC hard drives. A search of the web shows that some have been successful in patching the drive description tables to format a drive with non-standard geometry, but I think getting the parameters for Bad Block Replacement right is the tough part. Maybe the formatter sources will help. -chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun May 6 21:06:56 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 22:06:56 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives Message-ID: <463E89C0.2000702@nktelco.net> Can the Pro380 be used with RX33 drives in place of the RX50? The Pro technical manual doesn't say anything about the RX33. It also doesn't say that there is a way to change the floppy data rate, so I am guessing it does not support them. Can the Pro380 be used with any ST506/ST412 type hard disks or just RD50, RD51, and RD52? I have a couple RD32 and some non-DEC drives and am curious if any of the could be used with it. How do you format a drive for a Pro? I never noticed any support for Professionals in XXDP? Was there a utility in P/OS for that purpose? -chuck From james.rice at gmail.com Sun May 6 21:21:11 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:21:11 -0600 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <463E87F7.2000709@nktelco.net> References: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> <463E87F7.2000709@nktelco.net> Message-ID: I think this may be what he is looking for. For a while Milan was part of Digi. http://www.milan.com/TransitionNetworks/Products2/Family.aspx?Name=J%2fE-CX-TBT-02 I have found them for a few bucks in surplus shops before. I may still have a few of them packed away somewhere. > > > -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From spectre at floodgap.com Sun May 6 21:47:47 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "May 6, 7 05:11:58 pm" Message-ID: <200705070247.l472llU7011558@floodgap.com> > I have every Apple "Apple II" model in my collection with the > exception of a Straight-II, a IIc+, and I don't believe I have a Woz > or ROM3 IIgs (it seems to me I got a Woz, but never made it home). I have the best of both worlds -- a ROM 03 in a Woz case! The SCSI drive, RAM card and TransWarp GS don't hurt either. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one. -- Phil White -------- From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 6 22:08:21 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 23:08:21 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463E9825.4080207@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I have every Apple "Apple II" model in my collection with the exception > of a Straight-II, a IIc+, and I don't believe I have a Woz or ROM3 IIgs > (it seems to me I got a Woz, but never made it home). I saw a IIc+ > once, and still regret not buying it, I've never seen a straight-II for > sale. I used to have several clones as well, but I think they were all > given away. I'm actually looking for a monitor for my //c+, if anyone comes across one they don't want for themselves. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 22:35:49 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:35:49 -0700 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: <463E9825.4080207@gmail.com> References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <463E9825.4080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:08 PM -0400 5/6/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >I'm actually looking for a monitor for my //c+, if anyone comes >across one they don't want for themselves. The LCD or the CRT? The CRT's used to be semi-easy to come by, the LCD is another of those things I've never seen. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 22:46:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 23:46:33 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <463E9825.4080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:08 PM -0400 5/6/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >I'm actually looking for a monitor for my //c+, if anyone comes > >across one they don't want for themselves. > > The LCD or the CRT? The CRT's used to be semi-easy to come by, the > LCD is another of those things I've never seen. I've seen (and bought) the CRTs at Dayton, but that was a few years back. I did see one LCD once, but it was on display, not for sale. :-( -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 6 22:46:56 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 20:46:56 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463E2883.6020108@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: >From: Philip Pemberton > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>The ones I'm thinking of are 8" systems, where the drive has separate >>outputs for SECTOR and INDEX. There's no compelling reason to pay >>attention to INDEX in many applications--and some systems reflect this. > >OK then, looks like I *do* need to read the SA800 docs then... > Hi Not all 8 inch drives select out the index from the sectors. Only the ones that say they are for hard sectored ( although, my Nicolet 1080 uses the type that doesn't separate the two and is hard sectored ). I'd have to reread the documents on the SA drives but there was something like the dash number that made the difference. The 800/801 was with and without data/clock separator ( may have these backwards ). Look it up. The ones that state they were for hard sectored have the separator. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Download Messenger. Join the i?m Initiative. Help make a difference today. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07 From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 6 23:02:02 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 00:02:02 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <463E9825.4080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <463EA4BA.8010605@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I'm actually looking for a monitor for my //c+, if anyone comes across >> one they don't want for themselves. > > The LCD or the CRT? The CRT's used to be semi-easy to come by, the LCD > is another of those things I've never seen. Either would do, but I'd prefer if I could find one in platinum instead of beige, so that it matches my //c+. Of course, I'd love to find an LCD, but I'm not holding my breath. Peace... Sridhar From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun May 6 23:34:11 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 06:34:11 +0200 Subject: Some Vax 3800 questions ... Message-ID: <463EAC43.1000109@bluewin.ch> Today I tried out my new (18 year old) Microvax 3800 . (tk70, ethernet, rf31, rf72, scsi ). I removed the KDA50 boards. The system tries to boot into VMS5.4, but hangs because it seems to look for diskarrays that are no longer present. Is it possible to boot into a root mode to change the startup behaviour ? Of course passwords are not available. I am also looking for some brackets to mount the RF's into the BA-213. ( The drives came from a ba-400 chassis ) Or are other smart mounting solutions posssible ? Finally, are DSSI and SCSI terminators identical ? To make place for the 3800, a Microvax II/gpx has to go . Working, needs new disk, located in Zurich, Switzerland. Jos Dreesen From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 6 23:41:48 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 00:41:48 -0400 Subject: Some Vax 3800 questions ... In-Reply-To: <463EAC43.1000109@bluewin.ch> References: <463EAC43.1000109@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200705070041.48136.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 07 May 2007 00:34, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Today I tried out my new (18 year old) Microvax 3800 . > (tk70, ethernet, rf31, rf72, scsi ). I removed the KDA50 boards. > > The system tries to boot into VMS5.4, but hangs because it seems to > look for diskarrays that are no longer present. > > Is it possible to boot into a root mode to change the startup > behaviour ? Of course passwords are not available. Look at the OpenVMS FAQ (somewhere on HP's website, google should find it) on how to recover a lost system password. The same technique should let you in before the system tries to mount any disks. > Finally, are DSSI and SCSI terminators identical ? No. If you plug something SCSI into the DSSI bus, you'll likely blow the termination power fuse on the CPU board (I know because I did it once myself, long ago ;). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon May 7 00:09:51 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 22:09:51 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Jason T wrote: > I've spotted this nice setup locally, wondering if the guy is asking > way too much for it: > > http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/sys/322279611.html > > If the link goes dead, it's an IBM 5110 PC, 5103 Printer and 5114 dual > floppy unit. > > Yeah, I know, it's worth what people will pay for it. But I don't > even see any completed on ePay, so I can't begin to gauge the > appropriate value. Those big floppy drives are calling me, though... I think it is cheap. The last few I saw sold for over $1000. I saw one go at $600 that did not work and had no accessories. This has the large disk drive and a printer. I think it is good deal. The OBO (or best offer) means he may take less. I have never seen a disk drive unit, and hav e had three 5XXXs go through my hands. Ask before it dissappears. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon May 7 00:12:32 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 22:12:32 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Is that a model 1 (with built in tape drive) or a model 2 (without tape > drive)? > Looks like the model 1 with the 1/2 inch tape drive to me. What keyboard is it is another question? APL was a special and is more valuable. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon May 7 00:24:24 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 22:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <463E89C0.2000702@nktelco.net> References: <463E89C0.2000702@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2007, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > Can the Pro380 be used with any ST506/ST412 type hard disks or just RD50, > RD51, and RD52? I have a couple RD32 and some non-DEC drives and am curious > if any of the could be used with it. How do you format a drive for a Pro? I > never noticed any support for Professionals in XXDP? Was there a utility in > P/OS for that purpose? You're pretty much limited to what the driver supports unless you want to do some hacking. I've used a 350 with an ST-251, but I worked over the RT-11 device driver. And I never did get it working exactly right; every now and then the driver would make a zooping noise like it was doing a long seek when going to adjacent cylinders. Never did figure that one out. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From fsmith at ladylinux.com Mon May 7 00:27:52 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 01:27:52 -0400 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705070516.l475FCnT089484@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705070516.l475FCnT089484@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200705070127.52733.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Monday 07 May 2007 01:16:10 am cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: Hiya, I am bit confused by this whole Mentec thread on one point. I have a 11/23+ here and with it the original DEC labled RSX11 and RT11 media that came with it. Am I allowed to use these distributions. ?? I am assuming yes. Is this thread pretty much about others reusing RSX11 and RT11 freely in a hobbist sense without original media ?? I guess what I am confused about is that most every PDP I ever saw came with RT11 and or RSX11 bundled. So whats the license deal ?? -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 7 00:29:32 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 22:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If I was to choose, I'd go with the IIe, especially after looking at > > the list of HW. That Mockingboard is a soundcard I believe. > > It is a sound card. I forgot to mention that you might want to keep > it. ISTR it's something like a 4-channel software-driven multi-voice > sound card - unusual in a day when "sound" was either a CB2 > shiftregister output from a 6522 or a single-bit like the speaker > output on a PC. > > They weren't very common, but back in the day, they were cool to play with. I remember pining for one of those things to use with Ultima V. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 7 00:57:31 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 00:57:31 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705062257n400d532dgdb3874035ab9a4dd@mail.gmail.com> On 5/7/07, Paxton Hoag wrote: > > Is that a model 1 (with built in tape drive) or a model 2 (without tape > > drive)? > > > > Looks like the model 1 with the 1/2 inch tape drive to me. What > keyboard is it is another question? APL was a special and is more > valuable. I don't think they one he has linked is the one for sale. That's someone else's machine. I've asked him about the tape drive and keyboard in email, though. Speaking of APL keyboards, I ran across a IBM Model M with APL keycaps at a hamfest last summer. I didn't even know what it was at first. Made my day when I got home and looked it up :) From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun May 6 14:22:46 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:22:46 +0100 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Ooops missed out a step! The cheap hub with the BNC is 10Mbit but its connected to another hub that is a switch ie does both 10Mbits and 100Mbits. Now you can go from BNC (Thin ethernet) at 10Mbs to UTP at 100Mbs Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 06 May 2007 17:31 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: RE: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? At 5:18 AM +0100 5/6/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Get a cheap hub that has both 10/100baseT and BNC. Mine is a Dynamode >DM-809STP. I use it to convert the BNC output from my VAX to 100BaseT >on my network. How common are 10/100BaseT Hubs with a BNC connection? I know I've never seen one. Any hub I've seen with a BNC connection has been limited to 10Mbit. The original posters problem just happens to be half the reason I even care about 10Base2, my Amiga 3000's NIC only has a BNC connection, I also have this problem with my DECserver 90L+. Though I'm not using either at the moment. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sun May 6 15:01:48 2007 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 22:01:48 +0200 Subject: Some Vax 3800 questions ... Message-ID: <463E342C.4030604@bluewin.ch> Today I tried out my new (18 year old) Microvax 3800 . (tk70, ethernet, rf31, rf72, scsi ). I removed the KDA50 boards. The system tries to boot into VMS5.4, but hangs because it seems to look for diskarrays that are no longer present. Is it possible to boot into a root mode to change the startup behaviour ? Of course passwords are not available. I am also looking for some brackets to mount the RF's into the BA-213. ( The drives came from a ba-400 chassis ) Or are other smart mounting solutions posssible ? Finally, are DSSI and SCSI terminators identical ? To make place for the 3800, a Microvax II/gpx has to go . Working, needs new disk, located in Zurich, Switzerland. Jos Dreesen From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sun May 6 15:17:28 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 22:17:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <19102.217.225.85.127.1178482648.squirrel@217.225.85.127> Zane H. Healy said: > At 5:18 AM +0100 5/6/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>Get a cheap hub that has both 10/100baseT and BNC. Mine is a Dynamode >>DM-809STP. I use it to convert the BNC output from my VAX to 100BaseT on >>my network. > > How common are 10/100BaseT Hubs with a BNC connection? I know I've > never seen one. Any hub I've seen with a BNC connection has been > limited to 10Mbit. I'd also point this out. Cheapernet wasn't specified for 100MBit, so a hub that transfers 100Mbit won't do this on the BNC connector - or it would have to be a switch that could translate the rates. But at the time 100MBit switches became cheap enough, there was already an infrastructure for twisted pair, and noone normally needed BNC connections anymore. -- Holger From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 04:10:20 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:10:20 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463E417A.7010008@yahoo.co.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com>, <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> <463DAB9A.3436.276A7B2E@cclist.sydex.com> <463E2883.6020108@philpem.me.uk> <463E417A.7010008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <463EECFC.5080501@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, any chance of making the connector more of a CPU bus, with a > handful of address lines? Then you just plug in a little module, one per > floppy drive, to give that drive an ID on the bus. Sounds like a good plan. Adding stuff like that isn't hard - because the CPLD only handles read, write and indexing, everything else (drive selection, density select output, motor on/off signalling, basically everything that doesn't need fantastically accurate timing) is handled by a microcontroller. Adding more I/Os at TTL level is just a case of adding more links from the MCU to the output ports. The big problem is that this is going to add an extra connector to the drive interface box... > My thinking is that supporting just two drive types isn't enough in a > general archive box, and even four might not cut it. The only overhead > is a data cable per floppy drive, and a few buffer / address decoding > ICs... Would eight drives be enough for you, or would you prefer sixteen? :) Open-collector or TTL outputs? > The module would have a standard 34 pin connector for drive signals on > it, or I suppose there might be special-case variants for 8" or for some > really oddball setups. What I don't want to end up doing is designing something that needs a box full of addon modules to use, or becomes useless if those modules are lost. The plan is to build something that can handle 80% of the work as-is, then do the other 20% with the help of AOMs. > (I was tempted to say you could make the modules plug straight into the > back of the drives, similar to SCSI SCA adapters, and then just have a > single bus cable connecting them all up, but the lack of any standard as > to placement of a floppy drive's data connector makes that problematic) So use an IDC header or something, have the board push into the drive, then have a flylead connecting up the power. Did I mention USB didn't have enough oomph to power the CPLD, MCU *and* a disc drive as well? You're going to need a 5V + 12V + whatever PSU for the drive, but the box itself will snaffle power from the laptop/desktop machine you've got it hooked up to. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 7 04:37:55 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:37:55 +0100 Subject: DEC XXDP ZRQC?? source listing In-Reply-To: <463E894F.1010801@nktelco.net> References: <463E894F.1010801@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <463EF373.5070702@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/05/2007 03:05, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > I am looking for the source listings for the RQDX3 disk formatting > utility ZRQC from XXDP. I am wondering if they are part of the > diagnostic micro-fiches. I think there are a couple people on the list > with copies of the fiches. I've got the fiche, but no way to scan it or print it :-( The listing is quite long. > I want to try formatting some non-DEC hard drives. A search of the web > shows that some have been successful in patching the drive description > tables to format a drive with non-standard geometry, but I think getting > the parameters for Bad Block Replacement right is the tough part. Maybe > the formatter sources will help. I've done that, a long time ago (1991). I can't remember the details, but I recall I had to understand a whole lot of things in the table that the formatter uses. Something like 34 entries, not just half a dozen. Some are easy, of course, like number of heads, cylinders; some are easy to copy from other entries, like the gap lengths; some aren't hard to work out, like the "media word" which is an encoded version of the drive name. It gets a bit more interesting if you try to do the same with the tables in the RQDX2 ROMs, which I also did. And the RQDX2 ROMs contain a checksum :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 7 04:37:58 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:37:58 +0100 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <463E89C0.2000702@nktelco.net> References: <463E89C0.2000702@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <463EF376.1060009@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/05/2007 03:06, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > Can the Pro380 be used with RX33 drives in place of the RX50? The Pro > technical manual doesn't say anything about the RX33. It also doesn't > say that there is a way to change the floppy data rate, so I am guessing > it does not support them. I don't think so, but others may know more. > Can the Pro380 be used with any ST506/ST412 type hard disks or just > RD50, RD51, and RD52? I have a couple RD32 and some non-DEC drives and > am curious if any of the could be used with it. How do you format a > drive for a Pro? I never noticed any support for Professionals in XXDP? > Was there a utility in P/OS for that purpose? I guess you need to format it the way you would for an RQDX1, with XXDP. I do know that it shares some low-level code with the early RQDXs, and uses similar sniffers to determine the drive type, so you can't just use any drive -- it has to look like one of the ones a Pro supports. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 05:43:30 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 11:43:30 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463F02D2.402@philpem.me.uk> dwight elvey wrote: > I'd have to reread the documents on the SA drives but there > was something like the dash number that made the difference. > The 800/801 was with and without data/clock separator ( may > have these backwards ). You're absolutely correct (according to the Shugart SA800 OEM manual on Bitsavers) - the SA800 only provides the Index pulse, the SA801 also provides the Sector pulse, and splits the sector pulses from the index pulses. Strange that the SA800 only provides an index pulse once per revolution - I guess it's intended for soft-sector discs. Given that there's no indexing on the hub like there is on 3.5" drives, the SA800 would probably output one index pulse every time an index hole was detected - if you used soft-sector discs that would be one pulse per rev, or 32+1 pulses if you used 32-sector hard-sector discs. All adds to the fun, I guess :) Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 7 06:16:51 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:16:51 +0100 Subject: Some Vax 3800 questions ... In-Reply-To: <463E342C.4030604@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 6/5/07 21:01, "Jos Dreesen" wrote: > Is it possible to boot into a root mode to change the startup behaviour > ? Of course passwords are not available. >>> b/1 SYSBOOT> set startup_p1 "MIN" SYSBOOT> set uafalt 1 SYSBOOT> c . . . Log in as system and ignore the 2 password prompts. There'll be a problem if the system actually DOES have an alternate UAF file! $ set proc/priv=all $ set term/inq/perm $ define sysuaf sys$common:[sysexe]sysuaf.dat $ mc authorize UAF> mo system/pass=password/nowpdlif UAF> exit Then you can edit SYSTARTUP_V5.com and SYLOGICALS.COM to take out stuff that the machine no longer has and shut the system down. >>>b/1 SYSBOOT> set startup_p1 "" SYSBOOT> set uafalt 0 SYSBOOT> c Then you can log in with the new password. > I am also looking for some brackets to mount the RF's into the BA-213. > ( The drives came from a ba-400 chassis ) Or are other smart mounting > solutions posssible ? > > Finally, are DSSI and SCSI terminators identical ? No, as Pat points out DSSI is very susceptible to fuse blowing, but the VAX engineers obviously knew people would do things to upset it - the 2a pico fuse is easily accessible on the back of the console plate (behind where you plug in the console cable IIRC) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 7 06:29:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 06:29:46 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F02D2.402@philpem.me.uk> References: <463F02D2.402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Strange that the SA800 only provides an index pulse once per revolution > - I guess it's intended for soft-sector discs. I believe that's right; the 801 is the hard-sectored version. The 850 is a double-sided version of the 800, and the 851 is a double-sided version of the 801. The 85x docs talk about MFM data though, whereas I don't think that the 80x docs do. I'm not sure if there's any good technical reason that the 80x drives can't handle an MFM data stream, though. (I think there might be some on-board "helper" circuitry for separating FM clock/data bits on at least some of the 80x flavours - but I think this can be jumpered out so that the controller does the stream encoding/decoding instead). > Given that there's no > indexing on the hub like there is on 3.5" drives, the SA800 would > probably output one index pulse every time an index hole was detected - > if you used soft-sector discs that would be one pulse per rev, or 32+1 > pulses if you used 32-sector hard-sector discs. Aren't hard-sectored 8" floppies available in more than just 32 sectors/track flavours? It's no big deal if your circuitry is analysing timing relationships to detect index pulse, but it obviously is if the circuitry's relying on timing windows as the timing will be different for a 32-sector disk versus one with n sectors... (I've only got the SA400 manual here, but the index/sector detection circuitry uses different timing depending on the media used - I presume because 5.25" hard sectored media was also available with different numbers of sectors per track) cheers Jules -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 7 06:44:48 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:44:48 +0100 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem Message-ID: Hi folks, Yesterday I picked up a Multitech Microprofessor II* plus some other goodies like an EACA Video Genie and lots of useful Sinclair QL bits, only a 7.5 hour round trip too :) On inspecting the MPF-II's box, I'm guessing it's been sat in a cupboard since 1985 as a lot of the internal walls have reacted badly with the PVC cables, some of them have been eaten through. What plastic can I wrap the cables in to avoid any more damage? Polythene wrap? Cheers, *never seen one in the wild before, or even on auction sites.....IIRC it was largely designed to be Apple ][ compatible..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From river at zip.com.au Mon May 7 07:42:16 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 22:42:16 +1000 Subject: SC/MP LCDS In-Reply-To: <200705070516.l475FCnb089484@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070507124216.F23888C07@mailproxy1.pacific.net.au> Hi, I don't know if you saw the SC/MP LCDS (Low Cost Development System) for sale on eBay (Australia) last week, but I bought it. I've been looking for one of these babies for a long time, and to find one for sale near where I live was too good to be true. Indeed! It's dead. Hehehehe, but it has all the parts and manuals, schematics and ROM listing. So, I guess I'm going to be busy in the next few weeks while I try and trace the fault. It's getting the right voltage, so I am assuming it's a bad chip or a ROM has gone bad. I'll get the CRO onto it and try and read the ROMS to find out what's going on. It came with both a SC/MP I and a SC/MP II processor card. Neither card works in the system so I am assuming it's a main board fault. I got a homebrew SC/MP system and some spare CPUs so I can chop and change and hopefully get this old system running. I'll let you know how I go. river From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon May 7 08:10:42 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 13:10:42 +0000 Subject: Chicago Goose Island Recycling Center Message-ID: <050720071310.25898.463F25520009A7650000652A22007354469DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> I went to the City of Chicago Recycling Center on Goose Island yesterday to drop off some old monitors. They do not sell what they take in, which is mainly PC's, monitors, and printers. Some get fixed up for schools, etc., but most get recycled. In true Chicago fashion, when I asked if they sold any of the intake, the attendant said no, but he had a cousin who I could buy some items from. All in all, not a place to get classic equipment, but a good place to dispose of dead monitors. Bob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 7 05:58:24 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 06:58:24 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives Message-ID: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> >Can the Pro380 be used with any ST506/ST412 type hard disks or just >RD50, RD51, and RD52? I have a couple RD32 and some non-DEC drives and >am curious if any of the could be used with it. How do you format a >drive for a Pro? I never noticed any support for Professionals in XXDP? > Was there a utility in P/OS for that purpose? > >-chuck > > The answer is yes but the drives have to have the propper low level format. That low level format cannot be done with a PC. It can be done on a Qbus system with RQDX1/2 controller and XXDP. The OS however expects only standard drvies. RD50 == ST506 RD51 == ST412 RD52 == D540 (qunatum) Other drives that have been used were RD31 == ST225 RD32 == ST250 Allison From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon May 7 06:07:19 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 12:07:19 +0100 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Jerome We seem to be converging on our views. The simulator is a simple issue. I want to see the old systems run and live again. If I had spent years restoring an old aircraft to flying condition I would not park it and use MS flight simulator instead! RT-11, RSX-11M & RSX11-D, and RSTS were all current when I joined DEC in 1975. The hardware to support them (Mentec excepted) has not been made for at least ten years. The answer may lie a little deeper. I think what may lie at the back of it is if they provide it they may be liable for any damage it does. Licenses do not change laws and the law of the land will always take precedence. It might be a risk based decision. However I'd still like to know what are the answers to the fundimental questions: 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? 3. Why have Mentec removed all mention of PDP-11 products from their web sites. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine Sent: 07 May 2007 02:44 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Mentec >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Well that's interesting... > >It would seem that as long as Mentec choose to ignore non-commercial >use you can do (within reason) what you like. I did say pdp preserver >as opposed to RT, RSX or RSTS preserver. >However I must admit to having worked in digital SWS and to having been >part of the VMS marketing group I do have an interest in the software >side. > Jerome Fine replies: Hold on - I stated that everything being suggested was ONLY with regard to RT-11. While I also agree that eventually RSX-11 and RSTS/E will probably be handled in the same manner, that does not seem to have been the case in the past. In particular, I have the impression that RSX-11 distributions, although officially approved of in the same license as RT-11 for use with the DEC emulator, always remained difficult to obtain. However, since I never attempted to use RSX-11, I can't comment. On the other hand, RT-11 was very quickly available for download as soon as that license to run V05.03 of RT-11 and prior versions was made explicitly known to this list and certain newsgroups. >DEC were quite keen on educational computing and that's how they would >have viewed a hobbyist program. As HP now effectivly own what was DEC I >assume the agreement is now between them and Mentec. > It does not really seem that either HP or Mentec are interested in spending money on lawyers. HP and Mentec do seem to be very concerned that if any of the latest versions of the PDP-11 operating systems which include RT-11, RSX-11 and RSTS/E are made available free of charge and without a formal license being signed to even hobby users for strictly non-commercial use that the result would also be free use for commercial users. At least that is my assumption since I can't think of anything else that might cause a problem. Can anyone else comment on what might happen if Mentec were to allow hobby users to freely run without any restrictions either V05.03 of RT-11 or possibly even all RT-11 software, in particular with regard to commercial users of RT-11 or for hobby users of RSX-11 and RSTS/E? >It seems that many efforts to set up a hobbyist (or collectors program) >have come to nought due to Mentec seeing no profit in the arrangement. > That is also my assumption. It was also my assumption that hobby programs allow students to become capable of supporting commercial systems as well as producing interesting enhancements for and finding bugs in operating systems. As long as the operating system software is still being sold and producing sufficient profit, a hobby program is often a benefit and support to the operating system. Once the profit level becomes too low, starting a hobby program seems no longer useful and perhaps that is how HP and Mentec view a hobby program for the PDP-11 software which Mentec handles. >Needless to say as a DEC hardware collector a simulator is of no >interest to me. > > I am always confused by this viewpoint. Please explain. If you don't really care about the software, then why do you care which software is being used by the hardware? In fact, why is it necessary to run any software at all? I would have expected that the XXDP diagnostics would be more than sufficient to exercise the actual DEC hardware and provide the feeling that the actual DEC hardware is being used. On the other hand, I am quite obviously interested in the functionally of the software and the manner in which the various software components relate to each. As a result, an emulator is often much more useful than the actual DEC hardware. In respect of using E11, about the only real difference that I notice is that the RT-11 programs tend to execute about 100 times as fast on a current 3 GHz Pentium 4 as on a PDP-11/93, including both CPU and I/O, indeed especially disk I/O; the available storage is also likely to be measured in the 1000 times capacity since 500 GigiByte hard disk drives now cost less than the 600 MegaByte Maxtor ESDI XT8760E that I purchased for $ 600 at an end-of-line sale around 10 to 15 years ago. As a result, one of the enhancements that I plan for RT-11 is to allow up to 65536 RT-11 partitions which will allow for hard disk drives up to 2 TeraBytes. Anyone interested? >>Hi All >> I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the >>rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they >>seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site >>that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. >>No >> >>mention of pdp anything. >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >First of all, please remember I am ONLY interested in RT-11. And while >I have had contact with and used a bit of RSX-11 and a very extensive >amount of RSTS/E, I was never responsible of a system which ran RSX-11 >or RSTS/E. Which is the primary reason that I never became proficient >enough to maintain either an RSX-11 or a RSTS/E system. On the other >hand, I may now know RT-11 as well as some of the top RT-11 developers >knew RT-11 during the 1980s. > >As for why Mentec no longer actively supports any of the PDP-11 >systems, I venture to guess that it is no longer profitable. > > > >>As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around >>how >>RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have >>not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they >>could help us poor pdp preservers. >> >> >> >Mentec has helped the poor PDP-11 preservers. Unfortunately, it is not >obvious since the help is more in not causing those poor PDP-11 >preservers any difficulties as opposed to being proactive by making the >operating systems generally available such as Borland products are at >present. Also an example is the VMS hobby program which Mentec does >not have. > >In addition, as others have mentioned in their replies, it seems very >doubtful that Mentec really did "totally own" the >PDP-11 operating systems. Unfortunately, it seems highly probable that >the terms of the agreement between Mentec and DEC required the parties >to maintain confidentiality since I can't see why those terms have >never been publicly disclosed - unless those terms were so detrimental >to the users that neither party wanted to admit the mistakes in the >lack of a >PDP-11 hobby program in the face of the VMS hobby license program. But >what did happen did, what did not happen did not - the stories and >interpretations that many of us make up about what happened are >probably 90% fiction and are no longer even important. > >BUT, Mentec did make older versions of the operating systems available >for legal non-commercial use under what was at the time a DEC owned >emulator. It certainly seemed questionable at the time and it may be >even more questionable at present, but Mentec has chosen to make no >challenge to the use of those older versions of the operating systems >under the current name of that DEC emulator which has evolved to become >SIMH. In addition, Mentec also seems to be ignoring the legal >requirement for a transfer of any operating system license to the new >owner of any old PDP-11 hardware so long as, at least as far I can >interpret, the new owner is non-commercial. Certainly there have been >numerous discussions on classiccmp (one is going on right now about a >single RL02 system) over PDP-11 use of the RT-11 operating system (i.e. >NOT under SIMH) and I can't remember any recent protests from Mentec in >this regard. > >Any finally, while the RSX-11 and RSTS/E operating systems are much >more tightly controlled and not very easily available, almost 10 years >ago, Megan Gentry, a former RT-11 developer, put a zip file of V05.03 >of >RT-11 up for general download with the explicit permission of the >individuals who had to provide that permission. V05.03 of RT-11 is the >last binary distribution allowed under the DEC emulator and by >inference under SIMH. There is also a CD version (an ISO file) which >contains as many as possible of the RT-11 binary versions as could >reasonably be found for all of V05.03 of RT-11 and prior. Any for >those individuals who are legally licensed to run the latest version of >RT-11, V05.07 released in October of 1998 or just under 9 years ago, >there is also a CD containing the rest of the RT-11 binary >distributions. The latter CD was requested by a university who was >legally licensed to use and already had a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 and >was legally entitled to a backup of all of the RT-11 binary distributions. > >So - I don't really think that there are any "poor pdp preservers" >as far as RT-11 is concerned. In point of fact, I have personally >found ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in the last 5 years in: >(a) Preserving RT-11, >(b) Fixing any bugs in RT-11 >(c) Making any enhancements in RT-11 >Of course, for individuals in the know, most of them already have >sufficiently preserved what they want of RT-11. On the other hand, >even though I have made a number of vital bug fixes to >RT-11 (for problems that crash RT-11) along with other minor problems >as well as some extensive enhancements, I have yet to find anyone who >is even interested in a Y3K for RT-11, let alone someone who would be >interested in participating. > >Of course, Y3K may already have been done, the enhancements that I have >already completed may have been duplicated along with many other >enhancements and the bugs fixed as well and distributed to the users of >RT-11. Perhaps I just don't know that it has all occurred without a >word of it reaching my eyes and ears. > >But, as a result, I have place (a), (b) and (c) into a lower priority >and focused on attempting something even less useful, i.e. confirming >the value of pi(10^18) using a sieve program running under RT-11 with a >view to attempting to determine pi(10^24). When I find that it will >take a million years to finish the calculations for pi(10^24) with >current computers, I may shift back to (a), (b) and (c) if I can't find >something even less useful than knowing the value for pi(10^24). > >On the other hand, if anyone is really interested, drop me a line. If >anyone really knows why Mentec does not have a hobby program for PDP-11 >operating systems, let us know. Just don't complain about RT-11 and >Mentec since nothing that Mentec seems to be doing at present >interferes with "poor pdp preservers" >as far as RT-11 is concerned. In 16 more years, which will be 25 years >after V05.07 of RT-11 was released, I very seriously doubt that Mentec >will care if every hobby user who wants a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 is >using it on real DEC hardware, let alone if there is a running emulator >on what goes for a PC in the year 2023 when I will be 84 years old if I >am still kicking. > >As for commercial sites still running RT-11, if they don't already have >the Y2K compliant V05.07 of RT-11, then I very much doubt that they >will require V05.07 in the year 2023. >And if those commercial sites are managing with the current bugs in >RT-11 9 years after V05.07 was released, well ... > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine >-- >If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has >been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the >semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four >characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > From cmcnabb at vt.edu Mon May 7 07:11:49 2007 From: cmcnabb at vt.edu (Christopher McNabb) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 08:11:49 -0400 Subject: Tons of DEC stuff available in Blacksburg Virginia Message-ID: We've just bought a house, so I will no longer have room for all my DEC Stuff. There is a PDP-11/83, a PDP-11/24, 2 RL02's, a 9 track tape drive, etc. If anyone wants it come and get it, otherwise it will have to be disposed of in early July -- Christopher L McNabb Tel: 540 231 7554 Senior Systems Engineer Email: cmcnabb at vt.edu Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.205622N 80.414595W ARS: N2UX Grid Square: EM97SD From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 7 09:13:44 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 11:13:44 -0300 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem References: Message-ID: <0b4d01c790b2$416a4350$f0fea8c0@alpha> > *never seen one in the wild before, or even on auction sites.....IIRC it > was > largely designed to be Apple ][ compatible..... And there are TWO brazilian clones: TK2000 and TK2000 II :o) You can take a look at them at my page ;o) From wayne.smith at charter.net Mon May 7 09:24:35 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 07:24:35 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? Message-ID: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne Smith [mailto:wayne.smith at charter.net] > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:00 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: Re: value of IBM 5110? > > > This system isn't in Europe, and as much as everyone would > like to believe that old iron should be virtually free, the > reality is that it isn't - at least not on this side of the > pond. The 5110 unit alone will sell for at least $500 if > posted on Ebay - some have gone for much more. If it is an > APL/BASIC unit - something that isn't apparent from the > listing - it will go for over $1000. Well, from the listing it probably is a BASIC only unit, but $600 is still a good price. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 7 09:24:58 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 07:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tons of DEC stuff available in Blacksburg Virginia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87623.34372.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Christopher McNabb wrote: > We've just bought a house, so I will no longer have > room for all my DEC > Stuff. There is a PDP-11/83, a PDP-11/24, 2 RL02's, > a 9 track tape drive, > etc. If anyone wants it come and get it, otherwise > it will have to be > disposed of in early July I would definitely be interested, provided nobody already pounced..., although it really is quite a hike. (I'm in Albany) I can probably get a friend to come along, and turn it into a road trip though. Should all fit into a minivan, right? Thanks! -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 7 09:26:04 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 07:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tons of DEC stuff available in Blacksburg Virginia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4862.27694.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Doh! Sorry, that was not meant to got to the list... -Ian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 09:32:25 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 15:32:25 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> References: <463F02D2.402@philpem.me.uk> <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <463F3879.5090302@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > The 85x docs talk about MFM data though, whereas I don't think that the > 80x docs do. I'm not sure if there's any good technical reason that the > 80x drives can't handle an MFM data stream, though. (I think there might > be some on-board "helper" circuitry for separating FM clock/data bits on > at least some of the 80x flavours - but I think this can be jumpered out > so that the controller does the stream encoding/decoding instead). IIRC, the SA800 provides: /RDDATA: Raw data from the head - one pulse if there's a flux transition /SEPDATA: Separated data - no clock pulses /SEPCLK: Separated clock - no data pulses So you'd just connect RD DATA up to the controller and let it do its own thing. If you have a weird drive that only has SEPDATA and SEPCLK, you AND them together to get the data and clock pulses together (they're active-low remember - 1&1=1, everything else=0). Then just feed the AND gate output into the RDDATA input on the controller. > Aren't hard-sectored 8" floppies available in more than just 32 > sectors/track flavours? Yes, that's why I said "for 32-sector discs". IIRC you can get 8, 16 and 32-sector discs. > It's no big deal if your circuitry is analysing > timing relationships to detect index pulse, but it obviously is if the > circuitry's relying on timing windows as the timing will be different > for a 32-sector disk versus one with n sectors... Yes, and the timing window is variable. Usually you'd have it set to 0.75Tindex (where Tindex = the time between two normal index pulses). I think I've posted the pseudocode before - but basically, the pulse detector looks for two index pulses that came less than Tthreshold after the previous pulse. Set the threshold to 0.75Tindex and you can detect the "half way" pulse, even if it's up to 0.25Tindex late, or if the next sector index pulse is up to 0.25Tindex early. This is one of those things that's easier to explain with a couple of pictures (or a whiteboard)... > (I've only got the SA400 manual here, but the index/sector detection > circuitry uses different timing depending on the media used - I presume > because 5.25" hard sectored media was also available with different > numbers of sectors per track) On the SA800 you can change a few jumpers (more specifically, you cut a track and bridge one of two others) to get 8, 16 or 32 sectors per track. The manual's on Bitsavers if you're interested... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon May 7 09:34:15 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:34:15 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> Allison wrote: > The answer is yes but the drives have to have the propper low level format. > That low level format cannot be done with a PC. It can be done on a Qbus > system with RQDX1/2 controller and XXDP. > This makes sense after looking at the DW.SYS from RT11. It shows 16 sectors per track which is consistent with RQDX1/2. I will have to study the driver some more. Source comments would be nice... > Other drives that have been used were > > RD31 == ST225 > RD32 == ST250 > How would these have been formatted since the RQDX1/2 doesn't know anything about RD31 or RD32? The Pro tech manual describes a formatting function that lets you lay down a low-level format for a given track. Could a drive be formatted in the field using the Pro or did the drive just come pre-formatted? -chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 7 09:34:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 07:34:46 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: >From: Jules Richardson > >Philip Pemberton wrote: >>Strange that the SA800 only provides an index pulse once per revolution - >>I guess it's intended for soft-sector discs. > >I believe that's right; the 801 is the hard-sectored version. Hi No, the difference between the 800 and 801's was the clock separator. It had nothing to do with hard sectored. As I stated before, there was a - option that told if there was an index/sector separator. In any case, this circuit can be bypassed to get the raw index signal. It would be best to bypass any sector/index separator and just use the raw signal. Reading and writing would be easier then. As for the location of the first sector, that could vary, even for hard sectored. Most often, each sector had a header with the sector number. It was quite common to interleave sectors to speed disk activity. In these cases, the order of the sectors need not follow any particular order from the index mark. To my knowledge, the Polymorphic, Heathkit H8/89 and the NorthStar were of this type. The index mark was only used during formatting and as a rotational indicator. This is not always true. My Nicolet splits the 32 hard sectors into two 16 sector marked chunks. Only the first of these two vertual sectors has any header and that is a track indicator value. The rest is just data. Dwight > >The 850 is a double-sided version of the 800, and the 851 is a double-sided >version of the 801. > >The 85x docs talk about MFM data though, whereas I don't think that the 80x >docs do. I'm not sure if there's any good technical reason that the 80x >drives can't handle an MFM data stream, though. (I think there might be >some on-board "helper" circuitry for separating FM clock/data bits on at >least some of the 80x flavours - but I think this can be jumpered out so >that the controller does the stream encoding/decoding instead). > > > Given that there's no >>indexing on the hub like there is on 3.5" drives, the SA800 would probably >>output one index pulse every time an index hole was detected - if you used >>soft-sector discs that would be one pulse per rev, or 32+1 pulses if you >>used 32-sector hard-sector discs. > >Aren't hard-sectored 8" floppies available in more than just 32 >sectors/track flavours? It's no big deal if your circuitry is analysing >timing relationships to detect index pulse, but it obviously is if the >circuitry's relying on timing windows as the timing will be different for a >32-sector disk versus one with n sectors... > >(I've only got the SA400 manual here, but the index/sector detection >circuitry uses different timing depending on the media used - I presume >because 5.25" hard sectored media was also available with different numbers >of sectors per track) I have 32 sectored 8 inch disk. This was the most common but I believe there was a 16 and a 10 sectored 8 inch as well. To my knowledge, the 5-1/4 only came in 10 sectored. This was used by Polymophic and NorthStar, as well as a few others. As for using a 800 or 801 as a MFM, one could do it but the filters where real close to the required frequency edge on the read. There was a - option for this as well. If one can find the documents, there was several capacitors and resistors that one could modify to get the desire frequency responce. I made this modification my self for a friend back in the 80's but that is all I remember. Dwight > >cheers > >Jules > >-- >"What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self >destruct in seven days." > > - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07 From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 09:53:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 07:53:28 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <463F02D2.402@philpem.me.uk>, <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <463EDAF8.5848.2C0B7CD2@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 6:29, Jules Richardson wrote: > Aren't hard-sectored 8" floppies available in more than just 32 sectors/track > flavours? It's no big deal if your circuitry is analysing timing relationships > to detect index pulse, but it obviously is if the circuitry's relying on > timing windows as the timing will be different for a 32-sector disk versus one > with n sectors... Yes, 8" disks also appear in 8 and 16 sector versions, although the 8- sector ones are fairly uncommon. Many 8" drives that can take HS media do so through a jumper settings on the drive board. I've pushed MFM data through an SA-800 with no problems. I don't keep the 800's around, however, as they're only single-sided and don't seek very fast. ----------------- About putting multiple drives on a single connector--some older drives have removable pullups (usually 150 ohms); later ones have lower-value builtin pullups. In any case, I'd limit the number of drives on a single connector to 4. Two connectors driven by nice beefy 50 ma OC drivers would make most people pretty happy, I'd think. Cheers, Chuck From fernande at internet1.net Mon May 7 10:05:14 2007 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 11:05:14 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463F402A.1000907@internet1.net> > Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple > system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most > capability, but the II is more significant. It depends... if you want to use/play with the computer keep a //e, but if it'll me more of a personal pride in the rarity of ones collection that rarely gets turned on, keep a straight II (no suffix). The II, and the II+ are certainly more rare and I would think bring higher dollars on Ebay, therefore enabling you to channel your good fortune into something more inline with your interests..... if your not into rarity. Me? I have a //e setup similar to what I used in school "back in the day" :-) It is setup, and once in a while I'll play a game of Moon Patrol, or simply watch it boot, or make it count to 1 million, and just enjoy the green glow form it's monochromatic monitor :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, MI From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 7 10:20:47 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 10:20:47 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <51ea77730705070820q6ad3ada2nc3f74c0714f5027@mail.gmail.com> On 5/7/07, Wayne Smith wrote: > > Well, from the listing it probably is a BASIC only unit, but $600 is > still a good price. > I'm making deals with him now on it. I want to check it out and see if the floppy drives can read. Anyone have any idea how to "IPL" it or do a read off the disks? -j From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 7 11:03:58 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 09:03:58 -0700 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: At 12:07 PM +0100 5/7/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? You can still buy licenses, and yes, I do know someone to talk to about it. Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec. > 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? I'm honestly not sure who might still be making hardware at this point, although I don't think Mentec is any more. > 3. Why have Mentec removed all mention of PDP-11 products from >their web sites. You'd have to ask them about that one. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 7 11:20:20 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 09:20:20 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? Message-ID: <463F51C4.4030601@bitsavers.org> > Anyone have any idea how to "IPL" it > or do a read off the disks? imagedisk should be able to read them, if you have an 8" drive. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 7 11:19:54 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 17:19:54 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463F51AA.3010606@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/05/2007 15:34, dwight elvey wrote: > I have 32 sectored 8 inch disk. This was the most common but I believe > there was a 16 and a 10 sectored 8 inch as well. > To my knowledge, the 5-1/4 only came in 10 sectored. I've seen 16-sectored 5-1/4" but I believe they were quite rare. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 7 11:43:49 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 11:43:49 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <463F51C4.4030601@bitsavers.org> References: <463F51C4.4030601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730705070943jd68748eu829376f5af4ba2ab@mail.gmail.com> On 5/7/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > Anyone have any idea how to "IPL" it > > or do a read off the disks? > > imagedisk should be able to read them, if you have an 8" > drive. The machine has the drives, I just want to know how to make it read its disks, in order to test the drives. I'm at work now but I'll check bitsavers and google around for some docs. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 7 11:47:02 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 11:47:02 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705070947t34a08abdo1d81722599644373@mail.gmail.com> On 5/6/07, Christian Corti wrote: > Is that a model 1 (with built in tape drive) or a model 2 (without tape > drive)? Just got a reply from the seller, looks like it has no tape drive :( From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 7 11:44:51 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 11:44:51 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F51AA.3010606@dunnington.plus.com> References: <463F51AA.3010606@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <463F5783.4010601@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/05/2007 15:34, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I have 32 sectored 8 inch disk. This was the most common but I believe >> there was a 16 and a 10 sectored 8 inch as well. >> To my knowledge, the 5-1/4 only came in 10 sectored. > > I've seen 16-sectored 5-1/4" but I believe they were quite rare. The SA400 manual lists SA105 and SA107 media as being hard-sectored and compatible with the drive. It takes some digging through the manual to find any more info, but piecing together clues it would seem that SA105 is 16 sectors/track and SA107 is 10. SA104 was the soft-sectored flavour. cheers Jules -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From cc at corti-net.de Mon May 7 12:18:39 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 19:18:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705070820q6ad3ada2nc3f74c0714f5027@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <51ea77730705070820q6ad3ada2nc3f74c0714f5027@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2007, Jason T wrote: > I'm making deals with him now on it. I want to check it out and see > if the floppy drives can read. Anyone have any idea how to "IPL" it > or do a read off the disks? IPL is easy: turn the machine on. To get a directory listing of a diskette, do the following: BASIC ----- UTIL DIR,D80 (first drive) UTIL DIR,D40 (second drive) APL --- )LIB 11001 (first drive) )LIB 12001 (second drive) Christian From cc at corti-net.de Mon May 7 12:30:29 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 19:30:29 +0200 (CEST) Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2007, Wayne Smith wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Wayne Smith [mailto:wayne.smith at charter.net] >> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:00 PM >> To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' >> Subject: Re: value of IBM 5110? [did never appear on classiccmp] >> This system isn't in Europe, and as much as everyone would >> like to believe that old iron should be virtually free, the >> reality is that it isn't - at least not on this side of the >> pond. And on this side of the pond, you wouldn't find anyone paying this much for this machine. Maybe we are just too realistic in Europe... >> The 5110 unit alone will sell for at least $500 if >> posted on Ebay - some have gone for much more. If it is an Or $10 on a flea market... >> APL/BASIC unit - something that isn't apparent from the >> listing - it will go for over $1000. Taiwan dollars? ;-) To bring it to an end, it appears that the market for those machines is much bigger in the US than in Europe, hence the price differences. Christian From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 7 12:48:20 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:48:20 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <51ea77730705070820q6ad3ada2nc3f74c0714f5027@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <463F6664.3000904@pacbell.net> Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2007, Jason T wrote: >> I'm making deals with him now on it. I want to check it out and see >> if the floppy drives can read. Anyone have any idea how to "IPL" it >> or do a read off the disks? > > IPL is easy: turn the machine on. > To get a directory listing of a diskette, do the following: > BASIC > ----- > UTIL DIR,D80 (first drive) > UTIL DIR,D40 (second drive) > > APL > --- > )LIB 11001 (first drive) > )LIB 12001 (second drive) > > Christian > You should also be sure it is cabled up properly. The disk drives won't work unless the I/O bus is terminated. The printer has the terminator built in, so you should wire them up as CPU->drives->printer. Or you might have on hand a standalone terminator block, in which case you can just have CPU->drives->terminator. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon May 7 13:00:26 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 11:00:26 -0700 Subject: SC/MP LCDS Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> river wrote: I don't know if you saw the SC/MP LCDS (Low Cost Development System) for sale on eBay (Australia) last week, but I bought it. I've been looking for one of these babies for a long time, and to find one for sale near where I live was too good to be true. [snip] I'll let you know how I go. River ----------- Billy: Wish I had known you were looking for this. I tried to find someone interested in the SC/MP a couple of times. Not even a nibble so I put them on the bottom of the boxes of stuff to sell. I've a couple of the small development systems and the thick binder with all the technical stuff. Plus some loose SC/MP boards and documentation. I indexed it about 2 months ago then packed it up for the selling spree I going to start when I retire (later this year). I've learned that most of what I have to sell is common junk with little value and the occasional rarity. I put the SC/MP development systems in the junk category since there was no interest. The hard to find items are going to be easy to move. The rest are going to be a real pain. I've already been giving some of them away or even tossing. Billy From hamren at sdu.se Mon May 7 14:06:00 2007 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 21:06:00 +0200 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705071701.l47H197O000171@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705071701.l47H197O000171@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17983.30872.348565.391591@localhost.localdomain> > From: "dwight elvey" > No, the difference between the 800 and 801's was the clock > separator. It had nothing to do with hard sectored. On page 6 the "SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive // OEM Manual", dated May 1980, states the following differences between the different models: 800-1 Soft Sectored with an FM (single density) data separator. 800-2 Soft Sectored without data separator. 800-4 Mechanics only (No PCB). 801 Hard-sectored with an FM (single density) data separator and sector separator. NOTE To convert a 801 to a 800 move the shorting plug from the 801 position to the 800 position. A 800 cannot be converted to a 801. /Lars Hamr?n From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon May 7 14:26:32 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 12:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2007, C H Dickman wrote: >> Other drives that have been used were >> >> RD31 == ST225 >> RD32 == ST250 >> > How would these have been formatted since the RQDX1/2 doesn't know anything > about RD31 or RD32? The Pro tech manual describes a formatting function that > lets you lay down a low-level format for a given track. Could a drive be > formatted in the field using the Pro or did the drive just come > pre-formatted? Well, when I fiddled with an ST-251 in my Pro350, I wrote my own formatter. The register layout is close enough to the traditional IBM/PC AT type controller that it wasn't particularly hard. I've lost the code, though, so I can't really offer anything beyond moral support. I do, however, have the original PC formatter code that I started from (in TURBO Pascal 3.01), if that's helpful (I would suspect not). -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 14:41:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:41:39 -0700 Subject: SC/MP LCDS In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <463F1E83.3920.2D13591F@cclist.sydex.com> river wrote: > > I don't know if you saw the SC/MP LCDS (Low Cost Development System) for > sale on eBay (Australia) last week, but I bought it. I've been looking for > one of these babies for a long time, and to find one for sale near where I > live was too good to be true. Was anything like this ever produced for the PACE? It might be fun to fool with one again. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon May 7 15:01:41 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 13:01:41 -0700 Subject: Old Subject, Another Twist Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B4@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> For those who remain unconvinced about the importance of ESD: http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199203948 Disk drive heads and media are manufactured using Semiconductor lines, so they have the same problems. Disk drives are worse in fact, since the heads and media are exposed to air during manufacturing. I just saw a study that found head failure to be the number one long term failure. The wear study expected to find bad motor bearings or gasket break down. Instead, MR heads are usually the first item to wear out by a big margin. The study separated crashes from head degradation, so it truly is head wear out. Electronics (PCB related) failures were under .5% of the total. Billy From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 15:30:54 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 21:30:54 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> It's done. $DEITY-knows-how-many hours of effort, and it's *finally* done. Of course, I'm referring to the CPLD that drives the disc reader. All the logic has been bolted together, compiled, synthesized and fitted into a Xilinx XC95288XL-10 CPLD. I haven't run the test suite on it yet, but it passed the timing analysis with a theoretical (emphasis on THEORETICAL) maximum clock rate of 71.429MHz. Meaning it's sure as heck going to run fine at the 32MHz I wanted to run it at, with a >2x safety margin. Which is quite nice, actually. I still need to fiddle with the pinout and lay out the PCB, but once that's done I can try and build up a prototype and have a play with it. At some point I'll need to order a couple of XC95288XL chips from Digikey, the shipping charges from which are going to utterly obliterate my 'buy a new lens for the 400D' budget... Here's the stats, for anyone that actually cares: ----- cpldfit: version J.33 Xilinx Inc. Fitter Report Design Name: floppyrw Date: 5- 7-2007, 9:11PM Device Used: XC95288XL-10-TQ144 Fitting Status: Successful ************************* Mapped Resource Summary ************************** Macrocells Product Terms Function Block Registers Pins Used/Tot Used/Tot Inps Used/Tot Used/Tot Used/Tot 223/288 ( 77%) 1243/1440 ( 86%) 615/864 ( 71%) 146/288 ( 51%) 50 /117 ( 43%) ----- The CPLD code is zipped up at for anyone that wants to take a peek. It's nothing really special, and floppyrw.v is a huge mess, but it should give you some idea how it all works. I've tested everything except the top-level module. You'll need some version of Xilinx ISE (I used WebPack 9.1i) to compile it, and some knowledge of Verilog HDL to modify it. Have fun, -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 16:11:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 22:11:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463EDAF8.5848.2C0B7CD2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 7, 7 07:53:28 am Message-ID: > About putting multiple drives on a single connector--some older > drives have removable pullups (usually 150 ohms); later ones have > lower-value builtin pullups. In any case, I'd limit the number of Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up resistors. -tony From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon May 7 16:33:56 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:33:56 +0100 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463F9B44.6090602@gifford.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > On inspecting the MPF-II's box, I'm guessing it's been sat in a cupboard > since 1985 as a lot of the internal walls have reacted badly with the PVC > cables, some of them have been eaten through. What plastic can I wrap the > cables in to avoid any more damage? Polythene wrap? I received a BBC Micro Teletext Adaptor from a friend, and she'd wrapped the mains lead in a small plastic bag. It was the "crinkly" type of plastic, not polythene, as used for the very small type of bag for shopping (about A5 size). This bag had prevented the cable from sticking to the polystyrene. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 17:16:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 15:16:22 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <463EDAF8.5848.2C0B7CD2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 7, 7 07:53:28 am, Message-ID: <463F42C6.10548.2DA0FCC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 22:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > About putting multiple drives on a single connector--some older > > drives have removable pullups (usually 150 ohms); later ones have > > lower-value builtin pullups. In any case, I'd limit the number of > > Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up > resistors. Inverse thinking again! Yup, about 1-2K typically. Cheers, Chuck "Down is Up" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 7 09:49:46 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:49:46 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives Message-ID: <0JHO0001VEFZJ6MB@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Pro380 disk drives > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:37:58 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >On 07/05/2007 03:06, Charles H. Dickman wrote: >> Can the Pro380 be used with RX33 drives in place of the RX50? The Pro >> technical manual doesn't say anything about the RX33. It also doesn't >> say that there is a way to change the floppy data rate, so I am guessing >> it does not support them. > >I don't think so, but others may know more. RX33 can be used in a pro380, however it's used as a RX50 with same data rate and single sided. The upside is a pair of RX33s will fit and are far more reliable and quieter. >> Can the Pro380 be used with any ST506/ST412 type hard disks or just >> RD50, RD51, and RD52? I have a couple RD32 and some non-DEC drives and >> am curious if any of the could be used with it. How do you format a >> drive for a Pro? I never noticed any support for Professionals in XXDP? >> Was there a utility in P/OS for that purpose? > >I guess you need to format it the way you would for an RQDX1, with XXDP. > I do know that it shares some low-level code with the early RQDXs, and >uses similar sniffers to determine the drive type, so you can't just use >any drive -- it has to look like one of the ones a Pro supports. Other drives work once formatted. Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Mon May 7 10:53:01 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 16:53:01 +0100 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1178553181.14931.10.camel@elric> On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 12:44 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > C > cables, some of them have been eaten through. What plastic can I wrap the > cables in to avoid any more damage? Polythene wrap? New kit seems to have just ordinary polythene bags around the cables. Maybe something like freezer bags would work? Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon May 7 13:08:45 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 19:08:45 +0100 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDE@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well that seems a lot closer to the truth. Please explain < Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec.> Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 07 May 2007 17:04 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: RE: Mentec At 12:07 PM +0100 5/7/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? You can still buy licenses, and yes, I do know someone to talk to about it. Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec. > 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? I'm honestly not sure who might still be making hardware at this point, although I don't think Mentec is any more. > 3. Why have Mentec removed all mention of PDP-11 products from their >web sites. You'd have to ask them about that one. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 7 16:34:36 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 17:34:36 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report Message-ID: <0JHO00JO8X6LTXI5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Floppy disc reader/writer status report > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:11:21 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> About putting multiple drives on a single connector--some older >> drives have removable pullups (usually 150 ohms); later ones have >> lower-value builtin pullups. In any case, I'd limit the number of > >Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up >resistors. > >-tony NO Lower. Some came with 130ohm and a few with 220/330 (130ohm) terminations. Allison From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 7 17:31:22 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 00:31:22 +0200 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> Hi, Rod. Jerome makes some interesting, if strange and faulty assumptions. Such as assuming that since Mentec hasn't complained although people "appear" to have been using and posting about RT-11 on classiccmp list for a long time. First of all, we don't even know if Mentec knows about the classiccmp list, neither if they scan it (which perhaps some people should be happy about). Second, I can't remember that many people actually coming out saying that they are using RT-11 without a license. So I would somewhat ignore Jeromes view on the legality of things. That said, I'll answer some of your questions. "Rod Smallwood" skrev: > > Hi Jerome > > We seem to be converging on our views. The simulator is a simple > issue. I want to see the old systems run and live again. If I had spent > years restoring an old aircraft to flying condition I would not park it > and use MS flight simulator instead! I agree with you. It's fun to actually run the real hardware, and not just play with a simulator. Not the same feel of satisfaction. I still play with an 11/70 here, even though we also have E11. > RT-11, RSX-11M & RSX11-D, and RSTS were all current when I joined DEC in > 1975. The hardware to support them (Mentec excepted) has not been made > for at least ten years. The answer may lie a little deeper. I think what > may lie at the back of it is if they provide it they may be liable for > any damage it does. Licenses do not change laws and the law of the land > will always take precedence. It might be a risk based decision. That is probably one part of it. Another part is that they have paying customers (still) and probably don't think it's a good idea to start giving it all away for free, which means they need to draw up some sort of license that will limit things in a useful way. Doing that costs money, and they probably can't see any profit from it. So why spend that money? > However I'd still like to know what are the answers to the fundimental questions: > > 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? Yes. As someone who have customers who still buy from Mentec I can definitely confirm that they were still selling ten months ago. Can't see a reason why they should have stopped since then. This is RSX and layered products, by the way. > 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? No. I think they stopped manufacturing "real" PDP-11 hardware, and are now pushing for emulators. However, that is a grey zone. We haven't had a real "true" PDP-11 CPU since the 11/20. All the rest are microcoded. Microcode is also software. :-) > 3. Why have Mentec removed all mention of PDP-11 products from > their web sites. That is a really good question, and one which I don't have an answer to. But I'd like to know if someone else have. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 7 17:30:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 17:30:34 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > It's done. > > $DEITY-knows-how-many hours of effort, and it's *finally* done. Heh. Congrats :-) What OS are you going to end up driving this from? (It is on a PCI card isn't it, rather than a USB interface?) Regarding earlier question about bringing some address lines out to the I/O connector... the logical choices I suppose are a 40 pin header or a 50 pin header. 40 doesn't seem like enough though assuming you keep odd pins as ground still; it's only another 3 pins, and won't you need one of those for the write precomp line for 8" drives? 50 would give you an extra 8 pins to play with[1] though. If one of those is reserved for a write precomp line, that still leaves seven unused. Say reserve four for addressing, and the other three for the uses which we haven't thought of yet? ;-) [1] Assuming the ability to have two drives on the same cable as per the PC standard... if you don't do that I suppose it frees up a couple of pins of the 'standard' connector. From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 7 17:35:37 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 00:35:37 +0200 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705071703.l47H1q7u000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705071703.l47H1q7u000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <463FA9B9.9060206@softjar.se> "Zane H. Healy" skrev: > At 12:07 PM +0100 5/7/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? > > You can still buy licenses, and yes, I do know someone to talk to about it. > > Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec. True, and sad. >> 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? > > I'm honestly not sure who might still be making hardware at this > point, although I don't think Mentec is any more. Quickware and Strobe? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 17:48:03 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:48:03 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463FACA3.9000200@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up > resistors. Most of the 3.5" drives I've used don't have any PURs at all. /INDEX (for example) usually sits at 0V until you add a pull-up, then you start to see it toggling. Maybe I've just got a box of rather odd drives... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 7 18:17:55 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 00:17:55 +0100 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem In-Reply-To: <1178553181.14931.10.camel@elric> Message-ID: On 7/5/07 16:53, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 12:44 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: >> C >> cables, some of them have been eaten through. What plastic can I wrap the >> cables in to avoid any more damage? Polythene wrap? > > New kit seems to have just ordinary polythene bags around the cables. > > Maybe something like freezer bags would work? Aah, or small food bags perhaps.....I've got loads of those! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 7 18:42:40 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 16:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <463FA9B9.9060206@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at May 08, 2007 12:35:37 AM Message-ID: <200705072342.l47Nge3W010152@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I'm honestly not sure who might still be making hardware at this > > point, although I don't think Mentec is any more. > > Quickware and Strobe? > > Johnny For Quickware I have no idea, I had to even look Quickware up, as I was drawing a blank till I googled it and read QED. :^) They do still have a very limited webpage with contact information. As for Strobe, they are still around as far as I know. Hmmm, this brings up an interesting question, does anyone have any data on the Quickware QED995 board? I'd like to add some information, or at least a link to the FPGA section of my DEC Emulation site. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 18:43:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 16:43:09 -0700 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem In-Reply-To: <1178553181.14931.10.camel@elric> References: , <1178553181.14931.10.camel@elric> Message-ID: <463F571D.23553.2DF06F75@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 16:53, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 12:44 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > > C > > cables, some of them have been eaten through. What plastic can I wrap the > > cables in to avoid any more damage? Polythene wrap? > > New kit seems to have just ordinary polythene bags around the cables. > > Maybe something like freezer bags would work? For lengths "out in the open", how about the spiral (I think they're HDPE) cable protectors? They're used a lot in automotive applications. For parts of cables going through bulkheads, where space is tight, there is heat-shrink wrap tape that might do the job. I've also seen cable protectors that have a "zipper" edge lengthwise, so they can be slipped over a cable and then closed over it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 18:58:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 16:58:20 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463FACA3.9000200@philpem.me.uk> References: , <463FACA3.9000200@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463F5AAC.20029.2DFE56E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 23:48, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up > > resistors. > > Most of the 3.5" drives I've used don't have any PURs at all. /INDEX (for > example) usually sits at 0V until you add a pull-up, then you start to see it > toggling. Yes, but Index is an output, meaning the host has the pullup. Have a gander at one of the input lines, like WGATE. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 19:41:45 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 01:41:45 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > What OS are you going to end up driving this from? I dunno. If I have a lapse in sanity I'll write it in Java (which means it'll run veeery slooowly on just about anything), otherwise I'll use it as an excuse to learn wxWidgets (which means it'll run on Windows, Linux, OS X and BSD, which covers about 95% of the market). In any case, I want it to run on Linux as a bare minimum. > (It is on a PCI card > isn't it, rather than a USB interface?) PCI?! PCI?! Why the hell would I do something as monumentally STUPID as that? After all, the PCI-SIG's licence fees are 'just a bit' steep IMO :) My plan is to do a USB version that's small enough to shove into a laptop bag with a wall-wart and a 3.5" drive so that you can handle the "Joe Bloggs has the discs, will let someone image them, but won't let the Royal Mail handle them" type situations quite easily, while also being able to hook up adapter cables to use other drive types (e.g. 8"). ST-506 is coming in Version 2 :) > Regarding earlier question about bringing some address lines out to the > I/O connector... the logical choices I suppose are a 40 pin header or a > 50 pin header. Maybe. IDC headers are pretty cheap. I don't have many in stock ATM though - just a couple of 34-way box headers and a few PC floppy cables. > 40 doesn't seem like enough though assuming you keep odd pins as ground > still; it's only another 3 pins, and won't you need one of those for the > write precomp line for 8" drives? Argh, I'm going to have to read through those Shugart manuals again! Speaking of precompensation, does anyone know anything about the innards of the 'write precompensation' (early/late/normal) stuff that's generally a part of most modern floppy controllers? I'm curious to find out what that actually does, and if I need to do it on my controller. > 50 would give you an extra 8 pins to play with[1] though. If one of > those is reserved for a write precomp line, that still leaves seven > unused. Say reserve four for addressing, and the other three for the > uses which we haven't thought of yet? ;-) You're after sixteen addressable drives then. Ooookay... The plan is to have all four on the I/O (has anyone trademarked the name 'DriveBus'?) connector, then wire just the first two to the PC-FDD connector. If you want to use a single drive, wire it up with a PC cable, then set the software to 'single or double drive mode with PC selects'. Other modes might include '8/16 drives with decoder' or '4 drives with one-hot/one-cold selection'. > [1] Assuming the ability to have two drives on the same cable as per the > PC standard... if you don't do that I suppose it frees up a couple of > pins of the 'standard' connector. I'm keeping that in. I want to be able to hook up a 5.25" FDD and a 3.5" FDD at the same time. Remember - I'm building this thing as a combination analyser/imager (hence the name - Data Analysis and Recovery Toolkit) with the primary goal being to be able to image 'odd' floppy formats that a PC controller just can't touch. There are a few other things I'd like it to be able to do: - Can copy the BBC Elite floppy, copy protection and all (I know someone in Stockport that has a BBC B and a copy of Elite - cloning his master disc before his eyes without removing the protection would be fantastically cool, if only to see the grin on his face) - Can copy Amiga 'Rob Northen Copylock' protected discs, and read out the disc serial number (this protection has been 'uncopiable without a Trace duplicator' for far too long) - Full decode support for Commodore GCR, Apple GCR, PC MFM, PC FM, and whatever other formats I can get hold of formatting specs for. If/when I release the hardware (I might do a small production run if anyone's interested), I might do a "send me a disc and I'll add image and/or decode support" type service. Could be fun. I've got a couple of exams to study for this week, but I've got from Friday night onwards to play with expensive CAD software, corrosive chemicals, hot soldering irons and homebrew hardware. Yay me :) FWIW, by "decode support", I mean "take the raw bitstream and turn it into bytes, then decode those into sectors". I'm not doing filesystem decoding, that can wait until later. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From john at kourafas.com Mon May 7 20:02:40 2007 From: john at kourafas.com (John Kourafas) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 21:02:40 -0400 Subject: Western Digital MFM Controller(s) on AT systems. References: Message-ID: <005f01c7910c$93f46150$cbc8a8c0@jkccng41> I have a WD1006-WAH & WD1003V-MM2 mfm hard drive controllers. I have the WD Products text file from their old BBS (Feb 1989), my question is about the "high speed AT systems" which WD says is 10 to 16Mhz, does this actually mean these cards will not run in higher speed ISA systems like a 386 25mhz? PRODUCTS FOR AT SYSTEMS HARD DISK CONTROLLERS FOR MFM HARD DISK DRIVES - NO FLOPPY SUPPORT WD1006-WAH , feature F001R - Hard disk controller card with an ST506/ST412 interface. It supports 2 MFM drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, 1:1 interleave. HARD DISK CONTROLLERS FOR MFM HARD DISK DRIVES AND FLOPPY DISK DRIVES WD1003V-MM2, feature F300R - Hard disk controller card with an ST506/ST412 interface. It supports a maximum of 2 MFM drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders at 2:1 interleave, and 2 floppy disk drives (5-1/4" 360K, 1.2Mb; 3-1/2" 720K, 1.44Mb). The "V" boards can run in high speed AT systems, (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). All I have for pre 16Mhz is an 80186 8 Mhz but it doesn't have ISA slots, some odd-ball convergent technologies bus, I tried these cards in a 486 DX2 80 so that is why I'm asking about the high speed AT systems. -John From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon May 7 20:33:38 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 21:33:38 -0400 Subject: Identify a Zener diode for a Morrow s-100 mother board Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070507211856.02b7ea40@mail.degnanco.net> I am looking to replace a blown Zener diode for a Morrow s-100 mother board called Wuderbuss with Noise Guard 1977 G. Morrow Thinker Toys. Any known schematics? Here is the problem: http://vintagecomputer.net/Morrow/wuderbuss_mb_s-100.jpg ...note the blown Zener Diode at the top of the picture. I am unsure of the cause. Thanks. Bill From rcini at optonline.net Mon May 7 21:26:55 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:26:55 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed Message-ID: All: I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like drinking from a fire hose and I can?t remember it all), basically he is looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that the ?instructions? that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit instructions (or multiples thereof), so he?s looking for someone with that kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I?m not knowledgeable about any of the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that?s a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. If anyone?s willing to have a conversation with this person, please contact me off list and I?ll pass on his contact information. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 21:48:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 19:48:46 -0700 Subject: Western Digital MFM Controller(s) on AT systems. In-Reply-To: <005f01c7910c$93f46150$cbc8a8c0@jkccng41> References: , <005f01c7910c$93f46150$cbc8a8c0@jkccng41> Message-ID: <463F829E.7547.2E9A5CC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 21:02, John Kourafas wrote: > I have a WD1006-WAH & WD1003V-MM2 mfm hard drive controllers. I have the > WD Products text file from their old BBS (Feb 1989), my question is about > the "high speed AT systems" which WD says is 10 to 16Mhz, does this actually > mean these cards will not run in higher speed ISA systems like a 386 25mhz? I believe they're talking about *bus* speeds. In any case, I've used the 1006WAH and 1006SR2 sucessfully on a 100Mhz 486 DX4 system. Aside from a few oddball "times things in a CPU loop" cards, most ISA cards should work in modern (e.g. PIII, P4 CPU) systems. ISA bus timings haven't changed drastically from the old PC-AT days. Heck, I've even found PII ISA buses that are *slower* than the original PC- AT Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 7 22:01:26 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:01:26 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463FE806.3000400@gmail.com> Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island > who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a > commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like > drinking from a fire hose and I can?t remember it all), basically he is > looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that > the ?instructions? that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit > instructions (or multiples thereof), so he?s looking for someone with that > kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I > think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I?m not knowledgeable about any of > the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that?s > a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. > > If anyone?s willing to have a conversation with this person, please > contact me off list and I?ll pass on his contact information. I think the Doctor's best bet might be to get someone to write a direct process emulator on newer hardware. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 7 22:07:06 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 20:07:06 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <17983.30872.348565.391591@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: >From: Lars Hamren > > > > From: "dwight elvey" > > No, the difference between the 800 and 801's was the clock > > separator. It had nothing to do with hard sectored. > >On page 6 the "SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive // OEM Manual", dated >May 1980, states the following differences between the different >models: > > 800-1 Soft Sectored with an FM (single density) data separator. > 800-2 Soft Sectored without data separator. > 800-4 Mechanics only (No PCB). > 801 Hard-sectored with an FM (single density) data separator and > sector separator. > > NOTE > To convert a 801 to a 800 move the shorting plug from the 801 > position to the 800 position. A 800 cannot be converted to a 801. > >/Lars Hamr?n Hi I stand corrected. The 801's had both data and sector separators. I was only from memory. Thanks Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From spc at conman.org Mon May 7 22:13:36 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 23:13:36 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini once stated: > All: > > I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island > who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a > commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like > drinking from a fire hose and I can't remember it all), basically he is > looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that > the "instructions" that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit > instructions (or multiples thereof), so he's looking for someone with that > kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I > think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I'm not knowledgeable about any of > the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that's > a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. > > If anyone's willing to have a conversation with this person, please > contact me off list and I'll pass on his contact information. What an odd request. I would think that you could emulate such a device on just about any CPU and his best bet would be to find anyone that can code assembly (or that can write an emulator for his six-bit CPU). I don't see how a six-bit hardware architecture (if such a beast actually exists) will have a one-to-one mapping to a six-bit biological architecture. Heck, I would expect an 8-bit CPU to be decent for this, as that gives you two additional bits for debugging or tracking of some kind. Heck, it sounds kind of fun (assembly experience: 6809, 8088, some 80386, 68000, MIPS, some VAX, can recognize 8080, Z80 and 6502). -spc (Even wrote my own Forth-like langauge ... ) From ragooman at comcast.net Mon May 7 22:19:16 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:19:16 -0400 Subject: [midatlanticretro] WTD: Morrow Wunderbuss Thinker Toys Motherboard Schematic/docs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070507195454.029d67c8@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070507195454.029d67c8@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <463FEC34.50902@comcast.net> I almost posted a lengthly explanation on the march group list before I noticed you posted the pic on cctech. The power supply in that circuit is a -12V not +12V. The voltage regulator part # on there is a 7912 which outputs -12V. The part that is blown on there is an electrolytic cap, not a zener (note the + sign on each end of the cap). Both of those parts below the 7912 are the same type of part. Caps always dry up and blowout--they don't last forever. That's why it's good to have a Variac when powering equipment that hasn't been on for a long time--a homemade current limiter helps too if no variac is available. But I'm not sure of the value, it can't be very high in value, possibly only 3.3uf or 4.7uf considering the size, this isn't very critical , so long as you keep it in the ballpark. The caps for the 7805 regulator on there beside it are only 2.7uf. I would suggest changing both of them, for sanity's sake--they both might be damaged. The other important issue is to check the traces for damages when you remove the bad parts. They could have burned through creating an open circuit. So you'll have to splice the traces back together if this is the case. Some skinny telephone copper wire always does the trick. And last but not least, is the 7912 voltage regulator. You should check the -12V power before you plug in any cards. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] B. Degnan wrote: > > Herb/Anyone else.. > > I have a 1977 Morrow Wunderbuss "Thinker Toys" S-100 Motherboard with a > blown Zener diode near a 12+V position at the back of the board. Anyone > have a schematic? I checked Herb Johnson's site, there is nothing for > this > board listed. I would like to determine the exact type of diode so I can > replace it. > > What would cause a Zener diode to pop? > > Thanks. > Bill > > _ > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 7 22:23:31 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:23:31 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> References: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <463FED33.9090904@gmail.com> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini once stated: >> All: >> >> I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island >> who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a >> commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like >> drinking from a fire hose and I can't remember it all), basically he is >> looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that >> the "instructions" that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit >> instructions (or multiples thereof), so he's looking for someone with that >> kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I >> think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I'm not knowledgeable about any of >> the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that's >> a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. >> >> If anyone's willing to have a conversation with this person, please >> contact me off list and I'll pass on his contact information. > > What an odd request. I would think that you could emulate such a device > on just about any CPU and his best bet would be to find anyone that can code > assembly (or that can write an emulator for his six-bit CPU). Indeed, I'd be willing to write such an emulator. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 22:45:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 20:45:43 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk>, <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 1:41, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > What OS are you going to end up driving this from? > > I dunno. If I have a lapse in sanity I'll write it in Java (which means it'll > run veeery slooowly on just about anything), otherwise I'll use it as an > excuse to learn wxWidgets (which means it'll run on Windows, Linux, OS X and > BSD, which covers about 95% of the market). > > In any case, I want it to run on Linux as a bare minimum. > > > (It is on a PCI card > > isn't it, rather than a USB interface?) > > PCI?! PCI?! Why the hell would I do something as monumentally STUPID as that? > After all, the PCI-SIG's licence fees are 'just a bit' steep IMO :) > > My plan is to do a USB version that's small enough to shove into a laptop bag > with a wall-wart and a 3.5" drive so that you can handle the "Joe Bloggs has > the discs, will let someone image them, but won't let the Royal Mail handle > them" type situations quite easily, while also being able to hook up adapter > cables to use other drive types (e.g. 8"). ST-506 is coming in Version 2 :) > > > Regarding earlier question about bringing some address lines out to the > > I/O connector... the logical choices I suppose are a 40 pin header or a > > 50 pin header. > > Maybe. IDC headers are pretty cheap. I don't have many in stock ATM though - > just a couple of 34-way box headers and a few PC floppy cables. > > > 40 doesn't seem like enough though assuming you keep odd pins as ground > > still; it's only another 3 pins, and won't you need one of those for the > > write precomp line for 8" drives? I don't think there's anything that can't be handled with a DC-37 connector--and that's with 4 drive selects. You don't need the separated data from 8" drives, so let's look at what signals you do need: DS0 DS1 DS2 DS3 MOTOR ON or HEAD LOAD* SIDE SELECT INDEX TRACK 0 STEP DIRECTION READ DATA (RAW) WRITE DATA WRITE GATE WRITE PROTECTED SECTOR (if you want to use the 8" signal) TG43 *Saying that both HDLD and MTRON are the same signal simplifies accommodating 8" drives and doesn't hurt a thing. 16 signal lines + return = 32 pins. Some NEC 3.5" floppies have some very strange "extra" signals, but they're the only ones I'm aware of. Similarly, some early 8" drives wanted 3-phase stepping signals, but I haven't seen a specimen in the last 20 years. Similarly, there are drives with door locks and auto-ejects that can be ignored. SImilarly, if you've got INDEX, you can derive READY yourself and you probably don't care and don't want to deal with DISK CHANGED signals. There's no point to using the 8" drive on-board FM data separator. Why complicate things? Two DC-37 connectors will allow you to control 8 drives and yet keep the cabling simple. > Speaking of precompensation, does anyone know anything about the innards of > the 'write precompensation' (early/late/normal) stuff that's generally a part > of most modern floppy controllers? I'm curious to find out what that actually > does, and if I need to do it on my controller. Generally write precompensation isn't used in FM mode. However, in MFM, it comes into play on the inner tracks when domain edges get "fuzzier", mostly as a result of the medium. To keep things as distinct as possible, a clever kludge is used to either advance or retard the start of a bit cell depending on current the bit being written and the last two bits just written and the next bit to be written: Here are some common patterns and their precompensation (display this with a monospaced font): Bits just written Current bit Next bit Action ----------------- ----------- -------- ------ X1 1 0 Advance (early) X0 1 1 Retard (late) 00 0 1 Advance 10 0 0 Retard XX X X Nominal timing The amount of precompensation on an 8" floppy is usually about 200 nsec. The logic for this becomes more apparent if you sketch out the bit cells. The usual way that precomp is determined in a controller is to run the data stream through a shift register and use come combinatorial logic to determine what should be done. Typically, the data stream from most floppies is a bit "noisy" (you'll see what I mean from some CW histograms). So you should have the capability of rejecting a pulse that follows too soon after the previous one. Better data separators can even fill in a missing pulse if necessary. Hope this helps! Cheers, Chuck From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon May 7 22:47:57 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:47:57 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> Can the drives be formatted on a VAXstation 2000 and moved to a PRO ? (like you can do from a VS2000 to a PDP-11 (with RQDX3 ?)) -- Curt Roger Ivie wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2007, C H Dickman wrote: >>> Other drives that have been used were >>> >>> RD31 == ST225 >>> RD32 == ST250 >>> >> How would these have been formatted since the RQDX1/2 doesn't know >> anything about RD31 or RD32? The Pro tech manual describes a >> formatting function that lets you lay down a low-level format for a >> given track. Could a drive be formatted in the field using the Pro or >> did the drive just come pre-formatted? > > Well, when I fiddled with an ST-251 in my Pro350, I wrote my own > formatter. The register layout is close enough to the traditional IBM/PC > AT type controller that it wasn't particularly hard. > > I've lost the code, though, so I can't really offer anything beyond > moral support. I do, however, have the original PC formatter code that I > started from (in TURBO Pascal 3.01), if that's helpful (I would suspect > not). From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 7 22:55:59 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:55:59 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463FF4CF.70804@atarimuseum.com> Hi Rich, I don't see why he'd specifically need a vax, with all of the CPU cores available (such as those used in MAME and other emulators) sounds like you could tap one of the CPU core emulation guys to custom tailer a CPU core environment for the guy, of course you'd then need a compiler and other utils customized for the task as well, still doable, but no reason it could'nt be done on a PC under Windows or Linux or even on a MAC under OSX Curt Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island > who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a > commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like > drinking from a fire hose and I can?t remember it all), basically he is > looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that > the ?instructions? that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit > instructions (or multiples thereof), so he?s looking for someone with that > kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I > think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I?m not knowledgeable about any of > the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that?s > a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. > > If anyone?s willing to have a conversation with this person, please > contact me off list and I?ll pass on his contact information. > > Thanks. > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 7 11:35:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:35:09 -0600 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island > who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a > commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like > drinking from a fire hose and I can?t remember it all), basically he is > looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that > the ?instructions? that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit > instructions (or multiples thereof), so he?s looking for someone with that > kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I > think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I?m not knowledgeable about any of > the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that?s > a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. Hack Hack Hack ... Thunder Bolts ... It lives ... The PDP-8 I just want to play GOD this week and create LIFE ... .... I don't think it matters much about using 6 bits of a 8 bit byte since right now the software model of *RNA trinary encoded bit patterns maps to 3D atomic structures* is lacking proper simplification. The only man , John von Neumann worked on both problems ... Life & computers. While computers have had only about 60+ years of developement life has been going on for 3 billion years with out a hardware/software change. Life may only have been able to develop a 6 bit code because it follows his cellular automation model. Computer science/Life science has stopped development I think since the early 70's. This is the place to start but it is hard to know just what background the 'Doctor' has with computer and life science. I do know what kind of machine this will be ... the Jurasic Park type super computer as the end result. Since this research is for making money I don't think the finer hardware/software details will be released as pure scientific knowlage. PS. Ethan if you do get the 'codes' for software emulation my guess is to use your 'life' board to sumulate the real life program. From doug at stillhq.com Mon May 7 23:44:35 2007 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 14:44:35 +1000 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705071703.l47H1q7s000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705071703.l47H1q7s000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> "Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec." Cool - RT-11 isn't that big, is it? If it is only a simple O/S, and a couple of utilities, then why don't we clean room it, and produce an open version. Shouldn't be that hard. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 23:58:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 21:58:14 -0700 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <463FA0F6.21134.2F10E4F1@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 10:35, woodelf wrote: > the ?instructions? that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit > instructions (or multiples thereof), so he?s looking for someone with that > kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I > think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I?m not knowledgeable about any of > the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that?s > a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. Before the S/360, 6 bit opcodes/characters reigned surpreme. Just think of all of the big iron with word sizes of 6 bits... Too bad we don't have much of it left. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 00:13:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 01:13:57 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 5/7/07, woodelf wrote: > PS. Ethan if you do get the 'codes' for software emulation > my guess is to use your 'life' board to sumulate the real life program. How did _I_ get dragged into this? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 00:26:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:26:16 -0700 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <463FA0F6.21134.2F10E4F1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca>, <463FA0F6.21134.2F10E4F1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463FA788.8337.2F2A8C5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 21:58, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Before the S/360, 6 bit opcodes/characters reigned surpreme. Just > think of all of the big iron with word sizes of 6 bits... Dang---I hit "send" too quickly. Make that "big iron with word sizes that are a multiple of 6 bits". --Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue May 8 00:35:31 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:35:31 -0700 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> Message-ID: <46400C23.2060903@mindspring.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > [...snipped...] > > "Rod Smallwood" skrev: > > > [...snipped...] > > However I'd still like to know what are the answers to the > fundimental questions: > > > > 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? > > Yes. As someone who have customers who still buy from Mentec I can > definitely confirm that they were still selling ten months ago. Can't > see a reason why they should have stopped since then. This is RSX and > layered products, by the way. I can understand that Mentec might be making money from ongoing monthly support contracts, but I fail to be convinced that Mentec is making any money from selling *new* PDP-11 software licenses. Do do so would assume the deployment of 'new' currently unlicensed PDP-11 systems, which I would think is highly unlikely at this point. Where would the hardware come from, other that used equipment liquidators selling old systems? The only other application would be running PDP-11 applications on new E11 (or Charon) or SIMH platforms, which to me seems laughable from a business perspective. If I went into *any* vendor at this point and saw they were running their computing environment on PDP-8s/PDP-11s I'd immediately run for the nearest exit. > > > 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? > > No. I think they stopped manufacturing "real" PDP-11 hardware, and are > now pushing for emulators. However, that is a grey zone. We haven't > had a real "true" PDP-11 CPU since the 11/20. All the rest are > microcoded. Microcode is also software. :-) One man's opinion, I guess. > > > 3. Why have Mentec removed all mention of PDP-11 products from > their web sites. > That is a really good question, and one which I don't have an answer > to. But I'd like to know if someone else have. > Johnny www.mentec.com is the corporate site I haven't seen mention of anything PDP-11 related on it for quite some time. OTOH www.mentec-inc.com is the US-based PDP-11 site that up until last year was up and running, and had info on all their RT/RSX/RSTS products. For the last year or so www.mentec-inc.com has been offline and 'under construction' (and still is). All of this is just my opinion, of course. Don North PDP-11/44 owner running 2.11BSD since nuthin' else is legit. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 01:04:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:04:03 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne>, Message-ID: <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 19:30, Christian Corti wrote: > Taiwan dollars? ;-) > To bring it to an end, it appears that the market for those machines is > much bigger in the US than in Europe, hence the price differences. No, it's the US psyche. You've obviously never seen the US version of "Antiques Roadshow". All sorts of stuff being appraised at insane prices. As in "Zebulon Cowsnuffle was a major artistic force in East Jawbone. As a primitivist, his works are very desirable now. I believe that napking with a catsup stain that you have would bring about $50,000 at auction." Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 7 13:15:26 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:15:26 -0600 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <463F6CBE.8050603@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/7/07, woodelf wrote: >> PS. Ethan if you do get the 'codes' for software emulation >> my guess is to use your 'life' board to sumulate the real life program. > > How did _I_ get dragged into this? Sorry. I was sure you posted something with this thread ... I better go check my trash ... > -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 7 13:18:22 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:18:22 -0600 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> References: <200705071703.l47H1q7s000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <463F6D6E.3030002@jetnet.ab.ca> Doug Jackson wrote: > > "Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec." > > Cool - RT-11 isn't that big, is it? If it is only a simple O/S, and a > couple of utilities, then why don't we clean room it, and produce an > open version. > Shouldn't be that hard. Let one not forget important software like a editor and a assembler and a linker. Who wants to write a Fortran Complier too. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 8 01:36:37 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 23:36:37 -0700 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <46400C23.2060903@mindspring.com> References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> <46400C23.2060903@mindspring.com> Message-ID: At 10:35 PM -0700 5/7/07, Don North wrote: >I can understand that Mentec might be making money from ongoing >monthly support contracts, but I fail to be convinced that Mentec is >making any money from selling *new* PDP-11 software licenses. Do do >so would assume the deployment of 'new' currently unlicensed PDP-11 >systems, which I would think is highly unlikely at this point. Where >would the hardware come from, other that used equipment liquidators >selling old systems? The only other application would be running >PDP-11 applications on new E11 (or Charon) or SIMH platforms, which >to me seems laughable from a business perspective. I know for a fact there are new installations going on periodically. I also know someone who purchased a new license from them in the last two months. >If I went into *any* vendor at this point and saw they were running >their computing environment on PDP-8s/PDP-11s I'd immediately run >for the nearest exit. Then you don't want to know who I sold a couple PDP-11's to a few years ago. :^) As I and others have mentioned here before there are reasons for this. In some cases it works, so why mess with it. Those are the ones that will typically move to an emulation based solution when the hardware breaks, at least they do if they can't easily obtain replacement hardware. In other cases there are requirements to recertify any new hardware or software. Such certifications can cost in excess of a Million Dollars (yes, US Dollars). Situations such as this are why things such as working RD53's and RA81's command a premium. In other cases the computer is connected via very specialized interfaces to very expensive equipment. This is where companies like Strobe Data and their PCI-to-QBus/Unibus expansions come into play. This likely falls at least partially into the second example, some manufacturing processes specify a certain configuration with zero changes for "X" years. New plants designed to manufacture the same item have to be built exactly the same. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From davidfrkane at gmail.com Tue May 8 03:06:17 2007 From: davidfrkane at gmail.com (David Kane) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:06:17 +1000 Subject: SC/MP LCDS In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: Wow I never saw an SC/MP message on this list before, well maybe one. I loved the SC/MP from way back when Electronics Australia magazine ran the Mini-SCMP construction articles (which I have collected). I always wanted to build one. I saw one built by a student at my high school, he was showing it off at the school fate. I would be interested in knowing when you start to put things SC/MP related up for auction. David Kane On 5/8/07, Billy Pettit wrote: > > river wrote: > > I don't know if you saw the SC/MP LCDS (Low Cost Development System) for > sale on eBay (Australia) last week, but I bought it. I've been looking for > one of these babies for a long time, and to find one for sale near where I > live was too good to be true. > > [snip] > > I'll let you know how I go. > > River > > ----------- > > Billy: > > Wish I had known you were looking for this. I tried to find someone > interested in the SC/MP a couple of times. Not even a nibble so I put > them > on the bottom of the boxes of stuff to sell. > > I've a couple of the small development systems and the thick binder with > all > the technical stuff. Plus some loose SC/MP boards and documentation. I > indexed it about 2 months ago then packed it up for the selling spree I > going to start when I retire (later this year). > > I've learned that most of what I have to sell is common junk with little > value and the occasional rarity. I put the SC/MP development systems in > the > junk category since there was no interest. The hard to find items are > going > to be easy to move. The rest are going to be a real pain. I've already > been giving some of them away or even tossing. > > Billy > > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 04:12:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 04:12:11 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> What OS are you going to end up driving this from? > > I dunno. If I have a lapse in sanity I'll write it in Java (which means > it'll run veeery slooowly on just about anything) It shouldn't be too bad to be honest - there's going to be a fair bit of "wait for user input" and "wait for device" in there, and Java tends to be reasonable when processing raw data if there's not lots of thread synchronisation and object creation in the way. It might be let down by availability of bit-level operations, but then most languages are... > otherwise I'll use it > as an excuse to learn wxWidgets (which means it'll run on Windows, > Linux, OS X and BSD, which covers about 95% of the market). I was thinking GTK+ :-) But yeah, doesn't matter... a goal of portability's the main thing to my mind. I'm not sure what device access is like under Windows (particularly from Java) - from Linux / Mac it's probably just as simple as opening an I/O stream and reading/writing. >> (It is on a PCI card isn't it, rather than a USB interface?) > > PCI?! PCI?! Why the hell would I do something as monumentally STUPID as > that? After all, the PCI-SIG's licence fees are 'just a bit' steep IMO :) :-) You know I'd assumed that there was some sort of "testing/hobbyist" scenario where you could just do what you wanted without fear of stomping all over commercial cards... > My plan is to do a USB version USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... But seriously, yes an external device is probably more useful than an internal card I think. And an external card can always be mounted internally anyway :-) > that's small enough to shove into a > laptop bag with a wall-wart and a 3.5" drive so that you can handle the > "Joe Bloggs has the discs, will let someone image them, but won't let > the Royal Mail handle them" Very good point. > ST-506 is coming in Version 2 :) Hmmm. I'm not sure if the current implementation's quick enough though... you probably need to be sampling at around 50MHz for ST506. But I assume there are faster chips out there you can use? >> Regarding earlier question about bringing some address lines out to >> the I/O connector... the logical choices I suppose are a 40 pin header >> or a 50 pin header. > > Maybe. IDC headers are pretty cheap. I don't have many in stock ATM > though - just a couple of 34-way box headers and a few PC floppy cables. Scavenging from scrap I/O cards works well. >> 40 doesn't seem like enough though assuming you keep odd pins as >> ground still; it's only another 3 pins, and won't you need one of >> those for the write precomp line for 8" drives? > > Argh, I'm going to have to read through those Shugart manuals again! That's going from hazy memory of discussions on here... I'm rather new to the 8" drive game. I gather there's an interface line which gets toggled on at least some 8" drives and tells the drive to do write precomp; I think this line was replaced with another signal when things moved to 5.25" drives though, so it's not available separately on the standard 34-way header. >> 50 would give you an extra 8 pins to play with[1] though. If one of >> those is reserved for a write precomp line, that still leaves seven >> unused. Say reserve four for addressing, and the other three for the >> uses which we haven't thought of yet? ;-) > > You're after sixteen addressable drives then. Ooookay... :-) Not really, but if you have 7 extra lines to play with it makes sense to set aside a few of them for addressing. Hook up an 8", 5.25" DD, 5.25" HD, 3.5" HD and 3" drive, and you already need three lines for addressing - that's before worrying about other oddball stuff. Better safe than sorry... [Out of interest, I wonder if this gadget will be able to drive one of those floppy tape units? I've got no idea how their protocol works...] >> [1] Assuming the ability to have two drives on the same cable as per >> the PC standard... if you don't do that I suppose it frees up a couple >> of pins of the 'standard' connector. > > I'm keeping that in. I want to be able to hook up a 5.25" FDD and a 3.5" > FDD at the same time. Remember - I'm building this thing as a > combination analyser/imager (hence the name - Data Analysis and Recovery > Toolkit) with the primary goal being to be able to image 'odd' floppy > formats that a PC controller just can't touch. Absolutely... hence the need for having lots of drives connected at once via an addressing scheme. It just feels a bit 'cleaner' to have one drive per cable and have termination set on all drives, somehow. But never mind, as the way you're doing it, it should still work in that configuration anyway :) > - Full decode support for Commodore GCR, Apple GCR, PC MFM, PC FM, and > whatever other formats I can get hold of formatting specs for. I saw some nice documentation about how M2FM worked *somewhere*. I'll shout if I remember where it was now. > If/when I > release the hardware (I might do a small production run if anyone's > interested) I'd have one in preference to a Catweasel board... > FWIW, by "decode support", I mean "take the raw bitstream and turn it > into bytes, then decode those into sectors". I'm not doing filesystem > decoding, that can wait until later. Definitely a separate project! cheers Jules -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 04:30:59 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 04:30:59 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk>, <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46404353.3040300@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't think there's anything that can't be handled with a DC-37 > connector--and that's with 4 drive selects. You don't need the > separated data from 8" drives, so let's look at what signals you do > need: > > DS0 > DS1 > DS2 > DS3 > MOTOR ON or HEAD LOAD* > SIDE SELECT > INDEX > TRACK 0 > STEP > DIRECTION > READ DATA (RAW) > WRITE DATA > WRITE GATE > WRITE PROTECTED > SECTOR (if you want to use the 8" signal) > TG43 > > *Saying that both HDLD and MTRON are the same signal simplifies > accommodating 8" drives and doesn't hurt a thing. Some drives have speed control on one of the pins (300/600 RPM, or 300/360 RPM), LED signal, motorised eject, disk change reset etc. - I suspect that it doesn't hurt to have a few I/O lines set aside on the interface connector for special cases. Not to mention some drives getting power over the 'data' cable, but the less said about those the better :-) > 16 signal lines + return = 32 pins. Some NEC 3.5" floppies have some > very strange "extra" signals, but they're the only ones I'm aware of. > Similarly, some early 8" drives wanted 3-phase stepping signals, but > I haven't seen a specimen in the last 20 years. Similarly, there are > drives with door locks and auto-ejects that can be ignored. I'm not sure that ignoring the less-common cases is a good idea though, simply because *everything* is becoming less common now. I was amazed at how difficult it was to find a 5.25" HD drive recently; they've all but vanished despite being so common in PCs at one time. I expect getting a 5.25" 40T drive is even harder for a lot of people. > There's no point to using the 8" drive on-board FM data separator. > Why complicate things? Two DC-37 connectors will allow you to > control 8 drives and yet keep the cabling simple. Wouldn't you have to have motors running on four drives at once, though? I'm not sure that it matters in practice though as for an archival box I suppose you only have one disk in one of the drives at any one time... > Generally write precompensation isn't used in FM mode. [snip] Now that was interesting stuff... thanks. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 05:32:18 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 05:32:18 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges Message-ID: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> How common were drives which could read these? I suspect the answer is "not very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the media? I've got a couple of such Sony cartridges here dating from 1991; one does call itself a data cartridge (QG-112M) - the other one is a PAL/SECAM 90-minute Video8 tape (P5-90MP). Going from the labels, both have backups from some UNIX system on them - but (helpfully!) no clue as to what that system was or what backup program wrote them. From the huge box of floppies that I found them in though, I suspect that they might be from an Olivetti 3B2 - in which case they're possibly just tar dumps. I'm not sure what my chances are of finding a drive to read them are though (and worse still, such a drive might not be SCSI and so require a proprietary interface card and drivers). The packrat in me wants to try reading them rather than just tossing them out though :-) cheers Jules From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 8 05:44:15 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 11:44:15 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: >> I dunno. If I have a lapse in sanity I'll write it in Java (which >> means it'll run veeery slooowly on just about anything) > > It shouldn't be too bad to be honest - there's going to be a fair bit of > "wait for user input" and "wait for device" in there, and Java tends to > be reasonable when processing raw data if there's not lots of thread > synchronisation and object creation in the way. Have you ever actually used Java on anything less than a 1GHz box? When my laptop steps down to 500MHz, Java apps become intolerably slow. Admittedly it's nice because a lot of the data processing algorithms are already implemented and ready for use, but for some thing's it's just too slow. Not to mention the amount of memory it hogs just for doing something simple like a "hello world" window. > I was thinking GTK+ :-) So compile wxWidgets to use the GTK backend - I get my object-oriented API (I've been spoiled by Swing), you get your cute little GTK widgets. Win-win :) > But yeah, doesn't matter... a goal of > portability's the main thing to my mind. I'm not sure what device access > is like under Windows (particularly from Java) - from Linux / Mac it's > probably just as simple as opening an I/O stream and reading/writing. On Linux you've got LibUSB, which has been ported to Windows too (but works in a slightly different way due to the kernel-mode and driver differences - on Linux it uses usbdevfs, on Windows there's a device driver). I have a sneaking suspicion LibUSB also works on the BSDs... Ah, here we go (from libusb.sourceforge.net): Operating System support: Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Darwin, MacOS X And for LibUSB-win32: Libusb-win32 is a port of the USB library libusb to the Windows operating systems (Win98SE, WinME, Win2k, WinXP). The library allows user space applications to access any USB device on Windows in a generic way without writing any line of kernel driver code. Like I said - I get a single API, everyone else gets cross-platform compatibility. Win-win again. > :-) You know I'd assumed that there was some sort of "testing/hobbyist" > scenario where you could just do what you wanted without fear of > stomping all over commercial cards... It's the same as USB really - you pick a manufacturer ID that isn't in the Linux PCI-ID list, then pray it doesn't conflict. Then there's the bus protocol - for USB I can use a PIC18F4550 which has a built-in USB slave adapter, for PCI I need to cook up the PHY and a VxD/kernel driver for it. Lots of extra effort for very little gain. > USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining in various combinations, give up, go home. I don't like SCSI much, can you tell? > But seriously, yes an external device is probably more useful than an > internal card I think. And an external card can always be mounted > internally anyway :-) Oh yes - in this case you just chop the end off a USB A-B cable, screw the external device down to something, then crimp a connector onto the B end of the cable and plug it into the USB header on the motherboard. External becomes internal, nice and easy. It's much harder to do the reverse, especially with PCI cards. >> that's small enough to shove into a laptop bag with a wall-wart and a >> 3.5" drive so that you can handle the "Joe Bloggs has the discs, will >> let someone image them, but won't let the Royal Mail handle them" > > Very good point. Quick question - does the write protect sensor on floppy drives also lock out the write circuitry, or does the drive depend on the controller not trying to do silly things like writing to protected floppies? >> ST-506 is coming in Version 2 :) > > Hmmm. I'm not sure if the current implementation's quick enough > though... you probably need to be sampling at around 50MHz for ST506. > But I assume there are faster chips out there you can use? I was joking, but ISE reckons the logic's good to 70MHz. That's still nearly a 50% safety margin over 50MHz. That said, I don't have any ST506 type drives, but making a "semi virtual disc" clone for the ST506 interface would be quite neat. > Scavenging from scrap I/O cards works well. Only if you've got scrap I/O cards to scavenge from. > That's going from hazy memory of discussions on here... I'm rather new > to the 8" drive game. I gather there's an interface line which gets > toggled on at least some 8" drives and tells the drive to do write > precomp; I think this line was replaced with another signal when things > moved to 5.25" drives though, so it's not available separately on the > standard 34-way header. You're not as new as I am - I don't even HAVE an 8" drive. I want to get a 5.25" DD (both 40 and 80 track variants) first, though, as mine's a HD and I can't tell how to jumper it for 300RPM. It's a YE Data YD-380B, just on the offchance anyone has a jumper list knocking about... Otherwise I might dismantle the motor board and trace the speed control pin back to its source... > [Out of interest, I wonder if this gadget will be able to drive one of > those floppy tape units? I've got no idea how their protocol works...] Might be able to. It'd be mostly a case of writing software, assuming the data format is fairly standard MFM. > Absolutely... hence the need for having lots of drives connected at once > via an addressing scheme. It just feels a bit 'cleaner' to have one > drive per cable and have termination set on all drives, somehow. But > never mind, as the way you're doing it, it should still work in that > configuration anyway :) So you think it'd be better to have TTL out of the I/O port, then have a set of O/C buffers on the adapter cards, and have a separate O/C buffer set for the PC FDD port? Hmm, the cost just keeps mounting... > I saw some nice documentation about how M2FM worked *somewhere*. I'll > shout if I remember where it was now. It's in the Intel Intellec disc controller manuals (on Bitsavers no less), if this page is accurate: > I'd have one in preference to a Catweasel board... OK, that's one potential sale then. Any more takers? :P >> FWIW, by "decode support", I mean "take the raw bitstream and turn it >> into bytes, then decode those into sectors". I'm not doing filesystem >> decoding, that can wait until later. > > Definitely a separate project! Ho yus. There are far too many weird formats out there to handle them all. Better IMO to just handle bit-level decoding in DART, then write something else to handle splitting out the data from the sector headers, etc. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 05:56:36 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 03:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > > How common were drives which could read these? I > suspect the answer is "not > very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the > media? > I've got a couple of such Sony cartridges here > dating from 1991; one does call > itself a data cartridge (QG-112M) - the other one is > a PAL/SECAM 90-minute > Video8 tape (P5-90MP). Actually, they're pretty common from what I have seen, but then again, I work with lots of systems that use them. Those are Exabyte cartridges - you need to find an Exabyte drive. Pretty common on eBay, expect to pay around $15. The Exabyte drives are SCSI, and are pretty reliable. There are several models, but since we're talking about the older tapes, and since one of them is a re-used video tape, you're looking for an Exabyte 8200 or 8500, I'd say. Those drives are 5 1/4" FH form factor SCSI drives. Both tapes and drives seem pretty reliable, and using video tape for data DOES work, although it's not technically reccomended. Be patient with those old Exabyte drives though, they take a long time to do anything (like open the door, rewind...) and need to be properly connected and terminated to be able to open the door, or disconnected totally (i.e., if you have a external drive with a terminator plugged into the drive, but it's not connected to the computer, it won't open) -Ian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 06:39:58 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:39:58 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4640618E.70304@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/05/2007 11:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > > How common were drives which could read these? I suspect the answer is > "not very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the media? Fairly common, in their day, and they were SCSI (at least all the ones I've come across are). Look for an Exabyte 8200. You weren't supposed to use ordinary video tape, but lots of people did. They're slow but reasonably reliable. The tapes would typically be written with tar or occasionally cpio on a Unix system (and there's software to use them with tar on an Acorn Archimedes running RISC OS), but I know some people used dump/restore. I'm not sure if I still have mine, but I'll look if no-one else volunteers. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 06:37:05 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 06:37:05 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <464060E1.4070803@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Have you ever actually used Java on anything less than a 1GHz box? Yes, constantly for over ten years :-) > When > my laptop steps down to 500MHz, Java apps become intolerably slow. You know, it seems to depend largely on the VM. Sun have lost the plot in the last few years and just kept on piling features in when they should have given up and declared "this is Java" about five years ago. The older VMs scream along very nicely, but I know the modern one I've got on the laptop is an absolute dog :( > Admittedly it's nice because a lot of the data processing algorithms are > already implemented and ready for use, but for some thing's it's just > too slow. Generally it's very good providing you're not trying to create massive Swing applications with it using scads of eye-candy. Unfortunately that's exactly what a lot of people try and do first, and then it gets a bad rep for being slow. > Not to mention the amount of memory it hogs just for doing > something simple like a "hello world" window. I'd suggest there are far better languages for writing "Hello World" in ;-) >> I was thinking GTK+ :-) > > So compile wxWidgets to use the GTK backend - I get my object-oriented > API (I've been spoiled by Swing), you get your cute little GTK widgets. > Win-win :) That works. I know nothing about wxWidgets or GTK+, incidentally, other than being aware that there is a Windows port of the latter :-) If I have to have some form of cross-platform graphical UI it gets done in Java (or a web browser via PHP), if it just needs a simple Linux text-mode UI then it gets done in C, and if it needs to run solely on MS Windows it doesn't get done at all :-) >> USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... > > USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. > SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace > cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace > terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining in > various combinations, give up, go home. > > I don't like SCSI much, can you tell? :-) Oddly enough I've had exactly the opposite experience to you, and it's been USB that's plagued with problems, whilst SCSI has Just Worked*. * Except for whenever I go near a bit of NeXT hardware, where the SCSI bus automagically seems to break if I so much as look at it funny. > External becomes internal, nice and easy. It's much harder to do the > reverse, especially with PCI cards. It's one of the major reasons I don't want a Catweasel, to be honest. > Quick question - does the write protect sensor on floppy drives also > lock out the write circuitry, or does the drive depend on the controller > not trying to do silly things like writing to protected floppies? I suspect that's open to interpretation by the drive manufacturer, to be honest. >>> ST-506 is coming in Version 2 :) >> >> Hmmm. I'm not sure if the current implementation's quick enough >> though... you probably need to be sampling at around 50MHz for ST506. >> But I assume there are faster chips out there you can use? > > I was joking Well don't! :) Seriously, it's a project that could do with being done by someone, and in theory it is just a big, fast floppy drive full 'o bits, so if the interface can be run fast enough (and contain enough buffer memory) it's possible it could be done. >> Scavenging from scrap I/O cards works well. > > Only if you've got scrap I/O cards to scavenge from. More than you can ever possibly need on your doorstep via your local Freecycle list :-) > and I can't tell how to jumper it for 300RPM. It's a YE Data YD-380B, > just on the offchance anyone has a jumper list knocking about... I'll have a look... >> [Out of interest, I wonder if this gadget will be able to drive one of >> those floppy tape units? I've got no idea how their protocol works...] > > Might be able to. It'd be mostly a case of writing software, assuming > the data format is fairly standard MFM. I'm really not sure. I don't know if those sorts of drives just looked like a big floppy disk (and control was done purely via twiddling head select / step / direction), or whether they actually interpreted the data stream from the FDC in order to carry out commands. It's not even as high as low priority (!) but I was just curious... >> Absolutely... hence the need for having lots of drives connected at >> once via an addressing scheme. It just feels a bit 'cleaner' to have >> one drive per cable and have termination set on all drives, somehow. >> But never mind, as the way you're doing it, it should still work in >> that configuration anyway :) > > So you think it'd be better to have TTL out of the I/O port, then have a > set of O/C buffers on the adapter cards, and have a separate O/C buffer > set for the PC FDD port? Hmm, the cost just keeps mounting... Well I figure it's probably two or three 74xx series ICs, so it's not expensive/complex. Certainly cheaper than having to build/buy more than one card. I suppose it depends on typical application, but I suspect any serious archive box is going to have several drives attached. I think the main thing though is to have some form of addressing I/O brought out on the board which can be under software control - then there's at least the scope for doing this kind of thing. (and it sure beats having a separate parallel port bodge or something to provide that :-) >> I saw some nice documentation about how M2FM worked *somewhere*. I'll >> shout if I remember where it was now. > > It's in the Intel Intellec disc controller manuals (on Bitsavers no > less), if this page is accurate: > Yeah, that was probably it actually. We've got quite a bit of Intellec stuff at Bletchley. cheers J. -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 06:48:08 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:48:08 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46406378.9060507@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/05/2007 11:44, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Quick question - does the write protect sensor on floppy drives also > lock out the write circuitry, or does the drive depend on the controller > not trying to do silly things like writing to protected floppies? Normally the write protect does indeed disable the write circuitry, at least on 5.25" drives and all the 8" ones I've come across. >> That's going from hazy memory of discussions on here... I'm rather new >> to the 8" drive game. I gather there's an interface line which gets >> toggled on at least some 8" drives and tells the drive to do write >> precomp; I think this line was replaced with another signal when >> things moved to 5.25" drives though, so it's not available separately >> on the standard 34-way header. More to do with write current rather than precomp. It does exist on early 5.25" drives, on pin 2. > You're not as new as I am - I don't even HAVE an 8" drive. I want to get > a 5.25" DD (both 40 and 80 track variants) first, though, as mine's a HD > and I can't tell how to jumper it for 300RPM. It's a YE Data YD-380B, > just on the offchance anyone has a jumper list knocking about... > Otherwise I might dismantle the motor board and trace the speed control > pin back to its source... Pin 2 on 5.25" HD drives is actually supposed to control the write current (ie it's the density select), but is very often jumpered or even hardwired to change the speed as well. On some really old 5.25" drives, pin 2 was actually TG43 (Track Greater than 43), the same signal as found on 8" drives to control the write current. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 06:44:07 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 06:44:07 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- Jules Richardson > wrote: > >> How common were drives which could read these? I >> suspect the answer is "not >> very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the >> media? > > Actually, they're pretty common from what I have seen, > but then again, I work with lots of systems that use > them. Those are Exabyte cartridges - you need to find > an Exabyte drive. Aha... interesting. I'll give local Freecycle a prod and see if anyone has one nearby that I can borrow. What with Andy's post and another offer off-list I expect I can attempt a read at some point, anyway! > The Exabyte drives are SCSI, and are pretty reliable. That's good to hear. They reminded me of big DAT tapes, and I've had some pretty nasty experiences with DAT in the past :-) > Both tapes and drives seem pretty reliable, and using > video tape for data DOES work, although it's not > technically reccomended. Well as I'm not sure what's even on them - and whatever is on there is probably something very dull - I'm not too fussed if they turn out to be unreadable. I just figured I should make an effort to at least try! cheers J. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 8 07:06:54 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:06:54 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: I have some somewhere (exabyte) I shall go dig in a few days Dave Caroline On 5/8/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > How common were drives which could read these? I suspect the answer is "not > very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the media? > > I've got a couple of such Sony cartridges here dating from 1991; one does call > itself a data cartridge (QG-112M) - the other one is a PAL/SECAM 90-minute > Video8 tape (P5-90MP). > > Going from the labels, both have backups from some UNIX system on them - but > (helpfully!) no clue as to what that system was or what backup program wrote > them. From the huge box of floppies that I found them in though, I suspect > that they might be from an Olivetti 3B2 - in which case they're possibly just > tar dumps. > > I'm not sure what my chances are of finding a drive to read them are though > (and worse still, such a drive might not be SCSI and so require a proprietary > interface card and drivers). The packrat in me wants to try reading them > rather than just tossing them out though :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > > From river at zip.com.au Tue May 8 07:11:50 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:11:50 +1000 Subject: SC/MP LCDS In-Reply-To: <200705081148.l48BkVme015846@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070508121151.2A2B58C19@mailproxy1.pacific.net.au> Hi, Yes, I built one of those Miniscamps also. I think I've always had a soft spot for the SC/MP since that time. I bought some SC/MP chips a few years ago and most of them did not work, but a couple did and I built up a small system with 4K RAM, 4K EPROM, 8255 PPI and an 8251 USART. I wrote a small program to test that it all works, and a "Lazy brown fox" message through the serial port. It worked fine, then I got distracted in expanding an AIM65... then I got a hold of a couple more AIMs, and they were broken so I set about fixing them. I guess time just got away and I got more distracted with a cantencerous Central Data 2650 system. So, the home-built SC/MP system still sits waiting for me to write a debug/monitor for it. However, now I've got the LCDS I've got the vigour back and will fix it and also get back to my home built one. I too am interested in any SC/MP stuff that's for sale. river From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 8 07:23:44 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 07:23:44 -0500 Subject: Mentec References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> Message-ID: <015e01c7916b$b9f83c50$6600a8c0@BILLING> Johnny wrote... > Jerome makes some interesting, if strange and faulty assumptions. > Such as assuming that since Mentec hasn't complained although people > "appear" to have been using and posting about RT-11 on classiccmp list > for a long time. ...and... > So I would somewhat ignore Jeromes view on the legality of things. No, actually, Jerome's points are valid and his views are worth far more than an admonishment to ignore them. I should point out something that you dont seem to be aware of (at least based on your statement above) - a demonstrable pattern of non-enforcement of license does in fact weaken the ability to enforce it. That is why often a company will act to notify, issue a cease & desist, etc. an infringing entity about an infraction of license that they actually in fact don't really care about - because it can then be argued that they didn't enforce it in case xyz, so how can they selectively enforce it in another instance. This is also one of several reasons that some - not all - companies are wary of creating a hobbyist license, because there is some amount of perception that it will put their ability to enforce a license at peril - or at the least possibly cloud the issue. On a separate and unrelated point, I believe Johnny (or someone) questioned whether Mentec is aware of this list, various archives, etc. I can assure you that they are, just as Jerome intoned. Best regards, Jay West From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 09:11:07 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 10:11:07 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 06:44, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > I was thinking GTK+ :-) > > So compile wxWidgets to use the GTK backend - I get my > object-oriented API (I've been spoiled by Swing), you get your cute > little GTK widgets. Win-win :) It seems to me that it'd make more sense to write some sort of UI in plain ANSI C, with a text-based UI. Worry about the GUI part later (and then you can feel free to use whatever whiz-bang graphics you want without annoying people like me, if it's got a good CLI). Possibly just write a library for doing basically everything you want to do with the device, and distribute that with some sort of API reference, which should make writing a clean/portable/changeable UI that much easier. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rivie at ridgenet.net Tue May 8 09:53:26 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 07:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2007, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Can the drives be formatted on a VAXstation 2000 and moved to a PRO ? > (like you can do from a VS2000 to a PDP-11 (with RQDX3 ?)) I doubt it. Folks have been talking about formatting on an RQDX1. The RQDX1 uses a different format than that used by the RQDX2 and the VS2000. You can't format a disk on an RQDX1 and use it in an RQDX2. The RQDX2 was built around a single-chip disk controller, SMC's HDC9224. The same controller was used in the VS2000. The RQDX1 had a hand-crafted disk controller that used a slightly different format. Among other things, an RQDX1 can stuff 18 sectors on a track whereas the RQDX2, VS2000, and PCs for that matter can only do 17. Rumor has it there are also other differences in the format between the RQDX1 and the RQDX2, but I really don't recall what they are. I know nothing about the details of the low-level format used by the Pro 350, but if it's compatible with the RQDX1, it won't be compatible with the RQDX2 and VS2000. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 8 09:55:57 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 07:55:57 -0700 Subject: [midatlanticretro] WTD: Morrow Wunderbuss Thinker Toys Motherboard Schematic/docs In-Reply-To: <463FEC34.50902@comcast.net> Message-ID: >From: Dan > >I almost posted a lengthly explanation on the march group list before I >noticed you posted the pic on cctech. The power supply in that circuit is a >-12V not +12V. The voltage regulator part # on there is a 7912 which >outputs -12V. The part that is blown on there is an electrolytic cap, not a >zener (note the + sign on each end of the cap). Both of those parts below >the 7912 are the same type of part. Hi It may be that the zener is the regulator and not a 7912. Zeners die from old age as well as over rating. Check to see what the current draw is for the circuit that would be powered by one of these shunt type regulators. This can most easily be done with a variable bench supply. Break the connection to the unregulated input( a piece of tape on the input is fine ). After replacing the zener, connect the bench supply. Slowly bring the voltage to the input resistor up until the zener just starts limiting the voltage across the zener. Measure the voltage across the resistor and after powering down, measure the resistance of the resistor ( not always what the color bands say ). Use this to calculate the current. This is the current of the load. Now, measure the unregulated voltage of the S-100 frame. The difference is how much drop you must provide by the resistor. Take that drop and calculate the current that would be through the resistor. Subtract the load current. This is the current that the zener must absorb. A simple power calculation will give you the rating needed. I've seen several times on S-100 boards where the zeners were over powered in a particular s-100 frame because of high unregulated voltages. The resistor really should be selected for each frame the board is palced in. Dwight > >Caps always dry up and blowout--they don't last forever. That's why it's >good to have a Variac when powering equipment that hasn't been on for a >long time--a homemade current limiter helps too if no variac is available. > >But I'm not sure of the value, it can't be very high in value, possibly >only 3.3uf or 4.7uf considering the size, this isn't very critical , so >long as you keep it in the ballpark. The caps for the 7805 regulator on >there beside it are only 2.7uf. I would suggest changing both of them, for >sanity's sake--they both might be damaged. > >The other important issue is to check the traces for damages when you >remove the bad parts. They could have burned through creating an open >circuit. So you'll have to splice the traces back together if this is the >case. Some skinny telephone copper wire always does the trick. And last but >not least, is the 7912 voltage regulator. You should check the -12V power >before you plug in any cards. > > >=Dan > > >[ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] > > > >B. Degnan wrote: >> >>Herb/Anyone else.. >> >>I have a 1977 Morrow Wunderbuss "Thinker Toys" S-100 Motherboard with a >>blown Zener diode near a 12+V position at the back of the board. Anyone >>have a schematic? I checked Herb Johnson's site, there is nothing for this >>board listed. I would like to determine the exact type of diode so I can >>replace it. >> >>What would cause a Zener diode to pop? >> >>Thanks. >>Bill >> >>_ >> _________________________________________________________________ Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You?ll love Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507 From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 8 02:59:48 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 08:59:48 +0100 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <1178611188.4756.0.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 09:03 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 12:07 PM +0100 5/7/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? > > You can still buy licenses, and yes, I do know someone to talk to about it. > > Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec. I emailed them about getting a licence for RT-11 V5.03 that came with my 11/73, and never got a response. I take this to mean that they either don't care, or don't want to know about it. Gordon From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue May 8 02:32:52 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 09:32:52 +0200 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <463F6D6E.3030002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200705071703.l47H1q7s000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> <463F6D6E.3030002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <464027A4.4080209@iais.fraunhofer.de> woodelf schrieb: > Doug Jackson wrote: >> >> "Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec." >> >> Cool - RT-11 isn't that big, is it? If it is only a simple O/S, and >> a couple of utilities, then why don't we clean room it, and produce >> an open version. > >> Shouldn't be that hard. Considering what it does, in comparison to modern operating systems, it looks quite understandable and at a first glance simple; but you shouldn't underestimate that several very skilled people were working to fit the whole thing to the limited ressources of that machines. One does not want to produce a look alike - you can have things like DCL interpreters for modern systems as well (however, DCL is not relevant for RT-11), but you need much efforts to make the beast then *compatible* with the original. I have long experimented with cloning OS/2 after IBM abandoned it, but a lookalike is worthless, and the OS/2 kernel is full of historical kludges which one needs to reinvent to make it do at least a small leap. > Let one not forget important software like a editor and a assembler > and a linker. Who wants to write a Fortran Complier too. I have meanwhile written a number of compilers, so a macro assembler and FORTRAN itself isn't too hard, compared to semantic monsters like C++, in particular if you take such a nice and symmetric CPU like the PDP-11 into account, for which code generation is real fun. What is hard, though, is to fit the whole stuff into 8, 12, 16kW as it is common for those old machines. The idea to take public DECUS C and write it in C (maybe using lex and yacc) will unfortunately likely lead to large binaries. Also TKB and its kernel infrastructure needs some thinking when it comes to overlays and coroutines; 'ld' from Unix and the Unix process loading/scheduling/execution complex is by magnitudes simpler. -- Dr.-Ing. Holger Veit IT-Management Fraunhofer IAIS Institut f?r Intelligente Analyse- und Informationssysteme Schloss Birlinghoven D-53757 Sankt Augustin e-mail: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tel. +49 2241 14 2448 Fax. +49 2241 14 2342 From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue May 8 05:52:59 2007 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 11:52:59 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Jules asks: >>>> How common were drives which could read these? I suspect the answer is "not very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the media? I've got a couple of such Sony cartridges here dating from 1991; one does call itself a data cartridge (QG-112M) - the other one is a PAL/SECAM 90-minute Video8 tape (P5-90MP). ... <<<< Almost certainly these are written by an Exabyte drive. There are at least 2 densities, but the later drive can read the earlier. Suns can handle these (SCSI) drives nicely. I have several drives (both types), but I'm not sure how soon I could get up to Bletchley. Andy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.5/793 - Release Date: 07/05/2007 14:55 From robert at irrelevant.com Tue May 8 10:25:20 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 16:25:20 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705080825r7b04b626y84bcd46ac85338c4@mail.gmail.com> On 08/05/07, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > You're not as new as I am - I don't even HAVE an 8" drive. I want to get a > 5.25" DD (both 40 and 80 track variants) first, though, as mine's a HD and I > can't tell how to jumper it for 300RPM. It's a YE Data YD-380B, just on the I can donate some ex-BBC micro 40T and 80T drives if you need... (I'm near Manchester..) Will your design cope with the weird disc machinations of the Sirius 1 discs? (aka Victor 9000 I believe, in the States) They were variable speed, and I think variable numbers of sectors per track,. The techref is on bitsavers anyway; pp85+ I've not actually got one, but I have some discs for one somewhere.. Rob From kth at srv.net Tue May 8 10:27:30 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 09:27:30 -0600 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> References: <200705071703.l47H1q7s000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <464096E2.5070507@srv.net> Doug Jackson wrote: > > "Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec." > > Cool - RT-11 isn't that big, is it? If it is only a simple O/S, and a > couple of utilities, then why don't we clean room it, and produce an > open version. > > Shouldn't be that hard. Would "fuzzball" be a starting point for this? Heard something about it, but not sure how compatible it is with RT11. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue May 8 11:04:09 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:04:09 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> Roger Ivie wrote: > > Folks have been talking about formatting on an RQDX1. The RQDX1 uses a > different format than that used by the RQDX2 and the VS2000. You can't > format a disk on an RQDX1 and use it in an RQDX2. > Did you mean RQDX3 (instead of RQDX2)? After reading the documentation (RT-11 V5.04 release notes), the Pro is capable of formatting the hard disk itself. RT11 even includes a program for that purpose. It can only format standard drive types of course. DW.SYS (Pro hard disk for RT-11) includes geometries for RD50, RD51, RD52C, RD52Q, RD52A, RD53 and RD31. The handler identifies the drive by determining the number of heads and then when there is a conflict the number of cylinders. The hardware only supports 8 heads (3 select lines). The driver does not support partitions so there is a maximum of 65535 blocks no matter how big the disk. So, it looks like it would be much easier to get a non-standard drive to work with a Pro than with an RQDX3 for example. -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 11:04:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 09:04:43 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 5:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm not sure what my chances are of finding a drive to read them are though > (and worse still, such a drive might not be SCSI and so require a proprietary > interface card and drivers). The packrat in me wants to try reading them > rather than just tossing them out though :-) I've got a few of the Exabyte drives. The late-model cost-reduced drives (top loading) are miserably unreliable. The standard front- loaders were far better constructed. Many shipped in their own boxes with LCD display that would indicate status, number of bytes remaining on the tape, etc. 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. 8mm, like DAT and DLT is an immediate-verify (read after write) technology and isn't bad for the time. There was the same business about confusing 8mm video carts with 8mm data carts as there was with 4 mm DAT audio with 4 mm data. Manufacturers said not to substitute, but a lot of individuals did. All of the 8mm gear that I saw was SCSI. It might be that some manufacturers put together specialized boxes as they did with 4mm (Valitek is one name that comes to mind) to allow for printer-port transfers also. I used to have an ISA card that one hooked up to a VHS recorder to do backups. It was incredibly slow and unreliable. Even in 1991, it was getting to be obvious that the era of tape backup was doomed, with hard disk storage capacities growing like Topsy and tape lagging more an more--although I still use DLT occasionally. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 11:18:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 09:18:16 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <46404353.3040300@yahoo.co.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <46404353.3040300@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46404058.29064.317F781D@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 4:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > Some drives have speed control on one of the pins (300/600 RPM, or 300/360 > RPM), LED signal, motorised eject, disk change reset etc. - I suspect that it > doesn't hurt to have a few I/O lines set aside on the interface connector for > special cases. One of the problems in engineering is knowing when to stop. DC37 connectors are not uncommon, exist in IDC versions (easy attachment). 50-pin D-subs are far less common. IDC headers aren't made for frequent use and are subject to pin breakage and stress on the PCB. Most of the signals you're talking about above are slow signals-- there's no particular need for those extra 5 pins that I mentioned to be paired with a return, so you could have 5 additional programmable pins (1 input, 4 outputs?) if needed. But the basic 32 lines I specified will work with 95%+ of existing drives. But please let's not run power over the cable--I've seen too many toasted drives that resulted from someone getting something wrong. > Wouldn't you have to have motors running on four drives at once, though? I'm > not sure that it matters in practice though as for an archival box I suppose > you only have one disk in one of the drives at any one time... Before IBM came along, there were plenty of systems that ran the 5.25" drive motors at the same time. IBM gave up 2 drive selects with their twist and got to use a feebler PSU on the 5150. Some DTC hard disk/SCSI controllers gave back 4-drive operation by using an "untwisted" cable. I don't see that as a problem. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 11:20:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 12:20:16 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, C H Dickman wrote: > After reading the documentation (RT-11 V5.04 release notes), the Pro is > capable of formatting the hard disk itself. RT11 even includes a program > for that purpose. It can only format standard drive types of course. > > DW.SYS (Pro hard disk for RT-11) includes geometries for RD50, RD51, > RD52C, RD52Q, RD52A, RD53 and RD31... > The hardware only supports 8 heads (3 select > lines). The driver does not support partitions so there is a maximum of > 65535 blocks no matter how big the disk. So does anyone have any docs to check for later versions of RT-11 and supported geometries? I'm specifically thinking of the RD32 (ST-251) of which I have a couple on hand. the drive would support more than 65536 blocks, but I certainly wouldn't be upset if RT-11 gave up at the 32MB mark. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 11:23:08 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4640A3EC.9020907@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > All of the 8mm gear that I saw was SCSI. That's good to hear :) > Even in 1991, it was getting to be obvious that the era of tape > backup was doomed, with hard disk storage capacities growing like > Topsy and tape lagging more an more--although I still use DLT > occasionally. I tend to put stuff on DLT still - unless it's something really large (like a raw archive of some vintage system's hard disk), in which case it gets mirrored to a second hard drive. I always figure there's a lot less to go wrong in a DLT cartridge than there is with a hard disk - but I'm not sure how it all works out in the end given that the physical data surfaces in a hard disk are probably more robust. Maybe the clever thing to do would be to backup twice to two *identical* hard drives, in the hope that if either the logic board or the "mechanical" side went wrong there'd be enough good bits to make up a working unit from which to restore. (Note that I'm talking "home backup" here rather than corporate... I think generally what happens though is that 99.9% of the world's home users don't actually bother backing anything up at all) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 8 11:44:19 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 09:44:19 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges Message-ID: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> > I always figure there's a lot less to go wrong in a DLT cartridge than there > is with a hard disk The flaw in this argument is the time it takes to make another copy, which needs to be done at some point to migrate to newer media. You will only know the DLT has failed when you try to read it again. If you care about the data, it should be kept in a form that is easily replicated and verified, and you should assume that any single copy of that data WILL become corrupted or unreadable over time. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 11:37:16 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 11:37:16 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <46404058.29064.317F781D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <46404353.3040300@yahoo.co.uk> <46404058.29064.317F781D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4640A73C.9050003@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 May 2007 at 4:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Some drives have speed control on one of the pins (300/600 RPM, or 300/360 >> RPM), LED signal, motorised eject, disk change reset etc. - I suspect that it >> doesn't hurt to have a few I/O lines set aside on the interface connector for >> special cases. > > One of the problems in engineering is knowing when to stop. I hear ya :-) > DC37 > connectors are not uncommon, exist in IDC versions (easy attachment). > 50-pin D-subs are far less common. IDC headers aren't made for > frequent use and are subject to pin breakage and stress on the PCB. That one is a good point. I suppose that's up to Phil as to where he's aiming this. Personally I'd use it more as an internal board with lots of drives permanently connected - but I do also like his scenario of being able to just take it on the road with a laptop and a single drive connected. I suppose in the latter situation it needs a case anyway though, and the solution might be to have IDC headers on the board but taken out to the DC37 on the case for plugging into a drive. > Most of the signals you're talking about above are slow signals-- Good point. > there's no particular need for those extra 5 pins that I mentioned to > be paired with a return, so you could have 5 additional programmable > pins (1 input, 4 outputs?) if needed. I know the Manta SCSI-floppy boards that I have are set up like that; I think they have three programmable outputs and then another pin that can be configured as either an input or output (I know the manual states that pin 2 was an input on some drives and an output on others) > But please let's not run power over the cable Heh heh. Definitely agree there! >> Wouldn't you have to have motors running on four drives at once, though? I'm >> not sure that it matters in practice though as for an archival box I suppose >> you only have one disk in one of the drives at any one time... > > Before IBM came along, there were plenty of systems that ran the > 5.25" drive motors at the same time. IBM gave up 2 drive selects > with their twist and got to use a feebler PSU on the 5150. Some DTC > hard disk/SCSI controllers gave back 4-drive operation by using an > "untwisted" cable. I don't see that as a problem. The only issue I have is that this is for an archival box, where it's probably not a good idea to have ancient media spinning any longer than necessary. However: 1) I seem to find that if a disk is going to shed its coating [1] it does so within the first couple of disk revolutions, 2) As above, usage of any such archival device probably doesn't involve typically having more than one disk inserted at a time anyway, so the motors are only on for the length of time needed to access that disk. ... so maybe I'm worrying about nothing. [1] Grey-labeled 5.25" Wabash disks seem to be guaranteed to leave me with a clear disk of plastic and drive heads caked in magnetic coating, regardless of how they've been stored :-( From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 11:50:58 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:50:58 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/05/2007 17:04, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in > specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: > > DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use tapes all that much. > 8mm, like DAT and DLT is an immediate-verify (read after write) > technology and isn't bad for the time. There was the same business > about confusing 8mm video carts with 8mm data carts as there was with > 4 mm DAT audio with 4 mm data. Manufacturers said not to substitute, > but a lot of individuals did. Although I see lots of 8mm video tapes used for data, and relatively few genuine 8mm data tapes, whereas I see lots of DDS data tapes and very few audio DAT tapes. In fact, I seem to remember that you can't use DAT for data, (or was it can't use DDS for audio?) straight off. I stand to be corrected on that, of course :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 11:56:02 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:56:02 +0100 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4640ABA2.7040908@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/05/2007 15:53, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2007, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> Can the drives be formatted on a VAXstation 2000 and moved to a PRO ? >> (like you can do from a VS2000 to a PDP-11 (with RQDX3 ?)) > > I doubt it. > > Folks have been talking about formatting on an RQDX1. The RQDX1 uses a > different format than that used by the RQDX2 and the VS2000. You can't > format a disk on an RQDX1 and use it in an RQDX2. > > The RQDX2 was built around a single-chip disk controller, SMC's HDC9224. > The same controller was used in the VS2000. The RQDX1 had a hand-crafted > disk controller that used a slightly different format. Among other > things, an RQDX1 can stuff 18 sectors on a track whereas the RQDX2, > VS2000, and PCs for that matter can only do 17. That's incorrect; I suspect you're thinking of the RQDX3. The RQDX2 is just a modified RQDX1, and it definitely uses the same controller. They both put 18 sectors per track, and use the same format. You can take a disk formatted on an RQDX1 and connect it to an RQDX2, though in some cases the RQDX2 will alter some values on the disk and then it won't be recognised properly if you move it back to the RQDX1 (depending on the level of firmware on the two controllers). The RQDX3 definitely *is* different, and you have to reformat hard drives for that (and AFAIR *that's* the same format as VS2000). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 12:11:03 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 10:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > > I always figure there's a lot less to go wrong in > a DLT cartridge than there > > is with a hard disk > > The flaw in this argument is the time it takes to > make another copy, which needs > to be done at some point to migrate to newer media. > > You will only know the DLT has failed when you try > to read it again. DLT is great, I use it a lot, and we also use it at work. Very reliable from what I've seen, only time you run into issues is with the drive itself, and really, really worn out tapes. If possible, verify backups on another tape drive, or at least verify them - I had one tape drive that would seem to write just fine, and never report any errors. But the tapes wouldn't read back! A backup you can't read is, well, not backed up. Then again, we don't use DLT as an archive - just for daily backups. I have no idea how readable this DLTTape IV cartridge will be in 20 years. Burning DVD or CD's is nice and "archival" since you can't overwrite them, but beware that some cheap media isn't really good for more than a few years. Of course, we've had discussions about media, longevity and how critical it is to make backups many times before... So backup often, backup in different ways, verify backups and most importantly, actually backup! And if you need to be sure the data will be around for years to come, you need to keep it live - keep it on newer media, newer hard drives, whatever. If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... -Ian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 12:02:45 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:02:45 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> References: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4640AD35.2070104@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > I always figure there's a lot less to go wrong in a DLT cartridge > than there > > is with a hard disk > > The flaw in this argument is the time it takes to make another copy, > which needs to be done at some point to migrate to newer media. I'm not sure that it matters though, not while the hardware to read whatever media is being used still survives in healthy numbers. With any type of media there will come a point where for all intents and purposes it's obsolete, but migration should happen before that point's reached. DLT is pretty quick in my experience for the sorts of data sizes typically found on home machines. Different matter entirely (generally) in the corporate world, of course. > You will only know the DLT has failed when you try to read it again. Surely that's true of any backup media? (Well, the exception being backup media where you *know* it's broken just by looking at it!). From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 8 12:14:55 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:14:55 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70705080825r7b04b626y84bcd46ac85338c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> <2f806cd70705080825r7b04b626y84bcd46ac85338c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4640B00F.2060002@philpem.me.uk> Rob wrote: > I can donate some ex-BBC micro 40T and 80T drives if you need... (I'm > near Manchester..) I'm near Leeds (the one in Yorkshire, not the one in Kent). I've got an 80T drive already - all I really need is a 40T to complete the set. And that's just because 40T drives have a larger head - the whole "40T reads 40T discs better than an 80T unless they've been formatted/written in an 80T" thing. I've just done Dave Dunfield's 300RPM hack on my YE-Data drive (after some multimeter probing) and it seems to be working. I still need to fit it into a PC and see if it can read a BBC floppy, but you can certainly hear the difference in speed (and see it in the index pulse delay on a scope). > Will your design cope with the weird disc machinations of the Sirius 1 > discs? (aka Victor 9000 I believe, in the States) They were variable > speed, and I think variable numbers of sectors per track,. The > techref is on bitsavers anyway; pp85+ It should do. You'd just need to change the read clock rate as the data rate slowed down, assuming you were using a standard 300 or 360RPM drive. The same goes for the oddball Amiga (IIRC) drives that change speed depending on head location - you just need to slow down the read clock so that the slower tracks don't overflow the track timing counter. I'm going to try and add some logic that clips the timing counter at 0x7F if it tries to overflow - that should make it a little easier to find out if the read rate was too slow. Equally, lots of low values mean you've probably got the read rate too high. AIUI, the Catweasel doesn't do this.. :) > I've not actually got one, but I have some discs for one somewhere.. I'd want to get a couple of 'blank' discs formatted on the machine to play with before reading out the contents of the discs. That way the algorithms and timing can be perfected without risking ruining irreplaceable media (the 'binder absorbing moisture and losing grip' issue and so forth). -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 12:16:28 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 10:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Although I see lots of 8mm video tapes used for > data, and relatively few > genuine 8mm data tapes, whereas I see lots of DDS > data tapes and very > few audio DAT tapes. In fact, I seem to remember > that you can't use DAT > for data, (or was it can't use DDS for audio?) > straight off. I stand to > be corrected on that, of course :-) Yeah, I can't ever remember seeing 4mm audio DAT tapes used for data either. I was under the impression that they would stretch or something. It could also be that since the audio DAT format didn't really take off at all in the consumer field, that the data tapes would have been more available. I routinely use video 8mm tape with the Exabyte 8200 drives, because I can't find the 8mm data tapes locally - but I can buy video cartridges at the grocery store (and they're frequently on sale!). I've never had a problem with video tape in those drives. -Ian From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 8 12:32:30 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:32:30 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mr Ian Primus" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 1:11 PM Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges > > DLT is great, I use it a lot, and we also use it at > work. Very reliable from what I've seen, only time you > run into issues is with the drive itself, and really, > really worn out tapes. If possible, verify backups on > another tape drive, or at least verify them - I had > one tape drive that would seem to write just fine, and > never report any errors. But the tapes wouldn't read > back! A backup you can't read is, well, not backed up. > > Then again, we don't use DLT as an archive - just for > daily backups. I have no idea how readable this > DLTTape IV cartridge will be in 20 years. > > Burning DVD or CD's is nice and "archival" since you > can't overwrite them, but beware that some cheap media > isn't really good for more than a few years. Of > course, we've had discussions about media, longevity > and how critical it is to make backups many times > before... So backup often, backup in different ways, > verify backups and most importantly, actually backup! > And if you need to be sure the data will be around for > years to come, you need to keep it live - keep it on > newer media, newer hard drives, whatever. > > If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it > into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and > knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read > though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 > baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... > > -Ian MO media seems to be made to last a long time, plus it has a hard outer case to protect it (unlike DVD or CD recordable). Honestly how much of the GBs of files on your hard drive is user generated and irreplaceable and how much is just OS/App bloat along with internet downloads? TZ From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 12:39:48 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:39:48 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> References: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200705081339.48701.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 12:44, Al Kossow wrote: > > I always figure there's a lot less to go wrong in a DLT cartridge > > than there is with a hard disk > > The flaw in this argument is the time it takes to make another copy, > which needs to be done at some point to migrate to newer media. > > You will only know the DLT has failed when you try to read it again. > > If you care about the data, it should be kept in a form that is > easily replicated and verified, and you should assume that any single > copy of that data WILL become corrupted or unreadable over time. I mostly agree here... but at some level of data storage, tape is much more economical to use than hard disk. Up until this year (that is to say, through December 31 or so of last year ;) we have used DLT media for our archival storage system here at work, starting in about '96. Keeping two copies of the data is really essential, but even with the 50+TB of content that we had in the system when we started migrating to our new one (from DLT-IV in a DLT7000 drive to LTO2 tape), we had very little data ever lost, and I don't think any data that got lost could be credited to the tapes - mostly just due to bugs, power failures, etc with our HSM system. But again, we did have bad tapes on occasion (hint: avoid Imation tapes) but they were few enough in number that we never had a big enough problem to lose data on two tapes that had the same data. Still it wasn't too bad, IMO, as some of our tapes had over 1000 tape-mounts, with no problems at all. So, I guess my advice if you want to use DLT tape (or newer, LTO stuff which is starting to trickle down) is to make sure the tapes are in a good, climate controlled environment, make sure you have 2 copies of the data, make sure you clean and test the drives regularly, occasionally read the tapes to make sure your data is still there, so that you can regenerate a 2nd good copy before you have 2 bad copies. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Tue May 8 12:45:12 2007 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 10:45:12 -0700 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet Message-ID: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Hi, I am looking for a datasheet for the N8202N or equivalent. It would have been described in "Digital 8000 series TTL/MSl". It was apparently manufactured by Signetics and equivalents seem to have been available from Motorola and others. I have the pinout for the device. What I'm looking for is whether the clock is edge or level sensitive, which edge or level, and maybe something about setup and hold times, etc. (This is to help design replacements for some hard-to-find old DEC gear.) Thanks! Vince From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 8 12:48:27 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 13:48:27 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it > into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and > knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read > though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 > baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 12:48:48 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:48:48 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640AD35.2070104@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> <4640AD35.2070104@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > DLT is pretty quick in my experience for the sorts of data sizes typically > found on home machines. Different matter entirely (generally) in the corporate > world, of course. Until we upgraded to Ultrium tapes (super-super DLT at about 200GB/cart for the ones we use), we used to blow two copies of our telescope data to SDLT on a continuous basis... the primary data from the main part of the telescope went on both tapes, and raw waveform data went on only one tape. We filled about 175 tapes per year at about 140GB (before compression) per tape (~ 75-80GB/day) for an aggregate total above 24TB per year (rough estimates from memory). That's for the old telescope. The new one isn't finished yet, but is much larger. If you recall the old saw about a station wagon full of magtapes (or a 747 full of CDs), I am able to talk about the bandwidth of an LC-130 with a load of SDLTs from personal experience. ;-) -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 12:54:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:54:44 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Yeah, I can't ever remember seeing 4mm audio DAT tapes > used for data either. I was under the impression that > they would stretch or something. It could also be that > since the audio DAT format didn't really take off at > all in the consumer field, that the data tapes would > have been more available. I thought the dots on the bottom of the carts would cause audio tapes to be kicked out of data drives. Is that not so? I _think_ you could use data tapes in an audio DAT recorder/player, but I only ever saw one of those, so I can't say for certain. The DAT tapes I have (going back to 60meter DDS-1) all have this media recognition system that the drives are supposed to respect, or so I thought. Did I think wrong? Now that I have a tarabyte at home (1 trillion bytes in box small enough to palm), I should set up an external SCSI box and check my backup tapes from a few years back. I have CD backups from that era as well (and copies of copies of it all), so I'm not worried about one (?!?) bad tape ruining my day, but I should take advantage of the equipment on hand to see what reads and migrate the contents to newer media. -ethan -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:01:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 14:01:13 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Teo Zenios wrote: > Honestly how much of the GBs of files on your hard drive is user generated > and irreplaceable and how much is just OS/App bloat along with internet > downloads? Part of my gigs and gigs is digital photographs going back to 1996 of places and buildings in Antarctica that aren't there any more. I would consider that irreplaceable. I do have multiple copies on multiple (types of) media. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:04:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 14:04:37 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) And a lot of chad. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 8 12:59:02 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200705081808.OAA04348@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... > USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. > SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace > cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace > terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining > in various combinations, give up, go home. I too have almost exactly the opposite experience. SCSI seems ridiculously robust - I've discovered that SCSI buses, working for months, were triple-terminated, and I even saw one mostly work once that was quadruple-terminated. But USB has been flaky and an incompatibility nightmare. (The latter being exactly what hardware makers want, of course, because it sells *new* hardware.) And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more backwards-compatible. USB is quite recent. SCSI goes back to the '80s - and, what's more, it's *compatible* all the way back to the '80s: I can take a disk that was sold new with a Sun-2 and put it on my Athlon and have it Just Work, and, conversely, I can take a brand new off-the-shelf SCSI disk and put it on my Sun-2 and have it Just Work (well, except that I don't think I *have* a Sun-2). (Sure, it'll stop down performance, but it'll work.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue May 8 13:09:45 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 20:09:45 +0200 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F994@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> The 8200/01/02/03 are buffer registers/arrays of 10 clocked "D" flipflops. I have a Signetics integrated circuits 1978 data handbook, which has them described. I will scan tomorrow (but there might be problems with the scanner). For now, here is some data from the handbook. The 8200/01/02/03 MSI Buffer Registers are arrays of ten clocked "D" flipflops especially suited for parallel-in parallel-out register applications. They are also suitable for general purpose applications as parallel-in serial-out, serial-in parallel-out registers. The flipflops are arranged as dual 5 arrays (8200 and 8201) and single 10 arrays with reset (8202 and 8203). The true output of each bit is made available to the user. The 8200 and 8201 feature true "D" inputs. The logic state presented at these "D" inputs will appear at the Q outputs after a negative transistion of the clock. The 8203 and 8204 feature complementing "D" inputs ("D\"). The logic state presented at these "D\" inputs will invert and appear at the Q outputs after a negative going transisition of the clock. This complementing input feature ("D\") permits the use of standard AND-OR-INVERT gates to achieve the AND-OR function without additional gate delays. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Vincent Slyngstad Verzonden: di 08-05-2007 19:45 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Wanted: N8202N datasheet Hi, I am looking for a datasheet for the N8202N or equivalent. It would have been described in "Digital 8000 series TTL/MSl". It was apparently manufactured by Signetics and equivalents seem to have been available from Motorola and others. I have the pinout for the device. What I'm looking for is whether the clock is edge or level sensitive, which edge or level, and maybe something about setup and hold times, etc. (This is to help design replacements for some hard-to-find old DEC gear.) Thanks! Vince This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 13:10:16 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 11:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <883197.78967.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I thought the dots on the bottom of the carts would > cause audio tapes > to be kicked out of data drives. Is that not so? I > _think_ you could > use data tapes in an audio DAT recorder/player, but > I only ever saw > one of those, so I can't say for certain. I don't have any audio DAT tapes, so I can't say for certain, but I do have an audio DAT deck - it works just fine with the computer data tapes. Never tried it the other way around. I think the dots are just to differentiate between DDS1, 2 and 3. I remember once I tried to modify a DDS2 cart to become a DDS3, to see what would happen. It didn't work. (gee, surprise, surprise)... -Ian From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 8 13:09:25 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 14:09:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <015e01c7916b$b9f83c50$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> <015e01c7916b$b9f83c50$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200705081814.OAA04413@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] - a demonstrable pattern of non-enforcement of license does in > fact weaken the ability to enforce it. That is why often a company > will act to notify, issue a cease & desist, etc. an infringing entity > about an infraction of license that they actually in fact don't > really care about This is also part of the reason why it's often worth asking, because if they don't care about your case they may well give you a license for "nothing" - doing so does not produce a weakening of their ability to slap down infringement they *do* care about. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:23:17 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 14:23:17 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Honestly how much of the GBs of files on your hard drive is user >> generated and irreplaceable and how much is just OS/App bloat along >> with internet downloads? > > Part of my gigs and gigs is digital photographs going back to 1996 of > places and buildings in Antarctica that aren't there any more. I > would consider that irreplaceable. I do have multiple copies on > multiple (types of) media. Indeed, I have a 2TB array here which is about 2/3 full, and contains no application, game or OS binary code at all. There's some source code in there and a couple of FTP mirrors, but most of it is data of various kinds. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:27:28 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 14:27:28 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4640C110.8080906@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/8/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) > > And a lot of chad. I'd like to see a pile of chad that big. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 13:21:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 13:21:46 -0500 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4640BFBA.1060600@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it >> into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and >> knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read >> though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 >> baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... > > 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) Bah... change the shapes of the holes to represent different patterns... you could easily quadruple storage capacity! :-) From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:36:29 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:36:29 +0100 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet In-Reply-To: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Hi, > > I am looking for a datasheet for the N8202N or equivalent. > It would have been described in "Digital 8000 series TTL/MSl". > It was apparently manufactured by Signetics and equivalents > seem to have been available from Motorola and others. > > I have the pinout for the device. What I'm looking for is > whether the clock is edge or level sensitive, which edge or > level, and maybe something about setup and hold times, etc. > > (This is to help design replacements for some hard-to-find > old DEC gear.) > > Thanks! > > Vince > > quick and dirty pics of the Signetics databook www.archivist.info/computers/8202.html Dave Caroline From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 13:47:06 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 11:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705081808.OAA04348@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> But USB has been > flaky and an > incompatibility nightmare. (The latter being > exactly what hardware > makers want, of course, because it sells *new* > hardware.) Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, and it's not really much of a Bus either. I tried using external USB 2.0 hard drives on a Macintosh once, but every time I touched grounded metal (the case, power strip, keyboard frame) in the vicinity, all the USB drives unmounted. > And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more > backwards-compatible. Yes, and more reliable too. I once used one of those ESDI->SCSI interface boards to connect an ESDI hard drive to my Macintosh G4. It worked. And ever used a really recent PC clone? They have done away with almost all I/O. No RS232C, no parallel, no keyboard or mouse ports, it's all USB. I had to set one up as a server, and wasted a half a day trying to get a modem working for the fax dial-in. We couldn't use the nice external modem because it was RS232C. I tried a USB->RS232 converter but could never get the firmware to load properly under Linux. The crappy internal WinModem wouldn't work under Linux. The machine has no ISA slots, so no nice hardware internal modem. Can't find a hardware PCI modem. One of the guys bought some commercial Linux WinModem driver, and it almost worked, but was really unreliable. We kept the old fax server. A Pentium 100. -Ian From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue May 8 12:45:45 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:45:45 +0100 Subject: SC/MP LCDS In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 May 2007 18:06:17 +1000." Message-ID: <200705081745.SAA29190@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, David Kane said: > Wow I never saw an SC/MP message on this list before, well maybe one. I > loved the SC/MP from way back when Electronics Australia magazine ran the > Mini-SCMP construction articles (which I have collected). > > I always wanted to build one. I saw one built by a student at my high > school, he was showing it off at the school fate. I still have my Science of Cambridge (Sinclair) Mk14 and it still works, just plugged it in to see. I've been looking to see if I can find the remains of my previous SC/MP system which used a board and eprom from a local (Merseyside) firm - Kemitron ringa a bell for the name. Found some SC/MP programming docs which is a start. I suppose I should attempt to finish my emulator, written in Forth... Nice to see the SC/MP getting a mention. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 14:23:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:23:35 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk>, <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46406BC7.13057.32292308@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 17:50, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Although I see lots of 8mm video tapes used for data, and relatively few > genuine 8mm data tapes, whereas I see lots of DDS data tapes and very > few audio DAT tapes. In fact, I seem to remember that you can't use DAT > for data, (or was it can't use DDS for audio?) straight off. I stand to > be corrected on that, of course :-) I should have put Pereos 2.5 mm media after QIC. I'll wager that audio cassette is more reliable. I think there's an explanation for that. DDS tapes typically have an "ID Burst" recorded right at BOT, which is supposed to tell the drive what kind of tape it is. Some older 4mm drives could get by without the burst, but later ones required it (i.e. wouldn't load the tape). Stick a new DDS tape into your DAT drive and you can usually hear the (caution: very loud) burst--at least I can on my Sony DAT. The other reason is that RIAA fought DAT in the USA tooth and nail to prevent importation of DAT equipment with the result that DAT was fairly rare in the USA. It was much easier to find DDS media than DAT media. I've had decent experience with MO media, but miserable experience with the equipment. In particular, the 4.3G Pinnacle Apex drives would quit functioning for no apparent reason. At one point, Pinnacle had a swapout policy that they would give you a refurb drive in exchange for your bad drive and $300. I remember calling them to arrange the swap and being told that they had an 8 week backlog of bad drives. I borrowed a drive and copied my MO carts to hard disk and recycled the Apex drive. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 8 14:24:11 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 12:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <46406378.9060507@dunnington.plus.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> <46406378.9060507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20070508122133.I26555@shell.lmi.net> > Quick question - does the write protect sensor on floppy drives also > lock out the write circuitry, or does the drive depend on the controller > not trying to do silly things like writing to protected floppies? The write protect circuit does, indeed, block writing. However, there can be exceptions in some of the weirder systems. For example, the Apple ][ relies on the controller, not the drive. From rivie at ridgenet.net Tue May 8 14:24:21 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 12:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2007, C H Dickman wrote: > > Roger Ivie wrote: >> >> Folks have been talking about formatting on an RQDX1. The RQDX1 uses a >> different format than that used by the RQDX2 and the VS2000. You can't >> format a disk on an RQDX1 and use it in an RQDX2. >> > Did you mean RQDX3 (instead of RQDX2)? Indeed, I did. I realized that just after punching SEND. The RQDX2 is pretty similar to the RQDX1. The RQDX3 and VS2000 formats are compatible. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 14:26:48 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 16:26:48 -0300 Subject: 8mm data cartridges References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com><804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02de01c791a7$12d51970$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Now that I have a tarabyte at home (1 trillion bytes in box small > enough to palm), I should set up an external SCSI box and check my > backup tapes from a few years back. I have CD backups from that era > as well (and copies of copies of it all), so I'm not worried about one > (?!?) bad tape ruining my day, but I should take advantage of the > equipment on hand to see what reads and migrate the contents to newer > media. This is something that worries me a lot! I have lots and lots of irreplaceable content and don't want to see it vanish. What can I TRUST today for some two terabytes of data? Please, cheap options, I still cannot afford a DLT :o) From mtapley at swri.edu Tue May 8 13:01:51 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:01:51 -0500 Subject: FPGA CPU's (was: Re: wonderful assembly language book) In-Reply-To: <200705061702.l46H1e4D078554@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705061702.l46H1e4D078554@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:02 -0500 5/6/07, Pat wrote: > > Au contraire. "Architecture" these days is whatever you want it to be > > cooked into an FPGA. .... FPGA designs are > > *very* popular for custom architectures these days. > >Sure, but no one (in their right mind) builds a general purpose CPU out >of them. Well, unless it's a research or "toy" project, a prototype >design, or something very unusual and high end[1], but even in that case >it's still not making a general purpose CPU out of it. Although I tend to agree with Pat about the "right mind" part of it, we routinely do this for spacecraft avionics. Both simple processors, like 8085, and more complex ones like SPARC architecture are implemented in FPGAs. The speed is generally far below what a "real" CPU would do, but because we can implement more functions than just the CPU into a single chip, and because we can often get an FPGA that has been tested to better radiation exposure levels than the corresponding (faster, smaller semiconductor feature) "real" CPU, it still turns out to be the best option in many cases. I really mourn the lack of availability of rad-hard CPU's anymore. Harris RTX2010 (a forth-oriented 8/16 bit) and the RAD6000 (a PowerPC-like unit) were both workhorses in the past. The FPGA's we use routinely come up with chip-level problems of one form or another (bad programming algorithms, power-up sequencing issues, etc.) that cause angst, board reworks, or other serious cost and schedule problems. That never used to happen with "real" CPUs. >I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone >can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is >general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. :-) admittedly, I can't really claim our avionics boxes are "widely available", though we're always looking for new customers.... -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 8 14:48:11 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 15:48:11 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:23 PM Subject: Re: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Honestly how much of the GBs of files on your hard drive is user > >> generated and irreplaceable and how much is just OS/App bloat along > >> with internet downloads? > > > > Part of my gigs and gigs is digital photographs going back to 1996 of > > places and buildings in Antarctica that aren't there any more. I > > would consider that irreplaceable. I do have multiple copies on > > multiple (types of) media. > > Indeed, I have a 2TB array here which is about 2/3 full, and contains no > application, game or OS binary code at all. There's some source code in > there and a couple of FTP mirrors, but most of it is data of various kinds. > > Peace... Sridhar Well I would expect people here to have "data", but I would think most people just have stuff they can download or rip again (music and movies). I have a few GB of pictures taken with a digital camera that get backed up a few ways (mirrored to another machine, MO, and DAT). But if you look at the GBs of files on my main machine its mostly OS, Apps, drivers, and Games that take up the space, not user created data. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 15:01:22 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:01:22 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4640D712.6030207@dunnington.plus.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I thought the dots on the bottom of the carts would cause audio tapes > to be kicked out of data drives. Is that not so? I _think_ you could > use data tapes in an audio DAT recorder/player, but I only ever saw > one of those, so I can't say for certain. Ah, that rings a bell. I remember someone bringing us a DAT (not DDS) tape and it not being accepted. > The DAT tapes I have (going back to 60meter DDS-1) all have this media > recognition system that the drives are supposed to respect, or so I > thought. Did I think wrong? No, that sounds right. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 15:19:14 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:19:14 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > But USB has been >> flaky and an >> incompatibility nightmare. (The latter being >> exactly what hardware >> makers want, of course, because it sells *new* >> hardware.) > > Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal > pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, > and it's not really much of a Bus either. Seconded. I have here several USB memory sticks which work on PCs but not on a Mac, and as if that's not bad enough, several others of the same make and same model number which work on both. Also a couple of USB-to-serial-port adaptors which work on some laptops but not others. When did you last see wide-ranging USB support on a Unix box (Linux doesn't count)? >> And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more >> backwards-compatible. > > Yes, and more reliable too. Also seconded. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From robert at irrelevant.com Tue May 8 15:23:17 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:23:17 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <883197.78967.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <883197.78967.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705081323n5c0fe1e1uaad7f77ca13b1ab1@mail.gmail.com> On 08/05/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > I don't have any audio DAT tapes, so I can't say for > certain, but I do have an audio DAT deck - it works > just fine with the computer data tapes. Never tried it > the other way around. I think the dots are just to > differentiate between DDS1, 2 and 3. I remember once I > tried to modify a DDS2 cart to become a DDS3, to see > what would happen. It didn't work. (gee, surprise, > surprise)... There is definitely a media recogition system on 4mm carts that stops you using them in the wrong sorts of drive; and indicates capacity etc. Stick a 120M cart in a drive that can't cope and it just spits it out again.. I've never seen an audio cart used in a data drive, and we had a lot of customers using them.. (I was also very disappointed with their general reliability.) From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 15:29:19 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 16:29:19 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <02de01c791a7$12d51970$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> <02de01c791a7$12d51970$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 15:26, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Now that I have a tarabyte at home (1 trillion bytes in box small > > enough to palm), I should set up an external SCSI box and check my > > backup tapes from a few years back. I have CD backups from that > > era as well (and copies of copies of it all), so I'm not worried > > about one (?!?) bad tape ruining my day, but I should take > > advantage of the equipment on hand to see what reads and migrate > > the contents to newer media. > > This is something that worries me a lot! I have lots and lots of > irreplaceable content and don't want to see it vanish. What can I > TRUST today for some two terabytes of data? Please, cheap options, I > still cannot afford a DLT :o) Huh? The bottom has pretty much dropped out of the DLT market. 264-slot DLT libraries *don't* sell on ebay for $10. (DEC TL896 aka ATL ACS-2640's) Drives aren't that expensive either, and LTO is starting to come down a lot in price. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 8 15:37:36 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 13:37:36 -0700 Subject: DDS vs Audio DAT Message-ID: <4640DF90.7090404@bitsavers.org> > I've never seen an audio cart used in a data drive, > and we had a lot of customers using them.. Audio DATs don't have the media recognition burst, and will be rejected by DDS drives. DDS tapes used as audio DAT tapes overwrite the DDS data, and are unusable as data tapes after doing that. Early audio DAT recorders (TEAC DA-30) will accept 90M data tapes, later TEAC drives will reject them. At one point we had about 6 DA-30's at KFJC, which have all developed transport problems after using a lot of 90M data tapes in them. We're slowly migrating 100's of DATs to optical or IDE disc media because of the problems preserving data recorded to DAT. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 15:40:49 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:40:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705081808.OAA04348@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <212579.87582.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> der Mouse wrote: >> USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... > USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. > SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace > cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace > terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining > in various combinations, give up, go home. I personally prefer USB on modern stuff... saves me fiddling around with crappy laptops and Microsoft rubbish... just plug in and use. I have 3 items that use USB... my mouse, my webcam and a USB 2.0 flash disk (2GB). I like the hands on of the old stuff though... I can learn and actually feel proud when things work the way *I* want them to :) I can also tell when things go wrong... not so with modern stuff where you need to bring up the troubleshooting docs on the laptop. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue May 8 15:48:31 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 16:48:31 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46406BC7.13057.32292308@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070508164150.0495fdd0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >I've had decent experience with MO media, but miserable experience >with the equipment. I've had both with both... ;-) Way back when ePay was young, I purchased a MaxOptix Tahiti-1 drive - it took standard 300Meg/side (flippy) 512byte sector 5.25" media, but it also took 500Meg/side flippy ultra-special Maxstor Tahiti disks... so the Tahiti-1 drive got it's name from the 1G (total) special disks it could use. I received 3 of the 300Meg/side media, and one of the Tahiti-1 disks in the deal. [[ I used it for backup media on a mailserver I'd built. ]] Still have the drive (it's a brick!) and last I checked it still worked... but I could *never* get it to reliably read/write/format the Tahiti-1 disk without data loss - but the standard 300Meg/side media was "bulletproof" and never had an issue. Never did figure out if it was the drive or the media - the Tahiti-1 media was mongo expensive, so I gave up on it. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 16:00:06 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 16:00:06 -0500 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4640E4D6.9000106@yahoo.co.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > Well I would expect people here to have "data", but I would think most > people just have stuff they can download or rip again (music and movies). The 'net is pretty transient, though. I've been bitten by things disappearing in the past where I hadn't archived them locally because I'd made the assumption that "they'd always be there". Worse still, the bigger the data, the less likely it is to stay around. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 8 16:07:35 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 22:07:35 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal > pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, > and it's not really much of a Bus either. I tried > using external USB 2.0 hard drives on a Macintosh > once, but every time I touched grounded metal (the > case, power strip, keyboard frame) in the vicinity, > all the USB drives unmounted. Which suggests your 'grounded metal' may not be grounded so well. Most of the problems I've had were with USB devices plugged into the front USB ports - because of the length (and poor quality) of the cable inside the machine, they'd work at 12Mbit for a flashdrive, but as soon as you go up to 480Mbit (especially with something like a scanner), the data just gets mangled. Minolta scanners are really fussy about this sort of signal degradation, but most other devices are more tolerant... 99% of the problems I've had with USB could be traced back to bad grounding, bad cable or a combination of the two. > And ever used a really recent PC clone? They have done > away with almost all I/O. No RS232C, no parallel, no > keyboard or mouse ports, it's all USB. So now you know why I'm fiercely protective of my laptop (a Toshiba Satellite Pro 4600) - it's a 1GHz Mobile Pentium III with Cardbus, RS232, parallel, WiFi and USB - only USB1.1, but it's better than the modern 2GHz ubermachines that only have USB and VGA (and even that's a push with most of them - some only have DVI-out). The main reason I'm using USB is speed - the fastest RS232 will work (with standard parts) is 115200bps. That gives a maximum theoretical transfer rate of 11.25KBytes/sec. 128KB of RAM over 11.25KB is around 11.4 seconds per track. Multiply that by 80 tracks, and you get 910.2 seconds - 15 minutes and 10 seconds. That's not counting the second or so for each track to actually read... Would you wait more than 15 minutes for a disc to image? If you assume that USB can transfer 1MByte per second (in USB2 High Speed mode, i.e. 12Mbit/sec), then you can transfer 128Kbytes in 125 milliseconds. Ten seconds data transfer time on top of the 80 seconds for data transfer - roughly a minute and a half best case. You're probably looking at a maximum of two minutes worst case - an eighth of the time it'd take to do the same thing over RS232. If there were easily-available (and cheap) SCSI slave controllers, and I had a SCSI host adapter, I might consider using SCSI. Fact is though, it's much easier just to throw in a USB PIC and program it to control the CPLD. But even so, SCSI is total overkill anyway - it's designed for connecting fast computers to really fast hard drives, and it does really well at that. For scanners and other I/O peripherals I wouldn't even consider it. > We kept the old fax server. A Pentium 100. Sometimes the old kit works far better than the new stuff. My current server is a Linksys NSLU2, coupled to a pair of Seagate 400GB USB drives (in RAID1 mode) and a Netgear DG834GT router. The aforementioned NSLU2 runs Debian Linux, and hasn't had a reboot in more than two weeks. The reboot before that was because I did something monumentally stupid when I replaced the old router with the DG834GT. Admittedly it's less than a year old, but it gets the job done quite nicely, and uses less power than the K6 box it replaced. Now I just need to hack together a DC UPS for it to get rid of the wall-warts and allow it to survive a brownout/blackout until the mains sorts itself out. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 16:12:33 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 17:12:33 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200705081712.33484.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 16:19, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal > > pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, > > and it's not really much of a Bus either. > > Seconded. I have here several USB memory sticks which work on PCs > but not on a Mac, and as if that's not bad enough, several others of > the same make and same model number which work on both. Also a > couple of USB-to-serial-port adaptors which work on some laptops but > not others. > > When did you last see wide-ranging USB support on a Unix box (Linux > doesn't count)? I'm starting to wonder if the reason I've NEVER had ANY problem with USB devices is because I've only used them on Linux machines (short of the USB keyboard/mouse that Sun and Apple ship with their machines). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 16:10:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 16:10:19 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4640E73B.8030207@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more >>> backwards-compatible. >> >> Yes, and more reliable too. > > Also seconded. I don't even need to comment... :-) In a traditional CPU-driven environment the logical thing to do would perhaps have been to make the CPU and floppy interface a separate board to the one containing the interface, with the CPU bus coupling them together. That way the core stays the same but the interface can change (USB, SCSI, Ethernet etc.) relatively easily (plug in the right board, drop in the right firmware ROM). I'm not sure if that maps to whatever IC Phil's using though. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 8 04:25:04 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 03:25:04 -0600 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640BFBA.1060600@yahoo.co.uk> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> <4640BFBA.1060600@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <464041F0.7030305@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>> If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it >>> into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and >>> knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read >>> though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 >>> baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... >> >> 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) > > Bah... change the shapes of the holes to represent different patterns... > you could easily quadruple storage capacity! :-) > Still I think DNA tops serial storage capacity. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue May 8 16:44:16 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 22:44:16 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1178660656.21387.16.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 05:32 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm not sure what my chances are of finding a drive to read them are though > (and worse still, such a drive might not be SCSI and so require a proprietary > interface card and drivers). The packrat in me wants to try reading them > rather than just tossing them out though :-) I've got an Exabyte 8200 here - you could borrow it or send/bring the tapes here (S Northants) if you'd like. I haven't used it for a while but it's a fairly rugged piece of kit. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 8 11:49:54 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:49:54 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4640AA32.6000603@bellatlantic.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/8/07, C H Dickman wrote: >> After reading the documentation (RT-11 V5.04 release notes), the Pro is >> capable of formatting the hard disk itself. RT11 even includes a program >> for that purpose. It can only format standard drive types of course. >> >> DW.SYS (Pro hard disk for RT-11) includes geometries for RD50, RD51, >> RD52C, RD52Q, RD52A, RD53 and RD31... >> The hardware only supports 8 heads (3 select >> lines). The driver does not support partitions so there is a maximum of >> 65535 blocks no matter how big the disk. > > So does anyone have any docs to check for later versions of RT-11 and > supported geometries? I'm specifically thinking of the RD32 (ST-251) > of which I have a couple on hand. > > the drive would support more than 65536 blocks, but I certainly > wouldn't be upset if RT-11 gave up at the 32MB mark. > > -ethan > Without the details to use larger drives (>32mb) use the LD driver to partition it. Personally ST251s while they work tend to run warm and fail often as a result. If you want the 251 to last cooling is important. I tend to use ST225s (20mb) as they are bullet proof and heat is not a significant problem for them. For the ultimate in bullet proof RD52 (quantum D540) it's the fastest, most realiable and runs cool plus it's just under 31MB. I try to use them exclusively as I've not had one fail (I have 10 of them). Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 8 15:16:51 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:16:51 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705081808.OAA04348@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> <200705081808.OAA04348@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1178655411.730.0.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 13:59 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > >> USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... > > USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. > > SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace > > cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace > > terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining > > in various combinations, give up, go home. > > I too have almost exactly the opposite experience. SCSI seems > ridiculously robust - I've discovered that SCSI buses, working for > months, were triple-terminated, and I even saw one mostly work once > that was quadruple-terminated. But USB has been flaky and an > incompatibility nightmare. (The latter being exactly what hardware > makers want, of course, because it sells *new* hardware.) I've never really had problems with USB, but maybe that's because I pick stuff I know will work. > And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more backwards-compatible. USB > is quite recent. SCSI goes back to the '80s - and, what's more, it's > *compatible* all the way back to the '80s: I can take a disk that was > sold new with a Sun-2 and put it on my Athlon and have it Just Work, > and, conversely, I can take a brand new off-the-shelf SCSI disk and put > it on my Sun-2 and have it Just Work (well, except that I don't think I > *have* a Sun-2). (Sure, it'll stop down performance, but it'll work.) You've obviously not had to deal with 80s and 90s audio equipment with SCSI disks... Gordon From robert at irrelevant.com Tue May 8 17:01:36 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:01:36 +0100 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640E4D6.9000106@yahoo.co.uk> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> <4640E4D6.9000106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705081501p6c07e616ka30747eac74a164@mail.gmail.com> On 08/05/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > The 'net is pretty transient, though. I've been bitten by things disappearing > in the past where I hadn't archived them locally because I'd made the > assumption that "they'd always be there". Worse still, the bigger the data, > the less likely it is to stay around. > Being a pack-rat by nature, I've always tried to keep things I download; my "downloads" folder, which is just software, drivers, etc, things you might consider transient, is currently up to 25.2GB... It's been handy when needing old versions of things.. I keep everything important on RAID 1 array, to avoid drive failure; just upgraded to 2x500GB drives in a little NAS box. Backups against, erm, "operator error" up to now were always been overnight incrementals to another HDD (when on the previous FreeBSD server) .. I still have to replicate that again now somehow on the new box - maybe a third drive on the USB port, once I break into the (linux) firmware.. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 17:01:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 15:01:59 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> I've lately grown partial to USB interfaces--but not rolled on my own, but rather using those little USB modules that plug into a 32- pin DIP socket and give you 8 bits of I/O with send and receive FIFOs. They're treated as generic communications devices, so there are no drivers to write on the host side. The big thing to be careful of is the transfer mode. Single-byte transfer on *any* generation of USB is very very slow. OTOH, burst/block transfers can be nice and speedy. Unlike SCSI, USB really *is* plug-and-play. Cables are easy to come by and you can leech power from the host if your device doesn't draw too much. All in all, not a bad solution. SCSI, while simple on the host end (almost any platform has some sort of "pass through capability", is more of a problem on the device end. I'm not aware of any generic "plug it into a DIP socket" SCSI module, which means that you've got that layer to work out and debug. FWIW, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 8 17:25:12 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 23:25:12 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640E73B.8030207@yahoo.co.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> <4640E73B.8030207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4640F8C8.2060707@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > In a traditional CPU-driven environment the logical thing to do would > perhaps have been to make the CPU and floppy interface a separate board > to the one containing the interface, with the CPU bus coupling them > together. That way the core stays the same but the interface can change > (USB, SCSI, Ethernet etc.) relatively easily (plug in the right board, > drop in the right firmware ROM). The reader IS separate from the microcontroller. The CPLD handles data read, data write, and write gating. Its interface to the microcontroller consists of three address lines, an 8-bit bidirectional data bus, a read line and a write line. It's basically the same as the Z80 bus - nIOR, nIOW, address and data. The PIC handles the interface between the USB bus and the CPLD (register programming, waiting for operations to complete, etc), the status LEDs, and the floppy drive control lines (MOTEN, DS0, DS1, TG42, etc). That microcontroller and its support circuitry can be torn out and replaced with close to anything that can be made to speak 8080-style bus protocols (which usually involves a small amount of glue and not much else). So if you don't like USB, you're quite welcome to use SCSI, RS232, CAN, LINBUS, SB-Bus, Firewire, or some form of wet string serial or parallel interface - swap out the microcontroller, write some software to drive it and have fun. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 17:32:09 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:32:09 -0300 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03c001c791c1$14f366c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it > into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and > knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read > though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 > baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... May I backup a TB of data on that? o:o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 17:35:16 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:35:16 -0300 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <03df01c791c1$d1d9dc60$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I am looking for a datasheet for the N8202N or equivalent. > It would have been described in "Digital 8000 series TTL/MSl". > It was apparently manufactured by Signetics and equivalents seem to have > been available from Motorola and others. http://www.datasheets.org.uk/specsheet.php?part=N8202N Datasheetarchive.com is sometimes your friend. In this case, only a specsheet, hope that helps From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 17:39:15 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:39:15 -0300 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03e001c791c1$d35028b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal > pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, > and it's not really much of a Bus either. I tried > using external USB 2.0 hard drives on a Macintosh > once, but every time I touched grounded metal (the > case, power strip, keyboard frame) in the vicinity, > all the USB drives unmounted. Never had problems with them. Also, never had problems with XP **since I changed my motherboard**, and it's been two years since. > And ever used a really recent PC clone? They have done > away with almost all I/O. No RS232C, no parallel, no > keyboard or mouse ports, it's all USB. I had to set > one up as a server, and wasted a half a day trying to > get a modem working for the fax dial-in. We couldn't > use the nice external modem because it was RS232C. I > tried a USB->RS232 converter but could never get the > firmware to load properly under Linux. The crappy > internal WinModem wouldn't work under Linux. The > machine has no ISA slots, so no nice hardware internal > modem. Can't find a hardware PCI modem. One of the > guys bought some commercial Linux WinModem driver, and > it almost worked, but was really unreliable. I have no troubles here using **in winXP** any kind of serial/parallel/keyboard/mouse/coverters thru USB. But I have a **real nice** two RS232/422 and 1 LPT board. Works flawlessly. Never had a trouble. I work with hardware development. Sometimes I need 3 RS232 ports. so what is the matter? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 8 17:46:20 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:46:20 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <4640ABA2.7040908@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> <4640ABA2.7040908@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On May 8, 2007, at 12:56 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > The RQDX3 definitely *is* different, and you have to reformat hard > drives for that (and AFAIR *that's* the same format as VS2000). Almost...different interleave, if I recall correctly, so it's better to do the format with the RQDX3. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rcini at optonline.net Tue May 8 17:52:16 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:52:16 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: Yes, odd indeed. It was like drinking from a fire hose last night. Anyway, the theory goes that the entire genome is coded in base triplets which encode only 64 proteins (6-bits). This "emulation" problem has been gnawing at him for over 10 years and he figures that now since the genome is fully mapped (although functions are still unknown), he can do some good. There has been lots of research, but any testing or whatever is still performed on live tissue. Why not emulate it? I didn't take down his entire curriculum vitae, but he's an EE that got into medicine (podiatry) and has a side interest in genetics (I guess). Hey, I read Scientific American, too, and I having a passing interest, but I'm not a man of medicine. Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? On 5/7/07 11:13 PM, "Sean Conner" wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini once stated: >> All: >> >> I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island >> who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a >> commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like >> drinking from a fire hose and I can't remember it all), basically he is >> looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that >> the "instructions" that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit >> instructions (or multiples thereof), so he's looking for someone with that >> kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I >> think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I'm not knowledgeable about any of >> the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that's >> a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. >> >> If anyone's willing to have a conversation with this person, please >> contact me off list and I'll pass on his contact information. > > What an odd request. I would think that you could emulate such a device > on just about any CPU and his best bet would be to find anyone that can code > assembly (or that can write an emulator for his six-bit CPU). > > I don't see how a six-bit hardware architecture (if such a beast actually > exists) will have a one-to-one mapping to a six-bit biological architecture. > Heck, I would expect an 8-bit CPU to be decent for this, as that gives you > two additional bits for debugging or tracking of some kind. > > Heck, it sounds kind of fun (assembly experience: 6809, 8088, some 80386, > 68000, MIPS, some VAX, can recognize 8080, Z80 and 6502). > > -spc (Even wrote my own Forth-like langauge ... ) > > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 17:55:15 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:55:15 -0300 Subject: 8mm data cartridges References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com><02de01c791a7$12d51970$f0fea8c0@alpha> <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Huh? The bottom has pretty much dropped out of the DLT market. > 264-slot DLT libraries *don't* sell on ebay for $10. (DEC TL896 aka ATL > ACS-2640's) Drives aren't that expensive either, and LTO is starting > to come down a lot in price. So try to find that (at that price, hehe) in Brazil... :o( From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 16:54:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:54:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <0JHO00JO8X6LTXI5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at May 7, 7 05:34:36 pm Message-ID: > >> About putting multiple drives on a single connector--some older > >> drives have removable pullups (usually 150 ohms); later ones have > >> lower-value builtin pullups. In any case, I'd limit the number of > > > >Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up > >resistors. > NO Lower. Some came with 130ohm and a few with 220/330 (130ohm) > terminations. No, I stand by what I said. Older drives have removeable (either electrically, by jumper links, or mechancially, as plug-in resistor packs) 150 Ohm , or thereabouts, termination resistors. I've never see a floppy drive witha 220/330 pack, but I can believe they exist. Later drives, designed for use on short cables (for example inside PC cabinets) have fixed-in-place (often soldered CMD resistors) pull-ups of around 1k. These are not strictly terminators (they are nowhere near the characteristic impedance of the ribbon cable), they are just pull-ups, but they seem to just about work. I was told that having to fit/remove the terminators confused most lusers.... ao the manufactuers went to this kludge. Mind you, when I added a couple of 3.5" drives externally to my XT, I did add a terminator at the end of the cable. Inspecting the drives I was using showed the soldered-in 1k Ohm resistors, so I used 220Ohm resistors in the terminator. The combined resistance of the 2 1k's and a 220Ohm in parallel was pretty close to 150 Ohms, since I had the drives and the terminator close together at one end of the cable, regarding it as a single lumped resistor was not too bad an aproximation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 17:11:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:11:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [midatlanticretro] WTD: Morrow Wunderbuss Thinker Toys In-Reply-To: <463FEC34.50902@comcast.net> from "Dan" at May 7, 7 11:19:16 pm Message-ID: > Caps always dry up and blowout--they don't last forever. That's why it's You are thinking of 2 different failure modes here. In an electorlytic capacitor, the dielectric (insulator) is a thin (oxide?) coating on the surface of the positive electrode. The electrolyte forms the engative electrode. If the electrolyte dries up, you get what's called a high ESR (effective series resistacnce). The capacitor appears as though it's got a high-ish value resisotr in sereis with it, and fails to, for example, smooth out ripple very well. The problem you're thinking of is when the dielectric film re-disolves into the electrolyte. The capacitor then appears as a short-circuit (2 electrodes connected by an electrolyte that's a good conductor). A high current can pass, the capacitor will overheat and blow itself apart. > good to have a Variac when powering equipment that hasn't been on for a > long time--a homemade current limiter helps too if no variac is available. I've never found a variac very useful. In fact for some SMPSUs, which appear as constant power loads and draw more current as the input voltage drops, a variac can actually do quite a bit of damage to the primary side compoents. You'rs much better off removing the capacitors and re-forming them on a bench supply with a suitable series resistor to limit the current. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 17:29:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:29:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <46404058.29064.317F781D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 8, 7 09:18:16 am Message-ID: > > One of the problems in engineering is knowing when to stop. DC37 > connectors are not uncommon, exist in IDC versions (easy attachment). > 50-pin D-subs are far less common. IDC headers aren't made for They're not particularly hard to get (I can't think of a company the sells DC37s but not DD50s, for example), but the IDC version of the DD50 is darn expensive (I speak from bitter experience here). > frequent use and are subject to pin breakage and stress on the PCB. There is, of course, the 50 pin microribbon connector. That's fairly easy to get in solder and IDC versions. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 17:48:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:48:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 8, 7 09:19:14 pm Message-ID: > > Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal > > pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, > > and it's not really much of a Bus either. > > Seconded. I have here several USB memory sticks which work on PCs but > not on a Mac, and as if that's not bad enough, several others of the > same make and same model number which work on both. Also a couple of > USB-to-serial-port adaptors which work on some laptops but not others. \begin{aol-mode} ME TOO! \end{aol-mode} I call it 'Useless Serial Botch'. It's not universal on the grounds I have over 200 computers here and not one of them has a USB interface or can have a USB interface (coversely, well over half have RS232 interfaces, many have or could have SCSi interfaces, etc) It is serial, agreed It is not a bus, at least not electrically. If it was, there'd be no need for hubs. Still, 1 out of 3 is not too bad for moder PC-speak, I guess... My other main boan is that the interface is nowhere near symmetical between the 2 devices. People used to moan about having to have RS232 null-modem cables, but at least for asynchronous operation they were just cables with the right wiring. Linking 2 USB 'slave' devices (say an HP50G calculator to a USB printer or a USB memory stick) is a lot more work, in fact it's probably impreactical. -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Tue May 8 18:08:31 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:08:31 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200705081908.31508.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 06:56, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- Jules Richardson > > wrote: > > How common were drives which could read these? I suspect the answer > > is "not very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the media? > > > > I've got a couple of such Sony cartridges here dating from 1991; one does > > call itself a data cartridge (QG-112M) - the other one is a PAL/SECAM > > 90-minute Video8 tape (P5-90MP). > > Actually, they're pretty common from what I have seen, but then again, I > work with lots of systems that use them. Those are Exabyte cartridges - you > need to find an Exabyte drive. Pretty common on eBay, expect to pay > around $15. The Exabyte drives are SCSI, and are pretty reliable. There are > several models, but since we're talking about the older tapes, and since one > of them is a re-used video tape, you're looking for an Exabyte 8200 or 8500, > I'd say. Those drives are 5 1/4" FH form factor SCSI drives. Hm, I have a couple of Exabyte drives, but no media to go with them. I got them along with a whole mess of other stuff that was part of an IBM disk array setup -- SSA? Something like that, I can't recall. I remember the guy I got them from telling me that the tapes would hold something like 20G each. Does this sound like those tapes? If I'd known that a video tape would work in there I might have tried one, though I don't have any 8mm tapes handy at the moment. > Both tapes and drives seem pretty reliable, and using video tape for data > DOES work, although it's not technically reccomended. Be patient with those > old Exabyte drives though, they take a long time to do anything (like open > the door, rewind...) and need to be properly connected and terminated to be > able to open the door, or disconnected totally (i.e., if you have a external > drive with a terminator plugged into the drive, but it's not connected to > the computer, it won't open) Hm. Maybe when I run across these next I'll have to note the model numbers in here. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 18:31:02 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 00:31:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70705081501p6c07e616ka30747eac74a164@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <496789.52572.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Rob wrote: On 08/05/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > The 'net is pretty transient, though. I've been bitten by things disappearing > in the past where I hadn't archived them locally because I'd made the > assumption that "they'd always be there". Worse still, the bigger the data, > the less likely it is to stay around. > Well my laptop had 10,000 files (mainly system related - Windows 2K) when I first got it. Now it has around 40,000 files largely thanks to Windows Update and storing all the old trash... err... updates. My stuff consists largely of YouTube video's (about 1 Gigs worth), pictures, images, software (which is about 500MB's worth). I back up to CD-R's monthly (usually 1 for Progran files and another for video's etc.). I do have most of my YouTube video's on the aforementioned USB flash stick (in another thread), but it doesn't work too well. For some strange reason it doesn't like certain colours... either that or some parts of it's flash memory are faulty :( I would backup to DVD-R's, but my drive can only read DVD's and not write to them :( I would be tempted to get a 400GB/800GB harddrive from PC world, but I suspect these new vertical harddrives won't last half as long as my CD-R's, as they will be more affected by gravity, won;t they? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rtellason at verizon.net Tue May 8 18:47:03 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:47:03 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200705081947.03297.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 13:48, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it > > into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and > > knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read > > though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 > > baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... > > 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) > > Peace... Sridhar Probably is... Last time I worked with punched tape was all the way back in 1978. I remember various-sized stacks of the stuff for different programs, etc. Given the typical fanfold stuff that was in common use, how much data would an inch or so stack of it hold? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rcini at optonline.net Tue May 8 19:32:54 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 20:32:54 -0400 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic Message-ID: All: I?ve done a bit of searching for this but can?t locate it. Does anyone have a scannable copy of the schematic for the Mockingboard sound board for the Apple II? Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 8 19:35:01 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's Message-ID: <200705090035.l490Z10U005000@onyx.spiritone.com> Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into something like this? http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port_tv&pscat2= I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would be to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 8 19:40:26 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 08, 2007 05:50:58 PM Message-ID: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> > > 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in > > specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: > > > > DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. > > Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use tapes > all that much. Personally I'd rate it a bit different. DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm I don't remember ever dealing with Travan, though I think I have a couple drives in the collection I've built at work. Zane From silent700 at gmail.com Tue May 8 19:41:59 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:41:59 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705081741p74e157b9iea952d86d5b6372c@mail.gmail.com> The IBM has a new owner - who I believe is on this list. I was sorry not to get it, but I'm used to finding my machines at hamfests, auctions and thrift stores. I couldn't compete in a bidding war for this one, cool as it was. If it's going where I think it's going, it will have lots of care and loads of other machines to keep it warm at night (and all day,) and will not be torn apart for gold or junked in a landfill, and that's what counts. -j From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 20:00:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:00:04 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 8, 7 09:19:14 pm, Message-ID: <4640BAA4.24036.335D2D08@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 23:48, Tony Duell wrote: > My other main boan is that the interface is nowhere near symmetical > between the 2 devices. People used to moan about having to have RS232 > null-modem cables, but at least for asynchronous operation they were just > cables with the right wiring. Linking 2 USB 'slave' devices (say an HP50G > calculator to a USB printer or a USB memory stick) is a lot more work, in > fact it's probably impreactical. Maybe for some devices, but there's a standard: http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/ Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Tue May 8 19:59:18 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 20:59:18 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200705082059.18358.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 15:48, Teo Zenios wrote: > Well I would expect people here to have "data", but I would think most > people just have stuff they can download or rip again (music and movies). That's still a nontrivial investment in time, though, and how do we recover that? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 8 19:59:07 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:59:07 -0500 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070508195605.0579e1d8@mail> At 05:52 PM 5/8/2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: >Yes, odd indeed. It was like drinking from a fire hose last night. Anyway, >the theory goes that the entire genome is coded in base triplets which >encode only 64 proteins (6-bits). >Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's >function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. >Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? Like others here, I don't see what six bits has to do with what he needs in an expert. Any old self-styled expert in computer architecture could have plenty to talk about with him. Maybe it's not six bits, maybe it's something else, so why should it matter? He has plenty to hypothesize and test without focusing on how computers did it with six bits. - John From spc at conman.org Tue May 8 20:16:49 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:16:49 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20070509011649.GA32171@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini once stated: > > Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's > function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. > > Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? I might be able to. I think there were a few others on this list that were interested as well. My email is spc at conman.org -spc (no explicit 6-or-9 bit architecture experience, but plenty with assembly ... ) From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 20:19:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:19:26 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 8, 7 09:19:14 pm, Message-ID: <4640BF2E.11117.336EE8EC@cclist.sydex.com> Well, if folks don't really care for USB, how about 802.3u? Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Tue May 8 20:34:06 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:34:06 -0400 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's In-Reply-To: <200705090035.l490Z10U005000@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <000a01c791da$22be66b0$6401a8c0@evan> I attached my Replica 1 into an LCD designed for a car headrest. :) -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:35 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into something like this? http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port _tv&pscat2= I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would be to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 8 20:37:18 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:37:18 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report Message-ID: <464125CE.2030304@bitsavers.org> > Well, if folks don't really care for USB Why don't we collectively just wait for the thing to work before picking it apart. It seems like a really useful device just the way it is. This discussion reminds me of what lead up to Imagedisk. A lot of talk, then someone just DOING it. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 20:41:59 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <645124.81547.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: we tended to > rank things this way: > > > > > > DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. > > > > Personally I'd rate it a bit different. > > DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm > > I don't remember ever dealing with Travan, though I > think I have a couple > drives in the collection I've built at work. Travan always seemed kinda like a refined QIC. I was never fond of QIC (especially those floppy interface ones!) I guess part of my issues with QIC is mostly because of the low quality drives that were so prevalent, and partly because of the tension rubber band... Personally, I would rate them in terms of reliability : 9 track open reel > DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC > audio cassette > ADAM DataPack > Exatron Stringy Floppy But, in keeping with modern-ish formats, i would agree with the orignial poster... Yeah, I know open reel tape has it's downfalls, but Cipher autoloader pickyness aside, I have had nothing but good experiances with it. Even DLT drives have given me more problems than I have had with nine tracks. But then again, maybe I'm just lucky :) -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 20:53:09 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <200705081908.31508.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <544157.10819.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > Hm, I have a couple of Exabyte drives, but no > media to go with them. I got > them along with a whole mess of other stuff that was > part of an IBM disk > array setup -- SSA? Something like that, I can't > recall. I remember the > guy I got them from telling me that the tapes would > hold something like 20G > each. Does this sound like those tapes? Not quite. Those drives are probably too new - the Exabyte Mammoth drives. Those can hold 20 gb on a tape, but require different tapes - AME instead of the MP tapes. AME stands for Advanced Metal Evaporated or something, as opposed to Metal Particle tapes like those used for video. The MP tapes won't work and will most likely clog up the heads on a Mammoth drive. The 8200, 8500, 8505 and 8700 drives take MP tapes, the 8900 and newer take AME. Somewhere along the line I think they changed them again though. > Hm. Maybe when I run across these next I'll have to > note the model numbers in > here. :-) Yes - there is a chance they're the older 8505/8505c drives that can do 7 gb or 14gb compressed using 160m MP tapes. The older drives (8200/8500) were full height. -Ian From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue May 8 20:54:59 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:54:59 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <464129F3.7050407@hawkmountain.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > > > MO media seems to be made to last a long time, plus it has a hard outer case > to protect it (unlike DVD or CD recordable). > > Honestly how much of the GBs of files on your hard drive is user generated > and irreplaceable and how much is just OS/App bloat along with internet > downloads? > > TZ > eh.. I don't have a wide range of experience with MO... but the one drive I have (650MB Sony, 300ish meg per side)... is that it doesn't last. For reasons unknown I've lost two discs worth of data. tried in multiple drives... spin, init, eject... won't come ready... data... gone ! MO drives... on a shelf. Maybe newer ones are better... maybe these got to warm ? don't know... Just my $0.02 on MO. -- Curt > > From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue May 8 20:57:43 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:57:43 -0400 Subject: OS/8 on-disk structure Message-ID: Does anyone know if there is a scheme for mapping out bad blocks on an OS/8 RX01 disk? I have an image of an RX01 disk that I'm trying to retrieve data from and it seems to have bad data in the middle of a file (4 blocks). Is there any chance these were bad blocks that were mapped elsewhere on the disk? Thanks, David From brad at heeltoe.com Tue May 8 20:59:09 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:59:09 -0400 Subject: FPGA CPU's (was: Re: wonderful assembly language book) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 May 2007 13:01:51 CDT." Message-ID: <200705090159.l491x9uo002444@mwave.heeltoe.com> Mark Tapley wrote: >> >>Sure, but no one (in their right mind) builds a general purpose CPU out >>of them. Well, unless it's a research or "toy" project, a prototype >>design, or something very unusual and high end[1], but even in that case >>it's still not making a general purpose CPU out of it. Some people might disagree, but they may fit into the "high end[1]", but not unusual. Unless you think that the machines that test the chips in your cell phone or flat tv are unusual :-) I'd be curious where you thing a NIOS cpu in an Altera fpga fits into this discussion. Certainly a general purpose cpu. And it fits in an fpga. -brad From sttaylor at charter.net Tue May 8 21:05:20 2007 From: sttaylor at charter.net (Steve Taylor) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:05:20 -0700 Subject: SC/MP LCDS Message-ID: <46412C60.9060408@charter.net> First time post, I to am surprised and pleased to see the Scamp get some post time. I hope you will archive all of the LCDS Kit Documentation you have. (or send it to someone that can archive it) There is VERY LITTLE documentation (and no Original Natl. Semi. Docs) on the net. It looks like more people then you thought will be watching Ebay for your SC/MP auctions. Steve From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 21:44:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:44:29 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640F8C8.2060707@philpem.me.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> <4640E73B.8030207@yahoo.co.uk> <4640F8C8.2060707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Philip Pemberton wrote: > So if you don't like USB, you're quite welcome to use SCSI, RS232, CAN, > LINBUS, SB-Bus, Firewire, or some form of wet string serial or parallel > interface Mmmmm.... wet string. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 8 21:48:21 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:48:21 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <645124.81547.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <645124.81547.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:41 PM -0700 5/8/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >9 track open reel > DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC >> audio cassette > ADAM DataPack > Exatron Stringy >Floppy > >But, in keeping with modern-ish formats, i would agree >with the orignial poster... Sorry, no one is going to get me to agree that 8mm is better than 4mm DAT. Though I would put it ahead of 4mm DDS1 DAT. >Yeah, I know open reel tape has it's downfalls, but >Cipher autoloader pickyness aside, I have had nothing >but good experiances with it. Even DLT drives have >given me more problems than I have had with nine >tracks. But then again, maybe I'm just lucky :) No, I think you're right. I've had some horrible experiences with 9-Track tapes on a Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframe, but other than all those drive issues, I've found 9-Tracks to be the best out there. Actually if we're going with this age range of tapes, from everything I've heard, I'm sure those that have used them would like to put DECtape (TU-56) ahead of 9-Track, of course DECtape-II's (TU-58's) would likely be around the bottom. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 8 21:51:22 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:51:22 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <60BCBB3C-8B90-4934-B390-A353CB62890E@neurotica.com> On May 8, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in >>> specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: >>> >>> DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. >> >> Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use >> tapes >> all that much. > > Personally I'd rate it a bit different. > > DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm My ordering would be: DLT > QIC > 4mm DAT > 8mm In my experience, both 4mm and 8mm are "write-only backups". I shy away from any helical-scan media at this point. DLT is rock- solid and I trust my most critical stuff to it every day. It's hard to believe that it grew out of the abominable TK-50! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue May 8 21:52:37 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:52:37 -0400 Subject: OS/8 on-disk structure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <802E8D82-7910-4348-A6A9-8F0E78E71F7C@xlisper.com> > Does anyone know if there is a scheme for mapping out bad blocks on > an OS/8 RX01 disk? I have an image of an RX01 disk that I'm trying > to retrieve data from and it seems to have bad data in the middle > of a file (4 blocks). Is there any chance these were bad blocks > that were mapped elsewhere on the disk? I seem to have answered my own question. My program for reading files from an OS/8 image is working I guess. The problem seems to be that there are four bad blocks in my image. I'm not sure if that means that the original disk had bad blocks or if my imaging program had problems. I guess I need to find a way to attempt reading the 8" floppy again. Unfortunately, I've given away all of my 8" drives. :-( From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 21:54:42 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:54:42 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org> <040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20070509025442.GB7160@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 07:55:15PM -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >Huh? The bottom has pretty much dropped out of the DLT market. > >264-slot DLT libraries *don't* sell on ebay for $10. (DEC TL896 aka ATL > >ACS-2640's) Drives aren't that expensive either, and LTO is starting > >to come down a lot in price. > > So try to find that (at that price, hehe) in Brazil... :o( That's what international shipping is for. It shouldn't be hard to find cheap DLT drive off ebay, a standalone drive isn't all that heavy, and shouldn't be expensive to ship, even to Brazil. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 8 22:00:39 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:00:39 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On May 8, 2007, at 10:11 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> I was thinking GTK+ :-) >> >> So compile wxWidgets to use the GTK backend - I get my >> object-oriented API (I've been spoiled by Swing), you get your cute >> little GTK widgets. Win-win :) > > It seems to me that it'd make more sense to write some sort of UI in > plain ANSI C, with a text-based UI. Worry about the GUI part later > (and then you can feel free to use whatever whiz-bang graphics you > want > without annoying people like me, if it's got a good CLI). > > Possibly just write a library for doing basically everything you > want to > do with the device, and distribute that with some sort of API > reference, which should make writing a clean/portable/changeable UI > that much easier. This is a fantastic way to do things like this...If more software were developed in this manner, I'd have torn out a lot less hair by now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 8 22:14:03 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 20:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> <4640E73B.8030207@yahoo.co.uk> <4640F8C8.2060707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20070508201209.C48012@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 May 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Mmmmm.... wet string. You might need to change the wetting agent to handle colder climates. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 22:38:10 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:38:10 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 23:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 8, 2007, at 10:11 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Possibly just write a library for doing basically everything you > > want to > > do with the device, and distribute that with some sort of API > > reference, which should make writing a clean/portable/changeable UI > > that much easier. > > This is a fantastic way to do things like this...If more software > were developed in this manner, I'd have torn out a lot less hair by > now. I think this is why I can't stand to work for a company that develops software (as I had in the past). Too many cut corners, assuming 100% of their users are idiots, and trying to develop code by piling more and more crap onto their old code base. I'm really, REALLY glad thatI don't work for that place anymore, and I work soemwhere that sysadmins actually write code, debug OSes, and are encouraged to make things clean and reusable, and avoid hacks. Oddly enough, since we have the source code to the commercial HSM at work, I'm pretty sure that we know how it works (and can debug it) better than the current vendor can (few, if any, of the original programmers for the code still work on it, as the software has gone through quite a few corporate acquisitions). In fact, I can't rememeber a single bug report that we've submitted in the past year or so, which we haven't figured out the fix for before EM^Wthe vendor got back to us with any sort of usable workaround. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 8 22:47:00 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:47:00 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> <200705082059.18358.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <006f01c791ec$b707ce80$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:59 PM Subject: Re: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges > On Tuesday 08 May 2007 15:48, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Well I would expect people here to have "data", but I would think most > > people just have stuff they can download or rip again (music and movies). > > That's still a nontrivial investment in time, though, and how do we recover > that? > > -- > Well they just download a few TB of other junk they will never use :) From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue May 8 22:58:49 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 20:58:49 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705081741p74e157b9iea952d86d5b6372c@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> <51ea77730705081741p74e157b9iea952d86d5b6372c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Jason T wrote: > The IBM has a new owner - who I believe is on this list. I was sorry > not to get it, but I'm used to finding my machines at hamfests, > auctions and thrift stores. I couldn't compete in a bidding war for > this one, cool as it was. If it's going where I think it's going, it > will have lots of care and loads of other machines to keep it warm at > night (and all day,) and will not be torn apart for gold or junked in > a landfill, and that's what counts. Any idea of the final price? I am curious. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 23:02:54 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 01:02:54 -0300 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <048101c791ef$0f0d4e50$f0fea8c0@alpha> > If there were easily-available (and cheap) SCSI slave controllers, and I > had a SCSI host adapter, I might consider using SCSI. Fact is though, it's > much easier just to throw in a USB PIC and program it to control the CPLD. > But even so, SCSI is total overkill anyway - it's designed for connecting > fast computers to really fast hard drives, and it does really well at > that. For scanners and other I/O peripherals I wouldn't even consider it. I don't think SCSI is worth considering. You can have easily RS232 AND USB 1.1 (don't remember if a 2.0 chip is already avaiable) using a FT232 or like USB converter chip. For the ones who doesn't like USB, there is always the fallback for RS232. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 23:16:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:16:22 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 08, 2007 05:50:58 PM, <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4640E8A6.22885.3410E434@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 17:40, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Personally I'd rate it a bit different. > > DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm > > I don't remember ever dealing with Travan, though I think I have a couple > drives in the collection I've built at work. One of the problems with *most* QIC and Travan is that it's write-a- tape, then verify-a-tape. When you're dealing with "time is money" or "we gotta get in, and get out as fast as possible", the need to do a separate verify pass is a huge liability. 4mm/8mm/DLT are read- after-write technologies. In theory, you can have a pretty scruffy tape with them and still get the backup on the first try. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue May 8 23:21:24 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 05:21:24 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges References: <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009101c791f3$b85a8910$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Yeah, I can't ever remember seeing 4mm audio DAT tapes >used for data either.... OK, some years ago I used to routinely use DAT cassettes in my DDS1 & DDS2 drives without any issues whatsoever when I ran short of DDS tapes. So I can say that it *DOES* work! However, I've only ever tried this with HP DDS1 & 2 drives (which ISTR were manufactured for them by Mitsumi) so I can't speak for other makes. YMMV. OTOH These days I tend to use DDS tapes in my DAT recorder, as I don't use the DDS drives anymore and DAT tapes are as rare as hen's teeth. They're better than nothing, but produce SIGNIFICANTLY more audio dropouts than "real" DAT tapes though....maybe it's an Aiwa thing...? TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue May 8 23:37:13 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 05:37:13 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640D712.6030207@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <009201c791f3$b87982c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> The DAT tapes I have (going back to 60meter DDS-1) all have >>this media recognition system that the drives are supposed to >>respect, or so I thought. Did I think wrong? > > No, that sounds right. I'm sure that the OP is correct about the media recognition system....BUT.... ;-) I've just gone and fished out three of my DAT cassettes (two 90min [one Maxell, one TDK] and one 46min Maxell). Comparing them with the 60 meter HP DDS1 tape I still have lying next to my PC, the pattern of "media recognition" holes is 100% identical on all 4 tapes (in position AND depth). Go figure...? Maybe HP did things "their way"? TTFN - Pete. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue May 8 23:50:32 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:50:32 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> <51ea77730705081741p74e157b9iea952d86d5b6372c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705082150g52637c8eq2b9e004243bcff2@mail.gmail.com> On 5/8/07, Paxton Hoag wrote: > > Any idea of the final price? I am curious. Yes, as I was give a chance to offer a higher price. But as the buyer is likely on this list, I'll let him decide whether he'd care to divulge it. -- j From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 8 17:31:58 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 23:31:58 +0100 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705081814.OAA04413@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> <015e01c7916b$b9f83c50$6600a8c0@BILLING> <200705081814.OAA04413@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1178663519.730.5.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 14:09 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > [...] - a demonstrable pattern of non-enforcement of license does in > > fact weaken the ability to enforce it. That is why often a company > > will act to notify, issue a cease & desist, etc. an infringing entity > > about an infraction of license that they actually in fact don't > > really care about > > This is also part of the reason why it's often worth asking, because if > they don't care about your case they may well give you a license for > "nothing" - doing so does not produce a weakening of their ability to > slap down infringement they *do* care about. That is *exactly* why I asked them. I figured they'd either say "Yes, here's a licence, don't use it for commercial stuff", in which has I'd be fine happy, or they would say "Absolutely not, you need to buy a new copy", or they'd say nothing at all, which I would take to mean "We don't care and we don't want to know. Please don't make us care.". Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 8 18:27:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:27:18 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives Message-ID: <0JHQ00JTCX21RZ9R@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Pro380 disk drives > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:56:02 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >On 08/05/2007 15:53, Roger Ivie wrote: >> On Mon, 7 May 2007, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >>> Can the drives be formatted on a VAXstation 2000 and moved to a PRO ? >>> (like you can do from a VS2000 to a PDP-11 (with RQDX3 ?)) >> >> I doubt it. >> >> Folks have been talking about formatting on an RQDX1. The RQDX1 uses a >> different format than that used by the RQDX2 and the VS2000. You can't >> format a disk on an RQDX1 and use it in an RQDX2. >> >> The RQDX2 was built around a single-chip disk controller, SMC's HDC9224. >> The same controller was used in the VS2000. The RQDX1 had a hand-crafted >> disk controller that used a slightly different format. Among other >> things, an RQDX1 can stuff 18 sectors on a track whereas the RQDX2, >> VS2000, and PCs for that matter can only do 17. > >That's incorrect; I suspect you're thinking of the RQDX3. The RQDX2 is >just a modified RQDX1, and it definitely uses the same controller. They >both put 18 sectors per track, and use the same format. You can take a >disk formatted on an RQDX1 and connect it to an RQDX2, though in some >cases the RQDX2 will alter some values on the disk and then it won't be >recognised properly if you move it back to the RQDX1 (depending on the >level of firmware on the two controllers). > >The RQDX3 definitely *is* different, and you have to reformat hard >drives for that (and AFAIR *that's* the same format as VS2000). Pete You have it correct 100%. The RQDX1/2 are the same board and mostly interchageable depending on firmware rev. It's a Quad width board. RQDX3 is a smaller board (dual VS quad) and is fully compatable format wise with VS2000. Allison >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From bqt at softjar.se Tue May 8 18:54:02 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 01:54:02 +0200 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> "Jay West" skrev: Johnny wrote... > > Jerome makes some interesting, if strange and faulty assumptions. > > Such as assuming that since Mentec hasn't complained although people > > "appear" to have been using and posting about RT-11 on classiccmp list > > for a long time. ...and... > > So I would somewhat ignore Jeromes view on the legality of things. > No, actually, Jerome's points are valid and his views are worth far more > than an admonishment to ignore them. I don't agree in this case. While I usually don't bother, since he's mostly into RT-11, which I haven't used, we're in rather separate worlds. But his assumptions about Mentec are just assumptions. > I should point out something that you dont seem to be aware of (at least > based on your statement above) - a demonstrable pattern of non-enforcement > of license does in fact weaken the ability to enforce it. That is why often > a company will act to notify, issue a cease & desist, etc. an infringing > entity about an infraction of license that they actually in fact don't > really care about - because it can then be argued that they didn't enforce > it in case xyz, so how can they selectively enforce it in another instance. Yes, but this is all based on the assumption that the company is aware. Otherwise it's not a point at all. So you should then first of all demostrate that the company *is* aware, and haven't bother taking action. I haven't seen that proven yet, and I'm pretty sure you haven't either... For the company to be aware two criteria must be fulfilled: 1) Mentec must know of this list, and monitor it. 2) People on this list must in no unclear terms make it clear that they are breaking the license agreements or violating Mentecs rights. And as I said before, I haven't seen either of these two proven yet. But to make it easier for Mentec (in case they are looking), how about a head count. Anyone who is using Mentec software without having a correct license: let us all know. Make a public reply to this. That will atleast fulfill one of the two requirements (if anyone will reply to this call out.) > This is also one of several reasons that some - not all - companies are wary > of creating a hobbyist license, because there is some amount of perception > that it will put their ability to enforce a license at peril - or at the > least possibly cloud the issue. Yes. That is true. > On a separate and unrelated point, I believe Johnny (or someone) questioned > whether Mentec is aware of this list, various archives, etc. I can assure > you that they are, just as Jerome intoned. Really? And how do you know this? Just because one ex-Mentec employee occasionally post here, do you think that Mentec knows about it? For all that I wish that a hobbyist program was available, none exist at the moment, and actions and false beliefs like this is likely going to keep preventing it from ever happening... Call me Mr. Negative if you like. I just try to point out things as I see them. You may all disagree. Can't help that. Atleast I got valid licenses. And you can have that too, if you pay for it. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 8 20:39:28 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:39:28 -0400 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's Message-ID: <0JHR00HQU369AP86@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into >something like this? > >http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port_tv&pscat2= > >I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would be >to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 >monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) > >Zane My Ti99/4a works fine with the NTSC and HD LCD TVs in the house. Same for the Proc-tech VDM1 and TRS80. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 8 20:42:49 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:42:49 -0400 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's Message-ID: <0JHR00I2T3BUEB0H@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into >something like this? > >http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port_tv&pscat2= > >I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would be >to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 >monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) > >Zane I forgot to add I've been on the hunt for a monochrome or color (not needed) for use instead of the rather old 9" Panasonic I monitor I use. I'm more interested in monitor (no tuner) and 12V operation. Allison From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 01:41:52 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 03:41:52 -0300 Subject: Mentec References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> Message-ID: <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> > For all that I wish that a hobbyist program was available, none exist at > the moment, and actions and false beliefs like this is likely going to > keep preventing it from ever happening... > Call me Mr. Negative if you like. I just try to point out things as I > see them. You may all disagree. Can't help that. Atleast I got valid > licenses. And you can have that too, if you pay for it. SSS question (simple, small and stupid): If your puter needs RT11 or whatever, and it was being used until decomissioned, wasn't it being used with a valid license? Isn't that license transfered? Is it still valid? If the license isn't transfered what is the destiny of it? Ok, dumb questions, but...so what? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 01:46:57 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 03:46:57 -0300 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's References: <0JHR00I2T3BUEB0H@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <050401c79206$1d28f130$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I forgot to add I've been on the hunt for a monochrome or color (not > needed) > for use instead of the rather old 9" Panasonic I monitor I use. I'm more > interested in monitor (no tuner) and 12V operation. Playstation one LCD monitors ;o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 02:06:30 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 04:06:30 -0300 Subject: Brazilian collector troubles. Was:Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org><040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha> <20070509025442.GB7160@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <051d01c79208$98088f80$f0fea8c0@alpha> > That's what international shipping is for. > It shouldn't be hard to find cheap DLT drive off ebay, a standalone > drive isn't all that heavy, and shouldn't be expensive to ship, even to > Brazil. Yes, but there are lots of variables on this thing: - International credit cards are not so common in Brazil. Myself, as an example, I don't have one. No paypal therefore. - Not all sellers ship international. Dunno why. Lots of things I tried to buy on EBAY before were denied because of international shipping - no matter how expensive or cheap it would be - In Brazil, believe it or not, we still have heavily taxing of anything abroad. It is a game of luck. Or no luck. A DLT drive can pass thru (it almost always happens) or be taxed as a new $5000 DLT drive. 60% on the price + shipping. Buying things in USA is an adventure for all of us. Why do you think I don't have simple things as a Speccy or a BBC, or an Atari 512/1024? Well, at least we have good beaches and nice sun ;o) As sad as it can be, these are the rules :o( Greetings from Brazil Alexandre http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed May 9 02:10:54 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 00:10:54 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> <51ea77730705081741p74e157b9iea952d86d5b6372c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464173FE.9040004@sbcglobal.net> I had offered him the $600 he was asking plus $150 to pack it all up and put it on a pallet. Total = $750. Bob Paxton Hoag wrote: > On 5/8/07, Jason T wrote: >> The IBM has a new owner - who I believe is on this list. I was sorry >> not to get it, but I'm used to finding my machines at hamfests, >> auctions and thrift stores. I couldn't compete in a bidding war for >> this one, cool as it was. If it's going where I think it's going, it >> will have lots of care and loads of other machines to keep it warm at >> night (and all day,) and will not be torn apart for gold or junked in >> a landfill, and that's what counts. > > > Any idea of the final price? I am curious. > > Paxton > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 9 02:51:45 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 00:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: Mac SE/30 Message-ID: Does anyone here have a Mac SE/30 in good working order? I'd prefer one with little to no yellowing, keyboard, mouse, a good crt, and good floppy. Hard drive is unimportant as I have plenty of suitable SCSI drives. Extra memory would be nice too. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From robert at irrelevant.com Wed May 9 03:26:13 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 09:26:13 +0100 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705090126w5e2aacf6t98efdfb48079ffd6@mail.gmail.com> On 09/05/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > SSS question (simple, small and stupid): > > If your puter needs RT11 or whatever, and it was being used until > decomissioned, wasn't it being used with a valid license? Isn't that license > transfered? Is it still valid? If the license isn't transfered what is the > destiny of it? > > Ok, dumb questions, but...so what? > I can't speak for RT11, but in the "whatever" case.. the company I user to work for was a reseller for "BOS" (later Global) software. The licences we sold to the end-users were basically: - for that company's use only - for use on any server they owned (to a qty limit as definied by the licence)[1] - not transferrable. - in some cases, dependant on an annual fee. This meant that it was trivial to replace servers, even for different architectures (as there was no distinction made between, say, pdp11, x86, novell, windows installations, and you could just copy the apps and data between them - the OS discs fo each implementation were issued for a "nominal" copy charge..) However, we had a couple of instances where a company went belly-up, the assets were sold to a new company intending to re-start trading "in-place" as it were, but they had to buy a completely new licence to use the software on the machines they had in their posession unchanged. (It helped, probably, that the company name and address of the original licence holder was always displayed prominantly on the sign-in screen!) So... yes,the machine might move on and still work for its new owner, but the software wouldn't then be licenced! Rob [1]assuming they bought a "network" version, which covered all machines that were linked in some form - we successfully argued once that half a dozen sites that had a modem link between to transfer transactions overnight counted as a single network... From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 9 04:11:36 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 10:11:36 +0100 Subject: FPGA CPU's (was: Re: wonderful assembly language book) In-Reply-To: References: <200705061702.l46H1e4D078554@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: FPGA designs Which reminds me back in 1987 or so I bought a NX4 single board computer that ran Forth was that a FPGA design? it had a Mostek MKGD02TG as far as I can make out from the picture. It failed some years ago when I last had a play with it. Dave Caroline pic at www.archivist.info/computers/nx4.jpg From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 9 07:26:06 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 07:26:06 -0500 Subject: Mentec References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> Message-ID: <008901c79235$3a2abd70$6600a8c0@BILLING> Johnny wrote... >But his assumptions about Mentec are just assumptions. I guess you weren't reading between the lines in my post. > So you should then first of all > demostrate that the company *is* aware, and haven't bother taking > action. Oh I should? Hypothetically, what if doing so is currently counterproductive? > I haven't seen that proven yet, and I'm pretty sure you haven't > either... Interesting. ....snip... > Really? And how do you know this? Just because one ex-Mentec employee > occasionally post here, do you think that Mentec knows about it? Now that - is an assumption on your part. Just because you don't know about something, and the people involved aren't willing to discuss it publicly with you, doesn't mean it didn't occur. Jay West From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 9 07:44:20 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 08:44:20 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <0JHQ00JTCX21RZ9R@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JHQ00JTCX21RZ9R@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Allison wrote: > The RQDX1/2 are the same board and mostly interchageable depending on > firmware rev. It's a Quad width board. What are the essential differences between an RQDX1 and RQDX2? AFAICR, the RQDX1 doesn't pass grant below it so it *must* be the last board on the bus, but the RQDX2 doesn't have that limitation; and, the RQDX2, I think, knows about one or two more drives than the RQDX1. a) is that correct? and b) is that all? I have at least one RQDX1, several RQDX3, and I don't think I have any RQDX2, but one never knows what one will stumble across. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 9 07:49:45 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 07:49:45 -0500 Subject: License (was: Mentec) References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org><46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <009801c79238$881b1a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> It was written... > If your puter needs RT11 or whatever, and it was being used until > decomissioned, wasn't it being used with a valid license? Isn't that > license transfered? Is it still valid? If the license isn't transfered > what is the destiny of it? There is no cut and dry answer, at the least because of the phrase "or whatever". Some software is sold (implying a transfer of ownership), some software is licensed (implying only a right-to-use). Separately, there can also be conditions on either transaction as to reverse engineering, re-sale or re-licensing, subletting or "rental", partial inclusion in derivative works, etc. The simple answer - just because you received a machine with a valid license doesn't neccessarily mean that license is valid to you. It may be. It might not be. It was common that when a software was licensed (not sold) - the license was tied to the machine. This meant that if you gave or sold the machine to someone else, the license (right to use) was transferred with the machine. I believe this was the case with the base 2-user HP-UX on HP9000 gear for example during the period I was involved with selling it (it was not true for add-on licenses above 2 users). It was also another common practice that when the software was licensed it was tied to the purchasing company instead of the machine. If the company sold the machine they could not (legally) provide the software (or perhaps the license) with it. That means that what ever company bought the system would have to go purchase a license for the software in order to be legal. In other words, the license was not transferrable. That is why the term "right to use" is probably more clear. To confuse matters more - I have seen various software packages where the policy changed over time. For example - early on in a software products life it may have been sold to each customer outright (while copyright was retained of course). Then later versions were only licensed. Also complicating the picture is that some times a company would have different licensing policies for the OS versus layered products. 3rd party application software could of course also have different terms than the underlying OS. I must say I don't know what DEC's policy was. Pure conjecture on my part - but my GUESS would be that for the appropriate fee you received a non-transferrable right to use. So if the computer goes to someone else, they have to buy their own license. I do know that some vendors would charge for a whole new license, while others would charge a token "license transfer fee". I think sometimes this depended on the current desire of management to get maintenance revenue from the company it was transferring to. In other words, for a small shop they may not see much future revenue in maintenance/support fees so they quote a full license transfer. For a large shop they may be willing to lowball the license transfer just to get the maintenance/support fees. It all depends. One datapoint - I know that most (if not all) versions of TSX+ were licensed to the company, non-transferrable. If you got their original disks and they were no longer using it - you still did not own a license. You had to buy the "right to use" yourself. Hope this expands on the issue! Jay Jay From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed May 9 06:48:12 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 07:48:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <60BCBB3C-8B90-4934-B390-A353CB62890E@neurotica.com> References: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> <60BCBB3C-8B90-4934-B390-A353CB62890E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 8, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in >>>> specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: >>>> >>>> DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. >>> >>> Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use tapes >>> all that much. >> >> Personally I'd rate it a bit different. >> >> DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm > > My ordering would be: > DLT > QIC > 4mm DAT > 8mm > > In my experience, both 4mm and 8mm are "write-only backups". I shy away > from any helical-scan media at this point. DLT is rock-solid and I trust my > most critical stuff to it every day. It's hard to believe that it grew out > of the abominable TK-50! Amen. My experiences with 4 & 8mm rotary-head units have been abysmal. The Exabyte drives, in particular, just seem to randomly drop dead without warning. And, as others comment, the 1/2-ht. front-loading Exabyte drives are a mechanical nightmare. They make the worst 80s vintage VCR load mechanism look downright simple to repair. The majority of my backups are made on DLT IV tapes using DLT7000 series drives (mostly Compaq and HP OEM units). If you have the latest firmware flashed, they are incredibly solid. In some cases, used tapes require a heroic amount of bulk erasing before they can be reliably written. I have heard this is a result of them being previously used on lower-density drives, but have no proof of this. One of the coolest features of DLT is that they are self-aligning. The drive goes through an intricate dance during tape load to teach the head servo where each track center is. I believe they are capable of re-training during operation if things are found to drift. Also, someone in this thread mentioned that DLT IV was not a read-after-write medium. Is that really the case? I have seen drives throw errors when trying to write damaged media. If they don't do a read-back, how would they know? Another personal favorite is the late Onstream linear tape drive. I have an ADR2 120GB external SCSI drive that just keeps on ticking. Media is getting tough to find, but occasionally I score a few cartridges on ebay. For reasons unknown, the 1/2 size 60GB ADR cartridges do not work at all in these drives. The 120s have never given a problem. These units do not seem to perform a read-after-write, but I've gotten in the habit of making a second verification pass on the tape before considering a backup complete. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed May 9 06:50:34 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 07:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I?ve done a bit of searching for this but can?t locate it. Does anyone > have a scannable copy of the schematic for the Mockingboard sound board for > the Apple II? The folks at GSE Reactive have revived the Mockingboard as a product. One presumes they have the schematic available: http://www.gse-reactive.com/ -- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 9 07:56:19 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:56:19 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives Message-ID: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Pro380 disk drives > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:44:20 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 5/8/07, Allison wrote: >> The RQDX1/2 are the same board and mostly interchageable depending on >> firmware rev. It's a Quad width board. > >What are the essential differences between an RQDX1 and RQDX2? >AFAICR, the RQDX1 doesn't pass grant below it so it *must* be the last >board on the bus, but the RQDX2 doesn't have that limitation; and, the >RQDX2, I think, knows about one or two more drives than the RQDX1. a) >is that correct? and b) is that all? > >I have at least one RQDX1, several RQDX3, and I don't think I have any >RQDX2, but one never knows what one will stumble across. > >-ethan They looks the same but the handle has a different rev. The real differences are bug fixes. Essentially the RQDX2 is a bugfixed RQDX1 with later firmware that is aware of a larger (at that time) assortment of drives. In the real world of MSPC controllers RQDX3 is most desireable and RQDX1 the least. FYI: some flavors of RQDX1/2 didn't pass interrupt grant and MUST be the last card in the chain. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 9 08:17:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 09:17:37 -0400 Subject: License (was: Mentec) In-Reply-To: <009801c79238$881b1a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> <009801c79238$881b1a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 5/9/07, Jay West wrote: > I must say I don't know what DEC's policy was. Pure conjecture on my part - > but my GUESS would be that for the appropriate fee you received a > non-transferrable right to use. So if the computer goes to someone else, > they have to buy their own license. I do know that some vendors would charge > for a whole new license, while others would charge a token "license transfer > fee". I happen to have a genine, registered license for VMS for an 11/725 I bought during a period of transition in DEC's licensing practices, so I can at least speak to that. Before some date (Feb, 1987?), if you bought a VAX from someone else, both parties completed a multi-part form to transfer the license from the old owner to the new owner. This did not include updates, maintenance, or anything except what was "on" the machine when it changed hands. DEC resellers used to keep file cabinets full of paperwork that had the seller's half filled out so that when the hardware sold, the new buyer completed their part and the license transferred (with the reseller acting as middleman, but not directly involved in the chain of custody). From all the activity back and forth, DEC knew how large the relicensing market was, and for a variety of reasons (direct revenue, encouraging buyers to look at new systems vs old, etc.), DEC halted the practice of license transfer. Stocks of machines plunged in intrinsic value since the licenses on them were worthless. I bought my 11/725 the month prior to the change in policy, so I got it for a steal (at the time) since the next month, its former sale price would be a small fraction of the cost of a new license ($10,000!). This ban on transfers lasted about a month. Obviously, someone was made to realize that requiring all used VAXen to have new licenses wouldn't turn into buckets of money pouring into DEC either in the form of new licenses or new hardware sales, and, most likely, would result in customers examining technology from other vendors, so the new policy was to continue to process the old paperwork the old way, but with a $250 fee attached to the process. The buyer typically paid the fee, so it had a minimal impact on the commercial used equipment market. The policy change did affect us where I worked at the time - since we used a 11/730 for production, even into the 1990s (small software dev box that could run a different version of the OS from our primary environment), the cheapest way for a number of years to keep that box alive was to buy deeply discounted machines, then strip them. "Nobody" wanted an 11/725 in the late 1980s, and they were somewhat cheap to ship, especially if you let th reseller reclaim the RC25 drive before selling it to you - The PSU and CPU boards were identical to the 11/730, so it was cheaper to buy an entire machine as a box of spares than it was to be offline for a couple of days, scrambling to get parts in and get the box working. The only impact to us, in the end, was that we didn't bother to pay to have the licenses transferred since we were going to gut the machine anyway. Formerly, we got a box of parts and a license we didn't use (but it was an asset with some potential value as a base for an upgrade); now, we just let the license evaporate. All that having been said, I have a memory that DEC did _not_ treat PDP-11 products in the same way. I _think_ PDP-11 OSes had non-transferrable licenses pretty much across the board, but RSTS/E might have been an exception. For non-commercial users (hobbyists), though, I remember the real issue was access to distribution kits. I was so happy when a friend loaned me his set of 2.BSD tapes because it was something to load on my PDP-11 other than the floppies and packs that came with it when it was chucked out (old versions of RT-11 and RSX-11 - too old to be interesting at the time). With the modern ability to toss around multi-hundred-megabyte files like we used to swap floppies, physical access to install media is much less of an issue than it once was. Licensing, however, is just as thorny, if not thornier due to commercial disinterest in products that old with no obvious revenue stream attached to them. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 9 08:39:19 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:39:19 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4641CF07.7070405@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > So now you know why I'm fiercely protective of my laptop (a Toshiba > Satellite Pro 4600) - it's a 1GHz Mobile Pentium III with Cardbus, > RS232, parallel, WiFi and USB - only USB1.1, but it's better than the > modern 2GHz ubermachines that only have USB and VGA (and even that's a > push with most of them - some only have DVI-out). My favorite laptop is the Thinkpad A31p. 1600x1200 15" screen, room for a DVD-writer and a DVD-ROM at the same time, or two extra batteries, cheap docking stations available, a full complement of ports, etc. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 9 08:39:05 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:39:05 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4641CEF9.2040903@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > So now you know why I'm fiercely protective of my laptop (a Toshiba > Satellite Pro 4600) - it's a 1GHz Mobile Pentium III with Cardbus, > RS232, parallel, WiFi and USB - only USB1.1, but it's better than the > modern 2GHz ubermachines that only have USB and VGA (and even that's a > push with most of them - some only have DVI-out). My favorite laptop is the Thinkpad A31p. 1600x1200 15" screen, room for a DVD-writer and a DVD-ROM at the same time, or two extra batteries, cheap docking stations available, etc. Peace... Sridhar From vrs at msn.com Wed May 9 08:52:35 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 06:52:35 -0700 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Dave Caroline" > quick and dirty pics of the Signetics databook Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. Vince From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 9 08:53:42 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:53:42 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4641D266.8060105@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in >>> specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: >>> >>> DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. >> Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use tapes >> all that much. > > Personally I'd rate it a bit different. > > DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm > > I don't remember ever dealing with Travan, though I think I have a couple > drives in the collection I've built at work. I definitely wouldn't rate DAT/DDS anywhere near that highly. I've found that 8mm tapes are fine if you don't write over them again and again. I can't say the same for DDS. Peace... Sridhar From wizard at voyager.net Wed May 9 08:55:30 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:55:30 -0400 Subject: License (was: Mentec) In-Reply-To: <009801c79238$881b1a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> <009801c79238$881b1a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1178718930.6825.131.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 07:49 -0500, Jay West wrote: > . . . Some software is sold (implying a transfer of ownership), some > software is licensed (implying only a right-to-use). Several court decisions about software (dates uncertain) made it at least seem important to software companies that they license software, rather than sell it. > Separately, there can also be conditions on either transaction > as to reverse engineering, re-sale or re-licensing, subletting > or "rental", partial inclusion in derivative works, etc. Yes, that was the substance of the decisions I mention above. It was determined that if you buy a product, you have the right to reverse engineer, rent, transfer, or essentially do anything you wish with it. "Okay, fine, we won't sell it any more" was the response of the software industry, almost to a company. > The simple answer - just because you received a machine with a valid license > doesn't neccessarily mean that license is valid to you. It may be. It might > not be. Exactly. What you can do, and what you actually HAVE, in a software licensing agreement, depends entirely upon the agreement itself. Naturally enough, those agreements, written by the software company's attorneys, strongly favor the company. > To confuse matters more - I have seen various software packages where the > policy changed over time. For example - early on in a software products life > it may have been sold to each customer outright (while copyright was > retained of course). Then later versions were only licensed. Yes. After the decisions, many companies dropped their sales programs in favor of licensing. Licensing generated much more income for the software companies, as transfers of equipment generally resulted in additional licensing fees from the new owners. Voila! An industry is born. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 8 21:43:55 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 20:43:55 -0600 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4641356B.7090206@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard A. Cini wrote: > Yes, odd indeed. It was like drinking from a fire hose last night. Anyway, > the theory goes that the entire genome is coded in base triplets which > encode only 64 proteins (6-bits). > > This "emulation" problem has been gnawing at him for over 10 years and he > figures that now since the genome is fully mapped (although functions are > still unknown), he can do some good. There has been lots of research, but > any testing or whatever is still performed on live tissue. Why not emulate > it? > > I didn't take down his entire curriculum vitae, but he's an EE that got into > medicine (podiatry) and has a side interest in genetics (I guess). Hey, I > read Scientific American, too, and I having a passing interest, but I'm not > a man of medicine. > > Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's > function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. > > Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? I could talk only as hobby type project, but for computer hardware what is needed? Other what is EE? I don't think it is too hard to understand. You don't need medicine for hardware - just think tinker-toys since the basic level is still atomic structures. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 9 09:47:21 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 07:47:21 -0700 Subject: FPGA CPU's (was: Re: wonderful assembly language book) Message-ID: >From: "Dave Caroline" > >FPGA designs > >Which reminds me back in 1987 or so I bought a NX4 single board >computer that ran Forth was that a FPGA design? it had a Mostek >MKGD02TG as far as I can make out from the picture. It failed some >years ago when I last had a play with it. > >Dave Caroline > >pic at www.archivist.info/computers/nx4.jpg Hi There were several Forth implementations during that time. After the NC4000 was created, many realized how easy it was to create a Forth processor with the newer technology in ASIC or programmable arrays. I wonder what has failed on your board. If it isn't the chip, the rest of the board is relatively standard parts. These Forth board were often used as accelerators for PC systems. Several test that showed that these simple processors could run application more than 10 times faster than similar clocked x86 or 68K machines of the time. The RTX2000's were made RAD hardened and used quite a bit in satellites. Much of the speed was because Forth lends it self to a 3 bus architectures that functionally used at least two of these buss on each instruction. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Catch suspicious messages before you open them?with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 9 09:57:48 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 07:57:48 -0700 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's In-Reply-To: <0JHR00I2T3BUEB0H@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: >From: Allison > > > > >Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's > > From: "Zane H. Healy" > > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into > >something like this? > > > >http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port_tv&pscat2= > > > >I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would >be > >to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 > >monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) > > > >Zane > >I forgot to add I've been on the hunt for a monochrome or color (not >needed) >for use instead of the rather old 9" Panasonic I monitor I use. I'm more >interested in monitor (no tuner) and 12V operation. > Hi Allison It seems like I saw someone else mention the monitors used in head rest for cars. These mostly use S video or similar signals. A few months back, I bought two screens, DVD player, two headphones, video distribution amp, FM to radio and FM to headsets for a little over $300. This was on ebay. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ See what you?re getting into?before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 9 11:12:03 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 12:12:03 -0400 Subject: Brazilian collector troubles. Was:Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <051d01c79208$98088f80$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org><040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha> <20070509025442.GB7160@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> <051d01c79208$98088f80$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <6C5C93C1-F007-40E3-B0F7-26EE996FC861@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2007, at 3:06 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> That's what international shipping is for. >> It shouldn't be hard to find cheap DLT drive off ebay, a standalone >> drive isn't all that heavy, and shouldn't be expensive to ship, >> even to >> Brazil. > > Yes, but there are lots of variables on this thing: > > - International credit cards are not so common in Brazil. > Myself, as an example, I don't have one. No paypal therefore. > - Not all sellers ship international. Dunno why. Lots of things > I tried to buy on EBAY before were denied because of international > shipping - no matter how expensive or cheap it would be International shipping is a big pain in the butt, overall. Customs garbage, paperwork paperwork paperwork. Most people here avoid it for that reason. I'm still working up the mental energy to ship you those chips we talked about. :) > Well, at least we have good beaches and nice sun ;o) > > As sad as it can be, these are the rules :o( Well...I live in Florida, about two miles from the Gulf of Mexico...We have some good beaches here too. BUT it seems you have the most beautiful women in the world. I'd say that's a pretty big point in Brasil's favor. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 9 11:33:05 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 09:33:05 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4641D266.8060105@gmail.com> References: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> <4641D266.8060105@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:53 AM -0400 5/9/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>>8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in >>>>specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this >>>>way: >>>> >>>>DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. >>>Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use >>>tapes all that much. >> >>Personally I'd rate it a bit different. >> >>DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm >> >>I don't remember ever dealing with Travan, though I think I have a couple >>drives in the collection I've built at work. > >I definitely wouldn't rate DAT/DDS anywhere near that highly. I've >found that 8mm tapes are fine if you don't write over them again and >again. I can't say the same for DDS. I'm less concerned about the ability to rewrite the tapes than I am about the ability to *READ* the tapes. My experience has shown that DDS1 tapes are an absolute nightmare, as are 8mm tapes. However, we've had pretty good luck at work recovering data from DDS2 and newer DAT tapes, as well as QIC150 tapes (though it's been years since anyone has turned up with one of those). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed May 9 12:21:08 2007 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:21:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Info sought Message-ID: <19875.88.211.153.27.1178731268.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hey all, Anybody familiar with a person called Don Crowther (Maynard, Mass.) His ebay handle is 'doncrow'. I bought an item from him and up to know he did not respond to 2 inquiries for follow up. Thanks, Ed From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 12:17:39 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 12:17:39 -0500 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... Message-ID: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Rather an odd find today, tucked away in a box of printer paper: A pair of "Olivetti Minidisks". The flexible disks are around 2" in diameter, but curiously have no jacket whatsoever - just a cardboard sleeve to protect them when not in use. I've never come across these before; any idea what system(s) they're for? Were they something cheap and cheerful for some sort of word processor machine? cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 12:30:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 12:30:40 -0500 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > *must proof-read subject line before sending* - d'oh! :-) From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed May 9 12:56:59 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:56:59 -0400 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: dwight elvey wrote: > A few months back, I bought two screens, DVD player, > two headphones, video distribution amp, FM to radio > and FM to headsets for a little over $300. A quiet car trip with two children, priceless. ;-) No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.6/794 - Release Date: 5/8/2007 2:23 PM From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 9 13:05:10 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:05:10 +0100 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: You have got me hunting here now!, we have an early Olibetti calculating "thing" an Audit 5 iirc here that did the purchase sales and wages of a local company (Ordish and Hall) it used straight magnetic strips though (we have them in a box) Dave Caroline On 5/9/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > *must proof-read subject line before sending* - d'oh! :-) > > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 9 13:17:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:17:35 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: References: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> <4641D266.8060105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4642103F.3010209@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I definitely wouldn't rate DAT/DDS anywhere near that highly. I've >> found that 8mm tapes are fine if you don't write over them again and >> again. I can't say the same for DDS. > > I'm less concerned about the ability to rewrite the tapes than I am > about the ability to *READ* the tapes. My experience has shown that > DDS1 tapes are an absolute nightmare, as are 8mm tapes. However, we've > had pretty good luck at work recovering data from DDS2 and newer DAT > tapes, as well as QIC150 tapes (though it's been years since anyone has > turned up with one of those). That's what I mean. I usually can't read DAT tapes that have been sitting on the shelf, even if they were new when first written. The only 8mm tapes I couldn't read were the ones that were written and written and written. Peace... Sridhar From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 9 13:19:54 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 11:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Info sought In-Reply-To: <19875.88.211.153.27.1178731268.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <54838.30727.qm@web82613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hey all, > > Anybody familiar with a person called Don Crowther > (Maynard, Mass.) > His ebay handle is 'doncrow'. I bought a few items from him, and they were delivered with no problem. --Bill From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 9 13:23:38 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:23:38 +0100 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Perhaps its from one of these an Olivetti BCS2030 see http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=41469 Dave Caroline From silent700 at gmail.com Wed May 9 13:26:15 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 13:26:15 -0500 Subject: The Plato system Message-ID: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> When contemplating spending some fairly serious coin on that IBM system earlier this week, a friend asked "which systems/machines out there would you pay 'real' money for?" Since I'm not a Big Iron collector, and I'm used to spending no more than $10-20 on any given piece, that's a fair question for me. Maybe a Symbolics Lisp machine. Maybe an original Sun machine, or even a 2-series. A Xerox Alto. Historical stuff like that. Then I remembered when my high school class took a trip down to the U of I at Champaign-Urbana for "Engineering Open House" and I was sat in front of this monstrous wooden terminal with beguiling orange vector graphics. Only many years later did I learn what it was, and where it fit in the timeline of computing (thanks in part to Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib/Dream Machines" books.) So...who has one? What's become of the remaining infrastructure? I recently used a Windows Plato client to connect to some descendant of the system, but I asssume even the back end was running on modern hardware then, and not old Data General equipment. -j -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 13:35:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:35:11 -0500 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4642145F.3010805@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Caroline wrote: > You have got me hunting here now!, we have an early Olibetti > calculating "thing" an Audit 5 iirc here that did the purchase sales > and wages of a local company (Ordish and Hall) it used straight > magnetic strips though (we have them in a box) Hmm, that does sort of tie in - one of the "storage jackets" for these disks has the text: MLC sales ledger MAILDF Labels and letters NO. ... which sounds like the same sort of application as your magnetic strips hold. The "No." bit is interesting; because the disks are just the "innards" of a floppy, there's no way of labeling the contents. There's a 4-digit number printed on both of the two disks that I have here though - I assume that the intention was to write the disk's number on the jacket and then use the jacket label to describe the disk's contents. How you were guaranteed to never get the same number twice, I don't know - unless the disks were only ever "read only" and supplied by Olivetti, rather than intended to hold user data? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 9 13:43:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 14:43:50 -0400 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/9/07, Jason T wrote: > ... I remembered when my high school > class took a trip down to the U of I at Champaign-Urbana for > "Engineering Open House" and I was sat in front of this monstrous > wooden terminal with beguiling orange vector graphics... I first ran into Plato at Ohio State. There were two or three terminals set up in one of the libraries. > So...who has one? What's become of the remaining infrastructure? I > recently used a Windows Plato client to connect to some descendant of > the system, but I asssume even the back end was running on modern > hardware then, and not old Data General equipment. I don't think there is much, if anything, of the original hardware in friendly hands, but some of the application infrastructure has been reproduced and is accessible through... http://www.cyber1.org/ It's been at least a year, but I have gotten on from a Linux client through a fairly tight firewall. The folks there can help you relive some of your Plato experiences (in my case, it was the graphical chemistry series that I really remember - fractional distillation of mixed hydrocarbons and what not). -ethan From bqt at softjar.se Wed May 9 09:32:32 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:32:32 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) In-Reply-To: <200705091408.l49E7GXI044626@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705091408.l49E7GXI044626@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4641DB80.7080709@softjar.se> To answer a few details in short. PDP-11 licenses (alteast RSX, and I believe all of them) are bound to a specific customer. So they don't transfer along with the hardware. However, DEC did have a license transfer program. It wasn't expensive, and I used it at my end back when DEC still existed. I think it was still possible to transfer licenses after Mentec bought the software and DEC still sold it. What the exact status of this is right now, I don't know. Haven't asked. As for Jay West and Jerome Fine's claims that it's all right just because Mentec haven't set any lawyers on their backs must stand for them. I don't think it's okay, and furthermore, I don't think their claims that it's OK because they think that Mentec knows a lot of things will hold much water if it went to court. But that's just my thoughts. And yes, I do speak with Mentec on business matters from time to time, so I'm not totally unaware of what they do. If Jay West happens to know for a fact that Mentec is aware of the discussions here, and furthermore, have proof that people here are running their software without a license, and choose to not do anything about it, then I think it would be a good thing for him to actually say so, since it actually would strengthen his case against Mentec, if it ever came to that. By playing the "it's not something we're willing to discuss in public" is just idle talk, since it's in fact more supporting of what I'm saying than what he is. But I'll leave it here. No point in arguing. Everyone have to decide for them self. I do notice that noone have yet publicly admitted to violating Mentecs IP rights. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From carol at compurex.com Wed May 9 12:18:03 2007 From: carol at compurex.com (Carol Audlee) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 13:18:03 -0400 Subject: DEC & HP available - a trip to an infrequented collecting spot in Message-ID: <26A4B56679A15C4BA041A64EE91E1091DCA9A4@w2003server.pdc.compurex.com> Hi- I am looking to purchase older DEC computer hardware. Is this something you have available for sale? Appreciate it. Carol Carol Audlee Director of Business Development Compurex Systems 35 Eastman St. S. Easton, MA 02375 508.230.3700 x250 800.426.5499 x250 508.238.8250 fax www.compurex.com AOL IM: CompurexCarol Independent reseller of Cisco/Compaq/DEC/HP/Nortel/Sun computer systems and peripherals since 1987. This message may contain information that is confidential and or protected by law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are herby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or communication of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete the message. Please note that although we will take all commercially reasonable efforts to prevent viruses from being transmitted from our systems, it is the responsibility of the recipient to check for and prevent adverse action by viruses on its own systems. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 13:52:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:52:36 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: >> Actually, they're pretty common from what I have seen, >> but then again, I work with lots of systems that use >> them. Those are Exabyte cartridges - you need to find >> an Exabyte drive. > > Aha... interesting. I'll give local Freecycle a prod and see if anyone > has one nearby that I can borrow. What with Andy's post and another > offer off-list I expect I can attempt a read at some point, anyway! Well, progress - I now have on the desk a "TTi 8510", which I'm hoping is compatible with the tapes I have. Three questions: 1) Is this drive single-ended SCSI or differential? The backplate doesn't hint one way or the other. A poke around a few reseller sites seems to hint that it's a SE drive, but it would be nice to confirm that with someone who has one before I plug it into a machine and toast the SCSI bus :-) 2) I even found a cleaning tape. Is there anything special which needs to be done to use it - or can just insert the cleaning tape into the drive and expect it to do its stuff automatically? 3) Do these drives ever suffer from "roller goo" like QIC drives? i.e. is it sensible for me to whip the cover off and do a visual inspection before even trying the cleaning tape? (That's perhaps a rhetorical question... I normally do visual inspections on stuff before blindly trying to use them. I'm just feeling lazy :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 13:56:29 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:56:29 -0500 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4642195D.9050507@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Caroline wrote: > Perhaps its from one of these an Olivetti BCS2030 see > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=41469 Hmm, could well be! I don't recall ever seeing a system like that at the museum (where I unearthed these disks) - but it's just possible that I've perpetually missed it in storage somewhere! More likely the disks actually came "by mistake" in the box of paper that I found them amongst, though. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 9 14:10:28 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 20:10:28 +0100 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <4642145F.3010805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> <4642145F.3010805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Here is a few pics of the crib sheets for the operator and the cards. It gives you an idea of the use of the magnetic strips, There is one doc at home iirc and will get pics of the machine one day Dave Caroline From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 9 14:11:32 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 20:11:32 +0100 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <4642145F.3010805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> <4642145F.3010805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: hehe try remembering to give the url www.archivist.info/computers/audit5.html Dave Caroline From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 9 14:19:13 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 12:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) In-Reply-To: <4641DB80.7080709@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at May 09, 2007 04:32:32 PM Message-ID: <200705091919.l49JJDJr023029@onyx.spiritone.com> > To answer a few details in short. > > PDP-11 licenses (alteast RSX, and I believe all of them) are bound to a > specific customer. So they don't transfer along with the hardware. > > However, DEC did have a license transfer program. It wasn't expensive, > and I used it at my end back when DEC still existed. > I think it was still possible to transfer licenses after Mentec bought > the software and DEC still sold it. What the exact status of this is > right now, I don't know. Haven't asked. As I understand it, if you can prove the machine is licensed, and that you have a right to that license you can have it transfered. The trick is proving the machine is licensed as in many/most cases the necessary paperwork has been lost and likely no longer exists. > As for Jay West and Jerome Fine's claims that it's all right just > because Mentec haven't set any lawyers on their backs must stand for > them. I don't think it's okay, and furthermore, I don't think their > claims that it's OK because they think that Mentec knows a lot of things > will hold much water if it went to court. But that's just my thoughts. > And yes, I do speak with Mentec on business matters from time to time, > so I'm not totally unaware of what they do. The claims are just plain foolish and dangerous. They don't do anyone any good, and they could do harm. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 14:26:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 12:26:07 -0700 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4641BDDF.25300.3751CE7E@cclist.sydex.com> You see these things on eBay (there's a large packet of them on eBay Italia as we speak. Meant for the not-otherwise-technically exciting Olivetti BCS 2000 series. Here's some photos of a BCS2035: http://tinyurl.com/yudxyf Late 1970's, I think. Not seen much in the US. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 9 14:33:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:33:56 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 13:26:15 -0500. <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > So...who has one? What's become of the remaining infrastructure? I > recently used a Windows Plato client to connect to some descendant of > the system, but I asssume even the back end was running on modern > hardware then, and not old Data General equipment. The infrastructure wasn't by Data General, it was by Control Data (CDC). UDel had a large PLATO installation. I recently enquired of the people still at UDel what happened to the terminals and I was told that they were all returned to Control Data, who presumably scrapped them. I think there is *one* PLATO terminal in the collection at the Computer History Museum. I'm not aware of anyone who has a CDC Cyber series mainframe other than the CHM, which has one on display in "Visible Storage", but I don't think its the model that UDel had for PLATO (6600 or something like that?). Sadly, the terminals could have been rejuvenated and put back into service had they survived, but Control Data apparently had a very harsh "return for destruction" policy with *all* its equipment, including the peripherals, so very little of it survives. Since I left UDel in 1986 I have not seen a PLATO terminal in person, in anyone's collection, or for sale online *ever*. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed May 9 14:44:13 2007 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:13 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4642248D.2060405@ubanproductions.com> I was thinking about this the other day while mowing the yard (I tend to do random thinking while doing mindless work) and came to the conclusion that the internet today provides most of what Plato provided us those endless years ago, the most notable exception being real time response. Part of my realization was the result of my 10 year old sun having a friend over and the two of them were each on a computer, connected to an online game website where they were interacting with numerous other online gamers... --tom Jason T wrote: > When contemplating spending some fairly serious coin on that IBM > system earlier this week, a friend asked "which systems/machines out > there would you pay 'real' money for?" Since I'm not a Big Iron > collector, and I'm used to spending no more than $10-20 on any given > piece, that's a fair question for me. Maybe a Symbolics Lisp machine. > Maybe an original Sun machine, or even a 2-series. A Xerox Alto. > Historical stuff like that. Then I remembered when my high school > class took a trip down to the U of I at Champaign-Urbana for > "Engineering Open House" and I was sat in front of this monstrous > wooden terminal with beguiling orange vector graphics. Only many > years later did I learn what it was, and where it fit in the timeline > of computing (thanks in part to Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib/Dream > Machines" books.) > > So...who has one? What's become of the remaining infrastructure? I > recently used a Windows Plato client to connect to some descendant of > the system, but I asssume even the back end was running on modern > hardware then, and not old Data General equipment. > > -j > From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 15:05:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:05:59 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk>, <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 13:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > 1) Is this drive single-ended SCSI or differential? The backplate > doesn't hint one way or the other. A poke around a few reseller sites > seems to hint that it's a SE drive, but it would be nice to confirm > that with someone who has one before I plug it into a machine and > toast the SCSI bus :-) If it's like the 8510 that I had, it's SE--note that it's not auto- terminate (you'll need a SCSI terminator). In my eperience, the drive was buggy and TTi itself is defunct. You may have better luck with a genuine Exabyte 8500. The TTi unit isn't quite old enough to suffer from roller goo yet, so it's hard to say if it will eventually. Tell ya what, stick it in a room with one of those electronic air ionizers and get back to us in 6 months.. :) Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 9 15:08:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:08:32 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 12:19:13 -0700. <200705091919.l49JJDJr023029@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200705091919.l49JJDJr023029 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > As I understand it, if you can prove the machine is licensed, and that you > have a right to that license you can have it transfered. The trick is > proving the machine is licensed as in many/most cases the necessary > paperwork has been lost and likely no longer exists. Just out of curiosity, what sort of paperwork would you need to produce? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 9 15:22:48 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 15:22:48 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) References: <200705091919.l49JJDJr023029@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00d001c79277$cfa48e20$6600a8c0@BILLING> Zane wrote... > As I understand it, if you can prove the machine is licensed, and that you > have a right to that license you can have it transfered. The trick is > proving the machine is licensed as in many/most cases the necessary > paperwork has been lost and likely no longer exists. The problem I have with the above is that it infers an absolute - that if.... 1) "you can prove the machine is licensed" and 2) "you {can prove that} you have a right to that license" you can then have it transferred. As a general statement of software licensing that is certainly false. I'm sure I can find 100's of examples of software packages where the above is not true. You have to keep in mind that the above may be true for a specific license, at a specific date/time, depending on the mood of whoever is on the licensor side of the discussion. We need to be careful that the above isn't represented as "this is how it usually works". Johnny wrote... >> As for Jay West and Jerome Fine's claims that it's all right just >> because Mentec haven't set any lawyers on their backs must stand for >> them. That is taking what I was saying out of context. I was speaking in general terms that from a legal standpoint a company that does not enforce it's licenses is in jeopardy of having difficulty enforcing those licenses in the future. That is a simple fact of software law. It does not translate into "it's ok, let's pirate". In the case of Mentec specifically, there is a lot more to the discussion than just that one point. I rather resent you saying that I feel it's OK to pirate software. With regards to Mentec, there are a lot more things involved than just saying "if they don't pursue it, it's ok". What I DID say was that a company that doesn't enforce their licenses consistently will have trouble doing so in the future. I did not make the leap of saying "it is ok to pirate mentec software". That is something you injected into the discussion. > The claims are just plain foolish and dangerous. They don't do anyone any > good, and they could do harm. No, what is just plain foolish and dangerous is how Johnny is taking what I said out of context and ascribing the modifications to me, and posting it publicly as if that was the full substance of my statements. Best regards, Jay West From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 9 15:35:03 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 9 May 2007 13:35:03 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk>, <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1178742903.464230770903f@secure.zipcon.net> TTi finally went belly-up? Quoting Chuck Guzis : > On 9 May 2007 at 13:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > 1) Is this drive single-ended SCSI or differential? The backplate > > doesn't hint one way or the other. A poke around a few reseller sites > > seems to hint that it's a SE drive, but it would be nice to confirm > > that with someone who has one before I plug it into a machine and > > toast the SCSI bus :-) > > If it's like the 8510 that I had, it's SE--note that it's not auto- > terminate (you'll need a SCSI terminator). In my eperience, the > drive was buggy and TTi itself is defunct. You may have better luck > with a genuine Exabyte 8500. > > The TTi unit isn't quite old enough to suffer from roller goo yet, so > it's hard to say if it will eventually. Tell ya what, stick it in a > room with one of those electronic air ionizers and get back to us in > 6 months.. :) > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 9 14:38:54 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:38:54 -0400 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's Message-ID: <0JHS00G9JH51OZH1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Classic Computers and LCD TV's > From: "dwight elvey" > Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 07:57:48 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > >>From: Allison >> >> > >> >Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's >> > From: "Zane H. Healy" >> > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> >Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into >> >something like this? >> > >> >http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port_tv&pscat2= >> > >> >I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would >>be >> >to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 >> >monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) >> > >> >Zane >> >>I forgot to add I've been on the hunt for a monochrome or color (not >>needed) >>for use instead of the rather old 9" Panasonic I monitor I use. I'm more >>interested in monitor (no tuner) and 12V operation. >> >Hi Allison >It seems like I saw someone else mention the monitors used in head >rest for cars. These mostly use S video or similar signals. >A few months back, I bought two screens, DVD player, two headphones, >video distribution amp, FM to radio and FM to headsets for a little over >$300. >This was on ebay. >Dwight > I'm thinking more like RS170 video and 30-50$.. The rest of that I don't need. ;) Seems anying that installs in the back of the headrest in my Toyota Pickup would be more amusing to the car following me (2 seater cab). My goal is to make some of my CMOS based systems more portable. As their power is low and at least two do video out but even a 12V monitor eats most of the current needed (around 1 amp) making battery operation difficult. Allison From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 9 15:43:38 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 9 May 2007 13:43:38 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk> <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1178743418.4642327acec4c@secure.zipcon.net> I have a TTI tape drive somewhere, it's got 2 8510's in it and an LCD display on it. looking in it before it was standard exabyte 8510's with their special controller board connected to them IIRC. Quoting Jules Richardson : > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Actually, they're pretty common from what I have seen, > >> but then again, I work with lots of systems that use > >> them. Those are Exabyte cartridges - you need to find > >> an Exabyte drive. > > > > Aha... interesting. I'll give local Freecycle a prod and see if anyone > > > has one nearby that I can borrow. What with Andy's post and another > > offer off-list I expect I can attempt a read at some point, anyway! > > Well, progress - I now have on the desk a "TTi 8510", which I'm hoping > is > compatible with the tapes I have. > > Three questions: > > 1) Is this drive single-ended SCSI or differential? The backplate > doesn't hint > one way or the other. A poke around a few reseller sites seems to hint > that > it's a SE drive, but it would be nice to confirm that with someone who > has one > before I plug it into a machine and toast the SCSI bus :-) > > 2) I even found a cleaning tape. Is there anything special which needs > to be > done to use it - or can just insert the cleaning tape into the drive and > > expect it to do its stuff automatically? > > 3) Do these drives ever suffer from "roller goo" like QIC drives? i.e. > is it > sensible for me to whip the cover off and do a visual inspection before > even > trying the cleaning tape? (That's perhaps a rhetorical question... I > normally > do visual inspections on stuff before blindly trying to use them. I'm > just > feeling lazy :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 15:30:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:30:21 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk>, <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46422F5D.5050901@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 May 2007 at 13:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> 1) Is this drive single-ended SCSI or differential? The backplate >> doesn't hint one way or the other. A poke around a few reseller sites >> seems to hint that it's a SE drive, but it would be nice to confirm >> that with someone who has one before I plug it into a machine and >> toast the SCSI bus :-) > > If it's like the 8510 that I had, it's SE Thanks... I really don't like SCSI things that don't say what sort of bus they need to be on! > --note that it's not auto- terminate (you'll need a SCSI terminator). Oh, I never use auto-termination if I can help it anyway. That way madness lies (or something :-) I suspect that relying on the hardware to figure the termination out is half the reason a lot of people have so many problems with SCSI - that or using sub-standard cables... > In my eperience, the drive was buggy Any recollection as to what sort of bugs? I don't need it to write any data, but I would rather it faithfully reproduced the data on the tapes* (rather than giving junk whilst appearing to work) *Although if they are in something like uncompressed tar then it'll be obvious whether it works or not. > and TTi itself is defunct. This is a vintage computing list - we're somewhat used to defunct around here! ;) > You may have better luck with a genuine Exabyte 8500. Well I'll see how it goes - doesn't hurt to try I suppose, providing the drive doesn't start spooling tape out of the air vents. OK, you convinced me. I'm pulling the lid and doing a visual check before anything else... > The TTi unit isn't quite old enough to suffer from roller goo yet I've only ever seen it on QIC drives, to be honest, not other tape transport technologies. Is it definitely an age-related thing (i.e. it'll hit *all* drives eventually, rather than being something related to the specific type of rubber used on the QIC drives)? cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 15:33:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:33:34 -0500 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <4641BDDF.25300.3751CE7E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> <4641BDDF.25300.3751CE7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4642301E.9070104@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You see these things on eBay (there's a large packet of them on eBay > Italia as we speak. Meant for the not-otherwise-technically exciting > Olivetti BCS 2000 series. Here's some photos of a BCS2035: > > http://tinyurl.com/yudxyf Hmm, that's a nice shade of blue, though! Such colourful casing's pretty rare for that sort of timeframe. We *definitely* don't have one of those, I would remember that. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 15:55:02 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:55:02 -0300 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <06cb01c7927c$fbada650$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the > information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the > N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. Please, put it on the web. Or send me and I'll put in www.tabajara-labs.com.br/techref From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 16:05:06 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 18:05:06 -0300 Subject: Brazilian collector troubles. Was:Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org><040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha><20070509025442.GB7160@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu><051d01c79208$98088f80$f0fea8c0@alpha> <6C5C93C1-F007-40E3-B0F7-26EE996FC861@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <06d301c7927d$c05ac550$f0fea8c0@alpha> Hi Dave! > International shipping is a big pain in the butt, overall. Customs > garbage, paperwork paperwork paperwork. Most people here avoid it for > that reason. I'm still working up the mental energy to ship you those > chips we talked about. :) I'm not in a hurry, although using the method I told you seems simple enough, I always buy chips from USA getting that via airmail ;o) > Well...I live in Florida, about two miles from the Gulf of Mexico...We > have some good beaches here too. BUT it seems you have the most > beautiful women in the world. I'd say that's a pretty big point in > Brasil's favor. :-) (first of all, please sorry me if I use any inappropriate terms on this message. Please advise me if I did. Remember english is not my maiden language) The brazilian girls are as beautiful and gorgeous as the american ones, or the japanese ones or the (hmmmm!) german ones. What matters are the "differences". Germans use to come to Brazil to marry black girls (a half-bred between white and black, which is called "mulata"). In Brazil they are very common, but very rare in Germany. So the germans get crazy with the black girls. Brazilians get crazy with the german girls. It is very rare to find a **natural** blonde girl with (beautiful!) blue eyes. And japanese girls are as beautiful! It is just a matter of "rareness" like our hobby!!! The Brazilian TK90X is **the same** computer as the Sinclair ZX Spectrum. Even the case is the same, but with a small (and better!) ROM containing the UDG2 char editor. But I'd love to have a speccy, just because **it is different**. In the same way, TK90X is a very common computer here, but which Speccy collector doesn't want to have one of these? Just because - as always - is DIFFERENT. Our passions are fueled by differences. The capability to have something that is different from usual, rare or expensive. There are lots of fast cars. A friend of mine had a Saveiro (google image for it, is a very small pick-up made in Brazil by VW) which had some 600HP (!!!) and in dragster racing always won against ferraris! No one want to pay R$ 70.000 to have a Saveiro modded for 600HP, but everyone wants a Ferrari that costs R$ 600-700.000. Because it is different. It is rare. It is expensive. The same happens with girls. The same happens with computers :o) So, don't think our girls (and rare computers) are better than yours, ours are just different! :o) Greetings from Brazil Alexandre (Which would love to date an american girl, they are beautiful!) From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 16:33:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:33:02 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <1178742903.464230770903f@secure.zipcon.net> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com>, <1178742903.464230770903f@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <4641DB9E.6702.37C60096@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 13:35, Geoff Reed wrote: > TTi finally went belly-up? Sort of. In the mid 90's, they changed their name to Xtran, then through a takeover that I don't exactly understand, were acquired by Tecmar (or a holding company thereof). Overland then acquired that around 2000. That's as close as I can remember it. I wonder if anyone at Overland would even remember TTi now. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 15:26:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:26:28 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4641CC04.17443.37890DEB@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 13:33, Richard wrote: > Sadly, the terminals could have been rejuvenated and put back into > service had they survived, but Control Data apparently had a very > harsh "return for destruction" policy with *all* its equipment, > including the peripherals, so very little of it survives. At one time CDC simply sold intact equipment for its scrap value to the usual dealers. What caused that to stop was the supposedly "scrapped" gear showing up at customer's sites. It dawned on CDC management that their scrap policy was having a negative effect on their bottom line. The word came down that ANY piece of gear leaving CDC was to be rendered to a condition that was unequivocally *scrap*. That meant that CE's spent their time taking sledgehammers to disk drives and reducing whole computer systems to dumpsterloads of mangled junk. Watching this happen was sickening, but I could understand the rationale. My best recollection was that this policy went into effect sometime around 1973-74, but Billy Petit could probably refresh my warped sense of the exact timeline. I wouldn't mind having one of the old plasma display Plato terminals, myself. It'd make a great night light. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 16:44:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:25 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46422F5D.5050901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com>, <46422F5D.5050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4641DE49.32003.37D069BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 15:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > Any recollection as to what sort of bugs? I don't need it to write any data, > but I would rather it faithfully reproduced the data on the tapes* (rather > than giving junk whilst appearing to work) My recollection is that there were numerous firmware bugs. We'd received the drive as a sample in order in hope that we'd endorse it as a drive to work with our software. It didn't work as expected, TTi fessed up to some firmware problems and we told them to get in touch with us when they got things ironed out and sent the drive back. Which is better than the trick that Datasonix pulled with its Pereos drive. They sent us a sample to evaluate. It took us about 2 hours to determine that it wasn't ready for prime time and shipped it back (although I probably still have the drivers for it). It was not only slow and unreliable, but it was brain-dead, requiring a driver that was something like 100K (MS-DOS) in size. Datasonix went ahead and told a customer that we'd approved it--and the customer bought 150 of the worthless things before they checked with us. > I've only ever seen it on QIC drives, to be honest, not other tape transport > technologies. Is it definitely an age-related thing (i.e. it'll hit *all* > drives eventually, rather than being something related to the specific type of > rubber used on the QIC drives)? Isn't most of the rubber used in QIC drives just neoprene? To me that says anything using it will eventually have goo problems. How about old printers with neoprene feed rollers? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 9 04:46:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 03:46:16 -0600 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <20070509011649.GA32171@brevard.conman.org> References: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> <20070509011649.GA32171@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <46419868.7030703@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini once stated: >> Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's >> function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. >> >> Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? > > I might be able to. I think there were a few others on this list that > were interested as well. My email is > -spc (no explicit 6-or-9 bit architecture experience, but plenty with > assembly ... ) Well I better give my email address too. bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 9 16:48:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:48:03 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 13:26:28 -0700. <4641CC04.17443.37890DEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4641CC04.17443.37890DEB at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > My best recollection was that this policy went into effect sometime > around 1973-74, but Billy Petit could probably refresh my warped > sense of the exact timeline. > > I wouldn't mind having one of the old plasma display Plato terminals, > myself. It'd make a great night light. By the time I was using PLATO in 1978, the policy would have been in full force :-(. The plasma terminals were nice, but I also liked the bitmap graphics terminals. For those, with PLATO, you could write code in "micro tutor" or "ututor" which you would load into the terminal and it would execute locally. Some of the best PLATO based games had all the display stuff written in ututor and the networking and game logic stuff was written in tutor and coordinated the different terminals. I never saw the insides of the terminal, but I imagine it was like looking into the inside of an HP 264x terminal -- a bus with cards and so-on, looking more like a PC than a typical terminal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Wed May 9 15:50:23 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:50:23 -0300 Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) Message-ID: <01C79262.A0D655C0@mse-d03> Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:32:32 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: Re: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) >As for Jay West and Jerome Fine's claims that it's all right just because Mentec haven't set any lawyers on their backs must stand for them. Eh? Funny, I don't recall either of them making those claims; in fact I thought they were pretty well saying the opposite, that it's not just simply "all right", and that this whole discussion was about how to get the issue resolved and do it legitimately. Maybe I need new glasses... -------------- >If Jay West happens to ...have proof that people here are running their software without a license, ... then I think it would be a good thing for him to actually say so... Eh again? He said that too? So you're suggesting what? _If_ there are such people and he has "proof" he should broadcast this over the Internet, right alongside the child molester sites? ------------- >I do notice that noone have yet publicly admitted to violating Mentecs IP rights Does this mean that you have proof that some people are? And if so, that they should shout it out over the Internet? Or what _do_ you mean, exactly? ------------ >No point in arguing. Agreed, but this is CCtalk after all... ;-) m From vrs at msn.com Wed May 9 16:52:20 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 14:52:20 -0700 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp><003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <06cb01c7927c$fbada650$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <062501c79284$528450d0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Alexandre Souza" >> Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the >> information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the >> N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. > > Please, put it on the web. Or send me and I'll put in > www.tabajara-labs.com.br/techref > For the moment, they still seem to be online at www.archivist.info/computers/8202.html. Vince From vrs at msn.com Wed May 9 17:02:37 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 15:02:37 -0700 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp><003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp><06cb01c7927c$fbada650$f0fea8c0@alpha> <062501c79284$528450d0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <063a01c79285$c18f5410$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Vincent Slyngstad" > From: "Alexandre Souza" >>> Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the >>> information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the >>> N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. >> >> Please, put it on the web. Or send me and I'll put in >> www.tabajara-labs.com.br/techref >> > > For the moment, they still seem to be online at > www.archivist.info/computers/8202.html. Just to be clear, though, they aren't mine, so you'll still want to get Dave's permission if you intend to redistribute them. Vince From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 9 17:04:02 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:04:02 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) References: <01C79262.A0D655C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <00ab01c79285$f6ea62d0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Johnny wrote.... >>No point in arguing. To which MH replied... > Agreed, but this is CCtalk after all... ;-) Correct. But I do feel obliged to point out that I have a bit less tolerance for the *complete* off-topicness that existed here not too long ago and will not allow that level of noise to return to the list. CCtalk or no ;) Jay From shumaker at att.net Wed May 9 17:16:09 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:16:09 -0700 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200705092216.l49MGMbc053828@keith.ezwind.net> Yes Those were used in a series of Olivetti "Word Processors" - basically smart typewriters - in 81-82 timeframe. They allowed you to save typed documents complete with embedded formatting to the disk for later printing/editing. Low end models stored what was typed. IIRC, the high end model has a small fluorescent character display of some.. 20 characters that would allow you to scroll through the doc without actually printing it. At 10:17 AM 5/9/2007, you wrote: >Rather an odd find today, tucked away in a box of printer paper: A >pair of "Olivetti Minidisks". The flexible disks are around 2" in >diameter, but curiously have no jacket whatsoever - just a cardboard >sleeve to protect them when not in use. > >I've never come across these before; any idea what system(s) they're >for? Were they something cheap and cheerful for some sort of word >processor machine? > >cheers > >Jules From go at ao.com Wed May 9 17:25:09 2007 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:25:09 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46424A45.1040100@ao.com> I managed to snag one of the plasma terminal modules (not the entire terminal - just the display guts with rear-projection screen) MANY years ago from Godbout. After acquiring it, I spend several weeks tracking down documentation and managed to obtain the manuals for the electrical and logic hookup, so "some day" I'm going to build me a terminal... >From recollection, I believe the display unit module was manufactured by a division of Corning. I'll dig up the docs and refresh my memory if anyone is interested. The module is about 12x12x8 inches, built mostly as a "square donut" with a recessed hole in the back where the rear-projection slide / reel machine would be placed. It's basically a 512x512 bit memory and is addressed digitally with a fairly simple parallel interface. What's kept me from powering it up is that it takes about four different (and some strange) voltages, one of which is about 180vdc for the plasma supply. Didn't want to power up until I had time to build supplies that conform to the specific requirements for slew and current limit. Didn't want "bad things" to happen on first power up. While a student programmer at Oregon State University MANY MANY years ago, I was involved in a project (never completed) that was to hook one or two of the terminals to our time-sharing system. Seemed to recall the "serial interface" level of the plato terminal required something like 18 bit "characters" sent TO the unit, with 12 bit "characters" coming FROM the unit. Was going to require some major work to force these through our 8 bit asynchronous frontend system. The "powers that be" decided it was too much effort and abandoned the project. -Gary From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 9 17:42:37 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:42:37 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 15:25:09 -0700. <46424A45.1040100@ao.com> Message-ID: In article <46424A45.1040100 at ao.com>, Gary Oliver writes: > I managed to snag one of the plasma terminal modules (not the entire > terminal - just the display guts with rear-projection screen) MANY years > ago from Godbout. After acquiring it, I spend several weeks tracking > down documentation and managed to obtain the manuals for the electrical > and logic hookup, so "some day" I'm going to build me a terminal... Any chance these can get scanned and uploaded to bitsavers? > [...] Seemed to recall > the "serial interface" level of the plato terminal required something > like 18 bit "characters" sent TO the unit, with 12 bit "characters" > coming FROM the unit. [...] Did the CDC machines use 6-bit characters in its raw form? I suspect that the PLATO stuff ganged up multiple CDC hardware characters. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 9 17:53:27 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 18:53:27 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <4641356B.7090206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Thanks to all for the offer of help. I did refer a couple group members to him and we'll see what happens. The "tinker-toys" reference reminds me of a line from Young Frankenstein...but I digress. On 5/8/07 10:43 PM, "woodelf" wrote: > Richard A. Cini wrote: >> Yes, odd indeed. It was like drinking from a fire hose last night. Anyway, >> the theory goes that the entire genome is coded in base triplets which >> encode only 64 proteins (6-bits). >> >> This "emulation" problem has been gnawing at him for over 10 years and he >> figures that now since the genome is fully mapped (although functions are >> still unknown), he can do some good. There has been lots of research, but >> any testing or whatever is still performed on live tissue. Why not emulate >> it? >> >> I didn't take down his entire curriculum vitae, but he's an EE that got into >> medicine (podiatry) and has a side interest in genetics (I guess). Hey, I >> read Scientific American, too, and I having a passing interest, but I'm not >> a man of medicine. >> >> Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's >> function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. >> >> Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? > > I could talk only as hobby type project, but for computer hardware what > is needed? Other what is EE? I don't think it is too hard to understand. > You don't need medicine for hardware - just think tinker-toys since the > basic level is still atomic structures. > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 9 17:59:01 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 18:59:01 -0400 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I looked there originally but they don't seem to offer the sound board at this point. They have a few parts, but that's it. No manuals or schematics that I can see, and no "support" link. On 5/9/07 7:50 AM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > On Tue, 8 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> All: >> >> I?ve done a bit of searching for this but can?t locate it. Does anyone >> have a scannable copy of the schematic for the Mockingboard sound board for >> the Apple II? > > The folks at GSE Reactive have revived the Mockingboard as a product. One > presumes they have the schematic available: > > http://www.gse-reactive.com/ > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 18:11:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:11:03 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4641F297.18790.381FBA6A@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 16:42, Richard wrote: > Did the CDC machines use 6-bit characters in its raw form? I suspect > that the PLATO stuff ganged up multiple CDC hardware characters. Yup. 6 bit display code (10 characters per CM word). Later, 12 bit codes were used to handle such niceties as lower case. (There were actually a couple of competing representational systems for the extended character set). A PP channel/word was 12 bit; PPUs had an 18 bit accumulator, however. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 9 18:43:39 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 18:43:39 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <4641CC04.17443.37890DEB@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <4641CC04.17443.37890DEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46425CAB.9010105@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Watching this happen was sickening, but I could understand the > rationale. I can't. Why didn't they just resell the units? Couldn't they have gotten more than one sale from the same piece of hardware? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 9 19:01:28 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 9 May 2007 17:01:28 -0700 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1178755288.464260d8c28fb@secure.zipcon.net> bill garber? at www.garberstreet.com used to have a GIF of the mockingboard schematics available on his site. you might want to see if you can contact him and see if he still has the image. Quoting "Richard A. Cini" : > I looked there originally but they don't seem to offer the sound board > at > this point. They have a few parts, but that's it. No manuals or > schematics > that I can see, and no "support" link. > > > On 5/9/07 7:50 AM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > > > On Tue, 8 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > > >> All: > >> > >> I?ve done a bit of searching for this but can?t locate it. Does > anyone > >> have a scannable copy of the schematic for the Mockingboard sound > board for > >> the Apple II? > > > > The folks at GSE Reactive have revived the Mockingboard as a product. > One > > presumes they have the schematic available: > > > > http://www.gse-reactive.com/ > > > > > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 9 19:07:15 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: from Richard at "May 9, 7 03:48:03 pm" Message-ID: <200705100007.l4A07FA5015950@floodgap.com> > The plasma terminals were nice, but I also liked the bitmap graphics > terminals. For those, with PLATO, you could write code in "micro > tutor" or "ututor" which you would load into the terminal and it would > execute locally. Some of the best PLATO based games had all the > display stuff written in ututor and the networking and game logic > stuff was written in tutor and coordinated the different terminals. What was that, a mini-programming language? Was it the internal machine language of the terminal itself (being fairly ignorant of the architecture), or a microcode, or ... ? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Good day for heavy drinking. Start spiking the office water cooler. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 19:11:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 17:11:04 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <46425CAB.9010105@oldskool.org> References: , <46425CAB.9010105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <464200A8.15368.3856AB49@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 18:43, Jim Leonard wrote: > I can't. Why didn't they just resell the units? Couldn't they have > gotten more than one sale from the same piece of hardware? I can think of a couple of good reasons. First, stuff that got scrapped was old (discontinued) product. What would be the point of selling an obsolete 6603 (Bryant vertical disk drive) when you could sell the same customer a much newer and faster 808 drive? Does GM want to sell you a 1975 Chevette if they can sell you a 2007 Cobalt just as easily? Second, much of the equipment was leased, not purchased. Why make it possible for a customer to purchase an old piece of equipment when you can lease a nice new unit to him? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 18:34:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 00:34:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <20070508201209.C48012@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 8, 7 08:14:03 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 8 May 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Mmmmm.... wet string. > > You might need to change the wetting agent to handle colder climates. Mercury ? -tony From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 9 19:29:03 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 20:29:03 -0400 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: <1178755288.464260d8c28fb@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: Geoff: I don't suppose you have an email for him? His Web site has absolutely no contact information on it other than his physical address. He has an FTP site, but no MB information that I can see. Rich On 5/9/07 8:01 PM, "Geoff Reed" wrote: > www.garberstreet.com Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From us21090 at yahoo.com Wed May 9 19:37:29 2007 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. Message-ID: <869379.80385.qm@web30802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Lots of good suggestions-- Thank you. And many are correct- what to keep depends on what I wish to do with 'em. Sounds like a familiar topic here! I leaning toward a rarer representative/useful machine- A packed II, I guess. I need to determine which cards will work in it and then what maxing it out means in a practical sense. That is, understanding the associated limitations (memory, speed, languages, etc.) I like the idea of a serial card (as a hope to interface with the current world), SCSI (to save on floppy wear and tear), etc, etc. Thanks again. Scott ----- Original Message ---- From: Scott Austin To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, May 6, 2007 4:58:39 PM Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. All, About a month ago I picked a nice stash from a freecycler wishing to clean out. The summary list: Partial Apple II, II+, IIe and lots of h/w accessories and software. The fuller list is at the end of this entry. I'm not a big collector (I have a Obtronix Apple Replica and Kim-1 (another 6502 SBC)). But I thought I'd piece together a nice representative Apple 2 and sell off the rest. I haven't tested anything yet. Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most capability, but the II is more significant. Question 2: Which accessories are significant to keep (you know, but hate to say it: "VERY R at RE!!!")? Some things may be rare, but I doubt I'd use them. For example, the Switch-A-Slot (see http://tinyurl.com/2m8b3e ) Thanks for any helpful suggestions! Scott Fuller lengthier list (my notes are shoddy in places) ***Systems*** Apple II MN/SN: A2A0016/A2S1-61847 * Manufacture Date (corner of mobo): 7928 * Missing Power supply * Missing Cover (aaargh!!) Apple II+ MN/SN: A2S1016/A2S2-102594 * Ram Card (CSE/KS??) * Disk ][ Interface card * Apple IIe MN/SN: A2S2064/A2S2-D45-055F * Disk ][ Interface card * Mouse interface * Mockingboard * Parallel Card - Precision S/W * RAM Works II ***Other Hardware*** Apple Disk ][ A2M0003 (Qty 3 older style, Qty 1 newer) Transware Accelerator Joystick Koala Pad Numeric Keypad IIe A2M2003 Synch Printer Interface card IRQ Manager - Berkeley Softworks Switch-A-Slot - South Calif. Research Group IEEE-488 Card MPC Peripherals AP-S10 SUP'RMOD VHF Converter Interactive Structres A/D Modem - Applied Engineering Datalink Floppy Drive Controller for IIe 3.5" Drive Disk ][ Interface Card CMS SCSI II Apple Super Serial Card II Apple IIe 80 Col/64K Memory Expansion Sequential Systems Ram80 Silentype Printer A2M0032 Hardrive in enclosure (I didn't open to get model, size) Apple Monitor (I didn't note the model) Commodore Monitor (I didn't note the model) ***Software*** Copy II Plus DOS 3.3 Basics, System Manual MousePaint ProDOS Start Smith's Adventure Construction Set Apple Fortran Apple Pascal GEOS - includes GEOFile, GEOCalc,... Merlin Pro Macro Assembler IIe, IIc No Slot Clock more (if I remember correctly) ***Software on Cassette*** Mastermind Apple Lis'ner, Apple talker RamTest Forte' Music Dynacomp - Poker Party, Teacher's Pet, Games Pack Renumber/Append, Alignment Test Tone MicroUsers Software Exchange (Baltimore) - UDraw, Music Box Apple - Phone List, Brian's Theme Apple - Hopalong Cassidy, Lemonade Apple - Penny Arcade, Finance 1 Speakeasy Bulls & Bears Avalon MicroComp Game - Computer Baseball Strategy ***Books*** A Guide to Programming in AppleSoft (2nd Ed) Apple II Basic Manual, Ref Manual DOS Manual (DOS3.3, I think) SuperSerial Card AppleSoft Basic Programming Reference Manual Apple Machine Language (Don and Kurt Inman) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed May 9 19:41:28 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 20:41:28 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> Allison wrote: >> >> On 5/8/07, Allison wrote: >> >>> The RQDX1/2 are the same board and mostly interchageable depending on >>> firmware rev. It's a Quad width board. >>> >> What are the essential differences between an RQDX1 and RQDX2? >> AFAICR, the RQDX1 doesn't pass grant below it so it *must* be the last >> board on the bus, but the RQDX2 doesn't have that limitation; and, the >> RQDX2, I think, knows about one or two more drives than the RQDX1. a) >> is that correct? and b) is that all? >> >> >> -ethan >> > > They looks the same but the handle has a different rev. The real differences > are bug fixes. Essentially the RQDX2 is a bugfixed RQDX1 with later firmware > that is aware of a larger (at that time) assortment of drives. In the real > world of MSPC controllers RQDX3 is most desireable and RQDX1 the least. > > FYI: some flavors of RQDX1/2 didn't pass interrupt grant and MUST be the last > card in the chain. > > > > The one piece I haven't figured out from this discussion yet, is... Is the Pro/350 identical to an RQDX1, RQDX2, or RQDX3 ? From the discussion, I'd presume 1 or 2. Another Q, does the entire PDP-11 based PRO series all use the same MFM drive controller and have the same drive size limitations, etc ? I have a PRO380 that came w/o a hard drive... I have some MFM hard drives... so would be good to know 'all about it' before I being playing (when I can get to it :-( ). On a side note, anyone got POS or other OS diskette images for the PRO ? Thanks, -- Curt From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 9 20:07:21 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 9 May 2007 18:07:21 -0700 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1178759241.464270493c4b1@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting "Richard A. Cini" : > Geoff: > > I don't suppose you have an email for him? His Web site has absolutely > no > contact information on it other than his physical address. He has an > FTP > site, but no MB information that I can see. > > Rich > > the email address listed on the page http://mailgate.dada.net/comp/comp.sys.apple2/msg26586.html willy46pa @ comcast DOT net it's form 2004, but it's the best i have. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 9 20:03:03 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 21:03:03 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On 5/9/07, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > The one piece I haven't figured out from this discussion yet, is... > > Is the Pro/350 identical to an RQDX1, RQDX2, or RQDX3 ? > > From the discussion, I'd presume 1 or 2. That seems likely. The issue at hand, of course, is the low-level format. I do not think the Pro controller is format-compatible with the RQDX3, but it might be with the RQDX1/2, from what I'm reading in this thread. > Another Q, does the entire PDP-11 based PRO series all use the same > MFM drive controller and have the same drive size limitations, etc ? AFAIK, there was only ever one model of Pro MFM controller, which shipped with the Pro/350 and the Pro/380. The Pro/325 shipped floppy-only and I think had a weaker PSU than the Pro/350, so, presumably, you could replace/upgrade the PSU or power a hard drive from an external PSU. > I have a PRO380 that came w/o a hard drive... I have some MFM hard > drives... so would be good to know 'all about it' before I being playing > (when I can get to it :-( ). Indeed. I have some Pro stuff I'd love to be able to get to - been on the pile for a long time now. > On a side note, anyone got POS or other OS diskette images for the PRO ? http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ -ethan From mmaginnis at gmail.com Wed May 9 20:03:09 2007 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 19:03:09 -0600 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46426F4D.4040707@gmail.com> Henry (GSE-Reactive's proprietor) can be reached at: hscourbis at gse-reactive.com General support: support at gse-reactive.com - Mike Richard A. Cini wrote: > I looked there originally but they don't seem to offer the sound board at > this point. They have a few parts, but that's it. No manuals or schematics > that I can see, and no "support" link. > > > On 5/9/07 7:50 AM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > >> On Tue, 8 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: >> >>> All: >>> >>> I?ve done a bit of searching for this but can?t locate it. Does anyone >>> have a scannable copy of the schematic for the Mockingboard sound board for >>> the Apple II? >> The folks at GSE Reactive have revived the Mockingboard as a product. One >> presumes they have the schematic available: >> >> http://www.gse-reactive.com/ >> >> > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > > From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed May 9 20:35:03 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:35:03 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <464276C7.2080308@nktelco.net> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Is the Pro/350 identical to an RQDX1, RQDX2, or RQDX3 ? > > From the discussion, I'd presume 1 or 2. > I think that the Pro350 and Pro380 hard disk controller is uniquely its own. It may share a low level format with the RQDX2, but I don't think it shares all the sophistication of the RQDX2 or the limitations of drive compatibility. I have an RD32 that I just formatted with an RQDX3 last week. I am going to get my Pro380 out and see what happens. I will probably do this with RT11 (although I will definitely feel guilty about it.) I have to make up some patch cables for the monitor and keyboard first. I just got a NEC Multisync that can do 15.75kHz. -chuck From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 9 20:50:19 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:50:19 -0400 Subject: Old version of Excel for the Mac needed Message-ID: All: I?m trying to convert some old Mac Excel files I found from college which I think are Excel version 1 files. I have Office 4 for the Mac that I run in Basilisk (under System 7.5.3), but it can?t open the files I have. So, I fired up Mini vMac Plus (with System 7) and tried to run Excel but I get error ?605 which I think is ?memory full? (or insufficient memory). The Mini vMac Plus configuration has 4mb of RAM (with about 3mb free), which should be enough, but I guess not. So, I was wondering if someone has a copy of a slightly later version of Excel (later than 1.0 but before 4.5.2) that can run on a IIci (in Basilisk) that one would be willing to make a DSK/HFV image of? Alternatively, if someone had a copy of the ROM for the Mac SE, I could try that version of Mini vMac. Thanks in advance. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 9 21:23:19 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 03:23:19 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk><46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <011c01c792aa$2e248770$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... > > USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. More like: a) first find a machine that actually HAS USB ports, b) try to find drivers, c) give up because i) drivers don't exist, ii) if they do they're so buggy as to be unusable.... USB = a mind bogglingly *CRAP* solution looking for a problem - aka "*USELESS* SERIAL BODGE". > SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace >cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace >terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining >in various combinations, give up, go home. I had similar problems initially because I simply didn't understand SCSI/had some badly behaved early hard drives. Since I learnt how SCSI works I've had not one single problem; it all works automagically. > You're not as new as I am - I don't even HAVE an 8" drive.... Anyway, to the point of this email. If you can arrange for collection from Birmingham I have a pair of 8" drives you can have (they're far too heavy/bulky to post). TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 9 21:42:31 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 03:42:31 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk><46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <012d01c792ac$dbc5ec00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....But USB has been flaky and an incompatibility nightmare. (The >latter being exactly what hardware makers want, of course, because >it sells *new* hardware.) Amen to that. The biggest problem I've had, outside of (the *VAST* majority of) USB drivers which were so buggy as to cause my machine to BSOD as soon as I tried to use the device, is that every time you change/upgrade your OS you need to wait for the hardware manufacturer to release updated drivers....in most cases I've seen these "updated" drivers provide just the bare minimum of functionality in order to "persuade" you to buy a newer device. HP are a prime example, the 64-bit drivers for my printer/scanner/copier only allow the use of the unit as a printer....and a monochrome, text only one at that! :-( > And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more backwards-compatible.... >....SCSI goes back to the '80s - and, what's more, it's *compatible* all >the way back to the '80s.... Quite. The only compatibility problems I've ever had with SCSI were caused by a couple of 5.25" full height hard drives which refuse to work if *ANYTHING* else is connected to the SCSI bus at the same time (one is a Siemens drive, the other a Fujitsu - I still have them, LOL). Other than that I've always found SCSI to be quite wonderful.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 21:52:55 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 23:52:55 -0300 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: Message-ID: <077401c792ae$f628eaf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Talking'bout SCSI, see that http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/ee476/FinalProjects/s2001/sjk26/Default.htm I'll take a nice look how this interfacing was done, there are much to learn here! :oD From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 9 22:02:38 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:02:38 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <013801c792af$ac699080$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....Most of the problems I've had were with USB devices >plugged into the front USB ports - because of the length >(and poor quality) of the cable inside the machine, they'd >work at 12Mbit for a flashdrive, but as soon as you go up to >480Mbit (especially with something like a scanner), the data >just gets mangled. The biggest problem I've found with front mounted ports is that the USB standard is so brain dead that if you plug in a USB2.0 device into such a port, and the cable quality is bad, the damn thing refuses to fall back to USB1 data rates when it fails to communicate at USB2 rates. So you end up with a non-working, "unidentified" device. :-( > 99% of the problems I've had with USB could be traced back to bad >grounding, bad cable or a combination of the two. 100% of the problems I've had with USB stem from the bad design of the interface.... Can't you tell I just *LOVE* USB? ;-) > The main reason I'm using USB is speed.... If that's your main reason for using USB then you really should consider using FireWire instead. I recall reading up on FireWire vs USB a few years ago before I standardised on FireWire. Despite being marginally slower in terms of bit rate, FireWire offers something like 20% more throughput than USB2. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 9 22:06:06 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:06:06 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> >....USB really *is* plug-and-play. LMAO! Maybe in some weird, parallel universe.... TTFN - Pete. From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed May 9 22:08:14 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 23:08:14 -0400 Subject: Info sought In-Reply-To: <200705092114.l49LDPsA051510@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705092114.l49LDPsA051510@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200705092308.14398.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Wednesday 09 May 2007 05:14:11 pm cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: --- Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hey all, > > Anybody familiar with a person called Don Crowther (Maynard, Mass.) > His ebay handle is 'doncrow'. > > I bought an item from him and up to know he did not respond to > 2 inquiries for follow up. > > Thanks, > > Ed I bought a few things from him also recently. No issues at all. -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 9 22:16:21 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:16:21 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May8, 7 09:19:14 pm, <4640BF2E.11117.336EE8EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <017401c792b1$95b37020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Well, if folks don't really care for USB, how about 802.3u? Best idea yet. I use the Ethernet port on my Rio Karma all the time in preference to the lousy USB2 interface also present on the device (I don't even know if the USB port on the ting works!). Now, if I could just get a working replacement 1.8" hard drive for it....bl**dy Hitachi Deathstars (they're the only thing I hate more than USB, LOL). :-( TTFN - Pete. From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 9 22:27:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:27:32 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 17:07:15 -0700. <200705100007.l4A07FA5015950@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <200705100007.l4A07FA5015950 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > > The plasma terminals were nice, but I also liked the bitmap graphics > > terminals. For those, with PLATO, you could write code in "micro > > tutor" or "ututor" which you would load into the terminal and it would > > execute locally. Some of the best PLATO based games had all the > > display stuff written in ututor and the networking and game logic > > stuff was written in tutor and coordinated the different terminals. > > What was that, a mini-programming language? Was it the internal machine > language of the terminal itself (being fairly ignorant of the architecture), > or a microcode, or ... ? In the PLATO system, you wrote software in a language specifically designed for the computer assisted instruction environment of PLATO. The language was called "tutor". A very brief entry about it is on wikipedia: . A book that describes the tutor language in detail is here: . What I remember about "micro tutor" was that it was the same as the tutor language, with restrictions. IIRC, there was a size restriction and the syntax was also restricted in the sense that not all of the tutor commands were supported. I seem to remember that the terminal housed a Z80 inside and somehow the tutor language was being interpreted by the Z80 code or cross-compiled to native Z80 instructions. I never did know which, but I know you could load code directly into the terminal by writing it in ututor and loading it through the main PLATO system. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 9 22:32:46 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 23:32:46 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <013801c792af$ac699080$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <013801c792af$ac699080$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4642925E.9080209@gmail.com> Ensor wrote: > I recall reading up on FireWire vs USB a few years ago before I > standardised on FireWire. Despite being marginally slower in terms of > bit rate, FireWire offers something like 20% more throughput than USB2. Plus, there's always Firewire 800. I have a FW800 hard disk array. It's fast. Very fast. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 9 22:45:58 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:45:58 +0100 Subject: Old version of Excel for the Mac needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0705092045n7a08b24fvba24308fcd6108d5@mail.gmail.com> On 10/05/07, Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I?m trying to convert some old Mac Excel files I found from college > which I think are Excel version 1 files. I have Office 4 for the Mac that I > run in Basilisk (under System 7.5.3), but it can?t open the files I have. > So, I fired up Mini vMac Plus (with System 7) and tried to run Excel but I > get error ?605 which I think is ?memory full? (or insufficient memory). The > Mini vMac Plus configuration has 4mb of RAM (with about 3mb free), which > should be enough, but I guess not. > > So, I was wondering if someone has a copy of a slightly later version of > Excel (later than 1.0 but before 4.5.2) that can run on a IIci (in Basilisk) > that one would be willing to make a DSK/HFV image of? Alternatively, if > someone had a copy of the ROM for the Mac SE, I could try that version of > Mini vMac. You might try asking on LowEndMac's VintageMac mailing list. If anywhere, that's where you're likely to find someone... -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Mob: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From go at ao.com Wed May 9 23:46:30 2007 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:46:30 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4642A3A6.5060602@ao.com> Richard wrote: > Any chance these can get scanned and uploaded to bitsavers? > I thought the same thing after I wrote my message. I would be happy to send the manuals to Al. I need to find them and there are a few boxes to go through. As soon as I locate them I'll contact him and arrange to send. -Gary From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 10 00:36:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 01:36:12 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> On May 8, 2007, at 11:38 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> This is a fantastic way to do things like this...If more software >> were developed in this manner, I'd have torn out a lot less hair by >> now. > > I think this is why I can't stand to work for a company that develops > software (as I had in the past). Too many cut corners, assuming > 100% of > their users are idiots, and trying to develop code by piling more and > more crap onto their old code base. > > I'm really, REALLY glad thatI don't work for that place anymore, and I > work soemwhere that sysadmins actually write code, debug OSes, and are > encouraged to make things clean and reusable, and avoid hacks. > > Oddly enough, since we have the source code to the commercial HSM at > work, I'm pretty sure that we know how it works (and can debug it) > better than the current vendor can (few, if any, of the original > programmers for the code still work on it, as the software has gone > through quite a few corporate acquisitions). > > In fact, I can't rememeber a single bug report that we've submitted in > the past year or so, which we haven't figured out the fix for before > EM^Wthe vendor got back to us with any sort of usable workaround. Yep. That sort of crap is why I abandoned almost all commercial software. It's just not worth fighting with companies whose primary motivation is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 10 00:48:42 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 01:48:42 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> In fact, I can't rememeber a single bug report that we've submitted in >> the past year or so, which we haven't figured out the fix for before >> EM^Wthe vendor got back to us with any sort of usable workaround. > > Yep. That sort of crap is why I abandoned almost all commercial > software. It's just not worth fighting with companies whose primary > motivation is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html Section on "Robin Hood" and "Friar Tuck". Customers getting ignored can lead to interesting happenings. Peace... Sridhar From nicholas.ward at cs.tcd.ie Wed May 9 16:57:21 2007 From: nicholas.ward at cs.tcd.ie (nicholas ward) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 22:57:21 +0100 Subject: imac g3 power supply replacement enquiry from belfast Message-ID: <1A41F208-DC56-4DBE-98E6-C4B51401179E@cs.tcd.ie> Hi Brad, I came across a post you had regarding running an imac with a 24VAC powersupply. I was wondering if you had any success with this? Im in a similar situation and would rather not dump the working DCB if i can supply what it requires. Many thanks for any info you might have, All the best Nicky From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 10 02:00:13 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 03:00:13 -0400 Subject: Info sought In-Reply-To: <19875.88.211.153.27.1178731268.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <19875.88.211.153.27.1178731268.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <7728B21C-7DFF-4E06-A855-482F160BE80A@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Anybody familiar with a person called Don Crowther (Maynard, Mass.) > His ebay handle is 'doncrow'. > > I bought an item from him and up to know he did not respond to > 2 inquiries for follow up. I don't know him personally, but I have purchased several items from him. I've not dealt with him recently, however. He has always treated me well. Perhaps he is having personal difficulties; I suggest giving him some time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 02:25:06 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:25:06 +0100 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <0JHQ00JTCX21RZ9R@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4642C8D2.7050002@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/05/2007 13:44, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/8/07, Allison wrote: >> The RQDX1/2 are the same board and mostly interchageable depending on >> firmware rev. It's a Quad width board. > > What are the essential differences between an RQDX1 and RQDX2? > AFAICR, the RQDX1 doesn't pass grant below it so it *must* be the last > board on the bus, but the RQDX2 doesn't have that limitation; and, the > RQDX2, I think, knows about one or two more drives than the RQDX1. a) > is that correct? and b) is that all? Correct, and as far as I remember, that's about all a user will see, bar some tweaks to the firmware for bug fixes or efficiency. According to the DEC docs, an RQDX1 can only support 2 hard drives whereas an RQDX2 can support 4, but I suspect (never tried) that's a firmware issue. An RQDX2 has one or two resistors and a diode (maybe one or two other bits) that the RQDX1 doesn't have, in the top right corner of the board. Of course if it's a genuine RQDX2 it should also have -YB on the handle. The firmware (from a user, or perhaps I should say OS or CPU, point of view) is in two parts, one part being the MSCP-related stuff and the other part being diagnostics, which are used for things like formatting (there's no formatter program built in but it's the DUP routines that are used by the XXDP formatter), bad block replacement and determining drive sizes etc. The RQDX1/2 have the drive geometry tables, used when the drive is online, in the card firmware not on the drive, and they're used to do a series of sniffer tests when the systems starts, which is why you can't just use any random drive with them. Some versions even do odd checks for RX50s (like flipping the side select to see if it alters the state of Trk00, and checking what happens to READY when you toggle MotorOn). There are four main versions of the firmware for RQDX1/2 and they support different drives: 23-238/239 V7.0 for RQDX1 supports RX50, RD51 23-264/256 V8.0 for RQDX1 reliablity bugfixes 23-042/043 V9.0 for RQDX1 adds RD52 support 23-172/173 V9.0E for RQDX1 bug fixes for reliability 23-178/179 V10.0D RQDX2 adds RD53 support 23-188/189 V10.0E RQDX2 bug fixes I'm fairly sure V10.0 works in an RQDX1 despite being intended for the later revision, because I think one of mine is running like that. IIRC V9.0E also added support for some additional drive makes for the RD52, by altering the sniffer boot. If you change the firmware for a later revision, in some cases the controller will restructure the RCT/FCT tables which are kept on the disk - these are the Replacement and Cacheing Table and the Format Control Table which essentially hold bad block replacement data and some data about the disk type - and then if you revert to older firmware, it won't understand the RCT/FCT and will refuse to put the drive online until it's reformatted. Apart from that, though, the actual formats are the same, or at least interchangeable. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu May 10 03:44:58 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:44:58 +0100 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet In-Reply-To: <063a01c79285$c18f5410$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <06cb01c7927c$fbada650$f0fea8c0@alpha> <062501c79284$528450d0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <063a01c79285$c18f5410$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: On 5/9/07, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Vincent Slyngstad" > > From: "Alexandre Souza" > >>> Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the > >>> information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the > >>> N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. > >> > >> Please, put it on the web. Or send me and I'll put in > >> www.tabajara-labs.com.br/techref > >> > > > > For the moment, they still seem to be online at > > www.archivist.info/computers/8202.html. yes carry on I shall leave them up > > Just to be clear, though, they aren't mine, so you'll still > want to get Dave's permission if you intend to redistribute > them. > > Vince > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 10 04:40:53 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:40:53 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> Ensor wrote: > > >....USB really *is* plug-and-play. > > LMAO! Maybe in some weird, parallel universe.... You plug it in, then you play with it for hours trying to get the darn thing to work. It seems to be the software side that nearly always causes me problems. Even under Linux it seems a total mess and any logfile output isn't particularly helpful in diagnosing problems (and of course under MS Windows you're lucky if you even *get* any logfile output when something goes wrong) My experience so far with USB cameras, mice, webcams, RS232 adapters and CF adapters has been decidedly not good... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 10 05:02:29 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 05:02:29 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <077401c792ae$f628eaf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <077401c792ae$f628eaf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4642EDB5.8000906@yahoo.co.uk> Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Talking'bout SCSI, see that > > http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/ee476/FinalProjects/s2001/sjk26/Default.htm > > > I'll take a nice look how this interfacing was done, there are much > to learn here! :oD Interfacing *to* a SCSI device should be fairly straightforward. It's a bit more complex to make something look like a SCSI device though due to the command set that needs to be supported. I'm not sure what the minimum that needs to be done is (beyond just read / write / inquiry / test-unit-ready / request-sense). Fun project, though. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 10 06:32:20 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 06:32:20 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070510063033.066f9fd8@mail> At 12:48 AM 5/10/2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html >Section on "Robin Hood" and "Friar Tuck". Customers getting ignored can lead to interesting happenings. It doesn't quite explain how the Moto engineers got those hacks into the Xerox development system, though... As for the story's aside about Windows viruses... don't get me started about spyware. - John From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 10 04:34:19 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:34:19 +0100 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 01:48 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 10 05:10:21 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:10:21 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> , <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1178791821.10123.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 04:40 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ensor wrote: > > > > >....USB really *is* plug-and-play. > > > > LMAO! Maybe in some weird, parallel universe.... > > You plug it in, then you play with it for hours trying to get the darn thing > to work. > > It seems to be the software side that nearly always causes me problems. Even > under Linux it seems a total mess and any logfile output isn't particularly > helpful in diagnosing problems (and of course under MS Windows you're lucky if > you even *get* any logfile output when something goes wrong) > > My experience so far with USB cameras, mice, webcams, RS232 adapters and CF > adapters has been decidedly not good... Sounds like you're just having bad luck. The only USB devices I've entirely failed to get working in Linux have been an el-cheapo DVB-T adaptor and a MOTU Midi Timepiece-type thing (can't remember the exact model). Everything else has worked perfectly, instantly. MIDI interfaces, audio interfaces, GPS receivers, cameras, disk drives, MP3 players, serial ports, parallel ports, and probably some other stuff I can't quite remember just now. The only thing I have had a degree of difficulty with was one GPS module that had a slightly odd serial-to-USB interface inside. It took a couple of minutes to hack up a suitable kernel module for that. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 10 05:11:46 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:11:46 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <012d01c792ac$dbc5ec00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> <012d01c792ac$dbc5ec00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <1178791906.10123.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 03:42 +0100, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >....But USB has been flaky and an incompatibility nightmare. (The > >latter being exactly what hardware makers want, of course, because > >it sells *new* hardware.) > > Amen to that. > > The biggest problem I've had, outside of (the *VAST* majority of) USB > drivers which were so buggy as to cause my machine to BSOD as soon as I Ah. BSOD. You must be using Windows, which doesn't support USB. Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 10 07:41:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:41:41 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. >> >> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? I'm seeing the messed-up characters too, and I'm also using a Mozilla browser. In my case, Seamonkey 1.1.1. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu May 10 07:46:03 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 13:46:03 +0100 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. Same here, with Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows 2000 SP4 and Firefox 2.0 on Fedora Core 6. > Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? So either the Docbook source or Docbook->XHTML converter he's using is FUBAR. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 10 07:47:11 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 05:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070510063033.066f9fd8@mail> from John Foust at "May 10, 7 06:32:20 am" Message-ID: <200705101247.l4AClBbP008070@floodgap.com> > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > Section on "Robin Hood" and "Friar Tuck". Customers getting ignored can > > lead to interesting happenings. > > It doesn't quite explain how the Moto engineers got those hacks > into the Xerox development system, though... I was trying to find a CP-V command set to see what it was like to use it, but all I can find on the web are references to this particular hack, or that "CP-V was another Xerox operating system succeeded by CP-6." I assume it was not a "Un*xy thing." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Good day for romance, but try a single person this time. ---------- From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 10 07:45:33 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:45:33 -0300 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp><003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <06cb01c7927c$fbada650$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <084201c79301$5f477f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the >> information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the >> N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. > Please, put it on the web. Or send me and I'll put in > www.tabajara-labs.com.br/techref Ops, wrong link, sorry! http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/eletronica/reftec/ I'll put the scanned pages there tonight! ;o) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 10 07:47:43 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 05:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> from Gordon JC Pearce at "May 10, 7 10:34:19 am" Message-ID: <200705101247.l4AClh92017808@floodgap.com> > > is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. > > > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. It's broken here too, Camino 1.0.4 on OS X 10.4.9. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why did the chicken cross the Moebius strip? To get to the other ... uh ... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 10 08:03:28 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:03:28 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/10/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > > > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > I'm seeing the messed-up characters too, and I'm also using a Mozilla > browser. In my case, Seamonkey 1.1.1. And Firefox 1.5.0.10 (Centos 4.4). So I doubt we are imagining it; the question is, does it look good under _any_ browser? -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 10 08:17:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:17:41 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46431B75.7040000@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm >> using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > Same here, with Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows 2000 SP4 and Firefox 2.0 on > Fedora Core 6. > >> Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? > > > > So either the Docbook source or Docbook->XHTML converter he's using is > FUBAR. I sent an email to Eric Raymond. We'll see what happens. Peace... Sridhar From feedle at feedle.net Thu May 10 08:23:32 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (Chris Sullivan) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 07:23:32 -0600 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <200705101247.l4AClh92017808@floodgap.com> References: <200705101247.l4AClh92017808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <9E203F3F-995B-4A86-A86C-5A53BCAB6EBD@feedle.net> On May 10, 2007, at 6:47 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. >>> >>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html >> >> Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? >> I'm >> using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > It's broken here too, Camino 1.0.4 on OS X 10.4.9. It's worth pointing out that it does this in Safari and Internet Explorer (Mac) as well. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 10 08:49:57 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:49:57 -0400 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> I could post up the source code for the Atari Plato cartridge, Vincent Wu was the coder and he worked directly with CDC on fully understanding how the actual Plato Terminals worked and wrote a pretty impressed compression system to take the 512x512 screens and get them down to 320X192 but also had a zoom feature to allow the Atari to scroll around and view the full 512x512 screen. Also he implemented all of the touchscreen routines to work with the Atari joysticks as well. While this is all 6500 compiler code and specifically for the Atari 800,XL/XE platform, it may offer some insight. Curt Richard wrote: > In article <200705100007.l4A07FA5015950 at floodgap.com>, > Cameron Kaiser writes: > > >>> The plasma terminals were nice, but I also liked the bitmap graphics >>> terminals. For those, with PLATO, you could write code in "micro >>> tutor" or "ututor" which you would load into the terminal and it would >>> execute locally. Some of the best PLATO based games had all the >>> display stuff written in ututor and the networking and game logic >>> stuff was written in tutor and coordinated the different terminals. >>> >> What was that, a mini-programming language? Was it the internal machine >> language of the terminal itself (being fairly ignorant of the architecture), >> or a microcode, or ... ? >> > > In the PLATO system, you wrote software in a language specifically > designed for the computer assisted instruction environment of PLATO. > The language was called "tutor". A very brief entry about it is on > wikipedia: . > > A book that describes the tutor language in detail is here: > . > > What I remember about "micro tutor" was that it was the same as the > tutor language, with restrictions. IIRC, there was a size restriction > and the syntax was also restricted in the sense that not all of the > tutor commands were supported. I seem to remember that the terminal > housed a Z80 inside and somehow the tutor language was being > interpreted by the Z80 code or cross-compiled to native Z80 > instructions. I never did know which, but I know you could load code > directly into the terminal by writing it in ututor and loading it > through the main PLATO system. > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 10 08:53:31 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <200705101359.JAA05855@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? > I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? Over here, with lynx, the page is reported as Charset: iso-8859-1 and I see things like The Meaning of ?Hack? Prev? Appendix? A.? Hacker Folklore ? Next The Meaning of ?Hack? (in case the list mangles that, here it is with ASCII replacements for the odd characters: The Meaning of @Hack@ Prev# Appendix# #.# Hacker Folklore # Next The Meaning of @Hack@ where @ replaces 8859-1 a-circumflex and # replaces A-circumflex.) This is not the usual Windows brokenness that calls for demoroniser (google it for those who don't know it and want to - but be sure to spell it, as I did, with -s- instead of -z-). It's also not the usual UTF-8 issue I've seen; when that strikes, I get two (or occasionally more) non-ASCII characters displayed for each non-ASCII character used by the source. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From marvin at west.net Thu May 10 09:21:31 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 07:21:31 -0700 Subject: Macintosh 128 Message-ID: <46432A6B.17091F69@west.net> Is there any way (besides taking it apart) to find out if my Macintosh 128 is original or if it has been modified/upgraded? It works just fine and has the original Picasso disks and plastic box with it. Thanks! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 09:24:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:24:30 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 21:46:30 -0700. <4642A3A6.5060602@ao.com> Message-ID: In article <4642A3A6.5060602 at ao.com>, Gary Oliver writes: > Richard wrote: > > Any chance these can get scanned and uploaded to bitsavers? > > > I thought the same thing after I wrote my message. I would be happy to > send the manuals to Al. I need to find them and there are a few boxes > to go through. As soon as I locate them I'll contact him and arrange to > send. If Al's overloaded, I can scan them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 10 09:57:55 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:57:55 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> References: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I could post up the source code for the Atari Plato cartridge, Vincent > Wu was the coder and he worked directly with CDC on fully > understanding how the actual Plato Terminals worked and wrote a pretty > impressed compression system to take the 512x512 screens and get them > down to 320X192 but also had a zoom feature to allow the Atari to > scroll around and view the full 512x512 screen. Also he > implemented all of the touchscreen routines to work with the Atari > joysticks as well. > > While this is all 6500 compiler code and specifically for the Atari > 800,XL/XE platform, it may offer some insight. When I was attending UIUC from 89-93, the PLATO terminals (the 80's era slanted boxes with the cream sides and the black-ish front) were still in heavy use in the Physics and Chem areas. However, since we were typical undergrads and waited until the last minute to finish the PLATO lessons, the terminals were always crowded, and Loomis Lab was locked up at 8 or so, meaning the terminals ere unavailable after that. During the 90-91 year, I stumbled upon a Commodore 64 software implementation of the base PLATO system, which could connect the servers using the university dialup (333-1100 or something). It was very impressive, as it ran at 2400 bps (tough to do on the C64) and rendered a good 320x200 representation of the 512-512 plasma graphics. It even replicated the orange-ish color of the screens. Sadly, I have not been able to locate the disk here since I left college. I'd love to locate a copy though. I did not know about the Atari cart, but I suspect the C64 version was probably some port of that code, since they shared a common CPU. It may have been a unlicensed port, since I've never seen an actual C64 pot listed anywhere. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 10 10:02:36 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "May 10, 7 09:57:55 am" Message-ID: <200705101502.l4AF2aEm014822@floodgap.com> > During the 90-91 year, I stumbled upon a Commodore 64 software > implementation of the base PLATO system, which could connect the servers > using the university dialup (333-1100 or something). It was very > impressive, as it ran at 2400 bps (tough to do on the C64) and rendered > a good 320x200 representation of the 512-512 plasma graphics. It even > replicated the orange-ish color of the screens. Wow. Now that would be cool. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The computer's running some sort of --- program!!! -- "Terminal", bad TV --- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 10 10:09:11 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: from Richard at "May 9, 7 09:27:32 pm" Message-ID: <200705101509.l4AF9B7t008074@floodgap.com> > > > The plasma terminals were nice, but I also liked the bitmap graphics > > > terminals. For those, with PLATO, you could write code in "micro > > > tutor" or "ututor" which you would load into the terminal and it would > > > execute locally. Some of the best PLATO based games had all the > > > display stuff written in ututor and the networking and game logic > > > stuff was written in tutor and coordinated the different terminals. > > > > What was that, a mini-programming language? Was it the internal machine > > language of the terminal itself (being fairly ignorant of the architecture), > > or a microcode, or ... ? > > In the PLATO system, you wrote software in a language specifically > designed for the computer assisted instruction environment of PLATO. > The language was called "tutor". A very brief entry about it is on > wikipedia: . > > A book that describes the tutor language in detail is here: > . Thanks for those links. The tutor description was fascinating. Alas, it doesn't seem to include the micro tutor limitations, but I'll look around. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'm so tongue-in-cheek I caanth talkh shhraayghth. ------------------------- From silent700 at gmail.com Thu May 10 10:19:59 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:19:59 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> References: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> On 5/10/07, Jim Brain wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > When I was attending UIUC from 89-93, the PLATO terminals (the 80's era > slanted boxes with the cream sides and the black-ish front) were still > in heavy use in the Physics and Chem areas. However, since we were Memory flood! I don't remember those there....but I don't think I had any classes that used them. I just remember them from the Engineering Open House days (which would have been a similar period, probably 88-90.) They could very well have been those boxes rather than the wooden ones, which I've probably seen in pictures and inserted into my memories. Definitely had the orange plasma screens, though. My hangout was 8-English (wonder when the old-school terminals were finally removed? I still remember my uxa.cso.uiuc.edu login, and picking up my greenbar printouts in the mailtray next to the sysadmin's desk down there) and occasionally DCL... They had a couple NeXTs and an Amiga 500 on ethernet! Oh, the mighty speed of Kermit! > During the 90-91 year, I stumbled upon a Commodore 64 software > implementation of the base PLATO system, which could connect the servers > using the university dialup (333-1100 or something). Hmm....was that Winchester or Mossberg? ;) I've never seen the C64 implementation, but that's something worth finding. I know the Atari PLATO cart is pretty rare. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 10:32:37 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:32:37 -0700 Subject: CP-V Message-ID: <46433B15.8070200@bitsavers.org> > I was trying to find a CP-V command set http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sds/sigma/cp-v From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 10:46:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:46:09 -0600 Subject: CP-V In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 May 2007 08:32:37 -0700. <46433B15.8070200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <46433B15.8070200 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > I was trying to find a CP-V command set > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sds/sigma/cp-v I see there are source code listings as PDF files there too. How common is this on bitsavers? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 10:46:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:46:34 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> References: , <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com>, <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> As much fun as playing Airfight at 1200 baud with a plasma touchscreen was back in the 70's, did Plato accomplish anything? I was given to understand that the level of instruction delivered was no better (at best) or considerably worse (at worst) that traditional pedagogical methods. It was an interesting "gee whiz" toy for the time, but did it leave any lasting legacy? I've yet to hear someone say "If it weren't for PLATO, I'd be pushing a mop at the local Wendy's." Cheers, Chuck From wizard at voyager.net Thu May 10 10:46:57 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:46:57 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> , <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 04:40 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ensor wrote: > > > > >....USB really *is* plug-and-play. > > > > LMAO! Maybe in some weird, parallel universe.... > > You plug it in, then you play with it for hours trying to get the darn thing > to work. > > It seems to be the software side that nearly always causes me problems. Even > under Linux it seems a total mess and any logfile output isn't particularly > helpful in diagnosing problems (and of course under MS Windows you're lucky if > you even *get* any logfile output when something goes wrong) > > My experience so far with USB cameras, mice, webcams, RS232 adapters and CF > adapters has been decidedly not good... I have to admit I'm puzzled by this entire exchange. I was trying to remember a problem I've had, so I could add to the list in the spirit of commiseration, but I honestly cannot say that I have ever had a problem with USB connections, compact flash adapters, SCSI connections, or IDE connections, for that matter. I simply use components that are age-similar, and have never had a problem. I don't like the idea of writing a driver for, say, a USB memory stick, but, when I've plugged them in, they have always worked. SOMEBODY wrote them, and that's what counts -- in my opinion. I will admit that I've never (so far) attempted to put a USB port on a CP/M machine, for instance. That would be, as I see it, an awkward usage. What I *HAVE* had problems doing is connecting monitors to video cards. I used to have a Thompson all-purpose (forget the model number) multi-synch monitor. Back then, life was simple. If it had 15 pins, hook up a VGA monitor. If it had 9 pins, hook up the Thompson, at least until I figure out what kind of video it is... and it's handy to be able to boot and run the machine to do that, if it is a video card with which I am not familiar. I have also had problems hooking up the old ST interface hard drives -- some folks, apparently deliberately, mislabeled the pin 1 stripe on drive cables, ensuring the drives were hooked up backwards, if connected by "normal" techs, as opposed to those versed in that manufacturer's quirks. That has a demoralizing effect on the drive. I've got a compact flash card reader, a PCMCIA USB card for laptops without USB built-in, a 3.5 inch diskette drive, several Zip drives, and "el cheapo" memory sticks. I've never had the first problem with any of them. If my current computer didn't already have a 3.5 inch drive, I certainly would not get one, since I have the USB drive. All I need now is a 5.25 inch USB diskette drive and an 8 inch USB diskette drive and Bob's your uncle. I am seriously considering getting a large external USB HD, because I have had such outstanding luck with other USB devices. Their operation might as well be magic for all I know about them, that's true, but, at a certain point, the functionality wins me over. I can always tinker with old equipment, but, for me, the fact that all my USB appliances work on all my machines with USB ports has always been a given. Since I have just blundered into using USB, and the only "technical" information I normally use is to insert the plug in the orientation which puts the least strain on the fingers, it makes me wonder if some folks here -- the ones with the bitter experiences -- might be over-engineering it. Just wondering. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From robert at irrelevant.com Thu May 10 11:11:21 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:11:21 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <077401c792ae$f628eaf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <077401c792ae$f628eaf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705100911l85c04d5y66f53ff785e93283@mail.gmail.com> On 10/05/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Talking'bout SCSI, see that > http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/ee476/FinalProjects/s2001/sjk26/Default.htm > [microcontroller connecting serial digital camera to scsi zip drive] LOL.. I had one of those Barbie cameras; very low resolution, RS232 only, and a terrible (for an adult!) windows application to drive it... ?69.99 ($140) it cost me, about 1998 or so, when new. ... picked up several from a local bargain store about three years ago at ?4.99 ($10) each and managed to sell on eBay for just a little more.. The last one I failed to get rid of a few months ago on freecycle; ended up giving it to the kids next door. Hasn't digital camera technology come down in price ... From dm561 at torfree.net Thu May 10 10:13:59 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:13:59 -0300 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File Message-ID: <01C792FC.B2831F20@mse-d03> Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:03:28 -0400 From: "Ethan Dicks" Subject: Re: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File > >> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > > > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. And Firefox 1.5.0.10 (Centos 4.4). So I doubt we are imagining it; the question is, does it look good under _any_ browser? -ethan -------------- FWIW, they look fine in Explorer if I select UTF-8 and local pages stay that way, but any new page reverts to Western ISO. m From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 11:16:48 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:16:48 -0700 Subject: CP-V Message-ID: <46434570.1080101@bitsavers.org> > I see there are source code listings as PDF files there too. > How common is this on bitsavers? If I have code as paper listings, I'll put them under pdf From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 11:22:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:22:08 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk>, <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <4642E440.328.6F337F@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 11:46, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Their operation might as well be magic for all I know about them, > that's true, but, at a certain point, the functionality wins me over. I > can always tinker with old equipment, but, for me, the fact that all my > USB appliances work on all my machines with USB ports has always been a > given. Since I have just blundered into using USB, and the only > "technical" information I normally use is to insert the plug in the > orientation which puts the least strain on the fingers, it makes me > wonder if some folks here -- the ones with the bitter experiences -- > might be over-engineering it. Just wondering. Many of the problems associated with USB can be attributed solely to faulty driver software. After bumbling around with USB support as an add-on for Win95 (horrible), the geniuses at Redmond really did have a good idea--layer the driver implementation into the baseline drivers and device-specific "minidrivers" that would work with either NT or Win98. Unfortunately, this was carried out with the usual competence (or lack of it) that we associate with Windows software. If memory serves, USB came rather late to Linux, most of the effort being spearheaded by an on-again, off-again effort out of Spain(?). In any case, it was a retrofit into the existing system device driver structure. Simple USB devices, such as floppy drives and CF card readers have worked just fine for me. On the other hand, I have a box of USB peripherals which don't operate in any fashion and whose manufacturers have long been out of business (or who disavow ever having built the damned things). One of the big issues that I have with wholesale USB peripheral implementation is the need for additional boxes (hubs) in my already cluttered work area. Cables, cables everywhere with lots of little dodads to get buried under the flotsam of paper and books. That being said, I've got an HP scanner with both USB and SCSI interfaces--and I use it in SCSI mode. Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 10 11:26:47 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:26:47 -0400 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com>, <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> It was jaw dropping incredible stuff like this, that got me into the field. Funny thing now is, I'm so jaded by technology, so little gets me excited anymore with modern pc's and technology, but gimme a Vax or an Atari or the like, stuff is far more interesting and exciting. I think it has to do with how challenging it is to have these systems do what modern systems do transparently with little to no intervention. I always find it funny to see a modern day computer "engineer" -- ask them the mem port and irq of com1 on a PC and usually you'll get a stuttering response, blank stare or the typical - "well plug and play will set it up" --- technology has become so far removed from the user and even the tech, that many have no idea how the h*ll the things even function on the most rudimentary level. I love early "gee whiz" stuff, far more fun!!! Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > As much fun as playing Airfight at 1200 baud with a plasma > touchscreen was back in the 70's, did Plato accomplish anything? I > was given to understand that the level of instruction delivered was > no better (at best) or considerably worse (at worst) that traditional > pedagogical methods. > > It was an interesting "gee whiz" toy for the time, but did it leave > any lasting legacy? I've yet to hear someone say "If it weren't for > PLATO, I'd be pushing a mop at the local Wendy's." > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 10 11:47:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:47:02 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: On 5/10/07, Warren Wolfe wrote: > I have to admit I'm puzzled by this entire exchange. I was trying > to remember a problem I've had, so I could add to the list in the spirit > of commiseration, but I honestly cannot say that I have ever had a > problem with USB connections... I simply use components that are > age-similar, and have never had a problem. Therein is the answer to a lot of USB *and* SCSI complaints - trying to use an ACB-4000 and MFM drives on a "modern" machine (no way to query drive geometry), or, for one USB case I can speak to, attempting to attach a Toshiba "In-Touch" (PMD-C004) display to *anything* newer than Windows 95 (no, really... that's what its drivers are for) doesn't go well. As most of us have experienced, it doesn't take much to break "age-similar". Yes, I would expect that if I go out *today* and buy any USB disk or printer and plug it into any PC bought *today* running an OS I can buy or download *today*, it should "just work". The problem creeps in, say, when I want to run a 4-year-old USB 1.0 disk enclosure on a week-old machine that only has USB 2.0 ports. USB claims to be "universal", but even that's been a moving target from 1.0 to 1.1 to 2.0. Most things do manage to achieve interoperability, but it only takes one or two devices to throw a wrench in the works. One thing I _really_ don't like about USB is that you are at the mercy of the writers of the drivers. RS-232-attached or parallel-port-attached or even SCSI-attached devices can be poked and proded with a variety of tools (hardware and software) and can be made to work in situations where they _don't_ work out of the box. I don't think the same level of flexibility exists with USB. Since I would like to be able to talk to this PMD-C004, I'd like to be proven wrong. I am, by necessity, using more and more USB devices every day. I still insist on being able to hook "legacy devices" to "legacy ports". I expect to freeze in time somewhat when there is just no way to fit a real serial port or real parallel port to a "modern" machine. USB works fine for the masses who just want to hook scanners and printers and memory card readers to their machines; I do things that "the public" don't find interesting, so my standards are higher. -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 10 12:22:52 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:22:52 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> References: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464354EC.4060309@jbrain.com> Jason T wrote: > Memory flood! I don't remember those there....but I don't think I had > any classes that used them. I just remember them from the Engineering > Open House days (which would have been a similar period, probably > 88-90.) They could very well have been those boxes rather than the > wooden ones, which I've probably seen in pictures and inserted into my > memories. Definitely had the orange plasma screens, though. I remember some of the wooden ones. University High (the high school affiliated with UIUC) had some wooden ones in their lab. Uni High was a destination for chess matches in high school (I sucked at chess, but the local C64 heads went, so it was a cheap way to meet them each week or two). Having only seen PC-XTs and home computers, those slanted wooden beasts looked so foreign to me in 87-89. Little did I know I would be using them in 90. > > My hangout was 8-English (wonder when the old-school terminals were > finally removed? I still remember my uxa.cso.uiuc.edu login, and > picking up my greenbar printouts in the mailtray next to the > sysadmin's desk down there) and occasionally DCL... They had a couple > NeXTs and an Amiga 500 on ethernet! Oh, the mighty speed of Kermit! jlb31348 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu. Google (via Dejanews) has most of my old postings under that ID. The accounts are coded. 3 initials, the year of creation (3rd year of offering student IDs, I believe), and a 4 digit number. As I recall, the student accounts ran on some multi-68K CPU unix box that was sitting in the basement of the Illini Union. I saw the behemoth while using the X terminals in that lab. Years before Vista eye candy, I remember folks writing elaborate scripts so they could have all their X goodies (xv, xeyes, etc.) come up on any X terminal anywhere on campus, whether it be the IBM RTs, the Sparcs, or the RS6000 units in DCL. I, sadly, was never that motivated, so I just xterm'ed and started things by hand. I think the box was a Sequent, but I'm not sure, memory is already fading. To get (somewhat) back on topic, I knew there were lots of discussion groups in the PLATO system, but UIUC was on NFSNet, and the dorm labs got IP before I arrived. After someone tipped me off to USENET, PLATO was relegated to schoolwork only. Oh, but 333-1100 coupled with Novaterm 8.X (or maybe 9.1) and my trusty 2400 bps Zoom modem saved my bacon all through the CS classes. Being able to code machine problems (MPs) from the room was pure nirvana. Novaterm's soft-80 mode and reliable 2400bpx routines made it a platform of choice. It sounds crazy, but I used that 64 for all my college work until late 1992. PLATO on the 64, MPs via Novaterm, and term papers via GEOS and my OKI180 printer. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 12:31:52 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 18:31:52 +0100 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46435708.2060204@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/05/2007 13:41, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html >> >> Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm >> using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. >> >> Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? > > I'm seeing the messed-up characters too, and I'm also using a Mozilla > browser. In my case, Seamonkey 1.1.1. I see broken UTF-8 characters too, using Firefox 2.0.0.3 or 1.5.0.11 under Windows XP SP2. I see the same crap with Internet Explorer 7 (7.0.5730.11). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From feedle at feedle.net Thu May 10 12:38:48 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:38:48 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> References: , <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com>, <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <464358A8.8040007@feedle.net> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I always find it funny to see a modern day computer "engineer" -- ask > them the mem port and irq of com1 on a PC and usually you'll get a > stuttering response, blank stare or the typical - "well plug and play > will set it up" --- technology has become so far removed from the > user and even the tech, that many have no idea how the h*ll the things > even function on the most rudimentary level. While I would agree with the overall statement, hardware EIA-232 ports themselves are an anacronism along with IRQs and memory ports. As an example ad absurtum, if my COM port is hanging off of a USB dongle, what is it's IRQ and memory port? Bet you wouldn't know either. However, I can bet the same modern-day engineers who couldn't answer that question could step you through the entire USB negotiation session, in some cases down to the bits on the wire. Knowledge is relevant to the era in which it is acquired. "Eras", for purposes of computer science, are measured in single digit years... maybe a decade at the most. Hardware IRQs and memory port locations are about as relevant today as vacuum-tube electronics was in the early microcomputer era, when knowing what IRQ your serial card was on really was important.. but knowing how to diagnose a blown vacuum tube wasn't. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 12:39:28 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 18:39:28 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/05/2007 17:47, Ethan Dicks wrote: > As most of us have experienced, it doesn't take much to break > "age-similar". Yes, I would expect that if I go out *today* and buy > any USB disk or printer and plug it into any PC bought *today* running > an OS I can buy or download *today*, it should "just work". Hmm... but the whole world's not a PC (nor even a Vax :-)) A few weeks ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a Mac, which doesn't even see them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From silent700 at gmail.com Thu May 10 13:03:51 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 13:03:51 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <464354EC.4060309@jbrain.com> References: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> <464354EC.4060309@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705101103tf3bcb2dg48362dbdcd1eae7f@mail.gmail.com> On 5/10/07, Jim Brain wrote: > number. As I recall, the student accounts ran on some multi-68K CPU > unix box that was sitting in the basement of the Illini Union. I saw Yep, it was a Sequent, I remember some boxes (cardboard ones) in the 8-English lab from Sequent. Upgrade parts, maybe. I thought the machine itself was there in that lab, but there's no way to recall what I saw there. I was jht56010, so you're date code holds there (since my account was generated in 91.) I don't think I discovered usenet until I left UIUC (in '92, unfortunately,) or at least I didn't post from there. > Vista eye candy, I remember folks writing elaborate scripts so they > could have all their X goodies (xv, xeyes, etc.) come up on any X > terminal anywhere on campus, whether it be the IBM RTs, the Sparcs, or > the RS6000 units in DCL. I, sadly, was never that motivated, so I just Now that stuff I don't recall, probably because I wasn't in any CS classes then. I remember IBM PS/2s with telnet in the dorm labs (PAR and FAR open all night!) and everyone competed for the Mac SE (or SE/30s?) to use windowing and play SCEPTRE :) > of choice. It sounds crazy, but I used that 64 for all my college work > until late 1992. PLATO on the 64, MPs via Novaterm, and term papers via > GEOS and my OKI180 printer. My HS graduation gift was an Amiga 500 (geek!) so I got to bring that down there with me. All I could do was dial in to a shell - not sure if AmigaTCP/SLIP was around then, and if so I doubt UIUC was providing that service. -j From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 10 13:13:12 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:13:12 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 5/10/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 10/05/2007 17:47, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > As most of us have experienced, it doesn't take much to break > > "age-similar". Yes, I would expect that if I go out *today* and buy > > any USB disk or printer and plug it into any PC bought *today* running > > an OS I can buy or download *today*, it should "just work". > > Hmm... but the whole world's not a PC In terms of aggregate market-share and hardware vendors' planning, it might as well be. :-( > (nor even a Vax :-)) I learned C on an 11/750 running 4.1BSD... "all the world's a VAX" really means something to me. It was, um, a secondary education when I went from C programming on UNIX on a VAX to embedded C on a 68000 with our own home-rolled clib. Fortunately, I had plenty of M68K assembler experience to make heads-or-tails of what was going on. > A few weeks > ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a > variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a > Mac, which doesn't even see them. Yeah... I have yet to take the plunge and buy any USB serial adapters for just that reason - for me, they have to work with Windows (laptops), Linux, _and_ Mac OS X, or I don't care if they are $2 or $10 each... they aren't going to cut it. I'm faced with getting a new company-paid laptop later this year. I'm now trying to decide between "whatever hardware is being provided by internal IT" and replacing Vista with RedHat Linux, or taking the plunge and going with some form of Macbook. My job is 100% Linux, so I'd _rather_ be running it on my desk, but given the stuff that's available new as a "standard laptop", since they aren't hardware compatible with what was available even 2 years ago (no PCMCIA/Cardbus, no serial, no parallel, no PATA, no PS/2...), I might as well get a Mac (I've already asked if I can get my old laptop back - no answer yet). I haven't done any software dev on a Mac, but at least with Linux, I know I can write device drivers from scratch (having done it for VMS and Ultrix, I don't find the process too scary, just fiddly). -ethan From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu May 10 13:28:04 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:28:04 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070510141727.04f88818@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: >On 10/05/2007 17:47, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>As most of us have experienced, it doesn't take much to break >>"age-similar". Yes, I would expect that if I go out *today* and buy >>any USB disk or printer and plug it into any PC bought *today* running >>an OS I can buy or download *today*, it should "just work". > >Hmm... but the whole world's not a PC (nor even a Vax :-)) A few weeks >ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a >variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a >Mac, which doesn't even see them. Yes, but is that actually USB's fault, or the device, or the Mac? If Apple didn't fully follow the standard for USB stuff, then it'd be the Mac's fault. If the device manufacturer didn't follow a USB specification in making the device, but "it works on a PC so close enough" -- that's not USB's fault either - it's whomever made the device. I have a USB->Serial device that works fine in Linux, AFAIK on a Mac (but never tested - there are company drivers, tho) and under Win2K & XP... except running DriveWire for my CoCo. In that one, single application, XP will occasionally bluescreen right in the middle of my CoCo booting NitrOS-9. Ungh. I'm *guessing* it's a driver issue. I'm entertaining suggestions on a new USB->Serial dongle, as that's half of what I bought the darned thing for... :-/ Just because USB isn't universal, may not actually be USB's fault... ;-) However, I don't think it's a buss either, so it's still mis-named. :-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From spc at conman.org Thu May 10 13:35:54 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:35:54 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20070510183554.GA17514@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Philip Pemberton once stated: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > >using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > Same here, with Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows 2000 SP4 and Firefox 2.0 on > Fedora Core 6. > > >Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? > > > > So either the Docbook source or Docbook->XHTML converter he's using is > FUBAR. It's actually the HTTP protocol in this case. If you select UTF-8 encoding (under Firefox, "View -> Character Encodings -> UTF-8" you'll see the page correctly. Internally, the page is set to UTF-8 (within the processing tag) but Firefox *has* to accept the character set that Apache sends (in this case, ISO-8859-1, which is the Apache default by the way) and interpret it that way. So even though the document itself specifies UTF-8, becasue the way conflicting character set information is resolved, the HTTP sever (in this case, Apache) wins (wierd, I know, but that's the way it is). -spc (So there you go) From spc at conman.org Thu May 10 13:37:03 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:37:03 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070510183703.GB17514@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Ethan Dicks once stated: > > So I doubt we are imagining it; the question is, does it look good > under _any_ browser? Nope (see other message I sent for the reason why). -spc (Welcome to i18n ... ) From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu May 10 14:11:54 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another IBM 5110 system Message-ID: <20070510191154.26703.qmail@web51603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I just picked-up an IBM 5110 in Las Vegas. It cost me a few hundred, but a nice system (no printer). Unfortunately, I had the leave the giant floppy drive chassis there - too big for the car - I think it weighs around 150 lbs. I will drive out there again in a few weeks (with a bigger vehicle) to bring it back to southern California. Steve. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 14:21:27 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:21:27 -0700 Subject: USB drivers Message-ID: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> > A few weeks > ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a > variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a > Mac, which doesn't even see them. Did they 'just work' or was a driver downloaded off the net to make them work? The curse of Windows is every vendor doing things their own way, and the need for thousands of incompatible drivers. You can extend this to USB drivers as well. A USB async adapter can be implemented a bunch of different ways, going as far back as Anchorchips devices that squirted code onto the adapter, up through the current reduced cost devices that barely offer any tech docs on how they work. Vendors really only care about Windows support, and grudgingly give out info to driver writers (or they have to reverse engineer the hardware to do it). They also want to lock you into their device, so they have no interest in common drivers. Getting back to the original topic, as long as the protocol for the floppy adapter is documented so that people can write USB drivers for it for other platforms, it should not be an issue. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 14:41:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 13:41:26 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 May 2007 08:46:34 -0700. <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > It was an interesting "gee whiz" toy for the time, but did it leave > any lasting legacy? It was the genesis of: - computer based/assisted/automated instruction - interactive chat - messaging areas - online gaming - massive multiplayer gaming - graphical gaming So yeah, it was tremendously influential. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 10 14:53:00 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:53:00 -0500 Subject: The Plato system References: Message-ID: <007601c7933c$d2c0f3d0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... (re: Plato)... > It was the genesis of: > - computer based/assisted/automated instruction Eh, computers were doing this before Plato. The HP2000 for example was quite big in CAI. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 15:07:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 13:07:10 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <464318FE.23726.13D366A@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 13:41, Richard wrote: > It was the genesis of: > - computer based/assisted/automated instruction > - interactive chat > - messaging areas > - online gaming > - massive multiplayer gaming > - graphical gaming > > So yeah, it was tremendously influential. My question mostly related not to the recreational use, but rather to the first of your points--the instructional value. I seem to recall that the original plasma terminals were freakishly expensive and that time on the system was no bargain either. I remember that Plato was Bill Norris' darling and there was a push to get it used anyway it could be used. In particular, I remember that some internals subjects at CDC were programmed as Plato courses (e.g. "Everything you never wanted to know about 6RM") but that any useful level of detail simply wasn't there. I thought about all of the time and money that went into the rather anemic courseware and figured that it would have been cheaper for management to give Jitze Couperous a sheaf of plane tickets and put him up at 4 star hotels to give hands-on insruction on the subject. I'll rephrase my question as "Was the CAI delivered by PLATO worth the investment?" Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 15:16:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:16:08 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 May 2007 14:53:00 -0500. <007601c7933c$d2c0f3d0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <007601c7933c$d2c0f3d0$6600a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote... (re: Plato)... > > It was the genesis of: > > - computer based/assisted/automated instruction > Eh, computers were doing this before Plato. The HP2000 for example was quite > big in CAI. s/the genesis/a major influence/ then. Either way, I don't think you can deny the impact of PLATO. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 10 15:43:33 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:43:33 -0300 Subject: The Plato system References: , <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com>, <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com><4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <0a1101c79344$09992880$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I always find it funny to see a modern day computer "engineer" -- ask > them the mem port and irq of com1 on a PC and usually you'll get a > stuttering response, blank stare or the typical - "well plug and play > will set it up" --- technology has become so far removed from the user > and even the tech, that many have no idea how the h*ll the things even > function on the most rudimentary level. Maybe that's why we do love this stuff! Greetings Alexandre PS: FB3? Will it happen? :) From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 10 15:45:56 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:45:56 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705101103tf3bcb2dg48362dbdcd1eae7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> <464354EC.4060309@jbrain.com> <51ea77730705101103tf3bcb2dg48362dbdcd1eae7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46438484.5020608@jbrain.com> Jason T wrote: > On 5/10/07, Jim Brain wrote: > > Now that stuff I don't recall, probably because I wasn't in any CS > classes then. I remember IBM PS/2s with telnet in the dorm labs (PAR > and FAR open all night!) and everyone competed for the Mac SE (or > SE/30s?) to use windowing and play SCEPTRE :) More off-topic-ness. I 'admin'ed one of those labs in 1991-93, the one at Allen Hall. They were open 24/7. The PS/2 units were model 30s, as I recall, and barely ran Win 3.0. The Mac SEs were far more useful, but they had to have that crazy boot disk in the top drive, so each machine was fitted with the Mac "bra", as we called it, to keep the disk from fully ejecting. However, by the time I got there, the little foam insert in the bra that lets the disk partially eject but pushes it back in was getting worn out. Thus, I got called many times after people would reboot due to sad-Mac... Initially, I would use a key to unlock the bra padlock, use a hammer from the cabinet to nudge the bra off, put the disk back in, and re-install. However, I determined in a bit that you could just give the front of the monitor on the SE a good "whack" with your hand and the disk would pop back in. It worked with no ill effects, but it would greatly surprise the computer users when I would see a sad-Mac, go up, thump it hard, and go on my way :-) > > My HS graduation gift was an Amiga 500 (geek!) so I got to bring that > down there with me. All I could do was dial in to a shell - not sure > if AmigaTCP/SLIP was around then, and if so I doubt UIUC was providing > that service. Again, trying to stay on topic, since I seem to be dragging it off... The UIUC data line was fronted by some traffic-cop thing that would dump you into NovaNET at the prompt if you typed plato or somesuch. Likewise, getting on the main network required a different keyword at the initial prompt. I used to script all of that, but I'd have to dig up the old NT (that's Novaterm, not New Technology) disks to be sure. NT was not out yet, but MS came to campus and did a dog and pony show for us about the benefits of it. In 1990, we ditched the 80186 3COM comservers (or whatever they were called) for OS/2 1.3, which was better, but the lack of a good PM (which came in 2.0, as I recall) made admining the environment tough. Truly, though, those PLATO systems were considered dinosaurs when I was there. CSO had 486s and such in the CSO labs, and the plasma screen made them a bit eerie. I always wonder why UIUC didn't switch to soft PLATO on the PCs. The Macs has MACTCP, and the PCs ran clarkson packet drivers and such. (Funnily, even though NCSA (at UIUC) begat NCSA Telnet, I think Clarkson improved it, and thedorm labs would install Clarkson Telnet in lieu of NCSA. Probably NCSA cared less. Sadly, as for PLATO technical information, I was only a user. The heyday for them had come and gone by the time I arrived at UIUC, and many of the units were in rough shape by then. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 16:01:50 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:01:50 -0700 Subject: How much of the FOG collection is archived? Message-ID: <4643883E.9040307@bitsavers.org> A few weeks ago, CHM received a donation of the entire floppy collection of the First Osborne Group (FOG). It is literally thousands of 5" floppies, and I am trying to get a feeling for what of the collection has already been archived. I believe NODE51 has the CPM portion on line, but FOG morphed into a general users group including support for the DOS world through the 80's. It will be a LOT of work to read the collection, so I'm trying to get a feeling for how to prioritize what's there. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 10 16:08:56 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:08:56 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90705101408g58ef55c0t8abaf84af9a5376e@mail.gmail.com> On 5/8/07, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > If you assume that USB can transfer 1MByte per second (in USB2 High Speed > mode, i.e. 12Mbit/sec), then you can transfer 128Kbytes in 125 milliseconds. > Ten seconds data transfer time on top of the 80 seconds for data transfer - > roughly a minute and a half best case. You're probably looking at a maximum of > two minutes worst case - an eighth of the time it'd take to do the same thing > over RS232. > That's 1MB/sec in Full-Speed mode. High-Speed mode would be more like 20-30MB/sec, if the device can supply data that fast. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 16:16:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:16:07 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 May 2007 13:07:10 -0700. <464318FE.23726.13D366A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <464318FE.23726.13D366A at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 10 May 2007 at 13:41, Richard wrote: > > > It was the genesis of: > > - computer based/assisted/automated instruction > > - interactive chat > > - messaging areas > > - online gaming > > - massive multiplayer gaming > > - graphical gaming > > > > So yeah, it was tremendously influential. > > My question mostly related not to the recreational use, but rather to > the first of your points--the instructional value. The messaging areas and chat were part of the instructional environment. You could take the lessons, but you could also participate in the discussions with the instructor and other students. When taking a lesson, you could request real-time chat from the TA in order to assist you with the lesson. I know this because I took courses that leveraged PLATO. UDel had the entire setup: the mainframe and the terminal rooms scattered around the campus. They even had musical tone generators attached to the terminals in the music building and you could use them (with headphones, to prevent you from annoying other people in the room) for musical instruction. > I seem to > recall that the original plasma terminals were freakishly expensive > and that time on the system was no bargain either. The institutions that owned their own Cyber mainframe obviously thought it was worth the cost. UDel and UIUC were two of the big installations, IIRC. > I remember that Plato was Bill Norris' darling and there was a push > to get it used anyway it could be used. In particular, I remember > that some internals subjects at CDC were programmed as Plato courses > (e.g. "Everything you never wanted to know about 6RM") but that any > useful level of detail simply wasn't there. That sort of critique could be applied to any computer-based learning, IMO. At least with PLATO, when done right, you could chat with the TA or instructor to get more information. Of course this had to be done during "office hours", just like with a physical instructor. > I'll rephrase my question as "Was the CAI delivered by PLATO worth > the investment?" I think UDel's answer would be yes. It was very heavily used. Many times the PLATO terminal rooms were full and there were several of them around campus. They were used for instruction in many subject areas, so it wasn't the pet darling of one department. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 10 16:25:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:25:31 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4641DE49.32003.37D069BF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com>, <46422F5D.5050901@yahoo.co.uk> <4641DE49.32003.37D069BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46438DCB.50501@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 May 2007 at 15:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Any recollection as to what sort of bugs? I don't need it to write any data, >> but I would rather it faithfully reproduced the data on the tapes* (rather >> than giving junk whilst appearing to work) > > My recollection is that there were numerous firmware bugs. We'd > received the drive as a sample in order in hope that we'd endorse it > as a drive to work with our software. It didn't work as expected, > TTi fessed up to some firmware problems and we told them to get in > touch with us when they got things ironed out and sent the drive > back. Aha... fair enough. As someone else mentioned, it does turn out to be an Exabyte 8500 drive internally, just with a TTi SCSI interface at the back which hooks both to the drive and the front-panel electronics. Unfortunately it didn't want to accept the cleaning tape (just spat it straight back out again) - I was worried there was a fault with the tape transport, but it's accepted one of the 8mm cartridges just fine. This first tape at least is in tar format, and is happily extracting via a Linux box as I speak (type). Too early to say whether the contents are actually anything interesting yet, though. (Lots of source code so far, including odds and ends for the Natsemi 32xxx family, so I'm hopeful it's not just a backup of some secretary's desktop!) >> I've only ever seen it on QIC drives, to be honest, not other tape transport >> technologies. Is it definitely an age-related thing (i.e. it'll hit *all* >> drives eventually, rather than being something related to the specific type of >> rubber used on the QIC drives)? > > Isn't most of the rubber used in QIC drives just neoprene? Might be; I really don't know. I'm sure all rubber decays eventually - either crumbling or turning to mush. It just seems to do it with *some* QIC drives long before they've otherwise reached end of useful life, but it's not something I've personally come across elsewhere. If the material is just something "stock" then it would suggest that pretty much anything's prone to the same goo problem. Oh, and as someone (possibly it was you) said, these drives are slooooow! I'm glad there's only two tapes... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 16:36:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:36:57 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <46432E09.5495.18F67A6@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 13:41, Richard wrote: > It was the genesis of: > - computer based/assisted/automated instruction > - interactive chat > - messaging areas > - online gaming > - massive multiplayer gaming > - graphical gaming I remembered going to NCC (golly, what year? It was the one where IBM was demoing its ink-droplet printing) and walking by the CDC booth and noticing some gal flogging PLATO, with not a lot of interest. I asked if I could take a look at the (plasma) terminal and she said, sure. I brought up Airfight and within about 30 secconds had a gaggle of people piled up about three deep behind me. As in a lot of things, CDC management held out for the more noble goal of "education" and completely dismissed the gaming aspect as being important. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 10 16:40:36 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:40:36 -0400 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200705101740.37124.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 09 May 2007 14:26, Jason T wrote: > Then I remembered when my high school class took a trip down to the U of I > at Champaign-Urbana for "Engineering Open House" and I was sat in front of > this monstrous wooden terminal with beguiling orange vector graphics. Only > many years later did I learn what it was, and where it fit in the timeline > of computing (thanks in part to Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib/Dream > Machines" books.) > > So...who has one? What's become of the remaining infrastructure? I > recently used a Windows Plato client to connect to some descendant of > the system, but I asssume even the back end was running on modern > hardware then, and not old Data General equipment. > > -j Last time I saw one of those was way back in 1978, when I went with a guy I worked with to Reading (PA) Area Community College, and watched this thing draw its screen at an agonizingly slow rate over a 300 baud connection. :-) It was pretty nifty, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu May 10 16:46:38 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 22:46:38 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90705101408g58ef55c0t8abaf84af9a5376e@mail.gmail.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <1e1fc3e90705101408g58ef55c0t8abaf84af9a5376e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464392BE.6020002@philpem.me.uk> Glen Slick wrote: > That's 1MB/sec in Full-Speed mode. High-Speed mode would be more like > 20-30MB/sec, if the device can supply data that fast. True. I keep getting High Speed and Full Speed mixed up... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From brad at heeltoe.com Thu May 10 16:48:48 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:48:48 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 May 2007 09:22:08 PDT." <4642E440.328.6F337F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200705102148.l4ALmmW6000669@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >If memory serves, USB came rather late to Linux, most of the effort >being spearheaded by an on-again, off-again effort out of Spain(?). >In any case, it was a retrofit into the existing system device driver >structure. I don't like to quibble, but I don't think that's a fair characterization of USB in linux. There are a small group of very devoted people behind it, and the work they have done is quite reasonable. The support in the 2.6 kernels has worked well for me, but I don't use a lot of different devices. The support is *very* active and on-going. Monitor the linux-usb mailing list and you'll see a *lot* of traffic. The usb code in linux is (my opinion) well structured these days. And there is support for usb client devices as well as multiple different hosts and layered hosts. The URB model seems to be holding up well. But other's may have a different opinion. Linux (and other operating systems) have struggled with how to best support the "plug and play" model. Some methods work better than others. Certainly all have evolved over time. They are all at best a "work in progress" (again, my opinion). -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting +1-781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 16:51:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:51:39 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4643317B.9243.19CDE5C@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 15:16, Richard wrote: > The messaging areas and chat were part of the instructional > environment. You could take the lessons, but you could also > participate in the discussions with the instructor and other students. If I were seated at an Intercom 200 terminal years before Plato, I could chat with any other Intercom user (at least under SCOPE). Chat was nothing new at all and certainly wasn't unique to CDC. Speaking of Intercom--did any of said terminal setups (console, reader/punch and printer) ever escape the smelter? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 10 17:05:56 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:05:56 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> References: , <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com>, <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <46439744.8030406@oldskool.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > It was jaw dropping incredible stuff like this, that got me into the > field. Funny thing now is, I'm so jaded by technology, so little gets > me excited anymore with modern pc's and technology, but gimme a Vax or > an Atari or the like, stuff is far more interesting and exciting. I > think it has to do with how challenging it is to have these systems do > what modern systems do transparently with little to no intervention. This is the heart of my hobby. Twenty years ago I loved trying to coax more than one simultaneous voice out of my PC speaker... played with real-time 3D... etc. Even in the 1990s, I dorked with VGA trying to get more than 256 simultaneous colors out of it (with some success, actually). It's why, 25+ years later, my favorite thing to do is program assembler on my 5150. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 17:08:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:08:11 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46438DCB.50501@yahoo.co.uk> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4641DE49.32003.37D069BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <46438DCB.50501@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4643355B.24881.1AC009B@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 16:25, Jules Richardson wrote: > Oh, and as someone (possibly it was you) said, these drives are slooooow! I'm > glad there's only two tapes... "Slow" is a relative term. Back in the day, they weren't too bad, compared to, oh, say, floppytape (QIC 40). Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 17:17:27 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 23:17:27 +0100 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/05/2007 20:21, Al Kossow wrote: > > A few weeks > > ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a > > variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a > > Mac, which doesn't even see them. > > Did they 'just work' or was a driver downloaded off the net to make them > work? Under Windows XP, "just worked". IIRC for older versions, there's a driver. Haven't found one that works for Mac OS X yet. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 17:14:32 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 23:14:32 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/05/2007 19:13, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I learned C on an 11/750 running 4.1BSD... "all the world's a VAX" > really means something to me. It was, um, a secondary education when > I went from C programming on UNIX on a VAX to embedded C on a 68000 > with our own home-rolled clib. Fortunately, I had plenty of M68K > assembler experience to make heads-or-tails of what was going on. :-) > Yeah... I have yet to take the plunge and buy any USB serial adapters > for just that reason - for me, they have to work with Windows > (laptops), Linux, _and_ Mac OS X, or I don't care if they are $2 or > $10 each... they aren't going to cut it. If I find one that does, i'll let you know. > I'm faced with getting a new company-paid laptop later this year. I'm > now trying to decide between "whatever hardware is being provided by > internal IT" and replacing Vista with RedHat Linux, or taking the > plunge and going with some form of Macbook. My job is 100% Linux, so > I'd _rather_ be running it on my desk, but given the stuff that's > available new as a "standard laptop", since they aren't hardware > compatible with what was available even 2 years ago (no > PCMCIA/Cardbus, no serial, no parallel, no PATA, no PS/2...), I might > as well get a Mac (I've already asked if I can get my old laptop back > - no answer yet). This is getting way off-topic now, but FWIW a couple of our systems guys, including one who's *really* into Linux, have Macbooks. In fact that's how I know about some of the USB stuff not working. Just to temp you in the other direction, one recently got a new dual-core Toshiba laptop, which performs very well, and which I mention because it has a real RS232 port on the back. OTOH, my USB-to-serial works fine on my Vaio, and even sends breaks correctly (which I need for some of our switches). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 17:39:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:39:08 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 May 2007 14:51:39 -0700. <4643317B.9243.19CDE5C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4643317B.9243.19CDE5C at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 10 May 2007 at 15:16, Richard wrote: > > > The messaging areas and chat were part of the instructional > > environment. You could take the lessons, but you could also > > participate in the discussions with the instructor and other students. > > If I were seated at an Intercom 200 terminal years before Plato, I > could chat with any other Intercom user (at least under SCOPE). Chat > was nothing new at all and certainly wasn't unique to CDC. Whatever. I'm not claiming that PLATO invented these things but considering I never heard of an Intercom 200 terminal or SCOPE, but I had actively used PLATO in a large heterogeneous computing environment and PLATO was the only system to have chat and discussion forums, I'd consider it to have had a significant impact. Judging by the PLATO fan sites online I'd have to say that I'm not alone, either. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 10 17:48:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 23:48:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wirelist for HP9000/200 RS232 cable Message-ID: I am currently fooling about with some HP9000/200 series machines, specifically an HP9816 and an HP9817. The serial ports of these machines are on 50 pin microribbon connectors (like SCSI connectors (!)). They're RS232 levels (1488 anmd 1489 interface chips). I believe the HP98626 RS232 interface card for these machines has the same connector. Needless to say I need to make up adapter cables to DB25 connectors. I assume HP sold said cables at one point, but I can't find the wirelists in any of the obvious manuals on hpmuseum.net (OK, if it's hidden is, say, a printer manual, I'll not have spotted it, but I've read just about every manual for the machines, the interface cards, and the BASIC). I have pinouts for the microribbon connector, so I can work out where most of the wires should go, but there are a few signals that seem to be non-standard (they're driven by I/O port lines inside the machine so what they actually do is software-determined. They're probably not important, but in the interests of compatability I'd like to wire them as HP would have wired them So does anyone have : 1) Wirelists of the original HP cables. I assume there was one going to a DB25-P (male), wires as a DTQ, that would be the most useful to me, but _any_ would be a start 2) The original cables that they can 'buzz out' and produce a wirelist from. 3) A 'spare' cable thet they can sell Thanks in advance for any help -tony From fryers at gmail.com Thu May 10 18:03:08 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 00:03:08 +0100 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: All, On 10/05/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 10/05/2007 20:21, Al Kossow wrote: > > > A few weeks > > > ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a > > > variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a > > > Mac, which doesn't even see them. > > > > Did they 'just work' or was a driver downloaded off the net to make them > > work? > > Under Windows XP, "just worked". IIRC for older versions, there's a > driver. Haven't found one that works for Mac OS X yet. A lot depends on the devices and how the OS handles the drivers. I have two USB to serial adapters that work perfectly under OpenBSD. When I initially got them they were not supported by the version I was running, but a bit of googling showed that support was new and with an upgrade - they just worked. They are recognised as; Prolific Technology Inc. USB-Serial Controller, rev 1.10/3.00 One of the things I find frustraiting is the lack of information that Windows seems to provide about what devices it sees and the logical arangement of the devices within the computer... However this is drifting further off topic.... Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 10 18:19:55 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> > > Did they 'just work' or was a driver downloaded off the net to make them > > work? > > Under Windows XP, "just worked". IIRC for older versions, there's a > driver. Haven't found one that works for Mac OS X yet. the phrase "just worked" has two different meanings. It can mean "worked", or it can mean "barely worked" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From john at guntersville.net Thu May 10 18:22:24 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 18:22:24 -0500 Subject: How much of the FOG collection is archived? In-Reply-To: <4643883E.9040307@bitsavers.org> References: <4643883E.9040307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4643A930.1040602@guntersville.net> Al Kossow wrote: > A few weeks ago, CHM received a donation of the entire floppy > collection of the First Osborne Group (FOG). It is literally > thousands of 5" floppies, and I am trying to get a feeling for > what of the collection has already been archived. I believe > NODE51 has the CPM portion on line, but FOG morphed into a general > users group including support for the DOS world through the 80's. > > It will be a LOT of work to read the collection, so I'm trying > to get a feeling for how to prioritize what's there. > I have many of the FOG osborne library on line at http://www.guntersville,net/osborne/library I have a big bunch of FOG/CPM disks from the Chicago FOG group that haven't made it on line yet. John From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 18:46:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:46:50 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <46434C7A.29527.206520E@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 16:39, Richard wrote: > Whatever. I'm not claiming that PLATO invented these things but > considering I never heard of an Intercom 200 terminal or SCOPE, but I > had actively used PLATO in a large heterogeneous computing environment > and PLATO was the only system to have chat and discussion forums, I'd > consider it to have had a significant impact. Probably before your time. SCOPE underwent a name change and became NOS/BE, just like MACE became KRONOS. Both had their interactive facilities and both were incestuously related. I believe that Plato ran under KRONOS (needed a bunch of ECS IIRC). I doubt that many people remember COS for that matter. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 18:49:14 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:49:14 -0700 Subject: Wirelist for HP9000/200 RS232 cable Message-ID: <4643AF7A.5030907@bitsavers.org> The schematic for the 98626 is at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/9000_dio/98626-90000_RS232_May82.pdf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 06:50:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 05:50:16 -0600 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > the phrase "just worked" has two different meanings. It can mean > "worked", or it can mean "barely worked" If it is the PC remember -- barely worked. I still love how crappy the PC I/O is -- you trade a serial port for a USB hub if I remember how it first came out. $99 for the cable from the pcb to AT slot. I still don't see any improvement since the PC is crappy with interupts. PS. I have digital camera -- too small and too many icons to figure out. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 18:50:01 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 00:50:01 +0100 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4643AFA9.2020407@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 00:19, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Did they 'just work' or was a driver downloaded off the net to make them >>> work? >> Under Windows XP, "just worked". IIRC for older versions, there's a >> driver. Haven't found one that works for Mac OS X yet. > > the phrase "just worked" has two different meanings. It can mean > "worked", or it can mean "barely worked" In this case, I meant "worked without fuss" :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 19:20:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:20:11 -0700 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 5:50, woodelf wrote: > If it is the PC remember -- barely worked. > I still love how crappy the PC I/O is -- you trade a serial port > for a USB hub if I remember how it first came out. Well, you could also trade the same serial port for IrDA. Now, if you wanted a serial port, USB and IrDA, you had a problem. :) Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 07:35:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 06:35:54 -0600 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> <4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 May 2007 at 5:50, woodelf wrote: > Well, you could also trade the same serial port for IrDA. Now, if > you wanted a serial port, USB and IrDA, you had a problem. :) I'm I the only one? > Cheers, > Chuck I also want old DOS for schematic capture and PCB software - the *NEW* windows stuff is too much $$$. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 10 19:46:30 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 21:46:30 -0300 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I also want old DOS for schematic capture > and PCB software - the *NEW* windows stuff is too much $$$. What do you want? Old war3z or something new and free? - Diptrace seems to me the BEST el-cheapo schematic/pcb program. With a very active developer (there is a maillist on yahoogroups where Stanislaw Ruev not only fixes bugs but also adds features) and a nice interface, for me is the winner. Very worthy of a nice and calm look. - Eagle is nice if you can stand its UI. And the price is quite high if you want to go above 100 x 80 mm. But it is free up there. Has a linux version!!! - CIRCAD hasn't autorouter, but I use it for ages. Fast as a bullet. - KiCAD is a nice free program, also has a linux version. With all this stuff, are you still looking for smartdraw and tango DOS?!? Greetz, Alexandre PS: No. Smartdraw, orcad and tango DOS aren't "abandonware" since there is no such thing anyways. From fu3.org at gmail.com Thu May 10 19:47:52 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 02:47:52 +0200 Subject: DDS vs Audio DAT In-Reply-To: <4640DF90.7090404@bitsavers.org> References: <4640DF90.7090404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <310f50ab0705101747u6eaabd59na575b7def35db53c@mail.gmail.com> I ran across two separate sites with extensive information on digital audio tapes, perhaps this is the appropriate place to put them. - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adrian.rixon/personal/ade/dat-dds/resources.html ^(above routed from http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adrian.rixon/personal/ade/dat-dds/index.html) - http://www.solorb.com/dat-heads/ Hope any of them could come to help. 2007/5/8, Al Kossow : > > I've never seen an audio cart used in a data drive, > > and we had a lot of customers using them.. > > Audio DATs don't have the media recognition burst, and will > be rejected by DDS drives. > > DDS tapes used as audio DAT tapes overwrite the DDS data, and > are unusable as data tapes after doing that. > > Early audio DAT recorders (TEAC DA-30) will accept 90M data tapes, > later TEAC drives will reject them. At one point we had about 6 > DA-30's at KFJC, which have all developed transport problems after > using a lot of 90M data tapes in them. > > We're slowly migrating 100's of DATs to optical or IDE disc media > because of the problems preserving data recorded to DAT. > > > > > > > From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu May 10 20:19:22 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 02:19:22 +0100 Subject: Oxide shedding (was Re: Floppy disc reader/writer status report) References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <46404353.3040300@yahoo.co.uk><46404058.29064.317F781D@cclist.sydex.com> <4640A73C.9050003@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <00e201c7936a$d2afc6e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > [1] Grey-labeled 5.25" Wabash disks seem to be guaranteed to >leave me with a clear disk of plastic and drive heads caked in >magnetic coating, regardless of how they've been stored :-( Superb....I've got a fair few of those in my Atari and Beeb disc boxes. :-( Is there a list anywhere listing which types of discs have these oxide shedding problems? TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu May 10 19:54:08 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 01:54:08 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com><014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <00e101c7936a$d28c1240$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > You plug it in, then you play with it for hours trying to get >the darn thing to work. ROTFLMAO! > It seems to be the software side that nearly always causes me >problems.... Yes, to be fair, it's been the software side that I've mostly had the problems with - the one real exception being my wonderful "BT Voyager 105" USB ADSL "modem". It's got a wonderful bug in it which means that as your data transfer speed approaches the max speed of your line it starts to draw more and more power....until your USB ports shut down! But then I have *VERY* few USB devices as I tend to avoid buying them as much as possible. >....diagnosing problems (and of course under MS Windows you're lucky >if you even *get* any logfile output when something goes wrong) Too true, this is one a a vast catalogue of reasons why "XP x64 Edition" will be the last Windows I run. Sounds like USB support in Linux at least doesn't force you to have to abandon your old devices due to lack of drivers when you upgrade; I only have 7 USB only devices, *5* of which are unusable.... > My experience so far with USB cameras, mice, webcams, RS232 adapters >and CF adapters has been decidedly not good... Quite, I have a USB webcam (somewhere). It's limited to a max of 15fps @ 320*240 due to USB speed restrictions - OTOH my FireWire one can do 30fps @ 640*480 (or possibly even 800*600). CF adapters seem to be pretty hit and miss, when they work they work well, when they don't....augh! TTFN - Pete. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu May 10 20:46:46 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 18:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46438DCB.50501@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Unfortunately it didn't want to accept the cleaning > tape (just spat it > straight back out again) - I was worried there was a > fault with the tape > transport, but it's accepted one of the 8mm > cartridges just fine. Check to be sure the cleaning tape isn't all the way at the end. Those cleaning tapes are good for maybe 10-20 cleans - the drive won't rewind them (not like a DLT cleaning tape, that has to be rewound). Once it gets to the end, it insists on not using it. You can manually rewind them, although you're really not supposed to - might cause more harm than good, putting junk back on the heads. Best not to clean the drive unless it needs it. -Ian From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu May 10 20:54:15 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 21:54:15 -0400 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> <4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca> <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: I use gEDA and PCB, all GPL software. Worry free from being abandoned. vax, 9000 On 5/10/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > I also want old DOS for schematic capture > > and PCB software - the *NEW* windows stuff is too much $$$. > > What do you want? Old war3z or something new and free? > > - Diptrace seems to me the BEST el-cheapo schematic/pcb program. With > a > very active developer (there is a maillist on yahoogroups where Stanislaw > Ruev not only fixes bugs but also adds features) and a nice interface, for > me is the winner. Very worthy of a nice and calm look. > - Eagle is nice if you can stand its UI. And the price is quite high > if > you want to go above 100 x 80 mm. But it is free up there. Has a linux > version!!! > - CIRCAD hasn't autorouter, but I use it for ages. Fast as a bullet. > - KiCAD is a nice free program, also has a linux version. > > With all this stuff, are you still looking for smartdraw and tango > DOS?!? > > Greetz, > Alexandre > > PS: No. Smartdraw, orcad and tango DOS aren't "abandonware" since > there > is no such thing anyways. > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 09:19:12 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:19:12 -0600 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca> <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > > PS: No. Smartdraw, orcad and tango DOS aren't "abandonware" since > there is no such thing anyways. But you can't *buy* tango anymore! The big problem I have with the *free* stuff I have is that you have no 'fingers' for card edge connectors. The lack of a 84 pin PLCC socket and a windows upgrade have kept me from doing CPLD stuff. The fact I am still *hacking*1 on a tube amp has limited my $$$ for a nice computer design, but I did get my PDP-8 clone going so I can't say I don't have a classic machine.:) *1 The improved design went *POOF* with lots of smoke ... I found out later a diode was shorted for some reason in a full wave bridge. So that is all I have to say on this list about abandonware. Now to download the CPLD software --- now legacy software for what I need. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 10 21:17:30 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 22:17:30 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <200705102217.30628.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 10 May 2007 05:34, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 01:48 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. > > > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? > > Gordon Is that what those are? I was wondering... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 10 22:49:23 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 00:49:23 -0300 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> How offtopic can I go? :o) > But you can't *buy* tango anymore! The big problem I have with the *free* > stuff I have is that you have no 'fingers' for card edge connectors. > The lack of a 84 pin PLCC socket and a windows upgrade have kept me from > doing CPLD stuff. The fact I am still *hacking*1 on a tube amp has limited > my $$$ for a nice computer design, but I did get my PDP-8 clone going > so I can't say I don't have a classic machine.:) Love God for that ;o) You **have** fingers for card edge. If you don't have, it is real easy to do, take a look in eagle as an example: You need to do a 0.100" card edge connector. Setup the grid for 0.100", put a SMD pad with the dimensions of the finger you want, cut it, paste how much you want in the next grid positions. Do the same on the solder layer (assuming you were in top layer). Presto, your card edge connector! ;o) I've done lots of it here. About the 84pin PLCC socket, you have that in eagle. BTW eagle is - at this moment - the most library-full program you can find, but diptrace is coming closer, since it can import eagle's libraries, and there is a LOT of them floating on the net, take a look at www.cadsoft.de. If you cannot find, drop me a mail and I'll help you. I **don't** like eagle and the clunky UI, but when you learn how to use that, it becomes easy. I created a component (a PLCC-44 ZIF socket) and a board in less than 10 minutes, for a PLCC to DIP adapter. > *1 The improved design went *POOF* with lots of smoke ... > I found out later a diode was shorted for some reason in a full wave > bridge. > So that is all I have to say on this list about abandonware. > Now to download the CPLD software --- now legacy software for what I need. Dunno why legacy...are you wanting to mess with PAL/GAL? Later softwares can do that. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 11:24:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:24:39 -0600 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca> <009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46434747.40805@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Love God for that ;o) You **have** fingers for card edge. If you > don't have, it is real easy to do, take a look in eagle as an example: > You need to do a 0.100" card edge connector. Setup the grid for 0.100", > put a SMD pad with the dimensions of the finger you want, cut it, paste > how much you want in the next grid positions. Do the same on the solder > layer (assuming you were in top layer). Presto, your card edge > connector! ;o) But just what are the dimensions? I've done lots of it here. About the 84pin PLCC socket, > you have that in eagle. BTW eagle is - at this moment - the most > library-full program you can find, but diptrace is coming closer, since > it can import eagle's libraries, and there is a LOT of them floating on > the net, take a look at www.cadsoft.de. If you cannot find, drop me a > mail and I'll help you. I **don't** like eagle and the clunky UI, but > when you learn how to use that, it becomes easy. I created a component > (a PLCC-44 ZIF socket) and a board in less than 10 minutes, for a PLCC > to DIP adapter. It is the pin numbering I looking at here - a little odd in the corners. >> *1 The improved design went *POOF* with lots of smoke ... >> I found out later a diode was shorted for some reason in a full wave >> bridge. >> So that is all I have to say on this list about abandonware. >> Now to download the CPLD software --- now legacy software for what I >> need. > > Dunno why legacy...are you wanting to mess with PAL/GAL? Later > softwares can do that. Umm 600 meg vs 41 meg on dial up. Three 64 CLB CPLD's and 6 2901's would make a nice 12/24 bit slice. A few more CPLD's and you have your control logic. That gets me a nice 3 MHZ cpu if my timing guess is right. Using LS-TTL the same system is lucky to be in the 1 MHZ clock speed. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 10 23:32:49 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 01:32:49 -0300 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca><009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46434747.40805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <009801c79385$e29e7f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> > But just what are the dimensions? I don't have it at my head. But in the AMP databook you can find all of them! > It is the pin numbering I looking at here - a little odd in the corners. There are the numberings on datasheets! ;o) > Umm 600 meg vs 41 meg on dial up. Three 64 CLB CPLD's and 6 2901's would > make a nice 12/24 bit slice. A few more CPLD's and you have your control > logic. That gets me a nice 3 MHZ cpu if my timing guess is right. > Using LS-TTL the same system is lucky to be in the 1 MHZ clock speed. Why not an entire xlinx or altera FPGA?! There are cypress ENOURMOUS CPLDs that are blazing fast!!! From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 23:42:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 21:42:19 -0700 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha>, <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <464391BB.7688.314D6B8@cclist.sydex.com> I think I've still got a copy of Schema SDT kicking around. Runs on a floppy-only 5150 with a Herc graphics card and an Epson MX-80 printer. Is that retro enough? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 12:17:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:17:17 -0600 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <009801c79385$e29e7f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca><009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46434747.40805@jetnet.ab.ca> <009801c79385$e29e7f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4643539D.9040909@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> But just what are the dimensions? > > I don't have it at my head. But in the AMP databook you can find all > of them! > >> It is the pin numbering I looking at here - a little odd in the corners. > > There are the numberings on datasheets! ;o) > >> Umm 600 meg vs 41 meg on dial up. Three 64 CLB CPLD's and 6 2901's would >> make a nice 12/24 bit slice. A few more CPLD's and you have your control >> logic. That gets me a nice 3 MHZ cpu if my timing guess is right. >> Using LS-TTL the same system is lucky to be in the 1 MHZ clock speed. > > Why not an entire xlinx or altera FPGA?! There are cypress ENOURMOUS > CPLDs that are blazing fast!!! > . Arg! I am downloading the wrong software ... I want atmel winCUPL . ( Stops download -- since I can't get the serial proms for a altera fpga. I knew I had a reason for not using FPGA's.) That's what I get for reading email and downloading stuff. Here is a guess for my system speed using LS parts not counting timing skew and other design features for 6502 style clock. Clock buffer 15 ns 74LS161 30 ns 74LS158 25 ns 74S472(prom) 60 ns 74LS173 20 ns ------------------ Total 150 ns for 1/4 phase. 600 ns memory cycle max speed. From bear at typewritten.org Fri May 11 02:13:30 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 00:13:30 -0700 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: >> Yeah... I have yet to take the plunge and buy any USB serial adapters >> for just that reason - for me, they have to work with Windows >> (laptops), Linux, _and_ Mac OS X, or I don't care if they are $2 or >> $10 each... they aren't going to cut it. > > If I find one that does, i'll let you know. Jesus, you guys, Keyspan has had not one, but NINE (at least!) models that have been supported under Windows, OS X, and linux, for YEARS. How hard is it to use Google? ok bear From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 11 02:47:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 03:47:46 -0400 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> <4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca> <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <128F3F80-4EBA-47BD-BBF2-34313ACED9AC@neurotica.com> On May 10, 2007, at 9:54 PM, 9000 VAX wrote: > I use gEDA and PCB, all GPL software. Worry free from being abandoned. Seconded. I've done several commercial products with gEDA/PCB. It's top-of-the-line stuff, and it runs on modern platforms. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gordon at gjcp.net Fri May 11 01:59:53 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 07:59:53 +0100 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <20070510183554.GA17514@brevard.conman.org> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> <20070510183554.GA17514@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <1178866793.10640.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 14:35 -0400, Sean Conner wrote: > processing tag) but Firefox *has* to accept the character set that Apache > sends (in this case, ISO-8859-1, which is the Apache default by the way) and Yes, after a bit of digging I suspected a bit of Apache misconfiguration. Gordon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 11 04:06:57 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 04:06:57 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46443231.3010305@yahoo.co.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Unfortunately it didn't want to accept the cleaning >> tape (just spat it >> straight back out again) - I was worried there was a >> fault with the tape >> transport, but it's accepted one of the 8mm >> cartridges just fine. > > Check to be sure the cleaning tape isn't all the way > at the end. Heh, it was too. Someone had only bothered to tick off two of the cycles on the tape itself, but stupid me hadn't bothered to check the physical tape inside :( I'm only getting just over 20KB/s out of the drive though, so I'm trying to trace the problem there at the moment - I gather transfer rate should be more like 15 times that value. Unfortunately the 'net seems to be populated with people who want dip switch settings for this (TTi, not the internal Exabyte drive) unit, but nobody who actually has them. I've ruled out SCSI problems (at least with the HBA, cabling and termination), so it looks like the drive itself really is only spitting data out that fast. mt's status isn't reporting any errors, nor are the SCSI logs, and nor is the front panel of the drive... A 31 hour restore if there's 2.3GB of data on the tape is a bit on the lengthy side... From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 11 04:20:04 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:20:04 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 08:13, r.stricklin wrote: > >>> Yeah... I have yet to take the plunge and buy any USB serial adapters >>> for just that reason - for me, they have to work with Windows >>> (laptops), Linux, _and_ Mac OS X, or I don't care if they are $2 or >>> $10 each... they aren't going to cut it. >> >> If I find one that does, i'll let you know. > > Jesus, you guys, Keyspan has had not one, but NINE (at least!) models > that have been supported under Windows, OS X, and linux, for YEARS. > > How hard is it to use Google? Using Google *and* the search engines on two suppliers sites we use found adapters, including the one I referred to, that *claim* to work but don't (or don't work straight off). Don't assume that just because something says it's supported that it actually works properly in all cases. A perfect example being the memory sticks I also mentioned earlier. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 11 04:47:31 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:47:31 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 10:20, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/05/2007 08:13, r.stricklin wrote: >> How hard is it to use Google? > > Using Google *and* the search engines on two suppliers sites we use > found adapters, including the one I referred to, that *claim* to work > but don't (or don't work straight off). I should have said that the specific one I was testing earlier this week came with Mac OS X drivers, but they don't work. It also had drivers for earlier Mac OS but we had nothing to try those on. It wasn't a Keyspan one, though; they tend to cost a lot more here (cheapest I can find is about US$40 equivalent an upwards as opposed to just over a third of that for the one I tried) but I'm off to order one now. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 11 05:03:38 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:03:38 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46443231.3010305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46443231.3010305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46443F7A.10406@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 10:06, Jules Richardson wrote: > A 31 hour restore if there's 2.3GB of data on the tape is a bit on the > lengthy side... Indeed, I'm sure mine used to take about 2-3 hours. It couldn't be something to do with synchronous vs async, could it? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri May 11 05:30:18 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 03:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46443231.3010305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <351724.85272.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I'm only getting just over 20KB/s out of the drive > though, so I'm trying to > trace the problem there at the moment - I gather > transfer rate should be more > like 15 times that value. > A 31 hour restore if there's 2.3GB of data on the > tape is a bit on the lengthy > side... Yeah, those things are slow, but not that slow. Make sure that the drive is elevated higher than the SCSI controller/computer - it might help if the data can go downhill :) But seriously, it should be going faster than that - is it shoe-shining a lot (moving back and forth over the head)? That means that it's retrying too much - either due to tape errors, or a dirty head. You might have to put your ear right on the drive to hear it - they are kinda quiet (at least compared to the computers I typically use them on!) -Ian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 11 06:07:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 06:07:22 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46443F7A.10406@dunnington.plus.com> References: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46443231.3010305@yahoo.co.uk> <46443F7A.10406@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46444E6A.9030009@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/05/2007 10:06, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> A 31 hour restore if there's 2.3GB of data on the tape is a bit on the >> lengthy side... > > Indeed, I'm sure mine used to take about 2-3 hours. It couldn't be > something to do with synchronous vs async, could it? I'm not sure. It's logged as connected with a user speed of 10MB/s, but "goal" and "current" speeds of 3.3MB/s. But still, 3.3MB/s is a long way off 21KB/s - even allowing for SCSI protocol overheads :-) It certainly didn't say at boot time that it was async, anyway. The TTi adapter board inside the drive seems to be an interceptor mainly for the front panel - SCSI in from the HBA on the one side, then SCSI out to the Exabyte EXB-8500 drive on the other. In other words, I don't know of a way of seeing what the bus between the intercept board and the drive itself is doing - it's quite possible there's a problem there. Unfortunately the EXB-8500 drive seems to have been modified firmware-wise as part of the TTi setup; it refuses to talk direct to the HBA and doesn't even show up in an inquiry at boot time. Looks like it'll *only* cooperate with the TTi intercept board. Either that or it's utterly, utterly broken. The only other possibilities are the unknown jumpers on the back of the main unit are running the drive in some sort of restricted mode, or there's some weird vendor-unique command that needs to be sent to the drive to kick it into high gear. If someone has a known-working one of these TTi units and can at least quote me their jumper settings off the back, that would be useful! 10-12 control the SCSI ID (as someone's scribbled that on the drive in pen), but I have no idea what the other 9 are for. If it comes to it, I'll just leave the thing running for a day and a half... From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri May 11 06:27:44 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 08:27:44 -0300 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca><009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46434747.40805@jetnet.ab.ca><009801c79385$e29e7f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4643539D.9040909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00c501c793bf$c3290330$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Arg! I am downloading the wrong software ... I want atmel winCUPL . > ( Stops download -- since I can't get the serial proms for a altera fpga. > I knew I had a reason for not using FPGA's.) Take a good look at cypress CPLDs, they don't need serial proms for bitstream loading ;o) From gordon at gjcp.net Fri May 11 05:22:54 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:22:54 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 10:47 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/05/2007 10:20, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 11/05/2007 08:13, r.stricklin wrote: > > >> How hard is it to use Google? > > > > Using Google *and* the search engines on two suppliers sites we use > > found adapters, including the one I referred to, that *claim* to work > > but don't (or don't work straight off). > > I should have said that the specific one I was testing earlier this week > came with Mac OS X drivers, but they don't work. It also had drivers > for earlier Mac OS but we had nothing to try those on. It wasn't a > Keyspan one, though; they tend to cost a lot more here (cheapest I can > find is about US$40 equivalent an upwards as opposed to just over a > third of that for the one I tried) but I'm off to order one now. What drivers? It's a USB-to-Serial adaptor - it should be a class-compliant device. I have never come across one that actually needed additional drivers to work in MacOS X or Linux. I haven't tried one in Windows, but past experience suggests that it needs drivers for *everything*. Gordon From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri May 11 06:30:27 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:30:27 +0200 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464453D3.4080805@iais.fraunhofer.de> Richard A. Cini schrieb: > I looked there originally but they don't seem to offer the sound board at > this point. They have a few parts, but that's it. No manuals or schematics > that I can see, and no "support" link. > Follow the link to the old webserver at reactivecomputers.gotdns.com and look into Public. -- Holger From jzg22 at drexel.edu Fri May 11 09:00:50 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:00:50 -0400 Subject: Big pile of VAX documentation to be disposed In-Reply-To: <200705030654.l436rjmq008498@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705030654.l436rjmq008498@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46447712.9090709@drexel.edu> >There is a large pile of VAX and other documentation waiting for >disposal on the 7th floor of Disque Hall at Drexel University in >Philadelphia. >Disque hall is located on the former 32nd street between market and >chestnut streets, its the tall(~10 floors)) brick building. >Pretty much everything paper, and a working Phaser 370? printer (missing >its paper tray and missing the centronics->microcentronics adapter but >otherwise working) is free for the taking. >This documentation originally went along with the VAX machine which >someone from the list rescued from there about 2 years ago when it was >being disposed. This is all still there. I found the VAX installation manual and license PAK buried in a seperate pile behind some fuzzy wall panels (I have it cached at home now), so there's also some networking manuals and other stuff behind there in grey binders in additional to the 22 orange binders of VAX stuff. This stuff IS going to be disposed of eventually, so I suggest anyone who wants it to get it QUICK. Theres also a bunch of printouts, schematics, software manuals, and source code listings for some old CERN-associated neutrino experiment which was run years ago, if anyone is interested in that. Jonathan Gevaryahu From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri May 11 10:22:46 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:22:46 -0400 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <4affc5e0705110822r302b4daan3d7243cb84ab367a@mail.gmail.com> On 11/05/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > What drivers? It's a USB-to-Serial adaptor - it should be a > class-compliant device. I have never come across one that actually > needed additional drivers to work in MacOS X or Linux. I haven't tried > one in Windows, but past experience suggests that it needs drivers for > *everything*. >From my experience, the "driver" for class-compliant devices tends to be just a file saying "Manufacturer ID XXXX product ID YYYY is a device using driver C:\WINDOWS\system32\genericclassdevice.dll" It then ties the IDs and the location on the USB tree (!) to that driver. Dumb. (!) Yes, the location on the tree. We set up a lab here at McGill with 2 USB devices standard for each workstation: TI DSP eval board, and a USB oscilloscope. We then imaged the main station (with the CodeComposer software which takes about 3hrs to install: WTF? lazy programming I guess...) with the drivers (custom, from the mfg. CD's) for the two USB devices... Once the images were copied onto the student workstations and they got powered up, both USB devices demanded drivers to be installed because the devices were plugged into different USB ports than they were on the main station! Argh! (More frustrating than it sounds because we didn't know that this was the problem, of course. We had to go around 12 workstations and sequentially install the driver 1, reboot, install driver 2, reboot... ugh.) That is beyond dumb. That is broken by design. Joe. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 11 10:37:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:37:05 -0400 Subject: FC drive interconnects? Message-ID: I was staring at a Seagate "fiber channel" drive today and trying to figure out what the most economical method of attaching a few to a box would be. Seagate made a line of STxxxxFC drives with a small D-connector (like a narrow SCA connector) that presumably has power, unit ID lines, and, of course, the drive's part of the FC loop for data in/out. I know there are a number of Sun boxes (3500? 5500?) that have compatible connectors right there in the CPU box - you just drop the drives into bays in the front of the machine and off you go. Presuming you have something older, with PCI or Sbus, say, what options are there for using these drives? I know there are PCI (PCI-X?) FC-AL-over-copper SCSI controllers. What has me puzzled is what the options are for the interconnects - drive bays, external connections (copper vs fiber) for said bays, copper-to-fiber converters, etc. If one wants to hang a wad of drives off of a server, it seems that an 8-drive bay or whatever, with a fiber attachment to an Sbus or PCI fiber card makes sense. If one has, say, a PCI SCSI controller with an FC-over-copper external connector, or just wants to hook up one or two drives, are there any inexpensive interconnect options, like, say, the SCA-to-68-pin adapter boards that are an inexpensive way to use an SCA drives in an non-SCA environment? Of course the answer might just be, "no... the drives are the cheap part of an FC-based storage scheme", but given how cheap FC drives seem to be these days (plus the added bonus of fiber-attached drives being allowed to be a couple of kilometers from your server via single-mode fiber ;-) it seems like an option worth exploring. My direct FC-AL experience is a bit old - I used to run SPARCserver 1000 with three pre-FC-AL disk boxes with 3 drawers each of up to seven 2GB SCA-connector drives. I think one or two members on the list might have one of these. It was nice in its day (10+ years ago), but a lot of juice and a lot of heat for your 42GB (you _might_ have been able to install 4GB drives, but no larger due to firmware limitations in the box). I did get to fiddle with what I think might have been an early proper FC-AL box with a stack of 9GB drives, but I didn't get to play with it long enough to have many details stick in my mind about it. For now, though, my best Sun box just has a couple of 18GB SCA-connector drives. Effective, but boring. Thanks for any info on FC-over-copper interconnects and adapters. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 11 10:37:16 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 16:37:16 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <46448DAC.50303@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 11:22, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > What drivers? It's a USB-to-Serial adaptor - it should be a > class-compliant device. Many aren't -- including, according to one webpage I saw, some of the Keyspan ones bear mentioned. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 11 11:37:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:37:47 -0600 Subject: Big pile of VAX documentation to be disposed In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 11 May 2007 10:00:50 -0400. <46447712.9090709@drexel.edu> Message-ID: In article <46447712.9090709 at drexel.edu>, Jonathan Gevaryahu writes: > This is all still there. [...] I guess the implication is that we have to show up physically to get it? That counts me out... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 11 11:41:57 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 09:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <46448DAC.50303@dunnington.plus.com> from Pete Turnbull at "May 11, 7 04:37:16 pm" Message-ID: <200705111641.l4BGfvpV017912@floodgap.com> > > What drivers? It's a USB-to-Serial adaptor - it should be a > > class-compliant device. > > Many aren't -- including, according to one webpage I saw, some of the > Keyspan ones bear mentioned. Besides, class compliant only means that the USB device designer went to class a couple times. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Bomb Victims Still Trying To Pick Up The Pieces ------------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 11 11:45:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 09:45:35 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46444E6A.9030009@yahoo.co.uk> References: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46443F7A.10406@dunnington.plus.com>, <46444E6A.9030009@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46443B3F.6655.5AB01F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2007 at 6:07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Unfortunately the EXB-8500 drive seems to have been modified firmware-wise as > part of the TTi setup; it refuses to talk direct to the HBA and doesn't even > show up in an inquiry at boot time. Looks like it'll *only* cooperate with the > TTi intercept board. Either that or it's utterly, utterly broken. Bingo on the firmware, I think. We had a miserable time with it-- long blocks being one of the biggest issues. TTi did notify us too late (after we'd published our list) that they had updated firmware, but we never did any further work with them after the initial go- round. You might want to find someone with an 8510 with a later firmware rev and see if you can use that--or just try the generic Exabyte 8500 firmware and forget about TTi's little board. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 11 12:19:33 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 12:19:33 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46443B3F.6655.5AB01F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46443F7A.10406@dunnington.plus.com>, <46444E6A.9030009@yahoo.co.uk> <46443B3F.6655.5AB01F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4644A5A5.1010906@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 May 2007 at 6:07, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Unfortunately the EXB-8500 drive seems to have been modified firmware-wise as >> part of the TTi setup; it refuses to talk direct to the HBA and doesn't even >> show up in an inquiry at boot time. Looks like it'll *only* cooperate with the >> TTi intercept board. Either that or it's utterly, utterly broken. > > Bingo on the firmware, I think. We had a miserable time with it-- > long blocks being one of the biggest issues. Well all was not lost as it turns out - that first tape only contained 160MB of data out of a possible x GB, so it's finished! I'm not getting anything out of the other tape though - I can't even drag any raw data off it using dd, which I would have thought should be possible. Either the tape's broken or the drive just plain doesn't like it for some reason (this is the proper data cartridge too - it was the backup to video tape that's read successfully) > You might want to find someone with an 8510 with a later firmware rev > and see if you can use that--or just try the generic Exabyte 8500 > firmware and forget about TTi's little board. Yep.... It looks like TTi went to a lot of trouble / expense to turn a reliable drive into an unreliable one, all for the sake of a bit of front-panel status info :-( cheers J. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri May 11 12:30:05 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:30:05 -0400 Subject: FC drive interconnects? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200705111330.05997.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 11 May 2007 11:37, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was staring at a Seagate "fiber channel" drive today and trying to > figure out what the most economical method of attaching a few to a > box would be. Seagate made a line of STxxxxFC drives with a small > D-connector (like a narrow SCA connector) that presumably has power, > unit ID lines, and, of course, the drive's part of the FC loop for > data in/out. I know there are a number of Sun boxes (3500? 5500?) > that have compatible connectors right there in the CPU box - you just > drop the drives into bays in the front of the machine and off you go. > Presuming you have something older, with PCI or Sbus, say, what > options are there for using these drives? The connector is a standard 40-pin FCAL SCA connector, and is used by basically every available FC drive. There are some things you can get called "T" adapters to hook up individual drives, or you can get a multi-drive enclosure to hook up multiple drives. The enclosures generally come in two different forms - one with integrated raid controllers, and straight FC-AL drive enclosures. As far as the controller goes, there's a 1Gb FC-AL SBUS card that Sun has to connect to their storage gear (no idea if it'll actually work with just any FC gear, or if it has to be one of Sun's things, I seem to remember it'll sorta work with non-sun gear, but can't remember for sure), or you can use one of a few different 1Gb FC HBAs. With the HBAs, you can go either copper of fiber (whichever matches your drive enclosures). I've had really good luck with Qlogic's QLA2200 and QLA2100 cards, which are also pretty cheaply available on ebay (<$20 ea). Ethan, if you're gonna be going to Dayton this year, I can haul some FC gear with me, if you want some enclosures, cables, PCI HBAs, etc. I've got plenty of extra gear right now, which I could stand to divest myself of some of. :) If you're interested, catch me off-list. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 11 12:54:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:54:24 -0400 Subject: FC drive interconnects? In-Reply-To: <200705111330.05997.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200705111330.05997.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 5/11/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 11 May 2007 11:37, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I was staring at a Seagate "fiber channel" drive today and trying to > > figure out what the most economical method of attaching a few to a > > box would be... > > The connector is a standard 40-pin FCAL SCA connector, and is used by > basically every available FC drive. I figured it was a standard, but I had a memory that the early 9GB FC drives I played with at Lucent had either some form of edge connector or something not centered along the axis of the drive - i.e. - non-standard or obsolete standard. > There are some things you can get called "T" adapters to hook up > individual drives, or you can get a multi-drive enclosure to hook up > multiple drives. The enclosures generally come in two different > forms - one with integrated raid controllers, and straight FC-AL drive > enclosures. Hmm... I think "T adapter" was the phrase I was hunting for. Also, I would expect that an integrated RAID controller would require some sort of host-based configuration software? > With the HBAs, you can go either copper of fiber (whichever matches your > drive enclosures). I've had really good luck with Qlogic's QLA2200 and > QLA2100 cards, which are also pretty cheaply available on ebay (<$20 > ea). I've seen a couple of cards floating around that appear to be a Qlogic 2210, based on stickers on the cards. Perhaps they are just QLA2200s. > Ethan, if you're gonna be going to Dayton this year, I can haul some FC > gear with me, if you want some enclosures, cables, PCI HBAs, etc. I've > got plenty of extra gear right now, which I could stand to divest > myself of some of. :) If you're interested, catch me off-list. Hmm... I would _like_ to be at Dayton, but I'm trying to arrange how to still be permitted to put in 40 hours for the week (hourly contracting and all of that). A day off without pay is rather expensive. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 11 12:50:12 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 18:50:12 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0705110822r302b4daan3d7243cb84ab367a@mail.gmail.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <4affc5e0705110822r302b4daan3d7243cb84ab367a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4644ACD4.2030605@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 16:22, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Once the images were copied onto the > student workstations and they got powered up, both USB devices > demanded drivers to be installed because the devices were plugged into > different USB ports than they were on the main station! Argh! (More > frustrating than it sounds because we didn't know that this was the > problem, of course. We had to go around 12 workstations and > sequentially install the driver 1, reboot, install driver 2, reboot... > ugh.) > > That is beyond dumb. That is broken by design. Yep, this sounds not unlike the problem of using a USB to serial adapter which only gets plugged in when needed. I always use the same serial adapter, but sometimes it shows up as COM3, sometimes as COM6, sometimes as COM15, etc, even when it's plugged into the same USB port (this is under Win XP). It wouldn't matter, except that hyperterminal needs to know which COM port, and it's stored in the settings file, so I end up guessing which settings file to pick. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 11 13:01:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 14:01:32 -0400 Subject: FC drive interconnects? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B053826-C591-465C-B193-3FB903ACEC62@neurotica.com> On May 11, 2007, at 11:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was staring at a Seagate "fiber channel" drive today and trying to > figure out what the most economical method of attaching a few to a box > would be. This is about as off-topic as can be, but I use a lot of FC storage at home and at work, so I can answer your questions below. > Seagate made a line of STxxxxFC drives with a small > D-connector (like a narrow SCA connector) that presumably has power, > unit ID lines, and, of course, the drive's part of the FC loop for > data in/out. I know there are a number of Sun boxes (3500? 5500?) > that have compatible connectors right there in the CPU box - you just > drop the drives into bays in the front of the machine and off you go. Lots of bigger Suns have integral FC storage...Ex500, Sun Fire x80R, etc. It verrah nice. :) > Presuming you have something older, with PCI or Sbus, say, what > options are there for using these drives? > > I know there are PCI (PCI-X?) FC-AL-over-copper SCSI controllers. > What has me puzzled is what the options are for the interconnects - > drive bays, external connections (copper vs fiber) for said bays, > copper-to-fiber converters, etc. If one wants to hang a wad of drives > off of a server, it seems that an 8-drive bay or whatever, with a > fiber attachment to an Sbus or PCI fiber card makes sense. If one > has, say, a PCI SCSI controller with an FC-over-copper external > connector, or just wants to hook up one or two drives, are there any > inexpensive interconnect options, like, say, the SCA-to-68-pin adapter > boards that are an inexpensive way to use an SCA drives in an non-SCA > environment? First, controller cards..."HBA" (Host-Bus Adapter) in FC parlance. FibreChannel is basically the SCSI command set over a very different, very fast, very well-designed communications medium that can also be used for other protocols such as TCP/IP. There are HBA cards available for all the major buses you'd be worried about (PCI and its later variants, Sbus, etc) from both Sun and other manufacturers (JNI, HP). There are different speeds of FC...1Gbps is the most common, with 2Gbps becoming more common and less expensive nowadays. 4Gbps is becoming available. Generally speaking, the people who aren't worried about upgrading for the sake of upgrading are saving thousands of dollars by sticking with 1Gbps FC. For 1Gbps FC on a PCI machine, the HBA cards to look for are Qlogic QLA-2100/QLA-2200 series, Emulex LP7000/LP8000, or JNI FCI-1063/FCE-6410 series, depending on platform and OS. For Sbus, I recommend a JNI FC64-1063. All of the above are available cheaply on eBay (for example) at any given time. Expect to pay anywhere from $10 to $30. JNI's drivers don't readily support Solaris10, but work fine with earlier releases. Qlogic QLA-2200 (and up) cards work out-of-the-box with Solaris10, and drivers are available for earlier releases. The Qlogic cards also work fine with the BSDs and Linux. Emulex has drivers for various releases of Solaris. SGI machines will use the Qlogic cards. FC HBA cards vary in the type of interface they present. Fiber is generally on FC connectors (assuming 1Gbps FC...other speeds use different connectors), and copper is usually on an HSSDC connector (looks like a flat/wide RJ-series connector) but may be on a DE-9. Some HBA cards have a slot for a GBIC, which is a plug-in physical layer interface module that's the same idea as an Ethernet transceiver, and can have any of the above types of external interfaces. Now you need a way to talk to the drive. If you want to put just one drive in a chassis (which is NOT how FC was designed to work, but enterprising folk have produced the necessary hardware), you need what's known as a "T-card". Do an eBay search for these...they are cheap, a few dollars apiece if memory serves. It plugs into the back of the drive and breaks out the power connector to a standard drive connector, the device select pins to a jumper block, and the FC interface itself to other connectors, usually a DE-9. They usually have provisions for daisy-chaining more than one T-card together for multiple drive use. Get one of those, plug it all in, and you're all set. For more than one or two drives, you should get an "FC chassis". These are cheap and readily available...for the "bare bones" ones (most of them out there fall under this category) it basically functions like a whole bunch of T-cards strung together (but of course isn't implemented as such). Most FC chassis will usually have either GBIC sockets, DE-9 or HSSDC connectors for FC over copper. One series I'm partial to is made by EuroLogic, commonly available as "NetApp FC shelves" such as the FC-7, FC-8, and FC-9. These are cheap and readily available on eBay...I bought an FC-9 on eBay full of 36GB drives *three years ago* for, I think, $80. The FC-[789] are almost identical, have copper FC interfaces on DE-9 connectors (daisy- chainable to multiple chassis, FC supports 126 devices per chain), have slots for seven drives in hot-swap cans and have dual power supplies. They are LOUD (think "hair dryer") but they are built like tanks and are cheap & readily available. Another nice chassis is the Sun A5100/A5200. These are gorgeous, have a nice built-in monitoring system with keypad & display, and have GBIC slots to support whatever FC interconnect medium you want to use. The A5100 holds 14 1.6"-height drives and the A5200 holds (IIRC) 21 1"-height drives, all on standard Sun "Spud" brackets. Later, you can pick up an FC switch (same idea as an Ethernet switch, for the same reasons), hang your FC chassis off a switch port, and plug all of your machines into other switch ports. The obvious thing will happen. If you want to mount filesystems on multiple machines simultaneously, be sure the filesystem supports that, or make sure only one of the mounts is read-write. A nice 8- port FC switch can be had anytime on eBay for less than $40. All of this stuff falls under the "just plug it in and it works" category. My personal FC installation consists of a pair of DEC HSG80 FC RAID controllers in a redundant failover configuration plugged into a Compaq (relabeled Brocade) 8-port FC switch, an HP 40- slot FC-connected DLT8000 juke plugged into another port, and five Sun boxes (Sun Fire 280R, E3500, multiple Netra T1-105s). I have a NetApp FC-7 and FC-9 that I just decommissioned after moving data onto the FC-connected RAID array. > Of course the answer might just be, "no... the drives are the cheap > part of an FC-based storage scheme", This used to be the answer, but not anymore. :-) > but given how cheap FC drives > seem to be these days (plus the added bonus of fiber-attached drives > being allowed to be a couple of kilometers from your server via > single-mode fiber ;-) it seems like an option worth exploring. It's definitely worth exploring. The performance and reliability are great, parts are readily available, and OS support is widespread. If you move in this direction, feel free to contact me directly for assistance or advice. I've done a lot with FC (I won't trust large amounts of data to anything else!) and can point you in the right direction and/or help you find the right stuff to do what you want to do. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spc at conman.org Fri May 11 13:34:03 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 14:34:03 -0400 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <20070511183403.GA26228@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Gordon JC Pearce once stated: > > What drivers? It's a USB-to-Serial adaptor - it should be a > class-compliant device. I have never come across one that actually > needed additional drivers to work in MacOS X or Linux. I haven't tried > one in Windows, but past experience suggests that it needs drivers for > *everything*. I recently got a USB-to-Serial adaptor (I deal with the routers and switches at work). Under Windows I had to install a driver. On my Linux computer (a recent Linux install) it just worked. On my Linux laptop (with an older Linux install) it didn't. -spc (Go figure) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 11 13:57:30 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FC drive interconnects? In-Reply-To: <3B053826-C591-465C-B193-3FB903ACEC62@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 11, 2007 02:01:32 PM Message-ID: <200705111857.l4BIvUQl001104@onyx.spiritone.com> > This is about as off-topic as can be, but I use a lot of FC > storage at home and at work, so I can answer your questions below. I'm not so sure that it is, it's reaching the point where older computers are likely to be able to work with FC. In any case I suspect this is likely to be of interest to several people here. I know I'm interested. I'd love to be able to add a FC Disk Shelf at some point to my VMS Server. Though that's counterproductive to my wanting to make it quieter and use less power... > Lots of bigger Suns have integral FC storage...Ex500, Sun Fire > x80R, etc. It verrah nice. :) So do some of the smaller ones. The SunBlade 1000 I have supports two internal FC Disks. I forget if I have a pair of 18GB or 36GB drives in it. Zane From bpope at wordstock.com Fri May 11 14:16:31 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 15:16:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: <46426F4D.4040707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070511191631.3437E58A00@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Mike Maginnis > > Henry (GSE-Reactive's proprietor) can be reached at: > > hscourbis at gse-reactive.com > > General support: > > support at gse-reactive.com > > - Mike > > Richard A. Cini wrote: > > I looked there originally but they don't seem to offer the sound board at > > this point. They have a few parts, but that's it. No manuals or schematics > > that I can see, and no "support" link. > > > > > > On 5/9/07 7:50 AM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 8 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> > >>> All: > >>> > >>> I?ve done a bit of searching for this but can?t locate it. Does anyone > >>> have a scannable copy of the schematic for the Mockingboard sound board for > >>> the Apple II? > >> The folks at GSE Reactive have revived the Mockingboard as a product. One > >> presumes they have the schematic available: > >> > >> http://www.gse-reactive.com/ > >> IIRC, GSE Reactive is going to be a vendor at the upcoming VCF East... Cheers, Bryan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 11 15:09:17 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 16:09:17 -0400 Subject: FC drive interconnects? In-Reply-To: <200705111857.l4BIvUQl001104@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200705111857.l4BIvUQl001104@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <2DEF71B9-8479-4202-BB80-2BD160623CA2@neurotica.com> On May 11, 2007, at 2:57 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> This is about as off-topic as can be, but I use a lot of FC >> storage at home and at work, so I can answer your questions below. > > I'm not so sure that it is, it's reaching the point where older > computers > are likely to be able to work with FC. Well my statement was based on the thought that discussion of one of the most modern storage interconnects in existence has precisely jack squat to do with classic computing. ;) > In any case I suspect this is > likely to be of interest to several people here. I know I'm > interested. > I'd love to be able to add a FC Disk Shelf at some point to my VMS > Server. > Though that's counterproductive to my wanting to make it quieter > and use > less power... Indeed, but speed is nice, as are the cheap megabytes. Assuming it's got a PCI bus, IIRC the FCA you'll need is a KGPSA, which (again IIRC) is a relabeled Emulex LP-series board. Properly configured, an Alpha can even boot from a SAN over that card. >> Lots of bigger Suns have integral FC storage...Ex500, Sun Fire >> x80R, etc. It verrah nice. :) > > So do some of the smaller ones. The SunBlade 1000 I have supports two > internal FC Disks. I forget if I have a pair of 18GB or 36GB > drives in it. Ahh, yes indeed. I've not used any desktop Suns that are that recent. All of my Sun "direct GUI use" transitioned several years ago to Sun Ray thin clients backed by beefy machines (E3500 until just recently, now Sun Fire 280R). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From blakespot at gmail.com Fri May 11 09:25:44 2007 From: blakespot at gmail.com (Blake Patterson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:25:44 -0400 Subject: [pic] retro computing tattoo (a little different...) Message-ID: <4b7d63a40705110725t56fae4e4rf59561d20d670cc7@mail.gmail.com> A bit of a different post here, but I thought folks on this list might get a kick out of the tattoo I had inked this week, branding me for all eternity as one with retro computing in my blood (and on my skin). A sort of crude petroglyph from the walls of the cave of computing history. http://www.bytecellar.com/archives/000105.php bp -- Heisenberg may have slept here. From gilcarrick at tx.rr.com Fri May 11 10:06:51 2007 From: gilcarrick at tx.rr.com (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:06:51 -0500 Subject: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005501c793de$01e312f0$0500a8c0@Gils6240> We are probably going to be drastically curtailing our museum efforts and perhaps shifting to a new affiliation if I can pull it off. As a start to lightening the load we are scanning as many of the manuals as we can. (We have a pretty nice scanner and some office assistants who occasionally have extra time that they need to look busy in.) I will be placing the scanned manuals on our web site, but for the time being there will be no link to the directory. You may feel free to download any of them you like. If you want to download everything that will be OK, but try to do it in the early morning hours U.S. Central Standard time. The university has a pretty good connection, but we don't want to swamp it during the day. If you seen anything that you would like to have in hard copy I will be happy to mail it to you. Payment of the postage and some token payment for the manual would be appreciated. You can contact me via email to arrange such a payment. If you see anything here that you think should not be available because of copyright limitations please let me know. I assume that since these manuals are all nearly 30 years old that nobody will care. Of course something may slip through the cracks and some large vendors still exist and might care for legal reasons, but I don't have time to sort that all out right now. Here is the link: http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/Manuals%20Scanned/ If you have any comments I would like to hear them. Gil -- A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 11 15:57:32 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:57:32 -0700 Subject: Manuals being scanned Message-ID: <4644D8BC.4010205@bitsavers.org> > If you have any comments I would like to hear them. Do you have any other Memorex system documents? I have a fair bit on the MRX 70 under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/memorex/7x00 but I didn't have the RPG design document. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri May 11 15:58:19 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 16:58:19 -0400 Subject: Lode Runner [Re: ftp archives disappearing?] In-Reply-To: <200703180241.WAA26730@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5dc6fd9e0703152203u23c31054w80235203818b2038@mail.gmail.com> <200703160510.l2G5AcoI017586@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152224t5643fa77ke9d53aa86231e283@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0703152243q5e070d0t53d075f955f48ee2@mail.gmail.com> <00f501c76790$1b8b6420$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703152307k4249acc8lc5e1857b0f523333@mail.gmail.com> <010001c76794$5be937a0$0b01a8c0@game> <5dc6fd9e0703171428s9ea40c1w528c98e2fad5c7d1@mail.gmail.com> <20070317144944.M35039@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0703171501qbd6fed3ya53b8e480fc39404@mail.gmail.com> <20070317151100.I35039@shell.lmi.net> <200703180241.WAA26730@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4644D8EB.4000004@sbcglobal.net> der Mouse wrote: >> "Which level of Lode-Runner had a missing section of ladder that made >> that level impossible?" > > Oh my, good old Lode Runner. I remember that game. Seriously > addictive. It's one of the reasons I have a 68000-based Mac around > still even though I generally don't keep anything that can't run > NetNSD. (It's not set up, though - I should fix that....) > > I don't recall that level, though. Perhaps I never made it that far > into the game. I should see if I can dig out the machine and the Lode > Runner disk...perhaps I can run it under emulation. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Finally made it to this message... I have LodeRunner on my Treo600. :) I wonder how much of it is really the original levels? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 11 16:04:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 16:04:17 -0500 Subject: [pic] retro computing tattoo (a little different...) In-Reply-To: <4b7d63a40705110725t56fae4e4rf59561d20d670cc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b7d63a40705110725t56fae4e4rf59561d20d670cc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4644DA51.6060603@yahoo.co.uk> Blake Patterson wrote: > A bit of a different post here, but I thought folks on this list might > get a kick out of the tattoo I had inked this week, branding me for > all eternity as one with retro computing in my blood (and on my skin). Heh... pacman ghost on the other side? Nicely done! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 11 04:26:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 03:26:13 -0600 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <00c501c793bf$c3290330$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca><009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46434747.40805@jetnet.ab.ca><009801c79385$e29e7f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4643539D.9040909@jetnet.ab.ca> <00c501c793bf$c3290330$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <464436B5.2060000@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Arg! I am downloading the wrong software ... I want atmel winCUPL . >> ( Stops download -- since I can't get the serial proms for a altera fpga. >> I knew I had a reason for not using FPGA's.) > > Take a good look at cypress CPLDs, they don't need serial proms for > bitstream loading ;o) > . I CPLD's I have can be programed with the kit I have. The software is not the problem. Building a computer is a big problem since I am doing from scratch. The software/hardware is easy, building it is hard since I have little PCB experience. Software is hard to since I need a simple compiler to port ( Tiny C 1.0 I can port, but not later versions ). From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 11 16:27:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 17:27:45 -0400 Subject: FC drive interconnects? In-Reply-To: <200705111330.05997.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200705111330.05997.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <113E30C8-F907-4A4A-B1FE-36030A2E8F75@neurotica.com> On May 11, 2007, at 1:30 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > As far as the controller goes, there's a 1Gb FC-AL SBUS card that Sun > has to connect to their storage gear (no idea if it'll actually work > with just any FC gear, or if it has to be one of Sun's things, I seem > to remember it'll sorta work with non-sun gear, but can't remember for > sure), or you can use one of a few different 1Gb FC HBAs. They're compatible with pretty much any FC hardware. I've not found one box that won't work with a Sun HBA. The only problem I've run into is that the Sun FibreChannel controller chip used in the Ex500 machines (called "SOC") won't work in fabric mode (i.e., with a switch)...it only supports FC-AL (Fibre Channel-Arbitrated Loop), which is what you get when you don't use an FC switch. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rcini at optonline.net Fri May 11 16:34:34 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 17:34:34 -0400 Subject: IBM floppy termination Message-ID: All: I have a few IBM-labeled YE-Data YE-580 (320k/360k) half-height floppy drives. I can?t seem to locate a manual for these on-line so I wondered if they use the standard 150 ohm terminator or something else (the Teac uses 330 ohm for example). Any info appreciated. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 11 17:21:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 15:21:27 -0700 Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464489F7.1763.6DE8242@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2007 at 17:34, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I have a few IBM-labeled YE-Data YE-580 (320k/360k) half-height floppy > drives. I can?t seem to locate a manual for these on-line so I wondered if > they use the standard 150 ohm terminator or something else (the Teac uses > 330 ohm for example). I don't know if these are the same as those described in the IBM O&A as the "Slimline Diskette Drive", but if they are, the terminators shown are 150 ohm. If U1 on the drive PCB is a 74LS123, these are them. I have a few YD-380 720K drives, but the terminators are on 7- position DIP switches and appear to be abou 3.3K. Cheers, Chcuk From ragooman at comcast.net Fri May 11 17:40:47 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 18:40:47 -0400 Subject: [pic] retro computing tattoo (a little different...) In-Reply-To: <4b7d63a40705110725t56fae4e4rf59561d20d670cc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b7d63a40705110725t56fae4e4rf59561d20d670cc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4644F0EF.5060307@comcast.net> cool, how about an ascii art tattoo =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Blake Patterson wrote: > A bit of a different post here, but I thought folks on this list might > get a kick out of the tattoo I had inked this week, branding me for > all eternity as one with retro computing in my blood (and on my skin). > > A sort of crude petroglyph from the walls of the cave of computing > history. > > http://www.bytecellar.com/archives/000105.php > > > > > bp > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 18:08:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 00:08:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini" at May 11, 7 05:34:34 pm Message-ID: > > All: > > I have a few IBM-labeled YE-Data YE-580 (320k/360k) half-height floppy > drives. I can=B9t seem to locate a manual for these on-line so I wondered if > they use the standard 150 ohm terminator or something else (the Teac uses > 330 ohm for example). > > Any info appreciated. Thanks. Err, shouldn't the value of the termination resistor be determined by the characteristic impedance of the cable, not by any property of the drive's electronics? In other words, a standard ribbon cable should always have a 150Ohm, or thereabouts, terminator. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 17:58:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 23:58:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wirelist for HP9000/200 RS232 cable In-Reply-To: <4643AF7A.5030907@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at May 10, 7 04:49:14 pm Message-ID: > > The schematic for the 98626 is at > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/9000_dio/98626-90000_RS232_May82.pdf Yes, I;'ve read that manual. And while it contains a schematic of the card, DIP swithc settings, pinouts of the microribbon connector, etc, the one thing it _does not_ contain is the wirelist of the cable. It may appear to be obvious -- just match up the signal anmes on the microribbon connector with the RS232 names -- but I'd still like to be sure. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 11 18:44:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 16:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: <464489F7.1763.6DE8242@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464489F7.1763.6DE8242@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070511164049.U1489@shell.lmi.net> > On 11 May 2007 at 17:34, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > I have a few IBM-labeled YE-Data YE-580 (320k/360k) half-height floppy > > drives. I can?t seem to locate a manual for these on-line so I wondered if > > they use the standard 150 ohm terminator or something else (the Teac uses > > 330 ohm for example). On Fri, 11 May 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know if these are the same as those described in the IBM O&A > as the "Slimline Diskette Drive", The first half-height drives in IBM machines were the Qumetrak 142. They were so slow that PC-DOS 2.10 had to set a slower access time than 2.00 They were slightly more reliable than the BASF 2/3 height - less than 100% DOA. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 11 19:04:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 17:04:02 -0700 Subject: Early MSC HD controller Message-ID: <4644A202.26283.73C6BD2@cclist.sydex.com> I've posted a photo of my Microcomputer Systems Corporation SA4000-to- GPIB disk controller PCB here: http://www.sydex.com/durango/msc1088.jpg This is a large board (12"x19")that contains mostly 74LSxx logic. The two 24-pin cerdip packages at the top left side are AM2506DC 4- bit ALUs; the 28-pin package below them is a N8209 (Signetics) 64x9 bipolar RAM. The 40 pin package to the left of them is an Intel 8291 GPIB talker/listener. The Just thought I'd snap a photo before it went back into its box. The documentation for the board (just command definitions) is dated 1979. FWIW, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Fri May 11 21:42:52 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 22:42:52 -0400 Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: <464489F7.1763.6DE8242@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Interestingly, the IC1 on this drive is a QFP chip from Hitachi (HA16642MP). The PC board revision is "Rev. C" so maybe that's part of it. I think this is probably an AT-era drive but I thought the base AT came with 1.2mb drives? Maybe an option? On 5/11/07 6:21 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 11 May 2007 at 17:34, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> I have a few IBM-labeled YE-Data YE-580 (320k/360k) half-height floppy >> drives. I can?t seem to locate a manual for these on-line so I wondered if >> they use the standard 150 ohm terminator or something else (the Teac uses >> 330 ohm for example). > > I don't know if these are the same as those described in the IBM O&A > as the "Slimline Diskette Drive", but if they are, the terminators > shown are 150 ohm. If U1 on the drive PCB is a 74LS123, these are > them. > > I have a few YD-380 720K drives, but the terminators are on 7- > position DIP switches and appear to be abou 3.3K. > > Cheers, > Chcuk > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri May 11 21:59:38 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 19:59:38 -0700 Subject: Early MSC HD controller In-Reply-To: <4644A202.26283.73C6BD2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4644A202.26283.73C6BD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46452D9A.7000404@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >I've posted a photo of my Microcomputer Systems Corporation SA4000-to- >GPIB disk controller PCB here: > >http://www.sydex.com/durango/msc1088.jpg > >This is a large board (12"x19")that contains mostly 74LSxx logic. >The two 24-pin cerdip packages at the top left side are AM2506DC 4- >bit ALUs; the 28-pin package below them is a N8209 (Signetics) 64x9 >bipolar RAM. The 40 pin package to the left of them is an Intel 8291 >GPIB talker/listener. The > >Just thought I'd snap a photo before it went back into its box. The >documentation for the board (just command definitions) is dated 1979. > >FWIW, >Chuck > > MSC if I recall correctly morphed into Xebec, who was one of the first if not the first supplieres ot controllers to IBM for the XT. The did make several controller adapters which allowed Microdata to hook up both SMD and 2314 type drives with RF data to our mini computers. They had 25mb drives, which were ISS. Later they made a controller for the Microdata reflex which was supposed to be SMD, but had a flaw in the write splice that made it incompatable, with SMD design. They refused to fix this since it made others unable to sell drives to go on the systems they sold. I guess this controller probably falls in the gap between the minicomputer days, and the micro days of the XT. It would be interesting to have a family tree for this part of the industry, from the company standpoint as well as the people standpoint. A lot of companies had engineers depart and found other storage business companies, and I'm sure MSC / Xebec must have been one. jim From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri May 11 22:11:46 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 04:11:46 +0100 Subject: [pic] retro computing tattoo (a little different...) References: <4b7d63a40705110725t56fae4e4rf59561d20d670cc7@mail.gmail.com> <4644F0EF.5060307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <007d01c79443$47a4f0a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> > how about an ascii art tattoo Just has to be an ASCII Snoopy.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 11 22:32:48 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 20:32:48 -0700 Subject: Manuals being scanned Message-ID: <46453560.9020900@bitsavers.org> > If you have any comments I would like to hear them. OK, I've downloaded some of them now. They are some of the ugliest, bloated pdf's I've ever seen. What are you doing to them to make them look so BAD. "Control Data-Cyber 70 Computer Systems Models 72,73,74,6000 Computer Systems.PDF" for example, appears to have a mix of six different fonts on a single line, where there should be one. The titles are poor. "IBM System-360 Operating System.pdf" is a program logic manual for the Fortran IV graphics programming services. At a minimum, you should have the document part number, date, and the REAL title. Y27-7152-0_F4_Graphic_Programming_Services_Program_Logic_Sep67.pdf provides some useful metadata Look at http://bitsavers.org/pdf for 10,000+ examples of how this SHOULD be done. From davebarnes at adelphia.net Fri May 11 22:52:18 2007 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 23:52:18 -0400 Subject: FC drive interconnects? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sure... go to Ebay and search on 'kalisiak' as the seller... Chris sells 't-card' kits which attach to the back of the drive via the fc connector and provide 9pin out,(standard copper fc db9 connector) and standard power connector. He also used to make some kits which were a standard 5.25" mounting harness and you could put 2-3 fc drives in this, and mount it inside a pc. I have a BUNCH of drives running this way... works well... David Barnes davebarnes AT adelphia DOT net OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix On May 11, 2007, at 11:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was staring at a Seagate "fiber channel" drive today and trying to > figure out what the most economical method of attaching a few to a box > would be. Seagate made a line of STxxxxFC drives with a small > D-connector (like a narrow SCA connector) that presumably has power, > unit ID lines, and, of course, the drive's part of the FC loop for > data in/out. I know there are a number of Sun boxes (3500? 5500?) > that have compatible connectors right there in the CPU box - you just > drop the drives into bays in the front of the machine and off you go. > Presuming you have something older, with PCI or Sbus, say, what > options are there for using these drives? > > I know there are PCI (PCI-X?) FC-AL-over-copper SCSI controllers. > What has me puzzled is what the options are for the interconnects - > drive bays, external connections (copper vs fiber) for said bays, > copper-to-fiber converters, etc. If one wants to hang a wad of drives > off of a server, it seems that an 8-drive bay or whatever, with a > fiber attachment to an Sbus or PCI fiber card makes sense. If one > has, say, a PCI SCSI controller with an FC-over-copper external > connector, or just wants to hook up one or two drives, are there any > inexpensive interconnect options, like, say, the SCA-to-68-pin adapter > boards that are an inexpensive way to use an SCA drives in an non-SCA > environment? > > Of course the answer might just be, "no... the drives are the cheap > part of an FC-based storage scheme", but given how cheap FC drives > seem to be these days (plus the added bonus of fiber-attached drives > being allowed to be a couple of kilometers from your server via > single-mode fiber ;-) it seems like an option worth exploring. > > My direct FC-AL experience is a bit old - I used to run SPARCserver > 1000 with three pre-FC-AL disk boxes with 3 drawers each of up to > seven 2GB SCA-connector drives. I think one or two members on the > list might have one of these. It was nice in its day (10+ years ago), > but a lot of juice and a lot of heat for your 42GB (you _might_ have > been able to install 4GB drives, but no larger due to firmware > limitations in the box). I did get to fiddle with what I think might > have been an early proper FC-AL box with a stack of 9GB drives, but I > didn't get to play with it long enough to have many details stick in > my mind about it. > > For now, though, my best Sun box just has a couple of 18GB > SCA-connector drives. Effective, but boring. > > Thanks for any info on FC-over-copper interconnects and adapters. > > -ethan From evan at snarc.net Fri May 11 23:30:43 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 00:30:43 -0400 Subject: What's the classiccmp IRC address? Message-ID: <002301c7944e$4deee410$6401a8c0@evan> I lost it. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 11 23:29:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 21:29:54 -0700 Subject: Early MSC HD controller In-Reply-To: <46452D9A.7000404@msm.umr.edu> References: <4644A202.26283.73C6BD2@cclist.sydex.com>, <46452D9A.7000404@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4644E052.939.82FD40A@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2007 at 19:59, jim wrote: > MSC if I recall correctly morphed into Xebec, who was one of the first > if not the first supplieres ot controllers to IBM for the XT. I believe that's true. I remember going over to their "incubator" offices off of Mathilda (IIRC) and talking with them about this board. I think they also did tape controller work. As I mentioned, I have the programming spec--it's a longhand-edited version of their stock MSC-1000 controller docs. I have the feeling that they did quite a few "custom" jobs back then, mostly modifying the host-to- controller part to order. Note the many empty DIP positions on the left (host) side of the controller. Also not that there are 2 20- position drive connectors on either side of the 50-position connector on the right side of the board. We didn't ask for the 2nd drive capability and couldn't have used it anyway. Within 2 years, the 5.25" hard drives started making their appearance and we went to a controller card using bipolar 8X300 logic that was the size of an S- 100 card. Things moved very fast back then. Sometime between this unit and the XT controller, I think they went to programmable bit-slice components for their controllers (8X300? 2901?). This one's interesting in that, with the exception of the 8291, it's all discrete logic; no big ROMs or LSI. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 11 23:45:51 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 23:45:51 -0500 Subject: What's the classiccmp IRC address? References: <002301c7944e$4deee410$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <001201c79450$6b651670$6700a8c0@JWEST> #classiccmp on freenode From vrs at msn.com Fri May 11 23:46:34 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 21:46:34 -0700 Subject: Manuals being scanned References: <46453560.9020900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <091b01c79450$872f7f80$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Al Kossow" > > If you have any comments I would like to hear them. > > OK, I've downloaded some of them now. > > They are some of the ugliest, bloated pdf's I've ever seen. > What are you doing to them to make them look so BAD. Looks like they've got an OCR overlay to me. Which is kinda cool, in a way. Makes the text mostly searchable. Admittedly, some of the 2-color pixelation artifacts are distracting. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 12 00:01:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 22:01:10 -0700 Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: References: <464489F7.1763.6DE8242@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4644E7A6.30772.84C75EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2007 at 22:42, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Interestingly, the IC1 on this drive is a QFP chip from Hitachi (HA16642MP). > The PC board revision is "Rev. C" so maybe that's part of it. I think this > is probably an AT-era drive but I thought the base AT came with 1.2mb > drives? Maybe an option? Nope--that'd be the 380. Here's the info and a few specs for the 580: http://ja1wby.art.coocan.jp/hamg/7-fm7-fdd/2-yd-580.html Note that the spec calls for 150 ohm pullups on both the host and drive side. Cheers, Chuck From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sat May 12 02:52:07 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 09:52:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <00c501c793bf$c3290330$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca><009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46434747.40805@jetnet.ab.ca><009801c79385$e29e7f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4643539D.9040909@jetnet.ab.ca> <00c501c793bf$c3290330$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <1232.217.225.118.238.1178956327.squirrel@217.225.118.238> Alexandre Souza said: >> Arg! I am downloading the wrong software ... I want atmel winCUPL . >> ( Stops download -- since I can't get the serial proms for a altera >> fpga. >> I knew I had a reason for not using FPGA's.) > > Take a good look at cypress CPLDs, they don't need serial proms for > bitstream loading ;o) Almost no current CPLDs need serial proms at all. You are mixing up CPLDs and FPGAs, I think. The capacity of CPLDs is by far lower than current FPGAs. -- Holger From paul at frixxon.co.uk Sat May 12 05:49:02 2007 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 11:49:02 +0100 Subject: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <46453560.9020900@bitsavers.org> References: <46453560.9020900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46459B9E.4040706@frixxon.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > They are some of the ugliest, bloated pdf's I've ever seen. > What are you doing to them to make them look so BAD. This is Adobe Capture at work. I had a look at the CP/M manual to see if the OCRed text was overlaid on an original full page image beneath, but unfortunately, the 256-page document consists of 13441 image fragments that couldn't be OCRed. There are no images where text has been OCRed. -- Paul From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat May 12 06:31:11 2007 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 07:31:11 -0400 Subject: ftp archives disappearing? In-Reply-To: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org> References: <45F33D95.4000707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4645A57F.5010802@dragonsweb.org> Al Kossow wrote: > > Has anyone else noticed that ftp search services like archie seem to > > have disappeared > > The web as subsumed all of this, in an inferior fashion, IMHO. > You will notice that bitsavers looks exactly the same as it did as > an anonymous ftp site on its previous host. > > > Should we be working to archive large FTP software repositories? > > Absolutely! And try to find old backups that you have. > Make sure to use something that can preserve file dates of the files. > The old recursive ftp programs didn't do this. > Just now catching up on the list after being too busy (eg., removing foot from mouth, among other things) for a while, and as it happens, I just the other day was reading the 3B2 FAQ and noted that the little.nhlink.net 3B2 archive maintained by Bob Martel had somehow been lost. Happily I had made a mirror some years ago which was still intact, so I'd like to announce that it is now available at ftp://popeye.dragonsweb.org/mirrors/little.nhlink.net/pub/att . I think Bob has some additional material, but he's been trying to restore from old 60 and 120M backup tapes and been having some difficulties there. I found rsync about the simplest way to preserve time and date stamps, file permissions, etc. jbdigriz From rcini at optonline.net Sat May 12 06:48:15 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 07:48:15 -0400 Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: <4644E7A6.30772.84C75EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck: The manufacturers label on the drive says "YD-580 320k/360k". I just tried the drive on my Hawthorne SBC and terminated it with 150 ohms and it works fine. The only thing I noticed is that the drive light stays on after being accessed. There are two jumper positions called HM and HS. HS is open and HM is connected. Any idea as to how make to light follow the select line? Rich On 5/12/07 1:01 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 11 May 2007 at 22:42, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> Interestingly, the IC1 on this drive is a QFP chip from Hitachi (HA16642MP). >> The PC board revision is "Rev. C" so maybe that's part of it. I think this >> is probably an AT-era drive but I thought the base AT came with 1.2mb >> drives? Maybe an option? > > Nope--that'd be the 380. Here's the info and a few specs for the > 580: > > http://ja1wby.art.coocan.jp/hamg/7-fm7-fdd/2-yd-580.html > > Note that the spec calls for 150 ohm pullups on both the host and > drive side. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat May 12 10:20:01 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 11:20:01 -0400 Subject: NETRONICS ELECTRIC MOUTH documentation/software wanted Message-ID: Hi, I have one of these cards that I'd like to demo at VCF East this year. Does anyone have docs and/or software for it? Thanks, Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.8/800 - Release Date: 5/11/2007 7:34 PM From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 12 11:00:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 09:00:31 -0700 Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: References: <4644E7A6.30772.84C75EA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4645822F.4325.AA816A3@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2007 at 7:48, Richard A. Cini wrote: > The only thing I noticed is that the drive light stays on after being > accessed. There are two jumper positions called HM and HS. HS is open and HM > is connected. Any idea as to how make to light follow the select line? I'd have to goof around with one of my own drives, but at a guess, does the LED currently follow the "motor on" signal? If so, try changing both jumpers. If that doesn't do anything, I'll dig a drive out and see if I can make heads or tails of it. There are *lots* of jumpers on the 380--and a head-load solenoid to boot. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 12 12:00:19 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 18:00:19 +0100 Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4645F2A3.5020605@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/05/2007 12:48, Richard A. Cini wrote: > The only thing I noticed is that the drive light stays on after being > accessed. There are two jumper positions called HM and HS. HS is open and HM > is connected. Any idea as to how make to light follow the select line? Those are the standard labels for "Head Load with Motor On" and "Head Load with Drive Select". Removing the jumper from HM and putting it on HS might do what you want. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dgreelish at mac.com Sat May 12 12:17:50 2007 From: dgreelish at mac.com (David Greelish) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 13:17:50 -0400 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . In-Reply-To: <200705121706.l4CH5nn1000622@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705121706.l4CH5nn1000622@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <511CB36E-430C-4AC4-886A-88349C573187@mac.com> Hi everyone, I have just started up a user group in my area to get together once a month and enjoy old computers and the history, etc. I plan to give a short presentation each meeting, bring a few systems, have some retro gaming available and basic refreshments. I'm calling it what I once called a "club" I started years ago - The Historical Computer Society. It will take many meetings and some time, but I hope it can grow and become a true non-profit group on it's own standing with elected officers, etc. - a user group. I have arranged for the space in the public library near my house, every third Saturday, from 2pm - 3:30pm, starting with next Saturday, May 19th. Here's the library, in Fruit Cove, FL, just south of Jacksonville: http://www.sjcpls.org/Branches/BartramTrail.aspx If you're not too far and interested, please let me know. Best, David David Greelish classiccomputing.com The Classic Computing Podcast Home of Computer History Nostalgia Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 12 12:40:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 10:40:43 -0700 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . In-Reply-To: <511CB36E-430C-4AC4-886A-88349C573187@mac.com> References: <200705121706.l4CH5nn1000622@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <511CB36E-430C-4AC4-886A-88349C573187@mac.com> Message-ID: <464599AB.7189.B03D00F@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2007 at 13:17, David Greelish wrote: > Hi everyone, I have just started up a user group in my area to get > together once a month and enjoy old computers and the history, etc. David, some folks local to your area who are also on this list might be more interested if you could nail down what you mean by "old". To some, a Commodore 128 is "old"; others wear socks older than that. Cheers, Chuck "who, with a sharp pencil could be called an old computer" From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat May 12 13:14:36 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 11:14:36 -0700 Subject: Early MSC HD controller In-Reply-To: <4644E052.939.82FD40A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4644A202.26283.73C6BD2@cclist.sydex.com>, <46452D9A.7000404@msm.umr.edu> <4644E052.939.82FD40A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4646040C.2010405@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 11 May 2007 at 19:59, jim wrote: > > > >>MSC if I recall correctly morphed into Xebec, who was one of the first >>if not the first supplieres ot controllers to IBM for the XT. >> >> > > >Sometime between this unit and the XT controller, I think they went >to programmable bit-slice components for their controllers (8X300? >2901?). This one's interesting in that, with the exception of the >8291, it's all discrete logic; no big ROMs or LSI. > > The controller that Microdata had was modified from the controller design that ran Microdata branded drives directly, but was also all 7400 logic with a 74181 alu type cpu sequencer. I have schematics for both versions of this that hopefully will get scanned and posted on bitsavers sometime soon. Microdata's cpus were both ALU type cpus while I was there in the late 70's and the controllers all had 1 or 2 in their sequencers as well, in their disk controllers, and in their terminals. Tape and com controllers were more state machine type devices, and the printer, card reader, and paper tape read punch boards were just parallel access interfaces with the cpu doing the work. Was the back end of this controller anything resembling sasi, sequential or parallel register interface? I think the MSC controllers into the microdata minis were all serial interfaced on the back end, since the controller cabling and logic had RF serial / deserializer logic that had to remain, since they talked to both microdata drives which were serial RF as well as the MSC controllers w/o any extra connectors to go around the serial logic. you moved a jumper or two, but other than that, the MSC controller just made more heads and cylinders show up to the software, and the seeks were also passed as pulse trains, not as parallel info (like SMD). Xebec picked up and modifed the SASI interface and blessed us with a fouled up early SASI command set which survives at the heart of IDE of course. I'm not aware of a "Xebec" or "MSC" design that survived, but just as you say a lot of custom adaptations. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 12 15:07:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 13:07:06 -0700 Subject: Early MSC HD controller In-Reply-To: <4646040C.2010405@msm.umr.edu> References: <4644A202.26283.73C6BD2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4644E052.939.82FD40A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4646040C.2010405@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4645BBFA.11444.B89D460@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2007 at 11:14, jim wrote: > Was the back end of this controller anything resembling sasi, sequential > or parallel register interface? I think the MSC controllers into the > microdata minis were all serial interfaced on the back end, since > the controller cabling and logic had RF serial / deserializer logic > that had to remain, since they talked to both microdata drives which > were serial RF as well as the MSC controllers w/o any extra > connectors to go around the serial logic. This one is GPIB-to-SA4000 (MFM-ish, but with an on-board data separator and fixed-head byte clock). There's a DIP switch on the board for the type of drive (SA4004=14MB, SA4008=30MB), listener/talker ID, and presence/absence of a fixed head track. > Xebec picked up and modifed the SASI interface and blessed us > with a fouled up early SASI command set which survives at the > heart of IDE of course. I'm not aware of a "Xebec" or "MSC" > design that survived, but just as you say a lot of custom adaptations. This one seems to follow the convention for HPIB disk drives, with a few flags and commands added. I've got an Ampex ISA SASI interface card somewhere in my hellbox. As near as I can tell, it was used to connect with a box containing a QIC tape drive and a hard disk on a PC. Nothing exciting on the card- -just random logic for the parallel interface and a BIOS ROM. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 12 16:06:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 22:06:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini" at May 11, 7 10:42:52 pm Message-ID: > > Interestingly, the IC1 on this drive is a QFP chip from Hitachi (HA16642M= > P). > The PC board revision is "Rev. C" so maybe that's part of it. I think thi= > s > is probably an AT-era drive but I thought the base AT came with 1.2mb > drives? Maybe an option? Does it have a '*' moulded into the front panel? There was a 360K floppy drive option for the PC/AT, and it was distiguished from the 1.2M byte versiobn by having said '*'. A crazy idea, since older 360K drives were not so marked, so it would have been clearer if the new type of drive -- the 1.2M one -- had had the marking. Anyway, if so, I should have some info on it in the PC/AT options/adapters docs. -tony From whipaway at yahoo.com Sat May 12 16:18:17 2007 From: whipaway at yahoo.com (Whipaway) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 14:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ET-3400A Schematic needed Message-ID: <626011.87716.qm@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> Hello to All on the list, I need the schematic for the ET-3400A, which is different from the original ET-3400, which I already have. I have an ET-3400 that does not have the MCM6830A ROM. I have a ET-3400A that uses the 8316 ROM and one that uses a 2716 EPROM, which are interchangable. I want to create an interface circuit that will allow me to use a 2716 EPROM in the ET-3400. A schematic for the ET3400A will really be appreciated. Thanks in advance, whipaway at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. From rcini at optonline.net Sat May 12 20:37:15 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 21:37:15 -0400 Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony: It does have a molded star in the faceplate so I guess that's what it must be. Rich On 5/12/07 5:06 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >> Interestingly, the IC1 on this drive is a QFP chip from Hitachi (HA16642M= >> P). >> The PC board revision is "Rev. C" so maybe that's part of it. I think thi= >> s >> is probably an AT-era drive but I thought the base AT came with 1.2mb >> drives? Maybe an option? > > Does it have a '*' moulded into the front panel? There was a 360K floppy > drive option for the PC/AT, and it was distiguished from the 1.2M byte > versiobn by having said '*'. A crazy idea, since older 360K drives were > not so marked, so it would have been clearer if the new type of drive -- > the 1.2M one -- had had the marking. > > Anyway, if so, I should have some info on it in the PC/AT > options/adapters docs. > > -tony Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 12 21:10:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 19:10:39 -0700 Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4646112F.2624.CD6AAE1@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2007 at 21:37, Richard A. Cini wrote: > It does have a molded star in the faceplate so I guess that's what it > must be. If the drive has MB4392 and MB14301 (18 pin) ICs on it, then it's the "Double Sided Diskette Drive" in the AT O&A. I blew right past it the first time because my AT tech ref has the first revision, which calls it a 96 tpi/360 rpm drive. The second revision, in my O&A correctly labeles it as a 320/360K drive. If you need the circuit diagram, I can scan it for you. But 150 ohms is still the correct PU value. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 12 21:18:05 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 22:18:05 -0400 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . In-Reply-To: <464599AB.7189.B03D00F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200705121706.l4CH5nn1000622@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <511CB36E-430C-4AC4-886A-88349C573187@mac.com> <464599AB.7189.B03D00F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A7764A4-80B3-4ED6-8127-12BF339F49AC@neurotica.com> On May 12, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Hi everyone, I have just started up a user group in my area to get >> together once a month and enjoy old computers and the history, etc. > David, some folks local to your area who are also on this list might > be more interested if you could nail down what you mean by "old". To > some, a Commodore 128 is "old"; others wear socks older than that. Yes! -Dave, Port Charlotte, FL, who thinks a PDP-8/e is "old". :) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 12 20:29:15 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) Message-ID: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> My best-condition 83-key keyboard suddenly developed a bum spacebar, right in the middle of writing some documentation. Before I unscrew the two screws on back to open it up and take a look, can anyone tell me if this is a common condition and if it's relatively easy to fix? I've *never* had a buckling-spring keyboard develop a bad key (maybe I haven't had enough frustrating debugging sessions yet ;-) so I'm at a slight loss as to how to start repairing it. Was there a tech ref for the keyboard at one point, perhaps? Slightly OT, here's an 83-key that is *gray* (several pictures): http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11066/subcatid/0/id/171727 I've never seen a gray variant -- was it official? If so, what system was it intended for use with? I've seen "skinny" IBM keyboards that were intended for use with the PS/2 model 25, but I've never seen a gray 83-key before... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rcini at optonline.net Sat May 12 22:04:01 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 23:04:01 -0400 Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: <4646112F.2624.CD6AAE1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: If you had the time, yes, I'd like a scan and any page about the jumper settings. I bought some 150 ohm terminators and as expected, they work fine. Thanks again for the help. On 5/12/07 10:10 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12 May 2007 at 21:37, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> It does have a molded star in the faceplate so I guess that's what it >> must be. > > If the drive has MB4392 and MB14301 (18 pin) ICs on it, then it's the > "Double Sided Diskette Drive" in the AT O&A. I blew right past it > the first time because my AT tech ref has the first revision, which > calls it a 96 tpi/360 rpm drive. The second revision, in my O&A > correctly labeles it as a 320/360K drive. > > If you need the circuit diagram, I can scan it for you. But 150 ohms > is still the correct PU value. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From ploopster at gmail.com Sat May 12 22:50:14 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 23:50:14 -0400 Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) In-Reply-To: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46468AF6.8060800@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > My best-condition 83-key keyboard suddenly developed a bum spacebar, > right in the middle of writing some documentation. Before I unscrew the > two screws on back to open it up and take a look, can anyone tell me if > this is a common condition and if it's relatively easy to fix? I've > *never* had a buckling-spring keyboard develop a bad key (maybe I > haven't had enough frustrating debugging sessions yet ;-) so I'm at a > slight loss as to how to start repairing it. Was there a tech ref for > the keyboard at one point, perhaps? > > Slightly OT, here's an 83-key that is *gray* (several pictures): > > http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11066/subcatid/0/id/171727 > > I've never seen a gray variant -- was it official? If so, what system > was it intended for use with? I've seen "skinny" IBM keyboards that > were intended for use with the PS/2 model 25, but I've never seen a gray > 83-key before... Yup... official. Industrial AT. Peace... Sridhar From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 12 23:14:06 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 23:14:06 -0500 Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) In-Reply-To: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730705122114h4ba01f2br362322b3f1cb119@mail.gmail.com> On 5/12/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Slightly OT, here's an 83-key that is *gray* (several pictures): I was recently given (!) a putty-gray 101-key Model M; never seen a gray 83-key, though. From ploopster at gmail.com Sat May 12 23:41:04 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 00:41:04 -0400 Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705122114h4ba01f2br362322b3f1cb119@mail.gmail.com> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> <51ea77730705122114h4ba01f2br362322b3f1cb119@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464696E0.3070109@gmail.com> Jason T wrote: > On 5/12/07, Jim Leonard wrote: >> >> Slightly OT, here's an 83-key that is *gray* (several pictures): > > I was recently given (!) a putty-gray 101-key Model M; never seen a > gray 83-key, though. The grey 101-key came with later Industrial AT (very late... almost at the end of the line) and pretty much all of the Industrial PS/2 line. Peace... Sridhar From hachti at hachti.de Sat May 12 23:44:36 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 06:44:36 +0200 Subject: FPGA CPU's In-Reply-To: <200705090159.l491x9uo002444@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200705090159.l491x9uo002444@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <464697B4.9040309@hachti.de> Hi, Brad Parker wrote: > Mark Tapley wrote: >>> Sure, but no one (in their right mind) builds a general purpose CPU out >>> of them. Well, unless it's a research or "toy" project, a prototype >>> design, or something very unusual and high end[1], but even in that case >>> it's still not making a general purpose CPU out of it. > > Some people might disagree, but they may fit into the "high end[1]", but > not unusual. Unless you think that the machines that test the chips in > your cell phone or flat tv are unusual :-) Hm... But that is prototyping gear - and very expensive... Don't ask me if it has to be called unusual... But... For the masses - it's unusual :-) > I'd be curious where you thing a NIOS cpu in an Altera fpga fits into > this discussion. Certainly a general purpose cpu. And it fits in > an fpga. That fits perfectly. AFAIK, Nios is the Altera soft processor designed to be implemented using their FPGAs. But much cooler are FPGAs with hard (and fast!!) CPU integrated (PowerPC, ARM). With those you can realize amazing projects. Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 12 23:48:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 21:48:07 -0700 Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) In-Reply-To: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2007 at 20:29, Jim Leonard wrote: > My best-condition 83-key keyboard suddenly developed a bum spacebar, > right in the middle of writing some documentation. Before I unscrew > the two screws on back to open it up and take a look, can anyone tell > me if this is a common condition and if it's relatively easy to fix? > I've *never* had a buckling-spring keyboard develop a bad key (maybe I > haven't had enough frustrating debugging sessions yet ;-) so I'm at a > slight loss as to how to start repairing it. Was there a tech ref for > the keyboard at one point, perhaps? There was a tech ref, but it won't tell you how to get inside or service it. I don't even know if IBM FE's did anything with them. I repaired an 83 key model once and, as I recall, I was *darned* happy to finally get it back togethere again. It's not work for the faint of heart. Maybe you should just pry the spacebar keycap off and see if you got something caught under it. ----------- Mildly OT question. I'm typing this on a Model M with Wang branding, Model 1397721. It's got a molded-in grill on the bottom for a small (maybe 1.5") speaker, but no speaker. Any idea what this was used for (and can I add a speaker)? Cheers, Chuck "clickety-clickety-click" From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 12 23:59:18 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 23:59:18 -0500 Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) In-Reply-To: <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46469B26.2070406@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I repaired an 83 key model once and, as I recall, I was *darned* > happy to finally get it back togethere again. It's not work for the > faint of heart. > > Maybe you should just pry the spacebar keycap off and see if you got > something caught under it. I started to pry but noticed actual metal keeping it on. It's not like the other keys, which come right off. So that's why I was asking if there was any special considerations I should be aware of before trying to repair it... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 13 00:00:30 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 22:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) In-Reply-To: <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070512215856.I49947@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 12 May 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Maybe you should just pry the spacebar keycap off and see if you got > something caught under it. Pry the keytops off of any key EXCEPT the spacebar!!!! It takes some work to disassemble and reassemble the spacebar mechanism. From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 13 00:05:40 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 01:05:40 -0400 Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) In-Reply-To: <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46469CA4.2050900@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm typing this on a Model M with Wang branding, Model 1397721. It's > got a molded-in grill on the bottom for a small (maybe 1.5") speaker, > but no speaker. Any idea what this was used for (and can I add a > speaker)? IBM RS/6000's don't have an internal speaker. They talk to a speaker in RS/6000-specific Model M's by way of the two unused pins in the PS/2 keyboard connector. The PS/2 Model M's don't come with a speaker. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 13 00:07:01 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 01:07:01 -0400 Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) In-Reply-To: <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46469CF5.3070600@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm typing this on a Model M with Wang branding, Model 1397721. It's > got a molded-in grill on the bottom for a small (maybe 1.5") speaker, > but no speaker. Any idea what this was used for (and can I add a > speaker)? IBM RS/6000's don't have an internal speaker. They talk to a speaker in RS/6000-specific Model M's by way of the two unused pins in the PS/2 keyboard connector. The PS/2 Model M's don't come with a speaker. Peace... Sridhar From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 13 00:07:53 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 00:07:53 -0500 Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) In-Reply-To: <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705122207x5401acefo6f0ae5669e3a57e4@mail.gmail.com> On 5/12/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 May 2007 at 20:29, Jim Leonard wrote: > I'm typing this on a Model M with Wang branding, Model 1397721. It's > got a molded-in grill on the bottom for a small (maybe 1.5") speaker, > but no speaker. Any idea what this was used for (and can I add a > speaker)? I can't find the link now, but I've read that the very first generation of the M, perhaps before the had a speaker there which gave an additional "click" sound, over and above the already impressive mechanical click. They kept that same molding through the series, I believe. My whole office knows when I've arrived, and when I've begun answering the morning emails... -- j From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun May 13 00:11:59 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 22:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sun4m floppy drive in a macintosh Message-ID: In my hands is a floppy drive pulled from a Sun IPC: a Sony MP-F17W-F1. Looking at Ebay, I see a floppy from a Macintosh: Sony MP-F75W-02G. Would this IPC's drive be acceptable for a Mac? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ed at ed-thelen.org Sun May 13 00:48:04 2007 From: ed at ed-thelen.org (Ed Thelen) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 22:48:04 -0700 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned Message-ID: <003d01c79522$48553980$0300a8c0@TIGERTV> Message: 8 Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 11:49:02 +0100 From: Paul Williams Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <46459B9E.4040706 at frixxon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > Al Kossow wrote: >> >> They are some of the ugliest, bloated pdf's I've ever seen. >> What are you doing to them to make them look so BAD. > This is Adobe Capture at work. I had a look at the CP/M manual to see if > the OCRed text was overlaid on an original full page image beneath, but > unfortunately, the 256-page document consists of 13441 image fragments > that couldn't be OCRed. There are no images where text has been OCRed. > -- > Paul Paul - in all kindness (I've been there, done that) Stop scanning a bit and consider: 1) your current technique is not good! a) your current files are indeed much too large by maybe a factor of 6 or 7 b) your current files contain OCR errors - with no warning to users, who tend to think .pdf means a valid image. Two easily found errors are on "your" http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/Manuals%20Scanned/CDC/Control%20Data-Cyber%2070%20Computer%20Systems%20Models%2072,73,74,6000%20Computer%20Systems.PDF on page 3-7 or page 19 in the file in HTML, several variable which should be li have been mis OCRed and are shown as I, Adobe blunders such as the above caused me to abandon Adobe for several years, until I met an Adobe employee who straightened me out. I now use Adobe Acrobat Professional as scanning input control, (not optimum, but it works OK) - trim off the images of paper holes with "Crop Pages" - check the "Recognize Text using OCR" which places Adobe's interpretation "behind" the image (for direct searching) - and have figured how to make "Reduce File Size" work Another thing to consider is that GOOGLE OCRs .pdf files that it spiders, highlighting search hits :-)) To some extent, your Adobe OCR is bypassed by GOOGLE. So - I'm back "PDF"ing, http://www.ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/on-line-docs.html http://www.ed-thelen.org/#h-documents etc. For serious work, I suggest you look at Al Kossow's suggestions at http://www.bitsavers.org/ "Keep Smiling" ;-)) Ed Thelen From bear at typewritten.org Sun May 13 01:36:08 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 23:36:08 -0700 Subject: sun4m floppy drive in a macintosh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00648EA6-19D5-4886-AA42-7AD9CC8C5D47@typewritten.org> On May 12, 2007, at 10:11 PM, David Griffith wrote: > In my hands is a floppy drive pulled from a Sun IPC: a Sony MP-F17W- > F1. > Looking at Ebay, I see a floppy from a Macintosh: Sony MP- > F75W-02G. Would this IPC's drive be acceptable for a Mac? No. ok bear From paul at frixxon.co.uk Sun May 13 04:43:49 2007 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:43:49 +0100 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <003d01c79522$48553980$0300a8c0@TIGERTV> References: <003d01c79522$48553980$0300a8c0@TIGERTV> Message-ID: <4646DDD5.1050904@frixxon.co.uk> Ed Thelen wrote: > > Paul - > in all kindness (I've been there, done that) > Stop scanning a bit and consider: > > 1) your current technique is not good! Ed, please stop preaching a bit a read the thread. I didn't scan those documents. Paul From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 13 07:03:12 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 04:03:12 -0800 Subject: Unix encryption board In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705122207x5401acefo6f0ae5669e3a57e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> <51ea77730705122207x5401acefo6f0ae5669e3a57e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4646FE80.9080704@socal.rr.com> Digging through and sorting my garage I found a couple small white cardboard boxes I must have bought during the auctions after all the bank failures a few years back. Both have a stamp on the box from the "federal deposit insurance corporation" with an identification number, and one is further labeled "Unix encryption board". Inside each box in a static bag are ISA serial boards, and I don't know enough to know what if anything is special about them. UM82C11 in a socket, sticker over one larger chip is Quadrant Components 88 Jun, TD3010 PT6120 M 81301, TC inside a large C with 8744S T24382. Second board has Kouwell KW-524H printed on it, its smaller with a Winbond W86C452P 248NI425630 as the only big chip. Either of these sound like some special or interesting? I am way behind in reading posts, but I will try to fish out any responses, emailing me directly will be a lot more certain. Thanks, hope it something more neat than just a serial card, but not neat enough somebody knocks on my door in a few hours. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun May 13 05:28:11 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 11:28:11 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi All For reasons that I will not go into here I have most of four PDP-11/94's. The 94 was the last of the PDP11 line. Thats about as classic as it gets. Notice I said 'most'. What's missing is the cpu cards in this case a KDJ11-EB. The DEC orientated amongst us will know that the CPU is a QBus J11 chip based board on quad module (M8981). Ah but the 11/94 is a unibus system you say. Thats right. The board talks to the unibus through a KT11-B that does the conversion. Now for my dilemma. Before checking the cost of a KDJ11-EB you are advised to make sure pacemaker batteries are fully charged and any blood pressue medication has been taken. Take it from me the prices are so high they need to join the astronaut corps! I would like to get at least one of these historic systems running again. Suggestions please!! Rod Smallwood From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun May 13 08:39:10 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:39:10 -0300 Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <038a01c79564$8c12d0a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > My best-condition 83-key keyboard suddenly developed a bum spacebar, right > in the middle of writing some documentation. Before I unscrew the Jim, this is a very common failure. The spacebar - beyond the switch - has a small "C" supporter that keeps the bar horizontal and makes any pressure in any point of the bar activate the switch. Take a look at the bar unassembled and you'll see it. A common (!) failure is when this supporter falls out and the bar only works if you press right in the middle. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 13 09:05:03 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 10:05:03 -0400 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200705131005.03576.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 13 May 2007 06:28, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi All > Now for my dilemma. Before checking the cost of a KDJ11-EB you are > advised to make sure pacemaker batteries are fully charged and any > blood pressue medication has been taken. Take it from me the prices > are so high they need to join the astronaut corps! ..which is probably why your systems were missing the CPU boards when yo got them... > I would like to get at least one of these historic systems running > again. Suggestions please!! It'd be a lot less expensive to turn it into an 11/84, the CPU for that (some models of KDJ11-B) should be much less expensive, then just add memory. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dgreelish at mac.com Sun May 13 13:28:02 2007 From: dgreelish at mac.com (David Greelish) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 14:28:02 -0400 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . In-Reply-To: <200705131701.l4DH0x04012499@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705131701.l4DH0x04012499@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6F3BA39F-195E-4DFC-8CD6-43AFDF0988FD@mac.com> >> From: "Chuck Guzis" >> Hi everyone, I have just started up a user group in my area to get >> together once a month and enjoy old computers and the history, etc. > David, some folks local to your area who are also on this list might > be more interested if you could nail down what you mean by "old". To > some, a Commodore 128 is "old"; others wear socks older than that. Hi Chuck, as a general guideline, I'm a big fan of the ten year rule, though I'd generally be weary still of anything PC based that is Pentium III and newer, and/or Win95 or newer. Thanks, David David Greelish classiccomputing.com The Classic Computing Podcast Home of Computer History Nostalgia Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast From dgreelish at mac.com Sun May 13 13:37:21 2007 From: dgreelish at mac.com (David Greelish) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 14:37:21 -0400 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . In-Reply-To: <200705131701.l4DH0x04012499@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705131701.l4DH0x04012499@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <69C45867-F203-4F9F-BADE-1E0CF71530BE@mac.com> >> From: "Chuck Guzis" >> Hi everyone, I have just started up a user group in my area to get >> together once a month and enjoy old computers and the history, etc. > David, some folks local to your area who are also on this list might > be more interested if you could nail down what you mean by "old". To > some, a Commodore 128 is "old"; others wear socks older than that. Hi Chuck, as a general guideline, I'm a big fan of the ten year rule, though I'd generally be weary still of anything PC based that is Pentium III and newer, and/or Win95 or newer. Thanks, David David Greelish classiccomputing.com The Classic Computing Podcast Home of Computer History Nostalgia Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun May 13 14:03:06 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 15:03:06 -0400 Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) In-Reply-To: <200705131702.l4DH28HD012548@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004c01c79591$56ef7a40$6500a8c0@barry> Re: "The spacebar - beyond the switch - has a small "C" supporter that keeps the bar horizontal and makes any pressure in any point of the bar activate the switch" This is called an "equalizer" mechanism, and all keyboards have it on all large keys (it's usually present on the enter and shift keys as well as the space bar, and often on a few other keys). These can be a real bitch to get reconfigured properly, but it's a purely mechanical task, and with some patience, if this is the problem, it should be fixable. It's possible, however, that this isn't the problem. Do NOT take the back of the keyboard apart as a first step, rather, remove the space bar (being very careful not to break the equalizer mechanism and noting in detail how it is attached). There is a metal plate inside the "switch" that serves as the actual contact point, this can become dislodged. Or there might be dirt in the mechanism. It's very rare that these can't be fixed, and fixed without any new parts, unless something is really broken. More common it's just dirt or some mechanical part that has become misaligned. From mctylr at gmail.com Sun May 13 14:03:25 2007 From: mctylr at gmail.com (michael taylor) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 15:03:25 -0400 Subject: Unix encryption board In-Reply-To: <4646FE80.9080704@socal.rr.com> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> <51ea77730705122207x5401acefo6f0ae5669e3a57e4@mail.gmail.com> <4646FE80.9080704@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <25630a120705131203t182504dcx262574a1f0a02bde@mail.gmail.com> On 5/13/07, Mike Ford wrote: > Inside each box in a static bag are ISA serial boards, and I don't know > enough to know what if anything is special about them. UM82C11 in a > socket, sticker over one larger chip is Quadrant Components 88 Jun, > TD3010 PT6120 M 81301, TC inside a large C with 8744S T24382. I don't know about this card. I would be interested if it does turn out to be encryption / cryptography related. I would of expected a very limited number of companies selling encryption devices in that era. IBM, NCR, and other "bank friendly" companies. > Second board has Kouwell KW-524H printed on it, its smaller with a > Winbond W86C452P 248NI425630 as the only big chip. Possible not. It might of simply been an ISA serial port card connected to an encryption device, or encrypted line (say a router and/or modem with X.25 to a bank for example). -Michael From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 13 12:52:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 18:52:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 83-key questions (repair and color) In-Reply-To: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 12, 7 08:29:15 pm Message-ID: > > My best-condition 83-key keyboard suddenly developed a bum spacebar, > right in the middle of writing some documentation. Before I unscrew the > two screws on back to open it up and take a look, can anyone tell me if > this is a common condition and if it's relatively easy to fix? I've > *never* had a buckling-spring keyboard develop a bad key (maybe I > haven't had enough frustrating debugging sessions yet ;-) so I'm at a > slight loss as to how to start repairing it. Was there a tech ref for > the keyboard at one point, perhaps? The keyboards asre covered in the 'system' TechRefs, but it won't be a lot of help. There are no mechanical details at all, and for the PC/AT 83/84 key keyboard, the only schematic is of the LED PCB. I think it's assumed you can deduce the rest form the PC or PC/XT Techrefs :-) I actually have the PC/AT Hardware Maintenance and Service manual, which coveres field repairs to the keyboard. But the space part is not field repairiable. That said, I have taken these keyboards right apart in the past. I think the 83/84 key one is a cpacitive keyboard, like the PC and XT one, right? The 101/102 key keyboard is a membrane swithc array with buckle springs and flaps to give it the right feel. OK, if it is a capacitive one, IIRC, it comes apart like this : Remove the screws on the botton, lift off the bottom plate, unplug the cables from the keyboard assembly, and lift the latter out. Remove all the keycaps apart from the space bar. The space bar will not come off due to the linkage that keeps it level. But pull the space bar aup as far as you (sensibly) can. Now you'll see a tab that's bent over to lock the top and bottom parts togther. Bend it out of the way, so the 2 parts can slide relative to each other. Then slide them to free the locking hooks. Put the whole thing down upside-down and lift off the bottom plate with the PCB attached. Take out all the flaps (with their buckle springs), including the one for the spacebar. You can now work on the spacebar mechanism. When youput it back toegert, again have the space bar as high as possible, to reduce the force on its buckle spring. Put all the flaps in place, put the bottom on, and slide to lock. Do not bend the tab yet. Push the spacebar down, and check it feels and sounds right. Put the other keycaps on, checking as you go. In fact, hook up the cables and test the thing on the PC. Only when it's all working should you bend the locking tab back in place. If it is a membrane type like the 101 key one, I can talk you trough that too, but it involves cutting off heatstakes, drilling them out, tapping the holes and putting it all back together with. From what I remmeber, you can take the spacebar off that one without stripping down the keyswitch 'sandwich'. Hang on, I think I've got some info on doing it Yes, here we are, the notes I made whrn I fixed mine . --------------------------- My IBM PC/AT enhanced keyboard failed recently -- it would send random characters, go in and out of shift mode, etc. When I dismantled it, I found the problem was mechanical -- the plastic studs holding the membrane 'sandwich' together were broken and the little flaps under some of the keys were out of position. So I worked out how to fix it. Remove the casing : 1) Unplug the keyboard cable at the back of the keyboard 2) Undo the 4 self-tapping screws (7/32" nutdriver) 3) Lift off the top half of the case 4) Lift the keyboard and encoder PCB from the lower case Remove the encoder board : 1) Unplug the tapewire (4 way) between the LED PCB and the encoder and both ends. Set it aside 2) Unplug the 2 keyboard tails from the encoder board 3) Remove the earth braid from the faston tab on the encoder board. Set the encoder board aside. 4) Undo the nut and bolt holding the earth braid from the keyboard backplate. Set those parts aside also. Remove the keycaps. These just pull off, but note that most of the keycaps are in 2 parts. Remove both parts together. Note how the wire loops under some of the larger keycaps (and the space bar) are fitted. Dismantle the membrane keyswitch sandwich : 1) Turn it over, so the metal backplate is uppermost. There are a number of plastic studs that come through the backplate and and melted over to hold the assembly together. Some of these are covered by a paper label, which should now be removed. 2) Break off the plastic studs. In many cases, some of these will be broken off anyway. The aim is to free the backplate entirely. 3) Lift off the metal backplate. If it is distorted (it should be a smooth curve), straighten it 4) Lift off the keyboard layers. In order these are : Lower membrane layer with conductive traces, separator (with holes), upper membrane layer with conductive traces and the LED PCB and a rubber sheet. Keep these carefully in order. 5) Remove the keyboard flaps and springs. Note which holes do not have a flap. 6) Press out the guides that are fitted for some of the wider keycaps. Modifying the upper keyboard panel : 1) Cut/file away the remains of the plastic studs from the keyboard panel. 2) Mark the centre of each stud (apart from those at the very bottom edge, which can be ignored) with a scriber. 3) Clamp the keyboard panel, upside down, to the bench. It can be flattened out by the clamps to simplyfy drilling. Drill each of the marked stud positions with a pilot hole of 1.5mm and enlarge them to 2mm. 4) Tap these holes at M2.5*0.45mm. This is best done from the top side of the keyboard panel. 5) Screw an M2.5*10mm screw into each of the new holes. You'll need about 50 screws. At the far right edge there are 3 holes near the clips for the loops on the '+' and 'enter' keys. The middle hole can't be used, and it is necessary to file down the heads of the screws in the other 2 holes to allow the loops to fit properly. 6) Check the metal backplate can be fitted over the screws. Ease any tight holes with a needle file. Reassembly : 1) Support the keyboard panel upside down over a box. Ensure that all the key posts are clear 2) Insert the flaps, leaving the holes you noted earlier empty. 3) Fit the rubber sheet and the 3 layers of keyboard membrane in the right order over the screws 4) Fit the backplate over the screws 5) Fit a M2.5 washer and nut onto each of the screws. Tighten them evenly, starting in the centre, and then the corners. Then tighten the remaining nuts. 6) Reassemble the guides, keycaps, encoder board and case in the reverse order. The keyboard should now work. Mine does -- I typed this on it. --------------------------- -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 13 16:22:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 14:22:54 -0700 Subject: Replacement belts for Amstrad CF floppy drives Message-ID: <46471F3E.24242.10F58F74@cclist.sydex.com> Thanks to another cctalk-er, I've discovered an inexpensive replacement for the dreaded neoprene belt in Amstrad 3" CF drives. There's a product called "Plastibands" available at many office supply stores (or on Amazon.com) that are intended as a replacement for traditional rubber bands. They're made of polyurethane and have a considerable amount of "stretch"--and, the best part, don't disintegrate quickly. I slipped one of the 2" x 1/8" bands on my CF drive and it works like charm--plenty "grippy". A box of 100 on Amazon runs less than $5.00. That should keep you and your best friends in drive belts nearly forever. There's also a larger 4" x 1/4" size. The $64,000 question is "Can these be used as a replacement for the band in DC-600-ish QIC carts? My initial experimentation with the 2" model in a DC-2000 cart is "not quite"--the QIC application requires a bit of slip, which these don't appear to have--they're a bit too "grippy". However, I'm going to tumble a few in some molybdenium disulfide powder for a few days to see if a "slip" can be imparted to them. Stay tuned... However, I suspect that the larger belts might work with old 5.25" floppy drives that require a drive belt. Remember, as they stretch, they get narrower. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 13 16:24:59 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 17:24:59 -0400 Subject: FPGA CPU's In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 13 May 2007 06:44:36 +0200." <464697B4.9040309@hachti.de> Message-ID: <200705132124.l4DLOxT2022716@mwave.heeltoe.com> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: ... >Hm... But that is prototyping gear - and very expensive... Don't ask me >if it has to be called unusual... But... For the masses - it's unusual :-) These are not prototypes - they are production machines in use around the world. But I agree, the biggest fpga's are ridiculously expensive. (but cheaper to develop and deploy than full custom or gate arrays for some/most volumes < consumer products) >But much cooler are FPGAs with hard (and fast!!) CPU integrated >(PowerPC, ARM). With those you can realize amazing projects. mmm. I'm using both right now (virtex 4 with 2 hard ppc's) and Altera with NIOS and don't think they are very fast. 400mhz is not that fast any more. And getting DDR2 memory to go over 200mhz is not really safe with most fpga's, in my opinion. The brand-X sales people's noses grow when the claim otherwise. some of the arm chips might go faster than 400mhz, but, ahem, there are issues there too, as as above, you quickly crash into the dram clock as a limiting factor. having said all that hot air, I really like fpga cpu's and am a huge fan. I have always been in love with microcode - the wider the better. And some of the medium size fpga's have enough internal ram which runs really fast... -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 13 16:27:13 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 17:27:13 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 12 May 2007 22:48:04 PDT." <003d01c79522$48553980$0300a8c0@TIGERTV> Message-ID: <200705132127.l4DLRDSj023346@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Ed Thelen" wrote: > >Another thing to consider is that GOOGLE OCRs .pdf >files that it spiders, highlighting search hits :-)) really? can you provide any links to back that up? (I mean, I believe you, but I've never read anywhere that that was happening and I'm curious about ti) -brad From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 13 05:08:40 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 04:08:40 -0600 Subject: FPGA CPU's In-Reply-To: <200705132124.l4DLOxT2022716@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200705132124.l4DLOxT2022716@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4646E3A8.1080303@jetnet.ab.ca> Brad Parker wrote: > having said all that hot air, I really like fpga cpu's and am a huge > fan. I have always been in love with microcode - the wider the better. > And some of the medium size fpga's have enough internal ram which runs > really fast... They also don't want to talk about Pin Locking as well. That was my problem with FPGA's. My how long can brand X nose grow? > -brad From g-wright at att.net Sun May 13 17:22:08 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 22:22:08 +0000 Subject: Tek 4051 on craigs list here in Seattle Message-ID: <051320072222.1420.46478F900006E52B0000058C21603831169B0809079D99D309@att.net> Listed with a Wang and others under computer and search vintage http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/sys/325631116.html - Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at attnet From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 13 17:35:17 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 18:35:17 -0400 Subject: FPGA CPU's In-Reply-To: <200705132124.l4DLOxT2022716@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200705132124.l4DLOxT2022716@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <5E7D6D41-2947-46F8-B5B3-6E9333566ABB@neurotica.com> On May 13, 2007, at 5:24 PM, Brad Parker wrote: >> But much cooler are FPGAs with hard (and fast!!) CPU integrated >> (PowerPC, ARM). With those you can realize amazing projects. > > mmm. I'm using both right now (virtex 4 with 2 hard ppc's) and Altera > with NIOS and don't think they are very fast. 400mhz is not that fast > any more. Oh, it's still damn fast. It's just that there's stuff that's *faster*. That's a very important distinction IMO. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 13 17:36:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 18:36:07 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <200705132127.l4DLRDSj023346@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200705132127.l4DLRDSj023346@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On May 13, 2007, at 5:27 PM, Brad Parker wrote: >> Another thing to consider is that GOOGLE OCRs .pdf >> files that it spiders, highlighting search hits :-)) > > really? > > can you provide any links to back that up? (I mean, I believe you, > but I've > never read anywhere that that was happening and I'm curious about ti) Umm. Have you ever googled for something and had it turn up PDF files? I'd say fully a third of them that I run across contain images of pages, not text. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 13 17:40:50 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 14:40:50 -0800 Subject: Unix encryption board In-Reply-To: <25630a120705131203t182504dcx262574a1f0a02bde@mail.gmail.com> References: <464669EB.6020602@oldskool.org> <46463617.23282.D66D44A@cclist.sydex.com> <51ea77730705122207x5401acefo6f0ae5669e3a57e4@mail.gmail.com> <4646FE80.9080704@socal.rr.com> <25630a120705131203t182504dcx262574a1f0a02bde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464793F2.9090000@socal.rr.com> michael taylor wrote: > On 5/13/07, Mike Ford wrote: >> Inside each box in a static bag are ISA serial boards, and I don't know >> enough to know what if anything is special about them. UM82C11 in a >> socket, sticker over one larger chip is Quadrant Components 88 Jun, >> TD3010 PT6120 M 81301, TC inside a large C with 8744S >> T24382. > > I don't know about this card. I would be interested if it does turn > out to be encryption / cryptography related. I would of expected a > very limited number of companies selling encryption devices in that > era. IBM, NCR, and other "bank friendly" companies. > >> Second board has Kouwell KW-524H printed on it, its smaller with a >> Winbond W86C452P 248NI425630 as the only big chip. > > Possible not. It might of simply been an ISA serial port card > connected to an encryption device, or encrypted line (say a router > and/or modem with X.25 to a bank for example). > > > > -Michael Its the bane of all scroungers, whats in the bag inside the box may have nothing to do with anything it says on the box. Classic case is where someone buys a new special fancy ultra rare etc. item, puts it in their system, and puts the old card in the bag and box it came in for safe keeping easy tracking etc. OTOH a perhaps trivial looking change to the card might be all that was required to enable the encryption. I think I have one or two, I believe, Mac IIci or IIcx systems from one of those big places in New Mexico, that have some kind of encryption related to I think the hard drives. I remember it looked interesting enough at the time I decided to keep the whole Mac intact, but haven't played with it since. The boxes for the serial cards are both small and already labeled, so just maybe I can keep track of them instead of burying as I move stuff around. I'll try to keep watching this, but I am back to moving stuff and making space. From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 13 17:42:38 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 16:42:38 -0600 Subject: Tek 4051 on craigs list here in Seattle In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 13 May 2007 22:22:08 -0000. <051320072222.1420.46478F900006E52B0000058C21603831169B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: In article <051320072222.1420.46478F900006E52B0000058C21603831169B0809079D99D309 at att.net>, g-wright at att.net writes: > Listed with a Wang and others under computer and search vintage > > > http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/sys/325631116.html Gee and he's *only* asking $1500 for the Tek 4051 alone. $500 for the Wang, $250 for a PS/2. He wants $4250 for the whole lot and "will consider reasonable offer", but I have a feeling that this guy's definition of reasonable isn't one that we share. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 13 17:44:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 16:44:35 -0600 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 13 May 2007 18:36:07 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Dave McGuire writes: > Umm. Have you ever googled for something and had it turn up PDF > files? I'd say fully a third of them that I run across contain > images of pages, not text. How do you know it doesn't contain text? As described earlier in this thread, the PDF file can be constructed with a "hidden" text layer that is OCR'ed from the images so that text searches work. I bet that Google just searches embedded text because they never find stuff on bitsavers when you search for text. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 13 18:06:23 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 16:06:23 -0700 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned Message-ID: <464799EF.7010806@bitsavers.org> > they never find stuff on > bitsavers when you search for text. Very early on, I disabled all search engines from .pdf files on bitsavers' in the robots.txt file. Google is particularly bad about fetching documents over and over again. From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 13 19:11:39 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 20:11:39 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 13 May 2007 16:06:23 PDT." <464799EF.7010806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200705140011.l4E0BdOF012085@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > >Google is particularly bad about fetching documents over and >over again. mmm... any evidence they are using OCR to index pdf's? of all the places I'd *like* them to OCR, it's bitsavers. in fact, mmmmm, I'd like to connect the two dots. bitsavers + google (and, and/all mit, standford, cmu, ... software archives) something to start mentioning at various fund raising cocktail parties :-) -brad From rtellason at verizon.net Sun May 13 19:33:55 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 20:33:55 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <200705132127.l4DLRDSj023346@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200705132127.l4DLRDSj023346@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200705132033.55984.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 May 2007 17:27, Brad Parker wrote: > "Ed Thelen" wrote: > >Another thing to consider is that GOOGLE OCRs .pdf > >files that it spiders, highlighting search hits :-)) > > really? > > can you provide any links to back that up? (I mean, I believe you, but > I've never read anywhere that that was happening and I'm curious about ti) Um, how about any number of google searches that I've done that bring up links to pdf files? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Sun May 13 20:37:14 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 18:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <200705132033.55984.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "May 13, 7 08:33:55 pm" Message-ID: <200705140137.l4E1bEq2011828@floodgap.com> > > > Another thing to consider is that GOOGLE OCRs .pdf > > > files that it spiders, highlighting search hits :-)) > > can you provide any links to back that up? (I mean, I believe you, but > > I've never read anywhere that that was happening and I'm curious about ti) > Um, how about any number of google searches that I've done that bring up > links to pdf files? Doesn't mean they're OCRed. Run a 'strings' on the pdf -- the text is there. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LDA #TXT:JMP $AB1E:TXT .asc "just another c64 hacker":.byt 0d00 - From rcini at optonline.net Sun May 13 20:51:55 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 21:51:55 -0400 Subject: IBM floppy termination In-Reply-To: <4646112F.2624.CD6AAE1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Ok, I looked at the drive schematic and the schematic for the controller on the Hawthorne board I have. The right jumper, FWIW, is the HS jumper. The motor signal is active regardless of the drive being selected. Unfortunately, the light stays on until the next drive is selected. I'm thinking it has to do with the uniqueness of the Hawthorne controller. It uses a few spare I/O bits on the 68681 communications controller to serve as the drive select signals. The floppy IC itself is a WD1770. I'm thinking that the code that manages these select signals is "sticky", meaning that it never shows a "deselect", so the last drive used is still selected after the operation completes. On 5/12/07 10:10 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12 May 2007 at 21:37, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> It does have a molded star in the faceplate so I guess that's what it >> must be. > > If the drive has MB4392 and MB14301 (18 pin) ICs on it, then it's the > "Double Sided Diskette Drive" in the AT O&A. I blew right past it > the first time because my AT tech ref has the first revision, which > calls it a 96 tpi/360 rpm drive. The second revision, in my O&A > correctly labeles it as a 320/360K drive. > > If you need the circuit diagram, I can scan it for you. But 150 ohms > is still the correct PU value. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From rtellason at verizon.net Sun May 13 20:49:45 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 21:49:45 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <200705140137.l4E1bEq2011828@floodgap.com> References: <200705140137.l4E1bEq2011828@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200705132149.45862.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 May 2007 21:37, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Another thing to consider is that GOOGLE OCRs .pdf > > > > files that it spiders, highlighting search hits :-)) > > > > > > can you provide any links to back that up? (I mean, I believe you, but > > > I've never read anywhere that that was happening and I'm curious about > > > ti) > > > > Um, how about any number of google searches that I've done that bring up > > links to pdf files? > > Doesn't mean they're OCRed. Run a 'strings' on the pdf -- the text is > there. Um, yup... !Z#OM'*K;Gjm*Nq$_Gq.?_/TC>34_o2H-J)TH`D(Gn"tTc!E#.FS+u*kL;Dcb 0h@\8QP[]]js*'5m@[9\EAYI8X`LQ?c6/u57m=mko2,Q/<&qioVsuk at pV46IoEG?? )t,,kbAn-LBC*MCRqY(h!0kjLR/~> endstream endobj 7 0 obj < References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200705131005.03576.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4647C665.5020603@compsys.to> >Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>On Sunday 13 May 2007 06:28, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > >>Hi All >>Now for my dilemma. Before checking the cost of a KDJ11-EB you are >>advised to make sure pacemaker batteries are fully charged and any >>blood pressue medication has been taken. Take it from me the prices >>are so high they need to join the astronaut corps! >> >..which is probably why your systems were missing the CPU boards when yo >got them... > >>I would like to get at least one of these historic systems running >>again. Suggestions please!! >> >It'd be a lot less expensive to turn it into an 11/84, the CPU for that >(some models of KDJ11-B) should be much less expensive, then just add >memory. :) > Jerome Fine replies: Your suggestion might not be possible. I once had the box and boards for an 11/94. I really can't remember, but there might not have been any slots for the memory. In any case, I am extremely curious. What goal(s) will you achieve? Do you want to run software faster? Is your only goal to have the fastest PDP-11 that DEC ever produced? Note that a number of other companies produced much faster PDP-11 CPU boards. Note that I very much appreciate that from a hardware point of view your goal is extremely gratifying - probably even more than my software goals. I am just curious what your goals are. One of my goals when I run using PDP-11 software is to run as fast as possible. At present I run at about 15 times a PDP-11/93. Very shortly, I hope to be upgrading my hardware and be able to run at 100 times a PDP-11/93 along with the availability of having an extra GigaByte of spare memory for data that may also allow a co-processor to perform CPU intensive calculations. About 20 years ago, I was using a PDP-11/23+ on a system with 4 MB of memory which included a co-processor that used the same memory as the PDP-11/23+. Any finally, although my experience is with an 11/93 on the Qbus, I found that there is very little difference between an 11/93 and an 11/83 as far as CPU speed is concerned. That would also be likely to apply to the difference between an 11/94 and an 11/84. Basically, I suggest that the only difference in speed is due to the clock rate of 20 MHz on the 11/93 board and the 18 MHz clock rate (or crystal if you prefer) on the 11/83 board. Otherwise, the PMI memory on the 11/83 is probably about as fast as the on board memory on the 11/93. As for the actual CPU, almost all M8190 quad CPU boards or KDJ11-Bx (maybe all) allow the use of PMI memory which is the primary reason the 11/83 is faster than the 11/73. The other reason is the 18 MHz clock rate on the 11/83 as opposed to the 15 MHz clock rate on the 11/73. So if anyone has a M8190 CPU with non-PMI memory and can find some PMI memory, then as long as there are ABCD slots available for all of the memory and CPU boards, the system will run much faster with PMI memory. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun May 13 21:38:26 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 19:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <200705132149.45862.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "May 13, 7 09:49:45 pm" Message-ID: <200705140238.l4E2cQuQ011520@floodgap.com> > > > Um, how about any number of google searches that I've done that bring up > > > links to pdf files? > > > > Doesn't mean they're OCRed. Run a 'strings' on the pdf -- the text is > > there. > > Um, yup... > Nope, I don't think any of that looks particularly useful... Then try it on a .pdf that isn't compressed (or a collection of images). Otherwise, look for FlateEncode objects and run them through zlib to get the original text back. That's what Google is doing, not OCRing. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Predestination was doomed from the start. ---------------------------------- From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 13 21:39:00 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 21:39:00 -0500 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions Message-ID: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> (Hopefully this is on-topic since the technologies and hardware are over a decade old) Background: I rescued two DLT 7000 drives this weekend (one Quantum, one SUN) and hooked them up to an Adaptec 29160 HBA. The Adaptec has an external 50-pin (Ultra 2?) connector, so I used a 50-to-68 pin (Ultra wide SCSI?) cable to connect the HBA to the first DLT drive, and a 68-pin to connect both DLT drives together. It took a bit of configuring in the Adaptec BIOS (had all targets set to U160 16-bit) but after some sane reductions they both were recognized and speed was set to 10MB/s. My concern is that it takes nearly two hours to fill a DLT IV (35GB) tape, regardless of which drive I use or HBA settings I configure. The Quantum drive averages 4168 kB/s; the SUN drive is slower and averages 3355 kB/s. Are these times normal? With such large capacities per tape, I would have assumed they could be filled faster... They are reporting a 10MB/s speed, why am I getting only 4MB/s? Another question: Is it normal for DLT drives to go faster if compression is disabled? I thought the point of hardware compression was that it came without cost. I'm running a test now, but was curious to know if other drives were known for being "slower" with compression on. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun May 13 22:00:58 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 20:00:58 -0700 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <200705140137.l4E1bEq2011828@floodgap.com> References: <200705140137.l4E1bEq2011828@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4647D0EA.3030204@msm.umr.edu> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >Doesn't mean they're OCRed. Run a 'strings' on the pdf -- the text is there. > > I suspect that the encoding in the PDF's probably needs to be deciphered to see the text. I also suspect there may be a variant that has plain text. Note that both tiff and postscript can be encapsulated in pdf's with very little modification and in the case of some postscript files, the plain text will be visible and ascii readable, and in others it will not (such as EPS). The original documents in the thread seem to have been touched and perhaps OCR'ed by Acrobat 6. I used Acrobat 6 to capture documents, and found a similar problem when I used it, and had to turn off the "document" capture and change to picture capture options. When I did that, the size increased dramatically, so I ended up abandoning that format. After a lot of experimentation, I frankly have not found much to change about how Bitsavers is encoded and stored. At a future time someone may OCR the archive, but right now I don't think that the resources exist to scan and store the documents in a fashion that current OCR software will work. But the black and white images work for humans, so sometime soneone may get an OCR package, modify it, and make a run at the database. Jim From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 13 22:40:02 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 22:40:02 -0500 Subject: Motion video on an IBM PC/XT - Methodology Message-ID: <4647DA12.9080407@oldskool.org> About 3 years ago I announced to the list a little something I'd done with an IBM PC/XT with CGA that was unconventional for the platform (full-motion video using stock hardware). I recently gave a talk at a hacker convention on the complete methodology of how I did it, and the video of that talk is now available here: http://www.archive.org/details/8088CorruptionExplained Just thought some people here would be curious to see how it was accomplished. While there are several versions of the video to choose from, if you have the bandwidth you should grab the MPEG-2 version (big) because it's DVD quality and best preserves some of the detail necessary to properly appreciate the piece. (In fact, it looks best burnt to a DVD and watched on a television proper.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 13 22:45:55 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 20:45:55 -0700 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> References: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: At 9:39 PM -0500 5/13/07, Jim Leonard wrote: >My concern is that it takes nearly two hours to fill a DLT IV (35GB) >tape, regardless of which drive I use or HBA settings I configure. >The Quantum drive averages 4168 kB/s; the SUN drive is slower and >averages 3355 kB/s. Are these times normal? With such large >capacities per tape, I would have assumed they could be filled >faster... They are reporting a 10MB/s speed, why am I getting only >4MB/s? I'd say the speeds you got on the Quantum drive are pretty darn good, and even the Sun drive isn't bad. Check the quantum site and see if they still have the manuals available to download, and check what they list as speeds for these drives. Back when we were using these with them attached to either Auspex fileservers or Sun Ultra 2's, we typically saw 1.5-3MB/sec speeds. Actually the slow speeds of a DLT7000 can be nice, as it is far easier to keep these drives streaming than something like an SDLT600. I believe O'Reilly publishes a book on backups that has some good tips on getting max performance out of these drives. It has been a long time, and I doubt I still have my notes for tweaking Solaris to work with them. BTW, I have a Quantum DLT7000 hooked up to my VMS box, it works quite nice, I've never bothered to check the speeds, but it's quite bad, do to the old slow SCSI-DIFF card it's plugged into. It has helped save my bacon at least once. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun May 13 23:38:24 2007 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 23:38:24 -0500 Subject: looking for TU56 Message-ID: <000001c795e1$b64369c0$176fa8c0@obie> I'll never know unless I ask - does anyone have a TU56 for sale or trade? Ideally in the $10/lb range, or trade for an Altair 8800. I'm in the Chicago area, will be driving to VCF East and Midwest in the next few months, happy to drive a couple hundred extra miles to retrieve said tape drive. Shipping is a bit frightening, but will certainly be considered. The drive will be interfaced to my 8/E, most likely with a TD8E interface, but a good or restorable unit in any configuration will do! TIA, Jack No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/801 - Release Date: 5/12/2007 6:40 PM From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Sun May 13 19:16:50 2007 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 17:16:50 -0700 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <200705140011.l4E0BdOF012085@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Your message of "Sun, 13 May 2007 16:06:23 PDT."<464799EF.7010806@bitsavers.org> <200705140011.l4E0BdOF012085@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: Al et al, To be clear - the problem is that Google consumes bandwidth by repeatedly downloading static documents, verses downloading dynamic content whose index status might be new or dirty? Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 5:12 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned > > > Al Kossow wrote: > > > >Google is particularly bad about fetching documents over and over > >again. > > mmm... any evidence they are using OCR to index pdf's? > > of all the places I'd *like* them to OCR, it's bitsavers. > > in fact, mmmmm, I'd like to connect the two dots. bitsavers > + google (and, and/all mit, standford, cmu, ... software archives) > > something to start mentioning at various fund raising > cocktail parties :-) > > -brad > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 01:09:51 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 02:09:51 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1DA1986C-D53A-4EA2-B1F1-64EE9E0539E0@neurotica.com> On May 13, 2007, at 6:44 PM, Richard wrote: >> Umm. Have you ever googled for something and had it turn up PDF >> files? I'd say fully a third of them that I run across contain >> images of pages, not text. > > How do you know it doesn't contain text? Because in several instances in which I've downloaded the referenced PDF file and torn it apart (to re-compress, trim out cover pages that weren't present in the original document, etc) they've contained only images. > As described earlier in this > thread, the PDF file can be constructed with a "hidden" text layer > that is OCR'ed from the images so that text searches work. Yup. That's a damn nice feature of the PDF format if you ask me. > I bet that > Google just searches embedded text because they never find stuff on > bitsavers when you search for text. I'm sure it does that too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 01:11:27 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 02:11:27 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <200705140137.l4E1bEq2011828@floodgap.com> References: <200705140137.l4E1bEq2011828@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On May 13, 2007, at 9:37 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> Another thing to consider is that GOOGLE OCRs .pdf >>>> files that it spiders, highlighting search hits :-)) > >>> can you provide any links to back that up? (I mean, I believe >>> you, but >>> I've never read anywhere that that was happening and I'm curious >>> about ti) > >> Um, how about any number of google searches that I've done that >> bring up >> links to pdf files? > > Doesn't mean they're OCRed. Run a 'strings' on the pdf -- the text > is there. UNLESS the PDF file simply consists of scanned images of pages, which is frequently the case. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 02:49:40 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 03:49:40 -0400 Subject: HP-IL sighting! Message-ID: <3390E24D-C911-4005-B567-4626519864D7@neurotica.com> HP-IL interfaces turn up in the oddest places. This sound level meter on eBay looks to have an HP-IL interface, shown in the pics: http://shorterlink.org/2335 -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon May 14 03:04:29 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 10:04:29 +0200 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> References: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070514100429.021ba0b4@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sun, 13 May 2007 21:39:00 -0500 Jim Leonard wrote: > My concern is that it takes nearly two hours to fill a DLT IV (35GB) > tape, regardless of which drive I use or HBA settings I configure. > The Quantum drive averages 4168 kB/s; the SUN drive is slower and > averages 3355 kB/s. Are these times normal? That speed seems quite reasonible. I think you can now get an impression why "modern" file systems have a snapshoot function to assist long backup runs. > With such large capacities per tape, I would have assumed they could > be filled faster... They are reporting a 10MB/s speed, why am I > getting only 4MB/s? Don't confuse interface speed vs. actual media speed. > Another question: Is it normal for DLT drives to go faster if > compression is disabled? Maybe. If compression is enabled it can swallow more data. Your computer has to deliver this data. Your backup programm and disks my not be able to stream enough data to the drive to keep the drive bussy when compression is enabled. This resuls in sawing the tape back and forth. Somthing that will drop the over all data rate dramaticaly and stress the tape as well as the tape drive. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Mon May 14 05:02:38 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:02:38 +0100 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <46434C7A.29527.206520E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4643317B.9243.19CDE5C@cclist.sydex.com> <46434C7A.29527.206520E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <11c909eb0705140302w3219bd4eo176533c5148a7c30@mail.gmail.com> There's a CDC Terminal and related ephemera, some of which at least mentions PLATO on eBay UK, 130113266639 -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 14 05:24:38 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 06:24:38 -0400 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> References: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070514102438.F067DBA4413@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > My concern is that it takes nearly two hours to fill a DLT IV (35GB) > tape, regardless of which drive I use or HBA settings I configure. The > Quantum drive averages 4168 kB/s; the SUN drive is slower and averages > 3355 kB/s. Are these times normal? With such large capacities per > tape, I would have assumed they could be filled faster... They are > reporting a 10MB/s speed, why am I getting only 4MB/s? 10MB/s is the bus speed, not the drive speed. > Another question: Is it normal for DLT drives to go faster if > compression is disabled? I thought the point of hardware compression > was that it came without cost. I'm running a test now, but was curious > to know if other drives were known for being "slower" with compression on. If, after the data is compressed, the net tape speed is too slow to keep the drive streaming, then you can find marked and drastic slowdowns in tape speed as the drive begins shoeshining. Putting more buffering in can make the shoeshining penalty not so large, but it's still there. Digital tape drives and their terminology and technology have been evolving for half a century now. You will find a humongous amount of creeping featuritis in amongst all the useful stuff in addition to all the stuff that was necessary for marketing. (If you want to imagine a bunch of clueless marketing managers insisting that compression has to be in the drive because that's the way the competition has that feature, you wouldn't be too far wrong. But that's a little unfair because we are often using machines with CPU's faster than a MIP or two today, and ten or fifteen years ago that wasn't always the case! And some of us still occasionally use those old CPU's, too!) Tim. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 14 05:46:30 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 05:46:30 -0500 Subject: Motion video on an IBM PC/XT - Methodology In-Reply-To: <4647DA12.9080407@oldskool.org> References: <4647DA12.9080407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46483E06.9020903@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > from, if you have the bandwidth you should grab the MPEG-2 version (big) > because it's DVD quality and best preserves some of the detail necessary > to properly appreciate the piece. (In fact, it looks best burnt to a > DVD and watched on a television proper.) I've often wondered about claims like that. Surely it only looks best watched on a TV proper if the TV is the same aspect ratio as the MPEG, some factor of the framerate, and some factor of the frame dimensions? Otherwise don't you get all sorts of strange image glitches? From fu3.org at gmail.com Mon May 14 05:57:12 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 12:57:12 +0200 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. Message-ID: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> - http://www.switchtech.us/PCmuseum.html This is "SWITCHTECH'S VIRTUAL PC MUSEUM," which is interesting unless it's been posted here hundreds of times before.. ;) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 14 05:51:43 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 05:51:43 -0500 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> References: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46483F3F.3020307@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > My concern is that it takes nearly two hours to fill a DLT IV (35GB) > tape, regardless of which drive I use or HBA settings I configure. The > Quantum drive averages 4168 kB/s; the SUN drive is slower and averages > 3355 kB/s. Are these times normal? Sounds about right to me - I've got my CD collection converted to mp3 and that's around 20GB, and memory says it takes about an hour to run a full backup on. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon May 14 08:17:40 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:17:40 -0400 Subject: Wanted: National Semi VS100 (phoneme generator?) info Message-ID: I went ahead and reverse engineered the TTL on the NETRONICS ELECTRIC MOUTH, so I have a good idea of the addresses, etc. that it uses. The main component on the board is the above mentioned VS100, a 40-pin chip that seems to be (along with 4 ROMs) the heart of the board. Anybody have any info on this guy? Thanks, Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/803 - Release Date: 5/13/2007 12:17 PM From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon May 14 08:55:31 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: National Semi VS100 (phoneme generator?) info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2007, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I went ahead and reverse engineered the TTL on the > NETRONICS ELECTRIC MOUTH, so I have a good idea of > the addresses, etc. that it uses. The main component > on the board is the above mentioned VS100, a 40-pin > chip that seems to be (along with 4 ROMs) the heart > of the board. Anybody have any info on this guy? An old message: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.tandy/tree/browse_frm/month/1987-04/680b5d5b1187ab3d?rnum=41&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fcomp.sys.tandy%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F1987-04%3F ... says that this board is based on a Digitalker MM54104 chip, with a batch of attendant MM52164 ROMS. There's a lot of info to be found about the Digitalker, including an article in the May 1891 issue of Microcomputer which details a circuit for the TRS-80. http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/davies/ictadvsp.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 14 09:32:35 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:32:35 -0500 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) Message-ID: <46487303.8040805@yahoo.co.uk> I'm guessing that old (circa early-70s) electrolytics which have a green cap at one end and a red cap at the other are polarised and that the green end is -ve. Can anyone confirm to save me tracing out schematics? They're in the power supply of an IME-86s calculator and are decidedly past their best :-) (At least four of the ten in the PSU are showing signs of major leakage) The rest of the machine *looks* healthy enough; once I've replaced the electrolytics is there any good reason not to slowly run the system up on a variac (rather than giving it full AC from the start)? From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon May 14 03:01:18 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:01:18 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F01@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi When preserving something you go for the best example you can find. Even so in this case there was no choice involved. I want to keep as original as I can a a PDP-11 from the era when I was working with them. Speed is not an issue and a slower (but working)DEC KDJ11 board would satisfy my criteria for originality. All of your points are well made. One is very important the KDJ11-EB has its memory on the CPU board. Are you saying some models of the KDJ11 do not have their memory on the CPU board? Is it a case of unpopulated sockets and add memory or is it no sockets and no memory? Reading from the factory label the 11/94 was confgured thus Slot 1 M8981 (Now sadly empty) Slot 2 M7914 Slot 3 Empty Slot 4 M8191 KTJ11-B Slot 5 M7547 TUK50-BB Slot 6 Empty Slot 7 Empty Slot 8 Empty Slot 9 M9302 & M9713 So excluding the expensive options can anybody say exactly which board I need. Full module and DEC code to me please. For example only say M8980-AA KDJ11-BB I must get a list of the KDJ11 boards. Iv'e seen one somewhere. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine Sent: 14 May 2007 03:16 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The Last of The Line >Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>On Sunday 13 May 2007 06:28, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > >>Hi All >>Now for my dilemma. Before checking the cost of a KDJ11-EB you are >>advised to make sure pacemaker batteries are fully charged and any >>blood pressue medication has been taken. Take it from me the prices >>are so high they need to join the astronaut corps! >> >..which is probably why your systems were missing the CPU boards when >yo got them... > >>I would like to get at least one of these historic systems running >>again. Suggestions please!! >> >It'd be a lot less expensive to turn it into an 11/84, the CPU for that >(some models of KDJ11-B) should be much less expensive, then just add >memory. :) > Jerome Fine replies: Your suggestion might not be possible. I once had the box and boards for an 11/94. I really can't remember, but there might not have been any slots for the memory. In any case, I am extremely curious. What goal(s) will you achieve? Do you want to run software faster? Is your only goal to have the fastest PDP-11 that DEC ever produced? Note that a number of other companies produced much faster PDP-11 CPU boards. Note that I very much appreciate that from a hardware point of view your goal is extremely gratifying - probably even more than my software goals. I am just curious what your goals are. One of my goals when I run using PDP-11 software is to run as fast as possible. At present I run at about 15 times a PDP-11/93. Very shortly, I hope to be upgrading my hardware and be able to run at 100 times a PDP-11/93 along with the availability of having an extra GigaByte of spare memory for data that may also allow a co-processor to perform CPU intensive calculations. About 20 years ago, I was using a PDP-11/23+ on a system with 4 MB of memory which included a co-processor that used the same memory as the PDP-11/23+. Any finally, although my experience is with an 11/93 on the Qbus, I found that there is very little difference between an 11/93 and an 11/83 as far as CPU speed is concerned. That would also be likely to apply to the difference between an 11/94 and an 11/84. Basically, I suggest that the only difference in speed is due to the clock rate of 20 MHz on the 11/93 board and the 18 MHz clock rate (or crystal if you prefer) on the 11/83 board. Otherwise, the PMI memory on the 11/83 is probably about as fast as the on board memory on the 11/93. As for the actual CPU, almost all M8190 quad CPU boards or KDJ11-Bx (maybe all) allow the use of PMI memory which is the primary reason the 11/83 is faster than the 11/73. The other reason is the 18 MHz clock rate on the 11/83 as opposed to the 15 MHz clock rate on the 11/73. So if anyone has a M8190 CPU with non-PMI memory and can find some PMI memory, then as long as there are ABCD slots available for all of the memory and CPU boards, the system will run much faster with PMI memory. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon May 14 06:13:32 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 12:13:32 +0100 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . In-Reply-To: <4A7764A4-80B3-4ED6-8127-12BF339F49AC@neurotica.com> References: <200705121706.l4CH5nn1000622@dewey.classiccmp.org> , <511CB36E-430C-4AC4-886A-88349C573187@mac.com> <464599AB.7189.B03D00F@cclist.sydex.com> <4A7764A4-80B3-4ED6-8127-12BF339F49AC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1179141212.22724.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Sat, 2007-05-12 at 22:18 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 12, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Hi everyone, I have just started up a user group in my area to get > >> together once a month and enjoy old computers and the history, etc. > > David, some folks local to your area who are also on this list might > > be more interested if you could nail down what you mean by "old". To > > some, a Commodore 128 is "old"; others wear socks older than that. > > Yes! > -Dave, Port Charlotte, FL, who thinks a PDP-8/e is "old". :) Funny, I don't think my PDP-11 is *that* old. It seems to date from around 1986. I can't call a computer that was built while I was doing my 'O' grades "old", I just can't... Gordon From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon May 14 10:07:50 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 16:07:50 +0100 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <46487303.8040805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46487303.8040805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 5/14/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I'm guessing that old (circa early-70s) electrolytics which have a green cap > at one end and a red cap at the other are polarised and that the green end is probably but picture please > -ve. Can anyone confirm to save me tracing out schematics? > > They're in the power supply of an IME-86s calculator and are decidedly past > their best :-) (At least four of the ten in the PSU are showing signs of major > leakage) > > The rest of the machine *looks* healthy enough; once I've replaced the > electrolytics is there any good reason not to slowly run the system up on a > variac (rather than giving it full AC from the start)? There are a few designs that needed full on straight away but at that age a variac start is probably ok Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 14 10:23:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:23:30 -0700 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <20070514102438.F067DBA4413@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org>, <20070514102438.F067DBA4413@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <46481C82.19833.14D2E0E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2007 at 6:24, Tim Shoppa wrote: > If, after the data is compressed, the net tape speed is too slow to keep > the drive streaming, then you can find marked and drastic slowdowns > in tape speed as the drive begins shoeshining. Putting more buffering > in can make the shoeshining penalty not so large, but it's still there. Generally, we disabled compression on our applications--we decided it was better to move more tape and keep it moving rather than risking shoeshining with compression. Tape (per megabyte) was comparatively cheap. Which brings up another aspect of the difference between high-end drives such as DLT and the cheap floppy-tape QIC units that cost an order of magnitude less. DLTs/8mm/DDS drives by and large had considerable internal buffering--at least a half-meg and usually more. If you did anything outside of write-after-write type operation, the buffering algorithms could make things seem a little odd. For example, we wrote a volume catalog at the start of each tape (and later updated it after EOT was hit). My initial approach was to simply write the catalog and then read it back to make sure that everything got out to tape correctly. Of course, there was absolutely no tape motion--I was spinning my wheels by writing to and reading from the drive buffer. IIRC, the SCSI spec states that if there's a write pending and there's a change of direction, that pending writes are flushed. It was surprising to witness the number of manufacturers who didn't hew to the spec. Usually, writing a tapemark and then rewinding succeeded in forcing the data to tape, but one or two vendors got a phone call when not even that happened. Similarly, you'd think that write-after-read rules would be universally observed, since they were also called out in the spec. Such was not always the case. I think this is part of the reason why some people talk about "SCSI voodoo"--device firmware didn't always follow the rules. BTW, did you know that the folks at Exabyte were granted a 1997 software patent on the notion of a physical drive backup? I'm not aware that they ever bothered to litigate on the basis of the patent-- there was a ton of prior art that probably wouldn't allow their patent to stand. Cheers, Chuck From wizard at voyager.net Mon May 14 10:32:19 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:32:19 -0400 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <46487303.8040805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46487303.8040805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1179156739.19687.4.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 09:32 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > The rest of the machine *looks* healthy enough; once I've replaced the > electrolytics is there any good reason not to slowly run the system up on a > variac (rather than giving it full AC from the start)? Yes, actually. By using a variac, you would not be eliminating risks, you would be trading them. Any circuit which tries to produce a specific power level or voltage would be forced to draw more current to achieve that goal, thus risking burn-out of the active component or components involved. Rather than running it up slowly, I'd suggest using full power through a circuit with a lower than suggested fuse. Be aware that this call is of a theological rather than engineering nature. There are WAY too many variables to be able to state that one way is better than another with anything like assurance, unless you are speaking of specific components whose behaviors are well known. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 14 10:39:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:39:25 -0400 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . In-Reply-To: <1179141212.22724.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <200705121706.l4CH5nn1000622@dewey.classiccmp.org> <511CB36E-430C-4AC4-886A-88349C573187@mac.com> <464599AB.7189.B03D00F@cclist.sydex.com> <4A7764A4-80B3-4ED6-8127-12BF339F49AC@neurotica.com> <1179141212.22724.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: On 5/14/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Funny, I don't think my PDP-11 is *that* old. It seems to date from > around 1986. I can't call a computer that was built while I was doing > my 'O' grades "old", I just can't... Yeah... the definition of "old" tends to be quite subjective, as in "prior to what was current when _I_ got started with foo." I tend to think of "old" as 100% TTL designs, i.e. - pre-microprocessor, but that's because I got my start with the 6502 and 1802, then later came upon M-series DEC logic-based machines (like the PDP-8/L). -ethan From robert at irrelevant.com Mon May 14 11:48:57 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:48:57 +0100 Subject: Lonely Mac.. Message-ID: <2f806cd70705140948s436edda2p5305e037b0472d3c@mail.gmail.com> I'm mainly a BBC Micro person, but thanks to the local freecycle list, i'm now up to two Apple Macintosh II base units - latest is a IIsi. Unfortunately those are all I've got .. no monitors, no keyboards, no mice. nothing.. These are ADB mouse/kb, so not something I have already.. I've never used a Mac before .. so... has anybody, preferably in the UK, got any spare peripherals going cheep/free so I can at least test them, see what all the fuss was about :-) Cheers, Rob From rickb at bensene.com Mon May 14 11:50:29 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:50:29 -0700 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/14/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I'm guessing that old (circa early-70s) electrolytics which have a green cap > at one end and a red cap at the other are polarised and that the green end is > -ve. Can anyone confirm to save me tracing out schematics? > > They're in the power supply of an IME-86s calculator and are decidedly past > their best :-) (At least four of the ten in the PSU are showing signs of major > leakage) > > The rest of the machine *looks* healthy enough; once I've replaced the > electrolytics is there any good reason not to slowly run the system up on a > variac (rather than giving it full AC from the start)? Not sure on the capacitors. My IME-86 doesn't have any capacitors like this -- all of the ones in mine are actually marked + and -. If you've replaced the capacitors, there's really no need to use the variac to power it up. Typically, the variac is used to slowly ramp the power up to allow old capacitors to be observed to make sure none start leaking or smoking. Other times variacs are used (typically with a dummy load in place of the actual calculator circuitry) to perform capacitor reformation. One thing that using a variac to power up a machine like this is that power--on initialization circuitry can become quite confused when the power doesn't come up at the normal rate. This can mean that when the variac gets up to full voltage, the calculator may "act" dead, and require pressing "CLEAR" to reset the machine. Sometimes, though, this doesn't even work as the logic is so locked up that the "CLEAR" key won't even make it right. The suggestion of powering up with a smaller fuse in place is a good idea, though you have to be careful, as if the fuse pops, you're not really sure if it popped because the rating is too low, or if there's a fault which caused it to blow. One thing that I'd recommend before powering it up is to pull all of the cards (except the core card, which is hard-wired in IIRC), and clean all of the edge connector fingers. Even light levels of corrosion on the edge connector fingers can cause enough resistance to throw off the logic levels and cause the machine to malfunction. IME's early calculators are quite wonderful machines. The machines have a particularly interesting legacy in that the Japanese company Nippon Computing Machine (a.k.a. Busicom) copied the early IME designs to create their first calculator. NCM/Busicom became famous for developing the first electronic calculator (in conjunction with Intel) to utilize a microprocessor (the Intel 8008) rather than a hard-wired or microprogrammed calculator-specific architecture. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 14 11:43:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:43:17 -0500 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <1179156739.19687.4.camel@Darth.Databasics> References: <46487303.8040805@yahoo.co.uk> <1179156739.19687.4.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <464891A5.2010700@yahoo.co.uk> Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 09:32 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >> The rest of the machine *looks* healthy enough; once I've replaced the >> electrolytics is there any good reason not to slowly run the system up on a >> variac (rather than giving it full AC from the start)? > > > Yes, actually. By using a variac, you would not be eliminating > risks, you would be trading them. Any circuit which tries to produce a > specific power level or voltage would be forced to draw more current to > achieve that goal, thus risking burn-out of the active component or > components involved. I had that sort of thing at the back of my mind - but a variac often seems to come up when systems which have linear PSUs are mentioned. Like you say, it seems highly dependent on the circuit in question... > Rather than running it up slowly, I'd suggest using full power > through a circuit with a lower than suggested fuse. Be aware that this > call is of a theological rather than engineering nature. That does perhaps seem a better approach, given the unknowns. I'll run the supply up first with no cards in place. I'm not sure whether it's wise to give it a dummy load or not... I suppose it is, purely from the point of view that it might encourage anything in the PSU circuit that's going to let go to do so when there aren't "expensive" boards in place. (That in turn begs the question: does anyone with one of these calculators happen to have the PSU test points / correct output voltages noted down already?) cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 14 11:49:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:49:04 -0500 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: References: <46487303.8040805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46489300.5070109@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Caroline wrote: > On 5/14/07, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> I'm guessing that old (circa early-70s) electrolytics which have a >> green cap >> at one end and a red cap at the other are polarised and that the green >> end is > > probably but picture please Will see what I can do! Thankfully the card-cage hinges, so I should be able to take a photo without any serious dismantling! I made a note of the text on the capacitors earlier: CIRCE MCB1000 uF1000V12 and CIRCE MCC1000 uF1000V25 ... which at least gives manufacturer and apparent part number (MCC/MCB 1000) along with the spec. The end caps are just blobs of coloured resin/plastic around the axial leads, rather than being some form of made-for-the-purpose thing. No doubt common in equipment of this era... > There are a few designs that needed full on straight away but at that > age a variac start is probably ok I wonder if there's any reason to disconnect the Nixie display too whilst initially powering the cards? (i.e. are Nixies particularly prone to any sudden changes in voltage, such as might be brought about if something on one of the cards decides to let go?) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 14 11:58:43 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:58:43 -0500 Subject: CBM Plus/4 sluggish keyboard Message-ID: <46489543.1030109@yahoo.co.uk> I'm leaning toward the idea of offloading my Plus/4 as it's sat in the attic for years and I've never got around to *doing* anything with it. :-( It works, but some of the keys are a bit sluggish - are there any gotchas involved in dismantling the keyboard in order to give contacts a clean? (I just want to check I'm not going to be faced with tiny springs going every which way if I unscrew the backplate :-) Also, am I right in thinking that the tape unit was an optional extra? I don't have one [1], but looking at the boxed plus/4 on ebay at the moment, it doesn't seem to include one either in the standard package. [1] I *did* have a broken one once, but it's either seriously buried or I tossed it out long ago. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 14 12:08:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 10:08:45 -0700 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4648352D.16022.15333D66@cclist.sydex.com> Would it perhaps be better to insert a series resistance with the mains supply rather than a variac? This would allow full line voltage to be present at the input of the PSU, yet provide a bit of protection should something start to draw a too-large amount of current. I'll usually insert an appropriately-sized incandescent lamp in series with the line when I'm powering up an older piece of equipment in unknown condition. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 14 12:12:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 12:12:34 -0500 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46489882.1060208@yahoo.co.uk> Rick Bensene wrote: > Not sure on the capacitors. My IME-86 doesn't have any capacitors like > this -- all of the ones in mine are actually marked + and -. You're lucky :-) I suspect it's the same power board, just with different parts (Looking from the back: four vertical 1000uF at 12V capacitors on the left, three vertical 1000uF at 25V capacitors on the right, then below these are two 100uF at 100V horizontal capacitors on the left and one 1000uF at 25V horizontal capacitor on the right) The two 100V ones are copper-coloured and are marked with +/-, it's just the others that are silver and have the coloured end caps. > If you've replaced the capacitors, there's really no need to use the > variac to power it up. Noted - thanks. I was mainly wondering about the caps on the cards, but then I suppose these are all fed from supply rails that are no doubt regulated, so there's no way to bring them up slowly. > One thing that I'd recommend before powering it up is to pull all of the > cards (except the core card, which is hard-wired in IIRC), and clean all > of the edge connector fingers. Even light levels of corrosion on the > edge connector fingers can cause enough resistance to throw off the > logic levels and cause the machine to malfunction. Will do. I've had all the cards in the right-hand cage out already and everything *looks* remarkably clean, but then appearances can be deceptive :-) I'm yet to look at the left-hand cage (which contains the core) - I think I could see a few electrolytics in there which will need inspecting. > IME's early calculators are quite wonderful machines. I'm a sucker for anything with Nixies inside :-) Plus I've wanted an early electronic calculator for quite some time, so it was too good to ignore. It cleaned up really well (there was a *lot* of dirt on the outside, despite the inside being so clean). The keyboard panel's slightly less than perfect though, with a couple of scratches - I can't decide whether to strip and respray it in as close to original colour as possible, or whether to keep it as-is, warts and all. I'm saving that call for after I see how close to working it is! cheers Jules From jim at photojim.ca Mon May 14 12:50:04 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:50:04 -0600 Subject: CBM Plus/4 sluggish keyboard References: <46489543.1030109@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <01fe01c79650$4d9fb210$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:58 AM Subject: CBM Plus/4 sluggish keyboard > Also, am I right in thinking that the tape unit was an optional extra? I > don't have one [1], but looking at the boxed plus/4 on ebay at the moment, > it doesn't seem to include one either in the standard package. The Plus/4 didn't come with any storage devices, but does work with the 1531 Datassette. (Unfortunately, the C2N and 1530 that work on the PET, C64, C128 and VIC-20 don't work on the Plus/4. The 1531 does come with an adapter to let it work on the older Commodores though.) The 1541 disk drive for the C64 works fine on the Plus/4. So will the 1540, 1570, 1571, 1581 and any other IEC-based Commodore serial disk drive, although the drives that support fast serial bus data transfer (like the 1571) don't support the fast mode with the Plus/4. The 1551 drive was specifically made for the Plus/4 but is rare and pricey. It's a fast drive that plugs into the cartridge port. The disk format is the same as the 1540/1541's. I actually have the Datassette for this computer, but I lost the auction on the accompanying Plus/4. Warning: if you plan to tempt me with yours, I'm cheap. I buy this stuff to play with, not to collect. :) Jim From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 14 13:04:02 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:04:02 -0500 Subject: CBM Plus/4 sluggish keyboard In-Reply-To: <01fe01c79650$4d9fb210$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <46489543.1030109@yahoo.co.uk> <01fe01c79650$4d9fb210$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <4648A492.8040105@yahoo.co.uk> Jim MacKenzie wrote: >> Also, am I right in thinking that the tape unit was an optional extra? >> I don't have one [1], but looking at the boxed plus/4 on ebay at the >> moment, it doesn't seem to include one either in the standard package. > > The Plus/4 didn't come with any storage devices, but does work with the > 1531 Datassette. Yes, that's the critter... I think I've still got the manual for it, but I have no idea if I've still got the thing itself. > I actually have the Datassette for this computer, but I lost the auction > on the accompanying Plus/4. Warning: if you plan to tempt me with > yours, I'm cheap. I buy this stuff to play with, not to collect. :) :-) The machines seem to be one of those slightly odd classes of vintage hardware - not particularly common, but not particularly collectible either. I'm not sure why - I mean I know they had something of a bad rep at the time, but I'm surprised they're not more sought-after these days. I got this one just because something a little less common always appeals - but then never got chance to do anything with it as my collection took off in other directions. (I've actually got a second Plus/4 to optionally throw in with this one - but it's dead, and lacks a PSU, so is good for spares only) I still need to hunt out the manuals too - they're *somewhere* :-) From rtellason at verizon.net Mon May 14 13:10:47 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 14:10:47 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <1DA1986C-D53A-4EA2-B1F1-64EE9E0539E0@neurotica.com> References: <1DA1986C-D53A-4EA2-B1F1-64EE9E0539E0@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200705141410.47583.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 14 May 2007 02:09, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 13, 2007, at 6:44 PM, Richard wrote: > >> Umm. Have you ever googled for something and had it turn up PDF > >> files? I'd say fully a third of them that I run across contain > >> images of pages, not text. > > > > How do you know it doesn't contain text? > > Because in several instances in which I've downloaded the > referenced PDF file and torn it apart (to re-compress, trim out cover > pages that weren't present in the original document, etc) they've > contained only images. What tools are you using to do this? I have a number of datasheets that I haven't put online yet because they're "branded" with other sites feeling the need to put a "page" in there saying where they've been downloaded from, for example, or other similar nonsense. Something that runs under linux would be preferred. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 13:39:00 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 14:39:00 -0400 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . In-Reply-To: <1179141212.22724.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <200705121706.l4CH5nn1000622@dewey.classiccmp.org> , <511CB36E-430C-4AC4-886A-88349C573187@mac.com> <464599AB.7189.B03D00F@cclist.sydex.com> <4A7764A4-80B3-4ED6-8127-12BF339F49AC@neurotica.com> <1179141212.22724.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: On May 14, 2007, at 7:13 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>>> Hi everyone, I have just started up a user group in my area to get >>>> together once a month and enjoy old computers and the history, etc. >>> David, some folks local to your area who are also on this list might >>> be more interested if you could nail down what you mean by >>> "old". To >>> some, a Commodore 128 is "old"; others wear socks older than that. >> >> Yes! >> -Dave, Port Charlotte, FL, who thinks a PDP-8/e is "old". :) > > Funny, I don't think my PDP-11 is *that* old. It seems to date from > around 1986. I can't call a computer that was built while I was doing > my 'O' grades "old", I just can't... Well, I think a lot of us here are old farts...you're just an older fart than most! ;) [dave dives for cover] What '11 hardware do you have, again? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gtoal at gtoal.com Mon May 14 13:54:47 2007 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:54:47 -0500 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned Message-ID: >> >Google is particularly bad about fetching documents over and over >> >again. >> >> mmm... any evidence they are using OCR to index pdf's? >> >> of all the places I'd *like* them to OCR, it's bitsavers. >> >> in fact, mmmmm, I'd like to connect the two dots. bitsavers >> + google (and, and/all mit, standford, cmu, ... software archives) >> >> something to start mentioning at various fund raising >> cocktail parties :-) > > To be clear - the problem is that Google consumes bandwidth by > repeatedly downloading static documents, verses downloading dynamic > content whose index status might be new or dirty? Guys, if you want bitkeeper OCR'd, have you tried just *asking* Google if they'd do it? They are scanning and OCR'ing huge amounts of paper all the time, working with various libraries. As far as I know, they're doing this for free, because they want all the world's data... It wouldn't hurt to ask... anyone have any contacts at Google? Also, the Internet Archive will accept a DVD by mail of your archives if spidering is too expensive. I gave them a DVD of the Edinburgh Computer History Project last year. (Not sure if the contents are visible online anywhere, but at least they're in the archives and reasonably safe against me trashing my hard drive again...) G From gtoal at gtoal.com Mon May 14 14:18:26 2007 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 14:18:26 -0500 Subject: A twist on emulation... Message-ID: I took a pdp15 compiler and a pdp15 emulator this weekend and hacked them together in a way such that the compiler outputs what looks like a windows executable that you can simply run like a normal DOS (x86 DOS, not the other one) command-line program. The emulator is embedded in the .EXE along with the pdp15 code. It lets you have the experience of writing in an early 1970's language for the PDP15 much as if you'd been on the machine itself, but without the hassle of managing an emulator. The language is an early version of Imp, which predates the more common Imp77 or Imp80 versions; in fact it is actually much closer to the original Atlas Autocode than it is to the final versions of Imp. A significant feature of the language is that it allows embedded PDP15 assembly language. Unfortunately I don't have a document describing the early language, though I do have a few example programs you could look at to pick it up from. The windows-ported binary of the compiler is here: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/windows_port/ see the readme.txt for manual installation instructions. I'll put up the source of the system and some working example imp15 source files in a day or two. meanwhile related files are: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/EMULATOR.txt http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/CompilerOutput.htm http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/hdcomp-emul.i15.html http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/takeon.i15.html http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/gram.txt http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/IMP15SYS.TXT a trivial hello world program looks like this: %begin %print %text 'Welcome to the 1970''s!' %end %of %programme save it as hello.i15 and then execute these commands: imp15 hello link15 hello hello Here are some more example programs; they're not likely to compile or run, they're just for looking at to learn the language: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/hal/7502/hal7502.i15 http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/hal/interdata/hal70.i15 http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/pdp915/edit15.txt http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/pdp915/decode.txt The original pdp15 operating system (not needed for this compiler) is here: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/pdp915/ The operating system was basically a run-time environment for the Imp compiler. Graham From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 14 14:24:27 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:24:27 +0100 Subject: CBM Plus/4 sluggish keyboard In-Reply-To: <01fe01c79650$4d9fb210$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: On 14/5/07 18:50, "Jim MacKenzie" wrote: > The 1551 drive was specifically made for the Plus/4 but is rare and pricey. > It's a fast drive that plugs into the cartridge port. The disk format is > the same as the 1540/1541's. This one? http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Commodore/cbm1551.jpg Rare and pricey eh, don't tell that to the bloke at the car boot sale who I bought this from for about ukp5 :o) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jim at photojim.ca Mon May 14 14:35:35 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:35:35 -0600 Subject: CBM Plus/4 sluggish keyboard References: Message-ID: <024801c7965f$0b4be050$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Graham" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 1:24 PM Subject: Re: CBM Plus/4 sluggish keyboard > This one? > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Commodore/cbm1551.jpg > > Rare and pricey eh, don't tell that to the bloke at the car boot sale who > I > bought this from for about ukp5 :o) > Good score! You got a good deal on it - particularly if it works. Jim From rogpugh at mac.com Mon May 14 14:36:41 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:36:41 +0100 Subject: Lonely Mac.. In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70705140948s436edda2p5305e037b0472d3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f806cd70705140948s436edda2p5305e037b0472d3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179171402.4650.13.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 17:48 +0100, Rob wrote: > I'm mainly a BBC Micro person, but thanks to the local freecycle list, > i'm now up to two Apple Macintosh II base units - latest is a IIsi. > > Unfortunately those are all I've got .. no monitors, no keyboards, no > mice. nothing.. These are ADB mouse/kb, so not something I have > already.. > > I've never used a Mac before .. so... has anybody, preferably in the > UK, got any spare peripherals going cheep/free so I can at least test > them, see what all the fuss was about :-) > > Cheers, > > Rob i dont have any spares but there will proberbly be someone on one of the www.lowendmac.com groups that have! roger From dgreelish at mac.com Mon May 14 14:58:11 2007 From: dgreelish at mac.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 12:58:11 -0700 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . Message-ID: >From: "Ethan Dicks" >Yeah... the definition of "old" tends to be quite subjective, as in >"prior to what was current when _I_ got started with foo." > >I tend to think of "old" as 100% TTL designs, i.e. - >pre-microprocessor, but that's because I got my start with the 6502 >and 1802, then later came upon M-series DEC logic-based machines (like >the PDP-8/L). Well, what I'm trying to do is essentially create a mini VCF that meets each month, so at least for now, the rules are pretty loose. I'll see how many show up this Saturday, then in a month and so on. There is a much smaller potential pool of members on a local level, but I have hopes! Go north-east Florida, we can do it. I'll just mostly stick to the ten year rule for now. I just hope to have a lot of fun and see and "play" with some cool machines I haven't seen that much, or at all. Perhaps a swap meet twice a year would be great too. Best, David David Greelish classiccomputing.com The Classic Computing Podcast Home of Computer History Nostalgia Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 14 14:58:07 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:58:07 +0100 Subject: CBM Plus/4 sluggish keyboard In-Reply-To: <024801c7965f$0b4be050$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: On 14/5/07 20:35, "Jim MacKenzie" wrote: > >> This one? >> >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Commodore/cbm1551.jpg >> >> Rare and pricey eh, don't tell that to the bloke at the car boot sale who >> I >> bought this from for about ukp5 :o) >> > > Good score! You got a good deal on it - particularly if it works. It was NOS when I got it 6 or 7 years ago and it's been in storage ever since, when it eventually gets to me in the next couple of months I'll dig out a plus/4 and pair the 2. Of course, there's more chance of the plus/4 being toast :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon May 14 15:02:01 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F01@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F01@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > When preserving something you go for the best example you can find. > Even so in this case there was no choice involved. I want to keep as > original as I can a a PDP-11 from the era when I was working with them. > Speed is not an issue and a slower (but working)DEC KDJ11 board would > satisfy my criteria for originality. I've never met an 11/94, so I'm no expert. My understanding of the situation was the 11/94 was built when it became possible to put all of the memory on the CPU board. The 11/84 used a CPU board without memory. The memory was in the slots between the CPU board and the UNIBUS adapter, communicating with the CPU board using a private memory interconnect protocol. I don't recall whether there was an additional ribbon cable across the top, like the MicroVAX II. I'm pretty certain (but, have been wrong before) that the KDJ11-BB would be the 11/83 or 11/84 CPU; they used the same CPU board, differing in the backplane and whether the UNIBUS adapter was present. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 14 15:09:26 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 15:09:26 -0500 Subject: Lonely Mac.. In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70705140948s436edda2p5305e037b0472d3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f806cd70705140948s436edda2p5305e037b0472d3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4648C1F6.4020502@yahoo.co.uk> Rob wrote: > I'm mainly a BBC Micro person, but thanks to the local freecycle list, > i'm now up to two Apple Macintosh II base units - latest is a IIsi. Where's 'local'? You can probably find someone on your doorstep with some, so no need for postage. Might be worth posting to uk.comp.vintage and asking there too... cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 14 15:20:37 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:20:37 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F01@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F01@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4648C495.3010701@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/05/2007 09:01, Rod Smallwood wrote: > All of your points are well made. One is very important the KDJ11-EB has > its memory on the CPU board. Are you saying some models of the KDJ11 do > not have their memory on the CPU board? Is it a case of unpopulated > sockets and add memory or is it no sockets and no memory? KDJ11-E (M8981) is a quad-height board used in 11/93 and 11/94, running at 18MHz, with up to 4MB of RAM on board. It also has a floating point processor, boot ROMs, line time clock, and 8(?) serial ports. KDJ11-D (M7554) is a quad-height board used in 11/53, usually running at 15MHz, with either 512KB or 1.5MB of RAM, boot ROMs, LTC, and 2 SLUs. It's one of the slowest KDJ11s; the 11/53 was meant as a low-cost system. The same board, but with different ROMs and different handles (KDJ11-S), was used in some tabletop systems. KDJ11-B (M8190) is a quad-height board with no RAM (and no sockets for it), but with boot ROMs, LTC, and 2 SLUs. It was available as 15MHz for the 11/73, and 18MHz for the 11/83 and 11/84. 18MHz versions normally included the FPJ11 floating point processor chip; 15MHz usually merely had the socket; some early 15MHz versions won't accept an FPJ11 chip. These boards will work with PMI memory as well as with ordinary QBus memory. KDJ11-A (M8192) is a dual-height board clocked at 15MHz, with no RAM, boot ROMs, LTC, SLUs, or other embellishments. In other words, it's just a CPU. Used in a few 11/73S systems, as an OEM board, and for 11/23 upgrades. Early revisions won't accept an FPJ11 chip. See Micronotes 25, 30, and 39. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 14 15:27:06 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:27:06 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F01@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4648C61A.90600@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/05/2007 21:02, Roger Ivie wrote: > The 11/84 used a CPU board without memory. The memory was in the slots > between the CPU board and the UNIBUS adapter, communicating with the CPU > board using a private memory interconnect protocol. It doesn't need a ribbon cable, but PMI uses the CD-interconnect instead of the QBus, and the memory has to be in a higher slot (physically, that is; ie a lower-numbered slot) than the CPU. I thought the Unibus adapter went below the CPU. However, I've only met an 11/84 once, and that was a long time ago, so I can't be sure about the Unibus adapter placement. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mikep at triadcomputer.com Mon May 14 12:06:57 2007 From: mikep at triadcomputer.com (Mike Pisciotta) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 10:06:57 -0700 Subject: hp 9153c Message-ID: <000e01c7964a$47fc4590$9601a8c0@mikenatnathan> Hi Phillip, My company TRIAD sells HP legacy and other IT hardware. I came across your name going through some old User Group threads. Do you still require legacy HP or other IT hardware quotes? TRIAD offers expert techs in HP, Cisco, IBM and Liebert and we'd like to be a vendor for you if appropriate. Cheers, Mike Mike Pisciotta Hardware Sales TRIAD Computer Connection Office: 425-402-1700 Cell: 831-566-9270 Fax: 425-402-1777 mikep at triadcomputer.com From blakespot at gmail.com Mon May 14 12:34:04 2007 From: blakespot at gmail.com (Blake Patterson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:34:04 -0400 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b7d63a40705141034i7fd41aa2h348335f05587e089@mail.gmail.com> Nice link. As a collector, I enjoy perusing others piles as well. :-) Let me offer these links of what I've gathered over the years: http://www.blakespot.com/list/ http://pix.blakespot.com/view/computers/ http://www.bytecellar.com/qtvr.html I hope someone enjoys. bp On 5/14/07, from at fu3.org wrote: > - http://www.switchtech.us/PCmuseum.html > > This is "SWITCHTECH'S VIRTUAL PC MUSEUM," which is interesting unless > it's been posted here hundreds of times before.. ;) > -- Heisenberg may have slept here. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon May 14 14:01:44 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:01:44 +0100 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F0B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well now let me see now I left School for College in 1964. My major subjects were Industrial Electronics and Computing. We were taken to Harwell Research centre to see 'The' Computer. It was an ICL 1900 series system. It took up three floors of a substantial building. Input on the top floor (80col Cards and papertape). Processing and storage on the middle floor and output on the ground floor. Had to be that way or the vibration from the line printers would have shaken the building to pieces. I remember it was called Atlas and even had an operating system called George III. So that's just over 40 years ago. In computer terms certainly vintage if not veteran. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 14 May 2007 16:39 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: A local computer history group for my area . . . On 5/14/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Funny, I don't think my PDP-11 is *that* old. It seems to date from > around 1986. I can't call a computer that was built while I was doing > my 'O' grades "old", I just can't... Yeah... the definition of "old" tends to be quite subjective, as in "prior to what was current when _I_ got started with foo." I tend to think of "old" as 100% TTL designs, i.e. - pre-microprocessor, but that's because I got my start with the 6502 and 1802, then later came upon M-series DEC logic-based machines (like the PDP-8/L). -ethan From ed at ed-thelen.org Mon May 14 15:44:15 2007 From: ed at ed-thelen.org (Ed Thelen) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:44:15 -0700 Subject: Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) Message-ID: <007e01c79668$a4b2e0a0$0300a8c0@TIGERTV> Message: 12 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:32:35 -0500 From: Jules Richardson Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <46487303.8040805 at yahoo.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed ... > They're in the power supply of an IME-86s calculator and > are decidedly past their best :-) (At least four of the ten > in the PSU are showing signs of major leakage) I'm the power supply guy in a large restoration effort. http://www.ed-thelen.org/1401Project/1401RestorationPage.html http://www.ed-thelen.org/1401Project/TricksForCapacitors.html Fortunately, there were only linear supplies, (suitable switching devices not yet available for switching power supplies - another interesting game :-)) The machines (and currents) were large and most electrolytics were the screw connector types. After considerable experience, and using an ESR (Effective Series Resistance) unit to verify performance of the re-formed electrolytics, I went to replacing only those capacitors with "major" leakage, and testing ripple for "excessive" and that everything was "cool enough" when power supply running rated voltage and current. > The rest of the machine *looks* healthy enough; once > I've replaced the electrolytics is there any good reason > not to slowly run the system up on a variac > (rather than giving it full AC from the start)? A vital thing to watch out for in this business is motors. Most types of motors depend on sufficient source voltage to get started and generating "back EMF (voltage)" to limit current. I was using the variac technique on an old key punch when we began to hear a loud hummmm - the capacitor start motor was not moving and getting warm :-((( Interestingly, we have not had to "re-form" any capacitors on capacitor start motors!! ?? I have no clue why. One would reasonably expect some effort there. Enjoy :-)) From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon May 14 16:08:11 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 22:08:11 +0100 Subject: Lonely Mac.. In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70705140948s436edda2p5305e037b0472d3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f806cd70705140948s436edda2p5305e037b0472d3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4648CFBB.9000704@gifford.co.uk> Rob wrote: > I'm mainly a BBC Micro person, but thanks to the local freecycle list, I recently acquired some BBCs from FreeCycle! > i'm now up to two Apple Macintosh II base units - latest is a IIsi. > > Unfortunately those are all I've got .. no monitors, no keyboards, no > mice. nothing.. These are ADB mouse/kb, so not something I have > already.. > > I've never used a Mac before .. so... has anybody, preferably in the > UK, got any spare peripherals going cheep/free so I can at least test > them, see what all the fuss was about :-) I can let you have a 17" monitor -- maybe two. Probably an ADB keyboard/mouse, too. I'm in Bristol, near the M4/M5/M32 junctions. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 16:21:11 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:21:11 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <200705141410.47583.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <1DA1986C-D53A-4EA2-B1F1-64EE9E0539E0@neurotica.com> <200705141410.47583.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On May 14, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>>> Umm. Have you ever googled for something and had it turn up PDF >>>> files? I'd say fully a third of them that I run across contain >>>> images of pages, not text. >>> >>> How do you know it doesn't contain text? >> >> Because in several instances in which I've downloaded the >> referenced PDF file and torn it apart (to re-compress, trim out cover >> pages that weren't present in the original document, etc) they've >> contained only images. > > What tools are you using to do this? I have a number of datasheets > that I > haven't put online yet because they're "branded" with other sites > feeling the > need to put a "page" in there saying where they've been downloaded > from, for > example, or other similar nonsense. > > Something that runs under linux would be preferred. I use PDFLab under MacOS X. I've not yet found anything portable that does the job...that's not to say that it doesn't exist, just that I haven't found it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 14 17:27:04 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:27:04 -0500 Subject: Motion video on an IBM PC/XT - Methodology In-Reply-To: <46483E06.9020903@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4647DA12.9080407@oldskool.org> <46483E06.9020903@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4648E238.6090107@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: >> from, if you have the bandwidth you should grab the MPEG-2 version >> (big) because it's DVD quality and best preserves some of the detail >> necessary to properly appreciate the piece. (In fact, it looks best >> burnt to a DVD and watched on a television proper.) > > I've often wondered about claims like that. Surely it only looks best > watched on a TV proper if the TV is the same aspect ratio as the MPEG, > some factor of the framerate, and some factor of the frame dimensions? > Otherwise don't you get all sorts of strange image glitches? Since the MPEG-2 was mastered for (and on!) an NTSC DVD player connected to an NTSC television, and since I am 100% happy with the quality of that master, that's why I made that comment. It's not like there's a ton of variables; if you play NTSC on NTSC, or PAL on PAL, it looks good... if not, it looks odd or bad (or fine, if you can't notice that sort of thing). It will either look perfect or most definitely not correct. Broadcast standards aside, the video contains some single-pixel detail elements that have been blended out or otherwise lost in all of the other conversions, so that's another reason I mentioned it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfoley at dcs.warwick.ac.uk Mon May 14 17:26:59 2007 From: bfoley at dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Brian Foley) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:26:59 +0100 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: References: <1DA1986C-D53A-4EA2-B1F1-64EE9E0539E0@neurotica.com> <200705141410.47583.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070514222659.GA6981@mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 05:21:11PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > I use PDFLab under MacOS X. I've not yet found anything portable > that does the job...that's not to say that it doesn't exist, just > that I haven't found it. There's a fairly nice command-line based set of Java tools in multivalent that allows you to process PDFs in various different ways. I use it mostly to compress and decompress PDFs, but it also allows you to extract text, reorder pages, split and merge documents and so on. About the only thing I'd like it to do that it doesn't is to extract image resources from a PDF. It can be found at http://multivalent.sourceforge.net/ Cheers, Brian. From bear at typewritten.org Mon May 14 17:28:52 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 15:28:52 -0700 Subject: Sun 2/120 chassis Message-ID: <4F42E5F1-42F7-434E-88DF-820C39A6A02D@TYPEWRITTEN.ORG> Howdy, guys. I'm working on restoring a Sun 2/120. My particular machine appears to have been a diskless workstation (no storage controllers). I think I have enough spares to give it a local disk and QIC-11 drive, but there is no obvious way to mount a drive of any type in the upper part of the chassis. There's a cutout on the front panel, so I know you were at least supposed to be able to put a tape drive up there. Can somebody draw me a picture of how things are supposed to look with drives in the cabinet? I guess if worse came to worst I could attach one of the 511 shoeboxes, but I'd need a panel kit for my multibus SCSI controller. Also: I guess this is a long shot, but I would also like to find a Sun-2 keyboard and mouse for this machine. I'll pay some money for it, if somebody has one they would be willing to part with. Thanks! ok bear From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 14 17:33:02 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:33:02 -0500 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <20070514100429.021ba0b4@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> <20070514100429.021ba0b4@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <4648E39E.4050107@oldskool.org> Jochen Kunz wrote: >> With such large capacities per tape, I would have assumed they could >> be filled faster... They are reporting a 10MB/s speed, why am I >> getting only 4MB/s? > Don't confuse interface speed vs. actual media speed. True, but I didn't have a basis for comparison. I'm hearing that 4MB/s is indeed slightly above par, so I guess I should be happy . -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jclang at notms.net Mon May 14 17:34:48 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:34:48 -0400 Subject: Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <007e01c79668$a4b2e0a0$0300a8c0@TIGERTV> References: <007e01c79668$a4b2e0a0$0300a8c0@TIGERTV> Message-ID: <4648E408.7040309@notms.net> Ed Thelen wrote: > > > Interestingly, we have not had to "re-form" any capacitors > on capacitor start motors!! ?? I have no clue why. > One would reasonably expect some effort there. > > > Most (but not all) motor starting capacitors are oil filled (non-polarized) and do not suffer the same electrolyte breakdown. joe lang From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 14 17:35:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 15:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... Message-ID: <862167.37527.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Rainbow-100-pc_ W0QQitemZ180115684124QQihZ008QQcategory Z4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem nicely equipped. In Canaduh LOL LOL I am still looking for the color card and a monitor. Canada is too far for me to ship. ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 14 17:46:53 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:46:53 -0400 Subject: Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <007e01c79668$a4b2e0a0$0300a8c0@TIGERTV> References: <007e01c79668$a4b2e0a0$0300a8c0@TIGERTV> Message-ID: <20070514224653.7E840BA441D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Ed Thelen" wrote: > Interestingly, we have not had to "re-form" any capacitors > on capacitor start motors!! ?? I have no clue why. > One would reasonably expect some effort there. Those are mostly non-polarized electrolytics, and they do occasionally fail, sometimes rather spectacularly (meaning big bang and lots of mess), at start time. Maybe you've just been lucky :-). Tim. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 14 17:52:13 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:52:13 +0100 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: <862167.37527.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 14/5/07 23:35, "Chris M" wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Rainbow-100-pc_ > W0QQitemZ180115684124QQihZ008QQcategory > Z4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > nicely equipped. In Canaduh LOL LOL > > I am still looking for the color card and a monitor. > Canada is too far for me to ship. *strokes VR241 next to my left foot* I've got another one that I use for my Amiga stuff too. :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 14 17:59:19 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 15:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: opinion needed Message-ID: <712906.34538.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> a very nice man is offering to send me (2) 5170s replete w/5175 monitors and the associated PGA graphics boards. These were used in the "common area" at MIT. As such, do these represent any particular value? I have an AT already, but these are seemingly more interesting having dwelt w/i the hallowed halls of an illustrious technical university. Any thoughts... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 14 18:01:18 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 16:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <225045.49924.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Graham wrote: > On 14/5/07 23:35, "Chris M" > wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Rainbow-100-pc_ > > W0QQitemZ180115684124QQihZ008QQcategory > > Z4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > nicely equipped. In Canaduh LOL LOL > > > > I am still looking for the color card and a > monitor. > > Canada is too far for me to ship. > > *strokes VR241 next to my left foot* > > I've got another one that I use for my Amiga stuff > too. > > :) Oi one option worse then the other LOL. I'm not even aware of what freqs the 'bow's screens operate at, nor the Amigas. I guess they've got to be close though ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 14 17:56:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:56:27 -0500 Subject: Sun 2/120 chassis In-Reply-To: <4F42E5F1-42F7-434E-88DF-820C39A6A02D@TYPEWRITTEN.ORG> References: <4F42E5F1-42F7-434E-88DF-820C39A6A02D@TYPEWRITTEN.ORG> Message-ID: <4648E91B.9070705@yahoo.co.uk> r.stricklin wrote: > Howdy, guys. > > I'm working on restoring a Sun 2/120. My particular machine appears to > have been a diskless workstation (no storage controllers). I think I > have enough spares to give it a local disk and QIC-11 drive, but there > is no obvious way to mount a drive of any type in the upper part of the > chassis. There's a cutout on the front panel, so I know you were at > least supposed to be able to put a tape drive up there. It's a while since I looked at the museum's Sun 2, but that's a 160, which I assume is the same cabinet. There are no hard drives in the main box - it's got another cabinet (of identical size to the CPU cabinet) that houses those. The main cabinet does have the tape unit though, and I can't remember how all that's plumbed in now. I could take a look at the machine at the weekend if needs be (and if it's not currently buried behind a mountain of stuff) > I guess this is a long shot, but I would also like to find a Sun-2 > keyboard and mouse for this machine. I'll pay some money for it, if > somebody has one they would be willing to part with. We're in the same position. Are you trying to get the keyboard/mouse in order to complete the system, or just so that the system works? cheers Jules From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 14 18:12:12 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 16:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Televideo TS-802 also in Canada Message-ID: <698838.92452.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1982-Televideo-TS-802- CP-M-Z80-PC-Computer_W0QQitemZ250077921603QQihZ015 QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From evan at snarc.net Mon May 14 18:23:26 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 19:23:26 -0400 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001701c7967e$dff04660$6501a8c0@evan> What's so great about that? It's just a bland and unoriginal personal web site. -----Original Message----- From: from at fu3.org [mailto:fu3.org at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 6:57 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Nice PC-museum.. - http://www.switchtech.us/PCmuseum.html This is "SWITCHTECH'S VIRTUAL PC MUSEUM," which is interesting unless it's been posted here hundreds of times before.. ;) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 14 18:32:06 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RM Nimbs Message-ID: <227755.65926.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> I didn't know the 'bus took cartridges. How many different kinds were there? Besides the Peanut, the only other PC I'm aware of that used them was the Mindset. Currently I'm missing a huge mega box of docs and stuph for the 'set, and I'm about ready to burst out in tears. ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From fmc at reanimators.org Mon May 14 18:31:53 2007 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 16:31:53 -0700 Subject: Sun 2/120 chassis In-Reply-To: <4F42E5F1-42F7-434E-88DF-820C39A6A02D@TYPEWRITTEN.ORG> (r. stricklin's message of "Mon\, 14 May 2007 15\:28\:52 -0700") References: <4F42E5F1-42F7-434E-88DF-820C39A6A02D@TYPEWRITTEN.ORG> Message-ID: <200705142331.l4ENVrpq055815@lots.reanimators.org> r.stricklin wrote: > I'm working on restoring a Sun 2/120. My particular machine appears to > have been a diskless workstation (no storage controllers). I think I > have enough spares to give it a local disk and QIC-11 drive, but > there is no obvious way to mount a drive of any type in the upper > part of the chassis. There's a cutout on the front panel, so I know > you were at least supposed to be able to put a tape drive up there. > > Can somebody draw me a picture of how things are supposed to look with > drives in the cabinet? There's a top shelf in the cabinet. There's then a mounting bracket. You screw the tape drive and one or two full-height 5.25" hard disks to that bracket, then slide the bracket in from the side and screw it to the shelf. Are you missing the bracket? -Frank McConnell From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 14 18:41:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 16:41:49 -0700 Subject: Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <4648E408.7040309@notms.net> References: <007e01c79668$a4b2e0a0$0300a8c0@TIGERTV>, <4648E408.7040309@notms.net> Message-ID: <4648914D.25302.169B18EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2007 at 18:34, joe lang wrote: > Most (but not all) motor starting capacitors are oil filled > (non-polarized) and do not suffer the same electrolyte > breakdown. The good ones are oil-filled, but electrolytics are far more common today--you hardly can find a motor from the far East now that uses an oil-filled cap. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 17:31:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:31:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: CBM Plus/4 sluggish keyboard In-Reply-To: <46489543.1030109@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at May 14, 7 11:58:43 am Message-ID: > > > I'm leaning toward the idea of offloading my Plus/4 as it's sat in the attic > for years and I've never got around to *doing* anything with it. :-( I have a service manual for the Plus/4 somewhere, but from what I remember it's scheamtics and parts lists, with no details on the internals of the keyboard. > > It works, but some of the keys are a bit sluggish - are there any gotchas > involved in dismantling the keyboard in order to give contacts a clean? (I > just want to check I'm not going to be faced with tiny springs going every > which way if I unscrew the backplate :-) If it's like every other CBM keyboard I've worked on, there are no problems. You may have to desolder wires from any latching keys (Shift Lock or whatever), but that's fairly obvious. > > Also, am I right in thinking that the tape unit was an optional extra? I don't I think so. IIRC, the signals are the same as the ones for, say ,a C64 tape unuit, jsut a different connecotr. It should eb possible to make some kind of adapter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 17:22:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:22:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <46487303.8040805@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at May 14, 7 09:32:35 am Message-ID: > > > I'm guessing that old (circa early-70s) electrolytics which have a green cap > at one end and a red cap at the other are polarised and that the green end is > -ve. Can anyone confirm to save me tracing out schematics? I wouldn't put my life on it, but I am pretty darn sure you're correct. > > They're in the power supply of an IME-86s calculator and are decidedly past > their best :-) (At least four of the ten in the PSU are showing signs of major > leakage) I haev an IME86, and even think I know where it is. If you want me to look at the caps in my machine, can you give a description as to where they are. I can then see if mine have other markings. > > The rest of the machine *looks* healthy enough; once I've replaced the > electrolytics is there any good reason not to slowly run the system up on a > variac (rather than giving it full AC from the start)? I've never foudn a variac does any good at all (and in the case of SMPSUs, which approximate a constant power load, they can actually do a lot of harm). What I do is check the earth wire continuity (at a test current at least twice the fuse rating to pick up marginal connections), then 'Megger' the transformer and amins side stuff. If that's OK, I am pretty confident it's not going to harm me. I then power it up with a suitable light bulb in series with the mains as a current limiter. That will protect things in the eventt of a major short in the PSU section (for example, if a rectifier has shorted, that light bulb will protect the trasnfroemr) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 17:28:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:28:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <46489300.5070109@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at May 14, 7 11:49:04 am Message-ID: > I wonder if there's any reason to disconnect the Nixie display too whilst > initially powering the cards? (i.e. are Nixies particularly prone to any > sudden changes in voltage, such as might be brought about if something on one > of the cards decides to let go?) Not really. Nicie tubes are really just fancy neon bulbs, and are not easily killed by (sensible) overvoltage. What will ruin them is excessive overcurrent, but as there's a current limiting resistor in series with the anode connection anyway (there has to be, think of the characteristics of a neon blub), sane increases in the supply line voltage won't do much harm Many devices with nixe tube displays fed the nixies from an unregulated supply line, so obviiuosly changes in the supply didn't do any real damage. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 14 18:46:39 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 16:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for System III/PC-UX for NEC APC III Message-ID: <607919.95442.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> If you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, I guess you wouldn't have it then, huh? ____________________________________________________________________________________Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 18:49:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 00:49:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: <225045.49924.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 14, 7 04:01:18 pm Message-ID: > Oi one option worse then the other LOL. I'm not even > aware of what freqs the 'bow's screens operate at, nor > the Amigas. I guess they've got to be close though ;) THe 'Bow is pretty much standard TV rates. I can't remember if it only does the US rates (15.570kHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) or whether it also does the European rates (15.625kHz horizontal, 50Hz vertical). The hardware should be capable of both, BTW. Given that the Amiga, at least in Europe, had applications in amateur video productions, I assume its output is at standard TV rates too. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 14 19:05:16 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <671704.90728.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> apparently the Rainbow sports a measly 200 lines of resolution. But one mode does 800 pels horizontally! What's up with that? I had thought the 'miga had some non-interlaced modes (which still would be ntsc comparable frequencies), but did the hi-res stuff interlaced, so as also allowing the use of a broadcast monitor. ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 14 19:22:22 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for System III/PC-UX for NEC APC III In-Reply-To: <607919.95442.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <607919.95442.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070514170218.N35663@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 14 May 2007, Chris M wrote: > If you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, I > guess you wouldn't have it then, huh? "Naaah. All that we've got for the APC3 is this big box of different operating systems." :-) From ragooman at comcast.net Mon May 14 19:27:57 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:27:57 -0400 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <4648352D.16022.15333D66@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4648352D.16022.15333D66@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4648FE8D.2020502@comcast.net> Anytime you use a variac, it is wise to put a current limiter in series. This can be done easily with an incandescent bulb (about 60W or 75W). This prevents any surge entering the circuit if there is a short. The surge in power cause the lamp to glow very bright which creates high resistance thus reducing the current. When a unit is functioning properly without any shorts at nominal voltage, the bulb will just have a faint dim.This is the oldest trick in the book. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Chuck Guzis wrote: > Would it perhaps be better to insert a series resistance with the > mains supply rather than a variac? This would allow full line > voltage to be present at the input of the PSU, yet provide a bit of > protection should something start to draw a too-large amount of > current. > > I'll usually insert an appropriately-sized incandescent lamp in > series with the line when I'm powering up an older piece of equipment > in unknown condition. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 14 19:29:13 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for System III/PC-UX for NEC APC III In-Reply-To: <20070514170218.N35663@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <865053.62258.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 14 May 2007, Chris M wrote: > > If you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, I > > guess you wouldn't have it then, huh? > > "Naaah. All that we've got for the APC3 is this big > box of different > operating systems." :-) Fred this is the "III" not the original APC sporting 8" disk drives. If you do have anything pertinent though, I am of course interested :). I may even have some extra nickels in my pocket for the exchange. ____________________________________________________________________________________Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon May 14 20:00:20 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <4648C61A.90600@dunnington.plus.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F01@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <4648C61A.90600@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2007, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 14/05/2007 21:02, Roger Ivie wrote: > >> The 11/84 used a CPU board without memory. The memory was in the slots >> between the CPU board and the UNIBUS adapter, communicating with the CPU >> board using a private memory interconnect protocol. > > It doesn't need a ribbon cable, but PMI uses the CD-interconnect instead of > the QBus, and the memory has to be in a higher slot (physically, that is; ie > a lower-numbered slot) than the CPU. I thought the Unibus adapter went below > the CPU. However, I've only met an 11/84 once, and that was a long time ago, > so I can't be sure about the Unibus adapter placement. It's been a long time for me, too. You could be right. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From grant at stockly.com Mon May 14 20:06:20 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:06:20 -0800 Subject: Motion video on an IBM PC/XT - Methodology In-Reply-To: <4647DA12.9080407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070514170417.02c14058@pop.1and1.com> At 07:40 PM 5/13/2007, you wrote: >About 3 years ago I announced to the list a little something I'd done with >an IBM PC/XT with CGA that was unconventional for the platform >(full-motion video using stock hardware). I recently gave a talk at a >hacker convention on the complete methodology of how I did it, and the >video of that talk is now available here: > >http://www.archive.org/details/8088CorruptionExplained > >Just thought some people here would be curious to see how it was >accomplished. While there are several versions of the video to choose >from, if you have the bandwidth you should grab the MPEG-2 version (big) >because it's DVD quality and best preserves some of the detail necessary >to properly appreciate the piece. (In fact, it looks best burnt to a DVD >and watched on a television proper.) I have a CompuPro 8088 S-100 board. Maybe a ISA/S-100 bridge is in order. : ) This is a very distracting thought... Very nice video. Good work. Grant From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 14 20:10:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:10:17 -0700 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <4648FE8D.2020502@comcast.net> References: , <4648352D.16022.15333D66@cclist.sydex.com>, <4648FE8D.2020502@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4648A609.19530.16EC16F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2007 at 20:27, Dan wrote: > Anytime you use a variac, it is wise to put a current limiter in series. > This can be done easily with an incandescent bulb (about 60W or 75W). > This prevents any surge entering the circuit if there is a short. The > surge in power cause the lamp to glow very bright which creates high > resistance thus reducing the current. When a unit is functioning > properly without any shorts at nominal voltage, the bulb will just have > a faint dim.This is the oldest trick in the book. Not so fast... If you'll re-read my original post on this, my question related not to using a current limiter in series with the variac, but using one in lieu of the variac. As many have pointed out, running a SMPSU from a variac may not produce the desired result. In fact, I'm wondering if an incandescent with a tungsten filament alone is best for this, rather than, say a carbon resistor with a negative temperature coefficient of resistance, which might ameliorate the inrush current. One could then use an incandescent for current limiting once the inrush problem had been dealt with. Any thoughts on this? Cheers, Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Mon May 14 20:12:37 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 20:12:37 -0500 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: <862167.37527.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <862167.37527.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <624966d60705141812j44110697o8699004222245139@mail.gmail.com> I have a few VR241's and some VR201's along with a bunch of DECMate and Rainbow parts. I'll try to look for a color board later this week. Paul Anderson On 5/14/07, Chris M wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Rainbow-100-pc_ > W0QQitemZ180115684124QQihZ008QQcategory > Z4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > nicely equipped. In Canaduh LOL LOL > > I am still looking for the color card and a monitor. > Canada is too far for me to ship. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > From fu3.org at gmail.com Mon May 14 20:13:25 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 03:13:25 +0200 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <001701c7967e$dff04660$6501a8c0@evan> References: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> <001701c7967e$dff04660$6501a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <310f50ab0705141813p54f623an566c331ec784cc09@mail.gmail.com> Well, I guess it isn't a sight for sour eyes, then.. ;) 2007/5/15, Evan Koblentz : > What's so great about that? It's just a bland and unoriginal personal > web site. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: from at fu3.org [mailto:fu3.org at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 6:57 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Nice PC-museum.. > > - http://www.switchtech.us/PCmuseum.html > > This is "SWITCHTECH'S VIRTUAL PC MUSEUM," which is interesting unless > it's been posted here hundreds of times before.. ;) > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 14 21:01:14 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 22:01:14 -0400 Subject: Televideo TS-802 also in Canada In-Reply-To: <698838.92452.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <698838.92452.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200705142201.15041.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 14 May 2007 19:12, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1982-Televideo-TS-802- > CP-M-Z80-PC-Computer_W0QQitemZ250077921603QQihZ015 > QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem Wow, only $100, and it doesn't come with a keyboard... what a deal. The guy has been relisting that for months. I'm not suprised it hasn't sold yet. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ragooman at comcast.net Mon May 14 21:38:26 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 22:38:26 -0400 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <4648A609.19530.16EC16F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4648352D.16022.15333D66@cclist.sydex.com>, <4648FE8D.2020502@comcast.net> <4648A609.19530.16EC16F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46491D22.5070306@comcast.net> Apparently, you may not realize that a variac can burn up too--variacs cost a pretty penny. The current limiter is a preventive measure. Switched mode power supply designs are used in many applications, beginning with of all places, a modern computer monitor. Variacs have proven to be a valuable tool to diagnose a lot of symptoms.You may want to research this small bit of troubleshooting methodology even further. I wouldn't like to think all our repair manuals have been erroneously filled with uneducated gibberish. :) =Dan >> resistance thus reducing the current. When a unit is functioning >> properly without any shorts at nominal voltage, the bulb will just have >> a faint dim.This is the oldest trick in the book. >> > > Not so fast... > > If you'll re-read my original post on this, my question related not > to using a current limiter in series with the variac, but using one > in lieu of the variac. As many have pointed out, running a SMPSU > from a variac may not produce the desired result. > > In fact, I'm wondering if an incandescent with a tungsten filament > alone is best for this, rather than, say a carbon resistor with a > negative temperature coefficient of resistance, which might > ameliorate the inrush current. One could then use an incandescent > for current limiting once the inrush problem had been dealt with. > > Any thoughts on this? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 14 22:09:45 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:09:45 -0600 Subject: Televideo TS-802 also in Canada In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 14 May 2007 22:01:14 -0400. <200705142201.15041.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: It looks scuffed up too. Besides, you really want the TS-803 which has a much cooler looking case and has graphics :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 14 23:53:14 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:53:14 -0700 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: <4648352D.16022.15333D66@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >Would it perhaps be better to insert a series resistance with the >mains supply rather than a variac? This would allow full line >voltage to be present at the input of the PSU, yet provide a bit of >protection should something start to draw a too-large amount of >current. > >I'll usually insert an appropriately-sized incandescent lamp in >series with the line when I'm powering up an older piece of equipment >in unknown condition. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi It is almost impossible to reform properly with a variac alone. To do it correctly one needs to isolate the capacitor and put a serious current limiting resistor in series. The trick is to limit the current to a value that the forming will not outgas faster than the normal diffusion that the seal can handle. Using something like a 70W lamp would be way to fast. Most times, a large capacitor will need to be formed with a current limit on the order of 5 to 15 ma. Even then, I recommend limiting the voltage with a variac and watching the current by measuring the voltage across the resistor. Went the current stabilizes at a particular voltage, I turn the voltage up. As for burning up a variac, they can handle a high current load long enough to blow a fuse, even a dead short. For 25 to 50 volt caps, I recommend starting with the voltage limited to about 5 volts, for the first part of the cycle. If it forms too fast, the seal will burst and the cap will soon dry out. All that being said, I've just turned on powersupplies that have been off for upto 5 years without worry. I've had a few tantalums pop but these go with or without forming. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 15 00:14:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 22:14:10 -0700 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) In-Reply-To: References: <4648352D.16022.15333D66@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4648DF32.4244.17CB5D0A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2007 at 21:53, dwight elvey wrote: > All that being said, I've just turned on powersupplies that > have been off for upto 5 years without worry. I've had a > few tantalums pop but these go with or without forming. Tantalums going don't scare me--and neither do old electrolytics blowing their seals. What really scares me are those old steel- jacketed-epoxy-sealed caps that you can often find in old military gear. I've had one or two of those blow suddenly and leave shrapnel in the ceiling. Loud and scary. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 15 00:44:02 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 00:44:02 -0500 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F01@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <4648C61A.90600@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <464948A2.90909@mdrconsult.com> Roger Ivie wrote: > On Mon, 14 May 2007, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> >> On 14/05/2007 21:02, Roger Ivie wrote: >> >>> The 11/84 used a CPU board without memory. The memory was in the slots >>> between the CPU board and the UNIBUS adapter, communicating with the CPU >>> board using a private memory interconnect protocol. >> >> It doesn't need a ribbon cable, but PMI uses the CD-interconnect >> instead of the QBus, and the memory has to be in a higher slot >> (physically, that is; ie a lower-numbered slot) than the CPU. I >> thought the Unibus adapter went below the CPU. However, I've only met >> an 11/84 once, and that was a long time ago, so I can't be sure about >> the Unibus adapter placement. > > It's been a long time for me, too. You could be right. I think you're both right. There are 2 different 11/84 chassis. If I remember right, one has the Qbus-Unibus adapter in the far-end slot, and the other is between the Qbus and Unibus slots. It's been a while since I had either one open, though, so I might be smoking crack. Doc From grant at stockly.com Tue May 15 00:53:37 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:53:37 -0800 Subject: Giant LED Displays - Re: Motion video on an IBM PC/XT - Methodology In-Reply-To: <4647DA12.9080407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070514212256.031b65f0@pop.1and1.com> At 07:40 PM 5/13/2007, you wrote: >About 3 years ago I announced to the list a little something I'd done with >an IBM PC/XT with CGA that was unconventional for the platform >(full-motion video using stock hardware). I recently gave a talk at a >hacker convention on the complete methodology of how I did it, and the >video of that talk is now available here: > >http://www.archive.org/details/8088CorruptionExplained This whole discussion has reminded me of an unfinished project of mine, a 192x99, 19,008 pixel LED display. I have not manufactured the driver circuits, but they have been designed. The display is organized/refreshed as 11x1728. 8x11 characters look very good to me, so I designed it to handle 24 wide by 9 high characters. Here are pictures of it: Front: http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-LED_Display_Front_2718.jpg Back: http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-LED_Display_Back_2716.jpg Weight of all the legs: http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-Weight_of_39584_Legs_2696.jpg As you can see from the pictures it is as big as a couch. : ) I built it in the spirit of blinkin lights for my Altair. 19008 LEDs is 2376 bytes, 71280 bytes a second at 30 frames. The altair should be able to handle this...??? Any ideas? I would really love if it could handle a shade or two of grey. : ) I'm considering now building a driver out of an FPGA. It would be able to handle a fast refresh rate and frame rate in order to get grey scales. I was thinking 4 shades would be enough. The FPGA might even be able to act as the dual port SRAM for the bitmap display? Any ideas how I should proceed? : ) You can find my thread on this on USENET called "Wall of RAM". I have copied it here: http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21 Grant From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon May 14 16:41:48 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 22:41:48 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F0C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Ah Ha ... Thanks and the memory card would be a ???? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Ivie Sent: 14 May 2007 21:02 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: RE: The Last of The Line On Mon, 14 May 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > When preserving something you go for the best example you can find. > Even so in this case there was no choice involved. I want to keep as > original as I can a a PDP-11 from the era when I was working with them. > Speed is not an issue and a slower (but working)DEC KDJ11 board would > satisfy my criteria for originality. I've never met an 11/94, so I'm no expert. My understanding of the situation was the 11/94 was built when it became possible to put all of the memory on the CPU board. The 11/84 used a CPU board without memory. The memory was in the slots between the CPU board and the UNIBUS adapter, communicating with the CPU board using a private memory interconnect protocol. I don't recall whether there was an additional ribbon cable across the top, like the MicroVAX II. I'm pretty certain (but, have been wrong before) that the KDJ11-BB would be the 11/83 or 11/84 CPU; they used the same CPU board, differing in the backplane and whether the UNIBUS adapter was present. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From gordon at gjcp.net Mon May 14 17:14:51 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:14:51 +0100 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . In-Reply-To: References: <200705121706.l4CH5nn1000622@dewey.classiccmp.org> , <511CB36E-430C-4AC4-886A-88349C573187@mac.com> <464599AB.7189.B03D00F@cclist.sydex.com> <4A7764A4-80B3-4ED6-8127-12BF339F49AC@neurotica.com> <1179141212.22724.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <1179180891.20266.1.camel@elric> On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 14:39 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 14, 2007, at 7:13 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>>> Hi everyone, I have just started up a user group in my area to get > >>>> together once a month and enjoy old computers and the history, etc. > >>> David, some folks local to your area who are also on this list might > >>> be more interested if you could nail down what you mean by > >>> "old". To > >>> some, a Commodore 128 is "old"; others wear socks older than that. > >> > >> Yes! > >> -Dave, Port Charlotte, FL, who thinks a PDP-8/e is "old". :) > > > > Funny, I don't think my PDP-11 is *that* old. It seems to date from > > around 1986. I can't call a computer that was built while I was doing > > my 'O' grades "old", I just can't... > > Well, I think a lot of us here are old farts...you're just an > older fart than most! ;) Hm :-/ I'd have said I'm younger than, well, *some* anyway. Probably about 1/3 of the way up the age range, at 33 > [dave dives for cover] > > What '11 hardware do you have, again? Old stuff? The aforementioned 11/73, a Microvax 3300, some Sanyo CP/M86 machine, an Osborne 1, a ZX Spectrum, some not-working Epson HX20s, and a couple of BBCs. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 14 17:22:00 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:22:00 -0400 Subject: A twist on emulation... Message-ID: <0JI100A5QY3XIF18@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> The links do not works from here. I get an operation timed out error. Allison > >Subject: A twist on emulation... > From: "Graham Toal" > Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 14:18:26 -0500 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >I took a pdp15 compiler and a pdp15 emulator this weekend and >hacked them together in a way such that the compiler outputs >what looks like a windows executable that you can simply run >like a normal DOS (x86 DOS, not the other one) command-line >program. The emulator is embedded in the .EXE along with the >pdp15 code. > >It lets you have the experience of writing in an early 1970's >language for the PDP15 much as if you'd been on the machine >itself, but without the hassle of managing an emulator. > >The language is an early version of Imp, which predates the >more common Imp77 or Imp80 versions; in fact it is actually >much closer to the original Atlas Autocode than it is to the >final versions of Imp. A significant feature of the language is >that it allows embedded PDP15 assembly language. > >Unfortunately I don't have a document describing the early language, >though I do have a few example programs you could look at to >pick it up from. > >The windows-ported binary of the compiler is here: > > http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/windows_port/ > >see the readme.txt for manual installation instructions. > >I'll put up the source of the system and some working example imp15 >source files in a day or two. > >meanwhile related files are: > >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/EMULATOR.txt >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/CompilerOutput.htm > >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/hdcomp-emul.i15.html >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/takeon.i15.html >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/gram.txt > >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp-pdp15/IMP15SYS.TXT > >a trivial hello world program looks like this: > >%begin > %print %text 'Welcome to the 1970''s!' >%end %of %programme > >save it as hello.i15 and then execute these commands: > >imp15 hello >link15 hello >hello > >Here are some more example programs; they're not likely to compile >or run, they're just for looking at to learn the language: > >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/hal/7502/hal7502.i15 >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/hal/interdata/hal70.i15 >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/pdp915/edit15.txt >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/pdp915/decode.txt > >The original pdp15 operating system (not needed for this compiler) >is here: >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/pdp915/ > >The operating system was basically a run-time environment for >the Imp compiler. > >Graham From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon May 14 17:38:02 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:38:02 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F0D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Thanks Pete Heres my list of KJD11 variations: Module Type Speed RAM ROM LTC SLU ------ ---- ----- --- --- --- --- M8192 KDJ11-AA 15 0 0 No 0 KDJ11-AB 18 0 0 No 0 M8190 KDJ11-BB 15 0 Y Yes 2 KDJ11-BF 18 0 Y Yes 2 M7554 KDJ11-D 15 1.5 Y Yes 2 M8981 KDJ11-EA 15 2 Y Yes 1 KDJ11-EB 18 4 Y Yes 8 KDJ11-SD Anybody want to amend and add the module for the memory? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: 14 May 2007 21:21 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The Last of The Line On 14/05/2007 09:01, Rod Smallwood wrote: > All of your points are well made. One is very important the KDJ11-EB > has its memory on the CPU board. Are you saying some models of the > KDJ11 do not have their memory on the CPU board? Is it a case of > unpopulated sockets and add memory or is it no sockets and no memory? KDJ11-E (M8981) is a quad-height board used in 11/93 and 11/94, running at 18MHz, with up to 4MB of RAM on board. It also has a floating point processor, boot ROMs, line time clock, and 8(?) serial ports. KDJ11-D (M7554) is a quad-height board used in 11/53, usually running at 15MHz, with either 512KB or 1.5MB of RAM, boot ROMs, LTC, and 2 SLUs. It's one of the slowest KDJ11s; the 11/53 was meant as a low-cost system. The same board, but with different ROMs and different handles (KDJ11-S), was used in some tabletop systems. KDJ11-B (M8190) is a quad-height board with no RAM (and no sockets for it), but with boot ROMs, LTC, and 2 SLUs. It was available as 15MHz for the 11/73, and 18MHz for the 11/83 and 11/84. 18MHz versions normally included the FPJ11 floating point processor chip; 15MHz usually merely had the socket; some early 15MHz versions won't accept an FPJ11 chip. These boards will work with PMI memory as well as with ordinary QBus memory. KDJ11-A (M8192) is a dual-height board clocked at 15MHz, with no RAM, boot ROMs, LTC, SLUs, or other embellishments. In other words, it's just a CPU. Used in a few 11/73S systems, as an OEM board, and for 11/23 upgrades. Early revisions won't accept an FPJ11 chip. See Micronotes 25, 30, and 39. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Mon May 14 18:50:52 2007 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:50:52 +0000 Subject: Problem reading CP/M floppy on a PC Message-ID: Hi, I have a Transam Tuscan system and recently received a set of boot disks for it. I am trying to back these up to a PC, but when reading the disks with Anadisk or Imagedisk I get 'no data' errors on tracks 3 and higher. The errors get worse from tracks 3 to 15 then nothing can be read. I have taken the 5.25" drive out of the Tuscan and put it in the PC, and the contoller passes the TESTFDC tests for single density and double density. The odd thing about these floppies is that Anadisk reports them as 512 byte / sector and 10 sectors per track. The norm for '360K' floppies is 9 sectors / track. The outer sector (track 0) can be read fine with Anadisk, and I can read the CP/M welcome message. I was hoping someone could advise on what tricks or techniques I could use? Would it help for example to slow the drive down below 300rpm? I assume that with 9 sectors / track there is more time for the FDC to recgnise the start of each track. I think the Tuscan FDC uses a WD1771 controller, is that better than the NEC765 type-controller and able to pack more data in? I read on http://www.s100-manuals.com/Disk-drives.htm that Kaypro also uses 10 sectors of 512 bytes. Another thought is to try different PCs, perhaps formating, writing and reading 10 x 512 byte sectors is another test that could be added to Dave's TESTFDC program to help find a suitable machine :-) Lastly (before anyone asks) yes the floppies are soft sectored. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk/ From adamg at pobox.com Mon May 14 22:36:35 2007 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:36:35 -0400 Subject: Manuals being scanned Message-ID: <20070515033635.GA38119@silme.pair.com> Since no one seems to have said this yet: Thanks for making an effort to preserve these documents. -- Adam From bear at typewritten.org Tue May 15 02:11:31 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 00:11:31 -0700 Subject: Sun 2/120 chassis In-Reply-To: <200705142331.l4ENVrpq055815@lots.reanimators.org> References: <4F42E5F1-42F7-434E-88DF-820C39A6A02D@TYPEWRITTEN.ORG> <200705142331.l4ENVrpq055815@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <290CC392-5269-4338-85AD-AB1361E359AD@typewritten.org> On May 14, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Frank McConnell wrote: > There's a top shelf in the cabinet. There's then a mounting bracket. > You screw the tape drive and one or two full-height 5.25" hard disks > to that bracket, then slide the bracket in from the side and screw it > to the shelf. > > Are you missing the bracket? I have what I assume is the bracket (at least for the QIC-11 drive; it gets the drive to where the cutout in the front panel is) but there are no obvious holes in the top shelf to fasten it to. I'm kind of baffled that there would be a different chassis for a diskless workstation or that they expected the addition of mounting holes to be an FCO... Is there supposed to be ANOTHER bracket, which I would then definitely be missing? ok bear From james at attfield.co.uk Tue May 15 02:44:06 2007 From: james at attfield.co.uk (Jim Attfield) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:44:06 +0100 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <200705150723.l4F7MOFd042141@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: Jim Leonard > > > Don't confuse interface speed vs. actual media speed. > > True, but I didn't have a basis for comparison. I'm hearing that 4MB/s > is indeed slightly above par, so I guess I should be happy . I have several 35/70GB DLT drives on various systems and they all do between 240MB/minute to 400MB/minute depending on the speed of the disk systems (and to some extent CPU's) they are backing up so yours certainly seems in the ball park. You can't go by interface (10MB/s) or bus (132MB/S) speed, it's purely down to the highest rate the drive can stream at and making sure you can feed it data fast enough to keep it in 'streaming' mode. Jim From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 15 02:43:03 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:43:03 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F0D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F0D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46496487.5030505@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/05/2007 23:38, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Thanks Pete > > Heres my list of KJD11 variations: > > Module Type Speed RAM ROM LTC SLU > ------ ---- ----- --- --- --- --- > M8192 KDJ11-AA 15 0 0 No 0 > KDJ11-AB 18 0 0 No 0 > M8190 KDJ11-BB 15 0 Y Yes 2 > KDJ11-BF 18 0 Y Yes 2 > M7554 KDJ11-D 15 1.5 Y Yes 2 > M8981 KDJ11-EA 15 2 Y Yes 1 > KDJ11-EB 18 4 Y Yes 8 > KDJ11-SD I don't remember there ever being an 18MHz KDJ11-A. The variants of the KDJ11-A differ in CPU and ASIC revision, which determines whether an FPJ11 works in them. -AA (M8192) doesn't work with FPJ11, -AB (M8192-YB) does but was supplied without one fitted, and -AC (M8192-YC) was factory-fitted wioth one. The suffixes can be confusing, not least because on other microPDP-11 machines (KDF11-B) the -Bx suffix relates to the ROM set not the board design. The -BB is the 15MHz board without FPU (as delivered by the factory) but capable of using one; it's an M8190-AB. The -BC is the same board but different ASICs and/or CPU and won't work with an FPU (M8190 with no suffix). The -BF and -BE are the 18MHz board, all of which should work with an FPU, and as supplied in 11/83s all had one fitted -- these are all M8190-AE. I suspect -BF denotes the one with the later version 7.0 (instead of 6.0) ROMS, but I'm less sure about that. The suffixes on the handle tell you about the board revision. It's true that MicroPDP-11/73s used the 15MHz -BB board and had the 6.0 ROM set (and were supplied with QBus memory), and the original MicroPDP-11/83s ran at 18MHz (and were supplied with PMI memory) but these sometimes got upgraded over time, so looking at the suffix on the handle won't necessarily tell you what ROMs are in them, or whether it has an FPJ11, and the ROMs won't tell you the speed. Also, there were two versions of the KDJ11-D, with 0.5MB and 1.5MB of memory, and matching variants of the KDJ11-S. I'm sure the different version of the KDJ11-E all had the same number of SLUs. Only one can be configured to be the console port, of course -- perhaps that's why you've seen one described as "one console port" rather than "8 SLUs". > Anybody want to amend and add the module for the memory? Look in the Field Guide, which Megan Gentry maintains. However, I have a one-page list on paper somewhere which summaries the board size, capacity, number of address bits, refresh capability, parity capability, and PMI capability of most QBus memory. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From emu at e-bbes.com Tue May 15 03:00:13 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 10:00:13 +0200 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> References: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4649688D.4070003@e-bbes.com> Just one remark to this. If you're using a "*nix" like system, you probably have "buffer" installed on your system. (or just find it). It is nothing spectacular, but just a buffer a few megabytes which helps to buffer the seeks of your diskdrives. So (from memory) you have : tar cvf BACKUP | buffer -16m > /dev/st0 would make a 16 mbytes buffer. It helped me a lot on earlier unix systems, the newer versions buffer enough already in the OS. But it still helps, when you have a filesystem with a lot of small files (CVS !) cheers P.S. With that, I could even manage it to backup on a remote tape drive without to many rewinds From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 03:30:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 04:30:46 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned In-Reply-To: <20070514222659.GA6981@mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> References: <1DA1986C-D53A-4EA2-B1F1-64EE9E0539E0@neurotica.com> <200705141410.47583.rtellason@verizon.net> <20070514222659.GA6981@mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <351A6A6B-24C9-4273-A68E-E0EC9CEA99F6@neurotica.com> On May 14, 2007, at 6:26 PM, Brian Foley wrote: >> I use PDFLab under MacOS X. I've not yet found anything portable >> that does the job...that's not to say that it doesn't exist, just >> that I haven't found it. > > There's a fairly nice command-line based set of Java tools in > multivalent that allows you to process PDFs in various different ways. > I use it mostly to compress and decompress PDFs, but it also allows > you > to extract text, reorder pages, split and merge documents and so on. > > About the only thing I'd like it to do that it doesn't is to extract > image resources from a PDF. > > It can be found at > http://multivalent.sourceforge.net/ Ahhhh, that will be VERY useful...Thanks for the pointer! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Tue May 15 07:11:38 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:11:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... Message-ID: The Rainbow does operate at standard TV rates, i beleive. The monochrome signal is actually a straight composite signal, meaning, if you build an adapter, you can connect any old composite monitor to it. I used a Commodore 1084 (I think that's the model...) for a while. One of the oddest features was that you could switch to European rates at any time through the bios. Just press F3 while the system was on to get to the Set-Up screen. One of the flags was 'Frequency' and it presented two options: 50Hz and 60Hz. Just flip the flag depending on your continent, and you're all done. The high-res graphics mode was 800x240, which does seem a bit wide. Maybe the engineers predicted the coming of widescreen monitors... ;) Low-res graphics mode was a more normal ratio at 384x240. The Rainbow in the auction looks nice, but there is no color monitor in the pictures. Is the seller sure that he has a color monitor? jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From tandj812 at verizon.net Tue May 15 02:39:08 2007 From: tandj812 at verizon.net (JOHN FLUKE) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 07:39:08 -0000 Subject: Fairchild MB8116E == 4116 ? Message-ID: <000801c796a2$c0dbb100$4101a8c0@recorder> I have a bunch (more than 80) of Both MB8116E and ITT 4116 My email address is tandj812 at verizon.net From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 15 03:15:51 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 09:15:51 +0100 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <001701c7967e$dff04660$6501a8c0@evan> References: <001701c7967e$dff04660$6501a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <1179216951.29709.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 19:23 -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: > What's so great about that? It's just a bland and unoriginal personal > web site. Let's see yours, then. It's a better website than mine... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 15 04:57:36 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 10:57:36 +0100 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1179223056.29709.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 00:49 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Oi one option worse then the other LOL. I'm not even > > aware of what freqs the 'bow's screens operate at, nor > > the Amigas. I guess they've got to be close though ;) > > THe 'Bow is pretty much standard TV rates. I can't remember if it only > does the US rates (15.570kHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) or whether it > also does the European rates (15.625kHz horizontal, 50Hz vertical). The > hardware should be capable of both, BTW. > > Given that the Amiga, at least in Europe, had applications in amateur > video productions, I assume its output is at standard TV rates too. ... and also professional video. For a while it was standard kit in nearly every edit suite, for captioning. All the little 3D sequences in the TV programme "The Chart Show" in the 90s were done on Amigas. Babylon 5 and Seaquest DSV used the Amiga-powered Video Toaster extensively. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 15 06:54:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 07:54:04 -0400 Subject: Giant LED Displays - Re: Motion video on an IBM PC/XT - Methodology Message-ID: <0JI200EYUZP5LUI5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Giant LED Displays - Re: Motion video on an IBM PC/XT - Methodology > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:53:37 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 07:40 PM 5/13/2007, you wrote: >>About 3 years ago I announced to the list a little something I'd done with >>an IBM PC/XT with CGA that was unconventional for the platform >>(full-motion video using stock hardware). I recently gave a talk at a >>hacker convention on the complete methodology of how I did it, and the >>video of that talk is now available here: >> >>http://www.archive.org/details/8088CorruptionExplained > >This whole discussion has reminded me of an unfinished project of mine, a >192x99, 19,008 pixel LED display. I have not manufactured the driver >circuits, but they have been designed. > >The display is organized/refreshed as 11x1728. 8x11 characters look very >good to me, so I designed it to handle 24 wide by 9 high characters. > >Here are pictures of it: >Front: http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-LED_Display_Front_2718.jpg >Back: http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-LED_Display_Back_2716.jpg >Weight of all the >legs: http://www.stockly.com/images2/060129-Weight_of_39584_Legs_2696.jpg > >As you can see from the pictures it is as big as a couch. : ) > >I built it in the spirit of blinkin lights for my Altair. 19008 LEDs is >2376 bytes, 71280 bytes a second at 30 frames. The altair should be able >to handle this...??? Any ideas? Thats faster than SD 8" FDC data rate! Thats pushing an 8080 hard. >I would really love if it could handle a shade or two of grey. : ) I'm >considering now building a driver out of an FPGA. It would be able to >handle a fast refresh rate and frame rate in order to get grey scales. I >was thinking 4 shades would be enough. The FPGA might even be able to act >as the dual port SRAM for the bitmap display? Any ideas how I should >proceed? : ) You want the CPU doing as little as possible. If at all possible the display is refreshed by DMA from local or other memory and the CPU is there to update/alter the display. >You can find my thread on this on USENET called "Wall of RAM". I have >copied it here: >http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21 > >Grant ;) if I were to do something on that grand a scale I'd consider a LED billboard of VDM-1 (160x512) (roughly 30"x100"). Of course it would have to use green leds. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 15 08:24:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 09:24:52 -0400 Subject: Fairchild MB8116E == 4116 ? In-Reply-To: <000801c796a2$c0dbb100$4101a8c0@recorder> References: <000801c796a2$c0dbb100$4101a8c0@recorder> Message-ID: On 4/25/07, JOHN FLUKE wrote: > I have a bunch (more than 80) of Both MB8116E and ITT 4116 I remember seeing 8116s in some Commodore PETs. AFAIK, they are equivalent to 8116s, but it's still worth finding an old Fairchild databook and looking them up to be certain. No, I don't need any. -ethan From gtoal at gtoal.com Tue May 15 08:37:09 2007 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:37:09 -0500 Subject: A twist on emulation... Message-ID: > From: Allison > The links do not works from here. I get an operation timed out > error. > Allison It's my home site on a RoadRunner cable connection, and the cable modem locks up if there is excess traffic. Doesn't happen often, but judging by my web logs I was being overloaded by coincidental spidering from 4 different search engines at once. It's back online now. Had to wait until I got home to reset the cable device. Some time this summer, history.dcs.ed.ac.uk should be relocated to a properly hosted machine in Edinburgh. Oh yes - that reminds me - if there are any Edinburgh people here, we're organising a reunion in late June. Mail me for info. Graham From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 15 08:38:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 09:38:00 -0400 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: <1179223056.29709.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <1179223056.29709.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: On 5/15/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > All the little 3D sequences in the TV programme "The Chart Show" in the > 90s were done on Amigas. I think the titles for "Three Men and a Baby" were done on an Amiga. > Babylon 5 and Seaquest DSV used the > Amiga-powered Video Toaster extensively. Babylon 5 used hopped-up Amiga 2000s w/68040s and Toasters and Lightwave for their first season, but I think they switched the rendering platform to Lightwave on Pentium-class machines for the remainder of the show. Don't know if they continued to use Toasters for laying down the rendered images to tape or not. It was still cool to see Amiga output in a serious commercial venue, though. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 15 08:45:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 09:45:37 -0400 Subject: Giant LED Displays - Re: Motion video on an IBM PC/XT - Methodology In-Reply-To: <0JI200EYUZP5LUI5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JI200EYUZP5LUI5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 5/15/07, Allison wrote: > ;) if I were to do something on that grand a scale I'd consider a LED > billboard of VDM-1 (160x512) (roughly 30"x100"). Of course it would > have to use green leds. Not amber? ;-) (my first "real" terminal was an amber-tube VT220 - still have it, still works. Presently attached to a PDP-8/L). -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 15 09:09:41 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 07:09:41 -0700 Subject: Problem reading CP/M floppy on a PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "John S" > >Hi, > >I have a Transam Tuscan system and recently received a set of boot disks >for it. I am trying to back these up to a PC, but when reading the disks >with Anadisk or Imagedisk I get 'no data' errors on tracks 3 and higher. >The errors get worse from tracks 3 to 15 then nothing can be read. I have >taken the 5.25" drive out of the Tuscan and put it in the PC, and the >contoller passes the TESTFDC tests for single density and double density. > >The odd thing about these floppies is that Anadisk reports them as 512 byte >/ sector and 10 sectors per track. The norm for '360K' floppies is 9 >sectors / track. The outer sector (track 0) can be read fine with Anadisk, >and I can read the CP/M welcome message. > >I was hoping someone could advise on what tricks or techniques I could use? >Would it help for example to slow the drive down below 300rpm? > >I assume that with 9 sectors / track there is more time for the FDC to >recgnise the start of each track. I think the Tuscan FDC uses a WD1771 >controller, is that better than the NEC765 type-controller and able to pack >more data in? I read on http://www.s100-manuals.com/Disk-drives.htm that >Kaypro also uses 10 sectors of 512 bytes. > >Another thought is to try different PCs, perhaps formating, writing and >reading 10 x 512 byte sectors is another test that could be added to >Dave's TESTFDC program to help find a suitable machine :-) > >Lastly (before anyone asks) yes the floppies are soft sectored. Hi John It sounds like the disk has tracking errors. Either the drive you are using is not stepping correctly or the drive it was written on was not stepping correctly. Things to check in general: Make sure there is no old grease on the guide rails for the head mech. If belt driven, make sure the surfaces of the pullies are smooth and clean. Make sure the head(s) are clean. If a single head, make sure the pad is clean and flat. Make sure that the disk turns smoothly when in the drive and that if belt driven, the belt isn't slipping. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You?ll love Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue May 15 10:08:53 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:08:53 -0700 Subject: Sun 2/120 chassis In-Reply-To: <4F42E5F1-42F7-434E-88DF-820C39A6A02D@TYPEWRITTEN.ORG> References: <4F42E5F1-42F7-434E-88DF-820C39A6A02D@TYPEWRITTEN.ORG> Message-ID: <200705150808.54050.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 14 May 2007 15:28, r.stricklin wrote: > Howdy, guys. > > I'm working on restoring a Sun 2/120. My particular machine appears > to have been a diskless workstation (no storage controllers). I think > I have enough spares to give it a local disk and QIC-11 drive, but > there is no obvious way to mount a drive of any type in the upper > part of the chassis. There's a cutout on the front panel, so I know > you were at least supposed to be able to put a tape drive up there. > > Can somebody draw me a picture of how things are supposed to look > with drives in the cabinet? > > I guess if worse came to worst I could attach one of the 511 > shoeboxes, but I'd need a panel kit for my multibus SCSI controller. > > Also: > > I guess this is a long shot, but I would also like to find a Sun-2 > keyboard and mouse for this machine. I'll pay some money for it, if > somebody has one they would be willing to part with. You might also want to post this to the "Suns at Home" list: suns-at-home at net-kitchen.com Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue May 15 11:01:37 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:01:37 -0400 Subject: Color Macintosh boot floppy? Message-ID: <8CB25D1B-BBC8-42D8-806F-A0FAF6358D16@xlisper.com> Can anyone help me with creating a boot floppy for a Color Macintosh? I have a machine whose hard disk died and I'm trying to replace it but I don't have a boot floppy containing DiskTools to format the new (Apple) hard drive. I *do* have an install CD for System 7.5 but it doesn't seem to want to boot on the Color Classic even if I hold "C" down when I start up the Mac. I'd be happy to pay for shipping and something extra for the effort involved in making the DiskTools boot disk. By the way, I've already tried downloading the DiskTools 7.5 and 8.5 images that are available on the net. Unfortunately, they won't boot on the Color Classic. I get a message saying that a system resource is missing. I'm assuming that they don't have the right enabler for the Color Classic. Thanks! David From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 15 11:23:12 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:23:12 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F0D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F0D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4649DE70.2010106@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/05/2007 23:38, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Anybody want to amend and add the module for the memory? I found the page I referred to in my earlier message, and the (retyped -- so please let me know if there are typos) list is now on my website. http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_memory It doesn't include multi-function boards (the MXV11-A and MXV11-B) or ROM boards (MRV11-A/B/C/D, some of which have a little RAM on them). It also doesn't have columns to specify whether the boards work in Qbus/Qbus backplanes or Q/CD backplanes without releasing magic smoke, whether they have provision to use battery power, whether they have options to disable the parity CSR, or support block-mode transfers. I'd expect users to get the nitty-gritty from the relevant user guides or handbooks. As always, additions and corrections are welcome. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 15 11:45:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 09:45:52 -0700 Subject: Problem reading CP/M floppy on a PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46498150.16874.1A44A4AE@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2007 at 23:50, John S wrote: > The odd thing about these floppies is that Anadisk reports them as 512 > byte / sector and 10 sectors per track. The norm for '360K' floppies is 9 > sectors / track. The outer sector (track 0) can be read fine with Anadisk, > and I can read the CP/M welcome message. I hadn't realized that there was a norm for CP/M floppies. You know, the "recommended" 512-byte sector "packing" in the uPD765 literature is 8 sectors--and indeed, early PC-DOS used just that. It's entirely possible to fit 10x512 sectors per track using a 765- type controller, though it's much easier if the IAM is left off and the space gained used to expand the inter-sector gaps (you can do this with a uPD 2765-type controller or any of the WD 17xx/27xx controllers. > I think the Tuscan FDC uses a WD1771 controller... Nope, the 1771 is restricted to FM only. Maybe a 179x or 1770/1772/1773 though. It's entirely possible that the drive used to create the diskettes was somewhat out of alignment. You may have to "unalign" a drive to successfully read these. This is more common than you might think. You didn't mention if you were using a 48tpi ("360K") drive to read these or trying to get by on a 96tpi ("720K" or "1.2MB) drive. The former will usually produce better results. If the first sector on the track is consistently missing (not always the lowest-numbered; some systems skew the tracks for better performance), you might be able to recover it by slowing the drive a bit to allow the first sector IDAM to move outside of the 765 "blind spot" at the beginning of a track (although the 765 formats a track with an IAM at the start, it never reads it). Clean heads, as Dwight's mentioned, also count for a lot. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 15 11:46:02 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:46:02 -0500 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: References: <1179223056.29709.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070515112929.06a73e30@mail> At 08:38 AM 5/15/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Babylon 5 used hopped-up Amiga 2000s w/68040s and Toasters and >Lightwave for their first season, but I think they switched the >rendering platform to Lightwave on Pentium-class machines for the >remainder of the show. Don't know if they continued to use Toasters >for laying down the rendered images to tape or not. As I recall, they all used non-video / all-digital methods of laying down the rendered frames. I remember writing an Abekas utility at one point for Newtek for someone at the Post Group, I think it read and wrote Abekas-format data to an Exabyte 8500. Back then there were video recorders that could cleanly lay down single frames of video to tape. They may also have simply 'tar'd rendered frames to Exabytes and delivered them to a post-production service, who rendered them to high-quality video output. - John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 15 12:07:08 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:07:08 +0100 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15/5/07 00:49, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> Oi one option worse then the other LOL. I'm not even >> aware of what freqs the 'bow's screens operate at, nor >> the Amigas. I guess they've got to be close though ;) > > THe 'Bow is pretty much standard TV rates. I can't remember if it only > does the US rates (15.570kHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) or whether it > also does the European rates (15.625kHz horizontal, 50Hz vertical). The > hardware should be capable of both, BTW. > > Given that the Amiga, at least in Europe, had applications in amateur > video productions, I assume its output is at standard TV rates too. Certainly is, I just had to make up a D23 to flying R/G/B/Sync cables and the VR241 makes a great Amiga monitor. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From fu3.org at gmail.com Tue May 15 12:20:13 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 19:20:13 +0200 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <4b7d63a40705141034i7fd41aa2h348335f05587e089@mail.gmail.com> References: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> <4b7d63a40705141034i7fd41aa2h348335f05587e089@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0705151020k1adbb4f8qa5f80b21c0d665b7@mail.gmail.com> Yes, these were great! :) -I'll have to specify that my original sitepost wasn't for a site of mine; --I just felt that I'd browsed around in "obscureland" somewhat, (i.e. far from google's top search results, etc., "way down there,") and so it seemed pretty interesting.. ;) Anyway; very nice sites, Blake. 2007/5/14, Blake Patterson : > Nice link. As a collector, I enjoy perusing others piles as well. :-) > > Let me offer these links of what I've gathered over the years: > > http://www.blakespot.com/list/ > http://pix.blakespot.com/view/computers/ > http://www.bytecellar.com/qtvr.html > > I hope someone enjoys. > > > > > > bp > > On 5/14/07, from at fu3.org wrote: > > - http://www.switchtech.us/PCmuseum.html > > > > This is "SWITCHTECH'S VIRTUAL PC MUSEUM," which is interesting unless > > it's been posted here hundreds of times before.. ;) > > > > > -- > Heisenberg may have slept here. > From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 15 12:35:15 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 15 May 2007 10:35:15 -0700 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0705151020k1adbb4f8qa5f80b21c0d665b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> <4b7d63a40705141034i7fd41aa2h348335f05587e089@mail.gmail.com> <310f50ab0705151020k1adbb4f8qa5f80b21c0d665b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179250515.4649ef531ca7d@secure.zipcon.net> although I don't remember the Z-80 being a clone of the 8085 CPU like the author of that site claims. (or has my memory gone faulty?) From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue May 15 13:26:03 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:26:03 -0500 Subject: Problem reading CP/M floppy on a PC In-Reply-To: <46498150.16874.1A44A4AE@cclist.sydex.com> References: Message-ID: <200705151728.l4FHS89s012583@hosting.monisys.ca> > It's entirely possible that the drive used to create the diskettes > was somewhat out of alignment. You may have to "unalign" a drive to > successfully read these. This is more common than you might think. Btw the Align/Test function of ImageDisk is very useful for this - it you can seek to a cylinder and get an audible beep which increases with the number of sectors IDs found match the cylinder - very handy when you need to align a drive to a disk (which I've had to do a number of times). > If the first sector on the track is consistently missing (not always > the lowest-numbered; some systems skew the tracks for better > performance), you might be able to recover it by slowing the drive a > bit to allow the first sector IDAM to move outside of the 765 "blind > spot" at the beginning of a track (although the 765 formats a track > with an IAM at the start, it never reads it). I've had to do this for a number of systems, Cromemco being the most notable ... I find slowing the drive by about 10rpm makes a huge difference on some disks (One of the reasons I like TEAC drives - very easy to set the speed). And yes - 10x512 is quite common, and can be accomodated with a 765. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 15 12:30:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:30:03 -0600 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? Message-ID: This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 15 12:39:49 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 15 May 2007 10:39:49 -0700 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1179250789.4649f065d3a6f@secure.zipcon.net> anyone else on here ever do the potentiometer trick with a VR-241? hook up a rainbow (without graphics board) to a VR-241 and then hook potentiometers to the spare RGB connectors so you could have a monochrome monitor of any color one wanted? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 15 12:51:32 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:51:32 -0400 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/15/07, Richard wrote: > This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to > ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. > > The colors remind me of 1970s Data General gear, but that's not my area of expertise. -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 15 12:58:23 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:58:23 -0500 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4649F4BF.1000106@mdrconsult.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 15/5/07 00:49, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >>> Oi one option worse then the other LOL. I'm not even >>> aware of what freqs the 'bow's screens operate at, nor >>> the Amigas. I guess they've got to be close though ;) >> THe 'Bow is pretty much standard TV rates. I can't remember if it only >> does the US rates (15.570kHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) or whether it >> also does the European rates (15.625kHz horizontal, 50Hz vertical). The >> hardware should be capable of both, BTW. >> >> Given that the Amiga, at least in Europe, had applications in amateur >> video productions, I assume its output is at standard TV rates too. > > Certainly is, I just had to make up a D23 to flying R/G/B/Sync cables and > the VR241 makes a great Amiga monitor. Ooooh, ooooh, oooh! Pinouts, please? Doc From fmc at reanimators.org Tue May 15 13:00:34 2007 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:00:34 -0700 Subject: Sun 2/120 chassis In-Reply-To: <290CC392-5269-4338-85AD-AB1361E359AD@typewritten.org> (r. stricklin's message of "Tue\, 15 May 2007 00\:11\:31 -0700") References: <4F42E5F1-42F7-434E-88DF-820C39A6A02D@TYPEWRITTEN.ORG> <200705142331.l4ENVrpq055815@lots.reanimators.org> <290CC392-5269-4338-85AD-AB1361E359AD@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <200705151800.l4FI0YqI077318@lots.reanimators.org> r.stricklin wrote: > I have what I assume is the bracket (at least for the QIC-11 drive; it > gets the drive to where the cutout in the front panel is) but there > are no obvious holes in the top shelf to fasten it to. I'm kind of > baffled that there would be a different chassis for a diskless > workstation or that they expected the addition of mounting holes to > be an FCO... > > Is there supposed to be ANOTHER bracket, which I would then definitely > be missing? I'm going from memory, haven't had time yet to pull the 2/120 out and take pictures.... MT02? here ------------------- QIC disk | disk tape drive here | here here ======================================= This sits on (and I think is screwed to) the top shelf inside the cabinet. I'm thinking the screws are along the edge of the shelf so you can get at them easily having taken the side panel off. The disks in mine are 5.25" full-height 85MB MFM units, there's an ACB4000 mounted elsewhere in the case for them. You don't get to use actual SCSI disks until SunOS 4.0, remember. I can't remember if that board on top is an MT02 or SC4000, just that it's for the tape drive. -Frank McConnell From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 15 13:07:03 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:07:03 -0500 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4649F6C7.4010402@oldskool.org> Jim Attfield wrote: >> From: Jim Leonard >> >>> Don't confuse interface speed vs. actual media speed. >> True, but I didn't have a basis for comparison. I'm hearing that 4MB/s >> is indeed slightly above par, so I guess I should be happy . > > I have several 35/70GB DLT drives on various systems and they all do between > 240MB/minute to 400MB/minute depending on the speed of the disk systems (and > to some extent CPU's) they are backing up so yours certainly seems in the > ball park. You can't go by interface (10MB/s) or bus (132MB/S) speed, it's > purely down to the highest rate the drive can stream at and making sure you > can feed it data fast enough to keep it in 'streaming' mode. On the system I had it hooked up to (a 933MHz Linux box with hardware RAID) keeping the drives fed was no problem. Anyway, I'm happy to see that, although seeming to need a cleaning tape every 4 loads or so, they function as expected :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue May 15 13:06:37 2007 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:06:37 -0600 Subject: Anyone know the MTI "THORN" board? Message-ID: <4649F6AD.9030301@rogerwilco.org> The recent discussion on tape backup devices has been timely, to say the least. I just picked up an Exabyte 8505XL 8mm tape drive, hoping to scan a ziplock bag-full of 8mm tapes that were included in a pickup of several Qbus PDP-11s and uVAXen last year. Included with the drive is a bare board that rumor has it came from a Micro Technology 'Liberator' tape backup subsystem. The interesting part about this board is that it is also rumored to be a DSSI-to-SCSI adapter. If true then I just maybe, sorta, kinda, might have a way to connect SCSI hard disks and/or a CD-ROM drive to my DECsystem 5400, which would be very, very nice. Unfortunately, I have no docs or technical information on this board, or the Liberator. Nothing turns up on bitsavers.org, Manx, the MTI website, or a general search of Google. I have tried to query MTI's support group via email, but no reply for a week, and I'm guessing that whoever received that email just took me for a crank collector of old comptuers! ;) While this board isn't really a 'classic' item by any means, nor even the DECsystem 5400, I'd still appreciate any information that anyone might have on this. It is marked "Model: THORN / T/A: 640036-007 REV M / S/A: 640036-001 REV K" and is built around a 68C000 @ 16Mhz, a couple NCR 53C700 SCSI drivers, 3 (I think) AMD 29c983 bus exchangers (whatever they are) and a bunch of logic, and two 68-pin SCA-like connectors on the SCSI side. You can see an image of the board on my mystery boards page at: http://www.rogerwilco.org/mystery_boards/#MTI_THORN If I can sort out the power connection, I might start experimenting a bit through what appears to be an on-board RS-232 port. The big question is: can I really use this to connect at least one SCSI hard disk or CDROM to my system? Thanks! Jared From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 15 13:07:44 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:07:44 -0500 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <4649688D.4070003@e-bbes.com> References: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> <4649688D.4070003@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4649F6F0.1020802@oldskool.org> e.stiebler wrote: > Just one remark to this. > If you're using a "*nix" like system, you probably have "buffer" Actually, I compiled "mbuffer" for the test so I could monitor the stream realtime. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 12:30:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:30:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fairchild MB8116E == 4116 ? In-Reply-To: <000801c796a2$c0dbb100$4101a8c0@recorder> from "JOHN FLUKE" at Apr 25, 7 07:01:06 pm Message-ID: > > I have a bunch (more than 80) of Both MB8116E and ITT 4116 I thought the MB8116 was a Fujitsu (not fairchild) part. THey are certainly both 16K*1 DRAMs. What I can't remember is if the 8116 is a 3-rail type (like the 4116) or a single rail (+5V only) part. I think it's the former (and the MB8118 is the single-rail one), but I wouldn't bet on it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 12:33:57 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:33:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: opinion needed In-Reply-To: <712906.34538.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 14, 7 03:59:19 pm Message-ID: > > a very nice man is offering to send me (2) 5170s > replete w/5175 monitors and the associated PGA > graphics boards. These were used in the "common area" The PGC board set seems to be quite rare. The last one I spotted on E-bay sold for over $100 (I know, becuase I was outbid....), it's one of the IBM oadapters I don't have yet and am seriously lookin for. > at MIT. As such, do these represent any particular > value? I have an AT already, but these are seemingly > more interesting having dwelt w/i the hallowed halls > of an illustrious technical university. That wouldn't bother me, but some people seem to like it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 12:44:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:44:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: <671704.90728.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 14, 7 05:05:16 pm Message-ID: > > apparently the Rainbow sports a measly 200 lines of > resolution. But one mode does 800 pels horizontally! > What's up with that? THe US TV standard specifies 525 lines, but rememebr that (a) that includes the 'lines' during the vertical blanking period and (b) it's interlaced. There are probably under 500 lines actually displayed in the image, and if you're using a computer which sends the same data after each vertical sync pulse -- thit it is ignores interlacing -- so that pairs of lines on the screen show identical data, then you're going to have something around 200 lines vertically. The horizontal resolution is limited only by the bandwidth of the circuitry and the amount of memory (essentially, the faster you send pixels to the monitor, the more appear on each line :-). So 800 dots horizontally is quite possible -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 13:05:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 19:05:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: from "Jeffrey Armstrong" at May 15, 7 12:11:38 pm Message-ID: > > The Rainbow does operate at standard TV rates, i beleive. The monochrome > signal is actually a straight composite signal, meaning, if you build an > adapter, you can connect any old composite monitor to it. I used a > Commodore 1084 (I think that's the model...) for a while. Indeed yes. And the VR201 can be used as a composite monochrome monitor with other TV-rate machines. Note, however, that 'composite video' does not imply TV rates. I am sure I've seen an HP composite monitoe that was soemthing like 22kHz horizontal. > > One of the oddest features was that you could switch to European rates at > any time through the bios. Just press F3 while the system was on to get > to the Set-Up screen. One of the flags was 'Frequency' and it presented > two options: 50Hz and 60Hz. Just flip the flag depending on your > continent, and you're all done. Ah, right. I knew the VT100 had that feature (and the Rainbow's text video system on the mainboard uses the same custom chips as a VT100), but I couldn't rememebr if they'd left the setup option in the 'bow -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue May 15 13:12:23 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 14:12:23 -0400 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4649F807.9000706@atarimuseum.com> Its a CDC dasher terminal, I've been looking for one for about 2 years now, you have a line on one? Curt Richard wrote: > This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to > ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. > > > > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue May 15 13:12:59 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 19:12:59 +0100 Subject: Color Macintosh boot floppy? In-Reply-To: <200705151702.l4FH10j9048768@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705151702.l4FH10j9048768@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > Can anyone help me with creating a boot floppy for a Color Macintosh? > I have a machine whose hard disk died and I'm trying to replace it > but I don't have a boot floppy containing DiskTools to format the new > (Apple) hard drive. I *do* have an install CD for System 7.5 but it > doesn't seem to want to boot on the Color Classic even if I hold "C" > down when I start up the Mac. I'd be happy to pay for shipping and > something extra for the effort involved in making the DiskTools boot > disk. I think at one time you had to hold down both the C and D keys to boot from CD on the old Macs. I don't have a floppy drive any more so cannot help there, even though I have just about all the Apple developer CDs ever issued, including floppy images of the various systems. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 15 13:14:59 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <186899.93210.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > This little photo is all I have to go on; someone > else is looking to > ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. > > > Not sure exactly what model - but I'm almost positive that's an old Data General Dasher terminal. The image has been flipped in some image processing program though, because the keypad is on the wrong side of the keyboard... -Ian From drb at msu.edu Tue May 15 13:15:05 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 14:15:05 -0400 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 15 May 2007 11:30:03 MDT.) References: Message-ID: <200705151815.l4FIF5fg015173@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to ID > this puppy and I said I would ask around. > Definitely looks like a DG product. De From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 15 13:13:06 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:13:06 -0500 Subject: Problem reading CP/M floppy on a PC In-Reply-To: <46498150.16874.1A44A4AE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46498150.16874.1A44A4AE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4649F832.7040005@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You didn't mention if you were using a 48tpi ("360K") drive to read > these or trying to get by on a 96tpi ("720K" or "1.2MB) drive. The > former will usually produce better results. Is that true? I almost had this discussion with Dave a couple of weeks ago (I was thinking it might be nice in the Imagedisk archive format recorded the double step flag setting in the file to provide a hint as to the drive type [1] used) My theory (which I don't think I ever got around to explaining to Dave) was that the head in a 40-cylinder drive would be better equipped to read a *marginal* signal from a 48TPI disk than an 80-cylinder double-stepped drive, purely due to the head width. Then I got to thinking that maybe that was utter crap :-) [1] I'm with Dave in that I think it would be wrong to restrict the recreation of an archive based upon the drive type that created it. However, I do tend to favour as much (automatic) recording of the parameters that were in use when data is created as possible. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue May 15 13:24:21 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:24:21 -0700 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <4649DE70.2010106@dunnington.plus.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F0D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <4649DE70.2010106@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90705151124k7cf08db3pc6450732a6fdffe1@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Anybody want to amend and add the module for the memory? > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_memory > > It also doesn't have columns to specify whether the boards work in > Qbus/Qbus backplanes or Q/CD backplanes without releasing magic smoke, > whether they have provision to use battery power, whether they have > options to disable the parity CSR, or support block-mode transfers. I'd > expect users to get the nitty-gritty from the relevant user guides or > handbooks. > > As always, additions and corrections are welcome. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-MSV1J-UG_001_May85.pdf MSV11-JB M8637-B 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 ONLY MSV11-JC M8637-C 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 ONLY MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 NOTE: Modules designated MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC may be used in the PDP-11/84 (UNIBUS) system only. Modules designated MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE may be used in both the PDP-11/84 and PDP-11/83 (Q-bus) systems. NOTE: MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC cannot perform Q-bus protocol. NOTE: Insertion of the MSV11-J in a Q-Q backplane my damage other components or the memory itself. The PMI bussing of the MSV11-J's CD connectors is not compatible with the +12V bussing on the Q-Q backplane. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 15 13:27:02 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 14:27:02 -0400 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <4649F6C7.4010402@oldskool.org> References: <4649F6C7.4010402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200705151427.02912.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 15 May 2007 14:07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Anyway, I'm happy to see that, although seeming to need a cleaning > tape every 4 loads or so, they function as expected :-) Hmm, that's not good. You probably either have a drive head that's going bad, or your tapes are starting to shed oxide. (Maybe just some tapes in particular - can you correlate when the "use cleaning tape" light goes on with any particular tape you're using?) DLT drives should last at least hundred of tape mounts before you need to clean them, assuming the tapes and drives are OK. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 15 13:29:05 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:29:05 -0700 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:30 AM -0600 5/15/07, Richard wrote: >This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to >ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. > > You might look into Data General terminals, for some reason that comes to mind. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue May 15 09:38:51 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 10:38:51 -0400 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 15, 2007, at 1:30 PM, Richard wrote: > This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to > ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. > > > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! Data General Dasher. (D200 I think) Nice terminal. I have two of them. Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 15 13:39:02 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Problem reading CP/M floppy on a PC In-Reply-To: <46498150.16874.1A44A4AE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46498150.16874.1A44A4AE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070515113356.K74967@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 May 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I hadn't realized that there was a norm for CP/M floppies. You know, > the "recommended" 512-byte sector "packing" in the uPD765 literature > is 8 sectors--and indeed, early PC-DOS used just that. I once asked Gary Kildall, "What is the standard format for 5.25" disks with double density?" He replied, " 8" single density." > If the first sector on the track is consistently missing (not always > the lowest-numbered; some systems skew the tracks for better > performance), you might be able to recover it by slowing the drive a > bit to allow the first sector IDAM to move outside of the 765 "blind > spot" at the beginning of a track (although the 765 formats a track > with an IAM at the start, it never reads it). For that same problem, I prefer "masking off" the index pulse. As was discussed earlier, that can be done in almost any way that permits interrupting that signal in the cable, or, with MOST drives (but NOT Teac!), by covering the index hole of the disk jacket. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue May 15 13:44:21 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 19:44:21 +0100 Subject: Harwell (was RE: A local computer history group for my area . . .) In-Reply-To: <200705142246.l4EMjutw034072@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705142246.l4EMjutw034072@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4F75FBC2-6FAA-4D33-ADAA-A3E61146A647@microspot.co.uk> > From: "Rod Smallwood" > > Well now let me see now I left School for College in 1964. My major > subjects were Industrial Electronics and Computing. > > We were taken to Harwell Research centre to see 'The' Computer. It was > an ICL 1900 series system. It took up three floors of a substantial > building. Input on the top floor (80col Cards and papertape). > Processing > and storage on the middle floor and output on the ground floor. Had to > be that way or the vibration from the line printers would have shaken > the building to pieces. > > I remember it was called Atlas and even had an operating system called > George III. So that's just over 40 years ago. In computer terms > certainly vintage if not veteran. Hi Rod, I think you have mixed up two different systems. The Ferranti Atlas (later ICT/ICL Atlas) was in a custom built building, I understand the CPU occupied two floors, and yes there was one at Harwell I've been told. I would expect that Harwell also had at least one ICT/ICL 1900, and that would indeed run the George 3 multi access system. I did my computer science degree at Queen Mary College (University of London) and we had a ICL 1905E, upgraded to a 1904S which ran George 2 batch processing and the Maximop multi access system. Later I used a 1906 (S?) at the Royal Aircraft Establishment and it used either George 3 or George 4, and I was relieved to find that all the Maximop commands worked on it. When I was in the sixth form we visited the computer centre at the NatWest tower - huge floors - IIRC, one floor had nothing but IBM CPUs (probably 370s - this was 1969) and other static electronics, one floor had all the storage - magnetic tapes, discs, and juke box like machines which picked up strips of magnetic tape. Another floor had the hard peripherals - card readers, line printers and a massive document reader with a curved 'retina' on top about 20 feet across where all the optical sensors were. Another floor had all the cheque reading machines, the operators were moaning about people stapling their cheques and the staples getting caught in the works. At that time a random 2% of the cheques were also processed manually for quality assurance purposes, and presumably to prevent fraud. That day was the first I heard of the fraction of a penny (or cent) scam, where all interest payments were rounded down and all the fractions of a penny credited to the programmer's account. The same day I visited the University of London's central computer centre (as opposed to the individual college's private ones). They had a CDC 7600 and one operator was using a terminal to send messages to chat up a girl operating one of the remote stations which fed the 7600 with punched card data and printed the results. A very early form of Internet chat room you might say. Roger Owner of a ICT 1301 built 1962 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 15 13:53:56 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 14:53:56 -0400 Subject: Looking for a dead machine Message-ID: <464A01C4.4040907@gmail.com> Hi. I'm looking for a dead IBM 5155 Portable Personal Computer. The only conditions are that the power supply, monitor and floppy drive need to work. None of the motherboard-based devices (including the CPU) need to work. A canvas carrying case would be a nice plus. Anyone have a line on one? Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 15 13:54:26 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:54:26 -0500 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464A01E2.4010906@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > THe US TV standard specifies 525 lines, but rememebr that (a) that > includes the 'lines' during the vertical blanking period and (b) it's > interlaced. There are probably under 500 lines actually displayed in the > image, and if you're using a computer which sends the same data after > each vertical sync pulse -- thit it is ignores interlacing -- so that > pairs of lines on the screen show identical data, then you're going to > have something around 200 lines vertically. That sounds about right. I think I could get about 270 lines on a UK (625-line) set by hooking a PC's (S)VGA output up to it and futzing around with display timings - so 200 lines on a 525-line set seems about right. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 15 14:04:37 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:04:37 -0700 Subject: Anyone know the MTI "THORN" board? In-Reply-To: <4649F6AD.9030301@rogerwilco.org> References: <4649F6AD.9030301@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: At 12:06 PM -0600 5/15/07, J Blaser wrote: >Included with the drive is a bare board that rumor has it came from >a Micro Technology 'Liberator' tape backup subsystem. The >interesting part about this board is that it is also rumored to be a >DSSI-to-SCSI adapter. If true then I just maybe, sorta, kinda, >might have a way to connect SCSI hard disks and/or a CD-ROM drive to >my DECsystem 5400, which would be very, very nice. You might look into "TD Systems" or "Viking" as the manufacturer as well. I was thinking it might be like their SCSI boards, a rebadged Viking, though with their name on the actual circuit board that seems unlikely. >The big question is: can I really use this to connect at least one >SCSI hard disk or CDROM to my system? It seems unlikely. You might get lucky, but my guess is that the firmware will specifically only support tape drives, and potentially only the drive it came with. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 15 13:56:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:56:20 -0500 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <4649688D.4070003@e-bbes.com> References: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> <4649688D.4070003@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <464A0254.5000803@yahoo.co.uk> e.stiebler wrote: > Just one remark to this. > If you're using a "*nix" like system, you probably have "buffer" > installed on your system. (or just find it). > It is nothing spectacular, but just a buffer a few megabytes which helps > to buffer the seeks of your diskdrives. So (from memory) you have : > > tar cvf BACKUP | buffer -16m > /dev/st0 isn't that exactly what tar's blocking factor* is supposed to do, only without the need for a separate utility? *I thought it was a standard feature of tar, not something that's only appeared since the GNU days. From pechter at gmail.com Tue May 15 14:06:53 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:06:53 -0400 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? In-Reply-To: <4649F807.9000706@atarimuseum.com> References: <4649F807.9000706@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: I think that's Data General (DG) not Control Data.Corp. (CDC) Bill.. On 5/15/07, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Its a CDC dasher terminal, I've been looking for one for about 2 years > now, you have a line on one? > > > Curt > > > Richard wrote: > > This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to > > ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. > > > > > > > > > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 15 13:59:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:59:24 -0500 Subject: CBM Plus/4 sluggish keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464A030C.4000905@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> It works, but some of the keys are a bit sluggish - are there any gotchas >> involved in dismantling the keyboard in order to give contacts a clean? (I >> just want to check I'm not going to be faced with tiny springs going every >> which way if I unscrew the backplate :-) > > If it's like every other CBM keyboard I've worked on, there are no > problems. You may have to desolder wires from any latching keys (Shift > Lock or whatever), but that's fairly obvious. Well, I took the one from the 'spares' machine apart as a test. Like you say, the shift-lock switch has to be desoldered. There are 8 circular pads to keep account of (F-keys and cursor keys) - all the other keys have the pads attached. The only other thing is that there's a tiny spring which grounds the keyboard's metal frame; it'd be easy to lose that. I've since taken the good machine's keyboard apart, cleaned, dried and reassembled it - it works like a charm now :) From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue May 15 14:09:29 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:09:29 -0400 Subject: Color Macintosh boot floppy? In-Reply-To: References: <200705151702.l4FH10j9048768@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On May 15, 2007, at 2:12 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: > I don't have a floppy drive any more so cannot help there, even > though I have just about all the Apple developer CDs ever issued, > including floppy images of the various systems. I have a PC program (diskimg.exe) that claims to be able to write .img files to floppy. Do you have a floppy image of a boot disk that will work with the Color Classic? Could you email it to me? Thanks, David From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 15 14:10:45 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 20:10:45 +0100 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: <4649F4BF.1000106@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 15/5/07 18:58, "Doc Shipley" wrote: >>> Given that the Amiga, at least in Europe, had applications in amateur >>> video productions, I assume its output is at standard TV rates too. >> >> Certainly is, I just had to make up a D23 to flying R/G/B/Sync cables and >> the VR241 makes a great Amiga monitor. > > Ooooh, ooooh, oooh! > > Pinouts, please? Certainly, once I find it! I think it's still at my northern location, though all of that stuff is coming here sooner rather than later...... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue May 15 14:24:54 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:24:54 -0700 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to > ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. > > Data General Dasher. It could be either a D100 or a D200. It looks to me that there is the model number on the terminal, bottom of the screen, but I can't read it. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 15 14:34:12 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:34:12 -0700 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <4649F6C7.4010402@oldskool.org> References: <4649F6C7.4010402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: At 1:07 PM -0500 5/15/07, Jim Leonard wrote: >Anyway, I'm happy to see that, although seeming to need a cleaning >tape every 4 loads or so, they function as expected :-) That's not normal, are you in a very dirty environment, or using tapes that are in bad condition? I've been told by one of their FE's that leaving a tape unloaded in the drive might be a good idea to help keep dirt out of an external drive. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue May 15 14:37:51 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:37:51 -0700 Subject: opinion needed In-Reply-To: <712906.34538.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <712906.34538.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > a very nice man is offering to send me (2) 5170s > replete w/5175 monitors and the associated PGA > graphics boards. These were used in the "common area" > at MIT. As such, do these represent any particular > value? I have an AT already, but these are seemingly The PGA (Professional Graphics Adapter) board set and matching Monitor is very rare. I would say worth keeping. There are hopefully spare MFM hard drives in the 5170s that are worth keeping, especially if they have the PGA drivers. This is before plug and play but then I have only had one PGA and it was at least 15 years ago. I bet the software is more common than the PGA hardware at this time, If they have the original keyboards you want to keep those too as they are getting expensive on ebay. As to the linage it wouldn't matter to me unless I was going to set one up as an exhibit, an idea I have been playing with. Then you would want both to have one as a backup. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue May 15 14:42:06 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:42:06 +0200 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? References: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9AA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yup, I have that one here! (Never made pictures of it). It is a D200/100 from Data General. - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Richard Verzonden: di 15-05-2007 19:30 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Anyone recognize this terminal? This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue May 15 14:43:29 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:43:29 -0400 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? In-Reply-To: <4649F807.9000706@atarimuseum.com> References: <4649F807.9000706@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <464A0D61.6030102@atarimuseum.com> Ooops, DG, not CDC, sorry, but it is definitely a Dasher terminal. Atari had quite a few of them installed in their Home Computer Division when they had a pair of DG MV8000's installed. CUrt Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Its a CDC dasher terminal, I've been looking for one for about 2 years > now, you have a line on one? > > > Curt > > > Richard wrote: >> This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to >> ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. >> >> >> >> > From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Tue May 15 14:43:56 2007 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:43:56 -0600 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? References: Message-ID: <016501c79729$615c7110$fb84b044@netgear> DG Dasher 100 or DG Dasher 200; 200 had upper- _and_ lower- case keyboard characters(!) as I recall. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this terminal? > At 11:30 AM -0600 5/15/07, Richard wrote: >>This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to >>ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. >> >> > > You might look into Data General terminals, for some reason that comes to > mind. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue May 15 14:49:09 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:49:09 -0700 Subject: interesting classic video game anniversary story Message-ID: This is an interesting read and some pics of the very first video games. http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3159462 Found the link on slashdot. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 15 14:52:57 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 20:52:57 +0100 Subject: Problem reading CP/M floppy on a PC In-Reply-To: <200705151728.l4FHS89s012583@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200705151728.l4FHS89s012583@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <464A0F99.5010302@philpem.me.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I've had to do this for a number of systems, Cromemco being the most > notable ... I find slowing the drive by about 10rpm makes a huge > difference on some disks (One of the reasons I like TEAC drives - > very easy to set the speed). That's nice to know - FWICT my modified YE Data drive is running at about 290RPM instead of 300 (based on the index pulse timing). Now I don't have to try and figure out how to speed it up by another 10RPM :) That said, the drive motor appears to be crystal-locked, so increasing the RPM might be a little difficult anyway. BTW Dave, thanks for the page on modifying 5.25" drives for 300RPM - the method you mentioned worked like a charm. I'd post the wire colours for the high/low speed switch, but the drive's downstairs. Basically, there's one line that's always at +5.0V, one that's always +12.0V, one that's on/off depending on the motor's state (on or off) and one that sits at around 4V. Ground the 4V line at the motor controller board (and disconnect said wire from the drive controller/head amp board first!) to get 300RPM. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 15 14:53:49 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <200705151427.02912.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <484579.66742.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 15 May 2007 14:07, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Anyway, I'm happy to see that, although seeming to > need a cleaning > > tape every 4 loads or so, they function as > expected :-) > > Hmm, that's not good. You probably either have a > drive head that's > going bad, or your tapes are starting to shed oxide. > (Maybe just some > tapes in particular - can you correlate when the > "use cleaning tape" > light goes on with any particular tape you're > using?) > > DLT drives should last at least hundred of tape > mounts before you need > to clean them, assuming the tapes and drives are OK. I replaced a drive here at work that did just the same thing - it requested a cleaning tape very frequently. This was a DLT7000. I swapped out the drive and hooked it up to my PC to troubleshoot it. I found that while it gave no errors when writing tape, it could not read back what it had just written! I tried several times with known good tapes - but tar could not make sense of what it had written. So watch out there... Also, I have found that the drive will basically ask for a cleaning tape any time it gets confused by what it's reading off a cartridge (for example, when putting a tape written in a 7000 into a 4000). But once you start to write data to the tape, and remount it, the problem doesn't come back. (Shutting off the drive and turning it back on will clear the "cleaning tape" light) -Ian From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 15 15:02:24 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:02:24 +0100 Subject: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St ? Message-ID: Here's a few obscure pics from the 1970's I believe take the picture link Pertec tape drive and a box with System 90 on it? and what else http://www.archivist.info/collection/searchv8.php?srcdata=title&srcprog=searchv8.php&searchv4page=1&errlev=0&searchstr=lucas+computer+lab Any information gratefully received as a treat here is an Elliott 803 at Lucas http://www.archivist.info/collection/searchv8.php?srcdata=title&srcprog=searchv8.php&searchv4page=1&errlev=0&searchstr=lucas+elliott Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 15 15:09:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:09:56 -0700 Subject: Problem reading CP/M floppy on a PC In-Reply-To: <4649F832.7040005@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <46498150.16874.1A44A4AE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4649F832.7040005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4649B124.25006.1AFF78BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 May 2007 at 13:13, Jules Richardson wrote: > Is that true? I almost had this discussion with Dave a couple of weeks ago (I > was thinking it might be nice in the Imagedisk archive format recorded the > double step flag setting in the file to provide a hint as to the drive type > [1] used) In my experience, yes, it's definitely true. I suspect it's more a matter of tolerating small misalignments better than a matter of better S/N ratio. I also reserve a couple of drives for "tough cases". Not all 360K drives perform the same when recovering marginal media and I reserve the very good drives for special occasions. One thing that few people realize is that not all drives are equally competent when it comes to clamping media "dead center". Almost all (I have some very old drives that don't) spin the motor as the disk is being clamped by the hub mechanism, but some do the clamping job better. Cheers, Chuck From grant at stockly.com Tue May 15 15:10:34 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 12:10:34 -0800 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> I have a tarbell floppy controller card that has been rewired to access 3.5" disks using a standard PC 3.5" disk drive. I have 3 disks that the Altair can boot off of and read, but my windows computer can't do anything with them. I've tried rawread.exe and diskinfo.exe and they both choke on the disk. I assumed that if a disk could be written with the standard 3.5" disk drive on the tarbell card then it should also be read on the same drive connected to a modern IBM compatible. The disks are 720K style, they don't have the high density hole. I was hoping that these disks would be an easy way to move data to and from the Altair. The version of CP/M is 1.4. What could be missing? If the bitrate is fixed, then is CP/M not writing standard sectors? Rawread says "Address not found" and diskinfo says the drive is not ready. Grant From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 15 15:10:05 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 16:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <464A0254.5000803@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4647CBC4.9030205@oldskool.org> <4649688D.4070003@e-bbes.com> <464A0254.5000803@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200705152016.QAA15463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> tar cvf BACKUP | buffer -16m > /dev/st0 > isn't that exactly what tar's blocking factor* is supposed to do, > only without the need for a separate utility? Yes, approximately, though, depending on exactly how this "buffer" works, it may not be. > *I thought it was a standard feature of tar, not something that's > only appeared since the GNU days. It is. Blocking factors in tar go back at least to 4.2 and I think to 4.1c. However, a blocking factor as high as 16 megabytes will exceed many tar's capacities (especially older versions). Furthermore, many tape drives are not streams of variable-sized tape records with interspersed tape marks (which is the model Unix tapes are designed around - roughly speaking, 9-track reel-to-reel tapes), but are instead streams of fixed-sized tape blocks with interspersed tape marks. (QIC tapes are notable for this.) On such drives, the blocking factor does not actually affect what ends up on the tape (as long as it's a multiple of the block size, at least). Many (most?) tar implementations will cheerfully take the stream of records such a drive returns as a valid tar archive; I'm not sure whether I consider this fortunate or not - I can see arguments each way. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 15 15:24:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:24:09 -0700 Subject: Fairchild MB8116E == 4116 ? In-Reply-To: <000801c796a2$c0dbb100$4101a8c0@recorder> References: <000801c796a2$c0dbb100$4101a8c0@recorder> Message-ID: <4649B479.24688.1B0C7DF0@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2007 at 19:01, JOHN FLUKE wrote: > I have a bunch (more than 80) of Both MB8116E and ITT 4116 That "F" is Fujitsu, not Fairchild. The 8116 is pretty much the same part as the 4116--3 supply 16Kx1 DRAM. However, there may be small operational differences between the 8116, 4116, and Intel 2117. In particular, it's been my experience that the early Japanese DRAMs did a better job of holding onto data, not needing refresh quite as often, as say, Intel. In particular, I recall playing around with a memory test that gradually increased the interval between refresh until memory started failing. I began to wonder if there was something wrong with my test when some NEC uPD416 DRAMs went 15 seconds without refresh and *still* retained data. Nothing wrong with the test--just good DRAM design. Cheers, Chuck From adamg at pobox.com Tue May 15 08:41:05 2007 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 09:41:05 -0400 Subject: Fairchild MB8116E == 4116 ? Message-ID: <20070515134104.GA41339@silme.pair.com> MB8116 is a Fujitsu part, not Fairchild. Per the 1982 databook it crosses to AM9016, F4116, HM4716A, 2117, M5K4116, MK4116, MCM4116, MM5290, TMS4116, TMM416. -- Adam From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 15 15:56:31 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 15 May 2007 13:56:31 -0700 Subject: Color Macintosh boot floppy? In-Reply-To: References: <200705151702.l4FH10j9048768@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1179262591.464a1e7f412ac@secure.zipcon.net> System 7.5.3 and later do not require an enabler to boot on a color classic. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 15 16:00:07 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 15 May 2007 14:00:07 -0700 Subject: Color Macintosh boot floppy? In-Reply-To: References: <200705151702.l4FH10j9048768@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1179262807.464a1f576fd71@secure.zipcon.net> ALso, were you trying to cd-boot from an Apple rommed cd-rom drive? the last time I booted an old mac off an non-apple cdrom drive I had to have a boot cd with FWB's cd-rom toolkit driver(s) on it. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue May 15 15:59:40 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 16:59:40 -0400 Subject: WAS: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <1179250515.4649ef531ca7d@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <200705152059.l4FKxmhP084056@keith.ezwind.net> On 15 May 2007 10:35:15 -0700, Geoff Reed wrote: >although I don't remember the Z-80 being a clone of the 8085 CPU like the author >of that site claims. (or has my memory gone faulty?) I have heard before from those who equate the entire Intel 808x family as a class. >From their perspective the Z-80 was designed around and expanded upon the 8080 instruction set licenced from Intel! The deal gave 8080 programmers a second source, which raised the credibility of the instruction set against the Motorola 6800 family. Motorola ended up cutting their own deal providing AMD trading some VMOS memory masks for the 68xx mask set, which they both second sourced for each other to a set of common customers who demanded a second source be available before they would finalize a design. I agree Clone might not be the correct word choice, but by todays business standards is not that far off the mark. As to the website in question, a quick look revealed it has not been updates in years, I am personally thankful that this person was just enough of a geek to have built a nice hobby page. but how managed to keep it unnoticed ? This raises the question of "how much unnoticed?", I ran the page title and meta content into YGAMS and came up with some very interesting footprint info. (see YGAMS.COM for the current beta and examples of the internet footprinting tool) >From page header My Virtual PC Museum "John B Sandlin" came up as a known with a YGAMS of ~253 The Title "My Virtual PC Museum" only hit ~ 2 on this side of never seen ! and "07/15/2002 PCs I've Owned" ~ 0 proves this has never been indexed. It looks to me that these pages have been unseen and hiding for many years behind more than just robots.txt files. Believe me a YGAMS of 0 is almost impossible to maintain once something has been published and indexed gets indexed by someone! There is little question this is fresh meat, none of the search engines have seen it YET, but that could change as soon as this mutterings got indexed, if I had but included a link to the page in question. BTW: Does anone here know who this is ? Back to my rat-killen, I have wasted enough time today muttering :) Bob Bradlee I am still trying to get my head around the fact that this email may violate 6 or more software patents... Just in its transmission, not including any possible problems someone might have with it's content ! From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 15 16:24:36 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 14:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Color Macintosh boot floppy? In-Reply-To: from Roger Holmes at "May 15, 7 07:12:59 pm" Message-ID: <200705152124.l4FLOaPh018312@floodgap.com> > > Can anyone help me with creating a boot floppy for a Color Macintosh? > > I have a machine whose hard disk died and I'm trying to replace it > > but I don't have a boot floppy containing DiskTools to format the new > > (Apple) hard drive. I *do* have an install CD for System 7.5 but it > > doesn't seem to want to boot on the Color Classic even if I hold "C" > > down when I start up the Mac. I'd be happy to pay for shipping and > > something extra for the effort involved in making the DiskTools boot > > disk. > > I think at one time you had to hold down both the C and D keys to > boot from CD on the old Macs. ITYM just C. For ones too old to have a C snag key (pretty much anything NuBus), a similar effect can be achieved with Cmd-Opt-Shift-Del. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't Be Evil. -- Paul Buchheit -------------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 15 16:32:22 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 14:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Color Macintosh boot floppy? In-Reply-To: <8CB25D1B-BBC8-42D8-806F-A0FAF6358D16@xlisper.com> from David Betz at "May 15, 7 12:01:37 pm" Message-ID: <200705152132.l4FLWMsg011590@floodgap.com> > Can anyone help me with creating a boot floppy for a Color Macintosh? > I have a machine whose hard disk died and I'm trying to replace it > but I don't have a boot floppy containing DiskTools to format the new > (Apple) hard drive. I *do* have an install CD for System 7.5 but it > doesn't seem to want to boot on the Color Classic even if I hold "C" > down when I start up the Mac. I think I posted this somewhere else, but does holding down Cmd-Shift-Opt-Del make any difference? The Color Classic is too old to boot via the C snag key. This does not require a CD-ROM driver, merely telling the boot ROM to grab from another SCSI device. The CD should then be treated as a great big read-only hard drive. If the disc spins, but the Classic either gives you a Sad Mac, goes black or gives you an error, the 7.5 disc is either for the wrong model or too old to have the proper Enabler. Some of those 7.5 discs are model-specific. If the disc doesn't spin, I'd make sure that the SCSI connections are good because this should work on most models with a SCSI bus (definitely the Color Classic amongst them). > By the way, I've already tried downloading the DiskTools 7.5 and 8.5 > images that are available on the net. Unfortunately, they won't boot > on the Color Classic. I get a message saying that a system resource > is missing. I'm assuming that they don't have the right enabler for > the Color Classic. DiskTools 8.5?? There's a DiskTools for 8.0/8.1 but that will not work on an '030. The 7.5 probably is missing the Enabler, as you say. I'm not aware of an 8.5 Disk Tools *floppy* image, but even if you found one, 8.5 and up are PPC only. A 7.6 should boot right up on it if you can find one (I don't have one myself, sorry). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Since we're all here, we must not be all there. -- Bob "Mountain" Beck ----- From fu3.org at gmail.com Tue May 15 16:38:36 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 23:38:36 +0200 Subject: interesting classic video game anniversary story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <310f50ab0705151438j35fa2dbr7925df2300094ddd@mail.gmail.com> Very interesting indeed; thanks! 2007/5/15, Paxton Hoag : > This is an interesting read and some pics of the very first video games. > > http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3159462 > > Found the link on slashdot. > > Paxton > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 15 16:29:26 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 16:29:26 -0500 Subject: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464A2636.8000908@yahoo.co.uk> > as a treat here is an Elliott 803 at Lucas Awww, it looks just like ours :) I'm curious about the desk for the console now - I wonder if that was supplied by Elliott or not (ours is currently sat on a period table, although we do have the original paper tape station). I'll have to make some enquiries... I wonder if that Lucas one had any film handlers? If so, it's a shame that they're not shown :-( From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 15 16:54:32 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 22:54:32 +0100 Subject: interesting classic video game anniversary story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15/5/07 20:49, "Paxton Hoag" wrote: > This is an interesting read and some pics of the very first video games. > > http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3159462 I share my 40th year with the birth of Pong, I'm happy with that :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 15 17:15:05 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <20070515151348.G85893@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 May 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > I have a tarbell floppy controller card that has been rewired to access > 3.5" disks using a standard PC 3.5" disk drive. I have 3 disks that the > Altair can boot off of and read, but my windows computer can't do anything > with them. I've tried rawread.exe and diskinfo.exe and they both choke on > the disk. I assumed that if a disk could be written with the standard 3.5" > disk drive on the tarbell card then it should also be read on the same > drive connected to a modern IBM compatible. Not necessarily. What are the specifics of the format that the Tarbell controller is writing on those disks? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 15 17:33:55 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > I have a tarbell floppy controller card that has been rewired to access > 3.5" disks using a standard PC 3.5" disk drive. [snip] > What could be missing? If the bitrate is fixed, then is CP/M not writing > standard sectors? Rawread says "Address not found" and diskinfo says the > drive is not ready. I take it you don't have access to a Unix machine? The dd command might be able to fish out something more from that disk. Specifically, the utility cpmtools is useful for writing to a variety of disk formats and is easy to customize for new formats. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From james at attfield.co.uk Tue May 15 17:50:59 2007 From: james at attfield.co.uk (Jim Attfield) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 23:50:59 +0100 Subject: General SCSI+ DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <200705152228.l4FMRUMI056654@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:07:03 -0500 > From: Jim Leonard > Subject: Re: General SCSI+DLT speed questions > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4649F6C7.4010402 at oldskool.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > On the system I had it hooked up to (a 933MHz Linux box with hardware > RAID) keeping the drives fed was no problem. > > Anyway, I'm happy to see that, although seeming to need a cleaning tape > every 4 loads or so, they function as expected :-) > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ The cleaning light can also indicate media problems, not just head cleaning time. I have a few tapes which frequently trigger the head-cleaning light even though recently cleaned. Jim From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue May 15 17:53:48 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:53:48 -0400 Subject: Color Macintosh boot floppy? In-Reply-To: <1179262591.464a1e7f412ac@secure.zipcon.net> References: <200705151702.l4FH10j9048768@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1179262591.464a1e7f412ac@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <3685B5BF-9921-499F-A3AA-24D54F4C06C3@xlisper.com> On May 15, 2007, at 4:56 PM, Geoff Reed wrote: > System 7.5.3 and later do not require an enabler to boot on a color > classic. Thanks! I think I see the problem. I actually have a Color Classic II (since I replaced the original CC system board with an LC 550 system board). I put the original board back in and am now able to boot my DiskTools floppy. Hopefully, once I finish installing 7.5.3 update CD, I'll be able to put the LC 550 board back in and have a 33mhz Color Classic! Then all I have to do is find a 32MB SIMM to bring it up to 36MB (it's at 8MB now). From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 15 18:07:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:07:14 -0500 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: References: <4649F6C7.4010402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <464A3D22.7000406@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:07 PM -0500 5/15/07, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Anyway, I'm happy to see that, although seeming to need a cleaning >> tape every 4 loads or so, they function as expected :-) > > That's not normal, are you in a very dirty environment, or using tapes > that are in bad condition? The tapes are definitely not new, so that may be it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 15 18:06:32 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:06:32 -0500 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <484579.66742.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <484579.66742.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <464A3CF8.9080103@oldskool.org> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Also, I have found that the drive will basically ask > for a cleaning tape any time it gets confused by what > it's reading off a cartridge (for example, when > putting a tape written in a 7000 into a 4000). But > once you start to write data to the tape, and remount > it, the problem doesn't come back. (Shutting off the > drive and turning it back on will clear the "cleaning > tape" light) That sounds very much like what I'm going through, since I also had a dozen DLTIV tapes that came with the drive, all of unknown origin. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From fu3.org at gmail.com Tue May 15 18:07:54 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 01:07:54 +0200 Subject: interesting classic video game anniversary story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <310f50ab0705151607j561a09f4n7c2a3ad11b82082c@mail.gmail.com> Heh, are four of your Pongs for sale too? (44 total, if I'm not mistaking..) -Just joking. ;) -Binary Dinosaurs is a *legend*; been looking back at it for years and years now with no plans to stop, (but you're bound to hear this all the time, I'd guess, so I'll shut up..) ;) 2007/5/15, Adrian Graham : > On 15/5/07 20:49, "Paxton Hoag" wrote: > > > This is an interesting read and some pics of the very first video games. > > > > http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3159462 > > I share my 40th year with the birth of Pong, I'm happy with that :) > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 15 06:16:18 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 05:16:18 -0600 Subject: Color Macintosh boot floppy? In-Reply-To: <3685B5BF-9921-499F-A3AA-24D54F4C06C3@xlisper.com> References: <200705151702.l4FH10j9048768@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1179262591.464a1e7f412ac@secure.zipcon.net> <3685B5BF-9921-499F-A3AA-24D54F4C06C3@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <46499682.60202@jetnet.ab.ca> David Betz wrote: > On May 15, 2007, at 4:56 PM, Geoff Reed wrote: Thanks! I think I see the problem. I actually have a Color Classic II > (since I replaced the original CC system board with an LC 550 system > board). I put the original board back in and am now able to boot my > DiskTools floppy. Hopefully, once I finish installing 7.5.3 update CD, > I'll be able to put the LC 550 board back in and have a 33mhz Color > Classic! Then all I have to do is find a 32MB SIMM to bring it up to > 36MB (it's at 8MB now). I must be a young old fart ... I still remember having read a hardware hack in Dr Dobb's on how to upgrade your (classic) mac from 128kb. PS. I don't have socks that old regarding a earlier post. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 15 17:19:23 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 23:19:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163489.45182.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I heard they used Amiga 4000's... or is that what you meant with "hopped-up A2000's"?? I was a big fan of Babylon 5 in the early days (I liked Ivanova (Claudia Christian)), but hardly watched any episodes of the last 2 seasons. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Ethan Dicks wrote: Babylon 5 used hopped-up Amiga 2000s w/68040s and Toasters and Lightwave for their first season, but I think they switched the rendering platform to Lightwave on Pentium-class machines for the remainder of the show. Don't know if they continued to use Toasters for laying down the rendered images to tape or not. It was still cool to see Amiga output in a serious commercial venue, though. -ethan From fu3.org at gmail.com Tue May 15 18:26:50 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 01:26:50 +0200 Subject: WAS: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <200705152059.l4FKxmhP084056@keith.ezwind.net> References: <1179250515.4649ef531ca7d@secure.zipcon.net> <200705152059.l4FKxmhP084056@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <310f50ab0705151626m12830a25gbadd6615264680b5@mail.gmail.com> Bob, I have no idea who this person is, and unfortunately I've forgotten what page(s) I followed to get there. -If you snip out all but the domain name from the URL I posted, it seems that _that_ might be your very guy. (Try navigating through the/his "Hobbies" link onto the computer museum, and decide for yourself.. -It's at the bottom of that "Hobbies" page..) - - - Front page updated little over a year ago, so, further inquiries doesn't seem all that impossible, if anyone should be so inclined. 2007/5/15, Bob Bradlee : > On 15 May 2007 10:35:15 -0700, Geoff Reed wrote: > > >although I don't remember the Z-80 being a clone of the 8085 CPU like the author > >of that site claims. (or has my memory gone faulty?) > > I have heard before from those who equate the entire Intel 808x family as a class. > >From their perspective the Z-80 was designed around and expanded upon the 8080 instruction set licenced > from Intel! > The deal gave 8080 programmers a second source, which raised the credibility of the instruction set > against the Motorola 6800 family. > Motorola ended up cutting their own deal providing AMD trading some VMOS memory masks for the 68xx > mask set, which they both second sourced for each other to a set of common customers who demanded a > second source be available before they would finalize a design. > > I agree Clone might not be the correct word choice, but by todays business standards is not that far off the > mark. > > As to the website in question, a quick look revealed it has not been updates in years, I am personally > thankful that this person was just enough of a geek to have built a nice hobby page. but how managed to > keep it unnoticed ? > > This raises the question of "how much unnoticed?", I ran the page title and meta content into YGAMS and > came up with some very interesting footprint info. (see YGAMS.COM for the current beta and examples of > the internet footprinting tool) > > >From page header > My Virtual PC Museum > > > > > "John B Sandlin" came up as a known with a YGAMS of ~253 > The Title "My Virtual PC Museum" only hit ~ 2 on this side of never seen ! > and "07/15/2002 PCs I've Owned" ~ 0 proves this has never been indexed. > > It looks to me that these pages have been unseen and hiding for many years behind more than just robots.txt > files. Believe me a YGAMS of 0 is almost impossible to maintain once something has been published and > indexed gets indexed by someone! > > There is little question this is fresh meat, none of the search engines have seen it YET, but that could > change as soon as this mutterings got indexed, if I had but included a link to the page in question. > > BTW: Does anone here know who this is ? > > Back to my rat-killen, I have wasted enough time today muttering :) > > Bob Bradlee > > I am still trying to get my head around the fact that this email may violate 6 or more software patents... > Just in its transmission, not including any possible problems someone might have with it's content ! > > > > > > > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue May 15 18:45:39 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 19:45:39 -0400 Subject: WAS: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0705151626m12830a25gbadd6615264680b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200705152345.l4FNjjSB093026@keith.ezwind.net> I had not planned to sent that one untill I could edit it a bit :( Here is a link to a ygam chart I generated for that mutterings and it includes a link to the page. http://ygams.com/ygams.lsp?Switchtech Bob On Wed, 16 May 2007 01:26:50 +0200, from at fu3.org wrote: >Bob, >I have no idea who this person is, and unfortunately I've forgotten >what page(s) I followed to get there. >-If you snip out all but the domain name from the URL I posted, it >seems that _that_ might be your very guy. >(Try navigating through the/his "Hobbies" link onto the computer >museum, and decide for yourself.. -It's at the bottom of that >"Hobbies" page..) - - - Front page updated little over a year ago, so, >further inquiries doesn't seem all that impossible, if anyone should >be so inclined. >2007/5/15, Bob Bradlee : >> On 15 May 2007 10:35:15 -0700, Geoff Reed wrote: >> >> >although I don't remember the Z-80 being a clone of the 8085 CPU like the author >> >of that site claims. (or has my memory gone faulty?) >> >> I have heard before from those who equate the entire Intel 808x family as a class. >> >From their perspective the Z-80 was designed around and expanded upon the 8080 instruction set licenced >> from Intel! >> The deal gave 8080 programmers a second source, which raised the credibility of the instruction set >> against the Motorola 6800 family. >> Motorola ended up cutting their own deal providing AMD trading some VMOS memory masks for the 68xx >> mask set, which they both second sourced for each other to a set of common customers who demanded a >> second source be available before they would finalize a design. >> >> I agree Clone might not be the correct word choice, but by todays business standards is not that far off the >> mark. >> >> As to the website in question, a quick look revealed it has not been updates in years, I am personally >> thankful that this person was just enough of a geek to have built a nice hobby page. but how managed to >> keep it unnoticed ? >> >> This raises the question of "how much unnoticed?", I ran the page title and meta content into YGAMS and >> came up with some very interesting footprint info. (see YGAMS.COM for the current beta and examples of >> the internet footprinting tool) >> >> >From page header >> My Virtual PC Museum >> >> >> >> >> "John B Sandlin" came up as a known with a YGAMS of ~253 >> The Title "My Virtual PC Museum" only hit ~ 2 on this side of never seen ! >> and "07/15/2002 PCs I've Owned" ~ 0 proves this has never been indexed. >> >> It looks to me that these pages have been unseen and hiding for many years behind more than just robots.txt >> files. Believe me a YGAMS of 0 is almost impossible to maintain once something has been published and >> indexed gets indexed by someone! >> >> There is little question this is fresh meat, none of the search engines have seen it YET, but that could >> change as soon as this mutterings got indexed, if I had but included a link to the page in question. >> >> BTW: Does anone here know who this is ? >> >> Back to my rat-killen, I have wasted enough time today muttering :) >> >> Bob Bradlee >> >> I am still trying to get my head around the fact that this email may violate 6 or more software patents... >> Just in its transmission, not including any possible problems someone might have with it's content ! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 15 18:57:44 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 15 May 2007 16:57:44 -0700 Subject: WAS: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <200705152345.l4FNjjSB093026@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200705152345.l4FNjjSB093026@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1179273464.464a48f8d617c@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Bob Bradlee : > I had not planned to sent that one untill I could edit it a bit :( > > Here is a link to a ygam chart I generated for that mutterings and it > includes > a link to the page. > > http://ygams.com/ygams.lsp?Switchtech > > Bob list expected in function dolist : pcist called from user defined function DoMtype doe it not like Firefox? From fu3.org at gmail.com Tue May 15 19:05:30 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 02:05:30 +0200 Subject: WAS: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <1179273464.464a48f8d617c@secure.zipcon.net> References: <200705152345.l4FNjjSB093026@keith.ezwind.net> <1179273464.464a48f8d617c@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <310f50ab0705151705k7371669ch1a901c1cf865de02@mail.gmail.com> ..nor SeaMonkey, which is Gecko-based also. (I mean; I get the same output as parent..) 15 May 2007 16:57:44 -0700, Geoff Reed : > Quoting Bob Bradlee : > > > I had not planned to sent that one untill I could edit it a bit :( > > > > Here is a link to a ygam chart I generated for that mutterings and it > > includes > > a link to the page. > > > > http://ygams.com/ygams.lsp?Switchtech > > > > Bob > > > list expected in function dolist : pcist > > called from user defined function DoMtype > > doe it not like Firefox? > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 15 19:19:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Televideo TS-802 also in Canada In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <140174.19959.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> no rather I want the 1602 or whatever it's called. There was a cp/m version, but I want duh one wit duh Intel inside ;) --- Richard wrote: > It looks scuffed up too. Besides, you really want > the TS-803 which > has a much cooler looking case and has graphics :-) > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft > available for download > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 15 19:24:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: opinion needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <303582.18148.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> > The PGC board set seems to be quite rare. The last > one I spotted on E-bay > sold for over $100 (I know, becuase I was > outbid....), it's one of the > IBM oadapters I don't have yet and am seriously > lookin for. I guy tipped me off to a feller that sold him a set for $20. I called him up then he wanted $50. I said no thanks. I do have the Vermont Microsystems clone though. Plugs into the 5175 and a multisync of course. There were several clones of the PGA/PGC. It's a strange beast. > > at MIT. As such, do these represent any particular > > value? I have an AT already, but these are > seemingly > > more interesting having dwelt w/i the hallowed > halls > > of an illustrious technical university. > > That wouldn't bother me, but some people seem to > like it... Why? It has history, unlike the typical beige box... ____________________________________________________________________________________Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 15 19:28:26 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <525549.98160.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> > Note, however, that 'composite video' does not imply > TV rates. I am sure > I've seen an HP composite monitoe that was soemthing > like 22kHz horizontal. On the other hand, when I refer to TV/NTSC type frequencies, I don't mean composite necessarily either. CGA uses comparable frequencies, but seperate RGBI and syncs ____________________________________________________________________________________Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 15 19:31:39 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: opinion needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <462331.98848.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Paxton Hoag wrote: > There are hopefully spare MFM hard drives in the > 5170s that are worth > keeping, especially if they have the PGA drivers. > This is before plug > and play but then I have only had one PGA and it was > at least 15 years > ago. I bet the software is more common than the PGA > hardware at this > time, What software? Do you mean generic cad stuff that supported it? There wasn't too much else that did seemingly. ____________________________________________________________________________________Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue May 15 19:37:26 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 20:37:26 -0400 Subject: interesting classic video game anniversary story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464A5246.2050004@atarimuseum.com> I've had the pleasure and honor to meet with Ralph Baer several times at his home and also numerous phone calls. He is a true engineer at heart and he just loves to create new concepts and idea's. He still has an active test bench and to this day is still designing and creating products. Plus he makes himself, by hand, replica's of his original "Brown Boxes" for museums and exhibit's. Now in his 80's he's still going strong. I may be an Atari guy and you'd think I'd be a fan of Nolan Bushnell, but Nolan is just a business man, he just sees the money side of things, it was the creative people around him that made Atari, Pizzatime, Androbot's and his other companies what they were. Ralph is the exact opposite, he is the tireless creator and engineer, always coming up with something new and fun, kudo's Ralph, you deserve it! Curt Paxton Hoag wrote: > This is an interesting read and some pics of the very first video games. > > http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3159462 > > Found the link on slashdot. > > Paxton From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue May 15 19:45:07 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:45:07 -0700 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90705151745m60f77fe5y657baf00ae6c48eb@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/07, Grant Stockly wrote: > I have a tarbell floppy controller card that has been rewired to access > 3.5" disks using a standard PC 3.5" disk drive. I have 3 disks that the > Altair can boot off of and read, but my windows computer can't do anything > with them. I've tried rawread.exe and diskinfo.exe and they both choke on > the disk. I assumed that if a disk could be written with the standard 3.5" > disk drive on the tarbell card then it should also be read on the same > drive connected to a modern IBM compatible. > Are you using a 1771 based SD Tarbell card, or a 1791/1793 based DD Tarbell card? That might make a difference. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 15 19:51:34 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: phree stuph Message-ID: <876947.5105.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> reply offlist hosers Logitech Scanman Handheld scanner user manual a bunch of caddies, prolly 20+ generic Mac ADB trackball Wordstar Reference Manual for 2000 plus release 3, I may have others in this series, no disks/images I don't think though MCS-8080/8085 Family User's Manual Adobe Streamline, boxed, 5 1/4" disks, I won't vouch for their integrity DBase III Plus Command Performance Series (M$ Press?) The New Wordstar Customizing Guide Analyzing Broadband Networks, 3rd Ed. Soundblaster Midi Kit, boxed, disk and cable AS/400 User's Manual, wire bound The Modem Reference, 2nd Ed. Brady pubs. 3 non-functional Commodore Plus 4's (I think, the brown squarish ones). chips missing. Basically doorstops or parts. I might want to keep one, don't know... *these are moldy, but readable* PC Tools Deluxe Hard Drive Back Up PC Tools Data Recovery and Dos Utilities PC Tools Data Recovery and Utilities If any interest, postage must be payed in advance by snail mail. I don't have paypal and don't want to bother with it right now. If there's no interest after ~1 week, I throw it all in the trash. Muahahahahahahaha ____________________________________________________________________________________Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 15 20:01:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:01:51 -0700 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90705151745m60f77fe5y657baf00ae6c48eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com>, <1e1fc3e90705151745m60f77fe5y657baf00ae6c48eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4649F58F.31796.1C0AB882@cclist.sydex.com> On 5/15/07, Grant Stockly wrote: > I have a tarbell floppy controller card that has been rewired to access > 3.5" disks using a standard PC 3.5" disk drive. I have 3 disks that the > Altair can boot off of and read, but my windows computer can't do anything > with them. I've tried rawread.exe and diskinfo.exe and they both choke on > the disk. I assumed that if a disk could be written with the standard 3.5" > disk drive on the tarbell card then it should also be read on the same > drive connected to a modern IBM compatible. Without more information, the best anyone can do is try to read your mind. Here's my try. You're putting an 8" format on a 3.5" drive. Perhaps the drive you're using uses pin 2 as a density select and completely ignores the extra HD hole in your 720K disk. That's sort of the opposite of recording a 720K format on a 1.44M disk--the cure there is to cover the HD hole in the 1.44M disk. If the reverse were true, you'd drill (or punch) a hole in the 720K floppy. Cheers, Chuck From grant at stockly.com Tue May 15 20:09:37 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:09:37 -0800 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90705151745m60f77fe5y657baf00ae6c48eb@mail.gmail.co m> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> At 04:45 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote: >On 5/15/07, Grant Stockly wrote: >>I have a tarbell floppy controller card that has been rewired to access >>3.5" disks using a standard PC 3.5" disk drive. I have 3 disks that the >>Altair can boot off of and read, but my windows computer can't do anything >>with them. I've tried rawread.exe and diskinfo.exe and they both choke on >>the disk. I assumed that if a disk could be written with the standard 3.5" >>disk drive on the tarbell card then it should also be read on the same >>drive connected to a modern IBM compatible. > >Are you using a 1771 based SD Tarbell card, or a 1791/1793 based DD >Tarbell card? That might make a difference. Its an MDL-1011D with an FD1771-B01. What's the deal with this chip? Is it formatting the the disk as 360k? I can scan the modification sheet and card if anyone is interested. I'd really love to make a disk image of the disk to share with people. I might have to write a bootstrap program that reads from the serial port and writes to a disk. Grant From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue May 15 21:10:29 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:10:29 -0500 Subject: Problem reading CP/M floppy on a PC In-Reply-To: <464A0F99.5010302@philpem.me.uk> References: <200705151728.l4FHS89s012583@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200705160112.l4G1CauK004417@hosting.monisys.ca> > That's nice to know - FWICT my modified YE Data drive is running at about > 290RPM instead of 300 (based on the index pulse timing). Now I don't have to > try and figure out how to speed it up by another 10RPM :) > That said, the drive motor appears to be crystal-locked, so increasing the RPM > might be a little difficult anyway. Thats odd - I have a number of drives that are crystal controlled and non- adjustable, and they are all "bang on" 300 or 360 rpm ... Thats a pretty big error. > BTW Dave, thanks for the page on modifying 5.25" drives for 300RPM - the > method you mentioned worked like a charm. I'd post the wire colours for the > high/low speed switch, but the drive's downstairs. Basically, there's one line > that's always at +5.0V, one that's always +12.0V, one that's on/off depending > on the motor's state (on or off) and one that sits at around 4V. Ground the 4V > line at the motor controller board (and disconnect said wire from the drive > controller/head amp board first!) to get 300RPM. The exact wire colors very from drive to drive which is why I describe the method (pretty much what you describe above) to find the right one... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue May 15 20:16:49 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:16:49 -0400 Subject: Color Macintosh boot floppy? In-Reply-To: <200705152132.l4FLWMsg011590@floodgap.com> References: <200705152132.l4FLWMsg011590@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I guess the problem ended up being that I didn't really have a Color Classic. I had forgotten that I had upgraded to a Color Classic II by replacing the system board with an LC 550 board. When I swapped the original system board back in, the DiskTools 7.5 floppy booted up just fine. I was then able to install System 7.5 from CD and then overlay Update 2.0 (7.5.3) and the 7.5.5 Update downloaded from the Apple site. I then put the LC 550 board back in and I'm up and running with 7.5.5. Now I need to find a 32mb SIMM to upgrade the 550 board to its maximum of 36mb and a PDS ethernet card. Thanks everyone for the assistance! David From grant at stockly.com Tue May 15 20:23:43 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:23:43 -0800 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> References: <1e1fc3e90705151745m60f77fe5y657baf00ae6c48eb@mail.gmail.co m> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515172227.04fcaea8@pop.1and1.com> At 05:09 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote: >At 04:45 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote: >>On 5/15/07, Grant Stockly wrote: >>>I have a tarbell floppy controller card that has been rewired to access >>>3.5" disks using a standard PC 3.5" disk drive. I have 3 disks that the >>>Altair can boot off of and read, but my windows computer can't do anything >>>with them. I've tried rawread.exe and diskinfo.exe and they both choke on >>>the disk. I assumed that if a disk could be written with the standard 3.5" >>>disk drive on the tarbell card then it should also be read on the same >>>drive connected to a modern IBM compatible. >> >>Are you using a 1771 based SD Tarbell card, or a 1791/1793 based DD >>Tarbell card? That might make a difference. > >Its an MDL-1011D with an FD1771-B01. > >What's the deal with this chip? Is it formatting the the disk as 360k? > >I can scan the modification sheet and card if anyone is interested. I'd >really love to make a disk image of the disk to share with people. I >might have to write a bootstrap program that reads from the serial port >and writes to a disk. The crystal has also been changed from (I think) 4MHz to 2MHz. There are cut traces, changed resistors, etc... I'll scan the mdoifications. Grant From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 15 20:28:08 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <20070515182151.V97169@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 May 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > Its an MDL-1011D with an FD1771-B01. > What's the deal with this chip? Is it formatting the the disk as 360k? Nothing special. It is a SINGLE DENSITY (FM) ONLY chip. Although it might give a final capacity of 360K or thereabouts, It's parameters are most certainly NOT the same as the IBM "360K" format. It is most likely formatting it as 10 256 byte sectors per track, or as 18 128 byte sectors. Tools for looking at MFM disks would be looking for MFM. NOT FM, and would prob'ly default to expecting 512 bytes per sector. SOME 3.5" disk drives may have difficulty dealing with FM (Single Density). From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 15 20:43:21 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 02:43:21 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90705151124k7cf08db3pc6450732a6fdffe1@mail.gmail.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F0D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <4649DE70.2010106@dunnington.plus.com> <1e1fc3e90705151124k7cf08db3pc6450732a6fdffe1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464A61B9.8030706@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/05/2007 19:24, Glen Slick wrote: > On 5/15/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_memory >> As always, additions and corrections are welcome. > MSV11-JB M8637-B 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 ONLY > MSV11-JC M8637-C 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 ONLY > MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 > MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 > > NOTE: Modules designated MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC may be used in the > PDP-11/84 (UNIBUS) system only. Modules designated MSV11-JD and > MSV11-JE may be used in both the PDP-11/84 and PDP-11/83 (Q-bus) > systems. If you look, you'll see I did in fact include that information in the note at the bottom. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue May 15 20:54:18 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:54:18 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 RX50 boot frustration Message-ID: <464A644A.90305@nktelco.net> I have been trying to boot my Pro380 from an RX50 and can't seem to get it to work. I have to be missing something. I have been using RX50 floppies that work fine in an -11/73. When I put those disks in the Pro I get an error code that translates to "Bad format or blank disk." and a picture of a floppy with a question mark. I created RT11 boot disks for the FB monitor and used the COPY/BOOT:DZ thing to get the right bootstrap. All on a real -11/73. I was able to initialize a volume on the diskette using P/OS from the Pro's hard disk. The resulting disk boots in the -11/73 with the message ***THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM ***. In the Pro it gives me that same error code 340. The fact that this message was created by the Pro makes me think there is nothing wrong with the hardware or the floppy format. I have swapped floppy controllers and RX50 drives with no change. I have downloaded a couple disk images that I thought should be bootable (P/OS maintenance utilities) with the same results. I have a little less confidence in this because I had to convert .td0 images to binary images to copy to the floppy. I did find a note about installing 2.9bsd on the Pro that indicates that the floppy must have a special header for the bootstrap different from the NOP and BR that the normal PDP-11's usually require. Shouldn't this be taken care of by the RT11 bootstrap installation process? Is there something that needs to be in the first track that is missing from my disks? This Pro380 was a VAX console. Is there possibly something different about the firmware? From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue May 15 21:17:10 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 22:17:10 -0400 Subject: WAS: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0705151705k7371669ch1a901c1cf865de02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200705160217.l4G2HLPP000379@keith.ezwind.net> OOPS .... MY Bad ! http://ygams.com/ygams.lsp?Switchtech is fixed now. I had rolled back some changes I made today, I was in a hurry and forgot to restore one of the include files that I had also changed. Function DoMtype's parameters had been changed from a list to a string between versions, thus the error message you were seeing. It looked and worked just fine here, untill I cleared my cookies, and then it blew it's cookies just like it did for every one new to the site. Bob On Wed, 16 May 2007 02:05:30 +0200, from at fu3.org wrote: >..nor SeaMonkey, which is Gecko-based also. (I mean; I get the same >output as parent..) >15 May 2007 16:57:44 -0700, Geoff Reed : >> Quoting Bob Bradlee : >> >> > I had not planned to sent that one untill I could edit it a bit :( >> > >> > Here is a link to a ygam chart I generated for that mutterings and it >> > includes >> > a link to the page. >> > >> > http://ygams.com/ygams.lsp?Switchtech >> > >> > Bob >> >> >> list expected in function dolist : pcist >> >> called from user defined function DoMtype >> >> doe it not like Firefox? >> From fu3.org at gmail.com Tue May 15 21:53:24 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 04:53:24 +0200 Subject: WAS: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <200705160217.l4G2HLPP000379@keith.ezwind.net> References: <310f50ab0705151705k7371669ch1a901c1cf865de02@mail.gmail.com> <200705160217.l4G2HLPP000379@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <310f50ab0705151953j5300ab04if741ffb93fce54ae@mail.gmail.com> Nothing to apologize about :) What is it based on; --any idea how "accurate" this is? 2007/5/16, Bob Bradlee : > OOPS .... MY Bad ! > http://ygams.com/ygams.lsp?Switchtech is fixed now. > I had rolled back some changes I made today, I was in a hurry and forgot to restore one of the include > files that I had also changed. Function DoMtype's parameters had been changed from a list to a string > between versions, thus the error message you were seeing. It looked and worked just fine here, untill I > cleared my cookies, and then it blew it's cookies just like it did for every one new to the site. > > Bob > > On Wed, 16 May 2007 02:05:30 +0200, from at fu3.org wrote: > > >..nor SeaMonkey, which is Gecko-based also. (I mean; I get the same > >output as parent..) > > >15 May 2007 16:57:44 -0700, Geoff Reed : > >> Quoting Bob Bradlee : > >> > >> > I had not planned to sent that one untill I could edit it a bit :( > >> > > >> > Here is a link to a ygam chart I generated for that mutterings and it > >> > includes > >> > a link to the page. > >> > > >> > http://ygams.com/ygams.lsp?Switchtech > >> > > >> > Bob > >> > >> > >> list expected in function dolist : pcist > >> > >> called from user defined function DoMtype > >> > >> doe it not like Firefox? > >> > > > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 15 22:08:08 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 00:08:08 -0300 Subject: Subject: Re: Manuals being scanned References: <1DA1986C-D53A-4EA2-B1F1-64EE9E0539E0@neurotica.com> <200705141410.47583.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <015801c79767$b6f0ab80$f0fea8c0@alpha> > What tools are you using to do this? I have a number of datasheets that I > haven't put online yet because they're "branded" with other sites feeling > the > need to put a "page" in there saying where they've been downloaded from, > for > example, or other similar nonsense. I don't think these pages NEED to be chopped. But if you are up to it, use primoPDF printer driver/pdf creator and print the datasheet from page 2 to end. Presto! There goes the annoying page ;o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 15 22:06:35 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 00:06:35 -0300 Subject: Old electrolytic capacitors (IME-86s calculator) References: , <4648352D.16022.15333D66@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <015701c79767$b69f7e40$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I'll usually insert an appropriately-sized incandescent lamp in > series with the line when I'm powering up an older piece of equipment > in unknown condition. This is what I do here From whdawson at nidhog.net Tue May 15 22:25:41 2007 From: whdawson at nidhog.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 23:25:41 -0400 Subject: Vintage Test Set, a Hardware Hackers Delight on eBay Message-ID: (LURK OFF) Item 290114723691, Safetran Dual Tone Multi-Frequency Test Set A41080. I thought about buying another of these just for its potential, but am passing on bidding on this one and letting the list be aware of what I found this in this little 14x10x6 inch fiberglass case. I bought one of these, 290112949036, from the same seller. It arrived UPS 3-day today, was very well packed, and looks to have never been used. I'm quite pleased with its quality and potential. Oh, and it works great. The manual that came with mine is everything a manual should be, Operation, Circuit Description (4 1/2 pages alone), Block Diagram (detailed), Troubleshooting, Wiring Diagram, Schematics, Component Layout Diagrams and Parts Lists. If someone on this list wins the auction, ending May-16-07 13:29:44 PDT, I'll photocopy the manual for them if it's not available anywhere else (I haven't looked). The manual is dated April 82, although my test set was made in August 85. Portable uProcessor controlled tone DTMF decoder/encoder 2 & 4 wire. Audible monitor Intercom mode, includes adjustable amp, speaker & electret mike. 12 digit LED readout (2 x HP HDSP3733) Reset Button All I.C.s in sockets Contents: Separate Keyboard/Display and Processor/Power Supply boards connected by a ribbon cable, and an Intercom board with Volume control and transmit level controls. Processor board: MC6809 @ 1Mhz, 2x 2716, 2Kx8 CMOS RAM (MSM5128), MC6821 PIA, MT8865 DTMF Band Splitter, 2-of-8 Tone Encoder MC14410P, Keyboard Encoder MM74C923, Hex Bounce Controller MC14490VL, Watchdog, all the necessary glue, and power supply rectification & regulation Display/Keypad board: LED displays, Hex Keypad, 4 other momentary buttons, 3 other LEDs, 2x Hex Display Driver Controller MM74C917, Keyboard Encoder MM74C92312, and 12 digit LED readout (2 x HP HDSP3733). Great hacking potential, now to figure out what to hack it into. Guess a nice 6809 Monitor in EPROM would be a good start... I have no relation to the seller in this auction other than as a very satisfied buyer. Regards, Bill Dawson (/LURK OFF) -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 15 22:37:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 23:37:33 -0400 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: <163489.45182.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <163489.45182.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/15/07, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I heard they used Amiga 4000's... or is that what you meant with "hopped-up A2000's"?? No, I meant hopped-up A2000s, as in A2000 chassis with 68040 boards... ECS, not AGA chipset (not that the graphics mattered for rendering)... it was a cost thing... if I have the story right, the issue was that they needed an Amiga platform to use their Lightwave models, etc., but didn't care about anything but CPU speed and CPU-to-mem speed. That's where all the time went. They might have upgraded to A4000s in the final push with real Amiga hardware, but I am reasonably certain that a couple dozen heavily loaded A2000s were the original renderfarm. > I was a big fan of Babylon 5 in the early days (I liked Ivanova (Claudia Christian)), but hardly watched any episodes of the last 2 seasons. I watched them all, but I agree that the last season just didn't compare to the earlier stuff. I am looking forward to seeing what they put out this July - yes, the show is still in production (they just wrapped a few months ago). The latest bit was largely shot on a green stage with virtual sets - nothing like the old sets (which I visited in 1996). -ethan From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue May 15 22:46:50 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 20:46:50 -0700 Subject: Anyone recognize this terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464A7EAA.8070507@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >This little photo is all I have to go on; someone else is looking to >ID this puppy and I said I would ask around. > > > > > Could also be Zentec from the shape. the photo is too small to speculate on that w/o a better look at it. They had the same shapes and sold to a variety of other vendors. Microdata had a Zentec design for instance and it was tan with brown trim. This fits with what DG said from a color standpoint though. Jim From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 16 00:23:35 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 22:23:35 -0700 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464A61B9.8030706@dunnington.plus.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F0D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <4649DE70.2010106@dunnington.plus.com> <1e1fc3e90705151124k7cf08db3pc6450732a6fdffe1@mail.gmail.com> <464A61B9.8030706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90705152223v40d07af4vfc6902f2f8a8b987@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: > If you look, you'll see I did in fact include that information in the > note at the bottom. > Sorry I missed that in your list. Looks like a useful list to bookmark. Thanks. http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_memory From mikeee at tiscali.it Tue May 15 16:54:46 2007 From: mikeee at tiscali.it (Michele Marongiu) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 23:54:46 +0200 Subject: Disk Nicolet 1280 spectrometer Message-ID: <003a01c7973b$a6f4e380$f4deaa80$@it> Good morning, excuse me for the trouble, have I seen a discussion on a forum and have I seen that her posside it "Nicolet 1280", do I have the necessity to restore mine "Nicolet 1280", don't I have the floppy disk that allows the operation anymore, is it possible to send me by mail the packet of the softwares? I Thank you in advance. Dr. Michele Marongiu From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 15 17:12:31 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:12:31 -0400 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <464A304F.9040306@bellatlantic.net> Grant Stockly wrote: > I have a tarbell floppy controller card that has been rewired to access > 3.5" disks using a standard PC 3.5" disk drive. I have 3 disks that the > Altair can boot off of and read, but my windows computer can't do > anything with them. I've tried rawread.exe and diskinfo.exe and they > both choke on the disk. I assumed that if a disk could be written with > the standard 3.5" disk drive on the tarbell card then it should also be > read on the same drive connected to a modern IBM compatible. > > The disks are 720K style, they don't have the high density hole. > > I was hoping that these disks would be an easy way to move data to and > from the Altair. > > The version of CP/M is 1.4. > > What could be missing? If the bitrate is fixed, then is CP/M not > writing standard sectors? Rawread says "Address not found" and diskinfo > says the drive is not ready. > > Grant > > The tarbel card is the single density version or is a double density one? One way to tell is 1771 single density only, 1791 or 1793 double density capable. If single density then some PCs FDC cannot do SD, some can. Allison From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue May 15 22:13:44 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 04:13:44 +0100 Subject: Harwell (was RE: A local computer history group for my area . ..) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F18@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Yes slight aberration of the brain. The building was called "The Atlas Computer Laboratory" but the system was ICL. One of my first jobs as a junior engineer (circa 1972) was to refurbish 4K core memory stores for an Elliot system. They were about three feet long with a Mullard Core stack in a box in the middle and plug in cards on either side. They used early transistors of the OC71 era (Yup -ve supply). I soon learned all about read, write and sense amplifiers and how the cores actually worked. As a final test I would put the store back in the system (Elliot 4100?) load a very complex FORTRAN program from paper tape ( it worked out handicaps for large racing yachts based on their dimensions) then a data tape. The answer came out on one of two IBM golfball printers (no keyboards). That's what I call classic computing as opposed to a classic computer! Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 15 May 2007 19:44 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Harwell (was RE: A local computer history group for my area . ..) > From: "Rod Smallwood" > > Well now let me see now I left School for College in 1964. My major > subjects were Industrial Electronics and Computing. > > We were taken to Harwell Research centre to see 'The' Computer. It was > an ICL 1900 series system. It took up three floors of a substantial > building. Input on the top floor (80col Cards and papertape). > Processing > and storage on the middle floor and output on the ground floor. Had to > be that way or the vibration from the line printers would have shaken > the building to pieces. > > I remember it was called Atlas and even had an operating system called > George III. So that's just over 40 years ago. In computer terms > certainly vintage if not veteran. Hi Rod, I think you have mixed up two different systems. The Ferranti Atlas (later ICT/ICL Atlas) was in a custom built building, I understand the CPU occupied two floors, and yes there was one at Harwell I've been told. I would expect that Harwell also had at least one ICT/ICL 1900, and that would indeed run the George 3 multi access system. I did my computer science degree at Queen Mary College (University of London) and we had a ICL 1905E, upgraded to a 1904S which ran George 2 batch processing and the Maximop multi access system. Later I used a 1906 (S?) at the Royal Aircraft Establishment and it used either George 3 or George 4, and I was relieved to find that all the Maximop commands worked on it. When I was in the sixth form we visited the computer centre at the NatWest tower - huge floors - IIRC, one floor had nothing but IBM CPUs (probably 370s - this was 1969) and other static electronics, one floor had all the storage - magnetic tapes, discs, and juke box like machines which picked up strips of magnetic tape. Another floor had the hard peripherals - card readers, line printers and a massive document reader with a curved 'retina' on top about 20 feet across where all the optical sensors were. Another floor had all the cheque reading machines, the operators were moaning about people stapling their cheques and the staples getting caught in the works. At that time a random 2% of the cheques were also processed manually for quality assurance purposes, and presumably to prevent fraud. That day was the first I heard of the fraction of a penny (or cent) scam, where all interest payments were rounded down and all the fractions of a penny credited to the programmer's account. The same day I visited the University of London's central computer centre (as opposed to the individual college's private ones). They had a CDC 7600 and one operator was using a terminal to send messages to chat up a girl operating one of the remote stations which fed the 7600 with punched card data and printed the results. A very early form of Internet chat room you might say. Roger Owner of a ICT 1301 built 1962 From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue May 15 22:50:39 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 04:50:39 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F19@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well I think I understand the list. But for clarity's sake here's the problem again. 1. I have a number of PDP-11/94's 2. The first three slots are Quad Qbus 3. The missing KDJ11-EB would have been in slot one 4. Slot two has a M9714 ALT PWR FOR KDJ11-E in it. 5 Slot three is empty. 6. Slot four is a Unibus slot and has a M8191 KTJ11-B Unibus controller in it 7 Slot five has a M7547 TUK50-BB Tape controller in it. 8. Slot's Six,seven and eight are empty 9. Slot nine has a M9302 (UNIBUS TERMINATOR) at one end and a M9713 (MIN. LOAD MODULE) at the other. "Your mission Mr Phelps (Should you accept it) is to replace the missing KDJ11-EB with the lowest cost plug in alternative that will run" The winner gets (for the cost of the shipping) a 11/94 system unit box as described above. Rod Smallwood PS Speed is not an issue here. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick Sent: 15 May 2007 19:24 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The Last of The Line On 5/15/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Anybody want to amend and add the module for the memory? > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_memory > > It also doesn't have columns to specify whether the boards work in > Qbus/Qbus backplanes or Q/CD backplanes without releasing magic smoke, > whether they have provision to use battery power, whether they have > options to disable the parity CSR, or support block-mode transfers. > I'd expect users to get the nitty-gritty from the relevant user guides > or handbooks. > > As always, additions and corrections are welcome. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-MSV1J-UG_001_May85.pdf MSV11-JB M8637-B 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 ONLY MSV11-JC M8637-C 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 ONLY MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 NOTE: Modules designated MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC may be used in the PDP-11/84 (UNIBUS) system only. Modules designated MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE may be used in both the PDP-11/84 and PDP-11/83 (Q-bus) systems. NOTE: MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC cannot perform Q-bus protocol. NOTE: Insertion of the MSV11-J in a Q-Q backplane my damage other components or the memory itself. The PMI bussing of the MSV11-J's CD connectors is not compatible with the +12V bussing on the Q-Q backplane. From cheri-post at web.de Wed May 16 02:24:32 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:24:32 +0200 Subject: My VAX 4000-200 died.... Message-ID: <1998983052@web.de> Hi all, my first VAX ever - died, unfortunately. During the last months, I experienced that the CPU just got stuck at some time, but I could not reproduce this error. Sometimes, it froze during or directly after the initialisation procedure, or later on after half an hour or an hour of work with VMS. A friend of mine thought of instable voltages caused by the power supply, so I swapped it with another one in order to check, if the supply was to blame. But it wasn't the case. I took out all the boards and left the CPU and some memory only, but it didn't get any better. After getting stuck, the CPU could only be reset switching the supply off and on again. And now, since last week, the CPU doesn't come up at all anymore. After switching on the power supply, the seven segment display shows an "F", nothing is printed on the terminal, and the halt-button has no function anymore (which was always the case when it got stuck). So I guess that my VAX died... Needless to say that these boards can't be repaired. As far as I know, no schematics were ever published and these big chips on the board are horrible to unsolder and solder, even if spare ones could be obtained (supposed that one knows, where the "problem is"). Did anybody on this list make similar experiences regarding VAXen dying that way (at least, I'm pretty sure that she's dead) ? Is there anything else I could check in order to save my VAX ? Thanks for any help. Regards, Pierre __________________________________________________________________________ Erweitern Sie FreeMail zu einem noch leistungsst?rkeren E-Mail-Postfach! Mehr Infos unter http://produkte.web.de/club/?mc=021131 From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed May 16 05:23:30 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 06:23:30 -0400 Subject: My VAX 4000-200 died.... In-Reply-To: <1998983052@web.de> References: <1998983052@web.de> Message-ID: <20070516102330.D638EBA4405@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > my first VAX ever - died, unfortunately. During the last months, I experienced that the CPU just got stuck at some time, but I could not reproduce this error. > Sometimes, it froze during or directly after the initialisation procedure, or later on after half an hour or an hour of work with VMS. > A friend of mine thought of instable voltages caused by the power supply, so I swapped it with another one in order to check, if the supply was to blame. > But it wasn't the case. I took out all the boards and left the CPU and some memory only, but it didn't get any better. After getting stuck, the CPU could only be reset > switching the supply off and on again. > > And now, since last week, the CPU doesn't come up at all anymore. After switching on the power supply, the seven segment display shows an "F", > nothing is printed on the terminal, and the halt-button has no function anymore (which was always the case when it got stuck). So I guess that my VAX died... > Needless to say that these boards can't be repaired. As far as I know, no schematics were ever published and these big chips on the board are horrible to unsolder and solder, even > if spare ones could be obtained (supposed that one knows, where the "problem is"). What you write is "not inconsistent" with failing to get DCOK from the power supplies. DCOK is a signal indicating that the power supplies are all up and operating. The CPU refuses to even begin its self test until DCOK is asserted. BA213's (a popular cabinet for your CPU) have two supplies and the light has to be on on both of them. Otherwise you see exactly the symptom you have (CPU stuck at "F"). It's not impossible for a CPU board to fail and get stuck at "F", but in my experience, 99 times out of 100 it's because there's no DCOK on the backplane. And 9 times out of 10 it's because the power supply is failing. They often go flaky and are hard to start, or go flaky and fail after getting warm, etc. It's also true that the power supplies need a certain minimum load... you may have had some boards in your backplane that had nothing except for resistors on them to provide the minimum load. Putting those back in won't hurt. Of course, spare KDA50 sets are just fine for sucking up DC power too! Tim. From cheri-post at web.de Wed May 16 07:21:16 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 14:21:16 +0200 Subject: My VAX 4000-200 died.... Message-ID: <1999463916@web.de> Hello Tim, > What you write is "not inconsistent" with failing to get DCOK from the > power supplies. DCOK is a signal indicating that the power supplies > are all up and operating. The CPU refuses to even begin its self test > until DCOK is asserted. Thanks alot for pointing out several things I forgot to mention. My VAX is housed in a BA430 enclosure. So there is only one power supply which provides the power to the system. Normally, when the green "DC OK" LED turns on, the DC voltages should be available and lie within the necessary voltage range for the CPU to work correctly. Now I don't know how reliable the control circuit is, regarding the detection of voltages lying outside of the specified range. Could it be possible that the DCOK LED lits while a voltage is not within the required tolerance ? > > BA213's (a popular cabinet for your CPU) have two supplies and the light > has to be on on both of them. Otherwise you see exactly the symptom > you have (CPU stuck at "F"). > > It's not impossible for a CPU board to fail and get stuck at "F", but > in my experience, 99 times out of 100 it's because there's no DCOK on the > backplane. And 9 times out of 10 it's because the power supply is > failing. They often go flaky and are hard to start, or go flaky and > fail after getting warm, etc. > Ok, in my case, having a BA430 chassis, both tested power supplies would have the same failure then. I tested both, and only one fits in the chassis at a time. On both supplies, the DCOK-LED turns on after powering up the VAX. But just to be sure, I should measure the voltages of the supply at the backplane. > It's also true that the power supplies need a certain minimum load... > you may have had some boards in your backplane that had nothing except > for resistors on them to provide the minimum load. Putting those > back in won't hurt. Of course, spare KDA50 sets are just fine for > sucking up DC power too! > A total of seven boards were plugged in, so I guess that the minimum load should be given. Thanks alot for your precious hints, Tim ! Regards, Pierre _______________________________________________________________ SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192 From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed May 16 03:43:27 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:43:27 +0100 Subject: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St ? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F1C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Very Interesting!!! 1. The console terminal is a Creed Model 75 Teleprinter ie Baudot Telex code not ASCII This may be a Bletchley Park legacy. The later electronic BP systems were designed to break teleprinter codes and hence the high speed tape readers and terminals were for telex code. You can just see the M75 reader/punch above the operators hand. 2. To the left of the operator are two high speed paper tape readers. 3. You can see the holes in the top of the desk where the tape went after the reader 4. The tape rewinder is on the corner of the other desk. 5. The two boxes on the right are the storage cases for the high speed readers or could be tape punches. 6. The row of horizontal drawers on the right of the desk are for rewound paper tapes. 7. The row of cabinets under the window is the electronics. 8. You needed a whole cabinet to hold 16K of core + PSU 9. The desk to the left appears to have some punched cards on it. But they look a bit big. 10. The drawers in the desk to the left look like card storage. 11. The desk to the left could be a punched card station but I have never seen one so am unsure. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline Sent: 15 May 2007 21:02 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St ? Here's a few obscure pics from the 1970's I believe take the picture link Pertec tape drive and a box with System 90 on it? and what else http://www.archivist.info/collection/searchv8.php?srcdata=title&srcprog= searchv8.php&searchv4page=1&errlev=0&searchstr=lucas+computer+lab Any information gratefully received as a treat here is an Elliott 803 at Lucas http://www.archivist.info/collection/searchv8.php?srcdata=title&srcprog= searchv8.php&searchv4page=1&errlev=0&searchstr=lucas+elliott Dave Caroline From gordon at gjcp.net Wed May 16 04:28:36 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 10:28:36 +0100 Subject: Fairchild MB8116E == 4116 ? In-Reply-To: <4649B479.24688.1B0C7DF0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000801c796a2$c0dbb100$4101a8c0@recorder> <4649B479.24688.1B0C7DF0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1179307716.2456.7.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 13:24 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > In particular, I recall playing around with a memory test that > gradually increased the interval between refresh until memory started > failing. I began to wonder if there was something wrong with my test > when some NEC uPD416 DRAMs went 15 seconds without refresh and > *still* retained data. Nothing wrong with the test--just good DRAM > design. I remember with the ZX Spectrums, if you powered them off and on again, quite often you could still see the screen contents quite clearly before the RAM test flattened it. Some RAMs seemed better than others for this - some would keep the image almost perfect for maybe five seconds, some wouldn't do it at all. I found you could spot which RAMs were likely to fail by seeing which pixel dropped out the most - work out where the black stripe was when it was working, and if the low 16K failed later that would be the first one to change! Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 16 06:19:38 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 07:19:38 -0400 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M Message-ID: <0JI400HGASS6THF6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 3.5" Altair CP/M > From: David Griffith > Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:33:55 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Tue, 15 May 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > >> I have a tarbell floppy controller card that has been rewired to access >> 3.5" disks using a standard PC 3.5" disk drive. >[snip] >> What could be missing? If the bitrate is fixed, then is CP/M not writing >> standard sectors? Rawread says "Address not found" and diskinfo says the >> drive is not ready. > >I take it you don't have access to a Unix machine? The dd command might >be able to fish out something more from that disk. Specifically, the >utility cpmtools is useful for writing to a variety of disk formats and is >easy to customize for new formats. > >From all I've read the controller is a a SD unit and may be running at either the 8" SD rate or possibly the 5.25" SD rate makig the disk at most 360k. That 360k format is NOT PC compatable. The OS used on the PC is not a factor as whatever you do required direct controll of the FDC even then some PCs will NOT do the slower SD data rate. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 16 06:13:42 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 07:13:42 -0400 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M Message-ID: <0JI400568SI9EH49@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 3.5" Altair CP/M > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:09:37 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 04:45 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote: >>On 5/15/07, Grant Stockly wrote: >>>I have a tarbell floppy controller card that has been rewired to access >>>3.5" disks using a standard PC 3.5" disk drive. I have 3 disks that the >>>Altair can boot off of and read, but my windows computer can't do anything >>>with them. I've tried rawread.exe and diskinfo.exe and they both choke on >>>the disk. I assumed that if a disk could be written with the standard 3.5" >>>disk drive on the tarbell card then it should also be read on the same >>>drive connected to a modern IBM compatible. >> >>Are you using a 1771 based SD Tarbell card, or a 1791/1793 based DD >>Tarbell card? That might make a difference. > >Its an MDL-1011D with an FD1771-B01. > >What's the deal with this chip? Is it formatting the the disk as 360k? the 1771 is single density only and yes. Also if the format program used didn't fully format the disk with all the marks (often done with 1771s) then it will be harder to read with a PC. Allison From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed May 16 07:41:33 2007 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:41:33 +0000 Subject: Problem reading CP/M floppy on a PC Message-ID: Dear All, Thanks for your helpful reples. On 15 May 2007 at 11:45, Chuck Guzis wrote: >It's entirely possible to fit 10x512 sectors per track using a 765- >type controller, though it's much easier if the IAM is left off and the >space gained used to expand the inter-sector gaps (you can do this with a >uPD 2765-type controller or any of the WD 17xx/27xx controllers. >>I think the Tuscan FDC uses a WD1771 controller... >Nope, the 1771 is restricted to FM only. Maybe a 179x or 1770/1772/1773 though. You're right, it has a FD1791 controller. >It's entirely possible that the drive used to create the diskettes was >somewhat out of alignment. You may have to "unalign" a drive to >successfully read these. This is more common than you might think. Yes, it could be. I tried a different PC last night, same problem as before. Using IMD (Image Disk) utility, and the analyse option, it would show a scrolling display with entries like: 0 7 20 0 for track 0, the 20 meaning that 20 sectors were found up to: 39 5 20 0 for track 39. Using D to read data, I could read track 0 OK, but with higher tracks (especially 10 or higher) then IMD gave errors like: Read error <1> No Addr Mark 2 Read error <2> No Addr Mark 3 etc up to sector 10. I came across this article: http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9644&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=5e43b68182a2501929ab5b9eb3bc0eca (Google for ["read sector" "splice points"]) which makes the valid point that floppies are often formated on one machine, and written to on another. As I can read track 0, and all the sector marks are found for the other tracks, but I can't read the data part of the sectors for tracks 1 to 39, I am guessing that the drive used to write the data was different to that used to format the floppy and write the system track. The above page talks about 'splice points' where the new data is written over existing data. (Another interesting glossary was found here: http://www.softpres.org/knowledge_base) >You didn't mention if you were using a 48tpi ("360K") drive to read these >or trying to get by on a 96tpi ("720K" or "1.2MB) drive. The former will >usually produce better results. I am using a 48tpi drive, an IBM badged Qumetrak 142 with belt drive ("That is the third worst drive I've dealt with" - Fred Cisin, Oct 2005), also tried a Techmate NPH-502. I have some Tandon TM-100s on various machines, I'll try one of these plus a 96tpi drive for luck. >If the first sector on the track is consistently missing (not always the >lowest-numbered; some systems skew the tracks for better performance), you >might be able to recover it by slowing the drive a bit to allow the first >sector IDAM to move outside of the 765 "blind spot" at the beginning of a >track (although the 765 formats a track with an IAM at the start, it never >reads it). Seems to be every sector past a certan track. BTW the disk is formated with sector skewing, starting from track 0 they are read as: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 9 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 7 8 9 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 2 3 4 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Luckily I have recently heard from two more Tuscan owners with CP/M boot disks, so hopefully they will have more joy. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed May 16 09:00:16 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 10:00:16 -0400 Subject: My VAX 4000-200 died.... In-Reply-To: <1998983052@web.de> References: <1998983052@web.de> Message-ID: On 5/16/07, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > > Hi all, > > my first VAX ever - died, unfortunately. During the last months, I > experienced that the CPU just got stuck at some time, but I could not > reproduce this error. > Sometimes, it froze during or directly after the initialisation procedure, > or later on after half an hour or an hour of work with VMS. > A friend of mine thought of instable voltages caused by the power supply, > so I swapped it with another one in order to check, if the supply was to > blame. > But it wasn't the case. I took out all the boards and left the CPU and > some memory only, but it didn't get any better. After getting stuck, the CPU > could only be reset > switching the supply off and on again. > > And now, since last week, the CPU doesn't come up at all anymore. After > switching on the power supply, the seven segment display shows an "F", > nothing is printed on the terminal, and the halt-button has no function > anymore (which was always the case when it got stuck). So I guess that my > VAX died... > Needless to say that these boards can't be repaired. As far as I know, no > schematics were ever published and these big chips on the board are horrible > to unsolder and solder, even > if spare ones could be obtained (supposed that one knows, where the > "problem is"). > > Did anybody on this list make similar experiences regarding VAXen dying > that way (at least, I'm pretty sure that she's dead) ? > Is there anything else I could check in order to save my VAX ? My vax 3900 randomly gave me "machine check 10" errors. Finally I bought another vax 3900 and swapped the CPU board, and the problem was fixed. vax, 9000 Thanks for any help. > > Regards, > Pierre > __________________________________________________________________________ > Erweitern Sie FreeMail zu einem noch leistungsst?rkeren E-Mail-Postfach! > Mehr Infos unter http://produkte.web.de/club/?mc=021131 > > > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed May 16 10:55:42 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:55:42 -0400 Subject: WAS: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0705151953j5300ab04if741ffb93fce54ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200705161555.l4GFto2g039726@keith.ezwind.net> On Wed, 16 May 2007 04:53:24 +0200, from at fu3.org wrote: >Nothing to apologize about :) >What is it based on; --any idea how "accurate" this is? "Based on", WoW that is a wide subject .... This project started out as a utility lookup.lsp I wrote some time back as a personal tool, it took a search string and feed it to a handful of search engines, and compiled the returns into a single tiny page I could look at on my cell phone. I used it to lookup the current "usage" of domain and product names as well as a prefetch search tool. The project took a turn in march when I decided to modify it to attempt to figure out the overall size of the known or at least indexed world of the internet. It been slowly evolving over time unideal early april when using lookup7 I discovered that the the 5 search engines I chose to track and use as my reference sources could be spell out YGAMS on my cell phone screen and YGAMS.COM had not only not been registered. The best part was that it had a "gamy" (the proposed name at the time) value of 0. Other than a few misspellings of YGAMES YGAMS had an internet present of Zip, nada, Zero... Too cool to pass up, so lookup.lsp got a face lift and YGAMS.COM was born. A conversation with a math guy, confirmed my math was as good, and I began to calculate and log the daily average size of the indexed world. Using this overall average I built a weighting system, which I apply to the results of each search, to produce the current YGAMS number. At that point YGAMS was text only and ran mostly on my cell phone. Upon returning from my annual trip into tax hell, I addressed the problems of charting YGAMS related info to my cell phone. I decided to try a pure HTML approach based on tables, I liked the idea that it did not require the generation or display of any image or file other than the pure HTML being generated and returned directly from the evaluation of a control lists. http://ygams.com/ygams.lsp?info was the first chart I started with. Followed in a few days by http://ygams.com/ygams.lsp?scores when I figured out how to stack backgrounds in a table cell. Early May, I set up a caching system and began generating what I will call the game charts I am playing with now. Which raises your second question ... >--any idea how "accurate" this is? I can say the math and logic is all mine. Every YGAMS goes through the same analysis process and is scaled based the same normalization and based on what I like to think of as the normalized size of the internet today. The resulting number is not as important as the relationship of theindex indicators used as daily references to each other. I was supprised just how much Yahoo Google Ask, MSN, and Search.com search results changed from day to day as the spiders drop and reindex several billion of pages a day between them. It is still a work in progress ... Bob Bradlee >2007/5/16, Bob Bradlee : >> OOPS .... MY Bad ! >> http://ygams.com/ygams.lsp?Switchtech is fixed now. >> I had rolled back some changes I made today, I was in a hurry and forgot to restore one of the include >> files that I had also changed. Function DoMtype's parameters had been changed from a list to a string >> between versions, thus the error message you were seeing. It looked and worked just fine here, untill I >> cleared my cookies, and then it blew it's cookies just like it did for every one new to the site. >> >> Bob >> >> On Wed, 16 May 2007 02:05:30 +0200, from at fu3.org wrote: >> >> >..nor SeaMonkey, which is Gecko-based also. (I mean; I get the same >> >output as parent..) >> >> >15 May 2007 16:57:44 -0700, Geoff Reed : >> >> Quoting Bob Bradlee : >> >> >> >> > I had not planned to sent that one untill I could edit it a bit :( >> >> > >> >> > Here is a link to a ygam chart I generated for that mutterings and it >> >> > includes >> >> > a link to the page. >> >> > >> >> > http://ygams.com/ygams.lsp?Switchtech >> >> > >> >> > Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> list expected in function dolist : pcist >> >> >> >> called from user defined function DoMtype >> >> >> >> doe it not like Firefox? >> >> >> >> >> From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 15 23:27:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 22:27:29 -0600 Subject: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St ? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F1C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F1C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <464A8831.5060405@jetnet.ab.ca> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Very Interesting!!! Unless like the mail reader I have *Inserts* CR LF so I paste the url so I don't get to view it. > 1. The console terminal is a Creed Model 75 Teleprinter ie > Baudot Telex code not ASCII > This may be a Bletchley Park legacy. I don't think you were ever meant to use the CONSOLE terminal on the early computers. > 8. You needed a whole cabinet to hold 16K of core + PSU But you could get 4K and CPU in a cabinet + PSU if you kept to paper tape as I/O. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed May 16 12:07:51 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 18:07:51 +0100 Subject: Fairchild MB8116E == 4116 ? In-Reply-To: <1179307716.2456.7.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <003601c797dc$bdb985c0$c901a8c0@uatempname> >I remember with the ZX Spectrums, if you powered them off and on again, DRAM is definitely not very D ... it can retain stuff over long periods of no power. Unless you actually need it to, of course! Antonio From ms at vaxcluster.de Wed May 16 12:23:52 2007 From: ms at vaxcluster.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 19:23:52 +0200 Subject: My VAX 4000-200 died.... In-Reply-To: <1999463916@web.de> References: <1999463916@web.de> Message-ID: <464B3E28.10107@vaxcluster.de> Pierre, since you're on web.de, i assume you are in Germany (or close...). I'm located in Reutlingen, so: Would it help if i sent you a known working KA660 CPU-Board to try it out? At least you could rule out other failures this way. Alternatively, i could "press" your CPU in my VAX 4200 to see what happens.... Greetings Michael (ms) Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Hello Tim, > >> What you write is "not inconsistent" with failing to get DCOK from the >> power supplies. DCOK is a signal indicating that the power supplies >> are all up and operating. The CPU refuses to even begin its self test >> until DCOK is asserted. > > Thanks alot for pointing out several things I forgot to mention. My VAX is housed in a BA430 enclosure. > So there is only one power supply which provides the power to the system. Normally, when the green > "DC OK" LED turns on, the DC voltages should be available and lie within the necessary voltage range for the CPU > to work correctly. Now I don't know how reliable the control circuit is, regarding the detection of voltages lying outside of > the specified range. Could it be possible that the DCOK LED lits while a voltage is not within the required tolerance ? > >> BA213's (a popular cabinet for your CPU) have two supplies and the light >> has to be on on both of them. Otherwise you see exactly the symptom >> you have (CPU stuck at "F"). >> >> It's not impossible for a CPU board to fail and get stuck at "F", but >> in my experience, 99 times out of 100 it's because there's no DCOK on the >> backplane. And 9 times out of 10 it's because the power supply is >> failing. They often go flaky and are hard to start, or go flaky and >> fail after getting warm, etc. >> > > Ok, in my case, having a BA430 chassis, both tested power supplies would have the same failure then. I tested both, and only > one fits in the chassis at a time. > On both supplies, the DCOK-LED turns on after powering up the VAX. But just to be sure, I should measure the > voltages of the supply at the backplane. > >> It's also true that the power supplies need a certain minimum load... >> you may have had some boards in your backplane that had nothing except >> for resistors on them to provide the minimum load. Putting those >> back in won't hurt. Of course, spare KDA50 sets are just fine for >> sucking up DC power too! >> > > A total of seven boards were plugged in, so I guess that the minimum load should be given. > Thanks alot for your precious hints, Tim ! > > Regards, > Pierre > _______________________________________________________________ > SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und > kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192 > -- Michael Schneider email: ms at vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de "Man muss nicht immer alles glauben was stimmt" From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed May 16 12:54:35 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 10:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 3420 tape systems on Dovebid In-Reply-To: <003601c797dc$bdb985c0$c901a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <966451.59136.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> With controllers, see: http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?ItemID=cno3183 There are others up for bid also. They are in Reading, PA, way too far away for me. Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 16:15:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 22:15:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: My VAX 4000-200 died.... In-Reply-To: <1998983052@web.de> from "Pierre Gebhardt" at May 16, 7 09:24:32 am Message-ID: > > Hi all, > > my first VAX ever - died, unfortunately. During the last months, I experi= > enced that the CPU just got stuck at some time, but I could not reproduce= > this error.=20 > Sometimes, it froze during or directly after the initialisation procedure= > , or later on after half an hour or an hour of work with VMS. > A friend of mine thought of instable voltages caused by the power supply,= > so I swapped it with another one in order to check, if the supply was to= > blame.=20 Have you actually _measured_ the power supply voltages? Or for that matter checked the ACLO/DCLO (Power OK) signals that I assume are genereated by the power supply. [...] > And now, since last week, the CPU doesn't come up at all anymore. After s= > witching on the power supply, the seven segment display shows an "F",=20 If this is like other DEC machines (PDP11s and VAXen), all bits of the LED output port are effectively set in hardware on a reset (giving you the 'F'). The processor then writes other values to said port. Given that you never get aything but the 'F', it would appear tht the processor isn't doing anything. But that doesn't necessarily mean one of the custom chiops has failed. [..] > Needless to say that these boards can't be repaired. As far as I know, no= > schematics were ever published and these big chips on the board are horr= > ible to unsolder and solder, even > if spare ones could be obtained (supposed that one knows, where the "pro= > blem is"). If it is a custom chip that's died, then (de)soldering it is the easy part of the repair ;-) But before you assume that, I really would check all the power supply voltages. And amke sure the ACLO/DCLO signals aren't atuck asserted. Can you trace out bits of the CPU board circuit to identify the clock source and reast? If so, it'd be worth checking those next. -tony From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed May 16 17:01:45 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 23:01:45 +0100 Subject: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St In-Reply-To: <200705161702.l4GH1Tbp071135@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705161702.l4GH1Tbp071135@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <378C7237-9E8C-444C-A43B-B70DEB99CFBA@microspot.co.uk> > Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:43:27 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Subject: RE: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St > > Very Interesting!!! > > 1. The console terminal is a Creed Model 75 Teleprinter ie > Baudot Telex code not ASCII > This may be a Bletchley Park legacy. > The later electronic BP systems were designed to break > teleprinter codes and hence the > high speed tape readers and terminals were for telex code. > You can just see the M75 reader/punch above the operators > hand. > > 2. To the left of the operator are two high speed paper tape > readers. Are these the 1000 character per second model or the 300 character per second model? I presume they are the slower 300 cps units as the 1000 cps Elliott version on my ICT 1301 needs a powered tape un- roller to feed it. It can still stop between characters even at that speed, but I understand from my old boss when I worked at Elliott's Rochester works that the older Elliott readers did not have the stop on character facility, so that our software always put four null characters after every carriage return line feed pair, and the reading software would always read a line of input at full speed before doing any heavy processing which might take longer than a character time. > > 3. You can see the holes in the top of the desk where the tape > went after the reader > > 4. The tape rewinder is on the corner of the other desk. > > 5. The two boxes on the right are the storage cases for the high > speed readers or could be tape punches. They are the acoustic cases for Teletype BRPE paper tape punches. 100 characters per second. You had to raise the cover to load new rolls of tape into the unit, then press the feed button on top of the unit as you pulled on the tape until it started feeding itself. Then you closed the cover and when it was ready the computer started punching and the tape fed out of the chrome lined hole on the left hand side. It looks like it fed into the two holes in the desk to the left of these units. My ICT 1301 has had one of these grafted onto it in the 1970s using a Vero board full of TTL logic which is housed within the paper tape reader cabinet. Interest interface between the plus 5 volt logic levels of TTL and the minus 6.3 volt logic levels of the discrete germanium transistor logic of the 1301. A slight cheat - the TTL ground is actually at -5 volts and the TTL's VCC is connected to the 1301's 0 volt earth level. This also means a TTL '1' is a 1301 '0' and vice-versa. The 1301 to TTL signals work fine with no special circuitry, but the TTL to 1301 need a transistor (GET872) to work correctly. > > 6. The row of horizontal drawers on the right of the desk are > for rewound paper tapes. > > 7. The row of cabinets under the window is the electronics. > > 8. You needed a whole cabinet to hold 16K of core + PSU > > 9. The desk to the left appears to have some punched cards on > it. But they look a bit big. > > 10. The drawers in the desk to the left look like card storage. > > 11. The desk to the left could be a punched card station but I > have > never seen one so am unsure. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed May 16 17:27:53 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 23:27:53 +0100 Subject: Harwell (was RE: A local computer history group for my area . ..) In-Reply-To: <200705161702.l4GH1Tbp071135@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705161702.l4GH1Tbp071135@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 04:13:44 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Subject: RE: Harwell (was RE: A local computer history group for my > area . ..) > > Yes slight aberration of the brain. The building was called "The Atlas > Computer Laboratory" but the system was ICL. Maybe it had gone by then, but there are photos on the web of the building when it housed a Ferranti Atlas. Specifically: http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/gallery/harwell/ slide8.htm or the view the whole collection of photos at http://www.chilton- computing.org.uk/gallery/home.htm > One of my first jobs as a junior engineer (circa 1972) was to > refurbish > 4K core memory stores for an Elliot system. What was involved in refurbishment? > They were about three feet long with a Mullard Core stack in a box in > the middle and plug in cards on either side. > They used early transistors of the OC71 era (Yup -ve supply). I soon > learned all about read, write and sense amplifiers and how the cores > actually worked. My 1301 has five core stores, each of 400(decimal) words x 50 bits (48 data + 2 parity). Three of the stores work perfectly after they have warmed up, but two of the stores are totally dead. We've tried everything, starting with the obvious - looking for a fault in the selection logic, but after replacing the same boards about five times with no effect (especially when the 'scope also says they're working properly), we had to started looking for a fault in each of the stores. But everything there looks OK too, at least measuring voltages they look OK, I don't possess a current probe and I'm not sure if I had one I'd be able to use it. > > As a final test I would put the store back in the system (Elliot > 4100?) > load a very complex FORTRAN program from paper tape ( it worked out > handicaps for large racing yachts based on their dimensions) then a > data > tape. The answer came out on one of two IBM golfball printers (no > keyboards). > > That's what I call classic computing as opposed to a classic computer! > > Rod Smallwood From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed May 16 18:21:12 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 01:21:12 +0200 Subject: Computer History WIki up Message-ID: <1179357672.7593.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> I'd like to announce the Computer History Wiki at http://toresbe.dreamhosters.com/wiki ! I realize that there has been some discussion previously about setting up a computer history wiki, and that Jay has decided against hosting one himself, favouring a knowledge base arrangement. I am involved in the Norwegian Computer History Society, and we have a MediaWiki website which we are very happy with. However, being a Norwegian organization, the page is... well, it's in Norwegian. I found myself really enjoying adding technical information, guides, etc, but I was very frustrated by the fact that the text would only reach a very limited audience, and only had a very limited potential for revision by others - at most, our audience consisted of Scandinavia. Recently I bought a very cheap hosting deal from Dreamhost, which so far has worked splendidly. I therefore decided to use this to set up an English computer history wiki and gauge the response. So far, this has been very encouraging - we are up to 80 articles now, and it's growing very fast. The chief difference between this wiki and Wikipedia is that this is not aiming to be an encyclopedia of formal defintion articles, but an information base for articles of all kinds - handy hints and tips, practical guides, tutorials, quick introductions, cheat sheets, advice, stories, you name it. My hope is that this page could become a resource for people on all ends of the classiccmp knowledge scale. The wiki is currently hosted on a temporary domain, since I did not want to spend my free domain (included in the hosting deal) if interest turned out to be minimal. Well, it hasn't, and I'm seriously considering registering a domain very soon. Currently, the wiki has a strong DEC minicomputer bias, because all three of the current active editors are DEC fans. With time, I hope this bias becomes less apparent, and that people will add information about micros, other minis, mainframes, peripherals, terminals, etc, etc. Again, the URL of the wiki is: http://toresbe.dreamhosters.com/wiki Regards, Tore Sinding Bekkedal From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 16 19:56:49 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 17:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer History WIki up In-Reply-To: <1179357672.7593.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> from "Tore Sinding Bekkedal" at May 17, 2007 01:21:12 AM Message-ID: <200705170056.l4H0unB9015994@onyx.spiritone.com> > The chief difference between this wiki and Wikipedia is that this is not > aiming to be an encyclopedia of formal defintion articles, but an > information base for articles of all kinds - handy hints and tips, > practical guides, tutorials, quick introductions, cheat sheets, advice, > stories, you name it. I'd say a good difference between this and Wikipedia is that it doesn't have to deal with the bizarre rules that I've seen hit some Wikipedia pages. I've observed a legitiment computer article trashed by some self important bozo with an ax to grind that insisted it wasn't a valid article and should be deleted. > Currently, the wiki has a strong DEC minicomputer bias, because all > three of the current active editors are DEC fans. With time, I hope this > bias becomes less apparent, and that people will add information about > micros, other minis, mainframes, peripherals, terminals, etc, etc. I see some interesting info in there, looks like a good start. Zane From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed May 16 21:23:49 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 22:23:49 -0400 Subject: Com-tran Ten Message-ID: Does anyone know what a Com-tran Ten is? I have a set of prints (over 30 pages) I pulled from my filing cabinet (while looking for Mac info for Teo and Jeff) which say they are a reprint by permission of Digiac Corporation. I tried doing some goggling but to no avail. Any ideas (or links)? Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 16 23:27:35 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 05:27:35 +0100 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. References: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com><4b7d63a40705141034i7fd41aa2h348335f05587e089@mail.gmail.com><310f50ab0705151020k1adbb4f8qa5f80b21c0d665b7@mail.gmail.com> <1179250515.4649ef531ca7d@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > although I don't remember the Z-80 being a clone of the 8085 >CPU like the author of that site claims. (or has my memory >gone faulty?) Nope, I'm pretty sure you're right there. As I remember it from back in the day, the design team at Intel who designed the 8080 wanted to produce a "Super 8080" which put right some of it's shortcomings (mainly the requirement for an external multi-phase clock generator chip and external latch to produce a number of control signals), but were refused by management types. Said design team, allegedly, then left en-masse to set up Zilog; and produced their "Super 8080" in the form of the Z80. Note that they also had to come up with their own assembly language mnemonics as Intel had copyrighted the 8080 mnemonics. The brain dead morons who were left at Intel then produced the 8085, and ultimately inflicted the mind-bogglingly prehistoric x86 architecture on an unsuspecting world.... :-( With the exception of the 8080 and i960, I firmly believe that Intel have done more to hold back the development of the microprocessor than anyone else! TTFN - Pete. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 23:56:31 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 00:56:31 -0400 Subject: A local computer history group for my area . . . In-Reply-To: <1179180891.20266.1.camel@elric> References: <200705121706.l4CH5nn1000622@dewey.classiccmp.org> , <511CB36E-430C-4AC4-886A-88349C573187@mac.com> <464599AB.7189.B03D00F@cclist.sydex.com> <4A7764A4-80B3-4ED6-8127-12BF339F49AC@neurotica.com> <1179141212.22724.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <1179180891.20266.1.camel@elric> Message-ID: <1B516083-EDFD-4162-8534-796FD777787E@neurotica.com> On May 14, 2007, at 6:14 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> Funny, I don't think my PDP-11 is *that* old. It seems to date from >>> around 1986. I can't call a computer that was built while I was >>> doing >>> my 'O' grades "old", I just can't... >> >> Well, I think a lot of us here are old farts...you're just an >> older fart than most! ;) > > Hm :-/ I'd have said I'm younger than, well, *some* anyway. Probably > about 1/3 of the way up the age range, at 33 Ahh ok, not such an old fart after all. ;) I've got you beat by five years. >> [dave dives for cover] >> >> What '11 hardware do you have, again? > > Old stuff? The aforementioned 11/73, a Microvax 3300, some Sanyo > CP/M86 > machine, an Osborne 1, a ZX Spectrum, some not-working Epson HX20s, > and > a couple of BBCs. Sounds like a good pile. My house is overflowing with PDP-11s (and a few PDP-8s and a PDP-10 for balance!) and I really need to find some time to repair some of the dead ones. My 11/34a doesn't like to boot; that's next on the list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 17 01:19:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 23:19:32 -0700 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com>, <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <464B9184.3133.D3585C@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2007 at 5:27, Ensor wrote: > The brain dead morons who were left at Intel then produced the 8085, and > ultimately inflicted the mind-bogglingly prehistoric x86 architecture on an > unsuspecting world.... :-( > > With the exception of the 8080 and i960, I firmly believe that Intel have > done more to hold back the development of the microprocessor than anyone > else! You forgot the 432, which was very revolutionary in design and contemporaneous with the 8086. Which shows you how far dramatic innovation will get you. No apologist for Intel, I think that context is important here. At the time that the 8086 (and 8088) was deployed, there was already a large body of x80 software (CP/M, WordStar, SuperCalc, etc.) that were largely written in assembly. The problem with building a product around any processor is what one does for software. With software already available for x80 platforms, and Intel (and others) offering automated translation of x80 code to x86 (and it generally worked well), Intel offered an attractive alternative. Add to that the fact that existing x80 peripherals would work just fine with the new processor and you have a winning combination. Indeed, long after the debut of the IBM PC, there were PC products that were largely composed of automatically translated x80 code. I really was a booster for the 68K--and programmed for it. But no one ever represented that there was a simple and straightforward way to translate x80 assembly to 68K code, nor was it clear if it was going to be simple to use x80 peripherals with the 68K. Zilog had trotted out the Z8000 at about the same time, but it wasn't clear if they were all that serious. I really liked the NS16032 architecture, but National at the time had a reputation to pulling the the rug out from under developers (SC/MP, PACE) without notice and being overly optimistic about release dates (In my case, "real soon now" was about 2 years between the time I got the marketing spiel about the 16032 and when they actually started to be manufactured in quantity). So you saw a dichotomy--existing CP/M applications that were run on the Kaypros and Osbornes made it into the 8086 world. The 68K tended to host the result of whole new development efforts--including Unix ports. Sometimes it seems that around 1983-84, you couldn't throw a stick without hitting a company that was doing another Unix port for the 68K. I don't really blame the guys in Boca Raton for choosing the 8088. There was software for it, but you keep costs down with an 8-bit bus and use commonly-available peripheral chips. Had the the 68K been chosen (and it was a strong rumor, particularly after the IBM 68K- based lab computer was announced before the 5150), it might never have been as successful. Cheers, Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 17 02:58:32 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 09:58:32 +0200 Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <484579.66742.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200705151427.02912.pat@computer-refuge.org> <484579.66742.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070517095832.22c9375a@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Tue, 15 May 2007 12:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I replaced a drive here at work that did just the same > thing - it requested a cleaning tape very frequently. Once I had that problem too. I did some tests and finaly came to the conclusion that the PSU in the external SCSI box was too weak for the DLT. It seems DLTs like to suck big peek currents. The PSU could not cope with this, voltage got instable and confused the DLT. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From blakespot at gmail.com Wed May 16 10:07:21 2007 From: blakespot at gmail.com (Blake Patterson) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:07:21 -0400 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b7d63a40705160807v5d36f215q80c62de5f650ba55@mail.gmail.com> On 5/14/07, from at fu3.org wrote: > - http://www.switchtech.us/PCmuseum.html > > This is "SWITCHTECH'S VIRTUAL PC MUSEUM," which is interesting unless > it's been posted here hundreds of times before.. ;) > Nice link. As a collector, I enjoy perusing others piles as well. :-) Let me offer these links of what I've gathered over the years: http://www.blakespot.com/list/ http://pix.blakespot.com/view/computers/ http://www.bytecellar.com/qtvr.html I hope someone enjoys. bp -- Heisenberg may have slept here. From velocite at gmail.com Thu May 17 01:34:15 2007 From: velocite at gmail.com (John Buck / Velocite) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 16:34:15 +1000 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival - OT Message-ID: <4ACBEB5B-D7E6-484F-8F45-C001AE53EEAA@gmail.com> I am writing an educational book about the invention of the videotape machine and subsequent evolution of nonlinear edit systems on desktop computers. In order to background the reader properly, I am including material on the development of not only the GUI by companies like Xerox but also microprocessors and PC's by companies and people like MOS, Motorola, DG, Intel, Faggin, De Castro, Chuck Peddle and Bill Mensche. I have tried without luck to contact Mr Peddle and wish to do so. I believe Mr Peddle will be attending, Vintage Computer Festival East 4.0 this June Maybe you are too? http://www.vintage.org/2007/east/ If you are going I am looking to convey my interest in making contact with him, to make sure the facts in my book are fair and accurate. I would love to attend but I am in Sydney, Australia. I am more than happy to give fair credit in the published work to ClassicCMP. Thanks John velocite (at) gmail dot com From wizard at voyager.net Thu May 17 04:29:48 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 05:29:48 -0400 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: <163489.45182.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <163489.45182.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1179394188.15558.104.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 23:19 +0100, Andrew Burton wrote: > I heard they used Amiga 4000's... or is that what you meant > with "hopped-up A2000's"?? > > I was a big fan of Babylon 5 in the early days (I liked Ivanova > (Claudia Christian)), . . . Oh, I see what you mean... Yikes. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From bqt at softjar.se Thu May 17 04:07:14 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 11:07:14 +0200 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <200705161702.l4GH1Tbq071135@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705161702.l4GH1Tbq071135@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <464C1B42.6070802@softjar.se> "Rod Smallwood" skrev: > Well I think I understand the list. > But for clarity's sake here's the problem again. > > 1. I have a number of PDP-11/94's > 2. The first three slots are Quad Qbus > 3. The missing KDJ11-EB would have been in slot one > 4. Slot two has a M9714 ALT PWR FOR KDJ11-E in it. > 5 Slot three is empty. > 6. Slot four is a Unibus slot and has a M8191 KTJ11-B Unibus controller > in it > 7 Slot five has a M7547 TUK50-BB Tape controller in it. > 8. Slot's Six,seven and eight are empty > 9. Slot nine has a M9302 (UNIBUS TERMINATOR) at one end and a M9713 > (MIN. LOAD MODULE) at the other. > > "Your mission Mr Phelps (Should you accept it) is to replace the missing > KDJ11-EB with the lowest cost plug in alternative that will run" > > The winner gets (for the cost of the shipping) a 11/94 system unit box > as described above. Sorry, but your options are very few. The first three slots of that backplane are not Q-bus, but a special adaptation of it for the PMI memory and nothing else. You cannot use Q-bus memory on it, and no other Q-bus options either (atleast according to the manuals, I haven't tried in real life. I could check out if any signals differ, if it were real important). Second, the Unibus adapter required some special signals from the CPU-board as well. Your options are basically the 11/8x and 11/9x CPU boards. No others will originate the signals for the Unibus adapter required. Memory wise only PMI memory boards will do. For an 11/94, all memory are on the CPU board, so for those, the two PMI slots should always be empty. To make the power supply happy, you normally have some bus loads on them. If you go for the 11/84 instead, you also need to find PMI memory boards. That's the CPU/memory part of your system. You then need to configure the Unibus correctly, which means you need unibus grant cards in theright place of all empty slots. You probably also want some disk controller in that system. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu May 17 05:28:20 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 11:28:20 +0100 Subject: Harwell (was RE: A local computer history group for my area. ..) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F22@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> >What was involved in refurbishment? Well its 35 years ago but I'll have a go. The store was made up of planes. Each was (I think) 64x64 cores. Wires ran Horizontally and Vertically through each core plus a sense wire that snaked through all the cores diagonally from one corner of the plane to the other. The cores could be magnetized in one direction or the other. It was driven by current pulses of differing magnitude depending on reading or writing. Reads came out on the sense wire as serial pulses of differing polarity to indicate 0 or 1 and you had to write the answer back each time. We had a test bench with power supplies and test boxes to write then read the store. The setting up consisted of setting the shape of the pulse amplifers output to a drawing we had. If it ran the read/write pattern ok for an hour it was a good one. If you had good electronics (ie a working board set and pulses present at the core box input)and no output you checked the date of manufacture of the core box. If it was still in warranty you went to he stores with it and said "Another one to go back to Mullard" and got a new one. If it was out of warranty you threw it out of the last window on the left (That's where the skip was) as you left the building to go and get a new one from the stores. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 16 May 2007 23:28 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Harwell (was RE: A local computer history group for my area. ..) > > Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 04:13:44 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Subject: RE: Harwell (was RE: A local computer history group for my > area . ..) > > Yes slight aberration of the brain. The building was called "The Atlas > Computer Laboratory" but the system was ICL. Maybe it had gone by then, but there are photos on the web of the building when it housed a Ferranti Atlas. Specifically: http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/gallery/harwell/ slide8.htm or the view the whole collection of photos at http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/gallery/home.htm > One of my first jobs as a junior engineer (circa 1972) was to > refurbish > 4K core memory stores for an Elliot system. What was involved in refurbishment? > They were about three feet long with a Mullard Core stack in a box in > the middle and plug in cards on either side. > They used early transistors of the OC71 era (Yup -ve supply). I soon > learned all about read, write and sense amplifiers and how the cores > actually worked. My 1301 has five core stores, each of 400(decimal) words x 50 bits (48 data + 2 parity). Three of the stores work perfectly after they have warmed up, but two of the stores are totally dead. We've tried everything, starting with the obvious - looking for a fault in the selection logic, but after replacing the same boards about five times with no effect (especially when the 'scope also says they're working properly), we had to started looking for a fault in each of the stores. But everything there looks OK too, at least measuring voltages they look OK, I don't possess a current probe and I'm not sure if I had one I'd be able to use it. > > As a final test I would put the store back in the system (Elliot > 4100?) > load a very complex FORTRAN program from paper tape ( it worked out > handicaps for large racing yachts based on their dimensions) then a > data > tape. The answer came out on one of two IBM golfball printers (no > keyboards). > > That's what I call classic computing as opposed to a classic computer! > > Rod Smallwood From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu May 17 06:15:08 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 07:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: General SCSI+DLT speed questions In-Reply-To: <20070517095832.22c9375a@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <200705151427.02912.pat@computer-refuge.org> <484579.66742.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070517095832.22c9375a@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2007, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 15 May 2007 12:53:49 -0700 (PDT) > Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> I replaced a drive here at work that did just the same >> thing - it requested a cleaning tape very frequently. > Once I had that problem too. I did some tests and finaly came to the > conclusion that the PSU in the external SCSI box was too weak for the > DLT. It seems DLTs like to suck big peek currents. The PSU could not > cope with this, voltage got instable and confused the DLT. Another thing to check: I've seen a couple of DLT7000 drives where the Molex power connector pins were slightly undersized, making poor contact with the supply cable. This can cause exactly the same symptoms. I ended up pinching the female pins on the cable with a small screwdriver to create a tighter fit. Solved the problem in my case. And, yes, current requirements for these drives are generally too high for external SCSI cases intended for hard disks or CD-ROMs. I cannabilized a mini ITX power supply to provide a heftier source in the last case I assembled. Also worth updating the firmware. All of mine were either HP or Compaq OEM units and both vendors offer Windows and Linux based diagnostic programs (with firmware uploader) available. At one point, I was able to find the "official" Quantum version, but it seems to have vanished from their web site. Steve -- From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 17 08:27:27 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 09:27:27 -0400 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <464B9184.3133.D3585C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com>, <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <464B9184.3133.D3585C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <464C583F.90403@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The brain dead morons who were left at Intel then produced the 8085, and >> ultimately inflicted the mind-bogglingly prehistoric x86 architecture on an >> unsuspecting world.... :-( >> >> With the exception of the 8080 and i960, I firmly believe that Intel have >> done more to hold back the development of the microprocessor than anyone >> else! > > You forgot the 432, which was very revolutionary in design and > contemporaneous with the 8086. Which shows you how far dramatic > innovation will get you. And the i860 and the i8051. Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 17 08:44:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 06:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... In-Reply-To: <1179394188.15558.104.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <970214.97384.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> O shut up w/Claudia Christian LOL LOL. look what was included in the auction: GSX-86 V1.0 Bin rx50 (1 diskette) - a library of graphics primitives, no? I have *this* for my APC III but never mussed with it. Optimizing C86 C Compiler v2.20J (3 diskettes) - ooh nice, no? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu May 17 10:38:41 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 11:38:41 -0400 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <464B9184.3133.D3585C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070517105248.0367e808@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: [good info snippety] >I really was a booster for the 68K--and programmed for it. But no >one ever represented that there was a simple and straightforward way >to translate x80 assembly to 68K code, nor was it clear if it was >going to be simple to use x80 peripherals with the 68K. That's not a fair comparison, tho - a fair comparison would be "a simple and straightforward way to translate 6800/6809 assembly to 68K code". Intel certainly didn't provide a 6800->x86 translator, did they? ;-) >I don't really blame the guys in Boca Raton for choosing the 8088. >There was software for it, but you keep costs down with an 8-bit bus >and use commonly-available peripheral chips. Had the the 68K been >chosen (and it was a strong rumor, particularly after the IBM 68K- >based lab computer was announced before the 5150), it might never >have been as successful. It would've - because the reason the PC was successful despite it's technological inferiority was due to it's being rammed [Microsoft Vista Style(TM)] of every major corporation that had IBM "big iron." After they were installed in most offices, the trickle-down effect of needing to work at home, so you had to have a compatible machine at home. Had IBM "invented" the Mac & MacOS and used the same "marketing strategy," we wouldn't have to worry about hating Vista & Bill Gates would still only be a millionaire. It really wouldn't have made a lot of difference to me - I'd have just spent my years whining about OS-9's superiority to MacOS instead of OS-9's superiority to MS-DOS/Winders. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 17 10:55:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 08:55:28 -0700 Subject: Problem reading CP/M floppy on a PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464C1880.2708.2E2A27D@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 May 2007 at 12:41, John S wrote: > Using D to read data, I could read track 0 OK, but with higher tracks > (especially 10 or higher) then IMD gave errors like: > > Read error <1> No Addr Mark 2 > Read error <2> No Addr Mark 3 > > etc up to sector 10. Then it doesn't sound like alignment or the usual suspects. It sounds very much as if the diskette was formatted (past the first cylinder) using a nonstandard DAM, which is supported by the WD 17xx controllers, but not the NEC 765-type. The standard convention is to use FB as a DAM or F8 as a DDAM. However, the WD chips can write DAM values of F8, F9, FA, FB, FC and FD. Anything other than FB or F8 will cause the NEC-based chips to choke. There's no easy workaround with PC hardware for this one. If a customer needs data interchange on a PC, we'll suggest that he format up a diskette on his PC using 22Disk, then copy the original to it and use the result for his transfers. You could use a Catweasel or any other edge-sampling type of FDC. Here in the shop, we have an ISA PC board set up with a WD controller. While this situation doesn't occur frequently, it does happen. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 17 11:10:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 09:10:55 -0700 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070517105248.0367e808@mail.30below.com> References: <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <464B9184.3133.D3585C@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070517105248.0367e808@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <464C1C1F.24276.2F0C770@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2007 at 11:38, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> That's not a fair comparison, tho - a fair comparison would be "a simple > and straightforward way to translate 6800/6809 assembly to 68K code". > > Intel certainly didn't provide a 6800->x86 translator, did they? ;-) No, but WordStar, DBASE II, Supercalc, etc. weren't written in 6800 code, were they? Were there ever any 6800-based "killer apps"? > It would've - because the reason the PC was successful despite it's > technological inferiority was due to it's being rammed [Microsoft Vista > Style(TM)] of every major corporation that had IBM "big iron." After they > were installed in most offices, the trickle-down effect of needing to work > at home, so you had to have a compatible machine at home. I don't think so--after the 5100, IBM was very gun-shy about "personal computers". Even with the PC, they were very cautious-- basically introducing an 8-bit machine long after the Kaypros and Osbornes had demonstrated that there was a market for them. > Had IBM "invented" the Mac & MacOS and used the same "marketing strategy," > we wouldn't have to worry about hating Vista & Bill Gates would still only > be a millionaire. Again, IBM being cautious instead of revolutionary. Judging by the reactions from the IBM sales offices when the PC came out, it was almost as if IBM was expecting it to flop. I suspect that they thought the initial market would be people with a cassette recorder and a TV set for input and output. Indeed, you couldn't expect to run much more than CP/M-86 or MS-DOS on a machine with a planar memory maxed out at 64K. When the PC was adopted wholesale by business, I don't think they came to terms with it very quickly (which might explain the Peanut). I thought the Mac was interesting when it came out--but I asked the Apple marketing guy point-blank at a trade show "You don't actually expect me to read that little screen, do you?" My eyes are terrible and at the outset I was using a 17" monitor on my PC. Personally, I think Apple over-emphasized the packaging and gave up too much on expandability. Yes, there were Radius add-on monitors for the Mac, but they cost more than a complete PC setup. That's where Apple lost me. "Cute" doesn't do anything for you if you can't read the screen. Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Thu May 17 11:13:52 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 11:13:52 -0500 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070517105248.0367e808@mail.30below.com> References: <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20070517105248.0367e808@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <464C7F40.8030804@pacbell.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: > > [good info snippety] > >> I really was a booster for the 68K--and programmed for it. But no >> one ever represented that there was a simple and straightforward way >> to translate x80 assembly to 68K code, nor was it clear if it was >> going to be simple to use x80 peripherals with the 68K. > > That's not a fair comparison, tho - a fair comparison would be "a simple > and straightforward way to translate 6800/6809 assembly to 68K code". > > Intel certainly didn't provide a 6800->x86 translator, did they? ;-) You missed Chuck's point. There was a TON of CP/M software in use already. Maybe from where you sit the 6809 was a hot property, but by comparison to CP/M it was a drop in the bucket (I know, I know, cp/m sucks compared to OS/9, but that is irrelevant here). By having a way to port CP/M apps to the x86, there was an instant, large software base. Had intel somehow managed to make a 6809->68K translator, it wouldn't have helped sell the putative 68k PC. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu May 17 08:24:47 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 14:24:47 +0100 Subject: Harwell (was RE: A local computer history group for my area. ..) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F23@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Having had a look at the slides I now have it straight. It was the Alas I saw when at college and the ICL system when I worked just round the corner at RRD. If you had anything to do with Harwell RRD would have been familiar to you. I built experimental rigs and interfaced them to PDP-8's. The science guys would run them whilst the particular reactor (Dido or Pluto) was operating and I would do the maintenance whilst they where on shutdown. Happy Days... I had a office/workshop at one end of a hut with windows on three sides. Taxi to and from work each day and one week in three to a sandwich course. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 16 May 2007 23:28 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Harwell (was RE: A local computer history group for my area. ..) > > Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 04:13:44 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Subject: RE: Harwell (was RE: A local computer history group for my > area . ..) > > Yes slight aberration of the brain. The building was called "The Atlas > Computer Laboratory" but the system was ICL. Maybe it had gone by then, but there are photos on the web of the building when it housed a Ferranti Atlas. Specifically: http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/gallery/harwell/ slide8.htm or the view the whole collection of photos at http://www.chilton- computing.org.uk/gallery/home.htm > One of my first jobs as a junior engineer (circa 1972) was to > refurbish > 4K core memory stores for an Elliot system. What was involved in refurbishment? > They were about three feet long with a Mullard Core stack in a box in > the middle and plug in cards on either side. > They used early transistors of the OC71 era (Yup -ve supply). I soon > learned all about read, write and sense amplifiers and how the cores > actually worked. My 1301 has five core stores, each of 400(decimal) words x 50 bits (48 data + 2 parity). Three of the stores work perfectly after they have warmed up, but two of the stores are totally dead. We've tried everything, starting with the obvious - looking for a fault in the selection logic, but after replacing the same boards about five times with no effect (especially when the 'scope also says they're working properly), we had to started looking for a fault in each of the stores. But everything there looks OK too, at least measuring voltages they look OK, I don't possess a current probe and I'm not sure if I had one I'd be able to use it. > > As a final test I would put the store back in the system (Elliot > 4100?) > load a very complex FORTRAN program from paper tape ( it worked out > handicaps for large racing yachts based on their dimensions) then a > data > tape. The answer came out on one of two IBM golfball printers (no > keyboards). > > That's what I call classic computing as opposed to a classic computer! > > Rod Smallwood From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu May 17 09:16:05 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 15:16:05 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F24@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Now that makes a lot more sense. So PMI memory choice is: (2 Max) MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 The CPU choice is: Module Type Speed RAM ROM LTC SLU ------ ---- ----- --- --- --- --- M8190 KDJ11-B M8190-AD KDJ11-BA 18 M8190-AB KDJ11-BB 15 0 Y Yes 2 M8190-AC KDJ11-BD M8190-AZ KDJ11-BF 18 0 Y Yes 2 So..... 1. Plug in one or two memory cards. 2. Plug in a CPU card 3. Insert Bus Grant cards (Which end of the slot?) 4. Insert in Slot nine a M9302 UNIBUS TERMINATOR and a M9713 MIN. LOAD MODULE 5. Now we would have: Slot 1 M8190-Ax KDJ11-Bx 11/83 - 11/84 CPU Card Slot 2 M8637-X MSV11-Jx PMI Memory Slot 3 M8637-X MSV11-Jx PMI Memory Slot 4 M8191 KTJ11-B Unibus controller Slot 5 M7547 TUK50-BB Tape controller (Bus grant as well?) Slot 7 G7273 NPG and BUS Grant / Double Grant Slot 8 G7273 NPG and BUS Grant / Double Grant Slot 9 M9302 UNIBUS TERMINATOR Slot 9 M9713 MIN. LOAD MODULE 6. Connect up a terminal (I have several 420's) to the SLU connector. 7. Connect a TK50 drive (Which I have) to its controller. 8. Check for correct boot proms on the CPU card. 9. Switch on. Wait for smoke to clear. Look for output on the terminal. 10. Insert a bootable tape. (Which I don't have yet) All those in favor of this config say Aye! All those against email me quick, before I do anything dangerous!! Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 17 May 2007 10:07 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: Rod Smallwood Subject: Re: The Last of The Line "Rod Smallwood" skrev: > Well I think I understand the list. > But for clarity's sake here's the problem again. > > 1. I have a number of PDP-11/94's > 2. The first three slots are Quad Qbus 3. The missing KDJ11-EB would > have been in slot one 4. Slot two has a M9714 ALT PWR FOR KDJ11-E in > it. > 5 Slot three is empty. > 6. Slot four is a Unibus slot and has a M8191 KTJ11-B Unibus > controller in it > 7 Slot five has a M7547 TUK50-BB Tape controller in it. > 8. Slot's Six,seven and eight are empty 9. Slot nine has a M9302 > (UNIBUS TERMINATOR) at one end and a M9713 (MIN. LOAD MODULE) at the > other. > > "Your mission Mr Phelps (Should you accept it) is to replace the > missing KDJ11-EB with the lowest cost plug in alternative that will run" > > The winner gets (for the cost of the shipping) a 11/94 system unit box > as described above. Sorry, but your options are very few. The first three slots of that backplane are not Q-bus, but a special adaptation of it for the PMI memory and nothing else. You cannot use Q-bus memory on it, and no other Q-bus options either (atleast according to the manuals, I haven't tried in real life. I could check out if any signals differ, if it were real important). Second, the Unibus adapter required some special signals from the CPU-board as well. Your options are basically the 11/8x and 11/9x CPU boards. No others will originate the signals for the Unibus adapter required. Memory wise only PMI memory boards will do. For an 11/94, all memory are on the CPU board, so for those, the two PMI slots should always be empty. To make the power supply happy, you normally have some bus loads on them. If you go for the 11/84 instead, you also need to find PMI memory boards. That's the CPU/memory part of your system. You then need to configure the Unibus correctly, which means you need unibus grant cards in theright place of all empty slots. You probably also want some disk controller in that system. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rkaumeier at earthlink.net Thu May 17 14:16:59 2007 From: rkaumeier at earthlink.net (Rick Kaumeier) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 13:16:59 -0600 (GMT-06:00) Subject: Com-tran Ten Message-ID: <21032665.1179429419206.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Robert Borsuk wrote: >Does anyone know what a Com-tran Ten is? I have a set of prints >(over 30 pages) I pulled from my filing cabinet (while looking for >Mac info for Teo and Jeff) which say they are a reprint by permission >of Digiac Corporation. >I tried doing some goggling but to no avail. > >Any ideas (or links)? > >Rob I used a Com-tran Ten computer trainer while attending the US Navy's Advanced First Term Avionics (AFTA) school in Millington, Tennessee in 1980. Our classroom time on it was pretty limited - a week or two, at most. I vaguely recall that it was used to teach a smattering of machine language and digital circuit fault analysis & troubleshooting. That's about all I remember, and unfortunately I lost most of the tech pubs I had kept from those days in a move several years ago. If anyone else on the list attended tech school in Millington during that era, perhaps you can answer a question I've wondered about for a while. The Navy was experimenting with computer graded programmed instruction in the early 80s, and the machine that processed the Scantron forms would print out a line or two of remedial info or "attaboys" on each test report. Unfortunately, we never did get to see "Jim-Jim", the machine which processed our grades. Does anyone know what kind of hardware Jim-Jim was? -Rick Kaumeier From jclang at notms.net Thu May 17 15:34:59 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 16:34:59 -0400 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F24@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F24@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <464CBC73.4080404@notms.net> Rod Smallwood wrote: >Now that makes a lot more sense. > >So PMI memory choice is: (2 Max) > >MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 >MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 > > >The CPU choice is: > >Module Type Speed RAM ROM LTC SLU >------ ---- ----- --- --- --- --- >M8190 KDJ11-B >M8190-AD KDJ11-BA 18 >M8190-AB KDJ11-BB 15 0 Y Yes >2 >M8190-AC KDJ11-BD >M8190-AZ KDJ11-BF 18 0 Y Yes >2 > >So..... > >1. Plug in one or two memory cards. > >2. Plug in a CPU card > >3. Insert Bus Grant cards (Which end of the slot?) > >4. Insert in Slot nine a M9302 UNIBUS TERMINATOR and a M9713 MIN. LOAD >MODULE > >5. Now we would have: > > Slot 1 M8190-Ax KDJ11-Bx 11/83 - 11/84 CPU Card > Slot 2 M8637-X MSV11-Jx PMI Memory > Slot 3 M8637-X MSV11-Jx PMI Memory > Slot 4 M8191 KTJ11-B Unibus controller > Slot 5 M7547 TUK50-BB Tape controller (Bus grant as >well?) > Slot 7 G7273 NPG and BUS Grant >/ Double Grant > Slot 8 G7273 NPG and BUS Grant >/ Double Grant > Slot 9 M9302 UNIBUS TERMINATOR > Slot 9 M9713 MIN. LOAD MODULE > > >6. Connect up a terminal (I have several 420's) to the SLU connector. > >7. Connect a TK50 drive (Which I have) to its controller. > >8. Check for correct boot proms on the CPU card. > >9. Switch on. Wait for smoke to clear. Look for output on the terminal. > >10. Insert a bootable tape. (Which I don't have yet) > > >All those in favor of this config say Aye! >All those against email me quick, before I do anything dangerous!! > >Rod Smallwood > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist >Sent: 17 May 2007 10:07 >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Cc: Rod Smallwood >Subject: Re: The Last of The Line > >"Rod Smallwood" skrev: > > > >>Well I think I understand the list. >>But for clarity's sake here's the problem again. >> >>1. I have a number of PDP-11/94's >>2. The first three slots are Quad Qbus 3. The missing KDJ11-EB would >>have been in slot one 4. Slot two has a M9714 ALT PWR FOR KDJ11-E in >>it. >>5 Slot three is empty. >>6. Slot four is a Unibus slot and has a M8191 KTJ11-B Unibus >>controller in it >>7 Slot five has a M7547 TUK50-BB Tape controller in it. >>8. Slot's Six,seven and eight are empty 9. Slot nine has a M9302 >>(UNIBUS TERMINATOR) at one end and a M9713 (MIN. LOAD MODULE) at the >>other. >> >>"Your mission Mr Phelps (Should you accept it) is to replace the >>missing KDJ11-EB with the lowest cost plug in alternative that will >> >> >run" > > >>The winner gets (for the cost of the shipping) a 11/94 system unit box >> >> > > > >>as described above. >> >> > >Sorry, but your options are very few. > >The first three slots of that backplane are not Q-bus, but a special >adaptation of it for the PMI memory and nothing else. You cannot use >Q-bus memory on it, and no other Q-bus options either (atleast according >to the manuals, I haven't tried in real life. I could check out if any >signals differ, if it were real important). > >Second, the Unibus adapter required some special signals from the >CPU-board as well. > >Your options are basically the 11/8x and 11/9x CPU boards. No others >will originate the signals for the Unibus adapter required. Memory wise >only PMI memory boards will do. > >For an 11/94, all memory are on the CPU board, so for those, the two PMI >slots should always be empty. >To make the power supply happy, you normally have some bus loads on >them. > >If you go for the 11/84 instead, you also need to find PMI memory >boards. > >That's the CPU/memory part of your system. You then need to configure >the Unibus correctly, which means you need unibus grant cards in >theright place of all empty slots. You probably also want some disk >controller in that system. > > Johnny > > > PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 joe lang From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu May 17 15:54:11 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 16:54:11 -0400 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <464C7F40.8030804@pacbell.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070517105248.0367e808@mail.30below.com> <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20070517105248.0367e808@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070517155456.04707f78@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Battle may have mentioned these words: >Roger Merchberger wrote: >>Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >>[good info snippety] >> >>>I really was a booster for the 68K--and programmed for it. But no >>>one ever represented that there was a simple and straightforward way >>>to translate x80 assembly to 68K code, nor was it clear if it was >>>going to be simple to use x80 peripherals with the 68K. >>That's not a fair comparison, tho - a fair comparison would be "a simple >>and straightforward way to translate 6800/6809 assembly to 68K code". >>Intel certainly didn't provide a 6800->x86 translator, did they? ;-) > >You missed Chuck's point. Not completely; but I seem to be viewing this thread in a very different manner than others here, and that might be due to my skewed view of reality, as it were... ;-) > There was a TON of CP/M software in use already. Maybe from where you > sit the 6809 was a hot property, but by comparison to CP/M it was a drop > in the bucket (I know, I know, cp/m sucks compared to OS/9, but that is > irrelevant here). My main point for that part of the thread is that making a source-code translator from different processor families that would be even "mostly successful" would be at least 1, probably 2 orders of magnitude more difficult, IMHO, and would probably have never existed, even if it were possible. Cross compilers or no, installed software base or no, the PC as a home or personal platform wasn't popular in the slightest until the PC attained "critical mass" in the business world and it started making sense to have a compatible platform at home... and IMHO, that wouldn't have happened if IBM hadn't forced all their bigger shops to migrate their desktop machines to PCs. When I was in college ('85 until I quit in '88), *it didn't pay* to own a PC. Most of my classes utilized either 1) time on the System/36, 2) time on a Heathkit 3400A trainer (with source assembled on an HP 64000 machine with a 6800 pod) or if you were in the robotics classes, in the Apple ][ lab. IMHO, The PC didn't become ubiquitous until the above happened, and IMHO, it doesn't matter what CPU it was based on.... IMHO. >By having a way to port CP/M apps to the x86, there was an instant, large >software base. Had intel somehow managed to make a 6809->68K translator, >it wouldn't have helped sell the putative 68k PC. Very true, but what I'm saying is had IBM settled on the 68K, built the software base for it, and once it hit critical mass for reasons I stated above, it still would have become the dominant platform. Maybe not as quickly or completely, but it would've still happened... and had that happened without MicroSoft as "the only player in town" I think computing as a whole would be much farther ahead than it is now. This from a guy who's particularly big fan of their much older products. [[ Did I mention IMHO? ;-) ]] So who's gonna buy a wholly offtopic yet o-so-kewl new Amiga when they're out? ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 17 16:24:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 14:24:39 -0700 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070517155456.04707f78@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070517105248.0367e808@mail.30below.com>, <464C7F40.8030804@pacbell.net>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070517155456.04707f78@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <464C65A7.23868.410031C@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2007 at 16:54, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Cross compilers or no, installed software base or no, the PC as a home or > personal platform wasn't popular in the slightest until the PC attained > "critical mass" in the business world and it started making sense to have a > compatible platform at home... and IMHO, that wouldn't have happened if IBM > hadn't forced all their bigger shops to migrate their desktop machines to PCs. I'm not entirely sure I follow your line of reasoning. Certainly, I'd need to tell the 81-year old fellow who's sent his magnum opus on 300 DSDD 5.25" diskettes for conversion this week. He generated them not with one, but three Kaypro 2's over the years. What there wasn't in the pre-PC world was a lot of uniformity between manufacturers. Quite a number ran the same software base, but it didn't do a whole lot of good when your friend was using Multitech system and you were using an Osborne, even though you both were running WordStar. Writing decent games across the various platforms (which really pushed the IBM PC along in the world) was next to impossible. I'd guess that there were only two real "killer" apps in the x80 days- -word processing and spreadsheets. I'm not sure that database apps really came into their own until hard disks became readily and cheaply available. Yet, even after the PC made its appearance, there were still doubts. Certainly, x80 machines still were being introduced (that Amstrad PCW in my office comes from what, 1985?). My friends with other 8 bit CP/M boxes were pretty slow to move to the PC, but one thing does seem to be true--they overwhelmingly moved to the PC and not to the Mac. WordStar on the PC was pretty much the same as WordStar on a Z80. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 17 16:37:30 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 17:37:30 -0400 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070517155456.04707f78@mail.30below.com> References: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com> <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20070517105248.0367e808@mail.30below.com> <464C7F40.8030804@pacbell.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20070517155456.04707f78@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 5/17/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: > My main point for that part of the thread is that making a source-code > translator from different processor families that would be even "mostly > successful" would be at least 1, probably 2 orders of magnitude more > difficult, IMHO, and would probably have never existed, even if it were > possible. I will agree that the specific case of 8080->68000 would be difficult, owing to the differences in their fundamental architecture, but I can't agree to the general case that one can't write a translator from one family to another. At Software Results, before I started there, the initial HASPBOX line of products was all written in MACRO-11 because the underlying comms hardware was 100% DEC (either an 11/04 or 11/23, depending on the year it was made). When SRC moved from a PDP-11 OEM arrangement to a self-designed 3rd-party 68000-based single board (the COMBOARD-I), my predecessors used TECO to mung the code from MACRO-11 to 68000 assembler. I am not claiming that the process did not require any manual fixup, but all the heavy lifting was done by editor macros, not even a dedicated app that might claim to "understand" both architectures. I would call that effort "mostly successful" from a commercial standpoint at least. One can argue that the PDP-11 and the 68000 share some underlying design philosophies, but they are certainly not in the same processor family. > So who's gonna buy a wholly offtopic yet o-so-kewl new Amiga when they're > out? ;-) Um... not I. Too pricey and not Amiga-y enough. -ethan From bqt at softjar.se Thu May 17 15:51:06 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 22:51:06 +0200 Subject: he Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <200705171707.l4HH6L5c085658@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705171707.l4HH6L5c085658@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <464CC03A.3060406@softjar.se> "Rod Smallwood" skrev: > Now that makes a lot more sense. > > So PMI memory choice is: (2 Max) > > MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 > MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 Correct. > The CPU choice is: > > Module Type Speed RAM ROM LTC SLU > ------ ---- ----- --- --- --- --- > M8190 KDJ11-B > M8190-AD KDJ11-BA 18 > M8190-AB KDJ11-BB 15 0 Y Yes > 2 > M8190-AC KDJ11-BD > M8190-AZ KDJ11-BF 18 0 Y Yes > 2 You need to check out if all of these really works in an 11/84. I don't think they all do. Some had hardware bugs that meant they only work in the 11/83 configuration. > So..... > > 1. Plug in one or two memory cards. Yes. > 2. Plug in a CPU card Yes. > 3. Insert Bus Grant cards (Which end of the slot?) The bus grant goes into the middle slots. There are two models. One really small one, which is only one connector high. They should go into the fourth slot from the top if my memory serves me right. In this case, you also need to make sure the NPG lines are are connected. This is done by a DIP-switch block on the backplane. One switch per slot. It should be visible if you look down into the cage. The other bus grand card is two connectors high, and also carry the NPG line, in which case you don't need to worry about the DIP-switches. > 4. Insert in Slot nine a M9302 UNIBUS TERMINATOR and a M9713 MIN. LOAD > MODULE Yes. > 5. Now we would have: > > Slot 1 M8190-Ax KDJ11-Bx 11/83 - 11/84 CPU Card > Slot 2 M8637-X MSV11-Jx PMI Memory > Slot 3 M8637-X MSV11-Jx PMI Memory > Slot 4 M8191 KTJ11-B Unibus controller > Slot 5 M7547 TUK50-BB Tape controller (Bus grant as > well?) > Slot 7 G7273 NPG and BUS Grant > / Double Grant > Slot 8 G7273 NPG and BUS Grant > / Double Grant > Slot 9 M9302 UNIBUS TERMINATOR > Slot 9 M9713 MIN. LOAD MODULE You only need one memory card, so it's not really neccesary to get two. Also, no grant in the slot where you have the TUK50. But I'm missing a grant in slot 6. :-) > 6. Connect up a terminal (I have several 420's) to the SLU connector. Yes. > 7. Connect a TK50 drive (Which I have) to its controller. Yes. > 8. Check for correct boot proms on the CPU card. No need, normally. The 11/8x and 11/9x cards have nice large boot proms with all kind of boot routines on them, including booting from TMSCP. > 9. Switch on. Wait for smoke to clear. Look for output on the terminal. Yes. > 10. Insert a bootable tape. (Which I don't have yet) That would help if you don't feel like starting to write your own code. But for test purposes, not needed at all. > All those in favor of this config say Aye! > All those against email me quick, before I do anything dangerous!! If you're just interested in checking that the machine is working, skip the TUK50. Just make sure the unibus is "whole", and fire her up. The boot monitor of the 11/8x and 11/9x are real talkative, with lots of things that can be done without anything else, including running tests, and checking out the hardware. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From silent700 at gmail.com Thu May 17 17:41:46 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 18:41:46 -0400 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: References: <462D11A3.9000206@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <51ea77730705171541v16904baape07c01e2846ce9e1@mail.gmail.com> Hi all - if anyone's at Dayton (and has 'net access) or on their way, I'm checked in and got my vendor spot, which is #2839. Stop on by and say hello! -j From marvin at west.net Thu May 17 19:28:40 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 17:28:40 -0700 Subject: Dayton Hamvention Message-ID: <004501c798e3$7cf5f340$6801a8c0@ucsb863d4f8d19> I got my selling spot numbers today when I arrived in Dayton and they are 2913 and 2914. I don't have any classic computer stuff for sale, but if you get a chance, stop by and say Hi! Marvin, KE6HTS From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 17 19:33:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 17:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a few more items Message-ID: <391842.40410.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Microvax 2000 Hardware Information, slipcover ThinkC for Macintosh, Symantec User's Guide CP/M Assembly Language Programming, Barbier, Prentice Hall The Programmer's CP/M Handbook last 2 are hardcovers all the preceding a bit musty same terms as last bunch of crap also have an Apple IIe that had been sitting out in the rain. Looks ok, powered up a few months ago, distorted image, but it powered up. prolly more items to follow... ____________________________________________________________________________________Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 17 19:45:34 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 01:45:34 +0100 Subject: he Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464CC03A.3060406@softjar.se> References: <200705171707.l4HH6L5c085658@dewey.classiccmp.org> <464CC03A.3060406@softjar.se> Message-ID: <464CF72E.4040607@dunnington.plus.com> On 17/05/2007 21:51, Johnny Billquist wrote: > "Rod Smallwood" skrev: >> Module Type Speed RAM ROM LTC SLU >> ------ ---- ----- --- --- --- --- >> M8190 KDJ11-B >> M8190-AD KDJ11-BA 18 >> M8190-AB KDJ11-BB 15 0 Y Yes >> 2 >> M8190-AC KDJ11-BD >> M8190-AZ KDJ11-BF 18 0 Y Yes >> 2 > > You need to check out if all of these really works in an 11/84. I don't > think they all do. Some had hardware bugs that meant they only work in > the 11/83 configuration. Are you sure about that? Early ones had hardware bugs that prevent them working with an FPJ11 but I never heard of one not working in an 11/84. In fact the buggy ones were often found in 11/84s. On the other hand there are some PMI memories that only work in one machine flavour, but the opposite way round to what you wrote: the MSV11-JB and -JC only work in 11/84s; their ASICs aren't compatible with QBus systems. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 17 22:04:47 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore sx64 parts Message-ID: Does anyone know of a place that has parts for a Commodore SX 64? (in particular, keyboard and cable) -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu May 17 22:47:05 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 23:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Kaypro CP/M 2.2U1 In-Reply-To: <1179357672.7593.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1179357672.7593.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Does anyone have a copy of Kaypro CP/M 2.2U1 that they could image? I just acquired a Kaypro 1 with ROM 81-478 and I believe this is the CP/M version needed for this ROM. None of the archive sites have this particular version. Thanks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 17 23:56:28 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 21:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore sx64 parts In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "May 17, 7 08:04:47 pm" Message-ID: <200705180456.l4I4uSYP005168@floodgap.com> > Does anyone know of a place that has parts for a Commodore SX 64? (in > particular, keyboard and cable) As far as the keyboard goes, good luck. That's very difficult to run across, apart from buying a bung unit. The cable can be made with a straight-thru DB-25, although some work is needed to get it to fit into the aperture on the SX itself. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- ASK ME ABOUT MY VOW OF SILENCE!!!! ----------------------------------------- From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu May 17 19:38:47 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 01:38:47 +0100 Subject: he Last of The Line Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F2E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Roger that!! >The other bus grand card is two connectors high, and also carry the NPG line, in which case you don't need to worry about the DIP-switches. These I have so where do they go? Thanks for the kind assistance Jonny. There now follows a general request for: One M8190-Ax KDJ11-Bx 11/84 version One/Two M8637-D or -E MSV11-Jx 11/84 version. Anybody having or knowing the whereabouts of the above modules please email me at: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 17 May 2007 21:51 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; Rod Smallwood Subject: Re: he Last of The Line "Rod Smallwood" skrev: > Now that makes a lot more sense. > > So PMI memory choice is: (2 Max) > > MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 > MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 Correct. > The CPU choice is: > > Module Type Speed RAM ROM LTC SLU > ------ ---- ----- --- --- --- --- > M8190 KDJ11-B > M8190-AD KDJ11-BA 18 > M8190-AB KDJ11-BB 15 0 Y Yes > 2 > M8190-AC KDJ11-BD > M8190-AZ KDJ11-BF 18 0 Y Yes > 2 You need to check out if all of these really works in an 11/84. I don't think they all do. Some had hardware bugs that meant they only work in the 11/83 configuration. > So..... > > 1. Plug in one or two memory cards. Yes. > 2. Plug in a CPU card Yes. > 3. Insert Bus Grant cards (Which end of the slot?) The bus grant goes into the middle slots. There are two models. One really small one, which is only one connector high. They should go into the fourth slot from the top if my memory serves me right. In this case, you also need to make sure the NPG lines are are connected. This is done by a DIP-switch block on the backplane. One switch per slot. It should be visible if you look down into the cage. The other bus grand card is two connectors high, and also carry the NPG line, in which case you don't need to worry about the DIP-switches. > 4. Insert in Slot nine a M9302 UNIBUS TERMINATOR and a M9713 MIN. LOAD > MODULE Yes. > 5. Now we would have: > > Slot 1 M8190-Ax KDJ11-Bx 11/83 - 11/84 CPU Card > Slot 2 M8637-X MSV11-Jx PMI Memory > Slot 3 M8637-X MSV11-Jx PMI Memory > Slot 4 M8191 KTJ11-B Unibus controller > Slot 5 M7547 TUK50-BB Tape controller (Bus grant as > well?) > Slot 7 G7273 NPG and BUS Grant > / Double Grant > Slot 8 G7273 NPG and BUS Grant > / Double Grant > Slot 9 M9302 UNIBUS TERMINATOR > Slot 9 M9713 MIN. LOAD MODULE You only need one memory card, so it's not really neccesary to get two. Also, no grant in the slot where you have the TUK50. But I'm missing a grant in slot 6. :-) > 6. Connect up a terminal (I have several 420's) to the SLU connector. Yes. > 7. Connect a TK50 drive (Which I have) to its controller. Yes. > 8. Check for correct boot proms on the CPU card. No need, normally. The 11/8x and 11/9x cards have nice large boot proms with all kind of boot routines on them, including booting from TMSCP. > 9. Switch on. Wait for smoke to clear. Look for output on the terminal. Yes. > 10. Insert a bootable tape. (Which I don't have yet) That would help if you don't feel like starting to write your own code. But for test purposes, not needed at all. > All those in favor of this config say Aye! > All those against email me quick, before I do anything dangerous!! If you're just interested in checking that the machine is working, skip the TUK50. Just make sure the unibus is "whole", and fire her up. The boot monitor of the 11/8x and 11/9x are real talkative, with lots of things that can be done without anything else, including running tests, and checking out the hardware. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu May 17 19:51:10 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 01:51:10 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F2F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> OK we have a change >PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 >joe lang Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of joe lang Sent: 17 May 2007 21:35 To: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: The Last of The Line Rod Smallwood wrote: >Now that makes a lot more sense. > >So PMI memory choice is: (2 Max) > >MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 >MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 > > >The CPU choice is: > >Module Type Speed RAM ROM LTC SLU >------ ---- ----- --- --- --- --- >M8190 KDJ11-B >M8190-AD KDJ11-BA 18 >M8190-AB KDJ11-BB 15 0 Y Yes >2 >M8190-AC KDJ11-BD >M8190-AZ KDJ11-BF 18 0 Y Yes >2 > >So..... > >1. Plug in one or two memory cards. > >2. Plug in a CPU card > >3. Insert Bus Grant cards (Which end of the slot?) > >4. Insert in Slot nine a M9302 UNIBUS TERMINATOR and a M9713 MIN. LOAD >MODULE > >5. Now we would have: > > Slot 1 M8190-Ax KDJ11-Bx 11/83 - 11/84 CPU Card > Slot 2 M8637-X MSV11-Jx PMI Memory > Slot 3 M8637-X MSV11-Jx PMI Memory > Slot 4 M8191 KTJ11-B Unibus controller > Slot 5 M7547 TUK50-BB Tape controller (Bus grant as >well?) > Slot 7 G7273 NPG and BUS Grant >/ Double Grant > Slot 8 G7273 NPG and BUS Grant >/ Double Grant > Slot 9 M9302 UNIBUS TERMINATOR > Slot 9 M9713 MIN. LOAD MODULE > > >6. Connect up a terminal (I have several 420's) to the SLU connector. > >7. Connect a TK50 drive (Which I have) to its controller. > >8. Check for correct boot proms on the CPU card. > >9. Switch on. Wait for smoke to clear. Look for output on the terminal. > >10. Insert a bootable tape. (Which I don't have yet) > > >All those in favor of this config say Aye! >All those against email me quick, before I do anything dangerous!! > >Rod Smallwood > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist >Sent: 17 May 2007 10:07 >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Cc: Rod Smallwood >Subject: Re: The Last of The Line > >"Rod Smallwood" skrev: > > > >>Well I think I understand the list. >>But for clarity's sake here's the problem again. >> >>1. I have a number of PDP-11/94's >>2. The first three slots are Quad Qbus 3. The missing KDJ11-EB would >>have been in slot one 4. Slot two has a M9714 ALT PWR FOR KDJ11-E in >>it. >>5 Slot three is empty. >>6. Slot four is a Unibus slot and has a M8191 KTJ11-B Unibus >>controller in it >>7 Slot five has a M7547 TUK50-BB Tape controller in it. >>8. Slot's Six,seven and eight are empty 9. Slot nine has a M9302 >>(UNIBUS TERMINATOR) at one end and a M9713 (MIN. LOAD MODULE) at the >>other. >> >>"Your mission Mr Phelps (Should you accept it) is to replace the >>missing KDJ11-EB with the lowest cost plug in alternative that will >> >> >run" > > >>The winner gets (for the cost of the shipping) a 11/94 system unit box >> >> > > > >>as described above. >> >> > >Sorry, but your options are very few. > >The first three slots of that backplane are not Q-bus, but a special >adaptation of it for the PMI memory and nothing else. You cannot use >Q-bus memory on it, and no other Q-bus options either (atleast >according to the manuals, I haven't tried in real life. I could check >out if any signals differ, if it were real important). > >Second, the Unibus adapter required some special signals from the >CPU-board as well. > >Your options are basically the 11/8x and 11/9x CPU boards. No others >will originate the signals for the Unibus adapter required. Memory wise >only PMI memory boards will do. > >For an 11/94, all memory are on the CPU board, so for those, the two >PMI slots should always be empty. >To make the power supply happy, you normally have some bus loads on >them. > >If you go for the 11/84 instead, you also need to find PMI memory >boards. > >That's the CPU/memory part of your system. You then need to configure >the Unibus correctly, which means you need unibus grant cards in >theright place of all empty slots. You probably also want some disk >controller in that system. > > Johnny > > > PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 joe lang From bear at typewritten.org Fri May 18 00:02:13 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 22:02:13 -0700 Subject: IBM PC "64-256K Memory Card" switch settings Message-ID: Can somebody send me the decoded switch settings for the 8-bit IBM "64-256KB MEMORY CD"? There are 8 switches, marked A16-A19, 64KB, 128KB, 190KB, and 256KB. I need to know how to set the switches for my 16-64KB 5150, so I can bring it up to 256KB and run PC-DOS 3.30. Thanks. ok bear From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 18 00:15:08 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 22:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore sx64 parts In-Reply-To: <200705180456.l4I4uSYP005168@floodgap.com> References: <200705180456.l4I4uSYP005168@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Does anyone know of a place that has parts for a Commodore SX 64? (in > > particular, keyboard and cable) > > As far as the keyboard goes, good luck. That's very difficult to run across, > apart from buying a bung unit. One of the latches has snapped off sometime before I acquired this unit. > The cable can be made with a straight-thru DB-25, although some work is > needed to get it to fit into the aperture on the SX itself. I stumbled upon a website describing how best to do it at http://dfpresource.org/SX_kybd.html -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 18 00:34:09 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 22:34:09 -0700 Subject: prices are crazy OT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi What is the deal with ebay prices lately. It is not just one but several sellers with starting prices way beyond the going market price for the item being sold. I've followed a few and the bidding ends with no buyer. What is going on? Why do they think an old PC keyboard is worth $50 to $75? What is the use of even waisting the time wo write up an auction. Do they think they are setting pricing or what?? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. It?s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07 From useddec at gmail.com Fri May 18 01:26:14 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 01:26:14 -0500 Subject: TEK 551 and 555 -off topic Message-ID: <624966d60705172326w36ebbf0dy71a14c343cb07f4@mail.gmail.com> I came across a good looking 551 and not so good looking 555 and some carts and plug ins. I have no interest in them. If anyone has any interest, contact me off list and I'll submit offers for you. The current owner does not ship, but I can try to. Paul Anderson From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri May 18 01:35:12 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 23:35:12 -0700 Subject: prices are crazy OT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464D4920.8090701@msm.umr.edu> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > What is the deal with ebay prices lately. > > What is the use of even waisting the time wo write up an auction. > Do they think they are setting pricing or what?? > Dwight If they are ebay store holders they can insert the listings much cheaper than individual people can, so they can insert the silly pricing to find a fish that doesn't know they are getting raped, but rather just switched off Antiques Roadshow and think that computers is the next big thing. Some are psychos, and don't take kindly to comments on their listings either. I can't see any other reason for it. And it clutters the searches for good listings. I usually search by useful vendor, which has had good listings in the past, and for a few items I keep canned searches for, and don't browse anymore, unless someone here points to a good auction. That is why I appreciate all your comments on what is on Ebay, as a lot of knowlegeable people here looking beats any of us looking on our owns both by catching good listings, and by not looking at a lot of crap. BTW the latest tips I jumped on was the note on Paper tape some time back, and an offlist pointer to IBM 026 (and 029 and 129) ribbons. They were really nice to find. They fit not only the keypunches, but flexowriters and other such older machines. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 18 01:51:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 23:51:42 -0700 Subject: IBM PC "64-256K Memory Card" switch settings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464CEA8E.20317.6172533@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2007 at 22:02, r.stricklin wrote: > Can somebody send me the decoded switch settings for the 8-bit IBM > "64-256KB MEMORY CD"? There are 8 switches, marked A16-A19, 64KB, > 128KB, 190KB, and 256KB. The switches are exactly what they say they are. Switch 1: On: A19 = 0; Off: A19 = 1 Switch 2: On: A18 = 0; Off: A18 = 1 Switch 3: On: A17 = 0; Off: A17 = 1 Switch 4: On: A16 = 0; Off: A16 = 1 Switch 5: On: 64KB installed on board Switch 6: On: 128KB installed on board Switch 7: On: 192KB installed on board Switch 8: On: 256KB installed on board Okay, so let's assume that you've got the original 5150 with 64KB of planar memory installed. Further, let's suppose you've populated the memory expansion card with 4 64K memory modules for a total of 256KB. You'd set the switches as follows: Switch 1 = On, Switch 2 = On, Switch 3 = On, Switch 4 = Off Switch 5 = Off, Switch 6 = Off, Switch 7 = Off, Switch 8 = On This would map the expansion RAM starting at address 1000:0 and it would extend up to (but not including) address 5000:0. This adapter requires the goofy 32-pin IBM 3-supply 64K modules. Neither the adapter nor the modules are very common in my experience. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 18 02:56:14 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 02:56:14 -0500 Subject: prices are crazy OT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464D5C1E.2040307@yahoo.co.uk> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > What is the deal with ebay prices lately. It is not just one but > several sellers with starting prices way beyond the going market > price for the item being sold. Since when has ebay ever followed the rest of the planet when it comes to pricing, though? It's not representative of pricing everywhere and never has been. > Do they think they are setting pricing or what?? I suspect one puts up something at a stupid price, and if it happens to sell then others start selling in the same price range fairly quickly, and then that new price becomes the ebay going rate for that item. In other words, yes - but only for ebay. From bear at typewritten.org Fri May 18 03:41:31 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 01:41:31 -0700 Subject: IBM PC "64-256K Memory Card" switch settings In-Reply-To: <464CEA8E.20317.6172533@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464CEA8E.20317.6172533@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On May 17, 2007, at 11:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The switches are exactly what they say they are. > > Switch 1: On: A19 = 0; Off: A19 = 1 > Switch 2: On: A18 = 0; Off: A18 = 1 > Switch 3: On: A17 = 0; Off: A17 = 1 > Switch 4: On: A16 = 0; Off: A16 = 1 > Switch 5: On: 64KB installed on board > Switch 6: On: 128KB installed on board > Switch 7: On: 192KB installed on board > Switch 8: On: 256KB installed on board Ok, I wasn't sure whether switches 5-8 were for the memory on the board, or the memory on the planar, and that every one of the boards I already have are set up with bogus switch configurations (like, on off on on on off on off, and off on on on on on off off). No wonder I was confused. > Okay, so let's assume that you've got the original 5150 with 64KB of > planar memory installed. Further, let's suppose you've populated the > memory expansion card with 4 64K memory modules for a total of 256KB. > You'd set the switches as follows: > > Switch 1 = On, Switch 2 = On, Switch 3 = On, Switch 4 = Off > Switch 5 = Off, Switch 6 = Off, Switch 7 = Off, Switch 8 = On Then it follows that for 64 KB on the planar and 192 KB on the card, it'd go on on on off off off on off. Right? And then I set the switches on the planar as if it were a 256 KB 5150 (SW1 x x off off x x x x / SW2 on off off on on off off off). > This adapter requires the goofy 32-pin IBM 3-supply 64K modules. > Neither the adapter nor the modules are very common in my experience. I've got four or five of them with varying degrees of memory installed, so there's another datapoint for you. Thanks, Chuck. For now, I discovered I had one TECMAR All-In-One card with 192 KB which was already set up correctly in another 64 KB 5150 (which has some problems with its floppy disk drives) so I borrowed the card. I'll give it a shot with your settings and see what happens. Some of my DRAM chips may be bad. This is all in an effort to IPL my 5364 S/36 PC for the first time, FWIW. ok bear From cc at corti-net.de Fri May 18 03:45:21 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:45:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TEK 551 and 555 -off topic In-Reply-To: <624966d60705172326w36ebbf0dy71a14c343cb07f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <624966d60705172326w36ebbf0dy71a14c343cb07f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 May 2007, Paul Anderson wrote: > I came across a good looking 551 and not so good looking 555 and some carts > and plug ins. I have no interest in them. If anyone has any interest, > contact me off list and I'll submit offers for you. The current owner does > not ship, but I can try to. I think these Tek scopes aren't off topic at all. We use a Tek 555 regularly at out museum to repair/align our computers. RK05 head alignments and LGP-30 repairs are better done with old Tek scopes than with modern digitizing scopes, at least that's my experience. Although we are a computer museum, we started to collect/rescue old measurement equipment that is related to computers, i.e. scopes, logic analyzers, DMMs, tube testers and so on. For example, we use a Funke RPG4/3 for testing the tubes in our LGP-30s. Christian From gpearce at curiousgroup.com Fri May 18 04:11:54 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.com (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:11:54 +0100 Subject: Offtopic-ish: Classiccmpers in Yorkshire? Message-ID: <1179479514.12752.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Hi folks, I'm going down to the Citro?n Car Club rally in Wetherby this weekend. I wondered if any classiccmpers fancied meeting up at some point. ISTR there's a few in that part of the world... Gordon From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 18 09:32:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 08:32:05 -0600 Subject: prices are crazy OT In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 18 May 2007 02:56:14 -0500. <464D5C1E.2040307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: The price on ebay is only representative of market prices if an item sells. What an item is listed for is not a market price, but an asking price and lots of people ask too much. Furthermore, I don't consider an auction with only 1 bidder to have a representative price. Mutiple bids an multiple bidders and we're starting to talk a market price, but with one bidder you have no idea if its an idiot buyer or just a bargain. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 18 09:42:03 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:42:03 -0400 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464CBC73.4080404@notms.net> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F24@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <464CBC73.4080404@notms.net> Message-ID: <464DBB3B.5090005@gmail.com> joe lang wrote: >> That's the CPU/memory part of your system. You then need to configure >> the Unibus correctly, which means you need unibus grant cards in >> theright place of all empty slots. You probably also want some disk >> controller in that system. >> > PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 PLEASE! Trim your replies. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at verizon.net Fri May 18 11:29:15 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:29:15 -0400 Subject: TEK 551 and 555 -off topic In-Reply-To: References: <624966d60705172326w36ebbf0dy71a14c343cb07f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200705181229.15444.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 18 May 2007 04:45, Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 18 May 2007, Paul Anderson wrote: > > I came across a good looking 551 and not so good looking 555 and some > > carts and plug ins. I have no interest in them. If anyone has any > > interest, contact me off list and I'll submit offers for you. The current > > owner does not ship, but I can try to. > > I think these Tek scopes aren't off topic at all. We use a Tek 555 > regularly at out museum to repair/align our computers. RK05 head > alignments and LGP-30 repairs are better done with old Tek scopes than > with modern digitizing scopes, at least that's my experience. > Although we are a computer museum, we started to collect/rescue old > measurement equipment that is related to computers, i.e. scopes, logic > analyzers, DMMs, tube testers and so on. For example, we use a Funke > RPG4/3 for testing the tubes in our LGP-30s. Yahoo also has a "tekscopes" list that's about as active as this one, and well worth one's time if these instruments are of interest... I just acquired a 536 this past week, myself. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 18 11:34:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:34:32 -0600 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? Message-ID: I want to purchase this item from ebay 130113266639 and the seller quoted me this for shipping: "The total weight is 45kg! The cheapest freight I have found costs approx #200.00 (approx $400) with UPS. It would need to be shipped in 2 boxes. If you can find a cheaper shipping quote from London, UK, N10 3AB then you are welcome to arrange your own pickup by a delivery company from here if you win the auction." Any suggestions on a more cost effective way to ship this? I suspect the person got an air shipping quote and not something slower but less expensive. Any suggestions (URLs would be ideal) for better alternatives appreciated! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jim at photojim.ca Fri May 18 11:45:10 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:45:10 -0600 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? References: Message-ID: <01de01c7996b$e67bec60$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? > Any suggestions on a more cost effective way to ship this? I suspect > the person got an air shipping quote and not something slower but less > expensive. It recently cost me over $200 Canadian to ship a similar weight of magazines and books from west central Canada to southern Australia by surface mail. Check the Royal Mail website and get a rate for a surface parcel. That is likely to be your cheapest rate. That UPS rate is very likely a surface parcel too but courier rates, even for surface parcels, are more expensive than the mail when you are looking at overseas shipments, at least in my experience. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 18 12:07:11 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:07:11 -0600 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 18 May 2007 10:45:10 -0600. <01de01c7996b$e67bec60$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: In article <01de01c7996b$e67bec60$1802a8c0 at JIMM>, "Jim MacKenzie" writes: > Check the Royal Mail website and get a rate for a surface parcel. It seems I can only get rates for *mail* and not for parcels on their web site. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From robert at irrelevant.com Fri May 18 12:17:55 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:17:55 +0100 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f806cd70705181017w641241cbxd8725d6aa48609ab@mail.gmail.com> On 18/05/07, Richard wrote: > Any suggestions on a more cost effective way to ship this? I suspect > the person got an air shipping quote and not something slower but less > expensive. > First place I Iooked beats your ?200 - http://www.parcel2go.com/ - gives example prices of ?135 ($270) for up to 70Kg to the USA via FedEx. Looks like air, too. Not sure if they offre surface shipping but they have a calculator to get a more exact price, if you know the weight and parcel dimensions - most international shiping also uses a dimension based charging system so big but light items dont get away with it. (Why doesn't anybody make bubble wrap using helium to save postage..) From robert at irrelevant.com Fri May 18 12:26:52 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:26:52 +0100 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: References: <01de01c7996b$e67bec60$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705181026q67e630cfh5b7710337f1fbc44@mail.gmail.com> On 18/05/07, Richard wrote: > > In article <01de01c7996b$e67bec60$1802a8c0 at JIMM>, > "Jim MacKenzie" writes: > > > Check the Royal Mail website and get a rate for a surface parcel. > > It seems I can only get rates for *mail* and not for parcels on their > web site. Yup; royal mail only goes up to 2Kg; Parcelforce is their parcel division, but they will only do up to 30Kg, and I just did an example calc for 30Kg 50x50x50cm, which is cheapest ?145.90 ($290) and you might need two.... Rob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 18 12:42:00 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:42:00 +0100 Subject: Offtopic-ish: Classiccmpers in Yorkshire? In-Reply-To: <1179479514.12752.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: On 18/5/07 10:11, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > Hi folks, > I'm going down to the Citro?n Car Club rally in Wetherby this weekend. > I wondered if any classiccmpers fancied meeting up at some point. ISTR > there's a few in that part of the world... As you know, I used to be not far from there, and tomorrow I'll be flying past in both directions in a Big Van as I collect my non-museum stuff from my now ex's house. Curses, and egads. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 18 12:49:49 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:49:49 +0100 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70705181026q67e630cfh5b7710337f1fbc44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18/5/07 18:26, "Rob" wrote: > On 18/05/07, Richard wrote: >> >> In article <01de01c7996b$e67bec60$1802a8c0 at JIMM>, >> "Jim MacKenzie" writes: >> >>> Check the Royal Mail website and get a rate for a surface parcel. >> >> It seems I can only get rates for *mail* and not for parcels on their >> web site. > > Yup; royal mail only goes up to 2Kg; Parcelforce is their parcel > division, but they will only do up to 30Kg, and I just did an example > calc for 30Kg 50x50x50cm, which is cheapest ?145.90 ($290) and you > might need two.... I had a nightmare shipping the Alpha 3000-300s I offered on here a couple of months ago. ParcelFarce were the cheapest but even then I ended up packing and repacking the boxes several times to get the weight down. In the end I had 2 boxes of about 24 and 17 kilos each, total cost ukp98. Getting stuff from the US is going to be fun now that USPS have canned their economy surface shipping service......(according to folk on the tekscopes mailing list anyhoo) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 18 13:22:13 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group shipments was Re: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <295104.38840.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> it occurred to me if there's a bunch of stuff in the UK that us Yanks want, and contrariwise if there's a bunch of stuff here that Red Coats want LOL LOL, couldn't we arrange to have a big crate of stuff shipped together to save? It's worth considering. Of course something like that has to be planned in advance. Maybe we should start a trans-pond want/have list...and go from there? ____________________________________________________________________________________Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 18 13:25:45 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 14:25:45 -0400 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: References: <2f806cd70705181026q67e630cfh5b7710337f1fbc44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Getting stuff from the US is going to be fun now that USPS have canned their > economy surface shipping service......(according to folk on the tekscopes > mailing list anyhoo) I ship quite a few large things to Europe and Asia, mainly radios, and I am sort of happy to see the surface rate go away. Most of my overseas customers want airmail anyway, even if pricey. Very few had the patience to wait 6 weeks for stuff. Apparently the time lost in transit was worth more than the extra money - less time to fool around with the new toys. Some folks insisted on surface rate, even though I warned about the six week (or longer) wait, the rough handling surface parcels received, and the greater risk of loss. Even with the warnings, I received plenty of complaints that their package was not at their doorstop in three weeks. -- Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 18 13:36:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT & T UNIX pc's Message-ID: <861604.31087.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> I have a 7300. I've come to learn a bit about the 3B1, which could be considered the same thing (?). I have a load of disks and docs for the 7300?. Unfortunately they were all stored improperly and are worthless. Being I already have the media (and can prove it) I'd like to have working images of these disks. Anyone have a clue? My hard drive does work, but is a bit flakey maybe :( The thing is a pitn to open up :{ I'd be very interested to hear from humans who are knowledgeable of these units, and more so by those who are currently playing with them. ____________________________________________________________________________________Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 18 13:50:10 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 14:50:10 -0400 Subject: group shipments was Re: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: <295104.38840.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <295104.38840.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > it occurred to me if there's a bunch of stuff in the > UK that us Yanks want, and contrariwise if there's a > bunch of stuff here that Red Coats want LOL LOL, > couldn't we arrange to have a big crate of stuff > shipped together to save? It's worth considering. Of > course something like that has to be planned in > advance. > Maybe we should start a trans-pond want/have > list...and go from there? The Japanese are way ahead of us - they have had shipping brokers that cater to very small niches for years. Some guys just ship old radios, others hifi gear or vintage guitars, and so forth. There are also similar European organizations that cater to old military vehicles crossing the Atlantic. -- Will From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri May 18 13:54:23 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 13:54:23 -0500 Subject: AT & T UNIX pc's Message-ID: <20070518185423.JJPK8247.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > I have a 7300. I've come to learn a bit about the 3B1, > which could be considered the same thing (?). Pretty much. Architecturally, they're the same. The usual distinction is the 3b1 has a "hump" to accomodate a physically larger disk drive. There has been a suggestion, though debated, that the 3b1 also has a beefier PS. > I have a load of disks and docs for the 7300?. > Unfortunately they were all stored improperly and are > worthless. Being I already have the media (and can > prove it) I'd like to have working images of these > disks. Anyone have a clue? That's a good question. Because they contained UNIX SYS V R2, most everyone was pretty careful about throwing around copies. So I don't know of any online images of them. Your best bet might be to find someone who has a set they'll send you, or perhaps a set they've backed up. In general, the first place to look is Peter da Silva's page: http://unixpc/taronga.com > My hard drive does work, but is a bit flakey maybe :( There's a classic issue of corrosion on the PS connector. That might be part of your problem. > The thing is a pitn to open up :{ It gets easier with practice. > I'd be very interested to hear from humans who are > knowledgeable of these units, and more so by those who > are currently playing with them. I used to do quite a lot with them, but haven't fired one up in probably 5 years. I used to maintain the archive that Peter maintains now. BLS From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 18 14:00:22 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group shipments was Re: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <785810.66725.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > > it occurred to me if there's a bunch of stuff in > the > > UK that us Yanks want, and contrariwise if there's > a > > bunch of stuff here that Red Coats want LOL LOL, > > couldn't we arrange to have a big crate of stuff > > shipped together to save? It's worth considering. > Of > > course something like that has to be planned in > > advance. > > Maybe we should start a trans-pond want/have > > list...and go from there? > > The Japanese are way ahead of us - they have had > shipping brokers that > cater to very small niches for years. Some guys just > ship old radios, > others hifi gear or vintage guitars, and so forth. > There are also > similar European organizations that cater to old > military vehicles > crossing the Atlantic. Ok...but there doesn't seem to *yet* be an organization for vintage computer gear. Maybe this is the start of something. And what I wouldn't do to get my hands on certain Japanese specific models... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From rtellason at verizon.net Fri May 18 14:02:01 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 15:02:01 -0400 Subject: group shipments was Re: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: References: <295104.38840.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200705181502.01377.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 18 May 2007 14:50, William Donzelli wrote: > > it occurred to me if there's a bunch of stuff in the UK that us Yanks > > want, and contrariwise if there's a bunch of stuff here that Red Coats > > want LOL LOL, couldn't we arrange to have a big crate of stuff > > shipped together to save? It's worth considering. Of course something like > > that has to be planned in advance. Maybe we should start a trans-pond > > want/have list...and go from there? > > The Japanese are way ahead of us - they have had shipping brokers that > cater to very small niches for years. Some guys just ship old radios, > others hifi gear or vintage guitars, and so forth. There are also > similar European organizations that cater to old military vehicles > crossing the Atlantic. Punching "shipping broker" into google comes back with a bit under 2 million hits... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri May 18 14:42:38 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:42:38 -0700 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F2F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F2F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90705181242y593c81bcv3fb77072b6499d6e@mail.gmail.com> On 5/17/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > OK we have a change > > >PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 > >joe lang > > Rod > >From my understanding of this after looking at various manuals this is true for an 11/73 or 11/83 with an H9872 backplane in a BA23 box, but not for an 11/84. Figure 8-6 in EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf shows a PDP-11/84-A backplane with the MDM M7677 in the MDM slot, the KDJ11-BF M8190 in slot 1, a MSV11-JB/JC M8637-BA/CA in slot 2, and a MLM load module M7556 in slot 3. Not clear to me if the MLM in this case could be replaced by a second MSV11-J. The 11/94 backplane shown in figure 1-2 in EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf shows a KDJ11-E M8981 in slot 1, an APS module M7914 in slot 2, and slot 3 empty. Does anyone know for certain that this backplane it compatible with MSV11-J modules, and if so in which slots they would go? From gtoal at gtoal.com Fri May 18 16:09:59 2007 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 16:09:59 -0500 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? Message-ID: Try an actual shipping company, the kind that load big wooden pallettes onto ships. I used one when I emigrated to the US 12 years ago and was surprised how reasonable it was, and I had *many* times more than just 45Kg... Only drawback, you often have to pick up from their docks yourself or you'll be charged a disproportionate delivery fee for the last 10 miles, with the driver expecting a serious tip for carrying the goods in. G From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 18 04:55:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 03:55:34 -0600 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464D7816.3060101@jetnet.ab.ca> Graham Toal wrote: > Only drawback, you often have to pick up from their docks yourself or > you'll be charged a disproportionate delivery fee for the last 10 > miles, with the driver expecting a serious tip for carrying the goods > in. I wonder if you just get a big bottle, and cast your item into the ocean. :) Let's not forget shipping by sea can take several months. PS. I was looking at IMP and thinking it compiles into 8K (words). I wonder why all the new compliers want to take 8 Meg? From gordon at gjcp.net Fri May 18 14:43:59 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 20:43:59 +0100 Subject: group shipments was Re: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: <295104.38840.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <295104.38840.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1179517439.19989.5.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 11:22 -0700, Chris M wrote: > Maybe we should start a trans-pond want/have > list...and go from there? Does anyone on the list have a boat? Gordon From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri May 18 17:29:40 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:29:40 -0400 Subject: group shipments was Re: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: <1179517439.19989.5.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200705182229.l4IMTl54013906@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 18 May 2007 20:43:59 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 11:22 -0700, Chris M wrote: >> Maybe we should start a trans-pond want/have >> list...and go from there? >Does anyone on the list have a boat? more likely access to a private jet ... Ducking back under my rock :) Bob From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 18 17:31:10 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 16:31:10 -0600 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 18 May 2007 16:09:59 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Graham Toal" writes: > Try an actual shipping company, the kind that load big wooden > pallettes onto ships. I used one when I emigrated to the US 12 years > ago and was surprised how reasonable it was, and I had *many* times > more than just 45Kg... This is probably more trouble than its worth. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 18 17:39:39 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:39:39 -0400 Subject: AT & T UNIX pc's In-Reply-To: <861604.31087.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <861604.31087.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On May 18, 2007, at 2:36 PM, Chris M wrote: > I have a 7300. I've come to learn a bit about the 3B1, > which could be considered the same thing (?). Yup, nearly identical...the biggest difference is the "hump" under the monitor that allows a 3B1 to accept a full-height drive. Contrary to nomenclature, the 3B1 bears neither resemblance nor lineage to any other member of the 3B family. > I have a load of disks and docs for the 7300?. > Unfortunately they were all stored improperly and are > worthless. Being I already have the media (and can > prove it) I'd like to have working images of these > disks. Anyone have a clue? > My hard drive does work, but is a bit flakey maybe :( > The thing is a pitn to open up :{ > I'd be very interested to hear from humans who are > knowledgeable of these units, and more so by those who > are currently playing with them. Well I'm not currently playing with them, and I haven't in a few years (but I will once more of my new house is arranged properly), but I've used them extensively, and I used to sell and repair them when they were current. If you do find a repository of disk images, I'd be interested in having copies of them. The 7300/3B1 is a great design, done by Convergent...a full (for the time) UNIX SysVr2 implementation with a GUI in a very small desktop machine, in ~1986! The first ones that were shipped had 512KB of RAM and a 10MB hard drive. Disk space was tight, but it was workable. The graphics are 720x348 monochrome (same as Hercules on PCs), and the GUI (called "ua", User Agent) is easily configurable with text files. There was an Ethernet card available for it...Wollongong wrote the IP stack, but it was terribly unstable and crashed the whole machine frequently. Damn fun machines, I must say. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri May 18 18:17:47 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 19:17:47 -0400 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F24@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F24@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <464E341B.5030707@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Now that makes a lot more sense. > >So PMI memory choice is: (2 Max) > >MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 >MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 > Jerome Fine replies: I am not absolutely positive, BUT the probability is VERY high that the above two PMI memory boards are ONLY for the Qbus. I believe that you must use either the MSV11-JB or the MSV11-JC within the PDP-11/84 system. It is probably confusing, but the CPU is the KDJ11-BF which is used in BOTH the PDP-11/83 (which I have and the memory used is the MSV11-JD or the MSV11-JE) and the PDP-11/84 which you have. If you can find a KDJ11-BF along with two MSV11-JC PMI memory boards, the cost will likely be much less than a PDP-11/94 CPU. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 18 18:01:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 00:01:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: TEK 551 and 555 -off topic In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at May 18, 7 10:45:21 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 18 May 2007, Paul Anderson wrote: > > I came across a good looking 551 and not so good looking 555 and some carts > > and plug ins. I have no interest in them. If anyone has any interest, > > contact me off list and I'll submit offers for you. The current owner does > > not ship, but I can try to. > > I think these Tek scopes aren't off topic at all. We use a Tek 555 > regularly at out museum to repair/align our computers. RK05 head My workshop runs on old test gear too, apart from the LogicDart (and that, acutally, is 10 years old now). Basically, I have the choice between new and popr quality or old and good quality (I can't afford new, good qaulity instruments). Th specs on paper might be about the same, but I'll bet the older instruments from the likes of Tektronix and HP are more likely to meet said specs than the modern non-name stuff. I have a Tek 555 here with a good assortment of plug-ins. And a Solartron portable 'scope, also valved. It's fine for head alignments, etc. And you all know of my love of the HP5245 counter. > alignments and LGP-30 repairs are better done with old Tek scopes than > with modern digitizing scopes, at least that's my experience. > Although we are a computer museum, we started to collect/rescue old > measurement equipment that is related to computers, i.e. scopes, logic > analyzers, DMMs, tube testers and so on. For example, we use a Funke > RPG4/3 for testing the tubes in our LGP-30s. I have a vlave tester than I use -- an AVO Mk 4 -- and one that I must get round to repairing -- a Mullard High Speed Valve Tester. The former is a preoper mutual conductance tester, and is an excellent instrument, the latter is an emissions tester AFAIK, but is interesting in that you have a 'pucnhed card' (actually a piece of SRBP with holes in it) that you slot into the instrument. An array of contacts (I think 10*14) senses the holes and sets the electrode voltages and pin connections for the particular valve under test. Alas none of my computers (or calculators) are old enough to need a valve tester to repair them -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 18 19:55:27 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 17:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC TCP/IP Re: AT & T UNIX pc's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <340853.20824.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > it...Wollongong wrote the IP stack, but it was > terribly unstable and > crashed the whole machine frequently. Funny you should mention that firm. I was going through some old clippings from PeeCee magazine, and saw mention of a package they wrote for DOS. I should have kept that particular article, as well as a number of others, but got sick of the mess and threw it all out. Was their stack for DOS environs any better? ____________________________________________________________________________________Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 18 19:58:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 17:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group shipments was Re: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: <200705181502.01377.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <918616.47757.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > Punching "shipping broker" into google comes back > with a bit under 2 million > hits... Question is would I ever be able to acquire, f'rinstance, a Mitsubishi MyBrain for a reasonable sum of money? Are *unusual* Japanese computers difficult to come by? Is it so few Japanese collectors speak English, or vice versa? Halp. ____________________________________________________________________________________Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 18 20:19:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interested in trading an IBM System 23/Datamaster for... Message-ID: <663445.37397.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> ...you tell me. It's not in the greatest cosmetic condition, but it worked (the last time I checked). It's very heavy. Shipping would be catastrophic... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 18 20:21:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: freaky IBM terminal (eBay) Message-ID: <196687.37530.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-5251-12-VINTAGE-IBM-TERMINAL-DISPLAY_W0QQitemZ140118306336QQihZ004QQcategoryZ74946QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 18 20:28:19 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hitachi 6809 Peach (Down Unda) Message-ID: <993943.40554.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/HITACHI-PEACH-MB-6890-K-RARE-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-SYSTEM_W0QQitemZ110126352864QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem and so CoCo fans, you have a rival... ____________________________________________________________________________________Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 18 20:45:27 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 19:45:27 -0600 Subject: freaky IBM terminal (eBay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 18 May 2007 18:21:32 -0700. <196687.37530.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <196687.37530.qm at web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-5251-12-VINTAGE-IBM-TERMINAL-DISPLAY_W0QQitemZ1401183 06336QQihZ004QQcategoryZ74946QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Yeah, I saw that too. The problem I have with IBM terminals is that there's not really anything I can do with them since I don't have the IBM gear they need to mate with.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 18 21:07:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 20:07:26 -0600 Subject: govliq: 130 reels of 9-track tape (Norfolk, VA) Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 18 21:13:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 20:13:05 -0600 Subject: govliq: 2 Rolm UYK-64(V) computers (Norfolk, VA) Message-ID: Manual: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 18 21:19:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 20:19:47 -0600 Subject: govliq: 8 ADM-5 terminals (San Antonio, TX) Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 18 22:12:19 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 20:12:19 -0700 Subject: PC TCP/IP Re: AT & T UNIX pc's References: <340853.20824.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <464E6AE7.89708630@cs.ubc.ca> Chris M wrote: > > --- Dave McGuire wrote: > > > it...Wollongong wrote the IP stack, but it was > > terribly unstable and > > crashed the whole machine frequently. > > Funny you should mention that firm. I was going > through some old clippings from PeeCee magazine, and > saw mention of a package they wrote for DOS. I should > have kept that particular article, as well as a number > of others, but got sick of the mess and threw it all > out. > Was their stack for DOS environs any better? Wollongong also produced a TCP/IP stack for VMS in the mid-80s, before DEC got around to doing so. We used it for X.400 transport. In my experience the VMS version was stable, but I don't think I can say I thrashed it very hard. At the same time, I don't think we heard any complaints about it from others who were using it with our X.400 system in a more production-like environment. I also had some time with those AT&T 3B-somethings in 1984, when we were asked to port our X.400 system to SysV. They were nice little Unix boxes for their time, to my recollection. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri May 18 22:01:47 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 04:01:47 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F3A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> >The 11/94 backplane shown in figure 1-2 in EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf shows a KDJ11-E M8981 in slot 1, an APS module M7914 >in slot 2, and slot 3 empty. Does anyone know for certain that this backplane it compatible with MSV11-J modules, and if >so in which slots they would go? We seem to have come down to one fudamental question. That is to say whats the differnce between the backplane in an 11/84 and that in an 11/94? I can confirm the actual systems were as stated above ie KDJ11-E M8981 in slot 1 APS module M7914 in slot 2 Nothing in slot 3 So how can we tell if the first three slots in each type are compatible? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick Sent: 18 May 2007 20:43 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: The Last of The Line On 5/17/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > OK we have a change > > >PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 joe lang > > Rod > >From my understanding of this after looking at various manuals this is true for an 11/73 or 11/83 with an H9872 backplane in a BA23 box, but not for an 11/84. Figure 8-6 in EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf shows a PDP-11/84-A backplane with the MDM M7677 in the MDM slot, the KDJ11-BF M8190 in slot 1, a MSV11-JB/JC M8637-BA/CA in slot 2, and a MLM load module M7556 in slot 3. Not clear to me if the MLM in this case could be replaced by a second MSV11-J. The 11/94 backplane shown in figure 1-2 in EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf shows a KDJ11-E M8981 in slot 1, an APS module M7914 in slot 2, and slot 3 empty. Does anyone know for certain that this backplane it compatible with MSV11-J modules, and if so in which slots they would go? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 19 02:33:28 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 03:33:28 -0400 Subject: PC TCP/IP Re: AT & T UNIX pc's In-Reply-To: <340853.20824.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <340853.20824.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5B359AD0-965D-488B-9A46-2FEDF051E64D@neurotica.com> On May 18, 2007, at 8:55 PM, Chris M wrote: >> it...Wollongong wrote the IP stack, but it was >> terribly unstable and >> crashed the whole machine frequently. > > Funny you should mention that firm. I was going > through some old clippings from PeeCee magazine, and > saw mention of a package they wrote for DOS. I should > have kept that particular article, as well as a number > of others, but got sick of the mess and threw it all > out. ! > Was their stack for DOS environs any better? No idea. I sure hope so. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 19 06:37:38 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 12:37:38 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464E341B.5030707@compsys.to> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F24@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <464E341B.5030707@compsys.to> Message-ID: <464EE182.2080109@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/05/2007 00:17, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Now that makes a lot more sense. >> >> So PMI memory choice is: (2 Max) >> >> MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 >> MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 >> > Jerome Fine replies: > > I am not absolutely positive, BUT the probability is VERY > high that the above two PMI memory boards are ONLY for the > Qbus. I believe that you must use either the MSV11-JB or > the MSV11-JC within the PDP-11/84 system. Nope, the -JD and -JE work in both. However, the -JB and -JC only work in Unibus systems such as the 11/84. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Sat May 19 09:09:30 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 15:09:30 +0100 Subject: OT? Freecycling Compaq Proliant 6500 - Milton Keynes, UK. Message-ID: Not sure whether a 10-year-old quad Xeon is OT here or not - it's very late by the standards of many machines here, but I found it to have some "interestingness" value. Anyway this machine died on me recently and I don't have the heart to figure out what's wrong with it & get it going again. I offer it here first in case anyone local could use it (or the spares it constitutes), otherwise it'll go on the local freecycle. Stroller. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat May 19 12:33:19 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 10:33:19 -0700 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/18/07, Richard wrote: > I want to purchase this item from ebay 130113266639 and the seller > quoted me this for shipping: > > "The total weight is 45kg! The cheapest freight I have found costs > approx #200.00 (approx $400) with UPS. It would need to be > shipped in 2 boxes. If you can find a cheaper shipping quote from > London, UK, N10 3AB then you are welcome to arrange your own > pickup by a delivery company from here if you win the auction." > > Any suggestions on a more cost effective way to ship this? I suspect > the person got an air shipping quote and not something slower but less > expensive. You might check out direct airport to airport. We have shipped electronics by delivering it to the airport freight people for the airline. I think we were using Lufthansa which as a direct flight from PDX to Germany, Frankfurt. It cost about half of what normall shipping cost. Is there anyone that flys from London to anyplace near you? check and see if that airline has airport to airport freight. That would probably be your cheapest. Shipping to and from from the United Kingdom is very expensifve. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat May 19 12:48:38 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 10:48:38 -0700 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > This is probably more trouble than its worth. > -- I think it is pretty rare, nice looking with SW and Keyboard. I think the video problems is in the monitor and probably the Horizontal Hold circuit. Can one of the London collectors pick it up and hold it till; one finds a cheaper way to get it here (maybe along with some one's container of antiques....) We have a dealer here on the Oregon coast that ships containers to the US of old English furniture. There should be some sort of broker / freight forwarder that fills containers with other peoples goods. Did you check with the ebay freight shipping people? I have used them domestically a couple of times and received good help and discounts. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 19 13:03:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 12:03:26 -0600 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 19 May 2007 10:33:19 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Paxton Hoag" writes: > Is there anyone that flys from London to anyplace near you? Delta flys direct from London to SLC, so I've asked the seller to check that. Otherwise, its UPS as the cheapest so far. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From sethm at loomcom.com Sat May 19 14:09:45 2007 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 12:09:45 -0700 Subject: Friden Flexowriter Message-ID: Well, this is either the stupidest thing I've ever done, or a really cool find that will fill me with joy. I just won a Friden Flexowriter on eBay (Item #180115571829). I've been looking for one of these for almost ten years, and up popped this one, with no bids but mine. It's almost local, so I'll be picking it up in person to avoid shipping. It'll cost more in gasoline, but it should protect against the danger of shipping damage. I'd love to hear from anyone else who has one, or who has worked on one. I've downloaded the MIT memos regarding the operation of the PDP-1 and TX-0 Flexowriters from Bitsavers, but that's literally all the documentation I have. I'm not even sure what character set this one has -- it is lacking the upper-case symbols on the number keys, for instance, and the "1" key seems to be on the right ("2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 0, 1"). I understand they were frequently customized with their own character codes, as well. The Flexowriter in question is "not working", although it looks like it's in excellent shape physically. I've become quite handy with typewriter mechanisms recently (don't ask), so I'm hoping that whatever the problem is is fixable without terrible difficulty. If not, I'm close to Los Altos Typewriter, who (I believe? I'm not sure on this) repaired the Soroban console for the Computer History Museum's PDP-1. Wish me luck with this potential white elephant. -Seth From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sat May 19 14:33:11 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 15:33:11 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <464276C7.2080308@nktelco.net> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> <464276C7.2080308@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <464F50F7.4080509@nktelco.net> Charles H. Dickman wrote: > I have an RD32 that I just formatted with an RQDX3 last week. I am > going to get my Pro380 out and see what happens. I will probably do > this with RT11. The RD32 did not work. I could not convince the standard FORMAT program to format the disk. This may be because the RD32 had 6 heads and none of the standard Pro drives had 6 heads. I then took a 3.5" NEC D3142 drive that came out of an old NEC PC and it formatted in the Pro just fine. This drive has 8 heads and 642 tracks. If the FORMAT program uses the same identification algorithm as DW.SYS, it probably sees that it has 8 heads and interprets that as an RD52Q. Is there a way to boot from the RX50 if there is an OS on the hard disk in a Pro? The only way that I could get the RX50 to boot was to remove the hard disk and then power up without a floppy in the drive and then when I got the diskette image on the screen to insert the floppy. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 19 15:01:41 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 13:01:41 -0700 Subject: Friden Flexowriter Message-ID: <464F57A5.6020706@bitsavers.org> > Wish me luck with this potential white elephant. If you decide not to restore it, CHM would be interested. From bqt at softjar.se Sat May 19 05:14:09 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 12:14:09 +0200 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <200705181455.l4IErVHn098456@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705181455.l4IErVHn098456@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <464ECDF1.6040606@softjar.se> joe lang skrev: > PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 No. That's when you are on a q-bus. This is a Unibus box. Then the CPU goes into slot 1 and the memory cards goes into slots 2 and 3. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sat May 19 05:22:01 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 12:22:01 +0200 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <200705181455.l4IErVHn098456@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705181455.l4IErVHn098456@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <464ECFC9.5030209@softjar.se> Pete Turnbull skrev: > On 17/05/2007 21:51, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > "Rod Smallwood" skrev: > >>> >> Module Type Speed RAM ROM LTC SLU >>> >> ------ ---- ----- --- --- --- --- >>> >> M8190 KDJ11-B >>> >> M8190-AD KDJ11-BA 18 >>> >> M8190-AB KDJ11-BB 15 0 Y Yes >>> >> 2 >>> >> M8190-AC KDJ11-BD >>> >> M8190-AZ KDJ11-BF 18 0 Y Yes >>> >> 2 >> > >> > You need to check out if all of these really works in an 11/84. I don't >> > think they all do. Some had hardware bugs that meant they only work in >> > the 11/83 configuration. > > Are you sure about that? Early ones had hardware bugs that prevent them > working with an FPJ11 but I never heard of one not working in an 11/84. > In fact the buggy ones were often found in 11/84s. On the other hand > there are some PMI memories that only work in one machine flavour, but > the opposite way round to what you wrote: the MSV11-JB and -JC only work > in 11/84s; their ASICs aren't compatible with QBus systems. Not entirely sure. I got that from the field guide. If you look at the M8190 there, you'll see that the KDJ11-B is only used in the 11/84 (unibus only). The KDJ11-BA, -BB and -BD is marked as Q-bus only, and only 11/83. The KDJ11-BF is the final version, and is marked as working in both 11/83 and 11/84 (both Q-bus and Unibus). Of course there are other problems as well, such as the FPJ-11 socket on some versions, as well as speed. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sat May 19 05:35:42 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 12:35:42 +0200 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <200705190321.l4J3JS51008634@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705190321.l4J3JS51008634@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <464ED2FE.1090903@softjar.se> "Glen Slick" skrev: > On 5/17/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> > OK we have a change >> > >>> > >PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 >>> > >joe lang >> > >> > Rod >> > > > From my understanding of this after looking at various manuals this is > true for an 11/73 or 11/83 with an H9872 backplane in a BA23 box, but > not for an 11/84. Correct. So if people could stop assuming that an 11/84 have a q-bus, we would get a long way towards clearing this up. If people don't know about the 11/84 or 11/94, don't write answers based on your knowledge of the q-bus based KDJ11 setups. > Figure 8-6 in EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf shows a PDP-11/84-A backplane > with the MDM M7677 in the MDM slot, the KDJ11-BF M8190 in slot 1, a > MSV11-JB/JC M8637-BA/CA in slot 2, and a MLM load module M7556 in slot > 3. Not clear to me if the MLM in this case could be replaced by a > second MSV11-J. Yes. The MLM isn't really neccesary if you have one memory card in there either, if I remember right. But if you have two memory cards, you don't have any space left for the load module anyhow. > The 11/94 backplane shown in figure 1-2 in EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf > shows a KDJ11-E M8981 in slot 1, an APS module M7914 in slot 2, and > slot 3 empty. Does anyone know for certain that this backplane it > compatible with MSV11-J modules, and if so in which slots they would > go? It's the same backplane. I have an 11/94 box here with an 11/84 cpu and memory. Works just fine. Just wish I could land an 11/9x cpu as well. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sat May 19 05:46:15 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 12:46:15 +0200 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <200705190321.l4J3JS51008634@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705190321.l4J3JS51008634@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <464ED577.3070901@softjar.se> "Jerome H. Fine" skrev: >>Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >Now that makes a lot more sense. >> > >> >So PMI memory choice is: (2 Max) >> > >> >MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 >> >MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 >> > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I am not absolutely positive, BUT the probability is VERY > high that the above two PMI memory boards are ONLY for the > Qbus. I believe that you must use either the MSV11-JB or > the MSV11-JC within the PDP-11/84 system. Good catch! I didn't think of that one. Yes, you're right. In fact the -JD and -JE don't even claim to be PMI memory, but just plain Q-bus memory (according to the field guide). That's definitely not useful. You need the -JB or -JC. > It is probably confusing, but the CPU is the KDJ11-BF which > is used in BOTH the PDP-11/83 (which I have and the memory > used is the MSV11-JD or the MSV11-JE) and the PDP-11/84 > which you have. If you can find a KDJ11-BF along with two > MSV11-JC PMI memory boards, the cost will likely be much > less than a PDP-11/94 CPU. That is probably correct as well. The 11/9x cpu boards are scarce and expensive. The 11/8x cpu boards are more common and reasonably priced. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 19 06:05:00 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 12:05:00 +0100 Subject: group shipments was Re: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: <200705182229.l4IMTl54013906@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200705182229.l4IMTl54013906@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1179572700.19989.12.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 18:29 -0400, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Fri, 18 May 2007 20:43:59 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 11:22 -0700, Chris M wrote: > > >> Maybe we should start a trans-pond want/have > >> list...and go from there? > > >Does anyone on the list have a boat? > > more likely access to a private jet ... Both good, the jet is a little more expensive to run though. Gordon From bqt at softjar.se Sat May 19 12:20:09 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 19:20:09 +0200 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <200705191703.l4JH1U7J015643@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705191703.l4JH1U7J015643@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <464F31C9.9020201@softjar.se> "Rod Smallwood" skrev: >> The 11/94 backplane shown in figure 1-2 in EK-PDP94-MG-001_Sep90.pdf >> shows a KDJ11-E M8981 in slot 1, an APS module M7914 >in slot 2, and >> slot 3 empty. Does anyone know for certain that this backplane it >> compatible with MSV11-J modules, and if >so in which slots they would >> go? > > We seem to have come down to one fudamental question. > That is to say whats the differnce between the backplane in an 11/84 and > that in an 11/94? > > I can confirm the actual systems were as stated above ie > KDJ11-E M8981 in slot 1 > APS module M7914 in slot 2 > Nothing in slot 3 > > So how can we tell if the first three slots in each type are compatible? Easy. By listening to me. :-) I have an 11/94 box, with an 11/84 CPU and PMI memory in it here, and running. It's the same backplanes, and the same Unibus map. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 19 14:54:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 14:54:34 -0500 Subject: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464F55FA.7020604@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Caroline wrote: > as a treat here is an Elliott 803 at Lucas Quick one taken earlier today of our 803 during fault-finding: http://www.patooie.com/temp/elliott_803_fixing_sm.jpg ... and one of the two core cabs: http://www.patooie.com/temp/elliott_803_memory_cab_sm.jpg (smaller images, both are 150KB-ish) It's still not quite there, but very close to being back in working order again. I believe our resident Elliott guy (and ex-Elliott engineer) said that he used to service that very machine at Lucas which you linked to! cheers Jules From shumaker at att.net Sat May 19 15:18:24 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 13:18:24 -0700 Subject: New Ebay listing -DEC compatible? stuff In-Reply-To: <464F50F7.4080509@nktelco.net> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> <464276C7.2080308@nktelco.net> <464F50F7.4080509@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <200705192018.l4JKIPE3075758@keith.ezwind.net> strange listing on EBay: RARE EXTERNAL HARD DRIVE & 8" FLOPPY SYSTEM RARE (#330121685672) one of the photos shows a label on the unit with the text: 1 RX02/03 and 4 RL02 EMULATION. ss From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 19 15:20:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 15:20:24 -0500 Subject: group shipments was Re: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: <1179572700.19989.12.camel@elric> References: <200705182229.l4IMTl54013906@keith.ezwind.net> <1179572700.19989.12.camel@elric> Message-ID: <464F5C08.8030903@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 18:29 -0400, Bob Bradlee wrote: >> On Fri, 18 May 2007 20:43:59 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 11:22 -0700, Chris M wrote: >>>> Maybe we should start a trans-pond want/have >>>> list...and go from there? >>> Does anyone on the list have a boat? >> more likely access to a private jet ... > > Both good, the jet is a little more expensive to run though. I'm sure a large VAX could be made watertight. Strap an outboard to it and: instant cargo ship... :-) I'm probably shipping a few crates of stuff UK->US sometime, but I'm afraid no idea exactly when (plus I have no idea how that works with customs, assuming there's all the same "is this all yours / did you pack it yourself" stuff that airlines ask!) There's an international shipping outfit a few miles up the road from my UK address - I need to talk to them sometime soonish to see what the deal is with "vintage bits of computer that untrained people might think could be used to make bombs" :-) From ceby2 at csc.com Sat May 19 15:33:58 2007 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 21:33:58 +0100 Subject: A little help w/shipping from the UK, please? In-Reply-To: <200705181702.l4IH0vc7099841@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Richard, I've dealt with containerized shipping if that's a help. You can ping me off list and I can give you some pointers. But the level of effort is probably absurd for what you're attempting to achieve. Basically you just want to get quotes from ANC Express (now owned by FedEx) and ParcelPost, from the UK websites. They both do a roaring domestic surface trade, and have international shipping capabilities of course. Given the exchange rate, I hope you got a good deal, because the shipping is likely to seem expensive because we've gone from $1.70=?1 over the last two years to $2=?1. Best of luck anyway. Colin Eby ceby2 at csc.com From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat May 19 16:23:20 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 22:23:20 +0100 Subject: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St ? In-Reply-To: <464F55FA.7020604@yahoo.co.uk> References: <464F55FA.7020604@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > > http://www.patooie.com/temp/elliott_803_fixing_sm.jpg That looks fun, I wish the petrol wasnt so expensive at the moment or I'd be down there! > > ... and one of the two core cabs: > > http://www.patooie.com/temp/elliott_803_memory_cab_sm.jpg > > I believe our resident Elliott guy (and ex-Elliott engineer) said that he used > to service that very machine at Lucas which you linked to! Ah perhaps he could tell me more as all I have is that pic and some manuals 803 computer library of programmes volume 2 Programming the Elliott 402E electronic digital computer (did they have a 402E as well) TRM250 tape reader Cant remember if the manuals are from the same source (Lucas Archive when Gt King street was demolished) There were a number of early computing books that I got from there as well Dave Caroline From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 19 16:25:46 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 14:25:46 -0700 Subject: New Ebay listing -DEC compatible? stuff Message-ID: <464F6B5A.3090206@bitsavers.org> > RARE EXTERNAL HARD DRIVE & 8" FLOPPY SYSTEM RARE (#330121685672) Chrislin OEMed AED Qbus disc/floppy controllers. You need an AED card to make this work (with the correct configuration prom). There is a breakout board in the back to take the 50 pin cable that comes in and fans it out to the 34/20 and 50 pin cables needed by the drives. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 19 18:13:36 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 00:13:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Friden Flexowriter In-Reply-To: from "Seth Morabito" at May 19, 7 12:09:45 pm Message-ID: > > I'd love to hear from anyone else who has one, or who has worked on I have one, and not suprisingly, I've also had it apart. They are fairly modular (although removing the complete typing unit chassis is a lot of work), you can remove the punch, reader, encolder and decoder very easily. A couple of things to watch for if you're taking it apart. Firslty, you need a set of Bristol Spline keys, the grubscrews have that type of socket. Secodnly, the carrigage feed escapment has 4 rows of loose ball bearingsm of 2 sizes. If yoy're tempted to strip this, take great care (or ask me...) > one. I've downloaded the MIT memos regarding the operation of the > PDP-1 and TX-0 Flexowriters from Bitsavers, but that's literally all > the documentation I have. I'm not even sure what character set this > one has -- it is lacking the upper-case symbols on the number keys, > for instance, and the "1" key seems to be on the right ("2, 3, 4, 5, > 6, 7, 8, 9, 0, 1"). I understand they were frequently customized > with their own character codes, as well. Mine has separe shift up and shift down character codes that move the type basket, I think. I've used one that worked in ASCII and which did the shifts automatically. > > The Flexowriter in question is "not working", although it looks like > it's in excellent shape physically. I've become quite handy with > typewriter mechanisms recently (don't ask), so I'm hoping that The basic mecahsnim, is that of an electric typewriter, with the motor-drivven roller running across the chassis and snail cams that are released onto the roller when you press a key, they in turn and drien ronnf by the roller and then operate the typebar linkages. -tony From bear at typewritten.org Sat May 19 19:15:44 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 17:15:44 -0700 Subject: System/36 IPL Signon Message-ID: <89D23216-1688-4003-81D6-FCCED7E08C52@typewritten.org> Is there anybody on the list who knows the proper chant to appease a System/36 "IPL SIGN-ON" panel? I have zero experience with this, but I take it as a good sign that maybe security is disabled, as there's a user name field and no password field. I'm not too proud to accept a lot of handholding on this project. (@: FWIW it's a 5364 (the S/36 PC). Thanks! ok bear From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 19 20:57:45 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 20:57:45 -0500 Subject: ibm sys/34 (two) available in st. louis Message-ID: <002501c79a82$433c74d0$6800a8c0@JWEST> Two running IBM sys/34 boxes, all peripherals, terminals, and docs included. Contact me off-list if there's interest. If no takers soon they will be scrapped. Jay West From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat May 19 21:22:09 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 22:22:09 -0400 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464ED577.3070901@softjar.se> References: <200705190321.l4J3JS51008634@dewey.classiccmp.org> <464ED577.3070901@softjar.se> Message-ID: <464FB0D1.6060503@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >"Jerome H. Fine" skrev: > >>Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> >Now that makes a lot more sense. > >> >So PMI memory choice is: (2 Max) > >> >MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 > >> >MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I am not absolutely positive, BUT the probability is VERY > > high that the above two PMI memory boards are ONLY for the > > Qbus. I believe that you must use either the MSV11-JB or > > the MSV11-JC within the PDP-11/84 system. > Good catch! I didn't think of that one. Yes, you're right. In fact the > -JD and -JE don't even claim to be PMI memory, but just plain Q-bus > memory (according to the field guide). That's definitely not useful. > You need the -JB or -JC. Jerome Fine replies: The MSV11-JE can be used as either normal memory when installed below the CPU or as PMI memory when installed above the CPU. Since I have actually used this board in both positions, I can absolutely confirm this to be true for a Qbus BA23 or BA123 backplane. When used with a KDJ11-Bx CPU (the quad board) and the MSV11-JE is below the CPU, under RT-11, the CPU is reported as a PDP-11/73 and the memory is NOT noted as being PMI memory. When used with a KDJ11-Bx CPU and the MSV11-JE is above the CPU, under RT-11 the CPU is reported as a PDP-11/83 and the memory is noted as being PMI memory. When using 2 of these boards with the switches set correctly, 4 MBytes of memory is available. When I used 2 of these boards, I only used both above or both below the CPU. While I doubt that there would be any permanent damage, I recommend that it not be tried, i.e. one board above the CPU and one board below the CPU. In my experience, I have always read that the MSV11-JD and the MSV11-JE are ONLY for use with the Qbus. If anyone has successfully used either board with a PDP-11/84, that would be helpful information. I strongly suggest that without extremely reliable confirmation that these 2 boards always be limited to use ONLY with a Qbus system and in particular in an ABCD slot. On the other hand, Peter Turnbull states in his post of today that the above is NOT true. I have also replied to Peter's post asking him to be absolutely sure, i.e. "Peter have you ever used either the MSV11-JD or the MSV11-JE with a PDP-11/84 system?" I have also read that the MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC are for use ONLY in a PDP-11/84 system. If anyone has successfully used either board in a Qbus system either above or below the CPU, that would be helpful information. I strongly suggest that without extremely reliable confirmation that these 2 boards always be limited to use ONLY in a PDP-11/84 system. Peter Turnbull confirms this warning. > > It is probably confusing, but the CPU is the KDJ11-BF which > > is used in BOTH the PDP-11/83 (which I have and the memory > > used is the MSV11-JD or the MSV11-JE) and the PDP-11/84 > > which you have. If you can find a KDJ11-BF along with two > > MSV11-JC PMI memory boards, the cost will likely be much > > less than a PDP-11/94 CPU. > That is probably correct as well. The 11/9x cpu boards are scarce and > expensive. The 11/8x cpu boards are more common and reasonably priced. I AGREE!!!!!!!!!!! As far as my testing was able to show, the PDP-11/93 CPU is only about 10% faster than the PDP-11/83 CPU when it is used with PMI memory. Consequently, just about the only reason to use the PDP-11/93 CPU is when the reduction in the number of boards is critical such as when a BA123 is being used (with 4 ABCD slots and 8 ABAB slots) which can't be expanded. Equally, either a single BA23 (with 3 ABCD slots and 5 ABAB slots) or a dual BA23 (with 5 ABCD slots and 9 1/2 ABAB slots - the last 1/2 ABAB slot is lost and the first ABCD slot is lost the the connecting boards and cable) can also have the same problem. I tend to assume that the speed difference between a PDP-11/94 system and a PDP-11/84 system is also only about 10%, but I have never tested either system. My usual speed test under RT-11 is to compare 7000 blocks of the VM0: device against itself. I used to have both numbers, but I can at least get the time for the PDP-11/83 if anyone wants. The PDP-11/83, 2 MSV11-JE boards and 2 DLV11-J boards uses 4 quad slots while a PDP-11/93 uses only 1 quad ABCD slot or between 1 and 3 less slots depending on how much memory and DLV11-J boards are used. In addition, if 4 MBytes of memory are essential and only 1 additional quad slot is required, there are 3rd party 4 MByte PMI memory boards for the Qbus, i.e. just one quad slot is needed. I have never been that short of slots. I have also read that the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE boards should NEVER be used together. Can anyone else confirm or deny this? I suspect that 3 * MSV11-JD boards may be used in a BA123 box with 4 ABCD slots, but since I don't have any MSV11-JD boards, let alone 3 of them, I can't verify this. Obviously, even in a BA123 box, a maximum of 2 * MSV11-JE boards are used. Please ask if there are any questions. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat May 19 21:23:22 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 22:23:22 -0400 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464EE182.2080109@dunnington.plus.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F24@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <464E341B.5030707@compsys.to> <464EE182.2080109@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <464FB11A.7070609@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > >On 19/05/2007 00:17, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> Now that makes a lot more sense. >>> So PMI memory choice is: (2 Max) >>> MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 >>> MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 >> >> Jerome Fine replies: >> >> I am not absolutely positive, BUT the probability is VERY >> high that the above two PMI memory boards are ONLY for the >> Qbus. I believe that you must use either the MSV11-JB or >> the MSV11-JC within the PDP-11/84 system. > > Nope, the -JD and -JE work in both. However, the -JB and -JC only > work in Unibus systems such as the 11/84. Jerome Fine replies: Good to know. Can anyone else confirm having used either the MSV11-JD or the MSV11-JE with a PDP-11/84 system? I have read the opposite, but I certainly bow to your much more extensive hardware experience. However, have you ever actually used an MSV11-JE board in a PDP-11/84 system? I answered the opposite in my previous post since I want to warn everyone just in case. Hopefully, anyone who reads my long reply will also read this short post. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 19 21:38:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 20:38:08 -0600 Subject: ibm sys/34 (two) available in st. louis In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 19 May 2007 20:57:45 -0500. <002501c79a82$433c74d0$6800a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: In article <002501c79a82$433c74d0$6800a8c0 at JWEST>, "Jay West" writes: > Two running IBM sys/34 boxes, all peripherals, terminals, and docs included. > Contact me off-list if there's interest. If no takers soon they will be > scrapped. Are the terminals graphics or just character? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat May 19 21:45:54 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 22:45:54 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <464F50F7.4080509@nktelco.net> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> <464276C7.2080308@nktelco.net> <464F50F7.4080509@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <464FB662.4040900@compsys.to> >C H Dickman wrote: > >Charles H. Dickman wrote: > >> I have an RD32 that I just formatted with an RQDX3 last week. I am >> going to get my Pro380 out and see what happens. I will probably do >> this with RT11. > > The RD32 did not work. I could not convince the standard FORMAT > program to format the disk. This may be because the RD32 had 6 heads > and none of the standard Pro drives had 6 heads. > > I then took a 3.5" NEC D3142 drive that came out of an old NEC PC and > it formatted in the Pro just fine. This drive has 8 heads and 642 > tracks. If the FORMAT program uses the same identification algorithm > as DW.SYS, it probably sees that it has 8 heads and interprets that as > an RD52Q. > > Is there a way to boot from the RX50 if there is an OS on the hard > disk in a Pro? The only way that I could get the RX50 to boot was to > remove the hard disk and then power up without a floppy in the drive > and then when I got the diskette image on the screen to insert the floppy. Jerome Fine replies: I have heard that it is possible to format an RD52 on the PRO, in addition to the RD51, so I am not surprised. How many blocks are on the NEC D3142 drive? I have a PRO350 which I have not used in many years, so I can't remember. However, I strongly tend to think it has POS installed. Consequently, when I attempted to boot RT-11, I just inserted the RX50 floppy in the RX50 drive and powered on the system. I can't remember, but I think that RT-11 booted from the floppy. The aspect that I find most interesting is that RT-11 requires a special device driver that I understand intercepts certain system and hardware interrupts such as the clock. This device driver is made resident at boot time, so something is very special with that device driver. Since there is no documentation on the PRO hardware, can anyone suggest anything? Otherwise, I will have to sort out this question from the source code. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 19 21:55:20 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 21:55:20 -0500 Subject: ibm sys/34 (two) available in st. louis References: Message-ID: <001c01c79a8a$4ebe7ee0$6800a8c0@JWEST> IBM terminals of that age were almost never graphical. I'm betting these are twinax, ebcdic, characterbased. Well, at least as much as one can call a twinax or coax ibm terminal a "character based" animal! > Are the terminals graphics or just character? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 19 23:37:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 00:37:13 -0400 Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes Message-ID: All, I have the chance to get an inexpensive "HP DLT40" drive or two... from my googling, it seems that these drives can read/write DLT III (10GB), DLT IIIxt (15GB) or DLT IV (20GB) tapes. Are DLT IV tapes (20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down and shipping? We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes from South Pole over six months ago, partially because we hadn't unwrapped one in over 4 years (we had moved up to SDLT @ 110GB each, some time prior to 1 Jan 2003). Old though they are, I'd consider an inexpensive SDLT drive and a stack of tapes to be a somewhat useful density to use for backup on any system I have lying around. What's not as clear, though, is if tapes that hold less than 20% of that are worth more than the cost of shipping. At the moment, I can get a couple of drives for essentially free (under $5, and, no, not at Dayton). What concerns me is the expense of the tapes, and more from a shipping standpoint than an actual per-tape cost. If we were throwing out these tapes last year, I can't imagine that I can't find someone else doing the same this year - it's just a matter of how much it costs to receive them. Given the things I'd like to back up (laptop, main Solaris file server), I'd want to be able to rotate tapes in a sensible scheme so as not to write to the tapes too often, but I have enough stuff to cover that one 20GB tape per month just isn't enough; I'd need several tapes per month at that density. Over the course of a year, I'd probably need tens of tapes, but perhaps with a higher density (SDLT, say), I could get away with a dozen or so tapes per year, but the drive and tapes wouldn't be as close to free as DLT IV (I've seen eBay prices on SDLT drives in the $20-$50 range). We stopped using SDLT at Pole last year (2006 data was written to SDLT and Ultrium tapes), so, again, I can see that the modern world isn't going to be as interested in them as some of the newer, multi-hundred-GB-per-tape schemes. I guess another way to phrase this might be, does anyone on the list know of a source of extremely inexpensive piles of DLT IV or SDLT tapes - either density media quickly adds up to more than the present cost of drives, so in the end, it's the weight of the tapes that's the limiting factor. Thanks, -ethan From bear at typewritten.org Sat May 19 23:52:26 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 21:52:26 -0700 Subject: help identifying unknown ISA card Message-ID: Howdy, guys. I've got an 8-bit ISA card here that I pulled out of an IBM PC/AT 5170 machine (which apparently was a VM/PC development machine at one point, and contains program code for the PC3277/GA). I wondered if anybody could help me identify what it might be. Parts have date codes in 1985; chips of note are 32k in 70ns 4Kx4 SRAM; intel 8086, 8259, and 8254; and a pair of 12-bit monolithic DACs. I/O is by one DE9m and one DB25m. Pictures here: http://www.typewritten.org/~bear/junk/unknown-card-annot.jpg http://www.typewritten.org/~bear/junk/unknown-card-obl.jpg Ideas? ok bear From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 20 00:29:44 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 01:29:44 -0400 Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D21A84A-F546-452A-A914-1B1A67503F1C@neurotica.com> On May 20, 2007, at 12:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have the chance to get an inexpensive "HP DLT40" drive or two... > from my googling, it seems that these drives can read/write DLT III > (10GB), DLT IIIxt (15GB) or DLT IV (20GB) tapes. Are DLT IV tapes > (20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down and shipping? > We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes from South Pole > over six months ago, !! I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with DLT-IV media. Though I suppose the thought of shipping them from the south pole will quell the vomit rising in my innards. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 20 01:22:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 02:22:36 -0400 Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: <5D21A84A-F546-452A-A914-1B1A67503F1C@neurotica.com> References: <5D21A84A-F546-452A-A914-1B1A67503F1C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 5/20/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 20, 2007, at 12:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Are DLT IV tapes > > (20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down and shipping? > > We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes from South Pole > > over six months ago, > > !! > > I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with > DLT-IV media. Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere around 30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT III box, but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media. Can I ask roughly how much you paid per tape? > Though I suppose the thought of shipping them from the south pole > will quell the vomit rising in my innards. Something else that might help is that a) they were pitched out after I left, and b) there was no way to know if they had or had not been subjected to temperatures outside of their comfort zone on their way down or while being moved from one part of the station to another. One could, I guess, employ random sampling to see if there were any gross problems with writes/reads, but given the journey they took, there's just no way to know if they were environmentally stressed or not. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 20 01:40:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 23:40:14 -0700 Subject: help identifying unknown ISA card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464F8ADE.26096.10595D49@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 May 2007 at 21:52, r.stricklin wrote: > I wondered if anybody could help me identify what it might be. Parts > have date codes in 1985; chips of note are 32k in 70ns 4Kx4 SRAM; > intel 8086, 8259, and 8254; and a pair of 12-bit monolithic DACs. I/O > is by one DE9m and one DB25m. There's a possibility that this is a Wavepak Data Acquisition board from Computational Systems, Inc. (CSI). It came out around 1984 and was very popular for those needing FFT-type data acquisition. It could also be a similar unit from Data Physics--both CSI and DPC were early players in PC FFT data acquisition. Their boards were freakishly expensive, if memory serves--in excess of $5K. There were probably others, but those are the ones I remember. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 20 01:41:36 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 02:41:36 -0400 Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: References: <5D21A84A-F546-452A-A914-1B1A67503F1C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <33566816-F96D-4765-BFB4-A183B418BFF3@neurotica.com> On May 20, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > (20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down and shipping? >> > We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes from >> South Pole >> > over six months ago, >> >> !! >> >> I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with >> DLT-IV media. > > Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere around > 30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT III box, > but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media. Yes. This was at work; our changer has DLT-7000 drives installed. My changer at home holds 40 DLT-IVs (DLT-8000 drives) and I have much more data to back up there than we do at work...go figure. :-( > Can I ask roughly how much you paid per tape? I think they were about eight bucks per tape. >> Though I suppose the thought of shipping them from the south pole >> will quell the vomit rising in my innards. > > Something else that might help is that a) they were pitched out after > I left, and b) there was no way to know if they had or had not been > subjected to temperatures outside of their comfort zone on their way > down or while being moved from one part of the station to another. > One could, I guess, employ random sampling to see if there were any > gross problems with writes/reads, but given the journey they took, > there's just no way to know if they were environmentally stressed or > not. Ahh ok. I will just keep saying "frozen, frozen, frozen" over and over until I feel better. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun May 20 01:58:11 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 23:58:11 -0700 Subject: help identifying unknown ISA card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464FF183.1020206@sbcglobal.net> The 670-9150-01 looks like a Tektronix part number. Possibly a waveform generator from some sort of test system. Tektronix made various custom boards based on the ISA and PCI interfaces. Most were used in systems they sold. I have a PQA 200 MPEG analyzer based on a Compaq PC loaded with Tektronix boards, all with 670-xxxx part numbers. Bob r.stricklin wrote: > Howdy, guys. > > I've got an 8-bit ISA card here that I pulled out of an IBM PC/AT 5170 > machine (which apparently was a VM/PC development machine at one > point, and contains program code for the PC3277/GA). > > I wondered if anybody could help me identify what it might be. Parts > have date codes in 1985; chips of note are 32k in 70ns 4Kx4 SRAM; > intel 8086, 8259, and 8254; and a pair of 12-bit monolithic DACs. I/O > is by one DE9m and one DB25m. > > Pictures here: > > http://www.typewritten.org/~bear/junk/unknown-card-annot.jpg > http://www.typewritten.org/~bear/junk/unknown-card-obl.jpg > > Ideas? > > ok > bear > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun May 20 02:32:07 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 00:32:07 -0700 Subject: Friden Flexowriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464FF977.8040509@msm.umr.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >>I'd love to hear from anyone else who has one, or who has worked on >> >> Billy Pettit and I took delivery of a Just o writer, which is an attempt to do a word processor or justifying typewriter by Friden to try to use for a console. The thing that goes on them is a cloth feed strip that connects various parts of the mechanism. This particular one had only remnants on the ends of metal tabs that once were on the ends of the bands. I would hope this specimen has them intact. Many do not. Jim From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun May 20 02:55:15 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 03:55:15 -0400 Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070520075515.C4908BA43E9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > I guess another way to phrase this might be, does anyone on the list > know of a source of extremely inexpensive piles of DLT IV or SDLT > tapes - either density media quickly adds up to more than the present > cost of drives, so in the end, it's the weight of the tapes that's the > limiting factor. For data backup, it's a false economy to compare the cost of the backup media to the cost of other backup media or to the cost of gas or to the cost of tea in China. The true comparison is the cost of making a backup vs the cost of not making a backup. For more than a decade folks have argued about the cost of backup media vs another backup media, and ignored the cost vs value of doing the backup at all. The cost of the media has been in the noise compared to the effort involved for a long long time, at least for those of us in the West. (Maybe things are different in former Eastern Block countries or subsaharan Africa, not that living at the South Pole might distort any of our senses of economics!) For almost any application, the convenience vs inconvenience of the backup is going to drive any consideration more than the cost of the media. DLT does have a very good advantage over others in convenience in that there is a good (although not perfect) history of drives being backwards compatible over ridiculously long time spans. There are OTHER factors - I made backups onto 9-tracks into the late 90's mostly as a justification for keeping dozens of drives around, not so much because it was the best or right way! If you want to pick up the tapes as a way of justifying keeping the DLT drive around, that's great: well into the late 90's I was still stockpiling vast quantities of Blackwatch tape (I mean, thousands of tape in a haul) just as part of my spinning tape reel obsession :-). But once the other non-economic factors come in, you have to acknowledge that you are no longer making decisions based solely on some hypothetical economic factor and abandon the economic comparisons. Tim. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun May 20 00:26:30 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 06:26:30 +0100 Subject: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St ? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F3C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi The Elliott core stores I worked on must have been the next generation. The electronics were in the two spaces either side of the core box. The boards were about a half to three quarters the size of those shown. The power supply was in the bottom of the cabinet and physically the same size as the store module. There was no monitor panel. The cabinet was full when there were four store modules and the psu present. I think the cabinets I knew were wider than those shown. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline Sent: 19 May 2007 22:23 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St ? > > http://www.patooie.com/temp/elliott_803_fixing_sm.jpg That looks fun, I wish the petrol wasnt so expensive at the moment or I'd be down there! > > ... and one of the two core cabs: > > http://www.patooie.com/temp/elliott_803_memory_cab_sm.jpg > > I believe our resident Elliott guy (and ex-Elliott engineer) said that > he used to service that very machine at Lucas which you linked to! Ah perhaps he could tell me more as all I have is that pic and some manuals 803 computer library of programmes volume 2 Programming the Elliott 402E electronic digital computer (did they have a 402E as well) TRM250 tape reader Cant remember if the manuals are from the same source (Lucas Archive when Gt King street was demolished) There were a number of early computing books that I got from there as well Dave Caroline From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun May 20 00:51:00 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 06:51:00 +0100 Subject: Re Last of the Line - The answer Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F3D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Thanks to Johnny Billquist our intrepid Swedish pdp-11 collector we now have an answer to the 11/94 problem. The answer is any M8190 CPU and any M8637 memory. CPU in Slot 1 Memory in Slot 2 and 3. So CPU's M8190 KDJ11-B M8190-AD KDJ11-BA M8190-AB KDJ11-BB M8190-AC KDJ11-BD M8190-AZ KDJ11 Memory MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 Before I go to the dealers does anybody have any of these? Rod From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 20 05:36:10 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 11:36:10 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464FB11A.7070609@compsys.to> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F24@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <464E341B.5030707@compsys.to> <464EE182.2080109@dunnington.plus.com> <464FB11A.7070609@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4650249A.80900@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/05/2007 03:23, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Nope, the -JD and -JE work in both. However, the -JB and -JC only >> work in Unibus systems such as the 11/84. > Good to know. Can anyone else confirm having used either the > MSV11-JD or the MSV11-JE with a PDP-11/84 system? > > I have read the opposite, but I certainly bow to your much more > extensive hardware experience. However, have you ever actually used > an MSV11-JE board in a PDP-11/84 system? No, I've used an 11/84 but never owned one nor taken one apart. But it's in plenty of documentation, like for example the MSV11-J manual, the relevant Micronote about memories for microPDP-11s, the 11/84 Technical and Reference Manual, and several entries in the DECUServe archives. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 20 06:04:19 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 12:04:19 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464ED577.3070901@softjar.se> References: <200705190321.l4J3JS51008634@dewey.classiccmp.org> <464ED577.3070901@softjar.se> Message-ID: <46502B33.7000901@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/05/2007 11:46, Johnny Billquist wrote: > "Jerome H. Fine" skrev: > > >>Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> >Now that makes a lot more sense. > >> > > >> >So PMI memory choice is: (2 Max) > >> > > >> >MSV11-JD M8637-D 1 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 > >> >MSV11-JE M8637-E 2 MB ECC PDP-11/84 or PDP-11/83 > >> > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > > > I am not absolutely positive, BUT the probability is VERY > > high that the above two PMI memory boards are ONLY for the > > Qbus. I believe that you must use either the MSV11-JB or > > the MSV11-JC within the PDP-11/84 system. > > Good catch! I didn't think of that one. Yes, you're right. In fact the > -JD and -JE don't even claim to be PMI memory, but just plain Q-bus > memory (according to the field guide). That's definitely not useful. You > need the -JB or -JC. No, that's wrong. Both the Micronotes and the manual for the MSV11-J are quite clear that they're all PMI memory, and that the difference is that the ASICs in the early ones (the -JB and -JC) do not support block-mode DMA (and imply that there may be other minor differences) which mean that you should not use the early ones in a QBus. However, the later ones work in both Unibus and QBus systems, as stated on page 1-3 of the MSV11-J manual. The 11/84 Technical Manual lists the MSV11-JD and -JE as the memory for an 11/84 system. This is also borne out by notes in the DECUServe archive, which also notes that the -JB and -JC do actually work in a QBus system, but very slowly with "fast" QBus DMA devices that want block-mode. The microPDP-11 Maintenance Manual also lists them as PMI. The Field Guide is wrong. You can use any of them in an 11/84, but you should not use the -JB and -JC in a QBus machine. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 20 06:02:51 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 12:02:51 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464FB0D1.6060503@compsys.to> References: <200705190321.l4J3JS51008634@dewey.classiccmp.org> <464ED577.3070901@softjar.se> <464FB0D1.6060503@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46502ADB.9080407@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/05/2007 03:22, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > The MSV11-JE can be used as either normal memory when installed below > the CPU or as PMI memory when installed above the CPU. Indeed, that's the stated design intention. > When I used 2 of these boards, I only used both above or both below > the CPU. While I doubt that there would be any permanent damage, I > recommend that it not be tried, i.e. one board above the CPU and one > board below the CPU. Again, yes. Normally, you'd not want to, because you'd lose the speed advantage of PMI on the cards below the processor. However if you had a BA23 backplane and wanted more than two memory cards, (eg because the PMI cards you had were only 1Mbyte each) you would have to add the rest as QBus memory, and an MSV11-J or two would be just as good as any other fast QBus memory. It definitely wouldn't do any damage. In fact, the MSV11-J manual gives an example (in the diagnostics section) of an MSV11-JE used as PMI memory with an MSV11-P (QBus memory) in the same system (and passing the diagnostics :-)) > In my experience, I have always read that the MSV11-JD and the > MSV11-JE are ONLY for use with the Qbus. [ ... ] > I have also read that the MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC are for use ONLY in a > PDP-11/84 system. I've answered that in another reply :-) > The PDP-11/83, 2 MSV11-JE boards and 2 DLV11-J boards uses 4 quad > slots while a PDP-11/93 uses only 1 quad ABCD slot But the two DLV11-Js would take up two slots, if they were Q22-CD slots. So in a BA123 box, with a CPU and two memory cards you only have one in the last Q22-CD and the second one in a Q22-Q22 slot, leaving the CD part of slot 4 empty (in a BA23, slot 4 is Q22-Q22 so you could put them side-by-side). You'd be better off using a DHV11 or a DHQ11 (assuming you have either of those). > I have also read that the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE boards should NEVER > be used together. Can anyone else confirm or deny this? No reason not to, except that you'd end up with an unusual amount of memory (3Mbytes). It certainly won't hurt anything, though of course you would need to set the start address of the lower board to the correct value. It's settable to any 16KB (8KW) boundary. > I suspect that 3 * MSV11-JD boards may be used in a BA123 box with 4 > ABCD slots, but since I don't have any MSV11-JD boards, let alone 3 > of them, I can't verify this. I don't recall ever trying *that*, but it too would work, so long as you set the start address of each board correctly, and again you'd end up with 3Mbytes, which is an unusual amount. The manual just says you can use "one or more MSV11-J memory modules", without mentioning size or maximum number. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun May 20 09:20:48 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 10:20:48 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <464FB662.4040900@compsys.to> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> <464276C7.2080308@nktelco.net> <464F50F7.4080509@nktelco.net> <464FB662.4040900@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46505940.2060902@nktelco.net> > C H Dickman wrote: >> I then took a 3.5" NEC D3142 drive that came out of an old NEC PC and >> it formatted in the Pro just fine. > Jerome Fine replies: > > I have heard that it is possible to format an RD52 on the PRO, > in addition to the RD51, so I am not surprised. How many blocks > are on the NEC D3142 drive. The drive itself is about 42MB. The RT-11 filesystem on the disk has 65535 or around that number. > Since there is no documentation > on the PRO hardware, can anyone suggest anything? The Pro Tech Manuals are on bitsavers. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 19 21:52:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 20:52:29 -0600 Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: <20070520075515.C4908BA43E9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20070520075515.C4908BA43E9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <464FB7ED.80209@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Shoppa wrote: > For data backup, it's a false economy to compare the cost of the > backup media to the cost of other backup media or to the cost > of gas or to the cost of tea in China. Well not that much money for tea in china ... So you read the tea leaves to see what your back up data was? > The true comparison is the cost of making a backup vs the cost of > not making a backup. The real cost of a backup is the restore ... most of the crummy DOS backups I have made were weak on getting your data back. From bob at jfcl.com Sun May 20 10:21:04 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 08:21:04 -0700 Subject: New Ebay listing -DEC compatible? stuff In-Reply-To: <464F6B5A.3090206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000001c79af2$7bf2c7a0$1401010a@Rhyme> > RARE EXTERNAL HARD DRIVE & 8" FLOPPY SYSTEM RARE (#330121685672) > Chrislin OEMed AED Qbus disc/floppy controllers. The DSD 880 was also a nice hard disk/floppy external drive unit that did RL/RX emulation, so the idea's not all that unique. This one looks like it'd be the perfect companion for an 11/03 system, but as Al says, without the controller card it's just a doorstop. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 20 10:31:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 08:31:21 -0700 Subject: help identifying unknown ISA card In-Reply-To: <464F8ADE.26096.10595D49@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <464F8ADE.26096.10595D49@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46500759.4491.123F9C32@cclist.sydex.com> You know, with a 8086 onboard, that thing has to have a ROM/PROM on it somewhere with firmware for the 8086. Why not dump it and see if a clue to the identity of the manufacturer can be found? It would be a rare bit of firmware that didn't have a vanity/copyright message in it. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 20 11:59:54 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 12:59:54 -0400 Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: <33566816-F96D-4765-BFB4-A183B418BFF3@neurotica.com> References: <33566816-F96D-4765-BFB4-A183B418BFF3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200705201259.54338.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 20 May 2007 02:41, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 20, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > (20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down and > >> > shipping? We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes > >> > from > >> > >> South Pole > >> > >> > over six months ago, > >> > >> !! > >> > >> I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with > >> DLT-IV media. > > > > Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere around > > 30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT III box, > > but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media. Ehh, it's not as nice as my 574-slot STK library that I got last summer. :) BTW, I've got about a thousand surplus DLT-IV tapes that I need to start getting rid of soon (they're tapes that used to be in our HSM system at work). They're all used, but degaussed, and were working just fine while we were using them up until the end of December. If anyone needs some tapes, let me know... I'm in West Lafayette, IN. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 20 12:28:45 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:28:45 -0400 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464ED2FE.1090903@softjar.se> References: <200705190321.l4J3JS51008634@dewey.classiccmp.org> <464ED2FE.1090903@softjar.se> Message-ID: <200705201328.46011.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 19 May 2007 06:35, Johnny Billquist wrote: > "Glen Slick" skrev: > > On 5/17/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> > OK we have a change > >> > > >>> > >PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 > >>> > >joe lang > >> > > >> > Rod > > > > From my understanding of this after looking at various manuals this > > is true for an 11/73 or 11/83 with an H9872 backplane in a BA23 > > box, but not for an 11/84. > > Correct. So if people could stop assuming that an 11/84 have a q-bus, > we would get a long way towards clearing this up. > If people don't know about the 11/84 or 11/94, don't write answers > based on your knowledge of the q-bus based KDJ11 setups. My "11/94" (which was an upgraded 11/84, and which I got CPU-less) actually does have a QBUS... it's got an Able Qniverter to hook the UNIBUS in the chassis to the QBUS from the CPU, and both QBUS and UNIBUS peripherals. Does anyone know how common that was? I don't see any evidence pointing towards it not being designed that way by DEC. The chassis is DEC badged, with a label on the side indicating that it was upgraded from an 11/84 to be an 11/94 at some point. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 20 12:31:33 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 18:31:33 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464ED2FE.1090903@softjar.se> References: <200705190321.l4J3JS51008634@dewey.classiccmp.org> <464ED2FE.1090903@softjar.se> Message-ID: <465085F5.2060107@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/05/2007 11:35, Johnny Billquist wrote: > "Glen Slick" skrev: > >>> > >PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 > > From my understanding of this after looking at various manuals this is > > true for an 11/73 or 11/83 with an H9872 backplane in a BA23 box, but > > not for an 11/84. BA23 is H9278, actually. > Correct. So if people could stop assuming that an 11/84 have a q-bus, we > would get a long way towards clearing this up. Except that it does have a (short) QBus :-) OK, we're agreed that the standard config for an 11/83 puts the memeory before the processor, and the standard config for an 11/84 puts the memory after the processor :-) Slots 1 to 3 of the H9277-A in an 11/84 *are* Q-Bus, and just the same as slots 1 to 3 in the H9278-A in a BA23 box, except that instead of the connections on sections C and D merely connecting the lower surface of one slot to the upper surface of the next, they're bussed right through, on the upper surfaces of both C and D. You can see that from the 11/84 technical documentation. Of course the topmost slot is dedicated to the MDM, slot 4 is dedicated to the KTJ11 which converts one bus to t'other, and the lower slots (5-12) are Unibus. This is why it's not necessary to put the PMI memory in front of the CPU in an 11/84 backplane. It is necessary in an 11/83 backplane because the KDJ11 only has the CD-interconnect on the upper surface (ie on fingers Cx1 and Dx1). Therefore it will not get any PMI control signals from a PMI board placed below it in a BA23 or BA123 backplane. It's this bussing of the PMI control signals on C/D which differs, not the QBus part, which PMI uses for the data, address, and some of the basic control signals. PMI memories like the MSV11-J complete the bus on the C/D fingers of a BA23 by having their Cx1 connected to their Cx2 (and Dx1 to Dx2). The P-series 11/84 which I've found described in one of the later 11/84 manuals used an MSV11-R, which is a normal QBus memory, not PMI. The above does *not* mean you could just put any QBus card into an 11/84. Obviously devices meant for Q22-Q22 serpentine backplanes would not work (and would potentially cause damage), devices with 16-bit and 18-bit addressing wouldn't work fully (if at all), and even some quad-height cards that normally use Q22-CD backplanes could be a problem, because many of them put test signals on the C or D fingers, and that would upset the PMI. I wouldn't recommend putting anything in an 11/84 that DEC didn't intend. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 20 12:42:03 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 18:42:03 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <464F31C9.9020201@softjar.se> References: <200705191703.l4JH1U7J015643@dewey.classiccmp.org> <464F31C9.9020201@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4650886B.70808@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/05/2007 18:20, Johnny Billquist wrote: > "Rod Smallwood" skrev: >> So how can we tell if the first three slots in each type are compatible? > > Easy. By listening to me. :-) > I have an 11/94 box, with an 11/84 CPU and PMI memory in it here, and > running. > > It's the same backplanes, and the same Unibus map. I've seen the 11/84 backplane referred to in one of the 11/84 technical manuals as an H9277A, and I've seen the 11/94 backplane referred to as H9277B, so there's apparently some difference but it must be trivial (maybe just a change of manufacturing location), else DEC would have changed the number rather than the suffix. What's more, DEC had official upgrade kits from 11/84 to 11/94 and there was never any suggestion of changing the backplane, or the KTJ11, or anything like that, only moving cables and swapping CPUs and memory. The process is described in detail in the 11/94 User Guide, which is on bitsavers if you want to look. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From james at attfield.co.uk Sun May 20 12:52:13 2007 From: james at attfield.co.uk (Jim Attfield) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 18:52:13 +0100 Subject: help identifying unknown ISA card In-Reply-To: <200705201704.l4KH2rkc031355@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On 19 May 2007 at 21:52, r.stricklin wrote: > > > I wondered if anybody could help me identify what it might be. Parts > > have date codes in 1985; chips of note are 32k in 70ns 4Kx4 SRAM; > > intel 8086, 8259, and 8254; and a pair of 12-bit monolithic DACs. I/O > > is by one DE9m and one DB25m. > > There's a possibility that this is a Wavepak Data Acquisition board > from Computational Systems, Inc. (CSI). It came out around 1984 and > was very popular for those needing FFT-type data acquisition. It > could also be a similar unit from Data Physics--both CSI and DPC were > early players in PC FFT data acquisition. Their boards were > freakishly expensive, if memory serves--in excess of $5K. If it were a data acquisition board surely it would have ADC's not DAC's? The use of DAC's surely implies an output board of some kind. The use of standard DB type connectors and lack of trim-pots etc. would seem to support this. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 20 13:11:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 11:11:09 -0700 Subject: help identifying unknown ISA card In-Reply-To: References: <200705201704.l4KH2rkc031355@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <46502CCD.8673.12D1EF55@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 May 2007 at 18:52, Jim Attfield wrote: > If it were a data acquisition board surely it would have ADC's not DAC's? > The use of DAC's surely implies an output board of some kind. The use of > standard DB type connectors and lack of trim-pots etc. would seem to support > this. Good point. Perhaps some sort of complex waveform generator? Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 20 13:20:12 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:20:12 -0500 Subject: Computer stuff 1970's ish at Lucas Birmingham Gt King St ? In-Reply-To: References: <464F55FA.7020604@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4650915C.4070600@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Caroline wrote: >> I believe our resident Elliott guy (and ex-Elliott engineer) said that >> he used >> to service that very machine at Lucas which you linked to! > > Ah perhaps he could tell me more I saw him again today - his (possibly hazy!) memory is that the machine had two sets of core (much the same as ours) and that it definitely had the film handlers. It's a shame the film drives are just out of shot in that Lucas photo (I assume they're on the end of the machine; I have a feeling that was standard Elliott config) He said that the building itself in which the machine was housed was pretty large - several floors - and was pretty run-down and dirty... The Science Museum also have a surviving 803 which I think was operational until it was dismantled for storage a while back - that one's a larger config and has three film drives plus controller (we only have the one drive, and are sadly missing the controlling logic). I have a vague memory that there's another 803 somewhere in the UK in private hands (but what state it's in I'm not sure) > Programming the Elliott 402E electronic digital computer (did they > have a 402E as well) Hmm... forgot to ask that. I'll do so though. I'm not sure whether he ever worked with anything other than the 803 machines, though (but presumably would remember a Lucas 402 if it was ever there whilst he was visiting the site). I know we've got some 401 docs at the museum, but I'm not sure if we've ever come across any 402. Doesn't ring any bells with me, anyway. cheers Jules From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun May 20 14:41:14 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 14:41:14 -0500 Subject: TEK 551 and 555 -off topic In-Reply-To: <200705181229.15444.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <624966d60705172326w36ebbf0dy71a14c343cb07f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070520143821.0d8880d8@localhost> At 12:29 PM 5/18/2007 -0400, you wrote: >On Friday 18 May 2007 04:45, Christian Corti wrote: > > On Fri, 18 May 2007, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > I came across a good looking 551 and not so good looking 555 and some > > > carts and plug ins. I have no interest in them. If anyone has any > > > interest, contact me off list and I'll submit offers for you. The current > > > owner does not ship, but I can try to. > > > > I think these Tek scopes aren't off topic at all. We use a Tek 555 > > regularly at out museum to repair/align our computers. RK05 head > > alignments and LGP-30 repairs are better done with old Tek scopes than > > with modern digitizing scopes, at least that's my experience. > > Although we are a computer museum, we started to collect/rescue old > > measurement equipment that is related to computers, i.e. scopes, logic > > analyzers, DMMs, tube testers and so on. For example, we use a Funke > > RPG4/3 for testing the tubes in our LGP-30s. > >Yahoo also has a "tekscopes" list that's about as active as this one, and >well worth one's time if these instruments are of interest... > >I just acquired a 536 this past week, myself. :-) The only reason I got my Tek 7904 to play again was the help I got on the tekscopes list. I spent $70 on replacement capacitors and replaced the shorted tantulums as well as some other marginal ones. I'd never have known where to start troubleshooting without this knowledgeable community. -T ----- 700. [Infidelity] Those who are faithful know only the trivial side of love: it is the faithless who know love's tragedies. --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 20 15:24:04 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 21:24:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: help identifying unknown ISA card In-Reply-To: <46500759.4491.123F9C32@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 20, 7 08:31:21 am Message-ID: > > You know, with a 8086 onboard, that thing has to have a ROM/PROM on > it somewhere with firmware for the 8086. Why not dump it and see if Why? It would be entirely possible to have the software for the 8086 in the RAM that's on that board. Load the RAM from the ISA bus, then enable the 8086 (say by de-assertign the reset pin) and let it run. I have at least one DSP card for the ISA bus that had no ROM on it. Just the (ROMless, I hasetn to add) DSP, a lot of high-speed RAM, the analogue interface chip and buffer amplifiers and an ISA interface circuit. -tony From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun May 20 15:32:32 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 15:32:32 -0500 Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: <200705201259.54338.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <33566816-F96D-4765-BFB4-A183B418BFF3@neurotica.com> <33566816-F96D-4765-BFB4-A183B418BFF3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070520153111.0d9314c8@localhost> Hmmm. I'm still using DLT-IV tapes for backup. How would I go about getting my hands on, say, 20 or 40 (price dependent) of them?? At 12:59 PM 5/20/2007 -0400, you wrote: >On Sunday 20 May 2007 02:41, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On May 20, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >> > (20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down and > > >> > shipping? We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes > > >> > from > > >> > > >> South Pole > > >> > > >> > over six months ago, > > >> > > >> !! > > >> > > >> I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with > > >> DLT-IV media. > > > > > > Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere around > > > 30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT III box, > > > but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media. > >Ehh, it's not as nice as my 574-slot STK library that I got last >summer. :) > >BTW, I've got about a thousand surplus DLT-IV tapes that I need to start >getting rid of soon (they're tapes that used to be in our HSM system at >work). They're all used, but degaussed, and were working just fine >while we were using them up until the end of December. > >If anyone needs some tapes, let me know... I'm in West Lafayette, IN. > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org ----- 358. [Philosophy] Life is what's happening while we're busy making other plans. --John Lennon --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From bqt at softjar.se Sun May 20 07:25:25 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 14:25:25 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/8x memory cards. Message-ID: <46503E35.3010209@softjar.se> I just verified that M8637-Ex cards works fine in both 11/83 and 11/84 systems. The same goes for M8637-Dx cards. I don't think I have any M8637-Bx or -Cx cards, so I can't try that. So to make it clear: MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE works fine in both Q-bus and Unibus systems. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sun May 20 14:13:51 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 21:13:51 +0200 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <200705201702.l4KH1PLj031316@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705201702.l4KH1PLj031316@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46509DEF.9050109@softjar.se> Pete Turnbull skrev: On 20/05/2007 03:22, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> > I have also read that the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE boards should NEVER >> > be used together. Can anyone else confirm or deny this? > > No reason not to, except that you'd end up with an unusual amount of > memory (3Mbytes). It certainly won't hurt anything, though of course > you would need to set the start address of the lower board to the > correct value. It's settable to any 16KB (8KW) boundary. What do you mean "unusual amount"? I've been running one 11/83 like that for the last two years until today actually, when I upgraded to 4 megs. :-) I used to run my 11/84 like that as well. Currently it's shut down. Haven't had time to organize my computer room after I moved, so it just sits there... >> > I suspect that 3 * MSV11-JD boards may be used in a BA123 box with 4 >> > ABCD slots, but since I don't have any MSV11-JD boards, let alone 3 >> > of them, I can't verify this. > > I don't recall ever trying *that*, but it too would work, so long as you > set the start address of each board correctly, and again you'd end up > with 3Mbytes, which is an unusual amount. The manual just says you can > use "one or more MSV11-J memory modules", without mentioning size or > maximum number. 3 megs "unusual"? Hah! ;-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 20 15:42:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 16:42:24 -0400 Subject: Any Palm developers on the list? Message-ID: Hi, I have been dusting off some old Palm Pilots (III and V, mostly) and am running into "decayed link" syndrome on most of my searches. I'm finding fragmentary web pages and links to abandoned projects from 7-8 years ago, and only a few things that encompass what I'm working with. I joined the Palm Developers Network, but they don't make older SDK files available for download. I'm really looking for the kit they used to have available that allows one to develop PalmOS 3.3-era stuff - so around 1999 or so, I think. Does anyone on the list have something that sounds like that? If so, please reply to me directly rather than clutter the list with stuff about Palms. To tie this search into recent events, I did see a few, very few, Palms at Dayton. The best price I ran across was a Palm V w/cradle and wall wart for $10 (and another for $15 with box). Unfortunately, that's more than they go for elsewhere. I got home and ran across a Palm Vx at the nearby thrift for $6.99 w/cradle and wall wart (along with a Garmin 12 GPS for $1.91!) Since the DragonBall is essentially a dressed up MC68000, I've always appreciated the PalmPilot innards, but I've never had a need to build my own apps. These days, everyone wants to support the Tungstens and Treos, etc., and have left monochrome Palms in the dust. Thanks for any assistance in locating ancient development tools. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 20 15:46:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:46:35 -0700 Subject: help identifying unknown ISA card In-Reply-To: References: <46500759.4491.123F9C32@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 20, 7 08:31:21 am, Message-ID: <4650513B.16719.13603B11@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 May 2007 at 21:24, Tony Duell wrote: > Why? > > It would be entirely possible to have the software for the 8086 in the > RAM that's on that board. Load the RAM from the ISA bus, then enable the > 8086 (say by de-assertign the reset pin) and let it run. It's obvious to me that I'm having a bad day. Yup, looking at the board, I don't see any ROM/PROM, so you've got a point. I also missed the "TEK" branding. I'll shut up now. :<( Cheers, Chuck From ygehrich at yahoo.com Sun May 20 16:18:03 2007 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 17:18:03 -0400 Subject: How do I go to DIGEST mode? In-Reply-To: <46509DEF.9050109@softjar.se> References: <200705201702.l4KH1PLj031316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46509DEF.9050109@softjar.se> Message-ID: <200705202118.l4KLIQnA042598@keith.ezwind.net> How do I go to DIGEST mode? From ingrammp at earthlink.net Sun May 20 16:48:12 2007 From: ingrammp at earthlink.net (mike ingram) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 14:48:12 -0700 Subject: MGE EPS 2000 UPS available Message-ID: <6FA169E9-89CA-40CE-9E1A-1B0F442AF00D@earthlink.net> Ok, it's not a computer, but it's certainly computer related... i have an MGE systems 50KVA UPS available that we just removed from service yesterday. Unit has been running for 10 years ( we moved up to a newer unit ) under maintenance from MGE. This is a 480VAC 3phase input, charging a string of 40 batteries at about 512 volts, and providing an output of 220 3phase through a step down transformer. It's a big heavy thing, approx 1700 lbs for the UPS and same for the battery box, in a stage of partial disassembly now ( to get it out of the room it was in ). Best part is it's free... just come by and pick up ( liftgate truck is required... its heavy and we don't have a loading dock ) We're located in Tucson AZ. It should be a matter of nuts and bolts and having a good electrician to reassemble this fellow if you wanted to bring the whole thing up or.. if you have one of these, it's a great source of spare parts ( since they aren't made any longer ) Mike From fu3.org at gmail.com Sun May 20 16:53:00 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 23:53:00 +0200 Subject: Any Palm developers on the list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <310f50ab0705201453i366978deka4bc59e0b4be0dd9@mail.gmail.com> Jamie Zawinski (jwz) has a port "Dali Clock" to PalmOS (with sourcecode..) - - Maybe it could be useful to check that code out, if for nothing else to perhaps get clues on compiling, bindings, calls, etc..(?) - http://www.jwz.org/xdaliclock/ Hope this wont get you on the wrong track, -I know it's not what you really asked for. 2007/5/20, Ethan Dicks : > Hi, > > I have been dusting off some old Palm Pilots (III and V, mostly) and > am running into "decayed link" syndrome on most of my searches. I'm > finding fragmentary web pages and links to abandoned projects from 7-8 > years ago, and only a few things that encompass what I'm working with. > I joined the Palm Developers Network, but they don't make older SDK > files available for download. I'm really looking for the kit they > used to have available that allows one to develop PalmOS 3.3-era stuff > - so around 1999 or so, I think. Does anyone on the list have > something that sounds like that? If so, please reply to me directly > rather than clutter the list with stuff about Palms. > > To tie this search into recent events, I did see a few, very few, > Palms at Dayton. The best price I ran across was a Palm V w/cradle > and wall wart for $10 (and another for $15 with box). Unfortunately, > that's more than they go for elsewhere. I got home and ran across a > Palm Vx at the nearby thrift for $6.99 w/cradle and wall wart (along > with a Garmin 12 GPS for $1.91!) > > Since the DragonBall is essentially a dressed up MC68000, I've always > appreciated the PalmPilot innards, but I've never had a need to build > my own apps. These days, everyone wants to support the Tungstens and > Treos, etc., and have left monochrome Palms in the dust. > > Thanks for any assistance in locating ancient development tools. > > -ethan > From lee at geekdot.com Sun May 20 16:59:18 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 23:59:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: help identifying unknown ISA card Message-ID: <4099.90.240.69.65.1179698358.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > If it were a data acquisition board surely it would have ADC's not > DAC's? The use of DAC's surely implies an output board of some kind. A DAC along with a comparator, of which there appear to be a couple on the board, can easily be used for A to D conversion. Lee. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 20 17:06:41 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 15:06:41 -0700 Subject: help identifying unknown ISA card Message-ID: >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > > > > You know, with a 8086 onboard, that thing has to have a ROM/PROM on > > it somewhere with firmware for the 8086. Why not dump it and see if > >Why? > >It would be entirely possible to have the software for the 8086 in the >RAM that's on that board. Load the RAM from the ISA bus, then enable the >8086 (say by de-assertign the reset pin) and let it run. > >I have at least one DSP card for the ISA bus that had no ROM on it. Just >the (ROMless, I hasetn to add) DSP, a lot of high-speed RAM, the analogue >interface chip and buffer amplifiers and an ISA interface circuit. > Hi I have a Modem board with a DSP that has no ROM. It loads from the system. If there is a ROM it would most likely have such a name. Do remember that the 8086 was a full 16 bit bus. There would most likely be 2 ROMs and the ascii may be split across the two to read as on contiguous text from the bus. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. It?s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 20 17:05:27 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 23:05:27 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <46509DEF.9050109@softjar.se> References: <200705201702.l4KH1PLj031316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46509DEF.9050109@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4650C627.2090801@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/05/2007 20:13, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Pete Turnbull skrev: > On 20/05/2007 03:22, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> > I have also read that the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE boards should NEVER > >> > be used together. Can anyone else confirm or deny this? > > > > No reason not to, except that you'd end up with an unusual amount of > > memory (3Mbytes). > What do you mean "unusual amount"? I've been running one 11/83 like that > for the last two years until today actually, when I upgraded to 4 megs. :-) > 3 megs "unusual"? Hah! ;-) I completely agree with you, actually. It's just that DEC sold microPDP-11 systems as standard with memories in exact powers of 2. I've run systems with even more "unusual" amounts, according to what random selection of memory cards I had at the time. I should definitely have put "unusual" in quotes :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 20 19:19:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 17:19:58 -0700 Subject: help identifying unknown ISA card In-Reply-To: References: <200705201704.l4KH2rkc031355@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <4650833E.28118.1423947A@cclist.sydex.com> Does anyone have a collection of old Tektronix catalogues from the mid-80's that might disclose the identity of this beast? Just a suggestion. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun May 20 19:45:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 17:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Rainbow 1000 tower box thing (for shipping) Message-ID: <640370.98491.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> It's in decent shape, but far from perfect. That hinge things has probably seen better days, but it's still holding on. I hate to throw this thing out, but I'm a gonna if no one claims it. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun May 20 19:57:46 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 17:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! Message-ID: <78005.56551.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Rainbow graphics card only $89.63! Give me 10!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-54-15688-RAINBOW-GRAPHICS-CARD-5415688_W0QQitemZ120120562161QQihZ002QQcategoryZ162QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem Honestly, who would be using such a pig these days? The price this guy is asking is indicative of his belief that someone actually NEEDS a card for his lousy 'bow. I ran into a guy in Kentucky who wanted extra TI PC's, being that the software he used for some geological surveys he made a living off of ran on them. But that's a highly unusual application. Anyone know of someone still using a Rainbow? ____________________________________________________________________________________Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun May 20 20:20:30 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 18:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <810872.92925.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> DLT IV tapes aren't that hard to come by if you want to buy them, but if you don't want to fork over cash, they're scarce. I'm hurting for them too. We use DLT IV tapes at work, and when we needed more, we had to buy them - we bought a pack of 20 refurbished tapes for like $160 + shipping. Cheapest price we could find anywhere. -Ian From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun May 20 20:26:05 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 21:26:05 -0400 Subject: DEC Rainbow 1000 tower box thing (for shipping) In-Reply-To: <640370.98491.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <640370.98491.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6112EFFE-D382-4963-ACC7-1BBC711C1CEA@colourfull.com> Chris, Is this shippable to New Baltimore, MI. 48047 ? If so, I'm interested. Rob ps. Already shipped my cash for the books. On May 20, 2007, at 8:45 PM, Chris M wrote: > It's in decent shape, but far from perfect. That hinge > things has probably seen better days, but it's still > holding on. I hate to throw this thing out, but I'm a > gonna if no one claims it. > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________ > Bored stiff? Loosen up... > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. > http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun May 20 20:28:23 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 21:28:23 -0400 Subject: Fwd: DEC Rainbow 1000 tower box thing (for shipping) References: <6112EFFE-D382-4963-ACC7-1BBC711C1CEA@colourfull.com> Message-ID: Sorry, meant to go to Chris privately. Rob Begin forwarded message: > From: Robert Borsuk > Date: May 20, 2007 9:26:05 PM GMT-04:00 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow 1000 tower box thing (for shipping) > > Chris, > Is this shippable to New Baltimore, MI. 48047 ? > > If so, I'm interested. > > Rob From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 20 21:28:40 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 21:28:40 -0500 Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: <78005.56551.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <78005.56551.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705201928i3b7e8276pbeb98df4c0ad6e4c@mail.gmail.com> "it_equipment_xpress" is one of the most egregious gougers on ebay. And one of the worst at providing useful descriptions. On 5/20/07, Chris M wrote: > Honestly, who would be using such a pig these days? > The price this guy is asking is indicative of his > belief that someone actually NEEDS a card for his > lousy 'bow. I ran into a guy in Kentucky who wanted > extra TI PC's, being that the software he used for > some geological surveys he made a living off of ran on > them. But that's a highly unusual application. Anyone > know of someone still using a Rainbow? From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 20 22:03:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 20:03:06 -0700 Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705201928i3b7e8276pbeb98df4c0ad6e4c@mail.gmail.com> References: <78005.56551.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com>, <51ea77730705201928i3b7e8276pbeb98df4c0ad6e4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4650A97A.10797.14B8EFEC@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 May 2007 at 21:28, Jason T wrote: > "it_equipment_xpress" is one of the most egregious gougers on ebay. > And one of the worst at providing useful descriptions. Please, it does no good to complain about a seller's prices. If no one buys from him/her/them, that will send a much louder message. --Chuck From fernande at internet1.net Sun May 20 22:14:43 2007 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 23:14:43 -0400 Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: <78005.56551.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <78005.56551.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46510EA3.7030509@internet1.net> Chris M wrote: > I ran into a guy in Kentucky who wanted > extra TI PC's, Got an email address for the guy? I have a TIPC that I'd like to unload. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun May 20 22:24:57 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 20:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... Message-ID: <911951.77528.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Eh... another in a series of things _not_ to put into a Chevy Venture, this time featuring... A Vax 11/750 and a Vax 6210. Fortunately, this isn't going to be as bad to remove from the van as those CDC drives were. I just need to talk some friends into helping me. But, I do want to try and get this 750 running soon. The TU58 has a bad roller (suprise, suprise) so I'll have to get some of that tubing I saw mentioned in the archives. But, I have no cartridges, so it does me little good to fix it... Any source of boot images for this critter so I can boot it with a tu58 simulator on a PC? Also, what do I really need in order to boot and install an OS, say, NetBSD? At the moment, I have no disks (anyone have a Unibus SMD controller?), or for that matter, a working, compatible tape drive (no pertec controller...). I assume that the machine needs to boot initally from TU58 every time, and then after that, it can bootstrap from disk or tape. I found the 11/750 FAQ, but it doesn't have a section for "I dragged home a big heavy Vax, now what?". Thanks! -Ian From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun May 20 22:38:28 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 20:38:28 -0700 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: <911951.77528.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <911951.77528.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46511434.6060204@shiresoft.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Eh... another in a series of things _not_ to put into > a Chevy Venture, this time featuring... A Vax 11/750 > and a Vax 6210. > > Fortunately, this isn't going to be as bad to remove > from the van as those CDC drives were. I just need to > talk some friends into helping me. > > But, I do want to try and get this 750 running soon. > The TU58 has a bad roller (suprise, suprise) so I'll > have to get some of that tubing I saw mentioned in the > archives. But, I have no cartridges, so it does me > little good to fix it... Any source of boot images for > this critter so I can boot it with a tu58 simulator on > a PC? > > Also, what do I really need in order to boot and > install an OS, say, NetBSD? At the moment, I have no > disks (anyone have a Unibus SMD controller?), or for > that matter, a working, compatible tape drive (no > pertec controller...). I assume that the machine needs > to boot initally from TU58 every time, and then after > that, it can bootstrap from disk or tape. I found the > 11/750 FAQ, but it doesn't have a section for "I > dragged home a big heavy Vax, now what?". > I have some emulex SMD unibus controllers. Contact me off list for the details. I also just recently came into a quantity of TU58 dual drives (4 pairs if I recall). I don't know their condition. I *may* have some TU58 tapes. I'll have to check on them. I *do* know someone who has a boot tape for an 11/751. I don't know if he's willing to make a copy (or if he's able to...but it shouldn't be too hard). > Thanks! > > -Ian > > > -- TTFN - Guy From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 20 22:38:46 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 23:38:46 -0400 Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: <20070520075515.C4908BA43E9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20070520075515.C4908BA43E9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <46511446.1060105@compsys.to> >Tim Shoppa wrote: >"Ethan Dicks" wrote: > > >>I guess another way to phrase this might be, does anyone on the list >>know of a source of extremely inexpensive piles of DLT IV or SDLT >>tapes - either density media quickly adds up to more than the present >>cost of drives, so in the end, it's the weight of the tapes that's the >>limiting factor. >> >> > >For data backup, it's a false economy to compare the cost of the >backup media to the cost of other backup media or to the cost >of gas or to the cost of tea in China. > >The true comparison is the cost of making a backup vs the cost of >not making a backup. > >For more than a decade folks have argued about the cost of backup media >vs another backup media, and ignored the cost vs value of doing >the backup at all. The cost of the media has been in the noise >compared to the effort involved for a long long time, at least for >those of us in the West. (Maybe things are different in former >Eastern Block countries or subsaharan Africa, not that living at >the South Pole might distort any of our senses of economics!) > >For almost any application, the convenience vs inconvenience of the >backup is going to drive any consideration more than the cost of the >media. DLT does have a very good advantage over others in convenience >in that there is a good (although not perfect) history of drives >being backwards compatible over ridiculously long time spans. > >There are OTHER factors - I made backups onto 9-tracks into the late >90's mostly as a justification for keeping dozens of drives around, not >so much because it was the best or right way! If you want to pick >up the tapes as a way of justifying keeping the DLT drive around, >that's great: well into the late 90's I was still stockpiling vast >quantities of Blackwatch tape (I mean, thousands of tape in a haul) >just as part of my spinning tape reel obsession :-). But once the other >non-economic factors come in, you have to acknowledge that you are >no longer making decisions based solely on some hypothetical economic >factor and abandon the economic comparisons. > Jerome Fine replies: One other factor, which to a major extent may also be considered convenience, is the time to perform the backup as well as the recovery. While I admit to knowing far too little about the Windows (jeck) system I use, there unfortunately seems to be little choice unless I want to spend the next year or two getting up to speed with a system I dislike in the first place OR switching too something more reasonable, but also having to completely set up and support it myself. But I have found that using Ghost (with a FAT32 file structure - this allows the backup to also produce a separate ascii list of all 12,000 files) to perform backups solves most of my problems. Since I have only 2 GB of files on my C: drive, the backup takes only 5 minutes. In addition, the restore takes only 3 minutes and I frequently make use of this minimal restore time to use applications that (from my point of view) mess up the file system - after which I simply do a restore. One additional note. Since the backup image is compressed to less than 1 GB and drive capacity of 100 GB is so inexpensive, I don't even bother with tape, but instead use 2 extra hard drives, each if which has a copy of the backup image. And while I have only had to make use of having BOTH backup drives about once a year over the past 5 years (most recently when both backup drives failed within about 4 months of each other), the extra redundancy of having 2 backup drives has proved to be worth the cost of the extra drive hundreds of times over. The other aspect that I consider worth mentioning is that I also save a permanent copy of the backup image file from the end of each month on a DVD after which I erase all the previous months of backups from the backup hard drives. While I realize that my solution will not apply to systems which have more than about 10 GB of files to backup, with my situation it works very well indeed. Note that at one time when I was using hard drives of only 600 MB, I did use a DLT tape of a limited capacity (only 256 MB which required 3 tapes for a complete backup). Since I also verified each tape against the original data, those backups took the better part of a whole day. Now with Ghost and a hard drive, the initial backup takes 5 minutes and making that second copy takes an additional minute. I call that convenience. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 20 22:39:06 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 23:39:06 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/8x memory cards. In-Reply-To: <46503E35.3010209@softjar.se> References: <46503E35.3010209@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4651145A.5040105@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > I just verified that M8637-Ex cards works fine in both 11/83 and 11/84 > systems. The same goes for M8637-Dx cards. > I don't think I have any M8637-Bx or -Cx cards, so I can't try that. > > So to make it clear: MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE works fine in both Q-bus > and Unibus systems. Jerome Fine replies: Thank you for confirming the information. Also to Peter and everyone else for the discussion. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 20 22:41:03 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 23:41:03 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <46505940.2060902@nktelco.net> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> <464276C7.2080308@nktelco.net> <464F50F7.4080509@nktelco.net> <464FB662.4040900@compsys.to> <46505940.2060902@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <465114CF.3000107@compsys.to> >>C H Dickman wrote: >>> I then took a 3.5" NEC D3142 drive that came out of an old NEC PC >>> and it formatted in the Pro just fine. >> > >> >Jerome Fine replies: >> >> I have heard that it is possible to format an RD52 on the PRO, >> in addition to the RD51, so I am not surprised. How many blocks >> are on the NEC D3142 drive. > > > The drive itself is about 42MB. The RT-11 filesystem on the disk has > 65535 or around that number. Jerome Fine replies: All device under RT-11 have a maximum of 65536 blocks. However, RT-11 is set up to use only 65535 blocks since that is all that fits into a 16 bit word. In actual practice, it is quite easy to use the extra block, but in almost all cases, it is not worth the extra effort since none of the RT-11 utilities will support you. If you have V05.03 of RT-11 or later, you might be able to use those additional 10 MB of hard drive. The command: SHOW DEVICE:DW might provide the list of available devices in the same manner as MSCP devices for the DU.SYS device driver. If you can wait a few days, I will also have a look at the code in DW.MAC and RESORC. However, the more I think about it, the less likely I feel that DEC would have allowed RT-11 partitions on the PRO hard drives. >> Since there is no documentation >> on the PRO hardware, can anyone suggest anything? > > The Pro Tech Manuals are on bitsavers. Can anyone identify the actual files on bitsavers? Is there anything there about the hard drive (is DW the correct name) being partitioned if it is larger than 32 MB? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 20 22:42:03 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 23:42:03 -0400 Subject: New Ebay listing -DEC compatible? stuff In-Reply-To: <000001c79af2$7bf2c7a0$1401010a@Rhyme> References: <000001c79af2$7bf2c7a0$1401010a@Rhyme> Message-ID: <4651150B.8080704@compsys.to> >Robert Armstrong wrote: >>RARE EXTERNAL HARD DRIVE & 8" FLOPPY SYSTEM RARE (#330121685672) >>Chrislin OEMed AED Qbus disc/floppy controllers. >> >> > > The DSD 880 was also a nice hard disk/floppy external drive unit that did >RL/RX emulation, so the idea's not all that unique. > > This one looks like it'd be the perfect companion for an 11/03 system, but >as Al says, without the controller card it's just a doorstop. > >Bob > Jerome Fine replies: If you can find the controller, you will probably also find that the RX03 (if I remember correctly) supports 22-bit addresses via the hardware registers. I never bothered, but the RL02 emulation might also support 22-bit address via the hardware registers. If I remember correctly, the DSD 880 did NOT support 22-bit address for either the RL02 or the RX03 emulation. However, it is quite possible if you are running the RT-11 RT11XM monitor to support a bounce buffer when the RX03 is being used. DEC never supported 22-bit addresses for its RX02 floppy, although, as mentioned above, the RXX.SYS could be modified to include a bounce buffer when 22-bit addresses were required. DEC also had both 18-bit and 22-bit controllers for the RL02 drive. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 20 22:44:56 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 23:44:56 -0400 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: <911951.77528.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <911951.77528.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465115B8.7090003@atarimuseum.com> If you need TU58 boot tapes, let me know Ian, you can borrow my set if you need. Curt Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Eh... another in a series of things _not_ to put into > a Chevy Venture, this time featuring... A Vax 11/750 > and a Vax 6210. > > Fortunately, this isn't going to be as bad to remove > from the van as those CDC drives were. I just need to > talk some friends into helping me. > > But, I do want to try and get this 750 running soon. > The TU58 has a bad roller (suprise, suprise) so I'll > have to get some of that tubing I saw mentioned in the > archives. But, I have no cartridges, so it does me > little good to fix it... Any source of boot images for > this critter so I can boot it with a tu58 simulator on > a PC? > > Also, what do I really need in order to boot and > install an OS, say, NetBSD? At the moment, I have no > disks (anyone have a Unibus SMD controller?), or for > that matter, a working, compatible tape drive (no > pertec controller...). I assume that the machine needs > to boot initally from TU58 every time, and then after > that, it can bootstrap from disk or tape. I found the > 11/750 FAQ, but it doesn't have a section for "I > dragged home a big heavy Vax, now what?". > > Thanks! > > -Ian > > From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 21 01:19:25 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 08:19:25 +0200 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: <911951.77528.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848840B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus > Sent: maandag 21 mei 2007 5:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Well,now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more > big(ish) iron... > > Eh... another in a series of things _not_ to put into a Chevy > Venture, this time featuring... A Vax 11/750 and a Vax 6210. > > [...snip...] > > I assume that the machine needs to boot initally from TU58 > every time, and then after that, it can bootstrap from disk > or tape. I found the 11/750 FAQ, but it doesn't have a > section for "I dragged home a big heavy Vax, now what?". > > Thanks! > > -Ian AFAIK, only the VAX-11/730 needed the TU58 to boot. I heard the boot tape loaded the microcode. The VAX-11/750 (I have one) can boot from any device available in hardware, that is any UNIBUS peripheral. In line with the "heavy" stuff, the UDA50 with RAxx drives are nice, but very power-hungry and really heavy. The newer RA drives are not that power hungry, have more capacity, but are still heavy, although easier to carry :-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From bear at typewritten.org Mon May 21 01:42:55 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 23:42:55 -0700 Subject: Mac IIfx SCSI filter & black terminator Message-ID: I need one of each of the above. Anybody have an extra they can part with? Thanks! ok bear From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon May 21 01:46:20 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 02:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: <20070520075515.C4908BA43E9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20070520075515.C4908BA43E9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200705210705.DAA20886@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > For data backup, it's a false economy to compare the cost of the > backup media to the cost of other backup media or to the cost of gas > or to the cost of tea in China. > The true comparison is the cost of making a backup vs the cost of not > making a backup. Not really - if you've decided to do backups (or actually even if you're only considering doing backups), there is nothing wrong with trying to find the cheapest way consistent with your particular environment's threat model and risk tolerance levels. And *that* is where comparing the cost of backup media to the cost of other backup media comes in. (For example, it's entirely plausible a site would decide "if we can get media for under $0.01/GB then it's worth backing this up, otherwise forget it, we'll just recreate it if we need to".) > For more than a decade folks have argued about the cost of backup > media vs another backup media, and ignored the cost vs value of doing > the backup at all. Yes, this is..suboptimal. But just because you shouldn't ignore thing #1 doesn't mean that ignoring thing #2 instead is right. > The cost of the media has been in the noise compared to the effort > involved for a long long time, at least for those of us in the West. I disagree. At work, for example, we write (some of our) backups to real tapes. I'm the person who usually changes the tapes. I just did a back-of-the-envelope estimate, and I figure it costs us about a dollar each time I have to change a tape. So, positing the existence of tapes small enough that a run took two (it currently takes one, and I don't know whether smaller tapes exist for that drive), a dollar or two per tape is the kind of price differential that could tip the scales whether it's cheaper to go with two small tapes or one big one. Not down in the noise at all. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Mon May 21 07:21:27 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 12:21:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! Message-ID: While $89.93 is quite an oddball price, I wouldn't say its outrageous. This graphics card is for sale in an eBay store, not on an auction, so it will just site there until someone buys it. Its conceivable that there is a Rainbow or two left somewhere in some forgotten industrial application where replacement is not an option without some extreme costs related to it. I've seen Rainbow parts on sale for much higher, mostly from DEC resellers. I still use a Rainbow, and there was a time when my stock of parts was much lower that I may have considered purchasing this card at this price. You have to remember that there is some cost to maintaining a stock of obscure parts that probably only a handful of people in the world would even ever consider purchasing. If he sells it for that price, though, then I think i'll consider getting into the used Rainbow parts business ;-). Jeff Armstrong jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon May 21 08:02:20 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 09:02:20 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <465114CF.3000107@compsys.to> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> <464276C7.2080308@nktelco.net> <464F50F7.4080509@nktelco.net> <464FB662.4040900@compsys.to> <46505940.2060902@nktelco.net> <465114CF.3000107@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4651985C.9020107@nktelco.net> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I will also have a look at the code in DW.MAC > and RESORC. However, the more I think about it, the less > likely I feel that DEC would have allowed RT-11 partitions > on the PRO hard drives. I think it only supports one partition. Although a table lists the sizes of all the drive options, the number of blocks just maxes out at 65535. >>> Since there is no documentation >>> on the PRO hardware, can anyone suggest anything? >> >> The Pro Tech Manuals are on bitsavers. > > Can anyone identify the actual files on bitsavers? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/ Those might not be what you are looking for though, no information about the software is included. -chuck From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon May 21 01:23:43 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 07:23:43 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F40@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi There seems to be some differing views as to how the boards would be arranged in an 11/94 to use 11/84 CPU Board and memory. I'll describe the 11/94 box I have. The box has label saying 11/94-EF The first three slots in the first nine slot backplan have four edge connectors. In the space where the other two edge connectors would have been are IDC connectors for ribbon cables going to the front panel. The rest of the slots (6) in first nine slot backplane have six edge connectors. The second nine slot backplane has nine slots with six edge connectors in each. The forth slot has the M8191 Unibus controller in it. The main discussion seems to be which comes first the cpu or the memory. There is also an issue around, are the first three slots a Q-Bus or not? Currently my understanding is any M8190 CPU and any M8637 memory So Slot one: M8190 Or M8190-AB 15Mhz Or M8190-AE 18Mhz Slot two/three MSV11-JD (1Mb) x 2 or MSV11-JE (2Mb) x 2 So can we get to a consensus as to which boards in what order are known to work? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 20 May 2007 20:14 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: The Last of The Line Pete Turnbull skrev: On 20/05/2007 03:22, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> > I have also read that the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE boards should NEVER >> > be used together. Can anyone else confirm or deny this? > > No reason not to, except that you'd end up with an unusual amount of > memory (3Mbytes). It certainly won't hurt anything, though of course > you would need to set the start address of the lower board to the > correct value. It's settable to any 16KB (8KW) boundary. What do you mean "unusual amount"? I've been running one 11/83 like that for the last two years until today actually, when I upgraded to 4 megs. :-) I used to run my 11/84 like that as well. Currently it's shut down. Haven't had time to organize my computer room after I moved, so it just sits there... >> > I suspect that 3 * MSV11-JD boards may be used in a BA123 box with 4 >> > ABCD slots, but since I don't have any MSV11-JD boards, let alone 3 >> > of them, I can't verify this. > > I don't recall ever trying *that*, but it too would work, so long as you > set the start address of each board correctly, and again you'd end up > with 3Mbytes, which is an unusual amount. The manual just says you can > use "one or more MSV11-J memory modules", without mentioning size or > maximum number. 3 megs "unusual"? Hah! ;-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 21 03:34:10 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 10:34:10 +0200 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <200705210330.l4L3TfXQ039942@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705210330.l4L3TfXQ039942@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46515982.2020006@softjar.se> Patrick Finnegan skrev: > On Saturday 19 May 2007 06:35, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > "Glen Slick" skrev: > > > > On 5/17/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > >> > OK we have a change > > > >> > > > > >>> > >PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 > > > >>> > >joe lang > > > >> > > > > >> > Rod > > > > > > > > From my understanding of this after looking at various manuals this > > > > is true for an 11/73 or 11/83 with an H9872 backplane in a BA23 > > > > box, but not for an 11/84. > > > > > > Correct. So if people could stop assuming that an 11/84 have a q-bus, > > > we would get a long way towards clearing this up. > > > If people don't know about the 11/84 or 11/94, don't write answers > > > based on your knowledge of the q-bus based KDJ11 setups. > > My "11/94" (which was an upgraded 11/84, and which I got CPU-less) > actually does have a QBUS... it's got an Able Qniverter to hook the > UNIBUS in the chassis to the QBUS from the CPU, and both QBUS and UNIBUS > peripherals. > > Does anyone know how common that was? I don't see any evidence pointing > towards it not being designed that way by DEC. The chassis is DEC > badged, with a label on the side indicating that it was upgraded from an > 11/84 to be an 11/94 at some point. Pat, what you have is what I would describe as an 11/93 with an Qniverter. That will not be exactly the same thing as an 11/94. The KTJ11-B, which is DECs Unibus adapter, have some special signals to the CPU telling it that the KTJ11 is there, and that changes the behaviour of the Qbus, according to the manuals. I haven't said that the wiring of the memory slots in an 11/84 (or 11/94) isn't the same as in a Q/CD backplane. It must (by default) be atleast very similar to a Q/CD backplane. However, there are some special signals, and also some signals that change behaviour in an 11/84 and 11/94, according to the manuals. And that will only happen if you have a KTJ11-B in there. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 21 03:42:21 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 10:42:21 +0200 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <200705210330.l4L3TfXQ039942@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705210330.l4L3TfXQ039942@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46515B6D.1080404@softjar.se> Pete Turnbull skrev: > On 19/05/2007 11:35, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > "Glen Slick" skrev: > > > > >>> > >PMI memory goes in slots 1 and 2, CPU goes in 3 > > > > > From my understanding of this after looking at various manuals this is > > > > true for an 11/73 or 11/83 with an H9872 backplane in a BA23 box, but > > > > not for an 11/84. > > BA23 is H9278, actually. Doh! The numbers keep getting twisted around. :-) > > > Correct. So if people could stop assuming that an 11/84 have a q-bus, we > > > would get a long way towards clearing this up. > > Except that it does have a (short) QBus :-) Wire-wise, yes. Protocol wise the manuals imply that some signals don't behave the same, even though they are named the same. I haven't had time to really analyze this to see what signals actually change, and in which way, so I'm mostly quoting the manual on this. > OK, we're agreed that the standard config for an 11/83 puts the memeory > before the processor, and the standard config for an 11/84 puts the > memory after the processor :-) Yes. That we agree on, and that is probably the most important piece. > The P-series 11/84 which I've found described in one of the later 11/84 > manuals used an MSV11-R, which is a normal QBus memory, not PMI. Well, according to the field guide, that *is* PMI memory. :-) But not ECC memory like the MSV11-J. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 21 08:19:54 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 09:19:54 -0400 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848840B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <911951.77528.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848840B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 5/21/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Ian wrote: > > I assume that the machine needs to boot initally from TU58 > > every time, and then after that, it can bootstrap from disk > > or tape. I found the 11/750 FAQ, but it doesn't have a > > section for "I dragged home a big heavy Vax, now what?". Once you have decided it's safe to power on and all of that, the first thing I'd do is to determine what boot PROMs you have (D, I think was typically TU58), and see what's easy to boot from. If your machine had a UDA50 on it, there's probably a DU boot PROM which will also boot, ISTR, an RUX50 (yes... you could stick floppies on an 11/750 - we did it to be able to cut diskettes for our customers - I think it was a very expensive option at the time). To load any OS onto a blank 11/750, you'll need images/tapes with the standalone restore program for that version of the OS... they changed on a frequent basis. I won't say it's impossible to do it with the wrong one, but it's easier all around if you match the versions up. I really liked working with the 11/750. I used one every day for most of the time between 1984 and 1993, and did all of the hardware upkeep on it for the last few years it was installed. As a college boy/punk kid, I installed the 2MB to 8MB myself (we decided not to drop the money on upgrading it above 8MB). It was OK for 20-50 users with 8MB, but we mostly ran MAIL, MASS-11 (word processing), and compiled C programs with it. Oh, yeah... lots of EMPIRE. Had to keep EMPIRE on it for the boss ;-) > AFAIK, only the VAX-11/730 needed the TU58 to boot. Yes, mostly (as in, yes, the 11/730 needs it, and mostly, the 11/750 does not need it). > I heard the boot tape loaded the microcode. For the 11/730 (and 11/725), yes, the microcode comes off the TU58 every time you power up. Once the microcode is loaded, you can boot without a tape mounted, but in practice, folks just left their boot tapes mounted. For the 11/750, the only time we ever used the console TU58 was when we were installing a new OS from scratch and had to load the Standalone Backup tapes (or the equivalent for Ultrix or BSD), or after a certain point in our VMS usage when it was recommended (but not absolutely essential) to load a microcode patch when we powered up. Considering that machine stayed up for months between power cycles (and weeks between reboots), it didn't happen very often. An unpatched 11/750 should load VMS < 4.4 just fine (but check the SPRs). After that is when I get a little fuzzy. We never experienced any strange machine checks, but our FSE recommended we patch our microcode (recommended as in "this has to be loaded for me to work on the machine") I don't think we bothered to load the microcode patch when we swapped over to Ultrix 1.1 or 2.0 on it. We ran 4.0BSD and 4.1BSD on that same machine years before that patch came out, so it wasn't an issue. > The VAX-11/750 (I have one) can > boot from any device available in hardware, that is any UNIBUS > peripheral. Not just UNIBUS - MASSBUS, too. There's a DR boot PROM out there - we used it to boot our SI9900 w/160MB Fujitsu that emulated 2x RM03. > In line with the "heavy" stuff, the UDA50 with RAxx > drives are nice, but very power-hungry and really heavy. The > newer RA drives are not that power hungry, have more capacity, > but are still heavy, although easier to carry :-) The RA70 series are hardly power-hungry, but are a bit thin on the ground. I have a couple of RA70s that some day I'd like to mount inside one of my 11/750s so I can have an in-cabinet machine. Of course what I'd _really_ like is a Unibus SCSI controller, but those are a bit rare. There's also the option of 3rd-party SDI drives. I've posted about this one before, but I have a 5.25"-tall rackable disk box 1/2 populated with one SDI bridge board and two 600MB ESDI drives. Compared to the power draw of an RA81, this is a pittance (5.25" FH drives are on average, what, 50W? 60W?), and 3 times the capacity. -ethan From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon May 21 08:44:27 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 09:44:27 -0400 Subject: Free Computers in New Haven CT. Message-ID: <4651A23B.6030208@sbcglobal.net> *** Please reply to me directly. I'm way behind on my ClassicCMP reading... For various reasons, none of them good, I have a couple of computers, and some cables & parts, that _must_ disappear from my house ASAP. At this point, I'm not worried if I get anything for them. But I won't turn it down cash (or good beer) in return. I'd rather not have to ship them, having lack of time. Here's a quick list of the machines. IIRC, they don't have HDDs. More info available upon request. - Mac SE/30, with network card not installed. - Cardinal PC10. 386 CPU, looks like a Mac SE, with a 10"(?) color screen. - Digital Multia. - Digital Alpha 200MHz? with plans on how to adapt an ATX power supply for it. IIRC, there might even be a ready made adapter. - Dell Optiplex P4 1GHz, 512MB RAM. Spare MB w/CPU, PCI riser & power suppply. - Compaq PIII 600(?) small desktop, 256MB RAM (?) - SuperMicro P4DP6 server class system, 1GB RAM, 2GHz Xeon (can take 2). Full tower case, power supply. - Box o cables - power, SCSI, serial, paralell. - random parts. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 21 09:44:36 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 16:44:36 +0200 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488415@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: maandag 21 mei 2007 15:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Well,now I've gone and done it... Dragged home > more big(ish) iron... > > [...snip...] > I really liked working with the 11/750. I used one every day > for most of the time between 1984 and 1993, and did all of > the hardware upkeep on it for the last few years it was > installed. As a college boy/punk kid, I installed the 2MB to > 8MB myself (we decided not to drop the money on upgrading it > above 8MB). This weekend I think I will buy the L0022 memory controller plus two M7199 (4Mb) memory boards to replace the other controller and 1 Mb memory boards. Got 6 of those, so after the memory upgrade I will have two spare 1 Mb boards ... have not decided yet *if* I will spend the $100 for the three boards, or just keep the 6 Mb that are installed now. > It was OK for 20-50 users with 8MB, but we mostly ran MAIL, > MASS-11 (word processing), and compiled C programs with it. > Oh, yeah... lots of EMPIRE. Had to keep EMPIRE on it for the > boss ;-) What's EMPIRE? A game? Would be a nice reason to fire up the VAX more often :-) > > I heard the boot tape loaded the microcode. > > For the 11/730 (and 11/725), yes, the microcode comes off the > TU58 every time you power up. Once the microcode is loaded, > you can boot without a tape mounted, but in practice, folks > just left their boot tapes mounted. And that explains why many TU58 rollers have a "D" shape ... > > The VAX-11/750 (I have one) can > > boot from any device available in hardware, that is any UNIBUS > > peripheral. > > Not just UNIBUS - MASSBUS, too. There's a DR boot PROM out > there - we used it to boot our SI9900 w/160MB Fujitsu that > emulated 2x RM03. True. As with the L0022/M7199, I can get an L0007 MASSBUS interface for $40. It is just a nice to have ... although I have two RM03's, I don't think I will connect them to the VAX. I intend to connect them to the PDP-11/70, but never say never ... > The RA70 series are hardly power-hungry, but are a bit thin > on the ground. I have a couple of RA70s that some day I'd > like to mount inside one of my 11/750s so I can have an > in-cabinet machine. Of course what I'd _really_ like is a > Unibus SCSI controller, but those are a bit rare. I could say "me too", but OTOH, a VAX with RA81's does look nice or at least impressive :-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon May 21 10:08:15 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 11:08:15 -0400 Subject: Free Computers in New Haven CT. In-Reply-To: <4651A23B.6030208@sbcglobal.net> References: <4651A23B.6030208@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4651B5DF.7050806@sbcglobal.net> *** Update: the items that have been spoken for already are noted. If something happens, I'll contact the second person that wanted the item. :) Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > *** Please reply to me directly. I'm way behind on my ClassicCMP reading... > > For various reasons, none of them good, I have a couple of > computers, and some cables & parts, that _must_ disappear from my house > ASAP. At this point, I'm not worried if I get anything for them. But I > won't turn it down cash (or good beer) in return. I'd rather not have to > ship them, having lack of time. > Here's a quick list of the machines. IIRC, they don't have HDDs. > More info available upon request. > > - Mac SE/30, with network card not installed. > - Cardinal PC10. 386 CPU, looks like a Mac SE, with a 10"(?) color screen. TAKEN: > - Digital Multia. > - Digital Alpha 200MHz? with plans on how to adapt an ATX power supply > for it. IIRC, there might even be a ready made adapter. TAKEN: > - Dell Optiplex P4 1GHz, 512MB RAM. Spare MB w/CPU, PCI riser & power > suppply. TAKEN: > - Compaq PIII 600(?) small desktop, 256MB RAM (?) TAKEN: > - SuperMicro P4DP6 server class system, 1GB RAM, 2GHz Xeon (can take 2). > Full tower case, power supply. TAKEN: > - Box o cables - power, SCSI, serial, paralell. > - random parts. > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 21 10:10:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 11:10:36 -0400 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488415@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488415@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 5/21/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > This weekend I think I will buy the L0022 memory controller plus > two M7199 (4Mb) memory boards to replace the other controller and > 1 Mb memory boards. Got 6 of those, so after the memory upgrade > I will have two spare 1 Mb boards ... have not decided yet *if* > I will spend the $100 for the three boards, or just keep the 6 Mb > that are installed now. If I were trying to use a 11/750 for anything intense, I'd seriously consider upgrading it to 14MB, but for a low number of users (1?) 8MB goes a long way. > > Oh, yeah... lots of EMPIRE. Had to keep EMPIRE on it for the > > boss ;-) > > What's EMPIRE? A game? > Would be a nice reason to fire up the VAX more often :-) EMPIRE is one of the best VMS games ever. It's you vs the computer in a land, air, sea battle for a continent and/or a few islands. You build up armies, march across the land, and conquer neutral or enemy-occupied cities. Unless you demand total annihilation, I recommend accepting the computer's surrender - IMO, if you get him backed that far into a corner, you are only about 50% of the way to tracking down his last man and killing it. You'll win, but it will take a long time to find his last few units. It's a bit like Civilization without the unrest and the wonders of the world, etc... just military units. Plays great on an 11/750 and VT100. > True. As with the L0022/M7199, I can get an L0007 MASSBUS interface > for $40. It is just a nice to have ... although I have two RM03's, > I don't think I will connect them to the VAX. I intend to connect > them to the PDP-11/70, but never say never ... Does that $40 include the cab kit? If you want to run large pedestal drives on your VAX, the RM03 isn't a bad one to use, but the MB/KhW ratio is a bit low. The good news is that if you have a few packs, you could use the RM03s with _either_ the VAX or your 11/70, just move the cables and swap the packs. > I could say "me too", but OTOH, a VAX with RA81's does look nice > or at least impressive :-) The first RA81 I ever saw was on an 11/750. It was pretty fresh when I started working at that place - they'd just dropped $26,000 on the drive. I still have it. It still works (or at least the last time I spun it up, it did). There's nothing inherently "wrong" with an RA81 (except for the ones with bad glue ;-), but at 1000W for 450MB, I'd rather have a smaller drive and spend the electricity budget on the CPU. If you _really_ want the 11/750 experience, though, I gotta recommend MASSBUS disks. We booted ours from the SI9900, and had a Fuji Eagle and an RA81 for data disks - nearly a Gig between 3 spindles in 1988! -ethan From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon May 21 10:22:50 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 11:22:50 -0400 Subject: Any Palm developers on the list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070521111721.03723c58@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >Since the DragonBall is essentially a dressed up MC68000, I've always >appreciated the PalmPilot innards, but I've never had a need to build >my own apps. These days, everyone wants to support the Tungstens and >Treos, etc., and have left monochrome Palms in the dust. Ontopically, get in contact with John Hogerhuis at www.bitchin100.com - he wrote DLPilot as a DeskLink replacement (Tandy Portable Disk Drive emulator for the Model 100/102/200 series laptops) for the Palm series machines and it runs on PalmOS 3.3. He may (probably?) have access to SDKs & info from that era machines. His email can be found just above the monochrome screenshots for DLPilot here: http://bitchin100.com/dlpilot/ HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon May 21 10:25:06 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 11:25:06 -0400 Subject: Free Computers in New Haven CT. In-Reply-To: <4651B5DF.7050806@sbcglobal.net> References: <4651A23B.6030208@sbcglobal.net> <4651B5DF.7050806@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Dave, Would you please let me know where you are? I am evaluating my desire for the Cardinal PC10, depending how much the shipping would be. Thank you! vax, 9000 On 5/21/07, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > *** Update: the items that have been spoken for already are > noted. If > something happens, I'll contact the second person that wanted the item. :) > > Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > *** Please reply to me directly. I'm way behind on my ClassicCMP > reading... > > > > For various reasons, none of them good, I have a couple of > > computers, and some cables & parts, that _must_ disappear from my house > > ASAP. At this point, I'm not worried if I get anything for them. But I > > won't turn it down cash (or good beer) in return. I'd rather not have to > > ship them, having lack of time. > > Here's a quick list of the machines. IIRC, they don't have HDDs. > > More info available upon request. > > > > - Mac SE/30, with network card not installed. > > - Cardinal PC10. 386 CPU, looks like a Mac SE, with a 10"(?) color > screen. > TAKEN: > - Digital Multia. > > - Digital Alpha 200MHz? with plans on how to adapt an ATX power supply > > for it. IIRC, there might even be a ready made adapter. > TAKEN: > - Dell Optiplex P4 1GHz, 512MB RAM. Spare MB w/CPU, PCI riser & > power > > suppply. > TAKEN: > - Compaq PIII 600(?) small desktop, 256MB RAM (?) > TAKEN: > - SuperMicro P4DP6 server class system, 1GB RAM, 2GHz Xeon (can > take 2). > > Full tower case, power supply. > TAKEN: > - Box o cables - power, SCSI, serial, paralell. > > - random parts. > > > > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > > "From there to here, > From here to there, > Funny things > are everywhere." > --- Dr. Seuss > From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon May 21 10:26:37 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 11:26:37 -0400 Subject: Free Computers in New Haven CT. In-Reply-To: References: <4651A23B.6030208@sbcglobal.net> <4651B5DF.7050806@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Sorry! got the wrong destination. On 5/21/07, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 21 10:33:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 11:33:34 -0400 Subject: Any Palm developers on the list? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070521111721.03723c58@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070521111721.03723c58@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 5/21/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Ontopically, get in contact with John Hogerhuis at www.bitchin100.com - he > wrote DLPilot as a DeskLink replacement (Tandy Portable Disk Drive emulator > for the Model 100/102/200 series laptops) for the Palm series machines and > it runs on PalmOS 3.3. Thanks for the tip, Roger, -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 21 11:27:39 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 17:27:39 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <46515982.2020006@softjar.se> References: <200705210330.l4L3TfXQ039942@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46515982.2020006@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4651C87B.5080401@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/05/2007 09:34, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Patrick Finnegan skrev: > Pat, what you have is what I would describe as an 11/93 with an > Qniverter. That will not be exactly the same thing as an 11/94. > The KTJ11-B, which is DECs Unibus adapter, have some special signals to > the CPU telling it that the KTJ11 is there, and that changes the > behaviour of the Qbus, according to the manuals. Yes, by enabling the PMI, that's all. > I haven't said that the wiring of the memory slots in an 11/84 (or > 11/94) isn't the same as in a Q/CD backplane. It must (by default) be > atleast very similar to a Q/CD backplane. It's exactly the same. Or to be precise, the A/B slots are normal 22-bit QBus; the relevant C/D signals are fully bussed on their top surfaces, rather than just connecting the bottom of each slot to the top of the next one down. That won't matter to PMI memory cards, which have the fingers on the top surface connected to the fingers on the bottom. Nor will it matter to a KDJ11-B, which (apart from power) has connections only on the top surface. > However, there are some > special signals, and also some signals that change behaviour in an 11/84 > and 11/94, according to the manuals. The special signals are the standard PMI signals on C/D (plus one that tells the processor it's in a Unibus system, IIRC), and the ones that change are the ones that do so when moderated by the PMI protocol. > And that will only happen if you > have a KTJ11-B in there. Or something else to assert the PMI :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 21 11:27:38 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 17:27:38 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <46515B6D.1080404@softjar.se> References: <200705210330.l4L3TfXQ039942@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46515B6D.1080404@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4651C87A.3050306@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/05/2007 09:42, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Pete Turnbull skrev: > > > > Correct. So if people could stop assuming that an 11/84 have a > q-bus, we > > > > would get a long way towards clearing this up. > > > > Except that it does have a (short) QBus :-) > > Wire-wise, yes. Protocol wise the manuals imply that some signals don't > behave the same, even though they are named the same. Only (as far as I can see) in the way PMI moderates things in any system. > > OK, we're agreed that the standard config for an 11/83 puts the memeory > > before the processor, and the standard config for an 11/84 puts the > > memory after the processor :-) > > Yes. That we agree on, and that is probably the most important piece. Didn't someone say a few days ago that they had an 11/84 with the boards in a different order? As far as I can see from the schematics, that would work fine, and I think the conventional order shown in the manuals (processor in slot 1, then memory) is just because, well, they had to standardise on something, and that's a logical easy-to-remember convention. That's not the case in an 11/83 where the memory *has* to go above the processor because the backplane's C/D sections alone are not a true bus, and the KDJ11-B only has the PMI connections on its top side. In the 11/84 backplane the C/D sections are a true bus, so from that point of view, the order doesn't matter. > > The P-series 11/84 which I've found described in one of the later 11/84 > > manuals used an MSV11-R, which is a normal QBus memory, not PMI. > > Well, according to the field guide, that *is* PMI memory. :-) But not > ECC memory like the MSV11-J. Mmm. Could be. Anyone got one? Or better still, a manual? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 21 11:36:41 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 13:36:41 -0300 Subject: Nigerian scam!? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070521111721.03723c58@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <039c01c79bc6$815f3a00$f0fea8c0@alpha> Dear sirs, I'm in need of a "little help" :o) Is anyone here from Nigeria? A great friend of mine bought some videogames from a company in Nigeria. It has all the components of a scam. But he asked me to help, so here I am trying to help. The nigerian man says everything is in his possess, but wants a $500 reshipment fee (?!) to ship it to UK (and only later, send to Brazil, go figure!). Of course I'm trying with him to have a pick-up in Nigeria, solving at once this problem. I can reward someone who is willing for help. I know, he has beem scammed. But at least I can try. Thanks, Alexandre From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 21 12:09:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 10:09:48 -0700 Subject: Nigerian scam!? In-Reply-To: <039c01c79bc6$815f3a00$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070521111721.03723c58@mail.30below.com>, <039c01c79bc6$815f3a00$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46516FEC.13188.17C01B3D@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 May 2007 at 13:36, Alexandre Souza wrote: > A great friend of mine bought some videogames from a company in Nigeria. > It has all the components of a scam. But he asked me to help, so here I am > trying to help. The nigerian man says everything is in his possess, but > wants a $500 reshipment fee (?!) to ship it to UK (and only later, send to > Brazil, go figure!). Of course I'm trying with him to have a pick-up in > Nigeria, solving at once this problem. I can reward someone who is willing > for help. Be very very careful. One of the aspects of these Nigerian scams is to use a number of intermediaries (and shipment drops) to launder stolen merchandise or fraudulent money transfers. Your friend, even if he winds up with the merchandise (which is doubtful), could find himself in legal trouble. See some of the variations here: ttp://0035666.netsolhost.com/Nigerian/bogus_orders.htm To be very candid, I suspec that the merchandise in question doesn't exist. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 21 12:19:23 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 13:19:23 -0400 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <46515982.2020006@softjar.se> References: <200705210330.l4L3TfXQ039942@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46515982.2020006@softjar.se> Message-ID: <200705211319.23197.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 21 May 2007 04:34, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Patrick Finnegan skrev: > > On Saturday 19 May 2007 06:35, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > My "11/94" (which was an upgraded 11/84, and which I got CPU-less) > > actually does have a QBUS... it's got an Able Qniverter to hook > > the UNIBUS in the chassis to the QBUS from the CPU, and both QBUS > > and UNIBUS peripherals. > > > > Does anyone know how common that was? I don't see any evidence > > pointing towards it not being designed that way by DEC. The > > chassis is DEC badged, with a label on the side indicating that it > > was upgraded from an 11/84 to be an 11/94 at some point. > > Pat, what you have is what I would describe as an 11/93 with an > Qniverter. That will not be exactly the same thing as an 11/94. > The KTJ11-B, which is DECs Unibus adapter, have some special signals > to the CPU telling it that the KTJ11 is there, and that changes the > behaviour of the Qbus, according to the manuals. I'd agree, but the case quite clearly has a Digital logo on it, an 11/94 placard, and has a note on the side that it was upgraded to an 11/94 from an 11/84. I see no evidence that DEC didn't sell this machine as it currently is configured, as an 11/94 (or 11/84). One more interesting bit about it is the QBUS backplane... the first 3 slots are quad-width Q/CD slots for the memory and CPU, and the rest of the slots (quite a few, maybe 6 or 8?) are hex-width slots that are Q/Q serpentine on the left 4 fingers, and CD on the right 2 fingers. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From charlesmorris at hughes.net Mon May 21 12:23:18 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 12:23:18 -0500 Subject: DEC remote power controller cable? Message-ID: Via the Dayton Hamvention and Dan C., I now have a nice "new" corporate cabinet for my 11/23+ and two RL02's, installed and working. It came with an 874-D Remote Power Controller which I would like to use as intended (i.e. turn everything on by flipping the BA-11SA front panel power switch). That switch connects directly to a 3-pin male Molex connector on the rear of the BA chassis. The 874-D has several 3-pin female Molex connectors labeled "DEC Power Bus". Am I correct in assuming that I just need a 3-wire extension cable between the BA chassis and one of those Power Bus connectors? If so, is there a DEC part I should be looking for? If not, any ideas which mating connectors to order (it's not critical that I use factory original pieces)? The two connectors are not identical families (the BA-11SA's connector is flat on one side and rounded on the other; on the 874-D they are rectangular). Thanks for any help. -Charles From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon May 21 12:30:37 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 13:30:37 -0400 Subject: Nigerian scam!? In-Reply-To: <039c01c79bc6$815f3a00$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070521111721.03723c58@mail.30below.com> <039c01c79bc6$815f3a00$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 5/21/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > Dear sirs, I'm in need of a "little help" :o) I usually click "Report Spam" if the email is started with "Dear Sir" or "My name is ...", or "Good day". I do not have much chance to do that though, Gmail usually put them directly into the Spam folder. Nigeria emails (I receive) are usually scams, and guess what, some UK emails are scams too. vax, 9000 Is anyone here from Nigeria? > > A great friend of mine bought some videogames from a company in > Nigeria. > It has all the components of a scam. But he asked me to help, so here I am > trying to help. The nigerian man says everything is in his possess, but > wants a $500 reshipment fee (?!) to ship it to UK (and only later, send to > Brazil, go figure!). Of course I'm trying with him to have a pick-up in > Nigeria, solving at once this problem. I can reward someone who is willing > for help. > > I know, he has beem scammed. But at least I can try. > > Thanks, > Alexandre > > From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 21 12:29:52 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 19:29:52 +0200 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488415@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9B8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Ethan Dicks Verzonden: ma 21-05-2007 17:10 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Well,now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... On 5/21/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > If I were trying to use a 11/750 for anything intense, I'd seriously > consider upgrading it to 14MB, but for a low number of users (1?) > 8MB goes a long way. Thanks for the info Ethan. I think it's a good move to go for the extra memory >> > Oh, yeah... lots of EMPIRE. Had to keep EMPIRE on it for the >> > boss ;-) >> >> What's EMPIRE? A game? >> Would be a nice reason to fire up the VAX more often :-) > EMPIRE is one of the best VMS games ever. It's you vs the computer > in a land, air, sea battle for a continent and/or a few islands. You > build up armies, march across the land, and conquer neutral or > enemy-occupied cities. Unless you demand total annihilation, I > recommend accepting the computer's surrender - IMO, if you get him > backed that far into a corner, you are only about 50% of the way to > tracking down his last man and killing it. You'll win, but it will > take a long time to find his last few units. > > It's a bit like Civilization without the unrest and the wonders of the > world, etc... just military units. Plays great on an 11/750 and > VT100. Cool! Sounds like fun ... will start a search to find EMPIRE. >> I can get an L0007 MASSBUS interface >> for $40. It is just a nice to have ... although I have two RM03's, >> I don't think I will connect them to the VAX. I intend to connect >> them to the PDP-11/70, but never say never ... > > Does that $40 include the cab kit? No, not that I know... AFAIK, you need a few jumpers on the backplane to install the MASSBUS interface, and of course the 3 ribbon cables that go to the MASSBUS bulkhead. I have the cables and a bulkhead, but when I install the L0007, I will need the installation instructions. We'll see about that when that day arrives ... > If you want to run large pedestal drives on your VAX, the RM03 > isn't a bad one to use, but the MB/KhW ratio is a bit low. Yes, I know. The electricity bill has increased some 10% compared with last year :-) But running the old iron is so much fun! > The good news is that if you have a few packs, you could use the RM03s > with _either_ the VAX or your 11/70, just move the cables and swap the > packs. Yep, true. But the PDP-11/70 is in my "museum", and the VAX is in the shack, in the house ... I'm waiting for the lottery to knock on the door! > I could say "me too", but OTOH, a VAX with RA81's does look nice > or at least impressive :-) > There's nothing inherently "wrong" with an RA81 (except for the ones > with bad glue ;-), but at 1000W for 450MB, I'd rather have a smaller > drive and spend the electricity budget on the CPU. But running RA81('s) makes good conversation by mentioning the rush-in current, average power cinsumption and storage capacity while I hold a defective opened 40 Gb drive from a laptop in my hands :-) You can come up with new dimensions, like bytes/cm3, kilogram/kilobyte ... > If you _really_ want the 11/750 experience, though, I gotta recommend > MASSBUS disks. We booted ours from the SI9900, and had a Fuji Eagle > and an RA81 for data disks - nearly a Gig between 3 spindles in 1988! Point taken! I also have an untested RM80 ... :-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 21 12:58:40 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 19:58:40 +0200 Subject: DEC remote power controller cable? References: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9B9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Charles Verzonden: ma 21-05-2007 19:23 Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: DEC remote power controller cable? Via the Dayton Hamvention and Dan C., I now have a nice "new" corporate cabinet for my 11/23+ and two RL02's, installed and working. It came with an 874-D Remote Power Controller which I would like to use as intended (i.e. turn everything on by flipping the BA-11SA front panel power switch). That switch connects directly to a 3-pin male Molex connector on the rear of the BA chassis. The 874-D has several 3-pin female Molex connectors labeled "DEC Power Bus". Am I correct in assuming that I just need a 3-wire extension cable between the BA chassis and one of those Power Bus connectors? If so, is there a DEC part I should be looking for? If not, any ideas which mating connectors to order (it's not critical that I use factory original pieces)? The two connectors are not identical families (the BA-11SA's connector is flat on one side and rounded on the other; on the 874-D they are rectangular). Thanks for any help. -Charles ________________________________ Yes, 3 wires is enough, but if you don't care for protection (turn off when the system gets too hot), 2 wires will be fine. The 874 power controller has 3 pins, same size as the pins used to connect power to an old 5?" floppy drive, AFAIK. One pin is ground. One of the other pins switches the main relay on, if that pin is connected to ground (the one you want to use). Easy to find out, the circuit is low-voltage. Just short 2 pins ... The third pin switches the main relay off when connected to ground and has "higher priority" than the "switch-on pin". The "switch-off" pin is used for high temperature protection. I don't know that round connector on the BA11-SA. Perhaps you can find the diagram on bitsavers ... the power controllers are! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 21 13:08:04 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 14:08:04 -0400 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9B8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488415@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9B8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 5/21/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > >> > Oh, yeah... lots of EMPIRE. Had to keep EMPIRE on it for the > >> > boss ;-) > > Cool! Sounds like fun ... will start a search to find EMPIRE. (googled for 'empire.exe') http://www.decus.org/libcatalog/description_html/v00012.html (but you'll need to twiddle the RMS attributes into 512-byte fixed so VMS will treat it like an executable). > No, not that I know... AFAIK, you need a few jumpers on the backplane > to install the MASSBUS interface, and of course the 3 ribbon cables > that go to the MASSBUS bulkhead. I have the cables and a bulkhead, but > when I install the L0007, I will need the installation instructions. > We'll see about that when that day arrives ... Yes... you do have to fiddle backplane jumpers. There are no 11/750 MASSBUS slot grant cards AFAIK. > > If you _really_ want the 11/750 experience, though, I gotta recommend > > MASSBUS disks. We booted ours from the SI9900, and had a Fuji Eagle > > and an RA81 for data disks - nearly a Gig between 3 spindles in 1988! > > Point taken! I also have an untested RM80 ... :-) I stripped down a dead RM80 nearly 15 years ago. I did keep the pedestals for the parts-RM03 we also stripped down to keep our hot-spare RM03s going. My PDP-8/e is presently resting where an RM03 formerly sat, with an RK05 in the bottom. I wish I'd been able to keep the RM03s when the company folded, but 4 van loads was all I could manage. We left behind a TU78 (mostly working, but a bit dodgy), two RK07s, two RM03s, a VAX 8530, lots of RK07 disk packs, and dozens of VT100 and clone terminals. I did keep a bunch of the terminals, and I was thinking of polishing a few up to bring to VCFmw if anyone wants a CiTOH 101 or 101e - they are nice clones, either VT100-style with a built-in clock on the setup screen (set with command codes in my LOGIN.COM), or more of a Wyse 50-shape capable of supporting two host connections (not dual session - there's no retention of screen contents). When I worked there, I typically had one 101 and one 101e on my desk, for 3 simultaneous logins across two or three machines _before_ I flipped the knob on my terminal selector ;-) In many ways, those were the days - I still do lots and lots of shell/command-line programming, just as I did then. Now, though, I have lots more than three active sessions going. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 21 13:14:29 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 11:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Nigerian scam!? In-Reply-To: <039c01c79bc6$815f3a00$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070521111721.03723c58@mail.30below.com> <039c01c79bc6$815f3a00$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20070521111206.D75040@shell.lmi.net> While you are at it, could you pick up my lottery winnings? Oh, and there are embezzlers all over the world, particularly in Nigeria, who just need access to your bank account to move their money. All that you need to do is pay a few thousand dollars in processing fees, . . . From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 21 13:40:34 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 12:40:34 -0600 Subject: PLATO terminal at last! Message-ID: OK, its really a CP/M box with some PLATO software, but it *does* have the PLATO specific keyboard. Maybe I could write something in Tutor! After investigating all the options, UPS still was the cheapest to get it out of the UK though. Unless someone wants to check it as baggage when flying back from the UK to the US for me? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 21 13:42:00 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 19:42:00 +0100 Subject: OT: Nigerian scam!? In-Reply-To: <20070521111206.D75040@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070521111721.03723c58@mail.30below.com> <039c01c79bc6$815f3a00$f0fea8c0@alpha> <20070521111206.D75040@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4651E7F8.6040703@philpem.me.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > Oh, and there are embezzlers all over the world, particularly in Nigeria, > who just need access to your bank account to move their money. All that > you need to do is pay a few thousand dollars in processing fees, . . . And even if they don't, I hear those money laundering laws are a real pain... what with the nice, long sentences, and the whole "Hey man, you dropped your soap..." thing that TV leads me to believe goes on in prison..... :) -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From rogpugh at mac.com Mon May 21 13:52:49 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 19:52:49 +0100 Subject: Nigerian scam!? OT In-Reply-To: <039c01c79bc6$815f3a00$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070521111721.03723c58@mail.30below.com> <039c01c79bc6$815f3a00$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <1179773569.5806.2.camel@localhost> WWW.419eater.com is worth looking at! Roger From sethm at loomcom.com Mon May 21 13:59:34 2007 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 11:59:34 -0700 Subject: Friden Flexowriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 19, 2007, at 4:13 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I'd love to hear from anyone else who has one, or who has worked on > > I have one, and not suprisingly, I've also had it apart. They are > fairly > modular (although removing the complete typing unit chassis is a > lot of > work), you can remove the punch, reader, encolder and decoder very > easily. > > A couple of things to watch for if you're taking it apart. Firslty, > you > need a set of Bristol Spline keys, the grubscrews have that type of > socket. Secodnly, the carrigage feed escapment has 4 rows of loose > ball > bearingsm of 2 sizes. If yoy're tempted to strip this, take great care > (or ask me...) Good to know, thanks! I'm really *not* tempted to take it apart to that degree. I think I would prefer to leave that to a professional typewriter shop if necessary. > Mine has separe shift up and shift down character codes that move the > type basket, I think. I've used one that worked in ASCII and which did > the shifts automatically. Mine seems to have "On 1" (left) and "On 2" (right) keys, as well as an "Off" key next to the tabulator, which I assume generate the "Upper Case" and "Lower Case" codes respectively. (These are not power switches, of course -- those are located on the right side). I haven't picked it up yet, so I don't know what character set the upper case prints. Based on the photographs, I'm assuming it does not print any custom computer characters seen on the PDP-1 or TX-0 flexowriters. I think the vast majority of flexowriters in the field were used for generating paper spam, and would have had a normal typewriter character set installed, correct? -Seth From Philip.Haun-1 at ksc.nasa.gov Mon May 21 10:45:18 2007 From: Philip.Haun-1 at ksc.nasa.gov (Haun, Philip S) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 11:45:18 -0400 Subject: facit n4000 service manual? Message-ID: <8A3910E66CA60F468F0DB253AC1456B099047B@ICDEX.icdnet.ksc.nasa.gov> Did you ever find a service manual or schematic? I am looking for the same thing. Philip "Scott" Haun Senior Instrumentation Specialist Indyne (KICS) Photo & Media Services KICS-700 Phone 321.853.7842 Fax 321.853.7750 http://kics.ksc.nasa.gov/services/video/index_photo.cfm From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 21 17:43:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 23:43:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Friden Flexowriter In-Reply-To: from "Seth Morabito" at May 21, 7 11:59:34 am Message-ID: > > A couple of things to watch for if you're taking it apart. Firslty, > > you > > need a set of Bristol Spline keys, the grubscrews have that type of > > socket. Secodnly, the carrigage feed escapment has 4 rows of loose > > ball > > bearingsm of 2 sizes. If yoy're tempted to strip this, take great care > > (or ask me...) > > Good to know, thanks! I'm really *not* tempted to take it apart to > that degree. I think I would prefer to leave that to a professional > typewriter shop if necessary. I regard it as a sin to get anyone else to repair anything I own... This probably explains the number of service manuals I own, and the number of hours I've spent loking for that little nurgle that's flwon across the workshop. Anyway, back to the flexowriter. There are metal cvoers on the punch, reader, right hand side of the machine (where the carriage return drum and clutch, and the keyboard encoder contacts are, and behind the carriage over the relays. All those can be removed (Phillips head screws IIRC). You can stand the machine on its back (there are wheels and feet to do this) mad hten remvoe a couple of screws (may beven br thhumbscrews) and swing the complete encoder unit out. If you want to remove it totlaly, the shaft it pibots on is locked by a setscrew in the main body casting, I think it's a Bristol Spline ont. The punch and reader cables plug into sockets inside at the back near the motor. After removing those, the punch and reader units can be removed by undoing one captive screw in each and pulling them off. There is, IIRC, a leather washer that acts as a shaft coupling that's loose at this point, but that's the only problem. The receive decoder unit, rigth at the front under the keyboard, is held down by 4 screws. You then have to unhook the output links on this from the keylevers (IIRC, just lefit the unit towards the front of the machine. Then with it part way out, unoplug the coonectors inside and take it all the way out. All this is 'safe' in that there are no small parts or spring loaded parts to fly out. > I haven't picked it up yet, so I don't know what character set the > upper case prints. Based on the photographs, I'm assuming it does > not print any custom computer characters seen on the PDP-1 or TX-0 > flexowriters. I think the vast majority of flexowriters in the field > were used for generating paper spam, and would have had a normal > typewriter character set installed, correct? Unlike n ASR33 or similar, the keyboard on a flexowriter is mechanically linked to the typebards. You can't type and _not_ get local echo. So, provided the motor is running, the machine will print what you type, which makes it trivial to work out what characeters it can print. Ans while you can, I think, have a key that either doesn't print or doesn't send anything to the line, I don't think you can (sensibly) have a typebar that doesn't correspond to a key. in that the receive decoder actually pulls down the key levers corresponding to the incoming characters. So every character it can print will correspond to a key. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 21 18:00:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 16:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI PC's was Re: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: <46510EA3.7030509@internet1.net> Message-ID: <192005.33109.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> he wasn't willing to pay much at all, not that anyone would even ask much. I'm not sure if I still even have his contact info, but I'm sure shipping would even have been prohibitive. What do you have w/the system unit? I might be interested in some ancillary stuff if you're willing to part anything out. --- C Fernandez wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > I ran into a guy in Kentucky who wanted > > extra TI PC's, > > Got an email address for the guy? I have a TIPC > that I'd like to unload. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > ____________________________________________________________________________________Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 21 18:05:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 16:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <143659.57595.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeffrey Armstrong wrote: > I still use a Rainbow, and there was a time when my > stock of parts was > much lower that I may have considered purchasing > this card at this price. take no offense at my previous comment. It's just that I'd have needed better graphics (and clockspeed, and...) to brave the wilds of dos incompatibility in order to commit to such a system back when they were current. All of the other pseudo compatibles have much more to offer, and the Rainbow seemed to drift into obscurity not long after it's inception (there was a measure of solidarity among those who did buy it though, which is to be commended). I do consider it an interesting collectible piece though, and am eager to add to it functionally. BUT NOT AT THOSE PRICES!!! OI! ____________________________________________________________________________________You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 21 19:28:41 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 20:28:41 -0400 Subject: Nigerian scam!? OT In-Reply-To: <1179773569.5806.2.camel@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070521111721.03723c58@mail.30below.com> <039c01c79bc6$815f3a00$f0fea8c0@alpha> <1179773569.5806.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <46523939.10306@atarimuseum.com> Wanna have some REAL fun - scam the scammers - join Scambaiters!!! http://youtube.com/watch?v=okE6TRQlZY8 This is how to have a ball and really screw over those nigerian sc*mbags!!! Curt roger pugh wrote: > WWW.419eater.com is worth looking at! > > Roger > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 21 21:04:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 22:04:15 -0400 Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: <200705201259.54338.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <33566816-F96D-4765-BFB4-A183B418BFF3@neurotica.com> <200705201259.54338.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <3F2A139F-B4A9-4FBF-A34E-4B8CE7D01EEE@neurotica.com> On May 20, 2007, at 12:59 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>> I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with >>>> DLT-IV media. >>> >>> Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere around >>> 30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT III box, >>> but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media. > > Ehh, it's not as nice as my 574-slot STK library that I got last > summer. :) Your contacts for cool stuff are just too good, man. > BTW, I've got about a thousand surplus DLT-IV tapes that I need to > start > getting rid of soon (they're tapes that used to be in our HSM > system at > work). They're all used, but degaussed, and were working just fine > while we were using them up until the end of December. > > If anyone needs some tapes, let me know... I'm in West Lafayette, IN. Any idea what you might want to get for them? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon May 21 21:09:27 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 22:09:27 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <4651985C.9020107@nktelco.net> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> <464276C7.2080308@nktelco.net> <464F50F7.4080509@nktelco.net> <464FB662.4040900@compsys.to> <46505940.2060902@nktelco.net> <465114CF.3000107@compsys.to> <4651985C.9020107@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <465250D7.3050806@compsys.to> >C H Dickman wrote: > >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> I will also have a look at the code in DW.MAC >> and RESORC. However, the more I think about it, the less >> likely I feel that DEC would have allowed RT-11 partitions >> on the PRO hard drives. > > I think it only supports one partition. Although a table lists the > sizes of all the drive options, the number of blocks just maxes out > at 65535. Jerome Fine replies: I just looked at the code for DW.MAC and I am certain that you are correct. There is no ability to look at blocks above block number 65535. That is what the DU(X).SYS device driver can do starting with V05.03 of RT-11. >>>> Since there is no documentation >>>> on the PRO hardware, can anyone suggest anything? >>> >>> The Pro Tech Manuals are on bitsavers. >> >> Can anyone identify the actual files on bitsavers? > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/ > > Those might not be what you are looking for though, no information > about the software is included. > > -chuck Thank you. I will have a look. However, the code for the DW.MAC device driver (the hard drive on the PRO3xx system) is included in the V05.03 distribution. There is no possibility that the code can support RT-11 partitions as with the DU(X).SYS device driver. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 21 21:16:16 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 19:16:16 -0700 Subject: FOG DOS discs archived anywhere? Message-ID: <46525270.2060403@bitsavers.org> There are around 400 MSDOS group discs produced by FOG. There were only a couple on the FOG cdrom, does anyone know if these have already been archived? They appear to span 1986-1990 From charlesmorris at hughes.net Mon May 21 21:16:37 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 21:16:37 -0500 Subject: Need help with VTserver Message-ID: <95k453dqm0et4q6ol03urkk9u4d2rfj5pr@4ax.com> Thanks to a creative suggestion from Ethan, I want to use VTserver to transfer a bootable OS/8 RL02 image from my laptop (which works fine under SIMH PDP-8) to an RL02 pack on my 11/23+. Then I will remove that disk from the drive on the -11, place it in the 8/A's RL02 drive, and voila - it should boot OS/8! (The disks are identical format regardless of system, only the programs themselves differ). Meanwhile I am confused about VTserver's use and terminology of serial ports. I got a PC-executable version here: http://home.alltel.net/engdahl/vtserver.zip and modified the .vtrc file (as recommended in the embedded comments) to send only two tape records, "copy" and the RL02 image. I realize a null modem cable will need to be made. So far so good? But I don't understand the difference between, say, "ttyd1" and "ttyp9"... those are Unix terms, not DOS... will one of these be correct to enable the serial port connector on the back (one of the COM ports)? If not, how do I patch this? I was a hardware designer and 8/16 bit assembly language writer (and that was over 20 years ago) and definitely never a C, Unix or Windows programmer, so please bear with me. Any helpful hints appreciated :) -Charles From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 21 21:52:45 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 23:52:45 -0300 Subject: Rainbow on eBay and looking... References: <225045.49924.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <048b01c79c1c$f9b7ad10$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Oi one option worse then the other LOL. I'm not even > aware of what freqs the 'bow's screens operate at, nor > the Amigas. I guess they've got to be close though ;) Amiga: 15.750KHz, the same as CGA and normal television ;o) From g-wright at att.net Mon May 21 22:13:10 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 03:13:10 +0000 Subject: Saving DEC rainbow lotus disks image Message-ID: <052220070313.14285.46525FC5000EE1A1000037CD21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, Is there an easy way to save a image of the Lotus 123 system disk for a rainbow. Not sure what they used for copy protection but image disk does not like it. - Jerry From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 21 22:12:31 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 23:12:31 -0400 Subject: Price vs value for DLT tapes In-Reply-To: <3F2A139F-B4A9-4FBF-A34E-4B8CE7D01EEE@neurotica.com> References: <200705201259.54338.pat@computer-refuge.org> <3F2A139F-B4A9-4FBF-A34E-4B8CE7D01EEE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200705212312.31398.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 21 May 2007 22:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 20, 2007, at 12:59 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >>>> I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke > >>>> with DLT-IV media. > >>> > >>> Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere > >>> around 30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT > >>> III box, but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media. > > > > Ehh, it's not as nice as my 574-slot STK library that I got last > > summer. :) > > Your contacts for cool stuff are just too good, man. I paid plenty of money for it (~$400). > > BTW, I've got about a thousand surplus DLT-IV tapes that I need to > > start > > getting rid of soon (they're tapes that used to be in our HSM > > system at > > work). They're all used, but degaussed, and were working just fine > > while we were using them up until the end of December. > > > > If anyone needs some tapes, let me know... I'm in West Lafayette, > > IN. > > Any idea what you might want to get for them? If anyone is interested, contact me off-list... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 21 23:30:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 21:30:31 -0700 Subject: Saving DEC rainbow lotus disks image In-Reply-To: <052220070313.14285.46525FC5000EE1A1000037CD21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <052220070313.14285.46525FC5000EE1A1000037CD21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <46520F77.28559.1A2F4FF9@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 May 2007 at 3:13, g-wright at att.net wrote: > Is there an easy way to save a image of the Lotus 123 > system disk for a rainbow. > Not sure what they used for copy protection but image disk > does not like it. Someone with a CopyIIPC option board and a 720K 5.25" drive should be able to handle it. There were Lotus "patches" floating around for the IBM PC systems that might give you a clue of what to do with your Rainbow version. I'll dig into my files and see what I can find. Cheers, Chuck From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 21 15:41:01 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 22:41:01 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus Message-ID: <465203DD.2090400@softjar.se> Okay, since this topic have become a subject of much discussion and some diverse opinions, I decided to really read the manuals to try to find the bottom of this all. My main source of information here have been the "KDJ11-B CPU Module Users's Guide". EK-KDJ1B-UG-001 Now, to start with the position of the CPU card in an 11/84. Chapter 7, section 7.2. Page 7-1: "7.2 PMI INTERFACE The PMI interface signals are defined as the PMI bus master signals, the PMI slave signals and the PMI Unibus adapter signals. These interface signals are assigned to the C and D rows of the backplane and are defined as the interconnect bus. The PMI interface signals on the C/D bus are normally assigned two pins to provide an interconnection between the slots. The KDJ11-B module is only assigned one pin and therefore its position in the backplane is critical. The LSI bus signals that are used with the PMI protocol use the A and B rows of the backplane defined as the LSI bus." Now, if Pete is correct in that the PMI bus on the 11/84 really goes to both pins on all slots, then it should be okay to place the CPU in any slot. I haven't tried that, but I might when I have the time. I suspect he's right since otherwise I would have expected the CPU to be in slot 3. But DEC could be doing some fancy wiring... :-) The fact that the placement is critical is obvious if we talk about Q-bus systems, and I suspect the comment is written from that point of view. As for wether Q-bus memory (or any other Q-bus peripherial) will work, I'll quote some signal descriptions. Chapter 7, page 7-4. Table 7-3 PMI Unibus Adapter Signals "Pin: CF1 Mnemonic: PUBSYS L PMI Unibus System In a Unibus system, PUBSYS L is asserted by the UBA to direct the KDJ11-B to follow PMI protocol for all data transfers, wether the PSSEL L is asserted or not. LSI-11 bus protocol is disabled for all PMI devices when PUBSYS L is asserted. In an LSI-11 system, PUBSYS L is always negated. If PSSEL L is negated, the KDJ11-B follows LSI-11 protocol and the PMI memory then responds to the LSI-11 protocol by the LSI DMA devices." Chapter 7, page 7-5. Table 7-4 LSI Bus Signals "Pin: AF2 Mnemonic: BRPLY L Reply During PMI cycles, BRPLY L is asserted by the KDJ11-B and the PMI slave to prevent the next bus master from gaining control of the bus too soon. In a Unibus system, BRPLY L is asserted by the UBA as a slave response during the PMI DATOB cycle and interrupt DATI cycle. *** NOTE *** The PMI memory slave modules in a Unibus system must have BRPLY L disabled at all times. Pin: AH2 Mnemonic: BDIN L Data Input The BDIN L signal is only used in PMI Unibus systems during interrupt grant cycles. The KDJ11-B asserts BDIN L after it gates the interrupt priority, BDAL bits <3:0>, onto the bus. The UBA then latches the interrupt priority data using the leading edge of BDIN L. Pin: AM2 Mnemonic: BIAKI L Interrupt Acknowledge In Pin: AN2 Mnemonic: BIAKO L Interrupt Acknowledge Out These signals are only used in PMI Unibus systems during the interrupt grant cycles. The KDJ11-B asserts the BIAKI L signal, and the UBDA acknowledges it by asserting one of the Unibus bus grant signals. Pin: BB1 Mnemonic: BPOK H Power OK This signal is only used in PMI Unibus systems for the Unibus power-up/power-down protocol. This signal is asserted and negated by the UBA in response to the Unibus AC LO signal. The assertion of AC LO may be prolonged by the Unibus devices or the PMI memory during power-up." I could go on describing more details on how these signals are used, since it's all described in the manual. Suffice to day that the KDJ11-B *knows* when it's in a Unibus system (i.e 11/84) and will not behave like a normal Qbus. First of all, it will always use PMI protocol to access memory, no matter what the memory might claim. Second, interrupt handling is done differently, since all interrupts are expected to be dealt with via the UBA. There are also schematics for different signals in the manual, and you can clearly find the PUBSYS L signal included in some decoder path as a way to force a specific behaviour independent of other signals that might exist. Now, can we now accept that it's not a Q-bus in the 11/84? :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue May 22 02:11:54 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 09:11:54 +0200 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488418@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: maandag 21 mei 2007 20:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Well,now I've gone and done it... Dragged home > more big(ish) iron... > > On 5/21/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > >> > Oh, yeah... lots of EMPIRE. Had to keep EMPIRE on it for the > > >> > boss ;-) > > > > Cool! Sounds like fun ... will start a search to find EMPIRE. > > (googled for 'empire.exe') > > http://www.decus.org/libcatalog/description_html/v00012.html > > (but you'll need to twiddle the RMS attributes into 512-byte > fixed so VMS will treat it like an executable). Thanks for the link Ethan. I opened that link and succesfully downloaded the "DOC" page. However, the FTP link returns an error, at work (most likely because of the firewall), but also at home. I have tried to open the "FTP" while the firewall (at home) was turned off, but still no result. Can somebody check that the link is OK? And if it is dead, does somebody have EMPIRE.EXE and can zip it and email it to me? > Yes... you do have to fiddle backplane jumpers. There are no > 11/750 MASSBUS slot grant cards AFAIK. Yup, the MASSBUS interface for the VAX-11/750 is just one big board. The RH11 and the RH70 are several boards (quad and hex) and both have M590? dual-width cable receiver/transmitter boards. The backplane jumpers is the tricky part (i.e. what I do not know yet, but seem to remember that I have read about it some time ago). > I stripped down a dead RM80 nearly 15 years ago. I did keep the > pedestals for the parts-RM03 we also stripped down to keep > our hot-spare RM03s going. If my RM80 turns out to be dead, I am keeping it too. I will probably "hide" an RA70 or other smallish SDI disk inside the dead RM80, and use the low rack section for storage (BA11 expansion box, boards, just documentation or an RL02). We'll see, 'next year' :-) > My PDP-8/e is presently resting where an RM03 formerly sat, > with an RK05 in the bottom. Nice. That makes a very cute small PDP-8/e system! You even jhave room for a second RK05! I assume that the terminal is on top of the 8/e :-) Or do you have a TeleType next to it? > I wish I'd been able to keep the RM03s when the company folded, > but 4 van loads was all I could manage. We left behind a > TU78 (mostly working, but a bit dodgy), two RK07s, two RM03s, > a VAX 8530, lots of RK07 disk packs, and dozens of VT100 and > clone terminals. I did keep a bunch of the terminals, and I > was thinking of polishing a few up to bring to VCFmw if > anyone wants a CiTOH 101 or 101e - they are nice clones, > either VT100-style with a built-in clock on the setup screen > (set with command codes in my LOGIN.COM), or more of a Wyse > 50-shape capable of supporting two host connections (not dual > session - there's no retention of screen contents). When I > worked there, I typically had one 101 and one 101e on my > desk, for 3 simultaneous logins across two or three machines > _before_ I flipped the knob on my terminal selector > ;-) I still keep one CiTOH (101?) in the attic, but have no use for it. I just cannot simply throw it away. If I had been there when the company folded, I would probably have taken an RK07 or RM03. I would have been thinking that terminals are easier to get later ... But *four* van loads! My wife would kill^H^H^H^H call me insane. I am still hoping to get a few RK07 packs. The ones Edward and I bought 2 years ago have so many bad sectors that XXDP (first test for RK07) already gives up during the INIT after a while :-( > In many ways, those were the days - I still do lots and lots > of shell/command-line programming, just as I did then. Now, > though, I have lots more than three active sessions going. > > -ethan Yes, I agree :-) That is why we're on ClassicCmp :-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From halarewich at gmail.com Tue May 22 02:47:09 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:47:09 -0700 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488418@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488418@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <6d6501090705220047w292fe699mbe622132d28a462f@mail.gmail.com> try this http://www.classicempire.com/ halfway down the page official versions On 5/22/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > > Sent: maandag 21 mei 2007 20:08 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Well,now I've gone and done it... Dragged home > > more big(ish) iron... > > > > On 5/21/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > > >> > Oh, yeah... lots of EMPIRE. Had to keep EMPIRE on it for the > > > >> > boss ;-) > > > > > > Cool! Sounds like fun ... will start a search to find EMPIRE. > > > > (googled for 'empire.exe') > > > > http://www.decus.org/libcatalog/description_html/v00012.html > > > > (but you'll need to twiddle the RMS attributes into 512-byte > > fixed so VMS will treat it like an executable). > > Thanks for the link Ethan. > I opened that link and succesfully downloaded the "DOC" page. > However, the FTP link returns an error, at work (most likely because > of the firewall), but also at home. I have tried to open the "FTP" > while the firewall (at home) was turned off, but still no result. > Can somebody check that the link is OK? And if it is dead, does > somebody have EMPIRE.EXE and can zip it and email it to me? > > > Yes... you do have to fiddle backplane jumpers. There are no > > 11/750 MASSBUS slot grant cards AFAIK. > > Yup, the MASSBUS interface for the VAX-11/750 is just one big > board. The RH11 and the RH70 are several boards (quad and hex) > and both have M590? dual-width cable receiver/transmitter boards. > The backplane jumpers is the tricky part (i.e. what I do not know > yet, but seem to remember that I have read about it some time ago). > > > I stripped down a dead RM80 nearly 15 years ago. I did keep the > > pedestals for the parts-RM03 we also stripped down to keep > > our hot-spare RM03s going. > > If my RM80 turns out to be dead, I am keeping it too. I will > probably "hide" an RA70 or other smallish SDI disk inside the dead > RM80, and use the low rack section for storage (BA11 expansion box, > boards, just documentation or an RL02). We'll see, 'next year' :-) > > > My PDP-8/e is presently resting where an RM03 formerly sat, > > with an RK05 in the bottom. > > Nice. That makes a very cute small PDP-8/e system! > You even jhave room for a second RK05! I assume that the terminal > is on top of the 8/e :-) Or do you have a TeleType next to it? > > > I wish I'd been able to keep the RM03s when the company folded, > > but 4 van loads was all I could manage. We left behind a > > TU78 (mostly working, but a bit dodgy), two RK07s, two RM03s, > > a VAX 8530, lots of RK07 disk packs, and dozens of VT100 and > > clone terminals. I did keep a bunch of the terminals, and I > > was thinking of polishing a few up to bring to VCFmw if > > anyone wants a CiTOH 101 or 101e - they are nice clones, > > either VT100-style with a built-in clock on the setup screen > > (set with command codes in my LOGIN.COM), or more of a Wyse > > 50-shape capable of supporting two host connections (not dual > > session - there's no retention of screen contents). When I > > worked there, I typically had one 101 and one 101e on my > > desk, for 3 simultaneous logins across two or three machines > > _before_ I flipped the knob on my terminal selector > > ;-) > > I still keep one CiTOH (101?) in the attic, but have no use > for it. I just cannot simply throw it away. If I had been there > when the company folded, I would probably have taken an RK07 or > RM03. I would have been thinking that terminals are easier to > get later ... > But *four* van loads! My wife would kill^H^H^H^H call me insane. > I am still hoping to get a few RK07 packs. The ones Edward and > I bought 2 years ago have so many bad sectors that XXDP (first > test for RK07) already gives up during the INIT after a while :-( > > > In many ways, those were the days - I still do lots and lots > > of shell/command-line programming, just as I did then. Now, > > though, I have lots more than three active sessions going. > > > > -ethan > > Yes, I agree :-) That is why we're on ClassicCmp :-) > > - Henk. > > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the > addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. > > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for > delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified > that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is > strictly prohibited. > > If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender > immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. > > Thank you for your co-operation. > > > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 22 02:56:44 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 08:56:44 +0100 Subject: DEC remote power controller cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4652A23C.1030206@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/05/2007 18:23, Charles wrote: > Am I correct in assuming that I just need a 3-wire extension cable > between the BA chassis and one of those Power Bus connectors? Yes, the centre is the common, and one side is make-for-on and the other is make-for-off. So you can actually get away with two wires. > If so, is there a DEC part I should be looking for? If not, any > ideas which mating connectors to order (it's not critical that I > use factory original pieces)? The two connectors are not identical > families (the BA-11SA's connector is flat on one side and rounded > on the other; on the 874-D they are rectangular). There are several DEC cables, of different lengths. I'm puzzled that you say the connectors aren't identical, though. The normal cable is 3 wires with a 3-pin AMP Commercial Mate-N-Lok connector on each end. This is a 3-pin cable-fitting version of the connector used for power on 5.25" floppies and many hard drives. My BA11-S has this connector (opposite gender, of course) on the panel. Have you got a photo of yours? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue May 22 03:49:41 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 10:49:41 +0200 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: <6d6501090705220047w292fe699mbe622132d28a462f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848841C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Halarewich > Sent: dinsdag 22 mei 2007 9:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Well,now I've gone and done it... Dragged home > more big(ish) iron... > > try this http://www.classicempire.com/ halfway down the page > official versions > > > On 5/22/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > > > Sent: maandag 21 mei 2007 20:08 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Re: Well,now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more > > > big(ish) iron... > > > > > > On 5/21/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > > > >> > Oh, yeah... lots of EMPIRE. Had to keep EMPIRE on > > > > >> > it for the boss ;-) > > > > > > > > Cool! Sounds like fun ... will start a search to find EMPIRE. > > > > > > (googled for 'empire.exe') > > > > > > http://www.decus.org/libcatalog/description_html/v00012.html > > > > > I opened that link and succesfully downloaded the "DOC" page. > > However, the FTP link returns an error, at work (most likely > > because of the firewall), but also at home. I have tried to open > > the "FTP" while the firewall (at home) was turned off, but still > > no result. > > Can somebody check that the link is OK? And if it is dead, does > > somebody have EMPIRE.EXE and can zip it and email it to me? Nope :-( The link "Decus Empire for VAX/VMS" redirects to the same URL as the "FTP" icon on the above link: ftp://ftp.encompassus.org/lib/v00012/ and that fails. So, I am still looking for the VAX/VMS version ... However, there is also a link "Download Empire for the PDP-11" ! That is a zip file, I got it and will try that one. The "read.me" says: 'Here is the last DEC LSI-11 / Heathkit H-11 version that I made.' - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From yakowenk at yahoo.com Tue May 22 04:33:34 2007 From: yakowenk at yahoo.com (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 02:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Original PC Needs Rescue Message-ID: <410052.67424.qm@web52302.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hey, all, I've got mail from somebody with an original IBM PC from the first batch to be sold by IBM to its own employees. Apparently they selected employees from a list by lottery to determine what order to deliver them, this was in the middle of the list, delivered in October 1982. (Isn't that a little late for first batch? Was the production rate not up to demand at first?) Anyway, there are several pieces: system unit, keyboard, monitor, etc.; mostly (or all?) in original cartons with docs & software & such, some still in shrink wrap. There is also some amount of PS/1 stuff, available together with the PC stuff or separately, depending on who wants what, the order in which responses arrive, and the phase of the moon. This stuff is all in Colorado, but the owner is willing to pay shipping (presumably assuming domestic!) so the location doesn't much matter. I'll collect responses and forward them in a batch, and the owner will decide who to contact and so on. Cheers, Bill. ____________________________________________________________________________________Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php From fu3.org at gmail.com Tue May 22 04:51:10 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 11:51:10 +0200 Subject: FOG DOS discs archived anywhere? In-Reply-To: <46525270.2060403@bitsavers.org> References: <46525270.2060403@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <310f50ab0705220251w16e65d9fv791757a1e8f20550@mail.gmail.com> >2007/5/22, Al Kossow : > There are around 400 MSDOS group discs produced by FOG. > There were only a couple on the FOG cdrom, does anyone > know if these have already been archived? > They appear to span 1986-1990 > > > > these? - http://www.znode51.de/fog/filelist.htm From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue May 22 05:32:50 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 11:32:50 +0100 Subject: Any Palm developers on the list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070522103250.GH7512@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sun, May 20, 2007 at 04:42:24PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I joined the Palm Developers Network, but they don't make older SDK > files available for download. I'm really looking for the kit they > used to have available that allows one to develop PalmOS 3.3-era stuff > - so around 1999 or so, I think. Does anyone on the list have > something that sounds like that? If so, please reply to me directly > rather than clutter the list with stuff about Palms. google://prc-tools It's not Palm's own SDK, but IMO it's better. If you're using OS X then get it from here instead of from sourceforget: http://www.zenonez.com/prctoolsx/install.html > These days, everyone wants to support the Tungstens and > Treos, etc., and have left monochrome Palms in the dust. Of course, the new Palms will still run older applications, provided that they don't make any assumptions about screen size. And even very very old Palm apps rarely did that. Another good place to ask for help might be comp.sys.palmtops.pilot. -- David Cantrell | top google result for "topless karaoke murders" Did you know that shotguns taste like candy canes? Put the barrel in your mouth and pull the trigger for an extra blast of minty goodness! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 22 07:31:23 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 08:31:23 -0400 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488418@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488418@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 5/22/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > I wrote: > > My PDP-8/e is presently resting where an RM03 formerly sat, > > with an RK05 in the bottom. > > Nice. That makes a very cute small PDP-8/e system! > You even have room for a second RK05! Yep. There's a 12-drive FC RAID box in there right now (thanks, Patrick!), but it's just resting in there (unless someone ever makes a FC host card for the Omnibus ;-) > I assume that the terminal > is on top of the 8/e :-) Or do you have a TeleType next to it? ASR-33 off to the side so I can load papertape diagnostics. > I still keep one CiTOH (101?) The 101 is the model shaped and colored much like a VT100. The keyboard looks similar (except for logos, IIRC), but its protocol is _not_ compatible with the VT100. Nothing blows up, but if you get the keyboards mixed up, nothing works, either. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 22 07:45:19 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 05:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <184869.8691.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > The 101 is the model shaped and colored much like a > VT100. The > keyboard looks similar (except for logos, IIRC), but > its protocol is > _not_ compatible with the VT100. Nothing blows up, > but if you get the > keyboards mixed up, nothing works, either. Good thing I didn't buy the one on eBay a couple months ago. There was a 101 there, and cheap too, but it had no keyboard. I wasn't sure if I could use a VT100 keyboard, but I guessed not, since I know a lot of the VT220 clones had similar looking (and incompatible) keyboards. -Ian From ygehrich at yahoo.com Tue May 22 07:52:19 2007 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 08:52:19 -0400 Subject: digest mode Message-ID: <200705221252.l4MCqTK0061940@keith.ezwind.net> I followed the FAQ to set to digest mode and it does not work. I then changed the destination to list at classiccmp.org and that does not work how do I change to digest mode From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 22 07:58:09 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 08:58:09 -0400 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron...) Message-ID: On 5/22/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > The 101 is the model shaped and colored much like a > > VT100. The keyboard looks similar... but > > its protocol is _not_ compatible with the VT100. > > Good thing I didn't buy the one on eBay a couple > months ago. There was a 101 there, and cheap too, but > it had no keyboard. I may haev a few CiTOH terminals to drag to VCFmw if there's any interest. Closer to the event, I'll inventory what I have and see if I kept any spare keyboards "just in case", if anyone out there already has a terminal, but can't figure out why their VT100 keyboard doesn't work with it. I remember back in the day, since we had dozens of CiTOH and DEC terminals, looking over the available schematics for both and not being able to figure out how the keyboard works. I think it was a matter of inadequate/fuzzy docs more than anything else. Does anyone know of a good printset to pore over to see the nuts-and-bolts of a VT100-era keyboard? ISTR the crux of it was a 6402-type UART squeezing out the keystrokes at some slow baud rate, but I can't recall any essential details right now. I'm just curious if it's possible to swap a crystal or make a simple, switched change to allow one keyboard to work across both vendor's product lines. We used to have lots of dead keyboard when there was one or two terminals on everyone's desk. Since the company was shrinking at that stage, we never bothered fixing them - we just pulled one off a vacant desk and kept working. The number of working keyboards never shrank below the steadily decreasing size of the staff, so economically, it made sense. I think I only saved working keyboards in that set of 4 van loads, but it's entirely possible I picked up one or two dead ones. Right now, I have to search the pile for a VT100 keyboard to get my DECmate I back up and running so I can press it into service as an RX01/RX02 image archiver and finally whittle down my cartons of floppies. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 22 08:28:15 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 08:28:15 -0500 Subject: digest mode In-Reply-To: <200705221252.l4MCqTK0061940@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200705221252.l4MCqTK0061940@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4652EFEF.3090207@yahoo.co.uk> Gene Ehrich wrote: > I followed the FAQ to set to digest mode and it does not work. I think there should be two ways: 1) Via the web interface: go to http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html, fill in your email address in the 'subscription options' box, hit the button, enter your password and hit the log in button, then scroll down and twiddle the digest options before hitting 'submit'. There's a password reminder feature if you need it. 2) Via the email interface: in theory sending an email to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org with 'set digest plain' [1] (without the quotes, obviously) in either the subject or the body of the message should do the job. [1] I'm not sure if 'set digest mime' works too; it might. Presumably of little relevance as we don't (rightly so!) allow attachments on here anyway. Option two probably depends on whether the mail-based admin's all been disabled, but seeing how we're all fans of vintage technology I suspect we'd all far prefer that if one were disabled it was the web interface ;-) Hope that helps... Jules p.s. I just looked at the FAQ. The information's about a decade out of date (which, perversely, makes it on-topic ;) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 22 09:21:22 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 15:21:22 +0100 Subject: DEC remote power controller cable? In-Reply-To: <4652A23C.1030206@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4652A23C.1030206@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4652FC62.4040007@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/05/2007 08:56, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 21/05/2007 18:23, Charles wrote: > >> Am I correct in assuming that I just need a 3-wire extension cable >> between the BA chassis and one of those Power Bus connectors? > There are several DEC cables, of different lengths. I'm puzzled that > you say the connectors aren't identical, though. The normal cable is 3 > wires with a 3-pin AMP Commercial Mate-N-Lok connector on each end. This > is a 3-pin cable-fitting version of the connector used for power on > 5.25" floppies and many hard drives. My BA11-S has this connector > (opposite gender, of course) on the panel. Oops - the CPU end on BA11-SA is the opposite gender from the power controller end, that's why it looks different. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue May 22 02:13:07 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 08:13:07 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F48@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Well that's seems to define the 11/84. How does this all apply to the 11/94 (which is the real problem) Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 21 May 2007 21:41 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Pete Turnbull Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus Okay, since this topic have become a subject of much discussion and some diverse opinions, I decided to really read the manuals to try to find the bottom of this all. My main source of information here have been the "KDJ11-B CPU Module Users's Guide". EK-KDJ1B-UG-001 Now, to start with the position of the CPU card in an 11/84. Chapter 7, section 7.2. Page 7-1: "7.2 PMI INTERFACE The PMI interface signals are defined as the PMI bus master signals, the PMI slave signals and the PMI Unibus adapter signals. These interface signals are assigned to the C and D rows of the backplane and are defined as the interconnect bus. The PMI interface signals on the C/D bus are normally assigned two pins to provide an interconnection between the slots. The KDJ11-B module is only assigned one pin and therefore its position in the backplane is critical. The LSI bus signals that are used with the PMI protocol use the A and B rows of the backplane defined as the LSI bus." Now, if Pete is correct in that the PMI bus on the 11/84 really goes to both pins on all slots, then it should be okay to place the CPU in any slot. I haven't tried that, but I might when I have the time. I suspect he's right since otherwise I would have expected the CPU to be in slot 3. But DEC could be doing some fancy wiring... :-) The fact that the placement is critical is obvious if we talk about Q-bus systems, and I suspect the comment is written from that point of view. As for wether Q-bus memory (or any other Q-bus peripherial) will work, I'll quote some signal descriptions. Chapter 7, page 7-4. Table 7-3 PMI Unibus Adapter Signals "Pin: CF1 Mnemonic: PUBSYS L PMI Unibus System In a Unibus system, PUBSYS L is asserted by the UBA to direct the KDJ11-B to follow PMI protocol for all data transfers, wether the PSSEL L is asserted or not. LSI-11 bus protocol is disabled for all PMI devices when PUBSYS L is asserted. In an LSI-11 system, PUBSYS L is always negated. If PSSEL L is negated, the KDJ11-B follows LSI-11 protocol and the PMI memory then responds to the LSI-11 protocol by the LSI DMA devices." Chapter 7, page 7-5. Table 7-4 LSI Bus Signals "Pin: AF2 Mnemonic: BRPLY L Reply During PMI cycles, BRPLY L is asserted by the KDJ11-B and the PMI slave to prevent the next bus master from gaining control of the bus too soon. In a Unibus system, BRPLY L is asserted by the UBA as a slave response during the PMI DATOB cycle and interrupt DATI cycle. *** NOTE *** The PMI memory slave modules in a Unibus system must have BRPLY L disabled at all times. Pin: AH2 Mnemonic: BDIN L Data Input The BDIN L signal is only used in PMI Unibus systems during interrupt grant cycles. The KDJ11-B asserts BDIN L after it gates the interrupt priority, BDAL bits <3:0>, onto the bus. The UBA then latches the interrupt priority data using the leading edge of BDIN L. Pin: AM2 Mnemonic: BIAKI L Interrupt Acknowledge In Pin: AN2 Mnemonic: BIAKO L Interrupt Acknowledge Out These signals are only used in PMI Unibus systems during the interrupt grant cycles. The KDJ11-B asserts the BIAKI L signal, and the UBDA acknowledges it by asserting one of the Unibus bus grant signals. Pin: BB1 Mnemonic: BPOK H Power OK This signal is only used in PMI Unibus systems for the Unibus power-up/power-down protocol. This signal is asserted and negated by the UBA in response to the Unibus AC LO signal. The assertion of AC LO may be prolonged by the Unibus devices or the PMI memory during power-up." I could go on describing more details on how these signals are used, since it's all described in the manual. Suffice to day that the KDJ11-B *knows* when it's in a Unibus system (i.e 11/84) and will not behave like a normal Qbus. First of all, it will always use PMI protocol to access memory, no matter what the memory might claim. Second, interrupt handling is done differently, since all interrupts are expected to be dealt with via the UBA. There are also schematics for different signals in the manual, and you can clearly find the PUBSYS L signal included in some decoder path as a way to force a specific behaviour independent of other signals that might exist. Now, can we now accept that it's not a Q-bus in the 11/84? :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue May 22 09:41:54 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 15:41:54 +0100 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron...) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I don't know if it helps but I did work on terminals in the early 1970's. Before my days at DEC I did work on keyboards. The usual design was a counter going up to 127 or 255. Pressing a key pulled down the data lines for the number representing the value of the key. This was compared with the output of the counter and when they where the same the counter stopped. Thus at this point the counter held the value of the key. Some counters could be shifted (clocked) out serially or you transferred the value to a shift register and serialized the code that way. UARTS could be used like a shift register. (Parallel in serial out.) Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 22 May 2007 13:58 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well,now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron...) On 5/22/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > The 101 is the model shaped and colored much like a VT100. The > > keyboard looks similar... but its protocol is _not_ compatible with > > the VT100. > > Good thing I didn't buy the one on eBay a couple months ago. There was > a 101 there, and cheap too, but it had no keyboard. I may haev a few CiTOH terminals to drag to VCFmw if there's any interest. Closer to the event, I'll inventory what I have and see if I kept any spare keyboards "just in case", if anyone out there already has a terminal, but can't figure out why their VT100 keyboard doesn't work with it. I remember back in the day, since we had dozens of CiTOH and DEC terminals, looking over the available schematics for both and not being able to figure out how the keyboard works. I think it was a matter of inadequate/fuzzy docs more than anything else. Does anyone know of a good printset to pore over to see the nuts-and-bolts of a VT100-era keyboard? ISTR the crux of it was a 6402-type UART squeezing out the keystrokes at some slow baud rate, but I can't recall any essential details right now. I'm just curious if it's possible to swap a crystal or make a simple, switched change to allow one keyboard to work across both vendor's product lines. We used to have lots of dead keyboard when there was one or two terminals on everyone's desk. Since the company was shrinking at that stage, we never bothered fixing them - we just pulled one off a vacant desk and kept working. The number of working keyboards never shrank below the steadily decreasing size of the staff, so economically, it made sense. I think I only saved working keyboards in that set of 4 van loads, but it's entirely possible I picked up one or two dead ones. Right now, I have to search the pile for a VT100 keyboard to get my DECmate I back up and running so I can press it into service as an RX01/RX02 image archiver and finally whittle down my cartons of floppies. -ethan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue May 22 10:02:34 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 16:02:34 +0100 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron...) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I have just remembered how the later version keyboards worked. It was still a counter sytem but the values where fully decoded. It worked on a matrix system. Each key on the keyboard sat across the junction of one of the matrix points. The columns, say 16. Would be the output of a 4 in 16 out decoder and the rows were the inputs of a say 16 in four out encoder. Stopping the clock by pressing a key gave you an 8 bit keycode. Serialize in the usual way. Finally dedicated chips appeared. But same old matrix system. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 22 May 2007 13:58 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well,now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron...) On 5/22/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > The 101 is the model shaped and colored much like a VT100. The > > keyboard looks similar... but its protocol is _not_ compatible with > > the VT100. > > Good thing I didn't buy the one on eBay a couple months ago. There was > a 101 there, and cheap too, but it had no keyboard. I may haev a few CiTOH terminals to drag to VCFmw if there's any interest. Closer to the event, I'll inventory what I have and see if I kept any spare keyboards "just in case", if anyone out there already has a terminal, but can't figure out why their VT100 keyboard doesn't work with it. I remember back in the day, since we had dozens of CiTOH and DEC terminals, looking over the available schematics for both and not being able to figure out how the keyboard works. I think it was a matter of inadequate/fuzzy docs more than anything else. Does anyone know of a good printset to pore over to see the nuts-and-bolts of a VT100-era keyboard? ISTR the crux of it was a 6402-type UART squeezing out the keystrokes at some slow baud rate, but I can't recall any essential details right now. I'm just curious if it's possible to swap a crystal or make a simple, switched change to allow one keyboard to work across both vendor's product lines. We used to have lots of dead keyboard when there was one or two terminals on everyone's desk. Since the company was shrinking at that stage, we never bothered fixing them - we just pulled one off a vacant desk and kept working. The number of working keyboards never shrank below the steadily decreasing size of the staff, so economically, it made sense. I think I only saved working keyboards in that set of 4 van loads, but it's entirely possible I picked up one or two dead ones. Right now, I have to search the pile for a VT100 keyboard to get my DECmate I back up and running so I can press it into service as an RX01/RX02 image archiver and finally whittle down my cartons of floppies. -ethan From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Tue May 22 12:04:31 2007 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 19:04:31 +0200 Subject: Norsk Data for pickup in the Netherlands Message-ID: <000c01c79c93$44492b80$0501a8c0@xp1800> I'm getting a bit short on space. So for who wants it, a have a Norsk Data ND-110 compact including manuals an software (Sintran) with a Tandberg terminal. It's only for pickup or DIY-shipment I'm not packing or posting this one. Gr. Rik contact me at : dr.emiel at xs4all dot nl From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 22 11:59:23 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 12:59:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: digest mode In-Reply-To: <4652EFEF.3090207@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200705221252.l4MCqTK0061940@keith.ezwind.net> <4652EFEF.3090207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200705221704.NAA05373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Option two probably depends on whether the mail-based admin's all > been disabled, but seeing how we're all fans of vintage technology I > suspect we'd all far prefer that if one were disabled it was the web > interface ;-) If I ever become unable to manage my subscription entirely by email, that's when I'm outta here. With only one exception, I don't use email lists for which my subscription can't be managed by email. (The exception is an ICANN governance thing I considered Really Important; it also helped that the people involved appeared to think the email way should work and was broken rather than appearing to think the Web way was Obviously All Anyone Should Want.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 22 12:39:24 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 10:39:24 -0700 Subject: FOG DOS discs Message-ID: <46532ACC.9080405@bitsavers.org> > > these? > > - http://www.znode51.de/fog/filelist.htm nope. Those are the CP/M and Language discs FOG started supporting DOS later. The master discs that were donated to the Computer History Museum start around 1986 and go to 1990 (vol 408). There were also specialty collections for various CP/M boxes, but unfortunately they are water/mold damaged are are unreadable (the discs are glued to the inner sleeve). I'm grinding through FOG_DOS today, and will put them up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG later today when I've finished reading them. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 22 12:55:40 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 18:55:40 +0100 Subject: FOG DOS discs In-Reply-To: <46532ACC.9080405@bitsavers.org> References: <46532ACC.9080405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > CP/M boxes, but unfortunately they are water/mold > damaged are are unreadable (the discs are glued > to the inner sleeve). > I had water damaged disks some years ago, I washed and dried them and got most data back (removed from sleeves) Dave Caroline From arcarlini at iee.org Tue May 22 13:26:23 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 19:26:23 +0100 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848841C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <004901c79c9e$b8df3470$c901a8c0@uatempname> >Nope :-( >The link "Decus Empire for VAX/VMS" redirects to the same URL as the "FTP" icon on the above link: >ftp://ftp.encompassus.org/lib/v00012/ >and that fails. Works for me. I could email the .zip to you. Can your email reader handle an 87KB attachment :-) Antonio From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue May 22 13:43:06 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 20:43:06 +0200 Subject: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... References: <004901c79c9e$b8df3470$c901a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9C2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens arcarlini at iee.org Verzonden: di 22-05-2007 20:26 Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Onderwerp: RE: Well,now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron... >>Nope :-( >>The link "Decus Empire for VAX/VMS" redirects to the same URL as the >"FTP" icon on the above link: >>ftp://ftp.encompassus.org/lib/v00012/ and that fails. > >Works for me. I could email the .zip to you. Can your email reader >handle >an 87KB attachment :-) > >Antonio Thanks Antonio, but Lee already was so kind to do the download and make it available to me. It puzzled me though why I could not access it ... thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 22 13:51:28 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 14:51:28 -0400 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, now I've gone and done it... Dragged home more big(ish) iron...) In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On 5/22/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I have just remembered how the later version keyboards worked. > It was still a counter sytem but the values where fully decoded. > It worked on a matrix system. > Each key on the keyboard sat across the junction of one of the matrix > points. Thanks for those technical tidbits, Rod. What you wrote resonates with what I remember of my explorations of 15 years ago. The UARTs in the keyboards were of the type that worked like a PISO shift register, but with start and stop bits "for free"; no CPU required to set up the UART - all pin-selectable options (like the INS6402, as I said). I'll have to cast a careful eye at how the matrix ties into the UART and I think this will all make more sense. Since I first tried to tackle this, I've spent a lot of time reading the "CMOS Cookbook" and the "TTL Cookbook" - lots of strange counter-based things in there. I was just learning how logic devices functioned back in their heyday, so I'm OK with straightforward uses, but some of the really clever tricks I have to study before I get. Thanks again, Rod. -ethan From bqt at softjar.se Tue May 22 14:23:57 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:23:57 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus In-Reply-To: <200705221704.l4MH2lHc065780@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705221704.l4MH2lHc065780@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4653434D.8030603@softjar.se> "Rod Smallwood" skrev: > Hi > > Well that's seems to define the 11/84. > How does this all apply to the 11/94 > (which is the real problem) Well, the UBA is the same, so the same PMI Unibus signals are originated at that end. No memory can exist in an 11/94 though, since all the memory are on board. However, the communication between the CPU and UBA is using the PMI protocol, still. However, the dealings with interrupts and so on must still be done in the same way as for the 11/84 as well. So I would say that the 11/94 behaves exactly like the 11/84. (Do anyone know if an 11/94 with 2 megs on board could use an external 2 megs?) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 22 15:28:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 14:28:15 -0600 Subject: FOG DOS discs In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 22 May 2007 18:55:40 +0100. Message-ID: In article , "Dave Caroline" writes: > > CP/M boxes, but unfortunately they are water/mold > > damaged are are unreadable (the discs are glued > > to the inner sleeve). > > > I had water damaged disks some years ago, I washed and dried them and > got most data back (removed from sleeves) Interesting! Can you describe the procedure you used to wash them? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 22 15:49:59 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:49:59 +0100 Subject: FOG DOS discs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Interesting! Can you describe the procedure you used to wash them? > -- hmm long long time ago, we had some building work done and extended the building upwards, of course the weather turned bad over the weekend, with the obvious wet and gritty result, Luckily it was only a couple of days and the floppies were still wet. So I cut the sleeves off and rinsed under the tap iirc no agressive cleaning fluids needed. Then dried (tissue paper) and place in between listing paper to fully dry and keep flat. Then a clean floppy was cut open to use the sleeve and the data recovered. Also making sure the floppy heads were clean during the operation. Took about a day iirc. This was back in the days when the Commodore PET was THE computer at work. Dave Caroline From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 22 15:56:55 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 14:56:55 -0600 Subject: FOG DOS discs In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 22 May 2007 21:49:59 +0100. Message-ID: In article , "Dave Caroline" writes: > > Interesting! Can you describe the procedure you used to wash them? > > hmm long long time ago, we had some building work done and extended > the building upwards, of course the weather turned bad over the > weekend, with the obvious wet and gritty result, [...] It sounds like Al's problem is much worse then. I wonder if there is some sort of soaking that could be done to loosen the floppy from its jacket and then attempt A/D recovery via the read-head of a floppy drive similar to the way he recovers 9-track tapes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 22 16:03:13 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:03:13 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <200705211319.23197.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200705210330.l4L3TfXQ039942@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46515982.2020006@softjar.se> <200705211319.23197.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46535A91.3020506@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/05/2007 18:19, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 21 May 2007 04:34, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Pat, what you have is what I would describe as an 11/93 with an >> Qniverter. That will not be exactly the same thing as an 11/94. The >> KTJ11-B, which is DECs Unibus adapter, have some special signals >> to the CPU telling it that the KTJ11 is there, and that changes the >> behaviour of the Qbus, according to the manuals. > > I'd agree, but the case quite clearly has a Digital logo on it, an > 11/94 placard, and has a note on the side that it was upgraded to an > 11/94 from an 11/84. I see no evidence that DEC didn't sell this > machine as it currently is configured, as an 11/94 (or 11/84). DEC certainly sold upgrade kits to convert an 11/84 to an 11/94; the backplanes are the same, and the kit included new processor, cables, and instructions, etc. Plus the badge and a sticker for the backplane to note the upgrade. I don't have the complete details to hand, but it's in one of the 11/94 manuals on bitsavers. > One more interesting bit about it is the QBUS backplane... the first 3 > slots are quad-width Q/CD slots for the memory and CPU, and the rest of the > slots (quite a few, maybe 6 or 8?) are hex-width slots that are Q/Q > serpentine on the left 4 fingers, and CD on the right 2 fingers. That is odd. Can you see a number on the backplane? Does this machine have two backplanes, one entirely QBus and one entirely Unibus? If the whole of the CPU backplane is QBus, I sort of agree with Johnny that it's not a "real" 11/94, although software probably can't tell the difference. According to my manuals, there are two backplanes for 11/84 systems. The Users and Maintenance Guide for the 11/84-A (and -P) (EK-1184A-MG-001, June 1988) shows a 13-slot H9277A, part number 70-20650-01. The Users and Maintenance Guides for the 11/84-D and -E (EK-1184D-MG-001, EK-1184E-MG-001, June 1988) show a 9-slot H9277B, part number 70-17228-01. But in both cases, the slots below slot 4 are Unibus. Specifically, for the 9-slot backplane, the slots are listed as Slot 1 quad width Q22/CD for CPU Slot 2 quad width Q22/CD for memory Slot 3 quad width Q22/CD for memory or MLM Slot 4 hex width special for KTJ11B Slot 5 hex width Unibus/SPC for hex or quad Unibus device Slot 6 hex width Unibus/SPC for hex or quad Unibus device Slot 7 hex width MUD/SPC for hex or quad Unibus device Slot 8 hex width MUD/SPC for hex or quad Unibus device Slot 9 hex width Unibus out/SPC for quad Unibus or M7556 MLM Another difference is that the topmost slot in the H9277A (labelled MDM, it would be slot 0 rather than slot 1, if they were all numbered) is for the monitor board. That doesn't seem to be the case in the H9277B, where the topmost slot is slot 1, for the processor. In both cases, though, the top slots are quad slots for CPU and memory, and the rest are hex. The H9277B is also the backplane used in 11/94-E systems. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 22 16:11:39 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:11:39 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus In-Reply-To: <4653434D.8030603@softjar.se> References: <200705221704.l4MH2lHc065780@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4653434D.8030603@softjar.se> Message-ID: <46535C8B.5050409@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/05/2007 20:23, Johnny Billquist wrote: > "Rod Smallwood" skrev: > > Well that's seems to define the 11/84. > > How does this all apply to the 11/94 > > (which is the real problem) > > Well, the UBA is the same, so the same PMI Unibus signals are originated > at that end. > No memory can exist in an 11/94 though, since all the memory are on > board. However, the communication between the CPU and UBA is using the > PMI protocol, still. > > However, the dealings with interrupts and so on must still be done in > the same way as for the 11/84 as well. > > So I would say that the 11/94 behaves exactly like the 11/84. Even the backplane is the same, at least the same as the 11/84-E and 11/84-D systems. > (Do anyone know if an 11/94 with 2 megs on board could use an external 2 > megs?) Since all the relevant QBus and PMI signals must be on the CPU card, in order that the KDJ11 and the KTJ11 can communicate, and everything else is the same as an 11/84, it ought to work. The only issue I can think of is that the 11/94 uses parity memory, whereas the most common 11/84 memory cards are MSV11-J ECC memory. Presumably using MSV11-RA parity memory would get round that, if it were a problem. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 22 16:17:45 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:17:45 +0100 Subject: FOG DOS discs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes I got lucky they weren't too dirty and no lifeform had started to use the floppies as lunch. Also depends on glues holding the oxide on, would be worth an experiment with soaking. Or keep dry (to stop lower lifeforms from spreading) and store till a good method is found. Against further storage is the fact that a dry atmosphere may also cause some damage to the oxide (dry out lubricant) or base material (some plastics outgas and go brittle). Dave Caroline From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue May 22 16:23:18 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 14:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale Message-ID: <397642.11777.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> "Rawn's Buy & Sell Network" in Burnaby BC (Canada), says he has a warehouse fill of old computers to hopefully sell as a lot. Consists of mostly 80s and 90s systems, like Apple, Macs, IBMs, Next, Commodore, Atari, Tandy, Hyperion, etc. as well as tons of software. Here are some pics he sent me: http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/oldpics/old.html Do not contact me, please contact: rawnsbuysell at lightspeed.ca Enjoy! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 22 16:50:40 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:50:40 +0100 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <397642.11777.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 22/5/07 22:23, "steven stengel" wrote: > > "Rawn's Buy & Sell Network" in Burnaby BC (Canada), > says he has a warehouse fill of old computers to > hopefully sell as a lot. > > Consists of mostly 80s and 90s systems, like Apple, > Macs, IBMs, Next, Commodore, Atari, Tandy, Hyperion, > etc. as well as tons of software. > Good grief, I thought I had a problem shifting half that amount 250 miles! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 22 16:55:40 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 15:55:40 -0600 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 22 May 2007 14:23:18 -0700. <397642.11777.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <397642.11777.qm at web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, steven stengel writes: > Consists of mostly 80s and 90s systems, like Apple, > Macs, IBMs, Next, Commodore, Atari, Tandy, Hyperion, > etc. as well as tons of software. The thing that's tough about this sort of thing is that the inventory description is just guess work on their part. If they had bothered to inventory the whole thing, he'd be selling the items on ebay I suppose. However, I wouldn't take the description as anything approximating accurate. You'd have to inspect the lot yourself in person to really know. For instance, this picture is an HP264x terminal base: Who knows if the keyboard is also around. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 22 17:25:56 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 15:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 22, 2007 03:55:40 PM Message-ID: <200705222225.l4MMPupL013753@onyx.spiritone.com> > approximating accurate. You'd have to inspect the lot yourself in > person to really know. For instance, this picture is an HP264x > terminal base: > > > Who knows if the keyboard is also around. I also noticed tons of Commodore slabs, but didn't see a single power brick. I would hope there are shelves of power bricks as well, but who knows. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 22 16:15:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:15:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: <143659.57595.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 21, 7 04:05:09 pm Message-ID: > take no offense at my previous comment. It's just > that I'd have needed better graphics (and clockspeed, > and...) to brave the wilds of dos incompatibility in > order to commit to such a system back when they were > current. All of the other pseudo compatibles have much > more to offer, and the Rainbow seemed to drift into Waht does a Sirius (Vixtor 9000) or an HP150 have to offer that a 'bow doesn't? The 'bow graphics card had a limited vertical resolution (200 pixels?) but apart from that it was pretty good. It had a 7220 graphics chip on it, it had a colour lookup table. Darn it, it had colour (the HP150 and the Sirius seem to be monochrome only). The 'bow also has the Z80 processor and can run CP/M 80 programs IIRC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 22 16:40:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:40:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at May 22, 7 04:02:34 pm Message-ID: > > Hi > I have just remembered how the later version keyboards worked. > It was still a counter sytem but the values where fully decoded. > It worked on a matrix system. > Each key on the keyboard sat across the junction of one of the matrix > points. One of the oddest ones I've worked on was the HP98203 -- the little keyboard used on the HP9816. The interface has 2 signal lines, power and ground. One signal is a clock line from the machine to the keyboard. The other is a bidirectional line, from the machine to the keyboard it indicates the start of a scan, from the keyboard to the machine it indicates the state of a 'key'. After the reset, the thing effectively sends 128 bits, clocked by the clock line. These represent not only the states of all the keys, but also the state of 8 internal configuration links, and 8 bits for the twiddleknob counter and direction. Now for the odd part. The keyboard swtiches are not wired as a matrix. One side of each switch is grounded. The other side goes to an input on a 4051 mux. Scanning is done by a 7 bit counter (4024 IIRC) and a 1-16 decoder (4514) to select the individual 4051s. No idea why they did it this way, but they did. The other thing to watch for are keybaords that don't use contact closure as a way of detecting a key is pressed. There have been inductive keyboards (pressing a key completes a magnetic core, thus increading the coupling between a couple of tracks/wires (e.g. the Termiprinter). Balanced transformer keybaord, whenre presisgn a key damps one of a pair of pulse transformers allowing a signal from the other one to get through (e,g. HP9810). Saturated core keyboards, where 2 wires are linked by a magnetic core, which is normally satureated by a permanent magnet. Pressing a key moves the magnet away, increasding the coupling between the wires (e,.g. Nascom, HP9845). Capactitive keyvoards (Keytronics) are common, but HP used a capacitive membrane mechanism in the HP46021 IIRC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 22 17:22:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 23:22:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 22, 7 08:58:09 am Message-ID: > I remember back in the day, since we had dozens of CiTOH and DEC > terminals, looking over the available schematics for both and not > being able to figure out how the keyboard works. I think it was a I'm not suprised you had trouble understanding it. Bits of it are not at all obvious. I'm working for my (paper) VT100 printset, I hope it's similar enough to the one on bitsavers (or wherever) to be able to follow me. Anyway, you're right that it uses 6402 or similar UARTs. What makes the interfave complciated is that there are only 3 wires (+12V power, ground, and a single signal line) and that there's no clock oscillator circuit in the keyboard. In other words, one line carries the clock from the terminal to the keybard and data both ways. Start on the 'VT1100 Basic Video' sheet 6 (BV6). The keyboard communciation UART is E55. The transmit and receive clocks (same signal on both) comes from LBA4 H, which is, I think, just a convenient clock frequency (It stands for Line Buffer Address bit 4 I think). The circuitry round E28 seems to be a pulse width modulator, controled by the trasnmit data pin (Serial Out) of the UART. It sends a pulse to the keybard, the width of which depends on the current bit to send. The (analogue-ish) circuitry round E40b separates the data bits from the keuyboard from the signal produced by said modulator, and sends the incoming data to the UART. OK, now to the keyboard. 'VT100 Full Keyboard' sheet 1 (KB1) Again we kave a circuit to separate the incoming and outgoing data here E2b. The incoming stream provides the clock to the UART, it also goes into E2a, which would seem to be a monostable cirucit, which thus demodulates the PWM signal. The output of that goes to the serial input on the UART. Data from the UART foes via E9f and E5d and then back to the terminal E12 is, of course, the UART. Received data (8 bits) controls the LEDs, speaker, and starts the scan (of which more in a momnet) E7 and E10 are the scan counter, clocked, essentially by the same clock that clocks the UART (but it can be paused while the UART is transmitting by E4) At the end of a scan, E3b is set, thus stopping the counter by holding it reset until the scan is restarted by the received data bit mentioned above. When the scan gets to the position of a pressed key, KB2 KEY DOWN L is asserted, thsi causes the UART to transmit the current value of the scan counter, so the key 'code' is transmitted back to the terminal. OK, over the page to sheet 2 (KB2). There's a nice, conventional matrix of swtiches. The rows are driven by E11 and E13, which are controlled by the bottom 4 bits of the scan counter. The cloums are selected one at a time by E14, controleld by the top 3 bits of the scan counter. Thus each switch is seelcted in turn and its state fef to KB2 KEY DOWN L. As I said above, if a key is pressed, the scna count is sent back to the terminal. Hope that helps a bit -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 22 17:42:06 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 19:42:06 -0300 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale References: <397642.11777.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <066e01c79cc2$7e983040$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Consists of mostly 80s and 90s systems, like Apple, > Macs, IBMs, Next, Commodore, Atari, Tandy, Hyperion, > etc. as well as tons of software. > Here are some pics he sent me: > http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/oldpics/old.html Whatsdat? Heaven? :oO From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 22 17:37:58 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 23:37:58 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus In-Reply-To: <465203DD.2090400@softjar.se> References: <465203DD.2090400@softjar.se> Message-ID: <465370C6.7030907@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/05/2007 21:41, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Okay, since this topic have become a subject of much discussion and some > diverse opinions, I decided to really read the manuals to try to find > the bottom of this all. So did I :-) > Now, to start with the position of the CPU card in an 11/84. > > Chapter 7, section 7.2. Page 7-1: > "7.2 PMI INTERFACE [...] > The LSI bus signals that are used > with the PMI protocol use the A and B rows of the backplane defined as > the LSI bus." Well, just before we deal with the CPU position, didn't you notice that the above says it uses the LSI bus? That is, it uses QBus :-) > Now, if Pete is correct in that the PMI bus on the 11/84 really goes to > both pins on all slots, then it should be okay to place the CPU in any > slot. I haven't tried that, but I might when I have the time. I suspect > he's right since otherwise I would have expected the CPU to be in slot > 3. But DEC could be doing some fancy wiring... :-) No, I knew they hadn't done anything fancy because I'd checked the wiring diagram for the backplane. Still, it's not exactly true that you can put the CPU in any of the top slots equivalently. This evening I remembered the SRUN L signal which drives the RUN light, and it's only connected to slot 1 in an 11/84, at least in the backplanes I checked the wiring for. If you don't care about the light, put the CPU in any of the QBus slots :-) > As for wether Q-bus memory (or any other Q-bus peripherial) will work, > I'll quote some signal descriptions. > > Chapter 7, page 7-4. Table 7-3 PMI Unibus Adapter Signals > "Pin: CF1 Mnemonic: PUBSYS L PMI Unibus System > > In a Unibus system, PUBSYS L is asserted by the UBA to direct the > KDJ11-B to follow PMI protocol for all data transfers, wether the PSSEL > L is asserted or not. LSI-11 bus protocol is disabled for all PMI > devices when PUBSYS L is asserted. But is that asserted all the time? I see nothing to say so. > Chapter 7, page 7-5. Table 7-4 LSI Bus Signals > > "Pin: AF2 Mnemonic: BRPLY L Reply > > During PMI cycles, BRPLY L is asserted by the KDJ11-B and the PMI slave > to prevent the next bus master from gaining control of the bus too soon. > In a Unibus system, BRPLY L is asserted by the UBA as a slave response > during the PMI DATOB cycle and interrupt DATI cycle. So? > Pin: AH2 Mnemonic: BDIN L Data Input > > The BDIN L signal is only used in PMI Unibus systems during interrupt > grant cycles. The KDJ11-B asserts BDIN L after it gates the interrupt > priority, BDAL bits <3:0>, onto the bus. The UBA then latches the > interrupt priority data using the leading edge of BDIN L. Of course, if you have a PMI memory, you don't use BDIN, you use PRDSTB instead. That doesn't mean it won't work if you start a non-PMI bus cycle. The writer was simply assuming that everything not on the Unibus side was using PMI, and therefore wouldn't use BDIN. It doesn't mean it can't be used. > Pin: AM2 Mnemonic: BIAKI L Interrupt Acknowledge In > Pin: AN2 Mnemonic: BIAKO L Interrupt Acknowledge Out > > These signals are only used in PMI Unibus systems during the interrupt > grant cycles. The KDJ11-B asserts the BIAKI L signal, and the UBDA > acknowledges it by asserting one of the Unibus bus grant signals. Well, of course. So what? > Pin: BB1 Mnemonic: BPOK H Power OK > > This signal is only used in PMI Unibus systems for the Unibus > power-up/power-down protocol. This signal is asserted and negated by the > UBA in response to the Unibus AC LO signal. The assertion of AC LO may > be prolonged by the Unibus devices or the PMI memory during power-up." Again, there's normally nothing else in these systems that would want to use it. All that says is that the only thing DEC put in, that cares about it, is the power up/down logic. Just like QBus. > I could go on describing more details on how these signals are used, > since it's all described in the manual. You could, and so could I :-) > Now, can we now accept that it's not a Q-bus in the 11/84? :-) No. There's still a QBus, even if the system normally uses PMI protocol. You think it's omnibus? ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bpope at wordstock.com Tue May 22 17:54:17 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 18:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <397642.11777.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070522225417.A45EA5896F@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by steven stengel > > > "Rawn's Buy & Sell Network" in Burnaby BC (Canada), > says he has a warehouse fill of old computers to > hopefully sell as a lot. > > Consists of mostly 80s and 90s systems, like Apple, > Macs, IBMs, Next, Commodore, Atari, Tandy, Hyperion, > etc. as well as tons of software. > > Here are some pics he sent me: > http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/oldpics/old.html > > Do not contact me, please contact: > rawnsbuysell at lightspeed.ca > Ack! When I first read the subject line I read "1000 year old computer in Canada, for sale" ! heh.. Cheers, Bryan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 22 18:28:14 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 16:28:14 -0700 Subject: FOG DOS discs Message-ID: <46537C8E.80603@bitsavers.org> > I wonder if there is > some sort of soaking that could be done to loosen the floppy from its > jacket The floppies were in VERY bad condition. Years of mosture, black mold on the labels, softening and general destruction of the oxide and binder including mold on the disk itself. Since there are thousands of discs to go through, the data may appear on later backups. I also have personally had problems with nasal infections from working with contaminated material like this in the past, so I made the decision to discard them. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 22 18:45:04 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 16:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Original PC Needs Rescue In-Reply-To: <410052.67424.qm@web52302.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <602933.93405.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> seemingly a windfall for someone. You should tell that dude to put the stuff up on eBay and cash in. 10/82 does sound a bit late though. --- Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Hey, all, > > I've got mail from somebody with an original IBM PC > from the first batch > to be sold by IBM to its own employees. Apparently > they selected employees > from a list by lottery to determine what order to > deliver them, this was > in the middle of the list, delivered in October > 1982. (Isn't that a little > late for first batch? Was the production rate not > up to demand at first?) > > Anyway, there are several pieces: system unit, > keyboard, monitor, etc.; > mostly (or all?) in original cartons with docs & > software & such, some > still in shrink wrap. > > There is also some amount of PS/1 stuff, available > together with the PC > stuff or separately, depending on who wants what, > the order in which > responses arrive, and the phase of the moon. > > This stuff is all in Colorado, but the owner is > willing to pay shipping > (presumably assuming domestic!) so the location > doesn't much matter. > > I'll collect responses and forward them in a batch, > and the owner will > decide who to contact and so on. > > Cheers, > Bill. > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Get > the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the > added security of spyware protection. > http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php > ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 22 18:54:22 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 16:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FOG DOS discs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <378087.95054.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave Caroline wrote: > > CP/M boxes, but unfortunately they are water/mold > > damaged are are unreadable (the discs are glued > > to the inner sleeve). > > > I had water damaged disks some years ago, I washed > and dried them and > got most data back (removed from sleeves) > > Dave Caroline I was actually going to suggest this. Even letting them dry out could help. I had a MASM 2.0 disk I tried to read, no go. Picked it up a year or 2 later and voila to my amazement it imaged. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 22 18:55:51 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 18:55:51 -0500 Subject: Original PC Needs Rescue References: <602933.93405.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <054201c79ccc$bfa12920$6800a8c0@BILLING> Chrism wrote.... > You should tell that > dude to put the stuff up on eBay and cash in. 10/82 > does sound a bit late though. WTF? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 22 19:01:36 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <263489.23925.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Waht does a Sirius (Vixtor 9000) or an HP150 have to > offer that a 'bow > doesn't? > > The 'bow graphics card had a limited vertical > resolution (200 pixels?) > but apart from that it was pretty good. It had a > 7220 graphics chip on > it, it had a colour lookup table. Darn it, it had > colour (the HP150 and > the Sirius seem to be monochrome only). Ok, so in the color graphics category, I assume we can agree the Rainbow was the least spectacular of the pseudo compatibles. Pretty much standard amongst that group was 400 lines of resolution. My whole point was the graphics should be noticeably better to buy something that didn't have oodles of software packages available (this was the big seller for the IBM/100%ers back in that day. Typically those didn't have killer graphics or anything, but there was no want of anything in the software department.) I don't know a whole lot about the HP 150's (had several in my grasp last year...). The Victor/Sirius had nice floppy storage though. As soon as I figure out why my 1 *working* V9000 billows smoke after running for a couple of minutes, I might be able to tell you more about it LOL. ____________________________________________________________________________________You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 22 19:07:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <066e01c79cc2$7e983040$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <634122.4158.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Consists of mostly 80s and 90s systems, like > Apple, > > Macs, IBMs, Next, Commodore, Atari, Tandy, > Hyperion, > > etc. as well as tons of software. > > Here are some pics he sent me: > > > http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/oldpics/old.html > > Whatsdat? Heaven? :oO Terry Yager used to refer to a similar load of stuff he was in charge of Computer Hell! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ____________________________________________________________________________________Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 22 19:32:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:32:42 -0700 Subject: FOG DOS discs In-Reply-To: <378087.95054.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <378087.95054.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4653293A.6281.1E7BEE8F@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 May 2007 at 16:54, Chris M wrote: > I was actually going to suggest this. Even letting > them dry out could help. I had a MASM 2.0 disk I tried > to read, no go. Picked it up a year or 2 later and > voila to my amazement it imaged. If, as Al has stated, mold has invaded the binder, the disks are a lost cause. And probably not safe to keep around--there are some very nasty (read: dangerous to your health) varieties that can develop. Definitely hazmat-category stuff. When I'm working with old diskettes on which someone has spilled coffee (or even in one case, champagne), I use distilled water with a photo wetting agent, such as Kodak Photo-Flo. Rinse and allow to dry. Occasionally, disks will come in from machine shop environments soaked in oil. I've found that rinsing in ordinary paint thinner, followed by a water+few drops of dishwashing liquid, followed by distilled water+PF rinse appears to work just fine. But mold can be nasty--it sends tiny filaments into the binder and dislodges the oxide layer from the substrate. While rinsing in a hypochlorite solution will kill the mold, damage to the coating is usually irreversible. I'll proceed only if the customer can be content with "bits and pieces" of his original. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 22 19:43:02 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FOG DOS discs In-Reply-To: <4653293A.6281.1E7BEE8F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <172788.81113.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > But mold can be nasty--it sends tiny filaments into > the binder and > dislodges the oxide layer from the substrate. While > rinsing in a > hypochlorite solution will kill the mold, damage to > the coating is > usually irreversible. I'll proceed only if the > customer can be > content with "bits and pieces" of his original. I don't know what hypochlorite is (bleach?). An ammonia solution is good for cleaning certain types of gunk, but don't know what it would do to a disk surface. I guess if you're desperate though, you could try anything. ____________________________________________________________________________________Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 22 19:44:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1 or 2 Tandy 2000's for trade Message-ID: <362349.64631.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> I'm continually thinning this accumulation of mine. Anyone have anything to trade for a Tandy 2000 sans monitor (but all of mine have the color graphics option). ____________________________________________________________________________________Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 22 19:46:23 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC 7220's Message-ID: <745214.62143.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Has anyone come upon a source of preferably NOS 7220's? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 22 20:02:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:02:19 -0400 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/22/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > I remember back in the day, since we had dozens of CiTOH and DEC > > terminals, looking over the available schematics for both and not > > being able to figure out how the keyboard works. I think it was a > > I'm not suprised you had trouble understanding it. Bits of it are not at > all obvious. Indeed it isn't, but I had a go at the VT100 Technical Reference Guide I found a reference to via vt100.net, and more of it makes sense now, especially the combination clock and bidirectional data line. That's a lot of work for one wire. The 4-wire LK201 interface is much more up my alley. > Hope that helps a bit Yes. Thanks, Tony! -ethan From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 22 20:11:22 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 02:11:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: FOG DOS discs In-Reply-To: <172788.81113.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <591254.67968.qm@web23409.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yes, hypochlorite is bleach. We use it at work (I work at a lab) to clean various things. Though the items that are cleaned have to be very thoroughly washed afterwards otherwise it can interfere with various analyses (eg. pH). The stuff we buy in is around 10-14% concentration if I recall correctly. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Chris M wrote: I don't know what hypochlorite is (bleach?). An ammonia solution is good for cleaning certain types of gunk, but don't know what it would do to a disk surface. I guess if you're desperate though, you could try anything. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 22 20:26:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:26:16 -0400 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <20070522225417.A45EA5896F@mail.wordstock.com> References: <397642.11777.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070522225417.A45EA5896F@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 5/22/07, Bryan Pope wrote: > Ack! When I first read the subject line I read "1000 year > old computer in Canada, for sale" ! heh.. Heh... I did too, at first glance. I think it was the lack of the 's' on the end of 'computer' that did it to my parser. -ethan From rcini at optonline.net Tue May 22 20:34:59 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:34:59 -0400 Subject: 1 or 2 Tandy 2000's for trade In-Reply-To: <362349.64631.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Similarly, I have a 2000HD machine with VM1 and color graphics card that I'd be willing to trade for KIM-1 stuff. This one (just like my other one) has a flaky hard drive controller. Drive has lots of software on it but it only boots 1/3 of the time. On 5/22/07 8:44 PM, "Chris M" wrote: > I'm continually thinning this accumulation of mine. > Anyone have anything to trade for a Tandy 2000 sans > monitor (but all of mine have the color graphics option). > > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > ______Need a vacation? Get great deals > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > http://travel.yahoo.com/ Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue May 22 21:02:06 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:02:06 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F48@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F48@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4653A09E.1080800@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Well that's seems to define the 11/84. >How does this all apply to the 11/94 >(which is the real problem) > Jerome Fine replies: Since the PDP-11/94 CPU will be the ONLY board you use in those first few slots, if you have a 4 MB version, there can't be any questions left (as far as I understand). So the answer will be found in the early replies: MONEY!! If I remember correctly, the PDP-11/93 CPU is still much more expensive than the PDP-11/83 CPU when combined with PMI memory. Now if you have an RT-11 question, that I can probably answer. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue May 22 21:04:01 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:04:01 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus In-Reply-To: <46535C8B.5050409@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200705221704.l4MH2lHc065780@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4653434D.8030603@softjar.se> <46535C8B.5050409@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4653A111.4080203@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > >On 22/05/2007 20:23, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> (Do anyone know if an 11/94 with 2 megs on board could use an >> external 2 megs?) > > Since all the relevant QBus and PMI signals must be on the CPU card, > in order that the KDJ11 and the KTJ11 can communicate, and everything > else is the same as an 11/84, it ought to work. The only issue I can > think of is that the 11/94 uses parity memory, whereas the most common > 11/84 memory cards are MSV11-J ECC memory. Presumably using MSV11-RA > parity memory would get round that, if it were a problem. Jerome Fine replies: EVERY time DEC answered that question, the answer was ALWAYS that the PDP-11/93 CPU is NOT allowed or able to use memory on the Qbus. I can attempt to find and old DEC catalogue, but I VERY clearly remember reading that Qbus memory of any kind was NOT allowed when a PDP-11/93 was used on the Qbus. Of course, considering that DEC sold the extra memory for about $ 3000 for the extra 2 MB (the PDP-11/93 board had 2 versions - 2 MB and 4 MB of memory), there might have been hidden reason for the information. Does anyone have a 2 MB PDP-11/93 board and have any extra memory active (NOT as fast probably but it still works) and running without any problems on the Qbus? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 22 21:15:37 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 19:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070522191500.H73076@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 May 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Waht does a Sirius (Vixtor 9000) or an HP150 have to offer that a 'bow > doesn't? The Sirius/Victor had a much more unique disk format From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 22 21:26:50 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 19:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <20070522225417.A45EA5896F@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070522225417.A45EA5896F@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20070522192340.O73076@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 May 2007, Bryan Pope wrote: > Ack! When I first read the subject line I read "1000 year > old computer in Canada, for sale" ! heh.. So did I. Hmmmm. The North American peoples weren't into that kind of technology; Eric the Red didn't seem likely to be much into computers; I'd never heard of any Mayan activity that far north, . . . From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 22 22:18:41 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 23:18:41 -0400 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <46535A91.3020506@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200705210330.l4L3TfXQ039942@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200705211319.23197.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46535A91.3020506@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200705222318.41516.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 22 May 2007 17:03, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 21/05/2007 18:19, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > One more interesting bit about it is the QBUS backplane... the first > > 3 > > slots are quad-width Q/CD slots for the memory and CPU, and the > > rest of the > > slots (quite a few, maybe 6 or 8?) are hex-width slots that are Q/Q > > serpentine on the left 4 fingers, and CD on the right 2 fingers. > > That is odd. Can you see a number on the backplane? Does this > machine have two backplanes, one entirely QBus and one entirely > Unibus? If the whole of the CPU backplane is QBus, I sort of agree > with Johnny that it's not a "real" 11/94, although software probably > can't tell the difference. Well, the system has two backplanes. The system has two labels on the side... the first is "11/84-HX" and the second is "PDP-11/94E" The QBUS backplane has 3 quad-width slots and 6 hex-width slots. It's labelled: 5018955 01 B1 11/84 QBUS BACKPLANE >From the labelling, it's definately a DEC backplane. I can't find any other (ie Hxxxx) labelling on the backplane. The UNIBUS backplane is made by ABLE. > According to my manuals, there are two backplanes for 11/84 > systems. The Users and Maintenance Guide for the 11/84-A (and -P) > (EK-1184A-MG-001, June 1988) shows a 13-slot H9277A, part number > 70-20650-01. The Users and Maintenance Guides for the 11/84-D and -E > (EK-1184D-MG-001, EK-1184E-MG-001, June 1988) show a 9-slot H9277B, > part number 70-17228-01. But in both cases, the slots below slot 4 > are Unibus. Specifically, for the 9-slot backplane, the slots are > listed as Well, the label on the side says it was an 11/84-HX, which isn't any of the models you listed above... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed May 23 01:38:13 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 08:38:13 +0200 Subject: Need help with VTserver In-Reply-To: <95k453dqm0et4q6ol03urkk9u4d2rfj5pr@4ax.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488422@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles > Sent: dinsdag 22 mei 2007 4:17 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Need help with VTserver > > Thanks to a creative suggestion from Ethan, I want to use VTserver > to transfer a bootable OS/8 RL02 image from my laptop (which works > fine under SIMH PDP-8) to an RL02 pack on my 11/23+. Then I will > remove that disk from the drive on the -11, place it in the 8/A's > RL02 drive, and voila - it should boot OS/8! (The disks are > identical format regardless of system, only the programs > themselves differ). I never used VTserver ... and I would never have tought of using VTserver with a *PDP-11* to load *PDP-8* software! Very interesting twist :-) I am not sure if it will work. Let me explain why. Using VTserver to load OS/8 (pdp8 software) into the memory of the PDP-11 will work, I guess. So far, it is just data words that you are transfering. However, when you write the data to disk you use the RT11 file structure. If the RT11 structure is identical to the file structure used by OS/8, I guess it will work, else ... Using VTserver to transfer any "smallish" pdp8 software to a PDP-11 and then *punch* on papertape would work, I guess. > [...snip...] - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed May 23 01:53:35 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 08:53:35 +0200 Subject: Need help with VTserver In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488422@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488423@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gooijen, Henk > Sent: woensdag 23 mei 2007 8:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Need help with VTserver > > > [...snip...] > > Using VTserver to transfer any "smallish" pdp8 software to a > PDP-11 and then *punch* on papertape would work, I guess. Sorry for the addition to my own scribbling. I even start to wonder if punching will work! I guess it will, as long as the data/program is contiguous in memory. Punching on the PDP-11 may know about Origin (not sure), but probably does not have knowledge of Fields. So if the program is larger than 4k (12-bit) words (spans more than 1 field) punching a pdp8 program on the PDP-11 will fail. Also, the PDP-11 has 16-bit words, whereas the pdp8 has 12-bit words ... my doubts are increasing. Would like to hear comments from others here! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Wed May 23 07:34:38 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:34:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! Message-ID: --- Chris M wrote: > take no offense at my previous comment. It's just >that I'd have needed better graphics (and clockspeed, >and...) to brave the wilds of dos incompatibility in >order to commit to such a system back when they were >current. All of the other pseudo compatibles have much >more to offer, and the Rainbow seemed to drift into >obscurity not long after it's inception (there was a >measure of solidarity among those who did buy it >though, which is to be commended). I do consider it an >interesting collectible piece though, and am eager to >add to it functionally. BUT NOT AT THOSE PRICES!!! OI! No offense taken :). The Rainbow does tend to be frustrating due to its "MS-DOS compatability." I think you really have to love it to use it sometimes... If you want to see some more outrageous prices from ebay stores, do a search for "dec rainbow" in Computers & Networking on eBay. The eBay Store prices are comically high. My favorite is $89.93 for a "Fan Assembly." Let me just get out my wallet... -Jeff jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 23 07:55:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 08:55:07 -0400 Subject: Need help with VTserver In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488422@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <95k453dqm0et4q6ol03urkk9u4d2rfj5pr@4ax.com> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488422@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 5/23/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Thanks to a creative suggestion from Ethan, I want to use VTserver > > to transfer a bootable OS/8 RL02 image from my laptop (which works > > fine under SIMH PDP-8) to an RL02 pack on my 11/23+... > > I never used VTserver ... and I would never have tought of using > VTserver with a *PDP-11* to load *PDP-8* software! > Very interesting twist :-) I thought so. ;-) > I am not sure if it will work. Let me explain why. > Using VTserver to load OS/8 (pdp8 software) into the memory of > the PDP-11 will work, I guess. So far, it is just data words > that you are transfering. However, when you write the data to > disk you use the RT11 file structure. What does RT-11 have to do with it? VTserver was written, AFAIK, for loading UNIX images to a PDP-11 pack. As I understand VTserver, it takes a disk image and throws it block-by-block to a target medium. It doesn't matter what the contents are, as long as the blocks are in the right order. For an RK05, the platform matters because PDP-8s use 16-sector packs and PDP-11s use 12-sector packs (same number of bits per track, but sliced and diced differently). With RL01s and RL02s, there is no change in the low-level format from PDP-8 to PDP-11 to VAX use - only the contents of the blocks are different. > If the RT11 structure > is identical to the file structure used by OS/8, I guess it > will work, else ... It is not. With the exception of ODS-1, there is no common thread of DEC filesystems across OSes and platforms that I am aware of. > Using VTserver to transfer any "smallish" pdp8 software to > a PDP-11 and then *punch* on papertape would work, I guess. If one has papertape, which I don't expect Charles does. A 2MB OS/8 device will fill a lot of papertape ;-) I directed him to the list because I am aware of what VTserver does, but I haven't used it myself and thought that there would be some experienced hands to show him the ropes. -ethan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed May 23 02:44:48 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 08:44:48 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Jerome, Sorry I did not pose the question very well. I am trying to get back to the original issue. Which is: 1. I have an 11/94 with a missing cpu board. 2. The correct CPU board as you know is too expensive. 3. Please will somebody give me a low cost alterative in a form I can understad. 4. So all I want is for somebody to say is something like: " Put CPU board type KDJ11-xx (M????-??) in slot 1." " Put a memory card type MSV11-xx (M????-??) in slot2." " Put another (optional) memory card type MSV11-xx (M????-??) in slot3." or what ever order is correct and will run in a PDP-11/94. (xx = please supply correct suffix) (M????-??) please supply correct module number) 5. So far I know a lot about what won't work but not a lot about what will!! Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine Sent: 23 May 2007 03:02 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Well that's seems to define the 11/84. >How does this all apply to the 11/94 >(which is the real problem) > Jerome Fine replies: Since the PDP-11/94 CPU will be the ONLY board you use in those first few slots, if you have a 4 MB version, there can't be any questions left (as far as I understand). So the answer will be found in the early replies: MONEY!! If I remember correctly, the PDP-11/93 CPU is still much more expensive than the PDP-11/83 CPU when combined with PMI memory. Now if you have an RT-11 question, that I can probably answer. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed May 23 08:20:37 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:20:37 +0200 Subject: Need help with VTserver In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488425@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: woensdag 23 mei 2007 14:55 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Need help with VTserver > > [...snip...] > > > I am not sure if it will work. Let me explain why. > > Using VTserver to load OS/8 (pdp8 software) into the memory > > of the PDP-11 will work, I guess. So far, it is just data > > words that you are transfering. However, when you write the > > data to disk you use the RT11 file structure. > > What does RT-11 have to do with it? VTserver was written, > AFAIK, for loading UNIX images to a PDP-11 pack. As I > understand VTserver, it takes a disk image and throws it > block-by-block to a target medium. > It doesn't matter what the contents are, as long as the > blocks are in the right order. Ah! Now I understand ... VTserver is writing to the pack, there is no RT11 running. Correct? As I said, I don't know VTserver, so I made a wrong ASSumption. > [...snip...] > > > Using VTserver to transfer any "smallish" pdp8 software to > > a PDP-11 and then *punch* on papertape would work, I guess. > > If one has papertape, which I don't expect Charles does. A > 2MB OS/8 device will fill a lot of papertape ;-) True ... and confetti to throw during some festivity :-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed May 23 09:01:57 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:01:57 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46544955.1090801@mdrconsult.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > > 5. So far I know a lot about what won't work but not a lot about > what will!! How about I go *look* today? :) I have 2 11/84 systems, different backplane assemblies, one with 2 1MW boards and one with, IIRC, 2 512KW boards. That should give you at least 2 confirmed memory configurations. Doc From rtellason at verizon.net Wed May 23 09:49:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 10:49:22 -0400 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <200705222225.l4MMPupL013753@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200705222225.l4MMPupL013753@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200705231049.22850.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 22 May 2007 18:25, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > approximating accurate. You'd have to inspect the lot yourself in > > person to really know. For instance, this picture is an HP264x > > terminal base: > > > > > > Who knows if the keyboard is also around. > > I also noticed tons of Commodore slabs, but didn't see a single power > brick. I would hope there are shelves of power bricks as well, but who > knows. > > Zane Likely they all died, based on my experience with those things... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From kth at srv.net Wed May 23 10:11:46 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:11:46 -0600 Subject: FOG DOS discs In-Reply-To: <46532ACC.9080405@bitsavers.org> References: <46532ACC.9080405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <465459B2.60704@srv.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > I'm grinding through FOG_DOS today, and will put them > up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG > later today when I've finished reading them. > Just looking at the directory, and FOGMIS.019.imd looks like it might have a problem: 112 bytes instead of ~80K. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 23 10:20:27 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 08:20:27 -0700 Subject: FOG DOS discs Message-ID: <46545BBB.7070303@bitsavers.org> > Just looking at the directory, and FOGMIS.019.imd Thanks for noticing. I missed one that was unreadable. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 23 10:24:23 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:24:23 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46545CA7.7060400@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/05/2007 08:44, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi Jerome, > Sorry I did not pose the question very well. > I am trying to get back to the original issue. > > Which is: > > 1. I have an 11/94 with a missing cpu board. > 2. The correct CPU board as you know is too expensive. > 3. Please will somebody give me a low cost alterative in a form > I can understad. > > 4. So all I want is for somebody to say is something like: > > " Put CPU board type KDJ11-xx (M????-??) in slot 1." Practically speaking, if you can't get a KDJ11-E M8981 PDP-11/94 or /93 board, the next best is a KDJ11-BF M8190-AE which is the 18MHz board with floating point accelerator used in an 11/84 or 11/83. But any KDJ11-B would do, the permutations being 18MHz or 15MHz, and with or without FPA. The plain M8190 (no suffix) KDJ11-BC can't have an FPA added. The other common flavour of KDJ11 is the MM7554 used in the 11/53 but that can't use PMI (which you need). All the above are quad-height boards. You do not want the dual-height KDJ11-A. > " Put a memory card type MSV11-xx (M????-??) in slot2." MSV11-J, M8637, or failing that, MSV11-RA, M7458. Look in http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_memory to see how much memory the various versions have. One or two MSV11-JD would be best. > " Put another (optional) memory card type MSV11-xx (M????-??) > in slot3." See above. And that is the correct order. If you only get one memory board you may also need a Minimum Load Module for slot 3. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 23 12:08:47 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:08:47 +0100 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <20070522192340.O73076@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070522225417.A45EA5896F@mail.wordstock.com> <20070522192340.O73076@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0705231008l196b17aap6010917324aa2e7a@mail.gmail.com> On 23/05/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 22 May 2007, Bryan Pope wrote: > > Ack! When I first read the subject line I read "1000 year > > old computer in Canada, for sale" ! heh.. > > So did I. Absolutely. It put me very much in mind of Pratchett's druidic stone circles: << "Ah, so you're an astronomer?" said Twoflower. "Oh no," said Belafon, as the rock drifted gently around the curve of a mountain. "I'm a computer hardware consultant." "What's a computer hardware?" "Well, this is," said the druid, tapping the rock with a sandalled foot. "Part of one, anyway. It's a replacement. I'm delivering it. They're having trouble with the big circles up on the Vortex Plains. So they say, anyway; I wished I had a bronze tore for every user who didn't read the manual." [...] Belafon: "Almanac?" Rincewind: "It's a book that tells you what day it is. It'd be right up your leyline." Belafon: "Book? Like, with paper?" Rincewind: "Yes." Belafon: "That doesn't sound very reliable to me. How can a book know what day it is? Paper can't count." [...] Rincewind: "Have you ever heard of culture shock?" Twoflower: "What's that?" Rincewind: "It's what happens when people spend five hundred years trying to get a stone circle to work properly and then someone comes up with a little book with a page for every day and little chatty bits saying things like 'Now is a good time to plant broad beans' and 'Early to rise, early to bed, makes a man healthy, wealthy and dead,' and do you know what the most important thing to remember about culture shock is?" Twoflower: "What?" Rincewind: "Don't give it to a man flying a thousand ton rock." [...] "It looks like a lot of rocks," said Twoflower. Belafon hesitated in mid-gesture. "What?" he said. "It's very nice," added the tourist hurriedly. He sought for a word. "Ethnic," he decided. The druid stiffened. "Nice?" he said. "A triumph of the silicon chunk, a miracle of modern masonic technology -- nice?" "Oh, yes," said Twoflower, to whom sarcasm was merely a seven letter word beginning with S. >> -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 23 12:10:57 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:10:57 +0100 Subject: Colorgrafix dual-VGA ISA display adaptor Message-ID: <575131af0705231010y5970abaeuf6bb63e543aa2952@mail.gmail.com> Came across one of these the other day when rummaging through the parts bin. I don't know anything much about it, but it allows, I believe, dual-head displays on an ISA bus machine. Anyone want it? Free for postage from London, UK... -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ygehrich at yahoo.com Wed May 23 12:40:34 2007 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 13:40:34 -0400 Subject: Digest Mode - help please In-Reply-To: <46545CA7.7060400@dunnington.plus.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46545CA7.7060400@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200705231740.l4NHehE9053228@keith.ezwind.net> I have been trying for a few weeks to change to the digest mode. I tried what it said on the FAQ with no success. I tried the couple of suggestions that Jules made also with no success. Is there somebody who can make the change for me? If I cannot get to digest mode I'll have to unsubscribe. The mailbox will fill up too quickly while I am away. Help please From charlesmorris at hughes.net Wed May 23 12:51:06 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:51:06 -0500 Subject: Need help with VTserver In-Reply-To: <200705231704.l4NH3LbX083238@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705231704.l4NH3LbX083238@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4fv853h0hkv9763gd1voufv4ag300ukgsc@4ax.com> On Wed, 23 May 2007 12:04:18 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: >If one has papertape, which I don't expect Charles does. A 2MB OS/8 >device will fill a lot of papertape ;-) Actually I do have an ASR33. Now consider how long 2 Mb would take to punch or read at 10 characters per second :P >I directed him to the list because I am aware of what VTserver does, >but I haven't used it myself and thought that there would be some >experienced hands to show him the ropes. Anyone? I'm having a problem since I think VTserver was originally intended to work with hardware flow control (handshaking) and 11's console port is a simple three-line with no flow control. This is the version I'm using, that runs on Windows machines: http://home.alltel.net/engdahl/vtserver.zip Max SLU speed on the -11 is 19200 so that's what I'm running. I tied pins 1,4,6 together on the DE-9 connector to COM1: (to "fake" a handshake). After starting ODT on the 11/23+, and "VTserver 19200" in the laptop's cmd window, I see more or less continuous strings of "@" until I hit ^B and then ^A to download the bootstrap. The "copy" file then downloads successfully, but when prompted for the input device (RL), when I hit the R key, it echoes continuously at high speed (RRRRRRRRRRRRRR....) until I press the L, then LLLLLLLLLLLL... etc. and when hitting return, of course it's a "bad device" message. Is there anything I can do about this? Is it possible to use XON/XOFF flow control (I don't think the "copy" program does, though?) What did I do wrong? thanks Charles From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 23 13:04:30 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 19:04:30 +0100 Subject: Digest Mode - help please In-Reply-To: <200705231740.l4NHehE9053228@keith.ezwind.net> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46545CA7.7060400@dunnington.plus.com> <200705231740.l4NHehE9053228@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: do you want GMAIL 2.8gig of space? Dave Caroline On 5/23/07, Gene Ehrich wrote: > I have been trying for a few weeks to change to the digest mode. I > tried what it said on the FAQ with no success. > > I tried the couple of suggestions that Jules made also with no success. > > Is there somebody who can make the change for me? If I cannot get to > digest mode I'll have to unsubscribe. The mailbox will fill up too > quickly while I am away. > > Help please > > > From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed May 23 13:12:50 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:12:50 -0400 Subject: Digest Mode - help please In-Reply-To: <200705231740.l4NHehE9053228@keith.ezwind.net> References: <46545CA7.7060400@dunnington.plus.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46545CA7.7060400@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070523140501.05942b10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Gene Ehrich may have mentioned these words: >I have been trying for a few weeks to change to the digest mode. I tried >what it said on the FAQ with no success. > >I tried the couple of suggestions that Jules made also with no success. > >Is there somebody who can make the change for me? If I cannot get to >digest mode I'll have to unsubscribe. The mailbox will fill up too quickly >while I am away. Well, ignore what you see in the message headers - those URLs seem to be "no worky." ;-) Try this: Go here: http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html [[ Unless you're subbed to cctech - then go here: http://www.classiccmp.org/cctech.html ]] and put your email address (should be: y_g_ehrich at ya_hoo.com - remove underscores) where it says: "Subscription Options / Unsubscribe" and click on "unsubscribe or edit options." If you don't remember your password, click on the "Remind" button under "Password Reminder" to have it emailed to you. Once you have (or if you remember) your password, enter it in the password field and click "Log In." You're in and you can change anything you wish WRT your subscription; On the bottom half of the page, there's a bunch of grey boxen where you can choose "mail delivery", "Set Digest Mode","Get MIME or Plain Text"..... You can turn off "Mail Delivery" to stay subbed to the list but receive zero messages, otherwise, set the digest mode to receive one (but possibly more) digests per day. Hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 23 01:42:08 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 00:42:08 -0600 Subject: Need help with VTserver In-Reply-To: <4fv853h0hkv9763gd1voufv4ag300ukgsc@4ax.com> References: <200705231704.l4NH3LbX083238@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4fv853h0hkv9763gd1voufv4ag300ukgsc@4ax.com> Message-ID: <4653E240.8090800@jetnet.ab.ca> Charles wrote: > On Wed, 23 May 2007 12:04:18 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: > >> If one has papertape, which I don't expect Charles does. A 2MB OS/8 >> device will fill a lot of papertape ;-) > > Actually I do have an ASR33. Now consider how long 2 Mb would take > to punch or read at 10 characters per second :P Since somebody was talking stonehenge ... you can use that to help calculate your dumps... When thou moon rises upon the altar twice ... thy downloadith is finished ... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 23 01:42:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 00:42:32 -0600 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <575131af0705231008l196b17aap6010917324aa2e7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070522225417.A45EA5896F@mail.wordstock.com> <20070522192340.O73076@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0705231008l196b17aap6010917324aa2e7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4653E258.1090808@jetnet.ab.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > "Oh no," said Belafon, as the rock drifted gently around the curve of > a mountain. "I'm a computer hardware consultant." > > "What's a computer hardware?" > > "Well, this is," said the druid, tapping the rock with a sandalled > foot. "Part of one, anyway. It's a replacement. I'm delivering it. > They're having trouble with the big circles up on the Vortex Plains. > So they say, anyway; I wished I had a bronze tore for every user who > didn't read the manual." Cute, Cute ... The whole problem is the priests of the stone circles never did learn to write ... No manuals :( From ygehrich at yahoo.com Wed May 23 13:54:44 2007 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:54:44 -0400 Subject: Digest Mode - help please In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46545CA7.7060400@dunnington.plus.com> <200705231740.l4NHehE9053228@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200705231854.l4NIsssi057673@keith.ezwind.net> At 02:04 PM 5/23/2007 Dave Caroline wrote: >do you want GMAIL 2.8gig of space? I have it now thanx Gen >Dave Caroline > >On 5/23/07, Gene Ehrich wrote: >>I have been trying for a few weeks to change to the digest mode. I >>tried what it said on the FAQ with no success. >> >>I tried the couple of suggestions that Jules made also with no success. >> >>Is there somebody who can make the change for me? If I cannot get to >>digest mode I'll have to unsubscribe. The mailbox will fill up too >>quickly while I am away. >> >>Help please >> >> From wacarder at earthlink.net Wed May 23 14:02:00 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:02:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Need help with VTserver Message-ID: <12322282.1179946921185.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > >Anyone? > >I'm having a problem since I think VTserver was originally >intended to work with hardware flow control (handshaking) and 11's >console port is a simple three-line with no flow control. This is >the version I'm using, that runs on Windows machines: >http://home.alltel.net/engdahl/vtserver.zip > I have used VTServer quite a bit to copy RK05, RL01, and RL02 packs from my PDP-11/40 to a Windows-based PC, and vice versa. I have not used it in a couple years, but it is my recollection that when you start the VTServer executable, and assuming that your INI file is set up properly, it opens the COM port, which is connected via (I think) a null modem cable to the console serial line on the PDP-11. It then copies an ULTRIX OS to the PDP-11 and boots Ultrix. It seems like it took a few minutes to copy the Ultrix shell to the PDP-11. Once Ultrix is up and running, you can copy files to and from the PDP-11 disk packs. I have pulled images of many packs to my PC this way, and I have also copied disk images from my PC to an actual PDP-11 RL01, RL02, and RK05. It always worked fine for me except when a pack had bad blocks. I think that my version of VTServer is more current than the one that Johnathan Engdahl has on his site. When I was working with VTServer, I encountered some bugs. Fred Van Kempen fixed these for me and sent me an updated VTServer system. It sounds like you could use a PDP-11 to create RL01 or RL02 packs for use on the PDP-8. However, as someone mentioned in an earlier post, you could not do the same with RK05 packs because the sectoring is different. I think the metal hub that is mounted on the platter is different as well and has a different number of grooves in the hub. If you want my version of VTServer, let me know. I may stick in out on my web site so it can be downloaded. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 23 14:30:38 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:30:38 -0700 Subject: Need help with VTserver In-Reply-To: <4fv853h0hkv9763gd1voufv4ag300ukgsc@4ax.com> References: <200705231704.l4NH3LbX083238@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4fv853h0hkv9763gd1voufv4ag300ukgsc@4ax.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90705231230m699742ddt6ad80be32c41aea3@mail.gmail.com> On 5/23/07, Charles wrote: > > I'm having a problem since I think VTserver was originally > intended to work with hardware flow control (handshaking) and 11's > console port is a simple three-line with no flow control. This is > the version I'm using, that runs on Windows machines: > http://home.alltel.net/engdahl/vtserver.zip > What version of Windows are you using? I have only tried using VTserver a couple of times to connect to an 11/73 and my experience was that I had problems that might have been similar to what you describe when trying to use it on Windows XP, but it seemed to work ok running it on a different system with Windows 98. That didn't surprise me too much at the time as the internal architecture of the com port code is completely different between those versions of Windows, even if the application API is supposed to be the same. From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 23 15:03:14 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:03:14 -0600 Subject: new ebay feedback Message-ID: They now let you grade description, email responsiveness of seller, etc. Hopefully this will improve the feedback score to a more meaningful metric, but it will probably take a while to accumulate. Particularly since the fine-grained feedback is optional. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 23 15:02:56 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:02:56 -0500 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <4653E258.1090808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070522225417.A45EA5896F@mail.wordstock.com> <20070522192340.O73076@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0705231008l196b17aap6010917324aa2e7a@mail.gmail.com> <4653E258.1090808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070523145804.069a39b0@mail> At 01:42 AM 5/23/2007, woodelf wrote: >Liam Proven wrote: > >>"Oh no," said Belafon, as the rock drifted gently around the curve of >>a mountain. "I'm a computer hardware consultant." >>"What's a computer hardware?" > >Cute, Cute ... >The whole problem is the priests of the stone circles never did learn >to write ... No manuals :( Reminds me of a funny pass-along video about "the first help desk call", involving a book: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eIFoz-Tjf8 - John From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 23 15:43:38 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:43:38 -0600 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 23 May 2007 15:02:56 -0500. <6.2.3.4.2.20070523145804.069a39b0@mail> Message-ID: Back to the original topic..... Are there any listers in Seattle that'd be willing to take a drive up to the warehouse and give us a better look-see at the contents? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 23 15:49:12 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 13:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <4653E258.1090808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070522225417.A45EA5896F@mail.wordstock.com> <20070522192340.O73076@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0705231008l196b17aap6010917324aa2e7a@mail.gmail.com> <4653E258.1090808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070523134629.J13289@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 May 2007, woodelf wrote: > Cute, Cute ... > The whole problem is the priests of the stone circles never did learn > to write ... No manuals :( Inadequate, or even total lack of, documentation is a computer tradition since the very beginning. Althought the initial command is reasonably self explanatory, there is no documentation of the possible command line options for "LET There Be ('='?) Light" From Vincenzo.CASIRAGHI at gemalto.com Wed May 23 14:53:50 2007 From: Vincenzo.CASIRAGHI at gemalto.com (CASIRAGHI Vincenzo) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:53:50 +0200 Subject: Olivetti Programma 101 manual online Message-ID: <47040418F87F9245A0C5DDD82598695401C1B889@GMSEXC03.CORP.DS.GEMPLUS.COM> Hello, do you still have the scans of the Olivetti Programma 101 General manual? Could you please send them by email? Thanks & Regards, Vincenzo. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed May 23 15:21:01 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:21:01 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F55@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> So in order of preference: KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) Goes in slot 1 KDJ11-Bx MSV11-JD Slot 2 MSV11-JD Slot 3 Right so that's the answer. Good I shall now look for those. Thanks Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: 23 May 2007 16:24 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus On 23/05/2007 08:44, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi Jerome, > Sorry I did not pose the question very well. > I am trying to get back to the original issue. > > Which is: > > 1. I have an 11/94 with a missing cpu board. > 2. The correct CPU board as you know is too expensive. > 3. Please will somebody give me a low cost alterative in a form I can > understad. > > 4. So all I want is for somebody to say is something like: > > " Put CPU board type KDJ11-xx (M????-??) in slot 1." Practically speaking, if you can't get a KDJ11-E M8981 PDP-11/94 or /93 board, the next best is a KDJ11-BF M8190-AE which is the 18MHz board with floating point accelerator used in an 11/84 or 11/83. But any KDJ11-B would do, the permutations being 18MHz or 15MHz, and with or without FPA. The plain M8190 (no suffix) KDJ11-BC can't have an FPA added. The other common flavour of KDJ11 is the MM7554 used in the 11/53 but that can't use PMI (which you need). All the above are quad-height boards. You do not want the dual-height KDJ11-A. > " Put a memory card type MSV11-xx (M????-??) in slot2." MSV11-J, M8637, or failing that, MSV11-RA, M7458. Look in http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_memory to see how much memory the various versions have. One or two MSV11-JD would be best. > " Put another (optional) memory card type MSV11-xx (M????-??) > in slot3." See above. And that is the correct order. If you only get one memory board you may also need a Minimum Load Module for slot 3. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 23 16:58:21 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:58:21 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F55@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F55@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4654B8FD.60201@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/05/2007 21:21, Rod Smallwood wrote: > So in order of preference: > KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) Goes in slot 1 > KDJ11-Bx > > > MSV11-JD Slot 2 > MSV11-JD Slot 3 Oops! I'm sorry, but -JD was a typo on my part. I meant to write MSV11-JE, M8637-EA, which is the higher-capacity version: a pair would give you the full 4MB that a PDP-11 can address. The -JD is half the size. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 23 17:44:53 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 23 May 2007 15:44:53 -0700 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1179960293.4654c3e5412b8@secure.zipcon.net> and I bet that they are still pretty unwilling ot do anything about retaliatory feedback. I did a 'buy it now' on an auction and the seller (as soon as he shipped) sent me a note saying that as soon as I got the item, leave him feedback and he'd do the same for me... sounds a lot like the PEBCAK's and ID10T's that rely on retaliatory feedback to make themselves look better on ebay. Quoting Richard : > They now let you grade description, email responsiveness of seller, > etc. Hopefully this will improve the feedback score to a more > meaningful metric, but it will probably take a while to accumulate. > Particularly since the fine-grained feedback is optional. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From silent700 at gmail.com Wed May 23 18:08:10 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 19:08:10 -0400 Subject: Powerbook 145 Manual for shipping Message-ID: <51ea77730705231608v211be62dpba765913bb5fe931@mail.gmail.com> Free + Shipping (from 60074) to first taker. "Macintosh User's Guide for Macintosh Powerbook 145" Good shape, small scuff on the cover. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 23 18:34:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1 or 2 Tandy 2000's for trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <278315.45686.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> dude, you've had it for a few months. Already you want to be rid of it!!!??? I'm just trying to get rig of some spare... --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > Similarly, I have a 2000HD machine with VM1 and > color graphics card that I'd > be willing to trade for KIM-1 stuff. This one (just > like my other one) has a > flaky hard drive controller. Drive has lots of > software on it but it only > boots 1/3 of the time. > > On 5/22/07 8:44 PM, "Chris M" > wrote: > > > I'm continually thinning this accumulation of > mine. > > Anyone have anything to trade for a Tandy 2000 > sans > > monitor (but all of mine have the color graphics > option). > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > > ______Need a vacation? Get great deals > > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > http://travel.yahoo.com/ > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 23 17:06:04 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 23:06:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: <263489.23925.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 22, 7 05:01:36 pm Message-ID: > Ok, so in the color graphics category, I assume we > can agree the Rainbow was the least spectacular of the > pseudo compatibles. Pretty much standard amongst that Eh? Out of the HP150, Sirius and Rainbow, the last was the only one to have colour graphics, I think. I usspect one of the best 'IBM Incomatibles' for colour graphics was the Sharp MZ5600 (I think that's the number). It has a couple of ASICs on the videao board and according to the manual it has hardware support for 4 windows. > group was 400 lines of resolution. My whole point was Yes, but most of the 'IBM incompatibles' had 1 bit per pixel, just on/off monochrome grpahics. The 'Bow had a CLUT and up to 4 bits per pixel I think. > I don't know a whole lot about the HP 150's (had > several in my grasp last year...). The Victor/Sirius > had nice floppy storage though. As soon as I figure For a suitable definition of 'nice'. Actually I don't much care for it, as it's can't read or write a 'standard' (FM or MFM) disk. The ability to exchange disks with the rest of the world is something I put very high up my list of desirable features. As yuo doubtless know the data encoder/decoder is a similar circuit to that in, say, a CBM8050. The drive spindle motor is controlled by a microcontroller, etc, on the controller card and the disk spins at different speeds dependin on which cylinder the head is on (the CBM drives kept the spindle speed constant and varied the data clock rate, which is roughly equivalent, both methods maintain a more even linear bit density on different cylinders). > out why my 1 *working* V9000 billows smoke after > running for a couple of minutes, I might be able to > tell you more about it LOL. I have one. I also have a home-made schemaitc of the machine, keyboard and monitor. Let me know which section seems to be emiting magic smoke (PSU, monitor, CPU board, disk controlelr board) and I'll see if I can figure it out. For the record, I have the official techref for the HP150 and 150-II (including schematics) and a homemade schematic for the 'bow. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 23 17:11:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 23:11:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 22, 7 09:02:19 pm Message-ID: > Indeed it isn't, but I had a go at the VT100 Technical Reference Guide > I found a reference to via vt100.net, and more of it makes sense now, Argh! I didn't realise there was a technical manual (in any case I couldn't easily read it...). I just grabbed the printest, fliped over the pages a few times and it became reasonably clear to me. Now quite what that says about me is another matter... > especially the combination clock and bidirectional data line. That's > a lot of work for one wire. The 4-wire LK201 interface is much more > up my alley. Indeed. That one is a fairly normal asynchronous serial interface at a standard baud rate (I forget what). I wonder why the VT100 interface was so odd. Maybe to get it onto a 3 pin connecotr so they could use the 3-pole jack plugs (as we call them over here). But there are 4, 5 and 6 pole versions that were used on UK (GPO) telepohones years ago. Maybe those never crossed the Pond... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 23 17:13:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 23:13:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 22, 7 09:26:16 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/22/07, Bryan Pope wrote: > > Ack! When I first read the subject line I read "1000 year > > old computer in Canada, for sale" ! heh.. > > Heh... I did too, at first glance. I think it was the lack of the 's' > on the end of 'computer' that did it to my parser. > \begin{aol_mode} Me too. \end{aol_mode} I am not sure why, but I read it as '1000+ year old' too. And then wondered what on earth it could be. Alas when I read the message it was nothing all that special :-( -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 23 18:46:23 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oi which Amstrads were available in the US? Message-ID: <301077.73565.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Here goes another guessing game. I'm aware of the PC 1512 (8086), but something tells me this is an earlier unit w/o an integrated monitor and such. Could be a 1512 though cuz the dude has "1000 games". ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 23 18:56:40 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 19:56:40 -0400 Subject: 1 or 2 Tandy 2000's for trade In-Reply-To: <278315.45686.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I bought two of them. One is yellowed and the other is pristine white. Both have flaky hard disk systems but good color cards. I even bought an Atari color monitor but I haven't made up a cable for it to connect to the color card. I would have bought only one if the first one was the white one. I figured I could sell/trade the other. In fact, I'd trade the not-so-good-looking-one for an external HD that I could maybe get to work. I even bought a spare internal MFM drive but I can't get it to work. The controllers stink on ice. Once I reach a frustration level, if it's non-core, it gets jettisoned. On 5/23/07 7:34 PM, "Chris M" wrote: > dude, you've had it for a few months. Already you want > to be rid of it!!!??? I'm just trying to get rig of > some spare... > > --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > >> Similarly, I have a 2000HD machine with VM1 and >> color graphics card that I'd >> be willing to trade for KIM-1 stuff. This one (just >> like my other one) has a >> flaky hard drive controller. Drive has lots of >> software on it but it only >> boots 1/3 of the time. >> >> On 5/22/07 8:44 PM, "Chris M" >> wrote: >> >>> I'm continually thinning this accumulation of >> mine. >>> Anyone have anything to trade for a Tandy 2000 >> sans >>> monitor (but all of mine have the color graphics >> option). >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > ______________________________________________________________________________ >>> ______Need a vacation? Get great deals >>> to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. >>> http://travel.yahoo.com/ >> >> Rich >> >> -- >> Rich Cini >> Collector of Classic Computers >> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator >> http://www.altair32.com >> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp >> >> >> > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > ______ > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 23 19:07:02 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <575131af0705231008l196b17aap6010917324aa2e7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070522225417.A45EA5896F@mail.wordstock.com> <20070522192340.O73076@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0705231008l196b17aap6010917324aa2e7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070523170532.S19428@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 May 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > Absolutely. It put me very much in mind of Pratchett's druidic stone circles: but those could be WAY more than 1000+ old. They weren't very portable From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 23 19:07:08 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 19:07:08 -0500 Subject: Digest Mode - help please In-Reply-To: <200705231854.l4NIsssi057673@keith.ezwind.net> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F4D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46545CA7.7060400@dunnington.plus.com> <200705231740.l4NHehE9053228@keith.ezwind.net> <200705231854.l4NIsssi057673@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <624966d60705231707s6312fce3sb368568b5a74e555@mail.gmail.com> > > Does anyone out there have a G401 11/45 bipolar mem they are willing to > sell? Or maybe repair one? I'm also looking for some RA70 drives. Thanks, Paul From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 23 19:07:39 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <987841.6889.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I usspect one of the best 'IBM Incomatibles' for > colour graphics was the > Sharp MZ5600 (I think that's the number). It has a > couple of ASICs on the > videao board and according to the manual it has > hardware support for 4 > windows. I think maybe you mean the 2800 (80286 + Z80?). The 5600 could only do monochrome. Not that bringing that unit up is fighting fair anyway, t'wadn't abailable on this side of the pond (as far as I know). Apparently much of the wilder stuff (much of which was of Japanese origin) just wasn't made available to eh a *conservative* US market (can anyone think of a different reason?). I drool over some of the stuff that was only available in Japan, or some only in Europe/ Australia. > > group was 400 lines of resolution. My whole point > was > > Yes, but most of the 'IBM incompatibles' had 1 bit > per pixel, just on/off > monochrome grpahics. The 'Bow had a CLUT and up to 4 > bits per pixel I think. Most had color capability on this side of the pond. As you pointed out, only the Sirius/Victor and the HP150x come to mind as being mono only. > > I don't know a whole lot about the HP 150's (had > > several in my grasp last year...). The > Victor/Sirius > > had nice floppy storage though. As soon as I > figure > > For a suitable definition of 'nice'. Actually I > don't much care for it, > as it's can't read or write a 'standard' (FM or MFM) > disk. The ability to > exchange disks with the rest of the world is > something I put very high up > my list of desirable features. Those drives couldn't read a standard MFM encoded disk? I would have sworn there was a utility to accomplish that. > As yuo doubtless know the data encoder/decoder is a > similar circuit to > that in, say, a CBM8050. The drive spindle motor is > controlled by a > microcontroller, etc, on the controller card and the > disk spins at > different speeds dependin on which cylinder the head > is on (the CBM > drives kept the spindle speed constant and varied > the data clock rate, > which is roughly equivalent, both methods maintain a > more even linear bit > density on different cylinders). Like I said, nice LOL LOL > > out why my 1 *working* V9000 billows smoke after > > running for a couple of minutes, I might be able > to > > tell you more about it LOL. > > I have one. I also have a home-made schemaitc of the > machine, keyboard > and monitor. Let me know which section seems to be > emiting magic smoke > (PSU, monitor, CPU board, disk controlelr board) and > I'll see if I can > figure it out. I think once I open it up and turn it on the source of the smoke will become soon evident. I'll keep ya posted though. > For the record, I have the official techref for the > HP150 and 150-II > (including schematics) and a homemade schematic for > the 'bow. Do you manually create these schematics? I had thought of a way of doing it electronically/automatically, but I never worked it out to any degree. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 23 19:10:09 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 19:10:09 -0500 Subject: RA70 and G401 for 11/45 Message-ID: <624966d60705231710k63f3b512xdfa4e96f6451ccd9@mail.gmail.com> > > Does anyone out there have a G401 11/45 bipolar mem they are willing to > > sell? Or maybe repair one? I'm also looking for some RA70 drives. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 23 19:10:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone interested in a Sharp PC-7000 Message-ID: <33845.70625.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> I actually have to locate the thing. In pretty good shape AFAIR. I'll trade it for something kewell, or will entertain offers... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 23 19:14:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1 or 2 Tandy 2000's for trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <932006.65410.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> o man that's cold. Tossing a Tandy T2K. For shame... --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > I bought two of them. One is yellowed and the other > is pristine white. Both > have flaky hard disk systems but good color cards. I > even bought an Atari > color monitor but I haven't made up a cable for it > to connect to the color > card. > > I would have bought only one if the first one was > the white one. I figured I > could sell/trade the other. In fact, I'd trade the > not-so-good-looking-one > for an external HD that I could maybe get to work. I > even bought a spare > internal MFM drive but I can't get it to work. The > controllers stink on ice. > Once I reach a frustration level, if it's non-core, > it gets jettisoned. > > > On 5/23/07 7:34 PM, "Chris M" > wrote: > > > dude, you've had it for a few months. Already you > want > > to be rid of it!!!??? I'm just trying to get rig > of > > some spare... > > > > --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > > > >> Similarly, I have a 2000HD machine with VM1 and > >> color graphics card that I'd > >> be willing to trade for KIM-1 stuff. This one > (just > >> like my other one) has a > >> flaky hard drive controller. Drive has lots of > >> software on it but it only > >> boots 1/3 of the time. > >> > >> On 5/22/07 8:44 PM, "Chris M" > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> I'm continually thinning this accumulation of > >> mine. > >>> Anyone have anything to trade for a Tandy 2000 > >> sans > >>> monitor (but all of mine have the color graphics > >> option). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > >>> ______Need a vacation? Get great deals > >>> to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > >>> http://travel.yahoo.com/ > >> > >> Rich > >> > >> -- > >> Rich Cini > >> Collector of Classic Computers > >> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > >> http://www.altair32.com > >> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > > ______ > > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 23 19:26:43 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:26:43 -0400 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? Message-ID: Not 10 years old, but definitely counts as unusual hardware... I bought a Dolch A320T ruggedized laptop at Dayton from a friend who was in from NJ and selling a few rows away from Dan Cohoe, but part of the reason it was so in expensive was that it didn't have an AC adapter. The laptop came with a hand-fashioned bit of cut PCB with leads, meant to plug into a lab-top bench supply (19V @ ~3A), but I'd like to at least get a "real" plug for it. The problem is that while it looks like an "ordinary" 2.5mm co-ax DC power connector, the center pin is mighty fat. My question is, how does one describe these sorts of connectors in enough detail to get the right part when ordering one? A standard, modern Dell PA-12-type brick pumps out 19.5V @ 3.33A, so that's not so much of an issue, just locating a mating connector is. Thanks for any help determining how to describe this. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed May 23 19:29:52 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oi which Amstrads were available in the US? In-Reply-To: <301077.73565.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <526359.27333.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Chris M wrote: > Here goes another guessing game. I'm aware of the PC > 1512 (8086), but something tells me this is an > earlier > unit w/o an integrated monitor and such. Could be a > 1512 though cuz the dude has "1000 games". The 1512 was pretty popular. They had a weird monitor for that one - the power supply for the computer was in the monitor, and the monitor sits neatly into a cutout in the top of the computer. Underneath the monitor is a holder for some AA batteries for the CMOS clock. All in all it was a neat idea, and worked pretty well. Made for an unexpandable computer though, and hope the monitor never dies... -Ian From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 23 19:53:49 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:53:49 -0400 Subject: 1 or 2 Tandy 2000's for trade In-Reply-To: <932006.65410.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I worked for them for 5-years during that period (1984-89), and I do have a heart. No dumpster, just trade or $$$ for a good home. On 5/23/07 8:14 PM, "Chris M" wrote: > o man that's cold. Tossing a Tandy T2K. For shame... > > --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > >> I bought two of them. One is yellowed and the other >> is pristine white. Both >> have flaky hard disk systems but good color cards. I >> even bought an Atari >> color monitor but I haven't made up a cable for it >> to connect to the color >> card. >> >> I would have bought only one if the first one was >> the white one. I figured I >> could sell/trade the other. In fact, I'd trade the >> not-so-good-looking-one >> for an external HD that I could maybe get to work. I >> even bought a spare >> internal MFM drive but I can't get it to work. The >> controllers stink on ice. >> Once I reach a frustration level, if it's non-core, >> it gets jettisoned. >> >> >> On 5/23/07 7:34 PM, "Chris M" >> wrote: >> >>> dude, you've had it for a few months. Already you >> want >>> to be rid of it!!!??? I'm just trying to get rig >> of >>> some spare... >>> >>> --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: >>> >>>> Similarly, I have a 2000HD machine with VM1 and >>>> color graphics card that I'd >>>> be willing to trade for KIM-1 stuff. This one >> (just >>>> like my other one) has a >>>> flaky hard drive controller. Drive has lots of >>>> software on it but it only >>>> boots 1/3 of the time. >>>> >>>> On 5/22/07 8:44 PM, "Chris M" >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm continually thinning this accumulation of >>>> mine. >>>>> Anyone have anything to trade for a Tandy 2000 >>>> sans >>>>> monitor (but all of mine have the color graphics >>>> option). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > ______________________________________________________________________________ >>>>> ______Need a vacation? Get great deals >>>>> to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. >>>>> http://travel.yahoo.com/ >>>> >>>> Rich >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Rich Cini >>>> Collector of Classic Computers >>>> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator >>>> http://www.altair32.com >>>> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > ______________________________________________________________________________ >>> ______ >>> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go >>> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. >>> http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail >> >> Rich >> >> -- >> Rich Cini >> Collector of Classic Computers >> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator >> http://www.altair32.com >> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp >> >> >> > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > ______Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's > Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 23 19:59:50 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:59:50 -0700 Subject: Docs for your ftp In-Reply-To: <46545BBB.7070303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi Al I picked up the documents I have: Intellec mds-crt keyboard display service manual ( Beehive Medical Electronics ) Service manual CRT Data Dsiplay 5"9"12" ( BallBrothers Research Corp, used in Beehive ) Synchronous Transport Operation and Mainteneance model 1140,1640,1740 and 1840 Digi-Data Corp Microprocessor-Controlled Formatter Opertion Manual Digi-Data Corp. Are these of interest? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 23 20:14:37 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 19:14:37 -0600 Subject: Docs for your ftp In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 23 May 2007 17:59:50 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "dwight elvey" writes: > Intellec mds-crt keyboard display service manual ( Beehive Medical=20 > Electronics ) I'm definately interested in this. > Service manual CRT Data Dsiplay 5"9"12" ( BallBrothers Research Corp, use= > d=20 > in Beehive ) This too. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 23 20:23:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1 or 2 Tandy 2000's for trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <856882.64185.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > I worked for them for 5-years during that period > (1984-89), and I do have a > heart. No dumpster, just trade or $$$ for a good > home. So then why didn't you buy one during their big sell-off? Somehow, I was out of the loop at that particular period, and missed it. BNITB T2K's were going for $200. It was too long before it that the Computer Center salesmen, one of which was in Bayshore right on Sunrise Hwy., stopped calling them "50% compatibles", and reverted to the phrase "10% compatible". Heck they weren't even that! ____________________________________________________________________________________Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 23 20:29:38 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:29:38 -0700 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <200705231049.22850.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: >On Tuesday 22 May 2007 18:25, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > approximating accurate. You'd have to inspect the lot yourself in > > > person to really know. For instance, this picture is an HP264x > > > terminal base: > > > > > > ---snip--- Hi It looks like the kind of things that should be buried under ice for some future generation to dig up. The leather looking box in this one is, I think, one of those recievers that where made to compete with the Zenith Transoceonics. I think I've seen it before but don't recall the manufacture. See: http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/oldpics/pages/9c18re2.htm Dwight _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 23 20:35:28 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:35:28 -0700 Subject: Docs for your ftp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Richard >In article , > "dwight elvey" writes: > > > Intellec mds-crt keyboard display service manual ( Beehive Medical=20 > > Electronics ) > >I'm definately interested in this. > > > Service manual CRT Data Dsiplay 5"9"12" ( BallBrothers Research Corp, >use= > > d=20 > > in Beehive ) > >This too. Hi I didn't mean to post to the group but I guess it is OK. I was hoping that Al would like to scan these. It seems the Beehive stuff is good to be copied. It'll take me a couple weeks to get it to him and then what ever he takes to scan them. I don't have a Beehive but hope to get one someday for my MDS800. I recall that they were the best to type on. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. It?s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07 From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 23 20:37:26 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:37:26 -0400 Subject: 1 or 2 Tandy 2000's for trade In-Reply-To: <856882.64185.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Too funny. Well, at the time I didn't know the value of an old machine. We used them in the stores for the SOS system (after they decommissioned the Model III's) and before they moved to Xenix on Tandy 3000's with multiple serial ports. The machines behind the counter were neutered 1000TL machines. Definitely home grown system like the others. I remember going from store to store in Nassau County helping the more clueless store managers setup and install the system. It literally came out of Fort Worth as a kit of boxes based on the store size. Xenix was delivered on a DC-60 (or DC-100) tape and you booted a floppy and, I would guess, mount and dd the files to the HD. On 5/23/07 9:23 PM, "Chris M" wrote: > > --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > >> I worked for them for 5-years during that period >> (1984-89), and I do have a >> heart. No dumpster, just trade or $$$ for a good >> home. > > So then why didn't you buy one during their big > sell-off? Somehow, I was out of the loop at that > particular period, and missed it. BNITB T2K's were > going for $200. > It was too long before it that the Computer Center > salesmen, one of which was in Bayshore right on > Sunrise Hwy., stopped calling them "50% compatibles", > and reverted to the phrase "10% compatible". Heck they > weren't even that! > > > > ______________________________________________________________________________ > ______Need a vacation? Get great deals > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > http://travel.yahoo.com/ Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From bear at typewritten.org Wed May 23 20:41:57 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:41:57 -0700 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 23, 2007, at 1:43 PM, Richard wrote: > Are there any listers in Seattle that'd be willing to take a drive up > to the warehouse and give us a better look-see at the contents? I've started a dialog with Rawn. We'll see where it goes. Thanks to the OP for the lead. ok bear From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 23 21:33:04 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:33:04 -0600 Subject: Docs for your ftp In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 23 May 2007 18:35:28 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "dwight elvey" writes: > I didn't mean to post to the group but I guess it is OK. I was hoping > that Al would like to scan these. It seems the Beehive stuff is good > to be copied. It'll take me a couple weeks to get it to him and then > what ever he takes to scan them. If you want to lighten the load on Al, I can scan them and contribute them to bitsavers. > I don't have a Beehive but hope to get one someday for my MDS800. Beehives are hard to come by. I've been searching 3+ years and only found one, rebranded as Cromemco which is probably why it survived. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 23 21:34:37 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:34:37 -0600 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 23 May 2007 18:41:57 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "r.stricklin" writes: > On May 23, 2007, at 1:43 PM, Richard wrote: > > > Are there any listers in Seattle that'd be willing to take a drive up > > to the warehouse and give us a better look-see at the contents? > > I've started a dialog with Rawn. We'll see where it goes. Cool! It'll probably take several large Penske trucks or a commercial 18-wheeler to get it all out of there. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed May 23 21:43:57 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:43:57 -0500 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4654FBED.1070200@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Not 10 years old, but definitely counts as unusual hardware... I > bought a Dolch A320T ruggedized laptop at Dayton from a friend who was > in from NJ and selling a few rows away from Dan Cohoe, but part of the > reason it was so in expensive was that it didn't have an AC adapter. > The laptop came with a hand-fashioned bit of cut PCB with leads, meant > to plug into a lab-top bench supply (19V @ ~3A), but I'd like to at > least get a "real" plug for it. The problem is that while it looks > like an "ordinary" 2.5mm co-ax DC power connector, the center pin is > mighty fat. My question is, how does one describe these sorts of > connectors in enough detail to get the right part when ordering one? > A standard, modern Dell PA-12-type brick pumps out 19.5V @ 3.33A, so > that's not so much of an issue, just locating a mating connector is. > > Thanks for any help determining how to describe this. No idea if it's standard outside RatShack, but they use letter designations for the various sizes: http://www.radioshack.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2032284&cp=2032058.2032231 Doc From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 23 22:25:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:25:20 -0600 Subject: govliq: 6 VAX-11/780 power supplies new (Jacksonville, FL) Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From robert at irrelevant.com Thu May 24 01:45:10 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 07:45:10 +0100 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <1179960293.4654c3e5412b8@secure.zipcon.net> References: <1179960293.4654c3e5412b8@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705232345t1bde15e2nbbcab21490457a8d@mail.gmail.com> On 23 May 2007 15:44:53 -0700, Geoff Reed wrote: > and I bet that they are still pretty unwilling ot do anything about retaliatory > feedback. I did a 'buy it now' on an auction and the seller (as soon as he > shipped) sent me a note saying that as soon as I got the item, leave him > feedback and he'd do the same for me... sounds a lot like the PEBCAK's and > ID10T's that rely on retaliatory feedback to make themselves look better on ebay. When I was selling in earnest on eBay, I usually waited for the buyer to leave feedback before doing mine for them - half the time the first indication of a problem is in when they bad mouth you in there! (Some people would rather spout off in public than actually email and give you a chance to sort things out ) At least by waiting for them to post feedback, you know they've received the item and are (usually) happy with it. My item shipped notes were usually a bit less direct than that implied, though. Something along the lines of "it's on it's way, please let us know when you've got it and that everything's ok, or let us know quickly if there is a problem. Once you're happy then feedback is appreciated, and of course we'll leave ours then too." From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Thu May 24 07:16:52 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:16:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! Message-ID: --- ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Yes, but most of the 'IBM incompatibles' had 1 bit per pixel, just on/off >monochrome grpahics. The 'Bow had a CLUT and up to 4 bits per pixel I think. The Rainbow could do 4 colors from a pallette of 4096 in hi-res (800x240) and 16 from a pallette of 4096 in low-res (384x240). The fact that the pallette was not fixed was a major selling point with some because, in low-res, properly dithered photographic pictures would look far better than on the fixed-pallete IBM PC modes (CGA, EGA). What's a CLUT, by the way? Not familiar with that acronym... -Jeff Armstrong jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu May 24 07:27:32 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 08:27:32 -0400 Subject: Univac 1219 sales brochure on vintagecomputer.net Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070524082305.02afb540@mail.degnanco.net> I have made electronic copies of the Univac 1219 Miltary Computer (mid 60's) sales brochure, and posted on my web site vintagecomputer.net. Also included is a short narrative / interview from a system programmer of the era. Not included on my site is what I believe to be the bi-octal program that will type out the 1478 addresses that are loaded by bootstrap, should someone have a working 1219 in their living room and need a copy. -Bill D From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 24 07:32:10 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 05:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: from Jeffrey Armstrong at "May 24, 7 12:16:52 pm" Message-ID: <200705241232.l4OCWAmO014040@floodgap.com> > What's a CLUT, by the way? Not familiar with that acronym... "Colour Look Up Table" -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Make welfare as hard to get as building permits. --------------------------- From emu at e-bbes.com Thu May 24 07:33:18 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 06:33:18 -0600 Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4655860E.8040501@e-bbes.com> Jeffrey Armstrong wrote: > What's a CLUT, by the way? Not familiar with that acronym... Color Look Up Table From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 24 07:35:52 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 05:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70705232345t1bde15e2nbbcab21490457a8d@mail.gmail.com> from Rob at "May 24, 7 07:45:10 am" Message-ID: <200705241235.l4OCZqIG027648@floodgap.com> > At least by waiting for them to > post feedback, you know they've received the item and are (usually) > happy with it. As primarily a buyer, however, this is lousy. This means that if you don't like what you get from a seller, you are virtually guaranteed to get negative feedback from an unscrupulous one if you are forced to act first. As far as I'm concerned, good feedback from a buyer should be awarded when the money is sent promptly, and when I sell items, that is the rule I use regardless of what the buyer says about me afterwards. When sellers won't do this for me, I won't leave positive feedback for them either. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Males are biologically driven to go out and hunt giraffes. -- Newt Gingrich From erik at baigar.de Thu May 24 07:39:29 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:39:29 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: govliq: 3 Rolm UYK-64(V) computers (Norfolk, VA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are two auctions on govliq where text or pictures are swapped. One of them covers 3 Rolm mil spec computers: http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=1230884&convertTo=USD http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=1230885&convertTo=USD From erik at baigar.de Thu May 24 07:46:38 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:46:38 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: govliq: Would anyone near Norfolk "relay" Rolms to me? Message-ID: Hi there! In Norfolk there are quite often Rolms 1666B for auction, which can readily be exported to Germany since they do not require demil. Is there any vintage compunter freak out there who would pick up such a lot and send them to me? A commercial carrier charges wants $750 to $1200 for this task. I am not willing to pay that much money since this is only a hobby for me. Maybe one of you is there by occasion??? Does anyone know a cheaper way for shipping of govliq lots? Best regards, Erik. From mike at ambientdesign.com Thu May 24 01:55:18 2007 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 18:55:18 +1200 Subject: new ebay feedback References: <1179960293.4654c3e5412b8@secure.zipcon.net> <2f806cd70705232345t1bde15e2nbbcab21490457a8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> From: "Rob" > On 23 May 2007 15:44:53 -0700, Geoff Reed wrote: > > and I bet that they are still pretty unwilling ot do anything about retaliatory > > feedback. I did a 'buy it now' on an auction and the seller (as soon as he > > shipped) sent me a note saying that as soon as I got the item, leave him > > feedback and he'd do the same for me... sounds a lot like the PEBCAK's and > > ID10T's that rely on retaliatory feedback to make themselves look better on ebay. > When I was selling in earnest on eBay, I usually waited for the buyer > to leave feedback before doing mine for them - half the time the first > indication of a problem is in when they bad mouth you in there! (Some > people would rather spout off in public than actually email and give > you a chance to sort things out ) At least by waiting for them to > post feedback, you know they've received the item and are (usually) > happy with it. > My item shipped notes were usually a bit less direct than that > implied, though. Something along the lines of "it's on it's way, > please let us know when you've got it and that everything's ok, or let > us know quickly if there is a problem. Once you're happy then > feedback is appreciated, and of course we'll leave ours then too." I do exactly the same thing. As far as I'm concerned, the trade doesn't end when an item leaves my hands; the buyer still has the opportunity to behave like an idiot (or behave very well). I use wording almost exactly like Rob's. I know that once the buyer has placed feedback, the trade's done as far as they're concerned, so I can then place my feedback as the last step in the process; the buyer knows whether the entire trade has gone fine before I do. It seems to work quite well. Speaking of selling on eBay, how many people buy internationally? I expect shipping to kill any trades outside New Zealand, so I don't sell old computer gear on eBay, only on the biggest local auction site. Mike. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu May 24 02:48:20 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 08:48:20 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F5B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Revise to: KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) Goes in slot 1 KDJ11-Bx MSV11-JE M8637-EA Slot 2 Slot 2 MSV11-JE M8637-EA Slot 3 Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: 23 May 2007 22:58 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/84, PMI and Q-bus On 23/05/2007 21:21, Rod Smallwood wrote: > So in order of preference: > KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) Goes in slot 1 > KDJ11-Bx > > > MSV11-JD Slot 2 > MSV11-JD Slot 3 Oops! I'm sorry, but -JD was a typo on my part. I meant to write MSV11-JE, M8637-EA, which is the higher-capacity version: a pair would give you the full 4MB that a PDP-11 can address. The -JD is half the size. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 24 03:52:28 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:52:28 +0100 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1179996748.19871.3.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 20:26 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > like an "ordinary" 2.5mm co-ax DC power connector, the center pin is > mighty fat. My question is, how does one describe these sorts of Maplin do these, but they're just described as "Power Connector". Is it the same size as the ones used on Toshiba laptops? Gordon From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Thu May 24 06:39:50 2007 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:39:50 +0200 Subject: MicroVAX I console port pinout Message-ID: Hi, I'm currently building a MicroVAX I (slowest VAX ever) from parts. I've already got the BA23 box, CPU (2 boards), memory, disk and ethernet controllers. But unfortunately the MicroVAX I console patch panel is missing. Has anyone got a spare one to give away or swap? Or does anyone know the pinout for the console port on the M7135 MicroVAX I DAP module? There are two connectors which look like this: |-----------| | o o o o o | | o o o o | |-----------| The connectors are identical to e.g. those on a DLV11-J serial interface. I guess one is for the console connection and the other one for the baud rate selection. Another interesting question is: What are the two switch blocks on the M7135 DAP module good for? Anyone who knows about that? Any help is very much appreciated! Regards Ulli From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 24 07:00:07 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:00:07 +0100 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1180008007.19871.11.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 23:11 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder why the VT100 interface was so odd. Maybe to get it onto a 3 pin > connecotr so they could use the 3-pole jack plugs (as we call them over Engineer 1: "I bet I can do it with power, ground and one signal wire" Engineer 2: "I bet you can't" Gordon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 24 08:22:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:22:44 -0400 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: <1179996748.19871.3.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <1179996748.19871.3.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: On 5/24/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 20:26 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > like an "ordinary" 2.5mm co-ax DC power connector, the center pin is > > mighty fat. My question is, how does one describe these sorts of > > Maplin do these, but they're just described as "Power Connector". Is it > the same size as the ones used on Toshiba laptops? I think it's larger than that. I have what I thought was a large-bore power connector, but it doesn't come close to fitting. I'm just stumped at how to spec and order something that's a bit off the charts. I saw the Radio Shack catalog entries, and, while the letter scheme was new to me, I could recognize all the parts shown. This center pin is substantially fatter than an ordinary "2.5mm" plug, but the OD looks about the same. -ethan From andy at smokebelch.org Thu May 24 08:28:57 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:28:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: govliq: Would anyone near Norfolk "relay" Rolms to me? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070524142844.O81588@plum.flirble.org> On Thu, 24 May 2007, Erik Baigar wrote: > > Hi there! > > In Norfolk there are quite often Rolms 1666B for > auction, which can readily be exported to Germany > since they do not require demil. Norfolk UK? > Is there any vintage compunter freak out there > who would pick up such a lot and send them to me? > A commercial carrier charges wants $750 to $1200 > for this task. I am not willing to pay that > much money since this is only a hobby for me. > Maybe one of you is there by occasion??? > > Does anyone know a cheaper way for shipping of > govliq lots? > > Best regards, > > Erik. > > From halarewich at gmail.com Thu May 24 08:47:29 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 06:47:29 -0700 Subject: govliq: Would anyone near Norfolk "relay" Rolms to me? In-Reply-To: <20070524142844.O81588@plum.flirble.org> References: <20070524142844.O81588@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <6d6501090705240647t3afa3ef8q4ae6e8a73884d8cf@mail.gmail.com> or Norfolk USA On 5/24/07, Andrew Back wrote: > > On Thu, 24 May 2007, Erik Baigar wrote: > > > > > Hi there! > > > > In Norfolk there are quite often Rolms 1666B for > > auction, which can readily be exported to Germany > > since they do not require demil. > > Norfolk UK? > > > Is there any vintage compunter freak out there > > who would pick up such a lot and send them to me? > > A commercial carrier charges wants $750 to $1200 > > for this task. I am not willing to pay that > > much money since this is only a hobby for me. > > Maybe one of you is there by occasion??? > > > > Does anyone know a cheaper way for shipping of > > govliq lots? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Erik. > > > > > From Eberhard.Hewicker at serco.de Thu May 24 07:59:12 2007 From: Eberhard.Hewicker at serco.de (Eberhard.Hewicker at serco.de) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:59:12 +0200 Subject: TIL308 Message-ID: do you by chance have some TIL308 left? I would need about 10 ea. 306 or 311 would also do fine. Or do you know a replacemant for those TI-Displays? Thank you mit freundlichem Gru? Eberhard Hewicker Germany dk3he at web.de __________________________________________________________________________________________________ From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 24 08:45:17 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:45:17 +0100 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: References: <1179996748.19871.3.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <1180014317.19871.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 09:22 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/24/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 20:26 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > like an "ordinary" 2.5mm co-ax DC power connector, the center pin is > > > mighty fat. My question is, how does one describe these sorts of > > > > Maplin do these, but they're just described as "Power Connector". Is it > > the same size as the ones used on Toshiba laptops? > > I think it's larger than that. I have what I thought was a large-bore > power connector, but it doesn't come close to fitting. I'm just The centre pin on Toshiba laptop power connectors is about 3mm, way bigger than the normal "fat" power connectors. The outside is the same. Gordon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 24 09:17:20 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:17:20 -0400 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: <1180014317.19871.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <1179996748.19871.3.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <1180014317.19871.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: On 5/24/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 09:22 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 5/24/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Maplin do these, but they're just described as "Power Connector". Is it > > > the same size as the ones used on Toshiba laptops? > > > > I think it's larger than that. I have what I thought was a large-bore > > power connector, but it doesn't come close to fitting. I'm just > > The centre pin on Toshiba laptop power connectors is about 3mm, way > bigger than the normal "fat" power connectors. The outside is the same. Hmm... I could believe it's a full 3mm. I'll do some digging on that. If Toshiba's have a 19V 3A brick, that'd probably do the trick. Targus sells various laptop adapter kits, but they cost more than the laptop (as do just Dolch drive bays, but fortunately, mine has one). Thanks, -ethan From erik at baigar.de Thu May 24 09:28:20 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 16:28:20 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: govliq: Would anyone near Norfolk "relay" Rolms to me? In-Reply-To: <20070524142844.O81588@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: > > auction, which can readily be exported to Germany > > since they do not require demil. > Norfolk UK? Norfolk USA, Virginia: 7829 Seventh St., SDA 211 Norfolk, VA 23511 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 24 09:34:21 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 07:34:21 -0700 Subject: Docs for your ftp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Richard > >In article , > "dwight elvey" writes: > > > I didn't mean to post to the group but I guess it is OK. I was hoping > > that Al would like to scan these. It seems the Beehive stuff is good > > to be copied. It'll take me a couple weeks to get it to him and then > > what ever he takes to scan them. > >If you want to lighten the load on Al, I can scan them and contribute >them to bitsavers. > ---snip--- Hi Al is local and I can bring them to him by hand. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. It?s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07 From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 24 10:04:54 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:04:54 -0400 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <200705241235.l4OCZqIG027648@floodgap.com> References: <200705241235.l4OCZqIG027648@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200705241104.54399.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 24 May 2007 08:35, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > At least by waiting for them to > > post feedback, you know they've received the item and are (usually) > > happy with it. > > As primarily a buyer, however, this is lousy. This means that if you > don't like what you get from a seller, you are virtually guaranteed to > get negative feedback from an unscrupulous one if you are forced to > act first. So, just don't bother leaving feedback, if you don't want to risk getting negative feedback. As a seller, I think that it's completely illogical to leave feedback for someone before the transaction is over. It's generally not safe to assume that the party on the buying (or selling end for that matter[0]) is completely reasonable. This is ebay, not civilized society. :) > As far as I'm concerned, good feedback from a buyer should be awarded > when the money is sent promptly, and when I sell items, that is the > rule I use regardless of what the buyer says about me afterwards. When > sellers won't do this for me, I won't leave positive feedback for them > either. But, what if the buyer has unreasonable demands, such as complaining about something silly[1] like using the original packaging to ship you a computer, which they didn't express until after you ship them the item. [0] I normally wouldn't single out someone, but beware of the ebay seller "classic.computers". I've been waiting almost 4 weeks for him to ship me something[2], because he refused to let me come and pick it up. He's being completely unresponsive, and taking well over a week to respond to each message I send him. I'm finally to the point of threatening him with negative feedback if he won't ship soon (something I've never had to do before to a legitimate seller). [1] There was a thread a couple months ago on here about a seller doing this. From my perspective, a functional device is much more important than worrying about the "damage" from putting a label on an old piece of cardboard. [2] http://search.ebay.com/280104933089 Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 24 10:46:01 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:46:01 -0400 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200705241146.02355.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 23 May 2007 20:26, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The problem is that while it looks like an "ordinary" 2.5mm co-ax DC power > connector, the center pin is mighty fat. My question is, how does one > describe these sorts of connectors in enough detail to get the right part > when ordering one? Wikipedia seems to have a pretty good list of these connectors... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From shumaker at att.net Thu May 24 11:01:00 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:01:00 -0700 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: References: <1179996748.19871.3.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <1180014317.19871.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <200705241601.l4OG1Bc3016321@keith.ezwind.net> Have you looked at something like Digikey.com? They list a bunch of pigtailed power connectors with ID and ODs specified. largest seems to be 2.5mm ID and 5.5mm OD. Page 409 of the online Digikey catalog. s shumaker you wrote: >On 5/24/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 09:22 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > On 5/24/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> > > Maplin do these, but they're just described as "Power Connector". Is it >> > > the same size as the ones used on Toshiba laptops? >> > >> > I think it's larger than that. I have what I thought was a large-bore >> > power connector, but it doesn't come close to fitting. I'm just >> >>The centre pin on Toshiba laptop power connectors is about 3mm, way >>bigger than the normal "fat" power connectors. The outside is the same. > >Hmm... I could believe it's a full 3mm. I'll do some digging on that. >If Toshiba's have a 19V 3A brick, that'd probably do the trick. >Targus sells various laptop adapter kits, but they cost more than the >laptop (as do just Dolch drive bays, but fortunately, mine has one). > >Thanks, > >-ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 24 11:19:17 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:19:17 -0400 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: <200705241601.l4OG1Bc3016321@keith.ezwind.net> References: <1179996748.19871.3.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <1180014317.19871.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <200705241601.l4OG1Bc3016321@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 5/24/07, Steve Shumaker wrote: > Have you looked at something like Digikey.com? > > They list a bunch of pigtailed power connectors with ID and ODs > specified. largest seems to be 2.5mm ID and 5.5mm OD. Page 409 of > the online Digikey catalog. That is assuredly too small. I have plenty of 2.5mm ID plugs. This is much larger. Thanks, -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 23 23:53:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:53:11 -0600 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> References: <1179960293.4654c3e5412b8@secure.zipcon.net> <2f806cd70705232345t1bde15e2nbbcab21490457a8d@mail.gmail.com> <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> Message-ID: <46551A37.5060101@jetnet.ab.ca> Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Speaking of selling on eBay, how many people buy internationally? I expect > shipping to kill any trades outside New Zealand, so I don't sell old > computer gear on eBay, only on the biggest local auction site. Nah... I just have to wait 6 months. :) It is $%#! people in the US that say pick up only ... no time to ship that get me frustrated. > Mike. PS. Oddly Australia is hard to buy things from Canada ... It is getting the money to them. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 24 11:55:41 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:55:41 -0600 Subject: govliq: Would anyone near Norfolk "relay" Rolms to me? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 24 May 2007 14:46:38 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Erik Baigar writes: > Is there any vintage compunter freak out there > who would pick up such a lot and send them to me? > A commercial carrier charges wants $750 to $1200 > for this task. I think the reason for the hefty fee is the international shipping. Did you check with Craters & Freighters? They've done high quality work and given me a reasonable price in the past. However, in getting a quote for items shipped to me from the UK I couldn't find anyone that was cheaper than UPS. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From shumaker at att.net Thu May 24 12:12:01 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:12:01 -0700 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: References: <1179996748.19871.3.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <1180014317.19871.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <200705241601.l4OG1Bc3016321@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200705241712.l4OHC1ij020470@keith.ezwind.net> ahh sorry... definitely drawing a blank at 4 sources for anything over 2.5. s shumaker At 09:19 AM 5/24/2007, you wrote: >On 5/24/07, Steve Shumaker wrote: >>Have you looked at something like Digikey.com? >> >>They list a bunch of pigtailed power connectors with ID and ODs >>specified. largest seems to be 2.5mm ID and 5.5mm OD. Page 409 of >>the online Digikey catalog. > >That is assuredly too small. I have plenty of 2.5mm ID plugs. This >is much larger. > >Thanks, > >-ethan From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu May 24 12:24:04 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 24 May 2007 10:24:04 -0700 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> References: <1179960293.4654c3e5412b8@secure.zipcon.net> <2f806cd70705232345t1bde15e2nbbcab21490457a8d@mail.gmail.com> <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> Message-ID: <1180027444.4655ca34990ec@secure.zipcon.net> I don't mean to insult anyone here by my views, I'm certain that those of y'all here that have piped up that when you sell on ebay you don't leave feedback until the buyer does do not do it so you can leave retaliatory feedback. unfortunately there are a lot of sellers on ebay that do refuse to leave feedback until the buyer leaves feedback just for the sole purpose of leaving retaliatory feedback or having the threat of that hanging over the buyers head, and Ebay is notorious for doing nothing about retaliatory feedback in the past, even though it is against their rules. I went back and read the note from the seller and i forgot a few words. what the seller said was "as soon as you get the item, leave me positive feedback I'll do the same for you" so the way i read it the seller wants me to leave positive feedback as soon as i have the item in my hot (not so) little hands, no matter if it is as advertised or not. before I leave negative feedback for anyone I -try- to work it out with them via emails or on the phone. I guess what gets to me is the implied threat that even though I paid promptly that if I end up giving neutral of negative feedback that they are going to do the same, just because i gave them neutral or negative feedback. about a year ago there was an entire thread whacked off the ebay messageboards that started when someone complained that they were getting negative feedback from sellers for shipping damage to items (that the guy admitted weren't packed very well) and his buyers were giving him neutral or negative feedback for the bad way that the item was packed and he asked how he could stop them. Not one person in the thread told him perhaps he should pack the items he was shipping properly, there were over 300 replies telling him to withhold feedback until the buyer posted and by doing that most buyers are going to give positive feedback for fear that he will besmirch the buyers good feedback scores with negatives. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 24 12:18:11 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:18:11 -0400 Subject: govliq: Would anyone near Norfolk "relay" Rolms to me? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I think the reason for the hefty fee is the international shipping. AN/UYK-64s are freaking heavy for an ATR package - so yes, shipping will be quite a lot. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 24 12:20:51 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <200705241104.54399.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "May 24, 7 11:04:54 am" Message-ID: <200705241720.l4OHKpxG028442@floodgap.com> > So, just don't bother leaving feedback, if you don't want to risk getting > negative feedback. And this is why the feedback system is broken :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The best of all: God is with us. -- John Wesley ---------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 24 12:47:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:47:21 -0700 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <1180027444.4655ca34990ec@secure.zipcon.net> References: , <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke>, <1180027444.4655ca34990ec@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <46556D39.17656.27557F83@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 May 2007 at 10:24, Geoff Reed wrote: > I guess what gets to me is the implied threat that even though I paid promptly > that if I end up giving neutral of negative feedback that they are going to do > the same, just because i gave them neutral or negative feedback. I had a similar experience with a non-computer item. What was shipped to me did not match the description. When I contacted the seller, the response came back that since he was one of those "drop your junk off at our storefront and we'll sell it on eBay for you" operations, he had no particular knowledge of the item and posted only what was told to him. No, he wouldn't take it back, or even offer settlement terms--nor would he divulge the name of the original owner who had engaged his services. Negative feedback would be responded to in kind. When I brought the case up on the eBay community forum, I was immediately blasted for hassling the seller and it was my own fault for being stupid. It was then I discovered that the eBay community forums are populated by sellers who see it as their own private turf used to keep buyers in their place. I was even mocked for having only a single eBay ID! Apparently, many sellers have several--when one ID gets polluted enough, the rule seems to be that one discards it like a pair of soiled gloves and moves on to a new one. I've said it before--eBay has all of the legitimacy and integrity of an open-air bazaar in Marrakesh--the big difference being that in Morrocco, you actually get to see and handle the real merchandise, rather than simply being shown a photo of it. That being said, I've had more good experiences on eBay than bad-- just as it's possible to find good deals in a flea market. I doubt that revamping the feedback scheme will have a material effect on sellers' or buyers' ethics. Cheers, Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu May 24 13:03:27 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 24 May 2007 11:03:27 -0700 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <200705241104.54399.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200705241235.l4OCZqIG027648@floodgap.com> <200705241104.54399.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1180029807.4655d36f412ac@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Patrick Finnegan : > So, just don't bother leaving feedback, if you don't want to risk > getting > negative feedback. > > As a seller, I think that it's completely illogical to leave feedback > for > someone before the transaction is over. It's generally not safe to > assume that the party on the buying (or selling end for that matter[0]) > > is completely reasonable. This is ebay, not civilized society. :) > > But, what if the buyer has unreasonable demands, such as complaining > about something silly[1] like using the original packaging to ship you a > > computer, which they didn't express until after you ship them the item. > > [1] There was a thread a couple months ago on here about a seller doing > > this. From my perspective, a functional device is much more important > than worrying about the "damage" from putting a label on an old piece of > > cardboard. If the system worked properly you should not have to worry about retailiatory feedback, if, as a buyer I have done my part and paid promptly, then I should get feedback form the seller that I paid promptly. IF i leave negative feedback because the seller misrepresented the item, packed it improperly, or just generally jacked me around then the seller should not retaliate with negative feedback just because they got caught, and that is just what some sellers do, they get caught in any number of no-no's and then take it out on the person who caught them. and as to [1] I can see when someone is advertising "look, classic computer system, complete with original packaging!!" that in that case the packaging needs to be preserved as WELL as the equipment. by labeling directly onto the packaging it is lowering the value of the package as a whole. it has always been that a collectable item is worth more if it has it's original packaging and that packaging is in good condition, so if someone is advertising the packaging being there as part of the selling point of the auction then they should take care not to damage the packaging any further than it already is. Personally I do not buy old systems for the packaging or collecting as an investment generally, so I usually could care less about the packaging, although there are occasional exceptions to that rule. so, if one is advertising the packaging as part of the whole enchilada, then you should take precautions to preserve it, like bubble-wrapping the original packaging (with the equipment inside) and placing that into a slightly larger package for shipping. of course that is my opinion, your mileage may vary, things in the mirror may be closer than they appear..... From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 24 13:02:19 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:02:19 -0400 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <1180027444.4655ca34990ec@secure.zipcon.net> References: <1179960293.4654c3e5412b8@secure.zipcon.net> <2f806cd70705232345t1bde15e2nbbcab21490457a8d@mail.gmail.com> <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> <1180027444.4655ca34990ec@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: I should point out that when it comes to negative feedback - a red mark against a buyer is essentially worthless. It does a buyer little to no harm. It is very difficult for a seller to block a bidder with excessive negative feedback, especially with bids coming in during the last moments of the auctions. When the auctions end, a seller pretty much has to honor the win, even if the seller has negative feedback. About the only thing the sellers can do realistically is to cut the bad buyers no slack in the payment process, then block the bidder from bidder from future sales. A red red mark against a seller is entirely a different matter. Every one of them does damage, as the bidders sometimes (and are encouraged to) look to check out sellers reputations. Too many red marks and bidders get turned away - and the loss of those bids damage the bottom line. As some on this and other lists have stated, some bidders will not bid if a seller has a feedback percentile that is not very close to 100 percent. As a professional seller, I can tell you that it is near impossible to keep a feedback score above 99.5 with serious amounts of goods being sold. There are a lot of asshole buyers out there that are almost impossible to please. There are others that blame sellers for problems that were clearly the shippers' fault. And there are also more than a few buyers who are plain old scammers themselves. Unless you have done serious selling on Ebay (I have been both a serious buyer and a serious seller) - please do not comment on how we sellers do our business. There are reasons for the things we do - reasons that even profession buyers just will not see. The feedback process is one of them. Yes, we sellers are glad to take suggestions from buyers - we want to improve our business, after all - but the blanket gripes and badmouthing we sellers receive that occurs here and elsewhere is just out of line and unjustified. -- Will From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu May 24 13:20:39 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:20:39 -0400 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: References: <1179960293.4654c3e5412b8@secure.zipcon.net> <2f806cd70705232345t1bde15e2nbbcab21490457a8d@mail.gmail.com> <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> <1180027444.4655ca34990ec@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: I separate my buyer's account from my seller's account. I am able to leave feedback to sellers without worrying about my seller's account. vax, 9000 From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 24 13:29:07 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "May 24, 7 02:02:19 pm" Message-ID: <200705241829.l4OIT7Bv015516@floodgap.com> > I should point out that when it comes to negative feedback - a red > mark against a buyer is essentially worthless. But for those of us who do both ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Quote me as saying I was misquoted. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------ From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu May 24 13:35:23 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:35:23 -0400 Subject: new ebay feedback References: <1179960293.4654c3e5412b8@secure.zipcon.net> <2f806cd70705232345t1bde15e2nbbcab21490457a8d@mail.gmail.com> <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> <1180027444.4655ca34990ec@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <005d01c79e32$4a6dc610$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 2:02 PM Subject: Re: new ebay feedback > Unless you have done serious selling on Ebay (I have been both a > serious buyer and a serious seller) - please do not comment on how we > sellers do our business. There are reasons for the things we do - > reasons that even profession buyers just will not see. The feedback > process is one of them. Yes, we sellers are glad to take suggestions > from buyers - we want to improve our business, after all - but the > blanket gripes and badmouthing we sellers receive that occurs here and > elsewhere is just out of line and unjustified. > > -- > Will Sure, and unless you have done serious used car selling please don't badmouth used car salesmen either (insert anything that has a bad reputation into the sentence). ;) From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu May 24 13:57:47 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 24 May 2007 11:57:47 -0700 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <200705241829.l4OIT7Bv015516@floodgap.com> References: <200705241829.l4OIT7Bv015516@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1180033067.4655e02b85873@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Cameron Kaiser : > > I should point out that when it comes to negative feedback - a red > > mark against a buyer is essentially worthless. > > But for those of us who do both ... > I agree with you there, because if you do both on one account (and at one point, I do not know if it is the same currently, you couldn't have more than one account, unless you violated ebay's TOS) if someone hits you with negative feedback as a buyer and you sell on that account, generally people won't bother to look and see if your 97% feedback is because of buying or selling. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 24 14:02:10 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:02:10 -0400 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <46556D39.17656.27557F83@cclist.sydex.com> References: <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> <1180027444.4655ca34990ec@secure.zipcon.net> <46556D39.17656.27557F83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I was even mocked for having only a single eBay ID! Apparently, many > sellers have several--when one ID gets polluted enough, the rule > seems to be that one discards it like a pair of soiled gloves and > moves on to a new one. If many is less than one percent* in your book, then OK, that is true. But... "Many" professional ebay sellers will have two accounts for tax reasons. For example, lets say that Bob is an antiques dealer, a one man show, like most are. He sells on Ebay, and follows all the rules for taxation (he would be a fool not to). His father dies, and he inherits the estate, so all his father's stuff is now his. He wants to sell off some of this stuff. If he uses his regular Ebay account to sell, he will have a lot of work figuring out what is taxable, both as income and sales tax. The stuff he inherits from his father, for the most part, would (mostly) not be subject to sales or income tax, unlike the goods he sells on Ebay for his business. The easy solution? Create another account for the sale of personal property. If Bob were to go thru an audit, the IRS would have a much easier time getting everything straight, and let Bob go. *There is a survey floating around concerning this. No, I am not going to look for it - I have better things to do. Please use care with that "many" word. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 24 14:23:28 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: <4655860E.8040501@e-bbes.com> References: <4655860E.8040501@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20070524122229.W58050@shell.lmi.net> > > What's a CLUT, by the way? Not familiar with that acronym... On Thu, 24 May 2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > "Colour Look Up Table" That is only on the models for export to UK On Thu, 24 May 2007, e.stiebler wrote: > Color Look Up Table From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu May 24 14:47:13 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:47:13 -0400 Subject: new ebay feedback && Oh what a deal In-Reply-To: References: <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> <1180027444.4655ca34990ec@secure.zipcon.net> <46556D39.17656.27557F83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I remember when we use to talk about Vintage computing on this list. Why do we have to keep revisiting eBay? On a related topic, does anyone know of a good OS for a 6800 based computer? I have a motorola mono board set that needs an OS. I would need source (naturally). Any leads would be a help. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 24 15:14:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:14:52 -0700 Subject: new ebay feedback && Oh what a deal In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <46558FCC.11631.27DC9025@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 May 2007 at 15:47, Robert Borsuk wrote: > I remember when we use to talk about Vintage computing on this list. > Why do we have to keep revisiting eBay? Agreed. > On a related topic, does anyone know of a good OS for a 6800 based > computer? > I have a motorola mono board set that needs an OS. I would need > source (naturally). > Any leads would be a help. Don't know too much abou the availability of source, but Flex was very popular back in the day. There's a URL for the Flex user group (FUG): http://www.evenson-consulting.com/flexusergroup/fug1.htm Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 24 03:20:18 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 02:20:18 -0600 Subject: new ebay feedback && Oh what a deal In-Reply-To: References: <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> <1180027444.4655ca34990ec@secure.zipcon.net> <46556D39.17656.27557F83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46554AC2.30103@jetnet.ab.ca> Robert Borsuk wrote: > I remember when we use to talk about Vintage computing on this list. > Why do we have to keep revisiting eBay? L@@K RARE OS. I really want to leave negative feedback to the way eBay works. > On a related topic, does anyone know of a good OS for a 6800 based > computer? > I have a motorola mono board set that needs an OS. I would need source > (naturally). > Any leads would be a help. Try FLEX or a clone if you have floppy disk. http://www.flexusergroup.com/flexusergroup/default.htm 6809 dos ... if you can find the source for the source you may have 6800 stuff. http://www.users.cloud9.net/~stark/sources.html > > Rob > > Rob Borsuk > email: rborsuk at colourfull.com > Colourfull Creations > Web: http://www.colourfull.com > > . > From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 24 15:29:48 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:29:48 -0600 Subject: new ebay feedback && Oh what a deal In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 24 May 2007 15:47:13 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Robert Borsuk writes: > Why do we have to keep revisiting eBay? I'm sorry I brought it up. I thought people would like to know that they can give more detailed feedback now. Had I known that people would just use it as an excuse to rehash all their opinions about the way people (mis)use feedback, I wouldn't have mentioned it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 13:07:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 19:07:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oi which Amstrads were available in the US? In-Reply-To: <526359.27333.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at May 23, 7 05:29:52 pm Message-ID: > The 1512 was pretty popular. They had a weird monitor > for that one - the power supply for the computer was > in the monitor, and the monitor sits neatly into a > cutout in the top of the computer. Underneath the > monitor is a holder for some AA batteries for the CMOS Typical Amstrad cost-cutting was that there was no cover on that battery holder other than the base of the monitor. > clock. All in all it was a neat idea, and worked > pretty well. Made for an unexpandable computer though, Why? There were 3 normal ISA slots at the back IIRC. > and hope the monitor never dies... Amstrad, unlike many manufacturers, sold service manuals with full schematics and spare parts to component level for these machines. The PC1512 (or PC1640) manaul is not hard to find I think. Whether or not you can still get spares like the flyback transfroemr is another matter, but I did get one for one of their early PGA monitors (used on a PC2086) some years back without problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 13:28:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 19:28:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: <4654FBED.1070200@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at May 23, 7 09:43:57 pm Message-ID: > > that's not so much of an issue, just locating a mating connector is. > > > > Thanks for any help determining how to describe this. The 3 dimensions that are normally quoted are the diameter of the centre pin on the chassis connector, the overall diameter of the cable-mounted connector, and tength of the barrel on the latter. Normally the first is sufficient to identify the conenctor > > No idea if it's standard outside RatShack, but they use letter > designations for the various sizes: I dnon't think it's a true standard, but Maplin (UK hobbyist 'electornic' shop) have a similar code. They sell little adapters with a different type of coaxial poeer plug on one side and 2 pins on the other. These plug into the cable from a wall-wart type of adapter (they fit both ways round so you cna get eiother polarity on the coaxial plug). They also sell a cable with the necessary 2-pin socekt on one end and IIRC nothing on the other end. I bought just about all the adapters, and one of the cables. I fitted the latter with a couple of 4mm plugs to go into my bench power supply. That little kit has proved very useful for powering up all sorts of things. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 13:31:35 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 19:31:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <002801c79dd0$7d89a6c0$3c00a8c0@fluke> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at May 24, 7 06:55:18 pm Message-ID: > Speaking of selling on eBay, how many people buy internationally? I expect > shipping to kill any trades outside New Zealand, so I don't sell old > computer gear on eBay, only on the biggest local auction site. I buy internationally all the time, since most of the things I want are not available in England. I'm a little disapointed when I see the machine I've been looking for for years in another country, knowing that no way could I afford the shipping on it. But I am rather more annoyed when sellers won't ship internationally things that easily could be shipped -- handheld calculators, PCBs, etc. The shipping on those sorts of things is easily affordable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 15:54:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 21:54:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: from "Jeffrey Armstrong" at May 24, 7 12:16:52 pm Message-ID: > > Yes, but most of the 'IBM incompatibles' had 1 bit per pixel, just > on/off > >monochrome grpahics. The 'Bow had a CLUT and up to 4 bits per pixel I > think. > > The Rainbow could do 4 colors from a pallette of 4096 in hi-res (800x240) > and 16 from a pallette of 4096 in low-res (384x240). The fact that the In other words not too bad for the time. > pallette was not fixed was a major selling point with some because, in > low-res, properly dithered photographic pictures would look far better > than on the fixed-pallete IBM PC modes (CGA, EGA). > > What's a CLUT, by the way? Not familiar with that acronym... Colour Look Up Table. Another name for a palette. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 16:07:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 22:07:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <200705241104.54399.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at May 24, 7 11:04:54 am Message-ID: > > As primarily a buyer, however, this is lousy. This means that if you > > don't like what you get from a seller, you are virtually guaranteed to > > get negative feedback from an unscrupulous one if you are forced to > > act first. > > So, just don't bother leaving feedback, if you don't want to risk getting > negative feedback. The problem then is that you (the buyer) don't get feedback either. > > As a seller, I think that it's completely illogical to leave feedback for > someone before the transaction is over. It's generally not safe to > assume that the party on the buying (or selling end for that matter[0]) > is completely reasonable. This is ebay, not civilized society. :) I have suggested before that E-bay should keep feedback (from either party) secret until both parties have submitted their feedback, and only then reveal it. It would help to stop the 'you left me a -ve, so I'm leaving you one' type of activity. > > [0] I normally wouldn't single out someone, but beware of the ebay > seller "classic.computers". I've been waiting almost 4 weeks for him to > ship me something[2], because he refused to let me come and pick it up. There are people who would simply turn up at his home along with a couple of large freidns and 'persuade' him to hand over the property that they've paid for :-) > [1] There was a thread a couple months ago on here about a seller doing > this. From my perspective, a functional device is much more important > than worrying about the "damage" from putting a label on an old piece of > cardboard. There are people who like to have the origianl boxes (I am not one of them, but...). IMHO, if the item was advertised as 'in origianl box' or similar, then that box shouldn't be used as the outer shipping container, and shouldn't have more labels stuck to it. If no mention was made of the box, then the buyer has no reason to moan if said box was used as the shiping container, the box was not claimed to be included so you have no reason to expect to get an undamaged on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 15:53:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 21:53:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, In-Reply-To: <1180008007.19871.11.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 24, 7 01:00:07 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 23:11 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I wonder why the VT100 interface was so odd. Maybe to get it onto a 3 pin > > connecotr so they could use the 3-pole jack plugs (as we call them over > > Engineer 1: "I bet I can do it with power, ground and one signal wire" > Engineer 2: "I bet you can't" I'm suprised sobody at that point didn't suggest modulating the power line and getting it down to 2 wires ;-) I was once told a probably apocryphal story that the 11/730 came about because an engineer bet he could fit a VAX CPU onto 3 hex-height cards using only standard chips :-) More seriosuly, I was once sort-of involved in a piece of digital design, and there was some combinatorial block that took in 3 bus lines and outputted an enable signal to a buffer chip. Without even thinking about the problem, I said 'I can do that in one chip'. One of the others said 'OK, a PROM or a PAL I suppose'. I said 'No, A normal, non-programmed chip from the TTL data bool'. OK, which chip was I thinking off? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 15:59:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 21:59:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 24, 7 10:17:20 am Message-ID: > > The centre pin on Toshiba laptop power connectors is about 3mm, way > > bigger than the normal "fat" power connectors. The outside is the same. > > Hmm... I could believe it's a full 3mm. I'll do some digging on that. JVC used a 3.xxx mm diameter pin coaxial power connector on some of their portable VCR stuff. I have a portable Umatic machine that takes a lead-acid battey with suck a plug on the cable. I know I bought a suitable connector from Maplin (so I could make up my own battery packs), but it has probably been disocntinued by now :-( -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 24 16:17:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 17:17:38 -0400 Subject: Oi which Amstrads were available in the US? In-Reply-To: References: <526359.27333.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/24/07, Tony Duell wrote: > Typical Amstrad cost-cutting was that there was no cover on that battery > holder other than the base of the monitor. Good, then I'm not missing it on my PC1640. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 24 04:58:56 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 03:58:56 -0600 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465561E0.4000009@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 23:11 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> I wonder why the VT100 interface was so odd. Maybe to get it onto a 3 pin >>> connecotr so they could use the 3-pole jack plugs (as we call them over >> Engineer 1: "I bet I can do it with power, ground and one signal wire" >> Engineer 2: "I bet you can't" > > I'm suprised sobody at that point didn't suggest modulating the power > line and getting it down to 2 wires ;-) > > I was once told a probably apocryphal story that the 11/730 came about > because an engineer bet he could fit a VAX CPU onto 3 hex-height cards > using only standard chips :-) > > More seriosuly, I was once sort-of involved in a piece of digital design, > and there was some combinatorial block that took in 3 bus lines and > outputted an enable signal to a buffer chip. Without even thinking about > the problem, I said 'I can do that in one chip'. One of the others said > 'OK, a PROM or a PAL I suppose'. I said 'No, A normal, non-programmed > chip from the TTL data bool'. > > OK, which chip was I thinking off? Guessing a active low enable. Hmm TTL ... 74150 :) Almost any decoder comes to mind or some 3 input nands. > -tony > > . > From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 24 17:23:07 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 18:23:07 -0400 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200705241823.07589.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 24 May 2007 16:53, Tony Duell wrote: > More seriosuly, I was once sort-of involved in a piece of digital > design, and there was some combinatorial block that took in 3 bus > lines and outputted an enable signal to a buffer chip. Without even > thinking about the problem, I said 'I can do that in one chip'. One of > the others said 'OK, a PROM or a PAL I suppose'. I said 'No, A normal, > non-programmed chip from the TTL data bool'. > > OK, which chip was I thinking off? An 74138 3-to-8 demux? Or, possibly a 2-of-4 demux (74139), if you had at least one line that had to be low. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu May 24 17:27:44 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 23:27:44 +0100 Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46561160.5000206@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > More seriosuly, I was once sort-of involved in a piece of digital design, > and there was some combinatorial block that took in 3 bus lines and > outputted an enable signal to a buffer chip. Without even thinking about > the problem, I said 'I can do that in one chip'. One of the others said > 'OK, a PROM or a PAL I suppose'. I said 'No, A normal, non-programmed > chip from the TTL data bool'. > > OK, which chip was I thinking off? If all you want to do is select a single combination of three bits and enable based on that, a 74138 will do it. If you want a more complex set of enable conditions, a multiplexer like the 74151 would be better. Connect the three bits to the three 'select' inputs, and wire up the eight 'data' inputs to generate the truth table you need. It's a bit like an 8-bit ROM, in a way. You can use it with four input bits, too, but you might need an inverter as well. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 24 17:08:45 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 18:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200705242226.SAA00808@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > More seriosuly, I was once sort-of involved in a piece of digital > design, and there was some combinatorial block that took in 3 bus > lines and outputted an enable signal to a buffer chip. Without even > thinking about the problem, I said 'I can do that in one chip'. > OK, which chip was I thinking off? Depends. What levels did those three bus lines have to be to generate the enable? If they're all high or all low, a three- (or more-)input AND/NOR or NAND/OR (depending on whether the active level of the enable is high or low). If not, you could do it with an 8-to-1 mux with the inputs tied to fixed levels, but it seems rather wasteful - this does, however, have the advantage that you can run the inputs out to 8 jumpers and let the user jumper the thing to appear at any desired subset of the 8 possible places...or maybe that's a disadvantage; it depends. For most combinations, you could do it with a quad NAND or NOR, but I'd have to look at it exhaustively to be sure that's true for all eight possibilities. Also relevant is whether glitches are tolerable: is it acceptable for the enable line to go active for a nanosecond or two in the presence of certain transitions on the inputs that never actually include the magic combination? If not, you have to make sure all the delays work out properly. I don't recall the numbers for any of the above chips even for the 74xx family (which is the only one I know well enough to know those for). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From charlesmorris at hughes.net Thu May 24 17:35:16 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 17:35:16 -0500 Subject: VTserver : update In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90705240815j778a5c7cyb734bc7d04d854fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90705240815j778a5c7cyb734bc7d04d854fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9p3c53dbh5fm355eevk9gotqo5tevhans6@4ax.com> I have found, by scoping the data lines in and out of the laptop, that the endless loop on the laptop is only an internal display glitch - i.e. even though when I type characters they echo endlessly on the screen until another key is pressed, only the one (correct) character is sent to the PDP-11 at each keypress. Similarly, when ODT sends a single "@", continuous "@@@@@@@..." echoes on the display. Who knows why. It's annoying but apparently does not affect the functioning of VTserver. Then there was some more learning to interpret the cryptic messages for input and output devices. Although I thought the program was supposed to send my OS/8 image automatically from the "virtual tape" (and its name is in the .vtrc file with 0 = copy bootstrap, 1 = image file), I eventually learned that entering "vt(1,0,0)" (or maybe it was "0,0,1") would accept the OS/8 image file for input. Not sure if my output device command is correct though. I'm trying to write to my second RL02 drive (RL1: on the PDP-11/23+ with a "1" key) and the only output device string that would work is rl(0,1,0). The program does not explain the significance of the (n,n,n) fields, although it does prompt for a string in that format. It did display a confirmation each 100Kb, and did write the entire 2.5 Mb file to the RL drive! Although it's anyone's guess as to whether I did this correctly. When I put the pack in the RL02 attached to my 8/A and press Load, the "Ready" light does not come on, which I believe means the heads have not locked on the servo track. Which is strange because even if I wrote to the wrong places on the disk, it still should be able to sync up. AFAIK it is not possible to overwrite the servo tracks by writing blocks to the disk through a controller card? Or maybe the light is burnt out... or the pack I used is bad... Please also explain to me the limitation for the size of each partition under OS/8 again? 2500 Kb is less than 2 Mw at 12 bits per word? thanks -Charles On Thu, 24 May 2007 08:15:14 -0700, you wrote: >On 5/24/07, Charles wrote: >> yep, Win XP Pro. >> I don't want to go backwards to 98 though :) >> Anything else you could recommend? >> >> -Charles >> > >I wouldn't want to install Windows 98 on a system I was currently >using either. I just happened to have an old Windows 98 system around >that I could use. > >I didn't spend any time trying to figure out what the problem might be >on Windows XP. That would probably be a good thing to do if it might >help other people in the future. I had the VTServer source code and >could try working on it. Maybe I can find some time this weekend to >take a look again. > >-Glen From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 24 17:37:48 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 18:37:48 -0400 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465613BC.3040704@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> As a seller, I think that it's completely illogical to leave feedback for >> someone before the transaction is over. It's generally not safe to >> assume that the party on the buying (or selling end for that matter[0]) >> is completely reasonable. This is ebay, not civilized society. :) > > I have suggested before that E-bay should keep feedback (from either > party) secret until both parties have submitted their feedback, and only > then reveal it. It would help to stop the 'you left me a -ve, so I'm > leaving you one' type of activity. But then, if you were to leave negative feedback about someone and they didn't leave any feedback for you, wouldn't the negative they earned be hidden? Or would they give up the right to leave feedback after some amount of time, or something? Peace... Sridhar From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu May 24 18:16:56 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 16:16:56 -0700 Subject: VTserver : update In-Reply-To: <9p3c53dbh5fm355eevk9gotqo5tevhans6@4ax.com> References: <1e1fc3e90705240815j778a5c7cyb734bc7d04d854fe@mail.gmail.com> <9p3c53dbh5fm355eevk9gotqo5tevhans6@4ax.com> Message-ID: <46561CE8.8050804@shiresoft.com> Charles wrote: > I have found, by scoping the data lines in and out of the laptop, > that the endless loop on the laptop is only an internal display > glitch - i.e. even though when I type characters they echo > endlessly on the screen until another key is pressed, only the one > (correct) character is sent to the PDP-11 at each keypress. > Similarly, when ODT sends a single "@", continuous "@@@@@@@..." > echoes on the display. Who knows why. It's annoying but apparently > does not affect the functioning of VTserver. > > Then there was some more learning to interpret the cryptic > messages for input and output devices. Although I thought the > program was supposed to send my OS/8 image automatically from the > "virtual tape" (and its name is in the .vtrc file with 0 = copy > bootstrap, 1 = image file), I eventually learned that entering > "vt(1,0,0)" (or maybe it was "0,0,1") would accept the OS/8 image > file for input. > > Not sure if my output device command is correct though. I'm trying > to write to my second RL02 drive (RL1: on the PDP-11/23+ with a > "1" key) and the only output device string that would work is > rl(0,1,0). The program does not explain the significance of the > (n,n,n) fields, although it does prompt for a string in that > format. It did display a confirmation each 100Kb, and did write > the entire 2.5 Mb file to the RL drive! > It's from BSD (which is where a lot of the lower level code came from). The interpretation of the device naming is: (, , ) so rl(0,0,0) is "rl" driver, controller #0, drive #0, partition #0 (which is the whole drive) and rl(0,1,0) is "rl" driver, controller #0, drive #1, partition #0. > Although it's anyone's guess as to whether I did this correctly. > When I put the pack in the RL02 attached to my 8/A and press Load, > the "Ready" light does not come on, which I believe means the > heads have not locked on the servo track. Which is strange because > even if I wrote to the wrong places on the disk, it still should > be able to sync up. AFAIK it is not possible to overwrite the > servo tracks by writing blocks to the disk through a controller > card? Or maybe the light is burnt out... or the pack I used is > bad... > The RL does not have servo tracks. It has "wedge" or "embedded" servo. Unless you're drive is horribly out of alignment you can't overwrite the servo information with the drive (and I don't even think then). If the drive can't read the servo information then it will never come "ready". It's a problem with RL packs, since you need a special servo writer in order to write the servo information on the pack. If you manage to loose or corrupt the servo information (such as using a bulk eraser) then the pack is useless (except as a conversation piece). No RL drive will ever be able to use such a pack again. > Please also explain to me the limitation for the size of each > partition under OS/8 again? 2500 Kb is less than 2 Mw at 12 bits > per word? > > thanks > -Charles > > > > > On Thu, 24 May 2007 08:15:14 -0700, you wrote: > > >> On 5/24/07, Charles wrote: >> >>> yep, Win XP Pro. >>> I don't want to go backwards to 98 though :) >>> Anything else you could recommend? >>> >>> -Charles >>> >>> >> I wouldn't want to install Windows 98 on a system I was currently >> using either. I just happened to have an old Windows 98 system around >> that I could use. >> >> I didn't spend any time trying to figure out what the problem might be >> on Windows XP. That would probably be a good thing to do if it might >> help other people in the future. I had the VTServer source code and >> could try working on it. Maybe I can find some time this weekend to >> take a look again. >> >> -Glen >> > > > > -- TTFN - Guy From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 24 18:24:25 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 16:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <925979.94648.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> > > > Are there any listers in Seattle that'd be > willing to take a drive up > > > to the warehouse and give us a better look-see > at the contents? How close is this place to Seattle? (< Message-ID: <942105.65543.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Speaking of selling on eBay, how many people buy internationally? I expect > shipping to kill any trades outside New Zealand, so I don't sell old > computer gear on eBay, only on the biggest local auction site. Personally I only buy internationally if I find an item I want that is only available outside the UK, such as Japan-exclusive video games merchandise or rare stuff - the first 60 issues of 80 Microcomputing I got were from 2 guys, one was from Australia and the other guy was in America. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 24 18:39:48 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 16:39:48 -0700 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <925979.94648.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <925979.94648.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90705241639u822406cva50967555e8652c6@mail.gmail.com> On 5/24/07, Chris M wrote: > > > > Are there any listers in Seattle that'd be > > willing to take a drive up > > > > to the warehouse and give us a better look-see > > at the contents? > > How close is this place to Seattle? Burnaby is in the Vancouver, BC area. Somewhere around a 3hr drive from Seattle, depending on how long you get stuck in traffic at the border. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 24 18:42:24 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 19:42:24 -0400 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <942105.65543.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <942105.65543.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465622E0.7010700@gmail.com> Andrew Burton wrote: >> Speaking of selling on eBay, how many people buy internationally? I >> expect shipping to kill any trades outside New Zealand, so I don't >> sell old computer gear on eBay, only on the biggest local auction >> site. > > > Personally I only buy internationally if I find an item I want that > is only available outside the UK, such as Japan-exclusive video games > merchandise or rare stuff - the first 60 issues of 80 Microcomputing > I got were from 2 guys, one was from Australia and the other guy was > in America. There have been one or two times I've jumped on a deal on the other side of the Atlantic because I knew I could get big bucks for it over here. Like (item cost + transatlantic shipping) * 300%. Peace... Sridhar From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu May 24 19:39:20 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 24 May 2007 17:39:20 -0700 Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1180053560.46563038cc540@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Jeffrey Armstrong : > What's a CLUT, by the way? Not familiar with that acronym... > ---- CLUT = Color Look Up Table From kth at srv.net Thu May 24 19:37:43 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 18:37:43 -0600 Subject: VTserver : update In-Reply-To: <9p3c53dbh5fm355eevk9gotqo5tevhans6@4ax.com> References: <1e1fc3e90705240815j778a5c7cyb734bc7d04d854fe@mail.gmail.com> <9p3c53dbh5fm355eevk9gotqo5tevhans6@4ax.com> Message-ID: <46562FD7.8060408@srv.net> Charles wrote: > I have found, by scoping the data lines in and out of the laptop, > that the endless loop on the laptop is only an internal display > glitch - i.e. even though when I type characters they echo > endlessly on the screen until another key is pressed, only the one > (correct) character is sent to the PDP-11 at each keypress. > Similarly, when ODT sends a single "@", continuous "@@@@@@@..." > echoes on the display. Who knows why. It's annoying but apparently > does not affect the functioning of VTserver. > Check the ground line of your cable. I've seen plenty of weird things caused by that. > Not sure if my output device command is correct though. I'm trying > to write to my second RL02 drive (RL1: on the PDP-11/23+ with a > "1" key) and the only output device string that would work is > rl(0,1,0). The program does not explain the significance of the > (n,n,n) fields, although it does prompt for a string in that > format. It did display a confirmation each 100Kb, and did write > the entire 2.5 Mb file to the RL drive! > (controller, drive, partition) if I remember correctly > Although it's anyone's guess as to whether I did this correctly. > When I put the pack in the RL02 attached to my 8/A and press Load, > the "Ready" light does not come on, which I believe means the > heads have not locked on the servo track. Which is strange because > even if I wrote to the wrong places on the disk, it still should > be able to sync up. AFAIK it is not possible to overwrite the > servo tracks by writing blocks to the disk through a controller > card? Or maybe the light is burnt out... or the pack I used is > bad... > I recall that some of the drives from DEC came in a 6-bit version for the pdp-8, pdp-10, etc and an 8-bit version for the pdp-11, vax, etc. Was the RL02 like this? > Please also explain to me the limitation for the size of each > partition under OS/8 again? 2500 Kb is less than 2 Mw at 12 bits > p From g-wright at att.net Thu May 24 19:45:39 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 00:45:39 +0000 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale Message-ID: <052520070045.28686.465631B3000A77460000700E21602807419B0809079D99D309@att.net> Just north of the border. 3+ hours from Seattle with good traffic and border lines. Just loading that much stuff would be a major under taking. I did talk to a local scraper here in Seattle but so far, He is not interested. I also have a complete Canon AS-100 that works. - Jerry -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Chris M > > > > > Are there any listers in Seattle that'd be > > willing to take a drive up > > > > to the warehouse and give us a better look-see > > at the contents? > > How close is this place to Seattle? (< map it). Transportation is one thing - where are > *y'all* gonna bloody well store all the stuff? He > really should allow people to come in and cherry pick > what they want, he'd make more money that way > undoubtedly. And what's a 1000+ lot of that old stuff > worth anyway? As a bulk deal a few grand... > BUT...if anyone finds a Canon AS-100 in the_pile, > consider it claimed :). My up and coming baby is going > to need some company before too long ;). Man it's been > too long a wait, but the day is approaching... > Oh by the way I could be in Seattle in 5-7 weeks... > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________ > ____ > Don't pick lemons. > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From mkath at charter.net Thu May 24 19:48:38 2007 From: mkath at charter.net (Matt & Kathy Carpenter) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 20:48:38 -0400 Subject: hey, a digest reader has an eBay feedback comment! Message-ID: <746D09B9-172F-4369-9C21-3FCB279BCACD@charter.net> I'm compelled to comment on the eBay topic. First, I have to say that while it isn't bits and bytes, it is relevant to the group. A lot of collectors of classic gear actually get that gear from eBay. Every one of my 20 or so classic systems came from eBay... Anyway, I recently bought an item and received this in a form e-mail from the seller: 3)Am I going to receive a feedback from you since I paid immediately. Due to overwhelming feedback request(we are all feedback junkies), I set my system to Automatically leave POSITIVE feedback to buyer when the following TWO conditions are met: i) item is paid. AND ii) Buyer left me a positive feedback. Of course, I was steamed about this. It's just not in the spirit of how eBay is supposed to work. I actually went to eBay to try to find a policy about this, stumbled into the discussion forums and quickly realized that eBay, like Chuck said, has all the integrity of "open-air bazaar in Marrakesh". Tony's suggestion of keeping feedback private until both parties submit feedback seems like a workable idea. On the buying side, I also have a good suggestion - so much of the buying on eBay these days is facilitated through PayPal (50 % or better?). As a result, eBay knows when a seller has been paid. So why not give automatic positive feedback. I mean, what really would a seller have to say after the buyer pays? It's amazing that in their recent revamp of the feedback system, what they delivered is the best they could do. -Matt From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 24 19:48:55 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 17:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microvax II Message-ID: <613725.34470.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> um, I've had this thing for a while now. It's pretty shabby. The front plastic bezel thing fell off (prolly cause SOMEONE keeps pushing the Honda against it). Other parts and pieces are strewn around the yard. I resisted the urge to send all that crap out for the metal pickup (oh anyone want a rusty 1914 Dalton lathe - only $75 if you pick it up. Real nice babbitt spindle bearings ;). So what to do? Should I actually turn it on? Some board fell out of it not long after I pulled in the driveway 2 winters ago. What's it good for anyway? I hate to just chuck it. At one time these things were going for a G+ on duh bay. Not this puppy though. I'm totally open to suggestions. If anyone has a clean doner (or parts) I could very well be interested. I can't say I have much in the way for a trade though... ____________________________________________________________________________________You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html From rcini at optonline.net Thu May 24 19:52:47 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 20:52:47 -0400 Subject: Bad MAK file help Message-ID: All: I?m trying to build this 32-bit debugger program (using MASM on MSDOS 6) and it doesn?t build anything past the first obj file. I?ve spent a while playing around with this and I can?t readily see what?s wrong ? probably my unfamiliarity with manual MAK files. Can someone take a quick look at this and let me know what?s wrong? Thanks! #make file for the debugger OBJ1=dbisr.obj dbinit.obj dbvid.obj dbcmd.obj dbedit.obj dbdbreg.obj dbmain.obj dbsupt.obj dbint9.obj AINC=dbequ.inc dbstruc.inc dbdat.inc dbpdat.inc dbmac.inc .asm.obj: masm $*; # ASM Sources dbisr.obj: $*.asm $(AINC) dbinit.obj: $*.asm $(AINC) dbvid.obj: $*.asm $(AINC) dbcmd.obj: $*.asm $(AINC) dbedit.obj: $*.asm $(AINC) dbdbreg.obj: $*.asm $(AINC) dbmain.obj: $*.asm $(AINC) dbsupt.obj: $*.asm $(AINC) dbint9.obj: $*.asm $(AINC) # Executable db.exe: $(OBJ1) link @db.lnk  Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From ohh at drizzle.com Thu May 24 19:59:37 2007 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 17:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-12 MAINDEC Listing? Message-ID: Hey, all: Does someone have, or know of, an online PDF of DEC's "PDP-12 Tape Control Test" (parts 1 and 2) MAINDEC manuals? I've got a PDP-12 which I've gradually been breathing the life back into, and so far it's gone very well... but then I got to the LINCtape control and drives, which are acting like they're _trying_ to do useful things but aren't, and frankly I need to learn more to figure out what the heck is going on in there. MAINDEC listings are usually pretty helpful for that. :) Thanks! -O.- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 19:59:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 01:59:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, In-Reply-To: <46561160.5000206@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at May 24, 7 11:27:44 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > More seriosuly, I was once sort-of involved in a piece of digital design, > > and there was some combinatorial block that took in 3 bus lines and > > outputted an enable signal to a buffer chip. Without even thinking about > > the problem, I said 'I can do that in one chip'. One of the others said > > 'OK, a PROM or a PAL I suppose'. I said 'No, A normal, non-programmed > > chip from the TTL data bool'. > > > > OK, which chip was I thinking off? > > If all you want to do is select a single combination of three > bits and enable based on that, a 74138 will do it. If you want > a more complex set of enable conditions, a multiplexer like the > 74151 would be better. Connect the three bits to the three Exactly. Without knowing anything about the actual function, I knew I could do it with a 74x151 (acutally, a 74F151) 8 input mux. The fact that I wsa using the output to enable a data buffer rather than, say, to clock a counter, means that odd glitches on that output of said circuit didn't matter. > 'select' inputs, and wire up the eight 'data' inputs to > generate the truth table you need. It's a bit like an 8-bit > ROM, in a way. It is _exactly_ like an 8 bit ROM, in that it consists of a fixed AND matrix (the decoder section of the mux) follwed by a prograamble OR matrix (here just one output). > > You can use it with four input bits, too, but you might need > an inverter as well. Yep. Or alternatively for the 3 inputs, I could have used the 74x153 4-input mux and maybe a single inverter. -tony From charlesmorris at hughes.net Thu May 24 20:13:30 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 20:13:30 -0500 Subject: Complete success, OS/8 is up and running :) Message-ID: I am pleased to report a complete success with my 8/A,VTserver via 11/23+,RL02,OS-8 conglomeration. I think it's the *only* time that any project (with that many places for possible screwups) has worked for me on the first try :) As I had reported earlier, I managed to get *something* written onto an RL02 pack using VTserver to talk to my 11/23+. But when I put the pack in the 8/A's RL02, for some reason it wouldn't go Ready initially. After powering down the system and drive, removing the pack, reinserting, etc. then it did light the Ready light. No weird noises either. That was a relief. I had to do a little rewiring of the console port cable since I'd previously set it up for RS232 and I wanted to use an "authentic" ASR33 for the console with 20 ma current loop. I entered a short test program to read the keyboard and echo to the printer. That worked. So far so good, the 8/A is still alive after sitting for a year or more. Then I had to dig out the manual for the 8/A to figure out how to boot it from an RL02... OK, the boot ROM takes care of the addressing, just push the "BOOT" key. Not too hard :) SO I did that - the RL02 gently clucked and the Ready light flickered, and I heard one character print on the TTY across the room. I rushed over and peered at the canary-yellow paper while holding my breath (doing so helps 30 year old hardware and software work better) and lo and behold... a single "." Yee ha! I think it's up! I hopefully typed "DIR" and hit the return - and there came the directory of my disk image, just like on SIMH except with all the noise and oily scent of a Teletype. :) :) :) -Charles From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 24 20:28:50 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 18:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 24, 7 10:07:01 pm" Message-ID: <200705250128.l4P1SopE019288@floodgap.com> > > As a seller, I think that it's completely illogical to leave feedback for > > someone before the transaction is over. It's generally not safe to > > assume that the party on the buying (or selling end for that matter[0]) > > is completely reasonable. This is ebay, not civilized society. :) > > I have suggested before that E-bay should keep feedback (from either > party) secret until both parties have submitted their feedback, and only > then reveal it. It would help to stop the 'you left me a -ve, so I'm > leaving you one' type of activity. I think this is a great idea too. But somehow eBay never figures this out. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Of course I run NetBSD. ---------------------------------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 24 09:36:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 08:36:32 -0600 Subject: Complete success, OS/8 is up and running :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4655A2F0.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Charles wrote: > SO I did that - the RL02 gently clucked and the Ready light > flickered, and I heard one character print on the TTY across the > room. I rushed over and peered at the canary-yellow paper while > holding my breath (doing so helps 30 year old hardware and > software work better) and lo and behold... a single "." > Yee ha! I think it's up! Advent has been updated ... so you don't need to hold your breath. That is great that all your hardware works. > I hopefully typed "DIR" and hit the return - and there came the > directory of my disk image, just like on SIMH except with all the > noise and oily scent of a Teletype. > > :) :) :) Has anybody made yet a IDE drive adapter for the PDP8 while we still can get smallish drives? > -Charles > > > . > From bmachacek at pcisys.net Thu May 24 22:02:40 2007 From: bmachacek at pcisys.net (Bill Machacek) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 21:02:40 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 question Message-ID: <003201c79e79$28559fc0$0200000a@nitrogen> I was just able to pick up 2 Commodore 64 units. One has monitor (1701) and disk drive (1541) and works fine. The other Commodore (computer portion only) has the Power light come on, but that's about it. It does not even cause the monitor screen to be active. My question is, is there possibly a simple solution as to why the C64 is not working? I have not opened it up yet, and I'm not a real "techie", but I could do some simple internal checks if I knew what to look for. Thanks for any help anyone may be able to give me. Bill Machacek From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 24 22:09:33 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 20:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64 question In-Reply-To: <003201c79e79$28559fc0$0200000a@nitrogen> from Bill Machacek at "May 24, 7 09:02:40 pm" Message-ID: <200705250309.l4P39X32013262@floodgap.com> > I was just able to pick up 2 Commodore 64 units. One has monitor (1701) and > disk drive (1541) and works fine. The other Commodore (computer portion > only) has the Power light come on, but that's about it. It does not even > cause the monitor screen to be active. My question is, is there possibly a > simple solution as to why the C64 is not working? I have not opened it up > yet, and I'm not a real "techie", but I could do some simple internal checks > if I knew what to look for. Thanks for any help anyone may be able to give > me. Typical black screen problems on a C64 are 1) power supply 2) PLA 3) fuse The PLA is described in this article: http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/display.cgi?438 Try swapping this chip between the two units and see if it changes things, assuming the power supply is known to be good. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Magic armour is not all it's cracked up to be. -- Terry Pratchett ---------- From jzg22 at drexel.edu Thu May 24 22:22:45 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 23:22:45 -0400 Subject: C.Itoh Keyboard repair (was CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, now I've gone and done it..., Dragged home more big(ish) iron...)) In-Reply-To: <200705221704.l4MH4Cww065832@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705221704.l4MH4Cww065832@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46565685.3080505@drexel.edu> I've actually fixed one of the CIT-220+ keyboards. It's *not* a job for the faint of heart. It requires desoldering all 130-odd keys (this REQUIRES a GOOD $250 desoldering iron, lacking this I paid someone $60 to do it for me), prying each key apart with two sewing-pins, pulling the contact out and scouring out the crap in between the little contact pads using a pin, and bending the sensor-push plate/spring back into an L shape so the key gets good sensitivity. The keyboard I had required this because someone at my university had spilled something (milk perhaps?) into it and it wicked up into about half the keys and got between the metal sensor plates. (The metal sensor plates are the C.Itoh cheap alternative to any DECENT type of keyboard key mechanism such as one the IBM model M clicky keyboard used. I also strongly suspect the real DEC vt-220 and vt-330 used better technology but I've never seen a real DEC one. :( ) I'm on the lookout for a C.Itoh CIT-220+ manual or a real DEC vt-330 (plus KB) since I have the manual for a vt-330 and it looks far superior to the CIT-220+. I've also dumped all the ROMs from the CIT-220+ if anyone wants/needs a copy. (IIRC it uses an 8085 plus two GFX chips plus RAM plus EEPROM plus a bunch of logic chips in the main unit, and an 8032 or 8048 in the keyboard.) I could also scan the VT-330 manual if needed, though it will take a while. Jonathan Gevaryahu jzg22 at drexel.edu From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu May 24 23:11:20 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 05:11:20 +0100 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. References: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com>, <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <464B9184.3133.D3585C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <01d001c79e82$c1efbe00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > You forgot the 432, which was very revolutionary in design and >contemporaneous with the 8086. Which shows you how far dramatic >innovation will get you. Didn't forget....just not aware of, LOL. > No apologist for Intel, I think that context is important here. At >the time that the 8086 (and 8088) was deployed, there was already a >large body of x80 software.... Actually, the book I read around 1982 about programming the 8086 (which is the only assembly language book I've ever disposed of BTW) went to great lengths to explain why the 8086 is, essentially, a 16-bit 8080. Whilst I fully agree that the reasons for the way the 8086 was designed make excellent BUSINESS sense, in terms of real technological progress it was, IMO, a very definite side-step. :-( But my point is, all of the Intel processors I've had direct dealings with (from a software/hardware design point of view) have been very backward in their overall architecture; though that said, the 8050 family are damn good at what they were designed for (if somewhat rough around the edges). > I really was a booster for the 68K--and programmed for it. But no >one ever represented that there was a simple and straightforward way >to translate x80 assembly to 68K code.... I also did a *LOT* of 68k assembly language programming back in my ST days, was a lot of fun. With the exception of 8080 -> 8086, I can't offhand think of any examples where converting source code from one architecture to another would be simple and straightforward. >....nor was it clear if it was going to be simple to use x80 peripherals >with the 68K. True, but couldn't 6800 family peripheral chips be made to work with the 68k fairly easily? If you're going to have to re-write the code anyway, driving different peripheral chips shouldn't be too difficult (unless you're using Z80 peripherals with vectored interrupts, DMA etc). > Zilog had trotted out the Z8000 at about the same time, but it wasn't >clear if they were all that serious. IKWYM. I don't recall much about the Z8000 now, but I did read the data sheets for it somewhere around 1984 (1983?). About all I remember is that it was a strange, illogical design. And that my impression was that it wouldn't catch on (ironically, mainly because of the 68000). > So you saw a dichotomy--existing CP/M applications that were run on >the Kaypros and Osbornes made it into the 8086 world.... Quite, when I built my first PC in 1990, I ran the MS-Dos version of Wordstar until I finally gave in and switched to Win95 aroud the end of '96. In fact, ISTR using it regularly on my ST in the late 80's using a PC emulator. Fun times.... :-) > I don't really blame the guys in Boca Raton for choosing the 8088. >There was software for it, but you keep costs down with an 8-bit bus >and use commonly-available peripheral chips. Had the the 68K been >chosen (and it was a strong rumor, particularly after the IBM 68K- >based lab computer was announced before the 5150), it might never >have been as successful. Actually, I remember reading an interview in an issue of Byte some years ago, where the leader of the PC design project was quoted as saying that his original choice for the processor was the 68000. However, they were forced to switch to the 8088 because one of Motorolas' two 68k fabrication facilities had gone bad, and Motorola couldn't guarantee delivery dates for the processors. And since they were also very pushed for time, and had experience of the Intel architecture from a previous project.... I'd like to think that if the 68k had been chosen we'd have had far more advanced PCs far quicker (I'm thinking back to the many 68k implementations of UNIX amongst other things). But I do take your point about the availability of software, let's face it, the *ONLY* reason I switched from my Atari ST to the PC was software. Although....if we'd had 68k/UNIX based boxes on our desktops instead of 8086/DOS who's to say that there wouldn't have been a similar explosion of software? TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu May 24 23:18:01 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 05:18:01 +0100 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. References: <009201c7983b$b2e87660$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <464B9184.3133.D3585C@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070517105248.0367e808@mail.30below.com> <464C1C1F.24276.2F0C770@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <01e101c79e83$af5e0f70$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....Were there ever any 6800-based "killer apps"? Starglider? :-)) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu May 24 23:34:43 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 05:34:43 +0100 Subject: O YEAH! What a deal!!! References: <987841.6889.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01ea01c79e86$11b5c580$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> For a suitable definition of 'nice'. Actually I >>don't much care for it, as it's can't read or write >>a 'standard' (FM or MFM) disk. The ability to >>exchange disks with the rest of the world is >>something I put very high up my list of desirable >>features. > > Those drives couldn't read a standard MFM encoded >disk? I would have sworn there was a utility to >accomplish that. No, that's right. The standard disc controller in the Sirius couldn't handle FM or MFM discs at all. I used to collect Sirii and Apricots, as I recall at some point *very* late in the life of the machine the manufacturers produced a floppy controller board which could read/write standard IBM 5.25' floppies. I don't know whether this board supported both IBM and "Sirius" formats or which IBM format (360K/1.2MB), but they did exist and were rarer than hen's teeth even back in 1990 - I knew two people who had them, despite never being able to find one myself. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri May 25 00:05:37 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 06:05:37 +0100 Subject: hey, a digest reader has an eBay feedback comment! References: Message-ID: <021501c79e8a$567a2770$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > On the buying side, I also have a good suggestion - so much of the >buying on eBay these days is facilitated through PayPal (50 % or >better?). As a result, eBay knows when a seller has been paid. So >why not give automatic positive feedback. I mean, what really would >a seller have to say after the buyer pays? I can tell you what a seller might have to say.... I had a case of a US buyer paying immediately for an auction he'd won, but the postage specified was for UK delivery and there was a clear instruction for international buyers to contact me prior to sending payment for postage costs. Needless to say, he refused to pay the extra few pounds for postage. But instead of emailing me to arrange to back out of the deal so I could offer it to the next bidder, he contacts eBay and PayPal and has PayPal freeze my account because I'd allegedly ripped HIM off and didn't have the item I'd auctioned! I got the last laugh though. To get PayPal to reinstate my account I had to provide them with a tracking number for the parcel....the amount I'd charged for postage just barely covered surface mail to his location, which would take 12 weeks to get there....!!!! LMAO! Outside of a couple of non-paying bidders, that was the only time I've been forced to leave negative feedback. But unfortunately, there are some real aholes out there. :-( TTFN - Pete. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 25 00:29:06 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 01:29:06 -0400 Subject: VTserver : update In-Reply-To: <46562FD7.8060408@srv.net> References: <1e1fc3e90705240815j778a5c7cyb734bc7d04d854fe@mail.gmail.com> <9p3c53dbh5fm355eevk9gotqo5tevhans6@4ax.com> <46562FD7.8060408@srv.net> Message-ID: On 5/24/07, Kevin Handy wrote: > I recall that some of the drives from DEC came in a 6-bit > version for the pdp-8, pdp-10, etc and an 8-bit version for the > pdp-11, vax, etc. Was the RL02 like this? No. As we've discussed earlier in this thread, the whole advantage of using the RL02 (besides the fact that Charles has a PDP-11 controller _and_ a PDP-8 controller ;-) is that there is *no host-based difference* in the packs. Unlike the RK05, there is one and only one format for RL01 and one and only one format for RL02 packs, no matter if it is going into a PDP-8, PDP-11 or VAX. Unlike an RK05 or a DECtape I, customers cannot format RL01 and RL02 packs (they use embedded servo data), so there's not even any way to change it in the field. The filesystem is entirely platform dependent, but in this case, Charles is using (has used) a standalone program to pull a working RL02 image for the PDP-8 across a serial port _through_ a PDP-11 to an RL02 pack. This would *not* work for an RK05, but, software difficulties aside, is not impossible when the destination is an RL01 or RL02 pack. Think of it like the difference in a PC between an ST506 drive and an IDE drive - one can easily migrate the IDE drive from platform to platform to platform because the host doesn't care about stuff at the flux level, but the ST506-type drive sure does. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 25 00:30:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 01:30:47 -0400 Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: <200705250128.l4P1SopE019288@floodgap.com> References: <200705250128.l4P1SopE019288@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 5/24/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I think this is a great idea too. But somehow eBay never figures this out. Never forget that eBay is in business for eBay. Your needs are irrelevant. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 25 00:45:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 22:45:35 -0700 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <01d001c79e82$c1efbe00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <310f50ab0705140357k7d58defdwb8c6cd9ddd5cd4ba@mail.gmail.com>, <01d001c79e82$c1efbe00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4656158F.20641.29E70990@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 May 2007 at 5:11, Ensor wrote: >> True, but couldn't 6800 family peripheral chips be made to work with the 68k > fairly easily? If you're going to have to re-write the code anyway, driving > different peripheral chips shouldn't be too difficult (unless you're using > Z80 peripherals with vectored interrupts, DMA etc). Yes, but at the time, the range of 808x peripheral chips was far broader than that available for 6800. I could never figure out if Moto really intended the 6800 as a serioius stand-alone microprocessor or not. They certainly didn't seem to take much notice when the 6502 walked away with what should have been 6800 business. > IKWYM. I don't recall much about the Z8000 now, but I did read the data > sheets for it somewhere around 1984 (1983?). Cipher used the Z8002 extensively in their tape drives and Onyx+IMI had a Z8000 Unix box, as did a few other vendors. Olivetti used it in their M20 desktop computer, but it made precious few inroads into the PC market otherwise. AMD was a second-source for it and Siemens partnered with them to form AMC, whose purpose was to promote the Z8000 with software and systems. That one fizzled after a mercifully short period of boondoggling. (Hey Al K., I've got some AMC Z8000 product manuals; are you interested in them for Bitsavers?) > Quite, when I built my first PC in 1990, I ran the MS-Dos version of > Wordstar until I finally gave in and switched to Win95 aroud the end of '96. > In fact, ISTR using it regularly on my ST in the late 80's using a PC > emulator. You'd be surprised at how convenient the MS-DOS "put the function code in CL and CALL 0005h" came in handy with translated code. That, and the FCB, which, in important fields matched the CP/M FCB. > Actually, I remember reading an interview in an issue of Byte some years > ago, where the leader of the PC design project was quoted as saying that his > original choice for the processor was the 68000. It was mine for Durango's own business systems. We'd actually built a wirewrapped prototype and were developing the basic software (diagnositcs, IPL code, etc.) for it when Bill Davidow, who sat on Durango's board, declared that it'd be a cold day in hell when we'd use a non-Intel CPU. As a result, we wasted precious time (months and months) sturggling with buggy steppings of the 80186 and vague promises from both Intel and Microsoft that 80286 Xenix would be ready Real Soon Now. So Durango put out their 80186 CPU with rebadged Beehive terminal as a PC "almost compatible". Customers didn't know what the heck to make of it and deserted us in droves. I like to think that if we'd stayed the course with a 68K design, we might have survived a bit longer. > Although....if we'd had 68k/UNIX based boxes on our desktops instead of > 8086/DOS who's to say that there wouldn't have been a similar explosion of > software? To me, one thing that saved the PC from becoming yet another niche product was its video display--and the products developed to take advantage of it, Windows being one of them. Heck, I still have the source code somewher for Mewel, if anyone remembers that. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 25 00:57:28 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 22:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new ebay feedback In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "May 25, 7 01:30:47 am" Message-ID: <200705250557.l4P5vSS0032618@floodgap.com> > > I think this is a great idea too. But somehow eBay never figures this out. > > Never forget that eBay is in business for eBay. Your needs are irrelevant. You have shattered my idealism. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Greg Morris --------------------------------------------------- ;-) From robert at irrelevant.com Fri May 25 01:54:04 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 07:54:04 +0100 Subject: hey, a digest reader has an eBay feedback comment! In-Reply-To: <021501c79e8a$567a2770$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <021501c79e8a$567a2770$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705242354r738202b1qa8be8f0c7430a21c@mail.gmail.com> On 25/05/07, Ensor wrote: > I had a case of a US buyer paying immediately for an auction he'd won, but > the postage specified was for UK delivery and there was a clear instruction > for international buyers to contact me prior to sending payment for postage > costs. > Seconded!! Even when I quoted postage rates on the auction.. I've also received money orders for a quantity of USD equal to the number of GBP the item sold for - i.e. about half the value, even if I could cash it for a reasonable price. Oh, and stroppy buyers saying WHY can't I take a personal cheque (check). Um, coz it costs a fortune and takes an age to clear foreign cheques! This is after they win an auction that states all this... Whilst I can't say I didn't have problems with domestic buyers occasionally, I'm afraid to say that all the problems with international buyers were with the US... However, in about 3000 sales, we managed to keep 100% positive feedback, but it was hard work at times keeping buyers happy.. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri May 25 03:18:29 2007 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 04:18:29 -0400 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <052520070045.28686.465631B3000A77460000700E21602807419B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <052520070045.28686.465631B3000A77460000700E21602807419B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <46569BD5.3080005@dragonsweb.org> g-wright at att.net wrote: > Just north of the border. 3+ hours from Seattle with > good traffic and border lines. Just loading that much > stuff would be a major under taking. I did talk to a > local scraper here in Seattle but so far, He is not > interested. > > I also have a complete Canon AS-100 that works. > > - Jerry > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: Chris M >>>>> Are there any listers in Seattle that'd be >>> willing to take a drive up >>>>> to the warehouse and give us a better look-see >>> at the contents? >> How close is this place to Seattle? (<> map it). Transportation is one thing - where are >> *y'all* gonna bloody well store all the stuff? He >> really should allow people to come in and cherry pick >> what they want, he'd make more money that way >> undoubtedly. And what's a 1000+ lot of that old stuff >> worth anyway? As a bulk deal a few grand... >> BUT...if anyone finds a Canon AS-100 in the_pile, >> consider it claimed :). My up and coming baby is going >> to need some company before too long ;). Man it's been >> too long a wait, but the day is approaching... >> Oh by the way I could be in Seattle in 5-7 weeks... >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________ >> ____ >> Don't pick lemons. >> See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. >> http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html > > I could use a vacation. If stricklin and/or anyone else strikes a deal with this guy, I will volunteer to drive,load,'n'deliver for expenses and negotiable pick of litter. I'm closing in on warehouse space for an acquisition of this size, but not quite there yet, otherwise I would have tried to work something out myself, anyway. If anyone is the Dallas/Richardson, TX area gets in on this deal, I'd be particularly interested, as there may be some items there I'd want to collect on the return trip. Won't know till I get there. jbdigriz From brad at heeltoe.com Fri May 25 04:16:24 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 05:16:24 -0400 Subject: Bad MAK file help In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 24 May 2007 20:52:47 EDT." Message-ID: <200705250916.l4P9GOH1016610@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > ># Executable >db.exe: $(OBJ1) > link @db.lnk put this target (db.exe) *before* the "# asm sources" obj targets. it's taking the first target as the default. you could also say "make db.exe" and it should build everything. I generally make the first target something like: all: db.exe and then the order does not matter. -brad From rcini at optonline.net Fri May 25 04:27:55 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 05:27:55 -0400 Subject: Bad MAK file help In-Reply-To: <200705250916.l4P9GOH1016610@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: I'll give this a try; thanks a lot. This was a direct cut-and-paste from sources that supposedly compiled. Is it possible that the makefile I have is for something other than Microsoft MASM (Like Borland TASM)? No specific tool chain was specified. On 5/25/07 5:16 AM, "Brad Parker" wrote: > > "Richard A. Cini" wrote: >> >> # Executable >> db.exe: $(OBJ1) >> link @db.lnk > > put this target (db.exe) *before* the "# asm sources" obj targets. > > it's taking the first target as the default. > > you could also say "make db.exe" and it should build everything. > > I generally make the first target something like: > > all: db.exe > > and then the order does not matter. > > -brad Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From gordon at gjcp.net Fri May 25 04:18:57 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 10:18:57 +0100 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1180084738.25290.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 21:59 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The centre pin on Toshiba laptop power connectors is about 3mm, way > > > bigger than the normal "fat" power connectors. The outside is the same. > > > > Hmm... I could believe it's a full 3mm. I'll do some digging on that. > > JVC used a 3.xxx mm diameter pin coaxial power connector on some of their > portable VCR stuff. I have a portable Umatic machine that takes a > lead-acid battey with suck a plug on the cable. I know I bought a > suitable connector from Maplin (so I could make up my own battery packs), > but it has probably been disocntinued by now :-( I'm surprised you didn't do something clever with brass tubing and heatshrink ;-) Gordon From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri May 25 05:34:05 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 20:34:05 +1000 Subject: hey, a digest reader has an eBay feedback comment! References: <746D09B9-172F-4369-9C21-3FCB279BCACD@charter.net> Message-ID: <075a01c79eb8$39cbb110$0100a8c0@pentium> > Due to overwhelming feedback request(we are all feedback junkies), I set > my system to Automatically leave POSITIVE feedback to buyer when the > following > TWO conditions are met: > i) item is paid. AND > ii) Buyer left me a positive feedback. As a seller I always leave feedback as soon as the buyer has paid, I do not leave feedback as a buyer until the seller has left theirs. cheers, Lance From charlesmorris at hughes.net Fri May 25 09:29:21 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 09:29:21 -0500 Subject: Now I need some OS/8 experts... Message-ID: Now that OS/8 is running on my 8/A, RL02 system, I find I'm in need of some more detailed help. Although I'm wading through the 900+ pages of the "OS/8 Handbook" (and the Device Extensions document which at least addresses RL01's), I'm having a problem adding device handlers as follows. When I built the OS/8 image, it looks like I added only one RL02 partition (here is the current BUILD printout): >sim> bo rl > >.SET SYS NOINIT > >.RUN SYS BUILD > >$PR > >BAT : *BAT >KL8E: *TTY >LPSV: *LPT >RK05: *RKA0 *RKB0 *RKA1 *RKB1 RKA2 RKB2 RKA3 RKB3 >RX02: *RXA0 *RXA1 >TD8A: *DTA0 *DTA1 >R2SY: *SYS *R20A > >DSK=R2SY:R20A >$ Doing a DIR shows "118 Files in 2517 Blocks - 1515 Free Blocks", or ~4000 total blocks on the disk, which is also consistent with one RL02 partition (A=40%,B=40%,C=20%) of the total 10000 free blocks. The RKB0: Diagnostic Pack has several handlers including: RL2SY.BH (which is what I am using), and also RL20.BH, RL21.BH, and RL2E.BH (not sure what that one is). But any attempt to LOAD RKB0:RL20.BH (for example) causes SIMH to stop with a "HALT instruction, PC: 20100 (ISZ 122)" message. I tried removing R2SY: entirely (after setting SYS to RKA0:) and still it won't work when trying to install other RL handlers. Also when reloading it will only allow n=1 (platter) which I suppose is correct. This may be why I only have one partition. I did this over a year ago and don't remember all the details. ANY ideas how to install the next partitions (R20B and C)? Also, since I am planning on adding a second RL02 drive, I will need (I think) R21A, B, C to appear in the active list. Is it even possible to add a second RL02 under OS/8? The C partitions aren't really necessary and are slow. I doubt I will ever get close to filling up even the A and B's (8 Mb per pack).... Thanks for any help. -Charles From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri May 25 09:37:18 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 07:37:18 -0700 Subject: Floppy configurations on IBM PC 5150/5160 Message-ID: <20070525073718.skxvmezjmpeskg4g@webmail3.secure-wi.com> The standard floppy controller can drive up to four floppies, two internal and two external. And the motherboards of these machines have dip switches that allow you to tell them how many drives are connected. But those switches are just a simple count of drives, not which chain the drives are connected to. Normally I see these machines with two internal floppies, and nothing else. On the 5160 I have here in the office I am about to add an external floppy using the external connector on the floppy controller; the machine has a single drive installed internally now. How does the BIOS handle this situation? If I tell it that there are 2 drives will it try to figure out that one is internal and one is external? Do I need device driver help, or is this something the BIOS tries to handle? Is there something on the controller card I am supposed to do to tell it how the drives are connected/organized? Mike From jzg22 at drexel.edu Fri May 25 10:03:06 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 11:03:06 -0400 Subject: Real DEC Keyboard (Was: C.Itoh keyboard repair) In-Reply-To: <200705250832.39069.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <200705250832.39069.mark@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4656FAAA.9030607@drexel.edu> Mark Wickens wrote: > Jonathan, > > This is what an LK201 supplied with VT220 terminals looks like on the inside: > > http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/public-gallery/LK201 > > Each key has a 'leafspring' mechanism. Not what I was expecting anyway... > > Mark. > Looking at those pictures, it seems the CIT-220+ keyboard is not all that dissimilar in electrical design from the DEC one. It uses the same kind of leaf switches but mounted in a completely different way, and the leaves themselves don't act as electrical contacts on the CIT one, just as secondary springs to push the thin contact plates. If I remember correctly, the CIT keys look sort of like this if chopped in half down the middle: II-||-II ICLKK I ICLKK I _CLSS _ |C LS | -------- D where C is the contact plate assembly S is the main spring K is the bottom of the key plunger L is the leaf spring _ is the place where the key plastic comes into two halves I is the tab which holds the bottom half onto the top half - is the bottom of the key D is the solder tabs for the contact plate | are the walls of the bottom part of the key The leaf springs look like this if zoomed in, if I remember right: side: | | < \ \ front: _______ |_ _| | | | | |_._| / _ \ |_/ \_| I also worked out the complete key matrix for the CIT keyboard at one point, I'll see if I can find it. Jonathan Gevaryahu jzg22 at drexel.edu From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 25 10:22:24 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 08:22:24 -0700 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <4656158F.20641.29E70990@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" >On 25 May 2007 at 5:11, Ensor wrote: ---snip--- >> > > IKWYM. I don't recall much about the Z8000 now, but I did read the data > > sheets for it somewhere around 1984 (1983?). > >Cipher used the Z8002 extensively in their tape drives and Onyx+IMI >had a Z8000 Unix box, as did a few other vendors. Olivetti used it >in their M20 desktop computer, but it made precious few inroads into >the PC market otherwise. AMD was a second-source for it and Siemens >partnered with them to form AMC, whose purpose was to promote the >Z8000 with software and systems. That one fizzled after a mercifully >short period of boondoggling. (Hey Al K., I've got some AMC Z8000 >product manuals; are you interested in them for Bitsavers?) > Hi When Federico Faggin spoke at CHM, I asked him why they never finished the math coprocessor for the Z8000. He said that by that time the writing was on the wall. Intel had captured the market with the PC. >From what I was told, if it wasn't for a lot of lobbying by the Federico and his team, Intel might never have actually been in the uP business. By the time I worked for them, it was about 50% of the business. The Japanese took over the RAM business with both cheaper prices and, obvious to the users, better quality parts. This pushed Intel to be more solidly in the uP business. Olivetti also made a M40 and M60 with the Z8000's but these were bigger boxes, like small mini's I still have 2 M20's that I play with every now and then. I like the PCOS operating system and I've played some with the CP/M-8000, that I got images from Al Kossow. These had to be reconstructed to work on the 5-1/4 inch drives but are fun to play with. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You?ll love Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507 From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 25 10:31:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 08:31:48 -0700 Subject: Floppy configurations on IBM PC 5150/5160 In-Reply-To: <20070525073718.skxvmezjmpeskg4g@webmail3.secure-wi.com> References: <20070525073718.skxvmezjmpeskg4g@webmail3.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <46569EF4.27778.2BFFC3D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 May 2007 at 7:37, mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > Normally I see these machines with two internal floppies, and nothing > else. On the 5160 I have here in the office I am about to add an > external floppy using the external connector on the floppy controller; > the machine has a single drive installed internally now. How does the > BIOS handle this situation? If I tell it that there are 2 drives will > it try to figure out that one is internal and one is external? Do I > need device driver help, or is this something the BIOS tries to > handle? Is there something on the controller card I am supposed to do > to tell it how the drives are connected/organized? No, the 5150 is somewhat simple-minded when it comes to floppies. There's nothing in the BIOS RAM area that identifies the exact position of drives installed. If you have only a single internal drive installed and one external drive, the BIOS will expect that you've specified 3 drives and you will receive a non-fatal error 601 (IIRC) when it comes to look for drive B:. If you're running a version of DOS later than about 3.2, you can get around this problem by setting the mobo switches to the number of internal drives you have, then use DRIVER.SYS to specify the external drives. A similar situation obtains for hard disks on the XT--the controller expects that you will have a drive 0 installed if you have a drive 1 installed--even though electrically, there's no requirement for it-- only that there should be proper termination on whatever the last drive on the cable is. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 25 10:50:14 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 09:50:14 -0600 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 25 May 2007 04:18:29 -0400. <46569BD5.3080005@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: In article <46569BD5.3080005 at dragonsweb.org>, "James B. DiGriz" writes: > I could use a vacation. If stricklin and/or anyone else strikes a deal > with this guy, I will volunteer to drive,load,'n'deliver for expenses > and negotiable pick of litter. I would join in on the deal if you drive back through Salt Lake City (its on your way! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 25 10:52:45 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 09:52:45 -0600 Subject: hey, a digest reader has an eBay feedback comment! In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 25 May 2007 06:05:37 +0100. <021501c79e8a$567a2770$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: In article <021501c79e8a$567a2770$0a01a8c0 at memoryalpha.org.uk>, "Ensor" writes: > Outside of a couple of non-paying bidders, that was the only time I've been > forced to leave negative feedback. But unfortunately, there are some real > aholes out there. :-( I've only left negative feedback once: for someone who *obviously* did not put any packing protection for the item before shipping it in a used cardboard box so that the item arrived on my doorstep as a smashed pile of plastic: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for downloa Legalize Adulthood! From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri May 25 11:06:48 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 09:06:48 -0700 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <397642.11777.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <397642.11777.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/22/07, steven stengel wrote: > > "Rawn's Buy & Sell Network" in Burnaby BC (Canada), > says he has a warehouse fill of old computers to > hopefully sell as a lot. > > Consists of mostly 80s and 90s systems, like Apple, > Macs, IBMs, Next, Commodore, Atari, Tandy, Hyperion, > etc. as well as tons of software. > I am amazed I never found it in my driving around Vancouver and its environs looking for surplus. I get up there for the fireworks at the end of July and will see if there is anything left. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 25 12:14:02 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 11:14:02 -0600 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 25 May 2007 09:06:48 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Paxton Hoag" writes: > I am amazed I never found it in my driving around Vancouver and its > environs looking for surplus. I get up there for the fireworks at the > end of July and will see if there is anything left. I'll chip in for any interesting terminals and/or graphics devices (by graphics device I don't mean ordinary microcomputers that can easily be had off ebay). Of course, the whole problem with the deal as currently stated is that you don't know what you're looking at. Some sort of specific inventory is needed before an intelligent decision beyond a gamble can be made. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 25 13:32:20 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 13:32:20 -0500 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi Message-ID: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> My old uVax II (in BA23 case) has been sitting around idle for too long and it's time to revive it or let it move on. Right now it's got a TK50 or TK70 which works (can boot the diagnostic tape) and a flake RD5x drive. After laughing at the prices the gougers on ebay want for those drives, maybe it's time to shift gears and just go SCSI. I think the qbus scsi card is the KZQSA, or are there others that will work? Will the uVax just recognize the card and any scsi drive attached to it, or will there be more configuration involved (particular slots, firmware changes, etc?) Anyone got one for sale? Alternately, if I stay with the MFM controller I have now, will any old MFM drive work, or must it be DEC branded (custom ROM on the drive, maybe?) Thanks in advance -j From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 25 14:04:22 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 12:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy configurations on IBM PC 5150/5160 In-Reply-To: <20070525073718.skxvmezjmpeskg4g@webmail3.secure-wi.com> References: <20070525073718.skxvmezjmpeskg4g@webmail3.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <20070525111143.V9350@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 25 May 2007 mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > The standard floppy controller can drive up to four floppies, two > internal and two external. And the motherboards of these machines > have dip switches that allow you to tell them how many drives are > connected. But those switches are just a simple count of drives, not > which chain the drives are connected to. > Normally I see these machines with two internal floppies, and nothing > else. On the 5160 I have here in the office I am about to add an > external floppy using the external connector on the floppy controller; > the machine has a single drive installed internally now. How does the > BIOS handle this situation? simplisticly > If I tell it that there are 2 drives will > it try to figure out that one is internal and one is external? NO > Do I need device driver help, NO > or is this something the BIOS tries to handle? NO > Is there something on the controller card I am supposed to do > to tell it how the drives are connected/organized? NO You have two choices. You can set the switches for three drives (two internal, one external). That will work fine, but, ... every time that you try to access drive B:, you will get a "drive not ready" You will lose out on the "phantom" B: drive that you have with only one floppy. ("COPY A:x B:x" prompts, "put the B: disk in the drive"; "put the A: disk in the drive", etc.) Your external drive will be C:, and your hard drive will be D: . That is how it is supposed to work, but much BRAIN-DEAD software is hardwired for C:. For example, to install MS-DOS 6.00, Microsoft says to install it on C: (your external floppy!), and then copy it to the hard disk ! or, you can set the switches for 1 drive, and run DOS 3.20 or higher, with "DEVICE = DRIVER.SYS /D:2" You will have A:, a phantom B:, your hard drive will be C:, and the external drive will be handled by a device driver, and be D: . Optionally, you can include a /F:x or /T:x/N:y to let DOS know which kind of drive it is (NO, you can not use arbitray values of x and y for oddball drives (/T:35)) You can change boot disks, without messing with switches when you connect/disconnect/change the external floppy. With EITHER method, if you access your external floppy through BIOS (INT13h), instead of through DOS, it will be drive #2 (internal floppies are #0, #1, external are #2, #3; hard drives are #80h, #81h) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 25 14:01:52 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 12:01:52 -0700 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale References: Message-ID: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> I'm about 12 miles away from this. If somebody gets it and can use some labour loading up I can wander over to help. To my interests, there's not much of interest there, but then I'm more into 70's-and-earlier stuff.. In dollar terms I would wonder how one does a cost recovery just on moving and storing it. > "Paxton Hoag" writes: > > > I am amazed I never found it in my driving around Vancouver and its > > environs looking for surplus. I get up there for the fireworks at the Before it was mentioned in this thread I had never heard of Rawn's; it doesn't have a high profile around here, IME. Going by the phone book there is no retail-level store-front. (And yes, over the years I've been to every second-hand/surplus/used-goods store in a 25-mile radius I could find.) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 25 14:10:26 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 20:10:26 +0100 Subject: Complete success, OS/8 is up and running :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25/5/07 02:13, "Charles" wrote: > I am pleased to report a complete success with my 8/A,VTserver via > 11/23+,RL02,OS-8 conglomeration. I think it's the *only* time that > any project (with that many places for possible screwups) has > worked for me on the first try :) > Congrats, Charles! I'll be going through a similar experience when I finally get my MINC down here instead of it being 250 miles away......pity I don't have a VT125 to use it as Ken intended..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 25 14:19:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 12:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <01d001c79e82$c1efbe00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <947463.23095.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > the the 68K been > >chosen (and it was a strong rumor, particularly > after the IBM 68K- > >based lab computer was announced before the > 5150), it might never > >have been as successful. Does anyone have one of those? The Lab computer that is... > I'd like to think that if the 68k had been chosen > we'd have had far more > advanced PCs far quicker (I'm thinking back to the > many 68k implementations > of UNIX amongst other things). But I do take your > point about the > availability of software, let's face it, the *ONLY* > reason I switched from > my Atari ST to the PC was software. > > Although....if we'd had 68k/UNIX based boxes on our > desktops instead of > 8086/DOS who's to say that there wouldn't have been > a similar explosion of > software? Well, needless to say, whatever IBM would have chosen would have been supported. The fact that a company like IBM got into the pc market is the reason there was such an explosion in usage and software. Presumably 68k software would have been much easier to write. But where then would the Macintosh be? Or the ST's, Amigas, Cats. Maybe they would be the pseudo-compatibles I'd be collecting today (already got some uh dem tho heh heh heh). ____________________________________________________________________________________Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 25 14:29:24 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 13:29:24 -0600 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 25 May 2007 12:01:52 -0700. <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article <465732A0.D1422A6 at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert writes: > I'm about 12 miles away from this. [...] Would you be willing to visit and take a more comprehensive set of detailed pictures? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri May 25 14:37:24 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 12:37:24 -0700 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> On 5/25/07, Jason T wrote: > My old uVax II (in BA23 case) has been sitting around idle for too > long and it's time to revive it or let it move on. Right now it's got > a TK50 or TK70 which works (can boot the diagnostic tape) and a flake > RD5x drive. After laughing at the prices the gougers on ebay want for > those drives, maybe it's time to shift gears and just go SCSI. > Q-bus SCSI cards aren't cheap from what I've seen on eBay. Another option you might consider is ESDI. ESDI drives are more expensive and smaller than SCSI drives (which are almost free), but Q-bus ESDI controllers are usually a lot cheaper than Q-bus SCSI controllers, and ESDI drives should be larger and cheaper than good working MFM drives. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 25 14:43:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 12:43:41 -0700 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <947463.23095.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <01d001c79e82$c1efbe00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <947463.23095.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4656D9FD.749.2CE66097@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 May 2007 at 12:19, Chris M wrote: > > --- Ensor wrote: > > > the the 68K been > > >chosen (and it was a strong rumor, particularly > > after the IBM 68K- > > >based lab computer was announced before the > > 5150), it might never > > >have been as successful. > > Does anyone have one of those? The Lab computer that > is... Scuse, please, but I wrote that. The IBM CS-9000. I've seen only one up for auction in the past few years. I've never seen the operating system, CSOS mentioned anywhere else in IBM's product line. Here's a little squib on the system: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/cs9000.html Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 25 14:45:34 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 12:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <401821.37521.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> if anyone cares *snifful* I'm Atari ST starved to this day. There seems to have been some of that stuff IIRC. What could be cool is for some people to make a list of what they want, and it could be placed in storage on this side of the border. I know that once I got out that way I'd be willing to ship stuff around. It won't be immediately, but in 5-7 weeks I'll be in the Seattle area. A long shot, but I just figured I'd mention it. ____________________________________________________________________________________Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 25 14:52:18 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 12:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <4656D9FD.749.2CE66097@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <830666.67524.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Scuse, please, but I wrote that. The IBM CS-9000. > > I've seen only one up for auction in the past few > years. I've never > seen the operating system, CSOS mentioned anywhere > else in IBM's > product line. Here's a little squib on the system: > > http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/cs9000.html woops. Apparently it only did mono graphics (got the review somewhere in an old Byte though). Curious what type of graphics chip it used... I want one ____________________________________________________________________________________Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 25 15:03:59 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 14:03:59 -0600 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 25 May 2007 12:45:34 -0700. <401821.37521.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <401821.37521.qm at web61022.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > if anyone cares *snifful* I'm Atari ST starved to this > day. There seems to have been some of that stuff IIRC. There did seem to be a pile of STs in the photos. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rcini at optonline.net Fri May 25 16:17:56 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 17:17:56 -0400 Subject: Bad MAK file help In-Reply-To: <200705250916.l4P9GOH1016610@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: Ok, it seems to work now, with the exception of a couple of errors in one of the source files (A2070, A2080). So I have a bit of debugging to do on the debugger :-) Thanks for the help. On 5/25/07 5:16 AM, "Brad Parker" wrote: > > "Richard A. Cini" wrote: >> >> # Executable >> db.exe: $(OBJ1) >> link @db.lnk > > put this target (db.exe) *before* the "# asm sources" obj targets. > > it's taking the first target as the default. > > you could also say "make db.exe" and it should build everything. > > I generally make the first target something like: > > all: db.exe > > and then the order does not matter. > > -brad Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 25 16:40:46 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 16:40:46 -0500 Subject: Free + shipping: IBM 4245 Printer manual Message-ID: <51ea77730705251440g381a8ed9ua1c5657ba51750ce@mail.gmail.com> "IBM 4245 Printer, Models D12 and D20 Information Manual" Second Edition (July 1986) Good condition; hole-punched on left side and stapled twice. Could be unstapled for automatic scanning. Sent for the cost of shipping from 60074. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri May 25 06:17:11 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 12:17:11 +0100 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: References: <1179996748.19871.3.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <1180014317.19871.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <200705241601.l4OG1Bc3016321@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1180091831.25290.3.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 12:19 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/24/07, Steve Shumaker wrote: > > Have you looked at something like Digikey.com? > > > > They list a bunch of pigtailed power connectors with ID and ODs > > specified. largest seems to be 2.5mm ID and 5.5mm OD. Page 409 of > > the online Digikey catalog. > > That is assuredly too small. I have plenty of 2.5mm ID plugs. This > is much larger. My local Maplin do 3.1mm x 6.5mm connectors - not as large as the JVC connectors Tony mentioned (I don't think - I could be wrong) but the same size as a Toshiba Libretto 70CT power connector. Their part number is FM47B, and they're 79p. If they won't send out just one mail me off-list and I'll get one and post it out to you. Gordon From bqt at softjar.se Fri May 25 12:59:53 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 19:59:53 +0200 Subject: Now I need some OS/8 experts... In-Reply-To: <200705251703.l4PH1k8x020785@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705251703.l4PH1k8x020785@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46572419.4070708@softjar.se> Charles skrev: > Now that OS/8 is running on my 8/A, RL02 system, I find I'm in > need of some more detailed help. Although I'm wading through the > 900+ pages of the "OS/8 Handbook" (and the Device Extensions > document which at least addresses RL01's), I'm having a problem > adding device handlers as follows. > > When I built the OS/8 image, it looks like I added only one RL02 > partition (here is the current BUILD printout): > >> sim> bo rl >> >> .SET SYS NOINIT >> >> .RUN SYS BUILD >> >> $PR >> >> BAT : *BAT >> KL8E: *TTY >> LPSV: *LPT >> RK05: *RKA0 *RKB0 *RKA1 *RKB1 RKA2 RKB2 RKA3 RKB3 >> RX02: *RXA0 *RXA1 >> TD8A: *DTA0 *DTA1 >> R2SY: *SYS *R20A >> >> DSK=R2SY:R20A >> $ > > Doing a DIR shows "118 Files in 2517 Blocks - 1515 Free Blocks", > or ~4000 total blocks on the disk, which is also consistent with > one RL02 partition (A=40%,B=40%,C=20%) of the total 10000 free > blocks. > > The RKB0: Diagnostic Pack has several handlers including: > RL2SY.BH (which is what I am using), and also RL20.BH, RL21.BH, > and RL2E.BH (not sure what that one is). > > But any attempt to LOAD RKB0:RL20.BH (for example) causes SIMH to > stop with a "HALT instruction, PC: 20100 (ISZ 122)" message. I > tried removing R2SY: entirely (after setting SYS to RKA0:) and > still it won't work when trying to install other RL handlers. > > Also when reloading it will only allow n=1 (platter) which I > suppose is correct. This may be why I only have one partition. I > did this over a year ago and don't remember all the details. > ANY ideas how to install the next partitions (R20B and C)? > > Also, since I am planning on adding a second RL02 drive, I will > need (I think) R21A, B, C to appear in the active list. Is it even > possible to add a second RL02 under OS/8? > > The C partitions aren't really necessary and are slow. I doubt I > will ever get close to filling up even the A and B's (8 Mb per > pack).... They way you talk about this makes it sound like you're thinking of RL01 drives here. Are you aware of the fact that the RL02 will appear as five drives to OS/8? RLnA to RLnE? Apart from that, I can't help you at the moment. My PDP8 systems are all offline, and have been for a couple of years now. Although I have a real 8/A with RL02 drives, which do work. Too long for my memory to be fresh on this one. Build have always been a bit magical... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Fri May 25 17:57:49 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 23:57:49 +0100 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <11c909eb0705251557g3b042e8cu9e72c68778bb5d2f@mail.gmail.com> On 25/05/07, Jason T wrote: > > My old uVax II (in BA23 case) has been sitting around idle for too > long and it's time to revive it or let it move on. Right now it's got > a TK50 or TK70 which works (can boot the diagnostic tape) and a flake > RD5x drive. After laughing at the prices the gougers on ebay want for > those drives, maybe it's time to shift gears and just go SCSI. > > I think the qbus scsi card is the KZQSA, or are there others that will > work? I've been considering the same but the expense of qbus scsi has so far put me off. My memory of KZQSA cards they're quite limited in what you can do, eg speed and number of drives. Sometime in the early nineties the first UNIX box I ever saw was a DECsystem 5500 (Mips cpu with qbus, Ultrix 4 maybe) with all of it's disk in an external box hanging off a KZQSA. When we called support about the numerous crashes DEC asked why we were running an unsupported configuration. Of course our answer was - 'coz you lot sold it to us like that' :) Suffice to say a patch was forthcoming, but as to whether it'll work with VMS I've no idea, no doubt others list members can shed more light. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri May 25 18:07:38 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 16:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vax 11/750 power supply questions Message-ID: <312149.37367.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, thanks to the advice of a knowledgeable Lowe's employee and a sheet of 3/4" plywood, I was able to move my Vax 11/750, by myself, from the garage into the basement. Initially, when I first unloaded the Vax from the van, I removed the power supplies to make the machine lighter. I labeled the wires with masking tape, so as to get everything back correctly. I have cleaned and reassembled the power supply section save for one connector. It's a 20 pin ribbon cable that plugs into the top of the power controller, coming from the 2.5v PSU. This connector is not keyed, and I don't know which direction it should go - unfortunately the way the cable is folded it could really go either way. So, those of you that own a Vax 11/750 - which side should be pin 1? Also, on each power supply, there is a three position toggle switch - Lo, Norm and Hi. What is this for? Similarly, I currently have the battery backup unit removed. It's obviously going to be totally shot - the sticker indicates the batteries were last changed in 1984. This isn't needed for the machine to work, correct? I'm not talking about the Time Of Year battery, I'm talking about the box mounted on the front left side, it has a couple lead acid battery packs in it - not enough to run the computer, I would think - did this just keep the memory alive? What's the pinout of the console port? Anything special, or should a null modem cable be all I need to connect a terminal? Thanks! -Ian From rtellason at verizon.net Fri May 25 18:20:11 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 19:20:11 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 question In-Reply-To: <003201c79e79$28559fc0$0200000a@nitrogen> References: <003201c79e79$28559fc0$0200000a@nitrogen> Message-ID: <200705251920.12281.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 24 May 2007 23:02, Bill Machacek wrote: > I was just able to pick up 2 Commodore 64 units. One has monitor (1701) > and disk drive (1541) and works fine. The other Commodore (computer > portion only) has the Power light come on, but that's about it. It does > not even cause the monitor screen to be active. My question is, is there > possibly a simple solution as to why the C64 is not working? Maybe, maybe not. This was *the* most common symptom back when I was making a living fixing those units... > I have not opened it up yet, and I'm not a real "techie", but I could do > some simple internal checks if I knew what to look for. Thanks for any help > anyone may be able to give me. First thing I'd check is the power supplies. The regulators internal to tbe unit provide +5 and +12 for the video section and SID only, the rest of the unit runs off the +5 coming out of the "brick" power supply. Next thing I'd check is to see if any of the RAM (usually 8 of them) are running warm. Touching them with your finger works but be warned that I've had some of them run so hot I ended up making a small thermistor probe to use instead. :-) Following that, look for the PLA chip. This will be marked either 82S100 or 906114-01 (I think) and is one of the only two 28-pin parts in there, the other one being the 6581 or 8580 SID chip. Starting at the end opposite the notch, pin 14 is ground, and 12, 13, 15, 16, and 17 are various select lines for different parts of the machine. These should be either at a high level or pulsing, never low, which shows a bad chip (and does anyone know of a source for these?). The other thing that can be checked with a scope or logic probe is the data bus, easiest by hitting pin 2 of each RAM chip, sometimes one will get stuck low and that'll do it too. Lots and lots of other stuff in there will cause this symptom, or a problem with data or address lines. I got to the point where I'd pull chips out and put sockets in where they were, allowing me to try the chip in a test board and put it back if it worked okay or replace it if not. Got lots of chips here too, if anybody needs some. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri May 25 18:25:25 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 19:25:25 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 question In-Reply-To: <200705250309.l4P39X32013262@floodgap.com> References: <200705250309.l4P39X32013262@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200705251925.25742.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 24 May 2007 23:09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Try swapping this chip between the two units and see if it changes things, > assuming the power supply is known to be good. Not necessarily a good assumption, and I'd check the PS _first_ as that's often the cause of a lot of problems, particularly RAM failure. I even went so far as to build myself a little load box, with meter test points and a couple of switches to select load on-off and which (ac or dc) the meter was reading, and still have it around here someplace. That thing would get downright toasty after the load was on for a bit, and would show up supplies that would only fail after they warmed up. I'll add too that the supplies with vents in them were repairable, and I ended up replacing the regulator in a few of them. The other kind were epoxy-potted, and otherwise useless though I did consider the idea of a modern art sculpture on their lawn in West Chester at one point. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 25 18:33:48 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 16:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64 question In-Reply-To: <200705251925.25742.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "May 25, 7 07:25:25 pm" Message-ID: <200705252333.l4PNXm9i029984@floodgap.com> > > Try swapping this chip between the two units and see if it changes things, > > assuming the power supply is known to be good. > > Not necessarily a good assumption, and I'd check the PS _first_ as that's > often the cause of a lot of problems, particularly RAM failure. Yes. In my original message I suggested that was first in things to check, above the section you quoted. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Payne ---------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 25 18:18:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 00:18:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy configurations on IBM PC 5150/5160 In-Reply-To: <20070525073718.skxvmezjmpeskg4g@webmail3.secure-wi.com> from "mbbrutman-cctalk@brutman.com" at May 25, 7 07:37:18 am Message-ID: > > > The standard floppy controller can drive up to four floppies, two > internal and two external. And the motherboards of these machines > have dip switches that allow you to tell them how many drives are > connected. But those switches are just a simple count of drives, not > which chain the drives are connected to. > > Normally I see these machines with two internal floppies, and nothing > else. On the 5160 I have here in the office I am about to add an > external floppy using the external connector on the floppy controller; > the machine has a single drive installed internally now. How does the > BIOS handle this situation? If I tell it that there are 2 drives will > it try to figure out that one is internal and one is external? Do I > need device driver help, or is this something the BIOS tries to > handle? Is there something on the controller card I am supposed to do > to tell it how the drives are connected/organized? The BIAS is, as usual, brain-dead. It assumes you'll fit both internal drives before adding external ones. So if you set it for 2 or more drives and only have one intenral drive, it'll give an error at boot-up Moreover, if you have 3 or 4 drives, they will be asseigned the letters A: B: C; (and D:) by MS-DOS, putting the first hard disk partition at E:. A _very_ large number of installation programs get confused by this. My suggestion is to set the DIP switches to say you have one floppy drive. And then (asuming you're running a late-enough MS-DOS) to use DRIVER.SYS to operate the external drives. If you do that, the internal drive will be A: _and B: (as it would be on a single-drive machine), your hard dirve partitions will start at C:, and your exernal drive(s) will have letters assigned after the last hard drive partition. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 25 18:02:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 00:02:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: C.Itoh Keyboard repair (was CiTOH terminals (was Re: Well, now I've In-Reply-To: <46565685.3080505@drexel.edu> from "Jonathan Gevaryahu" at May 24, 7 11:22:45 pm Message-ID: > > I've actually fixed one of the CIT-220+ keyboards. It's *not* a job for the > faint of heart. It requires desoldering all 130-odd keys (this REQUIRES > a GOOD > $250 desoldering iron, lacking this I paid someone $60 to do it for me), Wh yis it significantly harder than on other keyboards? I've desoldered complete keyboard assemblies from their PCBs using a Weller TCP iron and a normal solder sucker. For keyboards where there are separate keyswitches in a metal frame, I find it easiest to desolder one switch at a time and unclip it from the frame. And at the end to unscrew the PCB from the frame. When putting it back together, I crew the PCB and frame together first, then insert the switches one at a time and solder them. It's a lot easier to get 2 pins into their holse than 200 pins :-) > IBM model M clicky keyboard used. I also strongly suspect the real DEC > vt-220 > and vt-330 used better technology but I've never seen a real DEC one. :( ) The LK201 (DEC VT220 etc keyboard) is a disgusting design!. It's uses mebmrane contacts. There's a metal base plate, the membrane layers on top of that, then a rubber sheet, then metal spring leaves under each key, and finally plasic housings that hold the keys themselves. The whole lot is held together by pegs on the housings going down through all the other parts and being heat stakced on the bottom You can remove the keys fairly easilrt (twist them slightly to frre the locking barbs. But you cannot dismantle the rest of the assembly and have any hope of getting it back together. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 25 18:12:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 00:12:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: <1180084738.25290.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 25, 7 10:18:57 am Message-ID: > > JVC used a 3.xxx mm diameter pin coaxial power connector on some of their > > portable VCR stuff. I have a portable Umatic machine that takes a > > lead-acid battey with suck a plug on the cable. I know I bought a > > suitable connector from Maplin (so I could make up my own battery packs), > > but it has probably been disocntinued by now :-( > > I'm surprised you didn't do something clever with brass tubing and > heatshrink ;-) These days I probsbly would grab some brass rod, some plastic rod, and start turning :-) Although I'd make darn sure I couldn't get the right part first. Since the OP didn't seem to have any way to measuer the centre pin, I assumed he didn't haev a lathe either. As an OT aside, as many of you know I like old cameras. I hav a book entitled 'All you need to know about the design and repair of Russian cameras' nad it's actualyl very good, not just for the Russian models, but also for the Leicas and Contaxes that osme of them were based on. Anyway, somoe of the models in that book didn't have flash synchronisation contacts, and there are details given to add this feature. One problem is getting the little 3mm coxial socket for the flush gun to plug into, they are not used outside the camera industry, and are essentially unobtainable. This book gives instructions to make one. As in 'Start with a lenght of bress rod, turn down one end to for , cut an M6 thread here, and so on... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 25 17:48:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 23:48:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Complete success, OS/8 is up and running :) In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at May 24, 7 08:13:30 pm Message-ID: > But when I put the pack in the 8/A's RL02, for some reason it > wouldn't go Ready initially. After powering down the system and > drive, removing the pack, reinserting, etc. then it did light the > Ready light. No weird noises either. That was a relief. The top cover interlock microwitch (no the 'brush drive assembly', even though on most RL02s the brushes have been removed, the did more harm than good) can be a bit touchy on these drives. It detects that the cover is closed and that there's a pack cover in place (upside-down on top of the pack). Probably it didn't trup the first time you put the back in, when you re-iserted it, and re-cloxsed the cover, it worked. You might want to look at this, tweak the adjustments, etc. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 25 19:01:58 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 17:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64 question In-Reply-To: <003201c79e79$28559fc0$0200000a@nitrogen> Message-ID: <688273.31359.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> so am I to understand that if the power is ok, and the video chip/circuit is ok, you still won't get anything on the monitor (not even a flicker) due to a problem somewhere else on the board? Assuming there's a definite answer to that, I'd like to throw this one at ya Roy: everything *works* to the point where there is a video output (bright screen w/border) but no text at all, what normally would be displayed at power up. Don't mean to take attention away from your problem Bill. Just trying myself to get a better understanding of this stuff. --- Bill Machacek wrote: > I was just able to pick up 2 Commodore 64 units. > One has monitor (1701) and > disk drive (1541) and works fine. The other > Commodore (computer portion > only) has the Power light come on, but that's about > it. It does not even > cause the monitor screen to be active. My question > is, is there possibly a > simple solution as to why the C64 is not working? I > have not opened it up > yet, and I'm not a real "techie", but I could do > some simple internal checks > if I knew what to look for. Thanks for any help > anyone may be able to give > me. > > Bill Machacek > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From bear at typewritten.org Fri May 25 19:55:16 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 17:55:16 -0700 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> References: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <075D91BF-4792-427E-B71F-3B3FDC2AC8FE@typewritten.org> On May 25, 2007, at 12:01 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'm about 12 miles away from this. If somebody gets it and can use > some labour loading up I can wander over to help. I'm planning on heading up there Monday to turn over some rocks and see what runs out. Depending on what happens I may or may not be back to haul some or all away. > In dollar terms I would wonder how one does a cost recovery just on > moving and storing it. That's going to be the big problem. If it comes down to it and he expects some thousands of dollars, I'm going to have to walk away no matter how interested I am in some of the stuff. With a large, unfocused collection like this where there has been little to no obvious upfront effort to cull uninteresting or non- useful items, the indirect costs beyond simple acquisition become huge very quickly. Consider one possible highly optimistic outcome: the collection is purchased for $5000. 5% of it is of interest and worth keeping. This leaves 950 machines which must be disposed of. 35% of those can be sold to other listmembers or on eBay, with average closing values of $25 each (a few worth much more, most worth less). That's a theoretical maximum return of $8325, minus upfront costs of $5000... a net of roughly $3000. But, it takes you four months to sell them, with storage costing $600 per month, and you have to pay to dispose of all the stuff you couldn't sell. Maybe you break even, which would be the most realistic outcome of all the optimistic ones possible. What happens if you can't sell as much of the stuff as you think you can, or for not as much money, and it takes you longer to do it? Collectors, considered as an entire population, can be fickle. I've been burned way too many times on overly optimistic back-of-the- envelope calculations to be anything other than tremendously cautious about this opportunity. It's how you wind up with stuff you can't shift for love or money taking up dozens of valuable square feet of storage for years, like the pile of AlphaServer 4100s and HP C-class (180s, 200s, 240s, and 360s) machines I wound up with a couple years ago which suddenly nobody wanted at any price... I guess that turned into a tiny little rant, there. Sorry about that. ok bear From useddec at gmail.com Fri May 25 20:10:18 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 20:10:18 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 MAINDEC Listing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <624966d60705251810p32b240dfo58b465d039ad82d4@mail.gmail.com> I might have some on microfiche if they would work. It might take some digging. Paul On 5/24/07, O. Sharp wrote: > > > Hey, all: > > Does someone have, or know of, an online PDF of DEC's "PDP-12 Tape Control > Test" (parts 1 and 2) MAINDEC manuals? > > I've got a PDP-12 which I've gradually been breathing the life back into, > and so far it's gone very well... but then I got to the LINCtape control > and drives, which are acting like they're _trying_ to do useful things but > aren't, and frankly I need to learn more to figure out what the heck is > going on in there. MAINDEC listings are usually pretty helpful for that. > :) > > Thanks! > > -O.- > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri May 25 20:25:34 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 18:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 Message-ID: <881032.54403.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Now that the Vax is in the basement, I've been cleaning and checking it out, trying to address what problems I can. First and foremost, there is no key. But, I found that I could pop out the control panel from behind, and that contains the actual turn switch - the key is just the knob that turns the rotary switch. My bright idea was to simply remove the key mechanism for the moment, so that I could turn the machine between modes with a modified television knob or something. Simple - just remove a large hex nut collar from the back, and slide it out. Unfortunately, as it slid out, it ever so slightly caught the edge of the plastic overlay for the control panel, and left a little light colored mark around the bottom of the hole where the overlay isn't sticking to the back plastic, and has air under it. Nothing that affects the functionality of the machine of course, but it ticks me off, since I caused it. I can't think of a way to fix it without causing more damage, however, so I'll just have to live with it. Now that I can switch the machine on (once I get confirmation on the orientation of the power controller connector, see previous post), I should soon be able to test run it. One thing that needs to be addressed first, is that this machine must have originally been fitted with an external unibus expansion box - there is a large flat white cable inside, connected to a paddle board on the last Unibus slot. This cable was cut with scissors or something where it exits the cabinet. I have removed this, but I will need to install a Unibus terminator, correct? I should be able to steal the terminator out of my 11/84 for now - are they the same, or was the Vax Unibus a little different? -Ian From useddec at gmail.com Fri May 25 20:26:25 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 20:26:25 -0500 Subject: Complete success, OS/8 is up and running :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <624966d60705251826j7884fa3ai4ccf1d9fc701ba7a@mail.gmail.com> I should have a VT125 left. I think I have the entire family except the VT103. Feel free to contact me off list if you are interested. Paul On 5/25/07, Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 25/5/07 02:13, "Charles" wrote: > > > I am pleased to report a complete success with my 8/A,VTserver via > > 11/23+,RL02,OS-8 conglomeration. I think it's the *only* time that > > any project (with that many places for possible screwups) has > > worked for me on the first try :) > > > > Congrats, Charles! I'll be going through a similar experience when I > finally > get my MINC down here instead of it being 250 miles away......pity I don't > have a VT125 to use it as Ken intended..... > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 25 20:30:50 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 18:30:50 -0700 Subject: pdp-12 diagnostic scans Message-ID: <46578DCA.8040607@bitsavers.org> I have a large portion of the pdp-12 diags scanned. I'll try to get the tape diags up on bitsavers tonight. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 25 20:39:10 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 21:39:10 -0400 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale References: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> <075D91BF-4792-427E-B71F-3B3FDC2AC8FE@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <007101c79f36$a8a144a0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "r.stricklin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 8:55 PM Subject: Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale > I've been burned way too many times on overly optimistic back-of-the- > envelope calculations to be anything other than tremendously cautious > about this opportunity. It's how you wind up with stuff you can't > shift for love or money taking up dozens of valuable square feet of > storage for years, like the pile of AlphaServer 4100s and HP C-class > (180s, 200s, 240s, and 360s) machines I wound up with a couple years > ago which suddenly nobody wanted at any price... > > I guess that turned into a tiny little rant, there. Sorry about that. > > ok > bear > Unless you have a few people interested in different categories of machines and are fairly local to the haul I don't see the point in snagging it (unless you sell on ebay for a living). Even if you have the space to store it (large basement, shop etc), and can actually sell the ones you do not want you are still talking a large part of your life (for a decent period) shifting machines you could care less about. I pass on free (or close to it) equipment I don't collect just because I don't want the hassle of having to sell it (even if I could make a profit). Doing that just takes time away from what I want to do. If you are only interested in a few machines wait around until the guy gets desperate to get rid off them any way he can and buy what you want. If he won't sell individually then scout around the area for recyclers and tell them what you are looking for since the items will eventually end up there for disposal anyway. I am sure the guy has looked into locals who would want them before looking farther away. TZ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri May 25 22:09:31 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 21:09:31 -0600 Subject: Floppy configurations on IBM PC 5150/5160 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4657A4EB.8030904@brutman.com> And that is how it wound up. I left the dip switches on the motherboard set to one drive and used DRIVER.SYS to create a drive letter for the external drive. For some strange reason, the IBM 4865 external drive unit that I am using showed up as drive number 3, not 2. (Counting from zero, of course.) I wonder if there is a twist in the internal cabling, or the drive select jumper is non-standard on this one. No problem it works just fine. The XT in general is a beautiful machine: 512K Original 10MB hard disk Original IBM Monochrome/Printer adapter and 5151 Monochrome monitor VGA card, driving a flat panel display that it shares 3COM 3C503 One internal floppy (full height), one IBM 4865 external floppy Parallel port Zip disk I've got this sitting where I work (Big Blue) next to my regular systems in my office. You'd be surprised at how many people don't recognize what it is, or how old it is. Mike Tony Duell wrote: > The BIAS is, as usual, brain-dead. It assumes you'll fit both internal > drives before adding external ones. So if you set it for 2 or more drives > and only have one intenral drive, it'll give an error at boot-up > > Moreover, if you have 3 or 4 drives, they will be asseigned the letters > A: B: C; (and D:) by MS-DOS, putting the first hard disk partition at E:. > A _very_ large number of installation programs get confused by this. > > My suggestion is to set the DIP switches to say you have one floppy > drive. And then (asuming you're running a late-enough MS-DOS) to use > DRIVER.SYS to operate the external drives. If you do that, the internal > drive will be A: _and B: (as it would be on a single-drive machine), your > hard dirve partitions will start at C:, and your exernal drive(s) will > have letters assigned after the last hard drive partition. > > -tony > > From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri May 25 21:40:14 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 19:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for datasheet In-Reply-To: <200705260116.l4Q1F3gZ027701@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <188807.56443.qm@web50505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I can't find a datasheet for the Texas Instruments SN74ACT8832AGB 32bit Bit-Slice Processor anywhere on-line and virtually no information about it. I'd appreciate it if anyone with information about it or access to a datasheet on it would let me know. Best regards, Bill B. ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 25 21:40:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 19:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy configurations on IBM PC 5150/5160 In-Reply-To: <4657A4EB.8030904@brutman.com> References: <4657A4EB.8030904@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20070525193916.U30959@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 25 May 2007, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > For some strange reason, the IBM 4865 external drive unit that I am > using showed up as drive number 3, not 2. (Counting from zero, of > course.) I wonder if there is a twist in the internal cabling, or the > drive select jumper is non-standard on this one. No problem it works > just fine. a LACK OF A TWIST will do that From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri May 25 21:55:26 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 22:55:26 -0400 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <881032.54403.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <881032.54403.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200705252255.26369.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 25 May 2007 21:25, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Now that I can switch the machine on (once I get > confirmation on the orientation of the power > controller connector, see previous post), I should > soon be able to test run it. One thing that needs to > be addressed first, is that this machine must have > originally been fitted with an external unibus > expansion box - there is a large flat white cable > inside, connected to a paddle board on the last Unibus > slot. This cable was cut with scissors or something > where it exits the cabinet. I have removed this, but I > will need to install a Unibus terminator, correct? I > should be able to steal the terminator out of my 11/84 > for now - are they the same, or was the Vax Unibus a > little different? Nope, a UNIBUS terminator is a UNIBUS terminator for the most part. The only difference between terminators really is whether or not they have boot roms on them (which an 11/84 terminator shouldn't have, and the vax doesn't need/can't use). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri May 25 21:55:20 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 22:55:20 -0400 Subject: Vax 11/750 power supply questions In-Reply-To: <312149.37367.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <312149.37367.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200705252255.20687.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 25 May 2007 19:07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > It's a 20 pin ribbon cable that > plugs into the top of the power controller, coming > from the 2.5v PSU. This connector is not keyed, and I > don't know which direction it should go - > unfortunately the way the cable is folded it could > really go either way. So, those of you that own a Vax > 11/750 - which side should be pin 1? The red stripe on the cable should go to the left side when looking at it from the back side. > Also, on each power supply, there is a three position > toggle switch - Lo, Norm and Hi. What is this for? I believe it's to set the input voltage range. > Similarly, I currently have the battery backup unit > removed. It's obviously going to be totally shot - the > sticker indicates the batteries were last changed in > 1984. This isn't needed for the machine to work, > correct? I'm not talking about the Time Of Year > battery, I'm talking about the box mounted on the > front left side, it has a couple lead acid battery > packs in it - not enough to run the computer, I would > think - did this just keep the memory alive? Right, it's just to keep the memory alive during short power outages. > What's the pinout of the console port? Anything > special, or should a null modem cable be all I need to > connect a terminal? It's just a standard RS-232 connector, wired as DTE. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri May 25 22:07:06 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 23:07:06 -0400 Subject: Punch card file drawers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200705260307.l4Q37DYJ022720@keith.ezwind.net> A while back, Someone here was looking for punch card file cabnets and there was several metos'. I have located 3 Standard 4 foot, 10highx2wide file cabinets. 2 Gray and one Orange/Red. They are here in Columbus Ohio. I will be looking into shipping options next week for those who are interested. I have seen the packing and shipping subject raised here numerious times in the past, and am open to current comments and suggestions. I will take my portable scale over next week and get their measurements and a weight. Over the next few months I will be assisting in shutting down and parting out a small Data Services Company here in Columbus. A complete running and I believe still on maint-contract. IBM 4331-2 cpu with 3803 with 4 3420 tape drives 3830 with 8 3350 disk drives and just about every document ever produced for or about this system. There is an IBM Powerserver 370 with CD, DAT tape, and front loading 9 track, and monitor, with a lot of doc and a a stack of CD's including a bunch of AIX disks. There is a large Tartan Pluss data entry controller with several racks of Z80 single board computers each with an RS232 port on each with about 8 data entry keypunch stations. There are two complete systems here one running live and the other is a running backup. Any interested parties feel free to contact me directly, I have a few pictures on my phone from todays quick walk through and will get more next week when I get a chance to inventory things in more detail. The system is not due to be powered down until later in July, But the much of the other Stuff can and will go on eBay over the next few weeks as it is photoed, written up, and pugged into Auction Wizard. The other stuff includes but is not limited to: A complete working 129 80col punch that looks to be in very good condition. A small amount of System360 and unit record documentation, including a desk top burster, and rig to remove the carbon from 2 part forms and a bunch of other "stuff".... To those of us here in the good old USA, have a happy, long weekend ! Bob Bradlee. Bob at Bradlee.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 25 22:15:50 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 20:15:50 -0700 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:37 PM -0700 5/25/07, Glen Slick wrote: >Q-bus SCSI cards aren't cheap from what I've seen on eBay. Another >option you might consider is ESDI. ESDI drives are more expensive and >smaller than SCSI drives (which are almost free), but Q-bus ESDI >controllers are usually a lot cheaper than Q-bus SCSI controllers, and >ESDI drives should be larger and cheaper than good working MFM drives. I've only used them on my PDP-11, and not the VAX (they will work in a VAX), however, I found the Webster WQESD/04 boards to be a dream. In fact I wish my SCSI boards were as nice. Just the SCSI board alone will likely run you more than an ESDI controller, and ESDI drives unless you get lucky. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri May 25 23:19:40 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 05:19:40 +0100 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Q-bus SCSI cards aren't cheap from what I've seen on eBay.... I've never seen one on eBay, not that I've looked too hard, but how much do they go for on there? The last time I looked at getting a Q-Bus SCSI card was about 8 or 9 years ago, at that time the DEC dealers over here (second hand dealers BTW) wanted ?500 minimum! TTFN - Pete. From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 25 23:38:00 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 23:38:00 -0500 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> On 5/25/07, Ensor wrote: > I've never seen one on eBay, not that I've looked too hard, but how much do > they go for on there? This one is perpetually listed at $100 http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-VAX-MicroVAX-SCSI-Module-KZQSA_W0QQitemZ9734857775QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1479QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem Provided I can confirm that it will work with my uVax II and some obtainable drive, I'd pay maybe half that for it :) From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 26 00:29:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 22:29:28 -0700 Subject: OT: Sun online game Message-ID: <46576348.17324.2EFEA557@cclist.sydex.com> Part of the spam that hit my inbox is a link to this Sun Micro online game: http://howmachineswork.com/sun/templeofthesun/?source=outsert There are cash prizes and some downloads related to Solaris and Sun Studio here also. Have fun--games are not my cup o' tea. Cheers, Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat May 26 00:33:41 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 22:33:41 -0700 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90705252233u5263128eyee65bff21f7cb77a@mail.gmail.com> On 5/25/07, Jason T wrote: > > This one is perpetually listed at $100 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-VAX-MicroVAX-SCSI-Module-KZQSA_W0QQitemZ9734857775QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1479QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem > > Provided I can confirm that it will work with my uVax II and some > obtainable drive, I'd pay maybe half that for it :) > I have no idea if a M5976-A KZQSA works as a general SCSI disk controller in a MicroVax-II system. At a minimum you would have to hack the S-Box brackets to fit it into a BA23. Anyone have experience doing that? A more desirable from what I have seen "CMD CQD" (search for that) controller on eBay typically sells for around the $200 range when not listed by the crazy high price resellers. In comparison, a Q-bus ESDI controller such as an Emulex QD21 or Dilog DQ696 might go for around the $20-$30 range on eBay, and a 300MB ESDI drive about the same. (Other people might have different observations on current prices...) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 26 00:43:24 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 22:43:24 -0700 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:38 PM -0500 5/25/07, Jason T wrote: >On 5/25/07, Ensor wrote: >>I've never seen one on eBay, not that I've looked too hard, but how much do >>they go for on there? > >This one is perpetually listed at $100 > >http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-VAX-MicroVAX-SCSI-Module-KZQSA_W0QQitemZ9734857775QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1479QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem > >Provided I can confirm that it will work with my uVax II and some >obtainable drive, I'd pay maybe half that for it :) Well, for anything other than a KZQSA, I'd disagree, but for the KZQSA I'm not sure the KZQSA has much value left in it. Maybe you should just look at getting a VAXstation 3100/20 or a similar system, they should be cheap, they use SCSI. As long as you want to run VMS you can use the MVII as a satellite node to the 3100. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_9254.html If you can find a decent Q-Bus or Unibus SCSI controller for $50 or less, the odds are it will only work with tape drives. The other alternative is to start keeping your eye out for complete systems. Remember Q-Bus SCSI controllers have *REAL* commercial value. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 26 00:58:49 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 22:58:49 -0700 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90705252233u5263128eyee65bff21f7cb77a@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705252233u5263128eyee65bff21f7cb77a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:33 PM -0700 5/25/07, Glen Slick wrote: >A more desirable from what I have seen "CMD CQD" (search for that) >controller on eBay typically sells for around the $200 range when not >listed by the crazy high price resellers. I just might have to start keeping my eye out for one then. I'd love a nice CMD CQD-220/TM for my main PDP-11, and that would free up a Viking QDT for a VAX. I just did a search and everything that turned up was listed by dealers in their eBay stores, at least the first half seemed to be reasonably priced, and without knowing more I can't say that even that $1132.28 one isn't a decent price. BTW, it is worth noting that some boards are tape only, some are disk only, and the more valuable ones do both disk and tape. Another thing to be aware of is that the firmware version will effect what devices the board can talk to. For example to use a CD-ROM you need a fairly new firmware on a Viking QDT. >In comparison, a Q-bus ESDI controller such as an Emulex QD21 or Dilog >DQ696 might go for around the $20-$30 range on eBay, and a 300MB ESDI >drive about the same. > >(Other people might have different observations on current prices...) The downside of an ESDI drive is that shipping might just cost more than the drive itself. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 26 03:36:59 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 01:36:59 -0700 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale References: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> <075D91BF-4792-427E-B71F-3B3FDC2AC8FE@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <4657F1AE.6D5D4C23@cs.ubc.ca> "r.stricklin" wrote: > > > In dollar terms I would wonder how one does a cost recovery just on > > moving and storing it. > > That's going to be the big problem. If it comes down to it and he > expects some thousands of dollars, I'm going to have to walk away no > matter how interested I am in some of the stuff. > > With a large, unfocused collection like this where there has been > little to no obvious upfront effort to cull uninteresting or non- > useful items, the indirect costs beyond simple acquisition become > huge very quickly. > [snip] I quite agree, frankly I think the guy may be lucky to get somebody just to empty his warehouse for free. There may be something in there each of us would like and would pay a couple bucks for, but it's a lot of work/gamble to get the multiples of a couple of bucks to make it worthwhile, or unless it's something one likes to do. Situations like this tend not to be a good match between the seller and pool of buyers. - - - ..Looking at the photo of all the old Macs stacked up reminds me of the local used-Mac store which years ago started using an original/classic Mac as a doorstop. Every day (weather considered) they prop the front door open with one. It's the right size and weight and a convenient built-in handle too. Poor thing: how far it's fallen from the lofty heights of 1984. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 26 03:38:05 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 01:38:05 -0700 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale References: Message-ID: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > Would you be willing to visit and take a more comprehensive set of > detailed pictures? I would if I had a digital camera. Looks like bear has it covered anyways. I've been wanting to get a digital camera but have to work up the enthusiasm to brave the shopping malls. Which reminds me I have a question for camera buffs. If I can justify asking this here, the main motivation for getting a camera is taking pictures of old equipment for addition to web pages. I'm not into photography in a big way, in my life I've probably taken more photos for tourists ("take photo please, just press button") than I have for myself. My main concern for taking close-up (oblique, not just plan view) photos of equipment is depth-of-focus. I know/figure it's mainly a function of aperture size (smaller --> longer depth-of-focus) and (optical) zoom (to minimize the ratio of focus-depth to lens-to-object distance). (And smaller aperture means less light which requires longer exposure.) If I have the above principles about right, the practical question(s) are: Is your typical $200 / 3*-optical-zoom / 5-MPixel camera good for this or does one have to go to something higher end with a special lens, etc.? It's subjective as to what's adequate of course, but I'd be interested in opinions. Is there a spec regarding the aperture range that I should be looking for? By way of example, I like this photo: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/markusToshibaBC1624_diode.jpg although I guess one could say the depth of focus is not really that great (?). (It's the internals of a late-60s nixie desktop calculator (the diode farm is discrete logic gates, of course). It was sent to me by a fellow calculator collector a few years ago but I don't know what camera equipment was used.) From btt at hughes.net Fri May 25 20:01:02 2007 From: btt at hughes.net (Brian) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 21:01:02 -0400 Subject: SVD Update Message-ID: <2F8249E2D4DB469FBA5BE9701C28770B@BrianPC> Hello, I just built one of these devices. It appears to work, but I cannot write any information to the virtual disk on an apple //e. I'm guessing thats because I need the version 2.4 of the firmware. Any idea where I can get this, or what could be wrong? Thanks, Brian Ties From nanobot at verizon.net Fri May 25 22:00:31 2007 From: nanobot at verizon.net (Scott Klinedinst) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 23:00:31 -0400 Subject: VCP200 chip available Message-ID: <000501c79f42$0652b510$2f01a8c0@tobor> Hello, I think it is too late since this message looks old, But do you still have the VCP200 chip ? I thought I would ask. Thanks Scott From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat May 26 07:04:01 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 08:04:01 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20070526120401.3C720BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Is there a spec regarding the aperture range that I should be looking for? > > By way of example, I like this photo: > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/markusToshibaBC1624_diode.jpg > although I guess one could say the depth of focus is not really that great (?). > (It's the internals of a late-60s nixie desktop calculator (the diode farm > is discrete logic gates, of course). It was sent to me by a fellow calculator > collector a few years ago but I don't know what camera equipment was used.) A Caplio RR120. JPG captures on digital cameras typically put some text as a comment at the front of the jpeg file, containing hardware, time, date, sometimes the shutter/aperture/flash settings, etc. Tim. From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sat May 26 07:36:28 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 07:36:28 -0500 Subject: Complete success, OS/8 is up and running :) not so fast... Message-ID: On Fri, 25 May 2007 22:20:56 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: >Probably it didn't trup the first time you put the back in, when you >re-iserted it, and re-cloxsed the cover, it worked. You might want to >look at this, tweak the adjustments, etc. > >-tony Naturally, I jinxed it by bragging about my success :( The next day, the system wouldn't boot and I could see the FAULT light flicker as the system halted at address 10107. I initially thought disk drive problems again, or the pack got clobbered during swap-out for some reason. However, a little investigating quickly showed that even the most basic ten-word TTY check program would not deposit or run. In fact, when depositing or examining sequential locations I found the address display would increment from 0200 to 0001. 0577 would increment to 0400, etc. So something is wrong with address bit 4. I pulled all the boards from the backplane except the CPU set and it still does it. Now I've got to fix the hardware! Sigh. Meanwhile I have been SIMH-building a new OS/8 image from scratch for two drives. After much struggle I have the RL20 handler installed (which has logical drives R20A,B,C,D; the RL21 handler with R21A-D, and I had to omit the last 20% (the "E" drives on RL2E) because OS/8 can only allow fifteen handlers and space is needed for (at least) the R2SY system handler, TTY, SYS and DSK also... reminds me of Gates' "640K should be enough for anyone". -Charles From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 26 09:12:09 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 07:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <200705252255.26369.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <787340.38376.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I hooked that cable up poperly, fitted a Unibus terminator, hooked it up, set the "keyswitch" to Local, crossed my fingers and hit the breaker. It's alive! I get the >>> prompt on the VT220. It does, however, give me ERR RAM:90 on powerup, but at least it communicates with the terminal and the power supplies work and whatnot. It'll be an adventure to get this running - I have no bootable media, and I don't have a disk controller at all in here. There's a TU80 controller (M7454) - can this be connected to a Pertec interface tape drive? -Ian From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 26 10:36:27 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 10:36:27 -0500 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705260836y29c1470agcb7ae7863275b347@mail.gmail.com> On 5/26/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Well, for anything other than a KZQSA, I'd disagree, but for the > KZQSA I'm not sure the KZQSA has much value left in it. Maybe you > should just look at getting a VAXstation 3100/20 or a similar system, Ahh, I've got a couple of those. I just want to see this (slightly) older iron work. > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_9254.html Thanks for the link - good thing I didn't buy that card in a fit of boredom last night :) From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat May 26 10:39:23 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 11:39:23 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200705261539.l4QFdUU9058211@keith.ezwind.net> Based on your reported interest and usage, the MPixel size is not of importance. Your concern is to get as much Zoom as you can afford in a package you are willing to live with. For web-work 1024x768 resolution is just fine, go above that into the >3meg range and you will need/want to use a photo editor to reduce the image to a more workable size for transmission and viewing on-screen. For years my favorite camera for web work was an old Sony Mavica with a 14x zoom < $100 on ebay these days. When you slow down the camera to force the lense to close down you will find you want a tripod and cable release unless you are going to get serious with the lighting. You will find that many of the current generation of camera phones will provide you with acceptable results. Just a thought ... later Bob On Sat, 26 May 2007 01:38:05 -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: >Richard wrote: >> Would you be willing to visit and take a more comprehensive set of >> detailed pictures? >I would if I had a digital camera. Looks like bear has it covered anyways. >I've been wanting to get a digital camera but have to work up the enthusiasm >to brave the shopping malls. >Which reminds me I have a question for camera buffs. >If I can justify asking this here, the main motivation for getting a >camera is taking pictures of old equipment for addition to web pages. I'm not >into photography in a big way, in my life I've probably taken more photos for >tourists ("take photo please, just press button") than I have for myself. >My main concern for taking close-up (oblique, not just plan view) photos of >equipment is depth-of-focus. I know/figure it's mainly a function of aperture >size (smaller --> longer depth-of-focus) and (optical) zoom (to minimize the >ratio of focus-depth to lens-to-object distance). (And smaller aperture means >less light which requires longer exposure.) >If I have the above principles about right, the practical question(s) are: >Is your typical $200 / 3*-optical-zoom / 5-MPixel camera good for this or >does one have to go to something higher end with a special lens, etc.? >It's subjective as to what's adequate of course, but I'd be interested in >opinions. >Is there a spec regarding the aperture range that I should be looking for? >By way of example, I like this photo: > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/markusToshibaBC1624_diode.jpg >although I guess one could say the depth of focus is not really that great (?). >(It's the internals of a late-60s nixie desktop calculator (the diode farm >is discrete logic gates, of course). It was sent to me by a fellow calculator >collector a few years ago but I don't know what camera equipment was used.) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 26 10:56:53 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 11:56:53 -0400 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <881032.54403.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <881032.54403.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/25/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Now that the Vax is in the basement, I've been > cleaning and checking it out, trying to address what > problems I can. First and foremost, there is no key. The standard DEC key is stamped XX2247 (I have on on my regular keyring). You can either try to get one from a DEC enthusiast, or for a bit of money ($15?) you can get a full-service locksmith to code-cut you one based on that number. I have only ever encountered one machine in 25 years that didn't have the default key. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 26 11:01:58 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 12:01:58 -0400 Subject: Dolch Ruggedized laptop Power Plug? In-Reply-To: References: <1180084738.25290.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: On 5/25/07, Tony Duell wrote: > These days I probsbly would grab some brass rod, some plastic rod, and > start turning :-) Although I'd make darn sure I couldn't get the right > part first. > > Since the OP didn't seem to have any way to measuer the centre pin, I > assumed he didn't haev a lathe either. I do not have a lathe, nor most of what folks would associate with a machine shop (just a cheap Chinese drill press and some hand tools). I have ordered a Targus universal adapter kit that is documented as being able to provide 19VDC at over 3A. It has a set of random tips with it. We'll see what's in the box first, in case there's a compatible "Toshiba" tip in the pile. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 26 11:05:28 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 09:05:28 -0700 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. Message-ID: >From: "Ensor" ---snip--- > >I'd like to think that if the 68k had been chosen we'd have had far more >advanced PCs far quicker (I'm thinking back to the many 68k implementations >of UNIX amongst other things). But I do take your point about the >availability of software, let's face it, the *ONLY* reason I switched from >my Atari ST to the PC was software. > >Although....if we'd had 68k/UNIX based boxes on our desktops instead of >8086/DOS who's to say that there wouldn't have been a similar explosion of >software? Hi I think most software people would agree but that hard fact is that main memory is way behind processor speeds. This means that the more compact the instruction stream is, the faster the processor can run. We are quickly reaching the limits of clever caching, even for CISC processors like the X86 machines. I'm not saying that RISC machines are dead, just the opposite. Every X86 machine today has a RISC engine inside. I expect that the next generation processor will be even more CISC like and less RISC like to the external software. Memory bandwidth will dominate choices. Just my thoughts Dwight _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 26 11:31:01 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 12:31:01 -0400 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200705261231.01567.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 26 May 2007 12:05, dwight elvey wrote: > I think most software people would agree but that hard fact is that > main memory is way behind processor speeds. This means that the > more compact the instruction stream is, the faster the processor can > run. We are quickly reaching the limits of clever caching, even for > CISC processors like the X86 machines. > I'm not saying that RISC machines are dead, just the opposite. Every > X86 machine today has a RISC engine inside. > I expect that the next generation processor will be even more > CISC like and less RISC like to the external software. > Memory bandwidth will dominate choices. > Just my thoughts > Dwight This is one reason why POWER/PowerPC has "code compression", which is lets the runtime be compressed using a huffman-based compression scheme, which provides a speed-up similar to (or better than) CISC architectures. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat May 26 12:37:51 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 11:37:51 -0600 Subject: Floppy configurations on IBM PC 5150/5160 In-Reply-To: <20070525193916.U30959@shell.lmi.net> References: <4657A4EB.8030904@brutman.com> <20070525193916.U30959@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4658706F.4070802@brutman.com> I understand that the nickname is 'Grumpy Old Fred', but it is necessary to YELL because I got the existence/non-existence of the twist in the cable backwards? If I had said that the cause of the drive ID weirdness was because I have my US electrical socket installed with the grounding pin facing downward then I could understand the caps lock for emphasis, but in the grand scheme of things that was really a minor nit. Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 25 May 2007, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> For some strange reason, the IBM 4865 external drive unit that I am >> using showed up as drive number 3, not 2. (Counting from zero, of >> course.) I wonder if there is a twist in the internal cabling, or the >> drive select jumper is non-standard on this one. No problem it works >> just fine. > > a LACK OF A TWIST will do that > > > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat May 26 12:17:33 2007 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 12:17:33 -0500 Subject: grumpy In-Reply-To: <200705261701.l4QH10gp039637@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001c79fb9$c116ede0$0301ffac@obie> > Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 11:37:51 -0600 > From: "Michael B. Brutman" > Subject: Re: Floppy configurations on IBM PC 5150/5160 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4658706F.4070802 at brutman.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > I understand that the nickname is 'Grumpy Old Fred', but it > is necessary > to YELL because I got the existence/non-existence of the twist in the > cable backwards? > > If I had said that the cause of the drive ID weirdness was because I > have my US electrical socket installed with the grounding pin facing > downward then I could understand the caps lock for emphasis, > but in the > grand scheme of things that was really a minor nit. > > > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Fri, 25 May 2007, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> For some strange reason, the IBM 4865 external drive unit > that I am > >> using showed up as drive number 3, not 2. (Counting from zero, of > >> course.) I wonder if there is a twist in the internal cabling, or > >> the drive select jumper is non-standard on this one. No > problem it > >> works just fine. > > > > a LACK OF A TWIST will do that > > > > > > yeah - happy holidays (stateside) Jack No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/818 - Release Date: 5/25/2007 12:32 PM From jefftnc at compascable.net Sat May 26 13:49:05 2007 From: jefftnc at compascable.net (Jeff Thompson) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 14:49:05 -0400 Subject: FA: 2 Sierra InterAction magazines Message-ID: I thought these were all gone...but found 2 more. Sierra InterAction magazines - Spring 1997 - Summer 1997 http://tinyurl.com/ypju9e Excellent condition, have owned since new. Auction ends Sunday 5/27. Thanks for looking, Jeff No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/818 - Release Date: 5/25/2007 12:32 PM From pechter at gmail.com Sat May 26 14:39:28 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 15:39:28 -0400 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <881032.54403.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <881032.54403.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The 11/750 used a special Unibus Exerciser Terminator which IIRC had some diag registers in it. I think it was an M9313. Google shows them available from a lot of resellers... I know the diags used them.... don't know about the power-up self test. bill On 5/25/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Now that the Vax is in the basement, I've been > cleaning and checking it out, trying to address what > problems I can. First and foremost, there is no key. > But, I found that I could pop out the control panel > from behind, and that contains the actual turn switch > - the key is just the knob that turns the rotary > switch. My bright idea was to simply remove the key > mechanism for the moment, so that I could turn the > machine between modes with a modified television knob > or something. Simple - just remove a large hex nut > collar from the back, and slide it out. Unfortunately, > as it slid out, it ever so slightly caught the edge of > the plastic overlay for the control panel, and left a > little light colored mark around the bottom of the > hole where the overlay isn't sticking to the back > plastic, and has air under it. Nothing that affects > the functionality of the machine of course, but it > ticks me off, since I caused it. I can't think of a > way to fix it without causing more damage, however, so > I'll just have to live with it. > > Now that I can switch the machine on (once I get > confirmation on the orientation of the power > controller connector, see previous post), I should > soon be able to test run it. One thing that needs to > be addressed first, is that this machine must have > originally been fitted with an external unibus > expansion box - there is a large flat white cable > inside, connected to a paddle board on the last Unibus > slot. This cable was cut with scissors or something > where it exits the cabinet. I have removed this, but I > will need to install a Unibus terminator, correct? I > should be able to steal the terminator out of my 11/84 > for now - are they the same, or was the Vax Unibus a > little different? > > -Ian > > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat May 26 15:22:38 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Semi-OT: VCR help? Message-ID: <200705262027.QAA29866@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> I've got a VCR repair problem. (I thought it was just a broken drive belt, but apparently not.) Since this isn't really very on-topic (I doubt it's even ten years old), I'd prefer not to discuss it on-list. If anyone would be willing to lend a hand by email, could you write me off-list? I've set a reply-to pointing to two of my addresses, which between them give about as good a chance as is available that mail will actually reach me; in case the list mangles the reply-to, this means mouse at netbsd.org as well as mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 26 15:34:26 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:34:26 -0400 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: <881032.54403.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/26/07, Bill Pechter wrote: > The 11/750 used a special Unibus Exerciser Terminator which IIRC had some > diag registers in it. > I think it was an M9313. > > Google shows them available from a lot of resellers... > I know the diags used them.... don't know about the power-up self test. Our 11/750 didn't have one, and I don't think the power-up self-test requires it. OTOH, the DWBUA requires a UET module. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 26 15:54:56 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 13:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy configurations on IBM PC 5150/5160 In-Reply-To: <4658706F.4070802@brutman.com> References: <4657A4EB.8030904@brutman.com> <20070525193916.U30959@shell.lmi.net> <4658706F.4070802@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20070526134929.I66030@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 26 May 2007, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I understand that the nickname is 'Grumpy Old Fred', but it is necessary > to YELL because I got the existence/non-existence of the twist in the > cable backwards? Sorry my emphasis was not intended to offend you > If I had said that the cause of the drive ID weirdness was because I > have my US electrical socket installed with the grounding pin facing > downward then I could understand the caps lock for emphasis, but in the > grand scheme of things that was really a minor nit. a number of years ago, I saw why some insist on putting the ground prong up. A colleague was measuring the room (for new equipment), using a tape measure. The tape slid down the wall, and right into the tiny gap between a plug and its socket -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat May 26 16:03:08 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:03:08 -0500 Subject: The Last of The Line In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F40@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F40@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4658A08C.9040008@mdrconsult.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > So Slot one: > M8190 > Or > M8190-AB 15Mhz > Or > M8190-AE 18Mhz > > Slot two/three > > MSV11-JD (1Mb) x 2 > or > > MSV11-JE (2Mb) x 2 > > So can we get to a consensus as to which boards in what order are known > to work? Empirical evidence, from visual inspection of the 11/84 I use for media transcription. Considering where I got it, this is almost certainly not factory configuration, but was almost certainly configured under DEC maintenance. Slot 1: M8190-AE KDJ11-BF Slot 2: M8637-BC MSV11-JB Slot 3: M8637-DF MSV11-JD Point of interest: I got this system when it was decommissioned from production work, in 2004. The other /84 is sitting behind some of my Spousal Equivalent's craft stuff, so I couldn't check. I do not move her toys uninvited. :^) Doc From ohh at drizzle.com Sat May 26 16:55:02 2007 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 14:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp-12 diagnostic scans In-Reply-To: <46578DCA.8040607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 May 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > I have a large portion of the pdp-12 diags scanned. I'll try to get > the tape diags up on bitsavers tonight. Thanks for this. You're a god. :) -O.- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 26 16:56:05 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 14:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Depth of Focus (was: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ In-Reply-To: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20070526141439.P66030@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 26 May 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > My main concern for taking close-up (oblique, not just plan view) photos of > equipment is depth-of-focus. I know/figure it's mainly a function of aperture > size (smaller --> longer depth-of-focus) and (optical) zoom (to minimize the > ratio of focus-depth to lens-to-object distance). (And smaller aperture means > less light which requires longer exposure.) > If I have the above principles about right, the practical question(s) are: > Is your typical $200 / 3*-optical-zoom / 5-MPixel camera good for this or > does one have to go to something higher end with a special lens, etc.? > It's subjective as to what's adequate of course, but I'd be interested in > opinions. > Is there a spec regarding the aperture range that I should be looking for? If you're not picky, then almost anything should give images adequate for www. If you are picky, there are some simple formulas to use. If you are including any photos that show the screen, use a long exposure to get multiple retraces. (see the article that Dr. Marty and I did for Coco magazine) my apologies if the following is too much, or not enough, technical info: The aperture is stated as in f units, which is the ratio of the [effective] focal length of the lens to the [effective] diameter. It is logarithmic - to halve the exposure, multiply the f number by sqrt(2). [effective] is because there are optical tricks to make lenses have focal lengths and diameters other than the actual measured distance (often needed to make telephotos smaller, or to be able to have a wide angle whose focal length won't physically fit the camera). Depth of focus is a function of focal length (shorter has more D.O.F.), aperture (smaller has more D.O.F.), and how much blur you are willing to tolerate. A = (L * B * F) / ((L * F) + C * (B - F)) Z = (L * B * F) / ((L * F) - C * (B - F)) where A is nearest distance "in focus" Z = farthest point in focus L = [effective] diameter (aperture) of lens B = distance nominally focused for F = [effective] focal length f = diameter/aperture expressed as ratio F/D C = circle of confusion (if there is a point, just how big a blur would you call "in focus") c = angular size of circle of confusion the same thing could also be expressed as: A = (B * B * tan(c)) / (L + (B * tan(c))) Z = (B * B * tan(c)) / (L - (B * tan(c))) NOTE: The variable names that I used are old traditional names for them, including F and f and other potentially confusing choices. FORTRAN and WATFOR are capitalized, because they are acronyms, not for emphasis nor shouting. US f numbers are typically 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, 32, 45, 64, 90, 128; for a while, some european companies used 4.5, 6.3, 9, 13, etc. Both the number of calibration points, and the endmost numbers can vary. And the focal distance calibrations will vary in range, choices of intermediate values, and units of measure. Slightly more on-topic: Because of those variations, the first FORTRAN program that I did that used "runtime calculated/specified formatting" was to printout depth of focus tables for my lenses. I used WATFOR at George Washington University, about 1970. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat May 26 17:12:17 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 23:12:17 +0100 Subject: Punch card file drawers. In-Reply-To: <200705261613.l4QGBvNZ039057@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705261613.l4QGBvNZ039057@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0B09C9AE-102C-435A-87A4-320E419E1A9F@microspot.co.uk> On 26 May, 2007, at 17:13, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > A while back, Someone here was looking for punch card file cabnets > and there was several > metos'. That was me, I asked for ones in the UK. What's a meto? > I have located 3 Standard 4 foot, 10highx2wide file cabinets. 2 > Gray and one Orange/Red. > They are here in Columbus Ohio. I will be looking into shipping > options next week for those > who are interested. > I have seen the packing and shipping subject raised here numerious > times in the past, and > am open to current comments and suggestions. > > I will take my portable scale over next week and get their > measurements and a weight. Well, I'd like to know how much, but I expect shipping will be uneconomic. Please don't use too much of your time. I remember the cabinets as about 2 metres high, though maybe that was two 1 metre cabinets on top of each other. I suppose if I didn't stack them I could use the top as a worktop. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 26 17:25:12 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 17:25:12 -0500 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705261525x1ef97fbbi72e1ab6794d611c3@mail.gmail.com> On 5/25/07, Jason T wrote: > This one is perpetually listed at $100 >http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-VAX-MicroVAX-SCSI-Module-KZQSA_W0QQitemZ9734857775QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1479QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem Heh....before I learned more about this board I made a "best offer" for it for $25, thinking he'd never take it. Well, he took it. So now I've got a tape-only quadbus scsi board on the way that may not fit in my case. I read on one page that it may recognize CD-Rom drives, however. So I guess that's something. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 26 18:24:09 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:24:09 -0700 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705261525x1ef97fbbi72e1ab6794d611c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730705261525x1ef97fbbi72e1ab6794d611c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:25 PM -0500 5/26/07, Jason T wrote: >On 5/25/07, Jason T wrote: >>This one is perpetually listed at $100 >>http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-VAX-MicroVAX-SCSI-Module-KZQSA_W0QQitemZ9734857775QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1479QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem > >Heh....before I learned more about this board I made a "best offer" >for it for $25, thinking he'd never take it. Well, he took it. So >now I've got a tape-only quadbus scsi board on the way that may not >fit in my case. > >I read on one page that it may recognize CD-Rom drives, however. So I >guess that's something. I believe most S-Box cards can be made to fit in a standard Q-Bus chassis with some work. Though in doing so you might weaken the ports on the card. I think the KZQSA will support at least a couple CD-ROM drives, I don't remember for sure, but I thought that was their primary purpose. The bad news it might be hard to get a supported drive. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 26 18:24:23 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <962676.99101.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Our 11/750 didn't have one, and I don't think the > power-up self-test > requires it. > > OTOH, the DWBUA requires a UET module. So far, I haven't gotten far enough to find out wether my Unibus terminator I'm using is right, but I think it should. I think it's a M9302, it came from an 11/84. I am having problems with the Vax though, but I can't see them having anything to do with the Unibus. At powerup, I get the message ERR RAM:90, and the RD FAIL lamp is lit on the front. I have also gotten RAM:C0 errors, and I believe one other number. On the RDM board (L0006) there appears to be like two dozen 9114 RAM chips, and they're soldered to the board. I have a couple of spare 2114's (the 9114 is the same, from what I know) but I don't know which chip needs to be replaced. Normally, I'd substitute one at a time, but since the chips are soldered, that isn't much of an option. So... any way of correlating the error numbers to the failed chip, or do I need to just start guessing? Will the machine even work without the RDM? I get the >>> prompt and can enter commands there, and all seems well. But when I hit ^D and get into the RDM> prompt, keys typed don't display, and the cursor moves around, sometimes forward a couple cells, sometimes backwards. Enter seems to work though, giving me a new RDM> prompt, although no other output can be generated, and I can't seem to get back to >>> without shutting the machine off. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 26 18:38:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:38:27 -0700 Subject: MS-DOS question Message-ID: <46586283.23629.32E3A4D6@cclist.sydex.com> I've got a few nested (via CALL) batch files that create different files via the > and >> redirection operators under MS-DOS 7.01. Everything seems to work fine until I've created more than the number of files on my CONFIG.SYS FILES= statement--whereupon I get a "File creation error" message and DOS hangs, necessitating a reboot. It seems as if COMMAND.COM is keeping open any file created within a batch script by redirection. Is this really so--or is it the case that DOS isn't closing each batch file invoked with a CALL statement? Assuming that this is a real stinker of a DOS bug, how does one get around it? Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 26 18:51:27 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel 8086 Design Kit x10 Message-ID: <140167.61531.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/8086-System-Design-Kit-intel_ W0QQitemZ150126261352QQihZ005QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ 1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 26 18:30:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 00:30:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Complete success, OS/8 is up and running :) not so fast... In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at May 26, 7 07:36:28 am Message-ID: > However, a little investigating quickly showed that even the most > basic ten-word TTY check program would not deposit or run. In > fact, when depositing or examining sequential locations I found > the address display would increment from 0200 to 0001. 0577 would > increment to 0400, etc. So something is wrong with address bit 4. > I pulled all the boards from the backplane except the CPU set and > it still does it. Now I've got to fix the hardware! Sigh. > I am wondering if this has anyhting to do with the 'address in current page / address in zero page' logic. Remind me as to which CPU you have. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 26 18:28:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 00:28:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, In-Reply-To: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at May 26, 7 01:38:05 am Message-ID: > > Richard wrote: > > Would you be willing to visit and take a more comprehensive set of > > detailed pictures? > > I would if I had a digital camera. Looks like bear has it covered anyways. > I've been wanting to get a digital camera but have to work up the enthusiasm > to brave the shopping malls. I don;t havea digital camera either. It makes absolutely no sense for me to get one. If I bought a digital camera, I'd also haev to buy a modern computer, the equipment to maintain that computer, software, and the like. And I'd probably have to upgrade various bits of it every couple of years -- more expense. Now, much is made of the fact that digital photographs are cheaper than film photographs. Probably ture until you consider those upgrade costs as well (A good film camrera will go on for decades without problems). At that point you realise you have to shoot an awful lot of film to make it worthwhile. I've also yet to see a digital camera that comes close to the qualtiy of results from my film cameras. I am not talking about apparent sharpness, that can be tweaked. I am talking about detail in the image. Most high-steet film processing 'minilabs' can put your inmages onto CD for a nominal extra charge. The scans aren't great, but I always get the CD anyway. That way, I have the film negatives, which I can always print myself or rhave sanned at a higher resolution, I also have the machine prints and the CD whoch is probably adequate for web pages, etc. And the place I use takes 30 minutes to process and print the flim and burn the CD. Hardly that long. Anyway, rant over... > > Which reminds me I have a question for camera buffs. > If I can justify asking this here, the main motivation for getting a > camera is taking pictures of old equipment for addition to web pages. I'm not > into photography in a big way, in my life I've probably taken more photos for > tourists ("take photo please, just press button") than I have for myself. > > My main concern for taking close-up (oblique, not just plan view) photos of > equipment is depth-of-focus. I know/figure it's mainly a function of aperture You mean depth of field. Depth of focus refers to the allowable error in the postiion of the image plane (film), not the object plane. > size (smaller --> longer depth-of-focus) and (optical) zoom (to minimize the > ratio of focus-depth to lens-to-object distance). (And smaller aperture means > less light which requires longer exposure.) True. The log expsore shouldn't be a problem though. Arrange a stand for the camera, fix the object and the ligthing (I made a copying stand from n old enlarger and some metal bar). I routinely use exposures of 1s or longer for this. LEns resolution is worse at very small apertures due to difraction effects. But for close-ups where depth of field is limited anyway, keep the lens stopped down (smallest aperture). You want a camera that gives you manaul control over the aperture setting. I am told some cheaper digital cameras are auto-only, and are unlikely to be very suitable. More expensive ones certainly do have such control. Depth of field doesn't actually exist, if you think about it. There is exactly one object distance that gives a sharp image on the film for a given lens position (focus setting). The only reason that you get an apparent depth of field is that small circular areas on the final print look like perfect points when viewed by the human eye at normal viewing distances. If you have each point blurred out to, say, 1/1000", it'll still look sharp. Now, actually, digital cameras can do better heer because of the more limited resolution of the sensor compared to good film, and the image processing you can apply. If the blur (the technical term is 'circle of confusion' is smaller than the size of a pixel on the image sensor, it's sharp. The right way to get better depth of field for oblique shots is to tilt the lens (!). There's a well known principle, the name of which I can neither spell nor pronounce that basically says the image plane (film), subject plane, and a plane throughthe centre of the lenx perpendicular to the optical axis should all interstect in the smae line. The problem is that no digital camera has a tilting front. Few film cameras do either other than large-format (5*4" sheet film) technical cameras, which to be honest are not what I'd recomend to you. They produce excellent results, but they take a lot of practice to use properly, you need a darkroom, and so on. Yes, there are digital backs for them, but you want to sit down before hearing the price (_Way_ more than the cost od a decent car, for example). > > If I have the above principles about right, the practical question(s) are: > > Is your typical $200 / 3*-optical-zoom / 5-MPixel camera good for this or > does one have to go to something higher end with a special lens, etc.? I think you want something a bit higher-end than that, but I might be wrong. Personally, I'd want interchangeable lenses (extreme close-ups are one of the times when this is useful, not just for fitting special lenses corrected for short object distances but also to be able to extend the lense further from the vamera).. I'd also want full control over the various settings, in particular manual focus and aperture controls. > It's subjective as to what's adequate of course, but I'd be interested in > opinions. That said, it deptend on what you want to do with the photos. If you want to just keep a record of how something wnnt together, how the cables were routed, and so on, then just about anything will do if it can focus close enough. Similarly, you probably don't need anything special if you want to put pictures oan a web page so you can point out compoents on the PCB that are inovled in a particualr function amd which you had to test as part of a repair. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 26 19:29:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 01:29:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Depth of Focus (was: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ In-Reply-To: <20070526141439.P66030@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 26, 7 02:56:05 pm Message-ID: > If you are including any photos that show the screen, use a long exposure Assuming your computer/PCB/whatever is not going to run away, I would recomend 'stopping the lens down' (setting a small aperture) to get the largest depth of field that uyou can and having a long exposure to comensate. Most (good) digitcal cameras have several sensitivity settings, described as ISO/ASA settings by analogy with film speeds (sensitivities). A lower sensitivity setting generally produces an image with less noise in it, but of course you need a longer exposure. Assuming everything (camera and subjext) is static, use a low sensitivity setting. > to get multiple retraces. (see the article that Dr. Marty and I did for > Coco magazine) > > > my apologies if the following is too much, or not enough, technical info: > > The aperture is stated as in f units, which is the ratio of the More exactly f/ numbers (the slash is part of the name). For example, an aperture of f/8 means what it says, the (effective) diameter of the aperture is 1/8th of the focal length of the lens. > [effective] focal length of the lens to the [effective] diameter. > It is logarithmic - to halve the exposure, multiply the f number by > sqrt(2). I wouldn't call it logarithmic. There is no log or exponential function anywhere in the definition. The amount of light coming through the lens depends (linarly ) on the effective area of the aperture, which is clearly related to the square of the diameter. So to halve the amount of light, you multipy the diameter (or f/ number) by sqrt(2), Most lenses have the apetrure scale calibated in approximately sqrt(2) multipes : 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, 32, 45 Moving my 1 step (or 'stop' as photographers call it) halves or doubles the eposure. SImilarly the shutter speeds are set in an approximate doubling seires, so that changing the aperutre by 1 stop and chnaging the shutter speed by one stop in the opposite direcion produces the same exposure ta the film/sensor.But of course the depth of field, and the ability to 'freeze motion' will be different in the 2 cases. > [effective] is because there are optical tricks to make lenses have focal > lengths and diameters other than the actual measured distance (often > needed to make telephotos smaller, or to be able to have a wide angle To be precise ,a telephoto lens is not simply a long focal length lens. It's one where hte 'back focus' is shorted than the focal length -- the lens has been made shorter by these optical tricks. > whose focal length won't physically fit the camera). In particualr, in single lens reflex cameras you have a swinging mirror behind the lens. Obviously no part of the lens must get in the way of that, so wide angle lenses (short focal length) need to have a back focus longer than the effective focal length. The is a 'retrofocus' or 'reverse telephoto' lens/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 26 18:37:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 00:37:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 26, 7 11:56:53 am Message-ID: > The standard DEC key is stamped XX2247 (I have on on my regular > keyring). You can either try to get one from a DEC enthusiast, or for So do I :-) > a bit of money ($15?) you can get a full-service locksmith to code-cut > you one based on that number. Or real madmen with a lathe/mill and a dividing head can machine it themselves from metal tubing ;-) > > I have only ever encountered one machine in 25 years that didn't have > the default key. Well, later DEC machines (11/44, etc) take the smae-sized key, but there are no pins in the lock. Any thing that will fit into the lock and engage with the grouve in the central it will work. The official DEC key is just a plastic moulding with a ridge inside. Obviosuly an XX2247 will work too. The 11/05 , 11/10 and GT40 had a Yale-type cylinder lock with a flat key. 3 wafer tumbers IIRC, very easy to pick if you're so inclinded (or of course you can dismantle it from the panel casting quite easily. Or are you saying you had an 11/750 (or similar) that needed a 'proper' tubular key (with the notches) but it wasn't an XX2247? -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 26 20:05:45 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 18:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070526174532.M72272@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 27 May 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > LEns resolution is worse at very small apertures due to difraction > effects. But for close-ups where depth of field is limited anyway, keep > the lens stopped down (smallest aperture). and, of course, it varies a lot depending on lens design. SOME large format lenses (Goerz?) are specifically designed to be happy at f64. An oversimplified rule of thumb is to avoid the last 2 stops at each end of the range. > The right way to get better depth of field for oblique shots is to tilt > the lens (!). There's a well known principle, the name of which I can > neither spell nor pronounce that basically says the image plane (film), > subject plane, and a plane throughthe centre of the lenx perpendicular to > the optical axis should all interstect in the smae line. "Scheimpflug" (Theodor Scheimpflug denied originating the principle that is named after him.) > That said, it deptend on what you want to do with the photos. If you want > to just keep a record of how something wnnt together, how the cables were > routed, and so on, then just about anything will do if it can focus close > enough. You can also cheat with "Portra lenses". A 3+ portra lens will give you focusing from about a foot down, and can be added to almost any camera and lens. But, certainly nowhere near as good an image as an untampered lens on an extension tube. For a 50mm lens, you're not likely to need more than a few more millimeters, so a bellows is suitable for long lenses, or extreme closeups. A quick rule is that adding an extension equal to the focal length gives you 1:1. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 26 20:11:44 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 21:11:44 -0400 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51973BF4-E738-456C-AF6A-7B0105E6148D@neurotica.com> On May 26, 2007, at 7:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The standard DEC key is stamped XX2247 (I have on on my regular >> keyring). You can either try to get one from a DEC enthusiast, or >> for > > So do I :-) Same here. I think that's the badge of a true DECaholic. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spc at conman.org Sat May 26 20:40:29 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 21:40:29 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20070527014029.GA30556@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Brent Hilpert once stated: > > Is your typical $200 / 3*-optical-zoom / 5-MPixel camera good for this or > does one have to go to something higher end with a special lens, etc.? > It's subjective as to what's adequate of course, but I'd be interested in > opinions. That should be good enough. But you'll definitely want a tripod (which aren't that expensive) since (in my experience) digital cameras tend to be slow in capturing a picture (compared to film cameras) in even medium light. Also, when you get the camera, set it up on the tripod, and take a bazillion pictures with a test object. For each picture, you'll change some setting (make sure you keep notes) and then view them afterwards. This will get you familiar with the camera's features and what settings "work" for you. Some of the critical settings are things like light balance (or color temperature), exposure compensation, the timer (waits X seconds prior to taking a picture), ISO (sensitivity of the "film"), etc. I had to do this back when I took photography in school (using film!) as part of familiarizing ourselves with our equipment. With digital photography, this won't be as expensive as with a film camera, so its well worth the time to do it. -spc (Sure, I miss using my 35mm camera, but the digital is way more convenient ... ) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 26 20:40:35 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 18:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <617254.87074.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Brent, Start cheap. Consider a Digitrex DSC-2100. Here's one on eBay as we speeque: http://cgi.ebay.com/Digitrex-DSC-2100-Digital-Camera-built-in-MP3-Player_W0QQitemZ160120393590QQihZ006QQcategoryZ31388QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ...$10 You'll be surprised the results you can get (with a bit of care) w/essentially a *toy* cam _supposedly_ rated @ 2mpix. You'd be surprised with the results you'd get w/1mpix. My very first cam was an Aiptek Pencam SD (yes takes SD cards, have a 1 meg card, not sure if it'll access the whole thing though. Can't even find the thing...). Prior to this past week, I haven't spent more then ~$30 on a cam, having found a deal on a Nikon Coolpix S9 at Target ($67 w/tax, watch Target if they're in your area. You can find astounding deals on the endcaps from time to time). I can't find a price of less then $199 online for the same unit. That thing does 6 *effective*? mpix. Sometimes I get a good picture with it (shooting from the hip). Other times blah. But if you're doing stills all the time, you can fiddle to your heart's content. I'll reiterate, start cheap, and you'll know what you're getting into. The only problem I can see with buying say the Digitrex model I pointed out is that it takes cflash cards, and few other cameras do these days. But you won't be put out too much if you spent $20 on a 1gig Cflash card, being that they're useable for *other types* of storage, especially in the vintage category. Figure a kit of rechargeable batteries and charger into your expenses (again the D* uses AA's, my Nikon comes with a lion battery, which is emminently frustrating, cuz it takes 2 hours to charge. My AA's ~25mins). The D* seems much better on battery life also. The Nikon was a little disappointing in that department. You DON'T want to own a digital camera w/o rechargeables. What I wouldn't do to be able to buy some other cam down the way that uses cflash and my rechargeable AA's. I'm also not crazy about the diminutive size of this coolpix thing, but it was so reasonable, I couldn't pass it up. I like something I can feel in my rather large mit. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 26 21:15:57 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 20:15:57 -0600 Subject: freebie score Message-ID: Someone in Ogden contacted me out of the blue and gave me: - Commodore C=64 - Commodore 1541 floppy drive - Commodore MPS801 printer - Texas Instruments color monitor - TRS-80 Model III computer - IBM 5150 w/1 floppy - IBM 5151 monitor - Apple ][e w/2 DISK ][ - Apple Macintosh Model M0001 - Columbia Data Products VP - Some diskettes, but nothing out of the ordinary Of these, if anyone is interested in the Columbia Data Products VP , let me know. It has just CGA graphics and isn't particularly interesting to me graphics-wise, but someone who collects IBM clone portables would find it interesting. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 26 21:20:37 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 19:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <51973BF4-E738-456C-AF6A-7B0105E6148D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <851068.90087.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 26, 2007, at 7:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> The standard DEC key is stamped XX2247 (I have on > on my regular > >> keyring). You can either try to get one from a > DEC enthusiast, or > >> for > > > > So do I :-) > > Same here. I think that's the badge of a true > DECaholic. > Heh - I have a "key" that I carry on my keyring that is really an allen key - the same size as the allen key turn locks on the DEC doors on small cabinets - like the TU8x tape drive, the front and back doors to the 750, and similar cabinets. It's stamped IBM though - I found it in some bin of debris a long time ago, and it's remained with me ever since. It comes in handy a little _too_ often. -Ian From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sat May 26 22:25:21 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 20:25:21 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply Message-ID: <3afee7520705262025n448f46bfrccc22314bf39d31a@mail.gmail.com> I pulled out my "extra" Apple /// for a test run today in preparation for selling it. It worked great but after a bit the power supply started smoking. I pulled it to find that a cap has blown and shot oil all over the place. Rather than repair it I'm looking to replace it with another. Does anyone have an Apple /// power supply they'd part with? -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 26 22:54:02 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 21:54:02 -0600 Subject: freebie score In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 26 May 2007 20:15:57 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > - TRS-80 Model III computer This is also up for grabs; no peripherals and 3 keycaps are missing, but its free for cost of shipping. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat May 26 23:22:17 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 21:22:17 -0700 Subject: WTB: MicroVAX II SCSI Message-ID: > Heh....before I learned more about this board I made a "best offer" > for it for $25, thinking he'd never take it. Well, he took it. So > now I've got a tape-only quadbus scsi board on the way that may not > fit in my case. > > I read on one page that it may recognize CD-Rom drives, however. So I > guess that's something. KZQSA does more in real life than it's supposed to. I have one in a VAX 4000/200 that I use to run CD-ROMs (the VAX wouldn't start up from a Plextor 12x, but a Toshiba 4x is fine), and prior to my HSD05-AA hack it was running a Seagate 4GB disk. Not fast, but it worked. Not worth $100, but since you have it it will most likely function. Was it der Mouse or VAX9000 who has the Qbus MSCP SCSI card kit in beta? From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 27 00:32:36 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 00:32:36 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS question In-Reply-To: <46586283.23629.32E3A4D6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46586283.23629.32E3A4D6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <465917F4.6080302@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a few nested (via CALL) batch files that create different > files via the > and >> redirection operators under MS-DOS 7.01. > Everything seems to work fine until I've created more than the number > of files on my CONFIG.SYS FILES= statement--whereupon I get a "File > creation error" message and DOS hangs, necessitating a reboot. > > It seems as if COMMAND.COM is keeping open any file created within a > batch script by redirection. Is this really so--or is it the case > that DOS isn't closing each batch file invoked with a CALL statement? In my experience, DOS keeps all files open until the original parent batch file finishes execution. > Assuming that this is a real stinker of a DOS bug, how does one get > around it? 1. Increase FILES= (what is it set to now?) 2. Chain if at all possible (it sounds like you're going past DOS's nominal level of recursion) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 27 01:11:39 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 00:11:39 -0600 Subject: freebie score In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 26 May 2007 21:54:02 -0600. Message-ID: Oops, I forgot to mention: I am in Salt Lake City, UT 84106; anyone who wants the TRS-80 Model III or the Columbia Data Products VP can have them for cost of packing and shipping. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 27 02:08:09 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 03:08:09 -0400 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/26/07, Tony Duell wrote: > Or real madmen with a lathe/mill and a dividing head can machine it > themselves from metal tubing ;-) My brother is a locksmith... he machined himself a 7-position tubular _lockpick_... 7 feelers and a restriction collet - you sort of twist and press in a particular motion, and the feelers eventually (60 seconds?) slide to the right positions to open the lock. One thing that's cooler than picking an ordinary pin-tumbler lock is that you can take the tubular lock pick to a tubular key cutter and make a "real" key from it. > > > > I have only ever encountered one machine in 25 years that didn't have > > the default key. > > Well, later DEC machines (11/44, etc) take the smae-sized key, but there > are no pins in the lock. Any thing that will fit into the lock and engage > with the grouve in the central it will work. The official DEC key is just > a plastic moulding with a ridge inside. Obviosuly an XX2247 will work too. Yes. I wasn't counting those. > The 11/05 , 11/10 and GT40 had a Yale-type cylinder lock with a flat key. > 3 wafer tumbers IIRC, very easy to pick if you're so inclinded (or of > course you can dismantle it from the panel casting quite easily. Yes; not those either (I have an 11/05) > Or are you saying you had an 11/750 (or similar) that needed a 'proper' > tubular key (with the notches) but it wasn't an XX2247? It was a PDP-8/L - when I got that first PDP-8/L at Dayton 25 years ago, it came with a "mate" for parts (no front panel, no core stack, broken chassis, some damage to the backplane...). That second CPU had a key that was *not* an XX2247. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 27 02:18:01 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 00:18:01 -0700 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer inCanada, for sale References: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> <20070526120401.3C720BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <46593091.4BA3589E@cs.ubc.ca> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > A Caplio RR120. JPG captures on digital cameras typically put some text > as a comment at the front of the jpeg file, containing hardware, time, date, > sometimes the shutter/aperture/flash settings, etc. Neat, I did an ASCII dump on the jpg and see that info now. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 27 02:19:04 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 00:19:04 -0700 Subject: Depth of Focus (was: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ References: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> <20070526141439.P66030@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <465930CF.B0C7B425@cs.ubc.ca> Thanks for all the replies and info. I get the feeling I'll be OK with something fairly ordinary. I realised the resolution of even low end cameras these days was more than adequate for the task, decent electronics being inexpensive; but suspected that on the optics end corners would get cut, variability might be limited, and design targets would be for taking photos of groups of people 10-20 feet away. I was forgetting that lots of people like to take close-up photos of flowers. I found a tripod while bushwhacking over a bluff in the woods in the middle of nowhere a few months ago, apparently someone had made the effort to go way off trail to take photos and had forgotten it, so that issue is covered. I did experiment briefly with a friend's under-$100 unit: it fails to focus well at all, may not be a design problem but perhaps a production-quality issue. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 27 04:43:18 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 04:43:18 -0500 Subject: Depth of Focus In-Reply-To: <465930CF.B0C7B425@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> <20070526141439.P66030@shell.lmi.net> <465930CF.B0C7B425@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <465952B6.1050009@yahoo.co.uk> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Thanks for all the replies and info. I get the feeling I'll be OK with something > fairly ordinary. Some other points to consider: Lots of cheaper cameras are extremely light weight - light enough to seriously harm usability when not using a tripod (and there are times when tripod use is impractical!) There are times when an optical viewfinder is extremely useful - not all digital cameras have them these days, and some have miniature LCD "electronic viewfinders" which in my experience are next to useless. LCD screens which can hinge away from the main body are important - both for using the LCD in difficult lighting conditions, and for setting up shots "round corners". Surprising how often this is useful when taking shots of computer internals, or close-ups on the tripod. Remote controls can be handy - if I'm taking photos of PCBs say, I'll set the background and tripod up, then just use the remote to take shots so that I don't have to disturb the camera. Watch out for cameras which can't be run directly from the PSU - if you're indoors taking lots of shots / movies then it's far more convenient to run the camera direct from the power supply than to have several charged batteries on stand-by. It can be handy to have a hot-shoe flash socket on the camera too for certain types of shot - it's less relevant than the other considerations, but it's surprising how many camera manufacturers don't spend the extra couple of bucks in adding one. Finally, watch out for cameras which don't even have a standard tripod socket - I believe that some of the lower-end models don't bother, as they expect use to just be point and click. Phew. Food for thought anyway. Shop around - ideally by visiting a few camera stores and physically seeing the item you're about to spend lots of money on :-) Case construction quality varies wildly, not to mention that some layouts fail horribly when holding the camera by hand (fingers naturally cover up important sensors etc.) - these sorts of things are difficult to find out from a small picture on a website! After you have a short-list, read lots of reviews, too - there will be certain 'glitches' with all cameras which may or may not matter to you, so it's worth doing some reading around. (e.g. my Canon is fine, apart from the auto-focus gets a little confused at times, and the camera doesn't remember zoom setting between power cycles. I can live with them as it's a fantastic camera otherwise, but I could see them driving some people nuts :-) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 27 05:43:42 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 11:43:42 +0100 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <200705261539.l4QFdUU9058211@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200705261539.l4QFdUU9058211@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <465960DE.8010808@dunnington.plus.com> Bob Bradlee wrote: > Based on your reported interest and usage, the MPixel size is not of importance. > Your concern is to get as much Zoom as you can afford in a package you are willing to live with. The idea that the (optical) zoom matters, presumably because people think that more zoom means getting further away and changing the viewpoint and therefore means greater depth of field[1], is actually a fallacy. For any given width of view of a subject (in other words, getting the same amount in the frame), using a given aperture, the depth of field is the same regardless of the focal length of the lens.It may seem counter-intuitive but it's because the depth of field and the aperture both are related to the focal length. Anyone who doesn't believe this is welcome to check the equations in any standard textbook such as LP Clerc's "Photography" :-) Of course, changing viewpoint does make a difference to the perspective in the view. 1] This is the correct term for what many people wrongly call depth of focus. Depth of focus is something different, internal to the camera. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun May 27 05:52:20 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:52:20 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer inCanada, for sale In-Reply-To: <46593091.4BA3589E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> <20070526120401.3C720BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <46593091.4BA3589E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20070527105220.6CFA2BA4439@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > A Caplio RR120. JPG captures on digital cameras typically put some text > > as a comment at the front of the jpeg file, containing hardware, time, date, > > sometimes the shutter/aperture/flash settings, etc. > > Neat, I did an ASCII dump on the jpg and see that info now. Am I perhaps one of the few remaining people who look at jpeg's by doing ASCII and octal dumps of the files? :-). I am very proud of continuing to occasionally browse websites by telnetting to port 80. Tim. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 27 04:39:46 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 11:39:46 +0200 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730705261525x1ef97fbbi72e1ab6794d611c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070527113946.41fd78f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 26 May 2007 16:24:09 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I believe most S-Box cards can be made to fit in a standard Q-Bus > chassis with some work. Though in doing so you might weaken the > ports on the card. IIRC: The KZQSA has "centronics" style SCSI connectors. These are to big to fit into a BA23 or BA123. The SCSI connectors will collide with the card in front of the KZQSA. IIRC: The KZQSA is a dump device. It does not speak (T)MSCP. It has no boot ROM and no standard VAX boot ROM supports the KZQSA as boot device. It was intended as tape and CDROM interface only. What you want is a RQZX1 (M5977). This is a SCSI to MSCP and TMSCP adapter. Or one of the third party equivalents. (CMD, Dilog, Emulex, ...) Don't forget to have a look at: http://www.mscpscsi.com/ -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 27 05:20:35 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 12:20:35 +0200 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, In-Reply-To: References: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20070527122035.22ed3770.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 27 May 2007 00:28:11 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > The right way to get better depth of field for oblique shots is to > tilt the lens (!). There's a well known principle, the name of which > I can neither spell nor pronounce Scheimpflug. There are also special shift and tilt lenses for (D)SLR cameras. Some bellows and extension tubes have shift / tilt fuctions for macro as well. So you can shift / tilt with any lens using this macro extension tubes. > Yes, there are > digital backs for them, but you want to sit down before hearing the > price (_Way_ more than the cost od a decent car, for example). There is a cheap trick that makes this discussion nearly on topic: Some hackers have fited a flat bed scanner to the back of a 8"x10" view camera. Obviously it works only for static ceens. Sometimes you can get real 4"x5" scanbacks quite cheap, just like drum scanners. One word to the depth of field problem: The low end (i.e. non SLR) digital cameras have small CCD / CMOS image sensors. Often only 1/2" in diagonal. So the "standard focal length" on these cameras is already quite short. As has been said already: D.O.F. depends on the focal length. The shorter, the more D.O.F. So you get large D.O.F. out of any "cheap" digital camera. Usually you have the problem to get a _small_ D.O.F. out of this digicams, e.g. if you wane use a small D.O.F. for compositional / artistic purposes. (Typical: portrait of a person with blurry background.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun May 27 02:46:32 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 08:46:32 +0100 Subject: The Last of The Line Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F6A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Thanks Apart from my systems being 11/94's (Which I am not sure matters) That looks good. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley Sent: 26 May 2007 22:03 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The Last of The Line Rod Smallwood wrote: > So Slot one: > M8190 > Or > M8190-AB 15Mhz > Or > M8190-AE 18Mhz > > Slot two/three > > MSV11-JD (1Mb) x 2 > or > > MSV11-JE (2Mb) x 2 > > So can we get to a consensus as to which boards in what order are > known to work? Empirical evidence, from visual inspection of the 11/84 I use for media transcription. Considering where I got it, this is almost certainly not factory configuration, but was almost certainly configured under DEC maintenance. Slot 1: M8190-AE KDJ11-BF Slot 2: M8637-BC MSV11-JB Slot 3: M8637-DF MSV11-JD Point of interest: I got this system when it was decommissioned from production work, in 2004. The other /84 is sitting behind some of my Spousal Equivalent's craft stuff, so I couldn't check. I do not move her toys uninvited. :^) Doc From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Sun May 27 06:47:14 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 12:47:14 +0100 Subject: Depth of Focus (was: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ In-Reply-To: <465930CF.B0C7B425@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> <20070526141439.P66030@shell.lmi.net> <465930CF.B0C7B425@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <246E76CA-160A-4A66-9E55-5ED997AFF9A3@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 27 May 2007, at 08:19, Brent Hilpert wrote: > ... I realised the resolution of even low end cameras these days > was more than adequate for the task, decent electronics being > inexpensive; but > suspected that on the optics end corners would get cut ... I believe this is where non-brand models often fall short - it's worth doing a little homework on the optics of models you're interested in, to see what the camera buffs say. if the owner of a ?2000 12mp digital SLR says they use a particular $200 model of compact for their family snapshots then it's probably a good bet. Take, for instance, this photo showing the disassembly of a PS3. I mention this because my PS3 is one of those with the fan-noise problem :( and Google turned up this series when I was looking last night. In the article a "thumbnail" of the image is shown with the explanation that a "warranty void" sticker is removed & a screw is found underneath that. One might think that the larger 1600 x 1200 view of the image would enable that screw to be seen clearly, however that is not the case :( It is clearly out of focus. According to the EXIF this photo was actually taken with a digital camcorder - a JVC GZ-MC200 - but it's the sort of results I'd expect from a cheap lens. For me now SLR is king - I like to be able to see exactly what I'm framing and I like to be able to change lenses as needed - but I've found that even when taking eBay pictures any simple viewfinder makes a heck of a difference. I "upgraded" a couple of years ago from a cheapo Kodak to a much-newer and very much nicer Olympus with twice the megapxiels; unfortunately the Olympus had no actual physical viewfinder and holding it at arm's length to view the LCD induced so much shake the images were much much worse. If nothing else a simple viewfinder allows you to stabilise the camera by resting it against your face when taking the photo. That camera buffs are known to spend hundreds of $currency on tripods is illustration of how important stability is during the exposure period, and holding the camera at arm's length is NOT conducive to that. Stroller. From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Sun May 27 06:53:21 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 12:53:21 +0100 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 May 2007, at 00:28, Tony Duell wrote: > ... > I've also yet to see a digital camera that comes close to the > qualtiy of > results from my film cameras. I am not talking about apparent > sharpness, > that can be tweaked. I am talking about detail in the image. That suggests that either you haven't been looking very hard, or that you're using medium-format film cameras with 6cm negatives. Digital SLRs in the ?400 - ?1800 range give exceedingly fine detail. Stroller. From pechter at gmail.com Sun May 27 07:26:19 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 08:26:19 -0400 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <962676.99101.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <962676.99101.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The Remote Diagnostic modules were property of DEC and were supposed to be removed when the machine went off service contract. The machines run fine without them -- but the RS232 console connection and some other backplane cables IIRC need moving when you pull 'em. Bill On 5/26/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > > Our 11/750 didn't have one, and I don't think the > > power-up self-test > > requires it. > > > > OTOH, the DWBUA requires a UET module. > > So far, I haven't gotten far enough to find out wether > my Unibus terminator I'm using is right, but I think > it should. I think it's a M9302, it came from an > 11/84. I am having problems with the Vax though, but I > can't see them having anything to do with the Unibus. > > At powerup, I get the message ERR RAM:90, and the RD > FAIL lamp is lit on the front. I have also gotten > RAM:C0 errors, and I believe one other number. On the > RDM board (L0006) there appears to be like two dozen > 9114 RAM chips, and they're soldered to the board. I > have a couple of spare 2114's (the 9114 is the same, > from what I know) but I don't know which chip needs to > be replaced. Normally, I'd substitute one at a time, > but since the chips are soldered, that isn't much of > an option. So... any way of correlating the error > numbers to the failed chip, or do I need to just start > guessing? > > Will the machine even work without the RDM? I get the > >>> prompt and can enter commands there, and all seems > well. But when I hit ^D and get into the RDM> prompt, > keys typed don't display, and the cursor moves around, > sometimes forward a couple cells, sometimes backwards. > Enter seems to work though, giving me a new RDM> > prompt, although no other output can be generated, and > I can't seem to get back to >>> without shutting the > machine off. > > -Ian > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 27 07:54:56 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 07:54:56 -0500 Subject: digital camera capabilities In-Reply-To: <20070526120401.3C720BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> <20070526120401.3C720BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070527075308.0570d300@mail> At 07:04 AM 5/26/2007, Tim Shoppa wrote: >A Caplio RR120. JPG captures on digital cameras typically put some text >as a comment at the front of the jpeg file, containing hardware, time, date, >sometimes the shutter/aperture/flash settings, etc. Yes, it's called "EXIF". There are lots of tools to peek and poke that info. I even have one for my browser, so I can right-click on a pic on a web page and see what camera/date/settings it was taken! www.exif.org - John From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sun May 27 08:09:32 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 08:09:32 -0500 Subject: Complete success, OS/8 is up and running :) not so fast... In-Reply-To: <200705270709.l4R78pQl049080@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705270709.l4R78pQl049080@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: It's an M8315 card. I agree, the zero-page logic also does things with the bit 4 line. I'm looking into it. Whenever address bit 4 is "1", on the next increment it always clears to a "0" even though there is no carry that should cause that. I suspect the middle 7483 adder has an internal fault. On Sun, 27 May 2007 02:09:49 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> However, a little investigating quickly showed that even the most >> basic ten-word TTY check program would not deposit or run. In >> fact, when depositing or examining sequential locations I found >> the address display would increment from 0200 to 0001. 0577 would >> increment to 0400, etc. So something is wrong with address bit 4. >> I pulled all the boards from the backplane except the CPU set and >> it still does it. Now I've got to fix the hardware! Sigh. >> > >I am wondering if this has anyhting to do with the 'address in current >page / address in zero page' logic. > >Remind me as to which CPU you have. > >-tony From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun May 27 08:49:01 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <880377.77867.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Bill Pechter wrote: > The Remote Diagnostic modules were property of DEC > and were supposed to be > removed > when the machine went off service contract. I was wondering why there was a "Property of Digital Field Service" sticker on the board. I was originally thinking that it came from some field spares kit or something. > The machines run fine without them -- but the RS232 > console connection and > some other backplane cables IIRC need moving when > you pull 'em. Ah. Good to know. I might have to do that - I'll see if I can find the manual online somewhere. Fortunately, the >>> console seems to be unaffected by the bad RDM memory. Might be able to just leave it in. Now I need to find a disk or tape controller... -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 27 10:50:30 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 08:50:30 -0700 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 5/26/07, Tony Duell wrote: >>Or real madmen with a lathe/mill and a dividing head can machine it >>themselves from metal tubing ;-) > >My brother is a locksmith... he machined himself a 7-position tubular >_lockpick_... 7 feelers and a restriction collet - you sort of twist >and press in a particular motion, and the feelers eventually (60 >seconds?) slide to the right positions to open the lock. One thing >that's cooler than picking an ordinary pin-tumbler lock is that you >can take the tubular lock pick to a tubular key cutter and make a >"real" key from it. > Hi I found that just taking the lock to a locksmith and $15 was just as good. I did this for the lock on my Nicolet 1080 that was connected to the powerswitch. He made two keys for this price. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 27 12:03:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 10:03:08 -0700 Subject: MS-DOS question In-Reply-To: <465917F4.6080302@oldskool.org> References: <46586283.23629.32E3A4D6@cclist.sydex.com>, <465917F4.6080302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4659575C.1700.36A01239@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 May 2007 at 0:32, Jim Leonard wrote: > 1. Increase FILES= (what is it set to now?) > 2. Chain if at all possible (it sounds like you're going past DOS's > nominal level of recursion) That's what I thought. FILES=500 isn't an option with DOS, I think. I wonder if doing something like: job-step-1>TEMP job-step-2>>TEMP REN TEMP TARGET-FILE-1 job-step-3>TEMP job-step-4>>TEMP REN TEMP TARGET-FILE-2 ... In other words, use the same file name over and over again as the redirection target, but rename it to the real target after it's been created. I suppose that I'll just code the whole thing in CENVID if that doesn't work. Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 27 12:09:06 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 12:09:06 -0500 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <20070527113946.41fd78f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730705261525x1ef97fbbi72e1ab6794d611c3@mail.gmail.com> <20070527113946.41fd78f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <51ea77730705271009k7d32fc65ya07dbb6a5ab8d42d@mail.gmail.com> On 5/27/07, Jochen Kunz wrote: > What you want is a RQZX1 (M5977). This is a SCSI to MSCP and TMSCP > adapter. Or one of the third party equivalents. (CMD, Dilog, Emulex, > ...) OK - I've set some ebay searches to look for those. As an alternate, what are the options for MFM drives other than the DEC-labeled RD5x set? I have some other Micropolis and similar drives sitting around with similar capacities. Would they be recognized by my controller (model# not handy at the moment, sorry.) Or did the DEC MFM controllers require a certain ROM on the drives? From rtellason at verizon.net Sun May 27 12:18:57 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 13:18:57 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer inCanada, for sale In-Reply-To: <20070527105220.6CFA2BA4439@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <46593091.4BA3589E@cs.ubc.ca> <20070527105220.6CFA2BA4439@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200705271318.58982.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 27 May 2007 06:52, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > A Caplio RR120. JPG captures on digital cameras typically put some text > > > as a comment at the front of the jpeg file, containing hardware, time, > > > date, sometimes the shutter/aperture/flash settings, etc. > > > > Neat, I did an ASCII dump on the jpg and see that info now. > > Am I perhaps one of the few remaining people who look at jpeg's by doing > ASCII and octal dumps of the files? :-). I gotta admit that when I first read that I had this mental picture of that info being stuffed into the image or somesuch. The bit about the ASCII dump surprised me. And octal? What does that get you? > I am very proud of continuing to occasionally browse websites by > telnetting to port 80. Can't say I've ever tried that one, either... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 27 12:49:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 12:49:11 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS question In-Reply-To: <4659575C.1700.36A01239@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46586283.23629.32E3A4D6@cclist.sydex.com>, <465917F4.6080302@oldskool.org> <4659575C.1700.36A01239@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4659C497.2070406@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 May 2007 at 0:32, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> 1. Increase FILES= (what is it set to now?) >> 2. Chain if at all possible (it sounds like you're going past DOS's >> nominal level of recursion) > > That's what I thought. FILES=500 isn't an option with DOS, I think. > I wonder if doing something like: > > job-step-1>TEMP > job-step-2>>TEMP > REN TEMP TARGET-FILE-1 I wonder if a rename forces the batch interpreter to close any reference to the source file anyway? Are you stuck using MSDOS? e.g. 4DOS has a much better batch interpreter from what I remember and might not be crippled in the same way. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 27 13:24:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 11:24:58 -0700 Subject: MS-DOS question In-Reply-To: <4659C497.2070406@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46586283.23629.32E3A4D6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4659575C.1700.36A01239@cclist.sydex.com>, <4659C497.2070406@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46596A8A.22125.36EAFD85@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 May 2007 at 12:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > I wonder if a rename forces the batch interpreter to close any reference to > the source file anyway? That's my hope, but there's no guarantee of that. COMMAND.COM could just keep opening new handles leaving the old ones open. > Are you stuck using MSDOS? e.g. 4DOS has a much better batch interpreter from > what I remember and might not be crippled in the same way. I'm using DOS 7.01 (or something like it that hosts Win98, but I'm not running Windows) and using DOSLFN to support long file names. Does 4DOS support long file name references? I'd like to see a COMMAND.COM with lfn support and some of the handy batch extensions of Win2K, such as nested FORs. Cheers, Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 27 14:22:49 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 21:22:49 +0200 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705271009k7d32fc65ya07dbb6a5ab8d42d@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730705261525x1ef97fbbi72e1ab6794d611c3@mail.gmail.com> <20070527113946.41fd78f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <51ea77730705271009k7d32fc65ya07dbb6a5ab8d42d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070527212249.229c9d63.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 27 May 2007 12:09:06 -0500 "Jason T" wrote: > As an alternate, what are the options for MFM drives other than the > DEC-labeled RD5x set? Have a look at "third-party-disks.txt". You know about "pdp11-field-guide.txt"? And, as already noted: Most likely an ESDI controller + disk is cheaper then a QBus SCSI adapter and does a good job. I use two Dilog ESDI MSCP controlers, a DQ686 in a MV III and a DQ696 in a PDP-11/73. They work really well. If you want something funny look for a Fujitsu Eagle and a Emulex QD33, accompanied by a Emulex TC13 controled Fujitsu M2442A or the like. :-) BTW: I have a nice M2442A free for local pickup in Germany... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 27 14:29:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 14:29:11 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS question In-Reply-To: <46596A8A.22125.36EAFD85@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46586283.23629.32E3A4D6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4659575C.1700.36A01239@cclist.sydex.com>, <4659C497.2070406@yahoo.co.uk> <46596A8A.22125.36EAFD85@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4659DC07.1010907@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm using DOS 7.01 (or something like it that hosts Win98, but I'm > not running Windows) and using DOSLFN to support long file names. > Does 4DOS support long file name references? Yes, it would seem that it does - from the install readme for v7.50: When installing 4DOS under Windows 95/98 we recommend that you do NOT use a "long" directory name. If you do, you will have to know and use the equivalent short name to load 4DOS in CONFIG.SYS; it's easier to simply use a short name from the beginning. (This is not a 4DOS limitation. It's because DOS, which starts before Windows 95/98 and loads the primary command processor, cannot handle long file names. While 4DOS fully supports long file names, to make DOS work well it is best to install 4DOS in a directory with a short name.) Grab a copy from http://www.jpsoft.com/ftp/free/4dos750.exe Or if you're feeling insane, grab the source from http://www.4dos.hit.bg and build it yourself :-) > I'd like to see a COMMAND.COM with lfn support and some of the handy > batch extensions of Win2K, such as nested FORs. I believe that the 4DOS batch extensions were about as powerful as it ever got for MS platforms (short of switching to something like Perl). It always amazed me at just how limited the standard MSDOS / NT shell batch language was, but then I got spoiled by UNIX platforms... cheers Jules From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sun May 27 14:51:14 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 12:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DLT 80 tapes Message-ID: <222928.69277.qm@web56212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi, does anyone have any spare/unused ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sun May 27 14:52:54 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 12:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DLT 80 Tapes Message-ID: <319692.20272.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi, does anyone have any DLT 80 tapes the 40GB (80GB compressed) version. I have a HP Storedge backup unit I'd like to start using, having some trouble finding reasonably priced tapes. Thanks. Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 27 15:58:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 13:58:37 -0700 Subject: MS-DOS question In-Reply-To: <4659DC07.1010907@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46586283.23629.32E3A4D6@cclist.sydex.com>, <46596A8A.22125.36EAFD85@cclist.sydex.com>, <4659DC07.1010907@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46598E8D.2751.3777A6EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 May 2007 at 14:29, Jules Richardson wrote: > Grab a copy from http://www.jpsoft.com/ftp/free/4dos750.exe > > Or if you're feeling insane, grab the source from http://www.4dos.hit.bg and > build it yourself :-) Thanks, I may do that. My recollection from using 4DOS in the "olden" (DOS 4.01) times was that there was a considerable number of incompatibilities with programs expecting COMMAND.COM. Maybe it's time to revisit it. > I believe that the 4DOS batch extensions were about as powerful as it ever got > for MS platforms (short of switching to something like Perl). It always amazed > me at just how limited the standard MSDOS / NT shell batch language was, but > then I got spoiled by UNIX platforms... I've considered using a version of bash for MS-DOS, but there are enough differences (such as the interpretation of command lines with wildcards) that it'd throw a monkey wrench into anything expecting COMMAND.COM rules. For doing strange things, I can recommend CENVID and (for Win32) CENWIN. Essentially an interpreted C dialect tied into the DOS/Windows environment. I believe it's in the SIMTEL library--but no source code. Cheers, Chuck > > cheers > > Jules From spc at conman.org Sun May 27 16:00:39 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 17:00:39 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer inCanada, for sale In-Reply-To: <46593091.4BA3589E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4657F1F0.649993B9@cs.ubc.ca> <20070526120401.3C720BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <46593091.4BA3589E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20070527210039.GB30556@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Brent Hilpert once stated: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > A Caplio RR120. JPG captures on digital cameras typically put some text > > as a comment at the front of the jpeg file, containing hardware, time, date, > > sometimes the shutter/aperture/flash settings, etc. > > Neat, I did an ASCII dump on the jpg and see that info now. You might want to search the net for a program called JHead. You can use it to extract the various sections (like comments, and thumbnails) out of JPGs. It's ANSI C so it should compile on just about anything. -spc (I use it to strip out comments, EXIF information and thumbnails before uploading pictures for the web---usually cuts the file size down by 12K or so ... ) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 27 16:39:22 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 22:39:22 +0100 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <51973BF4-E738-456C-AF6A-7B0105E6148D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 27/5/07 02:11, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On May 26, 2007, at 7:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> The standard DEC key is stamped XX2247 (I have on on my regular >>> keyring). You can either try to get one from a DEC enthusiast, or >>> for >> >> So do I :-) > > Same here. I think that's the badge of a true DECaholic. *raises hand* -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 27 16:56:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 22:56:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: from "Stroller" at May 27, 7 12:53:21 pm Message-ID: > > > On 27 May 2007, at 00:28, Tony Duell wrote: > > ... > > I've also yet to see a digital camera that comes close to the =20 > > qualtiy of > > results from my film cameras. I am not talking about apparent =20 > > sharpness, > > that can be tweaked. I am talking about detail in the image. > > That suggests that either you haven't been looking very hard, or that =20 > you're using medium-format film cameras with 6cm negatives. Err no. I don;'t own a 6*6 camera (although I can borrow my father's). I have a couple of _large format_ (5*4" sheet film) cameras. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 27 16:50:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 22:50:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 27, 7 03:08:09 am Message-ID: > > On 5/26/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > Or real madmen with a lathe/mill and a dividing head can machine it > > themselves from metal tubing ;-) > > My brother is a locksmith... he machined himself a 7-position tubular > _lockpick_... 7 feelers and a restriction collet - you sort of twist I've seen pictures of them and know the principle. > and press in a particular motion, and the feelers eventually (60 > seconds?) slide to the right positions to open the lock. One thing > that's cooler than picking an ordinary pin-tumbler lock is that you > can take the tubular lock pick to a tubular key cutter and make a > "real" key from it. Or measure the depths of the feelers to determine the key code. Of coruser if (as with DEC equipment) you can remove the lock without picking it,. you can often dismantle the lock from the rear, extract the tumbllers and measure them with a micrometer. And then cut the key from that data. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 27 16:39:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 22:39:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <51973BF4-E738-456C-AF6A-7B0105E6148D@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 26, 7 09:11:44 pm Message-ID: > > On May 26, 2007, at 7:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> The standard DEC key is stamped XX2247 (I have on on my regular > >> keyring). You can either try to get one from a DEC enthusiast, or > >> for > > > > So do I :-) > > Same here. I think that's the badge of a true DECaholic. What I didn't say was that the 'fob' of my keyring is a DEC Unibus grant continuity card (the single-height one, with a hole drilled through it at the non-finger end to put the keyring thorugh). I've actually used it once as a grant card... -tony From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun May 27 18:41:31 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 16:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <90144.2820.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > >> The standard DEC key is stamped XX2247 (I have > on on my regular > > >> keyring). > > > So do I :-) > > > > Same here. I think that's the badge of a true > DECaholic. > > What I didn't say was that the 'fob' of my keyring > is a DEC Unibus grant > continuity card (the single-height one, with a hole > drilled through it at > the non-finger end to put the keyring thorugh). I've > actually used it > once as a grant card... Hehe - you've got me beat, I've just got an old 30 pin SIMM on mine. It started off as an old 256k SIMM, but long ago became a zero k SIMM as all the chips fell off, one at a time (along with the little surface mount deglitching caps). -Ian From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun May 27 19:49:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 17:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <3afee7520705262025n448f46bfrccc22314bf39d31a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <782546.94597.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> somehow I fail to see the logic of replacing an entire p/s when 3 minutes of soldering would alleviate the problem... --- Erik Klein wrote: > I pulled out my "extra" Apple /// for a test run > today in preparation > for selling it. It worked great but after a bit the > power supply > started smoking. I pulled it to find that a cap has > blown and shot > oil all over the place. > > Rather than repair it I'm looking to replace it with > another. > > Does anyone have an Apple /// power supply they'd > part with? > > -- > Erik Klein > www.vintage-computer.com > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum > The Vintage Computer Forums > ____________________________________________________________________________________You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 27 20:39:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 19:39:56 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model III available for cost of shipping Message-ID: It has no peripherals, is dusty from being stored in a garage (although it appears to have been kept dry), and is missing the following keycaps: V, M and bottom-right key on the numeric keypad. The case says "48K RAM". Other than the missing keys it appears to be in good condition. I have not powered it up, but it was reported working the last time it was used. Shipping would be from US ZIP 84106 (Salt Lake City, UT) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 27 20:41:50 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 19:41:50 -0600 Subject: Columbia Data Products VP portable free for cost of shipping Message-ID: It has no keyboard, dual floppy diskettes, power cable, 7" monitor. It has not been powered up. It is slightly dusty from having been stored in a garage. Cosmetically it looks in good conition. It was reported working the last time it was used. You can see pictures of this model of computer here: Shipping is from US ZIP 84106 (Salt Lake City, UT) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From sethm at loomcom.com Sun May 27 21:09:36 2007 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 19:09:36 -0700 Subject: The Flexowriter Has Landed Message-ID: <46CC991D-E19A-4F45-B57D-DC3542F1232A@loomcom.com> Hello folks, Yesterday I drove down to Glendale California to pick up my Friden Flexowriter. It's in fairly good shape, but will definitely need some serious TLC before I even think about plugging it in. I've put up some initial photos here (caution: the thumbnails link to very large files). http://www.loomcom.com/junk/friden/friden.html It's a model SPS-C. I'll need to do some digging to find the serial number and determine when it was built. This appears to be an upper-case only model. The printable character set on the type heads can be seen here: http://www.loomcom.com/junk/ friden/friden-Pages/Image7.html (around 2.5MB) The upper-case letters all print "~", apparently. The upper case numbers print the corresponding typewriter characters. I'm sure I'll have more once I open it up and start poking around at the internals. In the meantime, if you have a Flexowriter, would you mind letting me know what your model number is? Thanks! -Seth From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 27 22:23:07 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 20:23:07 -0700 Subject: Storing Hard Drives Message-ID: Do temperatures need to be a concern when storing hard drives? I'm looking at a temperature range for storage of about 50-110 (obviously over the course of a year). I've been keeping my collection of drives at home, but think it's about time to start thinking about putting them into storage. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 27 22:25:50 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 20:25:50 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <782546.94597.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <782546.94597.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:49 PM -0700 5/27/07, Chris M wrote: >--- Erik Klein >wrote: > > Rather than repair it I'm looking to replace it with > > another. > > > > Does anyone have an Apple /// power supply they'd >> part with? >somehow I fail to see the logic of replacing an entire >p/s when 3 minutes of soldering would alleviate the >problem... Not to mention that Apple ///'s are rare enough these days that I'd hate to see one sacrificed that another might live. Though this makes me wonder if this is what is wrong with the /// I have. It was smoked before I got it, I rescued it from the trash. I knew it was smoked when I got it so have never bothered to even look at it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun May 27 22:32:06 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 22:32:06 -0500 Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465A4D36.2050307@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Do temperatures need to be a concern when storing hard drives? I'm > looking at a temperature range for storage of about 50-110 (obviously > over the course of a year). I've been keeping my collection of drives > at home, but think it's about time to start thinking about putting them > into storage. If you can find manufacturer's datasheets, they almost always give storage environment specs. I store disks in my garage, which gets down to ~40F and up to ~130F. It doesn't seem to raise the failure rate. Doc From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sun May 27 22:43:40 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 20:43:40 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <782546.94597.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3afee7520705262025n448f46bfrccc22314bf39d31a@mail.gmail.com> <782546.94597.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3afee7520705272043k2e47287dncf005508ab33ccdf@mail.gmail.com> On 5/27/07, Chris M wrote: > somehow I fail to see the logic of replacing an entire > p/s when 3 minutes of soldering would alleviate the > problem... Somehow that doesn't surprise me. . . -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sun May 27 22:46:06 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 20:46:06 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <782546.94597.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3afee7520705272046o481b9e6aqfa99dadfbcd93506@mail.gmail.com> On 5/27/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Not to mention that Apple ///'s are rare enough these days that I'd > hate to see one sacrificed that another might live. I'm not asking anyone to pull a PS from a working system. I'm hoping someone has a service spare around or a /// with a bad motherboard or something similar. There's nothing wrong with taking two broken boxes and making one good one out of them if that's possible. -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 28 00:23:04 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 01:23:04 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465A6738.2090009@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 27 May 2007, at 00:28, Tony Duell wrote: >>> ... >>> I've also yet to see a digital camera that comes close to the =20 >>> qualtiy of >>> results from my film cameras. I am not talking about apparent =20 >>> sharpness, >>> that can be tweaked. I am talking about detail in the image. >> That suggests that either you haven't been looking very hard, or that =20 >> you're using medium-format film cameras with 6cm negatives. > > Err no. I don;'t own a 6*6 camera (although I can borrow my father's). I > have a couple of _large format_ (5*4" sheet film) cameras. In any case there are some decent digital backs (decent as in full frame sensor) for 6x6 cameras. They're not what I would call inexpensive, though. Certainly not in the same price range as a decent medium format film back. Peace... Sridhar From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon May 28 05:20:00 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 12:20:00 +0200 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 References: <881032.54403.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9C7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Ethan Dicks Verzonden: za 26-05-2007 22:34 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: More with the Vax 11/750 On 5/26/07, Bill Pechter wrote: > The 11/750 used a special Unibus Exerciser Terminator which IIRC had some > diag registers in it. > I think it was an M9313. > > Google shows them available from a lot of resellers... > I know the diags used them.... don't know about the power-up self test. Our 11/750 didn't have one, and I don't think the power-up self-test requires it. OTOH, the DWBUA requires a UET module. -ethan ------------ ... just back from a very succesfull trip to the UK and catching up on 610 posts since Thursday 4:30 am (when I left home) ... I checked my working (= booting and running VAX/VMS) VAX-11/750. Next to the VAX backplane is a UNIBUS backplane and the last slot has an M9312. Sorry, I cannot look inside to see what is on the M9312. I suspect *no* ROMs (they wouldnot work), but perhaps interesting is to see how the jumpers are set. have fun, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon May 28 06:41:12 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 06:41:12 -0500 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <3afee7520705272046o481b9e6aqfa99dadfbcd93506@mail.gmail.com> References: Message-ID: <200705281043.l4SAhUp2024884@hosting.monisys.ca> > There's nothing wrong with taking two broken boxes and making one good > one out of them if that's possible. Sure there is ... if there's a good possibility that you could have taken one broken box and made a good one, or better yet, taken two broken boxes and made two good ones! There's nothing wrong with swapping parts etc. to diagnose and get the first one running, however unless the components you need are unobtainium, why not get the second working as well - Especially with something like an Apple /// which is not all that common. (And having a working one as a reference, the second should be pretty easy to diagnose). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 28 06:05:56 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 07:05:56 -0400 Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070528110556.6AD7FBA443A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Do temperatures need to be a concern when storing hard drives? I'm > looking at a temperature range for storage of about 50-110 (obviously > over the course of a year). I've been keeping my collection of > drives at home, but think it's about time to start thinking about > putting them into storage. Some drives have rubber parts that will degrade more rapidly in high-heat, high-ozone environments. (Can you hear me thinking "RD53"? Although actually lots of MFM and other drives are similar inside.) Temperature/humidity changes that can cause condensation to form are not the best thing either. This may be much less of a problem with smaller modern drives with less thermal mass. Tim. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 28 09:16:13 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 11:16:13 -0300 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply References: <3afee7520705262025n448f46bfrccc22314bf39d31a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <06b101c7a132$c36f8190$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Rather than repair it I'm looking to replace it with another. Erik, this is an easy repair! - Change all diodes or rectifier bridge on the input side of the PSU - Change BOTH the big caps of the input side of the PSU I'm sure you can do that if you have minimal electronics' knowledge. You can get all the parts from an old AT or ATX PC supply. Good luck! Alexandre From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon May 28 09:32:56 2007 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 16:32:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Q about a DEC board Message-ID: <16210.88.211.153.27.1180362776.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello All, Anybody familiar or does know something about the M3112 from DEC? It says 'NICSA CONSOLE' and is a hex card and has a metal bracket with a rotary switch commonly seen on the later PDP's, 2 buttons, a couple of LED's and 4 7-segment displays. There is also a DB25 connector on the bracket, probably for a serial line? Thanks, Ed From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 28 11:44:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 09:44:19 -0700 Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <20070528110556.6AD7FBA443A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: , <20070528110556.6AD7FBA443A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <465AA473.30305.3BB52B3D@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2007 at 7:05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Temperature/humidity changes that can cause condensation to form > are not the best thing either. This may be much less of a problem > with smaller modern drives with less thermal mass. I suspect that much of this problem could be alleviated during storage by hermetically sealing the drives in plastic bags (can you say "Seal A Meal"?) during storage--although one might have to deal with residual moisture in the air that's present during sealing. Perhaps adding some dessicant to the bag might help. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 28 12:50:35 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 10:50:35 -0700 Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <20070528110556.6AD7FBA443A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20070528110556.6AD7FBA443A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: At 7:05 AM -0400 5/28/07, Tim Shoppa wrote: >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> Do temperatures need to be a concern when storing hard drives? I'm >> looking at a temperature range for storage of about 50-110 (obviously >> over the course of a year). I've been keeping my collection of >> drives at home, but think it's about time to start thinking about >> putting them into storage. > >Some drives have rubber parts that will degrade more rapidly in >high-heat, high-ozone environments. (Can you hear me thinking "RD53"? >Although actually lots of MFM and other drives are similar inside.) I think my RD54's will be staying where they're at... Unfortunately I'm not sure if my collection of RD52's and dead RD53's is in my parents garage (it might have never been moved), or up in one of my storage units. Both can get fairly hot in the summer. >Temperature/humidity changes that can cause condensation to form >are not the best thing either. This may be much less of a problem >with smaller modern drives with less thermal mass. If condensation was a problem where I'm thinking of sticking a pile of drives, then I wouldn't be storing stuff there :^) Basically all of the drives I was thinking of putting up in storage are 3.5x1" or 3.5x1.6" drives. I've a good number of IDE drives, but most would be SCSI HD's. Zane Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 28 12:54:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 18:54:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: <465A6738.2090009@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at May 28, 7 01:23:04 am Message-ID: > > Err no. I don;'t own a 6*6 camera (although I can borrow my father's). I > > have a couple of _large format_ (5*4" sheet film) cameras. > > In any case there are some decent digital backs (decent as in full frame > sensor) for 6x6 cameras. They're not what I would call inexpensive, though. Ineed there are. There are also digital backs for 5*4 and 10*8 l;arge format camaras. I am not convinced the results for eitehr are better (or even as good) as the equivalent film, though. > > Certainly not in the same price range as a decent medium format film back. A factor of at least 100* :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 28 12:51:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 18:51:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <3afee7520705272043k2e47287dncf005508ab33ccdf@mail.gmail.com> from "Erik Klein" at May 27, 7 08:43:40 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/27/07, Chris M wrote: > > somehow I fail to see the logic of replacing an entire > > p/s when 3 minutes of soldering would alleviate the > > problem... > > Somehow that doesn't surprise me. . . I thought I was the person who always propsed component-level rapair and generally got flamed for it... But perhaps you can explain why soldering in a new capacitor, which is presumable a standard part available from just about any decent electronics suppier, is mroe work than tracking down a somwwhat rare PSU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 28 13:03:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 19:03:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <465AA473.30305.3BB52B3D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 28, 7 09:44:19 am Message-ID: > > On 28 May 2007 at 7:05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Temperature/humidity changes that can cause condensation to form > > are not the best thing either. This may be much less of a problem > > with smaller modern drives with less thermal mass. > > I suspect that much of this problem could be alleviated during > storage by hermetically sealing the drives in plastic bags (can you I would then be worried about static electricity build-up on the bags (rememebrm the field inside a hollow _conductor_ is zero, but it has to be a conductor). You don't want to zap a chip on the hard drive's logic board, or worse still damage the head or media. Maype put them inside an antistatic bag, then inside the 'dry bag'. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 28 13:12:03 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 14:12:03 -0400 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705271009k7d32fc65ya07dbb6a5ab8d42d@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730705261525x1ef97fbbi72e1ab6794d611c3@mail.gmail.com> <20070527113946.41fd78f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <51ea77730705271009k7d32fc65ya07dbb6a5ab8d42d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1FC28117-E115-44B0-AB14-BF165D031304@neurotica.com> On May 27, 2007, at 1:09 PM, Jason T wrote: > As an alternate, what are the options for MFM drives other than the > DEC-labeled RD5x set? I have some other Micropolis and similar drives > sitting around with similar capacities. Would they be recognized by > my controller (model# not handy at the moment, sorry.) Or did the DEC > MFM controllers require a certain ROM on the drives? I have taken bog-standard drives (of the correct make/model) and used them with success on DEC RQDXx controllers. The mapping: RD50 Seagate ST-506 5MB full height RD51 Seagate ST-412 10MB full height RD52 Quantum Q540 32MB full height RD53 Micropolis 1325 71MB full height RD54 Maxtor XT2190 159MB full height RD31 Seagate ST225 21MB half height RD32 Seagate ST251 42MB half height Note that the larger drives are not supported by the older controllers, etc. You'll generally be in good shape with an RQDX3. If you don't have one, let me know; I must have twenty of them here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 28 13:24:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 13:24:17 -0500 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <782546.94597.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465B1E51.9000708@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:49 PM -0700 5/27/07, Chris M wrote: >> --- Erik Klein >> wrote: > >> > Rather than repair it I'm looking to replace it with >> > another. >> > >> > Does anyone have an Apple /// power supply they'd >>> part with? > >> somehow I fail to see the logic of replacing an entire >> p/s when 3 minutes of soldering would alleviate the >> problem... > > Not to mention that Apple ///'s are rare enough these days Which reminds me, I need to fix mine in order to get rid of it (thankfully it's just an AC-side noise supression cap that's gone - the machine's otherwise fine... fixing it's just been one of those round tuit moments :-) The cap let out a huge amount of dense smoke (as they tend to do) - enough that it hung around long enough for me to unscrew and remove the supply and take a photo of it. (http://www.patooie.com/temp/apple_3_cap_explosion_sm.jpg) Q.: Anyone know what the going rate is for a ///, Monitor ///, original media + docs, and a pair of ProFile drives? I'd always got the feeling that Apple /// systems were in that oddball category of "rare but totally without value", but maybe that's changed. cheers Jules From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 28 13:51:28 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 13:51:28 -0500 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465B24B0.8060808@pacbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 5/27/07, Chris M wrote: >>> somehow I fail to see the logic of replacing an entire >>> p/s when 3 minutes of soldering would alleviate the >>> problem... >> Somehow that doesn't surprise me. . . > > I thought I was the person who always propsed component-level rapair and > generally got flamed for it... Let's not get into that again. > But perhaps you can explain why soldering in a new capacitor, which is > presumable a standard part available from just about any decent > electronics suppier, is mroe work than tracking down a somwwhat rare PSU. Tony, you have lots of time on your hands. Many people here have a job, a wife, and kids that take priority over any hobby activity. You have space to set up a nice workshop, and not everybody is so well supplied as you. If Eric can send an email, proffer some money, receive a power supply in mail, plug in the new power supply and go, I can easily imagine it takes less of his time than to fix it. ChrisM said it would take three minutes to fix the power supply. That is horse byproduct. It takes my soldering iron more than three minutes to get hot. :-) Many of us don't have a well supplied junk box, so it still takes a trip to an electronics shop or a web order to get the replacement. Disassembling the power supply, cleaning up the mess from the faulty cap(s), unsoldering, soldering in the new one, reassembling the case ... it all adds up. I can't speak for Eric, but I can easily imagine making a similar choice. From ats at offog.org Mon May 28 14:09:15 2007 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 20:09:15 +0100 Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Mon, 28 May 2007 19:03:41 +0100 (BST)") References: Message-ID: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > I would then be worried about static electricity build-up on the > bags It's not terribly hard to get hold of conductive "antistatic" bags. All the hard disks I've bought lately have come in a conductive bag with a sachet of dessicant, so presumably the hard disk manufacturers are happy with that as a medium-term storage approach... -- Adam Sampson From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 28 14:39:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 12:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <06b101c7a132$c36f8190$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <3afee7520705262025n448f46bfrccc22314bf39d31a@mail.gmail.com> <06b101c7a132$c36f8190$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20070528123859.G43646@shell.lmi.net> > I'm sure you can do that if you have minimal electronics' knowledge. You > can get all the parts from an old AT or ATX PC supply. It would be wrong to cannibalize an Apple ///. But it's perfectly OK to cannibalize ATs. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 28 14:53:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 12:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070528125211.O43646@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 May 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Ineed there are. There are also digital backs for 5*4 and 10*8 l;arge > format camaras. I am not convinced the results for eitehr are better (or > even as good) as the equivalent film, though. Absolutely not as good as the equivalent film size. But, I am willing to concede that an 8x10 digital back could outperform my Minox. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 28 14:56:52 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 12:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465B1E51.9000708@yahoo.co.uk> References: <782546.94597.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <465B1E51.9000708@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070528125525.T43646@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 May 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Q.: Anyone know what the going rate is for a ///, Monitor ///, original media > + docs, and a pair of ProFile drives? I'd always got the feeling that Apple > /// systems were in that oddball category of "rare but totally without value", > but maybe that's changed. . . . just like the Lisa and the Edsel used to be From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 28 15:39:38 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 13:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <465AA473.30305.3BB52B3D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20070528110556.6AD7FBA443A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <465AA473.30305.3BB52B3D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 May 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 May 2007 at 7:05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Temperature/humidity changes that can cause condensation to form > > are not the best thing either. This may be much less of a problem > > with smaller modern drives with less thermal mass. > > I suspect that much of this problem could be alleviated during > storage by hermetically sealing the drives in plastic bags (can you > say "Seal A Meal"?) during storage--although one might have to deal > with residual moisture in the air that's present during sealing. > Perhaps adding some dessicant to the bag might help. Gun shops sell plastic bags designed to deal with this kind of problem with firearm storage. Dessicant packets are also available. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From emu at e-bbes.com Mon May 28 16:36:10 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 15:36:10 -0600 Subject: DEC stuff in denver area Message-ID: <465B4B4A.1070905@e-bbes.com> Hi all, spring cleaning again, so, anybody in desparate need of some : rainbows (for parts) decstations, vaxstations (3100/xxx) terminals vt220, vt320 ... PROs (325, 350 for parts ...) BA23 boxes 9-track tape drives (ts05, ciphers) Pickup only, please contact me off-list. Stuff is in CO 80439 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 28 16:43:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 22:43:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465B24B0.8060808@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at May 28, 7 01:51:28 pm Message-ID: > > But perhaps you can explain why soldering in a new capacitor, which is > > presumable a standard part available from just about any decent > > electronics suppier, is mroe work than tracking down a somwwhat rare PSU. > > Tony, you have lots of time on your hands. Many people here have a job, > a wife, and kids that take priority over any hobby activity. You have > space to set up a nice workshop, and not everybody is so well supplied > as you. If Eric can send an email, proffer some money, receive a power > supply in mail, plug in the new power supply and go, I can easily > imagine it takes less of his time than to fix it. _If_ that PSU was easily available, I could agree with this. But it isn't. It's likely to take considerable time and effort to track one down, I think. Time that could equally be spent on repairing the old one. > > ChrisM said it would take three minutes to fix the power supply. That > is horse byproduct. It takes my soldering iron more than three minutes > to get hot. :-) Many of us don't have a well supplied junk box, so it Get a decent soldering iron :-) More seriously, do what just about anyone else does. Flip the soldering iron on, and then start dismantling the machine to remove the PSU module. By the time you've got the PCB exposed, the iron should be up to temperature. > still takes a trip to an electronics shop or a web order to get the > replacement. Disassembling the power supply, cleaning up the mess from > the faulty cap(s), unsoldering, soldering in the new one, reassembling > the case ... it all adds up. As does tracking down a replacement supply, going to collect it (or going down to the Post Office because they tried to deliver it when you were out). fitting it, etc. And then finding the new one also has bad capacitor trouble (Remember these capacitors generally fail from old age, any Apple /// supply is likely to be as old now). -tony From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Mon May 28 17:12:14 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 23:12:14 +0100 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A0138E5-9F1D-45EE-82D0-8C58C077B528@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 28 May 2007, at 18:54, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Err no. I don;'t own a 6*6 camera (although I can borrow my >>> father's). I >>> have a couple of _large format_ (5*4" sheet film) cameras. >> >> In any case there are some decent digital backs (decent as in full >> frame >> sensor) for 6x6 cameras. They're not what I would call >> inexpensive, though. > > Ineed there are. There are also digital backs for 5*4 and 10*8 l;arge > format camaras. I am not convinced the results for eitehr are > better (or > even as good) as the equivalent film, though. Well, the market for digital in such large format is hardly large. IIRC a 12mp SLR with 35mm-sized sensor is capable of producing A3 at 300dpi. For most applications I don't see that even posters (A2, A1) would justify more resolution than 12mp - you would have to be looking pretty close to tell the difference. It is the consumer market driving digital camera sensor development - take a look at the results from the APS-C-sized sensors in $650 dSLRs. Stroller. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 28 18:25:09 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 19:25:09 -0400 Subject: Q about a DEC board In-Reply-To: <16210.88.211.153.27.1180362776.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <16210.88.211.153.27.1180362776.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 5/28/07, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hello All, > > Anybody familiar or does know something about the M3112 from DEC? > > It says 'NICSA CONSOLE' and is a hex card and has a metal bracket > with a rotary switch commonly seen on the later PDP's, 2 buttons, > a couple of LED's and 4 7-segment displays. There is also a DB25 > connector on the bracket, probably for a serial line? Megan Gentry's Field Guide ( http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt ) describes it as: M3112 DRCSA U Console boot terminator (DEC/DLC/DRCSA) Sounds like some sort of comms gear, but I am unfamilar with it. -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 28 18:39:27 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 16:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465B24B0.8060808@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <324820.83940.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Battle wrote: > > But perhaps you can explain why soldering in a new > capacitor, which is > > presumable a standard part available from just > about any decent > > electronics suppier, is mroe work than tracking > down a somwwhat rare PSU. > > Tony, you have lots of time on your hands. Many > people here have a job, > a wife, and kids that take priority over any hobby > activity. You have > space to set up a nice workshop, and not everybody > is so well supplied > as you. If Eric can send an email, proffer some > money, receive a power > supply in mail, plug in the new power supply and go, > I can easily > imagine it takes less of his time than to fix it. OK, here's a compromise: someone with loads of time on their hands, no wife, no kids, no job, no cats, no turtles, exchange the _catastrophic_ Apple 3 p/s for a working one. Then proceed to *exchange* the failed $.30 component, which in no way could take more then 15 minutes (assuming you know how to get a p/s out of a puter - part of the work is already done, gotcha there), then proceed to stick your *newly working* p/s back in yer old puter, and everyone will be happy as a pig in horse by product. And in the midst of this convenient exchange, you get to support the postal system even. Mark that up as a charitable donation on yer next year's tax return I guess. > ChrisM said it would take three minutes to fix the > power supply. That > is horse byproduct. It takes my soldering iron more > than three minutes > to get hot. :-) Many of us don't have a well > supplied junk box, so it > still takes a trip to an electronics shop or a web > order to get the > replacement. Disassembling the power supply, > cleaning up the mess from > the faulty cap(s), unsoldering, soldering in the new > one, reassembling > the case ... it all adds up. You have to disassembled/reassemble the case regardless, so subtract that from all the time that seems to be adding up. And chances are you wouldn't even have to disassemble to p/s. Simply grasp the cap with needle nose pliers, heat the leads, and pull. You could put one is just as easily more then likely. And as for cleaning up the big mess the failed cap left behind, I think you'll be spending more time cleaning up the horse poopies you left behind LOL LOL LOL > I can't speak for Eric, but I can easily imagine > making a similar choice. When you have a part that's "95%" functional (so to speak) in your hands??? You'd blow $15+ dollars on shipping an unusual part, assuming you could find it? Plus the cost of the replacement? Suddenly I'm smelling horse poopies everywhere. ____________________________________________________________________________________Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 28 18:54:46 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 16:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga scan doublers/flicker fixers Message-ID: <518924.72533.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> is anyone familiar with this devices? There seems to have been a few on the market back in the day. Here one on geekBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih= 005&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item= 150125339517&rd=1&rd=1 Seems relatively simple: memory/buffer (as Tony Duell described sometime ago), and other essential (hopefully discrete) logic. Does anyone know of schematics for any of these things? I suppose I could figure out how to build one *eventually*, just seems easier to mimic a known design, or at least to study one. ____________________________________________________________________________________Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 28 19:09:04 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 17:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) Message-ID: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/100-lbs-SCRAP-MEMORY-FOR-GOLD- RECOVERY-RAM-1982-SUN_W0QQitemZ260121427754QQihZ01 6QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem A bit steep, but it's 100 lbs. worth! ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 28 19:16:56 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 17:16:56 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465B24B0.8060808@pacbell.net> References: <465B24B0.8060808@pacbell.net> Message-ID: At 1:51 PM -0500 5/28/07, Jim Battle wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: >>>On 5/27/07, Chris M wrote: >>>>somehow I fail to see the logic of replacing an entire >>>>p/s when 3 minutes of soldering would alleviate the >>>>problem... >>>Somehow that doesn't surprise me. . . >> >>I thought I was the person who always propsed component-level >>rapair and generally got flamed for it... > >Let's not get into that again. > >>But perhaps you can explain why soldering in a new capacitor, which >>is presumable a standard part available from just about any decent >>electronics suppier, is mroe work than tracking down a somwwhat >>rare PSU. > >Tony, you have lots of time on your hands. Many people here have a >job, a wife, and kids that take priority over any hobby activity. >You have space to set up a nice workshop, and not everybody is so >well supplied as you. If Eric can send an email, proffer some >money, receive a power supply in mail, plug in the new power supply >and go, I can easily imagine it takes less of his time than to fix >it. > >ChrisM said it would take three minutes to fix the power supply. >That is horse byproduct. It takes my soldering iron more than three >minutes to get hot. :-) Many of us don't have a well supplied junk >box, so it still takes a Time to get a better soldering iron. >trip to an electronics shop or a web order to get the replacement. >Disassembling the power supply, cleaning up the mess from the faulty >cap(s), unsoldering, soldering in the new one, reassembling the case >... it all adds up. > >I can't speak for Eric, but I can easily imagine making a similar choice. Typically I'd look for a replacement part, but for something as rare as an Apple /// power supply I'll break out the soldering iron, tools, instruments, and figure out what parts I need to order up in order to repair it myself. I'm sorry, this is a case where suggesting you fix it yourself, rather than cannibalizing another system (working or not) is a valid suggestion. This sounds like a pretty easy fix, and there are people here on the list that are more than willing to help talk the less electronically inclined members through something such as this. This isn't something like trying to do surface mount chips, it is very basic soldering. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 28 19:46:31 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 17:46:31 -0700 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <1FC28117-E115-44B0-AB14-BF165D031304@neurotica.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730705261525x1ef97fbbi72e1ab6794d611c3@mail.gmail.com> <20070527113946.41fd78f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <51ea77730705271009k7d32fc65ya07dbb6a5ab8d42d@mail.gmail.com> <1FC28117-E115-44B0-AB14-BF165D031304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 2:12 PM -0400 5/28/07, Dave McGuire wrote: >On May 27, 2007, at 1:09 PM, Jason T wrote: >>As an alternate, what are the options for MFM drives other than the >>DEC-labeled RD5x set? I have some other Micropolis and similar drives >>sitting around with similar capacities. Would they be recognized by >>my controller (model# not handy at the moment, sorry.) Or did the DEC >>MFM controllers require a certain ROM on the drives? > > I have taken bog-standard drives (of the correct make/model) and >used them with success on DEC RQDXx controllers. The mapping: > > RD50 Seagate ST-506 5MB full height > RD51 Seagate ST-412 10MB full height > RD52 Quantum Q540 32MB full height > RD53 Micropolis 1325 71MB full height > RD54 Maxtor XT2190 159MB full height > RD31 Seagate ST225 21MB half height > RD32 Seagate ST251 42MB half height > > Note that the larger drives are not supported by the older >controllers, etc. You'll generally be in good shape with an RQDX3. >If you don't have one, let me know; I must have twenty of them here. While these will work, you need a way to format them. A VAXstation 2000, is a nice choice, if you can find one. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon May 28 20:19:16 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 21:19:16 -0400 Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <465AA473.30305.3BB52B3D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20070528110556.6AD7FBA443A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <465AA473.30305.3BB52B3D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <465B7F94.7040104@hawkmountain.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 May 2007 at 7:05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > >> Temperature/humidity changes that can cause condensation to form >> are not the best thing either. This may be much less of a problem >> with smaller modern drives with less thermal mass. >> > > I suspect that much of this problem could be alleviated during > storage by hermetically sealing the drives in plastic bags (can you > say "Seal A Meal"?) during storage--although one might have to deal > with residual moisture in the air that's present during sealing. > Perhaps adding some dessicant to the bag might help. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > How about vacuum sealing ? :-) long as your not trying to run it in a vacuum I'd think this would preserve rubber parts and virtually eliminate moisture. -- Curt From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 28 20:35:25 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 18:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT & T 6300 related plus some other files maybe Message-ID: <149975.1031.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> http://www5.ncr.com/support/support_drivers_patches.asp ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 28 20:35:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 18:35:47 -0700 Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <465B7F94.7040104@hawkmountain.net> References: , <465AA473.30305.3BB52B3D@cclist.sydex.com>, <465B7F94.7040104@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <465B2103.15391.3D9BBE9C@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2007 at 21:19, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > How about vacuum sealing ? :-) long as your not trying to run it in a > vacuum > I'd think this would preserve rubber parts and virtually eliminate moisture. That was my reference to "Seal a Meal". Vacuum pump and bag seamer all in one unit. Used units often be found at flea markets and at the local Goodwill store. http://www.sealameal.com/ There's also a competing system, called "Foodsaver": http://www.foodsaver.com/ Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 28 20:40:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 19:40:20 -0600 Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 28 May 2007 21:19:16 -0400. <465B7F94.7040104@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: In article <465B7F94.7040104 at hawkmountain.net>, "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: > I'd think this would preserve rubber parts and virtually eliminate moisture. Rubber parts need some ambient moisture to stay viable. Otherwise out here in the desert (Salt Lake City, UT) rubber bands wouldn't turn to crumbly bits after a few months. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 28 08:46:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 07:46:35 -0600 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <324820.83940.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <324820.83940.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465ADD3B.2020106@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > When you have a part that's "95%" functional (so to > speak) in your hands??? You'd blow $15+ dollars on > shipping an unusual part, assuming you could find it? > Plus the cost of the replacement? Suddenly I'm > smelling horse poopies everywhere. Get off this list now !!!! Give me clean air ... The other factor for repair vs replacement is your test equipment and things like a schematic. Repairing a switching power supply is one the last things I would want to do. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 28 21:06:32 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 22:06:32 -0400 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: <51973BF4-E738-456C-AF6A-7B0105E6148D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 5/27/07, Tony Duell wrote: > What I didn't say was that the 'fob' of my keyring is a DEC Unibus grant > continuity card (the single-height one, with a hole drilled through it at > the non-finger end to put the keyring thorugh). I've actually used it > once as a grant card... Nice. I may have to make one of those for my machine room. Back when I did DEC stuff 100% of the time, our 11/750 XX2247 key dangled from a t-handle hex key to open the doors - that way, no matter what, you had the right tool at hand. -ethan From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 28 21:07:20 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 23:07:20 -0300 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply References: <324820.83940.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <465ADD3B.2020106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <081101c7a196$bbafb790$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> When you have a part that's "95%" functional (so to >> speak) in your hands??? You'd blow $15+ dollars on >> shipping an unusual part, assuming you could find it? >> Plus the cost of the replacement? Suddenly I'm >> smelling horse poopies everywhere. I think you all got so much excited with that. Please be calm people... From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon May 28 21:03:17 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 03:03:17 +0100 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply References: Message-ID: <006601c7a19c$a7e855e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > _If_ that PSU was easily available, I could agree with this. But >it isn't. It's likely to take considerable time and effort to track >one down, I think.... I don't know what the situation is in the US, but here in the UK I've come across exactly *ONE* Apple /// in some 22 years of collecting.... I'd put his chances of sourcing a working replacement PSU these days at ZERO. TTFN - Pete. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 28 22:15:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 23:15:32 -0400 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730705261525x1ef97fbbi72e1ab6794d611c3@mail.gmail.com> <20070527113946.41fd78f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <51ea77730705271009k7d32fc65ya07dbb6a5ab8d42d@mail.gmail.com> <1FC28117-E115-44B0-AB14-BF165D031304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On May 28, 2007, at 8:46 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> As an alternate, what are the options for MFM drives other than the >>> DEC-labeled RD5x set? I have some other Micropolis and similar >>> drives >>> sitting around with similar capacities. Would they be recognized by >>> my controller (model# not handy at the moment, sorry.) Or did >>> the DEC >>> MFM controllers require a certain ROM on the drives? >> >> I have taken bog-standard drives (of the correct make/model) and >> used them with success on DEC RQDXx controllers. The mapping: >> >> RD50 Seagate ST-506 5MB full height >> RD51 Seagate ST-412 10MB full height >> RD52 Quantum Q540 32MB full height >> RD53 Micropolis 1325 71MB full height >> RD54 Maxtor XT2190 159MB full height >> RD31 Seagate ST225 21MB half height >> RD32 Seagate ST251 42MB half height >> >> Note that the larger drives are not supported by the older >> controllers, etc. You'll generally be in good shape with an RQDX3. >> If you don't have one, let me know; I must have twenty of them here. > > While these will work, you need a way to format them. A VAXstation > 2000, is a nice choice, if you can find one. Yes. I mentioned here awhile back that I was once told, by a now- former DEC employee, that the MicroVAX/VAXstation-2000 formats drives with a different interleave factor than the RQDX3 uses, resulting in lower data transfer rates than one would expect by formatting directly with the RQDX3 using the diag software on a VAX or a PDP-11. Does anyone here know what the two interleave factors actually are? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 28 22:46:10 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 22:46:10 -0500 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730705261525x1ef97fbbi72e1ab6794d611c3@mail.gmail.com> <20070527113946.41fd78f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <51ea77730705271009k7d32fc65ya07dbb6a5ab8d42d@mail.gmail.com> <1FC28117-E115-44B0-AB14-BF165D031304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705282046t2b9e42b7k1eb10faaaf35572c@mail.gmail.com> On 5/28/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > While these will work, you need a way to format them. A VAXstation > 2000, is a nice choice, if you can find one. Just got one, actually...and it's got a working RD54 in it, too. Bonus! From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 28 22:58:08 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 22:58:08 -0500 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> On 5/28/07, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/100-lbs-SCRAP-MEMORY-FOR-GOLD- > RECOVERY-RAM-1982-SUN_W0QQitemZ260121427754QQihZ01 > 6QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > A bit steep, but it's 100 lbs. worth! Wow...anyone want to guess how much gold would come out of that? 1lb? 10lbs? From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 28 23:06:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 21:06:22 -0700 Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <465B444E.7227.3E259A4B@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2007 at 19:40, Richard wrote: > Rubber parts need some ambient moisture to stay viable. Otherwise out > here in the desert (Salt Lake City, UT) rubber bands wouldn't turn to > crumbly bits after a few months. Rubber bands turn to crumbly bits out here in moldy Oregon in a few months. I think the agent at fault is more likely ozone from air pollution. Cheers, Chuck From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon May 28 23:08:51 2007 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 06:08:51 +0200 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2007-05-28 22:58:08 -0500, Jason T wrote: > On 5/28/07, Chris M wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/100-lbs-SCRAP-MEMORY-FOR-GOLD-RECOVERY-RAM-1982-SUN_W0QQitemZ260121427754QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > A bit steep, but it's 100 lbs. worth! > > Wow...anyone want to guess how much gold would come out of that? 1lb? > 10lbs? I don't think it's even near that. I *guess* that it's in the gram range at best... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf the second : f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 28 11:09:38 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 10:09:38 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <465AFEC2.40100@jetnet.ab.ca> Jason T wrote: > Wow...anyone want to guess how much gold would come out of that? 1lb? > 10lbs? $5 is my guess. While gold is expensive a little goes along way. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 28 23:24:56 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 00:24:56 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <200705290024.56398.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 29 May 2007 00:08, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Mon, 2007-05-28 22:58:08 -0500, Jason T wrote: > > On 5/28/07, Chris M wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/100-lbs-SCRAP-MEMORY-FOR-GOLD-RECOVERY-RAM-198 > > >2-SUN_W0QQitemZ260121427754QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewI > > >tem > > > > > > A bit steep, but it's 100 lbs. worth! > > > > Wow...anyone want to guess how much gold would come out of that? > > 1lb? 10lbs? > > I don't think it's even near that. I *guess* that it's in the gram > range at best... Based on the auction price, it looks like the seller expects it to be somewhere between 1-2oz. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 28 23:57:58 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 21:57:58 -0700 Subject: WTB: MicroVax II Scsi In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705282046t2b9e42b7k1eb10faaaf35572c@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705251132n3b1dfd68l3035158f7106f3bc@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90705251237v1afac91cr65ffa4051fcd12cd@mail.gmail.com> <004f01c79f4d$14b6f020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <51ea77730705252138k43adcba6l16b3667cb8054467@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730705261525x1ef97fbbi72e1ab6794d611c3@mail.gmail.com> <20070527113946.41fd78f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <51ea77730705271009k7d32fc65ya07dbb6a5ab8d42d@mail.gmail.com> <1FC28117-E115-44B0-AB14-BF165D031304@neurotica.com> <51ea77730705282046t2b9e42b7k1eb10faaaf35572c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:46 PM -0500 5/28/07, Jason T wrote: >On 5/28/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>While these will work, you need a way to format them. A VAXstation >>2000, is a nice choice, if you can find one. > >Just got one, actually...and it's got a working RD54 in it, too. Bonus! You lucky ******! That is a valuable find! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From silent700 at gmail.com Tue May 29 00:19:48 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 00:19:48 -0500 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <200705290024.56398.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> <200705290024.56398.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730705282219k43ee45d0h392d0457260be363@mail.gmail.com> On 5/28/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Based on the auction price, it looks like the seller expects it to be > somewhere between 1-2oz. Heh, yeah...I guess even a _pound_ of gold would be a healthy profit. Perhaps I overestimated a bit :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 29 00:41:32 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 01:41:32 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: > I don't think it's even near that. I *guess* that it's in the gram > range at best... Can someone please explain to me why the classic computer commuity simply can not grasp the concept that there is a lot of gold in older computer hardware? Really, guys, I do not know how many times you have been told, yet it just does not sink in... The guy is shooting high, but not very high. $5.00 a pound for really good boards is not insane. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 29 00:43:05 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 01:43:05 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465AFEC2.40100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> <465AFEC2.40100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > $5 is my guess. While gold is expensive a little goes along way. Don't get in the gold recycling business - you will lose your shirt. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 29 00:51:00 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 23:51:00 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <465BBF44.50309@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > Can someone please explain to me why the classic computer commuity > simply can not grasp the concept that there is a lot of gold in older > computer hardware? Really, guys, I do not know how many times you have > been told, yet it just does not sink in... But all that *old* scrap is now gone from about the mid 80's. If there is so much gold there why is he selling them? > The guy is shooting high, but not very high. $5.00 a pound for really > good boards is not insane. PS. I never could see the the ebay sale the link was down so I just can see the boards in question. > -- > Will > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 29 01:08:14 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 02:08:14 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465BBF44.50309@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> <465BBF44.50309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > But all that *old* scrap is now gone from about the mid 80's. When you learn something about the scrap industry, maybe then you will understand. Otherwise, you will just get yourself in trouble. > If there is so much gold there why is he selling them? For money? Does he care where the money for his gold scrap comes from? A refinery? A hobbyist? A celebrity? A politician? A clown? An organ grinder? Who cares? Money is money. -- Will From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 29 03:06:59 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 03:06:59 -0500 Subject: Amiga scan doublers/flicker fixers In-Reply-To: <518924.72533.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <518924.72533.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465BDF23.5030202@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > is anyone familiar with this devices? There seems to > have been a few on the market back in the day. Here > one on geekBay: For my Amiga DVD (shameless plug in my .sig), I just ended up investing in a broadcast-quality scan converter from RGB Spectrum (the Videolink 1650x). Unless you really had your heart on resolutions over 720x576, these work well and have the side-benefit of being able to 1. lay down stuff to video, and 2. Use any television as a monitor. Heck, you could probably plunk down $75 for a cheap scan converter and it will do pretty good S-video out to a decent TV. If you're using a Picasso or similar video board that does higher than 720x576, then it already scan-doubles and you don't need a doubler. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue May 29 05:19:08 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:19:08 +0100 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <200705290320.l4T3Jk9d084334@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705290320.l4T3Jk9d084334@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <24BEBCA6-10C9-4571-80C7-90C3D1E0BD4C@microspot.co.uk> > Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 03:03:17 +0100 > From: "Ensor" > Subject: Re: Apple /// Power Supply > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <006601c7a19c$a7e855e0$0a01a8c0 at memoryalpha.org.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; > reply-type=original > > Hi, > >> _If_ that PSU was easily available, I could agree with this. But >> it isn't. It's likely to take considerable time and effort to track >> one down, I think.... > > I don't know what the situation is in the US, but here in the UK > I've come > across exactly *ONE* Apple /// in some 22 years of collecting.... > > I'd put his chances of sourcing a working replacement PSU these > days at > ZERO. > > > TTFN - Pete. Actually I have a spare PSU, here in the UK, but sorry I'm keeping it for my own Apple ///s. These machines were so tightly engineered as regards FCC requirements that there always seemed to be a problem with getting the heat out and stopping the electronics shorting out against the case. Particularly the RAM daughter board at full capacity. The real time clock is a bit of a nightmare to get adjusted properly too. I don't mean to within spec, I mean to run so I don't have to adjust it every week, which is what I had to do with them when they were brand new. By contrast the 5MB or 10MB Profile hard drive sits in a box about five times bigger than is needed. It was a real luxury after doing the floppy shuffle for three quarters of an hour compiling Pascal programs, though upgrading to three floppy drives saved most of the arm work. Are logic diagrams available for the Apple /// now? If I remember right, even as dealers/service providers and hardware/software developers we were not allowed logic diagrams for the A///. That's where the rot started and we officially had to do module replacement, though we still replaced IC's when they had blown craters in the top of them, and were still able to buy AC power switches and such like from Apple. Must drag them out from my brother's loft some time and see if either of them still work. Hope they're OK, they are stored above the cold water tank in their original boxes. Fortunately the loft is heated so should be OK. Roger Holmes. From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue May 29 05:43:32 2007 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:43:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Q about a DEC board In-Reply-To: References: <16210.88.211.153.27.1180362776.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <12085.88.211.153.27.1180435412.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi Ethan, Yes, I did found this too, but my hope was that someone might know more about this than the single line in the field guide. Anyway, besides this board, I was able to get a W9512 wirewrap board, a W133-B (a dual W130-B) and 3 M7166 BI to Unibus paddle boards in the same deal. Thanks, Ed > On 5/28/07, Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> Anybody familiar or does know something about the M3112 from DEC? >> >> It says 'NICSA CONSOLE' and is a hex card and has a metal bracket >> with a rotary switch commonly seen on the later PDP's, 2 buttons, >> a couple of LED's and 4 7-segment displays. There is also a DB25 >> connector on the bracket, probably for a serial line? > > Megan Gentry's Field Guide ( > http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt ) describes it as: > > M3112 DRCSA U Console boot terminator (DEC/DLC/DRCSA) > > Sounds like some sort of comms gear, but I am unfamilar with it. > > -ethan > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 29 06:05:33 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 06:05:33 -0500 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <24BEBCA6-10C9-4571-80C7-90C3D1E0BD4C@microspot.co.uk> References: <200705290320.l4T3Jk9d084334@dewey.classiccmp.org> <24BEBCA6-10C9-4571-80C7-90C3D1E0BD4C@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <465C08FD.2040800@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Holmes wrote: > Actually I have a spare PSU, here in the UK, but sorry I'm keeping it > for my own Apple ///s. These machines were so tightly engineered as > regards FCC requirements that there always seemed to be a problem with > getting the heat out and stopping the electronics shorting out against > the case. Indeed - I used to run mine with the case off a lot of the time. With museum hat on, we've seen precisely one /// in the last five or so years (compared to six or seven Lisa 2 systems) - I tend to think that the regularity with which certain systems are offered is a pretty good indication of their scarcity, and that puts the /// in the "not many of them about" camp. (I'm still not quite sure why they're not collectible though - i.e. people don't seem to fall over themselves to acquire one. They're uncommon, quirky, strangely-styled, and often as not a reputation for being a bit of a flop makes something just as popular as something that's well-engineered) > By contrast the 5MB or 10MB Profile hard drive sits in a box about five > times bigger than is needed. It was a real luxury after doing the floppy > shuffle for three quarters of an hour compiling Pascal programs, though > upgrading to three floppy drives saved most of the arm work. I don't think I ever got mine to work with both my 5MB ProFiles at once; it'd happily work with one or the other drive with either controller, but I get the impression the software support just wasn't there to cope with two hard drives in the same system. > Are logic diagrams available for the Apple /// now? If I remember right, > even as dealers/service providers and hardware/software developers we > were not allowed logic diagrams for the A///. Wasn't there a similar issue with the hard drive low-level formatter, in that it was never released by Apple - so you couldn't take a Lisa ProFile and format it for a ///, and nor could you do drive replacement in the field - instead the whole faulty unit presumably got sent back to Apple for repair. > Must drag them out from my brother's loft some time and see if either of > them still work. Hope they're OK, they are stored above the cold water > tank in their original boxes. I don't think I've ever seen the original boxes - I have the one for the ProFile manuals / media, but not for the machine (or ProFiles, or monitor) itself. I really liked my ///... I'm just trying to thin the collection out a bit and it's going to have to go... :-( cheers Jules From tim.walls at snowgoons.com Tue May 29 06:46:01 2007 From: tim.walls at snowgoons.com (Tim Walls) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:46:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: digital camera capabilities Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote... > The right way to get better depth of field for oblique shots is to tilt > the lens (!). > [...] > The problem is that no digital camera has a tilting front. In the interests of completeness, I should say that this isn't strictly speaking true. Canon make EOS mount tilt/shift lenses, which will work on any of their digital SLRs (three of them, 24, 45 and 90mm IIRC.) In fact, their APS-C sensor DSLRs are in many ways ideal - the smaller-than-35mm sensor size means you're unlikely to see any vignetting even at extreme ends of the available movements. (For the uninitiated, a lens intended for tilt/shift, such as the TS-E lenses or anything made for a technical/view camera, needs to project an image circle significantly larger than the imaging plane (film/sensor), to allow for moving the projected image around as you move the lens. The extreme ends of the movements on the tilt/shift FD mount lens I use on my film camera are marked in red - this indicates you're going to start seeing vignetting if you tilt/shift this far because the image circle no longer covers the whole film area. Because most (not all) digital SLRs use smaller APS size sensors (~25mm longest edge IIRC rather than ~36) this is less of a problem.) That said, the Canon TS-E lenses are considered 'speciality' lenses and priced accordingly; unless you're going to make a living out of architectural photography not really a serious recommendation. My recommendation for a cheap digital starter kit for doing what you want would be the bottom of the range Canon digtal SLR (EOS 400D in Europe, 'Digital Rebel XTi' I think in USA - identical camera, but US market apparently demands a 'cool' name like 'Rebel'.) Buy it body-only, and buy the Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro lens as well. The EF-S is a beautiful lens at a very reasonable price; top-notch quality, the effective focal length given the smaller sensor in a DSLR is around 90mm, which is pretty reasonable for what you're looking to do, and most importantly it can do true 1:1 macro for when you want the photos of individual chips on that motherboard. It's also compatible with the Canon ringlight flash if you find yourself doing a lot of macro. The only caveat is that being an EF-S, it's not compatible with full-frame DSLRs or film SLRs (EF-S lenses take advantage of the smaller sensor & mirror size in DSLRs to extend the optics further back into the camera; if you could mount them on a film cam (which you can't, the mount prevents it,) the back of the lens would smash the mirror. Oh, that reminds me, in a conversation a while ago possible sources of weak acid solutions were being pondered. I meant to mention then, but it didn't seem worth an entire post - photographic stop bath is a weak acid solution, and readily available (in the UK, your high street Jessops still stocks most photographic chemistry, for the timebeing at least.) 'Normal' stop bath is acetic acid based I believe, you can also buy odourless (or more accurately 'less obnoxious odour') stop bath which is usually citric acid based. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Walls at home in Leeds EMail & MSN: tim.walls at snowgoons.com From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 29 07:45:20 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 07:45:20 -0500 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070529074116.06ce1670@mail> At 07:09 PM 5/28/2007, you wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/100-lbs-SCRAP-MEMORY-FOR-GOLD- >RECOVERY-RAM-1982-SUN_W0QQitemZ260121427754QQihZ01 >6QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >A bit steep, but it's 100 lbs. worth! $499? $5 a pound? Gold at $660 an ounce? How much gold might normally be expected in 100 pounds of 1985 scrap? - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 29 07:53:20 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 08:53:20 -0400 Subject: Nice PC-museum.. In-Reply-To: <464C65A7.23868.410031C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070517105248.0367e808@mail.30below.com> <464C7F40.8030804@pacbell.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20070517155456.04707f78@mail.30below.com> <464C65A7.23868.410031C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5/17/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What there wasn't in the pre-PC world was a lot of uniformity between > manufacturers. Quite a number ran the same software base, but it > didn't do a whole lot of good when your friend was using Multitech > system and you were using an Osborne, even though you both were > running WordStar. Writing decent games across the various platforms > (which really pushed the IBM PC along in the world) was next to > impossible. It's one of the things that aided Infocom's success - their cost of writing a new game was limited to the development expense of writing the game itself. Since they had begun their company by writing a virtual machine (the "Z-Machine"), all they had to do to port their oeuvre was to write the new virtual machine for the new platform. When I worked at Software Productions, writing kids software that was published in Reader's Digest, we had the opposite problem - we were 100% involved in the platform. Adding a new machine was a major hassle. Since our target was the home, and the era was 1981-1984, we started with 6502-based machines (I was hired to add some C-64 experience to a room full of Apple guys), and only reluctantly supported the PC (around the time of MS-DOS 2.1). Our most popular platforms (by sales) were the Apple II and the C-64. As an aside, this is the company I worked at where we literally used a PC jr as a doorstop when we closed-up shop. > I'd guess that there were only two real "killer" apps in the x80 days- > -word processing and spreadsheets. I'm not sure that database apps > really came into their own until hard disks became readily and > cheaply available. Having written and worked on floppy-based databases, I'd agree - there was limited consumer interest when your entire database had to fit on a single floppy. I remember helping my mother with a problem at her typing shop where they had to do some sort of mail list merge on a Kaypro... it was a slow, messy affair, and it was only a few hundred records. In context of the thread, this was in 1985, long after PCs were ensconced in the workplace. Many were still using CP/M machines bought in the previous 5 years. -ethan From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 29 03:47:52 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 09:47:52 +0100 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1180428472.17219.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Sun, 2007-05-27 at 00:28 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've also yet to see a digital camera that comes close to the qualtiy of > results from my film cameras. I am not talking about apparent sharpness, > that can be tweaked. I am talking about detail in the image. You're very fond of saying this, but I've yet to see you make an honest comparison. Invariably a couple of posts after claiming that no digital camera can match the quality of your film camera, you reveal that you're talking about 8x10" large-format. When we're discussing sub-200 quid cameras to get a quick photo of an unidentifed board, which is likely to be more useful (or indeed useful in any way)? I guarantee you that you won't tell the difference between a frame from a good digital SLR, and a scanned frame from slide film in an equivalent SLR. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 29 05:55:22 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:55:22 +0100 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465B24B0.8060808@pacbell.net> References: <465B24B0.8060808@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1180436122.6792.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-05-28 at 13:51 -0500, Jim Battle wrote: > Tony, you have lots of time on your hands. Many people here have a job, > a wife, and kids that take priority over any hobby activity. You have I've got the first two, but not the latter. Does an excess of small fat ponies count? > space to set up a nice workshop, and not everybody is so well supplied I definitely don't have space > as you. If Eric can send an email, proffer some money, receive a power > supply in mail, plug in the new power supply and go, I can easily > imagine it takes less of his time than to fix it. Great. But don't bin the old one - send it to ChrisM or Tony who will then fix it! > ChrisM said it would take three minutes to fix the power supply. That > is horse byproduct. It takes my soldering iron more than three minutes > to get hot. :-) Many of us don't have a well supplied junk box, so it You let your soldering iron cool down? Eh what? And why don't you have a well-stocked junk box, anyway? > still takes a trip to an electronics shop or a web order to get the > replacement. Disassembling the power supply, cleaning up the mess from > the faulty cap(s), unsoldering, soldering in the new one, reassembling > the case ... it all adds up. > > I can't speak for Eric, but I can easily imagine making a similar choice. Each to their own, I suppose... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 29 06:01:02 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:01:02 +0100 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1180436462.6792.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Sun, 2007-05-27 at 00:37 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > The standard DEC key is stamped XX2247 (I have on on my regular > > keyring). You can either try to get one from a DEC enthusiast, or for > > So do I :-) > > > a bit of money ($15?) you can get a full-service locksmith to code-cut > > you one based on that number. > > Or real madmen with a lathe/mill and a dividing head can machine it > themselves from metal tubing ;-) You scare me. You're literally at the far end of the next country along, and you still scare me. > > > > I have only ever encountered one machine in 25 years that didn't have > > the default key. > > Well, later DEC machines (11/44, etc) take the smae-sized key, but there > are no pins in the lock. Any thing that will fit into the lock and engage > with the grouve in the central it will work. The official DEC key is just > a plastic moulding with a ridge inside. Obviosuly an XX2247 will work too. I know the key for the front panel on my MicroVAX 3300 resembles a bike lock key but without any of the "plungers". In fact, although I have the plastic key that came with it, my bike lock key and my sister's Krooklok key fit it! > The 11/05 , 11/10 and GT40 had a Yale-type cylinder lock with a flat key. > 3 wafer tumbers IIRC, very easy to pick if you're so inclinded (or of > course you can dismantle it from the panel casting quite easily. I picked the panel lock on my OEM PDP-11/73. It seemed to have three wavers. Gordon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 29 08:37:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 09:37:47 -0400 Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <1180436462.6792.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <1180436462.6792.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: On 5/29/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I know the key for the front panel on my MicroVAX 3300 resembles a bike > lock key but without any of the "plungers". In fact, although I have > the plastic key that came with it, my bike lock key and my sister's > Krooklok key fit it! Any "standard" tubular key should work. All that's required is the locator tooth to grab the switch body, and an appropriate diameter to fit down into the groove. Personally, I like to use the plastic keys that come with the equipment in the first place, because I don't want to induce wear on the switch by repeated insertions of a metal key into a plastic switch body. In the absence of a plastic key, for the newer machines (11/24, 11/44...), one could just go to a locksmith and buy a blank tubular key. With no notches, it shouldn't be more than a couple of dollars. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 29 08:58:42 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 09:58:42 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, In-Reply-To: <1180428472.17219.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <1180428472.17219.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: On 5/29/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I guarantee you that you won't tell the difference between a frame from > a good digital SLR, and a scanned frame from slide film in an equivalent > SLR. What's your cutoff for a "good digital SLR"? I have an Olympus E-10. It was top-of-the-line over 5 years ago - fixed lens with true 9mm-36mm focal length ("1/4 sized CCD", so 36mm-144mm equivalent), 62mm diameter (large compared to most digital cameras, so at f/2 - f/2.4, its lens is a bit faster than you commonly see), but being as old as it is, "only" 4 megapixel. When it was new, this camera retailed around $1800-$2000. I picked it up in 2003 for $650, when it was no longer at the top of the pack. A friend of mine just got one from eBay last week for $150. My best resolution with this camera is on the order of 2.5K x 1.5K pixels. That's still quite a bit less than film. For webbish stuff, though, plenty of resolution. I still have a few 35mm cameras, but with the cost of film and processing, I don't do as much with it as I used to (less than a dozen rolls of slide film per year). I do, however, use it when I want to take stunning pictures of Antarctic scenery. Between noisy pixels and contrast differences between ASA 50 slide film and a CCD, the visual impact of real film is amazing. For indoor shots of computer bits under controllable lighting conditions with a target image size of 800x600 or less, there's not much difference in perceived quality. If by "good digital SLR", you mean something in the 8-10MP range, with removable lenses that one can tailor to the application at hand (by spending enough $$$), then I would say that they are approaching SLR resolution (numbers I've heard from a Hollywood cameraman are that 35mm movie film is considered to have "4000 lines of resolution" for the purposes of generating special effects and certain kinds of image subtleties), but not quite there. $5000 worth of digital camera (body and lenses) can compete with a $100 used SLR. $1000 worth of digital camera can't in many circumstances. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 29 09:48:45 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 07:48:45 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705282219k43ee45d0h392d0457260be363@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: "Jason T" > >On 5/28/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>Based on the auction price, it looks like the seller expects it to be >>somewhere between 1-2oz. > >Heh, yeah...I guess even a _pound_ of gold would be a healthy profit. >Perhaps I overestimated a bit :) Hi I just can't think how there would be 1-2 oz of gold in 100 lbs of scrap. Gold used in electronics is plated on. 15 to 30 mil is what I recall on most anything. By My calculations, that would be an optimistic surface area of 55 by 55 inchs of gold surface for 1 oz. For some old HP circuit boards, maybe. For just regular boards? There is a lot of gold in PC boards but in a 100 lbs of boards I don't think you'd find much more than about 1 foot by 1 foot of gold surface. That is a lot of gold but not an ounce. Calc: 19.3 g/cc for gold 1lbs = 454 g 1 oz = 28.375 g 1 oz au = 1.47 cc 1 cu in = 16.39 cc 1oz au = .0897 cu in at 30 mil 1 oz au = 3000 sq in = 55 x 55 surface. Most IC's are on a surface of about .0625 sq in. That would be about 50K IC's. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 29 09:55:26 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 09:55:26 -0500 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705282219k43ee45d0h392d0457260be363@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070529095403.06a4f5d0@mail> At 09:48 AM 5/29/2007, dwight elvey wrote: >There is a lot of gold in PC boards but in a 100 lbs of boards I don't >think you'd find much more than about 1 foot by 1 foot of gold surface. >That is a lot of gold but not an ounce. I'm under-informed, but I'd guess that the largest amount is within IC chips themselves, with the bond-out wires and other surfaces inside that were plated. Nextmost would be card edges and headers. - John From jim at photojim.ca Tue May 29 10:26:54 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 09:26:54 -0600 Subject: digital camera capabilities References: Message-ID: <011401c7a205$c9f4d370$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Walls" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 5:46 AM Subject: Re: digital camera capabilities >> In the interests of completeness, I should say that this isn't strictly > speaking true. Canon make EOS mount tilt/shift lenses, which will work on > any of their digital SLRs (three of them, 24, 45 and 90mm IIRC.) In fact, > their APS-C sensor DSLRs are in many ways ideal - the smaller-than-35mm > sensor size means you're unlikely to see any vignetting even at extreme > ends of the available movements. Nikon makes some too. Still, though, if you're using perspective control and lens tilts and shifts to attain certain results, you shouldn't be using a plastic digital SLR. You should be using a proper view camera. A good 4x5 camera with a good lens costs about as much as a professional DSLR. A good used 4x5 costs significantly less. I got my whole 4x5 system for about $500 including darkroom gear. Now if you want to shoot digital 4x5 you have to be rich, but you can get an amazing capture with a decent flatbed scanner off 4x5. There is a scanner that will give you a roughly 60-gigabyte uncompressed image (it was certainly tens of gigabytes). Sometimes you want things *out* of focus (selective focus)... and this is hard to do on APS-sized DSLRs. It's much easier to do on 35mm (or full-frame DSLRs) and obscenely easy on larger formats. Use the right tool for the job. DSLRs are fantastic for weddings. 4x5 monorails are irreplaceable for architecture. Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 29 10:33:27 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:33:27 -0500 Subject: digital camera capabilities References: <011401c7a205$c9f4d370$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <01f901c7a206$b807c950$6500a8c0@BILLING> Ok, we're going to dovetail this discussion in to classic computers, right? ;) J From jim at photojim.ca Tue May 29 10:54:34 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 09:54:34 -0600 Subject: digital camera capabilities References: <011401c7a205$c9f4d370$1802a8c0@JIMM> <01f901c7a206$b807c950$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <01b401c7a209$a79df1e0$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:33 AM Subject: Re: digital camera capabilities > Ok, we're going to dovetail this discussion in to classic computers, > right? ;) Umm... I keep a database of my film photographs on my Commodore 64... (Okay, I don't, but I could... :) ) It's interesting - the appeal of film photography to me has a great affinity with the appeal of old computers. There is a certain tactile pleasure that I get using film gear, and it relates very favourably with the pleasure I get using older computers. Jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 29 11:48:01 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:48:01 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> <465BBF44.50309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <465C5941.7090603@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >> But all that *old* scrap is now gone from about the mid 80's. > > When you learn something about the scrap industry, maybe then you will > understand. Otherwise, you will just get yourself in trouble. I don't think scrap is the problem, just all the people who speculate on the price of metal is. Off hand base metals like copper and lead seem to be better $$$ than other stuff. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 29 11:52:23 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:52:23 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070529074116.06ce1670@mail> References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070529074116.06ce1670@mail> Message-ID: <465C5A47.4050502@jetnet.ab.ca> John Foust wrote: > $499? $5 a pound? Gold at $660 an ounce? How much gold might > normally be expected in 100 pounds of 1985 scrap? And just how will you extract your gold ... ? From png at ideaphile.com Tue May 29 11:14:33 2007 From: png at ideaphile.com (Peter Glaskowsky) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 09:14:33 -0700 Subject: Storing hard drives In-Reply-To: <200705290320.l4T3Jk9Z084334@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705290320.l4T3Jk9Z084334@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: David Griffith wrote: > Gun shops sell plastic bags designed to deal with this kind of problem > with firearm storage. Dessicant packets are also available. Be aware that some gun-storage bags are designed to deposit a corrosion-resistant film on the contents by means of a chemical- impregnated liner, card, bag, or other insert. This would probably mean death to a hard disk. These bags are usually marked as such, but be careful. There are many kinds of dessicant. Silica gel is the best for this purpose, as far as I know. It's also possible to get packets of an oxygen-absorbing material, usually used for food storage. . png From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue May 29 13:08:31 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:08:31 -0700 Subject: digital camera capabilities In-Reply-To: <01b401c7a209$a79df1e0$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <011401c7a205$c9f4d370$1802a8c0@JIMM> <01f901c7a206$b807c950$6500a8c0@BILLING> <01b401c7a209$a79df1e0$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: I think we were talking about photographing classic computers. I have used a video camera successfully. when I got my Sony HI8 TR81 in 1991 I started taking it to auction previews. I could walk right up to the name plate and get the model and serial number. I used it for inventorying boards and reviewing it later that evening. It would focus on something almost laying on the lens. And its low light capabilities was better than my eyes in a dim warehouse. After about 8 months Hanford kicked my camera out. Turns out they don't allow cameras on federal reserves. However it proved useful anywhere they would let it in. Later I used a similar Sony video camera to do closeups of chips I was selling on eBay. Hooked it up to a frame grabber on the computer. Lit with a fluorescent magnifying ring light and a paper diffuser. Great chip pics. I have a Ultra 2 that I want to get the sun video working so I use that, but that is a future project. I have been using now an Optio 430 RS which works OK. I can't get as close as I can with the video camera. Extreme macro capability would be a requirement for my next camera. This 4 megapixel camera is sufficient for my internet sales. it was a cheap 3X camera two years ago. I particularly was looking for a camera that could be used manually. And I have used all of the manual functions. Actually I use it most for travel and am soon going to have to replace it. My biggest disappointment was the cheap cameras have only two f stops. So I really had to learn how to manage my depth of focus. Most cameras adjust the shutter time for fine tuning exposures. I also use a monopod a lot and that really helps with camera shake. it is hard to handhold at an eighth of a second. I also brace or use a tripod a lot. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 29 14:05:50 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, In-Reply-To: References: <1180428472.17219.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <20070529120124.Y90180@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 May 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > resolution (numbers I've heard from a Hollywood cameraman are that > 35mm movie film is considered to have "4000 lines of resolution" for > the purposes of generating special effects and certain kinds of image > subtleties), but not quite there. 35mm movie film is shot in frames perpendicular to the film path, resulting in about 18 x 24mm (4 sprocket holes)/"single frame" 35mm still film is usually shot in frames parallel to the path, resulting in about 24 x 36mm (8 sprocket holes)/"double frame" digital systems in my price range do not produce quality comparable to my film cameras. BUT, . . . they produce quality that IS adequate for most of what I might want to do. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue May 29 14:15:27 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 14:15:27 -0500 Subject: Repairing original AT hard disk Message-ID: <006f01c7a225$b782c9c0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> So, I 've got this IBM AT, which is strangely enough, fairly rare in its currently equipped form (EGA, 30M HDD). I'd like to keep it original if possible. There is a weird problem with the hard disk. When I turn the machine on, the hard disk makes this 'CLOK' sound, like the head is trying to retract or something but can't. When the machine tries to boot the hard disk, it just sits there with the light on and then says it had a seek error or could not detect the disk. Any ideas what's wrong? Is it supposed to make that noise when you turn it on? It's awfully loud. Otherwise the platters spin freely and quietly, no bearing noise there. There isn't a head lock on this drive is there? Thanks Julian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 29 14:15:31 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: digital camera capabilities In-Reply-To: <011401c7a205$c9f4d370$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <011401c7a205$c9f4d370$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <20070529120747.O90180@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 May 2007, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > A good 4x5 camera with a good lens costs about as much as a professional > DSLR. A good used 4x5 costs significantly less. I got my whole 4x5 system > for about $500 including darkroom gear. ... and used deals exist. My Linhof was "25$ for most of a Linhof", and I had to hand machine parts to mount a Graphlex back on it. My "Century 8 x 10" was $5! But restoring it to barely working order was a LOT of work. But my monorail 4x5 and Toyo field view were each over $100 (like paying $300 for an old computer) None of my Leicas were in working order when I got them. Can anybody, PLEASE, tell me where to find comparable deals on a 4x5 digital back? BTW, Panasonic (and Leica) have some digitals with a "Vario-Summicron" lens. Does that have anything in common, other than trademark with the REAL Leitz Summicrons? From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue May 29 14:39:31 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:39:31 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities In-Reply-To: <01f901c7a206$b807c950$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <011401c7a205$c9f4d370$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070529152755.04d0d150@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: >Ok, we're going to dovetail this discussion in to classic computers, right? ;) > >J Well, I did use a digital SLR (Nikon D70) to take these pix of VCF-MW 2006... ;-) http://zmerch.30below.com/vcf_mw_06/ Other than adjust white balance; edit exposure levels slightly; and convert from RAW to JPG, these are pretty much untouched out of the camera. I did shoot RAW, so there's a lot more color/pixel information available (originals are 3028x2002 resolution w/36-bit per pixel color depth)... about 5Meg per picture losslessly compressed - the full-size .jpgs are about 1.8Meg each. I have the originals archived & backed up, but due to size & stress on the server, they're password protected. If anyone needs access to them, I can grant it. No, I'm not a great photographer, and yes, due to the wide variance in lighting situations, I pretty much left the camera on full-auto (read: brainless mode ;-) for the show. Altho all pix are copyright yours truly, use of any image is free (as in beer) w/proper credit given. Thanks! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 29 14:41:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:41:00 -0400 Subject: Repairing original AT hard disk In-Reply-To: <006f01c7a225$b782c9c0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <006f01c7a225$b782c9c0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On 5/29/07, Julian Wolfe wrote: > So, I 've got this IBM AT, which is strangely enough, fairly rare in its > currently equipped form (EGA, 30M HDD). I'd like to keep it original if > possible. There is a weird problem with the hard disk. When I turn the > machine on, the hard disk makes this 'CLOK' sound, like the head is trying > to retract or something but can't. One CLOK or multiple CLOKs? > When the machine tries to boot the hard > disk, it just sits there with the light on and then says it had a seek error > or could not detect the disk. OK... that's consistent with the drive not coming up right. > Any ideas what's wrong? Is it supposed to make that noise when you turn it > on? It's awfully loud. I have heard loud noises on startup from Priam V60 drives, but that's the headlock releasing. Seagates didn't make loud noises. > Otherwise the platters spin freely and quietly, no bearing noise there. Good. > There isn't a head lock on this drive is there? What drive? An ST-251? I don't know what they shipped and called 30MB, if it was an ST-238 (RLL version of ST-225), or some other drive, or even an ST-251 restricted to 30MB for marketing reasons. The only way to know what noises are normal is to know what brand and model of drive you have. There are natural variations that can be easily explained away when one knows what one has. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 29 14:49:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:49:10 -0700 Subject: digital camera capabilities In-Reply-To: References: , <01b401c7a209$a79df1e0$1802a8c0@JIMM>, Message-ID: <465C2146.26974.4184C533@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2007 at 11:08, Paxton Hoag wrote: > My biggest disappointment was the cheap cameras have only two f stops. > So I really had to learn how to manage my depth of focus. Most cameras > adjust the shutter time for fine tuning exposures. One thing that digicams seem to have in common with PCs is that they go obsolete very quickly. Even if the resolution of the sensor manages to stay relatively current, the noise level and contrast range seems to improve dramatically with every iteration. I've been using a Minolta 5Mp D32 for a few years. In its day, it was pretty good. Earlier this year, my wife asked for a camera that was easy to use and I got her a little Pentax Optio 7Mp job for about $100. It takes better markedly photos than does my Minolta. At some point, it's useful playing the "one generation behind bleeding edge" game to economize. I certainly do it (3GHz PCs can be found on Freecycle for nothing) with PCs and will probably start doing it with digicams when my Minolta gets unusable. Cheers, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue May 29 15:04:55 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:04:55 -0500 Subject: Repairing original AT hard disk In-Reply-To: References: <006f01c7a225$b782c9c0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <007d01c7a22c$a0ac0fc0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:41 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Repairing original AT hard disk > > On 5/29/07, Julian Wolfe wrote: > > So, I 've got this IBM AT, which is strangely enough, > fairly rare in > > its currently equipped form (EGA, 30M HDD). I'd like to keep it > > original if possible. There is a weird problem with the > hard disk. > > When I turn the machine on, the hard disk makes this 'CLOK' sound, > > like the head is trying to retract or something but can't. > > One CLOK or multiple CLOKs? Just one. > > > When the machine tries to boot the hard disk, it just sits > there with > > the light on and then says it had a seek error or could not > detect the > > disk. > > OK... that's consistent with the drive not coming up right. > > > Any ideas what's wrong? Is it supposed to make that noise when you > > turn it on? It's awfully loud. > > I have heard loud noises on startup from Priam V60 drives, > but that's the headlock releasing. Seagates didn't make loud noises. Not a seagate. This is an actual IBM disk. > > > Otherwise the platters spin freely and quietly, no bearing > noise there. > > Good. > > > There isn't a head lock on this drive is there? > > What drive? An ST-251? I don't know what they shipped and > called 30MB, if it was an ST-238 (RLL version of ST-225), or > some other drive, or even an ST-251 restricted to 30MB for > marketing reasons. > The only way to know what noises are normal is to know what > brand and model of drive you have. There are natural > variations that can be easily explained away when one knows > what one has. This is an IBM brand drive, and after doing some reading, I found out IBM-brand drives of this era DO NOT park the heads in a landing zone, they actually retract them. (Perhaps like the Priam disk you refer to) Would someone on this list with a clean box be willing to unstick the heads for me if it comes to that? From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Tue May 29 15:04:20 2007 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:04:20 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Model III available for cost of shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How much do you think it weigh? Would you tell my wife to stop hitting me, please? On 28 May 2007, at 02:39, Richard wrote: > It has no peripherals, is dusty from being stored in a garage > (although it appears to have been kept dry), and is missing the > following > keycaps: V, M and bottom-right key on the numeric keypad. The case > says "48K RAM". Other than the missing keys it appears to be in good > condition. I have not powered it up, but it was reported working the > last time it was used. Shipping would be from US ZIP 84106 (Salt Lake > City, UT) > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - Dwight D. Eisenhower From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 29 15:29:46 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:29:46 -0500 Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) In-Reply-To: References: <011401c7a205$c9f4d370$1802a8c0@JIMM> <01f901c7a206$b807c950$6500a8c0@BILLING> <01b401c7a209$a79df1e0$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> (apparently in response to Jay's request to bring this thread about cameras back on topic) Paxton Hoag wrote: > I think we were talking about photographing classic computers. [ more blah blah blah about camera equipment excised ] You are so right; carry on. That reminds me, often when I am hobbying with my vintage computers I can hear my wife watching TV in the next room. Can you believe what happened on last week's episode of Lost? This morning, just after walking past my Northstar Horizon, I read today's newspaper. There was a really interesting article about Roe vs Wade and how the aging supreme court is likely to have a lot of turnover in the next few years. What is everybody's opinion on this vital subject? Back in 1992 or so, I recall some character at work bringing in a floppy for the Apple II. When nobody was looking, he booted it up. Lo and behold, it was a very solarized, low framerate video of a certain sex act. It was really technically impressive ... the programming, that is :-) . Let's all talk about our pornography preferences. We must have at least a few experts on the list that can share their insights. Yes, this thread started on topic -- what camera is suitable/useful for photographing the equipment of this hobby we share. That relatedness lasted about three messages. Since then 95% of what has come out has been war stories and shop talk having NOTHING to do with vintage computers, other than the authors happen to be interested in both and can't resist the temptation to demonstrate it. And before anybody else mentions it, yes, I do believe my infrequent curmudgeonly posts to get back on track are starting to outnumber my classic computer posts. So, to help balance things out, if you've read this far, and are interesting in paying shipping on a working dual head multiprocessing Z80 turbodos system (from austin, tx, usa), let me know. Specifically it is an IMS 5000 IS system. Preference goes to anybody willing to come and pick it up. You are excluded from consideration if you have authored any emails with the subject line "digital camera capabilities" *. * (not really) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 29 15:36:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:36:47 -0400 Subject: Repairing original AT hard disk In-Reply-To: <007d01c7a22c$a0ac0fc0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <006f01c7a225$b782c9c0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <007d01c7a22c$a0ac0fc0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On 5/29/07, Julian Wolfe wrote: > > One CLOK or multiple CLOKs? > > Just one. I have heard a single loud "tock" from working drives as they release the head-lock solenoid, but perhaps your head assembly is glued to a rubber stopper like in some failure modes of, IIRC, Micropolis 1335s, AKA DEC RD53s. The solenoid would still trip, but the heads wouldn't load. > This is an IBM brand drive... Ah. That model is outside my experience with PC-ATs. > and after doing some reading, I found out > IBM-brand drives of this era DO NOT park the heads in a landing zone, they > actually retract them. (Perhaps like the Priam disk you refer to) I found some tantalizing info at the HTMLization of www.course.ws/techtalk/downloads/PDF/hardware.pdf in google's cache, but the HTML file stops in the middle of the entry for the AT, the original site is gone, and archive.org didn't have the PDF file cached. If someone happens to have that file cached on their own, there's lots of meaty technical details on BIOS revisions and more. -ethan From Mark.Aceto at fcps.edu Tue May 29 12:19:34 2007 From: Mark.Aceto at fcps.edu (Aceto, (Anthony) Mark) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 13:19:34 -0400 Subject: Meshna Message-ID: Response to "John Meshna Post I was unable to respond to an Internet post I viewed, but I wanted you to know that after all these years (since about 1968) the address of John Meshna Jr. will forever live in my memory. As a teenager experimenting with electronic equipment, your father, whom I never meet, was a huge and positive influence to my life and endeavors. Kindest regards, Mark Aceto Vienna, VA From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 29 16:07:09 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:07:09 -0400 Subject: Q about a DEC board In-Reply-To: References: <16210.88.211.153.27.1180362776.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <465C95FD.2030300@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Megan Gentry's Field Guide ( > http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt ) describes it as: What ever happened to Megan? I haven't seen her around for a very long time. Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 29 16:22:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 14:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <683601.54477.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <369015.81428.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > > I don't think it's even near that. I *guess* that > it's in the gram > > range at best... > > Can someone please explain to me why the classic > computer commuity > simply can not grasp the concept that there is a lot > of gold in older > computer hardware? Really, guys, I do not know how > many times you have > been told, yet it just does not sink in... I'll venture a guess and say the vast majority of people on this list are interested in the collectible/nostalgic aspects of old hardware, not for recycling. How much old *scrap* is there left these days? > The guy is shooting high, but not very high. $5.00 a > pound for really > good boards is not insane. Just how much gold (after considering the costs of extraction) in monetary terms would a $5 pound of scrap yield? I don't see any figures to that effect. ____________________________________________________________________________________Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 29 16:28:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 14:28:14 -0700 Subject: Repairing original AT hard disk In-Reply-To: References: <006f01c7a225$b782c9c0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, <007d01c7a22c$a0ac0fc0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, Message-ID: <465C387E.32762.41DF7727@cclist.sydex.com> This isn't the original "original" AT hard drive, which was a 20MB. I'm guessing that it was the later 30MB one with the voice-coil positioner. If that's so, you can tell by U24 and U16 being 74LS374s on the PCB. I've got the schematics from the O&A, which run to about 18 pages if that will be any help. Nothing much in the O&A text itself, which has a few typos. Cheers, Chuck From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue May 29 16:48:20 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 22:48:20 +0100 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465C08FD.2040800@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200705290320.l4T3Jk9d084334@dewey.classiccmp.org> <24BEBCA6-10C9-4571-80C7-90C3D1E0BD4C@microspot.co.uk> <465C08FD.2040800@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <465C9FA4.4080508@gifford.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > With museum hat on, we've seen precisely one /// in the last five or so > years (compared to six or seven Lisa 2 systems) - I tend to think that > the regularity with which certain systems are offered is a pretty good > indication of their scarcity, and that puts the /// in the "not many of > them about" camp. I have one, and it worked last time I tried it! Also have an external floppy drive for it and a couple of expansion cards. > (I'm still not quite sure why they're not collectible though - i.e. > people don't seem to fall over themselves to acquire one. They're > uncommon, quirky, strangely-styled, and often as not a reputation for > being a bit of a flop makes something just as popular as something > that's well-engineered) The feature that I like is the special two-click cursor keys; you press a bit harder, and the cursor move a bit faster. There's a second switch under the key, with a stronger spring, that makes the auto-repeat run faster (just on the cursor keys). -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 29 16:50:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 14:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465ADD3B.2020106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <637657.56838.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Get off this list now !!!! > Give me clean air ... > The other factor for repair vs replacement is your > test > equipment and things like a schematic. Repairing a > switching > power supply is one the last things I would want to > do. I guess this is some sort of joke. But again the triviality of such a repair can't be underestimated. In fact, you should be GLAD when a capacitor poofs in yer p/s. It's VERY easy to diagnose what went wrong (ye can smell it, and oh don't it smell nice. I ain't kidding. I LIKE the smell of toasty caps. And machine oil too). And there's only 2 leads. A very easy job. You DO NOT need any test equipment. A schematic is necessary, yes, but I know the value of that cap could be found out by someone on this list, or some other place on the net. Apple 3 parts may not be so common, but docs for it shouldn't be hard to find at all. I'll bet someone (though not me) could guess the value of that capacitor, and would be pretty close too. I'll wager that this is probably THE least arduous of all faults/repairs having to do with an older computer. So easy it's a joke. ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 29 16:53:03 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:53:03 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in Canada, In-Reply-To: References: <1180428472.17219.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <465CA0BF.3040200@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > $5000 worth of digital camera (body and lenses) can compete with a > $100 used SLR. $1000 worth of digital camera can't in many > circumstances. But I'm starting to see cameras that were $5000 appearing on the used market. I am looking at picking up a Kodak DCS Pro/14n which was in that price range, and has a full-frame 35mm 13.7Mpel CCD, a pro-quality Nikon body and takes the full range of Nikkor lenses, and I'm planning on spending $500-750 for a lightly used body. You can get deals on digital SLR if you're in the market. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 29 17:17:40 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:17:40 -0600 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <637657.56838.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <637657.56838.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465CA684.1070809@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > --- woodelf wrote: > > >> Get off this list now !!!! >> Give me clean air ... >> The other factor for repair vs replacement is your >> test >> equipment and things like a schematic. Repairing a >> switching >> power supply is one the last things I would want to >> do. > > I guess this is some sort of joke. > But again the triviality of such a repair can't be > underestimated. In fact, you should be GLAD when a > capacitor poofs in yer p/s. It's VERY easy to diagnose > what went wrong (ye can smell it, and oh don't it > smell nice. I ain't kidding. I LIKE the smell of > toasty caps. And machine oil too). And there's only 2 > leads. A very easy job. You DO NOT need any test > equipment. A schematic is necessary, yes, but I know > the value of that cap could be found out by someone on > this list, or some other place on the net. Apple 3 > parts may not be so common, but docs for it shouldn't > be hard to find at all. > I'll bet someone (though not me) could guess the > value of that capacitor, and would be pretty close > too. > I'll wager that this is probably THE least arduous of > all faults/repairs having to do with an older > computer. So easy it's a joke. > But I want to know *why* the cap smoked first. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 29 17:20:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:20:06 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <637657.56838.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <465ADD3B.2020106@jetnet.ab.ca>, <637657.56838.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465C44A6.20456.420EF420@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2007 at 14:50, Chris M wrote: > I LIKE the smell of toasty caps. And machine oil too). Hmmm, then burning selenium rectifier must set your mouth a- watering... :) Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 29 17:33:35 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465CA684.1070809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <446818.5713.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > But I want to know *why* the cap smoked first. Sometimes they just seem to go. This was a common occurrence w/the Tandy 2000's p/s. It could be a faulty design. Regardless of why it happened, if you fix the problem, your p/s will work again. For a time anyway. It might not be worth worrying about. ____________________________________________________________________________________Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 29 17:37:02 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:37:02 -0600 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465C44A6.20456.420EF420@cclist.sydex.com> References: <465ADD3B.2020106@jetnet.ab.ca>, <637657.56838.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <465C44A6.20456.420EF420@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <465CAB0E.3060302@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hmmm, then burning selenium rectifier must set your mouth a- > watering... :) I got one of them. Any one with a spare? 117 V, 150 ma ... That seems to be my problem a Zenith Trans-Oceanic that I got on ebay . #$@! solid state ... > Cheers, > Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 29 17:48:33 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 29 May 2007 15:48:33 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <446818.5713.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <446818.5713.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1180478913.465cadc14ef82@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Chris M : > > --- woodelf wrote: > > > > But I want to know *why* the cap smoked first. > > Sometimes they just seem to go. This was a common > occurrence w/the Tandy 2000's p/s. It could be a > faulty design. Regardless of why it happened, if you > fix the problem, your p/s will work again. For a time > anyway. It might not be worth worrying about. doing some quick googling, many of the sites that had info on Apple III power supply repairs talked about a failing electrolytic cap, although the package on the one i found with pics didn't look like any electrolytic I had looked at. http://www.applefritter.com/node/20378 scroll down towards the bottom of the page. I'd actually expect the electrolytics to be getting dodgey after 20+ years. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 29 19:03:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:03:07 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465CAB0E.3060302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <465ADD3B.2020106@jetnet.ab.ca>, <465C44A6.20456.420EF420@cclist.sydex.com>, <465CAB0E.3060302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <465C5CCB.22403.426D43CA@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2007 at 16:37, woodelf wrote: > I got one of them. Any one with a spare? > 117 V, 150 ma ... That seems to be my problem a > Zenith Trans-Oceanic that I got on ebay . #$@! > solid state ... If you replace the selenium stink-o-matic with a silicon rectifier (you may want to add a series resistor), you'd be doing what many repair techs did in the 1960's. IR touted clip-mounted rectifiers as direct substitutes for seleniums. Not to mention substitutes for OZ4, 5Y3, 6Z4, etc. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 29 19:23:02 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:23:02 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply References: <446818.5713.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <1180478913.465cadc14ef82@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <465CC3E6.905F7350@cs.ubc.ca> Geoff Reed wrote: > doing some quick googling, many of the sites that had info on Apple III power > supply repairs talked about a failing electrolytic cap, although the package on > the one i found with pics didn't look like any electrolytic I had looked at. > http://www.applefritter.com/node/20378 scroll down towards the bottom of the page. It's neither electrolytic or 22uF (seemingly, the European comma decimal point is confusing the writer), and it didn't fail by 'drying out' as the writer writes. It's 0.22 uF and (probably) mylar or polystyrene, and a replacement should be 'line-rated' as it's somewhat obviously part of the line filter. The writer seems to have gotten the replacement about right regardless (?). > I'd actually expect the electrolytics to be getting dodgey after 20+ years. I expect many will differ in opinion, but I don't worry much about 'modern' (60's and later) electrolytic caps. Very roughly speaking, my assessment for 'lytics tends along the lines: - industrial quality equipment pre late-50s: worry - " " " post late-50s: don't worry - consumer-quality equipment pre late-60s: worry - " " " post late-60s: don't worry with some gray areas in between, etc. Maybe it's the climate around here (mild) but other than early tube equipment and the occassional leaking one (and the well-known manufacturing problems in the mid/late-90's), I don't often have problems from electrolytics; or to put it another way, I'm of the feeling the concern over electrolytics is overstated. To put it more concisely perhaps, I think the well-justified concern/experience with early 'lytics has carried too far over to more modern equipment/components. From rickb at bensene.com Tue May 29 19:27:03 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:27:03 -0700 Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) In-Reply-To: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Motion seconded. I can't see how anything related to digital cameras (except some of the very early video digitizing stuff) has anything to do with classic computing. -Rick From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 29 12:49:11 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:49:11 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070529074116.06ce1670@mail> Message-ID: <465C6796.E09E3362@cs.ubc.ca> Other arguments notwithstanding, look at the guy's other auctions: - an ordinary 60's-era panel-mount variable resistor for $49 !!? (it has a (wow) solid brass shaft!) - a bunch of old-style connector pins which he claims to be "solid gold". He cut one in half to see, but doesn't show a photo of said cut. When cutting such stuff the gold plate can smear into the cut. They're old (I've seen them in early 60's equip.), so it can be expected to be a good thick plating, but solid: hardly. With that said, I have a shoe-box-sized pile of concentrated gold-plate stuff (snipped PCB edges, connectors, pins, ICs, etc.) from scrapped equipment that I have to find a way to turn into money someday. There used to be an electronics war-surplus shop in town (survived from the 50s or early 60s till the mid-90s); prominent on a corner of the proprietor's desk was a deep tray filled with a bath (a strong acid?) which he'd throw PCB snippings, etc. into to do his own gold recovery. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 29 19:31:18 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:31:18 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> <465BBF44.50309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <465CC5D7.75706482@cs.ubc.ca> (Pardon if this comes through a second time, I didn't see it show up after the first attempt at posting.) Other arguments notwithstanding, look at the guy's other auctions: - an ordinary 60's-era panel-mount variable resistor for $49 !!? (it has a (wow) solid brass shaft!) - a bunch of old-style connector pins which he claims to be "solid gold". He cut one in half to see, but doesn't show a photo of said cut. When cutting such stuff the gold plate can smear into the cut. They're old (I've seen them in early 60's equip.), so it can be expected to be a good thick plating, but solid: hardly. With that said, I have a shoe-box-sized pile of concentrated gold-plate stuff (snipped PCB edges, connectors, pins, ICs, etc.) from scrapped equipment that I have to find a way to turn into money someday. There used to be an electronics surplus shop in town (survived from the 50s or early 60s till the mid-90s); prominent on a corner of the proprietor's desk was a deep tray filled with a bath (a strong acid?) which he'd throw PCB snippings, etc. into to do his own gold recovery. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 29 19:41:35 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 29 May 2007 17:41:35 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465CC3E6.905F7350@cs.ubc.ca> References: <446818.5713.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <1180478913.465cadc14ef82@secure.zipcon.net> <465CC3E6.905F7350@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1180485695.465cc83f95c4d@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Brent Hilpert : > Maybe it's the climate around here (mild) but other than early tube > equipment > and the occassional leaking one (and the well-known manufacturing > problems in > the mid/late-90's), I don't often have problems from electrolytics; or > to put > it another way, I'm of the feeling the concern over electrolytics is > overstated. > To put it more concisely perhaps, I think the well-justified > concern/experience with early 'lytics has carried too far over to more > modern equipment/components. other than some tantalium caps that failed when someone plugged an I/O board backwards into an Altair 8800 (and I had to replace the caps for them almost 10 years after the Altair had been built) the only caps I have had fail on me are electrolytic caps, the usual failure mode is that they start to bulge and leak and then fail. Part of that fault may be with equipment manufacturers putting capacitors in that -just- meet specs or are barely beyond the minimum needed cap for the application. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 18:25:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 00:25:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465ADD3B.2020106@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at May 28, 7 07:46:35 am Message-ID: > > When you have a part that's "95%" functional (so to > > speak) in your hands??? You'd blow $15+ dollars on > > shipping an unusual part, assuming you could find it? > > Plus the cost of the replacement? Suddenly I'm > > smelling horse poopies everywhere. > > Get off this list now !!!! Ooops, I thought repair methods were on-topic here ;-) > Give me clean air ... > The other factor for repair vs replacement is your test > equipment and things like a schematic. Repairing a switching I've long since given up requiring a schematic to repair a classic computer. Most of the time they are not available (if they are, and they're accurate, it's a bonus). I just produce my own. > power supply is one the last things I would want to do. Why? OK, if the chopper transsitor has blown, it may well mean other components have failed as well (either as the cause of the transsitor's damage, or because of it). But if a large-ish capacitor has failed, it's unlikely there'll be other problems, so it's worth just replacing it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 18:38:29 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 00:38:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <324820.83940.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 28, 7 04:39:27 pm Message-ID: > OK, here's a compromise: someone with loads of time > on their hands, no wife, no kids, no job, no cats, no ^^^^^^^ Ah well, that lets me off the hook, then :-)_ > turtles, exchange the _catastrophic_ Apple 3 p/s for a ^^^^^^^ As does that (I have a BBC buggy, which is essentially the same as the sort of phyiscal turtle you'd use with logo :-)) As regards having spare time, it's amazing how complicated some of my repairs can be...But replacing a capcitor isn't one of them > working one. Then proceed to *exchange* the failed > $.30 component, which in no way could take more then > 15 minutes (assuming you know how to get a p/s out of > a puter - part of the work is already done, gotcha > there), then proceed to stick your *newly working* p/s OK, how do you know the repalciement PSU is working? And how do you know it will stay working? Most of the time a capacitor fails from old age, nothing more. The 'new' PSU is probably about as old as the one you've taken out, its capacitors might well fail after a short period of use. Why not replace them with genuinely new ones. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 19:09:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 01:09:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: <1180428472.17219.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 29, 7 09:47:52 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, 2007-05-27 at 00:28 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I've also yet to see a digital camera that comes close to the qualtiy of > > results from my film cameras. I am not talking about apparent sharpness, > > that can be tweaked. I am talking about detail in the image. > > You're very fond of saying this, but I've yet to see you make an honest > comparison. Invariably a couple of posts after claiming that no digital > camera can match the quality of your film camera, you reveal that you're > talking about 8x10" large-format. When we're discussing sub-200 quid Actually 5*4 large format, but anyway. My commant is that I will consider buying a digital camera when the results are better than those from my film cameras. And yes, I own3 large-format cameras. > cameras to get a quick photo of an unidentifed board, which is likely to > be more useful (or indeed useful in any way)? I don;t dispute digital cameras have their uses -- if I was a press photogrpaher, it would be very silly not to use a digital camera onw. But I don't see the use for one myself. Even for taking a quick snap of a PCB, I'd just use a 35mm SLR. As I said in an earlier post, I can take the exposed film to a high street shop and, 30 minutes later get a set of prints, a set of original negatives, and a CD-ROM of JPEGs. No the rssolution of the prints (or CD-ROM scans) is not all that my camera can manage, but like a 'cheap' digital camera, it's good enough. And I have the negatives if I need anything better. OK, if I had a digital cameera, I'd use it. But to be honest, I can't afford one. YEs, I'd save the cost of film and processing, but I'd have to buy the camera, buy a pC, by the equipment to maintain them, and so on. That'd buy an awful lot of film. I;ve yet to see a digital camera service manual, so %deity knows what I do whne it fails. For my (totalyl mechanical, I may add) film cameras, I just take them apart and fix them. And they'll be good for a few more decades. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 19:12:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 01:12:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465C08FD.2040800@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at May 29, 7 06:05:33 am Message-ID: > Wasn't there a similar issue with the hard drive low-level formatter, in that > it was never released by Apple - so you couldn't take a Lisa ProFile and > format it for a ///, and nor could you do drive replacement in the field - > instead the whole faulty unit presumably got sent back to Apple for repair. Wasn't there one drive -- and I think it was an Apple -- where you had to temprorially replace a microcontroller chip to be able to do a low-level format? And of course that specially-programemd microcontrolller was never avaialble to normal customers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 18:46:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 00:46:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <465B7F94.7040104@hawkmountain.net> from "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." at May 28, 7 09:19:16 pm Message-ID: > How about vacuum sealing ? :-) long as your not trying to run it in a > vacuum Hard drives are, of course not totally sealed, there is a flitered 'breather' connecting the drive enclosure to the outside world. My worry with storing them in a vacuum would be what happnes when you bring them back to atmospheric pressure. Air flows back through that filter into the drive. Will it bring dust, etc, from the filter onto the platters? Probably not, but... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 19:11:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 01:11:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: More with the Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <1180436462.6792.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 29, 7 12:01:02 pm Message-ID: > > Or real madmen with a lathe/mill and a dividing head can machine it > > themselves from metal tubing ;-) > > You scare me. You're literally at the far end of the next country > along, and you still scare me. Why? How else do you expect me to do when I need a replacemnt roller, spindle, spacer, gear, pulley, etc for a classic computer. Or when I need to make up some special tool to repair -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 19:27:55 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 01:27:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465C9FA4.4080508@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at May 29, 7 10:48:20 pm Message-ID: > The feature that I like is the special two-click cursor keys; > you press a bit harder, and the cursor move a bit faster. There's > a second switch under the key, with a stronger spring, that makes > the auto-repeat run faster (just on the cursor keys). The HP9845B has something a bit like that. Gentle pressure on a cursor key moves the cursor one space. Harder pressure causes it to auto-repeat. That machine uses those saturable-ferite keys I mentioned in another message. There are 2 cores in each cursor switch, one drive loop threaded through both of them, and separate sense loops for each core. Pressing the key generly desaturates the first core. pressing it harder desaturates both of them The keybaord is electrically wired so that the second core of each cursor key appears at the same position in the matrx as the repeat key :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 19:15:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 01:15:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: digital camera capabilities In-Reply-To: from "Tim Walls" at May 29, 7 12:46:01 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote... > > The right way to get better depth of field for oblique shots is to tilt > > the lens (!). > > [...] > > The problem is that no digital camera has a tilting front. > > In the interests of completeness, I should say that this isn't strictly > speaking true. Canon make EOS mount tilt/shift lenses, which will work on > any of their digital SLRs (three of them, 24, 45 and 90mm IIRC.) In fact, I'm suprised about the 90mm.. Normally thsee things are wide angle. I hadn't eralised they were available for DSLRs. I've seen them for normal 35mm flim SLRs -- in fact I did consider buying a PC-Nikkor (PC = Perspective Control -- i.e. tilt and shift) for my Nikon F. But then I relaised a large-format camera was about the same price... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 19:32:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 01:32:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <637657.56838.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 29, 7 02:50:05 pm Message-ID: > I guess this is some sort of joke. If you're new here, this is a persistent flamewar here between those, like myself, who favour component level repair, and those that don't. OK, I mist admit I do sometimes take it to extremes. I'm the sort of person who even repairs modern cheap comsumer electronics... > But again the triviality of such a repair can't be > underestimated. In fact, you should be GLAD when a > capacitor poofs in yer p/s. It's VERY easy to diagnose > what went wrong (ye can smell it, and oh don't it > smell nice. I ain't kidding. I LIKE the smell of > toasty caps. And machine oil too). And there's only 2 Oh, I don't like smelling defective capacitors (tantalum bead ones are the worst), but machine oil is certainly pleasant :-). I can't understand people who think new machine oil is 'dirty'... > leads. A very easy job. You DO NOT need any test > equipment. A schematic is necessary, yes, but I know Why? All you need to know is the value of the capacitor. Not how it's actually connected to the other components. I would hope that somebody here could look inside their machine and tell you the markings on the capacitor if the original one is so badly damaged as to be unreadable. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 29 19:48:06 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 20:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465CC5D7.75706482@cs.ubc.ca> References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> <465BBF44.50309@jetnet.ab.ca> <465CC5D7.75706482@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200705300050.UAA21018@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > - a bunch of old-style connector pins which he claims to be "solid > gold". He cut one in half to see, but doesn't show a photo of said > cut. [...] it can be expected to be a good thick plating, but solid: > hardly. Not to mention that making a connector pin out of solid gold is *stupid*. Gold has rather bad mechanical strength as compared to more conventional metals, and is expensive; its only real benefit is its corrosion resistance, and all you need for that is gold plating. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 29 19:49:12 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:49:12 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) References: <879889.37231.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730705282058l5f79613ai8d67671bef613010@mail.gmail.com> <20070529040851.GK27871@lug-owl.de> <465BBF44.50309@jetnet.ab.ca> <465CC5D7.75706482@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <465CCA08.53EC46F4@cs.ubc.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > (Pardon if this comes through a second time, I didn't see it show up after > the first attempt at posting.) ..and 30 seconds after sending the second one, the first one from 6 hours earlier shows up.. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 29 19:57:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:57:35 -0700 Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) In-Reply-To: References: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net>, Message-ID: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2007 at 17:27, Rick Bensene wrote: > Motion seconded. I can't see how anything related to digital cameras > (except some of the very early video digitizing stuff) has anything to > do with classic computing. To put the subject back in the domain of "vintage"... What outfit first sold digital cameras where the sensor consisted of a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced by a piece of glued-on glass? Does anyone own one? Cheers, Chuck From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Tue May 29 20:03:14 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:03:14 -0400 Subject: Repairing original AT hard disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On 5/29/07, Julian Wolfe wrote: > > > One CLOK or multiple CLOKs? > > > > Just one. > > I have heard a single loud "tock" from working drives as they release > the head-lock solenoid, but perhaps your head assembly is glued to a > rubber stopper like in some failure modes of, IIRC, Micropolis 1335s, > AKA DEC RD53s. The solenoid would still trip, but the heads wouldn't > load. > > > This is an IBM brand drive... > > Ah. That model is outside my experience with PC-ATs. > > > and after doing some reading, I found out > > IBM-brand drives of this era DO NOT park the heads in a landing > zone, they > > actually retract them. (Perhaps like the Priam disk you refer to) > > I found some tantalizing info at the HTMLization of > www.course.ws/techtalk/downloads/PDF/hardware.pdf in google's cache, > but the HTML file stops in the middle of the entry for the AT, the > original site is gone, and archive.org didn't have the PDF file > cached. If someone happens to have that file cached on their own, > there's lots of meaty technical details on BIOS revisions and more. > > -ethan > Another possibility could be that the hard drive needs to be Low-Level formatted. I have seen this behavior before and IIRC most times using DEBUG to low-level format the drive will clear it right up. It is worth a try. HTH. Good Luck, Greg From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 29 20:06:01 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 18:06:01 -0700 Subject: enough already Message-ID: <465CCDF9.3080704@bitsavers.org> > What outfit first sold digital cameras where the sensor consisted of > a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced by a piece of > glued-on glass? Micron The product was called the "Micron Eye" From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 29 20:33:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 18:33:26 -0700 Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: References: <465B7F94.7040104@hawkmountain.net> from "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." at May 28, 7 09:19:16 pm, Message-ID: <465C71F6.13417.42BFF573@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2007 at 0:46, Tony Duell wrote: > My worry with storing them in a vacuum would be what happnes when you > bring them back to atmospheric pressure. Air flows back through that > filter into the drive. Will it bring dust, etc, from the filter onto > the platters? Probably not, but... The food-sealer type of systems use a very slight vacuum to remove air pockets, so it's doubtful that they'd produce any problems. Usually a little diaphragm pump similar to one used for aquarium air supplies. --Chuck From onymouse at garlic.com Tue May 29 08:40:41 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 06:40:41 -0700 Subject: Storing Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <465B7F94.7040104@hawkmountain.net> References: , <20070528110556.6AD7FBA443A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <465AA473.30305.3BB52B3D@cclist.sydex.com> <465B7F94.7040104@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <465C2D59.1080508@garlic.com> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > How about vacuum sealing ? :-) long as your not trying to run it in a > vacuum > I'd think this would preserve rubber parts and virtually eliminate > moisture. > Really bad. Causes condensation to form on surfaces, lubricants to come out of bearings and harden, volatiles to come out of materials and condense on surfaces, "rubber" parts to swell and harden, seals to extrude. Plastic-cased IC's have been known to rupture, split, crack or even "explode". PC boards with internal voids bubble and warp, breaking solder joints and components. Some drives are hermetically sealed. The seals are not designed to tolerate a pressure differential between internal atmosphere and external vacuum. Clean dry air under pressure ( around 0.5psig over) would be better than vacuum. To store in a vacuum requires parts designed to operate in and/or tolerate a vacuum. Vacuum storage has been tried before using real vacuum and using those newfangled (at the time) vacuum foodsavers (as seen on TV!). Results were not those that were hoped for. Threads about this should be found in the pre-AOL CompuServe PC forums archives. (Or GEnie--I can't recall which, now.) == jd Computer Science is merely the post-Turing decline in formal systems theory. From jim at photojim.ca Tue May 29 20:53:49 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:53:49 -0600 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computerin Canada, In-Reply-To: <465CA0BF.3040200@gmail.com> References: <1180428472.17219.16.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <465CA0BF.3040200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002601c7a25d$5e078d80$0adea8c0@melbourne> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar > Sent: May 29, 2007 3:53 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old > computerin Canada, > > But I'm starting to see cameras that were $5000 appearing on > the used market. I am looking at picking up a Kodak DCS > Pro/14n which was in that price range, and has a full-frame > 35mm 13.7Mpel CCD, a pro-quality Nikon body and takes the > full range of Nikkor lenses, and I'm planning on spending > $500-750 for a lightly used body. You can get deals on > digital SLR if you're in the market. That particular camera turned out to be a very impractical one, unfortunately. Megapixels are not the only measure of a CCD's quality. Sometimes they aren't even the best measure. Film easily outresolves this particular camera, although for certain types of photography it is quite capable. Jim From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 29 20:58:47 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 02:58:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) In-Reply-To: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <998914.96413.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> OK!!! Just joking, sort of. I have several adverts for Interlude (on TRS-80) in my 80 Microcomputing magazines - the advert features a woman on a bed in her underwear laying next to a TRS-80. I just wondered if anyone had it and what it contained. Was it just a clever program with the computer trying to talk (and act?!) like a erm.. woman in responce to something you typed or did it contain graphic pictures of sorts?? If it's the latter then I'm not interested (got plenty of real women for that :) ) and it would be sooo OT. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Jim Battle wrote: Back in 1992 or so, I recall some character at work bringing in a floppy for the Apple II. When nobody was looking, he booted it up. Lo and behold, it was a very solarized, low framerate video of a certain sex act. It was really technically impressive ... the programming, that is :-) . Let's all talk about our pornography preferences. We must have at least a few experts on the list that can share their insights. From dbwood at kc.rr.com Tue May 29 21:06:36 2007 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (Douglas Wood) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:06:36 -0500 Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) References: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <02a401c7a25f$274effb0$697ba8c0@epicis> Micron made just such a device (the windowed DRAM). Never owned one, though. I did, however, have a Cyclops (a 32x32) camera in the 70's, from the Popular Electronics article from the 70's. Got it built and hooked it up and saw an image for about 3 seconds before the image sensor died. Never did figure out why it died, and as a poor high school student couldn't afford to buy another one. :^( Douglas Wood ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:57 PM Subject: RE: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) > On 29 May 2007 at 17:27, Rick Bensene wrote: > >> Motion seconded. I can't see how anything related to digital cameras >> (except some of the very early video digitizing stuff) has anything to >> do with classic computing. > > To put the subject back in the domain of "vintage"... > > What outfit first sold digital cameras where the sensor consisted of > a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced by a piece of > glued-on glass? Does anyone own one? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > __________ NOD32 2296 (20070529) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue May 29 21:16:38 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:16:38 -0700 Subject: DRAM camera sensor In-Reply-To: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> References: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net>, <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <465CDE86.2010903@sbcglobal.net> Micron Technology sold the chips, DRAM's with windows. It was called the OpticRAM. I believe the part number was IS32. I have a few somewhere along with the data sheet but fat chance of finding them. Bob Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 May 2007 at 17:27, Rick Bensene wrote: > > >> Motion seconded. I can't see how anything related to digital cameras >> (except some of the very early video digitizing stuff) has anything to >> do with classic computing. >> > > To put the subject back in the domain of "vintage"... > > What outfit first sold digital cameras where the sensor consisted of > a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced by a piece of > glued-on glass? Does anyone own one? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 29 21:26:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) In-Reply-To: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> References: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net>, <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070529192455.L9612@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 May 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What outfit first sold digital cameras where the sensor consisted of > a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced by a piece of > glued-on glass? Does anyone own one? While almost certainly not the first, Micromint (Ciarcia) sold one, with a C-Mount and tripod socket. I can't find mine. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 29 21:26:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 22:26:57 -0400 Subject: enough already In-Reply-To: <465CCDF9.3080704@bitsavers.org> References: <465CCDF9.3080704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/29/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > What outfit first sold digital cameras where the sensor consisted of > > a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced by a piece of > > glued-on glass? > > Micron > > The product was called the "Micron Eye" I made one of those in the 1980s... I read about the trick in Byte, then carefully removed the lid from a 4116 and installed a bit of slide mount cover. To test it, I stuffed the altered DRAM into an Apple II, covered the DRAM, cleared the high-res screen, then watched individual pixels show up when I uncovered the chip and let light fall directly on it. What I never did was to take it to the next stage and decode the grid. -ethan From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue May 29 22:35:26 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 04:35:26 +0100 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply References: <200705290320.l4T3Jk9d084334@dewey.classiccmp.org><24BEBCA6-10C9-4571-80C7-90C3D1E0BD4C@microspot.co.uk> <465C08FD.2040800@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <004601c7a26b$916da1b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I really liked my ///... I'm just trying to thin the collection >out a bit and it's going to have to go... :-( IKWYM, I reluctantly gave mine away a few years ago as I'd not been able to locate any (usable) boot discs for it. Built like a tank.... I also had a spare motherboard/internal floppy drive/RAM board as well, not sure if I mighn't still have these knocking around somewhere. If I have, and if anyone needs them, drop me a line. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue May 29 22:52:21 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 04:52:21 +0100 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply References: Message-ID: <006301c7a26d$ecfb36d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>....Repairing a switching power supply is one the last >>things I would want to do. > > Why? Personally I've never had any luck repairing switch mode PSUs either....obviously there's some hole in my understanding of them.... Actually, I have managed to repair a couple; but that was when I did a City & Guilds course in electronic repair at college (I was bored....) and had a full schematic and circuit description to work with. But going in blind? TTFN - Pete. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 29 23:06:03 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 22:06:03 -0600 Subject: enough already In-Reply-To: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> References: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net>, <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <465CF82B.606@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > To put the subject back in the domain of "vintage"... > > What outfit first sold digital cameras where the sensor consisted of > a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced by a piece of > glued-on glass? Does anyone own one? I remember reading about that in BYTE. That may be the first place to try. Off hand I think it was 1/2 of 64K x 1 DRAM. > Cheers, > Chuck > From spc at conman.org Tue May 29 23:12:24 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 00:12:24 -0400 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <324820.83940.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070530041224.GA18288@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > As regards having spare time, it's amazing how complicated some of my > repairs can be...But replacing a capcitor isn't one of them Maybe for you it's easy. Possibly not for me. And possibly for the person requesting a new Apple /// power supply (I've lost track of who that was). To put it into perspective you might understand, can you implement a Forth (or Forth-like) system in two hours? I did that the other night because I was rather bored and it was more interesting than I what I was supposed to be doing [1]. If you can't, why not? It's not that complicated. -spc (then again, I'm a software guy) [1] Hanging out online with some friends. Well, I was doing that as I was implementing the Forth-like system [2]. [2] A rather minimal system, and different enough [3] that it probably couldn't be classified as Forth. Forth-like, yes, but not Forth. [3] Managed to get execellent code density (it's a TIL [4]), and I managed to do away with !, @ and most of the stack noise words (NIP, TUCK, OVER, etc). [4] Threaded Interpreted Langauge From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 29 23:22:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 22:22:34 -0600 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20070530041224.GA18288@brevard.conman.org> References: <324820.83940.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <20070530041224.GA18288@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <465CFC0A.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: >> As regards having spare time, it's amazing how complicated some of my >> repairs can be...But replacing a capcitor isn't one of them > > Maybe for you it's easy. Possibly not for me. And possibly for the > person requesting a new Apple /// power supply (I've lost track of who that > was). To put it into perspective you might understand, can you implement a > Forth (or Forth-like) system in two hours? I did that the other night > because I was rather bored and it was more interesting than I what I was > supposed to be doing [1]. If you can't, why not? It's not that > complicated. > > -spc (then again, I'm a software guy) > > [1] Hanging out online with some friends. Well, I was doing that as I > was implementing the Forth-like system [2]. > > [2] A rather minimal system, and different enough [3] that it probably > couldn't be classified as Forth. Forth-like, yes, but not Forth. > > [3] Managed to get execellent code density (it's a TIL [4]), and I > managed to do away with !, @ and most of the stack noise words (NIP, > TUCK, OVER, etc). > > [4] Threaded Interpreted Langauge So just what are the primitives and just what is the CPU? You don't hear about [4] spoken about any more. I like the control structure of Forth but not the fact that it hard to address conventional data structures. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue May 29 23:21:33 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 00:21:33 -0400 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> References: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 29 May 2007 at 17:27, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Motion seconded. I can't see how anything related to digital cameras > > (except some of the very early video digitizing stuff) has anything to > > do with classic computing. > >To put the subject back in the domain of "vintage"... > >What outfit first sold digital cameras where the sensor consisted of >a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced by a piece of >glued-on glass? Does anyone own one? Couldn't tell you the "first" but I do know a system for the RatShack/Tandy line (Color Computer, prolly Model I/III/4) was called the Digisector DS-69B - "Hot Lips" Houlihan (Loretta Swit) from M*A*S*H (the series) used to advertise for the company - I remember seeing them in HotCoCo & Rainbow way back when... IIRC, the first (or darned near) mass produced self-contained consumer digital camera was made by Logitech - back then everything they made was a "man" - SoundMan, TrackMan, etc. It was a something-Man -- hold on, googling now... OK, it was the FotoMan. The resolution was monochrome 284 by 376 pixels, 256-level monochrome. Would it be safe to say that one of those would be ontopic??? :-) Things sure have come a long way... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 29 23:23:09 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:23:09 -0700 Subject: early digital image sensing / was Re: enough already... References: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net>, <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <465CFC2E.8227B296@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 29 May 2007 at 17:27, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Motion seconded. I can't see how anything related to digital cameras > > (except some of the very early video digitizing stuff) has anything to > > do with classic computing. > > To put the subject back in the domain of "vintage"... > > What outfit first sold digital cameras where the sensor consisted of > a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced by a piece of > glued-on glass? Does anyone own one? > > Cheers, > Chuck Don't know if this is the answer you're looking for, but it reminds me of the "Cyclops" camera: a peripheral for the computer hobbyist market, contemporary with the Altair/IMSAI . I assembled one for a friend who had an IMSAI in 1976 or 1977. I don't think we ever got it to work. My recollection is that the sensor was a CCD array, but the occasional mention of these modified-DRAMs on the list leaves me wondering. I don't remember what the matrix size was: 256^2 seems too large, 16^2 seems too small, perhaps 64^2. I'm sure there must be adverts in Byte of the period. It would be a pretty rare find to come across one today. From rickb at bensene.com Wed May 30 00:01:23 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 22:01:23 -0700 Subject: early digital image sensing / was Re: enough already... In-Reply-To: <465CFC2E.8227B296@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: This is on topic. I have an old BYTE magazine that talks about the use of DRAMs with the covers removed and a piece of glass placed over the chip, and using the memory chip as an image sensor. If I recall correctly, the first chip used was an early Mostek MK5009. They weren't great in terms of resolution, but making multiple passes through reading, could gain a couple of bits of grayscale resolution. They needed pretty high light levels, but served as usable image sensors. Many years ago, I knew a guy that made a small business out of using early 64Kx1 (256 x 256 array) DRAM chips, suitably modified, as image sensors for PDP-11 based product inspection systems. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:23 PM To: General at priv-edmwaa06.telusplanet.net; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: early digital image sensing / was Re: enough already... Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 29 May 2007 at 17:27, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Motion seconded. I can't see how anything related to digital cameras > > (except some of the very early video digitizing stuff) has anything to > > do with classic computing. > > To put the subject back in the domain of "vintage"... > > What outfit first sold digital cameras where the sensor consisted of > a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced by a piece of > glued-on glass? Does anyone own one? > > Cheers, > Chuck Don't know if this is the answer you're looking for, but it reminds me of the "Cyclops" camera: a peripheral for the computer hobbyist market, contemporary with the Altair/IMSAI . I assembled one for a friend who had an IMSAI in 1976 or 1977. I don't think we ever got it to work. My recollection is that the sensor was a CCD array, but the occasional mention of these modified-DRAMs on the list leaves me wondering. I don't remember what the matrix size was: 256^2 seems too large, 16^2 seems too small, perhaps 64^2. I'm sure there must be adverts in Byte of the period. It would be a pretty rare find to come across one today. From spc at conman.org Wed May 30 00:12:52 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 01:12:52 -0400 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465CFC0A.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <324820.83940.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <20070530041224.GA18288@brevard.conman.org> <465CFC0A.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070530051252.GB18288@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great woodelf once stated: > Sean Conner wrote: > >It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > >>As regards having spare time, it's amazing how complicated some of my > >>repairs can be...But replacing a capcitor isn't one of them > > > > Maybe for you it's easy. Possibly not for me. And possibly for the > >person requesting a new Apple /// power supply (I've lost track of who that > >was). To put it into perspective you might understand, can you implement a > >Forth (or Forth-like) system in two hours? I did that the other night > >because I was rather bored and it was more interesting than I what I was > >supposed to be doing [1]. If you can't, why not? It's not that > >complicated. > > > > -spc (then again, I'm a software guy) > > > >[1] Hanging out online with some friends. Well, I was doing that as I > > was implementing the Forth-like system [2]. > > > >[2] A rather minimal system, and different enough [3] that it probably > > couldn't be classified as Forth. Forth-like, yes, but not Forth. > > > >[3] Managed to get execellent code density (it's a TIL [4]), and I > > managed to do away with !, @ and most of the stack noise words (NIP, > > TUCK, OVER, etc). > > > >[4] Threaded Interpreted Langauge > > So just what are the primitives and just what is the CPU? > You don't hear about [4] spoken about any more. > I like the control structure of Forth but not the fact that it > hard to address conventional data structures. One version is in C (reference implementation) and I coded up most of it in (severely untested) 6809 Assembly. The "tokens" are 16 bit values, and are broken up as: $0000 - $00FF - push literal values between -128 .. 127 onto the data stack $0100 - $01FF - ALU primitives. Bits 4..7 define the operation: 0 + 1 - 2 * 3 / 4 mod 5 and 6 or 7 xor 8 < 9 <= A = B <> C >= D > E - (operands reversed) F / (operands reversed) Bits 2..3 define the index into the data stack for the second operand 00 - ustack[1] 01 - ustack[2] 10 - ustack[3] 11 - ustack[4] Bits 0..1 define the index into the data statck for the first operand and destination 00 - ustack[0] 01 - ustack[1] 10 - ustack[2] 11 - ustack[3] If the dest index is 0, and the src index is 0 (top two elements on the data stack) then the top of the stack is popped and the result goes into the new top of stack, otherwise, nothing is popped from the stack. So, $0100 would act as "+" does normally in Forth, but something like $0101 is ustack[0] = ustack[0] + ustack[2] or in Forth ROT OVER OVER + >R -ROT DROP R> (I might have gotten ROT and -ROT confused) This doesn't get rid of all the stack noise words, but I suspect it would get rid of a lot of them. $0200 - $02FF - rest of the primitives in the system, typical Forth type words. $0300 - $7FFF - secondary definitions. Value shifted left one bit is the address of the "word" to interpret. $8000 - $BFFF - Mask off two high bits, shift left, address of the value to push onto the data stack. This means that all VARIABLES have to live within the first 32K of memory (I was writing this with an 8-bit CPU in mind). This is the same as: X @ $C000 - $FFFF - Mask off two high bits, shift left, address to store top of stack. This is: X ! I also took a different approach to storing the code. Instead of the traditional headers mixed with code, I split the headers off into their own separate part of memory. So something like: VARIABLE x : foo 3 * 5 + ; : bar x foo -> x ; Would end up in memory like (addresses made up for example purposes only): 2000 variable X 3000 0003 ; 3 3002 0120 ; * 3004 0005 ; 5 3006 0100 ; + 3007 0200 ; ; 3008 9000 ; x 300A 1800 ; foo (address 3000) 300C D000 ; -> x 300E 0200 ; ; 5000 [1][x][_][_] 5004 [previous word] 5006 [1000] 5008 [3][f][o][o] 500C [5000] 500E [1800] 5010 [3][b][a][r] 5014 [500C] 5016 [1804] Over the long term, not only would this format save space, but it would be trivial to chop off the headers to "freeze" the application from futher change, and leave more data space for processing. -spc (I was struck with the idea while reading an old Byte book on implementing TILs) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 30 01:45:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 02:45:56 -0400 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> References: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On May 30, 2007, at 12:21 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > IIRC, the first (or darned near) mass produced self-contained > consumer digital camera was made by Logitech - back then everything > they made was a "man" - SoundMan, TrackMan, etc. It was a something- > Man -- hold on, googling now... > > OK, it was the FotoMan. The resolution was monochrome 284 by 376 > pixels, 256-level monochrome. Oh man that brings back some memories! I wrote the "suck the images out of the camera" DOS software for the FotoMan for Logitech. That had to have been 1991 or thereabouts. I may still have one of the prototypes buried in a box somewhere. The FotoMan worked surprisingly well, and the image quality wasn't bad at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From halarewich at gmail.com Wed May 30 03:25:25 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 01:25:25 -0700 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: References: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090705300125w2bf00b83q84029b9b2cfc7808@mail.gmail.com> from here http://www.digicamhistory.com/1988.html FUJI DS-1P - 1988. The DS-1P was the world's first fully digital camera to be marketed and the first to record images on removable flash card media. It recorded images digitally on SRAM memory cards (SRAM - Static Access Random Memory), with built-in battery for maintaining the memory rather than on a floppy disk as used by still video cameras of that time. The card was developed jointly with Toshiba. 400K CCD. Fixed-focus 16mm f/5.6 (f/4 with flash) lens. Shutter 1/60 to 1/2000 second. *Understanding Electronic Photography*, John J. Larish, 1990, p44. On 5/29/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On May 30, 2007, at 12:21 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > IIRC, the first (or darned near) mass produced self-contained > > consumer digital camera was made by Logitech - back then everything > > they made was a "man" - SoundMan, TrackMan, etc. It was a something- > > Man -- hold on, googling now... > > > > OK, it was the FotoMan. The resolution was monochrome 284 by 376 > > pixels, 256-level monochrome. > > Oh man that brings back some memories! I wrote the "suck the > images out of the camera" DOS software for the FotoMan for Logitech. > That had to have been 1991 or thereabouts. I may still have one of > the prototypes buried in a box somewhere. The FotoMan worked > surprisingly well, and the image quality wasn't bad at all. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From gordon at gjcp.net Wed May 30 03:30:52 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 09:30:52 +0100 Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1180513852.9927.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 17:27 -0700, Rick Bensene wrote: > Motion seconded. I can't see how anything related to digital cameras > (except some of the very early video digitizing stuff) has anything to > do with classic computing. I have a digital camera that is now (and in fact, as of last friday) 10 years old ;-) The image quality is *definitely* not as good as an SLR, or even a pointy clicky Instamatic. Great for grainy lo-fi shots though. Gordon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 30 08:22:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 09:22:25 -0400 Subject: Properly "classic" digital cameras (and imaging) (was Re: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities)) Message-ID: On 5/30/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I have a digital camera that is now (and in fact, as of last friday) 10 > years old ;-) Mine is quite safely "over the line" - my first digital camera was a QuickTake 150 http://manuals.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Manuals/cameras/0306677QckTake150Mac.PDF I picked it up at the Dayton Computerfest (same place as the Hamfest, but was in March or August of each year until they stopped having it a little while back). I first encountered one in 1995/1996, then bought one for myself for a whopping $35 a few years later when I had the chance. All I'm missing is the closeup lens. > The image quality is *definitely* not as good as an SLR, or even a > pointy clicky Instamatic. Great for grainy lo-fi shots though. With 1MB of fixed, on-board, Flash ROM, and no media socket, the QT150 holds 16 pictures in "bad" mode, or 32 pictures in "worse" mode. It's always 640x480, which, by itself, isn't the worst thing in the world. The problem is the amount of lossy compression it needs to fit 16 pictures into 1MB translates to "a lot". The other significant problem I see with this camera is that because Apple bundled some 3rd-party software with it, they never made the software available for download. The pictures are "QuickTime Compressed PICTs", meaning that the outer wrapper is a standard Mac PICT file, but the payload can only be untangled by an Apple QT library (I tried many unsuccessful workarounds). If you don't have the QT150 install disks, I don't know that you can load any other package to gain them. OTOH, once you have loaded that library, all apps on the machine (Photoshop, ImageViewer...) can manipulate the pictures. I'd hold this camera up as an example of a) an evolutionary dead-end, and b) the fact that Apple wasn't always spot-on-the-mark. In its era, it was a passable camera - one button to take a picture (no manual settings beyond a timer or compression factor), but all the other offerings of the day, and even Apple's QuickTake 200 (a rebadged Fuji DS-7 if my research is correct) had removable storage, allowing one to effectively ignore memory limitations to the extent of one's budget. Being a fixed-focus camera, it's terrible for close-in shots. Your choices are to position the object a few feet away so that it's in focus (and perhaps too small to be clear), or to snap on a fixed magnifier lens and squint through the eyepiece to attempt to focus closer in. At the place I first encountered the QuickTake 150, we never could get sharp pictures with the close-up lens. I used the QuickTake 150 more than any other digital camera from 1995 through 2003 (when I upgraded to a DSLR). If you ever get the chance to play with one, I can recommend it, but only to see how far digital cameras have come in the past 10 years (it was discontinued in 1997). The horrible lossy compression makes it nearly unusable for any sort of "busy" subject matter. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 30 09:30:19 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 07:30:19 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <200705300050.UAA21018@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: >From: der Mouse > > > - a bunch of old-style connector pins which he claims to be "solid > > gold". He cut one in half to see, but doesn't show a photo of said > > cut. [...] it can be expected to be a good thick plating, but solid: > > hardly. > >Not to mention that making a connector pin out of solid gold is >*stupid*. Gold has rather bad mechanical strength as compared to more >conventional metals, and is expensive; its only real benefit is its >corrosion resistance, and all you need for that is gold plating. > Hi It is like I said. There are two standard plating thicknesses, 15 mil and 30 mil. I did the math from there. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. It?s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07 From silent700 at gmail.com Wed May 30 09:48:14 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 09:48:14 -0500 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: References: <200705300050.UAA21018@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <51ea77730705300748t47afac6ewf2ae76224db2bb83@mail.gmail.com> Hey, someone bought the big ram pile. From kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com Wed May 30 11:20:17 2007 From: kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com (John Rollins) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 10:20:17 -0600 Subject: IBM AS/400 iSeries 720 Message-ID: I've been offered an iSeries 720, near as I can figure it's probably a 720-2062 but that hasn't been verified. I'm waiting to hear if they have the manuals and software still. He IS sure that it runs on 220v. So, is this worth picking up? I've always wanted an AS/400 :-) Can it be changed to run on 120v? If I don't take it, I can probably pass his info on to someone else. He's located in Washington about 30 minutes out of Olympia. Local pickup only! ------------ John Rollins | KD7BCY | http://www.kd7bcy.com Ham-Mac mailing list http://mailman.qth.net ------------ From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 30 12:17:31 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 13:17:31 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Need help identifying diode specs Message-ID: <200705301317.31225.pat@computer-refuge.org> I picked up a few spare diodes from my local surplus place, and I need some help identifying them.. They're about 3-3/4" long and 1-1/4" wide at the (hex) mounting base, have a threaded negative terminal, and an approx 1/2" diameter positive terminal on the top. They appear to have a Westinghouse (underlined W in a circle) logo on them, next to a diode symbol marking polarity. Next to that is the number "18840100" (part number?) and "8206" (date code?). Any idea what voltage and amperage this diode should be rated for? I tried googling for info, but only found a few places that wanted to sell me one (with at best the info that it's a "semiconductor diode".. gee, thanks). One site also listed the part number "5961-01-198-6175" as an equivalent. Thanks much, Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 30 12:49:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 10:49:28 -0700 Subject: Properly "classic" digital cameras (and imaging) (was Re: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2007 at 9:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/30/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > I have a digital camera that is now (and in fact, as of last friday) 10 > > years old ;-) > > Mine is quite safely "over the line" - my first digital camera was a > QuickTake 150 My oldest is not quite there--a Mustek VDC-300 from 1998. 640x480, but can take a CF card, as long as it's not too large (16MB seems to work, but 128MB doesn't). Miserable photo quality, but simple to use- -and it doubles as a videocam with NTSC output. At $150, it seemed like a very good deal back then. Just shows how far we've come. Okay, so what does one do with these relics? One can reuse old PCs to do various things, but what's an old digicam good for? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 30 13:10:45 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 14:10:45 -0400 Subject: Properly "classic" digital cameras (and imaging) (was Re: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities)) In-Reply-To: <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5/30/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My oldest is not quite there--a Mustek VDC-300 from 1998. 640x480, > but can take a CF card... Miserable photo quality, but simple to use- > -and it doubles as a videocam with NTSC output. > Okay, so what does one do with these relics? One can reuse old PCs > to do various things, but what's an old digicam good for? In the case of my QuickTake 150, not much. One can show it off at a VCF, but in a practical sense, it's not particularly useful unless you are a masochist. In your case, NTSC hasn't changed much in 10 years ;-) so you could still use yours for a security camera or a webcam or whatever. I used a ~10-year-old Olympus recently for my EarthDial... I picked it specifically because it was a classic device with an RS-232 port, *not* USB. I whipped up a perl script to call gphoto to snap the shot, dump the picture, clear the picture, then chew on the image a bit (crop and label) and push it back home via scp. I don't know if it's easy to tell a "modern" camera to take a photo via USB, but all the ones I know of just treat the camera as an external storage device, not a scanner-like peripheral to be controlled. This is a clear case where the older equipment can do stuff the newer equipment cannot (but the vast majority of the unwashed masses don't _want_ to take a still image under computer control, so the feature vanished). -ethan P.S. - this was the rig where I watched an 8MB SmartMedia card demonstrate wear levelling during a loss of about 5% of its original capacity over a period of months. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed May 30 13:43:20 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 11:43:20 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Need help identifying diode specs Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C610@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Patrick Finnegan asked: They appear to have a Westinghouse (underlined W in a circle) logo on them, next to a diode symbol marking polarity. Next to that is the number "18840100" (part number?) and "8206" (date code?). That part number could also be a house number. It sure looks like a Control Data number. All of their components' part numbers for the small computers started with 16 to 18 and were eight digit part numbers. Billy From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed May 30 13:50:00 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 13:50:00 -0500 Subject: IBM AS/400 iSeries 720 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003f01c7a2eb$54136540$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> If you were lucky enough to get software and licenses with it, it is. Docs are not so much of a problem as they are all available on IBM's website. I got a full package for SW/docs/licenses from v4r1 to v5R1 with my 9406-600. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Rollins > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:20 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: IBM AS/400 iSeries 720 > > I've been offered an iSeries 720, near as I can figure it's > probably a 720-2062 but that hasn't been verified. I'm > waiting to hear if they have the manuals and software still. > He IS sure that it runs on 220v. > > So, is this worth picking up? I've always wanted an AS/400 > :-) Can it be changed to run on 120v? > > If I don't take it, I can probably pass his info on to someone else. > He's located in Washington about 30 minutes out of Olympia. > Local pickup only! > > ------------ > John Rollins | KD7BCY | http://www.kd7bcy.com Ham-Mac > mailing list http://mailman.qth.net > ------------ > > > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed May 30 14:11:15 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 15:11:15 -0400 Subject: Properly "classic" ... (was Re: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities)) In-Reply-To: <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200705301911.l4UJBLCI048025@keith.ezwind.net> On Wed, 30 May 2007 10:49:28 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Okay, so what does one do with these relics? One can reuse old PCs >to do various things, but what's an old digicam good for? For want of battery life my Sony Mavica FD5 (Sonys first digital camera 1997) would make a workable 3.5 floppy formatter. But alas it is out on loan, to a friend who is takeing ebay pictures with it. It uses a dos formated floppy and stores ~24 exposure like roll of film as 640x480 jpgs. Still works great at age 10. I have a later model (7 year old) Sony MVC-FD91, I picked up in 2000, It has 14x optical Zoom. It writes 1024 x 768 jpgs on a standard floppy, and needs a charger and battery to be usefull again. But alas this youngster it may have to rot on the shelf 2 or 3 more years, when it then will have shot of bringing this post back on topic. :) The most common use I have head of for old digicams is to lash them up some Rube Goldberg inspired mount design and hang them off of telescopes, in an attempt to image something just plain fantastic from ones own backyard! These projects most often lead to one of two results. Either all involved get to see and injoy the insides of a digicam before it goes to the junk box, OR it become the start of yet one more expensive hobby. Next thing you know you get the idea, that just maybe a bigger telescope, and a better camera, and a hydrogen-Alpha filter... Ok, whats on ebay... I have known several in my life to head down the dark side of sky watching. I would bet there are a few lurking here on this list. Re: ... enough already .. Sorry Jay, but you gota love the wild loops some of these OT postings take at times :) Til Later The other Bob From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 30 14:20:29 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 13:20:29 -0600 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? Message-ID: I just purchased a Hazeltine 1400 terminal from ebay. This terminal apparently has no lower case, so it seems like quite an oldie. Does anyone have information on it? Manuals, escape codes (if any), etc. would be appreciated! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed May 30 14:22:47 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 15:22:47 -0400 Subject: Properly "classic" digital cameras (and imaging) (was Re: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities)) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530152244.051a2eb8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >I used a ~10-year-old Olympus recently for my EarthDial... What's an EarthDial? Awrighty, googling.... Some kinda flavour of Sundial device, hooked to a webcam & Interwebitated... ;-) http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/earthdial/network.html Is the Antarctic one yours? > I don't know if >it's easy to tell a "modern" camera to take a photo via USB, but all >the ones I know of just treat the camera as an external storage >device, not a scanner-like peripheral to be controlled. Sorry for the offtopicness, but I believe it's a "fairly standard" function of today's DSLRs - At least for my Nikon D70, it's called "tethered shooting" or "tethered capture." IIRC (tho I've never done it) you can either automate taking a picture to CF or directly down the USB to the software that requested the shot. Bibble can do this with most cameras that support it. Gratuitous yet sucky attempt to bring this back: View my digital photos of VCF-MW 2006! http://zmerch.30below.com/vcf_mw_06/ [[ Sorry. I said it was sucky! ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 30 14:34:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 15:34:08 -0400 Subject: Properly "classic" digital cameras (and imaging) (was Re: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530152244.051a2eb8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530152244.051a2eb8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 5/30/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: > > >I used a ~10-year-old Olympus recently for my EarthDial... > > What's an EarthDial? > http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/earthdial/network.html > > Is the Antarctic one yours? Yep. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 30 14:54:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 12:54:43 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465D7413.27838.46B039AE@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2007 at 13:20, Richard wrote: > I just purchased a Hazeltine 1400 terminal from ebay. This terminal > apparently has no lower case, so it seems like quite an oldie. > > Does anyone have information on it? Manuals, escape codes (if any), > etc. would be appreciated! IIRC, this was one of the infamous "uses a tilde for an escape character" Hazeltines. Surely, there must be a termcap file wandering around somewhere that describes the control sequences. Cheers, Chuck From g-wright at att.net Wed May 30 15:21:33 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:21:33 +0000 Subject: Wright line mag tape cabinets at Boeing surplus Seattle Message-ID: <053020072021.23701.465DDCCC000DAE5300005C9521604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> Boeing Surplus has 2 7' Wightline Mag tape cabinets with roll up door. Both look good for there age. If anyone has a Need. Priced @ 35.00 each 05-30-2007 1:00 PM Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 30 16:11:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 14:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <255706.63723.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I've long since given up requiring a schematic to > repair a classic > computer. Most of the time they are not available > (if they are, and > they're accurate, it's a bonus). I just produce my > own. But unless you're good, that doesn't tell you the values of certain components. Bypass caps are usually a typical value I guess, but inside a p/s...your guess would be much better then mine... You still haven't told us how you work up a schematic either. I'm losing my patience. ____________________________________________________________________________________Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 30 16:14:22 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 14:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <562425.70543.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > OK, how do you know the repalciement PSU is working? > And how do you know > it will stay working? Most of the time a capacitor > fails from old age, > nothing more. The 'new' PSU is probably about as old > as the one you've > taken out, its capacitors might well fail after a > short period of use. > Why not replace them with genuinely new ones. Very good point. But if you'll remember I, even I was the one who first said there was no point in seeking a replacement when the repair is so simple. It was mainly sarcasm. And I meant real turtles. I have loads of cats too, minus 1 though as of yesterday :( , so I'm off the hook also. Don't even got no Apple 3 anyhow. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 30 16:30:18 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 14:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <358120.17689.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > OK, if I had a digital cameera, I'd use it. But to > be honest, I can't > afford one. YEs, I'd save the cost of film and > processing, but I'd have > to buy the camera, buy a pC, by the equipment to > maintain them, and so > on. That'd buy an awful lot of film. Some are extremely inexpensive. My only gripe about the Digitrex DSC-2100 was that it took a bit too long to "save" an image to the cflash card. My dinky little Nikon does better it seems, but that battery is worthless for *long* sessions of saving pages of text (not that I've done alot of it to date, but I've noticed). I'm thinking I can build a dummy battery and tie in real voltage, even from a different set of batteries. But I've heard that at least some cell phones don't allow you to do this (they perform some sort of "authentication" for want of a better term) to see if the original battery is indeed in place. Hey go ahead, gripe about image quality and such from a digicam (although I hold out that with some care, you can achieve very suitable results). But it beats flipping a book over a scanner 90,000,000 times. You can build an automated thingee like, I've been learning from at least one example I saw on the net (in Japan in fact), and plan to do it one of these days. > I;ve yet to see a digital camera service manual, so > %deity knows what I > do whne it fails. Toss it if it's cheap enough. Believe you me, I'm tossing stuff these days I never thought I would. Sometimes it's even gratifying. And never mind the manual Tony. Those chips will be for the most part entirley unobtainable. Alltronics has some realy cheap ccd modules though. $1.25 and $2.50 I think. ____________________________________________________________________________________Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 30 16:34:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 14:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465CC3E6.905F7350@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <137763.16161.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > I expect many will differ in opinion, but I don't > worry much about 'modern' > (60's and > later) electrolytic caps. Very roughly speaking, my > assessment for 'lytics > tends along the lines: I saw a rather large set of *electrolytics* in a PDP-8e gushing all over the places (I assume they were electrolytics, looked like 1:2 scale coke cans). I've been told a good number of those machines were used in NC environments (actually was told CNC - NOT. There is a difference), so perhaps that had something to do with their demise. The machine was still working though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 30 16:37:28 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 14:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465CC5D7.75706482@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <835102.16989.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > With that said, I have a shoe-box-sized pile of > concentrated gold-plate stuff > (snipped PCB edges, connectors, pins, ICs, etc.) > from scrapped equipment that > I have to find a way to turn into money someday. They use solvents or whatever typically I guess, but the addition of a lot of heat might do it too. You can build a small gas furnace for probably much less then $100 USD. Theoretically the temperature will be limited only by the quality of the refractory cement used. Oi whatever. ____________________________________________________________________________________Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 30 16:42:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 14:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) In-Reply-To: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <167155.36863.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > To put the subject back in the domain of > "vintage"... > > What outfit first sold digital cameras where the > sensor consisted of > a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced > by a piece of > glued-on glass? Does anyone own one? Don't know. But Steve Ciarcia published plans for something like that. In Byte or somewhere. There was also a set of plans to connect something similar to a Commie 64. Think I saw it in a book, don't ask me the title. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 30 16:50:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 14:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Roger Merchberger wrote: > Couldn't tell you the "first" but I do know a system > for the RatShack/Tandy > line (Color Computer, prolly Model I/III/4) was > called the Digisector > DS-69B - "Hot Lips" Houlihan (Loretta Swit) from > M*A*S*H (the series) used > to advertise for the company - I remember seeing > them in HotCoCo & Rainbow > way back when... Let's not leave out early framegrabbers. Anyone remember ComputerEyes? I saw one on eBay a few years ago, cheap too, but got lazy. I remember going into a computer store on Long Island and seeing a b&w Panasonic ntsc camera hooked to an Amiga through some sort of framegrabber. And the idea was to produce a color picture using r,g, and b colored filters in front of the lense, and through some funky software conglomerating the 3. That dude didn't have much experience playing with those warez though. LOL LOL it just looked like a big mess. A book that I never owned, though perused on occasion (?) called something like Practical Image Processing in C had plans for a frame grabber. Prolly dated from the late 80's. Someone should build that for fun. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 30 16:58:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 14:58:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Properly "classic" digital cameras (and imaging) (was Re: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities)) In-Reply-To: <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <414159.22678.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > My oldest is not quite there--a Mustek VDC-300 from > 1998. 640x480, > but can take a CF card, as long as it's not too > large (16MB seems to > work, but 128MB doesn't). Miserable photo quality, > but simple to use- > -and it doubles as a videocam with NTSC output. At > $150, it seemed > like a very good deal back then. Is that simply a matter of reprogramming the firmware to get it to recognize larger memory cards, or is it a function of hardware? If it's a cf card, shouldn't it be programmed to support fat16 or fat32? > Just shows how far we've come. > > Okay, so what does one do with these relics? One > can reuse old PCs > to do various things, but what's an old digicam good > for? Archiving manuals and such. Just try it sometime. ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 30 17:02:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 16:02:25 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <835102.16989.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <835102.16989.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465DF471.30400@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > They use solvents or whatever typically I guess, but > the addition of a lot of heat might do it too. You can > build a small gas furnace for probably much less then > $100 USD. Theoretically the temperature will be > limited only by the quality of the refractory cement > used. Oi whatever. > Charcoal is the low cost fuel ... But then I don't think one would get that much gold to need a furnace. The books are here. http://www.lindsaybks.com/ *The Ferrotype and How to Make It* looks like a nice 1891 re-print. Let see if you can even find your digital camera 100+ years from now. From Felix.Kunz at digitallogic.com Wed May 30 10:13:40 2007 From: Felix.Kunz at digitallogic.com (Felix Kunz) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:13:40 +0200 Subject: 82S131 Message-ID: <465DB07E.944E.002F.0@digitallogic.com> Dear Jay have you some PAL 82S131 for sale ? I'm looking for our PDP11 machines some. Offer me 100pc of 82S131. Thank you Felix Kunz DIGITAL-LOGIC AG | Felix Kunz | Chairman, CEO Nordstrasse 11/F | CH-4542 Luterbach | Switzerland Tel. +41 (0)32 681 58 00 | Fax +41 (0)32 681 58 01 www.digitallogic.com From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed May 30 11:48:12 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:48:12 +0100 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F74@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Having just increased my collection with a VAX 4000-300 I have hit on a minor problem. The mains connector into the H7874 PSU is a normal IEC connector with one exception. Directly below the middle pin is a rib or ridge that would require a groove or slot in the mating free connector. Before I start hacking up cables does anybody recognise this plug. Rod Smallwood From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 30 14:03:14 2007 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 15:03:14 -0400 Subject: Properly "classic" digital cameras (and imaging) (was Re: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities)) In-Reply-To: References: <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530144307.059ac178@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >I used a ~10-year-old Olympus recently for my EarthDial... What's an EarthDial? Awrighty, googling.... Some kinda flavour of Sundial device, hooked to a webcam & Interwebitated... ;-) http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/earthdial/network.html Is the Antarctic one yours? > I don't know if >it's easy to tell a "modern" camera to take a photo via USB, but all >the ones I know of just treat the camera as an external storage >device, not a scanner-like peripheral to be controlled. Sorry for the offtopicness, but I believe it's a "fairly standard" function of today's DSLRs - At least for my Nikon D70, it's called "tethered shooting" or "tethered capture." IIRC (tho I've never done it) you can either automate taking a picture to CF or directly down the USB to the software that requested the shot. Bibble can do this with most cameras that support it. Gratuitous yet sucky attempt to bring this back: View my digital photos of VCF-MW 2006! http://zmerch.30below.com/vcf_mw_06/ [[ Sorry. I said it was sucky! ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 30 17:28:45 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:28:45 +0100 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F74@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On 30/5/07 17:48, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > The mains connector into the H7874 PSU is a normal IEC connector with > one exception. > Directly below the middle pin is a rib or ridge that would require a > groove or slot in the > mating free connector. Yep, it's a right-angle kettle lead; if you've got one that'll work nicely. >From what I can see amongst my VAXen it was only the QBUS machines that warranted that sort of power cable; the whole thing was interlocked so that if there was a power cable in there you couldn't do anything other than disconnect. Even when you wanted to remove the PSU you had to make sure there was nothing in the way of the interlocks..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 30 17:49:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 18:49:56 -0400 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3629638E-1D52-4A9A-B23C-2639BEE62C5E@neurotica.com> On May 30, 2007, at 3:20 PM, Richard wrote: > I just purchased a Hazeltine 1400 terminal from ebay. This terminal > apparently has no lower case, so it seems like quite an oldie. Cool! I saw that, and would've chased it if I weren't out of money at the moment. I sat in front of a 1420, and later a 1500, for a long time many years ago. > Does anyone have information on it? Manuals, escape codes (if any), > etc. would be appreciated! I might have a manual for the 1420 somewhere, I will dig. I believe it's almost identical to the 1400. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 30 17:55:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 18:55:15 -0400 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F74@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F74@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On May 30, 2007, at 12:48 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Having just increased my collection with a VAX 4000-300 I have hit > on a minor problem. > The mains connector into the H7874 PSU is a normal IEC connector with > one exception. > Directly below the middle pin is a rib or ridge that would require a > groove or slot in the > mating free connector. > > Before I start hacking up cables does anybody recognise this plug. It's one of the three standard IEC power connectors; I don't recall the IEC number for that one offhand. Over the years I've developed a reasonable stash of them, but in a pinch I've taken a knife to a standard IEC power cable and made the appropriate notch...that trick works fine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcarlini at iee.org Wed May 30 18:00:54 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:00:54 +0100 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F74@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <000601c7a30e$61c923f0$c901a8c0@uatempname> >Before I start hacking up cables does anybody recognise this plug. Yes. It's rated for 15A rather than 13A (or some such, I forget the exact numbers). A kettle lead will often have one of those plugs. Antonio From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed May 30 18:07:08 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 18:07:08 -0500 Subject: IBM AS/400 iSeries 720 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005501c7a30f$3f3fc810$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I just reread your post, a 220V machine should really be left as such unless you want a major project. Remember that dropping it to 110-120V is going to double the amperage needed, and something that you should do only VERY carefully, but then you need to add up the draw from everything in the unit, which may or may not be written somewhere - an AS/400 is a very turnkey machine, they aren't meant to be modified like that. If you're serious about this, ask the guys at frankenseries.com, they do all sorts of ugly hacks like that. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Rollins > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:20 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: IBM AS/400 iSeries 720 > > I've been offered an iSeries 720, near as I can figure it's > probably a 720-2062 but that hasn't been verified. I'm > waiting to hear if they have the manuals and software still. > He IS sure that it runs on 220v. > > So, is this worth picking up? I've always wanted an AS/400 > :-) Can it be changed to run on 120v? > > If I don't take it, I can probably pass his info on to someone else. > He's located in Washington about 30 minutes out of Olympia. > Local pickup only! > > ------------ > John Rollins | KD7BCY | http://www.kd7bcy.com Ham-Mac > mailing list http://mailman.qth.net > ------------ > > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed May 30 18:07:41 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 16:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <522162.70263.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > Directly below the middle pin is a rib or ridge > that would require a > > groove or slot in the > > mating free connector. > > > > Before I start hacking up cables does anybody > recognise this plug. > in a pinch > I've taken a > knife to a standard IEC power cable and made the > appropriate > notch...that trick works fine. Yeah, I've done the same thing - I was under the impression that the "notched" cables were supposed to be for 20A connection, but I've never had problems simply cutting a groove into a decent grade standard power cable and using that. (I would avoid the cheapie thin power cables that come with modern stuff for this purpose) -Ian From drb at msu.edu Wed May 30 18:10:03 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:10:03 -0400 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 30 May 2007 17:48:12 BST.) <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F74@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F74@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200705302310.l4UNA3sM007140@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Having just increased my collection with a VAX 4000-300 I have hit on a > minor problem. The mains connector into the H7874 PSU is a normal IEC > connector with one exception. Directly below the middle pin is a rib or > ridge that would require a groove or slot in the mating free connector. It's defined by the IEC-320 spec. The C15 type goes on the cord, the C16 is the back panel of the appliance. See e.g.: http://www.bulgin.co.uk/Products/IEC_Connectors/IEC_Inlets-Connectors.html The principal difference between the C15 and the more common C13 appears to be rated operating temperature. De From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 17:38:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:38:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465C6796.E09E3362@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at May 29, 7 10:49:11 am Message-ID: > - a bunch of old-style connector pins which he claims to be "solid gold". He > cut one in half to see, but doesn't show a photo of said cut. When cutting > such stuff the gold plate can smear into the cut. They're old (I've seen them > in early 60's equip.), so it can be expected to be a good thick plating, but > solid: hardly. I would be very suprised if any conenctor pins are 'solid gold' for 2 good reasons. The first is mechanical, gold is too soft a metal for that sort of thing. The second is economic, the reason for using gold is to prevent corroosion, and plating is as good as solid for that, and a lot cheaper. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 17:45:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:45:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465CC3E6.905F7350@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at May 29, 7 05:23:02 pm Message-ID: > It's neither electrolytic or 22uF (seemingly, the European comma decimal point > is confusing the writer), and it didn't fail by 'drying out' as the writer > writes. It's 0.22 uF and (probably) mylar or polystyrene, and a replacement > should be 'line-rated' as it's somewhat obviously part of the line filter. The I nte UK (and m,aybe elsewhere) thera are 2 types of mains-rated capacitors, called 'Class X' and 'Class Y' Class X capacitors are rated to stand mains, and are intended to be connected between live and neutral Class Y are also rated to stand mains, but are also designed not to be able to fail short-circuit. They're connected between either side of the mains and protective ground (we call it 'earth'). Even if the earth wire fails, the casing still cna't become live due to a fault in the capacitor. Class Y are (not suprisingly) more expensive than class X, and tend to be made in smaller values only. A typical mains filter stage might have a 0.1uF Class X between live and neutral, and a pair of 4.7nF Class Y capacitors, one from live to earth, the other from neutrol to earth. In this case, i would guess the 0.22uF is a Class X (I've never sene a capacitor to earht that large i na mains filter). > Maybe it's the climate around here (mild) but other than early tube equipment > and the occassional leaking one (and the well-known manufacturing problems in > the mid/late-90's), I don't often have problems from electrolytics; or to put > it another way, I'm of the feeling the concern over electrolytics is overstated. > To put it more concisely perhaps, I think the well-justified > concern/experience with early 'lytics has carried too far over to more modern equipment/components. I would agree. I've changed a few electrolytics in classic computer equipment, but iut's certainly not a common failure problem. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 30 19:00:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465DF471.30400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <899661.87114.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > > They use solvents or whatever typically I guess, > but > > the addition of a lot of heat might do it too. You > can > > build a small gas furnace for probably much less > then > > $100 USD. Theoretically the temperature will be > > limited only by the quality of the refractory > cement > > used. Oi whatever. > > > Charcoal is the low cost fuel ... But then I don't > think one would get that much gold to need a > furnace. > The books are here. http://www.lindsaybks.com/ Gas burns much hotter...unless you're talking about *real* charcoal made from hardwoods. But you know what...gas still burns much hotter. My point was you could mess w/hydrochloric? acid and all that (wherever you'd find it - I know someone's going to point out how it could be commonly had, or maybe it's a relatively *common* thing to find)...or you could just burn off all the volatile gunk in a cheap furnace. But you'd have some steel (pins) left over. That'll melt too...at oh about 2800 degress Fahrenheit. Can't remember if gold melts at a higher or lower temperature. But at least you should be able to separate the gold from the steel. Or come to think of it maybe you could eliminate the steel before the barbecue. I'm not aware of a resistance element that'll go any higher then ~2300 degrees, that being enough to melt brass or prolly even pure copper. But the mints use magnetic induction (with some sort of coil thingee). But that requires and awful lot of juice I'm told. Like enough to light a city block... ____________________________________________________________________________________Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 18:28:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:28:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F74@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at May 30, 7 05:48:12 pm Message-ID: > > Hi > Having just increased my collection with a VAX 4000-300 I have hit > on a minor problem.=20 > The mains connector into the H7874 PSU is a normal IEC connector with > one exception. > Directly below the middle pin is a rib or ridge that would require a > groove or slot in the=20 > mating free connector. > =20 > Before I start hacking up cables does anybody recognise this plug. Sounds like a 'hot condition' IEC connector. It was originally used on kettles, and the like, and was designed (a) to withstand higher temperaturs than the normal on, and (b) it's rated at 10A (IIRC), the normal one being originally rated at 6A. It's the latter that's important here. Any dectnet electronics shop in the UK would stock it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 18:14:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:14:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20070530041224.GA18288@brevard.conman.org> from "Sean Conner" at May 30, 7 00:12:24 am Message-ID: > > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > As regards having spare time, it's amazing how complicated some of my > > repairs can be...But replacing a capcitor isn't one of them > > Maybe for you it's easy. Possibly not for me. And possibly for the > person requesting a new Apple /// power supply (I've lost track of who that > was). To put it into perspective you might understand, can you implement a > Forth (or Forth-like) system in two hours? I did that the other night > because I was rather bored and it was more interesting than I what I was > supposed to be doing [1]. If you can't, why not? It's not that > complicated. I'm not sure aobut the '2 hours' (but then again I didn't put a time limit on replacing the capacitor either), but I reckon I could implement a TIL if I had to. But I also thing that's a raiter unfair comparison. Replacing a capacitor which has obviously failed doesn't involve much thoguh. Implementing a TIL odes. I think a fairer comparison to implementing a TIL would be to 'Find the logic fault in this machine, you have no schemaitcs, and none were ever available0. I've done that several times, i generally do end up tracing out the schematics for interest, but I have been known to fix the fault first. An example of wehat I mean. I bought an HP9816 which had gave an error on start-up. It was something about a memory failure, and gave an address, and 'W:xxxx' R:'yyyy' A web search got me a service manual (boardswapper guide :-)) for a related machine, the 9826, and it appeared the memory fault was in the text video RAM. And assuming W: and R: were value written and value read respectively, the problem was bit 11 (I think). So I started from the DIO expansion slot (which I had a pinout for) and traced data bit 11 across the monitor PCB to the connector where the text video PCB plugged in. I then traced it on the text video PCB trhough a buffer chip to a data pin on a 6116-like RAM. Desoldered that chip and fitted a replacement from my junck boc. Had the machine perfect [1] within an hour of getting it. [1] Well,m apart for ma low-emission CRT. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 18:05:55 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:05:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <006301c7a26d$ecfb36d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at May 30, 7 04:52:21 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > >>....Repairing a switching power supply is one the last > >>things I would want to do. > > > > Why? > > Personally I've never had any luck repairing switch mode PSUs > either....obviously there's some hole in my understanding of them.... In which case you need practice in repairing them ;-) More seriously, there are easy faults with SMPSUs and difficult faults. Easy faults include things like the mains filter cap[acitors going short-circuit nad blowing the fuse. Change the capacitors and it'll be fine. Difficult faults include the all-too-common short-circuit chopper transistor. It may have been damaged by some other component failing (say an open-circuit in the snubber network across the chopper transformer primary), and unless you find and correct that other fualt, your new chopper will fail at switch-on. And the shorted chopper might have damaged other components too (like burning out th ecurrent sense resistor im its emitter circuit, then taking out a couple of small-signal transistors too). In the case of this Apple /// supply, I have no idea where this capacitor is in the circuit (I've not seen the supply, I've not seen a shematic), but it doesn't sound like a difficult fault. > > Actually, I have managed to repair a couple; but that was when I did a City > & Guilds course in electronic repair at college (I was bored....) and had a > full schematic and circuit description to work with. > > But going in blind? Sometimes that's just what yuo have to do. Unless you have a source of schematics of obscure PSU boards... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 18:57:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:57:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: <358120.17689.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 30, 7 02:30:18 pm Message-ID: > > OK, if I had a digital cameera, I'd use it. But to > > be honest, I can't > > afford one. YEs, I'd save the cost of film and > > processing, but I'd have > > to buy the camera, buy a pC, by the equipment to > > maintain them, and so > > on. That'd buy an awful lot of film. > > Some are extremely inexpensive. My only gripe about But as I poitned out, it's not _just_ the cost of the camera. What do you suggest I connect it to? Can you get digital cameras that connect to PERQs or PDP11s? > > I;ve yet to see a digital camera service manual, so > > %deity knows what I > > do whne it fails. > > Toss it if it's cheap enough. Believe you me, I'm That is totally against my principles, and always will be. > tossing stuff these days I never thought I would. > Sometimes it's even gratifying. And never mind the > manual Tony. Those chips will be for the most part > entirley unobtainable. A very good reason for not getting one, then :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 18:54:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:54:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <562425.70543.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 30, 7 02:14:22 pm Message-ID: > And I meant real turtles. I have loads of cats too, I know, but I couldn't resist the obvious classic-computer-related reference. > minus 1 though as of yesterday :( , so I'm off the I am sorry to hear that :-( > hook also. Don't even got no Apple 3 anyhow. Nor have I' or I'd have looked at that PSU by now and worked out what capacitor we're talking about. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 18:51:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:51:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <255706.63723.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 30, 7 02:11:07 pm Message-ID: > But unless you're good, that doesn't tell you the > values of certain components. Bypass caps are usually The time to prodcue the shcmatic is when the equipment is still working, that is before components fail. Then if you have a capacitor with undecipheralbe markings, you can measure it. (and if there are readable markings, they'll not have bene obliterated by the component exploding ;-) > a typical value I guess, but inside a p/s...your guess Actually, for decoupling caps the value is rarely, if ever, critical. 0.1uF seems to work > would be much better then mine... > You still haven't told us how you work up a schematic > either. I'm losing my patience. I'll tell you the basic procedure, but to be honest, to produce an easily-read scheamtic takes experience. What you do is start by maing a list of all the main components on the board, or at least he ICs. And separate secions within each IC. You might end up with something like U1 Z80A CPU U2 74LS138 U3 a b c d 74LS00 U4 27128 U5 a b c 74LS10 and so on Then start drawing. Start with the most obvious part, something that will tie down a lot of signals. If there's a 'big chip' that's known -- like a micrororcessor, start with that. The reason is that a microprocessor cna be used in essentially one way -- the addres and data lines have known functions, and so on. If you trace the data pins of a microprocessor to one side of a 74LS245 buffer, and the other side of that buffer to a backplane connecotr, it's a good first guess that those pins on the backplance connector are a buffered system data bus. As you draw each section of an IC, cross it off the list. That way you don't have problems with doing the same section twice. The difficult bits are (a) making sure you draw the circuit in the clearest possible way (for example if you have 2 NAND gates cross-coupled as an SR flip-flop, you want to show them in the conventional way, you certainly don't want them on separate pages) amd (b) assigning senible signal names to signals that go between pages, and indeed between parts of th emachine. This is when experience helps a lot. I thrace connectiuns usising the continuity test range of my multimeter. It's not foold by diode junctions (inclduing protection diodes in ICs). It is 'fooled' by components with low DE resistance like transformer windings. I desolder those from the PCB before I start, Working out the internal connections of a potted transforer (say a flyback) is 'fun'. Often you have to guess based on the external circuit topology. Boards iwth known large chips (micros, memory, LSI I/O devices) are the easiest to do. Boards with just TTL (or 4000-series CMOS) are harder. Boards with all discretes are harder still. Do not tackle an HP9100 as your first project :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 18:20:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:20:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <6d6501090705300125w2bf00b83q84029b9b2cfc7808@mail.gmail.com> from "Chris Halarewich" at May 30, 7 01:25:25 am Message-ID: > be marketed and the first to record images on removable flash card media. > It recorded images digitally on SRAM memory cards (SRAM - Static Access How can SRAM (Static Random Access Memory, BTW) be a 'flash card'? > Random Memory), with built-in battery for maintaining the memory rather than > on a floppy disk as used by still video cameras of that time. The card was > developed jointly with Toshiba. 400K CCD. Fixed-focus 16mm f/5.6 (f/4 > with flash) lens. Shutter 1/60 to 1/2000 second. *Understanding Electronic > Photography*, John J. Larish, 1990, p44. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 18:25:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:25:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) In-Reply-To: <1180513852.9927.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 30, 7 09:30:52 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 17:27 -0700, Rick Bensene wrote: > > Motion seconded. I can't see how anything related to digital cameras > > (except some of the very early video digitizing stuff) has anything to > > do with classic computing. > > I have a digital camera that is now (and in fact, as of last friday) 10 > years old ;-) Actually, I now ermember I do have a 'digital' camera on the to-be-repaired [ole, and I suspect it's getting on for 20 years old... It's a 'Datacopy 300'. Inside there's a linear CCD (one line of pixels), probably around 2000 pixels long. It's moved across the image frame by a motor and leadscrew, obviously this camera only works for static subjects. Inside the body of the unit are half a dozen PCBs containing the CCD drive electtronics, motor driver, ADC, intensity correction (the output from the ADC is multiplies -- yes an 8*8 full multiplier chip is in htere -- with a vulue from an EPROM, one location for each pixel on the CCD, to correct for uneven response of the CCD)., etc There is no itnernal storage or PSU. There's a DB25 connector on the back. The interfac board I have for it goes i na PERQ OIO slot, I beleive the camera then conencts to the PERQs 'laser printer' connector, which is simply wired to pins on the OIO slot. I've never tried to get it working, maybe I should... -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 30 19:01:40 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at May 30, 2007 11:28:45 PM Message-ID: <200705310001.l4V01eQf026701@onyx.spiritone.com> Adrian/Witchy wrote: > On 30/5/07 17:48, "Rod Smallwood" > wrote: > > > The mains connector into the H7874 PSU is a normal IEC connector with > > one exception. > > Directly below the middle pin is a rib or ridge that would require a > > groove or slot in the > > mating free connector. > > Yep, it's a right-angle kettle lead; if you've got one that'll work nicely. > >From what I can see amongst my VAXen it was only the QBUS machines that > warranted that sort of power cable; the whole thing was interlocked so that > if there was a power cable in there you couldn't do anything other than > disconnect. Even when you wanted to remove the PSU you had to make sure > there was nothing in the way of the interlocks..... If he is talking about the type connector I think he is, it is notched to prevent plugging a normal cord in. This is due to it pulling more amps than most computer cords are rated at. I'm not sure if this is the same thing you're talking about, but I think you're talking about something different. IIRC, I've seen a couple Compaq or HP servers that use these as well. Zane From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed May 30 19:05:58 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:05:58 -0700 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 Message-ID: >> From what I can see amongst my VAXen it was only the QBUS machines >> that > warranted that sort of power cable; the whole thing was interlocked so > that > if there was a power cable in there you couldn't do anything other than > disconnect. Even when you wanted to remove the PSU you had to make sure > there was nothing in the way of the interlocks..... > > I've never gotten around to tracing out what that plunger under the sheet-metal does, though- my current hypothesis is that it discharges the HV caps. From JeLynch at stny.rr.com Wed May 30 19:12:52 2007 From: JeLynch at stny.rr.com (Jim Lynch) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:12:52 -0400 Subject: enough already In-Reply-To: References: <465CCDF9.3080704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200705310012.l4V0Crje020958@ms-smtp-04.nyroc.rr.com> The Micron Eye used controlling the DRAM refresh (soak) rate to provide gray scale. I used a Texas Instruments 256K (512 x 512) as an imager with a Texas instruments DRAM controller to vary the refresh rate. Any ceramic package DRAM could be used after removing the metal lid and more challenging removing the polyimide protective coating. Most DRAM have redundant cells and the topography has to be decoded. There are also some "blank" zones for be bit lines. It was pretty cool back in 1986. At 10:26 PM 5/29/2007, you wrote: >On 5/29/07, Al Kossow wrote: >> > What outfit first sold digital cameras where the sensor consisted of >> > a cermet-package DRAM with the chip cover replaced by a piece of >> > glued-on glass? >> >>Micron >> >>The product was called the "Micron Eye" > >I made one of those in the 1980s... I read about the trick in Byte, >then carefully removed the lid from a 4116 and installed a bit of >slide mount cover. To test it, I stuffed the altered DRAM into an >Apple II, covered the DRAM, cleared the high-res screen, then watched >individual pixels show up when I uncovered the chip and let light fall >directly on it. > >What I never did was to take it to the next stage and decode the grid. > >-ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 30 19:24:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: who invented IDE? Message-ID: <118048.74378.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> I think I've even asked this question before, but got no response. Or at least no suitable ones. Hosers. Though I was recently told that the first IDE card appeared in a Compaq Deskpro. Can anyone confirm or deny? ____________________________________________________________________________________Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php From ragooman at comcast.net Wed May 30 19:39:02 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:39:02 -0400 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465E1926.5010702@comcast.net> One thing I always remember on power supplies is to not take anything for granted when it blows out-- regarding the components health. It's good to have a set of test equipment to check the basics, Transistor/Mosfet Checker, ESR tester, Milliohm meter, Zener tester besides just a DMM (a curve tracer is good to have on the bench). Whenever I'm inside a power supply, I think it's important to take your time and check it from head to toe--parts aren't free-- and more parts can blow out if you only replace the first part that's bad. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Tony Duell wrote: >> Hi, >> >> >>....Repairing a switching power supply is one the last >> >>things I would want to do. >> > >> > Why? >> >> Personally I've never had any luck repairing switch mode PSUs >> either....obviously there's some hole in my understanding of them.... >> > > In which case you need practice in repairing them ;-) > > More seriously, there are easy faults with SMPSUs and difficult faults. > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 30 19:44:43 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:44:43 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: References: <358120.17689.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070531004442.GA5055@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 12:57:27AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > OK, if I had a digital cameera, I'd use it. But to > > > be honest, I can't > > > afford one. YEs, I'd save the cost of film and > > > processing, but I'd have > > > to buy the camera, buy a pC, by the equipment to > > > maintain them, and so > > > on. That'd buy an awful lot of film. > > > > Some are extremely inexpensive. My only gripe about > > But as I poitned out, it's not _just_ the cost of the camera. What do you > suggest I connect it to? Can you get digital cameras that connect to > PERQs or PDP11s? Tony, why don't you just build yourself a USB host controller that you can interface to your PERQ or PDP11's? It shouldn't be all that hard to do, you could even use some common, modern (inexpensive) microcontroller to do this, I bet, like a PIC. The protocols are all documented, either by available open source software, or "real" documentation. There's the issue of not having schematics for the camera, I guess, but I'm sure you can find people here that would be willing to send you for free... and when that one breaks, another for free. Realistically, though, I've abused the digital cameras I've had, fairly well, and they've still lasted at least 3 years with basically no problems [0] until I decided to get a new one[1]. [0] Well, the first one has a problem with its LCD, since it is basically unprotected, and I was rough with it, but it was still perfectly usable. [1] mostly because the improvements in CCD sensors and other technologies in the cameras make it worthwhile to me, to get a new camera every 3 years. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 30 19:45:44 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: more eBay stuff Message-ID: <664536.28416.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-MultiBus-Network-Board_W0QQitemZ200112940595QQihZ010QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem otay. What type of network are we talking here? http://cgi.ebay.com/Manx-Aztec-C-8086-to-C6502-C65c02-cross-compiler-RARE_W0QQitemZ260121825929QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1251QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem pretty cool i must say... http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Intel-Multi-bus-Monitor-Module-Board-1975_W0QQitemZ200112943736QQihZ010QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ok, where's the plug go? Or is that it in the upper right hand corner? Or is that a switch? Or neither? http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-IBM-PC-Assembler-Language-and-Programming_W0QQitemZ200112943787QQihZ010QQcategoryZ74946QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem LOL LOL LOL http://cgi.ebay.com/Nearly-complete-set-of-200-Byte-Magazines_W0QQitemZ330122963198QQihZ014QQcategoryZ280QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem my back hurts just thinking about picking all that up... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From cheri-post at web.de Wed May 30 19:44:13 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 02:44:13 +0200 Subject: More about the dead VAX 4000-200 Message-ID: <2027676844@web.de> Hi all, With the help of your hints, I did some measuring today regarding the voltages. The voltages of the supply all lie in an acceptable range: 12,22V, 5,17V, 3,29V, -12,25V. I observerd recently, that when I turn on the VAX, it comes up with the languages menu und then freezes. The diagnostic displays turns from F to E and then back to F. Turning it off and on again doesn't let the menu come up anymore (and the "E" on the display") anymore. It's completey frozen then. I've got the impression, that some capacitors are playing bad games somewhere. Another thing: On the KA660-board, there are four other red LEDs, which turn on all together (and stay on) and there's a green LED. In the CPU maintenance manual, it says that this green LED stands for "DC-OK". Well, it doesn't burn when power is applied... Furthermore, I measured the DCOK and POK signals: The voltage is 3,51V. Do I have to interpret that as a "signal high" ? Tomorrow, I'm going to measure the signals and voltages with an oscilloscope. Do you guys have any further hints? Regards, Pierre _______________________________________________________________ SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed May 30 19:32:13 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <899661.87114.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <899661.87114.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200705310049.UAA09095@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I'm not aware of a resistance element that'll go any higher then > ~2300 degrees, that being enough to melt brass or prolly even pure > copper. Tungsten in a sufficiently inert atmosphere will get white-hot without problem - that's how incandescent light bulbs work. The melting point of tungsten, according to what information I can find, is somewhwere around 3400?-3425?, and assorted resources claim it's the highest melting point of any metal (and second-highest element, after carbon). They don't mention whether there are alloys with higher melting points. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From halarewich at gmail.com Wed May 30 19:54:38 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:54:38 -0700 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> do u mean this from 1986 http://www.digicamhistory.com/1986.html *NEWTEK Digi-View - 1986. **In 1986 the NewTek* Digi-View, built to run on the Amiga platform, was the first inexpensive video digitizer designed for home computers. * It was developed to take advantage of the Amiga 1000's advanced video capabilities. **Digi-View was also the first personal computer digitizer to capture 4096-color, photo quality images. ** Soon afterward, NewTek followed with DigiPaint, which provided video painting capabilities within the computer system. * The Newtek DigiView video digitizer was the first example of a video digitizing system. It was developed to take advantage of the Amiga 1000's advanced video capabilities and was pluged into the Amiga's parallel printer port. A video cable then lead from the digitizer to either a B&W video camera with a color wheel attached, or to an external color splitter box. The DigiView took 3 passes to digitize a frame, and each pass was done by filtering through one of 3 primary colors: red, green, and blue. This meant that the image being digitized had be still or paused. The digitizer generally captured at 320x200 pixels with up to 4096 colors, but was capable of 640x200 pixels if the system had sufficient memory. Once all three captures were done, the Newtek software then merged them into a single color capture. *Thanks to Patrick Murphy for providing information concering the Digi-View.* On 5/30/07, Chris M wrote: > > > --- Roger Merchberger > wrote: > > > Couldn't tell you the "first" but I do know a system > > for the RatShack/Tandy > > line (Color Computer, prolly Model I/III/4) was > > called the Digisector > > DS-69B - "Hot Lips" Houlihan (Loretta Swit) from > > M*A*S*H (the series) used > > to advertise for the company - I remember seeing > > them in HotCoCo & Rainbow > > way back when... > > Let's not leave out early framegrabbers. Anyone > remember ComputerEyes? I saw one on eBay a few years > ago, cheap too, but got lazy. > I remember going into a computer store on Long Island > and seeing a b&w Panasonic ntsc camera hooked to an > Amiga through some sort of framegrabber. And the idea > was to produce a color picture using r,g, and b > colored filters in front of the lense, and through > some funky software conglomerating the 3. That dude > didn't have much experience playing with those warez > though. LOL LOL it just looked like a big mess. > A book that I never owned, though perused on occasion > (?) called something like Practical Image Processing > in C had plans for a frame grabber. Prolly dated from > the late 80's. Someone should build that for fun. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Bored stiff? Loosen up... > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. > http://games.yahoo.com/games/front > From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 30 20:06:31 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 02:06:31 +0100 Subject: Properly "classic" digital cameras (and imaging) (was Re:enough already (was: digital camera capabilities)) References: <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <004c01c7a31f$ee428900$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > My oldest is not quite there--a Mustek VDC-300 from 1998.... That jogs my memory, my first digital camera was a Mustek VDC-100. I bought it second hand in 1998 for ?50, it was already a couple of years old then. It was truly awful.... I can't recall the resolution, it was barely acceptable, but the pictures always turned out dull and muddy - ISTR the CCD sensor was miniscule (with light reaching it through what could only be described as a "pinhole"), and was covered by what appeared to be a small piece of plastic rather than a lens. Only enough internal memory to hold 20 "OK" pictures or 10 "high resolution" (ROTFLMAO) pictures, no memory card slot. :-( The most annoying thing about it though, was, that even with batteries installed, it was so damn light that it was almost impossible to hold steadily - which is also a problem with my current camera (a Fuji 2800Z). > Okay, so what does one do with these relics? One can reuse old PCs >to do various things, but what's an old digicam good for? I sold mine on eBay when I replaced it with a slightly newer (though equally obsolete) Agfa. I'm not sure digital cameras that old are even much good for learning on though, sure the picture quality is marginally better than say a "110" film camera (do they even still make those?) but in my experience those early digital cameras had BIG problems with white balance and contrast and would probably be more trouble than they're worth. TTFN - Pete. From bear at typewritten.org Wed May 30 20:36:10 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 18:36:10 -0700 Subject: IBM AS/400 iSeries 720 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <645D4E11-7485-4DAD-8A86-D59D8FB23B96@typewritten.org> On May 30, 2007, at 9:20 AM, John Rollins wrote: > So, is this worth picking up? I've always wanted an AS/400 :-) > Can it be changed to run on 120v? Any version of OS/400 this machine is currently licensed for will be transferrable. It is PCI-based and will run V5 (older SPD-based machines were dropped after V5R1). If the drives are wiped, you will need OS media, and an activation code keyed to your machine's serial number to prevent the OS from disabling itself after a 70 day "evaluation period". The 720 cannot be converted to run on 120V. At least, I have not been able to determine how to convert mine. Let me know if you discover differently. ok bear From vrs at msn.com Wed May 30 20:40:14 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 18:40:14 -0700 Subject: 82S131 References: <465DB07E.944E.002F.0@digitallogic.com> Message-ID: <1a5b01c7a324$a31c9ce0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Felix Kunz" > Dear Jay > have you some PAL 82S131 for sale ? > I'm looking for our PDP11 machines some. > > Offer me 100pc of 82S131. http://www.findchips.com/ JameCo's got them, among other places. Vince From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed May 30 21:00:17 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: who invented IDE? In-Reply-To: <118048.74378.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <186960.37074.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Chris M wrote: > I think I've even asked this question before, but > got > no response. Or at least no suitable ones. Hosers. > Though I was recently told that the first IDE card > appeared in a Compaq Deskpro. Can anyone confirm or > deny? Well, if you want to get technical (and I do)... IDE is nearly an extention of the ISA bus. Some of the earliest and/or cheapest IDE controllers were mostly buffers to connect the drive to the ISA bus. IDE stands for Integrated Drive Electronics. So, kinda like an MFM controller and drive bolted together, with a 40 pin connector leading back to the ISA bus. Now, obviously this is over-simplifying the whole thing, but it's not _too_ far off. And yeah, I think the earliest machine I ever saw with an IDE drive was a Compaq Deskpro 286. There was a flavor of IDE for XT class machnes too - the drives aren't really compatible with AT class IDE, however. -Ian From silent700 at gmail.com Wed May 30 21:07:30 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:07:30 -0500 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705301907j4c3f7b07m861921ba615c9632@mail.gmail.com> On 5/30/07, Chris Halarewich wrote: > *NEWTEK Digi-View - 1986. **In 1986 the NewTek* Digi-View, built to run > on the Amiga platform, was the first inexpensive video digitizer designed I remember the ads for those - I thought the color wheel was the coolest thing. I wanted one for my A500. Dunno what I would have done with it, but it was on the back cover of every copy of Info magazine, and it was from the Video Toaster people, so I had to have it. In a similar vein, I dug this up from my basement for a pic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/522496721/in/set-72157600033400926/ Not a digital camera, but a digitizer box like the ComputerEyes or Digi-View, but for the Mac+. I'll have to dig out an old Mac and give it a try sometime. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 30 21:14:39 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:14:39 -0500 Subject: who invented IDE? In-Reply-To: <186960.37074.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <118048.74378.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <186960.37074.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070530211328.06a29080@mail> At 09:00 PM 5/30/2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >And yeah, I think the earliest machine I ever saw with >an IDE drive was a Compaq Deskpro 286. There was a >flavor of IDE for XT class machnes too - the drives >aren't really compatible with AT class IDE, however. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Technology_Attachment http://www.ata-atapi.com/hist.htm - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 30 21:21:37 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:21:37 -0500 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705301907j4c3f7b07m861921ba615c9632@mail.gmail.co m> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730705301907j4c3f7b07m861921ba615c9632@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070530211505.06c37788@mail> At 09:07 PM 5/30/2007, Jason T wrote: >I remember the ads for those - I thought the color wheel was the >coolest thing. It's just a radio-control servo that connected to the spare mouse port. > I wanted one for my A500. Dunno what I would have >done with it, but it was on the back cover of every copy of Info >magazine, and it was from the Video Toaster people, so I had to have it. It was slow-scan, after all, so it could take the place of a scanner or a camera for static scenes. It was certainly cheaper. The Amiga had a real-time video digitizer caleld Amiga Live! with less resolution and color fidelity from not long after its release. - John From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 30 21:29:13 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 03:29:13 +0100 Subject: Acorn Second Processors References: <011501c78952$6f3de780$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463469CB.4080405@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <00d501c7a32b$7b7a91e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> Changing the subject slightly, IIRC the original "Acorn 6502 >>Second Processor" cheese-wedge was just that, a faster 6502? > > Actualy, it's a 3MHz 65C02. Ah, thanks for that....it's been a few years since I had the lid off mine. >>....problems (in fact, total failure IIRC?) when I tried running >>a 65c02 in a Model B sometime in the early 90's? > > I can't think why -- it's a drop-in replacement and lots of people >have done it.... I never did figure it out, it *should* have just worked....but didn't, the machine wouldn't come out of reset. It was a known good processor too, worked perfectly in the machine I salvaged it from (a prototype system I had in my desk draw at work (we used 65c02s as second processors in our terminals to read barcodes, mag cards, etc)) and also in an Atari 400. Wierd. >....Sometimes you need to change the 74LS245 data bus buffer that's >near the 6502 to get best results, but usually only if a Second >Processor unit is involved. Hmmm....I'm not 100% certain, I had two Beebs then, but I don't think that particular machine had a 2nd processor attached (my other Beeb had the Torch Z80 2nd Processor and "Disk Pack"). I *DO* remember also being unable to get a Solidisk sideways RAM/ROM board (and clock speed accellerator?) to work in that machine. In fact, the reason I tried installing the 65c02 in it was bevause the Solidisk board was supposed to support the use of a 65c02 at a faster clock speed - the board plugged into the processor socket and the processor into the board. Maybe it was an early revision main board in the Beeb? TTFN - Pete. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 30 21:29:32 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:29:32 -0400 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/30/07, Chris Halarewich wrote: > do u mean this from 1986 http://www.digicamhistory.com/1986.html > *NEWTEK Digi-View - 1986. **In 1986 the NewTek* Digi-View, built to run > on the Amiga platform, was the first inexpensive video digitizer designed > for home computers.... > ... A video cable then > lead from the digitizer to either a B&W video camera with a color wheel > attached, or to an external color splitter box. The DigiView took 3 passes > to digitize a frame, and each pass was done by filtering through one of 3 > primary colors: red, green, and blue. > ... *Thanks to > Patrick Murphy for providing information concering the Digi-View.* Patrick Murphy must never have used one... it was *4* captures: one red, one blue, one green and one with no color filter (for contrast)... sort of the opposite of a CMYK. I have something similar in a Polaroid product - a high-res B&W CRT in a box with an internal motorized color wheel and a video input. You provide a 15KHz (NTSC freq) RGB video stream to the box, press the "freeze" button, which captures an image internally, then it shows 4 different views through the 4 portions of the wheel and exposes a frame of film 4 times before advancing. I picked it up at Dayton, natually, and managed to come across the essential control panel later. I've run a few rolls of film through it, mostly to create interstitial slides for slide shows. It's not as high-res as sending JPEGs out to a service bureau, but I've used my Amiga to render text on a pleasing blue background, then exposed some nice Fujichrome 100 slide film for a total cost of under $10/roll, or about $0.28 per background slide. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 30 21:31:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:31:03 -0700 Subject: who invented IDE? In-Reply-To: <118048.74378.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <118048.74378.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465DD0F7.22591.481B116C@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2007 at 17:24, Chris M wrote: > I think I've even asked this question before, but got > no response. Or at least no suitable ones. Hosers. > Though I was recently told that the first IDE card > appeared in a Compaq Deskpro. Can anyone confirm or deny? Card or drive? The whole ATA business was thought up, IIRC, by Western Digital somewhere around 1986. I haven't the faintest idea who came out with the first host adapter card. I probably wouldn't have noticed, given the brain-dead nature (mostly some address decodig and a couple of buffers) of the beast. The command set belongs squarely in the ESDI camp, however. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 30 21:42:09 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:42:09 -0400 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On May 30, 2007, at 10:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have something similar in a Polaroid product - a high-res B&W CRT in > a box with an internal motorized color wheel and a video input. You > provide a 15KHz (NTSC freq) RGB video stream to the box, press the > "freeze" button, which captures an image internally, then it shows 4 > different views through the 4 portions of the wheel and exposes a > frame of film 4 times before advancing. > > I picked it up at Dayton, natually, and managed to come across the > essential control panel later. I've run a few rolls of film through > it, mostly to create interstitial slides for slide shows. It's not as > high-res as sending JPEGs out to a service bureau, but I've used my > Amiga to render text on a pleasing blue background, then exposed some > nice Fujichrome 100 slide film for a total cost of under $10/roll, or > about $0.28 per background slide. Would that be a Polaroid Palette? My first (real) job was working in a computer store in NJ...We "sold" those. I quote "sold" because I don't think we actually sold even one in the ~2yrs I was there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 30 21:42:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:42:26 -0700 Subject: who invented IDE? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070530211328.06a29080@mail> References: <118048.74378.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <186960.37074.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20070530211328.06a29080@mail> Message-ID: <465DD3A2.11831.48257CB2@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2007 at 21:14, John Foust wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Technology_Attachment > > http://www.ata-atapi.com/hist.htm I may still have a Wren II in my old drive collection. It wasn't a great drive. When someone says CAM to me, I think of the SCSI interface standards group of which Future Domain and DEC were members. AFAIK, no IDE host adapter ever implemented *that* spec. CAM, compared to ASPI, is much more complex. In the beginning it was *interesting* working with different vendor implementations of ATA. For example, Maxtor, initially swapped the order of the words in the "total number of sectors" field in the IDENTIFY command return. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 30 22:06:12 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:06:12 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: References: <358120.17689.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/30/07, Tony Duell wrote: > But as I poitned out, it's not _just_ the cost of the camera. What do you > suggest I connect it to? Can you get digital cameras that connect to > PERQs or PDP11s? If you have a serial port, yes; they used to make serially-attached digital cameras. Alternately, if you can mount a Compact Flash on your platform, many digital cameras still write to CF cards, commonly with some flavor of FAT filesystem. -ethan From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 30 22:07:02 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:07:02 -0300 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture References: <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <023801c7a330$cf61cf80$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Let's not leave out early framegrabbers. Anyone > remember ComputerEyes? I saw one on eBay a few years > ago, cheap too, but got lazy. I have a brazilian made one. Will put later in www.tabajara-labs.com.br (which has other apple items exposed as well) > I remember going into a computer store on Long Island > and seeing a b&w Panasonic ntsc camera hooked to an > Amiga through some sort of framegrabber. And the idea > was to produce a color picture using r,g, and b > colored filters in front of the lense, and through Digiview (:oD). Have schematics avaiable, just in case someone is interested. :o) From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 30 22:08:05 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 04:08:05 +0100 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in References: Message-ID: <003e01c7a330$e945ec60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > But as I poitned out, it's not _just_ the cost of the camera. >What do you suggest I connect it to? Can you get digital cameras >that connect to PERQs or PDP11s? Actually, my first two cameras both connected to the host computer via RS232 (just data lines and ground) so in theory.... ;-) Newer cameras tend to have USB, but I've never used mine this way as I always remove the memory card and plug it into a card reader anyway. I've not seen any about recently, but before multi-format USB card readers became popular I remember there being numerous RS232, single format card readers on the market - I'm pretty sure Jessops used to sell them. Might be a solution. TTFN - Pete. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 30 22:08:01 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:08:01 -0400 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F74@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F74@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <465E3C11.1080506@gmail.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Having just increased my collection with a VAX 4000-300 I have hit > on a minor problem. > The mains connector into the H7874 PSU is a normal IEC connector with > one exception. > Directly below the middle pin is a rib or ridge that would require a > groove or slot in the > mating free connector. > > Before I start hacking up cables does anybody recognise this plug. IEC C15/C16. Same wattage, but higher temperature, if memory serves. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 30 22:14:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:14:57 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <255706.63723.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 30, 7 02:11:07 pm, Message-ID: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2007 at 0:51, Tony Duell wrote: > Boards iwth known large chips (micros, memory, LSI I/O devices) are the > easiest to do. Boards with just TTL (or 4000-series CMOS) are harder. > Boards with all discretes are harder still. An 8-layer PCB with BGAs and TQFPs on it is *easy*? Maybe after a few dozen good stiff drinks... :-) Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 30 22:18:37 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:18:37 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <200705310049.UAA09095@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <899661.87114.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <200705310049.UAA09095@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <465E3E8D.1070208@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> I'm not aware of a resistance element that'll go any higher then >> ~2300 degrees, that being enough to melt brass or prolly even pure >> copper. > > Tungsten in a sufficiently inert atmosphere will get white-hot without > problem - that's how incandescent light bulbs work. > > The melting point of tungsten, according to what information I can > find, is somewhwere around 3400?-3425?, and assorted resources claim > it's the highest melting point of any metal (and second-highest > element, after carbon). They don't mention whether there are alloys > with higher melting points. I don't know about alloys, but there are definitely *compounds* with higher melting points. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 30 22:23:31 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:23:31 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: References: <358120.17689.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <92A55D8F-58CF-49C0-9280-2480CC056460@neurotica.com> On May 30, 2007, at 11:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> But as I poitned out, it's not _just_ the cost of the camera. What >> do you >> suggest I connect it to? Can you get digital cameras that connect to >> PERQs or PDP11s? > > If you have a serial port, yes; they used to make serially-attached > digital cameras. Alternately, if you can mount a Compact Flash on > your platform, many digital cameras still write to CF cards, commonly > with some flavor of FAT filesystem. Indeed, and many not-so-ancient ones have standard async serial ports. The comm protocols, however.. :-| -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 30 22:34:14 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:34:14 -0400 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/30/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 30, 2007, at 10:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I have something similar in a Polaroid product - a high-res B&W CRT in > > a box with an internal motorized color wheel and a video input... > > Would that be a Polaroid Palette? My first (real) job was working > in a computer store in NJ...We "sold" those. I quote "sold" because > I don't think we actually sold even one in the ~2yrs I was there. It might be - mine is about 6" wide, 5" tall, about 18" deep, with two camera fronts (Polaroid Medical Imaging Film or ASA 100 slide), a number of BNCs on the back for sync/R/G/B, plus a DB25 to a pendant-type console that is the size of a small text book, with a few buttons and a couple of slide pots. I'd quote chapter and verse for the model, but it's not where I am. Since the input is analog video, I don't think it's a Polaroid "Digital Palette" product. It's certainly nowhere close to 2000 lines of resolution. ~500 at the outside, most likely closer to 200 or 240 lines. This one is not clearly meant to be computer-controlled. The way I've used it is to attach a video source (Amiga) to the inputs, a 15KHz RGB monitor (Barco, VR241, NEC 3d, C= 1950...) to the outputs, then visually compose the scene and press a console button to "freeze" the image, which can then be tweaked with the slide pots, until one presses "print". Much noise issues from the machine, the film advances, and one repeats the process. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 30 22:36:09 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:36:09 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: References: <358120.17689.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070531033608.GB5055@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 11:06:12PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/30/07, Tony Duell wrote: > >But as I poitned out, it's not _just_ the cost of the camera. What do you > >suggest I connect it to? Can you get digital cameras that connect to > >PERQs or PDP11s? > > If you have a serial port, yes; they used to make serially-attached > digital cameras. Alternately, if you can mount a Compact Flash on > your platform, many digital cameras still write to CF cards, commonly > with some flavor of FAT filesystem. Fine, suggest the *easy* solution. I liked mine better. ;) IIRC, Tony has a highly hacked up PC/AT, which should be trivial to get to work with CF, just get a 16-bit IDE card and an IDE to CF adapter for a couple $$ of eBay. (Or he can wire one up, but the parts will likely cost more than the whole adapter does). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 30 22:49:48 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:49:48 -0400 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A298697-6A7F-4416-8885-A851DB5F2ED5@neurotica.com> On May 30, 2007, at 11:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > I have something similar in a Polaroid product - a high-res B&W >> CRT in >> > a box with an internal motorized color wheel and a video input... >> >> Would that be a Polaroid Palette? My first (real) job was working >> in a computer store in NJ...We "sold" those. I quote "sold" because >> I don't think we actually sold even one in the ~2yrs I was there. > > It might be - mine is about 6" wide, 5" tall, about 18" deep, with two > camera fronts (Polaroid Medical Imaging Film or ASA 100 slide), a > number of BNCs on the back for sync/R/G/B, plus a DB25 to a > pendant-type console that is the size of a small text book, with a few > buttons and a couple of slide pots. I'd quote chapter and verse for > the model, but it's not where I am. > > Since the input is analog video, I don't think it's a Polaroid > "Digital Palette" product. It's certainly nowhere close to 2000 lines > of resolution. ~500 at the outside, most likely closer to 200 or 240 > lines. > > This one is not clearly meant to be computer-controlled. The way I've > used it is to attach a video source (Amiga) to the inputs, a 15KHz RGB > monitor (Barco, VR241, NEC 3d, C= 1950...) to the outputs, then > visually compose the scene and press a console button to "freeze" the > image, which can then be tweaked with the slide pots, until one > presses "print". Much noise issues from the machine, the film > advances, and one repeats the process. Ahhhhh ok. I've heard of those but have never seen one. I believe it was (more or less) the predecessor of the computer-driven one that my store used to sell. Man, that box sounds like lots of fun! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed May 30 22:50:26 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:50:26 -0700 Subject: Computer History Museum Article in the LA Times Message-ID: <465E4602.1000001@msm.umr.edu> This is an interesting bit about the upcoming anniversary of the founding of Fairchild Semiconductor, a collector who has helped the CHM, Duane Wadsworth, and trying to save computer history. Hopefully it raises the profile of our hobby a bit. I apologize for the stupid nag login. I add in a bugmenot.com login to get to the article. I won't send a copy of the article on the open list, but might send to selected people (don't want to 'publish' it w/o permission, and do respect copyright here). I found this today (5/29) by searching for "computer history museum" in the times search if the link doesn't work. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-semi29may29,1,5667117.story Username bugmenot at dodgeit.com Password bugmenot From rtellason at verizon.net Wed May 30 22:54:03 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:54:03 -0400 Subject: Properly "classic" digital cameras (and imaging) (was Re: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities)) In-Reply-To: <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200705302354.03837.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 May 2007 13:49, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, so what does one do with these relics? One can reuse old PCs > to do various things, but what's an old digicam good for? Well, I'm looking for something that I can use to take some pics of equipment and parts, and really can't afford one. One guy on another list when he found that I didn't have a digital camera pointed me at this: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5375337 but I somehow just can't bring myself to going there... So if one of you guys has something that's not terribly useful in a general sense but that might work for my limited purposes, please feel free to let me know offlist. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 30 23:01:49 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:01:49 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > > > Hi, > > > > >>....Repairing a switching power supply is one the last > > >>things I would want to do. > > > > > > Why? > > > > Personally I've never had any luck repairing switch mode PSUs > > either....obviously there's some hole in my understanding of them.... > >In which case you need practice in repairing them ;-) > >More seriously, there are easy faults with SMPSUs and difficult faults. >Easy faults include things like the mains filter cap[acitors going >short-circuit nad blowing the fuse. Change the capacitors and it'll be >fine. Difficult faults include the all-too-common short-circuit chopper >transistor. It may have been damaged by some other component failing (say >an open-circuit in the snubber network across the chopper transformer >primary), and unless you find and correct that other fualt, your new >chopper will fail at switch-on. And the shorted chopper might have >damaged other components too (like burning out th ecurrent sense resistor >im its emitter circuit, then taking out a couple of small-signal >transistors too). > Hi I've found this as well. You think you got it fixed and pop, there goes another chopper transistor. Still, I just recently fixed a switcher. It did help to have a schematic. It was traced to an open wire on a pulse transformer. I just removed enough potting material to expose the broken wire and spliced more wire to it. It was stressed from the day of manufacture. The supply has been fine since then. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 30 23:02:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:02:05 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: <92A55D8F-58CF-49C0-9280-2480CC056460@neurotica.com> References: <358120.17689.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <92A55D8F-58CF-49C0-9280-2480CC056460@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 5/30/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 30, 2007, at 11:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If you have a serial port, yes; they used to make serially-attached > > digital cameras. > > Indeed, and many not-so-ancient ones have standard async serial > ports. The comm protocols, however.. :-| GPhoto supports many flavors of RS-232-attached cameras - if you can't run it directly, code inspection can reveal many details. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 30 23:02:24 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer History Museum Article in the LA Times In-Reply-To: <465E4602.1000001@msm.umr.edu> from jim at "May 30, 7 08:50:26 pm" Message-ID: <200705310402.l4V42O08019230@floodgap.com> > This is an interesting bit about the upcoming anniversary of the founding of > Fairchild Semiconductor, a collector who has helped the CHM, Duane > Wadsworth, and trying to save computer history. > > Hopefully it raises the profile of our hobby a bit. > > I apologize for the stupid nag login. I add in a bugmenot.com > login to get to the article. Interestingly, it worked for me immediately without a login ... a pleasant surprise for the LA Times. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't let 'em drive you crazy when it's within walking distance. ----------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 30 23:04:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:04:01 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: <003e01c7a330$e945ec60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <003e01c7a330$e945ec60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On 5/30/07, Ensor wrote: > I've not seen any about recently, but before multi-format USB card readers > became popular I remember there being numerous RS232, single format card > readers on the market - I'm pretty sure Jessops used to sell them. I have a serially-attached Sony Memory Stick reader. Simple 3-wire interface over a 1/8" headphone plug, but no idea about the protocol. -ethan From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed May 30 23:10:33 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 06:10:33 +0200 Subject: Acorn Second Processors In-Reply-To: <00d501c7a32b$7b7a91e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <011501c78952$6f3de780$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463469CB.4080405@dunnington.plus.com> <00d501c7a32b$7b7a91e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <465E4AB9.9060301@bluewin.ch> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >> Changing the subject slightly, IIRC the original "Acorn 6502 > >>Second Processor" cheese-wedge was just that, a faster 6502? > > > > Actualy, it's a 3MHz 65C02. > > Ah, thanks for that....it's been a few years since I had the lid off mine. > > > >>....problems (in fact, total failure IIRC?) when I tried running > >>a 65c02 in a Model B sometime in the early 90's? > > I too recently tried that, with three new 65c02's. The BBC would have none of it : it only booted with the NMOS 6502 Jos From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 30 23:16:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:16:01 -0400 Subject: Early desktop film recorders (was Re: Early Electronic Image Capture) Message-ID: On 5/30/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 30, 2007, at 11:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > I have something similar in a Polaroid product - a high-res B&W > >> CRT in a box with an internal motorized color wheel and a video input... > > ... about 6" wide, 5" tall, about 18" deep... > Ahhhhh ok. I've heard of those but have never seen one. I > believe it was (more or less) the predecessor of the computer-driven > one that my store used to sell. I don't recall the name "Palette" appearing on the outside, but I can't remember how it _is_ marked (some sort of "image copy processor"?) I'll have to check the next time I'm in the right basement. > Man, that box sounds like lots of fun! It is a lot of fun. I think it took me finding parts from 3 locations (Dayton, Uni surplus, and online) to get it working, but it's not difficult to use. In my googling tonight to remind myself of the name of it, I ran across several pages on Polaroid desktop film recorders. I had to chuckle (or was it wince ;-) at one page that decried pre-Digital Palettes as "totally useless" because they were designed for CGA and didn't work with any "modern" (VGA) output devices, nor were there any drivers. My device can be attached to a C-64 or a DVD player, or anything else with an NTSC video stream (RGB is an option for computer output) which is still ubiquitous (but for how much longer?) No OS or funky drivers required. My first test image was from a Sony LDP-1500 laser disc player since it has a nice freeze-frame when loaded with a CAV disc (but no freeze-frame at all with CLV discs - common with earlier players). -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 30 23:17:03 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:17:03 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) Message-ID: >From: Chris M > >--- woodelf wrote: > > > Chris M wrote: > > > > > They use solvents or whatever typically I guess, > > but > > > the addition of a lot of heat might do it too. You > > can > > > build a small gas furnace for probably much less > > then > > > $100 USD. Theoretically the temperature will be > > > limited only by the quality of the refractory > > cement > > > used. Oi whatever. > > > > > Charcoal is the low cost fuel ... But then I don't > > think one would get that much gold to need a > > furnace. > > The books are here. http://www.lindsaybks.com/ > > Gas burns much hotter...unless you're talking about >*real* charcoal made from hardwoods. But you know >what...gas still burns much hotter. My point was you >could mess w/hydrochloric? acid and all that (wherever >you'd find it - I know someone's going to point out >how it could be commonly had, or maybe it's a >relatively *common* thing to find)...or you could just >burn off all the volatile gunk in a cheap furnace. But >you'd have some steel (pins) left over. That'll melt >too...at oh about 2800 degress Fahrenheit. Can't >remember if gold melts at a higher or lower >temperature. But at least you should be able to >separate the gold from the steel. Or come to think of >it maybe you could eliminate the steel before the >barbecue. > I'm not aware of a resistance element that'll go any >higher then ~2300 degrees, that being enough to melt >brass or prolly even pure copper. But the mints use >magnetic induction (with some sort of coil thingee). >But that requires and awful lot of juice I'm told. >Like enough to light a city block... > > Hi You don't want to melt the other metals first, most metals will dissolve the gold and just make it harder to refine. The best method is with acid. Muradic acid should work ok to remove the other metals. Gold melts quite hot. I don't recall any heater wire that wouldn't melt first. In an inert gas, as was mentioned by another, tungsten could be used. Other methods include things like carbon arc or oxi-acetylene. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From rtellason at verizon.net Wed May 30 23:18:17 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:18:17 -0400 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200705310018.17617.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 May 2007 22:29, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/30/07, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > do u mean this from 1986 http://www.digicamhistory.com/1986.html > > *NEWTEK Digi-View - 1986. **In 1986 the NewTek* Digi-View, built to > > run on the Amiga platform, was the first inexpensive video digitizer > > designed for home computers.... > > ... A video cable then > > lead from the digitizer to either a B&W video camera with a color wheel > > attached, or to an external color splitter box. The DigiView took 3 > > passes to digitize a frame, and each pass was done by filtering through > > one of 3 primary colors: red, green, and blue. > > ... *Thanks to > > Patrick Murphy for providing information concering the Digi-View.* > > Patrick Murphy must never have used one... it was *4* captures: one > red, one blue, one green and one with no color filter (for > contrast)... sort of the opposite of a CMYK. > > I have something similar in a Polaroid product - a high-res B&W CRT in > a box with an internal motorized color wheel and a video input. You > provide a 15KHz (NTSC freq) RGB video stream to the box, press the > "freeze" button, which captures an image internally, then it shows 4 > different views through the 4 portions of the wheel and exposes a > frame of film 4 times before advancing. > > I picked it up at Dayton, natually, and managed to come across the > essential control panel later. I've run a few rolls of film through > it, mostly to create interstitial slides for slide shows. It's not as > high-res as sending JPEGs out to a service bureau, but I've used my > Amiga to render text on a pleasing blue background, then exposed some > nice Fujichrome 100 slide film for a total cost of under $10/roll, or > about $0.28 per background slide. This reminds me of a gizmo I worked on some years back... My brother worked for a photo processing place at that point in time. The guy who owned it had just spent something like $1800 to get that machine "refurbed" at the factory, and it wasn't right. The setup with this was that you'd mount a color negative on it, and then adjust the controls for a good looking picture on the screen -- it used multiple filters and photomultiplier tubes to split the colors up, and it would then tell you by the control settings what you needed to do in the printing processing to get good prints out of it. Nifty gadget, even if one small portion of it was rather poorly implemented. (And yes, I did get it fixed. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed May 30 23:30:01 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:30:01 -0500 Subject: who invented IDE? In-Reply-To: <465DD3A2.11831.48257CB2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <118048.74378.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <186960.37074.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20070530211328.06a29080@mail> <465DD3A2.11831.48257CB2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <465E4F49.1060702@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 May 2007 at 21:14, John Foust wrote: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Technology_Attachment >> >> http://www.ata-atapi.com/hist.htm > > I may still have a Wren II in my old drive collection. It wasn't a > great drive. > > When someone says CAM to me, I think of the SCSI interface standards > group of which Future Domain and DEC were members. AFAIK, no IDE > host adapter ever implemented *that* spec. CAM, compared to ASPI, is > much more complex. I think my TMS-870 and -885 support CAM. I remember seeing the acronym in the DOS setup utility. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 30 23:32:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:32:32 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: References: <358120.17689.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <92A55D8F-58CF-49C0-9280-2480CC056460@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9FD18C0F-7C85-414B-B424-A1A59C2B7A3B@neurotica.com> On May 31, 2007, at 12:02 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > If you have a serial port, yes; they used to make serially-attached >> > digital cameras. >> >> Indeed, and many not-so-ancient ones have standard async serial >> ports. The comm protocols, however.. :-| > > GPhoto supports many flavors of RS-232-attached cameras - if you can't > run it directly, code inspection can reveal many details. Ahhhh, that's very cool indeed, I thought gphoto was for USB cameras only. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 30 23:34:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:34:49 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <899661.87114.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <899661.87114.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465E5069.6010504@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > Gas burns much hotter...unless you're talking about > *real* charcoal made from hardwoods. But you know > what...gas still burns much hotter. Yep! Hydrogen ... but you don't burn it - it was a plasma arc of some kind. I remember reading about in Scientific American 1961 I think. My point was you > could mess w/hydrochloric? acid and all that (wherever > you'd find it - I know someone's going to point out > how it could be commonly had, or maybe it's a > relatively *common* thing to find)...or you could just > burn off all the volatile gunk in a cheap furnace. But > you'd have some steel (pins) left over. That'll melt > too...at oh about 2800 degress Fahrenheit. Can't > remember if gold melts at a higher or lower > temperature. But at least you should be able to > separate the gold from the steel. Or come to think of > it maybe you could eliminate the steel before the > barbecue. Well you have the Copper Age, Bronze Age then the Iron age. Gold was way back there in the copper age. > I'm not aware of a resistance element that'll go any > higher then ~2300 degrees, that being enough to melt > brass or prolly even pure copper. But the mints use > magnetic induction (with some sort of coil thingee). > But that requires and awful lot of juice I'm told. > Like enough to light a city block... We have VINTAGE VALVE computers that do that already :) From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed May 30 23:52:32 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:52:32 -0500 Subject: WDXT-150 utilities? Message-ID: <465E5490.8050006@mdrconsult.com> Does anyone have them? I have a WDXT-150 board with a WD93024 drive. I suspect that the drive is dead, as it doesn't do anything, including spinning up, but I'd like to be able to run diags on it if any exist. Doc From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu May 31 00:12:05 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 06:12:05 +0100 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) References: Message-ID: <006e01c7a342$3c6d3ef0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....I'd also like to find one of the HP12x CP.M machines. But >I wouldn't even conisder shipping one, so it would have to be >somewhere that I could collect it from. Never come across one of those. Some 10 years ago I used to go to the Coventry radio rally every year, for about 3 years on the trot this one guy brought an original 150 with floppy and hard drives but never managed to shift it. Of course, the year I decided to buy it, I missed out on it by 5 mins.... :-( BTW I know I'm actually getting rid of stuff right now, but....I'd kill to get hold of an HP 370 or 380 (that's "9000/370" or "9000/380") with a hard drive. TTFN - Pete. From marvin at west.net Thu May 31 00:29:36 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:29:36 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) Message-ID: <465E5D40.8F184928@west.net> Interesting! I sold and am selling some type S thermocouples (Platinum/10% Rhodium vs Platiunum) on Ebay, and in doing some research, found that one use of this type of thermocouple is connected with the melting point of gold. FWIW, there are gold stripping solutions available. I don't recall what they are made of but probably some sort of cyanide concoction. The method *I* want to try someday is to use mercury to disolve the gold, and then boil off the mercury leaving the gold (I would guess as a powder.) And yes, I do know the dangers of using this method. > Hi > You don't want to melt the other metals first, most > metals will dissolve the gold and just make it harder to > refine. The best method is with acid. Muradic acid > should work ok to remove the other metals. > Gold melts quite hot. I don't recall any heater wire > that wouldn't melt first. In an inert gas, as was mentioned > by another, tungsten could be used. Other methods > include things like carbon arc or oxi-acetylene. > Dwight From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu May 31 00:41:44 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:41:44 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap"(???) Message-ID: > Chris M Writes: > My point was you > could mess w/hydrochloric? acid and all that (wherever > you'd find it - I know someone's going to point out > how it could be commonly had, or maybe it's a > relatively *common* thing to find).. Someone had to do it ... Muriatic acid, available at any decent hardware store. Not sure if it's strong enough, but you can find it. Sadly, nitric acid is getting a bit harder to come by. Woodelf writes: > Yep! Hydrogen ... but you don't burn it - it > was a plasma arc of some kind. I remember > reading about in Scientific American 1961 I think. Monatomic hydrogen process? Used for welding? Arc splits H2 to 2 H, which then recombines releasing energy. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 31 00:47:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:47:50 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465E5069.6010504@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <899661.87114.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, <465E5069.6010504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <465DFF16.21149.48CF3670@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2007 at 22:34, woodelf wrote: > Yep! Hydrogen ... but you don't burn it - it > was a plasma arc of some kind. I remember > reading about in Scientific American 1961 I think. Very hot is the so-called "atomic hydrogen" torch--H2 is passed through a high-voltage arc and split into monatomic hydrogen which then recombines and burns. It's the exothermic recombinatin that really kicks the temperature up--about 3700C; the actual combination of the hydrogen with oxygen adds very little heat to the reaction. See: http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/AtomicH/AHW.html But for most anything else, oxy-acetylene is fine. A few years ago, I remember seeing a welding rig for jewelers that used electrolysis on water to create fuel and oxygen. The thing drew something like 10 amps at 240VAC and produced a very tiny flame. There was so little heat produced (although the flame temperature was pretty high) that you could pass your hand through the flame. IIRC, gold is usually deplated from other metals (and out of ore) with sodium or potassium cyanide. At least that's what I recall from reading about a "heap leach" gold mining operation. Cheers, Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu May 31 00:49:53 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:49:53 -0700 Subject: who invented IDE? In-Reply-To: <465E4F49.1060702@mdrconsult.com> References: <118048.74378.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <186960.37074.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20070530211328.06a29080@mail><465DD3A2.11831.48257CB2@cclist.sydex.com> <465E4F49.1060702@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <257101c7a347$83482f60$0901a8c0@liberator> I remember some old 5.25" and 3.5" "IDE" drives in Compaq 386's, possibly some of the later 286 machines, before any WD drives were available. The early drives were labeled Compaq, and the company that made them for Compaq was conner peripherals, eventually marketing the drives them selves IIRC. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 31 00:53:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:53:42 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465E5D40.8F184928@west.net> References: <465E5D40.8F184928@west.net> Message-ID: <465E0076.9831.48D49581@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2007 at 22:29, Marvin Johnston wrote: > The method *I* want to try someday is to use mercury to disolve the > gold, and then boil off the mercury leaving the gold (I would guess as > a powder.) And yes, I do know the dangers of using this method. Before modern electroplating, that's how silver and gold were plated onto base metal such as brass and copper. Apply an amalgam of the metal you'd like to plate, then heat the object to boil off the mercury. I've got a book on early Baroque trumpet building that mentions that the job of applying plating seemsed to belong to workers with unusually short lives. Cheers, Chuck From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 01:26:53 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: who invented IDE? In-Reply-To: <200705310446.l4V4jvU2033844@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <435310.6255.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > On 30 May 2007 at 17:24, Chris M wrote: > > > I think I've even asked this question before, but got > > no response. Or at least no suitable ones. Hosers. > > Though I was recently told that the first IDE card > > appeared in a Compaq Deskpro. Can anyone confirm or deny? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Technology_Attachment "An early version of the specification, conceived by Western Digital in 1986, was commonly known as Integrated Drive Electronics (IDE) due to the drive controller being contained on the drive itself as opposed to the then-common configuration of a separate controller connected to the computer's motherboard " ____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed May 30 21:26:29 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 03:26:29 +0100 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F75@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Yes I thought "Kettle lead" and shot off to the kitchen. Er nope, our kettle has a standard IEC connector as found on a million and one PC's. So rummage through cable collection and discover a cable with a somewhat longer IEC connector. Yes! it has a groove opposite the middle connector. But, what's this? The groove does not extend to the front of the connector. It must have been designed to work with a spring clip that was depressed as the connector was inserted and clicked into place when the plug was fully home. Needless to say, removing the small piece of plastic to extend the groove to the front took seconds and it fits. However its not the 'right' cable. I have read the manual for the 4000-300 and theres a nice section on the plug. However it refers to it as the 'power cable shipped with your system'. The picture shows it to be a right angled type and there's a picture of the various wall socket end plugs. None of them are UK 13Amp type. Whilst working at DEC I had a mains cable problem with terminals. The US claimed the German type (Round with two round pins) was standard for the UK. The guy came over for a meeting and I asked him to plug in the terminal using his 'British' standard cable. That cost him a very nice evening out. The solution? We shipped an IEC cable that had a standard UK 13A plug moulded on the other end. They took it to their cable sub contractor. He said "Oh you ment those!" He had thousands in stock and they were cheaper than the one they normally shipped!!! So whilst what I have will probably run, its not the correct cable. It should be a right angled IEC type with a groove or slot opposite the middle pin. Rod Smallwood DecCollector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 31 May 2007 00:28 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 > > Hi > Having just increased my collection with a VAX 4000-300 I have hit > on a minor problem.=20 The mains connector into the H7874 PSU is a > normal IEC connector with one exception. > Directly below the middle pin is a rib or ridge that would require a > groove or slot in the=20 mating free connector. > =20 > Before I start hacking up cables does anybody recognise this plug. Sounds like a 'hot condition' IEC connector. It was originally used on kettles, and the like, and was designed (a) to withstand higher temperaturs than the normal on, and (b) it's rated at 10A (IIRC), the normal one being originally rated at 6A. It's the latter that's important here. Any dectnet electronics shop in the UK would stock it. -tony From gordon at gjcp.net Wed May 30 17:04:28 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:04:28 +0100 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <255706.63723.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <255706.63723.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1180562668.24008.0.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-05-30 at 14:11 -0700, Chris M wrote: > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've long since given up requiring a schematic to > > repair a classic > > computer. Most of the time they are not available > > (if they are, and > > they're accurate, it's a bonus). I just produce my > > own. > > But unless you're good, that doesn't tell you the > values of certain components. Bypass caps are usually > a typical value I guess, but inside a p/s...your guess > would be much better then mine... Well, the value and voltage rating is stamped on them... > You still haven't told us how you work up a schematic > either. I'm losing my patience. Have a guess. Go on, just have a guess. It's simple really. Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed May 30 21:33:19 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 03:33:19 +0100 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F76@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Zane See previous reply to Tony Duell. It may be a US right angled kettle lead but its not a UK type. Kettles here (at least ours does) use standard IEC connectors. Regards Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 31 May 2007 01:02 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 Adrian/Witchy wrote: > On 30/5/07 17:48, "Rod Smallwood" > > wrote: > > > The mains connector into the H7874 PSU is a normal IEC connector > > with one exception. > > Directly below the middle pin is a rib or ridge that would require a > > groove or slot in the mating free connector. > > Yep, it's a right-angle kettle lead; if you've got one that'll work nicely. > >From what I can see amongst my VAXen it was only the QBUS machines > >that > warranted that sort of power cable; the whole thing was interlocked so > that if there was a power cable in there you couldn't do anything > other than disconnect. Even when you wanted to remove the PSU you had > to make sure there was nothing in the way of the interlocks..... If he is talking about the type connector I think he is, it is notched to prevent plugging a normal cord in. This is due to it pulling more amps than most computer cords are rated at. I'm not sure if this is the same thing you're talking about, but I think you're talking about something different. IIRC, I've seen a couple Compaq or HP servers that use these as well. Zane From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 31 01:37:40 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:37:40 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) References: Message-ID: <465E6D1D.93AEA15B@cs.ubc.ca> der Mouse wrote: >Not to mention that making a connector pin out of solid gold is >*stupid*. Gold has rather bad mechanical strength as compared to more >conventional metals, and is expensive; its only real benefit is its >corrosion resistance, and all you need for that is gold plating. Tony Duell wrote: > I would be very suprised if any conenctor pins are 'solid gold' for 2 > good reasons. The first is mechanical, gold is too soft a metal for that > sort of thing. The second is economic, the reason for using gold is to > prevent corroosion, and plating is as good as solid for that, and a lot > cheaper. Somebody wisened up ..the auction has been delisted. Those pins were from an early type of PCB edge connector. They were quite nice in practice, and somewhat novel in that it's a unisex (hermaphroditic?) design: they mate with another pin of the same shape (the mounting area differs, but not the mating area). From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 31 01:52:28 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 02:52:28 -0400 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: <000601c7a30e$61c923f0$c901a8c0@uatempname> References: <000601c7a30e$61c923f0$c901a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: On May 30, 2007, at 7:00 PM, wrote: >> Before I start hacking up cables does anybody recognise this plug. > > Yes. It's rated for 15A rather than 13A (or some such, I forget the > exact numbers). It's worth noting that a VAX 4000-300 (or pretty much any other machine in that chassis) would be a real trick to load up to the point where it draws anywhere near that much current. I've got a 4000-500 here with two hard drives, a tape drive, and a few extra boards that pulls maybe 2.5A. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 31 01:55:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 02:55:15 -0400 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: <200705310001.l4V01eQf026701@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200705310001.l4V01eQf026701@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On May 30, 2007, at 8:01 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > If he is talking about the type connector I think he is, it is > notched to > prevent plugging a normal cord in. This is due to it pulling more > amps than > most computer cords are rated at. I'm not sure if this is the same > thing > you're talking about, but I think you're talking about something > different. > > IIRC, I've seen a couple Compaq or HP servers that use these as well. It's a pretty standard connector. I have an HP C-size VXI chassis that uses that type of connector as well. The next size "up" from that one in the series is the big square one that is used on some SGI machines (Origin 2000, etc) and larger Cisco routers (7513) and Cisco Ethernet switches (Catalyst 5513). It's fortunate that other stuff used them as well, as that makes them a bit easier to find. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spc at conman.org Thu May 31 01:56:36 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 02:56:36 -0400 Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: References: <358120.17689.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070531065636.GD18288@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > Some are extremely inexpensive. My only gripe about > > But as I poitned out, it's not _just_ the cost of the camera. What do you > suggest I connect it to? Can you get digital cameras that connect to > PERQs or PDP11s? Get one? I've got one. Granted, it slowly goes out of focus [1] from time to time, but I have it. Somewhere. And it comes with a DE-9 serial connector, and I found some software [2] that would allow me to download pictures from it. Okay, the resulting pictures [3] are only 640x480, and not great quality, but it's something. I even think it's on topic. Or almost on topic. > > > I;ve yet to see a digital camera service manual, so > > > %deity knows what I > > > do whne it fails. > > > > Toss it if it's cheap enough. Believe you me, I'm > > That is totally against my principles, and always will be. So, you repair burt resistors instead of tossing them? Neat! -spc (And yes, that is a poster of Cerebus [4] on the wall of my office ... ) [1] http://www.conman.org/people/spc/about/1998/focus.html [2] http://photopc.sourceforge.net/ [3] The photos in [1] were taken with the camera in question, but resized for the web. [4] The Aardvark. He doesn't love you, he just wants your gold. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 31 05:45:59 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 05:45:59 -0500 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070530000510.057952a0@mail.30below.com> <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <465EA767.5080804@yahoo.co.uk> Chris Halarewich wrote: > In 1986 the NewTek* Digi-View, built to run on the Amiga platform, > was the first inexpensive video digitizer designed for home > computers. That I can believe... > The Newtek DigiView video digitizer was the first example of a video > digitizing system. ... but that? Surely the big players had such systems back into the '70s? I'm sure I've seen mention of such things built around PDP hardware, graphics terminals, and custom (naturally!) software. Maybe they just mean it was the first example of a commercial home product? > It was > developed to take advantage of the Amiga 1000's advanced video capabilities > and was pluged into the Amiga's parallel printer port. A video cable then > lead from the digitizer to either a B&W video camera with a color wheel > attached We got hold of something like that with an A500 setup a while back, but the colour wheel had to be turned manually rather than being an automatic thing (as I think the digiview is). Can't for the life of me remember who made it now... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 31 05:48:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 05:48:40 -0500 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465EA808.70507@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> But unless you're good, that doesn't tell you the >> values of certain components. Bypass caps are usually > > The time to prodcue the shcmatic is when the equipment is still working, > that is before components fail. Then if you have a capacitor with > undecipheralbe markings, you can measure it. (and if there are readable > markings, they'll not have bene obliterated by the component exploding ;-) Yes, that one's got me at least once in the past. These days I tend to take lots of photos and/or write down component values before trying to power something up for the first time... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 31 06:00:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 06:00:46 -0500 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465EAADE.6030809@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I'm the sort of person who even repairs modern cheap > comsumer electronics... I thought you were the sort of person who didn't buy modern cheap consumer electronics in the first place? :-) > Oh, I don't like smelling defective capacitors (tantalum bead ones are > the worst), but machine oil is certainly pleasant :-) Warm dust is quite nice, too... >> leads. A very easy job. You DO NOT need any test >> equipment. A schematic is necessary, yes, but I know > > Why? All you need to know is the value of the capacitor. Not how it's > actually connected to the other components. > > I would hope that somebody here could look inside their machine and tell > you the markings on the capacitor if the original one is so badly damaged > as to be unreadable. If it was the mains suppression cap then I believe it's a standard X2 class 250V part* in the UK (but then presumably a different part gets used here in the US version) * I think they only sell X2's rated for 275V these days. Farnell and RS do them I belive, but I'm not sure that Maplin do any more. I might haul mine back home tomorrow (it's at Bletchley, but as we now have an A/// there it doesn't need to stay) in which case I can take a look - I need to replace that cap in mine anyway. cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 31 07:55:31 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 07:55:31 -0500 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <023801c7a330$cf61cf80$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <023801c7a330$cf61cf80$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070531075338.06ab2dc0@mail> At 10:07 PM 5/30/2007, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Digiview (:oD). Have schematics avaiable, just in case someone is interested. :o) Schematics to the real Newtek design? In my collection I have an exceedingly rare, perhaps unique, un-potted Digiview card. Normally, they poured epoxy into the plastic case to keep out prying eyes. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 31 07:57:34 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 07:57:34 -0500 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465E3E8D.1070208@gmail.com> References: <899661.87114.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <200705310049.UAA09095@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <465E3E8D.1070208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070531075615.06c75250@mail> Does burning your scrap before you sell it really improve anyone's economics or efficiency? It certainly doesn't help your health or the environment. - John From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu May 31 02:51:09 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 08:51:09 +0100 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F78@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Yup that's it!! I wonder if they do a right angled version? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Boone Sent: 31 May 2007 00:10 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 > Having just increased my collection with a VAX 4000-300 I have hit on a > minor problem. The mains connector into the H7874 PSU is a normal IEC > connector with one exception. Directly below the middle pin is a rib or > ridge that would require a groove or slot in the mating free connector. It's defined by the IEC-320 spec. The C15 type goes on the cord, the C16 is the back panel of the appliance. See e.g.: http://www.bulgin.co.uk/Products/IEC_Connectors/IEC_Inlets-Connectors.ht ml The principal difference between the C15 and the more common C13 appears to be rated operating temperature. De From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu May 31 03:48:08 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:48:08 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Firstly a big thanks (THANKS) to all those who responded to the power plug question. I bought the VAX 4000-300 system on UK Ebay and did the 250 mile trip to Cambridge to collect it early on Saturday. These things are not that big but weigh a ton!! The guy selling it was lot larger than I (thank heavans!) I did not know the suspension in may car went that low! There it sat until Tuesday evening when my son (6'4" & 210pounds) who's a trained weight lifter helped me ge it out of the car and onto its wheels. It need a good clean inside and out but otherwise is undamaged and complete. I extended the notch in the power cable I had and fired it up. First level diagnostics OK Choose a language OK Boot er no but as it seems as the system spent some or all of its life in the insurance industry I'm not surprised the disks have been wiped. Ok so next move. I'm going to try and make a VMS 6.2 bootable tape on the -200 as the -300 has a TK70. The -300 also has a KZQSA (SCSI) controller and whilst they are no good with hard drives I think they work with CD ROM's I also have a stand alone SCSI CD drive (Yamaha CRW4416SX) it has the really small SCSI plugs (inch and a bit long) on the back and the KZQSA has the really big ones. Comments on which is best way to proceed welcomed. Rod Smallwood From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 31 08:41:45 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:41:45 -0300 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture References: <22029.38942.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com><023801c7a330$cf61cf80$f0fea8c0@alpha> <6.2.3.4.2.20070531075338.06ab2dc0@mail> Message-ID: <02f701c7a389$f2192650$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> Digiview (:oD). Have schematics avaiable, just in case someone is >> interested. :o) > Schematics to the real Newtek design? In my collection I have an > exceedingly rare, perhaps unique, un-potted Digiview card. > Normally, they poured epoxy into the plastic case to keep out prying eyes. Yep! Got one of these ages ago, unpotted that and copied the circuit :o) As soon as I find a scanner (and these docs) I'll put that online in www.tabajara-labs.com.br :o) From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 31 10:24:01 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 08:24:01 -0700 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: At 9:48 AM +0100 5/31/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Boot er no but as it seems as the system spent some or all of its life >in the insurance industry I'm not surprised the disks have been wiped. >Ok so next move. I'm going to try and make a VMS 6.2 bootable tape on >the -200 as the -300 has a TK70. Can you run a backup from one disk to another. If you can clone the disk in your -200, then you can stick the new disk in your -300. >The -300 also has a KZQSA (SCSI) controller and whilst they are no good >with hard drives I think they work with CD ROM's >I also have a stand alone SCSI CD drive (Yamaha CRW4416SX) it has the >really small SCSI plugs (inch and a bit long) on the back and the KZQSA >has the really big ones. Cables for such connections used to be quite common, I should think it wouldn't be that hard to find them in the UK. The tricky questions are, does the CD-ROM drive support 512-byte blocks, as I believe that will be a requirement for booting VMS. (Actually is this still a requirement on the latest versions of the OS?) Also, does the board require DEC drives to work? A quick bit of googling doesn't answer the 512-byte question, but turnes up the following manual. http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/computer/pdf/crw4416sx_e.pdf I also see where it was apparently a popular drive for people wanting to hang a CD-RW drive off of a Sun box. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 31 10:52:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:52:05 -0600 Subject: Computer History Museum Article in the LA Times In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 30 May 2007 21:02:24 -0700. <200705310402.l4V42O08019230@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <200705310402.l4V42O08019230 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > > I apologize for the stupid nag login. I add in a bugmenot.com > > login to get to the article. > > Interestingly, it worked for me immediately without a login ... a > pleasant surprise for the LA Times. I couldn't get any of the bugmenot.com addresses to work. I hate places like this. No wonder the LA times is losing subscribers and on its way out of business. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 31 10:53:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:53:15 -0600 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 30 May 2007 18:49:56 -0400. <3629638E-1D52-4A9A-B23C-2639BEE62C5E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <3629638E-1D52-4A9A-B23C-2639BEE62C5E at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > On May 30, 2007, at 3:20 PM, Richard wrote: > > I just purchased a Hazeltine 1400 terminal from ebay. This terminal > > apparently has no lower case, so it seems like quite an oldie. > > Cool! I saw that, and would've chased it if I weren't out of > money at the moment. I sat in front of a 1420, and later a 1500, for > a long time many years ago. It appears to be in good condition too. Do you happen to know what year this would have been manufactured? Is it one of the Hazeltines with core display memory that remembers the last thing that was displayed after you turn it off? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 31 10:57:36 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:57:36 -0600 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 30 May 2007 17:45:44 -0700. <664536.28416.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <664536.28416.qm at web61021.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Manx-Aztec-C-8086-to-C6502-C65c02-cross-compiler-RARE_W0Q QitemZ260121825929QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1251QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > pretty cool i must say... I remember the name Aztec C. Didn't they make a C compiler for the Amiga? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:00:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <1180562668.24008.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <328186.91945.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Well, the value and voltage rating is stamped on > them... Not if the cap is extra toasty. > > You still haven't told us how you work up a > schematic > > either. I'm losing my patience. > > Have a guess. Go on, just have a guess. It's > simple really. uhh, I dunno. You stare at it and gleen what you can from that (problem if you have multiple layer boards). Then use an ohm meter to ferret out the rest? I think I've heard something to the effect that *some* chips could be damaged that way though. But I suppose if you're well acquainted with electonic stuff, you'd know when and where to apply that. Like I said, I dunno. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:11:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <417546.74887.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > How can SRAM (Static Random Access Memory, BTW) be a > 'flash card'? He probably means in the sense of non-volatile ram cards (battery backed up). I have a nv-ram cart for the Mindset. Haven't played with me Mindsets at all...and have more on the way WOOHOO! Anyone out there w/stuff for the Mindset they want to donate/sell/trade? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 31 11:12:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:12:07 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <664536.28416.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/31/07, Richard wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Manx-Aztec-C-8086-to-C6502-C65c02-cross-compiler-RARE_W0Q > QitemZ260121825929QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1251QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > I remember the name Aztec C. Didn't they make a C compiler for the > Amiga? Yep. Their main competition was Lattice/SAS C. I went with Lattice for a variety of reasons, not including cost. IIRC, Aztec C had some library or idiomatic issues (Makefiles?) that made it harder to port code from Unix to AmigaDOS. I do know that when there was in-line assembly, Aztec-compatible source was difficult to port to Lattice C. There was an 5.25" floppy driver that I wanted to build with some minor changes to recognize RX50 disks (10 sectors per track and some minor header variations from MS-DOS floppies), but was unable to get the driver to build with Lattice C before I gave up and moved on to other projects. -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:12:33 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <720505.14779.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, I now ermember I do have a 'digital' > camera on the > to-be-repaired [ole, and I suspect it's getting on > for 20 years old... > > It's a 'Datacopy 300'. Inside there's a linear CCD > (one line of pixels), > probably around 2000 pixels long. It's moved across > the image frame by a > motor and leadscrew, obviously this camera only > works for static > subjects. Inside the body of the unit are half a > dozen PCBs containing > the CCD drive electtronics, motor driver, ADC, > intensity correction (the > output from the ADC is multiplies -- yes an 8*8 full > multiplier chip is > in htere -- with a vulue from an EPROM, one location > for each pixel on > the CCD, to correct for uneven response of the > CCD)., etc LOL LOL sounds more like a hand scanner matey! LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:15:14 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> that's useful stuff Tony. I have to wonder if there is software (an algorithm?) that could take a multi-sheet schematic and produce a big one page schematic out of it. It's probably easy enough if you sit down and take the time, but hell what are computers for??? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:24:19 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <200705310049.UAA09095@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <754266.82753.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- der Mouse wrote: > > I'm not aware of a resistance element that'll go > any higher then > > ~2300 degrees, that being enough to melt brass or > prolly even pure > > copper. > > Tungsten in a sufficiently inert atmosphere will get > white-hot without > problem - that's how incandescent light bulbs work. > > The melting point of tungsten, according to what > information I can > find, is somewhwere around 3400?-3425?, and assorted > resources claim > it's the highest melting point of any metal (and > second-highest > element, after carbon). They don't mention whether > there are alloys > with higher melting points. Right, but I'm not so sure they're commonly available. If you go into one of these places that sell supplies for ceramics and whatnot, they should be able to order you a kanthal wire element probably for $15-20. You can build a table top brass melting furnace with one, but most casters don't like electric. I slopped together a unit a number of years ago, did absolutely no calculations, made the cavity too big (used a 5 gallon can for the body!), and the only brass I was able to *melt* was a 1/8" diameter brass rod. Melted a curve into it was about all. Anyway, if you want to mess with gold salvaging, I suggest gas. If that's even the right way to do it. Couldn't hurt to try if you have a bunch of scrap laying around. I hate gas (am skeered of it, less though then when I was younger), but it's clean, quick, hot, and thereby alleviates a number of the *problems* that go with using a resistance element furnace. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From dbwood at kc.rr.com Thu May 31 11:28:31 2007 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (Douglas Wood) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 11:28:31 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) References: <664536.28416.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <061e01c7a3a0$ba294470$697ba8c0@epicis> > On 5/31/07, Richard wrote: >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Manx-Aztec-C-8086-to-C6502-C65c02-cross-compiler-RARE_W0Q >> QitemZ260121825929QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1251QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >> I remember the name Aztec C. Didn't they make a C compiler for the >> Amiga? > > Yep. Their main competition was Lattice/SAS C. I went with Lattice > for a variety of reasons, not including cost. IIRC, Aztec C had some > library or idiomatic issues (Makefiles?) that made it harder to port > code from Unix to AmigaDOS. I do know that when there was in-line > assembly, Aztec-compatible source was difficult to port to Lattice C. > There was an 5.25" floppy driver that I wanted to build with some > minor changes to recognize RX50 disks (10 sectors per track and some > minor header variations from MS-DOS floppies), but was unable to get > the driver to build with Lattice C before I gave up and moved on to > other projects. > > -ethan I don't know if they ever fixed their compiler for the Amiga, but my Aztec C compiler for MSDOS had scope bugs. When inside a function and confronted with two variables of the same name, the compiler would always pick the variable OUTSIDE the scope of the function!! Stopped using it after I found that bug in favor of Lattice/Microsoft C. Douglas Wood From dundas at caltech.edu Thu May 31 11:34:08 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:34:08 -0700 Subject: Computer History Museum Article in the LA Times In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:52 AM -0600 5/31/07, Richard wrote: >In article <200705310402.l4V42O08019230 at floodgap.com>, > Cameron Kaiser writes: > >> > I apologize for the stupid nag login. I add in a bugmenot.com >> > login to get to the article. >> >> Interestingly, it worked for me immediately without a login ... a >> pleasant surprise for the LA Times. > >I couldn't get any of the bugmenot.com addresses to work. I hate >places like this. I've never had much success with the LA Times site (didn't try bugmenot) and don't appreciate their approach. >No wonder the LA times is losing subscribers and on >its way out of business. Not sure I buy this, though. I don't see them going out of business, though the Chicago Tribune, or whoever it is that owns them currently, is struggling trying to understand the market here. Personally, I *like* taking the dogs out for a walk in the morning, grabbing the paper and having something to read, all day, away from the computer. Guess I'm showing my age (or increasing tiredness of having to go to the 'net for everything; guess what I do for my day job). John From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:38:59 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465E1926.5010702@comcast.net> Message-ID: <989563.82501.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Dan, that's fine advice. But a capacitor is just a capacitor. They blow. No reason someone shouldn't replace one if that'll get their computer back up and running. The Tandy 2000 used a funky p/s that was prone to, I think, one particular cap blowing. What can you do? You could jury rig another p/s in it's place. But when mine went (in 1989) I looked at the schematic, and went to Radio Shack, then went to work. And I had my computer back. I guess p/s problems could be some of the WORST problems to a computer. You could fry a number of chips (but this is uncommon). You could always effect the repair, then run it under load for a few days or a week and see how it's doing. Not everyone keeps or even knows how to use test equipment, so sometimes you just have to go with what you know. There's not too many people these days that can or will work on this stuff, so what can you do but your best. --- Dan wrote: > > One thing I always remember on power supplies is to > not take anything > for granted when it blows out-- regarding the > components health. It's > good to have a set of test equipment to check the > basics, > Transistor/Mosfet Checker, ESR tester, Milliohm > meter, Zener tester > besides just a DMM (a curve tracer is good to have > on the bench). > Whenever I'm inside a power supply, I think it's > important to take your > time and check it from head to toe--parts aren't > free-- and more parts > can blow out if you only replace the first part > that's bad. > > =Dan > > [ My Corner of Cyberspace > http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> >>....Repairing a switching power supply is one > the last > >> >>things I would want to do. > >> > > >> > Why? > >> > >> Personally I've never had any luck repairing > switch mode PSUs > >> either....obviously there's some hole in my > understanding of them.... > >> > > > > In which case you need practice in repairing them > ;-) > > > > More seriously, there are easy faults with SMPSUs > and difficult faults. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:41:58 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: <20070531004442.GA5055@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <877279.1318.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Tony, why don't you just build yourself a USB host > controller that you > can interface to your PERQ or PDP11's? It shouldn't > be all that hard to > do, you could even use some common, modern > (inexpensive) microcontroller > to do this, I bet, like a PIC. > > The protocols are all documented, either by > available open source > software, or "real" documentation. There's the > issue of not having > schematics for the camera, I guess, but I'm sure you > can find people > here that would be willing to send you for free... > and when that one > breaks, another for free. Not a bad suggestion, but he probably won't want to work up the software (just my guess). All you need is one of those pcmcia adapters for a desktop pc (does he have one of those?), although they're kind of slow. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:44:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <6d6501090705301754x6783e3efg2d8f6a9fdc2039ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <757326.89736.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris Halarewich wrote: > do u mean this from 1986 > http://www.digicamhistory.com/1986.html > *NEWTEK Digi-View - 1986. I don't know what it was called. That's probably it though. And it did use a color wheel. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:47:17 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: who invented IDE? In-Reply-To: <186960.37074.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <789646.45241.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- Chris M wrote: > > > I think I've even asked this question before, but > > got > > no response. Or at least no suitable ones. Hosers. > > Though I was recently told that the first IDE card > > appeared in a Compaq Deskpro. Can anyone confirm > or > > deny? > > Well, if you want to get technical (and I do)... IDE > is nearly an extention of the ISA bus. Some of the > earliest and/or cheapest IDE controllers were mostly > buffers to connect the drive to the ISA bus. IDE > stands for Integrated Drive Electronics. So, kinda > like an MFM controller and drive bolted together, > with > a 40 pin connector leading back to the ISA bus. > > Now, obviously this is over-simplifying the whole > thing, but it's not _too_ far off. > > And yeah, I think the earliest machine I ever saw > with > an IDE drive was a Compaq Deskpro 286. There was a > flavor of IDE for XT class machnes too - the drives > aren't really compatible with AT class IDE, however. Ok, so who's going to give me one of these controllers? Or who can furnish a schematic? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:50:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705301907j4c3f7b07m861921ba615c9632@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <418760.54554.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Yo I still have mine! It was awful! I have a few pictures that are nevertheless somewhat endearing (like one of my niece when she was a first starting to walk. Awwwww). There may have been different devices by the ComputerEyes people, but I think they had at least 1 ISA board IIRC. --- Jason T wrote: > In a similar vein, I dug this up from my basement > for a pic: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/522496721/in/set-72157600033400926/ > > Not a digital camera, but a digitizer box like the > ComputerEyes or > Digi-View, but for the Mac+. I'll have to dig out > an old Mac and give > it a try sometime. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 31 11:50:25 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 11:50:25 -0500 Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) References: <720505.14779.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006e01c7a3a3$c9b3a9a0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Comment as list administrator ------------------------------- Re: below post As a common courtesy, please at least make some attempt to appropriately trim replies.... ------------------------------- Comment as just another listmember ------------------------------------ I wonder if the list software supports stripping the characters LOL from all list posts. ------------------------------------ Jay (vying for the "grumpy old...." title) West > --- Tony Duell wrote: > >> Actually, I now ermember I do have a 'digital' >> camera on the >> to-be-repaired [ole, and I suspect it's getting on >> for 20 years old... >> >> It's a 'Datacopy 300'. Inside there's a linear CCD >> (one line of pixels), >> probably around 2000 pixels long. It's moved across >> the image frame by a >> motor and leadscrew, obviously this camera only >> works for static >> subjects. Inside the body of the unit are half a >> dozen PCBs containing >> the CCD drive electtronics, motor driver, ADC, >> intensity correction (the >> output from the ADC is multiplies -- yes an 8*8 full >> multiplier chip is >> in htere -- with a vulue from an EPROM, one location >> for each pixel on >> the CCD, to correct for uneven response of the >> CCD)., etc > > LOL LOL sounds more like a hand scanner matey! LOL > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss an email again! > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:53:25 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: who invented IDE? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070530211328.06a29080@mail> Message-ID: <755155.96466.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Foust wrote: > At 09:00 PM 5/30/2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >And yeah, I think the earliest machine I ever saw > with > >an IDE drive was a Compaq Deskpro 286. There was a > >flavor of IDE for XT class machnes too - the drives > >aren't really compatible with AT class IDE, > however. > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Technology_Attachment > > http://www.ata-atapi.com/hist.htm Thanks, don't have time to read it over at the moment though. Can we say then that Compaq's IDE controller was the earliest *IDE* card that could drive a modern (or somewhat modern) IDE device? CD/DVD drives, hard drives, etc.? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 31 11:53:37 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:53:37 -0400 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200705311253.38037.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 31 May 2007 04:48, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Boot er no but as it seems as the system spent some or all of its > life in the insurance industry I'm not surprised the disks have been > wiped. Ok so next move. I'm going to try and make a VMS 6.2 bootable > tape on the -200 as the -300 has a TK70. If you've got one running VAX, the easiest thing to do would probably be to MOP boot the /300 off of the /200. From there, you should be able to "restore" a backup of the /200's OS disk onto the /300. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 11:59:36 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: digital camera capabilities / was Re: 1000+ old computer in In-Reply-To: <003e01c7a330$e945ec60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <384976.37836.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > But as I poitned out, it's not _just_ the cost > of the camera. > >What do you suggest I connect it to? Can you get > digital cameras > >that connect to PERQs or PDP11s? > > Actually, my first two cameras both connected to the > host computer via RS232 > (just data lines and ground) so in theory.... ;-) > > > Newer cameras tend to have USB, but I've never used > mine this way as I > always remove the memory card and plug it into a > card reader anyway. > > I've not seen any about recently, but before > multi-format USB card readers > became popular I remember there being numerous > RS232, single format card > readers on the market - I'm pretty sure Jessops used > to sell them. > > Might be a solution. Maybe I delusional, but did I see a USB to RS232 converter somewhere in my travels? That is the opposite of a RS232 to USB converter (will allow older serial devices to utilize a USB port). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu May 31 12:04:19 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer History Museum Article in the LA Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <129419.16086.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is this the article? http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-semi29may29,0,5085271.story?coll=la-tot-business Only thing I could find on their site about computer history. Bob From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 31 11:58:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 11:58:04 -0500 Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465EFE9C.9060508@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > that's useful stuff Tony. I have to wonder if there is > software (an algorithm?) that could take a multi-sheet > schematic and produce a big one page schematic out of > it. It's probably easy enough if you sit down and take > the time, but hell what are computers for??? Well I suppose it exists already in the form of photo-stitch software (assuming hand-drawn schematics, otherwise copy/paste in your favourite art package [1] will do the job nicely). Beyond a certain level of complexity though it makes sense to separate schematics onto multiple pages according to circuit function anyway, otherwise printing the thing would require either such an enormous sheet of paper as to be unmanageable, or such a tiny level of detail as to be unreadable. Same goes for viewing on screen. (I was looking at schematics for Acorn's Risc PC the other day for someone; if put onto one sheet of paper it'd be around 5ft x 7ft in size - and as a lot of the functionality is provided by custom chips, schematic-wise it's not even *that* complex compared to a lot of systems) [1] I believe some of the Imagemagick utilities will let you do this programatically from a shell script, but I've never needed to try. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu May 31 12:11:56 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <625635.83234.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > It appears to be in good condition too. Do you > happen to know what > year this would have been manufactured? Is it one > of the Hazeltines > with core display memory that remembers the last > thing that was > displayed after you turn it off? Hmm, I don't know. I have a 1421 - it looks VERY similar, although the front is black instead of grey, and it has a numeric keypad and does upper/lower case. The 1421 uses solid state memory. BTW, the 1420 manual is on vt100.net -Ian From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 31 12:02:54 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:02:54 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070531120204.06b94670@mail> At 10:57 AM 5/31/2007, you wrote: >I remember the name Aztec C. Didn't they make a C compiler for the Amiga? As well as several other platforms. I believe their first sets of compilers were PDP-11 hosted, at least for development if not for sale. I think they had Apple, MS-DOS, Mac and Atari, too. At 11:28 AM 5/31/2007, Douglas Wood wrote: >I don't know if they ever fixed their compiler for the Amiga, but my Aztec C compiler for MSDOS had scope bugs. When inside a function and confronted with two variables of the same name, the compiler would always pick the variable OUTSIDE the scope of the function!! Stopped using it after I found that bug in favor of Lattice/Microsoft C. Gee, those programmers never want to blame their code for confusion, do they? :-) - John From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 12:15:19 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <696924.96061.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > You don't want to melt the other metals first, most > metals will dissolve the gold and just make it > harder to > refine. The best method is with acid. Muradic acid > should work ok to remove the other metals. > Gold melts quite hot. I don't recall any heater wire > that wouldn't melt first. In an inert gas, as was > mentioned > by another, tungsten could be used. Other methods > include things like carbon arc or oxi-acetylene. > Dwight Yes I forgot about that. You use a small oxi-cet setup like the type jewelery makers use. Very handy for small castings and such, but I hate tanks of gas anywhere near me. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 12:19:18 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465E5069.6010504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <456413.31291.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Well you have the Copper Age, Bronze Age then the > Iron age. > Gold was way back there in the copper age. Good point. I do remember a story about a golden calf being made out in the desert somewhere... But not even sure if they melted the gold (although it was probably possible). But rather heated to a point where it could be beaten into shape. ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 12:24:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465DFF16.21149.48CF3670@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> OI let's not forget Thermite! You combine rust and powdered aluminum, ignite it (with a *storm match*, whatever that is), and it produces 6000 degrees F. Useful for welding train rails together, and rudders on battle ships. I saw an episode of "Beyond 2000" where some scientists were experimenting w/something similar to *hopefully* produce rocket propulsion. --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > See: > > http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/AtomicH/AHW.html > > But for most anything else, oxy-acetylene is fine. > > A few years ago, I remember seeing a welding rig for > jewelers that > used electrolysis on water to create fuel and > oxygen. The thing drew > something like 10 amps at 240VAC and produced a very > tiny flame. > There was so little heat produced (although the > flame temperature was > pretty high) that you could pass your hand through > the flame. > > IIRC, gold is usually deplated from other metals > (and out of ore) > with sodium or potassium cyanide. At least that's > what I recall from > reading about a "heap leach" gold mining operation. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 12:29:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465EAADE.6030809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <655790.21940.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > I might haul mine back home tomorrow (it's at > Bletchley, but as we now have an > A/// there it doesn't need to stay) in which case I > can take a look - I need > to replace that cap in mine anyway. That little bugger is wreaking havoc all over the globe, isn't it... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 12:33:02 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <898917.41419.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Ethan, Any thoughts/comments on Amix (Sys 4 port for the Amiga 3000 (-only?). I'm presuming you've used it here. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 31 12:34:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070531103400.C32124@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 31 May 2007, Chris M wrote: > that's useful stuff Tony. I have to wonder if there is > software (an algorithm?) that could take a multi-sheet > schematic and produce a big one page schematic out of > it. It's probably easy enough if you sit down and take > the time, but hell what are computers for??? some of the "hand scanners" had software to "stitch" multiple passes together From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 31 12:38:23 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 14:38:23 -0300 Subject: WDXT-150 utilities? References: <465E5490.8050006@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <034801c7a3aa$8317eea0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I have a WDXT-150 board with a WD93024 drive. I suspect that the drive > is dead, as it doesn't do anything, including spinning up, but I'd like to > be able to run diags on it if any exist. If I'm not mistaken, this is a XT drive. Have you tried entering DEBUG and using G=C800:5 ? From bpope at wordstock.com Thu May 31 12:38:28 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 13:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070531173828.3966E58974@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Richard > > > In article <664536.28416.qm at web61021.mail.yahoo.com>, > Chris M writes: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Manx-Aztec-C-8086-to-C6502-C65c02-cross-compiler-RARE_W0Q > QitemZ260121825929QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1251QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > pretty cool i must say... > > I remember the name Aztec C. Didn't they make a C compiler for the > Amiga? Yes.. Also, Lattice C was another C compilier for the Amiga. Cheers, Bryan From arcarlini at iee.org Thu May 31 12:50:35 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 18:50:35 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <000501c7a3ac$3210c250$c901a8c0@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Firstly a big thanks (THANKS) to all those who responded to the power > plug question. > I bought the VAX 4000-300 system on UK Ebay and did the 250 mile trip > to Cambridge to collect it early on Saturday. These things are not > that big but weigh a ton!! The guy selling it was lot larger than I > (thank heavans!) I did not know the suspension in may car went that > low! Wait till you move a DECarray 900 full of RZ drives and a couple of TZ877s :-) > The -300 also has a KZQSA (SCSI) controller and whilst they are no > good with hard drives I think they work with CD ROM's I also have a > stand alone SCSI CD drive (Yamaha CRW4416SX) it has the really small > SCSI plugs (inch and a bit long) on the back and the KZQSA has the > really big ones. There are cables that go from the Amphenol 50-way (on the KZQSA) to whatever might be on the Yamaha. There are also various adapters that might help. > Comments on which is best way to proceed welcomed. Here's the abridged version: Given that you have another VAX, the easiest way is to configure the existing VAX as a cluster, configure the existing VAX to accept the VAX 4000-300 as a satellite and then boot it as a satellite. Now initialise the disks on the VAX 4000-300, if required. Restore the .B saveset onto whichever VAX 4000-300 disk you want to use as your system disk. Copy across all the installation savesets (VMS062.* and DECW062.*) onto that disks [000000] directory. Shutdown the VAX 4000-300 and reboot from the new system disk. Answer the questions. Enjoy your new VMS system. Antonio From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 12:59:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: o man old was: vintage camera thingees or something In-Reply-To: <384976.37836.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <215787.92609.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Solid-State-Image-Sensor-Reticon-Assmbly-RC301_W0QQitemZ150126131198QQihZ005QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem aren't you all so glad I'm working overtime to find all the rare good stuff! Somebody ought to buy that thing then send it to me as a reward. Hmmph. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 31 13:04:45 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:04:45 -0600 Subject: Computer History Museum Article in the LA Times In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465F0E3D.2090603@jetnet.ab.ca> John A. Dundas III wrote: > Not sure I buy this, though. I don't see them going out of business, > though the Chicago Tribune, or whoever it is that owns them currently, > is struggling trying to understand the market here. > Personally, I *like* taking the dogs out for a walk in the morning, > grabbing the paper and having something to read, all day, away from the > computer. Guess I'm showing my age (or increasing tiredness of having > to go to the 'net for everything; guess what I do for my day job). No more than my age. I turned on the AM (mono) radio today expecting music. Just talk or bad country or just advertisements on how you can hear them online. :( > John PS. Anybody expecting me to listen to FM, be sure and send a free valve tuner. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 13:11:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 11:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: early IDE card on eBay Message-ID: <162257.38800.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/IDE-Controller-for-Hard-Drive-KS-4-16-Bit-ISA-1989_W0QQitemZ250119693356QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Anyone have one of these they'd like to sell? I ain't paying $50 though. Funny "Joe" seems to think generic Taiwanese stuff should command that kind of value. And he has a lot of it up for bidding, all priced in a similar outrageous fashion. ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 13:22:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Burroughs ICON Message-ID: <129599.22422.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Anyone have one? They were popular in Canada (maybe made there??). I want it. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 31 13:24:34 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 11:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Manx-Aztec-C-8086-to-C6502-C65c02-cross-compiler-RARE_W0Q > QitemZ260121825929QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1251QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > pretty cool i must say... On Thu, 31 May 2007, Richard wrote: > I remember the name Aztec C. Didn't they make a C compiler for the > Amiga? Yes The major advantage of Aztec (Manx) C was to be able to run essentially the same compiler on multiple microcomputer platforms. That was especially useful, since before "ANSI C", there were lots of "minor" variations from one K&R C to another. For example, does puts() send a newline? Is a char signed or unsigned? What do you get when you >> (right shift) a 2's complement negative number? I AM NOT asking what "should be", I'm talking about comparing what compiler authors thought. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 13:30:40 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange *pc* Message-ID: <451995.29870.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-PC-Systel-Sytem-with-sensors-for-light-sound-temp_W0QQitemZ290122810143QQihZ019QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 31 13:33:42 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 11:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465EFE9C.9060508@yahoo.co.uk> References: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <465EFE9C.9060508@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070531113151.U32124@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 31 May 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Beyond a certain level of complexity though it makes sense to separate > schematics onto multiple pages according to circuit function anyway, otherwise > printing the thing would require either such an enormous sheet of paper as to > be unmanageable, or such a tiny level of detail as to be unreadable. Same goes > for viewing on screen. > (I was looking at schematics for Acorn's Risc PC the other day for someone; if > put onto one sheet of paper it'd be around 5ft x 7ft in size - and as a lot > of the functionality is provided by custom chips, schematic-wise it's not even > *that* complex compared to a lot of systems) Dave Thompson (Microcornucopia magazine) took the XT schematics and combined them into a 24" x 36" ? poster. It was quite handy From dbwood at kc.rr.com Thu May 31 13:33:32 2007 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (Douglas Wood) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 13:33:32 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) References: <"Your message of Wed, 30 May 2007 17:45:44 -0700. <664536.28416.qm"@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070531120204.06b94670@mail> Message-ID: <074801c7a3b2$318192f0$697ba8c0@epicis> >>I don't know if they ever fixed their compiler for the Amiga, but my Aztec >>C compiler for MSDOS had scope bugs. When inside a function and confronted >>with two variables of the same name, the compiler would always pick the >>variable OUTSIDE the scope of the function!! Stopped using it after I >>found that bug in favor of Lattice/Microsoft C. > > Gee, those programmers never want to blame their code for confusion, > do they? :-) > > - John Believe me!! I WISH that my Aztec C woes had been caused by something I did!! It would have made finding this bug a lot easier, and saved a LOT of development time. (Well, OK, it was partially my fault for using two variables with the same name but with different scopes, I suppose.) After switching to Microsoft's C (v5.1, IIRC) the same code base hit their huge pointer bug!! Can't win for losing. :^) Douglas Wood From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 13:34:19 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 11:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070531120204.06b94670@mail> Message-ID: <962226.43795.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Foust wrote: > At 11:28 AM 5/31/2007, Douglas Wood wrote: > >I don't know if they ever fixed their compiler for > the Amiga, but my Aztec C compiler for MSDOS had > scope bugs. When inside a function and confronted > with two variables of the same name, the compiler > would always pick the variable OUTSIDE the scope of > the function!! Stopped using it after I found that > bug in favor of Lattice/Microsoft C. > > Gee, those programmers never want to blame their > code for confusion, > do they? :-) John, commitees are setup to help stoopit koderz with their stoopit kode. That compiler was obviously pre-ANSI or something. It didn't allow for a stoopit koder LOL LOL ___________________________________________________________________________________ You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 31 13:53:45 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:53:45 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > OI let's not forget Thermite! You combine rust and > powdered aluminum, ignite it (with a *storm match*, > whatever that is), and it produces 6000 degrees F. > Useful for welding train rails together, and rudders > on battle ships. A similar compound they believe was in the paint of the Hindenburg. > I saw an episode of "Beyond 2000" where some > scientists were experimenting w/something similar to > *hopefully* produce rocket propulsion. I remember something with a title like that in the late 1960's. They have not done *much* with rockets since then. Hopefully the X-prize may spin something off. Just don't count on NASA -- they spend $$$ on everything but rocket development. Now lets call it a day, get back to classic rockets ... err computers. Woodelf ------------------- cut here for email --------------------- bfranchuk AT jetnet DOT jetnet DOT ca From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 31 14:23:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:23:49 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <456413.31291.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <465E5069.6010504@jetnet.ab.ca>, <456413.31291.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465EBE55.13754.F5CEC5@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2007 at 10:19, Chris M wrote: > Good point. I do remember a story about a golden calf > being made out in the desert somewhere... > But not even sure if they melted the gold (although > it was probably possible). But rather heated to a > point where it could be beaten into shape. You can melt gold easily with nothing more than a cow and a tree (Charcoal and bellows). Gold melts at 1064C, lower than the melting point of copper (1085C). Iron, by contrast, melts at 1535C. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 31 14:26:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 13:26:08 -0600 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 31 May 2007 10:11:56 -0700. <625635.83234.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <625635.83234.qm at web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > BTW, the 1420 manual is on vt100.net That manual has a date of 1979, revised 1981, so I'm guessing that the 1400 dates from the same time period. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 31 14:44:52 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:44:52 -0300 Subject: Computer History Museum Article in the LA Times References: <465F0E3D.2090603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <03c901c7a3bc$dbe474b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> Personally, I *like* taking the dogs out for a walk in the morning, >> grabbing the paper and having something to read, all day, away from the >> computer. Guess I'm showing my age (or increasing tiredness of having to >> go to the 'net for everything; guess what I do for my day job). This is something I've been told yesterday (without coming to spiritual or religious subjects here). People need more contact, more energy exchange. People need more hugs and sights, and less digital networking and 'net. I've been locked at this room for some time, I need to get out here a bit more ;o) From pechter at gmail.com Thu May 31 14:50:17 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:50:17 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070531173828.3966E58974@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070531173828.3966E58974@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 5/31/07, Bryan Pope wrote: > > And thusly were the wise words spake by Richard > > > > > > In article <664536.28416.qm at web61021.mail.yahoo.com>, > > Chris M writes: > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Manx-Aztec-C-8086-to-C6502-C65c02-cross-compiler-RARE_W0Q > > QitemZ260121825929QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1251QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > > > pretty cool i must say... > > > > I remember the name Aztec C. Didn't they make a C compiler for the > > Amiga? > > Yes.. Also, Lattice C was another C compilier for the Amiga. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > The Manx (Aztec C) folks were local in Shrewsbury or Eatontown, NJ.. My wife actually worked there for a while... Bill Bill -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From pechter at gmail.com Thu May 31 14:52:24 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:52:24 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <898917.41419.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <898917.41419.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/31/07, Chris M wrote: > > Ethan, > Any thoughts/comments on Amix (Sys 4 port for the > Amiga 3000 (-only?). I'm presuming you've used it here. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, > news, photos & more. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC > A friend of mine who worked at Fort Monmouth and USL worked on the port -- IIRC. I think Virginia Tech was a customer. Too bad the port never got the marketing it deserved. SVR4 with the Amiga graphics could've been a slick video editing system. Bill -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From bpope at wordstock.com Thu May 31 14:52:37 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Burroughs ICON In-Reply-To: <129599.22422.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070531195237.9774E58A92@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Chris M > > Anyone have one? They were popular in Canada (maybe > made there??). I want it. > Ontario to be exact, where I used them in high school. Their OS was QNX, another Canadian company. :) I have yet to see in available, though.. :( Cheers, Bryan From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 31 15:00:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 13:00:10 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <465EC6DA.2796.1171487@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2007 at 11:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > ...What do you get when you >> > (right shift) a 2's complement negative number? " a 2's complement negative numbe" :-) Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 31 15:03:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:03:16 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 5/31/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > The major advantage of Aztec (Manx) C was to be able to run essentially > the same compiler on multiple microcomputer platforms. That was > especially useful, since before "ANSI C", there were lots of "minor" > variations from one K&R C to another.... I AM NOT asking what > "should be", I'm talking about comparing what compiler authors thought. One that varies from platform to platform: What does "char *p = NULL; return(strlen(p));" do? On some machines, it returns 0. On others, it segfaults because you asked it to dereference a null pointer. Both are "correct" behavior because the official behavior is "undefined". Ran into that one when someone tried to port some code from an NCR box to a Sun box (yes, 10 years ago ;-) It worked "fine" on the NCR box, but when it "broke" on the Sun, some of the NCR guys tried to claim it was proof that NCRs were better than Suns (what, because it won't let you slide by when you depend on undefined behavior behaving in a particular way?) These were sysadmins, not coders, so it was difficult to explain to them what was really going on. I'm not sure all of them got it. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 31 15:13:14 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:13:14 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070531150431.069a4748@mail> At 01:24 PM 5/31/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >The major advantage of Aztec (Manx) C was to be able to run essentially >the same compiler on multiple microcomputer platforms. That was >especially useful, since before "ANSI C", there were lots of "minor" >variations from one K&R C to another. For example, does puts() send a >newline? Did you mean whether it emits only a linefeed, or whether it emits CR and LF? I believe I stuck with Manx throughout my entire era of Amiga development. I liked it because it was more Unix-like. I was supposed to have an article in one of first issues of Amigaworld, reviewing the Lattice C compiler. Because it wasn't positive enough, though, and a major advertiser (not a compiler developer, though) somehow saw the article and complained that it might not attract developers to the platform, it was canned and not published. Development on a floppy-based Amiga was incredibly painful. - John From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 31 15:17:54 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 17:17:54 -0300 Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply References: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com><465EFE9C.9060508@yahoo.co.uk> <20070531113151.U32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <03df01c7a3c1$5cc94b60$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Dave Thompson (Microcornucopia magazine) took the XT schematics and > combined them into a 24" x 36" ? poster. It was quite handy Is this avaiable somewhere? ;o) From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 31 15:23:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:23:14 -0500 Subject: early IDE card on eBay In-Reply-To: <162257.38800.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <162257.38800.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465F2EB2.4050200@oldskool.org> This is a 16-bit one, which are as common as dirt. Just search for "ISA IDE" and you'll probably find one for $10 or less in about a week. The 8-bit ones, like the Silicon Valley Computer ADP-50, are quite *uncommon*. It's usually more common to find an 8-bit SCSI card, although in 2007 both are equally hard to find... Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/IDE-Controller-for-Hard-Drive-KS-4-16-Bit-ISA-1989_W0QQitemZ250119693356QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > Anyone have one of these they'd like to sell? I ain't > paying $50 though. Funny "Joe" seems to think generic > Taiwanese stuff should command that kind of value. And > he has a lot of it up for bidding, all priced in a > similar outrageous fashion. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu May 31 15:27:05 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:27:05 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200705312027.l4VKRC26031924@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:24:34 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: ... I AM NOT asking what "should be", I'm talking about comparing what compiler authors thought. That reminds me of Metaware High-C came bundled with the FarCrap DOS extender Autodesk forced us to use back then. When we opened the box, it contained some BornAgain propoganda along with a nice letter stateing that through the power of our lord ...... we are able to provide ...... from Metaware, well you get the idea. Upon installing it and feeding it some known working MickeySoft C source, I let loose with a string of curses at the string of cryptic error messages that seemed to move never ending up my screen. My partner in crime on the project came into my cave, about that point, and asked if I had Jesus C working yet. I about lost it, I later found out I was not alone, several of the other deveolpers got their updates on teh same day. Before our version of the story got around, I soon found other developers refered to the Metaware/Farlap combination Autodesk built their developer platform around as Jesus "C" often with more colorfull stories of their own. Oh to have lived in interesting times .... Later The other Bob From grant at stockly.com Thu May 31 15:39:59 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:39:59 -0800 Subject: DRAM camera sensor In-Reply-To: <465CDE86.2010903@sbcglobal.net> References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> At 06:16 PM 5/29/2007, you wrote: >Micron Technology sold the chips, DRAM's with windows. It was called the >OpticRAM. >I believe the part number was IS32. >I have a few somewhere along with the data sheet but fat chance of finding >them. > >Bob I remember a document from the 80s that described how to take a DRAM chip, decap it, and use it as a crude camera. I think I remember something about a lens too. It might have been a joke... This would have to be a ceramic type DRAM chip to be decapped by an individual (easily). Does anyone know what I'm talking about or have the document? I thought it sounded fun. : ) Grant From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 31 15:43:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 13:43:52 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <465ED118.2841.13F18CA@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2007 at 12:53, woodelf wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > OI let's not forget Thermite! You combine rust and > > powdered aluminum, ignite it (with a *storm match*, > > whatever that is), and it produces 6000 degrees F. Funny, I always lit my thermite with a magnesium ribbon (burns at about 2200C/4000F). Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 31 15:53:48 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:53:48 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <20070531173828.3966E58974@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070531155319.07122220@mail> At 02:50 PM 5/31/2007, Bill Pechter wrote: >The Manx (Aztec C) folks were local in Shrewsbury or Eatontown, NJ.. My >wife actually worked there for a while... Eatontown. And what was her name? - John From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu May 31 10:52:26 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:52:26 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I'm not sure about the back up but the -200 has a TK70 as does the -300. So if I can prepare a bootable tape I should be able to boot the -300 from it and maybe even get a system onto it. As to attaching one of the drives from the -300 to the -200. I'll investigate the types. However both systems are DSSI bus so to a first approximation they should be OK. Sorry I'm a bit slow, its not that my memory of stuff I knew 25years ago has gone its just the access time has increased!!! Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 31 May 2007 16:24 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. At 9:48 AM +0100 5/31/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Boot er no but as it seems as the system spent some or all of its life >in the insurance industry I'm not surprised the disks have been wiped. >Ok so next move. I'm going to try and make a VMS 6.2 bootable tape on >the -200 as the -300 has a TK70. Can you run a backup from one disk to another. If you can clone the disk in your -200, then you can stick the new disk in your -300. >The -300 also has a KZQSA (SCSI) controller and whilst they are no good >with hard drives I think they work with CD ROM's I also have a stand >alone SCSI CD drive (Yamaha CRW4416SX) it has the really small SCSI >plugs (inch and a bit long) on the back and the KZQSA has the really >big ones. Cables for such connections used to be quite common, I should think it wouldn't be that hard to find them in the UK. The tricky questions are, does the CD-ROM drive support 512-byte blocks, as I believe that will be a requirement for booting VMS. (Actually is this still a requirement on the latest versions of the OS?) Also, does the board require DEC drives to work? A quick bit of googling doesn't answer the 512-byte question, but turnes up the following manual. http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/computer/pdf/crw4416sx_e.pdf I also see where it was apparently a popular drive for people wanting to hang a CD-RW drive off of a Sun box. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From arcarlini at iee.org Thu May 31 16:11:21 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:11:21 +0100 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F75@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <000201c7a3c8$3e545790$c901a8c0@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > So whilst what I have will probably run, its not the correct cable. > It should be a right angled IEC type with a groove or slot opposite > the middle pin. The right angle is needed only if you want to shut the front door. If you don't have a right angle one, you either leave the door open or remove it (it comes off very easily ... it becomes lost very easily too :-)) Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 31 16:12:13 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 17:12:13 -0400 Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20070531113151.U32124@shell.lmi.net> References: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <465EFE9C.9060508@yahoo.co.uk> <20070531113151.U32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <465F3A2D.5090703@neurotica.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 31 May 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Beyond a certain level of complexity though it makes sense to separate >> schematics onto multiple pages according to circuit function anyway, otherwise >> printing the thing would require either such an enormous sheet of paper as to >> be unmanageable, or such a tiny level of detail as to be unreadable. Same goes >> for viewing on screen. >> (I was looking at schematics for Acorn's Risc PC the other day for someone; if >> put onto one sheet of paper it'd be around 5ft x 7ft in size - and as a lot >> of the functionality is provided by custom chips, schematic-wise it's not even >> *that* complex compared to a lot of systems) > > Dave Thompson (Microcornucopia magazine) took the XT schematics and > combined them into a 24" x 36" ? poster. It was quite handy Is that available digitally somewhere? -Dave From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 31 16:15:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:15:08 -0600 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 31 May 2007 11:34:19 -0700. <962226.43795.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <962226.43795.qm at web61013.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: >[...] That compiler was obviously > pre-ANSI or something. K&R C allows hiding a variable at an outer scope by declaring a variable of the same name at an inner scope. Its still not a good idea, but perfectly legal in C. Hell, your average line noise puke is legal in C; or was it TECO? ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 31 16:16:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:16:05 -0600 Subject: Computer History Museum Article in the LA Times In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 31 May 2007 16:44:52 -0300. <03c901c7a3bc$dbe474b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: In article <03c901c7a3bc$dbe474b0$f0fea8c0 at alpha>, "Alexandre Souza" writes: > This is something I've been told yesterday (without coming to spiritual > or religious subjects here). People need more contact, more energy exchange. > People need more hugs and sights, and less digital networking and 'net. I've > been locked at this room for some time, I need to get out here a bit more > ;o) That's what bars & beers are for, IMO. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 31 16:53:05 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:53:05 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200705312027.l4VKRC26031924@keith.ezwind.net> References: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> <200705312027.l4VKRC26031924@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070531164905.07052118@mail> At 03:27 PM 5/31/2007, Bob Bradlee wrote: >That reminds me of Metaware High-C came bundled with the FarCrap DOS extender Autodesk >forced us to use back then. When we opened the box, it contained some BornAgain propoganda along with a nice letter stateing that through the power of our lord Yes, I remember that one, too, trying to write plug-ins for the early versions of 3D Studio. It was pricey as I recall, too. There's nothing like multi-platform code to keep you on your toes and to keep your code clean as a whistle. By 1997, my app suite was about 400K lines, compiling under a bunch of platforms and processors: Windows x86/AXP/PPC, Pharlap, Amiga, Mac, SGI, Linux... - John From rickb at bensene.com Thu May 31 16:56:37 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 14:56:37 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <465F2EB2.4050200@oldskool.org> Message-ID: I have an old glass TTY-type terminal made by a company called TEC. It consists of two parts. The first part contains the main logic, all on a board mounted in the back of the chassis), the video electronics, power supply, and high-voltage power supply, along with monitor. The second part is a rather clunky keyboard that attaches to the first part with a connector cable. The cabinets are painted almost an IBM-style blue. I don't know the model number off the top of my head, but was wondering if anyone out there knows anything about the history of these terminals. The thing gives off vibes of being from the mid to late 1970's. The logic IIRC is mostly TTL. Don't know what it uses for memory, but whatever it is, it's got to be solid state, either shift registers, or RAM. The thing powers up, and shows a display with some "large" and "small" characters (it appears to have two different font sizes), and a blinking cursor which appears in multiple places on the screen, but doesn't respond to any keyboard input. It has a DB-25 RS-232 connector apparently for hooking up to a computer, but I don't know if it's wired as DTE or DCE. There are also a bunch of dip switches on the logic circuit board, which I assume are for setting up things like baud rate, stop bits, number of bits, Duplex, along with other options. There is also another DB-25 connector on the back that appears as if it might be a "pass through" for connecting a serial printer or something like that. The terminal is packed away right now, but some of the recent talk about the old Hazeltine terminals made me think of it. If there's interest, I can dig it out and take some photos and put them up on a website for viewing if that might help. Of course, once I dig it out, I can probably ID the model number, then do a web search to see if I can find anything out there, but figured I'd ask here first to see if anyone has any information on the company or their terminals. Thanks in advance. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 31 17:03:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 18:03:27 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200705312027.l4VKRC26031924@keith.ezwind.net> References: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> <200705312027.l4VKRC26031924@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 5/31/07, Bob Bradlee wrote: > My partner in crime... asked if I had Jesus C working yet.... I am soooo lucky I wasn't in the middle of a Coke. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 31 17:04:42 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:04:42 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? Message-ID: <465F467A.9090501@bitsavers.org> > The cabinets are painted almost an IBM-style blue. Interdata blue, most likely. They are shift register memory dumb terminals. The most common place I saw them was with Interdata systems. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 31 16:57:57 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:57:57 -0500 Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20070531113151.U32124@shell.lmi.net> References: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <465EFE9C.9060508@yahoo.co.uk> <20070531113151.U32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <465F44E5.1080305@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >> (I was looking at schematics for Acorn's Risc PC the other day for someone; if >> put onto one sheet of paper it'd be around 5ft x 7ft in size - and as a lot >> of the functionality is provided by custom chips, schematic-wise it's not even >> *that* complex compared to a lot of systems) > > Dave Thompson (Microcornucopia magazine) took the XT schematics and > combined them into a 24" x 36" ? poster. It was quite handy Interesting. I take it that didn't include schematics for the FDC board, MDA / CGA board etc. though, and was just for the system board? I can't imagine it'd be very readable at that sort of size if it included all the 'extras' which turn a bare-bones system into a useful machine (joking aside about how useful the XT ever was :-) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 17:13:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20070531103400.C32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <815865.73666.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> right, but although I don't have the stuff in front of me, I'm not so sure it's that simple. It's not necessarily that a big schematic was chopped up into individual sections (I guess for the most part it was though), so a bit more intelligence might be required to assemble one large schematics. Big ol' schematics are fun. One reason why I want a big plotter (I'll prolly have to build one oi). Back when the PPC based Macs came out, I was thinking of generating schematic diagrams and selling them for money. I imagine I would have sold a few. But Mac user's aren't often all that *techie* to care :( --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 31 May 2007, Chris M wrote: > > that's useful stuff Tony. I have to wonder if > there is > > software (an algorithm?) that could take a > multi-sheet > > schematic and produce a big one page schematic out > of > > it. It's probably easy enough if you sit down and > take > > the time, but hell what are computers for??? > > some of the "hand scanners" had software to "stitch" > multiple passes > together > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 17:15:46 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WDXT-150 utilities? In-Reply-To: <034801c7a3aa$8317eea0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <438755.56557.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alexandre Souza wrote: > > I have a WDXT-150 board with a WD93024 drive. I > suspect that the drive > > is dead, as it doesn't do anything, including > spinning up, but I'd like to > > be able to run diags on it if any exist. > > If I'm not mistaken, this is a XT drive. Have > you tried entering DEBUG > and using G=C800:5 ? But that's effective in performing a low-level format, no? Of this I'm pretty sure. If it's an oldie (apparently) then fine. But with *newer* drives, and I don't know how new, you'll lose skew rates or whatever if you perform a ll format. You won't damage the drive, as is often said, but you'll lose some efficiency I guess. ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 17:18:18 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20070531113151.U32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <827320.84506.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > Dave Thompson (Microcornucopia magazine) took the XT > schematics and > combined them into a 24" x 36" ? poster. It was > quite handy Right. That's what I had in mind. Although possibly even bigger. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 17:24:34 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <03df01c7a3c1$5cc94b60$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <161950.21076.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Dave Thompson (Microcornucopia magazine) took the > XT schematics and > > combined them into a 24" x 36" ? poster. It was > quite handy > > Is this avaiable somewhere? ;o I have an XT schematic, but it's on multiple sheets if yer interested (or anyone else). It could take me a couple of weeks to dig it out though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 17:26:40 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: early IDE card on eBay In-Reply-To: <465F2EB2.4050200@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <82874.21905.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> I have an 8-bit/XT IDE card made by Acculogic (I think that was the name). It does have a PAL chip, in addition to some standard TTL chips. I'll look for one, but I was of the impression they were a little tough to find (the ones made from discrete logic that is). --- Jim Leonard wrote: > This is a 16-bit one, which are as common as dirt. > Just search for "ISA > IDE" and you'll probably find one for $10 or less in > about a week. > > The 8-bit ones, like the Silicon Valley Computer > ADP-50, are quite > *uncommon*. It's usually more common to find an > 8-bit SCSI card, > although in 2007 both are equally hard to find... > > Chris M wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/IDE-Controller-for-Hard-Drive-KS-4-16-Bit-ISA-1989_W0QQitemZ250119693356QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > Anyone have one of these they'd like to sell? I > ain't > > paying $50 though. Funny "Joe" seems to think > generic > > Taiwanese stuff should command that kind of value. > And > > he has a lot of it up for bidding, all priced in a > > similar outrageous fashion. > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready > for the edge of your seat? > > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. > > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu May 31 17:30:34 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <165910.21475.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > It appears to be in good condition too. Do you > happen to know what > year this would have been manufactured? Is it one > of the Hazeltines > with core display memory that remembers the last > thing that was > displayed after you turn it off? That would be a Hazeltine 2000. I'd like to find one of those too, or one of the CDC or Bunker-Ramo terminals that used an acoustic delay line. --Bill From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 31 17:31:23 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:31:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070530211505.06c37788@mail> Message-ID: <462291.31455.qm@web23409.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I haven't heard of either of them, but I do own one of the Vidi series cards... I believe it's called Vidi-16. There is a Vidi-32 version too (or were that Vidi-8 and Vidi-16.. urgh! I;m sure someone will correct me :) ). Both are for capturing images from TV, but I could never get Vidi-16 to work properly with my A600 (with 2MB RAM, no fastram and 4GB harddrive). I got a bunch of vertical lines which someone told me could be because the signals were encoded. Of course it couldn't of helped that I was trying to capture images from my Japanese Dreamcast (NTSC) on PAL equipment!! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk John Foust wrote: At 09:07 PM 5/30/2007, Jason T wrote: >I remember the ads for those - I thought the color wheel was the >coolest thing. It's just a radio-control servo that connected to the spare mouse port. > I wanted one for my A500. Dunno what I would have >done with it, but it was on the back cover of every copy of Info >magazine, and it was from the Video Toaster people, so I had to have it. It was slow-scan, after all, so it could take the place of a scanner or a camera for static scenes. It was certainly cheaper. The Amiga had a real-time video digitizer caleld Amiga Live! with less resolution and color fidelity from not long after its release. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 31 17:43:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 18:43:34 -0400 Subject: DRAM camera sensor In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> References: <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465CDE86.2010903@sbcglobal.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On 5/31/07, Grant Stockly wrote: > I remember a document from the 80s that described how to take a DRAM chip, > decap it, and use it as a crude camera. I think I remember something about > a lens too. It might have been a joke... No joke. > This would have to be a ceramic type DRAM chip to be decapped by an > individual (easily). Yes. > Does anyone know what I'm talking about or have the document? I thought it > sounded fun. : ) I do not know the document, but I did run across it (or one like it) and did decap a ceramic 4116 sometime in the mid-1980s (it had to be 1984 or after because I mounted the DRAM in an Apple II, and I didn't have one on-hand until 1984-1985). I never stuck a lens in front of it, but I did play with the light-sensitivity of the chip. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 31 17:50:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:50:10 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200705312027.l4VKRC26031924@keith.ezwind.net> References: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net>, <200705312027.l4VKRC26031924@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <465EEEB2.8313.1B2B858@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2007 at 16:27, Bob Bradlee wrote: > That reminds me of Metaware High-C... Was Mark Williams C ever used on the Amiga? It was what was provided to Atari ST developers back in the day...I still have mine, although nothing to run it on... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 17:51:12 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465ED118.2841.13F18CA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <631497.44265.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Funny, I always lit my thermite with a magnesium > ribbon (burns at > about 2200C/4000F). Perhaps I'm in error, but I could swear I read 6000 deg. F. Probably in Linday's literature. That does seem kind of high, given that steel only needs 2800 degrees. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 31 17:51:11 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:51:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: more eBay stuff In-Reply-To: <664536.28416.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <210908.59395.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hehe, I did see some issue of Byte for sale on eBay the other day (not the same auction), but decided against it as I don;t have the space :( I did get "Graphic On The ARM Machines" by Roger Amos (published by Dabs Press in January 1993). Not hugely great for me since I don't have an Acorn Archemedes (though I did use them at Secondary School in the early 90's) I thought, but I decided to snap it up anyway for ?5 since noone else had bid on it. The book came today and looks to be an interesting read. One of the first chapters talks about Vector graphics which is bound to teach me something. In one of the later chapters it talks about fonts, how they were made/stored and even anti-aliasing! Now I *know* anti-aliasing didn't make it into games consoles until 1997 (on Nintendo's N64 console), but I assumed it was something totally new at that time. Now I realise it must have been new to games consoles. Does anyone here know when anti-aliasing was first used and who came up with it? (No time to google it tonight) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Chris M wrote:*>> snip <<* http://cgi.ebay.com/Nearly-complete-set-of-200-Byte-Magazines_W0QQitemZ330122963198QQihZ014QQcategoryZ280QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem my back hurts just thinking about picking all that up... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 31 17:52:14 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DRAM camera sensor In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <20070531155019.H32124@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 31 May 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > I remember a document from the 80s that described how to take a DRAM chip, > decap it, and use it as a crude camera. I think I remember something about > a lens too. It might have been a joke... > This would have to be a ceramic type DRAM chip to be decapped by an > individual (easily). > Does anyone know what I'm talking about or have the document? I thought it > sounded fun. : ) Ciarcia's column in Byte Micron Eye and/or Micromint the commercial one used a C-Mount lens (Tv and 16mm movie camera) From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu May 31 18:53:28 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 18:53:28 -0500 Subject: Burroughs ICON In-Reply-To: <129599.22422.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200705312256.l4VMuQu1000843@hosting.monisys.ca> > Anyone have one? They were popular in Canada (maybe > made there??). I want it. There's a few of them kicking around Ottawa - I scanned the technical manual if you happen to need it. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From devonstopps at gmail.com Thu May 31 18:05:33 2007 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 19:05:33 -0400 Subject: Burroughs ICON Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20070531190230.025d5980@pop.gmail.com> Someone on the list has (had?) a few. I can't remember who, check the archives. Devon >Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:52:37 -0400 (EDT) >From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) >Subject: Re: Burroughs ICON > >And thusly were the wise words spake by Chris M >> >> Anyone have one? They were popular in Canada (maybe >> made there??). I want it. >> > >Ontario to be exact, where I used them in high school. Their OS was >QNX, another Canadian company. :) I have yet to see in available, >though.. :( > >Cheers, > >Bryan From cheri-post at web.de Thu May 31 18:09:54 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 01:09:54 +0200 Subject: FW: More about the dead VAX 4000-200 Message-ID: <2029655687@web.de> Ok, here's some additional information, which lets me think that the CPU-Board is definetly dead: I inserted a KZQSA-Board, as this board has an additional green DCOK-LED. While the one on the CPU-board does not lit, this one turns on (as does the one of the power supply). Moreover, I measured the supply voltages with an osciloscope, they are fine. The DCOK line has 3,51 Volts, and I assume that this can be interpreted as a "high" (please correctly me, if I'm wrong). There is some "noise", but this is just a very small voltage with a Vpp of 5 mV. The peaks appear with a frequency of 250 kHz, so I guess that this can be neglected and should not disturb the CPU-board logic. Well, I guess that I have to watch out for another KA660 board.... Regards, Pierre > Hi all, > > With the help of your hints, I did some measuring today regarding the voltages. > The voltages of the supply all lie in an acceptable range: 12,22V, 5,17V, 3,29V, -12,25V. > > I observerd recently, that when I turn on the VAX, it comes up with the languages menu und then freezes. The diagnostic displays turns from F to E and then back to F. > Turning it off and on again doesn't let the menu come up anymore (and the "E" on the display") anymore. It's completey frozen then. > I've got the impression, that some capacitors are playing bad games somewhere. > > Another thing: On the KA660-board, there are four other red LEDs, which turn on all together (and stay on) and there's a green LED. > In the CPU maintenance manual, it says that this green LED stands for "DC-OK". Well, it doesn't burn when power is applied... > Furthermore, I measured the DCOK and POK signals: The voltage is 3,51V. Do I have to interpret that as a "signal high" ? > > Tomorrow, I'm going to measure the signals and voltages with an oscilloscope. Do you guys have any further hints? > > > Regards, > Pierre > _______________________________________________________________ > SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und > kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192 > > _______________________________________________________________ SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 17:17:53 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:17:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 30, 7 10:29:32 pm Message-ID: > I have something similar in a Polaroid product - a high-res B&W CRT in > a box with an internal motorized color wheel and a video input. You > provide a 15KHz (NTSC freq) RGB video stream to the box, press the > "freeze" button, which captures an image internally, then it shows 4 > different views through the 4 portions of the wheel and exposes a > frame of film 4 times before advancing. Interesting. I have a similar, but probably older Polaroid product, called, IIRC, a 'Videoprinter 4'. There doesn't seem to be any internal video storage. You give it RS-170 timed (TV rates) RGB video) on seprate BNC sonnectors. Inside is a small mono monitor, the colour filter wheel, a stepper motor to turn that, and some control electronics. The latter is microprocesor-based, I want to say 8080, but it may be an 8085 or something. On the front is a 'camera'. This uses an enlerger lense (presumably chosen because it's computed for use at close distances) and a Polaroid SX70 film back. The camera can be removed, I got what seems to have been a home-made bracket with mine which probably held some 35mm SLR. I have no idea what SLR was used, though. Anyway, it moves each filter into the light path in turn, selects the appropriate video 'colour' signal and then unblanks the CRT for the appropriate time. After doing all three colours, it ejects the print from the side of the film back. It got it with my I2S Model 70 image processor/display systems (minicomputer peripherals dating from about 1980 IIRC). It was, alas, the only part of that system that I got no documentation on (I got full schematisc of the I2S machines and the Barco monitor, etc). Polaroid told me they'd never made such a device and couldn't supply a manual. Oh well, one day I'll take some time to figute it all out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 17:02:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:02:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465E1926.5010702@comcast.net> from "Dan" at May 30, 7 08:39:02 pm Message-ID: > > > One thing I always remember on power supplies is to not take anything > for granted when it blows out-- regarding the components health. It's > good to have a set of test equipment to check the basics, > Transistor/Mosfet Checker, ESR tester, Milliohm meter, Zener tester The other thing I use _a lot_ is a ringing tester, for detecting shorted turns in transformers, etc. A single shorted turn in the chopper transformer will cause all sorts of problems, best to find it before you blow another expensive chopper transistor. Wehn I was sorting out the Boschert 2-stage PSU in my PERQ 1 (it blew up in a big way, all 3 chopper transistors chorted, 723 regualtor chip blown apart, a couple of resistors burnt, afew small signal transistors gone too (one was just 3 wires sticking out of the PCB), and even a couple of tracks melted), I managed to borrow a nice, regulated, current-limited HV PSU. I could apply 300V to the input of the chopper circuit, knwoing I'd set the limit low enough to protect the new components if/when things went wrong. Problem is, such supplies are not cheap, and I've not managed to get one myself yet. But don't forget the humble (filament) light bulb. It makes in ideal current limiter. Connect it in series with the HT+ line from the smains smoothing capacitors to the chopper. It'll at least prevent burnt PCB tracks if things go wrong again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 17:33:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:33:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465E6D1D.93AEA15B@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at May 30, 7 11:37:40 pm Message-ID: > Those pins were from an early type of PCB edge connector. They were quite nice > in practice, and somewhat novel in that it's a unisex (hermaphroditic?) > design: they mate with another pin of the same shape (the mounting area > differs, but not the mating area). I've just been using EDAC516 series connectors [1]. The pins in those are hermaphordticv, They're fork-shaped, and fit together cross-ways.Of course the housings hold them in the approprtiate orientation. And yes, the pins I was using are gold-platedm but not solid gold [1] I needed a connector with 80 or so pins for the HP BCD interfaces. Other requirements were that it was robust, easy-ish to wore to a cable (so no 0.8mm inter-board connectors :-)), and likely to have been used for computer applications 30 uears ago. Since EDAC 516 connectors were used on the DOcumation card readers, I think they fit the bill :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 17:21:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:21:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F76@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at May 31, 7 03:33:19 am Message-ID: > > Hi Zane > See previous reply to Tony Duell. > It may be a US right angled kettle lead but its not a UK type. > > Kettles here (at least ours does) use standard IEC connectors. I'm in the UK... The kettle we have here certainly uses the 'hot condition' IEC connector with the notch. Now, that kettle is somehwat old (I've had to fit a new element to it once), and it's the 'kettle' rather than 'jug' shape, Maybe newer kettles just use the normal IEC cable. The kettle came with a moulded cable with the approrpate conenctors on the end. After about a year, the IEC connector on the kettle end developped bad contacts. I bougth a rewirabel (screw teerminal) socket from, IIRC, Farnell, and have had no more problems with it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 17:38:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:38:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465EAADE.6030809@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at May 31, 7 06:00:46 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I'm the sort of person who even repairs modern cheap > > comsumer electronics... > > I thought you were the sort of person who didn't buy modern cheap consumer > electronics in the first place? :-) Did I ever say I did? I don't have to own something to be asked to repair it :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 17:36:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:36:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465EA808.70507@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at May 31, 7 05:48:40 am Message-ID: > Yes, that one's got me at least once in the past. These days I tend to take > lots of photos and/or write down component values before trying to power > something up for the first time... So do I. And when I've powered it up, if it seems to be working, I record important voltages (like PSU outputs, CRT pin voltages, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 17:24:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:24:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 30, 7 08:14:57 pm Message-ID: > > Boards iwth known large chips (micros, memory, LSI I/O devices) are the > > easiest to do. Boards with just TTL (or 4000-series CMOS) are harder. > > Boards with all discretes are harder still. > > An 8-layer PCB with BGAs and TQFPs on it is *easy*? Maybe after a > few dozen good stiff drinks... :-) Actually, if you'll let me use a BGA rework oven so I can remove said chips and get to the connections, and provided I have data on the chips, yes. It'd be a lot easier to work out a board with such chips on than a board with, say , 1000 discrete transistors on it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 17:56:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:56:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <989563.82501.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 31, 7 09:38:59 am Message-ID: > > Dan, that's fine advice. But a capacitor is just a > capacitor. They blow. No reason someone shouldn't > replace one if that'll get their computer back up and > running. > The Tandy 2000 used a funky p/s that was prone to, I > think, one particular cap blowing. What can you do? > You could jury rig another p/s in it's place. But when > mine went (in 1989) I looked at the schematic, and Incidentally, IIRC, the Tandy 2000 PSU schematic is reprinted in the 2nd edition of The Art of Elecrtronics (!) > went to Radio Shack, then went to work. And I had my > computer back. > I guess p/s problems could be some of the WORST > problems to a computer. You could fry a number of > chips (but this is uncommon). You could always effect Indeed yes. Hence my other comment to always test a PSU on a dummy load, not on the actual machine. Certainly after repair, and IMHO if the machine has not been used for a long time (for suitable values of 'long'). It takes a lot less time to do that than to replace whatever chips have fried... Most decently-designed PSUs have crowbar circuits to protect the rest of the machine if the PSU goes crazy. Note I said 'most', not 'all'. For some unknown reason the HP9815 and HP9825 (and of course the 9831 too) do not have corwbars. In the former case, at least, the 5V PSU is a step-dwn swirtching regulator from a 30V DC line. If that chopper transistor gails, it takes out a lot of chips! > the repair, then run it under load for a few days or a > week and see how it's doing. Not everyone keeps or I think you'd have to be very unlucky (and have a fault develop by chance after the repair) for a PSU to test fine (and regulate) on dummy load and then have the regulation fail a dew days later. Haviong the chopper fail after a period of running is not uncommon, but that, in most SMPSUs, doesn't cause the outputs to go high. > even knows how to use test equipment, so sometimes you > just have to go with what you know. There's not too > many people these days that can or will work on this > stuff, so what can you do but your best. The fact that not many people will do this sort of thing now seems to be to be a good reason for having to do it yourself ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 17:44:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:44:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) In-Reply-To: <720505.14779.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 31, 7 09:12:33 am Message-ID: > > Actually, I now ermember I do have a 'digital' > > camera on the > > to-be-repaired [ole, and I suspect it's getting on > > for 20 years old... > > > > It's a 'Datacopy 300'. Inside there's a linear CCD [...] > > LOL LOL sounds more like a hand scanner matey! LOL Thank you, I do know the difference. Very few hand scanners have a Nikon bayonet lens mount on the front... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 17:49:35 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:49:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 31, 7 09:15:14 am Message-ID: > > that's useful stuff Tony. I have to wonder if there is > software (an algorithm?) that could take a multi-sheet > schematic and produce a big one page schematic out of > it. It's probably easy enough if you sit down and take > the time, but hell what are computers for??? Why would you want to? I find a many-page schematic, logically set out with saprate circuit blocks on each sheet, to be a lot easier to follow than a single large page. A few times I've traced out schematics, then later obtained the official manaul with a schematic on one sheet, and find my shcemaitcs easier to follow. I've never found computers (or CAD programs) to be much help in this sort of thing. I just use a pen and paper. Yes, my schematics would be a lot neater if re0drawn witha ruler or on a CAD system, but to be honest, I can follow my hand-drawn squiggles and would rather spend the time investigating or repairing something else. I use A4 paepr (mainly becasue it's what I can easily copy, easily get scannedm etc), and average 5 ICs to a page. So a board with 100 chips on it is going to end up as a 20 page schmatic. (For the pedants here, obviously that average doesn't apply to boards with a lot of discrete components on them, The HP9100B gating board has no ICs or even transsitors on it, just diodes and resistors, but it was still 30 or so pages of schematics). -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 31 18:24:49 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> > >[...] That compiler was obviously > > pre-ANSI or something. > K&R C allows . . . There was enormous variation in C compilers. And there were lots of programmers that thought that anything that worked for them was therefore legit. For example, what would you expect from: (and would you really expect it to behave the same on other compilers?) N = 1; A[N++] = N++; When I taught C, I would always show the class a few examples of different results from the same code in gcc, DeSmet, TurboC, . . . From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 31 18:28:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465F3A2D.5090703@neurotica.com> References: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <465EFE9C.9060508@yahoo.co.uk> <20070531113151.U32124@shell.lmi.net> <465F3A2D.5090703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070531162558.I32124@shell.lmi.net> > > Dave Thompson (Microcornucopia magazine) took the XT schematics and > > combined them into a 24" x 36" ? poster. It was quite handy > On Thu, 31 May 2007, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Is this avaiable somewhere? ;o) On Thu, 31 May 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > Is that available digitally somewhere? It WAS commercially available in dead tree form. (~15 years ago) If you can find him (he was the editor of MicroCornucopia), he would probably still have the file. My copy is somewhere in one of too many boxes. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 18:58:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: desirous of acquiring a Tektronix TC-2000 Message-ID: <793994.11623.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> protocol analyzer/dos luggable. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 31 19:21:38 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 20:21:38 -0400 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <465F6692.1090703@gmail.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Boot er no but as it seems as the system spent some or all of its life > in the insurance industry I'm not surprised the disks have been wiped. > Ok so next move. I'm going to try and make a VMS 6.2 bootable tape on > the -200 as the -300 has a TK70. They both have ethernet, why don't you just boot the 300 from the 200 using MOP? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 31 19:32:31 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 17:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465F44E5.1080305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <465EFE9C.9060508@yahoo.co.uk> <20070531113151.U32124@shell.lmi.net> <465F44E5.1080305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070531173014.M32124@shell.lmi.net> > > Dave Thompson (Microcornucopia magazine) took the XT schematics and > > combined them into a 24" x 36" ? poster. It was quite handy On Thu, 31 May 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Interesting. I take it that didn't include schematics for the FDC board, MDA / > CGA board etc. though, and was just for the system board? It was a schematic of the motherboard, based on the multiple pages of motherboard schematics in the XT Technical Reference Manual. > I can't imagine it'd be very readable at that sort of size if it included all > the 'extras' which turn a bare-bones system into a useful machine (joking > aside about how useful the XT ever was :-) If you want to include the schematics of the peripheral boards, such as FDC, then draw those schematics separately, and plug those drawings into the expansion slots of the motherboard schematics. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 31 19:35:20 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 17:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <161950.21076.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <161950.21076.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070531173329.N32124@shell.lmi.net> > > > Dave Thompson (Microcornucopia magazine) took the > > XT schematics and > > > combined them into a 24" x 36" ? poster. It was > > quite handy On Thu, 31 May 2007, Chris M wrote: > I have an XT schematic, but it's on multiple sheets > if yer interested (or anyone else). It could take me a > couple of weeks to dig it out though. That is what Dave Thompson made it from, the multiple pages of motherboard schematics in the XT Technical Reference Manual. It was definitely XT, not 5150. You could see the differences of slot #8. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 31 19:52:14 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 20:52:14 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465ED118.2841.13F18CA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <465ED118.2841.13F18CA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <465F6DBE.5030704@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 May 2007 at 12:53, woodelf wrote: > >> Chris M wrote: >>> OI let's not forget Thermite! You combine rust and >>> powdered aluminum, ignite it (with a *storm match*, >>> whatever that is), and it produces 6000 degrees F. > > Funny, I always lit my thermite with a magnesium ribbon (burns at > about 2200C/4000F). I light thermite with glycerine + potassium permanganate. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 31 19:58:43 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 20:58:43 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <465EEEB2.8313.1B2B858@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> <200705312027.l4VKRC26031924@keith.ezwind.net> <465EEEB2.8313.1B2B858@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5/31/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 May 2007 at 16:27, Bob Bradlee wrote: > > > That reminds me of Metaware High-C... > > Was Mark Williams C ever used on the Amiga? I did a lot of programming on the Amiga, from 1986-1994, and I don't recall Mark Williams C for AmigaDOS (I do remember it for other platforms). -ethan From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu May 31 20:14:23 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 18:14:23 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <06b101c7a132$c36f8190$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <3afee7520705262025n448f46bfrccc22314bf39d31a@mail.gmail.com> <06b101c7a132$c36f8190$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <3afee7520705311814y3f7f564fh545841f1a2bda1aa@mail.gmail.com> On 5/28/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Rather than repair it I'm looking to replace it with another. > > Erik, this is an easy repair! As it turns out, you (and just about everyone else who chimed in) were right - the repair was easy and nothing else in the PS was damaged. I found a power supply at my local junque place with the right cap and used it to replace my blown one. The /// is back up and running fine. It'll be off to its new owner shortly. Thanks to everyone who replied, both on and off topic. ;) -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 31 20:13:54 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 20:13:54 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <465EEEB2.8313.1B2B858@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> <200705312027.l4VKRC26031924@keith.ezwind.net> <465EEEB2.8313.1B2B858@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070531201211.06fe41b8@mail> At 05:50 PM 5/31/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 31 May 2007 at 16:27, Bob Bradlee wrote: > >> That reminds me of Metaware High-C... > >Was Mark Williams C ever used on the Amiga? It was what was provided >to Atari ST developers back in the day... No, I don't think they ever ported. With CBM's payment to Lattice to get a compiler, and Manx's entry, they would've been splitting the market three ways. - John From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 31 20:41:31 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:41:31 -0300 Subject: Early Electronic Image Capture References: <418760.54554.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <046101c7a3ee$b30f0b40$f0fea8c0@alpha> > There may have been different devices by the > ComputerEyes people, but I think they had at least 1 > ISA board IIRC. Hmm, well remembered, I still have one of that here. Anyone wanna see photos?> From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 31 20:57:32 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:57:32 -0300 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) References: <898917.41419.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04a401c7a3f0$e8dfd450$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I think Virginia Tech was a customer. Too bad the port never got the > marketing it deserved. SVR4 with the Amiga graphics could've been a slick > video editing system. The Amiga OS with the Amiga graphics is a very slick video edit system anyways :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 31 21:05:52 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:05:52 -0400 Subject: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. Message-ID: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> I can see paying $50 for a Kaypro II. Maybe even $75. But $25,000.00? eBay #300039229895 -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 31 21:09:27 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:09:27 -0300 Subject: enough already (was: digital camera capabilities) References: Message-ID: <04ad01c7a3f1$ebe27080$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Thank you, I do know the difference. Very few hand scanners have a Nikon > bayonet lens mount on the front... Hmmm...since the CCD is not read at once (it is scanned) and you take the camera with your hand, I know many Nikon cameras with bayonet lens mount on the front :o) Sorry Tony, I couldn't resist that :oD Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza LMAO! >:oD From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 31 22:14:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 20:14:25 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 30, 7 08:14:57 pm, Message-ID: <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2007 at 23:24, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, if you'll let me use a BGA rework oven so I can remove said > chips and get to the connections, and provided I have data on the chips, > yes. It'd be a lot easier to work out a board with such chips on than a > board with, say , 1000 discrete transistors on it. A modern board that has chips that are listed in a databook? Ha! I'll take the 1000 transistor board--it's more likely to be 2 layers and most likely with circuits that repeat. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 31 22:19:11 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 20:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 31, 7 04:24:49 pm" Message-ID: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> > > >[...] That compiler was obviously > > > pre-ANSI or something. > > K&R C allows . . . > > There was enormous variation in C compilers. And there were lots of > programmers that thought that anything that worked for them was therefore > legit. For example, what would you expect from: > (and would you really expect it to behave the same on other compilers?) > > N = 1; > A[N++] = N++; I'd expect that to evaluate to a[1]=2 and n winds up being 3. But I'm weird. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If I wanted your opinion, I'd have beaten it out of you. ------------------- From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 31 22:17:46 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:17:46 -0400 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <3afee7520705311814y3f7f564fh545841f1a2bda1aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <3afee7520705262025n448f46bfrccc22314bf39d31a@mail.gmail.com> <06b101c7a132$c36f8190$f0fea8c0@alpha> <3afee7520705311814y3f7f564fh545841f1a2bda1aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200705312317.47433.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 31 May 2007 21:14, Erik Klein wrote: > On 5/28/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > Rather than repair it I'm looking to replace it with another. > > > > Erik, this is an easy repair! > > As it turns out, you (and just about everyone else who chimed in) were > right - the repair was easy and nothing else in the PS was damaged. > > I found a power supply at my local junque place with the right cap and > used it to replace my blown one. The /// is back up and running fine. > It'll be off to its new owner shortly. Awesome, that's great to hear! > Thanks to everyone who replied, both on and off topic. ;) I'm glad the flame war didn't piss you off too badly. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 31 22:33:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:33:24 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <04a401c7a3f0$e8dfd450$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <898917.41419.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <04a401c7a3f0$e8dfd450$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 5/31/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > I think Virginia Tech was a customer. Too bad the port never got the > > marketing it deserved. SVR4 with the Amiga graphics could've been a slick > > video editing system. > > The Amiga OS with the Amiga graphics is a very slick video edit system > anyways :) I've wanted to play with Amix, but just haven't had the time to load it - I do have plenty of spare SCSI drives, and at least one A3000/25 with a full boat of onboard RAM and an A2065, but, to be honest, when Amix was fresh, I was using AmigaDOS every day, didn't have a spare machine, didn't have (still don't have) better graphics than the onboard ECS chips, and was already running UNIX on other hardware that wasn't as slick as the Amiga. So... in my book, Amix wasn't a terrible idea, but it just never seemed like a slam-dunk for me personally. Don't get me wrong; I love UNIX, and have been using and adminstrating and developing on it for 23 years (starting with 4BSD and SysV on a VAX-11/750). I just think the Amiga can do a lot more interesting stuff under its native OS, and there's *plenty* of platforms out there for which UNIX _is_ the best choice. -ethan From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu May 31 22:51:01 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 20:51:01 -0700 Subject: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. In-Reply-To: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> References: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <465F97A5.9050700@msm.umr.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > > I can see paying $50 for a Kaypro II. Maybe even $75. > > But $25,000.00? > > eBay #300039229895 the guy who listed it didn't do his logic right. A Kaypro II s/n 3 is arguably worth some amount, maybe more than a pedestrian one is, and if it is primo I agree, I'd pop a couple of hundred or so in a good mood. But the s/n 00003 he is gaga over is for the test set the Kaypro was part of. Probably some specialty house who had two lame attempts as s/n 1 and 2,and this might be the last. Nothing to do with anything special at kaypro. total miss by whoever listed it. I agree $50 or so on a good day. where is dk these days, he needs to drop a few thousand on this one. jim From dm561 at torfree.net Wed May 30 21:53:35 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:53:35 -0300 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? Message-ID: <01C7A315.DADCE9A0@MSE_D03> Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:30:34 -0700 (PDT) From: William Maddox Subject: Re: Hazeltine 1400 info? -------------Original Message: --- Richard wrote: > It appears to be in good condition too. Do you > happen to know what > year this would have been manufactured? Is it one > of the Hazeltines > with core display memory that remembers the last > thing that was > displayed after you turn it off? That would be a Hazeltine 2000. I'd like to find one of those too, or one of the CDC or Bunker-Ramo terminals that used an acoustic delay line. --Bill ---------------- Reply: I scrapped one of those CDC units many years ago; now that was a "real" terminal - made a nice printer stand... Still have the delay line and a few dozen boards out of it somewhere if ya ever need any parts for one. Also a Bunker-Ramo modem from the days when a modem was a modem... m From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu May 31 22:53:42 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 20:53:42 -0700 Subject: o man old was: vintage camera thingees or something In-Reply-To: <215787.92609.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <215787.92609.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465F9846.3050000@msm.umr.edu> Chris M wrote: ><150126131198> > > >aren't you all so glad I'm working overtime to find >all the rare good stuff! Somebody ought to buy that >thing then send it to me as a reward. Hmmph. > > I collect such gizmos. This one is interesting, but the 76 this guy fell in love with as the mfg date is at odds with the date codes on the fairchild chips which are 81, I think. someone correct me if there was 81xx, but I think this is the guts of an ordinary 1k reticon line scan camera, not probably as old as the 70's or even 80's and not very valuable. I don't think reticon made their arrays either, but I could be wrong. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 31 23:02:52 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 21:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20070531205632.S32124@shell.lmi.net> > > N = 1; > > A[N++] = N++; On Thu, 31 May 2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I'd expect that to evaluate to a[1]=2 and n winds up being 3. But I'm weird. a very reasonable possibility But, it assumes that the evaluation and increment of N in the lvalue occur before the evaluation and increment of the right side of the assignment. You can't count on all pre-ansi C compilers doing it that order. K&R include at least one similar example, of what not to do. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 31 23:37:14 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 21:37:14 -0700 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. In-Reply-To: <000501c7a3ac$3210c250$c901a8c0@uatempname> References: <000501c7a3ac$3210c250$c901a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: At 6:50 PM +0100 5/31/07, wrote: >Wait till you move a DECarray 900 full of RZ drives and a couple of >TZ877s :-) I can just imagine, a few years ago I moved two DEC array's (I didn't get the rack. 3 shelves of drives each, with a fourth shelf per array for the HSZ50's. My '72 Dodge Pickup groaned! Of course once I got them up the stairs I promptly decided even a single array was to loud, stripped them of fans and drives to upgrade existing BA350 shelves, and put the rest into storage. I also have a couple Quantum L200 tape libraries, I suspect a TZ877 is quite a bit heavier. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu May 31 23:32:20 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 21:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PixelCraft Pro Imager large format scanners CHEAP Message-ID: This goes out to all the people scanning documents and maintaining archives. I just got in a large lot of PixelCraft Pro Imager 8100 and 8200 large format (11x17) scanners. These are refurbished units in their original crate, ready for shipping. The only downside: no software. At least none that I've been able to find so far, though I've been told by a former developer of driver and application software for them that the programs QuickScan or ColorAccess should work with these scanners, with (he believes) ColorAccess being bundled with the driver. I found a Japanese download site that seems to have ColorAccess v1.2, but damned if I can figure out what's going on: http://www.vector.co.jp/soft/dl/win95/net/se292407.html If someone knows where to find these programs then please let me know. Here's a quick review: http://www.macuser.co.uk/macuser/labs/17369/pixelcraft-pro-imager-8200.html?searchString= Here is a "shoot-out" that a manufacturer did to compare color scanning performance of various scanners, including an 8200 model: http://www.spectralmasters.com/Yellow%20Slide%20Shootout%20-%20Web.pdf Here are photos I took: http://www.siconic.com/crap/PixelCraft-PI-1.JPG http://www.siconic.com/crap/PixelCraft-PI-2.JPG http://www.siconic.com/crap/PixelCraft-PI-3.JPG Note: these were about $12,000 new. I'd like $50 each. Shipping will probably be about $100. They are already on crates, so shipping will be by freight. Please contact me directly if you can use one. Soon. ;) P.S. I'll be at VCF East 4.0 next week! http://www.vintage.org/2007/east/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 31 23:58:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 21:58:47 -0700 Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20070531162558.I32124@shell.lmi.net> References: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com>, <465F3A2D.5090703@neurotica.com>, <20070531162558.I32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <465F4517.28644.3042DCC@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2007 at 16:28, Fred Cisin wrote: > It WAS commercially available in dead tree form. (~15 years ago) > If you can find him (he was the editor of MicroCornucopia), he would > probably still have the file. > > My copy is somewhere in one of too many boxes. Larry Fogg is still listed in the Bend telephone directory, but I don't know which of the three David Thompsons is the real thing (if any). Could be, since he really liked living in the high desert (I like green things, myself, so I'm on the wet side). That was a very long time ago. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 31 23:59:37 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:59:37 -0600 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465FA7B9.3020900@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, if you'll let me use a BGA rework oven so I can remove said > chips and get to the connections, and provided I have data on the chips, > yes. It'd be a lot easier to work out a board with such chips on than a > board with, say , 1000 discrete transistors on it. Well if you can cram on *one* more transistor you can clone a PDP 8/S. > -tony Why not just get a X-ray machine instead. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 31 17:19:03 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 18:19:03 -0400 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? Message-ID: <0JIX00MJLFBEG4B5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hazeltine 1400 info? > From: Richard > Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:53:15 -0600 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >In article <3629638E-1D52-4A9A-B23C-2639BEE62C5E at neurotica.com>, > Dave McGuire writes: > >> On May 30, 2007, at 3:20 PM, Richard wrote: >> > I just purchased a Hazeltine 1400 terminal from ebay. This terminal >> > apparently has no lower case, so it seems like quite an oldie. >> >> Cool! I saw that, and would've chased it if I weren't out of >> money at the moment. I sat in front of a 1420, and later a 1500, for >> a long time many years ago. > >It appears to be in good condition too. Do you happen to know what >year this would have been manufactured? Is it one of the Hazeltines >with core display memory that remembers the last thing that was >displayed after you turn it off? NO core, that was the 1000/1100/1200 series. Those were early 1970s as I used a 1200 on BOCES LYRICS TOPS-10 system in '72. The 1400 series was after the 1500 series and was effectively a cost reduced (cheaper to build and sell) terminal. The 1400 was circa 1976-78 or so. Allison >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From james at machineroom.info Thu May 31 17:21:25 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:21:25 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! Message-ID: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125971585&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk Optimistic is an under statement :-) From james at machineroom.info Thu May 31 17:46:03 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:46:03 +0100 Subject: Prime system available in UK Message-ID: <465F502B.7060508@machineroom.info> Earlier this year I posted the following describing the Prime I need to get rid of. Despite some interest, it's still taking up valuable space in my workshop and I would really like it gone :-) I've offered to send one set of the full backup tapes (there's two sets) to Al Kossow (which I haven't yet got around to but will soon!) and some of the manuals are scanned and up on http://www.machineroom.info. I may even be persuaded into delivering at cost. If it doesn't go this time it will spend a week on eBay then sad to say will have to be scrapped after anything useful is removed. Cheers, James ---------------- Hi all, this is probably the shortest time I've owned a machine. Bought just a few months ago as a "project" I now have it to offer again. I simply don't have the skill to get this running. I've also got too many other projects :) It's ex Salford Uni Prime 2550. Comes with 2 disk drives, 1 tape drive, 3 boxes of manuals, 2 boxes of tapes, 4 5.25" floppy drives, a box of cables and a bunch of terminal lines. Pictures (including all the manual covers) are here http://www.flickr.com/photos/17208732 at N00/sets/72157594565763356/ Located in Southampton near M27 J7. It's yours for the taking. I'd like it to go to a genuine collector but will consider any and all interest! I can hang on to it for a few weeks but it's just taking up valuable space right now. If there's no interest in the entire system then I may part out boards, manuals, etc. As I understand it when I bought this it had previously sat for a year unused. Previous to that it had sat for a few years in a garage and been used occasionally and prior to that had been in the hands of the chap who rescued it from Salford. When I received it I had problems getting anything sensible on the terminal then things went downhill and I discovered the main 5V PSU had failed. I tried replacing that with an external 200A unit borrowed from my Cray EL but hadn't considered how many other signals are generated by the power supply. (MAN070 is available on bitsavers but this only covers the older Prime models - the power supply signals look the same but the VCP is very different). The ? 12 and +16 are all OK. I tried faking some of the power good signals and checked others (50Hz clock, etc). I even found one signal had broken on the backplane and have repaired that. Unfortunately without the manual for this specific model I'm stuck. In it's current condition it just sits with all front panel lights on and nothing on the console. CPU: As I say, the 5V supply has failed. I've patched several lines (the power good signals) inside the supply. I've had all the boards out, cleaned the connectors and vacumed the boards and case. I can include an 80A 5V supply if it's of any use to you (I'd hope 80A is sufficient. The 200A unit I was using is now back with the Cray!!) Disk drives: I found that the bolts holding the disk units in the casings were missing (a bag of "spares" was supplied which included the bolts and rubber mountings). I replaced the bolts before powering up, thankfully! One of the disk units powers up and spins. The other doesn't power at all. I removed all the dust too whilst the drives were out. Tape drive: Powers up and front panel buttons seem to "do stuff" but can't test any further. Tapes: These are all externally clean but a lot of the casings have cracked. You'll need some experience with 9 tracks to read these I expect. Documentation: There's a lot of very tidy manuals and also quite a few loose manuals in ring binders. There's also about 10 pocket guides. What is nice is the collection of history - there's administrator logs, service requests, etc. Floppy drives: I'm told the two original Prime badged units have failed. There's a couple of more modern replacements (and a handful of floppies) included - one of these should work! Without a working system I obviously can't test anything. Therefore, you should consider this as a source of spares or possible repair if you have the skill and/or manuals. I'm around most weekends for collection and can obviously give a hand loading. A standard SWB Transit does the job nicely. So come on, give the Prime a new home. Please :) James From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu May 31 22:11:07 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 04:11:07 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> It looks like the consensus is to get the -300 to do a network boot and then restore from the -200 to the -300. I have a few points relating to this. 1. The -200 runs TCPWARE and not DECNET. 2. I now understand what needs to be done but I need a bit more (step by step) detail on how to do it. 3. Is producing a bootable tape on the -200 and restoring it on the -300 too difficult? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org Sent: 31 May 2007 18:51 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Rod Smallwood wrote: > Firstly a big thanks (THANKS) to all those who responded to the power > plug question. > I bought the VAX 4000-300 system on UK Ebay and did the 250 mile trip > to Cambridge to collect it early on Saturday. These things are not > that big but weigh a ton!! The guy selling it was lot larger than I > (thank heavans!) I did not know the suspension in may car went that > low! Wait till you move a DECarray 900 full of RZ drives and a couple of TZ877s :-) > The -300 also has a KZQSA (SCSI) controller and whilst they are no > good with hard drives I think they work with CD ROM's I also have a > stand alone SCSI CD drive (Yamaha CRW4416SX) it has the really small > SCSI plugs (inch and a bit long) on the back and the KZQSA has the > really big ones. There are cables that go from the Amphenol 50-way (on the KZQSA) to whatever might be on the Yamaha. There are also various adapters that might help. > Comments on which is best way to proceed welcomed. Here's the abridged version: Given that you have another VAX, the easiest way is to configure the existing VAX as a cluster, configure the existing VAX to accept the VAX 4000-300 as a satellite and then boot it as a satellite. Now initialise the disks on the VAX 4000-300, if required. Restore the .B saveset onto whichever VAX 4000-300 disk you want to use as your system disk. Copy across all the installation savesets (VMS062.* and DECW062.*) onto that disks [000000] directory. Shutdown the VAX 4000-300 and reboot from the new system disk. Answer the questions. Enjoy your new VMS system. Antonio