From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 1 00:24:49 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 01:24:49 -0400 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> <462F3ACB.5281.142E0331@cclist.sydex.com> <1177618113.21916.91.camel@linux.site> <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Apr 30, 2007, at 5:28 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> You can't beat Vern Buerg's Veneered and Generated LIST. After >>> many years, still my favorite. >>> >>> http://www.buerg.com/ >> That's got MY vote, FWIW. > > It's nice to see LIST getting the votes, but it's very slow on 808x > hardware, which was Dave's target platform. Buh?? I don't think I've ever seen a lighter-weight piece of software than LIST...I used it daily when my 8MHz V20-based PC clone was considered a screamer, and it was never any slower than "instant". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 1 00:49:08 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 02:49:08 -0300 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C597@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <02b801c78bb4$bef35260$f0fea8c0@alpha> >continued to play with floppy media for years. A wonderful example is their >Cricket drive - every PC collection should have one. Maybe Click? :o) That was nice, a drive inside a pcmcia card :oD From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 1 00:50:56 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 02:50:56 -0300 Subject: WY-30 10 duds Wyse terminals update: References: <20070501011626.MMTK1630.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <02b901c78bb4$bf33b6c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Note: I had diffcult time finding 6800 (68B00 same CPU but it's 2MHz) > datasheet. Still couldn't find it except for pinout which helped me > to figure out that one terminal. http://www.datasheetarchive.com/search.php?q=6800&sType=part&ExactDS=Starts Datasheetarchive is your friend ;o) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 1 01:28:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 02:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <46361098.5000206@garlic.com> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46361098.5000206@garlic.com> Message-ID: <200705010634.CAA28007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I don't recall any sV or BSD system I used through to the late 80's > having anything but the Enigma style crypt function for passwords. The mtXinu 4.3+NFS I used in the late '80s used DES-based password hashing. Enigma-style encryption was present as crypt(1), but crypt(3) was quite definitely salted-mutant-DES. SunOS of the same era also used the same mutant-DES algorithm, but I have no memories to say just how far back this was true. I *think* this was also true of 4.2; until now I'd've assumed it was also true of 4.1c before it, but that was an assumption - I can't recall ever looking at the password handling code under 4.1c. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue May 1 01:44:12 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:44:12 -0700 Subject: Big IBM stuff at auction closing soon. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4636E1BC.4020300@sbcglobal.net> Big and heavy IBM stuff closing soon. I could probably help someone pick this up and move it in the SF bay area. http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=185531 Bob From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 1 01:45:46 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 01:45:46 -0500 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> <462F3ACB.5281.142E0331@cclist.sydex.com> <1177618113.21916.91.camel@linux.site> <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4636E21A.1030904@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: >> It's nice to see LIST getting the votes, but it's very slow on 808x >> hardware, which was Dave's target platform. > > > Buh?? I don't think I've ever seen a lighter-weight piece of > software than LIST...I used it daily when my 8MHz V20-based PC clone > was considered a screamer, and it was never any slower than "instant". An 8MHz 8086 is more than twice as fast as Dave's target hardware (a 4.77MHz 8088). On such a machine, it would be tolerable. Look, it's a nice viewer, but view a file out of a ramdisk on a 4.77MHz 8088 if you don't believe me. There's a 5-second minimum startup delay to fill a buffer, then another delay when you cross memory windows. If you're trying to inspect more than a handful of files at the same time, it gets frustrating. Don't confuse small size and age with "lightweight". A Boyer-Moore search algorithm written in Pascal will outperform a REP CMPSB in assembler. LIST is flexible but it's not the fastest. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From robert at irrelevant.com Tue May 1 06:23:31 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:23:31 +0100 Subject: - old school security In-Reply-To: <200705010634.CAA28007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <462EAC71.104@compsys.to> <462EB73F.10200@arachelian.com> <200704250617.CAA12157@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20070425114103.R58204@shell.lmi.net> <200704252004.QAA18362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46361098.5000206@garlic.com> <200705010634.CAA28007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705010423r429525as12471ffa635be461@mail.gmail.com> One very trivial scheme I saw used once, more to hide from hex dumps rather than actually encrypt, was to shift the enire bit stream over by 4 bits. e.g. "memory", 6d 65 6d 6f 72 79, would be stored as 06 d6 56 d6 f7 27 90. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 1 07:18:11 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 08:18:11 -0400 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <02b801c78bb4$bef35260$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C597@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <02b801c78bb4$bef35260$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 5/1/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >continued to play with floppy media for years. A wonderful example is their > >Cricket drive - every PC collection should have one. > > Maybe Click? :o) That was nice, a drive inside a pcmcia card :oD I have a couple of those - I had to use one a year ago as it was the best choice to transfer a few dozen megs to a laptop that needed driver updates after an install. I could have pulled the laptop's drive and written to it externally, or I could have gone searching (somewhere) for a USB floppy drive, or a thumb drive, but both machines on the desk had PCMCIA, and I had 2 Click drives and a couple of disks, so it made sense. Is it me, or do the Click media look like the disks in the "museum of alien technology" scene in "Men In Black" ("Now I'm going to have to go buy the White Album again")? -ethan From feldman.r at comcast.net Tue May 1 08:36:37 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 13:36:37 +0000 Subject: IBM 540MB old hard drive Message-ID: <050120071336.9817.46374265000E8FF50000265922070215739DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Hi Jim, I'm going to the City of Chicago recycling center on Goose Island this weekend to dump some old monitors. I'll let you know if there is anything interesting there. Otherwise, as you say, the thrift stores in Chicago are worthless. I had much better luck with the dumpster out behind a local computer repair place near Northeastern Illinois University (5600 N, 3500W) until they moved. From the junk discarded, it looked like they had contracts to service copy machines and some document scanning systems, as well as PC's. You might want to leave word with places like that about what you are interested in. Bob P.S. Jim, my email to trixter at oldskool.org was bounced with the following message: The following addresses had fatal errors: trixter at oldskool.org: 550 [PERMFAIL] destination not valid within DNS Message: 7 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:33:59 -0500 From: Jim Leonard Subject: Re: IBM 540MB old hard drive To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <463660C7.4090209 at oldskool.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Paxton Hoag wrote: > In Portland Oregon I would try the Free Geeks Thrift Store on 10th St > east side 2 blocks south of Hawthorn. > > In Eugene Oregon I would look at NextStep Recycling thrift store. They > often have 2 inch hard drives but I haven't looked at them. Are there any of these kinds of stores in the Chicagoland area? The only one I know of is Software Re-Runs, but that's more of a repair shop than a recycler/thrift. I have had *zero* out of at least 20 goodwill store successes (99% of the computer stuff is old VGA monitors) so that's out in this area. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 1 08:47:38 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 07:47:38 -0600 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:09:47 -0700. <46365B1B.30368.AD8187F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <46365B1B.30368.AD8187F at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > The Imation guy got back to me and informed me that, as far as the > factory is concerned, there is no belt. They start with die-cut > doughnuts of a type of sheet polyurethane (proprietary treatment) > and feed them into a jig that "flips" and stretches them to shape. > He said that it was virtually impossible to do this manually. > > So, if you've got a belt that holds its shape as a belt, it's > probably too far gone already. Would it be possible to setup something like the rig that Al has at the Computer History Museum for QIC tapes? Namely, something with analog read heads that are connected straight to an ADC and signal processed to recover data. You have the tape brought over the heads at a slower than normal rate, either manually or with a special motorized rig. I have a feeling that after 7/9-track tapes that QIC cartridges are going to be the next major medium that needs reconstruction in this fashion. They don't use helical scan on QIC tapes do they? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 10:15:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 08:15:18 -0700 Subject: DC-600/300XL tape cart observation In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4636F716.30033.D396BF5@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2007 at 7:47, Richard wrote: > Would it be possible to setup something like the rig that Al has at > the Computer History Museum for QIC tapes? Maybe, but I think the best thing to start with would be a standard 3-motor setup (one motor per reel and one on the capstan. You'd have to remove the tape spools from the cartridge, of course, but I suspect it might be possible to set something like this up with the works from an old audio cassette drive. Tracks on a QIC cart are serpentine--they reverse direction at each tape end. QIC tape tracks tend to be very narrow, which means that if you're going to use lower tape speeds, a modern head (GMR?) might be a good choice. I don't know why it couldn't be done, but we haven't yet seen a lot of QIC recovery work to justify this yet. I suspect that DLTwill be the jackpot medium in data recovery. > They don't use helical scan on QIC tapes do they? Not on the big carts, but I think there were some helical-scan Travan tapes, weren't there? And there was the Pereos--thank heavens, the life on that venture was mercifully short. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue May 1 11:09:25 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:09:25 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C599@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> * Alexandre Souza wrote: >continued to play with floppy media for years. A wonderful example is their >Cricket drive - every PC collection should have one. Maybe Click? :o) That was nice, a drive inside a pcmcia card :oD ---------------- You're right. My bad. Too much crosstalk between my synapses. The IOmega drive was the Click. The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did get to market. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 11:29:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 09:29:06 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C599@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C599@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46370862.15266.D7CFA34@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2007 at 9:09, Billy Pettit wrote: > The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market > though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did > get to market. Didn't HP roll out a very small hard drive before that? I seem to recall that there was something about the head suspension that would enable it to withstand very high G-forces. Cheers, Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Tue May 1 11:53:45 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <46370862.15266.D7CFA34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C599@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46370862.15266.D7CFA34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 May 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 09:29:06 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving > > On 1 May 2007 at 9:09, Billy Pettit wrote: > >> The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market >> though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did >> get to market. > > Didn't HP roll out a very small hard drive before that? I seem to > recall that there was something about the head suspension that would > enable it to withstand very high G-forces. > > Cheers, > Chuck > The KittyHawk, but that was 1.3" and 1992 Peter Wallace From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 1 11:58:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:58:50 -0400 Subject: Good DOS binary file viewer? In-Reply-To: <4636E21A.1030904@oldskool.org> References: <462F9738.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> <462F3ACB.5281.142E0331@cclist.sydex.com> <1177618113.21916.91.camel@linux.site> <46365F6F.8040103@oldskool.org> <4636E21A.1030904@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <47439BAB-A946-4497-9EE7-DE3A00D39DE3@neurotica.com> On May 1, 2007, at 2:45 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> It's nice to see LIST getting the votes, but it's very slow on >>> 808x hardware, which was Dave's target platform. >> Buh?? I don't think I've ever seen a lighter-weight piece of >> software than LIST...I used it daily when my 8MHz V20-based PC >> clone was considered a screamer, and it was never any slower than >> "instant". > > An 8MHz 8086 is more than twice as fast as Dave's target hardware > (a 4.77MHz 8088). On such a machine, it would be tolerable. > > Look, it's a nice viewer, but view a file out of a ramdisk on a > 4.77MHz 8088 if you don't believe me. There's a 5-second minimum > startup delay to fill a buffer, then another delay when you cross > memory windows. If you're trying to inspect more than a handful of > files at the same time, it gets frustrating. Hmm. Well admittedly that was twenty years ago; it's certainly quite possible that there was frustration involved that I don't recall now. I have nothing but fond memories of LIST.COM, and I tend to be not very forgiving about stuff that frustrates me. > Don't confuse small size and age with "lightweight". Um...I *wasn't*; I based my comments on having used the program all the time on what was then considered current hardware. Please keep in mind that some of us here (yourself included of course) have actually used this stuff before it became "antique". > A Boyer-Moore search algorithm written in Pascal will outperform > a REP CMPSB in assembler. LIST is flexible but it's not the fastest. Understood. And I've certainly not run it on a 4.77MHz 8088. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue May 1 14:08:28 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:08:28 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: On 1 May 2007 at 9:09, Billy Pettit wrote: > The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market > though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did > get to market. Didn't HP roll out a very small hard drive before that? I seem to recall that there was something about the head suspension that would enable it to withstand very high G-forces. Cheers, Chuck --------------------- Billy wrote: HP rolled out the Kittyhawk in the mid-'80s. It had reasonable success in some printers and copiers, as well as a few other applications. They are fun little drives to play with. The Cricket was about 8 years earlier and had no success - the technology wasn't there. There were many other experiments in small factor over the last 30 years. I remember a Comdex in the late '80s where IBM showed off a 7/8" drive. They were going to mount 32 of them on both sides of PC card and have a plug in RAID system. Like all multiple drive applications, the vibration from drive working gave errors to the rest. Conner made a 1.3 inch drive in the early '90s. I see them on eBay a few times a year. I have one that is still operational. There have been numerous attempts at the small form factor. The iPod was the first practical application so it drove the 1.8" development and production. It also drove the 1" development. That turned out to be a disaster for everyone involved when the Price War on NAND Flash destroyed the 1" market. It didn't help the Flash people either. (So far this year, NAND prices have dropped 65%!) There must have been other small drives. It's an idea that looks great until you try to do execute. I've only mentioned the ones that I worked on or have samples to study. Billy From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 1 14:36:26 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:36:26 -0300 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C599@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <03ce01c78c28$6e8d4140$f0fea8c0@alpha> >The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market >though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did >get to market. Billy, wasn't that drive that fitted a Polaroid PDC-2000 camera? I had one of these with a VERY SMALL hard drive inside! Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 15:10:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 13:10:58 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46373C62.22648.E4819EF@cclist.sydex.com> What was the smallest fixed-head drum memory ever constructed? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 13:11:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:11:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 In-Reply-To: <292221.34185.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 30, 7 03:55:27 pm Message-ID: > > Interestingly, there is no ROM chip in a PCW. Part > > of the ULA acts as a > > tiny bootstrap ROM (it outputs the correct states > > onto the data bus > > depending on the state of the address bus), just > > enough to read the boot > > sector into RAM and execute it. > > Holy freeholy Batman. Now that's a first for me. It something of a shock for me when I read the schematics (amazingly I've never seen inside a physical PCW...) [Serial/parallel interface] > > no idea where you'd > > find one. > > Gee thanks mate. Leave me hanging. Yes I was made > aware of the interface. But for starters I think I'll > need to worry more about hacking up a ribbon. As if > I'd find the time... > > Contrariwise I guess it wouldn't be any big deal to > create an rs-232* interface from scratch. I can dream > can't I? AFAIKL there are no custom chips in it, it's jsut a bit of TTL, and some standard peripheral chips. I can find out more (and find the pinout of the bus connector) if you're serious about making one. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 1 15:55:14 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 15:55:14 -0500 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <46373C62.22648.E4819EF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46373C62.22648.E4819EF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4637A932.4070600@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What was the smallest fixed-head drum memory ever constructed? something out of a musical box, I suspect... From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue May 1 16:07:48 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:07:48 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis asked: What was the smallest fixed-head drum memory ever constructed? Cheers, Chuck ----------------- Billy: The smallest I ever worked on was a little less than 1" in diameter and 3" long. It used fluid bearings and spun at a high RPM - I want to say 10K but think it might be a little less. The heads fit on a bar that rotated to bring them close to the drum once it was up to speed. The bar was spring loaded so it could unload the heads automatically in case of a power failure. The whole assembly was heavily shielded and shock protected. It was to fit in a fire control computer used by the Navy and Air Force. It's purpose was to reload the main computer memories in case of an EMP from a nuclear device. It really sticks in my mind because I later found out that the purchase price was in excess of $100K. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue May 1 16:19:19 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:19:19 -0700 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Alexandre Souza asked: >The Cricket was the first 1.6 inch hard drive. Never made it to market >though a few samples exist. It was 20 years before the 1.8 inch which did >get to market. Billy, wasn't that drive that fitted a Polaroid PDC-2000 camera? I had one of these with a VERY SMALL hard drive inside! Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza ---------------------- Billy answers: To my knowledge, no Crickets were ever sold. But an awful lot of samples went out. It was designed and built in the Normandale plant of Magnetic Peripherals. I know nothing about the Poloroid camera. But I'm not surprised. The small drive idea is one that seems to come to every engineer in the industry. There have to be more attempts. It's a geek thing. Keeps coming around; sort of like the 3.5" CD, or the vertical IC. Billy From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 1 16:21:24 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 17:21:24 -0400 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving In-Reply-To: <4637A932.4070600@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59A@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46373C62.22648.E4819EF@cclist.sydex.com> <4637A932.4070600@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4637AF54.7030908@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> What was the smallest fixed-head drum memory ever constructed? > > something out of a musical box, I suspect... Quite possibly something even smaller than that. I myself made one as part of an elementary school class (3rd grade? Maybe 2nd.) out of a strip of paper wrapped around a pencil. Peace... Sridhar From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue May 1 14:19:15 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:19:15 +0000 Subject: WY-30 10 duds Wyse terminals update: In-Reply-To: <02b901c78bb4$bf33b6c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20070501231805.EYXU1593.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > http://www.datasheetarchive.com/search.php?q=6800&sType=part&ExactDS=Starts > > Datasheetarchive is your friend ;o) Alexandre, Thanks, and to others, is replacement generic flyback still in production for the WY-30? I have at least three that needs this. Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue May 1 14:22:01 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:22:01 +0000 Subject: WY-30 10 duds Wyse terminals update: In-Reply-To: <02b901c78bb4$bf33b6c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20070501232051.GCRV1612.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> While on this, I have couple that showed the frying D201 and D203 off the flyback but not so bad it would short, merely get so hot enough to melt solder! Is this sign of bad flyback transformer? Cheers, Wizard From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 18:55:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> References: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> Message-ID: <20070501165258.E83814@shell.lmi.net> > (When they start packaging food in those blankin' soddin' vinyl packages, I > expect to start hearing of people starving to death for being unable to open them.) ~25 years ago, a student in the lab managed to get the mylar out of it's jacket of a 5.25" diskette. Somebody asked her, "how come you didn't realize that something was wrong when it was so hard to take apart?" She replied, "it's just about as hard to open a bag of potato chips" From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 1 19:19:18 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 20:19:18 -0400 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <20070501165258.E83814@shell.lmi.net> References: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> <20070501165258.E83814@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4637D906.8010902@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> (When they start packaging food in those blankin' soddin' vinyl packages, I >> expect to start hearing of people starving to death for being unable to open them.) > > ~25 years ago, a student in the lab managed to get the mylar out of it's > jacket of a 5.25" diskette. Somebody asked her, "how come you didn't > realize that something was wrong when it was so hard to take apart?" > She replied, "it's just about as hard to open a bag of potato chips" I once got a similar explanation from someone who forced a second 3.5" floopy into a drive. "It wasn't that hard." Peace... Sridhar From fmc at reanimators.org Tue May 1 19:23:53 2007 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 17:23:53 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> (onymouse@garlic.com's message of "Mon\, 30 Apr 2007 09\:04\:52 -0700") References: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> Message-ID: <200705020023.l420NruJ002413@lots.reanimators.org> jd wrote: > Ensor wrote: [I think Ensor was quoting Tony Duell.] >> > I 'only' have the HP150-II. It's in a larger case, with a 12" >> >CRT, an optional touchscreen (which is fitted on mine).... >> > So you don't have to vacuum out the LED/sensor array every few weeks... Nice. A couple things about this. One, the optional touchscreen for the 150-II doesn't have the array of holes, it has a smooth piece of IR-transparent plastic over the LEDs and sensors. So, you don't have to vacuum out the LED/sensor array, just wipe it off. Two, it took about a year or two for 150A/B in an office environment to clog up. We had them under maintenance and the HP guy came out with tools that sucked and blew, and with little clear plastic covers of about 2-3mm thickness to sit over the bottom row of holes. These matched the curve of the CRT and were molded with two pegs poking down to sit in a couple of the LED/sensor holes. Having seen what was done, I pestered the HP field service guy for another dozen so we could outfit the rest of the 150A/Bs without needing to place service calls. I'm guessing the actual HP part is somewhere between LOOK R at RE and unobtainium now, 20 years later. > One Of These Days, I'm going to make some covers for those holes on my 150A's > from all that vinyl packaging I've had to buy just to (try to) get the stuff > inside them. As you might guess from the above, you can do that. -Frank McConnell From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue May 1 19:29:02 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:29:02 -0700 Subject: Heathkit ET3400 Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Can somone point me to scans of the manuals and schematics for the Heathkit trainer ET3400A? Thanks, Billy From evan at snarc.net Tue May 1 20:02:11 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:02:11 -0400 Subject: test - ignore Message-ID: <000001c78c55$850e8aa0$6401a8c0@evan> Just a test. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 1 21:58:12 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 21:58:12 -0500 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <4637D906.8010902@gmail.com> References: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> <20070501165258.E83814@shell.lmi.net> <4637D906.8010902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4637FE44.30308@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >>> (When they start packaging food in those blankin' soddin' vinyl >>> packages, I >>> expect to start hearing of people starving to death for being unable >>> to open them.) >> >> ~25 years ago, a student in the lab managed to get the mylar out of it's >> jacket of a 5.25" diskette. Somebody asked her, "how come you didn't >> realize that something was wrong when it was so hard to take apart?" >> She replied, "it's just about as hard to open a bag of potato chips" > > I once got a similar explanation from someone who forced a second 3.5" > floopy into a drive. "It wasn't that hard." I repaired a PeeCee awhile back that belonged to a child-care center, used by kids 5-10 years old. It kept throwing random reboots, and it turned out it was overheating. There were 12 or 15 CDs in the case, some on top of the CD drive and several that had fallen down behind it. One was almost flush against the PSU's inside vent grille. The kids had been trying to load disks and shoving them between the drive bezel and the drive-bay cover plate above it. Doc From hachti at hachti.de Tue May 1 22:36:17 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 05:36:17 +0200 Subject: PDP8/E schematics Message-ID: <46380731.2090802@hachti.de> Hi folks, I am looking for docs about my PDP8/E CPU. I found a maintainance manual ("volume 1" of ???) on bitsavers. But no schematic. So, who knows what documents I need and where to get them? Best wishes, Philipp :-) From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Tue May 1 22:39:07 2007 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (paulrsm at buckeye-express.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:39:07 -0700 Subject: Hawthorne 68000 SBC Message-ID: <20070501203907.9258E69@resin10.mta.everyone.net> Rich, nice job with the Hawthorne SBC page. I have one request: please provide not just disk images, but a ZIP archive containing the files from the disks. I also encourage you to scan and post any Hawthorne articles from The Computer Journal. In return, I have an issue (or issues) of the 68-KNEWS newsletter. I won't be back home for a few weeks, but when I find them they are yours. -- Paul Santa-Maria From wayne.smith at charter.net Tue May 1 23:18:24 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:18:24 -0700 Subject: Bandai Pippin aka Atmark In-Reply-To: <200704301701.l3UH0nOl068020@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00a201c78c70$f08803e0$6701a8c0@Wayne> Does anyone on the list own a Bandai Pippin - marketed in the UK and Japan as the "Atmark"? As owners of this Apple Power PC-powered box are well aware, software (mostly games and edutainment stuff) is difficult to come by, and when it appears on Ebay, often goes for stratospheric prices. For example: http://cgi.ebay.com/Bungie-Super-Marathon-for-Pippin-world-mark_W0QQitem Z150114489326QQihZ005QQcategoryZ62053QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem So, I am looking for Pippin owners who might have software to exchange. Here is a list of what I have: @World TV Works @World Basics @World Registration @World Browser Compton's Encyclopedia Racing Days Mr. Potato Head ("award winning") Home Improvement 1-2-3 (Home Depot) Ugoku Burotsuku (Japanese - "moving blocks") Fortullia (Japanese - "fortune teller") Victorian Park (Japanese) -W From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed May 2 00:03:17 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:03:17 -0700 Subject: PDP8/E schematics In-Reply-To: <46380731.2090802@hachti.de> References: <46380731.2090802@hachti.de> Message-ID: <200705012203.17679.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 01 May 2007 20:36, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I am looking for docs about my PDP8/E CPU. > I found a maintainance manual ("volume 1" of ???) on bitsavers. > But no schematic. > > So, who knows what documents I need and where to get them? Try: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 1 06:37:10 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 07:37:10 -0400 Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving Message-ID: <0JHD00A3Y1IV7LN3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Goofy question about "industrial" archiving > From: "Billy Pettit" > Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:37:19 -0700 > To: > > >Chris M wrote: > Just curious how, or even if, old design drawings and >such were preserved in the old days. I could barely >venture a guess as to when the first optical recording >drives became "useful", all I remember is a friend >obtaining one of the first (locally) cd players for >his auto in ~the summer of '87. I was in contact with >a few of the people who were involved w/the Mindset >computer, and had hoped I would obtain info on the >custom vlsi chips it used, in any form of course. This >just lead me to ponder when this stuff started >*appearing* on cd's and such. > Can anyone name the different optical CD formats that >modern readers can't work with? I know there must be a few... > >------------- > >Billy answers: > >There are two parts to your question. The first is how old design drawings >were preserved. In all the companies I have worked for in the last 45 >years, the drawings were destroyed. Some individual copies survived. And >patent applications remain. But all design drawings were destroyed as a >matter of policy. That way there was no way support obligation coming up >long after it was cost effective. And it makes patent challenges difficult, >especially prior art arguments. > >Even today, most of the design archives where I work have a very limited >life time. Industrial archives are varied depending on product and lifetime of the product. Most places I've been 7 years seems to be the upper limit. There are exceptions, Military and aerospace in particular. Those guys have to by contract maintain complete archive and production sets for the operating life of the program. For example the Shuttle program is 30 years old and still going and the contractors are required to keep everything until 10 years after the last flight. Thats a lot of paper, blue line, Vellum, Mylar, tapes, floppies and even CDs. If the program requires ongoing material sourcing as in spares or parts to make a new airframe those drawings must be useable as well as production methods may be described in those documents. I will not address the second question on CDs. Allison From gods69 at club-internet.fr Tue May 1 07:02:51 2007 From: gods69 at club-internet.fr (Carlos Serra) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 14:02:51 +0200 Subject: sinclair spectrum ULA In-Reply-To: 5.1.1.6.0.20030604080555.03c2ac78@pop.freeserve.net Message-ID: <20070501140046.563C.GODS69@club-internet.fr> Hi Do you still have those 6C001E-7 chips to sell ? Thanks -- Carlos Serra From cc at corti-net.de Wed May 2 05:17:33 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:17:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B Message-ID: Hi, we've cleaned and powered up our TI 960B at our museum, it seems to be working fine. I've entered a small test program to test the basic parts: 1000 7007 0000 NOP 1002 7007 0000 NOP 1004 7082 1000 B @1000 Both single step and run mode work. But that's all we are able to do at the moment because there is no documentation available for the 960B. The machine (from 1975) has 8k of MOS memory, and only few CRU interfaces, one TT/EIA (TT), one data interface (DI) (I think it's a digital I/O board) and one timer interface (TI). So we need at least the programmer's guides for the TT and DI, maybe the service manuals for the entire machine. Is there a chance to find them somewhere? Christian From grant at stockly.com Wed May 2 11:35:59 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 08:35:59 -0800 Subject: Nice ad Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070502083325.03aa5a10@pop.1and1.com> 190107136286 Told him about the timeline of CP/M and DOS and he gave me a very rude response. So he got a "Inappropriate or excessive use of terms not relevant to the item " from me. Maybe otheres should point out the facts. : ) It really ticks me off when people try to take advantage of others... Grant From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed May 2 11:37:42 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:37:42 +0200 Subject: TNIX In-Reply-To: <463636F0.2050703@bitsavers.org> References: <463636F0.2050703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20070502183742.40bb0553@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:35:28 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > FWIW, there was a V7 based system called TNIX which shipped on the > 8560 development systems (11/23 and 11/73 based). Would be nice to > find the 8" diag and release floppies for this (I have a couple of > them). I have one of those machines along a 6800 and 68000 in circuit emulator. The system is working and bootable, but it needs a fsck. fsck is a stand alone utility and I didn't get any software with the machine, except what was instaled on the 8" HDD. It would be really nice to get the software and make the machine usable again. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 12:46:36 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 10:46:36 -0700 Subject: PDP8/E schematics Message-ID: <4638CE7C.1010807@bitsavers.org> > So, who knows what documents I need and where to get them? Clean copies of 8/E schematics are difficult to find. I'll go through the scans that I have to try to find a good set. Most of the omnibus interface schems are on line under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/omnibus From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 13:01:08 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:01:08 -0700 Subject: TNIX Message-ID: <4638D1E4.7080100@bitsavers.org> > fsck is a stand > alone utility and I didn't get any software with the machine, except > what was instaled on the 8" HDD. It would be really nice to get the > software and make the machine usable again. My machines are in the same state, which is why I asked about the stand-alone utilities. The only standard DEC card was the CPU. All of the rest was custom to Tek. The version of the box with 5" winchester uses a sasi host adapter, so in theory it should be possible to image the disc. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed May 2 13:03:50 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 13:03:50 -0500 Subject: Offer: old Linpack manual Message-ID: <51ea77730705021103w3cbc557bp1a55d4e8a9236a2e@mail.gmail.com> Need to start paring down my book collection/pile! Will send this to whoever wants it for the cost of shipping. "Linpack Users' Guide" from 1979. ISBN 0-89871-172-X. Authors Dongarra, Bunch, Moler, Stewart. It's in good shape but has some writing on the first page. Appears to be a second printing. Preface contains a nice list of Linpack test sites and the machines in use, including the CDC Cyber 175 at NASA, and a Honeywell 6080 at Bell Labs. I'm in 60074 zip, will send book rate or whatever you like. -- jht From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 13:07:38 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:07:38 -0700 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B Message-ID: <4638D36A.2030105@bitsavers.org> > So we need at least the programmer's > guides for the TT and DI I thought they were the same boards as used in the 980B I'll check to see if I've put scans for the 980 versions on line. At least some of the 980 documentation refers to 960/980 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 13:19:19 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:19:19 -0700 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B Message-ID: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> I just checked the CHM archives, and we have a pretty complete set of 960B hardware docs. I'll see about getting it scanned. From jrr at flippers.com Wed May 2 11:26:57 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 09:26:57 -0700 Subject: Heathkit ET3400 In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: At 5:29 PM -0700 5/1/07, Billy Pettit wrote: >Can somone point me to scans of the manuals and schematics for the Heathkit >trainer ET3400A? > >Thanks, >Billy They turn up from time to time on eBay. I have a set that I am planning to scan - some day... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed May 2 13:44:01 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 14:44:01 -0400 Subject: Heathkit ET3400 In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070502144321.03da9940@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Robertson may have mentioned these words: >At 5:29 PM -0700 5/1/07, Billy Pettit wrote: >>Can somone point me to scans of the manuals and schematics for the Heathkit >>trainer ET3400A? >> >>Thanks, >>Billy > >They turn up from time to time on eBay. I have a set that I am planning to >scan - some day... I also just stumbled across the set of manuals for mine just the other day... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed May 2 14:39:38 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 14:39:38 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ET3400 In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <200705021844.l42IitYq014977@keith.ezwind.net> > >Can somone point me to scans of the manuals and schematics for the Heathkit > >trainer ET3400A? > > > >Thanks, > >Billy I've got some of the ET-3400 material up on my site. I'd also check the sebhc archive (www.sebhc.org) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 2 13:50:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 13:50:21 -0500 Subject: Nice ad In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070502083325.03aa5a10@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070502083325.03aa5a10@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4638DD6D.6090904@yahoo.co.uk> Grant Stockly wrote: > 190107136286 > > Told him about the timeline of CP/M and DOS and he gave me a very rude > response. So he got a "Inappropriate or excessive use of terms not > relevant to the item " from me. > > Maybe otheres should point out the facts. : ) Credit for the "LCD screens did not exist" line, too :-) From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 2 14:33:04 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <176952.9247.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > I just checked the CHM archives, and we have a > pretty complete > set of 960B hardware docs. I'll see about getting it > scanned. I would also be interested in this. I also have a 980B, which has been languishing for lack of documentation. --Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 2 14:33:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Minor Earthquake in Kent5 In-Reply-To: <1177948168.10270.19.camel@gjcp-desktop> References: <200704291705.l3TH3UMB050060@dewey.classiccmp.org> <841F9BA3-E2AD-4E9B-B2AD-53630A7A2434@microspot.co.uk> <1177888350.6869.0.camel@elric> <463607F0.8010202@jetnet.ab.ca> <4635FE1E.3010905@gmail.com> <1177948168.10270.19.camel@gjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <20070502122812.I24351@shell.lmi.net> We just (12:20) had a tiny one in Oakland. I'll guess about 3.0 USGS thinks that it was about a mile N of the Macarthur mess. Whether or not you notice the tiny ones is largely a function of how tall your collection is piled. (A 5150 PC Tech manual on top of one of the bookcases fell) From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 2 14:34:30 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <10653.18508.qm@web82613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > I just checked the CHM archives, and we have a > pretty complete > set of 960B hardware docs. I'll see about getting it > scanned. Oops, I see you referenced the 960B, not the 980B. I'm looking for a set of maintenance prints for a 980B. --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 2 14:44:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:44:47 -0400 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <176952.9247.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> <176952.9247.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/2/07, William Maddox wrote: > > --- Al Kossow wrote: > > > I just checked the CHM archives, and we have a > > pretty complete > > set of 960B hardware docs. I'll see about getting it > > scanned. > > I would also be interested in this. I also have > a 980B, which has been languishing for lack of > documentation. They're all coming out of the woodwork now, aren't they? I have one, too, and could use some docs. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 2 14:53:13 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 14:53:13 -0500 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B References: <10653.18508.qm@web82613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003f01c78cf3$876e8fe0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Bill wrote... > Oops, I see you referenced the 960B, not the 980B. > I'm looking for a set of maintenance prints for a > 980B. I have a TI 990 to restore at some point too... several machines in front of it though :\ Jay From jzg22 at drexel.edu Wed May 2 16:06:41 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 17:06:41 -0400 Subject: Big pile of VAX documentation to be disposed In-Reply-To: <200705021701.l42H0RfG097377@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705021701.l42H0RfG097377@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4638FD61.9040301@drexel.edu> There is a large pile of VAX and other documentation waiting for disposal on the 7th floor of Disque Hall at Drexel University in Philadelphia. Disque hall is located on the former 32nd street between market and chestnut streets, its the tall(~10 floors)) brick building. Pretty much everything paper, and a working Phaser 370? printer (missing its paper tray and missing the centronics->microcentronics adapter but otherwise working) is free for the taking. This documentation originally went along with the VAX machine which someone from the list rescued from there about 2 years ago when it was being disposed. Jonathan Gevaryahu jzg22 at drexel.edu From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 16:22:43 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 14:22:43 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. Message-ID: <46390123.1070001@bitsavers.org> > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/selectric_term1.jpg Found one in the CHM collection today. It is a "Datel 30". There are a few mentions of it on the web, mostly saying it was a light-duty device that broke a lot. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed May 2 17:20:05 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:20:05 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Al Kossow wrote: > Found one in the CHM collection today. It is a "Datel 30". There are a few mentions of it on the web, mostly saying it was a light-duty device that broke a lot. ------------------------------- Billy asks: Wasn't Datel one of the first to offer timeshare services? Sort of a precursor to the Internet? I remember Datel advertising on TV about making stock market transactions in your office. The model 33 was not the most popular device for that environment. Billy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 17:27:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 23:27:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: TNIX In-Reply-To: <4638D1E4.7080100@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at May 2, 7 11:01:08 am Message-ID: > > > fsck is a stand > > alone utility and I didn't get any software with the machine, except > > what was instaled on the 8" HDD. It would be really nice to get the > > software and make the machine usable again. > > My machines are in the same state, which is why I asked about the stand-alone It is possible I have them, I will ahve to check. I have 2 of these machines, one with an 11/03 processor and dual floppy drives running whatever the single-taksing OS was called, and one with a 11/23 procesor and a (8") hard drive running TNIX. I know I got some disks with them, but I can't erememebr if any were for TNIX > utilities. The only standard DEC card was the CPU. All of the rest was custom > to Tek. The version of the box with 5" winchester uses a sasi host adapter, so > in theory it should be possible to image the disc. The 8" winchester machines have a Micropolis 1203 drive with the standard Micropolis controller board on top. The host interface for that is not SASI (AFAIK), but it is documented in the Micropolis documentation. So it may be possible ot image that drive too. -tony From pcw at mesanet.com Wed May 2 18:15:25 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 16:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy emulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there anyone with experience doing hardware floppy emulation here? I may have a project that could use some paid expertise in this area... Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 2 18:23:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 17:23:26 -0600 Subject: Big pile of VAX documentation to be disposed In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 02 May 2007 17:06:41 -0400. <4638FD61.9040301@drexel.edu> Message-ID: In article <4638FD61.9040301 at drexel.edu>, Jonathan Gevaryahu writes: > There is a large pile of VAX and other documentation waiting for > disposal on the 7th floor of Disque Hall at Drexel University in > Philadelphia. Is there anything graphics related? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From onymouse at garlic.com Wed May 2 08:47:15 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 06:47:15 -0700 Subject: Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question) In-Reply-To: <200705020023.l420NruJ002413@lots.reanimators.org> References: <011401c787a5$27835320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <463613A4.4090000@garlic.com> <200705020023.l420NruJ002413@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <46389663.3080502@garlic.com> Frank McConnell wrote: > jd wrote: > >> Ensor wrote: >> > > [I think Ensor was quoting Tony Duell.] > > >>> > I 'only' have the HP150-II. It's in a larger case, with a 12" >>> >CRT, an optional touchscreen (which is fitted on mine).... >>> >>> >> So you don't have to vacuum out the LED/sensor array every few weeks... Nice. >> > > A couple things about this. > > One, the optional touchscreen for the 150-II doesn't have the array of > holes, it has a smooth piece of IR-transparent plastic over the LEDs > and sensors. So, you don't have to vacuum out the LED/sensor array, > just wipe it off. > > It's cool, ain't it? > Two, it took about a year or two for 150A/B in an office environment > to clog up. > Three months max in the office and two years in a class 1000 cleanroom. Sucking and blowing was not good enough to clean the units out; they had to be disassembled and cleaned out with wipes and swabs. The 150C's had to be wiped off every few weeks or the touch feature would get erratic. And cleaned the internal printer without chipping the print head. Ruined a few silent 700s learning how... Of course, when they were opened for cleaning, we would just clean the whole thing out and drop the really stubbornly dirty stuff in the vapor degreaser. Better than zapping it with compressed gas. I suppose it's better in areas where the water isn't as hard and doesn't turn clothes washers into clothes grinders. >> One Of These Days, I'm going to make some covers for those holes on my 150A's >> from all that vinyl packaging I've had to buy just to (try to) get the stuff >> inside them. >> > > As you might guess from the above, you can do that. > > Yep, we figured that out, eventually. Used acetate back then. -- jd Do not try to solve all life's problems at once -- learn to dread each day as it comes. -- Donald Kaul From hachti at hachti.de Wed May 2 19:19:59 2007 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 02:19:59 +0200 Subject: PDP8/E schematics In-Reply-To: <4638CE7C.1010807@bitsavers.org> References: <4638CE7C.1010807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46392AAF.8090706@hachti.de> Hi, Al Kossow wrote: > > So, who knows what documents I need and where to get them? > > Clean copies of 8/E schematics are difficult to find. I'll go through > the scans that I have to try to find a good set. I know... But I don't give up the hope to find.... :-) > > Most of the omnibus interface schems are on line under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/omnibus Ah, cool, thanks. At the moment I am looking for the CPU schematics to repair my CPU which behaves strangely. Regards, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 2 20:11:20 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 21:11:20 -0400 Subject: Hawthorne 68000 SBC In-Reply-To: <20070501203907.9258E69@resin10.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: I have a ZIP file somewhere here with all of the files in it. Of course, that won't include the boot sector. I don't have many TCJ issues, and it seems that I'm missing Issue #30 which has some Hawthorne stuff in it. If anyone can give me a list of the issues I'll try to match them up with my stock and scan what I have. Thanks (in advance) for the 68-KNEWS copies. I will most certainly post them. Also, if you have any software, let's get an archive going. ...I found the zip file and I posted it this evening. Rich On 5/1/07 11:39 PM, "paulrsm at buckeye-express.com" wrote: > Rich, nice job with the Hawthorne SBC page. > > I have one request: please provide not just disk images, > but a ZIP archive containing the files from the disks. > > I also encourage you to scan and post any Hawthorne > articles from The Computer Journal. > > In return, I have an issue (or issues) of the 68-KNEWS > newsletter. I won't be back home for a few weeks, but > when I find them they are yours. > > -- > Paul Santa-Maria Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed May 2 20:16:40 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:16:40 -0700 Subject: Press request (South Florida) from my inbox Message-ID: <033801c78d20$b50f09c0$6501a8c0@NFORCE4> I got the following email earlier today: --- Hi, I'm a writer from the South Florida Sun-Sentinel working on a story about people who collect vintage computers. I'm looking to interview people from the South Florida area (Broward County especially, which includes Fort Lauderdale) and was wondering if you had any such people are your members and if you could ask them to contact me ASAP. [...] Thanks, Jamie Malernee Staff Writer South Florida Sun-Sentinel 954-356-4849 --- Jamie is looking specifically for collectors in the South Florida area to "localize" the story. Others have already been interviewed. Please give a call if you're interested! Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums From djg at pdp8.net Wed May 2 21:20:48 2007 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 22:20:48 -0400 Subject: PDP8/E schematics Message-ID: <200705030220.l432Km625137@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> >> I am looking for docs about my PDP8/E CPU. >> I found a maintainance manual ("volume 1" of ???) on bitsavers. >> But no schematic. >> >> So, who knows what documents I need and where to get them? > http://www.pdp8.net/query_docs/query.shtml Either browse the list or search on the card # >Try: > >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/ Actually this directory is probably the right one http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/omnibus/ >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 2 21:23:47 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 22:23:47 -0400 Subject: RSX-11 In-Reply-To: References: <6ce9428e28605192ddc31b4dfc46446f@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <463947B3.6030905@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:55 PM -0700 4/30/07, Scott Quinn wrote: > >> but somewhat cryptically also >> >> "EMULATOR shall mean software owned by Digital Equipment Corporation >> that emulates the operation of a PDP-11 processor and allows PDP-11 >> programs and operating systems to run on non-PDP-11 systems. >> >> 2 LICENSE GRANT >> >> MENTEC grants to CUSTOMER a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free >> license under MENTEC's INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS to use and copy >> the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY solely for personal, non-commercial uses in >> conjunction with the EMULATOR." >> >> So, in short, is this only valid for emulators in which DEC or it's >> successors in interest (HP?) own the copyright, or is it only valid >> for systems where DEC or (...) hold RTU licenses for a PDP-11 >> emulator on? If the prior, what is the connection to SIMH? If it is >> valid for currently obtainable emulators and (as it seems to at face >> value) include RSX-11, why no RSX-11 images? I suppose RSTS/E is the >> easy way out, (provided licensing is good), but RSX-11 has the >> advantages of some commonality with VMS (DCL). > > > Bob Supnik has stated that SIMH is still covered by this license, he > was a VP with DEC at the time he arranged for it. Furthermore all > indications from Mentec in the past have been that this is true. Based > on the inquiries I made about a month ago nothing has changed from the > Hobbyist point of view. > > At least one version of RSX-11M has been available for use under SIMH > in the past. Jerome Fine replies: Since my information is ONLY in respect of RT-11, how it applies to RSX-11 is not known. However, whenever the license for PDP-11 operating systems mentions RSX-11 (and a specific version at that, including all prior versions), V05.03 of RT-11 and all prior versions of RT-11 are also mentioned. Thus by inference, what applies to RT-11 may also apply to RSX-11 as well. What is VERY different about RSX-11 and RT-11 is that V05.03 of RT-11 (specifically the binary distribution) has been available via download from a number of sites for many years along with at least one site which also includes all prior versions (or at least as many different versions as could reasonably be found and verified to likely be as close as possible to the actual DEC release) of RT-11. I can't remember exactly any more, but at least 10 prior versions of RT-11 (prior to V05.03 from 1985) are available. There were also 11 later versions of RT-11 includIng: V05.04 V05.04A V05.04B v05.04C V05.04D V05.04E V05.04F V05.04G V05.05 V05.06 V05.07 On the other hand, it was initially VERY difficult, almost impossible, to obtain a copy of the allowed RSX-11 distribution and even at present this situation continues. Since there has, to my knowledge, been continuous access to V05.03 of RT-11 and the prior versions for over 5 years ever since Megan Gentry specifically made V05.03 available as a single downloadable image file, it seems extremely likely that Mentec has accepted that SIMH is totally acceptable as the DEC owned emulator even if there has been no official written confirmation of that status by Mentec. At least one acceptable version of RSTS/E also seems to be available, but I have no details. If you wish to know the details of the link for the file to be downloaded for the RT-11 versions: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/RT11DV10.ISO.zip Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 2 23:56:24 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 21:56:24 -0700 Subject: Floppy emulators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Check out Eric Ruthfus' SVD on his web page www.thesvd.com. Mention that it was me that pointed you to him. I've not talked with him for some time. Dwight >From: "Peter C. Wallace" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Floppy emulators >Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 16:15:25 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Is there anyone with experience doing hardware floppy emulation here? >I may have a project that could use some paid expertise in this area... > > > > > >Peter Wallace >Mesa Electronics _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From rickb at bensene.com Thu May 3 00:52:54 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 22:52:54 -0700 Subject: TNIX (Micropolis 1203 and "Board Bucket" systems) In-Reply-To: References: <4638D1E4.7080100@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at May 2, 7 11:01:08 am Message-ID: Tony wrote: > > The 8" winchester machines have a Micropolis 1203 drive with > the standard Micropolis controller board on top. The host > interface for that is not SASI (AFAIK), but it is documented > in the Micropolis documentation. So it may be possible ot > image that drive too. > Back in the day, I used to buy these drives at the Tektronix Country Store for pretty cheap...something like $35 or so. This was in the day when 5 1/4" ST-506 interface har disk drives were EXPENSIVE. In those days, I built my own computers, based on an internal Tektronix "development" platform called the "Board Bucket". These were a quite diverse, multi-CPU platform based on a common bus that had various CPU boards (6800, 6809, Z-80), and variou I/O boards (floppy interface, serial-parallel I/O board, RAM boards (dynamic and static), ROM boards (using 2708's), and even later things like ROM burners, Video Boards (I designed one based on the TI Graphics Chip used in the TI 9900 home computer), Modem boards (Bell 103), and various other custom boards. There was a "blank" prototyping board available for these systems. I did build an interface board for a Micropolis 1203, so I could use a hard disk on the "FLEX" 6809-based operating system. It was a pretty trivial parallel interface, with, IIRC, a line that controlled reading or writing from the onboard controller, and a "data or status/command" signal that told the controller where you are tell the controller whather you are reading or writing control commands, or data. It was an 8-bit data interface, parallel, with a strobe signal to read/write data to/from the controller. There were a couple of status signals that also came out to tell the computer the whether data was ready to be strobed out or pushed in. This was a long time ago, so my memory is hazy. The one thing that I do remember is that there was a weird little jumper block on the controller board that controlled something to do with the geometry of the disk as presented by the controller. It could specify the size of a sector...essentially, the drive could have a selection of sector sizes. As I remember, to get the 256-byte sectors that the FLEX operating system wanted, I had to figure out how to re-wire this jumper, as by default in the 8560's that these drives were used in, the sector size was either 512 or 1024 bytes/sector. Other than these drives being rather noisy, and requiring quite a bit of power, they were rock solid reliable, and very easy to interface to. They were NOT tolerant to shock, though. Bump the drive too hard while it was running, and they'd crash pretty easily. I wrote a driver for FLEX that made this drive appear as a number of logical drives, because FLEX had a limitation as to the number of sectors that a drive could have. It was pretty cool to have a system that had a "big" (I think that these were 30 Megabyte drives) hard disk on it in the day when most folks' machines were ucky to have a pair of 8" or 5 1/4" floppy drives. >From my recollection, "talking" to the Micropolis 1203 controller was very straight forward, and the controller was pretty smart, providing commands for low-level formatting the drive, standard "read" and "write" sector commands, as well as extended read/write commands that would read/write the sector header information, pretty robust status reporting, and pretty robust status/error reporting. It was similar to SASI, but "simpler", and as I recall it took me virtually no time at all to get one of the drives up and running on my system. I'm sure that if someone can find the technical docs for the 1203, it'd be a rather simple proposition to build a simple interface for a PC or even a small microcontroller) that could allow a drive to be imaged. My "system" also had two DSDD 5 1/4" floppy drives, and a "RAM Disk" that I made out of a slightly modified 64K RAM board that had a 256-byte "window" into the address space, and a parallel port that would select which "sector" would appear. Later, I bumped the capacity of the board by using 64K DRAMs instead of the stock 16K DRAM chips, so I had a 256K RAMDisk (really fast). Later, I built a SASI (purely I/O driven, no DMA) interface that I could hook up 5 1/4" hard disk drives to, using an early Xebec SASI to "ST-506" controller. I bought a very early Tandon 5MB 5 1/4" full-height ST-506 drive, and got it running on the system. I still have a number of the two types of Board Bucket chassis (nice aluminum chassis with a backplane board in the bottom, with card guides) ...there was one with just a backplane, and an external power supply that connected to the chassis by banana plugs. There was also a smaller backplane all self-contained with its own power supply. There was a ROM monitor that talked through one of the serial/parallel I/O boards (two serial ports and two parallel (Motorola 6821's, I believe) ports. The CPU boards varied a bit...some had ROM on board for the monitor, and some you had to put in a plug-in ROM board to host the monitor code. Some CPU's had TIL-311 displays on them to display the address and data bus, with a single step button that would allow you to step through the code, as in a simple front-panel, though not possible to load data or address. That was one board (a 6800-based board) as I recall that could be used for in-circuit emulation. I've also got a bunch of the boards, including RAM, ROM, I/O, floppy, my homebrewed SASI interface, the prototype of the video board and a "production" version (which included a real-time clock chip also), a couple of Bell 103 modems, a ROM blaster (I think it could program everything from 2708's through 2764's) and maybe even a few blank prototype boards. These things were cheap, because you could buy the bare boards through Tektronix Engineering Stock for <$20 or so, and buy the parts to stuff them at Tek's cost plus 5%, and put together some pretty capable systems for very little (compared to "commercial" minicomputers like Altair/IMSAI/Processor Technology/Tandy-Radio Shack/Digital Group/Polymorphic Systems/Smoke Signal Broadcasting, and SWTPC [among many others]) money. I even could get the folks on one of the flow-solder lines to run my stuff boards through the flow-solder machine, which really sped things up as opposed to hand-soldering everything, which I also did a lot of. I even built a "ROM" board using Dallas Semiconductor 32Kx8 NVRAMs for loading up dedicated applications into, and used a number of these machines for a very early home automation system that could control lighting (X-10), security system, weather monitoring (through a hacked Heathkit weather station), a voice-response (using a Votrax Chip, and a DTMF decoder IC hacked into one of the modem boards) system that one could use to remotely dial-in and check status of the system and command things to happen) as well as an IR interface that could command devices like the TV, VCR, Cable TV box, etc. I have a complete 6908-based system that I use from time to time for various little projects. It works great to this day. I sure had a lot of cheap fun (and great learning experiences) from those machines back in those days (early 1980's as I recall). I also have some old Tektronix code that I believe works under Utek that provides assemblers for the 6800 and 6809. The ROM monitor has a means by which the 2nd serial port on the I/O board could be hooked up to a "host" computer, and assembled absolute code from the assembler could be downloaded in to RAM pretty easily. Sorry to wander off-topic, but figured that there might be some interest in these old internal Tektronix "toys". Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Wed May 2 23:20:45 2007 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 21:20:45 -0700 Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C59F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: Also came in an APL version. Lee Courtney Product Line Manager - Linux for Consumer Devices Wind River 500 Wind River Way Alameda, California 94501 Office: 510-749-2763 Cell: 650-704-3934 Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Billy Pettit > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:20 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Help to identify a Selectric based terminal. > > Al Kossow wrote: > > > > Found one in the CHM collection today. > > It is a "Datel 30". There are a few mentions of it on the > web, mostly saying it was a light-duty device that broke a lot. > > > ------------------------------- > > Billy asks: > > Wasn't Datel one of the first to offer timeshare services? > Sort of a precursor to the Internet? I remember Datel > advertising on TV about making stock market transactions in > your office. > > The model 33 was not the most popular device for that environment. > > Billy > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu May 3 01:35:27 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 23:35:27 -0700 Subject: RSX-11 In-Reply-To: <200705021652.l42GpVDR097241@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705021652.l42GpVDR097241@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <972aa64ef7a940413b8e4e68c9ba8a2f@valleyimplants.com> > Yes, check the licensing info for SIMh and a few others. While PDP-11 > OSs (RT, RSX and RSTS [it may not include all of those]) are made > available > for SIMs it is not for commercial use or operation on real hardware. > The > copyrights are still valid and some of the products are active. > > > Allison > One of my concerns was that the SIMH license seems a bit ambiguous as to whether or not it covers SIMH (and there was no authoritative or semi-authoritative opinions on the SIMH or Mentec websites). I've been e-mailing with someone and they have clarified that, yes, Mentec's correspondance/actions indicate that SIMH is still covered by the "Supnik license" even though it isn't a DEC product). Pity that there isn't an explanation on the SIMH website, but I suppose that Mentec doesn't want to throw money at explanations, and nobody else wants to pontificate in an "official" manner given the current state of the USA. Scott From cc at corti-net.de Thu May 3 03:05:15 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:05:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <4638D36A.2030105@bitsavers.org> References: <4638D36A.2030105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 May 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > I thought they were the same boards as used in the 980B > I'll check to see if I've put scans for the 980 versions > on line. At least some of the 980 documentation refers > to 960/980 I've checked what is online on bitsavers, it seems that the only common board is the DMA interface card. Everything else is completely different. The 960B as a CRU bus (like found in the later 990 and 9900 systems), the 980B has a "standard" parallel I/O bus, so I/O interface cards are not interchangable. Christian From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 3 03:20:04 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:20:04 +0200 Subject: TNIX In-Reply-To: References: <4638D1E4.7080100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20070503102004.03dfe943@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 2 May 2007 23:27:11 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > It is possible I have them, I will ahve to check. [...] > I know I got some disks with them, but I can't erememebr if any were > for TNIX That would be nice, thanks in advance. I already have a spare 11/73 CPU to replace the 11/23 CPU. I think this machine would be a nice exhibit for the next VCFe... Do you know how the 8" floppies are formated? (I have no clue about 8" floppy variants.) My one and only 8" floppy system is a RX02 compatible controler in one of my VAXen. It interfaces to a Shugart SA800 interface for 8" floppies. If the floppies are RX01 compatible (C/H/S=77/1/26, 128 byte/sector) I could use the VAX with the drive from the Tec machine to write images on blank disks. (The RX02 clone supports low level format.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cc at corti-net.de Thu May 3 06:29:21 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:29:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> References: <4638D627.6000107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 May 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > I just checked the CHM archives, and we have a pretty complete > set of 960B hardware docs. I'll see about getting it scanned. That would be great! Christian From charlesmorris at hughes.net Thu May 3 09:19:18 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (charlesmorris at hughes.net) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 14:19:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? Message-ID: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> I've got a PDP-11/23+ with 4 Mb RAM, but only one RL02 and no software except an XXDP pack. Henk Gooijen helpfully made for me a (RT-11) bootable pack that is on the way (if the post offices between Europe and the US don't lose or destroy it). So I definitely want to make a backup copy. Is this possible to do with only one drive? Apparently you can't swap disks back and forth like the old DOS or CP/M systems. Henk thinks creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files but I don't know anything about RT-11. The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". Any thoughts? thanks Charles From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 3 09:40:41 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:40:41 -0400 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> References: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <200705031040.41762.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 03 May 2007 10:19, charlesmorris at hughes.net wrote: > The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, > but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". > > Any thoughts? Assuming that the new disk doesn't have any bad blocks in its bad block table that aren't on the original disk :), my first suggestion would be to write a small PDP11 assembly program to read a bunch of blocks from one pack, and write them out to another pack (with a lot of swapping). It'd be tedious, but you could hand assemble a program (or use macro11 on another system) and enter it in using ODT... but you'd be limited to reading and writing no more than about 55kB at a time, which would mean about 20 pack swaps. The other option I can think of, is that you could change the unit number on one of your RL02's, either by snapping fingers off the ready indicator, or (probably a better idea) sticking small plastic rods or similar into the holes where the fingers go in the ready lamp for the 2nd RL02, and use that. A little bit of googling or "ask-Tony" :) should help you figure out exactly how to trick the drive into being another unit number. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 3 09:49:49 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:49:49 -0400 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> References: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: On 5/3/07, charlesmorris at hughes.net wrote: > I've got a PDP-11/23+ with 4 Mb RAM, but only one RL02 and no software > except an XXDP pack. Henk Gooijen helpfully made for me a (RT-11) > bootable pack that is on the way (if the post offices between Europe > and the US don't lose or destroy it). So I definitely want to make a > backup copy. Sure. > Is this possible to do with only one drive? Apparently you can't swap > disks back and forth like the old DOS or CP/M systems. There certainly is no in-built facility to RT-11 to do a single-disk-swap as there was with many 8-bit micros. I suppose you could write a utility to do a disk copy in 3 swaps, but I am unaware of any such program. > Henk thinks > creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files but I don't know > anything about RT-11. That might work, but I don't think you can use RT-11 to write the system area when fiddling packs like that. If you had a different boot medium, floppy, say, you could treat the RL02 drive as a data volume, then it wouldn't matter. The RL02 just becomes another drive at that point. > The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, > but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". That should be easier to remedy than just about anything else. If you can get a '1' (or '2' or '3') or even a third '0' and modify it, that should work. Alternately, there's probably a way to override the switches from behind, or just unplug the switch board and construct and attach a functional replica that doesn't depend on pre-molded plugs. Another approach would be to pipe the contents of your RT-11 pack to the PC as a backup. VTserver should be able to do this for you. Below is a pointer to the 'readme'. Pay attention to the part about treading lightly around the last cylinder. It can cause problems to overwrite the bad block area. http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Tools/Tapes/Vtserver/ http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Tools/Tapes/Vtserver/vtreadme.html I haven't used vtserver in a long time, but I'm sure there are folks on the list who can share their experiences. -ethan From useddec at gmail.com Thu May 3 10:16:38 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:16:38 -0500 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> References: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <624966d60705030816n18a79846m689e93eb06de8456@mail.gmail.com> I can give you a "1" key or another key if that would help. Paul Anderson On 5/3/07, charlesmorris at hughes.net wrote: > > I've got a PDP-11/23+ with 4 Mb RAM, but only one RL02 and no software > except an XXDP pack. Henk Gooijen helpfully made for me a (RT-11) > bootable pack that is on the way (if the post offices between Europe > and the US don't lose or destroy it). So I definitely want to make a > backup copy. > > Is this possible to do with only one drive? Apparently you can't swap > disks back and forth like the old DOS or CP/M systems. Henk thinks > creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files but I don't know > anything about RT-11. > > The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, > but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". > > Any thoughts? > thanks > Charles > > > From andy.piercy at gmail.com Thu May 3 11:04:09 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 17:04:09 +0100 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? Message-ID: More disk copy questions.. Can you copy an entire disk using the UNIX dd command from a smaller disc to a larger one and retain the capacity of the larger drive? i.e. maybe create a partition on the larger drive which matches the smaller drive? Thanks, Andy. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu May 3 11:22:24 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 11:22:24 -0500 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463A0C40.6020707@mdrconsult.com> Andy Piercy wrote: > More disk copy questions.. > > Can you copy an entire disk using the UNIX dd command from a smaller > disc to > a larger one and retain the capacity of the larger drive? > > i.e. maybe create a partition on the larger drive which matches the smaller > drive? Not without other tools, at least on any OS I work with. dd overwrites the filesystem's index, superblock, etc, so even if the partition is bigger than the filesystem, you can't use it. Doc From dm561 at torfree.net Thu May 3 11:42:40 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:42:40 -0300 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd Message-ID: <01C78D88.EF38E360@MSE_D03> --------Original Messages: From: Doc Shipley Subject: Re: Unix disk copy using dd ? To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <463A0C40.6020707 at mdrconsult.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Andy Piercy wrote: > More disk copy questions.. > > Can you copy an entire disk using the UNIX dd command from a smaller > disc to > a larger one and retain the capacity of the larger drive? > > i.e. maybe create a partition on the larger drive which matches the smaller > drive? Not without other tools, at least on any OS I work with. dd overwrites the filesystem's index, superblock, etc, so even if the partition is bigger than the filesystem, you can't use it. Doc ------------Reply: Assuming you have a third disk or a spare partition on the larger drive, can't you tar the small disk > to a file there and then untar to the final disk/partition? m From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu May 3 12:46:11 2007 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <463A0C40.6020707@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Doc Shipley wrote: > > Can you copy an entire disk using the UNIX dd > command from a smaller > > disc to > > a larger one and retain the capacity of the larger > drive? > > Not without other tools, at least on any OS I > work with. dd > overwrites the filesystem's index, superblock, etc, > so even if the > partition is bigger than the filesystem, you can't > use it. dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to another (identical) one using dd; however the same transfer worked correctly under Linux. -Dave From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 3 09:51:06 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:51:06 +0100 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> References: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <1178203866.11230.0.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-03 at 14:19 +0000, charlesmorris at hughes.net wrote: > I've got a PDP-11/23+ with 4 Mb RAM, but only one RL02 and no software > except an XXDP pack. Henk Gooijen helpfully made for me a (RT-11) > bootable pack that is on the way (if the post offices between Europe > and the US don't lose or destroy it). So I definitely want to make a > backup copy. > > Is this possible to do with only one drive? Apparently you can't swap > disks back and forth like the old DOS or CP/M systems. Henk thinks > creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files but I don't know > anything about RT-11. > > The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, > but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". You could dump it over vtserver (very slow) and copy to the new pack. That's how I got XXDP onto a scratch pack. Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 3 13:01:56 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:01:56 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd In-Reply-To: <01C78D88.EF38E360@MSE_D03> References: <01C78D88.EF38E360@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <463A2394.5060605@gmail.com> M H Stein wrote: > Assuming you have a third disk or a spare partition on the larger drive, > can't you tar the small disk > to a file there and then untar to the final > disk/partition? You're assuming that the small disk the data is coming from contains a file system. And, if it does, it's more efficient to use a pipe instead of a tarfile. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 3 13:06:22 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 14:06:22 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <463A0C40.6020707@mdrconsult.com> <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/3/07, David Comley wrote: > dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics > baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to > transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to > another (identical) one using dd; however the same > transfer worked correctly under Linux. Hmm... that seems odd. I've worked with dd a lot, and it's pretty stupid. It does what you ask it to and pretty much not anything else. Could you have been having issues with the sd driver or with whatever device you were asking dd to copy to/from? It's not tough to get into situations where the device driver is doing things seemingly behind your back because of specifics of the minor number attached to the /dev/whatever device file and the baggage that implies. It's especially important with tape devices (rewind/no rewind, compression, etc.), but it's possible to have issues with using the wrong device name with disks. If I had to guess, the most likely place for a problem would be if the beginning of the device from dd's perspective (its "block 0") didn't translate to physical block 0 on the device due to the driver skipping over some part of the disk (a few blocks, a cylinder, etc) masked off for a disk label region or some other "reserved use". I'm not disputing that you had problems, I'm just trying to come up with a mechanism for how it happened. -ethan From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu May 3 13:13:50 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa Message-ID: Bakersfield, the armpit of California! Also, the location where about 1000 square feet of computer floor tiles are available from this guy: Greg Williams Barry Petroleum ggw at bry.com Concrete filled(!) tiles and support structure. If anyone's interested, contact him directly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 3 13:25:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 14:25:47 -0400 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/3/07, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Concrete filled(!) tiles and support structure. Ow! I thought my steel tiles were heavy (they are ;-) Is this a California Earthquake thing, or did someone just want a solid, solid floor? -ethan From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu May 3 13:35:46 2007 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:35:46 -0500 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have a datacenter in the chicago area built in the last couple of years, with concrete filled tiles. We have one built in the late 80's with steel tiles, we have one originally built in the 60's, with floor redone in the mid 80's, with wood-core tiles...all on the same college campus. -Bob >On 5/3/07, Sellam Ismail wrote: >>Concrete filled(!) tiles and support structure. > >Ow! I thought my steel tiles were heavy (they are ;-) > >Is this a California Earthquake thing, or did someone just want a >solid, solid floor? > >-ethan -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 3 14:01:48 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:01:48 -0400 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463A319C.7050104@gmail.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Bakersfield, the armpit of California! Also, the location where about > 1000 square feet of computer floor tiles are available from this guy: > > Greg Williams > Barry Petroleum > ggw at bry.com > > Concrete filled(!) tiles and support structure. > > If anyone's interested, contact him directly. I soooo with that was closer. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 3 14:05:31 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 12:05:31 -0700 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:35 PM -0500 5/3/07, Bob Brown wrote: >We have a datacenter in the chicago area built in the last couple of >years, with concrete filled tiles. We have one built in the late >80's with steel tiles, we have one originally built in the 60's, >with floor redone in the mid 80's, with wood-core tiles...all on the >same college campus. I wonder if it has something to do with the amount of weight that rolls across a computer room floor these days. We've several of the steel ones that are bowed, in a CR that's only about 6.5 years old. Though I would think Cement tiles would simply crack. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 3 14:02:23 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 20:02:23 +0100 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <200705031040.41762.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4506981.1178201958863.JavaMail.?@fh062.dia.cp.net> <200705031040.41762.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <463A31BF.6050802@dunnington.plus.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 03 May 2007 10:19, charlesmorris at hughes.net wrote: >> The alternative is to take the RL02 from my PDP-8/A and connect it, >> but then I don't have a "1" key, they are both unit "0". > The other option I can think of, is that you could change the unit number > on one of your RL02's, either by snapping fingers off the ready > indicator, or (probably a better idea) sticking small plastic rods or > similar into the holes where the fingers go in the ready lamp for the > 2nd RL02, and use that. I've done that with matchsticks, so I know it works. You just need to know which of the "fingers" on the unit select to emulate. If you can't get a spare "1" indicator, I'll go and look at mine to see where the matchsticks would need to go. I eventually made a whole set of indicators (0...3) out of perspex. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu May 3 14:12:34 2007 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 12:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <845135.80458.qm@web30610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Fully concur with your comments below. After I posted this earlier I though back over what happened and I realized that it's probably not dd's fault but more likely to be some sort of oddball driver issue. I forget the exact symptom of the failure but I think it was along the lines of dd being unable to read enough blocks off the input device despite the math/geometry stuff working out correctly on paper. -Dave --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/3/07, David Comley > wrote: > > dd also seems to have some > implementation-specifics > > baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable > to > > transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to > > another (identical) one using dd; however the same > > transfer worked correctly under Linux. > > Hmm... that seems odd. I've worked with dd a lot, > and it's pretty > stupid. It does what you ask it to and pretty much > not anything else. > Could you have been having issues with the sd > driver or with whatever > device you were asking dd to copy to/from? It's not > tough to get into > situations where the device driver is doing things > seemingly behind > your back because of specifics of the minor number > attached to the > /dev/whatever device file and the baggage that > implies. It's > especially important with tape devices (rewind/no > rewind, compression, > etc.), but it's possible to have issues with using > the wrong device > name with disks. If I had to guess, the most likely > place for a > problem would be if the beginning of the device from > dd's perspective > (its "block 0") didn't translate to physical block 0 > on the device due > to the driver skipping over some part of the disk (a > few blocks, a > cylinder, etc) masked off for a disk label region or > some other > "reserved use". > > I'm not disputing that you had problems, I'm just > trying to come up > with a mechanism for how it happened. > > -ethan > From rcini at optonline.net Thu May 3 14:14:52 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:14:52 -0400 Subject: Hawthorne 68000 SBC In-Reply-To: <20070501203907.9258E69@resin10.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: I did some searching last night and I found my bound copy of TCJ issues 26 - 30 and there were a few Hawthorne articles in it that I'm going to scan. If you know of others, let me know. I have issues 20-30, 50-52 and 78-81. When I found TCJ, it was too early in my collecting career to recognize that I should have purchased the entire series of books...so I have quite a few holes in it. On 5/1/07 11:39 PM, "paulrsm at buckeye-express.com" wrote: > Rich, nice job with the Hawthorne SBC page. > > I have one request: please provide not just disk images, > but a ZIP archive containing the files from the disks. > > I also encourage you to scan and post any Hawthorne > articles from The Computer Journal. > > In return, I have an issue (or issues) of the 68-KNEWS > newsletter. I won't be back home for a few weeks, but > when I find them they are yours. > > -- > Paul Santa-Maria Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 3 14:23:29 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:23:29 -0400 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463A36B1.5030402@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:35 PM -0500 5/3/07, Bob Brown wrote: >> We have a datacenter in the chicago area built in the last couple of >> years, with concrete filled tiles. We have one built in the late 80's >> with steel tiles, we have one originally built in the 60's, with floor >> redone in the mid 80's, with wood-core tiles...all on the same college >> campus. > > I wonder if it has something to do with the amount of weight that rolls > across a computer room floor these days. We've several of the steel > ones that are bowed, in a CR that's only about 6.5 years old. Though I > would think Cement tiles would simply crack. I can verify that it takes quite a lot to crack a cement-filled floor tile. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 3 14:32:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:32:30 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> On May 3, 2007, at 1:46 PM, David Comley wrote: > dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics > baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to > transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to > another (identical) one using dd; however the same > transfer worked correctly under Linux. This is not dd, but the disk device drivers underlying OS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 3 14:33:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:33:12 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06698710-1A94-4FDB-A27C-1B995A4BA82F@neurotica.com> On May 3, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Andy Piercy wrote: > More disk copy questions.. > > Can you copy an entire disk using the UNIX dd command from a > smaller disc to > a larger one and retain the capacity of the larger drive? > > i.e. maybe create a partition on the larger drive which matches the > smaller > drive? Definitely not. dd does not understand filesystems, only bytes and blocks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 3 14:28:29 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:28:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <200705031040.41762.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at May 3, 7 10:40:41 am Message-ID: > The other option I can think of, is that you could change the unit number > on one of your RL02's, either by snapping fingers off the ready > indicator, or (probably a better idea) sticking small plastic rods or > similar into the holes where the fingers go in the ready lamp for the > 2nd RL02, and use that. > > A little bit of googling or "ask-Tony" :) should help you figure out > exactly how to trick the drive into being another unit number. >From what I remember, and you need to the RL printset to check (I will dig mine out if you're serious about wanting to do this), the RL's 'ready' lampholder has 4 internal switch contacts, which are opened/closed by the shape of the top and bottom edges of the 2 side pegs on the lamp cap. In the RL, only 2 of the contacts are used, as a binary encoding of the unit number.Oh yes, there's a fifth cotnact that detects there is a cap in place (and disables the drive if not). I wouldn't mess about with the lamp cpas themsleves, since any modifications are not easily reversed. What I would to is remove the front panel from the drive, remocve the switch/indicator PCB from that and do the changes there. Now, what I can't remember (as I said, I'll check the prints if you're serieous), is whether a closed contact is a '1' or a '0'. If it's the former, then the kludge is easy. Just solder a wire across the least-significant contact, and your drive 0 becomes drive 1. If it's the latter, then either cut the trace ot the least significant contact (so it appears open to the rest of the electronics), or remove the lamp cap, and solder a jumper across the 'cap present' contact, and across the most siginificant drive number conact. Doing it that way has the advantage that it'll be easy to undo the mods when you want to put the PDP8/a back together. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 3 14:20:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:20:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: TNIX (Micropolis 1203 and "Board Bucket" systems) In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at May 2, 7 10:52:54 pm Message-ID: > There was a "blank" prototyping board available for these systems. I > did build an interface board for a Micropolis 1203, so I could use a > hard disk on the "FLEX" 6809-based operating system. It was a pretty > trivial parallel interface, with, IIRC, a line that controlled reading > or writing from the onboard controller, and a "data or status/command" > signal that told the controller where you are tell the controller > whather you are reading or writing control commands, or data. > It was an 8-bit data interface, parallel, with a strobe signal to > read/write data to/from the controller. There were a couple of status There are 2 possible interfaces for the Micropolis 1203. The dare drive has a 50 pin connector, which is somewhat similar in concept to the SMD interface. There's an 8 bit parallel data bus with strobe lines, etc, to do things like head postiioning, and a raw data stream. There was a Micropolis controller board, the same physical size as the drive logic board, that could be scrrwed onto the drive. I think the host connector on that was also 50 pin, and it has the interface you're describing. This controller did the conversion between the 8-bit parallel data to the host and the bitstream to the drive. The Tektronix machine that startyed this thread used that controller (so presuanly it was also common on drives obtained from Tektronix surplus). The PERQ 2T1 (the onterh machine I have which uses this drive) doesn't. It has an ICL-designed 'DIB' (Disk Interface Board) that does the clock recoverry and MFM encoding/decodeing , and makes the host interface similar, but not idetocal to that on the SA4000 (14" WInchester) so that it could link to a PERQ I/O board > Other than these drives being rather noisy, and requiring quite a bit of > power, they were rock solid reliable, and very easy to interface to. I've had to fix a couple of electronic faults on them, particuarly in the head psitiuoner analogue section. The positioner coil drive amplifier is an LM379 (a number forever eteched in my brain), which was desigend as an stereo audio power amplifier. Here it's used a a full-bridge driver in the obvious way. The LM379 has the interesting feature that the bottom end of the output stage for each half of the chip is brought out to a separate pin on the package, and the Micropolis 1203 connects a low value resistor between that pin and gorund so as to be able to measure the positioner coil current (this is one of the feedback terms in the servo system). So most other stereo power amp ICs won't replace it. And the LM379 is very hard to find now. It was used as the deflection amplifier in the Vectrex, and I think other vector-based video games, but that's hardly a suitable source for spares. That chip failed in my PERQ's drive, and I was quoted well over \pounds 100.00 for an (untested!) replacement. AI then raided my junk box and found _one_ spare, which got my PERQ booting again, but what I do next time it failes I don't know. Probably design a replacement using a pair of mono audio amplifier chips. One one edge of the drive logic PCB there's a 34 pin header. THis is for a text box. I designed a version of that (it's pretty simple, a few toggle swtiches,, a few LEDs, and a couple of TTL chips). If the drive's microcotnrolelr detects a fault, said test box will display the error code. Of course you then need the appropraite pages of the service manaul to look up said code. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 3 14:37:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:37:01 -0500 Subject: Talking of floor tiles... Message-ID: <463A39DD.7080001@yahoo.co.uk> We could use such a floor in the UK at Bletchley should anyone have a line on one [1] that might become available. The ICL mainframe's going to have to sit on *something* and we're not quite sure what yet! [1] needs to be vaguely around 4m by 12m, but there's a bit of flexibility either way. I think 30cm high is about the max we can cope with though as we'd like to leave the suspended ceiling in place (and the ICL's I/O cabinets are full height racks) Have asked over on uk.comp.vintage, but I'm not sure how much readership overlap there is between there and here... cheers Jules From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 3 15:09:36 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2007, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Bakersfield, the armpit of California! Also, the location where about > 1000 square feet of computer floor tiles are available from this guy: > > Greg Williams > Barry Petroleum > ggw at bry.com > > Concrete filled(!) tiles and support structure. > > If anyone's interested, contact him directly. I live in Bakersfield and I know where this place is. If anyone wants me to do some local footwork, I'm at your service. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu May 3 15:23:22 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:23:22 -0500 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 3, 2007, at 1:46 PM, David Comley wrote: > >> dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics >> baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to >> transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to >> another (identical) one using dd; however the same >> transfer worked correctly under Linux. > > > This is not dd, but the disk device drivers underlying OS. More specifically, it's the Solaris volume manager, isn't it? I forget the specific incantation, but it is possible to tell Solaris "Forget about it" and treat a disk as a raw resource. It's probably a good thing for most users/workloads, but mostly Sun's volume manager just irritates me. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu May 3 15:28:01 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:28:01 -0500 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd In-Reply-To: <463A2394.5060605@gmail.com> References: <01C78D88.EF38E360@MSE_D03> <463A2394.5060605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <463A45D1.8000009@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > >> Assuming you have a third disk or a spare partition on the larger drive, >> can't you tar the small disk > to a file there and then untar to the >> final >> disk/partition? > > > You're assuming that the small disk the data is coming from contains a > file system. Enering pedant mode, even if the source disk has a filesystem, tar can't grab boot blocks, partition tables, extended attributes, etc. And various tar implementations have other nasty little warts. dd is about the dumbest** command on the planet, which is why I love it. Doc ** as in does what it does, does that thing only, and does that thing Very Fricking Well. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 3 15:57:17 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:57:17 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> On May 3, 2007, at 4:23 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics >>> baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to >>> transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to >>> another (identical) one using dd; however the same >>> transfer worked correctly under Linux. >> This is not dd, but the disk device drivers underlying OS. > > More specifically, it's the Solaris volume manager, isn't it? I > forget the specific incantation, but it is possible to tell Solaris > "Forget about it" and treat a disk as a raw resource. Nope, nothing at all to do with the volume manager. All it does is deal with things like automatically mounting filesystems when they come up, such as when a CDROM is inserted. The issue concerns partitioning and where "data" starts on the disk...and most importantly, whether or not that data includes the block containing the partition table. Traditionally, the "c" partition on a Unix system means "the whole disk" but unfortunately (from what I've seen) that doesn't include the block containing the partition table on some systems. > It's probably a good thing for most users/workloads, but mostly > Sun's volume manager just irritates me. Same here. Edit /etc/vold.conf to make it ignore the stuff you want it to. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu May 3 16:01:52 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:01:52 -0700 Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463A4DC0.7030306@shiresoft.com> David Griffith wrote: > I live in Bakersfield and I know where this place is. If anyone wants me > to do some local footwork, I'm at your service. > Thanks. I've already contacted them and am making arrangements for the tiles. One of the issues is that each tile weighs about 40#! So total weight is going to be interesting! -- TTFN - Guy From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Thu May 3 16:05:48 2007 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:05:48 -0600 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <200705031702.l43H1T2u014160@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705031702.l43H1T2u014160@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <463A4EAC.6000806@rogerwilco.org> [excuse this second copy of my reply; worried that my first went into the Great Bit Bucket In The Sky] Charles said: >I've got a PDP-11/23+ with 4 Mb RAM, but only one RL02 and no software >except an XXDP pack. Henk Gooijen helpfully made for me a (RT-11) >bootable pack that is on the way (if the post offices between Europe >and the US don't lose or destroy it). So I definitely want to make a >backup copy. > >Is this possible to do with only one drive? Apparently you can't swap >disks back and forth like the old DOS or CP/M systems. Henk thinks >creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files but I don't know >anything about RT-11. > You will have very good success using Will Kranz' TU58 emulation on a PC as an intermediate store: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm He has a MSDOS flavor and a Linux flavor. I've used the MSDOS flavor as a way to image RL01s and RL02s for archival on other media (CDROM). Be sure to read his documentation about patching the DD.SYS driver (renaming it to DW.SYS) to allow the emulated TU58 to have the same capacity as your RL02 cartridge. Don't worry, it's not difficult and when I first did this myself I had sub-zero DEC / PDP-11 / RT-11 experience. While fairly slow (it is RS-232 serial, after all), the extra benefit your will enjoy using this method, is that you automatically will have a backup of the installation that Henk made for you and that you no doubt suffered some small expense to get. If you have any more questions about using Will's TU58 emulator, feel free to contact me directly. - Jared From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 3 17:11:27 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer floor tiles available in beautiful and exciting Bakersfield, Californa In-Reply-To: <463A4DC0.7030306@shiresoft.com> References: <463A4DC0.7030306@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2007, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > I live in Bakersfield and I know where this place is. If anyone wants me > > to do some local footwork, I'm at your service. > > Thanks. I've already contacted them and am making arrangements for the > tiles. One of the issues is that each tile weighs about 40#! So total > weight is going to be interesting! A couple years ago I sold some cubicle dividers on Ebay for a local charity. The buyer sent out a tractor-trailer rig to get the 1000 or so pounds of stuff. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 3 17:20:47 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII Message-ID: I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read and installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. The rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint that this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to 24-bit addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" doesn't work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 3 18:58:11 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "May 3, 7 03:20:47 pm" Message-ID: <200705032358.l43NwBrQ011538@floodgap.com> > I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read and > installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. The > rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. > BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint that > this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to 24-bit > addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" doesn't > work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? Which Performa? Those ROMs may be too new for System 6. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From rcini at optonline.net Thu May 3 19:38:09 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 20:38:09 -0400 Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: <200705032358.l43NwBrQ011538@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I use Basilisk for System 7.5.3 and 8.0 machines such as the Quadra 700 and the Mac II series. For System 6, I use Mini vMac. I've used both of these programs on both the PC and an Intel Mac Mini and they work fine. On 5/3/07 7:58 PM, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: >> I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read and >> installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. The >> rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. >> BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint that >> this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to 24-bit >> addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" doesn't >> work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? > > Which Performa? Those ROMs may be too new for System 6. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From rickb at bensene.com Thu May 3 23:33:54 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 21:33:54 -0700 Subject: Micropolis Disk Drives (Was TNIX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony wrote: > There are 2 possible interfaces for the Micropolis 1203. > The bare drive has a 50 pin connector, which is somewhat similar in > concept to the SMD interface. There's an 8 bit parallel data bus with > strobe lines, etc, to do things like head postiioning, and a raw data > stream. > There was a Micropolis controller board, the same physical size as the > drive logic board, that could be scrrwed onto the drive. I think the host > connector on that was also 50 pin, and it has the interface you're > describing. This controller did the conversion between the 8-bit parallel > data to the host and the bitstream to the drive. > The Tektronix machine that started this thread used that controller (so > presumably it was also common on drives obtained from Tektronix surplus). Yes, the drives that I got my hands on (I also had an 8560 at one point running TNIX) all had the Micropolis "controller" board that was positioned over the top of the "bare drive" logic board. I probably had three or four of these things at one time, but over the years, they either died, or I gave them away to friends who had interested once I was able to afford another Micropolis drive, the 5 1/4" ST-506 interface 20MB drive (can't remember the model number). The 8" Micropolis drive was also used in the Tektronix Magnolia...a very early prototype workstation-class machine that used a bitmap display, and was based on Smalltalk as the native operating system. Tek (to my knowledge) never sold any of these machines, but quite a few of them were built as prototypes, and used in various areas of Tek as engineering workstations. The Magnolia was way ahead of its time. Had Tek had the marketing and sales skills to sell this thing as a computer, they could have grabbed the engineering computing workstation market before it even really existed. This was long before Sun or PERQ. It was more in the timeframe of the early Xerox PARC machines. In fact, some of the software engineers that developed the working environment for the Magnolia came from Xerox PARC. The 5 1/4" full-height Micropolis drives were the "standard" drive in the early Tektronix 6130 UTek machines, and I could get them at Tek cost plus 10%, making them reasonably affordable, as Tek purchased them in large volumes. These were interesting drives, because they had two platters in them. One surface had pre-recorded information used by the electronics for accurate head positioning. In the drive as it came from the factory, only two surfaces were used for data (for a total of three surfaces, two data, one servo). However, there was a head, and amplifier for the remaining surface. Each surface held 10 Megabytes, so the standard drive had a capacity of 20MB. There was a little flex circuit board that came out of the sealed HDA that terminated on a 2x4 square pin header that plugged into a socket on the drive logic board. On these drives, the two pins that went to the head/amplifier for the "unused" surface were simply cut off. We found that if we carefully desoldered the disfigured header, and soldered in a full 2x4 header, we could format these drives as 30MB drives, and they worked just fine. Sometimes when low-level formatting, there would be a few flaws on the third surface, but nothing major...resulting in only a slight reduction in capacity. I'm thinking that originally all of the drives were manufactured as 30MB drives, and that those that had some number of flaws in a certain surface would have that surface "disabled" by simply cutting off its pins to the main logic board. Apparently the drive electronics could tell which were "good" surfaces by those which had a signal riding on them, and make it all transparent to the ST-506 interface. A cheap way to make sellable (albeit lower-capacity) drives out of drives that failed QA testing as 30MB drives. These drives were pretty bulletproof, too. I still have one (modified as described above) in my Tektronix 6130, and it ran literally for something like 8 years straight. Then, I got my hands on some Sun machines, and the 6130 was put aside. However, about a year and a half ago, I had occasion to run into the 6130 while unpacking stuff from a storage unit, and I brought it home, hooked it up to a trusty Heathkit H19 terminal, and powered it up. It booted up right away. Not even a fsck required. I even remembered the root password! Did a full "dd" of the disk to /dev/null, and no read errors at all. I think I still have a couple of these drives stored away. I should drag them out and see if they still spin up. Probably could get them to talk to an old Adaptec ACB-4000 SCSI to ST-506 converter, and hook 'em up to a PeeCee with an Adaptec Single-Ended SCSI controller (I have a slew of ISA and PCI-bus HBAs) to see if they still work. I'd bet dimes to donuts that they will work just as good today as they did in the mid-'80's. -Rick From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 4 00:24:10 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 22:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I use Basilisk for System 7.5.3 and 8.0 machines such as the Quadra 700 and > the Mac II series. For System 6, I use Mini vMac. I've used both of these > programs on both the PC and an Intel Mac Mini and they work fine. What OS on a PC do you use? vMac's build system is atrocious. Mini vMac is taking some getting used to. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri May 4 00:53:49 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 06:53:49 +0100 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi All I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. No mention of pdp anything. As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around how RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they could help us poor pdp preservers. Rod From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri May 4 00:56:29 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 22:56:29 -0700 Subject: Magnolia memories was Re: Micropolis Disk Drives (Was TNIX) Message-ID: > The 8" Micropolis drive was also used in the Tektronix Magnolia...a very > early prototype workstation-class machine that used a bitmap display, > and was based on Smalltalk as the native operating system. Tek (to my > knowledge) never sold any of these machines, but quite a few of them > were built as prototypes, and used in various areas of Tek as > engineering workstations. The Magnolia was way ahead of its time. Had > Tek had the marketing and sales skills to sell this thing as a computer, > they could have grabbed the engineering computing workstation market > before it even really existed. This was long before Sun or PERQ. It > was more in the timeframe of the early Xerox PARC machines. In fact, > some of the software engineers that developed the working environment > for the Magnolia came from Xerox PARC. I had my hands on a Tek Magnolia once and even recognized it for what it was. Unfortunitely long before I knew of the list. And long before I realized that you wanted to save the very first models. I didn't get to play with it very long. We got it in with a mother load of Intel (from Intel) about 1992 at 911 NW Hoyt in PDX. the Magnolia looked like an engineering prototype, ugly box with no covers, cables all over.... A little squater than the Xerox 8010s it came in with. What I didn't recognise was the Alto that came in with the group. It was several years later that I saw a picture. It was such a funny Xerox. >From Intel were many of every early development systems, 800, 8000, II, III, & IV. What I would give for that mother load now...... > ago, I had occasion to run into the 6130 while unpacking stuff from a > storage unit, and I brought it home, hooked it up to a trusty Heathkit > H19 terminal, and powered it up. It booted up right away. Not even a > fsck required. I even remembered the root password! Did a full "dd" of > the disk to /dev/null, and no read errors at all. I think I still have > a couple of these drives stored away. One of the few Tek computers I never got my hands on, the 6130. Is there a museum or timeline of Tektronix Computers / test equiipment / video equipment in physical space or on the Web? I don't think Paul Pierce is collecting much Tektronix? Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 4 02:09:49 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 00:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: <200705032358.l43NwBrQ011538@floodgap.com> References: <200705032358.l43NwBrQ011538@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read and > > installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. The > > rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. > > BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint that > > this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to 24-bit > > addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" doesn't > > work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? > > Which Performa? Those ROMs may be too new for System 6. I don't know what sort of machine it came out of. The Mac Plus rom I tried is the vMac.rom commonly used with mini vmac. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri May 4 02:18:31 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:18:31 +0200 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883D9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: donderdag 3 mei 2007 16:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? > > > Henk thinks creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files > > but I don't know anything about RT-11. > > That might work, but I don't think you can use RT-11 to write > the system area when fiddling packs like that. If you had a > different boot medium, floppy, say, you could treat the RL02 > drive as a data volume, then it wouldn't matter. The RL02 > just becomes another drive at that point. > > -ethan Charles did not tell completely what I suggested, but since I am not sure how to do it either, I would like to know ... I also suggested the obvious ones, get the 2nd drive connected and do some kludge work on the READY/UNIT indicator/plug. Since Charles' 11/23+ has 4 Mb of memory ... I remember I once had a visitor (some 5 years go!) who showed me how to use the extra memory (core) in my 11/35 as a "RAM disk". I don't remember which RT11 command(s?) he used, but creating a RAM disk is definitely possible! So, if you copy the system files that you need to run RT11 to the RAM disk *and* you can boot RT11 from that RAM disk, you can use the rest of the RAM disk space to copy a few files from the RL02 disk, swap the RL02 disk and copy the files from RAM to disk, etc. You need the RAM disk for RT11 too, because you can not simply swap the RL02 disk, because RT11 is running from it! Ethan did point that out. So, here is the question I have. After creating the RAM disk, and copying the necessary system files to the RAM disk, is it possible to *boot* from the RAM disk, like .BOOT dev:RT11FB.SYS ? And what would "dev" be? I also would like to know what commands create the RAM disk! thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From andy.piercy at gmail.com Fri May 4 03:39:48 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:39:48 +0100 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: So basically you can only use dd to copy to a disk of the same size. OK so here is the real issue: I have a faulty Unis system disk that is 142 Mb, it had the sticky bumpers issue, now repaired but I want to copy the OS and apps to a second replacement disk, this is a 442 Mb drive. There seems to be a bug with the standalone floppies in that the restore program will not restore dump tapes created and verified in single user mode. bummer! I only have the Unix OS distribution floppies and not the applications. So can I rebuild a working disk by.. 1) Use the floppies to build a new operating system on to the 442Mb drive. 2) Mount the faulty 144 Mb drive with all of the apps etc. 3) Copy using cp, tar, cpio, all of the contents from the faulty drive to the new drive and over write all of the os, will this work? Unix should be in memory so maybe the system wont crash? (would cp -r be the best command here) 4) Remake the root \Unix file from all of the newly copied data / files 5) Reboot the system..... and hope! Any ideas on this approach? Or I could create a second partition and copy the files from the faulty drive to the it? and copy over the contents, but basically the same as above because the app files are all over the file system..... Or how about creating a complete cpio disk image to cart tape? Ta, Andy. On 03/05/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On May 3, 2007, at 4:23 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>> dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics > >>> baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to > >>> transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to > >>> another (identical) one using dd; however the same > >>> transfer worked correctly under Linux. > >> This is not dd, but the disk device drivers underlying OS. > > > > More specifically, it's the Solaris volume manager, isn't it? I > > forget the specific incantation, but it is possible to tell Solaris > > "Forget aboit" and treat a disk as a raw resource. > > Nope, nothing at all to do with the volume manager. All it does > is deal with things like automatically mounting filesystems when they > come up, such as when a CDROM is inserted. > > The issue concerns partitioning and where "data" starts on the > disk...and most importantly, whether or not that data includes the > block containing the partition table. Traditionally, the "c" > partition on a Unix system means "the whole disk" but unfortunately > (from what I've seen) that doesn't include the block containing the > partition table on some systems. > > > It's probably a good thing for most users/workloads, but mostly > > Sun's volume manager just irritates me. > > Same here. Edit /etc/vold.conf to make it ignore the stuff you > want it to. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From andy.piercy at gmail.com Fri May 4 03:39:48 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:39:48 +0100 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: So basically you can only use dd to copy to a disk of the same size. OK so here is the real issue: I have a faulty Unis system disk that is 142 Mb, it had the sticky bumpers issue, now repaired but I want to copy the OS and apps to a second replacement disk, this is a 442 Mb drive. There seems to be a bug with the standalone floppies in that the restore program will not restore dump tapes created and verified in single user mode. bummer! I only have the Unix OS distribution floppies and not the applications. So can I rebuild a working disk by.. 1) Use the floppies to build a new operating system on to the 442Mb drive. 2) Mount the faulty 144 Mb drive with all of the apps etc. 3) Copy using cp, tar, cpio, all of the contents from the faulty drive to the new drive and over write all of the os, will this work? Unix should be in memory so maybe the system wont crash? (would cp -r be the best command here) 4) Remake the root \Unix file from all of the newly copied data / files 5) Reboot the system..... and hope! Any ideas on this approach? Or I could create a second partition and copy the files from the faulty drive to the it? and copy over the contents, but basically the same as above because the app files are all over the file system..... Or how about creating a complete cpio disk image to cart tape? Ta, Andy. On 03/05/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On May 3, 2007, at 4:23 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>> dd also seems to have some implementation-specifics > >>> baked into it. On Solaris I was completely unable to > >>> transfer a raw VMS disk image from one drive to > >>> another (identical) one using dd; however the same > >>> transfer worked correctly under Linux. > >> This is not dd, but the disk device drivers underlying OS. > > > > More specifically, it's the Solaris volume manager, isn't it? I > > forget the specific incantation, but it is possible to tell Solaris > > "Forget aboit" and treat a disk as a raw resource. > > Nope, nothing at all to do with the volume manager. All it does > is deal with things like automatically mounting filesystems when they > come up, such as when a CDROM is inserted. > > The issue concerns partitioning and where "data" starts on the > disk...and most importantly, whether or not that data includes the > block containing the partition table. Traditionally, the "c" > partition on a Unix system means "the whole disk" but unfortunately > (from what I've seen) that doesn't include the block containing the > partition table on some systems. > > > It's probably a good thing for most users/workloads, but mostly > > Sun's volume manager just irritates me. > > Same here. Edit /etc/vold.conf to make it ignore the stuff you > want it to. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri May 4 04:22:41 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 10:22:41 +0100 Subject: WTD: Catweasel raw track dumps Message-ID: <463AFB61.9010901@philpem.me.uk> Hi, A few of you have probably heard about my little project - the portable floppy disc raw-reader/writer. Through a bit of spare-time coding I've got all the basic elements of the reading side of the interface done. That is to say, according to the simulator, my hardware design can detect MFM sync markers, index pulses and track index sequences on hard-sectored floppies. Unfortunately I'm not going to have time to do the PCB layouts and such for another few weeks at the least, which leads me to my next problem... Rather than halt all development due to lack of time, I'd like to take a look at some of the software side of things. What I need are some raw data dumps i.e. if you're using a Catweasel, the data in the CW's RAM after the track read command completed. The 'testhist' utility from Tim Mann's CW2DMK pack can do this, with the command: testhist port drive track side clock [file] The documentation for testhist explains how to use it - port is the I/O port for ISA Catweasels or card ID number (starting at 0) for PCI Catweasels. Drive is the drive number (starting at 0), track and side are equally obvious, clock is the clock rate (0 for SD/DD, 1 for HD). The 'file' parameter is the name of the output file that What I'm after are the raw files (and testhist output if possible) for: - FM encoding, IBM format (PC or similar) - MFM encoding, uPD765 (PC format), 3.5" DD - MFM encoding, uPD765 (PC format), 3.5" HD - MFM encoding, Amiga format, 3.5" What I'm wanting to do is try out a neat little read-compensation algorithm I found that seems to make it easier to decode discs where the FM/MFM timing thresholds are a little ambiguous (the histogram shows a lot of bleed/smear along the bottom). An image of the whole disc would be useful, else a few random tracks would be just as good (and probably easier to FTP/email). Are there any kind souls out there with a Catweasel card and CW2DMK (or a similar tool) that can provide this data? Thanks, -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri May 4 05:55:02 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into a Chevy Venture Message-ID: <617466.15459.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I managed to accquire more hardware... This time in the form of a couple CDC hard drives - one 9775 (Fixed media, 650mb) and one 9766 (300mb removeable). I also wound up with an 11/84 and a couple RL02's and one and a half RA80's. (my first Unibus 11, and my first removable pack drives - yay!) I'm very excited - this hardware is all new to me, and very different from what I already have. The 11/84 is much "beefier" physically than my wimpy little 11/73, and I've never owned freestanding hard drives. But - I digress. I had to drive about 950 miles round trip to pick these up. Truck rental is very expensive. I drive a Toyota Camry. So, I borrowed my father's minivan, a Chevy Venture. I've moved all manner of heavy hardware, racks, printers, etc in it, and figured that it would be fine for the task. Getting the stuff in was pretty easy. The CDC drives were slightly bigger than I had envisioned, but they fit. We loaded it with a ramp and a loading dock, and I had two people helping me, so I didn't fully appreciate just how heavy the CDC drives were. The PDP-11 rack was a 5 foot rack that was a simple "tip and slide", and some loose rack mountable stuffs stacked easily next to it. At this point, I had the van completely crammed - the passenger seat was pushed forward and angled forward as far as it would go, with the two CDC drives behind the seats, then the PDP rack on the passsenger side in the back, and stuff stacked behind the other drive on the drivers side. Some disk packs were seat belted into the passenger seat. The van rode really low, but was still driveable, albiet more "sluggish", and I had to top up one of the tires before driving back. I drove the route back in one shot - no stops for anything. I didn't get home until late, and only brought in the disk packs. It took me the better part of a week to figure out how to get the CDC drives *out* of the van. I was able to get the PDP-11 out with little difficulty. It's just a rack and some loose stuff. No problems there. But those CDC drives were so heavy that I couldn't even tilt them much in the van, and they's sunken into the carpet and weren't able to roll, not to mention the holes in the floor where the seats normally latch into. I found the operators manual for the CDC 9775 (BZ7Ex) on bitsavers - it lists the specs for the drive - weight 639 pounds! Oh, good. At least I think the 9766 is lighter. A little. It took a few days to get friends with time to help me, but we managed to get the drives out of the van yesterday night. I'll spare you the gory details, but I removed the power supplies from both drives first, as well as the doors and panels. When moving these, heavy is an understatement. Now I just need to get them into the basement. So... now does anyone have a scan of the service or installation manual for a 9775? I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... -Ian From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri May 4 06:35:29 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 13:35:29 +0200 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevy Venture In-Reply-To: <617466.15459.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883DE@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus > Sent: vrijdag 4 mei 2007 12:55 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC > drives into aChevy Venture > > Well, I managed to accquire more hardware... This time in the > form of a couple CDC hard drives - one 9775 (Fixed media, > 650mb) and one 9766 (300mb removeable). > I also wound up with an 11/84 and a couple RL02's and one and > a half RA80's. (my first Unibus 11, and my first removable > pack drives - yay!) I'm very excited - this hardware is all > new to me, and very different from what I already have. The > 11/84 is much "beefier" > physically than my wimpy little 11/73, and I've never owned > freestanding hard drives. But - I digress. > > [...snip...] Yeah, freestanding drives are nice. I have three RK07, two RM03 and an RM80 and a TU80 ... they take up quite some space! But cool :-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 4 09:13:41 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 10:13:41 -0400 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into a Chevy Venture In-Reply-To: <617466.15459.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <617466.15459.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463B3F95.1010007@atarimuseum.com> Hi Ian, Yeah, I had a similar situation. A paid a friend of mine who used to run a Video Arcade Pickup/Delivery Route up and down the East Coast. So he picked up a 9766 for me and put it into his Suburban. Now he was lucky at the pickup as they had the equipment to lift the drive system up and into the back of his SUV. Now on my end, we had to figure out how to get that 500LB dishwasher sized drive the heck out of his car without: Dropping and Damaging it. Dropping and killing one of us under its crushing weight. We ended up getting some steel 8' car ramps, put a moving blanket onto the top begining, slide the drive outward and onto the blanket and then gradually slide it down the ramp to the end. I got a 2X4 and we put it across the bottom of both ramps under the base of the drive unit, braced it with out feet and slowly tilted the drive upwards and got it onto its casters. Whole thing took a painful and scary 5-10 minutes to do, very unnerving and makes you truly respect and mini/mainframe gear. Next step.... its now staged up in my garage after being in storage for a few years. I'm hiring a moving company to take it up to the 2nd floor office and move it in their cause I ain't even thinking of trying to do that or risk asking any friends to help cause somebody will get killed if we slip, so let the moving guys do it.... they can always hire replacements ;-) When you are ready to get your 9766 up and running, let me know I have an alignment pak if you need to borrow it. I also have a spare Emulex Qbus card too. Curt Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, I managed to accquire more hardware... This time > in the form of a couple CDC hard drives - one 9775 > (Fixed media, 650mb) and one 9766 (300mb removeable). > I also wound up with an 11/84 and a couple RL02's and > one and a half RA80's. (my first Unibus 11, and my > first removable pack drives - yay!) I'm very excited - > this hardware is all new to me, and very different > from what I already have. The 11/84 is much "beefier" > physically than my wimpy little 11/73, and I've never > owned freestanding hard drives. But - I digress. > > I had to drive about 950 miles round trip to pick > these up. Truck rental is very expensive. I drive a > Toyota Camry. So, I borrowed my father's minivan, a > Chevy Venture. I've moved all manner of heavy > hardware, racks, printers, etc in it, and figured that > it would be fine for the task. Getting the stuff in > was pretty easy. The CDC drives were slightly bigger > than I had envisioned, but they fit. We loaded it with > a ramp and a loading dock, and I had two people > helping me, so I didn't fully appreciate just how > heavy the CDC drives were. The PDP-11 rack was a 5 > foot rack that was a simple "tip and slide", and some > loose rack mountable stuffs stacked easily next to it. > At this point, I had the van completely crammed - the > passenger seat was pushed forward and angled forward > as far as it would go, with the two CDC drives behind > the seats, then the PDP rack on the passsenger side in > the back, and stuff stacked behind the other drive on > the drivers side. Some disk packs were seat belted > into the passenger seat. > > The van rode really low, but was still driveable, > albiet more "sluggish", and I had to top up one of the > tires before driving back. I drove the route back in > one shot - no stops for anything. I didn't get home > until late, and only brought in the disk packs. > > It took me the better part of a week to figure out how > to get the CDC drives *out* of the van. I was able to > get the PDP-11 out with little difficulty. It's just a > rack and some loose stuff. No problems there. But > those CDC drives were so heavy that I couldn't even > tilt them much in the van, and they's sunken into the > carpet and weren't able to roll, not to mention the > holes in the floor where the seats normally latch > into. I found the operators manual for the CDC 9775 > (BZ7Ex) on bitsavers - it lists the specs for the > drive - weight 639 pounds! Oh, good. At least I think > the 9766 is lighter. A little. > > It took a few days to get friends with time to help > me, but we managed to get the drives out of the van > yesterday night. I'll spare you the gory details, but > I removed the power supplies from both drives first, > as well as the doors and panels. When moving these, > heavy is an understatement. Now I just need to get > them into the basement. > > So... now does anyone have a scan of the service or > installation manual for a 9775? > > I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in > and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... > > -Ian > > From dm561 at torfree.net Fri May 4 09:04:36 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 11:04:36 -0300 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd Message-ID: <01C78E3C.22F4D0C0@MSE_D03> Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:28:01 -0500 From: Doc Shipley Subject: Re: Unix disk copy using dd Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > >> Assuming you have a third disk or a spare partition on the larger drive, >> can't you tar the small disk > to a file there and then untar to the >> final >> disk/partition? > > > You're assuming that the small disk the data is coming from contains a > file system. > And, if it does, it's more efficient to use a pipe instead of a tarfile. >Peace... Sridhar -------------- Mike: I did indeed assume a filesystem; under what circumstances would a Unix hard disk not have a file system? And what do you mean specifically by "use a pipe"? Example? If you don't need an archive copy couldn't you just copy the boot file and cp the root? My experience with Unix is pretty limited, but this is how I archive and copy systems with Cromix; the tar file is copied to a PC and zipped, and unzipped and restored if/when needed. If there's a more efficient way, I'm definitely interested. ========= Doc wrote: > Enering pedant mode, even if the source disk has a filesystem, tar can't grab boot blocks, partition tables, extended attributes, etc. And various tar implementations have other nasty little warts. ------------- Mike: Granted, you'd have to create the boot block on the new drive, but I thought the whole point was to _not_ copy the partition table since you're moving to a larger drive? In my Cromix experience at least, which attributes are retained seems to be a function of the version of tar (or ftar) and the options selected. ======= > dd is about the dumbest** command on the planet, which is why I love it. > > Doc ------------- Mike: Ditto, but how would you use it in this case? m From dm561 at torfree.net Fri May 4 09:12:55 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 11:12:55 -0300 Subject: IMI HDs (was Micropolis Disk Drives) Message-ID: <01C78E3D.48317AE0@MSE_D03> Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 21:33:54 -0700 From: "Rick Bensene" Subject: Re: Micropolis Disk Drives (Was TNIX) >Tony wrote: >> There are 2 possible interfaces for the Micropolis 1203. >> The bare drive has a 50 pin connector, which is somewhat similar in >> concept to the SMD interface. There's an 8 bit parallel data bus with >> strobe lines, etc, to do things like head postiioning, and a raw data >> stream. ----------- Speaking of unusual HD I/Fs, did anyone other than IMI ever use their 34-pin interface? mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 4 09:15:42 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 10:15:42 -0400 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture Message-ID: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture > From: Mr Ian Primus > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... > >-Ian My favorite was moving 18 microVAX3100s, 10 storage boxes(BA42), 5 TLZ04s, 3 uVAX2000, 14 terminals (vt320), three printers(LA100ro) and three boxes of cables. In one trip using my '72 Toyota pickup. For laughs I had it weighed and it was 1204 pounds of hardware in a half ton pickup. It was full and it took hours to load it and more hours to unload it plus the 420 mile round trip. Did it twice as that was only part of the haul. However the best move I was part of was a bunch of DEC System20s fortunately the people organizing that move had a 16ft truck and access to all the loading platforms and dollys needed. Very heavy stuff and requires a bit of foreknowledge to move. Those little details like seperating cabinets and raising the feet so the casters roll and the like. The last really big move I was involved with was helping Megan move a bunch of larger PDP11 and PDP8 systems from a home to her storage. A liftgate truck made that possible. Allison From Moriamez.jc at wanadoo.fr Fri May 4 09:38:58 2007 From: Moriamez.jc at wanadoo.fr (Moriamez.jc) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:38:58 +0200 Subject: Emulex P4000 Terminal servers - End of lifed - Free software! Message-ID: <000501c78e59$f3796040$0800a8c0@asus> Hello, I live in France and I am very happy seeing your message on P4000 servers end of lifed I have 2*emulex p2516 and the software is end of lifed, do you know what can i do ? thanks for all Dr Moriamez Lille France Geoff Roberts geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Jul 23 19:45:46 CDT 2000 a.. Previous message: Scope use... b.. Next message: Vax 6000 Ram and/or CPU Cards wanted in Texas. c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a note to all. I have an Emulex Peformance 4000 Terminal Server I got at auction. It came without software, and initial inquiries some time back indicated that the software needed to be purchased from Emulex. Recently I inquired again of Emulex regarding this, and was informed that all Terminal/communications servers had been end of lifed, and was given details on where to download the Performance 4000 software. Thought this might be of interest to others out there who might have one of these stuck on a shelf somewhere. I have the boot file if you don't want to have to get it from Emulex. (The P4K works good too!) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe at tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri May 4 10:45:23 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 12:45:23 -0300 Subject: Mentec References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <053a01c78e63$6b8a9820$f0fea8c0@alpha> >As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around how >RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have >not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they could >help us poor pdp preservers. I doubt they would release it for free, being a company and have paid some money for these rights. But if you want to give a try, why not a formal letter bringing the stuff up to the knowledge of mentec's owners/directors explaining that there are a lot of hobbists looking to be right and this even helps their sales with all the homebrew development it brings (an example is spare time gizmos, who make hardware for PDP computers which keep them working). From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 4 12:08:35 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 10:08:35 -0700 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <463B6893.8020805@bitsavers.org> > But if you want to give a try, why not a formal > letter bringing the stuff up to the knowledge of mentec's owners/directors Read the discussions on this subject in alt.sys.pdp11 It sounds like Zane (maybe Tim Shoppa) have been in contact with them recently, so there is no need for yet another set of people to be involved. As I understand it, they have no interest in offering a low cost license no matter how many people ask about it. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri May 4 12:21:49 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 13:21:49 -0400 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <463B336D0200003700004AC1@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Al Kossow wrote: > It sounds like Zane (maybe Tim Shoppa) have been in > contact with them recently, so there is no need for yet > another set of people to be involved. If "Recently" is "2000", then yes, I worked extensively with Mentec to make three sets of hobbyist CD's (RT-11, RSX-11, RSTS/E) using my archives and their archives to get bootable kits for emulators. > As I understand it, they have no interest in offering a > low cost license no matter how many people ask about it. Internally, there was interest, and I discussed it with several at Mentec in the 1996-2001 timeframe as I worked with them on other projects, and it got as far as them having a web page with pictures of the CD's I made for them. But no, not all the legal barriers were jumped, so it never really happened. I don't think anyone truly understands the legal barriers that Mentec faces. They do not own all the stuff free and clear to do with as they wish. In the late 90's, they could not sell a copy of any PDP-11 OS unless they also sold DEC's printed manuals with it, and they were having extreme troubles getting DEC's printed manuals from DEC's print shop. The folks in Mentec who were most enthusiastic about it were really nice, energetic people. I don't have any sore feelings about the work I did back then (I had a blast) but I don't have as much interest in the subject as I did ten years ago. Being out at the CHM last year rekindled it a little... but there's no shortage of truly redistributable and very-few-condition other stuff that I'm worrying about now. Tim. From evan at snarc.net Fri May 4 13:19:24 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 14:19:24 -0400 Subject: Recent Trenton show Message-ID: <003501c78e78$befaddc0$6401a8c0@evan> >>> the best knock down drag out brawl between me and E.K. That is NOT true. In reality, Chris Keegan (aka "chris m") approached our user group booth, opened his mouth, and thereby illustrated why we long ago banned him from the group. I won't get into specifics. But if I were dumb enough to fight anyone, it wouldn't be this dude: he might attack with his "puters" and "stuph". - Evan From James at jdfogg.com Fri May 4 13:40:31 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 14:40:31 -0400 Subject: Hosstraders reborn Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256D8B@sbs.jdfogg.com> There used to be a New England ham radio show known as the "hosstraders" flea market, or the Deerfield show. It had morphed into a radio / computer flea market. There is a new annual ham radio / computer flea market show at the Deerfield facility this weekend. If anyone wants specifics drop me an email. James - "I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle" From trag at io.com Fri May 4 13:45:29 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 13:45:29 -0500 Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: <200705040613.l446CHtr027277@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705040613.l446CHtr027277@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:58:11 -0700 (PDT) >From: Cameron Kaiser >> I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read and >> installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. The >> rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. >> BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint that >> this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to 24-bit >> addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" doesn't >> work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? > >Which Performa? Those ROMs may be too new for System 6. To elaborate a bit on Cameron's point... System 6 requires 24 bit addressing on the host machine. The first Macs were based on the 68000 which only has 24 address bits. When they added the Mac II and SE/30 to the line-up they switched to the 68020 and 68030 which have 32 address bits, but the OS was still operating in a 24 bit address space. So, in order to run System 6 you need hardware which can translate to 24 bit addresses. Apple included the feature of a choice of 24 bit or 32 bit addressing modes in early Macs, but abandoned it somewhere in the middle of the Quadra (68040) line-up. So, for example, the Quadra 605 can do both 24 bit and 32 bit addressing, but the Quadra 63x family cannot. My guess is that the Quadra 650 does not include support for 24 bit addressing and neither does the performa you used. This would definitely be true of any Performa 63x, or later PowerPC Performas. So, you most likely need a ROM image from an older machine. Also, even if 24 bit addressing is supported in the emulated, ROM imaged machine, Apple dropped support for OS 6 somewhere along the way in their hardware/firmware. I suspect that regardless of the 24 bit/32 bit issue, the Q650 will not run anything earlier than some flavor of OS 7. I may be misremembering, but that's how I would bet. You may want to check a website such as everymac.com, because I believe it lists the OS's supported by each Mac model. Jeff Walther From ohh at drizzle.com Fri May 4 14:24:57 2007 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 12:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into a Chevy Venture In-Reply-To: <617466.15459.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mr Ian Primus wrote, in part: > Well, I managed to accquire more hardware... This time > in the form of a couple CDC hard drives - one 9775 > (Fixed media, 650mb) and one 9766 (300mb removeable). > I also wound up with an 11/84 and a couple RL02's and > one and a half RA80's. (my first Unibus 11, and my > first removable pack drives - yay!) Wow! Congratulations! It sounds like fun, although the move did sound like a challenge. :) > I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in > and out of vehicles... Once, when I was younger and stupider. A PDP-8/I, in the 6' rack, packed into... (drum roll) ... a Ford Pinto hatchback. :) With the software, the boxes of 3-ring binders, and the books. Oh, and did I mention the ASR-33 Teletype? :) In _one_ trip, of course, because I didn't want to take any chances on any of it getting away while we were off moving part of it. And, of course, there were _two_ of us in the car for the trip. ...Don't ask me how we did it. I don't think I could answer. I _do_ remember having the passenger seat against my back and the dashboard against my chest, and I specifically remember telling Dave if he made any sudden stops he was going to have to pull the rack out of my torso afterwards. Simply put, that was something I think I'd only be stupid enough to try in my youth. O'course that assumption may be challenged if I ever find myself faced with a pedestal-mount PDP-11 and, say, a moped. :) :) -O.- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 4 14:40:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 15:40:56 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd In-Reply-To: <01C78E3C.22F4D0C0@MSE_D03> References: <01C78E3C.22F4D0C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On May 4, 2007, at 10:04 AM, M H Stein wrote: > I did indeed assume a filesystem; under what circumstances would a > Unix > hard disk not have a file system? One example is the use of a raw partition for, say, a database. This is not uncommon in Oracle installations, for example. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 4 14:51:32 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 14:51:32 -0500 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture In-Reply-To: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> > > From: Mr Ian Primus > > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in > >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... > > > >-Ian My largest move in the smallest vehicle was 16 Sparcstations (4,5,10 variety) + a couple boxes of cables creatively crammed, tetris-style, into the trunk of an '84 Mercedes 240D. It wasn't until I got home that I realized the frame was rubbing the tires when I drove :) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 4 14:53:09 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 12:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unix disk copy using dd In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "May 4, 7 03:40:56 pm" Message-ID: <200705041953.l44Jr9XF015408@floodgap.com> > > I did indeed assume a filesystem; under what circumstances would a > > Unix hard disk not have a file system? > > One example is the use of a raw partition for, say, a database. > This is not uncommon in Oracle installations, for example. Informix does this also. It has a whole management subsystem for its "raw" dataspaces. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: The moon is in Venus' house. This will make no difference. -------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 4 14:55:48 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 12:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: from Jeff Walther at "May 4, 7 01:45:29 pm" Message-ID: <200705041955.l44Jtmdp015510@floodgap.com> > > Which Performa? Those ROMs may be too new for System 6. > > To elaborate a bit on Cameron's point... [...] > My guess is that the Quadra 650 does not include support for 24 bit > addressing and neither does the performa you used. This would > definitely be true of any Performa 63x, or later PowerPC Performas. Right, exactly -- sorry if that wasn't clear. > Also, even if 24 bit addressing is supported in the emulated, ROM > imaged machine, Apple dropped support for OS 6 somewhere along the > way in their hardware/firmware. I suspect that regardless of the 24 > bit/32 bit issue, the Q650 will not run anything earlier than some > flavor of OS 7. I may be misremembering, but that's how I would > bet. You may want to check a website such as everymac.com, because > I believe it lists the OS's supported by each Mac model. The Q650 definitely needs an enabler for 7.1 and (I think) 7.5. I think it's directly supported by 7.6 but I'd have to check my support information. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why, I'd horsewhip you if I had a horse! -- Groucho Marx ------------------- From paul at frixxon.co.uk Fri May 4 14:59:23 2007 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 20:59:23 +0100 Subject: What became of GRI Computer Corporation? Message-ID: <463B909B.2050605@frixxon.co.uk> I have an email address at the bottom of every page of Manx, my catalogue of computer manuals, and an invitation to people to send me questions or comments. I expect people to ask questions about the catalogue, but instead I usually receive requests from far-flung countries to quote for supplying spare parts for their ancient hardware. Ho hum. But today I received a question from someone who believes that my humble catalogue is the online presence of the mighty Manx Corporation. The email is reproduced below. Google has been no assistance in providing any answers. Surely someone here knows what became of GRI Computer Corporation? I'll pass on any responses. --quote-- I have some stocks (100 shares) that were purchased in 1972 for G.R.I. Computer Corp. When searching for information regarding this company and whether or not it still exists - I end up being redirected to this page for the Manx Corporation. Do you happen to know if G.R.I was purchased by Manx or how I might go about researching the value for these stocks? Any help is appreciated. --endquote-- -- Paul for the mighty Manx Corporation From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 4 15:00:58 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 15:00:58 -0500 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd ? In-Reply-To: References: <296725.81334.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53756B8E-6423-4D25-9609-5B1BF9DD4275@neurotica.com> <463A44BA.4030807@mdrconsult.com> <19779914-0AC6-453B-B7BA-708DF84D3FA8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <463B90FA.70701@yahoo.co.uk> Andy Piercy wrote: > I only have the Unix OS distribution floppies and not the applications. > > So can I rebuild a working disk by.. > > 1) Use the floppies to build a new operating system on to the 442Mb drive. > > 2) Mount the faulty 144 Mb drive with all of the apps etc. > > 3) Copy using cp, tar, cpio, all of the contents from the faulty drive to > the new drive and over write > all of the os, will this work? I think I'd do it something like: 1) 'dd' the small drive to temporary storage on a Linux box (or whatever) "just in case" 2) Boot the system with the larger disk in and do an install from floppy. 3) Reboot the system with the smaller drive fitted as a second disk. 4) Use 'find', 'diff' etc. to work out differences between the two and copy files across from the small disk accordingly. If the small drive goes bang during that process you've always got the Linux raw backup which can be put onto any old drive (raw) and booted from (I'd suggest using a sacrificial drive to *test* your backup as step 1.5 above, incidentally :-) I can't remember what system it is now (or if you even said), but the important thing to do is generally not to overwrite any boot information (which on most systems also means not overwriting / moving the kernel). Providing the system can execute the boot code, locate and start the kernel the the filesystem driver(s) should take over and be able to find all the other files on the disk. cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 4 15:12:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 16:12:41 -0400 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd In-Reply-To: <200705041953.l44Jr9XF015408@floodgap.com> References: <200705041953.l44Jr9XF015408@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <463B93B9.4010900@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I did indeed assume a filesystem; under what circumstances would a >>> Unix hard disk not have a file system? >> One example is the use of a raw partition for, say, a database. >> This is not uncommon in Oracle installations, for example. > > Informix does this also. It has a whole management subsystem for its > "raw" dataspaces. So do PostgreSQL, DB2 and many others. It's a fairly common feature. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 4 15:17:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:17:01 -0400 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> References: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: Mr Ian Primus > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) > >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... My three largest non-truck moves were probably a 6' racked PDP-8/L w/ASR-33 in a standard American 1970s station wagon, an 11/750 in a mini-van (which I unloaded solo, somehow), and a pair of H-960 racks and two PDP-11/34s plus RL02s, plus a MINC-11, plus docs, plus crates of floppies, etc., in a Microbus. The Microbus took a little tweaking to get the second 960 in the back, but it all fit nice and tidy for the ride home. -ethan From dm561 at torfree.net Fri May 4 14:27:58 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:27:58 -0300 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 45, Issue 7 Message-ID: <01C78E69.63CF78C0@MSE_D03> ----------Original Message: Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:39:48 +0100 From: "Andy Piercy" Subject: Re: Unix disk copy using dd ? So basically you can only use dd to copy to a disk of the same size. OK so here is the real issue: I have a faulty Unis system disk that is 142 Mb, it had the sticky bumpers issue, now repaired but I want to copy the OS and apps to a second replacement disk, this is a 442 Mb drive. ----------Reply: Perhaps I misunderstood the problem earlier; when you say faulty but repaired, do you mean that you can read the disk but the file system is corrupted, or is the disk in fact bootable & runnable? mike From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 4 15:44:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 13:44:59 -0700 Subject: What became of GRI Computer Corporation? In-Reply-To: <463B909B.2050605@frixxon.co.uk> References: <463B909B.2050605@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <463B38DB.4935.1DDA47A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2007 at 20:59, Paul Williams wrote: > Surely someone here knows what became of GRI Computer Corporation? I'll > pass on any responses. Only because I have a curious interest in MOVE architectures, do I believe the answer to this one is that whatever's left of GRI is currently owned by Analog Devices. Saul Dinman would have the most authoritative answer on this one, however--I belive he's still alive and kicking... Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri May 4 15:50:54 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 13:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: That horrible computer foam Message-ID: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed that some pieces of equipment like printers and the like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, squshy material that does not spring back. It also crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, along with the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry goo. On the CDC drives I just picked up, the entire inside of them is covered in this foam, some of it is starting to come off, or has stuck to cables and such inside. A couple smaller chunks of it literally fell off one part of the cover, the glue only holding the particular particles of the foam to which it was attached, and the rest of the foam falling away. What is the best thing to do about this, especially in something as sensitive as a disk drive? Should I remove it? What's the best method? Is there something I can use to replace it? Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. Any ideas? Thanks! -Ian From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 4 16:09:26 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 17:09:26 -0400 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, > there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. > I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what > I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what > will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk > from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. The best thing to do with that foam is to scrape as much as you can off manually, since many of the solvents that will dissolve that gunk can damage paint and plastic. As for getting IBM goop off your hands, I use Fast Orange. The orange oil and pumice tends to do the job. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 4 16:21:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 14:21:58 -0700 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463B4186.1715.1DFC23B5@cclist.sydex.com> I've found that plain old detergent and warm water applied with a scrub brush does an adequate job at getting the decayed foam out of cabinet interiors (or any other place where water won't damage things). The worst thing IMOHO, to use is mineral spirits. The result is lots of sticky black gunk. Really a hideous mess. After I'm done with the water, if there's any adhesive left on the surface, I'll then use mineral spirits to remove it. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 4 16:24:04 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 14:24:04 -0700 Subject: Surely someone here knows what became of GRI Computer Corporation? Message-ID: <463BA474.3040206@bitsavers.org> Looooooooooooooooooong gone. One of the founders was Saul Denman, creator of the PDP8/S John Bordynuik contacted him years ago while researching the history of the 8/S great.. I see he has let pdp8.com croak. Info may be saved at archive.org From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri May 4 16:25:06 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 22:25:06 +0100 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> Message-ID: Another couple of nasties about to (or already have done) damage your collectables are the rubber rollers in tape drives and backup batteries. Dave Caroline From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri May 4 16:55:49 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 17:55:49 -0400 Subject: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883D9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE084883D9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <463BABE5.7010700@compsys.to> >Gooijen, Henk wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >>[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks >>Sent: donderdag 3 mei 2007 16:50 >>To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>Subject: Re: Can disks be copied using only one RL02 drive? >> >> >> >>>Henk thinks creating a RAM disk would work, and copy files >>>but I don't know anything about RT-11. >>> >>> >>That might work, but I don't think you can use RT-11 to write >>the system area when fiddling packs like that. If you had a >>different boot medium, floppy, say, you could treat the RL02 >>drive as a data volume, then it wouldn't matter. The RL02 >>just becomes another drive at that point. >> >>-ethan >> >> > >Charles did not tell completely what I suggested, but since >I am not sure how to do it either, I would like to know ... >I also suggested the obvious ones, get the 2nd drive connected >and do some kludge work on the READY/UNIT indicator/plug. > >Since Charles' 11/23+ has 4 Mb of memory ... I remember I once >had a visitor (some 5 years go!) who showed me how to use the >extra memory (core) in my 11/35 as a "RAM disk". >I don't remember which RT11 command(s?) he used, but creating >a RAM disk is definitely possible! So, if you copy the system >files that you need to run RT11 to the RAM disk *and* you can >boot RT11 from that RAM disk, you can use the rest of the RAM >disk space to copy a few files from the RL02 disk, swap the RL02 >disk and copy the files from RAM to disk, etc. >You need the RAM disk for RT11 too, because you can not simply >swap the RL02 disk, because RT11 is running from it! >Ethan did point that out. > >So, here is the question I have. After creating the RAM disk, >and copying the necessary system files to the RAM disk, is it >possible to *boot* from the RAM disk, like .BOOT dev:RT11FB.SYS ? >And what would "dev" be? I also would like to know what commands >create the RAM disk > Jerome Fine replies: I have been busy with family for the whole week. I quick answer. The ram disk can be over 7000 blocks and is called VM0: and uses either VM.SYS under RT11FB.SYS or VMX.SYS under RT11XM.SYS (if you want to minimize usage, use only one or the other). That probably leaves more than sufficient space for an RT-11 binary distribution if you know how to set up an LD: (logical disk). If you don't, ask some more questions! Basically, just INIT VM:, copy the minimum files to VM: and BOOT VM:RT11XM - you don't need to COPY/BOOT VM:RT11XM.SYS VM: after which you can set up an LD:, etc. and copy the distribution RL02 to the LD: followed by making a duplicate back to a third scratch pack. I strongly recommend that you don't ever write on the distribution pack. Ask more RT-11 questions if you need additional instructions. It really is very easy with a 4 MByte memory under RT-11 to set up the needed VM: of a sufficient size and have only a single RL02 drive. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri May 4 16:58:34 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:58:34 -0300 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into a Chevy Venture References: Message-ID: <05f501c78e97$8c909540$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Once, when I was younger and stupider. A PDP-8/I, in the 6' rack, packed > into... (drum roll) ... a Ford Pinto hatchback. :) Why these funny and happy histories doesn't happen in Brazil... :o( Greetz Alexandre (Why did I left that 11/750? Because it was almost 20 years ago. Bummer.) From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 4 17:01:13 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 18:01:13 -0400 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463BAD29.3020603@atarimuseum.com> Ian, Strip it all out, clean down the surfaces and finish off with a alcohol wipe down, apply fresh replacement of the foam. Don't leave any of the original in the device, that stuff is just trouble waiting to happen after so many years. CUrt Mr Ian Primus wrote: > As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed > that some pieces of equipment like printers and the > like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most > likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam > to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, > squshy material that does not spring back. It also > crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, along with > the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry > goo. > > On the CDC drives I just picked up, the entire inside > of them is covered in this foam, some of it is > starting to come off, or has stuck to cables and such > inside. A couple smaller chunks of it literally fell > off one part of the cover, the glue only holding the > particular particles of the foam to which it was > attached, and the rest of the foam falling away. > > What is the best thing to do about this, especially in > something as sensitive as a disk drive? Should I > remove it? What's the best method? Is there something > I can use to replace it? > > Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, > there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. > I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what > I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what > will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk > from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks! > > -Ian > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 4 17:04:12 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 18:04:12 -0400 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <463B4186.1715.1DFC23B5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463B4186.1715.1DFC23B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463BADDC.7000401@atarimuseum.com> You have to be careful with mineral wash type fluids and paint, generally it is okay enough for quick clean off applications, but some paints react to it if you leave it on for more then a minute and can cause the paint to lift and flak off a few months later, I found this out the hard way on a few cabinets. If you don't mind repainting panels, then some good old WD40 will remove just about anything ;-) Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've found that plain old detergent and warm water applied with a > scrub brush does an adequate job at getting the decayed foam out of > cabinet interiors (or any other place where water won't damage > things). > > The worst thing IMOHO, to use is mineral spirits. The result is lots > of sticky black gunk. Really a hideous mess. > > After I'm done with the water, if there's any adhesive left on the > surface, I'll then use mineral spirits to remove it. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 4 17:08:08 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 18:08:08 -0400 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> Yeah, no kidding.... In video arcade machines - games like Pole Position boards all had the WORST design "feature" --- the boards are mounting to the inside side of the cabinet and the PCB layout has the battery and the top center of the board which over course eventually deteriorated, burst open and oozes battery acid to all of the adjacent components and traces. That's something many of us don't really discuss, using caution when handling older equipment/boards that may still contain original NiCads, lead acid and just plain old Alkaline batteries in them. Dangerous is that might still "pop" or be actively leaking. Curt Dave Caroline wrote: > Another couple of nasties about to (or already have done) damage your > collectables are the rubber rollers in tape drives and backup > batteries. > > Dave Caroline > From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 4 17:13:39 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:13:39 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: References: <200704232212.l3NMBbgp006720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730705041513j2ff4144kaa0c327d831b00f3@mail.gmail.com> Just bought my vendor ticket and made my hotel res (a bit far away, unfortunately, but that's what I get for waiting so long.) I'll be in the black Honda Element, IL plates, selling some really useless junk if anyone wants to say "hey." -j -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri May 4 17:56:45 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 15:56:45 -0700 Subject: That horrible computer foam Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: On the CDC drives I just picked up, the entire inside of them is covered in this foam, some of it is starting to come off, or has stuck to cables and such inside. A couple smaller chunks of it literally fell off one part of the cover, the glue only holding the particular particles of the foam to which it was attached, and the rest of the foam falling away. What is the best thing to do about this, especially in something as sensitive as a disk drive? Should I remove it? What's the best method? Is there something I can use to replace it? Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. Any ideas? Thanks! -Ian -------------------------------------- Billy responds: The foam was originally for acoustic dampening. It was a dense foam without much memory. Over time it does break down into a hideous mess. The original life of the foam was specified at 5 years! I've not had much luck taking in off with the modern solvents. This is one of the times I really miss Trichloroethylene. It would really clean this stuff up. I've used GooGone with some luck. Let it soak and it peels away. There is usually a thin clear plastic film between the glue and the foam. The more stubborn glues sometimes respond to acetone. Try a really diluted type first, say fingernail polish remover, to see that it doesn't remove the paint too. There are several options to clean up a panel. 1. The easiest is clean up as much as you can and glue a new sheet of foam over the mess. You should be able to buy panels of acoustic foam in hardware stores. 2. Remove it and leave it off. But it is lots of work to get it all off. 3. Do the best clean up you can and then spray paint with a thick rubberized paint. This seals the crumbling foam and holds it place. No matter what you do, you are in for a messy stinky time. When the foam breaks down, it goes everywhere. Be sure to vacuum every place you can. Where it won't come out with a vacuum, use air pressure to blow it out - done outside the house of course. Good luck. Billy From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 4 18:02:15 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <003501c78e78$befaddc0$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <790078.84132.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Evan...why don't you concentrate on replying to my offlist e-mails in a substantive manner, instead of trying to create more drama on this list. And that post of mine was an obvious joke. Everyone knew it from the get go. --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> the best knock down drag out brawl between me > and E.K. > > That is NOT true. In reality, Chris Keegan (aka > "chris m") approached > our user group booth, opened his mouth, and thereby > illustrated why we > long ago banned him from the group. > > I won't get into specifics. But if I were dumb > enough to fight anyone, > it wouldn't be this dude: he might attack with his > "puters" and "stuph". > > - Evan > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 4 18:03:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hosstraders reborn In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256D8B@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <538329.69141.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> I thought there was a general flea market by a similar name in the Derry, NH area. No? --- James Fogg wrote: > There used to be a New England ham radio show known > as the "hosstraders" > flea market, or the Deerfield show. It had morphed > into a radio / > computer flea market. > > There is a new annual ham radio / computer flea > market show at the > Deerfield facility this weekend. If anyone wants > specifics drop me an > email. > > > James - > "I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my > lifestyle" > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rcini at optonline.net Fri May 4 18:11:46 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 19:11:46 -0400 Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've actually used it on a native PC running both Win2k and XP *and* I use it as a native OSX application (a Mac version exists for it). I do remember the PC version of the old vMac was a bit rocky but the "Mini vMac" seems to be done by a different team and works well. On 5/4/07 1:24 AM, "David Griffith" wrote: > On Thu, 3 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> I use Basilisk for System 7.5.3 and 8.0 machines such as the Quadra 700 and >> the Mac II series. For System 6, I use Mini vMac. I've used both of these >> programs on both the PC and an Intel Mac Mini and they work fine. > > What OS on a PC do you use? vMac's build system is atrocious. Mini vMac > is taking some getting used to. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 4 18:26:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 16:26:07 -0700 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <463B5E9F.6890.1E6DCF02@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2007 at 15:56, Billy Pettit wrote: > 1. The easiest is clean up as much as you can and glue a new sheet of foam > over the mess. You should be able to buy panels of acoustic foam in > hardware stores. But won't this simply push the same problem out a few more years before you're looking at it again? I think I asked at one time if a good thick felt or sheet cork might do a good-enough job of deadening sound. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri May 4 18:27:22 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:27:22 -0700 Subject: Recent Trenton show Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5AD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chris M wrote: And that post of mine was an obvious joke. Everyone knew it from the get go. --- Billy responds: I didn't. Maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake, but I have trouble deciphering your messages. The humor in this one went right over my head. Billy From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 4 18:35:15 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 May 2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed that some pieces of > equipment like printers and the like, contain a lot of this awful foam > stuff, most likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam to > break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, squshy material that > does not spring back. It also crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, > along with the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry goo. Ugh. That stuff is notorious for causing trouble with older synthesizers as well, especially Moogs. It was often went on top of the slider pots with the actuators poking through slits. The idea was to keep dust out of the pots. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From marvin at west.net Fri May 4 18:49:59 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 16:49:59 -0700 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast Message-ID: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> If anyone knows the spaces where they will be selling (parking), post it here and we can go and harass each other :). My guess is we won't know until the week before. Last year, Patrick Finnigan (sp?) was there and down about 100 yards from where I was. I got a chance to meet a number of others on this list and it is really great to put names with faces! If possible, why not plan a dinner get-together on Saturday night for the ClassicCmp group! Anyone interested? I'll be there too in an easy to recognize blue Mazda van ... it has a set of piano keys on each side and back of the van along with "Schwendtner Piano Service". If anyone is into foxhunting, I've been asked to say a few words at that forum so that will be fun. I'm also planning on trying to get an informal transmitter hunting dinner going for Friday night. If anyone here is blind or sight impaired, there will be a blind ARDF event on Sunday ... see http://www.ardfusa.com for details ... and I'll be there too with a friend who will be competing. FYI, I called the Days Inn in Miamisburg earlier this week to make reservations and they still had rooms available ... didn't ask how much :), and it is only about 5 miles or so from Hara (as I recall.) Marvin, KE6HTS > From: "Jason T" > Just bought my vendor ticket and made my hotel res (a bit far away, > unfortunately, but that's what I get for waiting so long.) > > I'll be in the black Honda Element, IL plates, selling some really > useless junk if anyone wants to say "hey." From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 4 18:53:12 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5AD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <474250.41594.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Billy Pettit wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > > > And that post of mine was an obvious joke. Everyone > knew it from the get go. > > --- > > Billy responds: > > I didn't. Maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake, > but I have trouble > deciphering your messages. The humor in this one > went right over my head. > > Billy It was more intended for those who are familiar with *the group* Billy, like Rich. IIRC it was a response to his post. Let's leave it alone oi ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From dm561 at torfree.net Fri May 4 17:57:51 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 19:57:51 -0300 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd Message-ID: <01C78E86.9ABD2F40@mse-d03> On May 4, 2007, at 10:04 AM, M H Stein wrote: > I did indeed assume a filesystem; under what circumstances would a > Unix hard disk not have a file system? --------------- From: Dave McGuire One example is the use of a raw partition for, say, a database. This is not uncommon in Oracle installations, for example. From: Cameron Kaiser Informix does this also. It has a whole management subsystem for its "raw" dataspaces. From: Sridhar Ayengar So do PostgreSQL, DB2 and many others. It's a fairly common feature. --------------- Well, yes; in fact I used to use Informix and still have disks & docs that I've been meaning to archive and/or re-install some day, but if I were asking how to copy a data partition I think I'd call it an Informix disk and not a Unix disk, since that would certainly have a bearing on the how-to. However, now that I re-read the header I can see that he could have meant "copy a disk using Unix" instead of "copy a Unix disk" (which is what I assumed he meant). What would life be without ambiguity... Now, back to Andy, the original poster: did your question get answered? m From evan at snarc.net Fri May 4 19:05:32 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 20:05:32 -0400 Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <790078.84132.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01c78ea9$19f87900$6401a8c0@evan> >>> why don't you concentrate on replying to my offlist e-mails Because none of them ever deserved a reply. Conversely, I don't appreciate being libeled. -----Original Message----- From: Chris M [mailto:chrism3667 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Recent Trenton show Evan...why don't you concentrate on replying to my offlist e-mails in a substantive manner, instead of trying to create more drama on this list. And that post of mine was an obvious joke. Everyone knew it from the get go. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 4 19:14:34 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <001e01c78ea9$19f87900$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <937402.89361.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> why don't you concentrate on replying to my > offlist e-mails > > Because none of them ever deserved a reply. > Conversely, I don't > appreciate being libeled. uhuh. The simple facts are bothersome I take it. And you were never libeled, show evidence to support that if you're sure it's the case. And if I have any inkling as to what you're referring to, keep in mind I have ALL the correspondence. Again you could have responded offlist. You're well known here (and other places) for propagating so much juvenile drama. I really think it's enough. So grow up. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rcini at optonline.net Fri May 4 19:26:04 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 20:26:04 -0400 Subject: More Hawthorne articles posted Message-ID: All: This evening I posted a few articles on the Hawthorne TinyGiant 68000 that appeared in The Computer Journal issues 27, 29, 30 and 31. Enjoy. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From evan at snarc.net Fri May 4 19:27:54 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 20:27:54 -0400 Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <937402.89361.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000201c78eac$395f1440$6401a8c0@evan> >>> You're well known here (and other places) for propagating so much juvenile drama. Heh. That's pretty funny coming from YOU of all people. You always "hint" at things like this. Several times you said, "Lots of other people hate you Evan, it's not just me" ... but you never named anyone ... so either you're a coward, or (more likely) you're just pulling it out of your ass. -----Original Message----- From: Chris M [mailto:chrism3667 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 8:15 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Recent Trenton show --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> why don't you concentrate on replying to my > offlist e-mails > > Because none of them ever deserved a reply. > Conversely, I don't > appreciate being libeled. uhuh. The simple facts are bothersome I take it. And you were never libeled, show evidence to support that if you're sure it's the case. And if I have any inkling as to what you're referring to, keep in mind I have ALL the correspondence. Again you could have responded offlist. You're well known here (and other places) for propagating so much juvenile drama. I really think it's enough. So grow up. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri May 4 19:43:51 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <000201c78eac$395f1440$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <737244.46398.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> You're well known here (and other places) for > propagating so much > juvenile drama. > > Heh. That's pretty funny coming from YOU of all > people. > > You always "hint" at things like this. Several > times you said, "Lots of > other people hate you Evan, it's not just me" Never, NEVER did any such words leave my mouth. Or my fingers (as in an e-mail, letter, graven tablets, etc...). Never transmitted them via morse code. Neither by smoke signals... Never said anything even remotely close. > but you never named > anyone ... so either you're a coward, or (more > likely) you're just > pulling it out of your ass. Well I am a coward in one sense. I'm too afraid to pull anything out of my arse, being that I'm likely to have tremendous difficulty extracting my own arm from said crevace. But I never did utter those words, and you know it. Never even thought them in fact. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From evan at snarc.net Fri May 4 19:54:20 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 20:54:20 -0400 Subject: Recent Trenton show In-Reply-To: <737244.46398.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000501c78eaf$ea600210$6401a8c0@evan> >>> I'm too afraid to pull anything out of my arse, being that I'm likely to have tremendous difficulty extracting my own arm from said crevace. Next time you try that, fish around for your brain. From dj.taylor at starpower.net Fri May 4 20:09:03 2007 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 21:09:03 -0400 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.co m> References: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.1.20070504210735.01f22db8@pop.starpower.net> At 03:51 PM 5/4/2007, you wrote: >> > From: Mr Ian Primus >> > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in >> >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... >> > >> >-Ian > >My largest move in the smallest vehicle was 16 Sparcstations (4,5,10 >variety) + a couple boxes of cables creatively crammed, tetris-style, >into the trunk of an '84 Mercedes 240D. It wasn't until I got home >that I realized the frame was rubbing the tires when I drove :) This topic is very important to 'hobbyist' machinists. Take a look at some of the moving experiences at http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/ Doug From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri May 4 20:19:46 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:19:46 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 45, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <200705040445.l444ihBM026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705040445.l444ihBM026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3782fd5b2026525add5e13ca0abd0388@valleyimplants.com> > From: David Griffith > Subject: MacOS 6 on BasiliskII > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > I have BasiliskII installed via apt on Ubuntu. I've sucessfully read > and > installed the 6.0.8 system disks as downloaded from Apple's archive. > The > rom images I have and have tried are for a Quadra650 and a Performa. > BasiliskII doesn't like the Mac Plus rom. On boot, I get a complaint > that > this Mac is set for 32-bit addressing and that I should switch to > 24-bit > addressing (since os6 doesn't do 32-bitness). Clicking "24-bit" > doesn't > work. Does anyone here know how to get this working? > As has been said, 040 ROMS are too new for System 6, as are most Performa ROMs. If a Plus won't run, try to find a IIci to get ROM dumps. System 6 runs on almost all II series Macs (not on IIvx/vi, though- but those are rare). The IIci is quite common, which is why I suggested it (also 32-bit-clean if you should want to run System 7) (but you could use II, IIx, IIcx, SE/30, IIsi, IIfx also). From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri May 4 20:32:08 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:32:08 -0700 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 06:53:49 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Subject: Mentec > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: > <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED1 at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi All > I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the > rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they > seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site > that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. No > mention of pdp anything. > > As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around > how > RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have > not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they > could > help us poor pdp preservers. > > Rod > Questions come in clusters, don't they. I'll answer this, since several people were kind enough to patiently explain it to me when I asked the same (VFAQ, but nothing listed in one place). Mentec is still around, although it looks like the PDP-11 division website is not up right now. They did make RT-11, RSX-11, and RSTS/E available for people to use in a _non-commercial_ environment under SIMH. Images for RT-11 and RSTS/E (which does have DCL now, I was operating under old information) are available from the SIMH website. I'm not sure if the RSTS/E distribution includes the RSX runtime or not. Sadly for hobbyists, the license does not extend to true hardware, only the SIMH emulator. It seems that Mentec was looking to have an expanded hobbyist program, but it was not economically viable and/or the attitude of some hobbyists was a bit off-putting. No official reason was given, but the rumors are as above. :(. 2.11BSD and v7 are available freely, though. I believe I have gotten this correct. Scott From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri May 4 20:35:38 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:35:38 -0700 Subject: Unix disk copy using dd? Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:39:48 +0100 > From: "Andy Piercy" > Subject: Re: Unix disk copy using dd ? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > So basically you can only use dd to copy to a disk of the same size. > I have successfully used dd to copy a disk onto another disk of a larger size. The difference between the original disk and the new disk is unused space, but you can run the host partitioner and change that (or, if it's a newer filesystem like XFS, JFS, etc. you can extend onto the unused space). P.S. - realized that my new system for replying to a digest left several messages quite probably without any subject. My apologies. Scott From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 4 21:06:10 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 21:06:10 -0500 Subject: dec & vax stuff found....mostly manuals.... most of this is available Message-ID: <00e101c78eb9$f3cd23f0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Below is a list of stuff I got in the mail today. Someone didn't want it to get thrown away and I offered to pay shipping costs to get it in to collectors hands. Little did I know it was going to be $150. So I'm definitely entertaining offers on any of the items below to recoup my costs. I also just want to make sure this stuff gets to collectors. Condition - most of this stuff is in unusually good condition. Many of the dec handbooks look almost new. I probably want to keep the 11/34 printset and the unibus extender. With regards to the manuals, there are some real gems in the list - note the GT40 manuals, the 11/70 handbook, and the 68000 programming card. Let me know if there is interest. Jay --------- DEC handbooks microcomputer processor handbook 1979-80 2 microcomputers and memories 1981 2 microcomputers and memories 1982 3 microcomputer interfaces handbook 1980 2 pdp11 processor handbook pdp11/04/24/34a/44/70 PDP-11 micro/pdp-11 handbook 1983-1984 microcomputer processors 1978-1979 pdp11 peripherals handbook 1976 pdp11 peripherals handbook programming & interfacing 1973-1974 pdp11 peripherals and interfacing handbook 1972 pdp11 04/05/10/35/40/45 processor handbook 1975-1976 communications handbook 1981-82 terminals and communications handbook 1980 pdp11/70 processor handbook 1977-78 vax hardware handbook 1980-81 vax systems hardware handbook - unibus systems (vax-11/725/730/750/780/785/782, 8600/8650) Misc Books IC Op-Amp cookbook second edition, walter jung (sams) Small manuals orange minireference book RSX-11M (version 4.2) blue minireference book RSX-11M (version 3.2) PDP-11 RT-11 pocket guide Fluke 8024A operator's guide card pdp11 programming card pdp11 programming card (older blue one) pdp11/04/34/34a maintenance card RSX-11M pocket reference (ship and masefield quote on front) MC68000 16 bit microprocessor programming card Printsets 11/34a field maintenance print set MS11-L field maintenance print set VT100/VT103 field maintenance print set Manuals (2) PDP-11 Macro-11 language reference manual (2) RSX-11M/M-Plus task builder manual pdp-11/34 system users manual MS11-L MOS memory users guide DL11-W serial line unit/real-time clock option operators manual M9312 bootstrap terminator module technical manual (copy) VAX-11 run time library reference manual RSX-11M/M-Plus executive reference manual IAS/RSX-11 system library routines reference manual (with updates) RSX-11M guide to writing an I/O driver (with updates) VAX-11 record management services reference manual VAX/VMS I/O users guide volume 1 VAX/VMS I/O users guide volume 2 VAX/VMS real time users guide VAX-11 run time library users guide RSX-11M beginners guide RSX-11M/RSX-11S documentation directory RSX-11M mini-index Introduction to RSX11M Beginners guide to the DEC EDITOR (2) RSX-11M/M-Plus guide to program development DECUS C Language Sytem DECUS C compiler reference manual DECUS C Language System compiler & library software support manual DECUS C Language System utility library reference manual PML users guide portable math library DECUS C Language system RSX-11M v4.0 executive and F11ACP C Extensions library GT40 users guide (operation) GT40 graphic display terminal manual volume 1 (theory, prog, maint) GT40 graphic display terminal manual volume 2 (theory, prog, maint) RSX11M user handouts (ZX-RSX11-UR) IAS/RSX-11 macro-11 reference manual IAS/RSX-11 ODT reference manual RT-11 shoftware support manual Price lists & specs GT11 Price List Hardware KEF11-AA (four roms, 2 sets, each set is a uA1488PC and a uA1489PC) unibus dual height extender card M9312 bootstrap terminator card (roms DL, DM, DP, DKDT, and 11/04/34 diag/cons) VT100 terminal & keyboard From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 4 22:35:54 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 22:35:54 -0500 Subject: Recent Trenton show References: <000501c78eaf$ea600210$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <008301c78ec6$7d06e0a0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> This thread has become wholly inappropriate. The last few posts on it should have been taken offlist and the people making those posts know it. If people want to "get in to it" with eachother, take it off list or I'll assist you in doing so. Jay From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 4 23:17:45 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 23:17:45 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730705042117t1d309052g564af4c5a355f822@mail.gmail.com> I'll look for ya then....I'm in a Knight's Inn about 15mi south. Don't recall the town but it's right on the interstate so hopefully not a long ride. There were some closer hotels for $100/day or so, and a few much cheaper but without internet service (hey, I'm an addict....) I only bought my vendor ticket a couple days ago. I thought I saw something on their site that said tickets bought after n date would be held at will-call instead of mailed. I do hope it's there! I haven't too much to sell, so to me it's more of a $70 parking space. Don't want to haul that boat anchor onto the shuttle bus ;) -j On 5/4/07, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > If anyone knows the spaces where they will be selling (parking), post it here > and we can go and harass each other :). My guess is we won't know until the week > before. Last year, Patrick Finnigan (sp?) was there and down about 100 yards > from where I was. I got a chance to meet a number of others on this list and it > is really great to put names with faces! If possible, why not plan a dinner > get-together on Saturday night for the ClassicCmp group! Anyone interested? > > I'll be there too in an easy to recognize blue Mazda van ... it has a set of > piano keys on each side and back of the van along with "Schwendtner Piano > Service". If anyone is into foxhunting, I've been asked to say a few words at > that forum so that will be fun. I'm also planning on trying to get an informal > transmitter hunting dinner going for Friday night. If anyone here is blind or > sight impaired, there will be a blind ARDF event on Sunday ... see > http://www.ardfusa.com for details ... and I'll be there too with a friend who > will be competing. > > FYI, I called the Days Inn in Miamisburg earlier this week to make reservations > and they still had rooms available ... didn't ask how much :), and it is only > about 5 miles or so from Hara (as I recall.) > > Marvin, KE6HTS From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri May 4 23:26:50 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 00:26:50 -0400 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> Message-ID: <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 04 May 2007 19:49, Marvin Johnston wrote: > If anyone knows the spaces where they will be selling (parking), post > it here and we can go and harass each other :). My guess is we won't > know until the week before. Last year, Patrick Finnigan (sp?) was > there and down about 100 yards from where I was. I got a chance to > meet a number of others on this list and it is really great to put > names with faces! If possible, why not plan a dinner get-together on > Saturday night for the ClassicCmp group! Anyone interested? I've got spaces 3214/3415 (they're back to back) this year. I'll have a lot of old (and some newer) computer stuff, random electronic things with tube in them, and test equipment for sale. Pat - KD9VAX -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri May 4 18:38:58 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 00:38:58 +0100 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED4@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Firstly thank you all for your kind responses. I'm now up to date with the history. Does anybody know what the current status is? Have Mentec abandonded the pdp-11 market or what? If they no longer see any commercial value in the products then why refuse us? If the rights had not been sold then I supose that they would be owned by HP. HP do have a very good VMS hobbyist program. Join HPUG and you can get a FOC license for most things. To round things off. What is the situation with pdp-8's? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa Sent: 04 May 2007 18:22 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Mentec Al Kossow wrote: > It sounds like Zane (maybe Tim Shoppa) have been in contact with them > recently, so there is no need for yet another set of people to be > involved. If "Recently" is "2000", then yes, I worked extensively with Mentec to make three sets of hobbyist CD's (RT-11, RSX-11, RSTS/E) using my archives and their archives to get bootable kits for emulators. > As I understand it, they have no interest in offering a low cost > license no matter how many people ask about it. Internally, there was interest, and I discussed it with several at Mentec in the 1996-2001 timeframe as I worked with them on other projects, and it got as far as them having a web page with pictures of the CD's I made for them. But no, not all the legal barriers were jumped, so it never really happened. I don't think anyone truly understands the legal barriers that Mentec faces. They do not own all the stuff free and clear to do with as they wish. In the late 90's, they could not sell a copy of any PDP-11 OS unless they also sold DEC's printed manuals with it, and they were having extreme troubles getting DEC's printed manuals from DEC's print shop. The folks in Mentec who were most enthusiastic about it were really nice, energetic people. I don't have any sore feelings about the work I did back then (I had a blast) but I don't have as much interest in the subject as I did ten years ago. Being out at the CHM last year rekindled it a little... but there's no shortage of truly redistributable and very-few-condition other stuff that I'm worrying about now. Tim. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri May 4 18:49:03 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 00:49:03 +0100 Subject: That horrible computer foam Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I have noticed something similar but related to the stick on feet found on the underside of many computers and periperials. They turn to the most awful semi-liquid goo. Its difficult to remove from their original position. Any that gets on hands or clothing is the devils own job to remove. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus Sent: 04 May 2007 21:51 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: That horrible computer foam As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed that some pieces of equipment like printers and the like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, squshy material that does not spring back. It also crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, along with the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry goo. On the CDC drives I just picked up, the entire inside of them is covered in this foam, some of it is starting to come off, or has stuck to cables and such inside. A couple smaller chunks of it literally fell off one part of the cover, the glue only holding the particular particles of the foam to which it was attached, and the rest of the foam falling away. What is the best thing to do about this, especially in something as sensitive as a disk drive? Should I remove it? What's the best method? Is there something I can use to replace it? Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. Any ideas? Thanks! -Ian From jrr at flippers.com Fri May 4 19:22:00 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:22:00 -0700 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 1:50 PM -0700 5/4/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed >that some pieces of equipment like printers and the >like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most >likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam >to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, >squshy material that does not spring back. It also >crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, along with >the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry >goo. > One of my first summer jobs - back in the late 60s - was at IBM in Toronto. The job was to scrape off the nasty foam from the inside of keypunch cases before they were sent down stream to be repainted... Sigh... John :-#)# From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 5 02:11:40 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 08:11:40 +0100 Subject: Moving heavy hardware - or why not to put big CDC drives into aChevyVenture In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> References: <0JHI00MW3SVFKVL7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <51ea77730705041251o71e6cb47mb319697c78ca1803@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1178349101.10579.11.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-05-04 at 14:51 -0500, Jason T wrote: > > > From: Mr Ian Primus > > > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > > >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in > > >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... I shifted a Microvax II rack containing a big tape drive and a pair of Fujitsu Eagles, a Microvax 3300, a grey wall, and various other large boxes of cables, disks, spares, books and other random things in a 1988 Citro?n CX. I'd left the rear seat squab out and placed the rack on its back on the floor, then filled it with the grey wall. The skins for the rack went between the rack body and the seats, the MVII and Fujitsu Eagles went in the boot (despite appearances, it's not a hatchback - that huge concave rear window is fixed in place). The tape drive went on the passenger's seat, with some more grey wall, and the MV3300 went on the floor in front of it. Then everything else was crammed in wherever it would fit. It took nearly a full minute for the suspension to come up to normal height when I started. I was expecting a pop and a puddle of green hydraulic oil at any moment... Funny thing is, I drove about 250 miles to pick it up at a more-or-less steady 85mph, and got 32mpg on the way down. I drove back at the same speed, loaded with nearly 750kg of stuff at the same speed, and got... 32mpg! Load doesn't seem to affect it at all. Gordon From cc at corti-net.de Sat May 5 04:31:05 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 11:31:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Emulex P4000 Terminal servers - End of lifed - Free software! In-Reply-To: <000501c78e59$f3796040$0800a8c0@asus> References: <000501c78e59$f3796040$0800a8c0@asus> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 May 2007, Moriamez.jc wrote: > Hello, I live in France and I am very happy seeing your message on P4000 > servers end of lifed I have 2*emulex p2516 and the software is end of > lifed, do you know what can i do ? thanks for all First: Learn to quote Second: Go to ftp.emulex.com/pub/pxxxx/ and look for the boot images and other support files (the PAKs are now all included and free) Christian From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat May 5 05:04:12 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 07:04:12 -0300 Subject: That horrible computer foam References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > WORST design "feature" --- the boards are mounting to the inside side of > the cabinet and the PCB layout has the battery and the top center of the > board which over course eventually deteriorated, burst open and oozes > battery acid to all of the adjacent components and traces. That's Who would think that some 30 years later it would still be used and collected? ;o) But remember: Vinegar is your friend. Use vinegar to clean the electrolyte from the battery and you'll be happy ;o) Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 5 05:25:33 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 03:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <322981.91040.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I have noticed something similar but related to > the stick on feet > found on the underside of many computers and > periperials. They turn to > the most awful semi-liquid goo. Its difficult to > remove from their > original position. Any that gets on hands or > clothing is the devils own > job to remove. > > Rod Yes. Sun feet do this. I see it a lot in my collecting - but last week I ran into it at work. I went to slide the Sun Type 5 keyboard on one of our servers forward and it wouldn't. It was glued to the top of the rack with the feet goo. Best thing that I have found to remove this is Get Off, from the makers of the Blow Off canned air. That stuff works GREAT. Hmm, maybe that will work on the foam... -Ian From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sat May 5 07:01:29 2007 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 08:01:29 -0400 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast - Hosstraders -NEARFEST In-Reply-To: <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> I'm not selling, so I'll just have to drop in on people. I'm staying with three friends at the University of Dayton. All four of us have been around computers for a long time, although I have the most legacy hardware. (and we are all hams, of course) You might find me hanging around the American Red Cross exhibit, as I am a Manager of Communications for them and I'll probably put in a few hours helping out. I'll certainly visit anyone that I see posted here, with the exception of calling my cell phone, I don't know of any public bulletin board where we could contact each other at last minute? On yet another post somebody mentioned the demise of Hosstraders and the replacement by NEARFest in New Hampshire. Well I went yesterday and I thought it was great. Lots of vendors and pretty well attended. I'll bet today will be even better. Joe Heck, K1LBG Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 04 May 2007 19:49, Marvin Johnston wrote: > >>If anyone knows the spaces where they will be selling (parking), post >>it here and we can go and harass each other :). My guess is we won't >>know until the week before. Last year, Patrick Finnigan (sp?) was >>there and down about 100 yards from where I was. I got a chance to >>meet a number of others on this list and it is really great to put >>names with faces! If possible, why not plan a dinner get-together on >>Saturday night for the ClassicCmp group! Anyone interested? > > > I've got spaces 3214/3415 (they're back to back) this year. I'll have a > lot of old (and some newer) computer stuff, random electronic things > with tube in them, and test equipment for sale. > > Pat - KD9VAX From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat May 5 09:04:56 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 10:04:56 -0400 Subject: Moving heavy hardware In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.1.20070504210735.01f22db8@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <200705051405.l45E53Ut023729@keith.ezwind.net> I went over one weekend to visit my parents to find my dad had moved a milling machine and a metal lathe into the basement. I took one look at the stairs and asked how in hell did he get them down there? His response was a few friends along with the help of their good friend gravity! He predicted would not be so helpful some day when we had to figure out how to get them back out. Needless to say he died unexpectedly and I spent a "weekend to remember" involving block and tackle along with some long 2x10's and braces, getting them back up and out, so mom could sell the house. The moral of this story is, someday your loved ones will have to deal with your dead weight collections and gravity is only your friend going down stairs, dragging heavy hardware back up requires a lot more effort and structural strength to the stairs. So unless you want to hear your loved ones curse you in the grave, don't just pretend they will know what to do, leave with a valid exit strategy! Back under my rock.... My back is flaring up just thinking about it again :) Bob Bradlee On Fri, 04 May 2007 21:09:03 -0400, Douglas Taylor wrote: >At 03:51 PM 5/4/2007, you wrote: >>> > From: Mr Ian Primus >>> > Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:55:02 -0700 (PDT) >>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> > >>> >I'm sure others have stories about loading hardware in >>> >and out of vehicles... I'll post pictures later... >>> > >>> >-Ian >> >>My largest move in the smallest vehicle was 16 Sparcstations (4,5,10 >>variety) + a couple boxes of cables creatively crammed, tetris-style, >>into the trunk of an '84 Mercedes 240D. It wasn't until I got home >>that I realized the frame was rubbing the tires when I drove :) >This topic is very important to 'hobbyist' machinists. Take a look at some >of the moving experiences at >http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/ >Doug From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 11:17:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 09:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book Message-ID: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-COMPUTER-BOOK-LOT-Unix- Programming-IBM-PC-6_W0QQitemZ140114169493QQihZ004QQ categoryZ378QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem part of a lot. The edition I learnt assembler on was blue, this one is red. Not sure if they're different editions (the 1st would be ideal), but this one is probably early enough to be as useful. A tried and true text IMHO. I had tried others, but they all stunk by comparison. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 11:18:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 09:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need info on old eprom programmer Message-ID: <714736.44073.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Spectrum Dynamics model 550 memory programmer. Any docs or anything else? Real old. I haven't even attacked it yet. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 5 11:31:33 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 09:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070505093050.K73213@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 5 May 2007, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-COMPUTER-BOOK-LOT-Unix- > Programming-IBM-PC-6_W0QQitemZ140114169493QQihZ004QQ > categoryZ378QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > part of a lot. The edition I learnt assembler on was > blue, this one is red. Not sure if they're different > editions (the 1st would be ideal), but this one is > probably early enough to be as useful. A tried and > true text IMHO. I had tried others, but they all stunk > by comparison. . . . to recommend a specific book, title and/or author would be helpful From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 11:43:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 09:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <20070505093050.K73213@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <887577.25523.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> > . . . to recommend a specific book, title and/or > author would be helpful right-o. IBM PC Assembler Language and Programming, Peter Abel...1st edition *preferable*. Turns out with the edition in the auction they changed the title to "...Assembly Language and...". That looks like it might be a 2nd edition, or maybe just a revised 1st edition. Regardless, you can get the very 1st edition dirt cheap on Amazon. No need to bid on that guys auction. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 5 11:49:21 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 11:49:21 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast - Hosstraders -NEARFEST In-Reply-To: <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> I'd suggest a group SMS text messaging service. txtmob.com is the big one I know of, but it's failure is that you still have to send the messages from the web page - users can't text directly to the group from their phones/PDAs. Despite this, I created a Dayton07 group on there that we could try to use. I have basic web services on my PDA, but many don't. If anyone knows of a better system, please suggest it. -- jht On 5/5/07, joe heck wrote: > I'll certainly visit anyone that I see posted here, with the exception > of calling my cell phone, I don't know of any public bulletin board > where we could contact each other at last minute? From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 11:50:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 09:50:56 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 9:17, Chris M wrote: > part of a lot. The edition I learnt assembler on was > blue, this one is red. Not sure if they're different > editions (the 1st would be ideal), but this one is > probably early enough to be as useful. A tried and > true text IMHO. I had tried others, but they all stunk > by comparison. "IBM PC Assembly Language and Programming" by Peter Abel $87.20 at Amazon, discounted from $102. Given the price, this sounds like a textbook. Obviously, one of the Amazon.com reviewers doesn't share your view: "It is, bar none, the single worst computer language and programming resource I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. Not only does it lack critical details about methodology, it fails to include comprehensible explanations about the examples already provided. If it were simply that it was incomprehensible it might still be acceptable as a resource later on when clearer and more concise means of learning the subject are used. But this book contains more out and out flaws than the Beta release of Windows XP." I'm not in a position to comment on texts on assembly programming, never having owned one myself. I've always used the reference manuals for the computer system I was working with to learn it-- which, IMOHO, is the best way to get an in-depth understanding of how to program a machine. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 5 12:06:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 10:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> References: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070505100042.I73213@shell.lmi.net> I've taught PC Assembly Language using Abel. It was reasonably good, but did not provide enough hand-holding for beginners who are still struggling with "what is a program?", and what the assembler, linker, exe2bin, etc. are. For beginners, I prefer to start with Lafore (Waite group) and then switch books once they can put their name on the screen, count, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com http://merritt.edu/~fcisin/CIS20.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 5 12:11:18 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 10:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9775 (BZ7Ex) hard drive manual sought Message-ID: <330990.24828.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've recently accquired a CDC 9775 hard drive. (675mb fixed media) It's going to need some cleaning to get it running, and I need to know some info on how to set it up. Most importantly, the heads are locked, and according to a warning note taped to the HDA, so is the spindle. I want to find out how to _properly_ do this. Unlocking the heads looks simple, but I don't see a spindle lock anywhere. Also, this drive doesn't use the typical little plugs to change the ID, so I am not sure how it is set. Bitsavers has the operator's manual, but I really need the service manual, or at least the installation manual. Thanks! -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 5 12:11:18 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 10:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC 9775 (BZ7Ex) hard drive manual sought Message-ID: <330990.24828.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've recently accquired a CDC 9775 hard drive. (675mb fixed media) It's going to need some cleaning to get it running, and I need to know some info on how to set it up. Most importantly, the heads are locked, and according to a warning note taped to the HDA, so is the spindle. I want to find out how to _properly_ do this. Unlocking the heads looks simple, but I don't see a spindle lock anywhere. Also, this drive doesn't use the typical little plugs to change the ID, so I am not sure how it is set. Bitsavers has the operator's manual, but I really need the service manual, or at least the installation manual. Thanks! -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 5 12:17:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 13:17:08 -0400 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast - Hosstraders -NEARFEST In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/5/07, Jason T wrote: > If anyone knows of a better system, please suggest it. I don't have a good alternative, but I bought my phone seven years ago and it only takes calls - no texting. If you decide to use SMS, enjoy, but I won't see any of the traffic. I hope to be there, but I have to work out some scheduling logistics. :-/ I'm doing hourly contracting right now, and taking 8 hours unpaid leave for Friday is rather expensive. -ethan From marvin at west.net Sat May 5 12:37:50 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 10:37:50 -0700 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast Message-ID: <463CC0EE.A52A9216@west.net> I just got the wireless cell service internet that I can use from my laptop, so this would probably work. How about some clues on how to join/use/etc. this service. Tim's "trailing edge technology" is my motto as well, and I've never heard of or used these services. > From: "Jason T" > I'd suggest a group SMS text messaging service. txtmob.com is the big > one I know of, but it's failure is that you still have to send the > messages from the web page - users can't text directly to the group > from their phones/PDAs. Despite this, I created a Dayton07 group on > there that we could try to use. I have basic web services on my PDA, > but many don't. > > If anyone knows of a better system, please suggest it. From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 5 13:00:46 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 12:00:46 -0600 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 05 May 2007 09:50:56 -0700. <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <463C5380.25730.222A5959 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I'm not in a position to comment on texts on assembly programming, > never having owned one myself. I've always used the reference > manuals for the computer system I was working with to learn it-- > which, IMOHO, is the best way to get an in-depth understanding of how > to program a machine. I tried that with x86 and while the IA-32 documentation is the ultimate reference, its not very good for learning. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 5 13:01:42 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 13:01:42 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast In-Reply-To: <463CC0EE.A52A9216@west.net> References: <463CC0EE.A52A9216@west.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730705051101s2b4fb697p95767ab2b9155ae4@mail.gmail.com> The general idea is everyone register with the site and gives their cel/pda/etc numbers, which are kept private. Users can join groups, Dayton07 in this case. Users can then go onto the site and send a text message to every group member's phone via the web. What would be much more useful is if group members could send text messages from their device to the central server, and then have it distributed to the group. I'll keep looking for such a service. On 5/5/07, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I just got the wireless cell service internet that I can use from my laptop, so > this would probably work. How about some clues on how to join/use/etc. this > service. Tim's "trailing edge technology" is my motto as well, and I've never > heard of or used these services. > From ohh at drizzle.com Sat May 5 13:27:42 2007 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 11:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <463B5E9F.6890.1E6DCF02@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Regarding bad-tempered disintegrating foam: Chuck Guzis wrote, in part: > On 4 May 2007 at 15:56, Billy Pettit wrote: > > > 1. The easiest is clean up as much as you can and glue a new sheet of foam > > over the mess. You should be able to buy panels of acoustic foam in > > hardware stores. > But won't this simply push the same problem out a few more years > before you're looking at it again? If the plan is indeed to replace the foam (and I kind of prefer that myself, since it keeps the machine more like it was when originally put together), you could consider replacing it with ethafoam. It doesn't have the breakdown problems of regular foam - in fact, it's archivally safe for museum uses - and you can get it in a variety of sheet forms, including anti-static versions. http://www.dow.com/perffoam/market/products/ -O.- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 14:40:13 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <417592.78084.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > "IBM PC Assembly Language and Programming" by Peter > Abel $87.20 at > Amazon, discounted from $102. Given the price, this > sounds like a > textbook. I've heard that later editions weren't as good (???). This is why I specifically recommend the first or early editions (I only have experience with the very first edition - IBM PC Assembler (not Assembly) Language and Programming. By the price, that is a very recent edition. Maybe the later editions *try* to tie assembler into a Win32 environment. Maybe he didn't do as good a job as he did introducing the subject in a plain old DOS environment. > Obviously, one of the Amazon.com reviewers doesn't > share your view: > > "It is, bar none, the single worst computer language > and programming > resource I have ever had the misfortune to > encounter. Not only does > it lack critical details about methodology, it fails > to include > comprehensible explanations about the examples > already provided. If > it were simply that it was incomprehensible it might > still be > acceptable as a resource later on when clearer and > more concise means > of learning the subject are used. But this book > contains more out and > out flaws than the Beta release of Windows XP." Possibly this reviewer was entirely new to programming. I am of the persuasion that assembler could be used to teach rudimentary programming concepts, and in fact may be more useful in the long run (kind of like the reason they persuaded me to take Latin in my first year of high school, all the other Romantic languages would come easier. No further comments at this time though...). Maybe I'm quirkier then the typical rube, dunno. Could it be said I'm smarter...LOL LOL I'll answer that myself. No freaking way! I actually did take a course subsequent to teaching myself the subject (?). Assembly language typically blows people away. I remember this one lady (~30 yoa) complaining that she didn't have a clue what was going on, yet scored 95's and such on the tests! The teacher sort of droned I'll admit, but this one older fella (read gray all the way) was doing an absolute stellar job of picking up the material. The kids don't have a monopoly on this stuff, I don't care what anyone says. > I'm not in a position to comment on texts on > assembly programming, > never having owned one myself. I've always used the > reference > manuals for the computer system I was working with > to learn it-- > which, IMOHO, is the best way to get an in-depth > understanding of how > to program a machine. Uh, well, if you're learning assembler from the get go from tech refs, you're a better man then me. I know that's precisely how many gurus did it, but us kids tended to be lazier or what have you. ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat May 5 14:46:38 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 20:46:38 +0100 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <200705042309.l44N8RaA039537@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705042309.l44N8RaA039537@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <83A4ED5F-2708-450C-880F-3FA1406EF9CA@microspot.co.uk> On 5 May, 2007, at 00:09, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 17 > Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 13:50:54 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mr Ian Primus > > As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed > that some pieces of equipment like printers and the > like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most > likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam > to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, > squshy material that does not spring back. For the ink jet printers, beware that when they clean their print heads, some models dump the excess ink into this foam or into something like blotting paper. The older and larger models have an excess ink bottle, and after many many hours operation they will ask you to empty that bottle. Usually this is based on a calculation of how much ink is there, rather than a level sensor, so if you tell the printer you have emptied it, but haven't actually done it, it will eventually overflow and make a real mess of you carpet. Some small printers so the same calculation of when the foam/blotting paper is fully saturated and ask you to change it. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 14:47:20 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <20070505100042.I73213@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <642226.39097.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > I've taught PC Assembly Language using Abel. It was > reasonably good, but > did not provide enough hand-holding for beginners > who are still struggling > with "what is a program?", and what the assembler, > linker, exe2bin, etc. > are. Like I said in previous post, I feel assembler can be taught as rudimentary programming, but it takes additional time and effort in preparatory steps (binary, hex,...). Usually it makes more sense to start out with some other compiled language, or as is usually done QBasic or VB. I'm not partial to learning programming with an IDE though. > For beginners, I prefer to start with Lafore (Waite > group) and then switch > books once they can put their name on the screen, > count, etc. I spent 28 bucks on a Waite Group book before I found Abel at a library. The author's name wasn't Lafore, but this particular one was terrible. I don't have the text in front of me, but I felt there was something more logical about the way he laid stuff out. Learning assembler on a 16-bit pc isn't the easiest platform either. I know of one guy who learned it on some IBM iron, don't know if that architecture had segmented addressing like a pc, but he said he went through the whole course, passed yet didn't have a clue, and the next semester (or was it a year later) it all just clicked. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 5 14:51:20 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <731642.40014.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > I tried that with x86 and while the IA-32 > documentation is the > ultimate reference, its not very good for learning. If you're looking to learn 32 bit Windows type assembly, maybe try "the Assembly Language Master Book" by Vlad Pirogov. I own it, but haven't spent much time with it yet. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 5 14:57:56 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <20070505093050.K73213@shell.lmi.net> References: <591706.44595.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <20070505093050.K73213@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 May 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 5 May 2007, Chris M wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-COMPUTER-BOOK-LOT-Unix- > > Programming-IBM-PC-6_W0QQitemZ140114169493QQihZ004QQ > > categoryZ378QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > part of a lot. The edition I learnt assembler on was > > blue, this one is red. Not sure if they're different > > editions (the 1st would be ideal), but this one is > > probably early enough to be as useful. A tried and > > true text IMHO. I had tried others, but they all stunk > > by comparison. > > . . . to recommend a specific book, title and/or author would be helpful I took an IBM PC assembly class from one George Driver who said that he was tired of mediocre texts on assembly, so he wrote his own. I still have it and highly recommend it. I thought it wasn't very widely used, but then I found this page: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?&isbn=0314010408&nsa=1 Amazon has several copies as well. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat May 5 15:14:21 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 21:14:21 +0100 Subject: Punch card racks In-Reply-To: <200705040445.l444ihBS026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705040445.l444ihBS026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <970C4436-1BDA-417B-B4EA-8725A777666D@microspot.co.uk> Any thoughts of where (in England) to get the metal racks of drawers which used to be used to store 80 column punched cards. There must have been thousands made but I have looked for them on eBay and no luck. I don't suppose they are still made unless they are used for some other purpose (like bank notes). I have seen some a bit bigger but they have pop rivets poking into the storage space which would damage the cards. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 5 15:56:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 21:56:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at May 5, 7 07:04:12 am Message-ID: > > > WORST design "feature" --- the boards are mounting to the inside side of > > the cabinet and the PCB layout has the battery and the top center of the > > board which over course eventually deteriorated, burst open and oozes > > battery acid to all of the adjacent components and traces. That's > > Who would think that some 30 years later it would still be used and > collected? ;o) But remember: Vinegar is your friend. Use vinegar to clean > the electrolyte from the battery and you'll be happy ;o) For alkaline electrolyte batteries, which includes NiCds, you want a chemically weak acid. VInegar is fine, as you say, but I find a solution of citric acid to be as good, and it smells nicer :-) It's pretty safe on PCBs and electronic components (at least, it'll do no more damage than the electrolyte has done). It's also pretty harmless to you. You can get citric acid from pharmacies, and I beleive home brewing shops (for people who make their own beer) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 17:12:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 15:12:12 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <417592.78084.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com>, <417592.78084.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 12:40, Chris M wrote: > > Uh, well, if you're learning assembler from the get > go from tech refs, you're a better man then me. I know > that's precisely how many gurus did it, but us kids > tended to be lazier or what have you. Actually, assembly was a step up. I started by programming machine language. The sad thing is that architectures are far less varied than they were 30-40 years ago. Maybe that's a good thing; maybe not. I note that Jeff Duntemann's got a book out called "Step by Step Assembly". I'm not familiar with it, but do know Jeff's style of writing from his DDJ articles. He's got a nice folksy feel to his prose so the assembly book might be good. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 17:20:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 15:20:39 -0700 Subject: PCW 8256 PSU questions Message-ID: <463CA0C7.3534.2358359F@cclist.sydex.com> I got the Amstrad PCW8256 yesterday and plunked a CF diskette into it The disk spun and then the screen went dark (no beeps). I pulled my screwdriver out and opened it up. If I disconnect the CPU and check the voltages, I find that the +24v is present, but the +12 reads about 2.5v and the +5 is 0v. I'm not eager to do much with the unit, but I thought I'd give repair a shot before consigning it to the "scavenge and dump" pile. Does anyone have any ideas on what might be wrong or (gasp) even a schematic of the monitor/PSU board? I got the PCW for the disk drive, which, with a new belt appears to work just fine on a PC. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat May 5 17:33:21 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 15:33:21 -0700 Subject: Punch card racks In-Reply-To: <970C4436-1BDA-417B-B4EA-8725A777666D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200705040445.l444ihBS026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> <970C4436-1BDA-417B-B4EA-8725A777666D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <463D0631.7090801@msm.umr.edu> Roger Holmes wrote: > > I have seen some a bit bigger but they have pop rivets poking into > the storage space which would damage the cards. Look for people who process snap away full size credit card forms. they were the same size as 80 column hollerith cards. I have two that I use for tool boxes, but I'm in LA and don't really want to get rid of them anyway. Big thing with card drawers is that you could pull out the drawers and climb up them at least the ones we had. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 5 20:02:06 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 19:02:06 -0600 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 05 May 2007 15:12:12 -0700. <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Actually, assembly was a step up. I started by programming machine > language. The sad thing is that architectures are far less varied > than they were 30-40 years ago. Maybe that's a good thing; maybe > not. Au contraire. "Architecture" these days is whatever you want it to be cooked into an FPGA. Maybe you don't consider that architecture, but the hardware possibilities available to you for low cost these days are limited only by your imagination and gate count. Of course there's a trade-off between speed and versatility but FPGA designs are *very* popular for custom architectures these days. > I note that Jeff Duntemann's got a book out called "Step by Step > Assembly". I'm not familiar with it, but do know Jeff's style of > writing from his DDJ articles. He's got a nice folksy feel to his > prose so the assembly book might be good. I've also read this book trying to learn assembly. The problem with the "folksy style" is that it just takes up too much time and space being folksy and not enough time and space covering the details. IMO this book isn't worth buying. Fortunately I spent very little money on it by purchasing it as a remainder. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 20:32:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:32:32 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 19:02, Richard wrote: > Au contraire. "Architecture" these days is whatever you want it to be > cooked into an FPGA. Maybe you don't consider that architecture, but > the hardware possibilities available to you for low cost these days > are limited only by your imagination and gate count. Of course > there's a trade-off between speed and versatility but FPGA designs are > *very* popular for custom architectures these days. I was speaking of production computer architectures, not one-off or special-purpose designs. Something for which you'd likely find a book to learn assembly language. Sure you can program an FPGA anyway you want, within limits. But they're not sold as computer systems. And even so, most are binary 2's complement wordsize-a-multiple-of-8-bits designs. Arguing that you can program an FPGA to look like anything you'd like seems to me to be akin to saying that one can microprogram a 360/30 to have any old instruction set imaginable or program an emulator to run on a DG Nova to emulate any instruction set that one cared for. Cheers, Chuck From stuart at retrocomputing.tv Sat May 5 07:43:24 2007 From: stuart at retrocomputing.tv (stuart birchall) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 13:43:24 +0100 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. thanks, stu From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 5 07:58:29 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 13:58:29 +0100 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1178369909.10579.20.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-05-04 at 18:08 -0400, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah, no kidding.... > > In video arcade machines - games like Pole Position boards all had the > WORST design "feature" --- the boards are mounting to the inside side of > the cabinet and the PCB layout has the battery and the top center of the > board which over course eventually deteriorated, burst open and oozes > battery acid to all of the adjacent components and traces. That's I've just replaced the battery and repaired some eaten tracks in my Korg Polysix synth. That's exactly what had happened - the battery electrolyte has eaten its way out of the battery, run down its leg, and attacked one of the buffers for the data lines. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 5 12:06:21 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:06:21 +0100 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast - Hosstraders -NEARFEST In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1178384781.10579.33.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-05-05 at 11:49 -0500, Jason T wrote: > I'd suggest a group SMS text messaging service. txtmob.com is the big > one I know of, but it's failure is that you still have to send the > messages from the web page - users can't text directly to the group > from their phones/PDAs. Despite this, I created a Dayton07 group on > there that we could try to use. I have basic web services on my PDA, > but many don't. Can you write a script that will post a message on their page to be SMSed out, when your server receives an email? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 5 16:38:15 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 22:38:15 +0100 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <642226.39097.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <642226.39097.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1178401095.7452.9.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-05-05 at 12:47 -0700, Chris M wrote: > --- Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I've taught PC Assembly Language using Abel. It was > > reasonably good, but > > did not provide enough hand-holding for beginners > > who are still struggling > > with "what is a program?", and what the assembler, > > linker, exe2bin, etc. > > are. > > Like I said in previous post, I feel assembler can be > taught as rudimentary programming, but it takes > additional time and effort in preparatory steps > (binary, hex,...). Usually it makes more sense to > start out with some other compiled language, or as is > usually done QBasic or VB. I'm not partial to learning > programming with an IDE though. There's no reason why it should be, though. You could come up with some hypothetical BCD-based architecture. Gordon From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 5 21:42:46 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 22:42:46 -0400 Subject: 8-bit ISA ethernet cards Message-ID: <200705052242.46977.pat@computer-refuge.org> A few weeks ago, some people in here were talking about putting network cards in IBM PCs or XTs or something... As it happens, I ran across a box of 3com 3c503 network cards (AUI and 10BaseT ports, 8 bit ISA card). If anyone wants one, lemme know, I'm asking $5+shipping, and I'll have the box with me at Dayton if you want to harass me about them, then. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat May 5 21:48:16 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 22:48:16 -0400 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <463D41F0.5030508@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi All > I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the >rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they >seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site >that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. No >mention of pdp anything. > > Jerome Fine replies: First of all, please remember I am ONLY interested in RT-11. And while I have had contact with and used a bit of RSX-11 and a very extensive amount of RSTS/E, I was never responsible of a system which ran RSX-11 or RSTS/E. Which is the primary reason that I never became proficient enough to maintain either an RSX-11 or a RSTS/E system. On the other hand, I may now know RT-11 as well as some of the top RT-11 developers knew RT-11 during the 1980s. As for why Mentec no longer actively supports any of the PDP-11 systems, I venture to guess that it is no longer profitable. >As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around how >RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have >not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they could >help us poor pdp preservers. > Mentec has helped the poor PDP-11 preservers. Unfortunately, it is not obvious since the help is more in not causing those poor PDP-11 preservers any difficulties as opposed to being proactive by making the operating systems generally available such as Borland products are at present. Also an example is the VMS hobby program which Mentec does not have. In addition, as others have mentioned in their replies, it seems very doubtful that Mentec really did "totally own" the PDP-11 operating systems. Unfortunately, it seems highly probable that the terms of the agreement between Mentec and DEC required the parties to maintain confidentiality since I can't see why those terms have never been publicly disclosed - unless those terms were so detrimental to the users that neither party wanted to admit the mistakes in the lack of a PDP-11 hobby program in the face of the VMS hobby license program. But what did happen did, what did not happen did not - the stories and interpretations that many of us make up about what happened are probably 90% fiction and are no longer even important. BUT, Mentec did make older versions of the operating systems available for legal non-commercial use under what was at the time a DEC owned emulator. It certainly seemed questionable at the time and it may be even more questionable at present, but Mentec has chosen to make no challenge to the use of those older versions of the operating systems under the current name of that DEC emulator which has evolved to become SIMH. In addition, Mentec also seems to be ignoring the legal requirement for a transfer of any operating system license to the new owner of any old PDP-11 hardware so long as, at least as far I can interpret, the new owner is non-commercial. Certainly there have been numerous discussions on classiccmp (one is going on right now about a single RL02 system) over PDP-11 use of the RT-11 operating system (i.e. NOT under SIMH) and I can't remember any recent protests from Mentec in this regard. Any finally, while the RSX-11 and RSTS/E operating systems are much more tightly controlled and not very easily available, almost 10 years ago, Megan Gentry, a former RT-11 developer, put a zip file of V05.03 of RT-11 up for general download with the explicit permission of the individuals who had to provide that permission. V05.03 of RT-11 is the last binary distribution allowed under the DEC emulator and by inference under SIMH. There is also a CD version (an ISO file) which contains as many as possible of the RT-11 binary versions as could reasonably be found for all of V05.03 of RT-11 and prior. Any for those individuals who are legally licensed to run the latest version of RT-11, V05.07 released in October of 1998 or just under 9 years ago, there is also a CD containing the rest of the RT-11 binary distributions. The latter CD was requested by a university who was legally licensed to use and already had a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 and was legally entitled to a backup of all of the RT-11 binary distributions. So - I don't really think that there are any "poor pdp preservers" as far as RT-11 is concerned. In point of fact, I have personally found ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in the last 5 years in: (a) Preserving RT-11, (b) Fixing any bugs in RT-11 (c) Making any enhancements in RT-11 Of course, for individuals in the know, most of them already have sufficiently preserved what they want of RT-11. On the other hand, even though I have made a number of vital bug fixes to RT-11 (for problems that crash RT-11) along with other minor problems as well as some extensive enhancements, I have yet to find anyone who is even interested in a Y3K for RT-11, let alone someone who would be interested in participating. Of course, Y3K may already have been done, the enhancements that I have already completed may have been duplicated along with many other enhancements and the bugs fixed as well and distributed to the users of RT-11. Perhaps I just don't know that it has all occurred without a word of it reaching my eyes and ears. But, as a result, I have place (a), (b) and (c) into a lower priority and focused on attempting something even less useful, i.e. confirming the value of pi(10^18) using a sieve program running under RT-11 with a view to attempting to determine pi(10^24). When I find that it will take a million years to finish the calculations for pi(10^24) with current computers, I may shift back to (a), (b) and (c) if I can't find something even less useful than knowing the value for pi(10^24). On the other hand, if anyone is really interested, drop me a line. If anyone really knows why Mentec does not have a hobby program for PDP-11 operating systems, let us know. Just don't complain about RT-11 and Mentec since nothing that Mentec seems to be doing at present interferes with "poor pdp preservers" as far as RT-11 is concerned. In 16 more years, which will be 25 years after V05.07 of RT-11 was released, I very seriously doubt that Mentec will care if every hobby user who wants a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 is using it on real DEC hardware, let alone if there is a running emulator on what goes for a PC in the year 2023 when I will be 84 years old if I am still kicking. As for commercial sites still running RT-11, if they don't already have the Y2K compliant V05.07 of RT-11, then I very much doubt that they will require V05.07 in the year 2023. And if those commercial sites are managing with the current bugs in RT-11 9 years after V05.07 was released, well ... Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 5 21:51:23 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 19:51:23 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: At 1:43 PM +0100 5/5/07, stuart birchall wrote: >Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to >attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. Keep an eye out for old 10Base-T hubs, many of them had a 10Base-2 connection. Even now I'm guessing that they are much cheaper than a media converter (I know how much I paid for my media converter). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat May 5 21:53:05 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 23:53:05 -0300 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com><463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com><06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <082501c78f89$baf10e40$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to > attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. An old 8-port hub is also a nice converter...plug the hub on the network and you have a thinnet port! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat May 5 22:02:20 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 00:02:20 -0300 Subject: That horrible computer foam References: <200705042309.l44N8RaA039537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <83A4ED5F-2708-450C-880F-3FA1406EF9CA@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <083801c78f8b$2bd69de0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > For the ink jet printers, beware that when they clean their print heads, > some models dump the excess ink into this foam or into something like > blotting paper. The older and larger models have an excess ink bottle, > and after many many hours operation they will ask you to empty that > bottle. Usually this is based on a calculation of how much ink is there, > rather than a level sensor, so if you tell the printer you have emptied > it, but haven't actually done it, it will eventually overflow and make a > real mess of you carpet. Some small printers so the same calculation of > when the foam/blotting paper is fully saturated and ask you to change it. Xerox were champions on that problems. Field Technicians used a syringe and a needle to empty spent ink tanks! From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 5 22:10:32 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 23:10:32 -0400 Subject: Punch card racks In-Reply-To: <970C4436-1BDA-417B-B4EA-8725A777666D@microspot.co.uk> References: <200705040445.l444ihBS026231@dewey.classiccmp.org> <970C4436-1BDA-417B-B4EA-8725A777666D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <200705052310.32934.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 May 2007 16:14, Roger Holmes wrote: > Any thoughts of where (in England) to get the metal racks of drawers which > used to be used to store 80 column punched cards. There must have been > thousands made but I have looked for them on eBay and no luck. I don't > suppose they are still made unless they are used for some other purpose > (like bank notes). I have seen some a bit bigger but they have pop rivets > poking into the storage space which would damage the cards. Not in England, so this isn't going to be of much help to you, but I do happen to have a couple of those that I plan to get rid of in the near future, if I can work out the hassle I'm currently having with the storage facility they're currently sitting in. Located in south central PA, if anybody's interested. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 5 22:21:30 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 23:21:30 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200705052321.31135.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 May 2007 22:51, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:43 PM +0100 5/5/07, stuart birchall wrote: > >Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to > >attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. > > Keep an eye out for old 10Base-T hubs, many of them had a 10Base-2 > connection. Even now I'm guessing that they are much cheaper than a > media converter (I know how much I paid for my media converter). Got a couple of those kicking around I'm looking to get rid of, though I don't recall offhand whether they have that connection or not... They're mentioned at http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/w4s.html . -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat May 5 22:34:32 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 00:34:32 -0300 Subject: Big iron in FPGA. Was: Re: wonderful assembly language book References: >, <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <085101c78f8f$78f5abd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Arguing that you can program an FPGA to look like anything you'd like > seems to me to be akin to saying that one can microprogram a 360/30 > to have any old instruction set imaginable or program an emulator to > run on a DG Nova to emulate any instruction set that one cared for. Nice question...any "big iron" implementation in FPGA? S/360? S/370? PDP? VAX? Whatever? From ploopster at gmail.com Sat May 5 22:41:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 23:41:57 -0400 Subject: Big iron in FPGA. Was: Re: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <085101c78f8f$78f5abd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: >, <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7@cclist.sydex.com> <085101c78f8f$78f5abd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <463D4E85.5090302@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Arguing that you can program an FPGA to look like anything you'd like >> seems to me to be akin to saying that one can microprogram a 360/30 >> to have any old instruction set imaginable or program an emulator to >> run on a DG Nova to emulate any instruction set that one cared for. > > Nice question...any "big iron" implementation in FPGA? S/360? S/370? > PDP? VAX? Whatever? As far as IBM stuff, not that I've heard of, but I don't think S/360 would be that hard to do. Even early S/370 wouldn't be that difficult. But later S/370 (and S/360/67 probably) started getting complicated. Peace... Sridhar From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat May 5 22:59:51 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 23:59:51 -0400 Subject: Big iron in FPGA. Was: Re: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <085101c78f8f$78f5abd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE@cclist.sydex.com> <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7@cclist.sydex.com> <085101c78f8f$78f5abd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 5/5/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > Arguing that you can program an FPGA to look like anything you'd like > > seems to me to be akin to saying that one can microprogram a 360/30 > > to have any old instruction set imaginable or program an emulator to > > run on a DG Nova to emulate any instruction set that one cared for. > > Nice question...any "big iron" implementation in FPGA? S/360? S/370? > PDP? VAX? Whatever? > > As far as I know, PDP11-44 is in FPGA. It runs Unix-V6. It is implemented by a female graduate student. As far as I know, No VAX is in FPGA. vax, 9000 From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 23:05:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 21:05:32 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 19:51, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Keep an eye out for old 10Base-T hubs, many of them had a 10Base-2 > connection. Even now I'm guessing that they are much cheaper than a > media converter (I know how much I paid for my media converter). I wonder if you could use an old network card that had both 10Base2 and 10BaseT connections. I had an old Ansel ISA card with 4 10Base2 ports and 1 10BaseT and I've used it that way. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 5 23:06:14 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 22:06:14 -0600 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 05 May 2007 18:32:32 -0700. <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <463CCDC0.23709.2407E0A7 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Sure you can program an FPGA anyway you want, within limits. But > they're not sold as computer systems. And even so, most are binary > 2's complement wordsize-a-multiple-of-8-bits designs. They are sold as computer systems -- google reconfigurable computing. They are also sold as "computer systems" that perform specialized tasks. From my friend who works at Xilinx, telecommunications is a giant consumer of FPGA hardware. > Arguing that you can program an FPGA to look like anything you'd like > seems to me to be akin to saying that one can microprogram a 360/30 > to have any old instruction set imaginable or program an emulator to > run on a DG Nova to emulate any instruction set that one cared for. So what? When you build a bit-slice machine, you're microprogramming it to have the architecture you want. My Lilith/Eve is built that way. Does that make it "less" of an architecture? Of course not. Architecture is a concept, not a piece of hardware. The hardware realizes the concept. Whether that hardware is SSI/MSI parts, vacuum tubes, relays, lego parts, FPGAs, or software running on SIMH is irrelevant to the architecture. It doesn't care. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 5 23:14:45 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 23:14:45 -0500 Subject: Dayton, approaching fast - Hosstraders -NEARFEST In-Reply-To: <1178384781.10579.33.camel@elric> References: <463BC6A7.9F7322C@west.net> <200705050026.50327.pat@computer-refuge.org> <463C7219.1000400@splab.cas.neu.edu> <51ea77730705050949t855f479kdced72163dc46c46@mail.gmail.com> <1178384781.10579.33.camel@elric> Message-ID: <51ea77730705052114j49dd9e9btd42304b2dde731c4@mail.gmail.com> On 5/5/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Can you write a script that will post a message on their page to be > SMSed out, when your server receives an email? > > Gordon I believe there service already does that - emailing to dayton07 at txtmob.com will send an SMS message to the group. I don't know of any way of handling incoming SMS messages, however. -j From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 5 23:18:13 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 21:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <1178401095.7452.9.camel@elric> References: <642226.39097.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <1178401095.7452.9.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20070505210631.N94206@shell.lmi.net> > There's no reason why it should be, though. You could come up with some > hypothetical BCD-based architecture. Enrollment drops well below quorum with a hypothetical imaginary system. Currently only PC (Windows or Linux) or Mac will get enough enrollment. What percentage of the people here learned how to program on hypothetical systems? I dumped that stuff as fast as I could, in switching over to 1401 machine and assembly, even though I had to do it with an emulator on a 1620. A helluva lot of people here say that newbies should get years of underlying fundamentals and theory before they are ever allowed to see or touch a machine, even though THEY started out on real machines, and would not have ever gotten into it without that hands-on approach. There's damn little feeling of accomplishment in just being able to put your name on the screen in CP/M, DOS, Windoze, or Mac; there is way less if there isn't any such machine. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 6 00:23:58 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 22:23:58 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <20070505210631.N94206@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >From: Fred Cisin ---snip--- > > >What percentage of the people here learned how to program on hypothetical >systems? > Hi Although, not a machine like Fred, my first assembly was for the 6800 and then for the 8048. Neither of these programs ever got a chance to actually run. My first actual assembly code that ran on something was in a Poly88. After that I was exposed to a MDS800 and other languages. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Download Messenger. Join the i?m Initiative. Help make a difference today. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07 From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 6 01:02:04 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 00:02:04 -0600 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 05 May 2007 22:23:58 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "dwight elvey" writes: > Although, not a machine like Fred, my first assembly was for the 6800 and > then for the 8048. [...] My first assembly was on the 6809 in 1984. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 6 02:10:12 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:10:12 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report Message-ID: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I think I might be on something of a roll here - I spent the train ride to/from work (and a good chunk of my lunch break) playing about with state machine designs for the write side of the floppy disc writer. What I've come up with is a nifty little finite state machine that interprets instructions from the acquisition RAM, then executes them and writes them to disc. The way I've done it, there are five instructions: 0nnn nnnn: Write Timer. Writes the 7-bit timer value 'n' to the timer, then outputs a pulse on the WRDATA line when the counter reaches zero 1111 1111: STOP. Sets the STOP flag and halts the state machine until it is reset. 1011 xxx0: Close Write Gate. Deactivates WRGATE, preventing the head from writing to the disc. 1011 xxx1: Open Write Gate. Activates WRGATE, allowing the drive head to write to the disc. 110n nnnn: Wait for 'n' INDEX pulses before continuing execution of SM instructions. 1100 0000: Wait for a hard-sector track index (sector zero marker) signal before continuing execution of SM instructions. As far as I can tell, this is the minimum instruction set required to allow both soft and hard sectored discs to be duplicated reliably. There is one 'spare' instruction -- 1110 xxxx -- if anyone can come up with a good use for it, I'm open to suggestions. The write hardware currently clocks in at 19 macrocells, read hardware is another 26, the track-index pulse detector (which allows hard-sectored discs to be read and written) is 18, and the MFM synchronisation detector (including the neat little state-machine data separator) is another 29. So that's a total of 92, which leaves 52 for the acquisition control circuitry and registers. Assuming I don't run out of any other chip resources first, that is. The disc interface is going to be a standard 34-pin "PC" floppy connector. It seemed like the best plan - wiring to 3.5 and 5.25" drives can be done with a standard cable, and 8" drives can probably be connected with a fairly simple adapter cable. I do need one thing confirming though - I've read that on hard-sectored discs, each sector is marked with an index pulse: ---+ +------------+ +---- | | | | +--+ +--+ And the start of the track (sector 1) looks like this - note the index pulse half-way between two other index pulses: ---+ +----+ +----+ +---- | | | | | | +--+ +--+ +--+ 1 2 3 My question is, does sector 1 start at 1, 2 or 3? I'm guessing 3, and that's what the sync detector's set up for at the moment. Basically, it has a timing window - if a second index pulse arrives within 0.75T (where T = time between two normal index pulses) of the last one, it is assumed to be a track index sequence. The threshold value is adjustable in software, so drive speed isn't an issue. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 04:40:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 02:40:22 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <463D4016.25058.25C67B57@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 22:06, Richard wrote: > So what? > > When you build a bit-slice machine, you're microprogramming it to have > the architecture you want. My Lilith/Eve is built that way. Does > that make it "less" of an architecture? Of course not. SIgh. Whatever. Cheers, Chuck From jonas at otter.se Sun May 6 03:21:32 2007 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 10:21:32 +0200 Subject: That horrible computer foam In-Reply-To: <200705050924.l459NbCk052924@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705050924.l459NbCk052924@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <463D900C.3000809@otter.se> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > As I have been collecting computers, I have noticed > that some pieces of equipment like printers and the > like, contain a lot of this awful foam stuff, most > likely for noise deadening. Time has caused this foam > to break down and turn to gunk, or at least a soft, > squshy material that does not spring back. It also > crumbles. IBM foam seems to be the worst, along with > the foam used on Zenith PC's, turning into a tarry > goo. > > On the CDC drives I just picked up, the entire inside > of them is covered in this foam, some of it is > starting to come off, or has stuck to cables and such > inside. A couple smaller chunks of it literally fell > off one part of the cover, the glue only holding the > particular particles of the foam to which it was > attached, and the rest of the foam falling away. > > What is the best thing to do about this, especially in > something as sensitive as a disk drive? Should I > remove it? What's the best method? Is there something > I can use to replace it? > > Also, for instance, inside the cover of the PDP-11/84, > there is a thin slab of foam that has turned to crud. > I plan on removing this entirely - vacuuming away what > I can and cleaning the rest off with something - what > will dissolve this? I know that trying to get the gunk > from IBM foam off your hands is nearly impossible. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks! > > -Ian This is a common problem with classic cameras where it is used as light seals. The foam also tends to eat away other stuff like paint etc. so it needs removing. Get rid of as much as you can manually, by vacuuming, picking it out with tweezers from small spaces, scraping etc, then clean the remaining gunk away with alcohol (ethanol) which dissolves it instantly. Take care with plastic surfaces, they may be fogged by the alcohol. For classic cameras, new, better foam is available to replace the old stuff. I have no idea of the price or where to get it from, try asking Jon Goodman (jon_goodman at yahoo.com) who sells it in kits to reseal old cameras. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat May 5 23:18:03 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 05:18:03 +0100 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Get a cheap hub that has both 10/100baseT and BNC. Mine is a Dynamode DM-809STP. I use it to convert the BNC output from my VAX to 100BaseT on my network. Regards Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of stuart birchall Sent: 05 May 2007 13:43 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. thanks, stu From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat May 5 23:30:11 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 05:30:11 +0100 Subject: Punch card racks Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDA@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Standard Punched card is 7 3/8" x 3 ?" so find the nearest index card storage drawer size and use that. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 05 May 2007 21:14 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Punch card racks Any thoughts of where (in England) to get the metal racks of drawers which used to be used to store 80 column punched cards. There must have been thousands made but I have looked for them on eBay and no luck. I don't suppose they are still made unless they are used for some other purpose (like bank notes). I have seen some a bit bigger but they have pop rivets poking into the storage space which would damage the cards. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun May 6 08:25:30 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 14:25:30 +0100 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDB@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well that's interesting... It would seem that as long as Mentec choose to ignore non-commercial use you can do (within reason) what you like. I did say pdp preserver as opposed to RT, RSX or RSTS preserver. However I must admit to having worked in digital SWS and to having been part of the VMS marketing group I do have an interest in the software side. DEC were quite keen on educational computing and that's how they would have viewed a hobbyist program. As HP now effectivly own what was DEC I assume the agreement is now between them and Mentec. It seems that many efforts to set up a hobbyist (or collectors program) have come to nought due to Mentec seeing no profit in the arrangement. Needless to say as a DEC hardware collector a simulator is of no interest to me. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine Sent: 06 May 2007 03:48 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mentec >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi All > I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the >rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they >seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site >that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. No >mention of pdp anything. > > Jerome Fine replies: First of all, please remember I am ONLY interested in RT-11. And while I have had contact with and used a bit of RSX-11 and a very extensive amount of RSTS/E, I was never responsible of a system which ran RSX-11 or RSTS/E. Which is the primary reason that I never became proficient enough to maintain either an RSX-11 or a RSTS/E system. On the other hand, I may now know RT-11 as well as some of the top RT-11 developers knew RT-11 during the 1980s. As for why Mentec no longer actively supports any of the PDP-11 systems, I venture to guess that it is no longer profitable. >As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around >how >RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have >not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they >could help us poor pdp preservers. > Mentec has helped the poor PDP-11 preservers. Unfortunately, it is not obvious since the help is more in not causing those poor PDP-11 preservers any difficulties as opposed to being proactive by making the operating systems generally available such as Borland products are at present. Also an example is the VMS hobby program which Mentec does not have. In addition, as others have mentioned in their replies, it seems very doubtful that Mentec really did "totally own" the PDP-11 operating systems. Unfortunately, it seems highly probable that the terms of the agreement between Mentec and DEC required the parties to maintain confidentiality since I can't see why those terms have never been publicly disclosed - unless those terms were so detrimental to the users that neither party wanted to admit the mistakes in the lack of a PDP-11 hobby program in the face of the VMS hobby license program. But what did happen did, what did not happen did not - the stories and interpretations that many of us make up about what happened are probably 90% fiction and are no longer even important. BUT, Mentec did make older versions of the operating systems available for legal non-commercial use under what was at the time a DEC owned emulator. It certainly seemed questionable at the time and it may be even more questionable at present, but Mentec has chosen to make no challenge to the use of those older versions of the operating systems under the current name of that DEC emulator which has evolved to become SIMH. In addition, Mentec also seems to be ignoring the legal requirement for a transfer of any operating system license to the new owner of any old PDP-11 hardware so long as, at least as far I can interpret, the new owner is non-commercial. Certainly there have been numerous discussions on classiccmp (one is going on right now about a single RL02 system) over PDP-11 use of the RT-11 operating system (i.e. NOT under SIMH) and I can't remember any recent protests from Mentec in this regard. Any finally, while the RSX-11 and RSTS/E operating systems are much more tightly controlled and not very easily available, almost 10 years ago, Megan Gentry, a former RT-11 developer, put a zip file of V05.03 of RT-11 up for general download with the explicit permission of the individuals who had to provide that permission. V05.03 of RT-11 is the last binary distribution allowed under the DEC emulator and by inference under SIMH. There is also a CD version (an ISO file) which contains as many as possible of the RT-11 binary versions as could reasonably be found for all of V05.03 of RT-11 and prior. Any for those individuals who are legally licensed to run the latest version of RT-11, V05.07 released in October of 1998 or just under 9 years ago, there is also a CD containing the rest of the RT-11 binary distributions. The latter CD was requested by a university who was legally licensed to use and already had a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 and was legally entitled to a backup of all of the RT-11 binary distributions. So - I don't really think that there are any "poor pdp preservers" as far as RT-11 is concerned. In point of fact, I have personally found ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in the last 5 years in: (a) Preserving RT-11, (b) Fixing any bugs in RT-11 (c) Making any enhancements in RT-11 Of course, for individuals in the know, most of them already have sufficiently preserved what they want of RT-11. On the other hand, even though I have made a number of vital bug fixes to RT-11 (for problems that crash RT-11) along with other minor problems as well as some extensive enhancements, I have yet to find anyone who is even interested in a Y3K for RT-11, let alone someone who would be interested in participating. Of course, Y3K may already have been done, the enhancements that I have already completed may have been duplicated along with many other enhancements and the bugs fixed as well and distributed to the users of RT-11. Perhaps I just don't know that it has all occurred without a word of it reaching my eyes and ears. But, as a result, I have place (a), (b) and (c) into a lower priority and focused on attempting something even less useful, i.e. confirming the value of pi(10^18) using a sieve program running under RT-11 with a view to attempting to determine pi(10^24). When I find that it will take a million years to finish the calculations for pi(10^24) with current computers, I may shift back to (a), (b) and (c) if I can't find something even less useful than knowing the value for pi(10^24). On the other hand, if anyone is really interested, drop me a line. If anyone really knows why Mentec does not have a hobby program for PDP-11 operating systems, let us know. Just don't complain about RT-11 and Mentec since nothing that Mentec seems to be doing at present interferes with "poor pdp preservers" as far as RT-11 is concerned. In 16 more years, which will be 25 years after V05.07 of RT-11 was released, I very seriously doubt that Mentec will care if every hobby user who wants a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 is using it on real DEC hardware, let alone if there is a running emulator on what goes for a PC in the year 2023 when I will be 84 years old if I am still kicking. As for commercial sites still running RT-11, if they don't already have the Y2K compliant V05.07 of RT-11, then I very much doubt that they will require V05.07 in the year 2023. And if those commercial sites are managing with the current bugs in RT-11 9 years after V05.07 was released, well ... Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 10:30:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:30:50 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <463D923A.29568.27075C4B@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2007 at 22:06, Richard wrote: > So what? > > When you build a bit-slice machine, you're microprogramming it to have > the architecture you want. My Lilith/Eve is built that way. Does > that make it "less" of an architecture? Of course not. SIgh. Whatever. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 10:30:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:30:50 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 8:10, Philip Pemberton wrote: > My question is, does sector 1 start at 1, 2 or 3? Yes, it starts at 3, providing you acknowledge that "Sector 1" is a completely artificial notion. (i.e. There are a few hard-sectored systems that don't look for the index pulse at all.) Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 6 10:54:07 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 11:54:07 -0400 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200705061154.07789.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 05 May 2007 21:02, Richard wrote: > In article <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE at cclist.sydex.com>, > > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > Actually, assembly was a step up. I started by programming machine > > language. The sad thing is that architectures are far less varied > > than they were 30-40 years ago. Maybe that's a good thing; maybe > > not. > > Au contraire. "Architecture" these days is whatever you want it to be > cooked into an FPGA. Maybe you don't consider that architecture, but > the hardware possibilities available to you for low cost these days > are limited only by your imagination and gate count. Of course > there's a trade-off between speed and versatility but FPGA designs are > *very* popular for custom architectures these days. Sure, but no one (in their right mind) builds a general purpose CPU out of them. Well, unless it's a research or "toy" project, a prototype design, or something very unusual and high end[1], but even in that case it's still not making a general purpose CPU out of it. You normally take an FPGA board, program your specific algorithm into it (that is, convert the algorithm into hardware baseically), and shove bits through it. Have you actually used a FPGA board? I've actually taken a workshop (a few years ago now) on them. Everyone that I know who's using FPGAs in their product (in any sort of manner that approximates a CPU) uses them as some sort of co-processor to offload a specific processing task from the main CPU. I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. [1] I'm specifically referring to a NAS box we just got at work. MMmmm, NFS in hardare... see http://bluearc.com/ Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 6 11:23:58 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 11:23:58 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? Message-ID: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> I've spotted this nice setup locally, wondering if the guy is asking way too much for it: http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/sys/322279611.html If the link goes dead, it's an IBM 5110 PC, 5103 Printer and 5114 dual floppy unit. Yeah, I know, it's worth what people will pay for it. But I don't even see any completed on ePay, so I can't begin to gauge the appropriate value. Those big floppy drives are calling me, though... -- jht From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 11:31:15 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 09:31:15 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: At 5:18 AM +0100 5/6/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Get a cheap hub that has both 10/100baseT and BNC. Mine is a Dynamode >DM-809STP. I use it to convert the BNC output from my VAX to 100BaseT on >my network. How common are 10/100BaseT Hubs with a BNC connection? I know I've never seen one. Any hub I've seen with a BNC connection has been limited to 10Mbit. The original posters problem just happens to be half the reason I even care about 10Base2, my Amiga 3000's NIC only has a BNC connection, I also have this problem with my DECserver 90L+. Though I'm not using either at the moment. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 11:46:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 09:46:33 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <200705061154.07789.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: , <200705061154.07789.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <463DA3F9.358.274CB06E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 11:54, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone > can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is > general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. ...and that was my point. In the space of, oh, five years, a programmer might be exposed to systems from IBM with very very different architectures. Consider the IBM 1401 and 7090, both introduced in 1959. One a variable-word length decimal machine; the other a 36-bit fixed-word binary machine. Or another 1959 system, the 1620, variable-word decimal, but very different from the 1401. Five years later, we have S/360 that didn't look anything like what had come before. Not to mention the various other 7000-series iron (particularly STRETCH), the 1130, 1800...etc. And the those were the offerings in 5 years from ONE manufacturer. If one jumped manufacturers, one learned not only a new machine and assembly language, but a whole new vocabulary to use when talking about them. In assemblers, contrast 1401 Autocoder with CDC 6000 COMPASS, for example. The feeling that one has just arrived from Mars is unavoidable. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 6 11:48:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 10:48:05 -0600 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 06 May 2007 11:54:07 -0400. <200705061154.07789.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200705061154.07789.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Saturday 05 May 2007 21:02, Richard wrote: > > Au contraire. "Architecture" these days is whatever you want it to be > > cooked into an FPGA. [...] > > Sure, but no one (in their right mind) builds a general purpose CPU out > of them. Right, if you want a general purpose CPU, you buy one. If you need a different architecture, then your architecture isn't one for a general purpose CPU, but a special purpose CPU. You can build that in an FPGA if that's what you need. Really, I don't see what the complaint is here. It seems to be akin to saying "ya know, back in the old days when we hand-made nails, each nail was different. Each nail had character. I don't like these mass-manufactured nails, they're all so identical." > Have you actually used a FPGA board? Yep. > I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone > can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is > general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. What would be the point of that? Obviously such things don't exist exactly for the same reasons I just stated above. If "architecture" is just different, but not better, then what's the point? The protestations seem to be that the marketplace has settled on a few general purpose CPU designs. Well boo-f*cking-hoo. Again, so what? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 6 12:05:22 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 18:05:22 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 May 2007 at 8:10, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> My question is, does sector 1 start at 1, 2 or 3? > > Yes, it starts at 3, providing you acknowledge that "Sector 1" is a > completely artificial notion. (i.e. There are a few hard-sectored > systems that don't look for the index pulse at all.) By that I assume you mean that they use the index pulse to mark the sectors, but ignore the track start marker? Otherwise how could they be called hard-sectored if they weren't synchronising the sector boundaries against sector marks on the disc? Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 12:10:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 10:10:05 -0700 Subject: Oddball DC-xxx tape drive Message-ID: <463DA97D.16329.27623BFB@cclist.sydex.com> I've got a DC-300-footprint tape drive in my collection of peripherals, circa 1986 (chip dates) for which I'm trying to identify the medium. A DC-300/600 cart fits perfectly and is spun a bit by the drive before the error light comes on. Upon close examination of the drive internals, the surprise is that it doesn't use an optical sensor to determine BOT/EOT, but rather contacts on either side of the read/write head that apparently make contact with a conductive metallic strip on the tape. So the medium isn't DC300, anyone know what it is? The interface is a 50-conductor one, with unit selects from 0-3, but it doesn't seem to be QIC-02 or QIC-36--and it's not SCSI either. The drive has a motherboard with two cards in it--one appears to contain the read/write amplifiers, the other contains a 6803, 6522 and a 6821 and a 2716 EPROM with a 3M copyright sticker. The manufacturer is ADIC, but I'm unable to come up with any documentation on the web for this beast. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 12:19:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 10:19:06 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com>, <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463DAB9A.3436.276A7B2E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 18:05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > By that I assume you mean that they use the index pulse to mark the sectors, > but ignore the track start marker? Right. The ones I'm thinking of are 8" systems, where the drive has separate outputs for SECTOR and INDEX. There's no compelling reason to pay attention to INDEX in many applications--and some systems reflect this. That was the other thing that I wanted to mention--that 8" drives separate sector marks from index marks for you. Most do it with a couple of one-shots--precision timing isn't terribly important, given that HS 8" disks had at most 32 sectors. Given that, you may want to make your determination of index and sector marks optional for those wishing to make use of the drive capabilities. If you haven't gotten a volunteer for your CW samples, drop me a private email and I'll make some up for you. Cheers, Chuck From cc at corti-net.de Sun May 6 12:20:38 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:20:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2007, Jason T wrote: > If the link goes dead, it's an IBM 5110 PC, 5103 Printer and 5114 dual > floppy unit. Is that a model 1 (with built in tape drive) or a model 2 (without tape drive)? > Yeah, I know, it's worth what people will pay for it. But I don't > even see any completed on ePay, so I can't begin to gauge the > appropriate value. Those big floppy drives are calling me, though... Although I don't know what "obo"s are (he asks for $600obo), even $600 are way too much for such a system. Most systems are for free (or at most 100-150 EUR for complete systems with manuals and media) because nearly noone can use/program/repair them anymore or at least they aren't really interesting machines for people that don't want to program them in machine language or do reverse engineering. You must keep in mind that you'll have to write your own programs in order to do any real work with it, otherwise it's like an old CBM machine with BASIC and nothing else... Having said that, nobody has shown any interest in my 5110 Kermit or 5110 Infocom interpreter yet. Christian From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 6 12:59:14 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 12:59:14 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705061059r69678669w3b2d8b03404a0cd9@mail.gmail.com> On 5/6/07, Christian Corti wrote: > Is that a model 1 (with built in tape drive) or a model 2 (without tape > drive)? He doesn't have a picture of the one he's selling. He just shows an old IBM ad for the 5100, which does show a tape drive. That will be my next question to him then. > Although I don't know what "obo"s are (he asks for $600obo), even $600 are Just an abbreviation meaning "or best offer." > language or do reverse engineering. You must keep in mind that you'll > have to write your own programs in order to do any real work with it, Work? People work with computers? I thought we just buy them/find them in the dumpster, bring them home, wash them off and put pictures of them on the internet. Or maybe that's just me :) I figure he'll be waiting a long time to get that price for it, so I'll watch for him to re-post the ad and come down. Then again, you never know who you'll find on Craigslist; it could be gone tomorrow. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 13:01:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 14:01:13 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:18 AM +0100 5/6/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >Get a cheap hub that has both 10/100baseT and BNC. Mine is a Dynamode > >DM-809STP. I use it to convert the BNC output from my VAX to 100BaseT on > >my network. > > How common are 10/100BaseT Hubs with a BNC connection? I know I've > never seen one. Any hub I've seen with a BNC connection has been > limited to 10Mbit. The only ones I've seen, are 10Mbit only as well. I have one I use with 1 x 10base2, 8 x 10baseT, and 1 x AUI that I've slapped a 10baseFL transceiver onto. > The original posters problem just happens to be half the reason I > even care about 10Base2, my Amiga 3000's NIC only has a BNC > connection, I also have this problem with my DECserver 90L+. Though > I'm not using either at the moment. I'm in the same boat - Amigas with 10base2 only. Pretty much anything else I have that does networking has 10base2 _and_ an AUI at least. In my experience, it's much easier to find an old 10baseT hub with a 10base2 port or an AUI (to which you add a 10base2 transceiver) than a 10base2 to 10baseT media converter, but the media converter will be smaller if you can track one down. -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 6 13:18:40 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 14:18:40 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004501c7900a$f960c590$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 2:01 PM Subject: Re: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? > > > The original posters problem just happens to be half the reason I > > even care about 10Base2, my Amiga 3000's NIC only has a BNC > > connection, I also have this problem with my DECserver 90L+. Though > > I'm not using either at the moment. > > I'm in the same boat - Amigas with 10base2 only. Pretty much anything > else I have that does networking has 10base2 _and_ an AUI at least. > My A3000 came with a network card with rj45, very lucky there. > In my experience, it's much easier to find an old 10baseT hub with a > 10base2 port or an AUI (to which you add a 10base2 transceiver) than a > 10base2 to 10baseT media converter, but the media converter will be > smaller if you can track one down. My first hub (still have it in use) was a 3com office TP4 combo (4 RJ45, 1 coax, and a AUI port), not sure how easy one would be to find these days. I have a transiver connected to a Mac print server for my 4/600 PS printer (transievers with rj45 are hard to find outside of ebay). TZ From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 6 13:22:00 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 14:22:00 -0400 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 06 May 2007 09:46:33 PDT." <463DA3F9.358.274CB06E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200705061822.l46IM0kl016702@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >On 6 May 2007 at 11:54, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone >> can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is >> general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. I can't name a general purpose one, but I can name a number of application specific embedded systems which you can buy right now (if you have a big checkbook :-) which have fpga-implemented cpu's. I'm working on two different ones right now. but that probably was your point. I just wanted to point out that they do exist and people do program them, but it's not a generalist thing. -brad From jim at photojim.ca Sun May 6 13:44:27 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 12:44:27 -0600 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <1178477067.11609.2.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2007-06-05 at 09:31 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:18 AM +0100 5/6/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > How common are 10/100BaseT Hubs with a BNC connection? I know I've > never seen one. Any hub I've seen with a BNC connection has been > limited to 10Mbit. I think they are pretty uncommon, but it doesn't much matter. Get a 10BaseT hub with a BNC port and connect it to your 100BaseTX switch. That way, your 100 Mbps devices get full speed; all the traffic to the thinnet devices gets routed via your hub. I don't know if this is an option with the particular network card in question, but my solution to this problem has been to get AUI to 10BaseT converters. Most network cards of this vintage have AUI ports. That saves me the bother of making a thinnet segment. I got some new converters a year or so ago for just a few dollars each off the auction site. Jim From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sun May 6 13:59:57 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 14:59:57 -0400 Subject: Dayton and RL02's Message-ID: The following thoughts have just occurred to me: 1) I am going to Dayton next week; 2) I will be driving my car alone, so can haul moderately sized pieces of equipment back home; 3) I have decided to purchase another RL02 drive and disk pack for my 11/23+ (ref. the previous single-RL02-system discussion, this seems to be a good solution to my backup problem). SO - is anyone else going to Dayton who has an RL02 for sale and can haul it there? Please contact me off-list. thanks Charles From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 6 14:02:05 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 15:02:05 -0400 Subject: Modifying a Nubus TokenRing card Message-ID: <1ad001c79011$09db01a0$0b01a8c0@game> I have 2 of these Asante MacRing (same as TokenRing I hope) NB 16/4 Nubus tokenring cards: http://home.neo.rr.com/unknownk/images/100_1106.jpg Can I solder in some parts (lower right of the card) and use rj45 to connect this card to a TokenRing Hub (when I snag one)? Seems like I need a RJ45 jack, 4 capacitors (same as the ones on the 9 pin jack above?) and a chip marked 78Z003 (what is that exactly)? Oh, does anybody have drivers for this card? From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sun May 6 10:13:14 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:13:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <537948.13596.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <463BA106.9070602@gmail.com> <463BAEC8.6030105@atarimuseum.com> <06d501c78efd$4cd8dfa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <17131.217.225.85.127.1178464394.squirrel@217.225.85.127> stuart birchall said: > Hi, can anyone in the UK help out - i'm after a bnc to utp connector to > attach my amiga to our utp ethernet network. In contrast to the converters from AUI to TP or BNC where AUI has all the signals you need to combine signals for TP, you basically need a special transformer circuit, BNC->TP is not so simple. The typical circuit you are looking for is an old 10MBit hub with BNC output, like the Centrecom MR820TR I incidentally happen to use here at home in my local network. Since noone nowadays still want to deal with that slow 10Mbits *) **), it is likely to find such hubs in the dump or at eBay. *) except the readers here **) interestingly, people accept even lower speeds for WLANs where the naming of the theoretical limits imply that one actually gets 11MBit/s as nominal. -- Holger From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 6 14:12:03 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 20:12:03 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463DAB9A.3436.276A7B2E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com>, <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> <463DAB9A.3436.276A7B2E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463E2883.6020108@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The ones I'm thinking of are 8" systems, where the drive has separate > outputs for SECTOR and INDEX. There's no compelling reason to pay > attention to INDEX in many applications--and some systems reflect > this. OK then, looks like I *do* need to read the SA800 docs then... > That was the other thing that I wanted to mention--that 8" drives > separate sector marks from index marks for you. Most do it with a > couple of one-shots--precision timing isn't terribly important, given > that HS 8" disks had at most 32 sectors. Given that, you may want to > make your determination of index and sector marks optional for those > wishing to make use of the drive capabilities. That's a good point - if there's a spare pin on the 34-pin connector (and a bit of spare space in the CPLD) I'll add the relevant logic to it. Pins 4 and 6 on the FDD connector look like fair game - they're listed as "N/C" on my pinout, but seeing as it's going to be turned into an input, I doubt that matters much (after all, you can always turn off the external index marker input). The only thing I'm slightly worried about is if the INDEX output also includes the half-sector pulse that marks the 'first sector'. That would change how the drive controller needs to be programmed - if you wanted to read the last sector on its own, you'd add 1 to the "termination count" (number of times a termination condition - i.e. the INDEX line - must exist before the R/W operation is stopped). If the drive masks out the half-sector pulse, you wouldn't need to add the 1. Again, all of this is configurable in the CPLD; the hard part is deciding how to integrate all these options into the software interface and API! I think I'll spend this evening sorting out the register interface stuff, tie all the logic together and see if it passes the behavioural simulations. If it does, I'll start work on the schematics and PCB. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 6 14:39:12 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 15:39:12 -0400 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <200705061822.l46IM0kl016702@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <463DA3F9.358.274CB06E@cclist.sydex.com> <200705061822.l46IM0kl016702@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20070506193911.GA14704@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Sun, May 06, 2007 at 02:22:00PM -0400, Brad Parker wrote: > > "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >On 6 May 2007 at 11:54, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > >> I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone > >> can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is > >> general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. > > I can't name a general purpose one, but I can name a number of > application specific embedded systems which you can buy right now (if > you have a big checkbook :-) which have fpga-implemented cpu's. I'm > working on two different ones right now. > > but that probably was your point. I just wanted to point out that > they do exist and people do program them, but it's not a generalist > thing. Right, and I was trying to point out, that FPGA-implemented CPU architecture isn't anything like the variety of commonly availble CPU architectures that there were in the 60's/70's and earlier. Back then, every manufacturer (pretty much) had their own architectures, and "commonly" availble machines might have 8, 12, 16, 32, 36, 60-bit, etc CPUs, or use 1's complement arithmatic (or magnitude and sign), instead of 2's complement. (Or, a non-base-2 numbering scheme such as BCD, 2-4-2-1, hollerith code, etc.) Richard seemed to be claiming that there was such a variety today of commonly-availbe general-purpose CPUs (because of FPGAs), but maybe I just mis-understood him. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 14:37:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 12:37:39 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, , Message-ID: <463DCC13.13581.27E953A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 14:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The only ones I've seen, are 10Mbit only as well. I have one I use > with 1 x 10base2, 8 x 10baseT, and 1 x AUI that I've slapped a > 10baseFL transceiver onto. I've got a PCI 10/100 card with an Intel chipset on it and it's got both coax and UTP connectors on it, so they *do* exist. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 14:52:53 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 15:52:53 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <463DCC13.13581.27E953A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <463DCC13.13581.27E953A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 May 2007 at 14:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > The only ones I've seen, are 10Mbit only as well. I have one I use > > with 1 x 10base2, 8 x 10baseT, and 1 x AUI that I've slapped a > > 10baseFL transceiver onto. > > I've got a PCI 10/100 card with an Intel chipset on it and it's got > both coax and UTP connectors on it, so they *do* exist. I think some of the context got whacked - I was referring to hubs, not NICs. I haven't seen a 10/100 hub with 10base2. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 14:58:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 12:58:21 -0700 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <20070506193911.GA14704@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> References: <463DA3F9.358.274CB06E@cclist.sydex.com>, <200705061822.l46IM0kl016702@mwave.heeltoe.com>, <20070506193911.GA14704@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <463DD0ED.13094.27FC46CF@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 15:39, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Right, and I was trying to point out, that FPGA-implemented CPU > architecture isn't anything like the variety of commonly availble CPU > architectures that there were in the 60's/70's and earlier. Back then, > every manufacturer (pretty much) had their own architectures, and > "commonly" availble machines might have 8, 12, 16, 32, 36, 60-bit, etc > CPUs, or use 1's complement arithmatic (or magnitude and sign), instead > of 2's complement. (Or, a non-base-2 numbering scheme such as BCD, > 2-4-2-1, hollerith code, etc.) Anent that, in EETimes about a week ago, Clive Maxfield wrote about a movement to implement decimal floating point for the financial folks-- implemented in FPGA as a coprocessor. http://www.pldesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=KACYJ2NGXHOEI QSNDLRCKHSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=199001229 I'm not certain if the representation is BCD or DPD, however. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 15:04:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 13:04:29 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, <463DCC13.13581.27E953A7@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <463DD25D.13342.2801E693@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 15:52, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think some of the context got whacked - I was referring to hubs, not NICs. > > I haven't seen a 10/100 hub with 10base2. Yeah, my goof--neither have I. --Chuck From us21090 at yahoo.com Sun May 6 15:58:39 2007 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 13:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. Message-ID: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, About a month ago I picked a nice stash from a freecycler wishing to clean out. The summary list: Partial Apple II, II+, IIe and lots of h/w accessories and software. The fuller list is at the end of this entry. I'm not a big collector (I have a Obtronix Apple Replica and Kim-1 (another 6502 SBC)). But I thought I'd piece together a nice representative Apple 2 and sell off the rest. I haven't tested anything yet. Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most capability, but the II is more significant. Question 2: Which accessories are significant to keep (you know, but hate to say it: "VERY R at RE!!!")? Some things may be rare, but I doubt I'd use them. For example, the Switch-A-Slot (see http://tinyurl.com/2m8b3e ) Thanks for any helpful suggestions! Scott Fuller lengthier list (my notes are shoddy in places) ***Systems*** Apple II MN/SN: A2A0016/A2S1-61847 * Manufacture Date (corner of mobo): 7928 * Missing Power supply * Missing Cover (aaargh!!) Apple II+ MN/SN: A2S1016/A2S2-102594 * Ram Card (CSE/KS??) * Disk ][ Interface card * Apple IIe MN/SN: A2S2064/A2S2-D45-055F * Disk ][ Interface card * Mouse interface * Mockingboard * Parallel Card - Precision S/W * RAM Works II ***Other Hardware*** Apple Disk ][ A2M0003 (Qty 3 older style, Qty 1 newer) Transware Accelerator Joystick Koala Pad Numeric Keypad IIe A2M2003 Synch Printer Interface card IRQ Manager - Berkeley Softworks Switch-A-Slot - South Calif. Research Group IEEE-488 Card MPC Peripherals AP-S10 SUP'RMOD VHF Converter Interactive Structres A/D Modem - Applied Engineering Datalink Floppy Drive Controller for IIe 3.5" Drive Disk ][ Interface Card CMS SCSI II Apple Super Serial Card II Apple IIe 80 Col/64K Memory Expansion Sequential Systems Ram80 Silentype Printer A2M0032 Hardrive in enclosure (I didn't open to get model, size) Apple Monitor (I didn't note the model) Commodore Monitor (I didn't note the model) ***Software*** Copy II Plus DOS 3.3 Basics, System Manual MousePaint ProDOS Start Smith's Adventure Construction Set Apple Fortran Apple Pascal GEOS - includes GEOFile, GEOCalc,... Merlin Pro Macro Assembler IIe, IIc No Slot Clock more (if I remember correctly) ***Software on Cassette*** Mastermind Apple Lis'ner, Apple talker RamTest Forte' Music Dynacomp - Poker Party, Teacher's Pet, Games Pack Renumber/Append, Alignment Test Tone MicroUsers Software Exchange (Baltimore) - UDraw, Music Box Apple - Phone List, Brian's Theme Apple - Hopalong Cassidy, Lemonade Apple - Penny Arcade, Finance 1 Speakeasy Bulls & Bears Avalon MicroComp Game - Computer Baseball Strategy ***Books*** A Guide to Programming in AppleSoft (2nd Ed) Apple II Basic Manual, Ref Manual DOS Manual (DOS3.3, I think) SuperSerial Card AppleSoft Basic Programming Reference Manual Apple Machine Language (Don and Kurt Inman) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 6 15:58:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:58:34 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463E2883.6020108@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com>, <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> <463DAB9A.3436.276A7B2E@cclist.sydex.com> <463E2883.6020108@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463E417A.7010008@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: >> That was the other thing that I wanted to mention--that 8" drives >> separate sector marks from index marks for you. Most do it with a >> couple of one-shots--precision timing isn't terribly important, given >> that HS 8" disks had at most 32 sectors. Given that, you may want to >> make your determination of index and sector marks optional for those >> wishing to make use of the drive capabilities. > > That's a good point - if there's a spare pin on the 34-pin connector > (and a bit of spare space in the CPLD) I'll add the relevant logic to > it. Hmm, any chance of making the connector more of a CPU bus, with a handful of address lines? Then you just plug in a little module, one per floppy drive, to give that drive an ID on the bus. My thinking is that supporting just two drive types isn't enough in a general archive box, and even four might not cut it. The only overhead is a data cable per floppy drive, and a few buffer / address decoding ICs... The module would have a standard 34 pin connector for drive signals on it, or I suppose there might be special-case variants for 8" or for some really oddball setups. (I was tempted to say you could make the modules plug straight into the back of the drives, similar to SCSI SCA adapters, and then just have a single bus cable connecting them all up, but the lack of any standard as to placement of a floppy drive's data connector makes that problematic) cheers Jules -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From evan at snarc.net Sun May 6 16:12:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:12:00 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. Message-ID: <200705062112.l46LCExQ017348@keith.ezwind.net> Keep the straight II. You can pick up the later models anytime, but the original II is increasingly rare. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 17:03:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:03:19 -0700 Subject: ICP N75 substitute Message-ID: <463DEE37.1938.286EAEF0@cclist.sydex.com> I found the problem with my PCW8256--it's an open "IC protector", part ICP-N75. Rated at 2.7A. Am I safe in replacing it with a far- easier-to-find-here-in-the-USA 3A picofuse? "IC protectors" must be an across-the-pond thing--I've never seen one of these before-- what are they, other than a fuse? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 13:50:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:50:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 5, 7 09:05:32 pm Message-ID: > I wonder if you could use an old network card that had both 10Base2 > and 10BaseT connections. I had an old Ansel ISA card with 4 10Base2 > ports and 1 10BaseT and I've used it that way. That sounds as though your caard had a built-in hub (was it really 4 BNCs and one RJ45? I tould have thought the other way round would be more useful). Mot cards with 2 network connectors (say 10base2 and 10baseT) simply have the transceiver circuitry for each netowrk type, and a set of links to connect either (but not both) to the ehternet chip. Now, you can't simply connect 2 transceivers back-to-back to make a network converter, you need a vit of loginc [1] to hanclde collisions, etc. And that logic wouldn't be presset on a normal network card. []] I have an old device desigend to link a pair of transceivers (it has a couple of AUI connectors on the back). It's quite complicated, there's a RAM-based state machine linked to a couple of ehternet encoder/decoder ICs, and a Z80-based microconttoller system to load the state machine RAM. So I doubt you could use a network card as a media converter Of course that logic is present in the chip you find in a 10baseT hub, which is why you can use one of those as a converter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 13:41:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:41:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCW 8256 PSU questions In-Reply-To: <463CA0C7.3534.2358359F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 5, 7 03:20:39 pm Message-ID: > I'm not eager to do much with the unit, but I thought I'd give repair > a shot before consigning it to the "scavenge and dump" pile. Does > anyone have any ideas on what might be wrong or (gasp) even a > schematic of the monitor/PSU board? I thought I mentioned last week that I have the PCW8256 service manual. Amstrad service manuals are just shcemaitcs and parts lists -- almost no faultfinding infromation. Actually, I prefer that sort of manual :-) Anyway, the only problem could be that I have the manual for the 230V mains version (not suprisingly), and it appears that there is no way to make that PSUmonitor board work on 115V mains (the mains input stage is just a bridge rectifier feeding a single smoothing capacitor, it couldn't be trivially changed into a voltage doubler). However, assuming that the secondary side ofthe supply is the same in all versions, here goes. The fact that your 24V line is present and correct inplies that the mains side of the PSU is working correctly. This is a somewhat odd PSU (for a computer) in that it rectifies the mains, chops it, and feeds it to a SMPSU-like transformer, but doesn't apply any regulation feedback from the outputs to the chopper stage. Instead there are linear regulator circuits for each of the outpuyts. I'll describe the 12V one, because (a) it's simpler than the 5V one (no overcurrent protection circuit) and (b) the 5V regulator depends on the 12V one, so if the 12V is missing or incorrect, the 5V won't come up either. The regualtor circuit uses IC5003, an AN6531 device. It's powered from the 'raw' 24V supply, it feeds Q5003 (2SD1666) which is the pass transistor for the 12V supply. There's feedback from the 12V output (emitter of that trasnsitro) to the regulator chip via a potenital divider consiting of VR5002 and R5021. Start by measuring the collector voltage of Q5003. According to the schematic, it should be 13.5V, but that is unregulated, of course. If it's missing (and I think it will be), check D6010 (the half-wave rectifier for this supply line) and ICP502 (an 'IC protector' fuse in series with the diode). This is lavelled ICP-N75 on the schematic, I forget how to work out the current rating from that (is it 75+40 = 3000mA or 3A???) My guess, actually is that ICP502 has blown. It looks like a 2-lead TO92 pacakge alonside the chopper transformer, and is the only overcurrent protection for the 12V supply. The question is 'why'. Maybe the disk drive motor took too much current or something. You might want to look into that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 17:09:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 23:09:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Upgrading my HP9816 Message-ID: I've just upgraded my HP9816 (aka HP9000/216) to have 1M RAM on the processor board,. In case anyone else has one of these machines, and wants to do the upgrade, here's how I did it. -tony Upgrading an HP9816 to 1M RAM on the processor board ---------------------------------------------------- These instructions assume you're starting with a 256K processor board, that is one with 32 4164 DRAMs fitted. Firslty remove the processor board. To do this, disconnect all cables from the rear of the 9816, then remove the DIO slot cover plate (or a DIO board witu an external connector). Remove any DIO boards in the slots -- memory voards will need to have their addresses chaged after this modification. Release the 2 quarter-turn fasteners on the rear of the machine and free the top cover from the clips under the back edge of the machine. Slide the cover rearwards, lift it off, and unplug the fan cable from the monitor PCB. Pull the processor board -- at the very bottom of the machine -- rearwards, unclip the earth wire fromthe faston tab on the RS232 connector. Slide the processor board all the way out. Now to upgrade the RAM. Desolder all 32 DRAMs from the board. These are in 2 rows at the very front edge. Leave the clock oscillator can, reset-circuit transsitor array, and resistor pack in place. Clear out the pads for U122 (to the right of the rear row of DRAMs) and R47 (leftmost resistor in the block of 3 resisotrs to the left of the ROMs) At this stage both of those locations should be empty. Fit 32 41256 (256K*1) DRAMs in place of the 64K ones that were just removed. Fit a 74F158 at U122 and a 33 Ohm resistor at R47 Cut J11 and J12 (in front of the DIP switch array). Cut J8 1-2 and link 2-3 (this likn is in fornt of U34, near the ROMs). Turn off all sections of SW3 (frontmost DIP switch). Sections 5-7 _must_ be off or the RMA will be diabled, sections 1-4 set the address of the RAM. It's simplest to have them all off, which makes the processor board RAM appear at the top of the memory map, then to address all other boards following the HP instructions, regarding the processor board RAM as a 1M board set to '0'. Refit the processor board, conencting the ground wire. Plug in the mains cable and power up. The screen should report a little under 1M free. If all appeears to be working, switch the unit off, unplug the mains cable, and refit the covers, DIO board(s) and cables. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 17:17:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 23:17:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <004501c7900a$f960c590$0b01a8c0@game> from "Teo Zenios" at May 6, 7 02:18:40 pm Message-ID: > > I'm in the same boat - Amigas with 10base2 only. Pretty much anything > > else I have that does networking has 10base2 _and_ an AUI at least. > > > > My A3000 came with a network card with rj45, very lucky there. I am wondering how hard it owuld be to remove the 10base2 transceiver chip from the Amiga's network card and kludge on a 10baseT transciever circuit. If the former is something standard like an 8392, it should be pretty easy. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 17:24:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 23:24:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: ICP N75 substitute In-Reply-To: <463DEE37.1938.286EAEF0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 6, 7 03:03:19 pm Message-ID: > > I found the problem with my PCW8256--it's an open "IC protector", Our messages crossed :-). As you'll now see, I'd dug out schematics, described the cirucit, and suggested you check that IC protector > part ICP-N75. Rated at 2.7A. Am I safe in replacing it with a far- > easier-to-find-here-in-the-USA 3A picofuse? "IC protectors" must I think so (butI am not legally responsible, OK :-)). This one is just in zeries with one of the secondaries of the chopper transformer -- between the transformer and the half-wave rectifier diode. Incientally, how do you get it as 2.7A? > be an across-the-pond thing--I've never seen one of these before-- > what are they, other than a fuse? They're quite common in consumer electronics over here. I don't think they're particularly a European thing -- they're often found in far-eastern stuff. AFAIK they are just fast-acting wire-ended fuses. Nothing really special about them. -tony From wizard at voyager.net Sun May 6 17:43:27 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 18:43:27 -0400 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463C5380.25730.222A5959@cclist.sydex.com> , <417592.78084.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <463C9ECC.16427.23507AFE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1178491407.6461.49.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Sat, 2007-05-05 at 15:12 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I note that Jeff Duntemann's got a book out called "Step by Step > Assembly". I'm not familiar with it, but do know Jeff's style of > writing from his DDJ articles. He's got a nice folksy feel to his > prose so the assembly book might be good. I agree with your assessment of Jeff Duntemann's style. I learned most easily from a 6809 book by Lance Leventhal -- he has written several, on a variety of processors. I wouldn't hesitate to buy any of them. By way of warning, however, I already knew how to program in assembly language for the 8080-Z80, CDC 6500, and Interdata IBM 360 clone by then, so I can't speak to Lance as a writer for newbies. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 17:55:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:55:18 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 5, 7 09:05:32 pm, Message-ID: <463DFA66.17421.289E4896@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 19:50, Tony Duell wrote: > That sounds as though your caard had a built-in hub (was it really 4 BNCs > and one RJ45? I tould have thought the other way round would be more useful). It was a long night--yes--it was 4 UTP and 1 BNC connector. AMD LANCE chipset. It wasn't a bad idea--if you were running a server for a small network, it did away with the need for a hub. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 18:04:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 16:04:44 -0700 Subject: ICP N75 substitute In-Reply-To: References: <463DEE37.1938.286EAEF0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 6, 7 03:03:19 pm, Message-ID: <463DFC9C.1087.28A6E823@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007 at 23:24, Tony Duell wrote: > Incientally, how do you get it as 2.7A? http://www.electronicsic.com/fuse.htm ...and a host of other places. From what I can garner from the Rohm website, "N" means "normal blow"; "F" means "fast blow". > AFAIK they are just fast-acting wire-ended fuses. Nothing really special > about them. I was hooking an older 5.25" drive onto the interface and I suspect the draw may have been a bit much. I'll give the PF 3 a go, since I've got a pile of those. Looks like this is sort of a poor man's overcurrent detector. :( Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 18:30:23 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:30:23 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Scott Austin wrote: > All, > > About a month ago I picked a nice stash from a freecycler wishing to > clean out. The summary list: Partial Apple II, II+, IIe and lots of h/w > accessories and software. The fuller list is at the end of this entry. Nice. > Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple > system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most > capability, but the II is more significant. That's pretty much it - the IIe is probably the easiest to run across, still, the II+ is easier to repair than the IIe (no custom VLSI), and the II is interesting because it's rarer than the II+, even if it has slightly more primitive graphics (simultaneous colors). > Question 2: Which accessories are significant to keep (you know, but > hate to say it: "VERY R at RE!!!")? Some > things may be rare, but I doubt I'd use them. For example, the Switch-A-Slot > (see http://tinyurl.com/2m8b3e ) The Super Serial card is a must if you want to attach a serial printer or move software to and from the machine via serial port (and don't want to use the joystick interface 'bitbanging' routines). The IEEE488 card is rare, but unless you want to talk to a PET printer or a lab voltmeter, of dubious use to the casual Apple user. If that older Disk ][ card has DOS 3.2 PROMs, that might be a keeper; otherwise, just keep one Disk ][ card per CPU you keep. I think a typical installation for a II+ would have been a language card, possibly a CP/M card, a Disk ][ card, and perhaps either a Super Serial card or a Grappler-type parallel printer interface with onboard buffer. We always appreciated the 16K (later 64K, IIRC) buffer on the Grappler-like card we had because once the last of the file hit the Grappler, you got control of the machine again, and could go do other things while the last few pages spewed out of the printer. I put a lot of hours on the Apple II+, many more than the IIe that followed. Each model has its appeal (no pun intended), but I don't recall the last time I saw a straight-II. Seen lots of II+es, and lots more IIes. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 18:50:09 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 16:50:09 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:17 PM +0100 5/6/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'm in the same boat - Amigas with 10base2 only. Pretty much anything >> > else I have that does networking has 10base2 _and_ an AUI at least. >> > >> >> My A3000 came with a network card with rj45, very lucky there. > >I am wondering how hard it owuld be to remove the 10base2 transceiver >chip from the Amiga's network card and kludge on a 10baseT transciever >circuit. If the former is something standard like an 8392, it should be >pretty easy. Personally I wouldn't be willing to risk an Amiga NIC with such an attempt, I get the impression that they're fairly uncommon. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 18:52:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:52:02 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <004501c7900a$f960c590$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'm in the same boat - Amigas with 10base2 only. Pretty much anything > > > else I have that does networking has 10base2 _and_ an AUI at least. > > > > > > > My A3000 came with a network card with rj45, very lucky there. > > I am wondering how hard it owuld be to remove the 10base2 transceiver > chip from the Amiga's network card and kludge on a 10baseT transciever > circuit. If the former is something standard like an 8392, it should be > pretty easy. It would probably be fairly easy to do that - ISTR the A2065 had a pretty standard LANCE implementation. The host side was Amiga-specific, but I expect there weren't any clever tricks on the media side of the LANCE chip. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 18:52:18 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 16:52:18 -0700 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <463DCC13.13581.27E953A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 3:52 PM -0400 5/6/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 5/6/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 6 May 2007 at 14:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> The only ones I've seen, are 10Mbit only as well. I have one I use >>> with 1 x 10base2, 8 x 10baseT, and 1 x AUI that I've slapped a >>> 10baseFL transceiver onto. >> >>I've got a PCI 10/100 card with an Intel chipset on it and it's got >>both coax and UTP connectors on it, so they *do* exist. > >I think some of the context got whacked - I was referring to hubs, not NICs. > >I haven't seen a 10/100 hub with 10base2. While the context got whacked, that's the first I've ever heard of a 10/100 NIC with a Coax connection. I assume that it would only be able to use the UTP at 100Mbit? With the Coax being 10Mbit only. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 18:56:40 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:56:40 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Personally I wouldn't be willing to risk an Amiga NIC with such an > attempt, I get the impression that they're fairly uncommon. They are somewhat uncommon, but I think you could do it with a daughter-card socket extension for the LANCE chip - plug the board into the socket and the chip into the board, and take 10baseT off of the new board. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 18:58:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 16:58:44 -0700 Subject: ICP N75 substitute In-Reply-To: <463DFC9C.1087.28A6E823@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463DEE37.1938.286EAEF0@cclist.sydex.com>, , <463DFC9C.1087.28A6E823@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463E0944.14995.28D85B5B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2007. Tony said-- > AFAIK they are just fast-acting wire-ended fuses. Nothing really special > about them. The PF3 did the trick! I dropped the idea of a 5.25" on the PCW (maybe later when the mood strikes me to add a PSU for the drive) and found a Teac FD235F with a READY jumper that seems to work just fine. Now the PCW seems to hate my (incorrectly formatted) disks just fine. Are there any images of bootable PCW diskettes posted anywhere? I'm not wild about Locoscript, but CP/M might be useful. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 18:59:20 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:59:20 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Tony Duell wrote: > []] I have an old device desigend to link a pair of transceivers (it has > a couple of AUI connectors on the back). It's quite complicated, there's > a RAM-based state machine linked to a couple of ehternet encoder/decoder > ICs, and a Z80-based microconttoller system to load the state machine RAM. I have something which appears to do the same job - link two AUI ports together - it's larger than 2 transceivers, but I don't think it's quite as complex inside - I thought it was just some clocking and some signal buffering. I'll have to crack one open and see what's inside. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 19:01:35 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:01:35 -0700 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 1:58 PM -0700 5/6/07, Scott Austin wrote: >Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple >system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most >capability, but the II is more significant. If I was to choose, I'd go with the IIe, especially after looking at the list of HW. That Mockingboard is a soundcard I believe. >Question 2: Which accessories are significant to keep (you know, but >hate to say it: "VERY R at RE!!!")? Some >things may be rare, but I doubt I'd use them. For example, the Switch-A-Slot >(see http://tinyurl.com/2m8b3e ) Oh, now that's way cool! I've never even heard of such a thing, and with some of the cards you have you might want to keep it as well. Good grief, I just read through them again, I'm not sure what to suggest. At the very least these 4 cards. Realistically I'm inclined to recommend keeping all the cards. >Transware Accelerator (Is this a CPU accelerator?) >CMS SCSI II >Apple Super Serial Card II >Apple IIe 80 Col/64K Memory Expansion I'd also recommend keeping all the software and books. Very nice haul! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 19:11:58 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:11:58 -0700 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:30 PM -0400 5/6/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: >want to use the joystick interface 'bitbanging' routines). The >IEEE488 card is rare, but unless you want to talk to a PET printer or >a lab voltmeter, of dubious use to the casual Apple user. If that Based on the AD card, and a couple others, I'm guessing that at least one of the systems was used in a lab environment. >followed. Each model has its appeal (no pun intended), but I don't >recall the last time I saw a straight-II. Seen lots of II+es, and >lots more IIes. I have every Apple "Apple II" model in my collection with the exception of a Straight-II, a IIc+, and I don't believe I have a Woz or ROM3 IIgs (it seems to me I got a Woz, but never made it home). I saw a IIc+ once, and still regret not buying it, I've never seen a straight-II for sale. I used to have several clones as well, but I think they were all given away. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun May 6 19:23:00 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 21:23:00 -0300 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0a0301c7903e$2d7dcde0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >>Transware Accelerator (Is this a CPU accelerator?) Transwarp maybe? It was a 3.6MHz accelerator that made wonders to the //e. I'd love to have another //e...I miss mine! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 6 20:43:52 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:43:52 -0400 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDB@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDB@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <463E8458.3090107@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Well that's interesting... > >It would seem that as long as Mentec choose to ignore non-commercial use >you can do (within reason) what you like. I did say pdp preserver as >opposed to RT, RSX or RSTS preserver. >However I must admit to having worked in digital SWS and to having been >part of the VMS marketing group I do have an interest in the software >side. > Jerome Fine replies: Hold on - I stated that everything being suggested was ONLY with regard to RT-11. While I also agree that eventually RSX-11 and RSTS/E will probably be handled in the same manner, that does not seem to have been the case in the past. In particular, I have the impression that RSX-11 distributions, although officially approved of in the same license as RT-11 for use with the DEC emulator, always remained difficult to obtain. However, since I never attempted to use RSX-11, I can't comment. On the other hand, RT-11 was very quickly available for download as soon as that license to run V05.03 of RT-11 and prior versions was made explicitly known to this list and certain newsgroups. >DEC were quite keen on educational computing and that's how they would >have viewed a hobbyist program. As HP now effectivly own what was DEC I >assume the agreement is now between them and Mentec. > It does not really seem that either HP or Mentec are interested in spending money on lawyers. HP and Mentec do seem to be very concerned that if any of the latest versions of the PDP-11 operating systems which include RT-11, RSX-11 and RSTS/E are made available free of charge and without a formal license being signed to even hobby users for strictly non-commercial use that the result would also be free use for commercial users. At least that is my assumption since I can't think of anything else that might cause a problem. Can anyone else comment on what might happen if Mentec were to allow hobby users to freely run without any restrictions either V05.03 of RT-11 or possibly even all RT-11 software, in particular with regard to commercial users of RT-11 or for hobby users of RSX-11 and RSTS/E? >It seems that many efforts to set up a hobbyist (or collectors program) >have come to nought due to Mentec seeing no profit in the arrangement. > That is also my assumption. It was also my assumption that hobby programs allow students to become capable of supporting commercial systems as well as producing interesting enhancements for and finding bugs in operating systems. As long as the operating system software is still being sold and producing sufficient profit, a hobby program is often a benefit and support to the operating system. Once the profit level becomes too low, starting a hobby program seems no longer useful and perhaps that is how HP and Mentec view a hobby program for the PDP-11 software which Mentec handles. >Needless to say as a DEC hardware collector a simulator is of no >interest to me. > > I am always confused by this viewpoint. Please explain. If you don't really care about the software, then why do you care which software is being used by the hardware? In fact, why is it necessary to run any software at all? I would have expected that the XXDP diagnostics would be more than sufficient to exercise the actual DEC hardware and provide the feeling that the actual DEC hardware is being used. On the other hand, I am quite obviously interested in the functionally of the software and the manner in which the various software components relate to each. As a result, an emulator is often much more useful than the actual DEC hardware. In respect of using E11, about the only real difference that I notice is that the RT-11 programs tend to execute about 100 times as fast on a current 3 GHz Pentium 4 as on a PDP-11/93, including both CPU and I/O, indeed especially disk I/O; the available storage is also likely to be measured in the 1000 times capacity since 500 GigiByte hard disk drives now cost less than the 600 MegaByte Maxtor ESDI XT8760E that I purchased for $ 600 at an end-of-line sale around 10 to 15 years ago. As a result, one of the enhancements that I plan for RT-11 is to allow up to 65536 RT-11 partitions which will allow for hard disk drives up to 2 TeraBytes. Anyone interested? >>Hi All >> I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the >>rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they >>seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site >>that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. No >> >>mention of pdp anything. >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >First of all, please remember I am ONLY interested in RT-11. And while >I have had contact with and used a bit of RSX-11 and a very extensive >amount of RSTS/E, I was never responsible of a system which ran RSX-11 >or RSTS/E. Which is the primary reason that I never became proficient >enough to maintain either an RSX-11 or a RSTS/E system. On the other >hand, I may now know RT-11 as well as some of the top RT-11 developers >knew RT-11 during the 1980s. > >As for why Mentec no longer actively supports any of the PDP-11 systems, >I venture to guess that it is no longer profitable. > > > >>As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around >>how >>RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have >>not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they >>could help us poor pdp preservers. >> >> >> >Mentec has helped the poor PDP-11 preservers. Unfortunately, it is not >obvious since the help is more in not causing those poor PDP-11 >preservers any difficulties as opposed to being proactive by making the >operating systems generally available such as Borland products are at >present. Also an example is the VMS hobby program which Mentec does not >have. > >In addition, as others have mentioned in their replies, it seems very >doubtful that Mentec really did "totally own" the >PDP-11 operating systems. Unfortunately, it seems highly probable that >the terms of the agreement between Mentec and DEC required the parties >to maintain confidentiality since I can't see why those terms have never >been publicly disclosed - unless those terms were so detrimental to the >users that neither party wanted to admit the mistakes in the lack of a >PDP-11 hobby program in the face of the VMS hobby license program. But >what did happen did, what did not happen did not - the stories and >interpretations that many of us make up about what happened are probably >90% fiction and are no longer even important. > >BUT, Mentec did make older versions of the operating systems available >for legal non-commercial use under what was at the time a DEC owned >emulator. It certainly seemed questionable at the time and it may be >even more questionable at present, but Mentec has chosen to make no >challenge to the use of those older versions of the operating systems >under the current name of that DEC emulator which has evolved to become >SIMH. In addition, Mentec also seems to be ignoring the legal >requirement for a transfer of any operating system license to the new >owner of any old PDP-11 hardware so long as, at least as far I can >interpret, the new owner is non-commercial. Certainly there have been >numerous discussions on classiccmp (one is going on right now about a >single RL02 system) over PDP-11 use of the RT-11 operating system (i.e. >NOT under SIMH) and I can't remember any recent protests from Mentec in >this regard. > >Any finally, while the RSX-11 and RSTS/E operating systems are much more >tightly controlled and not very easily available, almost 10 years ago, >Megan Gentry, a former RT-11 developer, put a zip file of V05.03 of >RT-11 up for general download with the explicit permission of the >individuals who had to provide that permission. V05.03 of RT-11 is the >last binary distribution allowed under the DEC emulator and by inference >under SIMH. There is also a CD version (an ISO file) which contains as >many as possible of the RT-11 binary versions as could reasonably be >found for all of V05.03 of RT-11 and prior. Any for those individuals >who are legally licensed to run the latest version of RT-11, V05.07 >released in October of 1998 or just under 9 years ago, there is also a >CD containing the rest of the RT-11 binary distributions. The latter CD >was requested by a university who was legally licensed to use and >already had a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 and was legally entitled to a >backup of all of the RT-11 binary distributions. > >So - I don't really think that there are any "poor pdp preservers" >as far as RT-11 is concerned. In point of fact, I have personally found >ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in the last 5 years in: >(a) Preserving RT-11, >(b) Fixing any bugs in RT-11 >(c) Making any enhancements in RT-11 >Of course, for individuals in the know, most of them already have >sufficiently preserved what they want of RT-11. On the other hand, even >though I have made a number of vital bug fixes to >RT-11 (for problems that crash RT-11) along with other minor problems as >well as some extensive enhancements, I have yet to find anyone who is >even interested in a Y3K for RT-11, let alone someone who would be >interested in participating. > >Of course, Y3K may already have been done, the enhancements that I have >already completed may have been duplicated along with many other >enhancements and the bugs fixed as well and distributed to the users of >RT-11. Perhaps I just don't know that it has all occurred without a >word of it reaching my eyes and ears. > >But, as a result, I have place (a), (b) and (c) into a lower priority >and focused on attempting something even less useful, i.e. confirming >the value of pi(10^18) using a sieve program running under RT-11 with a >view to attempting to determine pi(10^24). When I find that it will >take a million years to finish the calculations for pi(10^24) with >current computers, I may shift back to (a), (b) and (c) if I can't find >something even less useful than knowing the value for pi(10^24). > >On the other hand, if anyone is really interested, drop me a line. If >anyone really knows why Mentec does not have a hobby program for PDP-11 >operating systems, let us know. Just don't complain about RT-11 and >Mentec since nothing that Mentec seems to be doing at present interferes >with "poor pdp preservers" >as far as RT-11 is concerned. In 16 more years, which will be 25 years >after V05.07 of RT-11 was released, I very seriously doubt that Mentec >will care if every hobby user who wants a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 is >using it on real DEC hardware, let alone if there is a running emulator >on what goes for a PC in the year 2023 when I will be 84 years old if I >am still kicking. > >As for commercial sites still running RT-11, if they don't already have >the Y2K compliant V05.07 of RT-11, then I very much doubt that they will >require V05.07 in the year 2023. >And if those commercial sites are managing with the current bugs in >RT-11 9 years after V05.07 was released, well ... > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine >-- >If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has >been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the >semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four >characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 20:47:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 21:47:05 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:58 PM -0700 5/6/07, Scott Austin wrote: > >Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple > >system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most > >capability, but the II is more significant. > > If I was to choose, I'd go with the IIe, especially after looking at > the list of HW. That Mockingboard is a soundcard I believe. It is a sound card. I forgot to mention that you might want to keep it. ISTR it's something like a 4-channel software-driven multi-voice sound card - unusual in a day when "sound" was either a CB2 shiftregister output from a 6522 or a single-bit like the speaker output on a PC. They weren't very common, but back in the day, they were cool to play with. -ethan From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 6 20:56:28 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:56:28 -0400 Subject: wonderful assembly language book In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 06 May 2007 15:39:12 EDT." <20070506193911.GA14704@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <200705070156.l471uS39011241@mwave.heeltoe.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >Richard seemed to be claiming that there was such a variety today of >commonly-availbe general-purpose CPUs (because of FPGAs), but maybe I >just mis-understood him. I wish that were more true. FPGA's are pretty limiting, and most cpu's tend to be very "riscy" with limited pipelining and small register files. but then again, there are a lot of 8 bit and PIC fpga designs out there, as well as number of 16 bit designs, so there is some variety. most tend (from what i've seen, which is not a lot) tend to be "direct decode", i.e. no microcode with a tight register/alu pathway. Most of what I see are commercial cpu's using licensed IP. I'd like to see a lot more application specific micro sequencers, but that just because I like microcode :-) -brad From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun May 6 20:59:19 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:59:19 -0400 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463E87F7.2000709@nktelco.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have something which appears to do the same job - link two AUI ports > together - it's larger than 2 transceivers, but I don't think it's > quite as complex inside - I thought it was just some clocking and some > signal buffering. I'll have to crack one open and see what's inside. There are schematics for DEC's network concentrator DELNI with 8 AUI ports on bitsavers. -chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun May 6 21:05:03 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 22:05:03 -0400 Subject: DEC XXDP ZRQC?? source listing Message-ID: <463E894F.1010801@nktelco.net> I am looking for the source listings for the RQDX3 disk formatting utility ZRQC from XXDP. I am wondering if they are part of the diagnostic micro-fiches. I think there are a couple people on the list with copies of the fiches. I want to try formatting some non-DEC hard drives. A search of the web shows that some have been successful in patching the drive description tables to format a drive with non-standard geometry, but I think getting the parameters for Bad Block Replacement right is the tough part. Maybe the formatter sources will help. -chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun May 6 21:06:56 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 22:06:56 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives Message-ID: <463E89C0.2000702@nktelco.net> Can the Pro380 be used with RX33 drives in place of the RX50? The Pro technical manual doesn't say anything about the RX33. It also doesn't say that there is a way to change the floppy data rate, so I am guessing it does not support them. Can the Pro380 be used with any ST506/ST412 type hard disks or just RD50, RD51, and RD52? I have a couple RD32 and some non-DEC drives and am curious if any of the could be used with it. How do you format a drive for a Pro? I never noticed any support for Professionals in XXDP? Was there a utility in P/OS for that purpose? -chuck From james.rice at gmail.com Sun May 6 21:21:11 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:21:11 -0600 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: <463E87F7.2000709@nktelco.net> References: <463CF19C.7631.2493F1EA@cclist.sydex.com> <463E87F7.2000709@nktelco.net> Message-ID: I think this may be what he is looking for. For a while Milan was part of Digi. http://www.milan.com/TransitionNetworks/Products2/Family.aspx?Name=J%2fE-CX-TBT-02 I have found them for a few bucks in surplus shops before. I may still have a few of them packed away somewhere. > > > -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From spectre at floodgap.com Sun May 6 21:47:47 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "May 6, 7 05:11:58 pm" Message-ID: <200705070247.l472llU7011558@floodgap.com> > I have every Apple "Apple II" model in my collection with the > exception of a Straight-II, a IIc+, and I don't believe I have a Woz > or ROM3 IIgs (it seems to me I got a Woz, but never made it home). I have the best of both worlds -- a ROM 03 in a Woz case! The SCSI drive, RAM card and TransWarp GS don't hurt either. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one. -- Phil White -------- From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 6 22:08:21 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 23:08:21 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463E9825.4080207@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I have every Apple "Apple II" model in my collection with the exception > of a Straight-II, a IIc+, and I don't believe I have a Woz or ROM3 IIgs > (it seems to me I got a Woz, but never made it home). I saw a IIc+ > once, and still regret not buying it, I've never seen a straight-II for > sale. I used to have several clones as well, but I think they were all > given away. I'm actually looking for a monitor for my //c+, if anyone comes across one they don't want for themselves. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 22:35:49 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:35:49 -0700 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: <463E9825.4080207@gmail.com> References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <463E9825.4080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:08 PM -0400 5/6/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >I'm actually looking for a monitor for my //c+, if anyone comes >across one they don't want for themselves. The LCD or the CRT? The CRT's used to be semi-easy to come by, the LCD is another of those things I've never seen. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 6 22:46:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 23:46:33 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <463E9825.4080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:08 PM -0400 5/6/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >I'm actually looking for a monitor for my //c+, if anyone comes > >across one they don't want for themselves. > > The LCD or the CRT? The CRT's used to be semi-easy to come by, the > LCD is another of those things I've never seen. I've seen (and bought) the CRTs at Dayton, but that was a few years back. I did see one LCD once, but it was on display, not for sale. :-( -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 6 22:46:56 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 20:46:56 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463E2883.6020108@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: >From: Philip Pemberton > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>The ones I'm thinking of are 8" systems, where the drive has separate >>outputs for SECTOR and INDEX. There's no compelling reason to pay >>attention to INDEX in many applications--and some systems reflect this. > >OK then, looks like I *do* need to read the SA800 docs then... > Hi Not all 8 inch drives select out the index from the sectors. Only the ones that say they are for hard sectored ( although, my Nicolet 1080 uses the type that doesn't separate the two and is hard sectored ). I'd have to reread the documents on the SA drives but there was something like the dash number that made the difference. The 800/801 was with and without data/clock separator ( may have these backwards ). Look it up. The ones that state they were for hard sectored have the separator. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Download Messenger. Join the i?m Initiative. Help make a difference today. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07 From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 6 23:02:02 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 00:02:02 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <463E9825.4080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <463EA4BA.8010605@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I'm actually looking for a monitor for my //c+, if anyone comes across >> one they don't want for themselves. > > The LCD or the CRT? The CRT's used to be semi-easy to come by, the LCD > is another of those things I've never seen. Either would do, but I'd prefer if I could find one in platinum instead of beige, so that it matches my //c+. Of course, I'd love to find an LCD, but I'm not holding my breath. Peace... Sridhar From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun May 6 23:34:11 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 06:34:11 +0200 Subject: Some Vax 3800 questions ... Message-ID: <463EAC43.1000109@bluewin.ch> Today I tried out my new (18 year old) Microvax 3800 . (tk70, ethernet, rf31, rf72, scsi ). I removed the KDA50 boards. The system tries to boot into VMS5.4, but hangs because it seems to look for diskarrays that are no longer present. Is it possible to boot into a root mode to change the startup behaviour ? Of course passwords are not available. I am also looking for some brackets to mount the RF's into the BA-213. ( The drives came from a ba-400 chassis ) Or are other smart mounting solutions posssible ? Finally, are DSSI and SCSI terminators identical ? To make place for the 3800, a Microvax II/gpx has to go . Working, needs new disk, located in Zurich, Switzerland. Jos Dreesen From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 6 23:41:48 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 00:41:48 -0400 Subject: Some Vax 3800 questions ... In-Reply-To: <463EAC43.1000109@bluewin.ch> References: <463EAC43.1000109@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200705070041.48136.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 07 May 2007 00:34, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Today I tried out my new (18 year old) Microvax 3800 . > (tk70, ethernet, rf31, rf72, scsi ). I removed the KDA50 boards. > > The system tries to boot into VMS5.4, but hangs because it seems to > look for diskarrays that are no longer present. > > Is it possible to boot into a root mode to change the startup > behaviour ? Of course passwords are not available. Look at the OpenVMS FAQ (somewhere on HP's website, google should find it) on how to recover a lost system password. The same technique should let you in before the system tries to mount any disks. > Finally, are DSSI and SCSI terminators identical ? No. If you plug something SCSI into the DSSI bus, you'll likely blow the termination power fuse on the CPU board (I know because I did it once myself, long ago ;). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon May 7 00:09:51 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 22:09:51 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/07, Jason T wrote: > I've spotted this nice setup locally, wondering if the guy is asking > way too much for it: > > http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/sys/322279611.html > > If the link goes dead, it's an IBM 5110 PC, 5103 Printer and 5114 dual > floppy unit. > > Yeah, I know, it's worth what people will pay for it. But I don't > even see any completed on ePay, so I can't begin to gauge the > appropriate value. Those big floppy drives are calling me, though... I think it is cheap. The last few I saw sold for over $1000. I saw one go at $600 that did not work and had no accessories. This has the large disk drive and a printer. I think it is good deal. The OBO (or best offer) means he may take less. I have never seen a disk drive unit, and hav e had three 5XXXs go through my hands. Ask before it dissappears. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon May 7 00:12:32 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 22:12:32 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Is that a model 1 (with built in tape drive) or a model 2 (without tape > drive)? > Looks like the model 1 with the 1/2 inch tape drive to me. What keyboard is it is another question? APL was a special and is more valuable. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon May 7 00:24:24 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 22:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <463E89C0.2000702@nktelco.net> References: <463E89C0.2000702@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2007, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > Can the Pro380 be used with any ST506/ST412 type hard disks or just RD50, > RD51, and RD52? I have a couple RD32 and some non-DEC drives and am curious > if any of the could be used with it. How do you format a drive for a Pro? I > never noticed any support for Professionals in XXDP? Was there a utility in > P/OS for that purpose? You're pretty much limited to what the driver supports unless you want to do some hacking. I've used a 350 with an ST-251, but I worked over the RT-11 device driver. And I never did get it working exactly right; every now and then the driver would make a zooping noise like it was doing a long seek when going to adjacent cylinders. Never did figure that one out. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From fsmith at ladylinux.com Mon May 7 00:27:52 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 01:27:52 -0400 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705070516.l475FCnT089484@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705070516.l475FCnT089484@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200705070127.52733.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Monday 07 May 2007 01:16:10 am cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: Hiya, I am bit confused by this whole Mentec thread on one point. I have a 11/23+ here and with it the original DEC labled RSX11 and RT11 media that came with it. Am I allowed to use these distributions. ?? I am assuming yes. Is this thread pretty much about others reusing RSX11 and RT11 freely in a hobbist sense without original media ?? I guess what I am confused about is that most every PDP I ever saw came with RT11 and or RSX11 bundled. So whats the license deal ?? -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 7 00:29:32 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 22:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If I was to choose, I'd go with the IIe, especially after looking at > > the list of HW. That Mockingboard is a soundcard I believe. > > It is a sound card. I forgot to mention that you might want to keep > it. ISTR it's something like a 4-channel software-driven multi-voice > sound card - unusual in a day when "sound" was either a CB2 > shiftregister output from a 6522 or a single-bit like the speaker > output on a PC. > > They weren't very common, but back in the day, they were cool to play with. I remember pining for one of those things to use with Ultima V. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 7 00:57:31 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 00:57:31 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705062257n400d532dgdb3874035ab9a4dd@mail.gmail.com> On 5/7/07, Paxton Hoag wrote: > > Is that a model 1 (with built in tape drive) or a model 2 (without tape > > drive)? > > > > Looks like the model 1 with the 1/2 inch tape drive to me. What > keyboard is it is another question? APL was a special and is more > valuable. I don't think they one he has linked is the one for sale. That's someone else's machine. I've asked him about the tape drive and keyboard in email, though. Speaking of APL keyboards, I ran across a IBM Model M with APL keycaps at a hamfest last summer. I didn't even know what it was at first. Made my day when I got home and looked it up :) From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun May 6 14:22:46 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:22:46 +0100 Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Ooops missed out a step! The cheap hub with the BNC is 10Mbit but its connected to another hub that is a switch ie does both 10Mbits and 100Mbits. Now you can go from BNC (Thin ethernet) at 10Mbs to UTP at 100Mbs Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 06 May 2007 17:31 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: RE: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? At 5:18 AM +0100 5/6/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Get a cheap hub that has both 10/100baseT and BNC. Mine is a Dynamode >DM-809STP. I use it to convert the BNC output from my VAX to 100BaseT >on my network. How common are 10/100BaseT Hubs with a BNC connection? I know I've never seen one. Any hub I've seen with a BNC connection has been limited to 10Mbit. The original posters problem just happens to be half the reason I even care about 10Base2, my Amiga 3000's NIC only has a BNC connection, I also have this problem with my DECserver 90L+. Though I'm not using either at the moment. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sun May 6 15:01:48 2007 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 22:01:48 +0200 Subject: Some Vax 3800 questions ... Message-ID: <463E342C.4030604@bluewin.ch> Today I tried out my new (18 year old) Microvax 3800 . (tk70, ethernet, rf31, rf72, scsi ). I removed the KDA50 boards. The system tries to boot into VMS5.4, but hangs because it seems to look for diskarrays that are no longer present. Is it possible to boot into a root mode to change the startup behaviour ? Of course passwords are not available. I am also looking for some brackets to mount the RF's into the BA-213. ( The drives came from a ba-400 chassis ) Or are other smart mounting solutions posssible ? Finally, are DSSI and SCSI terminators identical ? To make place for the 3800, a Microvax II/gpx has to go . Working, needs new disk, located in Zurich, Switzerland. Jos Dreesen From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sun May 6 15:17:28 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 22:17:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 10base-2 to 10base-t media convertor? In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022ED9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <19102.217.225.85.127.1178482648.squirrel@217.225.85.127> Zane H. Healy said: > At 5:18 AM +0100 5/6/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>Get a cheap hub that has both 10/100baseT and BNC. Mine is a Dynamode >>DM-809STP. I use it to convert the BNC output from my VAX to 100BaseT on >>my network. > > How common are 10/100BaseT Hubs with a BNC connection? I know I've > never seen one. Any hub I've seen with a BNC connection has been > limited to 10Mbit. I'd also point this out. Cheapernet wasn't specified for 100MBit, so a hub that transfers 100Mbit won't do this on the BNC connector - or it would have to be a switch that could translate the rates. But at the time 100MBit switches became cheap enough, there was already an infrastructure for twisted pair, and noone normally needed BNC connections anymore. -- Holger From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 04:10:20 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:10:20 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463E417A.7010008@yahoo.co.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463D923A.26077.27075C87@cclist.sydex.com>, <463E0AD2.6070504@philpem.me.uk> <463DAB9A.3436.276A7B2E@cclist.sydex.com> <463E2883.6020108@philpem.me.uk> <463E417A.7010008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <463EECFC.5080501@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, any chance of making the connector more of a CPU bus, with a > handful of address lines? Then you just plug in a little module, one per > floppy drive, to give that drive an ID on the bus. Sounds like a good plan. Adding stuff like that isn't hard - because the CPLD only handles read, write and indexing, everything else (drive selection, density select output, motor on/off signalling, basically everything that doesn't need fantastically accurate timing) is handled by a microcontroller. Adding more I/Os at TTL level is just a case of adding more links from the MCU to the output ports. The big problem is that this is going to add an extra connector to the drive interface box... > My thinking is that supporting just two drive types isn't enough in a > general archive box, and even four might not cut it. The only overhead > is a data cable per floppy drive, and a few buffer / address decoding > ICs... Would eight drives be enough for you, or would you prefer sixteen? :) Open-collector or TTL outputs? > The module would have a standard 34 pin connector for drive signals on > it, or I suppose there might be special-case variants for 8" or for some > really oddball setups. What I don't want to end up doing is designing something that needs a box full of addon modules to use, or becomes useless if those modules are lost. The plan is to build something that can handle 80% of the work as-is, then do the other 20% with the help of AOMs. > (I was tempted to say you could make the modules plug straight into the > back of the drives, similar to SCSI SCA adapters, and then just have a > single bus cable connecting them all up, but the lack of any standard as > to placement of a floppy drive's data connector makes that problematic) So use an IDC header or something, have the board push into the drive, then have a flylead connecting up the power. Did I mention USB didn't have enough oomph to power the CPLD, MCU *and* a disc drive as well? You're going to need a 5V + 12V + whatever PSU for the drive, but the box itself will snaffle power from the laptop/desktop machine you've got it hooked up to. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 7 04:37:55 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:37:55 +0100 Subject: DEC XXDP ZRQC?? source listing In-Reply-To: <463E894F.1010801@nktelco.net> References: <463E894F.1010801@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <463EF373.5070702@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/05/2007 03:05, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > I am looking for the source listings for the RQDX3 disk formatting > utility ZRQC from XXDP. I am wondering if they are part of the > diagnostic micro-fiches. I think there are a couple people on the list > with copies of the fiches. I've got the fiche, but no way to scan it or print it :-( The listing is quite long. > I want to try formatting some non-DEC hard drives. A search of the web > shows that some have been successful in patching the drive description > tables to format a drive with non-standard geometry, but I think getting > the parameters for Bad Block Replacement right is the tough part. Maybe > the formatter sources will help. I've done that, a long time ago (1991). I can't remember the details, but I recall I had to understand a whole lot of things in the table that the formatter uses. Something like 34 entries, not just half a dozen. Some are easy, of course, like number of heads, cylinders; some are easy to copy from other entries, like the gap lengths; some aren't hard to work out, like the "media word" which is an encoded version of the drive name. It gets a bit more interesting if you try to do the same with the tables in the RQDX2 ROMs, which I also did. And the RQDX2 ROMs contain a checksum :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 7 04:37:58 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:37:58 +0100 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <463E89C0.2000702@nktelco.net> References: <463E89C0.2000702@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <463EF376.1060009@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/05/2007 03:06, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > Can the Pro380 be used with RX33 drives in place of the RX50? The Pro > technical manual doesn't say anything about the RX33. It also doesn't > say that there is a way to change the floppy data rate, so I am guessing > it does not support them. I don't think so, but others may know more. > Can the Pro380 be used with any ST506/ST412 type hard disks or just > RD50, RD51, and RD52? I have a couple RD32 and some non-DEC drives and > am curious if any of the could be used with it. How do you format a > drive for a Pro? I never noticed any support for Professionals in XXDP? > Was there a utility in P/OS for that purpose? I guess you need to format it the way you would for an RQDX1, with XXDP. I do know that it shares some low-level code with the early RQDXs, and uses similar sniffers to determine the drive type, so you can't just use any drive -- it has to look like one of the ones a Pro supports. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 05:43:30 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 11:43:30 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463F02D2.402@philpem.me.uk> dwight elvey wrote: > I'd have to reread the documents on the SA drives but there > was something like the dash number that made the difference. > The 800/801 was with and without data/clock separator ( may > have these backwards ). You're absolutely correct (according to the Shugart SA800 OEM manual on Bitsavers) - the SA800 only provides the Index pulse, the SA801 also provides the Sector pulse, and splits the sector pulses from the index pulses. Strange that the SA800 only provides an index pulse once per revolution - I guess it's intended for soft-sector discs. Given that there's no indexing on the hub like there is on 3.5" drives, the SA800 would probably output one index pulse every time an index hole was detected - if you used soft-sector discs that would be one pulse per rev, or 32+1 pulses if you used 32-sector hard-sector discs. All adds to the fun, I guess :) Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 7 06:16:51 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:16:51 +0100 Subject: Some Vax 3800 questions ... In-Reply-To: <463E342C.4030604@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 6/5/07 21:01, "Jos Dreesen" wrote: > Is it possible to boot into a root mode to change the startup behaviour > ? Of course passwords are not available. >>> b/1 SYSBOOT> set startup_p1 "MIN" SYSBOOT> set uafalt 1 SYSBOOT> c . . . Log in as system and ignore the 2 password prompts. There'll be a problem if the system actually DOES have an alternate UAF file! $ set proc/priv=all $ set term/inq/perm $ define sysuaf sys$common:[sysexe]sysuaf.dat $ mc authorize UAF> mo system/pass=password/nowpdlif UAF> exit Then you can edit SYSTARTUP_V5.com and SYLOGICALS.COM to take out stuff that the machine no longer has and shut the system down. >>>b/1 SYSBOOT> set startup_p1 "" SYSBOOT> set uafalt 0 SYSBOOT> c Then you can log in with the new password. > I am also looking for some brackets to mount the RF's into the BA-213. > ( The drives came from a ba-400 chassis ) Or are other smart mounting > solutions posssible ? > > Finally, are DSSI and SCSI terminators identical ? No, as Pat points out DSSI is very susceptible to fuse blowing, but the VAX engineers obviously knew people would do things to upset it - the 2a pico fuse is easily accessible on the back of the console plate (behind where you plug in the console cable IIRC) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 7 06:29:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 06:29:46 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F02D2.402@philpem.me.uk> References: <463F02D2.402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Strange that the SA800 only provides an index pulse once per revolution > - I guess it's intended for soft-sector discs. I believe that's right; the 801 is the hard-sectored version. The 850 is a double-sided version of the 800, and the 851 is a double-sided version of the 801. The 85x docs talk about MFM data though, whereas I don't think that the 80x docs do. I'm not sure if there's any good technical reason that the 80x drives can't handle an MFM data stream, though. (I think there might be some on-board "helper" circuitry for separating FM clock/data bits on at least some of the 80x flavours - but I think this can be jumpered out so that the controller does the stream encoding/decoding instead). > Given that there's no > indexing on the hub like there is on 3.5" drives, the SA800 would > probably output one index pulse every time an index hole was detected - > if you used soft-sector discs that would be one pulse per rev, or 32+1 > pulses if you used 32-sector hard-sector discs. Aren't hard-sectored 8" floppies available in more than just 32 sectors/track flavours? It's no big deal if your circuitry is analysing timing relationships to detect index pulse, but it obviously is if the circuitry's relying on timing windows as the timing will be different for a 32-sector disk versus one with n sectors... (I've only got the SA400 manual here, but the index/sector detection circuitry uses different timing depending on the media used - I presume because 5.25" hard sectored media was also available with different numbers of sectors per track) cheers Jules -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 7 06:44:48 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:44:48 +0100 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem Message-ID: Hi folks, Yesterday I picked up a Multitech Microprofessor II* plus some other goodies like an EACA Video Genie and lots of useful Sinclair QL bits, only a 7.5 hour round trip too :) On inspecting the MPF-II's box, I'm guessing it's been sat in a cupboard since 1985 as a lot of the internal walls have reacted badly with the PVC cables, some of them have been eaten through. What plastic can I wrap the cables in to avoid any more damage? Polythene wrap? Cheers, *never seen one in the wild before, or even on auction sites.....IIRC it was largely designed to be Apple ][ compatible..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From river at zip.com.au Mon May 7 07:42:16 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 22:42:16 +1000 Subject: SC/MP LCDS In-Reply-To: <200705070516.l475FCnb089484@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070507124216.F23888C07@mailproxy1.pacific.net.au> Hi, I don't know if you saw the SC/MP LCDS (Low Cost Development System) for sale on eBay (Australia) last week, but I bought it. I've been looking for one of these babies for a long time, and to find one for sale near where I live was too good to be true. Indeed! It's dead. Hehehehe, but it has all the parts and manuals, schematics and ROM listing. So, I guess I'm going to be busy in the next few weeks while I try and trace the fault. It's getting the right voltage, so I am assuming it's a bad chip or a ROM has gone bad. I'll get the CRO onto it and try and read the ROMS to find out what's going on. It came with both a SC/MP I and a SC/MP II processor card. Neither card works in the system so I am assuming it's a main board fault. I got a homebrew SC/MP system and some spare CPUs so I can chop and change and hopefully get this old system running. I'll let you know how I go. river From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon May 7 08:10:42 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 13:10:42 +0000 Subject: Chicago Goose Island Recycling Center Message-ID: <050720071310.25898.463F25520009A7650000652A22007354469DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> I went to the City of Chicago Recycling Center on Goose Island yesterday to drop off some old monitors. They do not sell what they take in, which is mainly PC's, monitors, and printers. Some get fixed up for schools, etc., but most get recycled. In true Chicago fashion, when I asked if they sold any of the intake, the attendant said no, but he had a cousin who I could buy some items from. All in all, not a place to get classic equipment, but a good place to dispose of dead monitors. Bob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 7 05:58:24 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 06:58:24 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives Message-ID: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> >Can the Pro380 be used with any ST506/ST412 type hard disks or just >RD50, RD51, and RD52? I have a couple RD32 and some non-DEC drives and >am curious if any of the could be used with it. How do you format a >drive for a Pro? I never noticed any support for Professionals in XXDP? > Was there a utility in P/OS for that purpose? > >-chuck > > The answer is yes but the drives have to have the propper low level format. That low level format cannot be done with a PC. It can be done on a Qbus system with RQDX1/2 controller and XXDP. The OS however expects only standard drvies. RD50 == ST506 RD51 == ST412 RD52 == D540 (qunatum) Other drives that have been used were RD31 == ST225 RD32 == ST250 Allison From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon May 7 06:07:19 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 12:07:19 +0100 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Jerome We seem to be converging on our views. The simulator is a simple issue. I want to see the old systems run and live again. If I had spent years restoring an old aircraft to flying condition I would not park it and use MS flight simulator instead! RT-11, RSX-11M & RSX11-D, and RSTS were all current when I joined DEC in 1975. The hardware to support them (Mentec excepted) has not been made for at least ten years. The answer may lie a little deeper. I think what may lie at the back of it is if they provide it they may be liable for any damage it does. Licenses do not change laws and the law of the land will always take precedence. It might be a risk based decision. However I'd still like to know what are the answers to the fundimental questions: 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? 3. Why have Mentec removed all mention of PDP-11 products from their web sites. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine Sent: 07 May 2007 02:44 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Mentec >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Well that's interesting... > >It would seem that as long as Mentec choose to ignore non-commercial >use you can do (within reason) what you like. I did say pdp preserver >as opposed to RT, RSX or RSTS preserver. >However I must admit to having worked in digital SWS and to having been >part of the VMS marketing group I do have an interest in the software >side. > Jerome Fine replies: Hold on - I stated that everything being suggested was ONLY with regard to RT-11. While I also agree that eventually RSX-11 and RSTS/E will probably be handled in the same manner, that does not seem to have been the case in the past. In particular, I have the impression that RSX-11 distributions, although officially approved of in the same license as RT-11 for use with the DEC emulator, always remained difficult to obtain. However, since I never attempted to use RSX-11, I can't comment. On the other hand, RT-11 was very quickly available for download as soon as that license to run V05.03 of RT-11 and prior versions was made explicitly known to this list and certain newsgroups. >DEC were quite keen on educational computing and that's how they would >have viewed a hobbyist program. As HP now effectivly own what was DEC I >assume the agreement is now between them and Mentec. > It does not really seem that either HP or Mentec are interested in spending money on lawyers. HP and Mentec do seem to be very concerned that if any of the latest versions of the PDP-11 operating systems which include RT-11, RSX-11 and RSTS/E are made available free of charge and without a formal license being signed to even hobby users for strictly non-commercial use that the result would also be free use for commercial users. At least that is my assumption since I can't think of anything else that might cause a problem. Can anyone else comment on what might happen if Mentec were to allow hobby users to freely run without any restrictions either V05.03 of RT-11 or possibly even all RT-11 software, in particular with regard to commercial users of RT-11 or for hobby users of RSX-11 and RSTS/E? >It seems that many efforts to set up a hobbyist (or collectors program) >have come to nought due to Mentec seeing no profit in the arrangement. > That is also my assumption. It was also my assumption that hobby programs allow students to become capable of supporting commercial systems as well as producing interesting enhancements for and finding bugs in operating systems. As long as the operating system software is still being sold and producing sufficient profit, a hobby program is often a benefit and support to the operating system. Once the profit level becomes too low, starting a hobby program seems no longer useful and perhaps that is how HP and Mentec view a hobby program for the PDP-11 software which Mentec handles. >Needless to say as a DEC hardware collector a simulator is of no >interest to me. > > I am always confused by this viewpoint. Please explain. If you don't really care about the software, then why do you care which software is being used by the hardware? In fact, why is it necessary to run any software at all? I would have expected that the XXDP diagnostics would be more than sufficient to exercise the actual DEC hardware and provide the feeling that the actual DEC hardware is being used. On the other hand, I am quite obviously interested in the functionally of the software and the manner in which the various software components relate to each. As a result, an emulator is often much more useful than the actual DEC hardware. In respect of using E11, about the only real difference that I notice is that the RT-11 programs tend to execute about 100 times as fast on a current 3 GHz Pentium 4 as on a PDP-11/93, including both CPU and I/O, indeed especially disk I/O; the available storage is also likely to be measured in the 1000 times capacity since 500 GigiByte hard disk drives now cost less than the 600 MegaByte Maxtor ESDI XT8760E that I purchased for $ 600 at an end-of-line sale around 10 to 15 years ago. As a result, one of the enhancements that I plan for RT-11 is to allow up to 65536 RT-11 partitions which will allow for hard disk drives up to 2 TeraBytes. Anyone interested? >>Hi All >> I'm a bit confused about this Mentec issue. They bought up the >>rights to the pdp-11 line and even produced some new boards. Now they >>seem to have abandoned the whole thing. I can only find one web site >>that could be theirs but it is very up market corporate image stuff. >>No >> >>mention of pdp anything. >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >First of all, please remember I am ONLY interested in RT-11. And while >I have had contact with and used a bit of RSX-11 and a very extensive >amount of RSTS/E, I was never responsible of a system which ran RSX-11 >or RSTS/E. Which is the primary reason that I never became proficient >enough to maintain either an RSX-11 or a RSTS/E system. On the other >hand, I may now know RT-11 as well as some of the top RT-11 developers >knew RT-11 during the 1980s. > >As for why Mentec no longer actively supports any of the PDP-11 >systems, I venture to guess that it is no longer profitable. > > > >>As I am in the middle of restoring some pdp-11/94's the issue around >>how >>RT11 and RSX could be made available is of much interest. If they have >>not sold the rights and are not pursuing the business perhaps they >>could help us poor pdp preservers. >> >> >> >Mentec has helped the poor PDP-11 preservers. Unfortunately, it is not >obvious since the help is more in not causing those poor PDP-11 >preservers any difficulties as opposed to being proactive by making the >operating systems generally available such as Borland products are at >present. Also an example is the VMS hobby program which Mentec does >not have. > >In addition, as others have mentioned in their replies, it seems very >doubtful that Mentec really did "totally own" the >PDP-11 operating systems. Unfortunately, it seems highly probable that >the terms of the agreement between Mentec and DEC required the parties >to maintain confidentiality since I can't see why those terms have >never been publicly disclosed - unless those terms were so detrimental >to the users that neither party wanted to admit the mistakes in the >lack of a >PDP-11 hobby program in the face of the VMS hobby license program. But >what did happen did, what did not happen did not - the stories and >interpretations that many of us make up about what happened are >probably 90% fiction and are no longer even important. > >BUT, Mentec did make older versions of the operating systems available >for legal non-commercial use under what was at the time a DEC owned >emulator. It certainly seemed questionable at the time and it may be >even more questionable at present, but Mentec has chosen to make no >challenge to the use of those older versions of the operating systems >under the current name of that DEC emulator which has evolved to become >SIMH. In addition, Mentec also seems to be ignoring the legal >requirement for a transfer of any operating system license to the new >owner of any old PDP-11 hardware so long as, at least as far I can >interpret, the new owner is non-commercial. Certainly there have been >numerous discussions on classiccmp (one is going on right now about a >single RL02 system) over PDP-11 use of the RT-11 operating system (i.e. >NOT under SIMH) and I can't remember any recent protests from Mentec in >this regard. > >Any finally, while the RSX-11 and RSTS/E operating systems are much >more tightly controlled and not very easily available, almost 10 years >ago, Megan Gentry, a former RT-11 developer, put a zip file of V05.03 >of >RT-11 up for general download with the explicit permission of the >individuals who had to provide that permission. V05.03 of RT-11 is the >last binary distribution allowed under the DEC emulator and by >inference under SIMH. There is also a CD version (an ISO file) which >contains as many as possible of the RT-11 binary versions as could >reasonably be found for all of V05.03 of RT-11 and prior. Any for >those individuals who are legally licensed to run the latest version of >RT-11, V05.07 released in October of 1998 or just under 9 years ago, >there is also a CD containing the rest of the RT-11 binary >distributions. The latter CD was requested by a university who was >legally licensed to use and already had a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 and >was legally entitled to a backup of all of the RT-11 binary distributions. > >So - I don't really think that there are any "poor pdp preservers" >as far as RT-11 is concerned. In point of fact, I have personally >found ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in the last 5 years in: >(a) Preserving RT-11, >(b) Fixing any bugs in RT-11 >(c) Making any enhancements in RT-11 >Of course, for individuals in the know, most of them already have >sufficiently preserved what they want of RT-11. On the other hand, >even though I have made a number of vital bug fixes to >RT-11 (for problems that crash RT-11) along with other minor problems >as well as some extensive enhancements, I have yet to find anyone who >is even interested in a Y3K for RT-11, let alone someone who would be >interested in participating. > >Of course, Y3K may already have been done, the enhancements that I have >already completed may have been duplicated along with many other >enhancements and the bugs fixed as well and distributed to the users of >RT-11. Perhaps I just don't know that it has all occurred without a >word of it reaching my eyes and ears. > >But, as a result, I have place (a), (b) and (c) into a lower priority >and focused on attempting something even less useful, i.e. confirming >the value of pi(10^18) using a sieve program running under RT-11 with a >view to attempting to determine pi(10^24). When I find that it will >take a million years to finish the calculations for pi(10^24) with >current computers, I may shift back to (a), (b) and (c) if I can't find >something even less useful than knowing the value for pi(10^24). > >On the other hand, if anyone is really interested, drop me a line. If >anyone really knows why Mentec does not have a hobby program for PDP-11 >operating systems, let us know. Just don't complain about RT-11 and >Mentec since nothing that Mentec seems to be doing at present >interferes with "poor pdp preservers" >as far as RT-11 is concerned. In 16 more years, which will be 25 years >after V05.07 of RT-11 was released, I very seriously doubt that Mentec >will care if every hobby user who wants a copy of V05.07 of RT-11 is >using it on real DEC hardware, let alone if there is a running emulator >on what goes for a PC in the year 2023 when I will be 84 years old if I >am still kicking. > >As for commercial sites still running RT-11, if they don't already have >the Y2K compliant V05.07 of RT-11, then I very much doubt that they >will require V05.07 in the year 2023. >And if those commercial sites are managing with the current bugs in >RT-11 9 years after V05.07 was released, well ... > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine >-- >If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has >been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the >semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four >characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > From cmcnabb at vt.edu Mon May 7 07:11:49 2007 From: cmcnabb at vt.edu (Christopher McNabb) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 08:11:49 -0400 Subject: Tons of DEC stuff available in Blacksburg Virginia Message-ID: We've just bought a house, so I will no longer have room for all my DEC Stuff. There is a PDP-11/83, a PDP-11/24, 2 RL02's, a 9 track tape drive, etc. If anyone wants it come and get it, otherwise it will have to be disposed of in early July -- Christopher L McNabb Tel: 540 231 7554 Senior Systems Engineer Email: cmcnabb at vt.edu Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.205622N 80.414595W ARS: N2UX Grid Square: EM97SD From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 7 09:13:44 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 11:13:44 -0300 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem References: Message-ID: <0b4d01c790b2$416a4350$f0fea8c0@alpha> > *never seen one in the wild before, or even on auction sites.....IIRC it > was > largely designed to be Apple ][ compatible..... And there are TWO brazilian clones: TK2000 and TK2000 II :o) You can take a look at them at my page ;o) From wayne.smith at charter.net Mon May 7 09:24:35 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 07:24:35 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? Message-ID: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne Smith [mailto:wayne.smith at charter.net] > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:00 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: Re: value of IBM 5110? > > > This system isn't in Europe, and as much as everyone would > like to believe that old iron should be virtually free, the > reality is that it isn't - at least not on this side of the > pond. The 5110 unit alone will sell for at least $500 if > posted on Ebay - some have gone for much more. If it is an > APL/BASIC unit - something that isn't apparent from the > listing - it will go for over $1000. Well, from the listing it probably is a BASIC only unit, but $600 is still a good price. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 7 09:24:58 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 07:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tons of DEC stuff available in Blacksburg Virginia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87623.34372.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Christopher McNabb wrote: > We've just bought a house, so I will no longer have > room for all my DEC > Stuff. There is a PDP-11/83, a PDP-11/24, 2 RL02's, > a 9 track tape drive, > etc. If anyone wants it come and get it, otherwise > it will have to be > disposed of in early July I would definitely be interested, provided nobody already pounced..., although it really is quite a hike. (I'm in Albany) I can probably get a friend to come along, and turn it into a road trip though. Should all fit into a minivan, right? Thanks! -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 7 09:26:04 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 07:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tons of DEC stuff available in Blacksburg Virginia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4862.27694.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Doh! Sorry, that was not meant to got to the list... -Ian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 09:32:25 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 15:32:25 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> References: <463F02D2.402@philpem.me.uk> <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <463F3879.5090302@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > The 85x docs talk about MFM data though, whereas I don't think that the > 80x docs do. I'm not sure if there's any good technical reason that the > 80x drives can't handle an MFM data stream, though. (I think there might > be some on-board "helper" circuitry for separating FM clock/data bits on > at least some of the 80x flavours - but I think this can be jumpered out > so that the controller does the stream encoding/decoding instead). IIRC, the SA800 provides: /RDDATA: Raw data from the head - one pulse if there's a flux transition /SEPDATA: Separated data - no clock pulses /SEPCLK: Separated clock - no data pulses So you'd just connect RD DATA up to the controller and let it do its own thing. If you have a weird drive that only has SEPDATA and SEPCLK, you AND them together to get the data and clock pulses together (they're active-low remember - 1&1=1, everything else=0). Then just feed the AND gate output into the RDDATA input on the controller. > Aren't hard-sectored 8" floppies available in more than just 32 > sectors/track flavours? Yes, that's why I said "for 32-sector discs". IIRC you can get 8, 16 and 32-sector discs. > It's no big deal if your circuitry is analysing > timing relationships to detect index pulse, but it obviously is if the > circuitry's relying on timing windows as the timing will be different > for a 32-sector disk versus one with n sectors... Yes, and the timing window is variable. Usually you'd have it set to 0.75Tindex (where Tindex = the time between two normal index pulses). I think I've posted the pseudocode before - but basically, the pulse detector looks for two index pulses that came less than Tthreshold after the previous pulse. Set the threshold to 0.75Tindex and you can detect the "half way" pulse, even if it's up to 0.25Tindex late, or if the next sector index pulse is up to 0.25Tindex early. This is one of those things that's easier to explain with a couple of pictures (or a whiteboard)... > (I've only got the SA400 manual here, but the index/sector detection > circuitry uses different timing depending on the media used - I presume > because 5.25" hard sectored media was also available with different > numbers of sectors per track) On the SA800 you can change a few jumpers (more specifically, you cut a track and bridge one of two others) to get 8, 16 or 32 sectors per track. The manual's on Bitsavers if you're interested... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon May 7 09:34:15 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:34:15 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> Allison wrote: > The answer is yes but the drives have to have the propper low level format. > That low level format cannot be done with a PC. It can be done on a Qbus > system with RQDX1/2 controller and XXDP. > This makes sense after looking at the DW.SYS from RT11. It shows 16 sectors per track which is consistent with RQDX1/2. I will have to study the driver some more. Source comments would be nice... > Other drives that have been used were > > RD31 == ST225 > RD32 == ST250 > How would these have been formatted since the RQDX1/2 doesn't know anything about RD31 or RD32? The Pro tech manual describes a formatting function that lets you lay down a low-level format for a given track. Could a drive be formatted in the field using the Pro or did the drive just come pre-formatted? -chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 7 09:34:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 07:34:46 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: >From: Jules Richardson > >Philip Pemberton wrote: >>Strange that the SA800 only provides an index pulse once per revolution - >>I guess it's intended for soft-sector discs. > >I believe that's right; the 801 is the hard-sectored version. Hi No, the difference between the 800 and 801's was the clock separator. It had nothing to do with hard sectored. As I stated before, there was a - option that told if there was an index/sector separator. In any case, this circuit can be bypassed to get the raw index signal. It would be best to bypass any sector/index separator and just use the raw signal. Reading and writing would be easier then. As for the location of the first sector, that could vary, even for hard sectored. Most often, each sector had a header with the sector number. It was quite common to interleave sectors to speed disk activity. In these cases, the order of the sectors need not follow any particular order from the index mark. To my knowledge, the Polymorphic, Heathkit H8/89 and the NorthStar were of this type. The index mark was only used during formatting and as a rotational indicator. This is not always true. My Nicolet splits the 32 hard sectors into two 16 sector marked chunks. Only the first of these two vertual sectors has any header and that is a track indicator value. The rest is just data. Dwight > >The 850 is a double-sided version of the 800, and the 851 is a double-sided >version of the 801. > >The 85x docs talk about MFM data though, whereas I don't think that the 80x >docs do. I'm not sure if there's any good technical reason that the 80x >drives can't handle an MFM data stream, though. (I think there might be >some on-board "helper" circuitry for separating FM clock/data bits on at >least some of the 80x flavours - but I think this can be jumpered out so >that the controller does the stream encoding/decoding instead). > > > Given that there's no >>indexing on the hub like there is on 3.5" drives, the SA800 would probably >>output one index pulse every time an index hole was detected - if you used >>soft-sector discs that would be one pulse per rev, or 32+1 pulses if you >>used 32-sector hard-sector discs. > >Aren't hard-sectored 8" floppies available in more than just 32 >sectors/track flavours? It's no big deal if your circuitry is analysing >timing relationships to detect index pulse, but it obviously is if the >circuitry's relying on timing windows as the timing will be different for a >32-sector disk versus one with n sectors... > >(I've only got the SA400 manual here, but the index/sector detection >circuitry uses different timing depending on the media used - I presume >because 5.25" hard sectored media was also available with different numbers >of sectors per track) I have 32 sectored 8 inch disk. This was the most common but I believe there was a 16 and a 10 sectored 8 inch as well. To my knowledge, the 5-1/4 only came in 10 sectored. This was used by Polymophic and NorthStar, as well as a few others. As for using a 800 or 801 as a MFM, one could do it but the filters where real close to the required frequency edge on the read. There was a - option for this as well. If one can find the documents, there was several capacitors and resistors that one could modify to get the desire frequency responce. I made this modification my self for a friend back in the 80's but that is all I remember. Dwight > >cheers > >Jules > >-- >"What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self >destruct in seven days." > > - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07 From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 09:53:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 07:53:28 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <463F02D2.402@philpem.me.uk>, <463F0DAA.1050100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <463EDAF8.5848.2C0B7CD2@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 6:29, Jules Richardson wrote: > Aren't hard-sectored 8" floppies available in more than just 32 sectors/track > flavours? It's no big deal if your circuitry is analysing timing relationships > to detect index pulse, but it obviously is if the circuitry's relying on > timing windows as the timing will be different for a 32-sector disk versus one > with n sectors... Yes, 8" disks also appear in 8 and 16 sector versions, although the 8- sector ones are fairly uncommon. Many 8" drives that can take HS media do so through a jumper settings on the drive board. I've pushed MFM data through an SA-800 with no problems. I don't keep the 800's around, however, as they're only single-sided and don't seek very fast. ----------------- About putting multiple drives on a single connector--some older drives have removable pullups (usually 150 ohms); later ones have lower-value builtin pullups. In any case, I'd limit the number of drives on a single connector to 4. Two connectors driven by nice beefy 50 ma OC drivers would make most people pretty happy, I'd think. Cheers, Chuck From fernande at internet1.net Mon May 7 10:05:14 2007 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 11:05:14 -0400 Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. In-Reply-To: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <604399.5271.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463F402A.1000907@internet1.net> > Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple > system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most > capability, but the II is more significant. It depends... if you want to use/play with the computer keep a //e, but if it'll me more of a personal pride in the rarity of ones collection that rarely gets turned on, keep a straight II (no suffix). The II, and the II+ are certainly more rare and I would think bring higher dollars on Ebay, therefore enabling you to channel your good fortune into something more inline with your interests..... if your not into rarity. Me? I have a //e setup similar to what I used in school "back in the day" :-) It is setup, and once in a while I'll play a game of Moon Patrol, or simply watch it boot, or make it count to 1 million, and just enjoy the green glow form it's monochromatic monitor :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, MI From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 7 10:20:47 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 10:20:47 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <51ea77730705070820q6ad3ada2nc3f74c0714f5027@mail.gmail.com> On 5/7/07, Wayne Smith wrote: > > Well, from the listing it probably is a BASIC only unit, but $600 is > still a good price. > I'm making deals with him now on it. I want to check it out and see if the floppy drives can read. Anyone have any idea how to "IPL" it or do a read off the disks? -j From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 7 11:03:58 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 09:03:58 -0700 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: At 12:07 PM +0100 5/7/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? You can still buy licenses, and yes, I do know someone to talk to about it. Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec. > 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? I'm honestly not sure who might still be making hardware at this point, although I don't think Mentec is any more. > 3. Why have Mentec removed all mention of PDP-11 products from >their web sites. You'd have to ask them about that one. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 7 11:20:20 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 09:20:20 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? Message-ID: <463F51C4.4030601@bitsavers.org> > Anyone have any idea how to "IPL" it > or do a read off the disks? imagedisk should be able to read them, if you have an 8" drive. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 7 11:19:54 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 17:19:54 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463F51AA.3010606@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/05/2007 15:34, dwight elvey wrote: > I have 32 sectored 8 inch disk. This was the most common but I believe > there was a 16 and a 10 sectored 8 inch as well. > To my knowledge, the 5-1/4 only came in 10 sectored. I've seen 16-sectored 5-1/4" but I believe they were quite rare. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 7 11:43:49 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 11:43:49 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <463F51C4.4030601@bitsavers.org> References: <463F51C4.4030601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730705070943jd68748eu829376f5af4ba2ab@mail.gmail.com> On 5/7/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > Anyone have any idea how to "IPL" it > > or do a read off the disks? > > imagedisk should be able to read them, if you have an 8" > drive. The machine has the drives, I just want to know how to make it read its disks, in order to test the drives. I'm at work now but I'll check bitsavers and google around for some docs. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 7 11:47:02 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 11:47:02 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730705060923s47782833ne062ea036f443aec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705070947t34a08abdo1d81722599644373@mail.gmail.com> On 5/6/07, Christian Corti wrote: > Is that a model 1 (with built in tape drive) or a model 2 (without tape > drive)? Just got a reply from the seller, looks like it has no tape drive :( From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 7 11:44:51 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 11:44:51 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F51AA.3010606@dunnington.plus.com> References: <463F51AA.3010606@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <463F5783.4010601@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/05/2007 15:34, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I have 32 sectored 8 inch disk. This was the most common but I believe >> there was a 16 and a 10 sectored 8 inch as well. >> To my knowledge, the 5-1/4 only came in 10 sectored. > > I've seen 16-sectored 5-1/4" but I believe they were quite rare. The SA400 manual lists SA105 and SA107 media as being hard-sectored and compatible with the drive. It takes some digging through the manual to find any more info, but piecing together clues it would seem that SA105 is 16 sectors/track and SA107 is 10. SA104 was the soft-sectored flavour. cheers Jules -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From cc at corti-net.de Mon May 7 12:18:39 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 19:18:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705070820q6ad3ada2nc3f74c0714f5027@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <51ea77730705070820q6ad3ada2nc3f74c0714f5027@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2007, Jason T wrote: > I'm making deals with him now on it. I want to check it out and see > if the floppy drives can read. Anyone have any idea how to "IPL" it > or do a read off the disks? IPL is easy: turn the machine on. To get a directory listing of a diskette, do the following: BASIC ----- UTIL DIR,D80 (first drive) UTIL DIR,D40 (second drive) APL --- )LIB 11001 (first drive) )LIB 12001 (second drive) Christian From cc at corti-net.de Mon May 7 12:30:29 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 19:30:29 +0200 (CEST) Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2007, Wayne Smith wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Wayne Smith [mailto:wayne.smith at charter.net] >> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:00 PM >> To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' >> Subject: Re: value of IBM 5110? [did never appear on classiccmp] >> This system isn't in Europe, and as much as everyone would >> like to believe that old iron should be virtually free, the >> reality is that it isn't - at least not on this side of the >> pond. And on this side of the pond, you wouldn't find anyone paying this much for this machine. Maybe we are just too realistic in Europe... >> The 5110 unit alone will sell for at least $500 if >> posted on Ebay - some have gone for much more. If it is an Or $10 on a flea market... >> APL/BASIC unit - something that isn't apparent from the >> listing - it will go for over $1000. Taiwan dollars? ;-) To bring it to an end, it appears that the market for those machines is much bigger in the US than in Europe, hence the price differences. Christian From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 7 12:48:20 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:48:20 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <51ea77730705070820q6ad3ada2nc3f74c0714f5027@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <463F6664.3000904@pacbell.net> Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2007, Jason T wrote: >> I'm making deals with him now on it. I want to check it out and see >> if the floppy drives can read. Anyone have any idea how to "IPL" it >> or do a read off the disks? > > IPL is easy: turn the machine on. > To get a directory listing of a diskette, do the following: > BASIC > ----- > UTIL DIR,D80 (first drive) > UTIL DIR,D40 (second drive) > > APL > --- > )LIB 11001 (first drive) > )LIB 12001 (second drive) > > Christian > You should also be sure it is cabled up properly. The disk drives won't work unless the I/O bus is terminated. The printer has the terminator built in, so you should wire them up as CPU->drives->printer. Or you might have on hand a standalone terminator block, in which case you can just have CPU->drives->terminator. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon May 7 13:00:26 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 11:00:26 -0700 Subject: SC/MP LCDS Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> river wrote: I don't know if you saw the SC/MP LCDS (Low Cost Development System) for sale on eBay (Australia) last week, but I bought it. I've been looking for one of these babies for a long time, and to find one for sale near where I live was too good to be true. [snip] I'll let you know how I go. River ----------- Billy: Wish I had known you were looking for this. I tried to find someone interested in the SC/MP a couple of times. Not even a nibble so I put them on the bottom of the boxes of stuff to sell. I've a couple of the small development systems and the thick binder with all the technical stuff. Plus some loose SC/MP boards and documentation. I indexed it about 2 months ago then packed it up for the selling spree I going to start when I retire (later this year). I've learned that most of what I have to sell is common junk with little value and the occasional rarity. I put the SC/MP development systems in the junk category since there was no interest. The hard to find items are going to be easy to move. The rest are going to be a real pain. I've already been giving some of them away or even tossing. Billy From hamren at sdu.se Mon May 7 14:06:00 2007 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 21:06:00 +0200 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705071701.l47H197O000171@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705071701.l47H197O000171@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17983.30872.348565.391591@localhost.localdomain> > From: "dwight elvey" > No, the difference between the 800 and 801's was the clock > separator. It had nothing to do with hard sectored. On page 6 the "SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive // OEM Manual", dated May 1980, states the following differences between the different models: 800-1 Soft Sectored with an FM (single density) data separator. 800-2 Soft Sectored without data separator. 800-4 Mechanics only (No PCB). 801 Hard-sectored with an FM (single density) data separator and sector separator. NOTE To convert a 801 to a 800 move the shorting plug from the 801 position to the 800 position. A 800 cannot be converted to a 801. /Lars Hamr?n From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon May 7 14:26:32 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 12:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2007, C H Dickman wrote: >> Other drives that have been used were >> >> RD31 == ST225 >> RD32 == ST250 >> > How would these have been formatted since the RQDX1/2 doesn't know anything > about RD31 or RD32? The Pro tech manual describes a formatting function that > lets you lay down a low-level format for a given track. Could a drive be > formatted in the field using the Pro or did the drive just come > pre-formatted? Well, when I fiddled with an ST-251 in my Pro350, I wrote my own formatter. The register layout is close enough to the traditional IBM/PC AT type controller that it wasn't particularly hard. I've lost the code, though, so I can't really offer anything beyond moral support. I do, however, have the original PC formatter code that I started from (in TURBO Pascal 3.01), if that's helpful (I would suspect not). -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 14:41:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:41:39 -0700 Subject: SC/MP LCDS In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <463F1E83.3920.2D13591F@cclist.sydex.com> river wrote: > > I don't know if you saw the SC/MP LCDS (Low Cost Development System) for > sale on eBay (Australia) last week, but I bought it. I've been looking for > one of these babies for a long time, and to find one for sale near where I > live was too good to be true. Was anything like this ever produced for the PACE? It might be fun to fool with one again. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon May 7 15:01:41 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 13:01:41 -0700 Subject: Old Subject, Another Twist Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B4@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> For those who remain unconvinced about the importance of ESD: http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199203948 Disk drive heads and media are manufactured using Semiconductor lines, so they have the same problems. Disk drives are worse in fact, since the heads and media are exposed to air during manufacturing. I just saw a study that found head failure to be the number one long term failure. The wear study expected to find bad motor bearings or gasket break down. Instead, MR heads are usually the first item to wear out by a big margin. The study separated crashes from head degradation, so it truly is head wear out. Electronics (PCB related) failures were under .5% of the total. Billy From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 15:30:54 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 21:30:54 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> It's done. $DEITY-knows-how-many hours of effort, and it's *finally* done. Of course, I'm referring to the CPLD that drives the disc reader. All the logic has been bolted together, compiled, synthesized and fitted into a Xilinx XC95288XL-10 CPLD. I haven't run the test suite on it yet, but it passed the timing analysis with a theoretical (emphasis on THEORETICAL) maximum clock rate of 71.429MHz. Meaning it's sure as heck going to run fine at the 32MHz I wanted to run it at, with a >2x safety margin. Which is quite nice, actually. I still need to fiddle with the pinout and lay out the PCB, but once that's done I can try and build up a prototype and have a play with it. At some point I'll need to order a couple of XC95288XL chips from Digikey, the shipping charges from which are going to utterly obliterate my 'buy a new lens for the 400D' budget... Here's the stats, for anyone that actually cares: ----- cpldfit: version J.33 Xilinx Inc. Fitter Report Design Name: floppyrw Date: 5- 7-2007, 9:11PM Device Used: XC95288XL-10-TQ144 Fitting Status: Successful ************************* Mapped Resource Summary ************************** Macrocells Product Terms Function Block Registers Pins Used/Tot Used/Tot Inps Used/Tot Used/Tot Used/Tot 223/288 ( 77%) 1243/1440 ( 86%) 615/864 ( 71%) 146/288 ( 51%) 50 /117 ( 43%) ----- The CPLD code is zipped up at for anyone that wants to take a peek. It's nothing really special, and floppyrw.v is a huge mess, but it should give you some idea how it all works. I've tested everything except the top-level module. You'll need some version of Xilinx ISE (I used WebPack 9.1i) to compile it, and some knowledge of Verilog HDL to modify it. Have fun, -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 16:11:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 22:11:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463EDAF8.5848.2C0B7CD2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 7, 7 07:53:28 am Message-ID: > About putting multiple drives on a single connector--some older > drives have removable pullups (usually 150 ohms); later ones have > lower-value builtin pullups. In any case, I'd limit the number of Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up resistors. -tony From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon May 7 16:33:56 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:33:56 +0100 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463F9B44.6090602@gifford.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > On inspecting the MPF-II's box, I'm guessing it's been sat in a cupboard > since 1985 as a lot of the internal walls have reacted badly with the PVC > cables, some of them have been eaten through. What plastic can I wrap the > cables in to avoid any more damage? Polythene wrap? I received a BBC Micro Teletext Adaptor from a friend, and she'd wrapped the mains lead in a small plastic bag. It was the "crinkly" type of plastic, not polythene, as used for the very small type of bag for shopping (about A5 size). This bag had prevented the cable from sticking to the polystyrene. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 17:16:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 15:16:22 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <463EDAF8.5848.2C0B7CD2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 7, 7 07:53:28 am, Message-ID: <463F42C6.10548.2DA0FCC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 22:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > About putting multiple drives on a single connector--some older > > drives have removable pullups (usually 150 ohms); later ones have > > lower-value builtin pullups. In any case, I'd limit the number of > > Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up > resistors. Inverse thinking again! Yup, about 1-2K typically. Cheers, Chuck "Down is Up" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 7 09:49:46 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:49:46 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives Message-ID: <0JHO0001VEFZJ6MB@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Pro380 disk drives > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:37:58 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >On 07/05/2007 03:06, Charles H. Dickman wrote: >> Can the Pro380 be used with RX33 drives in place of the RX50? The Pro >> technical manual doesn't say anything about the RX33. It also doesn't >> say that there is a way to change the floppy data rate, so I am guessing >> it does not support them. > >I don't think so, but others may know more. RX33 can be used in a pro380, however it's used as a RX50 with same data rate and single sided. The upside is a pair of RX33s will fit and are far more reliable and quieter. >> Can the Pro380 be used with any ST506/ST412 type hard disks or just >> RD50, RD51, and RD52? I have a couple RD32 and some non-DEC drives and >> am curious if any of the could be used with it. How do you format a >> drive for a Pro? I never noticed any support for Professionals in XXDP? >> Was there a utility in P/OS for that purpose? > >I guess you need to format it the way you would for an RQDX1, with XXDP. > I do know that it shares some low-level code with the early RQDXs, and >uses similar sniffers to determine the drive type, so you can't just use >any drive -- it has to look like one of the ones a Pro supports. Other drives work once formatted. Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Mon May 7 10:53:01 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 16:53:01 +0100 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1178553181.14931.10.camel@elric> On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 12:44 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > C > cables, some of them have been eaten through. What plastic can I wrap the > cables in to avoid any more damage? Polythene wrap? New kit seems to have just ordinary polythene bags around the cables. Maybe something like freezer bags would work? Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon May 7 13:08:45 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 19:08:45 +0100 Subject: Mentec Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDE@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well that seems a lot closer to the truth. Please explain < Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec.> Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 07 May 2007 17:04 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: RE: Mentec At 12:07 PM +0100 5/7/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? You can still buy licenses, and yes, I do know someone to talk to about it. Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec. > 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? I'm honestly not sure who might still be making hardware at this point, although I don't think Mentec is any more. > 3. Why have Mentec removed all mention of PDP-11 products from their >web sites. You'd have to ask them about that one. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 7 16:34:36 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 17:34:36 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report Message-ID: <0JHO00JO8X6LTXI5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Floppy disc reader/writer status report > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:11:21 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> About putting multiple drives on a single connector--some older >> drives have removable pullups (usually 150 ohms); later ones have >> lower-value builtin pullups. In any case, I'd limit the number of > >Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up >resistors. > >-tony NO Lower. Some came with 130ohm and a few with 220/330 (130ohm) terminations. Allison From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 7 17:31:22 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 00:31:22 +0200 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> Hi, Rod. Jerome makes some interesting, if strange and faulty assumptions. Such as assuming that since Mentec hasn't complained although people "appear" to have been using and posting about RT-11 on classiccmp list for a long time. First of all, we don't even know if Mentec knows about the classiccmp list, neither if they scan it (which perhaps some people should be happy about). Second, I can't remember that many people actually coming out saying that they are using RT-11 without a license. So I would somewhat ignore Jeromes view on the legality of things. That said, I'll answer some of your questions. "Rod Smallwood" skrev: > > Hi Jerome > > We seem to be converging on our views. The simulator is a simple > issue. I want to see the old systems run and live again. If I had spent > years restoring an old aircraft to flying condition I would not park it > and use MS flight simulator instead! I agree with you. It's fun to actually run the real hardware, and not just play with a simulator. Not the same feel of satisfaction. I still play with an 11/70 here, even though we also have E11. > RT-11, RSX-11M & RSX11-D, and RSTS were all current when I joined DEC in > 1975. The hardware to support them (Mentec excepted) has not been made > for at least ten years. The answer may lie a little deeper. I think what > may lie at the back of it is if they provide it they may be liable for > any damage it does. Licenses do not change laws and the law of the land > will always take precedence. It might be a risk based decision. That is probably one part of it. Another part is that they have paying customers (still) and probably don't think it's a good idea to start giving it all away for free, which means they need to draw up some sort of license that will limit things in a useful way. Doing that costs money, and they probably can't see any profit from it. So why spend that money? > However I'd still like to know what are the answers to the fundimental questions: > > 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? Yes. As someone who have customers who still buy from Mentec I can definitely confirm that they were still selling ten months ago. Can't see a reason why they should have stopped since then. This is RSX and layered products, by the way. > 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? No. I think they stopped manufacturing "real" PDP-11 hardware, and are now pushing for emulators. However, that is a grey zone. We haven't had a real "true" PDP-11 CPU since the 11/20. All the rest are microcoded. Microcode is also software. :-) > 3. Why have Mentec removed all mention of PDP-11 products from > their web sites. That is a really good question, and one which I don't have an answer to. But I'd like to know if someone else have. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 7 17:30:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 17:30:34 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > It's done. > > $DEITY-knows-how-many hours of effort, and it's *finally* done. Heh. Congrats :-) What OS are you going to end up driving this from? (It is on a PCI card isn't it, rather than a USB interface?) Regarding earlier question about bringing some address lines out to the I/O connector... the logical choices I suppose are a 40 pin header or a 50 pin header. 40 doesn't seem like enough though assuming you keep odd pins as ground still; it's only another 3 pins, and won't you need one of those for the write precomp line for 8" drives? 50 would give you an extra 8 pins to play with[1] though. If one of those is reserved for a write precomp line, that still leaves seven unused. Say reserve four for addressing, and the other three for the uses which we haven't thought of yet? ;-) [1] Assuming the ability to have two drives on the same cable as per the PC standard... if you don't do that I suppose it frees up a couple of pins of the 'standard' connector. From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 7 17:35:37 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 00:35:37 +0200 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705071703.l47H1q7u000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705071703.l47H1q7u000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <463FA9B9.9060206@softjar.se> "Zane H. Healy" skrev: > At 12:07 PM +0100 5/7/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? > > You can still buy licenses, and yes, I do know someone to talk to about it. > > Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec. True, and sad. >> 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? > > I'm honestly not sure who might still be making hardware at this > point, although I don't think Mentec is any more. Quickware and Strobe? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 17:48:03 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:48:03 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463FACA3.9000200@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up > resistors. Most of the 3.5" drives I've used don't have any PURs at all. /INDEX (for example) usually sits at 0V until you add a pull-up, then you start to see it toggling. Maybe I've just got a box of rather odd drives... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 7 18:17:55 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 00:17:55 +0100 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem In-Reply-To: <1178553181.14931.10.camel@elric> Message-ID: On 7/5/07 16:53, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 12:44 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: >> C >> cables, some of them have been eaten through. What plastic can I wrap the >> cables in to avoid any more damage? Polythene wrap? > > New kit seems to have just ordinary polythene bags around the cables. > > Maybe something like freezer bags would work? Aah, or small food bags perhaps.....I've got loads of those! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 7 18:42:40 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 16:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <463FA9B9.9060206@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at May 08, 2007 12:35:37 AM Message-ID: <200705072342.l47Nge3W010152@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I'm honestly not sure who might still be making hardware at this > > point, although I don't think Mentec is any more. > > Quickware and Strobe? > > Johnny For Quickware I have no idea, I had to even look Quickware up, as I was drawing a blank till I googled it and read QED. :^) They do still have a very limited webpage with contact information. As for Strobe, they are still around as far as I know. Hmmm, this brings up an interesting question, does anyone have any data on the Quickware QED995 board? I'd like to add some information, or at least a link to the FPGA section of my DEC Emulation site. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 18:43:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 16:43:09 -0700 Subject: The old PVC cable vs. polystyrene box problem In-Reply-To: <1178553181.14931.10.camel@elric> References: , <1178553181.14931.10.camel@elric> Message-ID: <463F571D.23553.2DF06F75@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 16:53, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 12:44 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > > C > > cables, some of them have been eaten through. What plastic can I wrap the > > cables in to avoid any more damage? Polythene wrap? > > New kit seems to have just ordinary polythene bags around the cables. > > Maybe something like freezer bags would work? For lengths "out in the open", how about the spiral (I think they're HDPE) cable protectors? They're used a lot in automotive applications. For parts of cables going through bulkheads, where space is tight, there is heat-shrink wrap tape that might do the job. I've also seen cable protectors that have a "zipper" edge lengthwise, so they can be slipped over a cable and then closed over it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 18:58:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 16:58:20 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463FACA3.9000200@philpem.me.uk> References: , <463FACA3.9000200@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463F5AAC.20029.2DFE56E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 23:48, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up > > resistors. > > Most of the 3.5" drives I've used don't have any PURs at all. /INDEX (for > example) usually sits at 0V until you add a pull-up, then you start to see it > toggling. Yes, but Index is an output, meaning the host has the pullup. Have a gander at one of the input lines, like WGATE. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 7 19:41:45 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 01:41:45 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > What OS are you going to end up driving this from? I dunno. If I have a lapse in sanity I'll write it in Java (which means it'll run veeery slooowly on just about anything), otherwise I'll use it as an excuse to learn wxWidgets (which means it'll run on Windows, Linux, OS X and BSD, which covers about 95% of the market). In any case, I want it to run on Linux as a bare minimum. > (It is on a PCI card > isn't it, rather than a USB interface?) PCI?! PCI?! Why the hell would I do something as monumentally STUPID as that? After all, the PCI-SIG's licence fees are 'just a bit' steep IMO :) My plan is to do a USB version that's small enough to shove into a laptop bag with a wall-wart and a 3.5" drive so that you can handle the "Joe Bloggs has the discs, will let someone image them, but won't let the Royal Mail handle them" type situations quite easily, while also being able to hook up adapter cables to use other drive types (e.g. 8"). ST-506 is coming in Version 2 :) > Regarding earlier question about bringing some address lines out to the > I/O connector... the logical choices I suppose are a 40 pin header or a > 50 pin header. Maybe. IDC headers are pretty cheap. I don't have many in stock ATM though - just a couple of 34-way box headers and a few PC floppy cables. > 40 doesn't seem like enough though assuming you keep odd pins as ground > still; it's only another 3 pins, and won't you need one of those for the > write precomp line for 8" drives? Argh, I'm going to have to read through those Shugart manuals again! Speaking of precompensation, does anyone know anything about the innards of the 'write precompensation' (early/late/normal) stuff that's generally a part of most modern floppy controllers? I'm curious to find out what that actually does, and if I need to do it on my controller. > 50 would give you an extra 8 pins to play with[1] though. If one of > those is reserved for a write precomp line, that still leaves seven > unused. Say reserve four for addressing, and the other three for the > uses which we haven't thought of yet? ;-) You're after sixteen addressable drives then. Ooookay... The plan is to have all four on the I/O (has anyone trademarked the name 'DriveBus'?) connector, then wire just the first two to the PC-FDD connector. If you want to use a single drive, wire it up with a PC cable, then set the software to 'single or double drive mode with PC selects'. Other modes might include '8/16 drives with decoder' or '4 drives with one-hot/one-cold selection'. > [1] Assuming the ability to have two drives on the same cable as per the > PC standard... if you don't do that I suppose it frees up a couple of > pins of the 'standard' connector. I'm keeping that in. I want to be able to hook up a 5.25" FDD and a 3.5" FDD at the same time. Remember - I'm building this thing as a combination analyser/imager (hence the name - Data Analysis and Recovery Toolkit) with the primary goal being to be able to image 'odd' floppy formats that a PC controller just can't touch. There are a few other things I'd like it to be able to do: - Can copy the BBC Elite floppy, copy protection and all (I know someone in Stockport that has a BBC B and a copy of Elite - cloning his master disc before his eyes without removing the protection would be fantastically cool, if only to see the grin on his face) - Can copy Amiga 'Rob Northen Copylock' protected discs, and read out the disc serial number (this protection has been 'uncopiable without a Trace duplicator' for far too long) - Full decode support for Commodore GCR, Apple GCR, PC MFM, PC FM, and whatever other formats I can get hold of formatting specs for. If/when I release the hardware (I might do a small production run if anyone's interested), I might do a "send me a disc and I'll add image and/or decode support" type service. Could be fun. I've got a couple of exams to study for this week, but I've got from Friday night onwards to play with expensive CAD software, corrosive chemicals, hot soldering irons and homebrew hardware. Yay me :) FWIW, by "decode support", I mean "take the raw bitstream and turn it into bytes, then decode those into sectors". I'm not doing filesystem decoding, that can wait until later. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From john at kourafas.com Mon May 7 20:02:40 2007 From: john at kourafas.com (John Kourafas) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 21:02:40 -0400 Subject: Western Digital MFM Controller(s) on AT systems. References: Message-ID: <005f01c7910c$93f46150$cbc8a8c0@jkccng41> I have a WD1006-WAH & WD1003V-MM2 mfm hard drive controllers. I have the WD Products text file from their old BBS (Feb 1989), my question is about the "high speed AT systems" which WD says is 10 to 16Mhz, does this actually mean these cards will not run in higher speed ISA systems like a 386 25mhz? PRODUCTS FOR AT SYSTEMS HARD DISK CONTROLLERS FOR MFM HARD DISK DRIVES - NO FLOPPY SUPPORT WD1006-WAH , feature F001R - Hard disk controller card with an ST506/ST412 interface. It supports 2 MFM drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders, 1:1 interleave. HARD DISK CONTROLLERS FOR MFM HARD DISK DRIVES AND FLOPPY DISK DRIVES WD1003V-MM2, feature F300R - Hard disk controller card with an ST506/ST412 interface. It supports a maximum of 2 MFM drives with up to 16 heads and 2048 cylinders at 2:1 interleave, and 2 floppy disk drives (5-1/4" 360K, 1.2Mb; 3-1/2" 720K, 1.44Mb). The "V" boards can run in high speed AT systems, (10 to 16 megahertz system speed). All I have for pre 16Mhz is an 80186 8 Mhz but it doesn't have ISA slots, some odd-ball convergent technologies bus, I tried these cards in a 486 DX2 80 so that is why I'm asking about the high speed AT systems. -John From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon May 7 20:33:38 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 21:33:38 -0400 Subject: Identify a Zener diode for a Morrow s-100 mother board Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070507211856.02b7ea40@mail.degnanco.net> I am looking to replace a blown Zener diode for a Morrow s-100 mother board called Wuderbuss with Noise Guard 1977 G. Morrow Thinker Toys. Any known schematics? Here is the problem: http://vintagecomputer.net/Morrow/wuderbuss_mb_s-100.jpg ...note the blown Zener Diode at the top of the picture. I am unsure of the cause. Thanks. Bill From rcini at optonline.net Mon May 7 21:26:55 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:26:55 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed Message-ID: All: I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like drinking from a fire hose and I can?t remember it all), basically he is looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that the ?instructions? that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit instructions (or multiples thereof), so he?s looking for someone with that kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I?m not knowledgeable about any of the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that?s a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. If anyone?s willing to have a conversation with this person, please contact me off list and I?ll pass on his contact information. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 21:48:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 19:48:46 -0700 Subject: Western Digital MFM Controller(s) on AT systems. In-Reply-To: <005f01c7910c$93f46150$cbc8a8c0@jkccng41> References: , <005f01c7910c$93f46150$cbc8a8c0@jkccng41> Message-ID: <463F829E.7547.2E9A5CC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 21:02, John Kourafas wrote: > I have a WD1006-WAH & WD1003V-MM2 mfm hard drive controllers. I have the > WD Products text file from their old BBS (Feb 1989), my question is about > the "high speed AT systems" which WD says is 10 to 16Mhz, does this actually > mean these cards will not run in higher speed ISA systems like a 386 25mhz? I believe they're talking about *bus* speeds. In any case, I've used the 1006WAH and 1006SR2 sucessfully on a 100Mhz 486 DX4 system. Aside from a few oddball "times things in a CPU loop" cards, most ISA cards should work in modern (e.g. PIII, P4 CPU) systems. ISA bus timings haven't changed drastically from the old PC-AT days. Heck, I've even found PII ISA buses that are *slower* than the original PC- AT Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 7 22:01:26 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:01:26 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463FE806.3000400@gmail.com> Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island > who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a > commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like > drinking from a fire hose and I can?t remember it all), basically he is > looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that > the ?instructions? that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit > instructions (or multiples thereof), so he?s looking for someone with that > kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I > think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I?m not knowledgeable about any of > the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that?s > a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. > > If anyone?s willing to have a conversation with this person, please > contact me off list and I?ll pass on his contact information. I think the Doctor's best bet might be to get someone to write a direct process emulator on newer hardware. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 7 22:07:06 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 20:07:06 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <17983.30872.348565.391591@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: >From: Lars Hamren > > > > From: "dwight elvey" > > No, the difference between the 800 and 801's was the clock > > separator. It had nothing to do with hard sectored. > >On page 6 the "SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive // OEM Manual", dated >May 1980, states the following differences between the different >models: > > 800-1 Soft Sectored with an FM (single density) data separator. > 800-2 Soft Sectored without data separator. > 800-4 Mechanics only (No PCB). > 801 Hard-sectored with an FM (single density) data separator and > sector separator. > > NOTE > To convert a 801 to a 800 move the shorting plug from the 801 > position to the 800 position. A 800 cannot be converted to a 801. > >/Lars Hamr?n Hi I stand corrected. The 801's had both data and sector separators. I was only from memory. Thanks Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From spc at conman.org Mon May 7 22:13:36 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 23:13:36 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini once stated: > All: > > I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island > who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a > commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like > drinking from a fire hose and I can't remember it all), basically he is > looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that > the "instructions" that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit > instructions (or multiples thereof), so he's looking for someone with that > kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I > think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I'm not knowledgeable about any of > the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that's > a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. > > If anyone's willing to have a conversation with this person, please > contact me off list and I'll pass on his contact information. What an odd request. I would think that you could emulate such a device on just about any CPU and his best bet would be to find anyone that can code assembly (or that can write an emulator for his six-bit CPU). I don't see how a six-bit hardware architecture (if such a beast actually exists) will have a one-to-one mapping to a six-bit biological architecture. Heck, I would expect an 8-bit CPU to be decent for this, as that gives you two additional bits for debugging or tracking of some kind. Heck, it sounds kind of fun (assembly experience: 6809, 8088, some 80386, 68000, MIPS, some VAX, can recognize 8080, Z80 and 6502). -spc (Even wrote my own Forth-like langauge ... ) From ragooman at comcast.net Mon May 7 22:19:16 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:19:16 -0400 Subject: [midatlanticretro] WTD: Morrow Wunderbuss Thinker Toys Motherboard Schematic/docs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070507195454.029d67c8@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070507195454.029d67c8@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <463FEC34.50902@comcast.net> I almost posted a lengthly explanation on the march group list before I noticed you posted the pic on cctech. The power supply in that circuit is a -12V not +12V. The voltage regulator part # on there is a 7912 which outputs -12V. The part that is blown on there is an electrolytic cap, not a zener (note the + sign on each end of the cap). Both of those parts below the 7912 are the same type of part. Caps always dry up and blowout--they don't last forever. That's why it's good to have a Variac when powering equipment that hasn't been on for a long time--a homemade current limiter helps too if no variac is available. But I'm not sure of the value, it can't be very high in value, possibly only 3.3uf or 4.7uf considering the size, this isn't very critical , so long as you keep it in the ballpark. The caps for the 7805 regulator on there beside it are only 2.7uf. I would suggest changing both of them, for sanity's sake--they both might be damaged. The other important issue is to check the traces for damages when you remove the bad parts. They could have burned through creating an open circuit. So you'll have to splice the traces back together if this is the case. Some skinny telephone copper wire always does the trick. And last but not least, is the 7912 voltage regulator. You should check the -12V power before you plug in any cards. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] B. Degnan wrote: > > Herb/Anyone else.. > > I have a 1977 Morrow Wunderbuss "Thinker Toys" S-100 Motherboard with a > blown Zener diode near a 12+V position at the back of the board. Anyone > have a schematic? I checked Herb Johnson's site, there is nothing for > this > board listed. I would like to determine the exact type of diode so I can > replace it. > > What would cause a Zener diode to pop? > > Thanks. > Bill > > _ > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 7 22:23:31 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:23:31 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> References: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <463FED33.9090904@gmail.com> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini once stated: >> All: >> >> I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island >> who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a >> commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like >> drinking from a fire hose and I can't remember it all), basically he is >> looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that >> the "instructions" that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit >> instructions (or multiples thereof), so he's looking for someone with that >> kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I >> think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I'm not knowledgeable about any of >> the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that's >> a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. >> >> If anyone's willing to have a conversation with this person, please >> contact me off list and I'll pass on his contact information. > > What an odd request. I would think that you could emulate such a device > on just about any CPU and his best bet would be to find anyone that can code > assembly (or that can write an emulator for his six-bit CPU). Indeed, I'd be willing to write such an emulator. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 22:45:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 20:45:43 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk>, <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 1:41, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > What OS are you going to end up driving this from? > > I dunno. If I have a lapse in sanity I'll write it in Java (which means it'll > run veeery slooowly on just about anything), otherwise I'll use it as an > excuse to learn wxWidgets (which means it'll run on Windows, Linux, OS X and > BSD, which covers about 95% of the market). > > In any case, I want it to run on Linux as a bare minimum. > > > (It is on a PCI card > > isn't it, rather than a USB interface?) > > PCI?! PCI?! Why the hell would I do something as monumentally STUPID as that? > After all, the PCI-SIG's licence fees are 'just a bit' steep IMO :) > > My plan is to do a USB version that's small enough to shove into a laptop bag > with a wall-wart and a 3.5" drive so that you can handle the "Joe Bloggs has > the discs, will let someone image them, but won't let the Royal Mail handle > them" type situations quite easily, while also being able to hook up adapter > cables to use other drive types (e.g. 8"). ST-506 is coming in Version 2 :) > > > Regarding earlier question about bringing some address lines out to the > > I/O connector... the logical choices I suppose are a 40 pin header or a > > 50 pin header. > > Maybe. IDC headers are pretty cheap. I don't have many in stock ATM though - > just a couple of 34-way box headers and a few PC floppy cables. > > > 40 doesn't seem like enough though assuming you keep odd pins as ground > > still; it's only another 3 pins, and won't you need one of those for the > > write precomp line for 8" drives? I don't think there's anything that can't be handled with a DC-37 connector--and that's with 4 drive selects. You don't need the separated data from 8" drives, so let's look at what signals you do need: DS0 DS1 DS2 DS3 MOTOR ON or HEAD LOAD* SIDE SELECT INDEX TRACK 0 STEP DIRECTION READ DATA (RAW) WRITE DATA WRITE GATE WRITE PROTECTED SECTOR (if you want to use the 8" signal) TG43 *Saying that both HDLD and MTRON are the same signal simplifies accommodating 8" drives and doesn't hurt a thing. 16 signal lines + return = 32 pins. Some NEC 3.5" floppies have some very strange "extra" signals, but they're the only ones I'm aware of. Similarly, some early 8" drives wanted 3-phase stepping signals, but I haven't seen a specimen in the last 20 years. Similarly, there are drives with door locks and auto-ejects that can be ignored. SImilarly, if you've got INDEX, you can derive READY yourself and you probably don't care and don't want to deal with DISK CHANGED signals. There's no point to using the 8" drive on-board FM data separator. Why complicate things? Two DC-37 connectors will allow you to control 8 drives and yet keep the cabling simple. > Speaking of precompensation, does anyone know anything about the innards of > the 'write precompensation' (early/late/normal) stuff that's generally a part > of most modern floppy controllers? I'm curious to find out what that actually > does, and if I need to do it on my controller. Generally write precompensation isn't used in FM mode. However, in MFM, it comes into play on the inner tracks when domain edges get "fuzzier", mostly as a result of the medium. To keep things as distinct as possible, a clever kludge is used to either advance or retard the start of a bit cell depending on current the bit being written and the last two bits just written and the next bit to be written: Here are some common patterns and their precompensation (display this with a monospaced font): Bits just written Current bit Next bit Action ----------------- ----------- -------- ------ X1 1 0 Advance (early) X0 1 1 Retard (late) 00 0 1 Advance 10 0 0 Retard XX X X Nominal timing The amount of precompensation on an 8" floppy is usually about 200 nsec. The logic for this becomes more apparent if you sketch out the bit cells. The usual way that precomp is determined in a controller is to run the data stream through a shift register and use come combinatorial logic to determine what should be done. Typically, the data stream from most floppies is a bit "noisy" (you'll see what I mean from some CW histograms). So you should have the capability of rejecting a pulse that follows too soon after the previous one. Better data separators can even fill in a missing pulse if necessary. Hope this helps! Cheers, Chuck From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon May 7 22:47:57 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:47:57 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> Can the drives be formatted on a VAXstation 2000 and moved to a PRO ? (like you can do from a VS2000 to a PDP-11 (with RQDX3 ?)) -- Curt Roger Ivie wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2007, C H Dickman wrote: >>> Other drives that have been used were >>> >>> RD31 == ST225 >>> RD32 == ST250 >>> >> How would these have been formatted since the RQDX1/2 doesn't know >> anything about RD31 or RD32? The Pro tech manual describes a >> formatting function that lets you lay down a low-level format for a >> given track. Could a drive be formatted in the field using the Pro or >> did the drive just come pre-formatted? > > Well, when I fiddled with an ST-251 in my Pro350, I wrote my own > formatter. The register layout is close enough to the traditional IBM/PC > AT type controller that it wasn't particularly hard. > > I've lost the code, though, so I can't really offer anything beyond > moral support. I do, however, have the original PC formatter code that I > started from (in TURBO Pascal 3.01), if that's helpful (I would suspect > not). From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 7 22:55:59 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:55:59 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463FF4CF.70804@atarimuseum.com> Hi Rich, I don't see why he'd specifically need a vax, with all of the CPU cores available (such as those used in MAME and other emulators) sounds like you could tap one of the CPU core emulation guys to custom tailer a CPU core environment for the guy, of course you'd then need a compiler and other utils customized for the task as well, still doable, but no reason it could'nt be done on a PC under Windows or Linux or even on a MAC under OSX Curt Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island > who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a > commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like > drinking from a fire hose and I can?t remember it all), basically he is > looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that > the ?instructions? that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit > instructions (or multiples thereof), so he?s looking for someone with that > kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I > think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I?m not knowledgeable about any of > the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that?s > a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. > > If anyone?s willing to have a conversation with this person, please > contact me off list and I?ll pass on his contact information. > > Thanks. > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 7 11:35:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 10:35:09 -0600 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island > who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a > commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like > drinking from a fire hose and I can?t remember it all), basically he is > looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that > the ?instructions? that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit > instructions (or multiples thereof), so he?s looking for someone with that > kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I > think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I?m not knowledgeable about any of > the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that?s > a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. Hack Hack Hack ... Thunder Bolts ... It lives ... The PDP-8 I just want to play GOD this week and create LIFE ... .... I don't think it matters much about using 6 bits of a 8 bit byte since right now the software model of *RNA trinary encoded bit patterns maps to 3D atomic structures* is lacking proper simplification. The only man , John von Neumann worked on both problems ... Life & computers. While computers have had only about 60+ years of developement life has been going on for 3 billion years with out a hardware/software change. Life may only have been able to develop a 6 bit code because it follows his cellular automation model. Computer science/Life science has stopped development I think since the early 70's. This is the place to start but it is hard to know just what background the 'Doctor' has with computer and life science. I do know what kind of machine this will be ... the Jurasic Park type super computer as the end result. Since this research is for making money I don't think the finer hardware/software details will be released as pure scientific knowlage. PS. Ethan if you do get the 'codes' for software emulation my guess is to use your 'life' board to sumulate the real life program. From doug at stillhq.com Mon May 7 23:44:35 2007 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 14:44:35 +1000 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705071703.l47H1q7s000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705071703.l47H1q7s000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> "Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec." Cool - RT-11 isn't that big, is it? If it is only a simple O/S, and a couple of utilities, then why don't we clean room it, and produce an open version. Shouldn't be that hard. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 23:58:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 21:58:14 -0700 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <463FA0F6.21134.2F10E4F1@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 10:35, woodelf wrote: > the ?instructions? that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit > instructions (or multiples thereof), so he?s looking for someone with that > kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I > think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I?m not knowledgeable about any of > the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that?s > a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. Before the S/360, 6 bit opcodes/characters reigned surpreme. Just think of all of the big iron with word sizes of 6 bits... Too bad we don't have much of it left. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 00:13:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 01:13:57 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 5/7/07, woodelf wrote: > PS. Ethan if you do get the 'codes' for software emulation > my guess is to use your 'life' board to sumulate the real life program. How did _I_ get dragged into this? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 00:26:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:26:16 -0700 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <463FA0F6.21134.2F10E4F1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca>, <463FA0F6.21134.2F10E4F1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <463FA788.8337.2F2A8C5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 21:58, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Before the S/360, 6 bit opcodes/characters reigned surpreme. Just > think of all of the big iron with word sizes of 6 bits... Dang---I hit "send" too quickly. Make that "big iron with word sizes that are a multiple of 6 bits". --Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue May 8 00:35:31 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:35:31 -0700 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> Message-ID: <46400C23.2060903@mindspring.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > [...snipped...] > > "Rod Smallwood" skrev: > > > [...snipped...] > > However I'd still like to know what are the answers to the > fundimental questions: > > > > 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? > > Yes. As someone who have customers who still buy from Mentec I can > definitely confirm that they were still selling ten months ago. Can't > see a reason why they should have stopped since then. This is RSX and > layered products, by the way. I can understand that Mentec might be making money from ongoing monthly support contracts, but I fail to be convinced that Mentec is making any money from selling *new* PDP-11 software licenses. Do do so would assume the deployment of 'new' currently unlicensed PDP-11 systems, which I would think is highly unlikely at this point. Where would the hardware come from, other that used equipment liquidators selling old systems? The only other application would be running PDP-11 applications on new E11 (or Charon) or SIMH platforms, which to me seems laughable from a business perspective. If I went into *any* vendor at this point and saw they were running their computing environment on PDP-8s/PDP-11s I'd immediately run for the nearest exit. > > > 2. Are they still making PDP-11 hardware? > > No. I think they stopped manufacturing "real" PDP-11 hardware, and are > now pushing for emulators. However, that is a grey zone. We haven't > had a real "true" PDP-11 CPU since the 11/20. All the rest are > microcoded. Microcode is also software. :-) One man's opinion, I guess. > > > 3. Why have Mentec removed all mention of PDP-11 products from > their web sites. > That is a really good question, and one which I don't have an answer > to. But I'd like to know if someone else have. > Johnny www.mentec.com is the corporate site I haven't seen mention of anything PDP-11 related on it for quite some time. OTOH www.mentec-inc.com is the US-based PDP-11 site that up until last year was up and running, and had info on all their RT/RSX/RSTS products. For the last year or so www.mentec-inc.com has been offline and 'under construction' (and still is). All of this is just my opinion, of course. Don North PDP-11/44 owner running 2.11BSD since nuthin' else is legit. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 01:04:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:04:03 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne>, Message-ID: <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2007 at 19:30, Christian Corti wrote: > Taiwan dollars? ;-) > To bring it to an end, it appears that the market for those machines is > much bigger in the US than in Europe, hence the price differences. No, it's the US psyche. You've obviously never seen the US version of "Antiques Roadshow". All sorts of stuff being appraised at insane prices. As in "Zebulon Cowsnuffle was a major artistic force in East Jawbone. As a primitivist, his works are very desirable now. I believe that napking with a catsup stain that you have would bring about $50,000 at auction." Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 7 13:15:26 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:15:26 -0600 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: <463F553D.3010501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <463F6CBE.8050603@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/7/07, woodelf wrote: >> PS. Ethan if you do get the 'codes' for software emulation >> my guess is to use your 'life' board to sumulate the real life program. > > How did _I_ get dragged into this? Sorry. I was sure you posted something with this thread ... I better go check my trash ... > -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 7 13:18:22 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 12:18:22 -0600 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> References: <200705071703.l47H1q7s000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <463F6D6E.3030002@jetnet.ab.ca> Doug Jackson wrote: > > "Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec." > > Cool - RT-11 isn't that big, is it? If it is only a simple O/S, and a > couple of utilities, then why don't we clean room it, and produce an > open version. > Shouldn't be that hard. Let one not forget important software like a editor and a assembler and a linker. Who wants to write a Fortran Complier too. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 8 01:36:37 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 23:36:37 -0700 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <46400C23.2060903@mindspring.com> References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> <46400C23.2060903@mindspring.com> Message-ID: At 10:35 PM -0700 5/7/07, Don North wrote: >I can understand that Mentec might be making money from ongoing >monthly support contracts, but I fail to be convinced that Mentec is >making any money from selling *new* PDP-11 software licenses. Do do >so would assume the deployment of 'new' currently unlicensed PDP-11 >systems, which I would think is highly unlikely at this point. Where >would the hardware come from, other that used equipment liquidators >selling old systems? The only other application would be running >PDP-11 applications on new E11 (or Charon) or SIMH platforms, which >to me seems laughable from a business perspective. I know for a fact there are new installations going on periodically. I also know someone who purchased a new license from them in the last two months. >If I went into *any* vendor at this point and saw they were running >their computing environment on PDP-8s/PDP-11s I'd immediately run >for the nearest exit. Then you don't want to know who I sold a couple PDP-11's to a few years ago. :^) As I and others have mentioned here before there are reasons for this. In some cases it works, so why mess with it. Those are the ones that will typically move to an emulation based solution when the hardware breaks, at least they do if they can't easily obtain replacement hardware. In other cases there are requirements to recertify any new hardware or software. Such certifications can cost in excess of a Million Dollars (yes, US Dollars). Situations such as this are why things such as working RD53's and RA81's command a premium. In other cases the computer is connected via very specialized interfaces to very expensive equipment. This is where companies like Strobe Data and their PCI-to-QBus/Unibus expansions come into play. This likely falls at least partially into the second example, some manufacturing processes specify a certain configuration with zero changes for "X" years. New plants designed to manufacture the same item have to be built exactly the same. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From davidfrkane at gmail.com Tue May 8 03:06:17 2007 From: davidfrkane at gmail.com (David Kane) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:06:17 +1000 Subject: SC/MP LCDS In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C5B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: Wow I never saw an SC/MP message on this list before, well maybe one. I loved the SC/MP from way back when Electronics Australia magazine ran the Mini-SCMP construction articles (which I have collected). I always wanted to build one. I saw one built by a student at my high school, he was showing it off at the school fate. I would be interested in knowing when you start to put things SC/MP related up for auction. David Kane On 5/8/07, Billy Pettit wrote: > > river wrote: > > I don't know if you saw the SC/MP LCDS (Low Cost Development System) for > sale on eBay (Australia) last week, but I bought it. I've been looking for > one of these babies for a long time, and to find one for sale near where I > live was too good to be true. > > [snip] > > I'll let you know how I go. > > River > > ----------- > > Billy: > > Wish I had known you were looking for this. I tried to find someone > interested in the SC/MP a couple of times. Not even a nibble so I put > them > on the bottom of the boxes of stuff to sell. > > I've a couple of the small development systems and the thick binder with > all > the technical stuff. Plus some loose SC/MP boards and documentation. I > indexed it about 2 months ago then packed it up for the selling spree I > going to start when I retire (later this year). > > I've learned that most of what I have to sell is common junk with little > value and the occasional rarity. I put the SC/MP development systems in > the > junk category since there was no interest. The hard to find items are > going > to be easy to move. The rest are going to be a real pain. I've already > been giving some of them away or even tossing. > > Billy > > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 04:12:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 04:12:11 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> What OS are you going to end up driving this from? > > I dunno. If I have a lapse in sanity I'll write it in Java (which means > it'll run veeery slooowly on just about anything) It shouldn't be too bad to be honest - there's going to be a fair bit of "wait for user input" and "wait for device" in there, and Java tends to be reasonable when processing raw data if there's not lots of thread synchronisation and object creation in the way. It might be let down by availability of bit-level operations, but then most languages are... > otherwise I'll use it > as an excuse to learn wxWidgets (which means it'll run on Windows, > Linux, OS X and BSD, which covers about 95% of the market). I was thinking GTK+ :-) But yeah, doesn't matter... a goal of portability's the main thing to my mind. I'm not sure what device access is like under Windows (particularly from Java) - from Linux / Mac it's probably just as simple as opening an I/O stream and reading/writing. >> (It is on a PCI card isn't it, rather than a USB interface?) > > PCI?! PCI?! Why the hell would I do something as monumentally STUPID as > that? After all, the PCI-SIG's licence fees are 'just a bit' steep IMO :) :-) You know I'd assumed that there was some sort of "testing/hobbyist" scenario where you could just do what you wanted without fear of stomping all over commercial cards... > My plan is to do a USB version USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... But seriously, yes an external device is probably more useful than an internal card I think. And an external card can always be mounted internally anyway :-) > that's small enough to shove into a > laptop bag with a wall-wart and a 3.5" drive so that you can handle the > "Joe Bloggs has the discs, will let someone image them, but won't let > the Royal Mail handle them" Very good point. > ST-506 is coming in Version 2 :) Hmmm. I'm not sure if the current implementation's quick enough though... you probably need to be sampling at around 50MHz for ST506. But I assume there are faster chips out there you can use? >> Regarding earlier question about bringing some address lines out to >> the I/O connector... the logical choices I suppose are a 40 pin header >> or a 50 pin header. > > Maybe. IDC headers are pretty cheap. I don't have many in stock ATM > though - just a couple of 34-way box headers and a few PC floppy cables. Scavenging from scrap I/O cards works well. >> 40 doesn't seem like enough though assuming you keep odd pins as >> ground still; it's only another 3 pins, and won't you need one of >> those for the write precomp line for 8" drives? > > Argh, I'm going to have to read through those Shugart manuals again! That's going from hazy memory of discussions on here... I'm rather new to the 8" drive game. I gather there's an interface line which gets toggled on at least some 8" drives and tells the drive to do write precomp; I think this line was replaced with another signal when things moved to 5.25" drives though, so it's not available separately on the standard 34-way header. >> 50 would give you an extra 8 pins to play with[1] though. If one of >> those is reserved for a write precomp line, that still leaves seven >> unused. Say reserve four for addressing, and the other three for the >> uses which we haven't thought of yet? ;-) > > You're after sixteen addressable drives then. Ooookay... :-) Not really, but if you have 7 extra lines to play with it makes sense to set aside a few of them for addressing. Hook up an 8", 5.25" DD, 5.25" HD, 3.5" HD and 3" drive, and you already need three lines for addressing - that's before worrying about other oddball stuff. Better safe than sorry... [Out of interest, I wonder if this gadget will be able to drive one of those floppy tape units? I've got no idea how their protocol works...] >> [1] Assuming the ability to have two drives on the same cable as per >> the PC standard... if you don't do that I suppose it frees up a couple >> of pins of the 'standard' connector. > > I'm keeping that in. I want to be able to hook up a 5.25" FDD and a 3.5" > FDD at the same time. Remember - I'm building this thing as a > combination analyser/imager (hence the name - Data Analysis and Recovery > Toolkit) with the primary goal being to be able to image 'odd' floppy > formats that a PC controller just can't touch. Absolutely... hence the need for having lots of drives connected at once via an addressing scheme. It just feels a bit 'cleaner' to have one drive per cable and have termination set on all drives, somehow. But never mind, as the way you're doing it, it should still work in that configuration anyway :) > - Full decode support for Commodore GCR, Apple GCR, PC MFM, PC FM, and > whatever other formats I can get hold of formatting specs for. I saw some nice documentation about how M2FM worked *somewhere*. I'll shout if I remember where it was now. > If/when I > release the hardware (I might do a small production run if anyone's > interested) I'd have one in preference to a Catweasel board... > FWIW, by "decode support", I mean "take the raw bitstream and turn it > into bytes, then decode those into sectors". I'm not doing filesystem > decoding, that can wait until later. Definitely a separate project! cheers Jules -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 04:30:59 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 04:30:59 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk>, <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46404353.3040300@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't think there's anything that can't be handled with a DC-37 > connector--and that's with 4 drive selects. You don't need the > separated data from 8" drives, so let's look at what signals you do > need: > > DS0 > DS1 > DS2 > DS3 > MOTOR ON or HEAD LOAD* > SIDE SELECT > INDEX > TRACK 0 > STEP > DIRECTION > READ DATA (RAW) > WRITE DATA > WRITE GATE > WRITE PROTECTED > SECTOR (if you want to use the 8" signal) > TG43 > > *Saying that both HDLD and MTRON are the same signal simplifies > accommodating 8" drives and doesn't hurt a thing. Some drives have speed control on one of the pins (300/600 RPM, or 300/360 RPM), LED signal, motorised eject, disk change reset etc. - I suspect that it doesn't hurt to have a few I/O lines set aside on the interface connector for special cases. Not to mention some drives getting power over the 'data' cable, but the less said about those the better :-) > 16 signal lines + return = 32 pins. Some NEC 3.5" floppies have some > very strange "extra" signals, but they're the only ones I'm aware of. > Similarly, some early 8" drives wanted 3-phase stepping signals, but > I haven't seen a specimen in the last 20 years. Similarly, there are > drives with door locks and auto-ejects that can be ignored. I'm not sure that ignoring the less-common cases is a good idea though, simply because *everything* is becoming less common now. I was amazed at how difficult it was to find a 5.25" HD drive recently; they've all but vanished despite being so common in PCs at one time. I expect getting a 5.25" 40T drive is even harder for a lot of people. > There's no point to using the 8" drive on-board FM data separator. > Why complicate things? Two DC-37 connectors will allow you to > control 8 drives and yet keep the cabling simple. Wouldn't you have to have motors running on four drives at once, though? I'm not sure that it matters in practice though as for an archival box I suppose you only have one disk in one of the drives at any one time... > Generally write precompensation isn't used in FM mode. [snip] Now that was interesting stuff... thanks. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 05:32:18 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 05:32:18 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges Message-ID: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> How common were drives which could read these? I suspect the answer is "not very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the media? I've got a couple of such Sony cartridges here dating from 1991; one does call itself a data cartridge (QG-112M) - the other one is a PAL/SECAM 90-minute Video8 tape (P5-90MP). Going from the labels, both have backups from some UNIX system on them - but (helpfully!) no clue as to what that system was or what backup program wrote them. From the huge box of floppies that I found them in though, I suspect that they might be from an Olivetti 3B2 - in which case they're possibly just tar dumps. I'm not sure what my chances are of finding a drive to read them are though (and worse still, such a drive might not be SCSI and so require a proprietary interface card and drivers). The packrat in me wants to try reading them rather than just tossing them out though :-) cheers Jules From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 8 05:44:15 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 11:44:15 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: >> I dunno. If I have a lapse in sanity I'll write it in Java (which >> means it'll run veeery slooowly on just about anything) > > It shouldn't be too bad to be honest - there's going to be a fair bit of > "wait for user input" and "wait for device" in there, and Java tends to > be reasonable when processing raw data if there's not lots of thread > synchronisation and object creation in the way. Have you ever actually used Java on anything less than a 1GHz box? When my laptop steps down to 500MHz, Java apps become intolerably slow. Admittedly it's nice because a lot of the data processing algorithms are already implemented and ready for use, but for some thing's it's just too slow. Not to mention the amount of memory it hogs just for doing something simple like a "hello world" window. > I was thinking GTK+ :-) So compile wxWidgets to use the GTK backend - I get my object-oriented API (I've been spoiled by Swing), you get your cute little GTK widgets. Win-win :) > But yeah, doesn't matter... a goal of > portability's the main thing to my mind. I'm not sure what device access > is like under Windows (particularly from Java) - from Linux / Mac it's > probably just as simple as opening an I/O stream and reading/writing. On Linux you've got LibUSB, which has been ported to Windows too (but works in a slightly different way due to the kernel-mode and driver differences - on Linux it uses usbdevfs, on Windows there's a device driver). I have a sneaking suspicion LibUSB also works on the BSDs... Ah, here we go (from libusb.sourceforge.net): Operating System support: Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Darwin, MacOS X And for LibUSB-win32: Libusb-win32 is a port of the USB library libusb to the Windows operating systems (Win98SE, WinME, Win2k, WinXP). The library allows user space applications to access any USB device on Windows in a generic way without writing any line of kernel driver code. Like I said - I get a single API, everyone else gets cross-platform compatibility. Win-win again. > :-) You know I'd assumed that there was some sort of "testing/hobbyist" > scenario where you could just do what you wanted without fear of > stomping all over commercial cards... It's the same as USB really - you pick a manufacturer ID that isn't in the Linux PCI-ID list, then pray it doesn't conflict. Then there's the bus protocol - for USB I can use a PIC18F4550 which has a built-in USB slave adapter, for PCI I need to cook up the PHY and a VxD/kernel driver for it. Lots of extra effort for very little gain. > USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining in various combinations, give up, go home. I don't like SCSI much, can you tell? > But seriously, yes an external device is probably more useful than an > internal card I think. And an external card can always be mounted > internally anyway :-) Oh yes - in this case you just chop the end off a USB A-B cable, screw the external device down to something, then crimp a connector onto the B end of the cable and plug it into the USB header on the motherboard. External becomes internal, nice and easy. It's much harder to do the reverse, especially with PCI cards. >> that's small enough to shove into a laptop bag with a wall-wart and a >> 3.5" drive so that you can handle the "Joe Bloggs has the discs, will >> let someone image them, but won't let the Royal Mail handle them" > > Very good point. Quick question - does the write protect sensor on floppy drives also lock out the write circuitry, or does the drive depend on the controller not trying to do silly things like writing to protected floppies? >> ST-506 is coming in Version 2 :) > > Hmmm. I'm not sure if the current implementation's quick enough > though... you probably need to be sampling at around 50MHz for ST506. > But I assume there are faster chips out there you can use? I was joking, but ISE reckons the logic's good to 70MHz. That's still nearly a 50% safety margin over 50MHz. That said, I don't have any ST506 type drives, but making a "semi virtual disc" clone for the ST506 interface would be quite neat. > Scavenging from scrap I/O cards works well. Only if you've got scrap I/O cards to scavenge from. > That's going from hazy memory of discussions on here... I'm rather new > to the 8" drive game. I gather there's an interface line which gets > toggled on at least some 8" drives and tells the drive to do write > precomp; I think this line was replaced with another signal when things > moved to 5.25" drives though, so it's not available separately on the > standard 34-way header. You're not as new as I am - I don't even HAVE an 8" drive. I want to get a 5.25" DD (both 40 and 80 track variants) first, though, as mine's a HD and I can't tell how to jumper it for 300RPM. It's a YE Data YD-380B, just on the offchance anyone has a jumper list knocking about... Otherwise I might dismantle the motor board and trace the speed control pin back to its source... > [Out of interest, I wonder if this gadget will be able to drive one of > those floppy tape units? I've got no idea how their protocol works...] Might be able to. It'd be mostly a case of writing software, assuming the data format is fairly standard MFM. > Absolutely... hence the need for having lots of drives connected at once > via an addressing scheme. It just feels a bit 'cleaner' to have one > drive per cable and have termination set on all drives, somehow. But > never mind, as the way you're doing it, it should still work in that > configuration anyway :) So you think it'd be better to have TTL out of the I/O port, then have a set of O/C buffers on the adapter cards, and have a separate O/C buffer set for the PC FDD port? Hmm, the cost just keeps mounting... > I saw some nice documentation about how M2FM worked *somewhere*. I'll > shout if I remember where it was now. It's in the Intel Intellec disc controller manuals (on Bitsavers no less), if this page is accurate: > I'd have one in preference to a Catweasel board... OK, that's one potential sale then. Any more takers? :P >> FWIW, by "decode support", I mean "take the raw bitstream and turn it >> into bytes, then decode those into sectors". I'm not doing filesystem >> decoding, that can wait until later. > > Definitely a separate project! Ho yus. There are far too many weird formats out there to handle them all. Better IMO to just handle bit-level decoding in DART, then write something else to handle splitting out the data from the sector headers, etc. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 05:56:36 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 03:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > > How common were drives which could read these? I > suspect the answer is "not > very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the > media? > I've got a couple of such Sony cartridges here > dating from 1991; one does call > itself a data cartridge (QG-112M) - the other one is > a PAL/SECAM 90-minute > Video8 tape (P5-90MP). Actually, they're pretty common from what I have seen, but then again, I work with lots of systems that use them. Those are Exabyte cartridges - you need to find an Exabyte drive. Pretty common on eBay, expect to pay around $15. The Exabyte drives are SCSI, and are pretty reliable. There are several models, but since we're talking about the older tapes, and since one of them is a re-used video tape, you're looking for an Exabyte 8200 or 8500, I'd say. Those drives are 5 1/4" FH form factor SCSI drives. Both tapes and drives seem pretty reliable, and using video tape for data DOES work, although it's not technically reccomended. Be patient with those old Exabyte drives though, they take a long time to do anything (like open the door, rewind...) and need to be properly connected and terminated to be able to open the door, or disconnected totally (i.e., if you have a external drive with a terminator plugged into the drive, but it's not connected to the computer, it won't open) -Ian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 06:39:58 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:39:58 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4640618E.70304@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/05/2007 11:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > > How common were drives which could read these? I suspect the answer is > "not very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the media? Fairly common, in their day, and they were SCSI (at least all the ones I've come across are). Look for an Exabyte 8200. You weren't supposed to use ordinary video tape, but lots of people did. They're slow but reasonably reliable. The tapes would typically be written with tar or occasionally cpio on a Unix system (and there's software to use them with tar on an Acorn Archimedes running RISC OS), but I know some people used dump/restore. I'm not sure if I still have mine, but I'll look if no-one else volunteers. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 06:37:05 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 06:37:05 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <464060E1.4070803@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Have you ever actually used Java on anything less than a 1GHz box? Yes, constantly for over ten years :-) > When > my laptop steps down to 500MHz, Java apps become intolerably slow. You know, it seems to depend largely on the VM. Sun have lost the plot in the last few years and just kept on piling features in when they should have given up and declared "this is Java" about five years ago. The older VMs scream along very nicely, but I know the modern one I've got on the laptop is an absolute dog :( > Admittedly it's nice because a lot of the data processing algorithms are > already implemented and ready for use, but for some thing's it's just > too slow. Generally it's very good providing you're not trying to create massive Swing applications with it using scads of eye-candy. Unfortunately that's exactly what a lot of people try and do first, and then it gets a bad rep for being slow. > Not to mention the amount of memory it hogs just for doing > something simple like a "hello world" window. I'd suggest there are far better languages for writing "Hello World" in ;-) >> I was thinking GTK+ :-) > > So compile wxWidgets to use the GTK backend - I get my object-oriented > API (I've been spoiled by Swing), you get your cute little GTK widgets. > Win-win :) That works. I know nothing about wxWidgets or GTK+, incidentally, other than being aware that there is a Windows port of the latter :-) If I have to have some form of cross-platform graphical UI it gets done in Java (or a web browser via PHP), if it just needs a simple Linux text-mode UI then it gets done in C, and if it needs to run solely on MS Windows it doesn't get done at all :-) >> USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... > > USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. > SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace > cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace > terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining in > various combinations, give up, go home. > > I don't like SCSI much, can you tell? :-) Oddly enough I've had exactly the opposite experience to you, and it's been USB that's plagued with problems, whilst SCSI has Just Worked*. * Except for whenever I go near a bit of NeXT hardware, where the SCSI bus automagically seems to break if I so much as look at it funny. > External becomes internal, nice and easy. It's much harder to do the > reverse, especially with PCI cards. It's one of the major reasons I don't want a Catweasel, to be honest. > Quick question - does the write protect sensor on floppy drives also > lock out the write circuitry, or does the drive depend on the controller > not trying to do silly things like writing to protected floppies? I suspect that's open to interpretation by the drive manufacturer, to be honest. >>> ST-506 is coming in Version 2 :) >> >> Hmmm. I'm not sure if the current implementation's quick enough >> though... you probably need to be sampling at around 50MHz for ST506. >> But I assume there are faster chips out there you can use? > > I was joking Well don't! :) Seriously, it's a project that could do with being done by someone, and in theory it is just a big, fast floppy drive full 'o bits, so if the interface can be run fast enough (and contain enough buffer memory) it's possible it could be done. >> Scavenging from scrap I/O cards works well. > > Only if you've got scrap I/O cards to scavenge from. More than you can ever possibly need on your doorstep via your local Freecycle list :-) > and I can't tell how to jumper it for 300RPM. It's a YE Data YD-380B, > just on the offchance anyone has a jumper list knocking about... I'll have a look... >> [Out of interest, I wonder if this gadget will be able to drive one of >> those floppy tape units? I've got no idea how their protocol works...] > > Might be able to. It'd be mostly a case of writing software, assuming > the data format is fairly standard MFM. I'm really not sure. I don't know if those sorts of drives just looked like a big floppy disk (and control was done purely via twiddling head select / step / direction), or whether they actually interpreted the data stream from the FDC in order to carry out commands. It's not even as high as low priority (!) but I was just curious... >> Absolutely... hence the need for having lots of drives connected at >> once via an addressing scheme. It just feels a bit 'cleaner' to have >> one drive per cable and have termination set on all drives, somehow. >> But never mind, as the way you're doing it, it should still work in >> that configuration anyway :) > > So you think it'd be better to have TTL out of the I/O port, then have a > set of O/C buffers on the adapter cards, and have a separate O/C buffer > set for the PC FDD port? Hmm, the cost just keeps mounting... Well I figure it's probably two or three 74xx series ICs, so it's not expensive/complex. Certainly cheaper than having to build/buy more than one card. I suppose it depends on typical application, but I suspect any serious archive box is going to have several drives attached. I think the main thing though is to have some form of addressing I/O brought out on the board which can be under software control - then there's at least the scope for doing this kind of thing. (and it sure beats having a separate parallel port bodge or something to provide that :-) >> I saw some nice documentation about how M2FM worked *somewhere*. I'll >> shout if I remember where it was now. > > It's in the Intel Intellec disc controller manuals (on Bitsavers no > less), if this page is accurate: > Yeah, that was probably it actually. We've got quite a bit of Intellec stuff at Bletchley. cheers J. -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 06:48:08 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:48:08 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46406378.9060507@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/05/2007 11:44, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Quick question - does the write protect sensor on floppy drives also > lock out the write circuitry, or does the drive depend on the controller > not trying to do silly things like writing to protected floppies? Normally the write protect does indeed disable the write circuitry, at least on 5.25" drives and all the 8" ones I've come across. >> That's going from hazy memory of discussions on here... I'm rather new >> to the 8" drive game. I gather there's an interface line which gets >> toggled on at least some 8" drives and tells the drive to do write >> precomp; I think this line was replaced with another signal when >> things moved to 5.25" drives though, so it's not available separately >> on the standard 34-way header. More to do with write current rather than precomp. It does exist on early 5.25" drives, on pin 2. > You're not as new as I am - I don't even HAVE an 8" drive. I want to get > a 5.25" DD (both 40 and 80 track variants) first, though, as mine's a HD > and I can't tell how to jumper it for 300RPM. It's a YE Data YD-380B, > just on the offchance anyone has a jumper list knocking about... > Otherwise I might dismantle the motor board and trace the speed control > pin back to its source... Pin 2 on 5.25" HD drives is actually supposed to control the write current (ie it's the density select), but is very often jumpered or even hardwired to change the speed as well. On some really old 5.25" drives, pin 2 was actually TG43 (Track Greater than 43), the same signal as found on 8" drives to control the write current. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 06:44:07 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 06:44:07 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- Jules Richardson > wrote: > >> How common were drives which could read these? I >> suspect the answer is "not >> very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the >> media? > > Actually, they're pretty common from what I have seen, > but then again, I work with lots of systems that use > them. Those are Exabyte cartridges - you need to find > an Exabyte drive. Aha... interesting. I'll give local Freecycle a prod and see if anyone has one nearby that I can borrow. What with Andy's post and another offer off-list I expect I can attempt a read at some point, anyway! > The Exabyte drives are SCSI, and are pretty reliable. That's good to hear. They reminded me of big DAT tapes, and I've had some pretty nasty experiences with DAT in the past :-) > Both tapes and drives seem pretty reliable, and using > video tape for data DOES work, although it's not > technically reccomended. Well as I'm not sure what's even on them - and whatever is on there is probably something very dull - I'm not too fussed if they turn out to be unreadable. I just figured I should make an effort to at least try! cheers J. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 8 07:06:54 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:06:54 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: I have some somewhere (exabyte) I shall go dig in a few days Dave Caroline On 5/8/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > How common were drives which could read these? I suspect the answer is "not > very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the media? > > I've got a couple of such Sony cartridges here dating from 1991; one does call > itself a data cartridge (QG-112M) - the other one is a PAL/SECAM 90-minute > Video8 tape (P5-90MP). > > Going from the labels, both have backups from some UNIX system on them - but > (helpfully!) no clue as to what that system was or what backup program wrote > them. From the huge box of floppies that I found them in though, I suspect > that they might be from an Olivetti 3B2 - in which case they're possibly just > tar dumps. > > I'm not sure what my chances are of finding a drive to read them are though > (and worse still, such a drive might not be SCSI and so require a proprietary > interface card and drivers). The packrat in me wants to try reading them > rather than just tossing them out though :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > > From river at zip.com.au Tue May 8 07:11:50 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:11:50 +1000 Subject: SC/MP LCDS In-Reply-To: <200705081148.l48BkVme015846@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070508121151.2A2B58C19@mailproxy1.pacific.net.au> Hi, Yes, I built one of those Miniscamps also. I think I've always had a soft spot for the SC/MP since that time. I bought some SC/MP chips a few years ago and most of them did not work, but a couple did and I built up a small system with 4K RAM, 4K EPROM, 8255 PPI and an 8251 USART. I wrote a small program to test that it all works, and a "Lazy brown fox" message through the serial port. It worked fine, then I got distracted in expanding an AIM65... then I got a hold of a couple more AIMs, and they were broken so I set about fixing them. I guess time just got away and I got more distracted with a cantencerous Central Data 2650 system. So, the home-built SC/MP system still sits waiting for me to write a debug/monitor for it. However, now I've got the LCDS I've got the vigour back and will fix it and also get back to my home built one. I too am interested in any SC/MP stuff that's for sale. river From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 8 07:23:44 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 07:23:44 -0500 Subject: Mentec References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> Message-ID: <015e01c7916b$b9f83c50$6600a8c0@BILLING> Johnny wrote... > Jerome makes some interesting, if strange and faulty assumptions. > Such as assuming that since Mentec hasn't complained although people > "appear" to have been using and posting about RT-11 on classiccmp list > for a long time. ...and... > So I would somewhat ignore Jeromes view on the legality of things. No, actually, Jerome's points are valid and his views are worth far more than an admonishment to ignore them. I should point out something that you dont seem to be aware of (at least based on your statement above) - a demonstrable pattern of non-enforcement of license does in fact weaken the ability to enforce it. That is why often a company will act to notify, issue a cease & desist, etc. an infringing entity about an infraction of license that they actually in fact don't really care about - because it can then be argued that they didn't enforce it in case xyz, so how can they selectively enforce it in another instance. This is also one of several reasons that some - not all - companies are wary of creating a hobbyist license, because there is some amount of perception that it will put their ability to enforce a license at peril - or at the least possibly cloud the issue. On a separate and unrelated point, I believe Johnny (or someone) questioned whether Mentec is aware of this list, various archives, etc. I can assure you that they are, just as Jerome intoned. Best regards, Jay West From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 09:11:07 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 10:11:07 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 06:44, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > I was thinking GTK+ :-) > > So compile wxWidgets to use the GTK backend - I get my > object-oriented API (I've been spoiled by Swing), you get your cute > little GTK widgets. Win-win :) It seems to me that it'd make more sense to write some sort of UI in plain ANSI C, with a text-based UI. Worry about the GUI part later (and then you can feel free to use whatever whiz-bang graphics you want without annoying people like me, if it's got a good CLI). Possibly just write a library for doing basically everything you want to do with the device, and distribute that with some sort of API reference, which should make writing a clean/portable/changeable UI that much easier. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rivie at ridgenet.net Tue May 8 09:53:26 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 07:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2007, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Can the drives be formatted on a VAXstation 2000 and moved to a PRO ? > (like you can do from a VS2000 to a PDP-11 (with RQDX3 ?)) I doubt it. Folks have been talking about formatting on an RQDX1. The RQDX1 uses a different format than that used by the RQDX2 and the VS2000. You can't format a disk on an RQDX1 and use it in an RQDX2. The RQDX2 was built around a single-chip disk controller, SMC's HDC9224. The same controller was used in the VS2000. The RQDX1 had a hand-crafted disk controller that used a slightly different format. Among other things, an RQDX1 can stuff 18 sectors on a track whereas the RQDX2, VS2000, and PCs for that matter can only do 17. Rumor has it there are also other differences in the format between the RQDX1 and the RQDX2, but I really don't recall what they are. I know nothing about the details of the low-level format used by the Pro 350, but if it's compatible with the RQDX1, it won't be compatible with the RQDX2 and VS2000. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 8 09:55:57 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 07:55:57 -0700 Subject: [midatlanticretro] WTD: Morrow Wunderbuss Thinker Toys Motherboard Schematic/docs In-Reply-To: <463FEC34.50902@comcast.net> Message-ID: >From: Dan > >I almost posted a lengthly explanation on the march group list before I >noticed you posted the pic on cctech. The power supply in that circuit is a >-12V not +12V. The voltage regulator part # on there is a 7912 which >outputs -12V. The part that is blown on there is an electrolytic cap, not a >zener (note the + sign on each end of the cap). Both of those parts below >the 7912 are the same type of part. Hi It may be that the zener is the regulator and not a 7912. Zeners die from old age as well as over rating. Check to see what the current draw is for the circuit that would be powered by one of these shunt type regulators. This can most easily be done with a variable bench supply. Break the connection to the unregulated input( a piece of tape on the input is fine ). After replacing the zener, connect the bench supply. Slowly bring the voltage to the input resistor up until the zener just starts limiting the voltage across the zener. Measure the voltage across the resistor and after powering down, measure the resistance of the resistor ( not always what the color bands say ). Use this to calculate the current. This is the current of the load. Now, measure the unregulated voltage of the S-100 frame. The difference is how much drop you must provide by the resistor. Take that drop and calculate the current that would be through the resistor. Subtract the load current. This is the current that the zener must absorb. A simple power calculation will give you the rating needed. I've seen several times on S-100 boards where the zeners were over powered in a particular s-100 frame because of high unregulated voltages. The resistor really should be selected for each frame the board is palced in. Dwight > >Caps always dry up and blowout--they don't last forever. That's why it's >good to have a Variac when powering equipment that hasn't been on for a >long time--a homemade current limiter helps too if no variac is available. > >But I'm not sure of the value, it can't be very high in value, possibly >only 3.3uf or 4.7uf considering the size, this isn't very critical , so >long as you keep it in the ballpark. The caps for the 7805 regulator on >there beside it are only 2.7uf. I would suggest changing both of them, for >sanity's sake--they both might be damaged. > >The other important issue is to check the traces for damages when you >remove the bad parts. They could have burned through creating an open >circuit. So you'll have to splice the traces back together if this is the >case. Some skinny telephone copper wire always does the trick. And last but >not least, is the 7912 voltage regulator. You should check the -12V power >before you plug in any cards. > > >=Dan > > >[ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] > > > >B. Degnan wrote: >> >>Herb/Anyone else.. >> >>I have a 1977 Morrow Wunderbuss "Thinker Toys" S-100 Motherboard with a >>blown Zener diode near a 12+V position at the back of the board. Anyone >>have a schematic? I checked Herb Johnson's site, there is nothing for this >>board listed. I would like to determine the exact type of diode so I can >>replace it. >> >>What would cause a Zener diode to pop? >> >>Thanks. >>Bill >> >>_ >> _________________________________________________________________ Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You?ll love Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507 From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 8 02:59:48 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 08:59:48 +0100 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022EDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <1178611188.4756.0.camel@gjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 09:03 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 12:07 PM +0100 5/7/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > 1. Are Mentec still selling PDP-11 operating system licenses? > > You can still buy licenses, and yes, I do know someone to talk to about it. > > Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec. I emailed them about getting a licence for RT-11 V5.03 that came with my 11/73, and never got a response. I take this to mean that they either don't care, or don't want to know about it. Gordon From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue May 8 02:32:52 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 09:32:52 +0200 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <463F6D6E.3030002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200705071703.l47H1q7s000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> <463F6D6E.3030002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <464027A4.4080209@iais.fraunhofer.de> woodelf schrieb: > Doug Jackson wrote: >> >> "Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec." >> >> Cool - RT-11 isn't that big, is it? If it is only a simple O/S, and >> a couple of utilities, then why don't we clean room it, and produce >> an open version. > >> Shouldn't be that hard. Considering what it does, in comparison to modern operating systems, it looks quite understandable and at a first glance simple; but you shouldn't underestimate that several very skilled people were working to fit the whole thing to the limited ressources of that machines. One does not want to produce a look alike - you can have things like DCL interpreters for modern systems as well (however, DCL is not relevant for RT-11), but you need much efforts to make the beast then *compatible* with the original. I have long experimented with cloning OS/2 after IBM abandoned it, but a lookalike is worthless, and the OS/2 kernel is full of historical kludges which one needs to reinvent to make it do at least a small leap. > Let one not forget important software like a editor and a assembler > and a linker. Who wants to write a Fortran Complier too. I have meanwhile written a number of compilers, so a macro assembler and FORTRAN itself isn't too hard, compared to semantic monsters like C++, in particular if you take such a nice and symmetric CPU like the PDP-11 into account, for which code generation is real fun. What is hard, though, is to fit the whole stuff into 8, 12, 16kW as it is common for those old machines. The idea to take public DECUS C and write it in C (maybe using lex and yacc) will unfortunately likely lead to large binaries. Also TKB and its kernel infrastructure needs some thinking when it comes to overlays and coroutines; 'ld' from Unix and the Unix process loading/scheduling/execution complex is by magnitudes simpler. -- Dr.-Ing. Holger Veit IT-Management Fraunhofer IAIS Institut f?r Intelligente Analyse- und Informationssysteme Schloss Birlinghoven D-53757 Sankt Augustin e-mail: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tel. +49 2241 14 2448 Fax. +49 2241 14 2342 From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue May 8 05:52:59 2007 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 11:52:59 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Jules asks: >>>> How common were drives which could read these? I suspect the answer is "not very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the media? I've got a couple of such Sony cartridges here dating from 1991; one does call itself a data cartridge (QG-112M) - the other one is a PAL/SECAM 90-minute Video8 tape (P5-90MP). ... <<<< Almost certainly these are written by an Exabyte drive. There are at least 2 densities, but the later drive can read the earlier. Suns can handle these (SCSI) drives nicely. I have several drives (both types), but I'm not sure how soon I could get up to Bletchley. Andy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.5/793 - Release Date: 07/05/2007 14:55 From robert at irrelevant.com Tue May 8 10:25:20 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 16:25:20 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705080825r7b04b626y84bcd46ac85338c4@mail.gmail.com> On 08/05/07, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > You're not as new as I am - I don't even HAVE an 8" drive. I want to get a > 5.25" DD (both 40 and 80 track variants) first, though, as mine's a HD and I > can't tell how to jumper it for 300RPM. It's a YE Data YD-380B, just on the I can donate some ex-BBC micro 40T and 80T drives if you need... (I'm near Manchester..) Will your design cope with the weird disc machinations of the Sirius 1 discs? (aka Victor 9000 I believe, in the States) They were variable speed, and I think variable numbers of sectors per track,. The techref is on bitsavers anyway; pp85+ I've not actually got one, but I have some discs for one somewhere.. Rob From kth at srv.net Tue May 8 10:27:30 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 09:27:30 -0600 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> References: <200705071703.l47H1q7s000179@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46400033.9040102@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <464096E2.5070507@srv.net> Doug Jackson wrote: > > "Don't expect to ever see a Hobbyist License, and don't blame Mentec." > > Cool - RT-11 isn't that big, is it? If it is only a simple O/S, and a > couple of utilities, then why don't we clean room it, and produce an > open version. > > Shouldn't be that hard. Would "fuzzball" be a starting point for this? Heard something about it, but not sure how compatible it is with RT11. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue May 8 11:04:09 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:04:09 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> Roger Ivie wrote: > > Folks have been talking about formatting on an RQDX1. The RQDX1 uses a > different format than that used by the RQDX2 and the VS2000. You can't > format a disk on an RQDX1 and use it in an RQDX2. > Did you mean RQDX3 (instead of RQDX2)? After reading the documentation (RT-11 V5.04 release notes), the Pro is capable of formatting the hard disk itself. RT11 even includes a program for that purpose. It can only format standard drive types of course. DW.SYS (Pro hard disk for RT-11) includes geometries for RD50, RD51, RD52C, RD52Q, RD52A, RD53 and RD31. The handler identifies the drive by determining the number of heads and then when there is a conflict the number of cylinders. The hardware only supports 8 heads (3 select lines). The driver does not support partitions so there is a maximum of 65535 blocks no matter how big the disk. So, it looks like it would be much easier to get a non-standard drive to work with a Pro than with an RQDX3 for example. -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 11:04:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 09:04:43 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 5:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm not sure what my chances are of finding a drive to read them are though > (and worse still, such a drive might not be SCSI and so require a proprietary > interface card and drivers). The packrat in me wants to try reading them > rather than just tossing them out though :-) I've got a few of the Exabyte drives. The late-model cost-reduced drives (top loading) are miserably unreliable. The standard front- loaders were far better constructed. Many shipped in their own boxes with LCD display that would indicate status, number of bytes remaining on the tape, etc. 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. 8mm, like DAT and DLT is an immediate-verify (read after write) technology and isn't bad for the time. There was the same business about confusing 8mm video carts with 8mm data carts as there was with 4 mm DAT audio with 4 mm data. Manufacturers said not to substitute, but a lot of individuals did. All of the 8mm gear that I saw was SCSI. It might be that some manufacturers put together specialized boxes as they did with 4mm (Valitek is one name that comes to mind) to allow for printer-port transfers also. I used to have an ISA card that one hooked up to a VHS recorder to do backups. It was incredibly slow and unreliable. Even in 1991, it was getting to be obvious that the era of tape backup was doomed, with hard disk storage capacities growing like Topsy and tape lagging more an more--although I still use DLT occasionally. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 11:18:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 09:18:16 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <46404353.3040300@yahoo.co.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <46404353.3040300@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46404058.29064.317F781D@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 4:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > Some drives have speed control on one of the pins (300/600 RPM, or 300/360 > RPM), LED signal, motorised eject, disk change reset etc. - I suspect that it > doesn't hurt to have a few I/O lines set aside on the interface connector for > special cases. One of the problems in engineering is knowing when to stop. DC37 connectors are not uncommon, exist in IDC versions (easy attachment). 50-pin D-subs are far less common. IDC headers aren't made for frequent use and are subject to pin breakage and stress on the PCB. Most of the signals you're talking about above are slow signals-- there's no particular need for those extra 5 pins that I mentioned to be paired with a return, so you could have 5 additional programmable pins (1 input, 4 outputs?) if needed. But the basic 32 lines I specified will work with 95%+ of existing drives. But please let's not run power over the cable--I've seen too many toasted drives that resulted from someone getting something wrong. > Wouldn't you have to have motors running on four drives at once, though? I'm > not sure that it matters in practice though as for an archival box I suppose > you only have one disk in one of the drives at any one time... Before IBM came along, there were plenty of systems that ran the 5.25" drive motors at the same time. IBM gave up 2 drive selects with their twist and got to use a feebler PSU on the 5150. Some DTC hard disk/SCSI controllers gave back 4-drive operation by using an "untwisted" cable. I don't see that as a problem. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 11:20:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 12:20:16 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, C H Dickman wrote: > After reading the documentation (RT-11 V5.04 release notes), the Pro is > capable of formatting the hard disk itself. RT11 even includes a program > for that purpose. It can only format standard drive types of course. > > DW.SYS (Pro hard disk for RT-11) includes geometries for RD50, RD51, > RD52C, RD52Q, RD52A, RD53 and RD31... > The hardware only supports 8 heads (3 select > lines). The driver does not support partitions so there is a maximum of > 65535 blocks no matter how big the disk. So does anyone have any docs to check for later versions of RT-11 and supported geometries? I'm specifically thinking of the RD32 (ST-251) of which I have a couple on hand. the drive would support more than 65536 blocks, but I certainly wouldn't be upset if RT-11 gave up at the 32MB mark. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 11:23:08 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4640A3EC.9020907@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > All of the 8mm gear that I saw was SCSI. That's good to hear :) > Even in 1991, it was getting to be obvious that the era of tape > backup was doomed, with hard disk storage capacities growing like > Topsy and tape lagging more an more--although I still use DLT > occasionally. I tend to put stuff on DLT still - unless it's something really large (like a raw archive of some vintage system's hard disk), in which case it gets mirrored to a second hard drive. I always figure there's a lot less to go wrong in a DLT cartridge than there is with a hard disk - but I'm not sure how it all works out in the end given that the physical data surfaces in a hard disk are probably more robust. Maybe the clever thing to do would be to backup twice to two *identical* hard drives, in the hope that if either the logic board or the "mechanical" side went wrong there'd be enough good bits to make up a working unit from which to restore. (Note that I'm talking "home backup" here rather than corporate... I think generally what happens though is that 99.9% of the world's home users don't actually bother backing anything up at all) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 8 11:44:19 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 09:44:19 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges Message-ID: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> > I always figure there's a lot less to go wrong in a DLT cartridge than there > is with a hard disk The flaw in this argument is the time it takes to make another copy, which needs to be done at some point to migrate to newer media. You will only know the DLT has failed when you try to read it again. If you care about the data, it should be kept in a form that is easily replicated and verified, and you should assume that any single copy of that data WILL become corrupted or unreadable over time. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 11:37:16 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 11:37:16 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <46404058.29064.317F781D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <46404353.3040300@yahoo.co.uk> <46404058.29064.317F781D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4640A73C.9050003@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 May 2007 at 4:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Some drives have speed control on one of the pins (300/600 RPM, or 300/360 >> RPM), LED signal, motorised eject, disk change reset etc. - I suspect that it >> doesn't hurt to have a few I/O lines set aside on the interface connector for >> special cases. > > One of the problems in engineering is knowing when to stop. I hear ya :-) > DC37 > connectors are not uncommon, exist in IDC versions (easy attachment). > 50-pin D-subs are far less common. IDC headers aren't made for > frequent use and are subject to pin breakage and stress on the PCB. That one is a good point. I suppose that's up to Phil as to where he's aiming this. Personally I'd use it more as an internal board with lots of drives permanently connected - but I do also like his scenario of being able to just take it on the road with a laptop and a single drive connected. I suppose in the latter situation it needs a case anyway though, and the solution might be to have IDC headers on the board but taken out to the DC37 on the case for plugging into a drive. > Most of the signals you're talking about above are slow signals-- Good point. > there's no particular need for those extra 5 pins that I mentioned to > be paired with a return, so you could have 5 additional programmable > pins (1 input, 4 outputs?) if needed. I know the Manta SCSI-floppy boards that I have are set up like that; I think they have three programmable outputs and then another pin that can be configured as either an input or output (I know the manual states that pin 2 was an input on some drives and an output on others) > But please let's not run power over the cable Heh heh. Definitely agree there! >> Wouldn't you have to have motors running on four drives at once, though? I'm >> not sure that it matters in practice though as for an archival box I suppose >> you only have one disk in one of the drives at any one time... > > Before IBM came along, there were plenty of systems that ran the > 5.25" drive motors at the same time. IBM gave up 2 drive selects > with their twist and got to use a feebler PSU on the 5150. Some DTC > hard disk/SCSI controllers gave back 4-drive operation by using an > "untwisted" cable. I don't see that as a problem. The only issue I have is that this is for an archival box, where it's probably not a good idea to have ancient media spinning any longer than necessary. However: 1) I seem to find that if a disk is going to shed its coating [1] it does so within the first couple of disk revolutions, 2) As above, usage of any such archival device probably doesn't involve typically having more than one disk inserted at a time anyway, so the motors are only on for the length of time needed to access that disk. ... so maybe I'm worrying about nothing. [1] Grey-labeled 5.25" Wabash disks seem to be guaranteed to leave me with a clear disk of plastic and drive heads caked in magnetic coating, regardless of how they've been stored :-( From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 11:50:58 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:50:58 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/05/2007 17:04, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in > specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: > > DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use tapes all that much. > 8mm, like DAT and DLT is an immediate-verify (read after write) > technology and isn't bad for the time. There was the same business > about confusing 8mm video carts with 8mm data carts as there was with > 4 mm DAT audio with 4 mm data. Manufacturers said not to substitute, > but a lot of individuals did. Although I see lots of 8mm video tapes used for data, and relatively few genuine 8mm data tapes, whereas I see lots of DDS data tapes and very few audio DAT tapes. In fact, I seem to remember that you can't use DAT for data, (or was it can't use DDS for audio?) straight off. I stand to be corrected on that, of course :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 11:56:02 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:56:02 +0100 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4640ABA2.7040908@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/05/2007 15:53, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2007, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> Can the drives be formatted on a VAXstation 2000 and moved to a PRO ? >> (like you can do from a VS2000 to a PDP-11 (with RQDX3 ?)) > > I doubt it. > > Folks have been talking about formatting on an RQDX1. The RQDX1 uses a > different format than that used by the RQDX2 and the VS2000. You can't > format a disk on an RQDX1 and use it in an RQDX2. > > The RQDX2 was built around a single-chip disk controller, SMC's HDC9224. > The same controller was used in the VS2000. The RQDX1 had a hand-crafted > disk controller that used a slightly different format. Among other > things, an RQDX1 can stuff 18 sectors on a track whereas the RQDX2, > VS2000, and PCs for that matter can only do 17. That's incorrect; I suspect you're thinking of the RQDX3. The RQDX2 is just a modified RQDX1, and it definitely uses the same controller. They both put 18 sectors per track, and use the same format. You can take a disk formatted on an RQDX1 and connect it to an RQDX2, though in some cases the RQDX2 will alter some values on the disk and then it won't be recognised properly if you move it back to the RQDX1 (depending on the level of firmware on the two controllers). The RQDX3 definitely *is* different, and you have to reformat hard drives for that (and AFAIR *that's* the same format as VS2000). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 12:11:03 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 10:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > > I always figure there's a lot less to go wrong in > a DLT cartridge than there > > is with a hard disk > > The flaw in this argument is the time it takes to > make another copy, which needs > to be done at some point to migrate to newer media. > > You will only know the DLT has failed when you try > to read it again. DLT is great, I use it a lot, and we also use it at work. Very reliable from what I've seen, only time you run into issues is with the drive itself, and really, really worn out tapes. If possible, verify backups on another tape drive, or at least verify them - I had one tape drive that would seem to write just fine, and never report any errors. But the tapes wouldn't read back! A backup you can't read is, well, not backed up. Then again, we don't use DLT as an archive - just for daily backups. I have no idea how readable this DLTTape IV cartridge will be in 20 years. Burning DVD or CD's is nice and "archival" since you can't overwrite them, but beware that some cheap media isn't really good for more than a few years. Of course, we've had discussions about media, longevity and how critical it is to make backups many times before... So backup often, backup in different ways, verify backups and most importantly, actually backup! And if you need to be sure the data will be around for years to come, you need to keep it live - keep it on newer media, newer hard drives, whatever. If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... -Ian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 12:02:45 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:02:45 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> References: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4640AD35.2070104@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > I always figure there's a lot less to go wrong in a DLT cartridge > than there > > is with a hard disk > > The flaw in this argument is the time it takes to make another copy, > which needs to be done at some point to migrate to newer media. I'm not sure that it matters though, not while the hardware to read whatever media is being used still survives in healthy numbers. With any type of media there will come a point where for all intents and purposes it's obsolete, but migration should happen before that point's reached. DLT is pretty quick in my experience for the sorts of data sizes typically found on home machines. Different matter entirely (generally) in the corporate world, of course. > You will only know the DLT has failed when you try to read it again. Surely that's true of any backup media? (Well, the exception being backup media where you *know* it's broken just by looking at it!). From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 8 12:14:55 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:14:55 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70705080825r7b04b626y84bcd46ac85338c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> <2f806cd70705080825r7b04b626y84bcd46ac85338c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4640B00F.2060002@philpem.me.uk> Rob wrote: > I can donate some ex-BBC micro 40T and 80T drives if you need... (I'm > near Manchester..) I'm near Leeds (the one in Yorkshire, not the one in Kent). I've got an 80T drive already - all I really need is a 40T to complete the set. And that's just because 40T drives have a larger head - the whole "40T reads 40T discs better than an 80T unless they've been formatted/written in an 80T" thing. I've just done Dave Dunfield's 300RPM hack on my YE-Data drive (after some multimeter probing) and it seems to be working. I still need to fit it into a PC and see if it can read a BBC floppy, but you can certainly hear the difference in speed (and see it in the index pulse delay on a scope). > Will your design cope with the weird disc machinations of the Sirius 1 > discs? (aka Victor 9000 I believe, in the States) They were variable > speed, and I think variable numbers of sectors per track,. The > techref is on bitsavers anyway; pp85+ It should do. You'd just need to change the read clock rate as the data rate slowed down, assuming you were using a standard 300 or 360RPM drive. The same goes for the oddball Amiga (IIRC) drives that change speed depending on head location - you just need to slow down the read clock so that the slower tracks don't overflow the track timing counter. I'm going to try and add some logic that clips the timing counter at 0x7F if it tries to overflow - that should make it a little easier to find out if the read rate was too slow. Equally, lots of low values mean you've probably got the read rate too high. AIUI, the Catweasel doesn't do this.. :) > I've not actually got one, but I have some discs for one somewhere.. I'd want to get a couple of 'blank' discs formatted on the machine to play with before reading out the contents of the discs. That way the algorithms and timing can be perfected without risking ruining irreplaceable media (the 'binder absorbing moisture and losing grip' issue and so forth). -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 12:16:28 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 10:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Although I see lots of 8mm video tapes used for > data, and relatively few > genuine 8mm data tapes, whereas I see lots of DDS > data tapes and very > few audio DAT tapes. In fact, I seem to remember > that you can't use DAT > for data, (or was it can't use DDS for audio?) > straight off. I stand to > be corrected on that, of course :-) Yeah, I can't ever remember seeing 4mm audio DAT tapes used for data either. I was under the impression that they would stretch or something. It could also be that since the audio DAT format didn't really take off at all in the consumer field, that the data tapes would have been more available. I routinely use video 8mm tape with the Exabyte 8200 drives, because I can't find the 8mm data tapes locally - but I can buy video cartridges at the grocery store (and they're frequently on sale!). I've never had a problem with video tape in those drives. -Ian From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 8 12:32:30 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:32:30 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mr Ian Primus" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 1:11 PM Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges > > DLT is great, I use it a lot, and we also use it at > work. Very reliable from what I've seen, only time you > run into issues is with the drive itself, and really, > really worn out tapes. If possible, verify backups on > another tape drive, or at least verify them - I had > one tape drive that would seem to write just fine, and > never report any errors. But the tapes wouldn't read > back! A backup you can't read is, well, not backed up. > > Then again, we don't use DLT as an archive - just for > daily backups. I have no idea how readable this > DLTTape IV cartridge will be in 20 years. > > Burning DVD or CD's is nice and "archival" since you > can't overwrite them, but beware that some cheap media > isn't really good for more than a few years. Of > course, we've had discussions about media, longevity > and how critical it is to make backups many times > before... So backup often, backup in different ways, > verify backups and most importantly, actually backup! > And if you need to be sure the data will be around for > years to come, you need to keep it live - keep it on > newer media, newer hard drives, whatever. > > If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it > into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and > knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read > though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 > baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... > > -Ian MO media seems to be made to last a long time, plus it has a hard outer case to protect it (unlike DVD or CD recordable). Honestly how much of the GBs of files on your hard drive is user generated and irreplaceable and how much is just OS/App bloat along with internet downloads? TZ From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 12:39:48 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:39:48 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> References: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200705081339.48701.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 12:44, Al Kossow wrote: > > I always figure there's a lot less to go wrong in a DLT cartridge > > than there is with a hard disk > > The flaw in this argument is the time it takes to make another copy, > which needs to be done at some point to migrate to newer media. > > You will only know the DLT has failed when you try to read it again. > > If you care about the data, it should be kept in a form that is > easily replicated and verified, and you should assume that any single > copy of that data WILL become corrupted or unreadable over time. I mostly agree here... but at some level of data storage, tape is much more economical to use than hard disk. Up until this year (that is to say, through December 31 or so of last year ;) we have used DLT media for our archival storage system here at work, starting in about '96. Keeping two copies of the data is really essential, but even with the 50+TB of content that we had in the system when we started migrating to our new one (from DLT-IV in a DLT7000 drive to LTO2 tape), we had very little data ever lost, and I don't think any data that got lost could be credited to the tapes - mostly just due to bugs, power failures, etc with our HSM system. But again, we did have bad tapes on occasion (hint: avoid Imation tapes) but they were few enough in number that we never had a big enough problem to lose data on two tapes that had the same data. Still it wasn't too bad, IMO, as some of our tapes had over 1000 tape-mounts, with no problems at all. So, I guess my advice if you want to use DLT tape (or newer, LTO stuff which is starting to trickle down) is to make sure the tapes are in a good, climate controlled environment, make sure you have 2 copies of the data, make sure you clean and test the drives regularly, occasionally read the tapes to make sure your data is still there, so that you can regenerate a 2nd good copy before you have 2 bad copies. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Tue May 8 12:45:12 2007 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 10:45:12 -0700 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet Message-ID: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Hi, I am looking for a datasheet for the N8202N or equivalent. It would have been described in "Digital 8000 series TTL/MSl". It was apparently manufactured by Signetics and equivalents seem to have been available from Motorola and others. I have the pinout for the device. What I'm looking for is whether the clock is edge or level sensitive, which edge or level, and maybe something about setup and hold times, etc. (This is to help design replacements for some hard-to-find old DEC gear.) Thanks! Vince From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 8 12:48:27 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 13:48:27 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it > into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and > knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read > though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 > baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 12:48:48 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:48:48 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640AD35.2070104@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4640A8E3.1000003@bitsavers.org> <4640AD35.2070104@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > DLT is pretty quick in my experience for the sorts of data sizes typically > found on home machines. Different matter entirely (generally) in the corporate > world, of course. Until we upgraded to Ultrium tapes (super-super DLT at about 200GB/cart for the ones we use), we used to blow two copies of our telescope data to SDLT on a continuous basis... the primary data from the main part of the telescope went on both tapes, and raw waveform data went on only one tape. We filled about 175 tapes per year at about 140GB (before compression) per tape (~ 75-80GB/day) for an aggregate total above 24TB per year (rough estimates from memory). That's for the old telescope. The new one isn't finished yet, but is much larger. If you recall the old saw about a station wagon full of magtapes (or a 747 full of CDs), I am able to talk about the bandwidth of an LC-130 with a load of SDLTs from personal experience. ;-) -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 12:54:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:54:44 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Yeah, I can't ever remember seeing 4mm audio DAT tapes > used for data either. I was under the impression that > they would stretch or something. It could also be that > since the audio DAT format didn't really take off at > all in the consumer field, that the data tapes would > have been more available. I thought the dots on the bottom of the carts would cause audio tapes to be kicked out of data drives. Is that not so? I _think_ you could use data tapes in an audio DAT recorder/player, but I only ever saw one of those, so I can't say for certain. The DAT tapes I have (going back to 60meter DDS-1) all have this media recognition system that the drives are supposed to respect, or so I thought. Did I think wrong? Now that I have a tarabyte at home (1 trillion bytes in box small enough to palm), I should set up an external SCSI box and check my backup tapes from a few years back. I have CD backups from that era as well (and copies of copies of it all), so I'm not worried about one (?!?) bad tape ruining my day, but I should take advantage of the equipment on hand to see what reads and migrate the contents to newer media. -ethan -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:01:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 14:01:13 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Teo Zenios wrote: > Honestly how much of the GBs of files on your hard drive is user generated > and irreplaceable and how much is just OS/App bloat along with internet > downloads? Part of my gigs and gigs is digital photographs going back to 1996 of places and buildings in Antarctica that aren't there any more. I would consider that irreplaceable. I do have multiple copies on multiple (types of) media. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:04:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 14:04:37 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) And a lot of chad. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 8 12:59:02 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200705081808.OAA04348@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... > USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. > SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace > cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace > terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining > in various combinations, give up, go home. I too have almost exactly the opposite experience. SCSI seems ridiculously robust - I've discovered that SCSI buses, working for months, were triple-terminated, and I even saw one mostly work once that was quadruple-terminated. But USB has been flaky and an incompatibility nightmare. (The latter being exactly what hardware makers want, of course, because it sells *new* hardware.) And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more backwards-compatible. USB is quite recent. SCSI goes back to the '80s - and, what's more, it's *compatible* all the way back to the '80s: I can take a disk that was sold new with a Sun-2 and put it on my Athlon and have it Just Work, and, conversely, I can take a brand new off-the-shelf SCSI disk and put it on my Sun-2 and have it Just Work (well, except that I don't think I *have* a Sun-2). (Sure, it'll stop down performance, but it'll work.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue May 8 13:09:45 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 20:09:45 +0200 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F994@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> The 8200/01/02/03 are buffer registers/arrays of 10 clocked "D" flipflops. I have a Signetics integrated circuits 1978 data handbook, which has them described. I will scan tomorrow (but there might be problems with the scanner). For now, here is some data from the handbook. The 8200/01/02/03 MSI Buffer Registers are arrays of ten clocked "D" flipflops especially suited for parallel-in parallel-out register applications. They are also suitable for general purpose applications as parallel-in serial-out, serial-in parallel-out registers. The flipflops are arranged as dual 5 arrays (8200 and 8201) and single 10 arrays with reset (8202 and 8203). The true output of each bit is made available to the user. The 8200 and 8201 feature true "D" inputs. The logic state presented at these "D" inputs will appear at the Q outputs after a negative transistion of the clock. The 8203 and 8204 feature complementing "D" inputs ("D\"). The logic state presented at these "D\" inputs will invert and appear at the Q outputs after a negative going transisition of the clock. This complementing input feature ("D\") permits the use of standard AND-OR-INVERT gates to achieve the AND-OR function without additional gate delays. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Vincent Slyngstad Verzonden: di 08-05-2007 19:45 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Wanted: N8202N datasheet Hi, I am looking for a datasheet for the N8202N or equivalent. It would have been described in "Digital 8000 series TTL/MSl". It was apparently manufactured by Signetics and equivalents seem to have been available from Motorola and others. I have the pinout for the device. What I'm looking for is whether the clock is edge or level sensitive, which edge or level, and maybe something about setup and hold times, etc. (This is to help design replacements for some hard-to-find old DEC gear.) Thanks! Vince This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 13:10:16 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 11:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <883197.78967.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I thought the dots on the bottom of the carts would > cause audio tapes > to be kicked out of data drives. Is that not so? I > _think_ you could > use data tapes in an audio DAT recorder/player, but > I only ever saw > one of those, so I can't say for certain. I don't have any audio DAT tapes, so I can't say for certain, but I do have an audio DAT deck - it works just fine with the computer data tapes. Never tried it the other way around. I think the dots are just to differentiate between DDS1, 2 and 3. I remember once I tried to modify a DDS2 cart to become a DDS3, to see what would happen. It didn't work. (gee, surprise, surprise)... -Ian From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 8 13:09:25 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 14:09:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <015e01c7916b$b9f83c50$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> <015e01c7916b$b9f83c50$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200705081814.OAA04413@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] - a demonstrable pattern of non-enforcement of license does in > fact weaken the ability to enforce it. That is why often a company > will act to notify, issue a cease & desist, etc. an infringing entity > about an infraction of license that they actually in fact don't > really care about This is also part of the reason why it's often worth asking, because if they don't care about your case they may well give you a license for "nothing" - doing so does not produce a weakening of their ability to slap down infringement they *do* care about. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:23:17 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 14:23:17 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Honestly how much of the GBs of files on your hard drive is user >> generated and irreplaceable and how much is just OS/App bloat along >> with internet downloads? > > Part of my gigs and gigs is digital photographs going back to 1996 of > places and buildings in Antarctica that aren't there any more. I > would consider that irreplaceable. I do have multiple copies on > multiple (types of) media. Indeed, I have a 2TB array here which is about 2/3 full, and contains no application, game or OS binary code at all. There's some source code in there and a couple of FTP mirrors, but most of it is data of various kinds. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:27:28 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 14:27:28 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4640C110.8080906@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/8/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) > > And a lot of chad. I'd like to see a pile of chad that big. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 13:21:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 13:21:46 -0500 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4640BFBA.1060600@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it >> into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and >> knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read >> though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 >> baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... > > 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) Bah... change the shapes of the holes to represent different patterns... you could easily quadruple storage capacity! :-) From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:36:29 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:36:29 +0100 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet In-Reply-To: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Hi, > > I am looking for a datasheet for the N8202N or equivalent. > It would have been described in "Digital 8000 series TTL/MSl". > It was apparently manufactured by Signetics and equivalents > seem to have been available from Motorola and others. > > I have the pinout for the device. What I'm looking for is > whether the clock is edge or level sensitive, which edge or > level, and maybe something about setup and hold times, etc. > > (This is to help design replacements for some hard-to-find > old DEC gear.) > > Thanks! > > Vince > > quick and dirty pics of the Signetics databook www.archivist.info/computers/8202.html Dave Caroline From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 13:47:06 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 11:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705081808.OAA04348@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> But USB has been > flaky and an > incompatibility nightmare. (The latter being > exactly what hardware > makers want, of course, because it sells *new* > hardware.) Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, and it's not really much of a Bus either. I tried using external USB 2.0 hard drives on a Macintosh once, but every time I touched grounded metal (the case, power strip, keyboard frame) in the vicinity, all the USB drives unmounted. > And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more > backwards-compatible. Yes, and more reliable too. I once used one of those ESDI->SCSI interface boards to connect an ESDI hard drive to my Macintosh G4. It worked. And ever used a really recent PC clone? They have done away with almost all I/O. No RS232C, no parallel, no keyboard or mouse ports, it's all USB. I had to set one up as a server, and wasted a half a day trying to get a modem working for the fax dial-in. We couldn't use the nice external modem because it was RS232C. I tried a USB->RS232 converter but could never get the firmware to load properly under Linux. The crappy internal WinModem wouldn't work under Linux. The machine has no ISA slots, so no nice hardware internal modem. Can't find a hardware PCI modem. One of the guys bought some commercial Linux WinModem driver, and it almost worked, but was really unreliable. We kept the old fax server. A Pentium 100. -Ian From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue May 8 12:45:45 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:45:45 +0100 Subject: SC/MP LCDS In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 May 2007 18:06:17 +1000." Message-ID: <200705081745.SAA29190@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, David Kane said: > Wow I never saw an SC/MP message on this list before, well maybe one. I > loved the SC/MP from way back when Electronics Australia magazine ran the > Mini-SCMP construction articles (which I have collected). > > I always wanted to build one. I saw one built by a student at my high > school, he was showing it off at the school fate. I still have my Science of Cambridge (Sinclair) Mk14 and it still works, just plugged it in to see. I've been looking to see if I can find the remains of my previous SC/MP system which used a board and eprom from a local (Merseyside) firm - Kemitron ringa a bell for the name. Found some SC/MP programming docs which is a start. I suppose I should attempt to finish my emulator, written in Forth... Nice to see the SC/MP getting a mention. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 14:23:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:23:35 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk>, <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46406BC7.13057.32292308@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 17:50, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Although I see lots of 8mm video tapes used for data, and relatively few > genuine 8mm data tapes, whereas I see lots of DDS data tapes and very > few audio DAT tapes. In fact, I seem to remember that you can't use DAT > for data, (or was it can't use DDS for audio?) straight off. I stand to > be corrected on that, of course :-) I should have put Pereos 2.5 mm media after QIC. I'll wager that audio cassette is more reliable. I think there's an explanation for that. DDS tapes typically have an "ID Burst" recorded right at BOT, which is supposed to tell the drive what kind of tape it is. Some older 4mm drives could get by without the burst, but later ones required it (i.e. wouldn't load the tape). Stick a new DDS tape into your DAT drive and you can usually hear the (caution: very loud) burst--at least I can on my Sony DAT. The other reason is that RIAA fought DAT in the USA tooth and nail to prevent importation of DAT equipment with the result that DAT was fairly rare in the USA. It was much easier to find DDS media than DAT media. I've had decent experience with MO media, but miserable experience with the equipment. In particular, the 4.3G Pinnacle Apex drives would quit functioning for no apparent reason. At one point, Pinnacle had a swapout policy that they would give you a refurb drive in exchange for your bad drive and $300. I remember calling them to arrange the swap and being told that they had an 8 week backlog of bad drives. I borrowed a drive and copied my MO carts to hard disk and recycled the Apex drive. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 8 14:24:11 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 12:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <46406378.9060507@dunnington.plus.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> <46406378.9060507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20070508122133.I26555@shell.lmi.net> > Quick question - does the write protect sensor on floppy drives also > lock out the write circuitry, or does the drive depend on the controller > not trying to do silly things like writing to protected floppies? The write protect circuit does, indeed, block writing. However, there can be exceptions in some of the weirder systems. For example, the Apple ][ relies on the controller, not the drive. From rivie at ridgenet.net Tue May 8 14:24:21 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 12:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2007, C H Dickman wrote: > > Roger Ivie wrote: >> >> Folks have been talking about formatting on an RQDX1. The RQDX1 uses a >> different format than that used by the RQDX2 and the VS2000. You can't >> format a disk on an RQDX1 and use it in an RQDX2. >> > Did you mean RQDX3 (instead of RQDX2)? Indeed, I did. I realized that just after punching SEND. The RQDX2 is pretty similar to the RQDX1. The RQDX3 and VS2000 formats are compatible. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 14:26:48 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 16:26:48 -0300 Subject: 8mm data cartridges References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com><804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02de01c791a7$12d51970$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Now that I have a tarabyte at home (1 trillion bytes in box small > enough to palm), I should set up an external SCSI box and check my > backup tapes from a few years back. I have CD backups from that era > as well (and copies of copies of it all), so I'm not worried about one > (?!?) bad tape ruining my day, but I should take advantage of the > equipment on hand to see what reads and migrate the contents to newer > media. This is something that worries me a lot! I have lots and lots of irreplaceable content and don't want to see it vanish. What can I TRUST today for some two terabytes of data? Please, cheap options, I still cannot afford a DLT :o) From mtapley at swri.edu Tue May 8 13:01:51 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 13:01:51 -0500 Subject: FPGA CPU's (was: Re: wonderful assembly language book) In-Reply-To: <200705061702.l46H1e4D078554@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705061702.l46H1e4D078554@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:02 -0500 5/6/07, Pat wrote: > > Au contraire. "Architecture" these days is whatever you want it to be > > cooked into an FPGA. .... FPGA designs are > > *very* popular for custom architectures these days. > >Sure, but no one (in their right mind) builds a general purpose CPU out >of them. Well, unless it's a research or "toy" project, a prototype >design, or something very unusual and high end[1], but even in that case >it's still not making a general purpose CPU out of it. Although I tend to agree with Pat about the "right mind" part of it, we routinely do this for spacecraft avionics. Both simple processors, like 8085, and more complex ones like SPARC architecture are implemented in FPGAs. The speed is generally far below what a "real" CPU would do, but because we can implement more functions than just the CPU into a single chip, and because we can often get an FPGA that has been tested to better radiation exposure levels than the corresponding (faster, smaller semiconductor feature) "real" CPU, it still turns out to be the best option in many cases. I really mourn the lack of availability of rad-hard CPU's anymore. Harris RTX2010 (a forth-oriented 8/16 bit) and the RAD6000 (a PowerPC-like unit) were both workhorses in the past. The FPGA's we use routinely come up with chip-level problems of one form or another (bad programming algorithms, power-up sequencing issues, etc.) that cause angst, board reworks, or other serious cost and schedule problems. That never used to happen with "real" CPUs. >I challenge you to come up with the name of a single product that someone >can purchase right now, which uses an FPGA-implemented CPU, which is >general-purpose, and reasonably widely available. :-) admittedly, I can't really claim our avionics boxes are "widely available", though we're always looking for new customers.... -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 8 14:48:11 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 15:48:11 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:23 PM Subject: Re: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Honestly how much of the GBs of files on your hard drive is user > >> generated and irreplaceable and how much is just OS/App bloat along > >> with internet downloads? > > > > Part of my gigs and gigs is digital photographs going back to 1996 of > > places and buildings in Antarctica that aren't there any more. I > > would consider that irreplaceable. I do have multiple copies on > > multiple (types of) media. > > Indeed, I have a 2TB array here which is about 2/3 full, and contains no > application, game or OS binary code at all. There's some source code in > there and a couple of FTP mirrors, but most of it is data of various kinds. > > Peace... Sridhar Well I would expect people here to have "data", but I would think most people just have stuff they can download or rip again (music and movies). I have a few GB of pictures taken with a digital camera that get backed up a few ways (mirrored to another machine, MO, and DAT). But if you look at the GBs of files on my main machine its mostly OS, Apps, drivers, and Games that take up the space, not user created data. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 15:01:22 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:01:22 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4640D712.6030207@dunnington.plus.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I thought the dots on the bottom of the carts would cause audio tapes > to be kicked out of data drives. Is that not so? I _think_ you could > use data tapes in an audio DAT recorder/player, but I only ever saw > one of those, so I can't say for certain. Ah, that rings a bell. I remember someone bringing us a DAT (not DDS) tape and it not being accepted. > The DAT tapes I have (going back to 60meter DDS-1) all have this media > recognition system that the drives are supposed to respect, or so I > thought. Did I think wrong? No, that sounds right. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 8 15:19:14 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:19:14 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > But USB has been >> flaky and an >> incompatibility nightmare. (The latter being >> exactly what hardware >> makers want, of course, because it sells *new* >> hardware.) > > Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal > pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, > and it's not really much of a Bus either. Seconded. I have here several USB memory sticks which work on PCs but not on a Mac, and as if that's not bad enough, several others of the same make and same model number which work on both. Also a couple of USB-to-serial-port adaptors which work on some laptops but not others. When did you last see wide-ranging USB support on a Unix box (Linux doesn't count)? >> And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more >> backwards-compatible. > > Yes, and more reliable too. Also seconded. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From robert at irrelevant.com Tue May 8 15:23:17 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:23:17 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <883197.78967.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <883197.78967.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705081323n5c0fe1e1uaad7f77ca13b1ab1@mail.gmail.com> On 08/05/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > I don't have any audio DAT tapes, so I can't say for > certain, but I do have an audio DAT deck - it works > just fine with the computer data tapes. Never tried it > the other way around. I think the dots are just to > differentiate between DDS1, 2 and 3. I remember once I > tried to modify a DDS2 cart to become a DDS3, to see > what would happen. It didn't work. (gee, surprise, > surprise)... There is definitely a media recogition system on 4mm carts that stops you using them in the wrong sorts of drive; and indicates capacity etc. Stick a 120M cart in a drive that can't cope and it just spits it out again.. I've never seen an audio cart used in a data drive, and we had a lot of customers using them.. (I was also very disappointed with their general reliability.) From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 15:29:19 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 16:29:19 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <02de01c791a7$12d51970$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> <02de01c791a7$12d51970$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 15:26, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Now that I have a tarabyte at home (1 trillion bytes in box small > > enough to palm), I should set up an external SCSI box and check my > > backup tapes from a few years back. I have CD backups from that > > era as well (and copies of copies of it all), so I'm not worried > > about one (?!?) bad tape ruining my day, but I should take > > advantage of the equipment on hand to see what reads and migrate > > the contents to newer media. > > This is something that worries me a lot! I have lots and lots of > irreplaceable content and don't want to see it vanish. What can I > TRUST today for some two terabytes of data? Please, cheap options, I > still cannot afford a DLT :o) Huh? The bottom has pretty much dropped out of the DLT market. 264-slot DLT libraries *don't* sell on ebay for $10. (DEC TL896 aka ATL ACS-2640's) Drives aren't that expensive either, and LTO is starting to come down a lot in price. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 8 15:37:36 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 13:37:36 -0700 Subject: DDS vs Audio DAT Message-ID: <4640DF90.7090404@bitsavers.org> > I've never seen an audio cart used in a data drive, > and we had a lot of customers using them.. Audio DATs don't have the media recognition burst, and will be rejected by DDS drives. DDS tapes used as audio DAT tapes overwrite the DDS data, and are unusable as data tapes after doing that. Early audio DAT recorders (TEAC DA-30) will accept 90M data tapes, later TEAC drives will reject them. At one point we had about 6 DA-30's at KFJC, which have all developed transport problems after using a lot of 90M data tapes in them. We're slowly migrating 100's of DATs to optical or IDE disc media because of the problems preserving data recorded to DAT. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 15:40:49 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:40:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705081808.OAA04348@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <212579.87582.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> der Mouse wrote: >> USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... > USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. > SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace > cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace > terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining > in various combinations, give up, go home. I personally prefer USB on modern stuff... saves me fiddling around with crappy laptops and Microsoft rubbish... just plug in and use. I have 3 items that use USB... my mouse, my webcam and a USB 2.0 flash disk (2GB). I like the hands on of the old stuff though... I can learn and actually feel proud when things work the way *I* want them to :) I can also tell when things go wrong... not so with modern stuff where you need to bring up the troubleshooting docs on the laptop. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue May 8 15:48:31 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 16:48:31 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46406BC7.13057.32292308@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> <46403D2B.32531.3173125F@cclist.sydex.com> <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070508164150.0495fdd0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >I've had decent experience with MO media, but miserable experience >with the equipment. I've had both with both... ;-) Way back when ePay was young, I purchased a MaxOptix Tahiti-1 drive - it took standard 300Meg/side (flippy) 512byte sector 5.25" media, but it also took 500Meg/side flippy ultra-special Maxstor Tahiti disks... so the Tahiti-1 drive got it's name from the 1G (total) special disks it could use. I received 3 of the 300Meg/side media, and one of the Tahiti-1 disks in the deal. [[ I used it for backup media on a mailserver I'd built. ]] Still have the drive (it's a brick!) and last I checked it still worked... but I could *never* get it to reliably read/write/format the Tahiti-1 disk without data loss - but the standard 300Meg/side media was "bulletproof" and never had an issue. Never did figure out if it was the drive or the media - the Tahiti-1 media was mongo expensive, so I gave up on it. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 16:00:06 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 16:00:06 -0500 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4640E4D6.9000106@yahoo.co.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > Well I would expect people here to have "data", but I would think most > people just have stuff they can download or rip again (music and movies). The 'net is pretty transient, though. I've been bitten by things disappearing in the past where I hadn't archived them locally because I'd made the assumption that "they'd always be there". Worse still, the bigger the data, the less likely it is to stay around. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 8 16:07:35 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 22:07:35 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal > pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, > and it's not really much of a Bus either. I tried > using external USB 2.0 hard drives on a Macintosh > once, but every time I touched grounded metal (the > case, power strip, keyboard frame) in the vicinity, > all the USB drives unmounted. Which suggests your 'grounded metal' may not be grounded so well. Most of the problems I've had were with USB devices plugged into the front USB ports - because of the length (and poor quality) of the cable inside the machine, they'd work at 12Mbit for a flashdrive, but as soon as you go up to 480Mbit (especially with something like a scanner), the data just gets mangled. Minolta scanners are really fussy about this sort of signal degradation, but most other devices are more tolerant... 99% of the problems I've had with USB could be traced back to bad grounding, bad cable or a combination of the two. > And ever used a really recent PC clone? They have done > away with almost all I/O. No RS232C, no parallel, no > keyboard or mouse ports, it's all USB. So now you know why I'm fiercely protective of my laptop (a Toshiba Satellite Pro 4600) - it's a 1GHz Mobile Pentium III with Cardbus, RS232, parallel, WiFi and USB - only USB1.1, but it's better than the modern 2GHz ubermachines that only have USB and VGA (and even that's a push with most of them - some only have DVI-out). The main reason I'm using USB is speed - the fastest RS232 will work (with standard parts) is 115200bps. That gives a maximum theoretical transfer rate of 11.25KBytes/sec. 128KB of RAM over 11.25KB is around 11.4 seconds per track. Multiply that by 80 tracks, and you get 910.2 seconds - 15 minutes and 10 seconds. That's not counting the second or so for each track to actually read... Would you wait more than 15 minutes for a disc to image? If you assume that USB can transfer 1MByte per second (in USB2 High Speed mode, i.e. 12Mbit/sec), then you can transfer 128Kbytes in 125 milliseconds. Ten seconds data transfer time on top of the 80 seconds for data transfer - roughly a minute and a half best case. You're probably looking at a maximum of two minutes worst case - an eighth of the time it'd take to do the same thing over RS232. If there were easily-available (and cheap) SCSI slave controllers, and I had a SCSI host adapter, I might consider using SCSI. Fact is though, it's much easier just to throw in a USB PIC and program it to control the CPLD. But even so, SCSI is total overkill anyway - it's designed for connecting fast computers to really fast hard drives, and it does really well at that. For scanners and other I/O peripherals I wouldn't even consider it. > We kept the old fax server. A Pentium 100. Sometimes the old kit works far better than the new stuff. My current server is a Linksys NSLU2, coupled to a pair of Seagate 400GB USB drives (in RAID1 mode) and a Netgear DG834GT router. The aforementioned NSLU2 runs Debian Linux, and hasn't had a reboot in more than two weeks. The reboot before that was because I did something monumentally stupid when I replaced the old router with the DG834GT. Admittedly it's less than a year old, but it gets the job done quite nicely, and uses less power than the K6 box it replaced. Now I just need to hack together a DC UPS for it to get rid of the wall-warts and allow it to survive a brownout/blackout until the mains sorts itself out. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 16:12:33 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 17:12:33 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200705081712.33484.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 16:19, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal > > pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, > > and it's not really much of a Bus either. > > Seconded. I have here several USB memory sticks which work on PCs > but not on a Mac, and as if that's not bad enough, several others of > the same make and same model number which work on both. Also a > couple of USB-to-serial-port adaptors which work on some laptops but > not others. > > When did you last see wide-ranging USB support on a Unix box (Linux > doesn't count)? I'm starting to wonder if the reason I've NEVER had ANY problem with USB devices is because I've only used them on Linux machines (short of the USB keyboard/mouse that Sun and Apple ship with their machines). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 16:10:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 16:10:19 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4640E73B.8030207@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more >>> backwards-compatible. >> >> Yes, and more reliable too. > > Also seconded. I don't even need to comment... :-) In a traditional CPU-driven environment the logical thing to do would perhaps have been to make the CPU and floppy interface a separate board to the one containing the interface, with the CPU bus coupling them together. That way the core stays the same but the interface can change (USB, SCSI, Ethernet etc.) relatively easily (plug in the right board, drop in the right firmware ROM). I'm not sure if that maps to whatever IC Phil's using though. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 8 04:25:04 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 03:25:04 -0600 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640BFBA.1060600@yahoo.co.uk> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> <4640BFBA.1060600@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <464041F0.7030305@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>> If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it >>> into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and >>> knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read >>> though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 >>> baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... >> >> 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) > > Bah... change the shapes of the holes to represent different patterns... > you could easily quadruple storage capacity! :-) > Still I think DNA tops serial storage capacity. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue May 8 16:44:16 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 22:44:16 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <464051B2.8050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1178660656.21387.16.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 05:32 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm not sure what my chances are of finding a drive to read them are though > (and worse still, such a drive might not be SCSI and so require a proprietary > interface card and drivers). The packrat in me wants to try reading them > rather than just tossing them out though :-) I've got an Exabyte 8200 here - you could borrow it or send/bring the tapes here (S Northants) if you'd like. I haven't used it for a while but it's a fairly rugged piece of kit. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 8 11:49:54 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 12:49:54 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> <46409F79.3080104@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4640AA32.6000603@bellatlantic.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/8/07, C H Dickman wrote: >> After reading the documentation (RT-11 V5.04 release notes), the Pro is >> capable of formatting the hard disk itself. RT11 even includes a program >> for that purpose. It can only format standard drive types of course. >> >> DW.SYS (Pro hard disk for RT-11) includes geometries for RD50, RD51, >> RD52C, RD52Q, RD52A, RD53 and RD31... >> The hardware only supports 8 heads (3 select >> lines). The driver does not support partitions so there is a maximum of >> 65535 blocks no matter how big the disk. > > So does anyone have any docs to check for later versions of RT-11 and > supported geometries? I'm specifically thinking of the RD32 (ST-251) > of which I have a couple on hand. > > the drive would support more than 65536 blocks, but I certainly > wouldn't be upset if RT-11 gave up at the 32MB mark. > > -ethan > Without the details to use larger drives (>32mb) use the LD driver to partition it. Personally ST251s while they work tend to run warm and fail often as a result. If you want the 251 to last cooling is important. I tend to use ST225s (20mb) as they are bullet proof and heat is not a significant problem for them. For the ultimate in bullet proof RD52 (quantum D540) it's the fastest, most realiable and runs cool plus it's just under 31MB. I try to use them exclusively as I've not had one fail (I have 10 of them). Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 8 15:16:51 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:16:51 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705081808.OAA04348@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> <200705081808.OAA04348@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1178655411.730.0.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 13:59 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > >> USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... > > USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. > > SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace > > cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace > > terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining > > in various combinations, give up, go home. > > I too have almost exactly the opposite experience. SCSI seems > ridiculously robust - I've discovered that SCSI buses, working for > months, were triple-terminated, and I even saw one mostly work once > that was quadruple-terminated. But USB has been flaky and an > incompatibility nightmare. (The latter being exactly what hardware > makers want, of course, because it sells *new* hardware.) I've never really had problems with USB, but maybe that's because I pick stuff I know will work. > And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more backwards-compatible. USB > is quite recent. SCSI goes back to the '80s - and, what's more, it's > *compatible* all the way back to the '80s: I can take a disk that was > sold new with a Sun-2 and put it on my Athlon and have it Just Work, > and, conversely, I can take a brand new off-the-shelf SCSI disk and put > it on my Sun-2 and have it Just Work (well, except that I don't think I > *have* a Sun-2). (Sure, it'll stop down performance, but it'll work.) You've obviously not had to deal with 80s and 90s audio equipment with SCSI disks... Gordon From robert at irrelevant.com Tue May 8 17:01:36 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:01:36 +0100 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640E4D6.9000106@yahoo.co.uk> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> <4640E4D6.9000106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705081501p6c07e616ka30747eac74a164@mail.gmail.com> On 08/05/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > The 'net is pretty transient, though. I've been bitten by things disappearing > in the past where I hadn't archived them locally because I'd made the > assumption that "they'd always be there". Worse still, the bigger the data, > the less likely it is to stay around. > Being a pack-rat by nature, I've always tried to keep things I download; my "downloads" folder, which is just software, drivers, etc, things you might consider transient, is currently up to 25.2GB... It's been handy when needing old versions of things.. I keep everything important on RAID 1 array, to avoid drive failure; just upgraded to 2x500GB drives in a little NAS box. Backups against, erm, "operator error" up to now were always been overnight incrementals to another HDD (when on the previous FreeBSD server) .. I still have to replicate that again now somehow on the new box - maybe a third drive on the USB port, once I break into the (linux) firmware.. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 17:01:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 15:01:59 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> I've lately grown partial to USB interfaces--but not rolled on my own, but rather using those little USB modules that plug into a 32- pin DIP socket and give you 8 bits of I/O with send and receive FIFOs. They're treated as generic communications devices, so there are no drivers to write on the host side. The big thing to be careful of is the transfer mode. Single-byte transfer on *any* generation of USB is very very slow. OTOH, burst/block transfers can be nice and speedy. Unlike SCSI, USB really *is* plug-and-play. Cables are easy to come by and you can leech power from the host if your device doesn't draw too much. All in all, not a bad solution. SCSI, while simple on the host end (almost any platform has some sort of "pass through capability", is more of a problem on the device end. I'm not aware of any generic "plug it into a DIP socket" SCSI module, which means that you've got that layer to work out and debug. FWIW, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 8 17:25:12 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 23:25:12 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640E73B.8030207@yahoo.co.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> <4640E73B.8030207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4640F8C8.2060707@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > In a traditional CPU-driven environment the logical thing to do would > perhaps have been to make the CPU and floppy interface a separate board > to the one containing the interface, with the CPU bus coupling them > together. That way the core stays the same but the interface can change > (USB, SCSI, Ethernet etc.) relatively easily (plug in the right board, > drop in the right firmware ROM). The reader IS separate from the microcontroller. The CPLD handles data read, data write, and write gating. Its interface to the microcontroller consists of three address lines, an 8-bit bidirectional data bus, a read line and a write line. It's basically the same as the Z80 bus - nIOR, nIOW, address and data. The PIC handles the interface between the USB bus and the CPLD (register programming, waiting for operations to complete, etc), the status LEDs, and the floppy drive control lines (MOTEN, DS0, DS1, TG42, etc). That microcontroller and its support circuitry can be torn out and replaced with close to anything that can be made to speak 8080-style bus protocols (which usually involves a small amount of glue and not much else). So if you don't like USB, you're quite welcome to use SCSI, RS232, CAN, LINBUS, SB-Bus, Firewire, or some form of wet string serial or parallel interface - swap out the microcontroller, write some software to drive it and have fun. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 17:32:09 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:32:09 -0300 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03c001c791c1$14f366c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it > into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and > knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read > though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 > baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... May I backup a TB of data on that? o:o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 17:35:16 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:35:16 -0300 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <03df01c791c1$d1d9dc60$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I am looking for a datasheet for the N8202N or equivalent. > It would have been described in "Digital 8000 series TTL/MSl". > It was apparently manufactured by Signetics and equivalents seem to have > been available from Motorola and others. http://www.datasheets.org.uk/specsheet.php?part=N8202N Datasheetarchive.com is sometimes your friend. In this case, only a specsheet, hope that helps From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 17:39:15 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:39:15 -0300 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03e001c791c1$d35028b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal > pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, > and it's not really much of a Bus either. I tried > using external USB 2.0 hard drives on a Macintosh > once, but every time I touched grounded metal (the > case, power strip, keyboard frame) in the vicinity, > all the USB drives unmounted. Never had problems with them. Also, never had problems with XP **since I changed my motherboard**, and it's been two years since. > And ever used a really recent PC clone? They have done > away with almost all I/O. No RS232C, no parallel, no > keyboard or mouse ports, it's all USB. I had to set > one up as a server, and wasted a half a day trying to > get a modem working for the fax dial-in. We couldn't > use the nice external modem because it was RS232C. I > tried a USB->RS232 converter but could never get the > firmware to load properly under Linux. The crappy > internal WinModem wouldn't work under Linux. The > machine has no ISA slots, so no nice hardware internal > modem. Can't find a hardware PCI modem. One of the > guys bought some commercial Linux WinModem driver, and > it almost worked, but was really unreliable. I have no troubles here using **in winXP** any kind of serial/parallel/keyboard/mouse/coverters thru USB. But I have a **real nice** two RS232/422 and 1 LPT board. Works flawlessly. Never had a trouble. I work with hardware development. Sometimes I need 3 RS232 ports. so what is the matter? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 8 17:46:20 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:46:20 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <4640ABA2.7040908@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0JHO00K453QFVS9B@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <463F38E7.8060402@nktelco.net> <463FF2ED.5050806@hawkmountain.net> <4640ABA2.7040908@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On May 8, 2007, at 12:56 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > The RQDX3 definitely *is* different, and you have to reformat hard > drives for that (and AFAIR *that's* the same format as VS2000). Almost...different interleave, if I recall correctly, so it's better to do the format with the RQDX3. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rcini at optonline.net Tue May 8 17:52:16 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:52:16 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: Yes, odd indeed. It was like drinking from a fire hose last night. Anyway, the theory goes that the entire genome is coded in base triplets which encode only 64 proteins (6-bits). This "emulation" problem has been gnawing at him for over 10 years and he figures that now since the genome is fully mapped (although functions are still unknown), he can do some good. There has been lots of research, but any testing or whatever is still performed on live tissue. Why not emulate it? I didn't take down his entire curriculum vitae, but he's an EE that got into medicine (podiatry) and has a side interest in genetics (I guess). Hey, I read Scientific American, too, and I having a passing interest, but I'm not a man of medicine. Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? On 5/7/07 11:13 PM, "Sean Conner" wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini once stated: >> All: >> >> I got an unusual phone call this evening from a doctor on Long Island >> who is doing theoretical biological research that, he hopes, will have a >> commercial application. Without going into much detail (because it was like >> drinking from a fire hose and I can't remember it all), basically he is >> looking to emulate some biological processes in software. He believes that >> the "instructions" that code for the biological processes are based on 6-bit >> instructions (or multiples thereof), so he's looking for someone with that >> kind of architectural background. A PDP-8 has 12-bit instructions and I >> think the PDP-9 and 15 used 18-bit words. I'm not knowledgeable about any of >> the other minicomputer architectures to guess word size, but anything that's >> a low multiple of 6-bits should work for his purposes. >> >> If anyone's willing to have a conversation with this person, please >> contact me off list and I'll pass on his contact information. > > What an odd request. I would think that you could emulate such a device > on just about any CPU and his best bet would be to find anyone that can code > assembly (or that can write an emulator for his six-bit CPU). > > I don't see how a six-bit hardware architecture (if such a beast actually > exists) will have a one-to-one mapping to a six-bit biological architecture. > Heck, I would expect an 8-bit CPU to be decent for this, as that gives you > two additional bits for debugging or tracking of some kind. > > Heck, it sounds kind of fun (assembly experience: 6809, 8088, some 80386, > 68000, MIPS, some VAX, can recognize 8080, Z80 and 6502). > > -spc (Even wrote my own Forth-like langauge ... ) > > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 17:55:15 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:55:15 -0300 Subject: 8mm data cartridges References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com><02de01c791a7$12d51970$f0fea8c0@alpha> <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Huh? The bottom has pretty much dropped out of the DLT market. > 264-slot DLT libraries *don't* sell on ebay for $10. (DEC TL896 aka ATL > ACS-2640's) Drives aren't that expensive either, and LTO is starting > to come down a lot in price. So try to find that (at that price, hehe) in Brazil... :o( From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 16:54:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:54:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <0JHO00JO8X6LTXI5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at May 7, 7 05:34:36 pm Message-ID: > >> About putting multiple drives on a single connector--some older > >> drives have removable pullups (usually 150 ohms); later ones have > >> lower-value builtin pullups. In any case, I'd limit the number of > > > >Surely you mean higher-value here. Typically 3.5" drives have 1k pull-up > >resistors. > NO Lower. Some came with 130ohm and a few with 220/330 (130ohm) > terminations. No, I stand by what I said. Older drives have removeable (either electrically, by jumper links, or mechancially, as plug-in resistor packs) 150 Ohm , or thereabouts, termination resistors. I've never see a floppy drive witha 220/330 pack, but I can believe they exist. Later drives, designed for use on short cables (for example inside PC cabinets) have fixed-in-place (often soldered CMD resistors) pull-ups of around 1k. These are not strictly terminators (they are nowhere near the characteristic impedance of the ribbon cable), they are just pull-ups, but they seem to just about work. I was told that having to fit/remove the terminators confused most lusers.... ao the manufactuers went to this kludge. Mind you, when I added a couple of 3.5" drives externally to my XT, I did add a terminator at the end of the cable. Inspecting the drives I was using showed the soldered-in 1k Ohm resistors, so I used 220Ohm resistors in the terminator. The combined resistance of the 2 1k's and a 220Ohm in parallel was pretty close to 150 Ohms, since I had the drives and the terminator close together at one end of the cable, regarding it as a single lumped resistor was not too bad an aproximation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 17:11:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:11:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [midatlanticretro] WTD: Morrow Wunderbuss Thinker Toys In-Reply-To: <463FEC34.50902@comcast.net> from "Dan" at May 7, 7 11:19:16 pm Message-ID: > Caps always dry up and blowout--they don't last forever. That's why it's You are thinking of 2 different failure modes here. In an electorlytic capacitor, the dielectric (insulator) is a thin (oxide?) coating on the surface of the positive electrode. The electrolyte forms the engative electrode. If the electrolyte dries up, you get what's called a high ESR (effective series resistacnce). The capacitor appears as though it's got a high-ish value resisotr in sereis with it, and fails to, for example, smooth out ripple very well. The problem you're thinking of is when the dielectric film re-disolves into the electrolyte. The capacitor then appears as a short-circuit (2 electrodes connected by an electrolyte that's a good conductor). A high current can pass, the capacitor will overheat and blow itself apart. > good to have a Variac when powering equipment that hasn't been on for a > long time--a homemade current limiter helps too if no variac is available. I've never found a variac very useful. In fact for some SMPSUs, which appear as constant power loads and draw more current as the input voltage drops, a variac can actually do quite a bit of damage to the primary side compoents. You'rs much better off removing the capacitors and re-forming them on a bench supply with a suitable series resistor to limit the current. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 17:29:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:29:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <46404058.29064.317F781D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 8, 7 09:18:16 am Message-ID: > > One of the problems in engineering is knowing when to stop. DC37 > connectors are not uncommon, exist in IDC versions (easy attachment). > 50-pin D-subs are far less common. IDC headers aren't made for They're not particularly hard to get (I can't think of a company the sells DC37s but not DD50s, for example), but the IDC version of the DD50 is darn expensive (I speak from bitter experience here). > frequent use and are subject to pin breakage and stress on the PCB. There is, of course, the 50 pin microribbon connector. That's fairly easy to get in solder and IDC versions. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 17:48:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:48:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 8, 7 09:19:14 pm Message-ID: > > Agreed. I *HATE* USB devices. Aside from being a royal > > pain and unreliable, it's definitely not Universal, > > and it's not really much of a Bus either. > > Seconded. I have here several USB memory sticks which work on PCs but > not on a Mac, and as if that's not bad enough, several others of the > same make and same model number which work on both. Also a couple of > USB-to-serial-port adaptors which work on some laptops but not others. \begin{aol-mode} ME TOO! \end{aol-mode} I call it 'Useless Serial Botch'. It's not universal on the grounds I have over 200 computers here and not one of them has a USB interface or can have a USB interface (coversely, well over half have RS232 interfaces, many have or could have SCSi interfaces, etc) It is serial, agreed It is not a bus, at least not electrically. If it was, there'd be no need for hubs. Still, 1 out of 3 is not too bad for moder PC-speak, I guess... My other main boan is that the interface is nowhere near symmetical between the 2 devices. People used to moan about having to have RS232 null-modem cables, but at least for asynchronous operation they were just cables with the right wiring. Linking 2 USB 'slave' devices (say an HP50G calculator to a USB printer or a USB memory stick) is a lot more work, in fact it's probably impreactical. -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Tue May 8 18:08:31 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:08:31 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200705081908.31508.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 06:56, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- Jules Richardson > > wrote: > > How common were drives which could read these? I suspect the answer > > is "not very"! If anyone has one, how reliable was/is the media? > > > > I've got a couple of such Sony cartridges here dating from 1991; one does > > call itself a data cartridge (QG-112M) - the other one is a PAL/SECAM > > 90-minute Video8 tape (P5-90MP). > > Actually, they're pretty common from what I have seen, but then again, I > work with lots of systems that use them. Those are Exabyte cartridges - you > need to find an Exabyte drive. Pretty common on eBay, expect to pay > around $15. The Exabyte drives are SCSI, and are pretty reliable. There are > several models, but since we're talking about the older tapes, and since one > of them is a re-used video tape, you're looking for an Exabyte 8200 or 8500, > I'd say. Those drives are 5 1/4" FH form factor SCSI drives. Hm, I have a couple of Exabyte drives, but no media to go with them. I got them along with a whole mess of other stuff that was part of an IBM disk array setup -- SSA? Something like that, I can't recall. I remember the guy I got them from telling me that the tapes would hold something like 20G each. Does this sound like those tapes? If I'd known that a video tape would work in there I might have tried one, though I don't have any 8mm tapes handy at the moment. > Both tapes and drives seem pretty reliable, and using video tape for data > DOES work, although it's not technically reccomended. Be patient with those > old Exabyte drives though, they take a long time to do anything (like open > the door, rewind...) and need to be properly connected and terminated to be > able to open the door, or disconnected totally (i.e., if you have a external > drive with a terminator plugged into the drive, but it's not connected to > the computer, it won't open) Hm. Maybe when I run across these next I'll have to note the model numbers in here. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 8 18:31:02 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 00:31:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70705081501p6c07e616ka30747eac74a164@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <496789.52572.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Rob wrote: On 08/05/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > The 'net is pretty transient, though. I've been bitten by things disappearing > in the past where I hadn't archived them locally because I'd made the > assumption that "they'd always be there". Worse still, the bigger the data, > the less likely it is to stay around. > Well my laptop had 10,000 files (mainly system related - Windows 2K) when I first got it. Now it has around 40,000 files largely thanks to Windows Update and storing all the old trash... err... updates. My stuff consists largely of YouTube video's (about 1 Gigs worth), pictures, images, software (which is about 500MB's worth). I back up to CD-R's monthly (usually 1 for Progran files and another for video's etc.). I do have most of my YouTube video's on the aforementioned USB flash stick (in another thread), but it doesn't work too well. For some strange reason it doesn't like certain colours... either that or some parts of it's flash memory are faulty :( I would backup to DVD-R's, but my drive can only read DVD's and not write to them :( I would be tempted to get a 400GB/800GB harddrive from PC world, but I suspect these new vertical harddrives won't last half as long as my CD-R's, as they will be more affected by gravity, won;t they? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rtellason at verizon.net Tue May 8 18:47:03 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:47:03 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640B7EB.9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200705081947.03297.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 13:48, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > If the data is _really_ crucial, consider punching it > > into tape. Unlike cards, tape can't get dropped and > > knocked out of order. It's slow to punch and read > > though, so I simply rigged my TeleType to run at 19200 > > baud. Hold on, the chad box is on fire again... > > 10GB is a lot of punched tape. 8-) > > Peace... Sridhar Probably is... Last time I worked with punched tape was all the way back in 1978. I remember various-sized stacks of the stuff for different programs, etc. Given the typical fanfold stuff that was in common use, how much data would an inch or so stack of it hold? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rcini at optonline.net Tue May 8 19:32:54 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 20:32:54 -0400 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic Message-ID: All: I?ve done a bit of searching for this but can?t locate it. Does anyone have a scannable copy of the schematic for the Mockingboard sound board for the Apple II? Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 8 19:35:01 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's Message-ID: <200705090035.l490Z10U005000@onyx.spiritone.com> Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into something like this? http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port_tv&pscat2= I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would be to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 8 19:40:26 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 08, 2007 05:50:58 PM Message-ID: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> > > 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in > > specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: > > > > DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. > > Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use tapes > all that much. Personally I'd rate it a bit different. DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm I don't remember ever dealing with Travan, though I think I have a couple drives in the collection I've built at work. Zane From silent700 at gmail.com Tue May 8 19:41:59 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:41:59 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705081741p74e157b9iea952d86d5b6372c@mail.gmail.com> The IBM has a new owner - who I believe is on this list. I was sorry not to get it, but I'm used to finding my machines at hamfests, auctions and thrift stores. I couldn't compete in a bidding war for this one, cool as it was. If it's going where I think it's going, it will have lots of care and loads of other machines to keep it warm at night (and all day,) and will not be torn apart for gold or junked in a landfill, and that's what counts. -j From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 20:00:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:00:04 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 8, 7 09:19:14 pm, Message-ID: <4640BAA4.24036.335D2D08@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 23:48, Tony Duell wrote: > My other main boan is that the interface is nowhere near symmetical > between the 2 devices. People used to moan about having to have RS232 > null-modem cables, but at least for asynchronous operation they were just > cables with the right wiring. Linking 2 USB 'slave' devices (say an HP50G > calculator to a USB printer or a USB memory stick) is a lot more work, in > fact it's probably impreactical. Maybe for some devices, but there's a standard: http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/ Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Tue May 8 19:59:18 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 20:59:18 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200705082059.18358.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 15:48, Teo Zenios wrote: > Well I would expect people here to have "data", but I would think most > people just have stuff they can download or rip again (music and movies). That's still a nontrivial investment in time, though, and how do we recover that? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 8 19:59:07 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:59:07 -0500 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070508195605.0579e1d8@mail> At 05:52 PM 5/8/2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: >Yes, odd indeed. It was like drinking from a fire hose last night. Anyway, >the theory goes that the entire genome is coded in base triplets which >encode only 64 proteins (6-bits). >Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's >function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. >Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? Like others here, I don't see what six bits has to do with what he needs in an expert. Any old self-styled expert in computer architecture could have plenty to talk about with him. Maybe it's not six bits, maybe it's something else, so why should it matter? He has plenty to hypothesize and test without focusing on how computers did it with six bits. - John From spc at conman.org Tue May 8 20:16:49 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:16:49 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20070509011649.GA32171@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini once stated: > > Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's > function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. > > Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? I might be able to. I think there were a few others on this list that were interested as well. My email is spc at conman.org -spc (no explicit 6-or-9 bit architecture experience, but plenty with assembly ... ) From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 20:19:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:19:26 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 8, 7 09:19:14 pm, Message-ID: <4640BF2E.11117.336EE8EC@cclist.sydex.com> Well, if folks don't really care for USB, how about 802.3u? Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Tue May 8 20:34:06 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:34:06 -0400 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's In-Reply-To: <200705090035.l490Z10U005000@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <000a01c791da$22be66b0$6401a8c0@evan> I attached my Replica 1 into an LCD designed for a car headrest. :) -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:35 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into something like this? http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port _tv&pscat2= I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would be to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 8 20:37:18 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:37:18 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report Message-ID: <464125CE.2030304@bitsavers.org> > Well, if folks don't really care for USB Why don't we collectively just wait for the thing to work before picking it apart. It seems like a really useful device just the way it is. This discussion reminds me of what lead up to Imagedisk. A lot of talk, then someone just DOING it. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 20:41:59 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <645124.81547.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: we tended to > rank things this way: > > > > > > DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. > > > > Personally I'd rate it a bit different. > > DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm > > I don't remember ever dealing with Travan, though I > think I have a couple > drives in the collection I've built at work. Travan always seemed kinda like a refined QIC. I was never fond of QIC (especially those floppy interface ones!) I guess part of my issues with QIC is mostly because of the low quality drives that were so prevalent, and partly because of the tension rubber band... Personally, I would rate them in terms of reliability : 9 track open reel > DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC > audio cassette > ADAM DataPack > Exatron Stringy Floppy But, in keeping with modern-ish formats, i would agree with the orignial poster... Yeah, I know open reel tape has it's downfalls, but Cipher autoloader pickyness aside, I have had nothing but good experiances with it. Even DLT drives have given me more problems than I have had with nine tracks. But then again, maybe I'm just lucky :) -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 8 20:53:09 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <200705081908.31508.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <544157.10819.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > Hm, I have a couple of Exabyte drives, but no > media to go with them. I got > them along with a whole mess of other stuff that was > part of an IBM disk > array setup -- SSA? Something like that, I can't > recall. I remember the > guy I got them from telling me that the tapes would > hold something like 20G > each. Does this sound like those tapes? Not quite. Those drives are probably too new - the Exabyte Mammoth drives. Those can hold 20 gb on a tape, but require different tapes - AME instead of the MP tapes. AME stands for Advanced Metal Evaporated or something, as opposed to Metal Particle tapes like those used for video. The MP tapes won't work and will most likely clog up the heads on a Mammoth drive. The 8200, 8500, 8505 and 8700 drives take MP tapes, the 8900 and newer take AME. Somewhere along the line I think they changed them again though. > Hm. Maybe when I run across these next I'll have to > note the model numbers in > here. :-) Yes - there is a chance they're the older 8505/8505c drives that can do 7 gb or 14gb compressed using 160m MP tapes. The older drives (8200/8500) were full height. -Ian From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue May 8 20:54:59 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:54:59 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006701c79196$db269810$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <464129F3.7050407@hawkmountain.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > > > MO media seems to be made to last a long time, plus it has a hard outer case > to protect it (unlike DVD or CD recordable). > > Honestly how much of the GBs of files on your hard drive is user generated > and irreplaceable and how much is just OS/App bloat along with internet > downloads? > > TZ > eh.. I don't have a wide range of experience with MO... but the one drive I have (650MB Sony, 300ish meg per side)... is that it doesn't last. For reasons unknown I've lost two discs worth of data. tried in multiple drives... spin, init, eject... won't come ready... data... gone ! MO drives... on a shelf. Maybe newer ones are better... maybe these got to warm ? don't know... Just my $0.02 on MO. -- Curt > > From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue May 8 20:57:43 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:57:43 -0400 Subject: OS/8 on-disk structure Message-ID: Does anyone know if there is a scheme for mapping out bad blocks on an OS/8 RX01 disk? I have an image of an RX01 disk that I'm trying to retrieve data from and it seems to have bad data in the middle of a file (4 blocks). Is there any chance these were bad blocks that were mapped elsewhere on the disk? Thanks, David From brad at heeltoe.com Tue May 8 20:59:09 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:59:09 -0400 Subject: FPGA CPU's (was: Re: wonderful assembly language book) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 May 2007 13:01:51 CDT." Message-ID: <200705090159.l491x9uo002444@mwave.heeltoe.com> Mark Tapley wrote: >> >>Sure, but no one (in their right mind) builds a general purpose CPU out >>of them. Well, unless it's a research or "toy" project, a prototype >>design, or something very unusual and high end[1], but even in that case >>it's still not making a general purpose CPU out of it. Some people might disagree, but they may fit into the "high end[1]", but not unusual. Unless you think that the machines that test the chips in your cell phone or flat tv are unusual :-) I'd be curious where you thing a NIOS cpu in an Altera fpga fits into this discussion. Certainly a general purpose cpu. And it fits in an fpga. -brad From sttaylor at charter.net Tue May 8 21:05:20 2007 From: sttaylor at charter.net (Steve Taylor) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:05:20 -0700 Subject: SC/MP LCDS Message-ID: <46412C60.9060408@charter.net> First time post, I to am surprised and pleased to see the Scamp get some post time. I hope you will archive all of the LCDS Kit Documentation you have. (or send it to someone that can archive it) There is VERY LITTLE documentation (and no Original Natl. Semi. Docs) on the net. It looks like more people then you thought will be watching Ebay for your SC/MP auctions. Steve From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 8 21:44:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:44:29 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640F8C8.2060707@philpem.me.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> <4640E73B.8030207@yahoo.co.uk> <4640F8C8.2060707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Philip Pemberton wrote: > So if you don't like USB, you're quite welcome to use SCSI, RS232, CAN, > LINBUS, SB-Bus, Firewire, or some form of wet string serial or parallel > interface Mmmmm.... wet string. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 8 21:48:21 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:48:21 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <645124.81547.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <645124.81547.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:41 PM -0700 5/8/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >9 track open reel > DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC >> audio cassette > ADAM DataPack > Exatron Stringy >Floppy > >But, in keeping with modern-ish formats, i would agree >with the orignial poster... Sorry, no one is going to get me to agree that 8mm is better than 4mm DAT. Though I would put it ahead of 4mm DDS1 DAT. >Yeah, I know open reel tape has it's downfalls, but >Cipher autoloader pickyness aside, I have had nothing >but good experiances with it. Even DLT drives have >given me more problems than I have had with nine >tracks. But then again, maybe I'm just lucky :) No, I think you're right. I've had some horrible experiences with 9-Track tapes on a Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframe, but other than all those drive issues, I've found 9-Tracks to be the best out there. Actually if we're going with this age range of tapes, from everything I've heard, I'm sure those that have used them would like to put DECtape (TU-56) ahead of 9-Track, of course DECtape-II's (TU-58's) would likely be around the bottom. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 8 21:51:22 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:51:22 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <60BCBB3C-8B90-4934-B390-A353CB62890E@neurotica.com> On May 8, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in >>> specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: >>> >>> DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. >> >> Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use >> tapes >> all that much. > > Personally I'd rate it a bit different. > > DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm My ordering would be: DLT > QIC > 4mm DAT > 8mm In my experience, both 4mm and 8mm are "write-only backups". I shy away from any helical-scan media at this point. DLT is rock- solid and I trust my most critical stuff to it every day. It's hard to believe that it grew out of the abominable TK-50! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue May 8 21:52:37 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:52:37 -0400 Subject: OS/8 on-disk structure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <802E8D82-7910-4348-A6A9-8F0E78E71F7C@xlisper.com> > Does anyone know if there is a scheme for mapping out bad blocks on > an OS/8 RX01 disk? I have an image of an RX01 disk that I'm trying > to retrieve data from and it seems to have bad data in the middle > of a file (4 blocks). Is there any chance these were bad blocks > that were mapped elsewhere on the disk? I seem to have answered my own question. My program for reading files from an OS/8 image is working I guess. The problem seems to be that there are four bad blocks in my image. I'm not sure if that means that the original disk had bad blocks or if my imaging program had problems. I guess I need to find a way to attempt reading the 8" floppy again. Unfortunately, I've given away all of my 8" drives. :-( From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 21:54:42 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:54:42 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org> <040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20070509025442.GB7160@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 07:55:15PM -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >Huh? The bottom has pretty much dropped out of the DLT market. > >264-slot DLT libraries *don't* sell on ebay for $10. (DEC TL896 aka ATL > >ACS-2640's) Drives aren't that expensive either, and LTO is starting > >to come down a lot in price. > > So try to find that (at that price, hehe) in Brazil... :o( That's what international shipping is for. It shouldn't be hard to find cheap DLT drive off ebay, a standalone drive isn't all that heavy, and shouldn't be expensive to ship, even to Brazil. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 8 22:00:39 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:00:39 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On May 8, 2007, at 10:11 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> I was thinking GTK+ :-) >> >> So compile wxWidgets to use the GTK backend - I get my >> object-oriented API (I've been spoiled by Swing), you get your cute >> little GTK widgets. Win-win :) > > It seems to me that it'd make more sense to write some sort of UI in > plain ANSI C, with a text-based UI. Worry about the GUI part later > (and then you can feel free to use whatever whiz-bang graphics you > want > without annoying people like me, if it's got a good CLI). > > Possibly just write a library for doing basically everything you > want to > do with the device, and distribute that with some sort of API > reference, which should make writing a clean/portable/changeable UI > that much easier. This is a fantastic way to do things like this...If more software were developed in this manner, I'd have torn out a lot less hair by now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 8 22:14:03 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 20:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> <4640E73B.8030207@yahoo.co.uk> <4640F8C8.2060707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20070508201209.C48012@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 May 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Mmmmm.... wet string. You might need to change the wetting agent to handle colder climates. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 8 22:38:10 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:38:10 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 May 2007 23:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 8, 2007, at 10:11 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Possibly just write a library for doing basically everything you > > want to > > do with the device, and distribute that with some sort of API > > reference, which should make writing a clean/portable/changeable UI > > that much easier. > > This is a fantastic way to do things like this...If more software > were developed in this manner, I'd have torn out a lot less hair by > now. I think this is why I can't stand to work for a company that develops software (as I had in the past). Too many cut corners, assuming 100% of their users are idiots, and trying to develop code by piling more and more crap onto their old code base. I'm really, REALLY glad thatI don't work for that place anymore, and I work soemwhere that sysadmins actually write code, debug OSes, and are encouraged to make things clean and reusable, and avoid hacks. Oddly enough, since we have the source code to the commercial HSM at work, I'm pretty sure that we know how it works (and can debug it) better than the current vendor can (few, if any, of the original programmers for the code still work on it, as the software has gone through quite a few corporate acquisitions). In fact, I can't rememeber a single bug report that we've submitted in the past year or so, which we haven't figured out the fix for before EM^Wthe vendor got back to us with any sort of usable workaround. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 8 22:47:00 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:47:00 -0400 Subject: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <169831.62443.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640C015.6010708@gmail.com> <009401c791a9$cfbf4db0$0b01a8c0@game> <200705082059.18358.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <006f01c791ec$b707ce80$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:59 PM Subject: Re: Backups - was Re: 8mm data cartridges > On Tuesday 08 May 2007 15:48, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Well I would expect people here to have "data", but I would think most > > people just have stuff they can download or rip again (music and movies). > > That's still a nontrivial investment in time, though, and how do we recover > that? > > -- > Well they just download a few TB of other junk they will never use :) From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue May 8 22:58:49 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 20:58:49 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705081741p74e157b9iea952d86d5b6372c@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> <51ea77730705081741p74e157b9iea952d86d5b6372c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Jason T wrote: > The IBM has a new owner - who I believe is on this list. I was sorry > not to get it, but I'm used to finding my machines at hamfests, > auctions and thrift stores. I couldn't compete in a bidding war for > this one, cool as it was. If it's going where I think it's going, it > will have lots of care and loads of other machines to keep it warm at > night (and all day,) and will not be torn apart for gold or junked in > a landfill, and that's what counts. Any idea of the final price? I am curious. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 8 23:02:54 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 01:02:54 -0300 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <048101c791ef$0f0d4e50$f0fea8c0@alpha> > If there were easily-available (and cheap) SCSI slave controllers, and I > had a SCSI host adapter, I might consider using SCSI. Fact is though, it's > much easier just to throw in a USB PIC and program it to control the CPLD. > But even so, SCSI is total overkill anyway - it's designed for connecting > fast computers to really fast hard drives, and it does really well at > that. For scanners and other I/O peripherals I wouldn't even consider it. I don't think SCSI is worth considering. You can have easily RS232 AND USB 1.1 (don't remember if a 2.0 chip is already avaiable) using a FT232 or like USB converter chip. For the ones who doesn't like USB, there is always the fallback for RS232. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 23:16:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:16:22 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 08, 2007 05:50:58 PM, <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4640E8A6.22885.3410E434@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2007 at 17:40, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Personally I'd rate it a bit different. > > DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm > > I don't remember ever dealing with Travan, though I think I have a couple > drives in the collection I've built at work. One of the problems with *most* QIC and Travan is that it's write-a- tape, then verify-a-tape. When you're dealing with "time is money" or "we gotta get in, and get out as fast as possible", the need to do a separate verify pass is a huge liability. 4mm/8mm/DLT are read- after-write technologies. In theory, you can have a pretty scruffy tape with them and still get the backup on the first try. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue May 8 23:21:24 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 05:21:24 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges References: <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009101c791f3$b85a8910$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Yeah, I can't ever remember seeing 4mm audio DAT tapes >used for data either.... OK, some years ago I used to routinely use DAT cassettes in my DDS1 & DDS2 drives without any issues whatsoever when I ran short of DDS tapes. So I can say that it *DOES* work! However, I've only ever tried this with HP DDS1 & 2 drives (which ISTR were manufactured for them by Mitsumi) so I can't speak for other makes. YMMV. OTOH These days I tend to use DDS tapes in my DAT recorder, as I don't use the DDS drives anymore and DAT tapes are as rare as hen's teeth. They're better than nothing, but produce SIGNIFICANTLY more audio dropouts than "real" DAT tapes though....maybe it's an Aiwa thing...? TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue May 8 23:37:13 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 05:37:13 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges References: <4640AA72.8000102@dunnington.plus.com> <804476.936.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640D712.6030207@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <009201c791f3$b87982c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> The DAT tapes I have (going back to 60meter DDS-1) all have >>this media recognition system that the drives are supposed to >>respect, or so I thought. Did I think wrong? > > No, that sounds right. I'm sure that the OP is correct about the media recognition system....BUT.... ;-) I've just gone and fished out three of my DAT cassettes (two 90min [one Maxell, one TDK] and one 46min Maxell). Comparing them with the 60 meter HP DDS1 tape I still have lying next to my PC, the pattern of "media recognition" holes is 100% identical on all 4 tapes (in position AND depth). Go figure...? Maybe HP did things "their way"? TTFN - Pete. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue May 8 23:50:32 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:50:32 -0500 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> <51ea77730705081741p74e157b9iea952d86d5b6372c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705082150g52637c8eq2b9e004243bcff2@mail.gmail.com> On 5/8/07, Paxton Hoag wrote: > > Any idea of the final price? I am curious. Yes, as I was give a chance to offer a higher price. But as the buyer is likely on this list, I'll let him decide whether he'd care to divulge it. -- j From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 8 17:31:58 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 23:31:58 +0100 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705081814.OAA04413@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200705071448.l47EkgBc097895@dewey.classiccmp.org> <463FA8BA.10609@softjar.se> <015e01c7916b$b9f83c50$6600a8c0@BILLING> <200705081814.OAA04413@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1178663519.730.5.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 14:09 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > [...] - a demonstrable pattern of non-enforcement of license does in > > fact weaken the ability to enforce it. That is why often a company > > will act to notify, issue a cease & desist, etc. an infringing entity > > about an infraction of license that they actually in fact don't > > really care about > > This is also part of the reason why it's often worth asking, because if > they don't care about your case they may well give you a license for > "nothing" - doing so does not produce a weakening of their ability to > slap down infringement they *do* care about. That is *exactly* why I asked them. I figured they'd either say "Yes, here's a licence, don't use it for commercial stuff", in which has I'd be fine happy, or they would say "Absolutely not, you need to buy a new copy", or they'd say nothing at all, which I would take to mean "We don't care and we don't want to know. Please don't make us care.". Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 8 18:27:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:27:18 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives Message-ID: <0JHQ00JTCX21RZ9R@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Pro380 disk drives > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:56:02 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >On 08/05/2007 15:53, Roger Ivie wrote: >> On Mon, 7 May 2007, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >>> Can the drives be formatted on a VAXstation 2000 and moved to a PRO ? >>> (like you can do from a VS2000 to a PDP-11 (with RQDX3 ?)) >> >> I doubt it. >> >> Folks have been talking about formatting on an RQDX1. The RQDX1 uses a >> different format than that used by the RQDX2 and the VS2000. You can't >> format a disk on an RQDX1 and use it in an RQDX2. >> >> The RQDX2 was built around a single-chip disk controller, SMC's HDC9224. >> The same controller was used in the VS2000. The RQDX1 had a hand-crafted >> disk controller that used a slightly different format. Among other >> things, an RQDX1 can stuff 18 sectors on a track whereas the RQDX2, >> VS2000, and PCs for that matter can only do 17. > >That's incorrect; I suspect you're thinking of the RQDX3. The RQDX2 is >just a modified RQDX1, and it definitely uses the same controller. They >both put 18 sectors per track, and use the same format. You can take a >disk formatted on an RQDX1 and connect it to an RQDX2, though in some >cases the RQDX2 will alter some values on the disk and then it won't be >recognised properly if you move it back to the RQDX1 (depending on the >level of firmware on the two controllers). > >The RQDX3 definitely *is* different, and you have to reformat hard >drives for that (and AFAIR *that's* the same format as VS2000). Pete You have it correct 100%. The RQDX1/2 are the same board and mostly interchageable depending on firmware rev. It's a Quad width board. RQDX3 is a smaller board (dual VS quad) and is fully compatable format wise with VS2000. Allison >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From bqt at softjar.se Tue May 8 18:54:02 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 01:54:02 +0200 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> "Jay West" skrev: Johnny wrote... > > Jerome makes some interesting, if strange and faulty assumptions. > > Such as assuming that since Mentec hasn't complained although people > > "appear" to have been using and posting about RT-11 on classiccmp list > > for a long time. ...and... > > So I would somewhat ignore Jeromes view on the legality of things. > No, actually, Jerome's points are valid and his views are worth far more > than an admonishment to ignore them. I don't agree in this case. While I usually don't bother, since he's mostly into RT-11, which I haven't used, we're in rather separate worlds. But his assumptions about Mentec are just assumptions. > I should point out something that you dont seem to be aware of (at least > based on your statement above) - a demonstrable pattern of non-enforcement > of license does in fact weaken the ability to enforce it. That is why often > a company will act to notify, issue a cease & desist, etc. an infringing > entity about an infraction of license that they actually in fact don't > really care about - because it can then be argued that they didn't enforce > it in case xyz, so how can they selectively enforce it in another instance. Yes, but this is all based on the assumption that the company is aware. Otherwise it's not a point at all. So you should then first of all demostrate that the company *is* aware, and haven't bother taking action. I haven't seen that proven yet, and I'm pretty sure you haven't either... For the company to be aware two criteria must be fulfilled: 1) Mentec must know of this list, and monitor it. 2) People on this list must in no unclear terms make it clear that they are breaking the license agreements or violating Mentecs rights. And as I said before, I haven't seen either of these two proven yet. But to make it easier for Mentec (in case they are looking), how about a head count. Anyone who is using Mentec software without having a correct license: let us all know. Make a public reply to this. That will atleast fulfill one of the two requirements (if anyone will reply to this call out.) > This is also one of several reasons that some - not all - companies are wary > of creating a hobbyist license, because there is some amount of perception > that it will put their ability to enforce a license at peril - or at the > least possibly cloud the issue. Yes. That is true. > On a separate and unrelated point, I believe Johnny (or someone) questioned > whether Mentec is aware of this list, various archives, etc. I can assure > you that they are, just as Jerome intoned. Really? And how do you know this? Just because one ex-Mentec employee occasionally post here, do you think that Mentec knows about it? For all that I wish that a hobbyist program was available, none exist at the moment, and actions and false beliefs like this is likely going to keep preventing it from ever happening... Call me Mr. Negative if you like. I just try to point out things as I see them. You may all disagree. Can't help that. Atleast I got valid licenses. And you can have that too, if you pay for it. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 8 20:39:28 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:39:28 -0400 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's Message-ID: <0JHR00HQU369AP86@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into >something like this? > >http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port_tv&pscat2= > >I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would be >to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 >monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) > >Zane My Ti99/4a works fine with the NTSC and HD LCD TVs in the house. Same for the Proc-tech VDM1 and TRS80. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 8 20:42:49 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:42:49 -0400 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's Message-ID: <0JHR00I2T3BUEB0H@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into >something like this? > >http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port_tv&pscat2= > >I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would be >to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 >monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) > >Zane I forgot to add I've been on the hunt for a monochrome or color (not needed) for use instead of the rather old 9" Panasonic I monitor I use. I'm more interested in monitor (no tuner) and 12V operation. Allison From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 01:41:52 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 03:41:52 -0300 Subject: Mentec References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> Message-ID: <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> > For all that I wish that a hobbyist program was available, none exist at > the moment, and actions and false beliefs like this is likely going to > keep preventing it from ever happening... > Call me Mr. Negative if you like. I just try to point out things as I > see them. You may all disagree. Can't help that. Atleast I got valid > licenses. And you can have that too, if you pay for it. SSS question (simple, small and stupid): If your puter needs RT11 or whatever, and it was being used until decomissioned, wasn't it being used with a valid license? Isn't that license transfered? Is it still valid? If the license isn't transfered what is the destiny of it? Ok, dumb questions, but...so what? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 01:46:57 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 03:46:57 -0300 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's References: <0JHR00I2T3BUEB0H@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <050401c79206$1d28f130$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I forgot to add I've been on the hunt for a monochrome or color (not > needed) > for use instead of the rather old 9" Panasonic I monitor I use. I'm more > interested in monitor (no tuner) and 12V operation. Playstation one LCD monitors ;o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 02:06:30 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 04:06:30 -0300 Subject: Brazilian collector troubles. Was:Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org><040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha> <20070509025442.GB7160@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <051d01c79208$98088f80$f0fea8c0@alpha> > That's what international shipping is for. > It shouldn't be hard to find cheap DLT drive off ebay, a standalone > drive isn't all that heavy, and shouldn't be expensive to ship, even to > Brazil. Yes, but there are lots of variables on this thing: - International credit cards are not so common in Brazil. Myself, as an example, I don't have one. No paypal therefore. - Not all sellers ship international. Dunno why. Lots of things I tried to buy on EBAY before were denied because of international shipping - no matter how expensive or cheap it would be - In Brazil, believe it or not, we still have heavily taxing of anything abroad. It is a game of luck. Or no luck. A DLT drive can pass thru (it almost always happens) or be taxed as a new $5000 DLT drive. 60% on the price + shipping. Buying things in USA is an adventure for all of us. Why do you think I don't have simple things as a Speccy or a BBC, or an Atari 512/1024? Well, at least we have good beaches and nice sun ;o) As sad as it can be, these are the rules :o( Greetings from Brazil Alexandre http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed May 9 02:10:54 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 00:10:54 -0700 Subject: value of IBM 5110? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c790b3$707e2750$6401a8c0@Wayne> <463FB063.21276.2F4D259E@cclist.sydex.com> <51ea77730705081741p74e157b9iea952d86d5b6372c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464173FE.9040004@sbcglobal.net> I had offered him the $600 he was asking plus $150 to pack it all up and put it on a pallet. Total = $750. Bob Paxton Hoag wrote: > On 5/8/07, Jason T wrote: >> The IBM has a new owner - who I believe is on this list. I was sorry >> not to get it, but I'm used to finding my machines at hamfests, >> auctions and thrift stores. I couldn't compete in a bidding war for >> this one, cool as it was. If it's going where I think it's going, it >> will have lots of care and loads of other machines to keep it warm at >> night (and all day,) and will not be torn apart for gold or junked in >> a landfill, and that's what counts. > > > Any idea of the final price? I am curious. > > Paxton > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 9 02:51:45 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 00:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: Mac SE/30 Message-ID: Does anyone here have a Mac SE/30 in good working order? I'd prefer one with little to no yellowing, keyboard, mouse, a good crt, and good floppy. Hard drive is unimportant as I have plenty of suitable SCSI drives. Extra memory would be nice too. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From robert at irrelevant.com Wed May 9 03:26:13 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 09:26:13 +0100 Subject: Mentec In-Reply-To: <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705090126w5e2aacf6t98efdfb48079ffd6@mail.gmail.com> On 09/05/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > SSS question (simple, small and stupid): > > If your puter needs RT11 or whatever, and it was being used until > decomissioned, wasn't it being used with a valid license? Isn't that license > transfered? Is it still valid? If the license isn't transfered what is the > destiny of it? > > Ok, dumb questions, but...so what? > I can't speak for RT11, but in the "whatever" case.. the company I user to work for was a reseller for "BOS" (later Global) software. The licences we sold to the end-users were basically: - for that company's use only - for use on any server they owned (to a qty limit as definied by the licence)[1] - not transferrable. - in some cases, dependant on an annual fee. This meant that it was trivial to replace servers, even for different architectures (as there was no distinction made between, say, pdp11, x86, novell, windows installations, and you could just copy the apps and data between them - the OS discs fo each implementation were issued for a "nominal" copy charge..) However, we had a couple of instances where a company went belly-up, the assets were sold to a new company intending to re-start trading "in-place" as it were, but they had to buy a completely new licence to use the software on the machines they had in their posession unchanged. (It helped, probably, that the company name and address of the original licence holder was always displayed prominantly on the sign-in screen!) So... yes,the machine might move on and still work for its new owner, but the software wouldn't then be licenced! Rob [1]assuming they bought a "network" version, which covered all machines that were linked in some form - we successfully argued once that half a dozen sites that had a modem link between to transfer transactions overnight counted as a single network... From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 9 04:11:36 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 10:11:36 +0100 Subject: FPGA CPU's (was: Re: wonderful assembly language book) In-Reply-To: References: <200705061702.l46H1e4D078554@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: FPGA designs Which reminds me back in 1987 or so I bought a NX4 single board computer that ran Forth was that a FPGA design? it had a Mostek MKGD02TG as far as I can make out from the picture. It failed some years ago when I last had a play with it. Dave Caroline pic at www.archivist.info/computers/nx4.jpg From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 9 07:26:06 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 07:26:06 -0500 Subject: Mentec References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> Message-ID: <008901c79235$3a2abd70$6600a8c0@BILLING> Johnny wrote... >But his assumptions about Mentec are just assumptions. I guess you weren't reading between the lines in my post. > So you should then first of all > demostrate that the company *is* aware, and haven't bother taking > action. Oh I should? Hypothetically, what if doing so is currently counterproductive? > I haven't seen that proven yet, and I'm pretty sure you haven't > either... Interesting. ....snip... > Really? And how do you know this? Just because one ex-Mentec employee > occasionally post here, do you think that Mentec knows about it? Now that - is an assumption on your part. Just because you don't know about something, and the people involved aren't willing to discuss it publicly with you, doesn't mean it didn't occur. Jay West From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 9 07:44:20 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 08:44:20 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <0JHQ00JTCX21RZ9R@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JHQ00JTCX21RZ9R@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 5/8/07, Allison wrote: > The RQDX1/2 are the same board and mostly interchageable depending on > firmware rev. It's a Quad width board. What are the essential differences between an RQDX1 and RQDX2? AFAICR, the RQDX1 doesn't pass grant below it so it *must* be the last board on the bus, but the RQDX2 doesn't have that limitation; and, the RQDX2, I think, knows about one or two more drives than the RQDX1. a) is that correct? and b) is that all? I have at least one RQDX1, several RQDX3, and I don't think I have any RQDX2, but one never knows what one will stumble across. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 9 07:49:45 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 07:49:45 -0500 Subject: License (was: Mentec) References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org><46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <009801c79238$881b1a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> It was written... > If your puter needs RT11 or whatever, and it was being used until > decomissioned, wasn't it being used with a valid license? Isn't that > license transfered? Is it still valid? If the license isn't transfered > what is the destiny of it? There is no cut and dry answer, at the least because of the phrase "or whatever". Some software is sold (implying a transfer of ownership), some software is licensed (implying only a right-to-use). Separately, there can also be conditions on either transaction as to reverse engineering, re-sale or re-licensing, subletting or "rental", partial inclusion in derivative works, etc. The simple answer - just because you received a machine with a valid license doesn't neccessarily mean that license is valid to you. It may be. It might not be. It was common that when a software was licensed (not sold) - the license was tied to the machine. This meant that if you gave or sold the machine to someone else, the license (right to use) was transferred with the machine. I believe this was the case with the base 2-user HP-UX on HP9000 gear for example during the period I was involved with selling it (it was not true for add-on licenses above 2 users). It was also another common practice that when the software was licensed it was tied to the purchasing company instead of the machine. If the company sold the machine they could not (legally) provide the software (or perhaps the license) with it. That means that what ever company bought the system would have to go purchase a license for the software in order to be legal. In other words, the license was not transferrable. That is why the term "right to use" is probably more clear. To confuse matters more - I have seen various software packages where the policy changed over time. For example - early on in a software products life it may have been sold to each customer outright (while copyright was retained of course). Then later versions were only licensed. Also complicating the picture is that some times a company would have different licensing policies for the OS versus layered products. 3rd party application software could of course also have different terms than the underlying OS. I must say I don't know what DEC's policy was. Pure conjecture on my part - but my GUESS would be that for the appropriate fee you received a non-transferrable right to use. So if the computer goes to someone else, they have to buy their own license. I do know that some vendors would charge for a whole new license, while others would charge a token "license transfer fee". I think sometimes this depended on the current desire of management to get maintenance revenue from the company it was transferring to. In other words, for a small shop they may not see much future revenue in maintenance/support fees so they quote a full license transfer. For a large shop they may be willing to lowball the license transfer just to get the maintenance/support fees. It all depends. One datapoint - I know that most (if not all) versions of TSX+ were licensed to the company, non-transferrable. If you got their original disks and they were no longer using it - you still did not own a license. You had to buy the "right to use" yourself. Hope this expands on the issue! Jay Jay From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed May 9 06:48:12 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 07:48:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <60BCBB3C-8B90-4934-B390-A353CB62890E@neurotica.com> References: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> <60BCBB3C-8B90-4934-B390-A353CB62890E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 8, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in >>>> specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: >>>> >>>> DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. >>> >>> Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use tapes >>> all that much. >> >> Personally I'd rate it a bit different. >> >> DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm > > My ordering would be: > DLT > QIC > 4mm DAT > 8mm > > In my experience, both 4mm and 8mm are "write-only backups". I shy away > from any helical-scan media at this point. DLT is rock-solid and I trust my > most critical stuff to it every day. It's hard to believe that it grew out > of the abominable TK-50! Amen. My experiences with 4 & 8mm rotary-head units have been abysmal. The Exabyte drives, in particular, just seem to randomly drop dead without warning. And, as others comment, the 1/2-ht. front-loading Exabyte drives are a mechanical nightmare. They make the worst 80s vintage VCR load mechanism look downright simple to repair. The majority of my backups are made on DLT IV tapes using DLT7000 series drives (mostly Compaq and HP OEM units). If you have the latest firmware flashed, they are incredibly solid. In some cases, used tapes require a heroic amount of bulk erasing before they can be reliably written. I have heard this is a result of them being previously used on lower-density drives, but have no proof of this. One of the coolest features of DLT is that they are self-aligning. The drive goes through an intricate dance during tape load to teach the head servo where each track center is. I believe they are capable of re-training during operation if things are found to drift. Also, someone in this thread mentioned that DLT IV was not a read-after-write medium. Is that really the case? I have seen drives throw errors when trying to write damaged media. If they don't do a read-back, how would they know? Another personal favorite is the late Onstream linear tape drive. I have an ADR2 120GB external SCSI drive that just keeps on ticking. Media is getting tough to find, but occasionally I score a few cartridges on ebay. For reasons unknown, the 1/2 size 60GB ADR cartridges do not work at all in these drives. The 120s have never given a problem. These units do not seem to perform a read-after-write, but I've gotten in the habit of making a second verification pass on the tape before considering a backup complete. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed May 9 06:50:34 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 07:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I?ve done a bit of searching for this but can?t locate it. Does anyone > have a scannable copy of the schematic for the Mockingboard sound board for > the Apple II? The folks at GSE Reactive have revived the Mockingboard as a product. One presumes they have the schematic available: http://www.gse-reactive.com/ -- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 9 07:56:19 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:56:19 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives Message-ID: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Pro380 disk drives > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:44:20 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 5/8/07, Allison wrote: >> The RQDX1/2 are the same board and mostly interchageable depending on >> firmware rev. It's a Quad width board. > >What are the essential differences between an RQDX1 and RQDX2? >AFAICR, the RQDX1 doesn't pass grant below it so it *must* be the last >board on the bus, but the RQDX2 doesn't have that limitation; and, the >RQDX2, I think, knows about one or two more drives than the RQDX1. a) >is that correct? and b) is that all? > >I have at least one RQDX1, several RQDX3, and I don't think I have any >RQDX2, but one never knows what one will stumble across. > >-ethan They looks the same but the handle has a different rev. The real differences are bug fixes. Essentially the RQDX2 is a bugfixed RQDX1 with later firmware that is aware of a larger (at that time) assortment of drives. In the real world of MSPC controllers RQDX3 is most desireable and RQDX1 the least. FYI: some flavors of RQDX1/2 didn't pass interrupt grant and MUST be the last card in the chain. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 9 08:17:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 09:17:37 -0400 Subject: License (was: Mentec) In-Reply-To: <009801c79238$881b1a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> <009801c79238$881b1a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 5/9/07, Jay West wrote: > I must say I don't know what DEC's policy was. Pure conjecture on my part - > but my GUESS would be that for the appropriate fee you received a > non-transferrable right to use. So if the computer goes to someone else, > they have to buy their own license. I do know that some vendors would charge > for a whole new license, while others would charge a token "license transfer > fee". I happen to have a genine, registered license for VMS for an 11/725 I bought during a period of transition in DEC's licensing practices, so I can at least speak to that. Before some date (Feb, 1987?), if you bought a VAX from someone else, both parties completed a multi-part form to transfer the license from the old owner to the new owner. This did not include updates, maintenance, or anything except what was "on" the machine when it changed hands. DEC resellers used to keep file cabinets full of paperwork that had the seller's half filled out so that when the hardware sold, the new buyer completed their part and the license transferred (with the reseller acting as middleman, but not directly involved in the chain of custody). From all the activity back and forth, DEC knew how large the relicensing market was, and for a variety of reasons (direct revenue, encouraging buyers to look at new systems vs old, etc.), DEC halted the practice of license transfer. Stocks of machines plunged in intrinsic value since the licenses on them were worthless. I bought my 11/725 the month prior to the change in policy, so I got it for a steal (at the time) since the next month, its former sale price would be a small fraction of the cost of a new license ($10,000!). This ban on transfers lasted about a month. Obviously, someone was made to realize that requiring all used VAXen to have new licenses wouldn't turn into buckets of money pouring into DEC either in the form of new licenses or new hardware sales, and, most likely, would result in customers examining technology from other vendors, so the new policy was to continue to process the old paperwork the old way, but with a $250 fee attached to the process. The buyer typically paid the fee, so it had a minimal impact on the commercial used equipment market. The policy change did affect us where I worked at the time - since we used a 11/730 for production, even into the 1990s (small software dev box that could run a different version of the OS from our primary environment), the cheapest way for a number of years to keep that box alive was to buy deeply discounted machines, then strip them. "Nobody" wanted an 11/725 in the late 1980s, and they were somewhat cheap to ship, especially if you let th reseller reclaim the RC25 drive before selling it to you - The PSU and CPU boards were identical to the 11/730, so it was cheaper to buy an entire machine as a box of spares than it was to be offline for a couple of days, scrambling to get parts in and get the box working. The only impact to us, in the end, was that we didn't bother to pay to have the licenses transferred since we were going to gut the machine anyway. Formerly, we got a box of parts and a license we didn't use (but it was an asset with some potential value as a base for an upgrade); now, we just let the license evaporate. All that having been said, I have a memory that DEC did _not_ treat PDP-11 products in the same way. I _think_ PDP-11 OSes had non-transferrable licenses pretty much across the board, but RSTS/E might have been an exception. For non-commercial users (hobbyists), though, I remember the real issue was access to distribution kits. I was so happy when a friend loaned me his set of 2.BSD tapes because it was something to load on my PDP-11 other than the floppies and packs that came with it when it was chucked out (old versions of RT-11 and RSX-11 - too old to be interesting at the time). With the modern ability to toss around multi-hundred-megabyte files like we used to swap floppies, physical access to install media is much less of an issue than it once was. Licensing, however, is just as thorny, if not thornier due to commercial disinterest in products that old with no obvious revenue stream attached to them. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 9 08:39:19 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:39:19 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4641CF07.7070405@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > So now you know why I'm fiercely protective of my laptop (a Toshiba > Satellite Pro 4600) - it's a 1GHz Mobile Pentium III with Cardbus, > RS232, parallel, WiFi and USB - only USB1.1, but it's better than the > modern 2GHz ubermachines that only have USB and VGA (and even that's a > push with most of them - some only have DVI-out). My favorite laptop is the Thinkpad A31p. 1600x1200 15" screen, room for a DVD-writer and a DVD-ROM at the same time, or two extra batteries, cheap docking stations available, a full complement of ports, etc. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 9 08:39:05 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:39:05 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4641CEF9.2040903@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > So now you know why I'm fiercely protective of my laptop (a Toshiba > Satellite Pro 4600) - it's a 1GHz Mobile Pentium III with Cardbus, > RS232, parallel, WiFi and USB - only USB1.1, but it's better than the > modern 2GHz ubermachines that only have USB and VGA (and even that's a > push with most of them - some only have DVI-out). My favorite laptop is the Thinkpad A31p. 1600x1200 15" screen, room for a DVD-writer and a DVD-ROM at the same time, or two extra batteries, cheap docking stations available, etc. Peace... Sridhar From vrs at msn.com Wed May 9 08:52:35 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 06:52:35 -0700 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Dave Caroline" > quick and dirty pics of the Signetics databook Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. Vince From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 9 08:53:42 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:53:42 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4641D266.8060105@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> 8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in >>> specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this way: >>> >>> DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. >> Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use tapes >> all that much. > > Personally I'd rate it a bit different. > > DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm > > I don't remember ever dealing with Travan, though I think I have a couple > drives in the collection I've built at work. I definitely wouldn't rate DAT/DDS anywhere near that highly. I've found that 8mm tapes are fine if you don't write over them again and again. I can't say the same for DDS. Peace... Sridhar From wizard at voyager.net Wed May 9 08:55:30 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:55:30 -0400 Subject: License (was: Mentec) In-Reply-To: <009801c79238$881b1a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <200705081702.l48H0t0Q021359@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46410D9A.9010103@softjar.se> <04ef01c79205$640cf110$f0fea8c0@alpha> <009801c79238$881b1a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1178718930.6825.131.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 07:49 -0500, Jay West wrote: > . . . Some software is sold (implying a transfer of ownership), some > software is licensed (implying only a right-to-use). Several court decisions about software (dates uncertain) made it at least seem important to software companies that they license software, rather than sell it. > Separately, there can also be conditions on either transaction > as to reverse engineering, re-sale or re-licensing, subletting > or "rental", partial inclusion in derivative works, etc. Yes, that was the substance of the decisions I mention above. It was determined that if you buy a product, you have the right to reverse engineer, rent, transfer, or essentially do anything you wish with it. "Okay, fine, we won't sell it any more" was the response of the software industry, almost to a company. > The simple answer - just because you received a machine with a valid license > doesn't neccessarily mean that license is valid to you. It may be. It might > not be. Exactly. What you can do, and what you actually HAVE, in a software licensing agreement, depends entirely upon the agreement itself. Naturally enough, those agreements, written by the software company's attorneys, strongly favor the company. > To confuse matters more - I have seen various software packages where the > policy changed over time. For example - early on in a software products life > it may have been sold to each customer outright (while copyright was > retained of course). Then later versions were only licensed. Yes. After the decisions, many companies dropped their sales programs in favor of licensing. Licensing generated much more income for the software companies, as transfers of equipment generally resulted in additional licensing fees from the new owners. Voila! An industry is born. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 8 21:43:55 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 20:43:55 -0600 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4641356B.7090206@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard A. Cini wrote: > Yes, odd indeed. It was like drinking from a fire hose last night. Anyway, > the theory goes that the entire genome is coded in base triplets which > encode only 64 proteins (6-bits). > > This "emulation" problem has been gnawing at him for over 10 years and he > figures that now since the genome is fully mapped (although functions are > still unknown), he can do some good. There has been lots of research, but > any testing or whatever is still performed on live tissue. Why not emulate > it? > > I didn't take down his entire curriculum vitae, but he's an EE that got into > medicine (podiatry) and has a side interest in genetics (I guess). Hey, I > read Scientific American, too, and I having a passing interest, but I'm not > a man of medicine. > > Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's > function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. > > Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? I could talk only as hobby type project, but for computer hardware what is needed? Other what is EE? I don't think it is too hard to understand. You don't need medicine for hardware - just think tinker-toys since the basic level is still atomic structures. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 9 09:47:21 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 07:47:21 -0700 Subject: FPGA CPU's (was: Re: wonderful assembly language book) Message-ID: >From: "Dave Caroline" > >FPGA designs > >Which reminds me back in 1987 or so I bought a NX4 single board >computer that ran Forth was that a FPGA design? it had a Mostek >MKGD02TG as far as I can make out from the picture. It failed some >years ago when I last had a play with it. > >Dave Caroline > >pic at www.archivist.info/computers/nx4.jpg Hi There were several Forth implementations during that time. After the NC4000 was created, many realized how easy it was to create a Forth processor with the newer technology in ASIC or programmable arrays. I wonder what has failed on your board. If it isn't the chip, the rest of the board is relatively standard parts. These Forth board were often used as accelerators for PC systems. Several test that showed that these simple processors could run application more than 10 times faster than similar clocked x86 or 68K machines of the time. The RTX2000's were made RAD hardened and used quite a bit in satellites. Much of the speed was because Forth lends it self to a 3 bus architectures that functionally used at least two of these buss on each instruction. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Catch suspicious messages before you open them?with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 9 09:57:48 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 07:57:48 -0700 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's In-Reply-To: <0JHR00I2T3BUEB0H@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: >From: Allison > > > > >Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's > > From: "Zane H. Healy" > > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into > >something like this? > > > >http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port_tv&pscat2= > > > >I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would >be > >to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 > >monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) > > > >Zane > >I forgot to add I've been on the hunt for a monochrome or color (not >needed) >for use instead of the rather old 9" Panasonic I monitor I use. I'm more >interested in monitor (no tuner) and 12V operation. > Hi Allison It seems like I saw someone else mention the monitors used in head rest for cars. These mostly use S video or similar signals. A few months back, I bought two screens, DVD player, two headphones, video distribution amp, FM to radio and FM to headsets for a little over $300. This was on ebay. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ See what you?re getting into?before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 9 11:12:03 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 12:12:03 -0400 Subject: Brazilian collector troubles. Was:Re: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <051d01c79208$98088f80$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org><040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha> <20070509025442.GB7160@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> <051d01c79208$98088f80$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <6C5C93C1-F007-40E3-B0F7-26EE996FC861@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2007, at 3:06 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> That's what international shipping is for. >> It shouldn't be hard to find cheap DLT drive off ebay, a standalone >> drive isn't all that heavy, and shouldn't be expensive to ship, >> even to >> Brazil. > > Yes, but there are lots of variables on this thing: > > - International credit cards are not so common in Brazil. > Myself, as an example, I don't have one. No paypal therefore. > - Not all sellers ship international. Dunno why. Lots of things > I tried to buy on EBAY before were denied because of international > shipping - no matter how expensive or cheap it would be International shipping is a big pain in the butt, overall. Customs garbage, paperwork paperwork paperwork. Most people here avoid it for that reason. I'm still working up the mental energy to ship you those chips we talked about. :) > Well, at least we have good beaches and nice sun ;o) > > As sad as it can be, these are the rules :o( Well...I live in Florida, about two miles from the Gulf of Mexico...We have some good beaches here too. BUT it seems you have the most beautiful women in the world. I'd say that's a pretty big point in Brasil's favor. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 9 11:33:05 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 09:33:05 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4641D266.8060105@gmail.com> References: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> <4641D266.8060105@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:53 AM -0400 5/9/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>>8 mm wasn't bad. At about that time, we were heavily involved in >>>>specifying tape for customers and we tended to rank things this >>>>way: >>>> >>>>DLT > 8mm > 4mm DAT > Travan > QIC. >>>Interesting. That's about my assessment too, though I don't use >>>tapes all that much. >> >>Personally I'd rate it a bit different. >> >>DLT > 4mm DAT > QIC > 8mm >> >>I don't remember ever dealing with Travan, though I think I have a couple >>drives in the collection I've built at work. > >I definitely wouldn't rate DAT/DDS anywhere near that highly. I've >found that 8mm tapes are fine if you don't write over them again and >again. I can't say the same for DDS. I'm less concerned about the ability to rewrite the tapes than I am about the ability to *READ* the tapes. My experience has shown that DDS1 tapes are an absolute nightmare, as are 8mm tapes. However, we've had pretty good luck at work recovering data from DDS2 and newer DAT tapes, as well as QIC150 tapes (though it's been years since anyone has turned up with one of those). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed May 9 12:21:08 2007 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:21:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Info sought Message-ID: <19875.88.211.153.27.1178731268.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hey all, Anybody familiar with a person called Don Crowther (Maynard, Mass.) His ebay handle is 'doncrow'. I bought an item from him and up to know he did not respond to 2 inquiries for follow up. Thanks, Ed From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 12:17:39 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 12:17:39 -0500 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... Message-ID: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Rather an odd find today, tucked away in a box of printer paper: A pair of "Olivetti Minidisks". The flexible disks are around 2" in diameter, but curiously have no jacket whatsoever - just a cardboard sleeve to protect them when not in use. I've never come across these before; any idea what system(s) they're for? Were they something cheap and cheerful for some sort of word processor machine? cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 12:30:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 12:30:40 -0500 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > *must proof-read subject line before sending* - d'oh! :-) From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed May 9 12:56:59 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:56:59 -0400 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: dwight elvey wrote: > A few months back, I bought two screens, DVD player, > two headphones, video distribution amp, FM to radio > and FM to headsets for a little over $300. A quiet car trip with two children, priceless. ;-) No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.6/794 - Release Date: 5/8/2007 2:23 PM From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 9 13:05:10 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:05:10 +0100 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: You have got me hunting here now!, we have an early Olibetti calculating "thing" an Audit 5 iirc here that did the purchase sales and wages of a local company (Ordish and Hall) it used straight magnetic strips though (we have them in a box) Dave Caroline On 5/9/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > *must proof-read subject line before sending* - d'oh! :-) > > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 9 13:17:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:17:35 -0400 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: References: <200705090040.l490eQia005120@onyx.spiritone.com> <4641D266.8060105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4642103F.3010209@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I definitely wouldn't rate DAT/DDS anywhere near that highly. I've >> found that 8mm tapes are fine if you don't write over them again and >> again. I can't say the same for DDS. > > I'm less concerned about the ability to rewrite the tapes than I am > about the ability to *READ* the tapes. My experience has shown that > DDS1 tapes are an absolute nightmare, as are 8mm tapes. However, we've > had pretty good luck at work recovering data from DDS2 and newer DAT > tapes, as well as QIC150 tapes (though it's been years since anyone has > turned up with one of those). That's what I mean. I usually can't read DAT tapes that have been sitting on the shelf, even if they were new when first written. The only 8mm tapes I couldn't read were the ones that were written and written and written. Peace... Sridhar From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 9 13:19:54 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 11:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Info sought In-Reply-To: <19875.88.211.153.27.1178731268.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <54838.30727.qm@web82613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hey all, > > Anybody familiar with a person called Don Crowther > (Maynard, Mass.) > His ebay handle is 'doncrow'. I bought a few items from him, and they were delivered with no problem. --Bill From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 9 13:23:38 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:23:38 +0100 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Perhaps its from one of these an Olivetti BCS2030 see http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=41469 Dave Caroline From silent700 at gmail.com Wed May 9 13:26:15 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 13:26:15 -0500 Subject: The Plato system Message-ID: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> When contemplating spending some fairly serious coin on that IBM system earlier this week, a friend asked "which systems/machines out there would you pay 'real' money for?" Since I'm not a Big Iron collector, and I'm used to spending no more than $10-20 on any given piece, that's a fair question for me. Maybe a Symbolics Lisp machine. Maybe an original Sun machine, or even a 2-series. A Xerox Alto. Historical stuff like that. Then I remembered when my high school class took a trip down to the U of I at Champaign-Urbana for "Engineering Open House" and I was sat in front of this monstrous wooden terminal with beguiling orange vector graphics. Only many years later did I learn what it was, and where it fit in the timeline of computing (thanks in part to Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib/Dream Machines" books.) So...who has one? What's become of the remaining infrastructure? I recently used a Windows Plato client to connect to some descendant of the system, but I asssume even the back end was running on modern hardware then, and not old Data General equipment. -j -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 13:35:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:35:11 -0500 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4642145F.3010805@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Caroline wrote: > You have got me hunting here now!, we have an early Olibetti > calculating "thing" an Audit 5 iirc here that did the purchase sales > and wages of a local company (Ordish and Hall) it used straight > magnetic strips though (we have them in a box) Hmm, that does sort of tie in - one of the "storage jackets" for these disks has the text: MLC sales ledger MAILDF Labels and letters NO. ... which sounds like the same sort of application as your magnetic strips hold. The "No." bit is interesting; because the disks are just the "innards" of a floppy, there's no way of labeling the contents. There's a 4-digit number printed on both of the two disks that I have here though - I assume that the intention was to write the disk's number on the jacket and then use the jacket label to describe the disk's contents. How you were guaranteed to never get the same number twice, I don't know - unless the disks were only ever "read only" and supplied by Olivetti, rather than intended to hold user data? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 9 13:43:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 14:43:50 -0400 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/9/07, Jason T wrote: > ... I remembered when my high school > class took a trip down to the U of I at Champaign-Urbana for > "Engineering Open House" and I was sat in front of this monstrous > wooden terminal with beguiling orange vector graphics... I first ran into Plato at Ohio State. There were two or three terminals set up in one of the libraries. > So...who has one? What's become of the remaining infrastructure? I > recently used a Windows Plato client to connect to some descendant of > the system, but I asssume even the back end was running on modern > hardware then, and not old Data General equipment. I don't think there is much, if anything, of the original hardware in friendly hands, but some of the application infrastructure has been reproduced and is accessible through... http://www.cyber1.org/ It's been at least a year, but I have gotten on from a Linux client through a fairly tight firewall. The folks there can help you relive some of your Plato experiences (in my case, it was the graphical chemistry series that I really remember - fractional distillation of mixed hydrocarbons and what not). -ethan From bqt at softjar.se Wed May 9 09:32:32 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:32:32 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) In-Reply-To: <200705091408.l49E7GXI044626@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705091408.l49E7GXI044626@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4641DB80.7080709@softjar.se> To answer a few details in short. PDP-11 licenses (alteast RSX, and I believe all of them) are bound to a specific customer. So they don't transfer along with the hardware. However, DEC did have a license transfer program. It wasn't expensive, and I used it at my end back when DEC still existed. I think it was still possible to transfer licenses after Mentec bought the software and DEC still sold it. What the exact status of this is right now, I don't know. Haven't asked. As for Jay West and Jerome Fine's claims that it's all right just because Mentec haven't set any lawyers on their backs must stand for them. I don't think it's okay, and furthermore, I don't think their claims that it's OK because they think that Mentec knows a lot of things will hold much water if it went to court. But that's just my thoughts. And yes, I do speak with Mentec on business matters from time to time, so I'm not totally unaware of what they do. If Jay West happens to know for a fact that Mentec is aware of the discussions here, and furthermore, have proof that people here are running their software without a license, and choose to not do anything about it, then I think it would be a good thing for him to actually say so, since it actually would strengthen his case against Mentec, if it ever came to that. By playing the "it's not something we're willing to discuss in public" is just idle talk, since it's in fact more supporting of what I'm saying than what he is. But I'll leave it here. No point in arguing. Everyone have to decide for them self. I do notice that noone have yet publicly admitted to violating Mentecs IP rights. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From carol at compurex.com Wed May 9 12:18:03 2007 From: carol at compurex.com (Carol Audlee) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 13:18:03 -0400 Subject: DEC & HP available - a trip to an infrequented collecting spot in Message-ID: <26A4B56679A15C4BA041A64EE91E1091DCA9A4@w2003server.pdc.compurex.com> Hi- I am looking to purchase older DEC computer hardware. Is this something you have available for sale? Appreciate it. Carol Carol Audlee Director of Business Development Compurex Systems 35 Eastman St. S. Easton, MA 02375 508.230.3700 x250 800.426.5499 x250 508.238.8250 fax www.compurex.com AOL IM: CompurexCarol Independent reseller of Cisco/Compaq/DEC/HP/Nortel/Sun computer systems and peripherals since 1987. This message may contain information that is confidential and or protected by law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are herby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or communication of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete the message. Please note that although we will take all commercially reasonable efforts to prevent viruses from being transmitted from our systems, it is the responsibility of the recipient to check for and prevent adverse action by viruses on its own systems. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 13:52:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:52:36 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: >> Actually, they're pretty common from what I have seen, >> but then again, I work with lots of systems that use >> them. Those are Exabyte cartridges - you need to find >> an Exabyte drive. > > Aha... interesting. I'll give local Freecycle a prod and see if anyone > has one nearby that I can borrow. What with Andy's post and another > offer off-list I expect I can attempt a read at some point, anyway! Well, progress - I now have on the desk a "TTi 8510", which I'm hoping is compatible with the tapes I have. Three questions: 1) Is this drive single-ended SCSI or differential? The backplate doesn't hint one way or the other. A poke around a few reseller sites seems to hint that it's a SE drive, but it would be nice to confirm that with someone who has one before I plug it into a machine and toast the SCSI bus :-) 2) I even found a cleaning tape. Is there anything special which needs to be done to use it - or can just insert the cleaning tape into the drive and expect it to do its stuff automatically? 3) Do these drives ever suffer from "roller goo" like QIC drives? i.e. is it sensible for me to whip the cover off and do a visual inspection before even trying the cleaning tape? (That's perhaps a rhetorical question... I normally do visual inspections on stuff before blindly trying to use them. I'm just feeling lazy :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 13:56:29 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:56:29 -0500 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4642195D.9050507@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Caroline wrote: > Perhaps its from one of these an Olivetti BCS2030 see > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=41469 Hmm, could well be! I don't recall ever seeing a system like that at the museum (where I unearthed these disks) - but it's just possible that I've perpetually missed it in storage somewhere! More likely the disks actually came "by mistake" in the box of paper that I found them amongst, though. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 9 14:10:28 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 20:10:28 +0100 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <4642145F.3010805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> <4642145F.3010805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Here is a few pics of the crib sheets for the operator and the cards. It gives you an idea of the use of the magnetic strips, There is one doc at home iirc and will get pics of the machine one day Dave Caroline From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 9 14:11:32 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 20:11:32 +0100 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <4642145F.3010805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> <46420540.5030205@yahoo.co.uk> <4642145F.3010805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: hehe try remembering to give the url www.archivist.info/computers/audit5.html Dave Caroline From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 9 14:19:13 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 12:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) In-Reply-To: <4641DB80.7080709@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at May 09, 2007 04:32:32 PM Message-ID: <200705091919.l49JJDJr023029@onyx.spiritone.com> > To answer a few details in short. > > PDP-11 licenses (alteast RSX, and I believe all of them) are bound to a > specific customer. So they don't transfer along with the hardware. > > However, DEC did have a license transfer program. It wasn't expensive, > and I used it at my end back when DEC still existed. > I think it was still possible to transfer licenses after Mentec bought > the software and DEC still sold it. What the exact status of this is > right now, I don't know. Haven't asked. As I understand it, if you can prove the machine is licensed, and that you have a right to that license you can have it transfered. The trick is proving the machine is licensed as in many/most cases the necessary paperwork has been lost and likely no longer exists. > As for Jay West and Jerome Fine's claims that it's all right just > because Mentec haven't set any lawyers on their backs must stand for > them. I don't think it's okay, and furthermore, I don't think their > claims that it's OK because they think that Mentec knows a lot of things > will hold much water if it went to court. But that's just my thoughts. > And yes, I do speak with Mentec on business matters from time to time, > so I'm not totally unaware of what they do. The claims are just plain foolish and dangerous. They don't do anyone any good, and they could do harm. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 14:26:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 12:26:07 -0700 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4641BDDF.25300.3751CE7E@cclist.sydex.com> You see these things on eBay (there's a large packet of them on eBay Italia as we speak. Meant for the not-otherwise-technically exciting Olivetti BCS 2000 series. Here's some photos of a BCS2035: http://tinyurl.com/yudxyf Late 1970's, I think. Not seen much in the US. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 9 14:33:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:33:56 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 13:26:15 -0500. <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > So...who has one? What's become of the remaining infrastructure? I > recently used a Windows Plato client to connect to some descendant of > the system, but I asssume even the back end was running on modern > hardware then, and not old Data General equipment. The infrastructure wasn't by Data General, it was by Control Data (CDC). UDel had a large PLATO installation. I recently enquired of the people still at UDel what happened to the terminals and I was told that they were all returned to Control Data, who presumably scrapped them. I think there is *one* PLATO terminal in the collection at the Computer History Museum. I'm not aware of anyone who has a CDC Cyber series mainframe other than the CHM, which has one on display in "Visible Storage", but I don't think its the model that UDel had for PLATO (6600 or something like that?). Sadly, the terminals could have been rejuvenated and put back into service had they survived, but Control Data apparently had a very harsh "return for destruction" policy with *all* its equipment, including the peripherals, so very little of it survives. Since I left UDel in 1986 I have not seen a PLATO terminal in person, in anyone's collection, or for sale online *ever*. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed May 9 14:44:13 2007 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:13 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4642248D.2060405@ubanproductions.com> I was thinking about this the other day while mowing the yard (I tend to do random thinking while doing mindless work) and came to the conclusion that the internet today provides most of what Plato provided us those endless years ago, the most notable exception being real time response. Part of my realization was the result of my 10 year old sun having a friend over and the two of them were each on a computer, connected to an online game website where they were interacting with numerous other online gamers... --tom Jason T wrote: > When contemplating spending some fairly serious coin on that IBM > system earlier this week, a friend asked "which systems/machines out > there would you pay 'real' money for?" Since I'm not a Big Iron > collector, and I'm used to spending no more than $10-20 on any given > piece, that's a fair question for me. Maybe a Symbolics Lisp machine. > Maybe an original Sun machine, or even a 2-series. A Xerox Alto. > Historical stuff like that. Then I remembered when my high school > class took a trip down to the U of I at Champaign-Urbana for > "Engineering Open House" and I was sat in front of this monstrous > wooden terminal with beguiling orange vector graphics. Only many > years later did I learn what it was, and where it fit in the timeline > of computing (thanks in part to Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib/Dream > Machines" books.) > > So...who has one? What's become of the remaining infrastructure? I > recently used a Windows Plato client to connect to some descendant of > the system, but I asssume even the back end was running on modern > hardware then, and not old Data General equipment. > > -j > From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 15:05:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:05:59 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk>, <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 13:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > 1) Is this drive single-ended SCSI or differential? The backplate > doesn't hint one way or the other. A poke around a few reseller sites > seems to hint that it's a SE drive, but it would be nice to confirm > that with someone who has one before I plug it into a machine and > toast the SCSI bus :-) If it's like the 8510 that I had, it's SE--note that it's not auto- terminate (you'll need a SCSI terminator). In my eperience, the drive was buggy and TTi itself is defunct. You may have better luck with a genuine Exabyte 8500. The TTi unit isn't quite old enough to suffer from roller goo yet, so it's hard to say if it will eventually. Tell ya what, stick it in a room with one of those electronic air ionizers and get back to us in 6 months.. :) Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 9 15:08:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:08:32 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 12:19:13 -0700. <200705091919.l49JJDJr023029@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200705091919.l49JJDJr023029 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > As I understand it, if you can prove the machine is licensed, and that you > have a right to that license you can have it transfered. The trick is > proving the machine is licensed as in many/most cases the necessary > paperwork has been lost and likely no longer exists. Just out of curiosity, what sort of paperwork would you need to produce? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 9 15:22:48 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 15:22:48 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) References: <200705091919.l49JJDJr023029@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00d001c79277$cfa48e20$6600a8c0@BILLING> Zane wrote... > As I understand it, if you can prove the machine is licensed, and that you > have a right to that license you can have it transfered. The trick is > proving the machine is licensed as in many/most cases the necessary > paperwork has been lost and likely no longer exists. The problem I have with the above is that it infers an absolute - that if.... 1) "you can prove the machine is licensed" and 2) "you {can prove that} you have a right to that license" you can then have it transferred. As a general statement of software licensing that is certainly false. I'm sure I can find 100's of examples of software packages where the above is not true. You have to keep in mind that the above may be true for a specific license, at a specific date/time, depending on the mood of whoever is on the licensor side of the discussion. We need to be careful that the above isn't represented as "this is how it usually works". Johnny wrote... >> As for Jay West and Jerome Fine's claims that it's all right just >> because Mentec haven't set any lawyers on their backs must stand for >> them. That is taking what I was saying out of context. I was speaking in general terms that from a legal standpoint a company that does not enforce it's licenses is in jeopardy of having difficulty enforcing those licenses in the future. That is a simple fact of software law. It does not translate into "it's ok, let's pirate". In the case of Mentec specifically, there is a lot more to the discussion than just that one point. I rather resent you saying that I feel it's OK to pirate software. With regards to Mentec, there are a lot more things involved than just saying "if they don't pursue it, it's ok". What I DID say was that a company that doesn't enforce their licenses consistently will have trouble doing so in the future. I did not make the leap of saying "it is ok to pirate mentec software". That is something you injected into the discussion. > The claims are just plain foolish and dangerous. They don't do anyone any > good, and they could do harm. No, what is just plain foolish and dangerous is how Johnny is taking what I said out of context and ascribing the modifications to me, and posting it publicly as if that was the full substance of my statements. Best regards, Jay West From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 9 15:35:03 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 9 May 2007 13:35:03 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk>, <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1178742903.464230770903f@secure.zipcon.net> TTi finally went belly-up? Quoting Chuck Guzis : > On 9 May 2007 at 13:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > 1) Is this drive single-ended SCSI or differential? The backplate > > doesn't hint one way or the other. A poke around a few reseller sites > > seems to hint that it's a SE drive, but it would be nice to confirm > > that with someone who has one before I plug it into a machine and > > toast the SCSI bus :-) > > If it's like the 8510 that I had, it's SE--note that it's not auto- > terminate (you'll need a SCSI terminator). In my eperience, the > drive was buggy and TTi itself is defunct. You may have better luck > with a genuine Exabyte 8500. > > The TTi unit isn't quite old enough to suffer from roller goo yet, so > it's hard to say if it will eventually. Tell ya what, stick it in a > room with one of those electronic air ionizers and get back to us in > 6 months.. :) > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 9 14:38:54 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:38:54 -0400 Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's Message-ID: <0JHS00G9JH51OZH1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Classic Computers and LCD TV's > From: "dwight elvey" > Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 07:57:48 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > >>From: Allison >> >> > >> >Subject: Classic Computers and LCD TV's >> > From: "Zane H. Healy" >> > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> >Does anyone have any experience plugging something like a C-64 into >> >something like this? >> > >> >http://www.cobyusa.com/_en/prod_item.php?item=TFTV561&pcat=tv&pscat=port_tv&pscat2= >> > >> >I've got a chance to get one, and really the only reason I can see would >>be >> >to hook a classic computer up to it. If I replaced my Commodore 2002 >> >monitor with one of these I'd have room to keep my C64 setup. :^) >> > >> >Zane >> >>I forgot to add I've been on the hunt for a monochrome or color (not >>needed) >>for use instead of the rather old 9" Panasonic I monitor I use. I'm more >>interested in monitor (no tuner) and 12V operation. >> >Hi Allison >It seems like I saw someone else mention the monitors used in head >rest for cars. These mostly use S video or similar signals. >A few months back, I bought two screens, DVD player, two headphones, >video distribution amp, FM to radio and FM to headsets for a little over >$300. >This was on ebay. >Dwight > I'm thinking more like RS170 video and 30-50$.. The rest of that I don't need. ;) Seems anying that installs in the back of the headrest in my Toyota Pickup would be more amusing to the car following me (2 seater cab). My goal is to make some of my CMOS based systems more portable. As their power is low and at least two do video out but even a 12V monitor eats most of the current needed (around 1 amp) making battery operation difficult. Allison From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 9 15:43:38 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 9 May 2007 13:43:38 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk> <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1178743418.4642327acec4c@secure.zipcon.net> I have a TTI tape drive somewhere, it's got 2 8510's in it and an LCD display on it. looking in it before it was standard exabyte 8510's with their special controller board connected to them IIRC. Quoting Jules Richardson : > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Actually, they're pretty common from what I have seen, > >> but then again, I work with lots of systems that use > >> them. Those are Exabyte cartridges - you need to find > >> an Exabyte drive. > > > > Aha... interesting. I'll give local Freecycle a prod and see if anyone > > > has one nearby that I can borrow. What with Andy's post and another > > offer off-list I expect I can attempt a read at some point, anyway! > > Well, progress - I now have on the desk a "TTi 8510", which I'm hoping > is > compatible with the tapes I have. > > Three questions: > > 1) Is this drive single-ended SCSI or differential? The backplate > doesn't hint > one way or the other. A poke around a few reseller sites seems to hint > that > it's a SE drive, but it would be nice to confirm that with someone who > has one > before I plug it into a machine and toast the SCSI bus :-) > > 2) I even found a cleaning tape. Is there anything special which needs > to be > done to use it - or can just insert the cleaning tape into the drive and > > expect it to do its stuff automatically? > > 3) Do these drives ever suffer from "roller goo" like QIC drives? i.e. > is it > sensible for me to whip the cover off and do a visual inspection before > even > trying the cleaning tape? (That's perhaps a rhetorical question... I > normally > do visual inspections on stuff before blindly trying to use them. I'm > just > feeling lazy :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 15:30:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:30:21 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46406287.1040608@yahoo.co.uk>, <46421874.7050007@yahoo.co.uk> <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46422F5D.5050901@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 May 2007 at 13:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> 1) Is this drive single-ended SCSI or differential? The backplate >> doesn't hint one way or the other. A poke around a few reseller sites >> seems to hint that it's a SE drive, but it would be nice to confirm >> that with someone who has one before I plug it into a machine and >> toast the SCSI bus :-) > > If it's like the 8510 that I had, it's SE Thanks... I really don't like SCSI things that don't say what sort of bus they need to be on! > --note that it's not auto- terminate (you'll need a SCSI terminator). Oh, I never use auto-termination if I can help it anyway. That way madness lies (or something :-) I suspect that relying on the hardware to figure the termination out is half the reason a lot of people have so many problems with SCSI - that or using sub-standard cables... > In my eperience, the drive was buggy Any recollection as to what sort of bugs? I don't need it to write any data, but I would rather it faithfully reproduced the data on the tapes* (rather than giving junk whilst appearing to work) *Although if they are in something like uncompressed tar then it'll be obvious whether it works or not. > and TTi itself is defunct. This is a vintage computing list - we're somewhat used to defunct around here! ;) > You may have better luck with a genuine Exabyte 8500. Well I'll see how it goes - doesn't hurt to try I suppose, providing the drive doesn't start spooling tape out of the air vents. OK, you convinced me. I'm pulling the lid and doing a visual check before anything else... > The TTi unit isn't quite old enough to suffer from roller goo yet I've only ever seen it on QIC drives, to be honest, not other tape transport technologies. Is it definitely an age-related thing (i.e. it'll hit *all* drives eventually, rather than being something related to the specific type of rubber used on the QIC drives)? cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 9 15:33:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:33:34 -0500 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <4641BDDF.25300.3751CE7E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> <4641BDDF.25300.3751CE7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4642301E.9070104@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You see these things on eBay (there's a large packet of them on eBay > Italia as we speak. Meant for the not-otherwise-technically exciting > Olivetti BCS 2000 series. Here's some photos of a BCS2035: > > http://tinyurl.com/yudxyf Hmm, that's a nice shade of blue, though! Such colourful casing's pretty rare for that sort of timeframe. We *definitely* don't have one of those, I would remember that. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 15:55:02 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:55:02 -0300 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <06cb01c7927c$fbada650$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the > information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the > N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. Please, put it on the web. Or send me and I'll put in www.tabajara-labs.com.br/techref From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 16:05:06 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 18:05:06 -0300 Subject: Brazilian collector troubles. Was:Re: 8mm data cartridges References: <200705081629.19240.pat@computer-refuge.org><040701c791c4$063b8510$f0fea8c0@alpha><20070509025442.GB7160@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu><051d01c79208$98088f80$f0fea8c0@alpha> <6C5C93C1-F007-40E3-B0F7-26EE996FC861@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <06d301c7927d$c05ac550$f0fea8c0@alpha> Hi Dave! > International shipping is a big pain in the butt, overall. Customs > garbage, paperwork paperwork paperwork. Most people here avoid it for > that reason. I'm still working up the mental energy to ship you those > chips we talked about. :) I'm not in a hurry, although using the method I told you seems simple enough, I always buy chips from USA getting that via airmail ;o) > Well...I live in Florida, about two miles from the Gulf of Mexico...We > have some good beaches here too. BUT it seems you have the most > beautiful women in the world. I'd say that's a pretty big point in > Brasil's favor. :-) (first of all, please sorry me if I use any inappropriate terms on this message. Please advise me if I did. Remember english is not my maiden language) The brazilian girls are as beautiful and gorgeous as the american ones, or the japanese ones or the (hmmmm!) german ones. What matters are the "differences". Germans use to come to Brazil to marry black girls (a half-bred between white and black, which is called "mulata"). In Brazil they are very common, but very rare in Germany. So the germans get crazy with the black girls. Brazilians get crazy with the german girls. It is very rare to find a **natural** blonde girl with (beautiful!) blue eyes. And japanese girls are as beautiful! It is just a matter of "rareness" like our hobby!!! The Brazilian TK90X is **the same** computer as the Sinclair ZX Spectrum. Even the case is the same, but with a small (and better!) ROM containing the UDG2 char editor. But I'd love to have a speccy, just because **it is different**. In the same way, TK90X is a very common computer here, but which Speccy collector doesn't want to have one of these? Just because - as always - is DIFFERENT. Our passions are fueled by differences. The capability to have something that is different from usual, rare or expensive. There are lots of fast cars. A friend of mine had a Saveiro (google image for it, is a very small pick-up made in Brazil by VW) which had some 600HP (!!!) and in dragster racing always won against ferraris! No one want to pay R$ 70.000 to have a Saveiro modded for 600HP, but everyone wants a Ferrari that costs R$ 600-700.000. Because it is different. It is rare. It is expensive. The same happens with girls. The same happens with computers :o) So, don't think our girls (and rare computers) are better than yours, ours are just different! :o) Greetings from Brazil Alexandre (Which would love to date an american girl, they are beautiful!) From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 16:33:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:33:02 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <1178742903.464230770903f@secure.zipcon.net> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com>, <1178742903.464230770903f@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <4641DB9E.6702.37C60096@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 13:35, Geoff Reed wrote: > TTi finally went belly-up? Sort of. In the mid 90's, they changed their name to Xtran, then through a takeover that I don't exactly understand, were acquired by Tecmar (or a holding company thereof). Overland then acquired that around 2000. That's as close as I can remember it. I wonder if anyone at Overland would even remember TTi now. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 15:26:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 13:26:28 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4641CC04.17443.37890DEB@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 13:33, Richard wrote: > Sadly, the terminals could have been rejuvenated and put back into > service had they survived, but Control Data apparently had a very > harsh "return for destruction" policy with *all* its equipment, > including the peripherals, so very little of it survives. At one time CDC simply sold intact equipment for its scrap value to the usual dealers. What caused that to stop was the supposedly "scrapped" gear showing up at customer's sites. It dawned on CDC management that their scrap policy was having a negative effect on their bottom line. The word came down that ANY piece of gear leaving CDC was to be rendered to a condition that was unequivocally *scrap*. That meant that CE's spent their time taking sledgehammers to disk drives and reducing whole computer systems to dumpsterloads of mangled junk. Watching this happen was sickening, but I could understand the rationale. My best recollection was that this policy went into effect sometime around 1973-74, but Billy Petit could probably refresh my warped sense of the exact timeline. I wouldn't mind having one of the old plasma display Plato terminals, myself. It'd make a great night light. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 16:44:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:44:25 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46422F5D.5050901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com>, <46422F5D.5050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4641DE49.32003.37D069BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 15:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > Any recollection as to what sort of bugs? I don't need it to write any data, > but I would rather it faithfully reproduced the data on the tapes* (rather > than giving junk whilst appearing to work) My recollection is that there were numerous firmware bugs. We'd received the drive as a sample in order in hope that we'd endorse it as a drive to work with our software. It didn't work as expected, TTi fessed up to some firmware problems and we told them to get in touch with us when they got things ironed out and sent the drive back. Which is better than the trick that Datasonix pulled with its Pereos drive. They sent us a sample to evaluate. It took us about 2 hours to determine that it wasn't ready for prime time and shipped it back (although I probably still have the drivers for it). It was not only slow and unreliable, but it was brain-dead, requiring a driver that was something like 100K (MS-DOS) in size. Datasonix went ahead and told a customer that we'd approved it--and the customer bought 150 of the worthless things before they checked with us. > I've only ever seen it on QIC drives, to be honest, not other tape transport > technologies. Is it definitely an age-related thing (i.e. it'll hit *all* > drives eventually, rather than being something related to the specific type of > rubber used on the QIC drives)? Isn't most of the rubber used in QIC drives just neoprene? To me that says anything using it will eventually have goo problems. How about old printers with neoprene feed rollers? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 9 04:46:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 03:46:16 -0600 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <20070509011649.GA32171@brevard.conman.org> References: <20070508031336.GC18163@brevard.conman.org> <20070509011649.GA32171@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <46419868.7030703@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini once stated: >> Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's >> function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. >> >> Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? > > I might be able to. I think there were a few others on this list that > were interested as well. My email is > -spc (no explicit 6-or-9 bit architecture experience, but plenty with > assembly ... ) Well I better give my email address too. bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 9 16:48:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:48:03 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 13:26:28 -0700. <4641CC04.17443.37890DEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4641CC04.17443.37890DEB at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > My best recollection was that this policy went into effect sometime > around 1973-74, but Billy Petit could probably refresh my warped > sense of the exact timeline. > > I wouldn't mind having one of the old plasma display Plato terminals, > myself. It'd make a great night light. By the time I was using PLATO in 1978, the policy would have been in full force :-(. The plasma terminals were nice, but I also liked the bitmap graphics terminals. For those, with PLATO, you could write code in "micro tutor" or "ututor" which you would load into the terminal and it would execute locally. Some of the best PLATO based games had all the display stuff written in ututor and the networking and game logic stuff was written in tutor and coordinated the different terminals. I never saw the insides of the terminal, but I imagine it was like looking into the inside of an HP 264x terminal -- a bus with cards and so-on, looking more like a PC than a typical terminal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Wed May 9 15:50:23 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:50:23 -0300 Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) Message-ID: <01C79262.A0D655C0@mse-d03> Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:32:32 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: Re: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) >As for Jay West and Jerome Fine's claims that it's all right just because Mentec haven't set any lawyers on their backs must stand for them. Eh? Funny, I don't recall either of them making those claims; in fact I thought they were pretty well saying the opposite, that it's not just simply "all right", and that this whole discussion was about how to get the issue resolved and do it legitimately. Maybe I need new glasses... -------------- >If Jay West happens to ...have proof that people here are running their software without a license, ... then I think it would be a good thing for him to actually say so... Eh again? He said that too? So you're suggesting what? _If_ there are such people and he has "proof" he should broadcast this over the Internet, right alongside the child molester sites? ------------- >I do notice that noone have yet publicly admitted to violating Mentecs IP rights Does this mean that you have proof that some people are? And if so, that they should shout it out over the Internet? Or what _do_ you mean, exactly? ------------ >No point in arguing. Agreed, but this is CCtalk after all... ;-) m From vrs at msn.com Wed May 9 16:52:20 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 14:52:20 -0700 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp><003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <06cb01c7927c$fbada650$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <062501c79284$528450d0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Alexandre Souza" >> Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the >> information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the >> N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. > > Please, put it on the web. Or send me and I'll put in > www.tabajara-labs.com.br/techref > For the moment, they still seem to be online at www.archivist.info/computers/8202.html. Vince From vrs at msn.com Wed May 9 17:02:37 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 15:02:37 -0700 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp><003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp><06cb01c7927c$fbada650$f0fea8c0@alpha> <062501c79284$528450d0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <063a01c79285$c18f5410$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Vincent Slyngstad" > From: "Alexandre Souza" >>> Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the >>> information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the >>> N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. >> >> Please, put it on the web. Or send me and I'll put in >> www.tabajara-labs.com.br/techref >> > > For the moment, they still seem to be online at > www.archivist.info/computers/8202.html. Just to be clear, though, they aren't mine, so you'll still want to get Dave's permission if you intend to redistribute them. Vince From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 9 17:04:02 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:04:02 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Software (Was: Mentec) References: <01C79262.A0D655C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <00ab01c79285$f6ea62d0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Johnny wrote.... >>No point in arguing. To which MH replied... > Agreed, but this is CCtalk after all... ;-) Correct. But I do feel obliged to point out that I have a bit less tolerance for the *complete* off-topicness that existed here not too long ago and will not allow that level of noise to return to the list. CCtalk or no ;) Jay From shumaker at att.net Wed May 9 17:16:09 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:16:09 -0700 Subject: Olibetti jacketless floppies... In-Reply-To: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46420233.5020805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200705092216.l49MGMbc053828@keith.ezwind.net> Yes Those were used in a series of Olivetti "Word Processors" - basically smart typewriters - in 81-82 timeframe. They allowed you to save typed documents complete with embedded formatting to the disk for later printing/editing. Low end models stored what was typed. IIRC, the high end model has a small fluorescent character display of some.. 20 characters that would allow you to scroll through the doc without actually printing it. At 10:17 AM 5/9/2007, you wrote: >Rather an odd find today, tucked away in a box of printer paper: A >pair of "Olivetti Minidisks". The flexible disks are around 2" in >diameter, but curiously have no jacket whatsoever - just a cardboard >sleeve to protect them when not in use. > >I've never come across these before; any idea what system(s) they're >for? Were they something cheap and cheerful for some sort of word >processor machine? > >cheers > >Jules From go at ao.com Wed May 9 17:25:09 2007 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:25:09 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46424A45.1040100@ao.com> I managed to snag one of the plasma terminal modules (not the entire terminal - just the display guts with rear-projection screen) MANY years ago from Godbout. After acquiring it, I spend several weeks tracking down documentation and managed to obtain the manuals for the electrical and logic hookup, so "some day" I'm going to build me a terminal... >From recollection, I believe the display unit module was manufactured by a division of Corning. I'll dig up the docs and refresh my memory if anyone is interested. The module is about 12x12x8 inches, built mostly as a "square donut" with a recessed hole in the back where the rear-projection slide / reel machine would be placed. It's basically a 512x512 bit memory and is addressed digitally with a fairly simple parallel interface. What's kept me from powering it up is that it takes about four different (and some strange) voltages, one of which is about 180vdc for the plasma supply. Didn't want to power up until I had time to build supplies that conform to the specific requirements for slew and current limit. Didn't want "bad things" to happen on first power up. While a student programmer at Oregon State University MANY MANY years ago, I was involved in a project (never completed) that was to hook one or two of the terminals to our time-sharing system. Seemed to recall the "serial interface" level of the plato terminal required something like 18 bit "characters" sent TO the unit, with 12 bit "characters" coming FROM the unit. Was going to require some major work to force these through our 8 bit asynchronous frontend system. The "powers that be" decided it was too much effort and abandoned the project. -Gary From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 9 17:42:37 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:42:37 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 15:25:09 -0700. <46424A45.1040100@ao.com> Message-ID: In article <46424A45.1040100 at ao.com>, Gary Oliver writes: > I managed to snag one of the plasma terminal modules (not the entire > terminal - just the display guts with rear-projection screen) MANY years > ago from Godbout. After acquiring it, I spend several weeks tracking > down documentation and managed to obtain the manuals for the electrical > and logic hookup, so "some day" I'm going to build me a terminal... Any chance these can get scanned and uploaded to bitsavers? > [...] Seemed to recall > the "serial interface" level of the plato terminal required something > like 18 bit "characters" sent TO the unit, with 12 bit "characters" > coming FROM the unit. [...] Did the CDC machines use 6-bit characters in its raw form? I suspect that the PLATO stuff ganged up multiple CDC hardware characters. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 9 17:53:27 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 18:53:27 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <4641356B.7090206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Thanks to all for the offer of help. I did refer a couple group members to him and we'll see what happens. The "tinker-toys" reference reminds me of a line from Young Frankenstein...but I digress. On 5/8/07 10:43 PM, "woodelf" wrote: > Richard A. Cini wrote: >> Yes, odd indeed. It was like drinking from a fire hose last night. Anyway, >> the theory goes that the entire genome is coded in base triplets which >> encode only 64 proteins (6-bits). >> >> This "emulation" problem has been gnawing at him for over 10 years and he >> figures that now since the genome is fully mapped (although functions are >> still unknown), he can do some good. There has been lots of research, but >> any testing or whatever is still performed on live tissue. Why not emulate >> it? >> >> I didn't take down his entire curriculum vitae, but he's an EE that got into >> medicine (podiatry) and has a side interest in genetics (I guess). Hey, I >> read Scientific American, too, and I having a passing interest, but I'm not >> a man of medicine. >> >> Apparently he read a paper in which this guy in Japan emulated a cell's >> function in silicon. Why not scale it up is his thought. >> >> Anyway, can someone talk 6-bit architecture to this guy? > > I could talk only as hobby type project, but for computer hardware what > is needed? Other what is EE? I don't think it is too hard to understand. > You don't need medicine for hardware - just think tinker-toys since the > basic level is still atomic structures. > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 9 17:59:01 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 18:59:01 -0400 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I looked there originally but they don't seem to offer the sound board at this point. They have a few parts, but that's it. No manuals or schematics that I can see, and no "support" link. On 5/9/07 7:50 AM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > On Tue, 8 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> All: >> >> I?ve done a bit of searching for this but can?t locate it. Does anyone >> have a scannable copy of the schematic for the Mockingboard sound board for >> the Apple II? > > The folks at GSE Reactive have revived the Mockingboard as a product. One > presumes they have the schematic available: > > http://www.gse-reactive.com/ > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 18:11:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 16:11:03 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4641F297.18790.381FBA6A@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 16:42, Richard wrote: > Did the CDC machines use 6-bit characters in its raw form? I suspect > that the PLATO stuff ganged up multiple CDC hardware characters. Yup. 6 bit display code (10 characters per CM word). Later, 12 bit codes were used to handle such niceties as lower case. (There were actually a couple of competing representational systems for the extended character set). A PP channel/word was 12 bit; PPUs had an 18 bit accumulator, however. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 9 18:43:39 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 18:43:39 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <4641CC04.17443.37890DEB@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <4641CC04.17443.37890DEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46425CAB.9010105@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Watching this happen was sickening, but I could understand the > rationale. I can't. Why didn't they just resell the units? Couldn't they have gotten more than one sale from the same piece of hardware? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 9 19:01:28 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 9 May 2007 17:01:28 -0700 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1178755288.464260d8c28fb@secure.zipcon.net> bill garber? at www.garberstreet.com used to have a GIF of the mockingboard schematics available on his site. you might want to see if you can contact him and see if he still has the image. Quoting "Richard A. Cini" : > I looked there originally but they don't seem to offer the sound board > at > this point. They have a few parts, but that's it. No manuals or > schematics > that I can see, and no "support" link. > > > On 5/9/07 7:50 AM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > > > On Tue, 8 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > > >> All: > >> > >> I?ve done a bit of searching for this but can?t locate it. Does > anyone > >> have a scannable copy of the schematic for the Mockingboard sound > board for > >> the Apple II? > > > > The folks at GSE Reactive have revived the Mockingboard as a product. > One > > presumes they have the schematic available: > > > > http://www.gse-reactive.com/ > > > > > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 9 19:07:15 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: from Richard at "May 9, 7 03:48:03 pm" Message-ID: <200705100007.l4A07FA5015950@floodgap.com> > The plasma terminals were nice, but I also liked the bitmap graphics > terminals. For those, with PLATO, you could write code in "micro > tutor" or "ututor" which you would load into the terminal and it would > execute locally. Some of the best PLATO based games had all the > display stuff written in ututor and the networking and game logic > stuff was written in tutor and coordinated the different terminals. What was that, a mini-programming language? Was it the internal machine language of the terminal itself (being fairly ignorant of the architecture), or a microcode, or ... ? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Good day for heavy drinking. Start spiking the office water cooler. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 19:11:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 17:11:04 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <46425CAB.9010105@oldskool.org> References: , <46425CAB.9010105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <464200A8.15368.3856AB49@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2007 at 18:43, Jim Leonard wrote: > I can't. Why didn't they just resell the units? Couldn't they have > gotten more than one sale from the same piece of hardware? I can think of a couple of good reasons. First, stuff that got scrapped was old (discontinued) product. What would be the point of selling an obsolete 6603 (Bryant vertical disk drive) when you could sell the same customer a much newer and faster 808 drive? Does GM want to sell you a 1975 Chevette if they can sell you a 2007 Cobalt just as easily? Second, much of the equipment was leased, not purchased. Why make it possible for a customer to purchase an old piece of equipment when you can lease a nice new unit to him? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 18:34:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 00:34:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <20070508201209.C48012@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 8, 7 08:14:03 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 8 May 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Mmmmm.... wet string. > > You might need to change the wetting agent to handle colder climates. Mercury ? -tony From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 9 19:29:03 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 20:29:03 -0400 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: <1178755288.464260d8c28fb@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: Geoff: I don't suppose you have an email for him? His Web site has absolutely no contact information on it other than his physical address. He has an FTP site, but no MB information that I can see. Rich On 5/9/07 8:01 PM, "Geoff Reed" wrote: > www.garberstreet.com Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From us21090 at yahoo.com Wed May 9 19:37:29 2007 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. Message-ID: <869379.80385.qm@web30802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Lots of good suggestions-- Thank you. And many are correct- what to keep depends on what I wish to do with 'em. Sounds like a familiar topic here! I leaning toward a rarer representative/useful machine- A packed II, I guess. I need to determine which cards will work in it and then what maxing it out means in a practical sense. That is, understanding the associated limitations (memory, speed, languages, etc.) I like the idea of a serial card (as a hope to interface with the current world), SCSI (to save on floppy wear and tear), etc, etc. Thanks again. Scott ----- Original Message ---- From: Scott Austin To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, May 6, 2007 4:58:39 PM Subject: Freecycle stash of Apples found. All, About a month ago I picked a nice stash from a freecycler wishing to clean out. The summary list: Partial Apple II, II+, IIe and lots of h/w accessories and software. The fuller list is at the end of this entry. I'm not a big collector (I have a Obtronix Apple Replica and Kim-1 (another 6502 SBC)). But I thought I'd piece together a nice representative Apple 2 and sell off the rest. I haven't tested anything yet. Question 1: Which to keep: II, II+, or IIe? I need to review Apple system hardware history, but I'd figure the IIe has the most capability, but the II is more significant. Question 2: Which accessories are significant to keep (you know, but hate to say it: "VERY R at RE!!!")? Some things may be rare, but I doubt I'd use them. For example, the Switch-A-Slot (see http://tinyurl.com/2m8b3e ) Thanks for any helpful suggestions! Scott Fuller lengthier list (my notes are shoddy in places) ***Systems*** Apple II MN/SN: A2A0016/A2S1-61847 * Manufacture Date (corner of mobo): 7928 * Missing Power supply * Missing Cover (aaargh!!) Apple II+ MN/SN: A2S1016/A2S2-102594 * Ram Card (CSE/KS??) * Disk ][ Interface card * Apple IIe MN/SN: A2S2064/A2S2-D45-055F * Disk ][ Interface card * Mouse interface * Mockingboard * Parallel Card - Precision S/W * RAM Works II ***Other Hardware*** Apple Disk ][ A2M0003 (Qty 3 older style, Qty 1 newer) Transware Accelerator Joystick Koala Pad Numeric Keypad IIe A2M2003 Synch Printer Interface card IRQ Manager - Berkeley Softworks Switch-A-Slot - South Calif. Research Group IEEE-488 Card MPC Peripherals AP-S10 SUP'RMOD VHF Converter Interactive Structres A/D Modem - Applied Engineering Datalink Floppy Drive Controller for IIe 3.5" Drive Disk ][ Interface Card CMS SCSI II Apple Super Serial Card II Apple IIe 80 Col/64K Memory Expansion Sequential Systems Ram80 Silentype Printer A2M0032 Hardrive in enclosure (I didn't open to get model, size) Apple Monitor (I didn't note the model) Commodore Monitor (I didn't note the model) ***Software*** Copy II Plus DOS 3.3 Basics, System Manual MousePaint ProDOS Start Smith's Adventure Construction Set Apple Fortran Apple Pascal GEOS - includes GEOFile, GEOCalc,... Merlin Pro Macro Assembler IIe, IIc No Slot Clock more (if I remember correctly) ***Software on Cassette*** Mastermind Apple Lis'ner, Apple talker RamTest Forte' Music Dynacomp - Poker Party, Teacher's Pet, Games Pack Renumber/Append, Alignment Test Tone MicroUsers Software Exchange (Baltimore) - UDraw, Music Box Apple - Phone List, Brian's Theme Apple - Hopalong Cassidy, Lemonade Apple - Penny Arcade, Finance 1 Speakeasy Bulls & Bears Avalon MicroComp Game - Computer Baseball Strategy ***Books*** A Guide to Programming in AppleSoft (2nd Ed) Apple II Basic Manual, Ref Manual DOS Manual (DOS3.3, I think) SuperSerial Card AppleSoft Basic Programming Reference Manual Apple Machine Language (Don and Kurt Inman) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed May 9 19:41:28 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 20:41:28 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> Allison wrote: >> >> On 5/8/07, Allison wrote: >> >>> The RQDX1/2 are the same board and mostly interchageable depending on >>> firmware rev. It's a Quad width board. >>> >> What are the essential differences between an RQDX1 and RQDX2? >> AFAICR, the RQDX1 doesn't pass grant below it so it *must* be the last >> board on the bus, but the RQDX2 doesn't have that limitation; and, the >> RQDX2, I think, knows about one or two more drives than the RQDX1. a) >> is that correct? and b) is that all? >> >> >> -ethan >> > > They looks the same but the handle has a different rev. The real differences > are bug fixes. Essentially the RQDX2 is a bugfixed RQDX1 with later firmware > that is aware of a larger (at that time) assortment of drives. In the real > world of MSPC controllers RQDX3 is most desireable and RQDX1 the least. > > FYI: some flavors of RQDX1/2 didn't pass interrupt grant and MUST be the last > card in the chain. > > > > The one piece I haven't figured out from this discussion yet, is... Is the Pro/350 identical to an RQDX1, RQDX2, or RQDX3 ? From the discussion, I'd presume 1 or 2. Another Q, does the entire PDP-11 based PRO series all use the same MFM drive controller and have the same drive size limitations, etc ? I have a PRO380 that came w/o a hard drive... I have some MFM hard drives... so would be good to know 'all about it' before I being playing (when I can get to it :-( ). On a side note, anyone got POS or other OS diskette images for the PRO ? Thanks, -- Curt From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 9 20:07:21 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 9 May 2007 18:07:21 -0700 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1178759241.464270493c4b1@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting "Richard A. Cini" : > Geoff: > > I don't suppose you have an email for him? His Web site has absolutely > no > contact information on it other than his physical address. He has an > FTP > site, but no MB information that I can see. > > Rich > > the email address listed on the page http://mailgate.dada.net/comp/comp.sys.apple2/msg26586.html willy46pa @ comcast DOT net it's form 2004, but it's the best i have. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 9 20:03:03 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 21:03:03 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On 5/9/07, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > The one piece I haven't figured out from this discussion yet, is... > > Is the Pro/350 identical to an RQDX1, RQDX2, or RQDX3 ? > > From the discussion, I'd presume 1 or 2. That seems likely. The issue at hand, of course, is the low-level format. I do not think the Pro controller is format-compatible with the RQDX3, but it might be with the RQDX1/2, from what I'm reading in this thread. > Another Q, does the entire PDP-11 based PRO series all use the same > MFM drive controller and have the same drive size limitations, etc ? AFAIK, there was only ever one model of Pro MFM controller, which shipped with the Pro/350 and the Pro/380. The Pro/325 shipped floppy-only and I think had a weaker PSU than the Pro/350, so, presumably, you could replace/upgrade the PSU or power a hard drive from an external PSU. > I have a PRO380 that came w/o a hard drive... I have some MFM hard > drives... so would be good to know 'all about it' before I being playing > (when I can get to it :-( ). Indeed. I have some Pro stuff I'd love to be able to get to - been on the pile for a long time now. > On a side note, anyone got POS or other OS diskette images for the PRO ? http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ -ethan From mmaginnis at gmail.com Wed May 9 20:03:09 2007 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 19:03:09 -0600 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46426F4D.4040707@gmail.com> Henry (GSE-Reactive's proprietor) can be reached at: hscourbis at gse-reactive.com General support: support at gse-reactive.com - Mike Richard A. Cini wrote: > I looked there originally but they don't seem to offer the sound board at > this point. They have a few parts, but that's it. No manuals or schematics > that I can see, and no "support" link. > > > On 5/9/07 7:50 AM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > >> On Tue, 8 May 2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: >> >>> All: >>> >>> I?ve done a bit of searching for this but can?t locate it. Does anyone >>> have a scannable copy of the schematic for the Mockingboard sound board for >>> the Apple II? >> The folks at GSE Reactive have revived the Mockingboard as a product. One >> presumes they have the schematic available: >> >> http://www.gse-reactive.com/ >> >> > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > > From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed May 9 20:35:03 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:35:03 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> References: <0JHR00I7LYI6DM2J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <46426A38.9080304@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <464276C7.2080308@nktelco.net> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Is the Pro/350 identical to an RQDX1, RQDX2, or RQDX3 ? > > From the discussion, I'd presume 1 or 2. > I think that the Pro350 and Pro380 hard disk controller is uniquely its own. It may share a low level format with the RQDX2, but I don't think it shares all the sophistication of the RQDX2 or the limitations of drive compatibility. I have an RD32 that I just formatted with an RQDX3 last week. I am going to get my Pro380 out and see what happens. I will probably do this with RT11 (although I will definitely feel guilty about it.) I have to make up some patch cables for the monitor and keyboard first. I just got a NEC Multisync that can do 15.75kHz. -chuck From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 9 20:50:19 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:50:19 -0400 Subject: Old version of Excel for the Mac needed Message-ID: All: I?m trying to convert some old Mac Excel files I found from college which I think are Excel version 1 files. I have Office 4 for the Mac that I run in Basilisk (under System 7.5.3), but it can?t open the files I have. So, I fired up Mini vMac Plus (with System 7) and tried to run Excel but I get error ?605 which I think is ?memory full? (or insufficient memory). The Mini vMac Plus configuration has 4mb of RAM (with about 3mb free), which should be enough, but I guess not. So, I was wondering if someone has a copy of a slightly later version of Excel (later than 1.0 but before 4.5.2) that can run on a IIci (in Basilisk) that one would be willing to make a DSK/HFV image of? Alternatively, if someone had a copy of the ROM for the Mac SE, I could try that version of Mini vMac. Thanks in advance. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 9 21:23:19 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 03:23:19 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk><46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <011c01c792aa$2e248770$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> USB?! USB?! :-) Urgh... SCSI, please... > > USB: Plug in, install drivers, play. More like: a) first find a machine that actually HAS USB ports, b) try to find drivers, c) give up because i) drivers don't exist, ii) if they do they're so buggy as to be unusable.... USB = a mind bogglingly *CRAP* solution looking for a problem - aka "*USELESS* SERIAL BODGE". > SCSI: Plug in, fiddle with terminators, play with cables, replace >cables, replace terminators, replace host adapter card, replace >terminators again, try with terminators on and off, try daisychaining >in various combinations, give up, go home. I had similar problems initially because I simply didn't understand SCSI/had some badly behaved early hard drives. Since I learnt how SCSI works I've had not one single problem; it all works automagically. > You're not as new as I am - I don't even HAVE an 8" drive.... Anyway, to the point of this email. If you can arrange for collection from Birmingham I have a pair of 8" drives you can have (they're far too heavy/bulky to post). TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 9 21:42:31 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 03:42:31 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk><46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <012d01c792ac$dbc5ec00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....But USB has been flaky and an incompatibility nightmare. (The >latter being exactly what hardware makers want, of course, because >it sells *new* hardware.) Amen to that. The biggest problem I've had, outside of (the *VAST* majority of) USB drivers which were so buggy as to cause my machine to BSOD as soon as I tried to use the device, is that every time you change/upgrade your OS you need to wait for the hardware manufacturer to release updated drivers....in most cases I've seen these "updated" drivers provide just the bare minimum of functionality in order to "persuade" you to buy a newer device. HP are a prime example, the 64-bit drivers for my printer/scanner/copier only allow the use of the unit as a printer....and a monochrome, text only one at that! :-( > And, quite aside from that, SCSI is far more backwards-compatible.... >....SCSI goes back to the '80s - and, what's more, it's *compatible* all >the way back to the '80s.... Quite. The only compatibility problems I've ever had with SCSI were caused by a couple of 5.25" full height hard drives which refuse to work if *ANYTHING* else is connected to the SCSI bus at the same time (one is a Siemens drive, the other a Fujitsu - I still have them, LOL). Other than that I've always found SCSI to be quite wonderful.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 9 21:52:55 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 23:52:55 -0300 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: Message-ID: <077401c792ae$f628eaf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Talking'bout SCSI, see that http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/ee476/FinalProjects/s2001/sjk26/Default.htm I'll take a nice look how this interfacing was done, there are much to learn here! :oD From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 9 22:02:38 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:02:38 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <013801c792af$ac699080$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....Most of the problems I've had were with USB devices >plugged into the front USB ports - because of the length >(and poor quality) of the cable inside the machine, they'd >work at 12Mbit for a flashdrive, but as soon as you go up to >480Mbit (especially with something like a scanner), the data >just gets mangled. The biggest problem I've found with front mounted ports is that the USB standard is so brain dead that if you plug in a USB2.0 device into such a port, and the cable quality is bad, the damn thing refuses to fall back to USB1 data rates when it fails to communicate at USB2 rates. So you end up with a non-working, "unidentified" device. :-( > 99% of the problems I've had with USB could be traced back to bad >grounding, bad cable or a combination of the two. 100% of the problems I've had with USB stem from the bad design of the interface.... Can't you tell I just *LOVE* USB? ;-) > The main reason I'm using USB is speed.... If that's your main reason for using USB then you really should consider using FireWire instead. I recall reading up on FireWire vs USB a few years ago before I standardised on FireWire. Despite being marginally slower in terms of bit rate, FireWire offers something like 20% more throughput than USB2. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 9 22:06:06 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:06:06 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> >....USB really *is* plug-and-play. LMAO! Maybe in some weird, parallel universe.... TTFN - Pete. From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed May 9 22:08:14 2007 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca Smith) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 23:08:14 -0400 Subject: Info sought In-Reply-To: <200705092114.l49LDPsA051510@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705092114.l49LDPsA051510@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200705092308.14398.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Wednesday 09 May 2007 05:14:11 pm cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: --- Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hey all, > > Anybody familiar with a person called Don Crowther (Maynard, Mass.) > His ebay handle is 'doncrow'. > > I bought an item from him and up to know he did not respond to > 2 inquiries for follow up. > > Thanks, > > Ed I bought a few things from him also recently. No issues at all. -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed May 9 22:16:21 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:16:21 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <4640DB42.6070800@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May8, 7 09:19:14 pm, <4640BF2E.11117.336EE8EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <017401c792b1$95b37020$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Well, if folks don't really care for USB, how about 802.3u? Best idea yet. I use the Ethernet port on my Rio Karma all the time in preference to the lousy USB2 interface also present on the device (I don't even know if the USB port on the ting works!). Now, if I could just get a working replacement 1.8" hard drive for it....bl**dy Hitachi Deathstars (they're the only thing I hate more than USB, LOL). :-( TTFN - Pete. From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 9 22:27:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:27:32 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 17:07:15 -0700. <200705100007.l4A07FA5015950@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <200705100007.l4A07FA5015950 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > > The plasma terminals were nice, but I also liked the bitmap graphics > > terminals. For those, with PLATO, you could write code in "micro > > tutor" or "ututor" which you would load into the terminal and it would > > execute locally. Some of the best PLATO based games had all the > > display stuff written in ututor and the networking and game logic > > stuff was written in tutor and coordinated the different terminals. > > What was that, a mini-programming language? Was it the internal machine > language of the terminal itself (being fairly ignorant of the architecture), > or a microcode, or ... ? In the PLATO system, you wrote software in a language specifically designed for the computer assisted instruction environment of PLATO. The language was called "tutor". A very brief entry about it is on wikipedia: . A book that describes the tutor language in detail is here: . What I remember about "micro tutor" was that it was the same as the tutor language, with restrictions. IIRC, there was a size restriction and the syntax was also restricted in the sense that not all of the tutor commands were supported. I seem to remember that the terminal housed a Z80 inside and somehow the tutor language was being interpreted by the Z80 code or cross-compiled to native Z80 instructions. I never did know which, but I know you could load code directly into the terminal by writing it in ututor and loading it through the main PLATO system. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 9 22:32:46 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 23:32:46 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <013801c792af$ac699080$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <013801c792af$ac699080$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4642925E.9080209@gmail.com> Ensor wrote: > I recall reading up on FireWire vs USB a few years ago before I > standardised on FireWire. Despite being marginally slower in terms of > bit rate, FireWire offers something like 20% more throughput than USB2. Plus, there's always Firewire 800. I have a FW800 hard disk array. It's fast. Very fast. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 9 22:45:58 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:45:58 +0100 Subject: Old version of Excel for the Mac needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0705092045n7a08b24fvba24308fcd6108d5@mail.gmail.com> On 10/05/07, Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I?m trying to convert some old Mac Excel files I found from college > which I think are Excel version 1 files. I have Office 4 for the Mac that I > run in Basilisk (under System 7.5.3), but it can?t open the files I have. > So, I fired up Mini vMac Plus (with System 7) and tried to run Excel but I > get error ?605 which I think is ?memory full? (or insufficient memory). The > Mini vMac Plus configuration has 4mb of RAM (with about 3mb free), which > should be enough, but I guess not. > > So, I was wondering if someone has a copy of a slightly later version of > Excel (later than 1.0 but before 4.5.2) that can run on a IIci (in Basilisk) > that one would be willing to make a DSK/HFV image of? Alternatively, if > someone had a copy of the ROM for the Mac SE, I could try that version of > Mini vMac. You might try asking on LowEndMac's VintageMac mailing list. If anywhere, that's where you're likely to find someone... -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Mob: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From go at ao.com Wed May 9 23:46:30 2007 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:46:30 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4642A3A6.5060602@ao.com> Richard wrote: > Any chance these can get scanned and uploaded to bitsavers? > I thought the same thing after I wrote my message. I would be happy to send the manuals to Al. I need to find them and there are a few boxes to go through. As soon as I locate them I'll contact him and arrange to send. -Gary From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 10 00:36:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 01:36:12 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> On May 8, 2007, at 11:38 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> This is a fantastic way to do things like this...If more software >> were developed in this manner, I'd have torn out a lot less hair by >> now. > > I think this is why I can't stand to work for a company that develops > software (as I had in the past). Too many cut corners, assuming > 100% of > their users are idiots, and trying to develop code by piling more and > more crap onto their old code base. > > I'm really, REALLY glad thatI don't work for that place anymore, and I > work soemwhere that sysadmins actually write code, debug OSes, and are > encouraged to make things clean and reusable, and avoid hacks. > > Oddly enough, since we have the source code to the commercial HSM at > work, I'm pretty sure that we know how it works (and can debug it) > better than the current vendor can (few, if any, of the original > programmers for the code still work on it, as the software has gone > through quite a few corporate acquisitions). > > In fact, I can't rememeber a single bug report that we've submitted in > the past year or so, which we haven't figured out the fix for before > EM^Wthe vendor got back to us with any sort of usable workaround. Yep. That sort of crap is why I abandoned almost all commercial software. It's just not worth fighting with companies whose primary motivation is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 10 00:48:42 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 01:48:42 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> In fact, I can't rememeber a single bug report that we've submitted in >> the past year or so, which we haven't figured out the fix for before >> EM^Wthe vendor got back to us with any sort of usable workaround. > > Yep. That sort of crap is why I abandoned almost all commercial > software. It's just not worth fighting with companies whose primary > motivation is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html Section on "Robin Hood" and "Friar Tuck". Customers getting ignored can lead to interesting happenings. Peace... Sridhar From nicholas.ward at cs.tcd.ie Wed May 9 16:57:21 2007 From: nicholas.ward at cs.tcd.ie (nicholas ward) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 22:57:21 +0100 Subject: imac g3 power supply replacement enquiry from belfast Message-ID: <1A41F208-DC56-4DBE-98E6-C4B51401179E@cs.tcd.ie> Hi Brad, I came across a post you had regarding running an imac with a 24VAC powersupply. I was wondering if you had any success with this? Im in a similar situation and would rather not dump the working DCB if i can supply what it requires. Many thanks for any info you might have, All the best Nicky From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 10 02:00:13 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 03:00:13 -0400 Subject: Info sought In-Reply-To: <19875.88.211.153.27.1178731268.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <19875.88.211.153.27.1178731268.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <7728B21C-7DFF-4E06-A855-482F160BE80A@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Anybody familiar with a person called Don Crowther (Maynard, Mass.) > His ebay handle is 'doncrow'. > > I bought an item from him and up to know he did not respond to > 2 inquiries for follow up. I don't know him personally, but I have purchased several items from him. I've not dealt with him recently, however. He has always treated me well. Perhaps he is having personal difficulties; I suggest giving him some time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 02:25:06 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:25:06 +0100 Subject: DEC Pro380 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <0JHQ00JTCX21RZ9R@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4642C8D2.7050002@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/05/2007 13:44, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/8/07, Allison wrote: >> The RQDX1/2 are the same board and mostly interchageable depending on >> firmware rev. It's a Quad width board. > > What are the essential differences between an RQDX1 and RQDX2? > AFAICR, the RQDX1 doesn't pass grant below it so it *must* be the last > board on the bus, but the RQDX2 doesn't have that limitation; and, the > RQDX2, I think, knows about one or two more drives than the RQDX1. a) > is that correct? and b) is that all? Correct, and as far as I remember, that's about all a user will see, bar some tweaks to the firmware for bug fixes or efficiency. According to the DEC docs, an RQDX1 can only support 2 hard drives whereas an RQDX2 can support 4, but I suspect (never tried) that's a firmware issue. An RQDX2 has one or two resistors and a diode (maybe one or two other bits) that the RQDX1 doesn't have, in the top right corner of the board. Of course if it's a genuine RQDX2 it should also have -YB on the handle. The firmware (from a user, or perhaps I should say OS or CPU, point of view) is in two parts, one part being the MSCP-related stuff and the other part being diagnostics, which are used for things like formatting (there's no formatter program built in but it's the DUP routines that are used by the XXDP formatter), bad block replacement and determining drive sizes etc. The RQDX1/2 have the drive geometry tables, used when the drive is online, in the card firmware not on the drive, and they're used to do a series of sniffer tests when the systems starts, which is why you can't just use any random drive with them. Some versions even do odd checks for RX50s (like flipping the side select to see if it alters the state of Trk00, and checking what happens to READY when you toggle MotorOn). There are four main versions of the firmware for RQDX1/2 and they support different drives: 23-238/239 V7.0 for RQDX1 supports RX50, RD51 23-264/256 V8.0 for RQDX1 reliablity bugfixes 23-042/043 V9.0 for RQDX1 adds RD52 support 23-172/173 V9.0E for RQDX1 bug fixes for reliability 23-178/179 V10.0D RQDX2 adds RD53 support 23-188/189 V10.0E RQDX2 bug fixes I'm fairly sure V10.0 works in an RQDX1 despite being intended for the later revision, because I think one of mine is running like that. IIRC V9.0E also added support for some additional drive makes for the RD52, by altering the sniffer boot. If you change the firmware for a later revision, in some cases the controller will restructure the RCT/FCT tables which are kept on the disk - these are the Replacement and Cacheing Table and the Format Control Table which essentially hold bad block replacement data and some data about the disk type - and then if you revert to older firmware, it won't understand the RCT/FCT and will refuse to put the drive online until it's reformatted. Apart from that, though, the actual formats are the same, or at least interchangeable. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu May 10 03:44:58 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:44:58 +0100 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet In-Reply-To: <063a01c79285$c18f5410$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <06cb01c7927c$fbada650$f0fea8c0@alpha> <062501c79284$528450d0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <063a01c79285$c18f5410$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: On 5/9/07, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Vincent Slyngstad" > > From: "Alexandre Souza" > >>> Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the > >>> information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the > >>> N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. > >> > >> Please, put it on the web. Or send me and I'll put in > >> www.tabajara-labs.com.br/techref > >> > > > > For the moment, they still seem to be online at > > www.archivist.info/computers/8202.html. yes carry on I shall leave them up > > Just to be clear, though, they aren't mine, so you'll still > want to get Dave's permission if you intend to redistribute > them. > > Vince > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 10 04:40:53 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:40:53 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> Ensor wrote: > > >....USB really *is* plug-and-play. > > LMAO! Maybe in some weird, parallel universe.... You plug it in, then you play with it for hours trying to get the darn thing to work. It seems to be the software side that nearly always causes me problems. Even under Linux it seems a total mess and any logfile output isn't particularly helpful in diagnosing problems (and of course under MS Windows you're lucky if you even *get* any logfile output when something goes wrong) My experience so far with USB cameras, mice, webcams, RS232 adapters and CF adapters has been decidedly not good... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 10 05:02:29 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 05:02:29 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <077401c792ae$f628eaf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <077401c792ae$f628eaf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4642EDB5.8000906@yahoo.co.uk> Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Talking'bout SCSI, see that > > http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/ee476/FinalProjects/s2001/sjk26/Default.htm > > > I'll take a nice look how this interfacing was done, there are much > to learn here! :oD Interfacing *to* a SCSI device should be fairly straightforward. It's a bit more complex to make something look like a SCSI device though due to the command set that needs to be supported. I'm not sure what the minimum that needs to be done is (beyond just read / write / inquiry / test-unit-ready / request-sense). Fun project, though. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 10 06:32:20 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 06:32:20 -0500 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070510063033.066f9fd8@mail> At 12:48 AM 5/10/2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html >Section on "Robin Hood" and "Friar Tuck". Customers getting ignored can lead to interesting happenings. It doesn't quite explain how the Moto engineers got those hacks into the Xerox development system, though... As for the story's aside about Windows viruses... don't get me started about spyware. - John From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 10 04:34:19 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:34:19 +0100 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 01:48 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 10 05:10:21 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:10:21 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> , <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1178791821.10123.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 04:40 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ensor wrote: > > > > >....USB really *is* plug-and-play. > > > > LMAO! Maybe in some weird, parallel universe.... > > You plug it in, then you play with it for hours trying to get the darn thing > to work. > > It seems to be the software side that nearly always causes me problems. Even > under Linux it seems a total mess and any logfile output isn't particularly > helpful in diagnosing problems (and of course under MS Windows you're lucky if > you even *get* any logfile output when something goes wrong) > > My experience so far with USB cameras, mice, webcams, RS232 adapters and CF > adapters has been decidedly not good... Sounds like you're just having bad luck. The only USB devices I've entirely failed to get working in Linux have been an el-cheapo DVB-T adaptor and a MOTU Midi Timepiece-type thing (can't remember the exact model). Everything else has worked perfectly, instantly. MIDI interfaces, audio interfaces, GPS receivers, cameras, disk drives, MP3 players, serial ports, parallel ports, and probably some other stuff I can't quite remember just now. The only thing I have had a degree of difficulty with was one GPS module that had a slightly odd serial-to-USB interface inside. It took a couple of minutes to hack up a suitable kernel module for that. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 10 05:11:46 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:11:46 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <012d01c792ac$dbc5ec00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <463F8C7E.30000@philpem.me.uk> <463FA88A.5030106@yahoo.co.uk> <463FC749.5000000@philpem.me.uk> <46403EEB.1080901@yahoo.co.uk> <4640547F.2080005@philpem.me.uk> <012d01c792ac$dbc5ec00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <1178791906.10123.6.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 03:42 +0100, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >....But USB has been flaky and an incompatibility nightmare. (The > >latter being exactly what hardware makers want, of course, because > >it sells *new* hardware.) > > Amen to that. > > The biggest problem I've had, outside of (the *VAST* majority of) USB > drivers which were so buggy as to cause my machine to BSOD as soon as I Ah. BSOD. You must be using Windows, which doesn't support USB. Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 10 07:41:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:41:41 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. >> >> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? I'm seeing the messed-up characters too, and I'm also using a Mozilla browser. In my case, Seamonkey 1.1.1. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu May 10 07:46:03 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 13:46:03 +0100 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. Same here, with Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows 2000 SP4 and Firefox 2.0 on Fedora Core 6. > Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? So either the Docbook source or Docbook->XHTML converter he's using is FUBAR. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 10 07:47:11 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 05:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070510063033.066f9fd8@mail> from John Foust at "May 10, 7 06:32:20 am" Message-ID: <200705101247.l4AClBbP008070@floodgap.com> > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > Section on "Robin Hood" and "Friar Tuck". Customers getting ignored can > > lead to interesting happenings. > > It doesn't quite explain how the Moto engineers got those hacks > into the Xerox development system, though... I was trying to find a CP-V command set to see what it was like to use it, but all I can find on the web are references to this particular hack, or that "CP-V was another Xerox operating system succeeded by CP-6." I assume it was not a "Un*xy thing." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Good day for romance, but try a single person this time. ---------- From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 10 07:45:33 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:45:33 -0300 Subject: Wanted: N8202N datasheet References: <02b201c79198$a141a980$6600a8c0@vrsxp><003d01c79241$4d32e8a0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> <06cb01c7927c$fbada650$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <084201c79301$5f477f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> Thanks! You and Henk each provided scans of data book pages with the >> information I needed. I wasn't able to find a great replacement for the >> N8202, but I settled for an inverter and a couple of 74174. > Please, put it on the web. Or send me and I'll put in > www.tabajara-labs.com.br/techref Ops, wrong link, sorry! http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/eletronica/reftec/ I'll put the scanned pages there tonight! ;o) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 10 07:47:43 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 05:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> from Gordon JC Pearce at "May 10, 7 10:34:19 am" Message-ID: <200705101247.l4AClh92017808@floodgap.com> > > is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. > > > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. It's broken here too, Camino 1.0.4 on OS X 10.4.9. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why did the chicken cross the Moebius strip? To get to the other ... uh ... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 10 08:03:28 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:03:28 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/10/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > > > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > I'm seeing the messed-up characters too, and I'm also using a Mozilla > browser. In my case, Seamonkey 1.1.1. And Firefox 1.5.0.10 (Centos 4.4). So I doubt we are imagining it; the question is, does it look good under _any_ browser? -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 10 08:17:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:17:41 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46431B75.7040000@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm >> using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > Same here, with Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows 2000 SP4 and Firefox 2.0 on > Fedora Core 6. > >> Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? > > > > So either the Docbook source or Docbook->XHTML converter he's using is > FUBAR. I sent an email to Eric Raymond. We'll see what happens. Peace... Sridhar From feedle at feedle.net Thu May 10 08:23:32 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (Chris Sullivan) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 07:23:32 -0600 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <200705101247.l4AClh92017808@floodgap.com> References: <200705101247.l4AClh92017808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <9E203F3F-995B-4A86-A86C-5A53BCAB6EBD@feedle.net> On May 10, 2007, at 6:47 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. >>> >>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html >> >> Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? >> I'm >> using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > It's broken here too, Camino 1.0.4 on OS X 10.4.9. It's worth pointing out that it does this in Safari and Internet Explorer (Mac) as well. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 10 08:49:57 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:49:57 -0400 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> I could post up the source code for the Atari Plato cartridge, Vincent Wu was the coder and he worked directly with CDC on fully understanding how the actual Plato Terminals worked and wrote a pretty impressed compression system to take the 512x512 screens and get them down to 320X192 but also had a zoom feature to allow the Atari to scroll around and view the full 512x512 screen. Also he implemented all of the touchscreen routines to work with the Atari joysticks as well. While this is all 6500 compiler code and specifically for the Atari 800,XL/XE platform, it may offer some insight. Curt Richard wrote: > In article <200705100007.l4A07FA5015950 at floodgap.com>, > Cameron Kaiser writes: > > >>> The plasma terminals were nice, but I also liked the bitmap graphics >>> terminals. For those, with PLATO, you could write code in "micro >>> tutor" or "ututor" which you would load into the terminal and it would >>> execute locally. Some of the best PLATO based games had all the >>> display stuff written in ututor and the networking and game logic >>> stuff was written in tutor and coordinated the different terminals. >>> >> What was that, a mini-programming language? Was it the internal machine >> language of the terminal itself (being fairly ignorant of the architecture), >> or a microcode, or ... ? >> > > In the PLATO system, you wrote software in a language specifically > designed for the computer assisted instruction environment of PLATO. > The language was called "tutor". A very brief entry about it is on > wikipedia: . > > A book that describes the tutor language in detail is here: > . > > What I remember about "micro tutor" was that it was the same as the > tutor language, with restrictions. IIRC, there was a size restriction > and the syntax was also restricted in the sense that not all of the > tutor commands were supported. I seem to remember that the terminal > housed a Z80 inside and somehow the tutor language was being > interpreted by the Z80 code or cross-compiled to native Z80 > instructions. I never did know which, but I know you could load code > directly into the terminal by writing it in ututor and loading it > through the main PLATO system. > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 10 08:53:31 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <200705101359.JAA05855@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? > I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? Over here, with lynx, the page is reported as Charset: iso-8859-1 and I see things like The Meaning of ?Hack? Prev? Appendix? A.? Hacker Folklore ? Next The Meaning of ?Hack? (in case the list mangles that, here it is with ASCII replacements for the odd characters: The Meaning of @Hack@ Prev# Appendix# #.# Hacker Folklore # Next The Meaning of @Hack@ where @ replaces 8859-1 a-circumflex and # replaces A-circumflex.) This is not the usual Windows brokenness that calls for demoroniser (google it for those who don't know it and want to - but be sure to spell it, as I did, with -s- instead of -z-). It's also not the usual UTF-8 issue I've seen; when that strikes, I get two (or occasionally more) non-ASCII characters displayed for each non-ASCII character used by the source. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From marvin at west.net Thu May 10 09:21:31 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 07:21:31 -0700 Subject: Macintosh 128 Message-ID: <46432A6B.17091F69@west.net> Is there any way (besides taking it apart) to find out if my Macintosh 128 is original or if it has been modified/upgraded? It works just fine and has the original Picasso disks and plastic box with it. Thanks! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 09:24:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:24:30 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2007 21:46:30 -0700. <4642A3A6.5060602@ao.com> Message-ID: In article <4642A3A6.5060602 at ao.com>, Gary Oliver writes: > Richard wrote: > > Any chance these can get scanned and uploaded to bitsavers? > > > I thought the same thing after I wrote my message. I would be happy to > send the manuals to Al. I need to find them and there are a few boxes > to go through. As soon as I locate them I'll contact him and arrange to > send. If Al's overloaded, I can scan them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 10 09:57:55 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:57:55 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> References: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I could post up the source code for the Atari Plato cartridge, Vincent > Wu was the coder and he worked directly with CDC on fully > understanding how the actual Plato Terminals worked and wrote a pretty > impressed compression system to take the 512x512 screens and get them > down to 320X192 but also had a zoom feature to allow the Atari to > scroll around and view the full 512x512 screen. Also he > implemented all of the touchscreen routines to work with the Atari > joysticks as well. > > While this is all 6500 compiler code and specifically for the Atari > 800,XL/XE platform, it may offer some insight. When I was attending UIUC from 89-93, the PLATO terminals (the 80's era slanted boxes with the cream sides and the black-ish front) were still in heavy use in the Physics and Chem areas. However, since we were typical undergrads and waited until the last minute to finish the PLATO lessons, the terminals were always crowded, and Loomis Lab was locked up at 8 or so, meaning the terminals ere unavailable after that. During the 90-91 year, I stumbled upon a Commodore 64 software implementation of the base PLATO system, which could connect the servers using the university dialup (333-1100 or something). It was very impressive, as it ran at 2400 bps (tough to do on the C64) and rendered a good 320x200 representation of the 512-512 plasma graphics. It even replicated the orange-ish color of the screens. Sadly, I have not been able to locate the disk here since I left college. I'd love to locate a copy though. I did not know about the Atari cart, but I suspect the C64 version was probably some port of that code, since they shared a common CPU. It may have been a unlicensed port, since I've never seen an actual C64 pot listed anywhere. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 10 10:02:36 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "May 10, 7 09:57:55 am" Message-ID: <200705101502.l4AF2aEm014822@floodgap.com> > During the 90-91 year, I stumbled upon a Commodore 64 software > implementation of the base PLATO system, which could connect the servers > using the university dialup (333-1100 or something). It was very > impressive, as it ran at 2400 bps (tough to do on the C64) and rendered > a good 320x200 representation of the 512-512 plasma graphics. It even > replicated the orange-ish color of the screens. Wow. Now that would be cool. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The computer's running some sort of --- program!!! -- "Terminal", bad TV --- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 10 10:09:11 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: from Richard at "May 9, 7 09:27:32 pm" Message-ID: <200705101509.l4AF9B7t008074@floodgap.com> > > > The plasma terminals were nice, but I also liked the bitmap graphics > > > terminals. For those, with PLATO, you could write code in "micro > > > tutor" or "ututor" which you would load into the terminal and it would > > > execute locally. Some of the best PLATO based games had all the > > > display stuff written in ututor and the networking and game logic > > > stuff was written in tutor and coordinated the different terminals. > > > > What was that, a mini-programming language? Was it the internal machine > > language of the terminal itself (being fairly ignorant of the architecture), > > or a microcode, or ... ? > > In the PLATO system, you wrote software in a language specifically > designed for the computer assisted instruction environment of PLATO. > The language was called "tutor". A very brief entry about it is on > wikipedia: . > > A book that describes the tutor language in detail is here: > . Thanks for those links. The tutor description was fascinating. Alas, it doesn't seem to include the micro tutor limitations, but I'll look around. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'm so tongue-in-cheek I caanth talkh shhraayghth. ------------------------- From silent700 at gmail.com Thu May 10 10:19:59 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:19:59 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> References: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> On 5/10/07, Jim Brain wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > When I was attending UIUC from 89-93, the PLATO terminals (the 80's era > slanted boxes with the cream sides and the black-ish front) were still > in heavy use in the Physics and Chem areas. However, since we were Memory flood! I don't remember those there....but I don't think I had any classes that used them. I just remember them from the Engineering Open House days (which would have been a similar period, probably 88-90.) They could very well have been those boxes rather than the wooden ones, which I've probably seen in pictures and inserted into my memories. Definitely had the orange plasma screens, though. My hangout was 8-English (wonder when the old-school terminals were finally removed? I still remember my uxa.cso.uiuc.edu login, and picking up my greenbar printouts in the mailtray next to the sysadmin's desk down there) and occasionally DCL... They had a couple NeXTs and an Amiga 500 on ethernet! Oh, the mighty speed of Kermit! > During the 90-91 year, I stumbled upon a Commodore 64 software > implementation of the base PLATO system, which could connect the servers > using the university dialup (333-1100 or something). Hmm....was that Winchester or Mossberg? ;) I've never seen the C64 implementation, but that's something worth finding. I know the Atari PLATO cart is pretty rare. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 10:32:37 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:32:37 -0700 Subject: CP-V Message-ID: <46433B15.8070200@bitsavers.org> > I was trying to find a CP-V command set http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sds/sigma/cp-v From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 10:46:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:46:09 -0600 Subject: CP-V In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 May 2007 08:32:37 -0700. <46433B15.8070200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <46433B15.8070200 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > I was trying to find a CP-V command set > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sds/sigma/cp-v I see there are source code listings as PDF files there too. How common is this on bitsavers? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 10:46:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:46:34 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> References: , <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com>, <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> As much fun as playing Airfight at 1200 baud with a plasma touchscreen was back in the 70's, did Plato accomplish anything? I was given to understand that the level of instruction delivered was no better (at best) or considerably worse (at worst) that traditional pedagogical methods. It was an interesting "gee whiz" toy for the time, but did it leave any lasting legacy? I've yet to hear someone say "If it weren't for PLATO, I'd be pushing a mop at the local Wendy's." Cheers, Chuck From wizard at voyager.net Thu May 10 10:46:57 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:46:57 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> , <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 04:40 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ensor wrote: > > > > >....USB really *is* plug-and-play. > > > > LMAO! Maybe in some weird, parallel universe.... > > You plug it in, then you play with it for hours trying to get the darn thing > to work. > > It seems to be the software side that nearly always causes me problems. Even > under Linux it seems a total mess and any logfile output isn't particularly > helpful in diagnosing problems (and of course under MS Windows you're lucky if > you even *get* any logfile output when something goes wrong) > > My experience so far with USB cameras, mice, webcams, RS232 adapters and CF > adapters has been decidedly not good... I have to admit I'm puzzled by this entire exchange. I was trying to remember a problem I've had, so I could add to the list in the spirit of commiseration, but I honestly cannot say that I have ever had a problem with USB connections, compact flash adapters, SCSI connections, or IDE connections, for that matter. I simply use components that are age-similar, and have never had a problem. I don't like the idea of writing a driver for, say, a USB memory stick, but, when I've plugged them in, they have always worked. SOMEBODY wrote them, and that's what counts -- in my opinion. I will admit that I've never (so far) attempted to put a USB port on a CP/M machine, for instance. That would be, as I see it, an awkward usage. What I *HAVE* had problems doing is connecting monitors to video cards. I used to have a Thompson all-purpose (forget the model number) multi-synch monitor. Back then, life was simple. If it had 15 pins, hook up a VGA monitor. If it had 9 pins, hook up the Thompson, at least until I figure out what kind of video it is... and it's handy to be able to boot and run the machine to do that, if it is a video card with which I am not familiar. I have also had problems hooking up the old ST interface hard drives -- some folks, apparently deliberately, mislabeled the pin 1 stripe on drive cables, ensuring the drives were hooked up backwards, if connected by "normal" techs, as opposed to those versed in that manufacturer's quirks. That has a demoralizing effect on the drive. I've got a compact flash card reader, a PCMCIA USB card for laptops without USB built-in, a 3.5 inch diskette drive, several Zip drives, and "el cheapo" memory sticks. I've never had the first problem with any of them. If my current computer didn't already have a 3.5 inch drive, I certainly would not get one, since I have the USB drive. All I need now is a 5.25 inch USB diskette drive and an 8 inch USB diskette drive and Bob's your uncle. I am seriously considering getting a large external USB HD, because I have had such outstanding luck with other USB devices. Their operation might as well be magic for all I know about them, that's true, but, at a certain point, the functionality wins me over. I can always tinker with old equipment, but, for me, the fact that all my USB appliances work on all my machines with USB ports has always been a given. Since I have just blundered into using USB, and the only "technical" information I normally use is to insert the plug in the orientation which puts the least strain on the fingers, it makes me wonder if some folks here -- the ones with the bitter experiences -- might be over-engineering it. Just wondering. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From robert at irrelevant.com Thu May 10 11:11:21 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:11:21 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <077401c792ae$f628eaf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <077401c792ae$f628eaf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <2f806cd70705100911l85c04d5y66f53ff785e93283@mail.gmail.com> On 10/05/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Talking'bout SCSI, see that > http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/ee476/FinalProjects/s2001/sjk26/Default.htm > [microcontroller connecting serial digital camera to scsi zip drive] LOL.. I had one of those Barbie cameras; very low resolution, RS232 only, and a terrible (for an adult!) windows application to drive it... ?69.99 ($140) it cost me, about 1998 or so, when new. ... picked up several from a local bargain store about three years ago at ?4.99 ($10) each and managed to sell on eBay for just a little more.. The last one I failed to get rid of a few months ago on freecycle; ended up giving it to the kids next door. Hasn't digital camera technology come down in price ... From dm561 at torfree.net Thu May 10 10:13:59 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:13:59 -0300 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File Message-ID: <01C792FC.B2831F20@mse-d03> Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:03:28 -0400 From: "Ethan Dicks" Subject: Re: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File > >> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > > > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. And Firefox 1.5.0.10 (Centos 4.4). So I doubt we are imagining it; the question is, does it look good under _any_ browser? -ethan -------------- FWIW, they look fine in Explorer if I select UTF-8 and local pages stay that way, but any new page reverts to Western ISO. m From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 11:16:48 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:16:48 -0700 Subject: CP-V Message-ID: <46434570.1080101@bitsavers.org> > I see there are source code listings as PDF files there too. > How common is this on bitsavers? If I have code as paper listings, I'll put them under pdf From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 11:22:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:22:08 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk>, <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <4642E440.328.6F337F@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 11:46, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Their operation might as well be magic for all I know about them, > that's true, but, at a certain point, the functionality wins me over. I > can always tinker with old equipment, but, for me, the fact that all my > USB appliances work on all my machines with USB ports has always been a > given. Since I have just blundered into using USB, and the only > "technical" information I normally use is to insert the plug in the > orientation which puts the least strain on the fingers, it makes me > wonder if some folks here -- the ones with the bitter experiences -- > might be over-engineering it. Just wondering. Many of the problems associated with USB can be attributed solely to faulty driver software. After bumbling around with USB support as an add-on for Win95 (horrible), the geniuses at Redmond really did have a good idea--layer the driver implementation into the baseline drivers and device-specific "minidrivers" that would work with either NT or Win98. Unfortunately, this was carried out with the usual competence (or lack of it) that we associate with Windows software. If memory serves, USB came rather late to Linux, most of the effort being spearheaded by an on-again, off-again effort out of Spain(?). In any case, it was a retrofit into the existing system device driver structure. Simple USB devices, such as floppy drives and CF card readers have worked just fine for me. On the other hand, I have a box of USB peripherals which don't operate in any fashion and whose manufacturers have long been out of business (or who disavow ever having built the damned things). One of the big issues that I have with wholesale USB peripheral implementation is the need for additional boxes (hubs) in my already cluttered work area. Cables, cables everywhere with lots of little dodads to get buried under the flotsam of paper and books. That being said, I've got an HP scanner with both USB and SCSI interfaces--and I use it in SCSI mode. Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 10 11:26:47 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:26:47 -0400 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com>, <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> It was jaw dropping incredible stuff like this, that got me into the field. Funny thing now is, I'm so jaded by technology, so little gets me excited anymore with modern pc's and technology, but gimme a Vax or an Atari or the like, stuff is far more interesting and exciting. I think it has to do with how challenging it is to have these systems do what modern systems do transparently with little to no intervention. I always find it funny to see a modern day computer "engineer" -- ask them the mem port and irq of com1 on a PC and usually you'll get a stuttering response, blank stare or the typical - "well plug and play will set it up" --- technology has become so far removed from the user and even the tech, that many have no idea how the h*ll the things even function on the most rudimentary level. I love early "gee whiz" stuff, far more fun!!! Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > As much fun as playing Airfight at 1200 baud with a plasma > touchscreen was back in the 70's, did Plato accomplish anything? I > was given to understand that the level of instruction delivered was > no better (at best) or considerably worse (at worst) that traditional > pedagogical methods. > > It was an interesting "gee whiz" toy for the time, but did it leave > any lasting legacy? I've yet to hear someone say "If it weren't for > PLATO, I'd be pushing a mop at the local Wendy's." > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 10 11:47:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:47:02 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: On 5/10/07, Warren Wolfe wrote: > I have to admit I'm puzzled by this entire exchange. I was trying > to remember a problem I've had, so I could add to the list in the spirit > of commiseration, but I honestly cannot say that I have ever had a > problem with USB connections... I simply use components that are > age-similar, and have never had a problem. Therein is the answer to a lot of USB *and* SCSI complaints - trying to use an ACB-4000 and MFM drives on a "modern" machine (no way to query drive geometry), or, for one USB case I can speak to, attempting to attach a Toshiba "In-Touch" (PMD-C004) display to *anything* newer than Windows 95 (no, really... that's what its drivers are for) doesn't go well. As most of us have experienced, it doesn't take much to break "age-similar". Yes, I would expect that if I go out *today* and buy any USB disk or printer and plug it into any PC bought *today* running an OS I can buy or download *today*, it should "just work". The problem creeps in, say, when I want to run a 4-year-old USB 1.0 disk enclosure on a week-old machine that only has USB 2.0 ports. USB claims to be "universal", but even that's been a moving target from 1.0 to 1.1 to 2.0. Most things do manage to achieve interoperability, but it only takes one or two devices to throw a wrench in the works. One thing I _really_ don't like about USB is that you are at the mercy of the writers of the drivers. RS-232-attached or parallel-port-attached or even SCSI-attached devices can be poked and proded with a variety of tools (hardware and software) and can be made to work in situations where they _don't_ work out of the box. I don't think the same level of flexibility exists with USB. Since I would like to be able to talk to this PMD-C004, I'd like to be proven wrong. I am, by necessity, using more and more USB devices every day. I still insist on being able to hook "legacy devices" to "legacy ports". I expect to freeze in time somewhat when there is just no way to fit a real serial port or real parallel port to a "modern" machine. USB works fine for the masses who just want to hook scanners and printers and memory card readers to their machines; I do things that "the public" don't find interesting, so my standards are higher. -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 10 12:22:52 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:22:52 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> References: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464354EC.4060309@jbrain.com> Jason T wrote: > Memory flood! I don't remember those there....but I don't think I had > any classes that used them. I just remember them from the Engineering > Open House days (which would have been a similar period, probably > 88-90.) They could very well have been those boxes rather than the > wooden ones, which I've probably seen in pictures and inserted into my > memories. Definitely had the orange plasma screens, though. I remember some of the wooden ones. University High (the high school affiliated with UIUC) had some wooden ones in their lab. Uni High was a destination for chess matches in high school (I sucked at chess, but the local C64 heads went, so it was a cheap way to meet them each week or two). Having only seen PC-XTs and home computers, those slanted wooden beasts looked so foreign to me in 87-89. Little did I know I would be using them in 90. > > My hangout was 8-English (wonder when the old-school terminals were > finally removed? I still remember my uxa.cso.uiuc.edu login, and > picking up my greenbar printouts in the mailtray next to the > sysadmin's desk down there) and occasionally DCL... They had a couple > NeXTs and an Amiga 500 on ethernet! Oh, the mighty speed of Kermit! jlb31348 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu. Google (via Dejanews) has most of my old postings under that ID. The accounts are coded. 3 initials, the year of creation (3rd year of offering student IDs, I believe), and a 4 digit number. As I recall, the student accounts ran on some multi-68K CPU unix box that was sitting in the basement of the Illini Union. I saw the behemoth while using the X terminals in that lab. Years before Vista eye candy, I remember folks writing elaborate scripts so they could have all their X goodies (xv, xeyes, etc.) come up on any X terminal anywhere on campus, whether it be the IBM RTs, the Sparcs, or the RS6000 units in DCL. I, sadly, was never that motivated, so I just xterm'ed and started things by hand. I think the box was a Sequent, but I'm not sure, memory is already fading. To get (somewhat) back on topic, I knew there were lots of discussion groups in the PLATO system, but UIUC was on NFSNet, and the dorm labs got IP before I arrived. After someone tipped me off to USENET, PLATO was relegated to schoolwork only. Oh, but 333-1100 coupled with Novaterm 8.X (or maybe 9.1) and my trusty 2400 bps Zoom modem saved my bacon all through the CS classes. Being able to code machine problems (MPs) from the room was pure nirvana. Novaterm's soft-80 mode and reliable 2400bpx routines made it a platform of choice. It sounds crazy, but I used that 64 for all my college work until late 1992. PLATO on the 64, MPs via Novaterm, and term papers via GEOS and my OKI180 printer. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 12:31:52 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 18:31:52 +0100 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46435708.2060204@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/05/2007 13:41, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html >> >> Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm >> using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. >> >> Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? > > I'm seeing the messed-up characters too, and I'm also using a Mozilla > browser. In my case, Seamonkey 1.1.1. I see broken UTF-8 characters too, using Firefox 2.0.0.3 or 1.5.0.11 under Windows XP SP2. I see the same crap with Internet Explorer 7 (7.0.5730.11). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From feedle at feedle.net Thu May 10 12:38:48 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:38:48 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> References: , <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com>, <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <464358A8.8040007@feedle.net> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I always find it funny to see a modern day computer "engineer" -- ask > them the mem port and irq of com1 on a PC and usually you'll get a > stuttering response, blank stare or the typical - "well plug and play > will set it up" --- technology has become so far removed from the > user and even the tech, that many have no idea how the h*ll the things > even function on the most rudimentary level. While I would agree with the overall statement, hardware EIA-232 ports themselves are an anacronism along with IRQs and memory ports. As an example ad absurtum, if my COM port is hanging off of a USB dongle, what is it's IRQ and memory port? Bet you wouldn't know either. However, I can bet the same modern-day engineers who couldn't answer that question could step you through the entire USB negotiation session, in some cases down to the bits on the wire. Knowledge is relevant to the era in which it is acquired. "Eras", for purposes of computer science, are measured in single digit years... maybe a decade at the most. Hardware IRQs and memory port locations are about as relevant today as vacuum-tube electronics was in the early microcomputer era, when knowing what IRQ your serial card was on really was important.. but knowing how to diagnose a blown vacuum tube wasn't. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 12:39:28 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 18:39:28 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/05/2007 17:47, Ethan Dicks wrote: > As most of us have experienced, it doesn't take much to break > "age-similar". Yes, I would expect that if I go out *today* and buy > any USB disk or printer and plug it into any PC bought *today* running > an OS I can buy or download *today*, it should "just work". Hmm... but the whole world's not a PC (nor even a Vax :-)) A few weeks ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a Mac, which doesn't even see them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From silent700 at gmail.com Thu May 10 13:03:51 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 13:03:51 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <464354EC.4060309@jbrain.com> References: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> <464354EC.4060309@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730705101103tf3bcb2dg48362dbdcd1eae7f@mail.gmail.com> On 5/10/07, Jim Brain wrote: > number. As I recall, the student accounts ran on some multi-68K CPU > unix box that was sitting in the basement of the Illini Union. I saw Yep, it was a Sequent, I remember some boxes (cardboard ones) in the 8-English lab from Sequent. Upgrade parts, maybe. I thought the machine itself was there in that lab, but there's no way to recall what I saw there. I was jht56010, so you're date code holds there (since my account was generated in 91.) I don't think I discovered usenet until I left UIUC (in '92, unfortunately,) or at least I didn't post from there. > Vista eye candy, I remember folks writing elaborate scripts so they > could have all their X goodies (xv, xeyes, etc.) come up on any X > terminal anywhere on campus, whether it be the IBM RTs, the Sparcs, or > the RS6000 units in DCL. I, sadly, was never that motivated, so I just Now that stuff I don't recall, probably because I wasn't in any CS classes then. I remember IBM PS/2s with telnet in the dorm labs (PAR and FAR open all night!) and everyone competed for the Mac SE (or SE/30s?) to use windowing and play SCEPTRE :) > of choice. It sounds crazy, but I used that 64 for all my college work > until late 1992. PLATO on the 64, MPs via Novaterm, and term papers via > GEOS and my OKI180 printer. My HS graduation gift was an Amiga 500 (geek!) so I got to bring that down there with me. All I could do was dial in to a shell - not sure if AmigaTCP/SLIP was around then, and if so I doubt UIUC was providing that service. -j From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 10 13:13:12 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:13:12 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 5/10/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 10/05/2007 17:47, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > As most of us have experienced, it doesn't take much to break > > "age-similar". Yes, I would expect that if I go out *today* and buy > > any USB disk or printer and plug it into any PC bought *today* running > > an OS I can buy or download *today*, it should "just work". > > Hmm... but the whole world's not a PC In terms of aggregate market-share and hardware vendors' planning, it might as well be. :-( > (nor even a Vax :-)) I learned C on an 11/750 running 4.1BSD... "all the world's a VAX" really means something to me. It was, um, a secondary education when I went from C programming on UNIX on a VAX to embedded C on a 68000 with our own home-rolled clib. Fortunately, I had plenty of M68K assembler experience to make heads-or-tails of what was going on. > A few weeks > ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a > variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a > Mac, which doesn't even see them. Yeah... I have yet to take the plunge and buy any USB serial adapters for just that reason - for me, they have to work with Windows (laptops), Linux, _and_ Mac OS X, or I don't care if they are $2 or $10 each... they aren't going to cut it. I'm faced with getting a new company-paid laptop later this year. I'm now trying to decide between "whatever hardware is being provided by internal IT" and replacing Vista with RedHat Linux, or taking the plunge and going with some form of Macbook. My job is 100% Linux, so I'd _rather_ be running it on my desk, but given the stuff that's available new as a "standard laptop", since they aren't hardware compatible with what was available even 2 years ago (no PCMCIA/Cardbus, no serial, no parallel, no PATA, no PS/2...), I might as well get a Mac (I've already asked if I can get my old laptop back - no answer yet). I haven't done any software dev on a Mac, but at least with Linux, I know I can write device drivers from scratch (having done it for VMS and Ultrix, I don't find the process too scary, just fiddly). -ethan From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu May 10 13:28:04 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:28:04 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070510141727.04f88818@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: >On 10/05/2007 17:47, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>As most of us have experienced, it doesn't take much to break >>"age-similar". Yes, I would expect that if I go out *today* and buy >>any USB disk or printer and plug it into any PC bought *today* running >>an OS I can buy or download *today*, it should "just work". > >Hmm... but the whole world's not a PC (nor even a Vax :-)) A few weeks >ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a >variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a >Mac, which doesn't even see them. Yes, but is that actually USB's fault, or the device, or the Mac? If Apple didn't fully follow the standard for USB stuff, then it'd be the Mac's fault. If the device manufacturer didn't follow a USB specification in making the device, but "it works on a PC so close enough" -- that's not USB's fault either - it's whomever made the device. I have a USB->Serial device that works fine in Linux, AFAIK on a Mac (but never tested - there are company drivers, tho) and under Win2K & XP... except running DriveWire for my CoCo. In that one, single application, XP will occasionally bluescreen right in the middle of my CoCo booting NitrOS-9. Ungh. I'm *guessing* it's a driver issue. I'm entertaining suggestions on a new USB->Serial dongle, as that's half of what I bought the darned thing for... :-/ Just because USB isn't universal, may not actually be USB's fault... ;-) However, I don't think it's a buss either, so it's still mis-named. :-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From spc at conman.org Thu May 10 13:35:54 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:35:54 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20070510183554.GA17514@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Philip Pemberton once stated: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > >using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > Same here, with Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows 2000 SP4 and Firefox 2.0 on > Fedora Core 6. > > >Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? > > > > So either the Docbook source or Docbook->XHTML converter he's using is > FUBAR. It's actually the HTTP protocol in this case. If you select UTF-8 encoding (under Firefox, "View -> Character Encodings -> UTF-8" you'll see the page correctly. Internally, the page is set to UTF-8 (within the processing tag) but Firefox *has* to accept the character set that Apache sends (in this case, ISO-8859-1, which is the Apache default by the way) and interpret it that way. So even though the document itself specifies UTF-8, becasue the way conflicting character set information is resolved, the HTTP sever (in this case, Apache) wins (wierd, I know, but that's the way it is). -spc (So there you go) From spc at conman.org Thu May 10 13:37:03 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:37:03 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <46431305.8000403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070510183703.GB17514@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Ethan Dicks once stated: > > So I doubt we are imagining it; the question is, does it look good > under _any_ browser? Nope (see other message I sent for the reason why). -spc (Welcome to i18n ... ) From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu May 10 14:11:54 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another IBM 5110 system Message-ID: <20070510191154.26703.qmail@web51603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I just picked-up an IBM 5110 in Las Vegas. It cost me a few hundred, but a nice system (no printer). Unfortunately, I had the leave the giant floppy drive chassis there - too big for the car - I think it weighs around 150 lbs. I will drive out there again in a few weeks (with a bigger vehicle) to bring it back to southern California. Steve. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 14:21:27 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 12:21:27 -0700 Subject: USB drivers Message-ID: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> > A few weeks > ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a > variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a > Mac, which doesn't even see them. Did they 'just work' or was a driver downloaded off the net to make them work? The curse of Windows is every vendor doing things their own way, and the need for thousands of incompatible drivers. You can extend this to USB drivers as well. A USB async adapter can be implemented a bunch of different ways, going as far back as Anchorchips devices that squirted code onto the adapter, up through the current reduced cost devices that barely offer any tech docs on how they work. Vendors really only care about Windows support, and grudgingly give out info to driver writers (or they have to reverse engineer the hardware to do it). They also want to lock you into their device, so they have no interest in common drivers. Getting back to the original topic, as long as the protocol for the floppy adapter is documented so that people can write USB drivers for it for other platforms, it should not be an issue. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 14:41:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 13:41:26 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 May 2007 08:46:34 -0700. <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > It was an interesting "gee whiz" toy for the time, but did it leave > any lasting legacy? It was the genesis of: - computer based/assisted/automated instruction - interactive chat - messaging areas - online gaming - massive multiplayer gaming - graphical gaming So yeah, it was tremendously influential. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 10 14:53:00 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:53:00 -0500 Subject: The Plato system References: Message-ID: <007601c7933c$d2c0f3d0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... (re: Plato)... > It was the genesis of: > - computer based/assisted/automated instruction Eh, computers were doing this before Plato. The HP2000 for example was quite big in CAI. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 15:07:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 13:07:10 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <464318FE.23726.13D366A@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 13:41, Richard wrote: > It was the genesis of: > - computer based/assisted/automated instruction > - interactive chat > - messaging areas > - online gaming > - massive multiplayer gaming > - graphical gaming > > So yeah, it was tremendously influential. My question mostly related not to the recreational use, but rather to the first of your points--the instructional value. I seem to recall that the original plasma terminals were freakishly expensive and that time on the system was no bargain either. I remember that Plato was Bill Norris' darling and there was a push to get it used anyway it could be used. In particular, I remember that some internals subjects at CDC were programmed as Plato courses (e.g. "Everything you never wanted to know about 6RM") but that any useful level of detail simply wasn't there. I thought about all of the time and money that went into the rather anemic courseware and figured that it would have been cheaper for management to give Jitze Couperous a sheaf of plane tickets and put him up at 4 star hotels to give hands-on insruction on the subject. I'll rephrase my question as "Was the CAI delivered by PLATO worth the investment?" Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 15:16:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:16:08 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 May 2007 14:53:00 -0500. <007601c7933c$d2c0f3d0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <007601c7933c$d2c0f3d0$6600a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote... (re: Plato)... > > It was the genesis of: > > - computer based/assisted/automated instruction > Eh, computers were doing this before Plato. The HP2000 for example was quite > big in CAI. s/the genesis/a major influence/ then. Either way, I don't think you can deny the impact of PLATO. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 10 15:43:33 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:43:33 -0300 Subject: The Plato system References: , <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com>, <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com><4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <0a1101c79344$09992880$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I always find it funny to see a modern day computer "engineer" -- ask > them the mem port and irq of com1 on a PC and usually you'll get a > stuttering response, blank stare or the typical - "well plug and play > will set it up" --- technology has become so far removed from the user > and even the tech, that many have no idea how the h*ll the things even > function on the most rudimentary level. Maybe that's why we do love this stuff! Greetings Alexandre PS: FB3? Will it happen? :) From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 10 15:45:56 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:45:56 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705101103tf3bcb2dg48362dbdcd1eae7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <46432305.9080307@atarimuseum.com> <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com> <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> <464354EC.4060309@jbrain.com> <51ea77730705101103tf3bcb2dg48362dbdcd1eae7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46438484.5020608@jbrain.com> Jason T wrote: > On 5/10/07, Jim Brain wrote: > > Now that stuff I don't recall, probably because I wasn't in any CS > classes then. I remember IBM PS/2s with telnet in the dorm labs (PAR > and FAR open all night!) and everyone competed for the Mac SE (or > SE/30s?) to use windowing and play SCEPTRE :) More off-topic-ness. I 'admin'ed one of those labs in 1991-93, the one at Allen Hall. They were open 24/7. The PS/2 units were model 30s, as I recall, and barely ran Win 3.0. The Mac SEs were far more useful, but they had to have that crazy boot disk in the top drive, so each machine was fitted with the Mac "bra", as we called it, to keep the disk from fully ejecting. However, by the time I got there, the little foam insert in the bra that lets the disk partially eject but pushes it back in was getting worn out. Thus, I got called many times after people would reboot due to sad-Mac... Initially, I would use a key to unlock the bra padlock, use a hammer from the cabinet to nudge the bra off, put the disk back in, and re-install. However, I determined in a bit that you could just give the front of the monitor on the SE a good "whack" with your hand and the disk would pop back in. It worked with no ill effects, but it would greatly surprise the computer users when I would see a sad-Mac, go up, thump it hard, and go on my way :-) > > My HS graduation gift was an Amiga 500 (geek!) so I got to bring that > down there with me. All I could do was dial in to a shell - not sure > if AmigaTCP/SLIP was around then, and if so I doubt UIUC was providing > that service. Again, trying to stay on topic, since I seem to be dragging it off... The UIUC data line was fronted by some traffic-cop thing that would dump you into NovaNET at the prompt if you typed plato or somesuch. Likewise, getting on the main network required a different keyword at the initial prompt. I used to script all of that, but I'd have to dig up the old NT (that's Novaterm, not New Technology) disks to be sure. NT was not out yet, but MS came to campus and did a dog and pony show for us about the benefits of it. In 1990, we ditched the 80186 3COM comservers (or whatever they were called) for OS/2 1.3, which was better, but the lack of a good PM (which came in 2.0, as I recall) made admining the environment tough. Truly, though, those PLATO systems were considered dinosaurs when I was there. CSO had 486s and such in the CSO labs, and the plasma screen made them a bit eerie. I always wonder why UIUC didn't switch to soft PLATO on the PCs. The Macs has MACTCP, and the PCs ran clarkson packet drivers and such. (Funnily, even though NCSA (at UIUC) begat NCSA Telnet, I think Clarkson improved it, and thedorm labs would install Clarkson Telnet in lieu of NCSA. Probably NCSA cared less. Sadly, as for PLATO technical information, I was only a user. The heyday for them had come and gone by the time I arrived at UIUC, and many of the units were in rough shape by then. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 16:01:50 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:01:50 -0700 Subject: How much of the FOG collection is archived? Message-ID: <4643883E.9040307@bitsavers.org> A few weeks ago, CHM received a donation of the entire floppy collection of the First Osborne Group (FOG). It is literally thousands of 5" floppies, and I am trying to get a feeling for what of the collection has already been archived. I believe NODE51 has the CPM portion on line, but FOG morphed into a general users group including support for the DOS world through the 80's. It will be a LOT of work to read the collection, so I'm trying to get a feeling for how to prioritize what's there. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 10 16:08:56 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:08:56 -0700 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90705101408g58ef55c0t8abaf84af9a5376e@mail.gmail.com> On 5/8/07, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > If you assume that USB can transfer 1MByte per second (in USB2 High Speed > mode, i.e. 12Mbit/sec), then you can transfer 128Kbytes in 125 milliseconds. > Ten seconds data transfer time on top of the 80 seconds for data transfer - > roughly a minute and a half best case. You're probably looking at a maximum of > two minutes worst case - an eighth of the time it'd take to do the same thing > over RS232. > That's 1MB/sec in Full-Speed mode. High-Speed mode would be more like 20-30MB/sec, if the device can supply data that fast. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 16:16:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:16:07 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 May 2007 13:07:10 -0700. <464318FE.23726.13D366A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <464318FE.23726.13D366A at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 10 May 2007 at 13:41, Richard wrote: > > > It was the genesis of: > > - computer based/assisted/automated instruction > > - interactive chat > > - messaging areas > > - online gaming > > - massive multiplayer gaming > > - graphical gaming > > > > So yeah, it was tremendously influential. > > My question mostly related not to the recreational use, but rather to > the first of your points--the instructional value. The messaging areas and chat were part of the instructional environment. You could take the lessons, but you could also participate in the discussions with the instructor and other students. When taking a lesson, you could request real-time chat from the TA in order to assist you with the lesson. I know this because I took courses that leveraged PLATO. UDel had the entire setup: the mainframe and the terminal rooms scattered around the campus. They even had musical tone generators attached to the terminals in the music building and you could use them (with headphones, to prevent you from annoying other people in the room) for musical instruction. > I seem to > recall that the original plasma terminals were freakishly expensive > and that time on the system was no bargain either. The institutions that owned their own Cyber mainframe obviously thought it was worth the cost. UDel and UIUC were two of the big installations, IIRC. > I remember that Plato was Bill Norris' darling and there was a push > to get it used anyway it could be used. In particular, I remember > that some internals subjects at CDC were programmed as Plato courses > (e.g. "Everything you never wanted to know about 6RM") but that any > useful level of detail simply wasn't there. That sort of critique could be applied to any computer-based learning, IMO. At least with PLATO, when done right, you could chat with the TA or instructor to get more information. Of course this had to be done during "office hours", just like with a physical instructor. > I'll rephrase my question as "Was the CAI delivered by PLATO worth > the investment?" I think UDel's answer would be yes. It was very heavily used. Many times the PLATO terminal rooms were full and there were several of them around campus. They were used for instruction in many subject areas, so it wasn't the pet darling of one department. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 10 16:25:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:25:31 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <4641DE49.32003.37D069BF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4641C737.5035.37764D76@cclist.sydex.com>, <46422F5D.5050901@yahoo.co.uk> <4641DE49.32003.37D069BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46438DCB.50501@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 May 2007 at 15:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Any recollection as to what sort of bugs? I don't need it to write any data, >> but I would rather it faithfully reproduced the data on the tapes* (rather >> than giving junk whilst appearing to work) > > My recollection is that there were numerous firmware bugs. We'd > received the drive as a sample in order in hope that we'd endorse it > as a drive to work with our software. It didn't work as expected, > TTi fessed up to some firmware problems and we told them to get in > touch with us when they got things ironed out and sent the drive > back. Aha... fair enough. As someone else mentioned, it does turn out to be an Exabyte 8500 drive internally, just with a TTi SCSI interface at the back which hooks both to the drive and the front-panel electronics. Unfortunately it didn't want to accept the cleaning tape (just spat it straight back out again) - I was worried there was a fault with the tape transport, but it's accepted one of the 8mm cartridges just fine. This first tape at least is in tar format, and is happily extracting via a Linux box as I speak (type). Too early to say whether the contents are actually anything interesting yet, though. (Lots of source code so far, including odds and ends for the Natsemi 32xxx family, so I'm hopeful it's not just a backup of some secretary's desktop!) >> I've only ever seen it on QIC drives, to be honest, not other tape transport >> technologies. Is it definitely an age-related thing (i.e. it'll hit *all* >> drives eventually, rather than being something related to the specific type of >> rubber used on the QIC drives)? > > Isn't most of the rubber used in QIC drives just neoprene? Might be; I really don't know. I'm sure all rubber decays eventually - either crumbling or turning to mush. It just seems to do it with *some* QIC drives long before they've otherwise reached end of useful life, but it's not something I've personally come across elsewhere. If the material is just something "stock" then it would suggest that pretty much anything's prone to the same goo problem. Oh, and as someone (possibly it was you) said, these drives are slooooow! I'm glad there's only two tapes... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 16:36:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:36:57 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <46432E09.5495.18F67A6@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 13:41, Richard wrote: > It was the genesis of: > - computer based/assisted/automated instruction > - interactive chat > - messaging areas > - online gaming > - massive multiplayer gaming > - graphical gaming I remembered going to NCC (golly, what year? It was the one where IBM was demoing its ink-droplet printing) and walking by the CDC booth and noticing some gal flogging PLATO, with not a lot of interest. I asked if I could take a look at the (plasma) terminal and she said, sure. I brought up Airfight and within about 30 secconds had a gaggle of people piled up about three deep behind me. As in a lot of things, CDC management held out for the more noble goal of "education" and completely dismissed the gaming aspect as being important. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 10 16:40:36 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:40:36 -0400 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730705091126t2f22eb2bya3414fd18f3d35a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200705101740.37124.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 09 May 2007 14:26, Jason T wrote: > Then I remembered when my high school class took a trip down to the U of I > at Champaign-Urbana for "Engineering Open House" and I was sat in front of > this monstrous wooden terminal with beguiling orange vector graphics. Only > many years later did I learn what it was, and where it fit in the timeline > of computing (thanks in part to Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib/Dream > Machines" books.) > > So...who has one? What's become of the remaining infrastructure? I > recently used a Windows Plato client to connect to some descendant of > the system, but I asssume even the back end was running on modern > hardware then, and not old Data General equipment. > > -j Last time I saw one of those was way back in 1978, when I went with a guy I worked with to Reading (PA) Area Community College, and watched this thing draw its screen at an agonizingly slow rate over a 300 baud connection. :-) It was pretty nifty, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu May 10 16:46:38 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 22:46:38 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90705101408g58ef55c0t8abaf84af9a5376e@mail.gmail.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <1e1fc3e90705101408g58ef55c0t8abaf84af9a5376e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464392BE.6020002@philpem.me.uk> Glen Slick wrote: > That's 1MB/sec in Full-Speed mode. High-Speed mode would be more like > 20-30MB/sec, if the device can supply data that fast. True. I keep getting High Speed and Full Speed mixed up... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From brad at heeltoe.com Thu May 10 16:48:48 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:48:48 -0400 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 May 2007 09:22:08 PDT." <4642E440.328.6F337F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200705102148.l4ALmmW6000669@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >If memory serves, USB came rather late to Linux, most of the effort >being spearheaded by an on-again, off-again effort out of Spain(?). >In any case, it was a retrofit into the existing system device driver >structure. I don't like to quibble, but I don't think that's a fair characterization of USB in linux. There are a small group of very devoted people behind it, and the work they have done is quite reasonable. The support in the 2.6 kernels has worked well for me, but I don't use a lot of different devices. The support is *very* active and on-going. Monitor the linux-usb mailing list and you'll see a *lot* of traffic. The usb code in linux is (my opinion) well structured these days. And there is support for usb client devices as well as multiple different hosts and layered hosts. The URB model seems to be holding up well. But other's may have a different opinion. Linux (and other operating systems) have struggled with how to best support the "plug and play" model. Some methods work better than others. Certainly all have evolved over time. They are all at best a "work in progress" (again, my opinion). -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting +1-781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 16:51:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:51:39 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4643317B.9243.19CDE5C@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 15:16, Richard wrote: > The messaging areas and chat were part of the instructional > environment. You could take the lessons, but you could also > participate in the discussions with the instructor and other students. If I were seated at an Intercom 200 terminal years before Plato, I could chat with any other Intercom user (at least under SCOPE). Chat was nothing new at all and certainly wasn't unique to CDC. Speaking of Intercom--did any of said terminal setups (console, reader/punch and printer) ever escape the smelter? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 10 17:05:56 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:05:56 -0500 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> References: , <464332F3.9010100@jbrain.com>, <51ea77730705100819x5dc6e181xb6632da4231befdb@mail.gmail.com> <4642DBEA.14145.4EA00B@cclist.sydex.com> <464347C7.7030700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <46439744.8030406@oldskool.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > It was jaw dropping incredible stuff like this, that got me into the > field. Funny thing now is, I'm so jaded by technology, so little gets > me excited anymore with modern pc's and technology, but gimme a Vax or > an Atari or the like, stuff is far more interesting and exciting. I > think it has to do with how challenging it is to have these systems do > what modern systems do transparently with little to no intervention. This is the heart of my hobby. Twenty years ago I loved trying to coax more than one simultaneous voice out of my PC speaker... played with real-time 3D... etc. Even in the 1990s, I dorked with VGA trying to get more than 256 simultaneous colors out of it (with some success, actually). It's why, 25+ years later, my favorite thing to do is program assembler on my 5150. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 17:08:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:08:11 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46438DCB.50501@yahoo.co.uk> References: <14296.3691.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4641DE49.32003.37D069BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <46438DCB.50501@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4643355B.24881.1AC009B@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 16:25, Jules Richardson wrote: > Oh, and as someone (possibly it was you) said, these drives are slooooow! I'm > glad there's only two tapes... "Slow" is a relative term. Back in the day, they weren't too bad, compared to, oh, say, floppytape (QIC 40). Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 17:17:27 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 23:17:27 +0100 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/05/2007 20:21, Al Kossow wrote: > > A few weeks > > ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a > > variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a > > Mac, which doesn't even see them. > > Did they 'just work' or was a driver downloaded off the net to make them > work? Under Windows XP, "just worked". IIRC for older versions, there's a driver. Haven't found one that works for Mac OS X yet. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 17:14:32 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 23:14:32 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/05/2007 19:13, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I learned C on an 11/750 running 4.1BSD... "all the world's a VAX" > really means something to me. It was, um, a secondary education when > I went from C programming on UNIX on a VAX to embedded C on a 68000 > with our own home-rolled clib. Fortunately, I had plenty of M68K > assembler experience to make heads-or-tails of what was going on. :-) > Yeah... I have yet to take the plunge and buy any USB serial adapters > for just that reason - for me, they have to work with Windows > (laptops), Linux, _and_ Mac OS X, or I don't care if they are $2 or > $10 each... they aren't going to cut it. If I find one that does, i'll let you know. > I'm faced with getting a new company-paid laptop later this year. I'm > now trying to decide between "whatever hardware is being provided by > internal IT" and replacing Vista with RedHat Linux, or taking the > plunge and going with some form of Macbook. My job is 100% Linux, so > I'd _rather_ be running it on my desk, but given the stuff that's > available new as a "standard laptop", since they aren't hardware > compatible with what was available even 2 years ago (no > PCMCIA/Cardbus, no serial, no parallel, no PATA, no PS/2...), I might > as well get a Mac (I've already asked if I can get my old laptop back > - no answer yet). This is getting way off-topic now, but FWIW a couple of our systems guys, including one who's *really* into Linux, have Macbooks. In fact that's how I know about some of the USB stuff not working. Just to temp you in the other direction, one recently got a new dual-core Toshiba laptop, which performs very well, and which I mention because it has a real RS232 port on the back. OTOH, my USB-to-serial works fine on my Vaio, and even sends breaks correctly (which I need for some of our switches). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 10 17:39:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:39:08 -0600 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 May 2007 14:51:39 -0700. <4643317B.9243.19CDE5C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4643317B.9243.19CDE5C at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 10 May 2007 at 15:16, Richard wrote: > > > The messaging areas and chat were part of the instructional > > environment. You could take the lessons, but you could also > > participate in the discussions with the instructor and other students. > > If I were seated at an Intercom 200 terminal years before Plato, I > could chat with any other Intercom user (at least under SCOPE). Chat > was nothing new at all and certainly wasn't unique to CDC. Whatever. I'm not claiming that PLATO invented these things but considering I never heard of an Intercom 200 terminal or SCOPE, but I had actively used PLATO in a large heterogeneous computing environment and PLATO was the only system to have chat and discussion forums, I'd consider it to have had a significant impact. Judging by the PLATO fan sites online I'd have to say that I'm not alone, either. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 10 17:48:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 23:48:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wirelist for HP9000/200 RS232 cable Message-ID: I am currently fooling about with some HP9000/200 series machines, specifically an HP9816 and an HP9817. The serial ports of these machines are on 50 pin microribbon connectors (like SCSI connectors (!)). They're RS232 levels (1488 anmd 1489 interface chips). I believe the HP98626 RS232 interface card for these machines has the same connector. Needless to say I need to make up adapter cables to DB25 connectors. I assume HP sold said cables at one point, but I can't find the wirelists in any of the obvious manuals on hpmuseum.net (OK, if it's hidden is, say, a printer manual, I'll not have spotted it, but I've read just about every manual for the machines, the interface cards, and the BASIC). I have pinouts for the microribbon connector, so I can work out where most of the wires should go, but there are a few signals that seem to be non-standard (they're driven by I/O port lines inside the machine so what they actually do is software-determined. They're probably not important, but in the interests of compatability I'd like to wire them as HP would have wired them So does anyone have : 1) Wirelists of the original HP cables. I assume there was one going to a DB25-P (male), wires as a DTQ, that would be the most useful to me, but _any_ would be a start 2) The original cables that they can 'buzz out' and produce a wirelist from. 3) A 'spare' cable thet they can sell Thanks in advance for any help -tony From fryers at gmail.com Thu May 10 18:03:08 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 00:03:08 +0100 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: All, On 10/05/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 10/05/2007 20:21, Al Kossow wrote: > > > A few weeks > > > ago I bought a few USB serial port adapters, and they work fine on a > > > variety of PCs running various versions of Windows. Not, though, on a > > > Mac, which doesn't even see them. > > > > Did they 'just work' or was a driver downloaded off the net to make them > > work? > > Under Windows XP, "just worked". IIRC for older versions, there's a > driver. Haven't found one that works for Mac OS X yet. A lot depends on the devices and how the OS handles the drivers. I have two USB to serial adapters that work perfectly under OpenBSD. When I initially got them they were not supported by the version I was running, but a bit of googling showed that support was new and with an upgrade - they just worked. They are recognised as; Prolific Technology Inc. USB-Serial Controller, rev 1.10/3.00 One of the things I find frustraiting is the lack of information that Windows seems to provide about what devices it sees and the logical arangement of the devices within the computer... However this is drifting further off topic.... Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 10 18:19:55 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> > > Did they 'just work' or was a driver downloaded off the net to make them > > work? > > Under Windows XP, "just worked". IIRC for older versions, there's a > driver. Haven't found one that works for Mac OS X yet. the phrase "just worked" has two different meanings. It can mean "worked", or it can mean "barely worked" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From john at guntersville.net Thu May 10 18:22:24 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 18:22:24 -0500 Subject: How much of the FOG collection is archived? In-Reply-To: <4643883E.9040307@bitsavers.org> References: <4643883E.9040307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4643A930.1040602@guntersville.net> Al Kossow wrote: > A few weeks ago, CHM received a donation of the entire floppy > collection of the First Osborne Group (FOG). It is literally > thousands of 5" floppies, and I am trying to get a feeling for > what of the collection has already been archived. I believe > NODE51 has the CPM portion on line, but FOG morphed into a general > users group including support for the DOS world through the 80's. > > It will be a LOT of work to read the collection, so I'm trying > to get a feeling for how to prioritize what's there. > I have many of the FOG osborne library on line at http://www.guntersville,net/osborne/library I have a big bunch of FOG/CPM disks from the Chicago FOG group that haven't made it on line yet. John From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 18:46:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:46:50 -0700 Subject: The Plato system In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <46434C7A.29527.206520E@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 16:39, Richard wrote: > Whatever. I'm not claiming that PLATO invented these things but > considering I never heard of an Intercom 200 terminal or SCOPE, but I > had actively used PLATO in a large heterogeneous computing environment > and PLATO was the only system to have chat and discussion forums, I'd > consider it to have had a significant impact. Probably before your time. SCOPE underwent a name change and became NOS/BE, just like MACE became KRONOS. Both had their interactive facilities and both were incestuously related. I believe that Plato ran under KRONOS (needed a bunch of ECS IIRC). I doubt that many people remember COS for that matter. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 18:49:14 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 16:49:14 -0700 Subject: Wirelist for HP9000/200 RS232 cable Message-ID: <4643AF7A.5030907@bitsavers.org> The schematic for the 98626 is at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/9000_dio/98626-90000_RS232_May82.pdf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 06:50:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 05:50:16 -0600 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > the phrase "just worked" has two different meanings. It can mean > "worked", or it can mean "barely worked" If it is the PC remember -- barely worked. I still love how crappy the PC I/O is -- you trade a serial port for a USB hub if I remember how it first came out. $99 for the cable from the pcb to AT slot. I still don't see any improvement since the PC is crappy with interupts. PS. I have digital camera -- too small and too many icons to figure out. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 10 18:50:01 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 00:50:01 +0100 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <464399F7.8050104@dunnington.plus.com> <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4643AFA9.2020407@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 00:19, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Did they 'just work' or was a driver downloaded off the net to make them >>> work? >> Under Windows XP, "just worked". IIRC for older versions, there's a >> driver. Haven't found one that works for Mac OS X yet. > > the phrase "just worked" has two different meanings. It can mean > "worked", or it can mean "barely worked" In this case, I meant "worked without fuss" :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 19:20:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:20:11 -0700 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2007 at 5:50, woodelf wrote: > If it is the PC remember -- barely worked. > I still love how crappy the PC I/O is -- you trade a serial port > for a USB hub if I remember how it first came out. Well, you could also trade the same serial port for IrDA. Now, if you wanted a serial port, USB and IrDA, you had a problem. :) Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 07:35:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 06:35:54 -0600 Subject: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> <4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 May 2007 at 5:50, woodelf wrote: > Well, you could also trade the same serial port for IrDA. Now, if > you wanted a serial port, USB and IrDA, you had a problem. :) I'm I the only one? > Cheers, > Chuck I also want old DOS for schematic capture and PCB software - the *NEW* windows stuff is too much $$$. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 10 19:46:30 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 21:46:30 -0300 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I also want old DOS for schematic capture > and PCB software - the *NEW* windows stuff is too much $$$. What do you want? Old war3z or something new and free? - Diptrace seems to me the BEST el-cheapo schematic/pcb program. With a very active developer (there is a maillist on yahoogroups where Stanislaw Ruev not only fixes bugs but also adds features) and a nice interface, for me is the winner. Very worthy of a nice and calm look. - Eagle is nice if you can stand its UI. And the price is quite high if you want to go above 100 x 80 mm. But it is free up there. Has a linux version!!! - CIRCAD hasn't autorouter, but I use it for ages. Fast as a bullet. - KiCAD is a nice free program, also has a linux version. With all this stuff, are you still looking for smartdraw and tango DOS?!? Greetz, Alexandre PS: No. Smartdraw, orcad and tango DOS aren't "abandonware" since there is no such thing anyways. From fu3.org at gmail.com Thu May 10 19:47:52 2007 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 02:47:52 +0200 Subject: DDS vs Audio DAT In-Reply-To: <4640DF90.7090404@bitsavers.org> References: <4640DF90.7090404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <310f50ab0705101747u6eaabd59na575b7def35db53c@mail.gmail.com> I ran across two separate sites with extensive information on digital audio tapes, perhaps this is the appropriate place to put them. - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adrian.rixon/personal/ade/dat-dds/resources.html ^(above routed from http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adrian.rixon/personal/ade/dat-dds/index.html) - http://www.solorb.com/dat-heads/ Hope any of them could come to help. 2007/5/8, Al Kossow : > > I've never seen an audio cart used in a data drive, > > and we had a lot of customers using them.. > > Audio DATs don't have the media recognition burst, and will > be rejected by DDS drives. > > DDS tapes used as audio DAT tapes overwrite the DDS data, and > are unusable as data tapes after doing that. > > Early audio DAT recorders (TEAC DA-30) will accept 90M data tapes, > later TEAC drives will reject them. At one point we had about 6 > DA-30's at KFJC, which have all developed transport problems after > using a lot of 90M data tapes in them. > > We're slowly migrating 100's of DATs to optical or IDE disc media > because of the problems preserving data recorded to DAT. > > > > > > > From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu May 10 20:19:22 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 02:19:22 +0100 Subject: Oxide shedding (was Re: Floppy disc reader/writer status report) References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk>, <463F8FF7.32457.2ECE80C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <46404353.3040300@yahoo.co.uk><46404058.29064.317F781D@cclist.sydex.com> <4640A73C.9050003@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <00e201c7936a$d2afc6e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > [1] Grey-labeled 5.25" Wabash disks seem to be guaranteed to >leave me with a clear disk of plastic and drive heads caked in >magnetic coating, regardless of how they've been stored :-( Superb....I've got a fair few of those in my Atari and Beeb disc boxes. :-( Is there a list anywhere listing which types of discs have these oxide shedding problems? TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu May 10 19:54:08 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 01:54:08 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc reader/writer status report References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com><014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <00e101c7936a$d28c1240$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > You plug it in, then you play with it for hours trying to get >the darn thing to work. ROTFLMAO! > It seems to be the software side that nearly always causes me >problems.... Yes, to be fair, it's been the software side that I've mostly had the problems with - the one real exception being my wonderful "BT Voyager 105" USB ADSL "modem". It's got a wonderful bug in it which means that as your data transfer speed approaches the max speed of your line it starts to draw more and more power....until your USB ports shut down! But then I have *VERY* few USB devices as I tend to avoid buying them as much as possible. >....diagnosing problems (and of course under MS Windows you're lucky >if you even *get* any logfile output when something goes wrong) Too true, this is one a a vast catalogue of reasons why "XP x64 Edition" will be the last Windows I run. Sounds like USB support in Linux at least doesn't force you to have to abandon your old devices due to lack of drivers when you upgrade; I only have 7 USB only devices, *5* of which are unusable.... > My experience so far with USB cameras, mice, webcams, RS232 adapters >and CF adapters has been decidedly not good... Quite, I have a USB webcam (somewhere). It's limited to a max of 15fps @ 320*240 due to USB speed restrictions - OTOH my FireWire one can do 30fps @ 640*480 (or possibly even 800*600). CF adapters seem to be pretty hit and miss, when they work they work well, when they don't....augh! TTFN - Pete. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu May 10 20:46:46 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 18:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46438DCB.50501@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Unfortunately it didn't want to accept the cleaning > tape (just spat it > straight back out again) - I was worried there was a > fault with the tape > transport, but it's accepted one of the 8mm > cartridges just fine. Check to be sure the cleaning tape isn't all the way at the end. Those cleaning tapes are good for maybe 10-20 cleans - the drive won't rewind them (not like a DLT cleaning tape, that has to be rewound). Once it gets to the end, it insists on not using it. You can manually rewind them, although you're really not supposed to - might cause more harm than good, putting junk back on the heads. Best not to clean the drive unless it needs it. -Ian From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu May 10 20:54:15 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 21:54:15 -0400 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> <4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca> <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: I use gEDA and PCB, all GPL software. Worry free from being abandoned. vax, 9000 On 5/10/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > I also want old DOS for schematic capture > > and PCB software - the *NEW* windows stuff is too much $$$. > > What do you want? Old war3z or something new and free? > > - Diptrace seems to me the BEST el-cheapo schematic/pcb program. With > a > very active developer (there is a maillist on yahoogroups where Stanislaw > Ruev not only fixes bugs but also adds features) and a nice interface, for > me is the winner. Very worthy of a nice and calm look. > - Eagle is nice if you can stand its UI. And the price is quite high > if > you want to go above 100 x 80 mm. But it is free up there. Has a linux > version!!! > - CIRCAD hasn't autorouter, but I use it for ages. Fast as a bullet. > - KiCAD is a nice free program, also has a linux version. > > With all this stuff, are you still looking for smartdraw and tango > DOS?!? > > Greetz, > Alexandre > > PS: No. Smartdraw, orcad and tango DOS aren't "abandonware" since > there > is no such thing anyways. > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 09:19:12 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:19:12 -0600 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca> <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > > PS: No. Smartdraw, orcad and tango DOS aren't "abandonware" since > there is no such thing anyways. But you can't *buy* tango anymore! The big problem I have with the *free* stuff I have is that you have no 'fingers' for card edge connectors. The lack of a 84 pin PLCC socket and a windows upgrade have kept me from doing CPLD stuff. The fact I am still *hacking*1 on a tube amp has limited my $$$ for a nice computer design, but I did get my PDP-8 clone going so I can't say I don't have a classic machine.:) *1 The improved design went *POOF* with lots of smoke ... I found out later a diode was shorted for some reason in a full wave bridge. So that is all I have to say on this list about abandonware. Now to download the CPLD software --- now legacy software for what I need. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 10 21:17:30 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 22:17:30 -0400 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <200705102217.30628.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 10 May 2007 05:34, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 01:48 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > is to make money at any cost, customers be damned. > > > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > > Is anyone else seeing broken UTF-8 characters on the Jargon File? I'm > using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Ubuntu Feisty. > > Looks awfy like it's been pasted from an MS Word doc - surely not? > > Gordon Is that what those are? I was wondering... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 10 22:49:23 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 00:49:23 -0300 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> How offtopic can I go? :o) > But you can't *buy* tango anymore! The big problem I have with the *free* > stuff I have is that you have no 'fingers' for card edge connectors. > The lack of a 84 pin PLCC socket and a windows upgrade have kept me from > doing CPLD stuff. The fact I am still *hacking*1 on a tube amp has limited > my $$$ for a nice computer design, but I did get my PDP-8 clone going > so I can't say I don't have a classic machine.:) Love God for that ;o) You **have** fingers for card edge. If you don't have, it is real easy to do, take a look in eagle as an example: You need to do a 0.100" card edge connector. Setup the grid for 0.100", put a SMD pad with the dimensions of the finger you want, cut it, paste how much you want in the next grid positions. Do the same on the solder layer (assuming you were in top layer). Presto, your card edge connector! ;o) I've done lots of it here. About the 84pin PLCC socket, you have that in eagle. BTW eagle is - at this moment - the most library-full program you can find, but diptrace is coming closer, since it can import eagle's libraries, and there is a LOT of them floating on the net, take a look at www.cadsoft.de. If you cannot find, drop me a mail and I'll help you. I **don't** like eagle and the clunky UI, but when you learn how to use that, it becomes easy. I created a component (a PLCC-44 ZIF socket) and a board in less than 10 minutes, for a PLCC to DIP adapter. > *1 The improved design went *POOF* with lots of smoke ... > I found out later a diode was shorted for some reason in a full wave > bridge. > So that is all I have to say on this list about abandonware. > Now to download the CPLD software --- now legacy software for what I need. Dunno why legacy...are you wanting to mess with PAL/GAL? Later softwares can do that. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 11:24:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:24:39 -0600 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca> <009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46434747.40805@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Love God for that ;o) You **have** fingers for card edge. If you > don't have, it is real easy to do, take a look in eagle as an example: > You need to do a 0.100" card edge connector. Setup the grid for 0.100", > put a SMD pad with the dimensions of the finger you want, cut it, paste > how much you want in the next grid positions. Do the same on the solder > layer (assuming you were in top layer). Presto, your card edge > connector! ;o) But just what are the dimensions? I've done lots of it here. About the 84pin PLCC socket, > you have that in eagle. BTW eagle is - at this moment - the most > library-full program you can find, but diptrace is coming closer, since > it can import eagle's libraries, and there is a LOT of them floating on > the net, take a look at www.cadsoft.de. If you cannot find, drop me a > mail and I'll help you. I **don't** like eagle and the clunky UI, but > when you learn how to use that, it becomes easy. I created a component > (a PLCC-44 ZIF socket) and a board in less than 10 minutes, for a PLCC > to DIP adapter. It is the pin numbering I looking at here - a little odd in the corners. >> *1 The improved design went *POOF* with lots of smoke ... >> I found out later a diode was shorted for some reason in a full wave >> bridge. >> So that is all I have to say on this list about abandonware. >> Now to download the CPLD software --- now legacy software for what I >> need. > > Dunno why legacy...are you wanting to mess with PAL/GAL? Later > softwares can do that. Umm 600 meg vs 41 meg on dial up. Three 64 CLB CPLD's and 6 2901's would make a nice 12/24 bit slice. A few more CPLD's and you have your control logic. That gets me a nice 3 MHZ cpu if my timing guess is right. Using LS-TTL the same system is lucky to be in the 1 MHZ clock speed. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 10 23:32:49 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 01:32:49 -0300 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca><009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46434747.40805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <009801c79385$e29e7f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> > But just what are the dimensions? I don't have it at my head. But in the AMP databook you can find all of them! > It is the pin numbering I looking at here - a little odd in the corners. There are the numberings on datasheets! ;o) > Umm 600 meg vs 41 meg on dial up. Three 64 CLB CPLD's and 6 2901's would > make a nice 12/24 bit slice. A few more CPLD's and you have your control > logic. That gets me a nice 3 MHZ cpu if my timing guess is right. > Using LS-TTL the same system is lucky to be in the 1 MHZ clock speed. Why not an entire xlinx or altera FPGA?! There are cypress ENOURMOUS CPLDs that are blazing fast!!! From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 23:42:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 21:42:19 -0700 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha>, <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <464391BB.7688.314D6B8@cclist.sydex.com> I think I've still got a copy of Schema SDT kicking around. Runs on a floppy-only 5150 with a Herc graphics card and an Epson MX-80 printer. Is that retro enough? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 12:17:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:17:17 -0600 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: <009801c79385$e29e7f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca><009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46434747.40805@jetnet.ab.ca> <009801c79385$e29e7f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4643539D.9040909@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> But just what are the dimensions? > > I don't have it at my head. But in the AMP databook you can find all > of them! > >> It is the pin numbering I looking at here - a little odd in the corners. > > There are the numberings on datasheets! ;o) > >> Umm 600 meg vs 41 meg on dial up. Three 64 CLB CPLD's and 6 2901's would >> make a nice 12/24 bit slice. A few more CPLD's and you have your control >> logic. That gets me a nice 3 MHZ cpu if my timing guess is right. >> Using LS-TTL the same system is lucky to be in the 1 MHZ clock speed. > > Why not an entire xlinx or altera FPGA?! There are cypress ENOURMOUS > CPLDs that are blazing fast!!! > . Arg! I am downloading the wrong software ... I want atmel winCUPL . ( Stops download -- since I can't get the serial proms for a altera fpga. I knew I had a reason for not using FPGA's.) That's what I get for reading email and downloading stuff. Here is a guess for my system speed using LS parts not counting timing skew and other design features for 6502 style clock. Clock buffer 15 ns 74LS161 30 ns 74LS158 25 ns 74S472(prom) 60 ns 74LS173 20 ns ------------------ Total 150 ns for 1/4 phase. 600 ns memory cycle max speed. From bear at typewritten.org Fri May 11 02:13:30 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 00:13:30 -0700 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: >> Yeah... I have yet to take the plunge and buy any USB serial adapters >> for just that reason - for me, they have to work with Windows >> (laptops), Linux, _and_ Mac OS X, or I don't care if they are $2 or >> $10 each... they aren't going to cut it. > > If I find one that does, i'll let you know. Jesus, you guys, Keyspan has had not one, but NINE (at least!) models that have been supported under Windows, OS X, and linux, for YEARS. How hard is it to use Google? ok bear From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 11 02:47:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 03:47:46 -0400 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers In-Reply-To: References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org> <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net> <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca> <4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca> <006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <128F3F80-4EBA-47BD-BBF2-34313ACED9AC@neurotica.com> On May 10, 2007, at 9:54 PM, 9000 VAX wrote: > I use gEDA and PCB, all GPL software. Worry free from being abandoned. Seconded. I've done several commercial products with gEDA/PCB. It's top-of-the-line stuff, and it runs on modern platforms. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gordon at gjcp.net Fri May 11 01:59:53 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 07:59:53 +0100 Subject: Offtopic? ESR's Jargon File In-Reply-To: <20070510183554.GA17514@brevard.conman.org> References: <463D7F54.8000208@philpem.me.uk> <200705081011.07259.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200705082338.10080.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6AE2DBA9-CBB1-4C77-BEFC-66404CF757B8@neurotica.com> <4642B23A.1060802@gmail.com> <1178789659.5792.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <4643140B.7050404@philpem.me.uk> <20070510183554.GA17514@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <1178866793.10640.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 14:35 -0400, Sean Conner wrote: > processing tag) but Firefox *has* to accept the character set that Apache > sends (in this case, ISO-8859-1, which is the Apache default by the way) and Yes, after a bit of digging I suspected a bit of Apache misconfiguration. Gordon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 11 04:06:57 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 04:06:57 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46443231.3010305@yahoo.co.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Unfortunately it didn't want to accept the cleaning >> tape (just spat it >> straight back out again) - I was worried there was a >> fault with the tape >> transport, but it's accepted one of the 8mm >> cartridges just fine. > > Check to be sure the cleaning tape isn't all the way > at the end. Heh, it was too. Someone had only bothered to tick off two of the cycles on the tape itself, but stupid me hadn't bothered to check the physical tape inside :( I'm only getting just over 20KB/s out of the drive though, so I'm trying to trace the problem there at the moment - I gather transfer rate should be more like 15 times that value. Unfortunately the 'net seems to be populated with people who want dip switch settings for this (TTi, not the internal Exabyte drive) unit, but nobody who actually has them. I've ruled out SCSI problems (at least with the HBA, cabling and termination), so it looks like the drive itself really is only spitting data out that fast. mt's status isn't reporting any errors, nor are the SCSI logs, and nor is the front panel of the drive... A 31 hour restore if there's 2.3GB of data on the tape is a bit on the lengthy side... From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 11 04:20:04 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:20:04 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 08:13, r.stricklin wrote: > >>> Yeah... I have yet to take the plunge and buy any USB serial adapters >>> for just that reason - for me, they have to work with Windows >>> (laptops), Linux, _and_ Mac OS X, or I don't care if they are $2 or >>> $10 each... they aren't going to cut it. >> >> If I find one that does, i'll let you know. > > Jesus, you guys, Keyspan has had not one, but NINE (at least!) models > that have been supported under Windows, OS X, and linux, for YEARS. > > How hard is it to use Google? Using Google *and* the search engines on two suppliers sites we use found adapters, including the one I referred to, that *claim* to work but don't (or don't work straight off). Don't assume that just because something says it's supported that it actually works properly in all cases. A perfect example being the memory sticks I also mentioned earlier. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 11 04:47:31 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:47:31 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 10:20, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/05/2007 08:13, r.stricklin wrote: >> How hard is it to use Google? > > Using Google *and* the search engines on two suppliers sites we use > found adapters, including the one I referred to, that *claim* to work > but don't (or don't work straight off). I should have said that the specific one I was testing earlier this week came with Mac OS X drivers, but they don't work. It also had drivers for earlier Mac OS but we had nothing to try those on. It wasn't a Keyspan one, though; they tend to cost a lot more here (cheapest I can find is about US$40 equivalent an upwards as opposed to just over a third of that for the one I tried) but I'm off to order one now. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 11 05:03:38 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:03:38 +0100 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46443231.3010305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46443231.3010305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46443F7A.10406@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 10:06, Jules Richardson wrote: > A 31 hour restore if there's 2.3GB of data on the tape is a bit on the > lengthy side... Indeed, I'm sure mine used to take about 2-3 hours. It couldn't be something to do with synchronous vs async, could it? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri May 11 05:30:18 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 03:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46443231.3010305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <351724.85272.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I'm only getting just over 20KB/s out of the drive > though, so I'm trying to > trace the problem there at the moment - I gather > transfer rate should be more > like 15 times that value. > A 31 hour restore if there's 2.3GB of data on the > tape is a bit on the lengthy > side... Yeah, those things are slow, but not that slow. Make sure that the drive is elevated higher than the SCSI controller/computer - it might help if the data can go downhill :) But seriously, it should be going faster than that - is it shoe-shining a lot (moving back and forth over the head)? That means that it's retrying too much - either due to tape errors, or a dirty head. You might have to put your ear right on the drive to hear it - they are kinda quiet (at least compared to the computers I typically use them on!) -Ian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 11 06:07:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 06:07:22 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46443F7A.10406@dunnington.plus.com> References: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46443231.3010305@yahoo.co.uk> <46443F7A.10406@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46444E6A.9030009@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/05/2007 10:06, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> A 31 hour restore if there's 2.3GB of data on the tape is a bit on the >> lengthy side... > > Indeed, I'm sure mine used to take about 2-3 hours. It couldn't be > something to do with synchronous vs async, could it? I'm not sure. It's logged as connected with a user speed of 10MB/s, but "goal" and "current" speeds of 3.3MB/s. But still, 3.3MB/s is a long way off 21KB/s - even allowing for SCSI protocol overheads :-) It certainly didn't say at boot time that it was async, anyway. The TTi adapter board inside the drive seems to be an interceptor mainly for the front panel - SCSI in from the HBA on the one side, then SCSI out to the Exabyte EXB-8500 drive on the other. In other words, I don't know of a way of seeing what the bus between the intercept board and the drive itself is doing - it's quite possible there's a problem there. Unfortunately the EXB-8500 drive seems to have been modified firmware-wise as part of the TTi setup; it refuses to talk direct to the HBA and doesn't even show up in an inquiry at boot time. Looks like it'll *only* cooperate with the TTi intercept board. Either that or it's utterly, utterly broken. The only other possibilities are the unknown jumpers on the back of the main unit are running the drive in some sort of restricted mode, or there's some weird vendor-unique command that needs to be sent to the drive to kick it into high gear. If someone has a known-working one of these TTi units and can at least quote me their jumper settings off the back, that would be useful! 10-12 control the SCSI ID (as someone's scribbled that on the drive in pen), but I have no idea what the other 9 are for. If it comes to it, I'll just leave the thing running for a day and a half... From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri May 11 06:27:44 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 08:27:44 -0300 Subject: Schematic capture. Was:Re: USB drivers References: <464370B7.6060901@bitsavers.org>, <20070510161844.M50706@shell.lmi.net>, <464306F8.1020507@jetnet.ab.ca><4643544B.1265.224DB63@cclist.sydex.com> <464311AA.4080200@jetnet.ab.ca><006b01c79365$de32a730$f0fea8c0@alpha> <464329E0.4030609@jetnet.ab.ca><009301c7937f$60c32580$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46434747.40805@jetnet.ab.ca><009801c79385$e29e7f40$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4643539D.9040909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00c501c793bf$c3290330$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Arg! I am downloading the wrong software ... I want atmel winCUPL . > ( Stops download -- since I can't get the serial proms for a altera fpga. > I knew I had a reason for not using FPGA's.) Take a good look at cypress CPLDs, they don't need serial proms for bitstream loading ;o) From gordon at gjcp.net Fri May 11 05:22:54 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:22:54 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 10:47 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/05/2007 10:20, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 11/05/2007 08:13, r.stricklin wrote: > > >> How hard is it to use Google? > > > > Using Google *and* the search engines on two suppliers sites we use > > found adapters, including the one I referred to, that *claim* to work > > but don't (or don't work straight off). > > I should have said that the specific one I was testing earlier this week > came with Mac OS X drivers, but they don't work. It also had drivers > for earlier Mac OS but we had nothing to try those on. It wasn't a > Keyspan one, though; they tend to cost a lot more here (cheapest I can > find is about US$40 equivalent an upwards as opposed to just over a > third of that for the one I tried) but I'm off to order one now. What drivers? It's a USB-to-Serial adaptor - it should be a class-compliant device. I have never come across one that actually needed additional drivers to work in MacOS X or Linux. I haven't tried one in Windows, but past experience suggests that it needs drivers for *everything*. Gordon From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri May 11 06:30:27 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:30:27 +0200 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464453D3.4080805@iais.fraunhofer.de> Richard A. Cini schrieb: > I looked there originally but they don't seem to offer the sound board at > this point. They have a few parts, but that's it. No manuals or schematics > that I can see, and no "support" link. > Follow the link to the old webserver at reactivecomputers.gotdns.com and look into Public. -- Holger From jzg22 at drexel.edu Fri May 11 09:00:50 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:00:50 -0400 Subject: Big pile of VAX documentation to be disposed In-Reply-To: <200705030654.l436rjmq008498@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705030654.l436rjmq008498@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46447712.9090709@drexel.edu> >There is a large pile of VAX and other documentation waiting for >disposal on the 7th floor of Disque Hall at Drexel University in >Philadelphia. >Disque hall is located on the former 32nd street between market and >chestnut streets, its the tall(~10 floors)) brick building. >Pretty much everything paper, and a working Phaser 370? printer (missing >its paper tray and missing the centronics->microcentronics adapter but >otherwise working) is free for the taking. >This documentation originally went along with the VAX machine which >someone from the list rescued from there about 2 years ago when it was >being disposed. This is all still there. I found the VAX installation manual and license PAK buried in a seperate pile behind some fuzzy wall panels (I have it cached at home now), so there's also some networking manuals and other stuff behind there in grey binders in additional to the 22 orange binders of VAX stuff. This stuff IS going to be disposed of eventually, so I suggest anyone who wants it to get it QUICK. Theres also a bunch of printouts, schematics, software manuals, and source code listings for some old CERN-associated neutrino experiment which was run years ago, if anyone is interested in that. Jonathan Gevaryahu From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri May 11 10:22:46 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:22:46 -0400 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <4affc5e0705110822r302b4daan3d7243cb84ab367a@mail.gmail.com> On 11/05/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > What drivers? It's a USB-to-Serial adaptor - it should be a > class-compliant device. I have never come across one that actually > needed additional drivers to work in MacOS X or Linux. I haven't tried > one in Windows, but past experience suggests that it needs drivers for > *everything*. >From my experience, the "driver" for class-compliant devices tends to be just a file saying "Manufacturer ID XXXX product ID YYYY is a device using driver C:\WINDOWS\system32\genericclassdevice.dll" It then ties the IDs and the location on the USB tree (!) to that driver. Dumb. (!) Yes, the location on the tree. We set up a lab here at McGill with 2 USB devices standard for each workstation: TI DSP eval board, and a USB oscilloscope. We then imaged the main station (with the CodeComposer software which takes about 3hrs to install: WTF? lazy programming I guess...) with the drivers (custom, from the mfg. CD's) for the two USB devices... Once the images were copied onto the student workstations and they got powered up, both USB devices demanded drivers to be installed because the devices were plugged into different USB ports than they were on the main station! Argh! (More frustrating than it sounds because we didn't know that this was the problem, of course. We had to go around 12 workstations and sequentially install the driver 1, reboot, install driver 2, reboot... ugh.) That is beyond dumb. That is broken by design. Joe. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 11 10:37:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:37:05 -0400 Subject: FC drive interconnects? Message-ID: I was staring at a Seagate "fiber channel" drive today and trying to figure out what the most economical method of attaching a few to a box would be. Seagate made a line of STxxxxFC drives with a small D-connector (like a narrow SCA connector) that presumably has power, unit ID lines, and, of course, the drive's part of the FC loop for data in/out. I know there are a number of Sun boxes (3500? 5500?) that have compatible connectors right there in the CPU box - you just drop the drives into bays in the front of the machine and off you go. Presuming you have something older, with PCI or Sbus, say, what options are there for using these drives? I know there are PCI (PCI-X?) FC-AL-over-copper SCSI controllers. What has me puzzled is what the options are for the interconnects - drive bays, external connections (copper vs fiber) for said bays, copper-to-fiber converters, etc. If one wants to hang a wad of drives off of a server, it seems that an 8-drive bay or whatever, with a fiber attachment to an Sbus or PCI fiber card makes sense. If one has, say, a PCI SCSI controller with an FC-over-copper external connector, or just wants to hook up one or two drives, are there any inexpensive interconnect options, like, say, the SCA-to-68-pin adapter boards that are an inexpensive way to use an SCA drives in an non-SCA environment? Of course the answer might just be, "no... the drives are the cheap part of an FC-based storage scheme", but given how cheap FC drives seem to be these days (plus the added bonus of fiber-attached drives being allowed to be a couple of kilometers from your server via single-mode fiber ;-) it seems like an option worth exploring. My direct FC-AL experience is a bit old - I used to run SPARCserver 1000 with three pre-FC-AL disk boxes with 3 drawers each of up to seven 2GB SCA-connector drives. I think one or two members on the list might have one of these. It was nice in its day (10+ years ago), but a lot of juice and a lot of heat for your 42GB (you _might_ have been able to install 4GB drives, but no larger due to firmware limitations in the box). I did get to fiddle with what I think might have been an early proper FC-AL box with a stack of 9GB drives, but I didn't get to play with it long enough to have many details stick in my mind about it. For now, though, my best Sun box just has a couple of 18GB SCA-connector drives. Effective, but boring. Thanks for any info on FC-over-copper interconnects and adapters. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 11 10:37:16 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 16:37:16 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4640E697.2010905@philpem.me.uk> <464090E7.20294.32BA262D@cclist.sydex.com> <014f01c792b0$270559f0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <4642E8A5.9030309@yahoo.co.uk> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <46448DAC.50303@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 11:22, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > What drivers? It's a USB-to-Serial adaptor - it should be a > class-compliant device. Many aren't -- including, according to one webpage I saw, some of the Keyspan ones bear mentioned. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 11 11:37:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:37:47 -0600 Subject: Big pile of VAX documentation to be disposed In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 11 May 2007 10:00:50 -0400. <46447712.9090709@drexel.edu> Message-ID: In article <46447712.9090709 at drexel.edu>, Jonathan Gevaryahu writes: > This is all still there. [...] I guess the implication is that we have to show up physically to get it? That counts me out... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 11 11:41:57 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 09:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <46448DAC.50303@dunnington.plus.com> from Pete Turnbull at "May 11, 7 04:37:16 pm" Message-ID: <200705111641.l4BGfvpV017912@floodgap.com> > > What drivers? It's a USB-to-Serial adaptor - it should be a > > class-compliant device. > > Many aren't -- including, according to one webpage I saw, some of the > Keyspan ones bear mentioned. Besides, class compliant only means that the USB device designer went to class a couple times. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Bomb Victims Still Trying To Pick Up The Pieces ------------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 11 11:45:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 09:45:35 -0700 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46444E6A.9030009@yahoo.co.uk> References: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46443F7A.10406@dunnington.plus.com>, <46444E6A.9030009@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46443B3F.6655.5AB01F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2007 at 6:07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Unfortunately the EXB-8500 drive seems to have been modified firmware-wise as > part of the TTi setup; it refuses to talk direct to the HBA and doesn't even > show up in an inquiry at boot time. Looks like it'll *only* cooperate with the > TTi intercept board. Either that or it's utterly, utterly broken. Bingo on the firmware, I think. We had a miserable time with it-- long blocks being one of the biggest issues. TTi did notify us too late (after we'd published our list) that they had updated firmware, but we never did any further work with them after the initial go- round. You might want to find someone with an 8510 with a later firmware rev and see if you can use that--or just try the generic Exabyte 8500 firmware and forget about TTi's little board. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 11 12:19:33 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 12:19:33 -0500 Subject: 8mm data cartridges In-Reply-To: <46443B3F.6655.5AB01F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <490386.29775.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46443F7A.10406@dunnington.plus.com>, <46444E6A.9030009@yahoo.co.uk> <46443B3F.6655.5AB01F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4644A5A5.1010906@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 May 2007 at 6:07, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Unfortunately the EXB-8500 drive seems to have been modified firmware-wise as >> part of the TTi setup; it refuses to talk direct to the HBA and doesn't even >> show up in an inquiry at boot time. Looks like it'll *only* cooperate with the >> TTi intercept board. Either that or it's utterly, utterly broken. > > Bingo on the firmware, I think. We had a miserable time with it-- > long blocks being one of the biggest issues. Well all was not lost as it turns out - that first tape only contained 160MB of data out of a possible x GB, so it's finished! I'm not getting anything out of the other tape though - I can't even drag any raw data off it using dd, which I would have thought should be possible. Either the tape's broken or the drive just plain doesn't like it for some reason (this is the proper data cartridge too - it was the backup to video tape that's read successfully) > You might want to find someone with an 8510 with a later firmware rev > and see if you can use that--or just try the generic Exabyte 8500 > firmware and forget about TTi's little board. Yep.... It looks like TTi went to a lot of trouble / expense to turn a reliable drive into an unreliable one, all for the sake of a bit of front-panel status info :-( cheers J. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri May 11 12:30:05 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:30:05 -0400 Subject: FC drive interconnects? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200705111330.05997.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 11 May 2007 11:37, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was staring at a Seagate "fiber channel" drive today and trying to > figure out what the most economical method of attaching a few to a > box would be. Seagate made a line of STxxxxFC drives with a small > D-connector (like a narrow SCA connector) that presumably has power, > unit ID lines, and, of course, the drive's part of the FC loop for > data in/out. I know there are a number of Sun boxes (3500? 5500?) > that have compatible connectors right there in the CPU box - you just > drop the drives into bays in the front of the machine and off you go. > Presuming you have something older, with PCI or Sbus, say, what > options are there for using these drives? The connector is a standard 40-pin FCAL SCA connector, and is used by basically every available FC drive. There are some things you can get called "T" adapters to hook up individual drives, or you can get a multi-drive enclosure to hook up multiple drives. The enclosures generally come in two different forms - one with integrated raid controllers, and straight FC-AL drive enclosures. As far as the controller goes, there's a 1Gb FC-AL SBUS card that Sun has to connect to their storage gear (no idea if it'll actually work with just any FC gear, or if it has to be one of Sun's things, I seem to remember it'll sorta work with non-sun gear, but can't remember for sure), or you can use one of a few different 1Gb FC HBAs. With the HBAs, you can go either copper of fiber (whichever matches your drive enclosures). I've had really good luck with Qlogic's QLA2200 and QLA2100 cards, which are also pretty cheaply available on ebay (<$20 ea). Ethan, if you're gonna be going to Dayton this year, I can haul some FC gear with me, if you want some enclosures, cables, PCI HBAs, etc. I've got plenty of extra gear right now, which I could stand to divest myself of some of. :) If you're interested, catch me off-list. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 11 12:54:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:54:24 -0400 Subject: FC drive interconnects? In-Reply-To: <200705111330.05997.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200705111330.05997.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 5/11/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 11 May 2007 11:37, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I was staring at a Seagate "fiber channel" drive today and trying to > > figure out what the most economical method of attaching a few to a > > box would be... > > The connector is a standard 40-pin FCAL SCA connector, and is used by > basically every available FC drive. I figured it was a standard, but I had a memory that the early 9GB FC drives I played with at Lucent had either some form of edge connector or something not centered along the axis of the drive - i.e. - non-standard or obsolete standard. > There are some things you can get called "T" adapters to hook up > individual drives, or you can get a multi-drive enclosure to hook up > multiple drives. The enclosures generally come in two different > forms - one with integrated raid controllers, and straight FC-AL drive > enclosures. Hmm... I think "T adapter" was the phrase I was hunting for. Also, I would expect that an integrated RAID controller would require some sort of host-based configuration software? > With the HBAs, you can go either copper of fiber (whichever matches your > drive enclosures). I've had really good luck with Qlogic's QLA2200 and > QLA2100 cards, which are also pretty cheaply available on ebay (<$20 > ea). I've seen a couple of cards floating around that appear to be a Qlogic 2210, based on stickers on the cards. Perhaps they are just QLA2200s. > Ethan, if you're gonna be going to Dayton this year, I can haul some FC > gear with me, if you want some enclosures, cables, PCI HBAs, etc. I've > got plenty of extra gear right now, which I could stand to divest > myself of some of. :) If you're interested, catch me off-list. Hmm... I would _like_ to be at Dayton, but I'm trying to arrange how to still be permitted to put in 40 hours for the week (hourly contracting and all of that). A day off without pay is rather expensive. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 11 12:50:12 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 18:50:12 +0100 Subject: USB, serial, Macs and Linux (was Floppy disc reader/writer status report) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0705110822r302b4daan3d7243cb84ab367a@mail.gmail.com> References: <869151.18081.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1178812018.6825.161.camel@Darth.Databasics> <464358D0.301@dunnington.plus.com> <46439948.6000902@dunnington.plus.com> <46443544.2040205@dunnington.plus.com> <46443BB3.8060803@dunnington.plus.com> <1178878974.17257.1.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <4affc5e0705110822r302b4daan3d7243cb84ab367a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4644ACD4.2030605@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2007 16:22, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Once the images were copied onto the > student workstations and they got powered up, both USB devices > demanded drivers to be installed because the devices were plugged into > different USB ports than they were on the main station! Argh! (More > frustrating than it sounds because we didn't know that this was the > problem, of course. We had to go around 12 workstations and > sequentially install the driver 1, reboot, install driver 2, reboot... > ugh.) > > That is beyond dumb. That is broken by design. Yep, this sounds not unlike the problem of using a USB to serial adapter which only gets plugged in when needed. I always use the same serial adapter, but sometimes it shows up as COM3, sometimes as COM6, sometimes as COM15, etc, even when it's plugged into the same USB port (this is under Win XP). It wouldn't matter, except that hyperterminal needs to know which COM port, and it's stored in the settings file, so I end up guessing which settings file to pick. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 11 13:01:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 14:01:32 -0400 Subject: FC drive interconnects? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B053826-C591-465C-B193-3FB903ACEC62@neurotica.com> On May 11, 2007, at 11:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was staring at a Seagate "fiber channel" drive today and trying to > figure out what the most economical method of attaching a few to a box > would be. This is about as off-topic as can be, but I use a lot of FC storage at home and at work, so I can answer your questions below. > Seagate made a line of STxxxxFC drives with a small > D-connector (like a narrow SCA connector) that presumably has power, > unit ID lines, and, of course, the drive's part of the FC loop for > data in/out. I know there are a number of Sun boxes (3500? 5500?) > that have compatible connectors right there in the CPU box - you just > drop the drives into bays in the front of the machine and off you go. Lots of bigger Suns have integral FC storage...Ex500, Sun Fire x80R, etc. It verrah nice. :) > Presuming you have something older, with PCI or Sbus, say, what > options are there for using these drives? > > I know there are PCI (PCI-X?) FC-AL-over-copper SCSI controllers. > What has me puzzled is what the options are for the interconnects - > drive bays, external connections (copper vs fiber) for said bays, > copper-to-fiber converters, etc. If one wants to hang a wad of drives > off of a server, it seems that an 8-drive bay or whatever, with a > fiber attachment to an Sbus or PCI fiber card makes sense. If one > has, say, a PCI SCSI controller with an FC-over-copper external > connector, or just wants to hook up one or two drives, are there any > inexpensive interconnect options, like, say, the SCA-to-68-pin adapter > boards that are an inexpensive way to use an SCA drives in an non-SCA > environment? First, controller cards..."HBA" (Host-Bus Adapter) in FC parlance. FibreChannel is basically the SCSI command set over a very different, very fast, very well-designed communications medium that can also be used for other protocols such as TCP/IP. There are HBA cards available for all the major buses you'd be worried about (PCI and its later variants, Sbus, etc) from both Sun and other manufacturers (JNI, HP). There are different speeds of FC...1Gbps is the most common, with 2Gbps becoming more common and less expensive nowadays. 4Gbps is becoming available. Generally speaking, the people who aren't worried about upgrading for the sake of upgrading are saving thousands of dollars by sticking with 1Gbps FC. For 1Gbps FC on a PCI machine, the HBA cards to look for are Qlogic QLA-2100/QLA-2200 series, Emulex LP7000/LP8000, or JNI FCI-1063/FCE-6410 series, depending on platform and OS. For Sbus, I recommend a JNI FC64-1063. All of the above are available cheaply on eBay (for example) at any given time. Expect to pay anywhere from $10 to $30. JNI's drivers don't readily support Solaris10, but work fine with earlier releases. Qlogic QLA-2200 (and up) cards work out-of-the-box with Solaris10, and drivers are available for earlier releases. The Qlogic cards also work fine with the BSDs and Linux. Emulex has drivers for various releases of Solaris. SGI machines will use the Qlogic cards. FC HBA cards vary in the type of interface they present. Fiber is generally on FC connectors (assuming 1Gbps FC...other speeds use different connectors), and copper is usually on an HSSDC connector (looks like a flat/wide RJ-series connector) but may be on a DE-9. Some HBA cards have a slot for a GBIC, which is a plug-in physical layer interface module that's the same idea as an Ethernet transceiver, and can have any of the above types of external interfaces. Now you need a way to talk to the drive. If you want to put just one drive in a chassis (which is NOT how FC was designed to work, but enterprising folk have produced the necessary hardware), you need what's known as a "T-card". Do an eBay search for these...they are cheap, a few dollars apiece if memory serves. It plugs into the back of the drive and breaks out the power connector to a standard drive connector, the dev