From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 00:04:53 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:04:53 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465F6DBE.5030704@gmail.com> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <465ED118.2841.13F18CA@cclist.sydex.com> <465F6DBE.5030704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <465FA8F5.1060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I light thermite with glycerine + potassium permanganate. > > Peace... Sridhar Yep peace. I would not to want to get you angry with your collection of interesting combustion-ables . :) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 00:07:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:07:08 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <465F470C.28764.30BD5D8@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2007 at 16:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > When I taught C, I would always show the class a few examples of different > results from the same code in gcc, DeSmet, TurboC, . . . Back in the old Usenet days, dmr used to pose little conundrums in C on comp.lang.c (e.g. "What does this do?). Many of the answers took the form "I don't know". The net (but not the web) was a much nicer place back then; while there were knock-down drag-out discussions, they were always pretty polite. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 00:09:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:09:29 -0600 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <465FAA09.2090002@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> N = 1; >> A[N++] = N++; > I'd expect that to evaluate to a[1]=2 and n winds up being 3. But I'm weird. But how larger is your program overhead with modern C compilers? PS. It will not complle under C "main(){ ... }" is needed at least. From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Jun 1 00:11:31 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PixelCraft Pro Imager scanners - DRIVERS!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ethan Dicks Rocks!! He was able to download the driver, which I've put here: http://www.siconic.com/download/misc/ColorAccess.lzh Hopefully, it will work. I'll do some testing in the next day or so to make sure it works. In the meantime, queue up your orders. I really have to get rid of these quick. I have 9 total. One is already taken. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 00:33:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <465FAA09.2090002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> <465FAA09.2090002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070531223013.P32124@shell.lmi.net> > >> N = 1; > >> A[N++] = N++; > On Thu, 31 May 2007, woodelf wrote: > But how larger is your program overhead with modern C compilers? > PS. It will not complle under C "main(){ ... }" is needed at least. a code fragment, NOT a complete program Yes, there would be overhead required, along with variable declarations, etc. But ordinary overhead is nowhere near the problem that is caused by ambiguity. From technobug at comcast.net Fri Jun 1 00:39:33 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:39:33 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706010118.l511HVY6056031@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706010118.l511HVY6056031@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5DD4FE99-1F71-44DB-9F7C-EBB4D2EED41E@comcast.net> On Thu, 31 May 2007 14:56:37 -0700, "Rick Bensene" wrote: > I have an old glass TTY-type terminal made by a company called TEC. [...] > but figured I'd ask here first to see if anyone has > any information on the company or their terminals. > > Thanks in advance. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Web Museum > http://oldcalculatorm TEC was a Tucson, AZ based company that IIRC started out producing the logic-controlled, neon indicator lights that populated the fronts of IBM 360s and the like. Seeing the writing on the wall they branched into terminals and keyboards. The first terminals were upper case only. I was at the UofAZ computer center in the mid '70s visiting friends when one of TEC's folks brought in a new prototype upper/lower case terminals that we immediately hooked up to the local DEC10. We soon discovered that they used lower case for control codes... They really never got thing right. In the late 70's they spent a pile developing a mini which I, along with a group from the UofA were invited to evaluate. Seems that they invented the PDP8 right after the Nova 1200 and PDP11 had been released with a selling price higher than either of the competition. The indicator business died and they went under in the early '80s IIRC. Their legacy was a Superfund cleanup site... CRC From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jun 1 00:38:09 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:38:09 -0700 Subject: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. In-Reply-To: <465F97A5.9050700@msm.umr.edu> References: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> <465F97A5.9050700@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <2da601c7a40f$09b26760$0901a8c0@liberator> I think that this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracor is the tracor, inc that made the test rig that kaypro was part of, possibly something for the military. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. Dave McGuire wrote: > > I can see paying $50 for a Kaypro II. Maybe even $75. > > But $25,000.00? > > eBay #300039229895 the guy who listed it didn't do his logic right. A Kaypro II s/n 3 is arguably worth some amount, maybe more than a pedestrian one is, and if it is primo I agree, I'd pop a couple of hundred or so in a good mood. But the s/n 00003 he is gaga over is for the test set the Kaypro was part of. Probably some specialty house who had two lame attempts as s/n 1 and 2,and this might be the last. Nothing to do with anything special at kaypro. total miss by whoever listed it. I agree $50 or so on a good day. where is dk these days, he needs to drop a few thousand on this one. jim From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jun 1 00:44:47 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:44:47 -0700 Subject: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. In-Reply-To: <465F97A5.9050700@msm.umr.edu> References: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> <465F97A5.9050700@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <2daa01c7a40f$fa1e1a50$0901a8c0@liberator> Apparently this was listed back in 06 also... again for 25k. someone has no clue. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jun 1 00:54:59 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. In-Reply-To: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> References: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 May 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > I can see paying $50 for a Kaypro II. Maybe even $75. > > But $25,000.00? > > eBay #300039229895 A lot of the prices he's asking for his other stuff are rather out of line. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 04:25:19 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:25:19 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <11c909eb0706010225i2fccd17fyb0b784e349e5dc6b@mail.gmail.com> On 31/05/07, James wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125971585&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk > > Optimistic is an under statement :-) > I shudder to think what the price tag would be if it had a power supply and a console:) -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 05:16:21 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 03:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Booting a Vax 11/750 Message-ID: <106559.53102.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, the consensus is that I really don't need that RDM board in order to boot the Vax. So, I'm going to go ahead and see if I can boot something (anything) on this machine. I figure I'll start with NetBSD, since it's free and easy to get. I have no disk controller. But I do have an M7454 TU80 controller. Will this controller work with a normal pertec tape drive, like a Cipher? Since I have SCSI nine track drives, I can write a tape from my PC (linux box) and then I can move the tape over to the Vax. (hopefully). Once there, how do I boot - is the boot device switch controlled by the RDM, or something else? Thanks! -Ian From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Jun 1 05:16:28 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 11:16:28 +0100 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <200705311622.l4VGLWwl043370@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705311622.l4VGLWwl043370@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 31 May, 2007, at 17:22, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 06:00:46 -0500 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <465EAADE.6030809 at yahoo.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed >> >> I would hope that somebody here could look inside their machine >> and tell >> you the markings on the capacitor if the original one is so badly >> damaged >> as to be unreadable. > > If it was the mains suppression cap then I believe it's a standard > X2 class > 250V part* in the UK (but then presumably a different part gets > used here in > the US version) > > * I think they only sell X2's rated for 275V these days. Farnell > and RS do > them I belive, but I'm not sure that Maplin do any more. > > I might haul mine back home tomorrow (it's at Bletchley, but as we > now have an > A/// there it doesn't need to stay) in which case I can take a look > - I need > to replace that cap in mine anyway. There may be a difference between US and European power supplies. My spare one is in its original box, marked AP III Euro, EM WR SUP, 669-9050. The PCB is marked ASTEC AA11190 and the back panel is marked 220VAC 50-60Hz, so NOT 110 volt compatible. If it is one of the four black upright ones at the rear of the PCB, they are all marked 250v 100microFarad +105 degrees C. There is also a rectangular yellow one marked 0.22 microFarad at X 250v~MP whatever that means. There's another 20 capacitors on the board, so if yours is a european one and its one of the other 20 capacitors, you had better let me know which one. Roger Holmes Technical Director, Microspot Ltd. Developers of 2D and 3D graphic software for the Apple Macintosh. From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 1 06:22:00 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 06:22:00 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 31, 7 04:24:49 pm" Message-ID: <200706011024.l51AOwHq021589@hosting.monisys.ca> > > N = 1; > > A[N++] = N++; > > I'd expect that to evaluate to a[1]=2 and n winds up being 3. But I'm weird. This simple code snippet invokes "undefined behaviour" because: 'N' is modified twice within a single sequence block. 'N' is referenced within a sequence block separately from a modification occuring within the same sequence block. One might expect: N = 1 Save address of A[1] ++N (address of A[1]) = 2 ++N Which gives you the result you expected, however a compiler is free to perform the side effects occuring within a sequence block at any time it wishes, as long as it observes the charactistics of the operator causing the side effect. (ie: one instance of N++ cannot increment N before retrieving it's value, although the other instance of N++ could have incremented it). N = 1 A[1] = 1 N += 2 A[1] = 1, N = 3 N = 1; ++N (the second one) A[2] = 1 (saved from above ++N) ++N (the first one) A[2] = 1, N = 3 N = 1 Set temp to replace N to N+1 A[1] = 1 Set temp to replace N to N+1 N = temp to replace N A[1] = 1, N = 2 You get the idea - run the above sequence without violating the terms I mentioned at the beginning (ie: use separate variables) and the same answer occurs in all cases. Btw, technically, according to the standard, the compiler is free to say: N = 1 Humm... undefined behaviour... A[500] = 9999 N = -1 Although I've never seen an implementation which actually does this - usually you can fine some logical reason for the results. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 1 06:32:51 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:32:51 -0300 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <465ED118.2841.13F18CA@cclist.sydex.com><465F6DBE.5030704@gmail.com> <465FA8F5.1060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <052301c7a441$372b1bb0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> I light thermite with glycerine + potassium permanganate. How? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 1 06:35:50 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:35:50 -0300 Subject: WDXT-150 utilities? References: <438755.56557.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> > But that's effective in performing a low-level > format, no? Of this I'm pretty sure. If it's an oldie > (apparently) then fine. But with *newer* drives, and I > don't know how new, you'll lose skew rates or whatever > if you perform a ll format. You won't damage the > drive, as is often said, but you'll lose some > efficiency I guess. "Moroless". I remember some WD and Seagate controllers had more than just a low level formatter. I'm quite sure (although I don't see that in more than 10 years) that some seagate cards had a big menu with options like changing interleave, finding best interleave, low level format, surface test et al. Maybe I'm mistaken, who knows? :oP From pechter at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 07:05:08 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:05:08 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <898917.41419.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <04a401c7a3f0$e8dfd450$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 5/31/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 5/31/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > I think Virginia Tech was a customer. Too bad the port never got the > > > marketing it deserved. SVR4 with the Amiga graphics could've been a > slick > > > video editing system. > > > > The Amiga OS with the Amiga graphics is a very slick video edit > system > > anyways :) > > I've wanted to play with Amix, but just haven't had the time to load > it - I do have plenty of spare SCSI drives, and at least one A3000/25 > with a full boat of onboard RAM and an A2065, but, to be honest, when > Amix was fresh, I was using AmigaDOS every day, didn't have a spare > machine, didn't have (still don't have) better graphics than the > onboard ECS chips, and was already running UNIX on other hardware that > wasn't as slick as the Amiga. > > So... in my book, Amix wasn't a terrible idea, but it just never > seemed like a slam-dunk for me personally. Don't get me wrong; I love > UNIX, and have been using and adminstrating and developing on it for > 23 years (starting with 4BSD and SysV on a VAX-11/750). I just think > the Amiga can do a lot more interesting stuff under its native OS, and > there's *plenty* of platforms out there for which UNIX _is_ the best > choice. > > -ethan > Look what it could've done to the workstation market in price/performance if someone other thah Commodore was doing it/selling it. bill -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 1 07:36:30 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 05:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: from Bill Pechter at "Jun 1, 7 08:05:08 am" Message-ID: <200706011236.l51CaUrg028856@floodgap.com> > > > > I think Virginia Tech was a customer. Too bad the port never got the > > > > marketing it deserved. SVR4 with the Amiga graphics could've been a > > > > slick video editing system. [...] > > So... in my book, Amix wasn't a terrible idea, but it just never > > seemed like a slam-dunk for me personally. [...] > Look what it could've done to the workstation market in price/performance if > someone other than Commodore was doing it/selling it. The same probably could have been said about the Commodore 900, though. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And now for something completely different. -- Monty Python ---------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 08:50:29 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:50:29 -0500 Subject: PixelCraft Pro Imager scanners - DRIVERS!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601082958.070603e0@mail> At 12:11 AM 6/1/2007, you wrote: >Ethan Dicks Rocks!! He was able to download the driver, which I've put here: >http://www.siconic.com/download/misc/ColorAccess.lzh >Hopefully, it will work. I'll do some testing in the next day or so to >make sure it works. In the meantime, queue up your orders. I really have >to get rid of these quick. Hmm. That's not the driver. The Japanese for that file says "Checking the accessibility of color of the Web site and the like", and the other files on the left are all about color, too. The LZH/lharc has two files, readme and ColorAccess.exe. It's a small Windows program that doesn't run well for me, although it opens a window with Japanese menus. It was developed by Masahiko Sugimura, a color researcher for Fujitsu; one of the footnotes points to a paper on color blindness. Maybe it's time to start charging for my Google skeelz. :-) I cannot give credit to my years of college Japanese, but all praise goes to the Babelfish. Maybe this guy has a copy: http://www.hsinfosystems.com/biographies/RSchulz.html 11x17 scanners are going for $60 to $600 on eBay, plus S/H. Some duplex, some ADF, some meant for docs, other for color. Sellam's units look new in box, no? But no ADF. - John From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jun 1 02:28:14 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:28:14 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Sounds like a good idea. How do I do that? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: 01 June 2007 01:22 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Rod Smallwood wrote: > Boot er no but as it seems as the system spent some or all of its life > in the insurance industry I'm not surprised the disks have been wiped. > Ok so next move. I'm going to try and make a VMS 6.2 bootable tape on > the -200 as the -300 has a TK70. They both have ethernet, why don't you just boot the 300 from the 200 using MOP? Peace... Sridhar From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jun 1 02:42:49 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:42:49 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." "Long time passing" "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." "Long time ago..." " To the scrap man ... Every one... " "Where have all the power supplies gone etc. etc." What a plonker!! (British expression) Rod Smallwood DecCollector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Sent: 31 May 2007 23:21 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125971585&fromMa keTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk Optimistic is an under statement :-) From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jun 1 02:44:32 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:44:32 +0100 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I managed to find a slim one that fits and the door shuts!!! Rod Smallwood DecCollector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org Sent: 31 May 2007 22:11 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 Rod Smallwood wrote: > So whilst what I have will probably run, its not the correct cable. > It should be a right angled IEC type with a groove or slot opposite > the middle pin. The right angle is needed only if you want to shut the front door. If you don't have a right angle one, you either leave the door open or remove it (it comes off very easily ... it becomes lost very easily too :-)) Antonio From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 1 04:33:50 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:33:50 +0100 Subject: more eBay stuff In-Reply-To: <210908.59395.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <210908.59395.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1180690430.11571.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 23:51 +0100, Andrew Burton wrote: > Hehe, I did see some issue of Byte for sale on eBay the other day (not the same auction), but decided against it as I don;t have the space :( > > I did get "Graphic On The ARM Machines" by Roger Amos (published by Dabs Press in January 1993). Not hugely great for me since I don't have an Acorn Archemedes (though I did use them at Secondary School in the early 90's) I thought, but I decided to snap it up anyway for ?5 since noone else had bid on it. > The book came today and looks to be an interesting read. One of the first chapters talks about Vector graphics which is bound to teach me something. In one of the later chapters it talks about fonts, how they were made/stored and even anti-aliasing! > Now I *know* anti-aliasing didn't make it into games consoles until 1997 (on Nintendo's N64 console), but I assumed it was something totally new at that time. Now I realise it must have been new to games consoles. > Does anyone here know when anti-aliasing was first used and who came up with it? (No time to google it tonight) Well, Deluxe Paint had anti-aliasing. The principle has been around for a very, very long time. Games consoles had it well before the N64 was around, just not on hardware-accelerated 3D. It's actually particularly critical for graphics that are to be keyed over video, because the hard edges of digitally-generated text will make the audio buzz. This is because the upper harmonics extend out past the sound subcarrier. It's only noticeable on old TVs, really, but I remember noticing that my sound would buzz when captions came up. Now since the whole lot is done digitally, it's not such a big problem - and we can throw more computing power and greater bit-depth at it anyway. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 1 04:39:12 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:39:12 +0100 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 12:53 -0600, woodelf wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > OI let's not forget Thermite! You combine rust and > > powdered aluminum, ignite it (with a *storm match*, > > whatever that is), and it produces 6000 degrees F. > > Useful for welding train rails together, and rudders > > on battle ships. > A similar compound they believe was in the paint of the > Hindenburg. I saw a TV programme about this a couple of years ago - seems that someone investigating the Hindenburg explosion had turned up a book of fabric samples painted with various dopes and exposed to large electric sparks. Most had small holes from about the size of a pin prick up to ones resembling a fag burn in a car seat. Then they turned to the page with the fabric and dope used on the Hindenburg - it was almost completely burnt away! I don't speak (or read) much German but I can recognise text that says "DO NOT USE THIS STUFF WHATEVER ELSE YOU DO!", but it seems that they *did* use it... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 1 05:55:05 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 11:55:05 +0100 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <328186.91945.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <328186.91945.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1180695306.11571.21.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 09:00 -0700, Chris M wrote: > --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Well, the value and voltage rating is stamped on > > them... > > Not if the cap is extra toasty. Yup, but if that's the case you can generally work out roughly what it's meant to be, particularly if others around it have survived. If you've got a total unknown then you can probably figure it out once you've got the rest of the circuit figured out. > > > You still haven't told us how you work up a > > schematic > > > either. I'm losing my patience. > > > > Have a guess. Go on, just have a guess. It's > > simple really. > > uhh, I dunno. You stare at it and gleen what you can > from that (problem if you have multiple layer boards). > Then use an ohm meter to ferret out the rest? I think > I've heard something to the effect that *some* chips > could be damaged that way though. But I suppose if > you're well acquainted with electonic stuff, you'd > know when and where to apply that. Like I said, I dunno. Pretty much. Sometimes (like when I was sorting out the analogue end of my Ensoniq Mirage) I'll remove a couple of chips to figure out what the tracks underneath are doing. If there are a group of similar chips you can often figure out what a bunch of them are doing just by looking at one. For instance, in the Mirage there are a few 4051 multiplexers, and some TL084 op-amps, and some capacitors with one end connected to ground. These form the sample-and-holds for the VCF cutoff and resonance control voltages. Once you've got one, the rest are obvious. Gordon From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 1 09:59:10 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 07:59:10 -0700 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0706010225i2fccd17fyb0b784e349e5dc6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> <11c909eb0706010225i2fccd17fyb0b784e349e5dc6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:25 AM +0100 6/1/07, Pete Edwards wrote: >On 31/05/07, James wrote: >> >> >>http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125971585&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk >> >>Optimistic is an under statement :-) >> > >I shudder to think what the price tag would be if it had a power supply and >a console:) At 1490UKP, I'd say they're crazy. Am I correct in assuming the power supplies are likely to be the most valuable pieces on a VAX-11/780? Without all the doors, it is even more worthless. I wonder what condition the card cage & backplane is in, and how many cards it is missing. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 1 10:15:10 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:15:10 -0500 Subject: WDXT-150 utilities? In-Reply-To: <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <438755.56557.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <466037FE.1040407@mdrconsult.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> But that's effective in performing a low-level >> format, no? Of this I'm pretty sure. If it's an oldie >> (apparently) then fine. But with *newer* drives, and I >> don't know how new, you'll lose skew rates or whatever >> if you perform a ll format. You won't damage the >> drive, as is often said, but you'll lose some >> efficiency I guess. > > "Moroless". I remember some WD and Seagate controllers had more than > just a low level formatter. I'm quite sure (although I don't see that in > more than 10 years) that some seagate cards had a big menu with options > like changing interleave, finding best interleave, low level format, > surface test et al. Maybe I'm mistaken, who knows? :oP The owner's manual for the WDXT150 mentions "installing the software for the adapter", but nothing more specific than that. Mostly I want to know "how do I specify CHS geometry?" Oh, and can I use a CF adapter.... Doc From pechter at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 10:24:38 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 11:24:38 -0400 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> <11c909eb0706010225i2fccd17fyb0b784e349e5dc6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 10:25 AM +0100 6/1/07, Pete Edwards wrote: > >On 31/05/07, James wrote: > >> > >> > >> > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125971585&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk > >> > >>Optimistic is an under statement :-) > >> > > > >I shudder to think what the price tag would be if it had a power supply > and > >a console:) > > At 1490UKP, I'd say they're crazy. Am I correct in assuming the > power supplies are likely to be the most valuable pieces on a > VAX-11/780? Without all the doors, it is even more worthless. I > wonder what condition the card cage & backplane is in, and how many > cards it is missing. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > Probably worth about $50 USD as untested spare parts. Not worth the petrol to drag it home in my opinion. Now if it was complete and in working condition... I might think it would have some value. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 10:27:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:27:23 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: <0JIX00MJLFBEG4B5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JIX00MJLFBEG4B5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <465FD86B.16511.543AFD0@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2007 at 18:19, Allison wrote: > The 1400 series was after the 1500 series and was effectively a cost > reduced (cheaper to build and sell) terminal. The 1400 was circa > 1976-78 or so. Am I the only one who actually used one of these and hated it? I had one hooked to an MDS800 development system. For the time, they were inexpensive, but there were better terminals around--and the use of a displayable character (tilde) as the escape code leadin made things more trouble than the terminals were worth. I think I may even have the code for a full-screen editor written in PL/M somewhere. Cheers, Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 1 10:50:11 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:50:11 -0300 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply References: <3afee7520705262025n448f46bfrccc22314bf39d31a@mail.gmail.com><06b101c7a132$c36f8190$f0fea8c0@alpha> <3afee7520705311814y3f7f564fh545841f1a2bda1aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <05bc01c7a464$f81cf280$f0fea8c0@alpha> > On 5/28/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> > Rather than repair it I'm looking to replace it with another. >> Erik, this is an easy repair! > As it turns out, you (and just about everyone else who chimed in) were > right - the repair was easy and nothing else in the PS was damaged. > I found a power supply at my local junque place with the right cap and > used it to replace my blown one. The /// is back up and running fine. > It'll be off to its new owner shortly. > Thanks to everyone who replied, both on and off topic. ;) Woooo! Now you aren't afraid of trying that anymore, huh? ;o) Congratulations! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 1 11:05:02 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 13:05:02 -0300 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" atMay 30, 7 08:14:57 pm, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <05dc01c7a467$1d9a59b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > A modern board that has chips that are listed in a databook? Ha! www.datasheetarchive.com is your friend, as are the sites of the manufacturers of the chips ;o) Of course, you hardly would find any datasheet about a proprietary ASIC. I see no troubles finding any datasheets. If you need some help, drop a mail! Greetz Alexandre From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 11:23:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:23:12 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <05dc01c7a467$1d9a59b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <05dc01c7a467$1d9a59b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <465FE580.1358.576CFBC@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 13:05, Alexandre Souza wrote: > I see no troubles finding any datasheets. If you need some help, drop a > mail! A fair number of the denser boards that I've run into have PLDs at the least--and many house-numbered parts in addition. If you'd like a challenge, I can run a number of these past you and see how you fare. Mostly, you run into dead-ends without gaining much of a clue. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 11:26:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WDXT-150 utilities? In-Reply-To: <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <438755.56557.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20070601092309.S47933@shell.lmi.net> > > But that's effective in performing a low-level > > format, no? Of this I'm pretty sure. If it's an oldie On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, Alexandre Souza wrote: > "Moroless". I remember some WD and Seagate controllers had more than > just a low level formatter. I'm quite sure (although I don't see that in > more than 10 years) that some seagate cards had a big menu with options like > changing interleave, finding best interleave, low level format, surface test > et al. Maybe I'm mistaken, who knows? :oP Speedstor was fairly good for low level formatting. Watch out, though. There was a short period of time in which Steve Gibson? made the defaults include restoring to use sectors that had been marked bad, but that successfully formatted! That negated the manufacturers' tests that had marked some sectors as being untrustworthy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From shumaker at att.net Fri Jun 1 11:29:21 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:29:21 -0700 Subject: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. In-Reply-To: References: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200706011631.l51GVMgc000365@keith.ezwind.net> interesting... The fuzzy number in the lower left part of the TRACOR label plate looks like a federal govt contract number. That would explain the "test set" verbiage as well as the really low "serial number" s shumaker At 10:54 PM 5/31/2007, you wrote: >On Thu, 31 May 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I can see paying $50 for a Kaypro II. Maybe even $75. > > > > But $25,000.00? > > > > eBay #300039229895 > >A lot of the prices he's asking for his other stuff are rather out of >line. > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 11:33:24 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WDXT-150 utilities? In-Reply-To: <466037FE.1040407@mdrconsult.com> References: <438755.56557.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> <466037FE.1040407@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20070601093100.T47933@shell.lmi.net> Sorry In my mention of Speedstor, the warning about inappropriate unmarking of bad sectors is a fault of some versions of SPINRITE, not SPEEDSTOR. unrefreshed wetware dynamic RAM is not reliable. From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Jun 1 11:42:41 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:42:41 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <001901c7a46b$e07e2d90$8b04010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Sounds like a good idea. How do I do that? You configure the 4000-200 into a cluster (of one). Then you tell it that it will have the VAX 4000-300 as a LAVC cluster member. Then boot the VAX 4000-300 into the cluster. Then proceed as I outlined previously. Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 11:49:12 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <20070601094810.H47933@shell.lmi.net> > > > OI let's not forget Thermite! You combine rust and > > A similar compound they believe was in the paint of the > > Hindenburg. > text that says "DO NOT USE THIS STUFF WHATEVER ELSE YOU DO!", but it > seems that they *did* use it... "Oh the huge manatee!" From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 12:12:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 11:12:00 -0600 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 31 May 2007 16:24:49 -0700. <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20070531162009.F32124 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > For example, what would you expect from: > (and would you really expect it to behave the same on other compilers?) > > N = 1; > A[N++] = N++; I think in this case the result is undefined, but a variable at an inner scope hiding a variable at an outer scope *is* defined and should work as advertised. On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 12:13:23 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 11:13:23 -0600 Subject: usenet nostalgia (was: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 31 May 2007 22:07:08 -0700. <465F470C.28764.30BD5D8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <465F470C.28764.30BD5D8 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > place back then; while there were knock-down drag-out discussions, > they were always pretty polite. Usenet had the same proportion of asshole users back then, just that they were fewer in absolute number because the size of the total users was less. I dealt with plenty of asshole users on usenet, even in 1988. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 12:25:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 13:25:31 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: > > For example, what would you expect from: > > N = 1; > > A[N++] = N++; > > On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. Out of a cannon, hopefully. Unfortunately, I've seen my share of messes caused by tricks similar to this. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 1 12:26:31 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:26:31 -0700 Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com Message-ID: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> > With all the Kaypro 10 in the group I wondered if someone could send me > a copy of the format.com. I located the source for the program today, and have made imagedisk images of the dealer diagnostic disc. http://bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG/Kaypro/Kaypro10/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 12:50:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:50:03 -0700 Subject: usenet nostalgia (was: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff)) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <465FF9DB.31795.5C6534B@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 11:13, Richard wrote: > Usenet had the same proportion of asshole users back then, just that > they were fewer in absolute number because the size of the total users > was less. I dealt with plenty of asshole users on usenet, even in > 1988. Or, in my case, in 1982. But "trolls" weren't nearly as common then as they are today. Cheers, Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jun 1 12:56:58 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 13:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Bill Pechter > > > A friend of mine who worked at Fort Monmouth and USL worked on the port -- > IIRC. > > I think Virginia Tech was a customer. Too bad the port never got the > marketing it deserved. SVR4 with the Amiga graphics could've been a slick > video editing system. > Note key word "marketing" and remember we are talking about Commodore, which can mean anti-marketing.. :-/ Cheers, Bryan From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jun 1 13:15:12 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Schematics (was: Apple /// Power Supply) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070601181512.7766D58AB1@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Tony Duell > > > > > Dan, that's fine advice. But a capacitor is just a > > capacitor. They blow. No reason someone shouldn't > > replace one if that'll get their computer back up and > > running. > > The Tandy 2000 used a funky p/s that was prone to, I > > think, one particular cap blowing. What can you do? > > You could jury rig another p/s in it's place. But when > > mine went (in 1989) I looked at the schematic, and > > Incidentally, IIRC, the Tandy 2000 PSU schematic is reprinted in the 2nd > edition of The Art of Elecrtronics (!) > Speaking of schematics, the TRS-80 schematic (plus a couple of Radio Shack pong-style videogame schematics) are reprinted and discussed in "Troubleshooting Microprocessors & Digital Logic" by Robert L. Goodman. Cheers, Bryan From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jun 1 13:17:35 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Burroughs ICON In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20070531190230.025d5980@pop.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070601181735.E617758A41@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Devon Stopps > > Someone on the list has (had?) a few. I can't remember who, check the > archives. > I have tried searching the archives before, but it always came back with zero results no matter what I entered for the search string. :( Cheers, Bryan > >Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:52:37 -0400 (EDT) > >From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) > >Subject: Re: Burroughs ICON > > > >And thusly were the wise words spake by Chris M > >> > >> Anyone have one? They were popular in Canada (maybe > >> made there??). I want it. > >> > > > >Ontario to be exact, where I used them in high school. Their OS was > >QNX, another Canadian company. :) I have yet to see in available, > >though.. :( > > > >Cheers, > > > >Bryan > From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jun 1 13:18:31 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:18:31 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com In-Reply-To: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> References: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <466062F7.9040207@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > With all the Kaypro 10 in the group I wondered if someone could send me > > a copy of the format.com. > > I located the source for the program today, and have made imagedisk images > of the dealer diagnostic disc. > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG/Kaypro/Kaypro10/ > > > You can find source code for some of the kaypro utilities on one of my web pages. It was on the hard disk of a kaypro 10 that I once had: http://www.thebattles.net/oddments/oddments.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 13:29:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:29:25 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Bryan Pope wrote: > Note key word "marketing" and remember we are talking about Commodore, > which can mean anti-marketing.. :-/ My favorite phrase of the day was "if Commodore were to market sushi, they'd call it cold, raw, dead fish." -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 13:31:50 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:31:50 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> At 12:56 PM 6/1/2007, Bryan Pope wrote: >Note key word "marketing" and remember we are talking about Commodore, >which can mean anti-marketing.. :-/ Yes, CBM's marketing was the first time I heard the old joke about "If they bought out Kentucky Fried Chicken, they'd rename the company Warm Dead Bird." Gadzooks there was lots of "What if" wishing being done by Amiga developers back in the day. As with many tech industries, I think it stems most strongly from the base of lower-level techies who in their gut fervently believe that if a product is somehow technically superior, it should win in the marketplace. The Amiga did pioneer so very many things, but in the end, sheer numbers win, and as the Mac and PC market blew past it, carrying the mutated developments with it. Lots of its "who needs it?" soon became "must haves": color graphics, sound, multitasking, video, networking, hypertext. But I know I've said this before - in a post below, almost old enough to make the ten-year-rule. - John >Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:38:24 +0000 >To: classiccmp at u.washington.edu >From: John Foust >Subject: Re: Old computer books > >At 07:25 AM 6/25/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: >>Why not? The Soul of a New Machine, Insanely Great, and Hackers seemed >>to do just fine, to name a few. I don't mean an encyclopedia, but a >>bunch of stories about the design of stuff (i.e. a chapter on how >>Multics was made, a chapter on how the Apple arose, a chapter on where >>the ENIAC came from,etc.). > >Once upon a time when I was in the thick of it, I thought about writing >a book about the history of the Amiga, where even from the early days >it clear the machine had strengths beyond the more popular computers >of the time, and that it was swimming against the current. > >The problem in my mind was that there was no guiding thread, no "hook", >no core story, no moral or lesson - just fumbling computer companies, >insane investors, inept marketroids, crazy genius types, etc. Is this >interesting enough, or just interesting to Amiga-heads? I knew other >people who thought about writing a book like this who had similar >concern about lack of focus, about how to make the story interesting >enough for someone who wasn't personally involved in some aspect of it. > >One clarifying thought was inspired by the drunken ramblings of an >Amiga dealer during the last days at a NewTek party, who said "It's >like we were from five years in the future, and we had television, >and we were trying to explain it to people who'd only seen a radio. >Radio with pictures? Who wants that?" > >There's another lesson to be told about the tendency of techies to >believe that technical excellence should always Win, but it rarely >does. Then again, maybe these sorts of Valley stories rarely have >a point. :-) > >- John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jun 1 13:59:41 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:59:41 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> Message-ID: On 31/5/07 23:21, "James" wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125971585&fromMakeTrac > k=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk > > Optimistic is an under statement :-) The first ONE MIPS machine? Netware software called DecNet? Anyone fancy mailing this doofus to correct his vastly overpriced auction? Heh. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 14:00:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:00:08 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> References: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, John Foust wrote: > The Amiga did pioneer so very many things, but in the end, > sheer numbers win, and as the Mac and PC market blew past it, > carrying the mutated developments with it. Lots of its "who needs it?" > soon became "must haves": color graphics, sound, multitasking, video, > networking, hypertext. I heard it over and over again back in the day... "Graphics? That's for games. We have 80 column text!" "Color? Who needs color for spreadsheets?" "Sound? Who needs sound for business apps?" "Video? Who needs video at work?" "Networking? We can move files on floppies." "Multitasking? Nobody needs that on a personal computer." "Mice? They look silly and get in the way of the keyboard." and on and on and on... Of course, once the PC Crowd latches onto one of those technologies, it's the "greatest thing evar". Doesn't matter that you had it 5+ years before and they didn't care. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 14:00:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070601114603.Y47933@shell.lmi.net> > > > For example, what would you expect from: > > > N = 1; > > > A[N++] = N++; > > On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. > Out of a cannon, hopefully. . . . into the sun. (Turanga Leela explaining to Philip Fry that "you gotta do what you gotta do") > Unfortunately, I've seen my share of > messes caused by tricks similar to this. . . . followed by complaints that the compiler didn't do what they expected, and claims that there is a bug in the compiler, because it behaved differently than their "baby duck" compiler. In the first semester of C, I try to teach students to optimize for readability, and to avoid compound steps. But, in the second semester, I get some students who have learned bad habits, and think that they are "optimizing" their code when they attempt to write Holub-style "puzzle" code. Even an erudite explanation, such as what Dave posted, gets a response of "well, it works on xxx compiler!" It is true, that scope of variables IS defined, and should function as expected. But there were a LOT of variations in early compilers, some legit, and some bad. Complex compound lines, even when they follow all of the rules, such as: while (*T++=*S++); make finding and isolating problems difficult. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 1 14:02:34 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" Message-ID: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> This is a fascinating, if somewhat qualitative, comparison of user interface and functionality of a Mac Plus and an AMD dual core. Presented without further commentary. http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Bruce Geller -------------------------------------------------- From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jun 1 14:09:10 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: usenet nostalgia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, Richard wrote: > Usenet had the same proportion of asshole users back then, just that > they were fewer in absolute number because the size of the total users > was less. I dealt with plenty of asshole users on usenet, even in > 1988. And before that time, the BBS systems had pretty much the same types of users. People write things from behind a screen which they would never say to your face. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 14:21:33 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:21:33 -0600 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:31:50 -0500. <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: In article <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0 at mail>, John Foust writes: > carrying the mutated developments with it. Lots of its "who needs it?" > soon became "must haves": color graphics, sound, multitasking, video, > networking, hypertext. The rest of it, yeah, but not networking and hypertext. By "not" I mean that those are not thing that were groundbreaking with the Amiga. The Mac had Hypercard and the Amiga never had any decent networking until long after it was introduced. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 14:25:24 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:25:24 -0600 Subject: usenet nostalgia (was: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:50:03 -0700. <465FF9DB.31795.5C6534B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <465FF9DB.31795.5C6534B at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Or, in my case, in 1982. I was reading usenet in the 82-86 range, but didn't really participate in a big way until '88. > But "trolls" weren't nearly as common then > as they are today. Proportionately speaking, yes, they were. There were just fewer in absolute numbers because the user base was smaller. Usenet and to a certain extent the protocols of the internet like mail, are predicated upon most people following the honor system. The honor system doesn't scale. Its the same reason why we need cops and jails. Once you achieve a certain critical mass in the population, there's a chunk of people who psychologically feel that they can behave like assholes because they are essentially strangers. Noone's going to be banging on the front door of their house and giving them shit about their usenet post. In a smaller community where everyone knows each other, the peer pressure keeps you from acting like a jerk. You feel more secure acting like a jerk in a large crowd or in a community where noone knows you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 14:43:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:43:47 -0700 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: , <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail>, Message-ID: <46601483.14943.62E7134@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 15:00, Ethan Dicks wrote: > and on and on and on... > > Of course, once the PC Crowd latches onto one of those technologies, > it's the "greatest thing evar". Doesn't matter that you had it 5+ > years before and they didn't care. Aw c'mon Ethan. Much of this stuff was available as third-party add- ons at around the same time or even earlier for the PC platform. In fact, the EGA and PGA both predate the Amiga in the marketplace by a full year. You might as well criticize the Amiga for not having an integral scanner. But, in view of the PC as a serious business machine, many of these observations are quite accurate. Bread-and-butter applications in 1985 were spreadsheet, word processing, database and the usual bookkeeping apps (AP, AR, GL, Payroll, Order entry, etc.). A key criterion for compatibility was "Will it run Lotus 123?" You don't need much more than a beep for those in the way of sound. Heck, I've still got a light pen for a PC. I look at it in the same way the audiophiles do. You can buy an all- in-one box at the outset or you can go the component route. Which makes more sense depends on your needs. As long as you're offering components, you don't stand a chance offering an all-in-one box as direct competition. Many manufacturers who attempted to do so (outside of laptop/notebook vendors) received a rude surprise. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 14:50:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:50:02 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: > The rest of it, yeah, but not networking and hypertext. By "not" I > mean that those are not thing that were groundbreaking with the Amiga. > The Mac had Hypercard and the Amiga never had any decent networking > until long after it was introduced. That's true. I shouldn't have lumped networking into that list. My only excuse was that I was into networking Amigas long before most other users cared about it. I remember debating with the comp.sys.amiga.networking crowd as to the desirability of SANA (Standard Amiga Network Architecture) drivers for 3rd-party non-ethernet networking hardware, long past the point that it should have been a no-brainer. The "problem" was that AmigaOS didn't come with TCP/IP, so most users didn't care if your network widget talked SANA or not - it didn't _have_ to interoperate to be useful, and some of the more vocal users (luddites) decried the complexity of SANA and the associated network stacks. At the same time in the DOS world, all networking was add-on, and the Mac had out-of-the-box networking, but it was a closed network standard (Mac to Mac only). TCP/IP took a while to trickle down from Workstations to Micros. -ethan From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 1 14:53:07 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:53:07 -0300 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> <20070601114603.Y47933@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> Dear friends I'm working into some 68301 (68000 for embbedded applications) old-equipment stuff. I'm completely lost into everything, I cannot even decompile/simulate the code on PC. Maybe some good and candid soul would lend a hand at least to get me started? I need only to do a very small mod into the program, but first need to understand how it works. Thanks a lot! Alexandre From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 14:54:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:54:54 -0600 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4660798E.4030204@jetnet.ab.ca> Rod Smallwood wrote: > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > "Long time passing" > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > "Long time ago..." > " To the scrap man ... Every one... " > > "Where have all the power supplies gone etc. etc." Chuckle ... I have Bod Dylan on the CD ... so by luck I had the music to go with lyrics. :) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 14:55:23 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:55:23 -0500 Subject: usenet nostalgia (was: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601145503.07304da8@mail> At 02:25 PM 6/1/2007, Richard wrote: >You feel more secure acting like a jerk in a large crowd or in a >community where noone knows you. You mean this theory? http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 14:46:53 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:46:53 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> References: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: <466077AD.2050701@yahoo.co.uk> John Foust wrote: > Gadzooks there was lots of "What if" wishing being done by > Amiga developers back in the day. As with many tech industries, > I think it stems most strongly from the base of lower-level techies who > in their gut fervently believe that if a product is somehow > technically superior, it should win in the marketplace. I don't think there's anything wrong with that belief though - it's just a shame that marketing will generally win over a more robust and well-designed product. As a species, I suspect we deserve what we get :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 14:51:28 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:51:28 -0500 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com> References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 30, 7 08:14:57 pm, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 May 2007 at 23:24, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Actually, if you'll let me use a BGA rework oven so I can remove said >> chips and get to the connections, and provided I have data on the chips, >> yes. It'd be a lot easier to work out a board with such chips on than a >> board with, say , 1000 discrete transistors on it. > > A modern board that has chips that are listed in a databook? Ha! > > I'll take the 1000 transistor board--it's more likely to be 2 layers > and most likely with circuits that repeat. Surely it's as much effort whether circuits repeat or not? Don't you still have to check all possible interconnects to make sure that you've got everything traced right, even if a quick visual inspection might make it appear that there's a lot of repetition? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 14:54:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:54:40 -0500 Subject: DRAM camera sensor In-Reply-To: <20070531155019.H32124@shell.lmi.net> References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> <20070531155019.H32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46607980.9010109@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 31 May 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: >> I remember a document from the 80s that described how to take a DRAM chip, >> decap it, and use it as a crude camera. I think I remember something about >> a lens too. It might have been a joke... >> This would have to be a ceramic type DRAM chip to be decapped by an >> individual (easily). >> Does anyone know what I'm talking about or have the document? I thought it >> sounded fun. : ) > > Ciarcia's column in Byte There was at least one UK computer magazine which carried such a project too - unfortunately I can't remember which one, let alone which year :-( I suspect it was later than the Byte one. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 15:11:01 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:11:01 -0600 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:50:02 -0400. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > TCP/IP took a while to trickle down from > Workstations to Micros. Agreed. I think it was the web browser that pushed the adoption and integration of TCP/IP. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 15:12:23 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:12:23 -0600 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C In-Reply-To: References: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: <46607DA7.9050408@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Of course, once the PC Crowd latches onto one of those technologies, > it's the "greatest thing evar". Doesn't matter that you had it 5+ > years before and they didn't care. The PC still don't have PORN icons I remember seeing on the AMIGA ... Click on the scanty cad girl icon and ... The PC games sold a I think helped a lot of PC's sales like M$ flight-simulator for use after work even when the PC still had CGA. The reverse can't be said for the game console style marketing. Was it the Amiga 2000 that tried to give to the best ... err worst of both worlds? > -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 15:27:12 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:27:12 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <46601483.14943.62E7134@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> <46601483.14943.62E7134@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601151506.07139cd8@mail> At 02:43 PM 6/1/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >In fact, the EGA and PGA both predate the Amiga in the marketplace by a >full year. You might as well criticize the Amiga for not having an >integral scanner. Or another way of putting it, the PGA was introduced in '84 for the low price of $4290, the Amiga came out in '85 for $1300, and PGA went dodo in '87 when VGA arrived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Graphics_Controller If you could get an extra mortgage, you could've bought an SGI, too. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 15:33:19 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:33:19 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601152841.06a24568@mail> At 02:50 PM 6/1/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: >>The rest of it, yeah, but not networking and hypertext. By "not" I >>mean that those are not thing that were groundbreaking with the Amiga. >>The Mac had Hypercard and the Amiga never had any decent networking >>until long after it was introduced. > >That's true. I shouldn't have lumped networking into that list. My >only excuse was that I was into networking Amigas long before most >other users cared about it. Aww, I thought I'd get the blame for putting networking on that list. Yes, networking wasn't that common on PCs back then, either. My Amiga business partners thought a DECnet for Amiga would be real popular. We ported it. It wasn't. Not even paired with Dale Luck's X Window to turn the Amiga into an X term. Sometimes the ideas are in the wind - yes, Mac had Hypercard, but tagged text file help file / doc file systems were in place on the Amiga, too, predating HTML. - John From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jun 1 15:44:09 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 22:44:09 +0200 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net><20070601114603.Y47933@shell.lmi.net> <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9CF@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Alexandre Souza >Verzonden: vr 01-06-2007 21:53 >Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >Onderwerp: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff > > Dear friends > > I'm working into some 68301 (68000 for embbedded applications) >old-equipment stuff. I'm completely lost into everything, I cannot even >decompile/simulate the code on PC. Maybe some good and candid soul would >lend a hand at least to get me started? I need only to do a very small mod >into the program, but first need to understand how it works. > > Thanks a lot! > Alexandre Hi Alexandre, I know what you mean ... about a year ago I searched for a program running on a PC, but could execute 68000 code, preferably free :-) I found a few sites, but no software. Somehow I managed to stumble on something that *used* to be downloadable, but was no longer. Along some links I found a downloadable copy ... The program runs in a CMD box, at least it does in Windows 2000. You can load an 68000 program and run/step/breakpoint (?) it. If that's of any help (perhaps to more people into Moto 68k) I can mail it on Monday, because it's on my PC at work. Of course, your 68000 embedded application can only run as long as the program does not want to access specific hardware ... - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 15:52:51 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:52:51 -0600 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:54:54 -0600. <4660798E.4030204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <4660798E.4030204 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > Rod Smallwood wrote: > > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > > "Long time passing" > > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > > "Long time ago..." > > " To the scrap man ... Every one... " > > > > "Where have all the power supplies gone etc. etc." > > Chuckle ... I have Bod Dylan on the CD ... so by luck I had the > music to go with lyrics. :) Actually I was thinking of The Kinks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 16:02:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:02:17 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com>, <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 14:51, Jules Richardson wrote: > Surely it's as much effort whether circuits repeat or not? Don't you still > have to check all possible interconnects to make sure that you've got > everything traced right, even if a quick visual inspection might make it > appear that there's a lot of repetition? So, you're saying that it's easier deciphering a PCB with a couple of 544-conductor house-numbered BGAs on it than working through a PCB with 1000 discretes? I know how a transistor (resistor, capacitor, inductor) works, but I lack the psychic abilities to figure out what a house-labeled (or better, unlabeled) QFP, BGA or even a large DIP does, particularly if the maker's gone out of business. I have a ghost of a chance of figuring out (and repairing) the discrete board, even if the transistors are house-numbered. But I'm out of luck and skills working out a board filled with custom ICs with no data. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 16:17:20 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:17:20 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <052301c7a441$372b1bb0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <465ED118.2841.13F18CA@cclist.sydex.com><465F6DBE.5030704@gmail.com> <465FA8F5.1060707@jetnet.ab.ca> <052301c7a441$372b1bb0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46608CE0.4050603@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> I light thermite with glycerine + potassium permanganate. > > How? Mix them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80Q3GgeeIVM Peace... Sridhar From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 16:19:17 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:19:17 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601151506.07139cd8@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> <46601483.14943.62E7134@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601151506.07139cd8@mail> Message-ID: <51ea77730706011419x58e8712an43fef9fba6fb9fe7@mail.gmail.com> On 6/1/07, John Foust wrote: > Or another way of putting it, the PGA was introduced in '84 for > the low price of $4290, the Amiga came out in '85 for $1300, > and PGA went dodo in '87 when VGA arrived. And who else on ebay has one, but our old friend "it_equipment_xpress?" ($133 + at least double actual shipping costs!) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 16:19:53 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:19:53 -0600 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? Message-ID: I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 16:29:54 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:29:54 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601152841.06a24568@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601152841.06a24568@mail> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, John Foust wrote: > My Amiga business partners thought a DECnet for Amiga would be > real popular. We ported it. It wasn't. Not even paired with > Dale Luck's X Window to turn the Amiga into an X term. I remember that - I was working with VAXen every day when I got my own Amiga in 1986, but never had the desire to hook it to our DECnet network (it didn't help that we didn't have a scrap of Ethernet hardware - all of our DECnet was over DDCMP and sync serial, and contained in about a 25' radius. It was all local terminals and SET/HOST to get from one box to another). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 16:34:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:34:07 -0400 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9CF@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> <20070601114603.Y47933@shell.lmi.net> <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9CF@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > I know what you mean ... about a year ago I searched for a program > running on a PC, but could execute 68000 code, preferably free :-) MAME and MESS have 68000 engines, but you are on your own for building up enough virtual I/O to be able to communicate with your code. You could always extract the CPU engine from the codebase and tack on some sort of ICE-like interface. Don't know of any out-of-the-box generic 68K emulators for PCs. If I had to test-run 68000 code, I'd consider a Palm emulator, or an Amiga emulator or a Classic Mac emulator - whatever environment seemed to make the most sense. If I had a serious bit of code hacking to do, I'd consider doing it on a real Amiga, since I have lots and lots of experience on it. YMMV. -ethan From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:07:11 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:07:11 -0500 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730706011507p68f198c7w44710206624d5b83@mail.gmail.com> On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: > I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased > some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not > include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still > needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says > it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? > Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? I'm not aware of any SGI hobbyist program, but I've also not installed any version of IRIX that asked for a license key, either. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 16:57:44 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:57:44 -0500 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com>, <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46609658.10305@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jun 2007 at 14:51, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Surely it's as much effort whether circuits repeat or not? Don't you still >> have to check all possible interconnects to make sure that you've got >> everything traced right, even if a quick visual inspection might make it >> appear that there's a lot of repetition? > > So, you're saying that it's easier deciphering a PCB with a couple of > 544-conductor house-numbered BGAs on it than working through a PCB > with 1000 discretes? No - I'm saying that surely a 1000 transistor board with circuits that repeat is no more or less difficult than a 1000 transistor board where nothing repeats; the level of effort required is largely the same as it's tracing the interconnects which takes the bulk of the time, and that's got to be done fully for both boards to guarantee an accurate schematic. (All of which probably means that the number of PCB layers is irrelevant too - the critical thing is the number of solder points) I'm not disputing that doing a 1000 transistor board is easier than something with BGAs on it... :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 17:04:52 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:04:52 -0500 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased > some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not > include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still > needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says > it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? > Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? I believe it "merely" means that it would be illegal to install IRIX on any hardware if you don't possess a valid licence key for it; I don't think any of the IRIX OS releases are locked in any way and *need* some sort of key to function. I do recall feeding keys into the OS (6.5.3) for certain high-end video software many years ago though, so certainly some *apps* are crippled without appropriate licences (how easy it would be to circumvent that, I don't know) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jun 1 17:20:45 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, Richard wrote: > I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased > some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not > include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still > needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says > it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? > Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? By having a computer that runs Irix, SGI presumes you have the right to install and run it. The licenses part comes from the fact that some components are not included in this deal, though they are present on the install media. For a barebones Irix system, this is typically the MIPSpro development suite. The license key is a hash that may or may not be tied to a particular machine and may or may not expire. The key is served up by a daemon that handles multiple keys for assorted software you might have installed. For example: one key for the GIS viewer, one for the rock layer simulator, one for the seismology package, one for the math package, one for the database, etc. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jun 1 17:27:10 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 1 Jun 2007 15:27:10 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <1180736830.46609d3e8c55f@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Gordon JC Pearce : > I saw a TV programme about this a couple of years ago - seems that > someone investigating the Hindenburg explosion had turned up a book of > fabric samples painted with various dopes and exposed to large electric > sparks. > > Most had small holes from about the size of a pin prick up to ones > resembling a fag burn in a car seat. Then they turned to the page with > the fabric and dope used on the Hindenburg - it was almost completely > burnt away! I don't speak (or read) much German but I can recognise > text that says "DO NOT USE THIS STUFF WHATEVER ELSE YOU DO!", but it > seems that they *did* use it... > > Gordon Mythbusters did the hindenburg experiment on one of their shows last season (i think it was) and they did get some thermite reaction from the standard mix, but to get a full reaction they had to paint the model of the 'berg with a mix that had so much aluminum in it that the 'burg wouldn't have been able to get off the ground. From james.rice at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:23:47 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:23:47 -0500 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706011507p68f198c7w44710206624d5b83@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730706011507p68f198c7w44710206624d5b83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Jason T wrote: > > On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: > > I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased > > some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not > > include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still > > needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says > > it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? > > Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? > > I'm not aware of any SGI hobbyist program, but I've also not installed > any version of IRIX that asked for a license key, either. > There is no hobbyist program but Sgi turns a blind eye to hobbyist's use of Irix for non-commercial uses. There is no license key needed to install and the m-stream updates for 6.5 to 6.5.23 are available for download at sgi.com with a free Supportfolio account. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 17:20:59 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:20:59 -0500 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> <20070601114603.Y47933@shell.lmi.net> <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9CF@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <46609BCB.3050404@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/1/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: >> I know what you mean ... about a year ago I searched for a program >> running on a PC, but could execute 68000 code, preferably free :-) > > MAME and MESS have 68000 engines, but you are on your own for building > up enough virtual I/O to be able to communicate with your code. You > could always extract the CPU engine from the codebase and tack on some > sort of ICE-like interface. > > Don't know of any out-of-the-box generic 68K emulators for PCs. This page looks quite promising: http://linux.cis.monroeccc.edu/~paulrsm I thought I had a 68k emulator for DOS years ago, but can't find it now (but nor can I find any of my other DOS-era emulators, which means I've stuffed them on tape somewhere and buried them deep in storage :-) I've never heard of the 68301 before, but a few pages found via google suggest it runs standard 68K code. From james.rice at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:38:46 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:38:46 -0500 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Richard wrote: > > I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased > > some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not > > include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still > > needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says > > it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? > > Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? > > I believe it "merely" means that it would be illegal to install IRIX on > any > hardware if you don't possess a valid licence key for it; I don't think > any of > the IRIX OS releases are locked in any way and *need* some sort of key to > function. > > I do recall feeding keys into the OS (6.5.3) for certain high-end video > software many years ago though, so certainly some *apps* are crippled > without > appropriate licences (how easy it would be to circumvent that, I don't > know) Sgi's position on Irix as explained by a sales droid in the Dallas office was: "Sgi hardware has an implicit license to run the release of Irix installed on the machine at the time it's support contract expires. The unspoken position of the company is you can run any version of the software that you can find media to install if from. We will sell you a copy of the media for $600 but you must purchase a support contract first. But I can't sell you a support contract for your Indy as it has been declared obsolete and EOL. So you are caugfht in a Catch-22. I can't officially tell you to go to eBay and look for a set of media but that is probably the best source at this time." This was in 2001 when I purchased my first Indy. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 17:36:40 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:36:40 -0500 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601173344.0746f438@mail> At 05:04 PM 6/1/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >I do recall feeding keys into the OS (6.5.3) for certain high-end video software many years ago though, so certainly some *apps* are crippled without appropriate licences (how easy it would be to circumvent that, I don't know) I unloaded a bunch of IRIX-related CDs on eBay a half-dozen years ago. They sold well. Maybe media was in short supply back then. Each SGI does have a unique serial number that can be queried from software, so some third-party packages did handshake an installation key. IRIX doesn't do it, as far as I remember. You might discover that some sold-separately SGI software might use it, though. By now, I imagine it's well-hacked. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 17:53:41 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:53:41 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <1180736830.46609d3e8c55f@secure.zipcon.net> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <1180736830.46609d3e8c55f@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <4660A375.60506@jetnet.ab.ca> Geoff Reed wrote: > Mythbusters did the hindenburg experiment on one of their shows last season (i > think it was) and they did get some thermite reaction from the standard mix, but > to get a full reaction they had to paint the model of the 'berg with a mix that > had so much aluminum in it that the 'burg wouldn't have been able to get off the > ground. But the one of the arguments from the news reels was the bright flames. Hydrogen + Oxygen does give a flame you can see. Also once you got your hole burning then does the hydrogen kick in. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jun 1 18:03:20 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601173344.0746f438@mail> References: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601173344.0746f438@mail> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, John Foust wrote: > At 05:04 PM 6/1/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > >I do recall feeding keys into the OS (6.5.3) for certain high-end video software many years ago though, so certainly some *apps* are crippled without appropriate licences (how easy it would be to circumvent that, I don't know) > > I unloaded a bunch of IRIX-related CDs on eBay a half-dozen years ago. > They sold well. Maybe media was in short supply back then. > > Each SGI does have a unique serial number that can be queried > from software, so some third-party packages did handshake an > installation key. IRIX doesn't do it, as far as I remember. > You might discover that some sold-separately SGI software > might use it, though. By now, I imagine it's well-hacked. MIPSpro (SGI's compilers) are the only things on the install CDs that use keys IIRC. One should be just fine installing gcc and friends from pkgsrc. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 18:20:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:20:07 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <4660A375.60506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <1180736830.46609d3e8c55f@secure.zipcon.net>, <4660A375.60506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46604737.21180.6F4803A@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 16:53, woodelf wrote: > But the one of the arguments from the news reels was the bright flames. > Hydrogen + Oxygen does give a flame you can see. Also once you got > your hole burning then does the hydrogen kick in. Maybe you can see a hydrogen flame because you've got vision into the UV. But a hydrogen flame is very difficult to see in normal illumination (and just about impossible under daylight conditions) for mere humans. See, for instance: http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/h2safety.html I remember from my misspent college summers working as an instrumentation tech at a steel mill that one needed a special detector to see a hydrogen flame. Those of us who worked at the hydrogen-generating plant were warned about this. Hydrogen in quantity is nasty stuff--we had to check our toolbelts, matches, cigarette lighters and any steel pocket contents at the gate, lest we would cuase a spark and ignite the stuff (the range of explosive mixtures of H2 and O2 is very wide). I learned how blunt a sparkproof screwdriver could get in no time at all. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 18:30:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:30:13 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <46604737.21180.6F4803A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <1180736830.46609d3e8c55f@secure.zipcon.net>, <4660A375.60506@jetnet.ab.ca> <46604737.21180.6F4803A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4660AC05.8080206@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > See, for instance: > > http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/h2safety.html > > I remember from my misspent college summers working as an > instrumentation tech at a steel mill that one needed a special > detector to see a hydrogen flame. Those of us who worked at the > hydrogen-generating plant were warned about this. Hydrogen in > quantity is nasty stuff--we had to check our toolbelts, matches, > cigarette lighters and any steel pocket contents at the gate, lest we > would cuase a spark and ignite the stuff (the range of explosive > mixtures of H2 and O2 is very wide). I learned how blunt a > sparkproof screwdriver could get in no time at all. Sigh ... I thought I typed *not* in their. > Cheers, > Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 18:35:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:35:20 -0600 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:04:52 -0500. <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <46609804.5050509 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > I do recall feeding keys into the OS (6.5.3) for certain high-end video > software many years ago though, so certainly some *apps* are crippled without > appropriate licences (how easy it would be to circumvent that, I don't know) Yeah, I'm familiar with apps being license-locked. FlexLM was a common licensing scheme for that sort of thing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 18:36:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:36:30 -0600 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:20:45 -0700. Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > [...] For a barebones Irix system, this is typically the MIPSpro > development suite. Yes, this bundle did include development software. I guess people just use gcc these days and ignore the stuff that came from SGI? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 18:36:11 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:36:11 -0400 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. In-Reply-To: <001901c7a46b$e07e2d90$8b04010a@uatempname> References: <001901c7a46b$e07e2d90$8b04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <4660AD6B.6010309@gmail.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Sounds like a good idea. How do I do that? > > You configure the 4000-200 into a cluster (of one). > Then you tell it that it will have the VAX 4000-300 > as a LAVC cluster member. Then boot the VAX 4000-300 > into the cluster. Then proceed as I outlined > previously. And if you want to know how to do that, per se, RTFM at: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/os73_index.html Much of the v7.3 documentation there applies fairly well to older versions. Peace... Sridhar From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 1 18:42:50 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:42:50 -0500 Subject: usenet nostalgia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4660AEFA.7020903@oldskool.org> Mike Loewen wrote: > On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, Richard wrote: > >> Usenet had the same proportion of asshole users back then, just that >> they were fewer in absolute number because the size of the total users >> was less. I dealt with plenty of asshole users on usenet, even in >> 1988. > > And before that time, the BBS systems had pretty much the same types > of users. People write things from behind a screen which they would > never say to your face. All this is true, however back then you couldn't be a complete moron and yet still have the tech skills to get online to have these discussions. So while the debates were heated, you were generally talking to non-idiots just due to the nature of the discussion medium. That's mostly what I miss from the early to mid-1980s era of computing. The ratio of stone cold idiots online is orders of magnitude higher today than it was back then. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 1 18:46:00 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:46:00 -0500 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This is a fascinating, if somewhat qualitative, comparison of user > interface and functionality of a Mac Plus and an AMD dual core. > Presented without further commentary. > > http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins A bit skewed, to say the least. The AMD would have won if it were running a Mac Plus emulator, for example :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 18:53:55 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Byte magazines in SF for library or museum Message-ID: <20070601164715.B47933@shell.lmi.net> There are some Byte magazines available to a public access home: > I have a fairly complete series of Byte magazine issues from 1/78 > through 12/88 (missing seven issues) that I no longer have space for. I > am looking for a library or museum to provide them with a good home -- > someplace with public access. I can deliver them within the San > Francisco Bay Area. If interested, contact Harry Chesley at > chesley at acm.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 19:06:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:06:45 -0700 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff In-Reply-To: <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net>, <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46605225.4480.71F2F31@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 16:53, Alexandre Souza wrote: > I'm working into some 68301 (68000 for embbedded applications) > old-equipment stuff. I'm completely lost into everything, I cannot even > decompile/simulate the code on PC. Maybe some good and candid soul would > lend a hand at least to get me started? I need only to do a very small mod > into the program, but first need to understand how it works. One of the best tools that I know of to do this is IDA Pro. It'll graph and allow you to step and debug 68K code, in addition to disassembling it. The drawback is that it's expensive--about USD$500 for a single license. For a one-off, it's probably not worth the cost, but if you do this kind of thing for a living, it pays for itself very quickly. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 1 18:38:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 00:38:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <3afee7520705311814y3f7f564fh545841f1a2bda1aa@mail.gmail.com> from "Erik Klein" at May 31, 7 06:14:23 pm Message-ID: > As it turns out, you (and just about everyone else who chimed in) were > right - the repair was easy and nothing else in the PS was damaged. > > I found a power supply at my local junque place with the right cap and > used it to replace my blown one. The /// is back up and running fine. > It'll be off to its new owner shortly. See, it wasn;'t too bad, now was it? Hopefully next time you hav a fault you'll consider component level repair... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 19:33:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 20:33:02 -0400 Subject: Booting a Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <106559.53102.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <106559.53102.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, the consensus is that I really don't need that > RDM board in order to boot the Vax. I concur. > So, I'm going to > go ahead and see if I can boot something (anything) on > this machine. I figure I'll start with NetBSD, since > it's free and easy to get. Sure. > I have no disk controller. But I do have an M7454 TU80 > controller. Will this controller work with a normal > pertec tape drive, like a Cipher? Perhaps. I think I've gone the other way (hung a TU80 off of a 3rd party Qbus tape controller like a TC131), so I don't _think_ there's anything strange. Unfortunately, I don't think you'll see too much in the way of bootable 9-track tapes for the VAX. PDP-11s of the right era routinely installed from a bootable magtape, but not VAXen. Instead, they have some console medium (11/780 == RX01, 11/750 and 11/730 == TU58, VAX8600 == RL02, VAX 8200 == RX50...) The 11/750 is a bit off for the oldest types of VAXen in that it doesn't have a dedicated boot processor, but in other ways, it's typical of the 11/7xx line. > Since I have SCSI nine track drives, I can write a > tape from my PC (linux box) and then I can move the > tape over to the Vax. (hopefully). Once there, how do > I boot - is the boot device switch controlled by the > RDM, or something else? There's a switch on the front of your VAX with positions from A-D. Each position corresponds to a bipolar PROM socket on one of the CPU boards. Typically, your preferred boot ROM goes into A, and the one for TU58 goes into D. We had a DR boot (for our SI9900), a DU boot (UDA50) and a DD(?) boot for TU58. I don't recall there being a TS or TM boot for the 11/750, but you could dig around. I suppose you could enter any random bootstrap into Console ODT, but we never did that. The usual technique for booting a blank 11/750 with some OS was to start with the install kit, a stack of TU58s and magtapes. You boot the first TU58, then follow the directions to insert the remaining ones as required, to get into some standalone restore utility. At some point, it's all loaded, then activity turns to siphoning whatever tape drive onto whatever disk drive, then rebooting the disk to complete the install. The software is all different, but the technique was the same for Ultrix or VMS, back in the day. It's entirely possible that BSD has a different technique, but since we never had a boot ROM for tape drives, I don't think that's how we installed 4.0BSD when we were running it on our 11/750 (I personally only ever installed VMS and Ultrix). If you can't get a stack of TU58s with the right restore application on them, your next best bet is likely to be some flavor of TU58 emulator and images files from a modern machine. I don't think there's an easy way away from that except to pre-load a disk image external to the 11/750 then boot the 11/750 "in the middle" of the established install procedure. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 19:52:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:52:43 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> This is a fascinating, if somewhat qualitative, comparison of user >> interface and functionality of a Mac Plus and an AMD dual core. >> Presented without further commentary. >> >> http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins >> > > A bit skewed, to say the least. The AMD would have won if it were > running a Mac Plus emulator, for example :-) I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into MS-DOS 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? I tried to time it, but I couldn't. There was not enough time between the end of POST and when the C:\> prompt came up that I couldn't physically click the stopwatch fast enough. And that's *with* a whole load of crap running on startup, including QEMM. I'd guess maybe 1/5 second. And I am fairly certain that DOS is using only one of the CPU cores. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 20:16:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:16:27 -0700 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com>, <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org>, <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 20:52, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into MS-DOS > 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? There was a PS/2 with DOS-in-ROM. I wonder how fast that boots. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 20:17:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:17:08 -0700 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com>, <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org>, <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <466062A4.10046.75FA154@cclist.sydex.com> ...make that a PS/1. --Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 1 21:17:53 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 03:17:53 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info><11c909eb0706010225i2fccd17fyb0b784e349e5dc6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <021301c7a4bc$3a65b760$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Probably worth about $50 USD as untested spare parts. >Not worth the petrol to drag it home in my opinion. Has the thing actually even got any boards in it? It's a bit difficult to tell from those pictures. And he's got the nerve to charge 17.5% VAT on top as well...! TTFN - Pete. From lee at geekdot.com Fri Jun 1 21:18:05 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 04:18:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff Message-ID: <2665.82.71.40.17.1180750685.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> For running generic 68000 code on a PC you can't do much better than this .. http://www.monroeccc.edu/ckelly/EASy68K.htm Lee. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 1 21:34:11 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 03:34:11 +0100 Subject: DRAM camera sensor References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com><20070531155019.H32124@shell.lmi.net> <46607980.9010109@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <026001c7a4be$80c0d0d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > There was at least one UK computer magazine which carried such >a project too - unfortunately I can't remember which one, let >alone which year :-( I vaguely remember "Practical Electronics" (could have been "ETI", but I don't think so) carrying some sort of digital camera project around about 1980/81(ish), but I have a feeling it was based on a CCD sensor; IIRC the accompanying article mentioned being able to use expoded DRAMs as image sensors (the first time I became aware of this). TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 1 21:44:05 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 03:44:05 +0100 Subject: DRAM camera sensor References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com><20070531155019.H32124@shell.lmi.net><46607980.9010109@yahoo.co.uk> <026001c7a4be$80c0d0d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <027f01c7a4bf$e347a2a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Whoops! >....use expoded DRAMs.... I did of course mean "exposed". But then that conjures up images of a shifty looking DRAM, wearing a low wide brimmed hat and a dirty raingoat.... ROFL TTFN - Pete. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 1 22:00:03 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 23:00:03 -0400 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <021301c7a4bc$3a65b760$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> <021301c7a4bc$3a65b760$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706012300.03786.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 01 June 2007 22:17, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > Probably worth about $50 USD as untested spare parts. > >Not worth the petrol to drag it home in my opinion. > > Has the thing actually even got any boards in it? It's a bit difficult > to tell from those pictures. Actually, it's easy to tell, you can see all of the boards in the machine (except for the backplanes, but it seems unlikely that they'd be missing if the boards arent). As far as I can tell from the crappy, low resolution pictures he's got, it probably isn't missing any boards. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 22:07:26 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 23:07:26 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com>, <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org>, <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4660DEEE.80602@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jun 2007 at 20:52, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>> I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into > MS-DOS >> 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? > > There was a PS/2 with DOS-in-ROM. I wonder how fast that boots. PS/1. I have one. My Athlon boots faster. Peace... Sridhar From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Jun 1 22:22:29 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 20:22:29 -0700 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? Message-ID: <47c287117c67417893972c2eefbe8226@valleyimplants.com> > MIPSpro (SGI's compilers) are the only things on the install CDs that > use > keys IIRC. One should be just fine installing gcc and friends from > pkgsrc. MIPSpro is not included in the default software library from SGI. What is included is the "IRIX Development Libraries" and "IRIX Development Foundations" which provide the headers, static libraries, and a few development tools (but not compilers). For IRIX 5.3, the full IDO (with C compiler) is downloadable from ftp.sgi.com, for IRIX 6.2 the IDF/IDL parts are on ftp.sgi.com (IRIX 6.2 did not ship with the development tools and headers as standard). Many versions of MIPSpro function as "nagware" and will still compile while you're waiting for your license from SGI, or developer program members get access to an account on a Origin running the latest MIPSpro compilers. No official hobbyist program, there just isn't any return in it for SGI (the MIPS-based IRISes were discontinued in December). From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 1 23:15:59 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 21:15:59 -0700 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:36 PM -0600 6/1/07, Richard wrote: >Yes, this bundle did include development software. I guess people >just use gcc these days and ignore the stuff that came from SGI? I think most people simply run whatever version of MIPSpro tools they can if at all possible. The SGI compilers are desirable. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 2 00:14:12 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 01:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <46609658.10305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com>, <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> <46609658.10305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200706020517.BAA26023@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > (All of which probably means that the number of PCB layers is > irrelevant too - the critical thing is the number of solder points) I dunno. I find single- and double-sided boards substantially easier than three- or more-layer boards, simply because there are no connections buried in the board and thus invisible; the only thing making it impossible to completely trace the circuit by eye is etch runs disappearing under components. (While this happens, it happens seldom enough, at least in my experience, to account for the ease I mention.) It also might be nothing more than that being single- or double-sided correlates positively with having low component density in the pc boards I've tried to trace. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 2 00:17:57 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 00:17:57 -0500 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4660FD85.1050703@oldskool.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I tried to time it, but I couldn't. There was not enough time between > the end of POST and when the C:\> prompt came up that I couldn't > physically click the stopwatch fast enough. And that's *with* a whole > load of crap running on startup, including QEMM. I'd guess maybe 1/5 > second. Aha! I call BS! I load QEMM on startup too, and it pauses for a good 2-3 seconds while it counts up 256MB of RAM. :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 2 00:18:50 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 00:18:50 -0500 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com>, <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org>, <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4660FDBA.30608@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jun 2007 at 20:52, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>> I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into > MS-DOS >> 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? > > There was a PS/2 with DOS-in-ROM. I wonder how fast that boots. Sure you aren't thinking of the Tandy TL series? Those has DOS in ROM. I don't know of any PS/2 with DOS in ROM. And yes, they boot hella fast -- about 1.5 seconds after you hit the reset button. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 00:45:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 01:45:34 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660FD85.1050703@oldskool.org> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> <4660FD85.1050703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <466103FE.70107@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I tried to time it, but I couldn't. There was not enough time between >> the end of POST and when the C:\> prompt came up that I couldn't >> physically click the stopwatch fast enough. And that's *with* a whole >> load of crap running on startup, including QEMM. I'd guess maybe 1/5 >> second. > > Aha! I call BS! I load QEMM on startup too, and it pauses for a good > 2-3 seconds while it counts up 256MB of RAM. > > :-) Hehehehe. Nope. Goes *zoink* all the way up in a split second. I couldn't have been more surprised. Was a big difference from the previous box I used to play DOS games on, a 150MHz Pentium with 32MB RAM. (Which is pretty fast with DOS too, incidentally. Its SoundBlaster AWE64 absolutely rocked the MIDI support in DOS games too.) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 00:47:00 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 01:47:00 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660FDBA.30608@oldskool.org> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com>, <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org>, <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> <4660FDBA.30608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46610454.2080409@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 1 Jun 2007 at 20:52, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>>> I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into >> MS-DOS >>> 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? >> >> There was a PS/2 with DOS-in-ROM. I wonder how fast that boots. > > Sure you aren't thinking of the Tandy TL series? Those has DOS in ROM. > I don't know of any PS/2 with DOS in ROM. Like he and I both wrote earlier, it was actually a PS/1. If you want more information, I can head into the attic and dig up the machine to get you an IBM type-model number. The only problem with that machine is that the DOS (for obvious reasons) can't be upgraded. Peace... Sridhar From grant at stockly.com Sat Jun 2 00:56:28 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:56:28 -0800 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070601212154.02f71d08@pop.1and1.com> At 03:46 PM 6/1/2007, you wrote: >Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>This is a fascinating, if somewhat qualitative, comparison of user >>interface and functionality of a Mac Plus and an AMD dual core. >>Presented without further commentary. >>http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins > >A bit skewed, to say the least. The AMD would have won if it were running >a Mac Plus emulator, for example :-) It students today learned how to program by toggling switches, maybe we'd have more people writing tight and efficient code. : ) From james at machineroom.info Fri Jun 1 15:16:15 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:16:15 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <4660798E.4030204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <4660798E.4030204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46607E8F.5020601@machineroom.info> woodelf wrote: > Rod Smallwood wrote: >> "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." >> "Long time passing" >> "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." >> "Long time ago..." " To the scrap man ... Every one... " >> >> "Where have all the power supplies gone etc. etc." > > Chuckle ... I have Bod Dylan on the CD ... so by luck I had the > music to go with lyrics. :) > :-) I've messaged the seller in case it doesn't sell that I'm sure someone here would be happy to take it instead of sending to the scrapper. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jun 1 15:26:57 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 21:26:57 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F83@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> There's so little of it left, mores the pity. I wonder if the guy was sold it as a rare item (which it is) without being told a lot of it was missing. Rod Smallwood The DecCollector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: 01 June 2007 20:55 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! Rod Smallwood wrote: > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > "Long time passing" > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > "Long time ago..." > " To the scrap man ... Every one... " > > "Where have all the power supplies gone etc. etc." Chuckle ... I have Bod Dylan on the CD ... so by luck I had the music to go with lyrics. :) From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:01:15 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 18:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 May 2007, Tony Duell wrote: >> Wasn't there a similar issue with the hard drive low-level formatter, in that >> it was never released by Apple - so you couldn't take a Lisa ProFile and >> format it for a ///, and nor could you do drive replacement in the field - >> instead the whole faulty unit presumably got sent back to Apple for repair. > > Wasn't there one drive -- and I think it was an Apple -- where you had to > temprorially replace a microcontroller chip to be able to do a low-level > format? And of course that specially-programemd microcontrolller was > never avaialble to normal customers. Yes, that would be the ProFile hard disk unit. You swap in a "piggyback" Z8 MPU with special EPROM for the masked-ROM version and have at it with a special tool suite on the Apple ///. I have resurrected several dead units by using the HDA assembly from a vanilla Seagate ST-506 (I think that's the one - from memory) with the proprietary Apple electronics. Unfortunately, the collection of software I was able to get my hands on was missing the 10MB format utility so I've never been able to get a 10M ProFile fixed. If anyone has a line on this, please contact me privately? Ditto if you need the hex image or the diagnostic software. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:07:38 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 18:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 May 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/31/07, Fred Cisin wrote: >> The major advantage of Aztec (Manx) C was to be able to run essentially >> the same compiler on multiple microcomputer platforms. That was >> especially useful, since before "ANSI C", there were lots of "minor" >> variations from one K&R C to another.... I AM NOT asking what >> "should be", I'm talking about comparing what compiler authors thought. > > One that varies from platform to platform: > > What does "char *p = NULL; return(strlen(p));" do? > > On some machines, it returns 0. On others, it segfaults because you > asked it to dereference a null pointer. Both are "correct" behavior > because the official behavior is "undefined". > > Ran into that one when someone tried to port some code from an NCR box > to a Sun box (yes, 10 years ago ;-) It worked "fine" on the NCR box, > but when it "broke" on the Sun, some of the NCR guys tried to claim it > was proof that NCRs were better than Suns (what, because it won't let > you slide by when you depend on undefined behavior behaving in a > particular way?) I don't actually think the C standard specifies a behavior for this. I can also tell you that even nowadays AIX will cheerfully permit you to dereference a null pointer. Steve -- From bear at typewritten.org Sat Jun 2 01:56:46 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 23:56:46 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200706011024.l51AOwHq021589@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 31, 7 04:24:49 pm" <200706011024.l51AOwHq021589@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <05326FBB-2135-4473-86E8-4CEB7B0070AF@typewritten.org> On Jun 1, 2007, at 4:22 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Btw, technically, according to the standard, the compiler is > free to say: > N = 1 > Humm... undefined behaviour... > A[500] = 9999 > N = -1 > Although I've never seen an implementation which actually > does this - usually you can fine some logical reason for the > results. I think this is what's traditionally meant by "nose demons." ok bear From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 02:12:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 03:12:25 -0400 Subject: Looking for Hardware Message-ID: <46611859.8060607@gmail.com> Please let me know if you have this hardware you wouldn't mind letting go for a small sum of money, or if you know where I might be able to find any of this hardware cheap. Thanks. IBM XT-286 Motherboard (I have a dead one that needs replacing) Kingston SX Now! 386 upgrade (For my beloved PS/2 Mod 50) Any AT-class memory boards (including EMS ones, obviously XMS preferred) Again, thanks. Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 2 02:27:52 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 00:27:52 -0700 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) References: Message-ID: <46611BEF.82210D41@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > "Ethan Dicks" writes: > > TCP/IP took a while to trickle down from > > Workstations to Micros. > > Agreed. I think it was the web browser that pushed the adoption and > integration of TCP/IP. Although chronologically they're pretty close, I'd say it was the opening of the internet to general public access circa 1989/90 that pushed such adoption (the final battle in the protocol wars). At that point TCP/IP became mandatory to connect to the "information highway" (remember that quaint phrase?), any system that didn't provide TCP/IP wasn't going to receive much attention, and all those competing/proprietary protocols (DECNET,SNA,OSI,etc.) became superfluous (specialised capabilities notwithstanding). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 2 02:29:13 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 00:29:13 -0700 Subject: discrete-component reverse engineering / was Re: Apple /// Power Supply References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com>, <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> <46609658.10305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46611C40.19FEECFB@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 1 Jun 2007 at 14:51, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > >> Surely it's as much effort whether circuits repeat or not? Don't you still > >> have to check all possible interconnects to make sure that you've got > >> everything traced right, even if a quick visual inspection might make it > >> appear that there's a lot of repetition? > > > > So, you're saying that it's easier deciphering a PCB with a couple of > > 544-conductor house-numbered BGAs on it than working through a PCB > > with 1000 discretes? > > No - I'm saying that surely a 1000 transistor board with circuits that repeat > is no more or less difficult than a 1000 transistor board where nothing > repeats; the level of effort required is largely the same as it's tracing the > interconnects which takes the bulk of the time, and that's got to be done > fully for both boards to guarantee an accurate schematic. (All of which > probably means that the number of PCB layers is irrelevant too - the critical > thing is the number of solder points) I'd have to say (based on experience) the repetition helps very much in reducing the work effort. Once you have figured out the repeating patterns (i.e. the standard gate construction, flip-flop construction, etc.), you can in large measure stop drawing at the discrete level and draw at the gate level. You still want to check all the internal connections within that gate/repeating pattern for something oddball, so yes, you are right that you do have to go through all the connections, but you don't have to draw it all out. You do a visual confirmation that the gate/whatever conforms to the repeating pattern and then spend your time tracing and drawing the gate/whatever input and output circuits. .. One can also think of it in terms of information content: the info content of 1000 elements arrayed with a repeating pattern is less than that of a purely random array of 1000 elements, and once you can do the compression processing (recognising the patterns) in your head, communicating it over the low speed link (drawing it on paper) takes less time. :) I actually like RE'ing discrete-component digital logic precisely to find out what the repeating patterns are (i.e. how the designers chose to implement gates and flop-flops (in the discrete days there were other flip-flop variations besides JK,SR and D)). Even with analog circuits a lot of design characteristics standard to the system cn become recognisable and make things easier. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jun 2 03:56:12 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 10:56:12 +0200 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <20070602105612.444c9048@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Thu, 31 May 2007 09:48:08 +0100 "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > These things are not that big but weigh a ton!! The guy selling it was > lot larger than I (thank heavans!) > I did not know the suspension in may car went that low! > There it sat until Tuesday evening when my son (6'4" & 210pounds) > who's a trained weight lifter helped me ge it out of the car and onto > its wheels. Remove the PSU, the disk / tape drives and probably the metal covers from the QBus slots. Nearly halfs the weight. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 2 06:05:13 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 06:05:13 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe/gs/ older-Macs available in Fargo ND Message-ID: <200706021008.l52A8D5U003063@hosting.monisys.ca> I've been contacted by a lady in Fargo ND which an Apple IIe, IIgs and some older Macs. Also mentions printers, accessories, software and magazines all pertaining to Apple. She mentioned "a least pay cost of shipping", so I don't think she is looking to get anything for them. If anyone wants to give them a home, please contact me and I'll forward her email. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From darin.lory at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 06:05:22 2007 From: darin.lory at gmail.com (Darin Lory) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:05:22 -0400 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <200706020039.l520cmsg081055@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706020039.l520cmsg081055@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <2790DEF6-6C95-4C89-896F-B51CB7E99C0A@gmail.com> Richard, As most of group have mentioned that you need a support contract or purchase the MIPSpro compilers (C, C++, F77, F90, Auto- parallelization, GNAT Pro ADA 95) specifically for your host which you intend to run on. The FlexLM license file is in /var/flexlm/ license.dat. You might want to check your IRIX workstation or server you are doing your IRIX install on, and see if you already have any licenses in this file. You might be surprised if your SGI might have previously been licensed. You can print out or copy this file for safe keeping. Upgrading within IRIX 6.5.x will not modify this file. You will need to contact your local sales office (http://www.sgi.com/ sales/ ) or call SGI at (800) 800-7441 or (650) 960-1980 if you need a license. You will probably need a quote for a 2CPU license (even if you are running on a 1 CPU workstation). Depending on the version of IRIX, it did place some freebie licenses in there. They also used to produce a "HotMix" CD with all the sample or open license software. I believe I still have a lot of these HotMix CDs from IRIX 5.3, 6.2, 6.3, 6.4. I would suggest that you setup a free Supportfolio account and see what you have access to. https://support.sgi.com/login SGI will give you a 30 or 90 EVALUATION license for any software, so you can try out the MIPSpro compilers and see if you want to go for the cost of the software http://www.sgi.com/support/licensing/ . The MIPSpro compilers really take advantage of the SGI architecture and IRIX, more so than GNU software. But depending on what you need, GNU compilers might be fine for what you are doing. Some of the Development tools (http://www.sgi.com/developers/ technology/irix/tools.html more info) you can download and may get a PERMANENT license for ANY host (HOSTID=ANY in license.dat). You can download most of the available software (except compilers) at http://www.sgi.com/products/evaluation/ It will note what type of license (like FREE or no license needed). Most of the stuff that might interest you are things like Cosmo Player, Open Office, Message Passing Toolkit 1.9 and Parallel Virtual Machine-PVM (I have PDF version of non-copyright books on PVM and MPI if you need them), Java (1.4.1_06 which is NOT DST compliant without a patch that they created from a bug report I placed, but should be available from Supportfolio). If you don't want to purchase the MIPSpro compilers, the GNU compilers are available. All Freeware software is at http:// freeware.sgi.com/ and all the manuals/books are at Techpubs in HTML and PDF format http://techpubs.sgi.com . C++ coding standard for IRIX and GNU C++ are at http://www.sgi.com/tech/mlc/docs/cc-coding.ps I suggest if you can get it, to install IRIX 6.5.22 or later. IRIX 6.5.30 is the latest. You can then install the DST (Daylight Savings Time) patch for IRIX 6.5.22 to 6.5.30 (new patch for 6.5.30). IRIX 6.5.2f to 6.5.21f (f for Feature set, m for maintenance) require you to download a new tzdata file (from tp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/), modify /etc/TIMEZONE, and run the zic compiler for your locale. I can email you or provide you all this information if you need it. I also wrote TONS of documentation for work on installing IRIX, startup/shutdown procedures, backup procedures and I can send that to you also. I have expertise on IRIX 4.0, 5.3, 6.2,6.3,6.4 and 6.5.x on all kinds of MIPS and SGI hardware from MIPS workstations, SGI Personal IRIS, Indys, Indigos, O2s, Octanes, Crimsons, and Origin servers (200, 300, 3800). But I only have Indys, O2s, Octanes, Origin servers, and maybe an Indigo Impact for me to use. Most of everything else was upgraded or replaced. Let me know if you need anything. I'd be happy to help you out. -Darin From darin.lory at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 06:20:58 2007 From: darin.lory at gmail.com (Darin Lory) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:20:58 -0400 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <2790DEF6-6C95-4C89-896F-B51CB7E99C0A@gmail.com> References: <200706020039.l520cmsg081055@dewey.classiccmp.org> <2790DEF6-6C95-4C89-896F-B51CB7E99C0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52199A8B-8903-4276-9121-E1E3974257AC@gmail.com> Richard, Tom G. Christiansen has compiled most of the freeware (even GNU C 4.2.0) for IRIX 5.3 and IRIX 6.2 if you are going to use those versions of IRIX. Check it out at http://www.jupiterrise.com/tgcware/ -Darin From dasbooterror at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 07:19:04 2007 From: dasbooterror at gmail.com (Joshua Benedetto) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:19:04 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) Message-ID: <21e211710706020519i587d05d9u18d3d624dd813f70@mail.gmail.com> As it goes, having actually run the gold scrapping grunt work (Read: Play with the Aqua regia) The reason you don't melt gold like that is the sheer amount of energy you have to waste to do it! Not to mention contaminating your final gold product with whatever crap is in the batch. As other people mentioned you can use mercury or cyanide agents, but good luck getting ether of those agents in any quantity, much less an EPA permit to use them for gold refining. Aqua Regia is bad enough, as you need to neutralize it before disposal. As it should be noted we refined chips, leads and anything gold plated Our usual contaminates were tin, lead, platinum, silver and iridium. ( Note: Using your left over Nitric Acid to make RDX does *NOT* count as disposal; However its a lot of fun) From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Jun 2 07:36:05 2007 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:36:05 -0500 Subject: HELP NEEDED - moving DEC PDP-8/A from Ottawa, Canada to VCF East (New Jersey) Message-ID: <000001c7a512$980f91a0$0401ffac@obie> Is anyone driving from or through Ottawa on the way to VCF East next weekend? I have an 8/A to pick up in Ottawa and will be at VCF. If you can provide help moving the (not small) system from Ottawa to New Jersey, I will be happy to pay $200 toward your gas expenses. An alternative might be someone traveling through Ottawa who could move it to Toronto or London (Canada!)in the near future, but the machine must be picked up in the next week or so. I'm on the digest version of classiccmp, so please feel free to contact me directly or call. TIA, Jack jack/dot/rubin/at/ameritech/dot/net 847.424.7320 work No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007 11:22 AM From JeLynch at stny.rr.com Sat Jun 2 09:01:54 2007 From: JeLynch at stny.rr.com (Jim Lynch) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:01:54 -0400 Subject: DRAM camera sensor In-Reply-To: <026001c7a4be$80c0d0d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> <20070531155019.H32124@shell.lmi.net> <46607980.9010109@yahoo.co.uk> <026001c7a4be$80c0d0d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706021401.l52E1x5L009507@ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com> Phase I (simple B&W): I used a Z-100 computer with a TI 256K DRAM (512 x 512). The video chip in the z-100 could be configured for 640 x 512 and the DRAM imager replaced one DRAM chip (ES) and was on a 1 foot tender (which is about the functional limit). Using a simple assembly code to read the DRAM transform the logic address to physical topology. Phase II (gray scale): more complex, used a memory board and replaced DRAM to a DRAM on tender. Programmed the DRAM controller for various refresh rates (soak time). Of course the other "bits" on the memory board were rendered useless. TI (and others) would publish a memory map to help with the topology decoding. Of course it did not directly address redundant bit lines. At 10:34 PM 6/1/2007, you wrote: >Hi, > > > There was at least one UK computer magazine which carried such > >a project too - unfortunately I can't remember which one, let > >alone which year :-( > >I vaguely remember "Practical Electronics" (could have been "ETI", >but I don't think so) carrying some sort of digital camera project >around about 1980/81(ish), but I have a feeling it was based on a >CCD sensor; IIRC the accompanying article mentioned being able to >use expoded DRAMs as image sensors (the first time I became aware of this). > > > TTFN - Pete. From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 2 09:26:01 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:26:01 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I noticed a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to make this since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I based this design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 days. It's made by Electronic Control Technology. Here's a link to the picture http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg There were several different styles made before--each with their own advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates 2 voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of solder pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the arrangement of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, grid, etc. If I get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. It's not much work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to include 2 pcb designs at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of S-100 designs. In the future, I like to setup a bigger panel to include several more S-100 designs. Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and intend to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is interested, with enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. please send any feedback. =Dan Roganti -- [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 10:21:25 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <46608CE0.4050603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <141896.85575.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Alexandre Souza wrote: > >>> I light thermite with glycerine + potassium > permanganate. > > > > How? > > Mix them. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80Q3GgeeIVM > > Peace... Sridhar I've heard of that also in my travels, but in the video it doesn't look like all of the thermit compound ignited. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 10:50:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <141896.85575.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <122245.53961.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> couldn't resist... http://www.guzer.com/videos/thermite_car.php just cuz it was French. LOL LOL and http://www.guzer.com/videos/thermite_ice.php were those simply flower pots or crucibles? Why didn't they just pour a pile of thermite on top of the hood? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 2 08:13:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:13:50 -0400 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? Message-ID: <0JJ000C83FELEH0H@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hazeltine 1400 info? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:27:23 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 31 May 2007 at 18:19, Allison wrote: > >> The 1400 series was after the 1500 series and was effectively a cost >> reduced (cheaper to build and sell) terminal. The 1400 was circa >> 1976-78 or so. > >Am I the only one who actually used one of these and hated it? I had >one hooked to an MDS800 development system. For the time, they were >inexpensive, but there were better terminals around--and the use of a >displayable character (tilde) as the escape code leadin made things >more trouble than the terminals were worth. I think I may even have >the code for a full-screen editor written in PL/M somewhere. I was working for Hazeltine terminals group at the time, one look at the 1400s and I left. There were a few things about it that suggested with better firmware it could be nice but didn't happen. My experience lead to buying a H19, a decent tube that I still have. Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 2 08:25:36 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:25:36 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F86@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well I tried it. The two systems were connected together with 50Ohm co-ax and terminators at both ends. I hooked in a hub that had a BNC connector to monitor what was going on. After running @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN on the -200 it became a boot server and I did a BOOT EZA0: on the -300. Both systems were talking to the network but ignored each other. On the console of the -300 it just printed 'Retrying Network Boot' for ever. Hardly a surprise wth no DecNet or TCP/IP running. Oh well back to trying to create a bootable tape and put MOP on my list of fables and fairy stories. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org Sent: 01 June 2007 17:43 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Rod Smallwood wrote: > Sounds like a good idea. How do I do that? You configure the 4000-200 into a cluster (of one). Then you tell it that it will have the VAX 4000-300 as a LAVC cluster member. Then boot the VAX 4000-300 into the cluster. Then proceed as I outlined previously. Antonio From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 2 08:31:53 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:31:53 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F87@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well I tried it. The two systems were connected together with 50Ohm co-ax and terminators at both ends. I hooked in a hub that had a BNC connector to monitor what was going on. After running @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN on the -200 it became a boot server and I did a BOOT EZA0: on the -300. Both systems were talking to the network but ignored each other. On the console of the -300 it just printed 'Retrying Network Boot' for ever. Hardly a surprise wth no DecNet or TCP/IP running. Oh well back to trying to create a bootable tape and put MOP on my list of fables and fairy stories. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: 02 June 2007 00:36 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Sounds like a good idea. How do I do that? > > You configure the 4000-200 into a cluster (of one). > Then you tell it that it will have the VAX 4000-300 as a LAVC cluster > member. Then boot the VAX 4000-300 into the cluster. Then proceed as I > outlined previously. And if you want to know how to do that, per se, RTFM at: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/os73_index.html Much of the v7.3 documentation there applies fairly well to older versions. Peace... Sridhar From dgreelish at mac.com Sat Jun 2 11:31:10 2007 From: dgreelish at mac.com (David Greelish) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 12:31:10 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <200706021224.l52CNevM090657@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706021224.l52CNevM090657@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com> Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:52:43 -0400 > From: Sridhar Ayengar > > Jim Leonard wrote: >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> This is a fascinating, if somewhat qualitative, comparison of user >>> interface and functionality of a Mac Plus and an AMD dual core. >>> Presented without further commentary. >>> >>> http://hubpages.com/hub/ >>> _86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins >>> >> >> A bit skewed, to say the least. The AMD would have won if it were >> running a Mac Plus emulator, for example :-) This is very interesting, and I'm sure true, but they're comparing the modern system as a modern system to the older one. The article makes a good point in regard to performing these basic office app tasks. > I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into > MS-DOS > 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on > that? The only thing is, in DOS, it won't function as a true GUI with true GUI apps, so the comparison is moot. How about GeoWorks Ensemble? How about Windows XP on a system with no additional "stuff" loaded, like anti-virus, etc. It's an interesting article, but just how optimized was this system for just office apps. Obviously the Mac Plus didn't go online, etc., but I get the point, it was a standard system then, compared to a standard system now. Where's the productivity advantage? Best, David David Greelish classiccomputing.com The Classic Computing Podcast Home of Computer History Nostalgia Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Jun 2 11:59:21 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:59:21 -0400 Subject: WTD: LDOS 5.1.3 for Lobo Max 80, Manual (paper/electronic) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070602125350.01369ad0@mail.degnanco.net> Hi - I finally got a Lobo Max 80 to boot http://www.vintagecomputer.net/lobo/ I'd like a copy of the LDOS 5.1.3 manual so that I can review the options and parameters associated with the dos commands. Thanks in advance Bill Degnan From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 2 12:28:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 11:28:05 -0600 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:13:50 -0400. <0JJ000C83FELEH0H@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: In article <0JJ000C83FELEH0H at vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, Allison writes: > I was working for Hazeltine terminals group at the time, one look at the > 1400s and I left. There were a few things about it that suggested with > better firmware it could be nice but didn't happen. That makes me wonder if new firmware could be created now? What uP did it use to control the electronics? Its my first Hazeltine for my collection. And no, I don't expect I'll actually be sitting at it doing coding :-P. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 2 12:31:45 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 11:31:45 -0600 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070601212154.02f71d08@pop.1and1.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070601212154.02f71d08@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4661A981.7050507@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > It students today learned how to program by toggling switches, maybe > we'd have more people writing tight and efficient code. : ) Would the not be *light* and efficient code instead. In some ways the OPERATE operation was what made the older computers have good code density. With the demise of FORTRAN and the rise of C and PASCAL/ALGOL style languages you need more addressing modes like R+ and B+R+# adressing where you have only two addressing modes mostly Direct short and indirect. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 12:33:19 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:33:19 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <21e211710706020519i587d05d9u18d3d624dd813f70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: "Joshua Benedetto" > >As it goes, having actually run the gold scrapping grunt work (Read: >Play with the Aqua regia) >The reason you don't melt gold like that is the sheer amount of energy >you have to waste to do it! Not to mention contaminating your final >gold product with whatever crap is in the batch. Hi Joshua It seems like you are the person to ask. I did some calculations showing that one would need a large area of PC boards covered with gold to get to an ounce ( w/ typical plating ). About how much gold would you expect to recover in 100 lbs of average PC boards. My guess would put it in the 1/8 of an ounce or less. Surely not enough to pay $500 for a pile of boards. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 From richard.smith at mewgull.com Sat Jun 2 12:53:40 2007 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:53:40 +0100 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4661A981.7050507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070601212154.02f71d08@pop.1and1.com> <4661A981.7050507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070602175337.3D0E04EA3F@smtp.nildram.co.uk> At 18:31 02/06/2007, you wrote: >Grant Stockly wrote: > >>It students today learned how to program by toggling switches, >>maybe we'd have more people writing tight and efficient code. : ) > >Would the not be *light* and efficient code instead. In some ways >the OPERATE operation was what made the older computers have >good code density. >With the demise of FORTRAN and the rise of C and PASCAL/ALGOL >style languages you need more addressing modes like R+ and >B+R+# adressing where you have only two addressing modes mostly >Direct short and indirect. Forgive if this has been said before, but it's surely the availability of oodles of cheap memory that encourages sloppy coding? When I was ripping off Donkey Kong (the original one.......) we had about 32Kb of ROM to store the code, and a couple of k's RAM to handle things like sprites (remember them?). I used to program the Z80 in machine code, on paper, taking care of the number of clock cycles a particular instruction took and looking to see if the same could be achieved using another instruction with a couple less clock cycles. That encourages tight code. >C9 Richard From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 12:58:00 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:58:00 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Ethan Dicks" >> >On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: >> > For example, what would you expect from: >> > N = 1; >> > A[N++] = N++; >> >>On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. > >Out of a cannon, hopefully. Unfortunately, I've seen my share of >messes caused by tricks similar to this. Hi I have no idea what would actually be done but I'd expect A[2]=1. N would be 3. If this was what was intended, why would you fire them? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don?t miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/ From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jun 2 12:54:46 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 13:54:46 -0400 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff In-Reply-To: Message from "Alexandre Souza" of "Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:53:07 -0300." <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <200706021755.l52HslgZ019265@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Alexandre Souza" wrote: > > Dear friends > > I'm working into some 68301 (68000 for embbedded applications) >old-equipment stuff. I'm completely lost into everything, I cannot even >decompile/simulate the code on PC. Maybe some good and candid soul would >lend a hand at least to get me started? I need only to do a very small mod >into the program, but first need to understand how it works. It depends on what you've got, but you might try finding a gcc cross compile toolchain, for say linux (or even cygwin) and then using the "objdump -D" program. You can get it to disassemble from an unformatted binary file... that is sometimes useful if all you have is roms. I think gdb has a 68k emulator, but if not there are many around to choose from. You should be able to quickly whip up something to sim the code once you've figured out the basic structure, i.e. where it boots form and where it expects ram, etc... just a thought. i'm big on simulation. There may be other tools for win32 I don't know about. I'm most comfortable with linux/unix & gcc. You can certainly build 68k code with gcc. I did it for years. -brad From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:16:15 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 11:16:15 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) Message-ID: >From: "Dave Dunfield" > > > > N = 1; > > > A[N++] = N++; > > > > I'd expect that to evaluate to a[1]=2 and n winds up being 3. But I'm >weird. > >This simple code snippet invokes "undefined behaviour" because: > > 'N' is modified twice within a single sequence block. > 'N' is referenced within a sequence block separately from a modification > occuring within the same sequence block. > >One might expect: > > N = 1 > Save address of A[1] > ++N > (address of A[1]) = 2 > ++N > >Which gives you the result you expected, however a compiler is free to >perform the side effects occuring within a sequence block at any time it >wishes, as long as it observes the charactistics of the operator causing >the side effect. (ie: one instance of N++ cannot increment N before >retrieving it's value, although the other instance of N++ could have >incremented it). > Hi Dave I'd expect it to evaluate the left side of the equation first before determining the address. A[2]=1. Any other order would not make sense. Algebraic equations do not read left to right. This causes a sense of ambiguity but shouldn't. Where it wouldn't be clear as to the result would be for the case: A = (5*N++) + (6*N++) But that only goes to show how poor this type of notation is for defining sequence of execution. This is why I still think RPN notation is much better for computer programming. This need not be a stack language like Forth. It is concise. Events happen left to right. No special rules. It isn't familar to what you learned in grade school but doesn't take long to grasp. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 2 13:17:35 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:17:35 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 May 2007 17:56, Rick Bensene wrote: > ?It has a DB-25 RS-232 connector apparently for hooking up to a computer, > ?but I don't know if it's wired as DTE or DCE. Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female connectors on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. I found mine through some surplus outfit years ago at about half the price, and find it invalualble for answering questions like this... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:30:23 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:30:23 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Need help identifying diode specs In-Reply-To: <200705301317.31225.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200705301317.31225.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > One site also listed the part number "5961-01-198-6175" > as an equivalent. This number is an FSN/NSN. Gummint surplus. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jun 2 13:32:00 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:32:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTD: LDOS 5.1.3 for Lobo Max 80, Manual (paper/electronic) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070602125350.01369ad0@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070602125350.01369ad0@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, B. Degnan wrote: > Hi - I finally got a Lobo Max 80 to boot > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/lobo/ > > I'd like a copy of the LDOS 5.1.3 manual so that I can review the options and > parameters associated with the dos commands. Does this help? http://www.tim-mann.org/trs80/doc/ld51man3.pdf He has other copies there, as well. http://www.tim-mann.org/misosys.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 2 13:24:17 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:24:17 -0400 Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465F44E5.1080305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <20070531113151.U32124@shell.lmi.net> <465F44E5.1080305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200706021424.17824.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 May 2007 17:57, Jules Richardson wrote: > I can't imagine it'd be very readable at that sort of size if it included > all the 'extras' which turn a bare-bones system into a useful machine > (joking aside about how useful the XT ever was :-) Still having some quantity of XT-class hardware around, I've been wondering fot some time now what it might be useful for... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:37:47 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:37:47 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070529095403.06a4f5d0@mail> References: <51ea77730705282219k43ee45d0h392d0457260be363@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070529095403.06a4f5d0@mail> Message-ID: > I'm under-informed, but I'd guess that the largest amount is within > IC chips themselves, with the bond-out wires and other surfaces inside > that were plated. Nextmost would be card edges and headers. There is indeed often a large amount of gold on the leadframes and bond out wires. Even on many worthless looking plastic DIPs. About two years ago I had some scrap EMC memory boards for some sort of system, loaded with Oki 256K DRAMs. Plastic, boring looking DRAMs. If I flexed the board enough, the tops of the plastic DIP split and popped off the leadframes. Goooold......... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:45:39 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:45:39 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <369015.81428.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <683601.54477.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <369015.81428.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I'll venture a guess and say the vast majority of > people on this list are interested in the > collectible/nostalgic aspects of old hardware, not for > recycling. It IS important to know when we go toe to toe with the scrappers when goodies come up for auction. > How much old *scrap* is there left these days? Enough to keep the market going. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 2 14:05:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 13:05:26 -0600 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:58:00 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "dwight elvey" writes: > If this was what was intended, why would you fire them? Your question answers itself. Even *you* don't know what was intended. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 2 14:07:24 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:07:24 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com In-Reply-To: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> References: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200706021507.24928.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 01 June 2007 13:26, Al Kossow wrote: > and have made imagedisk images What do you do with those? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 2 14:21:34 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:21:34 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com In-Reply-To: <200706021507.24928.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> <200706021507.24928.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200706021521.34398.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 02 June 2007 15:07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 01 June 2007 13:26, Al Kossow wrote: > > and have made imagedisk images > > What do you do with those? Write them to a disk using imagedisk? Search the list archives for "imagedisk". Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 2 14:52:28 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:52:28 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <46611BEF.82210D41@cs.ubc.ca> References: <46611BEF.82210D41@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4661CA7C.6030208@yahoo.co.uk> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Richard wrote: >> "Ethan Dicks" writes: >>> TCP/IP took a while to trickle down from >>> Workstations to Micros. >> Agreed. I think it was the web browser that pushed the adoption and >> integration of TCP/IP. > > Although chronologically they're pretty close, I'd say it was the opening of > the internet to general public access circa 1989/90 that pushed such adoption > (the final battle in the protocol wars). At that point TCP/IP became mandatory > to connect to the "information highway" (remember that quaint phrase?), any > system that didn't provide TCP/IP wasn't going to receive much attention, and > all those competing/proprietary protocols (DECNET,SNA,OSI,etc.) became > superfluous (specialised capabilities notwithstanding). I think I'd agree there - after all (at least in the UK) lots of home micros from 1980 onwards had the ability to network with each other, so users were reasonably familiar with what a network was (even if they didn't connect their machine *to* one; it was still a system selling point). It was only when public Internet access took off (early on for academia, probably not until the mid-90's for "home" use) that TCP/IP became the accepted norm. On the web front, all the web browser ever did was encourage the use of the wrong tool for the job ;-) From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 2 14:59:58 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:59:58 -0400 Subject: Apple IIe/gs/ older-Macs available in Fargo ND In-Reply-To: <200706021008.l52A8D5U003063@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706021008.l52A8D5U003063@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706021559.58394.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 June 2007 07:05, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I've been contacted by a lady in Fargo ND which an Apple IIe, IIgs > and some older Macs. Also mentions printers, accessories, software > and magazines all pertaining to Apple. She mentioned "a least pay > cost of shipping", so I don't think she is looking to get anything > for them. > > If anyone wants to give them a home, please contact me and I'll > forward her email. On that subject, I have a IIgs system complete, monitor, keyboard, printer, two sizes of floppy drive, etc. that I was given a while back and which I don't have much interest in or use for... Make me an offer? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 2 15:09:42 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:09:42 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> References: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200706021609.42751.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 June 2007 10:26, Dan wrote: > I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I noticed > a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to make this > since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I based this > design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 days. It's > made by Electronic Control Technology. > > Here's a link to the picture > http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg > > > There were several different styles made before--each with their own > advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical > pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates 2 > voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of solder > pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. > > I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the arrangement > of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, grid, etc. If I > get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. It's not much > work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to include 2 pcb designs > at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of S-100 designs. In the > future, I like to setup a bigger panel to include several more S-100 > designs. > > Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and > offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and intend > to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is interested, with > enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. Hmm, good question! I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and such? And the Imsai, here. Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I lack a few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. :-( I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a lot of sense. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 2 15:23:46 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:23:46 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: References: <683601.54477.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <369015.81428.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070602202346.C6B85BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "William Donzelli" wrote: > > How much old *scrap* is there left these days? > > Enough to keep the market going. In particular: I might normally think that because computers today are so much more powerful than 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago, that it would take much less hardware to implement the same functions. Thus I might expect that the raw quantities of computer scrap have been declining over the same time. I have been proven wrong almost every time. Sucky, but true. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 2 15:42:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 13:42:58 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> References: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <466173E2.17899.B8AF6F3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2007 at 10:26, Dan wrote: > > I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board... For whatever my tuppence will get you today, I'd like to submit that I'd prefer to see one regulator (+12, +5) at each corner, rather than both at the same corner--better heat dissipation. I'd also like to see a row of pads at the top for a 50-position ribbon cable connector or two. The orientation of the packages is fine. I'm assuming that the power traces are duplicated on the reverse side of the board also. I hope some of this makes some sense to others. Thanks, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 2 16:18:55 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070602141454.Y6937@shell.lmi.net> > >> > N = 1; > >> > A[N++] = N++; > >>On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I have no idea what would actually be done but I'd expect A[2]=1. > N would be 3. > If this was what was intended, why would you fire them? Because it is treacherous code. If that WAS what was intended, it will work. When you switch compilers, it will stop working, and waste a lot of time of a lot of people finding and isolating what went wrong. Meanwhile, the original author will be insisting that there is a bug in the new compiler. Dave did a thorough job of explaining that for various implementation related reasons, there are multiple VALID results from that code. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 2 16:33:17 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070602142012.J6937@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Dave > I'd expect it to evaluate the left side of the equation first before > determining the address. A[2]=1. Any other order would not make > sense. It would to some compiler authors. (who sometimes have a different reality than you and I do) > But that only goes to show how poor this type of notation is for > defining sequence of execution. This is why I still think RPN notation > is much better for computer programming. This need not be a stack > language like Forth. It is concise. Events happen left to right. No special > rules. It isn't familar to what you learned in grade school but doesn't > take long to grasp. Any completely defined language should produce the same results no matter what is fed to the compilers. But, what about Y = X/0 ? In a simple microcomputer implementation, howzbout N = 32767; /*or 2147483647 (as used in MS-DOS file and partition size)*/ N = N + 1; ? K&R was NOT a very rigid complete definition of the language. There were many parts subject to choice or interpretation by the compiler author. If you want to shoot yourself in the foot, C will provide you unlimited large caliber ammunition. Going back to the original post, . . . in addition to real problems with compilers (such as mishandling of scope), programmers will tend to claim bugs in the compiler whenever they encounter different results than from their "baby duck" compiler. Mine was FORTRAN, followed by APL, 1401 machine, 1401 SPS, BASIC, . . . (and a real programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language) Without meaning to offend you, I'm going to guess that you started with FORTH and then branched out. There does seem to be less potential for ambiguity in a RPN language that has one operation per instruction. (which is what makes machine language so fulfilling) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 2 16:34:34 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070602141454.Y6937@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jun 2, 7 02:18:55 pm" Message-ID: <200706022134.l52LYYBi027764@floodgap.com> > > >> > N = 1; > > >> > A[N++] = N++; > > >>On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. > > On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > I have no idea what would actually be done but I'd expect A[2]=1. > > N would be 3. > > If this was what was intended, why would you fire them? > > Because it is treacherous code. If that WAS what was intended, it will > work. When you switch compilers, it will stop working, and waste a lot > of time of a lot of people finding and isolating what went wrong. > Meanwhile, the original author will be insisting that there is a bug in > the new compiler. > > Dave did a thorough job of explaining that for various implementation > related reasons, there are multiple VALID results from that code. And I came up with a completely different interpretation than Dwight, so ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ---------------- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 16:43:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <20070602175337.3D0E04EA3F@smtp.nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: <623264.21236.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Smith wrote: > about 32Kb of ROM to store the code, and a couple of > k's RAM to > handle things like sprites (remember them?). Most people should. The Commie 64 had hardware sprites. The Apple 2s...I don't really know. Maybe with the addition of some krazee logic they did. Not as stock I don't think. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 2 16:57:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:57:40 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070602142012.J6937@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20070602142012.J6937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46618564.27488.BCF5A78@cclist.sydex.com> Always a good for a little headscratching to keep the gray matter twitching: http://www.gimpel.com/html/bugs.htm Cheers, Chuck From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 2 14:22:46 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 20:22:46 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi The abortive attempt to cluster the two Vaxes and copy data has left me much further back than when I started. The network and terminal server connections are gone because I can't start TCPWARE up. It complains about a license and and something called NETCU (What the hell is that?) and aborts the loading of TCPWARE. Lesson learned,= the boot from a cluster server idea is flawed and can damage an existing setup. Its probably one of those things everybody has heard about but never actually done. Back up did somebody say Back up.? The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite the fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting to do a backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected which it isn't. I'll try to sort that one out to-morrow. Rod From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sat Jun 2 15:33:36 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 16:33:36 -0400 Subject: Looking for Hardware References: <46611859.8060607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601c7a555$4bc8c300$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 50Z, I have a few Kingston SX and SLC Now for the 50Z (PLCC) I have one or two IBM 486SLC upgrades for the model 50 (PGA) Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "The Geeks List" Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 3:12 AM Subject: Looking for Hardware > > Please let me know if you have this hardware you wouldn't mind letting > go for a small sum of money, or if you know where I might be able to > find any of this hardware cheap. Thanks. > > IBM XT-286 Motherboard (I have a dead one that needs replacing) > Kingston SX Now! 386 upgrade (For my beloved PS/2 Mod 50) > Any AT-class memory boards (including EMS ones, obviously XMS preferred) > > Again, thanks. > > Peace... Sridhar > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 16:58:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linux on SGI Message-ID: <537061.49757.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Anyone running Linaches on SGI boxen? I imagine I could get tarred and feathered for stating such in certain mixed company, but even support for the R10000 has materialized. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 2 17:03:02 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 18:03:02 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Need help identifying diode specs In-Reply-To: References: <200705301317.31225.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200706021803.02689.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 02 June 2007 14:30, William Donzelli wrote: > > One site also listed the part number "5961-01-198-6175" > > as an equivalent. > > This number is an FSN/NSN. Gummint surplus. Yeah, I was guessing that. But is there any way to find out more info on the diode itself based on that? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 17:06:36 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SMC CRT controllers on eBay Message-ID: <197010.97490.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih= 003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item= 130118894499&rd=1&rd=1 No, these were not used in the Tandy 2000, but I guess they were used in something (some terminal perhaps?). Mayhap someone on the list knows. O why o why couldn't they have been 9007s or 9021s??? Why. O God... ___________________________________________________________________________________ You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jun 2 17:08:54 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:08:54 -0600 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4661EA76.6060906@e-bbes.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Back up did somebody say Back up.? > The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite the > fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting to do a > backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected which > it isn't. Make sure it isn't a TK50 you put in the TK70, or formatted as TK50. Probably switch the drives between the systems ? From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 2 17:13:56 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <623264.21236.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from Chris M at "Jun 2, 7 02:43:41 pm" Message-ID: <200706022213.l52MDugF020114@floodgap.com> > > about 32Kb of ROM to store the code, and a couple of > > k's RAM to > > handle things like sprites (remember them?). > > Most people should. The Commie 64 had hardware > sprites. The Apple 2s...I don't really know. Maybe > with the addition of some krazee logic they did. Not > as stock I don't think. They didn't. They had shape tables, but this was software-driven. I'm pretty sure there was a card that had a 9918A, and you could get sprites with that, but I don't recall it being very popular (typical software-hardware catch-22 situation). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. -- Beethoven ------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 2 17:15:31 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple IIe/gs/ older-Macs available in Fargo ND In-Reply-To: <200706021559.58394.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Jun 2, 7 03:59:58 pm" Message-ID: <200706022215.l52MFVv4020158@floodgap.com> > On that subject, I have a IIgs system complete, monitor, keyboard, > printer, two sizes of floppy drive, etc. that I was given a while back and > which I don't have much interest in or use for... Any cards in it? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct. -- classiccmp From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 17:15:50 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:15:50 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "William Donzelli" > >>I'm under-informed, but I'd guess that the largest amount is within >>IC chips themselves, with the bond-out wires and other surfaces inside >>that were plated. Nextmost would be card edges and headers. > >There is indeed often a large amount of gold on the leadframes and >bond out wires. Even on many worthless looking plastic DIPs. > >About two years ago I had some scrap EMC memory boards for some sort >of system, loaded with Oki 256K DRAMs. Plastic, boring looking DRAMs. >If I flexed the board enough, the tops of the plastic DIP split and >popped off the leadframes. Goooold......... > Hi Will I'm not saying there isn't gold, just how much gold. As I stated, typical plating is only 15 to 30 mils. For IC's I'd doubt they uses 30 mil. As for the leads, I once held a spool of gold bonding wire that had 1000 feet of wire on it. I'd suspect that the spool was heavier than the wire. The wire is quite small as well. Some IC's used gold wire and some used aluminum. Boards like the older HP boards had gold plated the traces but I wouldn't get real excited about 100 lbs of these boards. They'd be worth removing the gold but I doubt I'd come out with an oz of gold. 100 lbs of just plain boards would be even less. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 2 17:21:29 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 18:21:29 -0400 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706021821.29464.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 02 June 2007 15:22, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > The abortive attempt to cluster the two Vaxes and copy data has left > me much further back than when I started. > The network and terminal server connections are gone because I can't > start TCPWARE up. > It complains about a license and and something called NETCU (What the > hell is that?) and aborts the loading of TCPWARE. I've never used TCPWARE. On the other hand, it appears that NETCU is TCPware's "Network Control Utility": http://www2.process.com/tcpip/tcpware57docs/NETCU/Front.htm It's possible that if you clustered your VAX, you upset TCPware's licensing, and made it think that you had more than one system (or a different one) trying to run TCPware. > Lesson learned,= the boot from a cluster server idea is flawed and can > damage an existing setup. > Its probably one of those things everybody has heard about but never > actually done. I've done it plenty of times. I know other people on the list have done it plenty of times, and people that I work with have done it in the past. If you had actually had DECnet installed, it probably would have worked ok. LAVC's require DECnet to be installed, which the documentation should have stated. Why don't you get a copy of DECnet, install it, activate it using a hobbyist license key (you're an Encompass aka DECUS member, right? Associate memberships are free.), and try again. Perhaps instead of insulting people on this list, you should concentrate on figuring out what went wrong. > Back up did somebody say Back up.? > The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite the > fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting to do a > backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected > which it isn't. > > I'll try to sort that one out to-morrow. Do you know that the tape drive actually works? What are the LED indicators when you stick a tape in? Also, I believe that if you are putting media in that has been written to as a TK50, into a TK70 drive, the media will be marked "write protected". You'll need to degauss the media (with a *good* degausser, not a video/audio tape one) to get it to be writable in a TK70 drive. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 17:24:55 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 18:24:55 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <20070602202346.C6B85BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <683601.54477.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <369015.81428.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> <20070602202346.C6B85BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > I might normally think that because computers today are so much > more powerful than 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago, that it would take much > less hardware to implement the same functions. Thus I might > expect that the raw quantities of computer scrap have been > declining over the same time. Quantity up, quality down. Demand is also WAY up, due to the Chinese. -- Will From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 2 18:58:00 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 18:58:00 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070602142012.J6937@shell.lmi.net> References: Message-ID: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> > On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Dave Sorry - I haven't actually been following this thread ... I just happened across the first message I responded to... and again on this one. > > I'd expect it to evaluate the left side of the equation first before > > determining the address. A[2]=1. Any other order would not make > > sense. Oh no - it is quite common for a compiler to evaluate the address first, which gets stored in a holding register while the rest is evaluated ... but this discussion is meaningless because the issue here is the occurance of side effects. The application of side effects to multiply referenced items within a single sequence block is not specified by the standard. The side effect can happen as soon as the compiler emits code for the operator in question, or it can be deferred to some later point in the code emitted during that sequence block (and often is in the name of optimization). Theres also a wonderful "as if" clause which says that a compiler can violate the standard as long as the results behave "as if" it had not done so - An example of this might be a compiler deferring operation from one sequence block into the next if it has determined that doing so will not affect the results. Since undefined operation is by definition undefined, the "as if" clause always applies - hence the compiler can emit ode invoking undefined operation at the very end of our program if it wanted (or not at all) - (one would hope that a diagnostic would also be emitted :-) ... > It would to some compiler authors. (who sometimes have a different > reality than you and I do) :-) (I'm a compiler writer) > > But that only goes to show how poor this type of notation is for > > defining sequence of execution. This is why I still think RPN notation > > is much better for computer programming. This need not be a stack > > language like Forth. It is concise. Events happen left to right. No special > > rules. It isn't familar to what you learned in grade school but doesn't > > take long to grasp. A long debated viewpoint - but I think a better solution would be to emit diagnostics when such conditions are found - the problem is, although it's simple to detect with simple variables, the use of pointers or function calls with side-effects can make it impossible to detect such situations. In this respect, C is like assembly - You have to know what you are doing and avoid these traps. Perhaps the real solution is one of education. > Any completely defined language should produce the same results no matter > what is fed to the compilers. But, what about Y = X/0 ? In a simple > microcomputer implementation, howzbout > N = 32767; /*or 2147483647 (as used in MS-DOS file and partition size)*/ > N = N + 1; ? > > K&R was NOT a very rigid complete definition of the language. There were > many parts subject to choice or interpretation by the compiler author. > If you want to shoot yourself in the foot, C will provide you unlimited > large caliber ammunition. Absolutely - even standardized C allows for may implementation dependant aspects. This is a necessary evil due to the nature of a very widely accomodating portable language. > Going back to the original post, . . . > in addition to real problems with compilers (such as mishandling of > scope), programmers will tend to claim bugs in the compiler whenever they > encounter different results than from their "baby duck" compiler. > Mine was FORTRAN, followed by APL, 1401 machine, 1401 SPS, BASIC, . . . > (and a real programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language) > > Without meaning to offend you, I'm going to guess that you started with > FORTH and then branched out. There does seem to be less potential for > ambiguity in a RPN language that has one operation per instruction. > (which is what makes machine language so fulfilling) Any language of significant power allows you to hang yourself. The trick is knowing how to handle the rope - my early computing history involved more assembly language than anything else, and thinking from that perspective, I have no problems understanding and avoiding these details. It also helps that I know very precisely what code my compiler will generate for various constructs. - and yeah, at times in "quick and dirties" I've coded stuff invoking undefined behaviour knowing what to expect from my own toolset (ducking). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 18:06:07 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:06:07 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) Message-ID: >From: Fred Cisin > >On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Dave > > I'd expect it to evaluate the left side of the equation first before > > determining the address. A[2]=1. Any other order would not make > > sense. > >It would to some compiler authors. (who sometimes have a different >reality than you and I do) Hi Fred I'd expect the compile to do things in the needed order. Fetch the value of N to do something with( do the first increment ), calculate the address ( in doing so apply the second increment) and store the value into the array. > ---snip--- > >Without meaning to offend you, I'm going to guess that you started with >FORTH and then branched out. There does seem to be less potential for >ambiguity in a RPN language that has one operation per instruction. >(which is what makes machine language so fulfilling) Actually not. My first language exposure, like most, was BASIC. About the same time, I was doing 8080 machine code and 8048 code. I then did a lot of work with PLM/80 and more 8080. I fiddle a little with SmallTalk. It was about this time that I was exposed to a HP 35 calculator. With the combination of machine coding and high level languages so far, I could clearly see that RPN was concise and didn't need special thinking. About the same time period, I got my first taste of Forth. I was already sold on RPN and just had to learn what to do with the stack. I've since played with apl enough to know it doesn't make sense to me. Still it does look interesting from the standpoint of minimum entry. I've also written a few macros in LISP for AutoCad stuff and once for emacs. I current deal mostly with verilog both gate level and behavior. Still, I find that I'm most productive in Forth. Execution typically reads left to right as most would have expected the example to have done. There is no ambiguity about what is done when. I like that! Others don't seem to like that :( In some sense, Forth seems like machine language to most but I find that my code reads like sentenses. Especially as I abstract farther from the Forth low level words. It isn't English but it is clearly sentenses stating just what I want done and when. I've not seen any other language that does that and still has well defined excution order. I find that I factor code better and have less errors writing in other languages after having been exposed to Forth. I still enjoy writing in Forth more but few pay for that. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 2 18:10:05 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:10:05 -0500 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com> References: <200706021224.l52CNevM090657@dewey.classiccmp.org> <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com> Message-ID: <4661F8CD.9020207@oldskool.org> David Greelish wrote: > The only thing is, in DOS, it won't function as a true GUI with true GUI > apps, so the comparison is moot. How about GeoWorks Ensemble? Now that would indeed make an interesting comparison. Oranges to Oranges. (Geoworks Ensemble 1.0 or 2.0 on an XT, and Windows Vista on a modern machine, for example) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jun 2 18:09:34 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:09:34 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <46618564.27488.BCF5A78@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070602142012.J6937@shell.lmi.net> <46618564.27488.BCF5A78@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070602180843.06a2f6f0@mail> At 04:57 PM 6/2/2007, you wrote: >Always a good for a little headscratching to keep the gray matter >twitching: > >http://www.gimpel.com/html/bugs.htm Still around! "PC-lint for C/C++ the longest continuously advertised software tool in human history, was first introduced in 1985." I remember buying it and C-terp in 1985... - John From g-wright at att.net Sat Jun 2 18:17:53 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:17:53 +0000 Subject: HP 1000 21MX Wont turn on, No PS voltage Message-ID: <060220072317.17151.4661FAA0000A72C9000042FF21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, I have a HP 1000 21MX that wont bring up the Power supply. Has AC to it and the fans come on. It has a some what different battery backup connections on the rear than a 2117F. I tried the resister jumper from a 2117F but no go. There is no voltage output from the PS on any leg. Is there something different about these or do I need to trouble shoot the Power Supply Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From darin.lory at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 18:29:36 2007 From: darin.lory at gmail.com (Darin Lory) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:29:36 -0400 Subject: Linux on SGI In-Reply-To: <200706022253.l52MqMag098676@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706022253.l52MqMag098676@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1504CDE0-F23D-4BDB-8E3C-E3933A3BBE3B@gmail.com> On Jun 2, 2007, at 6:53 PM, Chris wrote: >Anyone running Linaches on SGI boxen? I imagine I >could get tarred and feathered for stating such in >certain mixed company, but even support for the R10000 >has materialized. Chris, Nahhh...no tar and feathers...but maybe a wet noodle. Yes, I know of people running older MIPS-compiled Red Hat 5.1 Linux or Debian Linux (http://members.optusnet.com.au/clausen/sgi/LINUX- IP27-HOWTO ) on SGI Indys or O2s being the most popular. There is also a Linux on MIPS Wiki at http://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/ Main_Page Or even SGI's own webpage http://www.linux.sgi.com/mips/ with downloadable Hard Hat (Red Hat Manhattan) 5.1 Linux http:// www.linux.sgi.com/mips/software.html I've heard of people using Origin 200 and Octanes (R10K or R12K MIPS) with Linux but that was after any playing I did with Linux on an Indy. MIPS Technologies (after splitting off of SGI) developed many new MIPS processors like the 24K, 34K, and 74K that are used with their Malta board and Linux from a couple of partners (4K processor also used by these partners). http://www.mips.com/products/softwaretools/ system_software/Linux.php -Darin From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 2 18:39:36 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:39:36 -0400 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2AB37A80-B5E4-4C88-8C1C-ECA02E24E5E3@neurotica.com> On Jun 2, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Richard wrote: >> I was working for Hazeltine terminals group at the time, one look >> at the >> 1400s and I left. There were a few things about it that suggested >> with >> better firmware it could be nice but didn't happen. > > That makes me wonder if new firmware could be created now? What uP > did it use to control the electronics? > > Its my first Hazeltine for my collection. And no, I don't expect I'll > actually be sitting at it doing coding :-P. I seem to recall the 1420 being built around the 8080. Not sure about the 1400, but I strongly suspect it's a very similar design. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 2 18:42:25 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:42:25 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> On Jun 2, 2007, at 2:17 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> It has a DB-25 RS-232 connector apparently for hooking up to a >> computer, >> but I don't know if it's wired as DTE or DCE. > > Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female > connectors > on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. I found > mine through > some surplus outfit years ago at about half the price, and find it > invalualble for answering questions like this... They still sell 'em...I saw one on the pegboard last week. That is one of the most-used pieces of test equipment around here, even though it barely qualifies as "test equipment". Anybody who doesn't have one either 1) never works with async serial, or 2) needs one. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 2 18:44:27 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:44:27 -0400 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On Jun 2, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > The abortive attempt to cluster the two Vaxes and copy data has > left me > much further back than when I started. > The network and terminal server connections are gone because I can't > start TCPWARE up. > It complains about a license and and something called NETCU (What the > hell is that?) and aborts the loading of TCPWARE. > > Lesson learned,= the boot from a cluster server idea is flawed and can > damage an existing setup. > Its probably one of those things everybody has heard about but never > actually done. You can't be serious...? Cluster-booting of VAXen is something that has been happening in thousands of multiple-VAX installations for two decades. I did it myself when I was still a teenager. It is nothing unusual. I am sorry to hear that the attempt hosed your machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 18:50:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 16:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <593488.39378.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> remember, the furniture industry used to, and may still to some extent (restorers even) use gold leaf for decorative purposes. The stuff is so thin - wild guess - somewhere between .0001 and .0003" thick - it floats in the air, and tares very easily. It's still gold, one of it's properties is that it can be spread awfully thin. Essentially they'd apply glue to the surface to be "gilded", allow it to get tacky, then apply the leaf with a brush, somewhat similar to a shaving brush (for applying shaving creme). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Jun 2 18:59:09 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 16:59:09 -0700 Subject: Linux on SGI Message-ID: Works marginally on certain limited hardware (IP30, IP22, IP32, IP27(Sort of)) NetBSD has slightly better hardware support. Support for graphics is marginal at best (Newport and some IMPACT). Go with IRIX, you'll be happier. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 2 19:05:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 17:05:00 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4661A33C.12725.C43EDB1@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2007 at 16:06, dwight elvey wrote: > I'd expect the compile to do things in the needed order. Fetch the > value of N to do something with( do the first increment ), calculate > the address ( in doing so apply the second increment) and store the > value into the array. Having spent a few years with FORTRAN optimization, I can safely say that all a compiler has to do is generate code that produces the right result. Eliminating, variables, loops, expressions, reduction in strength, moving instructions, inlining functions and a zillion other tricks is how you win benchmarks and get contracts. The thing that really plays hob with automatic optimization of C is the d*mned pointers, which can pretty much refer to anything. It's not really safe to assume that a compiler will generate what you expect for anything other than trivial cases--and sometimes not even then. But this isn't all bad--it frees the programmer to write code that is easy to read and leaves the bit-twiddling to the compiler. Or at least that's the theory. Anyone remember the FORTRAN "ABNORMAL" declaration? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 2 19:14:14 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:14:14 -0600 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> It would to some compiler authors. (who sometimes have a different >> reality than you and I do) > > :-) > > (I'm a compiler writer) Good I need a Free Compiler ... OH wait you may want $$$. I like the left to right idea A + B -> C > A long debated viewpoint - but I think a better solution would be to > emit diagnostics when such conditions are found - the problem is, although > it's simple to detect with simple variables, the use of pointers or > function calls with side-effects can make it impossible to detect such > situations. In this respect, C is like assembly - You have to know what > you are doing and avoid these traps. Perhaps the real solution is one > of education. But at least with the older C you could find your FEET to shoot. For humor check here. http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/usail/library/humor/shoot.foot.html > Absolutely - even standardized C allows for may implementation dependant > aspects. This is a necessary evil due to the nature of a very widely > accomodating portable language. Portable only if you assume BYTES are 8 bits (unsigned) now days. > Any language of significant power allows you to hang yourself. The trick > is knowing how to handle the rope - my early computing history involved > more assembly language than anything else, and thinking from that > perspective, I have no problems understanding and avoiding these details. > It also helps that I know very precisely what code my compiler will generate > for various constructs. - and yeah, at times in "quick and dirties" I've > coded stuff invoking undefined behaviour knowing what to expect from my > own toolset (ducking). So is the languages the problem or the hardware for clean coding? And just what is reasonable memory size anyhow ... > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > > . > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 19:15:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 17:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linux on SGI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <577415.6438.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Scott Quinn wrote: > Works marginally on certain limited hardware (IP30, > IP22, IP32, > IP27(Sort of)) NetBSD has slightly better hardware > support. Support for > graphics is marginal at best (Newport and some > IMPACT). > > Go with IRIX, you'll be happier. I realize that. The R10K I2s have the IP28 mobo, no? Just interesting to see that they got Linux going on that platform. SGI was one of the earliest supporters of Linux, but as I think you pointed out a while back, SGI is resistant about letting out the details regarding it's graphics hardware. Time to get out some of that epoxy dissolver I guess LOL. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 2 19:16:21 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 17:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> References: <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070602171434.P6937@shell.lmi.net> > > Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female > > connectors on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > They still sell 'em...I saw one on the pegboard last week. That > is one of the most-used pieces of test equipment around here, even > though it barely qualifies as "test equipment". Anybody who doesn't > have one either 1) never works with async serial, or 2) needs one. ;) Last time that I got one from RS, I opened it before using it, and was amazed to find soldering significantly worse than MY soldering. Once resoldered, it worked OK From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 2 20:45:11 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 20:45:11 -0500 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706030048.l530mBOh017357@hosting.monisys.ca> > >> It would to some compiler authors. (who sometimes have a different > >> reality than you and I do) > > > > :-) > > > > (I'm a compiler writer) > > Good I need a Free Compiler ... OH wait you may want $$$. In some cases... my PC/DOS compiler is free (and I've been known to give embedded tools to people with an interesting project). > I like the left to right idea A + B -> C To each his own - I'm very fond of APL which works that way except that it runs right to left. I always wanted to implement the "comes from" operator in one of my tools but never did... > > A long debated viewpoint - but I think a better solution would be to > > emit diagnostics when such conditions are found - the problem is, although > > it's simple to detect with simple variables, the use of pointers or > > function calls with side-effects can make it impossible to detect such > > situations. In this respect, C is like assembly - You have to know what > > you are doing and avoid these traps. Perhaps the real solution is one > > of education. > > But at least with the older C you could find your FEET to shoot. > For humor check here. > http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/usail/library/humor/shoot.foot.html Readability of a program is a reflection of the programmer, no matter what the language - good programmers can write very readable code in an unstructured language, while bad programmers will continue to write incomprehensible spagetti no matter how "cutting edge" the tools - Like any art form it flows from the human, not the tool. > > Absolutely - even standardized C allows for may implementation dependant > > aspects. This is a necessary evil due to the nature of a very widely > > accomodating portable language. > > Portable only if you assume BYTES are 8 bits (unsigned) now days. I've written code for non-8-bit byte machines, and also lots of code which wouldn't like such an environment - In those cases, I know that all likely targets of the code will be byte oriented. It's amazing how often this comes up as an argument that C is non-portable, It's like saying your famly sedan is not a general purpose automobile because it cannot operate on a road with a 3-foot width - yet people drive these cars all over the country (many countries) never knowing how restricted their vehicles are. People write plenty or portable code relying on at least 8-bit bytes every day. I have ported my C compiler to (at least) 12 different processor famlies, ranging from very limited architectures to rather complex and powerful processors - Yet I use the same front end, and 90+% of code written for one processor will compile (and run) without modification on the others. And a very high percentage of that code will compile under other vendors toolsets with minimal to no changes. My C compiler itself, certainly a non- trivial program compiles under itself, and several other vendors toolsets encompasing widely varying architectures with no changes, and not a single line of conditional compilation. Like readbility, portability is a reflection of the programmer, with the caveat that it will be influenced by the requirements. > > Any language of significant power allows you to hang yourself. The trick > > is knowing how to handle the rope - my early computing history involved > > more assembly language than anything else, and thinking from that > > perspective, I have no problems understanding and avoiding these details. > > It also helps that I know very precisely what code my compiler will generate > > for various constructs. - and yeah, at times in "quick and dirties" I've > > coded stuff invoking undefined behaviour knowing what to expect from my > > own toolset (ducking). > > So is the languages the problem or the hardware for clean coding? Neither - the answer is "the programmer". Many attempts have been made over the years to develop languages which force the programmer to be "good". But programming is an art, and an art cannot be synthisized. These efforts simply force unnecessary constraints on the real artists, and provide another forum for the bad ones to prove that they produce a mediocre work. > And just what is reasonable memory size anyhow ... How much fuel will you need for the trip? (Kinda hard to answer without parameters isn't it). An AVR1200 with 1K of program storage and NO RAM (only the CPU registers as temp store) is excessive for some tasks - an ARM9 with 1024MEG is limited for others (although I personally can't think of many). I do a lot of my DOS code in 64K "tiny" memory model (ImageDisk for example). But we do digress from Vintage Computing... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 2 20:21:16 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 18:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <200706030048.l530mBOh017357@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706030048.l530mBOh017357@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070602181447.G6937@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I like the left to right idea A + B -> C > > To each his own - I'm very fond of APL which works that way except > that it runs right to left. I like the arrow for assignment, instead of '=' (equality?). saves a lot of time with beginning programmers from math backgrounds, for whom N = 1 N = N + 1 would be an inductive proof that all numbers are equal, bringing about the end of the universe as we know it. > Many attempts have been made over the years to develop languages which > force the programmer to be "good". aka "padded rooms" > But programming is an art, and an art > cannot be synthisized. These efforts simply force unnecessary constraints > on the real artists, and provide another forum for the bad ones to prove > that they produce a mediocre work. . . . and a system that won't let you do the wrong thing places excessive limits on what right things you can do (such as disk I/O below the file level) > > And just what is reasonable memory size anyhow ... > But we do digress from Vintage Computing... but not very far. Who could possibly need more than 640K? or even 64K? Well, you could want lots of memory for data (think video), but properly written code shouldn't be so bulky. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 2 20:41:28 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:41:28 -0600 Subject: Linux on SGI In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:58:54 -0700. <537061.49757.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <537061.49757.qm at web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > Anyone running Linaches on SGI boxen? I can see it being useful for the rather pedestrian SGI boxes like Indy or Indigo2, but I can't see it being useful for the more exotic things like an Onyx with the Sirius Video option or an Onyx 2 with all its exotic hardware plugged in. Where would you get device drivers and tuned OpenGL implementations for all of that? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 21:36:46 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:36:46 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 21MX Wont turn on, No PS voltage In-Reply-To: <060220072317.17151.4661FAA0000A72C9000042FF21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <060220072317.17151.4661FAA0000A72C9000042FF21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706021936h5af266f3we7665fcb20b99f9@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/07, g-wright at att.net wrote: > Hi, > > I have a HP 1000 21MX that wont bring up the Power supply. Has AC to it > and the fans come on. It has a some what different battery backup connections > on the rear than a 2117F. I tried the resister jumper from a 2117F but no go. > There is no voltage output from the PS on any leg. Is there something different about > these or do I need to trouble shoot the Power Supply > Is a 21MX a 2105A / 08A / 09A / 12A / 13A? My direct experience is limited to a 2113E and a 2117F (plus a 2100A that doesn't quite work at the moment). -Glen From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 2 17:39:15 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 22:39:15 +0000 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <46609658.10305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070603023639.GRBG9197.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > No - I'm saying that surely a 1000 transistor board with circuits that repeat > is no more or less difficult than a 1000 transistor board where nothing > repeats; the level of effort required is largely the same as it's tracing the > interconnects which takes the bulk of the time, and that's got to be done > fully for both boards to guarantee an accurate schematic. (All of which > probably means that the number of PCB layers is irrelevant too - the critical > thing is the number of solder points) > > I'm not disputing that doing a 1000 transistor board is easier than something > with BGAs on it... :-) I had a situation very recently with a Dell W2600 LCD (26" widescreen). At first, thought was power issue yet I can feel relay click so there was some activity in the mainboard that turns on just the main supply but not the other 3 items turning on (via another control line) for PFC, LCD supply and audio supply.) Backtracked to the mainboard and determined that transistor is a PNP and is not pulling up a signal for that 3 items. What I did was to hopefully see if the rest of other items on mainboard is live by grounding that base of PNP transistor with a resistor. All the power supplies came up but nothing on LCD even lamp didn't light. Oh well, that will be scrapped anyway since owner doesn't want to spend much. The mainboard is one honking big multiple quad & BGA ICs. Cheers, Wizard From pt at new.rr.com Sat Jun 2 21:38:46 2007 From: pt at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 21:38:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: HP3000 rescue in Missouri Message-ID: Interested parties please respond to original poster: The 935 is definitely on topic as is some of the other stuff. Does anyone have an image of a HP2627A color console? I had not heard of this beast. From: Michael Gueterman Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp.mpe Subject: Office Cleanout! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:00:48 -0700 Message-ID: <1180710048.105002.173340 at q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Hello All! It's certainly been a while since I've looked in on the list/ newsgroup. Hope things are going well for everyone. Anyway, it's been so long since I've done any real HP3000 work I've decided to do some office cleaning and get rid of some old equipment. Most of this stuff works (or at least did when I shut off the power to them years ago :) but it's probably not economical to pack and ship. If you want it, you'll need to pick it up or I find someone to come and haul it away soon. The big one! HP3000 935, 2 cabinets with 3-4 eagle drives (I think one is dead if memory serves). This thing must weigh in at 1500 lbs plus! It has a couple of HPIB and one SCSI DAT drive. It does not have the SCSI boot firmware (sorry). I got this used myself several years ago and used it in the developers program so I don't have the MPE license for it. I'll also throw in the HP2627A color (Star Trek) color console! This is a package deal so no cherry picking (that's probably the only way someone may make the effort to get it :) Oh, there's also a HP9000 E55 in the same cabinet (had to stick it somewhere). Let's see, there's also a couple of A2094 monitors, a HP9000 712/60, a 2345A DTS, some comm equipment when we had our T1 line, and who knows what else is buried in the back (probably mostly trash). I also have some of the beige soft-bound manuals sitting on a shelf. I'm going to hang onto the 928 even though it's been powered off for over two years for sentimental reasons. I regret giving up my TRS-80 Level I system back in 1995 so some old stuff I'll keep :) I don't really expect that anyone will drive to mid-Missouri to get any of this, but wanted to offer it up before it finds it's way to an electronics recycler. It's just not worth it to me to package/ship anything so before someone says "Hey, I'll take blah blah blah if you can ship it", the answer is no. So, how is the "open sourcing" or at least the "prying of the source code from HP's hands" going for MPE? Regards, Michael L Gueterman Integrated Information Systems, Inc. -- From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 21:53:03 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:53:03 -0700 Subject: HP3000 rescue in Missouri In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706021953h527924e1t51b00160b0aa87b9@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/07, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Does anyone have an image of a HP2627A color console? > I had not heard of this beast. > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=248 http://www.hpmuseum.net/image.php?file=1148 From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 2 22:34:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 21:34:56 -0600 Subject: HP3000 rescue in Missouri In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Jun 2007 21:38:46 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Paul Thompson writes: > Does anyone have an image of a HP2627A color console? > I had not heard of this beast. Its the color graphics version of the 2621. Rare, IMO. I can't cherry pick the lot. And dammit, I was just out in St. Louis to get all that SGI gear. I would have picked this up at the same time! Jay West has a wonderful collection and might be interested, but if he picks it up I *still* won't get the terminal :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jun 2 22:40:27 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 23:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP3000 rescue in Missouri In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, Paul Thompson wrote: > Does anyone have an image of a HP2627A color console? > I had not heard of this beast. http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=248 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 23:29:32 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:29:32 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com> References: <200706021224.l52CNevM090657@dewey.classiccmp.org> <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com> Message-ID: <466243AC.9040702@gmail.com> David Greelish wrote: >> I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into MS-DOS >> 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? > > The only thing is, in DOS, it won't function as a true GUI with true GUI > apps, so the comparison is moot. How about GeoWorks Ensemble? How about > Windows XP on a system with no additional "stuff" loaded, like > anti-virus, etc. It's an interesting article, but just how optimized was > this system for just office apps. Obviously the Mac Plus didn't go > online, etc., but I get the point, it was a standard system then, > compared to a standard system now. Where's the productivity advantage? I don't know, the machine runs WYSIWYG Lotus 1-2-3 for DOS 3.1 like a champ. On the rare occurrence (I think I may have done it once -- just to show I could do it) that I've needed to open a word processor on the DOS boot on this machine, WordPerfect 6.0 worked like a champ, and my output from it would have been identical (or close to it) to my output with Microsoft Word or Lotus Word Pro. And anyway, it doesn't take long to bring up Windows 3.1, and it really, really wouldn't take long if I added "win" to the end of my autoexec.bat file. Peace... Sridhar From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 2 23:33:41 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:33:41 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <200706021609.42751.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> <200706021609.42751.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <466244A5.2000001@comcast.net> Roy, Thanks for the input. I was thinking about including one with vertical rows and one with horizontal rows. That way you can have some flexibility. One of the recent options for the onboard power supply was to use a low dropout voltage regulator. This allowed boards to be installed in S-100 systems which contained either the original S-100 specs or the IEEE-696 specs. The latter have a lower power supply voltage on the backplane(translates to lower power consumption) which an ordinary 7805 voltage regulator can't accept. These require at least a 10+ volts on the backplane just to get a regulated 5V output. The LO voltage regulators need only about 7V input to get a regulated 5v output. The original backplanes were only 2 layer and couldn't handle the current capacity. The local(distributed) voltage regulators were the only option. You need at least a 4 or 6 layer backplane with a separate copper layer for each voltage and then a layer for ground to have enough copper for all that current. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Hmm, good question! > > I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in > the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been > in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero > location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears > that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and > such? And the Imsai, here. > > Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I lack a > few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. :-( > > I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, > but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess > vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? > That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of > later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a > regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the > regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a > lot of sense. > > From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 2 23:41:58 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:41:58 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <466173E2.17899.B8AF6F3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> <466173E2.17899.B8AF6F3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46624696.4070308@comcast.net> Chuck, Thanks for the good ideas. I don;t recall amny S-100 with the regulators at opposite corners, but then they did make a lot of designs back then. The ones I own have them situated on the same edge. I'll look in incorporating some of this into the design. The power traces are double sided, I only made a pic of the bottom side before. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Jun 2007 at 10:26, Dan wrote: > > >> I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board... >> > > For whatever my tuppence will get you today, I'd like to submit that > I'd prefer to see one regulator (+12, +5) at each corner, rather than > both at the same corner--better heat dissipation. > > I'd also like to see a row of pads at the top for a 50-position > ribbon cable connector or two. > > The orientation of the packages is fine. I'm assuming that the power > traces are duplicated on the reverse side of the board also. > > I hope some of this makes some sense to others. > > Thanks, > Chuck > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 00:05:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 22:05:17 -0700 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <466243AC.9040702@gmail.com> References: <200706021224.l52CNevM090657@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com>, <466243AC.9040702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4661E99D.10692.D56D4C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 0:29, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > And anyway, it doesn't take long to bring up Windows 3.1, and it > really, really wouldn't take long if I added "win" to the end of my > autoexec.bat file. Wonder how long it would take to load Topview... :-) Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 3 00:08:52 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 01:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <05326FBB-2135-4473-86E8-4CEB7B0070AF@typewritten.org> References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 31, 7 04:24:49 pm" <200706011024.l51AOwHq021589@hosting.monisys.ca> <05326FBB-2135-4473-86E8-4CEB7B0070AF@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <200706030513.BAA18175@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> N = 1 >> Humm... undefined behaviour... >> A[500] = 9999 >> N = -1 > I think this is what's traditionally meant by "nose demons." I think nasal demons would be more like // ...Hmm, undefined behaviour... while (1) { kill(N,A[-N]); N++; } /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sun Jun 3 00:29:47 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:29:47 +0200 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <200706021821.29464.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706021821.29464.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1180848587.32294.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 18:21 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Saturday 02 June 2007 15:22, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > > > > The abortive attempt to cluster the two Vaxes and copy data has left > > me much further back than when I started. > > The network and terminal server connections are gone because I can't > > start TCPWARE up. > > It complains about a license and and something called NETCU (What the > > hell is that?) and aborts the loading of TCPWARE. > > I've never used TCPWARE. On the other hand, it appears that NETCU is > TCPware's "Network Control Utility": > http://www2.process.com/tcpip/tcpware57docs/NETCU/Front.htm > > It's possible that if you clustered your VAX, you upset TCPware's > licensing, and made it think that you had more than one system (or a > different one) trying to run TCPware. Hmm... you may now that you are in a VAXcluster with a shared license file have to explicitly specify which of the nodes on the cluster gets the license (if the license is specified as being limited to a single machine.) (Warning: This is from somewhat hazy memory, but I don't think any of this could harm the system.) do this by $ LICENSE MODIFY licensename/INCLUDE=hostname $ LICENSE LOAD licensename The hostname is the one gotten using $ SHOW SYSTEM I think this may very well solve your problem. > > Lesson learned,= the boot from a cluster server idea is flawed and can > > damage an existing setup. > > Its probably one of those things everybody has heard about but never > > actually done. > > I've done it plenty of times. I know other people on the list have done > it plenty of times, and people that I work with have done it in the > past. For the record, I've done it plenty of times - and I've run into this problem (In this case, it was the VAX-VMS license, which is generated with the NO_SHARE option, and thus needs to be tied to a single node when you're using a cluster. > If you had actually had DECnet installed, it probably would have worked > ok. LAVC's require DECnet to be installed, which the documentation > should have stated. As we discussed on IRC, I'm not so sure about that. > Why don't you get a copy of DECnet, install it, activate it using a > hobbyist license key (you're an Encompass aka DECUS member, right? > Associate memberships are free.), and try again. This is a good idea in any case. Happy hacking, -Tore :) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 3 00:33:20 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 01:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200706030538.BAA18351@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Absolutely - even standardized C allows for may implementation >> dependant aspects. This is a necessary evil due to the nature of a >> very widely accomodating portable language. > Portable only if you assume BYTES are 8 bits (unsigned) now days. This is just a modern form of "all the world's a VAX". It's approximately as necessary for "portable" code now as assuming you're on a VAX was for "portable" code then - and for approximately the same value of "portable" (not one I think really deserves the name, but that's a different issue). > So is the languages the problem or the hardware for clean coding? No, not really (though in some cases either can exacerbate problems). The actual problem is people coding who don't really grok programming, at best understanding "programming in COBOL for VM/CMS" or "programming in gcc for Linux on i386" or whatever - and usually not even that. > And just what is reasonable memory size anyhow ... ...for what? :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 00:50:13 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 01:50:13 -0400 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <200706030538.BAA18351@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <200706030538.BAA18351@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46625695.8070207@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> So is the languages the problem or the hardware for clean coding? > > No, not really (though in some cases either can exacerbate problems). > The actual problem is people coding who don't really grok programming, > at best understanding "programming in COBOL for VM/CMS" or "programming > in gcc for Linux on i386" or whatever - and usually not even that. That's a concept which is lost on far too many people nowadays. I got the job I'm currently in after an exchange that went something like: "I see on your r?sum? that you can code in quite a few languages." "I mostly list languages on there so I get picked up by the keyword-searchers. The main thing is that I fundamentally understand how to program a computer." "When can you start?" 8-) Peace... Sridhar From g-wright at att.net Sun Jun 3 01:20:38 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 06:20:38 +0000 Subject: HP 1000 21MX Wont turn on, No PS voltage Message-ID: <060320070620.2290.46625DB5000DFFFC000008F221603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "Glen Slick" : -------------- > On 6/2/07, g-wright at att.net wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have a HP 1000 21MX that wont bring up the Power supply. Has AC to it > > and the fans come on. It has a some what different battery backup connections > > on the rear than a 2117F. I tried the resister jumper from a 2117F but no > go. > > There is no voltage output from the PS on any leg. Is there something > different about > > these or do I need to trouble shoot the Power Supply > > > > Is a 21MX a 2105A / 08A / 09A / 12A / 13A? My direct experience is > limited to a 2113E and a 2117F (plus a 2100A that doesn't quite work > at the moment). > > -Glen The HP tag on the back says its a 2105A - jerry From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 2 17:52:27 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 23:52:27 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason Sent: 02 June 2007 21:10 To: CCTECH Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available On Saturday 02 June 2007 10:26, Dan wrote: > I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I > noticed a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to > make this since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I > based this design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 > days. It's made by Electronic Control Technology. > > Here's a link to the picture > http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg > g> > > There were several different styles made before--each with their own > advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical > pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates > 2 voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of > solder pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. > > I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the > arrangement of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, > grid, etc. If I get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. > It's not much work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to > include 2 pcb designs at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of > S-100 designs. In the future, I like to setup a bigger panel to > include several more S-100 designs. > > Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and > offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and > intend to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is interested, > with enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. Hmm, good question! I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and such? And the Imsai, here. Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I lack a few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. :-( I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a lot of sense. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From grant at stockly.com Sun Jun 3 05:38:06 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 02:38:06 -0800 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <20070515182151.V97169@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> At 05:28 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote: >On Tue, 15 May 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > > Its an MDL-1011D with an FD1771-B01. > > What's the deal with this chip? Is it formatting the the disk as 360k? > >Nothing special. It is a SINGLE DENSITY (FM) ONLY chip. >Although it might give a final capacity of 360K or thereabouts, >It's parameters are most certainly NOT the same as the IBM "360K" format. >It is most likely formatting it as 10 256 byte sectors per track, >or as 18 128 byte sectors. >Tools for looking at MFM disks would be looking for MFM. NOT FM, and would >prob'ly default to expecting 512 bytes per sector. I found that I have to cover the hole or I get BDOS erros about missing sectors. I figured it wouldn't look for the hole... A freshly formatted disk gives me this: A>STAT B: BYTES REMAINING ON B: 69K A> 69k for a 1.4MB disk! I was ripped off! : ( It is running CP/M 1.4. I have the sources if anyone is interested. This is what it says when it boots up: TARBELL 24K CPM V1.4 OF 7-20-79 2SIO MINIFLOPPY VERSION. HOW MANY DISKS? 2 A> Were single sided single density 5.25" disks ~70k? The 3.5" drive does sound different than it usually does. : ) From austin at ozpass.co.uk Sun Jun 3 06:12:10 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:12:10 +0100 Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. Message-ID: Just found this on ebay.co.uk: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Xerox-terminal-for-the-Star-Office-System-1980 s_W0QQitemZ280119650017QQihZ018QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV iewItem Could this be used as a terminal for anything other than a Xerox Star Office System? I?m on the lookout for a quirky terminal for my unix boxen.... -Austin. From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Jun 3 07:13:54 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 07:13:54 -0500 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <200706030538.BAA18351@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200706031116.l53BGtnj023957@hosting.monisys.ca> > > Portable only if you assume BYTES are 8 bits (unsigned) now days. > > This is just a modern form of "all the world's a VAX". It's > approximately as necessary for "portable" code now as assuming you're > on a VAX was for "portable" code then - and for approximately the same > value of "portable" (not one I think really deserves the name, but > that's a different issue). I don't agree ... "all the world's a VAX" is narrowing your "portable" program to variants of a specific architecture. Assuming that a byte has at least 8-bits covers the vast majority of general purpose CPU architectures (past and present). Sure there are examples of non-byte machines, however the truth is that if you encounter a machine which runs code, chances are very high that it uses an 8-bit byte. Saying that programs "isn't portable" because it assumes 8-bit bytes is only slightly less narrow than saying that programs are not portable because they don't operate on machines that don't run code. There's no such thing as perfect portability, and there will always be machines that won't run your program "as is". Varying degrees of modification will be required to do so ranging from tweaking an I/O call, to full rewrite, and in some cases, complete redesign from the ground up. The whole thing about portability is trying to minimize the work required to move a program without introducing excessive operational overhead. Accomodating "any size" byte will in most cases cause a substantial overhead with very little gain in portability. To write code - any code, you need to have assumptions about the system it will run on. For portability we try establish a set of assumptions with broad enough scope to allow us to work, and which applies to the widest varity of architectures. An 8-bit byte is a reasonable assumption regarding the majority of both modern and classic computer systems. I agree that in past days, "all the world's a VAX" was a reasonable assumption, because it was required (due to the lack of portable tools and development environments) in order to achieve a broad enough base of assumptions to write meaningful programs. But I do not agree that "all the world's and 8-bit byte" is anywhere near as equally restrictive an assumption, hence the value of "portable" is nowhere near the same. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Jun 3 07:29:04 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 07:29:04 -0500 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46624696.4070308@comcast.net> References: <466173E2.17899.B8AF6F3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706031132.l53BW5lF025787@hosting.monisys.ca> > Thanks for the good ideas. I don't recall any S-100 with the regulators > at opposite corners, but then they did make a lot of designs back then. > The ones I own have them situated on the same edge. I've got photos of a good number of S-100 boards on my site which may be useful as a reference. Click on the "S-100" title of the S-100 machine section, or look at any specific machine and click on the installed boards. There are a few which have regulators in opposite corners (SSM CB processors for example), and a few which have refulators on opposite ends at the top (eg: Cromemco System support), but most boards have the regulators clustered together. What I find interesting is the number of boards where the regulators are positioned away from the end with the power supplies, with traces running around the outer edge of the board to carry unregulated power. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 06:58:45 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:58:45 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4662ACF5.9090800@comcast.net> Rod, I see what you mean. I'm just starting off small right now since it's mainly a hobby. It's mostly to support the existing vintage computers out there. I really don't know what the demand there is for a new S-100 chassis. I suppose that might be a good kit to build with the right parts. I can look into this. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Rod Smallwood wrote: > Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. > Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! > > Rod Smallwood > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 04:14:03 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:14:03 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I am beginning to wonder if everybody is talking and nobody is listening. ************************************************************************ *************** * The target machine is not running anything except low level firmware !!! * * No DECNet No Tcpip No VMS - Nothing !!!! (It can't-disk drives inoperable) * ************************************************************************ *************** However after wading around in sea of online manuals I think am beginning to find out the things they don't tell you. Given that there has to be some form of communication between the Boot server and the target. Then what's left is this MOP thing. As you can specify that the boot device is the ethernet adaptor (EZA0: in this case) when you try to boot from the target system it must be sending out some kind of request packet with an ID attached. It can't be a node name or an IP address. There's no way tell it what they are!! What it does know, is its MAC address which is hard encoded into the interface. The server has to respond to the request (Remember No Decnet and No Tcpip available) somehow or other. So what is it that runs on the server does not use Decnet or Tcpip and can load images into the target machine? We can rule out @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN which expects Decnet and screw's up TCPWARE. I'm out of ideas at this point. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 03 June 2007 00:44 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Repairing the damage. Importance: High On Jun 2, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > The abortive attempt to cluster the two Vaxes and copy data has left > me much further back than when I started. > The network and terminal server connections are gone because I can't > start TCPWARE up. > It complains about a license and and something called NETCU (What the > hell is that?) and aborts the loading of TCPWARE. > > Lesson learned,= the boot from a cluster server idea is flawed and can > damage an existing setup. > Its probably one of those things everybody has heard about but never > actually done. You can't be serious...? Cluster-booting of VAXen is something that has been happening in thousands of multiple-VAX installations for two decades. I did it myself when I was still a teenager. It is nothing unusual. I am sorry to hear that the attempt hosed your machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 04:18:12 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:18:12 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Brand new DLTape straight out of the box!! -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of e.stiebler Sent: 02 June 2007 23:09 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Repairing the damage. Rod Smallwood wrote: > Back up did somebody say Back up.? > The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite the > fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting to do a > backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected > which it isn't. Make sure it isn't a TK50 you put in the TK70, or formatted as TK50. Probably switch the drives between the systems ? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 06:30:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:30:18 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ200CKB59PNO22@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: Dan > Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:33:41 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >Roy, > >Thanks for the input. I was thinking about including one with vertical >rows and one with horizontal rows. That way you can have some flexibility. > >One of the recent options for the onboard power supply was to use a low >dropout voltage regulator. This allowed boards to be installed in S-100 >systems which contained either the original S-100 specs or the IEEE-696 >specs. The latter have a lower power supply voltage on the >backplane(translates to lower power consumption) which an ordinary 7805 >voltage regulator can't accept. These require at least a 10+ volts on >the backplane just to get a regulated 5V output. The LO voltage >regulators need only about 7V input to get a regulated 5v output. Wrong data. The 7805/lm309/lm323 reguire only 8V. All of the older 3 terminal regulators must have a 2.7V differential to regulate. The yabut, most of the S100 supplies were so poorly filtered that at any load the ripple voltage was excessive and didn't meet the minimum of 8V at the bottom of the ripple trough. A good example of that was the early Altair 8800 before MITS upgraded the transformer. With a 8A load the DC votage sat at 8.3V but the lowest voltage was 7.1V due to the AC ripple. Needless to say that ripple fould it's way to the 5V rail as the regualtor didn't have enough head room to regulate. The fix was a higher voltage transformer or much heaftier filter caps or both. > >The original backplanes were only 2 layer and couldn't handle the >current capacity. The local(distributed) voltage regulators were the >only option. You need at least a 4 or 6 layer backplane with a separate >copper layer for each voltage and then a layer for ground to have enough >copper for all that current. Seals made a decent proto card. Horizontally gridded for power, up to four regulator pads one of which was for +12 (7812), plated though holes both hole per pad and for power gridding (two sides). Allison >=Dan > >[ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] > > > >Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Hmm, good question! >> >> I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in >> the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been >> in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero >> location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears >> that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and >> such? And the Imsai, here. >> >> Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I lack a >> few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. :-( >> >> I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, >> but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess >> vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? >> That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of >> later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a >> regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the >> regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a >> lot of sense. >> >> From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 06:31:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:31:50 -0400 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? Message-ID: <0JJ200CAG5C9NJ52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hazeltine 1400 info? > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:39:36 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Jun 2, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Richard wrote: >>> I was working for Hazeltine terminals group at the time, one look >>> at the >>> 1400s and I left. There were a few things about it that suggested >>> with >>> better firmware it could be nice but didn't happen. >> >> That makes me wonder if new firmware could be created now? What uP >> did it use to control the electronics? >> >> Its my first Hazeltine for my collection. And no, I don't expect I'll >> actually be sitting at it doing coding :-P. > > I seem to recall the 1420 being built around the 8080. Not sure >about the 1400, but I strongly suspect it's a very similar design. > It was 8048/9 not 8080. The 1500 series was 8080. Allison > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 06:34:05 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:34:05 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ200C6F5G0N722@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:52:27 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. >Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! > >Rod Smallwood There are plenty of S100 crates around usually with boards missing or damaged. That is rarely a problem, Working bords to fill it or proto on are. Allison > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason >Sent: 02 June 2007 21:10 >To: CCTECH >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > >On Saturday 02 June 2007 10:26, Dan wrote: >> I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I >> noticed a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to >> make this since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I >> based this design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 >> days. It's made by Electronic Control Technology. >> >> Here's a link to the picture >> http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg >> > g> >> >> There were several different styles made before--each with their own >> advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical >> pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates >> 2 voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of >> solder pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. >> >> I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the >> arrangement of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, >> grid, etc. If I get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. >> It's not much work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to >> include 2 pcb designs at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of >> S-100 designs. In the future, I like to setup a bigger panel to >> include several more S-100 designs. >> >> Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and >> offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and >> intend to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is interested, >> with enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. > >Hmm, good question! > >I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and such? And the Imsai, here. > >Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I lack a few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. :-( > >I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? >That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a lot of sense. > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin > > > From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Jun 3 07:38:42 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:38:42 +0100 Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1180874322.18727.21.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 12:12 +0100, Austin Pass wrote: > Just found this on ebay.co.uk: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Xerox-terminal-for-the-Star-Office-System-1980 > s_W0QQitemZ280119650017QQihZ018QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV > iewItem > http://tinyurl.com/32u9mx for those who don't like multi-line URLs > Could this be used as a terminal for anything other than a Xerox Star Office > System? I?m on the lookout for a quirky terminal for my unix boxen.... It looks like a pretty ordinary ADM3A case at least... Gordon From steerex at mindspring.com Sun Jun 3 07:57:33 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 08:57:33 -0400 Subject: HP3000 rescue in Missouri Message-ID: <01C7A5BD.3C146500@MAGGIE> > >So, how is the "open sourcing" or at least the "prying of the source >code from HP's hands" going >or MPE? >Regards, >Michael L Gueterman >Integrated Information Systems, Inc. >-- Will this machice run the same MPE/V as the smaller systems (IE 3000/42) ? See ya, SteveRob From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jun 3 08:16:46 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:16:46 -0600 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4662BF3E.2090508@e-bbes.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Brand new DLTape straight out of the box!! Did you swap the drives already ? >> Back up did somebody say Back up.? >> The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite the >> fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting to do a > >> backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected >> which it isn't. > > Make sure it isn't a TK50 you put in the TK70, or formatted as TK50. > Probably switch the drives between the systems ? > > > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 08:51:25 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 06:51:25 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 21MX Wont turn on, No PS voltage In-Reply-To: <060320070620.2290.46625DB5000DFFFC000008F221603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <060320070620.2290.46625DB5000DFFFC000008F221603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706030651n2e1b1291icdc5ca4f78e0fce6@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/07, g-wright at att.net wrote: > > The HP tag on the back says its a 2105A > Does the rear panel look like the diagram on page VIII-19 of this manual? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/ 92851-90001_Mar81_9.pdf If so, most likely need to figure out what needs to be connected to the rear plug which is connected to the 02108-60032 control cable assembly shown on pages VIII-20 - 22. It sounds like the power supply could be in the CPU-MEM Alarm mode mentioned in this manual: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/ 92851-90001_Mar81_8.pdf I haven't looked at that manual enough to see how the rear panel control cable assembly is wired in the power supply schematics or if the text describes what needs to be connected there for the supply to operate normally. That's where I would start with these manuals, unless someone else with direct knowledge can jump in with the answer on how to get the 2105A supply turned on in a normal operation mode. -Glen From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 3 08:54:29 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 09:54:29 -0400 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706030954.29834.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 03 June 2007 05:18, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Brand new DLTape straight out of the box!! I don't think that later DLT media is going to have any chance to work properly on a TK50 or TK70 drive. You need to find CompactTape II media for your TK70. This is like trying to use "high density" floppy media in a "low density" drive... it's the wrong oesterd to work properly (if at all). Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of e.stiebler > Sent: 02 June 2007 23:09 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Repairing the damage. > > Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Back up did somebody say Back up.? > > The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite > > the fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting > > to do a > > > > backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected > > which it isn't. > > Make sure it isn't a TK50 you put in the TK70, or formatted as TK50. > Probably switch the drives between the systems ? -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 09:12:37 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 07:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <215963.72478.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Could this be used as a terminal for anything other > than a Xerox Star Office > System? I?m on the lookout for a quirky terminal > for my unix boxen.... More than likely. It looks like a rebadged Lear Siegler ADM3A -Ian From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Jun 3 09:47:56 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:47:56 -0400 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4662D49C.4000208@hawkmountain.net> Grant Stockly wrote: > > > BYTES REMAINING ON B: 69K > > A> > > 69k for a 1.4MB disk! I was ripped off! : ( It is running CP/M > 1.4. I have the sources if anyone is interested. > > This is what it says when it boots up: > > TARBELL 24K CPM V1.4 OF 7-20-79 > 2SIO MINIFLOPPY VERSION. > HOW MANY DISKS? 2 > A> > > Were single sided single density 5.25" disks ~70k? The 3.5" drive > does sound different than it usually does. : ) > Don't know about CPM, but SSSD (FM) disks on Atari's were around 90K. I also believe if you are formatting the 3.5" drive at SD, you best be using 720K 3.5" media... HD media will probably not work well, or not retain data (much the same problem as using non HD formats on HD 5.25" disks). I know I did SSSD on 720K 3.5" media on my Atari using my ATR8000. Worked fine. -- Curt From dasbooterror at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 10:08:16 2007 From: dasbooterror at gmail.com (Joshua Benedetto) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 11:08:16 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) Message-ID: <21e211710706030808o2379e1d3r1b5b1e54a5026895@mail.gmail.com> >Hi Joshua >It seems like you are the person to ask. I did some calculations showing >that one would need a large area of PC boards covered with gold to >get to an ounce ( w/ typical plating ). >About how much gold would you expect to recover in 100 lbs of >average PC boards. My guess would put it in the 1/8 of an ounce >or less. Surely not enough to pay $500 for a pile of boards. >Dwight Well certainly he is trying to rip you off, why else? TBH, you usually dont handle such small amounts of salvage... to offset costs we were dealing with 1000lbs or more of scrap. Im not sure on the actual gold recovered, I didn't handle the precipitation of the gold from solution, i handled the grunt work of smashing up chips and stripping boards for the acid bath. So if your actually looking to make profit in this field you need to deal in scrap by the truckload Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 10:29:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 08:29:01 -0700 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com>, <20070515182151.V97169@shell.lmi.net>, <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46627BCD.11671.F91E062@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 2:38, Grant Stockly wrote: > BYTES REMAINING ON B: 69K Doesn't sound too far off from right. Consider that the Tarbell's probably using 35 cylinders on one side at the 250KHz clock single density. Let's run some numbers for 128 byte sectors, of which we can safely put 16 of them to the track: 35 * 128 * 16 = 71680 bytes. Now, if we take a 1K = 1024 bytes, that's 70K. Reserve a track or two for a boot track... You'd be better off calling your 3.5" drive an 8" unit to get 250K (SS) on a disk. Okay, you're going to say, but what about the deal with the 1.44MB drive being 300 RPM and not 360? Won't that cause a problem. Yes, but--you can fix the problem--several ways. About a year or two ago, I wrote to Herb Johnson on his retrocomputing site about how to modify some models of Teac FD-235HF drives to run at 360 RPM. You see, for many years, a lot of Japanese equipment requires a 360 RPM drive and many manufacturers have a way to accomplish this--even if they don't document it particularly well. I believe that FD-235HG's bring the speed select out to the edge connector, but they're harder to find on this side of the pond. Almost all NEC 3.5" HD drives can be modified for 360 RPM use. The other alternative is to swap the crystal on your Tarbell controller for something that's a bit slower to make the drive look as if it's running at 360 RPM. Say, for sake of argument that the crystal is 8 MHz. By substituting a crystal for (8*(300/360)) = 6.6666...7MHz, things will work as expected, albeit somewhat slower, but still faster than the 5.25" mode. You could also modify the formatting software to lay out a longer track (i.e. increase the number of end-of-track "run out" bytes) or even format the diskettes using something like 22Disk, which doesn't care if the physical track is too long. You could also modify the formatting software and CBIOS to handle 80 track 16-sector disks. Not as good as simulating 8" drives, but better than 60K. You could also modify it to use larger sector sizes. I don't know if the Tarbell controller handles double-sided drives, but that's another possibility. Early 5.25" drives were really pretty wimpy things compared to the 8" heavy iron. :) Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jun 3 10:35:39 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 08:35:39 -0700 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <9489c9797bdf4afbd69b1defbed398e0@valleyimplants.com> Aren't VAXen similar enough to where you could drop the -300's disk in the -200, install VMS (or dup from the -200's system disk), reinstall the disk in the -300, key in the -300's licenses and AUTOGEN? I don't know as much about VMS as I'd like to, but I've had the disk from a 3100/76 up on a 4000/200 to test functionality, and is seemed to work fine. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 10:38:49 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 11:38:49 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <21e211710706030808o2379e1d3r1b5b1e54a5026895@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e211710706030808o2379e1d3r1b5b1e54a5026895@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > So if your actually looking to make profit in this field you need to > deal in scrap by the truckload Very true. Many refineries have a setup fee - generally pretty steep - for every load brought in. If just a small load is brought in, the fee can wipe out profit fast. Bring in several tons and the fee is just a minor cost of business. I am pretty sure the fee is to discourage the little guys. -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 10:57:18 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 08:57:18 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <21e211710706030808o2379e1d3r1b5b1e54a5026895@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: "Joshua Benedetto" > >>Hi Joshua >>It seems like you are the person to ask. I did some calculations showing >>that one would need a large area of PC boards covered with gold to >>get to an ounce ( w/ typical plating ). >>About how much gold would you expect to recover in 100 lbs of >>average PC boards. My guess would put it in the 1/8 of an ounce >>or less. Surely not enough to pay $500 for a pile of boards. >>Dwight > >Well certainly he is trying to rip you off, why else? > >TBH, you usually dont handle such small amounts of salvage... to >offset costs we were dealing with 1000lbs or more of scrap. Im not >sure on the actual gold recovered, I didn't handle the precipitation >of the gold from solution, i handled the grunt work of smashing up >chips and stripping boards for the acid bath. > >So if your actually looking to make profit in this field you need to >deal in scrap by the truckload > >Josh Thanks Josh That is what I was trying to say. Yes there is gold but 100lbs of boards is not enough to get excited about, even with mil parts and gold leads. Each part has a few cents of gold or it couldn't have been manufactures in the first place. I though I'd point out that gold leaf is even thinner than what is typically plated on electronic parts. As I stated most plating is 15 mil or .000015 inch. Gold leaf is about .0000001 inch. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Play games, earn tickets, get cool prizes. Play now?it's FREE! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink1 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jun 3 10:59:26 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 17:59:26 +0200 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <2790DEF6-6C95-4C89-896F-B51CB7E99C0A@gmail.com> References: <200706020039.l520cmsg081055@dewey.classiccmp.org> <2790DEF6-6C95-4C89-896F-B51CB7E99C0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070603175926.439e9406@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:05:22 -0400 Darin Lory wrote: > All Freeware software is at http://freeware.sgi.com/ Last time I checked this it was quite outdated. I recommend to use Nekoware from Nekochan: http://www.nekochan.net/ http://www.nekoware.net/ Maybe also worth a note: The newest IRIX that supports non-PCI machines (Indy, Indigo(2), ...) is 6.5.22. So there is no need to hunt anything newer if you have one of those "old" machines. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 11:03:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:03:44 -0600 Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:38:42 +0100. <1180874322.18727.21.camel@elric> Message-ID: In article <1180874322.18727.21.camel at elric>, Gordon JC Pearce writes: > It looks like a pretty ordinary ADM3A case at least... Not so ordinary considering it was rebranded by Xerox. It also looks to be in very fine cosmetic shape. I'd snag it if it were in the US. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 11:04:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:04:18 -0600 Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:38:42 +0100. <1180874322.18727.21.camel@elric> Message-ID: Plus I haven't seen a white ADM-3A before. Yellow, green, blue, yes. White, no. I know that Lear-Siegler would paint the case in a variety of colors, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 11:16:39 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:16:39 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: References: <21e211710706030808o2379e1d3r1b5b1e54a5026895@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > That is what I was trying to say. Yes there is gold but 100lbs of boards > is not enough to get excited about, even with mil parts and gold leads. It is, however, extremely common for people to stockpile boards until they get a few tons. > Each part has a few cents of gold or it couldn't have been manufactures > in the first place. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The "purple" ceramic DIPs and PGAs have a LOT of gold in them. Additionally, some printed circuit boards have quite a lot of gold - older HP being the standout, of course. At USR, the quad modem boards had every via and pad gold plated. This gold is hidden under all the solder when the product comes out of the line. -- Will From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jun 3 11:31:10 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 17:31:10 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <000001c7a5fc$9b864c80$9304010a@uatempname> >I am beginning to wonder if everybody is talking and nobody is >listening. >The target machine is not running anything except low level firmware That's how it works. >The server has to respond to the request (Remember No Decnet and No >Tcpip available) somehow or other. Your server (the VAX 4000-200) does have to be running DECnet. MOP is not technically part of DECnet but the MOP-handling software is started as part of DECnet. (Actually, there is a another way with more recent versions of OpenVMS, using the LANACP stuff but I assume you haven't done this). Maybe I've missed a message or to, but does your VAX 4000-200 have DECnet (either Phase IV or DECnet-Plus) installed and running? It would be very unusual if it didn't, but it is possible to install without it. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jun 3 11:33:31 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 17:33:31 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <000101c7a5fc$ed54fca0$9304010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Brand new DLTape straight out of the box!! You need CompactTape II for a TK70 or CompactTape for a TK50. IIRC you have a TK70, so a CompactTape II is what you want. Where are you in the UK? I expect one of us could find a tape to donate. Antonio From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 11:46:53 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:46:53 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <0JJ200CKB59PNO22@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJ200CKB59PNO22@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4662F07D.4060009@comcast.net> I was trying to convey that point about the filtering, which is one reason why to have a higher output voltage on the transformer, eg. 10v versus 8v. The 7805 is capable of running at 7V --provided that-- the input is rock solid. When designing, it's not acceptable to let a system run at the bare threshold, it is preferable to have an acceptable margin to account for tolerances. The LDO voltage regulators (LM2940) are capable of running at a lower threshold, offer lower dissipation and a lower dropout voltage. This avoids having to replace the transformer in most cases. I would still change the filter caps since they're 30yrs old. As a result, it allows a greater margin for the power regulation and better stability. They're a drop-in replacement for any of the 7805 and 7812 devices. I make it a point to replace them with these on any old board I have. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Allison wrote: >> Wrong data. The 7805/lm309/lm323 reguire only 8V. All of the older >> 3 terminal regulators must have a 2.7V differential to regulate. >> >> The yabut, most of the S100 supplies were so poorly filtered that >> at any load the ripple voltage was excessive and didn't meet the minimum >> of 8V at the bottom of the ripple trough. A good example of that >> was the early Altair 8800 before MITS upgraded the transformer. >> With a 8A load the DC votage sat at 8.3V but the lowest voltage was >> 7.1V due to the AC ripple. Needless to say that ripple fould it's >> way to the 5V rail as the regualtor didn't have enough head room to >> regulate. The fix was a higher voltage transformer or much heaftier >> filter caps or both. >> >> From f5inl at wanadoo.fr Sun Jun 3 11:47:12 2007 From: f5inl at wanadoo.fr (Frederic BOSSU) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 18:47:12 +0200 Subject: === compaq SLT-286 power supply === Message-ID: <000001c7a5fe$d8c5b3e0$0a01a8c0@p4> Hi, I recently acquired an old Compaq SLT-286, but unfortunately, the power supply was not given to me. So I had to find a way of making it work by myself... I tried to connect a + 12 Vdc to the power connectors that normally are assigned to the battery. I put the ground on the most right pin, and a +12V on the most left one. The two middle pins were left unconnected, and of course, I removed the battery to avoid shortcuts. ( Ooops...when I say left/right, it's when the computer's screen is facing me, keyboard is removed, and the battery connector is located on the top/left corner :-) Like this : +------------------+ | **** | | ABCD | | | | | | | | | | | +------------------+ A : +12V D : GND BC : left unconnected With this, the computers boots normally on the floppy drive, but refuses to boot on the Hard drive. I obtain a 162 error message, inviting me to run SETUP. Then, I tried to run the compaq "setup.exe" diagnostic program, and I managed to see that my hard drive is perfectly recognized ! So, could anyone tell me il if I missed something ? Is my +12 Vdc connexion enough for powering the whole computer ? Actually I find very surprising that the battery's power connector has four pins, and I managed to do it work with only two :-( Thanks for your help, guys ! Sincerely, Fred. From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 12:01:20 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:01:20 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <200706031132.l53BW5lF025787@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <466173E2.17899.B8AF6F3@cclist.sydex.com> <200706031132.l53BW5lF025787@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4662F3E0.3090105@comcast.net> Dave, thanks for tip. I noticed from all the pics that the designs didn't follow one standard. The one basic premise is that the regulators never sit below any IC's, as this causes the heat to flow over them. I see that the regulators are mostly on the left or top left, so that the traces for the power input are kept reasonably short, from pins 1,2,51,52. The one trace that circles the board is the ground trace. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Thanks for the good ideas. I don't recall any S-100 with the regulators >> at opposite corners, but then they did make a lot of designs back then. >> The ones I own have them situated on the same edge. >> > > I've got photos of a good number of S-100 boards on my site which may be > useful as a reference. Click on the "S-100" title of the S-100 machine > section, or look at any specific machine and click on the installed boards. > > There are a few which have regulators in opposite corners (SSM CB processors > for example), and a few which have refulators on opposite ends at the top > (eg: Cromemco System support), but most boards have the regulators clustered > together. What I find interesting is the number of boards where the regulators > are positioned away from the end with the power supplies, with traces running > around the outer edge of the board to carry unregulated power. > > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 12:06:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:06:23 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662F07D.4060009@comcast.net> References: <0JJ200CKB59PNO22@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <4662F07D.4060009@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4662929F.22327.FEB0444@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 12:46, Dan wrote: > > I was trying to convey that point about the filtering, which is one > reason why to have a higher output voltage on the transformer, eg. 10v > versus 8v... Dan, why not just include a couple of pads for a jumper around the 78xx, just in case the user has a regulated supply? AFAIK, that would definitely be a minority of S-100 systems deployed. I suppose one could, for the 5 volts, add an overvoltage crowbar circuit or even just a 6v zener and fuse if leaving the jumper on by mistake was a concern (which it probably shouldn't be). Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 3 12:10:56 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:10:56 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear regulators? Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Jun 3 07:53:10 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:53:10 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <1180875190.18727.24.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 23:52 +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. > Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! Actually, this is a pretty good point. I'm looking for a card cage and card format for a project, where I need to supply +/-15v and a mix of analogue and digital signals to some cards, possibly about the size of (or a bit smaller than eurocards). Each card really only needs about a dozen pins. Does anyone know of anything easily available and cost-effective? Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 08:52:42 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:52:42 +0100 Subject: Cluster Booting - What they dont tell you. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> ************************************** Episode 1 *********************************** This is as far as I got to this morning: I am beginning to wonder if everybody is talking and nobody is listening. ************************************************************************ *************** * The target machine is not running anything except low level firmware !!! * * No DECNet No Tcpip No VMS - Nothing !!!! (It can't-disk drives inoperable) * ************************************************************************ *************** However after wading around in sea of online manuals I think am beginning to find out the things they don't tell you. Given that there has to be some form of communication between the Boot server and the target. Then what's left is this MOP thing. As you can specify that the boot device is the ethernet adaptor (EZA0: in this case) when you try to boot from the target system it must be sending out some kind of request packet with an ID attached. It can't be a node name or an IP address. There's no way tell it what they are!! What it does know, is its MAC address which is hard encoded into the interface. The server has to respond to the request (Remember No Decnet and No Tcpip available) somehow or other. So what is it that runs on the server does not use Decnet or Tcpip and can load images into the target machine? We can rule out @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN which expects Decnet and screw's up TCPWARE. I'm out of ideas at this point. Rod Smallwood ************************************** Episode 2 *********************************** More wading around in on line manuals ... Then some light .... The key is a program called LANCP invoked as $MCR LANCP It allows you to associate a name say VAX300 with a MAC address and add it to a database. To do this it uses the DEFINE command. DEFINE NODE VAX300/ADDRESS=08-00-2B-18-BB-D0/FILE=APB_061.EXE This refered to as a NODE. Now the Boot server knows about the target machine and its MAC Address. So far so good.... Now for the other half of the puzzle. How does the boot server listen for requests. Well there's an executable program call LANACP that is invoked by running LAN$STARTUP.COM Once running it services boot requests from across the network. It uses the data from the data base maintained by LANCP. It gives progress messages when a Node tries to boot. ... and of course it works up to the point where it does not recognise the file name to down load (I have not found out what thats called yet) So.. 1. Hands up all of you who knew this and did not mention it. - Shame on you!!! 2. Hands up all of you that did not know this - Well, now you do!! 3. For MOP read LANACP. 4. Whats the name of the file to be downloaded from boot server to target to get VMS running on the target.? Lessons 1. Never run a .COM file before looking to see what it does. 2. Try and work out what needs to happen first. Rod Smallwood From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 09:20:47 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:20:47 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Thanks for the positive feed back. Needless to say like all standards S100 had different versions. For example the Northstar Horizion had some active components on the mother board. However if we look at a basic passive (other than power) back plane. What are the potential problems? Firstly the connectors are they available? They had two rows of fifty connections. Spacing pin to pin .125in. Mother board was thicker than the usual 1/16 in for rigidity possibily 3/32 in. Card guides pretty standard but how high? Then the metalwork supporting the card guides. Possible Parts List 1. Double sided S100 motherboard (Say twelve slots) 2. Aluminium base plate drilled for backplane and card guide supports. 3. Twelve double sided 2x50 edge connectors. 4. Card guide support frame. 5. Twenty four card guides. 6. Nuts, bolts and screws etc. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Sent: 03 June 2007 12:59 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Rod, I see what you mean. I'm just starting off small right now since it's mainly a hobby. It's mostly to support the existing vintage computers out there. I really don't know what the demand there is for a new S-100 chassis. I suppose that might be a good kit to build with the right parts. I can look into this. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Rod Smallwood wrote: > Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. > Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! > > Rod Smallwood > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 09:24:30 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:24:30 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F90@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi 1. Where did you see all these crates. (I'm in the UK) 2. Nice shiny new boards in old back planes ? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: 03 June 2007 12:34 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > >Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:52:27 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > >Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. >Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! > >Rod Smallwood There are plenty of S100 crates around usually with boards missing or damaged. That is rarely a problem, Working bords to fill it or proto on are. Allison > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason >Sent: 02 June 2007 21:10 >To: CCTECH >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > >On Saturday 02 June 2007 10:26, Dan wrote: >> I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I >> noticed a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to >> make this since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I >> based this design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 >> days. It's made by Electronic Control Technology. >> >> Here's a link to the picture >> http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg >> > p >> g> >> >> There were several different styles made before--each with their own >> advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical >> pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates >> 2 voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of >> solder pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. >> >> I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the >> arrangement of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, >> grid, etc. If I get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. >> It's not much work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to >> include 2 pcb designs at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of >> S-100 designs. In the future, I like to setup a bigger panel to >> include several more S-100 designs. >> >> Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and >> offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and >> intend to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is >> interested, with enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. > >Hmm, good question! > >I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and such? And the Imsai, here. > >Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I >lack a few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. >:-( > >I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? >That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a lot of sense. > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. >--James M Dakin > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 3 12:39:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 11:39:32 -0600 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4662FCD4.8070900@jetnet.ab.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > > If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st > century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear > regulators? > > Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. True, but with the advent modern chips like CMOS I see that power consumption less of a problem. Is the proto-board for 8 bit S-100 or 16 bit S-100 as I remember some where the buss was upgraded for 16 bit processors? ( Can you say INTEL ? ) If it where not for that fact, having De-codeing and buffer chips laid out as that would save some space rather than in the pro-type area. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 3 12:51:04 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:51:04 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <9489c9797bdf4afbd69b1defbed398e0@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On 3/6/07 16:35, "Scott Quinn" wrote: > > Aren't VAXen similar enough to where you could drop the -300's disk in > the -200, install VMS (or dup from the -200's system disk), reinstall > the disk in the -300, key in the -300's licenses and AUTOGEN? I don't > know as much about VMS as I'd like to, but I've had the disk from a > 3100/76 up on a 4000/200 to test functionality, and is seemed to work > fine. Yep. In fact, you could put a new disk in the -200, do a minimum boot then $backup/image onto it, put it back in the -300 and boot..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 3 12:39:51 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:39:51 -0400 Subject: Linux on SGI In-Reply-To: <577415.6438.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <577415.6438.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200706031339.52096.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 June 2007 20:15, Chris M wrote: > Time to get out some of that epoxy dissolver I guess LOL. Is there something out there that'll do that? And how do you keep it from hitting epoxy-cased components while it's working? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 12:53:36 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <348457.56143.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > Plus I haven't seen a white ADM-3A before. Yellow, > green, blue, yes. > White, no. I know that Lear-Siegler would paint the > case in a variety > of colors, though. I have one. It's white on the top, light gray on the bottom. I also have the classic light blue with darker blue bottom ones. Never seen them in green or yellow though. But, as with most peripherals that got rebadged, they would have been repainted to match whatever hardware they were sold with. -Ian From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 3 12:54:09 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:54:09 -0400 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200706031354.09913.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 June 2007 06:38, Grant Stockly wrote: > Were single sided single density 5.25" disks ~70k? The 3.5" drive does > sound different than it usually does. : ) Well, my recollection is that the single-sided disks on my Osborne held 183K. A single-sided "pc" disk held roughly 180K as well, so half of that would be 90K. Those were 9 sectors/track, and I seem to remember an 8 sectors/track format as well, giving 80K? Not too far off, I guess. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 3 13:00:47 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:00:47 -0400 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <4662D49C.4000208@hawkmountain.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <4662D49C.4000208@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <200706031400.47391.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 June 2007 10:47, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > I also believe if you are formatting the 3.5" drive at SD, you best be > using 720K 3.5" media... HD media will probably not work well, or not > retain data (much the same problem as using non HD formats on HD 5.25" > disks). Doesn't this depend on the write current supplied by the drive electronics, rather than the format used? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 3 13:19:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:19:19 -0500 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <20070602181447.G6937@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706030048.l530mBOh017357@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070602181447.G6937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46630627.1080508@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >> But programming is an art, and an art >> cannot be synthisized. These efforts simply force unnecessary constraints >> on the real artists, and provide another forum for the bad ones to prove >> that they produce a mediocre work. > > . . . and a system that won't let you do the wrong thing places excessive > limits on what right things you can do (such as disk I/O below the file > level) I always think that the key is a language which allows programmers to do "everything" (for suitable values of everything, of course), but only allows them to do any one thing one way only. One of the things which irritates about C is that there's always a million different ways of expressing the most simple of things; I like the language's power, but understanding someone else's obfuscation can be a little annoying at times. Incidentally I stumbled across brainf*ck as a language the other day. 8 instructions. Beautiful :-) (http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 3 13:37:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:37:02 -0400 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: <0JJ200CAG5C9NJ52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJ200CAG5C9NJ52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <90381410-71D9-4393-990B-EDBA490FC33C@neurotica.com> On Jun 3, 2007, at 7:31 AM, Allison wrote: >>>> I was working for Hazeltine terminals group at the time, one look >>>> at the >>>> 1400s and I left. There were a few things about it that suggested >>>> with >>>> better firmware it could be nice but didn't happen. >>> >>> That makes me wonder if new firmware could be created now? What uP >>> did it use to control the electronics? >>> >>> Its my first Hazeltine for my collection. And no, I don't expect >>> I'll >>> actually be sitting at it doing coding :-P. >> >> I seem to recall the 1420 being built around the 8080. Not sure >> about the 1400, but I strongly suspect it's a very similar design. >> > > It was 8048/9 not 8080. The 1500 series was 8080. Indeed, I was quite certain my *1420* was 8080-based, so I went and dug it up...when I found it, it was a 1510. It must've changed from a 1420 to a 1510 when I wasn't looking. ;) But it (the *1510*) was indeed built around an 8080. :) And sadly, it is quite dead...powers up and says "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP! *" interminably. Anybody got schematics? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 3 13:37:49 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:37:49 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <0JJ200C6F5G0N722@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJ200C6F5G0N722@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <262F95B9-4233-4541-94EC-95F5040804D7@neurotica.com> On Jun 3, 2007, at 7:34 AM, Allison wrote: >> Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card >> cage with back plane and PSU. >> Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! > > There are plenty of S100 crates around usually with boards missing > or damaged. > That is rarely a problem, Working bords to fill it or proto on are. I'd love to find one...Do you know of any specifically, offhand? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 13:43:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 11:43:46 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 10:10, Al Kossow wrote: > If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st > century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear > regulators? > > Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. Al, I confess to not having a good handle on this matter of what's "vintage" and what's not. I was looking at 78xx linear regulators as being "authentic". I mean, why bother with S-100 at all? There are plenty of better busses now, right? I plead ignorance at knowing where to draw the line on this stuff. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jun 3 13:52:21 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 19:52:21 +0100 Subject: Cluster Booting - What they dont tell you. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <000001c7a610$52adadf0$9304010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > We can rule out @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN which expects Decnet > and screw's up TCPWARE. > > I'm out of ideas at this point. > Lessons > > 1. Never run a .COM file before looking to see what it does. cluster_config*_LAN*.com? You aren't meant to run that are you? At least, I've never done it that way. I've just attached a sample of invoking @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM on my VAX. If you never at least entered the MAC address of your satellite VAX then you definitely ran the wrong procedure! I thought you had V6.2 - the LANACP stuff popped in V7 sometime, for those who didn't want to install DECnet-Plus. I would expect the procedure (if you run the right one) to do the right thing (but I don't have a VAX with that config around to check right now). One other thing: > DEFINE NODE VAX300/ADDRESS=08-00-2B-18-BB-D0/FILE=APB_061.EXE Before you go to far down this path, this is used to boot an Alpha from an InfoServer (or at least that's what I think it is, my infoserver isn't in use right now). So I don't think this is what you want. CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM should as a few questions, set a bunch of stuff up and then wait for you to boot your VAX 4000-300. There's no way that you are expected to delve this deep into this stuff if you run the right procedure. Antonio KRAKAR::SYSTEM> @cluster_config Cluster Configuration Procedure Executing on a VAX System This system is running DECnet-Plus. DECnet will be used for MOP downline loading. To ensure that this procedure is executing with the required privileges, invoke it from the system manager's account. Enter a "?" for help at any prompt. If you are familiar with the execution of this procedure, you may want to mute extra notes and explanations by invoking it with "@CLUSTER_CONFIG BRIEF". KRAKAR is a VAX system and currently a member of a cluster so the following functions can be performed: MAIN MENU 1. ADD a VAX node to the cluster. 2. REMOVE a node from the cluster. 3. CHANGE a cluster member's characteristics. 4. CREATE a duplicate system disk for KRAKAR. 5. MAKE a directory structure for a new root on a system disk. 6. DELETE a root from a system disk. 7. EXIT from this procedure. Enter choice [1]: This ADD function will add a new VAX node to the cluster. WARNING: If the node being added is a voting member, EXPECTED_VOTES for every cluster member must be adjusted. For complete instructions check the section on configuring a cluster in the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. CAUTION: If this cluster is running with multiple system disks and common system files will be used, please, do not proceed unless appropriate logical names are defined for cluster common files in SYLOGICALS.COM. For instructions, refer to the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. Do you want to continue [N]? y For additional networking information, please refer to the DECnet-Plus Network Management manual. What is the node's DECnet fullname? LOCAL:.TEST What is the SCS node name for this node [TEST]? Do you want to define a DECnet synonym [Y]? What is the synonym name for this node [TEST]? What is the MOP service client name for this node [TEST]? What is the node's DECnet Phase IV address? 1.98 Will TEST be a satellite [Y]? WARNING: When the new node is a satellite, the network databases on KRAKAR are updated by this procedure. You must see to it that the network databases on all other cluster members are updated. On every boot node that may provide MOP service to the new satellite, also make certain SYS$MANAGER:NET$LOGICALS.COM contains the command: $ DEFINE NET$STARTUP_MOP TRUE For help, refer to the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. Does TEST need to be registered in the namespace [N]? Verifying circuits in network database... What is the Cluster Alias fullname? Note: KRAKAR has 1 LAN circuit(s) in the ON state, with service enabled. This procedure will establish circuit CSMACD-0 for KRAKAR's booting of TEST. What is TEST's LAN adapter hardware address? 08-00-2b-00-00-01 This procedure will now ask you for the device name of TEST's system root. The default device name (DISK$OPENVMS071:) is the logical volume name of SYS$SYSDEVICE:. What is the device name for TEST's system root [default DISK$OPENVMS071:]? What is the name of TEST's system root [SYS10]? Allow conversational bootstraps on TEST [N]? The following workstation windowing options are available: 1. No workstation software 2. DECwindows Workstation Software 3. VWS Workstation Software (not installed) Enter choice [1]: Creating directory tree SYS10 ... %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %SET-I-ENTERED, $1$DKA0:<000000>VMS$COMMON.DIR;1 entered as $1$DKA0:SYSCO MMON.DIR; %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created System root SYS10 created Will TEST be a disk server [N]? Updating network database... On all other boot nodes which may provide MOP DLL service to TEST, execute the following command: $ @SYS$MANAGER:NET$CONFIGURE "ALS_CONFIGURE" "ADD_CLIENT" - _$ "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]clu20200205.tmp3" "TEST" "08-00-2B-00-00-01" "1. 98" - _$ "DISK$OPENVMS071:" Configuration last run by SYSTEM on 28-JAN-1999 10:11:34.08 Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.760+01:00Iinf Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.860+01:00Iinf Characteristics Addresses = { 08-00-2B-00-00-01 , AA-00-04-00-62-04 (1.98) } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.870+01:00Iinf Characteristics Tertiary Loader = { sys$system:tertiary_vmb.exe } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.880+01:00Iinf Characteristics System Image = { "@net$niscs_laa(DISK$OPENVMS071:)" } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.890+01:00Iinf Characteristics Verification = '0000000000000000'H Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.890+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Host Name = KRAKAR Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.900+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Host Address = 1.150 Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.910+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Client Name = TEST Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.910+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Client Address = 1.98 %NET$CONFIGURE-I-MODCHECKSUM, checksumming NCL management scripts modified by NE T$CONFIGURE DELETE SYS$SPECIFIC:[SYSEXE]NET$CHECKSUM_NCL_LOCAL_SAVED.DAT;12 ? [N]: y DELETE SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]NET$CHECKSUM_NCL_COMMON_SAVED.DAT;12 ? [N]: a %PURGE-I-NOFILPURG, no files purged sys$manager:net$dns_clerk_startup.ncl changed to use the new default namespace. Your default namespace nickname is LOCAL. Your default namespace NSCTS is 08-00-2B-0D-C0-9D-5F-FA-A9-88-43-46-95-00. Clearing old local namespace entries prior to loading new entries Loading new local namespace node name entries Saving the new local namespace contents Maximum number of node names that can be loaded: 190 Number of node names that are currently loaded: 4 %NET$CONFIGURE-I-CONFIGCOMPLETED, DECnet-Plus for OpenVMS configuration complete d Size of pagefile for TEST [RETURN for AUTOGEN sizing]? A temporary pagefile will be created until resizing by AUTOGEN. The default size below is arbitrary and may or may not be appropriate. Size of temporary pagefile [10000]? Size of swap file for TEST [RETURN for AUTOGEN sizing]? A temporary swap file will be created until resizing by AUTOGEN. The default size below is arbitrary and may or may not be appropriate. Size of temporary swap file [8000]? Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? y Does TEST have any RFxx disks [N]? y Enter a value for TEST's ALLOCLASS parameter [1]: This procedure will now wait until TEST is a member of the cluster. Once TEST joins the cluster, this procedure will ask you which local disk it can use for paging and swapping. Please boot TEST now. Make sure the default boot device is set to be the LAN device appropriate for the satellite. See the hardware user manual or the console help command for instructions to do this. Waiting for TEST to boot... Waiting for TEST to boot... From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jun 3 14:17:21 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:17:21 -0600 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <466313C1.8080900@e-bbes.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jun 2007 at 10:10, Al Kossow wrote: > > Al, I confess to not having a good handle on this matter of what's > "vintage" and what's not. I was looking at 78xx linear regulators as > being "authentic". I mean, why bother with S-100 at all? There are > plenty of better busses now, right? I was hoping somebody would ask that. There are really nicer busses, PCB formats, connectors available now. (VME ? Not talking about the bus, but the Euro connector & format is nice and cheap) Cheers From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 14:55:08 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:55:08 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46631C9C.30602@comcast.net> That's a start. But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts. Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason. I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk. It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design I'm working on. Only if there's enough people interested of course. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Thanks for the positive feed back. Needless to say like all standards > S100 had different versions. > For example the Northstar Horizion had some active components on the > mother board. > However if we look at a basic passive (other than power) back plane. > What are the potential problems? Firstly the connectors are they > available? They had two rows of fifty connections. > Spacing pin to pin .125in. Mother board was thicker than the usual 1/16 > in for rigidity possibily 3/32 in. > Card guides pretty standard but how high? Then the metalwork supporting > the card guides. > > Possible Parts List > > 1. Double sided S100 motherboard (Say twelve slots) > 2. Aluminium base plate drilled for backplane and card guide > supports. > 3. Twelve double sided 2x50 edge connectors. > 4. Card guide support frame. > 5. Twenty four card guides. > 6. Nuts, bolts and screws etc. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan > Sent: 03 June 2007 12:59 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > > Rod, > > I see what you mean. I'm just starting off small right now since it's > mainly a hobby. It's mostly to support the existing vintage computers > out there. I really don't know what the demand there is for a new S-100 > chassis. I suppose that might be a good kit to build with the right > parts. I can look into this. > > =Dan > > [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] > > > > Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage >> > with back plane and PSU. > >> Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> > > > > > > From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 14:59:40 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:59:40 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662929F.22327.FEB0444@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JJ200CKB59PNO22@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <4662F07D.4060009@comcast.net> <4662929F.22327.FEB0444@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46631DAC.4020308@comcast.net> Chuck, That jumper is simple enough to put in there. I could even add a note in the silkscreen on how to jumper this. Any other power circuitry would have to be left up to the user. I like to stick with the basics for now. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jun 2007 at 12:46, Dan wrote: > > >> I was trying to convey that point about the filtering, which is one >> reason why to have a higher output voltage on the transformer, eg. 10v >> versus 8v... >> > > Dan, why not just include a couple of pads for a jumper around the > 78xx, just in case the user has a regulated supply? AFAIK, that would > definitely be a minority of S-100 systems deployed. I suppose one > could, for the 5 volts, add an overvoltage crowbar circuit or even > just a 6v zener and fuse if leaving the jumper on by mistake was a > concern (which it probably shouldn't be). > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 15:03:52 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linux on SGI In-Reply-To: <200706031339.52096.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474657.97686.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Saturday 02 June 2007 20:15, Chris M wrote: > > Time to get out some of that epoxy dissolver I > guess LOL. > > Is there something out there that'll do that? And > how do you keep it from > hitting epoxy-cased components while it's working? There was a thread oh about a year ago or so. I think the title was "grinding down ic's" or something similar. ALOT of dudes came out of the woodwork (don't take that the wrong way, it just seems there's a number of people who mainly monitor the posts, and wait until some esoteric topic comes up, and then they materialize. I was impressed). Some mentioned the epoxy material is simply dissolved rather then just the top ground off. You'll have to refer to that thread for the best treatment of the subject. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 15:05:37 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <20070603125058.Y45414@shell.lmi.net> > > > Its an MDL-1011D with an FD1771-B01. > > > What's the deal with this chip? Is it formatting the the disk as 360k? > >Nothing special. It is a SINGLE DENSITY (FM) ONLY chip. > >Although it might give a final capacity of 360K or thereabouts, > >It's parameters are most certainly NOT the same as the IBM "360K" format. > >It is most likely formatting it as 10 256 byte sectors per track, APPARENTLY not, that would give about 100K > >or as 18 128 byte sectors. > >Tools for looking at MFM disks would be looking for MFM. NOT FM, and would > >prob'ly default to expecting 512 bytes per sector. On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > I found that I have to cover the hole or I get BDOS erros about missing > sectors. I figured it wouldn't look for the hole... The "media type" hole on a 1.4M? There exist some drives that ignore the "media type" hole, pqrticularly many/most? of the ones that IBM used in the PS/2s. They rely on the disk controller board to tell them when to go to reduced current. or the index hole on a 5.25"? > A freshly formatted disk gives me this: > A>STAT B: > BYTES REMAINING ON B: 69K > 69k for a 1.4MB disk! I was ripped off! : ( It is running CP/M 1.4. I > have the sources if anyone is interested. Did 1.4 support the DSK option of STAT? It gives some more info about the format. If so, try B: A:STAT DSK: > This is what it says when it boots up: > TARBELL 24K CPM V1.4 OF 7-20-79 > 2SIO MINIFLOPPY VERSION. > HOW MANY DISKS? 2 > Were single sided single density 5.25" disks ~70k? YES. SSSD 5.25" could range from that up to about 100K. Is it using 35 tracks (SA400) or 40 tracks? Most PC floppy controllers will not handle FM/Single density. Use Dave's test program on your PC to see if you have a chance. In addition, it may be writine 128 byte sectors, which leaves out a lot more of the NEC type FDC chips. If you have access to a TRS80 Mod 3 or 4, TRAKCESS would be a good tool for analyzing these disks. It is mostly in BASIC, so it canbe easily modified for additional functionality. > The 3.5" drive does > sound different than it usually does. : ) It's not used to getting a pause between seeks, and not getting beaten half to death by a thrashing OS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 15:13:25 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:13:25 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <466320E5.8030702@comcast.net> On such a small board, I'm not sure it's practical yet. The pcb real estate + parts cost vs. the wattage might not be cost effective. The LM2940 series regulator is a basic yet improved with minimum overhead. When you need to convert down to something such as 3.3v, 2.5v or 1.8v, an onboard switcher will help. If there's any switching power supply being used, it would be sitting at the bottom of the backplane rather than on each board. It's more cost effective this way. Then you can just remove the onboard regulator and bypass it with a jumper wire. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Al Kossow wrote: > > If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st > century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear > regulators? > > Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. > > > > > From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 15:15:27 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:15:27 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662FCD4.8070900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662FCD4.8070900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4663215F.6030904@comcast.net> I remember the16bit option too. That's not hard to add since I was thinking about including the decode logic to save space. Thanks for the tip. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] woodelf wrote: > Is the proto-board > for 8 bit S-100 or 16 bit S-100 as I remember some where the buss > was upgraded for 16 bit processors? ( Can you say INTEL ? ) > If it where not for that fact, having De-codeing and buffer chips > laid out as that would save some space rather than in the pro-type > area. > > > > From grant at stockly.com Sun Jun 3 15:25:39 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:25:39 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46631C9C.30602@comcast.net> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> At 11:55 AM 6/3/2007, you wrote: >That's a start. >But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts. >Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason. >I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk. >It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design I'm >working on. >Only if there's enough people interested of course. A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 slots at a production quantity of 50. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jun 3 15:35:58 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 slots at a > production quantity of 50. On top of that, S100 motherboards are still fairly easy to find. If anyone's interested, I'll have some ready for sale in a couple weeks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 15:37:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <942712.43689.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- dwight elvey wrote: As I stated > most plating is 15 mil > or .000015 inch. Gold leaf is about .0000001 inch. > Dwight Gold leaf is one-tenth of one-millionth of an inch thick??? I guess my questimate was way too high, but that seems a bit low. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JeniferVilfranc.shtml claims .000003 - .000005 inches thick or thereabouts. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 15:41:58 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <200706031354.09913.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <200706031354.09913.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070603131629.D45414@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Well, my recollection is that the single-sided disks on my Osborne held 183K. The MFM/Double Density. The single density was 40 track * 10 sectors per track * 256 bytes per sector. (100K) Allowing for the possibility of using 35, instead of 40 tracks (SA400), and 128 byte sectors (due to the "overhead"/gaps, could usually only fit 18 per track) would give 80640 bytes (78.75K), although that could also be obtained by 9 * 256. > A single-sided "pc" disk held roughly 180K as well, so half of that would be > 90K. Those were 9 sectors/track, and I seem to remember an 8 sectors/track > format as well, giving 80K? Not too far off, I guess. The single sided "360K" formats were, indeed 160K (DOS 1.xx) and 180K (DOS 2.xx) (40 * 512 * 8, 40 * 512 * 9) But, "half" is inaccurate. The name "Single Density" for FM did not exist until AFTER the name "Double Density" came about. Just as "The Great War" was not known as "World War I" until "World War II" began to be discussed. "Double Density" was a MARKETING name, produced by those who feared the dissemination of the actual information about it more than cannon. (Good sig quote!) FM provided 1 bit of info for every two pulses; hence, some recording engineers would prefer to see it called "Half Density". MFM permitted the omission of some, but not all of the clock pulses, thereby permitting squeezing twice the raw data transfer rate, and getting ALMOST, but definitely not quite, twice the info in the same space. Although you could get 10 * 256 on FM, you could only get about 18 256 byte sectors with MFM, and putting 10 512 byte sectors in MFM required seriously compromising the size of the intersector gaps to squeeze them in. > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 15:52:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:52:18 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <942712.43689.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <942712.43689.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4662C792.12797.10B9DAB3@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 13:37, Chris M wrote: > claims .000003 - .000005 inches thick or thereabouts. Doesn't anyone talk microns anymore? :-( I hate them zeroes... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 15:53:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the Dimension dimensions Message-ID: <939471.19652.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, Does anyone on this friggin list LOL LOL own a Northstar Dimension? I'd like to know it's dimensions (how quaint) and how much it weighs. I got a line on a few, and want to help the dude get a carton for it and all. Thanks so much. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 16:00:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <4662C792.12797.10B9DAB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <585221.6486.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jun 2007 at 13:37, Chris M wrote: > > > claims .000003 - .000005 inches thick or > thereabouts. > > Doesn't anyone talk microns anymore? :-( I hate > them zeroes... I guess you need to be a machinist to not-mind. I love the zeros. There's no ambiguity. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From grant at stockly.com Sun Jun 3 16:11:11 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:11:11 -0800 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <20070603125058.Y45414@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> >The "media type" hole on a 1.4M? >There exist some drives that ignore the "media type" hole, pqrticularly >many/most? of the ones that IBM used in the PS/2s. They rely on the disk >controller board to tell them when to go to reduced current. > >or the index hole on a 5.25"? The type hole on a 1.4M disk. >Did 1.4 support the DSK option of STAT? It gives some more info about the >format. >If so, try >B: >A:STAT DSK: No, but I did find a program: TARBELL MINI-FLOPPY DIAGNOSTIC OF 8-1-80 STANDARD VERSION 1.8 40 TRACKS 18 SECTORS >\Most PC floppy controllers will not handle FM/Single density. Use Dave's >test program on your PC to see if you have a chance. What I would really like to do is find some way of connecting a 3.5" disk drive to the MITS hard sectored controller card set. This would give me the 300 or so K and allow me to run MITS basic off of the disk. Do you know anything about how to do that? Is it possible? Maybe with a PLD to deal with soft/hard sectored stuff? I have not investigated anything yet so I am not sure what it would take. If its possible I'm sure I could get it done. Grant From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 16:37:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:37:57 -0700 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com>, <20070603125058.Y45414@shell.lmi.net>, <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4662D245.28879.10E3A4FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 13:11, Grant Stockly wrote: >> TARBELL MINI-FLOPPY DIAGNOSTIC OF 8-1-80 > STANDARD VERSION 1.8 > 40 TRACKS 18 SECTORS > > What I would really like to do is find some way of connecting a 3.5" disk > drive to the MITS hard sectored controller card set. This would give me > the 300 or so K and allow me to run MITS basic off of the disk. Do you > know anything about how to do that? Is it possible? Maybe with a PLD to > deal with soft/hard sectored stuff? So I was pretty close. The 1771 is keeping 128 byte sectors--which figures. IIRC, the MITS controller required an 8" drive. Just confugure a 1.44M as an 8" SS soft-sectored drive, use 26x128x77 format and enjoy the 250K that it brings you. Yes, you could generate index pulses with something like a PIC (you'd want to adjust the spacing to conform to the drive speed). But the 50K additional is, IMOHO, not worth it. Cheers, Chuck > > I have not investigated anything yet so I am not sure what it would > take. If its possible I'm sure I could get it done. > > Grant > > From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 16:39:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:39:26 -0600 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? Message-ID: I purchased a Qume QVT-101 terminal on ebay. I asked the seller how it would be packed for shipment. They didn't respond. I asked again. They didn't respond. I asked a third time, they responded "It will be shipped the usual way". I responded that since I've never purchased anything from them before that this doesn't answer my questions about how the item will be shipped. I don't want to receive damaged terminals from ebay anymore. I explained this to the seller. Instead of answering my simple question and reassuring me that it will be properly shippe, they just immediately open an ebay dispute on me and then have turned it into an "unpaid item strike". I've appealed the strike with ebay, but I doubt I'll get any love from them. So my question is -- what does this mean for me? Is it just listed as harsh negative feedback? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 16:42:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:42:54 -0600 Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:53:36 -0700. <348457.56143.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <348457.56143.qm at web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > > --- Richard wrote: > > > Plus I haven't seen a white ADM-3A before. Yellow, > > green, blue, yes. > > White, no. I know that Lear-Siegler would paint the > > case in a variety > > of colors, though. > > I have one. It's white on the top, light gray on the > bottom. I also have the classic light blue with darker > blue bottom ones. Never seen them in green or yellow > though. I have blue ADM-5s, green ADM-3s and a yellow ADM-3 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 16:47:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:47:15 -0600 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:39:26 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > [...] I've appealed the > strike with ebay, but I doubt I'll get any love from them. Well it appears I was too pessimistic about ebay. Within minutes of me appealing the strike it was removed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From davis at saw.net Sun Jun 3 17:02:00 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:02:00 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> [...] That compiler was obviously >>>> pre-ANSI or something. >>>> >>> K&R C allows . . . >>> >> There was enormous variation in C compilers. And there were lots of >> programmers that thought that anything that worked for them was therefore >> legit. For example, what would you expect from: >> (and would you really expect it to behave the same on other compilers?) >> >> N = 1; >> A[N++] = N++; >> > > I'd expect that to evaluate to a[1]=2 and n winds up being 3. But I'm weird. > > Wow! Having used all the compilers mentioned in this thread, I would have assumed a[1]=1 since the post incs *should not* happen until after the ; I'm missing the ambiguity, although hard rules for post inc were fuzzy back then. (70's-80's) Jim Davis. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 3 16:02:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 22:02:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 2, 7 07:42:25 pm Message-ID: > > On Jun 2, 2007, at 2:17 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> It has a DB-25 RS-232 connector apparently for hooking up to a > >> computer, > >> but I don't know if it's wired as DTE or DCE. Incidentally, did any company ever wire the DB25 RS232 connector on a _terminal_ as a DCE???? I've seen computers with connectors wired both ways, but I've never seen a terminal that wasn't a DTE (or for that matter a modem that wasn't a DCE) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 3 15:56:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 21:56:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 2, 7 07:42:25 pm Message-ID: > > Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female > > connectors > > on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. I found > > mine through > > some surplus outfit years ago at about half the price, and find it > > invalualble for answering questions like this... > > They still sell 'em...I saw one on the pegboard last week. That > is one of the most-used pieces of test equipment around here, even > though it barely qualifies as "test equipment". Anybody who doesn't > have one either 1) never works with async serial, or 2) needs one. ;) I'll go along with that. I have one, and I use it a lot more than my fancier RS232 test gear (like a Tekky datavoms terst). It's so easy just to plug in the LED tester and see (as you said) which pin the thing is transmitting on, which handshake lines is seems to be driving, and so on. I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been fine ever since. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 17:11:51 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <4662D49C.4000208@hawkmountain.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <4662D49C.4000208@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <20070603150732.L45414@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > I also believe if you are formatting the 3.5" drive at SD, you best be using > 720K 3.5" media... HD media will probably not work well, or not retain data > (much the same problem as using non HD formats on HD 5.25" disks). > I know I did SSSD on 720K 3.5" media on my Atari using my ATR8000. > Worked fine. A reasonable concern. But, good news (for a change). The problem with wrong media for 5.25" is an issue of 300 Oersted v 600 Oersted. 2:1 ratio But, ... 3.5" "720K" is about 600 Oersted, and "1.4M" is about 750 Oersted. 1.25:1 ratio Although you are still dealing with wrong coercivity, it is much less wrong than that of the 5.25". Therefore, 1.4M would not be different enough to prevent playing and some non-critical testing. However, try to get the right disks wonce you are using them for anything that matters. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 17:37:52 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <20070603152815.U45414@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > What I would really like to do is find some way of connecting a 3.5" disk > drive to the MITS hard sectored controller card set. This would give me > the 300 or so K and allow me to run MITS basic off of the disk. Do you > know anything about how to do that? Is it possible? Maybe with a PLD to > deal with soft/hard sectored stuff? Can you modify the 3.5" drive to give pulses at various additional points in its rotation? > I have not investigated anything yet so I am not sure what it would > take. If its possible I'm sure I could get it done. I think that it would be easier to stick with the soft-sector controller. First, get it working with 8" (about 250K) Then put in a 5.25" 1.2M drive and lie to the machine and say it's 8" (1.2M was designed for doing that) Then put in a 3.5" drive and continue the lie. To minimize the lie, use a 3.5" that can be jumpered for 360 RPM OK, you've got over 200K. AND, all of the "standard" CP/M 8"SSSD stuff will match up. Will the controller support double sided? or can it be modified for it? If so, you can get over 400K. Now put a 300RPM drive in. Modify the BIOS to support 80 track 5.25" and tell the machine that that is what it has. The virtual 8" will have over 400K, and the virtual 5.25" 80 track will have between 300 and 400K depending on format choices. All without any significant hardware issues. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 17:43:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:43:44 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: References: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 2, 7 07:42:25 pm, Message-ID: <4662E1B0.29790.111FDDFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 21:56, Tony Duell wrote: > I'll go along with that. I have one, and I use it a lot more than my > fancier RS232 test gear (like a Tekky datavoms terst). It's so easy just > to plug in the LED tester and see (as you said) which pin the thing is > transmitting on, which handshake lines is seems to be driving, and so on. > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > fine ever since. Add to that the little RS-232 "patch boxes"--one male, one female DB- 25 and a PCB in between with pads for each conductor and a hood that covers the whole works. I have several pre-wired and labeled with things like "null modem" "crossover", etc. I even have one labeled "Laplink parallel". Get enough of these and all you need are straight-through cables--and maybe a gender changer or two. No fooling around looking at a cable and saying "I wonder what this is for..." Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 17:44:20 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> Message-ID: <20070603154123.X45414@shell.lmi.net> > >> N = 1; > >> A[N++] = N++; On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, davis wrote: > Wow! Having used all the compilers mentioned in this thread, I would > have assumed a[1]=1 since the post incs > *should not* happen until after the ; I'm missing the ambiguity, > although hard rules for post inc were fuzzy back then. (70's-80's) Post incs not happening until after th ';' would be a reasonable way to implement it. BUT, K&R did not specify that. The post incs can be done any time after the value of N is fetched for evaluation until after the ';'. That is left as a decision for the compiler author to do in whatever way they want to implement it. Also, should we assume that N will be incremented twice? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 3 17:51:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 18:51:46 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> On Jun 3, 2007, at 2:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st >> century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear >> regulators? >> >> Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. > > Al, I confess to not having a good handle on this matter of what's > "vintage" and what's not. I was looking at 78xx linear regulators as > being "authentic". There's nothing "authentic" or even remotely elegant about 78xx regulators in my opinion. They're a current product, have been for decades, and probably will be for another two decades. > I mean, why bother with S-100 at all? There are > plenty of better busses now, right? "Better" is subjective...Better for what application? If you're designing a small system for, say, industrial automation, do you really want the expense and extreme complexity of something like PCI or VME? Having done PCI interfacing with an FPGA, I can say that getting something working on an S-100 bus involves a whole lot less hair pulling. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 3 18:07:36 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 00:07:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <354757.45701.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> As I understand it, you used to get banned from eBay if you got say 3 "unpaid item strikes". I got one once when I was bidding on and winning too many items. At that time all my eBay emails went to a second account which i forgot to check until about a month later! :( I had simply forgotten to pay for one of the items. I'm glad everything is sorted now though (see his last message in this thread). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Richard wrote: I purchased a Qume QVT-101 terminal on ebay. I asked the seller how it would be packed for shipment. They didn't respond. I asked again. They didn't respond. I asked a third time, they responded "It will be shipped the usual way". I responded that since I've never purchased anything from them before that this doesn't answer my questions about how the item will be shipped. I don't want to receive damaged terminals from ebay anymore. I explained this to the seller. Instead of answering my simple question and reassuring me that it will be properly shippe, they just immediately open an ebay dispute on me and then have turned it into an "unpaid item strike". I've appealed the strike with ebay, but I doubt I'll get any love from them. So my question is -- what does this mean for me? Is it just listed as harsh negative feedback? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 3 18:10:14 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 19:10:14 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <0B3772CB-63BC-42B4-BCF8-8C8E5003179B@neurotica.com> On Jun 3, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Grant Stockly wrote: >> That's a start. >> But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts. >> Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason. >> I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk. >> It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design >> I'm working on. >> Only if there's enough people interested of course. > > A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 > slots at a production quantity of 50. What are you basing this on? Have the connectors become unobtainable or something? PCB fab costs won't be anywhere near that high. (assuming you're talking about $250/ea) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 18:19:31 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 19:19:31 -0400 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46634C83.2070806@comcast.net> Grant, I think this is a cool idea. I'd like to help out in any way I can. Either with the design, schematics, etc. =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ cruising in cyberspace with no brakes ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Grant Stockly wrote: > >> The "media type" hole on a 1.4M? >> There exist some drives that ignore the "media type" hole, pqrticularly >> many/most? of the ones that IBM used in the PS/2s. They rely on the >> disk >> controller board to tell them when to go to reduced current. >> >> or the index hole on a 5.25"? > > The type hole on a 1.4M disk. > >> Did 1.4 support the DSK option of STAT? It gives some more info >> about the >> format. >> If so, try >> B: >> A:STAT DSK: > > No, but I did find a program: > > TARBELL MINI-FLOPPY DIAGNOSTIC OF 8-1-80 > STANDARD VERSION 1.8 > 40 TRACKS 18 SECTORS > >> \Most PC floppy controllers will not handle FM/Single density. Use >> Dave's >> test program on your PC to see if you have a chance. > > What I would really like to do is find some way of connecting a 3.5" > disk drive to the MITS hard sectored controller card set. This would > give me the 300 or so K and allow me to run MITS basic off of the > disk. Do you know anything about how to do that? Is it possible? > Maybe with a PLD to deal with soft/hard sectored stuff? > > I have not investigated anything yet so I am not sure what it would > take. If its possible I'm sure I could get it done. > > Grant > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 18:20:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:20:12 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com>, <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> Message-ID: <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 15:02, davis wrote: > I'm missing the ambiguity, although hard rules for post inc were > fuzzy back then. (70's-80's) In Sroustrup, x++ is stated to be evaluated as: t = x; x += 1; t; where t signifies a temporary. In other words, the ++ increment is performed at its occurrence within the statement, not after the remainder of the statement has been evaluated. So, in n=1; a[n++] = n++; all we know is that n will be incremented to 2 then to 3. But which side of the assignment gets incremented first? That's unspecified. A similar conundrum is: int f( int, int, int); n=1; f(++n, ++n, ++n); What gets passed to f? Why? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 18:35:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:35:07 -0600 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:17:35 -0400. <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <200706021417.36077.rtellason at verizon.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > On Thursday 31 May 2007 17:56, Rick Bensene wrote: > > =A0It has a DB-25 RS-232 connector apparently for hooking up to a compu= > ter, > > =A0but I don't know if it's wired as DTE or DCE. > > Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female conne= > ctors=20 > on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. I found mine thro= > ugh=20 > some surplus outfit years ago at about half the price, and find it=20 > invalualble for answering questions like this... I just picked up one of these off ebay recently for like $5. It has a nice little character chart for EBCDIC, ASCII and baudot, does current loop as well as RS-232 and has a cyclic character generator to create a repeating cycle of test characters. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 19:11:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:11:47 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 18:51, Dave McGuire wrote: >> There's nothing "authentic" or even remotely elegant about 78xx > regulators in my opinion. They're a current product, have been for > decades, and probably will be for another two decades. "Authentic"--yes. They were on almost all original S-100 boards. Which was my point. There are lots of great regulators now-- particularly the buck/boost models, but they wouldn't be "authentic" to the S-100 era. > "Better" is subjective...Better for what application? If you're > designing a small system for, say, industrial automation, do you > really want the expense and extreme complexity of something like PCI > or VME? At the time of the S-100 bus, there was already a better bus-- Multibus. It outlived S-100 by a very long time. If you want simple, try STD bus. But then, even ISA/PC-104 will do just fine for S-100 speeds. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Jun 3 19:41:47 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 01:41:47 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info><021301c7a4bc$3a65b760$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <001201c7a641$22833e20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > As far as I can tell from the crappy, low resolution pictures >he's got, it probably isn't missing any boards. I've never seen the inside of an 11/780, and as you say, the pictures are terrible.... TTFN - Pete. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 19:48:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:48:00 -0600 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Jun 2007 00:07:36 +0100. <354757.45701.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <354757.45701.qm at web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, Andrew Burton writes: > I'm glad everything is sorted now though [...] Well the seller is still being an asshole and refusing to answer a simple question about how the item would be shipped. He says he's going to relist it and stop wasting his time with me because I'm "playing games". Some people love to do things the hard way! He's wasted much more time dicking around trying to make a dispute out of this instead of just answering the question I posed to him after the sale completed. So now I know what an "unpaid strike" means. Still, I'd think that if you get one account cancelled because of unpaid strikes, you just open a new account, right? Yeah, you have to start your reputation all over again, but it seems that sellers don't care about a buyer's reputation -- they care about the buyer's money. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spc at conman.org Sun Jun 3 20:55:02 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 21:55:02 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070604015502.GB15693@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 3 Jun 2007 at 15:02, davis wrote: > > A similar conundrum is: > > int f( int, int, int); > > n=1; > f(++n, ++n, ++n); > > What gets passed to f? Why? Well, "++n" is more defined than "n++" is, and basically, pre-increment MUST happen before the value is used, so in this fragment, n will have three distinct values. As to what gets passed to f()? That's easy: n = 1; f(++n, ++n, ++n); is the same as f(4,3,2); That's because function parameters are evaluated right to left. The reason for that is due to the way early (and current) compilers were constructed and the need to support variable argument functions like printf() (it's a lot easier to find the first argument if you push them right to left, than left to right). -spc (Who avoids such bletcherous code) From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 21:26:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:26:16 -0400 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46637848.3020103@gmail.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > I am beginning to wonder if everybody is talking and nobody is > listening. We know that. You're not listening. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 21:39:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:39:51 -0400 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46637B77.4020700@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > I purchased a Qume QVT-101 terminal on ebay. I asked the seller how > it would be packed for shipment. They didn't respond. I asked again. > They didn't respond. I asked a third time, they responded "It will be > shipped the usual way". I responded that since I've never purchased > anything from them before that this doesn't answer my questions about > how the item will be shipped. I don't want to receive damaged > terminals from ebay anymore. I explained this to the seller. Instead > of answering my simple question and reassuring me that it will be > properly shippe, they just immediately open an ebay dispute on me and > then have turned it into an "unpaid item strike". I've appealed the > strike with ebay, but I doubt I'll get any love from them. > > So my question is -- what does this mean for me? Is it just listed as > harsh negative feedback? If you get three within a certain amount of time (180 days?) you get dropped. Usually no biggie. Peace... Sridhar From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Jun 3 22:11:30 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:11:30 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070604015502.GB15693@brevard.conman.org> References: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> <20070604015502.GB15693@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200706040311.l543BVgV014251@mail.itm-inst.com> At 09:55 PM 6/3/2007, Sean Conner wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > On 3 Jun 2007 at 15:02, davis wrote: > > > > A similar conundrum is: > > > > int f( int, int, int); > > > > n=1; > > f(++n, ++n, ++n); > > > > What gets passed to f? Why? > > Well, "++n" is more defined than "n++" is, and basically, pre-increment >MUST happen before the value is used, so in this fragment, n will have >three >distinct values. When did list this turn into comp.lang.c? > As to what gets passed to f()? That's easy: > > n = 1; > f(++n, ++n, ++n); > > is the same as > > f(4,3,2); Sorry, that's not correct. Take this program: #include #include void f(int a, int b, int c) { printf("%d %d %d\n", a, b, c); } main (int argc, char * argv[]) { int n = 1; f(++n, ++n, ++n); exit (0); } I compiled it using gcc. What comes out? 4 4 4 That's completely consistent with the standard. Any set of three numbers from 1 to 4 is arguably correct. The only thing that's guaranteed by "f(++n,++n,++n)" is that after the ";" n is incremented by 3. -Rick From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 4 00:24:32 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 01:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070603154123.X45414@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> <20070603154123.X45414@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200706040527.BAA00546@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> A[N++] = N++; > Post incs not happening until after th ';' would be a reasonable way > to implement it. BUT, K&R did not specify that. The post incs can > be done any time after the value of N is fetched for evaluation until > after the ';'. Not even - they can be done before the value is fetched, even, provided the fetched value is adjusted to compensate. > Also, should we assume that N will be incremented twice? I don't think K&R specified (ICBW; it's been a while since I read K&R v1). ANSI explicitly specifies that the resulting behaviour is undefined, which means it may be anything at all that the compiler is capable of arranging for; it need not even include any attempt to *read* N, much less increment it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 4 00:27:59 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 01:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com>, <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706040534.BAA00605@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > In Sroustrup, x++ is stated to be evaluated as: > t = x; > x += 1; > t; > where t signifies a temporary. If we're talking about C (which I thought we were), Stroustrup is not authoritative. The description you give is a reasonable working approximation, but is inexact; the way it places the increment at a specific time is one of the ways it is inexact. > In other words, the ++ increment is performed at its occurrence > within the statement, not after the remainder of the statement has > been evaluated. Yes, if that were how ++ were defined, that would be how it would be done. But it's not. > A similar conundrum is: > int f( int, int, int); > n=1; > f(++n, ++n, ++n); > What gets passed to f? Why? Anything or nothing - it is possible that f is not even called. Why? Because there is no sequence point between the evaluation of different arguments, so n is being incremented more than once without an intervening sequence point. This places it in "undefined behaviour" territory; the result may be anything whatsoever that the compiler is capable of arranging for. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 4 00:35:18 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 01:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070604015502.GB15693@brevard.conman.org> References: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> <20070604015502.GB15693@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200706040539.BAA00641@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...] > [...] > That's because function parameters are evaluated right to left. Not necessarily. They may be, but they also may be evaluated left to right, or in some other order - or even in no order at all; it's possible for them to be evaluated in parallel (on hardware where that's possible) or interleaved. Also, ++n does not necessarily mean that the increment happens before the value is fetched. The value resulting from ++n is the value after the increment, yes (assuming the increment actually happens - when we're in "undefined behaviour" territory, it might not). But there is no guarantee that this value is written to n (or anywhere else) until the next sequence point. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 15:23:22 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 21:23:22 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F92@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Your server (the VAX 4000-200) does have to be running DECnet. Er no it doesn't and isn't. I attended a 1976 DEC engineering meeting where this was discussed. It just my personal memory has a long access time. Download and run was around long before Decnet was thought of. There's no Decnet or any other normal network involved. I am also beginning to suspect that the whole cluster thing is another GRH (Giant Red Herring) Whats actually happening is an old diagnostic tool is being used to download and run a program on a remote system to exclude the disk drives from the test. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 03 June 2007 17:31 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Repairing the damage. >I am beginning to wonder if everybody is talking and nobody is >listening. >The target machine is not running anything except low level firmware That's how it works. >The server has to respond to the request (Remember No Decnet and No >Tcpip available) somehow or other. Your server (the VAX 4000-200) does have to be running DECnet. MOP is not technically part of DECnet but the MOP-handling software is started as part of DECnet. (Actually, there is a another way with more recent versions of OpenVMS, using the LANACP stuff but I assume you haven't done this). Maybe I've missed a message or to, but does your VAX 4000-200 have DECnet (either Phase IV or DECnet-Plus) installed and running? It would be very unusual if it didn't, but it is possible to install without it. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 13:40:21 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:40:21 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ200JXSP6C1LED@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:24:30 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Hi > 1. Where did you see all these crates. (I'm in the UK) I'm not, New England USA. > 2. Nice shiny new boards in old back planes ? Once I run an old backplane through a wash it's pretty good looking. Whats really needed is smaller backplanes in the range of 8 to 12 slots as most S100 crates wer 18-22 and large. Of course you also need the power supply(s) and an enclosure. So an old crate that may be missing boards is actually pretty handy. Allison >Rod > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison >Sent: 03 June 2007 12:34 >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > >> >>Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available >> From: "Rod Smallwood" >> Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:52:27 +0100 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >> >> >>Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. >>Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! >> >>Rod Smallwood > >There are plenty of S100 crates around usually with boards missing or damaged. >That is rarely a problem, Working bords to fill it or proto on are. > >Allison > > > >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >>[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason >>Sent: 02 June 2007 21:10 >>To: CCTECH >>Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available >> >>On Saturday 02 June 2007 10:26, Dan wrote: >>> I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I >>> noticed a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to >>> make this since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I >>> based this design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 >>> days. It's made by Electronic Control Technology. >>> >>> Here's a link to the picture >>> http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg >>> >> p >>> g> >>> >>> There were several different styles made before--each with their own >>> advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical >>> pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates >>> 2 voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of >>> solder pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. >>> >>> I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the >>> arrangement of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, >>> grid, etc. If I get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. >>> It's not much work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to >>> include 2 pcb designs at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of >>> S-100 designs. In the future, I like to setup a bigger panel to >>> include several more S-100 designs. >>> >>> Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and >>> offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and >>> intend to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is >>> interested, with enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. >> >>Hmm, good question! >> >>I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and such? And the Imsai, here. >> >>Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I >>lack a few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. >>:-( >> >>I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? >>That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a lot of sense. >> >>-- >>Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >>- >>Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. >>--James M Dakin >> >> >> > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 13:43:54 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:43:54 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ2005PXPC90LY1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:20:47 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Hi > Thanks for the positive feed back. Needless to say like all standards >S100 had different versions. >For example the Northstar Horizion had some active components on the >mother board. The fact that the mother board had IO on it was a savings of a card or two but made NO difference to S100 standards. The variation of standards were around timing, use of some specific pins, how memory extension (>64k) was done and the troublesome DMA. >However if we look at a basic passive (other than power) back plane. >What are the potential problems? Firstly the connectors are they >available? They had two rows of fifty connections. >Spacing pin to pin .125in. Mother board was thicker than the usual 1/16 >in for rigidity possibily 3/32 in. >Card guides pretty standard but how high? Then the metalwork supporting >the card guides. Generally backplanes were passive and interchangeable excluding mechanical differences that were generally small. Some however included termination and that was a plus as S100 can ring badly. >Possible Parts List > >1. Double sided S100 motherboard (Say twelve slots) >2. Aluminium base plate drilled for backplane and card guide >supports. >3. Twelve double sided 2x50 edge connectors. >4. Card guide support frame. >5. Twenty four card guides. >6. Nuts, bolts and screws etc. An outercase.. Power supplies in the case. Fans! Lots of fans! Allison >Rod Smallwood > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan >Sent: 03 June 2007 12:59 >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > >Rod, > >I see what you mean. I'm just starting off small right now since it's >mainly a hobby. It's mostly to support the existing vintage computers >out there. I really don't know what the demand there is for a new S-100 >chassis. I suppose that might be a good kit to build with the right >parts. I can look into this. > >=Dan > >[ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] > > > >Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage >with back plane and PSU. >> Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 13:51:17 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:51:17 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ2005MAPOK0LZ1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 11:39:32 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Al Kossow wrote: >> >> If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st >> century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear >> regulators? >> >> Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. the real problem was NOT the heat from the regulators but the heat from the rest of the board. 8K of 2102 memory produces a lot of heat and a box with 8 of them needed a good set of fans to move that heat. FYI: even the 2102LP parts were around 50mA each (512 *.05=25.6W) and the more common parts were around 80-100mA. Add regulators and that could easily total 40-60W of heat. Add a few IO, Floppy card and CPU and now your cooking. If the drives are in the box add fans accoringly. Dont forget the average 8V bus PSU was (in a decent box) rated to deliver that voltage at 25A (125W of 5V alone). Some boxes like the Compupro and Intergrand had CVCC transformers that typically ran hot as well. So the average S100 grate needed to move between 100 for a small system to as much as 500W of heat. >True, but with the advent modern chips like CMOS I see that >power consumption less of a problem. Is the proto-board >for 8 bit S-100 or 16 bit S-100 as I remember some where the buss >was upgraded for 16 bit processors? ( Can you say INTEL ? ) >If it where not for that fact, having De-codeing and buffer chips >laid out as that would save some space rather than in the pro-type >area. CMOS will help, denser memories (even back then) really help. Allison > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 18:24:25 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 00:24:25 +0100 Subject: Cluster Booting - What they dont tell you. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F93@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi As with many things the answer is very simple. The key is a program called LANCP invoked as $MCR LANCP on the boot server. It allows you to associate a name say VAX300 with a MAC address and add it to a database. It also allows you to set the name of the file to download and the root of the system. So far so good.... Now for the other half of the puzzle. How does the boot server listen for requests? Well there's an executable program call LANACP that is invoked by running LAN$STARTUP.COM Once running it services boot requests from across the network. It uses the data from the data base maintained by LANCP. It gives progress messages when a Node tries to boot. Once you have done that then, from the target system type >>>Boot EZA0: (ie the ethernet device on the target system) Lo and behold it downloads the file. It may well be the case that clusters use this system to boot satellite systems but you do not have to be a cluster to use it. We are not trying to make a cluster here. We are trying to boot a system that has empty disk drives. When I worked at DEC we were always warned that whilst .com files were very powerful things never to use them unless we understood what every line did. Further more each command line should be tested by entering it manually. I can now download a file to a target system just by typing Boot EZA0 at the >>> prompt. No Decnet, No Tcpip, No Clusters. The firmware on a VAX is independent of operating systems be they System or Network. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 03 June 2007 19:52 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Cluster Booting - What they dont tell you. Rod Smallwood wrote: > We can rule out @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN which expects Decnet > and screw's up TCPWARE. > > I'm out of ideas at this point. > Lessons > > 1. Never run a .COM file before looking to see what it does. cluster_config*_LAN*.com? You aren't meant to run that are you? At least, I've never done it that way. I've just attached a sample of invoking @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM on my VAX. If you never at least entered the MAC address of your satellite VAX then you definitely ran the wrong procedure! I thought you had V6.2 - the LANACP stuff popped in V7 sometime, for those who didn't want to install DECnet-Plus. I would expect the procedure (if you run the right one) to do the right thing (but I don't have a VAX with that config around to check right now). One other thing: > DEFINE NODE VAX300/ADDRESS=08-00-2B-18-BB-D0/FILE=APB_061.EXE Before you go to far down this path, this is used to boot an Alpha from an InfoServer (or at least that's what I think it is, my infoserver isn't in use right now). So I don't think this is what you want. CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM should as a few questions, set a bunch of stuff up and then wait for you to boot your VAX 4000-300. There's no way that you are expected to delve this deep into this stuff if you run the right procedure. Antonio KRAKAR::SYSTEM> @cluster_config Cluster Configuration Procedure Executing on a VAX System This system is running DECnet-Plus. DECnet will be used for MOP downline loading. To ensure that this procedure is executing with the required privileges, invoke it from the system manager's account. Enter a "?" for help at any prompt. If you are familiar with the execution of this procedure, you may want to mute extra notes and explanations by invoking it with "@CLUSTER_CONFIG BRIEF". KRAKAR is a VAX system and currently a member of a cluster so the following functions can be performed: MAIN MENU 1. ADD a VAX node to the cluster. 2. REMOVE a node from the cluster. 3. CHANGE a cluster member's characteristics. 4. CREATE a duplicate system disk for KRAKAR. 5. MAKE a directory structure for a new root on a system disk. 6. DELETE a root from a system disk. 7. EXIT from this procedure. Enter choice [1]: This ADD function will add a new VAX node to the cluster. WARNING: If the node being added is a voting member, EXPECTED_VOTES for every cluster member must be adjusted. For complete instructions check the section on configuring a cluster in the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. CAUTION: If this cluster is running with multiple system disks and common system files will be used, please, do not proceed unless appropriate logical names are defined for cluster common files in SYLOGICALS.COM. For instructions, refer to the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. Do you want to continue [N]? y For additional networking information, please refer to the DECnet-Plus Network Management manual. What is the node's DECnet fullname? LOCAL:.TEST What is the SCS node name for this node [TEST]? Do you want to define a DECnet synonym [Y]? What is the synonym name for this node [TEST]? What is the MOP service client name for this node [TEST]? What is the node's DECnet Phase IV address? 1.98 Will TEST be a satellite [Y]? WARNING: When the new node is a satellite, the network databases on KRAKAR are updated by this procedure. You must see to it that the network databases on all other cluster members are updated. On every boot node that may provide MOP service to the new satellite, also make certain SYS$MANAGER:NET$LOGICALS.COM contains the command: $ DEFINE NET$STARTUP_MOP TRUE For help, refer to the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. Does TEST need to be registered in the namespace [N]? Verifying circuits in network database... What is the Cluster Alias fullname? Note: KRAKAR has 1 LAN circuit(s) in the ON state, with service enabled. This procedure will establish circuit CSMACD-0 for KRAKAR's booting of TEST. What is TEST's LAN adapter hardware address? 08-00-2b-00-00-01 This procedure will now ask you for the device name of TEST's system root. The default device name (DISK$OPENVMS071:) is the logical volume name of SYS$SYSDEVICE:. What is the device name for TEST's system root [default DISK$OPENVMS071:]? What is the name of TEST's system root [SYS10]? Allow conversational bootstraps on TEST [N]? The following workstation windowing options are available: 1. No workstation software 2. DECwindows Workstation Software 3. VWS Workstation Software (not installed) Enter choice [1]: Creating directory tree SYS10 ... %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %SET-I-ENTERED, $1$DKA0:<000000>VMS$COMMON.DIR;1 entered as $1$DKA0:SYSCO MMON.DIR; %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created System root SYS10 created Will TEST be a disk server [N]? Updating network database... On all other boot nodes which may provide MOP DLL service to TEST, execute the following command: $ @SYS$MANAGER:NET$CONFIGURE "ALS_CONFIGURE" "ADD_CLIENT" - _$ "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]clu20200205.tmp3" "TEST" "08-00-2B-00-00-01" "1. 98" - _$ "DISK$OPENVMS071:" Configuration last run by SYSTEM on 28-JAN-1999 10:11:34.08 Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.760+01:00Iinf Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.860+01:00Iinf Characteristics Addresses = { 08-00-2B-00-00-01 , AA-00-04-00-62-04 (1.98) } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.870+01:00Iinf Characteristics Tertiary Loader = { sys$system:tertiary_vmb.exe } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.880+01:00Iinf Characteristics System Image = { "@net$niscs_laa(DISK$OPENVMS071:)" } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.890+01:00Iinf Characteristics Verification = '0000000000000000'H Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.890+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Host Name = KRAKAR Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.900+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Host Address = 1.150 Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.910+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Client Name = TEST Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.910+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Client Address = 1.98 %NET$CONFIGURE-I-MODCHECKSUM, checksumming NCL management scripts modified by NE T$CONFIGURE DELETE SYS$SPECIFIC:[SYSEXE]NET$CHECKSUM_NCL_LOCAL_SAVED.DAT;12 ? [N]: y DELETE SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]NET$CHECKSUM_NCL_COMMON_SAVED.DAT;12 ? [N]: a %PURGE-I-NOFILPURG, no files purged sys$manager:net$dns_clerk_startup.ncl changed to use the new default namespace. Your default namespace nickname is LOCAL. Your default namespace NSCTS is 08-00-2B-0D-C0-9D-5F-FA-A9-88-43-46-95-00. Clearing old local namespace entries prior to loading new entries Loading new local namespace node name entries Saving the new local namespace contents Maximum number of node names that can be loaded: 190 Number of node names that are currently loaded: 4 %NET$CONFIGURE-I-CONFIGCOMPLETED, DECnet-Plus for OpenVMS configuration complete d Size of pagefile for TEST [RETURN for AUTOGEN sizing]? A temporary pagefile will be created until resizing by AUTOGEN. The default size below is arbitrary and may or may not be appropriate. Size of temporary pagefile [10000]? Size of swap file for TEST [RETURN for AUTOGEN sizing]? A temporary swap file will be created until resizing by AUTOGEN. The default size below is arbitrary and may or may not be appropriate. Size of temporary swap file [8000]? Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? y Does TEST have any RFxx disks [N]? y Enter a value for TEST's ALLOCLASS parameter [1]: This procedure will now wait until TEST is a member of the cluster. Once TEST joins the cluster, this procedure will ask you which local disk it can use for paging and swapping. Please boot TEST now. Make sure the default boot device is set to be the LAN device appropriate for the satellite. See the hardware user manual or the console help command for instructions to do this. Waiting for TEST to boot... Waiting for TEST to boot... From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 20:29:46 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 02:29:46 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F94@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> >On top of that, S100 motherboards are still fairly easy to find. If anyone's >interested, I'll have some ready for sale in a couple weeks. And how much will they cost ? Populated? Whats included? How many slots? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith Sent: 03 June 2007 21:36 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 slots > at a production quantity of 50. On top of that, S100 motherboards are still fairly easy to find. If anyone's interested, I'll have some ready for sale in a couple weeks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 3 23:09:16 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 21:09:16 -0700 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? Message-ID: <4663906C.CB4CA118@rain.org> If you are listed as the buyer, you should still be able to leave appropriate feedback. Just be aware that the ebay system supports retalitory feedback by the other party even though Ebay officially disallows it (they lie consistantly.) Generally, you can avoid retalitory feedback by just not leaving feedback. The other way is to "snipe" the feedback at the 60 day limit of when you can leave feedback (or so I've been told.) > From: Richard > > Well the seller is still being an asshole and refusing to answer a > simple question about how the item would be shipped. He says he's > going to relist it and stop wasting his time with me because I'm > "playing games". Some people love to do things the hard way! He's > wasted much more time dicking around trying to make a dispute out of > this instead of just answering the question I posed to him after the > sale completed. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jun 4 01:40:44 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 23:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F94@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F94@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >On top of that, S100 motherboards are still fairly easy to find. If > anyone's >interested, I'll have some ready for sale in a couple weeks. > > And how much will they cost ? > Populated? > Whats included? > How many slots? I'm not sure how much they'll cost. Most of them are 12-slot boards, mostly Morrow Wunderbuss models of one sort or another. There's a big CompuPro chassis with 20-slot board and power supply. I also have a bunch of assorted cards. With summer approaching, I'll likely have more time to sell off this stuff. Oh, and those of you who wanted those 8-inch drives, I still have your names. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 01:41:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:41:56 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200706040534.BAA00605@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com>, <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <200706040534.BAA00605@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <466351C4.3203.12D5AA39@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 1:27, der Mouse wrote: > This places it in "undefined behaviour" territory; the result may be > anything whatsoever that the compiler is capable of arranging for. Just so--and this is one of dmr's original "what does it do?" examples from over 20 years ago. The "correct" answer is that "it's not possible to say without implementation-specific information." What's always rankled my sense of the Way Things Ought To Be is that the statement isn't syntactically illegal. It's just impossible to say for certain what it does. FWIW, both MS 32-bit and 16-bit C generates f(4,4,4). Change the prefix ++ to a postfix ++ and the two diverge: MS 32-bit generates f(1,1,1), but 16-bit generates f(3,2,1). Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 4 01:50:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 02:50:15 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jun 3, 2007, at 8:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> There's nothing "authentic" or even remotely elegant about 78xx > >> regulators in my opinion. They're a current product, have been for >> decades, and probably will be for another two decades. > > "Authentic"--yes. They were on almost all original S-100 boards. Yes, that's why I quoted "authentic". There's nothing (IMO) about the presence or absence of a 7805 that makes an S-100 board any more or less authentic...that's the point I was trying to get across. > Which was my point. There are lots of great regulators now-- > particularly the buck/boost models, but they wouldn't be "authentic" > to the S-100 era. Very true. >> "Better" is subjective...Better for what application? If you're >> designing a small system for, say, industrial automation, do you >> really want the expense and extreme complexity of something like PCI >> or VME? > > At the time of the S-100 bus, there was already a better bus-- > Multibus. It outlived S-100 by a very long time. > > If you want simple, try STD bus. But then, even ISA/PC-104 will do > just fine for S-100 speeds. Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products is twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking into account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related stuff. I wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been developed sooner? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 02:28:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 03:28:25 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4663BF19.7080004@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products is > twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking into > account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related stuff. I > wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been developed sooner? I don't have any experience from which to draw when trying to come up with a number for the amount of S-100 product out there, but I can say without hesitation that there is a metric buttload of STD-bus stuff out there, but only in specific arenas. You can get an STD-bus board (or boardset) to do pretty much anything you can think of in industrial control/manufacturing robotics. It's a very popular bus in that arena. Peace... Sridhar From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 02:30:55 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 02:30:55 -0500 Subject: DEC PC's and parts Message-ID: <624966d60706040030h748a8c4q59ba3bfd3c0a1e85@mail.gmail.com> I have 6 or more DEC PC's and parts which are really getting in my way. Any interest before I part them out? Feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul Anderson > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 4 03:00:57 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:00:57 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 03 Jun 2007 21:56:51 BST." Message-ID: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: [RE RS232 tester] > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > fine ever since. http://www.cpc.co.uk item number CS11237 4.88+VAT if you need replacement, I've just ordered one this weekend... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Jun 4 04:24:10 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 05:24:10 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net> I did a cost projection for the motherboard in my Imsai 8080 This is a 22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062" thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz copper. The copper thickness might be alittle more, but I couldn't see mentioned in the manual. This is only for a batch order--eg, pre-orders only (20x)., as I don't inventory bulk parts. With a batch order of 20 units, including shipping costs, it's only $35 each. Then with the 22x S-100 connectors, at $5 each, an additional $110. The kit would be $145, minus the nuts n bolts(that's easy to find) I might put this on my To-Do list. =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Grant Stockly wrote: > At 11:55 AM 6/3/2007, you wrote: > >> That's a start. >> But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts. >> Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason. >> I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk. >> It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design >> I'm working on. >> Only if there's enough people interested of course. > > A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 slots > at a production quantity of 50. > > > > From pdp11 at saccade.com Mon Jun 4 05:07:51 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 03:07:51 -0700 Subject: Properly "classic" digital cameras (and imaging) In-Reply-To: <004c01c7a31f$ee428900$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> <004c01c7a31f$ee428900$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706041008.l54A8Qk5086977@keith.ezwind.net> If you fudge "digital" camera to "electronic", my first goes back a bit further, to '91 or so. Canon offered something call the "Xapshot". It was a still video camera that stored the -analog- signal of a single video frame on a track of a small 1.5" microfloppy drive. It held 50 frames on one of those little floppies, though the picture quality degraded a bit on the inner tracks because the disk spun at a constant speed. You "uploaded" the photos by digitizing the image with a video card like the RasterOps 364. The little floppies gave the Xapshot one huge advantage over the actual digital cameras of the day - you could travel with it! The other "consumer" cameras of the era didn't have removable storage, and had to be emptied out at a computer after just a dozen pictures or so. The Xapshot did take color photos, but the quality was pretty grim, about 320x240 resolution accompanied by various analog video artifacts. It was a fun toy for the time, but I regret taking it on a European vacation in '92...all I have to show for the trip now is tiny, murky stills. A $50 35mm point 'n shoot would've done a much better job. Sony sold a similar still-video camera line called the "Mavica" (MAgnetic VIdeo CAmera). The Mavica line later morphed from still-video to true digital, storing the photos on 3.5" floppies. I no longer have the Xapshot...I sold it to a collector in the late '90s. Cheers, jp > > My oldest is not quite there--a Mustek VDC-300 from 1998.... > >That jogs my memory, my first digital camera was >a Mustek VDC-100. I bought it second hand in >1998 for ?50, it was already a couple of years old then. > >It was truly awful.... From pdp11 at saccade.com Mon Jun 4 05:30:54 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 03:30:54 -0700 Subject: DRAM camera sensor In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200706041031.l54AVHPG088075@keith.ezwind.net> You might be thinking of "Build the first Low-cost All Solid State TV Camera!", by Walker, Garland & Melen, Popular Electronics, Feb '75 (just after the famous Altair issue). It looks like Michael Holley hasn't scanned it in yet. >I remember a document from the 80s that described how to take a DRAM >chip, decap it, and use it as a crude camera. I think I remember >something about a lens too. It might have been a joke... From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jun 4 08:22:21 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 08:22:21 -0500 Subject: DRAM camera sensor - BYTE/PE articals posted In-Reply-To: <200706041031.l54AVHPG088075@keith.ezwind.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200706041225.l54CPN2O017235@hosting.monisys.ca> > You might be thinking of "Build the first Low-cost All Solid State TV > Camera!", by Walker, Garland & Melen, Popular Electronics, Feb '75 > (just after the famous Altair issue). > > It looks like Michael Holley hasn't scanned it in yet. > > >I remember a document from the 80s that described how to take a DRAM > >chip, decap it, and use it as a crude camera. I think I remember > >something about a lens too. It might have been a joke... For all those who have expressed interest, I have uploaded scans of the following documents to: www.dunfield.com/pub/index.htm Build the Micro D-CAM Solid State Video Camera / Byte Sep-Oct 83 Micron IS32 Optic RAM data sheet (used in above) Build Cyclops First all Solid-State TV camera for experimentors / Pop Elect. Feb 75 Regretably the first two are from rather poor photocopies (these issues are missing from my BYTE collection) - but are for the most part legible. These are in a temporary area, and will be gone when I need to reuse the space. Everyone/anyone is welcome to archive/post them as you see fit. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 07:34:35 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 08:34:35 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <20070602171434.P6937@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> <20070602171434.P6937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 6/2/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female > > > connectors on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. > > Last time that I got one from RS, I opened it before using it, and was > amazed to find soldering significantly worse than MY soldering. > Once resoldered, it worked OK Agreed. Mine was a blobby mess inside when I got it - looked great after a bit of touch-up. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jun 4 07:33:45 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 13:33:45 +0100 Subject: 11/04 or 11/34 PSU free for collection (UK) Message-ID: <466406A9.9000307@dunnington.plus.com> I'm having a bit of a clear-out, in order to make enough room to work in :-) The first item I've found that I don't want is the power supply from an 11/04 or 11/34, DEC part no. 70-13323-00. This is the big black box that goes on the back of the BA11 enclosure, and includes the two fans, the cables, etc, but not the power regulator bricks (it has space for four). It was in working order last time I checked. It's very heavy, so pickup from York only (unless you really want to spend a fortune on carriage). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jun 4 08:39:02 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 08:39:02 -0500 Subject: N* Advantage Tech manuak scanned Message-ID: <200706041242.l54Cg4ZU021256@hosting.monisys.ca> For any North Star Advantage owners... I have scanned the complete NorthStar Advantage Technical manual and posted it to my site (look under the North Star Advantage listing). This is a BIG book, and a very large (30M PDF) scan. It contains full technical descriptions, schematics etc. for the North Star Advantage computer. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Jun 4 08:13:52 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:13:52 -0400 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F92@EDISERVER.EDICONS.l ocal> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F92@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706041314.l54DDscN015964@mail.itm-inst.com> At 04:23 PM 6/3/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >Your server (the VAX 4000-200) does have to be running DECnet. Er no it >doesn't and isn't. I attended a 1976 DEC engineering meeting where this >was discussed. It just my personal memory has a long access time. >Download and run was around long before Decnet was thought of. I'm not sure why I'm responding to this troll, but I can't resist. The server must be running a MOP listener. That's the protocol that the client uses when you boot the ethernet device. MOP is a DECnet protocol. For many versions of VMS, the way you get a MOP listener is to install DECnet. For VMS 7.0 and later, there's a separate MOP listener that provides just that part of DECnet. >There's no Decnet or any other normal network involved. Crap. You MUST have a network to run a Local Area VAXcluster. You know, a *Local Area Network*? LAVC booting uses DECnet to boot. You can't make any of this work without a LAN, without DECnet. I suppose you'll keep flailing around hoping that something will work, blaming others for your mistakes. Enjoy yourself. >I am also >beginning to suspect that the whole cluster thing is another GRH (Giant >Red Herring) Huh? Nope, if you followed the very detailed directions you've been given, you could diskless boot the server. You could then try to get a disk set up and booted. Not a red herring at all. >Whats actually happening is an old diagnostic tool is being >used to download and run a program on a remote system to exclude the >disk drives from the test. LANCP is not an "old diagnostic tool" it's actually fairly recent. Using CLUSTER_CONFIG as you're supposed to will use it to set up the client download. Did you try that? Probably not. -Rick From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 4 11:56:24 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 10:56:24 -0600 Subject: NorthStar Advantage "Graphics CP/M"? Message-ID: What is it? I didn't know the Northstar's had graphics capabilities. Ebay items # 140125262346 140125261472 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Jun 4 12:52:47 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:52:47 -0500 Subject: NorthStar Advantage "Graphics CP/M"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4664516F.2010600@pacbell.net> Richard wrote: > What is it? I didn't know the Northstar's had graphics capabilities. > > Ebay items # 140125262346 140125261472 The horizon didn't have graphics (it just had serial ports), but the advantage has dot addressable graphics (monochrome, 640x200 or 640x240 I think). From grant at stockly.com Mon Jun 4 13:21:34 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 10:21:34 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> At 01:24 AM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >I did a cost projection for the motherboard in my Imsai 8080 >This is a 22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062" thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz copper. >The copper thickness might be alittle more, but I couldn't see mentioned >in the manual. > >This is only for a batch order--eg, pre-orders only (20x)., as I don't >inventory bulk parts. >With a batch order of 20 units, including shipping costs, it's only $35 each. >Then with the 22x S-100 connectors, at $5 each, an additional $110. >The kit would be $145, minus the nuts n bolts(that's easy to find) > >I might put this on my To-Do list. Where do you get S-100 connectors for $5 or huge 1/8" PCBs for $35? I use Imagineering for PCBs and I can't get $35 a piece for 1/8 FR4 11x13" (being conservative) unless I order 50 with a 3 week lead time. I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part number digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from the company they are $17-$20. : ) I've heard horror stories from Todd Fisher about cheap sockets... Grant From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 13:37:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:37:52 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4663F990.21067.15651D4A@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 2:50, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, that's why I quoted "authentic". There's nothing (IMO) about > the presence or absence of a 7805 that makes an S-100 board any more > or less authentic...that's the point I was trying to get across. Well, I don't know much about the nuances of this collecting thing. Does replacement of 74LS logic with, say, 74HCT logic lower the value of a vintage object? > Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products is > twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking into > account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related stuff. I > wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been developed > sooner? That's an interesting question, considering the variety of boards possible using the Multibus daughterboard system. Given the long life of Multibus and its deployment in industrial systems (as well as some Sun hardware), I wonder if the total production volume of Multibus boards isn't greater than that of S-100. Yet Multibus sems to get very little notice from the vintage collectors. Really a shame, since MB is much more of a well-thought-out design. At Durango, we had an MDS-800, but we also went "on the cheap" and purchased a Multibus cage and cards, some floppies and a PSU and built our own MDS-compatible (wooden) box as a backup. Not nearly as pretty or expandable, but it booted from the same ISIS-II floppy as did the MDS. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 13:42:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:42:52 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com>, <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net>, <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4663FABC.22059.1569B727@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote: > I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part number > digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold > plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from > the company they are $17-$20. : ) I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin" for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly in high-humidity environments. Is this not true? Cheers, Chuck From CaptnZilog at aol.com Mon Jun 4 14:03:38 2007 From: CaptnZilog at aol.com (CaptnZilog at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 15:03:38 EDT Subject: who invented IDE? (Chuck Guzis) Message-ID: >In the beginning it was *interesting* working with different vendor >implementations of ATA. For example, Maxtor, initially swapped the >order of the words in the "total number of sectors" field in the >IDENTIFY command return. I remember back when 386's were over our "capital expense" limit ($1000) at work, we would piece together 386's for the engineers to get them the best machines. We were buying Conner 80MB drives at the time, so we built this guy a machine with a Conner-80MB in it, and a few months later he was running low on space and wanted another drive, so we bought *another* (same model) Conner-80MB. No matter what I tried, they would not work together either way around as master/slave. Looking at the model#, one was "rev-A" and one was "rev-B". We wound up throwing a Maxtor 80MB in with it - with *either* Conner drive and a Maxtor, it worked fine. Found it quite humorous that two drives from the same manufacturer wouldn't work together, but both worked fine with a competitors drive. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 14:08:45 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:08:45 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663FABC.22059.1569B727@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com>, <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net>, <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <4663FABC.22059.1569B727@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4664633D.7060107@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote: > >> I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part number >> digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold >> plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from >> the company they are $17-$20. : ) > > I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin" > for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be > galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly > in high-humidity environments. > > Is this not true? Only on the tin side. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 4 14:11:58 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 13:11:58 -0600 Subject: NorthStar Advantage "Graphics CP/M"? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:52:47 -0500. <4664516F.2010600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In article <4664516F.2010600 at pacbell.net>, Jim Battle writes: > The horizon didn't have graphics (it just had serial ports), but the > advantage has dot addressable graphics (monochrome, 640x200 or 640x240 I > think). Interesting! I see our old friend "computermkt" has one on ebay for only $800 plus another $55 for shipping. How common are the Advantage machines? It would be another nice milestone in personal computer graphics (old-computers.com says the Advantage came out in 1982, which makes it pretty significant historically). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jun 4 14:12:38 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 14:12:38 -0500 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday Message-ID: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a Symbolics model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all the needed cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two hard drives mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some software. Anyone would information please email me. Thanks John From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 14:34:01 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:34:01 -0400 Subject: who invented IDE? (Chuck Guzis) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46646929.7000509@gmail.com> CaptnZilog at aol.com wrote: > No matter what I tried, they would not work together either way around as > master/slave. Looking at the model#, one was "rev-A" and one was "rev-B". We > wound up throwing a Maxtor 80MB in with it - with *either* Conner drive and > a Maxtor, it worked fine. Found it quite humorous that two drives from the > same manufacturer wouldn't work together, but both worked fine with a > competitors drive. That doesn't surprise me. Back in the day, I had no end of trouble getting Conner drives (of various size -- mostly matched models) of the same revision to sit on a bus together and behave. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 14:39:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:39:35 -0400 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> References: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <46646A77.7030909@gmail.com> Keys wrote: > Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a > Symbolics model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all > the needed cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two > hard drives mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some > software. Anyone would information please email me. Is the power cord that non-standard? I would understand that they might need something beefier than an IEC C13/C14 for how much power something like that pulls. Is it a C19/C20, maybe? That's what my DEC GIGAswitch uses. Peace... Sridhar From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 4 14:42:23 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:42:23 +0100 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <466351C4.3203.12D5AA39@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <003101c7a6e0$7acba500$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What's always rankled my sense of the Way Things Ought To Be is that > the statement isn't syntactically illegal. It's just impossible to > say for certain what it does. The whole point of C was (is?) to be fast. So in certain areas the compiler writer is given a certain latitude to do whatever turns out to be "best" for the compiler. So the standard writers aren't being particularly capricious, they are deliberately avoiding tying down the compiler writers with red tape. Whether this is a good idea or not is a different area altogether. (And one that has been decided by historical precedent). Antonio From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jun 4 15:38:51 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 15:38:51 -0500 Subject: NorthStar Advantage "Graphics CP/M"? In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:52:47 -0500. <4664516F.2010600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200706041944.l54JiTUx022307@keith.ezwind.net> > What is it? I didn't know the Northstar's had graphics capabilities. I'm not sure whats with "Graphics CP/M" as far as I can tell CP/M itself is text mode on the Advantage, although some applicatons were ported/created to/for the Advantage which used it's graphical abilities. NorthStar did provide a graphics version of BASIC under N* DOS for the Advantage. > > The horizon didn't have graphics (it just had serial ports), but the > > advantage has dot addressable graphics (monochrome, 640x200 or 640x240 I > > think). And quite impressive considering the time period - If you have an Advantage and have not done so yet, run the diagnostics/demonstration disk and see the graphics demos (I have it on my site). One of these days I'm going to take some screen shots to post on the site. I wanted one "so bad" when they were current and I had no budget. > Interesting! I see our old friend "computermkt" has one on ebay for > only $800 plus another $55 for shipping. How common are the Advantage > machines? It would be another nice milestone in personal computer > graphics (old-computers.com says the Advantage came out in 1982, which > makes it pretty significant historically). Although it was cutting edge at the time, it seemed to go largly unnoticed, and most people have never heard of it. There not that common, but they do turn up from time to time. $800 seems way-overpriced to me. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 4 14:45:20 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:45:20 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Tony Duell wrote: > ways, but I've never seen a terminal that wasn't a DTE (or for that > matter a modem that wasn't a DCE) Well if you are wiring up your new TERMINAL and you have the standard in front of you with a page that says data TERMINAL equipment then you'd have to be pretty bloody minded to be different :-) You'd also have interoperability issues (as you would with modems, no?) Having said that, someone must have done it just to be contrary :-) Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 15:06:52 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20070604130621.R93330@shell.lmi.net> > [RE RS232 tester] > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > > fine ever since. some things should be opened and examined BEFORE use. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jun 4 15:08:31 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 16:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NorthStar Advantage "Graphics CP/M"? In-Reply-To: <200706041944.l54JiTUx022307@keith.ezwind.net> References: Your message of Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:52:47 -0500. <4664516F.2010600@pacbell.net> <200706041944.l54JiTUx022307@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2007, dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > And quite impressive considering the time period - If you have an Advantage > and have not done so yet, run the diagnostics/demonstration disk and see > the graphics demos (I have it on my site). One of these days I'm going to > take some screen shots to post on the site. Tandy had a graphics option board for the TRS-80 Model 4 which would do 640x240 (mono), part #26-1126. I have one installed in a Model 4P - there's a picture of a graphics demo on this page: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Tandy/Model4p.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 15:08:10 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <251380.13418.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Well if you are wiring up your new TERMINAL and you > have the standard > in front of you with a page that says data TERMINAL > equipment then > you'd have to be pretty bloody minded to be > different :-) > Having said that, someone must have done it just to > be contrary :-) Well, they never could decide on what gender to make the connectors on the back of the terminal... -Ian From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jun 4 15:18:41 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:18:41 -0700 Subject: Terminals with DCE (Was: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals?) In-Reply-To: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: > Tony Duell wrote: > > ways, but I've never seen a terminal that wasn't a DTE (or for that > > matter a modem that wasn't a DCE) > > Well if you are wiring up your new TERMINAL and you have the > standard in front of you with a page that says data TERMINAL > equipment then you'd have to be pretty bloody minded to be > different :-) > > You'd also have interoperability issues (as you would with > modems, no?) > > Having said that, someone must have done it just to be contrary :-) I have run across a number of terminals that had DCE wiring on their DB-25 RS-232 connectors. IIRC there was an early Ann Arbor terminal that was wired this way. I also recall a NEC-made terminal that also had this weird wiring. Lastly, there was a very strang little terminal that used a dot-matrix LED display (1 line by 80 characters) that was "portable" and ran off of a rechargeable battery pack (not for long) that was also wired this way. It did have a built in modem, so you could just plug a phone line into it (110 or 300 baud), but if you wanted to use it "hard wired" to a computer, you had to use a null modem and some gender benders. With regard to the TEC terminal, I still haven't gotten around to posting photos yet. Will do so soon. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 15:33:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 13:33:44 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <003101c7a6e0$7acba500$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <466351C4.3203.12D5AA39@cclist.sydex.com>, <003101c7a6e0$7acba500$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <466414B8.20525.15CF370A@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 20:42, Antonio Carlini wrote: > The whole point of C was (is?) to be fast. So in certain areas the > compiler writer is given a certain latitude to do whatever turns > out to be "best" for the compiler. So the standard writers aren't being > particularly capricious, they are deliberately avoiding tying down the > compiler writers with red tape. Trudging even further afield from the topic at hand... The odd thing about this is that it seems to be that the more restrictive the language spec, the better an automatic optimizer is able to work with the code. I mentioned that C pointers were misery for an optimizer, while FORTRAN (absent various vendor extensions) does not have them, making it easier to optimize automatically (at least in the sense of determining side effects). Cheers, Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jun 4 15:36:15 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 15:36:15 -0500 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday References: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> <46646A77.7030909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00de01c7a6e8$055e5440$32406b43@66067007> Looks like a L21-30 plug mount in rear of computer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday > Keys wrote: >> Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a Symbolics >> model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all the needed >> cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two hard drives >> mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some software. >> Anyone would information please email me. > > Is the power cord that non-standard? I would understand that they might > need something beefier than an IEC C13/C14 for how much power something > like that pulls. Is it a C19/C20, maybe? That's what my DEC GIGAswitch > uses. > > Peace... Sridhar From grant at stockly.com Mon Jun 4 15:52:51 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:52:51 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663F990.21067.15651D4A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125039.032516b0@pop.1and1.com> At 10:37 AM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >On 4 Jun 2007 at 2:50, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Yes, that's why I quoted "authentic". There's nothing (IMO) about > > the presence or absence of a 7805 that makes an S-100 board any more > > or less authentic...that's the point I was trying to get across. > >Well, I don't know much about the nuances of this collecting thing. >Does replacement of 74LS logic with, say, 74HCT logic lower the value >of a vintage object? Someone built one of my Altair replica PCBs and went to great lengths to make sure the date code on the ICs was older than 1975. They also sourced the old brown cylindrical resistors. I provide the exact same parts that were on the origional BOM, but don't try to match date codes! : ) I guess everyone has their own idea of what is vintage enough. From grant at stockly.com Mon Jun 4 15:55:01 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:55:01 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663FABC.22059.1569B727@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125329.034be3a0@pop.1and1.com> At 10:42 AM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote: > > > I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part > number > > digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold > > plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from > > the company they are $17-$20. : ) > >I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin" >for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be >galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly >in high-humidity environments. > >Is this not true? I'm not sure. I have a 30 year old Altair with gold plated sockets and tin plated boards. Works fine and I don't see any oxidation. I pay about $5-7 extra per PCB to get gold plated fingers, just because people buying my kit are most likely not buying it for what it does but more likely what it looks like. : ) From grant at stockly.com Mon Jun 4 16:04:09 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 13:04:09 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125329.034be3a0@pop.1and1.com> References: <4663FABC.22059.1569B727@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604130212.03586ef8@pop.1and1.com> At 12:55 PM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >At 10:42 AM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >>On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote: >> >> > I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part >> number >> > digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold >> > plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from >> > the company they are $17-$20. : ) >> >>I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin" >>for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be >>galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly >>in high-humidity environments. >> >>Is this not true? > >I'm not sure. I have a 30 year old Altair with gold plated sockets and >tin plated boards. Works fine and I don't see any oxidation. I pay about >$5-7 extra per PCB to get gold plated fingers, just because people buying >my kit are most likely not buying it for what it does but more likely what >it looks like. : ) There is also a concern over ROHS solder and gold plated pins. I remember words like leaching, cracking...basically bad stuff. Plus, $15 for gold contacts and tinned pins, or $30 for gold pins and contacts... From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 16:14:10 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 14:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Terminals with DCE (Was: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals?) In-Reply-To: References: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <20070604140634.B93330@shell.lmi.net> If you have a terminal (particularly one with its own built-in modem), that has a port for an external printer, then that may be wired DCE. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 4 16:15:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:15:09 -0600 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125039.032516b0@pop.1and1.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125039.032516b0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <466480DD.9020203@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > > Someone built one of my Altair replica PCBs and went to great lengths to > make sure the date code on the ICs was older than 1975. They also > sourced the old brown cylindrical resistors. > I provide the exact same parts that were on the origional BOM, but don't > try to match date codes! : ) > I guess everyone has their own idea of what is vintage enough. I draw the line at Vintage smoke. Since most people want to run a classic computer first rather display it I think the stuff on the BOM is fine. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 16:18:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:18:41 -0400 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <00de01c7a6e8$055e5440$32406b43@66067007> References: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> <46646A77.7030909@gmail.com> <00de01c7a6e8$055e5440$32406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <466481B1.7030000@gmail.com> Keys wrote: > Looks like a L21-30 plug mount in rear of computer. Non twist-lock? That's pretty strange too, isn't it? Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jun 4 16:31:44 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:31:44 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? References: <251380.13418.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <466484B6.5B002FBA@cs.ubc.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > Well if you are wiring up your new TERMINAL and you > > have the standard > > in front of you with a page that says data TERMINAL > > equipment then > > you'd have to be pretty bloody minded to be > > different :-) > > > Having said that, someone must have done it just to > > be contrary :-) > > Well, they never could decide on what gender to make > the connectors on the back of the terminal... Indeed, I couldn't say whether I ever saw a terminal that was actually *electrically* wired as DCE, but there was no shortage of terminals and other equipment that got the gender wrong. I don't have the RS232 spec in front of me but I have always been of the understanding that it explicitly specifies that DCE shall be a female connector and DTE male. You should be able to simply look at the gender of the connector and know whether it was DCE or DTE. You would also be able to look at a cable and know (in part) what it did: a M-F cable would be straight thru, a F-F cable would be a null modem. It has always been a source of annoyance (to me) with such equipment that you can't rely on this and have to check everything. (Either that or somebody correct me about the spec.!) I actually just received an old (70s) RS232 breakout box. Rather than having a male and a female DB25 which would make it trivial to insert in a line, it has two female DB25s, which not only violates the spec but pretty much guarantees that you're going to have to monkey around with an additional gender-changing cable whenever you use it! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 16:38:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 17:38:18 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <466480DD.9020203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125039.032516b0@pop.1and1.com> <466480DD.9020203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Grant Stockly wrote: > > > Someone built one of my Altair replica PCBs and went to great lengths to > > make sure the date code on the ICs was older than 1975. They also > > sourced the old brown cylindrical resistors. I've been known to do that, but for much more trivial examples - when I built my 1976-design Elf, I did the best I could on chips (my CPU and memory were of the period, but I have not yet tracked down a 74L00 for the clock divider circuit), but I was happy to have a bin of vintage brown cylindrical resistors for the pullups. I had to compromise on the regulator - the oldest one I could find in my junk bin was an LM340T. Obviously, the computer doesn't care, but I wanted something that would have looked as if I had made it when I first got into computers as a kid. A complete indulgence to nostalgia. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 16:30:22 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 14:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3174 Terminal Controller Message-ID: <940188.93363.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, this has been one of those ideas that has been at the back of my mind for a long time - I would like to interface one of these IBM terminals I have around the house to something. Anything. I was thinking about an emulated mainframe on Hercules or something. But the thing that brings this to the foreground in my thoughts is that today I had to troubleshoot a 3174-51R at a customer's site. This thing is connected, via a rather unusual cable, to a Cisco 2500 series router, so that means the 25 pin connector on the back must be some form of X.25 or something like that. I know that the fellow at corestore.org has been able to get a real IBM terminal to telnet into an emulated system via a terminal controller with built in ethernet (although I have never seen one). Anyone done this before? What do I need to hunt for? I now have one piece of the puzzle that I was never able to find before - the manual for the 3174-51R. Now the terminal controller's operation can be deciphered. But, of course, I don't have the 3174. -Ian From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jun 4 16:39:11 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:39:11 -0700 Subject: Terminals with DCE (Was: Anyone know anything about old TECTerminals?) References: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <46648674.2235CC76@cs.ubc.ca> Rick Bensene wrote: > > I have run across a number of terminals that had DCE wiring on their > DB-25 RS-232 connectors. > IIRC there was an early Ann Arbor terminal that was wired this way. I ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ .. funny, that's one I was recalling as a problem (an otherwise nice basic terminal). From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 16:44:00 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 17:44:00 -0400 Subject: How do I get my money back? (from dishonest ebay seller) Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=260115466844 I sent her $50 post office money order, including some extras for better packaging. But she did not answer emails, and she did not send me anything. She cheated some 10+ other people in the same period of time. I know, she had negative feedback back in 2002 before these recent auctions. But her auctions did not look like fraud when I bid. I heard that it is classified as mail fraud. If I report to the mail office, at least they are going to send her a letter to threaten her. Does anybody here have such experience? How do I proceed? Help please. vax, 9000 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jun 4 16:49:01 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:49:01 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125329.034be3a0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <466488C3.AD6B7A87@cs.ubc.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > >I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin" > >for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be > >galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly > >in high-humidity environments. > > > >Is this not true? > > I'm not sure. I have a 30 year old Altair with gold plated sockets and tin > plated boards. Works fine and I don't see any oxidation. I pay about $5-7 > extra per PCB to get gold plated fingers, just because people buying my kit > are most likely not buying it for what it does but more likely what it > looks like. : ) I would have thought as Chuck did, however I scrapped some circa-1969 Hewlett-Packard reed-scanners 3-4 years ago which were similarly tin-plate PCB fingers in gold-plated sockets. The tin plate was as shiny and clean as if it just came out of the dip! From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Jun 4 17:42:42 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 4 Jun 2007 15:42:42 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <20070604130621.R93330@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> <20070604130621.R93330@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1180996962.466495622094f@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Fred Cisin : > > [RE RS232 tester] > > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to > the > > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's > been > > > fine ever since. > > some things should be opened and examined BEFORE use. > I recently purchased some diagnostic circuit boards and they are terrible, I am seriously considering getting a rework station and removing all the non lead based solder and re soldering them with good old fashioned lead based solder, the soldier joints are horrible and there is some odd contamination (perhaps some different flux they have to use with it) that comes to the surface when you re solder the existing solder joints (black flecks) I contacted the dealer i got them from and they told me that was normal for the lead-free solder that they use now 0.o From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 16:58:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 22:58:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <4662E1B0.29790.111FDDFD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 3, 7 03:43:44 pm Message-ID: > > Add to that the little RS-232 "patch boxes"--one male, one female DB- > 25 and a PCB in between with pads for each conductor and a hood that > covers the whole works. I have several pre-wired and labeled with I just bought the empry housiongs nad fitted my own connectors, which I hard-wired appropraitely (no PCB)> That means my null-modems have socks on both ends, for example. Be warned there was a ready-made 'null modem' adapter sold by Maplin in the UK that had _cray_ wiring. I am not sure what it was designed to work with, but I could find nothing that it was correct for. > things like "null modem" "crossover", etc. I even have one labeled > "Laplink parallel". Get enough of these and all you need are > straight-through cables--and maybe a gender changer or two. No The 'unviersal gender cable' is handy. Take a length of 25 way IDC ribbon cable (e.g . strip 1 wire off some 26 way) about 2' long. Crimp a DB25 plug and a DB25 socket at each end (4 connectors total) making sure all the pin 1s go to the same wire. Mkke a couple of them and you have no need for gender benders. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 17:37:33 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 23:37:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jun 4, 7 09:00:57 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Tony Duell said: > > [RE RS232 tester] > > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > > fine ever since. > > http://www.cpc.co.uk item number CS11237 4.88+VAT And +postage presumably. From what I remmber (from needing some drvie belts for a cassette recorder), CPC has a fairly high handling charge on small orders. > if you need replacement, I've just ordered one this weekend... Unless mine gets run over by a traction engine, I am unlikely to need to replacve it. If an LED fails, I'll (as ever) jsut replace that LED. It's not exactly hard to fault-trace or repair... On the other hand I might get a couple more to be able to monitor several ports at once. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 17:33:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 23:33:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: <4663906C.CB4CA118@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Jun 3, 7 09:09:16 pm Message-ID: > Generally, you can avoid retalitory feedback by just not leaving feedback. The > other way is to "snipe" the feedback at the 60 day limit of when you can leave > feedback (or so I've been told.) Be careful. I've never had cuase to do this, so I am not sure, but I've been told that if you know the auction number (for want of the better term) yuo can leave feedback after the 60 day limit. So sniping may not prevent retaliation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 17:44:28 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 23:44:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 4, 7 08:45:20 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > ways, but I've never seen a terminal that wasn't a DTE (or for that > > matter a modem that wasn't a DCE) > > Well if you are wiring up your new TERMINAL and you have the standard > in front of you with a page that says data TERMINAL equipment then > you'd have to be pretty bloody minded to be different :-) I would agree, which is why I am puzzled that the OP was wondering if his terminal was a DTE ora DCE. > > You'd also have interoperability issues (as you would with modems, no?) > > Having said that, someone must have done it just to be contrary :-) I'd be interested to know who.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 17:45:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 23:45:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <20070604130621.R93330@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 4, 7 01:06:52 pm Message-ID: > > > [RE RS232 tester] > > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > > > fine ever since. > > some things should be opened and examined BEFORE use. Yes, I know that _now_ (and indeed, pull the covers of everything I buy now). But this was 20 years agom, before I'd had as much experience. -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jun 4 18:07:05 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 19:07:05 -0400 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:12:38 CDT." <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Keys" wrote: >Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a Symbolics >model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all the needed >cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two hard drives >mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some software. Anyone >would information please email me. I'm not sure abot power on a 3640. My 3630 has stock power cord. The "refrigerator" 3600's are another matter - those are circular but you can make an adapter easily. (if I remember right the 3640 is just an "L" machine - i.e. stock TTL; the 3630 is a G machine, which has FPGA's) You're going to need a keyboard. And more important, a cable from the monitor to the machine. If you are luck it will just boot. Does it have a cart tape drive? if so, assume the roller is goo. I would not use it unless you replace the rubber parts. I would get in touch with David Schmidt in VA. He can get a keyboard for you and a monitor cable. -brad From grant at stockly.com Sun Jun 3 22:28:57 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 19:28:57 -0800 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <46634C83.2070806@comcast.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603191855.036e9318@pop.1and1.com> At 03:19 PM 6/3/2007, you wrote: >Grant, > >I think this is a cool idea. >I'd like to help out in any way I can. >Either with the design, schematics, etc. Getting a drive working with MITS software? I have a lot of MITS software on 8" hard sectored disks and I would like to move that onto other disks without having to modify boot code. One example is MITS Music Basic, or the Music Operating System. I found someone who has it and it is in the "FedEx" right now. : ) MITS was working on a 4 voice music card and had a special version of basic written for it. There is even a version of Star Trek with sound effects! I want to be able to preserve this stuff as historically accurate as possible. It would be MUCH easier to use a flash memory chip and emulate the entire disk subsystem at the I/O port level. I can't seem to find any MMC, SD, or compact flash cards in the 1-4MB range dirt cheap. I thought that with flash memory prices being low I could find some. I want to retain the physical piece per disk feel and not have all the disks in one memory image. So this means I have to have a cheap media source. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 18:24:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 16:24:35 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: References: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jun 4, 7 09:00:57 am, Message-ID: <46643CC3.13357.166BA465@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 23:37, Tony Duell wrote: >> Unless mine gets run over by a traction engine, I am unlikely to need to > replacve it. If an LED fails, I'll (as ever) jsut replace that LED. It's > not exactly hard to fault-trace or repair... If I did more of RS-232 troubleshooting, I'd probably want one with a pulse stretcher on at least SD and RD. At 115K, it's pretty hard to notice a one-character blip. I don't know if any were made like this, but it wouldn't be hard to cobble one up. Cheers, Chuck From James at jdfogg.com Mon Jun 4 18:30:27 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 19:30:27 -0400 Subject: 3174 Terminal Controller Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256E19@sbs.jdfogg.com> > But the thing that brings this to the foreground in my > thoughts is that today I had to troubleshoot a 3174-51R at a > customer's site. This thing is connected, via a rather > unusual cable, to a Cisco 2500 series router, so that means > the 25 pin connector on the back must be some form of X.25 or > something like that. I know that the fellow at corestore.org > has been able to get a real IBM terminal to telnet into an > emulated system via a terminal controller with built in > ethernet (although I have never seen one). This is usually SDLC that is source-route-bridged over IP. S390 Open System Adapters (or whatever they called the ethernet/ip adapters for old S390's) could talk SRB/IP. It's been 13 years since I played with these. So, on the "cluster controller" (3174) end you have stock SDLC via synchronous serial on either RS232 or V.35. On the server end you'll need to get hercules to emulate an OSA. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 18:31:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 16:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070604163050.O93330@shell.lmi.net> > > some things should be opened and examined BEFORE use. > On Mon, 4 Jun 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, I know that _now_ (and indeed, pull the covers of everything I buy > now). But this was 20 years agom, before I'd had as much experience. it's hard to resist an opportunity to "tell grandpa how to suck eggs" From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 4 18:48:48 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 19:48:48 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663F990.21067.15651D4A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4663F990.21067.15651D4A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2444E735-A730-4F53-B63D-836ABF63AC4E@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yes, that's why I quoted "authentic". There's nothing (IMO) about >> the presence or absence of a 7805 that makes an S-100 board any more >> or less authentic...that's the point I was trying to get across. > > Well, I don't know much about the nuances of this collecting thing. > Does replacement of 74LS logic with, say, 74HCT logic lower the value > of a vintage object? I guess that depends on the collector. I still have a hard time considering S-100 stuff "collectible" because every piece of S-100 gear I own is something I've had since it was current technology. I thought, though, we were originally talking about *brand new* S-100 boards. >> Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products is >> twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking into >> account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related stuff. I >> wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been developed >> sooner? > > That's an interesting question, considering the variety of boards > possible using the Multibus daughterboard system. Given the long > life of Multibus and its deployment in industrial systems (as well as > some Sun hardware), I wonder if the total production volume of > Multibus boards isn't greater than that of S-100. Yet Multibus sems > to get very little notice from the vintage collectors. Really a > shame, since MB is much more of a well-thought-out design. Agreed. But it just doesn't seem to be anywhere near as common. Very odd. > At Durango, we had an MDS-800, but we also went "on the cheap" and > purchased a Multibus cage and cards, some floppies and a PSU and > built our own MDS-compatible (wooden) box as a backup. Not nearly as > pretty or expandable, but it booted from the same ISIS-II floppy as > did the MDS. Oh that sounds cool. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 4 18:55:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 19:55:15 -0400 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <46646A77.7030909@gmail.com> References: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> <46646A77.7030909@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 4, 2007, at 3:39 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a >> Symbolics model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, >> and all the needed cables (power cord also). I opened the front >> door and saw two hard drives mounted inside. Will also be looking >> for manuals and some software. Anyone would information please >> email me. > > Is the power cord that non-standard? I would understand that they > might need something beefier than an IEC C13/C14 for how much power > something like that pulls. Is it a C19/C20, maybe? That's what my > DEC GIGAswitch uses. The connector on my 3645 is a twist-lok, L5-30 I think. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Jun 4 18:56:04 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 16:56:04 -0700 Subject: How do I get my money back? (from dishonest ebay seller) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007301c7a703$ea3daf00$6501a8c0@NFORCE4> Your only good option is to file the mail-fraud complaint. Since you used a postal money order you'll be in good shape there. You should also file the appropriate eBay complaints. She'll get an official letter from the Post Office and emails from eBay and can choose to react or ignore them. The Post Office and police won't do squat until the fraud is pretty big. Other than that it's small claims or Bubba. Good luck! Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 9000 VAX Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 2:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: How do I get my money back? (from dishonest ebay seller) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=260115466844 I sent her $50 post office money order, including some extras for better packaging. But she did not answer emails, and she did not send me anything. She cheated some 10+ other people in the same period of time. I know, she had negative feedback back in 2002 before these recent auctions. But her auctions did not look like fraud when I bid. I heard that it is classified as mail fraud. If I report to the mail office, at least they are going to send her a letter to threaten her. Does anybody here have such experience? How do I proceed? Help please. vax, 9000 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 4 19:19:37 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:19:37 -0400 Subject: 3174 Terminal Controller In-Reply-To: <940188.93363.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <940188.93363.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44301F50-CA57-4B51-A7D5-F242A4488FA0@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2007, at 5:30 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, this has been one of those ideas that has been > at the back of my mind for a long time - I would like > to interface one of these IBM terminals I have around > the house to something. Anything. I was thinking about > an emulated mainframe on Hercules or something. > > But the thing that brings this to the foreground in my > thoughts is that today I had to troubleshoot a > 3174-51R at a customer's site. This thing is > connected, via a rather unusual cable, to a Cisco 2500 > series router, so that means the 25 pin connector on > the back must be some form of X.25 or something like > that. I know that the fellow at corestore.org has been > able to get a real IBM terminal to telnet into an > emulated system via a terminal controller with built > in ethernet (although I have never seen one). > > Anyone done this before? What do I need to hunt for? I > now have one piece of the puzzle that I was never able > to find before - the manual for the 3174-51R. Now the > terminal controller's operation can be deciphered. > But, of course, I don't have the 3174. I'm working toward doing the same thing with my P/390. I have a 3174-61R with a token ring interface, but no Ethernet. The other thing I lack is the firmware disk for the 3290 plasma terminal, which is what I'm trying to get running. The 3174 downloads that into a 3290 when it (the 3290) powers up. Anyway, your -51R can take a token ring interface if you can find one. That might be easier than setting up a synchronous serial pipe to a Cisco. At least you could get an Ethernet switch that can bridge to token ring...I might wind up going that route since my main switch here is a Cisco Catalyst 5000, for which token ring cards are dirt cheap. What sort of IBM terminals do you have? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 4 19:24:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:24:07 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663BF19.7080004@gmail.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> <4663BF19.7080004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60293042-4B57-4E86-BB7C-093BADDD53B6@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2007, at 3:28 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products >> is twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking >> into account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related >> stuff. I wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been >> developed sooner? > > I don't have any experience from which to draw when trying to come > up with a number for the amount of S-100 product out there, but I > can say without hesitation that there is a metric buttload of STD- > bus stuff out there, but only in specific arenas. You can get an > STD-bus board (or boardset) to do pretty much anything you can > think of in industrial control/manufacturing robotics. It's a very > popular bus in that arena. Yes I've heard that, and it's no coincidence that the three or four STD-bus cards that I've seen in my life happened to be motor controllers. :-) I really like the form factor of those cards...I wish they were easier to come by; I'd love to build up a little STD-bus "hack machine" around a Z80 or 6809. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Jun 4 20:01:18 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:01:18 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4664B5DE.3060001@comcast.net> Here's the specs I used from my Imsai 8080 backplane. 22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062"(1/16") thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz copper(approx), plated thru holes, green solder mask top and bottom, white silkscreen top, Hot Air Solder Level, 15day lead time. I currently use a place called General Circuits Co.Ltd(China), www.pcbcart.com. They've been providing a good quality service. Imagineering is rather expensive if you ask me as most of them places can be. For quick prototype, I also use Barebonespcb.com The Imsai backplane is supported by a grid of standoff's at every other slot position along both edges on the steel chassis. This is how it retains it's strength when inserting many cards into the system. They didn't need to make it any thicker. The only time I had thicker backplane pcbs is for an industrial system, CPCI or VME systems, --which this isn't-- then it's wise to make a 1/8" or 3/16" backplane. At my last job,Lucent, our telecom backplanes were 1/2" thick. This is usually the result of a 8,10,12 layer or more pcb. It also offers a system which can withstand the rigors of an unpredictable environment. The Imsai, Altair, and the like are just home systems. The copper thickness is estimated but it has to be more than the standard 1oz since this has a high current capacity. I can recheck the cost projections for a thicker copper layer just in case. All the sockets have gold plated contacts and are very good quality. Good thing you mentioned the sockets. I was using a supplier which has a dwindling supply(JDR)--checked it recently-- I hate when that happens. They don't even have enough left over to make one backplane --uuggh-- and can't even bother to resupply. I had to source another supplier I use for other stuff (Sullins Electronics). They have plenty but they cost alittle more. To make it still reasonable, the batch order would have to be 25 pieces at least and then the connectors would be down to $15each.(I should double check the shipping again). The problem with dealing directly with the vendors is that the prices they quote can mysteriously fluctuate depending on the lifespan of a gnat circumnavigating a buffalo's butt. So a kit price would be way more expensive for a 22slot backplane But you can always buy a few connectors at a clip and worry about filling the backplane later. Hey do I get a commission, now that I gave you some more suppliers :) =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Grant Stockly wrote: > > Where do you get S-100 connectors for $5 or huge 1/8" PCBs for $35? I > use Imagineering for PCBs and I can't get $35 a piece for 1/8 FR4 > 11x13" (being conservative) unless I order 50 with a 3 week lead time. > > I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part > number digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts > are gold plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy > direct from the company they are $17-$20. : ) > > I've heard horror stories from Todd Fisher about cheap sockets... > > Grant > > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 20:10:06 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 18:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <1180996962.466495622094f@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <64604.41872.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I recently purchased some diagnostic circuit boards > and they are terrible, I am > seriously considering getting a rework station and > removing all the non lead > based solder and re soldering them with good old > fashioned lead based solder, > the soldier joints are horrible and there is some > odd contamination (perhaps > some different flux they have to use with it) that > comes to the surface when you > re solder the existing solder joints (black flecks) > I contacted the dealer i > got them from and they told me that was normal for > the lead-free solder that > they use now 0.o Hehe, yeah. That lead free solder is a load of crap. Neat idea, just too bad it doesn't actually work very well. The lead was in there for a reason... -Ian From bear at typewritten.org Mon Jun 4 20:52:24 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 18:52:24 -0700 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> References: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On Jun 4, 2007, at 12:12 PM, Keys wrote: > Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a > Symbolics model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, > and all the needed cables (power cord also). I opened the front > door and saw two hard drives mounted inside. Will also be looking > for manuals and some software. Anyone would information please > email me. The drives are probably MFM (Maxtor XT4190s were available) but could be ESDI depending on how your I/O processor is set up. There's nothing special about the power cord apart from the connector involved. My 3650 has a NEMA L21-30 twist-lock connector out the back like your 3640 does; its power cord terminates in a standard NEMA 5-15 plug just like every other piece of equipment in the world. It runs off a normal 15A household circuit just fine, even with a full complement of memory and an 8" SMD hard drive. I have spare 3640 boards once you get that far. Other spare parts are still available from what's left of Symbolics. Contact Dave Schmidt (sales at symbolics.com), but it might be spendy depending on what you need. ok bear From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jun 4 21:22:18 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:22:18 -0500 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday References: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <004101c7a718$5d8772c0$1b406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Parker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 6:07 PM Subject: Re: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday > > "Keys" wrote: >>Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a Symbolics >>model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all the needed >>cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two hard drives >>mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some software. Anyone >>would information please email me. > > I'm not sure abot power on a 3640. My 3630 has stock power cord. The > "refrigerator" 3600's are another matter - those are circular but you > can make an adapter easily. > > (if I remember right the 3640 is just an "L" machine - i.e. stock TTL; > the 3630 is a G machine, which has FPGA's) > > You're going to need a keyboard. And more important, a cable from the > monitor to the machine. > > If you are luck it will just boot. Does it have a cart tape drive? if > so, assume the roller is goo. I would not use it unless you replace the > rubber parts. > > I would get in touch with David Schmidt in VA. He can get a keyboard > for you and a monitor cable. > > -brad > The drive is missing just a open bay with a cable hanging there. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 21:24:24 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:24:24 -0400 Subject: How do I get my money back? (from dishonest ebay seller) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4664C958.6040207@gmail.com> 9000 VAX wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=260115466844 > I sent her $50 post office money order, including some extras for better > packaging. But she did not answer emails, and she did not send me anything. > She cheated some 10+ other people in the same period of time. I know, she > had negative feedback back in 2002 before these recent auctions. But her > auctions did not look like fraud when I bid. > > I heard that it is classified as mail fraud. If I report to the mail > office, > at least they are going to send her a letter to threaten her. Does anybody > here have such experience? How do I proceed? Help please. The last (and only) time I filed a complaint on a postal money order, they refunded it immediately and initiated fraud proceedings against the recipient. I don't know if that's standard practice or not, but it's at least a data point, FWIW. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 21:28:48 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:28:48 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <60293042-4B57-4E86-BB7C-093BADDD53B6@neurotica.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> <4663BF19.7080004@gmail.com> <60293042-4B57-4E86-BB7C-093BADDD53B6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4664CA60.7040705@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 4, 2007, at 3:28 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products is >>> twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking into >>> account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related stuff. I >>> wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been developed >>> sooner? >> >> I don't have any experience from which to draw when trying to come up >> with a number for the amount of S-100 product out there, but I can say >> without hesitation that there is a metric buttload of STD-bus stuff >> out there, but only in specific arenas. You can get an STD-bus board >> (or boardset) to do pretty much anything you can think of in >> industrial control/manufacturing robotics. It's a very popular bus in >> that arena. > > Yes I've heard that, and it's no coincidence that the three or four > STD-bus cards that I've seen in my life happened to be motor > controllers. :-) > > I really like the form factor of those cards...I wish they were easier > to come by; I'd love to build up a little STD-bus "hack machine" around > a Z80 or 6809. It would probably be easiest to build a "hack machine" around the 6502. There are a significant number of 6502-based CPU boards for talking to said motor controllers over the STD-bus. I've Z80-based ones too, but from what I've seen the 6502 ones are more common. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 21:30:15 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:30:15 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <64604.41872.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <64604.41872.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4664CAB7.3090308@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> I recently purchased some diagnostic circuit boards >> and they are terrible, I am >> seriously considering getting a rework station and >> removing all the non lead >> based solder and re soldering them with good old >> fashioned lead based solder, >> the soldier joints are horrible and there is some >> odd contamination (perhaps >> some different flux they have to use with it) that >> comes to the surface when you >> re solder the existing solder joints (black flecks) >> I contacted the dealer i >> got them from and they told me that was normal for >> the lead-free solder that >> they use now 0.o > > Hehe, yeah. That lead free solder is a load of crap. > Neat idea, just too bad it doesn't actually work very > well. The lead was in there for a reason... I think part of the problem is that the lead-free solders have practically different thermal characteristics, but a lot of places aren't taking that into account with their soldering-equipment budget. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 21:25:12 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:25:12 -0400 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4664C988.8000101@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Generally, you can avoid retalitory feedback by just not leaving feedback. The >> other way is to "snipe" the feedback at the 60 day limit of when you can leave >> feedback (or so I've been told.) > > Be careful. I've never had cuase to do this, so I am not sure, but I've > been told that if you know the auction number (for want of the better > term) yuo can leave feedback after the 60 day limit. So sniping may not > prevent retaliation. I believe the limit is actually 90 days, is it not? Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jun 4 22:28:49 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 20:28:49 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? References: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jun 4, 7 09:00:57 am, <46643CC3.13357.166BA465@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4664D860.4F92BF27@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 4 Jun 2007 at 23:37, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> Unless mine gets run over by a traction engine, I am unlikely to > need to > > replacve it. If an LED fails, I'll (as ever) jsut replace that LED. It's > > not exactly hard to fault-trace or repair... > > If I did more of RS-232 troubleshooting, I'd probably want one with a > pulse stretcher on at least SD and RD. At 115K, it's pretty hard to > notice a one-character blip. I don't know if any were made like > this, but it wouldn't be hard to cobble one up. The one I just received (a Navtel) has what appear (I haven't played with it yet) to be pulse catchers which can be patched to any pin. Presumably they latch on for a transition (there is a reset button). Which edge (+/-) they watch for will be the question. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 23:02:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:02:52 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <2444E735-A730-4F53-B63D-836ABF63AC4E@neurotica.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4663F990.21067.15651D4A@cclist.sydex.com>, <2444E735-A730-4F53-B63D-836ABF63AC4E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46647DFC.12087.176A683B@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 19:48, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh that sounds cool. :) Wood was very "in" for prototyping back then. :) Looked even funkier if you plastered wood-grain vinyl shelf paper over it. Anyone remember the Atari Race Car game at Andy Capp's around 1976? IIRC wasn't it just brown-stained plywood? Cheers, Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jun 4 23:06:56 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:06:56 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... Message-ID: <200706042106.57029.lbickley@bickleywest.com> A number of you probably remember me "announcing" in Jan, 2007 that I had rescued a MODCOMP II/12 from a lab here in Silicon Valley. The link for that is below (sorry, it's slow - the pictures are large). http://bickleywest.com/modcomp.htm After a lot of work cleaning up both the CPU and I/O chassis I began checking out the system. It turned out that the I/O chassis was in pretty bad shape. I went back to the lab facility where I found the MODCOMP II - looked through several more buildings - and found another lone MODCOMP II I/O chassis. I went through the "salvage" process again - and finally picked it up about a month ago. It was in a lot better shape than the original I/O unit. And the really great news - it was an identical configuration to my original I/O chassis. After cleaning it up, doing all the usual capacitor, power supply checking - I powered it up - and everything "looked" good - and no bad "cooking" smells ;-) I cabled up the CPU and I/O unit, powered 'em up - and to my amazement the front panel controls seemed to work O.K. I then did the usual hand memory tests - and core memory worked O.K. every location I tested. I then wrote a bunch of small diagnostics (in machine code) - and found that I/O was not easy to code - but I did enough to check that the console in/out ports worked O.K. Today I loaded diagnostic monitors, and diags - and most of the system - including I/O is working! The really good news is that all 64K (words) of core memory passed the long manufacturing memory diagnostic - which even tests for "hot cores" failing. It's been months in the making this critter come alive - but it sure feels great when the diagnostics tell you that you are on the right track :-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From grant at stockly.com Mon Jun 4 23:15:46 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 20:15:46 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4664B5DE.3060001@comcast.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> At 05:01 PM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >Here's the specs I used from my Imsai 8080 backplane. >22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062"(1/16") thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz >copper(approx), plated thru holes, green solder mask top and bottom, white >silkscreen top, Hot Air Solder Level, 15day lead time. >I currently use a place called General Circuits Co.Ltd(China), >www.pcbcart.com. They've been providing a good quality service. >Imagineering is rather expensive if you ask me as most of them places can >be. For quick prototype, I also use Barebonespcb.com That makes sense... 14 day lead, 8.5x17, 2 layer, 2oz, plated, green, white-top... Imagineering wants $37.41 So they can't be TOO expensive. ; ) Barebonespcb is Advanced Circuits. They are pretty expensive on everything but the "bare bones" boards. I use them for prototypes too. If you want high volume large "bare bones" PCBs, NO ONE (that I've found) so far can beat PCBExpress. I used them to make 20 14x12" PCBs for my 19,008 LED bitmap display. I think the bill was $340. :D They are kind of strange about drill sizes... You have to choose from around 15 sizes. I like the "look" of the boards that Imagineering produces, so I stick with them. Don't forget that once I make the CPU and RAM card with a given finish I have to finish off the kit with the same finish! They have a nice green gloss... It would look funny to have differing looks. So I guess I am stuck. : ) I have finished the 2SIO, PMC, SIOB, MODEM, and 4MCS boards. It sure is a pretty set! Now I need to start selling these things so I can afford to make new toys. >So a kit price would be way more expensive for a 22slot backplane >But you can always buy a few connectors at a clip and worry about filling >the backplane later. > >Hey do I get a commission, now that I gave you some more suppliers :) I use Sullins! : ) I found I get just as good pricing through DigiKey and with a shorter lead time than going direct to sullins. What row spacing does the IMSAI board use on the S-100 connectors? is it .100"? I remember something about two different row spacings. I was forced to buy the ones that match the old motherboards because I couldn't just design something new... Oh, you want a percentage of the profits? Then write *me* a check! ; ) Grant From evan at snarc.net Mon Jun 4 23:47:39 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 00:47:39 -0400 Subject: General Announcement: Vintage Computer Festival East 4.0, this weekend! Message-ID: <000c01c7a72c$a57c87f0$6401a8c0@evan> For immediate release: MARCH, VintageTech, and the InfoAge Science Center announce the Vintage Computer Festival East 4.0 * What: A celebration of computers, technology, and culture from the 1940s - 1980s. Open to the public * When: June 9-10. Lectures from 10am-2pm, exhibits from 2pm-6pm both days * Where: InfoAge Science Center, 2201 Marconi Rd., Wall Township, N.J., 07719 * Cost: $10 for one day, $15 for two days, free for 12 and younger, free parking * Contact: Evan Koblentz, evank at midatlanticretro.org, 646-546-9999 ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -------- Do 8 bits excite you more than 64? Prefer blinkenlights over SVGA? Yearn for the days of input via toggle switches and paper tape? Or just want to play some Pac-Man? Then check out the Vintage Computer Festival East 4.0, June 9-10, at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey. This year's event is again hosted by MARCH -- the Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists. The Vintage Computer Festival began in 1997 in Silicon Valley, migrated eastward in 2001, and became a MARCH event in 2006. So what is a VCF? Imagine an antique car show where every owner let you test-drive his car, and where Henry Ford gave a lecture and signed autographs! It sounds unreal, but that's what happens with vintage computer technology at every edition of the VCF. This year's edition of the VCF East will feature 20 exhibits of computer technology from the 1940s to 1980s. Visitors will have the opportunity to use an IBM punch-card machine, witness a legendary Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-8 minicomputer in action, and experience all the top brands of 1970s microcomputers from companies like Apple, Commodore, and many others. Older S-100 kit computers, single-board computers, portables, and even analog and prehistoric computer technology will be demonstrated. On the extremes, we have one exhibitor preparing to show an authentic NASA Apollo flight computer, and another who'll display the most classic videogame console ever -- Atari -- play it 'til you drop! Read the full exhibitor list at http://www.vintage.org/2007/east/exhibit.php. If that's not enough, then listen to some of our guest speakers. The highlight this year will be a 30th anniversary panel in honor of Commodore, which was headquartered nearby in West Chester, Pennsylvania. The panel's star is Chuck Peddle, inventor of the famous MOS Technology 6502 chip, used in a wide variety of classic single-board computers and in microcomputers such as the Commodore PET and the Apple II. Peddle will join us via live videoconference, in which he promises to share previously untold stories, after which he'll answer audience questions. Commodore engineers appearing live at our show will include Bil Herd, Bob Russell, and Dave Haynie. We'll even have a birthday cake featuring the famous Commodore "Chickenhead" logo. Other speakers this year include Herb "Dr. S-100" Johnson, who'll explain the history of the CP/M operating system; Bill Degnan and Sellam Ismail; who together will give a crash-course in vintage computer discovery and restoration; and others to be announced. In addition, Ismail will give a second talk, but the topic is secret! You'll have to be there to find out what he plans. Yet another highlight of the VCF East 4.0 will be our new VCF Theatre, organized by acclaimed technology filmmaker Jason Scott. His films include "BBS: The Documentary" and the upcoming "Get Lamp" about text-adventure games. At the VCF Theatre, he'll be screening vintage computer-themed movies all weekend long in the afternoons. New this year is the donate-to-sell booth. Here, everyone is welcome to donate vintage computing items, with all proceeds to help MARCH build its computer museum. Our museum directly benefits future generations, so do your part and give something to this wonderful non-profit cause! (We request that any unsold items be re-claimed before you leave the VCF.) Did we mention the prizes? We'll have t-shirts, vintage computer replica kits, books, and maybe a surprise or two. All you have to do to win is show up, and be there when we announce winners each day. Finally, should your historic technology interest extend beyond just computers, then you've come to the right place. Our venue at the InfoAge Science Center is historic in itself. The facility began life in 1912 as an R&D center for Britain's Marconi Wireless Telegraph Co., and then spent several decades as Camp Evans, a top-secret laboratory of the U.S. military. RADAR that first spotted airplanes over Pearl Harbor and mankind's first radio signal to the moon were invented here, along with numerous other achievements. Today, the center is on the National Register of Historic Places and is a Black History Site. It's also home to the National Broadcasters Hall of Fame and an assortment of non-profit clubs all related to the history of technology, with a local focus. Driving directions, lodging information, exhibit details and more are posted at www.vintage.org/2007/east/. * For more information about MARCH, visit www.midatlanticretro.org * For more information about the InfoAge Science Center, visit www.infoage.org * For more information about VintageTech, visit www.vintagetech.com General questions? Want to exhibit or have a vendor booth at the VCF East? Member of the media? Contact VCF East producer and MARCH president Evan Koblentz, evank at midatlanticretro.org, 646-546-9999. From marvin at west.net Tue Jun 5 00:01:40 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:01:40 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <4664EE34.CD596C63@west.net> I also use PCBExpress for the small boards I make (transmitters and offset attenuators for transmitter hunting), and they are quick and inexpensive. I'm told by a friend of mine that a place in (I think) Bulgeria makes good quality boards at a better price (and are ROHS compliant) but I haven't tried them. Sidelight - The guy who started PCBExpress lives in Santa Barbara and used to work for Polymorphic Systems. One of the things *I* am interested in is finding out is if a "MicroAltair" was ever made by Polymorphic or if it was a preliminary announcement that got quashed by MITS. That was why the reason for the conversation I had with him (still don't know, but got another lead to find out.) Marvin, KE6HTS > but the "bare bones" boards. I use them for prototypes too. If you want > high volume large "bare bones" PCBs, NO ONE (that I've found) so far can > beat PCBExpress. I used them to make 20 14x12" PCBs for my 19,008 LED > bitmap display. I think the bill was $340. :D They are kind of strange > about drill sizes... You have to choose from around 15 sizes. > > Grant From grant at stockly.com Tue Jun 5 02:47:56 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 23:47:56 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4664EE34.CD596C63@west.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604234151.0368cde0@pop.1and1.com> >I also use PCBExpress for the small boards I make (transmitters and offset >attenuators for transmitter hunting), and they are quick and inexpensive. I'm >told by a friend of mine that a place in (I think) Bulgeria makes good quality >boards at a better price (and are ROHS compliant) but I haven't tried them. > >Sidelight - The guy who started PCBExpress lives in Santa Barbara and used to >work for Polymorphic Systems. One of the things *I* am interested in is >finding >out is if a "MicroAltair" was ever made by Polymorphic or if it was a >preliminary announcement that got quashed by MITS. That was why the reason for >the conversation I had with him (still don't know, but got another lead to >find >out.) Check out Advanced Circuits www.4pcb.com http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=130 3 for $33. with a 60 square inch limit 5 day lead, but cheaper than PCB Express for small runs and they will drill hole sizes exactly. : ) Or Imagineering http://www.pcbnet.com/adspec107.asp You have to register to see pricing. Cheapest is 10 boards of 20 square inches for $13ea, 5 day lead on all. 11 - 20 sqin. $13ea. 21 - 40 sqin. $15ea. 41 - 60 sqin. $20ea. 61 - 80 sqin. $25ea. Anything above that and production pricing is cheaper. From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jun 5 02:54:57 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 00:54:57 -0700 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <4664E950.5070708@msu.edu> References: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4664E950.5070708@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Jun 4, 2007, at 9:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > If anyone knows different or has a copy of software that will do > this, I'd love to get a copy -- I'm out of space on my 3630 and I > have several compatible ESDI drives, but no means to make them > usable to the machine. Almost ready to send them out to Dave, but > not quite yet :). Josh; The special software is only for bringing up Genera from the FEP (bare metal); it's called the Breath Of Life tape. Once you have LISP running, Genera includes all the tools you need to initialize another disk and bring it up. In fact you can bypass the need for a BOL tape entirely, if you have access to a second system. I used to have the procedure, but by now it'll take me a while to find it again. ok bear From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 5 02:51:41 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 08:51:41 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Jun 2007 23:37:33 BST." Message-ID: <200706050751.IAA20520@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > > > Hi, > > > > Tony Duell said: > > > > [RE RS232 tester] > > > > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > > > fine ever since. > > > > http://www.cpc.co.uk item number CS11237 4.88+VAT > > And +postage presumably. From what I remmber (from needing some drvie > belts for a cassette recorder), CPC has a fairly high handling charge on > small orders. > I have an account with them, and I'm usually ordering enough stuff p&p is free so I tend to forget about that aspect. Just got a very nice CTX 19-inch crt monitor from them - they were selling the last of them off for 55 quid + VAT. Getting hard to get new CRT monitors now and the cheap LCD ones are rubbish! We'll soon be reduced to scouring eBay for real monitors :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jun 5 05:48:28 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 06:48:28 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46653F7C.8030909@comcast.net> The PCBCart actual cost after shipping is $28 I have to make some beer money, my day job pays the bills :) Sullins does have 2 options for the pin spacing, The Imsai has 0.250" spacing. I'm sure that's the same as the other machines(haven't looked inside my SOL). The connectors do get alot cheaper at qty.50, then it's only $9ea I'm always looking for more suppliers. =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Grant Stockly wrote: > > That makes sense... 14 day lead, 8.5x17, 2 layer, 2oz, plated, green, > white-top... Imagineering wants $37.41 So they can't be TOO > expensive. ; ) > > > I use Sullins! : ) I found I get just as good pricing through > DigiKey and with a shorter lead time than going direct to sullins. > What row spacing does the IMSAI board use on the S-100 connectors? is > it .100"? I remember something about two different row spacings. > From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jun 5 06:01:22 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 07:01:22 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604234151.0368cde0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604234151.0368cde0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46654282.8000909@comcast.net> PCBExpress has some good prices for the barebones I'll have to put that at the top of my list. But not for pcb's with all the options. I always like the LED display projects--have fun soldering :) I came up with another style for a LED display. It still has Leds but not in plain sight. I call it the Pixelator, you'll see when I get ti done. I noticed that PCBExpress has a link to a PCB Assy house. - Screaming Circuits They look interesting too, but I havn't checked any quotes with them yet. As far as having the same finish. There's nothing stopping you from starting a new batch. I would suggest making a panel to cut costs(tooling and pcb), example 4x S-100 pcbs. They always want the goldfingers on the outside edge. I haven't seen any good prices from Advance Circuits that can compare. BTW, that link says $33 *each*, min qty 3 required They try to suck you in with all the free-for-first time customer promotions too. PCBCart still has a better price(even after shipping) with all the options Here's a comparison ..............Imagineering.......PCBCart 10piece 20 sq.in. 5 day lead 8 day lead(same diff) 11 - 20 sqin. $13ea. $6ea 21 - 40 sqin. $15ea. $9ea 41 - 60 sqin. $20ea. $11ea 61 - 80 sqin. $25ea. $14ea ($18ea after DHL shipping) =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Grant Stockly wrote: > > Check out Advanced Circuits www.4pcb.com > > http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=130 > > 3 for $33. with a 60 square inch limit 5 day lead, but cheaper than > PCB Express for small runs and they will drill hole sizes exactly. : ) > > Or Imagineering > > http://www.pcbnet.com/adspec107.asp You have to register to see pricing. > > Cheapest is 10 boards of 20 square inches for $13ea, 5 day lead on all. > > 11 - 20 sqin. $13ea. > 21 - 40 sqin. $15ea. > 41 - 60 sqin. $20ea. > 61 - 80 sqin. $25ea. > > Anything above that and production pricing is cheaper. > From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 5 11:20:28 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:20:28 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <4662E1B0.29790.111FDDFD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> <4662E1B0.29790.111FDDFD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706051220.28607.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 June 2007 18:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jun 2007 at 21:56, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'll go along with that. I have one, and I use it a lot more than my > > fancier RS232 test gear (like a Tekky datavoms terst). It's so easy just > > to plug in the LED tester and see (as you said) which pin the thing is > > transmitting on, which handshake lines is seems to be driving, and so on. > > > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > > fine ever since. > > Add to that the little RS-232 "patch boxes"--one male, one female DB- > 25 and a PCB in between with pads for each conductor and a hood that > covers the whole works. I have several pre-wired and labeled with > things like "null modem" "crossover", etc. I even have one labeled > "Laplink parallel". Get enough of these and all you need are > straight-through cables--and maybe a gender changer or two. No > fooling around looking at a cable and saying "I wonder what this is > for..." Yeah, I have a few double-ended adapters with the connections labeled on them, but one of these days would like to get my hands on one that you can patch with jumpers. I've seen those jumpers for 0.025" square posts in catalogs, but have yet to get my hands on any of them, or a suitable adapter to use 'em with. Not that I'm doing all that much with rs232 stuff these days anyway... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From grant at stockly.com Tue Jun 5 11:40:26 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 08:40:26 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46653F7C.8030909@comcast.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070605083859.03271a50@pop.1and1.com> At 02:48 AM 6/5/2007, you wrote: >The PCBCart actual cost after shipping is $28 >I have to make some beer money, my day job pays the bills :) Your chinese guys can do good I guess... >Sullins does have 2 options for the pin spacing, The Imsai has 0.250" >spacing. I'm sure that's the same as the other machines(haven't looked >inside my SOL). > >The connectors do get alot cheaper at qty.50, then it's only $9ea >I'm always looking for more suppliers. I'll have to get them to requote my connectors. The Altair uses a .125 row spacing.. That might be why mine are more expensive. From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 5 13:39:42 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 19:39:42 +0100 Subject: TESTFDC usage Message-ID: <003501c7a7a0$e313cc80$5b01a8c0@uatempname> I've been checking through the stuff I have around here and I've decided that I have a few surplus PC mobos that I'll be getting rid of (via a certain auction site). Before I do I thought I'd try them out with TESTFDC and see what it says. I have three 5.25" drives (of currently unknown functionality) which I could use. One is a DEC RX33, one is a Tandon TM75-8 and the last one is a Sankyo (or that might just be the motor manufacturer :-)). I also have whatever is sitting in my main machine, but I'm not keen to drag that out just foir fun! I also have a few 1.44MB 3.5" drives, but they've not been used in quite some time, so heaven knows what state they are in. So what do I need to do to extract the maximum useful information about these motherboards (aside, that is, from checking that they are not already on the list :-))? And exactly what media will I need? Should I test both 3.5" and 5.25" (I've not tried the 300/360 mod yet; I may do in the future, but for now I'd just like to get some testing done)? Anything to watch out for? Any particular version of DOS recommended (I have 6.2? kicking around, would FreeDOS do if that is easier to find)? Thanks Antonio From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 5 14:06:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 13:06:16 -0600 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46654282.8000909@comcast.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604234151.0368cde0@pop.1and1.com> <46654282.8000909@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4665B428.3080604@jetnet.ab.ca> Dan wrote: > > PCBExpress has some good prices for the barebones > I'll have to put that at the top of my list. > But not for pcb's with all the options. The PCB's are no problem where you source them. How ever what about the BOX to put the mother boards in. That is problem for me any how. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jun 4 03:31:15 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 09:31:15 +0100 Subject: S-100 Systems Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F97@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Having read all the correspondence on S-100 systems there are three possibilities. 1. Restoration 2. Reproduction or Replica 3. Reinvention Restoration In a restoration you are trying to get the system back to what it was when first made. So when possible you would use components made at the same time the system was. Can be done and is done. Does need a knowledge of older electronics and good parts sources. Reproduction or Replica Here you are attempting to make a system as close to the original design as possible but using recently manufactured versions of the original components. Where do you draw the line? Well FWIW my take on this is if it fits in the original holes and performs the same function or is the same value then the fact that it may not look exactly the same as the original is OK. Makes a nice kit project. My preference would be a Northstar Horizon. (wood effect box and all) As far as I know nobody owns the rights and the company was not sold it just folded up. Reinvention Say a copy of old S-100 system on the outside only That means the box and front panel are new but as the original. Inside,there are new electronics simulating the old system. Good route for the run the old software fans. Rod Smallwood From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jun 4 03:43:45 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 09:43:45 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F98@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi And now something for all you Decsperts to get your teeth into. My VAX4000-300 is failing the self test. After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test C5. Does anybody know what test C5 tests. If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a problem. Rod Smallwood From mmcarmo at adelphia.net Mon Jun 4 16:16:41 2007 From: mmcarmo at adelphia.net (Mary) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 17:16:41 -0400 Subject: B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner Message-ID: <000501c7a6ed$a5940630$0300a8c0@Kara> Hi John, I just purchased a B&C Microsystems 1409 Programmer. Do you have the manual? If so, I'd appreciate a copy. Sincerely, David From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 4 17:41:36 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 18:41:36 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ400CEUV00EHEQ@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:38:18 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Grant Stockly wrote: >> >> > Someone built one of my Altair replica PCBs and went to great lengths to >> > make sure the date code on the ICs was older than 1975. They also >> > sourced the old brown cylindrical resistors. > >I've been known to do that, but for much more trivial examples - when >I built my 1976-design Elf, I did the best I could on chips (my CPU >and memory were of the period, but I have not yet tracked down a 74L00 >for the clock divider circuit), but I was happy to have a bin of ;) L00? I bet I have a few that are pre ELF. >vintage brown cylindrical resistors for the pullups. I had to >compromise on the regulator - the oldest one I could find in my junk >bin was an LM340T. I have a shopping bag of those resistor, really! the LM340 was period and valid but, I have 7805s that are date coded 7951 (last week of '79). Somewhere I came across a few baggies of them as they are handy. I also have 1uS 2102s, 5101 and other old ram. >Obviously, the computer doesn't care, but I wanted something that >would have looked as if I had made it when I first got into computers >as a kid. A complete indulgence to nostalgia. :) they dont care. I tend to build new hardware using that old stuff as I've had it for that reason, that is to build with. > >-ethan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jun 4 20:32:54 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 02:32:54 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F9D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I probably failed to make my self clear. 1. Yes MOP is part of a whole heap of programs that go to make up DECNET 2. MOP stands for Maintenance Operations Protocol and that what is was for. 3 It pre dates DECnet (Well at lest internally in DEC) 4. It can be run on its own. 5. It's a much lower level system than LAT or LAVC that run at the application (top) level of the OSI Model 6. It runs at the network level (Layer 3) in the seven layer OSI model 7. Of course there is a physical network and enough of a driver in the firmware in the target VAX to exchange frames with the MOP running in the boot server. (I found a list of them) So in that sense it is running a subset of Decnet. However let's not confuse a low level maintenance tool with all the good stuff the full version of Decnet gives you. 8. Its twenty-five years since I was a product manager in DEC SWS. No wonder I'm a bit hazy on this stuff! Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: 04 June 2007 14:14 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Repairing the damage. At 04:23 PM 6/3/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >Your server (the VAX 4000-200) does have to be running DECnet. Er no it >doesn't and isn't. I attended a 1976 DEC engineering meeting where this >was discussed. It just my personal memory has a long access time. >Download and run was around long before Decnet was thought of. I'm not sure why I'm responding to this troll, but I can't resist. The server must be running a MOP listener. That's the protocol that the client uses when you boot the ethernet device. MOP is a DECnet protocol. For many versions of VMS, the way you get a MOP listener is to install DECnet. For VMS 7.0 and later, there's a separate MOP listener that provides just that part of DECnet. >There's no Decnet or any other normal network involved. Crap. You MUST have a network to run a Local Area VAXcluster. You know, a *Local Area Network*? LAVC booting uses DECnet to boot. You can't make any of this work without a LAN, without DECnet. I suppose you'll keep flailing around hoping that something will work, blaming others for your mistakes. Enjoy yourself. >I am also >beginning to suspect that the whole cluster thing is another GRH (Giant >Red Herring) Huh? Nope, if you followed the very detailed directions you've been given, you could diskless boot the server. You could then try to get a disk set up and booted. Not a red herring at all. >Whats actually happening is an old diagnostic tool is being used to >download and run a program on a remote system to exclude the disk >drives from the test. LANCP is not an "old diagnostic tool" it's actually fairly recent. Using CLUSTER_CONFIG as you're supposed to will use it to set up the client download. Did you try that? Probably not. -Rick From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jun 4 20:44:25 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 02:44:25 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F9E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I would be interested if the shipping cost to the UK is not too much. A single 12 slot board with connectors but no metal work or card guides would Be as stripped down as you could go. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith Sent: 04 June 2007 07:41 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available On Mon, 4 Jun 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >On top of that, S100 motherboards are still fairly easy to find. If > anyone's >interested, I'll have some ready for sale in a couple weeks. > > And how much will they cost ? > Populated? > Whats included? > How many slots? I'm not sure how much they'll cost. Most of them are 12-slot boards, mostly Morrow Wunderbuss models of one sort or another. There's a big CompuPro chassis with 20-slot board and power supply. I also have a bunch of assorted cards. With summer approaching, I'll likely have more time to sell off this stuff. Oh, and those of you who wanted those 8-inch drives, I still have your names. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Jun 4 23:40:48 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:40:48 -0700 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4664E950.5070708@msu.edu> One other thing to note: As far as I know (and please, please correct me if I'm wrong -- I'd love to be wrong in this case :)) if you find yourself in the unfortunate situation of having wiped/unbootable drives in your 3640, your only real option to get Genera reloaded on the drives is to send them out to Dave Schmidt and have him do the install for you. (It cost me $300 for a Genera license for my 3630 and to have it installed on the drive I sent to him.) To the best of my knowledge the software necessary to format the drive and write out the bad block map, etc, is still Symbolics-proprietary and has not been released publicly. (I believe Dave referred to this as the "Chatsworth" Genera distribution when I asked.) If anyone knows different or has a copy of software that will do this, I'd love to get a copy -- I'm out of space on my 3630 and I have several compatible ESDI drives, but no means to make them usable to the machine. Almost ready to send them out to Dave, but not quite yet :). - Josh Brad Parker wrote: > "Keys" wrote: > >> Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a Symbolics >> model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all the needed >> cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two hard drives >> mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some software. Anyone >> would information please email me. >> > > I'm not sure abot power on a 3640. My 3630 has stock power cord. The > "refrigerator" 3600's are another matter - those are circular but you > can make an adapter easily. > > (if I remember right the 3640 is just an "L" machine - i.e. stock TTL; > the 3630 is a G machine, which has FPGA's) > > You're going to need a keyboard. And more important, a cable from the > monitor to the machine. > > If you are luck it will just boot. Does it have a cart tape drive? if > so, assume the roller is goo. I would not use it unless you replace the > rubber parts. > > I would get in touch with David Schmidt in VA. He can get a keyboard > for you and a monitor cable. > > -brad > > > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 5 01:37:02 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 07:37:02 +0100 Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Well done that guy!! What you have done is both the spirit and the essence of classic computing. You are to be congratulated on both effort and persistence. "A shining light to lead others into the darkness of old computer restoration" I was at DEC (UK) in the 70's and Modcomp would pop up as competition from time to time. Hasn't that front panel got DEC overtones? Is there a keyboard terminal or screen with it? Rod Smallwood DecCollector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley Sent: 05 June 2007 05:07 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... A number of you probably remember me "announcing" in Jan, 2007 that I had rescued a MODCOMP II/12 from a lab here in Silicon Valley. The link for that is below (sorry, it's slow - the pictures are large). http://bickleywest.com/modcomp.htm After a lot of work cleaning up both the CPU and I/O chassis I began checking out the system. It turned out that the I/O chassis was in pretty bad shape. I went back to the lab facility where I found the MODCOMP II - looked through several more buildings - and found another lone MODCOMP II I/O chassis. I went through the "salvage" process again - and finally picked it up about a month ago. It was in a lot better shape than the original I/O unit. And the really great news - it was an identical configuration to my original I/O chassis. After cleaning it up, doing all the usual capacitor, power supply checking - I powered it up - and everything "looked" good - and no bad "cooking" smells ;-) I cabled up the CPU and I/O unit, powered 'em up - and to my amazement the front panel controls seemed to work O.K. I then did the usual hand memory tests - and core memory worked O.K. every location I tested. I then wrote a bunch of small diagnostics (in machine code) - and found that I/O was not easy to code - but I did enough to check that the console in/out ports worked O.K. Today I loaded diagnostic monitors, and diags - and most of the system - including I/O is working! The really good news is that all 64K (words) of core memory passed the long manufacturing memory diagnostic - which even tests for "hot cores" failing. It's been months in the making this critter come alive - but it sure feels great when the diagnostics tell you that you are on the right track :-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Jun 5 11:42:12 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 09:42:12 -0700 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: References: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4664E950.5070708@msu.edu> Message-ID: <46659264.4070101@msu.edu> I'd definitely be interested to know the procedure. I've initialized and duplicated disks several times with SCSI disks on my XL1201, but I've had no luck with ESDI drives on my 3630. The "Disk Format" FEP command on the 3600 seems only to format the disk -- it does not create a bad block map; attempting to create a FEP Filesystem on the disk fails afterwards. If you can dig up the procedure when you have the time, I'd appreciate it :). Thanks, Josh r.stricklin wrote: > > On Jun 4, 2007, at 9:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> If anyone knows different or has a copy of software that will do >> this, I'd love to get a copy -- I'm out of space on my 3630 and I >> have several compatible ESDI drives, but no means to make them usable >> to the machine. Almost ready to send them out to Dave, but not quite >> yet :). > > Josh; > > The special software is only for bringing up Genera from the FEP (bare > metal); it's called the Breath Of Life tape. Once you have LISP > running, Genera includes all the tools you need to initialize another > disk and bring it up. In fact you can bypass the need for a BOL tape > entirely, if you have access to a second system. > > I used to have the procedure, but by now it'll take me a while to find > it again. > > ok > bear > > From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 5 16:54:16 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 22:54:16 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F98@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004c01c7a7bc$11508b90$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test > C5. > > Does anybody know what test C5 tests. > If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a > problem. When I had a KZQSA in a VAX 4000-500 I found that it would fail self-test if either port was left unterminated. I would not be surprised if an unterminated DSSI port had the same effect. Does it still boot if you make it boot manually (i.e. is the error fatal or does it just interfere with automatic booting?) Antonio From go at ao.com Tue Jun 5 18:08:25 2007 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:08:25 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4665ECE9.4030601@ao.com> Does anyone need the schematics for a TEC 2402? A friend of mine long ago disposed of his old TEC 2402, but recently found his Reference Drawings (965025-001) for the beast. Knowing that I 'collect' (accrete more like) old computer stuff, he gave the prints to me. If anyone is interested, I can snail them out. The print set is about 18 inches by 12 inches by .300 inches. It's basically a bound stack of blue prints about 3/8 inch thick. Dates from 1974/75. Perhaps it should pass though Al's hands before it goes to its final resting place... For reference, this is TEC Incorporated of 2727 North Fairview Ave., Tuscon Arizona. -Gary Rick Bensene wrote: > I have an old glass TTY-type terminal made by a company called TEC. > It consists of two parts. The first part contains the main logic, all > on a board mounted in the back of the chassis), the video electronics, > power supply, and high-voltage power supply, along with monitor. The > second part is a rather clunky keyboard that attaches to the first part > with a connector cable. > > The cabinets are painted almost an IBM-style blue. I don't know the > model number off the top of my head, but was wondering if anyone out > there knows anything about the history of these terminals. The thing > gives off vibes of being from the mid to late 1970's. The logic IIRC is > mostly TTL. Don't know what it uses for memory, but whatever it is, > it's got to be solid state, either shift registers, or RAM. > > The thing powers up, and shows a display with some "large" and "small" > characters (it appears to have two different font sizes), and a blinking > cursor which appears in multiple places on the screen, but doesn't > respond to any keyboard input. It has a DB-25 RS-232 connector > apparently for hooking up to a computer, but I don't know if it's wired > as DTE or DCE. There are also a bunch of dip switches on the logic > circuit board, which I assume are for setting up things like baud rate, > stop bits, number of bits, > Duplex, along with other options. There is also another DB-25 connector > on the back that appears as if it might be a "pass through" for > connecting a serial printer or something like that. > > The terminal is packed away right now, but some of the recent talk about > the old Hazeltine terminals made me think of it. If there's interest, I > can dig it out and take some photos and put them up on a website for > viewing if that might help. Of course, once I dig it out, I can > probably ID the model number, then do a web search to see if I can find > anything out there, but figured I'd ask here first to see if anyone has > any information on the company or their terminals. > > Thanks in advance. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Web Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > From dave at mitton.com Tue Jun 5 18:30:11 2007 From: dave at mitton.com (dave at mitton.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 23:30:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DECnet and MOP Message-ID: <4970113.1181086211496.JavaMail.?@fh1037.dia.cp.net> >Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 02:32:54 +0100 >From: "Rod Smallwood" > Subject: RE: Repairing the damage. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > ... >I probably failed to make my self clear. > > 1. Yes MOP is part of a whole heap of programs that go to > make up DECNET > > 2. MOP stands for Maintenance Operations Protocol and that > what is was for. > > 3 It pre dates DECnet (Well at lest internally in DEC) MOP is part of the DECnet architecture set, and like DECnet has gone through a number of versions, and releases. It actually underwent a boom in the later years, as Ethernet got cheap and diskless network devices became attractive. It is a simple lower level datagram protocol, and does not need the normal session stack to run. In smarter network devices, a MOP bootstrap can be in the device ROM. All that said; architecture, implementation, and deployment vary with platforms and time. For those that grew up on TCP/IP only (and thus doomed to repeat the past), it is best to think of MOP as the DECnet analog of BOOTP, with a little bit of DHCP and ARP sprinkled in. ... > 8. Its twenty-five years since I was a product manager in > DEC SWS. No wonder I'm a bit hazy on this stuff! > > Regards > Rod Smallwood There's your problem. I was a software engineer for DECnet-RSX, DECnet-PRO, DECnet-DOS, and PATHWorks. I was also the architect of the DAP Protocol v6 and a DECnet Token Ring Datalink. The later included MOP specfications too. I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. Dave. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jun 5 19:26:11 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 17:26:11 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706051726.11546.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hi Rod, On Monday 04 June 2007 23:37, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > Well done that guy!! > > What you have done is both the spirit and the essence of classic > computing. > You are to be congratulated on both effort and persistence. Thanks. Lots of work - but mostly fun :-) > "A shining light to lead others into the darkness of old computer > restoration" Blush... I do my best - I'm on both the PDP-1 and IBM 1620 Restoration Teams at the Computer History Museum... > I was at DEC (UK) in the 70's and Modcomp would pop up as competition > from time to time. > > Hasn't that front panel got DEC overtones? A bit - but so do most Minicomputers in the mid-70's ;-) It's different from most DEC minicomputers in that you can access not only the systems 15 general purpose registers, PC, etc. but also about 40 other internal registers and status conditions. You can also modify most of them from the front panel! (BTW: It has a "protect" switch to keep the wrong folks from doing nasty things when in operation - and also internal protection mechanisms, etc.) It's different enough that when I move from my 8/E, 11/34C or 11/83 to the MODCOMP - it takes me a while to get "used to" the MODCOMP. MODCOMP also interprets all operations and logic in HEX as opposed to OCTAL. > Is there a keyboard terminal or screen with it? It has a RS-232 async port for a console terminal. Other I/O is: Two additional async ports, one high speed serial link for networking (200KHz) and a paper tape reader port. There also a "plane" that was built by the customer that I'm still trying to find docs for in the customers "archives" with lots of other I/O. BTW: One can attach disks to async ports, too :-) Interestingly, you can boot from any readable device on the system with the same boot loader - including async ports! the boot loader is very gnarly - only 8 instructions long - and it took me hours to figure out how it works (hint: it uses self modifying code to load a secondary boot which then loads the program you are booting). Cheers, Lyle > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley > Sent: 05 June 2007 05:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... > > A number of you probably remember me "announcing" in Jan, 2007 that I > had rescued a MODCOMP II/12 from a lab here in Silicon Valley. The link > for that is below (sorry, it's slow - the pictures are large). > > http://bickleywest.com/modcomp.htm > > After a lot of work cleaning up both the CPU and I/O chassis I began > checking out the system. It turned out that the I/O chassis was in > pretty bad shape. > > I went back to the lab facility where I found the MODCOMP II - looked > through several more buildings - and found another lone MODCOMP II I/O > chassis. I went through the "salvage" process again - and finally picked > it up about a month ago. > > It was in a lot better shape than the original I/O unit. And the really > great news - it was an identical configuration to my original I/O > chassis. > > After cleaning it up, doing all the usual capacitor, power supply > checking - I powered it up - and everything "looked" good - and no bad > "cooking" > smells ;-) > > I cabled up the CPU and I/O unit, powered 'em up - and to my amazement > the front panel controls seemed to work O.K. > > I then did the usual hand memory tests - and core memory worked O.K. > every location I tested. > > I then wrote a bunch of small diagnostics (in machine code) - and found > that I/O was not easy to code - but I did enough to check that the > console in/out ports worked O.K. > > Today I loaded diagnostic monitors, and diags - and most of the system - > including I/O is working! The really good news is that all 64K (words) > of core memory passed the long manufacturing memory diagnostic - which > even tests for "hot cores" failing. > > It's been months in the making this critter come alive - but it sure > feels great when the diagnostics tell you that you are on the right > track :-) > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > Mountain View, CA > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jun 5 20:57:39 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 18:57:39 -0700 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <46659264.4070101@msu.edu> References: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4664E950.5070708@msu.edu> <46659264.4070101@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Jun 5, 2007, at 9:42 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I'd definitely be interested to know the procedure. I've > initialized and duplicated disks several times with SCSI disks on > my XL1201, but I've had no luck with ESDI drives on my 3630. The > "Disk Format" FEP command on the 3600 seems only to format the disk > -- it does not create a bad block map; attempting to create a FEP > Filesystem on the disk fails afterwards. According to Dave Schmidt, the "Disk Format" command you get after scanning disk.flod in the FEP: "I have never used this command and have been told that its performance cannot be guaranteed." It creates an empty bad block file. You add blocks to it one at a time with this command: (si:fix-fep-block unit cylinder head sector &key :force-write-test). This must be done from LISP, which obviously must be running. Cylinder, head and sector must be entered in octal. After you finish, you can also fill the disk with test files and run (si:fix-fep-file "path") to try to pick up any additional bad blocks. I don't know if you knew this; the FEP cannot allocate new files in the FEP filesystem, but it can overwrite existing files. The IFS (initial filesystem) tape restores to FEP files which have already been allocated by the BOL procedure. LISP can allocate new files in the FEP filesystem, but if you don't have LISP running, there's a chicken-and-egg problem. > If you can dig up the procedure when you have the time, I'd > appreciate it :). I'll put it on my list. Remind me if you don't hear anything after a while. ok bear From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jun 5 23:09:34 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 05:09:34 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? References: Message-ID: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....hard to get new CRT monitors now and the cheap LCD ones are >rubbish! Cheap nothing, I've never seen *ANY* LCD monitor (either fabulously expensive or dirt cheap) which I would describe as being anything other than diabolical! The same goes for LCD TVs too - and plasma sets aren't much better in my opinion. The people who buy these things must be profoundly blind if they're satisfied with the picture quality produced by the current generations of plasma/LCD screens, the technology simply isn't anywhere near good enough yet. >....We'll soon be reduced to scouring eBay for real monitors :-) Quite, which is why I recently spend several months tracking down a very nice, 32" wide screen *CRT* TV set; which I got for next to nothing since the market is currently flooded with this LCD rubbish. :-) TTFN - Pete. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 18:01:00 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 19:01:00 -0400 Subject: Vintage Mac II NuBus video card identification Message-ID: <009001c7a7c5$630bc4a0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I recently came into possession of a vintage video card apparently for a NuBus Mac II. Can anyone help identify it? I do not have a Mac so I cannot plug it into anything. It is a two card video board from Rasterops with an apparent NuBus connector. The boards both say "RASTEROPS CORP MADE IN U.S.A." The main board says "(C) 1987" and the daughterboard says "(C) 1988" The back of the main card says "P.C.B. 0001-0013 REV. XB1" The back of the daughter card says "P.C.B. 0001-0019 REV. 01" There are no visible FCC IDs anywhere on the card but may be buried under the circuitry. I have not disassembled the card. Here are some photos of the card. ?Any information would be appreciated, even confirming what Mac II NuBus video card this model is NOT would be helpful. ?Based on an earlier post on "comp.sys.mac.graphics" with responses and some clues, I suspect it to be a RasterOps 24L card cannot confirm it. http://www.geocities.com/lynchaj/img_3023.jpg http://www.geocities.com/lynchaj/img_3024.jpg http://www.geocities.com/lynchaj/img_3025.jpg Thanks in advance! Andrew Lynch From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jun 5 23:53:22 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 01:53:22 -0300 Subject: Newton Messagepad spare parts References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <02ca01c7a7f6$e5fe2520$f0fea8c0@alpha> Hmm...Is a messagepad on topic? Anyway, I'm in a need of a new (or used in good condition) digitizer. Anyone can help? Thanks, Alexandre From g-wright at att.net Wed Jun 6 01:32:10 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:32:10 +0000 Subject: AT&T dumb terminals available Seattle WA. Message-ID: <060620070632.28741.466654E90005BE880000704521587667559B0809079D99D309@att.net> Have a few AT&T terminals free for local pickup. I'm located in Kent, Wa. South of Seattle. These have been tested. Models 513 and 615. include keyboards (80's vintage) -Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Jun 6 05:49:06 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:49:06 -0400 Subject: New DEC problem In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F98@EDISERVER.EDICONS.l ocal> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F98@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706061049.l56An7Zq022067@mail.itm-inst.com> At 04:43 AM 6/4/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi > And now something for all you Decsperts to get your teeth into. >My VAX4000-300 is failing the self test. > >After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test >C5. > >Does anybody know what test C5 tests. >If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a >problem. According to the KA670 Tech Manual (EK-KA670-TM, it's on bitsavers.) the C5 diagnostic is for the system support chip. I don't know if an unterminated DSSI will cause this, but it's plausible. Hopefully this additional information will elicit a more helpful reply. -Rick From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 5 23:45:42 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 05:45:42 +0100 Subject: My Collection Profile Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> The story so far: VAX 4000-200 x1 VAX 4000-300 x1 PDP11/94 x4 No CPU cards SA600 (4 x RA92) x1 SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 VT420 x3 VT320 x1 VT330 x1 LA75 x3 Of these, plus other (Non-Dec kit) for sale or swap (All funds to save other old DEC kit) PDP 11/94 (No cpu cards) x2 VT 420 x2 LA75 x2 HP 700 Terminal x1 HP 2392A Terminal x1 Shiva LAN Rover x1 Victor PC in pristine condx. X1 SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 Wish list PDP-8/E KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) x 4 Replacements for the missing 11/94 CPU MSV11-JE x 4 " " 11/94 Memory VT05 VT100 VT220 LA36 LA180 DELNI DECSA Rainbow Anything else with a DEC label I can lift and and will fit into the car. Objectives Working Examples of PDP8 , PDP11, and VAX systems. DECNet Network to connect the above. Working Examples of VT100, VT200, VT300, VT400, and VT500 series terminals Decserver 200 connecting the above to the network Working Examples of LA series terminals/printers Rod Smallwood From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 00:03:49 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 06:03:49 +0100 Subject: DECnet and MOP Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA8@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi It would appear we are saying the same thing. It looks like I got reasonably close and you are confiming that I'll also take it that my interpretation of the relative positions in the OSI model etc. are OK. You imply this anyway. Would you mind answering one or two DECnet questions? Regards Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dave at mitton.com Sent: 06 June 2007 00:30 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DECnet and MOP >Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 02:32:54 +0100 >From: "Rod Smallwood" > Subject: RE: Repairing the damage. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > ... >I probably failed to make my self clear. > > 1. Yes MOP is part of a whole heap of programs that go to make up > DECNET > > 2. MOP stands for Maintenance Operations Protocol and that > what is was for. > > 3 It pre dates DECnet (Well at lest internally in DEC) MOP is part of the DECnet architecture set, and like DECnet has gone through a number of versions, and releases. It actually underwent a boom in the later years, as Ethernet got cheap and diskless network devices became attractive. It is a simple lower level datagram protocol, and does not need the normal session stack to run. In smarter network devices, a MOP bootstrap can be in the device ROM. All that said; architecture, implementation, and deployment vary with platforms and time. For those that grew up on TCP/IP only (and thus doomed to repeat the past), it is best to think of MOP as the DECnet analog of BOOTP, with a little bit of DHCP and ARP sprinkled in. ... > 8. Its twenty-five years since I was a product manager in DEC SWS. No > wonder I'm a bit hazy on this stuff! > > Regards > Rod Smallwood There's your problem. I was a software engineer for DECnet-RSX, DECnet-PRO, DECnet-DOS, and PATHWorks. I was also the architect of the DAP Protocol v6 and a DECnet Token Ring Datalink. The later included MOP specfications too. I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. Dave. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 00:10:56 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 06:10:56 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Boot, well sort of. Its down loading a file from a boot server using BOOT EZA0 (The ethernet port). That it does OK and on the boot server it says download OK. However it does not run the downloaded file. I may have the wrong one. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 05 June 2007 22:54 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: New DEC problem Rod Smallwood wrote: > After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test > C5. > > Does anybody know what test C5 tests. > If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a > problem. When I had a KZQSA in a VAX 4000-500 I found that it would fail self-test if either port was left unterminated. I would not be surprised if an unterminated DSSI port had the same effect. Does it still boot if you make it boot manually (i.e. is the error fatal or does it just interfere with automatic booting?) Antonio From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 6 08:34:37 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:34:37 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <003501c7a7a0$e313cc80$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <200706061237.l56Cb5Sj012854@hosting.monisys.ca> > I have three 5.25" drives (of currently unknown functionality) which I > could use. Drives of known functionality will usually give more meaningful TESTFDC results. > One is a DEC RX33, one is a Tandon TM75-8 and the last one > is a Sankyo (or that might just be the motor manufacturer :-)). I also > have whatever is sitting in my main machine, but I'm not keen to > drag that out just foir fun! I also have a few 1.44MB 3.5" drives, but > they've not been used in quite some time, so heaven knows what state > they are in. I would recommend testing the drives on a known good system first. Unless you know the drives are good, you can't trust the TESTFDC results (A failure could be indicative of a bad drive, not a FDC limitation). > So what do I need to do to extract the maximum useful information > about these motherboards (aside, that is, from checking that they > are not already on the list :-))? And exactly what media will I need? > > Should I test both 3.5" and 5.25" (I've not tried the 300/360 mod yet; > I may do in the future, but for now I'd just like to get some > testing done)? To completely test the FDC, you need to check Single, Double and Double/128 at each of 250, 300 and 500 kbps rates. These are represented in a standard PC at: 250 = 5.25 low-density drive only, 3.5" low-density diskette 300 = 5.25 Low-density diskette in high-density drive 500 = 5.25" or 2.5" high-density diskette So to check all possible data rates without a 300/360 modded drive, you need to run two tests - either the 5.25" LD and HD drives, or a 5.25" HD and 3.5" drive. > Anything to watch out for? As noted above, make sure your drives are working - Ideally they should have recently passed the tests you are about to run when installed in a system with a known good FDC. > Any particular version of DOS recommended (I have 6.2? kicking around, > would FreeDOS do if that is easier to find)? It shouldn't matter - TESTFDC talks to the hardware directly. Just don't have any TSR's or other resident software loaded which might touch the FDC (best to run under bare DOS). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Jun 6 07:44:27 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 08:44:27 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070605083859.03271a50@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070605083859.03271a50@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4666AC2B.6070306@comcast.net> Grant Stockly wrote: > At 02:48 AM 6/5/2007, you wrote: > >> The PCBCart actual cost after shipping is $28 >> I have to make some beer money, my day job pays the bills :) > > Your chinese guys can do good I guess... It's nothing new, the big guys (insert company here) use them frequently. > > >> Sullins does have 2 options for the pin spacing, The Imsai has 0.250" >> spacing. I'm sure that's the same as the other machines(haven't >> looked inside my SOL). >> >> The connectors do get alot cheaper at qty.50, then it's only $9ea >> I'm always looking for more suppliers. > > I'll have to get them to requote my connectors. The Altair uses a > .125 row spacing.. That might be why mine are more expensive. Ask for Rachel Villarreal x119 rachel at edgecards.com =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 6 08:10:02 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 09:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The people who buy these things must be profoundly blind if they're > satisfied with the picture quality produced by the current > generations of plasma/LCD screens, the technology simply isn't > anywhere near good enough yet. Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I find I get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens as compared to CRTs. I don't know whether this just means every CRT I've used has been crap, or perhaps I *am* "profoundly blind", but even if so, in my experience the comparison stands. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 6 08:19:02 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 14:19:02 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/34 front panel, for cost of postage Message-ID: <4666B446.3050109@dunnington.plus.com> Still clearing things out... I found a spare PDP-11/34 front panel -- the "Programmer's" type, with the octal display and octal keypad. Complete with all the cables but does not include the KY11-L SPC card that would control it. Free for cost of postage from York, UK. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 08:34:36 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:34:36 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4666B7EC.6030801@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> The people who buy these things must be profoundly blind if they're >> satisfied with the picture quality produced by the current >> generations of plasma/LCD screens, the technology simply isn't >> anywhere near good enough yet. > > Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I find I > get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens as compared > to CRTs. > > I don't know whether this just means every CRT I've used has been crap, > or perhaps I *am* "profoundly blind", but even if so, in my experience > the comparison stands. I use a high-end flat-panel at work and a high-end CRT at home and my experience suggests that good ones still aren't quite as fast as the *best* CRTs, and they can't compete with phosphor persistence for smoothness but the difference is very quickly going away. It won't be long before there's effectively none. Any top-end CRT (of which they don't make many anymore -- a shame -- I buy mine used nowadays) will also have easily higher resolution than a flat panel of similar size. But the flat panels use *soo* much less power. Try mine. Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2040u. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 6 09:10:08 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:10:08 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200706061010.09038.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 06 June 2007 09:10, der Mouse wrote: > > The people who buy these things must be profoundly blind if they're > > satisfied with the picture quality produced by the current > > generations of plasma/LCD screens, the technology simply isn't > > anywhere near good enough yet. > > Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I find I > get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens as > compared to CRTs. > > I don't know whether this just means every CRT I've used has been > crap, or perhaps I *am* "profoundly blind", but even if so, in my > experience the comparison stands. No, I think 99% of most people (well, those that don't completely reject modern technology because it's modern ;) would agree with you. Gaming (speed of display) and color rendition are the only real two niches left for CRTs, and LCDs are quickly approaching CRT quality for those areas... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 09:35:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:35:19 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706061010.09038.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200706061010.09038.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 6/6/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Gaming (speed of display) and color rendition are the only real two > niches left for CRTs, and LCDs are quickly approaching CRT quality for > those areas... I haven't done much (any?) high-intensity gaming on LCDs - just old-school games like Master of Orion or Starcraft (or Zork ;-) so I can't comment on LCD smear, though I know abstractly it's an issue. Personally, though, I've spent a lot of time in the past four years in front of LCDs - more than CRTs (laptops, modern flat panels, etc). I happen to be on an older Sun monitor at the moment, and it's annoyingly fuzzy at 1152x900 compared to my 1024x768 laptop. The CRT is properly adjusted and looks just as good as the day it shipped (or at least as good as my memories from 10 years ago). It's just not as sharp as a modern LCD. I recall that older (640x400 and 800x600) LCDs aren't as sharp as modern ones, either; they've really crisped up the black and have, as far as I can tell, thinner or optically better front-glass to minimize pixel diffusion. That having been said, though, I would still prefer a CRT for old-school arcade games... who wants crisp edges on Space Invaders or Pacman (or Boot Hill, Seawolf and the _really_ old-school B&W games). I'm seeing LCDs advertised with sub-10ms response time. Since that's faster than NTSC frame-rates, I can't imagine that they look awful compared to a CRT. The question is, how fast is fast enough that it doesn't matter. -ethan From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Wed Jun 6 09:49:42 2007 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now and then. The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jun 6 10:10:46 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:10:46 +0100 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: References: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4666CE76.8060202@philpem.me.uk> Mark KAHRS wrote: > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now > and then. > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? Yeah, me, for one! :) I've got a few TI, Harris, Intersil and Inmos databooks (and the Dallas Semiconductor product line guide and data CD - somewhere - including a bunch of datasheets they recently made NDA-only). I'm also happy to scan and email/upload any datasheets I have if people want/need them. If you're planning to get rid of them, let me know where you are, what you've got and how much you're wanting (assuming you want to sell them, that is). I keep most of my databooks around because Datasheetarchive isn't particularly complete (they do have the Signetics linear PROM datasheets including programming specs though) and I tend to find/buy/receive boards and ICs for which data is no longer available, often to the point where the original manufacturer either no longer exists or denies that the IC in question was ever made. Thanks, -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 10:18:51 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 16:18:51 +0100 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: References: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I do but Im in the wrong country (UK) Dave Caroline On 6/6/07, Mark KAHRS wrote: > > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now > and then. > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 6 10:43:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:43:54 -0600 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:10:46 +0100. <4666CE76.8060202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4666CE76.8060202 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > Mark KAHRS wrote: > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? > > Yeah, me, for one! :) And if you need someone to become custodian of them on the US side of the pond, I can do that. I have a large pile of data books from the late 80s/early 90s, and even those are hard to find online. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 6 11:07:48 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:07:48 -0500 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4666DBD4.5040901@mdrconsult.com> der Mouse wrote: > Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I find I > get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens as compared > to CRTs. > > I don't know whether this just means every CRT I've used has been crap, > or perhaps I *am* "profoundly blind", but even if so, in my experience > the comparison stands. I ditched a recently refurbished and tuned 21" SGI (GDM-5011P) for my 20" Dell flat-panel (2007FP). I would say that both displays are close to the top of their class, as far as comparisons go. I don't play games, so I really don't depend on lightning refresh rates. However, color consistency is at least as good on the Dell, white whites and black blacks are closer to true on the Dell, and after 12 or 16 hours of staring at the screen, the eye-strain is notably less. The Dell also has a considerably bigger viewing area. The rated thermal budget for the Dell is 187 BTU/hr typical, as opposed to ~550 BTU/hr for the 5011P. Living in Texas, just the savings on cooling will pay for the flat panel in a couple of years. And my desk no longer sags in the middle. :) Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 11:26:30 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:26:30 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <4666DBD4.5040901@mdrconsult.com> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4666DBD4.5040901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 6/6/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > The rated thermal budget for the Dell is 187 BTU/hr typical, as > opposed to ~550 BTU/hr for the 5011P. Living in Texas, just the savings > on cooling will pay for the flat panel in a couple of years. No doubt... I recently switched from a Sun 17E10 to a $5 scratched-up Dell LCD panel I bought at the Mansfield Hamfest, specifically because the room gets to over +90F with the AC off (possible in Ohio, but not pleasant ;-) when the computer and monitor are on. I might switch back to the CRT for the heating season, though. > And my desk no longer sags in the middle. :) Heh... on another desk, I have a Sun 20E20... it's on a 2"x12" shelf that doesn't sag much. -ethan From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 6 11:48:58 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 17:48:58 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <003401c7a85a$95784a40$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > Boot, well sort of. Its down loading a file from a boot server using > BOOT EZA0 (The ethernet port). > That it does OK and on the boot server it says download OK. > However it does not run the downloaded file. I may have the wrong one. If it manages to download something (and thinks that it is successful) then that sounds like a non-fatal error. What are you downloading? Antonio From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jun 6 11:53:08 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:53:08 -0500 Subject: free for shipping: IMS 5000 IS system, from austin, tx, usa Message-ID: <4666E674.1030701@pacbell.net> I have mentioned this system on this list a couple times before. The IMS 5000 IS is a S-100 based multiprocessor system running turbodos 1.3 (an extended multiprocessing CP/M clone). It is a very well built machine, clearly intended for office use. It has a single DSDD 96 tpi 5.25" floppy and a 10 MB hard disk (rodime ro 200). It boots off the hard drive, and couple months ago I spent some time and cracked the login/password file. The floppy disk appears to work (I can "dir" and get files off a floppy created on a PC using the teledisk program). The system doesn't have much on it in the way of development software, just some custom apps written for the dentist's office this came out of. As it is a CP/M system, though, you can use standard CP/M programs on it. The master system has a 8085-based intelligent terminal card, plus a master Z80 CPU and two slave Z80 CPUs. Each cpu has 64 KB of parity checked DRAM. I tried plugging in the slave to the master but I suspect things are not cabled right, as the slave terminal acts as if it is wired in parallel to the master terminal. I'd like to find a new home for this system. I simply don't have enough time to mess with it, and I don't have enough interest to make the time. Here are some a few cruddy pictures: http://home.pacbell.net/frustum/ims5000/ The only problem is that the local/remote key on the slave terminal keyboard is broken off (before I received it). The key still works; you can depress the stub of the plunger that is left, but luckily it is a key that normally doesn't need to be used. This system would be shipped from austin, tx 78737 at your expense. I recommend fedex ground, as it seems to be the least expensive of the majors for heavy items like this. It would be two boxes. I haven't weighed them, but I would guess 50 lbs and 30 lbs. They were shipped to me in their original boxes, and I'd ship them to you the same way. This means that there is a custom foam shell for each unit, but it also means that the original boxes are somewhat tattered and one has been reinforced, so don't wail that I've ruined everything by harming the original boxes. I'll give preference to anybody willing to come and pick them up, soon. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 6 11:51:19 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DECnet and MOP In-Reply-To: <4970113.1181086211496.JavaMail.?@fh1037.dia.cp.net> References: <4970113.1181086211496.JavaMail.?@fh1037.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. I don't suppose you have softcopies? Or that someone else has them available for fetch? I'd like to have a stab at implementing DECnet. (Not because I have any production use for it; just as part of my drive to understand everything - nothing teaches a protocol like implementing it.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 6 12:02:49 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:02:49 +0100 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706061237.l56Cb5Sj012854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <003501c7a85c$8654a3e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I would recommend testing the drives on a known good system first. > Unless you know the drives are good, you can't trust the TESTFDC > results (A failure could be indicative of a bad drive, not a FDC > limitation). What's "good enough" testing? As a minimum I'll boot DOS, format a floppy with the drive and put DOS onto the floppy, then boot the floppy. Is that enough or are there oddball quirks that might be better exposed by something else? > So to check all possible data rates without a 300/360 modded drive, > you need to run two tests - either the 5.25" LD and HD drives, or a > 5.25" HD and 3.5" drive. Good. I should be able to rustle up at least one of those combinations. Thanks Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 6 12:17:36 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:17:36 -0400 Subject: Newton Messagepad spare parts In-Reply-To: <02ca01c7a7f6$e5fe2520$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <02ca01c7a7f6$e5fe2520$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <14518B5F-1E5F-4956-8879-0F694C4BA22A@neurotica.com> On Jun 6, 2007, at 12:53 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Anyway, I'm in a need of a new (or used in good condition) > digitizer. Anyone can help? I don't know if this will be helpful...but I have seen brand new Newton touch pads on eBay over the past several months. New displays, too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From steve at radiorobots.com Wed Jun 6 12:22:56 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:22:56 -0400 Subject: free for shipping: IMS 5000 IS system, from austin, tx, usa In-Reply-To: <4666E674.1030701@pacbell.net> References: <4666E674.1030701@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4666ED70.6040703@radiorobots.com> Hi Jim, Happy to have Fedex come to your door to pick up on my account. Thanks, Steve Boston Jim Battle wrote: > I have mentioned this system on this list a couple times before. The > IMS 5000 IS is a S-100 based multiprocessor system running turbodos > 1.3 (an extended multiprocessing CP/M clone). It is a very well built > machine, clearly intended for office use. > > It has a single DSDD 96 tpi 5.25" floppy and a 10 MB hard disk (rodime > ro 200). It boots off the hard drive, and couple months ago I spent > some time and cracked the login/password file. The floppy disk > appears to work (I can "dir" and get files off a floppy created on a > PC using the teledisk program). > > The system doesn't have much on it in the way of development software, > just some custom apps written for the dentist's office this came out > of. As it is a CP/M system, though, you can use standard CP/M > programs on it. > > The master system has a 8085-based intelligent terminal card, plus a > master Z80 CPU and two slave Z80 CPUs. Each cpu has 64 KB of parity > checked DRAM. > > I tried plugging in the slave to the master but I suspect things are > not cabled right, as the slave terminal acts as if it is wired in > parallel to the master terminal. > > I'd like to find a new home for this system. I simply don't have > enough time to mess with it, and I don't have enough interest to make > the time. > > Here are some a few cruddy pictures: > > http://home.pacbell.net/frustum/ims5000/ > > The only problem is that the local/remote key on the slave terminal > keyboard is broken off (before I received it). The key still works; > you can depress the stub of the plunger that is left, but luckily it > is a key that normally doesn't need to be used. > > This system would be shipped from austin, tx 78737 at your expense. I > recommend fedex ground, as it seems to be the least expensive of the > majors for heavy items like this. It would be two boxes. I haven't > weighed them, but I would guess 50 lbs and 30 lbs. They were shipped > to me in their original boxes, and I'd ship them to you the same way. > This means that there is a custom foam shell for each unit, but it > also means that the original boxes are somewhat tattered and one has > been reinforced, so don't wail that I've ruined everything by harming > the original boxes. > > I'll give preference to anybody willing to come and pick them up, soon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 6 12:17:29 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:17:29 -0500 Subject: DEC parts code reference? Message-ID: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Out of interest (and to my shame, without googling first :-), did DEC (or a third party) ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" against function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.) I'm trying to sort out our documentation archives, and DEC seem very good at just listing the codes as title ("DZ11-C technical manual" etc.) on a lot of their docs - meaning I have to skim pages to get a handle on what the thing actually is) cheers Jules From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jun 6 11:30:40 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:30:40 -0300 Subject: TESTFDC usage Message-ID: <01C7A83F.000852E0@mandr71> --------Original Message: Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:34:37 -0500 From: "Dave Dunfield" Subject: Re: TESTFDC usage To completely test the FDC, you need to check Single, Double and Double/128 at each of 250, 300 and 500 kbps rates. These are represented in a standard PC at: 250 = 5.25 low-density drive only, 3.5" low-density diskette 300 = 5.25 Low-density diskette in high-density drive 500 = 5.25" or 2.5" high-density diskette So to check all possible data rates without a 300/360 modded drive, you need to run two tests - either the 5.25" LD and HD drives, or a 5.25" HD and 3.5" drive. ---------------------- I also wanted to do some testing but, despite our off-list correspondence, I'm still confused: 5.25" drive, 3.5" diskette ??? 2.5" diskette ??? 3.5" drive - LD or HD? Exactly what tests should be run with what size/density disk in what size/ density/speed drive in order to get a complete picture? mike From pechter at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 12:31:03 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:31:03 -0400 Subject: DECnet and MOP In-Reply-To: <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4970113.1181086211496.JavaMail.?@fh1037.dia.cp.net> <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 6/6/07, der Mouse wrote: > > > I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. > > I don't suppose you have softcopies? Or that someone else has them > available for fetch? > > I'd like to have a stab at implementing DECnet. (Not because I have > any production use for it; just as part of my drive to understand > everything - nothing teaches a protocol like implementing it.) > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Softcopies linked to on http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/docs/doc_index.html -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 12:33:02 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:33:02 -0500 Subject: My Collection Profile In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <624966d60706061033t2143d491t543117ffec39300@mail.gmail.com> Hi Rod, I have most of the items on your wish list, but I'm in the states. Thanks, Paul On 6/5/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > The story so far: > > VAX 4000-200 x1 > > VAX 4000-300 x1 > > PDP11/94 x4 No CPU cards > > SA600 (4 x RA92) x1 > > SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 > > VT420 x3 > > VT320 x1 > > VT330 x1 > > LA75 x3 > > > > > > Of these, plus other (Non-Dec kit) for sale or swap > > (All funds to save other old DEC kit) > > PDP 11/94 (No cpu cards) x2 > > VT 420 x2 > > LA75 x2 > > HP 700 Terminal x1 > > HP 2392A Terminal x1 > > Shiva LAN Rover x1 > > Victor PC in pristine condx. X1 > > SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 > > Wish list > > PDP-8/E > > KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) x 4 Replacements for the missing 11/94 CPU > > MSV11-JE x 4 " " 11/94 Memory > > VT05 > > VT100 > > VT220 > > LA36 > > LA180 > > DELNI > > DECSA > > Rainbow > > Anything else with a DEC label I can lift and and will fit into the > car. > > Objectives > > Working Examples of PDP8 , PDP11, and VAX systems. > > DECNet Network to connect the above. > > Working Examples of VT100, VT200, VT300, VT400, and VT500 series > terminals > > Decserver 200 connecting the above to the network > > Working Examples of LA series terminals/printers > > > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 6 12:26:56 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:26:56 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <003501c7a85c$8654a3e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <003501c7a85c$8654a3e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <4666EE60.8060909@yahoo.co.uk> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I would recommend testing the drives on a known good system first. >> Unless you know the drives are good, you can't trust the TESTFDC >> results (A failure could be indicative of a bad drive, not a FDC >> limitation). > > What's "good enough" testing? As a minimum I'll boot DOS, > format a floppy with the drive and put DOS onto the floppy, then > boot the floppy. Is that enough or are there oddball quirks that > might be better exposed by something else? A few of the PC motherboards I found were highly dependent on the drives used as to what tests they'd pass. Mitsumi drives seemed to cause a lot of problems, and I had one board which refused to pass tests with any 3.5" drive despite passing the same tests with any 5.25" drive. So yes, there are quirks (through no fault of testfdc) :-( From pechter at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 12:43:03 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:43:03 -0400 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 6/6/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Out of interest (and to my shame, without googling first :-), did DEC (or > a > third party) ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" against > function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.) > > I'm trying to sort out our documentation archives, and DEC seem very good > at > just listing the codes as title ("DZ11-C technical manual" etc.) on a lot > of > their docs - meaning I have to skim pages to get a handle on what the > thing > actually is) > > cheers > > Jules I've never seen one... From memory, R"x" -- Rotating Memory Device or Controller (RA, RB, RC, RD, RF, RK, RL, RM, RP, RS, RX, T"x" -- Tape drive (either Reel-to-Reel or cassette or dectape dvc or controller) TA, TC, TD, TM, TU, TE, TS, D"x" -- Communication or other interconnect device -- DL, DU, DM, DN, DS, K"b" -- CPU component or functional part KA, KB, KC, DD followed by something is a backplane option -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Jun 6 12:51:21 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:51:21 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/34 front panel, for cost of postage In-Reply-To: <4666B446.3050109@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4666B446.3050109@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <003101c7a863$4afa1300$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hi Pete, Does this include the mounting brackets? Thanks Julian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 8:19 AM > To: ClassicCmp > Subject: PDP-11/34 front panel, for cost of postage > > Still clearing things out... > > I found a spare PDP-11/34 front panel -- the "Programmer's" > type, with the octal display and octal keypad. Complete with > all the cables but does not include the KY11-L SPC card that > would control it. Free for cost of postage from York, UK. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jun 6 12:46:51 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:46:51 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: References: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200706061346.51696.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 06 June 2007 10:49, Mark KAHRS wrote: > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now > and then. > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? (Waving...) I'm the one with the data sheet archives, too, which are by necessity a work in progress. Contributions of datasheets in electronic form gladly accepted, as are suggestions as to how I might improve the pages: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/parts-index.html I also have lots of boxes of databooks on hand here, at least until I get some more shelving built, and more than one flatbed scanner, but then there's the time factor... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jun 6 13:07:11 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:07:11 -0700 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: References: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4666F7CF.7020906@shiresoft.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > On 6/6/07, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> >> Out of interest (and to my shame, without googling first :-), did DEC >> (or >> a >> third party) ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" >> against >> function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.) >> >> I'm trying to sort out our documentation archives, and DEC seem very >> good >> at >> just listing the codes as title ("DZ11-C technical manual" etc.) on a >> lot >> of >> their docs - meaning I have to skim pages to get a handle on what the >> thing >> actually is) >> >> cheers >> >> Jules > > > I've never seen one... From memory, > > R"x" -- Rotating Memory Device or Controller (RA, RB, RC, RD, RF, > RK, RL, > RM, RP, RS, RX, > > T"x" -- Tape drive (either Reel-to-Reel or cassette or dectape dvc or > controller) TA, TC, TD, TM, TU, TE, TS, > D"x" -- Communication or other interconnect device -- DL, DU, DM, DN, > DS, > K"b" -- CPU component or functional part KA, KB, KC, > DD followed by something is a backplane option > > I think the closest you'll find are the various peripheral handbooks. -- TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 6 13:05:14 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:05:14 -0700 Subject: DEC parts code reference? Message-ID: <4666F75A.4090706@bitsavers.org> did DEC (or a third party) ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" against function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.) -- Yes, the 'edited' and 'unedited' options/modules list(s) The April 1983 edited document can be found at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/modules/modulesAndOptions/ There are separate catalogs for documentation, since they changed more often with software releases. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 13:18:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 11:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <200706061346.51696.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. There's also the automated page flipper type thing. I had a particular design in mind, then I saw this, and it was even better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRPZm3pyC4o No, that's not the original page I found several months ago, and I don't feel like looking for it (if it's still up). But that's the very one a Japanese dude built. --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Wednesday 06 June 2007 10:49, Mark KAHRS wrote: > > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept > them partly out of > > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix > stuff of that era now > > and then. > > > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are > woefully incomplete. > > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects > these? > > (Waving...) > > I'm the one with the data sheet archives, too, > which are by necessity a work > in progress. Contributions of datasheets in > electronic form gladly accepted, > as are suggestions as to how I might improve the > pages: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/parts-index.html > > I also have lots of boxes of databooks on hand here, > at least until I get > some more shelving built, and more than one flatbed > scanner, but then > there's the time factor... > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most > unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a > critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, > "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a > society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 6 14:20:58 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:20:58 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <01C7A83F.000852E0@mandr71> Message-ID: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> > Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:34:37 -0500 > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Subject: Re: TESTFDC usage > > > > To completely test the FDC, you need to check Single, Double and > Double/128 at each of 250, 300 and 500 kbps rates. These are > represented in a standard PC at: > > 250 = 5.25 low-density drive only, 3.5" low-density diskette > 300 = 5.25 Low-density diskette in high-density drive > 500 = 5.25" or 2.5" high-density diskette > > So to check all possible data rates without a 300/360 modded drive, > you need to run two tests - either the 5.25" LD and HD drives, or a > 5.25" HD and 3.5" drive. > > ---------------------- > > I also wanted to do some testing but, despite our off-list correspondence, > I'm still confused: > > 5.25" drive, 3.5" diskette ??? Either a 5.25" low density drive (and it should be obvious which type of diskette you need to use with it) - OR - a 3.5" low-density diskette in either type of 3.5" drive (no I am not trying to tell you to put a 3.5" diskette into a 5.25" drive) > 2.5" diskette ??? Humm.... 5,25" or 2.5" ... obviously the 2.5 is a typo, so it must have been either: 5.25" or 5.25" -or- 5.25" or 3.5" I wonder which one it could be... Basically, testing HD in either type of drive (with HD diskette) will test 500kbps. > 3.5" drive - LD or HD? Let me try to explain it all. All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. to get DD a data rate of 250kbps is used. to get HD a data rate of 500kbps is used (HD drive only). - When doing DD, it DOES NOT MATTER what type the 3.5" drive is, the data rate, rotation speed and head width are all exactly the same ... this is why 3.5" HD drives do not have the compatibility problems with DD media sometimes observed with 5.25" HD drives. All 5.25" low-density drives turn at 300rpm. to get DD a data rate of 250kbps is used. HD is not applicable. Almost-All PC 5.25" high-density drives turn at 360rpm. to get DD a data rate of 300kbps is used (note1) to get HD a data rate of 500kbps is used (note2) note1: 300kbps at 360rpm works out to exactly the same bit density as 250kbps at 300rpm - this is the "compatibility mode" to allow single-speed 360rpm 5.25" drives to read/write DD diskettes. note2: The HD data rate is 500kbps on both 3.5" and 5.25" drives. The slower 3.5" (300 rpm) drives store more bits on a track, as it takes longer for the whole track to pass under the head. This is the reason that 3.5" HD disks store 1.44M which 5.25" HD disks store 1.2M note3: 360rpm / 500kbps is electrically the same as an 8" drive, which is why it's fairly easy to replace 8" drives with 5.25" HD drives. > Exactly what tests should be run with what size/density disk in what size/ > density/speed drive in order to get a complete picture? When I say "drive" I mean that exact type of drive. When I say "diskette" I mean that type of diskette, and it does not matter which type of drive (LD or HD) it is in - obviously it has to be the same physical format as the diskette. To test 250kbps rate, you need ONE of: 3.5" drive (either type) with 3.5" LOW DENSITY diskette. 5.25" LOW-DENSITY drive (with 5.25" LOW DENSITY diskette) To test 300kpbs, you need: 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 5.25" LOW-DENSITY diskette To test 500kbps, you need ONE of: 3.5" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 3.5" HIGH-DENSITY diskette. 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY diskette. For most people, who have 3.5" and 5.25" HD drives, running the full tests available for both those drive types will test all the possible combinations (in fact it will test 500kbps twice). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 6 14:25:18 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:25:18 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <003501c7a85c$8654a3e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <200706061237.l56Cb5Sj012854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> >> > I would recommend testing the drives on a known good system first. > > Unless you know the drives are good, you can't trust the TESTFDC > > results (A failure could be indicative of a bad drive, not a FDC > > limitation). > > What's "good enough" testing? As a minimum I'll boot DOS, > format a floppy with the drive and put DOS onto the floppy, then > boot the floppy. Is that enough or are there oddball quirks that > might be better exposed by something else? If you don't use/trust the drives on a regular basis, then this is likely the best you will be able to do - I would at least format, copy on a file big enough to nearly fill the drive and then copy it back off and confirm that all operations worked OK - this will be sure to check the inner tracks which is where TESTFDC does it's thing. Ideally, you would use known good/working drives. In my case, I have all of the available drive types as externally attachable drives, and I use them all frequently - knowing that I can trust the drives gives me confidence in the TESTFDC results when I check out a new mainboard. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 13:37:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 11:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "vintage peecee - description forthcoming" LOL LOL LOL Message-ID: <662786.32449.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> ooh that's all I needed to hear! so stand back! I just gotta bid on this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-PC-Description-to-come_W0QQitemZ260124366498QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 13:39:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:39:07 -0400 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: References: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 6/6/07, Bill Pechter wrote: > On 6/6/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > ... did DEC... ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" against > > function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.) > I've never seen one... From memory, > > R"x" -- Rotating Memory Device or Controller (RA, RB, RC, RD, RF, RK, RL, > RM, RP, RS, RX, > > T"x" -- Tape drive (either Reel-to-Reel or cassette or dectape dvc or > controller) TA, TC, TD, TM, TU, TE, TS, > D"x" -- Communication or other interconnect device -- DL, DU, DM, DN, DS, > K"b" -- CPU component or functional part KA, KB, KC, > DD followed by something is a backplane option More so with interfaces than external periperals (which might work on multiple types of CPUs), there's Q or V for Qbus (RQDX3), U for Unibus (UDA50), B for VAXBI (DWBUA, KDB50), 8 for PDP-8 (RL8A), 11 for PDP-11 (DUP11), 10 for PDP-10, etc., but there are plenty of oddball devices that don't exactly follow the pattern (KDA50 for Qbus, for example, or DMF32 which doesn't trumpet that it's for the Unibus, but then many Unibus devices lack a "U" when there's no Qbus equivalent to disambiguate it from). It doesn't help you to decipher exactly what goes with what, or what capacities, etc. (as in, an RK05 is a disk (R) with removable platters (K and others), and 5th in a line (from the RK01 through the RK07. You wouldn't know from that breakdown that RK05 and RK06 disk packs have different numbers of platters (vs, say, the RL01 and RL02 which are identical in shape, but differ only in low-level format), but you can at least tell something about the device. To continue, the RK05 might attach to your CPU with an RK11C, or RK11D or RKV11D or an RK8E... each of those _does_ tell you something about what sort of machine they attach to. So there is a pattern, but it's not absolute, nor does it do more than convey gross, general characteristics of the device. Still, I suppose it's better than a random 4-digit number (*ducks the bricks being thrown by the IBM crowd* ;-) -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 13:38:57 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 11:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 in Australia Message-ID: <561857.51912.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Tandy-TRS-80-Model-2000-complete-system-box_W0QQitemZ120128683061QQihZ002QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem no keyboard apparently (though I could be wrong). Rock on Aussie dudes! We got software (or did) if ya need it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tandy2000/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 13:59:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 11:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 16/8 on eBay Message-ID: <156178.62810.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/1983-XEROX-16-8-Professional-Computer-RARE-COMPLETE_W0QQitemZ180127773557QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From eelco at huininga.nl Wed Jun 6 14:09:16 2007 From: eelco at huininga.nl (Eelco Huininga) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:09:16 +0200 Subject: Acorn Second Processors In-Reply-To: <200705311745.l4VHhnES045131@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705311745.l4VHhnES045131@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4667065C.4010801@huininga.nl> > > Hi, > > > > >> Changing the subject slightly, IIRC the original "Acorn 6502 > > >>Second Processor" cheese-wedge was just that, a faster 6502? > > > > > > Actualy, it's a 3MHz 65C02. > > > > Ah, thanks for that....it's been a few years since I had the lid off mine. > > > > > > >>....problems (in fact, total failure IIRC?) when I tried running > > >>a 65c02 in a Model B sometime in the early 90's? > > > > I too recently tried that, with three new 65c02's. The BBC would have > none of it : it only booted with the NMOS 6502 > > Jos IIRC this was caused by a slight timing difference of the Phi2 signal. This could be solved by placing two 220pF ceramic capacitors over pins 7 and 11 of IC29 and IC37. This would fix the Beeb's booting problem, but unfortunately this would create a DRAM timing problem for Solidisk's 96k Sideways RAM expansion for the 32k SWR board. Took me (literally) years to figure that out! One of my 'when-i-have-time' things is experimenting with the capacitor's value to see if I can find the right value :-) Cheers, Eelco From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 14:16:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:16:53 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061237.l56Cb5Sj012854@hosting.monisys.ca>, <003501c7a85c$8654a3e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname>, <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4666A5B5.2555.1FD58E0D@cclist.sydex.com> There are some NEC and Mitsubishi 3.5" drives that have a fair number of additional signals on the odd-numbered connector pin side--usually used on CNC and some lab equipment on 9801-series architectures. When replacing these, we've found that any old 3.5" drive won't do-- an exact replacement is necessary. I'm surprised no one mentioned 3.5" DSED testing. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 6 14:19:39 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 20:19:39 +0100 Subject: DECnet and MOP In-Reply-To: <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <004001c7a86f$a1d9cbf0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> der Mouse wrote: >> I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. > > I don't suppose you have softcopies? Or that someone else has them > available for fetch? http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/docs/doc_index.html If they're not all there I do have a complete set lying around on a disk somewhere. The Phase IV specs were available freely on gatekeeper.dec.com. The Phase V ones were only available for purchase AFAIK. Antonio From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 14:26:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 in Australia In-Reply-To: <561857.51912.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <11637.5852.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Tandy-TRS-80-Model-2000-complete-system-box_W0QQitemZ120128683061QQihZ002QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > no keyboard apparently (though I could be wrong). > Rock > on Aussie dudes! We got software (or did) if ya need > it: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tandy2000/ come to think of it there is a way of modding a Tandy 1000 keyboard to work w/a 2000. I could forware the information to anyone who's interested. I haven't tried it *yet* myself... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From rickb at bensene.com Wed Jun 6 14:38:42 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:38:42 -0700 Subject: Old TEC Terminal In-Reply-To: References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><4666DBD4.5040901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: I dug out the old TEC terminal that I had stored away. It is a TEC Model 1440. It indeed uses MOS shift registers for character storage (2xMK1109), and also (6x 8-pin DIP devices which I've not been able to identify) for spinning out each line of dots. It has a custom ROM made by AMI for the character generator. It uses an LSI UART. All of the rest of the digital logic is standard TTL, mostly 7400-Series. It uses a standard Ball Brothers TV-120 video monitor subassembly. It looks like the X/Y drivers are IC-based amplifiers, and are on the main logic board. They have large clip-on heatsinks on them. Can't see the part number, as it apperas to be covered by the heatsinks. The CRT is "clean", with no signs of burn-in or delamination. I tried to power it up, but it blows the fuse immediately (2A slow-blow), so either power supply caps have malformed, or a rectifier/transistor in the power supply circuitry has gone bad. No smoke or any other bad signs. Close inspection of the logic board, and the various other boards (power supply, HV supply, CRT drive) show no signs of any blown or burnt components. Flyback transformer looks good. I was able to get a small spark from the HV supply by using the standard technique to drain off the HV charge. Date codes on the TTL parts range from late 1977 through early 1978. The terminal was manufactured later than I expected, but I believe that the design was probably pretty old, as by early '78, there were lot better ways to make a terminal. The terminal probably had a fairly long production life. The keyboard is clearly set up for standard ASCII character set. It has a "line/local" switch on it to put the terminal into online or local mode. It has a port labeled "I/O", a DB-25 connector, that appears to be usable for connection to some type of peripheral devices, perhaps a printer, or a paper tape punch. It uses fairly standard keyswitch modules. The keycaps show little wear. It has an "ESCAPE" key, along with a "RUBOUT" key, and "CTRL" key, along with the normal keyboard layout. They keyboard plugs into the main unit using a cable with a DB-25 male connector on one end that plugs into a DB-25 female connector on the back panel of the main unit. The main unit has a large power switch on the back panel, and a single knob on the front panel for varying display brightness. It appears that there were a number of options for the terminal. There is an open spot on the circuit board for a switch which is labeled on the circuit board as selection for 80x24 or 40x12. It appears that this terminal as a control sequence that can switch the modes, as when I powered it up last, a number of years ago, I could get it to come up in 80x24 or 40x12 modes on power-up. The main circuit board has nomenclature indicating that it is a "1440/45 TELE-TEC LOGIC BOARD". Anyone out there have an operating manual, service manual, or schematics for this thing? I think it would be fun to try to bring it back to life. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 6 15:18:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 14:18:35 -0600 Subject: Old TEC Terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:38:42 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > Anyone out there have an operating manual, service manual, or schematics > for this thing? I think it would be fun to try to bring it back to > life. Damn, after all that, I was hoping you were going to offer it up to someone on the list, namely me :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Jun 6 15:23:33 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:23:33 -0700 Subject: DECnet and MOP In-Reply-To: <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4970113.1181086211496.JavaMail.?@fh1037.dia.cp.net> <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: At 12:51 PM -0400 6/6/07, der Mouse wrote: > > I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. > >I don't suppose you have softcopies? Or that someone else has them >available for fetch? Al has an excellent selection on bitsavers. Scans of my own copies are archived at . John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 6 15:29:06 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives at 360RPM. That enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" That was a good, through explanation. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 15:54:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:54:29 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca>, <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4666BC95.21793.202EE954@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2007 at 13:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives at 360RPM. That > enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" I've got a couple of very neat Toshiba 3.5" drives that auto-adjust rotational speed. You can't format a 1.3MB 360 RPM floppy but you can read and write one. Many USB floppies as well as the Imation Superdrive will do the same-- i.e. read/write, but no format. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 6 15:48:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 15:48:27 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46671D9B.7060809@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. > > Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives at 360RPM. That > enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" > > That was a good, through explanation. Indeed. It needs to be put on its own web page somewhere so it can be referenced. It's surprising how often the topic crops up (not just here, but on any kind of vintage computing group) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 16:11:55 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floppy issues was Re: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <46671D9B.7060809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <180870.42155.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Indeed. It needs to be put on its own web page > somewhere so it can be > referenced. It's surprising how often the topic > crops up (not just here, but > on any kind of vintage computing group) Now what would be nice is a *small* document that would explain why rotational speeds and other things matter, particularly when making/recreating images. A catalog of different drive types and their issues would go hand in hand w/such. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 6 16:00:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:00:31 -0500 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: References: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4667206F.207@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > So there is a pattern, but it's not absolute, nor does it do more than > convey gross, general characteristics of the device. That's precisely my problem - I was spotting vague patterns earlier, but then something would come along that just didn't fit in, and having a few exceptions makes the whole idea of sifting things based on part code alone rather redundant :-) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 6 16:17:46 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 22:17:46 +0100 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4667247A.5030507@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/06/2007 21:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. > > Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives at 360RPM. That > enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" And some early Sony 3.5" drives turn at 600 rpm, using twice the normal data rate. But they have a different interface pinout as well, so you're unlikely to see them in a PC. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 6 16:28:15 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 22:28:15 +0100 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: <4667206F.207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <004701c7a881$98e60f10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Jules Richardson wrote: > That's precisely my problem - I was spotting vague patterns earlier, > but then something would come along that just didn't fit in, and > having a few exceptions makes the whole idea of sifting things based > on part code alone rather redundant :-) DEC produced "stuff" for (just) over 40 years; naming consistency over that period is a tad tough :-) Someone sent me a copy of an Options and Modules CD set from the mid 1990s ... I think I sent it to Manx but I'm not sure how easy it would be to make available over the net. (It's not the amount of data, it's more how to present it). Antonio From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 08:21:43 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:21:43 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FAF@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Thanks Rick I'll get the CPU manual from bitsavers. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: 06 June 2007 11:49 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New DEC problem At 04:43 AM 6/4/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi > And now something for all you Decsperts to get your teeth into. >My VAX4000-300 is failing the self test. > >After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test >C5. > >Does anybody know what test C5 tests. >If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a >problem. According to the KA670 Tech Manual (EK-KA670-TM, it's on bitsavers.) the C5 diagnostic is for the system support chip. I don't know if an unterminated DSSI will cause this, but it's plausible. Hopefully this additional information will elicit a more helpful reply. -Rick From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 08:43:03 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:43:03 +0100 Subject: Re collection profile Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FB1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well the DELNI can come off the list and from using a Chase IOLAN box as terminal server. I now have enough Decserver 200's to connect every type of serial device DEC ever made. They were going for a song so I gave them my version of "My Way" and got them very cheap!! Rod Smallwood From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 16:33:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <4667247A.5030507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <786926.45711.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> what about the Sony drives that appeared in the SMC-70 series? Can't we talk about them for a bit? I was under the impression neither set (one in an SMC-70, another in an SMC-70C) worked, but then I remembered that these computers have sort of a mode switch, one setting makes the puter boot from the drives, so maybe that was my problem. Has anyone played with these? Could those units take a standard 3.5" drive? --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 06/06/2007 21:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. > > > > Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives > at 360RPM. That > > enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", > 5.25", and 3.5" > > And some early Sony 3.5" drives turn at 600 rpm, > using twice the normal > data rate. But they have a different interface > pinout as well, so > you're unlikely to see them in a PC. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 6 17:10:31 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:10:31 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: References: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Jun 6, 2007, at 10:49 AM, Mark KAHRS wrote: > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now > and then. > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? I don't collect them, but I have a huge number of them, and I use them pretty much every day. I've purchased a lot of older ones on eBay and happily paid Real Money for them. That really cheeses me off because vendors give them away for free, but if I need the data, I need the data. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 6 18:17:10 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:17:10 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <4666A5B5.2555.1FD58E0D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> > There are some NEC and Mitsubishi 3.5" drives that have a fair number > of additional signals on the odd-numbered connector pin side--usually > used on CNC and some lab equipment on 9801-series architectures. > When replacing these, we've found that any old 3.5" drive won't do-- > an exact replacement is necessary. I guess I should have been more specific... the information I posted was specifically about the setup you are likely to find in PC drives. There are lots of variations in possible drive types if you open up to "anything", but I didn't (and still don't) feel that discussing all the things you are not likely to see on a PC would make the water any less muddy for those guys who are trying to figure out what they need to do to characterize their PC FDC. > I'm surprised no one mentioned 3.5" DSED testing. Neither TESTFDC nor IMD support ED, simply because I don't have an ED compatible drive - I don't think I've ever run across one. If I can't test it, I can't reliably implement it (anyone want to send me a drive? :-) I also don't find ED very relevant to archiving vintage computer diskette images - are there any systems in need of such attention that use ED as their standard disk format? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 6 18:17:10 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:17:10 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706062219.l56MJcR8029991@hosting.monisys.ca> > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. > > Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives at 360RPM. That > enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" Well... I hoped it would be obvious, but that discussion was specifically about what you are likely to find on a PC - I have never encountered a 3.5" drive on a PC that runs at anything other than 300 rpm (although I fully agree that such a thing could have been done - but I don't think you are very likely to run across one). I saw no value in expounding on all the things you won't have to deal with with TESTFDC - just the ones you are likely to find. I did say "Almost all" for 5.25" HD drives and 360rpm, because I have found references to dual speed drive implementations on PC compatible machines, although I don't think I have personally encountered one. > That was a good, through explanation. Thanks. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 6 17:12:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 23:12:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: from "Mark KAHRS" at Jun 6, 7 10:49:42 am Message-ID: > > > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now > and then. > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? I don't collect them, I use them :-) I find a paper databook/datasheet to be a lot easier to refer to than a document on the web. Sure the web archives are useful when I can't get the data any other way (nad many times they have provided data on chips not in the _large_ collection of databooks here), but I am still keeping said databooks. AS is well know, I do a lot of reapirs on older computer hardware, and it's a lot easier when you know what the chips are and what signals to expect on the pins :-) -tony From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jun 6 16:43:08 2007 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seattle Spring Cleaning In-Reply-To: <4666B446.3050109@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: I'll be going through a bunch of boxes of computer stuff stored in my garage and an external storage facility over the next week (or month, or year).... I'm on Bainbridge Island. Anybody in Seattle or Kitsap county want to help? You'll get to take home a bunch of crap I don't want, and you may even get to take some prize collectibles I do want (as a bribe to get you to take some crap I don't want). Some of these boxes haven't been opened in 10 years. Everything from PC crap to S-100 stuff to obscure and interesting stuff. Locals only. I don't want to disapoint somebody flying in from Amsterdam or someplace. And I'm not interested in shipping anything at this point. Random examples found in two boxes opened today: 8" floppy drive, Apple eMate, couple Apple Duo Docks, 486 mobo, HP 110 laptop, internal printer for HP Integral, a bunch of barcode scanners, etc. Cheers, Doug From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 18:03:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:03:27 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca>, <4666A5B5.2555.1FD58E0D@cclist.sydex.com>, <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4666DACF.31381.20A4FB18@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2007 at 18:17, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I also don't find ED very relevant to archiving vintage computer diskette > images - are there any systems in need of such attention that use ED as > their standard disk format? I do have a few IBM PS/2 distros on ED. I am aware of a few companies selling into the PS/2 market for whom 2.88M was the distribution medium. The Teac drive that will handles these in either media-sense or host-specified mode is the FD-235J. IBM used (IIRC) host-side density control on much of the PS/2 line, so you *could* format anything from 720K to 2.88M on a plain-Jane DS2D disk. Maybe the result wasn't entirely reliable, but it could be done. The "right" media is a barium ferrite formulation and has the density aperture closer to the bottom edge of the disk than do the DSHD diskettes. If you stick one of these things in a 1.44MB-only drive, it appears as a DS2D. As far as "PC drives", those Mitsubishi/NEC 360RPM drives ran MS-DOS 2.10 on their host system (the flavor is sometimes called "DOS-V"). Diskettes were generally formatted as 8x2x1024x77 or 8x2x1024x80; some of the CP/M formats used 256-byte sectors. Even Windows NT running on a 9801 supported that format--as does (in read-only mode) Windows XP/2000 today. As far as Microsoft back in the day was concerned, the 9801 platform was a PC, just not a "Western" PC. At one time, the 9801 platform owned something like 70% of the PC market in Japan. Hope I got this all correct. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 6 18:18:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 16:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070606161812.A17952@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I also don't find ED very relevant to archiving vintage computer diskette > images - are there any systems in need of such attention that use ED as > their standard disk format? early NeXT? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 6 18:18:36 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 00:18:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <233309.29562.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yes the video is still up. Pretty neat machine. Must take hours to scan the book, but I guess it is faster than doing it all manually. Gives you time to sit back and have a cup of tea/coffee/cocoa while it does all the work :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Chris M wrote: how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. There's also the automated page flipper type thing. I had a particular design in mind, then I saw this, and it was even better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRPZm3pyC4o No, that's not the original page I found several months ago, and I don't feel like looking for it (if it's still up). But that's the very one a Japanese dude built. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 18:25:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 16:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <233309.29562.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <426250.85808.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> that mechanism was a bit slow it seems. Though time is irrelevant - you could set the thing to running, then go to bed even. --- Andrew Burton wrote: > > Yes the video is still up. > > Pretty neat machine. Must take hours to scan the > book, but I guess it is faster than doing it all > manually. Gives you time to sit back and have a cup > of tea/coffee/cocoa while it does all the work :) > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > Chris M wrote: how about a > sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? > Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them > in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. > There's also the automated page flipper type thing. > I > had a particular design in mind, then I saw this, > and > it was even better: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRPZm3pyC4o > > No, that's not the original page I found several > months ago, and I don't feel like looking for it (if > it's still up). But that's the very one a Japanese > dude built. > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jun 6 19:11:09 2007 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 17:11:09 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606161812.A17952@shell.lmi.net> (Fred Cisin's message of "Wed\, 6 Jun 2007 16\:18\:38 -0700 \(PDT\)") References: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070606161812.A17952@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200706070011.l570B9HA011970@lots.reanimators.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I also don't find ED very relevant to archiving vintage computer diskette >> images - are there any systems in need of such attention that use ED as >> their standard disk format? > > early NeXT? The *early* NeXT standard disk format was 256MB magneto-optical. ED stiffies came later. -Frank McConnell From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 6 19:45:41 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 17:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706070011.l570B9HA011970@lots.reanimators.org> References: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070606161812.A17952@shell.lmi.net> <200706070011.l570B9HA011970@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <20070606172905.V17952@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Frank McConnell wrote: > The *early* NeXT standard disk format was 256MB magneto-optical. > ED stiffies came later. Ah, yes. Thanks for the correction. NeXT called the ED's "4Meg", which was the unformmated capacity. IBM called them 2.88M, which is the formatted capacity when using a bogus definition of megabyte. (80 * 2 * 36 * 512) The dividing line between regular and obscure systems is not always clear. Some people claim that dual speed 1.2 was as common as 360RPM. Outside of the USA, 360RPM 3.5" wasn't as rare. 2.8M was popular in some niche markets, along with 20M floptical, LS120, Kodak/Drivetec 6? M, 12M? 5.25", Weltec 180RPM 1.2M with 250K data transfer rate, etc. 'course some of those drives used on PC's were not a "normal" SA400 style interface, including parallel port interfaces, and some used SCSI. And, of course, there are some with special harware that hardly ever were on PC's, such as hard-sectored, 2.5", etc. If this ever does make it to a website write-up, it should cover the "normal" ones, and have a paragraph listing the obscure and bizarre. That way, people with "non-standard" setups won't be excluded. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Jun 6 20:09:43 2007 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:09:43 -0700 Subject: Apple II Message-ID: <000b01c7a8a0$8d66b260$6601a8c0@downstairs2> There are various news stories about the 30th anniversary of the Apple II computer. My favorite story is that I had Apple II serial number 2 for evaluation. At the time I was working at a computer store in San Mateo, California. The owner, Chet Harris, when down to the Apple factory one Saturday in June of 1977 and came back with the first two completed units. (This must have been June 4.) He had sold serial number 1 to a friend of his and I got serial number 2. After a few weeks the power supply failed and it was sent back to Apple. Jef Raskin ended up with this unit. You can read about it here: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Apple/allied_computer.htm Apple started selling the Apple II boards around April of 1977. They were having problems with the plastic case, the early production units did not have the vents on the side. You can see that in the picture of serial number 2. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Apple/Jef_Raskin_Apple.jpg A customer at the store, Bill Kelly, was doing the advertising campaign for Apple and he got a prototype Apple II board. I built a linear power supply for it and traded it to him for an Intel SDK-80 board. Here is his web site: http://www.kelleyad.com/Histry.htm Here is a page that shows the my SDK-80 board. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Homebrew/Homebrew.htm Even though I went to the Homebrew Computer club, looked at the Apple I, and I had use of a Apple II; I have never owned an Apple computer. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 21:08:44 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 19:08:44 -0700 Subject: More Seattle Spring Cleaning - HP 7980A / M4 9914 9-track tape drives Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706061908h7f79f857hc0e7274a9c2c5c03@mail.gmail.com> Anyone in the Seattle area looking for a 9-track tape drive project? I have one HP 7980A HPIB and two M4 9914 SCSI/Pertec drives. These are front loading / auto loading units. Unfortunately they need some work to be fully functional. The problem with both M4 units may be limited to the tach rollers not accurately rolling along with the tape motion. I had one of the M4 units working briefly a couple of months ago. If anyone local wants these let me know with a private reply. These are too big and heavy to deal with shipping. -Glen From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jun 6 22:19:11 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 04:19:11 +0100 Subject: TESTFDC usage References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca><20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> <4667247A.5030507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <005801c7a8b2$9f5a9fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > And some early Sony 3.5" drives turn at 600 rpm, using twice >the normal data rate.... I'd forgotten about those, they were used in the Apricot PC and PC/Xi. ISTR they were 70 track devices too. TTFN - Pete. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jun 6 22:49:23 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 23:49:23 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200706062349.23858.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 06 June 2007 14:18, Chris M wrote: > how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? > Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them > in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. Nope. I don't see a need to destroy the books to get that info in there... > There's also the automated page flipper type thing. I had a particular > design in mind, then I saw this, and it was even better: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRPZm3pyC4o > > No, that's not the original page I found several months ago, and I don't > feel like looking for it (if it's still up). But that's the very one a > Japanese dude built. I'll have a look some time. Other constraints apply, and I'm not gonna bore y'all with what's been going on in my life lately. > --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > On Wednesday 06 June 2007 10:49, Mark KAHRS wrote: > > > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept > > > them partly out of sentimentality and partly because I have to fix > > > stuff of that era now and then. > > > > > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are > > > woefully incomplete. > > > > > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects > > > these? > > > > (Waving...) > > > > I'm the one with the data sheet archives, too, which are by necessity a > > work in progress. Contributions of datasheets in electronic form gladly > > accepted, as are suggestions as to how I might improve the > > pages: > > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/parts-index.html > > > > I also have lots of boxes of databooks on hand here, at least until I get > > some more shelving built, and more than one flatbed scanner, but then > > there's the time factor... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jun 6 22:52:25 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 23:52:25 -0400 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706062352.25249.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 06 June 2007 15:20, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:34:37 -0500 > > From: "Dave Dunfield" > > Subject: Re: TESTFDC usage > > > > > > > > To completely test the FDC, you need to check Single, Double and > > Double/128 at each of 250, 300 and 500 kbps rates. These are > > represented in a standard PC at: > > > > 250 = 5.25 low-density drive only, 3.5" low-density diskette > > 300 = 5.25 Low-density diskette in high-density drive > > 500 = 5.25" or 2.5" high-density diskette > > > > So to check all possible data rates without a 300/360 modded drive, > > you need to run two tests - either the 5.25" LD and HD drives, or a > > 5.25" HD and 3.5" drive. > > > > ---------------------- > > > > I also wanted to do some testing but, despite our off-list > > correspondence, I'm still confused: > > > > 5.25" drive, 3.5" diskette ??? > > Either a 5.25" low density drive (and it should be obvious which type > of diskette you need to use with it) - OR - > a 3.5" low-density diskette in either type of 3.5" drive (no I am not > trying to tell you to put a 3.5" diskette into a 5.25" drive) > > > 2.5" diskette ??? > > Humm.... 5,25" or 2.5" ... obviously the 2.5 is a typo, so it must have > been either: > 5.25" or 5.25" > -or- 5.25" or 3.5" > > I wonder which one it could be... > > Basically, testing HD in either type of drive (with HD diskette) will > test 500kbps. > > > 3.5" drive - LD or HD? > > Let me try to explain it all. > > All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. > to get DD a data rate of 250kbps is used. > to get HD a data rate of 500kbps is used (HD drive only). > - When doing DD, it DOES NOT MATTER what type the 3.5" drive is, > the data rate, rotation speed and head width are all exactly the > same ... this is why 3.5" HD drives do not have the compatibility > problems with DD media sometimes observed with 5.25" HD drives. > > All 5.25" low-density drives turn at 300rpm. > to get DD a data rate of 250kbps is used. > HD is not applicable. > > Almost-All PC 5.25" high-density drives turn at 360rpm. > to get DD a data rate of 300kbps is used (note1) > to get HD a data rate of 500kbps is used (note2) > > note1: 300kbps at 360rpm works out to exactly the same bit > density as 250kbps at 300rpm - this is the "compatibility mode" > to allow single-speed 360rpm 5.25" drives to read/write DD diskettes. > > note2: The HD data rate is 500kbps on both 3.5" and 5.25" drives. The > slower 3.5" (300 rpm) drives store more bits on a track, as it takes > longer for the whole track to pass under the head. This is the reason > that 3.5" HD disks store 1.44M which 5.25" HD disks store 1.2M > > note3: 360rpm / 500kbps is electrically the same as an 8" drive, which > is why it's fairly easy to replace 8" drives with 5.25" HD drives. > > > Exactly what tests should be run with what size/density disk in what > > size/ density/speed drive in order to get a complete picture? > > When I say "drive" I mean that exact type of drive. > When I say "diskette" I mean that type of diskette, and it > does not matter which type of drive (LD or HD) it is in - obviously it > has to be the same physical format as the diskette. > > To test 250kbps rate, you need ONE of: > 3.5" drive (either type) with 3.5" LOW DENSITY diskette. > 5.25" LOW-DENSITY drive (with 5.25" LOW DENSITY diskette) > > To test 300kpbs, you need: > 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 5.25" LOW-DENSITY diskette > > To test 500kbps, you need ONE of: > 3.5" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 3.5" HIGH-DENSITY diskette. > 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY diskette. > > For most people, who have 3.5" and 5.25" HD drives, running > the full tests available for both those drive types will test > all the possible combinations (in fact it will test 500kbps > twice). > > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html So Dave, what's the deal with those oddball 5.25" drives? I'm remembering vaguely some that were 96tpi, and one (?) that was supposedly 100tpi... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dave at mitton.com Wed Jun 6 23:38:21 2007 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 00:38:21 -0400 Subject: DECnet on the 'net In-Reply-To: <200706062227.l56MR1Ou091305@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706062227.l56MR1Ou091305@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) On 6/6/2007 06:27 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:31:03 -0400 >From: "Bill Pechter" >Subject: Re: DECnet and MOP >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >On 6/6/07, der Mouse wrote: > > > > > I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. > > > > I don't suppose you have softcopies? Or that someone else has them > > available for fetch? > > > > I'd like to have a stab at implementing DECnet. (Not because I have > > any production use for it; just as part of my drive to understand > > everything - nothing teaches a protocol like implementing it.) > > > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > > \ / Ribbon Campaign > > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > >Softcopies linked to on >http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/docs/doc_index.html > >-- Great pointer. That's a copy of stuff rescued from Decwrl after Compaq took over. I'd almost forgotten all the time spent in Runoff. I'd used to say that I produced the last implementation of DECnet Phase IV in PathWORKS for Windows 95. But these guys doing the Linux DECnet have taken that away from me. http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/ If you're interested in learning how DECnet works, that implementation is freely accessible. PS: There is a Debian MOP daemon here http://packages.debian.org/unstable/net/mopd I seem to remember that there was a group of people bridging their DECnet over TCP to connect various sites over the Internet. I can't seem to find them this minute. Dave. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 7 00:07:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 22:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706062352.25249.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706062352.25249.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070606215900.G28411@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > So Dave, what's the deal with those oddball 5.25" drives? I'm remembering > vaguely some that were 96tpi, and one (?) that was supposedly 100tpi... Dave is testing the FDC, not the physical parameters of the drive. 96tpi DSDD was common briefly, but was never used in the PC, except for the PC-JX. To the disk controller, it is the same as a 3.5" "720K". Teac 55F, Shugart 465, Tandon TM100-4, Mitsubishi 4853, etc Micropolis came out with a 100tpi (77 track) 5.25" drive. It never really caught on. Tandon made a replacement drive for that - TM100-4M. With a few exceptions, the 96tpi formats cqan be done using a 1.2M drive. Teac 55FG is deliberately intende3d for both "720K" and 1.2M use. The only exceptions would be drive where the stepper switches to double stepping when in "low density" mode, or using a 250K or 300K data transfer rate. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From scheefj at aim.com Wed Jun 6 17:06:30 2007 From: scheefj at aim.com (scheefj at aim.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:06:30 -0400 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <8C9769E126A8767-530-9207@WEBMAIL-MB03.sysops.aol.com> Jules, Such an index was?called a "salesman". ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 1:17 pm Subject: DEC parts code reference? Out of interest (and to my shame, without googling first :-), did DEC (or a third party) ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" against function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.)? ? I'm trying to sort out our documentation archives, and DEC seem very good at just listing the codes as title ("DZ11-C technical manual" etc.) on a lot of their docs - meaning I have to skim pages to get a handle on what the thing actually is)? ? cheers? ? Jules? ? ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 18:38:36 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 00:38:36 +0100 Subject: DEC parts code reference? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FB4@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Guys The most useful internal document we had when I was at DEC was the Price Book. It consisted of a 250 page line printer document reduced from 15" to A3 and bound into Book format. Every saleable item was in there. There must have been a database somewhere with every item DEC sold and its part number. Im unsure but there may well have been a corporate DEC 10 in the Mill. Somebody, somewhere must have a tape backup of the price list. (Now that would be a real find!!) We never knew how the part numbers got allocated either. However the product numbers like DLV11-J tended to be generated by the Product Line And the module numbers like M7786 were of engineering origin. It makes a little more sense if you know the internal structure of DEC (yes it did have one!) Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 06 June 2007 22:28 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: DEC parts code reference? Jules Richardson wrote: > That's precisely my problem - I was spotting vague patterns earlier, > but then something would come along that just didn't fit in, and > having a few exceptions makes the whole idea of sifting things based > on part code alone rather redundant :-) DEC produced "stuff" for (just) over 40 years; naming consistency over that period is a tad tough :-) Someone sent me a copy of an Options and Modules CD set from the mid 1990s ... I think I sent it to Manx but I'm not sure how easy it would be to make available over the net. (It's not the amount of data, it's more how to present it). Antonio From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 18:58:29 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 00:58:29 +0100 Subject: My Collection Profile Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FB7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Voltage problems apart what do you have? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: 06 June 2007 18:33 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: My Collection Profile Hi Rod, I have most of the items on your wish list, but I'm in the states. Thanks, Paul On 6/5/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > The story so far: > > VAX 4000-200 x1 > > VAX 4000-300 x1 > > PDP11/94 x4 No CPU cards > > SA600 (4 x RA92) x1 > > SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 > > VT420 x3 > > VT320 x1 > > VT330 x1 > > LA75 x3 > > > > > > Of these, plus other (Non-Dec kit) for sale or swap > > (All funds to save other old DEC kit) > > PDP 11/94 (No cpu cards) x2 > > VT 420 x2 > > LA75 x2 > > HP 700 Terminal x1 > > HP 2392A Terminal x1 > > Shiva LAN Rover x1 > > Victor PC in pristine condx. X1 > > SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 > > Wish list > > PDP-8/E > > KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) x 4 Replacements for the missing 11/94 CPU > > MSV11-JE x 4 " " 11/94 Memory > > VT05 > > VT100 > > VT220 > > LA36 > > LA180 > > DELNI > > DECSA > > Rainbow > > Anything else with a DEC label I can lift and and will fit into the > car. > > Objectives > > Working Examples of PDP8 , PDP11, and VAX systems. > > DECNet Network to connect the above. > > Working Examples of VT100, VT200, VT300, VT400, and VT500 series > terminals > > Decserver 200 connecting the above to the network > > Working Examples of LA series terminals/printers > > > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 19:07:01 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 01:07:01 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FB8@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Nisc_load.exe R -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 06 June 2007 17:49 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: New DEC problem Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > Boot, well sort of. Its down loading a file from a boot server using > BOOT EZA0 (The ethernet port). > That it does OK and on the boot server it says download OK. > However it does not run the downloaded file. I may have the wrong one. If it manages to download something (and thinks that it is successful) then that sounds like a non-fatal error. What are you downloading? Antonio From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jun 7 03:23:17 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 10:23:17 +0200 Subject: DECnet on the 'net In-Reply-To: <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> References: <200706062227.l56MR1Ou091305@dewey.classiccmp.org> <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> Message-ID: <20070607102317.310bba8e@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 00:38:21 -0400 Dave Mitton wrote: > I seem to remember that there was a group of people bridging their > DECnet over TCP to connect various sites over the Internet. I can't > seem to find them this minute. http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 7 05:41:55 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:41:55 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <200706062349.23858.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <200706062349.23858.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070607104155.4DA7DBA445D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Wednesday 06 June 2007 14:18, Chris M wrote: > > how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? > > Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them > > in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. > > Nope. I don't see a need to destroy the books to get that info in there... Most databooks are printed on variable-to-poor quality paper and will not last forever anyway. If you don't want to destroy them that badly, then hopefully you will have them treated to neutralize the acid in the paper. Most such books end up "too much trouble to scan but too valuable to shear off the binding to make scanning easier" so the owner ends up throwing them away. Doug Jones has a good web page on paperback/databook type preservation: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/book/ Tim. From paul at frixxon.co.uk Thu Jun 7 05:42:16 2007 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:42:16 +0100 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: <004701c7a881$98e60f10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <004701c7a881$98e60f10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <4667E108.9060906@frixxon.co.uk> Antonio Carlini wrote: > > Someone sent me a copy of an Options and Modules CD set from the > mid 1990s ... I think I sent it to Manx but I'm not sure how > easy it would be to make available over the net. (It's not the > amount of data, it's more how to present it). A lot of the fields were the names of various managers responsible for design, production and maintenance of the parts, so Manx only shows the part number and description fields at the moment. http://vt100.net/manx/part This draft Parts section of Manx only contains DEC information so far. -- Paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 7 06:00:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:00:27 -0500 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <20070607104155.4DA7DBA445D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <200706062349.23858.rtellason@verizon.net> <20070607104155.4DA7DBA445D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4667E54B.5000506@yahoo.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: >> On Wednesday 06 June 2007 14:18, Chris M wrote: >>> how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? >>> Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them >>> in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. >> Nope. I don't see a need to destroy the books to get that info in there... > > Most databooks are printed on variable-to-poor quality paper and > will not last forever anyway. If you don't want to destroy them that > badly, then hopefully you will have them treated to neutralize the > acid in the paper. What sort of timescale is 'forever'? We've got numerous ones dating back to the 70s which are showing no real signs of decay *yet*. The shiny, ultra-thin paper often found in databooks actually seems to fare better than coarser "book" type paper in my experience. I'm not sure why - maybe it's more resistant to absorbing moisture from the air or something. I hauled about 20ft of databooks into our workshop just the other week which can go on the shelves - unfortunately a lot of it's early transistor stuff rather than ICs, which is perhaps less useful: the majority of our transistorised big iron has a healthy spare components cache and will document the components anyway; later databooks would be more handy as a reference for IC-populated machines, as in most cases they're a lot smaller and don't come with a big cache of spares. cheers Jules From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 7 08:10:13 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 08:10:13 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706062352.25249.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> > So Dave, what's the deal with those oddball 5.25" drives? I'm remembering > vaguely some that were 96tpi, and one (?) that was supposedly 100tpi... The commonly found 5.25" drives are: A: Single-Sided, 35 track, 48 tpi (original SA400) B: Single-Sided, 40 track, 48 tpi (SA400L and others) C: Double-sided, 40 track, 48 tpi (SA450, TM-100-2, TEAC55B, etc.) D: Double-sided, 80 track, 96 tpi (SA460, TM-100-4 TEAC55F, etc.) E: Double-sided, 80 track, 96 tpi, High Density (TEAC55G, Pan JU-475 etc.) Less common, but I've run into a couple are: F: Single-Sided, 80 track, 96 tpi (can't think of any models) Still (much) less common are: G: Double-Sided, 77 track, 100tpi (TM-100-4M) A, B and C are compatible within the areas that they overlap, ie: C can read/write B and A, and B can read/write A D and F are compitible within the areas that they overlap (ie, side1), and can be "mostly" compatible with A, B and C within the areas that they overlap by double-stepping (ie: the even 96tpi tracks line up with the 48tpi drive tracks. There is an issue with the head being "thinner" which can cause some incompatibilities when disks are written on a 48 tpi drive, then re-written on a 96tpi drive, and then read on a 48 tpi drive - this is due to remanents of the original pattern remaining at the edges after a thinner track is laid down by the 96tpi drive head causing confusion when it's read back with the wider 48tpi drive head. E can be compatible with D and F within the areas that they overlap provided it is run at low-density and 300rpm, or 360rpm with a modified data rate. It can also be compatible with A, B and C by the use of double stepping. G is incompatible with all others, because the 100 tpi tracks have a different spacing and therefore you cannot position the head over all tracks of a 48 or 96 tpi written diskette. Make sense? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 7 08:31:29 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 08:31:29 -0500 Subject: DECnet on the 'net In-Reply-To: <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <200706062227.l56MR1Ou091305@dewey.classiccmp.org> <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070607082415.06b24eb0@mail> At 11:38 PM 6/6/2007, Dave Mitton wrote: >I'd used to say that I produced the last implementation of DECnet Phase IV in PathWORKS for Windows 95. >But these guys doing the Linux DECnet have taken that away from me. >http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/ Circa 1991, my company made and sold a version of DECnet for the Amiga, a licensed port of a Mac DECnet called TSSnet from Thursby Software. Thursby's was originally written in Mac Pascal. We ported that to C on top of the Amiga's SANA II network stack, which allowed you to run other network stacks like TCP/IP at the same time. It worked with X Window and included NCP, Netmail (which I wrote from scratch), network file copy and file access listener. - John From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jun 7 10:06:33 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 08:06:33 -0700 Subject: DECnet on the 'net In-Reply-To: <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <002501c7a915$6fedeee0$1401010a@Rhyme> > I seem to remember that there was a group of people bridging their > DECnet over TCP to connect various sites over the Internet. I can't > seem to find them this minute. It's called HECnet (don't blame me - I didn't think of that name :-) We've got several dozen machines at a dozen or so locations around the world connected, and we're happy to have more join. To connect, you'll need either - A VAX running OVMS and Multinet (they have a hobbyist license, and also a DECnet-over-IP implementation). If you have multiple local DECnet machines and your VAX is a DECnet router, then they can all play with this one gateway. Or - A Un*x box of some variety running Johnny's DECNet bridge program. In this case the Un*x box is in addition to whatever other DECnet machines you have on your local network. You'll also need an Internet connection (of course), and a _static_ IP. Contact me off the list if you're interested in connecting and I'll point you in the right direction. Bob Armstrong From wulfcub at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 11:09:00 2007 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:09:00 -0500 Subject: DEC H775-BA and H3213-3400 in Kansas Message-ID: While cleaning out a storage area (indoors), I found an H3213-3400 psu and an H775-BA remote battery backup unit. As I recall, these both came out of a Xerox 9700 controller cabinet, and the H3213 worked when we last fired it up. The BBU hasn't had a battery pack on it in at least 11 years (as long as I've been with the company), so I have no idea whether or not it works. They're both free for the taking. Pick them up, or arrange to have them shipped. Both are fairly heavy and the 3213 is rather large. Located in Wichita, Ks. May trade for C= 128 gear. Thanks! --Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 7 11:49:44 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 12:49:44 -0400 Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio Message-ID: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> here's a neat I device i don't recall ever hearing about... http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/07/forgotten_tech_atari_portfolio/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 7 11:50:44 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 09:50:44 -0700 Subject: DECnet on the 'net In-Reply-To: <002501c7a915$6fedeee0$1401010a@Rhyme> References: <002501c7a915$6fedeee0$1401010a@Rhyme> Message-ID: At 8:06 AM -0700 6/7/07, Robert Armstrong wrote: > - A VAX running OVMS and Multinet (they have a hobbyist license, and also a >DECnet-over-IP implementation). If you have multiple local DECnet machines >and your VAX is a DECnet router, then they can all play with this one >gateway. And I just discovered an interesting "problem" with Multinet, it appears to work with the license expired until you reboot. My site is currently off-line as I'd taken my router down due to thunderstorms. Now I have the fun of getting my licenses sorted out. Here is a dated map of HECnet. http://www.tholian.demon.co.uk/HECnet/dcnmap.html If my site was online, the following would work, as it is, it will only report on my two nodes. http://www.avanthar.com:8080/nodes/ Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 7 12:02:13 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 10:02:13 -0700 Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio In-Reply-To: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> References: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: At 12:49 PM -0400 6/7/07, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > here's a neat I device i don't recall ever hearing about... >http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/07/forgotten_tech_atari_portfolio/ I so wanted one of those when they came out! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From evan at snarc.net Thu Jun 7 12:04:34 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 13:04:34 -0400 Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio In-Reply-To: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <004701c7a925$eccde8b0$6401a8c0@evan> The Portfolio really isn't very rare. Easily obtained, plenty of good support on the web. It was a peer of other late-1980s clamshells such as the HP-95, Poqet/Fujitsu, Sharp PC-3000, etc. ... actually the Portfolio's major claim to fame was an appearance in the movie "Terminator 2". -----Original Message----- From: Dave Woyciesjes [mailto:woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net] Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:50 PM To: ClassicCMP Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio here's a neat I device i don't recall ever hearing about... http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/07/forgotten_tech_atari_portfolio/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 7 12:36:57 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 10:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Govliq HP alignment pack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <942133.14084.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> HP SERVO ALIGNMENT KIT for some type of HP cartridge drive. http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1239372&categoryId=1004 Bob From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jun 7 13:05:11 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 14:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Govliq HP alignment pack In-Reply-To: <942133.14084.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <942133.14084.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > HP SERVO ALIGNMENT KIT for some type of HP cartridge drive. > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1239372&categoryId=1004 According to the manual, that's a servo reformatting kit for the 7906 drive: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/hp/disc/07906-90905_CE_Jul84.pdf Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From alhartman at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 13:08:12 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio Message-ID: <17239.74369.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> > From: Dave Woyciesjes > > here's a neat I device i don't recall ever hearing about... > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/07/forgotten_tech_atari_portfolio/ ===================================== I had one of these beasties... It was pretty nice. I traded it away about 10 years ago for a Apple IIC with Display. I always wanted one of the Poquets. They looked like useful devices. Al Phila, PA From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 7 13:47:57 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:47:57 -0400 Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio In-Reply-To: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> References: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <466852DD.1040800@atarimuseum.com> I bought one when it first came out. I was working for NYNEX Business Information Systems at the time, I used to track my appointments, and the cool thing was it had a speaker on the back and you could autodial numbers, so I'd use it at payphones to dial a client and let them know I'd be at their site for computer work and an approx. time. A cool peripherals was the card interface for a PC, it was an ISA board to an external expansion box with a card reader/writer on it and it made moving data to/from a PC as easy as USB thumbdrives are today. A couple of companies had HD's and other expansions for the unit. In 1999 I was contacted by a lot of commercial HVAC vendors, apparently the Portfolios were being used a controllers for HVAC's, rather interesting. One of the coolest parts of the Portfolio was Atari's Introduction, like Apple did with its full page ad's in the newspapers, Atari did a big spread in the Wall Street Journal newspaper for the Intro of the Portfolio. Great little computers, for more info, see here: http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/pccomputers/portfolio.html Curt Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > here's a neat I device i don't recall ever hearing about... > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/07/forgotten_tech_atari_portfolio/ > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 7 14:04:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 12:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070607120103.V60113@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > F: Single-Sided, 80 track, 96 tpi (can't think of any models) TM100-3 What does DEC use for that? > Still (much) less common are: > G: Double-Sided, 77 track, 100tpi (TM-100-4M) which existed primarily as a replacement for the Micropolis 100tpi. The Micropolis 5.25" drives were very reliable, but used a helical lead screw, which made them kinda slow. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 7 14:22:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 12:22:16 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070607120103.V60113@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca>, <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca>, <20070607120103.V60113@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4667F878.23378.2500D40F@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jun 2007 at 12:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Still (much) less common are: > > G: Double-Sided, 77 track, 100tpi (TM-100-4M) > which existed primarily as a replacement for the Micropolis 100tpi. > The Micropolis 5.25" drives were very reliable, but used a helical lead > screw, which made them kinda slow. Let's not forget single-sided 77 track 100 tpi (Micropolis 1015 and 1016). In construction, the antithesis of the SA-400. Built like a brick latrine. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 7 14:37:48 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 12:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio In-Reply-To: <466852DD.1040800@atarimuseum.com> References: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> <466852DD.1040800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20070607123216.V60113@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > A cool > peripherals was the card interface for a PC, it was an ISA board to an > external expansion box with a card reader/writer on it and it made > moving data to/from a PC as easy as USB thumbdrives are today. There were also [somewhat bulky] snap-on expansion blocks for serial and for parallel. It used a third party imitation of MS-DOS. But it was pretty compatible, even with many of the undocumented MS-DOS items - I was able to walk the memory control block chain, etc. I used to run DeSmet C on a 128K card. The card was NOT PCMCIA. It was one of many that fell by the wayside when PCMCIA ("People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms") got standardized. (Poqet used pre-standard PCMCIA) It could be unfolded flat, and the hinges were sturdy. (Poqet hinges were inadequate) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From futte at sygnok.dk Thu Jun 7 10:41:50 2007 From: futte at sygnok.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Lauridsen?=) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 17:41:50 +0200 Subject: IBM ps/2 P70 Plasma screen voltages Message-ID: <20070607154150.84F871911FBC2@csmtp1.b-one.net> Hello Thomas I found an old forum where you were asking about the power connector pinout for the IBM Plasma Display 38F4744 from an IBM P70 computer. I hope you found the pinout because i really hope you stille have it, and would like to send it to me? I also hope that you have the pinout for the 26 pins data connector? Hope you can help me!! >From S?ren Lauridsen, Denmark From blakespot at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 11:59:37 2007 From: blakespot at gmail.com (Blake Patterson) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 12:59:37 -0400 Subject: Original Mac 128 (M0001) selling Message-ID: <4b7d63a40706070959u2fb36146r5c73635e3ac64b8f@mail.gmail.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120129551212 If anyone interested, FYI. bp -- Heisenberg may have slept here. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 7 15:38:14 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 21:38:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio In-Reply-To: <004701c7a925$eccde8b0$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <850023.74696.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Wasn't it used to by young John Connor to hack into the ATM machine? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Evan Koblentz wrote: The Portfolio really isn't very rare. Easily obtained, plenty of good support on the web. It was a peer of other late-1980s clamshells such as the HP-95, Poqet/Fujitsu, Sharp PC-3000, etc. ... actually the Portfolio's major claim to fame was an appearance in the movie "Terminator 2". From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 7 16:53:54 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 16:53:54 -0500 Subject: Govliq HP alignment pack References: <942133.14084.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001401c7a94e$5a1c3610$6500a8c0@BILLING> Bob wrote.... >> HP SERVO ALIGNMENT KIT for some type of HP cartridge drive. >> >> http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1239372&categoryId=1004 To which Mike replied... > According to the manual, that's a servo reformatting kit for the 7906 > drive: > > http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/hp/disc/07906-90905_CE_Jul84.pdf All I see in the case at least is the pack. Is it a head alignment pack or a servo reference pack (they are different animals)? Perhaps the other required items are underneath? Just a pack won't rewrite your servo data on a 7905/7906 drive. You need a special servo formatting head (and temporarily replace head 0), the servo formatting pca, and a special head alignment preamp pca. To "do it right", there's some special hand tools required, the degauser, and the DSU. In addition, there are several other things that are "as long has you have it torn apart you really should do" items. I did get a complete toolkit in an aircraft aluminum case that includes all the stuff above, and it definitely contained things that aren't in the pictured case (or at least I'd be hard pressed to imagine them fitting in the above case). Maybe it's just the cartridge. Or maybe it's a much fatter case than mine and the stuff is stacked under the cartridge. I dunno. Jay From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 7 16:56:42 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 22:56:42 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <001001c7a94e$bd4ad610$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I >find I get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens >as compared to CRTs. Well, the last two CRTs I bought are flat-screen so I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at. The biggest problems with LCD panels are colour registration, black level/contrast and response time. Even with top of the range panels, their comparatively slow response time leads to very noticable blurring when things move around on the screen - and I'm not talking about games here, I find this blurring totally unacceptable even when scrolling text windows, etc. And the colour/contrast/black level problems are a total show stopper when I'm dealing with video.... > I don't know whether this just means every CRT I've used has been crap, >or perhaps I *am* "profoundly blind", but even if so, in my experience >the comparison stands. I wouldn't have thought so, IME even the cheapest/crappest CRT is head and shoulders above even the most expensive LCD panel. It all depends what your expectations are.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 7 17:08:54 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 23:08:54 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4666B7EC.6030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001501c7a950$7041d970$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....but the difference is very quickly going away. It won't be >long before there's effectively none.... Ah, but how long before *cheap* (sub ?130) LCD monitors reach that level of performance? Considering how cheaply CRT monitors can be had now, e.g. this 17" Hansol I'm using now cost me just ?20 brand new, I'm not prepared to pay more than ?100ish for *any* LCD monitor. >....also have easily higher resolution than a flat panel of similar >size.... Not to mention that using an LCD flat panel at anything other than it's native resolution causes all sorts of horrible atrifacting problems - which is currently the second biggest problem with LCD TV sets (the biggest being the unreliability of the back-lighting). >....But the flat panels use *soo* much less power. Ah, but they also take up *SO* much less space....this 17" CRT I'm using now is huge, and my 21" monitor is so big I can't currently use it thanks to space constraints. :-( TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 7 17:14:07 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 23:14:07 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available References: Message-ID: <002c01c7a951$2ab55340$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Check out Advanced Circuits www.4pcb.com Just out of interest, are there any similar cheap PCB manufacturing companies in the UK? TTFN - Pete. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 7 17:43:20 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 16:43:20 -0600 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <002c01c7a951$2ab55340$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <002c01c7a951$2ab55340$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46688A08.4070405@jetnet.ab.ca> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > Just out of interest, are there any similar cheap PCB manufacturing > companies in the UK? I think the concept *cheap labor* is why you have cheap PCB manufacturing. Does "Electronics and Wireless World" have somebody doing PCB's for them? I remember a lot of good projects but very little about the PCB's and stuff when I could get it in Canada. > TTFN - Pete. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 7 17:27:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 23:27:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <005801c7a8b2$9f5a9fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jun 7, 7 04:19:11 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > And some early Sony 3.5" drives turn at 600 rpm, using twice > >the normal data rate.... > > I'd forgotten about those, they were used in the Apricot PC and PC/Xi. ISTR > they were 70 track devices too. HP used them _a lot_, bot hthe signle-head and double-head versions. AFAIK they were actually 80 cylinder drives, with the normal 135tpi spacing. Certainly on the double-head ones, HP formatted 77 user cylinders, the last 3 were reserved for replacements for bad blocks, the bad block map, etc. There as a later Sony drive, also 600rpm, that HP put in the 9114B and, IIRC, 9153. This is a half-height unit, with many parts in common with the Apple 800K drive (head carriage, stepper motor, motor control ICs, analogue ASIC, etc). The version that HP used has a single 34 pin conenctor, pinout very similar to an SA400 (and thus a PC drive), but with power on some of the odd-numbered pins. But from the scheamtics, it's clear that moving soldered links would make all those odd-numbered pins ground, and there is a place on the PCB for a normal 4 pin power connector. Be warned that the oldder, full-height models have a nasty problem. The grease on the eject mechanusm goes hard with age, and this then doesn't latch properly,. On a double-head drive, the upper head can then get caught in the disk shutter when you eject the disk. It's possible to rip the head right off the gimbal spring. If you have one of the older drives, you might want to look for the recent articles about erparing the HP9114 drive on the forum at http://www.hpmuseum.org . There's a link from one of them to a document on repairing the 9114, the last part of that docuemnt is an article I wrote on taking the drive apart and cleaning off the grease. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 7 17:58:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:58:48 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: References: <005801c7a8b2$9f5a9fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jun 7, 7 04:19:11 am, Message-ID: <46682B38.29615.25C70E95@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jun 2007 at 23:27, Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK they were actually 80 cylinder drives, with the normal 135tpi > spacing. Certainly on the double-head ones, HP formatted 77 user > cylinders, the last 3 were reserved for replacements for bad blocks, the > bad block map, etc. ...and there were also the 300 RPM 40 cylinder 3.5" DS2D drives at 67.5 tpi, used on a few CP/M systems as well as many inexpensive word processors. There were also some 600 RPM Sony 67.5 tpi SS drives. I think the Preis boxes used them. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 7 18:08:32 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 16:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <46682B38.29615.25C70E95@cclist.sydex.com> References: <005801c7a8b2$9f5a9fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jun 7, 7 04:19:11 am, <46682B38.29615.25C70E95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070607160728.O69592@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and there were also the 300 RPM 40 cylinder 3.5" DS2D drives at > 67.5 tpi, used on a few CP/M systems as well as many inexpensive word > processors. used by the Epson Geneva/PX8 > There were also some 600 RPM Sony 67.5 tpi SS drives. I think the > Preis boxes used them. . . . and what was in the Tandy portable disk drive #1 for the model 100? From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Jun 7 18:29:00 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 7 Jun 2007 16:29:00 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <1181258940.466894bc45359@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Dave Dunfield : -snip- > Less common, but I've run into a couple are: > > F: Single-Sided, 80 track, 96 tpi (can't think of any models) -Again SNIP- I'm pretty sure that the RX-50 falls into this category From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jun 7 18:38:34 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 16:38:34 -0700 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? Message-ID: > > The shiny, ultra-thin paper often found in databooks actually seems to > fare > better than coarser "book" type paper in my experience. I'm not sure > why - > maybe it's more resistant to absorbing moisture from the air or > something. > Moisture is a problem only if it's really high (mold predominantly, although sizing can soften and stick pages together). The big problem with many paperbacks is the so-called "high acid" paper with appreciable quantities of lignin in it - the lignin changes into acid and causes the paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, crumbling paperbacks... I'm not sure what the paper of choice for databooks is, generally if a book uses sized bond paper it's not at highest risk, but for the most part wood paper made before the '80s will have some degree of risk (and more modern papers that are not acid-free archival grade). LOC (Library of Congress) has a fairly large group devoted to this problem, and a process fior neutralization that works pretty well (although if you do it wrong or make a mistake stuff bursts into flame). They point out that it is "not recommended for those who are not professionals". From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 7 18:52:41 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 16:52:41 -0700 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? Message-ID: <46689A49.9060301@bitsavers.org> General book conservation techniques can be found here http://www.philobiblon.com/gbwarticle/gbwjournalarticle.htm My personal preference is to debind and scan. National and AMD data books used very low grade paper, as did the people who produced IC Masters. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 7 19:06:20 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:06:20 -0600 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Quinn wrote: > Moisture is a problem only if it's really high (mold predominantly, > although sizing can soften and stick pages together). The big problem > with many paperbacks is the so-called "high acid" paper with appreciable > quantities of lignin in it - the lignin changes into acid and causes the > paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, crumbling paperbacks... Umm ... DEC's paperbacks. > I'm not sure what the paper of choice for databooks is, generally if a > book uses sized bond paper it's not at highest risk, but for the most > part wood paper made before the '80s will have some degree of risk (and > more modern papers that are not acid-free archival grade). So can anything be done for them? > LOC (Library of Congress) has a fairly large group devoted to this > problem, and a process fior neutralization that works pretty well > (although if you do it wrong or make a mistake stuff bursts into flame). > They point out that it is "not recommended for those who are not > professionals". > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 19:45:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 17:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mindset schematics Message-ID: <889036.75310.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> A long shot I know, but does anyone have any service docs for these things? I tentatively have 6 at the moment! and of the lot only 1 works. Oi. Halp. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From jrr at flippers.com Thu Jun 7 19:20:51 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 17:20:51 -0700 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 6:06 PM -0600 6/7/07, woodelf wrote: >Scott Quinn wrote: > >>Moisture is a problem only if it's really high (mold predominantly, >>although sizing can soften and stick pages together). The big >>problem with many paperbacks is the so-called "high acid" paper >>with appreciable quantities of lignin in it - the lignin changes >>into acid and causes the paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, >>crumbling paperbacks... > >Umm ... DEC's paperbacks. > >>I'm not sure what the paper of choice for databooks is, generally >>if a book uses sized bond paper it's not at highest risk, but for >>the most part wood paper made before the '80s will have some degree >>of risk (and more modern papers that are not acid-free archival >>grade). > >So can anything be done for them? One thing you can do is store the books in tightly sealed plastic bags - the browning on the paper is caused by oxygen in the air...the pages are actually oxidizing slooooowwwwllllly (very slow fire). Check with your local public library for suggestions on how to protect old paper - you can make a base solution mixture for misting the pages to neutralize the remaining acid in the paper. John :-#)# > >>LOC (Library of Congress) has a fairly large group devoted to this >>problem, and a process fior neutralization that works pretty well >>(although if you do it wrong or make a mistake stuff bursts into >>flame). They point out that it is "not recommended for those who >>are not professionals". From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Jun 7 21:01:29 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 03:01:29 +0100 Subject: DSSI Terminators (12-29258-01) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FC4@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi As suspected the 5C error code during self test on my VAX 4000-300 is the missing DSSI Terminators. So.. Does anybody have spare, or know where I can get two of DEC Part number 12-29258-01 (DSSI Terminators) Rod Smallwood The DecCollector. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jun 8 02:20:04 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 09:20:04 +0200 Subject: DataGeneral documentation Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848845A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, I have put up for auction on eBay a stack of 6 inches of DataGeneral (micro) NOVA documentation. The item number is 170120175007 in case you are interested (shameless plug), but the other reason I would like to mention this auction here, is that if you are not looking for the original sheets of paper (as a DG collector), but you only want the printed information, you do not need to place a bid! I have scanned the whole pile and will send it to bitsavers (> 500 MB). thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 8 02:03:11 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 03:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <001001c7a94e$bd4ad610$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <001001c7a94e$bd4ad610$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706080735.DAA15963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I find I >> get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens as >> compared to CRTs. > Well, the last two CRTs I bought are flat-screen so I'm not sure > exactly what you're getting at. By "flat-screen" I mean something like "display with width and height significantly greater than front-to-back depth", not "display with physically flat viewing surface"; furthermore, from context, I don't think it's all that great a stretch to also read it as "...as contrasted with CRTs, and therefore not including CRTs", which I did mean (while I understand CRTs that fit that description do exist, they are quite rare). Perhaps I should call them "flat panel" instead. I don't know whether the displays I'm talking about are LCDs, plasma, TFT, LED, or what - for all I know some of those are susbets of others, even. > The biggest problems with LCD panels are colour registration, black > level/contrast and response time. I don't know what kind of flat-panel technology I'm talking about. But I not so very long ago paid about $200 for a brand-new 1280x1024 flat panel that is substantially better, to my eye, than any CRT I would expect to get for a comparable amount of money. Possibly it's not LCD; I don't know. (It's an Acer AL1716B. I've also used a Dell something-or-other at work, and find it comparable.) In my experience, flat panels are roughly on a par with CRTs for colour registration. (I'm perfectly willing to believe this means the CRTs I've used need adjustment, but it's still true.) Black level is mildly annoying, but only very mildly - and I'm totally willing to put up with it for the sake of crisp pixel edges and no fading of thin vertical lines (each of which has been a near-universal problems with CRTs in my experience). Response time is not really an issue for me. They've got it down under 10ms, and with a vertical retrace rate of 76Hz (I just checked, that's what I'm using), there's no point worrying about differences under about 13ms (1000ms/76). > Even with top of the range panels, their comparatively slow response > time leads to very noticable blurring when things move around on the > screen - and I'm not talking about games here, I find this blurring > totally unacceptable even when scrolling text windows, etc. I find it no worse than the blurring from phosphor persistence on CRTs. (For relatively recent panels, that is, such as the ones I bought. I've got a couple of old machines with built-in flat-panel displays with substantially worse persistence issues.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 8 02:52:32 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 08:52:32 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:14:07 BST." <002c01c7a951$2ab55340$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706080752.IAA00913@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Ensor" said: > Hi, > > > Check out Advanced Circuits www.4pcb.com > > Just out of interest, are there any similar cheap PCB manufacturing > companies in the UK? http://www.pcb-pool.com http://www.pcb-value.co.uk http://www.rak.co.uk http://www.pcbtrain.com adinfo at agarcircuits.com I can't comment on the quality of their services, I just happened to have a magazine on the desk with their adverts in. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cc at corti-net.de Fri Jun 8 03:20:28 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 10:20:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070607120103.V60113@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070607120103.V60113@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >> F: Single-Sided, 80 track, 96 tpi (can't think of any models) > TM100-3 And TEAC FD-55E (I have two of them, coming from an old Tandem front-end console system). Christian From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Jun 8 06:03:14 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:03:14 +0200 Subject: DataGeneral documentation In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848845A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848845A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <46693772.3070109@bluewin.ch> > information, you do not need to place a bid! I have scanned > the whole pile and will send it to bitsavers (> 500 MB). > > thanks, > - Henk. > Alvast bedankt Henk ! Does it cover the MP/200 ? Jos From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jun 8 06:10:32 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 13:10:32 +0200 Subject: DataGeneral documentation In-Reply-To: <46693772.3070109@bluewin.ch> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848845A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <46693772.3070109@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848845D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos > Dreesen / Marian Capel > Sent: vrijdag 8 juni 2007 13:03 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DataGeneral documentation > > > information, you do not need to place a bid! I have > scanned the whole > > pile and will send it to bitsavers (> 500 MB). > > > > thanks, > > - Henk. > > > > Alvast bedankt Henk ! > > Does it cover the MP/200 ? > > Jos > > Can not remember that. AFAIK, it is NOVA stuff and peripherals only. I can send an e-mail (privately) with a list of the titles and document numbers. The zip file is 3k. groeten, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 8 06:18:05 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 07:18:05 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070608111805.23BD8BA4463@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> woodelf wrote: > > quantities of lignin in it - the lignin changes into acid and causes the > > paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, crumbling paperbacks... > > Umm ... DEC's paperbacks. And putting on the wayback machine, this is what Doug Jones was doing in the previous millenium to preserve the early (60's) DEC paperbacks. > > I'm not sure what the paper of choice for databooks is, generally if a > > book uses sized bond paper it's not at highest risk, but for the most > > part wood paper made before the '80s will have some degree of risk (and > > more modern papers that are not acid-free archival grade). > > So can anything be done for them? Absolutely. Cut off the binding and scan. Or if you insist on not doing that, then follow the procedure which Al mentions by reference as have several others of us here previously in this thread and previously in similar threads that appear several times a year. > > LOC (Library of Congress) has a fairly large group devoted to this > > problem, and a process fior neutralization that works pretty well > > (although if you do it wrong or make a mistake stuff bursts into flame). > > They point out that it is "not recommended for those who are not > > professionals". I've done it in classes taught and led and supervised by professionals :-). That doesn't make me a pro! Tim. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 8 08:47:47 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 06:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706080735.DAA15963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Jun 8, 7 03:03:11 am" Message-ID: <200706081347.l58DllHQ009266@floodgap.com> > In my experience, flat panels are roughly on a par with CRTs for colour > registration. (I'm perfectly willing to believe this means the CRTs > I've used need adjustment, but it's still true.) They need adjustment :) For colour proofing, especially video and photography, people still rely on CRTs (I know I do). It's not so much the *hue* that's the issue, but greys and gamma. You yourself even notice it: > Black level is mildly annoying, but only very mildly - and I'm totally > willing to put up with it for the sake of crisp pixel edges and no > fading of thin vertical lines (each of which has been a near-universal > problems with CRTs in my experience). CRTs are non-linear on the low end of the gamma curve, yielding darker and more even blacks/dark greys, while LCDs use a linear gamma that has a lot of artifacting in the low end. In addition, LCDs' grey contours tend to be compressed, yielding sharper, less-attractive gradations (which is why operating systems like OS X have different settings for antialiasing depending on if you are using an LCD or a CRT). Even though LCDs actually have better colour -- believe it or not, most LCD elements of reasonable quality do indeed have similar or better colour saturation than reasonable quality CRT phosphors -- their inability to properly render smooth tones, made worse by the uneven display illumination even in many medium-quality panels, makes it very hard to do professional image work with them because the lightness and noisiness of the image is so difficult to assess accurately. When I want to determine how an image "actually looks," I will take it to my 19" CRT -- and I use Apple LCDs, which are not cheap displays. But, LCDs are getting better. I think LED displays will be better yet. Some links with food for thought: http://www.macworld.com/2001/06/features/color/index.php http://www.displaymate.com/ShootOut_Comparison.htm http://broadcastengineering.com/newsrooms/broadcasting_gamma_correction/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Roger Waters to moving crew: "Hey! Careful with those racks, Eugene!" ------ From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Jun 8 09:18:40 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:18:40 -0400 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070607160728.O69592@shell.lmi.net> References: <46682B38.29615.25C70E95@cclist.sydex.com> <005801c7a8b2$9f5a9fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46682B38.29615.25C70E95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070608100938.012c47e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: >. . . and what was in the Tandy portable disk drive #1 for the model 100? Dunno the drive manufacturer, but I can tell you it was SS/SD, either 40track (TPDD1) or 80 track (TPDD2), with two sectors of 1280 bytes each IIRC, thereby getting 100K or 200K storage respectively. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 8 09:45:12 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:45:12 -0400 Subject: Mindset schematics In-Reply-To: <889036.75310.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <889036.75310.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46696B78.9060108@atarimuseum.com> Hi Chris, I've spoken with numerous former Mindset people, it seems when JVC swallowed them up, the docs were all transferred to JVC and strangely, no one kept their own copies. I would love to find ANY technical doc's on the Mindsets, understand its expansion bus and such. So far, no joy :-( I've fixed quite a few Mindsets, I have 4 M1000's and 2 M3000's, a few expansion modules and quite a lot of accessories and peripherals carts. Check with Bruce over at Digibarn and see if perhaps he's obtained any techdocs, he had a pretty respectable donation or acquisition of Mindset equipment a few years back and maybe he lucked out and go some schem's or other technical materials, if he has or if you find any, please let me know, thanks. Curt Chris M wrote: > A long shot I know, but does anyone have any service > docs for these things? I tentatively have 6 at the > moment! and of the lot only 1 works. Oi. Halp. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html > > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 8 10:49:22 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 09:49:22 -0600 Subject: govliq: 80MB CDC drive pack (French Camp, CA) Message-ID: CONTROL DATA STORAGE MODULE DRIVES BJ7XX 80 MB -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 8 10:50:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 09:50:56 -0600 Subject: govliq: (6) VAX 11/780 power supplies (H7112-A) NIB (Jacksonville, FL) Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 8 17:08:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 23:08:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070607160728.O69592@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 7, 7 04:08:32 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ...and there were also the 300 RPM 40 cylinder 3.5" DS2D drives at > > 67.5 tpi, used on a few CP/M systems as well as many inexpensive word > > processors. > > used by the Epson Geneva/PX8 Ah yes, the PF10. Now that was a strange drive. There's one PCB inside that contains the control processor (6303 IIRC), EPROM, RAM, disk controller chip _and_ the head amplifier, stepper drivers, etc. There's no separate drive logic board. And yes, it's 67.5 TPI. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 8 17:17:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 23:17:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <200706080752.IAA00913@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jun 8, 7 08:52:32 am Message-ID: > http://www.pcb-pool.com > http://www.pcb-value.co.uk > http://www.rak.co.uk > http://www.pcbtrain.com > adinfo at agarcircuits.com > > I can't comment on the quality of their services, I just happened to have > a magazine on the desk with their adverts in. I've not used any of them, but a friend of mine who does electronic design and prototyping has used PCBtrain and had no problems. -tony From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 8 17:31:56 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 23:31:56 +0100 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? References: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002001c7aa1c$d2576ea0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>...paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, crumbling >>paperbacks... > > Umm ... DEC's paperbacks. Actually, my 1979 onwards PDP-11 handbooks are fine. They're printed paper which looks slightly glossy and haven't yet started deteriorating (noticably anyway). OTOH, my early/mid 70's PDP-11 and PDP-8 books are smouldering nicely.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Jun 8 20:50:56 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 18:50:56 -0700 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? Message-ID: <08adf7d33361cf2fea950e856020db99@valleyimplants.com> Tim wrote: > I've done it in classes taught and led and supervised by professionals > :-). > That doesn't make me a pro! > > Tim. > Diethyl Zinc process? Brave man... Magnesium Oxide/perflourocarbon could work for the amateur, though. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 9 07:36:52 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 08:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706081347.l58DllHQ009266@floodgap.com> References: <200706081347.l58DllHQ009266@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200706091254.IAA04463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > For colour proofing, especially video and photography, people still > rely on CRTs (I know I do). No surprise there. I wouldn't maintain flat-panels are better in *all* respects! But for people who don't need that kind of detailed colour fidelity (which includes me and most people at $DAYJOB, for example), that issue slides down the priority list, often well below other things. > CRTs are non-linear on the low end of the gamma curve, yielding > darker and more even blacks/dark greys, while LCDs use a linear gamma > that has a lot of artifacting in the low end. Artifacting? I just tried a grey wash (black at one end to white at the other) and the only things I see that could be called artifacts are, I think, actually Mach bands. (I don't have a good light meter available to actually measure the emitted light.) > In addition, LCDs' grey contours tend to be compressed, yielding > sharper, less-attractive gradations (which is why operating systems > like OS X have different settings for antialiasing depending on if > you are using an LCD or a CRT). You'll need that just because of the different gamma curve. (Unless the antialiasing code inverts the gamma before and after operation, you'll need different antialiasing for different gamma curves.) > When I want to determine how an image "actually looks," I will take > it to my 19" CRT -- and I use Apple LCDs, which are not cheap > displays. Surely you should be using whatever the image's target will be using, since that will give you the most accurate impression of what your end consumers will be seeing? > But, LCDs are getting better. I think LED displays will be better > yet. True. CRT displays are a relatively mature technology at the moment; flat panels are relatively new. (Not that that invalidates current comparisons; it just means they're likely to change soon.) From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jun 9 11:55:26 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 17:55:26 +0100 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706061237.l56Cb5Sj012854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <000501c7aab6$fc117200$5b01a8c0@uatempname> I've found a working 5.25" 1.2MB drive (Mitsubishi MF504C-310MP) and a 3.5" 1.44MB drive (NEC FD1231T). Both drives can successfully format LD and HD media. I can fill disks and copy stuff off with no apparent issues. I'm booting DOS 6.22 off a 20MB partition on a 3GB drive. Dave Dunfield wrote: > To completely test the FDC, you need to check Single, Double and > Double/128 at each of 250, 300 and 500 kbps rates. These are > represented in a standard PC at: > > 250 = 5.25 low-density drive only, 3.5" low-density diskette > 300 = 5.25 Low-density diskette in high-density drive > 500 = 5.25" or 2.5" high-density diskette Before I go through a bunch of motherboards and find I've made an elementary mistake, I want to check that what I'm seeing is OK for a "typical" modern motherboard. FWIW this is a Gigabyte GA-7DXR+ and it takes Athlon/Athlon XP CPUs, the Super I/O controller is a VT82C686B ... just so you have an idea of what I've started with. I have the 5.25" drive as A: and the 3.5 drive as B: (and the BIOS has been told what they are). When I test the 3.5" drive I see a pass at 250k DD (with a 720K disk) and a pass at 500k DD (with a 1.44MB disk) and the other four cases fail. I think that means it can read/write the 720K and 1.44MB PC-style diskettes, so it doesn't buy me anything "odd" but the results do at least correspond with expected reality. When I test the 5.25" drive I see a pass at 300k DD (with a 360K disk) but with the 1.2MB disk I see three failures. I was expecting 500k DD to pass with a 1.2MB disk ... am I wrong? I've tried twice with the same results and I've reformatted the 1.2MB disk afterwards and in each case it formats with no errors. Are my expectations in error or am I slipping up somewhere? BTW: I'm not likely to find a fully-passing motherboard in the set of "modern" ones that I'm testing now. Any ideas how far back in time I need to go to find something that I can use as the basis of a "media archiving" machine? Most of the "PPP PPP PPP" ones are P1 systems. Although I have a bunch of older motherboards and processors, I'm not sure that I have "matching pairs" (or the docs to determine such, where separate components are involved). Ideally I'll find an add-in Adaptec board or similar, but, in case I don't, I'd like to minimise my search :-) Thanks Antonio From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 9 04:26:35 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 10:26:35 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FC9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> My sale or swap list (Update) (All funds to save other old DEC kit) PDP 11/94 (No cpu cards) x2 VT 420 x1 (-) LA75 x1 x1 (-) HP 700 Terminal x1 HP 2392A Terminal x1 Shiva LAN Rover x1 Victor PC in pristine condx. x1 SA600 (2 x RA92) Disk array in Cab x1 CXA16-M (M3118-YA) 16 Async line board x3 (+) VAX 4000-500 CPU Card (L4002-BA) x1 (+) VAX 4000-500 MEM Card L4004-CT x1 (+) Decserver 200/MC DSRVB-AB Ethernet AUI in 8x 25way D RS232 out. x5 (+) (-) One or more sold or swapped. (+) One or more added From pludikar at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 9 06:55:48 2007 From: pludikar at sympatico.ca (Peter) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 07:55:48 -0400 Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <200706081711.l58HAjoL019096@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> Hi, I have a Sony MP-F52W-30 floppy disk drive, which I need to replace - it semi worked until recently (would read but not write) until I zapped it by accident. It comes from an HP 1650B logic analyzer - does anyone know if it's a 600rpm or a standard 300rpm device? If it's a 600rpm then I've found someone who has one but wants a lot for it, otherwise I'm reasonably sure I can modify the cable connections to use a standard/modern drive. On the motherboard side, it has a Zilog Z0765A FDC, and I've successfully created disks on my PC (using HP's LIFUTIL) that worked on the drive. This makes me think that the drive is a standard 300rpm. Any thoughts? Curiously the serial number label indicates the drive as a MFD-52W-10, while the bigger label on the bottom of the unit shows MP-F52W-30. I guess that the MFD is a base which is then modified to HP's specs (MP-F). BTW Does anyone know what the -10, -30 suffixes mean? I've also seen -00D and -01D around as well. Thanks in advance Peter From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 9 12:53:04 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 13:53:04 -0400 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606215900.G28411@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706062352.25249.rtellason@verizon.net> <20070606215900.G28411@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200706091353.04641.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 07 June 2007 01:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > So Dave, what's the deal with those oddball 5.25" drives? I'm > > remembering vaguely some that were 96tpi, and one (?) that was > > supposedly 100tpi... > > Dave is testing the FDC, not the physical parameters of the drive. Ok... > 96tpi DSDD was common briefly, but was never used in the PC, except for > the PC-JX. To the disk controller, it is the same as a 3.5" "720K". > Teac 55F, Shugart 465, Tandon TM100-4, Mitsubishi 4853, etc > > > Micropolis came out with a 100tpi (77 track) 5.25" drive. It never really > caught on. Tandon made a replacement drive for that - TM100-4M. I *think* that CBM used one in one of their boxes too, maybe the 8050? It's been a while so I'd have to double-check that to be sure... > With a few exceptions, the 96tpi formats cqan be done using a 1.2M drive. > Teac 55FG is deliberately intende3d for both "720K" and 1.2M use. > The only exceptions would be drive where the stepper switches to double > stepping when in "low density" mode, or using a 250K or 300K data transfer > rate. Noted. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 9 12:54:50 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 13:54:50 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <20070607104155.4DA7DBA445D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <200706062349.23858.rtellason@verizon.net> <20070607104155.4DA7DBA445D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200706091354.50950.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 07 June 2007 06:41, Tim Shoppa wrote: > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > On Wednesday 06 June 2007 14:18, Chris M wrote: > > > how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? > > > Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them > > > in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. > > > > Nope. I don't see a need to destroy the books to get that info in > > there... > > Most databooks are printed on variable-to-poor quality paper and > will not last forever anyway. If you don't want to destroy them that > badly, then hopefully you will have them treated to neutralize the > acid in the paper. Most of the ones I have don't seem to have that problem, fortunately. > Most such books end up "too much trouble to scan but too valuable to > shear off the binding to make scanning easier" so the owner ends up > throwing them away. Not too likely in my case. :-) > Doug Jones has a good web page on paperback/databook type preservation: > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/book/ I'll have a look. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 9 12:59:56 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 10:59:56 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage Message-ID: <466AEA9C.2050405@bitsavers.org> > Athlon/Athlon XP CPUs, the > Super I/O controller is a VT82C686B ... > When I test the 5.25" drive I see a pass at 300k DD (with a 360K disk) > but with the 1.2MB disk I see three failures. I was expecting 500k DD > to pass with a 1.2MB disk ... am I wrong? I sent Dave about a dozen MB tests that I did on various MBs recently. There was one case where 1.2MB 500k DD failed, but read/wrote in DOS. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 9 13:59:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 11:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> References: <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> Message-ID: <20070609115535.K57537@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 9 Jun 2007, Peter wrote: > I have a Sony MP-F52W-30 floppy disk drive, which I need to replace - it > semi worked until recently (would read but not write) until I zapped it by > accident. Can you repair it, instead of replacing? There are some double sided Sonys around (check with Tony?) with physical head damage, but intact electronics. > It comes from an HP 1650B logic analyzer - does anyone know if > it's a 600rpm or a standard 300rpm device? not offhand > If it's a 600rpm then I've found > someone who has one but wants a lot for it, otherwise I'm reasonably sure I > can modify the cable connections to use a standard/modern drive. Can you change the data transfer rate produced by the controller? > On the motherboard side, it has a Zilog Z0765A FDC, and I've successfully > created disks on my PC (using HP's LIFUTIL) that worked on the drive. This > makes me think that the drive is a standard 300rpm. Any thoughts? no. 600RPM at 500K data transfer rate (Sony) is the same format spec as 300RPM at 250K data transfer rate (PC "720K" hardware) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 9 14:17:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:17:00 -0700 Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> References: <200706081711.l58HAjoL019096@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> Message-ID: <466A9A3C.26562.2F48B4A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2007 at 7:55, Peter wrote: > On the motherboard side, it has a Zilog Z0765A FDC, and I've successfully > created disks on my PC (using HP's LIFUTIL) that worked on the drive. This > makes me think that the drive is a standard 300rpm. Any thoughts? My notes say that it's a 600 RPM drive with a 26-pin interface. It hard to say much beyond that without going into how the drive is jumpered. Maybe Tony has one of these--I don't any more. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 9 14:20:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:20:40 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <466AEA9C.2050405@bitsavers.org> References: <466AEA9C.2050405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <466A9B18.5232.2F4C1149@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2007 at 10:59, Al Kossow wrote: > I sent Dave about a dozen MB tests that I did on various MBs recently. > There was one case where 1.2MB 500k DD failed, but read/wrote in DOS. Unfortunately, (and the VIA Super South Bridge) is one of the cases, the integrated FDC can be configured about six ways till Sunday, including PS/2 mode. DOS function will always work because DOS uses the BIOS routines to access the drive--and the BIOS knows all about the weirdnesses of the support chips. OTOH, the VIA SSB chip has a neat mode allowing for interface to a floppy drive using the parallel port. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jun 9 15:19:09 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:19:09 -0400 Subject: HP 1650b boot floppy; was Re: Anyone know the rotation speed... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 09 Jun 2007 07:55:48 EDT." <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> Message-ID: <200706092019.l59KJ9J4027732@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Peter" wrote: > >On the motherboard side, it has a Zilog Z0765A FDC, and I've successfully >created disks on my PC (using HP's LIFUTIL) that worked on the drive. This >makes me think that the drive is a standard 300rpm. Any thoughts? Interesting. I found that program but have not tried it. I did try to "image" the boot disk for a 1650B with linux but had no luck at all. I just wanted to create a backup & duplicate of the disk. Is LIFUTIL my only option? -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 9 15:47:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 21:47:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> from "Peter" at Jun 9, 7 07:55:48 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > I have a Sony MP-F52W-30 floppy disk drive, which I need to replace - it > semi worked until recently (would read but not write) until I zapped it by > accident. It comes from an HP 1650B logic analyzer - does anyone know if > it's a 600rpm or a standard 300rpm device? If it's a 600rpm then I've found > someone who has one but wants a lot for it, otherwise I'm reasonably sure I > can modify the cable connections to use a standard/modern drive. I don;t know that specific number, but the MP-F52W-50 is the half-height drive used in the 9114B. It has a single 34 pin connector, power on the odd-numbered pin,s and is a 600rpm drive. Go to http://www.hpmuseum.net/ and follow the links for disks and then the 9114. On the 'product documentation' page you'll find 'my' schematics for the 9114V. That includes the drive itself. You may be able to compare your drive with the schematics to see how similar it is. My guess is it'll be very similar, with perhaps a few links changed, and will be a 600rpm drive. I don;t know what's wrong with your drive, but as I said the other day, many parts are the same as in an Apple 800K drive. The only main part you can't get from there is the digital ASIC. Unfortunately (for you), the half-height drives don't suffer the smae dried-up grease problems as the full-height ones. So you won't find one with a head ripped off, which you could then use as a source of electronic parts. And the half-height drives are rarer than the full-heigth ones anyway. I don;'t know how easy it would be, but you might be able to modify the wiring to use a full-height drive with the 26 pin connector. The 9114A scheamtics (same place as above) include schematics of 2 versions of that drive. > > On the motherboard side, it has a Zilog Z0765A FDC, and I've successfully > created disks on my PC (using HP's LIFUTIL) that worked on the drive. This > makes me think that the drive is a standard 300rpm. Any thoughts? No. The 600rpm drives use twice the data rate of the 300rpm ones, so the magnetic parttern on the disk is unchanged. There is no problem at all in reading disks from a 600rpm drive on a PC (assuming the date encoding is compatble, etc), I routinely read dioks from my 9114s on a PC. Can you not measure the read clock freqeuncy at the disk controller chip to determine what data rate it's expecting amd then work back from that to figure out the drive spindle spee -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 9 17:06:53 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 15:06:53 -0700 Subject: HP 1650b boot floppy; was Re: Anyone know the rotation speed... Message-ID: <466B247D.50103@bitsavers.org> > I just wanted to create a backup & duplicate of the disk. imagedisk works From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jun 9 17:28:28 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:28:28 -0500 Subject: wang 2200vp available, Vicksburg, MS, USA Message-ID: <466B298C.3030904@pacbell.net> I was contacted a month or so ago by a gentleman with a wang 2200vp system that he would like to find a home for. I don't need another one, and I offered to "advertise" it here, but then it slipped my mind (it can be quite slippery sometimes). Many years ago in my business I had 2200VP set up complete with a Model 2260 disk drive. I think I had a Wang PC or two also. Since then, the components & the manuals (also floppies & disk cartridges) have been in storage in my attic (well, not the disk drive - whew! -- it is in a corner of my enclosed garage). Do you know anyone that might want any of this? I see nothing on ebay. I'm about ready to haul it all to the dump. Sigh. In a later exchange he said: I'm at Vicksburg, MS, right close to the Mississippi river. Yes, please spread the word that I want to move this Wang system out of my attic (and make room for other junk! ), The $12,000 5 meg (each platter?) disk drive I really think will have to go to the dump. I did not see any mention of it on the web and I doubt that anyone could use it. Have you ever seen the platters offered on ebay? I was thinking of trying that. I'm sure he doesn't want his email address in the archives, so please email me and I'll forward on his email address to you. You can learn more about the wang 2200 from my web site: http://www.wang2200.org From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 9 18:11:50 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:11:50 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 09 Jun 2007 10:26:35 +0100. <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FC9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FC9 at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, "Rod Smallwood" writes: > VT 420 x1 (-)=20 > LA75 x1 x1 (-) =20 > HP 700 Terminal > HP 2392A Terminal x1 Too bad you're on the wrong side of the pond... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jun 9 18:19:37 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:19:37 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks Message-ID: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> Hi, I just received a DDC (Digital Development Corporation) 6200X series fixed head disk. It includes all of the cables, power supplies and controller for a PDP-11. Before I hook it up to one of my 11's, does anyone have any docs on this beast? Here are the specs as I know them: Series: 6200X Speed: 3450rpm bits per track: 72000 access time: 8.7ms tracks: 64 unformatted capacity (MB): 0.58 Supposedly there was no scheduled preventive maintenance, however DDC made other fixed head drives that were helium filled and they needed periodic service. So, my question is do I need to do anything (like purge and refill) before I use it? Does anyone have any additional info? I did get some manuals with it, but they're mostly focused on the controller for the PDP-11. TIA. -- TTFN - Guy From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 9 18:36:22 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:36:22 -0700 Subject: LM309K regulator Message-ID: <466B3979.DA504AA1@cs.ubc.ca> While conversing with another list member about some old components, I was reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a nasty failure mode of the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of the) first integrated 5V regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - it's a vague second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or elaborate on this? I've never personally run across problems with them.. A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like short-circuit protection and thermal-overload protection.. ..another device perhaps? From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 9 13:43:08 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 19:43:08 +0100 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FCA@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I remember about 1971 collecting a PDP-8 I was going to use to use for control/data capture on a experiment at Harwell. It struck me then why supply such cheap manuals with a multi thousand dollar well built computer system? It was obvious that the books would fall apart if used. I had our repographics people take the books apart, blow them up to A4 and loose leaf bind them. They used research report archive paper (rot proof, fire resistant and good for 100+ years) and as a back up microfiched them as well. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ensor Sent: 08 June 2007 23:32 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Databooks: keep or toss? Hi, >>...paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, crumbling >>paperbacks... > > Umm ... DEC's paperbacks. Actually, my 1979 onwards PDP-11 handbooks are fine. They're printed paper which looks slightly glossy and haven't yet started deteriorating (noticably anyway). OTOH, my early/mid 70's PDP-11 and PDP-8 books are smouldering nicely.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. From rbazzano at alice.it Sat Jun 9 17:59:28 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:59:28 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive Message-ID: <007e01c7aae9$d55c0cf0$2201a8c0@ufficio> Hello. I have a partially defective HP 82901 drive. I found the problem on the controller card. I found a service manual on HpMuseum site, named "82901-82902_CEServiceHandbook-Partial_17pages_1982.pdf". Following it, I made all self tests and the problem is on the read circuit. I'm sure about that because the two Tandon drives work fine with another controller card. In this case, the service manual suggest to verify read oscillator frequency. Unfortunately the section VI of the manual describing the procedure is completely missing from the pdf file. Perhaps someone has this manual? I would be very gratefull if someone can help me to fix this drive. Thank you very much. Roberto From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 9 19:01:45 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 18:01:45 -0600 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay Message-ID: See item # 120128637318 I won an SGI Personal Iris 4D/20 (1988!) workstation. I was the only bidder and I picked it up for $40. The cosmetic condition is excellent. Honestly, I expected someone to come in and snipe me at the last possible minute, so I increased my bid twice. The hard drive will be wipe, so I nee to get an OS package for this, which is probably as hard as finding the hardware. In several years of watching ebay for SGI gear, this is the first time I've seen a Personal Iris offered up, although I admit that I haven't had a specific search for it, so one or two may have slipped through the cracks. Are the SGI collectors just out enjoying the nice weather? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From steve at radiorobots.com Sat Jun 9 19:23:18 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:23:18 -0400 Subject: LM309K regulator In-Reply-To: <466B3979.DA504AA1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <466B3979.DA504AA1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <466B4476.6000701@radiorobots.com> A number of three terminal regulators exhibit problems if capacitances they see on their input and/or output are wrong. Brent Hilpert wrote: >While conversing with another list member about some old components, I was >reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a nasty failure mode of >the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of the) first integrated 5V >regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. > >I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - it's a vague >second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or elaborate on this? >I've never personally run across problems with them.. >A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like short-circuit >protection and thermal-overload protection.. ..another device perhaps? > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 21:13:52 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 19:13:52 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706091913h6e8c09a4o3479ead5502e2e1e@mail.gmail.com> How does that work with a fixed head disk, one head per track? So 64 heads in this case? 0.58 MB capacity, what vintage is that? How big is the platter(s)? What would be filled with helium? The volume in which the platter(s) rotate? Why helium? Is it interesting enough to look at to take pictures and post them? From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jun 9 21:40:55 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 19:40:55 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90706091913h6e8c09a4o3479ead5502e2e1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> <1e1fc3e90706091913h6e8c09a4o3479ead5502e2e1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> Glen Slick wrote: > How does that work with a fixed head disk, one head per track? So 64 > heads in this case? Yes, there's another version that has 128 heads. Mine's the small one which is only 64 heads. > > 0.58 MB capacity, what vintage is that? Date stamp on the controller and the HDA is 1975. > How big is the platter(s)? I'd guess 12-14". > What would be filled with helium? The volume in which the platter(s) > rotate? Why helium? The HDA is filled with helium. Helium being lower density than normal air, allows the heads (and the coaxial motor) to run cooler (less "air" resistance). > > Is it interesting enough to look at to take pictures and post them? > Once I get it all mounted, sure. -- TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 9 22:50:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 21:50:17 -0600 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com is online! Message-ID: It needs a lot more data, but I'd like all listers to feel free to contribute.... Lots of data yet to be entered by me, but the primary stuff is all wikis so you can all add stuff. If there's a feature you'd like to see, let me know. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 9 22:51:52 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 21:51:52 -0600 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com URL Message-ID: oops, that's what I get for drinking beer on a Saturday night... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 9 23:05:20 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:05:20 -0400 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com URL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706100005.21019.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 09 June 2007 23:51, Richard wrote: > oops, that's what I get for drinking beer on a Saturday night... > > It's also in the message subject... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From onymouse at garlic.com Sat Jun 9 23:43:18 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 21:43:18 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> <1e1fc3e90706091913h6e8c09a4o3479ead5502e2e1e@mail.gmail.com> <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > Glen Slick wrote: >> What would be filled with helium? The volume in which the platter(s) >> rotate? Why helium? > The HDA is filled with helium. Helium being lower density than normal > air, allows the heads (and the coaxial motor) to run cooler (less "air" > resistance). >> >> Helium is a very good thermal conductor but I would suspect that it is used because it is cleaner and dryer than air and nitrogen and truly inert and won't chemically react with the medium. The helium was likely under pressure to reduce the chance of air getting in. Since it can leak out much faster than nitrogen and air, thanks to the physics of helium, the seals and sealing surfaces must be in excellent condition. But no matter how good the seal, helium still leaks out so it needs to be replenished from time to time. If you know anyone with a helium leak detector with a helium probe, maybe you can ask them to find out how much helium leaks out and whether there are any significant leaks. Soapy water or "snoop" will only show relatively massive leaks. A helium leak detector can tell you whether you have to refill the unit every week or every few months and snoop cannot tell you that. Don't put the unit under vacuum though. Might have to pay attention to lubricants, too. There's not many lubricants that don't have volatiles _and_ can tolerate an environment without air. They're out there but like green glue, they're neither expensive nor very obvious. IIRC, helium was used for drum memories, too. Of course, so was the single-head-per-track tech. In the old days, a computer tech was at least as much a mechanic as an electronic tech. Nowadays, it's mostly software. The "mechanical" part is just screws and pulling PC boards. == jd All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 10 00:15:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:15:30 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> Message-ID: <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2007 at 21:43, jd wrote: >> Helium is a very good thermal conductor but I would suspect that it is used > because it is cleaner and dryer than air and nitrogen and truly inert and won't > chemically react with the medium. The helium was likely under pressure to reduce > the chance of air getting in. Since it can leak out much faster than nitrogen > and air, thanks to the physics of helium, the seals and sealing surfaces must be > in excellent condition. But no matter how good the seal, helium still leaks out > so it needs to be replenished from time to time. So why wasn't another noble gas used, such as argon? I don't doubt that helium might have been used, but I don't understand why. Cheers, Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jun 10 00:20:20 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:20:20 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> <1e1fc3e90706091913h6e8c09a4o3479ead5502e2e1e@mail.gmail.com> <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> Message-ID: <466B8A14.9070306@shiresoft.com> John Wilson responded with some excerpts from a related set of manuals. It actually uses nitrogen and the bits he gave me contained the purging and refill instructions. So at some point, I'll replace what ever is in the disk now with "new" nitrogen and give it a try. jd wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> Glen Slick wrote: >> >>> What would be filled with helium? The volume in which the platter(s) >>> rotate? Why helium? >>> >> The HDA is filled with helium. Helium being lower density than normal >> air, allows the heads (and the coaxial motor) to run cooler (less "air" >> resistance). >> >>> > Helium is a very good thermal conductor but I would suspect that it is used > because it is cleaner and dryer than air and nitrogen and truly inert and won't > chemically react with the medium. The helium was likely under pressure to reduce > the chance of air getting in. Since it can leak out much faster than nitrogen > and air, thanks to the physics of helium, the seals and sealing surfaces must be > in excellent condition. But no matter how good the seal, helium still leaks out > so it needs to be replenished from time to time. > > If you know anyone with a helium leak detector with a helium probe, maybe you > can ask them to find out how much helium leaks out and whether there are any > significant leaks. Soapy water or "snoop" will only show relatively massive > leaks. A helium leak detector can tell you whether you have to refill the unit > every week or every few months and snoop cannot tell you that. Don't put the > unit under vacuum though. > > Might have to pay attention to lubricants, too. There's not many lubricants that > don't have volatiles _and_ can tolerate an environment without air. They're out > there but like green glue, they're neither expensive nor very obvious. > > IIRC, helium was used for drum memories, too. Of course, so was the > single-head-per-track tech. > > In the old days, a computer tech was at least as much a mechanic as an > electronic tech. Nowadays, it's mostly software. The "mechanical" part is just > screws and pulling PC boards. > > == > jd > All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. > > > -- TTFN - Guy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 00:23:15 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:23:15 -0700 Subject: LM309K regulator In-Reply-To: <466B3979.DA504AA1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: >From: Brent Hilpert > >While conversing with another list member about some old components, I was >reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a nasty failure mode of >the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of the) first integrated 5V >regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. > >I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - it's a vague >second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or elaborate on this? >I've never personally run across problems with them.. >A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like short-circuit >protection and thermal-overload protection.. ..another device perhaps? Hi Many regulators could not handle significant back voltage. The problem would often occur if the input had a small capacitor relative to the output and there was a bleader or other load on the input source. This was common problem with many CMOS circuits. Another problem was input over voltage. Often if ther was a transformer without an input filter capacitor, when the power was turned off, the inductive spike would wipe out the regulator. It seems like negative rail regulators were most suseptible to this. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From pludikar at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 9 23:06:19 2007 From: pludikar at sympatico.ca (Peter) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:06:19 -0400 Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <200706081711.l58HAjoL019096@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002601c7ab14$b3ffcd50$6500a8c0@Mum> > Go to http://www.hpmuseum.net/ and follow the links for disks and then > the 9114. On the 'product documentation' page you'll find 'my' schematics > for the 9114V. That includes the drive itself. Tony, many thanks - the schematics/circuit diagrams appear to be 100% relevant to my board. I can now start trying to figure out what I zapped. It looks like the -50 and -30 suffixes are little more than cosmetic changes or switch configurations. My FDD is also a half height. I was thinking about the Z0765A FDC and how to make it compatible with a 300rpm FDD. It seems that all that needs to be done (in theory) is to reduce all the FDC clocks by half - the 8MHz clock to 4MHz and the Write Clock to 500KHz. (NEC indicates this in their uPD 765A datasheet). Clearly not as simple to execute as it sounds, but not beyond the realms of possibility. Thanks to everyone else who responded. Peter From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 10 01:15:21 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 02:15:21 -0400 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0263B22C-79BE-47F3-A389-C31D203096D1@neurotica.com> On Jun 9, 2007, at 8:01 PM, Richard wrote: > See item # 120128637318 > > I won an SGI Personal Iris 4D/20 (1988!) workstation. I was the only > bidder and I picked it up for $40. The cosmetic condition is > excellent. > > Honestly, I expected someone to come in and snipe me at the last > possible minute, so I increased my bid twice. > > The hard drive will be wipe, so I nee to get an OS package for this, > which is probably as hard as finding the hardware. In several years > of watching ebay for SGI gear, this is the first time I've seen a > Personal Iris offered up, although I admit that I haven't had a > specific search for it, so one or two may have slipped through the > cracks. > > Are the SGI collectors just out enjoying the nice weather? Wow, that's a nice score! I spent a very long time developing software on a 4D/25G, a later but very similar model, when it was current. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jun 10 01:45:15 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 02:45:15 -0400 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay References: Message-ID: <00d701c7ab2a$e779e510$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay > See item # 120128637318 > > I won an SGI Personal Iris 4D/20 (1988!) workstation. I was the only > bidder and I picked it up for $40. The cosmetic condition is > excellent. Local find? Those would be a bit heavy on shipping. Is SGI more collectable now then a few years ago? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 10 02:03:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:03:16 -0700 Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <002601c7ab14$b3ffcd50$6500a8c0@Mum> References: <200706081711.l58HAjoL019096@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <002601c7ab14$b3ffcd50$6500a8c0@Mum> Message-ID: <466B3FC4.17838.31CF479A@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2007 at 0:06, Peter wrote: > I was thinking about the Z0765A FDC and how to make it compatible with a > 300rpm FDD. It seems that all that needs to be done (in theory) is to > reduce all the FDC clocks by half - the 8MHz clock to 4MHz and the Write > Clock to 500KHz. (NEC indicates this in their uPD 765A datasheet). Clearly > not as simple to execute as it sounds, but not beyond the realms of > possibility. Actually, you don't need to change CLK (on pin 19), just WCLK on pin 21--on the 765, CLK is pretty much independent of the data rate. So you can leave it at 8 MHz. I haven't looked at the schematic, but you may also need to either synthesize a "drive ready" signal or use a 720K drive that has the capability of providing one, say, a Teac FD235F. Hope this helps. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 10 02:49:42 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:49:42 -0600 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Jun 2007 02:45:15 -0400. <00d701c7ab2a$e779e510$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: In article <00d701c7ab2a$e779e510$0b01a8c0 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > Local find? Those would be a bit heavy on shipping. I've had a deskside Onyx sent to me from Reading, PA and San Diego, CA. I drove out to St. Louis, MO (Hi Jay!) and rented a truck to drive back: Crimson deskside, Onyx XL, Challenge XL, Onyx 2 4-rack Reality Monster. Having this puppy shipped to me, even if by freight, will be nothing compared to those. > Is SGI more collectable > now then a few years ago? Personal Iris, Onyx, Crimson are hard to find, particularly in good cosmetic condition. The skins are fragile on the Onyx/Crimson/Challenge. The PI is much harder to find, IMO. I've been looking for several years and this was the first one on ebay. There was one offered by a collector in Canada, but the customs and border crossing aspect of the shipping (plus he wanted to sell everything in one big lot at a time when I was short on cash) were prohibitive for me. Eventually someone picked it up in person. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Jun 10 03:40:05 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:40:05 +0200 Subject: LM309K regulator References: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9D8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens dwight elvey >Verzonden: zo 10-06-2007 07:23 >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Onderwerp: RE: LM309K regulator > >>From: Brent Hilpert >> >>While conversing with another list member about some old components, I >>was reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a nasty failure mode of >>the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of the) first integrated 5V >>regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. >> >>I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - it's a vague >>second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or elaborate on this? >>I've never personally run across problems with them.. >>A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like short-circuit >>protection and thermal-overload protection.. ..another device perhaps? > > >Hi >Many regulators could not handle significant back voltage. The problem >would often occur if the input had a small capacitor relative to the >output and there was a bleader or other load on the input source. >This was common problem with many CMOS circuits. >Another problem was input over voltage. Often if ther was a transformer >without an input filter capacitor, when the power was turned off, the >inductive spike would wipe out the regulator. It seems like negative >rail regulators were most suseptible to this. >Dwight I would like to hear more about this! I am about to build myself a small power supply for -16V. using an LM337T. I know that if the output capacitor is larger than the input filter cap you better put a diode connected between the output and input pin, and that for HF you should put small caps (say 10 to 100 nF) with short leads from input to Gnd and output to Gnd. Never heard about that switch-off spike from the transformer. Since that -16V. is the power supply for my RACAL RA.366 panoramic adapter I'd hate to see that unit get damaged ... would a VDR across the secundary of the transformer help? thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From davis at saw.net Sun Jun 10 03:49:52 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:49:52 -0700 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <466BBB30.2020504@saw.net> Richard A. Cini wrote: Not to say that this is a bit silly, But isn't this project about developing a "CELL" processor/simulator? Specifically, a ribosome simulation? That gives you proteins. Then you need a simulator for the output of that production, and I would assume, an almost infinite progression of simulations for all the processes. It sounds like fun, But looking at the wikipedia entry just now, You would need a PhD in cellular biochem, genetics, computer science and a EE to even consider building something that could even express a couple proteins. I might be wrong. This is either crackpot or Nobel prize territory. Didn't mean to disparage anyone, but... Jim Davis. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 10 08:02:12 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:02:12 -0400 Subject: Free in DC area Message-ID: <20070610130212.6F086BA4433@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Free, you pick up in the MD suburbs (near beltway) or I can meet you in downtown DC most weekdays: * Several hundred new anti-static bags * Digital PR/S01 portable paper tape reader * Converter box for above paper tape reader that makes it to RS-232 so you can plug in a PC Drop me an email at "shoppa at trailing-edge.com" if you're interested. Tim. From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jun 10 08:43:41 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:43:41 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <466BBB30.2020504@saw.net> Message-ID: This is the same thing that came across my mind when I was sitting on the phone with him. He seem to has some of the discipline and medical training and appears self-taught in other areas. If something happens with this ultimately, we can say, "I remember him when..." On 6/10/07 4:49 AM, "davis" wrote: > Richard A. Cini wrote: > > Not to say that this is a bit silly, But isn't this project about > developing a "CELL" processor/simulator? > Specifically, a ribosome simulation? That gives you proteins. Then you > need a simulator for the output > of that production, and I would assume, an almost infinite progression > of simulations for all the processes. > > It sounds like fun, But looking at the wikipedia entry just now, You > would need a PhD in cellular biochem, > genetics, computer science and a EE to even consider building something > that could even express a couple proteins. > I might be wrong. This is either crackpot or Nobel prize territory. > Didn't mean to disparage anyone, but... > > Jim Davis. > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jun 10 10:13:41 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:13:41 -0700 Subject: PI 4D/20 (WAS: Re: you *can* get a good deal on ebay) Message-ID: Nice beast, a bit slow but decent, especially with the Super Turbo option. In talks with other hobbyists (and experience with my 4D/25 Super Turbo), it seems like the Turbo option is a bit delicate, so you might need to remove the turbo card and plug the RE1/RE2 into the slot (if it is a 1988 model, then Turbo wasn't offered and won't be an issue). The symptoms are graphics lockups. I haven't had time to look at my card and se what's up. It will run "IRIX" 4D1-3.2 through IRIX 5.3 just fine, note that to install from a CD-ROM you need to have a SGI-firmware CD-ROM (there is a hack in the firmware that has the drive identify itself to the SGI PROM as a fixed SCSI disk long enough to trick the PROM into booting from it), and you'll need to ignore the "install system software" menu option and instead go into the PROM monitor, run "boot -f dksc(0,, 8)sash.IP6" and then at the sash prompt type "install". IRIX 4.0 and above deal with CD-ROMs just fine, can't remember about 4D1-3.x. For 5.3 you will want 32MB or more, look on the old "SGI FAQ" for information on the endearing features of the PI 4D/2x memory controller. From onymouse at garlic.com Sun Jun 10 10:29:49 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:29:49 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Jun 2007 at 21:43, jd wrote: > >>> Helium is a very good thermal conductor but I would suspect that > it is used >> because it is cleaner and dryer than air and nitrogen and truly inert and won't >> chemically react with the medium. The helium was likely under pressure to reduce >> the chance of air getting in. Since it can leak out much faster than nitrogen >> and air, thanks to the physics of helium, the seals and sealing surfaces must be >> in excellent condition. But no matter how good the seal, helium still leaks out >> so it needs to be replenished from time to time. > > So why wasn't another noble gas used, such as argon? I don't doubt > that helium might have been used, but I don't understand why. > As Guy Sotomayor mentioned in another post, nitrogen was used in the disk. IIRC, helium costs less than argon. There's something else about argon that makes it undesireable as an inert gas except for welding. What that is I do not know. Nitrogen costs even less than helium--depending on the purity. I wondered why helium would be used instead of nitrogen. Just assumed that perhaps there would be too much of a reaction with the media or something else to be tolerable. I do recall some computer equipment that had helium in the enclosure. At least that's what the labels said. == Real computer scientists despise the idea of actual hardware. Hardware has limitations, software doesn't. It's a real shame that Turing machines are so poor at I/O. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 11:33:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:33:46 -0700 Subject: LM309K regulator In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9D8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: >From: "Gooijen, Henk" > > >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens dwight elvey > >Verzonden: zo 10-06-2007 07:23 > >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Onderwerp: RE: LM309K regulator > > > >>From: Brent Hilpert > >> > >>While conversing with another list member about some old components, I > >>was reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a nasty failure mode of > >>the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of the) first integrated >5V > >>regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. > >> > >>I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - it's a vague > >>second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or elaborate on this? > >>I've never personally run across problems with them.. > >>A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like short-circuit > >>protection and thermal-overload protection.. ..another device perhaps? > > > > > >Hi > >Many regulators could not handle significant back voltage. The problem > >would often occur if the input had a small capacitor relative to the > >output and there was a bleader or other load on the input source. > >This was common problem with many CMOS circuits. > >Another problem was input over voltage. Often if ther was a transformer > >without an input filter capacitor, when the power was turned off, the > >inductive spike would wipe out the regulator. It seems like negative > >rail regulators were most suseptible to this. > >Dwight > > >I would like to hear more about this! I am about to build myself a small >power supply for -16V. using an LM337T. I know that if the output capacitor >is larger than the input filter cap you better put a diode connected >between >the output and input pin, and that for HF you should put small caps (say >10 to 100 nF) with short leads from input to Gnd and output to Gnd. >Never heard about that switch-off spike from the transformer. >Since that -16V. is the power supply for my RACAL RA.366 panoramic adapter >I'd hate to see that unit get damaged ... would a VDR across the secundary >of the transformer help? > > thanks, >- Henk, PA8PDP > Hi Henk Usually the filter cap on the rectifier is enough to safely absorb the energy of the transformer. Still, it is something that you need to check and actually verify. If the range of line voltages that the unit is to run on put the input voltage near the maximum of the rating, it needs to be checked. Where I personally saw this effect was in a unit that had 5 of the modular power supplies ( linear w/ transformers ) all wired in parallel. When the switch was turn on and off, the stored energy in the cores needs to go sumplace, just like the coil in an ignition system. What makes it worse is something like a zero cross switch which would be worse as that is when the maximum energy is in the cores magnetic field. We were not able to get the manufacture of the modular power supplies to solve the problem fast enough so we shipped the machine but put those varistors on the inputs to clamp the voltage swing. We learned later that sufficient sized input caps would also work. For these, one had to make sure that it wasn't too small as this would actually enhance the spike, as the capacitor does in an ignition system does, buy reducing the arcing of the switch contacts. The diode, as you mentions, was the typical way to solve the back voltage problem. It is a good idea in most any case. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don?t miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 11:47:07 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:47:07 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 9 Jun 2007 at 21:43, jd wrote: > > >> Helium is a very good thermal conductor but I would suspect that >it is used > > because it is cleaner and dryer than air and nitrogen and truly inert >and won't > > chemically react with the medium. The helium was likely under pressure >to reduce > > the chance of air getting in. Since it can leak out much faster than >nitrogen > > and air, thanks to the physics of helium, the seals and sealing surfaces >must be > > in excellent condition. But no matter how good the seal, helium still >leaks out > > so it needs to be replenished from time to time. > >So why wasn't another noble gas used, such as argon? I don't doubt >that helium might have been used, but I don't understand why. > > Hi Chuck The only two things I can think of where mentioned by others. One was thermal conductivity and the other was friction. Helium has almost zero friction. Still, the stuff leaks out of things so fast. Even solid surfaces. I find it funny that it is cheaper than argon. There is a lot of argon but I'd guess the extraction from natural gas, where it is undesired for burning, makes helium cheaper than argon that has to be intentionally removed from air. Two percent of air is argon as I recall. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jun 10 12:22:51 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:22:51 -0700 Subject: LM309K regulator References: Message-ID: <466C336B.A9B9E0C9@cs.ubc.ca> Steve Stutman wrote: > A number of three terminal regulators exhibit problems if capacitances > they see on their input and/or output are wrong. dwight elvey wrote: > Many regulators could not handle significant back voltage. The problem > would often occur if the input had a small capacitor relative to the > output and there was a bleader or other load on the input source. > This was common problem with many CMOS circuits. > Another problem was input over voltage. Often if ther was a transformer > without an input filter capacitor, when the power was turned off, the > inductive spike would wipe out the regulator. It seems like negative > rail regulators were most suseptible to this. Yes, I was aware of these issues, they're covered in the databooks for the later regulators in the fine print. Guessing, but perhaps before these issues were commonly realised or their solutions incorporated, problems showed up more frequently, and they would show up in earlier systems which were more likely to be using the 309, and so the 309 unfairly got a bad rap. BTW: The earliest reference I found for the 309 was Feb 1971 (Nat Semi Linear Application Note). Mentioned as one of the motivations for it's development or uses is distributed/on-card regulation, the technique the Altair/S100 bus would later take up with. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 10 12:40:52 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:40:52 -0700 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:01 PM -0600 6/9/07, Richard wrote: >I won an SGI Personal Iris 4D/20 (1988!) workstation. I was the only >bidder and I picked it up for $40. The cosmetic condition is >excellent. The best deal I've *EVER* gotten from eBay was on my SGI O2 w/270Mhz R12k, I got it for $250 BIN when they were still going for close to $1k on eBay. >Are the SGI collectors just out enjoying the nice weather? With IRIX a dead end, I don't know how much people are going after them any more. My pair of O2's (I also have one with the slowest O2 CPU) are the most impressive workstations I've ever seen, and I'd love to have an Octane 2, Fuel, or Tezro, but unless I get them locally for basically nothing I don't see me spending the money to get one. I'm much more likely to spend money on better Sun hardware (right now I have a dual 750Mhz Sunblade 1000), as I don't collect Unix machines, I want usable machines. A Unix machine with an OS that is no longer actively supported isn't that usable to me. BTW, I actually prefer my dual 450Mhz Ultra 60 to the Sunblade 1000, as it generates a whole lot less heat! So speed isn't the only concern. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 10 14:16:55 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:16:55 -0400 Subject: Free in DC area In-Reply-To: <20070610130212.6F086BA4433@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20070610130212.6F086BA4433@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20070610191655.722BCBA4443@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> The stuff has been claimed already. Thanks for the interest! Tim. From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jun 10 14:28:43 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:28:43 -0400 Subject: SST Manual/ Windows 286 needed Message-ID: All: I?m looking for a copy of the printed manual for Murray Sargent?s Scroll Screen Tracer (SST) debugger program. If someone has it can you scan it for me? I?m also looking for a copy of Windows/286 2.1 disks ? I can?t find mine in my box (crate) of disks. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 10 15:22:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:22:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <002601c7ab14$b3ffcd50$6500a8c0@Mum> from "Peter" at Jun 10, 7 00:06:19 am Message-ID: > > Tony, many thanks - the schematics/circuit diagrams appear to be 100% > relevant to my board. I can now start trying to figure out what I zapped. > It looks like the -50 and -30 suffixes are little more than cosmetic changes > or switch configurations. My FDD is also a half height. I think the motor speed is referenced to the master clock on that PCB -- there's a seramic resonator or something IIRC. In which case, if the resonator is the same frequency, the chips the same types, and the motor still has 6 coils, it'll be a 600 rpm unit. I don't know how common 9114Bs are, but that might be a source of a replacement drive. Ditto 9153s, but IIRC at least one version of those (9153C) has a 1.44M 300rpm drive, which is exactly what you don't want! > > I was thinking about the Z0765A FDC and how to make it compatible with a > 300rpm FDD. It seems that all that needs to be done (in theory) is to > reduce all the FDC clocks by half - the 8MHz clock to 4MHz and the Write > Clock to 500KHz. (NEC indicates this in their uPD 765A datasheet). Clearly > not as simple to execute as it sounds, but not beyond the realms of > possibility. You will also have to fiddle with the VCO (and maybe any loop filters) in the data separator. It should be possible, unless there;s some evil software that complains if an index pulse takes too long to appear (I could believe anything from HP self-tests!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 10 15:15:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:15:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <007e01c7aae9$d55c0cf0$2201a8c0@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 10, 7 00:59:28 am Message-ID: > > Hello. > I have a partially defective HP 82901 drive. I don't know this drive by model number, but IIRC it's a daul 5.25" drive with an HPIB interface. I have an HP drive that fits that description, unfortunately I can't get to it quickly, so I can't verify the model number, but I do remember some things about it. > I found the problem on the controller card. > I found a service manual on HpMuseum site, named > "82901-82902_CEServiceHandbook-Partial_17pages_1982.pdf". Following it, I > made all self tests and the problem is on the read circuit. I'm sure about > that because the two Tandon drives work fine with another controller card. > In this case, the service manual suggest to verify read oscillator > frequency. Unfortunately the section VI of the manual describing the > procedure is completely missing from the pdf file. I would strongly recoemdn that you don't _adjust_ anything at this point. It's fine to check the freqeucny, but don't tweak anything until you are sure the fault is just misadjustment. Anyway, from what I remeber, the controller card is based round a 6802 processor [1]. The actual disk contorller chip, anohter 40 pin device, is made by Fujitsu, and has the same pinout as the 1793 _apart from being +5V supply only_. [1] If you've got chips marked with the HP house codes (1820-xxxx numbers, maybe soem 1818-xxxx ones), let me know what they are and I can see if I can find the standard equivalents. That mioght be enough to get you started. Grab a 1793 data sheet and check the clocks at the pins of the disk controller. There is probably a proper procedure for adjusting the free-running requency of the data separate VCO, but at this point, what you want to do is see (a) is there a read clock and (b) is it possibly a sane frequency. I can't remember much abotu the PSU in this unit. IIRC there is a seaprate PSU PCB (and presumably you can check the outputs of that quite easily). It's quite possible the VCO circuit needs a -ve supply line. This might come from the main PSU, but on at least one HP controller, it was producaed by a charge pump circuit clocked from a divided-down version of a master clock. That might be worth looking for and checking. If you're really stuck, I'll excavate my unit, pull the covers, and see what I can quickly deduce. -tony From jam at magic.com Sun Jun 10 16:19:12 2007 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks Message-ID: <200706102119.OAA06137@mist.magic.com> > I do recall some computer equipment that had helium in the enclosure. At least > that's what the labels said. I have a DDC 7301 drive (same manufacturer as Guy's, but different model), and it is definitely filled with helium. Well, it was filled with helium 30 years ago ... The DDC maintenance manual says it requires oil-free 99.995% pure helium. The preventive maintenance procedure indicates that the helium tank is good for about 6 months (dropping from 2200psi to 300psi). James Markevitch From onymouse at garlic.com Sun Jun 10 15:58:46 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:58:46 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> Message-ID: <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> jd wrote: [snip] > > IIRC, helium costs less than argon. There's something else about argon that > makes it undesireable as an inert gas except for welding. What that is I do not > know. > I hear now that argon now costs less. Have yet to see a price list. (Hello? Air Products?) Not too long ago a 5ft cylinder of 99.995% helium @ 3600psi costs $75.00 plus whatever deposit and demurrage, and the same cylinder of 99.95% argon @ around 1200psi cost around $100.00. There's much more helium in the cylinder than argon. I'm sure nitrogen was more expensive. I remember thinking that it was odd that common nitrogen was so much more expensive than helium. Sure wish I could find the real price lists. They're somewhere down in the Jurassic stratum of this "library" of mine. == jd Confidence is the feeling you have before you understand the situation. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 10 16:59:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:59:33 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com>, <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> Message-ID: <466C11D5.29437.3503DDFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2007 at 13:58, jd wrote: > Not too long ago a 5ft cylinder of 99.995% helium @ 3600psi costs $75.00 plus > whatever deposit and demurrage, and the same cylinder of 99.95% argon @ around > 1200psi cost around $100.00. There's much more helium in the cylinder than argon. > > I'm sure nitrogen was more expensive. I remember thinking that it was odd that > common nitrogen was so much more expensive than helium. My thought was that helium would diffuse out through the tiniest opening or porous seal quite rapidly. On the other hand, argon doesn't even come close to helium's thermal conductivitiy. Cheers, Chuck From steerex at mindspring.com Sun Jun 10 18:36:17 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:36:17 -0400 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive Message-ID: <01C7AB96.9FA47DB0@MAGGIE> > Hello. > I have a partially defective HP 82901 drive. I don't know this drive by model number, but IIRC it's a daul 5.25" drive with an HPIB interface. I have an HP drive that fits that description, unfortunately I can't get to it quickly, so I can't verify the model number, but I do remember some things about it. Can you post a picture of the controller card somewhere? I may have a spare one laying around here (somewhere). SteveRob From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun Jun 10 21:36:57 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:36:57 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Updates to my PDP-11 web site Message-ID: <18142769.1181529417237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Since my collection has changed in the past couple of years (acquired a good many new items, traded/sold some other items), I decided to update my "PDP-11 Collection" page. I've added lots of new pictures. Take a look if you like "DEC Porn", as Jay calls it. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 10 21:46:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:46:13 -0600 Subject: Updates to my PDP-11 web site In-Reply-To: <18142769.1181529417237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18142769.1181529417237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <466CB775.9030904@jetnet.ab.ca> Ashley Carder wrote: > Since my collection has changed in the past couple of years (acquired a good many new items, traded/sold some other items), I decided to update my "PDP-11 Collection" page. I've added lots of new pictures. Take a look if you like "DEC Porn", as Jay calls it. > > Ashley > http://www.woffordwitch.com Hey I want real PORN ... How about a nice NUDE 2008 green bar calender? :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 10 22:26:28 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:26:28 -0600 Subject: Updates to my PDP-11 web site In-Reply-To: <18142769.1181529417237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18142769.1181529417237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <466CC0E4.5030706@jetnet.ab.ca> Ashley Carder wrote: > Since my collection has changed in the past couple of years (acquired a good many new items, traded/sold some other items), I decided to update my "PDP-11 Collection" page. I've added lots of new pictures. Take a look if you like "DEC Porn", as Jay calls it. Look Look Look ... Drool Drool Drool ... The Dec Computer Lab is new for me. Is that scanned in on bytesavers? A quick look around does not show it there? > Ashley > http://www.woffordwitch.com From evan at snarc.net Sun Jun 10 22:57:12 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 23:57:12 -0400 Subject: VCF East 4.0 wrap-up Message-ID: <007d01c7abdc$97d34a30$6401a8c0@evan> Hola, collectors! I just got home from VCF East 4.0 of course I?m biased, but what a great weekend! Around ? of the exhibitors came Friday night afternoon/evening to get ready. This year we expanded the venue from one room to two. But, the second room is still VERY under construction. Some of our volunteers were literally still installing sheetrock that morning. So we had to use some yellow caution tape, but it added character. :-) Friday night was bar trip #1 I drove back to my hotel safely was but very, very tired waking up early Saturday. For Chuck Peddle?s videocon Saturday morning, the weakest part of our internet connection was the wifi or so I thought! Turns out, the wifi worked great, as did Skype. Chuck spoke to us for an hour+ then he got an strong round of applause then we were about to begin audience Q&A. All was fine until that part. Until our videocon server went BSOD!! We couldn?t even get it to reboot in ?safe mode? so we emailed Chuck from my cell phone, who said he had to get going anyway, but that anyone with questions could email him. Okay then! Bil Herb, Bob, Russell, and Dave Haynie took their turns next; lots more great stories and they brought many prototypes to show us, including the famous Commodore LCD. They even hung around out exhibit hall after the panel and after some chocolate chickenhead cake. One of them, Haynie, joined us for the official VCF Dinner that night. Speaking of dinner: the bill was $555.58. If only someone hadn?t drank that last three cents of beer ! Today was just as much fun. We had how-to lectures, we learned the history of CPM, we heard all about Jeri E.?s toy-making experiences and there?s a picture of someone posing next to our museum?s chip collection. Meanwhile the collecting guru Sellam told some secrets which I?m not going to share here except for this one: when pushing an 8-foot-tall rack, be alert for unstable monitors on top. (Hopefully there won?t be a scar.) My LEAST favorite part of any VCF is tearing down at the end of the weekend. But it had to be done. To ease out of the weekend while keeping out good mood, I went to dinner with Hans and Sellam, had a few beers, and well it?s been a while since I drank three nights in a row. Anyway, the show was terrific. Peddle?s unique hour-long lecture, 20-ish exhibits, attendance in the triple figures, and we even gave a few museum tours. Heck, one guy came all the way from New Zealand. Pics and hopefully some video will be posted soon. Patrick: I now pass the baton to you! From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 10 02:31:45 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:31:45 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FCD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I am curently investigating shipping costs between the UK and US. As collectors we don't need next day delivery but we do need full cover insurance. Don't go away. The cost is not that bad. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 10 June 2007 00:12 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: My sale or swap list (Update) In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FC9 at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, "Rod Smallwood" writes: > VT 420 x1 (-)=20 > LA75 x1 x1 (-) =20 > HP 700 Terminal > HP 2392A Terminal x1 Too bad you're on the wrong side of the pond... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 06:18:39 2007 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 07:18:39 -0400 Subject: VCF East 4 - Wall Township, New Jersey Message-ID: What can I say! Evan and M.A.R.C.H. have put on quite the show so far -> Vintage Computer Faire - East (4). What will happen today? Yesterdays presentation by Chuck Peddle of Commodore fame was music to the ears. Computer pioneers, some heralded, some not, are the reason we all can enjoy and share our passion of classic computing. Forever computing all! Murray-- From dan at partnershipaccounting.com Sun Jun 10 08:47:02 2007 From: dan at partnershipaccounting.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:47:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Free in DC areaou pick up in the MD suburbs (near beltway) or I can meet In-Reply-To: <20070610130212.6F086BA4433@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200706101347.l5ADl2Ii003535@sun.marcal.com> > > Free, you pick up in the MD suburbs (near beltway) or I can meet > you in downtown DC most weekdays: > > * Several hundred new anti-static bags > * Digital PR/S01 portable paper tape reader > * Converter box for above paper tape reader that makes it to RS-232 so you > can plug in a PC > > Drop me an email at "shoppa at trailing-edge.com" if you're interested. > > Tim. > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jun 11 01:22:51 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:22:51 +0100 Subject: Dec CD Drives. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FD2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Before I go to a dealer and maybe get ripped off. Has anybody in the UK got any DEC RRD4x series CD Drives. (Must work with a KZQSA) Rod From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jun 11 01:49:35 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:49:35 +0200 Subject: Dec CD Drives. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FD2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FD2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488462@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Try Swan in Crayford (IIRC). Mention that Henk from The Netherlands tipped you. It might help ... www.swancomp.co.uk I have been in their store just a few weeks ago, and I have seen several RDD42 or RDD43, not sure. They are XM....'s and have a jumper "DEC" or "PC". Cannot remember the mnanufacturer, sorry, but those XM.... were discussed here some time ago, and ago :-) - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > Sent: maandag 11 juni 2007 8:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Dec CD Drives. > > Hi > Before I go to a dealer and maybe get ripped off. Has > anybody in the UK got any DEC RRD4x series CD Drives. (Must > work with a KZQSA) > > Rod > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 11 01:58:54 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:58:54 +0100 Subject: Dec CD Drives. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FD2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004401c7abf5$fab4d240$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Before I go to a dealer and maybe get ripped off. Has anybody in > the UK got any DEC RRD4x series CD Drives. (Must work with a KZQSA) There are two RRD46 in ebay shops right now. ?20 & ?25 inc P+P. Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 11 02:02:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 03:02:50 -0400 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> Message-ID: On Jun 10, 2007, at 11:29 AM, jd wrote: > I do recall some computer equipment that had helium in the > enclosure. At least > that's what the labels said. It makes it lighter! ;) [dave ducks] -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 02:14:53 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 03:14:53 -0400 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> Message-ID: <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 10, 2007, at 11:29 AM, jd wrote: >> I do recall some computer equipment that had helium in the enclosure. >> At least >> that's what the labels said. > > It makes it lighter! ;) [dave ducks] It makes it talk funny! Peace... Sridhar From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jun 11 02:25:41 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:25:41 +0200 Subject: LM309K regulator In-Reply-To: References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9D8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488464@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: zondag 10 juni 2007 18:34 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: LM309K regulator > > > > > >From: "Gooijen, Henk" > > > > >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens dwight elvey > > >Verzonden: zo 10-06-2007 07:23 > > >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >Onderwerp: RE: LM309K regulator > > > > > >>From: Brent Hilpert > > >> > > >>While conversing with another list member about some old > components, > > >>I was reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a > nasty failure > > >>mode of the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of > the) first > > >>integrated > >5V > > >>regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. > > >> > > >>I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - > it's a vague > > >>second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or > elaborate on this? > > >>I've never personally run across problems with them.. > > >>A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like > > >>short-circuit protection and thermal-overload > protection.. ..another device perhaps? > > > > > > > > >Hi > > >Many regulators could not handle significant back voltage. The > > >problem would often occur if the input had a small > capacitor relative > > >to the output and there was a bleader or other load on the > input source. > > >This was common problem with many CMOS circuits. > > >Another problem was input over voltage. Often if ther was a > > >transformer without an input filter capacitor, when the power was > > >turned off, the inductive spike would wipe out the regulator. It > > >seems like negative rail regulators were most suseptible to this. > > >Dwight > > > > > >I would like to hear more about this! I am about to build myself a > >small power supply for -16V. using an LM337T. I know that if > the output > >capacitor is larger than the input filter cap you better put a diode > >connected between the output and input pin, and that for HF > you should > >put small caps (say 10 to 100 nF) with short leads from input to Gnd > >and output to Gnd. > >Never heard about that switch-off spike from the transformer. > >Since that -16V. is the power supply for my RACAL RA.366 panoramic > >adapter I'd hate to see that unit get damaged ... would a VDR across > >the secundary of the transformer help? > > > > thanks, > >- Henk, PA8PDP > > > > Hi Henk > Usually the filter cap on the rectifier is enough to safely > absorb the energy of the transformer. Still, it is something > that you need to check and actually verify. If the range of > line voltages that the unit is to run on put the input > voltage near the maximum of the rating, it needs to be checked. > Where I personally saw this effect was in a unit that had 5 > of the modular power supplies ( linear w/ transformers ) all > wired in parallel. When the switch was turn on and off, the > stored energy in the cores needs to go sumplace, just like > the coil in an ignition system. > What makes it worse is something like a zero cross switch > which would be worse as that is when the maximum energy is in > the cores magnetic field. > We were not able to get the manufacture of the modular power > supplies to solve the problem fast enough so we shipped the > machine but put those varistors on the inputs to clamp the > voltage swing. We learned later that sufficient sized input > caps would also work. For these, one had to make sure that it > wasn't too small as this would actually enhance the spike, as > the capacitor does in an ignition system does, buy reducing > the arcing of the switch contacts. > The diode, as you mentions, was the typical way to solve the > back voltage problem. It is a good idea in most any case. > Dwight > > Thanks Dwight, I will use a large input capacitor and a VDR (varistor) just to be on the safe side. But I will check with a dummy load on the PSU, as I rather not start repairs on the RA.366 ... - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jun 11 04:16:40 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 05:16:40 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Updates to my PDP-11 web site Message-ID: <31843468.1181553400936.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >woodelf wrote: >> Since my collection has changed in the past couple of years (acquired a good many new items, traded/sold some other items), I decided to update my "PDP-11 Collection" page. I've added lots of new pictures. Take a look if you like "DEC Porn", as Jay calls it. >> >> Ashley > >Hey I want real PORN ... How about a nice NUDE 2008 green bar calender? :) > That can be arranged. I have the old calendar printing program and several nudes to choose from. :-) Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jun 11 04:21:01 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 05:21:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Updates to my PDP-11 web site Message-ID: <15864580.1181553661310.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >woodelf wrote: >> Since my collection has changed in the past couple of years (acquired a good many new items, traded/sold some other items), I decided to update my "PDP-11 Collection" page. I've added lots of new pictures. Take a look if you like "DEC Porn", as Jay calls it. > >Look Look Look ... Drool Drool Drool ... >The Dec Computer Lab is new for me. Is that scanned in on bytesavers? >A quick look around does not show it there? I'm not sure if Al has it on bitsavers or not. I have a couple original handbooks for the computer lab and a copy of the teacher's guide. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Jun 11 02:28:43 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:28:43 +0100 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> , <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> Message-ID: <1181546923.4547.16.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 13:58 -0700, jd wrote: > I'm sure nitrogen was more expensive. I remember thinking that it was odd that > common nitrogen was so much more expensive than helium. OFN is quite expensive, but it is very pure and dry (hence the "Oxygen Free" part). We use it for re-inflating suspension spheres on certain cars (Rolls-Royce have gone over to a frankly awful Rover-derived air suspension system now - be prepared for a lot of very cheap Rolls-Royces that sit at a funny angle in ten years time). Gordon From pdp11 at saccade.com Mon Jun 11 05:02:58 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 03:02:58 -0700 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com URL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706111011.l5BAB7Ak022471@keith.ezwind.net> Cool, I hope it takes off. One trivia point. On the "4010" page, the third photo over (B&W, w/hood) is a 4012, not a 4010. I think the graphics specs were the same, but it could do lower-case text (4010 was upper-case only) and it might have had some extended interface options (parallel I/O?). I was an intern at Tektronix around '79-80. Have you ever run across any scraps of info about the Tek 4016, 4081 or 4027? The 4081: Full "workstation" with a 16 bit mini built into a side cabinet, with two cartridge disk packs (roughly RK-05 sized, but the ones that dropped down into a drawer. The CPU was roughly equivalent to an PDP-11/05, but was some off-brand make (DG? Perkin-Elmer?) It had a 4014-style tube driven directly by the CPU. It ran a proprietary RT11-like OS called "GOS". Reportedly the pet project of the son of one of the company founders. The 4016: Big brother of the 4014; the screen was maybe 30% larger - huge. It could easily fit four (maybe five?) columns of text. The flash from the screen erase was probably the equivalent of a chest X-ray (multiple flood guns!). The one I played with was an engineering prototype; not sure they ever left the lab. The 4027: Tek's first attempt at a color raster graphics terminal. Used an under-powered eight bit micro (8085?) to interpret a complex serial command language and draw the graphics. It was slow. Like watching paint dry slow. And big and expensive and heavy. Total market flop. It would be amazing if any of these still exist - they were scarce when I saw them back in Tek's computer graphics glory days. Cheers, jp From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jun 11 09:03:04 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:03:04 -0400 Subject: VCF East 4 - Wall Township, New Jersey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <466D5618.5070707@atarimuseum.com> It was a great show, lots of fun, I will post up photo's and a recap later today of Saturday (I wasn't able to come on Sunday) Curt Murray McCullough wrote: > What can I say! Evan and M.A.R.C.H. have put on quite the show so far -> > Vintage Computer Faire - East (4). What will happen today? > Yesterdays presentation by Chuck Peddle of Commodore fame was music to > the > ears. Computer pioneers, some heralded, some not, are the reason we > all can > enjoy and share our passion of classic computing. > > Forever computing all! > > Murray-- > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 10:06:58 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 11:06:58 -0400 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <466A9B18.5232.2F4C1149@cclist.sydex.com> References: <466AEA9C.2050405@bitsavers.org> <466A9B18.5232.2F4C1149@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6/9/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > OTOH, the VIA SSB chip has a neat mode allowing for interface to a > floppy drive using the parallel port. Interesting - I've done that with a Dell laptop, but I didn't know there was a desktop chipset that could do it. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 10:33:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:33:06 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: References: <466AEA9C.2050405@bitsavers.org>, <466A9B18.5232.2F4C1149@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <466D08C2.191.38C86600@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2007 at 11:06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Interesting - I've done that with a Dell laptop, but I didn't know > there was a desktop chipset that could do it. The line has blurred between "laptop" and "desktop" chipsets--the VIA SSB has several features that are cutomarily associated with the former. Given that laptops/notebooks are gradually displacing traditional desktop machines in the consumer market, it makes sense to produce a chip that has laptop design features but can be used in a desktop system. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 10:40:50 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:40:50 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> Message-ID: >From: jd > >jd wrote: > >[snip] > > > > > IIRC, helium costs less than argon. There's something else about argon >that > > makes it undesireable as an inert gas except for welding. What that is I >do not > > know. > > > >I hear now that argon now costs less. Have yet to see a price list. (Hello? >Air >Products?) > >Not too long ago a 5ft cylinder of 99.995% helium @ 3600psi costs $75.00 >plus >whatever deposit and demurrage, and the same cylinder of 99.95% argon @ >around >1200psi cost around $100.00. There's much more helium in the cylinder than >argon. > >I'm sure nitrogen was more expensive. I remember thinking that it was odd >that >common nitrogen was so much more expensive than helium. > Hi As I said before, helium is a waste biproduct of natural gas. Nitrogen has to be extracted from an air mix. Nitrogen and oxygen boil at almost the same temperature to separating them is expensive. They usually burn off the oxygen first then condense the nitrogen, what remains is mostly argon. Things like CO2 freeze out early. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Play games, earn tickets, get cool prizes. Play now?it's FREE! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink1 From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jun 11 11:08:30 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:08:30 -0700 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com URL In-Reply-To: <200706111011.l5BAB7Ak022471@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200706111011.l5BAB7Ak022471@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: J. Peterson wrote: > The 4081: Full "workstation" with a 16 bit mini built into a > side cabinet, with two cartridge disk packs (roughly RK-05 > sized, but the ones that dropped down into a drawer. The CPU > was roughly equivalent to an PDP-11/05, but was some > off-brand make (DG? Perkin-Elmer?) It had a 4014-style tube > driven directly by the CPU. It ran a proprietary RT11-like OS > called "GOS". Reportedly the pet project of the son of one > of the company founders. > > The Tektronix 4081 used an OEM Interdata 7/16 CPU board set. The disk drives were, IIRC, made by Wangco (a different company than Wang Laboratories). The drives had one fixed platter, and one removable platter, like an RK05F, but definitely different. Can't remember the exact capacity, but 10MB per-platter seems to ring a bell. Most of the systems I worked with had two of these drives. They used a disk cartridge that was similar to that used in a DEC RL01/RL02. The display wasn't driven "directly" by the CPU. There was a secondary graphics processor (designed by Tektronix, using AMD bit-slice technology, IIRC) that interpreted a display list placed into a movable segment of main memory. The CRT had write-through capability, and due to the power of the display list processor, you could do pretty darned good dynamic vector graphics with the thing. The backplane of the machine was Tek-designed, but general bus structure followed the Interdata model. Our group had a hardware engineer in it, who designed a RAMDisk that sat on the bus and used DMA to transfer back and forth between main memory. The bus was rather weird, and they had a heck of a time (even with help from the 4081 group) getting the board to talk. Once it worked, some hacks were made to the OS so that swapping (it was not a VM operating system) would be done to the RAMDisk which really sped things up. The OS and applications were also modified to store temporary files out on the RAMDisk. The OS was indeed called GOS, and was very similar to RT-11. From a programmers standpoint, the Interdata CPU was much more "IBM"-360-like than "DEC PDP-11"-like. I worked for a group within Tektronix called "CAD Development", which was an internal group that designed and wrote CAD software for Tektronix engineering use. We had a couple of 4081's in the group. They had written software for the 4081 that did a respectable job of schematic capture and circuit board design (no auto-route though...that job was left to the Control Data Cyber 73 and an in-house developed routing package called "PIRATE" (no connotation -- the routing software was original), written mostly in Fortran 77 on the Cyber. The 4081 could also generate artwork tapes for a Gerber photoplotter, as well as NC tapes for circuit board drilling/routing. There was a Pascal compiler for the 4081 that I ended up writing some code in. I never cared much for Pascal, but it worked, and it was a lot more productive than writing in assembly (which I also did some of). The disk drives were mounted in the base of the cabinet, and were prone to collecting all kinds of dust and fuzz, which, if not serviced regularly, would inevitably lead to disk crashes. Fortunately, the removable disk seemed more prone the crashes than the fixed disk (makes sense), but when the fixed disk crashed, it was pretty ugly. The machine had a ROM bootloader that allowed booting from a 4051-like cartrige magtape drive, or disk. Installing the OS took a LONG time from cartridge tape. I believe that machines were also able to directly interface to some kind of 9-Track magtape drive (reel-to-reel), and may have been bootable from said device. I know of no currently existing 4081's, but who knows what may be out there. It was definitely an interesting machine. I also heard the rumor that the machine was indeed a pet project of a son of some very-high-ranking Tektronix executive. Can't substantiate it, though. The Tektronix 4081 was used to generate the vector graphics for film of the full-screen graphics used in the original "Battlestar Galactica" TV show. The 4051's with the write-through modification were not fast enough (even when coded in machine code) to generate complex enough graphics, which is why the 4081 was used, because its display list processor made much more complex refreshed raster graphics possible. The 4081 was not actually used on-set, the on-set computers were Tek 4051's. Along with the 4051's there were wall-fulls TM-500 test equipment. Rick Bensene Tektronix Employee from 6/1977 through 9/1990 The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 11 11:56:59 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:56:59 -0700 Subject: Tek 4081 Message-ID: <466D7EDB.2050700@bitsavers.org> > The machine had a ROM bootloader that allowed booting from a 4051-like > cartrige magtape drive, or disk. Installing the OS took a LONG time > from cartridge tape. > The Tektronix 4081 was used to generate the vector graphics for film of > the full-screen graphics used in the original "Battlestar Galactica" TV > show. The 4052 I got from Jim Willing has a large collection of tapes which he claimed contained BG graphics. I'll have to go through them to see if any of them say anything about th 4081 on them. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 11 12:04:14 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:04:14 -0700 Subject: Tek 4027 Message-ID: <466D808E.8060601@bitsavers.org> > I was an intern at Tektronix around '79-80. Have you ever run across > any scraps of info about the Tek 4016, 4081 or 4027? > Used an under-powered eight bit micro (8085?) to interpret > a complex serial command language and draw the graphics. I used one around 1980. Graphics were constructed using a programmable character generator, a la the Intecolor. It was similar to the 4025, which is mono, which I do have info on at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/402x I've been looking for technical/service docs for the 4027 and 411x/412x series for a while now. From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 12:06:27 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free in Philadelphia PA Message-ID: <437219.23253.qm@web55312.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I've got a 10mhz IBM AT With a display (I don't remember if mono or color...I have plenty of each) for the taking. I think it's got at least 640k in it, but may have 512k. I know it has a Hard Drive. Not sure what size. It has a 1.2gb FDD. I don't have an IBM keyboard for it. But I can dig up something compatible. It's for free... so whaddya want? You can also have an original IBM Graphics Printer to go with it. (Epson MX-80 Rebranded). I'm sure I can dig up a printer cable too. It's located in N.E. Philadelphia, PA E-Mail me off list. Al Philadelphia, PA From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 11 12:29:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 11:29:56 -0600 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com URL In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Jun 2007 03:02:58 -0700. <200706111011.l5BAB7Ak022471@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: jp and Rick, did you guys add this information to the wiki? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Jun 11 12:54:27 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:54:27 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C666@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> dwight elvey wrote: The only two things I can think of where mentioned by others. One was thermal conductivity and the other was friction. Helium has almost zero friction. Still, the stuff leaks out of things so fast. Even solid surfaces. I find it funny that it is cheaper than argon. There is a lot of argon but I'd guess the extraction from natural gas, where it is undesired for burning, makes helium cheaper than argon that has to be intentionally removed from air. Two percent of air is argon as I recall. Dwight ------------------- Billy writes: Helium was used in a lot of early fixed disk and drum systems. There were several reasons for helium, but the main one is it gives good flying head support. Less dense than air, it allowed the heads to fly closer. It also offered less resistance than air, hence less power. And there was something about it having less boundary layer pressure at high speed, a good thing when you are trying to increase density. It was a bitch to seal in, so most systems sealed the entire assembly with only I/O cable connectors on the outside surface. I worked on a drum system using helium in the late 1960s and we had to change the cylinder about once a month. The cylinder was 20 cubic feet. One other application I heard of was for high altitude airborne systems. The air was too thin so a positive pressure system was used with helium. Since the application was military, not much was written about it. This was also the same application that used a micro drum (roughly 3 inches long, 1 inch in diameter.). Billy From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 11 13:05:10 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:05:10 -0800 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FCD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FCD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <466D8ED6.8040307@socal.rr.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I am curently investigating shipping costs between the UK and US. > As collectors we don't need next day delivery but we do need full cover > insurance. > > Don't go away. The cost is not that bad. > > Rod I'm looking at LCL oceanic shipping, its Less than Container Load, basically a rectangular box that fits about 20 to a container, has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos is part of the base shipping cost of about $150. As usual lots of quicksand around the treasure, port fees, brokerage, customs, and its a port to port service, not terminal to terminal or door to door without adding a local ground shipper to the mix. Also its targeted to business, not private goods, so some places don't seem to want to even talk to a one time shipper. Complete and accurate paperwork seems essential. It does tend to be SLOW, as in couple weeks transit, with a month or more of sitting on a dock at either end. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 11 13:18:29 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:18:29 -0800 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <200706102119.OAA06137@mist.magic.com> References: <200706102119.OAA06137@mist.magic.com> Message-ID: <466D91F5.8010200@socal.rr.com> James A. Markevitch wrote: >> I do recall some computer equipment that had helium in the enclosure. At least >> that's what the labels said. > > I have a DDC 7301 drive (same manufacturer as Guy's, but different model), > and it is definitely filled with helium. Well, it was filled with helium > 30 years ago ... > > The DDC maintenance manual says it requires oil-free 99.995% pure helium. > The preventive maintenance procedure indicates that the helium tank is > good for about 6 months (dropping from 2200psi to 300psi). > > James Markevitch Just a thought, but while He does leak out of just about everything, unless something is leaking in I suspect its still He around 1 atm. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jun 11 13:23:30 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:23:30 -0400 Subject: VCF East 4 - Wall Township, New Jersey In-Reply-To: <466D5618.5070707@atarimuseum.com> References: <466D5618.5070707@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <466D9322.8070205@atarimuseum.com> I haven't had a chance yet to put together an HTML page with content on the recap of VCF East 4.0 but here are the photo's I had taken on Saturday: http://www.atarimuseum.com/vcf-east-4/ Curt Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > It was a great show, lots of fun, I will post up photo's and a recap > later today of Saturday (I wasn't able to come on Sunday) > > > > Curt > > > Murray McCullough wrote: >> What can I say! Evan and M.A.R.C.H. have put on quite the show so far -> >> Vintage Computer Faire - East (4). What will happen today? >> Yesterdays presentation by Chuck Peddle of Commodore fame was music >> to the >> ears. Computer pioneers, some heralded, some not, are the reason we >> all can >> enjoy and share our passion of classic computing. >> >> Forever computing all! >> >> Murray-- >> > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 13:25:06 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:25:06 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <466D8ED6.8040307@socal.rr.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FCD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <466D8ED6.8040307@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: On 6/11/07, Mike Ford wrote: > I'm looking at LCL oceanic shipping, its Less than Container Load, Interesting service... if I had an acceptable port nearby (Toledo? Cleveland?), I'd consider that for shipping things to/from Christchurch/Lyttleton New Zealand, or perhaps from Mongolia (but the Asian end might prove to be complicated to arrange). > It does tend to be SLOW, as in couple weeks transit, with a month or > more of sitting on a dock at either end. Not as slow as waiting for end-of-the-season parcel mail to get from the South Pole to the States. If I mail myself a 20lb package on, say, 1 Feb, I won't see it at home for a couple of months (it has to wait for the once-a-year cargo vessel to get to McMurdo, departing around 14 Feb, then back to California, where it is unloaded, the mail sent on to SFO, then across the U.S). The wait is even longer if you miss the postal deadline - try off-continent around Halloween, to arrive around Thanksgiving. LCL sounds dandy compared to some of the options I've dealt with. If anyone does get far enough along in the process to evaluate it, I'd like to learn more. -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 14:15:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <479218.66112.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> HA! I JUST WON A VICKI FOR 10 BUCKS! LET'S SEE YOU BEAT THAT! OH, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS?? HMM MAYBE THAT'S A CLUE AS TO HOW OFTEN THEY TURN UP! FREAKING HOSERS ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 11 14:24:14 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070611122222.B48546@shell.lmi.net> [helium] > Dave McGuire wrote: > > It makes it lighter! ;) [dave ducks] in order to get away with lighter duty casters? why not hydrogen? On Mon, 11 Jun 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > It makes it talk funny! Votrax enabled? (which already sounds like "a martian in a tin can") From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 11 14:30:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:30:46 -0400 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <20070611122222.B48546@shell.lmi.net> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> <20070611122222.B48546@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2BFF1ABB-8048-40B9-B762-ADAD0D92B606@neurotica.com> On Jun 11, 2007, at 3:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > [helium] >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> It makes it lighter! ;) [dave ducks] > in order to get away with lighter duty casters? > why not hydrogen? Umm. *BLAM!* > On Mon, 11 Jun 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> It makes it talk funny! > Votrax enabled? (which already sounds like "a martian in a tin can") Ahh, the Votrax. I scored one at a yard sale fifteen years ago. I sure do love that box. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 14:39:23 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: busted Lisa in Australia (eBay) Message-ID: <802166.52447.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-Lisa-2-Good-physical-condition -not-operational_W0QQitemZ110137215609QQihZ001QQcategory Z80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 14:39:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:39:32 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466D91F5.8010200@socal.rr.com> References: <200706102119.OAA06137@mist.magic.com>, <466D91F5.8010200@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <466D4284.14812.39AA0530@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2007 at 10:18, Mike Ford wrote: > Just a thought, but while He does leak out of just about everything, > unless something is leaking in I suspect its still He around 1 atm. It would seem that the partial pressure of He in the atmosphere is much less than one atm, no? So, barring inward leaks, would not a lot less than one atm. of He would be left inside? Perhaps I've disremembered Dalton's Law or just hallucinated (seems to happen more and more as I grow older) that I endured high school physics? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 14:52:26 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:52:26 -0400 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <2BFF1ABB-8048-40B9-B762-ADAD0D92B606@neurotica.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> <20070611122222.B48546@shell.lmi.net> <2BFF1ABB-8048-40B9-B762-ADAD0D92B606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6/11/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > why not hydrogen? > > Umm. *BLAM!* "Have you seen my new "Hindenburg" drive? No... why is it called that? Wait until it warms up..." (or is that "wait until it goes to park its heads"?) -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jun 11 14:56:59 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:56:59 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466D4284.14812.39AA0530@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706102119.OAA06137@mist.magic.com>, <466D91F5.8010200@socal.rr.com> <466D4284.14812.39AA0530@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <466DA90B.6050200@shiresoft.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Jun 2007 at 10:18, Mike Ford wrote: > > >> Just a thought, but while He does leak out of just about everything, >> unless something is leaking in I suspect its still He around 1 atm. >> > > It would seem that the partial pressure of He in the atmosphere is > much less than one atm, no? So, barring inward leaks, would not a > lot less than one atm. of He would be left inside? > > Perhaps I've disremembered Dalton's Law or just hallucinated (seems > to happen more and more as I grow older) that I endured high school > physics? > The docs that I've found on the helium replenishment is that you'll go through a bottle of helium in about 6 months (when it drops from 3300psi to 300psi). It's hooked up to the drive (there are fittings and such) all of the time. Fortunately, the drive I have (6200X) uses nitrogen and the person I got it from said that they never replaced the nitrogen the entire time the drive was in service. -- TTFN - Guy From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 15:24:36 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:24:36 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706111324m32051e0dvf62ba6020cdcd5e7@mail.gmail.com> On 6/9/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Here are the specs as I know them: > > Series: 6200X > Speed: 3450rpm > bits per track: 72000 > access time: 8.7ms > tracks: 64 > unformatted capacity (MB): 0.58 > If there is one head per track and you don't have track to track seek time, what does access time measure? Just curious. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 11 16:04:44 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:04:44 -0400 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> <20070611122222.B48546@shell.lmi.net> <2BFF1ABB-8048-40B9-B762-ADAD0D92B606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <619367A3-D018-40CB-9F7C-EDC40F35E38B@neurotica.com> On Jun 11, 2007, at 3:52 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > why not hydrogen? >> >> Umm. *BLAM!* > > "Have you seen my new "Hindenburg" drive? No... why is it called > that? Wait until it warms up..." > > (or is that "wait until it goes to park its heads"?) *snicker* Salesdroid: "This is our new drive that uses methane gas bearings!" Customer: "What's that smell?!" ... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 16:08:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:08:43 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90706111324m32051e0dvf62ba6020cdcd5e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <1e1fc3e90706111324m32051e0dvf62ba6020cdcd5e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <466D576B.9475.39FBAB50@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2007 at 13:24, Glen Slick wrote: > > Speed: 3450rpm > > bits per track: 72000 > > access time: 8.7ms > If there is one head per track and you don't have track to track seek > time, what does access time measure? Just curious. Normally, this is half the maximum rotational latency. At 3450 r/min, one rev takes 17.4 msec., so access time is half that-- 8.7msec. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 16:24:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:24:56 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <619367A3-D018-40CB-9F7C-EDC40F35E38B@neurotica.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, , <619367A3-D018-40CB-9F7C-EDC40F35E38B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <466D5B38.13714.3A0A81DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2007 at 17:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Salesdroid: "This is our new drive that uses methane gas bearings!" > Customer: "What's that smell?!" Methane is odorless--your local utility adds the stink to it so you can smell a leak instead of simply exploding or suffocating. Now, hydrogen sulfide is another matter... Cheers, Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jun 11 18:31:59 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:31:59 -0700 Subject: Tek 4081 In-Reply-To: <466D7EDB.2050700@bitsavers.org> References: <466D7EDB.2050700@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al wrote: > > The 4052 I got from Jim Willing has a large collection of > tapes which he claimed contained BG graphics. I'll have to go > through them to see if any of them say anything about the 4081 on them. > > Some simple graphics (the 4052 had write-thru) were indeed used on the set, but I thought that these were generated by 4051's with the write-thru modification, and 6800 machine code. I didn't know, though, that the 4052 (which was MUCH faster than the 4051 due to a bit-slice CPU that ran the Motrola 6800 instruction set) was used in Battlestar Galactica. Could very well be, though. Jim knew his stuff -- the tapes may well have been code for BG that ran on the 4052. The 4081 was a completely different architecture than the 4051/4052/4054 -- no code compatibility whatsoever. I also recall that 405x cartridge tapes couldn't be read on the 4081, and vice-versa due to different tape recording formats. Rick From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jun 11 19:08:10 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:08:10 -0700 Subject: DEC CD Drives Message-ID: <68b56e2089dde1403bf326102cf1d818@valleyimplants.com> > Hi > Before I go to a dealer and maybe get ripped off. Has anybody in the > UK got any DEC RRD4x series CD Drives. (Must work with a KZQSA) > > Rod Why not just get one of the plentiful early Toshibas? I have a XM-3101 (same as the Sun SL-CD) that boots my VAX4k2 (KZQSA) VAXstation 3176 (int. SCSI), SPARCstation IPX, IRIS Indigo, etc. etc. From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jun 11 19:18:53 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:18:53 -0700 Subject: Other Tek Terminals and other Tek reminiscing In-Reply-To: <466D808E.8060601@bitsavers.org> References: <466D808E.8060601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Anyone seen a Tektronix 4023? It was Tek's first raster scan (versus Storage Scope) terminal. I think it was all TTL, no microprocessor, but not sure. 80x24 monochrome, white phosphor. It had its own control code set (no ANSI sequences at that time), quite different than the storage-scope terminals. I used at lot of these terminals at Tektronix. They were "computer user" areas sprinkled about in each building and floor. The user areas would have a selection of DVST terminals, which were used mostly for graphics and graphics programming work, and a few 4023's (later 4025's and 4027's). For text work (Fortran or Pascal programming) they were great. Initially, the terminals in the user area were hard-wired back to a giant panel of RS-232 connectors in the computer room, that hooked up to the Modcomp-based serial I/O subsystem for the Control Data Cyber 73. Later, they strung coax through the buildings, and used these interesting little shoe-box sized gizmos that were the forerunner of serial terminal servers. They had two serial ports on them, and talked over the coax to a big box in the computer room that had lots of RS-232 connectors that would be connected to the various computers. The coax network was not ethernet, to my knowledge. They were made by a company called Sytek. When you started a session, you would type in "CALL" followed by a space, then a 4-digit hexidecimal (IIRC -- maybe it was decimal) code for the system that you wanted to connect to, then hit RETURN. It'd connect you over the "network" to the appropriate machine. By then, there were some VAXen (11/780's) running VMS and BSD Unix, along with the old Cyber 73, and a later CDC Cyber-series (maybe a Cyber 176?) machine. Soon, the terminal network spread to Tektronix' new Wilsonville campus. I never worked at Wilsonville, but the had a bunch of DEC PDP-10 systems in their computer room in Wilsonville. I visited the data center there, and found the "CALL" codes for the Sytek network for the PDP-10's written down near a console, and remembered them. I tinkered about trying to get into some of the DEC 10's but never succeeded. I worked as a systems operator (the term used in those days) at the Scientific Computer Center at Tektronix' headquarters in Beaverton, Oregon, from '77 until around '83. I mostly ran the Cybers during day shift at first, then later on night and weekend shifts. The Cybers were amazing, though the '73 was an all-transistorized machine, using core memory designed in the mid-1960's by Seymour Cray and friends. Its design was rather dated by the time I started running the machine, but it was still darned fast for the time. It could easily handle a few hundred simultaneous users under the KRONOS timeshared operating system. I once had the HV power supply in the operator's console of the Cyber 73 (famous dual-tube vector character (and graphics) console) fail catastrophically when I was sitting in front of it. Sparks and little molten balls of metal spewed out of the bottom of the housing for the CRTs onto the keyboard area of the "desk" the console was built into. Fortunately, the chair I was in had wheels, and when I saw the video collapse into a single bright point, then fade out on both tubes, I pushed off the console hard, and missed being burned. It was pretty scary at the time. Tektronix had a fire department dedicated to it, in one corner of the campus. The firemen showed up because the smoke detectors tripped, arming the Halon system. The halon dump was cancelled, but the firemen still came. There were giant (probably 8" tall) power vacuum tubes in the display power supply, and one of them had shorted. The on-site CDC repair guys (there was always at least on one-site during normal business hours, and they were always on call) had to fly in a new power tube, and also replace a bunch of other components. The failure happened in the morning, and the console was back in operation by late afternoon the same day. We had to run the machine from a 4023 terminal that was directly attached to the Cyber. That was "fun". Users used magtape a lot to store their stuff, as disk space was pretty limited (cost-centers had to pay for the disk space and CPU time they used out of their budgets), and there were almost constant requests for magtape mounts. The "emergency" console interface on the 4023 was pretty clunky, and it really slowed things down. The operators were proud of how fast they'd handle tape mount requests. We'd have contests to see who could get a tape found and mounted the fastest, and let the system know it was ready for use. The Cyber 73 had one old 7-Track magtape drive, and two nine-track drives. I think that the 7-Track was 800BPI, and the 9-Tracks could read/write 800BPI and 1200BPI tapes. Enough rambling. All I can say is that I sure had a good time, and learned a tremendous amount working as a "kid" at Tektronix (I started there 3 days after graduating from high school, at 18 years of age). Memories of those times are pretty deeply etched in my mind. The "good old days" of computing, they were. -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 19:45:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:45:26 -0700 Subject: Other Tek Terminals and other Tek reminiscing In-Reply-To: References: <466D808E.8060601@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <466D8A36.9122.3AC20F1C@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2007 at 17:18, Rick Bensene wrote: > let the system know it was ready for use. The Cyber 73 had one old > 7-Track magtape drive, and two nine-track drives. I think that the > 7-Track was 800BPI, and the 9-Tracks could read/write 800BPI and 1200BPI > tapes. The 7-track was probably a 657 (if it was blue-glass type) or 607 if it was a big orange unit. 200-556-800 bpi. The 9-track was likely a 659 (800-1600); I think the later auto-threading 669's could handle 6250 GCR. I almost (the movers were due to come in three days) took a job as project manager in Wilsonville for the Tek Color Graphics Terminal. A little voice in the middle of the night told me that the whole affair didn't smell right--and I opted out the next morning. I later discovered that Tek lost a pile of money on the project and it was probably in deep trouble when I interviewed. Sometimes you go with your gut. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jun 11 21:48:07 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:48:07 -0700 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay Message-ID: >> Are the SGI collectors just out enjoying the nice weather? > > With IRIX a dead end, I don't know how much people are going after > them any more. My pair of O2's (I also have one with the slowest O2 > CPU) are the most impressive workstations I've ever seen, and I'd > love to have an Octane 2, Fuel, or Tezro, but unless I get them > locally for basically nothing I don't see me spending the money to > get one. There's something just, I don't know, wrong about the complaint that IRIX is a dead end on this list. Discontinued, yes, but so is DOMAIN, TSB, OS/8, CP/M ... and yet those machines are still collected/used/discussed here. At this point, VAX OpenVMS is at roughly the same position as IRIX- no new hardware and no major upgrades to VMS. IRIX will be "unofficially supported" by usergroups for quite a while yet-just look at Nekoware. They're still very well made machines, and IRIX has its quirks, but it is a good, stable UNIX implementation (and Indigo Magic is a pretty good UI). I suppose the collectors will get to them (SGI does have a reputation), but for now I'm happy that it's predominantly hobbyists- machines are cheaper that way. I haven't been able to afford a PDP-11, but I have several IRISes. Just think of yourself as being at the forefront. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 23:07:39 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:07:39 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466D4284.14812.39AA0530@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 11 Jun 2007 at 10:18, Mike Ford wrote: > > > Just a thought, but while He does leak out of just about everything, > > unless something is leaking in I suspect its still He around 1 atm. > >It would seem that the partial pressure of He in the atmosphere is >much less than one atm, no? So, barring inward leaks, would not a >lot less than one atm. of He would be left inside? > >Perhaps I've disremembered Dalton's Law or just hallucinated (seems >to happen more and more as I grow older) that I endured high school >physics? > Hi Chuck So long as the leak was small, there would be close to a vacuum inside. So, as Chuck says much less than one atm. If it was a large leak, it would be atmophere with no detectable He. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm From marvin at west.net Mon Jun 11 23:21:41 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:21:41 -0700 Subject: Dry Air Purging on IBM Computers Message-ID: <466E1F55.EC18AD6E@west.net> I was reading an application note about a Puregas heatless dryer, and one of the applications mentioned that some IBM computers require a dry air purge. Does anyone know which computer(s) this is referring to? The URL of the booklet is http://puregas.com/industrial/pdf/Drying_Compressed_Air_Booklet.pdf These things look like they could be useful when small CFM ratings of dry air are required. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 11 23:38:38 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 00:38:38 -0400 Subject: anybody know of a source for these? Message-ID: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> A friend of mine writes: > I find it very interesting that you have all those old IC's and whatnot, > since I restore pinball machines and video games from the 80's/90's. I > looked over your list, but you state on the page it isn't complete. Any > chance you have UDN7180 IC's? I don't have any of these, and didn't know what they were, so when I asked he said: > UDN7180 is a plasma display driver. It's used in solid state pinball > machines with 7 segment orange plasma displays. They have a tendency to blow > themselves up from time to time, so I'm always on the lookout for a few. Anybody know of any of these? Have some maybe? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Jun 12 00:51:52 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 22:51:52 -0700 Subject: anybody know of a source for these? In-Reply-To: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5ba001c7acb5$c6da1eb0$0901a8c0@liberator> http://lupinesystems.com/download/ has a circuit board that they designed to replace that IC. And http://www.arcadechips.com/product_info.php?products_id=79 is a source for the chip (at $20 ish a pop currently) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 9:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: anybody know of a source for these? A friend of mine writes: > I find it very interesting that you have all those old IC's and whatnot, > since I restore pinball machines and video games from the 80's/90's. I > looked over your list, but you state on the page it isn't complete. Any > chance you have UDN7180 IC's? I don't have any of these, and didn't know what they were, so when I asked he said: > UDN7180 is a plasma display driver. It's used in solid state pinball > machines with 7 segment orange plasma displays. They have a tendency to blow > themselves up from time to time, so I'm always on the lookout for a few. Anybody know of any of these? Have some maybe? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 12 02:01:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 03:01:50 -0400 Subject: PDP/Cray swap? Message-ID: Is anyone in the US interested in possibly swapping some PDP gear (lights-n-switches PDP-11, or non-E/non-A PDP-8) for some (functional/ complete/runnable) Cray hardware? My income is limited at the moment, so shipping/driving would be difficult, but am willing to negotiate otherwise. Interested? Contact me off list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 12 04:19:01 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:19:01 +0100 Subject: DEC CD Drives Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDB@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I managed to locate an RRD42-AA (ie real Dec for 14 Pounds UK (27 Dollars US)) I aready have a Yamaha SCSI drive in an external powered case. I also managed to locate the correct cable. (50 Way Centronics male to 50 way D type male double density pins and clip type) This fits the SCSI connector on the back of the external box and the other (big) end goes into the KZQSA So... When the cable arrives try the Yamaha drive. If its no good. Then remove the Yamaha drive from its box and replace with the RRD42. This way I end up with one or maybe two working SCSI drives. Regards Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Scott Quinn Sent: 12 June 2007 01:08 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DEC CD Drives > Hi > Before I go to a dealer and maybe get ripped off. Has anybody in > the UK got any DEC RRD4x series CD Drives. (Must work with a KZQSA) > > Rod Why not just get one of the plentiful early Toshibas? I have a XM-3101 (same as the Sun SL-CD) that boots my VAX4k2 (KZQSA) VAXstation 3176 (int. SCSI), SPARCstation IPX, IRIS Indigo, etc. etc. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 12 04:36:31 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:36:31 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well if you if you will pardon the expression, "Its heading in the right direction" I agree, the charges build up is a bit of an unknown. > 'has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos' That seems to be a lot of weight in a small space. Port to port is less of a problem for me as the UK is that much smaller than the US. I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. Thers a good chance that there's a service from US east coast ports to UK west/south ports. So... Boston to Liverpool or Southampton New York to Liverpool or Southampton. Etc. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ford Sent: 11 June 2007 19:05 To: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: My sale or swap list (Update) Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I am curently investigating shipping costs between the UK and US. > As collectors we don't need next day delivery but we do need full > cover insurance. > > Don't go away. The cost is not that bad. > > Rod I'm looking at LCL oceanic shipping, its Less than Container Load, basically a rectangular box that fits about 20 to a container, has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos is part of the base shipping cost of about $150. As usual lots of quicksand around the treasure, port fees, brokerage, customs, and its a port to port service, not terminal to terminal or door to door without adding a local ground shipper to the mix. Also its targeted to business, not private goods, so some places don't seem to want to even talk to a one time shipper. Complete and accurate paperwork seems essential. It does tend to be SLOW, as in couple weeks transit, with a month or more of sitting on a dock at either end. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 07:33:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:33:27 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On 6/12/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > 'has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos' > That seems to be a lot of weight in a small space. Last time I checked, water was 1000 kilos per cubic meter, so the base charge seems to be centered around the density of water. > Port to port is less of a problem for me as the UK is that much smaller > than the US. > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. Indeed. Being in the mid-west, we don't think about ports much. I can drive to NYC in under 14 hours. Boston is farther. I think the closest Atlantic port, drive time, would be Baltimore at around, IIRC, 9 hours. Lake Erie ports are close (2ish hours), but would almost certainly require a shifting of the load to another vessel at an Atlantic port somewhere. -ethan From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jun 12 08:10:56 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:10:56 -0400 Subject: Update - S-100 Proto board design available online - pcb image and cad image Message-ID: <466E9B60.1070907@comcast.net> I've been working on a S-100 proto board design recently. I like to say thanks for all the suggestions that everyone sent. I updated the page to include images of the pcb design and the cad design(3D) Anyone else that might be interested in this, I can add your name to the list on there. You can see the current work on my homepage. http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/rog.html =Dan -- [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Jun 12 08:56:32 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:56:32 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <29169743.1181656592562.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> A couple of months ago I acquired a strange looking terminal that was said to be a VT50 Decscope. A picture of it can be found on my web site at: http://www.woffordwitch.com/VT50.asp The case looks like it was cast in pieces from a rough mold of a standard VT50. Many of the key caps are not the usual color, and look more like the key caps on the earlier VT05. I have not opened it up and studied the inside yet to see if it has the proper "guts" of a VT50. The previous owner said that he worked for DEC back in the 1970s, and they gave this "VT50" to him to use at home so that he could remotely connect to a system at work. Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever seen or heard of anything like this? Thanks, Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jun 12 09:46:50 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:46:50 -0400 Subject: Rough batch of 2007 VCFE Pictures... Message-ID: No captions, no thumbnails, no bad shots removed... http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/vcfe2007/ Use the bandwidth at your own risk. Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/844 - Release Date: 6/11/2007 5:10 PM From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 10:35:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:35:12 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:36:31 +0100. <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, "Rod Smallwood" writes: > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 10:38:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:38:07 -0600 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:56:32 -0400. <29169743.1181656592562.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: In article <29169743.1181656592562.JavaMail.root at elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, Ashley Carder writes: > Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever > seen or heard of anything like this? I saw one of these for sale on ebay recently, advertised as a VT52. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 10:55:09 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:55:09 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <466EC1DD.10001@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, > "Rod Smallwood" writes: > >> I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) What's the closest (in time, not distance) port for you? Vallejo? Richmond? If so, a good portion of your drive time would be traffic, I would think. Peace... Sridhar From vrs at msn.com Tue Jun 12 11:05:39 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:05:39 -0700 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope References: <29169743.1181656592562.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <02d101c7ad0b$860a83b0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Ashley Carder": > Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever > seen or heard of anything like this? A friend of mine who is a former DEC employee once told me a war story about being given a "prototype" terminal to take home. He said the PCBs were thin, and kind of flexible, like the cardboard sheets in the back of a tablet of paper, and the thing was very tempermental -- even after you got it working again the MTBF was in hours. He said he eventually threw the accursed thing away. I wonder if this is one of those? Vince From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 12 11:06:58 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:06:58 -0600 Subject: anybody know of a source for these? In-Reply-To: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <466EC4A2.1080408@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> UDN7180 is a plasma display driver. It's used in solid state pinball >> machines with 7 segment orange plasma displays. They have a tendency to blow >> themselves up from time to time, so I'm always on the lookout for a few. > > Anybody know of any of these? Have some maybe? Try Sphere - they may have some. http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies.html#catalog From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 12 11:39:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706121642.MAA21630@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> 'has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos' > That seems to be a lot of weight in a small space. 1000kg/m^3 is approximately the density of water: one gram per millilitre. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 11:44:38 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:44:38 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:55:09 -0400. <466EC1DD.10001@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <466EC1DD.10001 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> , > > "Rod Smallwood" writes: > > > >> I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > > > It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) > > What's the closest (in time, not distance) port for you? Vallejo? > Richmond? San Francisco Bay Area > If so, a good portion of your drive time would be traffic, I > would think. Traffic only starts to show up around Sacramento. I'm 750+ miles from the coast. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jim at photojim.ca Tue Jun 12 11:47:22 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:47:22 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706121642.MAA21630@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <019501c7ad11$59786460$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "der Mouse" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 10:39 AM Subject: Re: My sale or swap list (Update) > 1000kg/m^3 is approximately the density of water: one gram per > millilitre. Precisely, even, if memory serves. I believe that the kilogram is defined as the weight of one litre of water at a certain pressure and temperature. Jim From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Jun 12 12:05:19 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:05:19 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <200706121642.MAA21630@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070612130243.038a6778@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that der Mouse may have mentioned these words: > >> 'has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos' > > That seems to be a lot of weight in a small space. > >1000kg/m^3 is approximately the density of water: one gram per >millilitre. Considering the fact that the vessel the cargo will be travelling on will be displacing water to function, it seems logical to me that their billing structure would be based on that particular density to ensure the business stays afloat. [[ Pun intended. ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 12 12:01:00 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:01:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <019501c7ad11$59786460$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706121642.MAA21630@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <019501c7ad11$59786460$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <200706121707.NAA22017@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> 1000kg/m^3 is approximately the density of water: one gram per >> millilitre. > Precisely, even, if memory serves. I believe that the kilogram is > defined as the weight of one litre of water at a certain pressure and > temperature. Well, it'd be the *mass* of, not the *weight* of. But that aside, I thought the kilogram was still defined as the mass of a certain piece of metal kept at the BIPM in S?vres? Wikipedia certainly thinks so (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram).... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 12 12:12:56 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:12:56 -0400 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 10 June 2007 16:15, Tony Duell wrote: > Anyway, from what I remeber, the controller card is based round a 6802 > processor [1]. The actual disk contorller chip, anohter 40 pin device, is > made by Fujitsu, and has the same pinout as the 1793 _apart from being > +5V supply only_. I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is that it by any chance? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Jun 12 12:24:28 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:24:28 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <20682726.1181669068833.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever >> seen or heard of anything like this? > >A friend of mine who is a former DEC employee once told me a war story >about being given a "prototype" terminal to take home. He said the PCBs >were thin, and kind of flexible, like the cardboard sheets in the back of a >tablet of paper, and the thing was very tempermental -- even after you got >it working again the MTBF was in hours. He said he eventually threw the >accursed thing away. > >I wonder if this is one of those? > > Vince It looks like some kind of prototype. I'll open it up tonight or tomorrow to see what it looks like on the inside. I'll try to get some more pictures. Here's what the previous owner told me when I asked him about it. It sounds like it worked for him for 6 years. "I worked for DEC in the late 70's early 80's as a software engineer on the PDP10/PDP20 mainframe computers. I was given this terminal so I could work from home. When I left DEC they did not want the terminal back. So I've had it all these years. We plan to sell our house so I am doing some major house cleaning, selling on Ebay, garage sale, etc. I would say the last time it was used was around 1984. I used it frequently for about 6 years, so 1978->1984. Has not been plugged in since 1984!" Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Jun 12 12:27:49 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:27:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <6532665.1181669269700.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever seen or heard of anything like this? Richard said: >I saw one of these for sale on ebay recently, advertised as a VT52. This is the one that was on ebay. It was listed as a VT50. It also came with the VT50 engineering prints and a VT50 manual. Ashley From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 12:32:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:32:11 -0700 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <466E762B.30771.3E5BC2FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2007 at 13:12, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is that > it by any chance? The drawer in my parts locker labeled "WD1793" has a number of MB8877s. They're the same. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 12 12:32:41 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:32:41 -0400 Subject: anybody know of a source for these? In-Reply-To: <5ba001c7acb5$c6da1eb0$0901a8c0@liberator> References: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> <5ba001c7acb5$c6da1eb0$0901a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <200706121332.42123.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 12 June 2007 01:51, Geoff Reed wrote: > http://lupinesystems.com/download/ has a circuit board that they designed > to replace that IC. > > And http://www.arcadechips.com/product_info.php?products_id=79 is a source > for the chip (at $20 ish a pop currently) Thanks, I've passed that along to him... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 9:39 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: anybody know of a source for these? > > A friend of mine writes: > > I find it very interesting that you have all those old IC's and whatnot, > > since I restore pinball machines and video games from the 80's/90's. I > > looked over your list, but you state on the page it isn't complete. Any > > chance you have UDN7180 IC's? > > I don't have any of these, and didn't know what they were, so when I > asked > > he said: > > UDN7180 is a plasma display driver. It's used in solid state pinball > > machines with 7 segment orange plasma displays. They have a tendency to > > blow > > > themselves up from time to time, so I'm always on the lookout for a few. > > Anybody know of any of these? Have some maybe? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 12 12:46:32 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:46:32 -0400 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <466E762B.30771.3E5BC2FF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> <466E762B.30771.3E5BC2FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706121346.32650.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 12 June 2007 13:32, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Jun 2007 at 13:12, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is > > that it by any chance? > > The drawer in my parts locker labeled "WD1793" has a number of > MB8877s. They're the same. I think I first ran into that working on the Osborne 1. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Tue Jun 12 13:40:13 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:40:13 -0400 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 Message-ID: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Hi all-- I'm doing some work on promoting Netrek, and it's gotton me interested in the following qualities: graphical (incl. ascii graphics) action (real-time-ish) multiplayer, by which I mean 3 or more wide area on the internet teams leagues and guilds If anyone can help with the following questions or add material, that'd be great... I've got the following timeline points: 1972 - Alto Trek probably first networked game multiplayer 1973 (Fall) - Empire II on the PLATO system not networked, but a wide-area multiplayer action game from graphic terminals did not clock like a modern game; players called for their own screen updates manually 1974 - MazeWar, probably second networked game ? XNS/PUP, right? first First Person Shooter first use of Avatars (enemy players appeared as walking eyeballs. I don't count ships as Avatars) first level mapping first or second rendered 3D perspective graphics (Spasim may have been first on this) ? In 1993, SGI did a Mazewar demo at Interop, with workstations placed around the show, So at some point, MazeWar became playable on a routed TCP/IP network. When? 1981 - Empire tournament play starts 1983 Jan - flag day; NCP turned off, net goes TCP/IP 1983 - SGI Dogfight (aka fight) ? I think the first game with its own Internet client-server protocol? ? Did Mazewar get there first? It was client-server and not peer- to-peer, right? ? I also think it was LAN-only, using broadcast UDP? I've also heard it was originally XNS, but there's a well-known UDP port for it, so when did it switch? I believe that while it was possible to choose to play in ? cooperation, the game itself did not have teams per se? 1985 - X Window System 10 ships 1986 - Xtrek, descendant of PLATO Empire ? first X-Windows thrown-display game? 1988 - Xtrek II: Netrek ? second client-server game? ? first client-server team game? ? first client-server game with routeable protocol? 1991 - Netrek league play starts So, what am I missing? 1974 to 1983 seems like too long a gap for there to have been no ARPAnet graphic action games... there were many PLATO games during that timeframe, and an IBM space battle game of some sort. Also probably military simulators. Thanks all! From bfoley at compsoc.nuigalway.ie Tue Jun 12 14:14:11 2007 From: bfoley at compsoc.nuigalway.ie (Brian Foley) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:14:11 +0100 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> On Tue, Jun 12, 2007 at 02:40:13PM -0400, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > Hi all-- > > I'm doing some work on promoting Netrek, and it's gotton > me interested in the following qualities: > graphical (incl. ascii graphics) > action (real-time-ish) > multiplayer, by which I mean 3 or more > wide area > on the internet > teams > leagues and guilds There's also Bolo, a networked tank game for the BBC Micro written in 1987. Stuart Cheshire's thesis on the subject can be read at http://www.lgm.com/bolo/guides/dissertation/ Cheers, Brian. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 12 14:13:06 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <200706121916.PAA23720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 1973 (Fall) - Empire II on the PLATO system > not networked, but a wide-area multiplayer action game from > graphic terminals > did not clock like a modern game; players called for their own > screen updates manually I played 0empire on PLATO sometime around '77 or so, and that description is not quite right for the game I played: you could ask for an update manually (and usually did, especially during firefights), but if you just let it sit, it would refresh on a timer every once in a while (five seconds? I forget). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 14:12:57 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:12:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jun 12, 7 01:12:56 pm Message-ID: > > On Sunday 10 June 2007 16:15, Tony Duell wrote: > > Anyway, from what I remeber, the controller card is based round a 6802 > > processor [1]. The actual disk contorller chip, anohter 40 pin device, = > is > > made by Fujitsu, and has the same pinout as the 1793 _apart from being > > +5V supply only_. > > I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is= > that=20 > it by any chance? That number rigns bells with me too, now that you've mentioned it, but I wouldn't put my life on it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 14:15:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:15:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <466E762B.30771.3E5BC2FF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 12, 7 10:32:11 am Message-ID: > > On 12 Jun 2007 at 13:12, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is that > > it by any chance? > > The drawer in my parts locker labeled "WD1793" has a number of > MB8877s. They're the same. Are you 100% sure of that? I was udner the impression that the WD p[art needed some -ve supplu rail (-12V?) and that the Fujitsu part didn't, the pin was a N/C. The Fujistu chip will replace the WD with no problems, but the reverse may not be true (and IIRC, the HP board that started this doesn't have a -ve supply rail). -tony From pdp11 at saccade.com Tue Jun 12 14:21:58 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:21:58 -0700 Subject: Tek 4081 In-Reply-To: <466D7EDB.2050700@bitsavers.org> References: <466D7EDB.2050700@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200706121922.l5CJMYEm041970@keith.ezwind.net> >I've been looking for technical/service docs for the 4027 and >411x/412x series for a while now. A recent attempt with Google found this page: http://www.surplussales.com/Manuals/man_tek.html That claims to have 402x, 405x and 4081 manuals. The prices are pretty alarming though. >...but when the fixed disk crashed, it was pretty ugly. The >machine had a ROM bootloader that allowed booting from a 4051-like >cartrige magtape drive, or disk. Installing the OS took a LONG time >from cartridge tape. Most vivid GOS memory: The FORTRAN library used the classic six-letters-or-less "license plate" naming conventions. The name for the routine to create and open a new file was just one or two letters different from the routine to format and initialize a volume. You can see what's coming. "Gee this is taking a long time to run...maybe it's hung?...better try rebooting...uh oh...". I think it qualifies as my worst source code typo. Cheers, jp From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jun 12 14:38:02 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:38:02 -0400 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <466EF61A.7090303@atarimuseum.com> I played Conquest quite a bit on the Vax in college, that played through the VT100 terminals with refreshing the graphics on the screen for animation (ships turning, shots fired, etc...) We'd get like 10 or more people on after hours in the computer labs in Manhattan and Old Westbury and we'd essentially bring the Vax to its knee's ;-) Curt Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > Hi all-- > > I'm doing some work on promoting Netrek, and it's gotton > me interested in the following qualities: > graphical (incl. ascii graphics) > action (real-time-ish) > multiplayer, by which I mean 3 or more > wide area > on the internet > teams > leagues and guilds > > > If anyone can help with the following questions or add material, > that'd be great... > > > I've got the following timeline points: > 1972 - Alto Trek > probably first networked game > multiplayer > 1973 (Fall) - Empire II on the PLATO system > not networked, but a wide-area multiplayer action game from > graphic terminals > did not clock like a modern game; players called for their own > screen updates manually > 1974 - MazeWar, probably second networked game > ? XNS/PUP, right? > first First Person Shooter > first use of Avatars (enemy players appeared as walking > eyeballs. I don't count ships as Avatars) > first level mapping > first or second rendered 3D perspective graphics (Spasim may > have been first on this) > ? In 1993, SGI did a Mazewar demo at Interop, with > workstations placed around the show, > So at some point, MazeWar became playable on a routed TCP/IP > network. When? > 1981 - Empire tournament play starts > 1983 Jan - flag day; NCP turned off, net goes TCP/IP > 1983 - SGI Dogfight (aka fight) > ? I think the first game with its own Internet client-server > protocol? > ? Did Mazewar get there first? It was client-server and not peer- > to-peer, right? > ? I also think it was LAN-only, using broadcast UDP? I've also heard > it was originally XNS, but there's a well-known UDP port for it, > so when did it switch? > I believe that while it was possible to choose to play in > ? cooperation, the game itself did not have teams per se? > 1985 - X Window System 10 ships > 1986 - Xtrek, descendant of PLATO Empire > ? first X-Windows thrown-display game? > 1988 - Xtrek II: Netrek > ? second client-server game? > ? first client-server team game? > ? first client-server game with routeable protocol? > 1991 - Netrek league play starts > > So, what am I missing? > > 1974 to 1983 seems like too long a gap for there to have been > no ARPAnet graphic action games... there were many PLATO games > during that timeframe, and an IBM space battle game of some sort. > > Also probably military simulators. > > Thanks all! > > > From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Tue Jun 12 14:50:25 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:50:25 -0400 Subject: classic computer rescue squad Message-ID: <0qsl8xymta.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Hi-- I'm seeing posts here about systems to be rescued, but often no replies. The classic computer rescue squad pages have no listings later than 2005. This is a high-bandwidth list that people interested in old systems can't neccessarily keep up with. Could we get a seperate list going just for rescue listings, and have either cctech or cctalk as a subscriber? That way, folks interested only in seeing systems listings could see them and maybe rescue systems. Thoughts? --akb From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 12 15:04:24 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:04:24 +0100 Subject: Tek 4081 In-Reply-To: <200706121922.l5CJMYEm041970@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <001801c7ad2c$e10c8990$2e04010a@uatempname> J. Peterson wrote: > Most vivid GOS memory: The FORTRAN library used the classic > six-letters-or-less "license plate" naming conventions. The name for > the routine to create and open a new file was just one or two letters > different from the routine to format and initialize a volume. You > can see what's coming. "Gee this is taking a long time to > run...maybe it's hung?...better try rebooting...uh oh...". I think > it qualifies as my worst source code typo. As long as your source file was on that volume, at least your butt was well and truyly covered :-) Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 15:13:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:13:29 -0700 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: References: <466E762B.30771.3E5BC2FF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 12, 7 10:32:11 am, Message-ID: <466E9BF9.21117.3EEF74FD@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2007 at 20:15, Tony Duell wrote: > Are you 100% sure of that? I was udner the impression that the WD p[art > needed some -ve supplu rail (-12V?) and that the Fujitsu part didn't, the > pin was a N/C. The Fujistu chip will replace the WD with no problems, but > the reverse may not be true (and IIRC, the HP board that started this > doesn't have a -ve supply rail). I should be more careful in my writing. The WD1793 takes a +12 and +5 supplies, while the MB8877 requires only +5 (the other pin is NC). A MB8877 will replace a WD1793, but not necessarily vice-versa. In my particular situation, I've replaced WD1793s with MB8877s, never the other way around. Thanks for catching that. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 12 15:16:13 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:16:13 -0500 Subject: classic computer rescue squad References: <0qsl8xymta.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <007c01c7ad2e$8903d8a0$6600a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > Could we get a seperate list going just for rescue listings, > and have either cctech or cctalk as a subscriber? Since the CCRS wasn't maintained, and I tried for well over a year to get in touch with Bill Y with no results, we went ahead and put a new/replacement online CCRS together for the classiccmp website. It hasn't been made live yet.... :\ Jay From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 12 15:18:04 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:18:04 -0700 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 Message-ID: <466EFF7C.3060900@bitsavers.org> 1972 - Alto Trek probably first networked game nope.. 1972 is WAY off. Docs at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/alto/trek21.pdf Trek was developed at the Univ of Rochester, who would not have gotten any machines as part of the university grant til the late 70's. 1974 - MazeWar, probably second networked game ? XNS/PUP, right? PUP, not XNS. Closer to being the first networked game (but NOT on the Alto) http://www.digibarn.com/collections/games/xerox-maze-war/index.html IMLAC version predates it, 76-77 at PARC From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 15:36:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:36:12 -0600 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:27:49 -0400. <6532665.1181669269700.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: In article <6532665.1181669269700.JavaMail.root at elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, Ashley Carder writes: > Richard said: > >I saw one of these for sale on ebay recently, advertised as a VT52. > > > This is the one that was on ebay. It was listed as a VT50. It also came wit h the VT50 engineering prints and a VT50 manual. Ah, my fuzzy memory then. So you're the one who snagged that away from me :-) (Actually, I think I got too busy to bid on it, I can't remember exactly. I'm getting old.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 15:39:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:39:35 -0600 Subject: Tek 4081 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:21:58 -0700. <200706121922.l5CJMYEm041970@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <200706121922.l5CJMYEm041970 at keith.ezwind.net>, "J. Peterson" writes: > > >I've been looking for technical/service docs for the 4027 and > >411x/412x series for a while now. > > A recent attempt with Google found this page: > > http://www.surplussales.com/Manuals/man_tek.html > > That claims to have 402x, 405x and 4081 manuals. The prices are > pretty alarming though. Try this place: -- they are located in Salt Lake City and have the operator and service manuals for the 4027 at a cheaper price, although the service manual is still $165. They also have manuals for the 4051. I haven't used them, but I've been meaning to drop by their location since they're local. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 12 15:53:57 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:53:57 -0700 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706121642.MAA21630@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <019501c7ad11$59786460$1802a8c0@JIMM> <200706121707.NAA22017@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <466F07E5.FCDFF136@cs.ubc.ca> der Mouse wrote: > > >> 1000kg/m^3 is approximately the density of water: one gram per > >> millilitre. > > Precisely, even, if memory serves. I believe that the kilogram is > > defined as the weight of one litre of water at a certain pressure and > > temperature. > > Well, it'd be the *mass* of, not the *weight* of. But that aside, I > thought the kilogram was still defined as the mass of a certain piece > of metal kept at the BIPM in S?vres? Wikipedia certainly thinks so > (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram).... I believe that definition (piece of metal) is more recent, while the original definition from the 1700-or-1800s was 1 litre = volume of 1 cubic decimetre 1 kilogram = mass of 1 litre of water at STP From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 12 15:55:20 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:55:20 -0700 Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont Message-ID: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> Last night on the CBC TV news there was an item about a decommissioned underground NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont. and how the Cdn gov/DoD is trying to figure out what to do with it. The control room is still filled with equipment, including SAGE-style-or-era video consoles (not sure that they were SAGE, the camera went by too quickly). There was also a camera shot of what appeared to be some other desk-style computer console. The reporter referred to the place as being 'filled with obsolete equipment', the rest of the systems are presumably still there too. .. now that would be a rescue .. one can dream, but it'll probably all end up in the scrap bins. Perhaps somebody nearby should start making inquiries. Does anybody with a background in SAGE know whether that bunker was part of SAGE, or what systems would be in there? I've never been really clear on how the SAGE / DEW line / other NORAD systems related to each other or overlapped/interconnected in operations or equipment. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 16:02:16 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:02:16 -0700 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <466EF61A.7090303@atarimuseum.com> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <466EF61A.7090303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706121402u5cbdb199i5c428fb2be699211@mail.gmail.com> Anyone ever see a game that I think was called "Monster" that ran on a Tektronix vector storage terminal around the late 1970's time period? I believe it was hosted on a Honeywell mainframe they had a UAA (AK). >From what I remember the player was randomly positioned somewhere in 2-D space, along with various "monsters" and suns and black holes and maybe anti-gravity objects. You input angle and velocity from your position and tried to hit the monsters and it would plot the trajectory around and into the various objects. It was one of the first computer graphic games I ever saw and it was pretty cool at the time, although pretty simple as I think about it now. -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 16:16:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:16:54 -0600 Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:55:20 -0700. <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: If it has SAGE gear, I volunteer to fly up and help with any dismantling/packing/crating/preserving! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 12 16:47:42 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:47:42 -0700 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale References: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> <075D91BF-4792-427E-B71F-3B3FDC2AC8FE@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <466F147E.DA545B71@cs.ubc.ca> Speaking of rescues, was there any word or resolution on that warehouse full of stuff up here (Vancouver/Burnaby, B.C.) from a couple of weeks ago? From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 16:59:55 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:59:55 -0500 Subject: Visiting San Jose area Message-ID: <51ea77730706121459n6745f506ob0f48962ad6ac055@mail.gmail.com> Hello all - I'm heading out tomorrow on a work trip to San Jose, CA and may have about a day for some personal adventuring. Top of my list is the CHM, of course, having never been there. What other landmarks, stores, shops, signs or holes in the ground are worth seeing out that way? I will be flying, so if I pick up anything interesting I'll be paying to ship it back :) -j -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 17:02:39 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:02:39 -0500 Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont In-Reply-To: References: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <624966d60706121502x4b2bb362se9cc68211ed7bc36@mail.gmail.com> I worked on an ANFSQ7 (SAGE) and I believe that North Bay was the only one still active in Canada at that time. PZaul Anderson On 6/12/07, Richard wrote: > > If it has SAGE gear, I volunteer to fly up and help with any > dismantling/packing/crating/preserving! > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From evan at snarc.net Tue Jun 12 17:08:09 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 18:08:09 -0400 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706121459n6745f506ob0f48962ad6ac055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. And of course there's the Digibarn (appointment required) and the Intel Museum. -----Original Message----- From: Jason T [mailto:silent700 at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Visiting San Jose area Hello all - I'm heading out tomorrow on a work trip to San Jose, CA and may have about a day for some personal adventuring. Top of my list is the CHM, of course, having never been there. What other landmarks, stores, shops, signs or holes in the ground are worth seeing out that way? I will be flying, so if I pick up anything interesting I'll be paying to ship it back :) -j -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jun 12 17:12:14 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 18:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont In-Reply-To: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> References: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jun 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Does anybody with a background in SAGE know whether that bunker was part of > SAGE, or what systems would be in there? I've never been really clear on how > the SAGE / DEW line / other NORAD systems related to each other or > overlapped/interconnected in operations or equipment. I don't know what you saw, but North Bay definitely housed a SAGE system at one time. Online info says that some of the equipment from North Bay is at the Computer History Museum. http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/TheCompMusRep/TCMR-V04.html http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/199805/msg00023.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jun 12 17:22:22 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:22:22 -0700 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> References: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. And of course there's the > Digibarn (appointment required) and the Intel Museum. > If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my shop (although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile away. Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason T [mailto:silent700 at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:00 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Visiting San Jose area > > Hello all - I'm heading out tomorrow on a work trip to San Jose, CA > and may have about a day for some personal adventuring. Top of my > list is the CHM, of course, having never been there. What other > landmarks, stores, shops, signs or holes in the ground are worth > seeing out that way? > > I will be flying, so if I pick up anything interesting I'll be paying > to ship it back :) > > -j > > -- TTFN - Guy From medavidson at mac.com Tue Jun 12 17:32:16 2007 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:32:16 -0700 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> References: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <19475519-D601-4858-A5C2-619A31628B9D@mac.com> Just an additional note... On Jun 12, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. And of course there's the >> Digibarn (appointment required) and the Intel Museum. >> > > If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my > shop (although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile > away. Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) I *highly* recommend visiting Guy's shop... it's amazing! Mark From evan at snarc.net Tue Jun 12 18:35:45 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 19:35:45 -0400 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <19475519-D601-4858-A5C2-619A31628B9D@mac.com> Message-ID: <000401c7ad4a$662eb270$6401a8c0@evan> Ooh, good point! It's amazing indeed. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Davidson [mailto:medavidson at mac.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: General at shiresoft.com Subject: Re: Visiting San Jose area Just an additional note... On Jun 12, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. And of course there's the >> Digibarn (appointment required) and the Intel Museum. >> > > If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my > shop (although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile > away. Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) I *highly* recommend visiting Guy's shop... it's amazing! Mark From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 18:42:12 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 19:42:12 -0400 Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont In-Reply-To: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> References: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I've never been really clear on how > the SAGE / DEW line / other NORAD systems related to each other or > overlapped/interconnected in operations or equipment. SAGE was the whole system - computers, radar, radios, modems and all. Nitpick. Anyway, look at Ed Thelen's website. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 12 18:42:48 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: classic computer rescue squad In-Reply-To: <0qsl8xymta.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> from "Andrew K. Bressen" at Jun 12, 2007 03:50:25 PM Message-ID: <200706122342.l5CNgmcP022043@onyx.spiritone.com> > I'm seeing posts here about systems to be rescued, but often no replies. > The classic computer rescue squad pages have no listings later than 2005. > This is a high-bandwidth list that people interested in old systems > can't neccessarily keep up with. > > Could we get a seperate list going just for rescue listings, > and have either cctech or cctalk as a subscriber? That way, > folks interested only in seeing systems listings could see them > and maybe rescue systems. > > Thoughts? > > --akb I think the idea is a good one. Having said that, I think that most of the problem is that for many of these systems, those who are close enough to rescue them either don't have the room or the interest. Those who aren't close and do have interest don't have the financial means necessary or any way to arrange shipping. Plus more often than not, people trying to get rid of stuff aren't willing to take the time to ship. Zane From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jun 12 11:25:29 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:25:29 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 09:35 -0600, Richard wrote: > In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, > "Rod Smallwood" writes: > > > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) It would take me a good throw to hit a port with a brick from my house, but I've got a choice... Gordon (who overlooks a BAe Systems shipyard) From ed at ed-thelen.org Tue Jun 12 11:40:09 2007 From: ed at ed-thelen.org (Ed Thelen) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:40:09 -0700 Subject: PDP11/10 looking for a home Message-ID: <252501c7ad10$57a45d20$0300a8c0@TIGERTV> I have received request/permission from Richard Krasnow to post the following request ----------------------------- Hello, I have a PDP11/10 that was working fine the last time it was turned on, back in 1984 or so. It's been in my basement since. Can you advise where I might look to see if there is a museum that would like to inherit the beast? I'm in the Washington, DC area, so something nearby would save on the shipping. Thanks, Richard 301-652-6110, ext. 145 Richard Krasnow, Ph.D., Operating Director Salamandra, LLC Technical and Strategic Consulting to the Pharmaceutical Industry (c) fax 301-652-6739 ... ... From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 12 09:59:31 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:59:31 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE0@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi We have friends in the mid west (Mason City). They also seem to cover vast distances to get anywhere at all. From their description of the weather, the favored modes of transport are stagecoach in the summer and dog team in the winter. Railroads are apparently ok so long as there are no Indian raids! (sorry about that!). I think the lake ports shut in winter. My rule of thumb used to be if I can't lift it its not airfreight! Its not like the old days at DEC. If you wanted to send something (anything) to DEC Maynard say. You put it in the car took it down to the DEC shipping section at London Heathrow. They would find a box, pack it, label it up and that would be that until next morning when they would ring you to say your package had arrived at Logan and would be by the addresses desk when he got into work. (Around midday UK time). The same thing worked in reverse. One day I asked the shipping manager how things did not get held up in customs. He said "Digital is the largest employer in Massachusetts and a major contributor to the state economy" That reminds me of another story. One day they ran out of parking space at the Mill. So they decided to fill in part of the mill pond to make more space. The Maynard town council said "Heritage site no you can't" Ken Olsen said "don't worry guys I'll call the Mayor". The Mayor said "Heritage site no you can't" Ken said "ok Mr Mayor if you look out of your window in about two hours you will see the first of the moving trucks relocating every DEC site in the town elsewhere. The Mayor said "OK if you look out of your window in one hours time you will see a fleet of council trucks loaded with dirt coming to fill the pond in for you!" -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 12 June 2007 13:33 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: My sale or swap list (Update) On 6/12/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > 'has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos' > That seems to be a lot of weight in a small space. Last time I checked, water was 1000 kilos per cubic meter, so the base charge seems to be centered around the density of water. > Port to port is less of a problem for me as the UK is that much > smaller than the US. > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. Indeed. Being in the mid-west, we don't think about ports much. I can drive to NYC in under 14 hours. Boston is farther. I think the closest Atlantic port, drive time, would be Baltimore at around, IIRC, 9 hours. Lake Erie ports are close (2ish hours), but would almost certainly require a shifting of the load to another vessel at an Atlantic port somewhere. -ethan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 12 14:11:16 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:11:16 +0100 Subject: Boot CD Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi In Linux land you can download an ISO image and burn a boot cd that will install a system. Does anybody know if something similar is possible with VMS? Rod From steven.hatch at hp.com Tue Jun 12 16:18:47 2007 From: steven.hatch at hp.com (Hatch, Steve) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:18:47 -0600 Subject: Nanocomputer Training System Message-ID: <4FE9E84BA419DE459D9AE1FC80E3EA25051B9500@idbexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hi, I just read your note that you just got a NBZ80 Nanocomputer. Where did you get it and how can I get one? I will give you a really good hint about what you can do about documentation. I have two books that are based entirely upon that nanocomputer. Here are the titles of those books. Actually it is Book 1 and Book 2. Name: Z-80 Microprocessor Programming and Interfacing. Authors: Elizabeth A. NIchols, Joseph C. NIchols, and Peter R. Rony Go to www.abebooks.com This is a used bookstore and they have thousands and thousands of new, used and out of print books. I know that they have some listings of these books. I had Book 2, but just got Book 1 from them. good luck. If you know where I can get another nanocomputer, I would appreciate it. steve hatch From rbazzano at alice.it Tue Jun 12 16:36:08 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:36:08 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <002601c7ad39$b50d0920$9e0bfea9@ufficio> >Anyway, from what I remeber, the controller card is based round a 6802 >processor [1]. The actual disk contorller chip, anohter 40 pin device, is >made by Fujitsu, and has the same pinout as the 1793 _apart from being >+5V supply only_. >[1] If you've got chips marked with the HP house codes (1820-xxxx >numbers, maybe soem 1818-xxxx ones), let me know what they are and I can >see if I can find the standard equivalents. Many chips on my controller have only HP house codes. In particular, there are three 40 pin chips, with codes: 1820-2099, MB8866 (this has an "F" as logo, may be it's Fujitsu or Fairchild, I don't know), and an Intel D8291A. Then there are four smaller chips (24 pins? I didn't count them...) marked: 1818-1834 and 1818-1835 (these are on sockets: may be they are roms?), and two 1818-0701. Then, the smallest chips (14-18 pins) with hp house codes are: 1820-2075 1826-0210 1820-1197 1820-1216 1820-1202 1820-1112 1820-1422 1820-2058 1820-0325. Others are standard ttl chips, with both hp house code and standard ttl code. The controller board code is 82901-66503 REV. B >That mioght be enough to get you started. Grab a 1793 data sheet and >check the clocks at the pins of the disk controller. There is probably a >proper procedure for adjusting the free-running requency of the data >separate VCO, but at this point, what you want to do is see (a) is there >a read clock and (b) is it possibly a sane frequency. I'll do it. >I can't remember much abotu the PSU in this unit. IIRC there is a >seaprate PSU PCB (and presumably you can check the outputs of that quite >easily). It's quite possible the VCO circuit needs a -ve supply line. >This might come from the main PSU, but on at least one HP controller, it >was producaed by a charge pump circuit clocked from a divided-down >version of a master clock. That might be worth looking for and checking. I've checked almost all points in the circuit, and I didn't find any -Ve supply. Also, PSU only gives +5 and +12 volt. Thank you very much. Roberto From rbazzano at alice.it Tue Jun 12 16:37:28 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:37:28 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <002a01c7ad39$dfe1d950$9e0bfea9@ufficio> >I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is >that >it by any chance? There is a MB8866 on the board. No MB8877 at all. Roberto From rbazzano at alice.it Tue Jun 12 16:38:49 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:38:49 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> >Are you 100% sure of that? I was udner the impression that the WD p[art >needed some -ve supplu rail (-12V?) and that the Fujitsu part didn't, the >pin was a N/C. The Fujistu chip will replace the WD with no problems, but >the reverse may not be true (and IIRC, the HP board that started this >doesn't have a -ve supply rail). On my board that chip has +5V and +12V on pin 40. Roberto From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue Jun 12 19:02:00 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:02:00 -0700 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706121459n6745f506ob0f48962ad6ac055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01c001c7ad4e$118fa770$6501a8c0@NFORCE4> Weird Stuff Warehouse should be on your list as well. www.weirdstuff.com They aren't quite as cool as they once were, but there's still lots of fun to be had. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 3:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Visiting San Jose area Hello all - I'm heading out tomorrow on a work trip to San Jose, CA and may have about a day for some personal adventuring. Top of my list is the CHM, of course, having never been there. What other landmarks, stores, shops, signs or holes in the ground are worth seeing out that way? I will be flying, so if I pick up anything interesting I'll be paying to ship it back :) -j -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 12 19:17:56 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Jun 12, 2007 08:11:16 PM Message-ID: <200706130017.l5D0HuB2022834@onyx.spiritone.com> > In Linux land you can download an ISO image and burn a boot cd that > will install a system. Does > anybody know if something similar is possible with VMS? The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that an ISO image isn't really the right term as it is an ODS-2 or ODS-5 format disk, but most people will understand what you're asking. I recently created a logical disk on my VMS system, copied data to it, and then FTP'd it to my Mac where I burned it to CD and was able to access it on my VMS box. I'm not sure if you're asking about being able to burn CD's on VMS, but that is also possible, at least on Alpha and Itanium, and I believe that as of 8.3 it is part of the OS. I've not done this, as it would be more trouble to set this up than to simply FTP the file to my Mac. :^) Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 12 19:23:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:23:46 -0400 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4AFB41C1-A2E4-4D24-8647-01F11D53EF4E@neurotica.com> On Jun 12, 2007, at 3:11 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > In Linux land you can download an ISO image and burn a boot cd > that > will install a system. Does > anybody know if something similar is possible with VMS? That's generally how it's done, yes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jun 12 19:23:19 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF East 4.0 pictures In-Reply-To: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> References: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> Message-ID: My pictures of VCF East are online: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCFEast-2007/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 19:55:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:55:22 -0700 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <002a01c7ad39$dfe1d950$9e0bfea9@ufficio> References: , <002a01c7ad39$dfe1d950$9e0bfea9@ufficio> Message-ID: <466EDE0A.25449.3FF18385@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2007 at 23:37, Roberto Bazzano wrote: > There is a MB8866 on the board. No MB8877 at all. IIRC, this is a Fujitsu FDC. Vaguely related to the WD1781, I think. Cheers, Chuck From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jun 12 21:23:13 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 19:23:13 -0700 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <466F147E.DA545B71@cs.ubc.ca> References: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> <075D91BF-4792-427E-B71F-3B3FDC2AC8FE@typewritten.org> <466F147E.DA545B71@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Jun 12, 2007, at 2:47 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Speaking of rescues, was there any word or resolution on that > warehouse full > of stuff up here (Vancouver/Burnaby, B.C.) from a couple of weeks ago? Derek Peschel and I went up on Memorial Day. We spent about two hours there, turning over rocks. Rawn was a pleasant host, but the collection was about as I'd feared it would be: a vast bulk of highly disorganized e-waste. 50% or more of the collection was made up of Apple //e and //gs machines scavenged from public schools. If you add in fishtank Macs (almost all Plusses and Classics) that number goes up to maybe 65% or so. Of what's left, maybe 20% forms a small core of moderately interesting stuff, primarily of the "rounding out a collection" nature---possibly somewhat desireable, though nothing earth- shattering---and one relatively modern PDP-11 in a half-rack which was too buried to get more than a glance at (it might've been an / 83). The quantity of dross is so great, in my opinion, that it overwhelms any real value which may be extracted. A rough estimate puts the count at 350 //es, 200 //gses, 85 Plusses, and another 80 or so Classics. Contrast that with the single (one) ][plus I saw. I counted 15 or so C=64 machines, and maybe five power supplies. The // gses mostly have monitors, but there was a visible shortage of keyboards, mice, and disk drives. This theme repeated itself over, and over. I'm working on crunching some solid figures in terms of time, energy, bulk, potential return on investment, storage, waste disposal options, and what the Customs people are likely to do to me. Rawn has expressed disinterest in allowing cherry-picking; in fact he went so far as to mention plans to donate the lot to Bill Gates should he not find a worthy buyer. What it's boiling down to, is that I will probably make him an offer on it, but it's not likely to one he'll be excited about. I'm prepared to live with the consequences. ok bear From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jun 12 22:43:10 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 04:43:10 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. I take it you're an owner of the new Ford "Enterprise", with disc brakes and a double overhead impulse manifold.... :-) I'm in Birmingham, the nearest port would be at least three hours away at sublight speeds. TTFN - Pete. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 12 22:52:44 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:52:44 -0700 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) References: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 09:35 -0600, Richard wrote: > > "Rod Smallwood" writes: > > > > > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > > > It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) > > It would take me a good throw to hit a port with a brick from my house, > but I've got a choice... > > Gordon (who overlooks a BAe Systems shipyard) At high tide the Pacific Ocean is about 40ft from where I'm typing this. (..sorry..) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 12 22:54:07 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:54:07 -0700 Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont References: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> <624966d60706121502x4b2bb362se9cc68211ed7bc36@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <466F6A5F.30076C26@cs.ubc.ca> Paul Anderson wrote: > > I worked on an ANFSQ7 (SAGE) and I believe that North Bay was the only one > still active in Canada at that time. Mike Loewen wrote: > I don't know what you saw, but North Bay definitely housed a SAGE > system at one time. Online info says that some of the equipment from > North Bay is at the Computer History Museum. > > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/TheCompMusRep/TCMR-V04.html > http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/199805/msg00023.html Interesting, I never knew that there was a SAGE (AN/FSQ7) processor in Canada, I thought they were all in those blockhouses in the States. The DEW Line was well known and publicised up here (Canada) in the 60s - if you ask anyone over 50 what the DEW Line was you'll probably get a half-sensible answer - if you ask what SAGE was you can expect a blank stare or 'that guy on the mountaintop'. This suggests it's quite likely those were SAGE consoles: very large round display tube with arrays of rectangular pushbuttons and indicators to either side of the tube, the camera shot was too quick for me to spot if the light guns were present. The gist of the news story was that the DoD had moved their operations to new aboveground digs, but was still paying for upkeep of the old underground site - along the lines of $2 million a year. Suggestions for de-acquisition or use were being considered, such as a private-sector data vault, all of which suggests the junk may well get cleared out. William Donzelli wrote: > > SAGE was the whole system - computers, radar, radios, modems and all. > > Nitpick. > > Anyway, look at Ed Thelen's website. I have seen that site in the past, I'll take another look. I realised SAGE was the whole system, not just the processors, but wasn't clear, for example, whether the DEW line was a separate system with it's own monitoring or whether the DEW line radars fed into the SAGE processors and hence part of SAGE. I get the feeling you're implying the latter. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 23:13:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 22:13:07 -0600 Subject: classic computer rescue squad In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:42:48 -0700. <200706122342.l5CNgmcP022043@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200706122342.l5CNgmcP022043 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > Having said that, I think that most of the problem is that for many of these > systems, those who are close enough to rescue them either don't have the > room or the interest. Those who aren't close and do have interest don't > have the financial means necessary or any way to arrange shipping. Plus > more often than not, people trying to get rid of stuff aren't willing to > take the time to ship. All of which is irrelevant if YOU DON'T HEAR ABOUT IT. Step one is increasing the communication to those who *can* do something. Also, I'm tired of the whining about shipping. If you want it, you will make it happen. Just ask me, Jay, Sridhar, etc. Craters & Freighters is the answer I give, although they're not always nearest the pickup location. Hell, I called them the other day about something and they were nice enough to tell me that it would be cheaper to use a local UPS store to pick up the item from the auction and ship it to me. Even though technically UPS doesn't advertise pickup and pack service, the C&F representative told me that quite a number of these locations *will* do this for you and that there are enough locations in any decent sized city that if one won't do it, chances are another one will. Now *that* is the kind of place I want to do business with -- they're honest enough to say "look, it would be more cost effective if you used these other people instead of us for that job and you'd get the same results". No way in hell do I think CTS would give me that kind of service. They'd just offer to throw me over a barrel and f*ck me without so much as giving me a kiss first. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jun 12 23:23:21 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:23:21 -0500 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <466F7139.3060600@oldskool.org> Don't forget Sopwith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopwith_%28computer_game%29 It had it's own network protocol as well. Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > Hi all-- > > I'm doing some work on promoting Netrek, and it's gotton > me interested in the following qualities: > graphical (incl. ascii graphics) > action (real-time-ish) > multiplayer, by which I mean 3 or more > wide area > on the internet > teams > leagues and guilds -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jun 12 23:24:54 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:24:54 -0500 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <466F7196.20607@oldskool.org> Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > I'm doing some work on promoting Netrek, and it's gotton > me interested in the following qualities: > graphical (incl. ascii graphics) > action (real-time-ish) > multiplayer, by which I mean 3 or more > wide area > on the internet > teams > leagues and guilds I also noticed you omitted Snipes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipes -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 13 00:27:07 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 01:27:07 -0400 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706121916.PAA23720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> (der Mouse's message of "Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:13:06 -0400 (EDT)") References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706121916.PAA23720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <0qbqfkzaok.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> >> 1973 (Fall) - Empire II on the PLATO system >> not networked, but a wide-area multiplayer action game from >> graphic terminals >> did not clock like a modern game; players called for their own >> screen updates manually der Mouse writes: > I played 0empire on PLATO sometime around '77 or so, and that > description is not quite right for the game I played: you could ask for > an update manually (and usually did, especially during firefights), but > if you just let it sit, it would refresh on a timer every once in a > while (five seconds? I forget). Oh, yeah, eventually it would redraw if you didn't call for it. But knowing when not to tie up the line with a redraw was a key game skill. From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 13 00:46:08 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 01:46:08 -0400 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> (Brian Foley's message of "Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:14:11 +0100") References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> Message-ID: <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Brian Foley writes: > There's also Bolo, a networked tank game for the BBC Micro written in > 1987. Stuart Cheshire's thesis on the subject can be read at > http://www.lgm.com/bolo/guides/dissertation/ Oh my. He built an RS-232 ring topology by breaking the normal tx/rcv pairings out to different destinations. That is so gross, yet so cool. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jun 13 00:54:47 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 22:54:47 -0700 Subject: VCF East 4.0 pictures In-Reply-To: References: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> Message-ID: <200706122254.47253.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hey Mike, Thanks for sending me a personally punched IBM card via Ken. Ken and I were working on the PDP-1 Model 30 display tonight (it needs a new HV PS and we were determining specs). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 13 00:58:00 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 01:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Oh my. He built an RS-232 ring topology by breaking the normal tx/rcv > pairings out to different destinations. > That is so gross, yet so cool. Agreed! This actually reminds me of something I've been contemplating doing: "the same thing" for twisted-pair Ethernet. That is.... For two machines, with a crossed cable, machine A's 1/2 pair goes to machine B's 3/6 pair, and conversely. But suppose you have three machines, and connect machine A's 1/2 to machine B's 3/6, B's 1/2 to C's 3/6, and C's 1/2 to A's 3/6. Obviously you'd have to set all interfaces involved half-duplex for it to have any hope of working (so each non-sending host will feed through the signal it gets to the next host in the ring)...but will it work if you do that? Clearly, too many hosts in the ring and you'll start getting late collisions and such. But it could be a similarly "gross but cool" way to run a small LAN hubless, something normally not possible with more than two machines.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From evan at snarc.net Wed Jun 13 01:05:37 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:05:37 -0400 Subject: A new Kenbak-1 replica kit Message-ID: <003901c7ad80$dce1e780$6401a8c0@evan> Howdy. Just a heads-up that Grant Stockly now has a Kenbak-1 replica available. I blogged about it: http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/5673 - Evan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 01:17:07 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:17:07 +0100 Subject: Boot CD Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Its down load image to a PC then burn CD ROM. Then boot CD on VAX. My CDROM burner may not know about ODS-2/-5 I'll check Thanks Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 13 June 2007 01:18 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Boot CD > In Linux land you can download an ISO image and burn a boot cd > that will install a system. Does anybody know if something similar is > possible with VMS? The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that an ISO image isn't really the right term as it is an ODS-2 or ODS-5 format disk, but most people will understand what you're asking. I recently created a logical disk on my VMS system, copied data to it, and then FTP'd it to my Mac where I burned it to CD and was able to access it on my VMS box. I'm not sure if you're asking about being able to burn CD's on VMS, but that is also possible, at least on Alpha and Itanium, and I believe that as of 8.3 it is part of the OS. I've not done this, as it would be more trouble to set this up than to simply FTP the file to my Mac. :^) Zane From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 13 01:32:07 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:32:07 -0400 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <466EF61A.7090303@atarimuseum.com> (curt@atarimuseum.com's message of "Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:38:02 -0400") References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <466EF61A.7090303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <0qwsy8xt3s.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > I played Conquest quite a bit on the Vax in college, that played > through the VT100 terminals with refreshing the graphics on the screen > for animation (ships turning, shots fired, etc...) We'd get like 10 > or more people on after hours in the computer labs in Manhattan and > Old Westbury and we'd essentially bring the Vax to its knee's ;-) Conquest was one of several children of PLATO Empire. You can still play; ascii or OpenGL. http://radscan.com/conquest.html (Actually, there are two completely different Empire descendents named Conquest; one is the widely-known VMS game, the other a PLATO game made by Silas Warner (Castle Wolfenstein) from the first version of Empire, which was a sort of economics game; Empire didn't become an action-oriented game until version II). Xtrek/Netrek comes from Empire as well. And Robert Woodhead of "Wizardry" fame did a version of Empire for the Apple II called "Galactic Attack". From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 13 01:54:16 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:54:16 -0400 Subject: classic computer rescue squad In-Reply-To: <200706122342.l5CNgmcP022043@onyx.spiritone.com> (Zane H. Healy's message of "Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:42:48 -0700 (PDT)") References: <200706122342.l5CNgmcP022043@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <0qodjkxs2v.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> >> Could we get a seperate list going just for rescue listings, >> and have either cctech or cctalk as a subscriber? That way, >> folks interested only in seeing systems listings could see them >> and maybe rescue systems. "Zane H. Healy" writes: > I think the idea is a good one. > > Having said that, I think that most of the problem is that for many of these > systems, those who are close enough to rescue them either don't have the > room or the interest. Those who aren't close and do have interest don't > have the financial means necessary or any way to arrange shipping. Plus > more often than not, people trying to get rid of stuff aren't willing to > take the time to ship. Sure. And we aren't going to solve those problems. But we can alleviate them by letting potential collectors more easily find out about systems and ask for help in getting them home. Jay, good to know a replacement system is "almost there". I would note that I think to be effective, it should notify in some way that doesn't require remembering to poll a web page; email or possibly ATOM/RSS if enough of us will use something so newfangled... From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 13 02:23:56 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:23:56 +0100 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004301c7ad8b$cf2ab350$2e04010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Its down load image to a PC then burn CD ROM. Then boot CD on VAX. > My CDROM burner may not know about ODS-2/-5 I'll check If you have a binary image of an ODS-2 disk you can certainly transfer it to a PC and burn it to a CD-R which you can then use to boot a VAX. I've done that. The exact way you burn it will depend on the burning software, but basically you choose the mode that says "this is a physical image, trust me and burn it block by block". I've done this plenty of times in the past. It is even possible to build a hybrid CD where there is an ODS-2 structure and an ISO9660 structure and they can even share data (files visible in both, but only stored once on the CD). Antonio From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 13 02:25:04 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:25:04 -0500 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <466F9BD0.3060807@oldskool.org> Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > Brian Foley writes: >> There's also Bolo, a networked tank game for the BBC Micro written in >> 1987. Stuart Cheshire's thesis on the subject can be read at >> http://www.lgm.com/bolo/guides/dissertation/ > > Oh my. He built an RS-232 ring topology by breaking the normal > tx/rcv pairings out to different destinations. > > That is so gross, yet so cool. Just like MIDIMaze, which used the MIDI connections in all Atari ST machines as a crude network? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_Maze -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Jun 13 05:23:47 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:23:47 -0400 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <004301c7ad8b$cf2ab350$2e04010a@uatempname> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <004301c7ad8b$cf2ab350$2e04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <200706131023.l5DANnQh009070@mail.itm-inst.com> At 03:23 AM 6/13/2007, Antonio Carlini wrote: >Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > > Its down load image to a PC then burn CD ROM. Then boot CD on VAX. > > My CDROM burner may not know about ODS-2/-5 I'll check > >If you have a binary image of an ODS-2 disk you can certainly >transfer it to a PC and burn it to a CD-R which you can then >use to boot a VAX. I've done that. The exact way you burn it will >depend on the burning software, but basically you choose the >mode that says "this is a physical image, trust me and burn it block >by block". > >I've done this plenty of times in the past. It is even possible to >build a hybrid CD where there is an ODS-2 structure and an ISO9660 >structure and they can even share data (files visible in both, but >only stored once on the CD). That's largely due to the fact that ODS-2 and base ISO9660 formats are the same (other than block sizes.) VMS Engineering apparently had a lot to do with the 9660 standard. The directory structures are the same, including an RMS file control block in the directory entry. That's also why ISO files have version numbers, just like VMS. I wrote a VMS ACP for handling ISO disks many years ago that took advantage of this. The intervening decade or so may have some of the details wrong but most of what the software did was just reblocking to cast the 2048 bit CD data into 512 bit blocks. -Rick From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 02:28:53 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:28:53 +0100 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Yes definitly existed.. Same case as a VT52. Difference may have been a) 12 x 80 b) Uppercase only c) 20mA only. Rod Smallwood DEC Terminals Product Line 1973 -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder Sent: 12 June 2007 18:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Strange VT50 Decscope >> Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever seen or heard of anything like this? Richard said: >I saw one of these for sale on ebay recently, advertised as a VT52. This is the one that was on ebay. It was listed as a VT50. It also came with the VT50 engineering prints and a VT50 manual. Ashley From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jun 13 02:03:42 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:03:42 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1181718222.25808.11.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 20:52 -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > > On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 09:35 -0600, Richard wrote: > > > "Rod Smallwood" writes: > > > > > > > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > > > > > It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) > > > > It would take me a good throw to hit a port with a brick from my house, > > but I've got a choice... > > > > Gordon (who overlooks a BAe Systems shipyard) > > At high tide the Pacific Ocean is about 40ft from where I'm typing this. The Pacific sounds like a much nicer thing to look out onto, although the Clyde has its moment. You see some very interesting Naval ships sitting about here in the yards. My neighbours are a bit odd though. Most of the other flats on my floor seem to be full of Israeli photography students. They're very shy though; they never seem to come out much, they just sit at home playing with their cameras all day. Funny people. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jun 13 02:29:58 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:29:58 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <1181719798.25808.16.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-06-13 at 04:43 +0100, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > I take it you're an owner of the new Ford "Enterprise", with disc brakes and > a double overhead impulse manifold.... :-) > > I'm in Birmingham, the nearest port would be at least three hours away at > sublight speeds. Got to admit, I'd love to know how you can be within an hour of both Rosyth *and* Southampton... Whatever you've got, it's quicker than my XM. I want one of them ;-) Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 03:05:55 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:05:55 +0100 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FEA@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Having racked my ancient brain I think the white one might have been a "Burn in test model". DEC used to rate reliability on terminals as "XXXX Hours MTBF YY% Confidence factor". To establish a baseline they would take several hundred terminals and run them noting the failures. What this meant was that if you burned in terminals for XXXX Hours in test then you could estimate the in service MTBF to a confidence level of YY%. This was also used to estimate field service spares requirements. If the actual failure rate differed then they would alter the burn in time on the production testing. As the test models were never intended for sale they never bothered to get them silk screened. What do with a lot of unsaleable VDU's? Answer give them to your employees. Rod Smallwood DEC Terminals Product Line 1973. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder Sent: 12 June 2007 14:57 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: wacarder at usit.net Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope A couple of months ago I acquired a strange looking terminal that was said to be a VT50 Decscope. A picture of it can be found on my web site at: http://www.woffordwitch.com/VT50.asp The case looks like it was cast in pieces from a rough mold of a standard VT50. Many of the key caps are not the usual color, and look more like the key caps on the earlier VT05. I have not opened it up and studied the inside yet to see if it has the proper "guts" of a VT50. The previous owner said that he worked for DEC back in the 1970s, and they gave this "VT50" to him to use at home so that he could remotely connect to a system at work. Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever seen or heard of anything like this? Thanks, Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 13 07:21:12 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:21:12 +0100 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/06/2007 06:58, der Mouse wrote: > This actually reminds me of something I've been contemplating doing: > "the same thing" for twisted-pair Ethernet. That is.... > > For two machines, with a crossed cable, machine A's 1/2 pair goes to > machine B's 3/6 pair, and conversely. > > But suppose you have three machines, and connect machine A's 1/2 to > machine B's 3/6, B's 1/2 to C's 3/6, and C's 1/2 to A's 3/6. Obviously > you'd have to set all interfaces involved half-duplex for it to have > any hope of working (so each non-sending host will feed through the > signal it gets to the next host in the ring) That's not what half-duplex does. HD doesn't make each interface pass on what it receives, it just ensures that nothing is transmitted while receiving (or, if it is, that's a collision). > ...but will it work if you do that? I wouldn't expect so, without some additional software. In principle, given software support, you could pass things around like that. You'd need to use something like UDP that doesn't expect the sort of software handshaking that TCP does. It's perfectly possible to have a machine listen to the Rx side while the Tx is not connected to anything (we sometimes use that for a demo to snoop on traffic) and similarly it's possible to transmit while the receive side is connected to nothing more than a link pulse generator. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 07:49:58 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:49:58 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > I take it you're an owner of the new Ford "Enterprise", with disc brakes > and a double overhead impulse manifold.... :-) > > I'm in Birmingham, the nearest port would be at least three hours away > at sublight speeds. Isn't Bristol only about 85 miles down the road? Peace... Sridhar From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 13 08:23:07 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:23:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bitmap images Message-ID: <938407.43226.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, i was reading up on bitmap (mainly .bmp, with some .wbmp) images last night and was wondering why everything is stored backwards (e.g. BGR instead of RGB and the bottom of the image first, instead of the top)? Also would i need to pay a license if i wrote a program to create .bmp files? My main aim is to write a .bmp to (amiga) .iff format, but would love to add full .bmp support to an art program i wrote for the amiga and then stick it online (on Aminet.com ) for other people to use if they wish. - Andrew B (via mobile phone) --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Yes definitly existed.. > Same case as a VT52. > Difference may have been > > a) 12 x 80 > b) Uppercase only > c) 20mA only. > > Rod Smallwood > DEC Terminals Product Line 1973 > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder > Sent: 12 June 2007 18:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Strange VT50 Decscope > > >> Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have > ever seen or heard of anything like this? > > Richard said: > >I saw one of these for sale on ebay recently, advertised as a VT52. > > > This is the one that was on ebay. It was listed as a VT50. It also > came with the VT50 engineering prints and a VT50 manual. > > Ashley > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 08:55:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:55:47 -0400 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> References: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 6/12/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. I still have a Weirdstuff poster/calendar up in my office from my 1994 visit. > If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my shop > (although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile away. > Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) There's a chance I could end up visiting LBNL later this summer - I'll have to remember to mention when I'm going. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 09:11:24 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:11:24 -0700 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 6/12/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>Evan Koblentz wrote: >> > Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. > >I still have a Weirdstuff poster/calendar up in my office from my 1994 >visit. > >>If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my shop >>(although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile away. >>Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) > >There's a chance I could end up visiting LBNL later this summer - I'll >have to remember to mention when I'm going. > >-ethan Hi I know I'm a little late but it is worth stopping by at HSC and if you need parts and such also Anchor Electronics. Not a lot of classic stuff but I do recall that Anchor had a couple of old S-100 board kits for things like RAM boards. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 13 09:01:28 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200706131411.KAA13530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> But suppose you have three machines, and connect machine A's 1/2 to >> machine B's 3/6, B's 1/2 to C's 3/6, and C's 1/2 to A's 3/6. >> Obviously you'd have to set all interfaces involved half-duplex for >> it to have any hope of working (so each non-sending host will feed >> through the signal it gets to the next host in the ring) > That's not what half-duplex does. HD doesn't make each interface > pass on what it receives, it just ensures that nothing is transmitted > while receiving (or, if it is, that's a collision). ...oh. I thought half-duplex was basically shared-bus Ethernet - that all pairs in a collision domain would be carrying the same signal. Clearly this was more unfounded speculation than reality. :( Hmm. I wonder what would happen if you connect A and B's TX pairs and C's RX pair together, and similarly for B/C TX and A RX, and C/A TX and B RX. Probably nothing (or at least nothing useful). Oh well. Annoying; it looked like a simple "poor man's token ring" setup. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 13 10:37:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:37:51 -0700 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>, <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>, <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <466FACDF.2208.431972B8@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2007 at 1:58, der Mouse wrote: > This actually reminds me of something I've been contemplating doing: > "the same thing" for twisted-pair Ethernet. That is.... > > For two machines, with a crossed cable, machine A's 1/2 pair goes to > machine B's 3/6 pair, and conversely. Before I picked up my first ISA ethernet cards and started stringing coax, I used two products under MS-DOS 2.1 and 3.3, "The $25 Network" and "The Invisible Network". The first was strictly RS-232; the second could also use printer ports and dedicated cards. Not like Laplink, but full "always-on" networking. Very primitive--whole drive letter and printer sharing only, with no selective access. I still have a 2P+2S ISA card that populated the machines that I chained together. I don't remember too much about the setup, only that it worked pretty well. I stll have the software and manuals. The MS-DOS networking hooks were pretty handy, particularly when it came to hosting foreign filesystems. CD-ROM access is accomplished that way, IIRC. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 13 11:14:46 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:14:46 -0600 Subject: manualsplus.com has 50% off all manuals right now Message-ID: I just received email from the people running this business I mentioned the other day . They are in the process of trying to sell off the business, so they are currently selling all manuals at 50% off. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fryers at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 11:31:58 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:31:58 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> Message-ID: G'Day, On 13/06/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ensor wrote: > > I'm in Birmingham, the nearest port would be at least three hours away > > at sublight speeds. > > Isn't Bristol only about 85 miles down the road? Yes - approx 90 minutes from the outskirts when the traffic is good... I suspect getting out of Birmingham is the problem. I am not sure how much freight now travels to/from the Bristol ports. I don't think it is that much but am willing to be proved wrong. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From thorh at ismennt.is Wed Jun 13 12:36:58 2007 From: thorh at ismennt.is (Thorhallur Ragnarsson) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:36:58 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Visiting Las Vegas and Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706121459n6745f506ob0f48962ad6ac055@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730706121459n6745f506ob0f48962ad6ac055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36458.172.16.3.169.1181756218.squirrel@clear.vefpostur.skyrr.is> Hello all. Been a long time lurker on cctalk, now visiting US for the first time, I?ll be staying in Las Vegas and Minneapolis for a few days with some unsheduled time. The lights on Las Vegas Blvd. may look OK, but I?m more interested in the other kind of Blinkenlights :-) Are there any places I should seek out related to classic computing or electronics in general? Best regards. Thorhallur Ragnarsson From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 12:41:54 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:41:54 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46702C62.4050505@gmail.com> Simon Fryer wrote: > I am not sure how much freight now travels to/from the Bristol ports. > I don't think it is that much but am willing to be proved wrong. If you can get a ship willing to haul it, many of those old mothballed non-containerized piers are still happy for the business. At least, here in the US. Peace... Sridhar From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 13:09:56 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:09:56 -0500 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> References: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730706131109v5b8877a5oe876b0945f319150@mail.gmail.com> On 6/12/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my shop > (although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile away. > Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) Hey, great, thanks for the tips. I won't have free time until Saturday (or Friday night maybe) but I'll check it out. -j From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 13 15:35:48 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:35:48 -0400 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <200706131023.l5DANnQh009070@mail.itm-inst.com> (Rick Murphy's message of "Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:23:47 -0400") References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <004301c7ad8b$cf2ab350$2e04010a@uatempname> <200706131023.l5DANnQh009070@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <0qhcpby4m3.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Rick Murphy writes: > I wrote a VMS ACP for handling ISO disks many years ago that took > advantage of this. The intervening decade or so may have some of the > details wrong but most of what the software did was just reblocking to > cast the 2048 bit CD data into 512 bit blocks. Yeah, important point original poster may need to know: many VMS systems need cd-rom drives that can do 512 bit blocks. Many early scsi cd-roms don't do 512 bit blocks, so try to make sure the one you're trying to use can do this. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 13 15:43:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:43:25 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <46702C62.4050505@gmail.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> <46702C62.4050505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <467056ED.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Simon Fryer wrote: >> I am not sure how much freight now travels to/from the Bristol ports. >> I don't think it is that much but am willing to be proved wrong. > > If you can get a ship willing to haul it, many of those old mothballed > non-containerized piers are still happy for the business. At least, > here in the US. I hope that is just a passing comment about shipping ... or was he adding to his collection ??? :) > Peace... Sridhar My feeling if you realy want it ... shipping is not a problem. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 09:08:55 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:08:55 +0100 Subject: Boot CD Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FF5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Minor intervening problem. 1. Turn off VAX 4000-200 2. Install KZQSA in first free slot. 3. Leave terminator on KZQSA SCSI output connector. 4. Power up system. 5. Wait for self test -> no problems. 6. >>> SHOW DEV -> Nothing new there. 7. >>> SHOW QBUS -> Nothing new there. 8. >>> CONFIGURE -> device,number -> KZQSA,1 9. Reboot 10. Wait for self test -> no problems. 11. >>> SHOW DEV -> Nothing new there. 12. >>> SHOW QBUS -> Nothing new there. 13. ???????????????? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: 13 June 2007 11:24 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Boot CD At 03:23 AM 6/13/2007, Antonio Carlini wrote: >Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > > Its down load image to a PC then burn CD ROM. Then boot CD on VAX. > > My CDROM burner may not know about ODS-2/-5 I'll check > >If you have a binary image of an ODS-2 disk you can certainly transfer >it to a PC and burn it to a CD-R which you can then use to boot a VAX. >I've done that. The exact way you burn it will depend on the burning >software, but basically you choose the mode that says "this is a >physical image, trust me and burn it block by block". > >I've done this plenty of times in the past. It is even possible to >build a hybrid CD where there is an ODS-2 structure and an ISO9660 >structure and they can even share data (files visible in both, but only >stored once on the CD). That's largely due to the fact that ODS-2 and base ISO9660 formats are the same (other than block sizes.) VMS Engineering apparently had a lot to do with the 9660 standard. The directory structures are the same, including an RMS file control block in the directory entry. That's also why ISO files have version numbers, just like VMS. I wrote a VMS ACP for handling ISO disks many years ago that took advantage of this. The intervening decade or so may have some of the details wrong but most of what the software did was just reblocking to cast the 2048 bit CD data into 512 bit blocks. -Rick From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 11:12:02 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:12:02 +0100 Subject: Boot CD Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FF6@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Here's my ROM Burner ImgBurn supports a wide range of image file formats - including BIN, DI, DVD, GI, IMG, ISO, MDS, NRG and PDI. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: 13 June 2007 11:24 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Boot CD At 03:23 AM 6/13/2007, Antonio Carlini wrote: >Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > > Its down load image to a PC then burn CD ROM. Then boot CD on VAX. > > My CDROM burner may not know about ODS-2/-5 I'll check > >If you have a binary image of an ODS-2 disk you can certainly transfer >it to a PC and burn it to a CD-R which you can then use to boot a VAX. >I've done that. The exact way you burn it will depend on the burning >software, but basically you choose the mode that says "this is a >physical image, trust me and burn it block by block". > >I've done this plenty of times in the past. It is even possible to >build a hybrid CD where there is an ODS-2 structure and an ISO9660 >structure and they can even share data (files visible in both, but only >stored once on the CD). That's largely due to the fact that ODS-2 and base ISO9660 formats are the same (other than block sizes.) VMS Engineering apparently had a lot to do with the 9660 standard. The directory structures are the same, including an RMS file control block in the directory entry. That's also why ISO files have version numbers, just like VMS. I wrote a VMS ACP for handling ISO disks many years ago that took advantage of this. The intervening decade or so may have some of the details wrong but most of what the software did was just reblocking to cast the 2048 bit CD data into 512 bit blocks. -Rick From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 12:07:48 2007 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:07:48 +0000 Subject: Viatron System 21 on eBay (US only) Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330130310578 Obvious question - just what is a Viatron System 21? Hard to believe it is a computer, there is very little information on the web after a quick Google search. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ Win tickets to the sold out Live Earth concert! http://liveearth.uk.msn.com From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 12:13:19 2007 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:13:19 +0000 Subject: Blank S-100 prototype boards for sale Message-ID: Hi, I have a few of these for sale, priced $9 / ?5 each plus postage from the UK. These are blank boards, there are 100 gold plated fingers with a short track leading to a pad with a hole. The rest of the board (glass fibre) is bare, so no power rails etc, so you have to drill and fit sockets or components and wire-wrap them together. Please mention 'classiccmp' when replying. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 13:53:29 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:53:29 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - Part 2 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FF8@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> .. 14) Locate brain.. 15) Jumpers? Surely not? Always factory default 16) Power down 17) Remove KZQSA 18) Call up jumper settings from web. 19) Cross check and.. yup one set not default. 20) Set to default. 21) Put board back in system 22) Power up 23) Choose 4 for language 24) at >>> Type SHOW QBUS 25) Hallelujah!! -> 200002C0 (761300) = 0000 KZQSA 26) Type SHOW DEV 27) SCSI Adapter 0 (761300), SCSI ID 7 -DKA100 (YAMAHA CRW4416S) Hell, it even read the firmware in the drive!!! Rod From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 13 15:54:45 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:54:45 +0100 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FF5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <002f01c7adfd$13eba550$0404010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > > 6. >>> SHOW DEV -> Nothing new there. > 7. >>> SHOW QBUS -> Nothing new there. What _is_ there? CONFIGURE doesn't actually _configure_ anything. You tell it which devices you want and it tells you what to set the CSRs and vectors to. What do you have in each slot? Do you have a terminator in _each_ of the two KZQSA ports? For some reason Manx doesn't show a link for the KZQSA installation guide - I do have it in PDF form and I can email it to you if that would help. Antonio From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Jun 13 16:08:36 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 13 Jun 2007 14:08:36 -0700 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <0qhcpby4m3.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <004301c7ad8b$cf2ab350$2e04010a@uatempname> <200706131023.l5DANnQh009070@mail.itm-inst.com> <0qhcpby4m3.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <1181768915.46705cd38c9d9@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting "Andrew K. Bressen" : > > Rick Murphy writes: > > I wrote a VMS ACP for handling ISO disks many years ago that took > > advantage of this. The intervening decade or so may have some of the > > details wrong but most of what the software did was just reblocking > to > > cast the 2048 bit CD data into 512 bit blocks. > > Yeah, important point original poster may need to know: > many VMS systems need cd-rom drives that can do 512 bit blocks. > Many early SCSI cd-roms don't do 512 bit blocks, so try to make > sure the one you're trying to use can do this. Some TEAC SCSI cd-rom drives, all Plextor SCSI cd-rom drives and some Toshiba SCSI cd-rom drives (sun used Toshiba SCSI drives) can be jumpered for (or in the case of the Toshiba) a trace or 2 cut at a location specifically for the purpose From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 13 16:12:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:12:30 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:43:25 -0600. <467056ED.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <467056ED.2030406 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > My feeling if you realy want it ... shipping is not a problem. As someone who just spend quite a bit of money to get that CDC PLATO terminal sent to me from the UK, I agree. However, I don't know what else would entice me to purchase from the UK again. It was painful. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 13 16:14:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:14:30 -0600 Subject: Viatron System 21 on eBay (US only) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:07:48 -0000. Message-ID: In article , "John S" writes: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330130310578 > > Obvious question - just what is a Viatron System 21? Hard to believe it is a > computer, there is very little information on the web after a quick Google > search. Dunno, but I'm not going to up against Al for it :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jun 13 17:02:46 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:02:46 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706131502xd1139d3wd8a1a0cff0125a17@mail.gmail.com> On 13/06/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > > Gordon (who overlooks a BAe Systems shipyard) > > At high tide the Pacific Ocean is about 40ft from where I'm typing this. We're about miles inland, but the nerest port is a mile away.. (courtasy of the Manchester Ship Canal..) As a rough idea on the sort of charges for shipping, this is a quote I was given as a non-business customer China->UK about 2 years ago. Obviously prices will have changed but might give an idea of what sorts of things are charged: LCL ex FOB Shenzhen quay to delivered Salford - non hazardous cargo Seafreight $45.00w/m or minimum 1000kgs or 1cbm whichever is the greatest UK THC GBP46.90w/2 or minimum Documentation GBP25.00 Port security GBP3.00 UK customs GBP35.00 up to 3 tariff headings UK haulage Up to 1000kgs GBP84.00 per 1000kgs or part there of @ a conversion of 2.25m3 = 1000kgs 1001-2000kgs GBP78.00 2001-3000kgs GBP70.00 3001-4000kgs GBP65.00 4001-5000KGS GBP60.00 Weekly service - transit time 21 days quay to quay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 13 17:22:15 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:22:15 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70706131502xd1139d3wd8a1a0cff0125a17@mail.gmail.com> References: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> <2f806cd70706131502xd1139d3wd8a1a0cff0125a17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46706E17.9030606@jetnet.ab.ca> Rob wrote: > As a rough idea on the sort of charges for shipping, this is a quote I > was given as a non-business customer China->UK about 2 years ago. > Obviously prices will have changed but might give an idea of what > sorts of things are charged: > > > LCL ex FOB Shenzhen quay to delivered Salford - non hazardous cargo Are you sure non-hazardous ??? Ask anybody who has tried to move one. :) If GBP is short for the British Pound I see shipping is cheap compared to the paperwork. Now if we can get a Chinese company to make PDP-11's we have got it made. > > Seafreight $45.00w/m or minimum 1000kgs or 1cbm whichever is the > greatest > UK THC GBP46.90w/2 or minimum > Documentation GBP25.00 > Port security GBP3.00 > UK customs GBP35.00 up to 3 tariff headings > UK haulage Up to 1000kgs GBP84.00 > per 1000kgs or part there of @ a conversion of 2.25m3 = 1000kgs > 1001-2000kgs GBP78.00 > 2001-3000kgs GBP70.00 > 3001-4000kgs GBP65.00 > 4001-5000KGS GBP60.00 > > > Weekly service - transit time 21 days quay to quay > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 13 16:47:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:47:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <002601c7ad39$b50d0920$9e0bfea9@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 12, 7 11:36:08 pm Message-ID: > > >Anyway, from what I remeber, the controller card is based round a 6802 > >processor [1]. The actual disk contorller chip, anohter 40 pin device, is > >made by Fujitsu, and has the same pinout as the 1793 _apart from being > >+5V supply only_. > >[1] If you've got chips marked with the HP house codes (1820-xxxx > >numbers, maybe soem 1818-xxxx ones), let me know what they are and I can > >see if I can find the standard equivalents. > > Many chips on my controller have only HP house codes. > In particular, there are three 40 pin chips, with codes: 1820-2099, MB8866 1820-2099 = MC6802P Microprocessor MB8866 is not a house-code, it's a Fujitsu disk controller chip > (this has an "F" as logo, may be it's Fujitsu or Fairchild, I don't know), > and an Intel D8291A. 8291 = HPIB interface chip (also not a house-code) > Then there are four smaller chips (24 pins? I didn't count them...) marked: > 1818-1834 and 1818-1835 (these are on sockets: may be they are roms?), and I think those are the firmware ROMs > two 1818-0701. 1818-0701 = MCM68A10P 128 byte static RAM > Then, the smallest chips (14-18 pins) with hp house codes are: I'll fill these in on the same lines > 1820-2075 = 74LS245 (that has 20 pins, surely) > 1826-0210 = LM361 > 1820-1197 = 74LS00 > 1820-1216 = 74LS138 > 1820-1202 = 74LS10 > 1820-1112 = 74LS74 > 1820-1422 = 74LS122 > 1820-2058 = MC3448L (HPIB buffer chip) > 1820-0325.= MC815P [...] > >This might come from the main PSU, but on at least one HP controller, it > >was producaed by a charge pump circuit clocked from a divided-down > >version of a master clock. That might be worth looking for and checking. > > I've checked almost all points in the circuit, and I didn't find any -Ve > supply. Also, PSU only gives +5 and +12 volt. Yes, but if the -ve supply circuit has failed, you won't find it :-) I am pretty sure I have one of these, or something closely related. If you get stuck, I can be convinced to find it, pull the covers and do some tests. -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 18:59:25 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Visiting Las Vegas and Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <36458.172.16.3.169.1181756218.squirrel@clear.vefpostur.skyrr.is> Message-ID: <436260.49708.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The "Atomic Testing Museum" in Las Vegas is interesting... http://www.atomictestingmuseum.org/ Thorhallur Ragnarsson wrote: Hello all. Been a long time lurker on cctalk, now visiting US for the first time, I?ll be staying in Las Vegas and Minneapolis for a few days with some unsheduled time. The lights on Las Vegas Blvd. may look OK, but I?m more interested in the other kind of Blinkenlights :-) Are there any places I should seek out related to classic computing or electronics in general? Best regards. Thorhallur Ragnarsson --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 21:07:11 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:07:11 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <467056ED.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> <46702C62.4050505@gmail.com> <467056ED.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4670A2CF.7000102@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Simon Fryer wrote: >>> I am not sure how much freight now travels to/from the Bristol ports. >>> I don't think it is that much but am willing to be proved wrong. >> >> If you can get a ship willing to haul it, many of those old mothballed >> non-containerized piers are still happy for the business. At least, >> here in the US. > > I hope that is just a passing comment about shipping ... > or was he adding to his collection ??? :) I have no idea what he's doing specifically, but I was just making an observation that you can get a cargo ship to put into many old ports that are otherwise closed. Peace... Sridhar From onymouse at garlic.com Wed Jun 13 08:02:41 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:02:41 -0700 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> References: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> Message-ID: <466FEAF1.7050809@garlic.com> Roberto Bazzano wrote: > > On my board that chip has +5V and +12V on pin 40. > Did HP||WD||Fujitsu patent that? I sure could use it in the car. I'd rather not run additional wire for +5V. Will it work with high voltage too? I've always wanted to put a 51J-4 in my car. == jd "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jun 14 00:18:48 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:18:48 -0400 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <466EDE0A.25449.3FF18385@cclist.sydex.com> References: <002a01c7ad39$dfe1d950$9e0bfea9@ufficio> <466EDE0A.25449.3FF18385@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706140118.49213.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 12 June 2007 20:55, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Jun 2007 at 23:37, Roberto Bazzano wrote: > > There is a MB8866 on the board. No MB8877 at all. > > IIRC, this is a Fujitsu FDC. Vaguely related to the WD1781, I think. I've never heard of the 178x parts, only 177x and 179x. What's that one all about? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 23:42:58 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 05:42:58 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> OK ... 1. I'm ready to burn a VMS image onto a CD 2. Nero and imgBurn wont read the image file. 3. What s needed is a Burner program tha will run on a Windows 2000 system and prduce a VMS bootable CD. 4. Suggection for a ROM burning program that: a) Will run under Windows 2000 b) Produce a cd that is Bootable on a VAX 4000/200 or 300. Rod From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 14 01:29:38 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:29:38 -0700 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: At 5:42 AM +0100 6/14/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > 2. Nero and imgBurn wont read the image file. I'm pretty sure Nero can, though it's been several years since I've done anything with it, and I normally use Toast. I've yet to find anything I want to do that Nero can't (other than Mac CD's). You don't want to *read* the file, you want to burn it to the CD. The trick is determining the correct incantation. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 14 02:19:46 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:19:46 +0100 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706131411.KAA13530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> <200706131411.KAA13530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4670EC12.8050505@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/06/2007 15:01, der Mouse wrote: > ...oh. I thought half-duplex was basically shared-bus Ethernet - that > all pairs in a collision domain would be carrying the same signal. 'Fraid not :-( > Hmm. I wonder what would happen if you connect A and B's TX pairs and > C's RX pair together, and similarly for B/C TX and A RX, and C/A TX and > B RX. As you wrote, nothing useful. You can connect one Tx pair to several Rx pairs. I don't know how many, I've only ever tried connecting one extra Rx pair. I don't know about connecting two or more Tx pairs together, though. You'd end up with collisions, undetected by the transmitters, and I don't know if 10baseT transmitters can handle that. Anyway, what you're suggesting would connect all the Tx pairs together (A to B, then B to C). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 14 02:41:05 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:41:05 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004601c7ae57$5ed5b4c0$0404010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > 2. Nero and imgBurn wont read the image file. I'm sure I used Nero when I did this. I'm also sure that if ImgBurn ("Image Burn") cannot do it then it should be renamed :-) I think the sequence with Nero is something like: Start->Programs->wherever Nero Burning ROM lives Cancel the initial screen that helps you determine whether you are burning a CD or DVD or whatever Recorder->Burn Image Select "All Files" (make sure yours is called .img or .bin) On the "Foreign Image Settings" leave it as "Data Mode 1" and tick "Raw Data" Try a CD-RW until you find the right incantation. I would download one of the Freeware CDs from the HP VMS website and try that image, so at least you know you have a good ODS-2 image at the start. An RRD42 will not (IIRC) cope with a CD-RW ... so you may need to use the Yamaha to start with (assuming it will). Antonio From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 14 02:39:37 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 03:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <4670EC12.8050505@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> <200706131411.KAA13530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4670EC12.8050505@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200706140743.DAA27254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Hmm. I wonder what would happen if you connect A and B's TX pairs >> and C's RX pair together, and similarly for B/C TX and A RX, and C/A >> TX and B RX. > I don't know about connecting two or more Tx pairs together, though. > You'd end up with collisions, undetected by the transmitters, and I > don't know if 10baseT transmitters can handle that. They must be able to at least tolerate it without frying; that's basically what you get if you connect two hosts with a straight cable - or a host and hub with a crossed cable - so there'd be a lot of toasted hardware if it weren't at least relatively harmless. > Anyway, what you're suggesting would connect all the Tx pairs > together (A to B, then B to C). Doh! Of course. Oh well. So much for cheap pseudo-token-ring Ethernets. :-/ /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 14 03:50:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:50:23 -0700 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <200706140118.49213.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <466EDE0A.25449.3FF18385@cclist.sydex.com>, <200706140118.49213.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46709EDF.6583.46CABC32@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jun 2007 at 1:18, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 12 June 2007 20:55, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12 Jun 2007 at 23:37, Roberto Bazzano wrote: > > > There is a MB8866 on the board. No MB8877 at all. > > > > IIRC, this is a Fujitsu FDC. Vaguely related to the WD1781, I think. > > I've never heard of the 178x parts, only 177x and 179x. What's that one all > about? Scarce (or maybe scarcer) than hen's teeth. It's basically a 1771 wired to handle MFM codes. I've got a couple, believe it or not. It'd be interesting to see if the MB8866 is anything like that. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 14 03:55:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:55:49 -0700 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706140743.DAA27254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>, <4670EC12.8050505@dunnington.plus.com>, <200706140743.DAA27254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4670A025.30377.46CFB7A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jun 2007 at 3:39, der Mouse wrote: > They must be able to at least tolerate it without frying; that's > basically what you get if you connect two hosts with a straight cable - > or a host and hub with a crossed cable - so there'd be a lot of toasted > hardware if it weren't at least relatively harmless. > > > Anyway, what you're suggesting would connect all the Tx pairs > > together (A to B, then B to C). > > Doh! Of course. Oh well. So much for cheap pseudo-token-ring > Ethernets. :-/ Er, isn't what you're suggesting very akin to RS-485? Cheers, Chuck From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Jun 14 04:34:18 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:34:18 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <46706E17.9030606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> <2f806cd70706131502xd1139d3wd8a1a0cff0125a17@mail.gmail.com> <46706E17.9030606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706140234w5f6bf26en99a021ae72bbabb0@mail.gmail.com> On 13/06/07, woodelf wrote: > Rob wrote: > > LCL ex FOB Shenzhen quay to delivered Salford - non hazardous cargo > > Are you sure non-hazardous ??? Ask anybody who has tried to move one. :) LOL.. > If GBP is short for the British Pound I see shipping is cheap compared > to the paperwork. Now if we can get a Chinese company to make PDP-11's > we have got it made. In my admittedly limited experience, they seem quite willing to make anything you want, provided you are prepared to order in sufficient quantities.. So just go create a market for 100,000 pdp-11 clones, and you're away ;-) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 14 04:50:15 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:50:15 +0100 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706140743.DAA27254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> <200706131411.KAA13530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4670EC12.8050505@dunnington.plus.com> <200706140743.DAA27254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46710F57.90100@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/06/2007 08:39, der Mouse wrote: >> You'd end up with collisions, undetected by the transmitters, and I >> don't know if 10baseT transmitters can handle that. > They must be able to at least tolerate it without frying; that's > basically what you get if you connect two hosts with a straight cable - > or a host and hub with a crossed cable - so there'd be a lot of toasted > hardware if it weren't at least relatively harmless. Of course -- in my eagerness to reply I forgot that minor detail! >> Anyway, what you're suggesting would connect all the Tx pairs >> together (A to B, then B to C). > > Doh! Of course. Oh well. So much for cheap pseudo-token-ring > Ethernets. :-/ You can still do it, so long as you write something to handle the tokens and avoid things like TCP handshaking. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rbazzano at alice.it Thu Jun 14 04:56:19 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:56:19 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive Message-ID: <003a01c7ae6a$4acb1ca0$0a03010a@ufficio> > 1820-2075 = 74LS245 (that has 20 pins, surely) > 1826-0210 = LM361 > 1820-1197 = 74LS00 > 1820-1216 = 74LS138 > 1820-1202 = 74LS10 > 1820-1112 = 74LS74 > 1820-1422 = 74LS122 > 1820-2058 = MC3448L (HPIB buffer chip) > 1820-0325.= MC815P Wow!!!! Thank you!! This really simplify the task to understand what's wrong and replace a chip if needed. I'm just curious about two things: first, are this hp house codes generic (i.e. valid for any product), or are they related to this controller only? second, where do you find these valuable informations?!?!? ;-)) >> I've checked almost all points in the circuit, and I didn't find any -Ve >> supply. Also, PSU only gives +5 and +12 volt. >Yes, but if the -ve supply circuit has failed, you won't find it :-) Oh, yes, that's true... ;-) >I am pretty sure I have one of these, or something closely related. If >you get stuck, I can be convinced to find it, pull the covers and do some >tests. Ok, I'll let you know. In the meantime, maybe I've found a complete service manual for the drive. I'm waiting for it. Thank you. Roberto From rbazzano at alice.it Thu Jun 14 04:56:58 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:56:58 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive Message-ID: <003e01c7ae6a$6247d670$0a03010a@ufficio> >Scarce (or maybe scarcer) than hen's teeth. It's basically a 1771 >wired to handle MFM codes. I've got a couple, believe it or not. >It'd be interesting to see if the MB8866 is anything like that. Unfortunately I didn't find any datasheet for it. Anyone? Thx. Roberto From james at machineroom.info Thu Jun 14 05:43:19 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:43:19 +0100 Subject: Viatron System 21 on eBay (US only) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46711BC7.1060101@machineroom.info> Richard wrote: > In article , > "John S" writes: > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330130310578 >> >> Obvious question - just what is a Viatron System 21? Hard to believe it is a >> computer, there is very little information on the web after a quick Google >> search. > > Dunno, but I'm not going to up against Al for it :-) Al, of course, has docs on line! (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/viatron/) In summary, 16 bit CPU built from LSI/MOS parts, 4 or 8 K words core memory. Cool :-) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 10:20:21 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:20:21 +0100 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: References: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> <075D91BF-4792-427E-B71F-3B3FDC2AC8FE@typewritten.org> <466F147E.DA545B71@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0706140820y1d54d6b6ge1defa0192929c26@mail.gmail.com> On 13/06/07, r.stricklin wrote: > > On Jun 12, 2007, at 2:47 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Speaking of rescues, was there any word or resolution on that > > warehouse full > > of stuff up here (Vancouver/Burnaby, B.C.) from a couple of weeks ago? > > Derek Peschel and I went up on Memorial Day. We spent about two hours > there, turning over rocks. Rawn was a pleasant host, but the > collection was about as I'd feared it would be: a vast bulk of highly > disorganized e-waste. 50% or more of the collection was made up of > Apple //e and //gs machines Aren't IIgs machines still in some demand? I know I've always wanted one and I think I know several others who do, too... Not enough to pay international shipping, mind you! -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 14 10:26:54 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:26:54 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706141126.54328.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 14 June 2007 00:42, Rod Smallwood wrote: > 4. Suggection for a ROM burning program that: > > a) Will run under Windows 2000 > > b) Produce a cd that is Bootable on a > VAX 4000/200 or 300. Use cdrecord. There's a cdrecord that runs inside of cygwin on windows... http://smithii.com/cdrtools (None of that GUI crap or trademark Windows "helpfulness" to get int the way). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Jun 14 10:02:11 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:02:11 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023001@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Yes I got past that afer a bit of trying. I have both Ricoh and ASUS DVD and CD R/RW Drives I had to change the extension from .img to .nrg as raw data or not Nero would not look at either of my drives as .img is not supported. It asks about block sizes around 2k. VMS CD are 512. My first attempt did not boot. I'll try again to-night Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 14 June 2007 08:41 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Boot CD - The last LAP Rod Smallwood wrote: > 2. Nero and imgBurn wont read the image file. I'm sure I used Nero when I did this. I'm also sure that if ImgBurn ("Image Burn") cannot do it then it should be renamed :-) I think the sequence with Nero is something like: Start->Programs->wherever Nero Burning ROM lives Cancel the initial screen that helps you determine whether you are burning a CD or DVD or whatever Recorder->Burn Image Select "All Files" (make sure yours is called .img or .bin) On the "Foreign Image Settings" leave it as "Data Mode 1" and tick "Raw Data" Try a CD-RW until you find the right incantation. I would download one of the Freeware CDs from the HP VMS website and try that image, so at least you know you have a good ODS-2 image at the start. An RRD42 will not (IIRC) cope with a CD-RW ... so you may need to use the Yamaha to start with (assuming it will). Antonio From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 14 10:38:25 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:38:25 -0400 Subject: Viatron System 21 on eBay (US only) Message-ID: <0JJM00I20U2Q8RT0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Viatron System 21 on eBay (US only) > From: James > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:43:19 +0100 > To: General at address.invalid, "Discussion at address.invalid":On-Topic Posts Only > > >Richard wrote: >> In article , >> "John S" writes: >> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330130310578 >>> >>> Obvious question - just what is a Viatron System 21? Hard to believe it is a >>> computer, there is very little information on the web after a quick Google >>> search. >> >> Dunno, but I'm not going to up against Al for it :-) > >Al, of course, has docs on line! (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/viatron/) > >In summary, 16 bit CPU built from LSI/MOS parts, 4 or 8 K words core >memory. Cool :-) It's been 29 years since I've seen one. One of the LICA (LI computer assoc, LI NY) had one and brought it in. Impressive for it's time when an AMD EV68 (6800 based single board system) was a very big deal. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 11:12:46 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:12:46 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023001@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023001@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On 6/14/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Yes I got past that afer a bit of trying. > I have both Ricoh and ASUS DVD and CD R/RW Drives > I had to change the extension from .img to .nrg as raw data or not > Nero would not look at either of my drives as .img is not supported. The joy of operating systems with enforced filename extensions. :-P > It asks about block sizes around 2k. VMS CD are 512. That will be the key - to get whatever tool you use to write 512-byte blocks, not 2048-byte blocks. As I am not a regular Windows user, I can't suggest any Windows tools, but you have, I think, identified the crux of your requirements - user-specifiable block size. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 14 11:31:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:31:17 -0600 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:20:21 +0100. <575131af0706140820y1d54d6b6ge1defa0192929c26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <575131af0706140820y1d54d6b6ge1defa0192929c26 at mail.gmail.com>, "Liam Proven" writes: > Aren't IIgs machines still in some demand? They sell OK, but they