From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 00:04:53 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:04:53 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465F6DBE.5030704@gmail.com> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <465ED118.2841.13F18CA@cclist.sydex.com> <465F6DBE.5030704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <465FA8F5.1060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I light thermite with glycerine + potassium permanganate. > > Peace... Sridhar Yep peace. I would not to want to get you angry with your collection of interesting combustion-ables . :) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 00:07:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:07:08 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <465F470C.28764.30BD5D8@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2007 at 16:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > When I taught C, I would always show the class a few examples of different > results from the same code in gcc, DeSmet, TurboC, . . . Back in the old Usenet days, dmr used to pose little conundrums in C on comp.lang.c (e.g. "What does this do?). Many of the answers took the form "I don't know". The net (but not the web) was a much nicer place back then; while there were knock-down drag-out discussions, they were always pretty polite. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 00:09:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:09:29 -0600 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <465FAA09.2090002@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> N = 1; >> A[N++] = N++; > I'd expect that to evaluate to a[1]=2 and n winds up being 3. But I'm weird. But how larger is your program overhead with modern C compilers? PS. It will not complle under C "main(){ ... }" is needed at least. From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Jun 1 00:11:31 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PixelCraft Pro Imager scanners - DRIVERS!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ethan Dicks Rocks!! He was able to download the driver, which I've put here: http://www.siconic.com/download/misc/ColorAccess.lzh Hopefully, it will work. I'll do some testing in the next day or so to make sure it works. In the meantime, queue up your orders. I really have to get rid of these quick. I have 9 total. One is already taken. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 00:33:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <465FAA09.2090002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> <465FAA09.2090002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070531223013.P32124@shell.lmi.net> > >> N = 1; > >> A[N++] = N++; > On Thu, 31 May 2007, woodelf wrote: > But how larger is your program overhead with modern C compilers? > PS. It will not complle under C "main(){ ... }" is needed at least. a code fragment, NOT a complete program Yes, there would be overhead required, along with variable declarations, etc. But ordinary overhead is nowhere near the problem that is caused by ambiguity. From technobug at comcast.net Fri Jun 1 00:39:33 2007 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:39:33 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706010118.l511HVY6056031@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706010118.l511HVY6056031@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5DD4FE99-1F71-44DB-9F7C-EBB4D2EED41E@comcast.net> On Thu, 31 May 2007 14:56:37 -0700, "Rick Bensene" wrote: > I have an old glass TTY-type terminal made by a company called TEC. [...] > but figured I'd ask here first to see if anyone has > any information on the company or their terminals. > > Thanks in advance. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Web Museum > http://oldcalculatorm TEC was a Tucson, AZ based company that IIRC started out producing the logic-controlled, neon indicator lights that populated the fronts of IBM 360s and the like. Seeing the writing on the wall they branched into terminals and keyboards. The first terminals were upper case only. I was at the UofAZ computer center in the mid '70s visiting friends when one of TEC's folks brought in a new prototype upper/lower case terminals that we immediately hooked up to the local DEC10. We soon discovered that they used lower case for control codes... They really never got thing right. In the late 70's they spent a pile developing a mini which I, along with a group from the UofA were invited to evaluate. Seems that they invented the PDP8 right after the Nova 1200 and PDP11 had been released with a selling price higher than either of the competition. The indicator business died and they went under in the early '80s IIRC. Their legacy was a Superfund cleanup site... CRC From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jun 1 00:38:09 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:38:09 -0700 Subject: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. In-Reply-To: <465F97A5.9050700@msm.umr.edu> References: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> <465F97A5.9050700@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <2da601c7a40f$09b26760$0901a8c0@liberator> I think that this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracor is the tracor, inc that made the test rig that kaypro was part of, possibly something for the military. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. Dave McGuire wrote: > > I can see paying $50 for a Kaypro II. Maybe even $75. > > But $25,000.00? > > eBay #300039229895 the guy who listed it didn't do his logic right. A Kaypro II s/n 3 is arguably worth some amount, maybe more than a pedestrian one is, and if it is primo I agree, I'd pop a couple of hundred or so in a good mood. But the s/n 00003 he is gaga over is for the test set the Kaypro was part of. Probably some specialty house who had two lame attempts as s/n 1 and 2,and this might be the last. Nothing to do with anything special at kaypro. total miss by whoever listed it. I agree $50 or so on a good day. where is dk these days, he needs to drop a few thousand on this one. jim From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jun 1 00:44:47 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:44:47 -0700 Subject: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. In-Reply-To: <465F97A5.9050700@msm.umr.edu> References: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> <465F97A5.9050700@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <2daa01c7a40f$fa1e1a50$0901a8c0@liberator> Apparently this was listed back in 06 also... again for 25k. someone has no clue. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jun 1 00:54:59 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. In-Reply-To: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> References: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 May 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > I can see paying $50 for a Kaypro II. Maybe even $75. > > But $25,000.00? > > eBay #300039229895 A lot of the prices he's asking for his other stuff are rather out of line. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 04:25:19 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:25:19 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <11c909eb0706010225i2fccd17fyb0b784e349e5dc6b@mail.gmail.com> On 31/05/07, James wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125971585&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk > > Optimistic is an under statement :-) > I shudder to think what the price tag would be if it had a power supply and a console:) -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 05:16:21 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 03:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Booting a Vax 11/750 Message-ID: <106559.53102.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, the consensus is that I really don't need that RDM board in order to boot the Vax. So, I'm going to go ahead and see if I can boot something (anything) on this machine. I figure I'll start with NetBSD, since it's free and easy to get. I have no disk controller. But I do have an M7454 TU80 controller. Will this controller work with a normal pertec tape drive, like a Cipher? Since I have SCSI nine track drives, I can write a tape from my PC (linux box) and then I can move the tape over to the Vax. (hopefully). Once there, how do I boot - is the boot device switch controlled by the RDM, or something else? Thanks! -Ian From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Jun 1 05:16:28 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 11:16:28 +0100 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <200705311622.l4VGLWwl043370@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705311622.l4VGLWwl043370@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 31 May, 2007, at 17:22, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 06:00:46 -0500 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <465EAADE.6030809 at yahoo.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed >> >> I would hope that somebody here could look inside their machine >> and tell >> you the markings on the capacitor if the original one is so badly >> damaged >> as to be unreadable. > > If it was the mains suppression cap then I believe it's a standard > X2 class > 250V part* in the UK (but then presumably a different part gets > used here in > the US version) > > * I think they only sell X2's rated for 275V these days. Farnell > and RS do > them I belive, but I'm not sure that Maplin do any more. > > I might haul mine back home tomorrow (it's at Bletchley, but as we > now have an > A/// there it doesn't need to stay) in which case I can take a look > - I need > to replace that cap in mine anyway. There may be a difference between US and European power supplies. My spare one is in its original box, marked AP III Euro, EM WR SUP, 669-9050. The PCB is marked ASTEC AA11190 and the back panel is marked 220VAC 50-60Hz, so NOT 110 volt compatible. If it is one of the four black upright ones at the rear of the PCB, they are all marked 250v 100microFarad +105 degrees C. There is also a rectangular yellow one marked 0.22 microFarad at X 250v~MP whatever that means. There's another 20 capacitors on the board, so if yours is a european one and its one of the other 20 capacitors, you had better let me know which one. Roger Holmes Technical Director, Microspot Ltd. Developers of 2D and 3D graphic software for the Apple Macintosh. From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 1 06:22:00 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 06:22:00 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 31, 7 04:24:49 pm" Message-ID: <200706011024.l51AOwHq021589@hosting.monisys.ca> > > N = 1; > > A[N++] = N++; > > I'd expect that to evaluate to a[1]=2 and n winds up being 3. But I'm weird. This simple code snippet invokes "undefined behaviour" because: 'N' is modified twice within a single sequence block. 'N' is referenced within a sequence block separately from a modification occuring within the same sequence block. One might expect: N = 1 Save address of A[1] ++N (address of A[1]) = 2 ++N Which gives you the result you expected, however a compiler is free to perform the side effects occuring within a sequence block at any time it wishes, as long as it observes the charactistics of the operator causing the side effect. (ie: one instance of N++ cannot increment N before retrieving it's value, although the other instance of N++ could have incremented it). N = 1 A[1] = 1 N += 2 A[1] = 1, N = 3 N = 1; ++N (the second one) A[2] = 1 (saved from above ++N) ++N (the first one) A[2] = 1, N = 3 N = 1 Set temp to replace N to N+1 A[1] = 1 Set temp to replace N to N+1 N = temp to replace N A[1] = 1, N = 2 You get the idea - run the above sequence without violating the terms I mentioned at the beginning (ie: use separate variables) and the same answer occurs in all cases. Btw, technically, according to the standard, the compiler is free to say: N = 1 Humm... undefined behaviour... A[500] = 9999 N = -1 Although I've never seen an implementation which actually does this - usually you can fine some logical reason for the results. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 1 06:32:51 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:32:51 -0300 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <465ED118.2841.13F18CA@cclist.sydex.com><465F6DBE.5030704@gmail.com> <465FA8F5.1060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <052301c7a441$372b1bb0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> I light thermite with glycerine + potassium permanganate. How? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 1 06:35:50 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:35:50 -0300 Subject: WDXT-150 utilities? References: <438755.56557.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> > But that's effective in performing a low-level > format, no? Of this I'm pretty sure. If it's an oldie > (apparently) then fine. But with *newer* drives, and I > don't know how new, you'll lose skew rates or whatever > if you perform a ll format. You won't damage the > drive, as is often said, but you'll lose some > efficiency I guess. "Moroless". I remember some WD and Seagate controllers had more than just a low level formatter. I'm quite sure (although I don't see that in more than 10 years) that some seagate cards had a big menu with options like changing interleave, finding best interleave, low level format, surface test et al. Maybe I'm mistaken, who knows? :oP From pechter at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 07:05:08 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:05:08 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <898917.41419.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <04a401c7a3f0$e8dfd450$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 5/31/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 5/31/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > I think Virginia Tech was a customer. Too bad the port never got the > > > marketing it deserved. SVR4 with the Amiga graphics could've been a > slick > > > video editing system. > > > > The Amiga OS with the Amiga graphics is a very slick video edit > system > > anyways :) > > I've wanted to play with Amix, but just haven't had the time to load > it - I do have plenty of spare SCSI drives, and at least one A3000/25 > with a full boat of onboard RAM and an A2065, but, to be honest, when > Amix was fresh, I was using AmigaDOS every day, didn't have a spare > machine, didn't have (still don't have) better graphics than the > onboard ECS chips, and was already running UNIX on other hardware that > wasn't as slick as the Amiga. > > So... in my book, Amix wasn't a terrible idea, but it just never > seemed like a slam-dunk for me personally. Don't get me wrong; I love > UNIX, and have been using and adminstrating and developing on it for > 23 years (starting with 4BSD and SysV on a VAX-11/750). I just think > the Amiga can do a lot more interesting stuff under its native OS, and > there's *plenty* of platforms out there for which UNIX _is_ the best > choice. > > -ethan > Look what it could've done to the workstation market in price/performance if someone other thah Commodore was doing it/selling it. bill -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 1 07:36:30 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 05:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: from Bill Pechter at "Jun 1, 7 08:05:08 am" Message-ID: <200706011236.l51CaUrg028856@floodgap.com> > > > > I think Virginia Tech was a customer. Too bad the port never got the > > > > marketing it deserved. SVR4 with the Amiga graphics could've been a > > > > slick video editing system. [...] > > So... in my book, Amix wasn't a terrible idea, but it just never > > seemed like a slam-dunk for me personally. [...] > Look what it could've done to the workstation market in price/performance if > someone other than Commodore was doing it/selling it. The same probably could have been said about the Commodore 900, though. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And now for something completely different. -- Monty Python ---------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 08:50:29 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:50:29 -0500 Subject: PixelCraft Pro Imager scanners - DRIVERS!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601082958.070603e0@mail> At 12:11 AM 6/1/2007, you wrote: >Ethan Dicks Rocks!! He was able to download the driver, which I've put here: >http://www.siconic.com/download/misc/ColorAccess.lzh >Hopefully, it will work. I'll do some testing in the next day or so to >make sure it works. In the meantime, queue up your orders. I really have >to get rid of these quick. Hmm. That's not the driver. The Japanese for that file says "Checking the accessibility of color of the Web site and the like", and the other files on the left are all about color, too. The LZH/lharc has two files, readme and ColorAccess.exe. It's a small Windows program that doesn't run well for me, although it opens a window with Japanese menus. It was developed by Masahiko Sugimura, a color researcher for Fujitsu; one of the footnotes points to a paper on color blindness. Maybe it's time to start charging for my Google skeelz. :-) I cannot give credit to my years of college Japanese, but all praise goes to the Babelfish. Maybe this guy has a copy: http://www.hsinfosystems.com/biographies/RSchulz.html 11x17 scanners are going for $60 to $600 on eBay, plus S/H. Some duplex, some ADF, some meant for docs, other for color. Sellam's units look new in box, no? But no ADF. - John From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jun 1 02:28:14 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:28:14 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Sounds like a good idea. How do I do that? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: 01 June 2007 01:22 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Rod Smallwood wrote: > Boot er no but as it seems as the system spent some or all of its life > in the insurance industry I'm not surprised the disks have been wiped. > Ok so next move. I'm going to try and make a VMS 6.2 bootable tape on > the -200 as the -300 has a TK70. They both have ethernet, why don't you just boot the 300 from the 200 using MOP? Peace... Sridhar From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jun 1 02:42:49 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:42:49 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." "Long time passing" "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." "Long time ago..." " To the scrap man ... Every one... " "Where have all the power supplies gone etc. etc." What a plonker!! (British expression) Rod Smallwood DecCollector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Sent: 31 May 2007 23:21 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125971585&fromMa keTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk Optimistic is an under statement :-) From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jun 1 02:44:32 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:44:32 +0100 Subject: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I managed to find a slim one that fits and the door shuts!!! Rod Smallwood DecCollector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org Sent: 31 May 2007 22:11 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Power plug for a VAX 4000-300 Rod Smallwood wrote: > So whilst what I have will probably run, its not the correct cable. > It should be a right angled IEC type with a groove or slot opposite > the middle pin. The right angle is needed only if you want to shut the front door. If you don't have a right angle one, you either leave the door open or remove it (it comes off very easily ... it becomes lost very easily too :-)) Antonio From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 1 04:33:50 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:33:50 +0100 Subject: more eBay stuff In-Reply-To: <210908.59395.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <210908.59395.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1180690430.11571.9.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 23:51 +0100, Andrew Burton wrote: > Hehe, I did see some issue of Byte for sale on eBay the other day (not the same auction), but decided against it as I don;t have the space :( > > I did get "Graphic On The ARM Machines" by Roger Amos (published by Dabs Press in January 1993). Not hugely great for me since I don't have an Acorn Archemedes (though I did use them at Secondary School in the early 90's) I thought, but I decided to snap it up anyway for ?5 since noone else had bid on it. > The book came today and looks to be an interesting read. One of the first chapters talks about Vector graphics which is bound to teach me something. In one of the later chapters it talks about fonts, how they were made/stored and even anti-aliasing! > Now I *know* anti-aliasing didn't make it into games consoles until 1997 (on Nintendo's N64 console), but I assumed it was something totally new at that time. Now I realise it must have been new to games consoles. > Does anyone here know when anti-aliasing was first used and who came up with it? (No time to google it tonight) Well, Deluxe Paint had anti-aliasing. The principle has been around for a very, very long time. Games consoles had it well before the N64 was around, just not on hardware-accelerated 3D. It's actually particularly critical for graphics that are to be keyed over video, because the hard edges of digitally-generated text will make the audio buzz. This is because the upper harmonics extend out past the sound subcarrier. It's only noticeable on old TVs, really, but I remember noticing that my sound would buzz when captions came up. Now since the whole lot is done digitally, it's not such a big problem - and we can throw more computing power and greater bit-depth at it anyway. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 1 04:39:12 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:39:12 +0100 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 12:53 -0600, woodelf wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > OI let's not forget Thermite! You combine rust and > > powdered aluminum, ignite it (with a *storm match*, > > whatever that is), and it produces 6000 degrees F. > > Useful for welding train rails together, and rudders > > on battle ships. > A similar compound they believe was in the paint of the > Hindenburg. I saw a TV programme about this a couple of years ago - seems that someone investigating the Hindenburg explosion had turned up a book of fabric samples painted with various dopes and exposed to large electric sparks. Most had small holes from about the size of a pin prick up to ones resembling a fag burn in a car seat. Then they turned to the page with the fabric and dope used on the Hindenburg - it was almost completely burnt away! I don't speak (or read) much German but I can recognise text that says "DO NOT USE THIS STUFF WHATEVER ELSE YOU DO!", but it seems that they *did* use it... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 1 05:55:05 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 11:55:05 +0100 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <328186.91945.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <328186.91945.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1180695306.11571.21.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 09:00 -0700, Chris M wrote: > --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Well, the value and voltage rating is stamped on > > them... > > Not if the cap is extra toasty. Yup, but if that's the case you can generally work out roughly what it's meant to be, particularly if others around it have survived. If you've got a total unknown then you can probably figure it out once you've got the rest of the circuit figured out. > > > You still haven't told us how you work up a > > schematic > > > either. I'm losing my patience. > > > > Have a guess. Go on, just have a guess. It's > > simple really. > > uhh, I dunno. You stare at it and gleen what you can > from that (problem if you have multiple layer boards). > Then use an ohm meter to ferret out the rest? I think > I've heard something to the effect that *some* chips > could be damaged that way though. But I suppose if > you're well acquainted with electonic stuff, you'd > know when and where to apply that. Like I said, I dunno. Pretty much. Sometimes (like when I was sorting out the analogue end of my Ensoniq Mirage) I'll remove a couple of chips to figure out what the tracks underneath are doing. If there are a group of similar chips you can often figure out what a bunch of them are doing just by looking at one. For instance, in the Mirage there are a few 4051 multiplexers, and some TL084 op-amps, and some capacitors with one end connected to ground. These form the sample-and-holds for the VCF cutoff and resonance control voltages. Once you've got one, the rest are obvious. Gordon From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 1 09:59:10 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 07:59:10 -0700 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0706010225i2fccd17fyb0b784e349e5dc6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> <11c909eb0706010225i2fccd17fyb0b784e349e5dc6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:25 AM +0100 6/1/07, Pete Edwards wrote: >On 31/05/07, James wrote: >> >> >>http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125971585&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk >> >>Optimistic is an under statement :-) >> > >I shudder to think what the price tag would be if it had a power supply and >a console:) At 1490UKP, I'd say they're crazy. Am I correct in assuming the power supplies are likely to be the most valuable pieces on a VAX-11/780? Without all the doors, it is even more worthless. I wonder what condition the card cage & backplane is in, and how many cards it is missing. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 1 10:15:10 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:15:10 -0500 Subject: WDXT-150 utilities? In-Reply-To: <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <438755.56557.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <466037FE.1040407@mdrconsult.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> But that's effective in performing a low-level >> format, no? Of this I'm pretty sure. If it's an oldie >> (apparently) then fine. But with *newer* drives, and I >> don't know how new, you'll lose skew rates or whatever >> if you perform a ll format. You won't damage the >> drive, as is often said, but you'll lose some >> efficiency I guess. > > "Moroless". I remember some WD and Seagate controllers had more than > just a low level formatter. I'm quite sure (although I don't see that in > more than 10 years) that some seagate cards had a big menu with options > like changing interleave, finding best interleave, low level format, > surface test et al. Maybe I'm mistaken, who knows? :oP The owner's manual for the WDXT150 mentions "installing the software for the adapter", but nothing more specific than that. Mostly I want to know "how do I specify CHS geometry?" Oh, and can I use a CF adapter.... Doc From pechter at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 10:24:38 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 11:24:38 -0400 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> <11c909eb0706010225i2fccd17fyb0b784e349e5dc6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 10:25 AM +0100 6/1/07, Pete Edwards wrote: > >On 31/05/07, James wrote: > >> > >> > >> > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125971585&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk > >> > >>Optimistic is an under statement :-) > >> > > > >I shudder to think what the price tag would be if it had a power supply > and > >a console:) > > At 1490UKP, I'd say they're crazy. Am I correct in assuming the > power supplies are likely to be the most valuable pieces on a > VAX-11/780? Without all the doors, it is even more worthless. I > wonder what condition the card cage & backplane is in, and how many > cards it is missing. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > Probably worth about $50 USD as untested spare parts. Not worth the petrol to drag it home in my opinion. Now if it was complete and in working condition... I might think it would have some value. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 10:27:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:27:23 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: <0JIX00MJLFBEG4B5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JIX00MJLFBEG4B5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <465FD86B.16511.543AFD0@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2007 at 18:19, Allison wrote: > The 1400 series was after the 1500 series and was effectively a cost > reduced (cheaper to build and sell) terminal. The 1400 was circa > 1976-78 or so. Am I the only one who actually used one of these and hated it? I had one hooked to an MDS800 development system. For the time, they were inexpensive, but there were better terminals around--and the use of a displayable character (tilde) as the escape code leadin made things more trouble than the terminals were worth. I think I may even have the code for a full-screen editor written in PL/M somewhere. Cheers, Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 1 10:50:11 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:50:11 -0300 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply References: <3afee7520705262025n448f46bfrccc22314bf39d31a@mail.gmail.com><06b101c7a132$c36f8190$f0fea8c0@alpha> <3afee7520705311814y3f7f564fh545841f1a2bda1aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <05bc01c7a464$f81cf280$f0fea8c0@alpha> > On 5/28/07, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> > Rather than repair it I'm looking to replace it with another. >> Erik, this is an easy repair! > As it turns out, you (and just about everyone else who chimed in) were > right - the repair was easy and nothing else in the PS was damaged. > I found a power supply at my local junque place with the right cap and > used it to replace my blown one. The /// is back up and running fine. > It'll be off to its new owner shortly. > Thanks to everyone who replied, both on and off topic. ;) Woooo! Now you aren't afraid of trying that anymore, huh? ;o) Congratulations! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 1 11:05:02 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 13:05:02 -0300 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" atMay 30, 7 08:14:57 pm, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <05dc01c7a467$1d9a59b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > A modern board that has chips that are listed in a databook? Ha! www.datasheetarchive.com is your friend, as are the sites of the manufacturers of the chips ;o) Of course, you hardly would find any datasheet about a proprietary ASIC. I see no troubles finding any datasheets. If you need some help, drop a mail! Greetz Alexandre From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 11:23:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:23:12 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <05dc01c7a467$1d9a59b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <05dc01c7a467$1d9a59b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <465FE580.1358.576CFBC@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 13:05, Alexandre Souza wrote: > I see no troubles finding any datasheets. If you need some help, drop a > mail! A fair number of the denser boards that I've run into have PLDs at the least--and many house-numbered parts in addition. If you'd like a challenge, I can run a number of these past you and see how you fare. Mostly, you run into dead-ends without gaining much of a clue. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 11:26:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WDXT-150 utilities? In-Reply-To: <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <438755.56557.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20070601092309.S47933@shell.lmi.net> > > But that's effective in performing a low-level > > format, no? Of this I'm pretty sure. If it's an oldie On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, Alexandre Souza wrote: > "Moroless". I remember some WD and Seagate controllers had more than > just a low level formatter. I'm quite sure (although I don't see that in > more than 10 years) that some seagate cards had a big menu with options like > changing interleave, finding best interleave, low level format, surface test > et al. Maybe I'm mistaken, who knows? :oP Speedstor was fairly good for low level formatting. Watch out, though. There was a short period of time in which Steve Gibson? made the defaults include restoring to use sectors that had been marked bad, but that successfully formatted! That negated the manufacturers' tests that had marked some sectors as being untrustworthy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From shumaker at att.net Fri Jun 1 11:29:21 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:29:21 -0700 Subject: I had no idea Kaypros were so valuable. In-Reply-To: References: <0FD56371-4EB2-4951-9179-6B6C565A9EE3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200706011631.l51GVMgc000365@keith.ezwind.net> interesting... The fuzzy number in the lower left part of the TRACOR label plate looks like a federal govt contract number. That would explain the "test set" verbiage as well as the really low "serial number" s shumaker At 10:54 PM 5/31/2007, you wrote: >On Thu, 31 May 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I can see paying $50 for a Kaypro II. Maybe even $75. > > > > But $25,000.00? > > > > eBay #300039229895 > >A lot of the prices he's asking for his other stuff are rather out of >line. > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 11:33:24 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WDXT-150 utilities? In-Reply-To: <466037FE.1040407@mdrconsult.com> References: <438755.56557.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <052401c7a441$37645420$f0fea8c0@alpha> <466037FE.1040407@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20070601093100.T47933@shell.lmi.net> Sorry In my mention of Speedstor, the warning about inappropriate unmarking of bad sectors is a fault of some versions of SPINRITE, not SPEEDSTOR. unrefreshed wetware dynamic RAM is not reliable. From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Jun 1 11:42:41 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:42:41 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <001901c7a46b$e07e2d90$8b04010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Sounds like a good idea. How do I do that? You configure the 4000-200 into a cluster (of one). Then you tell it that it will have the VAX 4000-300 as a LAVC cluster member. Then boot the VAX 4000-300 into the cluster. Then proceed as I outlined previously. Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 11:49:12 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <20070601094810.H47933@shell.lmi.net> > > > OI let's not forget Thermite! You combine rust and > > A similar compound they believe was in the paint of the > > Hindenburg. > text that says "DO NOT USE THIS STUFF WHATEVER ELSE YOU DO!", but it > seems that they *did* use it... "Oh the huge manatee!" From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 12:12:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 11:12:00 -0600 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 31 May 2007 16:24:49 -0700. <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20070531162009.F32124 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > For example, what would you expect from: > (and would you really expect it to behave the same on other compilers?) > > N = 1; > A[N++] = N++; I think in this case the result is undefined, but a variable at an inner scope hiding a variable at an outer scope *is* defined and should work as advertised. On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 12:13:23 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 11:13:23 -0600 Subject: usenet nostalgia (was: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 31 May 2007 22:07:08 -0700. <465F470C.28764.30BD5D8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <465F470C.28764.30BD5D8 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > place back then; while there were knock-down drag-out discussions, > they were always pretty polite. Usenet had the same proportion of asshole users back then, just that they were fewer in absolute number because the size of the total users was less. I dealt with plenty of asshole users on usenet, even in 1988. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 12:25:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 13:25:31 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: > > For example, what would you expect from: > > N = 1; > > A[N++] = N++; > > On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. Out of a cannon, hopefully. Unfortunately, I've seen my share of messes caused by tricks similar to this. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 1 12:26:31 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:26:31 -0700 Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com Message-ID: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> > With all the Kaypro 10 in the group I wondered if someone could send me > a copy of the format.com. I located the source for the program today, and have made imagedisk images of the dealer diagnostic disc. http://bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG/Kaypro/Kaypro10/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 12:50:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:50:03 -0700 Subject: usenet nostalgia (was: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff)) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <465FF9DB.31795.5C6534B@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 11:13, Richard wrote: > Usenet had the same proportion of asshole users back then, just that > they were fewer in absolute number because the size of the total users > was less. I dealt with plenty of asshole users on usenet, even in > 1988. Or, in my case, in 1982. But "trolls" weren't nearly as common then as they are today. Cheers, Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jun 1 12:56:58 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 13:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Bill Pechter > > > A friend of mine who worked at Fort Monmouth and USL worked on the port -- > IIRC. > > I think Virginia Tech was a customer. Too bad the port never got the > marketing it deserved. SVR4 with the Amiga graphics could've been a slick > video editing system. > Note key word "marketing" and remember we are talking about Commodore, which can mean anti-marketing.. :-/ Cheers, Bryan From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jun 1 13:15:12 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Schematics (was: Apple /// Power Supply) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070601181512.7766D58AB1@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Tony Duell > > > > > Dan, that's fine advice. But a capacitor is just a > > capacitor. They blow. No reason someone shouldn't > > replace one if that'll get their computer back up and > > running. > > The Tandy 2000 used a funky p/s that was prone to, I > > think, one particular cap blowing. What can you do? > > You could jury rig another p/s in it's place. But when > > mine went (in 1989) I looked at the schematic, and > > Incidentally, IIRC, the Tandy 2000 PSU schematic is reprinted in the 2nd > edition of The Art of Elecrtronics (!) > Speaking of schematics, the TRS-80 schematic (plus a couple of Radio Shack pong-style videogame schematics) are reprinted and discussed in "Troubleshooting Microprocessors & Digital Logic" by Robert L. Goodman. Cheers, Bryan From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jun 1 13:17:35 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Burroughs ICON In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20070531190230.025d5980@pop.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070601181735.E617758A41@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Devon Stopps > > Someone on the list has (had?) a few. I can't remember who, check the > archives. > I have tried searching the archives before, but it always came back with zero results no matter what I entered for the search string. :( Cheers, Bryan > >Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:52:37 -0400 (EDT) > >From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) > >Subject: Re: Burroughs ICON > > > >And thusly were the wise words spake by Chris M > >> > >> Anyone have one? They were popular in Canada (maybe > >> made there??). I want it. > >> > > > >Ontario to be exact, where I used them in high school. Their OS was > >QNX, another Canadian company. :) I have yet to see in available, > >though.. :( > > > >Cheers, > > > >Bryan > From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jun 1 13:18:31 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:18:31 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com In-Reply-To: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> References: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <466062F7.9040207@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > With all the Kaypro 10 in the group I wondered if someone could send me > > a copy of the format.com. > > I located the source for the program today, and have made imagedisk images > of the dealer diagnostic disc. > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG/Kaypro/Kaypro10/ > > > You can find source code for some of the kaypro utilities on one of my web pages. It was on the hard disk of a kaypro 10 that I once had: http://www.thebattles.net/oddments/oddments.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 13:29:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:29:25 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Bryan Pope wrote: > Note key word "marketing" and remember we are talking about Commodore, > which can mean anti-marketing.. :-/ My favorite phrase of the day was "if Commodore were to market sushi, they'd call it cold, raw, dead fish." -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 13:31:50 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:31:50 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> At 12:56 PM 6/1/2007, Bryan Pope wrote: >Note key word "marketing" and remember we are talking about Commodore, >which can mean anti-marketing.. :-/ Yes, CBM's marketing was the first time I heard the old joke about "If they bought out Kentucky Fried Chicken, they'd rename the company Warm Dead Bird." Gadzooks there was lots of "What if" wishing being done by Amiga developers back in the day. As with many tech industries, I think it stems most strongly from the base of lower-level techies who in their gut fervently believe that if a product is somehow technically superior, it should win in the marketplace. The Amiga did pioneer so very many things, but in the end, sheer numbers win, and as the Mac and PC market blew past it, carrying the mutated developments with it. Lots of its "who needs it?" soon became "must haves": color graphics, sound, multitasking, video, networking, hypertext. But I know I've said this before - in a post below, almost old enough to make the ten-year-rule. - John >Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:38:24 +0000 >To: classiccmp at u.washington.edu >From: John Foust >Subject: Re: Old computer books > >At 07:25 AM 6/25/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: >>Why not? The Soul of a New Machine, Insanely Great, and Hackers seemed >>to do just fine, to name a few. I don't mean an encyclopedia, but a >>bunch of stories about the design of stuff (i.e. a chapter on how >>Multics was made, a chapter on how the Apple arose, a chapter on where >>the ENIAC came from,etc.). > >Once upon a time when I was in the thick of it, I thought about writing >a book about the history of the Amiga, where even from the early days >it clear the machine had strengths beyond the more popular computers >of the time, and that it was swimming against the current. > >The problem in my mind was that there was no guiding thread, no "hook", >no core story, no moral or lesson - just fumbling computer companies, >insane investors, inept marketroids, crazy genius types, etc. Is this >interesting enough, or just interesting to Amiga-heads? I knew other >people who thought about writing a book like this who had similar >concern about lack of focus, about how to make the story interesting >enough for someone who wasn't personally involved in some aspect of it. > >One clarifying thought was inspired by the drunken ramblings of an >Amiga dealer during the last days at a NewTek party, who said "It's >like we were from five years in the future, and we had television, >and we were trying to explain it to people who'd only seen a radio. >Radio with pictures? Who wants that?" > >There's another lesson to be told about the tendency of techies to >believe that technical excellence should always Win, but it rarely >does. Then again, maybe these sorts of Valley stories rarely have >a point. :-) > >- John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jun 1 13:59:41 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:59:41 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> Message-ID: On 31/5/07 23:21, "James" wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180125971585&fromMakeTrac > k=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk > > Optimistic is an under statement :-) The first ONE MIPS machine? Netware software called DecNet? Anyone fancy mailing this doofus to correct his vastly overpriced auction? Heh. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 14:00:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:00:08 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> References: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, John Foust wrote: > The Amiga did pioneer so very many things, but in the end, > sheer numbers win, and as the Mac and PC market blew past it, > carrying the mutated developments with it. Lots of its "who needs it?" > soon became "must haves": color graphics, sound, multitasking, video, > networking, hypertext. I heard it over and over again back in the day... "Graphics? That's for games. We have 80 column text!" "Color? Who needs color for spreadsheets?" "Sound? Who needs sound for business apps?" "Video? Who needs video at work?" "Networking? We can move files on floppies." "Multitasking? Nobody needs that on a personal computer." "Mice? They look silly and get in the way of the keyboard." and on and on and on... Of course, once the PC Crowd latches onto one of those technologies, it's the "greatest thing evar". Doesn't matter that you had it 5+ years before and they didn't care. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 14:00:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070601114603.Y47933@shell.lmi.net> > > > For example, what would you expect from: > > > N = 1; > > > A[N++] = N++; > > On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. > Out of a cannon, hopefully. . . . into the sun. (Turanga Leela explaining to Philip Fry that "you gotta do what you gotta do") > Unfortunately, I've seen my share of > messes caused by tricks similar to this. . . . followed by complaints that the compiler didn't do what they expected, and claims that there is a bug in the compiler, because it behaved differently than their "baby duck" compiler. In the first semester of C, I try to teach students to optimize for readability, and to avoid compound steps. But, in the second semester, I get some students who have learned bad habits, and think that they are "optimizing" their code when they attempt to write Holub-style "puzzle" code. Even an erudite explanation, such as what Dave posted, gets a response of "well, it works on xxx compiler!" It is true, that scope of variables IS defined, and should function as expected. But there were a LOT of variations in early compilers, some legit, and some bad. Complex compound lines, even when they follow all of the rules, such as: while (*T++=*S++); make finding and isolating problems difficult. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 1 14:02:34 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" Message-ID: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> This is a fascinating, if somewhat qualitative, comparison of user interface and functionality of a Mac Plus and an AMD dual core. Presented without further commentary. http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Bruce Geller -------------------------------------------------- From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jun 1 14:09:10 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: usenet nostalgia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, Richard wrote: > Usenet had the same proportion of asshole users back then, just that > they were fewer in absolute number because the size of the total users > was less. I dealt with plenty of asshole users on usenet, even in > 1988. And before that time, the BBS systems had pretty much the same types of users. People write things from behind a screen which they would never say to your face. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 14:21:33 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:21:33 -0600 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:31:50 -0500. <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: In article <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0 at mail>, John Foust writes: > carrying the mutated developments with it. Lots of its "who needs it?" > soon became "must haves": color graphics, sound, multitasking, video, > networking, hypertext. The rest of it, yeah, but not networking and hypertext. By "not" I mean that those are not thing that were groundbreaking with the Amiga. The Mac had Hypercard and the Amiga never had any decent networking until long after it was introduced. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 14:25:24 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:25:24 -0600 Subject: usenet nostalgia (was: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:50:03 -0700. <465FF9DB.31795.5C6534B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <465FF9DB.31795.5C6534B at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Or, in my case, in 1982. I was reading usenet in the 82-86 range, but didn't really participate in a big way until '88. > But "trolls" weren't nearly as common then > as they are today. Proportionately speaking, yes, they were. There were just fewer in absolute numbers because the user base was smaller. Usenet and to a certain extent the protocols of the internet like mail, are predicated upon most people following the honor system. The honor system doesn't scale. Its the same reason why we need cops and jails. Once you achieve a certain critical mass in the population, there's a chunk of people who psychologically feel that they can behave like assholes because they are essentially strangers. Noone's going to be banging on the front door of their house and giving them shit about their usenet post. In a smaller community where everyone knows each other, the peer pressure keeps you from acting like a jerk. You feel more secure acting like a jerk in a large crowd or in a community where noone knows you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 14:43:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:43:47 -0700 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: , <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail>, Message-ID: <46601483.14943.62E7134@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 15:00, Ethan Dicks wrote: > and on and on and on... > > Of course, once the PC Crowd latches onto one of those technologies, > it's the "greatest thing evar". Doesn't matter that you had it 5+ > years before and they didn't care. Aw c'mon Ethan. Much of this stuff was available as third-party add- ons at around the same time or even earlier for the PC platform. In fact, the EGA and PGA both predate the Amiga in the marketplace by a full year. You might as well criticize the Amiga for not having an integral scanner. But, in view of the PC as a serious business machine, many of these observations are quite accurate. Bread-and-butter applications in 1985 were spreadsheet, word processing, database and the usual bookkeeping apps (AP, AR, GL, Payroll, Order entry, etc.). A key criterion for compatibility was "Will it run Lotus 123?" You don't need much more than a beep for those in the way of sound. Heck, I've still got a light pen for a PC. I look at it in the same way the audiophiles do. You can buy an all- in-one box at the outset or you can go the component route. Which makes more sense depends on your needs. As long as you're offering components, you don't stand a chance offering an all-in-one box as direct competition. Many manufacturers who attempted to do so (outside of laptop/notebook vendors) received a rude surprise. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 14:50:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:50:02 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: > The rest of it, yeah, but not networking and hypertext. By "not" I > mean that those are not thing that were groundbreaking with the Amiga. > The Mac had Hypercard and the Amiga never had any decent networking > until long after it was introduced. That's true. I shouldn't have lumped networking into that list. My only excuse was that I was into networking Amigas long before most other users cared about it. I remember debating with the comp.sys.amiga.networking crowd as to the desirability of SANA (Standard Amiga Network Architecture) drivers for 3rd-party non-ethernet networking hardware, long past the point that it should have been a no-brainer. The "problem" was that AmigaOS didn't come with TCP/IP, so most users didn't care if your network widget talked SANA or not - it didn't _have_ to interoperate to be useful, and some of the more vocal users (luddites) decried the complexity of SANA and the associated network stacks. At the same time in the DOS world, all networking was add-on, and the Mac had out-of-the-box networking, but it was a closed network standard (Mac to Mac only). TCP/IP took a while to trickle down from Workstations to Micros. -ethan From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 1 14:53:07 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:53:07 -0300 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> <20070601114603.Y47933@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> Dear friends I'm working into some 68301 (68000 for embbedded applications) old-equipment stuff. I'm completely lost into everything, I cannot even decompile/simulate the code on PC. Maybe some good and candid soul would lend a hand at least to get me started? I need only to do a very small mod into the program, but first need to understand how it works. Thanks a lot! Alexandre From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 14:54:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:54:54 -0600 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4660798E.4030204@jetnet.ab.ca> Rod Smallwood wrote: > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > "Long time passing" > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > "Long time ago..." > " To the scrap man ... Every one... " > > "Where have all the power supplies gone etc. etc." Chuckle ... I have Bod Dylan on the CD ... so by luck I had the music to go with lyrics. :) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 14:55:23 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:55:23 -0500 Subject: usenet nostalgia (was: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601145503.07304da8@mail> At 02:25 PM 6/1/2007, Richard wrote: >You feel more secure acting like a jerk in a large crowd or in a >community where noone knows you. You mean this theory? http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 14:46:53 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:46:53 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> References: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: <466077AD.2050701@yahoo.co.uk> John Foust wrote: > Gadzooks there was lots of "What if" wishing being done by > Amiga developers back in the day. As with many tech industries, > I think it stems most strongly from the base of lower-level techies who > in their gut fervently believe that if a product is somehow > technically superior, it should win in the marketplace. I don't think there's anything wrong with that belief though - it's just a shame that marketing will generally win over a more robust and well-designed product. As a species, I suspect we deserve what we get :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 14:51:28 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:51:28 -0500 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com> References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 30, 7 08:14:57 pm, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 May 2007 at 23:24, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Actually, if you'll let me use a BGA rework oven so I can remove said >> chips and get to the connections, and provided I have data on the chips, >> yes. It'd be a lot easier to work out a board with such chips on than a >> board with, say , 1000 discrete transistors on it. > > A modern board that has chips that are listed in a databook? Ha! > > I'll take the 1000 transistor board--it's more likely to be 2 layers > and most likely with circuits that repeat. Surely it's as much effort whether circuits repeat or not? Don't you still have to check all possible interconnects to make sure that you've got everything traced right, even if a quick visual inspection might make it appear that there's a lot of repetition? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 14:54:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:54:40 -0500 Subject: DRAM camera sensor In-Reply-To: <20070531155019.H32124@shell.lmi.net> References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> <20070531155019.H32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46607980.9010109@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 31 May 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: >> I remember a document from the 80s that described how to take a DRAM chip, >> decap it, and use it as a crude camera. I think I remember something about >> a lens too. It might have been a joke... >> This would have to be a ceramic type DRAM chip to be decapped by an >> individual (easily). >> Does anyone know what I'm talking about or have the document? I thought it >> sounded fun. : ) > > Ciarcia's column in Byte There was at least one UK computer magazine which carried such a project too - unfortunately I can't remember which one, let alone which year :-( I suspect it was later than the Byte one. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 15:11:01 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:11:01 -0600 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:50:02 -0400. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > TCP/IP took a while to trickle down from > Workstations to Micros. Agreed. I think it was the web browser that pushed the adoption and integration of TCP/IP. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 15:12:23 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:12:23 -0600 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C In-Reply-To: References: <20070601175658.1A44458ABE@mail.wordstock.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: <46607DA7.9050408@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Of course, once the PC Crowd latches onto one of those technologies, > it's the "greatest thing evar". Doesn't matter that you had it 5+ > years before and they didn't care. The PC still don't have PORN icons I remember seeing on the AMIGA ... Click on the scanty cad girl icon and ... The PC games sold a I think helped a lot of PC's sales like M$ flight-simulator for use after work even when the PC still had CGA. The reverse can't be said for the game console style marketing. Was it the Amiga 2000 that tried to give to the best ... err worst of both worlds? > -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 15:27:12 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:27:12 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <46601483.14943.62E7134@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> <46601483.14943.62E7134@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601151506.07139cd8@mail> At 02:43 PM 6/1/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >In fact, the EGA and PGA both predate the Amiga in the marketplace by a >full year. You might as well criticize the Amiga for not having an >integral scanner. Or another way of putting it, the PGA was introduced in '84 for the low price of $4290, the Amiga came out in '85 for $1300, and PGA went dodo in '87 when VGA arrived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Graphics_Controller If you could get an extra mortgage, you could've bought an SGI, too. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 15:33:19 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:33:19 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601152841.06a24568@mail> At 02:50 PM 6/1/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: >>The rest of it, yeah, but not networking and hypertext. By "not" I >>mean that those are not thing that were groundbreaking with the Amiga. >>The Mac had Hypercard and the Amiga never had any decent networking >>until long after it was introduced. > >That's true. I shouldn't have lumped networking into that list. My >only excuse was that I was into networking Amigas long before most >other users cared about it. Aww, I thought I'd get the blame for putting networking on that list. Yes, networking wasn't that common on PCs back then, either. My Amiga business partners thought a DECnet for Amiga would be real popular. We ported it. It wasn't. Not even paired with Dale Luck's X Window to turn the Amiga into an X term. Sometimes the ideas are in the wind - yes, Mac had Hypercard, but tagged text file help file / doc file systems were in place on the Amiga, too, predating HTML. - John From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jun 1 15:44:09 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 22:44:09 +0200 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net><20070601114603.Y47933@shell.lmi.net> <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9CF@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Alexandre Souza >Verzonden: vr 01-06-2007 21:53 >Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >Onderwerp: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff > > Dear friends > > I'm working into some 68301 (68000 for embbedded applications) >old-equipment stuff. I'm completely lost into everything, I cannot even >decompile/simulate the code on PC. Maybe some good and candid soul would >lend a hand at least to get me started? I need only to do a very small mod >into the program, but first need to understand how it works. > > Thanks a lot! > Alexandre Hi Alexandre, I know what you mean ... about a year ago I searched for a program running on a PC, but could execute 68000 code, preferably free :-) I found a few sites, but no software. Somehow I managed to stumble on something that *used* to be downloadable, but was no longer. Along some links I found a downloadable copy ... The program runs in a CMD box, at least it does in Windows 2000. You can load an 68000 program and run/step/breakpoint (?) it. If that's of any help (perhaps to more people into Moto 68k) I can mail it on Monday, because it's on my PC at work. Of course, your 68000 embedded application can only run as long as the program does not want to access specific hardware ... - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 15:52:51 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:52:51 -0600 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:54:54 -0600. <4660798E.4030204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <4660798E.4030204 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > Rod Smallwood wrote: > > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > > "Long time passing" > > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > > "Long time ago..." > > " To the scrap man ... Every one... " > > > > "Where have all the power supplies gone etc. etc." > > Chuckle ... I have Bod Dylan on the CD ... so by luck I had the > music to go with lyrics. :) Actually I was thinking of The Kinks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 16:02:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:02:17 -0700 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com>, <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 14:51, Jules Richardson wrote: > Surely it's as much effort whether circuits repeat or not? Don't you still > have to check all possible interconnects to make sure that you've got > everything traced right, even if a quick visual inspection might make it > appear that there's a lot of repetition? So, you're saying that it's easier deciphering a PCB with a couple of 544-conductor house-numbered BGAs on it than working through a PCB with 1000 discretes? I know how a transistor (resistor, capacitor, inductor) works, but I lack the psychic abilities to figure out what a house-labeled (or better, unlabeled) QFP, BGA or even a large DIP does, particularly if the maker's gone out of business. I have a ghost of a chance of figuring out (and repairing) the discrete board, even if the transistors are house-numbered. But I'm out of luck and skills working out a board filled with custom ICs with no data. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 16:17:20 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:17:20 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <052301c7a441$372b1bb0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <465ED118.2841.13F18CA@cclist.sydex.com><465F6DBE.5030704@gmail.com> <465FA8F5.1060707@jetnet.ab.ca> <052301c7a441$372b1bb0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46608CE0.4050603@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> I light thermite with glycerine + potassium permanganate. > > How? Mix them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80Q3GgeeIVM Peace... Sridhar From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 16:19:17 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:19:17 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601151506.07139cd8@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> <46601483.14943.62E7134@cclist.sydex.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601151506.07139cd8@mail> Message-ID: <51ea77730706011419x58e8712an43fef9fba6fb9fe7@mail.gmail.com> On 6/1/07, John Foust wrote: > Or another way of putting it, the PGA was introduced in '84 for > the low price of $4290, the Amiga came out in '85 for $1300, > and PGA went dodo in '87 when VGA arrived. And who else on ebay has one, but our old friend "it_equipment_xpress?" ($133 + at least double actual shipping costs!) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 16:19:53 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:19:53 -0600 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? Message-ID: I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 16:29:54 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:29:54 -0400 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601152841.06a24568@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601132059.06f70cd0@mail> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601152841.06a24568@mail> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, John Foust wrote: > My Amiga business partners thought a DECnet for Amiga would be > real popular. We ported it. It wasn't. Not even paired with > Dale Luck's X Window to turn the Amiga into an X term. I remember that - I was working with VAXen every day when I got my own Amiga in 1986, but never had the desire to hook it to our DECnet network (it didn't help that we didn't have a scrap of Ethernet hardware - all of our DECnet was over DDCMP and sync serial, and contained in about a 25' radius. It was all local terminals and SET/HOST to get from one box to another). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 16:34:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:34:07 -0400 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9CF@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> <20070601114603.Y47933@shell.lmi.net> <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9CF@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > I know what you mean ... about a year ago I searched for a program > running on a PC, but could execute 68000 code, preferably free :-) MAME and MESS have 68000 engines, but you are on your own for building up enough virtual I/O to be able to communicate with your code. You could always extract the CPU engine from the codebase and tack on some sort of ICE-like interface. Don't know of any out-of-the-box generic 68K emulators for PCs. If I had to test-run 68000 code, I'd consider a Palm emulator, or an Amiga emulator or a Classic Mac emulator - whatever environment seemed to make the most sense. If I had a serious bit of code hacking to do, I'd consider doing it on a real Amiga, since I have lots and lots of experience on it. YMMV. -ethan From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:07:11 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:07:11 -0500 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730706011507p68f198c7w44710206624d5b83@mail.gmail.com> On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: > I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased > some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not > include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still > needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says > it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? > Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? I'm not aware of any SGI hobbyist program, but I've also not installed any version of IRIX that asked for a license key, either. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 16:57:44 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:57:44 -0500 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com>, <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46609658.10305@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jun 2007 at 14:51, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Surely it's as much effort whether circuits repeat or not? Don't you still >> have to check all possible interconnects to make sure that you've got >> everything traced right, even if a quick visual inspection might make it >> appear that there's a lot of repetition? > > So, you're saying that it's easier deciphering a PCB with a couple of > 544-conductor house-numbered BGAs on it than working through a PCB > with 1000 discretes? No - I'm saying that surely a 1000 transistor board with circuits that repeat is no more or less difficult than a 1000 transistor board where nothing repeats; the level of effort required is largely the same as it's tracing the interconnects which takes the bulk of the time, and that's got to be done fully for both boards to guarantee an accurate schematic. (All of which probably means that the number of PCB layers is irrelevant too - the critical thing is the number of solder points) I'm not disputing that doing a 1000 transistor board is easier than something with BGAs on it... :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 17:04:52 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:04:52 -0500 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased > some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not > include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still > needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says > it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? > Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? I believe it "merely" means that it would be illegal to install IRIX on any hardware if you don't possess a valid licence key for it; I don't think any of the IRIX OS releases are locked in any way and *need* some sort of key to function. I do recall feeding keys into the OS (6.5.3) for certain high-end video software many years ago though, so certainly some *apps* are crippled without appropriate licences (how easy it would be to circumvent that, I don't know) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jun 1 17:20:45 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, Richard wrote: > I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased > some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not > include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still > needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says > it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? > Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? By having a computer that runs Irix, SGI presumes you have the right to install and run it. The licenses part comes from the fact that some components are not included in this deal, though they are present on the install media. For a barebones Irix system, this is typically the MIPSpro development suite. The license key is a hash that may or may not be tied to a particular machine and may or may not expire. The key is served up by a daemon that handles multiple keys for assorted software you might have installed. For example: one key for the GIS viewer, one for the rock layer simulator, one for the seismology package, one for the math package, one for the database, etc. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jun 1 17:27:10 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 1 Jun 2007 15:27:10 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <1180736830.46609d3e8c55f@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Gordon JC Pearce : > I saw a TV programme about this a couple of years ago - seems that > someone investigating the Hindenburg explosion had turned up a book of > fabric samples painted with various dopes and exposed to large electric > sparks. > > Most had small holes from about the size of a pin prick up to ones > resembling a fag burn in a car seat. Then they turned to the page with > the fabric and dope used on the Hindenburg - it was almost completely > burnt away! I don't speak (or read) much German but I can recognise > text that says "DO NOT USE THIS STUFF WHATEVER ELSE YOU DO!", but it > seems that they *did* use it... > > Gordon Mythbusters did the hindenburg experiment on one of their shows last season (i think it was) and they did get some thermite reaction from the standard mix, but to get a full reaction they had to paint the model of the 'berg with a mix that had so much aluminum in it that the 'burg wouldn't have been able to get off the ground. From james.rice at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:23:47 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:23:47 -0500 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706011507p68f198c7w44710206624d5b83@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730706011507p68f198c7w44710206624d5b83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Jason T wrote: > > On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: > > I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased > > some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not > > include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still > > needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says > > it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? > > Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? > > I'm not aware of any SGI hobbyist program, but I've also not installed > any version of IRIX that asked for a license key, either. > There is no hobbyist program but Sgi turns a blind eye to hobbyist's use of Irix for non-commercial uses. There is no license key needed to install and the m-stream updates for 6.5 to 6.5.23 are available for download at sgi.com with a free Supportfolio account. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 17:20:59 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:20:59 -0500 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> <20070601114603.Y47933@shell.lmi.net> <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9CF@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <46609BCB.3050404@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/1/07, Gooijen, Henk wrote: >> I know what you mean ... about a year ago I searched for a program >> running on a PC, but could execute 68000 code, preferably free :-) > > MAME and MESS have 68000 engines, but you are on your own for building > up enough virtual I/O to be able to communicate with your code. You > could always extract the CPU engine from the codebase and tack on some > sort of ICE-like interface. > > Don't know of any out-of-the-box generic 68K emulators for PCs. This page looks quite promising: http://linux.cis.monroeccc.edu/~paulrsm I thought I had a 68k emulator for DOS years ago, but can't find it now (but nor can I find any of my other DOS-era emulators, which means I've stuffed them on tape somewhere and buried them deep in storage :-) I've never heard of the 68301 before, but a few pages found via google suggest it runs standard 68K code. From james.rice at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:38:46 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:38:46 -0500 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Richard wrote: > > I've not installed IRIX from scratch before. I recently purchased > > some install media from ebay and the item description said "does not > > include licenses". Is this boiler plate disclaimer, or am I still > > needing something else to install the OS? Another item on ebay says > > it *does* include licenses. Is there some sort of license key? > > Does SGI have a hobbyist/deprecated-ware license available? > > I believe it "merely" means that it would be illegal to install IRIX on > any > hardware if you don't possess a valid licence key for it; I don't think > any of > the IRIX OS releases are locked in any way and *need* some sort of key to > function. > > I do recall feeding keys into the OS (6.5.3) for certain high-end video > software many years ago though, so certainly some *apps* are crippled > without > appropriate licences (how easy it would be to circumvent that, I don't > know) Sgi's position on Irix as explained by a sales droid in the Dallas office was: "Sgi hardware has an implicit license to run the release of Irix installed on the machine at the time it's support contract expires. The unspoken position of the company is you can run any version of the software that you can find media to install if from. We will sell you a copy of the media for $600 but you must purchase a support contract first. But I can't sell you a support contract for your Indy as it has been declared obsolete and EOL. So you are caugfht in a Catch-22. I can't officially tell you to go to eBay and look for a set of media but that is probably the best source at this time." This was in 2001 when I purchased my first Indy. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 1 17:36:40 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:36:40 -0500 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601173344.0746f438@mail> At 05:04 PM 6/1/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >I do recall feeding keys into the OS (6.5.3) for certain high-end video software many years ago though, so certainly some *apps* are crippled without appropriate licences (how easy it would be to circumvent that, I don't know) I unloaded a bunch of IRIX-related CDs on eBay a half-dozen years ago. They sold well. Maybe media was in short supply back then. Each SGI does have a unique serial number that can be queried from software, so some third-party packages did handshake an installation key. IRIX doesn't do it, as far as I remember. You might discover that some sold-separately SGI software might use it, though. By now, I imagine it's well-hacked. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 17:53:41 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:53:41 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <1180736830.46609d3e8c55f@secure.zipcon.net> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <465F19B9.5050702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1180690752.11571.13.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <1180736830.46609d3e8c55f@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <4660A375.60506@jetnet.ab.ca> Geoff Reed wrote: > Mythbusters did the hindenburg experiment on one of their shows last season (i > think it was) and they did get some thermite reaction from the standard mix, but > to get a full reaction they had to paint the model of the 'berg with a mix that > had so much aluminum in it that the 'burg wouldn't have been able to get off the > ground. But the one of the arguments from the news reels was the bright flames. Hydrogen + Oxygen does give a flame you can see. Also once you got your hole burning then does the hydrogen kick in. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jun 1 18:03:20 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070601173344.0746f438@mail> References: <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20070601173344.0746f438@mail> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, John Foust wrote: > At 05:04 PM 6/1/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > >I do recall feeding keys into the OS (6.5.3) for certain high-end video software many years ago though, so certainly some *apps* are crippled without appropriate licences (how easy it would be to circumvent that, I don't know) > > I unloaded a bunch of IRIX-related CDs on eBay a half-dozen years ago. > They sold well. Maybe media was in short supply back then. > > Each SGI does have a unique serial number that can be queried > from software, so some third-party packages did handshake an > installation key. IRIX doesn't do it, as far as I remember. > You might discover that some sold-separately SGI software > might use it, though. By now, I imagine it's well-hacked. MIPSpro (SGI's compilers) are the only things on the install CDs that use keys IIRC. One should be just fine installing gcc and friends from pkgsrc. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 18:20:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:20:07 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <4660A375.60506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <1180736830.46609d3e8c55f@secure.zipcon.net>, <4660A375.60506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46604737.21180.6F4803A@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 16:53, woodelf wrote: > But the one of the arguments from the news reels was the bright flames. > Hydrogen + Oxygen does give a flame you can see. Also once you got > your hole burning then does the hydrogen kick in. Maybe you can see a hydrogen flame because you've got vision into the UV. But a hydrogen flame is very difficult to see in normal illumination (and just about impossible under daylight conditions) for mere humans. See, for instance: http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/h2safety.html I remember from my misspent college summers working as an instrumentation tech at a steel mill that one needed a special detector to see a hydrogen flame. Those of us who worked at the hydrogen-generating plant were warned about this. Hydrogen in quantity is nasty stuff--we had to check our toolbelts, matches, cigarette lighters and any steel pocket contents at the gate, lest we would cuase a spark and ignite the stuff (the range of explosive mixtures of H2 and O2 is very wide). I learned how blunt a sparkproof screwdriver could get in no time at all. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 1 18:30:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:30:13 -0600 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <46604737.21180.6F4803A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <370206.31308.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <1180736830.46609d3e8c55f@secure.zipcon.net>, <4660A375.60506@jetnet.ab.ca> <46604737.21180.6F4803A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4660AC05.8080206@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > See, for instance: > > http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/h2safety.html > > I remember from my misspent college summers working as an > instrumentation tech at a steel mill that one needed a special > detector to see a hydrogen flame. Those of us who worked at the > hydrogen-generating plant were warned about this. Hydrogen in > quantity is nasty stuff--we had to check our toolbelts, matches, > cigarette lighters and any steel pocket contents at the gate, lest we > would cuase a spark and ignite the stuff (the range of explosive > mixtures of H2 and O2 is very wide). I learned how blunt a > sparkproof screwdriver could get in no time at all. Sigh ... I thought I typed *not* in their. > Cheers, > Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 18:35:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:35:20 -0600 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:04:52 -0500. <46609804.5050509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <46609804.5050509 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > I do recall feeding keys into the OS (6.5.3) for certain high-end video > software many years ago though, so certainly some *apps* are crippled without > appropriate licences (how easy it would be to circumvent that, I don't know) Yeah, I'm familiar with apps being license-locked. FlexLM was a common licensing scheme for that sort of thing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 1 18:36:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:36:30 -0600 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:20:45 -0700. Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > [...] For a barebones Irix system, this is typically the MIPSpro > development suite. Yes, this bundle did include development software. I guess people just use gcc these days and ignore the stuff that came from SGI? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 18:36:11 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:36:11 -0400 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. In-Reply-To: <001901c7a46b$e07e2d90$8b04010a@uatempname> References: <001901c7a46b$e07e2d90$8b04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <4660AD6B.6010309@gmail.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Sounds like a good idea. How do I do that? > > You configure the 4000-200 into a cluster (of one). > Then you tell it that it will have the VAX 4000-300 > as a LAVC cluster member. Then boot the VAX 4000-300 > into the cluster. Then proceed as I outlined > previously. And if you want to know how to do that, per se, RTFM at: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/os73_index.html Much of the v7.3 documentation there applies fairly well to older versions. Peace... Sridhar From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 1 18:42:50 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:42:50 -0500 Subject: usenet nostalgia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4660AEFA.7020903@oldskool.org> Mike Loewen wrote: > On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, Richard wrote: > >> Usenet had the same proportion of asshole users back then, just that >> they were fewer in absolute number because the size of the total users >> was less. I dealt with plenty of asshole users on usenet, even in >> 1988. > > And before that time, the BBS systems had pretty much the same types > of users. People write things from behind a screen which they would > never say to your face. All this is true, however back then you couldn't be a complete moron and yet still have the tech skills to get online to have these discussions. So while the debates were heated, you were generally talking to non-idiots just due to the nature of the discussion medium. That's mostly what I miss from the early to mid-1980s era of computing. The ratio of stone cold idiots online is orders of magnitude higher today than it was back then. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 1 18:46:00 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:46:00 -0500 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This is a fascinating, if somewhat qualitative, comparison of user > interface and functionality of a Mac Plus and an AMD dual core. > Presented without further commentary. > > http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins A bit skewed, to say the least. The AMD would have won if it were running a Mac Plus emulator, for example :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 1 18:53:55 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Byte magazines in SF for library or museum Message-ID: <20070601164715.B47933@shell.lmi.net> There are some Byte magazines available to a public access home: > I have a fairly complete series of Byte magazine issues from 1/78 > through 12/88 (missing seven issues) that I no longer have space for. I > am looking for a library or museum to provide them with a good home -- > someplace with public access. I can deliver them within the San > Francisco Bay Area. If interested, contact Harry Chesley at > chesley at acm.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 19:06:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:06:45 -0700 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff In-Reply-To: <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net>, <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46605225.4480.71F2F31@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 16:53, Alexandre Souza wrote: > I'm working into some 68301 (68000 for embbedded applications) > old-equipment stuff. I'm completely lost into everything, I cannot even > decompile/simulate the code on PC. Maybe some good and candid soul would > lend a hand at least to get me started? I need only to do a very small mod > into the program, but first need to understand how it works. One of the best tools that I know of to do this is IDA Pro. It'll graph and allow you to step and debug 68K code, in addition to disassembling it. The drawback is that it's expensive--about USD$500 for a single license. For a one-off, it's probably not worth the cost, but if you do this kind of thing for a living, it pays for itself very quickly. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 1 18:38:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 00:38:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <3afee7520705311814y3f7f564fh545841f1a2bda1aa@mail.gmail.com> from "Erik Klein" at May 31, 7 06:14:23 pm Message-ID: > As it turns out, you (and just about everyone else who chimed in) were > right - the repair was easy and nothing else in the PS was damaged. > > I found a power supply at my local junque place with the right cap and > used it to replace my blown one. The /// is back up and running fine. > It'll be off to its new owner shortly. See, it wasn;'t too bad, now was it? Hopefully next time you hav a fault you'll consider component level repair... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 19:33:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 20:33:02 -0400 Subject: Booting a Vax 11/750 In-Reply-To: <106559.53102.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <106559.53102.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/1/07, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, the consensus is that I really don't need that > RDM board in order to boot the Vax. I concur. > So, I'm going to > go ahead and see if I can boot something (anything) on > this machine. I figure I'll start with NetBSD, since > it's free and easy to get. Sure. > I have no disk controller. But I do have an M7454 TU80 > controller. Will this controller work with a normal > pertec tape drive, like a Cipher? Perhaps. I think I've gone the other way (hung a TU80 off of a 3rd party Qbus tape controller like a TC131), so I don't _think_ there's anything strange. Unfortunately, I don't think you'll see too much in the way of bootable 9-track tapes for the VAX. PDP-11s of the right era routinely installed from a bootable magtape, but not VAXen. Instead, they have some console medium (11/780 == RX01, 11/750 and 11/730 == TU58, VAX8600 == RL02, VAX 8200 == RX50...) The 11/750 is a bit off for the oldest types of VAXen in that it doesn't have a dedicated boot processor, but in other ways, it's typical of the 11/7xx line. > Since I have SCSI nine track drives, I can write a > tape from my PC (linux box) and then I can move the > tape over to the Vax. (hopefully). Once there, how do > I boot - is the boot device switch controlled by the > RDM, or something else? There's a switch on the front of your VAX with positions from A-D. Each position corresponds to a bipolar PROM socket on one of the CPU boards. Typically, your preferred boot ROM goes into A, and the one for TU58 goes into D. We had a DR boot (for our SI9900), a DU boot (UDA50) and a DD(?) boot for TU58. I don't recall there being a TS or TM boot for the 11/750, but you could dig around. I suppose you could enter any random bootstrap into Console ODT, but we never did that. The usual technique for booting a blank 11/750 with some OS was to start with the install kit, a stack of TU58s and magtapes. You boot the first TU58, then follow the directions to insert the remaining ones as required, to get into some standalone restore utility. At some point, it's all loaded, then activity turns to siphoning whatever tape drive onto whatever disk drive, then rebooting the disk to complete the install. The software is all different, but the technique was the same for Ultrix or VMS, back in the day. It's entirely possible that BSD has a different technique, but since we never had a boot ROM for tape drives, I don't think that's how we installed 4.0BSD when we were running it on our 11/750 (I personally only ever installed VMS and Ultrix). If you can't get a stack of TU58s with the right restore application on them, your next best bet is likely to be some flavor of TU58 emulator and images files from a modern machine. I don't think there's an easy way away from that except to pre-load a disk image external to the 11/750 then boot the 11/750 "in the middle" of the established install procedure. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 19:52:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:52:43 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> This is a fascinating, if somewhat qualitative, comparison of user >> interface and functionality of a Mac Plus and an AMD dual core. >> Presented without further commentary. >> >> http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins >> > > A bit skewed, to say the least. The AMD would have won if it were > running a Mac Plus emulator, for example :-) I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into MS-DOS 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? I tried to time it, but I couldn't. There was not enough time between the end of POST and when the C:\> prompt came up that I couldn't physically click the stopwatch fast enough. And that's *with* a whole load of crap running on startup, including QEMM. I'd guess maybe 1/5 second. And I am fairly certain that DOS is using only one of the CPU cores. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 20:16:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:16:27 -0700 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com>, <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org>, <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2007 at 20:52, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into MS-DOS > 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? There was a PS/2 with DOS-in-ROM. I wonder how fast that boots. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 1 20:17:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:17:08 -0700 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com>, <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org>, <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <466062A4.10046.75FA154@cclist.sydex.com> ...make that a PS/1. --Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 1 21:17:53 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 03:17:53 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info><11c909eb0706010225i2fccd17fyb0b784e349e5dc6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <021301c7a4bc$3a65b760$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Probably worth about $50 USD as untested spare parts. >Not worth the petrol to drag it home in my opinion. Has the thing actually even got any boards in it? It's a bit difficult to tell from those pictures. And he's got the nerve to charge 17.5% VAT on top as well...! TTFN - Pete. From lee at geekdot.com Fri Jun 1 21:18:05 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 04:18:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff Message-ID: <2665.82.71.40.17.1180750685.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> For running generic 68000 code on a PC you can't do much better than this .. http://www.monroeccc.edu/ckelly/EASy68K.htm Lee. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 1 21:34:11 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 03:34:11 +0100 Subject: DRAM camera sensor References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com><20070531155019.H32124@shell.lmi.net> <46607980.9010109@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <026001c7a4be$80c0d0d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > There was at least one UK computer magazine which carried such >a project too - unfortunately I can't remember which one, let >alone which year :-( I vaguely remember "Practical Electronics" (could have been "ETI", but I don't think so) carrying some sort of digital camera project around about 1980/81(ish), but I have a feeling it was based on a CCD sensor; IIRC the accompanying article mentioned being able to use expoded DRAMs as image sensors (the first time I became aware of this). TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 1 21:44:05 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 03:44:05 +0100 Subject: DRAM camera sensor References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com><20070531155019.H32124@shell.lmi.net><46607980.9010109@yahoo.co.uk> <026001c7a4be$80c0d0d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <027f01c7a4bf$e347a2a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Whoops! >....use expoded DRAMs.... I did of course mean "exposed". But then that conjures up images of a shifty looking DRAM, wearing a low wide brimmed hat and a dirty raingoat.... ROFL TTFN - Pete. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 1 22:00:03 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 23:00:03 -0400 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <021301c7a4bc$3a65b760$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info> <021301c7a4bc$3a65b760$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706012300.03786.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 01 June 2007 22:17, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > Probably worth about $50 USD as untested spare parts. > >Not worth the petrol to drag it home in my opinion. > > Has the thing actually even got any boards in it? It's a bit difficult > to tell from those pictures. Actually, it's easy to tell, you can see all of the boards in the machine (except for the backplanes, but it seems unlikely that they'd be missing if the boards arent). As far as I can tell from the crappy, low resolution pictures he's got, it probably isn't missing any boards. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 22:07:26 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 23:07:26 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com>, <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org>, <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4660DEEE.80602@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jun 2007 at 20:52, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>> I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into > MS-DOS >> 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? > > There was a PS/2 with DOS-in-ROM. I wonder how fast that boots. PS/1. I have one. My Athlon boots faster. Peace... Sridhar From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Jun 1 22:22:29 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 20:22:29 -0700 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? Message-ID: <47c287117c67417893972c2eefbe8226@valleyimplants.com> > MIPSpro (SGI's compilers) are the only things on the install CDs that > use > keys IIRC. One should be just fine installing gcc and friends from > pkgsrc. MIPSpro is not included in the default software library from SGI. What is included is the "IRIX Development Libraries" and "IRIX Development Foundations" which provide the headers, static libraries, and a few development tools (but not compilers). For IRIX 5.3, the full IDO (with C compiler) is downloadable from ftp.sgi.com, for IRIX 6.2 the IDF/IDL parts are on ftp.sgi.com (IRIX 6.2 did not ship with the development tools and headers as standard). Many versions of MIPSpro function as "nagware" and will still compile while you're waiting for your license from SGI, or developer program members get access to an account on a Origin running the latest MIPSpro compilers. No official hobbyist program, there just isn't any return in it for SGI (the MIPS-based IRISes were discontinued in December). From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 1 23:15:59 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 21:15:59 -0700 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:36 PM -0600 6/1/07, Richard wrote: >Yes, this bundle did include development software. I guess people >just use gcc these days and ignore the stuff that came from SGI? I think most people simply run whatever version of MIPSpro tools they can if at all possible. The SGI compilers are desirable. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 2 00:14:12 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 01:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <46609658.10305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com>, <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> <46609658.10305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200706020517.BAA26023@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > (All of which probably means that the number of PCB layers is > irrelevant too - the critical thing is the number of solder points) I dunno. I find single- and double-sided boards substantially easier than three- or more-layer boards, simply because there are no connections buried in the board and thus invisible; the only thing making it impossible to completely trace the circuit by eye is etch runs disappearing under components. (While this happens, it happens seldom enough, at least in my experience, to account for the ease I mention.) It also might be nothing more than that being single- or double-sided correlates positively with having low component density in the pc boards I've tried to trace. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 2 00:17:57 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 00:17:57 -0500 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4660FD85.1050703@oldskool.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I tried to time it, but I couldn't. There was not enough time between > the end of POST and when the C:\> prompt came up that I couldn't > physically click the stopwatch fast enough. And that's *with* a whole > load of crap running on startup, including QEMM. I'd guess maybe 1/5 > second. Aha! I call BS! I load QEMM on startup too, and it pauses for a good 2-3 seconds while it counts up 256MB of RAM. :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 2 00:18:50 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 00:18:50 -0500 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com>, <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org>, <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4660FDBA.30608@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jun 2007 at 20:52, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>> I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into > MS-DOS >> 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? > > There was a PS/2 with DOS-in-ROM. I wonder how fast that boots. Sure you aren't thinking of the Tandy TL series? Those has DOS in ROM. I don't know of any PS/2 with DOS in ROM. And yes, they boot hella fast -- about 1.5 seconds after you hit the reset button. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 00:45:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 01:45:34 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660FD85.1050703@oldskool.org> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> <4660FD85.1050703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <466103FE.70107@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I tried to time it, but I couldn't. There was not enough time between >> the end of POST and when the C:\> prompt came up that I couldn't >> physically click the stopwatch fast enough. And that's *with* a whole >> load of crap running on startup, including QEMM. I'd guess maybe 1/5 >> second. > > Aha! I call BS! I load QEMM on startup too, and it pauses for a good > 2-3 seconds while it counts up 256MB of RAM. > > :-) Hehehehe. Nope. Goes *zoink* all the way up in a split second. I couldn't have been more surprised. Was a big difference from the previous box I used to play DOS games on, a 150MHz Pentium with 32MB RAM. (Which is pretty fast with DOS too, incidentally. Its SoundBlaster AWE64 absolutely rocked the MIDI support in DOS games too.) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 00:47:00 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 01:47:00 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660FDBA.30608@oldskool.org> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com>, <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org>, <4660BF5B.90900@gmail.com> <4660627B.21781.75EFE34@cclist.sydex.com> <4660FDBA.30608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46610454.2080409@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 1 Jun 2007 at 20:52, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>>> I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into >> MS-DOS >>> 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? >> >> There was a PS/2 with DOS-in-ROM. I wonder how fast that boots. > > Sure you aren't thinking of the Tandy TL series? Those has DOS in ROM. > I don't know of any PS/2 with DOS in ROM. Like he and I both wrote earlier, it was actually a PS/1. If you want more information, I can head into the attic and dig up the machine to get you an IBM type-model number. The only problem with that machine is that the DOS (for obvious reasons) can't be upgraded. Peace... Sridhar From grant at stockly.com Sat Jun 2 00:56:28 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:56:28 -0800 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4660AFB8.10407@oldskool.org> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070601212154.02f71d08@pop.1and1.com> At 03:46 PM 6/1/2007, you wrote: >Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>This is a fascinating, if somewhat qualitative, comparison of user >>interface and functionality of a Mac Plus and an AMD dual core. >>Presented without further commentary. >>http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins > >A bit skewed, to say the least. The AMD would have won if it were running >a Mac Plus emulator, for example :-) It students today learned how to program by toggling switches, maybe we'd have more people writing tight and efficient code. : ) From james at machineroom.info Fri Jun 1 15:16:15 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:16:15 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! In-Reply-To: <4660798E.4030204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F7E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <4660798E.4030204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46607E8F.5020601@machineroom.info> woodelf wrote: > Rod Smallwood wrote: >> "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." >> "Long time passing" >> "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." >> "Long time ago..." " To the scrap man ... Every one... " >> >> "Where have all the power supplies gone etc. etc." > > Chuckle ... I have Bod Dylan on the CD ... so by luck I had the > music to go with lyrics. :) > :-) I've messaged the seller in case it doesn't sell that I'm sure someone here would be happy to take it instead of sending to the scrapper. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jun 1 15:26:57 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 21:26:57 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F83@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> There's so little of it left, mores the pity. I wonder if the guy was sold it as a rare item (which it is) without being told a lot of it was missing. Rod Smallwood The DecCollector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: 01 June 2007 20:55 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! Rod Smallwood wrote: > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > "Long time passing" > "Where have all the disk drives gone? ..." > "Long time ago..." > " To the scrap man ... Every one... " > > "Where have all the power supplies gone etc. etc." Chuckle ... I have Bod Dylan on the CD ... so by luck I had the music to go with lyrics. :) From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:01:15 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 18:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 May 2007, Tony Duell wrote: >> Wasn't there a similar issue with the hard drive low-level formatter, in that >> it was never released by Apple - so you couldn't take a Lisa ProFile and >> format it for a ///, and nor could you do drive replacement in the field - >> instead the whole faulty unit presumably got sent back to Apple for repair. > > Wasn't there one drive -- and I think it was an Apple -- where you had to > temprorially replace a microcontroller chip to be able to do a low-level > format? And of course that specially-programemd microcontrolller was > never avaialble to normal customers. Yes, that would be the ProFile hard disk unit. You swap in a "piggyback" Z8 MPU with special EPROM for the masked-ROM version and have at it with a special tool suite on the Apple ///. I have resurrected several dead units by using the HDA assembly from a vanilla Seagate ST-506 (I think that's the one - from memory) with the proprietary Apple electronics. Unfortunately, the collection of software I was able to get my hands on was missing the 10MB format utility so I've never been able to get a 10M ProFile fixed. If anyone has a line on this, please contact me privately? Ditto if you need the hex image or the diagnostic software. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:07:38 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 18:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <20070531111859.E32124@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 May 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/31/07, Fred Cisin wrote: >> The major advantage of Aztec (Manx) C was to be able to run essentially >> the same compiler on multiple microcomputer platforms. That was >> especially useful, since before "ANSI C", there were lots of "minor" >> variations from one K&R C to another.... I AM NOT asking what >> "should be", I'm talking about comparing what compiler authors thought. > > One that varies from platform to platform: > > What does "char *p = NULL; return(strlen(p));" do? > > On some machines, it returns 0. On others, it segfaults because you > asked it to dereference a null pointer. Both are "correct" behavior > because the official behavior is "undefined". > > Ran into that one when someone tried to port some code from an NCR box > to a Sun box (yes, 10 years ago ;-) It worked "fine" on the NCR box, > but when it "broke" on the Sun, some of the NCR guys tried to claim it > was proof that NCRs were better than Suns (what, because it won't let > you slide by when you depend on undefined behavior behaving in a > particular way?) I don't actually think the C standard specifies a behavior for this. I can also tell you that even nowadays AIX will cheerfully permit you to dereference a null pointer. Steve -- From bear at typewritten.org Sat Jun 2 01:56:46 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 23:56:46 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200706011024.l51AOwHq021589@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 31, 7 04:24:49 pm" <200706011024.l51AOwHq021589@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <05326FBB-2135-4473-86E8-4CEB7B0070AF@typewritten.org> On Jun 1, 2007, at 4:22 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Btw, technically, according to the standard, the compiler is > free to say: > N = 1 > Humm... undefined behaviour... > A[500] = 9999 > N = -1 > Although I've never seen an implementation which actually > does this - usually you can fine some logical reason for the > results. I think this is what's traditionally meant by "nose demons." ok bear From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 02:12:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 03:12:25 -0400 Subject: Looking for Hardware Message-ID: <46611859.8060607@gmail.com> Please let me know if you have this hardware you wouldn't mind letting go for a small sum of money, or if you know where I might be able to find any of this hardware cheap. Thanks. IBM XT-286 Motherboard (I have a dead one that needs replacing) Kingston SX Now! 386 upgrade (For my beloved PS/2 Mod 50) Any AT-class memory boards (including EMS ones, obviously XMS preferred) Again, thanks. Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 2 02:27:52 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 00:27:52 -0700 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) References: Message-ID: <46611BEF.82210D41@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > "Ethan Dicks" writes: > > TCP/IP took a while to trickle down from > > Workstations to Micros. > > Agreed. I think it was the web browser that pushed the adoption and > integration of TCP/IP. Although chronologically they're pretty close, I'd say it was the opening of the internet to general public access circa 1989/90 that pushed such adoption (the final battle in the protocol wars). At that point TCP/IP became mandatory to connect to the "information highway" (remember that quaint phrase?), any system that didn't provide TCP/IP wasn't going to receive much attention, and all those competing/proprietary protocols (DECNET,SNA,OSI,etc.) became superfluous (specialised capabilities notwithstanding). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 2 02:29:13 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 00:29:13 -0700 Subject: discrete-component reverse engineering / was Re: Apple /// Power Supply References: <465DDB41.27073.484341F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <465F2CA1.764.2A4A512@cclist.sydex.com>, <466078C0.2010504@yahoo.co.uk> <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> <46609658.10305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46611C40.19FEECFB@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 1 Jun 2007 at 14:51, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > >> Surely it's as much effort whether circuits repeat or not? Don't you still > >> have to check all possible interconnects to make sure that you've got > >> everything traced right, even if a quick visual inspection might make it > >> appear that there's a lot of repetition? > > > > So, you're saying that it's easier deciphering a PCB with a couple of > > 544-conductor house-numbered BGAs on it than working through a PCB > > with 1000 discretes? > > No - I'm saying that surely a 1000 transistor board with circuits that repeat > is no more or less difficult than a 1000 transistor board where nothing > repeats; the level of effort required is largely the same as it's tracing the > interconnects which takes the bulk of the time, and that's got to be done > fully for both boards to guarantee an accurate schematic. (All of which > probably means that the number of PCB layers is irrelevant too - the critical > thing is the number of solder points) I'd have to say (based on experience) the repetition helps very much in reducing the work effort. Once you have figured out the repeating patterns (i.e. the standard gate construction, flip-flop construction, etc.), you can in large measure stop drawing at the discrete level and draw at the gate level. You still want to check all the internal connections within that gate/repeating pattern for something oddball, so yes, you are right that you do have to go through all the connections, but you don't have to draw it all out. You do a visual confirmation that the gate/whatever conforms to the repeating pattern and then spend your time tracing and drawing the gate/whatever input and output circuits. .. One can also think of it in terms of information content: the info content of 1000 elements arrayed with a repeating pattern is less than that of a purely random array of 1000 elements, and once you can do the compression processing (recognising the patterns) in your head, communicating it over the low speed link (drawing it on paper) takes less time. :) I actually like RE'ing discrete-component digital logic precisely to find out what the repeating patterns are (i.e. how the designers chose to implement gates and flop-flops (in the discrete days there were other flip-flop variations besides JK,SR and D)). Even with analog circuits a lot of design characteristics standard to the system cn become recognisable and make things easier. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jun 2 03:56:12 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 10:56:12 +0200 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F79@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <20070602105612.444c9048@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Thu, 31 May 2007 09:48:08 +0100 "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > These things are not that big but weigh a ton!! The guy selling it was > lot larger than I (thank heavans!) > I did not know the suspension in may car went that low! > There it sat until Tuesday evening when my son (6'4" & 210pounds) > who's a trained weight lifter helped me ge it out of the car and onto > its wheels. Remove the PSU, the disk / tape drives and probably the metal covers from the QBus slots. Nearly halfs the weight. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 2 06:05:13 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 06:05:13 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe/gs/ older-Macs available in Fargo ND Message-ID: <200706021008.l52A8D5U003063@hosting.monisys.ca> I've been contacted by a lady in Fargo ND which an Apple IIe, IIgs and some older Macs. Also mentions printers, accessories, software and magazines all pertaining to Apple. She mentioned "a least pay cost of shipping", so I don't think she is looking to get anything for them. If anyone wants to give them a home, please contact me and I'll forward her email. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From darin.lory at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 06:05:22 2007 From: darin.lory at gmail.com (Darin Lory) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:05:22 -0400 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <200706020039.l520cmsg081055@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706020039.l520cmsg081055@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <2790DEF6-6C95-4C89-896F-B51CB7E99C0A@gmail.com> Richard, As most of group have mentioned that you need a support contract or purchase the MIPSpro compilers (C, C++, F77, F90, Auto- parallelization, GNAT Pro ADA 95) specifically for your host which you intend to run on. The FlexLM license file is in /var/flexlm/ license.dat. You might want to check your IRIX workstation or server you are doing your IRIX install on, and see if you already have any licenses in this file. You might be surprised if your SGI might have previously been licensed. You can print out or copy this file for safe keeping. Upgrading within IRIX 6.5.x will not modify this file. You will need to contact your local sales office (http://www.sgi.com/ sales/ ) or call SGI at (800) 800-7441 or (650) 960-1980 if you need a license. You will probably need a quote for a 2CPU license (even if you are running on a 1 CPU workstation). Depending on the version of IRIX, it did place some freebie licenses in there. They also used to produce a "HotMix" CD with all the sample or open license software. I believe I still have a lot of these HotMix CDs from IRIX 5.3, 6.2, 6.3, 6.4. I would suggest that you setup a free Supportfolio account and see what you have access to. https://support.sgi.com/login SGI will give you a 30 or 90 EVALUATION license for any software, so you can try out the MIPSpro compilers and see if you want to go for the cost of the software http://www.sgi.com/support/licensing/ . The MIPSpro compilers really take advantage of the SGI architecture and IRIX, more so than GNU software. But depending on what you need, GNU compilers might be fine for what you are doing. Some of the Development tools (http://www.sgi.com/developers/ technology/irix/tools.html more info) you can download and may get a PERMANENT license for ANY host (HOSTID=ANY in license.dat). You can download most of the available software (except compilers) at http://www.sgi.com/products/evaluation/ It will note what type of license (like FREE or no license needed). Most of the stuff that might interest you are things like Cosmo Player, Open Office, Message Passing Toolkit 1.9 and Parallel Virtual Machine-PVM (I have PDF version of non-copyright books on PVM and MPI if you need them), Java (1.4.1_06 which is NOT DST compliant without a patch that they created from a bug report I placed, but should be available from Supportfolio). If you don't want to purchase the MIPSpro compilers, the GNU compilers are available. All Freeware software is at http:// freeware.sgi.com/ and all the manuals/books are at Techpubs in HTML and PDF format http://techpubs.sgi.com . C++ coding standard for IRIX and GNU C++ are at http://www.sgi.com/tech/mlc/docs/cc-coding.ps I suggest if you can get it, to install IRIX 6.5.22 or later. IRIX 6.5.30 is the latest. You can then install the DST (Daylight Savings Time) patch for IRIX 6.5.22 to 6.5.30 (new patch for 6.5.30). IRIX 6.5.2f to 6.5.21f (f for Feature set, m for maintenance) require you to download a new tzdata file (from tp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/), modify /etc/TIMEZONE, and run the zic compiler for your locale. I can email you or provide you all this information if you need it. I also wrote TONS of documentation for work on installing IRIX, startup/shutdown procedures, backup procedures and I can send that to you also. I have expertise on IRIX 4.0, 5.3, 6.2,6.3,6.4 and 6.5.x on all kinds of MIPS and SGI hardware from MIPS workstations, SGI Personal IRIS, Indys, Indigos, O2s, Octanes, Crimsons, and Origin servers (200, 300, 3800). But I only have Indys, O2s, Octanes, Origin servers, and maybe an Indigo Impact for me to use. Most of everything else was upgraded or replaced. Let me know if you need anything. I'd be happy to help you out. -Darin From darin.lory at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 06:20:58 2007 From: darin.lory at gmail.com (Darin Lory) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:20:58 -0400 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <2790DEF6-6C95-4C89-896F-B51CB7E99C0A@gmail.com> References: <200706020039.l520cmsg081055@dewey.classiccmp.org> <2790DEF6-6C95-4C89-896F-B51CB7E99C0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52199A8B-8903-4276-9121-E1E3974257AC@gmail.com> Richard, Tom G. Christiansen has compiled most of the freeware (even GNU C 4.2.0) for IRIX 5.3 and IRIX 6.2 if you are going to use those versions of IRIX. Check it out at http://www.jupiterrise.com/tgcware/ -Darin From dasbooterror at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 07:19:04 2007 From: dasbooterror at gmail.com (Joshua Benedetto) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:19:04 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) Message-ID: <21e211710706020519i587d05d9u18d3d624dd813f70@mail.gmail.com> As it goes, having actually run the gold scrapping grunt work (Read: Play with the Aqua regia) The reason you don't melt gold like that is the sheer amount of energy you have to waste to do it! Not to mention contaminating your final gold product with whatever crap is in the batch. As other people mentioned you can use mercury or cyanide agents, but good luck getting ether of those agents in any quantity, much less an EPA permit to use them for gold refining. Aqua Regia is bad enough, as you need to neutralize it before disposal. As it should be noted we refined chips, leads and anything gold plated Our usual contaminates were tin, lead, platinum, silver and iridium. ( Note: Using your left over Nitric Acid to make RDX does *NOT* count as disposal; However its a lot of fun) From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Jun 2 07:36:05 2007 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:36:05 -0500 Subject: HELP NEEDED - moving DEC PDP-8/A from Ottawa, Canada to VCF East (New Jersey) Message-ID: <000001c7a512$980f91a0$0401ffac@obie> Is anyone driving from or through Ottawa on the way to VCF East next weekend? I have an 8/A to pick up in Ottawa and will be at VCF. If you can provide help moving the (not small) system from Ottawa to New Jersey, I will be happy to pay $200 toward your gas expenses. An alternative might be someone traveling through Ottawa who could move it to Toronto or London (Canada!)in the near future, but the machine must be picked up in the next week or so. I'm on the digest version of classiccmp, so please feel free to contact me directly or call. TIA, Jack jack/dot/rubin/at/ameritech/dot/net 847.424.7320 work No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007 11:22 AM From JeLynch at stny.rr.com Sat Jun 2 09:01:54 2007 From: JeLynch at stny.rr.com (Jim Lynch) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:01:54 -0400 Subject: DRAM camera sensor In-Reply-To: <026001c7a4be$80c0d0d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> <20070531155019.H32124@shell.lmi.net> <46607980.9010109@yahoo.co.uk> <026001c7a4be$80c0d0d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706021401.l52E1x5L009507@ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com> Phase I (simple B&W): I used a Z-100 computer with a TI 256K DRAM (512 x 512). The video chip in the z-100 could be configured for 640 x 512 and the DRAM imager replaced one DRAM chip (ES) and was on a 1 foot tender (which is about the functional limit). Using a simple assembly code to read the DRAM transform the logic address to physical topology. Phase II (gray scale): more complex, used a memory board and replaced DRAM to a DRAM on tender. Programmed the DRAM controller for various refresh rates (soak time). Of course the other "bits" on the memory board were rendered useless. TI (and others) would publish a memory map to help with the topology decoding. Of course it did not directly address redundant bit lines. At 10:34 PM 6/1/2007, you wrote: >Hi, > > > There was at least one UK computer magazine which carried such > >a project too - unfortunately I can't remember which one, let > >alone which year :-( > >I vaguely remember "Practical Electronics" (could have been "ETI", >but I don't think so) carrying some sort of digital camera project >around about 1980/81(ish), but I have a feeling it was based on a >CCD sensor; IIRC the accompanying article mentioned being able to >use expoded DRAMs as image sensors (the first time I became aware of this). > > > TTFN - Pete. From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 2 09:26:01 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:26:01 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I noticed a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to make this since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I based this design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 days. It's made by Electronic Control Technology. Here's a link to the picture http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg There were several different styles made before--each with their own advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates 2 voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of solder pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the arrangement of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, grid, etc. If I get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. It's not much work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to include 2 pcb designs at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of S-100 designs. In the future, I like to setup a bigger panel to include several more S-100 designs. Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and intend to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is interested, with enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. please send any feedback. =Dan Roganti -- [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 10:21:25 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <46608CE0.4050603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <141896.85575.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Alexandre Souza wrote: > >>> I light thermite with glycerine + potassium > permanganate. > > > > How? > > Mix them. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80Q3GgeeIVM > > Peace... Sridhar I've heard of that also in my travels, but in the video it doesn't look like all of the thermit compound ignited. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 10:50:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <141896.85575.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <122245.53961.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> couldn't resist... http://www.guzer.com/videos/thermite_car.php just cuz it was French. LOL LOL and http://www.guzer.com/videos/thermite_ice.php were those simply flower pots or crucibles? Why didn't they just pour a pile of thermite on top of the hood? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 2 08:13:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:13:50 -0400 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? Message-ID: <0JJ000C83FELEH0H@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hazeltine 1400 info? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:27:23 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 31 May 2007 at 18:19, Allison wrote: > >> The 1400 series was after the 1500 series and was effectively a cost >> reduced (cheaper to build and sell) terminal. The 1400 was circa >> 1976-78 or so. > >Am I the only one who actually used one of these and hated it? I had >one hooked to an MDS800 development system. For the time, they were >inexpensive, but there were better terminals around--and the use of a >displayable character (tilde) as the escape code leadin made things >more trouble than the terminals were worth. I think I may even have >the code for a full-screen editor written in PL/M somewhere. I was working for Hazeltine terminals group at the time, one look at the 1400s and I left. There were a few things about it that suggested with better firmware it could be nice but didn't happen. My experience lead to buying a H19, a decent tube that I still have. Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 2 08:25:36 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:25:36 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F86@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well I tried it. The two systems were connected together with 50Ohm co-ax and terminators at both ends. I hooked in a hub that had a BNC connector to monitor what was going on. After running @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN on the -200 it became a boot server and I did a BOOT EZA0: on the -300. Both systems were talking to the network but ignored each other. On the console of the -300 it just printed 'Retrying Network Boot' for ever. Hardly a surprise wth no DecNet or TCP/IP running. Oh well back to trying to create a bootable tape and put MOP on my list of fables and fairy stories. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org Sent: 01 June 2007 17:43 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Rod Smallwood wrote: > Sounds like a good idea. How do I do that? You configure the 4000-200 into a cluster (of one). Then you tell it that it will have the VAX 4000-300 as a LAVC cluster member. Then boot the VAX 4000-300 into the cluster. Then proceed as I outlined previously. Antonio From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 2 08:31:53 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:31:53 +0100 Subject: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F87@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well I tried it. The two systems were connected together with 50Ohm co-ax and terminators at both ends. I hooked in a hub that had a BNC connector to monitor what was going on. After running @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN on the -200 it became a boot server and I did a BOOT EZA0: on the -300. Both systems were talking to the network but ignored each other. On the console of the -300 it just printed 'Retrying Network Boot' for ever. Hardly a surprise wth no DecNet or TCP/IP running. Oh well back to trying to create a bootable tape and put MOP on my list of fables and fairy stories. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: 02 June 2007 00:36 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Bringing the VAX 4000-300 back to life. arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Sounds like a good idea. How do I do that? > > You configure the 4000-200 into a cluster (of one). > Then you tell it that it will have the VAX 4000-300 as a LAVC cluster > member. Then boot the VAX 4000-300 into the cluster. Then proceed as I > outlined previously. And if you want to know how to do that, per se, RTFM at: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/os73_index.html Much of the v7.3 documentation there applies fairly well to older versions. Peace... Sridhar From dgreelish at mac.com Sat Jun 2 11:31:10 2007 From: dgreelish at mac.com (David Greelish) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 12:31:10 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <200706021224.l52CNevM090657@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706021224.l52CNevM090657@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com> Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:52:43 -0400 > From: Sridhar Ayengar > > Jim Leonard wrote: >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> This is a fascinating, if somewhat qualitative, comparison of user >>> interface and functionality of a Mac Plus and an AMD dual core. >>> Presented without further commentary. >>> >>> http://hubpages.com/hub/ >>> _86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins >>> >> >> A bit skewed, to say the least. The AMD would have won if it were >> running a Mac Plus emulator, for example :-) This is very interesting, and I'm sure true, but they're comparing the modern system as a modern system to the older one. The article makes a good point in regard to performing these basic office app tasks. > I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into > MS-DOS > 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on > that? The only thing is, in DOS, it won't function as a true GUI with true GUI apps, so the comparison is moot. How about GeoWorks Ensemble? How about Windows XP on a system with no additional "stuff" loaded, like anti-virus, etc. It's an interesting article, but just how optimized was this system for just office apps. Obviously the Mac Plus didn't go online, etc., but I get the point, it was a standard system then, compared to a standard system now. Where's the productivity advantage? Best, David David Greelish classiccomputing.com The Classic Computing Podcast Home of Computer History Nostalgia Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Jun 2 11:59:21 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:59:21 -0400 Subject: WTD: LDOS 5.1.3 for Lobo Max 80, Manual (paper/electronic) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070602125350.01369ad0@mail.degnanco.net> Hi - I finally got a Lobo Max 80 to boot http://www.vintagecomputer.net/lobo/ I'd like a copy of the LDOS 5.1.3 manual so that I can review the options and parameters associated with the dos commands. Thanks in advance Bill Degnan From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 2 12:28:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 11:28:05 -0600 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:13:50 -0400. <0JJ000C83FELEH0H@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: In article <0JJ000C83FELEH0H at vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, Allison writes: > I was working for Hazeltine terminals group at the time, one look at the > 1400s and I left. There were a few things about it that suggested with > better firmware it could be nice but didn't happen. That makes me wonder if new firmware could be created now? What uP did it use to control the electronics? Its my first Hazeltine for my collection. And no, I don't expect I'll actually be sitting at it doing coding :-P. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 2 12:31:45 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 11:31:45 -0600 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070601212154.02f71d08@pop.1and1.com> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070601212154.02f71d08@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4661A981.7050507@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > It students today learned how to program by toggling switches, maybe > we'd have more people writing tight and efficient code. : ) Would the not be *light* and efficient code instead. In some ways the OPERATE operation was what made the older computers have good code density. With the demise of FORTRAN and the rise of C and PASCAL/ALGOL style languages you need more addressing modes like R+ and B+R+# adressing where you have only two addressing modes mostly Direct short and indirect. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 12:33:19 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:33:19 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <21e211710706020519i587d05d9u18d3d624dd813f70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: "Joshua Benedetto" > >As it goes, having actually run the gold scrapping grunt work (Read: >Play with the Aqua regia) >The reason you don't melt gold like that is the sheer amount of energy >you have to waste to do it! Not to mention contaminating your final >gold product with whatever crap is in the batch. Hi Joshua It seems like you are the person to ask. I did some calculations showing that one would need a large area of PC boards covered with gold to get to an ounce ( w/ typical plating ). About how much gold would you expect to recover in 100 lbs of average PC boards. My guess would put it in the 1/8 of an ounce or less. Surely not enough to pay $500 for a pile of boards. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 From richard.smith at mewgull.com Sat Jun 2 12:53:40 2007 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:53:40 +0100 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <4661A981.7050507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <200706011902.l51J2Y3o028506@floodgap.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070601212154.02f71d08@pop.1and1.com> <4661A981.7050507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070602175337.3D0E04EA3F@smtp.nildram.co.uk> At 18:31 02/06/2007, you wrote: >Grant Stockly wrote: > >>It students today learned how to program by toggling switches, >>maybe we'd have more people writing tight and efficient code. : ) > >Would the not be *light* and efficient code instead. In some ways >the OPERATE operation was what made the older computers have >good code density. >With the demise of FORTRAN and the rise of C and PASCAL/ALGOL >style languages you need more addressing modes like R+ and >B+R+# adressing where you have only two addressing modes mostly >Direct short and indirect. Forgive if this has been said before, but it's surely the availability of oodles of cheap memory that encourages sloppy coding? When I was ripping off Donkey Kong (the original one.......) we had about 32Kb of ROM to store the code, and a couple of k's RAM to handle things like sprites (remember them?). I used to program the Z80 in machine code, on paper, taking care of the number of clock cycles a particular instruction took and looking to see if the same could be achieved using another instruction with a couple less clock cycles. That encourages tight code. >C9 Richard From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 12:58:00 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:58:00 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Ethan Dicks" >> >On 6/1/07, Richard wrote: >> > For example, what would you expect from: >> > N = 1; >> > A[N++] = N++; >> >>On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. > >Out of a cannon, hopefully. Unfortunately, I've seen my share of >messes caused by tricks similar to this. Hi I have no idea what would actually be done but I'd expect A[2]=1. N would be 3. If this was what was intended, why would you fire them? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don?t miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/ From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jun 2 12:54:46 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 13:54:46 -0400 Subject: [more-or-less-offtopic]:68301 stuff In-Reply-To: Message from "Alexandre Souza" of "Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:53:07 -0300." <069d01c7a486$7c08c170$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <200706021755.l52HslgZ019265@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Alexandre Souza" wrote: > > Dear friends > > I'm working into some 68301 (68000 for embbedded applications) >old-equipment stuff. I'm completely lost into everything, I cannot even >decompile/simulate the code on PC. Maybe some good and candid soul would >lend a hand at least to get me started? I need only to do a very small mod >into the program, but first need to understand how it works. It depends on what you've got, but you might try finding a gcc cross compile toolchain, for say linux (or even cygwin) and then using the "objdump -D" program. You can get it to disassemble from an unformatted binary file... that is sometimes useful if all you have is roms. I think gdb has a 68k emulator, but if not there are many around to choose from. You should be able to quickly whip up something to sim the code once you've figured out the basic structure, i.e. where it boots form and where it expects ram, etc... just a thought. i'm big on simulation. There may be other tools for win32 I don't know about. I'm most comfortable with linux/unix & gcc. You can certainly build 68k code with gcc. I did it for years. -brad From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:16:15 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 11:16:15 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) Message-ID: >From: "Dave Dunfield" > > > > N = 1; > > > A[N++] = N++; > > > > I'd expect that to evaluate to a[1]=2 and n winds up being 3. But I'm >weird. > >This simple code snippet invokes "undefined behaviour" because: > > 'N' is modified twice within a single sequence block. > 'N' is referenced within a sequence block separately from a modification > occuring within the same sequence block. > >One might expect: > > N = 1 > Save address of A[1] > ++N > (address of A[1]) = 2 > ++N > >Which gives you the result you expected, however a compiler is free to >perform the side effects occuring within a sequence block at any time it >wishes, as long as it observes the charactistics of the operator causing >the side effect. (ie: one instance of N++ cannot increment N before >retrieving it's value, although the other instance of N++ could have >incremented it). > Hi Dave I'd expect it to evaluate the left side of the equation first before determining the address. A[2]=1. Any other order would not make sense. Algebraic equations do not read left to right. This causes a sense of ambiguity but shouldn't. Where it wouldn't be clear as to the result would be for the case: A = (5*N++) + (6*N++) But that only goes to show how poor this type of notation is for defining sequence of execution. This is why I still think RPN notation is much better for computer programming. This need not be a stack language like Forth. It is concise. Events happen left to right. No special rules. It isn't familar to what you learned in grade school but doesn't take long to grasp. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 2 13:17:35 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:17:35 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 May 2007 17:56, Rick Bensene wrote: > ?It has a DB-25 RS-232 connector apparently for hooking up to a computer, > ?but I don't know if it's wired as DTE or DCE. Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female connectors on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. I found mine through some surplus outfit years ago at about half the price, and find it invalualble for answering questions like this... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:30:23 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:30:23 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Need help identifying diode specs In-Reply-To: <200705301317.31225.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200705301317.31225.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > One site also listed the part number "5961-01-198-6175" > as an equivalent. This number is an FSN/NSN. Gummint surplus. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jun 2 13:32:00 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:32:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTD: LDOS 5.1.3 for Lobo Max 80, Manual (paper/electronic) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070602125350.01369ad0@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070602125350.01369ad0@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, B. Degnan wrote: > Hi - I finally got a Lobo Max 80 to boot > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/lobo/ > > I'd like a copy of the LDOS 5.1.3 manual so that I can review the options and > parameters associated with the dos commands. Does this help? http://www.tim-mann.org/trs80/doc/ld51man3.pdf He has other copies there, as well. http://www.tim-mann.org/misosys.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 2 13:24:17 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:24:17 -0400 Subject: schematics was Re: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <465F44E5.1080305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <808909.16084.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <20070531113151.U32124@shell.lmi.net> <465F44E5.1080305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200706021424.17824.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 May 2007 17:57, Jules Richardson wrote: > I can't imagine it'd be very readable at that sort of size if it included > all the 'extras' which turn a bare-bones system into a useful machine > (joking aside about how useful the XT ever was :-) Still having some quantity of XT-class hardware around, I've been wondering fot some time now what it might be useful for... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:37:47 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:37:47 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070529095403.06a4f5d0@mail> References: <51ea77730705282219k43ee45d0h392d0457260be363@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070529095403.06a4f5d0@mail> Message-ID: > I'm under-informed, but I'd guess that the largest amount is within > IC chips themselves, with the bond-out wires and other surfaces inside > that were plated. Nextmost would be card edges and headers. There is indeed often a large amount of gold on the leadframes and bond out wires. Even on many worthless looking plastic DIPs. About two years ago I had some scrap EMC memory boards for some sort of system, loaded with Oki 256K DRAMs. Plastic, boring looking DRAMs. If I flexed the board enough, the tops of the plastic DIP split and popped off the leadframes. Goooold......... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:45:39 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:45:39 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <369015.81428.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <683601.54477.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <369015.81428.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I'll venture a guess and say the vast majority of > people on this list are interested in the > collectible/nostalgic aspects of old hardware, not for > recycling. It IS important to know when we go toe to toe with the scrappers when goodies come up for auction. > How much old *scrap* is there left these days? Enough to keep the market going. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 2 14:05:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 13:05:26 -0600 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:58:00 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "dwight elvey" writes: > If this was what was intended, why would you fire them? Your question answers itself. Even *you* don't know what was intended. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 2 14:07:24 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:07:24 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com In-Reply-To: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> References: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200706021507.24928.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 01 June 2007 13:26, Al Kossow wrote: > and have made imagedisk images What do you do with those? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 2 14:21:34 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:21:34 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 10 format.com In-Reply-To: <200706021507.24928.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <466056C7.9030106@bitsavers.org> <200706021507.24928.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200706021521.34398.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 02 June 2007 15:07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 01 June 2007 13:26, Al Kossow wrote: > > and have made imagedisk images > > What do you do with those? Write them to a disk using imagedisk? Search the list archives for "imagedisk". Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 2 14:52:28 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:52:28 -0500 Subject: Amix was Re: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <46611BEF.82210D41@cs.ubc.ca> References: <46611BEF.82210D41@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4661CA7C.6030208@yahoo.co.uk> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Richard wrote: >> "Ethan Dicks" writes: >>> TCP/IP took a while to trickle down from >>> Workstations to Micros. >> Agreed. I think it was the web browser that pushed the adoption and >> integration of TCP/IP. > > Although chronologically they're pretty close, I'd say it was the opening of > the internet to general public access circa 1989/90 that pushed such adoption > (the final battle in the protocol wars). At that point TCP/IP became mandatory > to connect to the "information highway" (remember that quaint phrase?), any > system that didn't provide TCP/IP wasn't going to receive much attention, and > all those competing/proprietary protocols (DECNET,SNA,OSI,etc.) became > superfluous (specialised capabilities notwithstanding). I think I'd agree there - after all (at least in the UK) lots of home micros from 1980 onwards had the ability to network with each other, so users were reasonably familiar with what a network was (even if they didn't connect their machine *to* one; it was still a system selling point). It was only when public Internet access took off (early on for academia, probably not until the mid-90's for "home" use) that TCP/IP became the accepted norm. On the web front, all the web browser ever did was encourage the use of the wrong tool for the job ;-) From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 2 14:59:58 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:59:58 -0400 Subject: Apple IIe/gs/ older-Macs available in Fargo ND In-Reply-To: <200706021008.l52A8D5U003063@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706021008.l52A8D5U003063@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706021559.58394.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 June 2007 07:05, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I've been contacted by a lady in Fargo ND which an Apple IIe, IIgs > and some older Macs. Also mentions printers, accessories, software > and magazines all pertaining to Apple. She mentioned "a least pay > cost of shipping", so I don't think she is looking to get anything > for them. > > If anyone wants to give them a home, please contact me and I'll > forward her email. On that subject, I have a IIgs system complete, monitor, keyboard, printer, two sizes of floppy drive, etc. that I was given a while back and which I don't have much interest in or use for... Make me an offer? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 2 15:09:42 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:09:42 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> References: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200706021609.42751.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 June 2007 10:26, Dan wrote: > I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I noticed > a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to make this > since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I based this > design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 days. It's > made by Electronic Control Technology. > > Here's a link to the picture > http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg > > > There were several different styles made before--each with their own > advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical > pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates 2 > voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of solder > pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. > > I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the arrangement > of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, grid, etc. If I > get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. It's not much > work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to include 2 pcb designs > at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of S-100 designs. In the > future, I like to setup a bigger panel to include several more S-100 > designs. > > Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and > offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and intend > to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is interested, with > enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. Hmm, good question! I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and such? And the Imsai, here. Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I lack a few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. :-( I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a lot of sense. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 2 15:23:46 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:23:46 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: References: <683601.54477.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <369015.81428.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070602202346.C6B85BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "William Donzelli" wrote: > > How much old *scrap* is there left these days? > > Enough to keep the market going. In particular: I might normally think that because computers today are so much more powerful than 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago, that it would take much less hardware to implement the same functions. Thus I might expect that the raw quantities of computer scrap have been declining over the same time. I have been proven wrong almost every time. Sucky, but true. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 2 15:42:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 13:42:58 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> References: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <466173E2.17899.B8AF6F3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2007 at 10:26, Dan wrote: > > I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board... For whatever my tuppence will get you today, I'd like to submit that I'd prefer to see one regulator (+12, +5) at each corner, rather than both at the same corner--better heat dissipation. I'd also like to see a row of pads at the top for a 50-position ribbon cable connector or two. The orientation of the packages is fine. I'm assuming that the power traces are duplicated on the reverse side of the board also. I hope some of this makes some sense to others. Thanks, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 2 16:18:55 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070602141454.Y6937@shell.lmi.net> > >> > N = 1; > >> > A[N++] = N++; > >>On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I have no idea what would actually be done but I'd expect A[2]=1. > N would be 3. > If this was what was intended, why would you fire them? Because it is treacherous code. If that WAS what was intended, it will work. When you switch compilers, it will stop working, and waste a lot of time of a lot of people finding and isolating what went wrong. Meanwhile, the original author will be insisting that there is a bug in the new compiler. Dave did a thorough job of explaining that for various implementation related reasons, there are multiple VALID results from that code. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 2 16:33:17 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070602142012.J6937@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Dave > I'd expect it to evaluate the left side of the equation first before > determining the address. A[2]=1. Any other order would not make > sense. It would to some compiler authors. (who sometimes have a different reality than you and I do) > But that only goes to show how poor this type of notation is for > defining sequence of execution. This is why I still think RPN notation > is much better for computer programming. This need not be a stack > language like Forth. It is concise. Events happen left to right. No special > rules. It isn't familar to what you learned in grade school but doesn't > take long to grasp. Any completely defined language should produce the same results no matter what is fed to the compilers. But, what about Y = X/0 ? In a simple microcomputer implementation, howzbout N = 32767; /*or 2147483647 (as used in MS-DOS file and partition size)*/ N = N + 1; ? K&R was NOT a very rigid complete definition of the language. There were many parts subject to choice or interpretation by the compiler author. If you want to shoot yourself in the foot, C will provide you unlimited large caliber ammunition. Going back to the original post, . . . in addition to real problems with compilers (such as mishandling of scope), programmers will tend to claim bugs in the compiler whenever they encounter different results than from their "baby duck" compiler. Mine was FORTRAN, followed by APL, 1401 machine, 1401 SPS, BASIC, . . . (and a real programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language) Without meaning to offend you, I'm going to guess that you started with FORTH and then branched out. There does seem to be less potential for ambiguity in a RPN language that has one operation per instruction. (which is what makes machine language so fulfilling) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 2 16:34:34 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070602141454.Y6937@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jun 2, 7 02:18:55 pm" Message-ID: <200706022134.l52LYYBi027764@floodgap.com> > > >> > N = 1; > > >> > A[N++] = N++; > > >>On the other hand, I'd fire anyone who wrote something like the above. > > On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > I have no idea what would actually be done but I'd expect A[2]=1. > > N would be 3. > > If this was what was intended, why would you fire them? > > Because it is treacherous code. If that WAS what was intended, it will > work. When you switch compilers, it will stop working, and waste a lot > of time of a lot of people finding and isolating what went wrong. > Meanwhile, the original author will be insisting that there is a bug in > the new compiler. > > Dave did a thorough job of explaining that for various implementation > related reasons, there are multiple VALID results from that code. And I came up with a completely different interpretation than Dwight, so ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ---------------- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 16:43:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <20070602175337.3D0E04EA3F@smtp.nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: <623264.21236.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Smith wrote: > about 32Kb of ROM to store the code, and a couple of > k's RAM to > handle things like sprites (remember them?). Most people should. The Commie 64 had hardware sprites. The Apple 2s...I don't really know. Maybe with the addition of some krazee logic they did. Not as stock I don't think. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 2 16:57:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:57:40 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070602142012.J6937@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20070602142012.J6937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46618564.27488.BCF5A78@cclist.sydex.com> Always a good for a little headscratching to keep the gray matter twitching: http://www.gimpel.com/html/bugs.htm Cheers, Chuck From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 2 14:22:46 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 20:22:46 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi The abortive attempt to cluster the two Vaxes and copy data has left me much further back than when I started. The network and terminal server connections are gone because I can't start TCPWARE up. It complains about a license and and something called NETCU (What the hell is that?) and aborts the loading of TCPWARE. Lesson learned,= the boot from a cluster server idea is flawed and can damage an existing setup. Its probably one of those things everybody has heard about but never actually done. Back up did somebody say Back up.? The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite the fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting to do a backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected which it isn't. I'll try to sort that one out to-morrow. Rod From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sat Jun 2 15:33:36 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 16:33:36 -0400 Subject: Looking for Hardware References: <46611859.8060607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601c7a555$4bc8c300$6601a8c0@intel1gmmc> IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 50Z, I have a few Kingston SX and SLC Now for the 50Z (PLCC) I have one or two IBM 486SLC upgrades for the model 50 (PGA) Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "The Geeks List" Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 3:12 AM Subject: Looking for Hardware > > Please let me know if you have this hardware you wouldn't mind letting > go for a small sum of money, or if you know where I might be able to > find any of this hardware cheap. Thanks. > > IBM XT-286 Motherboard (I have a dead one that needs replacing) > Kingston SX Now! 386 upgrade (For my beloved PS/2 Mod 50) > Any AT-class memory boards (including EMS ones, obviously XMS preferred) > > Again, thanks. > > Peace... Sridhar > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 16:58:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linux on SGI Message-ID: <537061.49757.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Anyone running Linaches on SGI boxen? I imagine I could get tarred and feathered for stating such in certain mixed company, but even support for the R10000 has materialized. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 2 17:03:02 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 18:03:02 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Need help identifying diode specs In-Reply-To: References: <200705301317.31225.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200706021803.02689.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 02 June 2007 14:30, William Donzelli wrote: > > One site also listed the part number "5961-01-198-6175" > > as an equivalent. > > This number is an FSN/NSN. Gummint surplus. Yeah, I was guessing that. But is there any way to find out more info on the diode itself based on that? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 17:06:36 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SMC CRT controllers on eBay Message-ID: <197010.97490.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih= 003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item= 130118894499&rd=1&rd=1 No, these were not used in the Tandy 2000, but I guess they were used in something (some terminal perhaps?). Mayhap someone on the list knows. O why o why couldn't they have been 9007s or 9021s??? Why. O God... ___________________________________________________________________________________ You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jun 2 17:08:54 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:08:54 -0600 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4661EA76.6060906@e-bbes.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Back up did somebody say Back up.? > The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite the > fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting to do a > backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected which > it isn't. Make sure it isn't a TK50 you put in the TK70, or formatted as TK50. Probably switch the drives between the systems ? From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 2 17:13:56 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <623264.21236.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from Chris M at "Jun 2, 7 02:43:41 pm" Message-ID: <200706022213.l52MDugF020114@floodgap.com> > > about 32Kb of ROM to store the code, and a couple of > > k's RAM to > > handle things like sprites (remember them?). > > Most people should. The Commie 64 had hardware > sprites. The Apple 2s...I don't really know. Maybe > with the addition of some krazee logic they did. Not > as stock I don't think. They didn't. They had shape tables, but this was software-driven. I'm pretty sure there was a card that had a 9918A, and you could get sprites with that, but I don't recall it being very popular (typical software-hardware catch-22 situation). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. -- Beethoven ------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 2 17:15:31 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple IIe/gs/ older-Macs available in Fargo ND In-Reply-To: <200706021559.58394.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Jun 2, 7 03:59:58 pm" Message-ID: <200706022215.l52MFVv4020158@floodgap.com> > On that subject, I have a IIgs system complete, monitor, keyboard, > printer, two sizes of floppy drive, etc. that I was given a while back and > which I don't have much interest in or use for... Any cards in it? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct. -- classiccmp From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 17:15:50 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:15:50 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "William Donzelli" > >>I'm under-informed, but I'd guess that the largest amount is within >>IC chips themselves, with the bond-out wires and other surfaces inside >>that were plated. Nextmost would be card edges and headers. > >There is indeed often a large amount of gold on the leadframes and >bond out wires. Even on many worthless looking plastic DIPs. > >About two years ago I had some scrap EMC memory boards for some sort >of system, loaded with Oki 256K DRAMs. Plastic, boring looking DRAMs. >If I flexed the board enough, the tops of the plastic DIP split and >popped off the leadframes. Goooold......... > Hi Will I'm not saying there isn't gold, just how much gold. As I stated, typical plating is only 15 to 30 mils. For IC's I'd doubt they uses 30 mil. As for the leads, I once held a spool of gold bonding wire that had 1000 feet of wire on it. I'd suspect that the spool was heavier than the wire. The wire is quite small as well. Some IC's used gold wire and some used aluminum. Boards like the older HP boards had gold plated the traces but I wouldn't get real excited about 100 lbs of these boards. They'd be worth removing the gold but I doubt I'd come out with an oz of gold. 100 lbs of just plain boards would be even less. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 2 17:21:29 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 18:21:29 -0400 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706021821.29464.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 02 June 2007 15:22, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > The abortive attempt to cluster the two Vaxes and copy data has left > me much further back than when I started. > The network and terminal server connections are gone because I can't > start TCPWARE up. > It complains about a license and and something called NETCU (What the > hell is that?) and aborts the loading of TCPWARE. I've never used TCPWARE. On the other hand, it appears that NETCU is TCPware's "Network Control Utility": http://www2.process.com/tcpip/tcpware57docs/NETCU/Front.htm It's possible that if you clustered your VAX, you upset TCPware's licensing, and made it think that you had more than one system (or a different one) trying to run TCPware. > Lesson learned,= the boot from a cluster server idea is flawed and can > damage an existing setup. > Its probably one of those things everybody has heard about but never > actually done. I've done it plenty of times. I know other people on the list have done it plenty of times, and people that I work with have done it in the past. If you had actually had DECnet installed, it probably would have worked ok. LAVC's require DECnet to be installed, which the documentation should have stated. Why don't you get a copy of DECnet, install it, activate it using a hobbyist license key (you're an Encompass aka DECUS member, right? Associate memberships are free.), and try again. Perhaps instead of insulting people on this list, you should concentrate on figuring out what went wrong. > Back up did somebody say Back up.? > The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite the > fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting to do a > backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected > which it isn't. > > I'll try to sort that one out to-morrow. Do you know that the tape drive actually works? What are the LED indicators when you stick a tape in? Also, I believe that if you are putting media in that has been written to as a TK50, into a TK70 drive, the media will be marked "write protected". You'll need to degauss the media (with a *good* degausser, not a video/audio tape one) to get it to be writable in a TK70 drive. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 17:24:55 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 18:24:55 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <20070602202346.C6B85BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <683601.54477.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <369015.81428.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> <20070602202346.C6B85BA4437@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > I might normally think that because computers today are so much > more powerful than 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago, that it would take much > less hardware to implement the same functions. Thus I might > expect that the raw quantities of computer scrap have been > declining over the same time. Quantity up, quality down. Demand is also WAY up, due to the Chinese. -- Will From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 2 18:58:00 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 18:58:00 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070602142012.J6937@shell.lmi.net> References: Message-ID: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> > On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Dave Sorry - I haven't actually been following this thread ... I just happened across the first message I responded to... and again on this one. > > I'd expect it to evaluate the left side of the equation first before > > determining the address. A[2]=1. Any other order would not make > > sense. Oh no - it is quite common for a compiler to evaluate the address first, which gets stored in a holding register while the rest is evaluated ... but this discussion is meaningless because the issue here is the occurance of side effects. The application of side effects to multiply referenced items within a single sequence block is not specified by the standard. The side effect can happen as soon as the compiler emits code for the operator in question, or it can be deferred to some later point in the code emitted during that sequence block (and often is in the name of optimization). Theres also a wonderful "as if" clause which says that a compiler can violate the standard as long as the results behave "as if" it had not done so - An example of this might be a compiler deferring operation from one sequence block into the next if it has determined that doing so will not affect the results. Since undefined operation is by definition undefined, the "as if" clause always applies - hence the compiler can emit ode invoking undefined operation at the very end of our program if it wanted (or not at all) - (one would hope that a diagnostic would also be emitted :-) ... > It would to some compiler authors. (who sometimes have a different > reality than you and I do) :-) (I'm a compiler writer) > > But that only goes to show how poor this type of notation is for > > defining sequence of execution. This is why I still think RPN notation > > is much better for computer programming. This need not be a stack > > language like Forth. It is concise. Events happen left to right. No special > > rules. It isn't familar to what you learned in grade school but doesn't > > take long to grasp. A long debated viewpoint - but I think a better solution would be to emit diagnostics when such conditions are found - the problem is, although it's simple to detect with simple variables, the use of pointers or function calls with side-effects can make it impossible to detect such situations. In this respect, C is like assembly - You have to know what you are doing and avoid these traps. Perhaps the real solution is one of education. > Any completely defined language should produce the same results no matter > what is fed to the compilers. But, what about Y = X/0 ? In a simple > microcomputer implementation, howzbout > N = 32767; /*or 2147483647 (as used in MS-DOS file and partition size)*/ > N = N + 1; ? > > K&R was NOT a very rigid complete definition of the language. There were > many parts subject to choice or interpretation by the compiler author. > If you want to shoot yourself in the foot, C will provide you unlimited > large caliber ammunition. Absolutely - even standardized C allows for may implementation dependant aspects. This is a necessary evil due to the nature of a very widely accomodating portable language. > Going back to the original post, . . . > in addition to real problems with compilers (such as mishandling of > scope), programmers will tend to claim bugs in the compiler whenever they > encounter different results than from their "baby duck" compiler. > Mine was FORTRAN, followed by APL, 1401 machine, 1401 SPS, BASIC, . . . > (and a real programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language) > > Without meaning to offend you, I'm going to guess that you started with > FORTH and then branched out. There does seem to be less potential for > ambiguity in a RPN language that has one operation per instruction. > (which is what makes machine language so fulfilling) Any language of significant power allows you to hang yourself. The trick is knowing how to handle the rope - my early computing history involved more assembly language than anything else, and thinking from that perspective, I have no problems understanding and avoiding these details. It also helps that I know very precisely what code my compiler will generate for various constructs. - and yeah, at times in "quick and dirties" I've coded stuff invoking undefined behaviour knowing what to expect from my own toolset (ducking). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 18:06:07 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:06:07 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) Message-ID: >From: Fred Cisin > >On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Dave > > I'd expect it to evaluate the left side of the equation first before > > determining the address. A[2]=1. Any other order would not make > > sense. > >It would to some compiler authors. (who sometimes have a different >reality than you and I do) Hi Fred I'd expect the compile to do things in the needed order. Fetch the value of N to do something with( do the first increment ), calculate the address ( in doing so apply the second increment) and store the value into the array. > ---snip--- > >Without meaning to offend you, I'm going to guess that you started with >FORTH and then branched out. There does seem to be less potential for >ambiguity in a RPN language that has one operation per instruction. >(which is what makes machine language so fulfilling) Actually not. My first language exposure, like most, was BASIC. About the same time, I was doing 8080 machine code and 8048 code. I then did a lot of work with PLM/80 and more 8080. I fiddle a little with SmallTalk. It was about this time that I was exposed to a HP 35 calculator. With the combination of machine coding and high level languages so far, I could clearly see that RPN was concise and didn't need special thinking. About the same time period, I got my first taste of Forth. I was already sold on RPN and just had to learn what to do with the stack. I've since played with apl enough to know it doesn't make sense to me. Still it does look interesting from the standpoint of minimum entry. I've also written a few macros in LISP for AutoCad stuff and once for emacs. I current deal mostly with verilog both gate level and behavior. Still, I find that I'm most productive in Forth. Execution typically reads left to right as most would have expected the example to have done. There is no ambiguity about what is done when. I like that! Others don't seem to like that :( In some sense, Forth seems like machine language to most but I find that my code reads like sentenses. Especially as I abstract farther from the Forth low level words. It isn't English but it is clearly sentenses stating just what I want done and when. I've not seen any other language that does that and still has well defined excution order. I find that I factor code better and have less errors writing in other languages after having been exposed to Forth. I still enjoy writing in Forth more but few pay for that. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 2 18:10:05 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:10:05 -0500 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com> References: <200706021224.l52CNevM090657@dewey.classiccmp.org> <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com> Message-ID: <4661F8CD.9020207@oldskool.org> David Greelish wrote: > The only thing is, in DOS, it won't function as a true GUI with true GUI > apps, so the comparison is moot. How about GeoWorks Ensemble? Now that would indeed make an interesting comparison. Oranges to Oranges. (Geoworks Ensemble 1.0 or 2.0 on an XT, and Windows Vista on a modern machine, for example) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jun 2 18:09:34 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:09:34 -0500 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <46618564.27488.BCF5A78@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070602142012.J6937@shell.lmi.net> <46618564.27488.BCF5A78@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070602180843.06a2f6f0@mail> At 04:57 PM 6/2/2007, you wrote: >Always a good for a little headscratching to keep the gray matter >twitching: > >http://www.gimpel.com/html/bugs.htm Still around! "PC-lint for C/C++ the longest continuously advertised software tool in human history, was first introduced in 1985." I remember buying it and C-terp in 1985... - John From g-wright at att.net Sat Jun 2 18:17:53 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:17:53 +0000 Subject: HP 1000 21MX Wont turn on, No PS voltage Message-ID: <060220072317.17151.4661FAA0000A72C9000042FF21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, I have a HP 1000 21MX that wont bring up the Power supply. Has AC to it and the fans come on. It has a some what different battery backup connections on the rear than a 2117F. I tried the resister jumper from a 2117F but no go. There is no voltage output from the PS on any leg. Is there something different about these or do I need to trouble shoot the Power Supply Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From darin.lory at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 18:29:36 2007 From: darin.lory at gmail.com (Darin Lory) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:29:36 -0400 Subject: Linux on SGI In-Reply-To: <200706022253.l52MqMag098676@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706022253.l52MqMag098676@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1504CDE0-F23D-4BDB-8E3C-E3933A3BBE3B@gmail.com> On Jun 2, 2007, at 6:53 PM, Chris wrote: >Anyone running Linaches on SGI boxen? I imagine I >could get tarred and feathered for stating such in >certain mixed company, but even support for the R10000 >has materialized. Chris, Nahhh...no tar and feathers...but maybe a wet noodle. Yes, I know of people running older MIPS-compiled Red Hat 5.1 Linux or Debian Linux (http://members.optusnet.com.au/clausen/sgi/LINUX- IP27-HOWTO ) on SGI Indys or O2s being the most popular. There is also a Linux on MIPS Wiki at http://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/ Main_Page Or even SGI's own webpage http://www.linux.sgi.com/mips/ with downloadable Hard Hat (Red Hat Manhattan) 5.1 Linux http:// www.linux.sgi.com/mips/software.html I've heard of people using Origin 200 and Octanes (R10K or R12K MIPS) with Linux but that was after any playing I did with Linux on an Indy. MIPS Technologies (after splitting off of SGI) developed many new MIPS processors like the 24K, 34K, and 74K that are used with their Malta board and Linux from a couple of partners (4K processor also used by these partners). http://www.mips.com/products/softwaretools/ system_software/Linux.php -Darin From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 2 18:39:36 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:39:36 -0400 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2AB37A80-B5E4-4C88-8C1C-ECA02E24E5E3@neurotica.com> On Jun 2, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Richard wrote: >> I was working for Hazeltine terminals group at the time, one look >> at the >> 1400s and I left. There were a few things about it that suggested >> with >> better firmware it could be nice but didn't happen. > > That makes me wonder if new firmware could be created now? What uP > did it use to control the electronics? > > Its my first Hazeltine for my collection. And no, I don't expect I'll > actually be sitting at it doing coding :-P. I seem to recall the 1420 being built around the 8080. Not sure about the 1400, but I strongly suspect it's a very similar design. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 2 18:42:25 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:42:25 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> On Jun 2, 2007, at 2:17 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> It has a DB-25 RS-232 connector apparently for hooking up to a >> computer, >> but I don't know if it's wired as DTE or DCE. > > Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female > connectors > on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. I found > mine through > some surplus outfit years ago at about half the price, and find it > invalualble for answering questions like this... They still sell 'em...I saw one on the pegboard last week. That is one of the most-used pieces of test equipment around here, even though it barely qualifies as "test equipment". Anybody who doesn't have one either 1) never works with async serial, or 2) needs one. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 2 18:44:27 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:44:27 -0400 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On Jun 2, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > The abortive attempt to cluster the two Vaxes and copy data has > left me > much further back than when I started. > The network and terminal server connections are gone because I can't > start TCPWARE up. > It complains about a license and and something called NETCU (What the > hell is that?) and aborts the loading of TCPWARE. > > Lesson learned,= the boot from a cluster server idea is flawed and can > damage an existing setup. > Its probably one of those things everybody has heard about but never > actually done. You can't be serious...? Cluster-booting of VAXen is something that has been happening in thousands of multiple-VAX installations for two decades. I did it myself when I was still a teenager. It is nothing unusual. I am sorry to hear that the attempt hosed your machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 18:50:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 16:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <593488.39378.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> remember, the furniture industry used to, and may still to some extent (restorers even) use gold leaf for decorative purposes. The stuff is so thin - wild guess - somewhere between .0001 and .0003" thick - it floats in the air, and tares very easily. It's still gold, one of it's properties is that it can be spread awfully thin. Essentially they'd apply glue to the surface to be "gilded", allow it to get tacky, then apply the leaf with a brush, somewhat similar to a shaving brush (for applying shaving creme). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Jun 2 18:59:09 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 16:59:09 -0700 Subject: Linux on SGI Message-ID: Works marginally on certain limited hardware (IP30, IP22, IP32, IP27(Sort of)) NetBSD has slightly better hardware support. Support for graphics is marginal at best (Newport and some IMPACT). Go with IRIX, you'll be happier. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 2 19:05:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 17:05:00 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4661A33C.12725.C43EDB1@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2007 at 16:06, dwight elvey wrote: > I'd expect the compile to do things in the needed order. Fetch the > value of N to do something with( do the first increment ), calculate > the address ( in doing so apply the second increment) and store the > value into the array. Having spent a few years with FORTRAN optimization, I can safely say that all a compiler has to do is generate code that produces the right result. Eliminating, variables, loops, expressions, reduction in strength, moving instructions, inlining functions and a zillion other tricks is how you win benchmarks and get contracts. The thing that really plays hob with automatic optimization of C is the d*mned pointers, which can pretty much refer to anything. It's not really safe to assume that a compiler will generate what you expect for anything other than trivial cases--and sometimes not even then. But this isn't all bad--it frees the programmer to write code that is easy to read and leaves the bit-twiddling to the compiler. Or at least that's the theory. Anyone remember the FORTRAN "ABNORMAL" declaration? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 2 19:14:14 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:14:14 -0600 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> It would to some compiler authors. (who sometimes have a different >> reality than you and I do) > > :-) > > (I'm a compiler writer) Good I need a Free Compiler ... OH wait you may want $$$. I like the left to right idea A + B -> C > A long debated viewpoint - but I think a better solution would be to > emit diagnostics when such conditions are found - the problem is, although > it's simple to detect with simple variables, the use of pointers or > function calls with side-effects can make it impossible to detect such > situations. In this respect, C is like assembly - You have to know what > you are doing and avoid these traps. Perhaps the real solution is one > of education. But at least with the older C you could find your FEET to shoot. For humor check here. http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/usail/library/humor/shoot.foot.html > Absolutely - even standardized C allows for may implementation dependant > aspects. This is a necessary evil due to the nature of a very widely > accomodating portable language. Portable only if you assume BYTES are 8 bits (unsigned) now days. > Any language of significant power allows you to hang yourself. The trick > is knowing how to handle the rope - my early computing history involved > more assembly language than anything else, and thinking from that > perspective, I have no problems understanding and avoiding these details. > It also helps that I know very precisely what code my compiler will generate > for various constructs. - and yeah, at times in "quick and dirties" I've > coded stuff invoking undefined behaviour knowing what to expect from my > own toolset (ducking). So is the languages the problem or the hardware for clean coding? And just what is reasonable memory size anyhow ... > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > > . > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 19:15:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 17:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linux on SGI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <577415.6438.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Scott Quinn wrote: > Works marginally on certain limited hardware (IP30, > IP22, IP32, > IP27(Sort of)) NetBSD has slightly better hardware > support. Support for > graphics is marginal at best (Newport and some > IMPACT). > > Go with IRIX, you'll be happier. I realize that. The R10K I2s have the IP28 mobo, no? Just interesting to see that they got Linux going on that platform. SGI was one of the earliest supporters of Linux, but as I think you pointed out a while back, SGI is resistant about letting out the details regarding it's graphics hardware. Time to get out some of that epoxy dissolver I guess LOL. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 2 19:16:21 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 17:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> References: <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070602171434.P6937@shell.lmi.net> > > Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female > > connectors on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > They still sell 'em...I saw one on the pegboard last week. That > is one of the most-used pieces of test equipment around here, even > though it barely qualifies as "test equipment". Anybody who doesn't > have one either 1) never works with async serial, or 2) needs one. ;) Last time that I got one from RS, I opened it before using it, and was amazed to find soldering significantly worse than MY soldering. Once resoldered, it worked OK From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 2 20:45:11 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 20:45:11 -0500 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706030048.l530mBOh017357@hosting.monisys.ca> > >> It would to some compiler authors. (who sometimes have a different > >> reality than you and I do) > > > > :-) > > > > (I'm a compiler writer) > > Good I need a Free Compiler ... OH wait you may want $$$. In some cases... my PC/DOS compiler is free (and I've been known to give embedded tools to people with an interesting project). > I like the left to right idea A + B -> C To each his own - I'm very fond of APL which works that way except that it runs right to left. I always wanted to implement the "comes from" operator in one of my tools but never did... > > A long debated viewpoint - but I think a better solution would be to > > emit diagnostics when such conditions are found - the problem is, although > > it's simple to detect with simple variables, the use of pointers or > > function calls with side-effects can make it impossible to detect such > > situations. In this respect, C is like assembly - You have to know what > > you are doing and avoid these traps. Perhaps the real solution is one > > of education. > > But at least with the older C you could find your FEET to shoot. > For humor check here. > http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/usail/library/humor/shoot.foot.html Readability of a program is a reflection of the programmer, no matter what the language - good programmers can write very readable code in an unstructured language, while bad programmers will continue to write incomprehensible spagetti no matter how "cutting edge" the tools - Like any art form it flows from the human, not the tool. > > Absolutely - even standardized C allows for may implementation dependant > > aspects. This is a necessary evil due to the nature of a very widely > > accomodating portable language. > > Portable only if you assume BYTES are 8 bits (unsigned) now days. I've written code for non-8-bit byte machines, and also lots of code which wouldn't like such an environment - In those cases, I know that all likely targets of the code will be byte oriented. It's amazing how often this comes up as an argument that C is non-portable, It's like saying your famly sedan is not a general purpose automobile because it cannot operate on a road with a 3-foot width - yet people drive these cars all over the country (many countries) never knowing how restricted their vehicles are. People write plenty or portable code relying on at least 8-bit bytes every day. I have ported my C compiler to (at least) 12 different processor famlies, ranging from very limited architectures to rather complex and powerful processors - Yet I use the same front end, and 90+% of code written for one processor will compile (and run) without modification on the others. And a very high percentage of that code will compile under other vendors toolsets with minimal to no changes. My C compiler itself, certainly a non- trivial program compiles under itself, and several other vendors toolsets encompasing widely varying architectures with no changes, and not a single line of conditional compilation. Like readbility, portability is a reflection of the programmer, with the caveat that it will be influenced by the requirements. > > Any language of significant power allows you to hang yourself. The trick > > is knowing how to handle the rope - my early computing history involved > > more assembly language than anything else, and thinking from that > > perspective, I have no problems understanding and avoiding these details. > > It also helps that I know very precisely what code my compiler will generate > > for various constructs. - and yeah, at times in "quick and dirties" I've > > coded stuff invoking undefined behaviour knowing what to expect from my > > own toolset (ducking). > > So is the languages the problem or the hardware for clean coding? Neither - the answer is "the programmer". Many attempts have been made over the years to develop languages which force the programmer to be "good". But programming is an art, and an art cannot be synthisized. These efforts simply force unnecessary constraints on the real artists, and provide another forum for the bad ones to prove that they produce a mediocre work. > And just what is reasonable memory size anyhow ... How much fuel will you need for the trip? (Kinda hard to answer without parameters isn't it). An AVR1200 with 1K of program storage and NO RAM (only the CPU registers as temp store) is excessive for some tasks - an ARM9 with 1024MEG is limited for others (although I personally can't think of many). I do a lot of my DOS code in 64K "tiny" memory model (ImageDisk for example). But we do digress from Vintage Computing... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 2 20:21:16 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 18:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <200706030048.l530mBOh017357@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706030048.l530mBOh017357@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070602181447.G6937@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I like the left to right idea A + B -> C > > To each his own - I'm very fond of APL which works that way except > that it runs right to left. I like the arrow for assignment, instead of '=' (equality?). saves a lot of time with beginning programmers from math backgrounds, for whom N = 1 N = N + 1 would be an inductive proof that all numbers are equal, bringing about the end of the universe as we know it. > Many attempts have been made over the years to develop languages which > force the programmer to be "good". aka "padded rooms" > But programming is an art, and an art > cannot be synthisized. These efforts simply force unnecessary constraints > on the real artists, and provide another forum for the bad ones to prove > that they produce a mediocre work. . . . and a system that won't let you do the wrong thing places excessive limits on what right things you can do (such as disk I/O below the file level) > > And just what is reasonable memory size anyhow ... > But we do digress from Vintage Computing... but not very far. Who could possibly need more than 640K? or even 64K? Well, you could want lots of memory for data (think video), but properly written code shouldn't be so bulky. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 2 20:41:28 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:41:28 -0600 Subject: Linux on SGI In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:58:54 -0700. <537061.49757.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <537061.49757.qm at web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > Anyone running Linaches on SGI boxen? I can see it being useful for the rather pedestrian SGI boxes like Indy or Indigo2, but I can't see it being useful for the more exotic things like an Onyx with the Sirius Video option or an Onyx 2 with all its exotic hardware plugged in. Where would you get device drivers and tuned OpenGL implementations for all of that? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 21:36:46 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:36:46 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 21MX Wont turn on, No PS voltage In-Reply-To: <060220072317.17151.4661FAA0000A72C9000042FF21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <060220072317.17151.4661FAA0000A72C9000042FF21603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706021936h5af266f3we7665fcb20b99f9@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/07, g-wright at att.net wrote: > Hi, > > I have a HP 1000 21MX that wont bring up the Power supply. Has AC to it > and the fans come on. It has a some what different battery backup connections > on the rear than a 2117F. I tried the resister jumper from a 2117F but no go. > There is no voltage output from the PS on any leg. Is there something different about > these or do I need to trouble shoot the Power Supply > Is a 21MX a 2105A / 08A / 09A / 12A / 13A? My direct experience is limited to a 2113E and a 2117F (plus a 2100A that doesn't quite work at the moment). -Glen From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 2 17:39:15 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 22:39:15 +0000 Subject: Apple /// Power Supply In-Reply-To: <46609658.10305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <466026E9.4031.6764FED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070603023639.GRBG9197.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > No - I'm saying that surely a 1000 transistor board with circuits that repeat > is no more or less difficult than a 1000 transistor board where nothing > repeats; the level of effort required is largely the same as it's tracing the > interconnects which takes the bulk of the time, and that's got to be done > fully for both boards to guarantee an accurate schematic. (All of which > probably means that the number of PCB layers is irrelevant too - the critical > thing is the number of solder points) > > I'm not disputing that doing a 1000 transistor board is easier than something > with BGAs on it... :-) I had a situation very recently with a Dell W2600 LCD (26" widescreen). At first, thought was power issue yet I can feel relay click so there was some activity in the mainboard that turns on just the main supply but not the other 3 items turning on (via another control line) for PFC, LCD supply and audio supply.) Backtracked to the mainboard and determined that transistor is a PNP and is not pulling up a signal for that 3 items. What I did was to hopefully see if the rest of other items on mainboard is live by grounding that base of PNP transistor with a resistor. All the power supplies came up but nothing on LCD even lamp didn't light. Oh well, that will be scrapped anyway since owner doesn't want to spend much. The mainboard is one honking big multiple quad & BGA ICs. Cheers, Wizard From pt at new.rr.com Sat Jun 2 21:38:46 2007 From: pt at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 21:38:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: HP3000 rescue in Missouri Message-ID: Interested parties please respond to original poster: The 935 is definitely on topic as is some of the other stuff. Does anyone have an image of a HP2627A color console? I had not heard of this beast. From: Michael Gueterman Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp.mpe Subject: Office Cleanout! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:00:48 -0700 Message-ID: <1180710048.105002.173340 at q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Hello All! It's certainly been a while since I've looked in on the list/ newsgroup. Hope things are going well for everyone. Anyway, it's been so long since I've done any real HP3000 work I've decided to do some office cleaning and get rid of some old equipment. Most of this stuff works (or at least did when I shut off the power to them years ago :) but it's probably not economical to pack and ship. If you want it, you'll need to pick it up or I find someone to come and haul it away soon. The big one! HP3000 935, 2 cabinets with 3-4 eagle drives (I think one is dead if memory serves). This thing must weigh in at 1500 lbs plus! It has a couple of HPIB and one SCSI DAT drive. It does not have the SCSI boot firmware (sorry). I got this used myself several years ago and used it in the developers program so I don't have the MPE license for it. I'll also throw in the HP2627A color (Star Trek) color console! This is a package deal so no cherry picking (that's probably the only way someone may make the effort to get it :) Oh, there's also a HP9000 E55 in the same cabinet (had to stick it somewhere). Let's see, there's also a couple of A2094 monitors, a HP9000 712/60, a 2345A DTS, some comm equipment when we had our T1 line, and who knows what else is buried in the back (probably mostly trash). I also have some of the beige soft-bound manuals sitting on a shelf. I'm going to hang onto the 928 even though it's been powered off for over two years for sentimental reasons. I regret giving up my TRS-80 Level I system back in 1995 so some old stuff I'll keep :) I don't really expect that anyone will drive to mid-Missouri to get any of this, but wanted to offer it up before it finds it's way to an electronics recycler. It's just not worth it to me to package/ship anything so before someone says "Hey, I'll take blah blah blah if you can ship it", the answer is no. So, how is the "open sourcing" or at least the "prying of the source code from HP's hands" going for MPE? Regards, Michael L Gueterman Integrated Information Systems, Inc. -- From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 21:53:03 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 19:53:03 -0700 Subject: HP3000 rescue in Missouri In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706021953h527924e1t51b00160b0aa87b9@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/07, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Does anyone have an image of a HP2627A color console? > I had not heard of this beast. > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=248 http://www.hpmuseum.net/image.php?file=1148 From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 2 22:34:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 21:34:56 -0600 Subject: HP3000 rescue in Missouri In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Jun 2007 21:38:46 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Paul Thompson writes: > Does anyone have an image of a HP2627A color console? > I had not heard of this beast. Its the color graphics version of the 2621. Rare, IMO. I can't cherry pick the lot. And dammit, I was just out in St. Louis to get all that SGI gear. I would have picked this up at the same time! Jay West has a wonderful collection and might be interested, but if he picks it up I *still* won't get the terminal :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jun 2 22:40:27 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 23:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP3000 rescue in Missouri In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, Paul Thompson wrote: > Does anyone have an image of a HP2627A color console? > I had not heard of this beast. http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=248 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 23:29:32 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:29:32 -0400 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com> References: <200706021224.l52CNevM090657@dewey.classiccmp.org> <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com> Message-ID: <466243AC.9040702@gmail.com> David Greelish wrote: >> I have a 2GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 with 1GB RAM that gets booted into MS-DOS >> 7.1 at least twice a week. Anyone care to guess the boot time on that? > > The only thing is, in DOS, it won't function as a true GUI with true GUI > apps, so the comparison is moot. How about GeoWorks Ensemble? How about > Windows XP on a system with no additional "stuff" loaded, like > anti-virus, etc. It's an interesting article, but just how optimized was > this system for just office apps. Obviously the Mac Plus didn't go > online, etc., but I get the point, it was a standard system then, > compared to a standard system now. Where's the productivity advantage? I don't know, the machine runs WYSIWYG Lotus 1-2-3 for DOS 3.1 like a champ. On the rare occurrence (I think I may have done it once -- just to show I could do it) that I've needed to open a word processor on the DOS boot on this machine, WordPerfect 6.0 worked like a champ, and my output from it would have been identical (or close to it) to my output with Microsoft Word or Lotus Word Pro. And anyway, it doesn't take long to bring up Windows 3.1, and it really, really wouldn't take long if I added "win" to the end of my autoexec.bat file. Peace... Sridhar From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 2 23:33:41 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:33:41 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <200706021609.42751.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> <200706021609.42751.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <466244A5.2000001@comcast.net> Roy, Thanks for the input. I was thinking about including one with vertical rows and one with horizontal rows. That way you can have some flexibility. One of the recent options for the onboard power supply was to use a low dropout voltage regulator. This allowed boards to be installed in S-100 systems which contained either the original S-100 specs or the IEEE-696 specs. The latter have a lower power supply voltage on the backplane(translates to lower power consumption) which an ordinary 7805 voltage regulator can't accept. These require at least a 10+ volts on the backplane just to get a regulated 5V output. The LO voltage regulators need only about 7V input to get a regulated 5v output. The original backplanes were only 2 layer and couldn't handle the current capacity. The local(distributed) voltage regulators were the only option. You need at least a 4 or 6 layer backplane with a separate copper layer for each voltage and then a layer for ground to have enough copper for all that current. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Hmm, good question! > > I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in > the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been > in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero > location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears > that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and > such? And the Imsai, here. > > Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I lack a > few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. :-( > > I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, > but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess > vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? > That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of > later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a > regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the > regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a > lot of sense. > > From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 2 23:41:58 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:41:58 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <466173E2.17899.B8AF6F3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46617DF9.70605@comcast.net> <466173E2.17899.B8AF6F3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46624696.4070308@comcast.net> Chuck, Thanks for the good ideas. I don;t recall amny S-100 with the regulators at opposite corners, but then they did make a lot of designs back then. The ones I own have them situated on the same edge. I'll look in incorporating some of this into the design. The power traces are double sided, I only made a pic of the bottom side before. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Jun 2007 at 10:26, Dan wrote: > > >> I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board... >> > > For whatever my tuppence will get you today, I'd like to submit that > I'd prefer to see one regulator (+12, +5) at each corner, rather than > both at the same corner--better heat dissipation. > > I'd also like to see a row of pads at the top for a 50-position > ribbon cable connector or two. > > The orientation of the packages is fine. I'm assuming that the power > traces are duplicated on the reverse side of the board also. > > I hope some of this makes some sense to others. > > Thanks, > Chuck > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 00:05:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 22:05:17 -0700 Subject: "You Won't Believe Who Wins" In-Reply-To: <466243AC.9040702@gmail.com> References: <200706021224.l52CNevM090657@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <10CB5A70-3229-4B01-B169-AD2CE62C3BED@mac.com>, <466243AC.9040702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4661E99D.10692.D56D4C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 0:29, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > And anyway, it doesn't take long to bring up Windows 3.1, and it > really, really wouldn't take long if I added "win" to the end of my > autoexec.bat file. Wonder how long it would take to load Topview... :-) Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 3 00:08:52 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 01:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <05326FBB-2135-4473-86E8-4CEB7B0070AF@typewritten.org> References: <20070531162009.F32124@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 31, 7 04:24:49 pm" <200706011024.l51AOwHq021589@hosting.monisys.ca> <05326FBB-2135-4473-86E8-4CEB7B0070AF@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <200706030513.BAA18175@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> N = 1 >> Humm... undefined behaviour... >> A[500] = 9999 >> N = -1 > I think this is what's traditionally meant by "nose demons." I think nasal demons would be more like // ...Hmm, undefined behaviour... while (1) { kill(N,A[-N]); N++; } /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sun Jun 3 00:29:47 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:29:47 +0200 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <200706021821.29464.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F89@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706021821.29464.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1180848587.32294.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 18:21 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Saturday 02 June 2007 15:22, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > > > > The abortive attempt to cluster the two Vaxes and copy data has left > > me much further back than when I started. > > The network and terminal server connections are gone because I can't > > start TCPWARE up. > > It complains about a license and and something called NETCU (What the > > hell is that?) and aborts the loading of TCPWARE. > > I've never used TCPWARE. On the other hand, it appears that NETCU is > TCPware's "Network Control Utility": > http://www2.process.com/tcpip/tcpware57docs/NETCU/Front.htm > > It's possible that if you clustered your VAX, you upset TCPware's > licensing, and made it think that you had more than one system (or a > different one) trying to run TCPware. Hmm... you may now that you are in a VAXcluster with a shared license file have to explicitly specify which of the nodes on the cluster gets the license (if the license is specified as being limited to a single machine.) (Warning: This is from somewhat hazy memory, but I don't think any of this could harm the system.) do this by $ LICENSE MODIFY licensename/INCLUDE=hostname $ LICENSE LOAD licensename The hostname is the one gotten using $ SHOW SYSTEM I think this may very well solve your problem. > > Lesson learned,= the boot from a cluster server idea is flawed and can > > damage an existing setup. > > Its probably one of those things everybody has heard about but never > > actually done. > > I've done it plenty of times. I know other people on the list have done > it plenty of times, and people that I work with have done it in the > past. For the record, I've done it plenty of times - and I've run into this problem (In this case, it was the VAX-VMS license, which is generated with the NO_SHARE option, and thus needs to be tied to a single node when you're using a cluster. > If you had actually had DECnet installed, it probably would have worked > ok. LAVC's require DECnet to be installed, which the documentation > should have stated. As we discussed on IRC, I'm not so sure about that. > Why don't you get a copy of DECnet, install it, activate it using a > hobbyist license key (you're an Encompass aka DECUS member, right? > Associate memberships are free.), and try again. This is a good idea in any case. Happy hacking, -Tore :) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 3 00:33:20 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 01:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200706030538.BAA18351@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Absolutely - even standardized C allows for may implementation >> dependant aspects. This is a necessary evil due to the nature of a >> very widely accomodating portable language. > Portable only if you assume BYTES are 8 bits (unsigned) now days. This is just a modern form of "all the world's a VAX". It's approximately as necessary for "portable" code now as assuming you're on a VAX was for "portable" code then - and for approximately the same value of "portable" (not one I think really deserves the name, but that's a different issue). > So is the languages the problem or the hardware for clean coding? No, not really (though in some cases either can exacerbate problems). The actual problem is people coding who don't really grok programming, at best understanding "programming in COBOL for VM/CMS" or "programming in gcc for Linux on i386" or whatever - and usually not even that. > And just what is reasonable memory size anyhow ... ...for what? :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 00:50:13 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 01:50:13 -0400 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <200706030538.BAA18351@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> <200706030538.BAA18351@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46625695.8070207@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> So is the languages the problem or the hardware for clean coding? > > No, not really (though in some cases either can exacerbate problems). > The actual problem is people coding who don't really grok programming, > at best understanding "programming in COBOL for VM/CMS" or "programming > in gcc for Linux on i386" or whatever - and usually not even that. That's a concept which is lost on far too many people nowadays. I got the job I'm currently in after an exchange that went something like: "I see on your r?sum? that you can code in quite a few languages." "I mostly list languages on there so I get picked up by the keyword-searchers. The main thing is that I fundamentally understand how to program a computer." "When can you start?" 8-) Peace... Sridhar From g-wright at att.net Sun Jun 3 01:20:38 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 06:20:38 +0000 Subject: HP 1000 21MX Wont turn on, No PS voltage Message-ID: <060320070620.2290.46625DB5000DFFFC000008F221603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "Glen Slick" : -------------- > On 6/2/07, g-wright at att.net wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have a HP 1000 21MX that wont bring up the Power supply. Has AC to it > > and the fans come on. It has a some what different battery backup connections > > on the rear than a 2117F. I tried the resister jumper from a 2117F but no > go. > > There is no voltage output from the PS on any leg. Is there something > different about > > these or do I need to trouble shoot the Power Supply > > > > Is a 21MX a 2105A / 08A / 09A / 12A / 13A? My direct experience is > limited to a 2113E and a 2117F (plus a 2100A that doesn't quite work > at the moment). > > -Glen The HP tag on the back says its a 2105A - jerry From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 2 17:52:27 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 23:52:27 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason Sent: 02 June 2007 21:10 To: CCTECH Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available On Saturday 02 June 2007 10:26, Dan wrote: > I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I > noticed a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to > make this since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I > based this design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 > days. It's made by Electronic Control Technology. > > Here's a link to the picture > http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg > g> > > There were several different styles made before--each with their own > advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical > pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates > 2 voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of > solder pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. > > I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the > arrangement of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, > grid, etc. If I get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. > It's not much work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to > include 2 pcb designs at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of > S-100 designs. In the future, I like to setup a bigger panel to > include several more S-100 designs. > > Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and > offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and > intend to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is interested, > with enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. Hmm, good question! I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and such? And the Imsai, here. Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I lack a few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. :-( I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a lot of sense. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From grant at stockly.com Sun Jun 3 05:38:06 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 02:38:06 -0800 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <20070515182151.V97169@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> At 05:28 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote: >On Tue, 15 May 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > > Its an MDL-1011D with an FD1771-B01. > > What's the deal with this chip? Is it formatting the the disk as 360k? > >Nothing special. It is a SINGLE DENSITY (FM) ONLY chip. >Although it might give a final capacity of 360K or thereabouts, >It's parameters are most certainly NOT the same as the IBM "360K" format. >It is most likely formatting it as 10 256 byte sectors per track, >or as 18 128 byte sectors. >Tools for looking at MFM disks would be looking for MFM. NOT FM, and would >prob'ly default to expecting 512 bytes per sector. I found that I have to cover the hole or I get BDOS erros about missing sectors. I figured it wouldn't look for the hole... A freshly formatted disk gives me this: A>STAT B: BYTES REMAINING ON B: 69K A> 69k for a 1.4MB disk! I was ripped off! : ( It is running CP/M 1.4. I have the sources if anyone is interested. This is what it says when it boots up: TARBELL 24K CPM V1.4 OF 7-20-79 2SIO MINIFLOPPY VERSION. HOW MANY DISKS? 2 A> Were single sided single density 5.25" disks ~70k? The 3.5" drive does sound different than it usually does. : ) From austin at ozpass.co.uk Sun Jun 3 06:12:10 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:12:10 +0100 Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. Message-ID: Just found this on ebay.co.uk: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Xerox-terminal-for-the-Star-Office-System-1980 s_W0QQitemZ280119650017QQihZ018QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV iewItem Could this be used as a terminal for anything other than a Xerox Star Office System? I?m on the lookout for a quirky terminal for my unix boxen.... -Austin. From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Jun 3 07:13:54 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 07:13:54 -0500 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <200706030538.BAA18351@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <466207D6.4070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200706031116.l53BGtnj023957@hosting.monisys.ca> > > Portable only if you assume BYTES are 8 bits (unsigned) now days. > > This is just a modern form of "all the world's a VAX". It's > approximately as necessary for "portable" code now as assuming you're > on a VAX was for "portable" code then - and for approximately the same > value of "portable" (not one I think really deserves the name, but > that's a different issue). I don't agree ... "all the world's a VAX" is narrowing your "portable" program to variants of a specific architecture. Assuming that a byte has at least 8-bits covers the vast majority of general purpose CPU architectures (past and present). Sure there are examples of non-byte machines, however the truth is that if you encounter a machine which runs code, chances are very high that it uses an 8-bit byte. Saying that programs "isn't portable" because it assumes 8-bit bytes is only slightly less narrow than saying that programs are not portable because they don't operate on machines that don't run code. There's no such thing as perfect portability, and there will always be machines that won't run your program "as is". Varying degrees of modification will be required to do so ranging from tweaking an I/O call, to full rewrite, and in some cases, complete redesign from the ground up. The whole thing about portability is trying to minimize the work required to move a program without introducing excessive operational overhead. Accomodating "any size" byte will in most cases cause a substantial overhead with very little gain in portability. To write code - any code, you need to have assumptions about the system it will run on. For portability we try establish a set of assumptions with broad enough scope to allow us to work, and which applies to the widest varity of architectures. An 8-bit byte is a reasonable assumption regarding the majority of both modern and classic computer systems. I agree that in past days, "all the world's a VAX" was a reasonable assumption, because it was required (due to the lack of portable tools and development environments) in order to achieve a broad enough base of assumptions to write meaningful programs. But I do not agree that "all the world's and 8-bit byte" is anywhere near as equally restrictive an assumption, hence the value of "portable" is nowhere near the same. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Jun 3 07:29:04 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 07:29:04 -0500 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46624696.4070308@comcast.net> References: <466173E2.17899.B8AF6F3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706031132.l53BW5lF025787@hosting.monisys.ca> > Thanks for the good ideas. I don't recall any S-100 with the regulators > at opposite corners, but then they did make a lot of designs back then. > The ones I own have them situated on the same edge. I've got photos of a good number of S-100 boards on my site which may be useful as a reference. Click on the "S-100" title of the S-100 machine section, or look at any specific machine and click on the installed boards. There are a few which have regulators in opposite corners (SSM CB processors for example), and a few which have refulators on opposite ends at the top (eg: Cromemco System support), but most boards have the regulators clustered together. What I find interesting is the number of boards where the regulators are positioned away from the end with the power supplies, with traces running around the outer edge of the board to carry unregulated power. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 06:58:45 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:58:45 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4662ACF5.9090800@comcast.net> Rod, I see what you mean. I'm just starting off small right now since it's mainly a hobby. It's mostly to support the existing vintage computers out there. I really don't know what the demand there is for a new S-100 chassis. I suppose that might be a good kit to build with the right parts. I can look into this. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Rod Smallwood wrote: > Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. > Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! > > Rod Smallwood > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 04:14:03 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:14:03 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I am beginning to wonder if everybody is talking and nobody is listening. ************************************************************************ *************** * The target machine is not running anything except low level firmware !!! * * No DECNet No Tcpip No VMS - Nothing !!!! (It can't-disk drives inoperable) * ************************************************************************ *************** However after wading around in sea of online manuals I think am beginning to find out the things they don't tell you. Given that there has to be some form of communication between the Boot server and the target. Then what's left is this MOP thing. As you can specify that the boot device is the ethernet adaptor (EZA0: in this case) when you try to boot from the target system it must be sending out some kind of request packet with an ID attached. It can't be a node name or an IP address. There's no way tell it what they are!! What it does know, is its MAC address which is hard encoded into the interface. The server has to respond to the request (Remember No Decnet and No Tcpip available) somehow or other. So what is it that runs on the server does not use Decnet or Tcpip and can load images into the target machine? We can rule out @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN which expects Decnet and screw's up TCPWARE. I'm out of ideas at this point. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 03 June 2007 00:44 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Repairing the damage. Importance: High On Jun 2, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > The abortive attempt to cluster the two Vaxes and copy data has left > me much further back than when I started. > The network and terminal server connections are gone because I can't > start TCPWARE up. > It complains about a license and and something called NETCU (What the > hell is that?) and aborts the loading of TCPWARE. > > Lesson learned,= the boot from a cluster server idea is flawed and can > damage an existing setup. > Its probably one of those things everybody has heard about but never > actually done. You can't be serious...? Cluster-booting of VAXen is something that has been happening in thousands of multiple-VAX installations for two decades. I did it myself when I was still a teenager. It is nothing unusual. I am sorry to hear that the attempt hosed your machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 04:18:12 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:18:12 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Brand new DLTape straight out of the box!! -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of e.stiebler Sent: 02 June 2007 23:09 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Repairing the damage. Rod Smallwood wrote: > Back up did somebody say Back up.? > The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite the > fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting to do a > backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected > which it isn't. Make sure it isn't a TK50 you put in the TK70, or formatted as TK50. Probably switch the drives between the systems ? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 06:30:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:30:18 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ200CKB59PNO22@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: Dan > Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:33:41 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >Roy, > >Thanks for the input. I was thinking about including one with vertical >rows and one with horizontal rows. That way you can have some flexibility. > >One of the recent options for the onboard power supply was to use a low >dropout voltage regulator. This allowed boards to be installed in S-100 >systems which contained either the original S-100 specs or the IEEE-696 >specs. The latter have a lower power supply voltage on the >backplane(translates to lower power consumption) which an ordinary 7805 >voltage regulator can't accept. These require at least a 10+ volts on >the backplane just to get a regulated 5V output. The LO voltage >regulators need only about 7V input to get a regulated 5v output. Wrong data. The 7805/lm309/lm323 reguire only 8V. All of the older 3 terminal regulators must have a 2.7V differential to regulate. The yabut, most of the S100 supplies were so poorly filtered that at any load the ripple voltage was excessive and didn't meet the minimum of 8V at the bottom of the ripple trough. A good example of that was the early Altair 8800 before MITS upgraded the transformer. With a 8A load the DC votage sat at 8.3V but the lowest voltage was 7.1V due to the AC ripple. Needless to say that ripple fould it's way to the 5V rail as the regualtor didn't have enough head room to regulate. The fix was a higher voltage transformer or much heaftier filter caps or both. > >The original backplanes were only 2 layer and couldn't handle the >current capacity. The local(distributed) voltage regulators were the >only option. You need at least a 4 or 6 layer backplane with a separate >copper layer for each voltage and then a layer for ground to have enough >copper for all that current. Seals made a decent proto card. Horizontally gridded for power, up to four regulator pads one of which was for +12 (7812), plated though holes both hole per pad and for power gridding (two sides). Allison >=Dan > >[ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] > > > >Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Hmm, good question! >> >> I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in >> the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been >> in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero >> location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears >> that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and >> such? And the Imsai, here. >> >> Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I lack a >> few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. :-( >> >> I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, >> but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess >> vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? >> That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of >> later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a >> regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the >> regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a >> lot of sense. >> >> From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 06:31:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:31:50 -0400 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? Message-ID: <0JJ200CAG5C9NJ52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hazeltine 1400 info? > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:39:36 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Jun 2, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Richard wrote: >>> I was working for Hazeltine terminals group at the time, one look >>> at the >>> 1400s and I left. There were a few things about it that suggested >>> with >>> better firmware it could be nice but didn't happen. >> >> That makes me wonder if new firmware could be created now? What uP >> did it use to control the electronics? >> >> Its my first Hazeltine for my collection. And no, I don't expect I'll >> actually be sitting at it doing coding :-P. > > I seem to recall the 1420 being built around the 8080. Not sure >about the 1400, but I strongly suspect it's a very similar design. > It was 8048/9 not 8080. The 1500 series was 8080. Allison > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 06:34:05 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:34:05 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ200C6F5G0N722@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:52:27 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. >Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! > >Rod Smallwood There are plenty of S100 crates around usually with boards missing or damaged. That is rarely a problem, Working bords to fill it or proto on are. Allison > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason >Sent: 02 June 2007 21:10 >To: CCTECH >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > >On Saturday 02 June 2007 10:26, Dan wrote: >> I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I >> noticed a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to >> make this since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I >> based this design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 >> days. It's made by Electronic Control Technology. >> >> Here's a link to the picture >> http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg >> > g> >> >> There were several different styles made before--each with their own >> advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical >> pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates >> 2 voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of >> solder pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. >> >> I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the >> arrangement of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, >> grid, etc. If I get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. >> It's not much work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to >> include 2 pcb designs at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of >> S-100 designs. In the future, I like to setup a bigger panel to >> include several more S-100 designs. >> >> Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and >> offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and >> intend to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is interested, >> with enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. > >Hmm, good question! > >I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and such? And the Imsai, here. > >Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I lack a few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. :-( > >I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? >That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a lot of sense. > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin > > > From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Jun 3 07:38:42 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:38:42 +0100 Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1180874322.18727.21.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 12:12 +0100, Austin Pass wrote: > Just found this on ebay.co.uk: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Xerox-terminal-for-the-Star-Office-System-1980 > s_W0QQitemZ280119650017QQihZ018QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV > iewItem > http://tinyurl.com/32u9mx for those who don't like multi-line URLs > Could this be used as a terminal for anything other than a Xerox Star Office > System? I?m on the lookout for a quirky terminal for my unix boxen.... It looks like a pretty ordinary ADM3A case at least... Gordon From steerex at mindspring.com Sun Jun 3 07:57:33 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 08:57:33 -0400 Subject: HP3000 rescue in Missouri Message-ID: <01C7A5BD.3C146500@MAGGIE> > >So, how is the "open sourcing" or at least the "prying of the source >code from HP's hands" going >or MPE? >Regards, >Michael L Gueterman >Integrated Information Systems, Inc. >-- Will this machice run the same MPE/V as the smaller systems (IE 3000/42) ? See ya, SteveRob From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jun 3 08:16:46 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:16:46 -0600 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4662BF3E.2090508@e-bbes.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Brand new DLTape straight out of the box!! Did you swap the drives already ? >> Back up did somebody say Back up.? >> The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite the >> fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting to do a > >> backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected >> which it isn't. > > Make sure it isn't a TK50 you put in the TK70, or formatted as TK50. > Probably switch the drives between the systems ? > > > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 08:51:25 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 06:51:25 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 21MX Wont turn on, No PS voltage In-Reply-To: <060320070620.2290.46625DB5000DFFFC000008F221603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <060320070620.2290.46625DB5000DFFFC000008F221603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706030651n2e1b1291icdc5ca4f78e0fce6@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/07, g-wright at att.net wrote: > > The HP tag on the back says its a 2105A > Does the rear panel look like the diagram on page VIII-19 of this manual? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/ 92851-90001_Mar81_9.pdf If so, most likely need to figure out what needs to be connected to the rear plug which is connected to the 02108-60032 control cable assembly shown on pages VIII-20 - 22. It sounds like the power supply could be in the CPU-MEM Alarm mode mentioned in this manual: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/ 92851-90001_Mar81_8.pdf I haven't looked at that manual enough to see how the rear panel control cable assembly is wired in the power supply schematics or if the text describes what needs to be connected there for the supply to operate normally. That's where I would start with these manuals, unless someone else with direct knowledge can jump in with the answer on how to get the 2105A supply turned on in a normal operation mode. -Glen From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 3 08:54:29 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 09:54:29 -0400 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706030954.29834.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 03 June 2007 05:18, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Brand new DLTape straight out of the box!! I don't think that later DLT media is going to have any chance to work properly on a TK50 or TK70 drive. You need to find CompactTape II media for your TK70. This is like trying to use "high density" floppy media in a "low density" drive... it's the wrong oesterd to work properly (if at all). Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of e.stiebler > Sent: 02 June 2007 23:09 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Repairing the damage. > > Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Back up did somebody say Back up.? > > The whole reason I attempted doing it this way is because despite > > the fact that both systems have TK 70 tape drives when attempting > > to do a > > > > backup on the -200 it keeps telling me the tape is write protected > > which it isn't. > > Make sure it isn't a TK50 you put in the TK70, or formatted as TK50. > Probably switch the drives between the systems ? -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 09:12:37 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 07:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <215963.72478.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Could this be used as a terminal for anything other > than a Xerox Star Office > System? I?m on the lookout for a quirky terminal > for my unix boxen.... More than likely. It looks like a rebadged Lear Siegler ADM3A -Ian From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Jun 3 09:47:56 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:47:56 -0400 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4662D49C.4000208@hawkmountain.net> Grant Stockly wrote: > > > BYTES REMAINING ON B: 69K > > A> > > 69k for a 1.4MB disk! I was ripped off! : ( It is running CP/M > 1.4. I have the sources if anyone is interested. > > This is what it says when it boots up: > > TARBELL 24K CPM V1.4 OF 7-20-79 > 2SIO MINIFLOPPY VERSION. > HOW MANY DISKS? 2 > A> > > Were single sided single density 5.25" disks ~70k? The 3.5" drive > does sound different than it usually does. : ) > Don't know about CPM, but SSSD (FM) disks on Atari's were around 90K. I also believe if you are formatting the 3.5" drive at SD, you best be using 720K 3.5" media... HD media will probably not work well, or not retain data (much the same problem as using non HD formats on HD 5.25" disks). I know I did SSSD on 720K 3.5" media on my Atari using my ATR8000. Worked fine. -- Curt From dasbooterror at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 10:08:16 2007 From: dasbooterror at gmail.com (Joshua Benedetto) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 11:08:16 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) Message-ID: <21e211710706030808o2379e1d3r1b5b1e54a5026895@mail.gmail.com> >Hi Joshua >It seems like you are the person to ask. I did some calculations showing >that one would need a large area of PC boards covered with gold to >get to an ounce ( w/ typical plating ). >About how much gold would you expect to recover in 100 lbs of >average PC boards. My guess would put it in the 1/8 of an ounce >or less. Surely not enough to pay $500 for a pile of boards. >Dwight Well certainly he is trying to rip you off, why else? TBH, you usually dont handle such small amounts of salvage... to offset costs we were dealing with 1000lbs or more of scrap. Im not sure on the actual gold recovered, I didn't handle the precipitation of the gold from solution, i handled the grunt work of smashing up chips and stripping boards for the acid bath. So if your actually looking to make profit in this field you need to deal in scrap by the truckload Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 10:29:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 08:29:01 -0700 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com>, <20070515182151.V97169@shell.lmi.net>, <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46627BCD.11671.F91E062@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 2:38, Grant Stockly wrote: > BYTES REMAINING ON B: 69K Doesn't sound too far off from right. Consider that the Tarbell's probably using 35 cylinders on one side at the 250KHz clock single density. Let's run some numbers for 128 byte sectors, of which we can safely put 16 of them to the track: 35 * 128 * 16 = 71680 bytes. Now, if we take a 1K = 1024 bytes, that's 70K. Reserve a track or two for a boot track... You'd be better off calling your 3.5" drive an 8" unit to get 250K (SS) on a disk. Okay, you're going to say, but what about the deal with the 1.44MB drive being 300 RPM and not 360? Won't that cause a problem. Yes, but--you can fix the problem--several ways. About a year or two ago, I wrote to Herb Johnson on his retrocomputing site about how to modify some models of Teac FD-235HF drives to run at 360 RPM. You see, for many years, a lot of Japanese equipment requires a 360 RPM drive and many manufacturers have a way to accomplish this--even if they don't document it particularly well. I believe that FD-235HG's bring the speed select out to the edge connector, but they're harder to find on this side of the pond. Almost all NEC 3.5" HD drives can be modified for 360 RPM use. The other alternative is to swap the crystal on your Tarbell controller for something that's a bit slower to make the drive look as if it's running at 360 RPM. Say, for sake of argument that the crystal is 8 MHz. By substituting a crystal for (8*(300/360)) = 6.6666...7MHz, things will work as expected, albeit somewhat slower, but still faster than the 5.25" mode. You could also modify the formatting software to lay out a longer track (i.e. increase the number of end-of-track "run out" bytes) or even format the diskettes using something like 22Disk, which doesn't care if the physical track is too long. You could also modify the formatting software and CBIOS to handle 80 track 16-sector disks. Not as good as simulating 8" drives, but better than 60K. You could also modify it to use larger sector sizes. I don't know if the Tarbell controller handles double-sided drives, but that's another possibility. Early 5.25" drives were really pretty wimpy things compared to the 8" heavy iron. :) Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jun 3 10:35:39 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 08:35:39 -0700 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <9489c9797bdf4afbd69b1defbed398e0@valleyimplants.com> Aren't VAXen similar enough to where you could drop the -300's disk in the -200, install VMS (or dup from the -200's system disk), reinstall the disk in the -300, key in the -300's licenses and AUTOGEN? I don't know as much about VMS as I'd like to, but I've had the disk from a 3100/76 up on a 4000/200 to test functionality, and is seemed to work fine. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 10:38:49 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 11:38:49 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <21e211710706030808o2379e1d3r1b5b1e54a5026895@mail.gmail.com> References: <21e211710706030808o2379e1d3r1b5b1e54a5026895@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > So if your actually looking to make profit in this field you need to > deal in scrap by the truckload Very true. Many refineries have a setup fee - generally pretty steep - for every load brought in. If just a small load is brought in, the fee can wipe out profit fast. Bring in several tons and the fee is just a minor cost of business. I am pretty sure the fee is to discourage the little guys. -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 10:57:18 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 08:57:18 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <21e211710706030808o2379e1d3r1b5b1e54a5026895@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: "Joshua Benedetto" > >>Hi Joshua >>It seems like you are the person to ask. I did some calculations showing >>that one would need a large area of PC boards covered with gold to >>get to an ounce ( w/ typical plating ). >>About how much gold would you expect to recover in 100 lbs of >>average PC boards. My guess would put it in the 1/8 of an ounce >>or less. Surely not enough to pay $500 for a pile of boards. >>Dwight > >Well certainly he is trying to rip you off, why else? > >TBH, you usually dont handle such small amounts of salvage... to >offset costs we were dealing with 1000lbs or more of scrap. Im not >sure on the actual gold recovered, I didn't handle the precipitation >of the gold from solution, i handled the grunt work of smashing up >chips and stripping boards for the acid bath. > >So if your actually looking to make profit in this field you need to >deal in scrap by the truckload > >Josh Thanks Josh That is what I was trying to say. Yes there is gold but 100lbs of boards is not enough to get excited about, even with mil parts and gold leads. Each part has a few cents of gold or it couldn't have been manufactures in the first place. I though I'd point out that gold leaf is even thinner than what is typically plated on electronic parts. As I stated most plating is 15 mil or .000015 inch. Gold leaf is about .0000001 inch. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Play games, earn tickets, get cool prizes. Play now?it's FREE! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink1 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jun 3 10:59:26 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 17:59:26 +0200 Subject: SGI IRIX licenses? In-Reply-To: <2790DEF6-6C95-4C89-896F-B51CB7E99C0A@gmail.com> References: <200706020039.l520cmsg081055@dewey.classiccmp.org> <2790DEF6-6C95-4C89-896F-B51CB7E99C0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070603175926.439e9406@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:05:22 -0400 Darin Lory wrote: > All Freeware software is at http://freeware.sgi.com/ Last time I checked this it was quite outdated. I recommend to use Nekoware from Nekochan: http://www.nekochan.net/ http://www.nekoware.net/ Maybe also worth a note: The newest IRIX that supports non-PCI machines (Indy, Indigo(2), ...) is 6.5.22. So there is no need to hunt anything newer if you have one of those "old" machines. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 11:03:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:03:44 -0600 Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:38:42 +0100. <1180874322.18727.21.camel@elric> Message-ID: In article <1180874322.18727.21.camel at elric>, Gordon JC Pearce writes: > It looks like a pretty ordinary ADM3A case at least... Not so ordinary considering it was rebranded by Xerox. It also looks to be in very fine cosmetic shape. I'd snag it if it were in the US. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 11:04:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:04:18 -0600 Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:38:42 +0100. <1180874322.18727.21.camel@elric> Message-ID: Plus I haven't seen a white ADM-3A before. Yellow, green, blue, yes. White, no. I know that Lear-Siegler would paint the case in a variety of colors, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 11:16:39 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:16:39 -0400 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: References: <21e211710706030808o2379e1d3r1b5b1e54a5026895@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > That is what I was trying to say. Yes there is gold but 100lbs of boards > is not enough to get excited about, even with mil parts and gold leads. It is, however, extremely common for people to stockpile boards until they get a few tons. > Each part has a few cents of gold or it couldn't have been manufactures > in the first place. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The "purple" ceramic DIPs and PGAs have a LOT of gold in them. Additionally, some printed circuit boards have quite a lot of gold - older HP being the standout, of course. At USR, the quad modem boards had every via and pad gold plated. This gold is hidden under all the solder when the product comes out of the line. -- Will From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jun 3 11:31:10 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 17:31:10 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <000001c7a5fc$9b864c80$9304010a@uatempname> >I am beginning to wonder if everybody is talking and nobody is >listening. >The target machine is not running anything except low level firmware That's how it works. >The server has to respond to the request (Remember No Decnet and No >Tcpip available) somehow or other. Your server (the VAX 4000-200) does have to be running DECnet. MOP is not technically part of DECnet but the MOP-handling software is started as part of DECnet. (Actually, there is a another way with more recent versions of OpenVMS, using the LANACP stuff but I assume you haven't done this). Maybe I've missed a message or to, but does your VAX 4000-200 have DECnet (either Phase IV or DECnet-Plus) installed and running? It would be very unusual if it didn't, but it is possible to install without it. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jun 3 11:33:31 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 17:33:31 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <000101c7a5fc$ed54fca0$9304010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Brand new DLTape straight out of the box!! You need CompactTape II for a TK70 or CompactTape for a TK50. IIRC you have a TK70, so a CompactTape II is what you want. Where are you in the UK? I expect one of us could find a tape to donate. Antonio From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 11:46:53 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:46:53 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <0JJ200CKB59PNO22@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJ200CKB59PNO22@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4662F07D.4060009@comcast.net> I was trying to convey that point about the filtering, which is one reason why to have a higher output voltage on the transformer, eg. 10v versus 8v. The 7805 is capable of running at 7V --provided that-- the input is rock solid. When designing, it's not acceptable to let a system run at the bare threshold, it is preferable to have an acceptable margin to account for tolerances. The LDO voltage regulators (LM2940) are capable of running at a lower threshold, offer lower dissipation and a lower dropout voltage. This avoids having to replace the transformer in most cases. I would still change the filter caps since they're 30yrs old. As a result, it allows a greater margin for the power regulation and better stability. They're a drop-in replacement for any of the 7805 and 7812 devices. I make it a point to replace them with these on any old board I have. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Allison wrote: >> Wrong data. The 7805/lm309/lm323 reguire only 8V. All of the older >> 3 terminal regulators must have a 2.7V differential to regulate. >> >> The yabut, most of the S100 supplies were so poorly filtered that >> at any load the ripple voltage was excessive and didn't meet the minimum >> of 8V at the bottom of the ripple trough. A good example of that >> was the early Altair 8800 before MITS upgraded the transformer. >> With a 8A load the DC votage sat at 8.3V but the lowest voltage was >> 7.1V due to the AC ripple. Needless to say that ripple fould it's >> way to the 5V rail as the regualtor didn't have enough head room to >> regulate. The fix was a higher voltage transformer or much heaftier >> filter caps or both. >> >> From f5inl at wanadoo.fr Sun Jun 3 11:47:12 2007 From: f5inl at wanadoo.fr (Frederic BOSSU) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 18:47:12 +0200 Subject: === compaq SLT-286 power supply === Message-ID: <000001c7a5fe$d8c5b3e0$0a01a8c0@p4> Hi, I recently acquired an old Compaq SLT-286, but unfortunately, the power supply was not given to me. So I had to find a way of making it work by myself... I tried to connect a + 12 Vdc to the power connectors that normally are assigned to the battery. I put the ground on the most right pin, and a +12V on the most left one. The two middle pins were left unconnected, and of course, I removed the battery to avoid shortcuts. ( Ooops...when I say left/right, it's when the computer's screen is facing me, keyboard is removed, and the battery connector is located on the top/left corner :-) Like this : +------------------+ | **** | | ABCD | | | | | | | | | | | +------------------+ A : +12V D : GND BC : left unconnected With this, the computers boots normally on the floppy drive, but refuses to boot on the Hard drive. I obtain a 162 error message, inviting me to run SETUP. Then, I tried to run the compaq "setup.exe" diagnostic program, and I managed to see that my hard drive is perfectly recognized ! So, could anyone tell me il if I missed something ? Is my +12 Vdc connexion enough for powering the whole computer ? Actually I find very surprising that the battery's power connector has four pins, and I managed to do it work with only two :-( Thanks for your help, guys ! Sincerely, Fred. From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 12:01:20 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:01:20 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <200706031132.l53BW5lF025787@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <466173E2.17899.B8AF6F3@cclist.sydex.com> <200706031132.l53BW5lF025787@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4662F3E0.3090105@comcast.net> Dave, thanks for tip. I noticed from all the pics that the designs didn't follow one standard. The one basic premise is that the regulators never sit below any IC's, as this causes the heat to flow over them. I see that the regulators are mostly on the left or top left, so that the traces for the power input are kept reasonably short, from pins 1,2,51,52. The one trace that circles the board is the ground trace. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Thanks for the good ideas. I don't recall any S-100 with the regulators >> at opposite corners, but then they did make a lot of designs back then. >> The ones I own have them situated on the same edge. >> > > I've got photos of a good number of S-100 boards on my site which may be > useful as a reference. Click on the "S-100" title of the S-100 machine > section, or look at any specific machine and click on the installed boards. > > There are a few which have regulators in opposite corners (SSM CB processors > for example), and a few which have refulators on opposite ends at the top > (eg: Cromemco System support), but most boards have the regulators clustered > together. What I find interesting is the number of boards where the regulators > are positioned away from the end with the power supplies, with traces running > around the outer edge of the board to carry unregulated power. > > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 12:06:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:06:23 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662F07D.4060009@comcast.net> References: <0JJ200CKB59PNO22@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <4662F07D.4060009@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4662929F.22327.FEB0444@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 12:46, Dan wrote: > > I was trying to convey that point about the filtering, which is one > reason why to have a higher output voltage on the transformer, eg. 10v > versus 8v... Dan, why not just include a couple of pads for a jumper around the 78xx, just in case the user has a regulated supply? AFAIK, that would definitely be a minority of S-100 systems deployed. I suppose one could, for the 5 volts, add an overvoltage crowbar circuit or even just a 6v zener and fuse if leaving the jumper on by mistake was a concern (which it probably shouldn't be). Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 3 12:10:56 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:10:56 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear regulators? Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Jun 3 07:53:10 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:53:10 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <1180875190.18727.24.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 23:52 +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. > Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! Actually, this is a pretty good point. I'm looking for a card cage and card format for a project, where I need to supply +/-15v and a mix of analogue and digital signals to some cards, possibly about the size of (or a bit smaller than eurocards). Each card really only needs about a dozen pins. Does anyone know of anything easily available and cost-effective? Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 08:52:42 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:52:42 +0100 Subject: Cluster Booting - What they dont tell you. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> ************************************** Episode 1 *********************************** This is as far as I got to this morning: I am beginning to wonder if everybody is talking and nobody is listening. ************************************************************************ *************** * The target machine is not running anything except low level firmware !!! * * No DECNet No Tcpip No VMS - Nothing !!!! (It can't-disk drives inoperable) * ************************************************************************ *************** However after wading around in sea of online manuals I think am beginning to find out the things they don't tell you. Given that there has to be some form of communication between the Boot server and the target. Then what's left is this MOP thing. As you can specify that the boot device is the ethernet adaptor (EZA0: in this case) when you try to boot from the target system it must be sending out some kind of request packet with an ID attached. It can't be a node name or an IP address. There's no way tell it what they are!! What it does know, is its MAC address which is hard encoded into the interface. The server has to respond to the request (Remember No Decnet and No Tcpip available) somehow or other. So what is it that runs on the server does not use Decnet or Tcpip and can load images into the target machine? We can rule out @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN which expects Decnet and screw's up TCPWARE. I'm out of ideas at this point. Rod Smallwood ************************************** Episode 2 *********************************** More wading around in on line manuals ... Then some light .... The key is a program called LANCP invoked as $MCR LANCP It allows you to associate a name say VAX300 with a MAC address and add it to a database. To do this it uses the DEFINE command. DEFINE NODE VAX300/ADDRESS=08-00-2B-18-BB-D0/FILE=APB_061.EXE This refered to as a NODE. Now the Boot server knows about the target machine and its MAC Address. So far so good.... Now for the other half of the puzzle. How does the boot server listen for requests. Well there's an executable program call LANACP that is invoked by running LAN$STARTUP.COM Once running it services boot requests from across the network. It uses the data from the data base maintained by LANCP. It gives progress messages when a Node tries to boot. ... and of course it works up to the point where it does not recognise the file name to down load (I have not found out what thats called yet) So.. 1. Hands up all of you who knew this and did not mention it. - Shame on you!!! 2. Hands up all of you that did not know this - Well, now you do!! 3. For MOP read LANACP. 4. Whats the name of the file to be downloaded from boot server to target to get VMS running on the target.? Lessons 1. Never run a .COM file before looking to see what it does. 2. Try and work out what needs to happen first. Rod Smallwood From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 09:20:47 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:20:47 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Thanks for the positive feed back. Needless to say like all standards S100 had different versions. For example the Northstar Horizion had some active components on the mother board. However if we look at a basic passive (other than power) back plane. What are the potential problems? Firstly the connectors are they available? They had two rows of fifty connections. Spacing pin to pin .125in. Mother board was thicker than the usual 1/16 in for rigidity possibily 3/32 in. Card guides pretty standard but how high? Then the metalwork supporting the card guides. Possible Parts List 1. Double sided S100 motherboard (Say twelve slots) 2. Aluminium base plate drilled for backplane and card guide supports. 3. Twelve double sided 2x50 edge connectors. 4. Card guide support frame. 5. Twenty four card guides. 6. Nuts, bolts and screws etc. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Sent: 03 June 2007 12:59 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Rod, I see what you mean. I'm just starting off small right now since it's mainly a hobby. It's mostly to support the existing vintage computers out there. I really don't know what the demand there is for a new S-100 chassis. I suppose that might be a good kit to build with the right parts. I can look into this. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Rod Smallwood wrote: > Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. > Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! > > Rod Smallwood > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 09:24:30 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:24:30 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F90@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi 1. Where did you see all these crates. (I'm in the UK) 2. Nice shiny new boards in old back planes ? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: 03 June 2007 12:34 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > >Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:52:27 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > >Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. >Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! > >Rod Smallwood There are plenty of S100 crates around usually with boards missing or damaged. That is rarely a problem, Working bords to fill it or proto on are. Allison > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason >Sent: 02 June 2007 21:10 >To: CCTECH >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > >On Saturday 02 June 2007 10:26, Dan wrote: >> I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I >> noticed a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to >> make this since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I >> based this design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 >> days. It's made by Electronic Control Technology. >> >> Here's a link to the picture >> http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg >> > p >> g> >> >> There were several different styles made before--each with their own >> advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical >> pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates >> 2 voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of >> solder pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. >> >> I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the >> arrangement of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, >> grid, etc. If I get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. >> It's not much work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to >> include 2 pcb designs at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of >> S-100 designs. In the future, I like to setup a bigger panel to >> include several more S-100 designs. >> >> Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and >> offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and >> intend to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is >> interested, with enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. > >Hmm, good question! > >I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and such? And the Imsai, here. > >Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I >lack a few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. >:-( > >I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? >That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a lot of sense. > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. >--James M Dakin > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 3 12:39:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 11:39:32 -0600 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4662FCD4.8070900@jetnet.ab.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > > If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st > century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear > regulators? > > Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. True, but with the advent modern chips like CMOS I see that power consumption less of a problem. Is the proto-board for 8 bit S-100 or 16 bit S-100 as I remember some where the buss was upgraded for 16 bit processors? ( Can you say INTEL ? ) If it where not for that fact, having De-codeing and buffer chips laid out as that would save some space rather than in the pro-type area. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 3 12:51:04 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:51:04 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <9489c9797bdf4afbd69b1defbed398e0@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On 3/6/07 16:35, "Scott Quinn" wrote: > > Aren't VAXen similar enough to where you could drop the -300's disk in > the -200, install VMS (or dup from the -200's system disk), reinstall > the disk in the -300, key in the -300's licenses and AUTOGEN? I don't > know as much about VMS as I'd like to, but I've had the disk from a > 3100/76 up on a 4000/200 to test functionality, and is seemed to work > fine. Yep. In fact, you could put a new disk in the -200, do a minimum boot then $backup/image onto it, put it back in the -300 and boot..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 3 12:39:51 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:39:51 -0400 Subject: Linux on SGI In-Reply-To: <577415.6438.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <577415.6438.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200706031339.52096.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 June 2007 20:15, Chris M wrote: > Time to get out some of that epoxy dissolver I guess LOL. Is there something out there that'll do that? And how do you keep it from hitting epoxy-cased components while it's working? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 12:53:36 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <348457.56143.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > Plus I haven't seen a white ADM-3A before. Yellow, > green, blue, yes. > White, no. I know that Lear-Siegler would paint the > case in a variety > of colors, though. I have one. It's white on the top, light gray on the bottom. I also have the classic light blue with darker blue bottom ones. Never seen them in green or yellow though. But, as with most peripherals that got rebadged, they would have been repainted to match whatever hardware they were sold with. -Ian From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 3 12:54:09 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:54:09 -0400 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200706031354.09913.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 June 2007 06:38, Grant Stockly wrote: > Were single sided single density 5.25" disks ~70k? The 3.5" drive does > sound different than it usually does. : ) Well, my recollection is that the single-sided disks on my Osborne held 183K. A single-sided "pc" disk held roughly 180K as well, so half of that would be 90K. Those were 9 sectors/track, and I seem to remember an 8 sectors/track format as well, giving 80K? Not too far off, I guess. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 3 13:00:47 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:00:47 -0400 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <4662D49C.4000208@hawkmountain.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <4662D49C.4000208@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <200706031400.47391.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 June 2007 10:47, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > I also believe if you are formatting the 3.5" drive at SD, you best be > using 720K 3.5" media... HD media will probably not work well, or not > retain data (much the same problem as using non HD formats on HD 5.25" > disks). Doesn't this depend on the write current supplied by the drive electronics, rather than the format used? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 3 13:19:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:19:19 -0500 Subject: Aztec C In-Reply-To: <20070602181447.G6937@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706022301.l52N10uu032544@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706030048.l530mBOh017357@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070602181447.G6937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46630627.1080508@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >> But programming is an art, and an art >> cannot be synthisized. These efforts simply force unnecessary constraints >> on the real artists, and provide another forum for the bad ones to prove >> that they produce a mediocre work. > > . . . and a system that won't let you do the wrong thing places excessive > limits on what right things you can do (such as disk I/O below the file > level) I always think that the key is a language which allows programmers to do "everything" (for suitable values of everything, of course), but only allows them to do any one thing one way only. One of the things which irritates about C is that there's always a million different ways of expressing the most simple of things; I like the language's power, but understanding someone else's obfuscation can be a little annoying at times. Incidentally I stumbled across brainf*ck as a language the other day. 8 instructions. Beautiful :-) (http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 3 13:37:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:37:02 -0400 Subject: Hazeltine 1400 info? In-Reply-To: <0JJ200CAG5C9NJ52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJ200CAG5C9NJ52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <90381410-71D9-4393-990B-EDBA490FC33C@neurotica.com> On Jun 3, 2007, at 7:31 AM, Allison wrote: >>>> I was working for Hazeltine terminals group at the time, one look >>>> at the >>>> 1400s and I left. There were a few things about it that suggested >>>> with >>>> better firmware it could be nice but didn't happen. >>> >>> That makes me wonder if new firmware could be created now? What uP >>> did it use to control the electronics? >>> >>> Its my first Hazeltine for my collection. And no, I don't expect >>> I'll >>> actually be sitting at it doing coding :-P. >> >> I seem to recall the 1420 being built around the 8080. Not sure >> about the 1400, but I strongly suspect it's a very similar design. >> > > It was 8048/9 not 8080. The 1500 series was 8080. Indeed, I was quite certain my *1420* was 8080-based, so I went and dug it up...when I found it, it was a 1510. It must've changed from a 1420 to a 1510 when I wasn't looking. ;) But it (the *1510*) was indeed built around an 8080. :) And sadly, it is quite dead...powers up and says "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP! *" interminably. Anybody got schematics? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 3 13:37:49 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:37:49 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <0JJ200C6F5G0N722@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJ200C6F5G0N722@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <262F95B9-4233-4541-94EC-95F5040804D7@neurotica.com> On Jun 3, 2007, at 7:34 AM, Allison wrote: >> Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card >> cage with back plane and PSU. >> Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! > > There are plenty of S100 crates around usually with boards missing > or damaged. > That is rarely a problem, Working bords to fill it or proto on are. I'd love to find one...Do you know of any specifically, offhand? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 13:43:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 11:43:46 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 10:10, Al Kossow wrote: > If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st > century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear > regulators? > > Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. Al, I confess to not having a good handle on this matter of what's "vintage" and what's not. I was looking at 78xx linear regulators as being "authentic". I mean, why bother with S-100 at all? There are plenty of better busses now, right? I plead ignorance at knowing where to draw the line on this stuff. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jun 3 13:52:21 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 19:52:21 +0100 Subject: Cluster Booting - What they dont tell you. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <000001c7a610$52adadf0$9304010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > We can rule out @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN which expects Decnet > and screw's up TCPWARE. > > I'm out of ideas at this point. > Lessons > > 1. Never run a .COM file before looking to see what it does. cluster_config*_LAN*.com? You aren't meant to run that are you? At least, I've never done it that way. I've just attached a sample of invoking @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM on my VAX. If you never at least entered the MAC address of your satellite VAX then you definitely ran the wrong procedure! I thought you had V6.2 - the LANACP stuff popped in V7 sometime, for those who didn't want to install DECnet-Plus. I would expect the procedure (if you run the right one) to do the right thing (but I don't have a VAX with that config around to check right now). One other thing: > DEFINE NODE VAX300/ADDRESS=08-00-2B-18-BB-D0/FILE=APB_061.EXE Before you go to far down this path, this is used to boot an Alpha from an InfoServer (or at least that's what I think it is, my infoserver isn't in use right now). So I don't think this is what you want. CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM should as a few questions, set a bunch of stuff up and then wait for you to boot your VAX 4000-300. There's no way that you are expected to delve this deep into this stuff if you run the right procedure. Antonio KRAKAR::SYSTEM> @cluster_config Cluster Configuration Procedure Executing on a VAX System This system is running DECnet-Plus. DECnet will be used for MOP downline loading. To ensure that this procedure is executing with the required privileges, invoke it from the system manager's account. Enter a "?" for help at any prompt. If you are familiar with the execution of this procedure, you may want to mute extra notes and explanations by invoking it with "@CLUSTER_CONFIG BRIEF". KRAKAR is a VAX system and currently a member of a cluster so the following functions can be performed: MAIN MENU 1. ADD a VAX node to the cluster. 2. REMOVE a node from the cluster. 3. CHANGE a cluster member's characteristics. 4. CREATE a duplicate system disk for KRAKAR. 5. MAKE a directory structure for a new root on a system disk. 6. DELETE a root from a system disk. 7. EXIT from this procedure. Enter choice [1]: This ADD function will add a new VAX node to the cluster. WARNING: If the node being added is a voting member, EXPECTED_VOTES for every cluster member must be adjusted. For complete instructions check the section on configuring a cluster in the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. CAUTION: If this cluster is running with multiple system disks and common system files will be used, please, do not proceed unless appropriate logical names are defined for cluster common files in SYLOGICALS.COM. For instructions, refer to the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. Do you want to continue [N]? y For additional networking information, please refer to the DECnet-Plus Network Management manual. What is the node's DECnet fullname? LOCAL:.TEST What is the SCS node name for this node [TEST]? Do you want to define a DECnet synonym [Y]? What is the synonym name for this node [TEST]? What is the MOP service client name for this node [TEST]? What is the node's DECnet Phase IV address? 1.98 Will TEST be a satellite [Y]? WARNING: When the new node is a satellite, the network databases on KRAKAR are updated by this procedure. You must see to it that the network databases on all other cluster members are updated. On every boot node that may provide MOP service to the new satellite, also make certain SYS$MANAGER:NET$LOGICALS.COM contains the command: $ DEFINE NET$STARTUP_MOP TRUE For help, refer to the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. Does TEST need to be registered in the namespace [N]? Verifying circuits in network database... What is the Cluster Alias fullname? Note: KRAKAR has 1 LAN circuit(s) in the ON state, with service enabled. This procedure will establish circuit CSMACD-0 for KRAKAR's booting of TEST. What is TEST's LAN adapter hardware address? 08-00-2b-00-00-01 This procedure will now ask you for the device name of TEST's system root. The default device name (DISK$OPENVMS071:) is the logical volume name of SYS$SYSDEVICE:. What is the device name for TEST's system root [default DISK$OPENVMS071:]? What is the name of TEST's system root [SYS10]? Allow conversational bootstraps on TEST [N]? The following workstation windowing options are available: 1. No workstation software 2. DECwindows Workstation Software 3. VWS Workstation Software (not installed) Enter choice [1]: Creating directory tree SYS10 ... %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %SET-I-ENTERED, $1$DKA0:<000000>VMS$COMMON.DIR;1 entered as $1$DKA0:SYSCO MMON.DIR; %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created System root SYS10 created Will TEST be a disk server [N]? Updating network database... On all other boot nodes which may provide MOP DLL service to TEST, execute the following command: $ @SYS$MANAGER:NET$CONFIGURE "ALS_CONFIGURE" "ADD_CLIENT" - _$ "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]clu20200205.tmp3" "TEST" "08-00-2B-00-00-01" "1. 98" - _$ "DISK$OPENVMS071:" Configuration last run by SYSTEM on 28-JAN-1999 10:11:34.08 Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.760+01:00Iinf Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.860+01:00Iinf Characteristics Addresses = { 08-00-2B-00-00-01 , AA-00-04-00-62-04 (1.98) } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.870+01:00Iinf Characteristics Tertiary Loader = { sys$system:tertiary_vmb.exe } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.880+01:00Iinf Characteristics System Image = { "@net$niscs_laa(DISK$OPENVMS071:)" } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.890+01:00Iinf Characteristics Verification = '0000000000000000'H Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.890+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Host Name = KRAKAR Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.900+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Host Address = 1.150 Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.910+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Client Name = TEST Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.910+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Client Address = 1.98 %NET$CONFIGURE-I-MODCHECKSUM, checksumming NCL management scripts modified by NE T$CONFIGURE DELETE SYS$SPECIFIC:[SYSEXE]NET$CHECKSUM_NCL_LOCAL_SAVED.DAT;12 ? [N]: y DELETE SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]NET$CHECKSUM_NCL_COMMON_SAVED.DAT;12 ? [N]: a %PURGE-I-NOFILPURG, no files purged sys$manager:net$dns_clerk_startup.ncl changed to use the new default namespace. Your default namespace nickname is LOCAL. Your default namespace NSCTS is 08-00-2B-0D-C0-9D-5F-FA-A9-88-43-46-95-00. Clearing old local namespace entries prior to loading new entries Loading new local namespace node name entries Saving the new local namespace contents Maximum number of node names that can be loaded: 190 Number of node names that are currently loaded: 4 %NET$CONFIGURE-I-CONFIGCOMPLETED, DECnet-Plus for OpenVMS configuration complete d Size of pagefile for TEST [RETURN for AUTOGEN sizing]? A temporary pagefile will be created until resizing by AUTOGEN. The default size below is arbitrary and may or may not be appropriate. Size of temporary pagefile [10000]? Size of swap file for TEST [RETURN for AUTOGEN sizing]? A temporary swap file will be created until resizing by AUTOGEN. The default size below is arbitrary and may or may not be appropriate. Size of temporary swap file [8000]? Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? y Does TEST have any RFxx disks [N]? y Enter a value for TEST's ALLOCLASS parameter [1]: This procedure will now wait until TEST is a member of the cluster. Once TEST joins the cluster, this procedure will ask you which local disk it can use for paging and swapping. Please boot TEST now. Make sure the default boot device is set to be the LAN device appropriate for the satellite. See the hardware user manual or the console help command for instructions to do this. Waiting for TEST to boot... Waiting for TEST to boot... From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jun 3 14:17:21 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:17:21 -0600 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <466313C1.8080900@e-bbes.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jun 2007 at 10:10, Al Kossow wrote: > > Al, I confess to not having a good handle on this matter of what's > "vintage" and what's not. I was looking at 78xx linear regulators as > being "authentic". I mean, why bother with S-100 at all? There are > plenty of better busses now, right? I was hoping somebody would ask that. There are really nicer busses, PCB formats, connectors available now. (VME ? Not talking about the bus, but the Euro connector & format is nice and cheap) Cheers From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 14:55:08 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:55:08 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46631C9C.30602@comcast.net> That's a start. But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts. Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason. I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk. It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design I'm working on. Only if there's enough people interested of course. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Thanks for the positive feed back. Needless to say like all standards > S100 had different versions. > For example the Northstar Horizion had some active components on the > mother board. > However if we look at a basic passive (other than power) back plane. > What are the potential problems? Firstly the connectors are they > available? They had two rows of fifty connections. > Spacing pin to pin .125in. Mother board was thicker than the usual 1/16 > in for rigidity possibily 3/32 in. > Card guides pretty standard but how high? Then the metalwork supporting > the card guides. > > Possible Parts List > > 1. Double sided S100 motherboard (Say twelve slots) > 2. Aluminium base plate drilled for backplane and card guide > supports. > 3. Twelve double sided 2x50 edge connectors. > 4. Card guide support frame. > 5. Twenty four card guides. > 6. Nuts, bolts and screws etc. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan > Sent: 03 June 2007 12:59 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > > Rod, > > I see what you mean. I'm just starting off small right now since it's > mainly a hobby. It's mostly to support the existing vintage computers > out there. I really don't know what the demand there is for a new S-100 > chassis. I suppose that might be a good kit to build with the right > parts. I can look into this. > > =Dan > > [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] > > > > Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage >> > with back plane and PSU. > >> Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> > > > > > > From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 14:59:40 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:59:40 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662929F.22327.FEB0444@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0JJ200CKB59PNO22@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <4662F07D.4060009@comcast.net> <4662929F.22327.FEB0444@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46631DAC.4020308@comcast.net> Chuck, That jumper is simple enough to put in there. I could even add a note in the silkscreen on how to jumper this. Any other power circuitry would have to be left up to the user. I like to stick with the basics for now. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jun 2007 at 12:46, Dan wrote: > > >> I was trying to convey that point about the filtering, which is one >> reason why to have a higher output voltage on the transformer, eg. 10v >> versus 8v... >> > > Dan, why not just include a couple of pads for a jumper around the > 78xx, just in case the user has a regulated supply? AFAIK, that would > definitely be a minority of S-100 systems deployed. I suppose one > could, for the 5 volts, add an overvoltage crowbar circuit or even > just a 6v zener and fuse if leaving the jumper on by mistake was a > concern (which it probably shouldn't be). > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 15:03:52 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linux on SGI In-Reply-To: <200706031339.52096.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <474657.97686.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Saturday 02 June 2007 20:15, Chris M wrote: > > Time to get out some of that epoxy dissolver I > guess LOL. > > Is there something out there that'll do that? And > how do you keep it from > hitting epoxy-cased components while it's working? There was a thread oh about a year ago or so. I think the title was "grinding down ic's" or something similar. ALOT of dudes came out of the woodwork (don't take that the wrong way, it just seems there's a number of people who mainly monitor the posts, and wait until some esoteric topic comes up, and then they materialize. I was impressed). Some mentioned the epoxy material is simply dissolved rather then just the top ground off. You'll have to refer to that thread for the best treatment of the subject. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 15:05:37 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <20070603125058.Y45414@shell.lmi.net> > > > Its an MDL-1011D with an FD1771-B01. > > > What's the deal with this chip? Is it formatting the the disk as 360k? > >Nothing special. It is a SINGLE DENSITY (FM) ONLY chip. > >Although it might give a final capacity of 360K or thereabouts, > >It's parameters are most certainly NOT the same as the IBM "360K" format. > >It is most likely formatting it as 10 256 byte sectors per track, APPARENTLY not, that would give about 100K > >or as 18 128 byte sectors. > >Tools for looking at MFM disks would be looking for MFM. NOT FM, and would > >prob'ly default to expecting 512 bytes per sector. On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > I found that I have to cover the hole or I get BDOS erros about missing > sectors. I figured it wouldn't look for the hole... The "media type" hole on a 1.4M? There exist some drives that ignore the "media type" hole, pqrticularly many/most? of the ones that IBM used in the PS/2s. They rely on the disk controller board to tell them when to go to reduced current. or the index hole on a 5.25"? > A freshly formatted disk gives me this: > A>STAT B: > BYTES REMAINING ON B: 69K > 69k for a 1.4MB disk! I was ripped off! : ( It is running CP/M 1.4. I > have the sources if anyone is interested. Did 1.4 support the DSK option of STAT? It gives some more info about the format. If so, try B: A:STAT DSK: > This is what it says when it boots up: > TARBELL 24K CPM V1.4 OF 7-20-79 > 2SIO MINIFLOPPY VERSION. > HOW MANY DISKS? 2 > Were single sided single density 5.25" disks ~70k? YES. SSSD 5.25" could range from that up to about 100K. Is it using 35 tracks (SA400) or 40 tracks? Most PC floppy controllers will not handle FM/Single density. Use Dave's test program on your PC to see if you have a chance. In addition, it may be writine 128 byte sectors, which leaves out a lot more of the NEC type FDC chips. If you have access to a TRS80 Mod 3 or 4, TRAKCESS would be a good tool for analyzing these disks. It is mostly in BASIC, so it canbe easily modified for additional functionality. > The 3.5" drive does > sound different than it usually does. : ) It's not used to getting a pause between seeks, and not getting beaten half to death by a thrashing OS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 15:13:25 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:13:25 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <466320E5.8030702@comcast.net> On such a small board, I'm not sure it's practical yet. The pcb real estate + parts cost vs. the wattage might not be cost effective. The LM2940 series regulator is a basic yet improved with minimum overhead. When you need to convert down to something such as 3.3v, 2.5v or 1.8v, an onboard switcher will help. If there's any switching power supply being used, it would be sitting at the bottom of the backplane rather than on each board. It's more cost effective this way. Then you can just remove the onboard regulator and bypass it with a jumper wire. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Al Kossow wrote: > > If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st > century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear > regulators? > > Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. > > > > > From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 15:15:27 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:15:27 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662FCD4.8070900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662FCD4.8070900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4663215F.6030904@comcast.net> I remember the16bit option too. That's not hard to add since I was thinking about including the decode logic to save space. Thanks for the tip. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] woodelf wrote: > Is the proto-board > for 8 bit S-100 or 16 bit S-100 as I remember some where the buss > was upgraded for 16 bit processors? ( Can you say INTEL ? ) > If it where not for that fact, having De-codeing and buffer chips > laid out as that would save some space rather than in the pro-type > area. > > > > From grant at stockly.com Sun Jun 3 15:25:39 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:25:39 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46631C9C.30602@comcast.net> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> At 11:55 AM 6/3/2007, you wrote: >That's a start. >But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts. >Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason. >I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk. >It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design I'm >working on. >Only if there's enough people interested of course. A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 slots at a production quantity of 50. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jun 3 15:35:58 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 slots at a > production quantity of 50. On top of that, S100 motherboards are still fairly easy to find. If anyone's interested, I'll have some ready for sale in a couple weeks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 15:37:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <942712.43689.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- dwight elvey wrote: As I stated > most plating is 15 mil > or .000015 inch. Gold leaf is about .0000001 inch. > Dwight Gold leaf is one-tenth of one-millionth of an inch thick??? I guess my questimate was way too high, but that seems a bit low. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JeniferVilfranc.shtml claims .000003 - .000005 inches thick or thereabouts. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 15:41:58 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <200706031354.09913.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <200706031354.09913.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070603131629.D45414@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Well, my recollection is that the single-sided disks on my Osborne held 183K. The MFM/Double Density. The single density was 40 track * 10 sectors per track * 256 bytes per sector. (100K) Allowing for the possibility of using 35, instead of 40 tracks (SA400), and 128 byte sectors (due to the "overhead"/gaps, could usually only fit 18 per track) would give 80640 bytes (78.75K), although that could also be obtained by 9 * 256. > A single-sided "pc" disk held roughly 180K as well, so half of that would be > 90K. Those were 9 sectors/track, and I seem to remember an 8 sectors/track > format as well, giving 80K? Not too far off, I guess. The single sided "360K" formats were, indeed 160K (DOS 1.xx) and 180K (DOS 2.xx) (40 * 512 * 8, 40 * 512 * 9) But, "half" is inaccurate. The name "Single Density" for FM did not exist until AFTER the name "Double Density" came about. Just as "The Great War" was not known as "World War I" until "World War II" began to be discussed. "Double Density" was a MARKETING name, produced by those who feared the dissemination of the actual information about it more than cannon. (Good sig quote!) FM provided 1 bit of info for every two pulses; hence, some recording engineers would prefer to see it called "Half Density". MFM permitted the omission of some, but not all of the clock pulses, thereby permitting squeezing twice the raw data transfer rate, and getting ALMOST, but definitely not quite, twice the info in the same space. Although you could get 10 * 256 on FM, you could only get about 18 256 byte sectors with MFM, and putting 10 512 byte sectors in MFM required seriously compromising the size of the intersector gaps to squeeze them in. > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 15:52:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:52:18 -0700 Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <942712.43689.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <942712.43689.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4662C792.12797.10B9DAB3@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 13:37, Chris M wrote: > claims .000003 - .000005 inches thick or thereabouts. Doesn't anyone talk microns anymore? :-( I hate them zeroes... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 15:53:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the Dimension dimensions Message-ID: <939471.19652.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, Does anyone on this friggin list LOL LOL own a Northstar Dimension? I'd like to know it's dimensions (how quaint) and how much it weighs. I got a line on a few, and want to help the dude get a carton for it and all. Thanks so much. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 16:00:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun, HP "scrap" (???) In-Reply-To: <4662C792.12797.10B9DAB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <585221.6486.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jun 2007 at 13:37, Chris M wrote: > > > claims .000003 - .000005 inches thick or > thereabouts. > > Doesn't anyone talk microns anymore? :-( I hate > them zeroes... I guess you need to be a machinist to not-mind. I love the zeros. There's no ambiguity. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From grant at stockly.com Sun Jun 3 16:11:11 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:11:11 -0800 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <20070603125058.Y45414@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> >The "media type" hole on a 1.4M? >There exist some drives that ignore the "media type" hole, pqrticularly >many/most? of the ones that IBM used in the PS/2s. They rely on the disk >controller board to tell them when to go to reduced current. > >or the index hole on a 5.25"? The type hole on a 1.4M disk. >Did 1.4 support the DSK option of STAT? It gives some more info about the >format. >If so, try >B: >A:STAT DSK: No, but I did find a program: TARBELL MINI-FLOPPY DIAGNOSTIC OF 8-1-80 STANDARD VERSION 1.8 40 TRACKS 18 SECTORS >\Most PC floppy controllers will not handle FM/Single density. Use Dave's >test program on your PC to see if you have a chance. What I would really like to do is find some way of connecting a 3.5" disk drive to the MITS hard sectored controller card set. This would give me the 300 or so K and allow me to run MITS basic off of the disk. Do you know anything about how to do that? Is it possible? Maybe with a PLD to deal with soft/hard sectored stuff? I have not investigated anything yet so I am not sure what it would take. If its possible I'm sure I could get it done. Grant From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 16:37:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:37:57 -0700 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com>, <20070603125058.Y45414@shell.lmi.net>, <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4662D245.28879.10E3A4FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 13:11, Grant Stockly wrote: >> TARBELL MINI-FLOPPY DIAGNOSTIC OF 8-1-80 > STANDARD VERSION 1.8 > 40 TRACKS 18 SECTORS > > What I would really like to do is find some way of connecting a 3.5" disk > drive to the MITS hard sectored controller card set. This would give me > the 300 or so K and allow me to run MITS basic off of the disk. Do you > know anything about how to do that? Is it possible? Maybe with a PLD to > deal with soft/hard sectored stuff? So I was pretty close. The 1771 is keeping 128 byte sectors--which figures. IIRC, the MITS controller required an 8" drive. Just confugure a 1.44M as an 8" SS soft-sectored drive, use 26x128x77 format and enjoy the 250K that it brings you. Yes, you could generate index pulses with something like a PIC (you'd want to adjust the spacing to conform to the drive speed). But the 50K additional is, IMOHO, not worth it. Cheers, Chuck > > I have not investigated anything yet so I am not sure what it would > take. If its possible I'm sure I could get it done. > > Grant > > From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 16:39:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:39:26 -0600 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? Message-ID: I purchased a Qume QVT-101 terminal on ebay. I asked the seller how it would be packed for shipment. They didn't respond. I asked again. They didn't respond. I asked a third time, they responded "It will be shipped the usual way". I responded that since I've never purchased anything from them before that this doesn't answer my questions about how the item will be shipped. I don't want to receive damaged terminals from ebay anymore. I explained this to the seller. Instead of answering my simple question and reassuring me that it will be properly shippe, they just immediately open an ebay dispute on me and then have turned it into an "unpaid item strike". I've appealed the strike with ebay, but I doubt I'll get any love from them. So my question is -- what does this mean for me? Is it just listed as harsh negative feedback? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 16:42:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:42:54 -0600 Subject: Nice little terminal for a Star System. In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:53:36 -0700. <348457.56143.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <348457.56143.qm at web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > > --- Richard wrote: > > > Plus I haven't seen a white ADM-3A before. Yellow, > > green, blue, yes. > > White, no. I know that Lear-Siegler would paint the > > case in a variety > > of colors, though. > > I have one. It's white on the top, light gray on the > bottom. I also have the classic light blue with darker > blue bottom ones. Never seen them in green or yellow > though. I have blue ADM-5s, green ADM-3s and a yellow ADM-3 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 16:47:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:47:15 -0600 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:39:26 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > [...] I've appealed the > strike with ebay, but I doubt I'll get any love from them. Well it appears I was too pessimistic about ebay. Within minutes of me appealing the strike it was removed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From davis at saw.net Sun Jun 3 17:02:00 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:02:00 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> [...] That compiler was obviously >>>> pre-ANSI or something. >>>> >>> K&R C allows . . . >>> >> There was enormous variation in C compilers. And there were lots of >> programmers that thought that anything that worked for them was therefore >> legit. For example, what would you expect from: >> (and would you really expect it to behave the same on other compilers?) >> >> N = 1; >> A[N++] = N++; >> > > I'd expect that to evaluate to a[1]=2 and n winds up being 3. But I'm weird. > > Wow! Having used all the compilers mentioned in this thread, I would have assumed a[1]=1 since the post incs *should not* happen until after the ; I'm missing the ambiguity, although hard rules for post inc were fuzzy back then. (70's-80's) Jim Davis. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 3 16:02:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 22:02:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 2, 7 07:42:25 pm Message-ID: > > On Jun 2, 2007, at 2:17 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> It has a DB-25 RS-232 connector apparently for hooking up to a > >> computer, > >> but I don't know if it's wired as DTE or DCE. Incidentally, did any company ever wire the DB25 RS232 connector on a _terminal_ as a DCE???? I've seen computers with connectors wired both ways, but I've never seen a terminal that wasn't a DTE (or for that matter a modem that wasn't a DCE) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 3 15:56:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 21:56:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 2, 7 07:42:25 pm Message-ID: > > Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female > > connectors > > on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. I found > > mine through > > some surplus outfit years ago at about half the price, and find it > > invalualble for answering questions like this... > > They still sell 'em...I saw one on the pegboard last week. That > is one of the most-used pieces of test equipment around here, even > though it barely qualifies as "test equipment". Anybody who doesn't > have one either 1) never works with async serial, or 2) needs one. ;) I'll go along with that. I have one, and I use it a lot more than my fancier RS232 test gear (like a Tekky datavoms terst). It's so easy just to plug in the LED tester and see (as you said) which pin the thing is transmitting on, which handshake lines is seems to be driving, and so on. I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been fine ever since. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 17:11:51 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <4662D49C.4000208@hawkmountain.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <4662D49C.4000208@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <20070603150732.L45414@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > I also believe if you are formatting the 3.5" drive at SD, you best be using > 720K 3.5" media... HD media will probably not work well, or not retain data > (much the same problem as using non HD formats on HD 5.25" disks). > I know I did SSSD on 720K 3.5" media on my Atari using my ATR8000. > Worked fine. A reasonable concern. But, good news (for a change). The problem with wrong media for 5.25" is an issue of 300 Oersted v 600 Oersted. 2:1 ratio But, ... 3.5" "720K" is about 600 Oersted, and "1.4M" is about 750 Oersted. 1.25:1 ratio Although you are still dealing with wrong coercivity, it is much less wrong than that of the 5.25". Therefore, 1.4M would not be different enough to prevent playing and some non-critical testing. However, try to get the right disks wonce you are using them for anything that matters. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 17:37:52 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <20070603152815.U45414@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > What I would really like to do is find some way of connecting a 3.5" disk > drive to the MITS hard sectored controller card set. This would give me > the 300 or so K and allow me to run MITS basic off of the disk. Do you > know anything about how to do that? Is it possible? Maybe with a PLD to > deal with soft/hard sectored stuff? Can you modify the 3.5" drive to give pulses at various additional points in its rotation? > I have not investigated anything yet so I am not sure what it would > take. If its possible I'm sure I could get it done. I think that it would be easier to stick with the soft-sector controller. First, get it working with 8" (about 250K) Then put in a 5.25" 1.2M drive and lie to the machine and say it's 8" (1.2M was designed for doing that) Then put in a 3.5" drive and continue the lie. To minimize the lie, use a 3.5" that can be jumpered for 360 RPM OK, you've got over 200K. AND, all of the "standard" CP/M 8"SSSD stuff will match up. Will the controller support double sided? or can it be modified for it? If so, you can get over 400K. Now put a 300RPM drive in. Modify the BIOS to support 80 track 5.25" and tell the machine that that is what it has. The virtual 8" will have over 400K, and the virtual 5.25" 80 track will have between 300 and 400K depending on format choices. All without any significant hardware issues. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 17:43:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:43:44 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: References: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 2, 7 07:42:25 pm, Message-ID: <4662E1B0.29790.111FDDFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 21:56, Tony Duell wrote: > I'll go along with that. I have one, and I use it a lot more than my > fancier RS232 test gear (like a Tekky datavoms terst). It's so easy just > to plug in the LED tester and see (as you said) which pin the thing is > transmitting on, which handshake lines is seems to be driving, and so on. > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > fine ever since. Add to that the little RS-232 "patch boxes"--one male, one female DB- 25 and a PCB in between with pads for each conductor and a hood that covers the whole works. I have several pre-wired and labeled with things like "null modem" "crossover", etc. I even have one labeled "Laplink parallel". Get enough of these and all you need are straight-through cables--and maybe a gender changer or two. No fooling around looking at a cable and saying "I wonder what this is for..." Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 17:44:20 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 15:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> Message-ID: <20070603154123.X45414@shell.lmi.net> > >> N = 1; > >> A[N++] = N++; On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, davis wrote: > Wow! Having used all the compilers mentioned in this thread, I would > have assumed a[1]=1 since the post incs > *should not* happen until after the ; I'm missing the ambiguity, > although hard rules for post inc were fuzzy back then. (70's-80's) Post incs not happening until after th ';' would be a reasonable way to implement it. BUT, K&R did not specify that. The post incs can be done any time after the value of N is fetched for evaluation until after the ';'. That is left as a decision for the compiler author to do in whatever way they want to implement it. Also, should we assume that N will be incremented twice? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 3 17:51:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 18:51:46 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> On Jun 3, 2007, at 2:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st >> century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear >> regulators? >> >> Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. > > Al, I confess to not having a good handle on this matter of what's > "vintage" and what's not. I was looking at 78xx linear regulators as > being "authentic". There's nothing "authentic" or even remotely elegant about 78xx regulators in my opinion. They're a current product, have been for decades, and probably will be for another two decades. > I mean, why bother with S-100 at all? There are > plenty of better busses now, right? "Better" is subjective...Better for what application? If you're designing a small system for, say, industrial automation, do you really want the expense and extreme complexity of something like PCI or VME? Having done PCI interfacing with an FPGA, I can say that getting something working on an S-100 bus involves a whole lot less hair pulling. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 3 18:07:36 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 00:07:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <354757.45701.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> As I understand it, you used to get banned from eBay if you got say 3 "unpaid item strikes". I got one once when I was bidding on and winning too many items. At that time all my eBay emails went to a second account which i forgot to check until about a month later! :( I had simply forgotten to pay for one of the items. I'm glad everything is sorted now though (see his last message in this thread). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Richard wrote: I purchased a Qume QVT-101 terminal on ebay. I asked the seller how it would be packed for shipment. They didn't respond. I asked again. They didn't respond. I asked a third time, they responded "It will be shipped the usual way". I responded that since I've never purchased anything from them before that this doesn't answer my questions about how the item will be shipped. I don't want to receive damaged terminals from ebay anymore. I explained this to the seller. Instead of answering my simple question and reassuring me that it will be properly shippe, they just immediately open an ebay dispute on me and then have turned it into an "unpaid item strike". I've appealed the strike with ebay, but I doubt I'll get any love from them. So my question is -- what does this mean for me? Is it just listed as harsh negative feedback? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 3 18:10:14 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 19:10:14 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <0B3772CB-63BC-42B4-BCF8-8C8E5003179B@neurotica.com> On Jun 3, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Grant Stockly wrote: >> That's a start. >> But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts. >> Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason. >> I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk. >> It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design >> I'm working on. >> Only if there's enough people interested of course. > > A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 > slots at a production quantity of 50. What are you basing this on? Have the connectors become unobtainable or something? PCB fab costs won't be anywhere near that high. (assuming you're talking about $250/ea) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 18:19:31 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 19:19:31 -0400 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46634C83.2070806@comcast.net> Grant, I think this is a cool idea. I'd like to help out in any way I can. Either with the design, schematics, etc. =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ cruising in cyberspace with no brakes ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Grant Stockly wrote: > >> The "media type" hole on a 1.4M? >> There exist some drives that ignore the "media type" hole, pqrticularly >> many/most? of the ones that IBM used in the PS/2s. They rely on the >> disk >> controller board to tell them when to go to reduced current. >> >> or the index hole on a 5.25"? > > The type hole on a 1.4M disk. > >> Did 1.4 support the DSK option of STAT? It gives some more info >> about the >> format. >> If so, try >> B: >> A:STAT DSK: > > No, but I did find a program: > > TARBELL MINI-FLOPPY DIAGNOSTIC OF 8-1-80 > STANDARD VERSION 1.8 > 40 TRACKS 18 SECTORS > >> \Most PC floppy controllers will not handle FM/Single density. Use >> Dave's >> test program on your PC to see if you have a chance. > > What I would really like to do is find some way of connecting a 3.5" > disk drive to the MITS hard sectored controller card set. This would > give me the 300 or so K and allow me to run MITS basic off of the > disk. Do you know anything about how to do that? Is it possible? > Maybe with a PLD to deal with soft/hard sectored stuff? > > I have not investigated anything yet so I am not sure what it would > take. If its possible I'm sure I could get it done. > > Grant > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 18:20:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:20:12 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com>, <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> Message-ID: <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 15:02, davis wrote: > I'm missing the ambiguity, although hard rules for post inc were > fuzzy back then. (70's-80's) In Sroustrup, x++ is stated to be evaluated as: t = x; x += 1; t; where t signifies a temporary. In other words, the ++ increment is performed at its occurrence within the statement, not after the remainder of the statement has been evaluated. So, in n=1; a[n++] = n++; all we know is that n will be incremented to 2 then to 3. But which side of the assignment gets incremented first? That's unspecified. A similar conundrum is: int f( int, int, int); n=1; f(++n, ++n, ++n); What gets passed to f? Why? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 18:35:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:35:07 -0600 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:17:35 -0400. <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <200706021417.36077.rtellason at verizon.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > On Thursday 31 May 2007 17:56, Rick Bensene wrote: > > =A0It has a DB-25 RS-232 connector apparently for hooking up to a compu= > ter, > > =A0but I don't know if it's wired as DTE or DCE. > > Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female conne= > ctors=20 > on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. I found mine thro= > ugh=20 > some surplus outfit years ago at about half the price, and find it=20 > invalualble for answering questions like this... I just picked up one of these off ebay recently for like $5. It has a nice little character chart for EBCDIC, ASCII and baudot, does current loop as well as RS-232 and has a cyclic character generator to create a repeating cycle of test characters. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 19:11:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:11:47 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2007 at 18:51, Dave McGuire wrote: >> There's nothing "authentic" or even remotely elegant about 78xx > regulators in my opinion. They're a current product, have been for > decades, and probably will be for another two decades. "Authentic"--yes. They were on almost all original S-100 boards. Which was my point. There are lots of great regulators now-- particularly the buck/boost models, but they wouldn't be "authentic" to the S-100 era. > "Better" is subjective...Better for what application? If you're > designing a small system for, say, industrial automation, do you > really want the expense and extreme complexity of something like PCI > or VME? At the time of the S-100 bus, there was already a better bus-- Multibus. It outlived S-100 by a very long time. If you want simple, try STD bus. But then, even ISA/PC-104 will do just fine for S-100 speeds. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Jun 3 19:41:47 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 01:41:47 +0100 Subject: Anyone for a RELLY expensive 11/780 (UK)??!! References: <465F4A65.3070401@machineroom.info><021301c7a4bc$3a65b760$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <001201c7a641$22833e20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > As far as I can tell from the crappy, low resolution pictures >he's got, it probably isn't missing any boards. I've never seen the inside of an 11/780, and as you say, the pictures are terrible.... TTFN - Pete. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 19:48:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:48:00 -0600 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Jun 2007 00:07:36 +0100. <354757.45701.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <354757.45701.qm at web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, Andrew Burton writes: > I'm glad everything is sorted now though [...] Well the seller is still being an asshole and refusing to answer a simple question about how the item would be shipped. He says he's going to relist it and stop wasting his time with me because I'm "playing games". Some people love to do things the hard way! He's wasted much more time dicking around trying to make a dispute out of this instead of just answering the question I posed to him after the sale completed. So now I know what an "unpaid strike" means. Still, I'd think that if you get one account cancelled because of unpaid strikes, you just open a new account, right? Yeah, you have to start your reputation all over again, but it seems that sellers don't care about a buyer's reputation -- they care about the buyer's money. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spc at conman.org Sun Jun 3 20:55:02 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 21:55:02 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070604015502.GB15693@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 3 Jun 2007 at 15:02, davis wrote: > > A similar conundrum is: > > int f( int, int, int); > > n=1; > f(++n, ++n, ++n); > > What gets passed to f? Why? Well, "++n" is more defined than "n++" is, and basically, pre-increment MUST happen before the value is used, so in this fragment, n will have three distinct values. As to what gets passed to f()? That's easy: n = 1; f(++n, ++n, ++n); is the same as f(4,3,2); That's because function parameters are evaluated right to left. The reason for that is due to the way early (and current) compilers were constructed and the need to support variable argument functions like printf() (it's a lot easier to find the first argument if you push them right to left, than left to right). -spc (Who avoids such bletcherous code) From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 21:26:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:26:16 -0400 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46637848.3020103@gmail.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > I am beginning to wonder if everybody is talking and nobody is > listening. We know that. You're not listening. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 21:39:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:39:51 -0400 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46637B77.4020700@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > I purchased a Qume QVT-101 terminal on ebay. I asked the seller how > it would be packed for shipment. They didn't respond. I asked again. > They didn't respond. I asked a third time, they responded "It will be > shipped the usual way". I responded that since I've never purchased > anything from them before that this doesn't answer my questions about > how the item will be shipped. I don't want to receive damaged > terminals from ebay anymore. I explained this to the seller. Instead > of answering my simple question and reassuring me that it will be > properly shippe, they just immediately open an ebay dispute on me and > then have turned it into an "unpaid item strike". I've appealed the > strike with ebay, but I doubt I'll get any love from them. > > So my question is -- what does this mean for me? Is it just listed as > harsh negative feedback? If you get three within a certain amount of time (180 days?) you get dropped. Usually no biggie. Peace... Sridhar From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Jun 3 22:11:30 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:11:30 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070604015502.GB15693@brevard.conman.org> References: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> <20070604015502.GB15693@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200706040311.l543BVgV014251@mail.itm-inst.com> At 09:55 PM 6/3/2007, Sean Conner wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > On 3 Jun 2007 at 15:02, davis wrote: > > > > A similar conundrum is: > > > > int f( int, int, int); > > > > n=1; > > f(++n, ++n, ++n); > > > > What gets passed to f? Why? > > Well, "++n" is more defined than "n++" is, and basically, pre-increment >MUST happen before the value is used, so in this fragment, n will have >three >distinct values. When did list this turn into comp.lang.c? > As to what gets passed to f()? That's easy: > > n = 1; > f(++n, ++n, ++n); > > is the same as > > f(4,3,2); Sorry, that's not correct. Take this program: #include #include void f(int a, int b, int c) { printf("%d %d %d\n", a, b, c); } main (int argc, char * argv[]) { int n = 1; f(++n, ++n, ++n); exit (0); } I compiled it using gcc. What comes out? 4 4 4 That's completely consistent with the standard. Any set of three numbers from 1 to 4 is arguably correct. The only thing that's guaranteed by "f(++n,++n,++n)" is that after the ";" n is incremented by 3. -Rick From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 4 00:24:32 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 01:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070603154123.X45414@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com> <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> <20070603154123.X45414@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200706040527.BAA00546@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> A[N++] = N++; > Post incs not happening until after th ';' would be a reasonable way > to implement it. BUT, K&R did not specify that. The post incs can > be done any time after the value of N is fetched for evaluation until > after the ';'. Not even - they can be done before the value is fetched, even, provided the fetched value is adjusted to compensate. > Also, should we assume that N will be incremented twice? I don't think K&R specified (ICBW; it's been a while since I read K&R v1). ANSI explicitly specifies that the resulting behaviour is undefined, which means it may be anything at all that the compiler is capable of arranging for; it need not even include any attempt to *read* N, much less increment it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 4 00:27:59 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 01:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com>, <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706040534.BAA00605@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > In Sroustrup, x++ is stated to be evaluated as: > t = x; > x += 1; > t; > where t signifies a temporary. If we're talking about C (which I thought we were), Stroustrup is not authoritative. The description you give is a reasonable working approximation, but is inexact; the way it places the increment at a specific time is one of the ways it is inexact. > In other words, the ++ increment is performed at its occurrence > within the statement, not after the remainder of the statement has > been evaluated. Yes, if that were how ++ were defined, that would be how it would be done. But it's not. > A similar conundrum is: > int f( int, int, int); > n=1; > f(++n, ++n, ++n); > What gets passed to f? Why? Anything or nothing - it is possible that f is not even called. Why? Because there is no sequence point between the evaluation of different arguments, so n is being incremented more than once without an intervening sequence point. This places it in "undefined behaviour" territory; the result may be anything whatsoever that the compiler is capable of arranging for. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 4 00:35:18 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 01:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <20070604015502.GB15693@brevard.conman.org> References: <46633A58.9090609@saw.net> <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com> <20070604015502.GB15693@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200706040539.BAA00641@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...] > [...] > That's because function parameters are evaluated right to left. Not necessarily. They may be, but they also may be evaluated left to right, or in some other order - or even in no order at all; it's possible for them to be evaluated in parallel (on hardware where that's possible) or interleaved. Also, ++n does not necessarily mean that the increment happens before the value is fetched. The value resulting from ++n is the value after the increment, yes (assuming the increment actually happens - when we're in "undefined behaviour" territory, it might not). But there is no guarantee that this value is written to n (or anywhere else) until the next sequence point. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 15:23:22 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 21:23:22 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F92@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Your server (the VAX 4000-200) does have to be running DECnet. Er no it doesn't and isn't. I attended a 1976 DEC engineering meeting where this was discussed. It just my personal memory has a long access time. Download and run was around long before Decnet was thought of. There's no Decnet or any other normal network involved. I am also beginning to suspect that the whole cluster thing is another GRH (Giant Red Herring) Whats actually happening is an old diagnostic tool is being used to download and run a program on a remote system to exclude the disk drives from the test. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 03 June 2007 17:31 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Repairing the damage. >I am beginning to wonder if everybody is talking and nobody is >listening. >The target machine is not running anything except low level firmware That's how it works. >The server has to respond to the request (Remember No Decnet and No >Tcpip available) somehow or other. Your server (the VAX 4000-200) does have to be running DECnet. MOP is not technically part of DECnet but the MOP-handling software is started as part of DECnet. (Actually, there is a another way with more recent versions of OpenVMS, using the LANACP stuff but I assume you haven't done this). Maybe I've missed a message or to, but does your VAX 4000-200 have DECnet (either Phase IV or DECnet-Plus) installed and running? It would be very unusual if it didn't, but it is possible to install without it. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 13:40:21 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:40:21 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ200JXSP6C1LED@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:24:30 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Hi > 1. Where did you see all these crates. (I'm in the UK) I'm not, New England USA. > 2. Nice shiny new boards in old back planes ? Once I run an old backplane through a wash it's pretty good looking. Whats really needed is smaller backplanes in the range of 8 to 12 slots as most S100 crates wer 18-22 and large. Of course you also need the power supply(s) and an enclosure. So an old crate that may be missing boards is actually pretty handy. Allison >Rod > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison >Sent: 03 June 2007 12:34 >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > >> >>Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available >> From: "Rod Smallwood" >> Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:52:27 +0100 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >> >> >>Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. >>Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! >> >>Rod Smallwood > >There are plenty of S100 crates around usually with boards missing or damaged. >That is rarely a problem, Working bords to fill it or proto on are. > >Allison > > > >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >>[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason >>Sent: 02 June 2007 21:10 >>To: CCTECH >>Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available >> >>On Saturday 02 June 2007 10:26, Dan wrote: >>> I've been working on a pcb design for a S-100 prototype board. I >>> noticed a few people on the forums asking about this. I decided to >>> make this since this is a big hobby of mine too(member-MARCH club). I >>> based this design on a old prototype board I kept back from the S-100 >>> days. It's made by Electronic Control Technology. >>> >>> Here's a link to the picture >>> http://pghvintage.home.comcast.net/p...otypeboard.jpg >>> >> p >>> g> >>> >>> There were several different styles made before--each with their own >>> advantages. This prototype board(in pic) has the rows in a vertical >>> pattern to allow 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. It also accommodates >>> 2 voltage regulators. Then there were some which only had a grid of >>> solder pads to allow any arrangement of 300mil and 600mil DIP packages. >>> >>> I like to ask everyone what their preference might be in the >>> arrangement of the solder pads, eg: vertical rows, horizontal rows, >>> grid, etc. If I get enough feedback, I can include 2 different styles. >>> It's not much work to alter the design. I have a panel setup to >>> include 2 pcb designs at the moment, and it can be any 2 kinds of >>> S-100 designs. In the future, I like to setup a bigger panel to >>> include several more S-100 designs. >>> >>> Since this is mainly a hobby for me, I thought I might help out and >>> offer this service. I'm designing this from my home workshop and >>> intend to make this an affordable hobby. In case anyone is >>> interested, with enough orders(minimum 30) then I can offer these for only $15 each. >> >>Hmm, good question! >> >>I have currently only two S-100 systems, a Cromemco System 3 with problems in the PersSci drive. The floppy that was in the drive when I got it had been in there and run so long that you could see clearly through the track zero location. :-) I have some data on this stuff somewhere, and it appears that they're using incandescent bulbs for such stuff as index sensors and such? And the Imsai, here. >> >>Got a Vector S-100 backplane too, that I've started to build, only I >>lack a few parts. Most importantly the S-100 connectors themselves. >>:-( >> >>I also have a couple of prototyping cards, I *think* they're Vector as well, but haven't done anything with 'em yet to come up with a preference. I guess vertical rows makes more sense in terms of air flow for heat dissipation? >>That for the heatsinks for sure, though a lot of systems I saw mention of later on in the popular period for S-100 seemed to be inclined to put a regulated switching power supply in place and simply jumper across the regulator positions. I dunno, to me the distributed approach always made a lot of sense. >> >>-- >>Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >>- >>Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. >>--James M Dakin >> >> >> > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 13:43:54 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:43:54 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ2005PXPC90LY1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 15:20:47 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Hi > Thanks for the positive feed back. Needless to say like all standards >S100 had different versions. >For example the Northstar Horizion had some active components on the >mother board. The fact that the mother board had IO on it was a savings of a card or two but made NO difference to S100 standards. The variation of standards were around timing, use of some specific pins, how memory extension (>64k) was done and the troublesome DMA. >However if we look at a basic passive (other than power) back plane. >What are the potential problems? Firstly the connectors are they >available? They had two rows of fifty connections. >Spacing pin to pin .125in. Mother board was thicker than the usual 1/16 >in for rigidity possibily 3/32 in. >Card guides pretty standard but how high? Then the metalwork supporting >the card guides. Generally backplanes were passive and interchangeable excluding mechanical differences that were generally small. Some however included termination and that was a plus as S100 can ring badly. >Possible Parts List > >1. Double sided S100 motherboard (Say twelve slots) >2. Aluminium base plate drilled for backplane and card guide >supports. >3. Twelve double sided 2x50 edge connectors. >4. Card guide support frame. >5. Twenty four card guides. >6. Nuts, bolts and screws etc. An outercase.. Power supplies in the case. Fans! Lots of fans! Allison >Rod Smallwood > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan >Sent: 03 June 2007 12:59 >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > >Rod, > >I see what you mean. I'm just starting off small right now since it's >mainly a hobby. It's mostly to support the existing vintage computers >out there. I really don't know what the demand there is for a new S-100 >chassis. I suppose that might be a good kit to build with the right >parts. I can look into this. > >=Dan > >[ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] > > > >Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage >with back plane and PSU. >> Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 3 13:51:17 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:51:17 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ2005MAPOK0LZ1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 11:39:32 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Al Kossow wrote: >> >> If you are doing a design with on-board regulators in the 21st >> century, why not use integrated switching rather than linear >> regulators? >> >> Heat dissipation will be MUCH lower if you do this. the real problem was NOT the heat from the regulators but the heat from the rest of the board. 8K of 2102 memory produces a lot of heat and a box with 8 of them needed a good set of fans to move that heat. FYI: even the 2102LP parts were around 50mA each (512 *.05=25.6W) and the more common parts were around 80-100mA. Add regulators and that could easily total 40-60W of heat. Add a few IO, Floppy card and CPU and now your cooking. If the drives are in the box add fans accoringly. Dont forget the average 8V bus PSU was (in a decent box) rated to deliver that voltage at 25A (125W of 5V alone). Some boxes like the Compupro and Intergrand had CVCC transformers that typically ran hot as well. So the average S100 grate needed to move between 100 for a small system to as much as 500W of heat. >True, but with the advent modern chips like CMOS I see that >power consumption less of a problem. Is the proto-board >for 8 bit S-100 or 16 bit S-100 as I remember some where the buss >was upgraded for 16 bit processors? ( Can you say INTEL ? ) >If it where not for that fact, having De-codeing and buffer chips >laid out as that would save some space rather than in the pro-type >area. CMOS will help, denser memories (even back then) really help. Allison > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 18:24:25 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 00:24:25 +0100 Subject: Cluster Booting - What they dont tell you. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F93@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi As with many things the answer is very simple. The key is a program called LANCP invoked as $MCR LANCP on the boot server. It allows you to associate a name say VAX300 with a MAC address and add it to a database. It also allows you to set the name of the file to download and the root of the system. So far so good.... Now for the other half of the puzzle. How does the boot server listen for requests? Well there's an executable program call LANACP that is invoked by running LAN$STARTUP.COM Once running it services boot requests from across the network. It uses the data from the data base maintained by LANCP. It gives progress messages when a Node tries to boot. Once you have done that then, from the target system type >>>Boot EZA0: (ie the ethernet device on the target system) Lo and behold it downloads the file. It may well be the case that clusters use this system to boot satellite systems but you do not have to be a cluster to use it. We are not trying to make a cluster here. We are trying to boot a system that has empty disk drives. When I worked at DEC we were always warned that whilst .com files were very powerful things never to use them unless we understood what every line did. Further more each command line should be tested by entering it manually. I can now download a file to a target system just by typing Boot EZA0 at the >>> prompt. No Decnet, No Tcpip, No Clusters. The firmware on a VAX is independent of operating systems be they System or Network. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 03 June 2007 19:52 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Cluster Booting - What they dont tell you. Rod Smallwood wrote: > We can rule out @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG_LAN which expects Decnet > and screw's up TCPWARE. > > I'm out of ideas at this point. > Lessons > > 1. Never run a .COM file before looking to see what it does. cluster_config*_LAN*.com? You aren't meant to run that are you? At least, I've never done it that way. I've just attached a sample of invoking @SYS$MANAGER:CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM on my VAX. If you never at least entered the MAC address of your satellite VAX then you definitely ran the wrong procedure! I thought you had V6.2 - the LANACP stuff popped in V7 sometime, for those who didn't want to install DECnet-Plus. I would expect the procedure (if you run the right one) to do the right thing (but I don't have a VAX with that config around to check right now). One other thing: > DEFINE NODE VAX300/ADDRESS=08-00-2B-18-BB-D0/FILE=APB_061.EXE Before you go to far down this path, this is used to boot an Alpha from an InfoServer (or at least that's what I think it is, my infoserver isn't in use right now). So I don't think this is what you want. CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM should as a few questions, set a bunch of stuff up and then wait for you to boot your VAX 4000-300. There's no way that you are expected to delve this deep into this stuff if you run the right procedure. Antonio KRAKAR::SYSTEM> @cluster_config Cluster Configuration Procedure Executing on a VAX System This system is running DECnet-Plus. DECnet will be used for MOP downline loading. To ensure that this procedure is executing with the required privileges, invoke it from the system manager's account. Enter a "?" for help at any prompt. If you are familiar with the execution of this procedure, you may want to mute extra notes and explanations by invoking it with "@CLUSTER_CONFIG BRIEF". KRAKAR is a VAX system and currently a member of a cluster so the following functions can be performed: MAIN MENU 1. ADD a VAX node to the cluster. 2. REMOVE a node from the cluster. 3. CHANGE a cluster member's characteristics. 4. CREATE a duplicate system disk for KRAKAR. 5. MAKE a directory structure for a new root on a system disk. 6. DELETE a root from a system disk. 7. EXIT from this procedure. Enter choice [1]: This ADD function will add a new VAX node to the cluster. WARNING: If the node being added is a voting member, EXPECTED_VOTES for every cluster member must be adjusted. For complete instructions check the section on configuring a cluster in the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. CAUTION: If this cluster is running with multiple system disks and common system files will be used, please, do not proceed unless appropriate logical names are defined for cluster common files in SYLOGICALS.COM. For instructions, refer to the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. Do you want to continue [N]? y For additional networking information, please refer to the DECnet-Plus Network Management manual. What is the node's DECnet fullname? LOCAL:.TEST What is the SCS node name for this node [TEST]? Do you want to define a DECnet synonym [Y]? What is the synonym name for this node [TEST]? What is the MOP service client name for this node [TEST]? What is the node's DECnet Phase IV address? 1.98 Will TEST be a satellite [Y]? WARNING: When the new node is a satellite, the network databases on KRAKAR are updated by this procedure. You must see to it that the network databases on all other cluster members are updated. On every boot node that may provide MOP service to the new satellite, also make certain SYS$MANAGER:NET$LOGICALS.COM contains the command: $ DEFINE NET$STARTUP_MOP TRUE For help, refer to the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. Does TEST need to be registered in the namespace [N]? Verifying circuits in network database... What is the Cluster Alias fullname? Note: KRAKAR has 1 LAN circuit(s) in the ON state, with service enabled. This procedure will establish circuit CSMACD-0 for KRAKAR's booting of TEST. What is TEST's LAN adapter hardware address? 08-00-2b-00-00-01 This procedure will now ask you for the device name of TEST's system root. The default device name (DISK$OPENVMS071:) is the logical volume name of SYS$SYSDEVICE:. What is the device name for TEST's system root [default DISK$OPENVMS071:]? What is the name of TEST's system root [SYS10]? Allow conversational bootstraps on TEST [N]? The following workstation windowing options are available: 1. No workstation software 2. DECwindows Workstation Software 3. VWS Workstation Software (not installed) Enter choice [1]: Creating directory tree SYS10 ... %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %SET-I-ENTERED, $1$DKA0:<000000>VMS$COMMON.DIR;1 entered as $1$DKA0:SYSCO MMON.DIR; %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created %CREATE-I-CREATED, $1$DKA0: created System root SYS10 created Will TEST be a disk server [N]? Updating network database... On all other boot nodes which may provide MOP DLL service to TEST, execute the following command: $ @SYS$MANAGER:NET$CONFIGURE "ALS_CONFIGURE" "ADD_CLIENT" - _$ "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]clu20200205.tmp3" "TEST" "08-00-2B-00-00-01" "1. 98" - _$ "DISK$OPENVMS071:" Configuration last run by SYSTEM on 28-JAN-1999 10:11:34.08 Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.760+01:00Iinf Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.860+01:00Iinf Characteristics Addresses = { 08-00-2B-00-00-01 , AA-00-04-00-62-04 (1.98) } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.870+01:00Iinf Characteristics Tertiary Loader = { sys$system:tertiary_vmb.exe } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.880+01:00Iinf Characteristics System Image = { "@net$niscs_laa(DISK$OPENVMS071:)" } Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.890+01:00Iinf Characteristics Verification = '0000000000000000'H Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.890+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Host Name = KRAKAR Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.900+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Host Address = 1.150 Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.910+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Client Name = TEST Node 0 MOP Client TEST at 2007-06-01-19:36:34.910+01:00Iinf Characteristics Phase IV Client Address = 1.98 %NET$CONFIGURE-I-MODCHECKSUM, checksumming NCL management scripts modified by NE T$CONFIGURE DELETE SYS$SPECIFIC:[SYSEXE]NET$CHECKSUM_NCL_LOCAL_SAVED.DAT;12 ? [N]: y DELETE SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]NET$CHECKSUM_NCL_COMMON_SAVED.DAT;12 ? [N]: a %PURGE-I-NOFILPURG, no files purged sys$manager:net$dns_clerk_startup.ncl changed to use the new default namespace. Your default namespace nickname is LOCAL. Your default namespace NSCTS is 08-00-2B-0D-C0-9D-5F-FA-A9-88-43-46-95-00. Clearing old local namespace entries prior to loading new entries Loading new local namespace node name entries Saving the new local namespace contents Maximum number of node names that can be loaded: 190 Number of node names that are currently loaded: 4 %NET$CONFIGURE-I-CONFIGCOMPLETED, DECnet-Plus for OpenVMS configuration complete d Size of pagefile for TEST [RETURN for AUTOGEN sizing]? A temporary pagefile will be created until resizing by AUTOGEN. The default size below is arbitrary and may or may not be appropriate. Size of temporary pagefile [10000]? Size of swap file for TEST [RETURN for AUTOGEN sizing]? A temporary swap file will be created until resizing by AUTOGEN. The default size below is arbitrary and may or may not be appropriate. Size of temporary swap file [8000]? Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? ERROR: Invalid response. Please enter (Y,N or ?). Will a local disk on TEST be used for paging and swapping (Y/N)? y Does TEST have any RFxx disks [N]? y Enter a value for TEST's ALLOCLASS parameter [1]: This procedure will now wait until TEST is a member of the cluster. Once TEST joins the cluster, this procedure will ask you which local disk it can use for paging and swapping. Please boot TEST now. Make sure the default boot device is set to be the LAN device appropriate for the satellite. See the hardware user manual or the console help command for instructions to do this. Waiting for TEST to boot... Waiting for TEST to boot... From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 3 20:29:46 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 02:29:46 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F94@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> >On top of that, S100 motherboards are still fairly easy to find. If anyone's >interested, I'll have some ready for sale in a couple weeks. And how much will they cost ? Populated? Whats included? How many slots? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith Sent: 03 June 2007 21:36 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 slots > at a production quantity of 50. On top of that, S100 motherboards are still fairly easy to find. If anyone's interested, I'll have some ready for sale in a couple weeks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 3 23:09:16 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 21:09:16 -0700 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? Message-ID: <4663906C.CB4CA118@rain.org> If you are listed as the buyer, you should still be able to leave appropriate feedback. Just be aware that the ebay system supports retalitory feedback by the other party even though Ebay officially disallows it (they lie consistantly.) Generally, you can avoid retalitory feedback by just not leaving feedback. The other way is to "snipe" the feedback at the 60 day limit of when you can leave feedback (or so I've been told.) > From: Richard > > Well the seller is still being an asshole and refusing to answer a > simple question about how the item would be shipped. He says he's > going to relist it and stop wasting his time with me because I'm > "playing games". Some people love to do things the hard way! He's > wasted much more time dicking around trying to make a dispute out of > this instead of just answering the question I posed to him after the > sale completed. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jun 4 01:40:44 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 23:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F94@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F94@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >On top of that, S100 motherboards are still fairly easy to find. If > anyone's >interested, I'll have some ready for sale in a couple weeks. > > And how much will they cost ? > Populated? > Whats included? > How many slots? I'm not sure how much they'll cost. Most of them are 12-slot boards, mostly Morrow Wunderbuss models of one sort or another. There's a big CompuPro chassis with 20-slot board and power supply. I also have a bunch of assorted cards. With summer approaching, I'll likely have more time to sell off this stuff. Oh, and those of you who wanted those 8-inch drives, I still have your names. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 01:41:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:41:56 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <200706040534.BAA00605@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200706010319.l513JBxo013948@floodgap.com>, <4662EA3C.6333.114141E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <200706040534.BAA00605@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <466351C4.3203.12D5AA39@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 1:27, der Mouse wrote: > This places it in "undefined behaviour" territory; the result may be > anything whatsoever that the compiler is capable of arranging for. Just so--and this is one of dmr's original "what does it do?" examples from over 20 years ago. The "correct" answer is that "it's not possible to say without implementation-specific information." What's always rankled my sense of the Way Things Ought To Be is that the statement isn't syntactically illegal. It's just impossible to say for certain what it does. FWIW, both MS 32-bit and 16-bit C generates f(4,4,4). Change the prefix ++ to a postfix ++ and the two diverge: MS 32-bit generates f(1,1,1), but 16-bit generates f(3,2,1). Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 4 01:50:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 02:50:15 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jun 3, 2007, at 8:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> There's nothing "authentic" or even remotely elegant about 78xx > >> regulators in my opinion. They're a current product, have been for >> decades, and probably will be for another two decades. > > "Authentic"--yes. They were on almost all original S-100 boards. Yes, that's why I quoted "authentic". There's nothing (IMO) about the presence or absence of a 7805 that makes an S-100 board any more or less authentic...that's the point I was trying to get across. > Which was my point. There are lots of great regulators now-- > particularly the buck/boost models, but they wouldn't be "authentic" > to the S-100 era. Very true. >> "Better" is subjective...Better for what application? If you're >> designing a small system for, say, industrial automation, do you >> really want the expense and extreme complexity of something like PCI >> or VME? > > At the time of the S-100 bus, there was already a better bus-- > Multibus. It outlived S-100 by a very long time. > > If you want simple, try STD bus. But then, even ISA/PC-104 will do > just fine for S-100 speeds. Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products is twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking into account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related stuff. I wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been developed sooner? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 02:28:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 03:28:25 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4663BF19.7080004@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products is > twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking into > account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related stuff. I > wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been developed sooner? I don't have any experience from which to draw when trying to come up with a number for the amount of S-100 product out there, but I can say without hesitation that there is a metric buttload of STD-bus stuff out there, but only in specific arenas. You can get an STD-bus board (or boardset) to do pretty much anything you can think of in industrial control/manufacturing robotics. It's a very popular bus in that arena. Peace... Sridhar From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 02:30:55 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 02:30:55 -0500 Subject: DEC PC's and parts Message-ID: <624966d60706040030h748a8c4q59ba3bfd3c0a1e85@mail.gmail.com> I have 6 or more DEC PC's and parts which are really getting in my way. Any interest before I part them out? Feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul Anderson > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 4 03:00:57 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:00:57 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 03 Jun 2007 21:56:51 BST." Message-ID: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: [RE RS232 tester] > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > fine ever since. http://www.cpc.co.uk item number CS11237 4.88+VAT if you need replacement, I've just ordered one this weekend... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Jun 4 04:24:10 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 05:24:10 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net> I did a cost projection for the motherboard in my Imsai 8080 This is a 22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062" thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz copper. The copper thickness might be alittle more, but I couldn't see mentioned in the manual. This is only for a batch order--eg, pre-orders only (20x)., as I don't inventory bulk parts. With a batch order of 20 units, including shipping costs, it's only $35 each. Then with the 22x S-100 connectors, at $5 each, an additional $110. The kit would be $145, minus the nuts n bolts(that's easy to find) I might put this on my To-Do list. =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Grant Stockly wrote: > At 11:55 AM 6/3/2007, you wrote: > >> That's a start. >> But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts. >> Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason. >> I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk. >> It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design >> I'm working on. >> Only if there's enough people interested of course. > > A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 slots > at a production quantity of 50. > > > > From pdp11 at saccade.com Mon Jun 4 05:07:51 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 03:07:51 -0700 Subject: Properly "classic" digital cameras (and imaging) In-Reply-To: <004c01c7a31f$ee428900$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <465D56B8.25751.463D8AE6@cclist.sydex.com> <004c01c7a31f$ee428900$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706041008.l54A8Qk5086977@keith.ezwind.net> If you fudge "digital" camera to "electronic", my first goes back a bit further, to '91 or so. Canon offered something call the "Xapshot". It was a still video camera that stored the -analog- signal of a single video frame on a track of a small 1.5" microfloppy drive. It held 50 frames on one of those little floppies, though the picture quality degraded a bit on the inner tracks because the disk spun at a constant speed. You "uploaded" the photos by digitizing the image with a video card like the RasterOps 364. The little floppies gave the Xapshot one huge advantage over the actual digital cameras of the day - you could travel with it! The other "consumer" cameras of the era didn't have removable storage, and had to be emptied out at a computer after just a dozen pictures or so. The Xapshot did take color photos, but the quality was pretty grim, about 320x240 resolution accompanied by various analog video artifacts. It was a fun toy for the time, but I regret taking it on a European vacation in '92...all I have to show for the trip now is tiny, murky stills. A $50 35mm point 'n shoot would've done a much better job. Sony sold a similar still-video camera line called the "Mavica" (MAgnetic VIdeo CAmera). The Mavica line later morphed from still-video to true digital, storing the photos on 3.5" floppies. I no longer have the Xapshot...I sold it to a collector in the late '90s. Cheers, jp > > My oldest is not quite there--a Mustek VDC-300 from 1998.... > >That jogs my memory, my first digital camera was >a Mustek VDC-100. I bought it second hand in >1998 for ?50, it was already a couple of years old then. > >It was truly awful.... From pdp11 at saccade.com Mon Jun 4 05:30:54 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 03:30:54 -0700 Subject: DRAM camera sensor In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> References: <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <465C8D3A.6020502@pacbell.net> <465C698F.31935.429F2169@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200706041031.l54AVHPG088075@keith.ezwind.net> You might be thinking of "Build the first Low-cost All Solid State TV Camera!", by Walker, Garland & Melen, Popular Electronics, Feb '75 (just after the famous Altair issue). It looks like Michael Holley hasn't scanned it in yet. >I remember a document from the 80s that described how to take a DRAM >chip, decap it, and use it as a crude camera. I think I remember >something about a lens too. It might have been a joke... From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jun 4 08:22:21 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 08:22:21 -0500 Subject: DRAM camera sensor - BYTE/PE articals posted In-Reply-To: <200706041031.l54AVHPG088075@keith.ezwind.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070531123706.03134ae0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200706041225.l54CPN2O017235@hosting.monisys.ca> > You might be thinking of "Build the first Low-cost All Solid State TV > Camera!", by Walker, Garland & Melen, Popular Electronics, Feb '75 > (just after the famous Altair issue). > > It looks like Michael Holley hasn't scanned it in yet. > > >I remember a document from the 80s that described how to take a DRAM > >chip, decap it, and use it as a crude camera. I think I remember > >something about a lens too. It might have been a joke... For all those who have expressed interest, I have uploaded scans of the following documents to: www.dunfield.com/pub/index.htm Build the Micro D-CAM Solid State Video Camera / Byte Sep-Oct 83 Micron IS32 Optic RAM data sheet (used in above) Build Cyclops First all Solid-State TV camera for experimentors / Pop Elect. Feb 75 Regretably the first two are from rather poor photocopies (these issues are missing from my BYTE collection) - but are for the most part legible. These are in a temporary area, and will be gone when I need to reuse the space. Everyone/anyone is welcome to archive/post them as you see fit. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 07:34:35 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 08:34:35 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <20070602171434.P6937@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706021417.36077.rtellason@verizon.net> <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> <20070602171434.P6937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 6/2/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Radio shack used to sell a small tester with 25 pin male and female > > > connectors on each end, had something like 7 bicolor LEDs on it. > > Last time that I got one from RS, I opened it before using it, and was > amazed to find soldering significantly worse than MY soldering. > Once resoldered, it worked OK Agreed. Mine was a blobby mess inside when I got it - looked great after a bit of touch-up. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jun 4 07:33:45 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 13:33:45 +0100 Subject: 11/04 or 11/34 PSU free for collection (UK) Message-ID: <466406A9.9000307@dunnington.plus.com> I'm having a bit of a clear-out, in order to make enough room to work in :-) The first item I've found that I don't want is the power supply from an 11/04 or 11/34, DEC part no. 70-13323-00. This is the big black box that goes on the back of the BA11 enclosure, and includes the two fans, the cables, etc, but not the power regulator bricks (it has space for four). It was in working order last time I checked. It's very heavy, so pickup from York only (unless you really want to spend a fortune on carriage). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jun 4 08:39:02 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 08:39:02 -0500 Subject: N* Advantage Tech manuak scanned Message-ID: <200706041242.l54Cg4ZU021256@hosting.monisys.ca> For any North Star Advantage owners... I have scanned the complete NorthStar Advantage Technical manual and posted it to my site (look under the North Star Advantage listing). This is a BIG book, and a very large (30M PDF) scan. It contains full technical descriptions, schematics etc. for the North Star Advantage computer. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Jun 4 08:13:52 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:13:52 -0400 Subject: Repairing the damage. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F92@EDISERVER.EDICONS.l ocal> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F92@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706041314.l54DDscN015964@mail.itm-inst.com> At 04:23 PM 6/3/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >Your server (the VAX 4000-200) does have to be running DECnet. Er no it >doesn't and isn't. I attended a 1976 DEC engineering meeting where this >was discussed. It just my personal memory has a long access time. >Download and run was around long before Decnet was thought of. I'm not sure why I'm responding to this troll, but I can't resist. The server must be running a MOP listener. That's the protocol that the client uses when you boot the ethernet device. MOP is a DECnet protocol. For many versions of VMS, the way you get a MOP listener is to install DECnet. For VMS 7.0 and later, there's a separate MOP listener that provides just that part of DECnet. >There's no Decnet or any other normal network involved. Crap. You MUST have a network to run a Local Area VAXcluster. You know, a *Local Area Network*? LAVC booting uses DECnet to boot. You can't make any of this work without a LAN, without DECnet. I suppose you'll keep flailing around hoping that something will work, blaming others for your mistakes. Enjoy yourself. >I am also >beginning to suspect that the whole cluster thing is another GRH (Giant >Red Herring) Huh? Nope, if you followed the very detailed directions you've been given, you could diskless boot the server. You could then try to get a disk set up and booted. Not a red herring at all. >Whats actually happening is an old diagnostic tool is being >used to download and run a program on a remote system to exclude the >disk drives from the test. LANCP is not an "old diagnostic tool" it's actually fairly recent. Using CLUSTER_CONFIG as you're supposed to will use it to set up the client download. Did you try that? Probably not. -Rick From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 4 11:56:24 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 10:56:24 -0600 Subject: NorthStar Advantage "Graphics CP/M"? Message-ID: What is it? I didn't know the Northstar's had graphics capabilities. Ebay items # 140125262346 140125261472 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Jun 4 12:52:47 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:52:47 -0500 Subject: NorthStar Advantage "Graphics CP/M"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4664516F.2010600@pacbell.net> Richard wrote: > What is it? I didn't know the Northstar's had graphics capabilities. > > Ebay items # 140125262346 140125261472 The horizon didn't have graphics (it just had serial ports), but the advantage has dot addressable graphics (monochrome, 640x200 or 640x240 I think). From grant at stockly.com Mon Jun 4 13:21:34 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 10:21:34 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> At 01:24 AM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >I did a cost projection for the motherboard in my Imsai 8080 >This is a 22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062" thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz copper. >The copper thickness might be alittle more, but I couldn't see mentioned >in the manual. > >This is only for a batch order--eg, pre-orders only (20x)., as I don't >inventory bulk parts. >With a batch order of 20 units, including shipping costs, it's only $35 each. >Then with the 22x S-100 connectors, at $5 each, an additional $110. >The kit would be $145, minus the nuts n bolts(that's easy to find) > >I might put this on my To-Do list. Where do you get S-100 connectors for $5 or huge 1/8" PCBs for $35? I use Imagineering for PCBs and I can't get $35 a piece for 1/8 FR4 11x13" (being conservative) unless I order 50 with a 3 week lead time. I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part number digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from the company they are $17-$20. : ) I've heard horror stories from Todd Fisher about cheap sockets... Grant From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 13:37:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:37:52 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4663F990.21067.15651D4A@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 2:50, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, that's why I quoted "authentic". There's nothing (IMO) about > the presence or absence of a 7805 that makes an S-100 board any more > or less authentic...that's the point I was trying to get across. Well, I don't know much about the nuances of this collecting thing. Does replacement of 74LS logic with, say, 74HCT logic lower the value of a vintage object? > Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products is > twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking into > account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related stuff. I > wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been developed > sooner? That's an interesting question, considering the variety of boards possible using the Multibus daughterboard system. Given the long life of Multibus and its deployment in industrial systems (as well as some Sun hardware), I wonder if the total production volume of Multibus boards isn't greater than that of S-100. Yet Multibus sems to get very little notice from the vintage collectors. Really a shame, since MB is much more of a well-thought-out design. At Durango, we had an MDS-800, but we also went "on the cheap" and purchased a Multibus cage and cards, some floppies and a PSU and built our own MDS-compatible (wooden) box as a backup. Not nearly as pretty or expandable, but it booted from the same ISIS-II floppy as did the MDS. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 13:42:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:42:52 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com>, <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net>, <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4663FABC.22059.1569B727@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote: > I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part number > digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold > plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from > the company they are $17-$20. : ) I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin" for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly in high-humidity environments. Is this not true? Cheers, Chuck From CaptnZilog at aol.com Mon Jun 4 14:03:38 2007 From: CaptnZilog at aol.com (CaptnZilog at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 15:03:38 EDT Subject: who invented IDE? (Chuck Guzis) Message-ID: >In the beginning it was *interesting* working with different vendor >implementations of ATA. For example, Maxtor, initially swapped the >order of the words in the "total number of sectors" field in the >IDENTIFY command return. I remember back when 386's were over our "capital expense" limit ($1000) at work, we would piece together 386's for the engineers to get them the best machines. We were buying Conner 80MB drives at the time, so we built this guy a machine with a Conner-80MB in it, and a few months later he was running low on space and wanted another drive, so we bought *another* (same model) Conner-80MB. No matter what I tried, they would not work together either way around as master/slave. Looking at the model#, one was "rev-A" and one was "rev-B". We wound up throwing a Maxtor 80MB in with it - with *either* Conner drive and a Maxtor, it worked fine. Found it quite humorous that two drives from the same manufacturer wouldn't work together, but both worked fine with a competitors drive. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 14:08:45 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:08:45 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663FABC.22059.1569B727@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com>, <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net>, <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <4663FABC.22059.1569B727@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4664633D.7060107@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote: > >> I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part number >> digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold >> plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from >> the company they are $17-$20. : ) > > I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin" > for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be > galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly > in high-humidity environments. > > Is this not true? Only on the tin side. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 4 14:11:58 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 13:11:58 -0600 Subject: NorthStar Advantage "Graphics CP/M"? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:52:47 -0500. <4664516F.2010600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In article <4664516F.2010600 at pacbell.net>, Jim Battle writes: > The horizon didn't have graphics (it just had serial ports), but the > advantage has dot addressable graphics (monochrome, 640x200 or 640x240 I > think). Interesting! I see our old friend "computermkt" has one on ebay for only $800 plus another $55 for shipping. How common are the Advantage machines? It would be another nice milestone in personal computer graphics (old-computers.com says the Advantage came out in 1982, which makes it pretty significant historically). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jun 4 14:12:38 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 14:12:38 -0500 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday Message-ID: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a Symbolics model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all the needed cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two hard drives mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some software. Anyone would information please email me. Thanks John From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 14:34:01 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:34:01 -0400 Subject: who invented IDE? (Chuck Guzis) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46646929.7000509@gmail.com> CaptnZilog at aol.com wrote: > No matter what I tried, they would not work together either way around as > master/slave. Looking at the model#, one was "rev-A" and one was "rev-B". We > wound up throwing a Maxtor 80MB in with it - with *either* Conner drive and > a Maxtor, it worked fine. Found it quite humorous that two drives from the > same manufacturer wouldn't work together, but both worked fine with a > competitors drive. That doesn't surprise me. Back in the day, I had no end of trouble getting Conner drives (of various size -- mostly matched models) of the same revision to sit on a bus together and behave. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 14:39:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:39:35 -0400 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> References: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <46646A77.7030909@gmail.com> Keys wrote: > Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a > Symbolics model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all > the needed cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two > hard drives mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some > software. Anyone would information please email me. Is the power cord that non-standard? I would understand that they might need something beefier than an IEC C13/C14 for how much power something like that pulls. Is it a C19/C20, maybe? That's what my DEC GIGAswitch uses. Peace... Sridhar From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 4 14:42:23 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:42:23 +0100 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <466351C4.3203.12D5AA39@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <003101c7a6e0$7acba500$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What's always rankled my sense of the Way Things Ought To Be is that > the statement isn't syntactically illegal. It's just impossible to > say for certain what it does. The whole point of C was (is?) to be fast. So in certain areas the compiler writer is given a certain latitude to do whatever turns out to be "best" for the compiler. So the standard writers aren't being particularly capricious, they are deliberately avoiding tying down the compiler writers with red tape. Whether this is a good idea or not is a different area altogether. (And one that has been decided by historical precedent). Antonio From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jun 4 15:38:51 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 15:38:51 -0500 Subject: NorthStar Advantage "Graphics CP/M"? In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:52:47 -0500. <4664516F.2010600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200706041944.l54JiTUx022307@keith.ezwind.net> > What is it? I didn't know the Northstar's had graphics capabilities. I'm not sure whats with "Graphics CP/M" as far as I can tell CP/M itself is text mode on the Advantage, although some applicatons were ported/created to/for the Advantage which used it's graphical abilities. NorthStar did provide a graphics version of BASIC under N* DOS for the Advantage. > > The horizon didn't have graphics (it just had serial ports), but the > > advantage has dot addressable graphics (monochrome, 640x200 or 640x240 I > > think). And quite impressive considering the time period - If you have an Advantage and have not done so yet, run the diagnostics/demonstration disk and see the graphics demos (I have it on my site). One of these days I'm going to take some screen shots to post on the site. I wanted one "so bad" when they were current and I had no budget. > Interesting! I see our old friend "computermkt" has one on ebay for > only $800 plus another $55 for shipping. How common are the Advantage > machines? It would be another nice milestone in personal computer > graphics (old-computers.com says the Advantage came out in 1982, which > makes it pretty significant historically). Although it was cutting edge at the time, it seemed to go largly unnoticed, and most people have never heard of it. There not that common, but they do turn up from time to time. $800 seems way-overpriced to me. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 4 14:45:20 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:45:20 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Tony Duell wrote: > ways, but I've never seen a terminal that wasn't a DTE (or for that > matter a modem that wasn't a DCE) Well if you are wiring up your new TERMINAL and you have the standard in front of you with a page that says data TERMINAL equipment then you'd have to be pretty bloody minded to be different :-) You'd also have interoperability issues (as you would with modems, no?) Having said that, someone must have done it just to be contrary :-) Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 15:06:52 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20070604130621.R93330@shell.lmi.net> > [RE RS232 tester] > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > > fine ever since. some things should be opened and examined BEFORE use. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jun 4 15:08:31 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 16:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NorthStar Advantage "Graphics CP/M"? In-Reply-To: <200706041944.l54JiTUx022307@keith.ezwind.net> References: Your message of Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:52:47 -0500. <4664516F.2010600@pacbell.net> <200706041944.l54JiTUx022307@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2007, dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > And quite impressive considering the time period - If you have an Advantage > and have not done so yet, run the diagnostics/demonstration disk and see > the graphics demos (I have it on my site). One of these days I'm going to > take some screen shots to post on the site. Tandy had a graphics option board for the TRS-80 Model 4 which would do 640x240 (mono), part #26-1126. I have one installed in a Model 4P - there's a picture of a graphics demo on this page: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Tandy/Model4p.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 15:08:10 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <251380.13418.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Well if you are wiring up your new TERMINAL and you > have the standard > in front of you with a page that says data TERMINAL > equipment then > you'd have to be pretty bloody minded to be > different :-) > Having said that, someone must have done it just to > be contrary :-) Well, they never could decide on what gender to make the connectors on the back of the terminal... -Ian From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jun 4 15:18:41 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:18:41 -0700 Subject: Terminals with DCE (Was: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals?) In-Reply-To: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: > Tony Duell wrote: > > ways, but I've never seen a terminal that wasn't a DTE (or for that > > matter a modem that wasn't a DCE) > > Well if you are wiring up your new TERMINAL and you have the > standard in front of you with a page that says data TERMINAL > equipment then you'd have to be pretty bloody minded to be > different :-) > > You'd also have interoperability issues (as you would with > modems, no?) > > Having said that, someone must have done it just to be contrary :-) I have run across a number of terminals that had DCE wiring on their DB-25 RS-232 connectors. IIRC there was an early Ann Arbor terminal that was wired this way. I also recall a NEC-made terminal that also had this weird wiring. Lastly, there was a very strang little terminal that used a dot-matrix LED display (1 line by 80 characters) that was "portable" and ran off of a rechargeable battery pack (not for long) that was also wired this way. It did have a built in modem, so you could just plug a phone line into it (110 or 300 baud), but if you wanted to use it "hard wired" to a computer, you had to use a null modem and some gender benders. With regard to the TEC terminal, I still haven't gotten around to posting photos yet. Will do so soon. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 15:33:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 13:33:44 -0700 Subject: Aztec C (was: more eBay stuff) In-Reply-To: <003101c7a6e0$7acba500$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <466351C4.3203.12D5AA39@cclist.sydex.com>, <003101c7a6e0$7acba500$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <466414B8.20525.15CF370A@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 20:42, Antonio Carlini wrote: > The whole point of C was (is?) to be fast. So in certain areas the > compiler writer is given a certain latitude to do whatever turns > out to be "best" for the compiler. So the standard writers aren't being > particularly capricious, they are deliberately avoiding tying down the > compiler writers with red tape. Trudging even further afield from the topic at hand... The odd thing about this is that it seems to be that the more restrictive the language spec, the better an automatic optimizer is able to work with the code. I mentioned that C pointers were misery for an optimizer, while FORTRAN (absent various vendor extensions) does not have them, making it easier to optimize automatically (at least in the sense of determining side effects). Cheers, Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jun 4 15:36:15 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 15:36:15 -0500 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday References: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> <46646A77.7030909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00de01c7a6e8$055e5440$32406b43@66067007> Looks like a L21-30 plug mount in rear of computer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday > Keys wrote: >> Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a Symbolics >> model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all the needed >> cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two hard drives >> mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some software. >> Anyone would information please email me. > > Is the power cord that non-standard? I would understand that they might > need something beefier than an IEC C13/C14 for how much power something > like that pulls. Is it a C19/C20, maybe? That's what my DEC GIGAswitch > uses. > > Peace... Sridhar From grant at stockly.com Mon Jun 4 15:52:51 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:52:51 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663F990.21067.15651D4A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125039.032516b0@pop.1and1.com> At 10:37 AM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >On 4 Jun 2007 at 2:50, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Yes, that's why I quoted "authentic". There's nothing (IMO) about > > the presence or absence of a 7805 that makes an S-100 board any more > > or less authentic...that's the point I was trying to get across. > >Well, I don't know much about the nuances of this collecting thing. >Does replacement of 74LS logic with, say, 74HCT logic lower the value >of a vintage object? Someone built one of my Altair replica PCBs and went to great lengths to make sure the date code on the ICs was older than 1975. They also sourced the old brown cylindrical resistors. I provide the exact same parts that were on the origional BOM, but don't try to match date codes! : ) I guess everyone has their own idea of what is vintage enough. From grant at stockly.com Mon Jun 4 15:55:01 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:55:01 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663FABC.22059.1569B727@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125329.034be3a0@pop.1and1.com> At 10:42 AM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote: > > > I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part > number > > digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold > > plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from > > the company they are $17-$20. : ) > >I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin" >for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be >galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly >in high-humidity environments. > >Is this not true? I'm not sure. I have a 30 year old Altair with gold plated sockets and tin plated boards. Works fine and I don't see any oxidation. I pay about $5-7 extra per PCB to get gold plated fingers, just because people buying my kit are most likely not buying it for what it does but more likely what it looks like. : ) From grant at stockly.com Mon Jun 4 16:04:09 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 13:04:09 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125329.034be3a0@pop.1and1.com> References: <4663FABC.22059.1569B727@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604130212.03586ef8@pop.1and1.com> At 12:55 PM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >At 10:42 AM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >>On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote: >> >> > I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part >> number >> > digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold >> > plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from >> > the company they are $17-$20. : ) >> >>I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin" >>for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be >>galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly >>in high-humidity environments. >> >>Is this not true? > >I'm not sure. I have a 30 year old Altair with gold plated sockets and >tin plated boards. Works fine and I don't see any oxidation. I pay about >$5-7 extra per PCB to get gold plated fingers, just because people buying >my kit are most likely not buying it for what it does but more likely what >it looks like. : ) There is also a concern over ROHS solder and gold plated pins. I remember words like leaching, cracking...basically bad stuff. Plus, $15 for gold contacts and tinned pins, or $30 for gold pins and contacts... From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 16:14:10 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 14:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Terminals with DCE (Was: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals?) In-Reply-To: References: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <20070604140634.B93330@shell.lmi.net> If you have a terminal (particularly one with its own built-in modem), that has a port for an external printer, then that may be wired DCE. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 4 16:15:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:15:09 -0600 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125039.032516b0@pop.1and1.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125039.032516b0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <466480DD.9020203@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > > Someone built one of my Altair replica PCBs and went to great lengths to > make sure the date code on the ICs was older than 1975. They also > sourced the old brown cylindrical resistors. > I provide the exact same parts that were on the origional BOM, but don't > try to match date codes! : ) > I guess everyone has their own idea of what is vintage enough. I draw the line at Vintage smoke. Since most people want to run a classic computer first rather display it I think the stuff on the BOM is fine. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 16:18:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:18:41 -0400 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <00de01c7a6e8$055e5440$32406b43@66067007> References: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> <46646A77.7030909@gmail.com> <00de01c7a6e8$055e5440$32406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <466481B1.7030000@gmail.com> Keys wrote: > Looks like a L21-30 plug mount in rear of computer. Non twist-lock? That's pretty strange too, isn't it? Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jun 4 16:31:44 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:31:44 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? References: <251380.13418.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <466484B6.5B002FBA@cs.ubc.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > Well if you are wiring up your new TERMINAL and you > > have the standard > > in front of you with a page that says data TERMINAL > > equipment then > > you'd have to be pretty bloody minded to be > > different :-) > > > Having said that, someone must have done it just to > > be contrary :-) > > Well, they never could decide on what gender to make > the connectors on the back of the terminal... Indeed, I couldn't say whether I ever saw a terminal that was actually *electrically* wired as DCE, but there was no shortage of terminals and other equipment that got the gender wrong. I don't have the RS232 spec in front of me but I have always been of the understanding that it explicitly specifies that DCE shall be a female connector and DTE male. You should be able to simply look at the gender of the connector and know whether it was DCE or DTE. You would also be able to look at a cable and know (in part) what it did: a M-F cable would be straight thru, a F-F cable would be a null modem. It has always been a source of annoyance (to me) with such equipment that you can't rely on this and have to check everything. (Either that or somebody correct me about the spec.!) I actually just received an old (70s) RS232 breakout box. Rather than having a male and a female DB25 which would make it trivial to insert in a line, it has two female DB25s, which not only violates the spec but pretty much guarantees that you're going to have to monkey around with an additional gender-changing cable whenever you use it! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 16:38:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 17:38:18 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <466480DD.9020203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125039.032516b0@pop.1and1.com> <466480DD.9020203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Grant Stockly wrote: > > > Someone built one of my Altair replica PCBs and went to great lengths to > > make sure the date code on the ICs was older than 1975. They also > > sourced the old brown cylindrical resistors. I've been known to do that, but for much more trivial examples - when I built my 1976-design Elf, I did the best I could on chips (my CPU and memory were of the period, but I have not yet tracked down a 74L00 for the clock divider circuit), but I was happy to have a bin of vintage brown cylindrical resistors for the pullups. I had to compromise on the regulator - the oldest one I could find in my junk bin was an LM340T. Obviously, the computer doesn't care, but I wanted something that would have looked as if I had made it when I first got into computers as a kid. A complete indulgence to nostalgia. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 16:30:22 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 14:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3174 Terminal Controller Message-ID: <940188.93363.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, this has been one of those ideas that has been at the back of my mind for a long time - I would like to interface one of these IBM terminals I have around the house to something. Anything. I was thinking about an emulated mainframe on Hercules or something. But the thing that brings this to the foreground in my thoughts is that today I had to troubleshoot a 3174-51R at a customer's site. This thing is connected, via a rather unusual cable, to a Cisco 2500 series router, so that means the 25 pin connector on the back must be some form of X.25 or something like that. I know that the fellow at corestore.org has been able to get a real IBM terminal to telnet into an emulated system via a terminal controller with built in ethernet (although I have never seen one). Anyone done this before? What do I need to hunt for? I now have one piece of the puzzle that I was never able to find before - the manual for the 3174-51R. Now the terminal controller's operation can be deciphered. But, of course, I don't have the 3174. -Ian From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jun 4 16:39:11 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:39:11 -0700 Subject: Terminals with DCE (Was: Anyone know anything about old TECTerminals?) References: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <46648674.2235CC76@cs.ubc.ca> Rick Bensene wrote: > > I have run across a number of terminals that had DCE wiring on their > DB-25 RS-232 connectors. > IIRC there was an early Ann Arbor terminal that was wired this way. I ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ .. funny, that's one I was recalling as a problem (an otherwise nice basic terminal). From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 16:44:00 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 17:44:00 -0400 Subject: How do I get my money back? (from dishonest ebay seller) Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=260115466844 I sent her $50 post office money order, including some extras for better packaging. But she did not answer emails, and she did not send me anything. She cheated some 10+ other people in the same period of time. I know, she had negative feedback back in 2002 before these recent auctions. But her auctions did not look like fraud when I bid. I heard that it is classified as mail fraud. If I report to the mail office, at least they are going to send her a letter to threaten her. Does anybody here have such experience? How do I proceed? Help please. vax, 9000 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jun 4 16:49:01 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:49:01 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <4663DA3A.7060105@comcast.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604125329.034be3a0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <466488C3.AD6B7A87@cs.ubc.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > >I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin" > >for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be > >galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly > >in high-humidity environments. > > > >Is this not true? > > I'm not sure. I have a 30 year old Altair with gold plated sockets and tin > plated boards. Works fine and I don't see any oxidation. I pay about $5-7 > extra per PCB to get gold plated fingers, just because people buying my kit > are most likely not buying it for what it does but more likely what it > looks like. : ) I would have thought as Chuck did, however I scrapped some circa-1969 Hewlett-Packard reed-scanners 3-4 years ago which were similarly tin-plate PCB fingers in gold-plated sockets. The tin plate was as shiny and clean as if it just came out of the dip! From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Jun 4 17:42:42 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 4 Jun 2007 15:42:42 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <20070604130621.R93330@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> <20070604130621.R93330@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1180996962.466495622094f@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Fred Cisin : > > [RE RS232 tester] > > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to > the > > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's > been > > > fine ever since. > > some things should be opened and examined BEFORE use. > I recently purchased some diagnostic circuit boards and they are terrible, I am seriously considering getting a rework station and removing all the non lead based solder and re soldering them with good old fashioned lead based solder, the soldier joints are horrible and there is some odd contamination (perhaps some different flux they have to use with it) that comes to the surface when you re solder the existing solder joints (black flecks) I contacted the dealer i got them from and they told me that was normal for the lead-free solder that they use now 0.o From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 16:58:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 22:58:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <4662E1B0.29790.111FDDFD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 3, 7 03:43:44 pm Message-ID: > > Add to that the little RS-232 "patch boxes"--one male, one female DB- > 25 and a PCB in between with pads for each conductor and a hood that > covers the whole works. I have several pre-wired and labeled with I just bought the empry housiongs nad fitted my own connectors, which I hard-wired appropraitely (no PCB)> That means my null-modems have socks on both ends, for example. Be warned there was a ready-made 'null modem' adapter sold by Maplin in the UK that had _cray_ wiring. I am not sure what it was designed to work with, but I could find nothing that it was correct for. > things like "null modem" "crossover", etc. I even have one labeled > "Laplink parallel". Get enough of these and all you need are > straight-through cables--and maybe a gender changer or two. No The 'unviersal gender cable' is handy. Take a length of 25 way IDC ribbon cable (e.g . strip 1 wire off some 26 way) about 2' long. Crimp a DB25 plug and a DB25 socket at each end (4 connectors total) making sure all the pin 1s go to the same wire. Mkke a couple of them and you have no need for gender benders. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 17:37:33 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 23:37:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jun 4, 7 09:00:57 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Tony Duell said: > > [RE RS232 tester] > > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > > fine ever since. > > http://www.cpc.co.uk item number CS11237 4.88+VAT And +postage presumably. From what I remmber (from needing some drvie belts for a cassette recorder), CPC has a fairly high handling charge on small orders. > if you need replacement, I've just ordered one this weekend... Unless mine gets run over by a traction engine, I am unlikely to need to replacve it. If an LED fails, I'll (as ever) jsut replace that LED. It's not exactly hard to fault-trace or repair... On the other hand I might get a couple more to be able to monitor several ports at once. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 17:33:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 23:33:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: <4663906C.CB4CA118@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Jun 3, 7 09:09:16 pm Message-ID: > Generally, you can avoid retalitory feedback by just not leaving feedback. The > other way is to "snipe" the feedback at the 60 day limit of when you can leave > feedback (or so I've been told.) Be careful. I've never had cuase to do this, so I am not sure, but I've been told that if you know the auction number (for want of the better term) yuo can leave feedback after the 60 day limit. So sniping may not prevent retaliation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 17:44:28 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 23:44:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <003201c7a6e0$e3cfccc0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 4, 7 08:45:20 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > ways, but I've never seen a terminal that wasn't a DTE (or for that > > matter a modem that wasn't a DCE) > > Well if you are wiring up your new TERMINAL and you have the standard > in front of you with a page that says data TERMINAL equipment then > you'd have to be pretty bloody minded to be different :-) I would agree, which is why I am puzzled that the OP was wondering if his terminal was a DTE ora DCE. > > You'd also have interoperability issues (as you would with modems, no?) > > Having said that, someone must have done it just to be contrary :-) I'd be interested to know who.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 17:45:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 23:45:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <20070604130621.R93330@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 4, 7 01:06:52 pm Message-ID: > > > [RE RS232 tester] > > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > > > fine ever since. > > some things should be opened and examined BEFORE use. Yes, I know that _now_ (and indeed, pull the covers of everything I buy now). But this was 20 years agom, before I'd had as much experience. -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jun 4 18:07:05 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 19:07:05 -0400 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:12:38 CDT." <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Keys" wrote: >Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a Symbolics >model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all the needed >cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two hard drives >mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some software. Anyone >would information please email me. I'm not sure abot power on a 3640. My 3630 has stock power cord. The "refrigerator" 3600's are another matter - those are circular but you can make an adapter easily. (if I remember right the 3640 is just an "L" machine - i.e. stock TTL; the 3630 is a G machine, which has FPGA's) You're going to need a keyboard. And more important, a cable from the monitor to the machine. If you are luck it will just boot. Does it have a cart tape drive? if so, assume the roller is goo. I would not use it unless you replace the rubber parts. I would get in touch with David Schmidt in VA. He can get a keyboard for you and a monitor cable. -brad From grant at stockly.com Sun Jun 3 22:28:57 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 19:28:57 -0800 Subject: 3.5" Altair CP/M In-Reply-To: <46634C83.2070806@comcast.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515120542.0572a008@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070515170658.0540ac88@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603023309.0494bdc0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603130407.04622ec8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603191855.036e9318@pop.1and1.com> At 03:19 PM 6/3/2007, you wrote: >Grant, > >I think this is a cool idea. >I'd like to help out in any way I can. >Either with the design, schematics, etc. Getting a drive working with MITS software? I have a lot of MITS software on 8" hard sectored disks and I would like to move that onto other disks without having to modify boot code. One example is MITS Music Basic, or the Music Operating System. I found someone who has it and it is in the "FedEx" right now. : ) MITS was working on a 4 voice music card and had a special version of basic written for it. There is even a version of Star Trek with sound effects! I want to be able to preserve this stuff as historically accurate as possible. It would be MUCH easier to use a flash memory chip and emulate the entire disk subsystem at the I/O port level. I can't seem to find any MMC, SD, or compact flash cards in the 1-4MB range dirt cheap. I thought that with flash memory prices being low I could find some. I want to retain the physical piece per disk feel and not have all the disks in one memory image. So this means I have to have a cheap media source. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 18:24:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 16:24:35 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: References: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jun 4, 7 09:00:57 am, Message-ID: <46643CC3.13357.166BA465@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 23:37, Tony Duell wrote: >> Unless mine gets run over by a traction engine, I am unlikely to need to > replacve it. If an LED fails, I'll (as ever) jsut replace that LED. It's > not exactly hard to fault-trace or repair... If I did more of RS-232 troubleshooting, I'd probably want one with a pulse stretcher on at least SD and RD. At 115K, it's pretty hard to notice a one-character blip. I don't know if any were made like this, but it wouldn't be hard to cobble one up. Cheers, Chuck From James at jdfogg.com Mon Jun 4 18:30:27 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 19:30:27 -0400 Subject: 3174 Terminal Controller Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256E19@sbs.jdfogg.com> > But the thing that brings this to the foreground in my > thoughts is that today I had to troubleshoot a 3174-51R at a > customer's site. This thing is connected, via a rather > unusual cable, to a Cisco 2500 series router, so that means > the 25 pin connector on the back must be some form of X.25 or > something like that. I know that the fellow at corestore.org > has been able to get a real IBM terminal to telnet into an > emulated system via a terminal controller with built in > ethernet (although I have never seen one). This is usually SDLC that is source-route-bridged over IP. S390 Open System Adapters (or whatever they called the ethernet/ip adapters for old S390's) could talk SRB/IP. It's been 13 years since I played with these. So, on the "cluster controller" (3174) end you have stock SDLC via synchronous serial on either RS232 or V.35. On the server end you'll need to get hercules to emulate an OSA. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 18:31:57 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 16:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070604163050.O93330@shell.lmi.net> > > some things should be opened and examined BEFORE use. > On Mon, 4 Jun 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, I know that _now_ (and indeed, pull the covers of everything I buy > now). But this was 20 years agom, before I'd had as much experience. it's hard to resist an opportunity to "tell grandpa how to suck eggs" From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 4 18:48:48 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 19:48:48 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663F990.21067.15651D4A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4663F990.21067.15651D4A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2444E735-A730-4F53-B63D-836ABF63AC4E@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yes, that's why I quoted "authentic". There's nothing (IMO) about >> the presence or absence of a 7805 that makes an S-100 board any more >> or less authentic...that's the point I was trying to get across. > > Well, I don't know much about the nuances of this collecting thing. > Does replacement of 74LS logic with, say, 74HCT logic lower the value > of a vintage object? I guess that depends on the collector. I still have a hard time considering S-100 stuff "collectible" because every piece of S-100 gear I own is something I've had since it was current technology. I thought, though, we were originally talking about *brand new* S-100 boards. >> Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products is >> twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking into >> account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related stuff. I >> wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been developed >> sooner? > > That's an interesting question, considering the variety of boards > possible using the Multibus daughterboard system. Given the long > life of Multibus and its deployment in industrial systems (as well as > some Sun hardware), I wonder if the total production volume of > Multibus boards isn't greater than that of S-100. Yet Multibus sems > to get very little notice from the vintage collectors. Really a > shame, since MB is much more of a well-thought-out design. Agreed. But it just doesn't seem to be anywhere near as common. Very odd. > At Durango, we had an MDS-800, but we also went "on the cheap" and > purchased a Multibus cage and cards, some floppies and a PSU and > built our own MDS-compatible (wooden) box as a backup. Not nearly as > pretty or expandable, but it booted from the same ISIS-II floppy as > did the MDS. Oh that sounds cool. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 4 18:55:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 19:55:15 -0400 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <46646A77.7030909@gmail.com> References: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> <46646A77.7030909@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 4, 2007, at 3:39 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a >> Symbolics model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, >> and all the needed cables (power cord also). I opened the front >> door and saw two hard drives mounted inside. Will also be looking >> for manuals and some software. Anyone would information please >> email me. > > Is the power cord that non-standard? I would understand that they > might need something beefier than an IEC C13/C14 for how much power > something like that pulls. Is it a C19/C20, maybe? That's what my > DEC GIGAswitch uses. The connector on my 3645 is a twist-lok, L5-30 I think. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Jun 4 18:56:04 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 16:56:04 -0700 Subject: How do I get my money back? (from dishonest ebay seller) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007301c7a703$ea3daf00$6501a8c0@NFORCE4> Your only good option is to file the mail-fraud complaint. Since you used a postal money order you'll be in good shape there. You should also file the appropriate eBay complaints. She'll get an official letter from the Post Office and emails from eBay and can choose to react or ignore them. The Post Office and police won't do squat until the fraud is pretty big. Other than that it's small claims or Bubba. Good luck! Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 9000 VAX Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 2:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: How do I get my money back? (from dishonest ebay seller) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=260115466844 I sent her $50 post office money order, including some extras for better packaging. But she did not answer emails, and she did not send me anything. She cheated some 10+ other people in the same period of time. I know, she had negative feedback back in 2002 before these recent auctions. But her auctions did not look like fraud when I bid. I heard that it is classified as mail fraud. If I report to the mail office, at least they are going to send her a letter to threaten her. Does anybody here have such experience? How do I proceed? Help please. vax, 9000 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 4 19:19:37 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:19:37 -0400 Subject: 3174 Terminal Controller In-Reply-To: <940188.93363.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <940188.93363.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44301F50-CA57-4B51-A7D5-F242A4488FA0@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2007, at 5:30 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, this has been one of those ideas that has been > at the back of my mind for a long time - I would like > to interface one of these IBM terminals I have around > the house to something. Anything. I was thinking about > an emulated mainframe on Hercules or something. > > But the thing that brings this to the foreground in my > thoughts is that today I had to troubleshoot a > 3174-51R at a customer's site. This thing is > connected, via a rather unusual cable, to a Cisco 2500 > series router, so that means the 25 pin connector on > the back must be some form of X.25 or something like > that. I know that the fellow at corestore.org has been > able to get a real IBM terminal to telnet into an > emulated system via a terminal controller with built > in ethernet (although I have never seen one). > > Anyone done this before? What do I need to hunt for? I > now have one piece of the puzzle that I was never able > to find before - the manual for the 3174-51R. Now the > terminal controller's operation can be deciphered. > But, of course, I don't have the 3174. I'm working toward doing the same thing with my P/390. I have a 3174-61R with a token ring interface, but no Ethernet. The other thing I lack is the firmware disk for the 3290 plasma terminal, which is what I'm trying to get running. The 3174 downloads that into a 3290 when it (the 3290) powers up. Anyway, your -51R can take a token ring interface if you can find one. That might be easier than setting up a synchronous serial pipe to a Cisco. At least you could get an Ethernet switch that can bridge to token ring...I might wind up going that route since my main switch here is a Cisco Catalyst 5000, for which token ring cards are dirt cheap. What sort of IBM terminals do you have? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 4 19:24:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:24:07 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4663BF19.7080004@gmail.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> <4663BF19.7080004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60293042-4B57-4E86-BB7C-093BADDD53B6@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2007, at 3:28 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products >> is twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking >> into account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related >> stuff. I wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been >> developed sooner? > > I don't have any experience from which to draw when trying to come > up with a number for the amount of S-100 product out there, but I > can say without hesitation that there is a metric buttload of STD- > bus stuff out there, but only in specific arenas. You can get an > STD-bus board (or boardset) to do pretty much anything you can > think of in industrial control/manufacturing robotics. It's a very > popular bus in that arena. Yes I've heard that, and it's no coincidence that the three or four STD-bus cards that I've seen in my life happened to be motor controllers. :-) I really like the form factor of those cards...I wish they were easier to come by; I'd love to build up a little STD-bus "hack machine" around a Z80 or 6809. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Jun 4 20:01:18 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:01:18 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4664B5DE.3060001@comcast.net> Here's the specs I used from my Imsai 8080 backplane. 22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062"(1/16") thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz copper(approx), plated thru holes, green solder mask top and bottom, white silkscreen top, Hot Air Solder Level, 15day lead time. I currently use a place called General Circuits Co.Ltd(China), www.pcbcart.com. They've been providing a good quality service. Imagineering is rather expensive if you ask me as most of them places can be. For quick prototype, I also use Barebonespcb.com The Imsai backplane is supported by a grid of standoff's at every other slot position along both edges on the steel chassis. This is how it retains it's strength when inserting many cards into the system. They didn't need to make it any thicker. The only time I had thicker backplane pcbs is for an industrial system, CPCI or VME systems, --which this isn't-- then it's wise to make a 1/8" or 3/16" backplane. At my last job,Lucent, our telecom backplanes were 1/2" thick. This is usually the result of a 8,10,12 layer or more pcb. It also offers a system which can withstand the rigors of an unpredictable environment. The Imsai, Altair, and the like are just home systems. The copper thickness is estimated but it has to be more than the standard 1oz since this has a high current capacity. I can recheck the cost projections for a thicker copper layer just in case. All the sockets have gold plated contacts and are very good quality. Good thing you mentioned the sockets. I was using a supplier which has a dwindling supply(JDR)--checked it recently-- I hate when that happens. They don't even have enough left over to make one backplane --uuggh-- and can't even bother to resupply. I had to source another supplier I use for other stuff (Sullins Electronics). They have plenty but they cost alittle more. To make it still reasonable, the batch order would have to be 25 pieces at least and then the connectors would be down to $15each.(I should double check the shipping again). The problem with dealing directly with the vendors is that the prices they quote can mysteriously fluctuate depending on the lifespan of a gnat circumnavigating a buffalo's butt. So a kit price would be way more expensive for a 22slot backplane But you can always buy a few connectors at a clip and worry about filling the backplane later. Hey do I get a commission, now that I gave you some more suppliers :) =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Grant Stockly wrote: > > Where do you get S-100 connectors for $5 or huge 1/8" PCBs for $35? I > use Imagineering for PCBs and I can't get $35 a piece for 1/8 FR4 > 11x13" (being conservative) unless I order 50 with a 3 week lead time. > > I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part > number digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts > are gold plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy > direct from the company they are $17-$20. : ) > > I've heard horror stories from Todd Fisher about cheap sockets... > > Grant > > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 20:10:06 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 18:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <1180996962.466495622094f@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <64604.41872.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I recently purchased some diagnostic circuit boards > and they are terrible, I am > seriously considering getting a rework station and > removing all the non lead > based solder and re soldering them with good old > fashioned lead based solder, > the soldier joints are horrible and there is some > odd contamination (perhaps > some different flux they have to use with it) that > comes to the surface when you > re solder the existing solder joints (black flecks) > I contacted the dealer i > got them from and they told me that was normal for > the lead-free solder that > they use now 0.o Hehe, yeah. That lead free solder is a load of crap. Neat idea, just too bad it doesn't actually work very well. The lead was in there for a reason... -Ian From bear at typewritten.org Mon Jun 4 20:52:24 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 18:52:24 -0700 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> References: <00b101c7a6dc$5b4b0e90$32406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On Jun 4, 2007, at 12:12 PM, Keys wrote: > Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a > Symbolics model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, > and all the needed cables (power cord also). I opened the front > door and saw two hard drives mounted inside. Will also be looking > for manuals and some software. Anyone would information please > email me. The drives are probably MFM (Maxtor XT4190s were available) but could be ESDI depending on how your I/O processor is set up. There's nothing special about the power cord apart from the connector involved. My 3650 has a NEMA L21-30 twist-lock connector out the back like your 3640 does; its power cord terminates in a standard NEMA 5-15 plug just like every other piece of equipment in the world. It runs off a normal 15A household circuit just fine, even with a full complement of memory and an 8" SMD hard drive. I have spare 3640 boards once you get that far. Other spare parts are still available from what's left of Symbolics. Contact Dave Schmidt (sales at symbolics.com), but it might be spendy depending on what you need. ok bear From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jun 4 21:22:18 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:22:18 -0500 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday References: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <004101c7a718$5d8772c0$1b406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Parker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 6:07 PM Subject: Re: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday > > "Keys" wrote: >>Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a Symbolics >>model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all the needed >>cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two hard drives >>mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some software. Anyone >>would information please email me. > > I'm not sure abot power on a 3640. My 3630 has stock power cord. The > "refrigerator" 3600's are another matter - those are circular but you > can make an adapter easily. > > (if I remember right the 3640 is just an "L" machine - i.e. stock TTL; > the 3630 is a G machine, which has FPGA's) > > You're going to need a keyboard. And more important, a cable from the > monitor to the machine. > > If you are luck it will just boot. Does it have a cart tape drive? if > so, assume the roller is goo. I would not use it unless you replace the > rubber parts. > > I would get in touch with David Schmidt in VA. He can get a keyboard > for you and a monitor cable. > > -brad > The drive is missing just a open bay with a cable hanging there. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 21:24:24 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:24:24 -0400 Subject: How do I get my money back? (from dishonest ebay seller) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4664C958.6040207@gmail.com> 9000 VAX wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=260115466844 > I sent her $50 post office money order, including some extras for better > packaging. But she did not answer emails, and she did not send me anything. > She cheated some 10+ other people in the same period of time. I know, she > had negative feedback back in 2002 before these recent auctions. But her > auctions did not look like fraud when I bid. > > I heard that it is classified as mail fraud. If I report to the mail > office, > at least they are going to send her a letter to threaten her. Does anybody > here have such experience? How do I proceed? Help please. The last (and only) time I filed a complaint on a postal money order, they refunded it immediately and initiated fraud proceedings against the recipient. I don't know if that's standard practice or not, but it's at least a data point, FWIW. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 21:28:48 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:28:48 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <60293042-4B57-4E86-BB7C-093BADDD53B6@neurotica.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4662A972.19682.10442CBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <6C16158E-7ABC-454E-8B19-813F20B87E6B@neurotica.com> <4662F653.16944.11707A1B@cclist.sydex.com> <4663BF19.7080004@gmail.com> <60293042-4B57-4E86-BB7C-093BADDD53B6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4664CA60.7040705@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 4, 2007, at 3:28 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Also true. I'd bet, however, that the number of S-100 products is >>> twice that of Multibus and STD bus combined, even when taking into >>> account stuff like Multibus-based Cisco routers and related stuff. I >>> wonder why that is...is it just a matter of having been developed >>> sooner? >> >> I don't have any experience from which to draw when trying to come up >> with a number for the amount of S-100 product out there, but I can say >> without hesitation that there is a metric buttload of STD-bus stuff >> out there, but only in specific arenas. You can get an STD-bus board >> (or boardset) to do pretty much anything you can think of in >> industrial control/manufacturing robotics. It's a very popular bus in >> that arena. > > Yes I've heard that, and it's no coincidence that the three or four > STD-bus cards that I've seen in my life happened to be motor > controllers. :-) > > I really like the form factor of those cards...I wish they were easier > to come by; I'd love to build up a little STD-bus "hack machine" around > a Z80 or 6809. It would probably be easiest to build a "hack machine" around the 6502. There are a significant number of 6502-based CPU boards for talking to said motor controllers over the STD-bus. I've Z80-based ones too, but from what I've seen the 6502 ones are more common. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 21:30:15 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:30:15 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <64604.41872.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <64604.41872.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4664CAB7.3090308@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> I recently purchased some diagnostic circuit boards >> and they are terrible, I am >> seriously considering getting a rework station and >> removing all the non lead >> based solder and re soldering them with good old >> fashioned lead based solder, >> the soldier joints are horrible and there is some >> odd contamination (perhaps >> some different flux they have to use with it) that >> comes to the surface when you >> re solder the existing solder joints (black flecks) >> I contacted the dealer i >> got them from and they told me that was normal for >> the lead-free solder that >> they use now 0.o > > Hehe, yeah. That lead free solder is a load of crap. > Neat idea, just too bad it doesn't actually work very > well. The lead was in there for a reason... I think part of the problem is that the lead-free solders have practically different thermal characteristics, but a lot of places aren't taking that into account with their soldering-equipment budget. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 21:25:12 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:25:12 -0400 Subject: ebay "unpaid item strike" -- what's the consequence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4664C988.8000101@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Generally, you can avoid retalitory feedback by just not leaving feedback. The >> other way is to "snipe" the feedback at the 60 day limit of when you can leave >> feedback (or so I've been told.) > > Be careful. I've never had cuase to do this, so I am not sure, but I've > been told that if you know the auction number (for want of the better > term) yuo can leave feedback after the 60 day limit. So sniping may not > prevent retaliation. I believe the limit is actually 90 days, is it not? Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jun 4 22:28:49 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 20:28:49 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? References: <200706040800.JAA15784@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jun 4, 7 09:00:57 am, <46643CC3.13357.166BA465@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4664D860.4F92BF27@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 4 Jun 2007 at 23:37, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> Unless mine gets run over by a traction engine, I am unlikely to > need to > > replacve it. If an LED fails, I'll (as ever) jsut replace that LED. It's > > not exactly hard to fault-trace or repair... > > If I did more of RS-232 troubleshooting, I'd probably want one with a > pulse stretcher on at least SD and RD. At 115K, it's pretty hard to > notice a one-character blip. I don't know if any were made like > this, but it wouldn't be hard to cobble one up. The one I just received (a Navtel) has what appear (I haven't played with it yet) to be pulse catchers which can be patched to any pin. Presumably they latch on for a transition (there is a reset button). Which edge (+/-) they watch for will be the question. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 23:02:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:02:52 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <2444E735-A730-4F53-B63D-836ABF63AC4E@neurotica.com> References: <4662F620.3010608@bitsavers.org>, <4663F990.21067.15651D4A@cclist.sydex.com>, <2444E735-A730-4F53-B63D-836ABF63AC4E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46647DFC.12087.176A683B@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2007 at 19:48, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh that sounds cool. :) Wood was very "in" for prototyping back then. :) Looked even funkier if you plastered wood-grain vinyl shelf paper over it. Anyone remember the Atari Race Car game at Andy Capp's around 1976? IIRC wasn't it just brown-stained plywood? Cheers, Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jun 4 23:06:56 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:06:56 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... Message-ID: <200706042106.57029.lbickley@bickleywest.com> A number of you probably remember me "announcing" in Jan, 2007 that I had rescued a MODCOMP II/12 from a lab here in Silicon Valley. The link for that is below (sorry, it's slow - the pictures are large). http://bickleywest.com/modcomp.htm After a lot of work cleaning up both the CPU and I/O chassis I began checking out the system. It turned out that the I/O chassis was in pretty bad shape. I went back to the lab facility where I found the MODCOMP II - looked through several more buildings - and found another lone MODCOMP II I/O chassis. I went through the "salvage" process again - and finally picked it up about a month ago. It was in a lot better shape than the original I/O unit. And the really great news - it was an identical configuration to my original I/O chassis. After cleaning it up, doing all the usual capacitor, power supply checking - I powered it up - and everything "looked" good - and no bad "cooking" smells ;-) I cabled up the CPU and I/O unit, powered 'em up - and to my amazement the front panel controls seemed to work O.K. I then did the usual hand memory tests - and core memory worked O.K. every location I tested. I then wrote a bunch of small diagnostics (in machine code) - and found that I/O was not easy to code - but I did enough to check that the console in/out ports worked O.K. Today I loaded diagnostic monitors, and diags - and most of the system - including I/O is working! The really good news is that all 64K (words) of core memory passed the long manufacturing memory diagnostic - which even tests for "hot cores" failing. It's been months in the making this critter come alive - but it sure feels great when the diagnostics tell you that you are on the right track :-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From grant at stockly.com Mon Jun 4 23:15:46 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 20:15:46 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4664B5DE.3060001@comcast.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> At 05:01 PM 6/4/2007, you wrote: >Here's the specs I used from my Imsai 8080 backplane. >22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062"(1/16") thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz >copper(approx), plated thru holes, green solder mask top and bottom, white >silkscreen top, Hot Air Solder Level, 15day lead time. >I currently use a place called General Circuits Co.Ltd(China), >www.pcbcart.com. They've been providing a good quality service. >Imagineering is rather expensive if you ask me as most of them places can >be. For quick prototype, I also use Barebonespcb.com That makes sense... 14 day lead, 8.5x17, 2 layer, 2oz, plated, green, white-top... Imagineering wants $37.41 So they can't be TOO expensive. ; ) Barebonespcb is Advanced Circuits. They are pretty expensive on everything but the "bare bones" boards. I use them for prototypes too. If you want high volume large "bare bones" PCBs, NO ONE (that I've found) so far can beat PCBExpress. I used them to make 20 14x12" PCBs for my 19,008 LED bitmap display. I think the bill was $340. :D They are kind of strange about drill sizes... You have to choose from around 15 sizes. I like the "look" of the boards that Imagineering produces, so I stick with them. Don't forget that once I make the CPU and RAM card with a given finish I have to finish off the kit with the same finish! They have a nice green gloss... It would look funny to have differing looks. So I guess I am stuck. : ) I have finished the 2SIO, PMC, SIOB, MODEM, and 4MCS boards. It sure is a pretty set! Now I need to start selling these things so I can afford to make new toys. >So a kit price would be way more expensive for a 22slot backplane >But you can always buy a few connectors at a clip and worry about filling >the backplane later. > >Hey do I get a commission, now that I gave you some more suppliers :) I use Sullins! : ) I found I get just as good pricing through DigiKey and with a shorter lead time than going direct to sullins. What row spacing does the IMSAI board use on the S-100 connectors? is it .100"? I remember something about two different row spacings. I was forced to buy the ones that match the old motherboards because I couldn't just design something new... Oh, you want a percentage of the profits? Then write *me* a check! ; ) Grant From evan at snarc.net Mon Jun 4 23:47:39 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 00:47:39 -0400 Subject: General Announcement: Vintage Computer Festival East 4.0, this weekend! Message-ID: <000c01c7a72c$a57c87f0$6401a8c0@evan> For immediate release: MARCH, VintageTech, and the InfoAge Science Center announce the Vintage Computer Festival East 4.0 * What: A celebration of computers, technology, and culture from the 1940s - 1980s. Open to the public * When: June 9-10. Lectures from 10am-2pm, exhibits from 2pm-6pm both days * Where: InfoAge Science Center, 2201 Marconi Rd., Wall Township, N.J., 07719 * Cost: $10 for one day, $15 for two days, free for 12 and younger, free parking * Contact: Evan Koblentz, evank at midatlanticretro.org, 646-546-9999 ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -------- Do 8 bits excite you more than 64? Prefer blinkenlights over SVGA? Yearn for the days of input via toggle switches and paper tape? Or just want to play some Pac-Man? Then check out the Vintage Computer Festival East 4.0, June 9-10, at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey. This year's event is again hosted by MARCH -- the Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists. The Vintage Computer Festival began in 1997 in Silicon Valley, migrated eastward in 2001, and became a MARCH event in 2006. So what is a VCF? Imagine an antique car show where every owner let you test-drive his car, and where Henry Ford gave a lecture and signed autographs! It sounds unreal, but that's what happens with vintage computer technology at every edition of the VCF. This year's edition of the VCF East will feature 20 exhibits of computer technology from the 1940s to 1980s. Visitors will have the opportunity to use an IBM punch-card machine, witness a legendary Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-8 minicomputer in action, and experience all the top brands of 1970s microcomputers from companies like Apple, Commodore, and many others. Older S-100 kit computers, single-board computers, portables, and even analog and prehistoric computer technology will be demonstrated. On the extremes, we have one exhibitor preparing to show an authentic NASA Apollo flight computer, and another who'll display the most classic videogame console ever -- Atari -- play it 'til you drop! Read the full exhibitor list at http://www.vintage.org/2007/east/exhibit.php. If that's not enough, then listen to some of our guest speakers. The highlight this year will be a 30th anniversary panel in honor of Commodore, which was headquartered nearby in West Chester, Pennsylvania. The panel's star is Chuck Peddle, inventor of the famous MOS Technology 6502 chip, used in a wide variety of classic single-board computers and in microcomputers such as the Commodore PET and the Apple II. Peddle will join us via live videoconference, in which he promises to share previously untold stories, after which he'll answer audience questions. Commodore engineers appearing live at our show will include Bil Herd, Bob Russell, and Dave Haynie. We'll even have a birthday cake featuring the famous Commodore "Chickenhead" logo. Other speakers this year include Herb "Dr. S-100" Johnson, who'll explain the history of the CP/M operating system; Bill Degnan and Sellam Ismail; who together will give a crash-course in vintage computer discovery and restoration; and others to be announced. In addition, Ismail will give a second talk, but the topic is secret! You'll have to be there to find out what he plans. Yet another highlight of the VCF East 4.0 will be our new VCF Theatre, organized by acclaimed technology filmmaker Jason Scott. His films include "BBS: The Documentary" and the upcoming "Get Lamp" about text-adventure games. At the VCF Theatre, he'll be screening vintage computer-themed movies all weekend long in the afternoons. New this year is the donate-to-sell booth. Here, everyone is welcome to donate vintage computing items, with all proceeds to help MARCH build its computer museum. Our museum directly benefits future generations, so do your part and give something to this wonderful non-profit cause! (We request that any unsold items be re-claimed before you leave the VCF.) Did we mention the prizes? We'll have t-shirts, vintage computer replica kits, books, and maybe a surprise or two. All you have to do to win is show up, and be there when we announce winners each day. Finally, should your historic technology interest extend beyond just computers, then you've come to the right place. Our venue at the InfoAge Science Center is historic in itself. The facility began life in 1912 as an R&D center for Britain's Marconi Wireless Telegraph Co., and then spent several decades as Camp Evans, a top-secret laboratory of the U.S. military. RADAR that first spotted airplanes over Pearl Harbor and mankind's first radio signal to the moon were invented here, along with numerous other achievements. Today, the center is on the National Register of Historic Places and is a Black History Site. It's also home to the National Broadcasters Hall of Fame and an assortment of non-profit clubs all related to the history of technology, with a local focus. Driving directions, lodging information, exhibit details and more are posted at www.vintage.org/2007/east/. * For more information about MARCH, visit www.midatlanticretro.org * For more information about the InfoAge Science Center, visit www.infoage.org * For more information about VintageTech, visit www.vintagetech.com General questions? Want to exhibit or have a vendor booth at the VCF East? Member of the media? Contact VCF East producer and MARCH president Evan Koblentz, evank at midatlanticretro.org, 646-546-9999. From marvin at west.net Tue Jun 5 00:01:40 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:01:40 -0700 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <4664EE34.CD596C63@west.net> I also use PCBExpress for the small boards I make (transmitters and offset attenuators for transmitter hunting), and they are quick and inexpensive. I'm told by a friend of mine that a place in (I think) Bulgeria makes good quality boards at a better price (and are ROHS compliant) but I haven't tried them. Sidelight - The guy who started PCBExpress lives in Santa Barbara and used to work for Polymorphic Systems. One of the things *I* am interested in is finding out is if a "MicroAltair" was ever made by Polymorphic or if it was a preliminary announcement that got quashed by MITS. That was why the reason for the conversation I had with him (still don't know, but got another lead to find out.) Marvin, KE6HTS > but the "bare bones" boards. I use them for prototypes too. If you want > high volume large "bare bones" PCBs, NO ONE (that I've found) so far can > beat PCBExpress. I used them to make 20 14x12" PCBs for my 19,008 LED > bitmap display. I think the bill was $340. :D They are kind of strange > about drill sizes... You have to choose from around 15 sizes. > > Grant From grant at stockly.com Tue Jun 5 02:47:56 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 23:47:56 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <4664EE34.CD596C63@west.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604234151.0368cde0@pop.1and1.com> >I also use PCBExpress for the small boards I make (transmitters and offset >attenuators for transmitter hunting), and they are quick and inexpensive. I'm >told by a friend of mine that a place in (I think) Bulgeria makes good quality >boards at a better price (and are ROHS compliant) but I haven't tried them. > >Sidelight - The guy who started PCBExpress lives in Santa Barbara and used to >work for Polymorphic Systems. One of the things *I* am interested in is >finding >out is if a "MicroAltair" was ever made by Polymorphic or if it was a >preliminary announcement that got quashed by MITS. That was why the reason for >the conversation I had with him (still don't know, but got another lead to >find >out.) Check out Advanced Circuits www.4pcb.com http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=130 3 for $33. with a 60 square inch limit 5 day lead, but cheaper than PCB Express for small runs and they will drill hole sizes exactly. : ) Or Imagineering http://www.pcbnet.com/adspec107.asp You have to register to see pricing. Cheapest is 10 boards of 20 square inches for $13ea, 5 day lead on all. 11 - 20 sqin. $13ea. 21 - 40 sqin. $15ea. 41 - 60 sqin. $20ea. 61 - 80 sqin. $25ea. Anything above that and production pricing is cheaper. From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jun 5 02:54:57 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 00:54:57 -0700 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <4664E950.5070708@msu.edu> References: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4664E950.5070708@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Jun 4, 2007, at 9:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > If anyone knows different or has a copy of software that will do > this, I'd love to get a copy -- I'm out of space on my 3630 and I > have several compatible ESDI drives, but no means to make them > usable to the machine. Almost ready to send them out to Dave, but > not quite yet :). Josh; The special software is only for bringing up Genera from the FEP (bare metal); it's called the Breath Of Life tape. Once you have LISP running, Genera includes all the tools you need to initialize another disk and bring it up. In fact you can bypass the need for a BOL tape entirely, if you have access to a second system. I used to have the procedure, but by now it'll take me a while to find it again. ok bear From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 5 02:51:41 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 08:51:41 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Jun 2007 23:37:33 BST." Message-ID: <200706050751.IAA20520@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > > > Hi, > > > > Tony Duell said: > > > > [RE RS232 tester] > > > > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > > > fine ever since. > > > > http://www.cpc.co.uk item number CS11237 4.88+VAT > > And +postage presumably. From what I remmber (from needing some drvie > belts for a cassette recorder), CPC has a fairly high handling charge on > small orders. > I have an account with them, and I'm usually ordering enough stuff p&p is free so I tend to forget about that aspect. Just got a very nice CTX 19-inch crt monitor from them - they were selling the last of them off for 55 quid + VAT. Getting hard to get new CRT monitors now and the cheap LCD ones are rubbish! We'll soon be reduced to scouring eBay for real monitors :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jun 5 05:48:28 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 06:48:28 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46653F7C.8030909@comcast.net> The PCBCart actual cost after shipping is $28 I have to make some beer money, my day job pays the bills :) Sullins does have 2 options for the pin spacing, The Imsai has 0.250" spacing. I'm sure that's the same as the other machines(haven't looked inside my SOL). The connectors do get alot cheaper at qty.50, then it's only $9ea I'm always looking for more suppliers. =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Grant Stockly wrote: > > That makes sense... 14 day lead, 8.5x17, 2 layer, 2oz, plated, green, > white-top... Imagineering wants $37.41 So they can't be TOO > expensive. ; ) > > > I use Sullins! : ) I found I get just as good pricing through > DigiKey and with a shorter lead time than going direct to sullins. > What row spacing does the IMSAI board use on the S-100 connectors? is > it .100"? I remember something about two different row spacings. > From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jun 5 06:01:22 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 07:01:22 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604234151.0368cde0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604234151.0368cde0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <46654282.8000909@comcast.net> PCBExpress has some good prices for the barebones I'll have to put that at the top of my list. But not for pcb's with all the options. I always like the LED display projects--have fun soldering :) I came up with another style for a LED display. It still has Leds but not in plain sight. I call it the Pixelator, you'll see when I get ti done. I noticed that PCBExpress has a link to a PCB Assy house. - Screaming Circuits They look interesting too, but I havn't checked any quotes with them yet. As far as having the same finish. There's nothing stopping you from starting a new batch. I would suggest making a panel to cut costs(tooling and pcb), example 4x S-100 pcbs. They always want the goldfingers on the outside edge. I haven't seen any good prices from Advance Circuits that can compare. BTW, that link says $33 *each*, min qty 3 required They try to suck you in with all the free-for-first time customer promotions too. PCBCart still has a better price(even after shipping) with all the options Here's a comparison ..............Imagineering.......PCBCart 10piece 20 sq.in. 5 day lead 8 day lead(same diff) 11 - 20 sqin. $13ea. $6ea 21 - 40 sqin. $15ea. $9ea 41 - 60 sqin. $20ea. $11ea 61 - 80 sqin. $25ea. $14ea ($18ea after DHL shipping) =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Grant Stockly wrote: > > Check out Advanced Circuits www.4pcb.com > > http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=130 > > 3 for $33. with a 60 square inch limit 5 day lead, but cheaper than > PCB Express for small runs and they will drill hole sizes exactly. : ) > > Or Imagineering > > http://www.pcbnet.com/adspec107.asp You have to register to see pricing. > > Cheapest is 10 boards of 20 square inches for $13ea, 5 day lead on all. > > 11 - 20 sqin. $13ea. > 21 - 40 sqin. $15ea. > 41 - 60 sqin. $20ea. > 61 - 80 sqin. $25ea. > > Anything above that and production pricing is cheaper. > From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 5 11:20:28 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:20:28 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <4662E1B0.29790.111FDDFD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <36DC5760-E2C9-48E5-A276-E4570EA7B114@neurotica.com> <4662E1B0.29790.111FDDFD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706051220.28607.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 June 2007 18:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jun 2007 at 21:56, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'll go along with that. I have one, and I use it a lot more than my > > fancier RS232 test gear (like a Tekky datavoms terst). It's so easy just > > to plug in the LED tester and see (as you said) which pin the thing is > > transmitting on, which handshake lines is seems to be driving, and so on. > > > > I bought mine over 20 years ago. It failed after about a week due to the > > _terrible_ soldering on the PCB. I resoldered everything and it's been > > fine ever since. > > Add to that the little RS-232 "patch boxes"--one male, one female DB- > 25 and a PCB in between with pads for each conductor and a hood that > covers the whole works. I have several pre-wired and labeled with > things like "null modem" "crossover", etc. I even have one labeled > "Laplink parallel". Get enough of these and all you need are > straight-through cables--and maybe a gender changer or two. No > fooling around looking at a cable and saying "I wonder what this is > for..." Yeah, I have a few double-ended adapters with the connections labeled on them, but one of these days would like to get my hands on one that you can patch with jumpers. I've seen those jumpers for 0.025" square posts in catalogs, but have yet to get my hands on any of them, or a suitable adapter to use 'em with. Not that I'm doing all that much with rs232 stuff these days anyway... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From grant at stockly.com Tue Jun 5 11:40:26 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 08:40:26 -0800 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46653F7C.8030909@comcast.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070605083859.03271a50@pop.1and1.com> At 02:48 AM 6/5/2007, you wrote: >The PCBCart actual cost after shipping is $28 >I have to make some beer money, my day job pays the bills :) Your chinese guys can do good I guess... >Sullins does have 2 options for the pin spacing, The Imsai has 0.250" >spacing. I'm sure that's the same as the other machines(haven't looked >inside my SOL). > >The connectors do get alot cheaper at qty.50, then it's only $9ea >I'm always looking for more suppliers. I'll have to get them to requote my connectors. The Altair uses a .125 row spacing.. That might be why mine are more expensive. From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 5 13:39:42 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 19:39:42 +0100 Subject: TESTFDC usage Message-ID: <003501c7a7a0$e313cc80$5b01a8c0@uatempname> I've been checking through the stuff I have around here and I've decided that I have a few surplus PC mobos that I'll be getting rid of (via a certain auction site). Before I do I thought I'd try them out with TESTFDC and see what it says. I have three 5.25" drives (of currently unknown functionality) which I could use. One is a DEC RX33, one is a Tandon TM75-8 and the last one is a Sankyo (or that might just be the motor manufacturer :-)). I also have whatever is sitting in my main machine, but I'm not keen to drag that out just foir fun! I also have a few 1.44MB 3.5" drives, but they've not been used in quite some time, so heaven knows what state they are in. So what do I need to do to extract the maximum useful information about these motherboards (aside, that is, from checking that they are not already on the list :-))? And exactly what media will I need? Should I test both 3.5" and 5.25" (I've not tried the 300/360 mod yet; I may do in the future, but for now I'd just like to get some testing done)? Anything to watch out for? Any particular version of DOS recommended (I have 6.2? kicking around, would FreeDOS do if that is easier to find)? Thanks Antonio From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 5 14:06:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 13:06:16 -0600 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <46654282.8000909@comcast.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604234151.0368cde0@pop.1and1.com> <46654282.8000909@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4665B428.3080604@jetnet.ab.ca> Dan wrote: > > PCBExpress has some good prices for the barebones > I'll have to put that at the top of my list. > But not for pcb's with all the options. The PCB's are no problem where you source them. How ever what about the BOX to put the mother boards in. That is problem for me any how. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jun 4 03:31:15 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 09:31:15 +0100 Subject: S-100 Systems Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F97@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Having read all the correspondence on S-100 systems there are three possibilities. 1. Restoration 2. Reproduction or Replica 3. Reinvention Restoration In a restoration you are trying to get the system back to what it was when first made. So when possible you would use components made at the same time the system was. Can be done and is done. Does need a knowledge of older electronics and good parts sources. Reproduction or Replica Here you are attempting to make a system as close to the original design as possible but using recently manufactured versions of the original components. Where do you draw the line? Well FWIW my take on this is if it fits in the original holes and performs the same function or is the same value then the fact that it may not look exactly the same as the original is OK. Makes a nice kit project. My preference would be a Northstar Horizon. (wood effect box and all) As far as I know nobody owns the rights and the company was not sold it just folded up. Reinvention Say a copy of old S-100 system on the outside only That means the box and front panel are new but as the original. Inside,there are new electronics simulating the old system. Good route for the run the old software fans. Rod Smallwood From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jun 4 03:43:45 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 09:43:45 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F98@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi And now something for all you Decsperts to get your teeth into. My VAX4000-300 is failing the self test. After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test C5. Does anybody know what test C5 tests. If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a problem. Rod Smallwood From mmcarmo at adelphia.net Mon Jun 4 16:16:41 2007 From: mmcarmo at adelphia.net (Mary) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 17:16:41 -0400 Subject: B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner Message-ID: <000501c7a6ed$a5940630$0300a8c0@Kara> Hi John, I just purchased a B&C Microsystems 1409 Programmer. Do you have the manual? If so, I'd appreciate a copy. Sincerely, David From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 4 17:41:36 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 18:41:36 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <0JJ400CEUV00EHEQ@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:38:18 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Grant Stockly wrote: >> >> > Someone built one of my Altair replica PCBs and went to great lengths to >> > make sure the date code on the ICs was older than 1975. They also >> > sourced the old brown cylindrical resistors. > >I've been known to do that, but for much more trivial examples - when >I built my 1976-design Elf, I did the best I could on chips (my CPU >and memory were of the period, but I have not yet tracked down a 74L00 >for the clock divider circuit), but I was happy to have a bin of ;) L00? I bet I have a few that are pre ELF. >vintage brown cylindrical resistors for the pullups. I had to >compromise on the regulator - the oldest one I could find in my junk >bin was an LM340T. I have a shopping bag of those resistor, really! the LM340 was period and valid but, I have 7805s that are date coded 7951 (last week of '79). Somewhere I came across a few baggies of them as they are handy. I also have 1uS 2102s, 5101 and other old ram. >Obviously, the computer doesn't care, but I wanted something that >would have looked as if I had made it when I first got into computers >as a kid. A complete indulgence to nostalgia. :) they dont care. I tend to build new hardware using that old stuff as I've had it for that reason, that is to build with. > >-ethan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jun 4 20:32:54 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 02:32:54 +0100 Subject: Repairing the damage. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F9D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I probably failed to make my self clear. 1. Yes MOP is part of a whole heap of programs that go to make up DECNET 2. MOP stands for Maintenance Operations Protocol and that what is was for. 3 It pre dates DECnet (Well at lest internally in DEC) 4. It can be run on its own. 5. It's a much lower level system than LAT or LAVC that run at the application (top) level of the OSI Model 6. It runs at the network level (Layer 3) in the seven layer OSI model 7. Of course there is a physical network and enough of a driver in the firmware in the target VAX to exchange frames with the MOP running in the boot server. (I found a list of them) So in that sense it is running a subset of Decnet. However let's not confuse a low level maintenance tool with all the good stuff the full version of Decnet gives you. 8. Its twenty-five years since I was a product manager in DEC SWS. No wonder I'm a bit hazy on this stuff! Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: 04 June 2007 14:14 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Repairing the damage. At 04:23 PM 6/3/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >Your server (the VAX 4000-200) does have to be running DECnet. Er no it >doesn't and isn't. I attended a 1976 DEC engineering meeting where this >was discussed. It just my personal memory has a long access time. >Download and run was around long before Decnet was thought of. I'm not sure why I'm responding to this troll, but I can't resist. The server must be running a MOP listener. That's the protocol that the client uses when you boot the ethernet device. MOP is a DECnet protocol. For many versions of VMS, the way you get a MOP listener is to install DECnet. For VMS 7.0 and later, there's a separate MOP listener that provides just that part of DECnet. >There's no Decnet or any other normal network involved. Crap. You MUST have a network to run a Local Area VAXcluster. You know, a *Local Area Network*? LAVC booting uses DECnet to boot. You can't make any of this work without a LAN, without DECnet. I suppose you'll keep flailing around hoping that something will work, blaming others for your mistakes. Enjoy yourself. >I am also >beginning to suspect that the whole cluster thing is another GRH (Giant >Red Herring) Huh? Nope, if you followed the very detailed directions you've been given, you could diskless boot the server. You could then try to get a disk set up and booted. Not a red herring at all. >Whats actually happening is an old diagnostic tool is being used to >download and run a program on a remote system to exclude the disk >drives from the test. LANCP is not an "old diagnostic tool" it's actually fairly recent. Using CLUSTER_CONFIG as you're supposed to will use it to set up the client download. Did you try that? Probably not. -Rick From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jun 4 20:44:25 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 02:44:25 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F9E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I would be interested if the shipping cost to the UK is not too much. A single 12 slot board with connectors but no metal work or card guides would Be as stripped down as you could go. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith Sent: 04 June 2007 07:41 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available On Mon, 4 Jun 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >On top of that, S100 motherboards are still fairly easy to find. If > anyone's >interested, I'll have some ready for sale in a couple weeks. > > And how much will they cost ? > Populated? > Whats included? > How many slots? I'm not sure how much they'll cost. Most of them are 12-slot boards, mostly Morrow Wunderbuss models of one sort or another. There's a big CompuPro chassis with 20-slot board and power supply. I also have a bunch of assorted cards. With summer approaching, I'll likely have more time to sell off this stuff. Oh, and those of you who wanted those 8-inch drives, I still have your names. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Jun 4 23:40:48 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:40:48 -0700 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4664E950.5070708@msu.edu> One other thing to note: As far as I know (and please, please correct me if I'm wrong -- I'd love to be wrong in this case :)) if you find yourself in the unfortunate situation of having wiped/unbootable drives in your 3640, your only real option to get Genera reloaded on the drives is to send them out to Dave Schmidt and have him do the install for you. (It cost me $300 for a Genera license for my 3630 and to have it installed on the drive I sent to him.) To the best of my knowledge the software necessary to format the drive and write out the bad block map, etc, is still Symbolics-proprietary and has not been released publicly. (I believe Dave referred to this as the "Chatsworth" Genera distribution when I asked.) If anyone knows different or has a copy of software that will do this, I'd love to get a copy -- I'm out of space on my 3630 and I have several compatible ESDI drives, but no means to make them usable to the machine. Almost ready to send them out to Dave, but not quite yet :). - Josh Brad Parker wrote: > "Keys" wrote: > >> Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a Symbolics >> model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all the needed >> cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two hard drives >> mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some software. Anyone >> would information please email me. >> > > I'm not sure abot power on a 3640. My 3630 has stock power cord. The > "refrigerator" 3600's are another matter - those are circular but you > can make an adapter easily. > > (if I remember right the 3640 is just an "L" machine - i.e. stock TTL; > the 3630 is a G machine, which has FPGA's) > > You're going to need a keyboard. And more important, a cable from the > monitor to the machine. > > If you are luck it will just boot. Does it have a cart tape drive? if > so, assume the roller is goo. I would not use it unless you replace the > rubber parts. > > I would get in touch with David Schmidt in VA. He can get a keyboard > for you and a monitor cable. > > -brad > > > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 5 01:37:02 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 07:37:02 +0100 Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Well done that guy!! What you have done is both the spirit and the essence of classic computing. You are to be congratulated on both effort and persistence. "A shining light to lead others into the darkness of old computer restoration" I was at DEC (UK) in the 70's and Modcomp would pop up as competition from time to time. Hasn't that front panel got DEC overtones? Is there a keyboard terminal or screen with it? Rod Smallwood DecCollector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley Sent: 05 June 2007 05:07 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... A number of you probably remember me "announcing" in Jan, 2007 that I had rescued a MODCOMP II/12 from a lab here in Silicon Valley. The link for that is below (sorry, it's slow - the pictures are large). http://bickleywest.com/modcomp.htm After a lot of work cleaning up both the CPU and I/O chassis I began checking out the system. It turned out that the I/O chassis was in pretty bad shape. I went back to the lab facility where I found the MODCOMP II - looked through several more buildings - and found another lone MODCOMP II I/O chassis. I went through the "salvage" process again - and finally picked it up about a month ago. It was in a lot better shape than the original I/O unit. And the really great news - it was an identical configuration to my original I/O chassis. After cleaning it up, doing all the usual capacitor, power supply checking - I powered it up - and everything "looked" good - and no bad "cooking" smells ;-) I cabled up the CPU and I/O unit, powered 'em up - and to my amazement the front panel controls seemed to work O.K. I then did the usual hand memory tests - and core memory worked O.K. every location I tested. I then wrote a bunch of small diagnostics (in machine code) - and found that I/O was not easy to code - but I did enough to check that the console in/out ports worked O.K. Today I loaded diagnostic monitors, and diags - and most of the system - including I/O is working! The really good news is that all 64K (words) of core memory passed the long manufacturing memory diagnostic - which even tests for "hot cores" failing. It's been months in the making this critter come alive - but it sure feels great when the diagnostics tell you that you are on the right track :-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Jun 5 11:42:12 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 09:42:12 -0700 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: References: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4664E950.5070708@msu.edu> Message-ID: <46659264.4070101@msu.edu> I'd definitely be interested to know the procedure. I've initialized and duplicated disks several times with SCSI disks on my XL1201, but I've had no luck with ESDI drives on my 3630. The "Disk Format" FEP command on the 3600 seems only to format the disk -- it does not create a bad block map; attempting to create a FEP Filesystem on the disk fails afterwards. If you can dig up the procedure when you have the time, I'd appreciate it :). Thanks, Josh r.stricklin wrote: > > On Jun 4, 2007, at 9:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> If anyone knows different or has a copy of software that will do >> this, I'd love to get a copy -- I'm out of space on my 3630 and I >> have several compatible ESDI drives, but no means to make them usable >> to the machine. Almost ready to send them out to Dave, but not quite >> yet :). > > Josh; > > The special software is only for bringing up Genera from the FEP (bare > metal); it's called the Breath Of Life tape. Once you have LISP > running, Genera includes all the tools you need to initialize another > disk and bring it up. In fact you can bypass the need for a BOL tape > entirely, if you have access to a second system. > > I used to have the procedure, but by now it'll take me a while to find > it again. > > ok > bear > > From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 5 16:54:16 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 22:54:16 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F98@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004c01c7a7bc$11508b90$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test > C5. > > Does anybody know what test C5 tests. > If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a > problem. When I had a KZQSA in a VAX 4000-500 I found that it would fail self-test if either port was left unterminated. I would not be surprised if an unterminated DSSI port had the same effect. Does it still boot if you make it boot manually (i.e. is the error fatal or does it just interfere with automatic booting?) Antonio From go at ao.com Tue Jun 5 18:08:25 2007 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:08:25 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4665ECE9.4030601@ao.com> Does anyone need the schematics for a TEC 2402? A friend of mine long ago disposed of his old TEC 2402, but recently found his Reference Drawings (965025-001) for the beast. Knowing that I 'collect' (accrete more like) old computer stuff, he gave the prints to me. If anyone is interested, I can snail them out. The print set is about 18 inches by 12 inches by .300 inches. It's basically a bound stack of blue prints about 3/8 inch thick. Dates from 1974/75. Perhaps it should pass though Al's hands before it goes to its final resting place... For reference, this is TEC Incorporated of 2727 North Fairview Ave., Tuscon Arizona. -Gary Rick Bensene wrote: > I have an old glass TTY-type terminal made by a company called TEC. > It consists of two parts. The first part contains the main logic, all > on a board mounted in the back of the chassis), the video electronics, > power supply, and high-voltage power supply, along with monitor. The > second part is a rather clunky keyboard that attaches to the first part > with a connector cable. > > The cabinets are painted almost an IBM-style blue. I don't know the > model number off the top of my head, but was wondering if anyone out > there knows anything about the history of these terminals. The thing > gives off vibes of being from the mid to late 1970's. The logic IIRC is > mostly TTL. Don't know what it uses for memory, but whatever it is, > it's got to be solid state, either shift registers, or RAM. > > The thing powers up, and shows a display with some "large" and "small" > characters (it appears to have two different font sizes), and a blinking > cursor which appears in multiple places on the screen, but doesn't > respond to any keyboard input. It has a DB-25 RS-232 connector > apparently for hooking up to a computer, but I don't know if it's wired > as DTE or DCE. There are also a bunch of dip switches on the logic > circuit board, which I assume are for setting up things like baud rate, > stop bits, number of bits, > Duplex, along with other options. There is also another DB-25 connector > on the back that appears as if it might be a "pass through" for > connecting a serial printer or something like that. > > The terminal is packed away right now, but some of the recent talk about > the old Hazeltine terminals made me think of it. If there's interest, I > can dig it out and take some photos and put them up on a website for > viewing if that might help. Of course, once I dig it out, I can > probably ID the model number, then do a web search to see if I can find > anything out there, but figured I'd ask here first to see if anyone has > any information on the company or their terminals. > > Thanks in advance. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Web Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > From dave at mitton.com Tue Jun 5 18:30:11 2007 From: dave at mitton.com (dave at mitton.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 23:30:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DECnet and MOP Message-ID: <4970113.1181086211496.JavaMail.?@fh1037.dia.cp.net> >Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 02:32:54 +0100 >From: "Rod Smallwood" > Subject: RE: Repairing the damage. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > ... >I probably failed to make my self clear. > > 1. Yes MOP is part of a whole heap of programs that go to > make up DECNET > > 2. MOP stands for Maintenance Operations Protocol and that > what is was for. > > 3 It pre dates DECnet (Well at lest internally in DEC) MOP is part of the DECnet architecture set, and like DECnet has gone through a number of versions, and releases. It actually underwent a boom in the later years, as Ethernet got cheap and diskless network devices became attractive. It is a simple lower level datagram protocol, and does not need the normal session stack to run. In smarter network devices, a MOP bootstrap can be in the device ROM. All that said; architecture, implementation, and deployment vary with platforms and time. For those that grew up on TCP/IP only (and thus doomed to repeat the past), it is best to think of MOP as the DECnet analog of BOOTP, with a little bit of DHCP and ARP sprinkled in. ... > 8. Its twenty-five years since I was a product manager in > DEC SWS. No wonder I'm a bit hazy on this stuff! > > Regards > Rod Smallwood There's your problem. I was a software engineer for DECnet-RSX, DECnet-PRO, DECnet-DOS, and PATHWorks. I was also the architect of the DAP Protocol v6 and a DECnet Token Ring Datalink. The later included MOP specfications too. I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. Dave. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jun 5 19:26:11 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 17:26:11 -0700 Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706051726.11546.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hi Rod, On Monday 04 June 2007 23:37, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > Well done that guy!! > > What you have done is both the spirit and the essence of classic > computing. > You are to be congratulated on both effort and persistence. Thanks. Lots of work - but mostly fun :-) > "A shining light to lead others into the darkness of old computer > restoration" Blush... I do my best - I'm on both the PDP-1 and IBM 1620 Restoration Teams at the Computer History Museum... > I was at DEC (UK) in the 70's and Modcomp would pop up as competition > from time to time. > > Hasn't that front panel got DEC overtones? A bit - but so do most Minicomputers in the mid-70's ;-) It's different from most DEC minicomputers in that you can access not only the systems 15 general purpose registers, PC, etc. but also about 40 other internal registers and status conditions. You can also modify most of them from the front panel! (BTW: It has a "protect" switch to keep the wrong folks from doing nasty things when in operation - and also internal protection mechanisms, etc.) It's different enough that when I move from my 8/E, 11/34C or 11/83 to the MODCOMP - it takes me a while to get "used to" the MODCOMP. MODCOMP also interprets all operations and logic in HEX as opposed to OCTAL. > Is there a keyboard terminal or screen with it? It has a RS-232 async port for a console terminal. Other I/O is: Two additional async ports, one high speed serial link for networking (200KHz) and a paper tape reader port. There also a "plane" that was built by the customer that I'm still trying to find docs for in the customers "archives" with lots of other I/O. BTW: One can attach disks to async ports, too :-) Interestingly, you can boot from any readable device on the system with the same boot loader - including async ports! the boot loader is very gnarly - only 8 instructions long - and it took me hours to figure out how it works (hint: it uses self modifying code to load a secondary boot which then loads the program you are booting). Cheers, Lyle > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley > Sent: 05 June 2007 05:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... > > A number of you probably remember me "announcing" in Jan, 2007 that I > had rescued a MODCOMP II/12 from a lab here in Silicon Valley. The link > for that is below (sorry, it's slow - the pictures are large). > > http://bickleywest.com/modcomp.htm > > After a lot of work cleaning up both the CPU and I/O chassis I began > checking out the system. It turned out that the I/O chassis was in > pretty bad shape. > > I went back to the lab facility where I found the MODCOMP II - looked > through several more buildings - and found another lone MODCOMP II I/O > chassis. I went through the "salvage" process again - and finally picked > it up about a month ago. > > It was in a lot better shape than the original I/O unit. And the really > great news - it was an identical configuration to my original I/O > chassis. > > After cleaning it up, doing all the usual capacitor, power supply > checking - I powered it up - and everything "looked" good - and no bad > "cooking" > smells ;-) > > I cabled up the CPU and I/O unit, powered 'em up - and to my amazement > the front panel controls seemed to work O.K. > > I then did the usual hand memory tests - and core memory worked O.K. > every location I tested. > > I then wrote a bunch of small diagnostics (in machine code) - and found > that I/O was not easy to code - but I did enough to check that the > console in/out ports worked O.K. > > Today I loaded diagnostic monitors, and diags - and most of the system - > including I/O is working! The really good news is that all 64K (words) > of core memory passed the long manufacturing memory diagnostic - which > even tests for "hot cores" failing. > > It's been months in the making this critter come alive - but it sure > feels great when the diagnostics tell you that you are on the right > track :-) > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > Mountain View, CA > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jun 5 20:57:39 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 18:57:39 -0700 Subject: Got a LISP Machine on Sunday In-Reply-To: <46659264.4070101@msu.edu> References: <200706042307.l54N75em003182@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4664E950.5070708@msu.edu> <46659264.4070101@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Jun 5, 2007, at 9:42 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I'd definitely be interested to know the procedure. I've > initialized and duplicated disks several times with SCSI disks on > my XL1201, but I've had no luck with ESDI drives on my 3630. The > "Disk Format" FEP command on the 3600 seems only to format the disk > -- it does not create a bad block map; attempting to create a FEP > Filesystem on the disk fails afterwards. According to Dave Schmidt, the "Disk Format" command you get after scanning disk.flod in the FEP: "I have never used this command and have been told that its performance cannot be guaranteed." It creates an empty bad block file. You add blocks to it one at a time with this command: (si:fix-fep-block unit cylinder head sector &key :force-write-test). This must be done from LISP, which obviously must be running. Cylinder, head and sector must be entered in octal. After you finish, you can also fill the disk with test files and run (si:fix-fep-file "path") to try to pick up any additional bad blocks. I don't know if you knew this; the FEP cannot allocate new files in the FEP filesystem, but it can overwrite existing files. The IFS (initial filesystem) tape restores to FEP files which have already been allocated by the BOL procedure. LISP can allocate new files in the FEP filesystem, but if you don't have LISP running, there's a chicken-and-egg problem. > If you can dig up the procedure when you have the time, I'd > appreciate it :). I'll put it on my list. Remind me if you don't hear anything after a while. ok bear From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jun 5 23:09:34 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 05:09:34 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? References: Message-ID: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....hard to get new CRT monitors now and the cheap LCD ones are >rubbish! Cheap nothing, I've never seen *ANY* LCD monitor (either fabulously expensive or dirt cheap) which I would describe as being anything other than diabolical! The same goes for LCD TVs too - and plasma sets aren't much better in my opinion. The people who buy these things must be profoundly blind if they're satisfied with the picture quality produced by the current generations of plasma/LCD screens, the technology simply isn't anywhere near good enough yet. >....We'll soon be reduced to scouring eBay for real monitors :-) Quite, which is why I recently spend several months tracking down a very nice, 32" wide screen *CRT* TV set; which I got for next to nothing since the market is currently flooded with this LCD rubbish. :-) TTFN - Pete. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 18:01:00 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 19:01:00 -0400 Subject: Vintage Mac II NuBus video card identification Message-ID: <009001c7a7c5$630bc4a0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I recently came into possession of a vintage video card apparently for a NuBus Mac II. Can anyone help identify it? I do not have a Mac so I cannot plug it into anything. It is a two card video board from Rasterops with an apparent NuBus connector. The boards both say "RASTEROPS CORP MADE IN U.S.A." The main board says "(C) 1987" and the daughterboard says "(C) 1988" The back of the main card says "P.C.B. 0001-0013 REV. XB1" The back of the daughter card says "P.C.B. 0001-0019 REV. 01" There are no visible FCC IDs anywhere on the card but may be buried under the circuitry. I have not disassembled the card. Here are some photos of the card. ?Any information would be appreciated, even confirming what Mac II NuBus video card this model is NOT would be helpful. ?Based on an earlier post on "comp.sys.mac.graphics" with responses and some clues, I suspect it to be a RasterOps 24L card cannot confirm it. http://www.geocities.com/lynchaj/img_3023.jpg http://www.geocities.com/lynchaj/img_3024.jpg http://www.geocities.com/lynchaj/img_3025.jpg Thanks in advance! Andrew Lynch From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jun 5 23:53:22 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 01:53:22 -0300 Subject: Newton Messagepad spare parts References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <02ca01c7a7f6$e5fe2520$f0fea8c0@alpha> Hmm...Is a messagepad on topic? Anyway, I'm in a need of a new (or used in good condition) digitizer. Anyone can help? Thanks, Alexandre From g-wright at att.net Wed Jun 6 01:32:10 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:32:10 +0000 Subject: AT&T dumb terminals available Seattle WA. Message-ID: <060620070632.28741.466654E90005BE880000704521587667559B0809079D99D309@att.net> Have a few AT&T terminals free for local pickup. I'm located in Kent, Wa. South of Seattle. These have been tested. Models 513 and 615. include keyboards (80's vintage) -Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Jun 6 05:49:06 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:49:06 -0400 Subject: New DEC problem In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F98@EDISERVER.EDICONS.l ocal> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F98@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706061049.l56An7Zq022067@mail.itm-inst.com> At 04:43 AM 6/4/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi > And now something for all you Decsperts to get your teeth into. >My VAX4000-300 is failing the self test. > >After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test >C5. > >Does anybody know what test C5 tests. >If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a >problem. According to the KA670 Tech Manual (EK-KA670-TM, it's on bitsavers.) the C5 diagnostic is for the system support chip. I don't know if an unterminated DSSI will cause this, but it's plausible. Hopefully this additional information will elicit a more helpful reply. -Rick From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 5 23:45:42 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 05:45:42 +0100 Subject: My Collection Profile Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> The story so far: VAX 4000-200 x1 VAX 4000-300 x1 PDP11/94 x4 No CPU cards SA600 (4 x RA92) x1 SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 VT420 x3 VT320 x1 VT330 x1 LA75 x3 Of these, plus other (Non-Dec kit) for sale or swap (All funds to save other old DEC kit) PDP 11/94 (No cpu cards) x2 VT 420 x2 LA75 x2 HP 700 Terminal x1 HP 2392A Terminal x1 Shiva LAN Rover x1 Victor PC in pristine condx. X1 SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 Wish list PDP-8/E KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) x 4 Replacements for the missing 11/94 CPU MSV11-JE x 4 " " 11/94 Memory VT05 VT100 VT220 LA36 LA180 DELNI DECSA Rainbow Anything else with a DEC label I can lift and and will fit into the car. Objectives Working Examples of PDP8 , PDP11, and VAX systems. DECNet Network to connect the above. Working Examples of VT100, VT200, VT300, VT400, and VT500 series terminals Decserver 200 connecting the above to the network Working Examples of LA series terminals/printers Rod Smallwood From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 00:03:49 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 06:03:49 +0100 Subject: DECnet and MOP Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA8@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi It would appear we are saying the same thing. It looks like I got reasonably close and you are confiming that I'll also take it that my interpretation of the relative positions in the OSI model etc. are OK. You imply this anyway. Would you mind answering one or two DECnet questions? Regards Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dave at mitton.com Sent: 06 June 2007 00:30 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DECnet and MOP >Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 02:32:54 +0100 >From: "Rod Smallwood" > Subject: RE: Repairing the damage. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > ... >I probably failed to make my self clear. > > 1. Yes MOP is part of a whole heap of programs that go to make up > DECNET > > 2. MOP stands for Maintenance Operations Protocol and that > what is was for. > > 3 It pre dates DECnet (Well at lest internally in DEC) MOP is part of the DECnet architecture set, and like DECnet has gone through a number of versions, and releases. It actually underwent a boom in the later years, as Ethernet got cheap and diskless network devices became attractive. It is a simple lower level datagram protocol, and does not need the normal session stack to run. In smarter network devices, a MOP bootstrap can be in the device ROM. All that said; architecture, implementation, and deployment vary with platforms and time. For those that grew up on TCP/IP only (and thus doomed to repeat the past), it is best to think of MOP as the DECnet analog of BOOTP, with a little bit of DHCP and ARP sprinkled in. ... > 8. Its twenty-five years since I was a product manager in DEC SWS. No > wonder I'm a bit hazy on this stuff! > > Regards > Rod Smallwood There's your problem. I was a software engineer for DECnet-RSX, DECnet-PRO, DECnet-DOS, and PATHWorks. I was also the architect of the DAP Protocol v6 and a DECnet Token Ring Datalink. The later included MOP specfications too. I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. Dave. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 00:10:56 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 06:10:56 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Boot, well sort of. Its down loading a file from a boot server using BOOT EZA0 (The ethernet port). That it does OK and on the boot server it says download OK. However it does not run the downloaded file. I may have the wrong one. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 05 June 2007 22:54 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: New DEC problem Rod Smallwood wrote: > After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test > C5. > > Does anybody know what test C5 tests. > If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a > problem. When I had a KZQSA in a VAX 4000-500 I found that it would fail self-test if either port was left unterminated. I would not be surprised if an unterminated DSSI port had the same effect. Does it still boot if you make it boot manually (i.e. is the error fatal or does it just interfere with automatic booting?) Antonio From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 6 08:34:37 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:34:37 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <003501c7a7a0$e313cc80$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <200706061237.l56Cb5Sj012854@hosting.monisys.ca> > I have three 5.25" drives (of currently unknown functionality) which I > could use. Drives of known functionality will usually give more meaningful TESTFDC results. > One is a DEC RX33, one is a Tandon TM75-8 and the last one > is a Sankyo (or that might just be the motor manufacturer :-)). I also > have whatever is sitting in my main machine, but I'm not keen to > drag that out just foir fun! I also have a few 1.44MB 3.5" drives, but > they've not been used in quite some time, so heaven knows what state > they are in. I would recommend testing the drives on a known good system first. Unless you know the drives are good, you can't trust the TESTFDC results (A failure could be indicative of a bad drive, not a FDC limitation). > So what do I need to do to extract the maximum useful information > about these motherboards (aside, that is, from checking that they > are not already on the list :-))? And exactly what media will I need? > > Should I test both 3.5" and 5.25" (I've not tried the 300/360 mod yet; > I may do in the future, but for now I'd just like to get some > testing done)? To completely test the FDC, you need to check Single, Double and Double/128 at each of 250, 300 and 500 kbps rates. These are represented in a standard PC at: 250 = 5.25 low-density drive only, 3.5" low-density diskette 300 = 5.25 Low-density diskette in high-density drive 500 = 5.25" or 2.5" high-density diskette So to check all possible data rates without a 300/360 modded drive, you need to run two tests - either the 5.25" LD and HD drives, or a 5.25" HD and 3.5" drive. > Anything to watch out for? As noted above, make sure your drives are working - Ideally they should have recently passed the tests you are about to run when installed in a system with a known good FDC. > Any particular version of DOS recommended (I have 6.2? kicking around, > would FreeDOS do if that is easier to find)? It shouldn't matter - TESTFDC talks to the hardware directly. Just don't have any TSR's or other resident software loaded which might touch the FDC (best to run under bare DOS). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Jun 6 07:44:27 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 08:44:27 -0400 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070605083859.03271a50@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022F8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <5.2.1.1.0.20070603122338.033fc9b8@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604101258.035ef990@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070604195543.034439b0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070605083859.03271a50@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4666AC2B.6070306@comcast.net> Grant Stockly wrote: > At 02:48 AM 6/5/2007, you wrote: > >> The PCBCart actual cost after shipping is $28 >> I have to make some beer money, my day job pays the bills :) > > Your chinese guys can do good I guess... It's nothing new, the big guys (insert company here) use them frequently. > > >> Sullins does have 2 options for the pin spacing, The Imsai has 0.250" >> spacing. I'm sure that's the same as the other machines(haven't >> looked inside my SOL). >> >> The connectors do get alot cheaper at qty.50, then it's only $9ea >> I'm always looking for more suppliers. > > I'll have to get them to requote my connectors. The Altair uses a > .125 row spacing.. That might be why mine are more expensive. Ask for Rachel Villarreal x119 rachel at edgecards.com =Dan [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 6 08:10:02 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 09:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The people who buy these things must be profoundly blind if they're > satisfied with the picture quality produced by the current > generations of plasma/LCD screens, the technology simply isn't > anywhere near good enough yet. Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I find I get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens as compared to CRTs. I don't know whether this just means every CRT I've used has been crap, or perhaps I *am* "profoundly blind", but even if so, in my experience the comparison stands. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 6 08:19:02 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 14:19:02 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/34 front panel, for cost of postage Message-ID: <4666B446.3050109@dunnington.plus.com> Still clearing things out... I found a spare PDP-11/34 front panel -- the "Programmer's" type, with the octal display and octal keypad. Complete with all the cables but does not include the KY11-L SPC card that would control it. Free for cost of postage from York, UK. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 08:34:36 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:34:36 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4666B7EC.6030801@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> The people who buy these things must be profoundly blind if they're >> satisfied with the picture quality produced by the current >> generations of plasma/LCD screens, the technology simply isn't >> anywhere near good enough yet. > > Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I find I > get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens as compared > to CRTs. > > I don't know whether this just means every CRT I've used has been crap, > or perhaps I *am* "profoundly blind", but even if so, in my experience > the comparison stands. I use a high-end flat-panel at work and a high-end CRT at home and my experience suggests that good ones still aren't quite as fast as the *best* CRTs, and they can't compete with phosphor persistence for smoothness but the difference is very quickly going away. It won't be long before there's effectively none. Any top-end CRT (of which they don't make many anymore -- a shame -- I buy mine used nowadays) will also have easily higher resolution than a flat panel of similar size. But the flat panels use *soo* much less power. Try mine. Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2040u. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 6 09:10:08 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:10:08 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200706061010.09038.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 06 June 2007 09:10, der Mouse wrote: > > The people who buy these things must be profoundly blind if they're > > satisfied with the picture quality produced by the current > > generations of plasma/LCD screens, the technology simply isn't > > anywhere near good enough yet. > > Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I find I > get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens as > compared to CRTs. > > I don't know whether this just means every CRT I've used has been > crap, or perhaps I *am* "profoundly blind", but even if so, in my > experience the comparison stands. No, I think 99% of most people (well, those that don't completely reject modern technology because it's modern ;) would agree with you. Gaming (speed of display) and color rendition are the only real two niches left for CRTs, and LCDs are quickly approaching CRT quality for those areas... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 09:35:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:35:19 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706061010.09038.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200706061010.09038.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 6/6/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Gaming (speed of display) and color rendition are the only real two > niches left for CRTs, and LCDs are quickly approaching CRT quality for > those areas... I haven't done much (any?) high-intensity gaming on LCDs - just old-school games like Master of Orion or Starcraft (or Zork ;-) so I can't comment on LCD smear, though I know abstractly it's an issue. Personally, though, I've spent a lot of time in the past four years in front of LCDs - more than CRTs (laptops, modern flat panels, etc). I happen to be on an older Sun monitor at the moment, and it's annoyingly fuzzy at 1152x900 compared to my 1024x768 laptop. The CRT is properly adjusted and looks just as good as the day it shipped (or at least as good as my memories from 10 years ago). It's just not as sharp as a modern LCD. I recall that older (640x400 and 800x600) LCDs aren't as sharp as modern ones, either; they've really crisped up the black and have, as far as I can tell, thinner or optically better front-glass to minimize pixel diffusion. That having been said, though, I would still prefer a CRT for old-school arcade games... who wants crisp edges on Space Invaders or Pacman (or Boot Hill, Seawolf and the _really_ old-school B&W games). I'm seeing LCDs advertised with sub-10ms response time. Since that's faster than NTSC frame-rates, I can't imagine that they look awful compared to a CRT. The question is, how fast is fast enough that it doesn't matter. -ethan From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Wed Jun 6 09:49:42 2007 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now and then. The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jun 6 10:10:46 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:10:46 +0100 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: References: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4666CE76.8060202@philpem.me.uk> Mark KAHRS wrote: > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now > and then. > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? Yeah, me, for one! :) I've got a few TI, Harris, Intersil and Inmos databooks (and the Dallas Semiconductor product line guide and data CD - somewhere - including a bunch of datasheets they recently made NDA-only). I'm also happy to scan and email/upload any datasheets I have if people want/need them. If you're planning to get rid of them, let me know where you are, what you've got and how much you're wanting (assuming you want to sell them, that is). I keep most of my databooks around because Datasheetarchive isn't particularly complete (they do have the Signetics linear PROM datasheets including programming specs though) and I tend to find/buy/receive boards and ICs for which data is no longer available, often to the point where the original manufacturer either no longer exists or denies that the IC in question was ever made. Thanks, -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 10:18:51 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 16:18:51 +0100 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: References: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I do but Im in the wrong country (UK) Dave Caroline On 6/6/07, Mark KAHRS wrote: > > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now > and then. > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 6 10:43:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:43:54 -0600 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:10:46 +0100. <4666CE76.8060202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4666CE76.8060202 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > Mark KAHRS wrote: > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? > > Yeah, me, for one! :) And if you need someone to become custodian of them on the US side of the pond, I can do that. I have a large pile of data books from the late 80s/early 90s, and even those are hard to find online. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 6 11:07:48 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:07:48 -0500 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4666DBD4.5040901@mdrconsult.com> der Mouse wrote: > Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I find I > get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens as compared > to CRTs. > > I don't know whether this just means every CRT I've used has been crap, > or perhaps I *am* "profoundly blind", but even if so, in my experience > the comparison stands. I ditched a recently refurbished and tuned 21" SGI (GDM-5011P) for my 20" Dell flat-panel (2007FP). I would say that both displays are close to the top of their class, as far as comparisons go. I don't play games, so I really don't depend on lightning refresh rates. However, color consistency is at least as good on the Dell, white whites and black blacks are closer to true on the Dell, and after 12 or 16 hours of staring at the screen, the eye-strain is notably less. The Dell also has a considerably bigger viewing area. The rated thermal budget for the Dell is 187 BTU/hr typical, as opposed to ~550 BTU/hr for the 5011P. Living in Texas, just the savings on cooling will pay for the flat panel in a couple of years. And my desk no longer sags in the middle. :) Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 11:26:30 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:26:30 -0400 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <4666DBD4.5040901@mdrconsult.com> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4666DBD4.5040901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 6/6/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > The rated thermal budget for the Dell is 187 BTU/hr typical, as > opposed to ~550 BTU/hr for the 5011P. Living in Texas, just the savings > on cooling will pay for the flat panel in a couple of years. No doubt... I recently switched from a Sun 17E10 to a $5 scratched-up Dell LCD panel I bought at the Mansfield Hamfest, specifically because the room gets to over +90F with the AC off (possible in Ohio, but not pleasant ;-) when the computer and monitor are on. I might switch back to the CRT for the heating season, though. > And my desk no longer sags in the middle. :) Heh... on another desk, I have a Sun 20E20... it's on a 2"x12" shelf that doesn't sag much. -ethan From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 6 11:48:58 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 17:48:58 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <003401c7a85a$95784a40$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > Boot, well sort of. Its down loading a file from a boot server using > BOOT EZA0 (The ethernet port). > That it does OK and on the boot server it says download OK. > However it does not run the downloaded file. I may have the wrong one. If it manages to download something (and thinks that it is successful) then that sounds like a non-fatal error. What are you downloading? Antonio From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jun 6 11:53:08 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:53:08 -0500 Subject: free for shipping: IMS 5000 IS system, from austin, tx, usa Message-ID: <4666E674.1030701@pacbell.net> I have mentioned this system on this list a couple times before. The IMS 5000 IS is a S-100 based multiprocessor system running turbodos 1.3 (an extended multiprocessing CP/M clone). It is a very well built machine, clearly intended for office use. It has a single DSDD 96 tpi 5.25" floppy and a 10 MB hard disk (rodime ro 200). It boots off the hard drive, and couple months ago I spent some time and cracked the login/password file. The floppy disk appears to work (I can "dir" and get files off a floppy created on a PC using the teledisk program). The system doesn't have much on it in the way of development software, just some custom apps written for the dentist's office this came out of. As it is a CP/M system, though, you can use standard CP/M programs on it. The master system has a 8085-based intelligent terminal card, plus a master Z80 CPU and two slave Z80 CPUs. Each cpu has 64 KB of parity checked DRAM. I tried plugging in the slave to the master but I suspect things are not cabled right, as the slave terminal acts as if it is wired in parallel to the master terminal. I'd like to find a new home for this system. I simply don't have enough time to mess with it, and I don't have enough interest to make the time. Here are some a few cruddy pictures: http://home.pacbell.net/frustum/ims5000/ The only problem is that the local/remote key on the slave terminal keyboard is broken off (before I received it). The key still works; you can depress the stub of the plunger that is left, but luckily it is a key that normally doesn't need to be used. This system would be shipped from austin, tx 78737 at your expense. I recommend fedex ground, as it seems to be the least expensive of the majors for heavy items like this. It would be two boxes. I haven't weighed them, but I would guess 50 lbs and 30 lbs. They were shipped to me in their original boxes, and I'd ship them to you the same way. This means that there is a custom foam shell for each unit, but it also means that the original boxes are somewhat tattered and one has been reinforced, so don't wail that I've ruined everything by harming the original boxes. I'll give preference to anybody willing to come and pick them up, soon. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 6 11:51:19 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DECnet and MOP In-Reply-To: <4970113.1181086211496.JavaMail.?@fh1037.dia.cp.net> References: <4970113.1181086211496.JavaMail.?@fh1037.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. I don't suppose you have softcopies? Or that someone else has them available for fetch? I'd like to have a stab at implementing DECnet. (Not because I have any production use for it; just as part of my drive to understand everything - nothing teaches a protocol like implementing it.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 6 12:02:49 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:02:49 +0100 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706061237.l56Cb5Sj012854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <003501c7a85c$8654a3e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I would recommend testing the drives on a known good system first. > Unless you know the drives are good, you can't trust the TESTFDC > results (A failure could be indicative of a bad drive, not a FDC > limitation). What's "good enough" testing? As a minimum I'll boot DOS, format a floppy with the drive and put DOS onto the floppy, then boot the floppy. Is that enough or are there oddball quirks that might be better exposed by something else? > So to check all possible data rates without a 300/360 modded drive, > you need to run two tests - either the 5.25" LD and HD drives, or a > 5.25" HD and 3.5" drive. Good. I should be able to rustle up at least one of those combinations. Thanks Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 6 12:17:36 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:17:36 -0400 Subject: Newton Messagepad spare parts In-Reply-To: <02ca01c7a7f6$e5fe2520$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <02ca01c7a7f6$e5fe2520$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <14518B5F-1E5F-4956-8879-0F694C4BA22A@neurotica.com> On Jun 6, 2007, at 12:53 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Anyway, I'm in a need of a new (or used in good condition) > digitizer. Anyone can help? I don't know if this will be helpful...but I have seen brand new Newton touch pads on eBay over the past several months. New displays, too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From steve at radiorobots.com Wed Jun 6 12:22:56 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:22:56 -0400 Subject: free for shipping: IMS 5000 IS system, from austin, tx, usa In-Reply-To: <4666E674.1030701@pacbell.net> References: <4666E674.1030701@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4666ED70.6040703@radiorobots.com> Hi Jim, Happy to have Fedex come to your door to pick up on my account. Thanks, Steve Boston Jim Battle wrote: > I have mentioned this system on this list a couple times before. The > IMS 5000 IS is a S-100 based multiprocessor system running turbodos > 1.3 (an extended multiprocessing CP/M clone). It is a very well built > machine, clearly intended for office use. > > It has a single DSDD 96 tpi 5.25" floppy and a 10 MB hard disk (rodime > ro 200). It boots off the hard drive, and couple months ago I spent > some time and cracked the login/password file. The floppy disk > appears to work (I can "dir" and get files off a floppy created on a > PC using the teledisk program). > > The system doesn't have much on it in the way of development software, > just some custom apps written for the dentist's office this came out > of. As it is a CP/M system, though, you can use standard CP/M > programs on it. > > The master system has a 8085-based intelligent terminal card, plus a > master Z80 CPU and two slave Z80 CPUs. Each cpu has 64 KB of parity > checked DRAM. > > I tried plugging in the slave to the master but I suspect things are > not cabled right, as the slave terminal acts as if it is wired in > parallel to the master terminal. > > I'd like to find a new home for this system. I simply don't have > enough time to mess with it, and I don't have enough interest to make > the time. > > Here are some a few cruddy pictures: > > http://home.pacbell.net/frustum/ims5000/ > > The only problem is that the local/remote key on the slave terminal > keyboard is broken off (before I received it). The key still works; > you can depress the stub of the plunger that is left, but luckily it > is a key that normally doesn't need to be used. > > This system would be shipped from austin, tx 78737 at your expense. I > recommend fedex ground, as it seems to be the least expensive of the > majors for heavy items like this. It would be two boxes. I haven't > weighed them, but I would guess 50 lbs and 30 lbs. They were shipped > to me in their original boxes, and I'd ship them to you the same way. > This means that there is a custom foam shell for each unit, but it > also means that the original boxes are somewhat tattered and one has > been reinforced, so don't wail that I've ruined everything by harming > the original boxes. > > I'll give preference to anybody willing to come and pick them up, soon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 6 12:17:29 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:17:29 -0500 Subject: DEC parts code reference? Message-ID: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Out of interest (and to my shame, without googling first :-), did DEC (or a third party) ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" against function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.) I'm trying to sort out our documentation archives, and DEC seem very good at just listing the codes as title ("DZ11-C technical manual" etc.) on a lot of their docs - meaning I have to skim pages to get a handle on what the thing actually is) cheers Jules From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jun 6 11:30:40 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:30:40 -0300 Subject: TESTFDC usage Message-ID: <01C7A83F.000852E0@mandr71> --------Original Message: Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:34:37 -0500 From: "Dave Dunfield" Subject: Re: TESTFDC usage To completely test the FDC, you need to check Single, Double and Double/128 at each of 250, 300 and 500 kbps rates. These are represented in a standard PC at: 250 = 5.25 low-density drive only, 3.5" low-density diskette 300 = 5.25 Low-density diskette in high-density drive 500 = 5.25" or 2.5" high-density diskette So to check all possible data rates without a 300/360 modded drive, you need to run two tests - either the 5.25" LD and HD drives, or a 5.25" HD and 3.5" drive. ---------------------- I also wanted to do some testing but, despite our off-list correspondence, I'm still confused: 5.25" drive, 3.5" diskette ??? 2.5" diskette ??? 3.5" drive - LD or HD? Exactly what tests should be run with what size/density disk in what size/ density/speed drive in order to get a complete picture? mike From pechter at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 12:31:03 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:31:03 -0400 Subject: DECnet and MOP In-Reply-To: <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4970113.1181086211496.JavaMail.?@fh1037.dia.cp.net> <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 6/6/07, der Mouse wrote: > > > I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. > > I don't suppose you have softcopies? Or that someone else has them > available for fetch? > > I'd like to have a stab at implementing DECnet. (Not because I have > any production use for it; just as part of my drive to understand > everything - nothing teaches a protocol like implementing it.) > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Softcopies linked to on http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/docs/doc_index.html -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 12:33:02 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:33:02 -0500 Subject: My Collection Profile In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FA7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <624966d60706061033t2143d491t543117ffec39300@mail.gmail.com> Hi Rod, I have most of the items on your wish list, but I'm in the states. Thanks, Paul On 6/5/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > The story so far: > > VAX 4000-200 x1 > > VAX 4000-300 x1 > > PDP11/94 x4 No CPU cards > > SA600 (4 x RA92) x1 > > SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 > > VT420 x3 > > VT320 x1 > > VT330 x1 > > LA75 x3 > > > > > > Of these, plus other (Non-Dec kit) for sale or swap > > (All funds to save other old DEC kit) > > PDP 11/94 (No cpu cards) x2 > > VT 420 x2 > > LA75 x2 > > HP 700 Terminal x1 > > HP 2392A Terminal x1 > > Shiva LAN Rover x1 > > Victor PC in pristine condx. X1 > > SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 > > Wish list > > PDP-8/E > > KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) x 4 Replacements for the missing 11/94 CPU > > MSV11-JE x 4 " " 11/94 Memory > > VT05 > > VT100 > > VT220 > > LA36 > > LA180 > > DELNI > > DECSA > > Rainbow > > Anything else with a DEC label I can lift and and will fit into the > car. > > Objectives > > Working Examples of PDP8 , PDP11, and VAX systems. > > DECNet Network to connect the above. > > Working Examples of VT100, VT200, VT300, VT400, and VT500 series > terminals > > Decserver 200 connecting the above to the network > > Working Examples of LA series terminals/printers > > > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 6 12:26:56 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:26:56 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <003501c7a85c$8654a3e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <003501c7a85c$8654a3e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <4666EE60.8060909@yahoo.co.uk> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I would recommend testing the drives on a known good system first. >> Unless you know the drives are good, you can't trust the TESTFDC >> results (A failure could be indicative of a bad drive, not a FDC >> limitation). > > What's "good enough" testing? As a minimum I'll boot DOS, > format a floppy with the drive and put DOS onto the floppy, then > boot the floppy. Is that enough or are there oddball quirks that > might be better exposed by something else? A few of the PC motherboards I found were highly dependent on the drives used as to what tests they'd pass. Mitsumi drives seemed to cause a lot of problems, and I had one board which refused to pass tests with any 3.5" drive despite passing the same tests with any 5.25" drive. So yes, there are quirks (through no fault of testfdc) :-( From pechter at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 12:43:03 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:43:03 -0400 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 6/6/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Out of interest (and to my shame, without googling first :-), did DEC (or > a > third party) ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" against > function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.) > > I'm trying to sort out our documentation archives, and DEC seem very good > at > just listing the codes as title ("DZ11-C technical manual" etc.) on a lot > of > their docs - meaning I have to skim pages to get a handle on what the > thing > actually is) > > cheers > > Jules I've never seen one... From memory, R"x" -- Rotating Memory Device or Controller (RA, RB, RC, RD, RF, RK, RL, RM, RP, RS, RX, T"x" -- Tape drive (either Reel-to-Reel or cassette or dectape dvc or controller) TA, TC, TD, TM, TU, TE, TS, D"x" -- Communication or other interconnect device -- DL, DU, DM, DN, DS, K"b" -- CPU component or functional part KA, KB, KC, DD followed by something is a backplane option -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Jun 6 12:51:21 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:51:21 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/34 front panel, for cost of postage In-Reply-To: <4666B446.3050109@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4666B446.3050109@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <003101c7a863$4afa1300$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hi Pete, Does this include the mounting brackets? Thanks Julian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 8:19 AM > To: ClassicCmp > Subject: PDP-11/34 front panel, for cost of postage > > Still clearing things out... > > I found a spare PDP-11/34 front panel -- the "Programmer's" > type, with the octal display and octal keypad. Complete with > all the cables but does not include the KY11-L SPC card that > would control it. Free for cost of postage from York, UK. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jun 6 12:46:51 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:46:51 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: References: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200706061346.51696.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 06 June 2007 10:49, Mark KAHRS wrote: > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now > and then. > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? (Waving...) I'm the one with the data sheet archives, too, which are by necessity a work in progress. Contributions of datasheets in electronic form gladly accepted, as are suggestions as to how I might improve the pages: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/parts-index.html I also have lots of boxes of databooks on hand here, at least until I get some more shelving built, and more than one flatbed scanner, but then there's the time factor... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jun 6 13:07:11 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:07:11 -0700 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: References: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4666F7CF.7020906@shiresoft.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > On 6/6/07, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> >> Out of interest (and to my shame, without googling first :-), did DEC >> (or >> a >> third party) ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" >> against >> function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.) >> >> I'm trying to sort out our documentation archives, and DEC seem very >> good >> at >> just listing the codes as title ("DZ11-C technical manual" etc.) on a >> lot >> of >> their docs - meaning I have to skim pages to get a handle on what the >> thing >> actually is) >> >> cheers >> >> Jules > > > I've never seen one... From memory, > > R"x" -- Rotating Memory Device or Controller (RA, RB, RC, RD, RF, > RK, RL, > RM, RP, RS, RX, > > T"x" -- Tape drive (either Reel-to-Reel or cassette or dectape dvc or > controller) TA, TC, TD, TM, TU, TE, TS, > D"x" -- Communication or other interconnect device -- DL, DU, DM, DN, > DS, > K"b" -- CPU component or functional part KA, KB, KC, > DD followed by something is a backplane option > > I think the closest you'll find are the various peripheral handbooks. -- TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 6 13:05:14 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:05:14 -0700 Subject: DEC parts code reference? Message-ID: <4666F75A.4090706@bitsavers.org> did DEC (or a third party) ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" against function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.) -- Yes, the 'edited' and 'unedited' options/modules list(s) The April 1983 edited document can be found at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/modules/modulesAndOptions/ There are separate catalogs for documentation, since they changed more often with software releases. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 13:18:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 11:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <200706061346.51696.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. There's also the automated page flipper type thing. I had a particular design in mind, then I saw this, and it was even better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRPZm3pyC4o No, that's not the original page I found several months ago, and I don't feel like looking for it (if it's still up). But that's the very one a Japanese dude built. --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Wednesday 06 June 2007 10:49, Mark KAHRS wrote: > > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept > them partly out of > > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix > stuff of that era now > > and then. > > > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are > woefully incomplete. > > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects > these? > > (Waving...) > > I'm the one with the data sheet archives, too, > which are by necessity a work > in progress. Contributions of datasheets in > electronic form gladly accepted, > as are suggestions as to how I might improve the > pages: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/parts-index.html > > I also have lots of boxes of databooks on hand here, > at least until I get > some more shelving built, and more than one flatbed > scanner, but then > there's the time factor... > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most > unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a > critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, > "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a > society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 6 14:20:58 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:20:58 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <01C7A83F.000852E0@mandr71> Message-ID: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> > Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:34:37 -0500 > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Subject: Re: TESTFDC usage > > > > To completely test the FDC, you need to check Single, Double and > Double/128 at each of 250, 300 and 500 kbps rates. These are > represented in a standard PC at: > > 250 = 5.25 low-density drive only, 3.5" low-density diskette > 300 = 5.25 Low-density diskette in high-density drive > 500 = 5.25" or 2.5" high-density diskette > > So to check all possible data rates without a 300/360 modded drive, > you need to run two tests - either the 5.25" LD and HD drives, or a > 5.25" HD and 3.5" drive. > > ---------------------- > > I also wanted to do some testing but, despite our off-list correspondence, > I'm still confused: > > 5.25" drive, 3.5" diskette ??? Either a 5.25" low density drive (and it should be obvious which type of diskette you need to use with it) - OR - a 3.5" low-density diskette in either type of 3.5" drive (no I am not trying to tell you to put a 3.5" diskette into a 5.25" drive) > 2.5" diskette ??? Humm.... 5,25" or 2.5" ... obviously the 2.5 is a typo, so it must have been either: 5.25" or 5.25" -or- 5.25" or 3.5" I wonder which one it could be... Basically, testing HD in either type of drive (with HD diskette) will test 500kbps. > 3.5" drive - LD or HD? Let me try to explain it all. All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. to get DD a data rate of 250kbps is used. to get HD a data rate of 500kbps is used (HD drive only). - When doing DD, it DOES NOT MATTER what type the 3.5" drive is, the data rate, rotation speed and head width are all exactly the same ... this is why 3.5" HD drives do not have the compatibility problems with DD media sometimes observed with 5.25" HD drives. All 5.25" low-density drives turn at 300rpm. to get DD a data rate of 250kbps is used. HD is not applicable. Almost-All PC 5.25" high-density drives turn at 360rpm. to get DD a data rate of 300kbps is used (note1) to get HD a data rate of 500kbps is used (note2) note1: 300kbps at 360rpm works out to exactly the same bit density as 250kbps at 300rpm - this is the "compatibility mode" to allow single-speed 360rpm 5.25" drives to read/write DD diskettes. note2: The HD data rate is 500kbps on both 3.5" and 5.25" drives. The slower 3.5" (300 rpm) drives store more bits on a track, as it takes longer for the whole track to pass under the head. This is the reason that 3.5" HD disks store 1.44M which 5.25" HD disks store 1.2M note3: 360rpm / 500kbps is electrically the same as an 8" drive, which is why it's fairly easy to replace 8" drives with 5.25" HD drives. > Exactly what tests should be run with what size/density disk in what size/ > density/speed drive in order to get a complete picture? When I say "drive" I mean that exact type of drive. When I say "diskette" I mean that type of diskette, and it does not matter which type of drive (LD or HD) it is in - obviously it has to be the same physical format as the diskette. To test 250kbps rate, you need ONE of: 3.5" drive (either type) with 3.5" LOW DENSITY diskette. 5.25" LOW-DENSITY drive (with 5.25" LOW DENSITY diskette) To test 300kpbs, you need: 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 5.25" LOW-DENSITY diskette To test 500kbps, you need ONE of: 3.5" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 3.5" HIGH-DENSITY diskette. 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY diskette. For most people, who have 3.5" and 5.25" HD drives, running the full tests available for both those drive types will test all the possible combinations (in fact it will test 500kbps twice). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 6 14:25:18 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:25:18 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <003501c7a85c$8654a3e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <200706061237.l56Cb5Sj012854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> >> > I would recommend testing the drives on a known good system first. > > Unless you know the drives are good, you can't trust the TESTFDC > > results (A failure could be indicative of a bad drive, not a FDC > > limitation). > > What's "good enough" testing? As a minimum I'll boot DOS, > format a floppy with the drive and put DOS onto the floppy, then > boot the floppy. Is that enough or are there oddball quirks that > might be better exposed by something else? If you don't use/trust the drives on a regular basis, then this is likely the best you will be able to do - I would at least format, copy on a file big enough to nearly fill the drive and then copy it back off and confirm that all operations worked OK - this will be sure to check the inner tracks which is where TESTFDC does it's thing. Ideally, you would use known good/working drives. In my case, I have all of the available drive types as externally attachable drives, and I use them all frequently - knowing that I can trust the drives gives me confidence in the TESTFDC results when I check out a new mainboard. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 13:37:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 11:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "vintage peecee - description forthcoming" LOL LOL LOL Message-ID: <662786.32449.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> ooh that's all I needed to hear! so stand back! I just gotta bid on this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-PC-Description-to-come_W0QQitemZ260124366498QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 13:39:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:39:07 -0400 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: References: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 6/6/07, Bill Pechter wrote: > On 6/6/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > ... did DEC... ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" against > > function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.) > I've never seen one... From memory, > > R"x" -- Rotating Memory Device or Controller (RA, RB, RC, RD, RF, RK, RL, > RM, RP, RS, RX, > > T"x" -- Tape drive (either Reel-to-Reel or cassette or dectape dvc or > controller) TA, TC, TD, TM, TU, TE, TS, > D"x" -- Communication or other interconnect device -- DL, DU, DM, DN, DS, > K"b" -- CPU component or functional part KA, KB, KC, > DD followed by something is a backplane option More so with interfaces than external periperals (which might work on multiple types of CPUs), there's Q or V for Qbus (RQDX3), U for Unibus (UDA50), B for VAXBI (DWBUA, KDB50), 8 for PDP-8 (RL8A), 11 for PDP-11 (DUP11), 10 for PDP-10, etc., but there are plenty of oddball devices that don't exactly follow the pattern (KDA50 for Qbus, for example, or DMF32 which doesn't trumpet that it's for the Unibus, but then many Unibus devices lack a "U" when there's no Qbus equivalent to disambiguate it from). It doesn't help you to decipher exactly what goes with what, or what capacities, etc. (as in, an RK05 is a disk (R) with removable platters (K and others), and 5th in a line (from the RK01 through the RK07. You wouldn't know from that breakdown that RK05 and RK06 disk packs have different numbers of platters (vs, say, the RL01 and RL02 which are identical in shape, but differ only in low-level format), but you can at least tell something about the device. To continue, the RK05 might attach to your CPU with an RK11C, or RK11D or RKV11D or an RK8E... each of those _does_ tell you something about what sort of machine they attach to. So there is a pattern, but it's not absolute, nor does it do more than convey gross, general characteristics of the device. Still, I suppose it's better than a random 4-digit number (*ducks the bricks being thrown by the IBM crowd* ;-) -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 13:38:57 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 11:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 in Australia Message-ID: <561857.51912.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Tandy-TRS-80-Model-2000-complete-system-box_W0QQitemZ120128683061QQihZ002QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem no keyboard apparently (though I could be wrong). Rock on Aussie dudes! We got software (or did) if ya need it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tandy2000/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 13:59:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 11:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox 16/8 on eBay Message-ID: <156178.62810.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/1983-XEROX-16-8-Professional-Computer-RARE-COMPLETE_W0QQitemZ180127773557QQihZ008QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From eelco at huininga.nl Wed Jun 6 14:09:16 2007 From: eelco at huininga.nl (Eelco Huininga) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:09:16 +0200 Subject: Acorn Second Processors In-Reply-To: <200705311745.l4VHhnES045131@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200705311745.l4VHhnES045131@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4667065C.4010801@huininga.nl> > > Hi, > > > > >> Changing the subject slightly, IIRC the original "Acorn 6502 > > >>Second Processor" cheese-wedge was just that, a faster 6502? > > > > > > Actualy, it's a 3MHz 65C02. > > > > Ah, thanks for that....it's been a few years since I had the lid off mine. > > > > > > >>....problems (in fact, total failure IIRC?) when I tried running > > >>a 65c02 in a Model B sometime in the early 90's? > > > > I too recently tried that, with three new 65c02's. The BBC would have > none of it : it only booted with the NMOS 6502 > > Jos IIRC this was caused by a slight timing difference of the Phi2 signal. This could be solved by placing two 220pF ceramic capacitors over pins 7 and 11 of IC29 and IC37. This would fix the Beeb's booting problem, but unfortunately this would create a DRAM timing problem for Solidisk's 96k Sideways RAM expansion for the 32k SWR board. Took me (literally) years to figure that out! One of my 'when-i-have-time' things is experimenting with the capacitor's value to see if I can find the right value :-) Cheers, Eelco From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 14:16:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:16:53 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061237.l56Cb5Sj012854@hosting.monisys.ca>, <003501c7a85c$8654a3e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname>, <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4666A5B5.2555.1FD58E0D@cclist.sydex.com> There are some NEC and Mitsubishi 3.5" drives that have a fair number of additional signals on the odd-numbered connector pin side--usually used on CNC and some lab equipment on 9801-series architectures. When replacing these, we've found that any old 3.5" drive won't do-- an exact replacement is necessary. I'm surprised no one mentioned 3.5" DSED testing. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 6 14:19:39 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 20:19:39 +0100 Subject: DECnet and MOP In-Reply-To: <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <004001c7a86f$a1d9cbf0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> der Mouse wrote: >> I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. > > I don't suppose you have softcopies? Or that someone else has them > available for fetch? http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/docs/doc_index.html If they're not all there I do have a complete set lying around on a disk somewhere. The Phase IV specs were available freely on gatekeeper.dec.com. The Phase V ones were only available for purchase AFAIK. Antonio From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 14:26:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 in Australia In-Reply-To: <561857.51912.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <11637.5852.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Tandy-TRS-80-Model-2000-complete-system-box_W0QQitemZ120128683061QQihZ002QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > no keyboard apparently (though I could be wrong). > Rock > on Aussie dudes! We got software (or did) if ya need > it: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tandy2000/ come to think of it there is a way of modding a Tandy 1000 keyboard to work w/a 2000. I could forware the information to anyone who's interested. I haven't tried it *yet* myself... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From rickb at bensene.com Wed Jun 6 14:38:42 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:38:42 -0700 Subject: Old TEC Terminal In-Reply-To: References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><4666DBD4.5040901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: I dug out the old TEC terminal that I had stored away. It is a TEC Model 1440. It indeed uses MOS shift registers for character storage (2xMK1109), and also (6x 8-pin DIP devices which I've not been able to identify) for spinning out each line of dots. It has a custom ROM made by AMI for the character generator. It uses an LSI UART. All of the rest of the digital logic is standard TTL, mostly 7400-Series. It uses a standard Ball Brothers TV-120 video monitor subassembly. It looks like the X/Y drivers are IC-based amplifiers, and are on the main logic board. They have large clip-on heatsinks on them. Can't see the part number, as it apperas to be covered by the heatsinks. The CRT is "clean", with no signs of burn-in or delamination. I tried to power it up, but it blows the fuse immediately (2A slow-blow), so either power supply caps have malformed, or a rectifier/transistor in the power supply circuitry has gone bad. No smoke or any other bad signs. Close inspection of the logic board, and the various other boards (power supply, HV supply, CRT drive) show no signs of any blown or burnt components. Flyback transformer looks good. I was able to get a small spark from the HV supply by using the standard technique to drain off the HV charge. Date codes on the TTL parts range from late 1977 through early 1978. The terminal was manufactured later than I expected, but I believe that the design was probably pretty old, as by early '78, there were lot better ways to make a terminal. The terminal probably had a fairly long production life. The keyboard is clearly set up for standard ASCII character set. It has a "line/local" switch on it to put the terminal into online or local mode. It has a port labeled "I/O", a DB-25 connector, that appears to be usable for connection to some type of peripheral devices, perhaps a printer, or a paper tape punch. It uses fairly standard keyswitch modules. The keycaps show little wear. It has an "ESCAPE" key, along with a "RUBOUT" key, and "CTRL" key, along with the normal keyboard layout. They keyboard plugs into the main unit using a cable with a DB-25 male connector on one end that plugs into a DB-25 female connector on the back panel of the main unit. The main unit has a large power switch on the back panel, and a single knob on the front panel for varying display brightness. It appears that there were a number of options for the terminal. There is an open spot on the circuit board for a switch which is labeled on the circuit board as selection for 80x24 or 40x12. It appears that this terminal as a control sequence that can switch the modes, as when I powered it up last, a number of years ago, I could get it to come up in 80x24 or 40x12 modes on power-up. The main circuit board has nomenclature indicating that it is a "1440/45 TELE-TEC LOGIC BOARD". Anyone out there have an operating manual, service manual, or schematics for this thing? I think it would be fun to try to bring it back to life. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 6 15:18:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 14:18:35 -0600 Subject: Old TEC Terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:38:42 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > Anyone out there have an operating manual, service manual, or schematics > for this thing? I think it would be fun to try to bring it back to > life. Damn, after all that, I was hoping you were going to offer it up to someone on the list, namely me :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Jun 6 15:23:33 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:23:33 -0700 Subject: DECnet and MOP In-Reply-To: <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4970113.1181086211496.JavaMail.?@fh1037.dia.cp.net> <200706061653.MAA11205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: At 12:51 PM -0400 6/6/07, der Mouse wrote: > > I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. > >I don't suppose you have softcopies? Or that someone else has them >available for fetch? Al has an excellent selection on bitsavers. Scans of my own copies are archived at . John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 6 15:29:06 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives at 360RPM. That enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" That was a good, through explanation. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 15:54:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:54:29 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca>, <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4666BC95.21793.202EE954@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2007 at 13:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives at 360RPM. That > enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" I've got a couple of very neat Toshiba 3.5" drives that auto-adjust rotational speed. You can't format a 1.3MB 360 RPM floppy but you can read and write one. Many USB floppies as well as the Imation Superdrive will do the same-- i.e. read/write, but no format. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 6 15:48:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 15:48:27 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46671D9B.7060809@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. > > Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives at 360RPM. That > enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" > > That was a good, through explanation. Indeed. It needs to be put on its own web page somewhere so it can be referenced. It's surprising how often the topic crops up (not just here, but on any kind of vintage computing group) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 16:11:55 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floppy issues was Re: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <46671D9B.7060809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <180870.42155.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Indeed. It needs to be put on its own web page > somewhere so it can be > referenced. It's surprising how often the topic > crops up (not just here, but > on any kind of vintage computing group) Now what would be nice is a *small* document that would explain why rotational speeds and other things matter, particularly when making/recreating images. A catalog of different drive types and their issues would go hand in hand w/such. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 6 16:00:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:00:31 -0500 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: References: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4667206F.207@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > So there is a pattern, but it's not absolute, nor does it do more than > convey gross, general characteristics of the device. That's precisely my problem - I was spotting vague patterns earlier, but then something would come along that just didn't fit in, and having a few exceptions makes the whole idea of sifting things based on part code alone rather redundant :-) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 6 16:17:46 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 22:17:46 +0100 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4667247A.5030507@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/06/2007 21:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. > > Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives at 360RPM. That > enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" And some early Sony 3.5" drives turn at 600 rpm, using twice the normal data rate. But they have a different interface pinout as well, so you're unlikely to see them in a PC. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 6 16:28:15 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 22:28:15 +0100 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: <4667206F.207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <004701c7a881$98e60f10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Jules Richardson wrote: > That's precisely my problem - I was spotting vague patterns earlier, > but then something would come along that just didn't fit in, and > having a few exceptions makes the whole idea of sifting things based > on part code alone rather redundant :-) DEC produced "stuff" for (just) over 40 years; naming consistency over that period is a tad tough :-) Someone sent me a copy of an Options and Modules CD set from the mid 1990s ... I think I sent it to Manx but I'm not sure how easy it would be to make available over the net. (It's not the amount of data, it's more how to present it). Antonio From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 08:21:43 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:21:43 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FAF@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Thanks Rick I'll get the CPU manual from bitsavers. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: 06 June 2007 11:49 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New DEC problem At 04:43 AM 6/4/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi > And now something for all you Decsperts to get your teeth into. >My VAX4000-300 is failing the self test. > >After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test >C5. > >Does anybody know what test C5 tests. >If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a >problem. According to the KA670 Tech Manual (EK-KA670-TM, it's on bitsavers.) the C5 diagnostic is for the system support chip. I don't know if an unterminated DSSI will cause this, but it's plausible. Hopefully this additional information will elicit a more helpful reply. -Rick From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 08:43:03 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:43:03 +0100 Subject: Re collection profile Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FB1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well the DELNI can come off the list and from using a Chase IOLAN box as terminal server. I now have enough Decserver 200's to connect every type of serial device DEC ever made. They were going for a song so I gave them my version of "My Way" and got them very cheap!! Rod Smallwood From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 16:33:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <4667247A.5030507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <786926.45711.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> what about the Sony drives that appeared in the SMC-70 series? Can't we talk about them for a bit? I was under the impression neither set (one in an SMC-70, another in an SMC-70C) worked, but then I remembered that these computers have sort of a mode switch, one setting makes the puter boot from the drives, so maybe that was my problem. Has anyone played with these? Could those units take a standard 3.5" drive? --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 06/06/2007 21:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. > > > > Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives > at 360RPM. That > > enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", > 5.25", and 3.5" > > And some early Sony 3.5" drives turn at 600 rpm, > using twice the normal > data rate. But they have a different interface > pinout as well, so > you're unlikely to see them in a PC. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 6 17:10:31 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:10:31 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: References: <200706061440.l56EdUue082948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Jun 6, 2007, at 10:49 AM, Mark KAHRS wrote: > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now > and then. > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? I don't collect them, but I have a huge number of them, and I use them pretty much every day. I've purchased a lot of older ones on eBay and happily paid Real Money for them. That really cheeses me off because vendors give them away for free, but if I need the data, I need the data. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 6 18:17:10 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:17:10 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <4666A5B5.2555.1FD58E0D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> > There are some NEC and Mitsubishi 3.5" drives that have a fair number > of additional signals on the odd-numbered connector pin side--usually > used on CNC and some lab equipment on 9801-series architectures. > When replacing these, we've found that any old 3.5" drive won't do-- > an exact replacement is necessary. I guess I should have been more specific... the information I posted was specifically about the setup you are likely to find in PC drives. There are lots of variations in possible drive types if you open up to "anything", but I didn't (and still don't) feel that discussing all the things you are not likely to see on a PC would make the water any less muddy for those guys who are trying to figure out what they need to do to characterize their PC FDC. > I'm surprised no one mentioned 3.5" DSED testing. Neither TESTFDC nor IMD support ED, simply because I don't have an ED compatible drive - I don't think I've ever run across one. If I can't test it, I can't reliably implement it (anyone want to send me a drive? :-) I also don't find ED very relevant to archiving vintage computer diskette images - are there any systems in need of such attention that use ED as their standard disk format? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 6 18:17:10 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:17:10 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706062219.l56MJcR8029991@hosting.monisys.ca> > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. > > Well, . . . ALMOST all. NEC ran some 3.5" drives at 360RPM. That > enabled them to have the same format specs for 8", 5.25", and 3.5" Well... I hoped it would be obvious, but that discussion was specifically about what you are likely to find on a PC - I have never encountered a 3.5" drive on a PC that runs at anything other than 300 rpm (although I fully agree that such a thing could have been done - but I don't think you are very likely to run across one). I saw no value in expounding on all the things you won't have to deal with with TESTFDC - just the ones you are likely to find. I did say "Almost all" for 5.25" HD drives and 360rpm, because I have found references to dual speed drive implementations on PC compatible machines, although I don't think I have personally encountered one. > That was a good, through explanation. Thanks. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 6 17:12:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 23:12:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: from "Mark KAHRS" at Jun 6, 7 10:49:42 am Message-ID: > > > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept them partly out of > sentimentality and partly because I have to fix stuff of that era now > and then. > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are woefully incomplete. > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects these? I don't collect them, I use them :-) I find a paper databook/datasheet to be a lot easier to refer to than a document on the web. Sure the web archives are useful when I can't get the data any other way (nad many times they have provided data on chips not in the _large_ collection of databooks here), but I am still keeping said databooks. AS is well know, I do a lot of reapirs on older computer hardware, and it's a lot easier when you know what the chips are and what signals to expect on the pins :-) -tony From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jun 6 16:43:08 2007 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seattle Spring Cleaning In-Reply-To: <4666B446.3050109@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: I'll be going through a bunch of boxes of computer stuff stored in my garage and an external storage facility over the next week (or month, or year).... I'm on Bainbridge Island. Anybody in Seattle or Kitsap county want to help? You'll get to take home a bunch of crap I don't want, and you may even get to take some prize collectibles I do want (as a bribe to get you to take some crap I don't want). Some of these boxes haven't been opened in 10 years. Everything from PC crap to S-100 stuff to obscure and interesting stuff. Locals only. I don't want to disapoint somebody flying in from Amsterdam or someplace. And I'm not interested in shipping anything at this point. Random examples found in two boxes opened today: 8" floppy drive, Apple eMate, couple Apple Duo Docks, 486 mobo, HP 110 laptop, internal printer for HP Integral, a bunch of barcode scanners, etc. Cheers, Doug From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 18:03:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:03:27 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca>, <4666A5B5.2555.1FD58E0D@cclist.sydex.com>, <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4666DACF.31381.20A4FB18@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2007 at 18:17, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I also don't find ED very relevant to archiving vintage computer diskette > images - are there any systems in need of such attention that use ED as > their standard disk format? I do have a few IBM PS/2 distros on ED. I am aware of a few companies selling into the PS/2 market for whom 2.88M was the distribution medium. The Teac drive that will handles these in either media-sense or host-specified mode is the FD-235J. IBM used (IIRC) host-side density control on much of the PS/2 line, so you *could* format anything from 720K to 2.88M on a plain-Jane DS2D disk. Maybe the result wasn't entirely reliable, but it could be done. The "right" media is a barium ferrite formulation and has the density aperture closer to the bottom edge of the disk than do the DSHD diskettes. If you stick one of these things in a 1.44MB-only drive, it appears as a DS2D. As far as "PC drives", those Mitsubishi/NEC 360RPM drives ran MS-DOS 2.10 on their host system (the flavor is sometimes called "DOS-V"). Diskettes were generally formatted as 8x2x1024x77 or 8x2x1024x80; some of the CP/M formats used 256-byte sectors. Even Windows NT running on a 9801 supported that format--as does (in read-only mode) Windows XP/2000 today. As far as Microsoft back in the day was concerned, the 9801 platform was a PC, just not a "Western" PC. At one time, the 9801 platform owned something like 70% of the PC market in Japan. Hope I got this all correct. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 6 18:18:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 16:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070606161812.A17952@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I also don't find ED very relevant to archiving vintage computer diskette > images - are there any systems in need of such attention that use ED as > their standard disk format? early NeXT? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 6 18:18:36 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 00:18:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <233309.29562.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yes the video is still up. Pretty neat machine. Must take hours to scan the book, but I guess it is faster than doing it all manually. Gives you time to sit back and have a cup of tea/coffee/cocoa while it does all the work :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Chris M wrote: how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. There's also the automated page flipper type thing. I had a particular design in mind, then I saw this, and it was even better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRPZm3pyC4o No, that's not the original page I found several months ago, and I don't feel like looking for it (if it's still up). But that's the very one a Japanese dude built. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 18:25:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 16:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <233309.29562.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <426250.85808.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> that mechanism was a bit slow it seems. Though time is irrelevant - you could set the thing to running, then go to bed even. --- Andrew Burton wrote: > > Yes the video is still up. > > Pretty neat machine. Must take hours to scan the > book, but I guess it is faster than doing it all > manually. Gives you time to sit back and have a cup > of tea/coffee/cocoa while it does all the work :) > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > Chris M wrote: how about a > sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? > Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them > in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. > There's also the automated page flipper type thing. > I > had a particular design in mind, then I saw this, > and > it was even better: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRPZm3pyC4o > > No, that's not the original page I found several > months ago, and I don't feel like looking for it (if > it's still up). But that's the very one a Japanese > dude built. > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jun 6 19:11:09 2007 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 17:11:09 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606161812.A17952@shell.lmi.net> (Fred Cisin's message of "Wed\, 6 Jun 2007 16\:18\:38 -0700 \(PDT\)") References: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070606161812.A17952@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200706070011.l570B9HA011970@lots.reanimators.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I also don't find ED very relevant to archiving vintage computer diskette >> images - are there any systems in need of such attention that use ED as >> their standard disk format? > > early NeXT? The *early* NeXT standard disk format was 256MB magneto-optical. ED stiffies came later. -Frank McConnell From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 6 19:45:41 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 17:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706070011.l570B9HA011970@lots.reanimators.org> References: <200706061827.l56IRkqS018475@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706062219.l56MJcR6029991@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070606161812.A17952@shell.lmi.net> <200706070011.l570B9HA011970@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <20070606172905.V17952@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Frank McConnell wrote: > The *early* NeXT standard disk format was 256MB magneto-optical. > ED stiffies came later. Ah, yes. Thanks for the correction. NeXT called the ED's "4Meg", which was the unformmated capacity. IBM called them 2.88M, which is the formatted capacity when using a bogus definition of megabyte. (80 * 2 * 36 * 512) The dividing line between regular and obscure systems is not always clear. Some people claim that dual speed 1.2 was as common as 360RPM. Outside of the USA, 360RPM 3.5" wasn't as rare. 2.8M was popular in some niche markets, along with 20M floptical, LS120, Kodak/Drivetec 6? M, 12M? 5.25", Weltec 180RPM 1.2M with 250K data transfer rate, etc. 'course some of those drives used on PC's were not a "normal" SA400 style interface, including parallel port interfaces, and some used SCSI. And, of course, there are some with special harware that hardly ever were on PC's, such as hard-sectored, 2.5", etc. If this ever does make it to a website write-up, it should cover the "normal" ones, and have a paragraph listing the obscure and bizarre. That way, people with "non-standard" setups won't be excluded. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Jun 6 20:09:43 2007 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:09:43 -0700 Subject: Apple II Message-ID: <000b01c7a8a0$8d66b260$6601a8c0@downstairs2> There are various news stories about the 30th anniversary of the Apple II computer. My favorite story is that I had Apple II serial number 2 for evaluation. At the time I was working at a computer store in San Mateo, California. The owner, Chet Harris, when down to the Apple factory one Saturday in June of 1977 and came back with the first two completed units. (This must have been June 4.) He had sold serial number 1 to a friend of his and I got serial number 2. After a few weeks the power supply failed and it was sent back to Apple. Jef Raskin ended up with this unit. You can read about it here: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Apple/allied_computer.htm Apple started selling the Apple II boards around April of 1977. They were having problems with the plastic case, the early production units did not have the vents on the side. You can see that in the picture of serial number 2. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Apple/Jef_Raskin_Apple.jpg A customer at the store, Bill Kelly, was doing the advertising campaign for Apple and he got a prototype Apple II board. I built a linear power supply for it and traded it to him for an Intel SDK-80 board. Here is his web site: http://www.kelleyad.com/Histry.htm Here is a page that shows the my SDK-80 board. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Homebrew/Homebrew.htm Even though I went to the Homebrew Computer club, looked at the Apple I, and I had use of a Apple II; I have never owned an Apple computer. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 21:08:44 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 19:08:44 -0700 Subject: More Seattle Spring Cleaning - HP 7980A / M4 9914 9-track tape drives Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706061908h7f79f857hc0e7274a9c2c5c03@mail.gmail.com> Anyone in the Seattle area looking for a 9-track tape drive project? I have one HP 7980A HPIB and two M4 9914 SCSI/Pertec drives. These are front loading / auto loading units. Unfortunately they need some work to be fully functional. The problem with both M4 units may be limited to the tach rollers not accurately rolling along with the tape motion. I had one of the M4 units working briefly a couple of months ago. If anyone local wants these let me know with a private reply. These are too big and heavy to deal with shipping. -Glen From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jun 6 22:19:11 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 04:19:11 +0100 Subject: TESTFDC usage References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca><20070606132552.A7407@shell.lmi.net> <4667247A.5030507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <005801c7a8b2$9f5a9fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > And some early Sony 3.5" drives turn at 600 rpm, using twice >the normal data rate.... I'd forgotten about those, they were used in the Apricot PC and PC/Xi. ISTR they were 70 track devices too. TTFN - Pete. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jun 6 22:49:23 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 23:49:23 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200706062349.23858.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 06 June 2007 14:18, Chris M wrote: > how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? > Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them > in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. Nope. I don't see a need to destroy the books to get that info in there... > There's also the automated page flipper type thing. I had a particular > design in mind, then I saw this, and it was even better: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRPZm3pyC4o > > No, that's not the original page I found several months ago, and I don't > feel like looking for it (if it's still up). But that's the very one a > Japanese dude built. I'll have a look some time. Other constraints apply, and I'm not gonna bore y'all with what's been going on in my life lately. > --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > On Wednesday 06 June 2007 10:49, Mark KAHRS wrote: > > > I have 25 linear feet of old databooks. I've kept > > > them partly out of sentimentality and partly because I have to fix > > > stuff of that era now and then. > > > > > > The data sheet archives I've seen on the web are > > > woefully incomplete. > > > > > Does anyone know of anyone/anything that collects > > > these? > > > > (Waving...) > > > > I'm the one with the data sheet archives, too, which are by necessity a > > work in progress. Contributions of datasheets in electronic form gladly > > accepted, as are suggestions as to how I might improve the > > pages: > > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/parts-index.html > > > > I also have lots of boxes of databooks on hand here, at least until I get > > some more shelving built, and more than one flatbed scanner, but then > > there's the time factor... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jun 6 22:52:25 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 23:52:25 -0400 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706062352.25249.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 06 June 2007 15:20, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:34:37 -0500 > > From: "Dave Dunfield" > > Subject: Re: TESTFDC usage > > > > > > > > To completely test the FDC, you need to check Single, Double and > > Double/128 at each of 250, 300 and 500 kbps rates. These are > > represented in a standard PC at: > > > > 250 = 5.25 low-density drive only, 3.5" low-density diskette > > 300 = 5.25 Low-density diskette in high-density drive > > 500 = 5.25" or 2.5" high-density diskette > > > > So to check all possible data rates without a 300/360 modded drive, > > you need to run two tests - either the 5.25" LD and HD drives, or a > > 5.25" HD and 3.5" drive. > > > > ---------------------- > > > > I also wanted to do some testing but, despite our off-list > > correspondence, I'm still confused: > > > > 5.25" drive, 3.5" diskette ??? > > Either a 5.25" low density drive (and it should be obvious which type > of diskette you need to use with it) - OR - > a 3.5" low-density diskette in either type of 3.5" drive (no I am not > trying to tell you to put a 3.5" diskette into a 5.25" drive) > > > 2.5" diskette ??? > > Humm.... 5,25" or 2.5" ... obviously the 2.5 is a typo, so it must have > been either: > 5.25" or 5.25" > -or- 5.25" or 3.5" > > I wonder which one it could be... > > Basically, testing HD in either type of drive (with HD diskette) will > test 500kbps. > > > 3.5" drive - LD or HD? > > Let me try to explain it all. > > All 3.5" drives turn at 300rpm. > to get DD a data rate of 250kbps is used. > to get HD a data rate of 500kbps is used (HD drive only). > - When doing DD, it DOES NOT MATTER what type the 3.5" drive is, > the data rate, rotation speed and head width are all exactly the > same ... this is why 3.5" HD drives do not have the compatibility > problems with DD media sometimes observed with 5.25" HD drives. > > All 5.25" low-density drives turn at 300rpm. > to get DD a data rate of 250kbps is used. > HD is not applicable. > > Almost-All PC 5.25" high-density drives turn at 360rpm. > to get DD a data rate of 300kbps is used (note1) > to get HD a data rate of 500kbps is used (note2) > > note1: 300kbps at 360rpm works out to exactly the same bit > density as 250kbps at 300rpm - this is the "compatibility mode" > to allow single-speed 360rpm 5.25" drives to read/write DD diskettes. > > note2: The HD data rate is 500kbps on both 3.5" and 5.25" drives. The > slower 3.5" (300 rpm) drives store more bits on a track, as it takes > longer for the whole track to pass under the head. This is the reason > that 3.5" HD disks store 1.44M which 5.25" HD disks store 1.2M > > note3: 360rpm / 500kbps is electrically the same as an 8" drive, which > is why it's fairly easy to replace 8" drives with 5.25" HD drives. > > > Exactly what tests should be run with what size/density disk in what > > size/ density/speed drive in order to get a complete picture? > > When I say "drive" I mean that exact type of drive. > When I say "diskette" I mean that type of diskette, and it > does not matter which type of drive (LD or HD) it is in - obviously it > has to be the same physical format as the diskette. > > To test 250kbps rate, you need ONE of: > 3.5" drive (either type) with 3.5" LOW DENSITY diskette. > 5.25" LOW-DENSITY drive (with 5.25" LOW DENSITY diskette) > > To test 300kpbs, you need: > 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 5.25" LOW-DENSITY diskette > > To test 500kbps, you need ONE of: > 3.5" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 3.5" HIGH-DENSITY diskette. > 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY drive with 5.25" HIGH-DENSITY diskette. > > For most people, who have 3.5" and 5.25" HD drives, running > the full tests available for both those drive types will test > all the possible combinations (in fact it will test 500kbps > twice). > > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html So Dave, what's the deal with those oddball 5.25" drives? I'm remembering vaguely some that were 96tpi, and one (?) that was supposedly 100tpi... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dave at mitton.com Wed Jun 6 23:38:21 2007 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 00:38:21 -0400 Subject: DECnet on the 'net In-Reply-To: <200706062227.l56MR1Ou091305@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706062227.l56MR1Ou091305@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) On 6/6/2007 06:27 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:31:03 -0400 >From: "Bill Pechter" >Subject: Re: DECnet and MOP >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >On 6/6/07, der Mouse wrote: > > > > > I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. > > > > I don't suppose you have softcopies? Or that someone else has them > > available for fetch? > > > > I'd like to have a stab at implementing DECnet. (Not because I have > > any production use for it; just as part of my drive to understand > > everything - nothing teaches a protocol like implementing it.) > > > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > > \ / Ribbon Campaign > > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > >Softcopies linked to on >http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/docs/doc_index.html > >-- Great pointer. That's a copy of stuff rescued from Decwrl after Compaq took over. I'd almost forgotten all the time spent in Runoff. I'd used to say that I produced the last implementation of DECnet Phase IV in PathWORKS for Windows 95. But these guys doing the Linux DECnet have taken that away from me. http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/ If you're interested in learning how DECnet works, that implementation is freely accessible. PS: There is a Debian MOP daemon here http://packages.debian.org/unstable/net/mopd I seem to remember that there was a group of people bridging their DECnet over TCP to connect various sites over the Internet. I can't seem to find them this minute. Dave. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 7 00:07:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 22:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706062352.25249.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706062352.25249.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070606215900.G28411@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > So Dave, what's the deal with those oddball 5.25" drives? I'm remembering > vaguely some that were 96tpi, and one (?) that was supposedly 100tpi... Dave is testing the FDC, not the physical parameters of the drive. 96tpi DSDD was common briefly, but was never used in the PC, except for the PC-JX. To the disk controller, it is the same as a 3.5" "720K". Teac 55F, Shugart 465, Tandon TM100-4, Mitsubishi 4853, etc Micropolis came out with a 100tpi (77 track) 5.25" drive. It never really caught on. Tandon made a replacement drive for that - TM100-4M. With a few exceptions, the 96tpi formats cqan be done using a 1.2M drive. Teac 55FG is deliberately intende3d for both "720K" and 1.2M use. The only exceptions would be drive where the stepper switches to double stepping when in "low density" mode, or using a 250K or 300K data transfer rate. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From scheefj at aim.com Wed Jun 6 17:06:30 2007 From: scheefj at aim.com (scheefj at aim.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:06:30 -0400 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4666EC29.5060203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <8C9769E126A8767-530-9207@WEBMAIL-MB03.sysops.aol.com> Jules, Such an index was?called a "salesman". ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 1:17 pm Subject: DEC parts code reference? Out of interest (and to my shame, without googling first :-), did DEC (or a third party) ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" against function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.)? ? I'm trying to sort out our documentation archives, and DEC seem very good at just listing the codes as title ("DZ11-C technical manual" etc.) on a lot of their docs - meaning I have to skim pages to get a handle on what the thing actually is)? ? cheers? ? Jules? ? ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 18:38:36 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 00:38:36 +0100 Subject: DEC parts code reference? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FB4@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Guys The most useful internal document we had when I was at DEC was the Price Book. It consisted of a 250 page line printer document reduced from 15" to A3 and bound into Book format. Every saleable item was in there. There must have been a database somewhere with every item DEC sold and its part number. Im unsure but there may well have been a corporate DEC 10 in the Mill. Somebody, somewhere must have a tape backup of the price list. (Now that would be a real find!!) We never knew how the part numbers got allocated either. However the product numbers like DLV11-J tended to be generated by the Product Line And the module numbers like M7786 were of engineering origin. It makes a little more sense if you know the internal structure of DEC (yes it did have one!) Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 06 June 2007 22:28 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: DEC parts code reference? Jules Richardson wrote: > That's precisely my problem - I was spotting vague patterns earlier, > but then something would come along that just didn't fit in, and > having a few exceptions makes the whole idea of sifting things based > on part code alone rather redundant :-) DEC produced "stuff" for (just) over 40 years; naming consistency over that period is a tad tough :-) Someone sent me a copy of an Options and Modules CD set from the mid 1990s ... I think I sent it to Manx but I'm not sure how easy it would be to make available over the net. (It's not the amount of data, it's more how to present it). Antonio From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 18:58:29 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 00:58:29 +0100 Subject: My Collection Profile Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FB7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Voltage problems apart what do you have? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: 06 June 2007 18:33 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: My Collection Profile Hi Rod, I have most of the items on your wish list, but I'm in the states. Thanks, Paul On 6/5/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > The story so far: > > VAX 4000-200 x1 > > VAX 4000-300 x1 > > PDP11/94 x4 No CPU cards > > SA600 (4 x RA92) x1 > > SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 > > VT420 x3 > > VT320 x1 > > VT330 x1 > > LA75 x3 > > > > > > Of these, plus other (Non-Dec kit) for sale or swap > > (All funds to save other old DEC kit) > > PDP 11/94 (No cpu cards) x2 > > VT 420 x2 > > LA75 x2 > > HP 700 Terminal x1 > > HP 2392A Terminal x1 > > Shiva LAN Rover x1 > > Victor PC in pristine condx. X1 > > SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 > > Wish list > > PDP-8/E > > KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) x 4 Replacements for the missing 11/94 CPU > > MSV11-JE x 4 " " 11/94 Memory > > VT05 > > VT100 > > VT220 > > LA36 > > LA180 > > DELNI > > DECSA > > Rainbow > > Anything else with a DEC label I can lift and and will fit into the > car. > > Objectives > > Working Examples of PDP8 , PDP11, and VAX systems. > > DECNet Network to connect the above. > > Working Examples of VT100, VT200, VT300, VT400, and VT500 series > terminals > > Decserver 200 connecting the above to the network > > Working Examples of LA series terminals/printers > > > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 6 19:07:01 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 01:07:01 +0100 Subject: New DEC problem Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FB8@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Nisc_load.exe R -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 06 June 2007 17:49 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: New DEC problem Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > Boot, well sort of. Its down loading a file from a boot server using > BOOT EZA0 (The ethernet port). > That it does OK and on the boot server it says download OK. > However it does not run the downloaded file. I may have the wrong one. If it manages to download something (and thinks that it is successful) then that sounds like a non-fatal error. What are you downloading? Antonio From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jun 7 03:23:17 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 10:23:17 +0200 Subject: DECnet on the 'net In-Reply-To: <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> References: <200706062227.l56MR1Ou091305@dewey.classiccmp.org> <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> Message-ID: <20070607102317.310bba8e@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 00:38:21 -0400 Dave Mitton wrote: > I seem to remember that there was a group of people bridging their > DECnet over TCP to connect various sites over the Internet. I can't > seem to find them this minute. http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 7 05:41:55 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:41:55 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <200706062349.23858.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <200706062349.23858.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070607104155.4DA7DBA445D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Wednesday 06 June 2007 14:18, Chris M wrote: > > how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? > > Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them > > in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. > > Nope. I don't see a need to destroy the books to get that info in there... Most databooks are printed on variable-to-poor quality paper and will not last forever anyway. If you don't want to destroy them that badly, then hopefully you will have them treated to neutralize the acid in the paper. Most such books end up "too much trouble to scan but too valuable to shear off the binding to make scanning easier" so the owner ends up throwing them away. Doug Jones has a good web page on paperback/databook type preservation: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/book/ Tim. From paul at frixxon.co.uk Thu Jun 7 05:42:16 2007 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:42:16 +0100 Subject: DEC parts code reference? In-Reply-To: <004701c7a881$98e60f10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <004701c7a881$98e60f10$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <4667E108.9060906@frixxon.co.uk> Antonio Carlini wrote: > > Someone sent me a copy of an Options and Modules CD set from the > mid 1990s ... I think I sent it to Manx but I'm not sure how > easy it would be to make available over the net. (It's not the > amount of data, it's more how to present it). A lot of the fields were the names of various managers responsible for design, production and maintenance of the parts, so Manx only shows the part number and description fields at the moment. http://vt100.net/manx/part This draft Parts section of Manx only contains DEC information so far. -- Paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 7 06:00:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:00:27 -0500 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <20070607104155.4DA7DBA445D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <200706062349.23858.rtellason@verizon.net> <20070607104155.4DA7DBA445D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4667E54B.5000506@yahoo.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: >> On Wednesday 06 June 2007 14:18, Chris M wrote: >>> how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? >>> Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them >>> in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. >> Nope. I don't see a need to destroy the books to get that info in there... > > Most databooks are printed on variable-to-poor quality paper and > will not last forever anyway. If you don't want to destroy them that > badly, then hopefully you will have them treated to neutralize the > acid in the paper. What sort of timescale is 'forever'? We've got numerous ones dating back to the 70s which are showing no real signs of decay *yet*. The shiny, ultra-thin paper often found in databooks actually seems to fare better than coarser "book" type paper in my experience. I'm not sure why - maybe it's more resistant to absorbing moisture from the air or something. I hauled about 20ft of databooks into our workshop just the other week which can go on the shelves - unfortunately a lot of it's early transistor stuff rather than ICs, which is perhaps less useful: the majority of our transistorised big iron has a healthy spare components cache and will document the components anyway; later databooks would be more handy as a reference for IC-populated machines, as in most cases they're a lot smaller and don't come with a big cache of spares. cheers Jules From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 7 08:10:13 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 08:10:13 -0500 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706062352.25249.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> > So Dave, what's the deal with those oddball 5.25" drives? I'm remembering > vaguely some that were 96tpi, and one (?) that was supposedly 100tpi... The commonly found 5.25" drives are: A: Single-Sided, 35 track, 48 tpi (original SA400) B: Single-Sided, 40 track, 48 tpi (SA400L and others) C: Double-sided, 40 track, 48 tpi (SA450, TM-100-2, TEAC55B, etc.) D: Double-sided, 80 track, 96 tpi (SA460, TM-100-4 TEAC55F, etc.) E: Double-sided, 80 track, 96 tpi, High Density (TEAC55G, Pan JU-475 etc.) Less common, but I've run into a couple are: F: Single-Sided, 80 track, 96 tpi (can't think of any models) Still (much) less common are: G: Double-Sided, 77 track, 100tpi (TM-100-4M) A, B and C are compatible within the areas that they overlap, ie: C can read/write B and A, and B can read/write A D and F are compitible within the areas that they overlap (ie, side1), and can be "mostly" compatible with A, B and C within the areas that they overlap by double-stepping (ie: the even 96tpi tracks line up with the 48tpi drive tracks. There is an issue with the head being "thinner" which can cause some incompatibilities when disks are written on a 48 tpi drive, then re-written on a 96tpi drive, and then read on a 48 tpi drive - this is due to remanents of the original pattern remaining at the edges after a thinner track is laid down by the 96tpi drive head causing confusion when it's read back with the wider 48tpi drive head. E can be compatible with D and F within the areas that they overlap provided it is run at low-density and 300rpm, or 360rpm with a modified data rate. It can also be compatible with A, B and C by the use of double stepping. G is incompatible with all others, because the 100 tpi tracks have a different spacing and therefore you cannot position the head over all tracks of a 48 or 96 tpi written diskette. Make sense? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 7 08:31:29 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 08:31:29 -0500 Subject: DECnet on the 'net In-Reply-To: <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <200706062227.l56MR1Ou091305@dewey.classiccmp.org> <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070607082415.06b24eb0@mail> At 11:38 PM 6/6/2007, Dave Mitton wrote: >I'd used to say that I produced the last implementation of DECnet Phase IV in PathWORKS for Windows 95. >But these guys doing the Linux DECnet have taken that away from me. >http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/ Circa 1991, my company made and sold a version of DECnet for the Amiga, a licensed port of a Mac DECnet called TSSnet from Thursby Software. Thursby's was originally written in Mac Pascal. We ported that to C on top of the Amiga's SANA II network stack, which allowed you to run other network stacks like TCP/IP at the same time. It worked with X Window and included NCP, Netmail (which I wrote from scratch), network file copy and file access listener. - John From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jun 7 10:06:33 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 08:06:33 -0700 Subject: DECnet on the 'net In-Reply-To: <465670BB0024FA36@n007.sc1.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <002501c7a915$6fedeee0$1401010a@Rhyme> > I seem to remember that there was a group of people bridging their > DECnet over TCP to connect various sites over the Internet. I can't > seem to find them this minute. It's called HECnet (don't blame me - I didn't think of that name :-) We've got several dozen machines at a dozen or so locations around the world connected, and we're happy to have more join. To connect, you'll need either - A VAX running OVMS and Multinet (they have a hobbyist license, and also a DECnet-over-IP implementation). If you have multiple local DECnet machines and your VAX is a DECnet router, then they can all play with this one gateway. Or - A Un*x box of some variety running Johnny's DECNet bridge program. In this case the Un*x box is in addition to whatever other DECnet machines you have on your local network. You'll also need an Internet connection (of course), and a _static_ IP. Contact me off the list if you're interested in connecting and I'll point you in the right direction. Bob Armstrong From wulfcub at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 11:09:00 2007 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:09:00 -0500 Subject: DEC H775-BA and H3213-3400 in Kansas Message-ID: While cleaning out a storage area (indoors), I found an H3213-3400 psu and an H775-BA remote battery backup unit. As I recall, these both came out of a Xerox 9700 controller cabinet, and the H3213 worked when we last fired it up. The BBU hasn't had a battery pack on it in at least 11 years (as long as I've been with the company), so I have no idea whether or not it works. They're both free for the taking. Pick them up, or arrange to have them shipped. Both are fairly heavy and the 3213 is rather large. Located in Wichita, Ks. May trade for C= 128 gear. Thanks! --Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 7 11:49:44 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 12:49:44 -0400 Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio Message-ID: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> here's a neat I device i don't recall ever hearing about... http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/07/forgotten_tech_atari_portfolio/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 7 11:50:44 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 09:50:44 -0700 Subject: DECnet on the 'net In-Reply-To: <002501c7a915$6fedeee0$1401010a@Rhyme> References: <002501c7a915$6fedeee0$1401010a@Rhyme> Message-ID: At 8:06 AM -0700 6/7/07, Robert Armstrong wrote: > - A VAX running OVMS and Multinet (they have a hobbyist license, and also a >DECnet-over-IP implementation). If you have multiple local DECnet machines >and your VAX is a DECnet router, then they can all play with this one >gateway. And I just discovered an interesting "problem" with Multinet, it appears to work with the license expired until you reboot. My site is currently off-line as I'd taken my router down due to thunderstorms. Now I have the fun of getting my licenses sorted out. Here is a dated map of HECnet. http://www.tholian.demon.co.uk/HECnet/dcnmap.html If my site was online, the following would work, as it is, it will only report on my two nodes. http://www.avanthar.com:8080/nodes/ Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 7 12:02:13 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 10:02:13 -0700 Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio In-Reply-To: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> References: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: At 12:49 PM -0400 6/7/07, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > here's a neat I device i don't recall ever hearing about... >http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/07/forgotten_tech_atari_portfolio/ I so wanted one of those when they came out! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From evan at snarc.net Thu Jun 7 12:04:34 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 13:04:34 -0400 Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio In-Reply-To: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <004701c7a925$eccde8b0$6401a8c0@evan> The Portfolio really isn't very rare. Easily obtained, plenty of good support on the web. It was a peer of other late-1980s clamshells such as the HP-95, Poqet/Fujitsu, Sharp PC-3000, etc. ... actually the Portfolio's major claim to fame was an appearance in the movie "Terminator 2". -----Original Message----- From: Dave Woyciesjes [mailto:woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net] Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:50 PM To: ClassicCMP Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio here's a neat I device i don't recall ever hearing about... http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/07/forgotten_tech_atari_portfolio/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 7 12:36:57 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 10:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Govliq HP alignment pack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <942133.14084.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> HP SERVO ALIGNMENT KIT for some type of HP cartridge drive. http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1239372&categoryId=1004 Bob From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jun 7 13:05:11 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 14:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Govliq HP alignment pack In-Reply-To: <942133.14084.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <942133.14084.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > HP SERVO ALIGNMENT KIT for some type of HP cartridge drive. > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1239372&categoryId=1004 According to the manual, that's a servo reformatting kit for the 7906 drive: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/hp/disc/07906-90905_CE_Jul84.pdf Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From alhartman at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 13:08:12 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio Message-ID: <17239.74369.qm@web55306.mail.re4.yahoo.com> > From: Dave Woyciesjes > > here's a neat I device i don't recall ever hearing about... > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/07/forgotten_tech_atari_portfolio/ ===================================== I had one of these beasties... It was pretty nice. I traded it away about 10 years ago for a Apple IIC with Display. I always wanted one of the Poquets. They looked like useful devices. Al Phila, PA From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 7 13:47:57 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:47:57 -0400 Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio In-Reply-To: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> References: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <466852DD.1040800@atarimuseum.com> I bought one when it first came out. I was working for NYNEX Business Information Systems at the time, I used to track my appointments, and the cool thing was it had a speaker on the back and you could autodial numbers, so I'd use it at payphones to dial a client and let them know I'd be at their site for computer work and an approx. time. A cool peripherals was the card interface for a PC, it was an ISA board to an external expansion box with a card reader/writer on it and it made moving data to/from a PC as easy as USB thumbdrives are today. A couple of companies had HD's and other expansions for the unit. In 1999 I was contacted by a lot of commercial HVAC vendors, apparently the Portfolios were being used a controllers for HVAC's, rather interesting. One of the coolest parts of the Portfolio was Atari's Introduction, like Apple did with its full page ad's in the newspapers, Atari did a big spread in the Wall Street Journal newspaper for the Intro of the Portfolio. Great little computers, for more info, see here: http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/pccomputers/portfolio.html Curt Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > here's a neat I device i don't recall ever hearing about... > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/07/forgotten_tech_atari_portfolio/ > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 7 14:04:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 12:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070607120103.V60113@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > F: Single-Sided, 80 track, 96 tpi (can't think of any models) TM100-3 What does DEC use for that? > Still (much) less common are: > G: Double-Sided, 77 track, 100tpi (TM-100-4M) which existed primarily as a replacement for the Micropolis 100tpi. The Micropolis 5.25" drives were very reliable, but used a helical lead screw, which made them kinda slow. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 7 14:22:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 12:22:16 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070607120103.V60113@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca>, <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca>, <20070607120103.V60113@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4667F878.23378.2500D40F@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jun 2007 at 12:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Still (much) less common are: > > G: Double-Sided, 77 track, 100tpi (TM-100-4M) > which existed primarily as a replacement for the Micropolis 100tpi. > The Micropolis 5.25" drives were very reliable, but used a helical lead > screw, which made them kinda slow. Let's not forget single-sided 77 track 100 tpi (Micropolis 1015 and 1016). In construction, the antithesis of the SA-400. Built like a brick latrine. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 7 14:37:48 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 12:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio In-Reply-To: <466852DD.1040800@atarimuseum.com> References: <46683728.3040303@sbcglobal.net> <466852DD.1040800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20070607123216.V60113@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > A cool > peripherals was the card interface for a PC, it was an ISA board to an > external expansion box with a card reader/writer on it and it made > moving data to/from a PC as easy as USB thumbdrives are today. There were also [somewhat bulky] snap-on expansion blocks for serial and for parallel. It used a third party imitation of MS-DOS. But it was pretty compatible, even with many of the undocumented MS-DOS items - I was able to walk the memory control block chain, etc. I used to run DeSmet C on a 128K card. The card was NOT PCMCIA. It was one of many that fell by the wayside when PCMCIA ("People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms") got standardized. (Poqet used pre-standard PCMCIA) It could be unfolded flat, and the hinges were sturdy. (Poqet hinges were inadequate) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From futte at sygnok.dk Thu Jun 7 10:41:50 2007 From: futte at sygnok.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Lauridsen?=) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 17:41:50 +0200 Subject: IBM ps/2 P70 Plasma screen voltages Message-ID: <20070607154150.84F871911FBC2@csmtp1.b-one.net> Hello Thomas I found an old forum where you were asking about the power connector pinout for the IBM Plasma Display 38F4744 from an IBM P70 computer. I hope you found the pinout because i really hope you stille have it, and would like to send it to me? I also hope that you have the pinout for the 26 pins data connector? Hope you can help me!! >From S?ren Lauridsen, Denmark From blakespot at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 11:59:37 2007 From: blakespot at gmail.com (Blake Patterson) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 12:59:37 -0400 Subject: Original Mac 128 (M0001) selling Message-ID: <4b7d63a40706070959u2fb36146r5c73635e3ac64b8f@mail.gmail.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120129551212 If anyone interested, FYI. bp -- Heisenberg may have slept here. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 7 15:38:14 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 21:38:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Article: Atari Portfolio In-Reply-To: <004701c7a925$eccde8b0$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <850023.74696.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Wasn't it used to by young John Connor to hack into the ATM machine? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Evan Koblentz wrote: The Portfolio really isn't very rare. Easily obtained, plenty of good support on the web. It was a peer of other late-1980s clamshells such as the HP-95, Poqet/Fujitsu, Sharp PC-3000, etc. ... actually the Portfolio's major claim to fame was an appearance in the movie "Terminator 2". From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 7 16:53:54 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 16:53:54 -0500 Subject: Govliq HP alignment pack References: <942133.14084.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001401c7a94e$5a1c3610$6500a8c0@BILLING> Bob wrote.... >> HP SERVO ALIGNMENT KIT for some type of HP cartridge drive. >> >> http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1239372&categoryId=1004 To which Mike replied... > According to the manual, that's a servo reformatting kit for the 7906 > drive: > > http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/hp/disc/07906-90905_CE_Jul84.pdf All I see in the case at least is the pack. Is it a head alignment pack or a servo reference pack (they are different animals)? Perhaps the other required items are underneath? Just a pack won't rewrite your servo data on a 7905/7906 drive. You need a special servo formatting head (and temporarily replace head 0), the servo formatting pca, and a special head alignment preamp pca. To "do it right", there's some special hand tools required, the degauser, and the DSU. In addition, there are several other things that are "as long has you have it torn apart you really should do" items. I did get a complete toolkit in an aircraft aluminum case that includes all the stuff above, and it definitely contained things that aren't in the pictured case (or at least I'd be hard pressed to imagine them fitting in the above case). Maybe it's just the cartridge. Or maybe it's a much fatter case than mine and the stuff is stacked under the cartridge. I dunno. Jay From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 7 16:56:42 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 22:56:42 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <001001c7a94e$bd4ad610$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I >find I get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens >as compared to CRTs. Well, the last two CRTs I bought are flat-screen so I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at. The biggest problems with LCD panels are colour registration, black level/contrast and response time. Even with top of the range panels, their comparatively slow response time leads to very noticable blurring when things move around on the screen - and I'm not talking about games here, I find this blurring totally unacceptable even when scrolling text windows, etc. And the colour/contrast/black level problems are a total show stopper when I'm dealing with video.... > I don't know whether this just means every CRT I've used has been crap, >or perhaps I *am* "profoundly blind", but even if so, in my experience >the comparison stands. I wouldn't have thought so, IME even the cheapest/crappest CRT is head and shoulders above even the most expensive LCD panel. It all depends what your expectations are.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 7 17:08:54 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 23:08:54 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk><200706061312.JAA09587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4666B7EC.6030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001501c7a950$7041d970$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....but the difference is very quickly going away. It won't be >long before there's effectively none.... Ah, but how long before *cheap* (sub ?130) LCD monitors reach that level of performance? Considering how cheaply CRT monitors can be had now, e.g. this 17" Hansol I'm using now cost me just ?20 brand new, I'm not prepared to pay more than ?100ish for *any* LCD monitor. >....also have easily higher resolution than a flat panel of similar >size.... Not to mention that using an LCD flat panel at anything other than it's native resolution causes all sorts of horrible atrifacting problems - which is currently the second biggest problem with LCD TV sets (the biggest being the unreliability of the back-lighting). >....But the flat panels use *soo* much less power. Ah, but they also take up *SO* much less space....this 17" CRT I'm using now is huge, and my 21" monitor is so big I can't currently use it thanks to space constraints. :-( TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 7 17:14:07 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 23:14:07 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available References: Message-ID: <002c01c7a951$2ab55340$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Check out Advanced Circuits www.4pcb.com Just out of interest, are there any similar cheap PCB manufacturing companies in the UK? TTFN - Pete. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 7 17:43:20 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 16:43:20 -0600 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <002c01c7a951$2ab55340$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <002c01c7a951$2ab55340$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46688A08.4070405@jetnet.ab.ca> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > Just out of interest, are there any similar cheap PCB manufacturing > companies in the UK? I think the concept *cheap labor* is why you have cheap PCB manufacturing. Does "Electronics and Wireless World" have somebody doing PCB's for them? I remember a lot of good projects but very little about the PCB's and stuff when I could get it in Canada. > TTFN - Pete. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 7 17:27:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 23:27:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <005801c7a8b2$9f5a9fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jun 7, 7 04:19:11 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > And some early Sony 3.5" drives turn at 600 rpm, using twice > >the normal data rate.... > > I'd forgotten about those, they were used in the Apricot PC and PC/Xi. ISTR > they were 70 track devices too. HP used them _a lot_, bot hthe signle-head and double-head versions. AFAIK they were actually 80 cylinder drives, with the normal 135tpi spacing. Certainly on the double-head ones, HP formatted 77 user cylinders, the last 3 were reserved for replacements for bad blocks, the bad block map, etc. There as a later Sony drive, also 600rpm, that HP put in the 9114B and, IIRC, 9153. This is a half-height unit, with many parts in common with the Apple 800K drive (head carriage, stepper motor, motor control ICs, analogue ASIC, etc). The version that HP used has a single 34 pin conenctor, pinout very similar to an SA400 (and thus a PC drive), but with power on some of the odd-numbered pins. But from the scheamtics, it's clear that moving soldered links would make all those odd-numbered pins ground, and there is a place on the PCB for a normal 4 pin power connector. Be warned that the oldder, full-height models have a nasty problem. The grease on the eject mechanusm goes hard with age, and this then doesn't latch properly,. On a double-head drive, the upper head can then get caught in the disk shutter when you eject the disk. It's possible to rip the head right off the gimbal spring. If you have one of the older drives, you might want to look for the recent articles about erparing the HP9114 drive on the forum at http://www.hpmuseum.org . There's a link from one of them to a document on repairing the 9114, the last part of that docuemnt is an article I wrote on taking the drive apart and cleaning off the grease. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 7 17:58:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:58:48 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: References: <005801c7a8b2$9f5a9fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jun 7, 7 04:19:11 am, Message-ID: <46682B38.29615.25C70E95@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jun 2007 at 23:27, Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK they were actually 80 cylinder drives, with the normal 135tpi > spacing. Certainly on the double-head ones, HP formatted 77 user > cylinders, the last 3 were reserved for replacements for bad blocks, the > bad block map, etc. ...and there were also the 300 RPM 40 cylinder 3.5" DS2D drives at 67.5 tpi, used on a few CP/M systems as well as many inexpensive word processors. There were also some 600 RPM Sony 67.5 tpi SS drives. I think the Preis boxes used them. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 7 18:08:32 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 16:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <46682B38.29615.25C70E95@cclist.sydex.com> References: <005801c7a8b2$9f5a9fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jun 7, 7 04:19:11 am, <46682B38.29615.25C70E95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070607160728.O69592@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and there were also the 300 RPM 40 cylinder 3.5" DS2D drives at > 67.5 tpi, used on a few CP/M systems as well as many inexpensive word > processors. used by the Epson Geneva/PX8 > There were also some 600 RPM Sony 67.5 tpi SS drives. I think the > Preis boxes used them. . . . and what was in the Tandy portable disk drive #1 for the model 100? From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Jun 7 18:29:00 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 7 Jun 2007 16:29:00 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <1181258940.466894bc45359@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Dave Dunfield : -snip- > Less common, but I've run into a couple are: > > F: Single-Sided, 80 track, 96 tpi (can't think of any models) -Again SNIP- I'm pretty sure that the RX-50 falls into this category From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jun 7 18:38:34 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 16:38:34 -0700 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? Message-ID: > > The shiny, ultra-thin paper often found in databooks actually seems to > fare > better than coarser "book" type paper in my experience. I'm not sure > why - > maybe it's more resistant to absorbing moisture from the air or > something. > Moisture is a problem only if it's really high (mold predominantly, although sizing can soften and stick pages together). The big problem with many paperbacks is the so-called "high acid" paper with appreciable quantities of lignin in it - the lignin changes into acid and causes the paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, crumbling paperbacks... I'm not sure what the paper of choice for databooks is, generally if a book uses sized bond paper it's not at highest risk, but for the most part wood paper made before the '80s will have some degree of risk (and more modern papers that are not acid-free archival grade). LOC (Library of Congress) has a fairly large group devoted to this problem, and a process fior neutralization that works pretty well (although if you do it wrong or make a mistake stuff bursts into flame). They point out that it is "not recommended for those who are not professionals". From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 7 18:52:41 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 16:52:41 -0700 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? Message-ID: <46689A49.9060301@bitsavers.org> General book conservation techniques can be found here http://www.philobiblon.com/gbwarticle/gbwjournalarticle.htm My personal preference is to debind and scan. National and AMD data books used very low grade paper, as did the people who produced IC Masters. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 7 19:06:20 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:06:20 -0600 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Quinn wrote: > Moisture is a problem only if it's really high (mold predominantly, > although sizing can soften and stick pages together). The big problem > with many paperbacks is the so-called "high acid" paper with appreciable > quantities of lignin in it - the lignin changes into acid and causes the > paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, crumbling paperbacks... Umm ... DEC's paperbacks. > I'm not sure what the paper of choice for databooks is, generally if a > book uses sized bond paper it's not at highest risk, but for the most > part wood paper made before the '80s will have some degree of risk (and > more modern papers that are not acid-free archival grade). So can anything be done for them? > LOC (Library of Congress) has a fairly large group devoted to this > problem, and a process fior neutralization that works pretty well > (although if you do it wrong or make a mistake stuff bursts into flame). > They point out that it is "not recommended for those who are not > professionals". > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 19:45:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 17:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mindset schematics Message-ID: <889036.75310.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> A long shot I know, but does anyone have any service docs for these things? I tentatively have 6 at the moment! and of the lot only 1 works. Oi. Halp. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From jrr at flippers.com Thu Jun 7 19:20:51 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 17:20:51 -0700 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 6:06 PM -0600 6/7/07, woodelf wrote: >Scott Quinn wrote: > >>Moisture is a problem only if it's really high (mold predominantly, >>although sizing can soften and stick pages together). The big >>problem with many paperbacks is the so-called "high acid" paper >>with appreciable quantities of lignin in it - the lignin changes >>into acid and causes the paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, >>crumbling paperbacks... > >Umm ... DEC's paperbacks. > >>I'm not sure what the paper of choice for databooks is, generally >>if a book uses sized bond paper it's not at highest risk, but for >>the most part wood paper made before the '80s will have some degree >>of risk (and more modern papers that are not acid-free archival >>grade). > >So can anything be done for them? One thing you can do is store the books in tightly sealed plastic bags - the browning on the paper is caused by oxygen in the air...the pages are actually oxidizing slooooowwwwllllly (very slow fire). Check with your local public library for suggestions on how to protect old paper - you can make a base solution mixture for misting the pages to neutralize the remaining acid in the paper. John :-#)# > >>LOC (Library of Congress) has a fairly large group devoted to this >>problem, and a process fior neutralization that works pretty well >>(although if you do it wrong or make a mistake stuff bursts into >>flame). They point out that it is "not recommended for those who >>are not professionals". From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Jun 7 21:01:29 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 03:01:29 +0100 Subject: DSSI Terminators (12-29258-01) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FC4@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi As suspected the 5C error code during self test on my VAX 4000-300 is the missing DSSI Terminators. So.. Does anybody have spare, or know where I can get two of DEC Part number 12-29258-01 (DSSI Terminators) Rod Smallwood The DecCollector. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jun 8 02:20:04 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 09:20:04 +0200 Subject: DataGeneral documentation Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848845A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, I have put up for auction on eBay a stack of 6 inches of DataGeneral (micro) NOVA documentation. The item number is 170120175007 in case you are interested (shameless plug), but the other reason I would like to mention this auction here, is that if you are not looking for the original sheets of paper (as a DG collector), but you only want the printed information, you do not need to place a bid! I have scanned the whole pile and will send it to bitsavers (> 500 MB). thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 8 02:03:11 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 03:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <001001c7a94e$bd4ad610$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <003a01c7a7f0$7dc87fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <001001c7a94e$bd4ad610$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706080735.DAA15963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Well, I don't know whether they're "plasma/LCD" or not, but I find I >> get dramatically better picture quality out of flat-screens as >> compared to CRTs. > Well, the last two CRTs I bought are flat-screen so I'm not sure > exactly what you're getting at. By "flat-screen" I mean something like "display with width and height significantly greater than front-to-back depth", not "display with physically flat viewing surface"; furthermore, from context, I don't think it's all that great a stretch to also read it as "...as contrasted with CRTs, and therefore not including CRTs", which I did mean (while I understand CRTs that fit that description do exist, they are quite rare). Perhaps I should call them "flat panel" instead. I don't know whether the displays I'm talking about are LCDs, plasma, TFT, LED, or what - for all I know some of those are susbets of others, even. > The biggest problems with LCD panels are colour registration, black > level/contrast and response time. I don't know what kind of flat-panel technology I'm talking about. But I not so very long ago paid about $200 for a brand-new 1280x1024 flat panel that is substantially better, to my eye, than any CRT I would expect to get for a comparable amount of money. Possibly it's not LCD; I don't know. (It's an Acer AL1716B. I've also used a Dell something-or-other at work, and find it comparable.) In my experience, flat panels are roughly on a par with CRTs for colour registration. (I'm perfectly willing to believe this means the CRTs I've used need adjustment, but it's still true.) Black level is mildly annoying, but only very mildly - and I'm totally willing to put up with it for the sake of crisp pixel edges and no fading of thin vertical lines (each of which has been a near-universal problems with CRTs in my experience). Response time is not really an issue for me. They've got it down under 10ms, and with a vertical retrace rate of 76Hz (I just checked, that's what I'm using), there's no point worrying about differences under about 13ms (1000ms/76). > Even with top of the range panels, their comparatively slow response > time leads to very noticable blurring when things move around on the > screen - and I'm not talking about games here, I find this blurring > totally unacceptable even when scrolling text windows, etc. I find it no worse than the blurring from phosphor persistence on CRTs. (For relatively recent panels, that is, such as the ones I bought. I've got a couple of old machines with built-in flat-panel displays with substantially worse persistence issues.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 8 02:52:32 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 08:52:32 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:14:07 BST." <002c01c7a951$2ab55340$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706080752.IAA00913@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Ensor" said: > Hi, > > > Check out Advanced Circuits www.4pcb.com > > Just out of interest, are there any similar cheap PCB manufacturing > companies in the UK? http://www.pcb-pool.com http://www.pcb-value.co.uk http://www.rak.co.uk http://www.pcbtrain.com adinfo at agarcircuits.com I can't comment on the quality of their services, I just happened to have a magazine on the desk with their adverts in. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cc at corti-net.de Fri Jun 8 03:20:28 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 10:20:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070607120103.V60113@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706071212.l57CCfur030163@hosting.monisys.ca> <20070607120103.V60113@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >> F: Single-Sided, 80 track, 96 tpi (can't think of any models) > TM100-3 And TEAC FD-55E (I have two of them, coming from an old Tandem front-end console system). Christian From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Jun 8 06:03:14 2007 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:03:14 +0200 Subject: DataGeneral documentation In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848845A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848845A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <46693772.3070109@bluewin.ch> > information, you do not need to place a bid! I have scanned > the whole pile and will send it to bitsavers (> 500 MB). > > thanks, > - Henk. > Alvast bedankt Henk ! Does it cover the MP/200 ? Jos From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jun 8 06:10:32 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 13:10:32 +0200 Subject: DataGeneral documentation In-Reply-To: <46693772.3070109@bluewin.ch> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848845A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <46693772.3070109@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848845D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos > Dreesen / Marian Capel > Sent: vrijdag 8 juni 2007 13:03 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DataGeneral documentation > > > information, you do not need to place a bid! I have > scanned the whole > > pile and will send it to bitsavers (> 500 MB). > > > > thanks, > > - Henk. > > > > Alvast bedankt Henk ! > > Does it cover the MP/200 ? > > Jos > > Can not remember that. AFAIK, it is NOVA stuff and peripherals only. I can send an e-mail (privately) with a list of the titles and document numbers. The zip file is 3k. groeten, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 8 06:18:05 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 07:18:05 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070608111805.23BD8BA4463@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> woodelf wrote: > > quantities of lignin in it - the lignin changes into acid and causes the > > paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, crumbling paperbacks... > > Umm ... DEC's paperbacks. And putting on the wayback machine, this is what Doug Jones was doing in the previous millenium to preserve the early (60's) DEC paperbacks. > > I'm not sure what the paper of choice for databooks is, generally if a > > book uses sized bond paper it's not at highest risk, but for the most > > part wood paper made before the '80s will have some degree of risk (and > > more modern papers that are not acid-free archival grade). > > So can anything be done for them? Absolutely. Cut off the binding and scan. Or if you insist on not doing that, then follow the procedure which Al mentions by reference as have several others of us here previously in this thread and previously in similar threads that appear several times a year. > > LOC (Library of Congress) has a fairly large group devoted to this > > problem, and a process fior neutralization that works pretty well > > (although if you do it wrong or make a mistake stuff bursts into flame). > > They point out that it is "not recommended for those who are not > > professionals". I've done it in classes taught and led and supervised by professionals :-). That doesn't make me a pro! Tim. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 8 08:47:47 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 06:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706080735.DAA15963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Jun 8, 7 03:03:11 am" Message-ID: <200706081347.l58DllHQ009266@floodgap.com> > In my experience, flat panels are roughly on a par with CRTs for colour > registration. (I'm perfectly willing to believe this means the CRTs > I've used need adjustment, but it's still true.) They need adjustment :) For colour proofing, especially video and photography, people still rely on CRTs (I know I do). It's not so much the *hue* that's the issue, but greys and gamma. You yourself even notice it: > Black level is mildly annoying, but only very mildly - and I'm totally > willing to put up with it for the sake of crisp pixel edges and no > fading of thin vertical lines (each of which has been a near-universal > problems with CRTs in my experience). CRTs are non-linear on the low end of the gamma curve, yielding darker and more even blacks/dark greys, while LCDs use a linear gamma that has a lot of artifacting in the low end. In addition, LCDs' grey contours tend to be compressed, yielding sharper, less-attractive gradations (which is why operating systems like OS X have different settings for antialiasing depending on if you are using an LCD or a CRT). Even though LCDs actually have better colour -- believe it or not, most LCD elements of reasonable quality do indeed have similar or better colour saturation than reasonable quality CRT phosphors -- their inability to properly render smooth tones, made worse by the uneven display illumination even in many medium-quality panels, makes it very hard to do professional image work with them because the lightness and noisiness of the image is so difficult to assess accurately. When I want to determine how an image "actually looks," I will take it to my 19" CRT -- and I use Apple LCDs, which are not cheap displays. But, LCDs are getting better. I think LED displays will be better yet. Some links with food for thought: http://www.macworld.com/2001/06/features/color/index.php http://www.displaymate.com/ShootOut_Comparison.htm http://broadcastengineering.com/newsrooms/broadcasting_gamma_correction/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Roger Waters to moving crew: "Hey! Careful with those racks, Eugene!" ------ From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Jun 8 09:18:40 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:18:40 -0400 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070607160728.O69592@shell.lmi.net> References: <46682B38.29615.25C70E95@cclist.sydex.com> <005801c7a8b2$9f5a9fb0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46682B38.29615.25C70E95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070608100938.012c47e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: >. . . and what was in the Tandy portable disk drive #1 for the model 100? Dunno the drive manufacturer, but I can tell you it was SS/SD, either 40track (TPDD1) or 80 track (TPDD2), with two sectors of 1280 bytes each IIRC, thereby getting 100K or 200K storage respectively. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 8 09:45:12 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:45:12 -0400 Subject: Mindset schematics In-Reply-To: <889036.75310.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <889036.75310.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46696B78.9060108@atarimuseum.com> Hi Chris, I've spoken with numerous former Mindset people, it seems when JVC swallowed them up, the docs were all transferred to JVC and strangely, no one kept their own copies. I would love to find ANY technical doc's on the Mindsets, understand its expansion bus and such. So far, no joy :-( I've fixed quite a few Mindsets, I have 4 M1000's and 2 M3000's, a few expansion modules and quite a lot of accessories and peripherals carts. Check with Bruce over at Digibarn and see if perhaps he's obtained any techdocs, he had a pretty respectable donation or acquisition of Mindset equipment a few years back and maybe he lucked out and go some schem's or other technical materials, if he has or if you find any, please let me know, thanks. Curt Chris M wrote: > A long shot I know, but does anyone have any service > docs for these things? I tentatively have 6 at the > moment! and of the lot only 1 works. Oi. Halp. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html > > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 8 10:49:22 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 09:49:22 -0600 Subject: govliq: 80MB CDC drive pack (French Camp, CA) Message-ID: CONTROL DATA STORAGE MODULE DRIVES BJ7XX 80 MB -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 8 10:50:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 09:50:56 -0600 Subject: govliq: (6) VAX 11/780 power supplies (H7112-A) NIB (Jacksonville, FL) Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 8 17:08:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 23:08:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070607160728.O69592@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 7, 7 04:08:32 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ...and there were also the 300 RPM 40 cylinder 3.5" DS2D drives at > > 67.5 tpi, used on a few CP/M systems as well as many inexpensive word > > processors. > > used by the Epson Geneva/PX8 Ah yes, the PF10. Now that was a strange drive. There's one PCB inside that contains the control processor (6303 IIRC), EPROM, RAM, disk controller chip _and_ the head amplifier, stepper drivers, etc. There's no separate drive logic board. And yes, it's 67.5 TPI. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 8 17:17:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 23:17:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available In-Reply-To: <200706080752.IAA00913@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jun 8, 7 08:52:32 am Message-ID: > http://www.pcb-pool.com > http://www.pcb-value.co.uk > http://www.rak.co.uk > http://www.pcbtrain.com > adinfo at agarcircuits.com > > I can't comment on the quality of their services, I just happened to have > a magazine on the desk with their adverts in. I've not used any of them, but a friend of mine who does electronic design and prototyping has used PCBtrain and had no problems. -tony From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 8 17:31:56 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 23:31:56 +0100 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? References: <46689D7C.2010109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002001c7aa1c$d2576ea0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>...paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, crumbling >>paperbacks... > > Umm ... DEC's paperbacks. Actually, my 1979 onwards PDP-11 handbooks are fine. They're printed paper which looks slightly glossy and haven't yet started deteriorating (noticably anyway). OTOH, my early/mid 70's PDP-11 and PDP-8 books are smouldering nicely.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Jun 8 20:50:56 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 18:50:56 -0700 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? Message-ID: <08adf7d33361cf2fea950e856020db99@valleyimplants.com> Tim wrote: > I've done it in classes taught and led and supervised by professionals > :-). > That doesn't make me a pro! > > Tim. > Diethyl Zinc process? Brave man... Magnesium Oxide/perflourocarbon could work for the amateur, though. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 9 07:36:52 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 08:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know anything about old TEC Terminals? In-Reply-To: <200706081347.l58DllHQ009266@floodgap.com> References: <200706081347.l58DllHQ009266@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200706091254.IAA04463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > For colour proofing, especially video and photography, people still > rely on CRTs (I know I do). No surprise there. I wouldn't maintain flat-panels are better in *all* respects! But for people who don't need that kind of detailed colour fidelity (which includes me and most people at $DAYJOB, for example), that issue slides down the priority list, often well below other things. > CRTs are non-linear on the low end of the gamma curve, yielding > darker and more even blacks/dark greys, while LCDs use a linear gamma > that has a lot of artifacting in the low end. Artifacting? I just tried a grey wash (black at one end to white at the other) and the only things I see that could be called artifacts are, I think, actually Mach bands. (I don't have a good light meter available to actually measure the emitted light.) > In addition, LCDs' grey contours tend to be compressed, yielding > sharper, less-attractive gradations (which is why operating systems > like OS X have different settings for antialiasing depending on if > you are using an LCD or a CRT). You'll need that just because of the different gamma curve. (Unless the antialiasing code inverts the gamma before and after operation, you'll need different antialiasing for different gamma curves.) > When I want to determine how an image "actually looks," I will take > it to my 19" CRT -- and I use Apple LCDs, which are not cheap > displays. Surely you should be using whatever the image's target will be using, since that will give you the most accurate impression of what your end consumers will be seeing? > But, LCDs are getting better. I think LED displays will be better > yet. True. CRT displays are a relatively mature technology at the moment; flat panels are relatively new. (Not that that invalidates current comparisons; it just means they're likely to change soon.) From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jun 9 11:55:26 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 17:55:26 +0100 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <200706061237.l56Cb5Sj012854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <000501c7aab6$fc117200$5b01a8c0@uatempname> I've found a working 5.25" 1.2MB drive (Mitsubishi MF504C-310MP) and a 3.5" 1.44MB drive (NEC FD1231T). Both drives can successfully format LD and HD media. I can fill disks and copy stuff off with no apparent issues. I'm booting DOS 6.22 off a 20MB partition on a 3GB drive. Dave Dunfield wrote: > To completely test the FDC, you need to check Single, Double and > Double/128 at each of 250, 300 and 500 kbps rates. These are > represented in a standard PC at: > > 250 = 5.25 low-density drive only, 3.5" low-density diskette > 300 = 5.25 Low-density diskette in high-density drive > 500 = 5.25" or 2.5" high-density diskette Before I go through a bunch of motherboards and find I've made an elementary mistake, I want to check that what I'm seeing is OK for a "typical" modern motherboard. FWIW this is a Gigabyte GA-7DXR+ and it takes Athlon/Athlon XP CPUs, the Super I/O controller is a VT82C686B ... just so you have an idea of what I've started with. I have the 5.25" drive as A: and the 3.5 drive as B: (and the BIOS has been told what they are). When I test the 3.5" drive I see a pass at 250k DD (with a 720K disk) and a pass at 500k DD (with a 1.44MB disk) and the other four cases fail. I think that means it can read/write the 720K and 1.44MB PC-style diskettes, so it doesn't buy me anything "odd" but the results do at least correspond with expected reality. When I test the 5.25" drive I see a pass at 300k DD (with a 360K disk) but with the 1.2MB disk I see three failures. I was expecting 500k DD to pass with a 1.2MB disk ... am I wrong? I've tried twice with the same results and I've reformatted the 1.2MB disk afterwards and in each case it formats with no errors. Are my expectations in error or am I slipping up somewhere? BTW: I'm not likely to find a fully-passing motherboard in the set of "modern" ones that I'm testing now. Any ideas how far back in time I need to go to find something that I can use as the basis of a "media archiving" machine? Most of the "PPP PPP PPP" ones are P1 systems. Although I have a bunch of older motherboards and processors, I'm not sure that I have "matching pairs" (or the docs to determine such, where separate components are involved). Ideally I'll find an add-in Adaptec board or similar, but, in case I don't, I'd like to minimise my search :-) Thanks Antonio From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 9 04:26:35 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 10:26:35 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FC9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> My sale or swap list (Update) (All funds to save other old DEC kit) PDP 11/94 (No cpu cards) x2 VT 420 x1 (-) LA75 x1 x1 (-) HP 700 Terminal x1 HP 2392A Terminal x1 Shiva LAN Rover x1 Victor PC in pristine condx. x1 SA600 (2 x RA92) Disk array in Cab x1 CXA16-M (M3118-YA) 16 Async line board x3 (+) VAX 4000-500 CPU Card (L4002-BA) x1 (+) VAX 4000-500 MEM Card L4004-CT x1 (+) Decserver 200/MC DSRVB-AB Ethernet AUI in 8x 25way D RS232 out. x5 (+) (-) One or more sold or swapped. (+) One or more added From pludikar at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 9 06:55:48 2007 From: pludikar at sympatico.ca (Peter) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 07:55:48 -0400 Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <200706081711.l58HAjoL019096@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> Hi, I have a Sony MP-F52W-30 floppy disk drive, which I need to replace - it semi worked until recently (would read but not write) until I zapped it by accident. It comes from an HP 1650B logic analyzer - does anyone know if it's a 600rpm or a standard 300rpm device? If it's a 600rpm then I've found someone who has one but wants a lot for it, otherwise I'm reasonably sure I can modify the cable connections to use a standard/modern drive. On the motherboard side, it has a Zilog Z0765A FDC, and I've successfully created disks on my PC (using HP's LIFUTIL) that worked on the drive. This makes me think that the drive is a standard 300rpm. Any thoughts? Curiously the serial number label indicates the drive as a MFD-52W-10, while the bigger label on the bottom of the unit shows MP-F52W-30. I guess that the MFD is a base which is then modified to HP's specs (MP-F). BTW Does anyone know what the -10, -30 suffixes mean? I've also seen -00D and -01D around as well. Thanks in advance Peter From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 9 12:53:04 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 13:53:04 -0400 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <20070606215900.G28411@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706061823.l56INQOD017701@hosting.monisys.ca> <200706062352.25249.rtellason@verizon.net> <20070606215900.G28411@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200706091353.04641.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 07 June 2007 01:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > So Dave, what's the deal with those oddball 5.25" drives? I'm > > remembering vaguely some that were 96tpi, and one (?) that was > > supposedly 100tpi... > > Dave is testing the FDC, not the physical parameters of the drive. Ok... > 96tpi DSDD was common briefly, but was never used in the PC, except for > the PC-JX. To the disk controller, it is the same as a 3.5" "720K". > Teac 55F, Shugart 465, Tandon TM100-4, Mitsubishi 4853, etc > > > Micropolis came out with a 100tpi (77 track) 5.25" drive. It never really > caught on. Tandon made a replacement drive for that - TM100-4M. I *think* that CBM used one in one of their boxes too, maybe the 8050? It's been a while so I'd have to double-check that to be sure... > With a few exceptions, the 96tpi formats cqan be done using a 1.2M drive. > Teac 55FG is deliberately intende3d for both "720K" and 1.2M use. > The only exceptions would be drive where the stepper switches to double > stepping when in "low density" mode, or using a 250K or 300K data transfer > rate. Noted. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 9 12:54:50 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 13:54:50 -0400 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? In-Reply-To: <20070607104155.4DA7DBA445D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <612547.48965.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <200706062349.23858.rtellason@verizon.net> <20070607104155.4DA7DBA445D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200706091354.50950.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 07 June 2007 06:41, Tim Shoppa wrote: > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > On Wednesday 06 June 2007 14:18, Chris M wrote: > > > how about a sheet feeder Roy, bought(?) or home made? > > > Then you could cut off the bindings, then feed them > > > in. It's what I'm going to do...one of these days. > > > > Nope. I don't see a need to destroy the books to get that info in > > there... > > Most databooks are printed on variable-to-poor quality paper and > will not last forever anyway. If you don't want to destroy them that > badly, then hopefully you will have them treated to neutralize the > acid in the paper. Most of the ones I have don't seem to have that problem, fortunately. > Most such books end up "too much trouble to scan but too valuable to > shear off the binding to make scanning easier" so the owner ends up > throwing them away. Not too likely in my case. :-) > Doug Jones has a good web page on paperback/databook type preservation: > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/book/ I'll have a look. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 9 12:59:56 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 10:59:56 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage Message-ID: <466AEA9C.2050405@bitsavers.org> > Athlon/Athlon XP CPUs, the > Super I/O controller is a VT82C686B ... > When I test the 5.25" drive I see a pass at 300k DD (with a 360K disk) > but with the 1.2MB disk I see three failures. I was expecting 500k DD > to pass with a 1.2MB disk ... am I wrong? I sent Dave about a dozen MB tests that I did on various MBs recently. There was one case where 1.2MB 500k DD failed, but read/wrote in DOS. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 9 13:59:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 11:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> References: <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> Message-ID: <20070609115535.K57537@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 9 Jun 2007, Peter wrote: > I have a Sony MP-F52W-30 floppy disk drive, which I need to replace - it > semi worked until recently (would read but not write) until I zapped it by > accident. Can you repair it, instead of replacing? There are some double sided Sonys around (check with Tony?) with physical head damage, but intact electronics. > It comes from an HP 1650B logic analyzer - does anyone know if > it's a 600rpm or a standard 300rpm device? not offhand > If it's a 600rpm then I've found > someone who has one but wants a lot for it, otherwise I'm reasonably sure I > can modify the cable connections to use a standard/modern drive. Can you change the data transfer rate produced by the controller? > On the motherboard side, it has a Zilog Z0765A FDC, and I've successfully > created disks on my PC (using HP's LIFUTIL) that worked on the drive. This > makes me think that the drive is a standard 300rpm. Any thoughts? no. 600RPM at 500K data transfer rate (Sony) is the same format spec as 300RPM at 250K data transfer rate (PC "720K" hardware) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 9 14:17:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:17:00 -0700 Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> References: <200706081711.l58HAjoL019096@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> Message-ID: <466A9A3C.26562.2F48B4A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2007 at 7:55, Peter wrote: > On the motherboard side, it has a Zilog Z0765A FDC, and I've successfully > created disks on my PC (using HP's LIFUTIL) that worked on the drive. This > makes me think that the drive is a standard 300rpm. Any thoughts? My notes say that it's a 600 RPM drive with a 26-pin interface. It hard to say much beyond that without going into how the drive is jumpered. Maybe Tony has one of these--I don't any more. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 9 14:20:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:20:40 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <466AEA9C.2050405@bitsavers.org> References: <466AEA9C.2050405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <466A9B18.5232.2F4C1149@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2007 at 10:59, Al Kossow wrote: > I sent Dave about a dozen MB tests that I did on various MBs recently. > There was one case where 1.2MB 500k DD failed, but read/wrote in DOS. Unfortunately, (and the VIA Super South Bridge) is one of the cases, the integrated FDC can be configured about six ways till Sunday, including PS/2 mode. DOS function will always work because DOS uses the BIOS routines to access the drive--and the BIOS knows all about the weirdnesses of the support chips. OTOH, the VIA SSB chip has a neat mode allowing for interface to a floppy drive using the parallel port. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jun 9 15:19:09 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:19:09 -0400 Subject: HP 1650b boot floppy; was Re: Anyone know the rotation speed... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 09 Jun 2007 07:55:48 EDT." <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> Message-ID: <200706092019.l59KJ9J4027732@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Peter" wrote: > >On the motherboard side, it has a Zilog Z0765A FDC, and I've successfully >created disks on my PC (using HP's LIFUTIL) that worked on the drive. This >makes me think that the drive is a standard 300rpm. Any thoughts? Interesting. I found that program but have not tried it. I did try to "image" the boot disk for a 1650B with linux but had no luck at all. I just wanted to create a backup & duplicate of the disk. Is LIFUTIL my only option? -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 9 15:47:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 21:47:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <001701c7aa8d$1f796ab0$6500a8c0@Mum> from "Peter" at Jun 9, 7 07:55:48 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > I have a Sony MP-F52W-30 floppy disk drive, which I need to replace - it > semi worked until recently (would read but not write) until I zapped it by > accident. It comes from an HP 1650B logic analyzer - does anyone know if > it's a 600rpm or a standard 300rpm device? If it's a 600rpm then I've found > someone who has one but wants a lot for it, otherwise I'm reasonably sure I > can modify the cable connections to use a standard/modern drive. I don;t know that specific number, but the MP-F52W-50 is the half-height drive used in the 9114B. It has a single 34 pin connector, power on the odd-numbered pin,s and is a 600rpm drive. Go to http://www.hpmuseum.net/ and follow the links for disks and then the 9114. On the 'product documentation' page you'll find 'my' schematics for the 9114V. That includes the drive itself. You may be able to compare your drive with the schematics to see how similar it is. My guess is it'll be very similar, with perhaps a few links changed, and will be a 600rpm drive. I don;t know what's wrong with your drive, but as I said the other day, many parts are the same as in an Apple 800K drive. The only main part you can't get from there is the digital ASIC. Unfortunately (for you), the half-height drives don't suffer the smae dried-up grease problems as the full-height ones. So you won't find one with a head ripped off, which you could then use as a source of electronic parts. And the half-height drives are rarer than the full-heigth ones anyway. I don;'t know how easy it would be, but you might be able to modify the wiring to use a full-height drive with the 26 pin connector. The 9114A scheamtics (same place as above) include schematics of 2 versions of that drive. > > On the motherboard side, it has a Zilog Z0765A FDC, and I've successfully > created disks on my PC (using HP's LIFUTIL) that worked on the drive. This > makes me think that the drive is a standard 300rpm. Any thoughts? No. The 600rpm drives use twice the data rate of the 300rpm ones, so the magnetic parttern on the disk is unchanged. There is no problem at all in reading disks from a 600rpm drive on a PC (assuming the date encoding is compatble, etc), I routinely read dioks from my 9114s on a PC. Can you not measure the read clock freqeuncy at the disk controller chip to determine what data rate it's expecting amd then work back from that to figure out the drive spindle spee -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 9 17:06:53 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 15:06:53 -0700 Subject: HP 1650b boot floppy; was Re: Anyone know the rotation speed... Message-ID: <466B247D.50103@bitsavers.org> > I just wanted to create a backup & duplicate of the disk. imagedisk works From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jun 9 17:28:28 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:28:28 -0500 Subject: wang 2200vp available, Vicksburg, MS, USA Message-ID: <466B298C.3030904@pacbell.net> I was contacted a month or so ago by a gentleman with a wang 2200vp system that he would like to find a home for. I don't need another one, and I offered to "advertise" it here, but then it slipped my mind (it can be quite slippery sometimes). Many years ago in my business I had 2200VP set up complete with a Model 2260 disk drive. I think I had a Wang PC or two also. Since then, the components & the manuals (also floppies & disk cartridges) have been in storage in my attic (well, not the disk drive - whew! -- it is in a corner of my enclosed garage). Do you know anyone that might want any of this? I see nothing on ebay. I'm about ready to haul it all to the dump. Sigh. In a later exchange he said: I'm at Vicksburg, MS, right close to the Mississippi river. Yes, please spread the word that I want to move this Wang system out of my attic (and make room for other junk! ), The $12,000 5 meg (each platter?) disk drive I really think will have to go to the dump. I did not see any mention of it on the web and I doubt that anyone could use it. Have you ever seen the platters offered on ebay? I was thinking of trying that. I'm sure he doesn't want his email address in the archives, so please email me and I'll forward on his email address to you. You can learn more about the wang 2200 from my web site: http://www.wang2200.org From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 9 18:11:50 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:11:50 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 09 Jun 2007 10:26:35 +0100. <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FC9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FC9 at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, "Rod Smallwood" writes: > VT 420 x1 (-)=20 > LA75 x1 x1 (-) =20 > HP 700 Terminal > HP 2392A Terminal x1 Too bad you're on the wrong side of the pond... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jun 9 18:19:37 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:19:37 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks Message-ID: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> Hi, I just received a DDC (Digital Development Corporation) 6200X series fixed head disk. It includes all of the cables, power supplies and controller for a PDP-11. Before I hook it up to one of my 11's, does anyone have any docs on this beast? Here are the specs as I know them: Series: 6200X Speed: 3450rpm bits per track: 72000 access time: 8.7ms tracks: 64 unformatted capacity (MB): 0.58 Supposedly there was no scheduled preventive maintenance, however DDC made other fixed head drives that were helium filled and they needed periodic service. So, my question is do I need to do anything (like purge and refill) before I use it? Does anyone have any additional info? I did get some manuals with it, but they're mostly focused on the controller for the PDP-11. TIA. -- TTFN - Guy From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 9 18:36:22 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:36:22 -0700 Subject: LM309K regulator Message-ID: <466B3979.DA504AA1@cs.ubc.ca> While conversing with another list member about some old components, I was reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a nasty failure mode of the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of the) first integrated 5V regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - it's a vague second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or elaborate on this? I've never personally run across problems with them.. A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like short-circuit protection and thermal-overload protection.. ..another device perhaps? From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 9 13:43:08 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 19:43:08 +0100 Subject: Databooks: keep or toss? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FCA@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I remember about 1971 collecting a PDP-8 I was going to use to use for control/data capture on a experiment at Harwell. It struck me then why supply such cheap manuals with a multi thousand dollar well built computer system? It was obvious that the books would fall apart if used. I had our repographics people take the books apart, blow them up to A4 and loose leaf bind them. They used research report archive paper (rot proof, fire resistant and good for 100+ years) and as a back up microfiched them as well. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ensor Sent: 08 June 2007 23:32 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Databooks: keep or toss? Hi, >>...paper to self-destruct. Think yellowing, crumbling >>paperbacks... > > Umm ... DEC's paperbacks. Actually, my 1979 onwards PDP-11 handbooks are fine. They're printed paper which looks slightly glossy and haven't yet started deteriorating (noticably anyway). OTOH, my early/mid 70's PDP-11 and PDP-8 books are smouldering nicely.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. From rbazzano at alice.it Sat Jun 9 17:59:28 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:59:28 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive Message-ID: <007e01c7aae9$d55c0cf0$2201a8c0@ufficio> Hello. I have a partially defective HP 82901 drive. I found the problem on the controller card. I found a service manual on HpMuseum site, named "82901-82902_CEServiceHandbook-Partial_17pages_1982.pdf". Following it, I made all self tests and the problem is on the read circuit. I'm sure about that because the two Tandon drives work fine with another controller card. In this case, the service manual suggest to verify read oscillator frequency. Unfortunately the section VI of the manual describing the procedure is completely missing from the pdf file. Perhaps someone has this manual? I would be very gratefull if someone can help me to fix this drive. Thank you very much. Roberto From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 9 19:01:45 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 18:01:45 -0600 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay Message-ID: See item # 120128637318 I won an SGI Personal Iris 4D/20 (1988!) workstation. I was the only bidder and I picked it up for $40. The cosmetic condition is excellent. Honestly, I expected someone to come in and snipe me at the last possible minute, so I increased my bid twice. The hard drive will be wipe, so I nee to get an OS package for this, which is probably as hard as finding the hardware. In several years of watching ebay for SGI gear, this is the first time I've seen a Personal Iris offered up, although I admit that I haven't had a specific search for it, so one or two may have slipped through the cracks. Are the SGI collectors just out enjoying the nice weather? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From steve at radiorobots.com Sat Jun 9 19:23:18 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:23:18 -0400 Subject: LM309K regulator In-Reply-To: <466B3979.DA504AA1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <466B3979.DA504AA1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <466B4476.6000701@radiorobots.com> A number of three terminal regulators exhibit problems if capacitances they see on their input and/or output are wrong. Brent Hilpert wrote: >While conversing with another list member about some old components, I was >reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a nasty failure mode of >the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of the) first integrated 5V >regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. > >I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - it's a vague >second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or elaborate on this? >I've never personally run across problems with them.. >A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like short-circuit >protection and thermal-overload protection.. ..another device perhaps? > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 21:13:52 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 19:13:52 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706091913h6e8c09a4o3479ead5502e2e1e@mail.gmail.com> How does that work with a fixed head disk, one head per track? So 64 heads in this case? 0.58 MB capacity, what vintage is that? How big is the platter(s)? What would be filled with helium? The volume in which the platter(s) rotate? Why helium? Is it interesting enough to look at to take pictures and post them? From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jun 9 21:40:55 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 19:40:55 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90706091913h6e8c09a4o3479ead5502e2e1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> <1e1fc3e90706091913h6e8c09a4o3479ead5502e2e1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> Glen Slick wrote: > How does that work with a fixed head disk, one head per track? So 64 > heads in this case? Yes, there's another version that has 128 heads. Mine's the small one which is only 64 heads. > > 0.58 MB capacity, what vintage is that? Date stamp on the controller and the HDA is 1975. > How big is the platter(s)? I'd guess 12-14". > What would be filled with helium? The volume in which the platter(s) > rotate? Why helium? The HDA is filled with helium. Helium being lower density than normal air, allows the heads (and the coaxial motor) to run cooler (less "air" resistance). > > Is it interesting enough to look at to take pictures and post them? > Once I get it all mounted, sure. -- TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 9 22:50:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 21:50:17 -0600 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com is online! Message-ID: It needs a lot more data, but I'd like all listers to feel free to contribute.... Lots of data yet to be entered by me, but the primary stuff is all wikis so you can all add stuff. If there's a feature you'd like to see, let me know. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 9 22:51:52 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 21:51:52 -0600 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com URL Message-ID: oops, that's what I get for drinking beer on a Saturday night... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 9 23:05:20 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:05:20 -0400 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com URL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706100005.21019.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 09 June 2007 23:51, Richard wrote: > oops, that's what I get for drinking beer on a Saturday night... > > It's also in the message subject... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From onymouse at garlic.com Sat Jun 9 23:43:18 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 21:43:18 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> <1e1fc3e90706091913h6e8c09a4o3479ead5502e2e1e@mail.gmail.com> <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > Glen Slick wrote: >> What would be filled with helium? The volume in which the platter(s) >> rotate? Why helium? > The HDA is filled with helium. Helium being lower density than normal > air, allows the heads (and the coaxial motor) to run cooler (less "air" > resistance). >> >> Helium is a very good thermal conductor but I would suspect that it is used because it is cleaner and dryer than air and nitrogen and truly inert and won't chemically react with the medium. The helium was likely under pressure to reduce the chance of air getting in. Since it can leak out much faster than nitrogen and air, thanks to the physics of helium, the seals and sealing surfaces must be in excellent condition. But no matter how good the seal, helium still leaks out so it needs to be replenished from time to time. If you know anyone with a helium leak detector with a helium probe, maybe you can ask them to find out how much helium leaks out and whether there are any significant leaks. Soapy water or "snoop" will only show relatively massive leaks. A helium leak detector can tell you whether you have to refill the unit every week or every few months and snoop cannot tell you that. Don't put the unit under vacuum though. Might have to pay attention to lubricants, too. There's not many lubricants that don't have volatiles _and_ can tolerate an environment without air. They're out there but like green glue, they're neither expensive nor very obvious. IIRC, helium was used for drum memories, too. Of course, so was the single-head-per-track tech. In the old days, a computer tech was at least as much a mechanic as an electronic tech. Nowadays, it's mostly software. The "mechanical" part is just screws and pulling PC boards. == jd All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 10 00:15:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:15:30 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> Message-ID: <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2007 at 21:43, jd wrote: >> Helium is a very good thermal conductor but I would suspect that it is used > because it is cleaner and dryer than air and nitrogen and truly inert and won't > chemically react with the medium. The helium was likely under pressure to reduce > the chance of air getting in. Since it can leak out much faster than nitrogen > and air, thanks to the physics of helium, the seals and sealing surfaces must be > in excellent condition. But no matter how good the seal, helium still leaks out > so it needs to be replenished from time to time. So why wasn't another noble gas used, such as argon? I don't doubt that helium might have been used, but I don't understand why. Cheers, Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jun 10 00:20:20 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:20:20 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> <1e1fc3e90706091913h6e8c09a4o3479ead5502e2e1e@mail.gmail.com> <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> Message-ID: <466B8A14.9070306@shiresoft.com> John Wilson responded with some excerpts from a related set of manuals. It actually uses nitrogen and the bits he gave me contained the purging and refill instructions. So at some point, I'll replace what ever is in the disk now with "new" nitrogen and give it a try. jd wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> Glen Slick wrote: >> >>> What would be filled with helium? The volume in which the platter(s) >>> rotate? Why helium? >>> >> The HDA is filled with helium. Helium being lower density than normal >> air, allows the heads (and the coaxial motor) to run cooler (less "air" >> resistance). >> >>> > Helium is a very good thermal conductor but I would suspect that it is used > because it is cleaner and dryer than air and nitrogen and truly inert and won't > chemically react with the medium. The helium was likely under pressure to reduce > the chance of air getting in. Since it can leak out much faster than nitrogen > and air, thanks to the physics of helium, the seals and sealing surfaces must be > in excellent condition. But no matter how good the seal, helium still leaks out > so it needs to be replenished from time to time. > > If you know anyone with a helium leak detector with a helium probe, maybe you > can ask them to find out how much helium leaks out and whether there are any > significant leaks. Soapy water or "snoop" will only show relatively massive > leaks. A helium leak detector can tell you whether you have to refill the unit > every week or every few months and snoop cannot tell you that. Don't put the > unit under vacuum though. > > Might have to pay attention to lubricants, too. There's not many lubricants that > don't have volatiles _and_ can tolerate an environment without air. They're out > there but like green glue, they're neither expensive nor very obvious. > > IIRC, helium was used for drum memories, too. Of course, so was the > single-head-per-track tech. > > In the old days, a computer tech was at least as much a mechanic as an > electronic tech. Nowadays, it's mostly software. The "mechanical" part is just > screws and pulling PC boards. > > == > jd > All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy. > > > -- TTFN - Guy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 00:23:15 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:23:15 -0700 Subject: LM309K regulator In-Reply-To: <466B3979.DA504AA1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: >From: Brent Hilpert > >While conversing with another list member about some old components, I was >reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a nasty failure mode of >the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of the) first integrated 5V >regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. > >I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - it's a vague >second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or elaborate on this? >I've never personally run across problems with them.. >A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like short-circuit >protection and thermal-overload protection.. ..another device perhaps? Hi Many regulators could not handle significant back voltage. The problem would often occur if the input had a small capacitor relative to the output and there was a bleader or other load on the input source. This was common problem with many CMOS circuits. Another problem was input over voltage. Often if ther was a transformer without an input filter capacitor, when the power was turned off, the inductive spike would wipe out the regulator. It seems like negative rail regulators were most suseptible to this. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From pludikar at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 9 23:06:19 2007 From: pludikar at sympatico.ca (Peter) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:06:19 -0400 Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <200706081711.l58HAjoL019096@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002601c7ab14$b3ffcd50$6500a8c0@Mum> > Go to http://www.hpmuseum.net/ and follow the links for disks and then > the 9114. On the 'product documentation' page you'll find 'my' schematics > for the 9114V. That includes the drive itself. Tony, many thanks - the schematics/circuit diagrams appear to be 100% relevant to my board. I can now start trying to figure out what I zapped. It looks like the -50 and -30 suffixes are little more than cosmetic changes or switch configurations. My FDD is also a half height. I was thinking about the Z0765A FDC and how to make it compatible with a 300rpm FDD. It seems that all that needs to be done (in theory) is to reduce all the FDC clocks by half - the 8MHz clock to 4MHz and the Write Clock to 500KHz. (NEC indicates this in their uPD 765A datasheet). Clearly not as simple to execute as it sounds, but not beyond the realms of possibility. Thanks to everyone else who responded. Peter From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 10 01:15:21 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 02:15:21 -0400 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0263B22C-79BE-47F3-A389-C31D203096D1@neurotica.com> On Jun 9, 2007, at 8:01 PM, Richard wrote: > See item # 120128637318 > > I won an SGI Personal Iris 4D/20 (1988!) workstation. I was the only > bidder and I picked it up for $40. The cosmetic condition is > excellent. > > Honestly, I expected someone to come in and snipe me at the last > possible minute, so I increased my bid twice. > > The hard drive will be wipe, so I nee to get an OS package for this, > which is probably as hard as finding the hardware. In several years > of watching ebay for SGI gear, this is the first time I've seen a > Personal Iris offered up, although I admit that I haven't had a > specific search for it, so one or two may have slipped through the > cracks. > > Are the SGI collectors just out enjoying the nice weather? Wow, that's a nice score! I spent a very long time developing software on a 4D/25G, a later but very similar model, when it was current. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jun 10 01:45:15 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 02:45:15 -0400 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay References: Message-ID: <00d701c7ab2a$e779e510$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay > See item # 120128637318 > > I won an SGI Personal Iris 4D/20 (1988!) workstation. I was the only > bidder and I picked it up for $40. The cosmetic condition is > excellent. Local find? Those would be a bit heavy on shipping. Is SGI more collectable now then a few years ago? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 10 02:03:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:03:16 -0700 Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <002601c7ab14$b3ffcd50$6500a8c0@Mum> References: <200706081711.l58HAjoL019096@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <002601c7ab14$b3ffcd50$6500a8c0@Mum> Message-ID: <466B3FC4.17838.31CF479A@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2007 at 0:06, Peter wrote: > I was thinking about the Z0765A FDC and how to make it compatible with a > 300rpm FDD. It seems that all that needs to be done (in theory) is to > reduce all the FDC clocks by half - the 8MHz clock to 4MHz and the Write > Clock to 500KHz. (NEC indicates this in their uPD 765A datasheet). Clearly > not as simple to execute as it sounds, but not beyond the realms of > possibility. Actually, you don't need to change CLK (on pin 19), just WCLK on pin 21--on the 765, CLK is pretty much independent of the data rate. So you can leave it at 8 MHz. I haven't looked at the schematic, but you may also need to either synthesize a "drive ready" signal or use a 720K drive that has the capability of providing one, say, a Teac FD235F. Hope this helps. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 10 02:49:42 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:49:42 -0600 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Jun 2007 02:45:15 -0400. <00d701c7ab2a$e779e510$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: In article <00d701c7ab2a$e779e510$0b01a8c0 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > Local find? Those would be a bit heavy on shipping. I've had a deskside Onyx sent to me from Reading, PA and San Diego, CA. I drove out to St. Louis, MO (Hi Jay!) and rented a truck to drive back: Crimson deskside, Onyx XL, Challenge XL, Onyx 2 4-rack Reality Monster. Having this puppy shipped to me, even if by freight, will be nothing compared to those. > Is SGI more collectable > now then a few years ago? Personal Iris, Onyx, Crimson are hard to find, particularly in good cosmetic condition. The skins are fragile on the Onyx/Crimson/Challenge. The PI is much harder to find, IMO. I've been looking for several years and this was the first one on ebay. There was one offered by a collector in Canada, but the customs and border crossing aspect of the shipping (plus he wanted to sell everything in one big lot at a time when I was short on cash) were prohibitive for me. Eventually someone picked it up in person. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Jun 10 03:40:05 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:40:05 +0200 Subject: LM309K regulator References: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9D8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens dwight elvey >Verzonden: zo 10-06-2007 07:23 >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Onderwerp: RE: LM309K regulator > >>From: Brent Hilpert >> >>While conversing with another list member about some old components, I >>was reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a nasty failure mode of >>the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of the) first integrated 5V >>regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. >> >>I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - it's a vague >>second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or elaborate on this? >>I've never personally run across problems with them.. >>A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like short-circuit >>protection and thermal-overload protection.. ..another device perhaps? > > >Hi >Many regulators could not handle significant back voltage. The problem >would often occur if the input had a small capacitor relative to the >output and there was a bleader or other load on the input source. >This was common problem with many CMOS circuits. >Another problem was input over voltage. Often if ther was a transformer >without an input filter capacitor, when the power was turned off, the >inductive spike would wipe out the regulator. It seems like negative >rail regulators were most suseptible to this. >Dwight I would like to hear more about this! I am about to build myself a small power supply for -16V. using an LM337T. I know that if the output capacitor is larger than the input filter cap you better put a diode connected between the output and input pin, and that for HF you should put small caps (say 10 to 100 nF) with short leads from input to Gnd and output to Gnd. Never heard about that switch-off spike from the transformer. Since that -16V. is the power supply for my RACAL RA.366 panoramic adapter I'd hate to see that unit get damaged ... would a VDR across the secundary of the transformer help? thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From davis at saw.net Sun Jun 10 03:49:52 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:49:52 -0700 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <466BBB30.2020504@saw.net> Richard A. Cini wrote: Not to say that this is a bit silly, But isn't this project about developing a "CELL" processor/simulator? Specifically, a ribosome simulation? That gives you proteins. Then you need a simulator for the output of that production, and I would assume, an almost infinite progression of simulations for all the processes. It sounds like fun, But looking at the wikipedia entry just now, You would need a PhD in cellular biochem, genetics, computer science and a EE to even consider building something that could even express a couple proteins. I might be wrong. This is either crackpot or Nobel prize territory. Didn't mean to disparage anyone, but... Jim Davis. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 10 08:02:12 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:02:12 -0400 Subject: Free in DC area Message-ID: <20070610130212.6F086BA4433@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Free, you pick up in the MD suburbs (near beltway) or I can meet you in downtown DC most weekdays: * Several hundred new anti-static bags * Digital PR/S01 portable paper tape reader * Converter box for above paper tape reader that makes it to RS-232 so you can plug in a PC Drop me an email at "shoppa at trailing-edge.com" if you're interested. Tim. From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jun 10 08:43:41 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:43:41 -0400 Subject: Local (NY) PDP guy needed In-Reply-To: <466BBB30.2020504@saw.net> Message-ID: This is the same thing that came across my mind when I was sitting on the phone with him. He seem to has some of the discipline and medical training and appears self-taught in other areas. If something happens with this ultimately, we can say, "I remember him when..." On 6/10/07 4:49 AM, "davis" wrote: > Richard A. Cini wrote: > > Not to say that this is a bit silly, But isn't this project about > developing a "CELL" processor/simulator? > Specifically, a ribosome simulation? That gives you proteins. Then you > need a simulator for the output > of that production, and I would assume, an almost infinite progression > of simulations for all the processes. > > It sounds like fun, But looking at the wikipedia entry just now, You > would need a PhD in cellular biochem, > genetics, computer science and a EE to even consider building something > that could even express a couple proteins. > I might be wrong. This is either crackpot or Nobel prize territory. > Didn't mean to disparage anyone, but... > > Jim Davis. > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jun 10 10:13:41 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:13:41 -0700 Subject: PI 4D/20 (WAS: Re: you *can* get a good deal on ebay) Message-ID: Nice beast, a bit slow but decent, especially with the Super Turbo option. In talks with other hobbyists (and experience with my 4D/25 Super Turbo), it seems like the Turbo option is a bit delicate, so you might need to remove the turbo card and plug the RE1/RE2 into the slot (if it is a 1988 model, then Turbo wasn't offered and won't be an issue). The symptoms are graphics lockups. I haven't had time to look at my card and se what's up. It will run "IRIX" 4D1-3.2 through IRIX 5.3 just fine, note that to install from a CD-ROM you need to have a SGI-firmware CD-ROM (there is a hack in the firmware that has the drive identify itself to the SGI PROM as a fixed SCSI disk long enough to trick the PROM into booting from it), and you'll need to ignore the "install system software" menu option and instead go into the PROM monitor, run "boot -f dksc(0,, 8)sash.IP6" and then at the sash prompt type "install". IRIX 4.0 and above deal with CD-ROMs just fine, can't remember about 4D1-3.x. For 5.3 you will want 32MB or more, look on the old "SGI FAQ" for information on the endearing features of the PI 4D/2x memory controller. From onymouse at garlic.com Sun Jun 10 10:29:49 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:29:49 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Jun 2007 at 21:43, jd wrote: > >>> Helium is a very good thermal conductor but I would suspect that > it is used >> because it is cleaner and dryer than air and nitrogen and truly inert and won't >> chemically react with the medium. The helium was likely under pressure to reduce >> the chance of air getting in. Since it can leak out much faster than nitrogen >> and air, thanks to the physics of helium, the seals and sealing surfaces must be >> in excellent condition. But no matter how good the seal, helium still leaks out >> so it needs to be replenished from time to time. > > So why wasn't another noble gas used, such as argon? I don't doubt > that helium might have been used, but I don't understand why. > As Guy Sotomayor mentioned in another post, nitrogen was used in the disk. IIRC, helium costs less than argon. There's something else about argon that makes it undesireable as an inert gas except for welding. What that is I do not know. Nitrogen costs even less than helium--depending on the purity. I wondered why helium would be used instead of nitrogen. Just assumed that perhaps there would be too much of a reaction with the media or something else to be tolerable. I do recall some computer equipment that had helium in the enclosure. At least that's what the labels said. == Real computer scientists despise the idea of actual hardware. Hardware has limitations, software doesn't. It's a real shame that Turing machines are so poor at I/O. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 11:33:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:33:46 -0700 Subject: LM309K regulator In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9D8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: >From: "Gooijen, Henk" > > >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens dwight elvey > >Verzonden: zo 10-06-2007 07:23 > >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Onderwerp: RE: LM309K regulator > > > >>From: Brent Hilpert > >> > >>While conversing with another list member about some old components, I > >>was reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a nasty failure mode of > >>the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of the) first integrated >5V > >>regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. > >> > >>I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - it's a vague > >>second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or elaborate on this? > >>I've never personally run across problems with them.. > >>A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like short-circuit > >>protection and thermal-overload protection.. ..another device perhaps? > > > > > >Hi > >Many regulators could not handle significant back voltage. The problem > >would often occur if the input had a small capacitor relative to the > >output and there was a bleader or other load on the input source. > >This was common problem with many CMOS circuits. > >Another problem was input over voltage. Often if ther was a transformer > >without an input filter capacitor, when the power was turned off, the > >inductive spike would wipe out the regulator. It seems like negative > >rail regulators were most suseptible to this. > >Dwight > > >I would like to hear more about this! I am about to build myself a small >power supply for -16V. using an LM337T. I know that if the output capacitor >is larger than the input filter cap you better put a diode connected >between >the output and input pin, and that for HF you should put small caps (say >10 to 100 nF) with short leads from input to Gnd and output to Gnd. >Never heard about that switch-off spike from the transformer. >Since that -16V. is the power supply for my RACAL RA.366 panoramic adapter >I'd hate to see that unit get damaged ... would a VDR across the secundary >of the transformer help? > > thanks, >- Henk, PA8PDP > Hi Henk Usually the filter cap on the rectifier is enough to safely absorb the energy of the transformer. Still, it is something that you need to check and actually verify. If the range of line voltages that the unit is to run on put the input voltage near the maximum of the rating, it needs to be checked. Where I personally saw this effect was in a unit that had 5 of the modular power supplies ( linear w/ transformers ) all wired in parallel. When the switch was turn on and off, the stored energy in the cores needs to go sumplace, just like the coil in an ignition system. What makes it worse is something like a zero cross switch which would be worse as that is when the maximum energy is in the cores magnetic field. We were not able to get the manufacture of the modular power supplies to solve the problem fast enough so we shipped the machine but put those varistors on the inputs to clamp the voltage swing. We learned later that sufficient sized input caps would also work. For these, one had to make sure that it wasn't too small as this would actually enhance the spike, as the capacitor does in an ignition system does, buy reducing the arcing of the switch contacts. The diode, as you mentions, was the typical way to solve the back voltage problem. It is a good idea in most any case. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don?t miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 11:47:07 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:47:07 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 9 Jun 2007 at 21:43, jd wrote: > > >> Helium is a very good thermal conductor but I would suspect that >it is used > > because it is cleaner and dryer than air and nitrogen and truly inert >and won't > > chemically react with the medium. The helium was likely under pressure >to reduce > > the chance of air getting in. Since it can leak out much faster than >nitrogen > > and air, thanks to the physics of helium, the seals and sealing surfaces >must be > > in excellent condition. But no matter how good the seal, helium still >leaks out > > so it needs to be replenished from time to time. > >So why wasn't another noble gas used, such as argon? I don't doubt >that helium might have been used, but I don't understand why. > > Hi Chuck The only two things I can think of where mentioned by others. One was thermal conductivity and the other was friction. Helium has almost zero friction. Still, the stuff leaks out of things so fast. Even solid surfaces. I find it funny that it is cheaper than argon. There is a lot of argon but I'd guess the extraction from natural gas, where it is undesired for burning, makes helium cheaper than argon that has to be intentionally removed from air. Two percent of air is argon as I recall. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jun 10 12:22:51 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:22:51 -0700 Subject: LM309K regulator References: Message-ID: <466C336B.A9B9E0C9@cs.ubc.ca> Steve Stutman wrote: > A number of three terminal regulators exhibit problems if capacitances > they see on their input and/or output are wrong. dwight elvey wrote: > Many regulators could not handle significant back voltage. The problem > would often occur if the input had a small capacitor relative to the > output and there was a bleader or other load on the input source. > This was common problem with many CMOS circuits. > Another problem was input over voltage. Often if ther was a transformer > without an input filter capacitor, when the power was turned off, the > inductive spike would wipe out the regulator. It seems like negative > rail regulators were most suseptible to this. Yes, I was aware of these issues, they're covered in the databooks for the later regulators in the fine print. Guessing, but perhaps before these issues were commonly realised or their solutions incorporated, problems showed up more frequently, and they would show up in earlier systems which were more likely to be using the 309, and so the 309 unfairly got a bad rap. BTW: The earliest reference I found for the 309 was Feb 1971 (Nat Semi Linear Application Note). Mentioned as one of the motivations for it's development or uses is distributed/on-card regulation, the technique the Altair/S100 bus would later take up with. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 10 12:40:52 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:40:52 -0700 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:01 PM -0600 6/9/07, Richard wrote: >I won an SGI Personal Iris 4D/20 (1988!) workstation. I was the only >bidder and I picked it up for $40. The cosmetic condition is >excellent. The best deal I've *EVER* gotten from eBay was on my SGI O2 w/270Mhz R12k, I got it for $250 BIN when they were still going for close to $1k on eBay. >Are the SGI collectors just out enjoying the nice weather? With IRIX a dead end, I don't know how much people are going after them any more. My pair of O2's (I also have one with the slowest O2 CPU) are the most impressive workstations I've ever seen, and I'd love to have an Octane 2, Fuel, or Tezro, but unless I get them locally for basically nothing I don't see me spending the money to get one. I'm much more likely to spend money on better Sun hardware (right now I have a dual 750Mhz Sunblade 1000), as I don't collect Unix machines, I want usable machines. A Unix machine with an OS that is no longer actively supported isn't that usable to me. BTW, I actually prefer my dual 450Mhz Ultra 60 to the Sunblade 1000, as it generates a whole lot less heat! So speed isn't the only concern. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 10 14:16:55 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:16:55 -0400 Subject: Free in DC area In-Reply-To: <20070610130212.6F086BA4433@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20070610130212.6F086BA4433@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20070610191655.722BCBA4443@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> The stuff has been claimed already. Thanks for the interest! Tim. From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jun 10 14:28:43 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:28:43 -0400 Subject: SST Manual/ Windows 286 needed Message-ID: All: I?m looking for a copy of the printed manual for Murray Sargent?s Scroll Screen Tracer (SST) debugger program. If someone has it can you scan it for me? I?m also looking for a copy of Windows/286 2.1 disks ? I can?t find mine in my box (crate) of disks. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 10 15:22:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:22:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know the rotation speed of this FDD? In-Reply-To: <002601c7ab14$b3ffcd50$6500a8c0@Mum> from "Peter" at Jun 10, 7 00:06:19 am Message-ID: > > Tony, many thanks - the schematics/circuit diagrams appear to be 100% > relevant to my board. I can now start trying to figure out what I zapped. > It looks like the -50 and -30 suffixes are little more than cosmetic changes > or switch configurations. My FDD is also a half height. I think the motor speed is referenced to the master clock on that PCB -- there's a seramic resonator or something IIRC. In which case, if the resonator is the same frequency, the chips the same types, and the motor still has 6 coils, it'll be a 600 rpm unit. I don't know how common 9114Bs are, but that might be a source of a replacement drive. Ditto 9153s, but IIRC at least one version of those (9153C) has a 1.44M 300rpm drive, which is exactly what you don't want! > > I was thinking about the Z0765A FDC and how to make it compatible with a > 300rpm FDD. It seems that all that needs to be done (in theory) is to > reduce all the FDC clocks by half - the 8MHz clock to 4MHz and the Write > Clock to 500KHz. (NEC indicates this in their uPD 765A datasheet). Clearly > not as simple to execute as it sounds, but not beyond the realms of > possibility. You will also have to fiddle with the VCO (and maybe any loop filters) in the data separator. It should be possible, unless there;s some evil software that complains if an index pulse takes too long to appear (I could believe anything from HP self-tests!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 10 15:15:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:15:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <007e01c7aae9$d55c0cf0$2201a8c0@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 10, 7 00:59:28 am Message-ID: > > Hello. > I have a partially defective HP 82901 drive. I don't know this drive by model number, but IIRC it's a daul 5.25" drive with an HPIB interface. I have an HP drive that fits that description, unfortunately I can't get to it quickly, so I can't verify the model number, but I do remember some things about it. > I found the problem on the controller card. > I found a service manual on HpMuseum site, named > "82901-82902_CEServiceHandbook-Partial_17pages_1982.pdf". Following it, I > made all self tests and the problem is on the read circuit. I'm sure about > that because the two Tandon drives work fine with another controller card. > In this case, the service manual suggest to verify read oscillator > frequency. Unfortunately the section VI of the manual describing the > procedure is completely missing from the pdf file. I would strongly recoemdn that you don't _adjust_ anything at this point. It's fine to check the freqeucny, but don't tweak anything until you are sure the fault is just misadjustment. Anyway, from what I remeber, the controller card is based round a 6802 processor [1]. The actual disk contorller chip, anohter 40 pin device, is made by Fujitsu, and has the same pinout as the 1793 _apart from being +5V supply only_. [1] If you've got chips marked with the HP house codes (1820-xxxx numbers, maybe soem 1818-xxxx ones), let me know what they are and I can see if I can find the standard equivalents. That mioght be enough to get you started. Grab a 1793 data sheet and check the clocks at the pins of the disk controller. There is probably a proper procedure for adjusting the free-running requency of the data separate VCO, but at this point, what you want to do is see (a) is there a read clock and (b) is it possibly a sane frequency. I can't remember much abotu the PSU in this unit. IIRC there is a seaprate PSU PCB (and presumably you can check the outputs of that quite easily). It's quite possible the VCO circuit needs a -ve supply line. This might come from the main PSU, but on at least one HP controller, it was producaed by a charge pump circuit clocked from a divided-down version of a master clock. That might be worth looking for and checking. If you're really stuck, I'll excavate my unit, pull the covers, and see what I can quickly deduce. -tony From jam at magic.com Sun Jun 10 16:19:12 2007 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks Message-ID: <200706102119.OAA06137@mist.magic.com> > I do recall some computer equipment that had helium in the enclosure. At least > that's what the labels said. I have a DDC 7301 drive (same manufacturer as Guy's, but different model), and it is definitely filled with helium. Well, it was filled with helium 30 years ago ... The DDC maintenance manual says it requires oil-free 99.995% pure helium. The preventive maintenance procedure indicates that the helium tank is good for about 6 months (dropping from 2200psi to 300psi). James Markevitch From onymouse at garlic.com Sun Jun 10 15:58:46 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:58:46 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> Message-ID: <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> jd wrote: [snip] > > IIRC, helium costs less than argon. There's something else about argon that > makes it undesireable as an inert gas except for welding. What that is I do not > know. > I hear now that argon now costs less. Have yet to see a price list. (Hello? Air Products?) Not too long ago a 5ft cylinder of 99.995% helium @ 3600psi costs $75.00 plus whatever deposit and demurrage, and the same cylinder of 99.95% argon @ around 1200psi cost around $100.00. There's much more helium in the cylinder than argon. I'm sure nitrogen was more expensive. I remember thinking that it was odd that common nitrogen was so much more expensive than helium. Sure wish I could find the real price lists. They're somewhere down in the Jurassic stratum of this "library" of mine. == jd Confidence is the feeling you have before you understand the situation. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 10 16:59:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:59:33 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com>, <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> Message-ID: <466C11D5.29437.3503DDFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2007 at 13:58, jd wrote: > Not too long ago a 5ft cylinder of 99.995% helium @ 3600psi costs $75.00 plus > whatever deposit and demurrage, and the same cylinder of 99.95% argon @ around > 1200psi cost around $100.00. There's much more helium in the cylinder than argon. > > I'm sure nitrogen was more expensive. I remember thinking that it was odd that > common nitrogen was so much more expensive than helium. My thought was that helium would diffuse out through the tiniest opening or porous seal quite rapidly. On the other hand, argon doesn't even come close to helium's thermal conductivitiy. Cheers, Chuck From steerex at mindspring.com Sun Jun 10 18:36:17 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:36:17 -0400 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive Message-ID: <01C7AB96.9FA47DB0@MAGGIE> > Hello. > I have a partially defective HP 82901 drive. I don't know this drive by model number, but IIRC it's a daul 5.25" drive with an HPIB interface. I have an HP drive that fits that description, unfortunately I can't get to it quickly, so I can't verify the model number, but I do remember some things about it. Can you post a picture of the controller card somewhere? I may have a spare one laying around here (somewhere). SteveRob From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun Jun 10 21:36:57 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:36:57 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Updates to my PDP-11 web site Message-ID: <18142769.1181529417237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Since my collection has changed in the past couple of years (acquired a good many new items, traded/sold some other items), I decided to update my "PDP-11 Collection" page. I've added lots of new pictures. Take a look if you like "DEC Porn", as Jay calls it. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 10 21:46:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:46:13 -0600 Subject: Updates to my PDP-11 web site In-Reply-To: <18142769.1181529417237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18142769.1181529417237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <466CB775.9030904@jetnet.ab.ca> Ashley Carder wrote: > Since my collection has changed in the past couple of years (acquired a good many new items, traded/sold some other items), I decided to update my "PDP-11 Collection" page. I've added lots of new pictures. Take a look if you like "DEC Porn", as Jay calls it. > > Ashley > http://www.woffordwitch.com Hey I want real PORN ... How about a nice NUDE 2008 green bar calender? :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 10 22:26:28 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:26:28 -0600 Subject: Updates to my PDP-11 web site In-Reply-To: <18142769.1181529417237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18142769.1181529417237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <466CC0E4.5030706@jetnet.ab.ca> Ashley Carder wrote: > Since my collection has changed in the past couple of years (acquired a good many new items, traded/sold some other items), I decided to update my "PDP-11 Collection" page. I've added lots of new pictures. Take a look if you like "DEC Porn", as Jay calls it. Look Look Look ... Drool Drool Drool ... The Dec Computer Lab is new for me. Is that scanned in on bytesavers? A quick look around does not show it there? > Ashley > http://www.woffordwitch.com From evan at snarc.net Sun Jun 10 22:57:12 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 23:57:12 -0400 Subject: VCF East 4.0 wrap-up Message-ID: <007d01c7abdc$97d34a30$6401a8c0@evan> Hola, collectors! I just got home from VCF East 4.0 of course I?m biased, but what a great weekend! Around ? of the exhibitors came Friday night afternoon/evening to get ready. This year we expanded the venue from one room to two. But, the second room is still VERY under construction. Some of our volunteers were literally still installing sheetrock that morning. So we had to use some yellow caution tape, but it added character. :-) Friday night was bar trip #1 I drove back to my hotel safely was but very, very tired waking up early Saturday. For Chuck Peddle?s videocon Saturday morning, the weakest part of our internet connection was the wifi or so I thought! Turns out, the wifi worked great, as did Skype. Chuck spoke to us for an hour+ then he got an strong round of applause then we were about to begin audience Q&A. All was fine until that part. Until our videocon server went BSOD!! We couldn?t even get it to reboot in ?safe mode? so we emailed Chuck from my cell phone, who said he had to get going anyway, but that anyone with questions could email him. Okay then! Bil Herb, Bob, Russell, and Dave Haynie took their turns next; lots more great stories and they brought many prototypes to show us, including the famous Commodore LCD. They even hung around out exhibit hall after the panel and after some chocolate chickenhead cake. One of them, Haynie, joined us for the official VCF Dinner that night. Speaking of dinner: the bill was $555.58. If only someone hadn?t drank that last three cents of beer ! Today was just as much fun. We had how-to lectures, we learned the history of CPM, we heard all about Jeri E.?s toy-making experiences and there?s a picture of someone posing next to our museum?s chip collection. Meanwhile the collecting guru Sellam told some secrets which I?m not going to share here except for this one: when pushing an 8-foot-tall rack, be alert for unstable monitors on top. (Hopefully there won?t be a scar.) My LEAST favorite part of any VCF is tearing down at the end of the weekend. But it had to be done. To ease out of the weekend while keeping out good mood, I went to dinner with Hans and Sellam, had a few beers, and well it?s been a while since I drank three nights in a row. Anyway, the show was terrific. Peddle?s unique hour-long lecture, 20-ish exhibits, attendance in the triple figures, and we even gave a few museum tours. Heck, one guy came all the way from New Zealand. Pics and hopefully some video will be posted soon. Patrick: I now pass the baton to you! From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jun 10 02:31:45 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:31:45 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FCD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I am curently investigating shipping costs between the UK and US. As collectors we don't need next day delivery but we do need full cover insurance. Don't go away. The cost is not that bad. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 10 June 2007 00:12 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: My sale or swap list (Update) In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FC9 at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, "Rod Smallwood" writes: > VT 420 x1 (-)=20 > LA75 x1 x1 (-) =20 > HP 700 Terminal > HP 2392A Terminal x1 Too bad you're on the wrong side of the pond... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 06:18:39 2007 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 07:18:39 -0400 Subject: VCF East 4 - Wall Township, New Jersey Message-ID: What can I say! Evan and M.A.R.C.H. have put on quite the show so far -> Vintage Computer Faire - East (4). What will happen today? Yesterdays presentation by Chuck Peddle of Commodore fame was music to the ears. Computer pioneers, some heralded, some not, are the reason we all can enjoy and share our passion of classic computing. Forever computing all! Murray-- From dan at partnershipaccounting.com Sun Jun 10 08:47:02 2007 From: dan at partnershipaccounting.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:47:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Free in DC areaou pick up in the MD suburbs (near beltway) or I can meet In-Reply-To: <20070610130212.6F086BA4433@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200706101347.l5ADl2Ii003535@sun.marcal.com> > > Free, you pick up in the MD suburbs (near beltway) or I can meet > you in downtown DC most weekdays: > > * Several hundred new anti-static bags > * Digital PR/S01 portable paper tape reader > * Converter box for above paper tape reader that makes it to RS-232 so you > can plug in a PC > > Drop me an email at "shoppa at trailing-edge.com" if you're interested. > > Tim. > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Jun 11 01:22:51 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:22:51 +0100 Subject: Dec CD Drives. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FD2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Before I go to a dealer and maybe get ripped off. Has anybody in the UK got any DEC RRD4x series CD Drives. (Must work with a KZQSA) Rod From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jun 11 01:49:35 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:49:35 +0200 Subject: Dec CD Drives. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FD2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FD2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488462@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Try Swan in Crayford (IIRC). Mention that Henk from The Netherlands tipped you. It might help ... www.swancomp.co.uk I have been in their store just a few weeks ago, and I have seen several RDD42 or RDD43, not sure. They are XM....'s and have a jumper "DEC" or "PC". Cannot remember the mnanufacturer, sorry, but those XM.... were discussed here some time ago, and ago :-) - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > Sent: maandag 11 juni 2007 8:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Dec CD Drives. > > Hi > Before I go to a dealer and maybe get ripped off. Has > anybody in the UK got any DEC RRD4x series CD Drives. (Must > work with a KZQSA) > > Rod > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 11 01:58:54 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:58:54 +0100 Subject: Dec CD Drives. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FD2@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004401c7abf5$fab4d240$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Before I go to a dealer and maybe get ripped off. Has anybody in > the UK got any DEC RRD4x series CD Drives. (Must work with a KZQSA) There are two RRD46 in ebay shops right now. ?20 & ?25 inc P+P. Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 11 02:02:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 03:02:50 -0400 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> Message-ID: On Jun 10, 2007, at 11:29 AM, jd wrote: > I do recall some computer equipment that had helium in the > enclosure. At least > that's what the labels said. It makes it lighter! ;) [dave ducks] -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 02:14:53 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 03:14:53 -0400 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> Message-ID: <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 10, 2007, at 11:29 AM, jd wrote: >> I do recall some computer equipment that had helium in the enclosure. >> At least >> that's what the labels said. > > It makes it lighter! ;) [dave ducks] It makes it talk funny! Peace... Sridhar From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jun 11 02:25:41 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:25:41 +0200 Subject: LM309K regulator In-Reply-To: References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F9D8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488464@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: zondag 10 juni 2007 18:34 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: LM309K regulator > > > > > >From: "Gooijen, Henk" > > > > >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens dwight elvey > > >Verzonden: zo 10-06-2007 07:23 > > >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >Onderwerp: RE: LM309K regulator > > > > > >>From: Brent Hilpert > > >> > > >>While conversing with another list member about some old > components, > > >>I was reminded of hearing somewhere that there was a > nasty failure > > >>mode of the LM309K 5V regulator (it being the (or one of > the) first > > >>integrated > >5V > > >>regs) which might make it somewhat undesirable for current use. > > >> > > >>I don't want to declare that there is such a problem - > it's a vague > > >>second-hand rumour to me - so can anyone confirm or > elaborate on this? > > >>I've never personally run across problems with them.. > > >>A 76 Moto databook indicates it has those nice things like > > >>short-circuit protection and thermal-overload > protection.. ..another device perhaps? > > > > > > > > >Hi > > >Many regulators could not handle significant back voltage. The > > >problem would often occur if the input had a small > capacitor relative > > >to the output and there was a bleader or other load on the > input source. > > >This was common problem with many CMOS circuits. > > >Another problem was input over voltage. Often if ther was a > > >transformer without an input filter capacitor, when the power was > > >turned off, the inductive spike would wipe out the regulator. It > > >seems like negative rail regulators were most suseptible to this. > > >Dwight > > > > > >I would like to hear more about this! I am about to build myself a > >small power supply for -16V. using an LM337T. I know that if > the output > >capacitor is larger than the input filter cap you better put a diode > >connected between the output and input pin, and that for HF > you should > >put small caps (say 10 to 100 nF) with short leads from input to Gnd > >and output to Gnd. > >Never heard about that switch-off spike from the transformer. > >Since that -16V. is the power supply for my RACAL RA.366 panoramic > >adapter I'd hate to see that unit get damaged ... would a VDR across > >the secundary of the transformer help? > > > > thanks, > >- Henk, PA8PDP > > > > Hi Henk > Usually the filter cap on the rectifier is enough to safely > absorb the energy of the transformer. Still, it is something > that you need to check and actually verify. If the range of > line voltages that the unit is to run on put the input > voltage near the maximum of the rating, it needs to be checked. > Where I personally saw this effect was in a unit that had 5 > of the modular power supplies ( linear w/ transformers ) all > wired in parallel. When the switch was turn on and off, the > stored energy in the cores needs to go sumplace, just like > the coil in an ignition system. > What makes it worse is something like a zero cross switch > which would be worse as that is when the maximum energy is in > the cores magnetic field. > We were not able to get the manufacture of the modular power > supplies to solve the problem fast enough so we shipped the > machine but put those varistors on the inputs to clamp the > voltage swing. We learned later that sufficient sized input > caps would also work. For these, one had to make sure that it > wasn't too small as this would actually enhance the spike, as > the capacitor does in an ignition system does, buy reducing > the arcing of the switch contacts. > The diode, as you mentions, was the typical way to solve the > back voltage problem. It is a good idea in most any case. > Dwight > > Thanks Dwight, I will use a large input capacitor and a VDR (varistor) just to be on the safe side. But I will check with a dummy load on the PSU, as I rather not start repairs on the RA.366 ... - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jun 11 04:16:40 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 05:16:40 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Updates to my PDP-11 web site Message-ID: <31843468.1181553400936.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >woodelf wrote: >> Since my collection has changed in the past couple of years (acquired a good many new items, traded/sold some other items), I decided to update my "PDP-11 Collection" page. I've added lots of new pictures. Take a look if you like "DEC Porn", as Jay calls it. >> >> Ashley > >Hey I want real PORN ... How about a nice NUDE 2008 green bar calender? :) > That can be arranged. I have the old calendar printing program and several nudes to choose from. :-) Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jun 11 04:21:01 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 05:21:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Updates to my PDP-11 web site Message-ID: <15864580.1181553661310.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >woodelf wrote: >> Since my collection has changed in the past couple of years (acquired a good many new items, traded/sold some other items), I decided to update my "PDP-11 Collection" page. I've added lots of new pictures. Take a look if you like "DEC Porn", as Jay calls it. > >Look Look Look ... Drool Drool Drool ... >The Dec Computer Lab is new for me. Is that scanned in on bytesavers? >A quick look around does not show it there? I'm not sure if Al has it on bitsavers or not. I have a couple original handbooks for the computer lab and a copy of the teacher's guide. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Jun 11 02:28:43 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:28:43 +0100 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> , <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> Message-ID: <1181546923.4547.16.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 13:58 -0700, jd wrote: > I'm sure nitrogen was more expensive. I remember thinking that it was odd that > common nitrogen was so much more expensive than helium. OFN is quite expensive, but it is very pure and dry (hence the "Oxygen Free" part). We use it for re-inflating suspension spheres on certain cars (Rolls-Royce have gone over to a frankly awful Rover-derived air suspension system now - be prepared for a lot of very cheap Rolls-Royces that sit at a funny angle in ten years time). Gordon From pdp11 at saccade.com Mon Jun 11 05:02:58 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 03:02:58 -0700 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com URL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706111011.l5BAB7Ak022471@keith.ezwind.net> Cool, I hope it takes off. One trivia point. On the "4010" page, the third photo over (B&W, w/hood) is a 4012, not a 4010. I think the graphics specs were the same, but it could do lower-case text (4010 was upper-case only) and it might have had some extended interface options (parallel I/O?). I was an intern at Tektronix around '79-80. Have you ever run across any scraps of info about the Tek 4016, 4081 or 4027? The 4081: Full "workstation" with a 16 bit mini built into a side cabinet, with two cartridge disk packs (roughly RK-05 sized, but the ones that dropped down into a drawer. The CPU was roughly equivalent to an PDP-11/05, but was some off-brand make (DG? Perkin-Elmer?) It had a 4014-style tube driven directly by the CPU. It ran a proprietary RT11-like OS called "GOS". Reportedly the pet project of the son of one of the company founders. The 4016: Big brother of the 4014; the screen was maybe 30% larger - huge. It could easily fit four (maybe five?) columns of text. The flash from the screen erase was probably the equivalent of a chest X-ray (multiple flood guns!). The one I played with was an engineering prototype; not sure they ever left the lab. The 4027: Tek's first attempt at a color raster graphics terminal. Used an under-powered eight bit micro (8085?) to interpret a complex serial command language and draw the graphics. It was slow. Like watching paint dry slow. And big and expensive and heavy. Total market flop. It would be amazing if any of these still exist - they were scarce when I saw them back in Tek's computer graphics glory days. Cheers, jp From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jun 11 09:03:04 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:03:04 -0400 Subject: VCF East 4 - Wall Township, New Jersey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <466D5618.5070707@atarimuseum.com> It was a great show, lots of fun, I will post up photo's and a recap later today of Saturday (I wasn't able to come on Sunday) Curt Murray McCullough wrote: > What can I say! Evan and M.A.R.C.H. have put on quite the show so far -> > Vintage Computer Faire - East (4). What will happen today? > Yesterdays presentation by Chuck Peddle of Commodore fame was music to > the > ears. Computer pioneers, some heralded, some not, are the reason we > all can > enjoy and share our passion of classic computing. > > Forever computing all! > > Murray-- > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 10:06:58 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 11:06:58 -0400 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: <466A9B18.5232.2F4C1149@cclist.sydex.com> References: <466AEA9C.2050405@bitsavers.org> <466A9B18.5232.2F4C1149@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6/9/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > OTOH, the VIA SSB chip has a neat mode allowing for interface to a > floppy drive using the parallel port. Interesting - I've done that with a Dell laptop, but I didn't know there was a desktop chipset that could do it. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 10:33:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:33:06 -0700 Subject: TESTFDC usage In-Reply-To: References: <466AEA9C.2050405@bitsavers.org>, <466A9B18.5232.2F4C1149@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <466D08C2.191.38C86600@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2007 at 11:06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Interesting - I've done that with a Dell laptop, but I didn't know > there was a desktop chipset that could do it. The line has blurred between "laptop" and "desktop" chipsets--the VIA SSB has several features that are cutomarily associated with the former. Given that laptops/notebooks are gradually displacing traditional desktop machines in the consumer market, it makes sense to produce a chip that has laptop design features but can be used in a desktop system. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 10:40:50 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:40:50 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466C6606.4000503@garlic.com> Message-ID: >From: jd > >jd wrote: > >[snip] > > > > > IIRC, helium costs less than argon. There's something else about argon >that > > makes it undesireable as an inert gas except for welding. What that is I >do not > > know. > > > >I hear now that argon now costs less. Have yet to see a price list. (Hello? >Air >Products?) > >Not too long ago a 5ft cylinder of 99.995% helium @ 3600psi costs $75.00 >plus >whatever deposit and demurrage, and the same cylinder of 99.95% argon @ >around >1200psi cost around $100.00. There's much more helium in the cylinder than >argon. > >I'm sure nitrogen was more expensive. I remember thinking that it was odd >that >common nitrogen was so much more expensive than helium. > Hi As I said before, helium is a waste biproduct of natural gas. Nitrogen has to be extracted from an air mix. Nitrogen and oxygen boil at almost the same temperature to separating them is expensive. They usually burn off the oxygen first then condense the nitrogen, what remains is mostly argon. Things like CO2 freeze out early. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Play games, earn tickets, get cool prizes. Play now?it's FREE! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink1 From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jun 11 11:08:30 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:08:30 -0700 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com URL In-Reply-To: <200706111011.l5BAB7Ak022471@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200706111011.l5BAB7Ak022471@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: J. Peterson wrote: > The 4081: Full "workstation" with a 16 bit mini built into a > side cabinet, with two cartridge disk packs (roughly RK-05 > sized, but the ones that dropped down into a drawer. The CPU > was roughly equivalent to an PDP-11/05, but was some > off-brand make (DG? Perkin-Elmer?) It had a 4014-style tube > driven directly by the CPU. It ran a proprietary RT11-like OS > called "GOS". Reportedly the pet project of the son of one > of the company founders. > > The Tektronix 4081 used an OEM Interdata 7/16 CPU board set. The disk drives were, IIRC, made by Wangco (a different company than Wang Laboratories). The drives had one fixed platter, and one removable platter, like an RK05F, but definitely different. Can't remember the exact capacity, but 10MB per-platter seems to ring a bell. Most of the systems I worked with had two of these drives. They used a disk cartridge that was similar to that used in a DEC RL01/RL02. The display wasn't driven "directly" by the CPU. There was a secondary graphics processor (designed by Tektronix, using AMD bit-slice technology, IIRC) that interpreted a display list placed into a movable segment of main memory. The CRT had write-through capability, and due to the power of the display list processor, you could do pretty darned good dynamic vector graphics with the thing. The backplane of the machine was Tek-designed, but general bus structure followed the Interdata model. Our group had a hardware engineer in it, who designed a RAMDisk that sat on the bus and used DMA to transfer back and forth between main memory. The bus was rather weird, and they had a heck of a time (even with help from the 4081 group) getting the board to talk. Once it worked, some hacks were made to the OS so that swapping (it was not a VM operating system) would be done to the RAMDisk which really sped things up. The OS and applications were also modified to store temporary files out on the RAMDisk. The OS was indeed called GOS, and was very similar to RT-11. From a programmers standpoint, the Interdata CPU was much more "IBM"-360-like than "DEC PDP-11"-like. I worked for a group within Tektronix called "CAD Development", which was an internal group that designed and wrote CAD software for Tektronix engineering use. We had a couple of 4081's in the group. They had written software for the 4081 that did a respectable job of schematic capture and circuit board design (no auto-route though...that job was left to the Control Data Cyber 73 and an in-house developed routing package called "PIRATE" (no connotation -- the routing software was original), written mostly in Fortran 77 on the Cyber. The 4081 could also generate artwork tapes for a Gerber photoplotter, as well as NC tapes for circuit board drilling/routing. There was a Pascal compiler for the 4081 that I ended up writing some code in. I never cared much for Pascal, but it worked, and it was a lot more productive than writing in assembly (which I also did some of). The disk drives were mounted in the base of the cabinet, and were prone to collecting all kinds of dust and fuzz, which, if not serviced regularly, would inevitably lead to disk crashes. Fortunately, the removable disk seemed more prone the crashes than the fixed disk (makes sense), but when the fixed disk crashed, it was pretty ugly. The machine had a ROM bootloader that allowed booting from a 4051-like cartrige magtape drive, or disk. Installing the OS took a LONG time from cartridge tape. I believe that machines were also able to directly interface to some kind of 9-Track magtape drive (reel-to-reel), and may have been bootable from said device. I know of no currently existing 4081's, but who knows what may be out there. It was definitely an interesting machine. I also heard the rumor that the machine was indeed a pet project of a son of some very-high-ranking Tektronix executive. Can't substantiate it, though. The Tektronix 4081 was used to generate the vector graphics for film of the full-screen graphics used in the original "Battlestar Galactica" TV show. The 4051's with the write-through modification were not fast enough (even when coded in machine code) to generate complex enough graphics, which is why the 4081 was used, because its display list processor made much more complex refreshed raster graphics possible. The 4081 was not actually used on-set, the on-set computers were Tek 4051's. Along with the 4051's there were wall-fulls TM-500 test equipment. Rick Bensene Tektronix Employee from 6/1977 through 9/1990 The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 11 11:56:59 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:56:59 -0700 Subject: Tek 4081 Message-ID: <466D7EDB.2050700@bitsavers.org> > The machine had a ROM bootloader that allowed booting from a 4051-like > cartrige magtape drive, or disk. Installing the OS took a LONG time > from cartridge tape. > The Tektronix 4081 was used to generate the vector graphics for film of > the full-screen graphics used in the original "Battlestar Galactica" TV > show. The 4052 I got from Jim Willing has a large collection of tapes which he claimed contained BG graphics. I'll have to go through them to see if any of them say anything about th 4081 on them. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 11 12:04:14 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:04:14 -0700 Subject: Tek 4027 Message-ID: <466D808E.8060601@bitsavers.org> > I was an intern at Tektronix around '79-80. Have you ever run across > any scraps of info about the Tek 4016, 4081 or 4027? > Used an under-powered eight bit micro (8085?) to interpret > a complex serial command language and draw the graphics. I used one around 1980. Graphics were constructed using a programmable character generator, a la the Intecolor. It was similar to the 4025, which is mono, which I do have info on at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/402x I've been looking for technical/service docs for the 4027 and 411x/412x series for a while now. From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 12:06:27 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free in Philadelphia PA Message-ID: <437219.23253.qm@web55312.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I've got a 10mhz IBM AT With a display (I don't remember if mono or color...I have plenty of each) for the taking. I think it's got at least 640k in it, but may have 512k. I know it has a Hard Drive. Not sure what size. It has a 1.2gb FDD. I don't have an IBM keyboard for it. But I can dig up something compatible. It's for free... so whaddya want? You can also have an original IBM Graphics Printer to go with it. (Epson MX-80 Rebranded). I'm sure I can dig up a printer cable too. It's located in N.E. Philadelphia, PA E-Mail me off list. Al Philadelphia, PA From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 11 12:29:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 11:29:56 -0600 Subject: computergraphicsmuseum.com URL In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Jun 2007 03:02:58 -0700. <200706111011.l5BAB7Ak022471@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: jp and Rick, did you guys add this information to the wiki? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Jun 11 12:54:27 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:54:27 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C666@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> dwight elvey wrote: The only two things I can think of where mentioned by others. One was thermal conductivity and the other was friction. Helium has almost zero friction. Still, the stuff leaks out of things so fast. Even solid surfaces. I find it funny that it is cheaper than argon. There is a lot of argon but I'd guess the extraction from natural gas, where it is undesired for burning, makes helium cheaper than argon that has to be intentionally removed from air. Two percent of air is argon as I recall. Dwight ------------------- Billy writes: Helium was used in a lot of early fixed disk and drum systems. There were several reasons for helium, but the main one is it gives good flying head support. Less dense than air, it allowed the heads to fly closer. It also offered less resistance than air, hence less power. And there was something about it having less boundary layer pressure at high speed, a good thing when you are trying to increase density. It was a bitch to seal in, so most systems sealed the entire assembly with only I/O cable connectors on the outside surface. I worked on a drum system using helium in the late 1960s and we had to change the cylinder about once a month. The cylinder was 20 cubic feet. One other application I heard of was for high altitude airborne systems. The air was too thin so a positive pressure system was used with helium. Since the application was military, not much was written about it. This was also the same application that used a micro drum (roughly 3 inches long, 1 inch in diameter.). Billy From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 11 13:05:10 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:05:10 -0800 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FCD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FCD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <466D8ED6.8040307@socal.rr.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I am curently investigating shipping costs between the UK and US. > As collectors we don't need next day delivery but we do need full cover > insurance. > > Don't go away. The cost is not that bad. > > Rod I'm looking at LCL oceanic shipping, its Less than Container Load, basically a rectangular box that fits about 20 to a container, has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos is part of the base shipping cost of about $150. As usual lots of quicksand around the treasure, port fees, brokerage, customs, and its a port to port service, not terminal to terminal or door to door without adding a local ground shipper to the mix. Also its targeted to business, not private goods, so some places don't seem to want to even talk to a one time shipper. Complete and accurate paperwork seems essential. It does tend to be SLOW, as in couple weeks transit, with a month or more of sitting on a dock at either end. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 11 13:18:29 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:18:29 -0800 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <200706102119.OAA06137@mist.magic.com> References: <200706102119.OAA06137@mist.magic.com> Message-ID: <466D91F5.8010200@socal.rr.com> James A. Markevitch wrote: >> I do recall some computer equipment that had helium in the enclosure. At least >> that's what the labels said. > > I have a DDC 7301 drive (same manufacturer as Guy's, but different model), > and it is definitely filled with helium. Well, it was filled with helium > 30 years ago ... > > The DDC maintenance manual says it requires oil-free 99.995% pure helium. > The preventive maintenance procedure indicates that the helium tank is > good for about 6 months (dropping from 2200psi to 300psi). > > James Markevitch Just a thought, but while He does leak out of just about everything, unless something is leaking in I suspect its still He around 1 atm. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jun 11 13:23:30 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:23:30 -0400 Subject: VCF East 4 - Wall Township, New Jersey In-Reply-To: <466D5618.5070707@atarimuseum.com> References: <466D5618.5070707@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <466D9322.8070205@atarimuseum.com> I haven't had a chance yet to put together an HTML page with content on the recap of VCF East 4.0 but here are the photo's I had taken on Saturday: http://www.atarimuseum.com/vcf-east-4/ Curt Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > It was a great show, lots of fun, I will post up photo's and a recap > later today of Saturday (I wasn't able to come on Sunday) > > > > Curt > > > Murray McCullough wrote: >> What can I say! Evan and M.A.R.C.H. have put on quite the show so far -> >> Vintage Computer Faire - East (4). What will happen today? >> Yesterdays presentation by Chuck Peddle of Commodore fame was music >> to the >> ears. Computer pioneers, some heralded, some not, are the reason we >> all can >> enjoy and share our passion of classic computing. >> >> Forever computing all! >> >> Murray-- >> > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 13:25:06 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:25:06 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <466D8ED6.8040307@socal.rr.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FCD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <466D8ED6.8040307@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: On 6/11/07, Mike Ford wrote: > I'm looking at LCL oceanic shipping, its Less than Container Load, Interesting service... if I had an acceptable port nearby (Toledo? Cleveland?), I'd consider that for shipping things to/from Christchurch/Lyttleton New Zealand, or perhaps from Mongolia (but the Asian end might prove to be complicated to arrange). > It does tend to be SLOW, as in couple weeks transit, with a month or > more of sitting on a dock at either end. Not as slow as waiting for end-of-the-season parcel mail to get from the South Pole to the States. If I mail myself a 20lb package on, say, 1 Feb, I won't see it at home for a couple of months (it has to wait for the once-a-year cargo vessel to get to McMurdo, departing around 14 Feb, then back to California, where it is unloaded, the mail sent on to SFO, then across the U.S). The wait is even longer if you miss the postal deadline - try off-continent around Halloween, to arrive around Thanksgiving. LCL sounds dandy compared to some of the options I've dealt with. If anyone does get far enough along in the process to evaluate it, I'd like to learn more. -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 14:15:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <479218.66112.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> HA! I JUST WON A VICKI FOR 10 BUCKS! LET'S SEE YOU BEAT THAT! OH, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS?? HMM MAYBE THAT'S A CLUE AS TO HOW OFTEN THEY TURN UP! FREAKING HOSERS ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 11 14:24:14 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070611122222.B48546@shell.lmi.net> [helium] > Dave McGuire wrote: > > It makes it lighter! ;) [dave ducks] in order to get away with lighter duty casters? why not hydrogen? On Mon, 11 Jun 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > It makes it talk funny! Votrax enabled? (which already sounds like "a martian in a tin can") From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 11 14:30:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:30:46 -0400 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <20070611122222.B48546@shell.lmi.net> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com>, <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> <20070611122222.B48546@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2BFF1ABB-8048-40B9-B762-ADAD0D92B606@neurotica.com> On Jun 11, 2007, at 3:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > [helium] >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> It makes it lighter! ;) [dave ducks] > in order to get away with lighter duty casters? > why not hydrogen? Umm. *BLAM!* > On Mon, 11 Jun 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> It makes it talk funny! > Votrax enabled? (which already sounds like "a martian in a tin can") Ahh, the Votrax. I scored one at a yard sale fifteen years ago. I sure do love that box. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 14:39:23 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: busted Lisa in Australia (eBay) Message-ID: <802166.52447.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-Lisa-2-Good-physical-condition -not-operational_W0QQitemZ110137215609QQihZ001QQcategory Z80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 14:39:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:39:32 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466D91F5.8010200@socal.rr.com> References: <200706102119.OAA06137@mist.magic.com>, <466D91F5.8010200@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <466D4284.14812.39AA0530@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2007 at 10:18, Mike Ford wrote: > Just a thought, but while He does leak out of just about everything, > unless something is leaking in I suspect its still He around 1 atm. It would seem that the partial pressure of He in the atmosphere is much less than one atm, no? So, barring inward leaks, would not a lot less than one atm. of He would be left inside? Perhaps I've disremembered Dalton's Law or just hallucinated (seems to happen more and more as I grow older) that I endured high school physics? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 14:52:26 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:52:26 -0400 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <2BFF1ABB-8048-40B9-B762-ADAD0D92B606@neurotica.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> <20070611122222.B48546@shell.lmi.net> <2BFF1ABB-8048-40B9-B762-ADAD0D92B606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6/11/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > why not hydrogen? > > Umm. *BLAM!* "Have you seen my new "Hindenburg" drive? No... why is it called that? Wait until it warms up..." (or is that "wait until it goes to park its heads"?) -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jun 11 14:56:59 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:56:59 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466D4284.14812.39AA0530@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706102119.OAA06137@mist.magic.com>, <466D91F5.8010200@socal.rr.com> <466D4284.14812.39AA0530@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <466DA90B.6050200@shiresoft.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Jun 2007 at 10:18, Mike Ford wrote: > > >> Just a thought, but while He does leak out of just about everything, >> unless something is leaking in I suspect its still He around 1 atm. >> > > It would seem that the partial pressure of He in the atmosphere is > much less than one atm, no? So, barring inward leaks, would not a > lot less than one atm. of He would be left inside? > > Perhaps I've disremembered Dalton's Law or just hallucinated (seems > to happen more and more as I grow older) that I endured high school > physics? > The docs that I've found on the helium replenishment is that you'll go through a bottle of helium in about 6 months (when it drops from 3300psi to 300psi). It's hooked up to the drive (there are fittings and such) all of the time. Fortunately, the drive I have (6200X) uses nitrogen and the person I got it from said that they never replaced the nitrogen the entire time the drive was in service. -- TTFN - Guy From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 15:24:36 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:24:36 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706111324m32051e0dvf62ba6020cdcd5e7@mail.gmail.com> On 6/9/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Here are the specs as I know them: > > Series: 6200X > Speed: 3450rpm > bits per track: 72000 > access time: 8.7ms > tracks: 64 > unformatted capacity (MB): 0.58 > If there is one head per track and you don't have track to track seek time, what does access time measure? Just curious. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 11 16:04:44 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:04:44 -0400 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com> <466B64B7.2040703@shiresoft.com> <466B8166.9010709@garlic.com> <466B2682.20166.316C9F85@cclist.sydex.com> <466C18ED.6090703@garlic.com> <466CF66D.3060302@gmail.com> <20070611122222.B48546@shell.lmi.net> <2BFF1ABB-8048-40B9-B762-ADAD0D92B606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <619367A3-D018-40CB-9F7C-EDC40F35E38B@neurotica.com> On Jun 11, 2007, at 3:52 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > why not hydrogen? >> >> Umm. *BLAM!* > > "Have you seen my new "Hindenburg" drive? No... why is it called > that? Wait until it warms up..." > > (or is that "wait until it goes to park its heads"?) *snicker* Salesdroid: "This is our new drive that uses methane gas bearings!" Customer: "What's that smell?!" ... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 16:08:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:08:43 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90706111324m32051e0dvf62ba6020cdcd5e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, <1e1fc3e90706111324m32051e0dvf62ba6020cdcd5e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <466D576B.9475.39FBAB50@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2007 at 13:24, Glen Slick wrote: > > Speed: 3450rpm > > bits per track: 72000 > > access time: 8.7ms > If there is one head per track and you don't have track to track seek > time, what does access time measure? Just curious. Normally, this is half the maximum rotational latency. At 3450 r/min, one rev takes 17.4 msec., so access time is half that-- 8.7msec. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 16:24:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:24:56 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <619367A3-D018-40CB-9F7C-EDC40F35E38B@neurotica.com> References: <466B3589.9030707@shiresoft.com>, , <619367A3-D018-40CB-9F7C-EDC40F35E38B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <466D5B38.13714.3A0A81DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2007 at 17:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Salesdroid: "This is our new drive that uses methane gas bearings!" > Customer: "What's that smell?!" Methane is odorless--your local utility adds the stink to it so you can smell a leak instead of simply exploding or suffocating. Now, hydrogen sulfide is another matter... Cheers, Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jun 11 18:31:59 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:31:59 -0700 Subject: Tek 4081 In-Reply-To: <466D7EDB.2050700@bitsavers.org> References: <466D7EDB.2050700@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al wrote: > > The 4052 I got from Jim Willing has a large collection of > tapes which he claimed contained BG graphics. I'll have to go > through them to see if any of them say anything about the 4081 on them. > > Some simple graphics (the 4052 had write-thru) were indeed used on the set, but I thought that these were generated by 4051's with the write-thru modification, and 6800 machine code. I didn't know, though, that the 4052 (which was MUCH faster than the 4051 due to a bit-slice CPU that ran the Motrola 6800 instruction set) was used in Battlestar Galactica. Could very well be, though. Jim knew his stuff -- the tapes may well have been code for BG that ran on the 4052. The 4081 was a completely different architecture than the 4051/4052/4054 -- no code compatibility whatsoever. I also recall that 405x cartridge tapes couldn't be read on the 4081, and vice-versa due to different tape recording formats. Rick From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jun 11 19:08:10 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:08:10 -0700 Subject: DEC CD Drives Message-ID: <68b56e2089dde1403bf326102cf1d818@valleyimplants.com> > Hi > Before I go to a dealer and maybe get ripped off. Has anybody in the > UK got any DEC RRD4x series CD Drives. (Must work with a KZQSA) > > Rod Why not just get one of the plentiful early Toshibas? I have a XM-3101 (same as the Sun SL-CD) that boots my VAX4k2 (KZQSA) VAXstation 3176 (int. SCSI), SPARCstation IPX, IRIS Indigo, etc. etc. From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jun 11 19:18:53 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:18:53 -0700 Subject: Other Tek Terminals and other Tek reminiscing In-Reply-To: <466D808E.8060601@bitsavers.org> References: <466D808E.8060601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Anyone seen a Tektronix 4023? It was Tek's first raster scan (versus Storage Scope) terminal. I think it was all TTL, no microprocessor, but not sure. 80x24 monochrome, white phosphor. It had its own control code set (no ANSI sequences at that time), quite different than the storage-scope terminals. I used at lot of these terminals at Tektronix. They were "computer user" areas sprinkled about in each building and floor. The user areas would have a selection of DVST terminals, which were used mostly for graphics and graphics programming work, and a few 4023's (later 4025's and 4027's). For text work (Fortran or Pascal programming) they were great. Initially, the terminals in the user area were hard-wired back to a giant panel of RS-232 connectors in the computer room, that hooked up to the Modcomp-based serial I/O subsystem for the Control Data Cyber 73. Later, they strung coax through the buildings, and used these interesting little shoe-box sized gizmos that were the forerunner of serial terminal servers. They had two serial ports on them, and talked over the coax to a big box in the computer room that had lots of RS-232 connectors that would be connected to the various computers. The coax network was not ethernet, to my knowledge. They were made by a company called Sytek. When you started a session, you would type in "CALL" followed by a space, then a 4-digit hexidecimal (IIRC -- maybe it was decimal) code for the system that you wanted to connect to, then hit RETURN. It'd connect you over the "network" to the appropriate machine. By then, there were some VAXen (11/780's) running VMS and BSD Unix, along with the old Cyber 73, and a later CDC Cyber-series (maybe a Cyber 176?) machine. Soon, the terminal network spread to Tektronix' new Wilsonville campus. I never worked at Wilsonville, but the had a bunch of DEC PDP-10 systems in their computer room in Wilsonville. I visited the data center there, and found the "CALL" codes for the Sytek network for the PDP-10's written down near a console, and remembered them. I tinkered about trying to get into some of the DEC 10's but never succeeded. I worked as a systems operator (the term used in those days) at the Scientific Computer Center at Tektronix' headquarters in Beaverton, Oregon, from '77 until around '83. I mostly ran the Cybers during day shift at first, then later on night and weekend shifts. The Cybers were amazing, though the '73 was an all-transistorized machine, using core memory designed in the mid-1960's by Seymour Cray and friends. Its design was rather dated by the time I started running the machine, but it was still darned fast for the time. It could easily handle a few hundred simultaneous users under the KRONOS timeshared operating system. I once had the HV power supply in the operator's console of the Cyber 73 (famous dual-tube vector character (and graphics) console) fail catastrophically when I was sitting in front of it. Sparks and little molten balls of metal spewed out of the bottom of the housing for the CRTs onto the keyboard area of the "desk" the console was built into. Fortunately, the chair I was in had wheels, and when I saw the video collapse into a single bright point, then fade out on both tubes, I pushed off the console hard, and missed being burned. It was pretty scary at the time. Tektronix had a fire department dedicated to it, in one corner of the campus. The firemen showed up because the smoke detectors tripped, arming the Halon system. The halon dump was cancelled, but the firemen still came. There were giant (probably 8" tall) power vacuum tubes in the display power supply, and one of them had shorted. The on-site CDC repair guys (there was always at least on one-site during normal business hours, and they were always on call) had to fly in a new power tube, and also replace a bunch of other components. The failure happened in the morning, and the console was back in operation by late afternoon the same day. We had to run the machine from a 4023 terminal that was directly attached to the Cyber. That was "fun". Users used magtape a lot to store their stuff, as disk space was pretty limited (cost-centers had to pay for the disk space and CPU time they used out of their budgets), and there were almost constant requests for magtape mounts. The "emergency" console interface on the 4023 was pretty clunky, and it really slowed things down. The operators were proud of how fast they'd handle tape mount requests. We'd have contests to see who could get a tape found and mounted the fastest, and let the system know it was ready for use. The Cyber 73 had one old 7-Track magtape drive, and two nine-track drives. I think that the 7-Track was 800BPI, and the 9-Tracks could read/write 800BPI and 1200BPI tapes. Enough rambling. All I can say is that I sure had a good time, and learned a tremendous amount working as a "kid" at Tektronix (I started there 3 days after graduating from high school, at 18 years of age). Memories of those times are pretty deeply etched in my mind. The "good old days" of computing, they were. -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 19:45:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:45:26 -0700 Subject: Other Tek Terminals and other Tek reminiscing In-Reply-To: References: <466D808E.8060601@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <466D8A36.9122.3AC20F1C@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2007 at 17:18, Rick Bensene wrote: > let the system know it was ready for use. The Cyber 73 had one old > 7-Track magtape drive, and two nine-track drives. I think that the > 7-Track was 800BPI, and the 9-Tracks could read/write 800BPI and 1200BPI > tapes. The 7-track was probably a 657 (if it was blue-glass type) or 607 if it was a big orange unit. 200-556-800 bpi. The 9-track was likely a 659 (800-1600); I think the later auto-threading 669's could handle 6250 GCR. I almost (the movers were due to come in three days) took a job as project manager in Wilsonville for the Tek Color Graphics Terminal. A little voice in the middle of the night told me that the whole affair didn't smell right--and I opted out the next morning. I later discovered that Tek lost a pile of money on the project and it was probably in deep trouble when I interviewed. Sometimes you go with your gut. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jun 11 21:48:07 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:48:07 -0700 Subject: You *can* get a good deal on ebay Message-ID: >> Are the SGI collectors just out enjoying the nice weather? > > With IRIX a dead end, I don't know how much people are going after > them any more. My pair of O2's (I also have one with the slowest O2 > CPU) are the most impressive workstations I've ever seen, and I'd > love to have an Octane 2, Fuel, or Tezro, but unless I get them > locally for basically nothing I don't see me spending the money to > get one. There's something just, I don't know, wrong about the complaint that IRIX is a dead end on this list. Discontinued, yes, but so is DOMAIN, TSB, OS/8, CP/M ... and yet those machines are still collected/used/discussed here. At this point, VAX OpenVMS is at roughly the same position as IRIX- no new hardware and no major upgrades to VMS. IRIX will be "unofficially supported" by usergroups for quite a while yet-just look at Nekoware. They're still very well made machines, and IRIX has its quirks, but it is a good, stable UNIX implementation (and Indigo Magic is a pretty good UI). I suppose the collectors will get to them (SGI does have a reputation), but for now I'm happy that it's predominantly hobbyists- machines are cheaper that way. I haven't been able to afford a PDP-11, but I have several IRISes. Just think of yourself as being at the forefront. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 23:07:39 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:07:39 -0700 Subject: DDC Fixed Head Disks In-Reply-To: <466D4284.14812.39AA0530@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 11 Jun 2007 at 10:18, Mike Ford wrote: > > > Just a thought, but while He does leak out of just about everything, > > unless something is leaking in I suspect its still He around 1 atm. > >It would seem that the partial pressure of He in the atmosphere is >much less than one atm, no? So, barring inward leaks, would not a >lot less than one atm. of He would be left inside? > >Perhaps I've disremembered Dalton's Law or just hallucinated (seems >to happen more and more as I grow older) that I endured high school >physics? > Hi Chuck So long as the leak was small, there would be close to a vacuum inside. So, as Chuck says much less than one atm. If it was a large leak, it would be atmophere with no detectable He. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm From marvin at west.net Mon Jun 11 23:21:41 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:21:41 -0700 Subject: Dry Air Purging on IBM Computers Message-ID: <466E1F55.EC18AD6E@west.net> I was reading an application note about a Puregas heatless dryer, and one of the applications mentioned that some IBM computers require a dry air purge. Does anyone know which computer(s) this is referring to? The URL of the booklet is http://puregas.com/industrial/pdf/Drying_Compressed_Air_Booklet.pdf These things look like they could be useful when small CFM ratings of dry air are required. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 11 23:38:38 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 00:38:38 -0400 Subject: anybody know of a source for these? Message-ID: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> A friend of mine writes: > I find it very interesting that you have all those old IC's and whatnot, > since I restore pinball machines and video games from the 80's/90's. I > looked over your list, but you state on the page it isn't complete. Any > chance you have UDN7180 IC's? I don't have any of these, and didn't know what they were, so when I asked he said: > UDN7180 is a plasma display driver. It's used in solid state pinball > machines with 7 segment orange plasma displays. They have a tendency to blow > themselves up from time to time, so I'm always on the lookout for a few. Anybody know of any of these? Have some maybe? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Jun 12 00:51:52 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 22:51:52 -0700 Subject: anybody know of a source for these? In-Reply-To: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5ba001c7acb5$c6da1eb0$0901a8c0@liberator> http://lupinesystems.com/download/ has a circuit board that they designed to replace that IC. And http://www.arcadechips.com/product_info.php?products_id=79 is a source for the chip (at $20 ish a pop currently) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 9:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: anybody know of a source for these? A friend of mine writes: > I find it very interesting that you have all those old IC's and whatnot, > since I restore pinball machines and video games from the 80's/90's. I > looked over your list, but you state on the page it isn't complete. Any > chance you have UDN7180 IC's? I don't have any of these, and didn't know what they were, so when I asked he said: > UDN7180 is a plasma display driver. It's used in solid state pinball > machines with 7 segment orange plasma displays. They have a tendency to blow > themselves up from time to time, so I'm always on the lookout for a few. Anybody know of any of these? Have some maybe? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 12 02:01:50 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 03:01:50 -0400 Subject: PDP/Cray swap? Message-ID: Is anyone in the US interested in possibly swapping some PDP gear (lights-n-switches PDP-11, or non-E/non-A PDP-8) for some (functional/ complete/runnable) Cray hardware? My income is limited at the moment, so shipping/driving would be difficult, but am willing to negotiate otherwise. Interested? Contact me off list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 12 04:19:01 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:19:01 +0100 Subject: DEC CD Drives Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDB@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I managed to locate an RRD42-AA (ie real Dec for 14 Pounds UK (27 Dollars US)) I aready have a Yamaha SCSI drive in an external powered case. I also managed to locate the correct cable. (50 Way Centronics male to 50 way D type male double density pins and clip type) This fits the SCSI connector on the back of the external box and the other (big) end goes into the KZQSA So... When the cable arrives try the Yamaha drive. If its no good. Then remove the Yamaha drive from its box and replace with the RRD42. This way I end up with one or maybe two working SCSI drives. Regards Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Scott Quinn Sent: 12 June 2007 01:08 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DEC CD Drives > Hi > Before I go to a dealer and maybe get ripped off. Has anybody in > the UK got any DEC RRD4x series CD Drives. (Must work with a KZQSA) > > Rod Why not just get one of the plentiful early Toshibas? I have a XM-3101 (same as the Sun SL-CD) that boots my VAX4k2 (KZQSA) VAXstation 3176 (int. SCSI), SPARCstation IPX, IRIS Indigo, etc. etc. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 12 04:36:31 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:36:31 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well if you if you will pardon the expression, "Its heading in the right direction" I agree, the charges build up is a bit of an unknown. > 'has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos' That seems to be a lot of weight in a small space. Port to port is less of a problem for me as the UK is that much smaller than the US. I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. Thers a good chance that there's a service from US east coast ports to UK west/south ports. So... Boston to Liverpool or Southampton New York to Liverpool or Southampton. Etc. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ford Sent: 11 June 2007 19:05 To: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: My sale or swap list (Update) Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > I am curently investigating shipping costs between the UK and US. > As collectors we don't need next day delivery but we do need full > cover insurance. > > Don't go away. The cost is not that bad. > > Rod I'm looking at LCL oceanic shipping, its Less than Container Load, basically a rectangular box that fits about 20 to a container, has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos is part of the base shipping cost of about $150. As usual lots of quicksand around the treasure, port fees, brokerage, customs, and its a port to port service, not terminal to terminal or door to door without adding a local ground shipper to the mix. Also its targeted to business, not private goods, so some places don't seem to want to even talk to a one time shipper. Complete and accurate paperwork seems essential. It does tend to be SLOW, as in couple weeks transit, with a month or more of sitting on a dock at either end. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 07:33:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:33:27 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On 6/12/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > 'has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos' > That seems to be a lot of weight in a small space. Last time I checked, water was 1000 kilos per cubic meter, so the base charge seems to be centered around the density of water. > Port to port is less of a problem for me as the UK is that much smaller > than the US. > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. Indeed. Being in the mid-west, we don't think about ports much. I can drive to NYC in under 14 hours. Boston is farther. I think the closest Atlantic port, drive time, would be Baltimore at around, IIRC, 9 hours. Lake Erie ports are close (2ish hours), but would almost certainly require a shifting of the load to another vessel at an Atlantic port somewhere. -ethan From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jun 12 08:10:56 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:10:56 -0400 Subject: Update - S-100 Proto board design available online - pcb image and cad image Message-ID: <466E9B60.1070907@comcast.net> I've been working on a S-100 proto board design recently. I like to say thanks for all the suggestions that everyone sent. I updated the page to include images of the pcb design and the cad design(3D) Anyone else that might be interested in this, I can add your name to the list on there. You can see the current work on my homepage. http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/rog.html =Dan -- [ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Jun 12 08:56:32 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:56:32 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <29169743.1181656592562.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> A couple of months ago I acquired a strange looking terminal that was said to be a VT50 Decscope. A picture of it can be found on my web site at: http://www.woffordwitch.com/VT50.asp The case looks like it was cast in pieces from a rough mold of a standard VT50. Many of the key caps are not the usual color, and look more like the key caps on the earlier VT05. I have not opened it up and studied the inside yet to see if it has the proper "guts" of a VT50. The previous owner said that he worked for DEC back in the 1970s, and they gave this "VT50" to him to use at home so that he could remotely connect to a system at work. Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever seen or heard of anything like this? Thanks, Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jun 12 09:46:50 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:46:50 -0400 Subject: Rough batch of 2007 VCFE Pictures... Message-ID: No captions, no thumbnails, no bad shots removed... http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/vcfe2007/ Use the bandwidth at your own risk. Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/844 - Release Date: 6/11/2007 5:10 PM From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 10:35:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:35:12 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:36:31 +0100. <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, "Rod Smallwood" writes: > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 10:38:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:38:07 -0600 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:56:32 -0400. <29169743.1181656592562.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: In article <29169743.1181656592562.JavaMail.root at elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, Ashley Carder writes: > Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever > seen or heard of anything like this? I saw one of these for sale on ebay recently, advertised as a VT52. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 10:55:09 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:55:09 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <466EC1DD.10001@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, > "Rod Smallwood" writes: > >> I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) What's the closest (in time, not distance) port for you? Vallejo? Richmond? If so, a good portion of your drive time would be traffic, I would think. Peace... Sridhar From vrs at msn.com Tue Jun 12 11:05:39 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:05:39 -0700 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope References: <29169743.1181656592562.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <02d101c7ad0b$860a83b0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Ashley Carder": > Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever > seen or heard of anything like this? A friend of mine who is a former DEC employee once told me a war story about being given a "prototype" terminal to take home. He said the PCBs were thin, and kind of flexible, like the cardboard sheets in the back of a tablet of paper, and the thing was very tempermental -- even after you got it working again the MTBF was in hours. He said he eventually threw the accursed thing away. I wonder if this is one of those? Vince From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 12 11:06:58 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:06:58 -0600 Subject: anybody know of a source for these? In-Reply-To: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <466EC4A2.1080408@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> UDN7180 is a plasma display driver. It's used in solid state pinball >> machines with 7 segment orange plasma displays. They have a tendency to blow >> themselves up from time to time, so I'm always on the lookout for a few. > > Anybody know of any of these? Have some maybe? Try Sphere - they may have some. http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies.html#catalog From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 12 11:39:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706121642.MAA21630@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> 'has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos' > That seems to be a lot of weight in a small space. 1000kg/m^3 is approximately the density of water: one gram per millilitre. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 11:44:38 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:44:38 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:55:09 -0400. <466EC1DD.10001@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <466EC1DD.10001 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> , > > "Rod Smallwood" writes: > > > >> I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > > > It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) > > What's the closest (in time, not distance) port for you? Vallejo? > Richmond? San Francisco Bay Area > If so, a good portion of your drive time would be traffic, I > would think. Traffic only starts to show up around Sacramento. I'm 750+ miles from the coast. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jim at photojim.ca Tue Jun 12 11:47:22 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:47:22 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706121642.MAA21630@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <019501c7ad11$59786460$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "der Mouse" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 10:39 AM Subject: Re: My sale or swap list (Update) > 1000kg/m^3 is approximately the density of water: one gram per > millilitre. Precisely, even, if memory serves. I believe that the kilogram is defined as the weight of one litre of water at a certain pressure and temperature. Jim From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Jun 12 12:05:19 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:05:19 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <200706121642.MAA21630@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070612130243.038a6778@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that der Mouse may have mentioned these words: > >> 'has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos' > > That seems to be a lot of weight in a small space. > >1000kg/m^3 is approximately the density of water: one gram per >millilitre. Considering the fact that the vessel the cargo will be travelling on will be displacing water to function, it seems logical to me that their billing structure would be based on that particular density to ensure the business stays afloat. [[ Pun intended. ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 12 12:01:00 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:01:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <019501c7ad11$59786460$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706121642.MAA21630@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <019501c7ad11$59786460$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <200706121707.NAA22017@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> 1000kg/m^3 is approximately the density of water: one gram per >> millilitre. > Precisely, even, if memory serves. I believe that the kilogram is > defined as the weight of one litre of water at a certain pressure and > temperature. Well, it'd be the *mass* of, not the *weight* of. But that aside, I thought the kilogram was still defined as the mass of a certain piece of metal kept at the BIPM in S?vres? Wikipedia certainly thinks so (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram).... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 12 12:12:56 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:12:56 -0400 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 10 June 2007 16:15, Tony Duell wrote: > Anyway, from what I remeber, the controller card is based round a 6802 > processor [1]. The actual disk contorller chip, anohter 40 pin device, is > made by Fujitsu, and has the same pinout as the 1793 _apart from being > +5V supply only_. I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is that it by any chance? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Jun 12 12:24:28 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:24:28 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <20682726.1181669068833.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever >> seen or heard of anything like this? > >A friend of mine who is a former DEC employee once told me a war story >about being given a "prototype" terminal to take home. He said the PCBs >were thin, and kind of flexible, like the cardboard sheets in the back of a >tablet of paper, and the thing was very tempermental -- even after you got >it working again the MTBF was in hours. He said he eventually threw the >accursed thing away. > >I wonder if this is one of those? > > Vince It looks like some kind of prototype. I'll open it up tonight or tomorrow to see what it looks like on the inside. I'll try to get some more pictures. Here's what the previous owner told me when I asked him about it. It sounds like it worked for him for 6 years. "I worked for DEC in the late 70's early 80's as a software engineer on the PDP10/PDP20 mainframe computers. I was given this terminal so I could work from home. When I left DEC they did not want the terminal back. So I've had it all these years. We plan to sell our house so I am doing some major house cleaning, selling on Ebay, garage sale, etc. I would say the last time it was used was around 1984. I used it frequently for about 6 years, so 1978->1984. Has not been plugged in since 1984!" Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Jun 12 12:27:49 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:27:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <6532665.1181669269700.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever seen or heard of anything like this? Richard said: >I saw one of these for sale on ebay recently, advertised as a VT52. This is the one that was on ebay. It was listed as a VT50. It also came with the VT50 engineering prints and a VT50 manual. Ashley From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 12:32:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:32:11 -0700 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <466E762B.30771.3E5BC2FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2007 at 13:12, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is that > it by any chance? The drawer in my parts locker labeled "WD1793" has a number of MB8877s. They're the same. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 12 12:32:41 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:32:41 -0400 Subject: anybody know of a source for these? In-Reply-To: <5ba001c7acb5$c6da1eb0$0901a8c0@liberator> References: <200706120038.38928.rtellason@verizon.net> <5ba001c7acb5$c6da1eb0$0901a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <200706121332.42123.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 12 June 2007 01:51, Geoff Reed wrote: > http://lupinesystems.com/download/ has a circuit board that they designed > to replace that IC. > > And http://www.arcadechips.com/product_info.php?products_id=79 is a source > for the chip (at $20 ish a pop currently) Thanks, I've passed that along to him... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 9:39 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: anybody know of a source for these? > > A friend of mine writes: > > I find it very interesting that you have all those old IC's and whatnot, > > since I restore pinball machines and video games from the 80's/90's. I > > looked over your list, but you state on the page it isn't complete. Any > > chance you have UDN7180 IC's? > > I don't have any of these, and didn't know what they were, so when I > asked > > he said: > > UDN7180 is a plasma display driver. It's used in solid state pinball > > machines with 7 segment orange plasma displays. They have a tendency to > > blow > > > themselves up from time to time, so I'm always on the lookout for a few. > > Anybody know of any of these? Have some maybe? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 12 12:46:32 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:46:32 -0400 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <466E762B.30771.3E5BC2FF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> <466E762B.30771.3E5BC2FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706121346.32650.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 12 June 2007 13:32, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Jun 2007 at 13:12, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is > > that it by any chance? > > The drawer in my parts locker labeled "WD1793" has a number of > MB8877s. They're the same. I think I first ran into that working on the Osborne 1. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Tue Jun 12 13:40:13 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:40:13 -0400 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 Message-ID: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Hi all-- I'm doing some work on promoting Netrek, and it's gotton me interested in the following qualities: graphical (incl. ascii graphics) action (real-time-ish) multiplayer, by which I mean 3 or more wide area on the internet teams leagues and guilds If anyone can help with the following questions or add material, that'd be great... I've got the following timeline points: 1972 - Alto Trek probably first networked game multiplayer 1973 (Fall) - Empire II on the PLATO system not networked, but a wide-area multiplayer action game from graphic terminals did not clock like a modern game; players called for their own screen updates manually 1974 - MazeWar, probably second networked game ? XNS/PUP, right? first First Person Shooter first use of Avatars (enemy players appeared as walking eyeballs. I don't count ships as Avatars) first level mapping first or second rendered 3D perspective graphics (Spasim may have been first on this) ? In 1993, SGI did a Mazewar demo at Interop, with workstations placed around the show, So at some point, MazeWar became playable on a routed TCP/IP network. When? 1981 - Empire tournament play starts 1983 Jan - flag day; NCP turned off, net goes TCP/IP 1983 - SGI Dogfight (aka fight) ? I think the first game with its own Internet client-server protocol? ? Did Mazewar get there first? It was client-server and not peer- to-peer, right? ? I also think it was LAN-only, using broadcast UDP? I've also heard it was originally XNS, but there's a well-known UDP port for it, so when did it switch? I believe that while it was possible to choose to play in ? cooperation, the game itself did not have teams per se? 1985 - X Window System 10 ships 1986 - Xtrek, descendant of PLATO Empire ? first X-Windows thrown-display game? 1988 - Xtrek II: Netrek ? second client-server game? ? first client-server team game? ? first client-server game with routeable protocol? 1991 - Netrek league play starts So, what am I missing? 1974 to 1983 seems like too long a gap for there to have been no ARPAnet graphic action games... there were many PLATO games during that timeframe, and an IBM space battle game of some sort. Also probably military simulators. Thanks all! From bfoley at compsoc.nuigalway.ie Tue Jun 12 14:14:11 2007 From: bfoley at compsoc.nuigalway.ie (Brian Foley) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:14:11 +0100 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> On Tue, Jun 12, 2007 at 02:40:13PM -0400, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > Hi all-- > > I'm doing some work on promoting Netrek, and it's gotton > me interested in the following qualities: > graphical (incl. ascii graphics) > action (real-time-ish) > multiplayer, by which I mean 3 or more > wide area > on the internet > teams > leagues and guilds There's also Bolo, a networked tank game for the BBC Micro written in 1987. Stuart Cheshire's thesis on the subject can be read at http://www.lgm.com/bolo/guides/dissertation/ Cheers, Brian. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 12 14:13:06 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <200706121916.PAA23720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 1973 (Fall) - Empire II on the PLATO system > not networked, but a wide-area multiplayer action game from > graphic terminals > did not clock like a modern game; players called for their own > screen updates manually I played 0empire on PLATO sometime around '77 or so, and that description is not quite right for the game I played: you could ask for an update manually (and usually did, especially during firefights), but if you just let it sit, it would refresh on a timer every once in a while (five seconds? I forget). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 14:12:57 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:12:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jun 12, 7 01:12:56 pm Message-ID: > > On Sunday 10 June 2007 16:15, Tony Duell wrote: > > Anyway, from what I remeber, the controller card is based round a 6802 > > processor [1]. The actual disk contorller chip, anohter 40 pin device, = > is > > made by Fujitsu, and has the same pinout as the 1793 _apart from being > > +5V supply only_. > > I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is= > that=20 > it by any chance? That number rigns bells with me too, now that you've mentioned it, but I wouldn't put my life on it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 14:15:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:15:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <466E762B.30771.3E5BC2FF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 12, 7 10:32:11 am Message-ID: > > On 12 Jun 2007 at 13:12, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is that > > it by any chance? > > The drawer in my parts locker labeled "WD1793" has a number of > MB8877s. They're the same. Are you 100% sure of that? I was udner the impression that the WD p[art needed some -ve supplu rail (-12V?) and that the Fujitsu part didn't, the pin was a N/C. The Fujistu chip will replace the WD with no problems, but the reverse may not be true (and IIRC, the HP board that started this doesn't have a -ve supply rail). -tony From pdp11 at saccade.com Tue Jun 12 14:21:58 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:21:58 -0700 Subject: Tek 4081 In-Reply-To: <466D7EDB.2050700@bitsavers.org> References: <466D7EDB.2050700@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200706121922.l5CJMYEm041970@keith.ezwind.net> >I've been looking for technical/service docs for the 4027 and >411x/412x series for a while now. A recent attempt with Google found this page: http://www.surplussales.com/Manuals/man_tek.html That claims to have 402x, 405x and 4081 manuals. The prices are pretty alarming though. >...but when the fixed disk crashed, it was pretty ugly. The >machine had a ROM bootloader that allowed booting from a 4051-like >cartrige magtape drive, or disk. Installing the OS took a LONG time >from cartridge tape. Most vivid GOS memory: The FORTRAN library used the classic six-letters-or-less "license plate" naming conventions. The name for the routine to create and open a new file was just one or two letters different from the routine to format and initialize a volume. You can see what's coming. "Gee this is taking a long time to run...maybe it's hung?...better try rebooting...uh oh...". I think it qualifies as my worst source code typo. Cheers, jp From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jun 12 14:38:02 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:38:02 -0400 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <466EF61A.7090303@atarimuseum.com> I played Conquest quite a bit on the Vax in college, that played through the VT100 terminals with refreshing the graphics on the screen for animation (ships turning, shots fired, etc...) We'd get like 10 or more people on after hours in the computer labs in Manhattan and Old Westbury and we'd essentially bring the Vax to its knee's ;-) Curt Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > Hi all-- > > I'm doing some work on promoting Netrek, and it's gotton > me interested in the following qualities: > graphical (incl. ascii graphics) > action (real-time-ish) > multiplayer, by which I mean 3 or more > wide area > on the internet > teams > leagues and guilds > > > If anyone can help with the following questions or add material, > that'd be great... > > > I've got the following timeline points: > 1972 - Alto Trek > probably first networked game > multiplayer > 1973 (Fall) - Empire II on the PLATO system > not networked, but a wide-area multiplayer action game from > graphic terminals > did not clock like a modern game; players called for their own > screen updates manually > 1974 - MazeWar, probably second networked game > ? XNS/PUP, right? > first First Person Shooter > first use of Avatars (enemy players appeared as walking > eyeballs. I don't count ships as Avatars) > first level mapping > first or second rendered 3D perspective graphics (Spasim may > have been first on this) > ? In 1993, SGI did a Mazewar demo at Interop, with > workstations placed around the show, > So at some point, MazeWar became playable on a routed TCP/IP > network. When? > 1981 - Empire tournament play starts > 1983 Jan - flag day; NCP turned off, net goes TCP/IP > 1983 - SGI Dogfight (aka fight) > ? I think the first game with its own Internet client-server > protocol? > ? Did Mazewar get there first? It was client-server and not peer- > to-peer, right? > ? I also think it was LAN-only, using broadcast UDP? I've also heard > it was originally XNS, but there's a well-known UDP port for it, > so when did it switch? > I believe that while it was possible to choose to play in > ? cooperation, the game itself did not have teams per se? > 1985 - X Window System 10 ships > 1986 - Xtrek, descendant of PLATO Empire > ? first X-Windows thrown-display game? > 1988 - Xtrek II: Netrek > ? second client-server game? > ? first client-server team game? > ? first client-server game with routeable protocol? > 1991 - Netrek league play starts > > So, what am I missing? > > 1974 to 1983 seems like too long a gap for there to have been > no ARPAnet graphic action games... there were many PLATO games > during that timeframe, and an IBM space battle game of some sort. > > Also probably military simulators. > > Thanks all! > > > From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Tue Jun 12 14:50:25 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:50:25 -0400 Subject: classic computer rescue squad Message-ID: <0qsl8xymta.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Hi-- I'm seeing posts here about systems to be rescued, but often no replies. The classic computer rescue squad pages have no listings later than 2005. This is a high-bandwidth list that people interested in old systems can't neccessarily keep up with. Could we get a seperate list going just for rescue listings, and have either cctech or cctalk as a subscriber? That way, folks interested only in seeing systems listings could see them and maybe rescue systems. Thoughts? --akb From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 12 15:04:24 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:04:24 +0100 Subject: Tek 4081 In-Reply-To: <200706121922.l5CJMYEm041970@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <001801c7ad2c$e10c8990$2e04010a@uatempname> J. Peterson wrote: > Most vivid GOS memory: The FORTRAN library used the classic > six-letters-or-less "license plate" naming conventions. The name for > the routine to create and open a new file was just one or two letters > different from the routine to format and initialize a volume. You > can see what's coming. "Gee this is taking a long time to > run...maybe it's hung?...better try rebooting...uh oh...". I think > it qualifies as my worst source code typo. As long as your source file was on that volume, at least your butt was well and truyly covered :-) Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 15:13:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:13:29 -0700 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: References: <466E762B.30771.3E5BC2FF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 12, 7 10:32:11 am, Message-ID: <466E9BF9.21117.3EEF74FD@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2007 at 20:15, Tony Duell wrote: > Are you 100% sure of that? I was udner the impression that the WD p[art > needed some -ve supplu rail (-12V?) and that the Fujitsu part didn't, the > pin was a N/C. The Fujistu chip will replace the WD with no problems, but > the reverse may not be true (and IIRC, the HP board that started this > doesn't have a -ve supply rail). I should be more careful in my writing. The WD1793 takes a +12 and +5 supplies, while the MB8877 requires only +5 (the other pin is NC). A MB8877 will replace a WD1793, but not necessarily vice-versa. In my particular situation, I've replaced WD1793s with MB8877s, never the other way around. Thanks for catching that. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 12 15:16:13 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:16:13 -0500 Subject: classic computer rescue squad References: <0qsl8xymta.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <007c01c7ad2e$8903d8a0$6600a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > Could we get a seperate list going just for rescue listings, > and have either cctech or cctalk as a subscriber? Since the CCRS wasn't maintained, and I tried for well over a year to get in touch with Bill Y with no results, we went ahead and put a new/replacement online CCRS together for the classiccmp website. It hasn't been made live yet.... :\ Jay From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 12 15:18:04 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:18:04 -0700 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 Message-ID: <466EFF7C.3060900@bitsavers.org> 1972 - Alto Trek probably first networked game nope.. 1972 is WAY off. Docs at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/alto/trek21.pdf Trek was developed at the Univ of Rochester, who would not have gotten any machines as part of the university grant til the late 70's. 1974 - MazeWar, probably second networked game ? XNS/PUP, right? PUP, not XNS. Closer to being the first networked game (but NOT on the Alto) http://www.digibarn.com/collections/games/xerox-maze-war/index.html IMLAC version predates it, 76-77 at PARC From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 15:36:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:36:12 -0600 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:27:49 -0400. <6532665.1181669269700.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: In article <6532665.1181669269700.JavaMail.root at elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, Ashley Carder writes: > Richard said: > >I saw one of these for sale on ebay recently, advertised as a VT52. > > > This is the one that was on ebay. It was listed as a VT50. It also came wit h the VT50 engineering prints and a VT50 manual. Ah, my fuzzy memory then. So you're the one who snagged that away from me :-) (Actually, I think I got too busy to bid on it, I can't remember exactly. I'm getting old.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 15:39:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:39:35 -0600 Subject: Tek 4081 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:21:58 -0700. <200706121922.l5CJMYEm041970@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <200706121922.l5CJMYEm041970 at keith.ezwind.net>, "J. Peterson" writes: > > >I've been looking for technical/service docs for the 4027 and > >411x/412x series for a while now. > > A recent attempt with Google found this page: > > http://www.surplussales.com/Manuals/man_tek.html > > That claims to have 402x, 405x and 4081 manuals. The prices are > pretty alarming though. Try this place: -- they are located in Salt Lake City and have the operator and service manuals for the 4027 at a cheaper price, although the service manual is still $165. They also have manuals for the 4051. I haven't used them, but I've been meaning to drop by their location since they're local. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 12 15:53:57 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:53:57 -0700 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706121642.MAA21630@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <019501c7ad11$59786460$1802a8c0@JIMM> <200706121707.NAA22017@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <466F07E5.FCDFF136@cs.ubc.ca> der Mouse wrote: > > >> 1000kg/m^3 is approximately the density of water: one gram per > >> millilitre. > > Precisely, even, if memory serves. I believe that the kilogram is > > defined as the weight of one litre of water at a certain pressure and > > temperature. > > Well, it'd be the *mass* of, not the *weight* of. But that aside, I > thought the kilogram was still defined as the mass of a certain piece > of metal kept at the BIPM in S?vres? Wikipedia certainly thinks so > (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram).... I believe that definition (piece of metal) is more recent, while the original definition from the 1700-or-1800s was 1 litre = volume of 1 cubic decimetre 1 kilogram = mass of 1 litre of water at STP From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 12 15:55:20 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:55:20 -0700 Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont Message-ID: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> Last night on the CBC TV news there was an item about a decommissioned underground NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont. and how the Cdn gov/DoD is trying to figure out what to do with it. The control room is still filled with equipment, including SAGE-style-or-era video consoles (not sure that they were SAGE, the camera went by too quickly). There was also a camera shot of what appeared to be some other desk-style computer console. The reporter referred to the place as being 'filled with obsolete equipment', the rest of the systems are presumably still there too. .. now that would be a rescue .. one can dream, but it'll probably all end up in the scrap bins. Perhaps somebody nearby should start making inquiries. Does anybody with a background in SAGE know whether that bunker was part of SAGE, or what systems would be in there? I've never been really clear on how the SAGE / DEW line / other NORAD systems related to each other or overlapped/interconnected in operations or equipment. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 16:02:16 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:02:16 -0700 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <466EF61A.7090303@atarimuseum.com> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <466EF61A.7090303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706121402u5cbdb199i5c428fb2be699211@mail.gmail.com> Anyone ever see a game that I think was called "Monster" that ran on a Tektronix vector storage terminal around the late 1970's time period? I believe it was hosted on a Honeywell mainframe they had a UAA (AK). >From what I remember the player was randomly positioned somewhere in 2-D space, along with various "monsters" and suns and black holes and maybe anti-gravity objects. You input angle and velocity from your position and tried to hit the monsters and it would plot the trajectory around and into the various objects. It was one of the first computer graphic games I ever saw and it was pretty cool at the time, although pretty simple as I think about it now. -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 16:16:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:16:54 -0600 Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:55:20 -0700. <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: If it has SAGE gear, I volunteer to fly up and help with any dismantling/packing/crating/preserving! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 12 16:47:42 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:47:42 -0700 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale References: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> <075D91BF-4792-427E-B71F-3B3FDC2AC8FE@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <466F147E.DA545B71@cs.ubc.ca> Speaking of rescues, was there any word or resolution on that warehouse full of stuff up here (Vancouver/Burnaby, B.C.) from a couple of weeks ago? From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 16:59:55 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:59:55 -0500 Subject: Visiting San Jose area Message-ID: <51ea77730706121459n6745f506ob0f48962ad6ac055@mail.gmail.com> Hello all - I'm heading out tomorrow on a work trip to San Jose, CA and may have about a day for some personal adventuring. Top of my list is the CHM, of course, having never been there. What other landmarks, stores, shops, signs or holes in the ground are worth seeing out that way? I will be flying, so if I pick up anything interesting I'll be paying to ship it back :) -j -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 17:02:39 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:02:39 -0500 Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont In-Reply-To: References: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <624966d60706121502x4b2bb362se9cc68211ed7bc36@mail.gmail.com> I worked on an ANFSQ7 (SAGE) and I believe that North Bay was the only one still active in Canada at that time. PZaul Anderson On 6/12/07, Richard wrote: > > If it has SAGE gear, I volunteer to fly up and help with any > dismantling/packing/crating/preserving! > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From evan at snarc.net Tue Jun 12 17:08:09 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 18:08:09 -0400 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706121459n6745f506ob0f48962ad6ac055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. And of course there's the Digibarn (appointment required) and the Intel Museum. -----Original Message----- From: Jason T [mailto:silent700 at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Visiting San Jose area Hello all - I'm heading out tomorrow on a work trip to San Jose, CA and may have about a day for some personal adventuring. Top of my list is the CHM, of course, having never been there. What other landmarks, stores, shops, signs or holes in the ground are worth seeing out that way? I will be flying, so if I pick up anything interesting I'll be paying to ship it back :) -j -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jun 12 17:12:14 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 18:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont In-Reply-To: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> References: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jun 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Does anybody with a background in SAGE know whether that bunker was part of > SAGE, or what systems would be in there? I've never been really clear on how > the SAGE / DEW line / other NORAD systems related to each other or > overlapped/interconnected in operations or equipment. I don't know what you saw, but North Bay definitely housed a SAGE system at one time. Online info says that some of the equipment from North Bay is at the Computer History Museum. http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/TheCompMusRep/TCMR-V04.html http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/199805/msg00023.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jun 12 17:22:22 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:22:22 -0700 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> References: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. And of course there's the > Digibarn (appointment required) and the Intel Museum. > If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my shop (although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile away. Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason T [mailto:silent700 at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:00 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Visiting San Jose area > > Hello all - I'm heading out tomorrow on a work trip to San Jose, CA > and may have about a day for some personal adventuring. Top of my > list is the CHM, of course, having never been there. What other > landmarks, stores, shops, signs or holes in the ground are worth > seeing out that way? > > I will be flying, so if I pick up anything interesting I'll be paying > to ship it back :) > > -j > > -- TTFN - Guy From medavidson at mac.com Tue Jun 12 17:32:16 2007 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:32:16 -0700 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> References: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <19475519-D601-4858-A5C2-619A31628B9D@mac.com> Just an additional note... On Jun 12, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. And of course there's the >> Digibarn (appointment required) and the Intel Museum. >> > > If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my > shop (although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile > away. Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) I *highly* recommend visiting Guy's shop... it's amazing! Mark From evan at snarc.net Tue Jun 12 18:35:45 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 19:35:45 -0400 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <19475519-D601-4858-A5C2-619A31628B9D@mac.com> Message-ID: <000401c7ad4a$662eb270$6401a8c0@evan> Ooh, good point! It's amazing indeed. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Davidson [mailto:medavidson at mac.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: General at shiresoft.com Subject: Re: Visiting San Jose area Just an additional note... On Jun 12, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. And of course there's the >> Digibarn (appointment required) and the Intel Museum. >> > > If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my > shop (although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile > away. Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) I *highly* recommend visiting Guy's shop... it's amazing! Mark From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 18:42:12 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 19:42:12 -0400 Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont In-Reply-To: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> References: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I've never been really clear on how > the SAGE / DEW line / other NORAD systems related to each other or > overlapped/interconnected in operations or equipment. SAGE was the whole system - computers, radar, radios, modems and all. Nitpick. Anyway, look at Ed Thelen's website. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 12 18:42:48 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: classic computer rescue squad In-Reply-To: <0qsl8xymta.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> from "Andrew K. Bressen" at Jun 12, 2007 03:50:25 PM Message-ID: <200706122342.l5CNgmcP022043@onyx.spiritone.com> > I'm seeing posts here about systems to be rescued, but often no replies. > The classic computer rescue squad pages have no listings later than 2005. > This is a high-bandwidth list that people interested in old systems > can't neccessarily keep up with. > > Could we get a seperate list going just for rescue listings, > and have either cctech or cctalk as a subscriber? That way, > folks interested only in seeing systems listings could see them > and maybe rescue systems. > > Thoughts? > > --akb I think the idea is a good one. Having said that, I think that most of the problem is that for many of these systems, those who are close enough to rescue them either don't have the room or the interest. Those who aren't close and do have interest don't have the financial means necessary or any way to arrange shipping. Plus more often than not, people trying to get rid of stuff aren't willing to take the time to ship. Zane From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jun 12 11:25:29 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:25:29 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 09:35 -0600, Richard wrote: > In article <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD at EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, > "Rod Smallwood" writes: > > > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) It would take me a good throw to hit a port with a brick from my house, but I've got a choice... Gordon (who overlooks a BAe Systems shipyard) From ed at ed-thelen.org Tue Jun 12 11:40:09 2007 From: ed at ed-thelen.org (Ed Thelen) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:40:09 -0700 Subject: PDP11/10 looking for a home Message-ID: <252501c7ad10$57a45d20$0300a8c0@TIGERTV> I have received request/permission from Richard Krasnow to post the following request ----------------------------- Hello, I have a PDP11/10 that was working fine the last time it was turned on, back in 1984 or so. It's been in my basement since. Can you advise where I might look to see if there is a museum that would like to inherit the beast? I'm in the Washington, DC area, so something nearby would save on the shipping. Thanks, Richard 301-652-6110, ext. 145 Richard Krasnow, Ph.D., Operating Director Salamandra, LLC Technical and Strategic Consulting to the Pharmaceutical Industry (c) fax 301-652-6739 ... ... From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 12 09:59:31 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:59:31 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE0@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi We have friends in the mid west (Mason City). They also seem to cover vast distances to get anywhere at all. From their description of the weather, the favored modes of transport are stagecoach in the summer and dog team in the winter. Railroads are apparently ok so long as there are no Indian raids! (sorry about that!). I think the lake ports shut in winter. My rule of thumb used to be if I can't lift it its not airfreight! Its not like the old days at DEC. If you wanted to send something (anything) to DEC Maynard say. You put it in the car took it down to the DEC shipping section at London Heathrow. They would find a box, pack it, label it up and that would be that until next morning when they would ring you to say your package had arrived at Logan and would be by the addresses desk when he got into work. (Around midday UK time). The same thing worked in reverse. One day I asked the shipping manager how things did not get held up in customs. He said "Digital is the largest employer in Massachusetts and a major contributor to the state economy" That reminds me of another story. One day they ran out of parking space at the Mill. So they decided to fill in part of the mill pond to make more space. The Maynard town council said "Heritage site no you can't" Ken Olsen said "don't worry guys I'll call the Mayor". The Mayor said "Heritage site no you can't" Ken said "ok Mr Mayor if you look out of your window in about two hours you will see the first of the moving trucks relocating every DEC site in the town elsewhere. The Mayor said "OK if you look out of your window in one hours time you will see a fleet of council trucks loaded with dirt coming to fill the pond in for you!" -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 12 June 2007 13:33 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: My sale or swap list (Update) On 6/12/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > 'has 1 cubic meter of volume and the first 1000 kilos' > That seems to be a lot of weight in a small space. Last time I checked, water was 1000 kilos per cubic meter, so the base charge seems to be centered around the density of water. > Port to port is less of a problem for me as the UK is that much > smaller than the US. > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. Indeed. Being in the mid-west, we don't think about ports much. I can drive to NYC in under 14 hours. Boston is farther. I think the closest Atlantic port, drive time, would be Baltimore at around, IIRC, 9 hours. Lake Erie ports are close (2ish hours), but would almost certainly require a shifting of the load to another vessel at an Atlantic port somewhere. -ethan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 12 14:11:16 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:11:16 +0100 Subject: Boot CD Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi In Linux land you can download an ISO image and burn a boot cd that will install a system. Does anybody know if something similar is possible with VMS? Rod From steven.hatch at hp.com Tue Jun 12 16:18:47 2007 From: steven.hatch at hp.com (Hatch, Steve) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:18:47 -0600 Subject: Nanocomputer Training System Message-ID: <4FE9E84BA419DE459D9AE1FC80E3EA25051B9500@idbexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hi, I just read your note that you just got a NBZ80 Nanocomputer. Where did you get it and how can I get one? I will give you a really good hint about what you can do about documentation. I have two books that are based entirely upon that nanocomputer. Here are the titles of those books. Actually it is Book 1 and Book 2. Name: Z-80 Microprocessor Programming and Interfacing. Authors: Elizabeth A. NIchols, Joseph C. NIchols, and Peter R. Rony Go to www.abebooks.com This is a used bookstore and they have thousands and thousands of new, used and out of print books. I know that they have some listings of these books. I had Book 2, but just got Book 1 from them. good luck. If you know where I can get another nanocomputer, I would appreciate it. steve hatch From rbazzano at alice.it Tue Jun 12 16:36:08 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:36:08 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <002601c7ad39$b50d0920$9e0bfea9@ufficio> >Anyway, from what I remeber, the controller card is based round a 6802 >processor [1]. The actual disk contorller chip, anohter 40 pin device, is >made by Fujitsu, and has the same pinout as the 1793 _apart from being >+5V supply only_. >[1] If you've got chips marked with the HP house codes (1820-xxxx >numbers, maybe soem 1818-xxxx ones), let me know what they are and I can >see if I can find the standard equivalents. Many chips on my controller have only HP house codes. In particular, there are three 40 pin chips, with codes: 1820-2099, MB8866 (this has an "F" as logo, may be it's Fujitsu or Fairchild, I don't know), and an Intel D8291A. Then there are four smaller chips (24 pins? I didn't count them...) marked: 1818-1834 and 1818-1835 (these are on sockets: may be they are roms?), and two 1818-0701. Then, the smallest chips (14-18 pins) with hp house codes are: 1820-2075 1826-0210 1820-1197 1820-1216 1820-1202 1820-1112 1820-1422 1820-2058 1820-0325. Others are standard ttl chips, with both hp house code and standard ttl code. The controller board code is 82901-66503 REV. B >That mioght be enough to get you started. Grab a 1793 data sheet and >check the clocks at the pins of the disk controller. There is probably a >proper procedure for adjusting the free-running requency of the data >separate VCO, but at this point, what you want to do is see (a) is there >a read clock and (b) is it possibly a sane frequency. I'll do it. >I can't remember much abotu the PSU in this unit. IIRC there is a >seaprate PSU PCB (and presumably you can check the outputs of that quite >easily). It's quite possible the VCO circuit needs a -ve supply line. >This might come from the main PSU, but on at least one HP controller, it >was producaed by a charge pump circuit clocked from a divided-down >version of a master clock. That might be worth looking for and checking. I've checked almost all points in the circuit, and I didn't find any -Ve supply. Also, PSU only gives +5 and +12 volt. Thank you very much. Roberto From rbazzano at alice.it Tue Jun 12 16:37:28 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:37:28 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: <200706121312.56216.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <002a01c7ad39$dfe1d950$9e0bfea9@ufficio> >I read this and for some reason the part number MB8877 comes to mind. Is >that >it by any chance? There is a MB8866 on the board. No MB8877 at all. Roberto From rbazzano at alice.it Tue Jun 12 16:38:49 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:38:49 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> >Are you 100% sure of that? I was udner the impression that the WD p[art >needed some -ve supplu rail (-12V?) and that the Fujitsu part didn't, the >pin was a N/C. The Fujistu chip will replace the WD with no problems, but >the reverse may not be true (and IIRC, the HP board that started this >doesn't have a -ve supply rail). On my board that chip has +5V and +12V on pin 40. Roberto From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue Jun 12 19:02:00 2007 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:02:00 -0700 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706121459n6745f506ob0f48962ad6ac055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01c001c7ad4e$118fa770$6501a8c0@NFORCE4> Weird Stuff Warehouse should be on your list as well. www.weirdstuff.com They aren't quite as cool as they once were, but there's still lots of fun to be had. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 3:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Visiting San Jose area Hello all - I'm heading out tomorrow on a work trip to San Jose, CA and may have about a day for some personal adventuring. Top of my list is the CHM, of course, having never been there. What other landmarks, stores, shops, signs or holes in the ground are worth seeing out that way? I will be flying, so if I pick up anything interesting I'll be paying to ship it back :) -j -- Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 12 19:17:56 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Jun 12, 2007 08:11:16 PM Message-ID: <200706130017.l5D0HuB2022834@onyx.spiritone.com> > In Linux land you can download an ISO image and burn a boot cd that > will install a system. Does > anybody know if something similar is possible with VMS? The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that an ISO image isn't really the right term as it is an ODS-2 or ODS-5 format disk, but most people will understand what you're asking. I recently created a logical disk on my VMS system, copied data to it, and then FTP'd it to my Mac where I burned it to CD and was able to access it on my VMS box. I'm not sure if you're asking about being able to burn CD's on VMS, but that is also possible, at least on Alpha and Itanium, and I believe that as of 8.3 it is part of the OS. I've not done this, as it would be more trouble to set this up than to simply FTP the file to my Mac. :^) Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 12 19:23:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:23:46 -0400 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE1@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <4AFB41C1-A2E4-4D24-8647-01F11D53EF4E@neurotica.com> On Jun 12, 2007, at 3:11 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > In Linux land you can download an ISO image and burn a boot cd > that > will install a system. Does > anybody know if something similar is possible with VMS? That's generally how it's done, yes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jun 12 19:23:19 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF East 4.0 pictures In-Reply-To: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> References: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> Message-ID: My pictures of VCF East are online: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCFEast-2007/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 19:55:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:55:22 -0700 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <002a01c7ad39$dfe1d950$9e0bfea9@ufficio> References: , <002a01c7ad39$dfe1d950$9e0bfea9@ufficio> Message-ID: <466EDE0A.25449.3FF18385@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2007 at 23:37, Roberto Bazzano wrote: > There is a MB8866 on the board. No MB8877 at all. IIRC, this is a Fujitsu FDC. Vaguely related to the WD1781, I think. Cheers, Chuck From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jun 12 21:23:13 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 19:23:13 -0700 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: <466F147E.DA545B71@cs.ubc.ca> References: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> <075D91BF-4792-427E-B71F-3B3FDC2AC8FE@typewritten.org> <466F147E.DA545B71@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Jun 12, 2007, at 2:47 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Speaking of rescues, was there any word or resolution on that > warehouse full > of stuff up here (Vancouver/Burnaby, B.C.) from a couple of weeks ago? Derek Peschel and I went up on Memorial Day. We spent about two hours there, turning over rocks. Rawn was a pleasant host, but the collection was about as I'd feared it would be: a vast bulk of highly disorganized e-waste. 50% or more of the collection was made up of Apple //e and //gs machines scavenged from public schools. If you add in fishtank Macs (almost all Plusses and Classics) that number goes up to maybe 65% or so. Of what's left, maybe 20% forms a small core of moderately interesting stuff, primarily of the "rounding out a collection" nature---possibly somewhat desireable, though nothing earth- shattering---and one relatively modern PDP-11 in a half-rack which was too buried to get more than a glance at (it might've been an / 83). The quantity of dross is so great, in my opinion, that it overwhelms any real value which may be extracted. A rough estimate puts the count at 350 //es, 200 //gses, 85 Plusses, and another 80 or so Classics. Contrast that with the single (one) ][plus I saw. I counted 15 or so C=64 machines, and maybe five power supplies. The // gses mostly have monitors, but there was a visible shortage of keyboards, mice, and disk drives. This theme repeated itself over, and over. I'm working on crunching some solid figures in terms of time, energy, bulk, potential return on investment, storage, waste disposal options, and what the Customs people are likely to do to me. Rawn has expressed disinterest in allowing cherry-picking; in fact he went so far as to mention plans to donate the lot to Bill Gates should he not find a worthy buyer. What it's boiling down to, is that I will probably make him an offer on it, but it's not likely to one he'll be excited about. I'm prepared to live with the consequences. ok bear From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jun 12 22:43:10 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 04:43:10 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. I take it you're an owner of the new Ford "Enterprise", with disc brakes and a double overhead impulse manifold.... :-) I'm in Birmingham, the nearest port would be at least three hours away at sublight speeds. TTFN - Pete. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 12 22:52:44 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:52:44 -0700 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) References: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 09:35 -0600, Richard wrote: > > "Rod Smallwood" writes: > > > > > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > > > It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) > > It would take me a good throw to hit a port with a brick from my house, > but I've got a choice... > > Gordon (who overlooks a BAe Systems shipyard) At high tide the Pacific Ocean is about 40ft from where I'm typing this. (..sorry..) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 12 22:54:07 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:54:07 -0700 Subject: dream on: equip in NORAD bunker in North Bay, Ont References: <466F0838.1291C111@cs.ubc.ca> <624966d60706121502x4b2bb362se9cc68211ed7bc36@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <466F6A5F.30076C26@cs.ubc.ca> Paul Anderson wrote: > > I worked on an ANFSQ7 (SAGE) and I believe that North Bay was the only one > still active in Canada at that time. Mike Loewen wrote: > I don't know what you saw, but North Bay definitely housed a SAGE > system at one time. Online info says that some of the equipment from > North Bay is at the Computer History Museum. > > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/TheCompMusRep/TCMR-V04.html > http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/199805/msg00023.html Interesting, I never knew that there was a SAGE (AN/FSQ7) processor in Canada, I thought they were all in those blockhouses in the States. The DEW Line was well known and publicised up here (Canada) in the 60s - if you ask anyone over 50 what the DEW Line was you'll probably get a half-sensible answer - if you ask what SAGE was you can expect a blank stare or 'that guy on the mountaintop'. This suggests it's quite likely those were SAGE consoles: very large round display tube with arrays of rectangular pushbuttons and indicators to either side of the tube, the camera shot was too quick for me to spot if the light guns were present. The gist of the news story was that the DoD had moved their operations to new aboveground digs, but was still paying for upkeep of the old underground site - along the lines of $2 million a year. Suggestions for de-acquisition or use were being considered, such as a private-sector data vault, all of which suggests the junk may well get cleared out. William Donzelli wrote: > > SAGE was the whole system - computers, radar, radios, modems and all. > > Nitpick. > > Anyway, look at Ed Thelen's website. I have seen that site in the past, I'll take another look. I realised SAGE was the whole system, not just the processors, but wasn't clear, for example, whether the DEW line was a separate system with it's own monitoring or whether the DEW line radars fed into the SAGE processors and hence part of SAGE. I get the feeling you're implying the latter. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 23:13:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 22:13:07 -0600 Subject: classic computer rescue squad In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:42:48 -0700. <200706122342.l5CNgmcP022043@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200706122342.l5CNgmcP022043 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > Having said that, I think that most of the problem is that for many of these > systems, those who are close enough to rescue them either don't have the > room or the interest. Those who aren't close and do have interest don't > have the financial means necessary or any way to arrange shipping. Plus > more often than not, people trying to get rid of stuff aren't willing to > take the time to ship. All of which is irrelevant if YOU DON'T HEAR ABOUT IT. Step one is increasing the communication to those who *can* do something. Also, I'm tired of the whining about shipping. If you want it, you will make it happen. Just ask me, Jay, Sridhar, etc. Craters & Freighters is the answer I give, although they're not always nearest the pickup location. Hell, I called them the other day about something and they were nice enough to tell me that it would be cheaper to use a local UPS store to pick up the item from the auction and ship it to me. Even though technically UPS doesn't advertise pickup and pack service, the C&F representative told me that quite a number of these locations *will* do this for you and that there are enough locations in any decent sized city that if one won't do it, chances are another one will. Now *that* is the kind of place I want to do business with -- they're honest enough to say "look, it would be more cost effective if you used these other people instead of us for that job and you'd get the same results". No way in hell do I think CTS would give me that kind of service. They'd just offer to throw me over a barrel and f*ck me without so much as giving me a kiss first. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jun 12 23:23:21 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:23:21 -0500 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <466F7139.3060600@oldskool.org> Don't forget Sopwith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopwith_%28computer_game%29 It had it's own network protocol as well. Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > Hi all-- > > I'm doing some work on promoting Netrek, and it's gotton > me interested in the following qualities: > graphical (incl. ascii graphics) > action (real-time-ish) > multiplayer, by which I mean 3 or more > wide area > on the internet > teams > leagues and guilds -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jun 12 23:24:54 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:24:54 -0500 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <466F7196.20607@oldskool.org> Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > I'm doing some work on promoting Netrek, and it's gotton > me interested in the following qualities: > graphical (incl. ascii graphics) > action (real-time-ish) > multiplayer, by which I mean 3 or more > wide area > on the internet > teams > leagues and guilds I also noticed you omitted Snipes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipes -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 13 00:27:07 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 01:27:07 -0400 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706121916.PAA23720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> (der Mouse's message of "Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:13:06 -0400 (EDT)") References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706121916.PAA23720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <0qbqfkzaok.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> >> 1973 (Fall) - Empire II on the PLATO system >> not networked, but a wide-area multiplayer action game from >> graphic terminals >> did not clock like a modern game; players called for their own >> screen updates manually der Mouse writes: > I played 0empire on PLATO sometime around '77 or so, and that > description is not quite right for the game I played: you could ask for > an update manually (and usually did, especially during firefights), but > if you just let it sit, it would refresh on a timer every once in a > while (five seconds? I forget). Oh, yeah, eventually it would redraw if you didn't call for it. But knowing when not to tie up the line with a redraw was a key game skill. From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 13 00:46:08 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 01:46:08 -0400 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> (Brian Foley's message of "Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:14:11 +0100") References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> Message-ID: <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Brian Foley writes: > There's also Bolo, a networked tank game for the BBC Micro written in > 1987. Stuart Cheshire's thesis on the subject can be read at > http://www.lgm.com/bolo/guides/dissertation/ Oh my. He built an RS-232 ring topology by breaking the normal tx/rcv pairings out to different destinations. That is so gross, yet so cool. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jun 13 00:54:47 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 22:54:47 -0700 Subject: VCF East 4.0 pictures In-Reply-To: References: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> Message-ID: <200706122254.47253.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hey Mike, Thanks for sending me a personally punched IBM card via Ken. Ken and I were working on the PDP-1 Model 30 display tonight (it needs a new HV PS and we were determining specs). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 13 00:58:00 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 01:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Oh my. He built an RS-232 ring topology by breaking the normal tx/rcv > pairings out to different destinations. > That is so gross, yet so cool. Agreed! This actually reminds me of something I've been contemplating doing: "the same thing" for twisted-pair Ethernet. That is.... For two machines, with a crossed cable, machine A's 1/2 pair goes to machine B's 3/6 pair, and conversely. But suppose you have three machines, and connect machine A's 1/2 to machine B's 3/6, B's 1/2 to C's 3/6, and C's 1/2 to A's 3/6. Obviously you'd have to set all interfaces involved half-duplex for it to have any hope of working (so each non-sending host will feed through the signal it gets to the next host in the ring)...but will it work if you do that? Clearly, too many hosts in the ring and you'll start getting late collisions and such. But it could be a similarly "gross but cool" way to run a small LAN hubless, something normally not possible with more than two machines.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From evan at snarc.net Wed Jun 13 01:05:37 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:05:37 -0400 Subject: A new Kenbak-1 replica kit Message-ID: <003901c7ad80$dce1e780$6401a8c0@evan> Howdy. Just a heads-up that Grant Stockly now has a Kenbak-1 replica available. I blogged about it: http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/5673 - Evan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 01:17:07 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:17:07 +0100 Subject: Boot CD Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Its down load image to a PC then burn CD ROM. Then boot CD on VAX. My CDROM burner may not know about ODS-2/-5 I'll check Thanks Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 13 June 2007 01:18 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Boot CD > In Linux land you can download an ISO image and burn a boot cd > that will install a system. Does anybody know if something similar is > possible with VMS? The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that an ISO image isn't really the right term as it is an ODS-2 or ODS-5 format disk, but most people will understand what you're asking. I recently created a logical disk on my VMS system, copied data to it, and then FTP'd it to my Mac where I burned it to CD and was able to access it on my VMS box. I'm not sure if you're asking about being able to burn CD's on VMS, but that is also possible, at least on Alpha and Itanium, and I believe that as of 8.3 it is part of the OS. I've not done this, as it would be more trouble to set this up than to simply FTP the file to my Mac. :^) Zane From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 13 01:32:07 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:32:07 -0400 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <466EF61A.7090303@atarimuseum.com> (curt@atarimuseum.com's message of "Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:38:02 -0400") References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <466EF61A.7090303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <0qwsy8xt3s.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > I played Conquest quite a bit on the Vax in college, that played > through the VT100 terminals with refreshing the graphics on the screen > for animation (ships turning, shots fired, etc...) We'd get like 10 > or more people on after hours in the computer labs in Manhattan and > Old Westbury and we'd essentially bring the Vax to its knee's ;-) Conquest was one of several children of PLATO Empire. You can still play; ascii or OpenGL. http://radscan.com/conquest.html (Actually, there are two completely different Empire descendents named Conquest; one is the widely-known VMS game, the other a PLATO game made by Silas Warner (Castle Wolfenstein) from the first version of Empire, which was a sort of economics game; Empire didn't become an action-oriented game until version II). Xtrek/Netrek comes from Empire as well. And Robert Woodhead of "Wizardry" fame did a version of Empire for the Apple II called "Galactic Attack". From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 13 01:54:16 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:54:16 -0400 Subject: classic computer rescue squad In-Reply-To: <200706122342.l5CNgmcP022043@onyx.spiritone.com> (Zane H. Healy's message of "Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:42:48 -0700 (PDT)") References: <200706122342.l5CNgmcP022043@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <0qodjkxs2v.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> >> Could we get a seperate list going just for rescue listings, >> and have either cctech or cctalk as a subscriber? That way, >> folks interested only in seeing systems listings could see them >> and maybe rescue systems. "Zane H. Healy" writes: > I think the idea is a good one. > > Having said that, I think that most of the problem is that for many of these > systems, those who are close enough to rescue them either don't have the > room or the interest. Those who aren't close and do have interest don't > have the financial means necessary or any way to arrange shipping. Plus > more often than not, people trying to get rid of stuff aren't willing to > take the time to ship. Sure. And we aren't going to solve those problems. But we can alleviate them by letting potential collectors more easily find out about systems and ask for help in getting them home. Jay, good to know a replacement system is "almost there". I would note that I think to be effective, it should notify in some way that doesn't require remembering to poll a web page; email or possibly ATOM/RSS if enough of us will use something so newfangled... From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 13 02:23:56 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:23:56 +0100 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004301c7ad8b$cf2ab350$2e04010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Its down load image to a PC then burn CD ROM. Then boot CD on VAX. > My CDROM burner may not know about ODS-2/-5 I'll check If you have a binary image of an ODS-2 disk you can certainly transfer it to a PC and burn it to a CD-R which you can then use to boot a VAX. I've done that. The exact way you burn it will depend on the burning software, but basically you choose the mode that says "this is a physical image, trust me and burn it block by block". I've done this plenty of times in the past. It is even possible to build a hybrid CD where there is an ODS-2 structure and an ISO9660 structure and they can even share data (files visible in both, but only stored once on the CD). Antonio From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 13 02:25:04 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:25:04 -0500 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <466F9BD0.3060807@oldskool.org> Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > Brian Foley writes: >> There's also Bolo, a networked tank game for the BBC Micro written in >> 1987. Stuart Cheshire's thesis on the subject can be read at >> http://www.lgm.com/bolo/guides/dissertation/ > > Oh my. He built an RS-232 ring topology by breaking the normal > tx/rcv pairings out to different destinations. > > That is so gross, yet so cool. Just like MIDIMaze, which used the MIDI connections in all Atari ST machines as a crude network? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_Maze -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Jun 13 05:23:47 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:23:47 -0400 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <004301c7ad8b$cf2ab350$2e04010a@uatempname> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <004301c7ad8b$cf2ab350$2e04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <200706131023.l5DANnQh009070@mail.itm-inst.com> At 03:23 AM 6/13/2007, Antonio Carlini wrote: >Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > > Its down load image to a PC then burn CD ROM. Then boot CD on VAX. > > My CDROM burner may not know about ODS-2/-5 I'll check > >If you have a binary image of an ODS-2 disk you can certainly >transfer it to a PC and burn it to a CD-R which you can then >use to boot a VAX. I've done that. The exact way you burn it will >depend on the burning software, but basically you choose the >mode that says "this is a physical image, trust me and burn it block >by block". > >I've done this plenty of times in the past. It is even possible to >build a hybrid CD where there is an ODS-2 structure and an ISO9660 >structure and they can even share data (files visible in both, but >only stored once on the CD). That's largely due to the fact that ODS-2 and base ISO9660 formats are the same (other than block sizes.) VMS Engineering apparently had a lot to do with the 9660 standard. The directory structures are the same, including an RMS file control block in the directory entry. That's also why ISO files have version numbers, just like VMS. I wrote a VMS ACP for handling ISO disks many years ago that took advantage of this. The intervening decade or so may have some of the details wrong but most of what the software did was just reblocking to cast the 2048 bit CD data into 512 bit blocks. -Rick From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 02:28:53 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:28:53 +0100 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE9@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Yes definitly existed.. Same case as a VT52. Difference may have been a) 12 x 80 b) Uppercase only c) 20mA only. Rod Smallwood DEC Terminals Product Line 1973 -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder Sent: 12 June 2007 18:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Strange VT50 Decscope >> Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever seen or heard of anything like this? Richard said: >I saw one of these for sale on ebay recently, advertised as a VT52. This is the one that was on ebay. It was listed as a VT50. It also came with the VT50 engineering prints and a VT50 manual. Ashley From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jun 13 02:03:42 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:03:42 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1181718222.25808.11.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 20:52 -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > > On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 09:35 -0600, Richard wrote: > > > "Rod Smallwood" writes: > > > > > > > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > > > > > It would take me at least 13 hours of solid driving to get to a port :-) > > > > It would take me a good throw to hit a port with a brick from my house, > > but I've got a choice... > > > > Gordon (who overlooks a BAe Systems shipyard) > > At high tide the Pacific Ocean is about 40ft from where I'm typing this. The Pacific sounds like a much nicer thing to look out onto, although the Clyde has its moment. You see some very interesting Naval ships sitting about here in the yards. My neighbours are a bit odd though. Most of the other flats on my floor seem to be full of Israeli photography students. They're very shy though; they never seem to come out much, they just sit at home playing with their cameras all day. Funny people. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jun 13 02:29:58 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:29:58 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <1181719798.25808.16.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-06-13 at 04:43 +0100, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > I take it you're an owner of the new Ford "Enterprise", with disc brakes and > a double overhead impulse manifold.... :-) > > I'm in Birmingham, the nearest port would be at least three hours away at > sublight speeds. Got to admit, I'd love to know how you can be within an hour of both Rosyth *and* Southampton... Whatever you've got, it's quicker than my XM. I want one of them ;-) Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 03:05:55 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:05:55 +0100 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FEA@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Having racked my ancient brain I think the white one might have been a "Burn in test model". DEC used to rate reliability on terminals as "XXXX Hours MTBF YY% Confidence factor". To establish a baseline they would take several hundred terminals and run them noting the failures. What this meant was that if you burned in terminals for XXXX Hours in test then you could estimate the in service MTBF to a confidence level of YY%. This was also used to estimate field service spares requirements. If the actual failure rate differed then they would alter the burn in time on the production testing. As the test models were never intended for sale they never bothered to get them silk screened. What do with a lot of unsaleable VDU's? Answer give them to your employees. Rod Smallwood DEC Terminals Product Line 1973. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder Sent: 12 June 2007 14:57 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: wacarder at usit.net Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope A couple of months ago I acquired a strange looking terminal that was said to be a VT50 Decscope. A picture of it can be found on my web site at: http://www.woffordwitch.com/VT50.asp The case looks like it was cast in pieces from a rough mold of a standard VT50. Many of the key caps are not the usual color, and look more like the key caps on the earlier VT05. I have not opened it up and studied the inside yet to see if it has the proper "guts" of a VT50. The previous owner said that he worked for DEC back in the 1970s, and they gave this "VT50" to him to use at home so that he could remotely connect to a system at work. Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have ever seen or heard of anything like this? Thanks, Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 13 07:21:12 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:21:12 +0100 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/06/2007 06:58, der Mouse wrote: > This actually reminds me of something I've been contemplating doing: > "the same thing" for twisted-pair Ethernet. That is.... > > For two machines, with a crossed cable, machine A's 1/2 pair goes to > machine B's 3/6 pair, and conversely. > > But suppose you have three machines, and connect machine A's 1/2 to > machine B's 3/6, B's 1/2 to C's 3/6, and C's 1/2 to A's 3/6. Obviously > you'd have to set all interfaces involved half-duplex for it to have > any hope of working (so each non-sending host will feed through the > signal it gets to the next host in the ring) That's not what half-duplex does. HD doesn't make each interface pass on what it receives, it just ensures that nothing is transmitted while receiving (or, if it is, that's a collision). > ...but will it work if you do that? I wouldn't expect so, without some additional software. In principle, given software support, you could pass things around like that. You'd need to use something like UDP that doesn't expect the sort of software handshaking that TCP does. It's perfectly possible to have a machine listen to the Rx side while the Tx is not connected to anything (we sometimes use that for a demo to snoop on traffic) and similarly it's possible to transmit while the receive side is connected to nothing more than a link pulse generator. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 07:49:58 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:49:58 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > I can get to most of the UK ports in an hour or two. > > I take it you're an owner of the new Ford "Enterprise", with disc brakes > and a double overhead impulse manifold.... :-) > > I'm in Birmingham, the nearest port would be at least three hours away > at sublight speeds. Isn't Bristol only about 85 miles down the road? Peace... Sridhar From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 13 08:23:07 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:23:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bitmap images Message-ID: <938407.43226.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, i was reading up on bitmap (mainly .bmp, with some .wbmp) images last night and was wondering why everything is stored backwards (e.g. BGR instead of RGB and the bottom of the image first, instead of the top)? Also would i need to pay a license if i wrote a program to create .bmp files? My main aim is to write a .bmp to (amiga) .iff format, but would love to add full .bmp support to an art program i wrote for the amiga and then stick it online (on Aminet.com ) for other people to use if they wish. - Andrew B (via mobile phone) --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Yes definitly existed.. > Same case as a VT52. > Difference may have been > > a) 12 x 80 > b) Uppercase only > c) 20mA only. > > Rod Smallwood > DEC Terminals Product Line 1973 > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder > Sent: 12 June 2007 18:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Strange VT50 Decscope > > >> Are there any former DEC employees (or anyone else) here who have > ever seen or heard of anything like this? > > Richard said: > >I saw one of these for sale on ebay recently, advertised as a VT52. > > > This is the one that was on ebay. It was listed as a VT50. It also > came with the VT50 engineering prints and a VT50 manual. > > Ashley > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 08:55:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:55:47 -0400 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> References: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 6/12/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. I still have a Weirdstuff poster/calendar up in my office from my 1994 visit. > If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my shop > (although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile away. > Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) There's a chance I could end up visiting LBNL later this summer - I'll have to remember to mention when I'm going. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 09:11:24 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:11:24 -0700 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 6/12/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>Evan Koblentz wrote: >> > Go to Weirdstuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale. > >I still have a Weirdstuff poster/calendar up in my office from my 1994 >visit. > >>If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my shop >>(although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile away. >>Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) > >There's a chance I could end up visiting LBNL later this summer - I'll >have to remember to mention when I'm going. > >-ethan Hi I know I'm a little late but it is worth stopping by at HSC and if you need parts and such also Anchor Electronics. Not a lot of classic stuff but I do recall that Anchor had a couple of old S-100 board kits for things like RAM boards. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 13 09:01:28 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200706131411.KAA13530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> But suppose you have three machines, and connect machine A's 1/2 to >> machine B's 3/6, B's 1/2 to C's 3/6, and C's 1/2 to A's 3/6. >> Obviously you'd have to set all interfaces involved half-duplex for >> it to have any hope of working (so each non-sending host will feed >> through the signal it gets to the next host in the ring) > That's not what half-duplex does. HD doesn't make each interface > pass on what it receives, it just ensures that nothing is transmitted > while receiving (or, if it is, that's a collision). ...oh. I thought half-duplex was basically shared-bus Ethernet - that all pairs in a collision domain would be carrying the same signal. Clearly this was more unfounded speculation than reality. :( Hmm. I wonder what would happen if you connect A and B's TX pairs and C's RX pair together, and similarly for B/C TX and A RX, and C/A TX and B RX. Probably nothing (or at least nothing useful). Oh well. Annoying; it looked like a simple "poor man's token ring" setup. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 13 10:37:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:37:51 -0700 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>, <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>, <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <466FACDF.2208.431972B8@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2007 at 1:58, der Mouse wrote: > This actually reminds me of something I've been contemplating doing: > "the same thing" for twisted-pair Ethernet. That is.... > > For two machines, with a crossed cable, machine A's 1/2 pair goes to > machine B's 3/6 pair, and conversely. Before I picked up my first ISA ethernet cards and started stringing coax, I used two products under MS-DOS 2.1 and 3.3, "The $25 Network" and "The Invisible Network". The first was strictly RS-232; the second could also use printer ports and dedicated cards. Not like Laplink, but full "always-on" networking. Very primitive--whole drive letter and printer sharing only, with no selective access. I still have a 2P+2S ISA card that populated the machines that I chained together. I don't remember too much about the setup, only that it worked pretty well. I stll have the software and manuals. The MS-DOS networking hooks were pretty handy, particularly when it came to hosting foreign filesystems. CD-ROM access is accomplished that way, IIRC. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 13 11:14:46 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:14:46 -0600 Subject: manualsplus.com has 50% off all manuals right now Message-ID: I just received email from the people running this business I mentioned the other day . They are in the process of trying to sell off the business, so they are currently selling all manuals at 50% off. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fryers at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 11:31:58 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:31:58 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> Message-ID: G'Day, On 13/06/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ensor wrote: > > I'm in Birmingham, the nearest port would be at least three hours away > > at sublight speeds. > > Isn't Bristol only about 85 miles down the road? Yes - approx 90 minutes from the outskirts when the traffic is good... I suspect getting out of Birmingham is the problem. I am not sure how much freight now travels to/from the Bristol ports. I don't think it is that much but am willing to be proved wrong. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From thorh at ismennt.is Wed Jun 13 12:36:58 2007 From: thorh at ismennt.is (Thorhallur Ragnarsson) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:36:58 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Visiting Las Vegas and Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706121459n6745f506ob0f48962ad6ac055@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730706121459n6745f506ob0f48962ad6ac055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36458.172.16.3.169.1181756218.squirrel@clear.vefpostur.skyrr.is> Hello all. Been a long time lurker on cctalk, now visiting US for the first time, I?ll be staying in Las Vegas and Minneapolis for a few days with some unsheduled time. The lights on Las Vegas Blvd. may look OK, but I?m more interested in the other kind of Blinkenlights :-) Are there any places I should seek out related to classic computing or electronics in general? Best regards. Thorhallur Ragnarsson From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 12:41:54 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:41:54 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46702C62.4050505@gmail.com> Simon Fryer wrote: > I am not sure how much freight now travels to/from the Bristol ports. > I don't think it is that much but am willing to be proved wrong. If you can get a ship willing to haul it, many of those old mothballed non-containerized piers are still happy for the business. At least, here in the US. Peace... Sridhar From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 13:09:56 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:09:56 -0500 Subject: Visiting San Jose area In-Reply-To: <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> References: <001c01c7ad3e$29c5b970$6401a8c0@evan> <466F1C9E.8000700@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730706131109v5b8877a5oe876b0945f319150@mail.gmail.com> On 6/12/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > If you end up going to Weirdstuff, let me know and you can visit my shop > (although it's a mess right now). It's about 3/4 of a mile away. > Lots-o-big DEC machines. :-) Hey, great, thanks for the tips. I won't have free time until Saturday (or Friday night maybe) but I'll check it out. -j From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 13 15:35:48 2007 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:35:48 -0400 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <200706131023.l5DANnQh009070@mail.itm-inst.com> (Rick Murphy's message of "Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:23:47 -0400") References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <004301c7ad8b$cf2ab350$2e04010a@uatempname> <200706131023.l5DANnQh009070@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <0qhcpby4m3.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Rick Murphy writes: > I wrote a VMS ACP for handling ISO disks many years ago that took > advantage of this. The intervening decade or so may have some of the > details wrong but most of what the software did was just reblocking to > cast the 2048 bit CD data into 512 bit blocks. Yeah, important point original poster may need to know: many VMS systems need cd-rom drives that can do 512 bit blocks. Many early scsi cd-roms don't do 512 bit blocks, so try to make sure the one you're trying to use can do this. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 13 15:43:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:43:25 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <46702C62.4050505@gmail.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> <46702C62.4050505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <467056ED.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Simon Fryer wrote: >> I am not sure how much freight now travels to/from the Bristol ports. >> I don't think it is that much but am willing to be proved wrong. > > If you can get a ship willing to haul it, many of those old mothballed > non-containerized piers are still happy for the business. At least, > here in the US. I hope that is just a passing comment about shipping ... or was he adding to his collection ??? :) > Peace... Sridhar My feeling if you realy want it ... shipping is not a problem. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 09:08:55 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:08:55 +0100 Subject: Boot CD Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FF5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Minor intervening problem. 1. Turn off VAX 4000-200 2. Install KZQSA in first free slot. 3. Leave terminator on KZQSA SCSI output connector. 4. Power up system. 5. Wait for self test -> no problems. 6. >>> SHOW DEV -> Nothing new there. 7. >>> SHOW QBUS -> Nothing new there. 8. >>> CONFIGURE -> device,number -> KZQSA,1 9. Reboot 10. Wait for self test -> no problems. 11. >>> SHOW DEV -> Nothing new there. 12. >>> SHOW QBUS -> Nothing new there. 13. ???????????????? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: 13 June 2007 11:24 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Boot CD At 03:23 AM 6/13/2007, Antonio Carlini wrote: >Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > > Its down load image to a PC then burn CD ROM. Then boot CD on VAX. > > My CDROM burner may not know about ODS-2/-5 I'll check > >If you have a binary image of an ODS-2 disk you can certainly transfer >it to a PC and burn it to a CD-R which you can then use to boot a VAX. >I've done that. The exact way you burn it will depend on the burning >software, but basically you choose the mode that says "this is a >physical image, trust me and burn it block by block". > >I've done this plenty of times in the past. It is even possible to >build a hybrid CD where there is an ODS-2 structure and an ISO9660 >structure and they can even share data (files visible in both, but only >stored once on the CD). That's largely due to the fact that ODS-2 and base ISO9660 formats are the same (other than block sizes.) VMS Engineering apparently had a lot to do with the 9660 standard. The directory structures are the same, including an RMS file control block in the directory entry. That's also why ISO files have version numbers, just like VMS. I wrote a VMS ACP for handling ISO disks many years ago that took advantage of this. The intervening decade or so may have some of the details wrong but most of what the software did was just reblocking to cast the 2048 bit CD data into 512 bit blocks. -Rick From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 11:12:02 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:12:02 +0100 Subject: Boot CD Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FF6@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Here's my ROM Burner ImgBurn supports a wide range of image file formats - including BIN, DI, DVD, GI, IMG, ISO, MDS, NRG and PDI. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: 13 June 2007 11:24 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Boot CD At 03:23 AM 6/13/2007, Antonio Carlini wrote: >Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > > Its down load image to a PC then burn CD ROM. Then boot CD on VAX. > > My CDROM burner may not know about ODS-2/-5 I'll check > >If you have a binary image of an ODS-2 disk you can certainly transfer >it to a PC and burn it to a CD-R which you can then use to boot a VAX. >I've done that. The exact way you burn it will depend on the burning >software, but basically you choose the mode that says "this is a >physical image, trust me and burn it block by block". > >I've done this plenty of times in the past. It is even possible to >build a hybrid CD where there is an ODS-2 structure and an ISO9660 >structure and they can even share data (files visible in both, but only >stored once on the CD). That's largely due to the fact that ODS-2 and base ISO9660 formats are the same (other than block sizes.) VMS Engineering apparently had a lot to do with the 9660 standard. The directory structures are the same, including an RMS file control block in the directory entry. That's also why ISO files have version numbers, just like VMS. I wrote a VMS ACP for handling ISO disks many years ago that took advantage of this. The intervening decade or so may have some of the details wrong but most of what the software did was just reblocking to cast the 2048 bit CD data into 512 bit blocks. -Rick From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 12:07:48 2007 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:07:48 +0000 Subject: Viatron System 21 on eBay (US only) Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330130310578 Obvious question - just what is a Viatron System 21? Hard to believe it is a computer, there is very little information on the web after a quick Google search. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ Win tickets to the sold out Live Earth concert! http://liveearth.uk.msn.com From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 12:13:19 2007 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:13:19 +0000 Subject: Blank S-100 prototype boards for sale Message-ID: Hi, I have a few of these for sale, priced $9 / ?5 each plus postage from the UK. These are blank boards, there are 100 gold plated fingers with a short track leading to a pad with a hole. The rest of the board (glass fibre) is bare, so no power rails etc, so you have to drill and fit sockets or components and wire-wrap them together. Please mention 'classiccmp' when replying. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 13:53:29 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:53:29 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - Part 2 Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FF8@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> .. 14) Locate brain.. 15) Jumpers? Surely not? Always factory default 16) Power down 17) Remove KZQSA 18) Call up jumper settings from web. 19) Cross check and.. yup one set not default. 20) Set to default. 21) Put board back in system 22) Power up 23) Choose 4 for language 24) at >>> Type SHOW QBUS 25) Hallelujah!! -> 200002C0 (761300) = 0000 KZQSA 26) Type SHOW DEV 27) SCSI Adapter 0 (761300), SCSI ID 7 -DKA100 (YAMAHA CRW4416S) Hell, it even read the firmware in the drive!!! Rod From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 13 15:54:45 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:54:45 +0100 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FF5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <002f01c7adfd$13eba550$0404010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > > 6. >>> SHOW DEV -> Nothing new there. > 7. >>> SHOW QBUS -> Nothing new there. What _is_ there? CONFIGURE doesn't actually _configure_ anything. You tell it which devices you want and it tells you what to set the CSRs and vectors to. What do you have in each slot? Do you have a terminator in _each_ of the two KZQSA ports? For some reason Manx doesn't show a link for the KZQSA installation guide - I do have it in PDF form and I can email it to you if that would help. Antonio From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Jun 13 16:08:36 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 13 Jun 2007 14:08:36 -0700 Subject: Boot CD In-Reply-To: <0qhcpby4m3.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FE7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <004301c7ad8b$cf2ab350$2e04010a@uatempname> <200706131023.l5DANnQh009070@mail.itm-inst.com> <0qhcpby4m3.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <1181768915.46705cd38c9d9@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting "Andrew K. Bressen" : > > Rick Murphy writes: > > I wrote a VMS ACP for handling ISO disks many years ago that took > > advantage of this. The intervening decade or so may have some of the > > details wrong but most of what the software did was just reblocking > to > > cast the 2048 bit CD data into 512 bit blocks. > > Yeah, important point original poster may need to know: > many VMS systems need cd-rom drives that can do 512 bit blocks. > Many early SCSI cd-roms don't do 512 bit blocks, so try to make > sure the one you're trying to use can do this. Some TEAC SCSI cd-rom drives, all Plextor SCSI cd-rom drives and some Toshiba SCSI cd-rom drives (sun used Toshiba SCSI drives) can be jumpered for (or in the case of the Toshiba) a trace or 2 cut at a location specifically for the purpose From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 13 16:12:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:12:30 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:43:25 -0600. <467056ED.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <467056ED.2030406 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > My feeling if you realy want it ... shipping is not a problem. As someone who just spend quite a bit of money to get that CDC PLATO terminal sent to me from the UK, I agree. However, I don't know what else would entice me to purchase from the UK again. It was painful. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 13 16:14:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:14:30 -0600 Subject: Viatron System 21 on eBay (US only) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:07:48 -0000. Message-ID: In article , "John S" writes: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330130310578 > > Obvious question - just what is a Viatron System 21? Hard to believe it is a > computer, there is very little information on the web after a quick Google > search. Dunno, but I'm not going to up against Al for it :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jun 13 17:02:46 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:02:46 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706131502xd1139d3wd8a1a0cff0125a17@mail.gmail.com> On 13/06/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > > Gordon (who overlooks a BAe Systems shipyard) > > At high tide the Pacific Ocean is about 40ft from where I'm typing this. We're about miles inland, but the nerest port is a mile away.. (courtasy of the Manchester Ship Canal..) As a rough idea on the sort of charges for shipping, this is a quote I was given as a non-business customer China->UK about 2 years ago. Obviously prices will have changed but might give an idea of what sorts of things are charged: LCL ex FOB Shenzhen quay to delivered Salford - non hazardous cargo Seafreight $45.00w/m or minimum 1000kgs or 1cbm whichever is the greatest UK THC GBP46.90w/2 or minimum Documentation GBP25.00 Port security GBP3.00 UK customs GBP35.00 up to 3 tariff headings UK haulage Up to 1000kgs GBP84.00 per 1000kgs or part there of @ a conversion of 2.25m3 = 1000kgs 1001-2000kgs GBP78.00 2001-3000kgs GBP70.00 3001-4000kgs GBP65.00 4001-5000KGS GBP60.00 Weekly service - transit time 21 days quay to quay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 13 17:22:15 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:22:15 -0600 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70706131502xd1139d3wd8a1a0cff0125a17@mail.gmail.com> References: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> <2f806cd70706131502xd1139d3wd8a1a0cff0125a17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46706E17.9030606@jetnet.ab.ca> Rob wrote: > As a rough idea on the sort of charges for shipping, this is a quote I > was given as a non-business customer China->UK about 2 years ago. > Obviously prices will have changed but might give an idea of what > sorts of things are charged: > > > LCL ex FOB Shenzhen quay to delivered Salford - non hazardous cargo Are you sure non-hazardous ??? Ask anybody who has tried to move one. :) If GBP is short for the British Pound I see shipping is cheap compared to the paperwork. Now if we can get a Chinese company to make PDP-11's we have got it made. > > Seafreight $45.00w/m or minimum 1000kgs or 1cbm whichever is the > greatest > UK THC GBP46.90w/2 or minimum > Documentation GBP25.00 > Port security GBP3.00 > UK customs GBP35.00 up to 3 tariff headings > UK haulage Up to 1000kgs GBP84.00 > per 1000kgs or part there of @ a conversion of 2.25m3 = 1000kgs > 1001-2000kgs GBP78.00 > 2001-3000kgs GBP70.00 > 3001-4000kgs GBP65.00 > 4001-5000KGS GBP60.00 > > > Weekly service - transit time 21 days quay to quay > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 13 16:47:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:47:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <002601c7ad39$b50d0920$9e0bfea9@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 12, 7 11:36:08 pm Message-ID: > > >Anyway, from what I remeber, the controller card is based round a 6802 > >processor [1]. The actual disk contorller chip, anohter 40 pin device, is > >made by Fujitsu, and has the same pinout as the 1793 _apart from being > >+5V supply only_. > >[1] If you've got chips marked with the HP house codes (1820-xxxx > >numbers, maybe soem 1818-xxxx ones), let me know what they are and I can > >see if I can find the standard equivalents. > > Many chips on my controller have only HP house codes. > In particular, there are three 40 pin chips, with codes: 1820-2099, MB8866 1820-2099 = MC6802P Microprocessor MB8866 is not a house-code, it's a Fujitsu disk controller chip > (this has an "F" as logo, may be it's Fujitsu or Fairchild, I don't know), > and an Intel D8291A. 8291 = HPIB interface chip (also not a house-code) > Then there are four smaller chips (24 pins? I didn't count them...) marked: > 1818-1834 and 1818-1835 (these are on sockets: may be they are roms?), and I think those are the firmware ROMs > two 1818-0701. 1818-0701 = MCM68A10P 128 byte static RAM > Then, the smallest chips (14-18 pins) with hp house codes are: I'll fill these in on the same lines > 1820-2075 = 74LS245 (that has 20 pins, surely) > 1826-0210 = LM361 > 1820-1197 = 74LS00 > 1820-1216 = 74LS138 > 1820-1202 = 74LS10 > 1820-1112 = 74LS74 > 1820-1422 = 74LS122 > 1820-2058 = MC3448L (HPIB buffer chip) > 1820-0325.= MC815P [...] > >This might come from the main PSU, but on at least one HP controller, it > >was producaed by a charge pump circuit clocked from a divided-down > >version of a master clock. That might be worth looking for and checking. > > I've checked almost all points in the circuit, and I didn't find any -Ve > supply. Also, PSU only gives +5 and +12 volt. Yes, but if the -ve supply circuit has failed, you won't find it :-) I am pretty sure I have one of these, or something closely related. If you get stuck, I can be convinced to find it, pull the covers and do some tests. -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 18:59:25 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Visiting Las Vegas and Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <36458.172.16.3.169.1181756218.squirrel@clear.vefpostur.skyrr.is> Message-ID: <436260.49708.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The "Atomic Testing Museum" in Las Vegas is interesting... http://www.atomictestingmuseum.org/ Thorhallur Ragnarsson wrote: Hello all. Been a long time lurker on cctalk, now visiting US for the first time, I?ll be staying in Las Vegas and Minneapolis for a few days with some unsheduled time. The lights on Las Vegas Blvd. may look OK, but I?m more interested in the other kind of Blinkenlights :-) Are there any places I should seek out related to classic computing or electronics in general? Best regards. Thorhallur Ragnarsson --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 21:07:11 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:07:11 -0400 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <467056ED.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> <46702C62.4050505@gmail.com> <467056ED.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4670A2CF.7000102@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Simon Fryer wrote: >>> I am not sure how much freight now travels to/from the Bristol ports. >>> I don't think it is that much but am willing to be proved wrong. >> >> If you can get a ship willing to haul it, many of those old mothballed >> non-containerized piers are still happy for the business. At least, >> here in the US. > > I hope that is just a passing comment about shipping ... > or was he adding to his collection ??? :) I have no idea what he's doing specifically, but I was just making an observation that you can get a cargo ship to put into many old ports that are otherwise closed. Peace... Sridhar From onymouse at garlic.com Wed Jun 13 08:02:41 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:02:41 -0700 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> References: <003001c7ad3a$102e59d0$9e0bfea9@ufficio> Message-ID: <466FEAF1.7050809@garlic.com> Roberto Bazzano wrote: > > On my board that chip has +5V and +12V on pin 40. > Did HP||WD||Fujitsu patent that? I sure could use it in the car. I'd rather not run additional wire for +5V. Will it work with high voltage too? I've always wanted to put a 51J-4 in my car. == jd "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jun 14 00:18:48 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:18:48 -0400 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <466EDE0A.25449.3FF18385@cclist.sydex.com> References: <002a01c7ad39$dfe1d950$9e0bfea9@ufficio> <466EDE0A.25449.3FF18385@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706140118.49213.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 12 June 2007 20:55, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Jun 2007 at 23:37, Roberto Bazzano wrote: > > There is a MB8866 on the board. No MB8877 at all. > > IIRC, this is a Fujitsu FDC. Vaguely related to the WD1781, I think. I've never heard of the 178x parts, only 177x and 179x. What's that one all about? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 13 23:42:58 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 05:42:58 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> OK ... 1. I'm ready to burn a VMS image onto a CD 2. Nero and imgBurn wont read the image file. 3. What s needed is a Burner program tha will run on a Windows 2000 system and prduce a VMS bootable CD. 4. Suggection for a ROM burning program that: a) Will run under Windows 2000 b) Produce a cd that is Bootable on a VAX 4000/200 or 300. Rod From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 14 01:29:38 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:29:38 -0700 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: At 5:42 AM +0100 6/14/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > 2. Nero and imgBurn wont read the image file. I'm pretty sure Nero can, though it's been several years since I've done anything with it, and I normally use Toast. I've yet to find anything I want to do that Nero can't (other than Mac CD's). You don't want to *read* the file, you want to burn it to the CD. The trick is determining the correct incantation. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 14 02:19:46 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:19:46 +0100 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706131411.KAA13530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> <200706131411.KAA13530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4670EC12.8050505@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/06/2007 15:01, der Mouse wrote: > ...oh. I thought half-duplex was basically shared-bus Ethernet - that > all pairs in a collision domain would be carrying the same signal. 'Fraid not :-( > Hmm. I wonder what would happen if you connect A and B's TX pairs and > C's RX pair together, and similarly for B/C TX and A RX, and C/A TX and > B RX. As you wrote, nothing useful. You can connect one Tx pair to several Rx pairs. I don't know how many, I've only ever tried connecting one extra Rx pair. I don't know about connecting two or more Tx pairs together, though. You'd end up with collisions, undetected by the transmitters, and I don't know if 10baseT transmitters can handle that. Anyway, what you're suggesting would connect all the Tx pairs together (A to B, then B to C). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 14 02:41:05 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:41:05 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004601c7ae57$5ed5b4c0$0404010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > 2. Nero and imgBurn wont read the image file. I'm sure I used Nero when I did this. I'm also sure that if ImgBurn ("Image Burn") cannot do it then it should be renamed :-) I think the sequence with Nero is something like: Start->Programs->wherever Nero Burning ROM lives Cancel the initial screen that helps you determine whether you are burning a CD or DVD or whatever Recorder->Burn Image Select "All Files" (make sure yours is called .img or .bin) On the "Foreign Image Settings" leave it as "Data Mode 1" and tick "Raw Data" Try a CD-RW until you find the right incantation. I would download one of the Freeware CDs from the HP VMS website and try that image, so at least you know you have a good ODS-2 image at the start. An RRD42 will not (IIRC) cope with a CD-RW ... so you may need to use the Yamaha to start with (assuming it will). Antonio From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 14 02:39:37 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 03:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <4670EC12.8050505@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> <200706131411.KAA13530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4670EC12.8050505@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200706140743.DAA27254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Hmm. I wonder what would happen if you connect A and B's TX pairs >> and C's RX pair together, and similarly for B/C TX and A RX, and C/A >> TX and B RX. > I don't know about connecting two or more Tx pairs together, though. > You'd end up with collisions, undetected by the transmitters, and I > don't know if 10baseT transmitters can handle that. They must be able to at least tolerate it without frying; that's basically what you get if you connect two hosts with a straight cable - or a host and hub with a crossed cable - so there'd be a lot of toasted hardware if it weren't at least relatively harmless. > Anyway, what you're suggesting would connect all the Tx pairs > together (A to B, then B to C). Doh! Of course. Oh well. So much for cheap pseudo-token-ring Ethernets. :-/ /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 14 03:50:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:50:23 -0700 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <200706140118.49213.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <466EDE0A.25449.3FF18385@cclist.sydex.com>, <200706140118.49213.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46709EDF.6583.46CABC32@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jun 2007 at 1:18, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 12 June 2007 20:55, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12 Jun 2007 at 23:37, Roberto Bazzano wrote: > > > There is a MB8866 on the board. No MB8877 at all. > > > > IIRC, this is a Fujitsu FDC. Vaguely related to the WD1781, I think. > > I've never heard of the 178x parts, only 177x and 179x. What's that one all > about? Scarce (or maybe scarcer) than hen's teeth. It's basically a 1771 wired to handle MFM codes. I've got a couple, believe it or not. It'd be interesting to see if the MB8866 is anything like that. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 14 03:55:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:55:49 -0700 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706140743.DAA27254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>, <4670EC12.8050505@dunnington.plus.com>, <200706140743.DAA27254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4670A025.30377.46CFB7A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jun 2007 at 3:39, der Mouse wrote: > They must be able to at least tolerate it without frying; that's > basically what you get if you connect two hosts with a straight cable - > or a host and hub with a crossed cable - so there'd be a lot of toasted > hardware if it weren't at least relatively harmless. > > > Anyway, what you're suggesting would connect all the Tx pairs > > together (A to B, then B to C). > > Doh! Of course. Oh well. So much for cheap pseudo-token-ring > Ethernets. :-/ Er, isn't what you're suggesting very akin to RS-485? Cheers, Chuck From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Jun 14 04:34:18 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:34:18 +0100 Subject: My sale or swap list (Update) In-Reply-To: <46706E17.9030606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1181665529.5589.4.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <466F6A0D.57FDE2AD@cs.ubc.ca> <2f806cd70706131502xd1139d3wd8a1a0cff0125a17@mail.gmail.com> <46706E17.9030606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706140234w5f6bf26en99a021ae72bbabb0@mail.gmail.com> On 13/06/07, woodelf wrote: > Rob wrote: > > LCL ex FOB Shenzhen quay to delivered Salford - non hazardous cargo > > Are you sure non-hazardous ??? Ask anybody who has tried to move one. :) LOL.. > If GBP is short for the British Pound I see shipping is cheap compared > to the paperwork. Now if we can get a Chinese company to make PDP-11's > we have got it made. In my admittedly limited experience, they seem quite willing to make anything you want, provided you are prepared to order in sufficient quantities.. So just go create a market for 100,000 pdp-11 clones, and you're away ;-) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 14 04:50:15 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:50:15 +0100 Subject: networked games 1972 to 1988 In-Reply-To: <200706140743.DAA27254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0q8xap10fm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070612191411.GA25882@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> <0q7iq8z9sv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200706130603.CAA10012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <466FE138.30309@dunnington.plus.com> <200706131411.KAA13530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4670EC12.8050505@dunnington.plus.com> <200706140743.DAA27254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46710F57.90100@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/06/2007 08:39, der Mouse wrote: >> You'd end up with collisions, undetected by the transmitters, and I >> don't know if 10baseT transmitters can handle that. > They must be able to at least tolerate it without frying; that's > basically what you get if you connect two hosts with a straight cable - > or a host and hub with a crossed cable - so there'd be a lot of toasted > hardware if it weren't at least relatively harmless. Of course -- in my eagerness to reply I forgot that minor detail! >> Anyway, what you're suggesting would connect all the Tx pairs >> together (A to B, then B to C). > > Doh! Of course. Oh well. So much for cheap pseudo-token-ring > Ethernets. :-/ You can still do it, so long as you write something to handle the tokens and avoid things like TCP handshaking. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rbazzano at alice.it Thu Jun 14 04:56:19 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:56:19 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive Message-ID: <003a01c7ae6a$4acb1ca0$0a03010a@ufficio> > 1820-2075 = 74LS245 (that has 20 pins, surely) > 1826-0210 = LM361 > 1820-1197 = 74LS00 > 1820-1216 = 74LS138 > 1820-1202 = 74LS10 > 1820-1112 = 74LS74 > 1820-1422 = 74LS122 > 1820-2058 = MC3448L (HPIB buffer chip) > 1820-0325.= MC815P Wow!!!! Thank you!! This really simplify the task to understand what's wrong and replace a chip if needed. I'm just curious about two things: first, are this hp house codes generic (i.e. valid for any product), or are they related to this controller only? second, where do you find these valuable informations?!?!? ;-)) >> I've checked almost all points in the circuit, and I didn't find any -Ve >> supply. Also, PSU only gives +5 and +12 volt. >Yes, but if the -ve supply circuit has failed, you won't find it :-) Oh, yes, that's true... ;-) >I am pretty sure I have one of these, or something closely related. If >you get stuck, I can be convinced to find it, pull the covers and do some >tests. Ok, I'll let you know. In the meantime, maybe I've found a complete service manual for the drive. I'm waiting for it. Thank you. Roberto From rbazzano at alice.it Thu Jun 14 04:56:58 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:56:58 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive Message-ID: <003e01c7ae6a$6247d670$0a03010a@ufficio> >Scarce (or maybe scarcer) than hen's teeth. It's basically a 1771 >wired to handle MFM codes. I've got a couple, believe it or not. >It'd be interesting to see if the MB8866 is anything like that. Unfortunately I didn't find any datasheet for it. Anyone? Thx. Roberto From james at machineroom.info Thu Jun 14 05:43:19 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:43:19 +0100 Subject: Viatron System 21 on eBay (US only) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46711BC7.1060101@machineroom.info> Richard wrote: > In article , > "John S" writes: > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330130310578 >> >> Obvious question - just what is a Viatron System 21? Hard to believe it is a >> computer, there is very little information on the web after a quick Google >> search. > > Dunno, but I'm not going to up against Al for it :-) Al, of course, has docs on line! (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/viatron/) In summary, 16 bit CPU built from LSI/MOS parts, 4 or 8 K words core memory. Cool :-) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 10:20:21 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:20:21 +0100 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: References: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> <075D91BF-4792-427E-B71F-3B3FDC2AC8FE@typewritten.org> <466F147E.DA545B71@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0706140820y1d54d6b6ge1defa0192929c26@mail.gmail.com> On 13/06/07, r.stricklin wrote: > > On Jun 12, 2007, at 2:47 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Speaking of rescues, was there any word or resolution on that > > warehouse full > > of stuff up here (Vancouver/Burnaby, B.C.) from a couple of weeks ago? > > Derek Peschel and I went up on Memorial Day. We spent about two hours > there, turning over rocks. Rawn was a pleasant host, but the > collection was about as I'd feared it would be: a vast bulk of highly > disorganized e-waste. 50% or more of the collection was made up of > Apple //e and //gs machines Aren't IIgs machines still in some demand? I know I've always wanted one and I think I know several others who do, too... Not enough to pay international shipping, mind you! -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 14 10:26:54 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:26:54 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FFC@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706141126.54328.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 14 June 2007 00:42, Rod Smallwood wrote: > 4. Suggection for a ROM burning program that: > > a) Will run under Windows 2000 > > b) Produce a cd that is Bootable on a > VAX 4000/200 or 300. Use cdrecord. There's a cdrecord that runs inside of cygwin on windows... http://smithii.com/cdrtools (None of that GUI crap or trademark Windows "helpfulness" to get int the way). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Jun 14 10:02:11 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:02:11 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023001@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Yes I got past that afer a bit of trying. I have both Ricoh and ASUS DVD and CD R/RW Drives I had to change the extension from .img to .nrg as raw data or not Nero would not look at either of my drives as .img is not supported. It asks about block sizes around 2k. VMS CD are 512. My first attempt did not boot. I'll try again to-night Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 14 June 2007 08:41 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Boot CD - The last LAP Rod Smallwood wrote: > 2. Nero and imgBurn wont read the image file. I'm sure I used Nero when I did this. I'm also sure that if ImgBurn ("Image Burn") cannot do it then it should be renamed :-) I think the sequence with Nero is something like: Start->Programs->wherever Nero Burning ROM lives Cancel the initial screen that helps you determine whether you are burning a CD or DVD or whatever Recorder->Burn Image Select "All Files" (make sure yours is called .img or .bin) On the "Foreign Image Settings" leave it as "Data Mode 1" and tick "Raw Data" Try a CD-RW until you find the right incantation. I would download one of the Freeware CDs from the HP VMS website and try that image, so at least you know you have a good ODS-2 image at the start. An RRD42 will not (IIRC) cope with a CD-RW ... so you may need to use the Yamaha to start with (assuming it will). Antonio From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 14 10:38:25 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:38:25 -0400 Subject: Viatron System 21 on eBay (US only) Message-ID: <0JJM00I20U2Q8RT0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Viatron System 21 on eBay (US only) > From: James > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:43:19 +0100 > To: General at address.invalid, "Discussion at address.invalid":On-Topic Posts Only > > >Richard wrote: >> In article , >> "John S" writes: >> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330130310578 >>> >>> Obvious question - just what is a Viatron System 21? Hard to believe it is a >>> computer, there is very little information on the web after a quick Google >>> search. >> >> Dunno, but I'm not going to up against Al for it :-) > >Al, of course, has docs on line! (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/viatron/) > >In summary, 16 bit CPU built from LSI/MOS parts, 4 or 8 K words core >memory. Cool :-) It's been 29 years since I've seen one. One of the LICA (LI computer assoc, LI NY) had one and brought it in. Impressive for it's time when an AMD EV68 (6800 based single board system) was a very big deal. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 11:12:46 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:12:46 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023001@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023001@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: On 6/14/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Yes I got past that afer a bit of trying. > I have both Ricoh and ASUS DVD and CD R/RW Drives > I had to change the extension from .img to .nrg as raw data or not > Nero would not look at either of my drives as .img is not supported. The joy of operating systems with enforced filename extensions. :-P > It asks about block sizes around 2k. VMS CD are 512. That will be the key - to get whatever tool you use to write 512-byte blocks, not 2048-byte blocks. As I am not a regular Windows user, I can't suggest any Windows tools, but you have, I think, identified the crux of your requirements - user-specifiable block size. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 14 11:31:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:31:17 -0600 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:20:21 +0100. <575131af0706140820y1d54d6b6ge1defa0192929c26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <575131af0706140820y1d54d6b6ge1defa0192929c26 at mail.gmail.com>, "Liam Proven" writes: > Aren't IIgs machines still in some demand? They sell OK, but they are extremely common on ebay. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 14 11:35:40 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:35:40 -0400 Subject: 1000+ old computer in Canada, for sale References: <465732A0.D1422A6@cs.ubc.ca> <075D91BF-4792-427E-B71F-3B3FDC2AC8FE@typewritten.org> <466F147E.DA545B71@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0706140820y1d54d6b6ge1defa0192929c26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201c7aea2$0c389c00$0b01a8c0@game> > Aren't IIgs machines still in some demand? I know I've always wanted > one and I think I know several others who do, too... > > Not enough to pay international shipping, mind you! > There was a flood of the systems out there from schools who finally ditched them (most being stock units and were engraved with school info). I am not sure if the glut has been disposed off yet. I have a IIgs system (ROM 1) with a SCSI card I added later. The machine itself was pretty much a few bucks over shipping charges, the SCSI card was $50. While the stock system itself isn't worth much, the SCSI cards, RAM boards over 1MB, and CPU accelerators are very much in demand and they cost quite a bit to buy them on ebay. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 12:12:57 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:12:57 -0700 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023001@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706141012p1099360bi38f40ebf7f603dc4@mail.gmail.com> On 6/14/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > As I am not a regular Windows user, I can't suggest any Windows tools, > but you have, I think, identified the crux of your requirements - > user-specifiable block size. > I could not get Roxio CD Creator to burn a VMS boot/install CD image. I used CDBurn ( http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=16544 ) which worked fine. I was able to boot the resulting CD using a Plextor CD-ROM switched for 512-byte blocks with a Dilog SQ706A SCSI MSCP controller in a MicroVax-II From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 14 12:31:54 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:31:54 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023001@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <002101c7aea9$e858aca0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Yes I got past that afer a bit of trying. > I have both Ricoh and ASUS DVD and CD R/RW Drives > I had to change the extension from .img to .nrg as raw data or not > Nero would not look at either of my drives as .img is not supported. I don't know what you are doing wrong, but telling it it is an NRG file is incorrect. That's a Nero-internal format. You need .bin or something ... I used .img when I did it. I've no idea why nero "won't look at either of your drives". > > It asks about block sizes around 2k. VMS CD are 512. The block size on a CD is _always_ 2048. No exceptions. Ever. Some drives will pretend that the CD is 512 byte blocks and deliver based on that fiction. The CD is still 2048 bytes. Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 14 12:34:20 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:34:20 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002201c7aeaa$3f0d5460$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Ethan Dicks wrote: > The joy of operating systems with enforced filename extensions. :-P To be fair, this is Nero assuming or enforcing! I can usually override Windows' defaults. > That will be the key - to get whatever tool you use to write 512-byte > blocks, not 2048-byte blocks. You cannot do this. The CD is always 2048 bytes per block. It is the drive that pretends that instead of N 2K blocks you have 4*N 512 byte blocks so it looks like a disk. This made life easier in the earlier days for the OpenVMS and Solaris (and IRIX?) driver writers ... and threw the rest of us another bump to trip over in the years to come! Antonio From dave at mitton.com Thu Jun 14 13:09:32 2007 From: dave at mitton.com (dave at mitton.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:09:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Boot CD - Windows Utilities Message-ID: <24595684.1181844572331.JavaMail.?@fh1036.dia.cp.net> I've had no problems writing ISO image files using a piece of freeware called "CDBurnerXP Pro" from this website http://www.cdburnerxp.se/ Despite the name it is claimed to work on Win 2k (Though I'm not doing VMS images these days) Dave. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 13:31:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:31:38 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <002201c7aeaa$3f0d5460$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <002201c7aeaa$3f0d5460$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: On 6/14/07, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The joy of operating systems with enforced filename extensions. :-P > > To be fair, this is Nero assuming or enforcing! I can usually override > Windows' defaults. Strictly speaking, yes... but extension rigidity is a Windows mentality. > > That will be the key - to get whatever tool you use to write 512-byte > > blocks, not 2048-byte blocks. > > You cannot do this. The CD is always 2048 bytes per block. It is the > drive that pretends that instead of N 2K blocks you have 4*N 512 byte > blocks so it looks like a disk. Ah... I had thought that the underlying filesystem was part of the equation, not that the drive did all the work. > This made life easier in the earlier days for > the OpenVMS and Solaris (and IRIX?) driver writers ... and threw the > rest of us another bump to trip over in the years to come! I have worked with plenty of "starts up in 512-byte-block mode" issues with old SCSI drives and Solaris - it does make boot code trivial because you don't have to worry about the drive's block size. It was nice with later versions of boot ROMs and such that knew that they could and should send a packet to tell the drive to switch to 512-byte-block mode, removing the need for special models of drives with mode jumpers. Honestly, though, I haven't had to worry about it (except when playing Software Archaeologist) in a long time, but then I don't burn ODS disks often. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 13:32:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:32:44 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <002101c7aea9$e858aca0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023001@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <002101c7aea9$e858aca0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: On 6/14/07, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi > > Yes I got past that afer a bit of trying. > > I have both Ricoh and ASUS DVD and CD R/RW Drives > > I had to change the extension from .img to .nrg as raw data or not > > Nero would not look at either of my drives as .img is not supported. > > I don't know what you are doing wrong, but telling it it is an NRG file > is incorrect. That's a Nero-internal format. You need .bin or something ... > I used .img when I did it. I've run into that in the past with Nero... .iso tends to be an acceptable extension to most burning programs, IIRC. -ethan From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Jun 14 14:10:36 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:10:36 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <22797812.1181848237024.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >From: Vincent Slyngstad > >A friend of mine who is a former DEC employee once told me a war story >about being given a "prototype" terminal to take home. He said the PCBs >were thin, and kind of flexible, like the cardboard sheets in the back of a >tablet of paper, and the thing was very tempermental -- even after you got >it working again the MTBF was in hours. He said he eventually threw the >accursed thing away. > >I wonder if this is one of those? > > Vince It definitely sounds like one of these, except that the guy said he used this one for about 6 years. I have posted more pictures of this odd terminal. The board in the back is warped and kinda flimsy looking. Check out the pictures: http://www.woffordwitch.com/ProtoVT50.asp Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 14 12:46:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:46:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 13, 7 10:47:25 pm Message-ID: I have now found my HP dual 5.25" drive, and it's a 82901. I have, of course removed the cover and extracted the controller board. > MB8866 is not a house-code, it's a Fujitsu disk controller chip I;ve not looked at it properly yet, but the pinout of that chip appears at a glance to be _very_ close to that of the WD1793 (closer to that than the WD1771, for example). More data when I've done a little tracing. [...] > > 1820-0325.= MC815P That one suprised me last night, becuase I couldn't understand why there'd be a DTL chip on this board. Am I correct it's a type for 1810-0325? That appears on my board _and on the board of one of the disk drives _ and is a 150 Ohm resistor array (terminator for the floppy drive cable). I am pretty sure the read clock VSO (and part of the PLL circuit?) is the sea of discrete transsitors at the front edge of the board. There's a twiddlepot which presumably sets the read clock frequency, but I'd not turn it yet. HP used a lot of strange circuitry in this sort of thing. Current mirrors and the like. But let's at least prove your drive has problems in that area befroe worrying. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 14 14:11:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:11:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <003a01c7ae6a$4acb1ca0$0a03010a@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 14, 7 11:56:19 am Message-ID: > > > 1820-2075 = 74LS245 (that has 20 pins, surely) > > 1826-0210 = LM361 > > 1820-1197 = 74LS00 > > 1820-1216 = 74LS138 > > 1820-1202 = 74LS10 > > 1820-1112 = 74LS74 > > 1820-1422 = 74LS122 > > 1820-2058 = MC3448L (HPIB buffer chip) > > 1820-0325.= MC815P Note the correction to the last one (it's a 1810-xxxx, and is a resistor arry) in my other message. > Wow!!!! Thank you!! > This really simplify the task to understand what's wrong and replace a chip > if needed. > > I'm just curious about two things: > first, are this hp house codes generic (i.e. valid for any product), or are YEs, they are. They're HP part numbers. In a very few cases the same chip got assigned 2 different part numbers, but in general, the same number was used company-wide. > they related to this controller only? > second, where do you find these valuable informations?!?!? ;-)) I have a long, poorly-copied equivalents list that covers most of them. Other s I have found out by seeing chips marked with both numbers. HP service manuals which include component-level info are another useful source. > >> I've checked almost all points in the circuit, and I didn't find any -Ve > >> supply. Also, PSU only gives +5 and +12 volt. > >Yes, but if the -ve supply circuit has failed, you won't find it :-) > > Oh, yes, that's true... ;-) But having looked at the board, I don't think there is a -ve supply. > > >I am pretty sure I have one of these, or something closely related. If > >you get stuck, I can be convinced to find it, pull the covers and do some > >tests. > > Ok, I'll let you know. I have now found it, unscrewed the cover and pulled out the controller board. More info a little later. > In the meantime, maybe I've found a complete service manual for the drive. > I'm waiting for it. I would be suprised, alas, if it contains scheamtics :-(. Most later HP computer product service manaulas are, alas, boardswapper guides. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 14 15:58:40 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:58:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 14, 7 06:46:01 pm Message-ID: > I;ve not looked at it properly yet, but the pinout of that chip appears > at a glance to be _very_ close to that of the WD1793 (closer to that than > the WD1771, for example). More data when I've done a little tracing. I have now done that 'little tracing'. As far as I can see, the pinout is the same as a WD1793. There are some pins pulled high (these would be Ready, HLT and Test/), and DDEN is tied to ground, but then I'd expect HP to hard-wire it in MFM mode. I think I'd first check I was getting a master clock on pin 24 (I think this should be 1MHz), and then look at pin 26 (read clock) when the unit was trying to read a floppy. -tony From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Jun 14 11:21:39 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:21:39 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023002@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> What is cygwin ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: 14 June 2007 16:27 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Boot CD - The last LAP On Thursday 14 June 2007 00:42, Rod Smallwood wrote: > 4. Suggection for a ROM burning program that: > > a) Will run under Windows 2000 > > b) Produce a cd that is Bootable on a VAX > 4000/200 or 300. Use cdrecord. There's a cdrecord that runs inside of cygwin on windows... http://smithii.com/cdrtools (None of that GUI crap or trademark Windows "helpfulness" to get int the way). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rbazzano at alice.it Thu Jun 14 14:08:32 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:08:32 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: <003a01c7ae6a$4acb1ca0$0a03010a@ufficio> Message-ID: <001301c7aeb7$677d6db0$2201a8c0@ufficio> > 1820-2075 = 74LS245 (that has 20 pins, surely) > 1826-0210 = LM361 > 1820-1197 = 74LS00 > 1820-1216 = 74LS138 > 1820-1202 = 74LS10 > 1820-1112 = 74LS74 > 1820-1422 = 74LS122 > 1820-2058 = MC3448L (HPIB buffer chip) > 1820-0325.= MC815P Wow!!!! Thank you!! This really simplify the task to understand what's wrong and replace a chip if needed. I'm just curious about two things: first, are this hp house codes generic (i.e. valid for any product), or are they related to this controller only? second, where do you find these valuable informations?!?!? ;-)) >> I've checked almost all points in the circuit, and I didn't find any -Ve >> supply. Also, PSU only gives +5 and +12 volt. >Yes, but if the -ve supply circuit has failed, you won't find it :-) Oh, yes, that's true... ;-) >I am pretty sure I have one of these, or something closely related. If >you get stuck, I can be convinced to find it, pull the covers and do some >tests. Ok, I'll let you know. In the meantime, maybe I've found a complete service manual for the drive. I'm waiting for it. Thank you. Roberto From rbazzano at alice.it Thu Jun 14 15:19:00 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:19:00 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <005b01c7aec1$3ee03270$2201a8c0@ufficio> > > 1820-0325.= MC815P >That one suprised me last night, becuase I couldn't understand why >there'd be a DTL chip on this board. Am I correct it's a type for >1810-0325? That appears on my board _and on the board of one of the disk >drives _ and is a 150 Ohm resistor array (terminator for the floppy drive >cable). Yes, sorry, it's typo. The correct code is 1810-0325 as in your drive. >I am pretty sure the read clock VSO (and part of the PLL circuit?) is the >sea of discrete transsitors at the front edge of the board. There's a >twiddlepot which presumably sets the read clock frequency, but I'd not >turn it yet. >HP used a lot of strange circuitry in this sort of thing. Current mirrors >and the like. But let's at least prove your drive has problems in that >area befroe worrying. All other self-tests pass ok, and if I put a floppy formatted with format self-test in another drive (I have a 82902 also), I can read it with the read self-test as described in the service manual. So I'm almost sure that there is a problem in the read circuit. It can be in the analog or digital part of it anyway, but there are more probability that it's in the analog part. Also, I made some reads with the oscilloscope, and it seems there is a shorted transistor. I ordered a few in a local store and I'm waiting for them to replace. Roberto From rbazzano at alice.it Thu Jun 14 15:24:16 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:24:16 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <005f01c7aec1$fb8188c0$2201a8c0@ufficio> >I have a long, poorly-copied equivalents list that covers most of them. >Other s I have found out by seeing chips marked with both numbers. HP >service manuals which include component-level info are another useful >source. Ok, then I've a request for you... ;-)) What about to scan the list and put it on a web site? It could be unbelievable usefull to who is trying to repair a hp unit. I didn't find these info anywhere on the internet. Is it too long to do? >But having looked at the board, I don't think there is a -ve supply. As my supposition. >I have now found it, unscrewed the cover and pulled out the controller >board. More info a little later. Thank you. >I would be suprised, alas, if it contains scheamtics :-(. Most later HP >computer product service manaulas are, alas, boardswapper guides. Yes, I know. I don't hope to find schematics, but the missing procedure to check the read frequency oscillator is a good starting point, also to recalibrate it. Roberto From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Jun 14 16:38:18 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:38:18 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023001@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <002101c7aea9$e858aca0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706141438y5da2afb6pb3646d1834886f51@mail.gmail.com> On 14/06/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've run into that in the past with Nero... .iso tends to be an > acceptable extension to most burning programs, IIRC. > I've definitely used Nero to burn *.img files. BUT I run windows with "hide file extensions" turned OFF (i.e. - show them! It's in Folder Options under View on any windows explorer window.) Then change "files of type" to "All files", and it will magically appear. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 14 17:07:19 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:07:19 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023002@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023002@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706141807.19762.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 14 June 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > What is cygwin ? It's a free set of libraries that lets you run useful software (Unix-y code) on Windows. Google for "cygwin". Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: 14 June 2007 16:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Boot CD - The last LAP > > On Thursday 14 June 2007 00:42, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > 4. Suggection for a ROM burning program that: > > > > a) Will run under Windows 2000 > > > > b) Produce a cd that is Bootable on a > > VAX > > > > 4000/200 or 300. > > Use cdrecord. > > There's a cdrecord that runs inside of cygwin on windows... > http://smithii.com/cdrtools > > (None of that GUI crap or trademark Windows "helpfulness" to get int > the way). > > Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 14 18:01:54 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:01:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70706141438y5da2afb6pb3646d1834886f51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <762798.79706.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> The problem with that is if you rename files and forget to include the extension you will have problems later. So, I suggest you turn "hide file extensions" on afterwards... unless you know all your file types in ASCII - luckily the files I goofed on were image files (.BMP and .JPG) so I used Notepad to view them, saw the ASCII text in the beginning of the files and added the appropriate extensions ("JFIF" is a type of .JPG file and "BM" is a bitmap image). All fixed then :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Rob wrote: On 14/06/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've run into that in the past with Nero... .iso tends to be an > acceptable extension to most burning programs, IIRC. > I've definitely used Nero to burn *.img files. BUT I run windows with "hide file extensions" turned OFF (i.e. - show them! It's in Folder Options under View on any windows explorer window.) Then change "files of type" to "All files", and it will magically appear. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 14 18:27:39 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:27:39 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023002@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023002@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <3C5D795F-3766-4F37-9CEC-F2E37F65F0DD@neurotica.com> On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > What is cygwin ? http://www.cygwin.com/ It is a package for Windows that provides a UNIX-like operating environment. Its aim is to make Windows a bit easier to stomach. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Jun 14 18:40:30 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:40:30 -0700 Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Has anyone on the list emulated one of the old vector scan displays on a modern LCD Screen? Did you go through the raster scan logic or interface directly to the LCD panel electronics? Is anybody working on this idea that you know of? It seems like some of the DEC system enthusiasts would be thinking about this since the original Vector devices are so rare. I have a belief that this is an idea that a lot of list members have thought about; but has anyone put the idea into actual hardware? Billy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 14 18:43:33 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:43:33 -0600 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <3C5D795F-3766-4F37-9CEC-F2E37F65F0DD@neurotica.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023002@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <3C5D795F-3766-4F37-9CEC-F2E37F65F0DD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4671D2A5.1060302@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > It is a package for Windows that provides a UNIX-like operating > environment. Its aim is to make Windows a bit easier to stomach. I find the reverse true. All the UNIX like stuff I have seen are very large compared to win/95. Looking at CLASSIC computers and history I am starting to see how many companies failed to make a good graphics computer system. > -Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 14 18:58:00 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:58:00 -0600 Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <4671D608.9090700@jetnet.ab.ca> Billy Pettit wrote: > I have a belief that this is an idea that a lot of list members have thought > about; but has anyone put the idea into actual hardware? Can one still get vector display tubes still? Anti-aliasing I suspect would be the problem with Vector to raster displays. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 14 19:12:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:12:42 -0700 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <3C5D795F-3766-4F37-9CEC-F2E37F65F0DD@neurotica.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023002@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, <3C5D795F-3766-4F37-9CEC-F2E37F65F0DD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4671770A.16890.4A172383@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jun 2007 at 19:27, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > What is cygwin ? > > http://www.cygwin.com/ > > It is a package for Windows that provides a UNIX-like operating > environment. Its aim is to make Windows a bit easier to stomach. My experience with Cygwin and getting *nix utilities to work the same way that they do under *nix was so unpleasant that I simply employ a separate system running NetBSD. Something like VM386 would also probably be a better solution. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 14 19:43:52 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <4671770A.16890.4A172383@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 14, 2007 05:12:42 PM Message-ID: <200706150043.l5F0hqDq018326@onyx.spiritone.com> > My experience with Cygwin and getting *nix utilities to work the same > way that they do under *nix was so unpleasant that I simply employ a > separate system running NetBSD. Something like VM386 would also > probably be a better solution. > > Cheers, > Chuck I found it to be a nice cheap way to turn my XP system into an X-Terminal for my VMS and Sun systems. :^) After all, besides games, what other use is there for a Windows system? :^) Zane From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 14 19:51:29 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 01:51:29 +0100 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: <003e01c7ae6a$6247d670$0a03010a@ufficio> Message-ID: <007901c7aee7$4f63fde0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>....It'd be interesting to see if the MB8866 is anything like that. > > Unfortunately I didn't find any datasheet for it. ISTR owning an odd third party floppy drive upgrade for the BBC micro about 15 years ago, it consisted of a small PCB containing the FDC and some ancilliary chips which plugged into the socket intended for the FDC (this was *NOT* the official Acorn 1771(?) board). That "MB8866" part number seems awfully familiar.... I don't recall who made it, Cumana?, and I'm 99% certain that I no longer have it. But you may have some luck if you try searching a few Acorn sites. TTFN - Pete. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 14 20:00:31 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:00:31 -0700 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <4671E4AF.9070000@bitsavers.org> Someone on comp.os.cpm wanted to fiddle with the Alcyon C compiler and asked if there is a simulation of CP/M-68K running under Unix. After a bit of digging, I couldn't find one, which was surprising. Does one exist? There are a few simulated 68K systems in MESS, but none of them ran CP/M. It looks like a SAGE II simulation could be added since the software and docs appear to be out there (doesn't look like the SAGE IV boot prom has been dumped) From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 14 20:16:26 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 02:16:26 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP References: <002101c7aea9$e858aca0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <00fc01c7aeea$cc95ad10$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I don't know what you are doing wrong, but telling it it is >an NRG file is incorrect.... Errm, in my experience NERO will, most of the time, figure out what the file you're feeding it is, even if the extension is wrong. Well, v5.5.x used to anyway....this may no-longer be the case. >....I used .img when I did it.... With NERO? I just fired up my current copy, v6.6.1.4, and that doesn't appear to accept ".img" format images. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 14 20:42:55 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 02:42:55 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP References: <762798.79706.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014701c7aeee$7f9e51c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > So, I suggest you turn "hide file extensions" on afterwards.... Actually, I have to disagree with that statement *MOST STRONGLY*! THE VERY FIRST THING YOU SHOULD DO AFTER INSTALLING WINDOWS (aside from reformatting and installing a "real" OS) IS TO _TURN_OFF_ "Hide file extensions", AND LEAVE IT OFF!!!!!!!!! For years, one of the biggest security problems with Windows has been this utterly ridiculous hiding of file extensions; more systems have been infected with trojans and virii due to executable files masquerading as simple text files etc than by almost any other method.... If you have file extensions showing, you can instantly see when a file isn't what it claims to be. THERE IS NO GOOD REASON *WHATSOEVER* FOR HAVING FILE EXTENSIONS HIDDEN! TTFN - Pete. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 20:44:39 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: <4671D608.9090700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <434902.61046.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Billy Pettit wrote: > > > I have a belief that this is an idea that a lot of > list members have thought > > about; but has anyone put the idea into actual > hardware? > > Can one still get vector display tubes still? > Anti-aliasing I suspect would be the problem with > Vector to raster > displays. The picture tubes themselves aren't different from the raster scan monitors. The yokes and deflection circuits are what's different. I do believe that there are some aftermarket deflection boards available intended to repair the abysmal Ampliphone color vector monitors used in some Atari vector games. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 14 21:14:49 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:14:49 -0600 Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:58:00 -0600. <4671D608.9090700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <4671D608.9090700 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > Anti-aliasing I suspect would be the problem with Vector to raster > displays. The only people that managed to get acceptable quality (to vector tube users) with a vector to raster conversion was Evans & Sutherland with their PS390 product. It was their first raster scan graphics terminal. It was used in Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan, you can see the output on the bridge in various sequences. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 14 21:16:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:16:32 -0600 Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:40:30 -0700. <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: In article <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683 at wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, "Billy Pettit" writes: > Has anyone on the list emulated one of the old vector scan displays on a > modern LCD Screen? Nope; it would be non-trivial with an LCD. With a CRT you might have some hope, but as was already noted you'd have to change the HV circuits in the tube. > It seems like some of the DEC system enthusiasts would be thinking about > this since the original Vector devices are so rare. I think it would be easier to condition the signals for an X-Y display (i.e. oscilloscope style display). That's what the HP 1351A vector generator wants anyway. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vrs at msn.com Thu Jun 14 21:57:51 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:57:51 -0700 Subject: OT: Cygwin (was Re: Boot CD - The last LAP) References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023002@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, <3C5D795F-3766-4F37-9CEC-F2E37F65F0DD@neurotica.com> <4671770A.16890.4A172383@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <014d01c7aef8$f88a3cc0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Chuck Guzis" > On 14 Jun 2007 at 19:27, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> > What is cygwin ? >> >> http://www.cygwin.com/ >> >> It is a package for Windows that provides a UNIX-like operating >> environment. Its aim is to make Windows a bit easier to stomach. > > My experience with Cygwin and getting *nix utilities to work the same > way that they do under *nix was so unpleasant that I simply employ a > separate system running NetBSD. Something like VM386 would also > probably be a better solution. My experience with Cygwin a year or two ago under Win98 was similarly awful. However, now I am running a newer version under XP, and it has been great, at least so far. Vince From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 14 22:20:09 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 04:20:09 +0100 Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4671D608.9090700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <015001c7aefc$14fff9a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Can one still get vector display tubes still? Up until a few years ago I used to collect arcade machines too. Vector monitors weren't exactly scarce, but weren't *that* difficult to come by either. "Wells Gardner" (sp?) seem to be the main manufacturer of these, at least for Atari (and possibly Cinematronics?) machines. > Anti-aliasing I suspect would be the problem with Vector to >raster displays. Depends how you do it. If you were to convert a raster monitor to a vector one by replacing the drive electronics there would be no problem at all (though it would be a pretty big job). But I personally wouldn't consider doing it any other way. Converting an LCD flat panel in this manner though would probably be nigh on impossible. TTFN - Pete. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jun 14 22:48:36 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:48:36 -0700 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP Message-ID: I have heard of success using BurnAtOnce. It seems to be free and is based around known-good UNIX tools (runs on Windows), and so it should handle odd filesystems just fine (you may need to rename your image from .odsimg or whatever you call it to .iso for the burning run). From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Jun 14 21:55:02 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 23:55:02 -0300 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP Message-ID: <01C7AEDF.6DF8A420@mandr71> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:31:38 -0400 From: "Ethan Dicks" Subject: Re: Boot CD - The last LAP On 6/14/07, Antonio Carlini wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> The joy of operating systems with enforced filename extensions. :-P >> To be fair, this is Nero assuming or enforcing! I can usually override >> Windows' defaults. >Strictly speaking, yes... but extension rigidity is a Windows mentality. -------------------------------- Well, I don't find it rigid at all; in fact, I find being able to associate a file with the program that I normally want to process it, with the option to use a different one when I have the need, to be a very convenient feature indeed. mike From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 14 23:12:34 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 05:12:34 +0100 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? References: <4671E4AF.9070000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <023901c7af03$668f79b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....asked if there is a simulation of CP/M-68K running under Unix. I've not looked too deeply at this yet, but take a look at: http://www.monroeccc.edu/ckelly/EASy68K.htm It's for Windows and I don't know what hardware it emulates outside of the 68k processor, but it could probably be pursuaded to run CP/M-86K. The source code is there as well as the Windows executables.... >....There are a few simulated 68K systems in MESS, but none of them >ran CP/M.... Hmmm, it's far too early in the morning and I've been up for almost 37 hours straight (damn insomnia, hits me every 14 days or so)....but....there's something tickling the back of my brian about the Atari ST. I really *should* still know this for sure; the ST ran "GEM" on top of "TOS", I'm fairly sure that "TOS" (pretty much) = CP/M-68K. In fact, ISTR briefly using my ST via a CLI at one point, though the "command shell" was not supplied with retail amchines, rather it was one of the goodies supplied with Atari's so called "developer kit". BTW Birmingham's been in the middle of a monsoon for the last six hours....if this continues they'll be able to open a port at the end of my road.... :-) TTFN - Peet. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Jun 14 18:12:49 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:12:49 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023004@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi This is all getting a bit complex. Its rather like a peculiar type of English theatrical entertainment which happens around Christmas called a Pantomime. One of the many strange customs is that under direction from the stage one half of the audience shouts "Oh no it isn't!!" and the other half replies "Oh yes it is!!" Don't ask me to explain it any further. The rules of cricket and the plots in Chinese opera are simpler. So back to the original question: If I want to build a Linux system I go to a distribution site (one of many), download an .iso image, burn it into a standard 600Mb CD, boot the CD and create a system. No funny block sizes, no odd file extensions and no special SCSI drives. So what can I not do this for VMS without the pantomime? A step by step known to work checklist would be a start. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 14 June 2007 19:32 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Boot CD - The last LAP On 6/14/07, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The joy of operating systems with enforced filename extensions. :-P > > To be fair, this is Nero assuming or enforcing! I can usually override > Windows' defaults. Strictly speaking, yes... but extension rigidity is a Windows mentality. > > That will be the key - to get whatever tool you use to write > > 512-byte blocks, not 2048-byte blocks. > > You cannot do this. The CD is always 2048 bytes per block. It is the > drive that pretends that instead of N 2K blocks you have 4*N 512 byte > blocks so it looks like a disk. Ah... I had thought that the underlying filesystem was part of the equation, not that the drive did all the work. > This made life easier in the earlier days for the OpenVMS and Solaris > (and IRIX?) driver writers ... and threw the rest of us another bump > to trip over in the years to come! I have worked with plenty of "starts up in 512-byte-block mode" issues with old SCSI drives and Solaris - it does make boot code trivial because you don't have to worry about the drive's block size. It was nice with later versions of boot ROMs and such that knew that they could and should send a packet to tell the drive to switch to 512-byte-block mode, removing the need for special models of drives with mode jumpers. Honestly, though, I haven't had to worry about it (except when playing Software Archaeologist) in a long time, but then I don't burn ODS disks often. -ethan From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 20:20:59 2007 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:20:59 -0400 Subject: VCF East 4 Message-ID: VCF East 4 was nostalgia writ large. Chuck Peddle entertained all. A true pioneer. And other presenters - collecting and CP/M history -> warmed the cockels of my heart; the historian in me. Kudos to all who put VCF East 4 on -> a computer faire that celebrates old computers. May they never die. [ Have to add this. I was in New York City after the Faire and had the most wonderful dinner at Cosette, a French bistro on 33rd Street. Magnifique! Off topic but we all have to eat! ] Retro computing forever! Murray-- From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Jun 15 02:29:11 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 08:29:11 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <00fc01c7aeea$cc95ad10$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <003701c7af1e$df5381a0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Ensor wrote: > I just fired up my current copy, v6.6.1.4, and that doesn't appear to > accept ".img" format images. I use V6 too. Fire it up. Hit cancel (to eliminate the "what kind of CD/DVD do you want to create" thing), Recorder->Burn Image, down arrow on the "Open" dialog "Files of Type" box and select "All files". Click on a .img file and select the right parameters on the foreign image box. AFAIK it just burns the raw data right onto the CD in mode 1 (or whatever mode you choose). Antonio From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Jun 15 05:30:24 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 06:30:24 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023004@EDISERVER.EDICONS.l ocal> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023004@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706151030.l5FAUQng015638@mail.itm-inst.com> At 07:12 PM 6/14/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >So back to the original question: > > If I want to build a Linux system I go to a distribution site (one of >many), download an .iso image, burn it into a standard 600Mb CD, boot >the CD and create a system. No funny block sizes, no odd file extensions >and no special SCSI drives. So what can I not do this for VMS without >the pantomime? A step by step known to work checklist would be a start. A process known to work (I used this to copy the VMS Hobbyist CD: dd if=/dev/cdrom of=vmscd.iso bs=32768 cdrecord vmscd.iso VMS CDs use 2048 byte sectors, just like everything else so there's nothing to worry about there. You don't need to use a magic "512 byte" capable drive to burn the disk, but you do need a drive that will remap if you're going to boot it. You apparently already have the image, so get cdrecord, available for Unix and Windows. I do find myself wondering how you created the disk image in the first place, and if it's actually usable; you can't just copy a ODS-2 hard disk block-for-block onto a CD and end up with anything usable. Why not just get yourself a copy of the Hobbyist CD and avoid the pantomime? -Rick From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Fri Jun 15 10:44:49 2007 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:44:49 -0400 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <16782425.32241181922289640.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> >Someone on comp.os.cpm wanted to fiddle with the Alcyon C compiler >and asked if there is a simulation of CP/M-68K running under Unix. > >After a bit of digging, I couldn't find one, which was surprising. > >Does one exist? There are a few simulated 68K systems in MESS, but >none of them ran CP/M. It looks like a SAGE II simulation could be added >since the software and docs appear to be out there (doesn't look like >the SAGE IV boot prom has been dumped) > > I have a working Sage IV and would be glad to help with a simulation project by providing boot prom dumps, docs, etc. david. --- http://www.sageandstride.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 15 12:37:53 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:37:53 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023004@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023004@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706151337.53135.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 14 June 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > If I want to build a Linux system I go to a distribution site (one > of many), download an .iso image, burn it into a standard 600Mb CD, > boot the CD and create a system. No funny block sizes, no odd file > extensions and no special SCSI drives. So what can I not do this for > VMS without the pantomime? A step by step known to work checklist > would be a start. It works EXACTLY the same with an image of a VMS install CD. The problems you're having probably relate to certain brain-dead Windows software that assumes that a .img file isn't something it knows how to deal with. The easiest thing to try would be to try renaming the image to .iso, and try burning that with Nero. If that doesn't work, download a copy of cdrecord, read the manual, and use it to burn a cd. Being a UNIX app, cdrecord doesn't have any brain-dead assumptions on what filename extensions mean (ie, it trusts the user to be intelligent, unlike most Windows software). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 14:07:01 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:07:01 -0700 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <200706151030.l5FAUQng015638@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023004@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706151030.l5FAUQng015638@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730706151207s43198ba5u7920822de6d33a37@mail.gmail.com> On 6/15/07, Rick Murphy wrote: > A process known to work (I used this to copy the VMS Hobbyist CD: > > dd if=/dev/cdrom of=vmscd.iso bs=32768 > cdrecord vmscd.iso This thread has been educational - I had assumed that VMS and other OS discs were essentially "uncopyable" under PC software. So will the above process(es) also work with IRIX, NeXT, MacOSX and other format discs (sorry I don't know the proper names of those formats?) The only thing I had found previously that could copy IRIX media was Toast under MacOS 9. But then I probably didn't search that extensively... From mross666 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 14:08:26 2007 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:08:26 +0000 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <200706151703.l5FH20XM042545@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >From: Al Kossow >Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation > >Apparently, G L sells items that in fact weren't supposed to be sold, >forcing the buyers to return them! > >It only reimburses you for the cost of the item, not the shipping. > >Be VERY careful about what you buy through them! > >Read the fine print on the government as well as GL sales site agreement. > >This is the second incident like this I've heard about in the past week. Hmmmmm 'Sorry guv, it turned out it wasn't what I wanted so I dumpstered it' 'terribly sorry old chap, I've already sold it on' Or any other excuse you care to think up. That's really lousy behaviour - they can't change the rules after you've bought it, surely? And if they're going to add insult to injury by refusing to pay shipping then they can hardly expect cooperation... Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 14:38:59 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 15:38:59 -0400 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4672EAD3.2000807@gmail.com> Mike Ross wrote: >> From: Al Kossow >> Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation >> >> Apparently, G L sells items that in fact weren't supposed to be sold, >> forcing the buyers to return them! >> >> It only reimburses you for the cost of the item, not the shipping. >> >> Be VERY careful about what you buy through them! >> >> Read the fine print on the government as well as GL sales site agreement. >> >> This is the second incident like this I've heard about in the past week. > > Hmmmmm > > 'Sorry guv, it turned out it wasn't what I wanted so I dumpstered it' > > 'terribly sorry old chap, I've already sold it on' We're sorry, because you've unknowingly violated a federal directive by selling this device. You're under arrest. You have the right to remain silent... Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 15:10:03 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:10:03 -0400 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: References: <200706151703.l5FH20XM042545@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > >Apparently, G L sells items that in fact weren't supposed to be sold, > >forcing the buyers to return them! > > > >It only reimburses you for the cost of the item, not the shipping. > > > >Be VERY careful about what you buy through them! > > > >Read the fine print on the government as well as GL sales site agreement. > > > >This is the second incident like this I've heard about in the past week. ...and the zillionth since 1944. This rule has ALWAYS been in place, and yes, the government does act on it every so often. Seasoned surplus dealers just live with it, and do not bid on things that may be fishy. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 15 16:04:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:04:43 -0700 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: References: <200706151703.l5FH20XM042545@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , Message-ID: <46729C7B.24920.4E9162D6@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2007 at 16:10, William Donzelli wrote: > This rule has ALWAYS been in place, and yes, the government does act > on it every so often. Seasoned surplus dealers just live with it, and > do not bid on things that may be fishy. Maybe the story's on the web somewhere, but I seem to recall a used- car salesman about a dozen years ago purchasing most of a nuclear fuel reprocessing plant. Even more interesting was that he obtained blueprints and other documentation for it under FOIA. I don't know whatever became of the loot. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 16:10:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:10:19 -0400 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <46729C7B.24920.4E9162D6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706151703.l5FH20XM042545@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46729C7B.24920.4E9162D6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6/15/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Maybe the story's on the web somewhere, but I seem to recall a used- > car salesman about a dozen years ago purchasing most of a nuclear > fuel reprocessing plant. Even more interesting was that he obtained > blueprints and other documentation for it under FOIA. > > I don't know whatever became of the loot. Mailed overseas in boxes marked "Kitchen Utensils"? -ethan From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 15 04:16:44 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 10:16:44 +0100 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <023901c7af03$668f79b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <4671E4AF.9070000@bitsavers.org> <023901c7af03$668f79b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <1181899005.23035.3.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 05:12 +0100, Ensor wrote: > BTW Birmingham's been in the middle of a monsoon for the last six > hours....if this continues they'll be able to open a port at the end of my > road.... :-) We had a bit of drizzle on Tuesday evening while I was helping a mate pick a car up. Not much, just enough to flick the wipers on once a minute or so. As we pulled into the carpark outside his flat to take his car off the trailer, the heavens opened. Within five minutes we were standing in a 3" deep pond, and we'd only just got the ratchet straps off. What has this to do with classic computers? Not a lot. But I still can't get over how heavy the rain was. Gordon From aek at spies.com Fri Jun 15 10:40:18 2007 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 08:40:18 -0700 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation Message-ID: <4672B2E2.7070407@spies.com> Apparently, G L sells items that in fact weren't supposed to be sold, forcing the buyers to return them! It only reimburses you for the cost of the item, not the shipping. Be VERY careful about what you buy through them! Read the fine print on the government as well as GL sales site agreement. This is the second incident like this I've heard about in the past week. ---- To Whom It May Concern: In Sale xxxx you were the successful bidder for Lot xxxx, Invoice number xxxxxx. Since the close of that sale we have been notified by the Government that the demilitarization code for a DTID in this lot, has changed to DEMIL ?D?, thus we?d like to inform you of the action required by you. Description: DATA PROCESSING SET Quantity: 1 NSN: 5862xxxxxx4434 DTID: SC44xxxxxx00VD Because demilitarization code ?C? items require total destruction of the item and components so as to preclude restoration or repair to a usable condition, we would like to make arrangements for you to return the above DTID to the nearest Government Liquidation site. If you still have this item please contact Government Liquidation within 19 working days to coordinate the return of this property. Once the property is returned to a Site Manager with a copy of this letter, and the site manager signs and provides a copy to your representative showing he/she has received the DTID a credit invoice will be created. From jrr at flippers.com Fri Jun 15 11:17:44 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:17:44 -0700 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <4672B2E2.7070407@spies.com> References: <4672B2E2.7070407@spies.com> Message-ID: Interesting - they do state: "If you still have this item please contact Government Liquidation within 19 working days to coordinate the return of this property." So what happens if you do not 'have' this item any more. I've looked at the GL Auctions, but never bought anything from them... John :-#)# At 8:40 AM -0700 6/15/07, Al Kossow wrote: >Apparently, G L sells items that in fact weren't supposed to be sold, >forcing the buyers to return them! > >It only reimburses you for the cost of the item, not the shipping. > >Be VERY careful about what you buy through them! > >Read the fine print on the government as well as GL sales site agreement. > >This is the second incident like this I've heard about in the past week. > >---- > > >To Whom It May Concern: > > > >In Sale xxxx you were the successful bidder for Lot xxxx, Invoice >number xxxxxx. Since the close of that >sale we have been notified by the Government that the >demilitarization code for a DTID in this lot, has >changed to DEMIL 'D', thus we'd like to inform you of the action >required by you. > > > >Description: DATA PROCESSING SET > >Quantity: 1 > >NSN: 5862xxxxxx4434 > >DTID: SC44xxxxxx00VD > > > >Because demilitarization code 'C' items require total destruction of >the item and components so as to preclude >restoration or repair to a usable condition, we would like to make >arrangements for you to return the above >DTID to the nearest Government Liquidation site. If you still have >this item please contact Government >Liquidation within 19 working days to coordinate the return of this >property. Once the property is returned >to a Site Manager with a copy of this letter, and the site manager >signs and provides a copy to your >representative showing he/she has received the DTID a credit invoice >will be created. -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:06:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:06:07 -0400 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <023901c7af03$668f79b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <4671E4AF.9070000@bitsavers.org> <023901c7af03$668f79b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On 6/15/07, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >....asked if there is a simulation of CP/M-68K running under Unix. > ...I don't know what hardware it emulates outside of the > 68k processor, but it could probably be pursuaded to run CP/M-86K. What sort of hardware does CP/M-68K expect? Is it like CP/M-80 where you need, essentially, a mass storage device, and a terminal device, and the BIOS handles low-level stuff, or had Digital Research turned a page by the time CP/M-68K came out, and it was more oriented towards assuming you had a text or graphic framebuffer, not a serial terminal? I guess in other words, if you had a 68000 processor with some attached RAM and a random UART (6551 or Z8530 or 8250/16450/16550), what else might you need to bring up CP/M-68K? -ethan From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Jun 15 17:07:19 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:07:19 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706151207s43198ba5u7920822de6d33a37@mail.gmail.co m> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023004@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706151030.l5FAUQng015638@mail.itm-inst.com> <51ea77730706151207s43198ba5u7920822de6d33a37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706152207.l5FM7PqX016775@mail.itm-inst.com> At 03:07 PM 6/15/2007, Jason T wrote: >On 6/15/07, Rick Murphy wrote: > >>A process known to work (I used this to copy the VMS Hobbyist CD: >> >>dd if=/dev/cdrom of=vmscd.iso bs=32768 >>cdrecord vmscd.iso > >This thread has been educational - I had assumed that VMS and other OS >discs were essentially "uncopyable" under PC software. So will the >above process(es) also work with IRIX, NeXT, MacOSX and other format >discs (sorry I don't know the proper names of those formats?) The low-level format of a CD is defined by a standard that everyone follows. That means that you can use simple low-level tools to copy from a CD (and copy back on to a blank CD-R). You can do the same thing with SCSI disks for the same reason: it's just a bunch of bits with a standard hardware interface; it doesn't matter what format the OS uses. Using dd to copy from one disk to another works a treat when you're using SCSI devices (modulo bad blocks, etc.) For SCSI disk copying, it's best if the source and destination are the same size. For a CD, that's taken care of. -Rick From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 15 17:19:53 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 15:19:53 -0700 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <46731089.7030608@bitsavers.org> > I guess in other words, if you had a 68000 processor with some > attached RAM and a random UART (6551 or Z8530 or 8250/16450/16550), > what else might you need to bring up CP/M-68K? A mass storage device with CP/M bits on it with the right BIOS. Since there are disc images and a boot prom for the Sage, I thought it would be the easiest way to go. The alternative would be to bootstrap it through cross-development tools, since all the sources are available. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 15 17:23:58 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:23:58 -0600 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:17:44 -0700. Message-ID: In article , John Robertson writes: > I've looked at the GL Auctions, but never bought anything from them... I've bought things from them: an HP 1351A graphics generator and some classic AT&T style phones. Other than the usual government bureacracy, there wasn't anything surprising in the arrangement. I haven't tried to buy anything that was specifically made for the military, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 15 17:32:58 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:32:58 -0400 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <4672B2E2.7070407@spies.com> References: <4672B2E2.7070407@spies.com> Message-ID: <4673139A.5090407@atarimuseum.com> Get out!!! Thats such BS, it is THEY who should be held responsible for posting the items up and selling them and if they sold in error, then they should handle ALL expenses, that is such nonsense, thanks for the tip! Curt Al Kossow wrote: > Apparently, G L sells items that in fact weren't supposed to be sold, > forcing the buyers to return them! > > It only reimburses you for the cost of the item, not the shipping. > > Be VERY careful about what you buy through them! > > Read the fine print on the government as well as GL sales site agreement. > > This is the second incident like this I've heard about in the past week. > > ---- > > > To Whom It May Concern: > > > > In Sale xxxx you were the successful bidder for Lot xxxx, Invoice > number xxxxxx. Since the close of that > sale we have been notified by the Government that the demilitarization > code for a DTID in this lot, has > changed to DEMIL ?D?, thus we?d like to inform you of the action > required by you. > > > > Description: DATA PROCESSING SET > > Quantity: 1 > > NSN: 5862xxxxxx4434 > > DTID: SC44xxxxxx00VD > > > > Because demilitarization code ?C? items require total destruction of > the item and components so as to preclude > restoration or repair to a usable condition, we would like to make > arrangements for you to return the above > DTID to the nearest Government Liquidation site. If you still have > this item please contact Government > Liquidation within 19 working days to coordinate the return of this > property. Once the property is returned > to a Site Manager with a copy of this letter, and the site manager > signs and provides a copy to your > representative showing he/she has received the DTID a credit invoice > will be created. > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 15 17:35:19 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:35:19 -0400 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: References: <200706151703.l5FH20XM042545@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46729C7B.24920.4E9162D6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46731427.1070506@atarimuseum.com> LOL!!! (while cringing a bit too...) Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/15/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Maybe the story's on the web somewhere, but I seem to recall a used- >> car salesman about a dozen years ago purchasing most of a nuclear >> fuel reprocessing plant. Even more interesting was that he obtained >> blueprints and other documentation for it under FOIA. >> >> I don't know whatever became of the loot. > > Mailed overseas in boxes marked "Kitchen Utensils"? > > -ethan > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:43:09 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:43:09 -0400 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: References: <4672B2E2.7070407@spies.com> Message-ID: > Interesting - they do state: "If you still have this item please > contact Government Liquidation within 19 working days to coordinate > the return of this property." So what happens if you do not 'have' > this item any more. This is exactly what End Use Certificates are for. They track the item until it is destroyed. In some cases of the past, with no EUC and the military knocking on the door of someone who scraps an item, the result generally is not horrible - they usually just want the important parts. Extremely rarely does one get the Black Helicopter treatment. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:43:09 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:43:09 -0400 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: References: <4672B2E2.7070407@spies.com> Message-ID: > Interesting - they do state: "If you still have this item please > contact Government Liquidation within 19 working days to coordinate > the return of this property." So what happens if you do not 'have' > this item any more. This is exactly what End Use Certificates are for. They track the item until it is destroyed. In some cases of the past, with no EUC and the military knocking on the door of someone who scraps an item, the result generally is not horrible - they usually just want the important parts. Extremely rarely does one get the Black Helicopter treatment. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:43:09 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:43:09 -0400 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: References: <4672B2E2.7070407@spies.com> Message-ID: > Interesting - they do state: "If you still have this item please > contact Government Liquidation within 19 working days to coordinate > the return of this property." So what happens if you do not 'have' > this item any more. This is exactly what End Use Certificates are for. They track the item until it is destroyed. In some cases of the past, with no EUC and the military knocking on the door of someone who scraps an item, the result generally is not horrible - they usually just want the important parts. Extremely rarely does one get the Black Helicopter treatment. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 15 17:49:04 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:49:04 -0600 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <46731427.1070506@atarimuseum.com> References: <200706151703.l5FH20XM042545@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46729C7B.24920.4E9162D6@cclist.sydex.com> <46731427.1070506@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <46731760.8030401@jetnet.ab.ca> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > LOL!!! (while cringing a bit too...) > Runs and checks if his spatula glows in the dark ... I find that hard to believe since all the *good* stuff would be radioactive and locked away. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:57:26 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:57:26 -0400 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46731089.7030608@bitsavers.org> References: <46731089.7030608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 6/15/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > I guess in other words, if you had a 68000 processor with some > > attached RAM and a random UART (6551 or Z8530 or 8250/16450/16550), > > what else might you need to bring up CP/M-68K? > > A mass storage device with CP/M bits on it with the right BIOS. OK. I was hoping it was that simple. I have a number of 68K-based boards, nearly all have serial ports, some have mass storage, some could have it added. In particular, I have a stack of COMBOARDs with between 128K-2MB of RAM, and either a COM5025 (sync only, but could be easily replaced in-socket), or a Z8530, but the closest thing to mass-storage would be a 6821 on the Unibus and Qbus models that could be pressed into service as a CF interface via an IDE adapter (8-bit mode would be easy; 16-bit mode might require some additional logic). Much like my long-standing dream of putting CP/M on my "Z-80 starter board" (that has one or two S-100 sockets on it already), I think it would be fun to take one of these COMBOARDs and make a general purpose computer out of it (since I own the rights, I already have the schematics). If I took the most common one I have on hand, the COMBOARD-II, it has a 8MHz 68000, 128K of parity DRAM, a pair of 2764 EPROMs (16-bits wide), a 6821, a COM5025, and an essentially useless-for-this-application Unibus DMA interface. Presuming that CP/M-68K doesn't have an issue with the differences of a 68010, one could drop one in there, too. I think I'd probably fit some other UART into the COM5025 socket, then either rig up a swabber cable to repin the LP05-style on-board printer port to something that resembles an IDE port, or to bypass the 6821 entirely and just borrow its attachment to the chip select, low address bits and data bus of the 6821 and route _that_ to an IDE-to-CF adapter. There not being a massive demand for CP/M-68K machines, this would all be for fun, and probably not as easy as starting off with a simple purpose-built 68K SBC, but I think it would be entertaining to take a VAX peripheral and turn it into a full-blown computer. I suppose one could do something similar with a DMF-32 (which is also 68000-based), and you'd even have 7 spare serial ports. Much to mull over. If anyone _does_ come up with a UNIX-based virtual environment for CP/M-68K, I'd love to hear about it - I might as well give things a stab in a virtual sense before breaking out the soldering iron. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 15 18:11:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 00:11:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <4671E4AF.9070000@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jun 14, 7 06:00:31 pm Message-ID: > none of them ran CP/M. It looks like a SAGE II simulation could be added > since the software and docs appear to be out there (doesn't look like > the SAGE IV boot prom has been dumped) I have dumps of the Sage II monitor ROMs on disk, and would be happy to provide them to anyone writing such a similation. Just e-mail me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 15 17:41:36 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:41:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <005b01c7aec1$3ee03270$2201a8c0@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 14, 7 10:19:00 pm Message-ID: > All other self-tests pass ok, and if I put a floppy formatted with format > self-test in another drive (I have a 82902 also), I can read it with the > read self-test as described in the service manual. > So I'm almost sure that there is a problem in the read circuit. It can be in > the analog or digital part of it anyway, but there are more probability that > it's in the analog part. Maybe, maybe not :-). I've not traced out any scheamtics yet, but the read circuit is not simple. When tracing out connections to that MB8866 chip, I found the read data line from the drives [1] goes through what appears to be a delay line made of L's C's and a 74LS14 chip. The problem could be in that area. Or it could be in the VCO circuit, or even (let's hope not) in the MB8866 chip itself. [1] The 34 pin drive cable is the standard Shugart pinout, of course. The drives (HP9130 IIRC) are Tandon drives, built to HP spec, with gold-plated PCBs, and the like. I don;t know which company actually made and asembled the PCBs. FWIW, the older 9885 8" drive has a Shugart 800 mechanism with HP electronics (this PCB is not a copy of the standard one. The service manual for that unit actually mentioned this fact, and gives Shugart part numbers for some of the mechancial bits. > Also, I made some reads with the oscilloscope, and it seems there is a > shorted transistor. I ordered a few in a local store and I'm waiting for I don't know what tests you made, but it's not uncommon for theere to be transsitors with bace and collector linked together in this sort of circuit. So in-cricuit tests may bot be relevant. Most of the transistors seem to be 2N3904 (NPN) and 2N3906 (PNP). but there's at least one with an 1855-xxxx number, that may well be a FET. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 15 17:45:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:45:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <005f01c7aec1$fb8188c0$2201a8c0@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 14, 7 10:24:16 pm Message-ID: > > >I have a long, poorly-copied equivalents list that covers most of them. > >Other s I have found out by seeing chips marked with both numbers. HP > >service manuals which include component-level info are another useful > >source. > > Ok, then I've a request for you... ;-)) > What about to scan the list and put it on a web site? It could be I guess you're new enough here not to have heards that I don't own a scanner, annyhting to connect it to, or the nexessary eqipemnet to maintain the scanenr and machine-to-connect-it-to. > unbelievable usefull to who is trying to repair a hp unit. > I didn't find these info anywhere on the internet. > Is it too long to do? It is quite long. Perhaps 10 sides of 3 columns, small typeface. > >I would be suprised, alas, if it contains scheamtics :-(. Most later HP > >computer product service manaulas are, alas, boardswapper guides. > > Yes, I know. I don't hope to find schematics, but the missing procedure to > check the read frequency oscillator is a good starting point, also to > recalibrate it. True....It's quite likely I'll get round to producing schematics _sometime_, but I can't say when (or how long it will take). I guess you want to get it going soon..... -tony From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Jun 15 17:59:06 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 15:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <336028.73653.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> When I was a kid, I used to deal with the John Meshna company. They sold great electronic surplus. Supposedly, the government once sold a lot of Sidewinder missile IR seeker heads to them, which they then sold to hobbyists. These were highly classified at the time, and this was a big boo-boo. Meshna turned over their buyer records, and the government recovered the parts. --Bill From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 18:37:03 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 00:37:03 +0100 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46731089.7030608@bitsavers.org> References: <46731089.7030608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <575131af0706151637h68656b59ka5fe9182062f850d@mail.gmail.com> On 15/06/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > I guess in other words, if you had a 68000 processor with some > > attached RAM and a random UART (6551 or Z8530 or 8250/16450/16550), > > what else might you need to bring up CP/M-68K? > > A mass storage device with CP/M bits on it with the right BIOS. > > Since there are disc images and a boot prom for the Sage, I thought > it would be the easiest way to go. The alternative would be to bootstrap > it through cross-development tools, since all the sources are available. I am no expert on this kind of thing, but wouldn't the quickest/easiest route be to look for an emulator that can handle some existing hardware that ran CP/M-68K? Commodore Amiga: http://www.winuae.net/ Atari ST: http://steem.atari.st/ http://www.atari.st/pacifist/ Sinclair QL: http://www.kilgus.net/qpc/index.html Or some multi-system emulator like MESS: http://www.mess.org/ ... Or perhaps even QEMU: http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/ -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Jun 15 18:04:39 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <46731760.8030401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <291673.26141.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Some years ago, an old decomissioned Cobalt-60 radiation therapy machine that had been sold to a Mexican hospital ended up in a lot of scrap metal. The problem was detected when a truckload of "hot" steel rebar set off the radiation detectors when coming *into* one of the weapons labs. It turned out some of the metal had ended up in the cast-iron stands for restaurant tables (McDonald's, I think). I wonder how much of this radiactive metal was never located... --Bill From james.rice at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 18:46:26 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:46:26 -0500 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <336028.73653.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <336028.73653.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/15/07, William Maddox wrote: > > When I was a kid, I used to deal with the John Meshna > company. They sold great electronic surplus. > Supposedly, the government once sold a lot of > Sidewinder missile IR seeker heads to them, which they > then sold to hobbyists. These were highly classified > at the time, and this was a big boo-boo. Meshna > turned over their buyer records, and the government > recovered the parts. > > --Bill > > I bought a big lot of circuit boards and small mechanical servos from a TI plant's employee surplus store once. I wasn't an employee but as an employee of a contractor on site, I was allowed access to the store. I was planning on salvaging chips from the boards. The next week the manager over the store and a couple of other serious looking people from TI showed up in the section I was working and asked my the disposition of the boards and servos. I explained that I had de-soldered some of the boards but had the chips and still had not done anything with the servos. They met me at my house a hour later and took the box of boards, servos, salvaged chips and all hardware from that lot. The boards and servos were from Paveway bomb kits. The next day I was refunded my original purchase price, given a $100 store credit and a new in box TI99/4A. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jun 15 19:32:58 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:32:58 -0700 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C690@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> William Maddox wrote: Some years ago, an old decomissioned Cobalt-60 radiation therapy machine that had been sold to a Mexican hospital ended up in a lot of scrap metal. The problem was detected when a truckload of "hot" steel rebar set off the radiation detectors when coming *into* one of the weapons labs. It turned out some of the metal had ended up in the cast-iron stands for restaurant tables (McDonald's, I think). I wonder how much of this radiactive metal was never located... --Bill ------------------------------------------- There was an old Nova special about a very similar case except that a lot children were playing with bits and pieces from the machine in the scrap yard. Several came down with radiation poisoning and/or leukemia. By time it was discovered there were dozens of people exposed to it. If I remember correctly, though it was Cesium 137 packaged in nice bright coloured packages, very attractive to children. Most of the material was never recovered. Billy From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 19:38:59 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:38:59 -0700 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <291673.26141.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <46731760.8030401@jetnet.ab.ca> <291673.26141.qm@web82612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706151738s518a3c75ue90f12bb7e43afc2@mail.gmail.com> On 6/15/07, William Maddox wrote: > Some years ago, an old decomissioned Cobalt-60 > radiation therapy machine that had been sold to a > Mexican hospital ended up in a lot of scrap metal. > The problem was detected when a truckload of "hot" > steel rebar set off the radiation detectors when > coming *into* one of the weapons labs. It turned out > some of the metal had ended up in the cast-iron stands > for restaurant tables (McDonald's, I think). I wonder > how much of this radiactive metal was never located... > Off-topic, see the December 6, 1983 entry here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civilian_radiation_accidents On-topic, see the 1985 to 1987, Therac-25 entry and read the details of how a PDP-11 was partly responsible for killing at least 5 people. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 15 17:17:58 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 15:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <4672B2E2.7070407@spies.com> Message-ID: <642949.55906.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Al Kossow wrote: Apparently, G L sells items that in fact weren't supposed to be sold, forcing the buyers to return them! It only reimburses you for the cost of the item, not the shipping. Be VERY careful about what you buy through them! Read the fine print on the government as well as GL sales site agreement. This is the second incident like this I've heard about in the past week. - This has happened to me three times now. Twice, they asked for the items back before I picked them up and once after. They do pay 40 cents/mile for you to return them to the nearest location, not necessarily where you bought them from, but won't pay any original shipping cost you may have incurred. The other thing to watch out for is the valuation they give the items. If they only want one item back out of a lot, the refund is based on the original valuation in the auction for that item. They take all of the item's valuation and figure out the percentage of the winning bid that applies to each item. I bought a lot of weather instruments for my airstrip. One item was of the most value to me and I based my bid on that. When they took it back, the refund was only a very small amount because it had a low valuation in the auction (much lower than it's real purchase price, many item valuations are just guesses or made up as far as I can tell). So I ended up paying quite a bit for the rest of the lot which was mostly junk. Buyer beware! Bob From rcini at optonline.net Fri Jun 15 20:31:22 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:31:22 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs Message-ID: All: I?m working on a 6502 project and I have a PC board CAD recommendation question. I tried out the software that comes with ExpressPCB and it?s kind of bogus. There?s no autorouter, which is exactly what I need (even if it?s a basic router). Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or less. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 20:57:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:57:29 -0400 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706151637h68656b59ka5fe9182062f850d@mail.gmail.com> References: <46731089.7030608@bitsavers.org> <575131af0706151637h68656b59ka5fe9182062f850d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/15/07, Liam Proven wrote: > I am no expert on this kind of thing, but wouldn't the > quickest/easiest route be to look for an emulator that can handle some > existing hardware that ran CP/M-68K? Naturally, but I don't think anyone has yet come up with a pointer to said hardware emulator. > Commodore Amiga: > http://www.winuae.net/ While I have run AmigaDOS and Minix on the Amiga, and one can run *BSD and AMIX (SysV) on it, I am unaware of CP/M-68K for it. If I am wrong, please tell me since I am most familiar with this platform and would easily be able to get up to speed on it. One could port it, naturally (since at the very least, every Amiga has a floppy drive and a serial port), but I don't think this is an out-of-the-box solution. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jun 15 21:44:44 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:44:44 -0700 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46734E9C.8020906@shiresoft.com> I use EagleCAD and have been very happy with it. They have a number of different versions (but I have the full professional version...$$$) and the non-professional versions have limits on the size of the board you can do. Since EagleCAD produces Gerber files and Exelan drill files, you can go to any board house to have your boards fab'd. EagleCAD supports Windows, Mac OSX (PPC only...not really a problem and it's X based) and Linux. Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I?m working on a 6502 project and I have a PC board CAD recommendation > question. I tried out the software that comes with ExpressPCB and it?s kind > of bogus. There?s no autorouter, which is exactly what I need (even if it?s > a basic router). > > Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics > capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute > do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or > less. > > Thanks! > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > > -- TTFN - Guy From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 15 21:48:21 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 22:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <200706152207.l5FM7PqX016775@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023004@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706151030.l5FAUQng015638@mail.itm-inst.com> <51ea77730706151207s43198ba5u7920822de6d33a37@mail.gmail.com> <200706152207.l5FM7PqX016775@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <200706160249.WAA29544@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The low-level format of a CD is defined by a standard that everyone > follows. Well, except for people doing copy protection. As usual. :-( (Not that that's all that relevant to the case that started this thread, but....) > For SCSI disk copying, it's best if the source and destination are > the same size. For a CD, that's taken care of. Only approximately. Consider overburning. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 15 22:01:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:01:19 -0700 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <336028.73653.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: , <336028.73653.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4672F00F.10860.4FD7D959@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2007 at 15:59, William Maddox wrote: > When I was a kid, I used to deal with the John Meshna > company. They sold great electronic surplus. > Supposedly, the government once sold a lot of > Sidewinder missile IR seeker heads to them, which they > then sold to hobbyists. These were highly classified > at the time, and this was a big boo-boo. Meshna > turned over their buyer records, and the government > recovered the parts. Hey, I remember the sales circular! I was sore tempted to buy one... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 22:33:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <356771.66963.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> How many flavas of CP/M-86 was there? Assuredly there was one for the IBM PC. It might help to determine what platforms the 68k versions ran on. I'm pretty sure the Dimension 68000 had it (in fact I *may* have it). Don't have a Dimension yet though... There were *project* 68k boxes the plans for which appeared in Radio Electronics (another was mentioned, was supposedly popular in Europe - anyone have any info?). IIRC CP/M 68k was the only thing that ran on it. This thing was mentioned on here some time ago. Not sure if I have all the issues (wherever they are), but I'm interested in building one. It would be kinda nice if *we* could locate someone that has it (beside the original designer - I think that's who's trying to sell it or boards or whatever for the most ungodly prices). Hey I did actually make contact with someone who built the RE Robot (80186 based). It would be nice to figure out a way to *make contact* with peeps who aren't necessarily inclined to collect or collaborate in this fashion, but just have one of the blooming things in their closet still. oi --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/15/07, Liam Proven wrote: > > I am no expert on this kind of thing, but wouldn't > the > > quickest/easiest route be to look for an emulator > that can handle some > > existing hardware that ran CP/M-68K? > > Naturally, but I don't think anyone has yet come up > with a pointer to > said hardware emulator. > > > Commodore Amiga: > > http://www.winuae.net/ > > While I have run AmigaDOS and Minix on the Amiga, > and one can run *BSD > and AMIX (SysV) on it, I am unaware of CP/M-68K for > it. If I am > wrong, please tell me since I am most familiar with > this platform and > would easily be able to get up to speed on it. > > One could port it, naturally (since at the very > least, every Amiga has > a floppy drive and a serial port), but I don't think > this is an > out-of-the-box solution. > > -ethan > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 15 22:40:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:40:28 -0700 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706151637h68656b59ka5fe9182062f850d@mail.gmail.com> References: <46731089.7030608@bitsavers.org>, <575131af0706151637h68656b59ka5fe9182062f850d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4672F93C.6441.4FFBB0CE@cclist.sydex.com> > On 15/06/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I guess in other words, if you had a 68000 processor with some > > > attached RAM and a random UART (6551 or Z8530 or 8250/16450/16550), > > > what else might you need to bring up CP/M-68K? > > > > A mass storage device with CP/M bits on it with the right BIOS. How about CP/M 68K for the TRS80 Mod 16? I'm not certain after a bunch of years, but didn't that use the Z80 side for all of the I/O? So no actual physical I/O should be written in 68K assembly and the actual I/O business end could be handled by the emulator in native (x86) mode. Just an idea... Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 15 22:50:47 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:50:47 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: <46734E9C.8020906@shiresoft.com> References: <46734E9C.8020906@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <46735E17.3080901@atarimuseum.com> I agree, Eagle is a really good program and worth it, even the free version, the commercial version is well worth it and price really isn't all that bad when you consider all of the very powerful features that come with it and any PCB fab accepts the output files. Curt Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I use EagleCAD and have been very happy with it. They have a number > of different versions (but I have the full professional version...$$$) > and the non-professional versions have limits on the size of the board > you can do. Since EagleCAD produces Gerber files and Exelan drill > files, you can go to any board house to have your boards fab'd. > > EagleCAD supports Windows, Mac OSX (PPC only...not really a problem > and it's X based) and Linux. > > Richard A. Cini wrote: >> All: >> >> I?m working on a 6502 project and I have a PC board CAD >> recommendation >> question. I tried out the software that comes with ExpressPCB and >> it?s kind >> of bogus. There?s no autorouter, which is exactly what I need (even >> if it?s >> a basic router). >> >> Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced >> schematics >> capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can >> autoroute >> do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or >> less. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Rich >> >> -- >> Rich Cini >> Collector of Classic Computers >> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator >> http://www.altair32.com >> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp >> >> >> >> > From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 23:18:17 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 00:18:17 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: <46735E17.3080901@atarimuseum.com> References: <46734E9C.8020906@shiresoft.com> <46735E17.3080901@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: There are GPL programs gEDA/gschem, PCB for Linux, Windows, MAC OS... Last time I used it I didn't think there was autorouter. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 15 23:38:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:38:53 -0700 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <356771.66963.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <356771.66963.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <467306ED.5657.50312A19@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2007 at 20:33, Chris M wrote: > How many flavas of CP/M-86 was there? Assuredly there > was one for the IBM PC. Many, if you include the "special" applications, such as programmable controllers. > It might help to determine what platforms the 68k > versions ran on. I'm pretty sure the Dimension 68000 > had it (in fact I *may* have it). Don't have a > Dimension yet though... Again, there were versions for CNC and industrial equipment also. However, I think that the prevailing thought was that there were better OS-es for "general computation" type of work. There wasn't a lot of carryover from the Intel platform program base, as there was between CP/M-80 and CP/M-86. I liked GEM a lot on the 68K. Cheers, Chuck From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Jun 15 23:46:57 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 00:46:57 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46736B41.5010204@comcast.net> Checkout KiCad. It's free, it has a huge library. They have a strong support group on Yahoo. Also Cad models for different components. They also have utilities to convert libraries from other Eda tools. Just recently, someone converted all the libraries from Eagle. There's another person which created a library which has dozens and dozens of 3D cad models for components too. =Dan [ vintage electrons are just as good ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I?m working on a 6502 project and I have a PC board CAD recommendation > question. I tried out the software that comes with ExpressPCB and it?s kind > of bogus. There?s no autorouter, which is exactly what I need (even if it?s > a basic router). > > Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics > capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute > do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or > less. > > Thanks! > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > > From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Jun 15 23:55:45 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 00:55:45 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46736D51.1060108@comcast.net> Another thing about autorouters, Unless the eda tool lets you enter constraints, it's not going be to of significant value. KiCad doesn't have the greatest autorouter. But then you wouldn't find a decent one unless you get a professional eda tool (which lets you enter constraints). Even though a processor such as the 6502 isn't high speed(concerning crosstalk,etc) you still don't want to get the spaghetti out of an autorouter--which most of these low end eda tools provide. For such a small board your better off to manually route the board--where you route the address/data bus cleanly across the board, and control signals and clocks are not intermingled with them. =Dan [ vintage electrons are just as good ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I?m working on a 6502 project and I have a PC board CAD recommendation > question. I tried out the software that comes with ExpressPCB and it?s kind > of bogus. There?s no autorouter, which is exactly what I need (even if it?s > a basic router). > > Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics > capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute > do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or > less. > > Thanks! > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 00:01:21 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 22:01:21 -0700 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46731089.7030608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >From: Al Kossow > > I guess in other words, if you had a 68000 processor with some > > attached RAM and a random UART (6551 or Z8530 or 8250/16450/16550), > > what else might you need to bring up CP/M-68K? > >A mass storage device with CP/M bits on it with the right BIOS. > >Since there are disc images and a boot prom for the Sage, I thought >it would be the easiest way to go. The alternative would be to bootstrap >it through cross-development tools, since all the sources are available. How about a Canon Cat. It is a little restrictive on RAM ( 256K ) but it has a disk, keybaord and monitor. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 01:45:53 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 02:45:53 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) Message-ID: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> Most of the hardware hasn't been cabled up yet, and the hardware that's actually running isn't pictured because it's my network core and I won't put pictures of it on the internet for security reasons... BUT... Here are pictures of my machine room. It's a work in progress, but it shows what I've done to reinforce the floor. Because I've *decidedly* exceeded the floor loading capacity. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 01:50:24 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 02:50:24 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Most of the hardware hasn't been cabled up yet, and the hardware that's > actually running isn't pictured because it's my network core and I won't > put pictures of it on the internet for security reasons... BUT... > > Here are pictures of my machine room. It's a work in progress, but it > shows what I've done to reinforce the floor. > > Because I've *decidedly* exceeded the floor loading capacity. Whoops. I forgot the URL. It's: http://www.ikickass.org/machineroom/ Peace... Sridhar From andylesley at aol.com Fri Jun 15 17:08:57 2007 From: andylesley at aol.com (Andrew A. Malin) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:08:57 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a Teleram T-3000? Message-ID: <20070615220903.3BB501D25C@smtp2.bestweb.net> Any idea what a Telram T-3000 might be worth? Ran across a guy that had 4 or 5 with original boxes, looking for me to make an offer. I think he was looking for $200 or so each, which seemed a bit high to me, but I really have no clue, and I didn't want to miss out if they really are worth that kind of $$. Not sure how old your post was that I googled, but you might have a better idea than I. Thank you! Andrew. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 15 17:27:47 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:27:47 +0100 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <200706151337.53135.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023004@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706151337.53135.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1181946467.24253.5.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 13:37 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > If that doesn't work, download a copy of cdrecord, read the manual, > and > use it to burn a cd. Being a UNIX app, cdrecord doesn't have any > brain-dead assumptions on what filename extensions mean (ie, it trusts > the user to be intelligent, unlike most Windows software). Actually no, it doesn't trust the user to be intelligent, it just doesn't care if you make a mess of things. Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jun 15 17:42:32 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:42:32 +0100 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902300A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I vaguely remember a rumour about a cheap kit terminal to go with the Heathkit LSI-11. The boards are that paper based stuff you see in consumer electronics. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder Sent: 14 June 2007 20:11 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Strange VT50 Decscope >From: Vincent Slyngstad > >A friend of mine who is a former DEC employee once told me a war story >about being given a "prototype" terminal to take home. He said the >PCBs were thin, and kind of flexible, like the cardboard sheets in the >back of a tablet of paper, and the thing was very tempermental -- even >after you got it working again the MTBF was in hours. He said he >eventually threw the accursed thing away. > >I wonder if this is one of those? > > Vince It definitely sounds like one of these, except that the guy said he used this one for about 6 years. I have posted more pictures of this odd terminal. The board in the back is warped and kinda flimsy looking. Check out the pictures: http://www.woffordwitch.com/ProtoVT50.asp Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 16 02:21:29 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 03:21:29 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015501c7afe6$f58743d0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 2:50 AM Subject: Re: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) > http://www.ikickass.org/machineroom/ > > Peace... Sridhar You need to hit the lottery and buy a small warehouse for that stuff. From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 02:34:20 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 03:34:20 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <015501c7afe6$f58743d0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> <015501c7afe6$f58743d0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4673927C.9090105@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: >> http://www.ikickass.org/machineroom/ >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > You need to hit the lottery and buy a small warehouse for that stuff. I have a storage locker full of gear and one very large machine in a friend's warehouse. This is the stuff I keep around the house. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 02:39:26 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 03:39:26 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <1181946467.24253.5.camel@elric> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023004@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706151337.53135.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1181946467.24253.5.camel@elric> Message-ID: <01838B1D-1A63-429B-87AA-8DA6B41B9893@neurotica.com> On Jun 15, 2007, at 6:27 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> If that doesn't work, download a copy of cdrecord, read the manual, >> and >> use it to burn a cd. Being a UNIX app, cdrecord doesn't have any >> brain-dead assumptions on what filename extensions mean (ie, it >> trusts >> the user to be intelligent, unlike most Windows software). > > Actually no, it doesn't trust the user to be intelligent, it just > doesn't care if you make a mess of things. ...in the same way that, say, a Bridgeport mill does. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 03:24:52 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 04:24:52 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <01838B1D-1A63-429B-87AA-8DA6B41B9893@neurotica.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023004@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <200706151337.53135.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1181946467.24253.5.camel@elric> <01838B1D-1A63-429B-87AA-8DA6B41B9893@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46739E54.5000404@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 15, 2007, at 6:27 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> If that doesn't work, download a copy of cdrecord, read the manual, >>> and >>> use it to burn a cd. Being a UNIX app, cdrecord doesn't have any >>> brain-dead assumptions on what filename extensions mean (ie, it trusts >>> the user to be intelligent, unlike most Windows software). >> >> Actually no, it doesn't trust the user to be intelligent, it just >> doesn't care if you make a mess of things. > > ...in the same way that, say, a Bridgeport mill does. I *want* my machine to give me enough rope to hang myself. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Sat Jun 16 05:24:11 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 11:24:11 +0100 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A133FCE-6CF2-4D8E-A21E-0AE02A55A3AF@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 16 Jun 2007, at 07:45, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > ... the hardware that's actually running isn't pictured because > it's my network core and I won't put pictures of it on the internet > for security reasons... Can't you just photoshop out the IP addresses? Stroller. From pdp11 at saccade.com Sat Jun 16 05:45:13 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 03:45:13 -0700 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706161047.l5GAlXmm034665@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, > Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics >capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute >do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or >less. A couple years ago when I was getting back into circuit design I looked into a few packages in some detail. I came to the same conclusion about ExpressPCB, it's just too limited. I looked into Eagle, and while it's popular on the web and very functional, I found the user interface just too clunky to deal with. It's clear it started life as a DOS program, and the designers just haven't moved it forward. I finally settled on Target 3001. It's done by a small crew in Germany. While it has it's small quirks, it's very complete (it has an auto-router!) and quite easy to use. The parts library is reasonably extensive, though it does have a distinctive European accent. Here's the URL: http://www.ibfriedrich.com/english/ When I was actively using it a year or two ago the customer support was fantastic: email questions answered in a day or two, and in one case where'd I found a bug, they sent a new executable with a fix the next day! They have a free download for small designs (< 200 pins/pads), I've done fairly extensive designs with the "smart" edition (< 700 pins/pads) for less than $200. This version outputs standard Gerber files you can send to any PCB fab house. There's also a free version that outputs exclusively to a European PCB house (www.pcb-pool.com) The card for the PDP-11/70 panel controller I did a few years ago was done in Target 3001: http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html I'd be very interested to hear feedback on other similar CAD packages - it's very difficult to find review material on stuff like this. Cheers, jp From pdp11 at saccade.com Sat Jun 16 05:45:13 2007 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 03:45:13 -0700 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706161047.l5GAlXCZ034666@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, > Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics >capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute >do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or >less. A couple years ago when I was getting back into circuit design I looked into a few packages in some detail. I came to the same conclusion about ExpressPCB, it's just too limited. I looked into Eagle, and while it's popular on the web and very functional, I found the user interface just too clunky to deal with. It's clear it started life as a DOS program, and the designers just haven't moved it forward. I finally settled on Target 3001. It's done by a small crew in Germany. While it has it's small quirks, it's very complete (it has an auto-router!) and quite easy to use. The parts library is reasonably extensive, though it does have a distinctive European accent. Here's the URL: http://www.ibfriedrich.com/english/ When I was actively using it a year or two ago the customer support was fantastic: email questions answered in a day or two, and in one case where'd I found a bug, they sent a new executable with a fix the next day! They have a free download for small designs (< 200 pins/pads), I've done fairly extensive designs with the "smart" edition (< 700 pins/pads) for less than $200. This version outputs standard Gerber files you can send to any PCB fab house. There's also a free version that outputs exclusively to a European PCB house (www.pcb-pool.com) The card for the PDP-11/70 panel controller I did a few years ago was done in Target 3001: http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html I'd be very interested to hear feedback on other similar CAD packages - it's very difficult to find review material on stuff like this. Cheers, jp From grant at stockly.com Sat Jun 16 06:14:00 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 03:14:00 -0800 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070616031319.035ff6c0@pop.1and1.com> > Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics >capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute >do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or >less. I like WinQCad. The software is free, with autorouter, for a limited number of pins. True try before you buy. : ) Grant From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 06:52:46 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 12:52:46 +0100 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <46731089.7030608@bitsavers.org> <575131af0706151637h68656b59ka5fe9182062f850d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706160452k3135b9b7v9d10da8abc1e8109@mail.gmail.com> On 16/06/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/15/07, Liam Proven wrote: > > I am no expert on this kind of thing, but wouldn't the > > quickest/easiest route be to look for an emulator that can handle some > > existing hardware that ran CP/M-68K? > > Naturally, but I don't think anyone has yet come up with a pointer to > said hardware emulator. > > > Commodore Amiga: > > http://www.winuae.net/ > > While I have run AmigaDOS and Minix on the Amiga, and one can run *BSD > and AMIX (SysV) on it, I am unaware of CP/M-68K for it. If I am > wrong, please tell me since I am most familiar with this platform and > would easily be able to get up to speed on it. > > One could port it, naturally (since at the very least, every Amiga has > a floppy drive and a serial port), but I don't think this is an > out-of-the-box solution. Well, OK, fair call, but the Miggy was only the 1st MC68K system I listed. The ST ran something derived from CP/M-68K anyway; was there an "official" version? Or for the QL? All 3 were fairly well-documented, so adding support to an existing multi-system emulator like MESS or QEMU might be a lot more straightforward than starting one from scratch... -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jun 16 07:24:30 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 08:24:30 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070616031319.035ff6c0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: Ok, I downloaded KiCad and WinQCad and we'll see where we go. Good news is that the project is small enough that it's not too much of a pain to re-draw the schematic. On 6/16/07 7:14 AM, "Grant Stockly" wrote: > >> Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics >> capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute >> do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or >> less. > > I like WinQCad. The software is free, with autorouter, for a limited > number of pins. True try before you buy. : ) > > Grant > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 16 08:16:44 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 09:16:44 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4673E2BC.30300@comcast.net> You might want to check out the extra Libraries(extensive) for KiCad too Converted Libraries (from Eagle) http://library.oshec.org/ Additional Libraries, 3D Cad models http://www.reniemarquet.cjb.net/kicad.htm (original link) http://tinyurl.com/26jk3x (Translated) =Dan [ vintage electrons are just as good ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Richard A. Cini wrote: > Ok, I downloaded KiCad and WinQCad and we'll see where we go. Good news is > that the project is small enough that it's not too much of a pain to re-draw > the schematic. > > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 16 09:08:33 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 10:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: <015001c7aefc$14fff9a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4671D608.9090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <015001c7aefc$14fff9a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706161410.KAA13036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If you were to convert a raster monitor to a vector one by replacing > the drive electronics there would be no problem at all Really? I thought vector displays normally use electrostatic deflection, whereas raster displays normally use magnetic deflection. (And of course no amount of drive electronics work can add deflection plates to a tube that doesn't have them.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 10:19:29 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 11:19:29 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <4A133FCE-6CF2-4D8E-A21E-0AE02A55A3AF@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <4A133FCE-6CF2-4D8E-A21E-0AE02A55A3AF@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> Message-ID: <4673FF81.3020309@gmail.com> Stroller wrote: > > On 16 Jun 2007, at 07:45, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> >> ... the hardware that's actually running isn't pictured because it's >> my network core and I won't put pictures of it on the internet for >> security reasons... > > Can't you just photoshop out the IP addresses? No, because it isn't hard to figure out what the IP address is. Peace... Sridhar From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 11:23:33 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 09:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: <200706161410.KAA13036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <868410.42166.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- der Mouse wrote: > > If you were to convert a raster monitor to a > vector one by replacing > > the drive electronics there would be no problem at > all > > Really? I thought vector displays normally use > electrostatic > deflection, whereas raster displays normally use > magnetic deflection. > (And of course no amount of drive electronics work > can add deflection > plates to a tube that doesn't have them.) Most (all?) larger screen vector displays are magnetically deflected, like the ones in video games, Vectrex game consoles, etc. Electrostatic tubes are common in 'scopes though. -Ian From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 16 12:07:00 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:07:00 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <4673FF81.3020309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706161707.l5GH77To055071@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 11:19:29 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Stroller wrote: >> >> On 16 Jun 2007, at 07:45, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>> >>> ... the hardware that's actually running isn't pictured because it's >>> my network core and I won't put pictures of it on the internet for >>> security reasons... >> >> Can't you just photoshop out the IP addresses? >No, because it isn't hard to figure out what the IP address is. >Peace... Sridhar If the IP address is easy to figure out, than what would a picture of the room show, that a port scan, would not find, or show up on a deep index search of your name ? Just a thought ... Bob From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jun 16 12:20:33 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:20:33 -0300 Subject: PCB CAD Programs References: Message-ID: <01ca01c7b03a$d974ca10$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics >capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute >do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or >less. Good options are: - Eagle. Not too expensive in the "non-profit" version with boards up to 16x10 if I'm not mistaken. The UI is clunky and the autorouter does it work in double sided boards. - Diptrace. "work in progress" but a GREAT program, tons of libraries (and convert eagle libraries to it!) and the developer is very active and responsive for all kind of questions and bug reports. Made me delay the purchase of the eagle license - Circad - Best of all, but doesn't do autorouter (which I don't need anyways) and very, very expensive. Ugh. - Protel - there is a 30 day "trial" which you can build your board :o) - KCad. Free but a good program, worth a look. I'd stick with diptrace. I see nothing better than it From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jun 16 12:27:31 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:27:31 -0300 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01df01c7b03b$a516ea90$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> Because I've *decidedly* exceeded the floor loading capacity. Interesting how things are made in USA (?). Here everything is done with brick and cement, you don't need usually to do what you did. I still wonder why americans (and other people) build houses all of wood :oO Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 16 12:36:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 11:36:25 -0600 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <01df01c7b03b$a516ea90$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> <01df01c7b03b$a516ea90$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46741F99.8090400@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Interesting how things are made in USA (?). Here everything is done > with brick and cement, you don't need usually to do what you did. I > still wonder why americans (and other people) build houses all of wood :oO At one time wood was cheap. So was brick a very long time ago. > Greetz from Brazil > Alexandre Souza From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 16 12:37:34 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 10:37:34 -0700 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <46741FDE.9070400@bitsavers.org> > I have a working Sage IV and would be glad to help with a simulation project > by providing boot prom dumps, docs, etc. Thanks! Adding dumps of the programmable parts from the machines that you have to your web site would seem to be a good thing independent of any simulation efforts. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 16 12:40:57 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 11:40:57 -0600 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: <01ca01c7b03a$d974ca10$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <01ca01c7b03a$d974ca10$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <467420A9.2030903@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > - Protel - there is a 30 day "trial" which you can build your board :o) I want the DOS program ... Well ok I got the shareware version but every thing is now GUI and very expensive. Australa seems to have a lot a PCB programs, I wounder is that the only place that still have people building hobby electronic stuff. It is too hard for me to get my $$$ from Canada to there so I too am looking for a good PCB program, but first I need schematics created ... From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 16 12:40:29 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:40:29 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> <01df01c7b03b$a516ea90$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) > >> Because I've *decidedly* exceeded the floor loading capacity. > > Interesting how things are made in USA (?). Here everything is done with > brick and cement, you don't need usually to do what you did. I still wonder > why americans (and other people) build houses all of wood :oO > > Greetz from Brazil > Alexandre Souza Because most houses are not in an earthquake zone, building with wood is faster and cheaper, and the US and Canada is full of forests. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 16 12:45:53 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:45:53 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <01df01c7b03b$a516ea90$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <200706161746.l5GHk0TR057302@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:27:31 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> Because I've *decidedly* exceeded the floor loading capacity. > Interesting how things are made in USA ... why americans (and other people) build houses all of wood Would you believe it is a Druid thing :) how about the fact we have so much wood here, we burn it for entertainment. There is a feel to a nice strung wood floor and a warmth to a wood house, that can not be found with cement and block houses. I have lived on slab floors and winters are not the same. Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 12:47:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:47:16 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 15, 2007, at 9:31 PM, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I?m working on a 6502 project and I have a PC board CAD > recommendation > question. I tried out the software that comes with ExpressPCB and > it?s kind > of bogus. There?s no autorouter, which is exactly what I need (even > if it?s > a basic router). Actually it's quite good. I've done three commercial products with that software, running it under a Windows emulator on an adult computer. No autorouter though, that's very true. But many autorouters are more trouble than they're worth, IMO. > Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced > schematics > capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can > autoroute > do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking > $250 or > less. I now use PCB (for X11) which is fantastic, even for very large multilayer boards. Its autorouter is better than it was, but it's still...an autorouter. I do my layouts by hand. It's time consuming, but then there's that whole "pride in workmanship" thing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 12:48:10 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:48:10 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: References: <46734E9C.8020906@shiresoft.com> <46735E17.3080901@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DCD6EA4-CD87-4CD3-BBE9-72240A2D9FA0@neurotica.com> On Jun 16, 2007, at 12:18 AM, 9000 VAX wrote: > There are GPL programs gEDA/gschem, PCB for Linux, Windows, MAC OS... > Last time I used it I didn't think there was autorouter. PCB has had an autorouter for 2-3 years that I know of. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jun 16 12:50:14 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:50:14 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <01df01c7b03b$a516ea90$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> <01df01c7b03b$a516ea90$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <467422D6.8070402@atarimuseum.com> We tend to wonder why other homes are built all in cinderblock as I see a great deal in Central and South America. Its a matter of available resources, climate/humidity... obviously with severe humidity, insects and severe weather a ciderblock/cement home will stand up for a longer period of time over wood construction -- However, in a diverse climate like here in New York where winters are generally down in 0F to summers as high as 100+F and going from very dry to very humid, Stone/Ciderblock and mortar joints all take a severe beating from the expansion and contraction of the materials, so generally only the foundations, mostly under the frost line as the only ciderblock and rebarred concrete parts of a home structure while the remainder is lighter and more climate-durable woodframed, OSB/Plywood sheathed and then covered in a wrap and cosmetic accenting.) The other factor too, peoples tastes and preferences in materials as well. Curt Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> Because I've *decidedly* exceeded the floor loading capacity. > > Interesting how things are made in USA (?). Here everything is done > with brick and cement, you don't need usually to do what you did. I > still wonder why americans (and other people) build houses all of wood > :oO > > Greetz from Brazil > Alexandre Souza > > From evan at snarc.net Sat Jun 16 13:05:44 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:05:44 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a Teleram T-3000? In-Reply-To: <20070615220903.3BB501D25C@smtp2.bestweb.net> Message-ID: <002901c7b040$f5fe7cc0$6401a8c0@evan> Definitely worth that much. I sent you a private reply as well, with more information. - Evan -----Original Message----- From: Andrew A. Malin [mailto:andylesley at aol.com] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 6:09 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Anyone have a Teleram T-3000? Any idea what a Telram T-3000 might be worth? Ran across a guy that had 4 or 5 with original boxes, looking for me to make an offer. I think he was looking for $200 or so each, which seemed a bit high to me, but I really have no clue, and I didn't want to miss out if they really are worth that kind of $$. Not sure how old your post was that I googled, but you might have a better idea than I. Thank you! Andrew. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Jun 16 13:10:39 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 11:10:39 -0700 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4674279F.2080609@msm.umr.edu> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> >> >> Because I've *decidedly* exceeded the floor loading capacity. > I would be nervous about not having some cross support on the extra beams. they will tend to twist as you move around, and you should do lateral bracing on a setup like this if it is long term. Good idea though with what you have up top though. I was always luck to be able to set up on a slab when I did anything like this. jim From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 16 13:56:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 11:56:21 -0700 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: <467420A9.2030903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <01ca01c7b03a$d974ca10$f0fea8c0@alpha>, <467420A9.2030903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4673CFE5.2822.53423743@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2007 at 11:40, woodelf wrote: > I want the DOS program ... > Well ok I got the shareware version but every thing is now GUI and very > expensive. > Australa seems to have a lot a PCB programs, I wounder is that the > only place that still have people building hobby electronic stuff. > It is too hard for me to get my $$$ from Canada to there so I too > am looking for a good PCB program, but first I need schematics created > ... Well, if anyone wants "vintage", I still have a PCB CAD program written for the Atari ST. Can't recall the name right now, but it sort of worked... Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jun 16 14:25:53 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 15:25:53 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: <01ca01c7b03a$d974ca10$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: Well, I now have five different CAD programs installed and so far Diptrace is the easiest to use. It has easy-to-use component selection, busses and the workflow seems to be smooth. I downloaded the 250-pin version so we'll see how far I get. I will probably exceed 250 pins but it's a very reasonable price to move to 500. On 6/16/07 1:20 PM, "Alexandre Souza" wrote: >> Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics >> capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute >> do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or >> less. > > Good options are: > > - Eagle. Not too expensive in the "non-profit" version with boards up to > 16x10 if I'm not mistaken. The UI is clunky and the autorouter does it work > in double sided boards. > - Diptrace. "work in progress" but a GREAT program, tons of libraries > (and convert eagle libraries to it!) and the developer is very active and > responsive for all kind of questions and bug reports. Made me delay the > purchase of the eagle license > - Circad - Best of all, but doesn't do autorouter (which I don't need > anyways) and very, very expensive. Ugh. > - Protel - there is a 30 day "trial" which you can build your board :o) > - KCad. Free but a good program, worth a look. > > I'd stick with diptrace. I see nothing better than it > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 14:59:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 15:59:30 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7FB43E0D-9153-4D71-A8A3-C3DF97E0262E@neurotica.com> On Jun 16, 2007, at 2:50 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Most of the hardware hasn't been cabled up yet, and the hardware >> that's actually running isn't pictured because it's my network >> core and I won't put pictures of it on the internet for security >> reasons... BUT... >> Here are pictures of my machine room. It's a work in progress, >> but it shows what I've done to reinforce the floor. >> Because I've *decidedly* exceeded the floor loading capacity. > > Whoops. I forgot the URL. It's: > > http://www.ikickass.org/machineroom/ Most excellent. Hey, I recognize some of that hardware! ;) (the power control rack for the 8700 still needs to be picked up from Maryland!) I like the floor reinforcements...very nicely done. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 15:01:46 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rainbow outback Message-ID: <495805.20060.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Equipment-Corporation-Rainbow -PC-1982_W0QQitemZ110138804739QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1247 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Aussies must have something against keyboards. The Tandy 2000 that appeared recently didn't have one either! Apparently this dude is a collector too (look in the background of the 2nd picture). ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jun 16 15:30:57 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:30:57 -0300 Subject: PCB CAD Programs References: <01ca01c7b03a$d974ca10$f0fea8c0@alpha> <467420A9.2030903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <024601c7b055$6aa9a540$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> - Protel - there is a 30 day "trial" which you can build your board >> :o) > I want the DOS program ... DOS??????????????? Why? :oO From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jun 16 15:38:05 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 16:38:05 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:47:16 EDT." Message-ID: <200706162038.l5GKc5rN032421@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > > I now use PCB (for X11) which is fantastic, even for very large >multilayer boards. Its autorouter is better than it was, but it's Will PCB import old P-CAD boards? I've been looking for something which will absorb some old customer p-cad schematic & board files and let me change them. Personally I use Eagle and like it a lot (probably says something about my UI notions :-). I've done a number of boards with it and been happy. Certainly up to 6 layers it's fine. But I will admit it has some issues; split internal planes are not it's strong suit. I like it because I can do things quickly and get gerbers which can be made by anyone. And it runs on linux. -brad From rbazzano at alice.it Sat Jun 16 09:39:11 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 16:39:11 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <000901c7b024$1b6c6bb0$2201a8c0@ufficio> >I think I'd first check I was getting a master clock on pin 24 (I think >this should be 1MHz), and then look at pin 26 (read clock) when the unit >was trying to read a floppy. On pin 26 there is absolutely nothing: it's always low. I traced it back, and found that there is nothing because pin 11 of LM361 (output 1) is always low. I didn't go back it yet. Also, I replaced all transistors and nothing changed. Roberto From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 16 13:25:18 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:25:18 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) Message-ID: <0JJQ00BV6R4348G0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) > From: woodelf > Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 11:36:25 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Alexandre Souza wrote: > >> Interesting how things are made in USA (?). Here everything is done >> with brick and cement, you don't need usually to do what you did. I >> still wonder why americans (and other people) build houses all of wood :oO > >At one time wood was cheap. So was brick a very long time ago. > >> Greetz from Brazil >> Alexandre Souza In many parts of the USA insulation is required as it's either very cold in the winter or very hot in the summer. In some areas that seasonal change can be exteme. Either way insulation can be easier to do with wood than brick or stone. FYI: I never store anything fragile in my shed out back as hotter than 54C in the summer and colder than -10C in the winter are all too common. Those extremes are not good for electronics. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 16:35:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:35:45 -0400 Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: <200706161410.KAA13036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4671D608.9090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <015001c7aefc$14fff9a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706161410.KAA13036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <5D4863C7-65E6-4EF4-963C-E6D67FB87A4A@neurotica.com> On Jun 16, 2007, at 10:08 AM, der Mouse wrote: >> If you were to convert a raster monitor to a vector one by replacing >> the drive electronics there would be no problem at all > > Really? I thought vector displays normally use electrostatic > deflection, whereas raster displays normally use magnetic deflection. > (And of course no amount of drive electronics work can add deflection > plates to a tube that doesn't have them.) There's certainly nothing about either raster or vector methodologies that implies or precludes either type of deflection. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 16:36:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:36:32 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <4673FF81.3020309@gmail.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <4A133FCE-6CF2-4D8E-A21E-0AE02A55A3AF@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> <4673FF81.3020309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86C259A8-3842-4F1A-987A-BD6EB6B14FD4@neurotica.com> On Jun 16, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> ... the hardware that's actually running isn't pictured because >>> it's my network core and I won't put pictures of it on the >>> internet for security reasons... >> Can't you just photoshop out the IP addresses? > > No, because it isn't hard to figure out what the IP address is. So you've sunk to security by obscurity? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 16:39:57 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:39:57 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: <4673CFE5.2822.53423743@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <01ca01c7b03a$d974ca10$f0fea8c0@alpha>, <467420A9.2030903@jetnet.ab.ca> <4673CFE5.2822.53423743@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jun 16, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I want the DOS program ... >> Well ok I got the shareware version but every thing is now GUI and >> very >> expensive. >> Australa seems to have a lot a PCB programs, I wounder is that the >> only place that still have people building hobby electronic stuff. >> It is too hard for me to get my $$$ from Canada to there so I too >> am looking for a good PCB program, but first I need schematics >> created >> ... > > Well, if anyone wants "vintage", I still have a PCB CAD program > written for the Atari ST. Can't recall the name right now, but it > sort of worked... I believe today's "PCB" program was derived from that program on the ST. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 16 16:33:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:33:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902300A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Jun 15, 7 11:42:32 pm Message-ID: > > Hi > I vaguely remember a rumour about a cheap kit terminal to go with the > Heathkit LSI-11. > The boards are that paper based stuff you see in consumer electronics. The thing that struck me about the PCBs in the VT5x was that they're single-sided with a _lot_ of wire links. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 16 16:47:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:47:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: <200706161410.KAA13036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 16, 7 10:08:33 am Message-ID: > > > If you were to convert a raster monitor to a vector one by replacing > > the drive electronics there would be no problem at all > > Really? I thought vector displays normally use electrostatic > deflection, whereas raster displays normally use magnetic deflection. Some vector displays use electrostatic deflection, some use magnetic. The DEC VR14 (and IIRC VR12, VR17) all use magnetic deflection. I think the HP1311 etc were electrostatic, but I would have to pull covers to check. Gettting down to smaller units, the Vectrex was certainly magnetic. The HP9100 calcualtor (if that counts) is electrostatic If you use magntic deflection, you need to drive the coils from a current source (since it's the current that determines the magnetic field, which in turn determines the deflection of the beam), and said current source needs to have a pretty high output voltage to overcome the back-emf from said coils when you rapidly change the position of the beam (==change the current through the coil). The problem with electrostatic deflection is that you need a special CRT (A TV tupe doesn't have the defleciton plates) and you have problems getting a large deflection angle if you want to keep the relationship between applied volatage and defleciton linear. That means your CRT will be very long from front to back (think of the typical old 'scope CRT, where linearity is obviously very important. It's perhaps 18" from base to screen for a 6" diameter screen). > (And of course no amount of drive electronics work can add deflection > plates to a tube that doesn't have them.) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 16 16:38:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:38:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: <01838B1D-1A63-429B-87AA-8DA6B41B9893@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 16, 7 03:39:26 am Message-ID: > > On Jun 15, 2007, at 6:27 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> If that doesn't work, download a copy of cdrecord, read the manual, > >> and > >> use it to burn a cd. Being a UNIX app, cdrecord doesn't have any > >> brain-dead assumptions on what filename extensions mean (ie, it > >> trusts > >> the user to be intelligent, unlike most Windows software). > > > > Actually no, it doesn't trust the user to be intelligent, it just > > doesn't care if you make a mess of things. > > ...in the same way that, say, a Bridgeport mill does. Or like any decent tool, real or virtual does. I don't want my tools to stop me doing stupid things becuase they'd also stop me doing odd, but ultimately sensible, things. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 16 16:56:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> <01df01c7b03b$a516ea90$f0fea8c0@alpha> <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <20070616145443.I15214@shell.lmi.net> > > why americans (and other people) build houses all of wood :oO > > Greetz from Brazil > > Alexandre Souza On Sat, 16 Jun 2007, Teo Zenios wrote: > Because most houses are not in an earthquake zone, building with wood is > faster and cheaper, and the US and Canada is full of forests. and when those forests are all cut down, they will still be importing wood cheaply from Brazil From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 16:58:40 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:58:40 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: <200706162038.l5GKc5rN032421@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200706162038.l5GKc5rN032421@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <835E5A97-E990-40AE-8A65-9F162242F2F0@neurotica.com> On Jun 16, 2007, at 4:38 PM, Brad Parker wrote: >> I now use PCB (for X11) which is fantastic, even for very large >> multilayer boards. Its autorouter is better than it was, but it's > > Will PCB import old P-CAD boards? I've been looking for something > which will absorb some old customer p-cad schematic & board files and > let me change them. I don't think it can. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 16 17:26:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:26:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <000901c7b024$1b6c6bb0$2201a8c0@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 16, 7 04:39:11 pm Message-ID: > > >I think I'd first check I was getting a master clock on pin 24 (I think > >this should be 1MHz), and then look at pin 26 (read clock) when the unit > >was trying to read a floppy. > > On pin 26 there is absolutely nothing: it's always low. > I traced it back, and found that there is nothing because pin 11 of LM361 > (output 1) is always low. > I didn't go back it yet. I've just checked my unit for you. I get 1MHz on pin 24 of the FDC chip (as expected) and about 250kHz on pin 26 (read clock). There is twice this frequency (500kHz) on pin 11 of the LM361. More interestingly I've checked the supplies to the LM361. I get +12V on pin 1 (+ve supply), +5V on pin 14 (output stage +ve supply) _and_ -9.5V on pin 6. So there is a -ve supply (I'd half-suspected there was, knowing that other HP drive units which use a load of transsitors + an LM361 as the VCO/PLL also have a -ve supply). I've not yet discovered where it comes from, it must be generated on the controller board (my guess is that those 2 metal-can transsitors at the front left corner have somethign to do with it). Can you check the supplies on your unit. If the -ve supply is missing it could explain a lot. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 17:33:18 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 18:33:18 -0400 Subject: Boot CD - The last LAP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6EAAE39F-C083-452E-9D95-18C0C8A6A88B@neurotica.com> On Jun 16, 2007, at 5:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> If that doesn't work, download a copy of cdrecord, read the manual, >>>> and >>>> use it to burn a cd. Being a UNIX app, cdrecord doesn't have any >>>> brain-dead assumptions on what filename extensions mean (ie, it >>>> trusts >>>> the user to be intelligent, unlike most Windows software). >>> >>> Actually no, it doesn't trust the user to be intelligent, it just >>> doesn't care if you make a mess of things. >> >> ...in the same way that, say, a Bridgeport mill does. > > Or like any decent tool, real or virtual does. I don't want my > tools to > stop me doing stupid things becuase they'd also stop me doing odd, but > ultimately sensible, things. Yep. I needed to be "coddled" by a computer when I was 7. Not much after that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 16 17:56:21 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 18:56:21 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> <01df01c7b03b$a516ea90$f0fea8c0@alpha> <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> <20070616145443.I15214@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003801c7b069$8f0088a0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 5:56 PM Subject: Re: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) > > > why americans (and other people) build houses all of wood :oO > > > Greetz from Brazil > > > Alexandre Souza > > On Sat, 16 Jun 2007, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Because most houses are not in an earthquake zone, building with wood is > > faster and cheaper, and the US and Canada is full of forests. > > and when those forests are all cut down, they will still be importing wood > cheaply from Brazil > Quite a bit of the wood they cut is stuff they planted a long time ago. The really old trees tend to be in national parks and they do not get cut down as far as I know. If you have never been to the US there are huge areas with nothing but trees, we have 300M people but there is plenty of unused land still (unlike old Europe). Not sure why we even import trees from Canada, must be cheaper I guess. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 16 17:56:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:56:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 16, 7 11:26:00 pm Message-ID: > So there is a -ve supply (I'd half-suspected there was, knowing that > other HP drive units which use a load of transsitors + an LM361 as the > VCO/PLL also have a -ve supply). I've not yet discovered where it comes > from, it must be generated on the controller board (my guess is that > those 2 metal-can transsitors at the front left corner have somethign to > do with it). A quick look at the PCB (and I'll admit I've not removed it, only looked for likely signals) suggests the -ve supply comes as follows : The master clock (8 MHz oscillator package) is divided down to 500kHz by the 'b' side of the '393 next to it, then divided down further to 31.25kHz by tghe 'a; side of that chip. The 'a' and 'b' sections of the '26 next to that are the drivers for the -ve supply. Yo ucan't see any obvious signal at the output of the 'a' section. it may well drive the base of a transsitor or something (it is an open-collector output, so this would be OK). The 4 transistors in front of the power conenctor are some kind of totem-pole output stage producing a 12V p-p square wave with a freqeucny of 31.25kHz from this signal (and the 12V supply input, of course). In front of that are a couple of electrolytic caps and some diodes. These form a charge pump circuit, giving the -ve supply. You should see -9.5V on the right hand (not earthed) end of the front-most capacitor of the pair. I've not traced any more.... -tony From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 18:10:39 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 19:10:39 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: <835E5A97-E990-40AE-8A65-9F162242F2F0@neurotica.com> References: <200706162038.l5GKc5rN032421@mwave.heeltoe.com> <835E5A97-E990-40AE-8A65-9F162242F2F0@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6/16/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jun 16, 2007, at 4:38 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > >> I now use PCB (for X11) which is fantastic, even for very large > >> multilayer boards. Its autorouter is better than it was, but it's > > > > Will PCB import old P-CAD boards? I've been looking for something > > which will absorb some old customer p-cad schematic & board files and > > let me change them. > > I don't think it can. :-( If P-CAD format is open, then it will not be hard to write a P-CAD - PCB converter. PCB files are in text-format. This is priceless. I added pictures/logos to the PCB board by directly editing the text file. vax, 9000 -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From trag at io.com Sat Jun 16 18:06:52 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 18:06:52 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 46, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: <200706161702.l5GH1ve7057904@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706161702.l5GH1ve7057904@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:02 -0500 06/16/2007, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:31:22 -0400 >From: "Richard A. Cini" >Subject: PCB CAD Programs >To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >All: > > I?m working on a 6502 project and I have a PC board CAD recommendation >question. I tried out the software that comes with ExpressPCB and it?s kind >of bogus. There?s no autorouter, which is exactly what I need (even if it?s >a basic router). > > Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics >capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute >do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or >less. Osmond runs on OSX (and earlier Mac OS) and I've found it to be very usable. I have not used the latest version so I can not comment on the quality of the auto-router. However, you can try it for free. If your design's pin (meaning inflection point of traces, I believe) count is below a certain number, you can use it for free. Regardless of your design's pin count, you can lay it out and route it, but if your design reaches into the paying region, you won't be able to output it. Still, that will let you try out the auto-router without investing any money. If you do want to purchase it, I think (IIRC) it is in the $200 region. I've used it for a few board designs so far which I've output as Gerber for manufacture and it has worked well. Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Sat Jun 16 18:15:19 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 18:15:19 -0500 Subject: PCB CAD Programs Message-ID: At 12:02 -0500 06/16/2007, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:31:22 -0400 >From: "Richard A. Cini" > I?m working on a 6502 project and I have a PC board CAD recommendation >question. I tried out the software that comes with ExpressPCB and it?s kind >of bogus. There?s no autorouter, which is exactly what I need (even if it?s >a basic router). > > Does anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably priced schematics >capture and layout program for either Windows or Mac OSX that can autoroute >do boards up to say 6? x 8?? When I say reasonable, I?m thinking $250 or >less. Osmond runs on OSX (and earlier Mac OS) and I've found it to be very usable. I have not used the latest version so I can not comment on the quality of the auto-router. However, you can try it for free. If your design's pin (meaning inflection point of traces, I believe) count is below a certain number, you can use it for free. Regardless of your design's pin count, you can lay it out and route it, but if your design reaches into the paying region, you won't be able to output it. Still, that will let you try out the auto-router without investing any money. If you do want to purchase it, I think (IIRC) it is in the $200 region. I've used it for a few board designs so far which I've output as Gerber for manufacture and it has worked well. Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Sat Jun 16 18:16:04 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 18:16:04 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 46, Issue 36 Message-ID: Ooops. Apologies to the list for the message with the digest reply-to header. Jeff Walther From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 16 18:24:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 16:24:16 -0700 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <20070616145443.I15214@shell.lmi.net> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game>, <20070616145443.I15214@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46740EB0.16030.54377C93@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2007 at 14:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > and when those forests are all cut down, they will still be importing wood > cheaply from Brazil I hadn't realized that Brazil was a good source of softwood. The Pacific Northwest is basically a temperate rain forest. On the "wet side" Douglas-fir (not actually a fir) grows like weeds. The natives here used to set fires to keep their camas fields clear of trees and brush, but now all of those old praries are getting taken over by trees. Strength-to-weight of softwood compares favorably to steel and is far ahead of brick or concrete. And you need lots of energy to make brick and concrete and steel. Bamboo is better, but the US doesn't grow a lot of structural bamboo. See: http://www.organicbuilding.com/index.mvc?ArticleID=35 Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 16 18:26:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 16:26:17 -0700 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <003801c7b069$8f0088a0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <003801c7b069$8f0088a0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <46740F29.23656.54395798@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2007 at 18:56, Teo Zenios wrote: > Not sure why we even import trees from Canada, > must be cheaper I guess. Can you say "government subsidies"? Just like US sugar. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 16 19:04:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 18:04:54 -0600 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46747AA6.3080400@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard A. Cini wrote: > Well, I now have five different CAD programs installed and so far Diptrace > is the easiest to use. It has easy-to-use component selection, busses and > the workflow seems to be smooth. > > I downloaded the 250-pin version so we'll see how far I get. I will probably > exceed 250 pins but it's a very reasonable price to move to 500. > All my designs seem to have about 40 TTL chips. That is over 500 pins @ 16 pins a chip. :( From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 16 19:13:41 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 18:13:41 -0600 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <003801c7b069$8f0088a0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> <01df01c7b03b$a516ea90$f0fea8c0@alpha> <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> <20070616145443.I15214@shell.lmi.net> <003801c7b069$8f0088a0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <46747CB5.4000002@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: > Quite a bit of the wood they cut is stuff they planted a long time ago. The > really old trees tend to be in national parks and they do not get cut down > as far as I know. If you have never been to the US there are huge areas with > nothing but trees, we have 300M people but there is plenty of unused land > still (unlike old Europe). Not sure why we even import trees from Canada, > must be cheaper I guess. I am still not sure why Canada imports Trees too. Ikea comes to mind. All we have around here is the cheap MFB stuff. > From steerex at mindspring.com Sat Jun 16 19:29:38 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 20:29:38 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) Message-ID: <01C7B055.11EBC000@MAGGIE> > > why americans (and other people) build houses all of wood :oO > > Greetz from Brazil > > Alexandre Souza On Sat, 16 Jun 2007, Teo Zenios wrote: > Because most houses are not in an earthquake zone, building with wood is > faster and cheaper, and the US and Canada is full of forests. The old addage "When in Rome do as the Romans do" applies here. In a previous life I was a general contractor in South Florida. The vast majority of homes there are Masonary blocks on a concrete foundation with wood truss roof system. The reasons are simple: 1) Termites - Zillions of them! You gotta keep wood away from the soil. Subterrainian termites can do massive damage in a relatively short period of time. 2.) Maintenence - Environmental exposure (Sun / Heat / Humidity) destroys wood. 3.) Insulation... In that climate large R values are not needed in walls or floors. 4.) No basements - Water level is too high. No basement means there's no need for wood flooring systems. 5.) Material availability. The ground in South Florida is largely limestone. It's one of the primary ingredents in concrete and it's easily crushed to make the aggregate (gravel). Concrete is probably cheaper there than anywhere else in the US. 6.) Hurricane protection - A concrete block structure with reinforced concrete tie-beam is MUCH stronger than a wood structure. 7.) Availablity of tradesmen familiar with the materials. I recently moved to North Carolina where almost every home is wood frame construction. Once again "When in Rome..." From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 16 19:37:18 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 18:37:18 -0600 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <01C7B055.11EBC000@MAGGIE> References: <01C7B055.11EBC000@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <4674823E.3010404@jetnet.ab.ca> Steve Robertson wrote: > I recently moved to North Carolina where almost every home is wood frame construction. > Once again "When in Rome..." Rome is Marble ... :) From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 19:41:56 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 20:41:56 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <4674279F.2080609@msm.umr.edu> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> <4674279F.2080609@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <46748354.9030903@gmail.com> jim wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Because I've *decidedly* exceeded the floor loading capacity. >> > I would be nervous about not having some cross support on the extra > beams. they will tend to twist as you move around, and you should do > lateral bracing on a setup like this if it is long term. Good idea though > with what you have up top though. Well, actually, this is more of a temporary setup. The basement floor is deteriorating a bit, it being 80+ years old and having seen its share of damp. So what I'm intending on doing is chipping out the parts that are flaking and pouring a good 3"+ slab on top of the existing one. I'm going to be extending those beams all the way across to the other side of the house, and seating them on poured footings. Plus, the beams I have right now are doubled-up 2x12s. I'll replace them with manufactured wood I-beams later. That's the long-term goal anyway. Right now, I'm just making sure not to roll anything around too fast. That said, the room definitely feels pretty solid when you're walking around. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 19:44:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 20:44:25 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <7FB43E0D-9153-4D71-A8A3-C3DF97E0262E@neurotica.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> <7FB43E0D-9153-4D71-A8A3-C3DF97E0262E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <467483E9.2020008@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 16, 2007, at 2:50 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Most of the hardware hasn't been cabled up yet, and the hardware >>> that's actually running isn't pictured because it's my network core >>> and I won't put pictures of it on the internet for security >>> reasons... BUT... >>> Here are pictures of my machine room. It's a work in progress, but >>> it shows what I've done to reinforce the floor. >>> Because I've *decidedly* exceeded the floor loading capacity. >> >> Whoops. I forgot the URL. It's: >> >> http://www.ikickass.org/machineroom/ > > Most excellent. Hey, I recognize some of that hardware! ;) (the > power control rack for the 8700 still needs to be picked up from Maryland!) I should be able to afford to do it before too long. Speaking of that power control rack. How close to the CPU does it need to be? Can I put it on the basement floor underneath and cable it straight upwards? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 19:45:05 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 20:45:05 -0400 Subject: PCB CAD Programs In-Reply-To: <024601c7b055$6aa9a540$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <01ca01c7b03a$d974ca10$f0fea8c0@alpha> <467420A9.2030903@jetnet.ab.ca> <024601c7b055$6aa9a540$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46748411.3030200@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> - Protel - there is a 30 day "trial" which you can build your >>> board :o) >> I want the DOS program ... > > DOS??????????????? Why? :oO I love DOS. Peace... Sridhar From steerex at mindspring.com Sat Jun 16 19:50:58 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 20:50:58 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) Message-ID: <01C7B058.0B521D90@MAGGIE> > Quite a bit of the wood they cut is stuff they planted a long time ago. The > really old trees tend to be in national parks and they do not get cut down > as far as I know. If you have never been to the US there are huge areas with > nothing but trees, we have 300M people but there is plenty of unused land > still (unlike old Europe). Not sure why we even import trees from Canada, > must be cheaper I guess. Actually they do cut trees in the National forests for the lumber industry. The Feds and State issue permits to the lumber companies to take a certain number of trees. Most of the trees they take in this area are mature hardwoods (Oak, Ash, etc..). I have seen the helecopters near my home lifting the logs out of the woods. It's expensive to remove them that way but, the environmental impact is lessened. The revenue from the permits goes into a special account for underfunded or economically stressed local school programs. It has really helped the schools in this area (Western North Carolina). This particular program seems to be well managed and has the support of most of the locals. This entire area was logged in the early 1900's so the trees they are removing today aren't really that old. See ya, SteveRob From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 16 20:58:38 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 02:58:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dial-up suppliers Message-ID: <126999.76976.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, Urgh... my dial-up ISP of about 4 years has recently had a change in policy. Instead of a monthly payment of ?14.99, Boltblue.com have decided to make it free + local telephone charges (to telephone company). This means paying Boltblue nothing and a bill of ?400 to BT :( What a con, are they trying to force me onto broadband?? Gonna go and search online for another dial-up ISP that does the monthly charge thing. Has anyone else experienced anything like this?? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 16 21:04:49 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:04:49 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <003801c7b069$8f0088a0$0b01a8c0@game> <46740F29.23656.54395798@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <007301c7b083$e3528970$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 7:26 PM Subject: Re: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) > On 16 Jun 2007 at 18:56, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Not sure why we even import trees from Canada, > > must be cheaper I guess. > > Can you say "government subsidies"? Just like US sugar. > > US sugar is expensive as hell, most of the candy companies left for Canada or Mexico because of that. Did you mean we subsidize corn (which is how we have corn syrup as a sweetener for most everything).? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 16 21:43:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 19:43:27 -0700 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <007301c7b083$e3528970$0b01a8c0@game> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <007301c7b083$e3528970$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <46743D5F.15871.54EDD89D@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2007 at 22:04, Teo Zenios wrote: > US sugar is expensive as hell, most of the candy companies left for Canada > or Mexico because of that. Did you mean we subsidize corn (which is how we > have corn syrup as a sweetener for most everything).? Not to drift too far afield, but the US spends about $1.2 Billion (2005 numbers) in Federal subsidies and price supports, as well as import quotas. This means that domestic growers can export sugar and sell it for less abroad than it costs domestically. The same story obtains for other crops such as cotton. Any more and I'd be straying into politics. Cheers, Chuck From jzg22 at drexel.edu Sat Jun 16 22:25:13 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:25:13 -0400 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <200706160754.l5G7rTBv052827@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706160754.l5G7rTBv052827@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4674A999.80403@drexel.edu> > Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:44:49 -0400 > From: "David W. Erhart" > Subject: RE: Simulated CP/M-68K? > To: > Message-ID: <16782425.32241181922289640.JavaMail.servlet at perfora> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > >> Someone on comp.os.cpm wanted to fiddle with the Alcyon C compiler >> and asked if there is a simulation of CP/M-68K running under Unix. >> >> After a bit of digging, I couldn't find one, which was surprising. >> >> Does one exist? There are a few simulated 68K systems in MESS, but >> none of them ran CP/M. It looks like a SAGE II simulation could be added >> since the software and docs appear to be out there (doesn't look like >> the SAGE IV boot prom has been dumped) >> >> >> > > I have a working Sage IV and would be glad to help with a simulation project by providing boot prom dumps, docs, etc. > > david. > > --- > http://www.sageandstride.org > > > ------------------------------ > I'd be happy to forward any documentation, boot roms, etc. to the MESS team, if you're ok with that. Jonathan Gevaryahu jzg22 at drexel.edu From jzg22 at drexel.edu Sat Jun 16 22:36:14 2007 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:36:14 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model II bootroms In-Reply-To: <200706161702.l5GH1ve3057904@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706161702.l5GH1ve3057904@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4674AC2E.90402@drexel.edu> BTW, in regards to MESS, the MESS team is looking for copies of the various TRS-80 Model II bootroms. The different models of the system cannot be emulated without them, and they're available approximately nowhere that I could find. Jonathan Gevaryahu jzg22 at drexel.edu From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 16 23:19:54 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: <5D4863C7-65E6-4EF4-963C-E6D67FB87A4A@neurotica.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4671D608.9090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <015001c7aefc$14fff9a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706161410.KAA13036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <5D4863C7-65E6-4EF4-963C-E6D67FB87A4A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200706170427.AAA07846@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Really? I thought vector displays normally use electrostatic >> deflection, whereas raster displays normally use magnetic >> deflection. > There's certainly nothing about either raster or vector methodologies > that implies or precludes either type of deflection. No, not strictly. But when it comes to moving large distances fast, I'd rather be driving electrostatic than magnetic, partly because the capacitor formed by deflection plates stores less energy than the inductor formed by a deflection yoke, partly because I'd rather have to generate a current spike than a voltage spike. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 16 23:41:43 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:41:43 -0400 Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: <200706161410.KAA13036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <015001c7aefc$14fff9a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706161410.KAA13036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200706170041.43853.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 16 June 2007 10:08, der Mouse wrote: > > If you were to convert a raster monitor to a vector one by replacing > > the drive electronics there would be no problem at all > > Really? I thought vector displays normally use electrostatic > deflection, whereas raster displays normally use magnetic deflection. > (And of course no amount of drive electronics work can add deflection > plates to a tube that doesn't have them.) Puttin' em on the outside won't work, eh? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rbazzano at alice.it Sat Jun 16 16:58:08 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:58:08 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive Message-ID: <002901c7b061$6d7ad030$2201a8c0@ufficio> >I guess you're new enough here not to have heards that I don't own a >scanner, annyhting to connect it to, or the nexessary eqipemnet to >maintain the scanenr and machine-to-connect-it-to. Ah, ok, sorry. Anyway, here (http://www.hparchive.com/bench_briefs.htm) I found a few documents with almost all hp parts cross-reference. Roberto From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Jun 16 18:51:14 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:51:14 +0100 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <642949.55906.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <642949.55906.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1182037874.24253.26.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 15:17 -0700, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > This has happened to me three times now. Twice, they asked for > the items back before I picked them up and once after. > They do pay 40 cents/mile for you to return them to the nearest > location, not necessarily where you bought them from, but > won't pay any original shipping cost you may have incurred. Screw that for a laugh. I'd be inclined to reply with "It's on the loading dock as soon as the payment hits my bank account. Feel free to pick it up any time after that." Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 16 23:39:55 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 05:39:55 +0100 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023010@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Ah yes trees.. In the UK we have lots of individual trees, a fair few woods and only a few forests. If we go back to after the last ice age (about 10,000 years ago) the reformed land (The land bridge to Europe went) reverted to Northern forest modified by what my college tutor described as 'Mexican bathwater'. Insofar as the gulf stream originates off the coast of Mexico and is warm. This has the effect of changing the mix of native trees from mainly pines to favour more broad leaved species. Oak, Ash, Willow etc. The only thing that prevents most of lowland UK reverting to mixed forest is the presence of man. If some disaster whiped out the human population in the UK then within fifty years it would be back to forest. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: 17 June 2007 01:14 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) Teo Zenios wrote: > Quite a bit of the wood they cut is stuff they planted a long time > ago. The really old trees tend to be in national parks and they do not > get cut down as far as I know. If you have never been to the US there > are huge areas with nothing but trees, we have 300M people but there > is plenty of unused land still (unlike old Europe). Not sure why we > even import trees from Canada, must be cheaper I guess. I am still not sure why Canada imports Trees too. Ikea comes to mind. All we have around here is the cheap MFB stuff. > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Jun 16 23:42:47 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 05:42:47 +0100 Subject: Strange VT50 Decscope Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023011@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Yes, just like all those other Heath(Robinson)kits produced about that time. Ros -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 16 June 2007 22:33 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Strange VT50 Decscope > > Hi > I vaguely remember a rumour about a cheap kit terminal to go with > the Heathkit LSI-11. > The boards are that paper based stuff you see in consumer electronics. The thing that struck me about the PCBs in the VT5x was that they're single-sided with a _lot_ of wire links. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 17 02:49:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 03:49:55 -0400 Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: <200706170427.AAA07846@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4671D608.9090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <015001c7aefc$14fff9a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706161410.KAA13036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <5D4863C7-65E6-4EF4-963C-E6D67FB87A4A@neurotica.com> <200706170427.AAA07846@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Jun 17, 2007, at 12:19 AM, der Mouse wrote: >>> Really? I thought vector displays normally use electrostatic >>> deflection, whereas raster displays normally use magnetic >>> deflection. >> There's certainly nothing about either raster or vector methodologies >> that implies or precludes either type of deflection. > > No, not strictly. But when it comes to moving large distances fast, > I'd rather be driving electrostatic than magnetic, partly because the > capacitor formed by deflection plates stores less energy than the > inductor formed by a deflection yoke, partly because I'd rather > have to > generate a current spike than a voltage spike. Point taken. ;) I was speaking strictly. (something that ALWAYS gets me in trouble with the missus!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert at irrelevant.com Sun Jun 17 03:49:09 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:49:09 +0100 Subject: Dial-up suppliers In-Reply-To: <126999.76976.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <126999.76976.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706170149i2fcbfec2v8de96b4d41972957@mail.gmail.com> On 17/06/07, Andrew Burton wrote: > Urgh... my dial-up ISP of about 4 years has recently had a change in policy. Instead of a monthly payment of ?14.99, Boltblue.com have decided to make it free + local telephone charges (to telephone company). > This means paying Boltblue nothing and a bill of ?400 to BT :( What a con, are they trying to force me onto broadband?? To be fair, this is probably their only choice. BT have withdrawn their Surftime product from 1st April 2007, and it is this that most ISPs used to provide you with unmetered access. (Were you dialing an 084404* number?) I'd be very surprised if you found any ISP still offering any fixed-rate packages that were not based on Surftime. The telephone network is inherantly charged on a usage-based method; surftime was provided by placing dial-up servers in the local telephone exchanges, so enabling transition to IP based traffic early, without having to send the calls halfway across the country to your ISP's data centre. I imagine this equipment costs a lot to maintain compared to the number of users it now has.. Broadband is obviously the way to go, I'm afraid. But if you are wedded to dial-up, your best bet is to try and find an ISP with a geographic access number, and then try and find a calls package that allows unlimited calls and doesn't specifically exclude ISP numbers (the BT packages DO exclude them.) and doesn't have a F.U.P. that will trip you up either.. If it's simply that you want/need serial access to a ppp/slip server and currently use a modem/dial-up to accomplish that, then a terminal server could give you that locally, linked that to a standard broadband modem/router. (I've got an old iolan+ on my LAN that I press into service occasionally for exactly this..) You can get broadband for less than the ?14.99 you are paying now. For instance, my ISP prices starts at ?9.99 for unlimited broadband if you are in the right area. (If you go this route, and wish to quote me - irrelevant at ukonline.co.uk - then we both get a month free.) If you have Sky TV, then you can get service for free! HTH, Rob. From cheri-post at web.de Sun Jun 17 05:49:48 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 12:49:48 +0200 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) Message-ID: <2053402268@web.de> Hey Sridhar, is that a DEC 7000 or a VAX 7000 on one of your pictures ? Just out of couriosity... Regards, Pierre > > > Most of the hardware hasn't been cabled up yet, and the hardware that's > actually running isn't pictured because it's my network core and I won't > put pictures of it on the internet for security reasons... BUT... > > Here are pictures of my machine room. It's a work in progress, but it > shows what I've done to reinforce the floor. > > Because I've *decidedly* exceeded the floor loading capacity. > > Peace... Sridhar > _____________________________________________________________________ Der WEB.DE SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! http://smartsurfer.web.de/?mc=100071&distributionid=000000000066 From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Jun 17 04:56:45 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:56:45 +0100 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46738830.8080307@gmail.com> <01df01c7b03b$a516ea90$f0fea8c0@alpha> <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <1182074205.24253.31.camel@elric> On Sat, 2007-06-16 at 13:40 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Because most houses are not in an earthquake zone, building with wood is > faster and cheaper, and the US and Canada is full of forests. In the UK we have a lot of timber from Forestry Commission plantations, but we still build with brick, concrete or stone. My house up north has 3' thick stone walls. Anything less and it would blow away in the winter storms. What Floridians call a tornado, we call "January". Basically for a month and a bit, we get a minimum of 70mph winds, anything up to 120 and we've recorded sustained wind speeds of nearly 150mph. Makes it hard to hang your washing out to dry; you need to use mole grips instead of clothes pegs. Gordon From rbazzano at alice.it Sun Jun 17 06:02:49 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:02:49 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <001001c7b0cf$0be0a8e0$2201a8c0@ufficio> >I get 1MHz on pin 24 of the FDC chip (as expected) and about 250kHz on >pin 26 (read clock). There is twice this frequency (500kHz) on pin 11 of >the LM361. Frequeny on pin 26 is missing. >More interestingly I've checked the supplies to the LM361. I get +12V on >pin 1 (+ve supply), +5V on pin 14 (output stage +ve supply) _and_ -9.5V >on pin 6. >So there is a -ve supply (I'd half-suspected there was, knowing that >other HP drive units which use a load of transsitors + an LM361 as the >VCO/PLL also have a -ve supply). I've not yet discovered where it comes >from, it must be generated on the controller board (my guess is that >those 2 metal-can transsitors at the front left corner have somethign to >do with it). Bingo!!! In my unit there is not a -9.5V on pin 6: I have 0V on that pin. So the problem should be the missing -9.5V. A few more investigations around the LM361 chip: - on input 1 there is always around 3 volt - on input 2 there is a signal from 0 to 3 volt when the drive reads a disk - both strobe 1 and strobe 2 are high (4-5 volt, I don't remember) - there is +12V on pin 1, +5V on pin 14, and 0V on pin 6 as told before. Roberto From rbazzano at alice.it Sun Jun 17 06:08:37 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:08:37 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <001601c7b0cf$db24a840$2201a8c0@ufficio> >A quick look at the PCB (and I'll admit I've not removed it, only looked >for likely signals) suggests the -ve supply comes as follows : > >The master clock (8 MHz oscillator package) is divided down to 500kHz by >the 'b' side of the '393 next to it, then divided down further to >31.25kHz by tghe 'a; side of that chip. > >The 'a' and 'b' sections of the '26 next to that are the drivers for the >-ve supply. Yo ucan't see any obvious signal at the output of the 'a' >section. it may well drive the base of a transsitor or something (it is >an open-collector output, so this would be OK). There is a very low signal on a output of the 7426: a very clear digital signal but oscillating from 0 to 1V only. It's drawing the base of one 2N3904. May be it's ok because it's open-collector or not, I'm not sure. >The 4 transistors in front of the power conenctor are some kind of >totem-pole output stage producing a 12V p-p square wave with a freqeucny >of 31.25kHz from this signal (and the 12V supply input, of course). >In front of that are a couple of electrolytic caps and some diodes. These >form a charge pump circuit, giving the -ve supply. You should see -9.5V >on the right hand (not earthed) end of the front-most capacitor of the >pair. Ok, I'll check all components in that part of circuit. I've already replaced all 2N3904 and 2N3906 transistors, but only one 2N2222. May be it's the other that's defective.... ;-) Also, I'll re-check voltage on capacitor, but as I told I already didn't see any -V, so probably it's actually at 0 Volt. Thank you very much: you are of very great help. Roberto From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 17 10:24:16 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? In-Reply-To: <200706170041.43853.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C683@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <015001c7aefc$14fff9a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <200706161410.KAA13036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200706170041.43853.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200706171526.LAA11061@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> (And of course no amount of drive electronics work can add >> deflection plates to a tube that doesn't have them.) > Puttin' em on the outside won't work, eh? Hmm, interesting idea. The final anode conductor may shield the beam from the field in some circumstances, if it doesn't, that may work. You'd need substantially higher deflection voltages, though, to get sufficiently high field strengths to be useful. der Mouse From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 17 12:24:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:24:13 -0700 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2007 at 13:40, Teo Zenios wrote: > Because most houses are not in an earthquake zone, building with wood is > faster and cheaper, and the US and Canada is full of forests. I'm not sure that I parsed that statement right. Building with wood in an earthquake zone is far easier than building with brick and stone, at least given local codes. Were I to build a house with, say, brick, state earthquake building codes would require me to run rebar through the walls to ensure that they don't disintegrate during a temblor. Wood structures have a lot more "give" and if tied securely to the foundation (required by current code) will ride out most quakes with minimal damage (other than the nails popping out of the sheetrock and cracks showing in plaster). The quakes on the Pacific coast states would probably exact a much higher toll in property damage and human life if structures were constructed of masonry. Codes also require treated lumber where the structure is in contact with the ground or masonry. With adquate maintenance, there's no reason that a correctly-constructed wooden structures in most places shouldn't last several hundred years. Some of the warmer states have serious problems with insects, however. When it comes to adding on to or modifying a structure, it's hard to beat wood. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 17 12:41:59 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:41:59 -0600 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46757267.4000307@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Building with wood in an earthquake zone is far easier than building > with brick and stone, at least given local codes. Were I to build a > house with, say, brick, state earthquake building codes would require > me to run rebar through the walls to ensure that they don't > disintegrate during a temblor. I live where you can sleep though a earthquake. :) The biggest loss of life will not be the west coast of the USA when the next big quake hits -- they know about them. Some where under the Mississippi river there are several big faults. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 17 12:48:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:48:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <002901c7b061$6d7ad030$2201a8c0@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 16, 7 11:58:08 pm Message-ID: > Anyway, here (http://www.hparchive.com/bench_briefs.htm) I found a few > documents with almost all hp parts cross-reference. FWIW, much of my equivalents list came out of Bench Breifs. I had no idea they were online, I will have to take a look. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 17 13:11:31 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:11:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <001601c7b0cf$db24a840$2201a8c0@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 17, 7 01:08:37 pm Message-ID: > > >A quick look at the PCB (and I'll admit I've not removed it, only looked > >for likely signals) suggests the -ve supply comes as follows : I've now taken my unit apart, and spent the afternoon investigating the controller board (for my own interest, I hasten to add :-)) I was right aobut the clock, The -ve PSU is driven by the QD output of the 'a' section of that '393. I assuem this is present and correct (31.25 kHz). It drives one input of each of sections 'a' and 'b' of the '26. The other inputs are tied high (to +5V). This is an open-collector buffer. The 4 transsitors I thought were the driver are. The otuput of that goes to a 2-diode, 2-capacitor charge pump circuit. A very similar circuit was used in some other drive units -- I think the 9133A uses something like it (with '06 buffers, not '26?)> HP did actually publish that part of the cirucit -- I have a paper copy of the 3.5" disk driv eservice data that includes the PSU schematics, including this circuit, but not the clock generator/divider (which is, however, trivial to trace). I don't know if there's anything applicable on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ but i might be worth taking a look if you get stuck. > There is a very low signal on a output of the 7426: a very clear digital > signal but oscillating from 0 to 1V only. It's drawing the base of one > 2N3904. > May be it's ok because it's open-collector or not, I'm not sure. That sounds correct. The emitter of that 2N3904 is grounded. so you'll only see 1 diode-drop of swing there. It's pulled up to +12V by an 8.2k resistor, that's what provides the base current for the 2N3904 when the output is turned off. > > >The 4 transistors in front of the power conenctor are some kind of > >totem-pole output stage producing a 12V p-p square wave with a freqeucny > >of 31.25kHz from this signal (and the 12V supply input, of course). > >In front of that are a couple of electrolytic caps and some diodes. These > >form a charge pump circuit, giving the -ve supply. You should see -9.5V > >on the right hand (not earthed) end of the front-most capacitor of the > >pair. > > Ok, I'll check all components in that part of circuit. Do you have a 'scope? If so, look at the collecttors, coveniently on the metal cans, of the 2N2222 or 2N2907 (they;re linked together). You should see a 12V p-p square wave here (switching between ground and +12V essentially. If not, suspect the transistors, If that signal is prensent, check the charge pump compoentns. > I've already replaced all 2N3904 and 2N3906 transistors, but only one > 2N2222. May be it's the other that's defective.... ;-) > Also, I'll re-check voltage on capacitor, but as I told I already didn't see > any -V, so probably it's actually at 0 Volt. Now I've looked at the PCB, I can confirm these 2 points are linked by a PCB trace. If there's voltage on the capacitor nad not on the LM361, you've got an opne-circuit there, but I think that's very unlikely. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 14:03:06 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:03:06 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <2053402268@web.de> References: <2053402268@web.de> Message-ID: <4675856A.2050008@gmail.com> Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Hey Sridhar, > > is that a DEC 7000 or a VAX 7000 on one of your pictures ? Just out of couriosity... VAX. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 14:07:55 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:07:55 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <46757267.4000307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> <46757267.4000307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4675868B.4000203@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Building with wood in an earthquake zone is far easier than building >> with brick and stone, at least given local codes. Were I to build a >> house with, say, brick, state earthquake building codes would require >> me to run rebar through the walls to ensure that they don't >> disintegrate during a temblor. > > I live where you can sleep though a earthquake. :) > The biggest loss of life will not be the west coast of > the USA when the next big quake hits -- they know about them. > Some where under the Mississippi river there are several big faults. How about New York City and the Ramapo Fault? It's caused problems in the past. There's a lot of unreinforced masonry in NYC. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 17 14:55:41 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 12:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 17 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > When it comes to adding on to or modifying a structure, it's hard to > beat wood. When it comes to modifying, it sure would be handy if it were available in "standard" sizes. 2x4 is NOT 2x4, and has changed MANY times. When the second section of my house was added on in 1919, the size of the studs was not an exact match. And the pieces used for the additions in the 1950s are very different in size. Even a sheet of 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch plywood is getting hard to find. It has only shrunk about 1/32?, but that is still enough to get in the way of mixing old and new. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 17 15:00:53 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <46757267.4000307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> <46757267.4000307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070617125905.Q54505@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 17 Jun 2007, woodelf wrote: > I live where you can sleep though a earthquake. :) > The biggest loss of life will not be the west coast of > the USA when the next big quake hits -- they know about them. > Some where under the Mississippi river there are several big faults. Yep. When the San Andreas finally goes, everything east of it will slide into the Atlantic. OB_CC: Where can you get plywood that matches the Northstar Horizon? The "home" stores don't even have the right thickness! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 17 14:58:47 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:58:47 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200706171558.47331.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 17 June 2007 15:55, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > When it comes to adding on to or modifying a structure, it's hard to > > beat wood. > > When it comes to modifying, it sure would be handy if it were available in > "standard" sizes. 2x4 is NOT 2x4, and has changed MANY times. > > When the second section of my house was added on in 1919, the size of the > studs was not an exact match. And the pieces used for the additions in > the 1950s are very different in size. > > Even a sheet of 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch plywood is getting hard to find. It > has only shrunk about 1/32?, but that is still enough to get in the way of > mixing old and new. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Yeah! I'd like to be able to buy a damn 2x4 that was actually 2 inches by 4 inches...! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 17 16:08:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:08:44 -0700 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <200706171558.47331.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net>, <200706171558.47331.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4675406C.22853.58E1C260@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jun 2007 at 15:58, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Yeah! I'd like to be able to buy a damn 2x4 that was actually 2 inches by 4 > inches...! It's called a "rough cut" 2x4 and is actually 2x4 inches, albeit with a finish that will tear your hands up in nothing flat. The reduced dimensions result from planing to size (called S4S for "surfaced 4 sides". I often buy S2S hardwood lumber for projects because it's cheaper than S4S and I own a planer. But since current practice seems to be framing with "green" studs (not kiln-dried), it's hard to say exactly *what* the final dimensions will be. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 17 16:10:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:10:13 -0700 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <20070617125905.Q54505@shell.lmi.net> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <46757267.4000307@jetnet.ab.ca>, <20070617125905.Q54505@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <467540C5.31721.58E31FBE@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jun 2007 at 13:00, Fred Cisin wrote: > OB_CC: Where can you get plywood that matches the Northstar Horizon? > The "home" stores don't even have the right thickness! You might want to try a woodworker's store, such as Woodcrafters. What's the thickness that you need? Cheers, Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jun 17 16:09:08 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:09:08 -0300 Subject: Raster Scan (or LCD Panel) Used As Vector Display? References: Message-ID: <018c01c7b123$fc9c6c70$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Gettting down to smaller units, the Vectrex was certainly magnetic. The > HP9100 calcualtor (if that counts) is electrostatic As far as I know, all arcade machines used magnetic deflection. So they could use "normal" tubes, only changing the yoke. Hmm, I have a vectrex :oD From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jun 17 16:10:45 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:10:45 -0300 Subject: Simulated CP/M-68K? References: <46741FDE.9070400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <01eb01c7b124$c4cee1a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Thanks! Adding dumps of the programmable parts from the machines that you > have > to your web site would seem to be a good thing independent of any > simulation efforts. In arcade machines, this is already done in MAME. But it would be great for old computers and any kind of gear. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jun 17 16:13:47 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:13:47 -0300 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation References: <4672EAD3.2000807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01ec01c7b124$c7b20460$f0fea8c0@alpha> > We're sorry, because you've unknowingly violated a federal directive by > selling this device. You're under arrest. You have the right to remain > silent... Maybe not for throwing away? :o) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 17 16:26:47 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <4675406C.22853.58E1C260@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net>, <200706171558.47331.rtellason@verizon.net> <4675406C.22853.58E1C260@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070617142214.E54505@shell.lmi.net> > > Yeah! I'd like to be able to buy a damn 2x4 that was actually 2 inches by 4 > > inches...! On Sun, 17 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's called a "rough cut" 2x4 and is actually 2x4 inches, albeit with > a finish that will tear your hands up in nothing flat. The reduced > dimensions result from planing to size (called S4S for "surfaced 4 > sides". I often buy S2S hardwood lumber for projects because it's > cheaper than S4S and I own a planer. But, do they really need to plane more off than they used to? I can remember when S4S was 1 5/8" x 3 5/8". And inside my walls there are 2" x 4" S4Ss. Oh, well. I guess that it is like selling disks based on their unformatted capacity - a 2.8M ED disk is called "2.88" by IBM, and was called "4 meg" by NeXT. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 17 16:41:51 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:41:51 -0600 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <200706171558.47331.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> <200706171558.47331.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4675AA9F.80000@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Even a sheet of 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch plywood is getting hard to find. It >> has only shrunk about 1/32?, but that is still enough to get in the way of >> mixing old and new. Stupid metric here in Canada. I like real inches for my wood construction. >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > Yeah! I'd like to be able to buy a damn 2x4 that was actually 2 inches by 4 > inches...! The fine print says 'before drying'. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 17 17:34:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 16:34:18 -0600 Subject: Apple ][gs -- how to tell ROM version without booting? Message-ID: Subject says it all. I have a ][gs Woz Edition but I read on the net that there are various ROM versions. How can I tell what ROM version I have without booting it up? I don't have the necessary additional hardware to power it on and see the screen or type into it (no RGB cable and no keyboard). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From josefcub at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 17:58:15 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:58:15 -0500 Subject: Apple ][gs -- how to tell ROM version without booting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920706171558y6cb99e7bpbcd2c4b6097ba93f@mail.gmail.com> You can use the RCA connector to hook the IIgs up to a TV or composite monitor, to power it up... But, from memory and my collection: The ROM 03 is easiest to tell apart because its NVRAM battery is in a plastic cage, and is user-replaceable. the ROM 00 and ROM 01 had soldered-on batteries. There are differences in the board layouts as well, but I don't have mine handy to take photos and illustrate. Some ROM 01 boards are "stealth"; that is they have Apple IIe connectors for power, keyboard, and LEDs to be retrofitted into an Apple IIe's case. Other "non stealth" board has the solder pads, but no connectors. FWIW, if you have a ROM 00, it's only going to be good as a fast Apple IIe. They didn't have enough memory onboard to run GS/OS, and the ROMs didn't have the right firmware in them. Turning it on, a ROM 00 is distinguishable because it doesn't say the revision on the boot screen. A ROM 01 and 03 does say what it is, when first turned on. Josef ...who needs to hook up his IIgs machines again. On 6/17/07, Richard wrote: > Subject says it all. I have a ][gs Woz Edition but I read on the net > that there are various ROM versions. How can I tell what ROM version > I have without booting it up? I don't have the necessary additional > hardware to power it on and see the screen or type into it (no RGB > cable and no keyboard). > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 18:15:34 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:15:34 -0400 Subject: warning about dealing with Government Liquidation In-Reply-To: <4672F00F.10860.4FD7D959@cclist.sydex.com> References: <336028.73653.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4672F00F.10860.4FD7D959@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > > When I was a kid, I used to deal with the John Meshna > > company. They sold great electronic surplus. > > Supposedly, the government once sold a lot of > > Sidewinder missile IR seeker heads to them, which they > > then sold to hobbyists. These were highly classified > > at the time, and this was a big boo-boo. Meshna > > turned over their buyer records, and the government > > recovered the parts. > > Hey, I remember the sales circular! I was sore tempted to buy one... They recovered only a fraction of the seeker heads. They still circulate in military collectibles collections. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Jun 17 18:26:06 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple ][gs -- how to tell ROM version without booting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jun 2007, Richard wrote: > Subject says it all. I have a ][gs Woz Edition but I read on the net > that there are various ROM versions. How can I tell what ROM version > I have without booting it up? I don't have the necessary additional > hardware to power it on and see the screen or type into it (no RGB > cable and no keyboard). Here are pictures of the ROM01 and ROM03 boards: http://www.apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/Pics/IIgsMotherboardPics/IIgsRom01motherboard.jpg http://www.apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/Pics/IIgsMotherboardPics/IIgsRom03motherboard.jpg The differences are noticeable, between the 01 and 03 boards. You may not be able to tell the difference between the 00 and 01 boards without connecting it to a monitor. As another user said, just hook up a composite video cable to a TV or monitor. The ROM 00 won't identify itself, but the 01 and 03 will. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 17 19:21:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:21:18 -0600 Subject: Apple ][gs -- how to tell ROM version without booting? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:26:06 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Mike Loewen writes: > Here are pictures of the ROM01 and ROM03 boards: > > http://www.apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/Pics/IIgsMotherboardPics/IIgsRom01mother board.jpg > http://www.apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/Pics/IIgsMotherboardPics/IIgsRom03mother board.jpg Based on this, I believe I have a ROM 01 motherboard. It has a memory expansion card in it that appears fully populated. Does it display the amount of memory visible on startup? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From josefcub at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 19:39:18 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:39:18 -0500 Subject: Apple ][gs -- how to tell ROM version without booting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920706171739y297fe37dj6cbe2a1db48b675b@mail.gmail.com> On 6/17/07, Richard wrote: > Based on this, I believe I have a ROM 01 motherboard. It has a memory > expansion card in it that appears fully populated. Does it display > the amount of memory visible on startup? Unfortunately, no. You've got to have an Apple ADB keyboard to see that (enter the NVRAM setup screens by hitting Ctrl-OpenApple-Escape, and select the 'RAM Disk' to do so). -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 20:20:44 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sabre IPI interface hard drives Message-ID: <107322.16332.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've recently come into ownership of some Seagate 97229 1.2GB IPI interface hard drives. I just don't have any equipment that can talk to IPI drives. So, I was hoping to be able to convert these drives to work on SMD. Since these look and seem almost identical to the CDC/Seagate/Imprimis drives that I use already, I thought it would be a simple interface board swap. Granted, I don't have any 1.2gig drives, mine are 9720 8xx mb drives. So, here's what I tried. I tried swapping both boards (with believed good boards from a dead disk 8xx drive). The main logic board from the 8xxmb drive fits just fine - one of the connectors underneath has fewer pins, but it mates up. I was hoping that this would just mean the extra heads on the HDA would simply be unused. Wishful thinking I know, but it doesn't work at all - the power supply won't come on - this must cause a dead short. So, tried swapping back the original logic and interface boards, and the drive spins up fine, comes ready and seems OK. I swapped in the control/status panel from the 8xx mb drive - this works just fine, and the one I swapped in has the full LCD and keypad - which work properly. Tried swapping just the interface boards, this time the drive displays a Fault on powerup, and while I can get it to spin like this, it never comes ready. I even tried swapping the firmware ROMs between the boards, still doesn't work. Now, I am imagining here that the incompatibilities in parts are likely because I am using boards and parts from a different capacity of drive - I know that the logic from a smaller drive would never work properly on a larger one, I was just hoping that it might let me use some of the surfaces. I don't have an SMD interface 1.2gb drive to try this with - so I figured I would ask - has anyone changed the interface of one of these Sabre drives before? I can't imagine how the HDA would be different between a 1.2gb IPI and a 1.2GB SMD, but you never know. I've had luck before swapping controllers between IDE and SCSI drives, and occasional luck going between drives of slightly different capacity. What machines used IPI disks? I know that an IPI controller was available for Sun3 VME based machines (of which I have only ONE). Don't see anything listed in the field guide about a qbus or unibus IPI controller. What about larger Vaxen? -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 17 21:55:37 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 20:55:37 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:39:18 -0500. <9e2403920706171739y297fe37dj6cbe2a1db48b675b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <9e2403920706171739y297fe37dj6cbe2a1db48b675b at mail.gmail.com>, "Josef Chessor" writes: > On 6/17/07, Richard wrote: > > Based on this, I believe I have a ROM 01 motherboard. It has a memory > > expansion card in it that appears fully populated. Does it display > > the amount of memory visible on startup? > > Unfortunately, no. You've got to have an Apple ADB keyboard to see > that (enter the NVRAM setup screens by hitting Ctrl-OpenApple-Escape, > and select the 'RAM Disk' to do so). Anyone got an Apple ADB keyboard laying around they'd like to offload? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 22:51:00 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 23:51:00 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46760124.6000003@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> When it comes to adding on to or modifying a structure, it's hard to >> beat wood. > > When it comes to modifying, it sure would be handy if it were available in > "standard" sizes. 2x4 is NOT 2x4, and has changed MANY times. > > When the second section of my house was added on in 1919, the size of the > studs was not an exact match. And the pieces used for the additions in > the 1950s are very different in size. > > Even a sheet of 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch plywood is getting hard to find. It > has only shrunk about 1/32?, but that is still enough to get in the way of > mixing old and new. Basically my entire house was built in 1928, so it's all really 2x4". And there isn't any plywood. It's all floorboards. And plaster with wood lath. Problem is that getting full-cut lumber is damn near impossible nowadays, and putting in new outlets, etc. is hard because of the plaster walls. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 17 15:44:44 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 16:44:44 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) Message-ID: <0JJS002DNS9Q7IK5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:00:53 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Fred Cisin writes: > >OB_CC: Where can you get plywood that matches the Northstar Horizon? >The "home" stores don't even have the right thickness! > That grade is for real carpentry not home despot wonder projects. The stuff used was real 3/4" finish grade with what appears to be oak veneer (mine is). The originals were fairly tough veneer and well fitted. Mitered corners and two cleats in the corner for a bit of stiffness. The front edge has a routed slot on the inside top and two sides to slide over the front pannel plate, The slot is 9/64 maybe 5/32" wide. Most of the early machines came with the dark stain wood but I'd like to find a metal one (less RFI). One of my NS* Horizon is wood cover and the other is missing the cover so I have a Lexan cover plate to allow airflow. Allison From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 16:08:09 2007 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: manualsplus.com has 50% off all manuals right now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Richard wrote: > I just received email from the people running this business I > mentioned the other day . They are in the > process of trying to sell off the business, so they are currently > selling all manuals at 50% off. Website is MIA. Any other means for reaching them? E-Mail address? -- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 18 01:08:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 02:08:12 -0400 Subject: manualsplus.com has 50% off all manuals right now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CEA755D-27A6-4438-B9F3-B106A740EBD6@neurotica.com> On Jun 17, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I just received email from the people running this business I >> mentioned the other day . They are in >> the >> process of trying to sell off the business, so they are currently >> selling all manuals at 50% off. > > Website is MIA. Any other means for reaching them? E-Mail address? I just discovered that myself...I had a list of manuals I was going to order from them, but now their web server gives dead air. If you happen to get ahold of them, please share info. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 18 01:11:55 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 23:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <0JJS002DNS9Q7IK5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJS002DNS9Q7IK5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20070617230715.I61646@shell.lmi.net> > >OB_CC: Where can you get plywood that matches the Northstar Horizon? > >The "home" stores don't even have the right thickness! On Sun, 17 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: > That grade is for real carpentry not home despot wonder projects. > The stuff used was real 3/4" finish grade with what appears to be oak > veneer (mine is). The originals were fairly tough veneer and well > fitted. Mitered corners and two cleats in the corner for a bit of > stiffness. The front edge has a routed slot on the inside top and > two sides to slide over the front pannel plate, The slot is 9/64 > maybe 5/32" wide. Most of the early machines came with the dark > stain wood but I'd like to find a metal one (less RFI). At one point Northstar was buying at Ashby Lumber, but I don't know for sure that that was for the Horizon. > One of my NS* Horizon is wood cover and the other is missing the > cover so I have a Lexan cover plate to allow airflow. There seem to be a LOT of missing Horizon covers! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 01:23:52 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 02:23:52 -0400 Subject: manualsplus.com has 50% off all manuals right now In-Reply-To: <3CEA755D-27A6-4438-B9F3-B106A740EBD6@neurotica.com> References: <3CEA755D-27A6-4438-B9F3-B106A740EBD6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <467624F8.7090907@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 17, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> I just received email from the people running this business I >>> mentioned the other day . They are in the >>> process of trying to sell off the business, so they are currently >>> selling all manuals at 50% off. >> >> Website is MIA. Any other means for reaching them? E-Mail address? > > I just discovered that myself...I had a list of manuals I was going to > order from them, but now their web server gives dead air. If you happen > to get ahold of them, please share info. How's this for google-fu? Go to google, put in manualsplus.com, and click Cached. The first page gives phone and snail-mail contact info. Peace... Sridhar From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Jun 18 02:51:48 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:51:48 +0100 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <01eb01c7b124$c4cee1a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <46741FDE.9070400@bitsavers.org> <01eb01c7b124$c4cee1a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <1182153108.24253.41.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-06-17 at 18:10 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > In arcade machines, this is already done in MAME. But it would be great > for old computers and any kind of gear. Did any of the CPUs we know and love, like the PDP-11 CPUs, find their way into commercial games machines? I know a lot of the Atari vector stuff had maths boxes based on AMD bit-slice parts. It seems like the J11 processor would have been a good fit for some of the more advanced games. Gordon From rbazzano at alice.it Mon Jun 18 04:57:13 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:57:13 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <000901c7b18f$0c001480$2201a8c0@ufficio> Good news: I found the complete service manual of 82901 and 82902 drives. It contains full schematics and detailed description of the circuit. I'll scan it and post it asap. Thx. Roberto From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 18 06:07:31 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:07:31 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) Message-ID: <0JJT00LCYW7HHKW5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 23:11:55 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> >OB_CC: Where can you get plywood that matches the Northstar Horizon? >> >The "home" stores don't even have the right thickness! > >On Sun, 17 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: >> That grade is for real carpentry not home despot wonder projects. >> The stuff used was real 3/4" finish grade with what appears to be oak >> veneer (mine is). The originals were fairly tough veneer and well >> fitted. Mitered corners and two cleats in the corner for a bit of >> stiffness. The front edge has a routed slot on the inside top and >> two sides to slide over the front pannel plate, The slot is 9/64 >> maybe 5/32" wide. Most of the early machines came with the dark >> stain wood but I'd like to find a metal one (less RFI). > >At one point Northstar was buying at Ashby Lumber, but I don't know for >sure that that was for the Horizon. > >> One of my NS* Horizon is wood cover and the other is missing the >> cover so I have a Lexan cover plate to allow airflow. > >There seem to be a LOT of missing Horizon covers! After about three to four years the glue dries out and you have a kit of cover. ;) Glue and clamps restore it nicely. Allison From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jun 18 07:15:39 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:15:39 -0300 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? References: <46741FDE.9070400@bitsavers.org><01eb01c7b124$c4cee1a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <1182153108.24253.41.camel@elric> Message-ID: <03a401c7b1a2$87ae16a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Did any of the CPUs we know and love, like the PDP-11 CPUs, find their > way into commercial games machines? I know a lot of the Atari vector > stuff had maths boxes based on AMD bit-slice parts. You can take a look on MAME page that has some listings, you can find also any kind of strange CPU in arcade machines. Very crazy stuff! :o) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 07:29:55 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:29:55 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <1182153108.24253.41.camel@elric> References: <46741FDE.9070400@bitsavers.org> <01eb01c7b124$c4cee1a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <1182153108.24253.41.camel@elric> Message-ID: On 6/18/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Sun, 2007-06-17 at 18:10 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > In arcade machines, this is already done in MAME. But it would be great > > for old computers and any kind of gear. > > Did any of the CPUs we know and love, like the PDP-11 CPUs, find their > way into commercial games machines? I would be interested to learn if this ever happened. As far as I can tell (hardly authoritative), the arcade industry bypassed the T-11, probably primarily due to cost and availability. The Z-80, 6502, and 6809 were favorites in the 8-bit realm, but when they needed something with a bit more horsepower, I don't know what was common besides the 68000 (as used in "Xenophobe", among others). > I know a lot of the Atari vector > stuff had maths boxes based on AMD bit-slice parts. Yep. I helped a friend fix his Battlezone with a couple of 2901s I desoldered from a dead KA730 board. > It seems like the J11 processor would have been a good fit for some of > the more advanced games. Perhaps, but it wasn't a cheap chip. 20 years ago, I could afford used F-11-based gear (11/23, 11/24) because it ran around $300 for a barebones or lightly-loaded system (disks and controller extra, etc). I couldn't touch J-11 stuff because it was still in use commercially. In the mid-1980s, the 68000, then 68020 was just too cheap compared to the J-11, I'd estimate. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 18 07:51:01 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <1182153108.24253.41.camel@elric> from Gordon JC Pearce at "Jun 18, 7 08:51:48 am" Message-ID: <200706181251.l5ICp1th005250@floodgap.com> > > In arcade machines, this is already done in MAME. But it would be great > > for old computers and any kind of gear. > > Did any of the CPUs we know and love, like the PDP-11 CPUs, find their > way into commercial games machines? I know a lot of the Atari vector > stuff had maths boxes based on AMD bit-slice parts. > > It seems like the J11 processor would have been a good fit for some of > the more advanced games. J11, no, but I know some of the games like APB and Paperboy used a T11. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't be humble ... you're not that great. -- Golda Meir ------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 08:13:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:13:36 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <200706181251.l5ICp1th005250@floodgap.com> References: <1182153108.24253.41.camel@elric> <200706181251.l5ICp1th005250@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 6/18/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > J11, no, but I know some of the games like APB and Paperboy used a T11. Interesting. I'll have to track down the schematics to Paperboy. My brother was quite good at that one, but I never played it much. It'll be interesting to compare that CPU board design to some of the other stuff of the era to see if they came up with any clever tricks. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 18 08:19:57 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 06:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jun 18, 7 09:13:36 am" Message-ID: <200706181319.l5IDJvUM015142@floodgap.com> > > J11, no, but I know some of the games like APB and Paperboy used a T11. > > Interesting. I'll have to track down the schematics to Paperboy. My > brother was quite good at that one, but I never played it much. > > It'll be interesting to compare that CPU board design to some of the > other stuff of the era to see if they came up with any clever tricks. I was always puzzled about the choice (once I knew what a T11 was). Other than that, it's a 6502 and POKEY and "other stuff" on boards of that generation, which you would expect from Atari, but not a T11. Memory is coming back about other games -- 720 and Super Sprint were others. This was before they went to the 68K for Xybots, Gauntlet, etc. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? --------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 18 08:10:45 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:10:45 -0500 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070618080941.06c87678@mail> At 02:55 PM 6/17/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >When it comes to modifying, it sure would be handy if it were available in >"standard" sizes. 2x4 is NOT 2x4, and has changed MANY times. As they say about computer standards: Standards are great! There's so many to choose from. At 03:00 PM 6/17/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >OB_CC: Where can you get plywood that matches the Northstar Horizon? >The "home" stores don't even have the right thickness! What size and composition is it? I bet you can find it. At 02:58 PM 6/17/2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Yeah! I'd like to be able to buy a damn 2x4 that was actually 2 inches by 4 >inches...! What for? Easy of calculation? You might be able to find a lumber yard that makes their own. You can certainly get it from the wreckage of an old building. I have a pile of dimensional 2x6 circa 1885 virgin Wisconsin pine wasting away here... At 04:08 PM 6/17/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I often buy S2S hardwood lumber for projects because it's >cheaper than S4S and I own a planer. Yes, I do that, too. Then you're free to make your house as non-standard and as custom as you like. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 08:35:04 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:35:04 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <200706181319.l5IDJvUM015142@floodgap.com> References: <200706181319.l5IDJvUM015142@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 6/18/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I was always puzzled about the choice (once I knew what a T11 was). Other > than that, it's a 6502 and POKEY and "other stuff" on boards of that > generation, which you would expect from Atari, but not a T11. Hmm... Atari commonly used the 6502 as the "main" processor, then other devices for things like the "math box" (2901-based 16-bit vector engine) for Battlezone, Star Wars, etc., so what's the T-11 doing in Paperboy? > Memory is coming back about other games -- 720 and Super Sprint were others. > This was before they went to the 68K for Xybots, Gauntlet, etc. That's more than I would have guessed. Sounds like there was a window in which the T-11 made more sense than the 68000, but that it was a short window. -ethan From rbazzano at alice.it Mon Jun 18 06:31:12 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:31:12 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: <000901c7b18f$0c001480$2201a8c0@ufficio> Message-ID: <001701c7b19c$cb9e1d20$2201a8c0@ufficio> >Good news: I found the complete service manual of 82901 and 82902 drives. >It >contains full schematics and detailed description of the circuit. >I'll scan it and post it asap. Here you can download the full service manual: http://www.z80ne.com/82901-90031_HP_82901_&_82902_Service_Manual_complete.pdf It's uploading now: it'll be ready in 10 minutes (it's 37MB size). I sent it to HPMuseum also. Thank you. Roberto From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 18 07:46:15 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:46:15 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:29:55 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 6/18/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> On Sun, 2007-06-17 at 18:10 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> >> > In arcade machines, this is already done in MAME. But it would be great >> > for old computers and any kind of gear. >> >> Did any of the CPUs we know and love, like the PDP-11 CPUs, find their >> way into commercial games machines? > >I would be interested to learn if this ever happened. As far as I can >tell (hardly authoritative), the arcade industry bypassed the T-11, >probably primarily due to cost and availability. The Z-80, 6502, and >6809 were favorites in the 8-bit realm, but when they needed something >with a bit more horsepower, I don't know what was common besides the >68000 (as used in "Xenophobe", among others). The T-11 offers PDP-11 archectecture but it's not very fast and not much for availability outside DEC As other than the FALCON card or KXT-11. If any of the pdp-11 machines made it to games I'd expect it would have been a F11 (LSI-11/23) chipsets as they were faster and available before the T-11. >> I know a lot of the Atari vector >> stuff had maths boxes based on AMD bit-slice parts. > >Yep. I helped a friend fix his Battlezone with a couple of 2901s I >desoldered from a dead KA730 board. > >> It seems like the J11 processor would have been a good fit for some of >> the more advanced games. > >Perhaps, but it wasn't a cheap chip. 20 years ago, I could afford >used F-11-based gear (11/23, 11/24) because it ran around $300 for a >barebones or lightly-loaded system (disks and controller extra, etc). >I couldn't touch J-11 stuff because it was still in use commercially. > >In the mid-1980s, the 68000, then 68020 was just too cheap compared to >the J-11, I'd estimate. Same for the 6502/6581x series and they were fast enough for the price. Games for the most part were judging from their construction a very price sensitive product. Did the RISC CPUs (arm, strongarm, and friends) make it in games? Allison From rbazzano at alice.it Mon Jun 18 08:15:48 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:15:48 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <002301c7b1aa$c9d67420$2201a8c0@ufficio> >Do you have a 'scope? If so, look at the collecttors, coveniently on the >metal cans, of the 2N2222 or 2N2907 (they;re linked together). You should >see a 12V p-p square wave here (switching between ground and +12V >essentially. If not, suspect the transistors, If that signal is prensent, >check the charge pump compoentns. Fixed!!!! I replaced 2N2907, recalibrated 500 Khz frequency, and now there is -10V. The drive now works like a charm. Thank you very much to all, and expecially to Tony that was of very big help. Roberto From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 18 09:38:52 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> from Allison at "Jun 18, 7 08:46:15 am" Message-ID: <200706181438.l5IEcqWo013820@floodgap.com> > > In the mid-1980s, the 68000, then 68020 was just too cheap compared to > > the J-11, I'd estimate. > > Same for the 6502/6581x series and they were fast enough for the price. Actually, I see a lot more Z80-based games than 6502 or 68000. Ready supplies and familiarity with most contemporary programmers, I would expect. Not that there aren't surfeits of 6502 and 68K games, of course. > Did the RISC CPUs (arm, strongarm, and friends) make it in games? Data East used it quite a bit, but I haven't seen it used as much as other architectures (MIPS has appeared in a number of high end titles too). Sega still uses a lot of SuperH-based systems (particularly NAOMI, basically a Dreamcast on steroids). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: Blazing E-mail Signatures -------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 18 09:41:15 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jun 18, 7 09:35:04 am" Message-ID: <200706181441.l5IEfF4F015696@floodgap.com> > > I was always puzzled about the choice (once I knew what a T11 was). Other > > than that, it's a 6502 and POKEY and "other stuff" on boards of that > > generation, which you would expect from Atari, but not a T11. > > Hmm... Atari commonly used the 6502 as the "main" processor, then > other devices for things like the "math box" (2901-based 16-bit vector > engine) for Battlezone, Star Wars, etc., so what's the T-11 doing in > Paperboy? Communications and I/O (via POKEY), mostly. The T11 was doing the heavy lifting and the 6502 handled grunt work. It may have also had a role in sound (again via POKEY) but it's been a while since I looked at how it was laid out. > > Memory is coming back about other games -- 720 and Super Sprint were others. > > This was before they went to the 68K for Xybots, Gauntlet, etc. > > That's more than I would have guessed. Sounds like there was a window > in which the T-11 made more sense than the 68000, but that it was a > short window. Relatively short, I would say no more than two or three years. Still, a number of well-known titles used it. I don't know of any other manufacturer that used any PDP-11 architecture in any other game other than Atari Games, however. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality. -- de Gaultier --- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 09:52:10 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:52:10 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <200706181438.l5IEcqWo013820@floodgap.com> References: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200706181438.l5IEcqWo013820@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 6/18/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Actually, I see a lot more Z80-based games than 6502 or 68000. Ready > supplies and familiarity with most contemporary programmers, I would expect. > Not that there aren't surfeits of 6502 and 68K games, of course. Sure. I think the 6502 was heavily favored by Atari (for obvious reasons) and not many other vendors. The 6809 (Defender, et al.) was, I think, more popular; but I agree, the Z-80 was exceedingly popular. It was powerful, inexpensive, and there were lots of folks with lots of experience to make code that performed well. There were plenty of 8080-based games in the black-and-white era, as well - those were the vendors that moved up to the Z-80 later. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 18 09:53:51 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <200706181441.l5IEfF4F015696@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Jun 18, 7 07:41:15 am" Message-ID: <200706181453.l5IErp2t014872@floodgap.com> > > > I was always puzzled about the choice (once I knew what a T11 was). Other > > > than that, it's a 6502 and POKEY and "other stuff" on boards of that > > > generation, which you would expect from Atari, but not a T11. > > > > Hmm... Atari commonly used the 6502 as the "main" processor, then > > other devices for things like the "math box" (2901-based 16-bit vector > > engine) for Battlezone, Star Wars, etc., so what's the T-11 doing in > > Paperboy? > > Communications and I/O (via POKEY), mostly. The T11 was doing the heavy > lifting and the 6502 handled grunt work. It may have also had a role in > sound (again via POKEY) but it's been a while since I looked at how it was > laid out. Clarification: the *6502* is doing comm and I/O. The T11 is the "main" processor. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- armadillo, n. the act of providing weapons to a Spanish pickle. ------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 18 10:07:01 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jun 18, 7 10:52:10 am" Message-ID: <200706181507.l5IF71dU015274@floodgap.com> > > Actually, I see a lot more Z80-based games than 6502 or 68000. Ready > > supplies and familiarity with most contemporary programmers, I would expect. > > Not that there aren't surfeits of 6502 and 68K games, of course. > > Sure. I think the 6502 was heavily favored by Atari (for obvious > reasons) and not many other vendors. Not just Atari, however. Data East used the 6502 quite a bit too early on (Disco No. 1 is an example), and the N2A03-based Nintendo games (NESes in a cabinet) were stealth 6502s. > The 6809 (Defender, et al.) was, > I think, more popular; Mostly with Williams, and to a lesser extent Namco. Joust, Sinistar, Robotron ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies. ------------------ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jun 18 10:23:40 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:23:40 +0100 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4676A37C.2040000@dunnington.plus.com> On 18/06/2007 13:46, Allison wrote: > Did the RISC CPUs (arm, strongarm, and friends) make it in games? Nintendos use ARM/Xscale, and so does the Playstation Portable. Sony Playstations are mostly MIPS. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 10:43:06 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:43:06 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <4676A37C.2040000@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4676A37C.2040000@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4676A80A.6030804@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 18/06/2007 13:46, Allison wrote: > >> Did the RISC CPUs (arm, strongarm, and friends) make it in games? > > Nintendos use ARM/Xscale, and so does the Playstation Portable. Sony > Playstations are mostly MIPS. I think they're talking about arcade games, specifically. Anyway, the newer ones are all on POWER-architecture chips. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 18 10:49:29 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:49:29 -0700 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <200706181438.l5IEcqWo013820@floodgap.com> References: <200706181438.l5IEcqWo013820@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 7:38 AM -0700 6/18/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Actually, I see a lot more Z80-based games than 6502 or 68000. Ready >supplies and familiarity with most contemporary programmers, I would expect. >Not that there aren't surfeits of 6502 and 68K games, of course. The Z80 was used in Neo Geo MVS games up until a couple years ago. It is amazing what they accomplished with that platform after the first few years. >Sega still uses a lot of SuperH-based systems (particularly NAOMI, basically >a Dreamcast on steroids). This is what made the Dreamcast such a great system for Arcade ports. You basically had the port done when you released the game in the arcade. Name any other console with that many *good* arcade ports! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Jun 18 10:52:08 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:52:08 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070618115203.012d60a8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: >In article <9e2403920706171739y297fe37dj6cbe2a1db48b675b at mail.gmail.com>, > "Josef Chessor" writes: > > > On 6/17/07, Richard wrote: > > > Based on this, I believe I have a ROM 01 motherboard. It has a memory > > > expansion card in it that appears fully populated. Does it display > > > the amount of memory visible on startup? > > > > Unfortunately, no. You've got to have an Apple ADB keyboard to see > > that (enter the NVRAM setup screens by hitting Ctrl-OpenApple-Escape, > > and select the 'RAM Disk' to do so). > >Anyone got an Apple ADB keyboard laying around they'd like to offload? I believe I do - I'd have to check the attic, tho, to be sure. Dunno if it comes with a cable - would an S-Video cable work? Let me know if you want me to dig it out. Just pay shipping. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 10:52:40 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:52:40 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <4676A80A.6030804@gmail.com> References: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4676A37C.2040000@dunnington.plus.com> <4676A80A.6030804@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/18/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I think they're talking about arcade games, specifically. I certainly have been. > Anyway, the newer ones are all on POWER-architecture chips. Interesting. I haven't dug into arcade game guts newer than about 1990, but I have noticed with MAME and friends that ROM images have gotten *enormous* compared to "classic" video games (multi-megabytes of ROM vs a few Kbytes). More speed equals more shapes equals more storage, especially if you want to pre-compute textures, etc., for faster rendering. I'm sure doubling the ROM space on an arcade machine is cheaper than bumping up the CPU speed. It's an execellent mileux for demonstrating how to trade space for speed, like we used to do with 8-bit home computer games by substituting sometimes-largish lookup tables for screen address translation or SIN/COS. This is just on a grander scale. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 18 11:00:16 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:00:16 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <4676A37C.2040000@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4676A37C.2040000@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200706181200.16525.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 18 June 2007 11:23, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 18/06/2007 13:46, Allison wrote: > > Did the RISC CPUs (arm, strongarm, and friends) make it in games? > > Nintendos use ARM/Xscale, and so does the Playstation Portable. Sony > Playstations are mostly MIPS. The PS3 is a IBM Cell proc (PowerPC), the XBOX360 uses a triad of PPC cores, and the Nintendo Gamecube (possibly Wii also) use a PPC chip. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jun 18 11:00:13 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:00:13 -0300 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? References: <200706181438.l5IEcqWo013820@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <004101c7b1c1$cdd01880$f0fea8c0@alpha> > The Z80 was used in Neo Geo MVS games up until a couple years ago. It is > amazing what they accomplished with that platform after the first few > years. Z80 is just the sound processor. The main processor is a 68000. > This is what made the Dreamcast such a great system for Arcade ports. You > basically had the port done when you released the game in the arcade. > Name any other console with that many *good* arcade ports! Not only dreamcast, but almost all videogames derived arcade machines. - Namco has a boardset based on Playstation 1 - Konami has a boardset based on Playstation 2 (and some bemani machines uses the entire PS2 inside! - The Chiriro hardware is xbox based (take a look at outrun 2006 on arcade and xbox) - Some machines uses N64/Gamecube based hardware - Saturn had a boardset called ST-V, but it was cartridge based www.system16.com has tons of info on all kinds of boards. You'll loose 2 or 3 hours of your life, but very pleasant ones :o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jun 18 11:03:55 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:03:55 -0300 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? References: <200706181319.l5IDJvUM015142@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <004c01c7b1c2$8674ecd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > That's more than I would have guessed. Sounds like there was a window > in which the T-11 made more sense than the 68000, but that it was a > short window. From http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=769 PCB : A042571 ATARI SYSTEM II CPU Main CPU : T11 @ 10 MHz (DEC 21-17311-02) Sound CPU : M6502 2.2 MHz Sound chip : YM2151 @ 3.579545 MHz, 2 x Pokey @ 1.789772 MHz, TMS5220 @ 625 KHz Oscillators : 14.31818 & 20.000 VLSI : 645 V D727B, VGC7205-0672, 137304-2002 [40pin DIP, row 7] Other Chips : 8645 137430-001 [40pin DIP, row 6/row 7] Protection Chip : Slapstic 137412-1** F.A.Q. Video resoution : 512 x 384 Interesting that there were other games beyond that: 720, Accelerator, APB, Championship Sprint, Paperboy and Super Sprint. Never stopped to know what a T11 was! From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jun 18 11:12:33 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:12:33 -0500 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <200706181438.l5IEcqWo013820@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4676AEF1.4060301@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Sega still uses a lot of SuperH-based systems (particularly NAOMI, >> basically >> a Dreamcast on steroids). > > This is what made the Dreamcast such a great system for Arcade ports. > You basically had the port done when you released the game in the > arcade. Name any other console with that many *good* arcade ports! And this is why some games are *still* being released (in Japan) for Dreamcast, because they keep making NAOMI arcade machines (shooters, mostly). The release schedule is once every 18 months or so, but that's not bad for a system that was declared dead in 2003. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Jun 18 11:12:53 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:12:53 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <46760124.6000003@gmail.com> References: <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <002d01c7b03d$6eb49310$0b01a8c0@game> <46750BCD.23352.58143796@cclist.sydex.com> <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070618120509.0538d0b8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words: >Basically my entire house was built in 1928, so it's all really 2x4". And >there isn't any plywood. It's all floorboards. And plaster with wood lath. >Problem is that getting full-cut lumber is damn near impossible nowadays, >and putting in new outlets, etc. is hard because of the plaster walls. My house was built around 1880, and it's such a bodge anyway (both electricity & internal plumbing were run about 10-15 years *after* it was built) that for some electric & networking I ran conduit & external boxes screwed into the wall/stud [1]... ... but where I had access to both sides of the wall (say, going into the basement) I gutted the backside of the wall, marked out where I wanted my new outlets & networking stuff to be routed, took a "zip-tool" (mine's made by Dremel - a circular router/cutting device) and a carbide blade, routed holes through the lath & plaster, affixed the electrical / networking boxen & then just re-drywalled the back side of the wall when I was done. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] That is, until I can gut the room(s) completely & rewire, reinsulate & drywall it right. Of course, when I do, I will rewire for RS-232 as well! ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 18 11:34:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:34:46 -0400 Subject: manualsplus.com has 50% off all manuals right now In-Reply-To: <467624F8.7090907@gmail.com> References: <3CEA755D-27A6-4438-B9F3-B106A740EBD6@neurotica.com> <467624F8.7090907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 18, 2007, at 2:23 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> I just received email from the people running this business I >>>> mentioned the other day . They are >>>> in the >>>> process of trying to sell off the business, so they are currently >>>> selling all manuals at 50% off. >>> >>> Website is MIA. Any other means for reaching them? E-Mail address? >> I just discovered that myself...I had a list of manuals I was >> going to order from them, but now their web server gives dead >> air. If you happen to get ahold of them, please share info. > > How's this for google-fu? > > Go to google, put in manualsplus.com, and click Cached. The first > page gives phone and snail-mail contact info. My google-fu is reasonably strong, but I guess I was looking for a less-snail-maily alternative, like finding out when their online ordering system would be back up. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 18 11:50:10 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <200706181200.16525.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Jun 18, 7 12:00:16 pm" Message-ID: <200706181650.l5IGoAmX010916@floodgap.com> > The PS3 is a IBM Cell proc (PowerPC), the XBOX360 uses a triad of PPC > cores, and the Nintendo Gamecube (possibly Wii also) use a PPC chip. The Wii is also PPC, yes. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: The E-mail Signature Who Loved Me ------------------------------ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 18 11:51:11 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:51:11 -0700 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <4676B7FF.40801@bitsavers.org> > Did any of the CPUs we know and love, like the PDP-11 CPUs, find their > way into commercial games machines? Atari System II used the T11 (a giant step backwards from the 68K in the System I IMHO). From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 18 11:52:42 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 18, 7 08:49:29 am" Message-ID: <200706181652.l5IGqgHm010770@floodgap.com> > > Actually, I see a lot more Z80-based games than 6502 or 68000. Ready > > supplies and familiarity with most contemporary programmers, I would > > expect. > > Not that there aren't surfeits of 6502 and 68K games, of course. > > The Z80 was used in Neo Geo MVS games up until a couple years ago. > It is amazing what they accomplished with that platform after the > first few years. Sound only, though. The main CPU in the NeoGeo is a 68K. > > Sega still uses a lot of SuperH-based systems (particularly NAOMI, > > basically a Dreamcast on steroids). > > This is what made the Dreamcast such a great system for Arcade ports. > You basically had the port done when you released the game in the > arcade. Name any other console with that many *good* arcade ports! The Dreamcast remains my favourite modern-era console, and really epitomizes "being ahead of its time." I think it merits a "cool" exception to the 10-year rule. As you say, things like Crazy Taxi run just like the arcade, because the code (with minor changes or home-play modes at most) is just about the same! Still need to put up my DC server farm :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 18 11:54:18 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070618115203.012d60a8@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Jun 18, 7 11:52:08 am" Message-ID: <200706181654.l5IGsInG010840@floodgap.com> > Dunno if it comes with a cable - would an S-Video cable work? A straight-thru S-video cable will work just fine. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Shell scripting: the ultimate open source software. ------------------------ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 18 11:55:37 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:55:37 -0700 Subject: manualsplus.com has 50% off all manuals right now Message-ID: <4676B909.3080707@bitsavers.org> Some coordination may be in order. It sounded like Richard was going to buy some Tek graphics manuals. I bought most of the orignal 85xx service manuals they had to fill in the holes on bitsavers. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 18 11:59:26 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:59:26 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <4675406C.22853.58E1C260@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <200706171558.47331.rtellason@verizon.net> <4675406C.22853.58E1C260@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706181259.27085.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 17 June 2007 17:08, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But since current practice seems to be framing with "green" studs > (not kiln-dried), it's hard to say exactly *what* the final > dimensions will be. Or the final topology! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 18 12:01:04 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:01:04 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <20070617142214.E54505@shell.lmi.net> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <4675406C.22853.58E1C260@cclist.sydex.com> <20070617142214.E54505@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200706181301.04718.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 17 June 2007 17:26, Fred Cisin wrote: > Oh, well. ?I guess that it is like selling disks based on their > unformatted capacity - a 2.8M ED disk is called "2.88" by IBM, and was > called "4 meg" by NeXT. I have some boxes that had "1.44s" in them branded IBM and which were labeled "2.0MB"... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 18 12:15:09 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:15:09 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070618080941.06c87678@mail> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070618080941.06c87678@mail> Message-ID: <200706181315.09930.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 18 June 2007 09:10, John Foust wrote: > At 02:58 PM 6/17/2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Yeah! I'd like to be able to buy a damn 2x4 that was actually 2 inches by > > 4 inches...! > > What for? Easy of calculation? Among other things. > You might be able to find a lumber yard that makes their own. OTOH I have one friend with a sawmill and another talking about getting one. :-) > You can certainly get it from the wreckage of an old building. Recycling old lumber is a big thing in these parts, and I'm sure in other places as well. > I have a pile of dimensional 2x6 circa 1885 virgin Wisconsin pine wasting > away here... Too bad I can do nothing about that at this point in time. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 18 12:27:31 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:27:31 -0600 Subject: manualsplus.com has 50% off all manuals right now In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:34:46 -0400. Message-ID: They say their web site has had problems since Friday and should be operational again tomorrow. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 18 12:19:09 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:19:09 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200706181438.l5IEcqWo013820@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200706181319.09283.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 18 June 2007 10:52, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/18/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Actually, I see a lot more Z80-based games than 6502 or 68000. Ready > > supplies and familiarity with most contemporary programmers, I would > > expect. Not that there aren't surfeits of 6502 and 68K games, of course. > > Sure. I think the 6502 was heavily favored by Atari (for obvious > reasons) and not many other vendors. The 6809 (Defender, et al.) was, > I think, more popular; but I agree, the Z-80 was exceedingly popular. > It was powerful, inexpensive, and there were lots of folks with lots > of experience to make code that performed well. There were plenty of > 8080-based games in the black-and-white era, as well - those were the > vendors that moved up to the Z-80 later. I actually probably have more familiarity with the z80 than any other part, and was surprised about 10-12 years ago to be talking to a guy about getting paid for that bit of expertise. The job offer was contingent on some sort of a merger deal and who would or wouldn't be willing to relocate to Houston afterwards so it eventually fell through, but it was rather interesting to see some demand for what I'd thought were obsolete skills at that point in time. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 12:32:03 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:32:03 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: <200706181654.l5IGsInG010840@floodgap.com> References: <200706181654.l5IGsInG010840@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4676C193.5030309@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Dunno if it comes with a cable - would an S-Video cable work? > > A straight-thru S-video cable will work just fine. Does the converse work? Can I use ADB cables for S-Video? Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 18 12:24:30 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:24:30 -0400 Subject: 2G SCSI-wide drives Message-ID: <200706181324.30486.rtellason@verizon.net> I have a number of 2G SCSI-wide drives on hand here (68-pin connector), and in conversation with a list member offlist it was suggested that perhaps these might be of use in certain of the older machines that a bunch of you guys have. Anybody interested in taking some of these off my hands? Feel free to drop me a line offlist... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 12:50:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:50:43 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <200706181301.04718.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <4675406C.22853.58E1C260@cclist.sydex.com> <20070617142214.E54505@shell.lmi.net> <200706181301.04718.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4676C5F3.40609@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 17 June 2007 17:26, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Oh, well. I guess that it is like selling disks based on their >> unformatted capacity - a 2.8M ED disk is called "2.88" by IBM, and was >> called "4 meg" by NeXT. > > I have some boxes that had "1.44s" in them branded IBM and which were > labeled "2.0MB"... Indeed. All of the IBM 2.88's I have are labeled 4.0MB. Peace... Sridhar From marvin at west.net Mon Jun 18 13:07:47 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:07:47 -0700 Subject: Computer Flooring Message-ID: <4676C9F3.2CA9A38D@west.net> A friend of mine has about 1200 Sq. Ft. of 2' x 2' aluminum computer flooring available. They were either made by or provided by "Floating Floor, Inc.". The pedastals and stands are not available. I haven't seen them yet, but can find out more if anyone is interested. Apparently the scrap value is about $20.00 each, so any offer would need to be enough more than that to make it worth while. If anyone is interested, let me know ASAP as these will be going to scrap *very* shortly. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 18 13:18:21 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: <4676C193.5030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <104093.81379.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Dunno if it comes with a cable - would an S-Video > cable work? > > > > A straight-thru S-video cable will work just fine. > > Does the converse work? Can I use ADB cables for > S-Video? I do. It works just fine. They're kinda coily though. -Ian From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 18 13:18:43 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: <4676C193.5030309@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Jun 18, 7 01:32:03 pm" Message-ID: <200706181818.l5IIIhcn015098@floodgap.com> > > > Dunno if it comes with a cable - would an S-Video cable work? > > > > A straight-thru S-video cable will work just fine. > > Does the converse work? Can I use ADB cables for S-Video? Probably ... I guess if you had lots of them lying around doing nothing :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How are you gentlemen? All your base are belong to us! --------------------- From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jun 18 13:24:21 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:24:21 -0700 Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC...Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <200706181315.09930.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070618080941.06c87678@mail> <200706181315.09930.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4676CDD5.4000800@shiresoft.com> I know that this thread started on topic, and I typically ignore of topic threads, but this is getting ridiculous! Come on guys! What do construction techniques, lumber and saw mills have to do with Classic Computers? Gesh! Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 18 June 2007 09:10, John Foust wrote: > >> At 02:58 PM 6/17/2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> >>> Yeah! I'd like to be able to buy a damn 2x4 that was actually 2 inches by >>> 4 inches...! >>> >> What for? Easy of calculation? >> > > Among other things. > > >> You might be able to find a lumber yard that makes their own. >> > > OTOH I have one friend with a sawmill and another talking about getting > one. :-) > > >> You can certainly get it from the wreckage of an old building. >> > > Recycling old lumber is a big thing in these parts, and I'm sure in other > places as well. > > >> I have a pile of dimensional 2x6 circa 1885 virgin Wisconsin pine wasting >> away here... >> > > Too bad I can do nothing about that at this point in time. > > > -- TTFN - Guy From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 13:40:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:40:43 -0400 Subject: Computer Flooring In-Reply-To: <4676C9F3.2CA9A38D@west.net> References: <4676C9F3.2CA9A38D@west.net> Message-ID: <4676D1AB.90300@gmail.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > A friend of mine has about 1200 Sq. Ft. of 2' x 2' aluminum computer flooring > available. They were either made by or provided by "Floating Floor, Inc.". The > pedastals and stands are not available. I haven't seen them yet, but can find > out more if anyone is interested. > > Apparently the scrap value is about $20.00 each, so any offer would need to be > enough more than that to make it worth while. If anyone is interested, let me > know ASAP as these will be going to scrap *very* shortly. If they had the posts and stringers I would have taken them. Alas. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 18 13:55:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:55:58 -0700 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <200706181301.04718.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com>, <20070617142214.E54505@shell.lmi.net>, <200706181301.04718.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <467672CE.8784.5D8E8C62@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jun 2007 at 13:01, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I have some boxes that had "1.44s" in them branded IBM and which were > labeled "2.0MB"... ...and I have some DS2D's labeled "1.0MB". But I fail to see the issue. Consider that, at 250Kb/sec and 300 rev/min, a "720K" diskette has a capacity of 6250 byes/track (that's raw, not accounting for gaps, address marks, CRCs or any of that nonsense). Such a diskette has 160 tracks, so we get 6250*160 = 1 000 000 bytes. For once, the label tells the real truth. How you want to format those million bytes is your problem. ;-) Cheers, Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jun 18 13:57:41 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari 800XL and 1050 disk drive in Delray Beach, FL Message-ID: Please contact Kathy for more information if you're interested: Kathy Knaack As far as I know it is free for the taking. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 14:10:27 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:10:27 -0400 Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC...Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <4676CDD5.4000800@shiresoft.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070618080941.06c87678@mail> <200706181315.09930.rtellason@verizon.net> <4676CDD5.4000800@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4676D8A3.6080206@gmail.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I know that this thread started on topic, and I typically ignore of > topic threads, but this is getting ridiculous! > > Come on guys! What do construction techniques, lumber and saw mills > have to do with Classic Computers? Floor loading capacity for large computers, mostly. Peace... Sridhar From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jun 18 14:30:23 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:30:23 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:41:15 PDT." <200706181441.l5IEfF4F015696@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200706181930.l5IJUNGP032090@mwave.heeltoe.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >> That's more than I would have guessed. Sounds like there was a window >> in which the T-11 made more sense than the 68000, but that it was a >> short window. > >Relatively short, I would say no more than two or three years. Still, a >number of well-known titles used it. I don't know of any other manufacturer >that used any PDP-11 architecture in any other game other than Atari Games, >however. As I recall, they (Atari) would not let us use anything more than a 8mhz 68000. The 10mhz was a stretch. The last game I worked on had 2x 68000's and that was a stretch (it had neat fake stereo sound, however :-) But it never got out of test, sadly. It was fun to play. The GCC games all had 68000's (and I could be wrong about the speed; it was a long time ago). The Vid kids games all were 6800 as I recall (defender, etc...) I bet they were wizards at bumming cycles out of code for that cpu (just as the gcc consumer guys were at the 6502) All the pacman games I saw were z-80 based; including Ms. Pacman. -brad From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 15:22:24 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:22:24 -0400 Subject: Free computer bits in Montreal, Canada Message-ID: <4affc5e0706181322h186790d8h7283a67f1ba8968e@mail.gmail.com> Hello, a few bits that I'd like to get rid of in exchange for empty space that would be more useful to me :-) - A 360k IBM branded full-height floppy drive pulled from an XT, a Tandon TM100-2A - An external 3.5" 720k IBM Type 4865 floppy drive - I think it came from an early IBM portable PC - A german Apple ][e, with serial card, parallel card, disk II card and 2 drives, Microsoft CP/M card, original Apple DOS disks (3.3, some seem to be localised for germany) as well as the CP/M disk(s). I have no idea if it works, but it should. The power supply is for 220V, and I can't see a simple switch to make it take 110V. I assume putting in a regular north american PS would make it work without problem, but I have no idea if the video circuitry is any different - presumable monochrome should work with minor adjustments. This system was brought over to Canada when friends of the family immigrated, and was used with a simple 110-220V transformer. (I myself modified my C64 by swapping a crystal and replacing the PAL VIC-II with an NTSC VIC-II when I moved) Also comes with many Apple-II disks, some for CP/M - the motherboard of an old Apple ][ clone, with Z80 on the MB. Source of chips, if anything. Joe. From charlesmorris at hughes.net Mon Jun 18 15:23:47 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:23:47 -0500 Subject: Finally fixed it! (was: Re: Complete success, OS/8 is up and running :) not so fast...) Message-ID: <9dqd73dib797as8vtskk9g0qroa9ikor7m@4ax.com> After intensive head scratching and hair pulling (accompanied by appropriate curses and a bit of scope and logic analyzer work ;) I finally found the problem with my 8/A this afternoon. First, of course, it was necessary for me to learn exactly how an M8315 CPU card works! The 7483 adder I suspected was not at fault since the logic analyzer always showed the correct outputs vs. inputs. I finally figured out that if the AC incremented properly, which it did, and was not data pattern sensitive, which it was not, that that ruled out almost all of the register circuitry except for a few gates unique to the MA (address) lines. For the curious, it was a bad 74367 (8097) hex buffer chip at E104 - actually only one section was bad, pins 14 -> 13 (which drives the ADD IN 4 line). Although both output enables were sitting low, every output matched its respective input except one... Even though the bit 4 line was a logic 1 (0 volts on that internal bus), the output was stuck at +5V (logic 0), explaining why on the next CPMA load that bit would always clear itself. Eureka... There was no hard short found, and connecting that line through a milliammeter to ground confirmed that only 5 ma would bring it to below .1 volts, so that current was mostly due to the 1K pullup resistor. The inevitable conclusion was that the output of that 74367 section was not able to pull low at all. I managed to change the chip without destroying the board too much and now all addresses increment properly again. Simple TTY print and keyboard echo programs work too :) Incidentally, I have pretty much given up trying to make a workable image with more than one 2 Mb partition on my RL02 drive. Every attempt to build one and boot it either hangs SIMH entirely, or worse yet, causes it to halt simulation with an error message, for some reason that's beyond my understanding. What the heck, 2 Mb is more than enough just to play around with OS/8 and run text adventure games anyway. If anyone can figure this out, I can email you a copy of my (currently working) image for reBUILDing. Of course the system now still won't boot (I can hear the drive head move, and then the RL02 FAULT light comes on) but it's likely the OS/8 image got clobbered when the chip failed and the CPU started writing to odd places. You can't write-protect the pack either, since OS/8 swaps in and out frequently to maintain such a tiny "footprint" in core. Anyhow I'm leaving tonight for three weeks of vacation in sunny Crete so it can just wait until I get home! -Charles >Naturally, I jinxed it by bragging about my success :( > >The next day, the system wouldn't boot and I could see the FAULT >light flicker as the system halted at address 10107. I initially >thought disk drive problems again, or the pack got clobbered >during swap-out for some reason. > >However, a little investigating quickly showed that even the most >basic ten-word TTY check program would not deposit or run. In >fact, when depositing or examining sequential locations I found >the address display would increment from 0200 to 0001. 0577 would >increment to 0400, etc. So something is wrong with address bit 4. >I pulled all the boards from the backplane except the CPU set and >it still does it. Now I've got to fix the hardware! Sigh. > >Meanwhile I have been SIMH-building a new OS/8 image from scratch >for two drives. After much struggle I have the RL20 handler >installed (which has logical drives R20A,B,C,D; the RL21 handler >with R21A-D, and I had to omit the last 20% (the "E" drives on >RL2E) because OS/8 can only allow fifteen handlers and space is >needed for (at least) the R2SY system handler, TTY, SYS and DSK >also... reminds me of Gates' "640K should be enough for anyone". > >-Charles From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 18 15:28:22 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:28:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC...Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <4676CDD5.4000800@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <907999.81518.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Didn't the original pong machine have a wooden case?? I think there were a few computers in the late 70's/early 80's that had wooden cases. Then plastic took over and grew into boring black or grey over the years :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Guy Sotomayor wrote: I know that this thread started on topic, and I typically ignore of topic threads, but this is getting ridiculous! Come on guys! What do construction techniques, lumber and saw mills have to do with Classic Computers? Gesh! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 18 15:48:23 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:48:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <200706181652.l5IGqgHm010770@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <857514.74481.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Crazy Taxi should run exactly like the arcade version (NAOMI) when on the Dreamcast, as both are almost identical. The Dreamcast has 10MB less RAM than the NAOMI board. Alot of the games ported from the arcade to the Dreamcast were because they ran on the NAOMI board. That is why Dreamcast games, in Japan, have continued to appear as they are largely arcade ports. I'm not sure what changes were made in the NAOMI 2 board, and I know nothing about the Lindbergh arcade board. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Sega still uses a lot of SuperH-based systems (particularly NAOMI, > > basically a Dreamcast on steroids). > > This is what made the Dreamcast such a great system for Arcade ports. > You basically had the port done when you released the game in the > arcade. Name any other console with that many *good* arcade ports! The Dreamcast remains my favourite modern-era console, and really epitomizes "being ahead of its time." I think it merits a "cool" exception to the 10-year rule. As you say, things like Crazy Taxi run just like the arcade, because the code (with minor changes or home-play modes at most) is just about the same! Still need to put up my DC server farm :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 18 15:56:03 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:56:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <4676AEF1.4060301@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <367948.85495.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> No, the Dreamcast was ditched by Sega officially in 2001. Sega quietly supported alot of the online games, in Europe atleast, due to some contract or legal jargon somewhere that stated the servers would be up for 7 years. Whilst the remaining Dreamcast servers closed back in Feb this year in Europe, the US servers were switched off around 2004. One of the most recent arcade ports is Last Hope which was out earlier this year in Japan. Regards Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Jim Leonard wrote: Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Sega still uses a lot of SuperH-based systems (particularly NAOMI, >> basically >> a Dreamcast on steroids). > > This is what made the Dreamcast such a great system for Arcade ports. > You basically had the port done when you released the game in the > arcade. Name any other console with that many *good* arcade ports! And this is why some games are *still* being released (in Japan) for Dreamcast, because they keep making NAOMI arcade machines (shooters, mostly). The release schedule is once every 18 months or so, but that's not bad for a system that was declared dead in 2003. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Mon Jun 18 10:29:22 2007 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:29:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 18, 2007 10:52:10 AM Message-ID: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >Sure. I think the 6502 was heavily favored by Atari (for obvious >reasons) and not many other vendors. Atari actually had a good mixture of CPU's, though there was a sort period (very early 80's) where they moved to 6502 reliance (some of it coming out of their PCS development in the late 70's, which was initially intended to be simultaniously designed for arcade use but never panned out because of different display issue needs. The only thing that made the leap out of that was the 6502 and their custom POKEY chip. The closest hardware to the PCS's was Missile Command and Centipede). For a sampling: Quiz Show (1976) used an S2650 CPU. Tank 8 (1976 and the first color game), Destroyer (1977), Drag Race (1977), Pool Shark (1977), Sprint 8 (1977), Super Bug (1977), Triple Hunt (1977), Sky Diver (1978), Fire Truck (1978), Orbit (1978), Smokey Joe (1978), and Monte Carlo (1980) all used the 6800. Arabian (1983) and Kangaroo (1982) used Z80's. I, Robot (1983 - the first 3D/Polygonal game) used a 6809 with supporting 2901 bit slice cpu's for graphics support. The color vector Star Wars also used the 6809. System 1 games (starting in 1984 with Marble Madness) ushered in the 68000 series era, though the System 2 (also in 1984 with 720 and Paperboy) used T11's. Marty >The 6809 (Defender, et al.) was, >I think, more popular; but I agree, the Z-80 was exceedingly popular. >It was powerful, inexpensive, and there were lots of folks with lots >of experience to make code that performed well. There were plenty of >8080-based games in the black-and-white era, as well - those were the >vendors that moved up to the Z-80 later. > >-ethan > From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jun 18 10:38:39 2007 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:38:39 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070618113721.012c5a78@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: >In article <9e2403920706171739y297fe37dj6cbe2a1db48b675b at mail.gmail.com>, > "Josef Chessor" writes: > > > On 6/17/07, Richard wrote: > > > Based on this, I believe I have a ROM 01 motherboard. It has a memory > > > expansion card in it that appears fully populated. Does it display > > > the amount of memory visible on startup? > > > > Unfortunately, no. You've got to have an Apple ADB keyboard to see > > that (enter the NVRAM setup screens by hitting Ctrl-OpenApple-Escape, > > and select the 'RAM Disk' to do so). > >Anyone got an Apple ADB keyboard laying around they'd like to offload? I believe I do - I'd have to check the attic, tho, to be sure. Dunno if it comes with a cable - would an S-Video cable work? Let me know if you want me to dig it out. Just pay shipping. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Jun 18 11:13:43 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:13:43 +0100 Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070618115203.012d60a8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070618115203.012d60a8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1182183223.1820.5.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 11:52 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: > > >In article <9e2403920706171739y297fe37dj6cbe2a1db48b675b at mail.gmail.com>, > > "Josef Chessor" writes: > > > > > On 6/17/07, Richard wrote: > > > > Based on this, I believe I have a ROM 01 motherboard. It has a memory > > > > expansion card in it that appears fully populated. Does it display > > > > the amount of memory visible on startup? > > > > > > Unfortunately, no. You've got to have an Apple ADB keyboard to see > > > that (enter the NVRAM setup screens by hitting Ctrl-OpenApple-Escape, > > > and select the 'RAM Disk' to do so). > > > >Anyone got an Apple ADB keyboard laying around they'd like to offload? > > I believe I do - I'd have to check the attic, tho, to be sure. > > Dunno if it comes with a cable - would an S-Video cable work? I've used s-video cables with Apple keyboards before. Gordon From larry_s_harris at comcast.net Mon Jun 18 15:24:05 2007 From: larry_s_harris at comcast.net (Larry Harris) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:24:05 -0600 Subject: HP firmware identification? Message-ID: <000501c7b1e6$9f3518c0$6601a8c0@LARRY> Do you still have the firmware chips that your identified in your Jul 4th, 2004 note? I'm interested in part number 13307-80037. Larry Harris STAR-TEK star-tek at comcast.net From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 18 16:02:59 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 22:02:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <004101c7b1c1$cdd01880$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <788454.62969.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Not only dreamcast, but almost all videogames > derived arcade machines. > > - Namco has a boardset based on Playstation 1 > Yes, I believe it was known as system21, or something similar. > - Konami has a boardset based on Playstation 2 > (and some bemani machines > uses the entire PS2 inside! Didn't know that. > - The Chiriro hardware is xbox based (take a look at > outrun 2006 on > arcade and xbox) yup. > - Some machines uses N64/Gamecube based > hardware Did they?? I didn't know that either. > - Saturn had a boardset called ST-V, but it was > cartridge based Yup, nicknamed the "Titan" arcade board due to it's ability to handle a fair amount of polygons (500,000 per second) and lots of sprites without slowdown. > www.system16.com has tons of info on all kinds of > boards. You'll loose 2 > or 3 hours of your life, but very pleasant ones :o) Thanks for that link. Will go and lose some hours of my life this weekend... its a bit dangerous now as I need an early night. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jun 18 16:12:07 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:12:07 -0500 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > I, Robot (1983 - the first 3D/Polygonal game) used a 6809 with supporting > 2901 bit slice cpu's for graphics support. The color vector Star Wars > also used the 6809. Surely they didn't use the 6809 for the 3D calculations, did they? I know those games have a lot of optimization (fixed-point, no hidden-line removal, etc.) but they still seem a bit much for a 6809... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 18 16:27:22 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <857514.74481.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from Andrew Burton at "Jun 18, 7 09:48:23 pm" Message-ID: <200706182127.l5ILRMTV016956@floodgap.com> > Crazy Taxi should run exactly like the arcade version (NAOMI) when on the > Dreamcast, as both are almost identical. In arcade mode, yes. However, there are some home-play modes bolted on. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You can't have everything. Where would you put it? -- Steven Wright -------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 18 16:56:13 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <0JJT00LCYW7HHKW5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJT00LCYW7HHKW5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20070618145452.U7305@shell.lmi.net> > >> >OB_CC: Where can you get plywood that matches the Northstar Horizon? > >> >The "home" stores don't even have the right thickness! On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: > After about three to four years the glue dries out and you have a > kit of cover. ;) > Glue and clamps restore it nicely. . . . and, if you encounter a Horizon with a cover made of 23/32" or 11/16" plywood, you will know that it is a modern counterfeit. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 18 16:57:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:57:35 -0600 Subject: manualsplus.com has 50% off all manuals right now In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:55:37 -0700. <4676B909.3080707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4676B909.3080707 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > Some coordination may be in order. It sounded like Richard was going > to buy some Tek graphics manuals. I bought most of the orignal 85xx > service manuals they had to fill in the holes on bitsavers. I went there today and spent too much money, but it was all great stuff on HP and Tektronix terminals. I didn't even look at 85xx stuff, which is their development system stuff. I did score 8051 manual with two DC300A cartridge tapes of the system software tucked into the back of the manual. They have shitloads of HP and Tektronix stuff. Also ask about HP & Tektronix catalogs -- they have a bunch of those and they're not in the online inventory. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 18 17:07:41 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <4676C5F3.40609@gmail.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <4675406C.22853.58E1C260@cclist.sydex.com> <20070617142214.E54505@shell.lmi.net> <200706181301.04718.rtellason@verizon.net> <4676C5F3.40609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070618150525.B7305@shell.lmi.net> > >> Oh, well. I guess that it is like selling disks based on their > >> unformatted capacity - a 2.8M ED disk is called "2.88" by IBM, and was > >> called "4 meg" by NeXT. > > I have some boxes that had "1.44s" in them branded IBM and which were > > labeled "2.0MB"... On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Indeed. All of the IBM 2.88's I have are labeled 4.0MB. The 2.8M diskettes mostly called "4 meg". The 2.8M DRIVES were called "2.88 meg" by IBM, and were called "4 meg" by NeXT. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 18 17:03:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:03:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: <104093.81379.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Jun 18, 7 11:18:21 am Message-ID: > > > > Does the converse work? Can I use ADB cables for > > S-Video? > > I do. It works just fine. They're kinda coily though. I cna't believe either the characteristic impedance or the construction is the same between ADB and S-video cables. Electrically the connections should be the same, but if you use a ADB cable for S-video, you might well get noticeable reflections. IIRC, S-video has 2 ground pins on the connector, and there's nothing to stop them being commoned in the cable. Would that cuase a problem if sucha a cable was used for ADB? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 18 16:48:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 22:48:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <000901c7b18f$0c001480$2201a8c0@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 18, 7 11:57:13 am Message-ID: > > Good news: I found the complete service manual of 82901 and 82902 drives. It > contains full schematics and detailed description of the circuit. Very interestings... I shall keep on investigating the board on my own, though. I find those single-page HP schematics, particularly of something as complex as this, to be very hard to follow... I notice the drive schematic isn't included. No problem, they seem to be standard Tandon TM100-2 drives (IBM PC 360K drives :-)) with the PCB gold-plarted nnd with an HP part number. Electronically they seem identical. Does anyone have a pointer ot the TM100 service manual? I am not looking for schemaitcs, those I have many times over. I am looking for the alignment instrucitons, exploded diagrams, etc. Drive 1 in my 82901 needs a little repair, and I want to see what hte offiical procedure is before I ignore it :-) Does your 82901 have the 36 pin microribbon socket on the back for extra drives? Mine doesn't. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 18 17:04:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:04:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive In-Reply-To: <002301c7b1aa$c9d67420$2201a8c0@ufficio> from "Roberto Bazzano" at Jun 18, 7 03:15:48 pm Message-ID: > Fixed!!!! Excellent! > I replaced 2N2907, recalibrated 500 Khz frequency, and now there is -10V. > The drive now works like a charm. > > Thank you very much to all, and expecially to Tony that was of very big > help fx : blushes You don't need to thank me. I'm just pleased another old HP machine is running again... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 18 17:11:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC...Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <4676D8A3.6080206@gmail.com> References: <46738721.3060204@gmail.com> <20070617124938.H54015@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070618080941.06c87678@mail> <200706181315.09930.rtellason@verizon.net> <4676CDD5.4000800@shiresoft.com> <4676D8A3.6080206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070618151104.B7305@shell.lmi.net> > > I know that this thread started on topic, and I typically ignore of > > topic threads, but this is getting ridiculous! > > Come on guys! What do construction techniques, lumber and saw mills > > have to do with Classic Computers? > > Floor loading capacity for large computers, mostly. and construction details for Horizon cases. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 17:21:48 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:21:48 -0400 Subject: Finally fixed it! (was: Re: Complete success, OS/8 is up and running :) not so fast...) In-Reply-To: <9dqd73dib797as8vtskk9g0qroa9ikor7m@4ax.com> References: <9dqd73dib797as8vtskk9g0qroa9ikor7m@4ax.com> Message-ID: On 6/18/07, Charles wrote: > After intensive head scratching and hair pulling (accompanied by > appropriate curses and a bit of scope and logic analyzer work ;) I > finally found the problem with my 8/A this afternoon. Well done. > Of course the system now still won't boot (I can hear the drive > head move, and then the RL02 FAULT light comes on) but it's likely > the OS/8 image got clobbered when the chip failed and the CPU > started writing to odd places. Hmm... I don't think filesystem problems will cause the Fault light to light up, just problems within the drive. You may need to trace back all of the causes that sum up to "Fault" to see what's going on. > You can't write-protect the pack > either, since OS/8 swaps in and out frequently to maintain such a > tiny "footprint" in core. Unfortunately not. > Anyhow I'm leaving tonight for three weeks of vacation in sunny > Crete so it can just wait until I get home! Kalo Taxithi -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 17:29:34 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:29:34 -0700 Subject: HP firmware identification? In-Reply-To: <000501c7b1e6$9f3518c0$6601a8c0@LARRY> References: <000501c7b1e6$9f3518c0$6601a8c0@LARRY> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706181529s6f6d7725hc8bb14ee05fc662e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/18/07, Larry Harris wrote: > Do you still have the firmware chips that your identified in your Jul 4th, 2004 note? I'm interested in part number 13307-80037. > > Larry Harris > STAR-TEK The PROM images are available here. If you are looking for actual PROMs you probably need to find some blank PROMs and have someone program them with these images. http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/HP/1000_firmware/HP1000Firmware/Readme.txt E-DMI 13307-80036 EA76 13307-80033 (same cksum) 13307-80037 64CA 13307-80034 (same cksum) 13307-80038 D7B8 13307-80035 (same cksum) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 17:42:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:42:38 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 6/18/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > > I, Robot (1983 - the first 3D/Polygonal game) used a 6809 with supporting > > 2901 bit slice cpu's for graphics support. The color vector Star Wars > > also used the 6809. > > Surely they didn't use the 6809 for the 3D calculations, did they? I > know those games have a lot of optimization (fixed-point, no hidden-line > removal, etc.) but they still seem a bit much for a 6809... As mentioned further up in this thread, the Atari vector games had, in effect, a vector math co-processor, the Analogue Vector Generator (AVG) or "math box" built from 2901s to do the heavy lifting. The 8-bit processor fed shapes to the AVG and sounds to the Pokey and handled the yoke/joystick I/O. -ethan From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 18 18:00:50 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:00:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <200706182127.l5ILRMTV016956@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <419100.20825.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Crazy Taxi should run exactly like the arcade > > version (NAOMI) when on the > > Dreamcast, as both are almost identical. > > In arcade mode, yes. However, there are some > home-play modes bolted on. > >-- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * > www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- You can't have everything. Where would you put > it? -- Steven Wright -------- Ahh, yes. I forgot about the extra modes. Crazy Taxi 2 was great with using the Taxi to hit a giant golf ball into the air!!! The giant jump ramp was great too. Bringin this back on topic, and diving into my childhood, what chips were used in Speak & Spell? The bright red/orange childrens speaking/spelling tool from the 80's. Our one was destroyed years ago by my brother who loved taking apart and destroying toys :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 18 18:21:15 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:21:15 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <104093.81379.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070618181942.06ab1a90@mail> At 05:03 PM 6/18/2007, Tony Duell wrote: >I cna't believe either the characteristic impedance or the construction >is the same between ADB and S-video cables. Electrically the connections >should be the same, but if you use a ADB cable for S-video, you might >well get noticeable reflections. >IIRC, S-video has 2 ground pins on the connector, and there's nothing to >stop them being commoned in the cable. Would that cuase a problem if >sucha a cable was used for ADB? See http://www.applefritter.com/node/9214 : "Both ADB and S-Video cables use 4 pins, and are interchangeable. Keep in mind that some S-Video cables are of higher quality than ADB cables, so if you use an ADB cable for S-Video, the signal may not be as good as if you used a proper S-Video cable." "The only difference between an ADB cable and an SVideo cable is that the ground pin and the shell are connected together on the ADB cable, and the ground pin on an SVIDEO cable is not connected to the shell. The only problem this causes is some devices don't detect the cable being plugged in and won't switch to it." - John From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Jun 18 19:05:13 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 01:05:13 +0100 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? References: <200706181438.l5IEcqWo013820@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <005c01c7b205$82ce7ea0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > The Z80 was used in Neo Geo MVS games up until a couple years ago. As the "sound" processor, the main CPU was a 68K. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Jun 18 19:14:39 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 01:14:39 +0100 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> I, Robot (1983 - the first 3D/Polygonal game) used a 6809 with >>supporting 2901 bit slice cpu's for graphics support. The color >>vector Star Wars also used the 6809. > > Surely they didn't use the 6809 for the 3D calculations, did they? >I know those games have a lot of optimization (fixed-point, no >hidden-line removal, etc.) but they still seem a bit much for a >6809... No, the 3D calculations were done by the so called "math box". This is essentially a math co-processor made up of several (4?) AMD bit-slice CPUs. TTFN - Pete. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 19:39:12 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:39:12 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On 6/18/07, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > Surely they didn't use the 6809 for the 3D calculations, did they? > > No, the 3D calculations were done by the so called "math box". This is > essentially a math co-processor made up of several (4?) AMD bit-slice CPUs. Yes, four. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 18 19:46:55 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <655959.2300.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > > Does the converse work? Can I use ADB cables > for > > > S-Video? > > > > I do. It works just fine. They're kinda coily > though. > > I cna't believe either the characteristic impedance > or the construction > is the same between ADB and S-video cables. > Electrically the connections > should be the same, but if you use a ADB cable for > S-video, you might > well get noticeable reflections. I haven't noticed any adverse effects, but then again, I don't sit 2 feet away from my television either. Seems to work OK. Doesn't mean that it's the perfect cable to use, but, it does work. > IIRC, S-video has 2 ground pins on the connector, > and there's nothing to > stop them being commoned in the cable. Would that > cuase a problem if > sucha a cable was used for ADB? I have no idea. I have never used S-video cables for ADB, I always went the other way around (because I have tons of ADB cables...) If you compare the pinouts, and assume that the grounds of an S-video cable were connected together, then the data line and the power switch sense line of the ADB bus would be connected together. No idea if it would work like that, but what would happen when you hit the power switch? Is that signal active low or active high? -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 18 20:33:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:33:59 -0700 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <20070618145452.U7305@shell.lmi.net> References: <0JJT00LCYW7HHKW5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, <20070618145452.U7305@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4676D017.4873.5EFAEFEF@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jun 2007 at 14:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . and, if you encounter a Horizon with a cover made of 23/32" or > 11/16" plywood, you will know that it is a modern counterfeit. You know, if wanted to fake a Horizon case, I'd take a hunk 23/32 sanded shop plywood glue some appropriate veneer on. Easy enough to find and do--you can even get it in self-adhesive varieties for redoing kitchen cabinets. But I prefer bare veneer and good old Weldwood contact cement. Cheers, Chuck From charlesmorris at hughes.net Mon Jun 18 20:59:22 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:59:22 -0400 Subject: RL02 fault (OS/8) Message-ID: >Hmm... I don't think filesystem problems will cause the Fault light to >light up, just problems within the drive. You may need to trace back >all of the causes that sum up to "Fault" to see what's going on. I was trying to talk myself out of that one, but I suspect you're right :^P The problem I was thinking hopefully of was a checksum error caused by an aborted or other improper write... but then again the controller card and disk internal logic board probably do restrict writing by complete sectors? I'll have to download a copy of the RL02 manual from bitsavers to read while I'm sunning on my mom's terrace. Remember also that I had that problem occur once before (on my first boot and before the chip failed) but after powering everything down, removing and reinstalling the pack, powering up and rebooting (shades of Micro$hit!) it did boot to the OS/8 "." prompt and was functional at least to the point of displaying a directory... Anyway it'll be easy enough to write a simple program to display the error word on the Programmer's Panel display and backtrack from there... maybe it's a bad pack. Or a bad cable (I spent hours when I first got this drive trying to figure out why the fault light wouldn't go out, and tracked it down to a faulty clock signal from the controller card. More specifically there was a single hair-fine wire strand sticking out the bottom of my IDC connector where it plugged into the controller card and it was touching a passing trace. The original BERG conn. would not have had a clearance problem (to the butt end of cut cable) there. Although the pack (that I copied my SIMH OS/8 image onto) had no bad blocks on it that I could discern under RT-11, I wonder if there could have been some that make a difference to OS/8. I'm getting out of my depth here. Anyhow when I get home, I'll find out exactly what the error is (I never liked that idiot light precisely because it doesn' t tell you WHAT the fault IS!) -Charles From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 18 21:23:31 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 22:23:31 -0400 Subject: Computer Flooring In-Reply-To: <4676D1AB.90300@gmail.com> References: <4676C9F3.2CA9A38D@west.net> <4676D1AB.90300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706182223.31664.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 18 June 2007 14:40, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Marvin Johnston wrote: > > A friend of mine has about 1200 Sq. Ft. of 2' x 2' aluminum > > computer flooring available. They were either made by or provided > > by "Floating Floor, Inc.". The pedastals and stands are not > > available. I haven't seen them yet, but can find out more if anyone > > is interested. > > > > Apparently the scrap value is about $20.00 each, so any offer would > > need to be enough more than that to make it worth while. If anyone > > is interested, let me know ASAP as these will be going to scrap > > *very* shortly. > > If they had the posts and stringers I would have taken them. Alas. Why don't you just make some up yourself? Get a load of 4x4 and 2x4s and start cutting. I'd have done that with the raised flooring that I ended up abandoning in December, but having worked with raised flooring, I've realize how much it sucks. Overhead cabling is soo much easier and potentially neater. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 18 21:25:42 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 22:25:42 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: <4676C193.5030309@gmail.com> References: <200706181654.l5IGsInG010840@floodgap.com> <4676C193.5030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706182225.42876.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 18 June 2007 13:32, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Dunno if it comes with a cable - would an S-Video cable work? > > > > A straight-thru S-video cable will work just fine. > > Does the converse work? Can I use ADB cables for S-Video? I've never had any trouble using an ADB cable as an s-video cable. I've never tried it the other way around though.... ADB cables are a lot more cheaper and more plentiful than s-video cables... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jun 18 22:39:11 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 22:39:11 -0500 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/18/07, Ensor wrote: >> Hi, >> >> > Surely they didn't use the 6809 for the 3D calculations, did they? >> >> No, the 3D calculations were done by the so called "math box". This is >> essentially a math co-processor made up of several (4?) AMD bit-slice >> CPUs. > > Yes, four. What is a "bit-slice" CPU? How does it differ from, say, the 8086? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Jun 18 22:45:24 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Available - DEC RX-180 AB dual 5-1/4 inch diskette floppy drive. Message-ID: <20070619034524.17555.qmail@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have this DEC RX-180 AB dual 5-1/4 inch diskette floppy drive - why, I don't know. Working condition is unknown. Please make an offer if it suits you to do so. Located in southern California (OC). Paypal accepted! Thanks- Steven T. --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 22:55:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:55:16 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <467753A4.6010605@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 6/18/07, Ensor wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> > Surely they didn't use the 6809 for the 3D calculations, did they? >>> >>> No, the 3D calculations were done by the so called "math box". This is >>> essentially a math co-processor made up of several (4?) AMD bit-slice >>> CPUs. >> >> Yes, four. > > What is a "bit-slice" CPU? How does it differ from, say, the 8086? It's made of bit-slice logic chips. I don't think you can necessarily call them microprocessors. I believe the most popular chips were of the AMD Am2900 family. I've used them myself. They're righteous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit-slice Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 22:55:28 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:55:28 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <467753B0.7080309@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 6/18/07, Ensor wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> > Surely they didn't use the 6809 for the 3D calculations, did they? >>> >>> No, the 3D calculations were done by the so called "math box". This is >>> essentially a math co-processor made up of several (4?) AMD bit-slice >>> CPUs. >> >> Yes, four. > > What is a "bit-slice" CPU? How does it differ from, say, the 8086? It's made of bit-slice logic chips. I don't think you can call them microprocessors. I believe the most popular chips were of the AMD Am2900 family. I've used them myself. They're righteous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit-slice Peace... Sridhar From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 18 18:46:01 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE IBM 3262-B1 and IBM5360 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <321011.73948.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Found in the San Francisco Craigslist: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/zip/354825337.html It's near Folsom CA. Hope someone wants it. Bob From wayne.smith at charter.net Mon Jun 18 23:36:04 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:36:04 -0700 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <200706182254.l5IMsH7R094532@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:50:43 -0400 > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Subject: Re: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4676C5F3.40609 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Sunday 17 June 2007 17:26, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Oh, well. I guess that it is like selling disks based on their > >> unformatted capacity - a 2.8M ED disk is called "2.88" by IBM, and > >> was called "4 meg" by NeXT. > > > > I have some boxes that had "1.44s" in them branded IBM and > which were > > labeled "2.0MB"... > > Indeed. All of the IBM 2.88's I have are labeled 4.0MB. > > Peace... Sridhar > My first iteration of Windows 95 was on 3.5 inch floppy diskettes. At some point, I wanted to make a backup copy on diskettes but couldn't because the file sizes of the Windows distribution floppies was 1.8-1.9MB each. At the time I thought it was some sort of copy protection. I assume they must have been able to format the discs for a higher capacity - close to 2MB. Does anyone know how? From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 23:51:55 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:51:55 -0400 Subject: FREE IBM 3262-B1 and IBM5360 In-Reply-To: <321011.73948.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <321011.73948.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <467760EB.7080708@gmail.com> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Found in the San Francisco Craigslist: > > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/zip/354825337.html > > It's near Folsom CA. Hope someone wants it. God damn it. Too far. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 18 23:53:20 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:53:20 -0400 Subject: manualsplus.com has 50% off all manuals right now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 18, 2007, at 1:27 PM, Richard wrote: > They say their web site has had problems since Friday and should be > operational again tomorrow. It is back up and all is well, FYI. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 23:54:05 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:54:05 -0400 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <4677616D.1080404@gmail.com> Wayne Smith wrote: >> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:50:43 -0400 >> From: Sridhar Ayengar >> Subject: Re: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Message-ID: <4676C5F3.40609 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> On Sunday 17 June 2007 17:26, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Oh, well. I guess that it is like selling disks based on their >>>> unformatted capacity - a 2.8M ED disk is called "2.88" by IBM, and >>>> was called "4 meg" by NeXT. >>> I have some boxes that had "1.44s" in them branded IBM and >> which were >>> labeled "2.0MB"... >> Indeed. All of the IBM 2.88's I have are labeled 4.0MB. >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> > My first iteration of Windows 95 was on 3.5 inch floppy diskettes. At > some point, I wanted to make a backup copy on diskettes but couldn't > because the file sizes of the Windows distribution floppies was > 1.8-1.9MB each. At the time I thought it was some sort of copy > protection. I assume they must have been able to format the discs for a > higher capacity - close to 2MB. > > Does anyone know how? I would assume it's something similar to XDF. Probably not XDF itself though, as that is an IBM thing. You could have made a backup copy on diskettes by using the DOS DISKCOPY command. It would have made a raw copy including the unusual format. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 19 00:08:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 22:08:44 -0700 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> References: <200706182254.l5IMsH7R094532@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <4677026C.408.5FBF8B36@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jun 2007 at 21:36, Wayne Smith wrote: > My first iteration of Windows 95 was on 3.5 inch floppy diskettes. At > some point, I wanted to make a backup copy on diskettes but couldn't > because the file sizes of the Windows distribution floppies was > 1.8-1.9MB each. At the time I thought it was some sort of copy > protection. I assume they must have been able to format the discs for a > higher capacity - close to 2MB. > > Does anyone know how? Uh-yup. Microsoft used a format they called DMF, for about 1.68MB-- 21 sectors per track, with a very small gap between sectors. IBM had a rather more complicated format called XDF, which used one 8K, one 2K, one 1K and one 512 byte sector on a track for about 1.84MB. Handling the DMF format wasn't too hard, although if your drive was marginal, it could create problems. The XDF actually used larger gap sizes, but required special drivers. There was also an XDF format for 5.25 HD that was about 1.6MB and one for 3.5 DSED which was about 3.84MB. If you want to pack an amazing amount of data on a 3.5" DSHD, I believe that there's a program for the Catweasel that will give you something close to 4MB using a few tricks. Cheers, Chuck From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Jun 18 16:35:13 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:35:13 -0400 Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements Message-ID: <004201c7b1f0$8e741c70$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I noticed in another cctech mailing list thread about the NorthStar Horizon case cover replacements. Recently, I procured a NorthStar Horizon which is missing its original wooden case cover and I was looking to either buy an original replacement or make a new one. I did not get a lot of responses to my queries on other forums for a replacement wooden case cover so I am considering fabricating my own. Apparently, it is common for Horizons to have lost their wooden covers over time for many reasons and others have done what I am considering. Has anyone built replacement NorthStar Horizon case covers before and would be willing to build more? They do not look terribly sophisticated to build provided you have access to a table saw and the proper bits. I was planning on just copying the dimensions from another Horizon wooden case cover I already have. If anyone has a spare NorthStar Horizon wooden case cover, has built new ones, or knows how to build a replacement, I would certainly like to hear from you. Please email me or post here. Thank you in advance. Andrew Lynch From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Mon Jun 18 19:19:42 2007 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:19:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <4676AEF1.4060301@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jun 18, 2007 11:12:33 AM Message-ID: <200706190019.l5J0JgaJ006628@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Jim Leonard says: >And this is why some games are *still* being released (in Japan) for >Dreamcast, There's still smaller publishing companies releasing games for it in the US as well. >-- >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ >Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ >A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Tue Jun 19 00:19:22 2007 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:19:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Atari 800XL and 1050 disk drive in Delray Beach, FL In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jun 18, 2007 11:57:41 AM Message-ID: <200706190519.l5J5JMJU009054@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Too late. Sent her an email and recieved the following back: I'm sorry, I didn't know that this is going on a collector's mailing list that get widely distributed. I have not heard any response so I threw them all out in the garbage already couple of weeks ago. Marty > >Please contact Kathy for more information if you're interested: > >Kathy Knaack > >As far as I know it is free for the taking. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 19 00:50:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 01:50:53 -0400 Subject: manualsplus.com has 50% off all manuals right now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7F3A6DDF-6D69-4C81-AD34-0AF979FD03FF@neurotica.com> On Jun 18, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Richard wrote: >> Some coordination may be in order. It sounded like Richard was going >> to buy some Tek graphics manuals. I bought most of the orignal 85xx >> service manuals they had to fill in the holes on bitsavers. > > I went there today and spent too much money, but it was all great > stuff on HP and Tektronix terminals. I didn't even look at 85xx > stuff, which is their development system stuff. I did score 8051 > manual with two DC300A cartridge tapes of the system software tucked > into the back of the manual. > > They have shitloads of HP and Tektronix stuff. Also ask about HP & > Tektronix catalogs -- they have a bunch of those and they're not in > the online inventory. Also, keep in mind that these guys have huge quantities of documentation for electronic test equipment and lab equipment. I too spent too much money with them today, and none of it was even remotely computer-related. I've dealt with those guys several times, and they've made me happy each time. Consider that a plug. ;) (unrelated, just a happy customer, etc etc) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 19 00:52:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 01:52:33 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <3FF3B264-CF9E-4922-B080-B6279BACA93A@neurotica.com> On Jun 18, 2007, at 8:14 PM, Ensor wrote: > >> I, Robot (1983 - the first 3D/Polygonal game) used a 6809 with > >>supporting 2901 bit slice cpu's for graphics support. The color > >>vector Star Wars also used the 6809. > > > > Surely they didn't use the 6809 for the 3D calculations, did they? > >I know those games have a lot of optimization (fixed-point, no > >hidden-line removal, etc.) but they still seem a bit much for a > >6809... > > No, the 3D calculations were done by the so called "math box". This > is essentially a math co-processor made up of several (4?) AMD bit- > slice CPUs. Wow...I'd love to get my hands on the design info for that! There must've been some seriously bright people working on those systems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 19 00:58:14 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 01:58:14 -0400 Subject: odd software request Message-ID: Does anyone have any Chebyshev or Butterworth LC filter design/ analysis software in FORTRAN-II or FORTRAN-IV? (don't ask..) My google-fu is failing me on this one. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 19 01:11:31 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 02:11:31 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Jun 18, 2007, at 11:39 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> > Surely they didn't use the 6809 for the 3D calculations, did >>> they? >>> >>> No, the 3D calculations were done by the so called "math box". >>> This is >>> essentially a math co-processor made up of several (4?) AMD bit- >>> slice CPUs. >> Yes, four. > > What is a "bit-slice" CPU? How does it differ from, say, the 8086? "Bit slice" chips are building blocks that can be used to construct a processor. They typically contain things like an ALU and stuff to help with the decoding of microcode. The neat thing about them is that they can be cascaded to make a processor of any data bus width that you want. The ubiquitous AMD Am2901, for example, is four bits wide. Many 3rd-party disk controllers for DEC machines used two or four of them to implement an 8- or 16-bit processor to handle disk control operations. They've also been used for much more ambitious things: The VAX-11/730 and DECsystem-2020, for example, are both built around Am2901 bit-slice chips, running microcode from fast RAM which implements the VAX and PDP-10 instruction sets, respectively. That microcode is loaded at boot time, from TU58 in the case of the VAX-11/730, or from a TU45 9-track magtape on the DECsystem-2020. Before that microcode is loaded, the machines aren't really VAXen or PDP-10s...as they have no idea how to implement the architecture or execute the instructions, until the microcode is loaded. With a good bit-slice chip like an Am2901, one can build a processor to implement any architecture one wants. Many, many machines were built in this way...I only use the VAX-11/730 and DECsystem-2020 as examples because I have them sitting here. Further, the Am2901 isn't the only bit-slice CPU around...there were many others. Intel made at least one, I think it was the 3002. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 19 01:12:47 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 02:12:47 -0400 Subject: Atari 800XL and 1050 disk drive in Delray Beach, FL In-Reply-To: <200706190519.l5J5JMJU009054@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200706190519.l5J5JMJU009054@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <13F2EA82-4BB5-426D-A0AC-855D91F9B798@neurotica.com> DAMMIT that's disappointing to hear. :-( -Dave On Jun 19, 2007, at 1:19 AM, Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > Too late. Sent her an email and recieved the following back: > > I'm sorry, I didn't know that this is going on a collector's > mailing list > that get widely distributed. I have not heard any response so I > threw them > all out in the garbage already couple of weeks ago. > > > Marty > >> >> Please contact Kathy for more information if you're interested: >> >> Kathy Knaack >> >> As far as I know it is free for the taking. >> >> -- >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage >> Computer Festival >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger http:// >> www.vintage.org >> >> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage >> Computers ] >> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http:// >> marketplace.vintage.org ] >> > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jun 19 01:26:06 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 03:26:06 -0300 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <018e01c7b23a$de421af0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > My first iteration of Windows 95 was on 3.5 inch floppy diskettes. At > some point, I wanted to make a backup copy on diskettes but couldn't > because the file sizes of the Windows distribution floppies was > 1.8-1.9MB each. At the time I thought it was some sort of copy > protection. I assume they must have been able to format the discs for a > higher capacity - close to 2MB. > Does anyone know how? FDRead/FDFormat did that in the glorious DOS days... From wayne.smith at charter.net Tue Jun 19 01:26:59 2007 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:26:59 -0700 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <200706190556.l5J5tMoj099982@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001e01c7b23a$d89047d0$6401a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 22:08:44 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room > (So Far)] > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4677026C.408.5FBF8B36 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 18 Jun 2007 at 21:36, Wayne Smith wrote: > > > My first iteration of Windows 95 was on 3.5 inch floppy > diskettes. At > > some point, I wanted to make a backup copy on diskettes but couldn't > > because the file sizes of the Windows distribution floppies was > > 1.8-1.9MB each. At the time I thought it was some sort of copy > > protection. I assume they must have been able to format > the discs for a > > higher capacity - close to 2MB. > > > > Does anyone know how? > > Uh-yup. Microsoft used a format they called DMF, for about 1.68MB-- > 21 sectors per track, with a very small gap between sectors. IBM had > a rather more complicated format called XDF, which used one 8K, one > 2K, one 1K and one 512 byte sector on a track for about 1.84MB. > > Handling the DMF format wasn't too hard, although if your drive was > marginal, it could create problems. The XDF actually used larger gap > sizes, but required special drivers. There was also an XDF format > for 5.25 HD that was about 1.6MB and one for 3.5 DSED which was about > 3.84MB. > > If you want to pack an amazing amount of data on a 3.5" DSHD, I > believe that there's a program for the Catweasel that will give you > something close to 4MB using a few tricks. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Cool. Great info. Thanks! -W From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 19 03:23:19 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 01:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: demagnetization Message-ID: Can someone point me to schematics for a decent homebrewed demagnetizer? I've accidentally magnetized a bunch of little parts that really shouldn't have been. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 19 04:09:49 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:09:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: demagnetization Message-ID: <614701.29918.qm@web23409.mail.ird.yahoo.com> How did you magnetise them and what little parts are you referring to? - Andrew B (via mobile phone) --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Can someone point me to schematics for a decent homebrewed demagnetizer? > I've accidentally magnetized a bunch of little parts that really shouldn't > have been. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 19 06:20:49 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:20:49 -0500 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> References: <200706182254.l5IMsH7R094532@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200706191023.l5JANaoI024190@hosting.monisys.ca> > My first iteration of Windows 95 was on 3.5 inch floppy diskettes. At > some point, I wanted to make a backup copy on diskettes but couldn't > because the file sizes of the Windows distribution floppies was > 1.8-1.9MB each. At the time I thought it was some sort of copy > protection. I assume they must have been able to format the discs for a > higher capacity - close to 2MB. > > Does anyone know how? Thats Microsofts DMF (Distribution Media Format) - smaller gaps, more sectors (21/track iirc) - ImageDisk can copy them. Smaller gaps mean less room to realign when writing sectors into an existing track. DMF disks are OK for "Distribution Media" because they are written one (presumably in a continuous track) and do not have to be re-written on countless slightly varying drives... Generally you can get more space on a disk by going with a larger sector size (as long as size * #sectors works out to near the end of a track), as this reduces the number of gaps you need. I recall a DOS TSR called "2M" which got nearly 2 Megs of data on a disk by using big (2k iirc) sectors. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 05:52:34 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 03:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <4677616D.1080404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <431457.26242.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > My first iteration of Windows 95 was on 3.5 inch > floppy diskettes. At > > some point, I wanted to make a backup copy on > diskettes but couldn't > > because the file sizes of the Windows distribution > floppies was > > 1.8-1.9MB each. At the time I thought it was some > sort of copy > > protection. I assume they must have been able to > format the discs for a > > higher capacity - close to 2MB. > > > > Does anyone know how? > > I would assume it's something similar to XDF. > Probably not XDF itself > though, as that is an IBM thing. It's called DMF. 1.66 mb if I remember correctly. There are other ways to increase the capacity of floppies though - and with Linux it's quite possible to get 1.75 mb reliably on one. (83 tracks, 21 sectors). -Ian From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jun 19 02:16:23 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:16:23 +0100 Subject: Fault light... In-Reply-To: References: <9dqd73dib797as8vtskk9g0qroa9ikor7m@4ax.com> Message-ID: <1182237383.1313.5.camel@elric> On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 18:21 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... I don't think filesystem problems will cause the Fault light to > light up, just problems within the drive. You may need to trace back > all of the causes that sum up to "Fault" to see what's going on. Ha! I had the opposite problem when I ran up the bottom drive on my PDP-11/73 for the first time in ages. Popped in a disk, shut the drawer, hit "LOAD", let it spin up (it's so much quieter than the top one - maybe I need to check the motor bearings), heard the heads load, no READY light. Hm. Spin down, pack out, check hub etc, pack back in, LOAD, spin up, load heads, no READY. Hm. Get another pack, spin down, change pack, LOAD, spin up, load heads, no READY. WTF? Check the cables, which involves pulling the whole rack forwards and all the junk balanced on top. Then it hit me. No, not something falling off the top of the rack. About six months ago when one of the cars had to go in for its MOT, the ABS diags light didn't come on with the ignition - an instant MOT fail! I only found this out late on the night before it was booked in for its test at 8am. "Bum," I thought, "Where on earth am I going to get a 12v wedge-base bulb at this time of night...?" Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jun 19 03:32:26 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:32:26 +0100 Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements In-Reply-To: <004201c7b1f0$8e741c70$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <004201c7b1f0$8e741c70$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <1182241946.6849.0.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 17:35 -0400, Andrew Lynch wrote: > If anyone has a spare NorthStar Horizon wooden case cover, has built new > ones, or knows how to build a replacement, I would certainly like to hear > from you. Please email me or post here. I'll build some if someone gives me a NorthStar Horizon to play with... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jun 19 03:39:25 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:39:25 +0100 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <4677026C.408.5FBF8B36@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706182254.l5IMsH7R094532@dewey.classiccmp.org> , <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> <4677026C.408.5FBF8B36@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1182242366.6849.7.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 22:08 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Jun 2007 at 21:36, Wayne Smith wrote: > > > My first iteration of Windows 95 was on 3.5 inch floppy diskettes. At > > some point, I wanted to make a backup copy on diskettes but couldn't > > because the file sizes of the Windows distribution floppies was > > 1.8-1.9MB each. At the time I thought it was some sort of copy > > protection. I assume they must have been able to format the discs for a > > higher capacity - close to 2MB. > > > > Does anyone know how? > > Uh-yup. Microsoft used a format they called DMF, for about 1.68MB-- > 21 sectors per track, with a very small gap between sectors. IBM had > a rather more complicated format called XDF, which used one 8K, one > 2K, one 1K and one 512 byte sector on a track for about 1.84MB. I think I've mentioned before the peculiar disk format that Ensoniq used on their 8-bit machines (Mirage and SQ-80 spring to mind) with five 1024-byte sectors and one 512-byte sector. On the Mirage the sample and sequence data lives (mostly) in the 1024-byte sector, and the patch and disk metadata (catalogue etc) live in the 512-byte sectors. The OS is written to the first couple of full tracks, then some of the 512-byte sectors further up the disk. No, I've no idea why. The Mirage sampler is single-sided, the SQ-80 synth is double-sided. No idea why they did that, either. My Mirage has a double-sided drive, like every other one I've seen (even really early ones). When they went to 16 bits, they went with a less bonkers 10 sectors per track, 80 tracks, double-sided disk, but still their own special filesystem. Gordon From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Jun 19 06:55:26 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:55:26 +0100 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <018e01c7b23a$de421af0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> <018e01c7b23a$de421af0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20070619115524.GA15268@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 03:26:06AM -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > FDRead/FDFormat did that in the glorious DOS days... Ahh, bad memories. Hey, I thought, lets use fdformat to make bigger floppies so I have to waste less time swapping disks when I make a backup! Oops. I vaguely recall that as well as cramming more sectors in per track, fdformat and the like would write a couple of extra tracks as well. -- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic "Cynical" is a word used by the naive to describe the experienced. George Hills, in uknot From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 19 08:03:44 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:03:44 -0400 Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: <614701.29918.qm@web23409.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200706191303.l5JD3q64067097@keith.ezwind.net> 40 years ago in the early days of color TV's I worked in a TV repair shop where the tech had taken several close hangers and formed them into a circle and warped several 100 feet of wire around them taped it up and pit a plug on it, it drew some serious power and got warm but did a wonderful job of degaussing picture tubes. For small parts I would go to radio shack and get a bulk tape eraser. later Bob On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:09:49 +0100 (BST), Andrew Burton wrote: >How did you magnetise them and what little parts are >you referring to? - Andrew B (via mobile phone) >--- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > wrote: >> >> Can someone point me to schematics for a decent >homebrewed demagnetizer? >> I've accidentally magnetized a bunch of little parts >that really shouldn't >> have been. >> >> >> -- >> David Griffith >> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu >> >> A: Because it fouls the order in which people >normally read text. >> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >> A: Top-posting. >> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 08:20:02 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: <200706191303.l5JD3q64067097@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <668137.47353.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > >> Can someone point me to schematics for a decent > >homebrewed demagnetizer? > >> I've accidentally magnetized a bunch of little > parts > >that really shouldn't > >> have been. You could try using a degaussing coil, it's used to un-magnetize picture tubes, might work on small parts. Find a junked color TV (bigger the better) and take the degaussing coil out of it. Twist the coil to loop it into a small 5" or so circle, add a power cord, and wrap the stacked layers of the coil in tape. Don't leave it plugged in for more than a couple seconds though! It's not intended to be powered for very long. -Ian From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 19 08:46:34 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:46:34 -0400 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room ( So Far )] In-Reply-To: <4677026C.408.5FBF8B36@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706182254.l5IMsH7R094532@dewey.classiccmp.org> <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> <4677026C.408.5FBF8B36@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706190946.34487.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 19 June 2007 01:08, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Jun 2007 at 21:36, Wayne Smith wrote: > > My first iteration of Windows 95 was on 3.5 inch floppy diskettes. At > > some point, I wanted to make a backup copy on diskettes but couldn't > > because the file sizes of the Windows distribution floppies was > > 1.8-1.9MB each. At the time I thought it was some sort of copy > > protection. I assume they must have been able to format the discs for a > > higher capacity - close to 2MB. > > > > Does anyone know how? > > Uh-yup. Microsoft used a format they called DMF, for about 1.68MB-- > 21 sectors per track, with a very small gap between sectors. IBM had > a rather more complicated format called XDF, which used one 8K, one > 2K, one 1K and one 512 byte sector on a track for about 1.84MB. > > Handling the DMF format wasn't too hard, although if your drive was > marginal, it could create problems. The XDF actually used larger gap > sizes, but required special drivers. There was also an XDF format > for 5.25 HD that was about 1.6MB and one for 3.5 DSED which was about > 3.84MB. > > If you want to pack an amazing amount of data on a 3.5" DSHD, I > believe that there's a program for the Catweasel that will give you > something close to 4MB using a few tricks. The files section of the BBS I used to run, under the section for disk utilities, included a fair pile of stuff that would let you play with all sorts of different floppy formats, most of which would let you stuff more than the "normal" amount of info on them... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Jun 19 09:01:19 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:01:19 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com> I've been loosely following this thread and never heard of a T11 from DEC. So good'ole Google and Bitsavers saves the day, but it get's me thinking. Has anybody done any design's with this processor? Why wasn't this processor used instead of the 6100? Rob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 19 09:29:07 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:29:07 -0700 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: >From: Jim Leonard > >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>On 6/18/07, Ensor wrote: >>>Hi, >>> >>> > Surely they didn't use the 6809 for the 3D calculations, did they? >>> >>>No, the 3D calculations were done by the so called "math box". This is >>>essentially a math co-processor made up of several (4?) AMD bit-slice >>>CPUs. >> >>Yes, four. > >What is a "bit-slice" CPU? How does it differ from, say, the 8086? Hi Bit-slice refers to the fact that the ALU is designed to be stacked for whatever word size you'd like. Most come with chips that are 1, 2,4 or 16 bits wide. Say you wanted a 20 bit computer, 5 ea of a 4 bit wide would do. Also, these are truly microcoded. These usually have there own microcode ROMs and can have any number of bits wide to run them. Often when used for hardware control ( such as disk drive controllers ) many of the bits in the micro code directly control I/O functions so that the processor part could be doing something with data at the same time the I/O was doing something else. The ROM was usually controlled by a chip called an address sequencer. This part usually handled things like conditional jumps, subroutine calls and just sequential addressing. The AMD 2900 series was relative straight forward and seemed like an address sequencer used in any number of todays uP's. The 3000 series sequencer by Intel was a strange beast. It had all kinds of row and column jumps. Every instruction had bits that defned where the next instruction was. It was quite complicated to program and most likely why it was not that popular. I know that there is someplace a design that used 2900 parts to emulate a 8080 processor. Remember, the micro code was a separate structure from the instruction code in the actual 8080 memory. Bit-slice machines were the way to go for speed until more recent times. Now, the time lost in driving external I/O lines between chips means that uP's can actually run much faster. Still, for hardware control, knowing when an instruction executes relative to external hardware can be important. This means that there are still places that bit-slice methods are still needed. Today it is often handled with a FPGA. Although, it looked like one could build most any computer model with these bit-slice chips, most were register oriented and did poorly at creating other computer models, such as stack processors. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Picture this ? share your photos and you could win big! http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 09:33:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:33:29 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/07, Robert Borsuk wrote: > I've been loosely following this thread and never heard of a T11 from > DEC. So good'ole Google and Bitsavers saves the day, but it get's > me thinking. Has anybody done any design's with this processor? Yes (see the thread where it appears in a few video games). DEC used it as a PDP-11-instruction-set-compatible microcontroller. It appears on a few peripheral boards (the RQDX3 comes to mind), and a few other places. For some real boots-on-the-ground history, we turn to Bob Supnik... http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/t11.html (I did not know about his T-11-based RT-11 box - I should ask him about it). > Why wasn't this processor used instead of the 6100? In what? In video games? the 6100 _might_ have been a competetive architecture when it was new in the mid-to-late 1970s, but as competition against an early 8-bit micro, not a 16-bit micro, which the T-11 is. From looking at the Atari line at the time, it seems that they were positioning the T-11 against the Motorola 68000. Presumably there was some engineering or marketing or production reason to go with the T-11 over the 68000, but, as much as I like the PDP-11, I can't imagine what that would be. Perhaps the $10/unit cost that Bob Supnik cites was favorable compared to, say, trying to go over 8MHz on a 68000, but that's mere speculation. I know that at the low-point in the 68000 timeline, it was going for about $3 each in reasonable quantities, but I don't know where that curve compares to the $10 each for the T-11. I'm not saying you _couldn't_ make a video game based on the IM6100, but it didn't happen to have been done, and would probably just end up as a demonstration of engineering prowess, not something that would have made sense from a business standpoint in 1976. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 19 09:37:36 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:37:36 -0700 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: <4676D017.4873.5EFAEFEF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 18 Jun 2007 at 14:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > . . . and, if you encounter a Horizon with a cover made of 23/32" or > > 11/16" plywood, you will know that it is a modern counterfeit. > >You know, if wanted to fake a Horizon case, I'd take a hunk 23/32 >sanded shop plywood glue some appropriate veneer on. Easy enough to >find and do--you can even get it in self-adhesive varieties for >redoing kitchen cabinets. But I prefer bare veneer and good old >Weldwood contact cement. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi Can someone take their wood cover off and post some pictures showing the bracing and mountings. I do benlieve that many Horizons were shipped without the wood covers. The were intended for rack mount aplications. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 09:48:53 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:48:53 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 6/19/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > Many, many machines were built in this way...I only use the > VAX-11/730 and DECsystem-2020 as examples because I have them sitting > here. Every once in a while, a fit overcomes me and I contemplate what it would take to re-implement the KS20 with a stack of 2901s and a pile of fast SRAM. Fortunately, the madness passes before I can do much more than think about it. It'd be cool, but I'd probably be better off trying to follow in the footsteps of one of the 10-in-an-FPGA projects. For the forseeable future, though, I'll probably stick to klh10 (and should get around to ordering the last parts to finish my "Panda Display" blinkenlights). It would still be a thrill to boot TOPS-20 on real hardware that first time, though. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 10:25:38 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:25:38 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > Also, these are truly microcoded. These usually have there own microcode > ROMs and can have any number of bits wide to run them. Often when used > for hardware control ( such as disk drive controllers ) many of the bits > in the micro code directly control I/O functions so that the processor part > could be doing something with data at the same time the I/O was doing > something else. You can control bitslice chips without microcode. The instruction decoder of the processor can be a hardwired control system that feeds control signals to the bitslices. This was sometimes done with the ECL bitslices, as too much time is wasted in microcode. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 10:28:32 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:28:32 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com> Message-ID: > In what? In video games? the 6100 _might_ have been a competetive > architecture when it was new in the mid-to-late 1970s, but as > competition against an early 8-bit micro, not a 16-bit micro, which > the T-11 is. There is a PDP-8 processor used in Atari's Escape From the Planet of the Robot Monsters. Look for it. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 19 10:49:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:49:17 -0700 Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: <668137.47353.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200706191303.l5JD3q64067097@keith.ezwind.net>, <668137.47353.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4677988D.24311.6209FDA8@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2007 at 6:20, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > You could try using a degaussing coil, it's used to > un-magnetize picture tubes, might work on small parts. > Find a junked color TV (bigger the better) and take > the degaussing coil out of it. Twist the coil to loop > it into a small 5" or so circle, add a power cord, and > wrap the stacked layers of the coil in tape. Don't > leave it plugged in for more than a couple seconds > though! It's not intended to be powered for very long. If you can locate one, try a videotape degausser. Radio Shack used to have a very handy unit that was very useful for degaussing floppies. I've also heard of people using old DC focus coils from early 50's TVs hooked to line current. Unless you had a very extensive hellbox, however, one of those would be difficult to find. I wonder if an old DC choke (in the henrys range) could be used if one removed the "I" side of the core and left the "E" sections in place. Cheers, Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Jun 19 10:52:25 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:52:25 -0600 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4677FBB9.50409@e-bbes.com> Robert Borsuk wrote: > I've been loosely following this thread and never heard of a T11 from > DEC. So good'ole Google and Bitsavers saves the day, but it get's me > thinking. Has anybody done any design's with this processor? Why > wasn't this processor used instead of the 6100? > > Rob There is a guy who made his own SBC with a T-11, and even ported Forth on it. I thought I knew his webpage, but it seems, I lost the bookmark. But check google groups for "peter mccollum forth t11" and you will find at least the discussions ... From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 19 11:24:50 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:24:50 -0400 Subject: Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200706191624.l5JGOwrj082319@keith.ezwind.net> >I do benlieve that many Horizons were shipped without the wood covers. >The were intended for rack mount aplications. At the point I looked at buying a Horizon the wood cover was an extra charge unless you got it with a home office package deal. Taking the topic of wood cases even further off topic, anyone see any nice bookcase style "AV" computer cases? I am looking for one in wood or wrapped in wood with good ventilation. I can not be the only person who wants something that looks like it belongs on a shelf next to an old Marantz or Akai and not look out of place. My other choice is to push the stack of monochrome yet shiney Component back into the shadows or behind doors with just their IR's showing. In my most recient surf on the subject I came across a wood cased computer that has caused me to rethink the whole idea :) http://preview.tinyurl.com/yqvw3d Back under my rock ... Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 19 12:03:42 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:03:42 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <66EE3A45-7FC0-47E0-B47E-EAE1A4F8D571@neurotica.com> On Jun 19, 2007, at 10:48 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Many, many machines were built in this way...I only use the >> VAX-11/730 and DECsystem-2020 as examples because I have them sitting >> here. > > Every once in a while, a fit overcomes me and I contemplate what it > would take to re-implement the KS20 with a stack of 2901s and a pile > of fast SRAM. Fortunately, the madness passes before I can do much > more than think about it. *snicker* Yes that would be fun. But man...there are quite a few really big boards in that machine. That would take some doing! > It'd be cool, but I'd probably be better off trying to follow in the > footsteps of one of the 10-in-an-FPGA projects. For the forseeable > future, though, I'll probably stick to klh10 (and should get around to > ordering the last parts to finish my "Panda Display" blinkenlights). There seem to have been several of those FPGA projects, but they keep dying. I guess people don't have a clear idea of the level of complexity. > It would still be a thrill to boot TOPS-20 on real hardware that first > time, though. Indeed it would. I've never booted mine. :-( Someday I will find a TU45. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 19 12:09:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:09:52 -0600 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46780DE0.1030205@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > They've also been used for much more ambitious things: The VAX-11/730 > and DECsystem-2020, for example, are both built around Am2901 bit-slice > chips, running microcode from fast RAM which implements the VAX and > PDP-10 instruction sets, respectively. That microcode is loaded at boot > time, from TU58 in the case of the VAX-11/730, or from a TU45 9-track > magtape on the DECsystem-2020. Before that microcode is loaded, the > machines aren't really VAXen or PDP-10s...as they have no idea how to > implement the architecture or execute the instructions, until the > microcode is loaded. With a good bit-slice chip like an Am2901, one can > build a processor to implement any architecture one wants. Providing the word length is a multiable of 4 bits that is. Did going bit slice make the machines more profitable for DEC rather than lower the price for the end user? > Many, many machines were built in this way...I only use the VAX-11/730 > and DECsystem-2020 as examples because I have them sitting here. > Further, the Am2901 isn't the only bit-slice CPU around...there were > many others. Intel made at least one, I think it was the 3002. That was a 2 bit bit slice. TI had a weird 4 bit slice. That is all the ones I can think of. > -Dave > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 12:30:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:30:47 -0400 Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) Message-ID: On 6/19/07, woodelf wrote: > Providing the word length is a multiable of 4 bits that is. It sure would be "fun" to debug microcode issues with nine of those puppies chained together. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 19 12:34:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:34:44 -0700 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46780DE0.1030205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu>, , <46780DE0.1030205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4677B144.25716.626A8599@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2007 at 11:09, woodelf wrote: > That was a 2 bit bit slice. TI had a weird 4 bit slice. That is all > the ones I can think of. The National IMP (16 and 8) line of microprocessors were bit-slice also. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 19 12:39:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:39:54 -0600 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <66EE3A45-7FC0-47E0-B47E-EAE1A4F8D571@neurotica.com> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <66EE3A45-7FC0-47E0-B47E-EAE1A4F8D571@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <467814EA.7020502@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 19, 2007, at 10:48 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Every once in a while, a fit overcomes me and I contemplate what it >> would take to re-implement the KS20 with a stack of 2901s and a pile >> of fast SRAM. Fortunately, the madness passes before I can do much >> more than think about it. > *snicker* Yes that would be fun. But man...there are quite a few > really big boards in that machine. That would take some doing! So how much $$ do you expect parts for such a beast would be? > There seem to have been several of those FPGA projects, but they keep > dying. I guess people don't have a clear idea of the level of complexity. So build a RISC flavor of a 9/18/36/72 bit machine. :) > Indeed it would. I've never booted mine. :-( Someday I will find a > TU45. Perhaps that would be a better project to emulate. Spare Time Gizmos makes TU-58 Emulator. You might ask them to emulate a tape drive too. > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 19 12:52:24 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:52:24 -0600 Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <467817D8.3090304@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/19/07, woodelf wrote: >> Providing the word length is a multiable of 4 bits that is. > It sure would be "fun" to debug microcode issues with nine of those > puppies chained together. I don't see it harder than with 32 or 24 bits. [36..21][20..17][16..1] seems to me logical way to do it for basic CPU as that keeps the boards from being to large. The Floating point hardware that sounds like the hard part. Since I never played with a PDP-10 I can say what other fun features you get to play with. Remember PAL's are your friend. :) > -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 12:53:22 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:53:22 -0400 Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46781812.40802@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Providing the word length is a multiable of 4 bits that is. > > It sure would be "fun" to debug microcode issues with nine of those > puppies chained together. There's probably nothing stopping you from using three of them to implement a 9-bit processor and either just sink the other three bits, or use them for processor-level data type enforcement or something or per-instruction relative jumps or something even weirder. It would probably be a pretty strange architecture. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 19 13:04:28 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:04:28 -0400 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <467814EA.7020502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <66EE3A45-7FC0-47E0-B47E-EAE1A4F8D571@neurotica.com> <467814EA.7020502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Jun 19, 2007, at 1:39 PM, woodelf wrote: >> On Jun 19, 2007, at 10:48 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Every once in a while, a fit overcomes me and I contemplate what it >>> would take to re-implement the KS20 with a stack of 2901s and a pile >>> of fast SRAM. Fortunately, the madness passes before I can do much >>> more than think about it. >> *snicker* Yes that would be fun. But man...there are quite a >> few really big boards in that machine. That would take some doing! > > So how much $$ do you expect parts for such a beast would be? Eeeeeek! Well it seems to be mostly TTL...I think it's more a matter of effort than component cost. >> There seem to have been several of those FPGA projects, but they >> keep dying. I guess people don't have a clear idea of the level >> of complexity. > > So build a RISC flavor of a 9/18/36/72 bit machine. :) Weirdo. ;) >> Indeed it would. I've never booted mine. :-( Someday I will >> find a TU45. > > Perhaps that would be a better project to emulate. > Spare Time Gizmos makes TU-58 Emulator. You might ask them to > emulate a tape drive too. Something tells me a MASSBUS-interfaced peripheral would be of somewhat limited appeal. ;) I've thought of doing something like that myself, but then that "spare time" problem crops up. It's maddening. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 19 13:04:58 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:04:58 -0400 Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B901B30-E76E-4A52-85B2-230C27662351@neurotica.com> On Jun 19, 2007, at 1:30 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Providing the word length is a multiable of 4 bits that is. > > It sure would be "fun" to debug microcode issues with nine of those > puppies chained together. Have logic analyzer, will travel.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From darin.lory at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 13:59:15 2007 From: darin.lory at gmail.com (Darin Lory) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:59:15 -0400 Subject: Atari 800XL and 1050 disk drive in Delray Beach, FL Message-ID: <544fa56f0706191159o58e22134t6ecdbfe560cc406d@mail.gmail.com> NNNNNOOOO!!!! UGH!!! My heart!! SHE THREW AWAY AN ATARI COMPUTER!! Dang! I would have gave her cash money for that!! That's almost as bad as when I came home from college and my Dad THREW out all my COMPUTE! magazines that I had saved up and were in MINT condition. -Darin He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 19 13:57:24 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:57:24 -0700 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <46780DE0.1030205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46782713.59D99ECF@cs.ubc.ca> woodelf wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > Many, many machines were built in this way...I only use the VAX-11/730 > > and DECsystem-2020 as examples because I have them sitting here. > > Further, the Am2901 isn't the only bit-slice CPU around...there were > > many others. Intel made at least one, I think it was the 3002. > > That was a 2 bit bit slice. TI had a weird 4 bit slice. That is all > the ones I can think of. ..flipping through IC Master '81: - The 74S481 4-bit slice. - Fairchild CMOS 470x series (4705 4-bit ALU/register slice). - Motorola ECL MC10800 series (4-bit ALU slice) - Siemens ECL SH100B480 4-bit slice - Mustn't forget the 74181 & 74281 4 bit ALUs in the standard TTL series, although I suppose some may argue because they don't contain the register portions. Before bit-slice chips, the HP 2116 was constructed in 'bit-slice form' from SSI: 4 boards plugged into the backplane are identical, each board containing 4 bits of the 16-bit ALU and main registers. I expect other SSI-era minis were done this way. Were any of the early PDP-11's constructed this way, or did the first PDP-11 use the 74181? A weird chip I ran across recently in an early 80's protocol analyser is the AMD 29116. The overview in IC Master calls it a "16-bit Bipolar Microprocessor" but it only contains the ALU, registers, and instruction register/decoding. It appears the program counter/sequencing have to be provided externally, and it doesn't appear to be cascadeable so you can't really call it a bit-slice. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 19 14:21:55 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:21:55 -0600 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46782713.59D99ECF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <46780DE0.1030205@jetnet.ab.ca> <46782713.59D99ECF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <46782CD3.3010108@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Before bit-slice chips, the HP 2116 was constructed in 'bit-slice form' from > SSI: 4 boards plugged into the backplane are identical, each board containing > 4 bits of the 16-bit ALU and main registers. I expect other SSI-era minis were > done this way. Were any of the early PDP-11's constructed this way, or did the > first PDP-11 use the 74181? I got looking a schematic of a few months back and the ALU used 7482's - a 2 bit adder. This was real SSI stuff here, lots of AOI used. Bitsavers has schematics and they are not too big to download. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jun 19 14:24:30 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:24:30 -0500 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <4677616D.1080404@gmail.com> References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> <4677616D.1080404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46782D6E.2080507@oldskool.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I would assume it's something similar to XDF. Probably not XDF itself > though, as that is an IBM thing. DMF, actually: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_Media_Format XDF, IMO, is unnecessarily complicated and not very robust -- they pack 8K clusters on the inner tracks like sardines. But it does indeed store 1.86MB on a DSHD 3.5" disk. If I were to implement some additional-storage format, I'd probably put more/larger sectors on the outer tracks where there is more surface area. I believe Mac and Amiga formats did this, although I'm not aware of the particulars. > You could have made a backup copy on diskettes by using the DOS DISKCOPY > command. It would have made a raw copy including the unusual format. No, it wouldn't. DOS DISKCOPY doesn't handle a single thing that is outside the norm. CopyIIPC, Teledisk, Copywrite, ImageDisk, etc. can, but hardly DOS DISKCOPY. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 14:35:17 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:35:17 -0400 Subject: DEC M220 as a board-level bit-slice device (was Re: Inside old games machines) Message-ID: On 6/19/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Before bit-slice chips, the HP 2116 was constructed in 'bit-slice form' from > SSI: 4 boards plugged into the backplane are identical, each board containing > 4 bits of the 16-bit ALU and main registers. I expect other SSI-era minis were > done this way. The PDP-8/L and PDP-8/i used this technique - six identical M220 "major registers" boards provided 2 bits each of the AC, PC, MA, and MB registers and the adders. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/modules/mSeries/M220.pdf >From a glance at the schematics, it's about 30-some-odd inputs (various enables and adder/shift signals) and almost as many outputs on a dual-height card (72 pins total, including 2 Vcc and 4 GND). Looking at how the logic breaks down, perhaps it might be reimplementable with a pair of 22V10s for the lower part of the flow (combining enables and register bits into the adders), then perhaps a pair of 16V8s for the middle part (shifts and adds), then piped out to, perhaps, one 22V10 and then, if required for fanout, a quad buffer of some type to take the place of the two 7440s - six more modern parts to replace a stack of 7474s, 7483s, 7460s and 7440s and a 7482, of which, I think, only the 7474s are easy to find anymore. I only bring up the M220 at this level because I have a few dead M220s and will need to resort to component level repair or board-level replacement to keep my -8/i and -8/Ls running. From my existing experience, though, I'd start by ensuring my 7474s and 7440s are working as expected - I've replaced several in other boards over the years. They seem to be the two most common ICs to fail in my PDP-8/L. -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 19 14:36:27 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:36:27 -0400 Subject: Atari 800XL and 1050 disk drive in Delray Beach, FL References: <544fa56f0706191159o58e22134t6ecdbfe560cc406d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006501c7b2a9$2176a7f0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darin Lory" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:59 PM Subject: Re: Atari 800XL and 1050 disk drive in Delray Beach, FL > NNNNNOOOO!!!! UGH!!! My heart!! SHE THREW AWAY AN ATARI COMPUTER!! > Yup only 9,999,999 left, better hurry and get one. I feel bad when some rare cards that were only made in the thousands get trashed, but when you think about it the ratio of object to people who want that object is probably the same between the Atari 800xl I don't want and the rare Nubus accelerators I do want. So while I may joke about there only being 9,999,999 Atari 800's left, someday there wont be that many around and the free one that got away will be missed (atleast that's how I feel about all the 386/486 hardware and software few people care about now). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 19 14:30:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:30:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Finally fixed it! (was: Re: Complete success, In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 18, 7 06:21:48 pm Message-ID: > > Of course the system now still won't boot (I can hear the drive > > head move, and then the RL02 FAULT light comes on) but it's likely > > the OS/8 image got clobbered when the chip failed and the CPU > > started writing to odd places. > > Hmm... I don't think filesystem problems will cause the Fault light to > light up, just problems within the drive. You may need to trace back Correct. Even a sector with incorrect checksum will not cause the FAULT light to some one, the checksumming is handled by the controller. > all of the causes that sum up to "Fault" to see what's going on. The way I always trace FAULTs of this nature is to grab the RL02 printset and look at the DDrive Logic PCB scheamtics. It's clear from that there's effectively a big OR gate that comines a lot of different signals to turn on the FAULT light. I run a logic probe over each in turn to see which is the one that's asserted, then trace back from that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 19 15:13:35 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:13:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Jun 19, 7 01:23:19 am Message-ID: > > > Can someone point me to schematics for a decent homebrewed demagnetizer? > I've accidentally magnetized a bunch of little parts that really shouldn't > have been. The normal method of demagnetisation is to subject the part to an oscillating magnetic field that uou gradually reduce the amplitude of. Typically the last part is done by pulling the part away from whatever is generating the field. I don't know the parts you need to demagnetise, but a typical home-made demagnetiser soncists of a medium-sized mains transformer that the core has been removed from, and then all the 'E' laminations re-iserted facing the same way. You connect it to the mains with a light bulb in series (the inductance will be much reduced by the open core, so the impedance will also drop and the current go up), then put the parts on the open face of the core, turn on the current and pull the parts away to arm's length. Only then do you turn it off. Can you still buy tape bulk-erasers? That would work too. Old books on watch repairing have various designes for demagnetisers in them. If the book is old enough, it won't assume the availabity of AC mains. There were designes using vibrators (no, not _that_ sort of vibrator, the thing that was used to chop the DC supply from a car battery in a car radio so you could feed it into a step-up transformer to get the B+ for the valves). There were designes using rotating permanent magnets (and woe betide you if they came loose!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 19 14:50:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:50:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jun 18, 7 10:39:11 pm Message-ID: > What is a "bit-slice" CPU? How does it differ from, say, the 8086? A bit slice CPU is noe made from bit slice chips. OK, that's no help at all. It's probalby easiest to explain using a concrete example, the AM2900 series (which are, AFAIK the most populer bit-slice chips). The AM2901 is a 4 bit ALU + regitster 'slice'. It contains 16 4 bit registers, a 4 bit ALU, and the clrcuitry to link them together. It's the data path for a 4 bit CPU. What makes it 'different' is that you can link several togther. 2 will give you an 8 bit data path. 4 would give you a 16 bit data path. 8 would give you a 32 bit data path, and so on. For example, the VAX11/730 has 8 2901s on one of the CPU cards for this reason. Of course the data path is not the complete processor, you need the control logic as well. There were microcode sequencer chips like the 2909 and 2911, which producde 4 bits of microcode address, and which could easily be cascaerd to make as wide a microcode address as you wanted, but which needed some external logic, and the 2910 which was a 12 bit-wide adress seqencer, incldued the 'extra' logic, but which couldn't easily be exteded (cue for the PERQ 2-bit-kludge story, I guess :-)) There;'s a useful book 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design' by Mick and Brick (that is not a joke!), whcih I am told is one the web soemwhere. And of course the AM2900 series data sheets. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 19 14:38:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:38:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted: Apple ADB keyboard In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070618181942.06ab1a90@mail> from "John Foust" at Jun 18, 7 06:21:15 pm Message-ID: > >IIRC, S-video has 2 ground pins on the connector, and there's nothing to > >stop them being commoned in the cable. Would that cuase a problem if > >sucha a cable was used for ADB? > > See http://www.applefritter.com/node/9214 : > > "Both ADB and S-Video cables use 4 pins, and are interchangeable. > Keep in mind that some S-Video cables are of higher quality than > ADB cables, so if you use an ADB cable for S-Video, the signal > may not be as good as if you used a proper S-Video cable." > > "The only difference between an ADB cable and an SVideo cable is that > the ground pin and the shell are connected together on the ADB cable, > and the ground pin on an SVIDEO cable is not connected to the shell. > The only problem this causes is some devices don't detect the cable > being plugged in and won't switch to it." I learnt long ago not to trust web sites as the definitive answer on anything. Much of this sort of information is based on 'I've tried it and it seems to work' without the author understanding the possible issues involved. For the case inquestion (ADB .vs. S-vide), yes, both cabls have 4 pin mini-DIN on the ends. Both are straight-through wired. But there is a very important difference. ADB has 4 distinct signals on the 4 pins (IIRC, ground, +5V, data, power switch). S-video has 3 (Luminance, Luminance ground, Chreomanance, Chromance ground). Most S-video cabels are wired with the 4 pins being distict, but I can't think of anything that prevents a cable from working as an S-video cable id the 2 grounds arre linked inside the cable (I am pretty sure the S-video standard implies the 2 grounds are linked inside each device). Whether any such cables exist, I don't know, but I could easily see they would cuase problems if used as an ADB cable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 19 15:06:53 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:06:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46782713.59D99ECF@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 19, 7 11:57:24 am Message-ID: > ..flipping through IC Master '81: > > - The 74S481 4-bit slice. > > - Fairchild CMOS 470x series (4705 4-bit ALU/register slice). > > - Motorola ECL MC10800 series (4-bit ALU slice) > > - Siemens ECL SH100B480 4-bit slice Philips made a 4-bit wide slice ASIC called 'SPALU' (Scratch Pad + Arithmetic Logic Unit -- 'scratch pad' meaning general purpose registers). AFAIK it could only be used to make a 16 bit processor (I think all 16 bits went ito each slice, but each slice only outputted 4 result bits). and was used only (?) in the P851 machine. It may not really count, but it's a curiousity. > A weird chip I ran across recently in an early 80's protocol analyser is the > AMD 29116. The overview in IC Master calls it a > "16-bit Bipolar Microprocessor" but it only contains the ALU, registers, and > instruction register/decoding. It appears the program counter/sequencing have > to be provided externally, and it doesn't appear to be cascadeable so you > can't really call it a bit-slice. AFAIk you can't casecade them (things like the carry signals are not available externally in the right form, etc). The PERQ 3a (AGW3300) has a pair of them on the CPU board for the graphics processor, according to the schemaitcs one does the actual data updating, the other calculates the addresse to be updatate. There an external control store (I forget how big) with a simple counter as a sequencer (it can be loaded for jumps, but there's no subroutine stack or anything like that). Obviously you could use a more advanced sequencer, like a 2910 or something -tony From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jun 19 15:41:12 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC M220 as a board-level bit-slice device (was Re: Inside old games machines) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <193416.34369.qm@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > The PDP-8/L and PDP-8/i used this technique - six > identical M220 > "major registers" boards provided 2 bits each of the > AC, PC, MA, and > MB registers and the adders. The "Straight-8" used a similar bit-slice scheme, though the major registers were split across a pair of double-height boards, so that two boards were used for each bit position. --Bill From gtoal at gtoal.com Tue Jun 19 15:49:44 2007 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:49:44 -0500 Subject: Anyone got a working DEC10 (or a running emulator?) Message-ID: A friend at Edinburgh recovered some binaries, a bit of source code, and a fair bit of documentation for the Imp language running on the Dec 10. We're holding a reunion and historical conference in Edinburgh in a couple of weeks - it occurred to me it might be fun if I could show the folks back home that the old code was running again... Does anyone have a working Dec10, whether a physical or a virtual one? Our recovered code is here: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/dec10/imp/ (also if you pop up a directory there's some more stuff, but not of as immediate interest as getting the compiler to run again!) If you could download any of these binaries and give them a try I'ld be very interested to see the results. I think this ran under tops10/tops20 and the precise version of CPU shouldn't be critical I don't think. A trivial "hello world" imp program might be: %begin print string("Hello world!") newline %end %of %program If anyone can get it running, I'll announce it and credit you at the conference :-) Graham From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 19 16:05:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:05:35 -0700 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46782713.59D99ECF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu>, <46782713.59D99ECF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4677E2AF.11445.632B91CD@cclist.sydex.com> Signetics also offered a clone of the Intel 3001 and 3002, as well as a control store sequencer unit, the 8X02. I don't know if I'd consider the 181 a "bit slice". There were also CMOS versions of this: SCL4581, MC15481, HCL40181, etc. And Moto had the MC9704 mW RTL 4-bit adder (though that's probably really stretching the case). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 19 16:16:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:16:48 -0700 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <46782D6E.2080507@oldskool.org> References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne>, <4677616D.1080404@gmail.com>, <46782D6E.2080507@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4677E550.2550.6335D7A3@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2007 at 14:24, Jim Leonard wrote: >> If I were to implement some additional-storage format, I'd probably put > more/larger sectors on the outer tracks where there is more surface > area. I believe Mac and Amiga formats did this, although I'm not aware > of the particulars. Yes, but the thing about XDF was that it used stock PC hardware. Mac and Amiga used hardware that was very different--and varied the rotational rate or the data clock rate to achieve their "zoned" recording format. XDF fits about all one can fit using the NEC 765 hardware. Consider that the unformatted capacity of a track is 12500 bytes. So using an 8K+2K+1K+512 = 11776 bytes, which means that 94% of the track is used for data storage. Contrast this with the normal 18*512 scheme; 9216 bytes of data for a data density of 73%. Even DMF with its 21*512 layout only gets 86% efficiency. You needed special programs and drivers to read XDF, but it was as close to using all of the available storage on a diskette with PC hardware as was possible. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 19 16:36:36 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a working DEC10 (or a running emulator?) In-Reply-To: from "Graham Toal" at Jun 19, 2007 03:49:44 PM Message-ID: <200706192136.l5JLaavj028761@onyx.spiritone.com> > Does anyone have a working Dec10, whether a physical or a virtual one? I know of several, both real and emulated. I'd recommend taking a look at the following webpage. Parts of it are a bit dated, but the information as a whole should be good. There should be pointers to both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 images that are ready to run. If not give me a shout, and I'll try to get that updated. http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 19 17:10:59 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:10:59 -0600 Subject: DEC M220 as a board-level bit-slice device (was Re: Inside old games machines) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46785473.30006@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I only bring up the M220 at this level because I have a few dead M220s > and will need to resort to component level repair or board-level > replacement to keep my -8/i and -8/Ls running. From my existing > experience, though, I'd start by ensuring my 7474s and 7440s are > working as expected - I've replaced several in other boards over the > years. They seem to be the two most common ICs to fail in my PDP-8/L. Unicorn Electronics has most of the TTL but alas * Discontinued by manufacturer - stock conditions may vary * is flagged for a lot of the chips. Now might be time to order spares. http://www.unicornelectronics.com/prod.htm > -ethan > > > . > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 17:30:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:30:33 -0400 Subject: DEC M220 as a board-level bit-slice device (was Re: Inside old games machines) In-Reply-To: <46785473.30006@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46785473.30006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 6/19/07, woodelf wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I only bring up the M220 at this level because I have a few dead M220s > > and will need to resort to component level repair... > > Unicorn Electronics has most of the TTL but alas > * Discontinued by manufacturer - stock conditions may vary * is flagged > for a lot of the chips. Now might be time to order spares. > > http://www.unicornelectronics.com/prod.htm Agreed. BG Micro has some of the parts, too. http://www.bgmicro.com I agree about ordering spares. I'll try to remember to throw some on my next orders for the future, since I have a number of PDP-8s to maintain (I haven't checked, but I expect that most of the same ICs from the -8/L ALU are also present in the KK8E). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 17:47:59 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:47:59 -0400 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <4677E550.2550.6335D7A3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> <4677616D.1080404@gmail.com> <46782D6E.2080507@oldskool.org> <4677E550.2550.6335D7A3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Jun 2007 at 14:24, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > If I were to implement some additional-storage format, I'd > > probably put > > more/larger sectors on the outer tracks where there is more surface > > area. I believe Mac and Amiga formats did this, although I'm not aware > > of the particulars. > > Mac and Amiga used hardware that was very different--and varied the > rotational rate or the data clock rate to achieve their "zoned" > recording format. The Mac did this, but the Amiga did not. The Mac single-sided 400K drive did vary the drive speed - you could hear the zones. Later Macs varied the clock rate through the IWM (Integrated Woz Machine), part of the disk circuit. Amigas had the same number of sectors per track throughout the entire disk - 11 sectors of 512 bytes. They did, however, use non-standard hardware rather than an off-the-shelf diskette controller like early PCs. The digital control lines (step, motor on, etc.) came from one of the 6821/6522/6526-like PIO chips (8520s to be specific), and the raw MFM data was shuffled through a 4096-bit shift register in the sound chip (Paula). The final component was the MFM<->binary converter that was done as a series of logical mini-terms by the graphics chip (Agnes). The effect of all of this was that an entire track was slurped or dumped at once, allowing a very small inter-sector gap compared to designs that read and wrote random sectors on a track, leaving room for those two extra sectors compared to the ordinary PC format. Commodore did vary the bit clock to create 4 zones of sectors on 5.25" floppies (2040/3040/4040/2031/1541/1571 for the PET, VIC-20, and C-64). -ethan From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Jun 19 18:11:01 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room In-Reply-To: <46782D6E.2080507@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070619231101.015F5587E9@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Leonard > > If I were to implement some additional-storage format, I'd probably put > more/larger sectors on the outer tracks where there is more surface > area. I believe Mac and Amiga formats did this, although I'm not aware > of the particulars. > Commodore's GCR format for its 8-bit computers also does this with the most sectors on the first 17 tracks, then two less for the next seven tracks then one less for next six tracks and again one less for the last five tracks. Cheers, Bryan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 19 18:16:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:16:53 -0700 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne>, <4677E550.2550.6335D7A3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46780175.20597.63A3C596@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2007 at 18:47, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Commodore did vary the bit clock to create 4 zones of sectors on 5.25" > floppies (2040/3040/4040/2031/1541/1571 for the PET, VIC-20, and > C-64). Yup, you're correct. I was thinking of the C128/C64 GCR "zoned" drives. But let's consdier the Amiga format and compare it to XDF. The 250Kb/sec capacity for a DS2D diskette is 6250 bytes. So, 11*512 = 5632 bytes, giving a track utilization of about 90%. So XDF at 94% still beats the Amiga with all of its fancy hardware--and XDF uses standard gaps and address headers--and even puts an IAM on the track. The Amiga could have done the same thing with nothing more than a plain old 28-pin WD1770. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 19 18:32:06 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:32:06 -0700 Subject: Massbus simulation Message-ID: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> > Something tells me a MASSBUS-interfaced peripheral would be of > somewhat limited appeal. ;) Every DEC10 owner I know would want one. Guy started on a design, but I think he got tied up with other projects. Mike Ross bought bits of a commercial unit, but I don't think he ever found the software. From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Jun 19 18:48:07 2007 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:48:07 -0500 Subject: FW: Still LOADS of free computer stuff remaining Message-ID: <001e01c7b2cc$4a433720$176fa8c0@obie> June 19, 2007 FREE FREE FREE Even though LOADS of stuff has already been picked up, only about HALF the volume has been given away so far. Here is just a SAMPLE of what remains - Scores of modems Lots of ASCII terminals (Mostly Televideo) Hundreds of floppy disk drives As many as 100 printers (Okidata, IBM, NEC, HP, Epson, C.Itoh, Anadex, ALPS, Star Micronics, AST). We may even have some line printers in another location. Laser, dot matrix, ink jet (as well as some supplies) THOUSANDS of dollars in printer repair parts. Repair manuals. More sheet feeders and printer add-on that you have liekly ever seen in one location. A couple of photocopiers Scores of Monitors: NTCS Composite, TTL, RGB, VGA, SVGA Back up, Stand by, and on line power supplies. Lots of PC parts: power supplies, etc. Tape drives and media Over a TON of computer software...much of it never opened! Oddball parts, supplies, cables, jumper boxes Manuals, documentation, driver disks by the dozens. Altos computers, software, cables. Lots of other stuff. This stuff will go to the first person who comes by and assures me that he will responsibly use the materials and that which cannot be used will be shared with others who could use it and the final remainder will be responsibly recycled. It would be a shame for this valuable information and these parts to be 'lost' as there are so many folks who still have vintage/obsolete computers who are crying for this stuff...and it is FREE for the taking and I will help you load it up! I estimate that the remaining volume would easily fill a 24' van type truck. The stuff is located southeast of Indianapolis and northwest of Cincinnati in Shelbyville, Indiana. This is about 100 miles from Purdue, but don't count on anything remaining by the time the Vintage Computer Show at Purdue takes place. Call me at 317-716-8807 for pick up. It would be great if one party came by and loaded it all up. Tim Deaton No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 6/18/2007 3:02 PM From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jun 19 19:31:18 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:31:18 -0700 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46787556.1000307@shiresoft.com> It's still on my queue of things to do. I've iterated the design a number of times now and it's *much* simpler than what I originally planned on which will equate into a lower cost. :-) I'm actually *very* excited about this project and will definitely get to it (sooner rather than later). I've done enough to do basic parts selection (Atmel uC, Xilinx FPGA, SRAMs, FLASH and I2C bits). It'll use an IDE disk for the actual storage. All code & programming data will be in FLASH (ie you won't loose the boot disk). At this point it's getting enough time to finish the projects that are queued up a head of it done (and my normal job requires a fair amount of time too...still at work as I compose this). Al Kossow wrote: > > Something tells me a MASSBUS-interfaced peripheral would be of > > somewhat limited appeal. ;) > > Every DEC10 owner I know would want one. Guy started on a design, but > I think he got tied up with other projects. Mike Ross bought bits of > a commercial unit, but I don't think he ever found the software. > > > > -- TTFN - Guy From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jun 19 20:30:28 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 02:30:28 +0100 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (SoFar)] References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne><018e01c7b23a$de421af0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <20070619115524.GA15268@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <005001c7b2da$96d5d800$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I vaguely recall that as well as cramming more sectors in per >track, fdformat and the like would write a couple of extra tracks >as well. Never tried adding extra sectors, but using a couple of extra tracks was a very common trick in the early Atari ST days. TTFN - Pete. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 21:32:10 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:32:10 -0500 Subject: [chiclassiccomp] FW: Still LOADS of free computer stuff remaining In-Reply-To: <001e01c7b2cc$4a433720$176fa8c0@obie> References: <001e01c7b2cc$4a433720$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <51ea77730706191932y505fcb90n8c645efc53705c9c@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/07, Jack Rubin wrote: > > June 19, 2007 > > FREE FREE FREE I can't tell - is he expected someone to take all or nothing, or will he part it out? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 19 22:02:22 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: <4677988D.24311.6209FDA8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706191303.l5JD3q64067097@keith.ezwind.net>, <668137.47353.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4677988D.24311.6209FDA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070619200034.A75159@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you can locate one, try a videotape degausser. Radio Shack used > to have a very handy unit that was very useful for degaussing > floppies. Radio Shack used to have a "Bulk Tape Eraser". Then they changed the color, and changed the label to say "Bulk Disk Eraser", and raised the price From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 19 22:22:49 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: <20070619200034.A75159@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jun 19, 7 08:02:22 pm" Message-ID: <200706200322.l5K3MnOw016952@floodgap.com> > > If you can locate one, try a videotape degausser. Radio Shack used > > to have a very handy unit that was very useful for degaussing > > floppies. > > Radio Shack used to have a "Bulk Tape Eraser". > Then they changed the color, and changed the label to say > "Bulk Disk Eraser", and raised the price After that came the Bulk Hard Drive Eraser. I have one here and have just turned it o -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In Computer Science, we stand on each other's feet. -- Brian Reid ---------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 19 23:21:05 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements In-Reply-To: <004201c7b1f0$8e741c70$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <004201c7b1f0$8e741c70$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <20070619211642.S75159@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, Andrew Lynch wrote: > I noticed in another cctech mailing list thread about the NorthStar Horizon > case cover replacements. actually, it was a ccTALK thread entitled "Pictures of my machine room", that was about lumber and woodworking. (We are unable to stay consistently off-topic) > Recently, I procured a NorthStar Horizon which is > missing its original wooden case cover and I was looking to either buy an > original replacement or make a new one. Allison provided the basic info about it, and could maybe be talked into making a full set of all of the measurements. If you can find one of the metal lids, she might even send you a "kit". > be willing to build more? They do not look terribly sophisticated to build > provided you have access to a table saw and the proper bits. I was planning > on just copying the dimensions from another Horizon wooden case cover I > already have. Then you already have the info. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 19 23:23:29 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <431457.26242.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <431457.26242.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070619212159.Y75159@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > It's called DMF. 1.66 mb if I remember correctly. > There are other ways to increase the capacity of > floppies though - and with Linux it's quite possible > to get 1.75 mb reliably on one. (83 tracks, 21 > sectors). I would categorize as "something that you can get away with", rather than "reliably" to use more tracks that the drive was designed for. Will ALL of your drives step that many additional tracks? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 19 23:40:07 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:40:07 -0600 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <20070619212159.Y75159@shell.lmi.net> References: <431457.26242.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070619212159.Y75159@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4678AFA7.8070706@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > I would categorize as "something that you can get away with", rather than > "reliably" to use more tracks that the drive was designed for. > Will ALL of your drives step that many additional tracks? Chuckle ... Thinking about hard drives walking rather floppies. Yes my drive has been known to step more than it was designed for. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 19 23:50:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:50:41 -0700 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <20070619212159.Y75159@shell.lmi.net> References: <431457.26242.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <20070619212159.Y75159@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46784FB1.24429.64D55CF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2007 at 21:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > I would categorize as "something that you can get away with", rather than > "reliably" to use more tracks that the drive was designed for. > Will ALL of your drives step that many additional tracks? Many diskette manufacturers put QA info on cylinder 80, side 0, including manufacturing date, which can be very handy sometimes. But I've got at least two drives in my collection that will "hang up" on cylinder 82--the head sticks and will not retract--requiring manual intervention. There are other drives where the position hits a stop after cylinder 81. And the manufacturer doesn't QA the media that far anyway. I suspect that Superdrives and USB floppies won't go out that far, though I haven't tested them. Cheers, Chuck From PWalsh at energysolutions.com Tue Jun 19 11:48:20 2007 From: PWalsh at energysolutions.com (Pat Walsh) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:48:20 -0400 Subject: Trouble with HP 59309A Digital Clock Message-ID: Joe, Do you know where I can get a manual for this clock? I can scan one into PDF if need be. Just got one of these for a desk clock and need to know how to set the calendar addressed setting. Many thanks, Pat From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 19 06:36:49 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:36:49 -0400 Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements Message-ID: <0JJV006JWS7XYIZ3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:35:13 -0400 > To: > >Hi, > > > >I noticed in another cctech mailing list thread about the NorthStar Horizon >case cover replacements. Recently, I procured a NorthStar Horizon which is >missing its original wooden case cover and I was looking to either buy an >original replacement or make a new one. > >I did not get a lot of responses to my queries on other forums for a >replacement wooden case cover so I am considering fabricating my own. >Apparently, it is common for Horizons to have lost their wooden covers over >time for many reasons and others have done what I am considering. > >Has anyone built replacement NorthStar Horizon case covers before and would >be willing to build more? They do not look terribly sophisticated to build >provided you have access to a table saw and the proper bits. I was planning >on just copying the dimensions from another Horizon wooden case cover I >already have. > >If anyone has a spare NorthStar Horizon wooden case cover, has built new >ones, or knows how to build a replacement, I would certainly like to hear >from you. Please email me or post here. > >Thank you in advance. > First it's a simple 3 sided thing. with a groove routed (or kerf cut) to overlap the cover. The corners are mitered, grooved for biscuts and glued. I added two 1/2" cleats to the corners of mine when I reglued it. There are 4 recessed hole for screws to secure it. Nominal material is 3/4 oak ply though current dimension materials would work as well. There is nothing special about it or difficulty in making it. The metal cover is simple but without a bending brake it's not easy to do. Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jun 19 09:48:04 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:48:04 +0100 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <1182264485.8677.8.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 10:01 -0400, Robert Borsuk wrote: > I've been loosely following this thread and never heard of a T11 from > DEC. So good'ole Google and Bitsavers saves the day, but it get's > me thinking. Has anybody done any design's with this processor? > Why wasn't this processor used instead of the 6100? Another thought that occurs is, surely the FPU-less T11 would be no better (and in some cases not as good as) a 68000? I can see where the F11 or J11, although expensive, might be able to handle maths-intensive tasks rather better. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 19 10:28:45 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:28:45 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <0JJW002T52YFCR2E@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:33:29 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 6/19/07, Robert Borsuk wrote: >> I've been loosely following this thread and never heard of a T11 from >> DEC. So good'ole Google and Bitsavers saves the day, but it get's >> me thinking. Has anybody done any design's with this processor? > >Yes (see the thread where it appears in a few video games). DEC used >it as a PDP-11-instruction-set-compatible microcontroller. It appears >on a few peripheral boards (the RQDX3 comes to mind), and a few other >places. Falcon card (Qbus SBC), KXT-11 (programmable Qbus slave), The RQDXn (all versions) and also the HSC50. I have one of the rare design guides and a good handful of parts both ES and production. Allison > >For some real boots-on-the-ground history, we turn to Bob Supnik... > >http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/t11.html > >(I did not know about his T-11-based RT-11 box - I should ask him about it). > >> Why wasn't this processor used instead of the 6100? > >In what? In video games? the 6100 _might_ have been a competetive >architecture when it was new in the mid-to-late 1970s, but as >competition against an early 8-bit micro, not a 16-bit micro, which >the T-11 is. From looking at the Atari line at the time, it seems >that they were positioning the T-11 against the Motorola 68000. >Presumably there was some engineering or marketing or production >reason to go with the T-11 over the 68000, but, as much as I like the >PDP-11, I can't imagine what that would be. Perhaps the $10/unit cost >that Bob Supnik cites was favorable compared to, say, trying to go >over 8MHz on a 68000, but that's mere speculation. I know that at the >low-point in the 68000 timeline, it was going for about $3 each in >reasonable quantities, but I don't know where that curve compares to >the $10 each for the T-11. The 6100 was PDP-8 and the basic archecture is 4k addressing, 12 bit words and not rom friendly so it was not a contender for rom intensive applications. >I'm not saying you _couldn't_ make a video game based on the IM6100, >but it didn't happen to have been done, and would probably just end up >as a demonstration of engineering prowess, not something that would >have made sense from a business standpoint in 1976. Exactly! The 6120 was faster and incorperated the MEDIC (interrupt and memory expansion similar to PDP-8) but still even at 4k paged and 32k (plus 32k CP memory) it was awkward compared to most micros. Allison From PWalsh at energysolutions.com Tue Jun 19 11:49:07 2007 From: PWalsh at energysolutions.com (Pat Walsh) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:49:07 -0400 Subject: Trouble with HP 59309A Digital Clock Message-ID: Do you know where I can get a manual for this clock? Just started using one and need the technical data and operating instructions. I can scan into a PDF if need be. Thanks Pat From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 19 13:01:58 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:01:58 -0400 Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) Message-ID: <0JJW004RZA1V0UL2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:30:47 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 6/19/07, woodelf wrote: >> Providing the word length is a multiable of 4 bits that is. > >It sure would be "fun" to debug microcode issues with nine of those >puppies chained together. Ignoring race conditions 9 of them are no harder than one. The nasty is propagation delays. A machine that you can microcode single step or slow step makes life easier. I did an "improved 8080" a bunch of years ago using 2 and it was fun. I have a dozen or so 2901Cs that were supposedly the fastest of the TTL flavor. Though the ECL parts were much faster. Allison From rbazzano at alice.it Tue Jun 19 02:58:43 2007 From: rbazzano at alice.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:58:43 +0200 Subject: Help on HP 82901 drive References: Message-ID: <000001c7b2a2$e57821d0$2201a8c0@ufficio> >I notice the drive schematic isn't included. No problem, they seem to be >standard Tandon TM100-2 drives (IBM PC 360K drives :-)) with the PCB >gold-plarted nnd with an HP part number. Electronically they seem >identical. Yes, they are two TM100-2. >Does anyone have a pointer ot the TM100 service manual? I am not looking >for schemaitcs, those I have many times over. I am looking for the >alignment instrucitons, exploded diagrams, etc. Drive 1 in my 82901 needs >a little repair, and I want to see what hte offiical procedure is before >I ignore it :-) I downloaded a few files in the past, but I don't remember where. If you want, I can send them to you: they are 8 MB in total. >Does your 82901 have the 36 pin microribbon socket on the back for extra >drives? Mine doesn't. No, mine hasn't it. Roberto From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Jun 19 20:05:03 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 02:05:03 +0100 Subject: FW: Open VMS Hobbyists Disc Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023020@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> ________________________________ From: Rod Smallwood Sent: 20 June 2007 01:55 To: 'cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org' Subject: Open VMS Hobbyists Disc Hi The above disk having arrived (new version 7.3) I managed to install VMS on both VAXes with out any problem. In order to install the other items first the disk has to be mounted. Again no difficulties. I can list the directories and see their contents. @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL invokes the installer, again normal. It then asks I'm satisified withthe backup of the system disk (Default [YES]) Next it wants the location of the distribution so I say DKA100:[TCPIP_VAX051] Finally it needs the product code. So TCPIP051 to that (they specify the format) It then says it cant find the product. Answers please! Rod Smallwood The DECCollector From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 20 01:03:40 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: <20070619200034.A75159@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706191303.l5JD3q64067097@keith.ezwind.net>, <668137.47353.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4677988D.24311.6209FDA8@cclist.sydex.com> <20070619200034.A75159@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If you can locate one, try a videotape degausser. Radio Shack used > > to have a very handy unit that was very useful for degaussing > > floppies. > > Radio Shack used to have a "Bulk Tape Eraser". > Then they changed the color, and changed the label to say > "Bulk Disk Eraser", and raised the price I might have one of those lurking around here. I had no idea they were usable for random steel fiddly bits. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 20 02:17:06 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 03:17:06 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Jun 19, 2007, at 7:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Something tells me a MASSBUS-interfaced peripheral would be of > > somewhat limited appeal. ;) > > Every DEC10 owner I know would want one. Guy started on a design, but > I think he got tied up with other projects. Mike Ross bought bits of > a commercial unit, but I don't think he ever found the software. Yes, all...what, fifteen of us? Far fewer than something like Brad's Unibus disk controller. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 20 02:27:37 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 03:27:37 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <46787556.1000307@shiresoft.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <46787556.1000307@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Jun 19, 2007, at 8:31 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > It's still on my queue of things to do. I've iterated the design a > number of times now and it's *much* simpler than what I originally > planned on which will equate into a lower cost. :-) I'm actually > *very* excited about this project and will definitely get to it > (sooner rather than later). > > I've done enough to do basic parts selection (Atmel uC, Xilinx > FPGA, SRAMs, FLASH and I2C bits). It'll use an IDE disk for the > actual storage. All code & programming data will be in FLASH (ie > you won't loose the boot disk). > > At this point it's getting enough time to finish the projects that > are queued up a head of it done (and my normal job requires a fair > amount of time too...still at work as I compose this). This is very exciting news...please keep us posted! I'd love to help with testing (KS10) or even development. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 20 02:34:21 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:34:21 +0100 Subject: Open VMS Hobbyists Disc In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023020@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <006901c7b30d$6c4079a0$2a04010a@uatempname> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Next it wants the location of the distribution so I say > DKA100:[TCPIP_VAX051] Finally it needs the product code. So TCPIP051 > to that (they specify the > format) > > It then says it cant find the product. What does $ DIR DKA100:[TCPIP_VAX051] produce? If the savesets are called TCPIP051.A, TCPIP051.B etc. then it should have been fine. If they are called TCPIP_VAX051.A etc. then it should have failed. Antonio From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 02:48:09 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 03:48:09 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 19, 2007, at 7:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> > Something tells me a MASSBUS-interfaced peripheral would be of >> > somewhat limited appeal. ;) >> >> Every DEC10 owner I know would want one. Guy started on a design, but >> I think he got tied up with other projects. Mike Ross bought bits of >> a commercial unit, but I don't think he ever found the software. > > Yes, all...what, fifteen of us? Far fewer than something like Brad's > Unibus disk controller. The 11/[750,780,785,790,795] has Massbus too. Peace... Sridhar From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Jun 20 05:23:08 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 06:23:08 -0400 Subject: FW: Open VMS Hobbyists Disc In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023020@EDISERVER.EDICONS.l ocal> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023020@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <200706201023.l5KAN5pJ028935@mail.itm-inst.com> At 09:05 PM 6/19/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi > The above disk having arrived (new version 7.3) I managed to install >VMS on both VAXes with out any problem. >In order to install the other items first the disk has to be mounted. >Again no difficulties. I can list the directories and see their >contents. >@SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL invokes the installer, again normal. > >It then asks I'm satisified withthe backup of the system disk (Default >[YES]) >Next it wants the location of the distribution so I say >DKA100:[TCPIP_VAX051] >Finally it needs the product code. So TCPIP051 to that (they specify the >format) > >It then says it cant find the product. > > >Answers please! You can do it entirely from the command line: $ @sys$update:vmsinstal tcpip051 dka100:[tcpip_vax051.kit] The VMS distribution CDs usually have the savesets in the [.kit] subdirectory. If you don't see tcpip051.a in that directory, it's a PCSA install and you'll need to use PRODUCT INSTALL to install it. The release notes should provide pretty explicit instructions. -Rick From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 06:00:02 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 04:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <46784FB1.24429.64D55CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <869206.63965.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Many diskette manufacturers put QA info on cylinder > 80, side 0, > including manufacturing date, which can be very > handy sometimes. Neat - I didn't know that. I'll have to check for that. > But I've got at least two drives in my collection > that will "hang up" > on cylinder 82--the head sticks and will not > retract--requiring > manual intervention. There are other drives where > the position hits > a stop after cylinder 81. Interesting - I've never seen a drive do that. I haven't had a problem with 82 cylinder disks, but I can definitely see how some drives might not like it. It's hardly in the spec. But then again, an 82 cylinder disk only requires it to step out to cylinder 81. I have had problems formatting 83 cylinder disks, where the drive would be required to make it to cylinder 82. Some drives do it fine, others don't. Never had one get stuck though. > And the manufacturer doesn't QA the media that far > anyway. >From what I've seen, they don't QA media at all after about 2001 -Ian From dmhills at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 06:45:31 2007 From: dmhills at gmail.com (Don Hills) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:45:31 +1200 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <46782D6E.2080507@oldskool.org> References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> <4677616D.1080404@gmail.com> <46782D6E.2080507@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <2cbc8a1a0706200445s90d91e3ra3d86025304c1f64@mail.gmail.com> On 6/20/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > > XDF, IMO, is unnecessarily complicated and not very robust -- they pack > 8K clusters on the inner tracks like sardines. But it does indeed store > 1.86MB on a DSHD 3.5" disk. > > If I were to implement some additional-storage format, I'd probably put > more/larger sectors on the outer tracks where there is more surface > area. I believe Mac and Amiga formats did this, although I'm not aware > of the particulars. With PC hardware, the sector size is irrelevant with respect to inner versus outer tracks. 3.5 inch drives have a constant RPM and a constant write clock rate, so will record the same number of bits on every track. That's where the unformatted size of a diskette comes from, it's derived from the number of bytes that will fit in one track without any gaps, headers or address marks. If you could fiddle the write clock to use the 1 MHz rate for the outer tracks you might get somewhere. You could work out the bits per lineal inch at the inner and outer radii, and see if the media will support a doubled clock rate at the outer tracks. Regards, Don Hills From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 20 02:59:36 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:59:36 +0100 Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023022@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Even though my main collection is DEC I'd love a Horizon with or with out its wooden case. I wrote a lot of code on one in CBASIC back in the 70's They are somewhat rare in the UK to say the least. In fact, the case is less of a problem than finding a system in the UK. I have a retired friend with fully equipped wood working shop. Consulting my 1979 copies of Practical Computing (a UK magazine). They were widely available in the UK. They must be out there somewhere. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: 19 June 2007 12:37 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements > >Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:35:13 -0400 > To: > >Hi, > > > >I noticed in another cctech mailing list thread about the NorthStar >Horizon case cover replacements. Recently, I procured a NorthStar >Horizon which is missing its original wooden case cover and I was >looking to either buy an original replacement or make a new one. > >I did not get a lot of responses to my queries on other forums for a >replacement wooden case cover so I am considering fabricating my own. >Apparently, it is common for Horizons to have lost their wooden covers >over time for many reasons and others have done what I am considering. > >Has anyone built replacement NorthStar Horizon case covers before and >would be willing to build more? They do not look terribly >sophisticated to build provided you have access to a table saw and the >proper bits. I was planning on just copying the dimensions from >another Horizon wooden case cover I already have. > >If anyone has a spare NorthStar Horizon wooden case cover, has built >new ones, or knows how to build a replacement, I would certainly like >to hear from you. Please email me or post here. > >Thank you in advance. > First it's a simple 3 sided thing. with a groove routed (or kerf cut) to overlap the cover. The corners are mitered, grooved for biscuts and glued. I added two 1/2" cleats to the corners of mine when I reglued it. There are 4 recessed hole for screws to secure it. Nominal material is 3/4 oak ply though current dimension materials would work as well. There is nothing special about it or difficulty in making it. The metal cover is simple but without a bending brake it's not easy to do. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 20 06:16:16 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 07:16:16 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <0JJX00JJFLXBEQV8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > From: "e.stiebler" > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:52:25 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Robert Borsuk wrote: >> I've been loosely following this thread and never heard of a T11 from >> DEC. So good'ole Google and Bitsavers saves the day, but it get's me >> thinking. Has anybody done any design's with this processor? Why >> wasn't this processor used instead of the 6100? >> >> Rob > >There is a guy who made his own SBC with a T-11, and even ported Forth >on it. I thought I knew his webpage, but it seems, I lost the bookmark. >But check google groups for "peter mccollum forth t11" and you will find >at least the discussions ... It's an easy cpu to interface and use. One of it's features is that at reset the bus can be configured for 8 or 16 bit wide path, for standard or varible microcycle and static memory or Dram(with refresh). I'd suspect the Dram support would be valuable in a game at a time when large rams were dynamic. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 07:31:42 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:31:42 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > Yes, all...what, fifteen of us? Far fewer than something like Brad's > > Unibus disk controller. > > The 11/[750,780,785,790,795] has Massbus too. Yep. I have an 11/750 with a Massbus controller. It used to have a TU78 on it, but we had to leave that behind when the company closed. I saved what I could, but the TU78 was one of the casualties (in 1993, lest anyone think it was a near miss). -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 20 07:32:49 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 07:32:49 -0500 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities In-Reply-To: <46784FB1.24429.64D55CF2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <431457.26242.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20070619212159.Y75159@shell.lmi.net> <46784FB1.24429.64D55CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070620073105.06ac9ba8@mail> At 11:50 PM 6/19/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Many diskette manufacturers put QA info on cylinder 80, side 0, >including manufacturing date, which can be very handy sometimes. >[...] >And the manufacturer doesn't QA the media that far anyway. I know you're the guy who should know, but I didn't think that diskette manufacturers did anything software-wise to the media in most historical cases. Pre-formatted media would be another matter, of course, and you'd think they'd QA that step to reject media that wouldn't format. - John From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jun 20 08:38:23 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 07:38:23 -0600 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <1182264485.8677.8.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com> <1182264485.8677.8.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <46792DCF.70203@e-bbes.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Another thought that occurs is, surely the FPU-less T11 would be no > better (and in some cases not as good as) a 68000? I can see where the > F11 or J11, although expensive, might be able to handle maths-intensive > tasks rather better. be carefull here ;-) games etc. use a lot of fixed point instead of floating point. And the 68000 shines here with the 32 bit registers ... From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jun 20 08:41:30 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 07:41:30 -0600 Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) In-Reply-To: <0JJW004RZA1V0UL2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJW004RZA1V0UL2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46792E8A.6050808@e-bbes.com> Allison wrote: >> On 6/19/07, woodelf wrote: >>> Providing the word length is a multiable of 4 bits that is. >> It sure would be "fun" to debug microcode issues with nine of those >> puppies chained together. > > Ignoring race conditions 9 of them are no harder than one. > The nasty is propagation delays. A machine that you can > microcode single step or slow step makes life easier. > > I did an "improved 8080" a bunch of years ago using 2 and > it was fun. I have a dozen or so 2901Cs that were supposedly > the fastest of the TTL flavor. Though the ECL parts were much > faster. I'm toying with the idea of a uCode testbench for a while already. To have an FPGA(yes, I know, not everybody likes them) and a SRAM which is at least 64 bit wide for microcode. The uCode gets downloaded via V24 or SD-Flash, then just the standard set of periperals like V24 (2), and a bus interface, probably with some SDRAM already. But, as usual, I can do it only in my spare time ;-) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 08:55:12 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:55:12 +0100 Subject: Emulating old computers on FPGA Message-ID: <575131af0706200655h54a91b49yc044b549cf8c34a8@mail.gmail.com> Since I see this is coming up, I though folk might be interested in this: http://www.msx.org/One-Chip-MSX-MKII.newspost3805.html Of course, there is also the lovely Jeri Ellsworth's C-One: http://c64upgra.de/c-one/ -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 09:02:02 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:02:02 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <46792DCF.70203@e-bbes.com> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com> <1182264485.8677.8.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <46792DCF.70203@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/07, e.stiebler wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Another thought that occurs is, surely the FPU-less T11 would be no > > better (and in some cases not as good as) a 68000? I can see where the > > F11 or J11, although expensive, might be able to handle maths-intensive > > tasks rather better. > > be carefull here ;-) > games etc. use a lot of fixed point instead of floating point. Fixed point enhanced with fast (but sometimes large) lookup tables instead of MUL and DIV. > And the 68000 shines here with the 32 bit registers ... Yep. Even without 32-bit registers, there are tricks one may employ. Twenty years ago, I had to implement a high-frequency filter in 286 assembler as part of an auto-focus routine for a vision system. It had to be fast, and the company would not pay for a 287 co-pro. The normal technique for a simple 3x3 kernel is to sum up all the values in a 3x3 area and divide by 9 to get the average value, then iterate over the entire frame. Dividing by 9 is expensive for a 286. Dividing by 8 isn't, and produced acceptable results. There are frequently tricks to avoid expensive math operations. Video games use most of them. -ethan From evan at snarc.net Wed Jun 20 09:33:06 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:33:06 -0400 Subject: Here's some VCF East audio recording Message-ID: <001b01c7b347$eac13910$6401a8c0@evan> http://www.armchairarcade.com/neo/node/1359 From ics65 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 20 09:36:59 2007 From: ics65 at sbcglobal.net (George Wiegand) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:36:59 -0400 Subject: free computer stuff remaining-Data General??? References: <001e01c7b2cc$4a433720$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <001e01c7b348$765e7eb0$8ab2df45@ics> Does anyone know if there are any Data General items in the Shelbyville, Indiana inventory? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jun 20 09:58:19 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:58:19 +0100 Subject: Emulating old computers on FPGA In-Reply-To: <575131af0706200655h54a91b49yc044b549cf8c34a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706200655h54a91b49yc044b549cf8c34a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4679408B.5030602@philpem.me.uk> Liam Proven wrote: > Since I see this is coming up, I though folk might be interested in this: > > http://www.msx.org/One-Chip-MSX-MKII.newspost3805.html I've got a single-chip version of the Atari Digital Vector Generator that I cooked up for fun last year. One of these days I'll reimplement the POKEY chip in Verilog (that should be fun ) and build a Eurocard-sized Asteroids clone, complete with vector output circuitry. But alas, the floppy drive reader comes first. Creating schematic symbols for 208-pin QFP parts is painful at best. I really need to order a few of the smaller (144-pin IIRC) XC95288XL gate arrays from Digikey - because there is no way in hell I'm paying RS's 3x markup *and* extortionate postage on top of that. What's really annoying is that the CPLD is the one part that's stopping me building the prototype - the logic code is done, and a good bit of the firmware. Just I don't have a CPLD that fits :-/ Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 20 10:14:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 11:14:30 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> On Jun 20, 2007, at 3:48 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> > Something tells me a MASSBUS-interfaced peripheral would be of >>> > somewhat limited appeal. ;) >>> >>> Every DEC10 owner I know would want one. Guy started on a design, >>> but >>> I think he got tied up with other projects. Mike Ross bought bits of >>> a commercial unit, but I don't think he ever found the software. >> Yes, all...what, fifteen of us? Far fewer than something like >> Brad's Unibus disk controller. > > The 11/[750,780,785,790,795] has Massbus too. Well they *can*. As can many PDP-11s. So yes, I suppose you have a point! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jun 20 10:37:53 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:37:53 -0700 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <467949D1.4090706@shiresoft.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 20, 2007, at 3:48 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> > Something tells me a MASSBUS-interfaced peripheral would be of >>>> > somewhat limited appeal. ;) >>>> >>>> Every DEC10 owner I know would want one. Guy started on a design, but >>>> I think he got tied up with other projects. Mike Ross bought bits of >>>> a commercial unit, but I don't think he ever found the software. >>> Yes, all...what, fifteen of us? Far fewer than something like >>> Brad's Unibus disk controller. >> >> The 11/[750,780,785,790,795] has Massbus too. > > Well they *can*. As can many PDP-11s. So yes, I suppose you have a > point! One thing that I've tried to maintain in the hardware design is flexibility. There will be two boards. Once board will contain all of the main logic (FPGA, uC, IDE interface, etc). The daughter board will have the interface adapter (ie massbus trancievers). By creating other daughter boards (I'm planning a Unibus one too) and loading different code into the FPGA and uC, it should be able to emulate almost any type of disk device (maybe tapes too...but that'll be later). -- TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 10:44:39 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 11:44:39 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 20, 2007, at 3:48 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > The 11/[750,780,785,790,795] has Massbus too. > > Well they *can*. As can many PDP-11s. So yes, I suppose you have > a point! I haven't tried to find an RH-11 recently, but an RH750 is a single card (no backplane required), with a simple cable arrangement from the 11/750 backplane to the I/O bulkhead area (theoretically, depending on how a modern Massbus device was constructed, one could even just run a trio of 40-pin cables between the 11/750 backplane and the new device, and bypass "real" Massbus cables). I would almost expect that every 11/780 that's still running these days has an RH780, but I doubt that's a very large pool of machines. At least 11/750s are small enough to run in a home/office environment. Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more likely, the PDP-10 crowd. I know I'd rather run a 3.5" IDE drive attached to some electronics than an RP07 for every-day use. I don't have hard numbers in front of me, but am of the opinion that there are enough hobbyists who would buy a new Massbus disk to make the effort worthwhile. Of couse there are more who could use a Unibus disk, but that's no reason not to take a stab at Massbus. -ethan From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Jun 20 10:46:26 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:46:26 -0700 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:48 AM -0400 6/20/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Dave McGuire wrote: >>On Jun 19, 2007, at 7:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> > Something tells me a MASSBUS-interfaced peripheral would be of >>>> somewhat limited appeal. ;) >>> >>>Every DEC10 owner I know would want one. Guy started on a design, but >>>I think he got tied up with other projects. Mike Ross bought bits of >>>a commercial unit, but I don't think he ever found the software. >> >> Yes, all...what, fifteen of us? Far fewer than something like >>Brad's Unibus disk controller. > >The 11/[750,780,785,790,795] has Massbus too. Don't forget RH70 and RH11. [I know Guy won't. :-) ] John From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jun 20 11:00:50 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:00:50 -0700 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46794F32.3040508@shiresoft.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/20/07, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Jun 20, 2007, at 3:48 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> > The 11/[750,780,785,790,795] has Massbus too. >> >> Well they *can*. As can many PDP-11s. So yes, I suppose you have >> a point! > > I haven't tried to find an RH-11 recently, but an RH750 is a single > card (no backplane required), with a simple cable arrangement from the > 11/750 backplane to the I/O bulkhead area (theoretically, depending on > how a modern Massbus device was constructed, one could even just run a > trio of 40-pin cables between the 11/750 backplane and the new device, > and bypass "real" Massbus cables). The plan is (because real massbus connectors are so hard to find) to use 3 40 pin ribbon cables (aka the in-cabinet massbus cabling) to go between the controller (RH11, RH70, RH750, RH780, etc) and what I'm building. That still allows for using an external massbus cable arrangement if one so desires. > > I don't have hard numbers in front of me, but am of the opinion that > there are enough hobbyists who would buy a new Massbus disk to make > the effort worthwhile. Of couse there are more who could use a Unibus > disk, but that's no reason not to take a stab at Massbus. I hope so because this is going to be a lot of work. :-) Not only do I have to do the hardware design (and fab) but also have to write the verilog for the FPGA and a resonable amount of code on the uC. I'm in the process of redesigning my website. As part of that I'll put up more details on "legacy disk emulator". -- TTFN - Guy From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 20 11:02:39 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:02:39 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200706201202.40064.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 20 June 2007 11:44, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would almost expect that every 11/780 that's still running these > days has an RH780, but I doubt that's a very large pool of machines. While I don't have it running yet, my 11/780 didn't come with an RH780. It did come with a UC18 Unibus SCSI controller though... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 11:25:58 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:25:58 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <46794F32.3040508@shiresoft.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> <46794F32.3040508@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > an RH750 is a single > > card (no backplane required), with a simple cable arrangement from the > > 11/750 backplane to the I/O bulkhead area... one could even just run a > > trio of 40-pin cables between the 11/750 backplane and the new device, > > and bypass "real" Massbus cables). > The plan is (because real massbus connectors are so hard to find) to use > 3 40 pin ribbon cables (aka the in-cabinet massbus cabling) to go > between the controller (RH11, RH70, RH750, RH780, etc) and what I'm > building. That still allows for using an external massbus cable > arrangement if one so desires. Sounds exactly what I had envisioned. Must be the obvious thing to do. > I'm in the process of redesigning my website. As part of that I'll put > up more details on "legacy disk emulator". Excellent. Can't wait. -ethan From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 20 12:01:06 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:01:06 -0400 Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. Message-ID: <46795D52.4000401@sbcglobal.net> If you're curious, a Mac USB keyboard successfully cleaned in a dishwasher: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/20/keyboard_dishwash/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 20 12:18:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:18:11 -0700 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070620073105.06ac9ba8@mail> References: <431457.26242.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46784FB1.24429.64D55CF2@cclist.sydex.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20070620073105.06ac9ba8@mail> Message-ID: <4678FEE3.26491.6781B929@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jun 2007 at 7:32, John Foust wrote: > I know you're the guy who should know, but I didn't think that > diskette manufacturers did anything software-wise to the media > in most historical cases. Pre-formatted media would be another > matter, of course, and you'd think they'd QA that step to > reject media that wouldn't format. Yes, it's on the preformatted media--and by no means all of it. Still, it can be useful. Cheers, Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Jun 20 12:58:07 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: <200706200322.l5K3MnOw016952@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20070620175807.C2F3F58AE2@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Cameron Kaiser > > > > If you can locate one, try a videotape degausser. Radio Shack used > > > to have a very handy unit that was very useful for degaussing > > > floppies. > > > > Radio Shack used to have a "Bulk Tape Eraser". > > Then they changed the color, and changed the label to say > > "Bulk Disk Eraser", and raised the price > > After that came the Bulk Hard Drive Eraser. I have one here and have just > turned it o > "Maybe he was dictating it." 8-) Cheers, Bryan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 13:42:27 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:42:27 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46797513.6020009@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus > storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more Indeed. My 11/70 has RP06s. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 13:49:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:49:52 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <46797513.6020009@gmail.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> <46797513.6020009@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus > > storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more > > Indeed. My 11/70 has RP06s. Mine have SI9900s, but I'd love to throw an RH70 in one. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 20 13:50:47 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:50:47 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jun 20, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > The 11/[750,780,785,790,795] has Massbus too. >> >> Well they *can*. As can many PDP-11s. So yes, I suppose you have >> a point! > > I haven't tried to find an RH-11 recently, but an RH750 is a single > card (no backplane required), with a simple cable arrangement from the > 11/750 backplane to the I/O bulkhead area (theoretically, depending on > how a modern Massbus device was constructed, one could even just run a > trio of 40-pin cables between the 11/750 backplane and the new device, > and bypass "real" Massbus cables). An RH-11 is a four-slot backplane full of cards. And the most static-sensitive piece of DEC equipment I have *ever* seen. > I would almost expect that every 11/780 that's still running these > days has an RH780, but I doubt that's a very large pool of machines. > At least 11/750s are small enough to run in a home/office environment. > Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus > storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more > likely, the PDP-10 crowd. I know I'd rather run a 3.5" IDE drive > attached to some electronics than an RP07 for every-day use. Well I'd love to have one for my PDP-11/70, but at least I do have other disk options for it, so it's not as urgent. The KS10, on the other hand, is a big paperweight without a TU45 and a MASSBUS- attached disk. > I don't have hard numbers in front of me, but am of the opinion that > there are enough hobbyists who would buy a new Massbus disk to make > the effort worthwhile. Well, with VAXen in mind, I'd be inclined to agree...though it's not really that difficult to get non-MASSBUS disks on VAXen. > Of couse there are more who could use a Unibus > disk, but that's no reason not to take a stab at Massbus. No, absolutely not...and I'd love to see it happen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jun 20 13:52:29 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:52:29 -0400 Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. In-Reply-To: <46795D52.4000401@sbcglobal.net> References: <46795D52.4000401@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4679776D.2090008@atarimuseum.com> I have a friend who was (still is I believe) a major Apple and Mac consultant in the NYC area. I remember he used to have is bath tub filled with Apple ][ and Mac cases to let them soak in cleaning solution for several hours (sometimes overnight) and then he'd rinse them down and clean them off. So seeing stuff go through the dishwasher is not surprising, the IMPORTANT thing is, DO NOT DO HEATED DRYING on the dishwasher cycle, otherwise the heat with bend and warp the plastic casings. (Does a mean job of destroying plastic forks and spoons, so I would assume it would be no less damaging to computer plastics) Curt Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > If you're curious, a Mac USB keyboard successfully cleaned in a > dishwasher: > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/20/keyboard_dishwash/ > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 20 13:59:31 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:59:31 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> <46797513.6020009@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 20, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus >> > storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more >> >> Indeed. My 11/70 has RP06s. > > Mine have SI9900s, but I'd love to throw an RH70 in one. I've got a pair of Emulex SC72s for mine...The SC72 is a set of boards that plugs into the RH70 slots in an 11/70, and controls SMD drives. I've not installed them yet, but I expect them to be very nice. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Jun 20 14:32:50 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <0JJX00JJFLXBEQV8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJX00JJFLXBEQV8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: > It's an easy cpu to interface and use. One of it's features is > that at reset the bus can be configured for 8 or 16 bit wide path, > for standard or varible microcycle and static memory or > Dram(with refresh). However, it's not without its obnoxious bits. On the T-11, all writes are performed as read-modify-writes. This is annoying when interfacing to chips such as the HDC9224 (the disk controller used in the RQDX3). In that chip, you access many registers through a single port address; another port indicates which of the registers is being addressed. The internal address port increments on either a read or a write. This means that a naive interface to the HDC9224 from a T-11 A) increments the internal address register twice and B) can't write register 0 because the internal address register is incremented during the read. IIRC, they handled this in the RQDX3 by placing the 9224 in two separate address regions; one ignored reads, preventing them from getting to the 9224. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 14:33:38 2007 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes Jr.) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:33:38 -0400 Subject: Items for sale In Bel Air, Maryland Message-ID: I'm leaving for military service at the end of july, so I'm tidying up and getting rid of everything I don't need or want ... Atari Portfolio with the memory expander plus and smart parallel interface, one 64K memory card - if I can find it, there's a serial interface and another 64K card.... Boxed copy of "Harvard Graphics"... Solaris 8 box kit, Sun Ultra 5 w/o harddrive - IDE system , 270MHz UltraSPARC Iii with 384MB ram Palm IIIxe + cradle DEC 3000-300x with video cable and keyboard / mouse / adapter - OpenVMS was installed but it threw an MCHK error about the ram and I never had time to figure out which module it was ... One SparcClassic with original CPU and a scsi/ethernet sbus card - two modules of ram inside the machine both marked 4x36 ... No harddrive in the machine Numerous sun keyboards and a mouse or two ... About 4-5 apple ADB keyboards Lots of rolls of radioshack thermal fax paper 13W3 video extension cables VGA-> BNC video cables and short adapters SCSI and IDE cables out the wazoo Possibly three IPX's ... Need to check storage for them Tomorrow afternoon I should know if I still have the Indigo2 and O2 for sale, along with a powermac 8500 and a quadra 605 .. Email for information and offers please From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 20 07:49:43 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:49:43 -0400 Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements Message-ID: <0JJX00BZ9Q914NSD@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements > From: "Rod Smallwood" > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:59:36 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Hi > >Even though my main collection is DEC I'd love a Horizon with or with >out its wooden case. I wrote a lot of code on one in CBASIC back in the >70's > >They are somewhat rare in the UK to say the least. >In fact, the case is less of a problem than finding a system in the UK. >I have a retired friend with fully equipped wood working shop. > >Consulting my 1979 copies of Practical Computing (a UK magazine). >They were widely available in the UK. They must be out there somewhere. > >Rod Smallwood For the most part you can do the same on ANY S100 CP/M machine or even SBC (CBASIC stuff). The only thing that sperated the horizon from most S100s was the case had room for two full height 5.25 floppies and had two serial and a parallel port built on the the mother board. However any serial card that used 8251s coud be configured for ports 0/1,2/3 and be transparent. The rest is the NS* MDS controller (either SD or DD version) and that worked fine in most any Z80 S100 crate. What made the box notable was floppies in the crate rather than external box and only a LED (power on) on the front pannel. It was one of the early turnkey systems and became popular with applications/system integrators for that reason. The reason being it was now possible to sell a small(then) system that was powerful enough to be a complete office accounting system. It didn't hurt that the wood cover fit into office decor of the time. The wood disappeard when FCC started forcing RFI constraints. Allison > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison >Sent: 19 June 2007 12:37 >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements > >> >>Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements >> From: "Andrew Lynch" >> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:35:13 -0400 >> To: >> >>Hi, >> >> >> >>I noticed in another cctech mailing list thread about the NorthStar >>Horizon case cover replacements. Recently, I procured a NorthStar >>Horizon which is missing its original wooden case cover and I was >>looking to either buy an original replacement or make a new one. >> >>I did not get a lot of responses to my queries on other forums for a >>replacement wooden case cover so I am considering fabricating my own. >>Apparently, it is common for Horizons to have lost their wooden covers >>over time for many reasons and others have done what I am considering. >> >>Has anyone built replacement NorthStar Horizon case covers before and >>would be willing to build more? They do not look terribly >>sophisticated to build provided you have access to a table saw and the >>proper bits. I was planning on just copying the dimensions from >>another Horizon wooden case cover I already have. >> >>If anyone has a spare NorthStar Horizon wooden case cover, has built >>new ones, or knows how to build a replacement, I would certainly like >>to hear from you. Please email me or post here. >> >>Thank you in advance. >> > >First it's a simple 3 sided thing. with a groove routed (or kerf cut) to >overlap the cover. The corners are mitered, grooved for biscuts and >glued. >I added two 1/2" cleats to the corners of mine when I reglued it. There >are 4 recessed hole for screws to secure it. Nominal material is 3/4 oak >ply though current dimension materials would work as well. There is >nothing special about it or difficulty in making it. > >The metal cover is simple but without a bending brake it's not easy to >do. > > >Allison > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jun 20 08:47:16 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:47:16 +0100 Subject: FW: Open VMS Hobbyists Disc Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39023026@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well spotted, it does have a .PCSA;1 extension. In the KIT directory is a file called ... Wait for it!! DEC-VAXVMS-TCPIP-V0501-15-1.PCSI;1 I'll read up on PRODUCT INSTALLATION Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: 20 June 2007 11:23 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: FW: Open VMS Hobbyists Disc At 09:05 PM 6/19/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi > The above disk having arrived (new version 7.3) I managed to >install VMS on both VAXes with out any problem. >In order to install the other items first the disk has to be mounted. >Again no difficulties. I can list the directories and see their >contents. >@SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL invokes the installer, again normal. > >It then asks I'm satisified withthe backup of the system disk (Default >[YES]) >Next it wants the location of the distribution so I say >DKA100:[TCPIP_VAX051] Finally it needs the product code. So TCPIP051 to >that (they specify the >format) > >It then says it cant find the product. > > >Answers please! You can do it entirely from the command line: $ @sys$update:vmsinstal tcpip051 dka100:[tcpip_vax051.kit] The VMS distribution CDs usually have the savesets in the [.kit] subdirectory. If you don't see tcpip051.a in that directory, it's a PCSA install and you'll need to use PRODUCT INSTALL to install it. The release notes should provide pretty explicit instructions. -Rick From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 20 10:03:23 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 11:03:23 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <0JJX00KHGWFX20QD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:02:02 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Even without 32-bit registers, there are tricks one may employ. >Twenty years ago, I had to implement a high-frequency filter in 286 >assembler as part of an auto-focus routine for a vision system. It >had to be fast, and the company would not pay for a 287 co-pro. The >normal technique for a simple 3x3 kernel is to sum up all the values >in a 3x3 area and divide by 9 to get the average value, then iterate >over the entire frame. Dividing by 9 is expensive for a 286. >Dividing by 8 isn't, and produced acceptable results. > >There are frequently tricks to avoid expensive math operations. Video >games use most of them. > >-ethan I've used the same idea for decimal to bin and bin to decimal as multiply or divide by 10 is costly in 8080/Z80/8048. It was far easier and faster to do a pair of shifts and one add and then do a shift again than a general multiply. The same is true for the reverse though then you do a subtract as needed. The code is linear and faster. It also works well for other non binary constants (3,5,6,7,9,10,11..). Doing it this way is the obvious specific unrolling of a general shift and add multiply routine. One of many tricks. Allison From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 20 15:04:54 2007 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:04:54 -0400 Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. In-Reply-To: <4679776D.2090008@atarimuseum.com> References: <46795D52.4000401@sbcglobal.net> <4679776D.2090008@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <46798866.10901@sbcglobal.net> I should've put a note in the original message. I _don't_ want to dredge back up the tired thread of washing computer parts. ;) Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I have a friend who was (still is I believe) a major Apple and Mac > consultant in the NYC area. I remember he used to have is bath tub > filled with Apple ][ and Mac cases to let them soak in cleaning solution > for several hours (sometimes overnight) and then he'd rinse them down > and clean them off. So seeing stuff go through the dishwasher is not > surprising, the IMPORTANT thing is, DO NOT DO HEATED DRYING on the > dishwasher cycle, otherwise the heat with bend and warp the plastic > casings. (Does a mean job of destroying plastic forks and spoons, so I > would assume it would be no less damaging to computer plastics) > > > > Curt > > > Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> If you're curious, a Mac USB keyboard successfully cleaned in a >> dishwasher: >> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/20/keyboard_dishwash/ >> > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jun 20 15:06:06 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:06:06 -0700 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> <46797513.6020009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <467988AE.30104@shiresoft.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 20, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> > Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus >>> > storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more >>> >>> Indeed. My 11/70 has RP06s. >> >> Mine have SI9900s, but I'd love to throw an RH70 in one. > > I've got a pair of Emulex SC72s for mine...The SC72 is a set of > boards that plugs into the RH70 slots in an 11/70, and controls SMD > drives. I've not installed them yet, but I expect them to be very nice. They *are* very nice. I have 2 sets in my 11/70. One for controlling the Eagles and the other for the CDC 9766's. -- TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 15:16:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > An RH-11 is a four-slot backplane full of cards. And the most > static-sensitive piece of DEC equipment I have *ever* seen. I haven't touched one since about 1988. Didn't blow it up, so I must have been using reasonable ESD procedures (I used to make Unibus/Qbus cards, so I'm kinda careful with that stuff). We had a couple of RM02s attached to something with a Unibus - can't remember exactly what, but our primary VAX there was an 11/730 (that managed to survive 4th of July weekend during a heatwave in a closet when the airconditioner failed - it was well over 110F in there when we opened the door), and I know we didn't try to use an RH-11 with that. It was probably an 11/24 or 11/34, thinking back. > Well I'd love to have one for my PDP-11/70, but at least I do have > other disk options for it, so it's not as urgent. The KS10, on the > other hand, is a big paperweight without a TU45 and a MASSBUS- > attached disk. Sure. > Well, with VAXen in mind, I'd be inclined to agree...though it's > not really that difficult to get non-MASSBUS disks on VAXen. No, it's not. One of the easiest ways is a UDA50. At Software Results, we had Massbus disk (RM03 as hot spares, plus an SI-9900-to-SMD controller) and Unibus disk (UDA50 and RL11) on our 11/750. By the early 1990s, the SI9900 was the fastest, but we tended to hang new disks off of the UDA50 rather than mess with SMD cables and distribution cards in the disk box. I've seen folks talk about a Unibus SCSI controller, but I've never seen one up close. To me, that'd be a nice thing to have in an 11/750. I keep contemplating turning a COMBOARD into a SCSI controller, but it'd be slow - the COMBOARD can do DMA to the Unibus, but its own processor is an 8MHz 68000 which would be lucky to be able to push over 200Kb/sec from its side (it was designed as a communication engine, so it only had to be able to keep a 56kbps pipe full). Barring a wave of inexpensive Unibus SCSI cards, I think Guy's approach is quite reasonable - build a core "storage engine" that can stick onto either a Unibus or Massbus foundation module. That way, everybody gets to share in economy of scale. I'd personally be good for at least one of each, and possibly more than one Unibus bit, if they weren't too expensive. -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 15:20:35 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hyperion on eBay (Winnipeg) Message-ID: <625330.31315.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/early-vintage-bytec-dynalogic-HYPERION-LAPTOP-COMPUTER_W0QQitemZ330135055688QQihZ014QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 15:22:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:22:25 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <0JJX00JJFLXBEQV8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 6/20/07, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: > > It's an easy cpu to interface and use... > > However, it's not without its obnoxious bits. > > On the T-11, all writes are performed as read-modify-writes. Hmm... was that because of the needs of core memory, or was it just to simplify some aspect of its internal design? RMW cycles are typically no problem with main memory, but I've seen problems with them in a number of situations involving I/O, typically involving "clever" peripherals that take a read of some register as a trigger signal, but also with some 68000-family designs where you weren't allowed to use instructions in your code which invoked RMW cycles because they weren't interruptible (intentionally) and could cause interrupt or instruction-restart problems. At least with the 68000, RMW cycles were rarely done by real-world code, and never accidentally. With a from-scratch T-11 SBC, one could, I'd expect, select I/O peripherals that wouldn't be subject to side-effects (like clearing status bits on reads), but that's a lot harder when you have a mandate to use a particular vendor's chip and the chip tries to be clever. -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 15:26:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange Televideo terminal? in Belgium (eBay) Message-ID: <345921.13163.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-TELEVIDEO-PT-100_W0QQitemZ230140614394QQihZ013QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 20 15:52:26 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: References: <200706191303.l5JD3q64067097@keith.ezwind.net>, <668137.47353.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4677988D.24311.6209FDA8@cclist.sydex.com> <20070619200034.A75159@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070620135130.M17671@shell.lmi.net> . . . and, if you magnetize the ferrous hub and shutter of 3.5" diskettes, then you can store them on the refrigerator -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 20 15:56:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:56:02 -0700 Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements In-Reply-To: <0JJX00BZ9Q914NSD@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJX00BZ9Q914NSD@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <467931F2.2967.68492996@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jun 2007 at 8:49, Allison wrote: > What made the box notable was floppies in the crate rather than external > box and only a LED (power on) on the front pannel. It was one of the early > turnkey systems and became popular with applications/system integrators > for that reason. The reason being it was now possible to sell a small(then) > system that was powerful enough to be a complete office accounting system. > It didn't hurt that the wood cover fit into office decor of the time. > The wood disappeard when FCC started forcing RFI constraints. There was a good reason for that. A friend had purchased one of the Integrand S-100 boxes with a floppy cutout. He'd installed an SA-400 (IIRC) and complained that it wouldn't work reliably. What I discovered was that the field from the large power transformer was playing hob with the drive electronics. I installed a substantial steel shield around the floppy and the problem abated. When I purchased my own Integrand box, I opted for the drive-less model. Even on the Durango box, we had to shield both the drives and the small monitor that sat over them to get reliable drive operation. Cheers, Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jun 20 16:00:36 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:00:36 -0300 Subject: Emulating old computers on FPGA References: <575131af0706200655h54a91b49yc044b549cf8c34a8@mail.gmail.com> <4679408B.5030602@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <00bc01c7b37e$dd357db0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I've got a single-chip version of the Atari Digital Vector Generator that > I cooked up for fun last year. One of these days I'll reimplement the > POKEY chip in Verilog (that should be fun ) and build a > Eurocard-sized Asteroids clone, complete with vector output circuitry. Phil, would you mind in sharing a bit of your knowledge? I have a "starter's kit" with a 9572 but just cannot understand how do I begin to make things work. Found no good tutorial on net. Would you mind helping me (and possibly others on/off this list) in "how to begin playing with CPLDs? Thanks a lot! I'm looking forward that for months! Alexandre From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 20 16:20:36 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 17:20:36 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <46797513.6020009@gmail.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> <46797513.6020009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6AF5E87E-B737-4773-BDF4-EC704D0824E7@neurotica.com> On Jun 20, 2007, at 2:42 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus >> storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more > > Indeed. My 11/70 has RP06s. You got another one?? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 16:21:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for a C16 in any condition Message-ID: <91467.2091.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> all I want is the case, so it don't have to work LOL. Actually it would make a curious project to get going even at that. I had heard (or actually read) there was a way of retrofitting (no pun intended hosers) a 6502 into a Commie 64. So why not the same, or a 6510 in a Commie 16. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jun 20 16:21:53 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:21:53 -0300 Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. References: <46795D52.4000401@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <012c01c7b381$1b064fa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > If you're curious, a Mac USB keyboard successfully cleaned in a > dishwasher: > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/20/keyboard_dishwash/ Nothing incredible here, I do that with my IBM model M, and put it on the sun to dry :oD From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 16:54:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. In-Reply-To: <46798866.10901@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <881334.72999.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > I should've put a note in the original message. I > _don't_ want to > dredge back up the tired thread of washing computer > parts. ;) It does work though. Soaking is best. I've used about a quart of ammonia to 4-5 gallons of water and some laundry detergent. Ammonia gets into EVERYTHING. Don't use too much though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 20 16:57:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. In-Reply-To: <46798866.10901@sbcglobal.net> References: <46795D52.4000401@sbcglobal.net> <4679776D.2090008@atarimuseum.com> <46798866.10901@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20070620145515.Q17671@shell.lmi.net> I used to have a girlfriend who claimed that you could clean eating utensils in a dishwasher! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 20 17:00:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:00:11 -0700 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <0JJX00KHGWFX20QD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJX00KHGWFX20QD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <467940FB.3109.6883E0B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jun 2007 at 11:03, Allison wrote: > I've used the same idea for decimal to bin and bin to decimal as multiply > or divide by 10 is costly in 8080/Z80/8048. It was far easier and faster > to do a pair of shifts and one add and then do a shift again than a > general multiply. The same is true for the reverse though then you do > a subtract as needed. The code is linear and faster. It also works well > for other non binary constants (3,5,6,7,9,10,11..). Doing it this way > is the obvious specific unrolling of a general shift and add multiply > routine. Two shifts and a subtract for divide by 10 with no conditional tests? Do you have some source code? I don't think I've ever seen that done on large binary numbers. Or maybe I misunderstood. On the other hand, dividing by a constant by multiplying by a scaled reciprocal of the constant is very old. We'd do an unnormalized lower DP multiply by 1/10 scaled by 2**47 on the CDC 6600 for a shortcut integer divide by 10. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 20 16:22:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:22:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: <200706200322.l5K3MnOw016952@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 19, 7 08:22:49 pm Message-ID: > After that came the Bulk Hard Drive Eraser. I have one here and have just Inn't that a really bad idea, on the grounds you'll erase the servo patterns and the like :-) > turned it o ROFL. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 20 17:49:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:49:16 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <467988AE.30104@shiresoft.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> <46797513.6020009@gmail.com> <467988AE.30104@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Jun 20, 2007, at 4:06 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> > Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus >>>> > storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more >>>> >>>> Indeed. My 11/70 has RP06s. >>> >>> Mine have SI9900s, but I'd love to throw an RH70 in one. >> >> I've got a pair of Emulex SC72s for mine...The SC72 is a set of >> boards that plugs into the RH70 slots in an 11/70, and controls >> SMD drives. I've not installed them yet, but I expect them to be >> very nice. > > They *are* very nice. I have 2 sets in my 11/70. One for > controlling the Eagles and the other for the CDC 9766's. Very nice! I am looking forward to using one. I'm a little short on SMD drives but I think I still have a pair of Fuji M2372Ks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jun 20 18:17:46 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:17:46 +0100 Subject: Emulating old computers on FPGA In-Reply-To: <00bc01c7b37e$dd357db0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <575131af0706200655h54a91b49yc044b549cf8c34a8@mail.gmail.com> <4679408B.5030602@philpem.me.uk> <00bc01c7b37e$dd357db0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4679B59A.8090207@philpem.me.uk> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Phil, would you mind in sharing a bit of your knowledge? Well, why the heck not. What's the use in hoarding knowledge anyway? :P > I have a "starter's kit" with a 9572 but just cannot understand how > do I begin to make things work. Found no good tutorial on net. Would you > mind helping me (and possibly others on/off this list) in "how to begin > playing with CPLDs? First off, the 9572 is a pretty basic chip. You're not going to get a CPU into it (unless you're thinking along the lines of that Motorola 1-bit "industrial controller IC" thing) but you can handle address decoding and so forth with it. They're great for high-ish speed data acquisition, and bolting onto PIC microcontrollers to take some of the load off the MCU. What you need to get started is: - The Xilinx ISE-WebPack development kit. Grab this from www.xilinx.com, it's free and runs on Windows or Linux (though the Windows version is a bit more stable). Do the web-install if you like, but I usually download the "full install" pack (10MBit internet, doesn't take long :P) and install offline. - A Xilinx JTAG cable. I use a homebrew clone of the Parallel Cable III, which is sluggish but perfectly usable. - A bit of spare time to learn a HDL language. To start with, work through the Xilinx tutorials (open ISE, Help -> ISE Manuals -> Tutorial, IIRC). The schematic entry workflow is the easiest to learn with (assuming you know a bit about digital logic in general - what the different gates do, etc). Once you've learned the schematic stuff, pick a HDL. If you know C, you'll probably find Verilog easier to learn. I tried to learn VHDL first, gave up, then switched to Verilog and found it much easier. YMMV. Google for "Verilog" or "Verilog HDL" and work through some of the tutorials. Seichi Inoue's website (http://www.hobby-elec.org/e_menu.htm) is worth a look. He uses VHDL, but there's a lot of stuff on there about the HDL-to-CPLD workflow. If you want, I'll get the microphone set up tomorrow and do a little Screencam recording of a quick barrel shifter design in ISE, including the programming stage and a quick breadboard demo (assuming I can find my A710iS digicam). -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 20 18:45:57 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:45:57 -0400 Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. In-Reply-To: <20070620145515.Q17671@shell.lmi.net> References: <46795D52.4000401@sbcglobal.net> <4679776D.2090008@atarimuseum.com> <46798866.10901@sbcglobal.net> <20070620145515.Q17671@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jun 20, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I used to have a girlfriend who claimed that you could clean eating > utensils in a dishwasher! The heathen. I'll bet she parked *cars* in the garage too, of all things. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Jun 20 19:18:13 2007 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:18:13 -0500 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <467988AE.30104@shiresoft.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> <46797513.6020009@gmail.com> <467988AE.30104@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4679C3C5.7060907@ubanproductions.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Jun 20, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> > Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus >>>> > storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more >>>> >>>> Indeed. My 11/70 has RP06s. >>> >>> Mine have SI9900s, but I'd love to throw an RH70 in one. >> >> I've got a pair of Emulex SC72s for mine...The SC72 is a set of >> boards that plugs into the RH70 slots in an 11/70, and controls SMD >> drives. I've not installed them yet, but I expect them to be very nice. > > They *are* very nice. I have 2 sets in my 11/70. One for controlling > the Eagles and the other for the CDC 9766's. > I have a couple of SC72s which I hope to use in my 11/70 to hook up both my CDC 9762, Fujitsu M2284K, and a pair of Seagate (CDC) 9720 Sabre drives. I'm hoping that the SC72 can handle the data rate of the Sabres. Does anyone know? --tom From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 20 20:12:38 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:12:38 -0600 Subject: strange Televideo terminal? in Belgium (eBay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:26:07 -0700. <345921.13163.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <345921.13163.qm at web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-TELEVIDEO-PT-100_W0QQitemZ230140614394QQihZ013QQc ategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem These are pretty common and show up on ebay several times a year. A good score for one of these would be one that included the carrying case. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jun 20 20:18:42 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:18:42 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:00:50 PDT." <46794F32.3040508@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <200706210118.l5L1Igjm028906@mwave.heeltoe.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: .. >I hope so because this is going to be a lot of work. :-) Not only do I >have to do the hardware design (and fab) but also have to write the >verilog for the FPGA and a resonable amount of code on the uC. It wasn't that hard for unibus. I don't know much about massbus, however, that might be a lot harder (no doubt). My first cpld version had the cpu doing all the work and that put a big load on the cpu; but it does do dma in both directions and can generate interrupts. I got it to boot rt-11 via a simulated rl02. I've since redesigned the cpld to take some load off the cpu. But work has gotten in the way of progress. It is nice to use a cf disk, however, as a backing store. very simple and easy to update. I just made a simple 4 layer quad width board; I used a split power plane with half the board at 5v and half at 3.3v; the cpld I used has 5v tolerant i/o. for the cpu I used an atmel sam7s, which is my current favorite arm7 cpu. I hope to get back to it this summer. -brad From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 20 20:34:00 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 20, 7 10:22:34 pm" Message-ID: <200706210134.l5L1Y0aS010844@floodgap.com> > > After that came the Bulk Hard Drive Eraser. I have one here and have just > > Inn't that a really bad idea, on the grounds you'll erase the servo > patterns and the like :-) Never stopped Rat Shock before. > > turned it o > > ROFL. ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Goldfinger" --------------------------------------- From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 20:49:33 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange Televideo terminal? in Belgium (eBay) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <93869.19668.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > > In article > <345921.13163.qm at web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, > Chris M writes: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-TELEVIDEO-PT-100_W0QQitemZ230140614394QQihZ013QQc > ategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > I have one of those - neat little thing, kinda hard to type on, the keyboard is a bit smaller than it looks. That and the stupid interface connectors point downward at an angle out the back. -Ian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 20 20:58:03 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:58:03 -0600 Subject: Emulating old computers on FPGA In-Reply-To: <00bc01c7b37e$dd357db0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <575131af0706200655h54a91b49yc044b549cf8c34a8@mail.gmail.com> <4679408B.5030602@philpem.me.uk> <00bc01c7b37e$dd357db0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4679DB2B.3080109@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Phil, would you mind in sharing a bit of your knowledge? > > I have a "starter's kit" with a 9572 but just cannot understand how > do I begin to make things work. Found no good tutorial on net. Would you > mind helping me (and possibly others on/off this list) in "how to begin > playing with CPLDs? A) Make sure the software is on your computer! B) Make sure you have the PC hardware! C) Make sure you have a good printer - all the docs now days are in PDF form. D) Don't expect to find the chip you design with today ... it is already outdated. E) *** Watch out for routing problems problems *** You can only get about 70% to 80% of the logic in CPLD used before you need to go to a bigger chip. F) Your CAD/PCB programs can handle any weird pin out often need by new chips ... they don't make CPLD's in 16 pin dips. :) That is that last reason I am not using CPLD's , I need a 84 pin PLCC socket with my PCB program. > Thanks a lot! I'm looking forward that for months! > Alexandre From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 20 20:59:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:59:34 -0600 Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. In-Reply-To: <20070620145515.Q17671@shell.lmi.net> References: <46795D52.4000401@sbcglobal.net> <4679776D.2090008@atarimuseum.com> <46798866.10901@sbcglobal.net> <20070620145515.Q17671@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4679DB86.6040609@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > I used to have a girlfriend who claimed that you could clean eating > utensils in a dishwasher! And here I thought it was used to *cook* fish! From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jun 20 21:21:25 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 03:21:25 +0100 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com><1182264485.8677.8.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <46792DCF.70203@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <00b401c7b3ab$a21a2370$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > be carefull here ;-) > games etc. use a lot of fixed point instead of floating point. I spent 6 years writing games for a living....I never once used anything other than integer math. Even in one 3D game I was involved in, we broke down the calculations to such a degree that we simply used look-up tables for everything (but then the ST came with a lot of RAM for it's day). That said, the Vectrex uses a lot of tables to do matrix transformations etc quickly too. Most interesting console I've worked with by a long chalk! > And the 68000 shines here with the 32 bit registers ... Nicest processor I've ever used. TTFN - Pete. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jun 20 21:28:02 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:28:02 -0300 Subject: Emulating old computers on FPGA References: <575131af0706200655h54a91b49yc044b549cf8c34a8@mail.gmail.com> <4679408B.5030602@philpem.me.uk><00bc01c7b37e$dd357db0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4679DB2B.3080109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <025801c7b3ab$dd82b9e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > A) Make sure the software is on your computer! Duh? > B) Make sure you have the PC hardware! Duh! > C) Make sure you have a good printer - all the docs now days > are in PDF form. DUH!!! I prefer to read on the screen. Tires me, but why spend some trees? :o) > D) Don't expect to find the chip you design with today ... > it is already outdated. U?...it is fairly easy to find 9572 here in Brazil ;o) It is even cheaper! > E) *** Watch out for routing problems problems *** But how can I spot that?? Are you talking about routing inside the CPLD?! > You can only get about 70% to 80% of the logic > in CPLD used before you need to go to a bigger chip. Sure! > F) Your CAD/PCB programs can handle any weird pin out > often need by new chips ... they don't make CPLD's in > 16 pin dips. :) That is that last reason I am not using > CPLD's , I need a 84 pin PLCC socket with my PCB program. Diptrace is a good program, take a look at that! ;o) Thanks Alexandre From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 20 21:47:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:47:35 -0600 Subject: Emulating old computers on FPGA In-Reply-To: <025801c7b3ab$dd82b9e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <575131af0706200655h54a91b49yc044b549cf8c34a8@mail.gmail.com> <4679408B.5030602@philpem.me.uk><00bc01c7b37e$dd357db0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4679DB2B.3080109@jetnet.ab.ca> <025801c7b3ab$dd82b9e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4679E6C7.40200@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> E) *** Watch out for routing problems problems *** > > But how can I spot that?? Are you talking about routing inside the > CPLD?! Yes. But the only way to find out is to build your design. >> You can only get about 70% to 80% of the logic >> in CPLD used before you need to go to a bigger chip. > > Sure! Or you run in to pin locking problems. This where a design is sensitive to the I/O pin assignments used. Pins assigned A B C D may not work, but pins assigned B D C A might.Or you assign pins A B C D and the router desides to re-order it as B C A D. >> F) Your CAD/PCB programs can handle any weird pin out >> often need by new chips ... they don't make CPLD's in >> 16 pin dips. :) That is that last reason I am not using >> CPLD's , I need a 84 pin PLCC socket with my PCB program. > > Diptrace is a good program, take a look at that! ;o) I gone to using 2901's and LS TTL. I still have a few more things to design until I am ready for a $$$ PCB program. > Thanks > Alexandre > > . > From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 20 22:01:06 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:01:06 -0500 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <2cbc8a1a0706200445s90d91e3ra3d86025304c1f64@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> <4677616D.1080404@gmail.com> <46782D6E.2080507@oldskool.org> <2cbc8a1a0706200445s90d91e3ra3d86025304c1f64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4679E9F2.10300@oldskool.org> Don Hills wrote: >> If I were to implement some additional-storage format, I'd probably put >> more/larger sectors on the outer tracks where there is more surface >> area. I believe Mac and Amiga formats did this, although I'm not aware >> of the particulars. > > With PC hardware, the sector size is irrelevant with respect to inner > versus > outer tracks. 3.5 inch drives have a constant RPM and a constant write > clock I didn't explain myself well. I used to format high-quality diskettes in the early 1990s as 21-sector instead of 18, and I consistently saw errors after about a year of storage on the inner tracks (and never on the outer tracks). I wasn't speaking from a storage standpoint, but rather from a reliability standpoint. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 22:10:51 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:10:51 -0500 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <624966d60706202010lfddfd61tee2ff8788a01c716@mail.gmail.com> I think the RH11 is in a nine slot backplane. Most DEC RH controllers are still available. Paul Anderson On 6/20/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jun 20, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > The 11/[750,780,785,790,795] has Massbus too. > >> > >> Well they *can*. As can many PDP-11s. So yes, I suppose you have > >> a point! > > > > I haven't tried to find an RH-11 recently, but an RH750 is a single > > card (no backplane required), with a simple cable arrangement from the > > 11/750 backplane to the I/O bulkhead area (theoretically, depending on > > how a modern Massbus device was constructed, one could even just run a > > trio of 40-pin cables between the 11/750 backplane and the new device, > > and bypass "real" Massbus cables). > > An RH-11 is a four-slot backplane full of cards. And the most > static-sensitive piece of DEC equipment I have *ever* seen. > > > I would almost expect that every 11/780 that's still running these > > days has an RH780, but I doubt that's a very large pool of machines. > > At least 11/750s are small enough to run in a home/office environment. > > Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus > > storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more > > likely, the PDP-10 crowd. I know I'd rather run a 3.5" IDE drive > > attached to some electronics than an RP07 for every-day use. > > Well I'd love to have one for my PDP-11/70, but at least I do have > other disk options for it, so it's not as urgent. The KS10, on the > other hand, is a big paperweight without a TU45 and a MASSBUS- > attached disk. > > > I don't have hard numbers in front of me, but am of the opinion that > > there are enough hobbyists who would buy a new Massbus disk to make > > the effort worthwhile. > > Well, with VAXen in mind, I'd be inclined to agree...though it's > not really that difficult to get non-MASSBUS disks on VAXen. > > > Of couse there are more who could use a Unibus > > disk, but that's no reason not to take a stab at Massbus. > > No, absolutely not...and I'd love to see it happen. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 22:21:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:21:00 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <00b401c7b3ab$a21a2370$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <200706181529.l5IFTM8J019890@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> <4676F527.1000302@oldskool.org> <007701c7b206$d3def260$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46774FDF.9040508@oldskool.org> <7005FD72-09B7-4403-A8E3-779673FBDA17@colourfull.com> <1182264485.8677.8.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> <46792DCF.70203@e-bbes.com> <00b401c7b3ab$a21a2370$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: On 6/20/07, Ensor wrote: > > And the 68000 shines here with the 32 bit registers ... > > Nicest processor I've ever used. I saw the preliminary data sheet around 1979, after I'd been banging around the 6502 for a bit, and totally fell in love with the 68K. I finally got my hands on one in 1984 - much fun ensued. -ethan From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Jun 20 23:09:18 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <0JJX00JJFLXBEQV8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/20/07, Roger Ivie wrote: >> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: >> > It's an easy cpu to interface and use... > >> >> However, it's not without its obnoxious bits. >> >> On the T-11, all writes are performed as read-modify-writes. > > Hmm... was that because of the needs of core memory, or was it just to > simplify some aspect of its internal design? I don't know anything about the internals, so I can't say. Although AFAIK core was pretty much gone by the time the T-11 happened, it may have been based on an earlier design that did interface to core. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 20 23:09:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:09:56 -0700 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <4679E9F2.10300@oldskool.org> References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne>, <2cbc8a1a0706200445s90d91e3ra3d86025304c1f64@mail.gmail.com>, <4679E9F2.10300@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <467997A4.21601.69D66399@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jun 2007 at 22:01, Jim Leonard wrote: > I didn't explain myself well. I used to format high-quality diskettes > in the early 1990s as 21-sector instead of 18, and I consistently saw > errors after about a year of storage on the inner tracks (and never on > the outer tracks). I wasn't speaking from a storage standpoint, but > rather from a reliability standpoint. You'd have likely seen nearly the same errors if you'd formatted the floppies as 18 sectors. The issues of reliability come in when writing, not reading. 21 sectors gives you something like an 8-byte gap (i'll calculate it if you want). 8 bytes is .00064 of a track, so if your spindle speed is too fast, you can easily overwrite the gap. But as far as bit-packing density goes, 18 and 21 sectors are the same. I would submit that by the early 1990's, there weren't any high- quality DSHD diskettes. DSED were even worse. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 20 23:18:57 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:18:57 -0600 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: References: <0JJX00JJFLXBEQV8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4679FC31.4040400@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Ivie wrote: > I don't know anything about the internals, so I can't say. Although > AFAIK core was pretty much gone by the time the T-11 happened, it may > have been based on an earlier design that did interface to core. I think a read modify write may have made Dynamic ram interface simpler. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 20 17:44:06 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:44:06 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <0JJY00L2NHTFHINI@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:22:25 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 6/20/07, Roger Ivie wrote: >> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: >> > It's an easy cpu to interface and use... > >> >> However, it's not without its obnoxious bits. >> >> On the T-11, all writes are performed as read-modify-writes. > >Hmm... was that because of the needs of core memory, or was it just to >simplify some aspect of its internal design? It's part of the memory to memory design and the way intructions work. It's annying as micros go but ALL PDP-11s word that way and the T-11 is a PDP-11 in LSI. >RMW cycles are typically no problem with main memory, but I've seen >problems with them in a number of situations involving I/O, typically >involving "clever" peripherals that take a read of some register as a >trigger signal, but also with some 68000-family designs where you >weren't allowed to use instructions in your code which invoked RMW >cycles because they weren't interruptible (intentionally) and could >cause interrupt or instruction-restart problems. Yep the fix is easy. The read address is dirrent from the write address. So when the system doe sthe read before write or Read modify write it only touches the address register for thatread or write as desired. >At least with the 68000, RMW cycles were rarely done by real-world >code, and never accidentally. > >With a from-scratch T-11 SBC, one could, I'd expect, select I/O >peripherals that wouldn't be subject to side-effects (like clearing >status bits on reads), but that's a lot harder when you have a mandate >to use a particular vendor's chip and the chip tries to be clever. Easy, make the read and write different addresses. Just like PDP-11s do. Allison From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jun 20 23:59:48 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:59:48 -0700 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <624966d60706202010lfddfd61tee2ff8788a01c716@mail.gmail.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> <624966d60706202010lfddfd61tee2ff8788a01c716@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467A05C4.9050707@shiresoft.com> Paul Anderson wrote: > I think the RH11 is in a nine slot backplane. Most DEC RH controllers > are > still available. No, the RH11 is in a 4 slot backplane. If you know where there are RH20's I'd like to know. :-) > > Paul Anderson > > > On 6/20/07, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> On Jun 20, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> > The 11/[750,780,785,790,795] has Massbus too. >> >> >> >> Well they *can*. As can many PDP-11s. So yes, I suppose you have >> >> a point! >> > >> > I haven't tried to find an RH-11 recently, but an RH750 is a single >> > card (no backplane required), with a simple cable arrangement from the >> > 11/750 backplane to the I/O bulkhead area (theoretically, depending on >> > how a modern Massbus device was constructed, one could even just run a >> > trio of 40-pin cables between the 11/750 backplane and the new device, >> > and bypass "real" Massbus cables). >> >> An RH-11 is a four-slot backplane full of cards. And the most >> static-sensitive piece of DEC equipment I have *ever* seen. >> >> > I would almost expect that every 11/780 that's still running these >> > days has an RH780, but I doubt that's a very large pool of machines. >> > At least 11/750s are small enough to run in a home/office environment. >> > Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus >> > storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more >> > likely, the PDP-10 crowd. I know I'd rather run a 3.5" IDE drive >> > attached to some electronics than an RP07 for every-day use. >> >> Well I'd love to have one for my PDP-11/70, but at least I do have >> other disk options for it, so it's not as urgent. The KS10, on the >> other hand, is a big paperweight without a TU45 and a MASSBUS- >> attached disk. >> >> > I don't have hard numbers in front of me, but am of the opinion that >> > there are enough hobbyists who would buy a new Massbus disk to make >> > the effort worthwhile. >> >> Well, with VAXen in mind, I'd be inclined to agree...though it's >> not really that difficult to get non-MASSBUS disks on VAXen. >> >> > Of couse there are more who could use a Unibus >> > disk, but that's no reason not to take a stab at Massbus. >> >> No, absolutely not...and I'd love to see it happen. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> >> >> > > -- TTFN - Guy From jam at magic.com Thu Jun 21 00:26:04 2007 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Massbus simulation Message-ID: <200706210526.WAA19028@mist.magic.com> > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > > > > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Jun 20, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>>> > Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus > >>>> > storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more > >>>> > >>>> Indeed. My 11/70 has RP06s. > >>> > >>> Mine have SI9900s, but I'd love to throw an RH70 in one. > >> > >> I've got a pair of Emulex SC72s for mine...The SC72 is a set of > >> boards that plugs into the RH70 slots in an 11/70, and controls SMD > >> drives. I've not installed them yet, but I expect them to be very nice. > > > > They *are* very nice. I have 2 sets in my 11/70. One for controlling > > the Eagles and the other for the CDC 9766's. > > > > I have a couple of SC72s which I hope to use in my 11/70 to hook up > both my CDC 9762, Fujitsu M2284K, and a pair of Seagate (CDC) 9720 Sabre > drives. I'm hoping that the SC72 can handle the data rate of the Sabres. > Does anyone know? I have an SC70 in my 11/70 and a couple of RH70's. I've also got one complete RH11. But, no Massbus peripherals, so I cannot test those out. I'm looking forward to Guy's emulator! RL02's just aren't big enough for real work on an 11/70. James Markevitch From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 02:01:24 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 03:01:24 -0400 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: <6AF5E87E-B737-4773-BDF4-EC704D0824E7@neurotica.com> References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> <46797513.6020009@gmail.com> <6AF5E87E-B737-4773-BDF4-EC704D0824E7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <467A2244.1000003@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 20, 2007, at 2:42 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Even so, I'd think the most obvious consumers of a new Massbus >>> storage device would probably be either the 11/70 crowd, or, more >> >> Indeed. My 11/70 has RP06s. > > You got another one?? I still have my dad's old one. Peace... Sridhar From elf at ucsd.edu Thu Jun 21 02:37:44 2007 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:37:44 -0700 Subject: 2 pieces of Classic gear available in San Diego, California Message-ID: <200706210737.l5L7bv4k078844@smtp.ucsd.edu> Hi folks, I have a couple pieces of Classic Computer gear I'm off-loading. (And there is more to come in the following weeks, so keep your eyes open :-) WHERE THESE ITEMS ARE LOCATED: San Diego, California, USA. SHIPPING: I will not ship, sorry -- local pickup only. I paid dearly for one of these items (the terminal), so I'm looking to get back a bit for it (way less than half of what it cost me, and to have it shipped to me. These terminals are heavy -- on the order of 35lbs-40lbs.) --------- Item (1) --------- Lear Siegler ADM-5 serial terminal WITH original User Manual. I would like $60.00 for this terminal and original User Manual. It DOES work! AND, this terminal DOES NOT suffer from the dreaded screen-rot (a.k.a. mold growing under the protective CRT face plate). Photos: (Note: the screen shot of some characters I took is _blurry_ because of my bad picture taking technique -- the screen produces crisp characters.) http://home.san.rr.com/instep/gear/Lear-Siegler-ADM5 --------- Item (2) --------- Amiga 1000 -- with keyboard -- mouse -- with external 3-1/2 disk drive No monitor. Worked last time I hooked it up to a monitor back in 2004. A bit of yellowing on the casing of all parts, and a bit of grunge (which can be cleaned, I'd imagine.) This is a _freebie_ -- no charge. Photos: http://home.san.rr.com/instep/gear/Amiga-1000/ Contact me OFF-LIST if interested. --ef From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 21 06:02:45 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 07:02:45 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <0JJZ006DQG0FZWKC@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > From: woodelf > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:18:57 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Roger Ivie wrote: > >> I don't know anything about the internals, so I can't say. Although >> AFAIK core was pretty much gone by the time the T-11 happened, it may >> have been based on an earlier design that did interface to core. >I think a read modify write may have made Dynamic ram interface simpler. > No. RMW was PDP11. However some instructions would read, alter the value and write it back. Very useful for autoincrement addressing. It also had to be that way to be compatable with ALL previous PDP11s. Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jun 21 03:33:38 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:33:38 +0100 Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. In-Reply-To: <012c01c7b381$1b064fa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <46795D52.4000401@sbcglobal.net> <012c01c7b381$1b064fa0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <1182414818.17794.2.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 18:21 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > If you're curious, a Mac USB keyboard successfully cleaned in a > > dishwasher: > > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/20/keyboard_dishwash/ > > Nothing incredible here, I do that with my IBM model M, and put it on > the sun to dry :oD *ON* the sun? Jeez, those things are tougher than I thought... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jun 21 03:39:44 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:39:44 +0100 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <467997A4.21601.69D66399@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne> , <2cbc8a1a0706200445s90d91e3ra3d86025304c1f64@mail.gmail.com> , <4679E9F2.10300@oldskool.org> <467997A4.21601.69D66399@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1182415184.17794.8.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 21:09 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I would submit that by the early 1990's, there weren't any high- > quality DSHD diskettes. DSED were even worse. I have: 8" disks that came with my PDP-11/73, some of which have labels dated in the late 1970s and early 1980s. They all read fine in my RX02. 5.25" disks that came with my Sanyo MBC- CP/M-86 machine. They read fine. 3.5" DD disks formatted to around 400k single-sided for my Ensoniq Mirage sampler, the oldest from around 1985, the newest being NOS 3.5" DD disks off eBay. They all work fine, except for one or two that were rewritten in a Mirage with a dodgy drive - I suspect they've got stuff written "between tracks" and won't format correctly now. 3.5" DD disks from around 1990 for my Ensoniq EPS sampler. They work fine. 3.5" HD disks from around 1995 for my E-Mu ESi-4000 sampler. They work fine. 3.5" HD disks bought about four years ago - opened a packet recently and half of them won't even format. One managed to fatally gunge the head of my PC's floppy drive. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 21 06:08:34 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 07:08:34 -0400 Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements Message-ID: <0JJZ00863GA5UWF6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:56:02 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 20 Jun 2007 at 8:49, Allison wrote: > >> What made the box notable was floppies in the crate rather than external >> box and only a LED (power on) on the front pannel. It was one of the early >> turnkey systems and became popular with applications/system integrators >> for that reason. The reason being it was now possible to sell a small(then) >> system that was powerful enough to be a complete office accounting system. >> It didn't hurt that the wood cover fit into office decor of the time. >> The wood disappeard when FCC started forcing RFI constraints. By RFI I mean the kind of interferfence from the disgital switching action that could blanket communications bands. >There was a good reason for that. A friend had purchased one of the >Integrand S-100 boxes with a floppy cutout. He'd installed an SA-400 >(IIRC) and complained that it wouldn't work reliably. What I >discovered was that the field from the large power transformer was >playing hob with the drive electronics. I installed a substantial >steel shield around the floppy and the problem abated. NS* Horizon never had a transformer magnetic field problem. And the drives are only a few inches from the transformer. The problem may have been the CVC transfomer used in some Integrand boxes. Those radiate a larger magnetic field. > >When I purchased my own Integrand box, I opted for the drive-less >model. > >Even on the Durango box, we had to shield both the drives and the >small monitor that sat over them to get reliable drive operation. > I have an NS* Advantage and they also apparently did it right as the drives behave well without steel shield plates. Allison >Cheers, >Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 21 10:56:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:56:48 -0700 Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements In-Reply-To: <0JJZ00863GA5UWF6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JJZ00863GA5UWF6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <467A3D50.9729.6C5D8C96@cclist.sydex.com> Orientation of the drive with respect to the power transformer on the Integrand was important. Changing the position by 90 degrees offered a substantial improvement, but that wasn't an option, as the panel was delivered pre-cut for a drive. On 21 Jun 2007 at 7:08, Allison wrote: > I have an NS* Advantage and they also apparently did it right as the drives > behave well without steel shield plates. It could be that some drives are more sensitive to this sort of thing than others--and that some monitors orient components in exactly the wrong way. In the case of the Durango, the monitor was a small 9" Ball Brothers OEM model and the drives were Micropolis 100 TPI models. The large carriage stepper motor on the integrated printer was less than an inch away from the B: drive. Another reason to shield things. Most "PC" boxes from the 1970's had some sort of basic design problem; EMI radition being only one of them (Did the Horizon pass VDE certification?). Most couldn't withstand a hipot attack; very few could survive a thermal stress or shake table session without having a component with "flying leads" dismount, or having cards pop out of the backplane connectors. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 21 11:03:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:03:01 -0700 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <1182415184.17794.8.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne>, <467997A4.21601.69D66399@cclist.sydex.com>, <1182415184.17794.8.camel@gordonjcp-desktop> Message-ID: <467A3EC5.19155.6C633E8B@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jun 2007 at 9:39, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > 3.5" HD disks from around 1995 for my E-Mu ESi-4000 sampler. They work > fine. Have you reformatted any these lately? I find that diskettes written back in 1995 are readable, but very few of them are reusable. OTOH, the DS2D media we purchased in bulk right up through 2000 works fine to this day. In the grand scheme of reliability, I think that 3.5" DSHD and DSED are not the best choices. Cheers, Chuck From vp at drexel.edu Thu Jun 21 11:39:17 2007 From: vp at drexel.edu (Vassilis PREVELAKIS) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:39:17 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Trouble with HP 59309A Digital Clock Message-ID: <200706211639.l5LGdHg8007634@aegis.prevelakis.com> "Pat Walsh" wrote: > Just got one of these for a desk clock and need to > know how to set the calendar addressed setting. Hi, I have the manual but I won't be able to get to it for 1-2 months (wrong continent :-). Do you want to know how to use it, or how to repair it? The manual tells you both. NOTE: Before you use it be sure to open the clock to check if the backup 9V battery is still inside. If so, you will hve a lot of cleaning to do. Use lemon juice or vinegar to clean things up. Using it as a desk clock is easy, you jsut power it up, open the metal flap under the display on the front. You then press reset to clear the clock and press the buttons to set he correct day of the year and time. There is also a switch called INT/EXT (or smth) move it to the INT position (internal time reference) If you intend to keep the clock mostly powered off, do not bother to install a battery inside, it will suck it dry in a day or two. Controlling it via the HPIB is also easy, you just send a string over HP-IB to set it and thn you can simply trigger it to read the time. Also check the underside of the clock, it should contain instructions on how to address it and set it remotely. Its pretty easy, depending on what kind of HPIB controller you have. E.g. on the Series 80 you read it with smth like INPUT 706, A$ and set it with , say, OUTPUT 706, "RPDDDDDDDDDDDDHHMMMMMT" R: reset clock DDDDDDDDDDDD: advance teh day to the 12th of the year (Jan 12) HH: advance hour to 2am MMMMM: advance minute to 5, T: start clock at 02:05 on Jan 12 This assumes that the clock is strapped as unit 6 of the HP-IB bus. Most of the above is from memory (just looking at the underside of my 59309A), so there may be some errors. **vp From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 21 11:49:56 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:49:56 -0500 Subject: Floppy Disc Capacities [was Pictures of My Machine Room (So Far)] In-Reply-To: <467997A4.21601.69D66399@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000001c7b22b$58fafc90$6401a8c0@Wayne>, <2cbc8a1a0706200445s90d91e3ra3d86025304c1f64@mail.gmail.com>, <4679E9F2.10300@oldskool.org> <467997A4.21601.69D66399@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <467AAC34.5000404@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I would submit that by the early 1990's, there weren't any high- > quality DSHD diskettes. DSED were even worse. I can agree to that, sure. I still have "fond" memories of the 3.5" "punchers" that would "turn a 3.5" DSDD into DSHD". They worked just fine -- as long as you didn't want to read the data 6 months later... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jun 21 12:02:57 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 13:02:57 -0400 Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:04:58 EDT." <5B901B30-E76E-4A52-85B2-230C27662351@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200706211702.l5LH2va7004506@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >On Jun 19, 2007, at 1:30 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Providing the word length is a multiable of 4 bits that is. >> >> It sure would be "fun" to debug microcode issues with nine of those >> puppies chained together. > > Have logic analyzer, will travel.. heh. have pc based simulator, will debug... :-) writing code to emulate the lisp machine microcode was not that hard, but getting it *exactly* right turned out to be difficult, mostly due to not understanding some of the math pipeline issues. That uses 48 bit wide microcode and 78181's as alu slices. if one were planning to make a ks20 out of an fpga, with microcode, I'd recommend writing a simulator for the microcode first and booting something in simulation. then, when you go to do the hdl you'll having something known to work, at least in one context. i've run the lisp machine verilog in modelsim up through the first disk i/o. I would think a pdp-10 would not that much more complex. (oh boy, i'll live to eat those words :-) -brad From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 21 05:56:48 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:56:48 +0100 Subject: Computer porn book.... :-) Message-ID: <200706211056.LAA00356@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, This week's New Scientist magazine carries a report of a new book called "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman, pub. Chronicle Books, ISBN 1780811854429. It's a collection of photographs of vintage computer equiment, inspired by a visit by the author to VCF in 2003. Anyone seen a copy? Is it worth investing in? The New Scientist article has a photo of part of the Apollo Guidance computer, the modules clearly marked "Engineering Prototype". -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 20 17:36:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:36:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: <20070620135130.M17671@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 20, 7 01:52:26 pm Message-ID: > > . . . and, if you magnetize the ferrous hub and shutter of 3.5" > diskettes, then you can store them on the refrigerator Getting serious for a moment, it suprised me at first that 3.5" floppy disks (and for that matter many demountable hard disk packs, RK's, RLs, etc) are held to the spindle by a magnetic ring on the end of said spindle. It doesn't seem to have an adverse effect on the data... Incidentally, I always rip the shutters off defective 3.5" floppies. I've used said shutters for many applications that need a bit of shim stock (like inserting and removing flexiprints from a certain design of connector). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 20 17:39:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:39:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. In-Reply-To: <20070620145515.Q17671@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 20, 7 02:57:38 pm Message-ID: > > I used to have a girlfriend who claimed that you could clean eating > utensils in a dishwasher! Next she'll be telling you that the oven is for cooking food, and not, say, for baking out transoformers, curing enamel paint, etc -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 21 13:44:46 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) In-Reply-To: <200706211702.l5LH2va7004506@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200706211702.l5LH2va7004506@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200706211848.OAA24733@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > writing code to emulate the lisp machine microcode was not that hard, > but getting it *exactly* right turned out to be difficult, [...] Heh. I have a MicroVAX-II simulator that's sort of on hold. I had similar issues; there are some undocumented (as far as I can tell) aspects of the hardware which the ROM POST code depends on. (For example, the CPU has an instruction stream prefetch buffer, and the hardware can run out of the prefetch buffer even though the stuff there is not what would be fetched from those addresses now, under some circumstances. I had to give the simulator a prefetch buffer. :-/) Now, I'm stuck dealing with some serial line timing issues.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jun 21 13:53:43 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:53:43 -0300 Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. References: Message-ID: <04ab01c7b436$33015ef0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Next she'll be telling you that the oven is for cooking food, and not, > say, for baking out transoformers, curing enamel paint, etc What is food? Is it to be eaten or to use in the hair? ;oO From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 21 14:36:22 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:36:22 +0100 Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) In-Reply-To: <200706211848.OAA24733@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <002601c7b43b$74c1da40$5b01a8c0@uatempname> der Mouse wrote: > > Heh. I have a MicroVAX-II simulator that's sort of on hold. I had > similar issues; there are some undocumented (as far as I can tell) > aspects of the hardware which the ROM POST code depends on. (For > example, the CPU has an instruction stream prefetch buffer, and the > hardware can run out of the prefetch buffer even though the stuff > there is not what would be fetched from those addresses now, under > some circumstances. I had to give the simulator a prefetch buffer. > :-/) I've scanned the 78032 manual and I'm sure it's online somewhere. I'd be (very) surprised if the IB is not documented somewhere in there. Console code generally pulls all kinds of tricks to try and work reliably even in a context where the user could mangle almost any bit of memory from the console. making full use of the hardware is just par for the course! Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 21 14:52:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:52:45 -0700 Subject: OT: demagnetization In-Reply-To: References: <20070620135130.M17671@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 20, 7 01:52:26 pm, Message-ID: <467A749D.7628.6D359147@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jun 2007 at 23:36, Tony Duell wrote: > Getting serious for a moment, it suprised me at first that 3.5" floppy > disks (and for that matter many demountable hard disk packs, RK's, RLs, > etc) are held to the spindle by a magnetic ring on the end of said > spindle. It doesn't seem to have an adverse effect on the data... DC magnetic fields, unless VERY strong (read NIB magnet in contact with the surface) seem not to have much of an effect on recorded data on floppies. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 21 14:57:57 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:57:57 -0700 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 Message-ID: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> The wisdom of using this stuff was being discussed on another mailing list, so I thought I'd see what people knew about it. I suspect it is similar to this: http://www.stabilant.com/techt20h.htm There seems to be almost nothing on the web about what the Caig stuff actually is. Materials safety data sheet lists ingredients as 'trade secret' Reasonable discussion of the Stabilant stuff in patent #4696832 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 21 15:05:26 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:05:26 -0400 Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements Message-ID: <0JK00047S54Z0RFB@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:56:48 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Orientation of the drive with respect to the power transformer on the >Integrand was important. Changing the position by 90 degrees offered >a substantial improvement, but that wasn't an option, as the panel >was delivered pre-cut for a drive. > >On 21 Jun 2007 at 7:08, Allison wrote: > >> I have an NS* Advantage and they also apparently did it right as the drives >> behave well without steel shield plates. > >It could be that some drives are more sensitive to this sort of thing >than others--and that some monitors orient components in exactly the >wrong way. In the case of the Durango, the monitor was a small 9" >Ball Brothers OEM model and the drives were Micropolis 100 TPI >models. > >The large carriage stepper motor on the integrated printer was less >than an inch away from the B: drive. Another reason to shield >things. ;) there were a lot of design goofs out there. Actually the worst flub is the external drive setups with power supplies independent of the main box. I think there may have been three FDC cards made that suppressed WE/ if the power failed. If there was a disk in the drive.. wave byebye as it did a motor on, head load and write "1" to all drives. >Most "PC" boxes from the 1970's had some sort of basic design >problem; EMI radition being only one of them (Did the Horizon pass >VDE certification?). Most couldn't withstand a hipot attack; very >few could survive a thermal stress or shake table session without >having a component with "flying leads" dismount, or having cards pop >out of the backplane connectors. Most S100 crates could not pass VDE or a serious hipot attack. Don't know if the Horizon did or did not as it predated most of those certifications and likely was grandfathered in like many. Vibration testing, "ya gotta be kiddin", as there isn't a card restraint in 99% of the crates.. Some like the pre-B Altairs flexed so much if lifted by opposing corners the cards would pop out unless they had a one peice mother board. Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Jun 21 16:10:31 2007 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:10:31 -0700 Subject: OT ? X-rays and BGAs was: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray References: <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org><5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com><6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com><200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20070102222341.039353f8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <000701c7b448$9d7405a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Stockly" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 1:20 AM Subject: Re: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray Grant wrote; > X-rays really won't help too much for soldering BGA devices. With x-rays > you can't tell the difference between 2 pieces of .25" steel stacked on > each other or 1 piece of .5" steel when x-raying through the thickness. > I beg to differ. We ( Raytheon / Hughes ) exclusively use X-ray and Boundary Scan to make certain BGAs are mounted / soldered correctly and electrically connected. We would be blind and dead in the water without these. Best regards, Steven From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 21 16:22:15 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:22:15 -0600 Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <467AEC07.6020606@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Next she'll be telling you that the oven is for cooking food, and not, > say, for baking out transoformers, curing enamel paint, etc I use it store my frying pans. > -tony PS. Food is stuff you eat beside your COLA. (Wait that is for programmers -- hardware people have not been that stereotyped yet. :) ) I think a lot a people need to learn the proper way to clean a good keyboard. $5 keyboards you can hand to the gorilla at the zoo and get it back better than what I expect a dishwasher do to your inside of the keyboard. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 16:56:21 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:56:21 -0500 Subject: Computer porn book.... :-) In-Reply-To: <200706211056.LAA00356@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200706211056.LAA00356@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <51ea77730706211456u7da425c4t8bc30ae915aaf64b@mail.gmail.com> On 6/21/07, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > This week's New Scientist magazine carries a report of a new book called > "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman, pub. Chronicle Books, > ISBN 1780811854429. It's a collection of photographs of vintage computer > equiment, inspired by a visit by the author to VCF in 2003. > Anyone seen a copy? Is it worth investing in? I just visited VCF last weekend while in the area for work, and picked up the book. Two co-workers already want a copy of their own. It's basically a series of very lovely photos of various pieces of their collection. Perhaps a bit heavy on the close-ups of core memory and wiring stacks, but hey, some of us get off on that, too :) I'm not sure where it can be ordered online. VCF's site doesn't seem to sell their gift shop items (which is unfortunate, as I didn't see their really cool poster of old computer advertising while there.) Price at the shop was about $30. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 16:57:25 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:57:25 -0500 Subject: Computer porn book.... :-) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706211456u7da425c4t8bc30ae915aaf64b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200706211056.LAA00356@citadel.metropolis.local> <51ea77730706211456u7da425c4t8bc30ae915aaf64b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730706211457s595e64c2tf2ef7f032cea515d@mail.gmail.com> On 6/21/07, Jason T wrote: > > I'm not sure where it can be ordered online. VCF's site doesn't seem Oops, Amazon has it. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 21 17:46:07 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:46:07 -0400 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20070621224608.06E82BA4478@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Al Kossow wrote: > The wisdom of using this stuff was being discussed on another mailing > list, so I thought I'd see what people knew about it. I suspect it is > similar to this: > > http://www.stabilant.com/techt20h.htm > > There seems to be almost nothing on the web about what the Caig stuff > actually is. Materials safety data sheet lists ingredients as 'trade secret' > > Reasonable discussion of the Stabilant stuff in patent #4696832 For a lot of purposes I like Caig DeoxIT. It's definitely better than the old "tuner cleaners" in terms of being more than a short-term fix. There's a long catalog of Caig products and I don't think there are as many actual applications as they have product variants :-). Tim. From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jun 21 18:49:36 2007 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:49:36 -0700 Subject: Computer porn book.... :-) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706211456u7da425c4t8bc30ae915aaf64b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200706211056.LAA00356@citadel.metropolis.local> <51ea77730706211456u7da425c4t8bc30ae915aaf64b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A776199-D45D-462E-B0C9-6C23F790D6F1@loomcom.com> On Jun 21, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Jason T wrote: > On 6/21/07, Stan Barr wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This week's New Scientist magazine carries a report of a new book >> called >> "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman, pub. Chronicle Books, >> ISBN 1780811854429. It's a collection of photographs of vintage >> computer >> equiment, inspired by a visit by the author to VCF in 2003. >> Anyone seen a copy? Is it worth investing in? > > I just visited VCF last weekend while in the area for work, and picked > up the book. Two co-workers already want a copy of their own. It's > basically a series of very lovely photos of various pieces of their > collection. Perhaps a bit heavy on the close-ups of core memory and > wiring stacks, but hey, some of us get off on that, too :) > > I'm not sure where it can be ordered online. VCF's site doesn't seem > to sell their gift shop items (which is unfortunate, as I didn't see > their really cool poster of old computer advertising while there.) > > Price at the shop was about $30. CHM != VCF :) I can vouch for the book, though. I bought a copy at the Computer History Museum book signing a few weeks ago. It could have a bit more variety and a LOT more tech details, but it's not bad as coffee- table computer porn! The photos are quite well done. -Seth From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 21 19:23:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:23:51 -0700 Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements In-Reply-To: <0JK00047S54Z0RFB@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JK00047S54Z0RFB@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <467AB427.12603.6E2DC460@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jun 2007 at 16:05, Allison wrote: >> Actually the worst flub is the external drive setups with power > supplies independent of the main box. I think there may have been > three FDC cards made that suppressed WE/ if the power failed. If > there was a disk in the drive.. wave byebye as it did a motor on, > head load and write "1" to all drives. A really simple fix on the drive end (gate WE/ only if STEP/ isn't asserted) but rarely done. Were there any drives out there that were smart enough to do this? It might have also taken care of the "upside down" cable problem. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jun 21 21:31:08 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:31:08 -0700 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 Message-ID: >From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > >Al Kossow wrote: > > The wisdom of using this stuff was being discussed on another mailing > > list, so I thought I'd see what people knew about it. I suspect it is > > similar to this: > > > > http://www.stabilant.com/techt20h.htm > > > > There seems to be almost nothing on the web about what the Caig stuff > > actually is. Materials safety data sheet lists ingredients as 'trade >secret' > > > > Reasonable discussion of the Stabilant stuff in patent #4696832 > >For a lot of purposes I like Caig DeoxIT. It's definitely better >than the old "tuner cleaners" in terms of being more than a short-term >fix. There's a long catalog of Caig products and I don't think there >are as many actual applications as they have product variants :-). > >Tim. Hi I will again give a pitch for what I've used. I have a TV that the turret contact that were silver plated had warn out, leaving just brass. This was more than 10 years ago. I tried the tuner cleaners but that would only last less than a week. I then tried a little DC#4 silicon grease. To make a long story short, I'm still using that TV today although I only tend to watch once a week now. I did watch most every night for some time. Now if I could only find the intermittent in the vertical drive. I wiggle things and it comes right back. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Who's that on the Red Carpet? Play & win glamorous prizes. http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=REDCARPET_hotmailtextlink3 From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 21:38:14 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 21:38:14 -0500 Subject: Computer porn book.... :-) In-Reply-To: <5A776199-D45D-462E-B0C9-6C23F790D6F1@loomcom.com> References: <200706211056.LAA00356@citadel.metropolis.local> <51ea77730706211456u7da425c4t8bc30ae915aaf64b@mail.gmail.com> <5A776199-D45D-462E-B0C9-6C23F790D6F1@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730706211938x2798ece7o6a97364fe5c8e899@mail.gmail.com> On 6/21/07, Seth Morabito wrote: > CHM != VCF :) Heh, d'oh. I had VCF on the brain from trying to figure out how to make it down there this year :) Yes, I was at CHM, and it ruled. And they have a gift shop. And it's got cool stuff too. From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Jun 21 23:40:19 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:40:19 -0400 Subject: PICS: VCF E '07 Photos - PET 30th Anniv - CBM Prototypes Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070622003739.02e10dc0@mail.degnanco.net> I have updated my web site. http://www.vintagecomputer.net Commodore PET 30th Anniversary Commodore Prototype Photos from VCF East 2007 Commodore Midwest Regional Staff Newsletter Archives Herb Johnson's New History of CP/M Web Site Using Toggle Switches to Analyze Memory Lobo MAX 80 Exatron Stringy Floppy Bill D From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jun 21 23:56:05 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 21:56:05 -0700 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200706212156.05586.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 21 June 2007 12:57, Al Kossow wrote: > The wisdom of using this stuff was being discussed on another mailing > list, so I thought I'd see what people knew about it. I suspect it is > similar to this: > > http://www.stabilant.com/techt20h.htm > > There seems to be almost nothing on the web about what the Caig stuff > actually is. Materials safety data sheet lists ingredients as 'trade > secret' > > Reasonable discussion of the Stabilant stuff in patent #4696832 I've used it for years on PDP-8/x, PDP-11/xx, Lisa, etc. systems I've restored with excellent results. I wouldn't think of restoring a system that had plugable modules without it... IIRC, I first found out about it from space and military related equipment that used it for long-term (as in 10-20 years) reliable computer module/board contacts. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Jun 22 01:13:23 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 08:13:23 +0200 Subject: Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers. Message-ID: <20070622061323.92920@gmx.net> From: Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 18:21 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Nothing incredible here, I do that with my IBM model M, and put it > > on the sun to dry :oD > > *ON* the sun? Jeez, those things are tougher than I thought... > > Gordon He didn't state which model sun though...I suspect it would have to be an Enterprise-class or something, since all the smaller ones blow their hot air out on the *sides* not the top. A SPARCserver 1000 makes an effective hot-air drier (or room heater), let me tell you... but also there you'd have to put anything you want to dry *beside* it; the advantage is that no residual water is going to dribble into it! ;-) -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 22 01:15:29 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 02:15:29 -0400 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <20070621224608.06E82BA4478@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> <20070621224608.06E82BA4478@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <00FAE35B-1496-4E39-B437-FE97682E665B@neurotica.com> On Jun 21, 2007, at 6:46 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> The wisdom of using this stuff was being discussed on another mailing >> list, so I thought I'd see what people knew about it. I suspect it is >> similar to this: >> >> http://www.stabilant.com/techt20h.htm >> >> There seems to be almost nothing on the web about what the Caig stuff >> actually is. Materials safety data sheet lists ingredients as >> 'trade secret' >> >> Reasonable discussion of the Stabilant stuff in patent #4696832 > > For a lot of purposes I like Caig DeoxIT. It's definitely better > than the old "tuner cleaners" in terms of being more than a short-term > fix. There's a long catalog of Caig products and I don't think there > are as many actual applications as they have product variants :-). DeoxIT comes highly recommended in the metrology world as well. I've not had any luck finding it...where do you get yours, if you don't mind my asking? Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 22 02:02:59 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 01:02:59 -0600 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <00FAE35B-1496-4E39-B437-FE97682E665B@neurotica.com> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> <20070621224608.06E82BA4478@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <00FAE35B-1496-4E39-B437-FE97682E665B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <467B7423.4060902@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > DeoxIT comes highly recommended in the metrology world as well. I've > not had any luck finding it...where do you get yours, if you don't mind > my asking? > > Thanks, > -Dave Try here since you are in the US. http://www.tubesandmore.com/ > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > > . > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 22 02:46:13 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 03:46:13 -0400 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <467B7423.4060902@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> <20070621224608.06E82BA4478@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <00FAE35B-1496-4E39-B437-FE97682E665B@neurotica.com> <467B7423.4060902@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1C5FCD2E-671D-4E69-BAC1-3018576FCEB1@neurotica.com> On Jun 22, 2007, at 3:02 AM, woodelf wrote: >> DeoxIT comes highly recommended in the metrology world as well. >> I've not had any luck finding it...where do you get yours, if you >> don't mind my asking? > > Try here since you are in the US. > http://www.tubesandmore.com/ Ah-HA! Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From elf at ucsd.edu Fri Jun 22 04:07:44 2007 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 02:07:44 -0700 Subject: 2 pieces of Classic gear available in San Diego, California In-Reply-To: <200706210737.l5L7bv4k078844@smtp.ucsd.edu> References: <200706210737.l5L7bv4k078844@smtp.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <200706220908.l5M980Hl059909@smtp.ucsd.edu> Gear has been claimed. Thanx, --ef From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 22 04:20:58 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 05:20:58 -0400 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <00FAE35B-1496-4E39-B437-FE97682E665B@neurotica.com> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> <20070621224608.06E82BA4478@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <00FAE35B-1496-4E39-B437-FE97682E665B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070622092059.77A54BA445A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 21, 2007, at 6:46 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > For a lot of purposes I like Caig DeoxIT. It's definitely better > > than the old "tuner cleaners" in terms of being more than a short-term > > fix. There's a long catalog of Caig products and I don't think there > > are as many actual applications as they have product variants :-). > > DeoxIT comes highly recommended in the metrology world as well. > I've not had any luck finding it...where do you get yours, if you > don't mind my asking? My last batch I got from Antique Electronic Supply, on the web at http://www.tubesandmore.com/ The past few years I've been a good enough customer of theirs that they sent me some chocolate vacuum tubes at Christmas time :-). Tim. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jun 22 06:35:11 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 07:35:11 -0400 Subject: list of computer architects Message-ID: <200706221135.l5MBZBdh020346@mwave.heeltoe.com> I found this on accident. Thought others here might enjoy it: http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/architects.html It's not complete, but it's interesting. -brad From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 22 09:57:56 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 07:57:56 -0700 Subject: Digital Systems Drive for IMSAI In-Reply-To: <004201c7b1f0$8e741c70$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: Hi is ebay buyer jrm_2 part of this group? If he is, contact me. I have information on how to get the system working with the Digital Systems drive setup. For others on this list, this is a drive with controller that does DMA rather than regular I/O for disk. It can boot with no system ROM, meaning that the entire memory space can be RAM. I can help with creating a boot sector. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. It?s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 10:00:25 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:00:25 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> I never cease to be amazed by the level and depth of knowledge of obscure machines on this list. Knowledgeable discussions of machines I've never even heard of in 20y in the business and a good while longer as a hobbyist. So I thought I'd ask a question on a slightly different tack. What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* machines that folks have seen? The basic von Neumann computer is well-established, but most of them have a lot more common ground than that. Uniquely-identified disks, an OS with a command line that lets you create, rename, execute, edit and delete files on those disks. Maybe graphics. Maybe dumb terminals. Maybe a teletype. But set aside the cosmetic differences, they are, to a large degree, much of a muchness. From a PDP/11 to a VAX to MS-DOS, the actual overall CLI experience is very similar. Unix is a bit different - cryptic commands, one big virtual directory tree - but it's really more of the same underneath. The Mac was pretty different when it was new: no CLI at all, for example. Otherwise, though, it's not that remarkable. But I keep reading about Lisp machines. No good general-purpose introduction for the interested computer-literate reader who's never seen one and doesn't speak Lisp, though, but from what I've read, they sound unique. The Canon Cat had a unique UI as well, from what I've seen. What else was there? What other machines - general-purpose desktop (or desk-side or whatever) computers were there that Thought Differently? I'm not really thinking of embedded systems and the like here, but thinks you sat in front of and worked upon. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 22 10:14:51 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:14:51 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467BE76B.1020709@atarimuseum.com> Well, the Original Mac (and subsequents) did have a CLI, you just needed to know the sequence of buttons to push to get a CLI window to pop up... I remember the spring/summer of 1985 while working in the computer lab at college, they just got in a Mac 128 with a Laserwriter, nobody wanted to go near the thing, I was the only brave soul to touch the unorthodox little creature. I remember how unsettling it was to be separated from being able to directly talk with the computer and only being able to deal with things within windowed area's, it was a truly weird experience. The lab got in a Fat Mac upgrade and a Laserwriter rom upgrade later and I (being the officially unofficial caretaker of the beastie) performed the upgrade. What floored me was how tiny and how little there really was on the Mac motherboard, I couldn't believe so much power and abilities came from so little. That first year was a bit of a bare, the original Mac was so slow and having to deal with 2 400K floppy drives and the constant swapping back and forth was a bit of an annoyance, but well worth the end result. Curt Liam Proven wrote: > I never cease to be amazed by the level and depth of knowledge of > obscure machines on this list. Knowledgeable discussions of machines > I've never even heard of in 20y in the business and a good while > longer as a hobbyist. > > So I thought I'd ask a question on a slightly different tack. > > What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* machines > that folks have seen? > > The basic von Neumann computer is well-established, but most of them > have a lot more common ground than that. Uniquely-identified disks, an > OS with a command line that lets you create, rename, execute, edit and > delete files on those disks. Maybe graphics. Maybe dumb terminals. > Maybe a teletype. But set aside the cosmetic differences, they are, to > a large degree, much of a muchness. From a PDP/11 to a VAX to MS-DOS, > the actual overall CLI experience is very similar. Unix is a bit > different - cryptic commands, one big virtual directory tree - but > it's really more of the same underneath. > > The Mac was pretty different when it was new: no CLI at all, for > example. Otherwise, though, it's not that remarkable. > > But I keep reading about Lisp machines. No good general-purpose > introduction for the interested computer-literate reader who's never > seen one and doesn't speak Lisp, though, but from what I've read, they > sound unique. > > The Canon Cat had a unique UI as well, from what I've seen. > > What else was there? What other machines - general-purpose desktop (or > desk-side or whatever) computers were there that Thought Differently? > I'm not really thinking of embedded systems and the like here, but > thinks you sat in front of and worked upon. > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 10:18:53 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:18:53 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467BE85D.1060205@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > I never cease to be amazed by the level and depth of knowledge of > obscure machines on this list. Knowledgeable discussions of machines > I've never even heard of in 20y in the business and a good while > longer as a hobbyist. > > So I thought I'd ask a question on a slightly different tack. > > What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* machines > that folks have seen? > > The basic von Neumann computer is well-established, but most of them > have a lot more common ground than that. Uniquely-identified disks, an > OS with a command line that lets you create, rename, execute, edit and > delete files on those disks. Maybe graphics. Maybe dumb terminals. > Maybe a teletype. But set aside the cosmetic differences, they are, to > a large degree, much of a muchness. From a PDP/11 to a VAX to MS-DOS, > the actual overall CLI experience is very similar. Unix is a bit > different - cryptic commands, one big virtual directory tree - but > it's really more of the same underneath. > > The Mac was pretty different when it was new: no CLI at all, for > example. Otherwise, though, it's not that remarkable. > > But I keep reading about Lisp machines. No good general-purpose > introduction for the interested computer-literate reader who's never > seen one and doesn't speak Lisp, though, but from what I've read, they > sound unique. > > The Canon Cat had a unique UI as well, from what I've seen. > > What else was there? What other machines - general-purpose desktop (or > desk-side or whatever) computers were there that Thought Differently? > I'm not really thinking of embedded systems and the like here, but > thinks you sat in front of and worked upon. How about the Timex TM100M? It never got past the prototype-stage, but it executes BASIC in hardware. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 22 10:36:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 09:36:07 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:14:51 -0400. <467BE76B.1020709@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <467BE76B.1020709 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > Well, the Original Mac (and subsequents) did have a CLI, you just needed > to know the sequence of buttons to push to get a CLI window to pop up... Are you *sure* the original Mac had a CLI? This is the first I've heard of this and it was very much discussed at the time the Mac was introduced. Jobs was totally against a CLI AFAIK. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 10:37:06 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:37:06 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BE76B.1020709@atarimuseum.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BE76B.1020709@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706220837r49ec0ffblbd378dbc9d640e52@mail.gmail.com> On 22/06/07, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Well, the Original Mac (and subsequents) did have a CLI, you just needed > to know the sequence of buttons to push to get a CLI window to pop up... Eh? Got any pointers for info on this - it's news to me? I know there was a monitor built in - I think every MC68k Mac had that; not sure about later ones. It's not really a CLI and it's not an interface to the OS, though. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 10:37:44 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:37:44 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BE85D.1060205@gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BE85D.1060205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706220837k3fb89a35x4cfb1fd79cb2cc3d@mail.gmail.com> On 22/06/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* machines > > that folks have seen? > How about the Timex TM100M? It never got past the prototype-stage, but > it executes BASIC in hardware. Sounds interesting, but Google draws a complete blank. Tell me more...? -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 22 10:53:11 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:53:11 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070622104849.06b97cb0@mail> At 10:36 AM 6/22/2007, Richard wrote: >Are you *sure* the original Mac had a CLI? >This is the first I've heard of this and it was very much discussed at >the time the Mac was introduced. Jobs was totally against a CLI AFAIK. He's referring to the NMI debugger window, which isn't a CLI in the usual sense of the word. There's also MacsBug, which predated the Mac as a Motorola product: http://db.tidbits.com/article/05118 Smart Mac users knew enough to enter 'g' to attempt to keep going. - John From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 10:57:58 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:57:58 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <467BE76B.1020709@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706220857m5fb95504t5d3ff970c0083b93@mail.gmail.com> On 22/06/07, Richard wrote: > > In article <467BE76B.1020709 at atarimuseum.com>, > "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > > > Well, the Original Mac (and subsequents) did have a CLI, you just needed > > to know the sequence of buttons to push to get a CLI window to pop up... > > Are you *sure* the original Mac had a CLI? > > This is the first I've heard of this and it was very much discussed at > the time the Mac was introduced. Jobs was totally against a CLI AFAIK. Exactly! Closest thing I can think of is MACSbug, the monitor window that pops up when you press the Programmers' Button: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacsBug -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 22 11:00:57 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:00:57 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <467BF239.5000900@atarimuseum.com> Well, I'm mis-stating that is was a full CLI window, I meant to say more correctly it had the Debug/Monitor window - still a text based way of communicating and commanding the Mac outside of point& click. Sorry about the confusion. Curt Richard wrote: > In article <467BE76B.1020709 at atarimuseum.com>, > "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > > >> Well, the Original Mac (and subsequents) did have a CLI, you just needed >> to know the sequence of buttons to push to get a CLI window to pop up... >> > > Are you *sure* the original Mac had a CLI? > > This is the first I've heard of this and it was very much discussed at > the time the Mac was introduced. Jobs was totally against a CLI AFAIK. > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 22 11:01:37 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:01:37 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220837r49ec0ffblbd378dbc9d640e52@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BE76B.1020709@atarimuseum.com> <575131af0706220837r49ec0ffblbd378dbc9d640e52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467BF261.7020405@atarimuseum.com> Right... my mistake, I should explained more then just saying it was a plain old CLI window.... Liam Proven wrote: > On 22/06/07, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Well, the Original Mac (and subsequents) did have a CLI, you just needed >> to know the sequence of buttons to push to get a CLI window to pop up... > > Eh? Got any pointers for info on this - it's news to me? I know there > was a monitor built in - I think every MC68k Mac had that; not sure > about later ones. It's not really a CLI and it's not an interface to > the OS, though. > From bfoley at compsoc.nuigalway.ie Fri Jun 22 11:13:08 2007 From: bfoley at compsoc.nuigalway.ie (Brian Foley) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:13:08 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BE76B.1020709@atarimuseum.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BE76B.1020709@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20070622161308.GC24974@compsoc.nuigalway.ie> On Fri, Jun 22, 2007 at 11:14:51AM -0400, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Well, the Original Mac (and subsequents) did have a CLI, you just needed > to know the sequence of buttons to push to get a CLI window to pop up... To my knowledge, there was never any built-in CLI for Mac OS prior to Mac OS X. I suspect you're talking about either MacsBug, Apple's system debugger for Classic Mac OS, or MicroBug, an extremely minimal debugger present in the ROMs of all Classic Macs since the Mac Plus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacsBug http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1136.html Cheers, Brian. From cc at corti-net.de Fri Jun 22 11:15:59 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:15:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BE85D.1060205@gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BE85D.1060205@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How about the Timex TM100M? It never got past the prototype-stage, but it > executes BASIC in hardware. Well, so does the Wang 2200. Christian From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Fri Jun 22 11:31:12 2007 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:31:12 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <424AE522-EB78-4C0A-BC0E-4C9D8F969EDC@retrobbs.org> What I want to know is, what did they write the original mac os on. And is that what they wrote the subsequent versions on? A copy of the last version? Wholly Bootstraps Macman! On 22 Jun 2007, at 16:36, Richard wrote: > > In article <467BE76B.1020709 at atarimuseum.com>, > "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > >> Well, the Original Mac (and subsequents) did have a CLI, you just >> needed >> to know the sequence of buttons to push to get a CLI window to pop >> up... > > Are you *sure* the original Mac had a CLI? > > This is the first I've heard of this and it was very much discussed at > the time the Mac was introduced. Jobs was totally against a CLI > AFAIK. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - Dwight D. Eisenhower From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 11:47:53 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:47:53 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <424AE522-EB78-4C0A-BC0E-4C9D8F969EDC@retrobbs.org> References: <424AE522-EB78-4C0A-BC0E-4C9D8F969EDC@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <575131af0706220947o18d29aa4oeae7cd6a5c92e569@mail.gmail.com> On 22/06/07, Mark Firestone wrote: > What I want to know is, what did they write the original mac os on. The Lisa, in large parts, and prototype hardware. What the Mac was going to be underwent a lot of changes in the early days, so by the time that the OS was taking shape, they already had running prototypes. Go read http://folklore.org/index.py - it's a great site with some wonderful stories. Not in any terribly coherent order, but that's the only snag. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 22 11:51:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 09:51:55 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jun 2007 at 16:00, Liam Proven wrote: > What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* machines > that folks have seen? > > The basic von Neumann computer is well-established, but most of them > have a lot more common ground than that. NEC marketed a dataflow MPU back in the 80's. I believe it was targeted at the DSP market. To my knowledge, it's the only commercial dataflow design. A more conventional, but still strange micro design was the SMS/Signetics 8X300/305 microcontroller. Bipolar, 16-bit and remarkably brain-dead. Western Digital used it on its early hard disk controllers. Many of the 1950's systems were what we'd consider to be strange. Consider, for example, the Univac SS80. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 22 11:51:42 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:51:42 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BF239.5000900@atarimuseum.com> References: <467BF239.5000900@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070622114810.06a4eae0@mail> At 11:00 AM 6/22/2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Well, I'm mis-stating that is was a full CLI window, I meant to say more correctly it had the Debug/Monitor window - still a text based way of communicating and commanding the Mac outside of point& click. Sorry about the confusion. I do remember a true command-line environment for C program development on the Mac. I believe Apple's came with one. There were probably others, maybe Manx. "Programmer's Workbench" comes to mind, but I'm not sure if that's it. It was weird, to be sure. It was one place that revealed that under the hood, the Mac filesystem functions could use ':' as the path separator. - John From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 22 12:07:55 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:07:55 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070622114810.06a4eae0@mail> References: <467BF239.5000900@atarimuseum.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070622114810.06a4eae0@mail> Message-ID: <467C01EB.1070304@atarimuseum.com> I need to be more careful when quoting from my rusted out memory of something from 20 years ago ;-) You know how it goes... Curt John Foust wrote: > At 11:00 AM 6/22/2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Well, I'm mis-stating that is was a full CLI window, I meant to say more correctly it had the Debug/Monitor window - still a text based way of communicating and commanding the Mac outside of point& click. Sorry about the confusion. >> > > I do remember a true command-line environment for C program development > on the Mac. I believe Apple's came with one. There were probably others, > maybe Manx. "Programmer's Workbench" comes to mind, but I'm not sure if > that's it. It was weird, to be sure. It was one place that revealed > that under the hood, the Mac filesystem functions could use ':' as > the path separator. > > - John > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 12:10:18 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:10:18 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <467C027A.5060006@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Many of the 1950's systems were what we'd consider to be strange. > Consider, for example, the Univac SS80. Some day, I'd love to a build a machine that executes befunge in hardware. I don't know whether or not it's been done before. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 12:16:26 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:16:26 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > NEC marketed a dataflow MPU back in the 80's. I believe it was > targeted at the DSP market. To my knowledge, it's the only > commercial dataflow design. Multiflow Trace series, as well. The good ol' AS/400s (with yesterday's S/38 and today's iSeries) are probably the weirdest machines in the last twenty years that actually made a mark in history. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 22 12:17:36 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:17:36 -0400 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <20070622092059.77A54BA445A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> <20070621224608.06E82BA4478@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <00FAE35B-1496-4E39-B437-FE97682E665B@neurotica.com> <20070622092059.77A54BA445A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <05DBB5D3-6C01-49CA-88D9-16497CB4E1EC@neurotica.com> On Jun 22, 2007, at 5:20 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> For a lot of purposes I like Caig DeoxIT. It's definitely better >>> than the old "tuner cleaners" in terms of being more than a short- >>> term >>> fix. There's a long catalog of Caig products and I don't think there >>> are as many actual applications as they have product variants :-). >> >> DeoxIT comes highly recommended in the metrology world as well. >> I've not had any luck finding it...where do you get yours, if you >> don't mind my asking? > > My last batch I got from Antique Electronic Supply, on the web at > http://www.tubesandmore.com/ Excellent. I've found it on their website and will be placing an order shortly. Thanks! > The past few years I've been a good enough customer of theirs that > they sent me some chocolate vacuum tubes at Christmas time :-). :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Jun 22 12:32:02 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:32:02 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <467C0792.9050704@mainecoon.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chuck Guzis wrote: > A more conventional, but still strange micro design was the > SMS/Signetics 8X300/305 microcontroller. Bipolar, 16-bit and > remarkably brain-dead. Western Digital used it on its early hard > disk controllers. BTI used one as the heart of the SCP in the BTI8000. You could fry an egg on the thing, and yes, it was truly brain-dead. Cheers, Chris. - -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGfAeOVeEgoxCNq5cRAhTcAJ9wLfgIINJrKCcOEki9TqOjI+JcCgCgs/nO s0EE1SqDP9TtQXiCugsOfpU= =DvQH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 22 12:30:56 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C027A.5060006@gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C027A.5060006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706221734.NAA08353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Many of the 1950's systems were what we'd consider to be strange. > Some day, I'd love to a build a machine that executes befunge in > hardware. I don't know whether or not it's been done before. I don't either, but I too would like it. If you resize the playfield to, say, 64x64 (instead of 80x24), I might even have the wherewithal (expertise and parts) to build one. der Mouse From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 12:39:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:39:51 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> NEC marketed a dataflow MPU back in the 80's. I believe it was >> targeted at the DSP market. To my knowledge, it's the only >> commercial dataflow design. > > Multiflow Trace series, as well. > > The good ol' AS/400s (with yesterday's S/38 and today's iSeries) are > probably the weirdest machines in the last twenty years that actually > made a mark in history. Their software is pretty unusual, but there's nothing that weird about the hardware, is there? Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 22 12:46:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:46:24 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C027A.5060006@gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com>, <467C027A.5060006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <467BA880.16292.71E839F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jun 2007 at 13:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Some day, I'd love to a build a machine that executes befunge in > hardware. I don't know whether or not it's been done before. If you did that, you'd just be encouraging the miscreants. ;-) From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jun 22 12:55:09 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:55:09 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BE85D.1060205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <467C0CFD.5070409@pacbell.net> Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> How about the Timex TM100M? It never got past the prototype-stage, >> but it executes BASIC in hardware. > > Well, so does the Wang 2200. > > Christian > Not really -- the basic interpreter is written in microcode, but I wouldn't call that execution in hardware. Also, I'd argue that the microcode is really nearly an ISA -- there are no pipeline hazards, the uword is very narrow (20b in the 2200A/B/C/S/T, 23b in the VP/MVP). The only thing that makes it ucode like is that some instruction formats have control fields to manipulate independent behaviors, and that jumps are within ucode page. Long jumps take a bit of extra work. The power of the first generation 2200 (A/B/C/S/T) was roughly the same as a 4 MHz Z80, I'd estimate. The VP umachine was effectively about 5x-8x faster, and it was a lot nicer to program too. A factor of 2.7 was due to a faster cycle time (1.6 us vs 600 ns per uinst); a factor of two was due to the 1st gen being a nibble machine, while the VP could do 8b and 16b ops; the rest was a collection of other improvements. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 22 13:03:54 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:03:54 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <467C0F0A.8080901@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >> The good ol' AS/400s (with yesterday's S/38 and today's iSeries) are >> probably the weirdest machines in the last twenty years that actually >> made a mark in history. > > Their software is pretty unusual, but there's nothing that weird about > the hardware, is there? Well, the price.... Doc From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 22 13:07:44 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:07:44 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <467C0FF0.7000605@bitsavers.org> > What I want to know is, what did they write the original mac os on. Lisa > And is that what they wrote the subsequent versions on? Lisa for the System until roughly the start of MPW when there was a Mac-hosted build environment. The ROM was entirely assembler and could be built on a Mac Plus with HD20 (slowly). Parts of the system converted from Pascal to C through the 80's. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 13:09:38 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:09:38 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070622114810.06a4eae0@mail> References: <467BF239.5000900@atarimuseum.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070622114810.06a4eae0@mail> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0706221109p5e00b97bi67f87e6fbd0381e0@mail.gmail.com> On 6/22/07, John Foust wrote: > I do remember a true command-line environment for C program development > on the Mac. I believe Apple's came with one. There were probably others, > maybe Manx. "Programmer's Workbench" comes to mind, but I'm not sure if > that's it. > The full name was "Macintosh Programmer's Workshop" It let you use *nix style development tools such as yacc, patch and grep, and gave you a CLI to the compilers and linkers. Also, the colon *was* the internal path seperator for the Mac, just like / in *nix and \ in MS-DOS. Most of the "Classic" macs had a piece of plastic called the "Programmer's Switch." All it did was extend two micro switches hidden inside the bottom side vents of the original all-in-one Macs, the interrupt and reset buttons. Reset did a soft reset of the machine. Interrupt sent an interrupt telling the Mac to bring up a debugger window, either the limited built-in debugger, or the MacsBug extension if it was installed. There were some fun hacks you could do modifying memory mid-stream, in a game, for example :) The "General Purpose Computers" in the Space Shuttle have a somewhat strange architecture, if I recall correctly. I'm not sure I'd count them as computers, but the Soviet Union made some sophisticated, oddball calculators, there's an online museum dedicated to them somewhere. There were a handful of Smalltalk machines built in the early 80's, cousins in weirdness to the old LISP machines, I'm sure. Most supercomputers had/have unique architectures. Check out the Connection Machine and the nCube machines. There was a project by some computer scientist in England to build a genetic computer in silicon. There was a show on TechTV called Big Thinkers that covered it. It ended up in a fiasco for some reason or another and the company was dissolved, but a working machine was built. There's a java simulator of the software online somewhere. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 22 13:13:08 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:13:08 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467C1134.6000608@jetnet.ab.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > But I keep reading about Lisp machines. No good general-purpose > introduction for the interested computer-literate reader who's never > seen one and doesn't speak Lisp, though, but from what I've read, they > sound unique. Somebody as research project built a lisp cpu on chip. It can't add but but can run a simple lisp quite well. I read about this years ago so I can't say more. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 22 02:45:34 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 08:45:34 +0100 Subject: Computer porn book.... :-) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:49:36 PDT." <5A776199-D45D-462E-B0C9-6C23F790D6F1@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <200706220745.IAA04210@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Seth said: > > I can vouch for the book, though. I bought a copy at the Computer > History Museum book signing a few weeks ago. It could have a bit > more variety and a LOT more tech details, but it's not bad as coffee- > table computer porn! The photos are quite well done. Thanks for the info, looks like a visit to Amazon is in order, someone mentioned they have it. I _do_ like my dead trees :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 22 13:01:07 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:01:07 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:00:25 BST." <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706221801.TAA06140@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Liam Proven said: > I never cease to be amazed by the level and depth of knowledge of > obscure machines on this list. Knowledgeable discussions of machines > I've never even heard of in 20y in the business and a good while > longer as a hobbyist. > > So I thought I'd ask a question on a slightly different tack. > > What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* machines > that folks have seen? > [Snip] > What else was there? What other machines - general-purpose desktop (or > desk-side or whatever) computers were there that Thought Differently? Forth machines, sometimes with Forth implemented in hardware. Source and object code in 1K blocks paged from blocks on disk, no other OS. I think Forth Inc. have some history on their site: http://www.forth.com The Rekursiv. "Everything is an object" managed by a tagged object manager in hardware. Virtual address space with objects paged in and out of single-level storage as required. Google for Harland, Gunn, Pringle & Beloff's original paper from 1986, it's online somewhere. Lisp machines of course. Smalltalk? -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Jun 22 13:20:48 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:20:48 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BE85D.1060205@gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BE85D.1060205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F59C535-6F8A-478F-B839-D2CE879F1861@colourfull.com> On Jun 22, 2007, at 11:18 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > How about the Timex TM100M? It never got past the prototype-stage, > but it executes BASIC in hardware. > > Peace... Sridhar I've tried googling and can't find it. Do you have a link about this beast? Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 13:23:22 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:23:22 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0706221123o68053c87t602032fe32e3a4b5@mail.gmail.com> On 6/22/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Their software is pretty unusual, but there's nothing that weird about > the hardware, is there? > > Peace... Sridhar > System/38 had some unique hardware features that carreied over to the original AS/400 series (they used modified S/370 chipsets I think) until they moved to the standard POWER Architecture in the mid 90's, where all the unique features were probably added-on or emulated in a hypervisor environment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System/38#Distinctions From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 22 13:28:19 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:28:19 -0600 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <20070622092059.77A54BA445A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> <20070621224608.06E82BA4478@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <00FAE35B-1496-4E39-B437-FE97682E665B@neurotica.com> <20070622092059.77A54BA445A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <467C14C3.8040306@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Shoppa wrote: > My last batch I got from Antique Electronic Supply, on the web at > http://www.tubesandmore.com/ > > The past few years I've been a good enough customer of theirs that > they sent me some chocolate vacuum tubes at Christmas time :-). So what have you been buying? I only need a order every other year. > Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 13:34:22 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:34:22 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220947o18d29aa4oeae7cd6a5c92e569@mail.gmail.com> References: <424AE522-EB78-4C0A-BC0E-4C9D8F969EDC@retrobbs.org> <575131af0706220947o18d29aa4oeae7cd6a5c92e569@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/22/07, Liam Proven wrote: > Go read http://folklore.org/index.py - it's a great site with some > wonderful stories. Not in any terribly coherent order, but that's the > only snag. Wow... thanks for that pointer. There's some interesting stories there. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 13:56:17 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:56:17 -0400 Subject: Baseline H-11 board set? Message-ID: Hi, all, I dug out my H-11 and H-27 this week, to take yet another stab at getting the H-27 drives working. The H-11 itself works fine with various DEC boards (including an RXV11 + RX01), but I'd like to get it working as an H-11, not a PDP-11 in a Heath shell. What I haven't been able to find online is a list of the boards that an H-11 typically shipped with. I know it used an LSI-11 (11/03) CPU, so there's that, plus a console SLU board, probably a Heath one (don't know the part number), the H-27 host card, and at least 16K of RAM, I'm figuring, but is there anything else? In particular, I'm thinking about bus termination... an unremarkable PDP-11/23 board set might be a KDF-11 + MSV11 + RXV11 + DLV11E + BDV11... that gives you (in order) CPU, memory, disk, console SLU, and bootstrap/terminator. What's the equivalent combo for an unremarkable H-11? -ethan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jun 22 13:58:20 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:58:20 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Liam Proven wrote: > > What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* > machines that folks have seen? Ohio Scientific OS65D... > The basic von Neumann computer is well-established, but most > of them have a lot more common ground than that. > Uniquely-identified disks, Yup... > an OS with a command line that lets you create, rename, execute, > edit and delete files on those disks. Nope, there are directory tracks that are more of a "good idea" than a real part of the OS. You can put a name and track/sector info in the "directory". The BASIC interpreter will load and store programs from/into those tracks if they fit (Oh, didn't I mention that? You define how big the file is when you "create" it. Once created, that's how big it is and how big it stays. Of course, only BASIC cares). The OS level command line is more like a monitor. You can tell it to load a track/sector into memory at an address, multiple tracks require multiple commands. Then, you can jump to that address. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.4/860 - Release Date: 6/21/2007 5:53 PM From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 22 14:03:53 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) In-Reply-To: <002601c7b43b$74c1da40$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <002601c7b43b$74c1da40$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <200706221905.PAA09271@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Heh. I have a MicroVAX-II simulator that's sort of on hold. I had >> similar issues; there are some undocumented (as far as I can tell) >> aspects of the hardware which the ROM POST code depends on. > I've scanned the 78032 manual and I'm sure it's online somewhere. > I'd be (very) surprised if the IB is not documented [...] Ah. Then "undocumented (as far as I can tell)" here really means "I haven't found the right manual yet". I'll keep your message around and go digging for the scans you refer to some time when I have the leisure. Thanks for the pointer! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jun 22 14:31:05 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:31:05 -0400 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al Kossow wrote: > The wisdom of using this stuff was being discussed on another mailing > list, so I thought I'd see what people knew about it. I suspect it is > similar to this: > > http://www.stabilant.com/techt20h.htm > > There seems to be almost nothing on the web about what the Caig stuff > actually is. Materials safety data sheet lists ingredients as > 'trade secret' > I've been using DeoxIT in combination with Nyogel 759G for several years now. Ohio Scientific systems with tin-pin "fatherboards" go from flakey, requiring board wiggling before each power up and hanging on a regular basis, to rock solid. I use it on my S-100 boxes as well. It makes board insertion and removal much easier and seems to improve stability. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.4/860 - Release Date: 6/21/2007 5:53 PM From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Jun 22 13:44:00 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:44:00 -0300 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 Message-ID: <01C7B4E4.43483FA0@mandr71> ---------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:57:57 -0700 From: Al Kossow Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 The wisdom of using this stuff was being discussed on another mailing list, so I thought I'd see what people knew about it. I suspect it is similar to this: http://www.stabilant.com/techt20h.htm There seems to be almost nothing on the web about what the Caig stuff actually is. Materials safety data sheet lists ingredients as 'trade secret' Reasonable discussion of the Stabilant stuff in patent #4696832 --------------Reply: I've used Stabilant22 for years to coat edge connectors on boards in systems exposed to heavily contaminated industrial environments. Works well; expensive, but a little goes a long way. mike From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 22 15:30:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:30:01 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C0792.9050704@mainecoon.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com>, <467C0792.9050704@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <467BCED9.19505.727E0566@cclist.sydex.com> In the area of "strange architecture", I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Intel iAPX-432. For its time, very unusual. The GI CP-1600 16-bit CPU had an architecture very similar to the PDP- 11, but used a 10-bit instruction word. I think GI even marketed 10 bit ROMs. These were used in various incarnations as the CPU in many Activision consoles. The I2L version of the TI 9900 (SBP 9989?). Not in the architecture or the instruction set, but the logic family--Silicon Bipolar Integrated Injection Logic. Like the Fairchild 9440 "micro-Nova sort- of CPU", virtually unobtainium if you weren't in military aerospace. Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Jun 22 15:33:22 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:33:22 -0700 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <467C14C3.8040306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> <20070621224608.06E82BA4478@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <00FAE35B-1496-4E39-B437-FE97682E665B@neurotica.com> <20070622092059.77A54BA445A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <467C14C3.8040306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <467C3212.9050108@mindspring.com> woodelf wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> My last batch I got from Antique Electronic Supply, on the web at >> http://www.tubesandmore.com/ >> >> The past few years I've been a good enough customer of theirs that >> they sent me some chocolate vacuum tubes at Christmas time :-). > > So what have you been buying? I only need a order every other year. > >> Tim. > > You can also get all the Caig products directly from their web store at: http://store.caig.com/ From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jun 22 15:43:31 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:43:31 -0400 Subject: Tube Logic - homebrew (was Re: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22) Message-ID: <467BFC330200003700008929@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Woodelf wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: >> My last batch I got from Antique Electronic Supply, on the web at >> http://www.tubesandmore.com/ >> >> The past few years I've been a good enough customer of theirs that >> they sent me some chocolate vacuum tubes at Christmas time :-). > So what have you been buying? I only need a order every other year. Tubes, transformers, chokes. Some ham and audio stuff, but one of my latest projects does digital logic with several dozen 6SN7's. No, it's not actually a "computer" in that it's not programmable but my next thoughts are turning to that arena. The first programmable stuff I might do would end up being plugboard programming, most likely. I've recently been playing with heptodes as logic gates (and gotten many 7036's with IBM labels from AES. They're dirt cheap, and if I do it right each will replace 1 to 3 6SN7's!) Tim. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jun 22 15:49:40 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:49:40 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> My taste for the last several years is to play around with 1: dedicated industrial logic (e.g. elevator and machine controllers) 2: Analog computers 3: Electromechanical stuff, especially if somewhat programmable Now, none of the above are things with video screens and keyboards, and in most cases they don't even have readily recognized "instruction sets", but they all do computing in a pre-Von-Neumann sense. I heavily, heavily try to stay away from stuff with keyboards and video screens and, even worse, anything with an "operating system" of any sort! I don't want to have anything to do with installing software. I want to solder tube sockets, read meters, turn knobs, and watch scope traces. Tim. From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Fri Jun 22 15:52:06 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:52:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM Series/1 Message-ID: Hey all; I have an IBM Series/1 that I picked up a few years ago. I've just pulled manuals from BitSavers (Whee! Way to go!) and clearly have an awful, awful lot of reading to do. Unfortunately my S/1 was pillaged by some cretin before I picked it up - the logic section appears to be complete, although some wires have been cut (Hopefully they were leading to external devices). Unfortunately everything behind the operators panel is missing - I'm not even sure what went there, I'm guessing the units power supply. Is there anyone out there on the list that has one of these that can help me get an idea what I'm missing and, in the best case, maybe even has a little software for the unit? Thanks all; JP (knee deep in PDFs) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 22 15:52:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:52:57 -0700 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <467C3212.9050108@mindspring.com> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org>, <467C14C3.8040306@jetnet.ab.ca>, <467C3212.9050108@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <467BD439.31574.729305EC@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jun 2007 at 13:33, Don North wrote: > You can also get all the Caig products directly from their web store at: > > http://store.caig.com/ Does any of this stuff work on carbon potentiometers (AKA Volume Control Cleaner)? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 22 17:00:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:00:34 -0600 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <467BD439.31574.729305EC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org>, <467C14C3.8040306@jetnet.ab.ca>, <467C3212.9050108@mindspring.com> <467BD439.31574.729305EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <467C4682.2040107@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Jun 2007 at 13:33, Don North wrote: > > >> You can also get all the Caig products directly from their web store at: >> >> http://store.caig.com/ > > Does any of this stuff work on carbon potentiometers (AKA Volume > Control Cleaner)? Carbon pots are cheap -- replace them if you can instead is my thought. > Cheers, > Chuck > > > . > From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 22 17:25:45 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:25:45 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com>, <467C0792.9050704@mainecoon.com> <467BCED9.19505.727E0566@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <005201c7b51c$480928a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > The GI CP-1600 16-bit CPU had an architecture very similar >to the PDP-11, but used a 10-bit instruction word. I think >GI even marketed 10 bit ROMs. These were used in various >incarnations as the CPU in many Activision consoles. They were used in the various "Intellivision" consoles.... That's a machine I'd like to have a play around with (as in programming), but I'm having too much fun with the Vectrex right now. ;-) TTFN - Pete. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 22 17:39:38 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <873207.79661.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have an IBM Series/1 system also. I have many manuals and books for it that I need to get to bitsavers. Also, somewhere I have some software on 8" floppies. Unfortunately, I don't have a working boot device for mine. Some photos are on my web site at www.dvq.com under "old mainframes and minicomputers". Behind the operators panel on my unit is a large power supply. There are 10 or so boards in the main unit, then cables which run down to an expansion chassis. Possibly, those are the cables that have been cut on yours. The main chassis holds the processor, memory, and boot device attachment card, the expansion chassis has extra I/O cards, at least in my system. There were quite a few different processor and system configurations so my info may not match yours. Let me know if I can help in any way. You can contact me off-line if you want. Bob JP Hindin wrote: Hey all; I have an IBM Series/1 that I picked up a few years ago. I've just pulled manuals from BitSavers (Whee! Way to go!) and clearly have an awful, awful lot of reading to do. Unfortunately my S/1 was pillaged by some cretin before I picked it up - the logic section appears to be complete, although some wires have been cut (Hopefully they were leading to external devices). Unfortunately everything behind the operators panel is missing - I'm not even sure what went there, I'm guessing the units power supply. Is there anyone out there on the list that has one of these that can help me get an idea what I'm missing and, in the best case, maybe even has a little software for the unit? Thanks all; JP (knee deep in PDFs) From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 22 17:42:16 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:42:16 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org> Liam Proven wrote: > What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* machines > that folks have seen? One of the most "common" oddball machines you can actually still pick up in a lot of places is the PCjr. I've always been partial to "luggables" that include more than they should, like the Panasonic Sr. Partner which has a printer behind the CRT. A friend told me he used to lug that thing onto planes and through airport terminals and lost weight doing it. The printer used a roll of fax paper, so all of your printouts looked like faxes. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 22 17:44:44 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:44:44 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BE76B.1020709@atarimuseum.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BE76B.1020709@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <467C50DC.90101@oldskool.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > What floored me was how tiny and how little there really > was on the Mac motherboard, I couldn't believe so much power and > abilities came from so little. The original Mac doesn't get enough "hacker" credit. A ton of tricks went into the software that drove that thing. Pretty much everything was done in software, even the sound generation (which is why you get a variable answer every time you try to look up how many simultaneous voices the machine could produce -- it was a single-voice DAC, but various programs did varying levels of music synthesis or digital channels through mixing). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Jun 22 17:45:03 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:45:03 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C1134.6000608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C1134.6000608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <467C50EF.90907@e-bbes.com> woodelf wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >> But I keep reading about Lisp machines. No good general-purpose >> introduction for the interested computer-literate reader who's never >> seen one and doesn't speak Lisp, though, but from what I've read, they >> sound unique. > Somebody as research project built a lisp cpu on chip. It can't add but > but can run a simple lisp quite well. I read about this years ago > so I can't say more. This by any chance ? ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-514.pdf From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 22 17:48:06 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706221801.TAA06140@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200706221801.TAA06140@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20070622154609.X32164@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Stan Barr wrote: > Smalltalk? S.O.A.R. (Smalltalk On A Risc) Howcome we never notice just how weird the 5150 is? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 22 17:48:17 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:48:17 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BCED9.19505.727E0566@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com>, <467C0792.9050704@mainecoon.com> <467BCED9.19505.727E0566@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <467C51B1.9060303@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The GI CP-1600 16-bit CPU had an architecture very similar to the PDP- > 11, but used a 10-bit instruction word. I think GI even marketed 10 > bit ROMs. These were used in various incarnations as the CPU in many > Activision consoles. I think you meant to write "Mattel Intellivision". (Unless Activision got into the hardware business that I'm not aware of) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 22 17:59:37 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:59:37 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070622154609.X32164@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706221801.TAA06140@citadel.metropolis.local> <20070622154609.X32164@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jun 22, 2007, at 6:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Smalltalk? > > S.O.A.R. > (Smalltalk On A Risc) Mmmmmmmmm. URL? > Howcome we never notice just how weird the 5150 is? I notice it every damn day. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 18:04:19 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 00:04:19 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com> On 22/06/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* machines > > that folks have seen? > > One of the most "common" oddball machines you can actually still pick up > in a lot of places is the PCjr. > > I've always been partial to "luggables" that include more than they > should, like the Panasonic Sr. Partner which has a printer behind the > CRT. A friend told me he used to lug that thing onto planes and through > airport terminals and lost weight doing it. The printer used a roll of > fax paper, so all of your printouts looked like faxes. I don't think that a PC in an unusual form factor counts as genuinely weird, different or interesting! -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 18:05:55 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 00:05:55 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706221605r41594de3s87549b42a202121f@mail.gmail.com> On 22/06/07, Tim Shoppa wrote: > My taste for the last several years is to play around with > > 1: dedicated industrial logic (e.g. elevator and machine controllers) > > 2: Analog computers > > 3: Electromechanical stuff, especially if somewhat programmable > > Now, none of the above are things with video screens and > keyboards, and in most cases they don't even have readily > recognized "instruction sets", but they all do computing in a > pre-Von-Neumann sense. Well, true, but they're not really general-purpose computers, as I specified. I know there's all sorts of weirdness once you leave the world of the desktop (or server), but it's not anything I can really relate to or get interested in myself. > I heavily, heavily try to stay away from stuff with keyboards > and video screens and, even worse, anything with an > "operating system" of any sort! I don't want to have anything > to do with installing software. Uhuh? So how did you post that message then? Whistle modem tones down a phone line? :?) -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 18:07:37 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 00:07:37 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C50DC.90101@oldskool.org> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BE76B.1020709@atarimuseum.com> <467C50DC.90101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <575131af0706221607xdd95f73w560b77aaefb7513b@mail.gmail.com> On 22/06/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > What floored me was how tiny and how little there really > > was on the Mac motherboard, I couldn't believe so much power and > > abilities came from so little. > > The original Mac doesn't get enough "hacker" credit. A ton of tricks > went into the software that drove that thing. Pretty much everything > was done in software, even the sound generation (which is why you get a > variable answer every time you try to look up how many simultaneous > voices the machine could produce -- it was a single-voice DAC, but > various programs did varying levels of music synthesis or digital > channels through mixing). Absolutely. The original Mac was an amazing bit of design and had a number of elements that neither Windows nor Mac OS X manage to capture. Some of the original design team were genuine computer genii. Folklore.org has a lot on this topic. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Jun 22 18:10:56 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070622154609.X32164@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706221801.TAA06140@citadel.metropolis.local> <20070622154609.X32164@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:48:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: What are the really unusual or weird computers? > > On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Stan Barr wrote: >> Smalltalk? > > S.O.A.R. > (Smalltalk On A Risc) S.P.U.R (Symbolic Processing Using RISCs) > > > > Howcome we never notice just how weird the 5150 is? > Too depressing to think about? > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Peter Wallace From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 22 18:20:00 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <200706221801.TAA06140@citadel.metropolis.local> <20070622154609.X32164@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070622161657.Q32164@shell.lmi.net> > >> Smalltalk? > > S.O.A.R. > > (Smalltalk On A Risc) On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > Mmmmmmmmm. URL? http://www.amazon.com/Evaluation-Performance-Smalltalk-Distinguished-Dissertation/dp/026221010X http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=36192 Ungar & Patterson, UCBerkeley I got a chance to play with a pre-release Lisa there From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 22 18:22:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:22:49 -0700 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <467C4682.2040107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org>, <467BD439.31574.729305EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <467C4682.2040107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <467BF759.18751.731C3AA5@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jun 2007 at 16:00, woodelf wrote: > Carbon pots are cheap -- replace them if you can instead is my thought. Yeah, that last part--getting replacements with the right taps, tapers and ganging can be a real problem. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 22 18:24:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:24:42 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C51B1.9060303@oldskool.org> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467BCED9.19505.727E0566@cclist.sydex.com>, <467C51B1.9060303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <467BF7CA.29540.731DF1F3@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jun 2007 at 17:48, Jim Leonard wrote: > I think you meant to write "Mattel Intellivision". (Unless Activision > got into the hardware business that I'm not aware of) Yeah, *something*-vision. I don't pay much attention to the games market. Did GI ever market their own game console? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 22 18:37:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:37:19 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467BFABF.1923.73298102@cclist.sydex.com> How many MPUs had no provision for interrupts? The Rockwell PPS-8 is one that comes to mind. What's surprising is that it was used in the Diablo dot-matrix printer--something you'd think that was a very good candidate for an interrupt-driven architecture. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 22 18:58:47 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:58:47 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C50EF.90907@e-bbes.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C1134.6000608@jetnet.ab.ca> <467C50EF.90907@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <467C6237.8060704@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > This by any chance ? > ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-514.pdf No. Now if I knew Lisp ... :) Looking at the references " The CONS microprocessor " is what I believe I read. Still a nice chip. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 22 19:05:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:05:32 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BFABF.1923.73298102@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BFABF.1923.73298102@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <467C63CC.6080504@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > How many MPUs had no provision for interrupts? The Rockwell PPS-8 is > one that comes to mind. What's surprising is that it was used in the > Diablo dot-matrix printer--something you'd think that was a very good > candidate for an interrupt-driven architecture. I don't think Motorola's 1 bit processer had that feature. > Cheers, > Chuck > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 22 18:55:33 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 00:55:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Jun 22, 7 04:00:25 pm Message-ID: > What else was there? What other machines - general-purpose desktop (or > desk-side or whatever) computers were there that Thought Differently? > I'm not really thinking of embedded systems and the like here, but > thinks you sat in front of and worked upon. How about , the 3 Rivers PERQ. OK, it _could_ be a unix box (but with a GUI before such things were at all common). It also ran an OS called POS written in Pascal. The user interface is somewhat similar to, say, RT11, though. What makes the PERQ odd is the processor. Yes, it's von Neumann. It has 256 general-pupose registers, with (in later versions) an index register to address the registers (!). The microcode which determines the instruction set is not stored in ROM, but in RAM, and is loaded from disk when the machine boots. Difference OSes had different microcode, and you (the user) were expected to write your own microcode, at least under POS. Oh, and the CPU registers/ALU are 20 bits wide (24 bits in the T4), which is unusual. Another odd thing for the time is that there was no text mode on the display. Only a bitmapped graphics mode. There was a graphics accelerator on the CPU board (the so-called 'rasterop machine') to move bitmaps around, and which caued this machine to have a text display rate much faster than the typical serial terminals of the time. That was, I am told, a design spec They're not that rare (in that several people here have them, I think), but they're interesting. I should perhapc qualifiy that by saying the T4 (24 bit model) _is_ seriously rare. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 22 19:09:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 01:09:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070622154609.X32164@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 22, 7 03:48:06 pm Message-ID: > Howcome we never notice just how weird the 5150 is? Because there's a difference between 'weird' and 'plain badly designed' :-) -tony From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 19:14:08 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 01:14:08 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706221714w4a47de60v45a9b966a10c15b6@mail.gmail.com> On 23/06/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > What else was there? What other machines - general-purpose desktop (or > > desk-side or whatever) computers were there that Thought Differently? > > I'm not really thinking of embedded systems and the like here, but > > thinks you sat in front of and worked upon. > > How about , the 3 Rivers PERQ. [...] Fascinating - thanks for that, Tony! I've read about PERQs but I've never seen one; I don't believe I know anyone who has one. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 22 20:06:34 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:06:34 -0700 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <467BD439.31574.729305EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 22 Jun 2007 at 13:33, Don North wrote: > > > > You can also get all the Caig products directly from their web store at: > > > > http://store.caig.com/ > >Does any of this stuff work on carbon potentiometers (AKA Volume >Control Cleaner)? > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi Chuck DC#4 works on volume pots, so long as the carbon hasn't been completely removed. I've used it for that as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Picture this ? share your photos and you could win big! http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Fri Jun 22 20:49:42 2007 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:49:42 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Baseline H-11 board set? Message-ID: <1182563382.467c7c36bf7f7@www.jblaser.org> Ethan Dicks said: > What I haven't been able to find online is a list of the boards that > an H-11 typically shipped with. I know it used an LSI-11 (11/03) CPU, > so there's that, plus a console SLU board, probably a Heath one (don't > know the part number), the H-27 host card, and at least 16K of RAM, > I'm figuring, but is there anything else? In particular, I'm thinking > about bus termination... an unremarkable PDP-11/23 board set might be > a KDF-11 + MSV11 + RXV11 + DLV11E + BDV11... that gives you (in order) > CPU, memory, disk, console SLU, and bootstrap/terminator. What's the > equivalent combo for an unremarkable H-11? I'm certainly no expert on Heath gear, or DEC gear for that matter, but I've been lucky enough to snag a couple of H11s in the last year. Here's what are in my two systems: Sytstem 1: - M7270 : KD11-HA : LSI 11/2 CPU - WHA-11-16 : 16KB memory - H-11-5 : Serial I/O - H27 : Floppy I/O - M8028 : DLV11F : Async SLU - WHA-11-16 : 16KB memroy System 2: - M7270 : KD11-HA : LSI 11/2 CPU - MSC 4601 : 16KB memory - H-11-5 : Serial I/O - H27 : Floppy I/O - H-11-5 : Serial I/O - H-11-5 : Serial I/O I haven't been able to test these out yet, though I have gotten as far as reforming the PS capacitors and running the PSs thoroughly. I have some original documentation for the H-11-5 serial boards, and comparing that with the DEC handbook I discovered that the configuration jumpers, etc. are essentially the same as the DLV11. If these two systems are at all 'ordinary' and 'unremarkable' then there you go! Hope this helps! BTW, I might have HT11 on floppies hidden in some boxes. Haven't yet gotten to doing the software inventory. - J From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 21:31:57 2007 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:31:57 -0400 Subject: Pinging Dan Veeneman Message-ID: <80b37ffc0706221931l670ab8b7s1f29985fe8ddf118@mail.gmail.com> Tried to reply to your emails but i'm getting message delivery failed responses -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 22 21:46:37 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 03:46:37 +0100 Subject: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available References: Message-ID: <008801c7b540$b928c620$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I can't comment on the quality of their services, I just >happened to have a magazine on the desk with their adverts >in. Thanks for the info, mostly just idle curiosity at the moment. TTFN - Pete. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Jun 22 22:59:07 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 21:59:07 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org> <575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467C9A8B.8040006@brutman.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 22/06/07, Jim Leonard wrote: >> One of the most "common" oddball machines you can actually still pick up >> in a lot of places is the PCjr. >> >> I've always been partial to "luggables" that include more than they >> should, like the Panasonic Sr. Partner which has a printer behind the >> CRT. A friend told me he used to lug that thing onto planes and through >> airport terminals and lost weight doing it. The printer used a roll of >> fax paper, so all of your printouts looked like faxes. > > I don't think that a PC in an unusual form factor counts as genuinely > weird, different or interesting! > I don't think that unusual form factor is the only issue with a PCjr. - Plastic case instead of metal (ok, unusual form factor) - 'Sidecar' expansion bus (ok, unusual form factor) - Memory expansions provide their own DRAM refresh controllers - Cartridge slots ... never to be seen again - Onboard video that shared memory with main memory (first use of term VGA for Video Gate Array) - Onboard diagnostics; no need for a diskette - Compatible, but not compatible, by design. - Crippled enough in BIOS and hardware to require some really cool hacks For a computer, not too weird. For a PC from Big Blue, it's like an acid trip. Mike From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 22 22:30:42 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 21:30:42 -0600 Subject: Your contributions wanted! DEC graphics products Message-ID: OK, I know DEC had some graphics products (VR something? GT something?) and I know that some of you out there are much more knowledgable about these than I, so can I get a little help here? Please create a free account on my web site and add information about DEC graphics peripherals for the PDP-8, PDP-11, and DECsystem series of computers. If you know stuff about their workstations that would be great too! Everything is done as a wiki, so it should be easy to edit and add information once you create yourself an account. The whole site is run by me, and I give spammers a quick knee to the groin when I meet them in person, so you know I'm not going to abuse your personal data. Thanks for your help! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 22 23:05:04 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 21:05:04 -0700 Subject: Your contributions wanted! DEC graphics products Message-ID: <467C9BF0.3000006@bitsavers.org> > OK, I know DEC had some graphics products (VR something? GT something?) DEC had a long history of displays, going back to the Type 30 display on the PDP-1 Type 338, 339, and 340 displays processors for the PDP-8, 9 and 10, respectively DEC's laboratory systems all had point plot scopes (LINC, LINC/8, PDP12) VR was the designation for their CRTs. There were two generations of display list vector processors (VT-11, packaged with a PDP11 CPU as the GT series) and the VS-60 and a 512x512 raster display with a similar instruction set (VS-11) -- The E&S LDS-1 was a peripheral for the KA-10 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 22 23:25:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 21:25:08 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C63CC.6080504@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467BFABF.1923.73298102@cclist.sydex.com>, <467C63CC.6080504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <467C3E34.25751.7430FDFA@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jun 2007 at 18:05, woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > How many MPUs had no provision for interrupts? The Rockwell PPS-8 is > > one that comes to mind. What's surprising is that it was used in the > > Diablo dot-matrix printer--something you'd think that was a very good > > candidate for an interrupt-driven architecture. > > I don't think Motorola's 1 bit processer had that feature. You'd actually call the MC14500 a processor? Golly, can't add, no program counter, basically a 1 bit logic unit. Speaking of 1 bit oddities, does anyone on the list collect PDP-14s or even PDP-16s? Just curious. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 23:34:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 00:34:43 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <005201c7b51c$480928a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com>, <467C0792.9050704@mainecoon.com> <467BCED9.19505.727E0566@cclist.sydex.com> <005201c7b51c$480928a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <467CA2E3.2020400@gmail.com> Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > The GI CP-1600 16-bit CPU had an architecture very similar > >to the PDP-11, but used a 10-bit instruction word. I think > >GI even marketed 10 bit ROMs. These were used in various > >incarnations as the CPU in many Activision consoles. > > They were used in the various "Intellivision" consoles.... > > That's a machine I'd like to have a play around with (as in > programming), but I'm having too much fun with the Vectrex right now. ;-) I wrote code for the CP-1610 at some point in the past, but I don't remember where or when. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 23:40:19 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 00:40:19 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C3E34.25751.7430FDFA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467BFABF.1923.73298102@cclist.sydex.com>, <467C63CC.6080504@jetnet.ab.ca> <467C3E34.25751.7430FDFA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <467CA433.4010500@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> How many MPUs had no provision for interrupts? The Rockwell PPS-8 is >>> one that comes to mind. What's surprising is that it was used in the >>> Diablo dot-matrix printer--something you'd think that was a very good >>> candidate for an interrupt-driven architecture. >> I don't think Motorola's 1 bit processer had that feature. > > You'd actually call the MC14500 a processor? Golly, can't add, no > program counter, basically a 1 bit logic unit. How does one implement a 1-bit program counter? Seems to me being able to distinguish between two program instructions doesn't seem *all* that useful. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 23 00:02:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:02:13 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467CA433.4010500@gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467C3E34.25751.7430FDFA@cclist.sydex.com>, <467CA433.4010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <467C46E5.15935.7452EFE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jun 2007 at 0:40, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How does one implement a 1-bit program counter? Seems to me being able > to distinguish between two program instructions doesn't seem *all* that > useful. 8-) The program counter (like memory and its addressing as well as registers to hold a jump target) was to be provided externally. The MC14500 handled data in 1-bit chunks, but had a 4-bit instruction word. But the exact meaning of the JMP instruction was left up to the customer. When I first saw the datasheet for that silly chip, I thought one could do considerably more with a sequencer consisting of a ROM and a latch. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 23 00:06:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:06:13 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467CA433.4010500@gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467BFABF.1923.73298102@cclist.sydex.com>, <467C63CC.6080504@jetnet.ab.ca> <467C3E34.25751.7430FDFA@cclist.sydex.com> <467CA433.4010500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <467CAA45.5000208@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How does one implement a 1-bit program counter? Seems to me being able > to distinguish between two program instructions doesn't seem *all* that > useful. 8-) Well the same logic is used with "Press any key to format drive C: Press any other key to Abort". > Peace... Sridhar From theresa at explainamation.com Thu Jun 21 20:59:48 2007 From: theresa at explainamation.com (Theresa Welsh) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 21:59:48 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 Message-ID: The True Story of Microcomputer Pioneers 2007 is the 30th Anniversary of the TRS-80! Only $19.95 348 pages, with full Index 121 illustrations Priming the Pump: How TRS-80 Microcomputer Enthusiasts Helped Spark the PC Revolution takes you back to the largely unknown origins of personal computing. We wrote this book from personal experience, since we were part of the community of small software entrepreneurs from those days. The First Off-the-Shelf Microcomputer We tell the story of how Steve Leininger, working alone in an old saddle factory in Fort Worth, built the first TRS-80; its total development costs were less than $150,000. He had to make a product that could be sold for a price Radio Shack customers could afford. Yet no one had ever sold a complete off-the-shelf mass market personal computer before. The TRS-80 took the microcomputer from an expensive device built by electronic hobbyists to something anyone could buy and operate. Introduced in August 1977, the TRS-80 Model I from Tandy Corporation was sold in Radio Shack's 3500 stores across the nation for the modest price of $599.95. It all began in the late 1970s when a computer hobbyist at Tandy Corporation, Don French, suggested to his bosses that they should build and sell a computer. The Tandy managers were dubious that anyone would buy it, but they paid a visit to Silicon Valley and finally hired a young engineer, Steve Leininger, to come to Ford Worth and build a computer. Leininger siezed an opportunity to do hands-on work with the new microchips that hobbyists were using to build their own computers. The result of his efforts was the revolutionary TRS-80 Model I, a product so successful that Tandy Corporation found itself overwhelmed with orders it was not ready to fill. But as eager customers finally got their hands on their very own computer, for the first time, they could experiment with software. Now anyone could affordably use word processing, spreadsheets, accounting, database and other kinds of software... as soon as someone wrote programs to perform those functions and made them available. And enterprising individuals working in basements and garages did create those programs. By the early 1980s, as the first wave of software entrepreneurs sold their wares through the bulging pages of 80 Micro magazine, customers had a big choice of software. The Real Story, From the People Who Lived It In our case, I (David Welsh) was one of those self-taught programmers. My word processor, Lazy Writer, was sold worldwide to enthusiastic fans who were eager to dump their typewriters. My wife, Theresa, created our product literature, dealt with dealers and customers and managed our office. These were extraordinary years, when software was new and everyone was learning. It was before Microsoft was a household word, and when software generally had only one author. Programmers were proud of fitting useful features into limited memory, and some became stars. Incredible Stories, All True! a.. John Roach, Tandy's product manager, got an agreement from Charles Tandy to build 3500 units after Leininger demonstrated the prototype; this was exactly the number of stores they had -- Roach figured if no one bought the computers, at least the stores could use them. Don French, a true believer, predicted they'd sell 50,000 the first year and urged the company to gear up the factory for mass production. Tandy managers, thinking they could never sell that many, were surprised when, in the weeks after the introduction, the Tandy switchboard was paralyzed with over 15,000 calls from people wanting to order a TRS-80. In the first year, over 250,000 people went on waiting lists to buy a TRS-80! b.. Tandy contracted with Randy Cook to create a Disk Operating System (TRSDOS) for its next generation TRS-80, which would come with floppy disk drives. The company agreed Cook would retain ownership of the code. But Cook, believing Tandy violated the agreement, created a rival DOS which he sold through his own company. Clueless Tandy managers found Cooks' name embedded in the TRSDOS code. c.. TRSDOS replacements appeared - five of them - and programmers made up their own homespun magazine ads touting their products great features and attacking their rivals' products in the pages of magazines like 80 Micro, the most popular of many publications devoted to the TRS-80. d.. Wayne Green, publisher of popular computer magazines, promised to "editorially break" Radio Shack because they would not carry his 80 Micro magazine in their stores; his vitriolic column often lambasted Radio Shack CEO John Roach. e.. Bill Schroeder, a successful businessman, bankrolled Logical Systems, Inc. and sold Tandy on LDOS as the company-sponsored TRSDOS replacement. A state-of-the-art headquarters and a pile of money followed the lucrative contract, but once he sensed the coming demise of the TRS-80, Schroeder simply shut down his company, a move he came to regret. f.. Scott Adams created popular Adventure games for the TRS-80 and other early microcomputers, became a celebrity in the magazines, but went broke when he produced too many game cartridges for a computer that died in the marketplace. g.. Along with microcomputers, robots were also hot. Meet the robots of the 1980s - and the man who said we were all going to have mechanical men in our homes by the year 2000. Unlike the PC revolution, the robot revolution fizzled. h.. A notorious scam artist preyed on the gullibility of microcomputer enthusiasts, destroying the Southern California Computer Society with a Ponzi scheme, then bilking TRS-80 owners out of thousands of dollars with magazine ads from a bogus company called World Power Systems showing phony products. Get the real story, based on interviews with microcomputer pioneers like Steve Leininger, Don French, Randy Cook, Mark Lautenschlauger, Bill Schroeder, Ed Juge and others. They tell their story for the first time, captured by the authors, who lived through it all. Visit www.microcomputerpioneers.com to read excerpts and order your copy. NOTES: You can get the book from us or from amazon.com. We thank all the people who emailed us about the book. We really appreciate your interest and your comments. Please forward this note to anyone who might be interested in Priming the PUmp. From jrr at flippers.com Fri Jun 22 11:57:23 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 09:57:23 -0700 Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 In-Reply-To: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> References: <467AD845.10208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 12:57 PM -0700 6/21/07, Al Kossow wrote: >The wisdom of using this stuff was being discussed on another mailing >list, so I thought I'd see what people knew about it. I suspect it is >similar to this: > >http://www.stabilant.com/techt20h.htm > >There seems to be almost nothing on the web about what the Caig stuff >actually is. Materials safety data sheet lists ingredients as 'trade secret' > >Reasonable discussion of the Stabilant stuff in patent #4696832 In my quest for more reliable repairs I have been using Dow Corning #4 Electrical Insultating Compound for a number of years on all our high current (>1A) plugs and sockets. I find that it reduces or eliminates corrosion, plus it also reduces contact resistance and a connector that was warm to the touch is now cool. Not very expensive either... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Fri Jun 22 13:06:10 2007 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:06:10 -0700 Subject: Swedish Computer (History) Museum In-Reply-To: <200706221135.l5MBZBdh020346@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200706221135.l5MBZBdh020346@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I visited IT-ceum, the swedish computer history museum, in Link?ping couple weeks ago. Very nice Museum, worth a visit if you are in Scandanavia or northern Europe. English web site at http://www.it-ceum.com/english/index.php. More pictures via the swedish version at http://www.itceum.se/utst_bild.php or search for photos with the keyword "it-ceum". Enjoy, Lee Courtney From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jun 22 14:58:06 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:58:06 -0400 Subject: Baseline H-11 board set? Message-ID: <0JK100KZWZGQ1R1C@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Baseline H-11 board set? > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:56:17 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi, all, > >I dug out my H-11 and H-27 this week, to take yet another stab at >getting the H-27 drives working. The H-11 itself works fine with >various DEC boards (including an RXV11 + RX01), but I'd like to get it >working as an H-11, not a PDP-11 in a Heath shell. > >What I haven't been able to find online is a list of the boards that >an H-11 typically shipped with. I know it used an LSI-11 (11/03) CPU, >so there's that, plus a console SLU board, probably a Heath one (don't >know the part number), the H-27 host card, and at least 16K of RAM, >I'm figuring, but is there anything else? In particular, I'm thinking >about bus termination... an unremarkable PDP-11/23 board set might be >a KDF-11 + MSV11 + RXV11 + DLV11E + BDV11... that gives you (in order) >CPU, memory, disk, console SLU, and bootstrap/terminator. What's the >equivalent combo for an unremarkable H-11? > >-ethan Barest minimum: LSI-11 16kram (or a partial populated card of 4k) SLU (dl equivilent) Additional items: FDC interface for H27 (the Heath Floppy interface has a BOOT rom) Second serial (usually printer in DEC systems) Parallel for Heath punch reader. A terminator is NOT required for LSI-11 nor a BDV(boot card) as uODT allwos for boot code if needed by hand entry. Allison From bqt at softjar.se Fri Jun 22 20:43:26 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 02:43:26 +0100 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re:, Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <200706211611.l5LGASBq058110@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706211611.l5LGASBq058110@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <467C7ABE.6000802@softjar.se> Allison skrev: > > > > > >Subject: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:22:25 -0400 > > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > >On 6/20/07, Roger Ivie wrote: > >> >> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: > >>> >> > It's an easy cpu to interface and use... > > > > >> >> > >> >> However, it's not without its obnoxious bits. > >> >> > >> >> On the T-11, all writes are performed as read-modify-writes. > > > > > >Hmm... was that because of the needs of core memory, or was it just to > > >simplify some aspect of its internal design? > > It's part of the memory to memory design and the way intructions work. > > It's annying as micros go but ALL PDP-11s word that way and the T-11 > is a PDP-11 in LSI. No, it isn't. Where did you get that? (And I've just triple checked my memory by actually reading through parts of the 11/40 and 11/70 manuals.) The 11/70 don't even have a read-modify-write cycle defined on the memory bus. If you write less than 32 bits, the memory box itself must do the read-modify-write cycle. The CPU and memory bus is totally unaware of that detail. On the Unibus, the processor can use both pure write cycles (DATO/B) or read-modify-write (DATIP followed by DATO/B). The memory systems can, and must be able to deal with both. Saying that RMW is a part of the memory to memory design is pure nonsense. And the same for how instructions work. It depends on wether the instruction mandates that it's a RMW or not. Arithmentic instructions for instance, are typical read-modify-write, while pure writes becomes pure writes on the bus to memory as well. So in short: writes on PDP-11 systems in general don't imply a read. That's a T-11 thing if it does, and is probably related to simplifying the design (internal) more than anything else. I don't think they did it with core memories in mind. All Unibus core memories have their own write-back. That isn't something the CPU bothers with. For the Q-bus, I don't even know if any core memories exist. Johnny From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 23 00:28:09 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:28:09 -0700 Subject: Industrial 14's Message-ID: <467CAF69.30605@bitsavers.org> > does anyone on the list collect PDP-14s I'd like to find an Industrial 14 and VT-14 for CHM. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 23 01:11:42 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0706221109p5e00b97bi67f87e6fbd0381e0@mail.gmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "Jun 22, 7 02:09:38 pm" Message-ID: <200706230611.l5N6Bgmf009606@floodgap.com> > > I do remember a true command-line environment for C program development > > on the Mac. I believe Apple's came with one. There were probably others, > > maybe Manx. "Programmer's Workbench" comes to mind, but I'm not sure if > > that's it. > The full name was "Macintosh Programmer's Workshop" It let you use *nix > style development tools such as yacc, patch and grep, and gave you a CLI to > the compilers and linkers. Also, the colon *was* the internal path seperator > for the Mac, just like / in *nix and \ in MS-DOS. Also, don't forget that every PCI-based Power Macintosh could be forced into OpenFirmware. People have designed elegant applications to run in this very minimal but powerful environment. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The only abnormality is the inability to love. -- Anais Nin ---------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 23 01:48:18 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:48:18 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <467CC232.9070104@bitsavers.org> > Also, don't forget that every PCI-based Power Macintosh could be forced into > OpenFirmware. And you can thank me and Ron Hochsprung for that. When we were developing the second generation PPC Macs, Ron and I decided that OF would be the best solution for boot support of PCI devices, since Sun had forced OF into the PCI spec for boot firmware and neither of us thought Apple should reinvent some one-off boot protocol. But thanks to all the world being x86, it really didn't matter anyway since very few vendors ever supported OF on their cards. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 23 01:49:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 02:49:15 -0400 Subject: Your contributions wanted! DEC graphics products In-Reply-To: <467C9BF0.3000006@bitsavers.org> References: <467C9BF0.3000006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Jun 23, 2007, at 12:05 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > VR was the designation for their CRTs. There were two generations > of display list > vector processors (VT-11, packaged with a PDP11 CPU as the GT > series) and the VS-60 > and a 512x512 raster display with a similar instruction set (VS-11) Speaking of VT-11...I'd really like to get my hands on a VT-11 board set. I already have the correct backplane. Anybody have a spare set that they wouldn't mind turning loose of? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 23 01:50:25 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:50:25 -0700 Subject: Q-Bus core memory Message-ID: <467CC2B1.90609@bitsavers.org> > For the Q-bus, I don't even know if any core memories exist. There was a 4k quad board for the original 11/03, but that was long dead by the time the T11 came out. From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 01:56:33 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 16:56:33 +1000 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 References: Message-ID: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Theresa Welsh" To: Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 11:59 AM Subject: The late, great TRS-80 > The First Off-the-Shelf Microcomputer Errrr.... wasn't that the PET 20001 ? cheers, Lance // http://www.commodore128.org Commodore 128 forums & more! // From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 23 02:10:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 03:10:56 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BFABF.1923.73298102@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BFABF.1923.73298102@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <979ADDD5-3C5B-4E6E-9AE2-ED6B2030E864@neurotica.com> On Jun 22, 2007, at 7:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How many MPUs had no provision for interrupts? The Rockwell PPS-8 is > one that comes to mind. What's surprising is that it was used in the > Diablo dot-matrix printer--something you'd think that was a very good > candidate for an interrupt-driven architecture. Some of the lower-end PIC microcontrollers lack interrupts. Dunno if microcontrollers fall under the OP's definition of "computers" though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From useddec at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 02:35:05 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 02:35:05 -0500 Subject: Your contributions wanted! DEC graphics products In-Reply-To: References: <467C9BF0.3000006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <624966d60706230035x7ed0cecfu6e85951e5173ecbe@mail.gmail.com> I have extra boards and maybe an extra backplane, and a VR 12, but need a VR14 or 17. Paul Anderson On 6/23/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jun 23, 2007, at 12:05 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > VR was the designation for their CRTs. There were two generations > > of display list > > vector processors (VT-11, packaged with a PDP11 CPU as the GT > > series) and the VS-60 > > and a 512x512 raster display with a similar instruction set (VS-11) > > Speaking of VT-11...I'd really like to get my hands on a VT-11 > board set. I already have the correct backplane. Anybody have a > spare set that they wouldn't mind turning loose of? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 23 02:58:18 2007 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 09:58:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Industrial 14's In-Reply-To: <467CAF69.30605@bitsavers.org> References: <467CAF69.30605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <19661.88.211.153.27.1182585498.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > > does anyone on the list collect PDP-14s > > I'd like to find an Industrial 14 and VT-14 for CHM. > > The only thing I have is a processor reference card, the 'IRC11 Industrial Control Subsystem Remote Maintenance Manual' the 'ICS11 Industrial Control Subsystem Maintenance Manual' and a testbox to check out some of the modules. Ed From useddec at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 02:59:57 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 02:59:57 -0500 Subject: Industrial 14's In-Reply-To: <467CAF69.30605@bitsavers.org> References: <467CAF69.30605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <624966d60706230059n52c7ef6aq36ca79ffc5e4278@mail.gmail.com> I will be more than willing to loan you all of my Industrial 14 docs for scaning. I also have a lot of hardware, but will likely keep some of it and sell the rest. On 6/23/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > does anyone on the list collect PDP-14s > > I'd like to find an Industrial 14 and VT-14 for CHM. > > From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 23 03:26:53 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 03:26:53 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org> <575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467CD94D.2030406@oldskool.org> Liam Proven wrote: > On 22/06/07, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Liam Proven wrote: >> > What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* machines >> > that folks have seen? >> >> One of the most "common" oddball machines you can actually still pick up >> in a lot of places is the PCjr. >> >> I've always been partial to "luggables" that include more than they >> should, like the Panasonic Sr. Partner which has a printer behind the >> CRT. A friend told me he used to lug that thing onto planes and through >> airport terminals and lost weight doing it. The printer used a roll of >> fax paper, so all of your printouts looked like faxes. > > I don't think that a PC in an unusual form factor counts as genuinely > weird, different or interesting! A "portable" computer with everything-and-the-kitchen-sink included isn't different or interesting? The thing had an embedded CRT and printer. The manufacturer calling it portable was an oxymoron. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 23 03:28:23 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 03:28:23 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <467CD9A7.50804@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > It also ran an OS called POS Funny, I call many OSes "POS" nowadays... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jun 23 05:24:12 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 07:24:12 -0300 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <424AE522-EB78-4C0A-BC0E-4C9D8F969EDC@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <0a4901c7b581$3c8b76d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > What I want to know is, what did they write the original mac os on. > And is that what they wrote the subsequent versions on? A copy of > the last version? Wholly Bootstraps Macman! www.folklore.org From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 23 05:44:10 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 06:44:10 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C46E5.15935.7452EFE5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C3E34.25751.7430FDFA@cclist.sydex.com> <467CA433.4010500@gmail.com> <467C46E5.15935.7452EFE5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070623104410.4ED69BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 23 Jun 2007 at 0:40, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > How does one implement a 1-bit program counter? Seems to me being able > > to distinguish between two program instructions doesn't seem *all* that > > useful. 8-) > > The program counter (like memory and its addressing as well as > registers to hold a jump target) was to be provided externally. Some of the more clever designs avoided a program counter by having the program cycle around sequentially and repeatedly. Why put the concept of a PC into the engine if the engine doesn't need the concept of a PC? And the most clever designs avoided jump targets too by never having the program take a branch. They would use the conditional-skip codes to skip the instructions they didn't want, in the never ending repeating instruction stream. For industrial controllers, the above is really a very good match. If you want to be really really sure you can't smash the stack or start executing data, not only not having a stack but not having a PC in the traditional sense was a huge advantage. Now the minimalist industrial-controller mindset is not out there very much today. Everyone carries around ipods and cellphones and all sorts of junk sold by having a bazillion features and submenus. Tim. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jun 23 05:46:49 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:46:49 +0100 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re:, Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <467C7ABE.6000802@softjar.se> References: <200706211611.l5LGASBq058110@dewey.classiccmp.org> <467C7ABE.6000802@softjar.se> Message-ID: <467CFA19.1050100@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/06/2007 02:43, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Allison skrev: > > It's part of the memory to memory design and the way intructions work. > > > > It's annying as micros go but ALL PDP-11s word that way and the T-11 > > is a PDP-11 in LSI. > > No, it isn't. Where did you get that? (And I've just triple checked my > memory by actually reading through parts of the 11/40 and 11/70 manuals.) Even the normal QBus CPUs don't work that way. Yes, there are DATIO cycles which do read-modify-write, but most instructions use DATI or DATO cycles. > So in short: writes on PDP-11 systems in general don't imply a read. > That's a T-11 thing if it does, and is probably related to simplifying > the design (internal) more than anything else. I don't think they did it > with core memories in mind. All Unibus core memories have their own > write-back. That isn't something the CPU bothers with. > > For the Q-bus, I don't even know if any core memories exist. Yes, there is a core memory (MMV11), but it is perfectly happy with normal DATI and DATO cycles. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 23 07:15:28 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 08:15:28 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706221605r41594de3s87549b42a202121f@mail.gmail.com> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <575131af0706221605r41594de3s87549b42a202121f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Liam Proven" wrote: > On 22/06/07, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > My taste for the last several years is to play around with > > > > 1: dedicated industrial logic (e.g. elevator and machine controllers) > > > > 2: Analog computers > > > > 3: Electromechanical stuff, especially if somewhat programmable > > > > Now, none of the above are things with video screens and > > keyboards, and in most cases they don't even have readily > > recognized "instruction sets", but they all do computing in a > > pre-Von-Neumann sense. > > Well, true, but they're not really general-purpose computers, as I > specified. I know there's all sorts of weirdness once you leave the > world of the desktop (or server), but it's not anything I can really > relate to or get interested in myself. I occasionally get worried about that sort of attitude. I understand wanting to relate to what we collect. I understand that not everyone has the same background as I do in process and industrial control. But... I feel that if collectors/museums concentrate only on their narrow definition of "computer", they will neglect all the stuff that led to computers. Right now, because a lot of this stuff was designed with 50 to 100 year lifespans (maybe not designed intentionally but that's what it's working out to), much of it is still in service, but I can see just a few years from now that a lot of it will be gone. Some of the more interesting military special-purpose computers are being preserved (e.g. Norden bombsights) along with historical context, but almost nothing else is. Tim. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 23 10:08:19 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 08:08:19 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706230611.l5N6Bgmf009606@floodgap.com> Message-ID: >From: Cameron Kaiser > > > > I do remember a true command-line environment for C program >development > > > on the Mac. I believe Apple's came with one. There were probably >others, > > > maybe Manx. "Programmer's Workbench" comes to mind, but I'm not sure >if > > > that's it. > > > The full name was "Macintosh Programmer's Workshop" It let you use *nix > > style development tools such as yacc, patch and grep, and gave you a CLI >to > > the compilers and linkers. Also, the colon *was* the internal path >seperator > > for the Mac, just like / in *nix and \ in MS-DOS. > >Also, don't forget that every PCI-based Power Macintosh could be forced >into >OpenFirmware. People have designed elegant applications to run in this very >minimal but powerful environment. > Hi It is too bad Windows and the PC group didn't continue the OpenFirmware concept. This is the dominant reason why Windows takes so long to boot. It basically has to hunt for hardware by timing out rather than not seeing any boot configuration code. It was a bad move that has cost millions if not billions of dollars worth of lost productive time. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! http://mobile.msn.com From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 23 10:26:03 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 08:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467CC232.9070104@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Jun 22, 7 11:48:18 pm" Message-ID: <200706231526.l5NFQ3bE011724@floodgap.com> > > Also, don't forget that every PCI-based Power Macintosh could be forced > > into OpenFirmware. > > And you can thank me and Ron Hochsprung for that. Really? In that case, hats off. I like OF and think it is woefully underutilized. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Commodore Business Machines (1954-1994) ----------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 10:28:59 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 16:28:59 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467CD94D.2030406@oldskool.org> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org> <575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com> <467CD94D.2030406@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <575131af0706230828x237e489fyf6bf3f017b2e0be9@mail.gmail.com> On 23/06/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > On 22/06/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> One of the most "common" oddball machines you can actually still pick up > >> in a lot of places is the PCjr. > >> > >> I've always been partial to "luggables" that include more than they > >> should, like the Panasonic Sr. Partner which has a printer behind the > >> CRT. A friend told me he used to lug that thing onto planes and through > >> airport terminals and lost weight doing it. The printer used a roll of > >> fax paper, so all of your printouts looked like faxes. > > > > I don't think that a PC in an unusual form factor counts as genuinely > > weird, different or interesting! > A "portable" computer with everything-and-the-kitchen-sink included > isn't different or interesting? The thing had an embedded CRT and > printer. The manufacturer calling it portable was an oxymoron. Well, to be honest, no! I was thinking of weirdness in terms of logic, architecture or OS. Any variant on the PC design that's sold by the hundreds of millions is pretty vanilla compared to any early IBM mainframe, for instance... -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 23 11:43:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 09:43:50 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com>, <575131af0706221605r41594de3s87549b42a202121f@mail.gmail.com>, <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <467CEB56.30115.76D548D7@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jun 2007 at 8:15, Tim Shoppa wrote: > But... I feel that if collectors/museums concentrate only on their > narrow definition of "computer", they will neglect all the stuff > that led to computers. Right now, because a lot of this stuff was > designed with 50 to 100 year lifespans (maybe not designed intentionally > but that's what it's working out to), much of it is still in service, > but I can see just a few years from now that a lot of it will be gone. > > Some of the more interesting military special-purpose computers > are being preserved (e.g. Norden bombsights) along with historical > context, but almost nothing else is. Tim, I understand what you're saying and completely agree. My first paying job was with pre-computer industrial process control using not only electronic, but pneumatic and hydraulic systems. While not a result of stored-program digital computers, the computation performed by mechanical systems is certainly worthy of study. I believe that earlier issues of the IEEE Annals have given this aspect of computation some coverage. In a way, the old systems had a beautiful simplicity--no one tried to add Windows or an MP3 player or a camera to them. They were made for a purpose and performed their function very well and reliably for many years. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 23 12:09:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:09:52 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <979ADDD5-3C5B-4E6E-9AE2-ED6B2030E864@neurotica.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467BFABF.1923.73298102@cclist.sydex.com> <979ADDD5-3C5B-4E6E-9AE2-ED6B2030E864@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <467D53E0.5040004@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 22, 2007, at 7:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Some of the lower-end PIC microcontrollers lack interrupts. Dunno if > microcontrollers fall under the OP's definition of "computers" though. That reminds me that a very fast cpu chip was designed for very fast multi-tasking.Poiled I/O is faster than a IRQ could be because you can change threads very quickly. > -Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 23 12:30:47 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:30:47 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <467D58C7.207@bitsavers.org> > That reminds me that a very fast cpu chip was designed for very fast > multi-tasking.Poiled I/O is faster than a IRQ could be because you > can change threads very quickly. Ubicom http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/3151/3151.html From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 23 12:51:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:51:17 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467D58C7.207@bitsavers.org> References: <467D58C7.207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <467CFB25.8929.771310DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jun 2007 at 10:30, Al Kossow wrote: > > That reminds me that a very fast cpu chip was designed for very fast > > multi-tasking.Poiled I/O is faster than a IRQ could be because you > > can change threads very quickly. > > Ubicom > > http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/3151/3151.html >From the article: "If an HRT thread is waiting for an interrupt, or if it's not ready, then its slots can be used by NRT threads. These are scheduled in a round-robin fashion, with each thread getting one slot every time it runs." This would seem to indicate that interrupts are part of the chip--or that the original author meant to say "event" instead of "interrupt". The CDC 6000 series used a 10 way multithreaded architecture virtualized as 10 independent 12-bit processors for I/O. No interrupts necessary there either. But then, back in 1964, I don't know if the word "multithreaded" had been invented yet. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 23 12:50:40 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 13:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706231752.NAA00922@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It is too bad Windows and the PC group didn't continue the > OpenFirmware concept. [...] It was a bad move that has cost > millions if not billions of dollars worth of lost productive time. I think having an OS that crashes weekly - daily, or worse, in many cases - and needs a complete ground-up reinstall at least annually has cost their customers far more. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 23 14:05:03 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 12:05:03 -0700 Subject: Multithreaded hardware Message-ID: <467D6EDF.4010205@bitsavers.org> > The CDC 6000 series used a 10 way multithreaded architecture > virtualized as 10 independent 12-bit processors for I/O. No > interrupts necessary there either. But then, back in 1964, I don't > know if the word "multithreaded" had been invented yet. This also apparently appears in the Honeywell 1800. Need to dig out info on that. I knew the TX-2 and Xerox Alto implemented multiple hardware contexts. I'm pretty sure Mark Smotherman covers this on his site, which Brad mentioned a day or two ago. From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Sat Jun 23 15:23:48 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 15:23:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: <873207.79661.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have an IBM Series/1 system also. I have many manuals and books for it that I need to get to bitsavers. Also, somewhere I have some software on 8" floppies. Unfortunately, I don't have a working boot device for mine. Some photos are on my web site at www.dvq.com under "old mainframes and minicomputers". > Behind the operators panel on my unit is a large power supply. > There are 10 or so boards in the main unit, then cables which run down to an expansion chassis. Possibly, those are the cables that have been cut on yours. The main chassis holds the processor, memory, and boot device attachment card, the expansion chassis has extra I/O cards, at least in my system. > There were quite a few different processor and system configurations so my info may not match yours. Let me know > if I can help in any way. You can contact me off-line if you want. Greetings Bob; I'll keep this public for a bit, see if any other Series/1 owners appear. I read through (alright, alright, skimmed) the three docs on BitSavers and believe my machine is a Model D revision, based on the card locations (Although I didn't see any reason behind -why- the card positions changed). This leads me to believe the unit has 64Kb of memory as well, which is nice. The cardcage is quite full (Only two empty slots), so I'm well stacked of I/O cards. I have the full rack, with a single 8" drive, and all the appropriate blanking panels. At one point the machine had a large hard disk - but this was taken apart by, presumably, the same Hell Spawn that took the power supply. When the manual said '300W' I had hopes I might be able to jerry-rig something... but upon looking at the four microribbons going into the back of the power supply casing, with what looks like 20 lines per ribbon... somehow I don't think I'll be able to deduce this without some much better hardware manuals (or, preferably, the real blasted PSU). Given there must have been many of these units made (if they were used in Chevy manufacturing plants and the like), one would hope someone on the ccmp list has some OS media. Anyone? JP From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 23 16:01:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 14:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> > > The First Off-the-Shelf Microcomputer On Sat, 23 Jun 2007, Lance Lyon wrote: > Errrr.... wasn't that the PET 20001 ? Possibly. Here we go again. What does "First Off-the-shelf Microcomputer" mean? First to go into design? First announced? First demo'd? First prototyped? First to enter production? First "released"? (what does THAT mean?) First that could be ordered? First delivered? First that could be purchased for cash in a store? Commodore Pet, Radio Shack TRS80, and Apple ][ were pretty much a tie! Any of those could claim "First", depending on which exact definition of "First" you select. The Pet was announced in January 1977 (CES), but wasn't "released" until about November 1977. Before any of those three, there were two computer stores in the East Bay that sold computers. Does the Kim-1 count? (yes, I know that you would have to program it to get it to count) Howzbout S100 crates? For a machine programmable in a high level language, I would have been looking at a little over $2000. MY personal definition would be the first one that I could buy for less than $500. That is a completely arbitrary definition. It turned out to be the TRS80 without the cassette recorder, and without the monitor (why should I pay Tandy $200 more, when I already HAVE composite (CCTV) monitors and tape recorders?) The FIRST microcoputer was the Antikytherian (sp?) device. Stonehenge was a mainframe, NOT a microcomputer. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 23 06:10:35 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 07:10:35 -0400 Subject: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re:,Simulated CP/M-68K? Message-ID: <0JK300IMX5PBAU3K@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re:,Simulated CP/M-68K? > From: Johnny Billquist > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 02:43:26 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Allison skrev: > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines,was: >Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > > > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:22:25 -0400 > > > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > > > > >On 6/20/07, Roger Ivie wrote: > > >> >> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: > > >>> >> > It's an easy cpu to interface and use... > > > > > > >> >> > > >> >> However, it's not without its obnoxious bits. > > >> >> > > >> >> On the T-11, all writes are performed as read-modify-writes. > > > > > > > >Hmm... was that because of the needs of core memory, or was it just to > > > >simplify some aspect of its internal design? > > > > It's part of the memory to memory design and the way intructions work. > > > > It's annying as micros go but ALL PDP-11s word that way and the T-11 > > is a PDP-11 in LSI. > >No, it isn't. Where did you get that? (And I've just triple checked my >memory by actually reading through parts of the 11/40 and 11/70 manuals.) > >The 11/70 don't even have a read-modify-write cycle defined on the >memory bus. If you write less than 32 bits, the memory box itself must >do the read-modify-write cycle. The CPU and memory bus is totally >unaware of that detail. >On the Unibus, the processor can use both pure write cycles (DATO/B) or >read-modify-write (DATIP followed by DATO/B). Then why is the output address of a DL card differnt from the input address? It doesnt have anthing to do with the read before write does it? >The memory systems can, and must be able to deal with both. Saying that >RMW is a part of the memory to memory design is pure nonsense. And the >same for how instructions work. It depends on wether the instruction >mandates that it's a RMW or not. >Arithmentic instructions for instance, are typical read-modify-write, >while pure writes becomes pure writes on the bus to memory as well. Ok, You attacked me. Why does the T-11 and most all of the Qbus machine do a read before write, or as you say a DATIP before any DATO(B/W)? >So in short: writes on PDP-11 systems in general don't imply a read. >That's a T-11 thing if it does, and is probably related to simplifying >the design (internal) more than anything else. I don't think they did it >with core memories in mind. All Unibus core memories have their own >write-back. That isn't something the CPU bothers with. > >For the Q-bus, I don't even know if any core memories exist. I do as I have two 16k sets (32kW). Allison > Johnny From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 23 16:20:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:20:04 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467CC232.9070104@bitsavers.org> References: <467CC232.9070104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Jun 23, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Also, don't forget that every PCI-based Power Macintosh could be > forced into > > OpenFirmware. > > And you can thank me and Ron Hochsprung for that. > > When we were developing the second generation PPC Macs, Ron and I > decided that > OF would be the best solution for boot support of PCI devices, > since Sun had > forced OF into the PCI spec for boot firmware and neither of us > thought Apple > should reinvent some one-off boot protocol. Bravo! I thought I had seen your name in the output of the "kudos" word on my G5. (was it kudos? it's been awhile) > But thanks to all the world being > x86, it really didn't matter anyway since very few vendors ever > supported OF > on their cards. *spit* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 23 16:24:17 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 14:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070623142306.U76392@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 23 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > It is too bad Windows and the PC group didn't continue the OpenFirmware > concept. This is the dominant reason why Windows takes so long to boot. > It basically has to hunt for hardware by timing out rather than not seeing > any boot configuration code. It was a bad move that has cost millions if > not billions of dollars worth of lost productive time. I used to make my students calculate the total cumulative time taken up by Windows bootstrapping. Then I made them divide it out into how many LIVES it cost. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 23 16:37:49 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:37:49 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <575131af0706221605r41594de3s87549b42a202121f@mail.gmail.com> <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Jun 23, 2007, at 8:15 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> Well, true, but they're not really general-purpose computers, as I >> specified. I know there's all sorts of weirdness once you leave the >> world of the desktop (or server), but it's not anything I can really >> relate to or get interested in myself. > > I occasionally get worried about that sort of attitude. I understand > wanting to relate to what we collect. I understand that not everyone > has the same background as I do in process and industrial control. > > But... I feel that if collectors/museums concentrate only on their > narrow definition of "computer", they will neglect all the stuff > that led to computers. Right now, because a lot of this stuff was > designed with 50 to 100 year lifespans (maybe not designed > intentionally > but that's what it's working out to), much of it is still in service, > but I can see just a few years from now that a lot of it will be gone. > > Some of the more interesting military special-purpose computers > are being preserved (e.g. Norden bombsights) along with historical > context, but almost nothing else is. Well this is clearly a problem. I consider myself to be a person having pretty general experience with technology, and I've never even heard of this stuff...but it sounds very interesting to me. Perhaps what is needed is a way to "get the word out". Pictures, descriptions, educational materials...YOU know about this stuff, but who else does? I'd love to learn about it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 23 16:35:55 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 22:35:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> from "Lance Lyon" at Jun 23, 7 04:56:33 pm Message-ID: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Theresa Welsh" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 11:59 AM > Subject: The late, great TRS-80 > > > > The First Off-the-Shelf Microcomputer > > Errrr.... wasn't that the PET 20001 ? For a sutiable definition of miucrocomputer [1] I'd claim the honour goes to the HP9830, about 5 years earlier. [1] All in one machine, sensible size for sticking on a desk, high level language in ROM, etc. The HP9830 has a QWERTY keynoard, one-line alphanumeric display, ROM basic (fairly minimal, but there were add-on ROM cartridges to expand it to a pretty complete BASIC), built-in mass storage (digital casstte drive), and so on. I would accept that the processor, a bit-serial 16 bit design using about 80 TTL chips, is stretching the definition of 'microcomputer' but anyway :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 23 16:29:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 22:29:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706221714w4a47de60v45a9b966a10c15b6@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Jun 23, 7 01:14:08 am Message-ID: > I've read about PERQs but I've never seen one; I don't believe I know > anyone who has one. They can't be that rare, I've got 4 of them. OK, the AGW3300 (PERQ 3a) is a PERQ in name only -- it's a 68020-based unix box, albeit with a graphics processor using a pair of 29116s. But the other 3 are classic-PERQs with the soft-microcoded CPU, etc. I don;t know how manyo other PERQ owners are here, but I would be suprised if there were none. There are a number of PERQ manuals on bitsavers if you want to find out more about these interesting machines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 23 16:39:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 22:39:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467CD9A7.50804@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jun 23, 7 03:28:23 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > It also ran an OS called POS > > Funny, I call many OSes "POS" nowadays... Not to be confused wht P/OS, which really is a PoS :-) [For the unitiated : POS = PERQ Operating Suystem (or Pascal Operating System, depending on which manual you read. Runs on classic PERQs. P/OS = Professional Operating System, an RSX-like thing with the most lusing front end it has ever been my misfortune to use. Runs on DEC Pro3xx machines, PoS = Piece of Sh*t :-) ] -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 17:13:42 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:13:42 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Their software is pretty unusual, but there's nothing that weird about > the hardware, is there? Not anymore, with the change to PowerAS some years back. The original AS/400s were more odd in the hardware sense. The whole concept of single level storage is amazing in that works at all. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 23 17:25:42 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 15:25:42 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <467D9DE6.8020305@bitsavers.org> > I thought I had seen your name in the output of the > "kudos" word on my G5. I should be in the hidden credits (ie. the 'cat in the hat' picture) from the first PCI PowerMacs until Apple abandoned PPC in 2005. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 17:33:11 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:33:11 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706230828x237e489fyf6bf3f017b2e0be9@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org> <575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com> <467CD94D.2030406@oldskool.org> <575131af0706230828x237e489fyf6bf3f017b2e0be9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I was thinking of weirdness in terms of logic, architecture or OS. Any > variant on the PC design that's sold by the hundreds of millions is > pretty vanilla compared to any early IBM mainframe, for instance... Of course no one has had the balls to say Itanium. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 17:36:28 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:36:28 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070623142306.U76392@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070623142306.U76392@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > I used to make my students calculate the total cumulative time taken up by > Windows bootstrapping. Then I made them divide it out into how many LIVES > it cost. How about this... Make your students calculate the cumulative time spent learning the ins and out of Unix. Then make them divide it out into how many LAYS it cost. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 17:50:07 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:50:07 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <575131af0706221605r41594de3s87549b42a202121f@mail.gmail.com> <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > But... I feel that if collectors/museums concentrate only on their > narrow definition of "computer", they will neglect all the stuff > that led to computers. There is a good side to this and a bad side. If any museum tries to cover too much ground in their collection policy, they tend not to do a good job > Some of the more interesting military special-purpose computers > are being preserved (e.g. Norden bombsights) along with historical > context, but almost nothing else is. This is a good point. When it comes to mechanical computation, the pinnacle of design is in the Naval fire control computers, like the Arma Mark 1A. Providing that the ships are cared for (and some really are), these machines can pretty much show just what mechanical computation is all about, in a most proper context. Many of the ships are essentially safe until the end of time, so as long as someone takes care of the machines inside, the knowledge of mechanical computing is very safe. The same is not true, to my knowledge, for industrial controls. Is there a community, however small, of collectors and historians? I certainly would like to know. I suppose there is some bleed thru from other disciplines - the railroad history guys do well with knowledge of interlocks and CTC, for example. At least one of the great neglected historic fields - the phone company - is starting to be dealt with by the collectors and museums*. It is amazing just how much pre-computer history came from Ma Bell, and until just a couple of years ago, was completely ignored. *On sad note, the little phone museum in Abeliene, KS closed its doors recently, due to money issues. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 17:57:46 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:57:46 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <575131af0706221605r41594de3s87549b42a202121f@mail.gmail.com> <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Well this is clearly a problem. I consider myself to be a person > having pretty general experience with technology, and I've never even > heard of this stuff...but it sounds very interesting to me. Perhaps > what is needed is a way to "get the word out". Pictures, > descriptions, educational materials...YOU know about this stuff, but > who else does? I'd love to learn about it. Contact one of the elevator installers and see if they would sell you an old relay control system, ripped out of a building undergoing a rebuild. -- Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 18:26:51 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 16:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <536707.25733.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> > Well this is clearly a problem. I consider > myself to be a person > having pretty general experience with technology, > and I've never even > heard of this stuff...but it sounds very > interesting to me. Perhaps > what is needed is a way to "get the word out". > Pictures, > descriptions, educational materials... I know, someone start a website named odd-computers. com. It's probably still available if you hurry! LOL LOL LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC From dancohoe at oxford.net Sat Jun 23 18:31:53 2007 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 19:31:53 -0400 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005201c7b5ee$aefd0590$6401a8c0@wcruz> JP Hindin said, > I'll keep this public for a bit, see if any other Series/1 > owners appear. > I read through (alright, alright, skimmed) the three docs on > BitSavers and > believe my machine is a Model D revision, based on the card locations > (Although I didn't see any reason behind -why- the card positions > changed). This leads me to believe the unit has 64Kb of > memory as well, > which is nice. The cardcage is quite full (Only two empty > slots), so I'm > well stacked of I/O cards. I have the full rack, with a > single 8" drive, > and all the appropriate blanking panels. At one point the > machine had a > large hard disk - but this was taken apart by, presumably, > the same Hell > Spawn that took the power supply. > > When the manual said '300W' I had hopes I might be able to jerry-rig > something... but upon looking at the four microribbons going > into the back > of the power supply casing, with what looks like 20 lines per > ribbon... > somehow I don't think I'll be able to deduce this without > some much better > hardware manuals (or, preferably, the real blasted PSU). > > Given there must have been many of these units made (if they > were used in > Chevy manufacturing plants and the like), one would hope > someone on the > ccmp list has some OS media. > Anyone? > > JP I have some processors/parts of Series/1 but it's all very very rough. Mostly stored semi-outside before I found it. It might be useful for a reconstruction effort though. Not sure exactly where this stuff is right now but if you don't mind waiting a while I'm sure I can find some of it, probably including a PS. As you have said, it was associated with a GM plant. There are still some tape readers in reasonably good condition at the junkyard. I have quite a few 8" floppies that I believe have some association with the equipment, but of course, no way to tell what might be on them. Dan No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.4/860 - Release Date: 6/21/07 5:53 PM From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jun 23 18:47:36 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:47:36 -0300 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 References: Message-ID: <0bb001c7b5f0$f59e76d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> > The First Off-the-Shelf Microcomputer >> Errrr.... wasn't that the PET 20001 ? > For a sutiable definition of miucrocomputer [1] I'd claim the honour goes > to the HP9830, about 5 years earlier. Tony, was the HP9830 a computer you could enter a shop and exit with one on the arms? I think the better definition of a "off-the-shelf" puter is a puter you can enter a shop, buy a system, bring it home. No special questions, training or instalation needed. And this should be a complete computer, something you would turn-on and use. Maybe the definiton of "off-the-shelf" is too vague Greetz Alexandre From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Jun 23 18:47:36 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 19:47:36 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 - 1st Z-80 appliance computer. In-Reply-To: <200706232204.l5NM3VKf001786@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070623192341.03077ea8@mail.degnanco.net> > > > The First Off-the-Shelf Microcomputer > >On Sat, 23 Jun 2007, Lance Lyon wrote: > > Errrr.... wasn't that the PET 20001 ? > >Possibly. I have recently done research into this topic. In Kilobaud and Byte magazines of 1977, there is general consensus that the Apple II, PET 2001, and TRS 80 were the first of a new class of "appliance" microcomputers. This is their term, not mine. There are numerous references to the "appliance computer class" in articles and comparisons to kit computers, etc. The appliance computer is defined as a computer ready to be used, out-of-the-box directly from the manufacturer. No component assembly required. Although you could get a KIM or Altair pre-assembled (there are ads in 1976 for this kind of service), ready to use with software, a middle-man would do the assembly/configuration/testing, not the manufacturer. Interestingly, this term appliance computer kind of fell off. The last reference I could find was a short 1978 article describing the Attache as an appliance computer. Other mag references? Using the Kilobaud and Byte mag definitions, I think it's safe to say that the TRS 80 was the first Z80-based appliance computer. According to these sources the Apple II started shipping earlier in 1977 than the PET 2001 or the TRS 80, so the Apple II the first appliance computer. The PET is the 2nd 6502 appliance computer, the first with a built-in monitor. The TRS 80 is definitely NOT the first microcomputer. Bill D From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Jun 23 20:05:25 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 19:05:25 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <467DC355.9020205@brutman.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Their software is pretty unusual, but there's nothing that weird about >> the hardware, is there? > > Not anymore, with the change to PowerAS some years back. The original > AS/400s were more odd in the hardware sense. > > The whole concept of single level storage is amazing in that works at all. > > -- > Will > > Even the current PPC hardware is not 'standard' .. there are some extensions to support the single level store. 'Tagged pointers' (ie: pointers marked as trusted by the OS) are the single biggest oddity that I can think of, and that requires hardware support. Sadly, the AS/400 line (iSeries) is slowly dying off ... IBM can't market it's way out of a paper bag, and the 'cash cow' status the machine has had has caused it to fall too far behind. Mike From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 23 19:08:13 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:08:13 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <575131af0706221605r41594de3s87549b42a202121f@mail.gmail.com> <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20070624000813.29223BA4472@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > [Special-purpose industrial controllers from the past 100 years] > > but that's what it's working out to), much of it is still in service, > > but I can see just a few years from now that a lot of it will be gone. > > > > Some of the more interesting military special-purpose computers > > are being preserved (e.g. Norden bombsights) along with historical > > context, but almost nothing else is. > > Well this is clearly a problem. I consider myself to be a person > having pretty general experience with technology, and I've never even > heard of this stuff...but it sounds very interesting to me. Perhaps > what is needed is a way to "get the word out". Pictures, > descriptions, educational materials...YOU know about this stuff, but > who else does? I'd love to learn about it. My main resources have been my day job (where else do you get hands- on experience on a $10Billion peripheral made out of largely relay logic?), the community there and at other properties (a community which is REMARKABLY not-web-based), and books from the 30's/40's/50's about digital logic using relays, tubes, cryotrons, etc. You are right, remarkably little of this is on the web. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 23 19:12:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:12:37 -0700 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 - 1st Z-80 appliance computer. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070623192341.03077ea8@mail.degnanco.net> References: <200706232204.l5NM3VKf001786@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <5.1.0.14.0.20070623192341.03077ea8@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <467D5485.22960.78702F33@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jun 2007 at 19:47, B. Degnan wrote: > The appliance computer is defined as a computer ready to be used, > out-of-the-box directly from the manufacturer. No component assembly > required. ...which reminds me of the Eagle demonstrations. Essentially a competition where a bunch of folks were given Eagles in factory packaging and a contest was held to see who could get a system unpacked and running. Wasn't the record something like 30 seconds? Eagle was one of those companies heavily reliant upon the instincts of a CEO who liked to engage in risky behavior. They lost the bet on that one. It was too bad--the Eagle was a nice system and the company never recovered after Barnhart's death. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 23 19:13:50 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:13:50 -0600 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <0bb001c7b5f0$f59e76d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <0bb001c7b5f0$f59e76d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <467DB73E.5020604@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > I think the better definition of a "off-the-shelf" puter is a puter > you can enter a shop, buy a system, bring it home. No special questions, > training or instalation needed. And this should be a complete computer, > something you would turn-on and use. Maybe the definiton of > "off-the-shelf" is too vague That would go to the PDP8/S from what I read in the PDP8 FAQ. > Greetz > Alexandre From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 19:16:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070623192341.03077ea8@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <94707.53978.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> I can't add much of anything to the conversation except for some opinions. >First to go into design? >First announced? >First demo'd? >First prototyped? >First to enter production? >First "released"? (what does THAT mean?) >First that could be ordered? >First delivered? >First that could be purchased for cash in a store? My vote goes to the unit that was the first *commercially* available one, regardless if it could be store bought or ordered. For entirely practical (?) purposes, this would mean the first that was mass produced. We could always allude to some weirded out prototype or whatever, and in fact such would earn the honor of being the very first -?. Announcements are irrelevant. The SX-64 was announced a year before it was released, yet later that same year ('83) the TI Portable Professional was released (available) and was *arguably* the first color portable computer. For such a position, prototypes and other criteria would be irrelevant. Not a *very first -*, but a *first -*, uh, if you get my drift. First mass produced, first available. Like I said, more or less opinions. But fine ones you'd have to agree ;) Availablity is paramount in this discussion though, regardless of the source. The TRS-80 Model 2000 was the late-st great TRS-80 if any of you hosers weren't aware. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 23 19:32:29 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 19:32:29 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <20070623142306.U76392@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <467DBB9D.9000705@oldskool.org> William Donzelli wrote: >> I used to make my students calculate the total cumulative time taken >> up by >> Windows bootstrapping. Then I made them divide it out into how many >> LIVES >> it cost. > > How about this... > > Make your students calculate the cumulative time spent learning the > ins and out of Unix. Then make them divide it out into how many LAYS > it cost. I had to read this about 4 times before I got the joke :-) I thought LAYS was an acronym for something ;) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 23 19:33:24 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 19:33:24 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706230828x237e489fyf6bf3f017b2e0be9@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org> <575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com> <467CD94D.2030406@oldskool.org> <575131af0706230828x237e489fyf6bf3f017b2e0be9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467DBBD4.2040803@oldskool.org> Liam Proven wrote: > I was thinking of weirdness in terms of logic, architecture or OS. Any > variant on the PC design that's sold by the hundreds of millions is > pretty vanilla compared to any early IBM mainframe, for instance... In that case, I second GI's 10-bit processor, already mentioned as being notable as the guts of a Mattel Intellivision. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 23 20:00:44 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <94707.53978.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <94707.53978.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070623173212.U84165@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 23 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: > My vote goes to the unit that was the first > *commercially* available one, regardless if it could > be store bought or ordered. For entirely practical (?) > purposes, this would mean the first that was mass > produced. We could always allude to some weirded out > prototype or whatever, and in fact such would earn the > honor of being the very first -?. Assuming that we are talking about "home appliance microcomputer" (which is also not completely defined): Neither Apple, nor Commodore, had adequate initial production. Although they were shipping to advance orders before Radio Shack was ready, the TRS80 was the first one that you could walk into a store and carry one out. Radio Shack, although not the first to ship their first, was shipping a few thousand while the others were shipping hundreds, and only to back-orders. > Announcements are irrelevant. Yep. Commodore announced at CES (1/1977), with a wooden prototype. All three had real machines by the First West Coast Computer Faire (mid April? 1977) Because of the overlaps over which part of the definition came first for which, it was a three way TIE. And, it fails to consider MANY smaller companies that preceded all three of them. There WERE a few small manufacturers building and selling complete machines. Similarly, the Berkeley Microcomputer Portable (Elcompco machine built into a Halliburton Attache case) preceded the Osborne I by a full day. Adam drank a glass of our champagne before he made his press announcement. But, after comparing a booth of flush doors on file cabinaets with >$10K of chrome and black plexiglass, production halted. The remaining machines were reconfigured by Elcompco into dedicated elevator statistical monitoring machines. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 20:12:48 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:12:48 -0700 Subject: Andromeda ESDC Q-Bus ESDI controller manual, anyone have one? Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90706231812n7794133r114aba59aeb09a56@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have the manual for the Andromeda ESDC Q-Bus ESDI controller? I have a controller which is not currently installed and there are enough jumpers on it that it would take a while to try to figure out exactly what they all do. A pinout for the serial port would be good to have also, although I could probably trace back to the MAX232 to figure out that pinout. Thanks, Glen From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 23 20:14:13 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 21:14:13 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706230611.l5N6Bgmf009606@floodgap.com> References: <200706230611.l5N6Bgmf009606@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200706232114.14153.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 23 June 2007 02:11, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I do remember a true command-line environment for C program development > > > on the Mac. I believe Apple's came with one. There were probably > > > others, maybe Manx. "Programmer's Workbench" comes to mind, but I'm > > > not sure if that's it. > > > > The full name was "Macintosh Programmer's Workshop" It let you use *nix > > style development tools such as yacc, patch and grep, and gave you a CLI > > to the compilers and linkers. Also, the colon *was* the internal path > > seperator for the Mac, just like / in *nix and \ in MS-DOS. > > Also, don't forget that every PCI-based Power Macintosh could be forced > into OpenFirmware. People have designed elegant applications to run in this > very minimal but powerful environment. What is that? First I've read of it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 23 20:42:36 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 21:42:36 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <5B34918A-9974-428F-A38D-7F5D2EBD7E13@neurotica.com> On Jun 22, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: ... > 2: Analog computers ... > I heavily, heavily try to stay away from stuff with keyboards > and video screens and, even worse, anything with an > "operating system" of any sort! I don't want to have anything > to do with installing software. I want to solder tube sockets, > read meters, turn knobs, and watch scope traces. This is far from "classic", but have you seen the AD538 from Analog Devices? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 23 21:13:12 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 22:13:12 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706232114.14153.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706230611.l5N6Bgmf009606@floodgap.com> <200706232114.14153.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200706232213.12791.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 23 June 2007 21:14, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 23 June 2007 02:11, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > I do remember a true command-line environment for C program > > > > development on the Mac. I believe Apple's came with one. There were > > > > probably others, maybe Manx. "Programmer's Workbench" comes to mind, > > > > but I'm not sure if that's it. > > > > > > The full name was "Macintosh Programmer's Workshop" It let you use *nix > > > style development tools such as yacc, patch and grep, and gave you a > > > CLI to the compilers and linkers. Also, the colon *was* the internal > > > path seperator for the Mac, just like / in *nix and \ in MS-DOS. > > > > Also, don't forget that every PCI-based Power Macintosh could be forced > > into OpenFirmware. People have designed elegant applications to run in > > this very minimal but powerful environment. > > What is that? First I've read of it... Never mind, google answered that one... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jun 24 02:16:12 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 00:16:12 -0700 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 References: <0bb001c7b5f0$f59e76d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <467E1A3B.B1A1C6AA@cs.ubc.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > > >> > The First Off-the-Shelf Microcomputer > >> Errrr.... wasn't that the PET 20001 ? > > For a sutiable definition of miucrocomputer [1] I'd claim the honour goes > > to the HP9830, about 5 years earlier. > > Tony, was the HP9830 a computer you could enter a shop and exit with one > on the arms? > > I think the better definition of a "off-the-shelf" puter is a puter you > can enter a shop, buy a system, bring it home. No special questions, > training or instalation needed. And this should be a complete computer, > something you would turn-on and use. Maybe the definiton of "off-the-shelf" > is too vague > > Greetz > Alexandre The 9830 may fail on issues of affordability and (hence) availability & popularity, but I'm with Tony on this, it was every bit as much an 'appliance computer' as the later machines being discussed (Apple II, TRS80, PET). One piece, plug it in, turn it on, and you have a BASIC prompt. Put in a cassette, type LOAD and RUN (or press the LOAD key IIRC, I forget if there was a single LOAD&RUN command/key). One can argue over various criteria for 'firsts', but in general the 9830 seems to be an overlooked/underrepresented machine in these sorts of assessments. Perhaps the lack of a CRT-type display results in it not being recognised for what it is. (The 9830 was the first machine I used/learned on (high school, mid-70s). I asked a long-time math teacher about it at a high school open house a couple of years ago and was told it was thrown out some where around the mid-80s. I still have the thermal-paper printout of the game of "Animals" I wrote for it.) From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jun 18 13:24:29 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:24:29 -0300 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <01C7B1BC.CF9D29A0@MSE_D03> -----------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 13:50:40 -0400 (EDT) From: der Mouse Subject: Re: What are the really unusual or weird computers? > It is too bad Windows and the PC group didn't continue the > OpenFirmware concept. [...] It was a bad move that has cost > millions if not billions of dollars worth of lost productive time. I think having an OS that crashes weekly - daily, or worse, in many cases - and needs a complete ground-up reinstall at least annually has cost their customers far more. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ------------------Reply: I usually ignore the MS- and WIN-bashing that is apparently a basic requirement for anyone wishing to be taken seriously in the computing field, but just for the record: My main system has been running Win98SE more or less 24/7 since it was released and although the hardware has been upgraded several times it has never had a ground-up reinstall (although I will do one Real Soon Now). Yes, although a BSOD is a very rare event, it does misbehave occasionally but that's not surprising considering all the obscure software that has been installed on it over the years. I have never lost any data (except as a result of my own carelessness) and except for a couple of virus incidents all that's required when it does misbehave is a reboot while I get a cup of coffee. My clients' systems with much more stable software environments are even more reliable and any problems are almost always hardware or operator related; even monthly crashes would not be tolerated for long. If your system crashes daily or even weekly, I'd recommend that you find a qualified computer professional to fix it for you... mike From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 02:32:59 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 03:32:59 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <01C7B1BC.CF9D29A0@MSE_D03> References: <01C7B1BC.CF9D29A0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> M H Stein wrote: > If your system crashes daily or even weekly, I'd recommend that you > find a qualified computer professional to fix it for you... If you write *any* code at all on Windows, you can expect to crash the OS fairly regularly. I've written *Java* code that ran *in the VM* that crashed the OS. And don't tell me not to write buggy code, everyone has a bug or two in their initial revision. I've never crashed a UNIXy OS with anything short of a hardware problem. Peace... Sridhar From cc at corti-net.de Sun Jun 24 05:46:11 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 12:46:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Q-Bus core memory In-Reply-To: <467CC2B1.90609@bitsavers.org> References: <467CC2B1.90609@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Al Kossow wrote: >> For the Q-bus, I don't even know if any core memories exist. > There was a 4k quad board for the original 11/03, but that was > long dead by the time the T11 came out. I have a 11/03 with two 4k core memory boards. It also has a QBus->Unibus converter for a RK11D. Christian From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jun 24 06:38:46 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:38:46 -0400 Subject: Multithreaded hardware In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 23 Jun 2007 12:05:03 PDT." <467D6EDF.4010205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200706241138.l5OBckR7029888@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > The CDC 6000 series used a 10 way multithreaded architecture > > virtualized as 10 independent 12-bit processors for I/O. No > > interrupts necessary there either. But then, back in 1964, I don't > > know if the word "multithreaded" had been invented yet. > >This also apparently appears in the Honeywell 1800. Need to dig out >info on that. I knew the TX-2 and Xerox Alto implemented multiple >hardware contexts. I'm pretty sure Mark Smotherman covers this on >his site, which Brad mentioned a day or two ago. I believe the Symbolics 3600 has support for multiple tasks in hardware at the microcode level. Unfortunately internals of the 3600 are hard to come by, but I keep digging. (I found someone the other day who worked on a "lisp risc machine" FPGA at Symbolics. He says he may have some tapes... :-) -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jun 24 06:49:06 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:49:06 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jun 2007 03:32:59 EDT." <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706241149.l5OBn6XT000616@mwave.heeltoe.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >I've never crashed a UNIXy OS with anything short of a hardware problem. heh. you haven't tried hard enough :-) I remember fooling around with sockets on a vax 780 running BSD4.2 (MORE BSD) and running a little program and hearing everyone yell from their offices, "hey! what just happened?" that's when I first learned about kernel panics. The Mt. Xinu guys told me "the only things that have really been tested are the parts Joy needed". Makes sense. (Joy = Bill Joy) Anyone have a source tape for Mt. Xinu MORE/BSD for vax? [having said that, linux these days is extremely robust] -brad From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jun 24 07:11:05 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 09:11:05 -0300 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org> <575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com> <467CD94D.2030406@oldskool.org><575131af0706230828x237e489fyf6bf3f017b2e0be9@mail.gmail.com> <467DBBD4.2040803@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <0d1b01c7b659$3cfe6cc0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > In that case, I second GI's 10-bit processor, already mentioned as being > notable as the guts of a Mattel Intellivision. THIS is weird! I couldn't figure yet how to use normal EPROMs for doing a multicart for this thing. Crazy architeture :oP From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun Jun 24 09:59:55 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 10:59:55 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467C3E34.25751.7430FDFA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467BFABF.1923.73298102@cclist.sydex.com>, <467C63CC.6080504@jetnet.ab.ca> <467C3E34.25751.7430FDFA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <467E86EB.60103@nktelco.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Speaking of 1 bit oddities, does anyone on the list collect PDP-14s > or even PDP-16s? Just curious. I have the processor boards and some I/O from a PDP-14, but alas no chassis or backplane. I also have the documentation and paper tapes of the development environment for the PDP-8: BOOL-14, PAL-14, and SIM-14. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 24 11:10:57 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 12:10:57 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> References: <01C7B1BC.CF9D29A0@MSE_D03> <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706241210.57382.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 24 June 2007 03:32, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > > If your system crashes daily or even weekly, I'd recommend that you > > find a qualified computer professional to fix it for you... > > If you write *any* code at all on Windows, you can expect to crash > the OS fairly regularly. I've written *Java* code that ran *in the > VM* that crashed the OS. And don't tell me not to write buggy code, > everyone has a bug or two in their initial revision. > > I've never crashed a UNIXy OS with anything short of a hardware > problem. Writing your own kernel driver (or using bad 3rd party ones), or doing stupid things as root can do it pretty well too. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 24 11:44:02 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 10:44:02 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706241210.57382.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <01C7B1BC.CF9D29A0@MSE_D03> <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> <200706241210.57382.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <467E9F52.3060501@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Writing your own kernel driver (or using bad 3rd party ones), or doing > stupid things as root can do it pretty well too. That can be expected. With windows XP here -- upgrading the latest hardware update for my sound card works great, if I want NO sound at all. > Pat But thinking about it, the only really unusual computers are experimental ones. How many commercial trinary computers do you know of? Even decimal machines are almost forgotton about. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 24 11:58:15 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 11:58:15 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467EA2A7.9010607@yahoo.co.uk> Liam Proven wrote: > What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* machines > that folks have seen? In terms of architecture, I suppose systems in which the guts were essentially serial in nature (such as the Elliott 803) seem quite alien these days - and weren't there a few Russian systems around way back which worked with trinary rather than binary logic at the core? Parallel systems in any form are probably worth a mention, too, even if the users' perspective is usually just bashing out some code to run on them via a more conventional system (Sun, PC, whatever). In terms of cosmetic design, I'd have to give credit to systems which were completely integral to the desk at which the user sat (HP 250, BCL SUSIE etc.) In more recent times, did Sun ever manage to get a CPU running which directly executed JAVA bytecode? (by recent I mean ten or so years ago now probably... I remember futzing around with one of their Javastations back then, but I believe they were just a conventional CPU and the true "Java chip" was still in the design phase - I'm not sure if it ever left) The various set-top boxes that I've seen have been pretty darn quirky too, at least in terms of HCI (and as a demonstration in cost-cutting!). I'm yet to see a good one. At least some of the Acorn models would actually boot a full OS though given a bit of hacking (I seem to recall being able to kludge a Zip drive onto them for storage) From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 13:05:42 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:05:42 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706241210.57382.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <01C7B1BC.CF9D29A0@MSE_D03> <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> <200706241210.57382.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <467EB276.4020602@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 24 June 2007 03:32, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> M H Stein wrote: >>> If your system crashes daily or even weekly, I'd recommend that you >>> find a qualified computer professional to fix it for you... >> If you write *any* code at all on Windows, you can expect to crash >> the OS fairly regularly. I've written *Java* code that ran *in the >> VM* that crashed the OS. And don't tell me not to write buggy code, >> everyone has a bug or two in their initial revision. >> >> I've never crashed a UNIXy OS with anything short of a hardware >> problem. > > Writing your own kernel driver (or using bad 3rd party ones), or doing > stupid things as root can do it pretty well too. I *rarely* login as root. I learned that lesson the hard way. And yes, I've crashed a system while testing kernel code, but I've managed to crash Windows as a non-privileged user on many, many occasions. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 13:07:30 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:07:30 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467E9F52.3060501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C7B1BC.CF9D29A0@MSE_D03> <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> <200706241210.57382.pat@computer-refuge.org> <467E9F52.3060501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <467EB2E2.4050103@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > But thinking about it, the only really unusual computers > are experimental ones. How many commercial trinary computers > do you know of? Even decimal machines are almost forgotton > about. Current-production IBM mainframes can still process decimal. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 24 13:25:27 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:25:27 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 23, 2007, at 6:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Their software is pretty unusual, but there's nothing that weird >> about >> the hardware, is there? > > Not anymore, with the change to PowerAS some years back. The original > AS/400s were more odd in the hardware sense. > > The whole concept of single level storage is amazing in that works > at all. I've heard little tidbits about it, but nothing very detailed...can you describe it when you have a moment? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 24 13:28:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:28:15 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <575131af0706221605r41594de3s87549b42a202121f@mail.gmail.com> <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <5CFD68C3-E391-4DC4-AD19-BB1CFADFDC65@neurotica.com> On Jun 23, 2007, at 6:57 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Well this is clearly a problem. I consider myself to be a person >> having pretty general experience with technology, and I've never even >> heard of this stuff...but it sounds very interesting to me. Perhaps >> what is needed is a way to "get the word out". Pictures, >> descriptions, educational materials...YOU know about this stuff, but >> who else does? I'd love to learn about it. > > Contact one of the elevator installers and see if they would sell you > an old relay control system, ripped out of a building undergoing a > rebuild. That's an interesting idea. How physically massive is such a system likely to be? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 24 13:32:48 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:32:48 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467DC355.9020205@brutman.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> <467DC355.9020205@brutman.com> Message-ID: <02FCFCB8-4BFF-4EC2-A2C4-90D010B08A7D@neurotica.com> On Jun 23, 2007, at 9:05 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >>> Their software is pretty unusual, but there's nothing that weird >>> about >>> the hardware, is there? >> Not anymore, with the change to PowerAS some years back. The original >> AS/400s were more odd in the hardware sense. >> The whole concept of single level storage is amazing in that works >> at all. > > Even the current PPC hardware is not 'standard' .. there are some > extensions to support the single level store. 'Tagged > pointers' (ie: pointers marked as trusted by the OS) are the single > biggest oddity that I can think of, and that requires hardware > support. > > Sadly, the AS/400 line (iSeries) is slowly dying off ... IBM can't > market it's way out of a paper bag, and the 'cash cow' status the > machine has had has caused it to fall too far behind. Last year I found myself digging around in the job market. As most people know, there's just not much technical work in Florida compared to other areas, so I was running scared for a while. One thing I noticed is that all the AS/400-related jobs in the whole damn world seem to be here. I figured that was because of their extensive use in the health care industry, and while Florida's reputation for being filled to overflowing with retirees is inaccurate, it's not entirely unfounded. I wonder how quick those types of places will be to abandon their AS/400 gear once IBM EOLs it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Jun 24 12:40:38 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 18:40:38 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jun 2007 11:58:15 CDT." <467EA2A7.9010607@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200706241740.SAA20090@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > serial in nature (such as the Elliott 803) seem quite alien these days - and > weren't there a few Russian systems around way back which worked with trinary > rather than binary logic at the core? SETUN, prototype 1957, about 50 produced. The original one was finally taken out of service in 1975 after 17 years reliable use. The design was followed by the SETUN-70 of which one survives, apparently. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From aijones2 at bsu.edu Sun Jun 24 13:51:09 2007 From: aijones2 at bsu.edu (ajones) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:51:09 -0400 Subject: Multithreaded hardware (LispMs) Message-ID: <467EBD1D.3020405@bsu.edu> > > Message: 29 > Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:38:46 -0400 > From: Brad Parker > Subject: Re: Multithreaded hardware > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <200706241138.l5OBckR7029888 at mwave.heeltoe.com> > > I believe the Symbolics 3600 has support for multiple tasks in hardware > at the microcode level. Unfortunately internals of the 3600 are hard to > come by, but I keep digging. > > (I found someone the other day who worked on a "lisp risc machine" FPGA at > Symbolics. He says he may have some tapes... :-) > > -brad > Symbolics last hardware products used a sort of lisp-machine-on-a-chip developed for use inside ATM networking gear (AT&T, maybe?). I think that may be what the "Zora" was. Google's not being very helpful on this one. My memory's not that good, and whatever I originally read was apocryphal at best. I could be wrong, but I think the NXP1000 (the final, headless workstation) used a similar chipset after the other project fizzled. The only relevant link I can find is http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/zora/zora.html If you find out anything interesting from your acquaintance with the tapes, you had better post it. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 24 14:00:37 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:00:37 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <02FCFCB8-4BFF-4EC2-A2C4-90D010B08A7D@neurotica.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> <467DC355.9020205@brutman.com> <02FCFCB8-4BFF-4EC2-A2C4-90D010B08A7D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070624190038.63B67BA447E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 23, 2007, at 9:05 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >>> Their software is pretty unusual, but there's nothing that weird > >>> about > >>> the hardware, is there? > >> Not anymore, with the change to PowerAS some years back. The original > >> AS/400s were more odd in the hardware sense. > >> The whole concept of single level storage is amazing in that works > >> at all. > > > > Even the current PPC hardware is not 'standard' .. there are some > > extensions to support the single level store. 'Tagged > > pointers' (ie: pointers marked as trusted by the OS) are the single > > biggest oddity that I can think of, and that requires hardware > > support. > > > > Sadly, the AS/400 line (iSeries) is slowly dying off ... IBM can't > > market it's way out of a paper bag, and the 'cash cow' status the > > machine has had has caused it to fall too far behind. > > Last year I found myself digging around in the job market. As > most people know, there's just not much technical work in Florida > compared to other areas, so I was running scared for a while. One > thing I noticed is that all the AS/400-related jobs in the whole damn > world seem to be here. I figured that was because of their extensive > use in the health care industry, and while Florida's reputation for > being filled to overflowing with retirees is inaccurate, it's not > entirely unfounded. > > I wonder how quick those types of places will be to abandon their > AS/400 gear once IBM EOLs it. Well, almost all of them have probably been migrating the same code from hardware to hardware for two decades already now. I have some appreciation for how the abstractions were done to make this possible. But: Literally, you could drop an AS/400 into my basement, along with all the software and all the manuals, and I would find myself unable to use it. I am that completely incapable of working in that architecture or (even worse) corporate mindset. Obviously lots of people do useful work in it all the time, but my quote-highly-trained-mind-unquote is simply unable to adjust to that mindset. I have written useful assembly code for 1802's, where any register can be the program counter. I have microcoded for AMD bit-slice. I have built my own logic devices out of vacuum tubes and relays. I have rewritten hairy device driver modules for hardware with bizarre undocumented side-effects on real-time OS's running $10Billion peripherals. I eventually figured out that to shut down a Windows box, you click on Start (that was a very tough hurdle for me - you'd be surprised!) Yet I cannot, and probably will never be able to, use an AS/400 application succesfully. The stumbling blocks for me are really that enormous. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 24 14:04:06 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:04:06 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467D9DE6.8020305@bitsavers.org> References: <467D9DE6.8020305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0EC22DDB-7401-4DFD-B17B-95A88940A656@neurotica.com> On Jun 23, 2007, at 6:25 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I thought I had seen your name in the output of the > > "kudos" word on my G5. > > I should be in the hidden credits (ie. the 'cat in the hat' picture) > from the first PCI PowerMacs until Apple abandoned PPC in 2005. Most impressive! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 24 14:13:37 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:13:37 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706231752.NAA00922@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200706231752.NAA00922@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <566A3554-EC2A-480F-9D00-9625CE556BD1@neurotica.com> On Jun 23, 2007, at 1:50 PM, der Mouse wrote: >> It is too bad Windows and the PC group didn't continue the >> OpenFirmware concept. [...] It was a bad move that has cost >> millions if not billions of dollars worth of lost productive time. > > I think having an OS that crashes weekly - daily, or worse, in many > cases - and needs a complete ground-up reinstall at least annually has > cost their customers far more. Well...Once crashed, shame on them. Twice (sixty-thrice?) crashed, shame on YOU. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Jun 24 15:18:16 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:18:16 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070624190038.63B67BA447E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> <467DC355.9020205@brutman.com> <02FCFCB8-4BFF-4EC2-A2C4-90D010B08A7D@neurotica.com> <20070624190038.63B67BA447E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <467ED188.2010209@brutman.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Well, almost all of them have probably been migrating the same code > from hardware to hardware for two decades already now. I have > some appreciation for how the abstractions were done to make this > possible. But: > > Literally, you could drop an AS/400 into my basement, along with all the > software and all the manuals, and I would find myself unable to use it. > I am that completely incapable of working in that architecture or > (even worse) corporate mindset. Obviously lots of people do useful > work in it all the time, but my quote-highly-trained-mind-unquote > is simply unable to adjust to that mindset. > > I have written useful assembly code for 1802's, where any register > can be the program counter. I have microcoded for AMD bit-slice. > I have built my own logic devices out of vacuum tubes and relays. > I have rewritten hairy device driver modules for hardware with bizarre > undocumented side-effects on real-time OS's running $10Billion peripherals. > I eventually figured out that to shut down a Windows box, you click on Start > (that was a very tough hurdle for me - you'd be surprised!) > Yet I cannot, and probably will never be able to, use an AS/400 > application succesfully. The stumbling blocks for me are really > that enormous. > > Tim. > > I think that your brethern in the computer world who need to process customer data would find your world incomprehensible as well. But I don't see what pointing out your inability to use this particular system adds to the discussion. You would be lost on any system with a user interface! From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 14:31:51 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:31:51 -0500 Subject: Q-Bus core memory In-Reply-To: References: <467CC2B1.90609@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <624966d60706241231k4f3591b3xbe33c7ae671e33c6@mail.gmail.com> That would be the RKV11-D if DEC made it. I know some people that upgraded them from 16 to 18 bie addressind to work on 11/23's. Paul Anderson On 6/24/07, Christian Corti wrote: > > On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > >> For the Q-bus, I don't even know if any core memories exist. > > There was a 4k quad board for the original 11/03, but that was > > long dead by the time the T11 came out. > > I have a 11/03 with two 4k core memory boards. It also has a > QBus->Unibus converter for a RK11D. > > Christian > From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Jun 24 15:37:05 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:37:05 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <467ED5F1.70709@brutman.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I've heard little tidbits about it, but nothing very detailed...can > you describe it when you have a moment? > > -Dave Single Level Store: - The operating system and all user processes share a single large address space. - There is no filesystem: every database table, user profile, etc. is addressed by a pointer in this very large address space. This seems insane, but it works. There are a few things that make it work better: - database tables, user profiles, etc. are all well defined data structures. They are referred to 'objects', although I don't really think it is object oriented. - There is a lot of pointer checking going on to prevent overruns and accessing data that isn't yours. - Pointers are 'tagged' by the operating system to indicate if they are legitimate (ie: blessed by the OS and secure). If a user somehow manages to change a pointer in a non-blessed way, the 'tag' is lost. The old 48 bit CISC architecture (IMPI) was quite a weirdy compared to modern architectures. The current 64 bit PowerPC based processors are much more 'normal' looking. The 'Advanced/36' was the first use of a 64 bit PowerPC based AS/400. Kind of funny to think about. :-) Mike From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 24 14:40:31 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:40:31 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <5CFD68C3-E391-4DC4-AD19-BB1CFADFDC65@neurotica.com> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <5CFD68C3-E391-4DC4-AD19-BB1CFADFDC65@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200706241540.31678.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 24 June 2007 14:28, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 23, 2007, at 6:57 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Well this is clearly a problem. I consider myself to be a > >> person having pretty general experience with technology, and I've > >> never even heard of this stuff...but it sounds very interesting to > >> me. Perhaps what is needed is a way to "get the word out". > >> Pictures, descriptions, educational materials...YOU know about > >> this stuff, but who else does? I'd love to learn about it. > > > > Contact one of the elevator installers and see if they would sell > > you an old relay control system, ripped out of a building > > undergoing a rebuild. > > That's an interesting idea. How physically massive is such a > system likely to be? It depends on the controller. Ones I've seen have ranged from about 30"L x 30"W x 60"H, to 8'L x 3'W x 8'H. The "power supply" and "I/O device" are usually a bit bigger. :) (For those that don't know, elevators usually use a DC motor, and at least for ones that are old enough to use relay-driven controllers, use a AC/DC motor-generator set or rotary converter to produce the power.) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 24 14:46:17 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:46:17 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <0EC22DDB-7401-4DFD-B17B-95A88940A656@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200706241946.l5OJkLOv035118@keith.ezwind.net> Then there was the 1940's vintage links trainer I worked on when at the Navy TD school Millingon Tn. Now that was a hoot working on that old thing. But it was far from a computer, but it did spin around and buck up and down based on control movements and could simulate a stall for the controled crashes it would accept as a landing. It did a good job of plotting your ground movement on a big chart table and the instructor could dial in a cross wind. We all had to go through ground school using it, before we were allowed to work on it. Then the USMC assigned me to an F4j Phantom flight sym in Beaufort SC, and other than a small TTL upgrade for the ECM and stand off weapons stuff, it was all Analog! Even the RIO's backseat display was connected to a a ntsc vodeo camera flying over a 30" sq hunk of microfilm where altitude controled the camera zoom to keep the image in scale, and ground speed servos moved the camera. All engine and flight charictics were controled by 6L6 tube driven servo motors, mechanically connect to gear boxes driving banks of 10 to 50 turn helopots, to kept it in the air so to speek. We had had monthly calibration partys when we changed the driver tubes on a rotation basis. But it worked and flew well. till later Bob From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 24 15:12:31 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:12:31 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 24 Jun 2007 03:32:59 -0400. <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <467E1E2B.6030404 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > If you write *any* code at all on Windows, you can expect to crash the > OS fairly regularly. I've written code on a Windows box since 1996-ish and have only crashed my machine once due to my code and that was because I fed bogus data to a beta 3D driver. I second what Mike Stein said: if your Windows computer is crashing on you regularly, stop fucking it up and get a professional to come in and fix it for you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 15:15:44 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:15:44 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <5CFD68C3-E391-4DC4-AD19-BB1CFADFDC65@neurotica.com> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <575131af0706221605r41594de3s87549b42a202121f@mail.gmail.com> <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <5CFD68C3-E391-4DC4-AD19-BB1CFADFDC65@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > That's an interesting idea. How physically massive is such a > system likely to be? As Patrick pointed out, they vary - complexity and age are the variables. On the last day of RCS/RI in the old mill, we finally managed to get into the old elevator control shack. It looked like it was from 1930 or so. Basically, a panel the size of a house door controlled a simple four floor, mostly-automatic, non-motorized-door, freight elevator. Of course, the relays were not the little ice cubes we are familar with, but really rather large open frame things. Serious overkill on soze, but not as bad as the railroad relays. -- Will From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 24 15:03:48 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:03:48 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706221714w4a47de60v45a9b966a10c15b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0706221714w4a47de60v45a9b966a10c15b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467ECE24.90509@yahoo.co.uk> Liam Proven wrote: > On 23/06/07, Tony Duell wrote: >> > What else was there? What other machines - general-purpose desktop (or >> > desk-side or whatever) computers were there that Thought Differently? >> > I'm not really thinking of embedded systems and the like here, but >> > thinks you sat in front of and worked upon. >> >> How about , the 3 Rivers PERQ. [...] > > Fascinating - thanks for that, Tony! > > I've read about PERQs but I've never seen one; I don't believe I know > anyone who has one. They seem "reasonably" common in the UK, in that I'd guesstimate at 30-40 survivors (but it's hard to get a handle on how many 3a's might be lurking - but then they're not really a PERQ anyway :-) Not sure what the picture's like elsewhere in the world, but those sorts of numbers aren't bad for a system that's reasonably bulky and (to my knowledge) never sold in huge numbers anyway. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 24 15:41:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:41:55 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <467E74A3.2911.7CD5A2D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jun 2007 at 14:12, Richard wrote: > I've written code on a Windows box since 1996-ish and have only > crashed my machine once due to my code and that was because I fed > bogus data to a beta 3D driver. I second what Mike Stein said: if > your Windows computer is crashing on you regularly, stop fucking > it up and get a professional to come in and fix it for you. Hmmm. I write code for kernel-mode device drivers and I can proudly claim to have crashed Windows (any version) in less time than it takes to boot same. :) Repeatedly. Ad nauseum. A dozen times an hour. This is where I'm thankful for the "Checked build" versions. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 24 15:50:57 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:50:57 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467ECE24.90509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi The Nicolet 1080 is a core memory machine with a 20 bit data word. It can address 64Kx20 but can only have program in the first 32K. They were only know to come in 12Kx20 and 24Kx20 that I know of. I doubt that even a thousand were made because it was a specialized lab machine, very few remain today. I only know of 4 still in existance today. 3 here on the west coast and one in the UK. Of these, only mine and the one in the UK are know to be operational. The two others could most likely be made to run but they are future projects for their owners. They had one nice feature to their BASIC and that is that it had built in matrix operations. Things like cross multiply and such. Collecting documents and software has been an experience. I got some paper tape software from Austria and some good manuals with schematics from Australia. Salam Ismail, that also has one, had a nice pile of paper tapes and some early documents that helped to get it debugged. There is still a chance that there may be more out there. I keep an eye out. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! http://mobile.msn.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 24 12:48:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 18:48:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <467E1A3B.B1A1C6AA@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 24, 7 00:16:12 am Message-ID: > One can argue over various criteria for 'firsts', but in general the 9830 > seems to be an overlooked/underrepresented machine in these sorts of I am still wondering why the IBM5100 gets regarded as a significant machine when the HP9830 was a couple of years ealier and had a very similar specificiation. I was pleased to see that the BT 'Connected Earth' site gives the HP9830 a fleeting metion as being the first personal computer. > assessments. Perhaps the lack of a CRT-type display results in it not being > recognised for what it is. Maybe. I think it's a bit of a strange requirement, though. Incidentally, I forgot to mention in my last message that there are a couple of websties with useful information on this machine. http://www.hpmuseum.org/ has some nice pictures of the machine, including one with the cover removed http://www.hpmuseum.net/ has some pdfs of scanned manuals available, including the user manual, service manual (boardwapper guide mostly), schematics, etc. Both for the machine, and peripherals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 24 12:39:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 18:39:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <0bb001c7b5f0$f59e76d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at Jun 23, 7 08:47:36 pm Message-ID: > > >> > The First Off-the-Shelf Microcomputer > >> Errrr.... wasn't that the PET 20001 ? > > For a sutiable definition of miucrocomputer [1] I'd claim the honour goes > > to the HP9830, about 5 years earlier. > > Tony, was the HP9830 a computer you could enter a shop and exit with one > on the arms? Well, I don't think HP had any shops, and it's not the sort of thing that would haev been sold in, say, electronics shops. But you could certainly order one from HP, and it would be shopped to you. > > I think the better definition of a "off-the-shelf" puter is a puter you > can enter a shop, buy a system, bring it home. No special questions, > training or instalation needed. And this should be a complete computer, RIght. Let me tell you the 'installation' procedure for a 9830. Open the packing box. Remove the machine, manual, and mains lead (power cord to you?). Place the machine on your desk. Check the voltage selector switches are set correctly for your mains (knowing HP, they'll be set right for the country it was sold in, but it doesn't hurt to check ;-). Plug the mains lead into the back of the machine. Plug the other end of the mains lead into the wall. Turn on the swtich at the front of the keyboard. A few seconds later, you get a prompt. It's normally called a 'lazy T', and looks like |-, but it's one chracter. At that point, you can either type in a calculation, using normal infix notation, and hit 'Execute', at which point the machine evaluates it and displayes the answere, or you can type in lines of BASIC, pressing STORE after each one. Or put a tape in the internal tape drive and LOAD a program from that. There is nothing to configurem nothing to put together. It worked right out of the box. About the only thing you didn't get as standard was a printer, but you could buy an HP9866 printer which was designed to sit on top of the machine. The interface for that was built-in, you just plugged a cable (supplied with the printer IIRC) between the 2 units. There was even a mains output socket on the 9830 so you didn't have to run a separate mains lead back to the wall. The BASIC was somewhat cut-down, there were no string variables, for example. But you could get add-on ROM modules to add string variables, low-level I/O (essential if you wanted to link it to other devices), matrix operations, etc. There were 3 internal ROM expansion slots, and 5 'external' ones under a flap on the left side. About the only piece of bad design is that the internal and external ROM modules are not mechanically or electrically compatible, although the ROM chips themselves are the same and contain the same code. If you wanted to link it to other devices, HP sold various interfacs for it. There were 4 slots for those on the back, but I think there was an optional expansion unit too. Among the interfaces was the 11202 8 bit parallel, used for linking up paper tape punches and readers, etc, the 11203 BCD interface to take readings from digital instruments, the 11205 half-dulex serial interface for serial printers, etc, the 11206 bit-banged modem interface (also RS232), the 11284 datacoms interface (a nice hardware-intensive asynbc and sync interface), 11336 printer interface,. There was also an HPIB interface, but I can't rememebr the model number of that. So you _could_ expand the machine, but you didn't have to. It worked as soon as you plugged it in, it had a keyboard, display (1 line, 32 characters) and storage (digital tape drive) as standard. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 24 12:24:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 18:24:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <01C7B1BC.CF9D29A0@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Jun 18, 7 03:24:29 pm Message-ID: > If your system crashes daily or even weekly, I'd recommend that you > find a qualified computer professional to fix it for you... If that phrase means what it means over here, then I doubt you could find anyone on this list who knew _less_ about computing that a 'qualified computer professional' ;-) -tony From richard.smith at mewgull.com Sun Jun 24 16:12:23 2007 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:12:23 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > If your system crashes daily or even weekly, I'd recommend that you >> find a qualified computer professional to fix it for you... > >If that phrase means what it means over here, then I doubt you could find >anyone on this list who knew _less_ about computing that a 'qualified >computer professional' ;-) Any you are probably running Windows so you just have to accept the frequent crash as 'normal' Richard From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 24 16:12:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:12:07 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467ED5F1.70709@brutman.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, , <467ED5F1.70709@brutman.com> Message-ID: <467E7BB7.12435.7CF149D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jun 2007 at 14:37, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > - The operating system and all user processes share a single large > address space. > > - There is no filesystem: every database table, user profile, etc. is > addressed by a pointer in this very large address space. I assume that along with this go the usual virtual-memory features as well as address-space protection. I couldn't imagine this being done in unprotected non-paged non-virtual memory hardware, but there's a first time for everything. OTOH, CDC was doing this on the STAR operating system in the late 60's/early 70's. There's a certain luxury to having a 48-bit addressing space. Running file I/O through the pager, although easy to program seemed to me to be less than optimal; fortunately, we also had traditional double-buffered I/O calls available. Cheers, Chuck > > > This seems insane, but it works. There are a few things that make it > work better: > > - database tables, user profiles, etc. are all well defined data > structures. They are referred to 'objects', although I don't really > think it is object oriented. > > - There is a lot of pointer checking going on to prevent overruns and > accessing data that isn't yours. > > - Pointers are 'tagged' by the operating system to indicate if they are > legitimate (ie: blessed by the OS and secure). If a user somehow > manages to change a pointer in a non-blessed way, the 'tag' is lost. > > > The old 48 bit CISC architecture (IMPI) was quite a weirdy compared to > modern architectures. The current 64 bit PowerPC based processors are > much more 'normal' looking. > > The 'Advanced/36' was the first use of a 64 bit PowerPC based AS/400. > Kind of funny to think about. :-) > > > Mike > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 24 16:59:09 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467E7BB7.12435.7CF149D2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, , <467ED5F1.70709@brutman.com> <467E7BB7.12435.7CF149D2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706242203.SAA27708@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> - The operating system and all user processes share a single large >> address space. >> - There is no filesystem: every database table, user profile, etc. >> is addressed by a pointer in this very large address space. > I assume that along with this go the usual virtual-memory features as > well as address-space protection. I couldn't imagine this being done > in unprotected non-paged non-virtual memory hardware, but there's a > first time for everything. I can. Consider something like a Lisp Machine: a strongly typed language that doesn't have any way to construct arbitrary hardware-level objects. (If you were to use a real Lisp Machine, you'd have to do away with, or at least make privileged, the subprimtives that allow constructing arbitrary lispvals.) I'd prefer a paged VM environment for doing general-purpose work in, but it's certainly not necessary. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Jun 24 18:31:36 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:31:36 -0600 Subject: Wanted: IBM PC Engineering Change documentation In-Reply-To: <200706242203.SAA27708@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, , <467ED5F1.70709@brutman.com> <467E7BB7.12435.7CF149D2@cclist.sydex.com> <200706242203.SAA27708@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <467EFED8.5070309@brutman.com> I'm looking for the "IBM Personal Computer Family Service Information Manual". This gem is supposed to have engineering changes for all of the products in the family, but my 2nd revision version seems to be missing 100 or so pages of Chapter 19, where those changes are described. I ordered a new one from IBM directly, which had the same problem. I suspect that the 2nd revision document excised a lot of them due to to them not being relevant/current. If you have an earlier version of this document, please drop me a line - I'd like to find out how complete your version is. If you have ECs documented in another documented, I'd love to hear about that too. Thanks, Mike From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Jun 24 15:02:21 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Joshua Alexander Dersch) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:02:21 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> References: <01C7B1BC.CF9D29A0@MSE_D03> <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sridhar Ayengar writes: > If you write *any* code at all on Windows, you can expect to crash the OS > fairly regularly. I've written *Java* code that ran *in the VM* that > crashed the OS. And don't tell me not to write buggy code, everyone has a > bug or two in their initial revision. I beg to differ. I've developed code primarily on NT-based Windows for over ten years now in a variety of languages for a variety of purposes and not ONCE have I managed to write userland code that was capable of causing a hard-stop (BSOD, freezing). In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the ONLY crashes I've gotten over the last ten years have been due to terrible 3rd party drivers (Creative's drivers for the SBLive were notoriously bad, and for awhile around the win2k timeframe, nVidia's drivers were TERRIBLE on multiproc systems). This is unfortunate, but these problems have since been resolved and these days I can't even recall the last BSOD I've gotten. If you're honestly crashing the OS fairly regularly (esp. w/Java code) then I'd definitely suggest investigating the STOP code you're getting, and checking your hardware out for faults. And update your drivers. Either that or stop running Windows 95 :). I realize it's par for the course on a list like this to bash anything Microsoft, but I think the "it crashes ALL THE TIME" argument is no longer valid. It's not like there aren't plenty of other complaints to make :). - Josh From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Jun 24 16:18:30 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:18:30 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <575131af0706221605r41594de3s87549b42a202121f@mail.gmail.com> <20070623121528.73A16BA4474@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <5CFD68C3-E391-4DC4-AD19-BB1CFADFDC65@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1182719910.32099.6.camel@elric> On Sun, 2007-06-24 at 16:15 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > That's an interesting idea. How physically massive is such a > > system likely to be? > > As Patrick pointed out, they vary - complexity and age are the variables. > > On the last day of RCS/RI in the old mill, we finally managed to get > into the old elevator control shack. It looked like it was from 1930 > or so. Basically, a panel the size of a house door controlled a simple > four floor, mostly-automatic, non-motorized-door, freight elevator. Of > course, the relays were not the little ice cubes we are familar with, > but really rather large open frame things. Serious overkill on soze, > but not as bad as the railroad relays. I used to fit microwave links onto the tops of tall multi-storey buildings. The lift controllers I saw tended to run from a small rack the size of a MicroVAX 3300, up to several wardrobe-size racks full of relays. Gordon From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 24 17:46:49 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:46:49 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <467EF459.3000504@bitsavers.org> > I assume that along with this go the usual virtual-memory features as > well as address-space protection. I couldn't imagine this being done > in unprotected non-paged non-virtual memory hardware Systems in a single address space have been implemented using a strongly-typed language. Mesa, for example, on the Xerox Star, which had many active 'threads' in a single address space with protection enforced by the language. Obviously, these languages don't support unchecked memory access though pointers. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 24 18:03:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:03:25 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <1182719910.32099.6.camel@elric> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com>, , <1182719910.32099.6.camel@elric> Message-ID: <467E95CD.29924.7D572D26@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jun 2007 at 22:18, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I used to fit microwave links onto the tops of tall multi-storey > buildings. The lift controllers I saw tended to run from a small rack > the size of a MicroVAX 3300, up to several wardrobe-size racks full of > relays. Let's not forget interesting control systems in other devices, such as jukeboxes (Seeburg used core memory, I believe), scoreboards and combination actions in pipe organs. Cheers, Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jun 24 18:59:06 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 20:59:06 -0300 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com><467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com><467C0967.2070405@gmail.com><467DC355.9020205@brutman.com><02FCFCB8-4BFF-4EC2-A2C4-90D010B08A7D@neurotica.com> <20070624190038.63B67BA447E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <005901c7b6bb$b702c4a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I eventually figured out that to shut down a Windows box, you click on > Start > (that was a very tough hurdle for me - you'd be surprised!) The start key on your car is also used to shutdown ;o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jun 24 19:00:41 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:00:41 -0300 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> <467DC355.9020205@brutman.com> <02FCFCB8-4BFF-4EC2-A2C4-90D010B08A7D@neurotica.com><20070624190038.63B67BA447E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <467ED188.2010209@brutman.com> Message-ID: <006e01c7b6bc$7cb65720$f0fea8c0@alpha> From: "Michael B. Brutman" > I think that your brethern in the computer world who need to process > customer data would find your world incomprehensible as well. But I > don't see what pointing out your inability to use this particular system > adds to the discussion. You would be lost on any system with a user > interface! Don't be brut, man :o) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Jun 24 20:22:58 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 19:22:58 -0600 Subject: IBM CursorPad 6093-011 In-Reply-To: <467EFED8.5070309@brutman.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, , <467ED5F1.70709@brutman.com> <467E7BB7.12435.7CF149D2@cclist.sydex.com> <200706242203.SAA27708@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <467EFED8.5070309@brutman.com> Message-ID: <467F18F2.8090303@brutman.com> This is an old RS/6000 attachment. I'm looking for a pinout and a protocol description, hopefully to make use of it again. If it's undocumented and unusable except on an RS/6000 I'll make it available on VCM. Thanks, Mike From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jun 24 19:35:29 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:35:29 -0700 Subject: Massbus simulation In-Reply-To: References: <46786776.40809@bitsavers.org> <4678DBB9.5060502@gmail.com> <33EA437C-9370-4869-A874-5C73BEC68CC9@neurotica.com> <46794F32.3040508@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <467F0DD1.1060505@shiresoft.com> Just to let folks know, I've completed the major component selection for the design. I'm currently entering those components into EagleCAD. The UI for EagleCAD to do this isn't the most friendly, so it'll probably take me a few more days before I get them all entered (I've entered 2 today...most of it was remembering how to do it...but it's still not fun). Here are the current specs (subject to change of course!): * Two board solution (main board and i/f specific daughter board) * Single IDE disk interface * USB for getting disk images on/off the controller (from the PC it will look like a USB disk) * RS-232 serial port for managing the controller (selecting what images are mounted on which "drives" and the type of drive) * single massbus (or unibus) interface via a daughter board capable of emulating the full complement of devices * code (both uC and FPGA) will be capable of being field updated in place (ie through the USB i/f...no special connectors) * on board EEPROM contains config information across power cycles I'm currently over designing this a bit but the parts I've selected are still allowing me to come in at my (self-imposed) price targer. I'm not saying what that is now, because once you add all of the other "little bits" (Rs, Cs, Crystals, connectors, etc) the cost can inflate quite a bit. :-( It also looks like this will be a 4-layer PCB, so I don't know what the cost of that will be (yet). Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/20/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > an RH750 is a single >> > card (no backplane required), with a simple cable arrangement from the >> > 11/750 backplane to the I/O bulkhead area... one could even just run a >> > trio of 40-pin cables between the 11/750 backplane and the new device, >> > and bypass "real" Massbus cables). > >> The plan is (because real massbus connectors are so hard to find) to use >> 3 40 pin ribbon cables (aka the in-cabinet massbus cabling) to go >> between the controller (RH11, RH70, RH750, RH780, etc) and what I'm >> building. That still allows for using an external massbus cable >> arrangement if one so desires. > > Sounds exactly what I had envisioned. Must be the obvious thing to do. > >> I'm in the process of redesigning my website. As part of that I'll put >> up more details on "legacy disk emulator". > > Excellent. Can't wait. > > -ethan > > -- TTFN - Guy From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jun 24 19:37:07 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 20:37:07 -0400 Subject: Multithreaded hardware (LispMs) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:51:09 EDT." <467EBD1D.3020405@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <200706250037.l5P0b7cF031615@mwave.heeltoe.com> ajones wrote: >> >Symbolics last hardware products used a sort of lisp-machine-on-a-chip >developed for use inside ATM networking gear (AT&T, maybe?). I think >that may be what the "Zora" was. Google's not being very helpful on >this one. My memory's not that good, and whatever I originally read was >apocryphal at best. > >I could be wrong, but I think the NXP1000 (the final, headless >workstation) used a similar chipset after the other project fizzled. > >The only relevant link I can find is >http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/zora/zora.html If I had to guess that's an Ivory chip running on a multibus. The Ivory chip was the last real lisp which made it into production hardware. That's the chip used in the XL1200 and the macintosh nubus based machines. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jun 24 19:49:31 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 20:49:31 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:46:17 EDT." <200706241946.l5OJkLOv035118@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200706250049.l5P0nVdk032516@mwave.heeltoe.com> 1 "Bob Bradlee" wrote: > >Then there was the 1940's vintage links trainer I worked on when at the Navy T >D school Millingon Tn. Now >that was a hoot working on that old thing. But it was far from a computer, but > it did spin around and buck >up and down based on control movements and could simulate a stall for the cont >roled crashes it would >accept as a landing. It did a good job of plotting your ground movement on a b >ig chart table and the >instructor could dial in a cross wind. We all had to go through ground school >using it, before we were >allowed to work on it. I was recently in Corning NY and had a few hours to kill before my flight left. There is an *excellent* war plane museum next to the airport. [link to cctalk? huh? :-)] And in it were some very old and not so old flight simulators/trainers. One looked like it was some sort of 16 bit machine. I think it was made by Links (spelling?). I should have taken notes - I will next time. I was thinking it would be fun to fire up some day. Rows of 19" racks. I wanted to jump over the ropes and turn it on but the "docent" would probably ha ve had a heart attack. (we did have an absolutely amazing conversation about the origin of strobe lights and how the folks at Corning helped create them and get them installed along the final into east Berlin. It involved glass from Corning and a metal finish from some company in New Jersey. Somehow I suspect Doc Edgerton was envolved in that...) >But it worked and flew well. well, that's what counts :-) I've yet to fly a simulator which I can look out of over left wing and figure out if I'm level. But I have never been to flightsafty yet... -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 20:07:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:07:31 -0400 Subject: Q-Bus core memory In-Reply-To: <624966d60706241231k4f3591b3xbe33c7ae671e33c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <467CC2B1.90609@bitsavers.org> <624966d60706241231k4f3591b3xbe33c7ae671e33c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/24/07, Paul Anderson wrote: > That would be the RKV11-D if DEC made it. I know some people that upgraded > them from 16 to 18 bie addressind to work on 11/23's. I have an RKV11D and plenty of 11/23 hardware. Is the "upgrade" any more complicated than running the extra address bits over the main cable, or does it take extra wire/components? -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 24 20:07:34 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:07:34 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467E95CD.29924.7D572D26@cclist.sydex.com> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <1182719910.32099.6.camel@elric> <467E95CD.29924.7D572D26@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706242107.35316.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 24 June 2007 19:03, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Jun 2007 at 22:18, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > I used to fit microwave links onto the tops of tall multi-storey > > buildings. The lift controllers I saw tended to run from a small rack > > the size of a MicroVAX 3300, up to several wardrobe-size racks full of > > relays. > > Let's not forget interesting control systems in other devices, such > as jukeboxes (Seeburg used core memory, I believe), scoreboards and > combination actions in pipe organs. I happened to wander into a church in Manhattan one time several years back (probably around 1976 or 1977 I'm guessing) and heard what at first I thought was the trains running underneath Park Avenue, though that also struck me as being pretty unlikely. Turned out they were installing a new organ "system", and what I'd heard was them testing the 32' pedal stops! There were two consoles, one up front by the altar and one up in the choir loft, each of which ran signals over a single coaxial cable to a roomful of equipment that was hidden away well. Sounds were generated by a combination of pipes for some voices, and electronics for others. And yes, it did use core memory for storing the presets on each combination piston. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 20:17:45 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 18:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: IBM PC Engineering Change documentation In-Reply-To: <467EFED8.5070309@brutman.com> Message-ID: <630301.56485.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Not for anything, but isn't the proper nomenclature "engineering change order", or ECO? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 24 20:26:50 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 18:26:50 -0700 Subject: flexowriter patent Message-ID: <467F19DA.6010607@bitsavers.org> stumbled upon this looking for something else at uspto.gov http://bitsavers.org/frieden/flexowriter/Patent_2700446_Jan55.pdf From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 21:14:30 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:14:30 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706242107.35316.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <1182719910.32099.6.camel@elric> <467E95CD.29924.7D572D26@cclist.sydex.com> <200706242107.35316.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <467F2506.5090409@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I happened to wander into a church in Manhattan one time several years back > (probably around 1976 or 1977 I'm guessing) and heard what at first I thought > was the trains running underneath Park Avenue, though that also struck me as > being pretty unlikely. Turned out they were installing a new organ "system", > and what I'd heard was them testing the 32' pedal stops! Why unlikely? I have a buddy on the East Side, and I've heard the Lex trains going by from his second floor apartment. They're not far underground. Only a few feet. Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 21:28:28 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 19:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <652356.77881.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> "I am still wondering why the IBM5100 gets regarded as a significant machine when the HP9830 was a couple of years ealier and had a very similar specificiation." In a word - exposure. HP stuff is oftentimes a tad esoteric for the *usual* goofy collector or whatever you call peeps who are into this stuff. > assessments. Perhaps the lack of a CRT-type display results in it not being > recognised for what it is. "Maybe. I think it's a bit of a strange requirement, though." Yes, and a real man's puter has toggle switches and nixie displays anyway LOL. "http://www.hpmuseum.org/" Very well done site, a little hard to find certain information though (for me anyway). > Tony, was the HP9830 a computer you could enter a shop and exit with one > on the arms? Truthfully, how does this arise as a criteria? What about units (that appeared later) with integral 12" CRT's. Cuz the average chick or many dudes even couldn't tuck it under their arm and go on their merry way, does that make it any less a *personal* computer? If it won't crush the desk beneath it, I'd say that qualifies it as a pc. > I think the better definition of a "off-the-shelf" puter is a puter you > can enter a shop, buy a system, bring it home. No special questions, > training or instalation needed. And this should be a complete computer, Again ancillary terminology is being introduced. Who says a pc has to be "off the shelf" in the sense that you can reach up and pull one down. Expressing availability as "off the shelf" seems a bit arbitrary. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Jun 24 21:44:27 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 03:44:27 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com><467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org><575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com><467CD94D.2030406@oldskool.org> <575131af0706230828x237e489fyf6bf3f017b2e0be9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003801c7b6d2$c0c28770$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>> I don't think that a PC in an unusual form factor counts as >>>genuinely weird, different or interesting! >> A "portable" computer with everything-and-the-kitchen-sink included >>isn't different or interesting?.... > Well, to be honest, no! I have to agree. A PC is a PC no matter how it's packaged....and therefore pretty uninteresting. TTFN - Pete. From g at kurico.com Sun Jun 24 21:49:50 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:49:50 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <005901c7b6bb$b702c4a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com><467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com><467C0967.2070405@gmail.com><467DC355.9020205@brutman.com><02FCFCB8-4BFF-4EC2-A2C4-90D010B08A7D@neurotica.com> <20070624190038.63B67BA447E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <005901c7b6bb$b702c4a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <467F2D4E.7000403@kurico.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I eventually figured out that to shut down a Windows box, you click >> on Start >> (that was a very tough hurdle for me - you'd be surprised!) > > The start key on your car is also used to shutdown ;o) But not everyone calls it a "start key". I think it's typically referred to as the ignition key. Even cars with start buttons are turned off by "turning off the ignition" vs "pressing the start button while the car is running". Have to admit though, there are a gazillion metaphors in gui's today that make no sense (like the vast majority of items in the "file" menu of many applications) that M$ is not directly responsible for. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 22:09:04 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 20:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <003801c7b6d2$c0c28770$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <684229.40352.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >>> I don't think that a PC in an unusual form > factor counts as > >>>genuinely weird, different or interesting! > > >> A "portable" computer with > everything-and-the-kitchen-sink included > >>isn't different or interesting?.... > > > Well, to be honest, no! > > I have to agree. A PC is a PC no matter how it's > packaged....and therefore > pretty uninteresting. 26 years after *it's* inception, I guess that's often the consensus. But what was so *interesting* about a TRS-80 model 1 for that matter? Or so many other items found in people's collections. And what exactly is the definition of "PC". Is a Victor 9000 a "PC"? What about a Mindset? Or even a Peanut? It isn't fair or even logical to run down or exclude items with significant Intel makeups simply because it's become the dominant platform these days. Is a Lisa or a Mac so totally interesting due to the fact that it's captured a significantly smaller portion of the market? What if Macs or any number of other units had "taken over". Wouldn't we then look upon them as disinteresting? So few have any clue as to the weirder dual processor boxes that were offered in only in Japan. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 24 22:18:16 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:18:16 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706250049.l5P0nVdk032516@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200706250318.l5P3IKJG055587@keith.ezwind.net> On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 20:49:31 -0400, Brad Parker wrote: >I've yet to fly a simulator which I can look out of over left wing and >figure out if I'm level. But I have never been to flightsafty yet... We had frosted windows and spotlights with rotating filters that changed speed along with the airspeed so it looked light you wer fliying in a cloud with wisps flying by. There was a big fire bell on the back of the headrest that went off if/wen you crashed. later Bob From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 24 22:27:40 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:27:40 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467F2506.5090409@gmail.com> References: <467BFDA4020000370000892D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <200706242107.35316.rtellason@verizon.net> <467F2506.5090409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706242327.40809.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 24 June 2007 22:14, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I happened to wander into a church in Manhattan one time several years > > back (probably around 1976 or 1977 I'm guessing) and heard what at first > > I thought was the trains running underneath Park Avenue, though that > > also struck me as being pretty unlikely. Turned out they were installing > > a new organ "system", and what I'd heard was them testing the 32' pedal > > stops! > > Why unlikely? I have a buddy on the East Side, and I've heard the Lex > trains going by from his second floor apartment. They're not far > underground. Only a few feet. I found a fairly comprehensive site on the subway system a while back that surprised me in many ways, full of all sorts of data, historical stuff, etc. and realized that. But this wasn't the subway, it was the commuter trains, which are somewhat further down. It was also quite a large church, and fairly substantial, and set back from the street a bit (St. Ignatius, if you're curious, at Park & 76th, if I'm remembering right). You couldn't ordinarily hear those trains while standing out on Park Ave., the vents being in the middle of the street in that divider they have there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jun 24 22:32:49 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:32:49 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org> <575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com> <467CD94D.2030406@oldskool.org> <575131af0706230828x237e489fyf6bf3f017b2e0be9@mail.gmail.com> <003801c7b6d2$c0c28770$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <00bf01c7b6d9$81d61d40$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ensor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:44 PM Subject: Re: What are the really unusual or weird computers? > > I have to agree. A PC is a PC no matter how it's packaged....and therefore > pretty uninteresting. > > > TTFN - Pete. Seen one mainframe you seen them all, sound the same to you? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 24 23:12:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:12:47 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706250049.l5P0nVdk032516@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: >, <200706250049.l5P0nVdk032516@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <467EDE4F.26949.7E7266B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jun 2007 at 20:49, Brad Parker wrote: > And in it were some very old and not so old flight simulators/trainers. > One looked like it was some sort of 16 bit machine. I think it was made > by Links (spelling?). Probably Singer-Link, very big in flight simulators. Cheers, Chuck From steve at radiorobots.com Sun Jun 24 23:56:40 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 00:56:40 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706250049.l5P0nVdk032516@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200706250049.l5P0nVdk032516@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <467F4B08.6050007@radiorobots.com> "Link Trainer" after Edwin Link. Steve Brad Parker wrote: > 1 > "Bob Bradlee" wrote: > >>Then there was the 1940's vintage links trainer I worked on when at the Navy T >>D school Millingon Tn. Now >>that was a hoot working on that old thing. But it was far from a computer, but >>it did spin around and buck >>up and down based on control movements and could simulate a stall for the cont >>roled crashes it would >>accept as a landing. It did a good job of plotting your ground movement on a b >>ig chart table and the >>instructor could dial in a cross wind. We all had to go through ground school >>using it, before we were >>allowed to work on it. > > > I was recently in Corning NY and had a few hours to kill before my flight > left. There is an *excellent* war plane museum next to the airport. > > [link to cctalk? huh? :-)] > > And in it were some very old and not so old flight simulators/trainers. > One looked like it was some sort of 16 bit machine. I think it was made > by Links (spelling?). I should have taken notes - I will next time. I > was thinking it would be fun to fire up some day. Rows of 19" racks. I > wanted to jump over the ropes and turn it on but the "docent" would > probably ha ve had a heart attack. > > (we did have an absolutely amazing conversation about the origin of > strobe lights and how the folks at Corning helped create them and get > them installed along the final into east Berlin. It involved glass from > Corning and a metal finish from some company in New Jersey. Somehow I > suspect Doc Edgerton was envolved in that...) > > >>But it worked and flew well. > > > well, that's what counts :-) > > I've yet to fly a simulator which I can look out of over left wing and > figure out if I'm level. But I have never been to flightsafty yet... > > -brad From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Jun 25 00:05:24 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 06:05:24 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com><467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org><575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com><467CD94D.2030406@oldskool.org><575131af0706230828x237e489fyf6bf3f017b2e0be9@mail.gmail.com><003801c7b6d2$c0c28770$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <00bf01c7b6d9$81d61d40$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <014101c7b6e6$707b4a90$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >> I have to agree. A PC is a PC no matter how it's packaged....and >>therefore pretty uninteresting. > Seen one mainframe you seen them all, sound the same to you? OK, I thought I'd quoted enough of the original message...? If I said "An IBM PC/clone is an IBM PC/clone no matter...." would that be any clearer? :-) And yes, with precious few exceptions, seen one IBM PC/clone seen them all! TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Jun 25 00:38:44 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 06:38:44 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <684229.40352.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014601c7b6eb$19733960$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > 26 years after *it's* inception, I guess that's often >the consensus. But what was so *interesting* about a >TRS-80 model 1 for that matter? The fact that it's "different/unique", which is probably true of the majority of interesting machines in most people's collections. The problem with PCs/clones, for me at least, is that they're all pretty much the same - seen one, seen them all.... >....And what exactly is the definition of "PC".... I think it was pretty clear that the OP and I were using "PC" to refer to the IBM PC and it's clones. >....What if Macs or any number of other units had "taken >over". Wouldn't we then look upon them as disinteresting? Well, quite frankly, yes. One of the main reasons I collect computers is to learn about about different architectures and operating systems, etc. There's nothing different or interesting about the umpteenth identical PC clone.... TTFN - Pete. From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Jun 24 20:32:43 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Joshua Alexander Dersch) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:32:43 -0400 Subject: House cleaning -- (mostly) free hardware available in the Seattle area... Message-ID: Moved into a new house and in the process realized I have a ton of computer stuff that I haven?t so much as looked at in the past several years. Figured you guys might get more use out of it than I have been. This stuff is free unless otherwise noted. Local pickup in the Seattle area ONLY. Anything leftover will be put on Craigslist in a week or so. Computers: - IBM POWERServer 560. Large MCA-based RS/6000 machine. From memory, it?s got a 50Mhz POWER Cpu, 128mb of RAM. No hard drive. I have an IBM-branded internal SCSI CD-ROM to go with it but no mounting rails. 10/100 ethernet, thicknet ethernet and some sort of FDDI card. Runs AIX 5.1 better than I thought it would. - IBM POWERServer 350. Small (ha) MCA-based RS/6000 machine, desktop sized. 64MB ram, no drive. Thicknet ethernet. - AT&T 3B2 1000/60. 16mb ram, 60MB tape, 350MB SCSI drive. Works, but has been scavenged for parts (missing most EPORTS cards, no dummy plates to replace them). - TRS-80 Data Terminal. Have not tested. A dumb terminal that looks like a Model III :). - HP 9000/236 w/Monitor. Missing ?S? key. Works but reports a floppy controller error on startup. I?d like $25 for this. - Sparcstation 10, dual 40Mhz SuperSparc, 64mb ram. - SGI Personal Iris 4D/35, for parts only ? has no ram or drives, I have no idea if what's in there works. A little bit of rust on the chassis. Ugh. - PowerMac 6100/60 and PowerMac 6100/66. Work, but ugly and probably the worst PowerMacs ever made. What a ringing endorsement! - Commodore Pet 8032. I?d like to get $50 for this, or an interesting trade. Someone did a nasty job replacing a RAM chip which involved seriously burning the PCB and replacing several traces with bits of wire. Amazingly it seems to work fine. Obviously no guarantees :). Laptops: - Tandy 1400HD and Tandy1400LT. No idea if they work, no AC adapter. - ?Leadman? 386, I seem to recall this had 4mb ram and an 80mb drive. AC adapter. - 2x Toshiba Tecra 750CDT, parts only ? both have odd keyboard failures, may be repairable. - 2x AST Ascentia 800n. 50Mhz 486, 8mb ram. Only 1 AC adapter. - 2x Zenith Data Systems SuperSport. 8088, 640k ram, 20mb hard disk, 720k floppy. These worked the last time I used them but I can?t for the life of me find the AC adapters. Monitors: - Apple III monochrome monitor (green phosphor). Decent shape, but has ?GRJC? spraypainted on the top (it was from Grand Rapids Junior College). Small scratch in the glare-proof coating. Works. - Commodore 1702 monitor. Works great, missing fold-out cover over the adjustment knobs in front. - Moniterm Viking 22? B&W monitor, with Mac NuBus adapter to drive it. If I recall it does 1280x1024 at 60Hz. It may be possible to hook a Sun mono framebuffer to it if it?ll do the right refresh rate. Worked last time I used it, but the picture was a bit jumpy from time to time. If you need more details on any of these, don?t hesitate to contact me. Thanks! - Josh From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 01:41:24 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 01:41:24 -0500 Subject: Q-Bus core memory In-Reply-To: References: <467CC2B1.90609@bitsavers.org> <624966d60706241231k4f3591b3xbe33c7ae671e33c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <624966d60706242341u1fbba077j4e55d1f888eddf4b@mail.gmail.com> Hi Ethan, Can I call you on this? Also,are you going to Purdue? Thanks, Paul On 6/24/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 6/24/07, Paul Anderson wrote: > > That would be the RKV11-D if DEC made it. I know some people that > upgraded > > them from 16 to 18 bie addressind to work on 11/23's. > > I have an RKV11D and plenty of 11/23 hardware. Is the "upgrade" any > more complicated than running the extra address bits over the main > cable, or does it take extra wire/components? > > -ethan > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 07:05:11 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 05:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" SCSI interface hard drives Message-ID: <225298.4830.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> >From what I have heard, they did make 8" SCSI interface hard drives (possibly a Seagate Sabre?), but I was thinking about it the other day, and now I'm not so sure. I have never seen one, nor have I heard of one "in captivity". So - do they exist? -Ian From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 25 08:11:14 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:11:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <005901c7b6bb$b702c4a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> dont forget you can also shutdown windows by pressing Control+Alt+Delete and selecting "shut down". Not sure how long that feature has been in windows, but its definately in Windows 2K. - Andrew B (via mobile phone) Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I eventually figured out that to shut down a Windows box, you click on >> Start >> (that was a very tough hurdle for me - you'd be surprised!) > The start key on your car is also used to shutdown ;o) From austin at ozpass.co.uk Mon Jun 25 09:01:13 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:01:13 +0100 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. Message-ID: I picked up a Silicon Graphics Crimson at the weekend. It?s in working order and the skins are in rather good nick as well. Unfortunately, at some point in the past it has had sticky tape wrapped around it, presumably to prevent the front access door from opening whilst it was transported. This has (predictably) left sticky bands around the computer. I was wondering what the most appropriate solvent might be to remove this crud, given that the skins themselves are some form of plastic. Thanks in advance! -Austin. From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jun 25 09:12:52 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:12:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Ancient HP resources Message-ID: <11734831.1182780773163.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> My classic computer interests primarily center around early-to-mid 1970s DEC Unibus systems and peripherals. In my computer center I have a couple 1970-72 vintage Hewlett Packard X-Y plotters, an HP7202A and an HP7210A. In college back in the 70s we had an HP7200A, which is pretty much identical to the HP7202A except that the 7202A will support 100, 150, and 300 baud, while the 7200A only supports 100 baud. I am going to hook up the 7202A plotter to my PDP-11/40. It appears to support both 20mA and EIA (RS232) connections. I'd like to connect it to my M7814 20mA DZ11. Currently the only device connected to my 20mA DZ11 is an ASR-33 teletype. All other terminals (DecScopes, DecWriters, VT05, VT100, etc) are connected to the M7819 EIA DZ11. Does anyone here know of anyone who has worked with these kinds of plotters, connecting them to either a PDP-11 or an HP minicomputer? They were made to work in-line with an ASR-33, or they could be used somewhat like a printer, where you could send simple ASCII commands like PLTL for "Plot Line" or PLTP for "Plot Points", and then you would send it X,Y coordinates like "0001,0500". Back in the old days, we used programs like HPPLOT.BAS to do the plotting, and we had a program called CHGEN.BAS to generate characters so we could label our plots. I have these programs loaded on my PDP-11/40. Are there forums for classic HP hardware such as this, where I could get in touch with others who may have experience connecting these devices to my ancient minicomputer? I have Googled and there is not much info out on the web that I can find. Some info is on http://www.hpmuseum.net, but not much elsewhere. I have the User Manual and the Service Manual, as well as several pieces of marketing material on these plotters. Pictures of the plotter can be found at: http://www.woffordwitch.com/HP7202.asp Thanks in advance for any info or advice that anyone might be able to offer. Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 25 09:19:30 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <566A3554-EC2A-480F-9D00-9625CE556BD1@neurotica.com> References: <200706231752.NAA00922@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <566A3554-EC2A-480F-9D00-9625CE556BD1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200706251423.KAA07926@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I think having an OS that crashes weekly - daily, or worse, in many >> cases - and needs a complete ground-up reinstall at least annually >> has cost their customers far more. > Well...Once crashed, shame on them. Twice (sixty-thrice?) crashed, > shame on YOU. ;) Oh, agreed. *I* don't run it! And, to address some others' comments - yes, Windows's stability has gotten better. It's now almost as good as the VMS and Unix I worked with in the late '80s. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From classiccmp at discordance.org.uk Mon Jun 25 09:33:09 2007 From: classiccmp at discordance.org.uk (Adrian Burgess) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:33:09 +0100 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <4676A37C.2040000@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4676A37C.2040000@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20070625143308.GA886@discordance.org.uk> On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 04:23:40PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Nintendos use ARM/Xscale, and so does the Playstation Portable. Sony > Playstations are mostly MIPS. > The PSP isn't ARM architecture, it has two MIPS CPUs - both R4000s or similar AFAIK. -- From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Mon Jun 25 09:34:12 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 09:34:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Austin Pass wrote: > I picked up a Silicon Graphics Crimson at the weekend. > > It?s in working order and the skins are in rather good nick as well. > Unfortunately, at some point in the past it has had sticky tape wrapped > around it, presumably to prevent the front access door from opening whilst > it was transported. This has (predictably) left sticky bands around the > computer. > > I was wondering what the most appropriate solvent might be to remove this > crud, given that the skins themselves are some form of plastic. Greetings Austin, you lucky sod. WD40 is great for this. I'm not sure if you get it in the UK (I imagine so), but if not I'm sure you get CRC (is it 5.5 or 5.6 thats the WD40-alike? I forget, anyhow) - which works just as well. Spray in on, wait a couple seconds, wipe it off with the appropriate paper towel or flannel. Easy :) JP From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Mon Jun 25 08:40:00 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:40:00 +0100 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? Message-ID: <200706251440.00873.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Has anyone got any recommendations for PCB CAD software on Linux? I tried Eagle, which I'd heard a lot about, but found it to be utterly useless. Practically everything I tried to do resulted in a big pop-up box saying something to the effect of "This feature is disabled in the Light version", even things like moving pads on the grid. Gordon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 25 09:44:24 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:44:24 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <467FD4C8.6080505@jetnet.ab.ca> Andrew Burton wrote: > dont forget you can also shutdown windows by pressing Control+Alt+Delete ... Now if that *DON'T* work , I pull the plug! Is it me or does the latest version of windows crashes so you CAN'T shutdown. PS. I have power on switch set to shut off too. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jun 25 09:59:02 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? In-Reply-To: <200706251440.00873.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> References: <200706251440.00873.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Has anyone got any recommendations for PCB CAD software on Linux? Xcircuit for schematics: http://opencircuitdesign.com/xcircuit/ PCB for layout: http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Jun 25 10:01:37 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:01:37 -0700 Subject: 8" SCSI interface hard drives In-Reply-To: <225298.4830.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <225298.4830.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <467FD8D1.1060602@msm.umr.edu> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>From what I have heard, they did make 8" SCSI >interface hard drives (possibly a Seagate Sabre?), but >I was thinking about it the other day, and now I'm not >so sure. I have never seen one, nor have I heard of >one "in captivity". > >So - do they exist? > >-Ian > > MPI made SCSI adapters for all their 8" drives, though I don't know who used them in products. We had SCSI such as it was for all the sample drives we got in the early 80's up thru 86 from them. We made a SCSI adapter for their Sentinel 1/4" drive (for the division in Valley Forge where they made the tape drives). Dec had a weird interface that was SCSI, but they purposely screwed up the commands so that they were incompatable with common software and hardware and could not be plugged. Remember them? Jim From cheri-post at web.de Mon Jun 25 10:22:09 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:22:09 +0200 Subject: 8" SCSI interface hard drives Message-ID: <2065256104@web.de> Hello Ian, yes, 8 inch harddisk drives do exist with SCSI interface. Seagate produced the Sabre drives with SCSI interfaces with 360MB, 500MB, 1GB and 2GB. I suppose that they were made in the CDC/Imprimis facility, Seagate bought at the end of the 80's. These drives had sometimes a small console attached at the front, including an LCD-display! Apart from that, Fujitsu built interfaces in order to attach their ESMD drives to SCSI-interfaces. The drives then obtained the letters "KS" instead of "K" which stood for ESMD. I'm lucky to own such an interface, but I haven't had the time bring it back to life, as some electronic parts such as capacitors and resistors have been ripped off the PCB due to an excessive shock apparently. Does anybody knows, if other SCSI-drives with form factors greater than 5,25" had been built ? Regards, Pierre > > >From what I have heard, they did make 8" SCSI > interface hard drives (possibly a Seagate Sabre?), but > I was thinking about it the other day, and now I'm not > so sure. I have never seen one, nor have I heard of > one "in captivity". > > So - do they exist? > > -Ian > __________________________________________________________________________ Erweitern Sie FreeMail zu einem noch leistungsst?rkeren E-Mail-Postfach! Mehr Infos unter http://produkte.web.de/club/?mc=021131 From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jun 25 10:33:42 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:33:42 -0700 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? In-Reply-To: <200706251440.00873.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> References: <200706251440.00873.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <467FE056.5070803@shiresoft.com> Before switching to the Mac, I used EagleCAD on Linux (I now have the Mac version). Of course, I'm using the Professional version, so *everything* works. Although the UI can be a bit cantankerous (especially when you're trying to create new devices). :-) Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Has anyone got any recommendations for PCB CAD software on Linux? > I tried Eagle, which I'd heard a lot about, but found it to be utterly > useless. Practically everything I tried to do resulted in a big pop-up box > saying something to the effect of "This feature is disabled in the Light > version", even things like moving pads on the grid. > -- TTFN - Guy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 25 10:34:02 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:34:02 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: JP Hindin > > >On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Austin Pass wrote: > > I picked up a Silicon Graphics Crimson at the weekend. > > > > It?s in working order and the skins are in rather good nick as well. > > Unfortunately, at some point in the past it has had sticky tape wrapped > > around it, presumably to prevent the front access door from opening >whilst > > it was transported. This has (predictably) left sticky bands around the > > computer. > > > > I was wondering what the most appropriate solvent might be to remove >this > > crud, given that the skins themselves are some form of plastic. > > >Greetings Austin, you lucky sod. > >WD40 is great for this. I'm not sure if you get it in the UK (I imagine >so), but if not I'm sure you get CRC (is it 5.5 or 5.6 thats the >WD40-alike? I forget, anyhow) - which works just as well. > >Spray in on, wait a couple seconds, wipe it off with the appropriate paper >towel or flannel. Easy :) > >JP > Hi I'm not sure I'd spray WD40 on a SGI Crimson. You might remove more than tape gum. On typical hard surfaces, things like GooGone work well but this might not be good on your surface either. I'd try first using the tape method. Get a piece of the same or similar tape. Place it in the old gum and then remove it slowly. The tape will ofter pull up the older gum. Soemtimes, it works better if you let it stay in contact for a hour or so. Try to do experiments in a location that doesn't show. Any of the typical solvents can remove the nice surface of your Crimson, leaving a shiny metal instead. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Picture this ? share your photos and you could win big! http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From austin at ozpass.co.uk Mon Jun 25 10:38:40 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:38:40 +0100 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25/6/07 15:34, "JP Hindin" wrote: > Greetings Austin, you lucky sod. > > WD40 is great for this. I'm not sure if you get it in the UK (I imagine > so), but if not I'm sure you get CRC (is it 5.5 or 5.6 thats the > WD40-alike? I forget, anyhow) - which works just as well. > > Spray in on, wait a couple seconds, wipe it off with the appropriate paper > towel or flannel. Easy :) > > JP Thanks for the tip! And yes, I am a lucky sod. I also got two free octanes in minty condition on the same trip!! I'm assuming that you're referring to the synthetic penetrating oil WD40? If not I'm going to have a very slippery mess on my hands! ;-) Wanders off to try.... -Austin. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jun 25 10:47:42 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:47:42 +0100 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <467FE39E.2030707@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/06/2007 15:34, JP Hindin wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Austin Pass wrote: >> Unfortunately, at some point in the past it has had sticky tape wrapped >> around it, presumably to prevent the front access door from opening whilst >> it was transported. This has (predictably) left sticky bands around the >> computer. > WD40 is great for this. I'm not sure if you get it in the UK (I imagine > so), but if not I'm sure you get CRC (is it 5.5 or 5.6 thats the > WD40-alike? I forget, anyhow) - which works just as well. "White Spirit" or "turpentine substitute" will work as well, if not better. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jun 25 10:49:58 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:49:58 +0100 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <20070625143308.GA886@discordance.org.uk> References: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4676A37C.2040000@dunnington.plus.com> <20070625143308.GA886@discordance.org.uk> Message-ID: <467FE426.7040309@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/06/2007 15:33, Adrian Burgess wrote: > On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 04:23:40PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Nintendos use ARM/Xscale, and so does the Playstation Portable. Sony >> Playstations are mostly MIPS. >> > > The PSP isn't ARM architecture, it has two MIPS CPUs - both R4000s or similar AFAIK. So it does, I've just discovered. For some reason it's (wrongly) on the list of ARM/Xscale devices I made up a year or so ago, so I've obviously misread the model from some web site (odd, because most of the data I had came from ARM and MIPS websites). Thanks for the correction! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jun 25 10:52:43 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:52:43 +0200 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070625175243.3c236d55@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:01:13 +0100 Austin Pass wrote: > I was wondering what the most appropriate solvent might be to remove > this crud, given that the skins themselves are some form of plastic. Ethyl or isopropyl alcohol. If this does not help I try petroleum ether / benzine. (The stuff that is used in cigarette lighters.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Mon Jun 25 10:55:09 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:55:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > >WD40 is great for this. I'm not sure if you get it in the UK (I imagine > >so), but if not I'm sure you get CRC (is it 5.5 or 5.6 thats the > >WD40-alike? I forget, anyhow) - which works just as well. > >Spray in on, wait a couple seconds, wipe it off with the appropriate paper > >towel or flannel. Easy :) > I'm not sure I'd spray WD40 on a SGI Crimson. You might remove more > than tape gum. On typical hard surfaces, things like GooGone work well > but this might not be good on your surface either. Perhaps the plastics have changed over time - but I picked up a pile of Indigo2 MaxImpacts that were covered in masking tape and packing tape residue. The WD40 cleaned it up nicely, and three years later the I2 doesn't appear to have suffered adversely. No funny coloured spots, no changing in the colour depth, the plastic isn't tacky anywhere on it. Of course, as above, if the Crimsons are made of a different type of plastic, my observations are moot. JP From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 25 11:06:00 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:06:00 -0400 Subject: removing epoxy potting, etc. Message-ID: <200706251206.00299.rtellason@verizon.net> Just wondering, do any of you guys know of something that'll remove epoxy potting compounds? Only suggestion I've seen so far is some pretty nasty acid that I really don't want to mess with.... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From austin at ozpass.co.uk Mon Jun 25 11:13:28 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:13:28 +0100 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25/6/07 16:34, "dwight elvey" wrote: > Hi > I'm not sure I'd spray WD40 on a SGI Crimson. You might remove more > than tape gum. On typical hard surfaces, things like GooGone work well > but this might not be good on your surface either. > I'd try first using the tape method. Get a piece of the same or similar > tape. Place it in the old gum and then remove it slowly. The tape > will ofter pull up the older gum. Soemtimes, it works better if you > let it stay in contact for a hour or so. > Try to do experiments in a location that doesn't show. Any of the > typical solvents can remove the nice surface of your Crimson, leaving > a shiny metal instead. > Dwight The WD40 is on hold, as it appears I've lent out or disposed of mine. It's impossible to know what type of tape was used, other than it was quite wide and in place for rather a long time! When I do get hold of some WD40 tomorrow (GooGone doesn't seem to be available in the UK based on a cursory check) I'll test it on the rear of the "wheel covers" to ensure no lasting damage (should it prove too harsh.) I've sprayed it on and around ABS plastics in the past without any harm, however. As regards removing enough surface to reveal metal, that would probably take a strong sulphuric acid - these babies were made solid, and that includes the non-structural "skins". For each of the pieces I've removed, the thinnest I've found is 4mm. -Austin. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jun 25 11:20:29 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:20:29 +0100 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <467FE426.7040309@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4676A37C.2040000@dunnington.plus.com> <20070625143308.GA886@discordance.org.uk> <467FE426.7040309@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <467FEB4D.5080706@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/06/2007 16:49, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 25/06/2007 15:33, Adrian Burgess wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 04:23:40PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> Nintendos use ARM/Xscale, and so does the Playstation Portable. Sony >>> Playstations are mostly MIPS. >>> >> >> The PSP isn't ARM architecture, it has two MIPS CPUs - both R4000s or >> similar AFAIK. > > So it does, I've just discovered. For some reason it's (wrongly) on the > list of ARM/Xscale devices I made up a year or so ago, so I've obviously > misread the model from some web site (odd, because most of the data I > had came from ARM and MIPS websites). Aha, I've found out where the ARM info came from. According to ARM's website (dated late 2005), the PSP has an ARM 9 core and the Playstation 3 has an ARM9E. http://www.arm.com/markets/home_solutions/armpp/8732.html http://www.arm.com/markets/home_solutions/armpp/15672.html -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 25 11:21:50 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 09:21:50 -0700 Subject: removing epoxy potting, etc. Message-ID: <467FEB9E.6060504@bitsavers.org> > Just wondering, do any of you guys know of something that'll remove epoxy > potting compounds? Hot air gun and a knife. Depending on how much clay is in the potting compound it may need to be hot enough to melt solder. It obviously will melt anything made of soft plastic that was potted, including the outside of electrolytics. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 25 11:22:15 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:22:15 -0500 Subject: shipping (was: My sale or swap list (Update)) In-Reply-To: <467056ED.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D39022FDD@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <012801c7ad6c$f7b6e420$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <466FE7F6.7070806@gmail.com> <46702C62.4050505@gmail.com> <467056ED.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <467FEBB7.4010200@yahoo.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > My feeling if you realy want it ... shipping is not a problem. I'm going to need to do this at some point... I can't imagine it being *that* expensive, based on costs I've seen in the past for shipping cars around the world. My main worry is how the whole customs procedure works at the final port though; if everything needs to be itemised then it'll be a huge headache (particularly for things like spares for vintage machines, components etc.) There's a place quite close to here which claims to handle such things, so I'm going to give them a poke in the next couple of weeks and see how it all works... (sorry for late reply - I've been off-email for a couple of weeks so I'm just catching up with list traffic) From kth at srv.net Mon Jun 25 11:40:38 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:40:38 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <467FF006.8020906@srv.net> Andrew Burton wrote: > dont forget you can also shutdown windows by pressing Control+Alt+Delete and selecting "shut down". Not sure how long that feature has been in windows, but its definately in Windows 2K. - Andrew B (via mobile phone) > > Alexandre Souza wrote: > >>> I eventually figured out that to shut down a Windows box, you click on >>> Start >>> (that was a very tough hurdle for me - you'd be surprised!) >>> >> The start key on your car is also used to shutdown ;o) >> > > > If I push the start button on floorboard of my car to shut it down (I don't see any "Start key" anywhere), I'd expect a lot of ground gear metal in return, plus the need to replace the starter. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 11:44:16 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:44:16 +0100 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use stuff called "sticky stuff remover" from a uk diy chain some time ago a citrus based liquid (orange juice I reckon) or wd40 (test first) or alcohol (test) and recently just a rubber for a painted front panel (HP analyser) Dave Caroline On 6/25/07, Austin Pass wrote: > I picked up a Silicon Graphics Crimson at the weekend. > > It?s in working order and the skins are in rather good nick as well. > Unfortunately, at some point in the past it has had sticky tape wrapped > around it, presumably to prevent the front access door from opening whilst > it was transported. This has (predictably) left sticky bands around the > computer. > > I was wondering what the most appropriate solvent might be to remove this > crud, given that the skins themselves are some form of plastic. > > Thanks in advance! > > -Austin. > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 11:52:47 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:52:47 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467BCED9.19505.727E0566@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0792.9050704@mainecoon.com> <467BCED9.19505.727E0566@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706250952h1c73a311j4a865370d6b9c08c@mail.gmail.com> On 22/06/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The GI CP-1600 16-bit CPU had an architecture very similar to the PDP- > 11, but used a 10-bit instruction word. I think GI even marketed 10 > bit ROMs. These were used in various incarnations as the CPU in many > Activision consoles. Since a few people have picked up on this, I've done a bit of Googling. Everywhere seems to say that it was a fairly vanilla 16-bit CPU, it just had 10-bit opcodes, so Intellivision used 10-bit memory in the cartridges. 10 bits is a "deckle", apparently. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellivision << Intellivision was the first 16-bit game console, though some people have mistakenly referred to it as a 10-bit system because the CPU's instruction set and game cartridges are 10 bits wide. A 10-bit chunk of data is called a "decle". The registers in the microprocessor, where the mathematical logic is processed, were 16 bits wide. >> http://www.intellivisionlives.com/bluesky/hardware/intelli_tech.html#cpu << CPU The CPU is the General Instruments CP1610. This is a general purpose 16-bit microprocessor which has 1024 separate op-codes, and can equally well use 8-bit, 10-bit, 14-bit, and 16-bit RAM or ROM. The CP1610 in the Intellivision uses a machine cycle rate of 894.886 KHz. Individual operations on the 1610 take between 4 and 12 microcycles (Note: the CP1600 is the prototypical or conventional form of the microprocessor; the CP1610 used in the Intellivision is precisely the same in all respects except for a differing clock rate.) Since most 1610 instructions are 10-bits wide, game programs are stored in 10-bit wide ROMs. This 10-bit "byte" is referred to as a decle (rhymes with "heckle"). Some instructions require 16 bits; these are stored in two successive 10-bit locations, referred to as a bidecle. (For prototyping, dual 8-bit EPROMs are used, with the low 8 bits of each decle stored in one EPROM and the top 2 bits stored in the other.) >> And the fairly detailed overview at: http://intelliwiki.kylesblog.com/index.php/CP1610 -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 11:53:55 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:53:55 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467ED5F1.70709@brutman.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> <467ED5F1.70709@brutman.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706250953y74a218c8n340b9fcfb5cd15a7@mail.gmail.com> On 24/06/07, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Single Level Store: > > - The operating system and all user processes share a single large > address space. > > - There is no filesystem: every database table, user profile, etc. is > addressed by a pointer in this very large address space. > > > This seems insane, but it works. There are a few things that make it > work better: > > - database tables, user profiles, etc. are all well defined data > structures. They are referred to 'objects', although I don't really > think it is object oriented. > > - There is a lot of pointer checking going on to prevent overruns and > accessing data that isn't yours. > > - Pointers are 'tagged' by the operating system to indicate if they are > legitimate (ie: blessed by the OS and secure). If a user somehow > manages to change a pointer in a non-blessed way, the 'tag' is lost. > > > The old 48 bit CISC architecture (IMPI) was quite a weirdy compared to > modern architectures. Whooo! Now that is odd. Are there any emulators for these things knocking around, or are they still too commercial? -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 25 11:54:50 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 09:54:50 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. Message-ID: <467FF35A.4050502@bitsavers.org> > a citrus based liquid (orange juice I reckon) read the material safety data sheet for 'goo gone' the active ingredient isn't the citrus From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 11:56:49 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:56:49 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706241149.l5OBn6XT000616@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> <200706241149.l5OBn6XT000616@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706250956i7378851fp707e3598139aa6de@mail.gmail.com> On 24/06/07, Brad Parker wrote: > heh. you haven't tried hard enough :-) > > I remember fooling around with sockets on a vax 780 running BSD4.2 > (MORE BSD) and running a little program and hearing everyone yell > from their offices, "hey! what just happened?" > > that's when I first learned about kernel panics. Wow! What did that "little program" *do*? I learned to program Fortran on VAXes; I ran one for some years when I worked in the City of London. I have never ever seen a VAX crash. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Jun 25 12:00:33 2007 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:00:33 +0200 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070625170033.GO27862@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2007-06-25 15:01:13 +0100, Austin Pass wrote: > Unfortunately, at some point in the past it has had sticky tape wrapped > around it, presumably to prevent the front access door from opening whilst > it was transported. This has (predictably) left sticky bands around the > computer. Seems everybody has his/her own way to deal with it. My personal approach is to not use solvents. I've seen them too often to hurt the plastic parts. I for one use rubbers (think pencil and paper) to remove them. Please notice that there are basically two kinds of rubbers. Those with abrasive materials inside (glass or quartz powder) and those without. Use only the later ones! They're usually clear. (If you want to test your rubber, place it on some kind of metal and burn it with a torch or acetylene burner or the like. Those with quartz or glass powder inside will not burn completely.) This is a very non-invasive method of removing the rubber, though you'll feel your arms and fingers the other day... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Ich hatte in letzter Zeit ein bi?chen viel Realitycheck. the second : Langsam m?chte ich mal wieder weitertr?umen k?nnen. -- Maximilian Wilhelm (18. Mai 2006, #lug-owl.de) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 25 12:03:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:03:42 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <467F92FE.28813.2E08F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jun 2007 at 17:13, Austin Pass wrote: > The WD40 is on hold, as it appears I've lent out or disposed of mine. > > It's impossible to know what type of tape was used, other than it was quite > wide and in place for rather a long time! When I do get hold of some WD40 > tomorrow (GooGone doesn't seem to be available in the UK based on a cursory > check) I'll test it on the rear of the "wheel covers" to ensure no lasting > damage (should it prove too harsh.) I've sprayed it on and around ABS > plastics in the past without any harm, however. You might also try some lamp oil (paraffin oil/white kerosene). Slow evaporation, so you can leave it to soak. In the grand scheme of petroleum solvents, it's very mild, but has worked to remove tape adhesive for me. The triple-filtered "ultra-pure" stuff has practically no odor. Clean up any residue with detergent and water. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 25 11:52:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:52:17 -0500 Subject: Bitmap images In-Reply-To: <938407.43226.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <938407.43226.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <467FF2C1.3000806@yahoo.co.uk> Andrew Burton wrote: > Hi, i was reading up on bitmap (mainly .bmp, with some .wbmp) images > last night and was wondering why everything is stored backwards > (e.g. BGR instead of RGB and the bottom of the image first, instead > of the top)? I believe the backwards RGB quads* are just a hang-up from the fact that almost every platform which supported .bmp files used an Intel x86 (or compatible) CPU - and Intel's x86 processors store multi-byte values lowest-first. *Going from hazy memory, I seem to recall that colour map entries in .bmp files are four bytes: BGRx, with x being always set to zero. I can't remember if 24-bit direct-colour images also use four bytes per pixel or only three. No idea why the origin of the image was bottom-left rather than top-left, but there wasn't ever really a standard for this kind of thing (if MS Windows itself sets the origin at bottom-left then it certainly makes sense; .bmp was really only ever popular for MS-Windows, after all) > Also would i need to pay a license if i wrote a program to create .bmp > files? As far as I know, no. > My main aim is to write a .bmp to (amiga) .iff format Heh, the last time I wrote any .bmp handling code it was to do that the other way around, as I had a bunch of IFF files that I wanted to read on a Windows 3.1 box. , but would love to add > full .bmp support to an art program i wrote for the amiga and then stick it > online (on Aminet.com ) for other people to use if they wish. Obvious question: why .bmp? As above, it was only ever popular with MS Windows; in the rest of the world TIFF, PCX, or Targa support tended to be a lot more prominent. PCX and Targa seem to have fallen by the wayside these days, but TIFF is still alive and well, and of course PNG has come on the scene. If I were writing something to export data to an image format these days, I'd pick TIFF or PNG over MS-bitmap; certainly writing a TIFF encoder isn't too complex (writing a comprehensive decoder can get a little hairy due to all the vendor extensions, but writing something to handle the typical flavours isn't hard), and from what I hear PNG isn't too difficult to handle either. cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 12:10:20 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:10:20 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <00bf01c7b6d9$81d61d40$0b01a8c0@game> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467C5048.5040507@oldskool.org> <575131af0706221604paba91cew69ca545c0abc7ee2@mail.gmail.com> <467CD94D.2030406@oldskool.org> <575131af0706230828x237e489fyf6bf3f017b2e0be9@mail.gmail.com> <003801c7b6d2$c0c28770$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <00bf01c7b6d9$81d61d40$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <575131af0706251010m164c0bb0x570b6cf6093bbd32@mail.gmail.com> On 25/06/07, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ensor" > > > I have to agree. A PC is a PC no matter how it's packaged....and therefore > > pretty uninteresting. > > Seen one mainframe you seen them all, sound the same to you? > Not a valid comparison. That's like comparing all microcomputers and ignoring their vast diversity. If it runs IBM PC programs of its time period - whether that's Windows or Lotus 1-2-3 or whatever - then it's a PC. About the only time a PC compatible is interesting in architectural or design terms is if it's something like a BBC Master 512 - a 2nd processor in an alien computer connected over a CPU-to-CPU bus. Thus, there's some interest in hardware PC cards for the various Macs, in the add-in boards for the Acorn RISC PC (I have one here, if I ever get it working) and so forth. But basically, a PC compatible is a PC compatible. We've all seen a thousand of them. Who cares any more? They get marginally more fun to use if they're running an interesting OS. Me, I run Linux, because I have work to do and it networks with anything, drives almost any peripheral and so on. But I find BeOS and Syllable and QNX and AROS and so on much more *interesting*, simply because they are different. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 25 12:10:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:10:47 -0700 Subject: removing epoxy potting, etc. In-Reply-To: <200706251206.00299.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200706251206.00299.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <467F94A7.19908.34873A@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jun 2007 at 12:06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Just wondering, do any of you guys know of something that'll remove epoxy > potting compounds? > > Only suggestion I've seen so far is some pretty nasty acid that I really don't > want to mess with.... I've heard that soaking the workpiece in dimethylformamide will gradually soften cured resin, but the solvent's really nasty. A firm called Dynaloy appears to offer some alternatives: http://www.dynaloy.com/Products/epoxy_cured.html Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 12:14:25 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:14:25 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467FF006.8020906@srv.net> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <467FF006.8020906@srv.net> Message-ID: <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> On 25/06/07, Kevin Handy wrote: > If I push the start button on floorboard of my car to shut it down (I > don't see any "Start key" anywhere), I'd expect a lot of ground gear > metal in return, plus the need to replace the starter. It's on the *floor*? Coo. I am a biker myself - pedal and motorcycles both - and don't know much about cars, but I don't believe I've ever seen a car with a starter button. Maybe in a museum. But that's a side issue. The real point is that the Windows "start button" is not analagous or homologous to a mechanical start button on an engine. You may as well compare a button on Windows to a button on your cardigan. They're both "buttons" but they have nothing in common. Personally, if people expressed confusion, I told them "amongst other things, you can start the shutdown process from here". That seems perfectly logical to me. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From kth at srv.net Mon Jun 25 12:27:02 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:27:02 -0600 Subject: [BULK]Re: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706250953y74a218c8n340b9fcfb5cd15a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com> <467B9BBB.32583.71B65BD3@cclist.sydex.com> <467C0967.2070405@gmail.com> <467ED5F1.70709@brutman.com> <575131af0706250953y74a218c8n340b9fcfb5cd15a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467FFAE6.2090802@srv.net> Liam Proven wrote: > On 24/06/07, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> Single Level Store: >> >> - The operating system and all user processes share a single large >> address space. >> >> - There is no filesystem: every database table, user profile, etc. is >> addressed by a pointer in this very large address space. >> >> >> This seems insane, but it works. There are a few things that make it >> work better: >> >> - database tables, user profiles, etc. are all well defined data >> structures. They are referred to 'objects', although I don't really >> think it is object oriented. >> >> - There is a lot of pointer checking going on to prevent overruns and >> accessing data that isn't yours. >> >> - Pointers are 'tagged' by the operating system to indicate if they are >> legitimate (ie: blessed by the OS and secure). If a user somehow >> manages to change a pointer in a non-blessed way, the 'tag' is lost. >> >> >> The old 48 bit CISC architecture (IMPI) was quite a weirdy compared to >> modern architectures. > > Whooo! Now that is odd. > > Are there any emulators for these things knocking around, or are they > still too commercial? > Sounds a lot like Palm/OS From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 12:29:23 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:29:23 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> References: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> On 23/06/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > The First Off-the-Shelf Microcomputer > > On Sat, 23 Jun 2007, Lance Lyon wrote: > > Errrr.... wasn't that the PET 20001 ? > > Possibly. > > Here we go again. > What does "First Off-the-shelf Microcomputer" mean? > > First to go into design? > First announced? > First demo'd? > First prototyped? > First to enter production? > First "released"? (what does THAT mean?) > First that could be ordered? > First delivered? > First that could be purchased for cash in a store? Fair point and some good questions. For me, personally, what mattered was the first one under ?100. (At that time, in the early 1980s, under US$100 would have done as a comparison.) As far as I heard back then, Apple did the first machine for under $1000. Very nice for those rich Americans in the prosperous north or coastal states. Pure fantasy for a middle-class English kid in the Europe. That was possibly the family's net income for several months. What mattered to *me* was Clive Sinclair's computers. Machines you could actually afford. Microcomputers for the everyman. Not business machines for thousands, not even cut-down toys for the American home market or high-quality educational machines for the European market, but computers designed and made for the home, for hobbyists, where all you needed was the computer - it worked with your existing TV and cassette tape recorder - and said computer cost, say, a week or two's disposable income, so it's something you might buy for your child. For me, that meant a 48K Spectrum, bought 2nd hand from a classified ad for ?80 in about 1983. Before then, I'd learned to code on friends and family's multiple ZX81s, but that didn't do enough to interest a 13 yr old kid. No sound, no graphics, no colour. I'd used the Commodore PETs at school but there were only 4 of them between over 400 pupils - and this in an expensive, fairly exclusive, private boarding school! For a more formal definition, though, I'd say "the first personal computer" that mattered would probably be the first microprocessor-based machine, with a QWERTY keyboard and an actual VDU of some form - i.e., more than a single line of text - that ordinary customers could pay money for and receive in return. Not pre-order, but buy and receive. How or where doesn't matter. Something like the MITS Altair or 8800 or whatever was too obscure for the everyman, I think. Doesn't count. Tony, your HP sounds like the first single-unit ready-to-use desktop computer, but that's not the same thing. I bet it was appallingly expensive, and with a calculator display what it could do would be very limited - a great deal less than a 1K ZX-81, I would think...? -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 25 13:06:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:06:42 -0700 Subject: GI CP1600; was: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706250952h1c73a311j4a865370d6b9c08c@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706220800h124c4e33tea56e4ebf20f2b04@mail.gmail.com>, <467BCED9.19505.727E0566@cclist.sydex.com>, <575131af0706250952h1c73a311j4a865370d6b9c08c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467FA1C2.17224.67B9CE@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jun 2007 at 17:52, Liam Proven wrote: > Since most 1610 instructions are 10-bits wide, game programs are > stored in 10-bit wide ROMs. This 10-bit "byte" is referred to as a > decle (rhymes with "heckle"). Some instructions require 16 bits; these > are stored in two successive 10-bit locations, referred to as a > bidecle. (For prototyping, dual 8-bit EPROMs are used, with the low 8 > bits of each decle stored in one EPROM and the top 2 bits stored in > the other.) Much of this is misleading. First off, only the first word of an instruction is 10 bits wide--the remaining 6 bits in my GI book is labeled "Reserved for future expansion"--that's the first time I've seen that actually spelled out. The second word of each instruction (usually an immediate value) is 16 bits; but there is an instruction (SDBD) that tells the processor to fetch two 8 bit values out of succeeding words instead. So you could get by with a 10 bit ROM, though it wasn't the most efficient. Since the processor identified M1 fetches, one could have used 16-bit ROM and dedicated the unused 6 bits for use by other devices, such as a coprocessor. There was a pin on the CP1600 that seemed to be made for this--PCIT--when asserted, it inhibited the P-counter from incrementing on an instruction fetch, so the CP1600 could be forced to "stall" until some external device had completed its function. There were some clever ideas in the architecture. 8 16-bit registers, with R7 being the P-counter and R6 being the (upward- growing) stack pointer. R6 post-incremented when referenced for a memory write and pre-decremented for a memory read. R4 and R5 were auto-increment registers. The opcode for JUMP and CALL was the same-- the instruction saved the current PC in a register before loading the new value. An unconditional jump was signified by specifying this register as R7--which caused the old PC to be overwritten without saving. The I/O was miserably slow, however. Pricing was very good for the time--the 1K price in 1975 was $40. The GIMINI development system could be had for $3500. At the time, GI billed the 1600 as "The World's Most Powerful Single- Chip Microprocessor". Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 13:17:53 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:17:53 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <467FF006.8020906@srv.net> <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <468006D1.40407@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 25/06/07, Kevin Handy wrote: > >> If I push the start button on floorboard of my car to shut it down (I >> don't see any "Start key" anywhere), I'd expect a lot of ground gear >> metal in return, plus the need to replace the starter. > > It's on the *floor*? Coo. > > I am a biker myself - pedal and motorcycles both - and don't know much > about cars, but I don't believe I've ever seen a car with a starter > button. Maybe in a museum. Many high-end luxury cars are coming with them nowadays, because they're coming with keys that work over radio, meaning you don't have to take them out of your pocket to unlock the door or start the engine. Peace... Sridhar From austin at ozpass.co.uk Mon Jun 25 13:53:42 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:53:42 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 25/6/07 18:14, "Liam Proven" wrote: > I am a biker myself - pedal and motorcycles both - and don't know much > about cars, but I don't believe I've ever seen a car with a starter > button. Maybe in a museum. My VX220 Turbo had a starter button (manufactured 2003). I do understand your point though, just being silly. -Austin. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 25 14:11:36 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:11:36 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <468006D1.40407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706251911.l5PJBeLr011993@keith.ezwind.net> >>> If I push the start button on floorboard of my car to shut it down (I >>> don't see any "Start key" anywhere), I'd expect a lot of ground gear >>> metal in return, plus the need to replace the starter. >> >Many high-end luxury cars are coming with them nowadays, because they're >coming with keys that work over radio, meaning you don't have to take >them out of your pocket to unlock the door or start the engine. I have to turn the key and push in the clutch to start my car. I often have the key turned long before my akie old knee gets the clutch to the floor engageing the starter in my 13 year old saturn. And I know that improper use of the clutch can stop the car. But in an attempt to put this back close to the origional topic, the best way to shut down a computer that does not have a big red button, right now, no delay, is to pull the quick disconnect power cord from the back of the case with a swift movement of the hand or foot. There are a number of Web and telnet enabled switch boxes that allow one to greatly entend the length of ones foot to kick the power cord on a system from many miles away, and plug it back in when desired. I use an APC masterswitch as a reminder to my systems downtown just who is in control of their electrons should one start spewing. later Bob From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 25 15:02:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:02:17 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <467FF006.8020906@srv.net>, <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467FBCD9.19628.D1893B@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jun 2007 at 18:14, Liam Proven wrote: > I am a biker myself - pedal and motorcycles both - and don't know much > about cars, but I don't believe I've ever seen a car with a starter > button. Maybe in a museum. Liam, you must not be old enough. Most cars made before 1951 or so had one--I clearly recall the one on my aunt's 1950 Hudson. > The real point is that the Windows "start button" is not analagous or > homologous to a mechanical start button on an engine. You may as well > compare a button on Windows to a button on your cardigan. They're both > "buttons" but they have nothing in common. An unfortunate labeling. It really should be notated "Main Menu" or something similar. But that's just nitpicking. I never use "Start" to initiate a system shutdown--I prefer Alt-F4 with the focus on the desktop. Cheers, Chuck From rollerton at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 15:04:28 2007 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:04:28 -0500 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <467F92FE.28813.2E08F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <467F92FE.28813.2E08F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0706251304m3e0860b6p9fc7d360eeb2130b@mail.gmail.com> On 6/25/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 25 Jun 2007 at 17:13, Austin Pass wrote: > > > The WD40 is on hold, as it appears I've lent out or disposed of mine. > > > > It's impossible to know what type of tape was used, other than it was > quite > > wide and in place for rather a long time! When I do get hold of some > WD40 > > tomorrow (GooGone doesn't seem to be available in the UK based on a > cursory > > check) I'll test it on the rear of the "wheel covers" to ensure no > lasting > > damage (should it prove too harsh.) I've sprayed it on and around ABS > > plastics in the past without any harm, however. > > You might also try some lamp oil (paraffin oil/white kerosene). Slow > evaporation, so you can leave it to soak. In the grand scheme of > petroleum solvents, it's very mild, but has worked to remove tape > adhesive for me. The triple-filtered "ultra-pure" stuff has > practically no odor. Clean up any residue with detergent and water. > > Cheers, > Chuck My preferences: Naptha as a low activity solvent Wd40 (Naptha in a spray can?) Googone, GoofOff. Sold to remove paint drips; I like the non-petrolium low-VOC version. Citrus based cleaner; Orange Glo, etc. You might need to soak a really dried label or glue spot; use a paper towel wet with the cleaner of choice and lay (or tape!) it on the area and then cover with a bit of plastic wrap to keep it from drying out. Its always a good idea to start with the weakest cleaner and then move up to somethign stronger until you find what will soften the adhesive. Also a good idea to do a bit of testing in some area thats not going to be apparent in case the cleaner decides to lift some paint or somehow cause the plastic to discolor. Watch out for solvents that are a higher order than the plastic you are working with; Acetone, Lacquer thinner, and MEK will turn solvent based plastics to jelly. From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Jun 25 15:09:19 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:09:19 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> References: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <97ea93488cfc026c6e6b621bffb1bce4@mac.com> On 25 Jun 2007, at 18:29, Liam Proven wrote: > > > What mattered to *me* was Clive Sinclair's computers. Machines you > could actually afford. Microcomputers for the everyman. Not business > machines for thousands, not even cut-down toys for the American home > market or high-quality educational machines for the European market, > but computers designed and made for the home, for hobbyists, where all > you needed was the computer - it worked with your existing TV and > cassette tape recorder - and said computer cost, say, a week or two's > disposable income, so it's something you might buy for your child. I started collecting home computers and have a large number of Apple, sinclair , commodore and amstrad equipment. This started my interest in computers of all types. After joining this list, my horizons have been broadly expanded as to what was available if you had the money. I like nothing more than messing about with hardware that once cost as much as my car or even house but is now almost free. > > Tony, your HP sounds like the first single-unit ready-to-use desktop > computer, but that's not the same thing. I bet it was appallingly > expensive, and with a calculator display what it could do would be > very limited - a great deal less than a 1K ZX-81, I would think...? > HP-85's are my favorite. A machine i had never heard of 20 years ago. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 25 15:15:50 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:15:50 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467FBCD9.19628.D1893B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706252015.l5PKFrUV016174@keith.ezwind.net> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:02:17 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >An unfortunate labeling. It really should be notated "Main Menu" or >something similar. But that's just nitpicking. I never use "Start" >to initiate a system shutdown--I prefer Alt-F4 with the focus on the >desktop. >Cheers, >Chuck Oh .. a clean non destructive shutdown :-) I use the CAD reset (control alt delete) when at the console and a CAE alt (control alt end) if logged in using terminal services. This is often refered to as the Mickeysoft three fingered salute. Everything else are just menu entries and alternative exits. later bob From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 15:25:22 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:25:22 -0500 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <97ea93488cfc026c6e6b621bffb1bce4@mac.com> References: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> <97ea93488cfc026c6e6b621bffb1bce4@mac.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730706251325s5bb7c27dm3ac8dd2de46c305e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/25/07, Roger Pugh wrote: > like nothing more than messing about with hardware that once cost as > much as my car or even house but is now almost free. I enjoy that aspect of collecting these machines as well. The "this was completely unattainable in 19__" factor, as well as playing the "let's add up the total original cost of everything in my basement" game. Of course, the Big Iron collectors always win that one ;) From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 25 15:32:16 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:32:16 -0400 Subject: VCF/Midwest 3.0 - July 14/15 Message-ID: <200706251632.17015.pat@computer-refuge.org> It's just 3 weeks until the third annual Vintage Computer Festival, Midwest edition. We've got a few interesting speakers lined up, and more to be added shortly. So come all ye collectors, see the speakers, and even exhibit your favorite items from your collection! We still have plenty of space to fill up with exhibitors. If you're interested in being an exhibitor, please sign up before Sunday, July 8th. Don't wait until the last minute, or there may not be space left! VCF/Midwest 3.0 will be July 14-15, at Purdue University's Stewart center. Speakers will run from 11a to 2p each day, and exhibits and the marketplace will be open from 2p to 6p. Admission is $5 per day for access to the whole event, and kids 17 and under get in for free. For more details, and to sign up as an exhbitor or vendor, please see the official VCF/Midwest 3.0 website at: http://www.vintage.org/2007/midwest/index.php If you have any questions, feel free to send me a message at: vcfmw at computer-refuge.org. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 25 15:34:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070625132701.I83660@shell.lmi.net> > >> I eventually figured out that to shut down a Windows box, you click on > >> Start > >> (that was a very tough hurdle for me - you'd be surprised!) > > The start key on your car is also used to shutdown ;o) On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Andrew Burton wrote: > dont forget you can also shutdown windows by pressing Control+Alt+Delete and selecting "shut down". Not sure how long that feature has been in windows, but its definately in Windows 2K. - Andrew B (via mobile phone) . . . or press Alt+F4 until all active windows are closed, and then once more . . . or press the power button OB_OT: My 1959 Willys FC170 had a starter button, although most that I've seen had the starter wired to the ignition switch OB_OT: because of issues of matching starter voltage, bushing size, and flywheel teeth (109 v 130?), for a few years, I started my 1958 VW pickup with a crank (which came off of an early 1950s VW) From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 25 15:58:01 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:58:01 +0100 Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) In-Reply-To: <200706221905.PAA09271@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <003301c7b76b$86818f90$5b01a8c0@uatempname> der Mouse wrote: > Ah. Then "undocumented (as far as I can tell)" here really means "I > haven't found the right manual yet". > > I'll keep your message around and go digging for the scans you refer > to some time when I have the leisure. Thanks for the pointer! Before I forget I should say that slipping "78032" into Manx gets you the CPU Chip guide and the KA630-AA User's Guide (which is equivalent to what was later usually called the CPU Technical Manual). Antonio From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 25 16:01:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:01:07 -0600 Subject: VCF/Rocky Mountains? Message-ID: Any interest? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 25 16:09:03 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> References: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070625135646.T83660@shell.lmi.net> > > Here we go again. > > What does "First Off-the-shelf Microcomputer" mean? > > First to go into design? > > First announced? > > First demo'd? > > First prototyped? > > First to enter production? > > First "released"? (what does THAT mean?) > > First that could be ordered? > > First delivered? > > First that could be purchased for cash in a store? > On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > Fair point and some good questions. but far from a complete list of the variant ways to define "first" I had never thought that my personal issue of price was valid for determining "first", but, . . . > For me, personally, what mattered was the first one under ?100. (At > that time, in the early 1980s, under US$100 would have done as a > comparison.) I remember one time in the ealry 1980s checking into exchange rates, particularly dollar/yen for Epson HC20, RC20, etc. At that time, a USD was about 300 yen, and there were IIRC 2.85 USD per British Pound. It sounds like Timex was giving us an exceptional deal, relative to Sinclair in the UK. > As far as I heard back then, Apple did the first machine > for under $1000. Very nice for those rich Americans in the prosperous > north or coastal states. Pure fantasy for a middle-class English kid > in the Europe. That was possibly the family's net income for several > months. ISTR a base price for Apple around $1200 USD I was running a successful business at the time, so my funds for following up that particular fantasy were substantially better than when I was a kid. > For a more formal definition, though, I'd say "the first personal > computer" that mattered would probably be the first > microprocessor-based machine, with a QWERTY keyboard and an actual VDU > of some form - i.e., more than a single line of text - that ordinary > customers could pay money for and receive in return. Not pre-order, > but buy and receive. How or where doesn't matter. Well, there does seem to have been some game-playing with prices in other markets. The TRS80 was $599 in the USA, but $399 without monitor and tape recorder. Were ALL micros cheaper in the US than in the UK? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From kth at srv.net Mon Jun 25 16:10:41 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:10:41 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467FBCD9.19628.D1893B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <467FF006.8020906@srv.net>, <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> <467FBCD9.19628.D1893B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46802F51.5070506@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Jun 2007 at 18:14, Liam Proven wrote: > > >> I am a biker myself - pedal and motorcycles both - and don't know much >> about cars, but I don't believe I've ever seen a car with a starter >> button. Maybe in a museum. >> > > Liam, you must not be old enough. Most cars made before 1951 or so > had one--I clearly recall the one on my aunt's 1950 Hudson. > > >> The real point is that the Windows "start button" is not analagous or >> homologous to a mechanical start button on an engine. You may as well >> compare a button on Windows to a button on your cardigan. They're both >> "buttons" but they have nothing in common. >> > > An unfortunate labeling. It really should be notated "Main Menu" or > Just got the image of turning the "main menu" key to start my car. I hope it's just my cold acting up. ;) > something similar. But that's just nitpicking. I never use "Start" > to initiate a system shutdown--I prefer Alt-F4 with the focus on the > desktop. > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 25 16:15:51 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) In-Reply-To: <003301c7b76b$86818f90$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <003301c7b76b$86818f90$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <200706252117.RAA10957@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Before I forget I should say that slipping "78032" into Manx gets you > the CPU Chip guide and the KA630-AA User's Guide (which is equivalent > to what was later usually called the CPU Technical Manual). I have a scan of EK-KA630-UG-001, which has been very valuable to me; I assume that's the User's Guide you mention. I'll have to see if I can dig up that "CPU Chip guide". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 25 15:31:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:31:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467E95CD.29924.7D572D26@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 24, 7 04:03:25 pm Message-ID: > > On 24 Jun 2007 at 22:18, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > I used to fit microwave links onto the tops of tall multi-storey > > buildings. The lift controllers I saw tended to run from a small rack > > the size of a MicroVAX 3300, up to several wardrobe-size racks full of > > relays. > > Let's not forget interesting control systems in other devices, such > as jukeboxes (Seeburg used core memory, I believe), scoreboards and > combination actions in pipe organs. years ago, I rescued much of the control electronics from some kind of X-ray diffraction instruemnt. The parts I really wanted (and got) were the paper tape punch and reader and the printer, but I grabbed the electroncis units too. The punch and reader are the mechansims from a Friden Flexowriter, mounted on 19" rack pneals, with their own drive motors hehind. The printer is a Comptometer adding machine (I am not sure if any mods were done to it) with solenoids mounted over the key levers. The control electroncis is all discrete transsitors on plug-in PCBs. There are a couple of rows of DM160 valves [1] used as status indicators. And one of the units has a plugboard on the front to configure the instrument. [1] I am not sure what the US equivalent is. It's a little glass envelope about 1.25" long by .25" diameter. It has 4 connections, 2 of them are the ends of a 1.1V directly-heated cathode, one is a target (run at about +30V wrt cathode, the last is the control grid. With 0V bias on the grid you get a bright green glow from the target (and thus from the side of the valve), with -3V bias, it's cut off, and dark. They wrre used as logic status indicators before there were LEDs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 25 15:44:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:44:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <652356.77881.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jun 24, 7 07:28:28 pm Message-ID: > > "I am still wondering why the IBM5100 gets regarded as > a significant > machine when the HP9830 was a couple of years ealier > and had a very > similar specificiation." > > In a word - exposure. HP stuff is oftentimes a tad > esoteric for the *usual* goofy collector or whatever > you call peeps who are into this stuff. OK, but how mwnay people rememebr the IBM5100 when it came out? (I am not talking about the 5150, the PC). If you can find out about an obscure (IMHO) IBM machine, then finding out about the HP9830 shouldn't be any harder. [...] > > "http://www.hpmuseum.org/" > > Very well done site, a little hard to find certain > information though (for me anyway). I find the http://www.hpmuseum.net/ site to be more useful for these larger machines. Not as many pictures, but plenty of useful manuals. > > > Tony, was the HP9830 a computer you could enter > a shop and exit with one > > on the arms? > > Truthfully, how does this arise as a criteria? What > about units (that appeared later) with integral 12" > CRT's. Cuz the average chick or many dudes even > couldn't tuck it under their arm and go on their merry > way, does that make it any less a *personal* computer? I've rackmounted my complete PDP11 system by myself, but I can't lift an HP9845B fully assembled. Fortunately the monitor is easy to remove.. The 9845 is a _beast_. I estimate over 1000 chips in the machine + monitor (arount 200 in the latter alone). > If it won't crush the desk beneath it, I'd say that > qualifies it as a pc. Err, I've got a PDP8/e + TU56 DECtape + PC04 paper tape on my desk... > > I think the better definition of a > "off-the-shelf" puter is a puter you > > can enter a shop, buy a system, bring it home. No > special questions, > > training or instalation needed. And this should be a > complete computer, > > Again ancillary terminology is being introduced. Who > says a pc has to be "off the shelf" in the sense that > you can reach up and pull one down. Expressing > availability as "off the shelf" seems a bit arbitrary. No, I think that defintion is reasonable. With some systems -- say if you were putting together an S100 system -- you had to do hardwre mods to get the boards to work together properly. You had to patch the OS to work with your choiuce of I/O boards. And so on. The thing about the TRS-80, PET, etc and indeed the 9830 before them was that you didn't have to know anything about computers to be able to get them to work. You just turned them on, and provided there wasn;t a component failure, you could use them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 25 15:52:55 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:52:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: from "Austin Pass" at Jun 25, 7 03:01:13 pm Message-ID: > I was wondering what the most appropriate solvent might be to remove this > crud, given that the skins themselves are some form of plastic. I don;'t know if it's safe on this plastic (try it on the inside first!), but I've found cigarette lighter fluid (the Naphtha one, not butane gas) to be good for removing stickly tape residue. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 25 16:24:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:24:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <97ea93488cfc026c6e6b621bffb1bce4@mac.com> from "Roger Pugh" at Jun 25, 7 09:09:19 pm Message-ID: > HP-85's are my favorite. A machine i had never heard of 20 years ago. It's odd, but the HP80 series are my least favourite of the HP desktops. Far too much custom silicon for my taste, and an expansion bus that's plain weird. After the 9830, I think my favourites are the HP9000/200 series (HP9816, 9826, 9836, 9817, etc). Small-ish 68000 machines with a very good HP technical BASIC (or UCSD Pascal). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 25 16:21:57 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:21:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Jun 25, 7 06:29:23 pm Message-ID: > Tony, your HP sounds like the first single-unit ready-to-use desktop > computer, but that's not the same thing. I bet it was appallingly > expensive, and with a calculator display what it could do would be > very limited - a great deal less than a 1K ZX-81, I would think...? I'll grant that it was expensive (I would guess about $6K). But it certainly wasn;t limited and could do a lot more than a 1K ZX81. The built-in display was a 1-line 32 character alphanumeric unit. Hardly a 'calculator display'. In general you linked up the 9866 printer if you wanted a larger 'display' for things like program listings. If you wanted graphives 9and were rich!), you eitehr linked up a plotter -- there was a pltoter ROM add-on to BASIC that added useful statements to drive the plotter -- or you got the HPIB interface, an HP1350 'graphics translator' (vector display generator) and an HP1311 monitor. I am wondering why you consider the dispaly to be an important part of the machine, though. This thing was not designed for games, after all. It was designed for scientific data processing, data logging, control, and the like. For which yuo probably don't need more than a 1-line display. I have no idea what the minimum amount of memory was, possibly 4K bytes. AFAIK the maximum on a standard HP machines was 16K. Oh yess, and unlike Sinclair's RAM, it didn't wobble :-) The BASIC was a lot more powerful than Sinxlair's offering too, if you added the option ROMs. You had matrices, string variables, low-level I/O, etc. Put it this way. I have a ZX81, I also have an HP9830. I know which I'd rather use. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 25 16:30:30 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:30:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bitmap images In-Reply-To: <467FF2C1.3000806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <303229.67439.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Andrew Burton wrote: > > Hi, i was reading up on bitmap (mainly .bmp, with > > some .wbmp) images > > last night and was wondering why everything is > > stored backwards > > (e.g. BGR instead of RGB and the bottom of the > > image first, instead > > of the top)? > > I believe the backwards RGB quads* are just a > hang-up from the fact that > almost every platform which supported .bmp files > used an Intel x86 (or > compatible) CPU - and Intel's x86 processors store > multi-byte values lowest-first. Yeah, I discovered that out the hard way. Do all Intel CPU's do that or just x86's (and compatibles)? > > > *Going from hazy memory, I seem to recall that > colour map entries in .bmp > files are four bytes: BGRx, with x being always set > to zero. I can't remember > if 24-bit direct-colour images also use four bytes per > pixel or only three. Yeah, that's exactly how it works. I assume the reserved bytes (always set to 0!) were to do with aligning values on a 4 byte boundary for the Intel X86? Not got onto 24-bit images yet. > > No idea why the origin of the image was bottom-left > rather than top-left, but > there wasn't ever really a standard for this kind of > thing (if MS Windows > itself sets the origin at bottom-left then it certainly > makes sense; .bmp was > really only ever popular for MS-Windows, after all) > > > Also would i need to pay a license if i wrote a > > program to create .bmp > > files? > > As far as I know, no. Ok, thanks. Will check online just to be safe :) > > > My main aim is to write a .bmp to (amiga) .iff > > format > > Heh, the last time I wrote any .bmp handling code it > was to do that the other > way around, as I had a bunch of IFF files that I > wanted to read on a Windows > 3.1 box. > > > , but would love to add > > full .bmp support to an art program i wrote for the > > amiga and then stick it > > online (on Aminet.com ) for other people to use if > > they wish. > > Obvious question: why .bmp? As above, it was only > ever popular with MS > Windows; in the rest of the world TIFF, PCX, or > Targa support tended to be a > lot more prominent. PCX and Targa seem to have > fallen by the wayside these > days, but TIFF is still alive and well, and of course > PNG has come on the scene. I have some TIFF and PCX images on old PC disks (from early 90's). Microsoft Paint doesn't support them (I don't require a proper art program on the PC for what I do) and I doubt the vast majority of PC users have even heard of them. I got WinCapture, made around 1993, off of one of the old disks and it still works (just about) on Windows 2K. I can use it to capture any image onscreen (except movies read from CD/DVD - I guess because the software is so old?) and turn it into a bitmap image :) > If I were writing something to export data to an > image format these days, I'd > pick TIFF or PNG over MS-bitmap; certainly writing > a TIFF encoder isn't too > complex (writing a comprehensive decoder can get a > little hairy due to all the > vendor extensions, but writing something to handle > the typical flavours isn't > hard), and from what I hear PNG isn't too difficult to > handle either. > > cheers > > Jules Well, like I said the main target is Amiga .iff format, but it would be nice to include other formats for those using Amiga emulators. That way they can transfer images to a PC friendly format for whatever purpose they require them for (website, advert, project, etc.). It would make advertising my games on my website easier if I can get direct images, instead of using a webcam or digital camera to take pictures of the screen (which turn out rubbish - see http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/mysite/glists/my_amigagames.html )! I haven't actually got pictures of GamesVol3 up yet, though it only contains my .ABI encoder and decoder programs. Yes, I created my own image format! For "simple" images it does turn out smaller than the Amiga .iff format, despite me not using compression in version 1! I do include example images on GV3. None of my stuff is actually available online yet, I just sent disk-based copies to 2 fellow AMOS coders - one in Germany and one in the US. Err... I'm babbling now. Better finish up and read the rest of my emails :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 25 16:43:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:43:39 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46802F51.5070506@srv.net> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <467FBCD9.19628.D1893B@cclist.sydex.com>, <46802F51.5070506@srv.net> Message-ID: <467FD49B.28044.12E5530@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jun 2007 at 15:10, Kevin Handy wrote: > Just got the image of turning the "main menu" key to > start my car. I hope it's just my cold acting up. ;) Just wait. 20 years ago, the notion of a portable telephone with a menu would have seemed a bit peculiar. Cheers, Chuck From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Jun 25 17:18:53 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 23:18:53 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b91acc1e989554e6bcf38788e400dd5@mac.com> On 25 Jun 2007, at 22:21, Tony Duell wrote: > > Put it this way. I have a ZX81, I also have an HP9830. I know which I'd > rather use. > > -tony > > most used toys at the moment...... in no particular order ICL one per desk Sinclair QL commodore sx64 apple lisa mac se/30 sun server e220 hp85 microprofessor mpf1p amstrad 9512+ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 25 17:32:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:32:17 -0600 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <20070625135646.T83660@shell.lmi.net> References: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> <20070625135646.T83660@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46804271.50603@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > Were ALL micros cheaper in the US than in the UK? I don't know ... I live in Canada. I suspect with out the TAX added it seems in that part of the world I would suspect it the would be same price in US $$$. Then again who knows what is considered a luxury item out there. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 25 17:34:12 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:34:12 -0600 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468042E4.4070403@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony, your HP sounds like the first single-unit ready-to-use desktop >> computer, but that's not the same thing. I bet it was appallingly >> expensive, and with a calculator display what it could do would be >> very limited - a great deal less than a 1K ZX-81, I would think...? > > I'll grant that it was expensive (I would guess about $6K). But it > certainly wasn;t limited and could do a lot more than a 1K ZX81. But I could get a ZX81 back then. I just found out about HP puters here on CCTALK. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 25 18:00:37 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 00:00:37 +0100 Subject: (another) Floppy disc reader status update and RFC Message-ID: <46804915.3070703@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Progress is going a little slower than I'd hoped.. I've been roped into working most of the past few weeks, so all I've got done is the final block diagram and part of the schematic. What I have got is a box containing ?200 worth of CPLDs, Molex connectors, and other parts I had to order from Digikey. What this basically means is that after I've got the schematic and PCB done, I can get a prototype built up within a day or so of finishing the PCB. Assuming, that is, I manage to etch the PCB without any bridged/broken tracks (especially on the CPLD and PIC, which are both QFP parts). So here's the final spec as I see it: - USB interface -- USB2.0 Full Speed (12Mbit/sec) - 40-pin disc interface connector. All outputs are open-collector -- the first 34 pins are wired exactly as the standard PC floppy connector is. The remaining 6 pins are all open-collector outputs with internal 680R pull-ups to +5V. The state of these pins can also be read back in, assuming they're set to 'output high' mode. - Replaceable bus drivers. 74LS07 O/C buffers are used - these are not generally ESD sensitive, and are rated to 20V over the outputs. All the buffers will be socketed and can be replaced easily in the field (as long as you have spares, that is). - Flexible triggering options: - Start of capture: - MFM sync word detection, with programmable sync word (*) - Rising or falling edge of index pulse - Hard-sector track mark detection - "Wait for N start events before triggering" option - Termination of capture: - MFM sync word detection, with programmable sync word (*) - Rising or falling edge of index pulse - Hard-sector track mark detection - "Wait for N start events before triggering" option (*): The capture CPLD only has one MFM sync detector, which is shared between the Start and Stop events. Note that the acquisition clock divider must be set correctly in order for the sync word detector to function. [ A future version of the CPLD may offer the option of independent clock generators for the sync detector and acquisition system - currently Facq is locked at 32 times the disc's bit-rate, e.g. 500kbit * 32 = 16MHz for 3.5-inch HD. This is a fairly simple mod, so I might do it before release, but 32*Fdata should be enough to get a usable scan ] - 128 kilobytes onboard high-speed SRAM buffer with end-of-capture-address storage. - Disc writes controlled by a simple microsequencer - commands are: - Wait N cycles and strobe WR_DATA - Stop writing - Open/close Write Gate - Wait for hard-sector track mark - Wait for N index pulses (where 1 <= N <= 31) - Onboard flash upgrading feature for both the main microcontroller and CPLD, with failed-flash recovery and forced-reflash options for both devices (as long as the bootloader is still intact). The boot block will also be protected against overwriting, to reduce the possibility of irrecoverable 'bricking'. - Multi-platform (Linux and Windows initially, OSX if someone ports it) programming library to handle disc read/write operations, including full source code and example 'dartutil' application. - Open-source hardware design, but with hardware available for purchase either fully-assembled or as a complete or partial kit (optionally with SMD parts soldered down). - Power supply: USB bus power or external 7-12V power supply unit. Can anyone think of anything else before I start drawing up the schematics? I'm also thinking about an extension to the ImageDisk file format to allow storage of raw MFM data, though I'm not sure how to go about doing this... creating a whole new format may be a better idea. So to recap, this is done: - Block diagram and outline design - CPLD code (all major functional units tested and working) And this needs doing: - Schematics - PCB layout - Prototyping I'm currently toying with the idea of moving the half-done schematic from OrCAD/SDT to KiCAD [] (on the basis that KiCAD is open-source, newer, and can do just about everything OrCAD can do), though I've not decided yet. Other suggestions (please don't suggest EAGLE...) will be given due consideration :) -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 25 18:07:42 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467FD49B.28044.12E5530@cclist.sydex.com> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <467FBCD9.19628.D1893B@cclist.sydex.com>, <46802F51.5070506@srv.net> <467FD49B.28044.12E5530@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070625160242.M83660@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Just wait. 20 years ago, the notion of a portable telephone with a > menu would have seemed a bit peculiar. It still does. I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone. - Bjarne Stroustrup -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 25 18:20:01 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:20:01 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467FD49B.28044.12E5530@cclist.sydex.com> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <467FBCD9.19628.D1893B@cclist.sydex.com>, <46802F51.5070506@srv.net> <467FD49B.28044.12E5530@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46804DA1.7000803@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Jun 2007 at 15:10, Kevin Handy wrote: > Just wait. 20 years ago, the notion of a portable telephone with a > menu would have seemed a bit peculiar. I still chuckle over Smart's shoe phone. Most of Si-Fi or James Bond type ideas seem to have made to the real world now days. The only thing *never* predicted was a small computer. > Cheers, > Chuck PS. They banned Cell phones from where I work part time. Too many people talking rather than working. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 18:31:31 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:31:31 -0400 Subject: Apple ][ with Alpha Syntauri Message-ID: <4affc5e0706251631p34f36908hfcf9aa30116be321@mail.gmail.com> A while ago someone asked about early synthesizer-computer stuff. I just saw this on Montreals Craigslist: "Synth?tiseur ALHA SYNTAURI SYNTHESISER - $400" http://montreal.craigslist.org/msg/359808712.html I am not in any way affiliated with whoever this is. I'd buy it myself if I had money, space and time (all in perpetual sparse supply...) but i figured some here might be up for it. Joe. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 25 18:52:34 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:52:34 -0700 Subject: (another) Floppy disc reader status update and RFC Message-ID: <46805542.6060106@bitsavers.org> > I'm also thinking about an extension to the ImageDisk file format to allow > storage of raw MFM data, though I'm not sure how to go about doing this... > creating a whole new format may be a better idea. A common low-level format would be a good thing. I don't beleive it exsits in the Catweasel world. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 25 19:11:33 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:11:33 -0700 Subject: What didn't happen in the future Message-ID: <468059B5.6040502@bitsavers.org> > The only thing *never* predicted > was a small computer. and the disappearance of the vinyl record. record store scene in "A Clockwork Orange" for example. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 25 19:26:12 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <468059B5.6040502@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jun 25, 2007 05:11:33 PM Message-ID: <200706260026.l5Q0QCSJ001174@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > The only thing *never* predicted > > was a small computer. > > and the disappearance of the vinyl record. > > record store scene in "A Clockwork Orange" for example. I wasn't aware the vinyl record had disappeared. I'm still buying current albums on vinyl. I buy far more brand new albums on vinyl than I do on CD. In the last year I think I've purchased 1 CD (last weekend at a live performance as it happens), but have bought several dozen new LP's, both rereleases and new material. Some albums such as Bob Dylan's latest were actually cheaper on vinyl. Take a look around at the record stores that are still left, especially the independants, and I think you'll find that a majority of them deal in Vinyl. Many of them are not making money on CD's, but are making money on Vinyl. Oddly enough while CD sales are declining, vinyl sales have more than doubled the last couple years. Of course to really enjoy them, you should only play clean records, and play them on a good turntable. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 25 19:31:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:31:39 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46804DA1.7000803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <467FD49B.28044.12E5530@cclist.sydex.com>, <46804DA1.7000803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <467FFBFB.5348.1C824E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jun 2007 at 17:20, woodelf wrote: > Most of Si-Fi or James Bond type ideas seem to have > made to the real world now days. The only thing *never* predicted > was a small computer. So when did Wal Mart start selling phasers? And no one can tell me where to find the transporter around here. And where does one buy a HAL-9000? Seems like true AI is just like controlled fusion--about 30 years out, no matter when the question is asked. I still love those old sci-fi "B" movies where a computer is shown as some piece of industrial control gear--chart recorders and all. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jun 25 19:33:41 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:33:41 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46804DA1.7000803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <467FBCD9.19628.D1893B@cclist.sydex.com>, <46802F51.5070506@srv.net> <467FD49B.28044.12E5530@cclist.sydex.com> <46804DA1.7000803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46805EE5.9050908@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > PS. They banned Cell phones from where I work part time. > Too many people talking rather than working. Same here, but not because of talking -- because the built-in camera (!) in most modern cell phones poses a security risk. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 25 19:34:32 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:34:32 -0700 Subject: What didn't happen in the future Message-ID: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> > I wasn't aware the vinyl record had disappeared. It has for anyone under 30 Get over it. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 25 19:44:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:44:26 -0700 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <467FFEFA.11044.1D3D769@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jun 2007 at 17:34, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I wasn't aware the vinyl record had disappeared. > > It has for anyone under 30 > > Get over it. ...and anyone who remembers shellac records is a prehistoric fossil, right? Cheers, Chuck From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 19:53:18 2007 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes Jr.) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:53:18 -0400 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I guess I don't exist? ;) *holds his shellacs closely and whispers to them * You do exist... you do exist.... the bad men won't get you ... On Jun 25, 2007, at 8:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I wasn't aware the vinyl record had disappeared. > > It has for anyone under 30 > > Get over it. > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 25 20:01:52 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jun 25, 2007 05:34:32 PM Message-ID: <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > > I wasn't aware the vinyl record had disappeared. > > It has for anyone under 30 > > Get over it. I hate to tell you, but you just proved how out of touch you really are! :^) That is one of the things that is so strange about the resurgence of Vinyl records, it is largely the under 30 crowd that is driving it. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 25 20:10:40 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sparkes Jr." at Jun 25, 2007 08:53:18 PM Message-ID: <200706260110.l5Q1AeNO002262@onyx.spiritone.com> > I guess I don't exist? ;) > > *holds his shellacs closely and whispers to them * You do exist... you > do exist.... the bad men won't get you ... > > If you're messing with 78's and only 18, you obviously have unusual taste in music for someone your age. :^) Having said that I must confess to having a strange affection for them, still odd at over twice your age. I realize that the audio quality isn't as good as LP's, or even CD's, however, it is possible to get music that never made it onto LP, let alone CD. Unlike my LP's which I prefer to listen to on the turntable, I do rip my 78's to audio files. In part to protect them from further damage, and in part to get the equalization right. Once you've got them properly equilized, and drop out the noise, it is amazing how good some of them can sound. Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 20:13:08 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:13:08 -0400 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: > I hate to tell you, but you just proved how out of touch you really are! :^) > That is one of the things that is so strange about the resurgence of Vinyl > records, it is largely the under 30 crowd that is driving it. ???? Vinyl is dead. CDs are dying. Did anyone notice that the DJ at the wedding party next to the unofficial VCFeast Friday dinner was spinning mp3s? He was not ahead of his time. He is in it. I am not going to waste anymore time with this religious fight. -- Will, the other radio DJ on this list. From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 20:18:57 2007 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes Jr.) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:18:57 -0400 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <200706260110.l5Q1AeNO002262@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200706260110.l5Q1AeNO002262@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <107439B0-6660-4D11-A20E-FF0C3CA8E34A@gmail.com> On Jun 25, 2007, at 9:10 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I guess I don't exist? ;) >> >> *holds his shellacs closely and whispers to them * You do exist... >> you >> do exist.... the bad men won't get you ... >> >> > > If you're messing with 78's and only 18, you obviously have unusual > taste in > music for someone your age. :^) Having said that I must confess to > having a > strange affection for them, still odd at over twice your age. I > realize > that the audio quality isn't as good as LP's, or even CD's, however, > it is > possible to get music that never made it onto LP, let alone CD. > > Zane > Oh bah, i've got a nice pile of LPs too.... I just sold my entire stereo system though :( All I have left is my LPs and 78s.. ;) From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 25 20:24:29 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:24:29 -0700 Subject: What didn't happen in the future Message-ID: <46806ACD.1000002@bitsavers.org> > Vinyl is dead. CDs are dying. Did anyone notice that the DJ at the > wedding party next to the unofficial VCFeast Friday dinner was > spinning mp3s? He was not ahead of his time. He is in it. Exactly. Record companies are more than happy to sell you a $30 piece of plastic that can't be copied. There are niches, but this ain't mainstream music distribution. "disappearance" wasn't the right word, "irrelevance" was, going the way of 8-track tape and Selectavision. > I am not going to waste anymore time with this religious fight. Neither am I From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 25 20:25:52 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:25:52 -0500 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070625202504.06c88728@mail> At 10:34 AM 6/25/2007, dwight elvey wrote: >I'm not sure I'd spray WD40 on a SGI Crimson. You might remove more >than tape gum. On typical hard surfaces, things like GooGone work well >but this might not be good on your surface either. Kerosene? Naptha? I'd suggest the most gentle alternative for tape goo is vegetable oil. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 25 20:29:36 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:29:36 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.co m> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <467FF006.8020906@srv.net> <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070625202759.06a733e0@mail> At 12:14 PM 6/25/2007, Liam Proven wrote: >The real point is that the Windows "start button" is not analagous or >homologous to a mechanical start button on an engine. You may as well >compare a button on Windows to a button on your cardigan. They're both >"buttons" but they have nothing in common. Just to confuse matters, today's hybrid Toyota Prius does not require the "key" in the "ignition" - it will start if it detects the key in your pocket - and the "start" button is up on the dash, a round button perhaps 1 1/2" in size, with the circle-with-a-vertical-line icon on it. But it won't start unless your foot is on the brake. Then you can move the (clearly electronic) gear shift into forward or reverse. There's a separate rectangular "Park" button. And when you pull up to a stop light, you can feel the entire car shut down except for the accessory power. There's a central 4x6" video display, too. Shows a rear-view video when you're in reverse, while you're driving it has all sorts of MPG monitoring graphs and animated graphics. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 25 20:36:38 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:36:38 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070625160242.M83660@shell.lmi.net> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <467FBCD9.19628.D1893B@cclist.sydex.com> <46802F51.5070506@srv.net> <467FD49B.28044.12E5530@cclist.sydex.com> <20070625160242.M83660@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070625203538.06864008@mail> At 06:07 PM 6/25/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; >my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my >telephone. - Bjarne Stroustrup A friend of mine from the computer graphics world maintained that no matter how small and powerful they make a computer, even one that you wear on your wrist, that in the future there will always still be a way to get to a DOS prompt. :-) - John From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 25 20:42:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:42:21 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070625202504.06c88728@mail> References: , , <6.2.3.4.2.20070625202504.06c88728@mail> Message-ID: <46800C8D.15208.208DE7A@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jun 2007 at 20:25, John Foust wrote: > Kerosene? Naptha? I'd suggest the most gentle alternative > for tape goo is vegetable oil. Or, if you have an aversion to spreading food on your equipment, try some mineral oil. If it doesn't do the job, it's good for hairballs --in cats. If you have a wood chopping board in your kitchen, mineral oil is the right stuff to keep it in shape. Vegetable oils will go rancid. Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 20:47:44 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070625202504.06c88728@mail> Message-ID: <875986.16084.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- John Foust wrote: > At 10:34 AM 6/25/2007, dwight elvey wrote: > >I'm not sure I'd spray WD40 on a SGI Crimson. You > might remove more > >than tape gum. On typical hard surfaces, things > like GooGone work well > >but this might not be good on your surface either. > > Kerosene? Naptha? I'd suggest the most gentle > alternative > for tape goo is vegetable oil. Vegetable oil? Never heard that one before - might work. I typically use goo gone, it's wonderful stuff, although it is hard on plastics. It's great for the sides of metal cabinets - most recently I used it to get goo off the side of a Vax 6000, but the finish on that is not going to get damaged by something like goo gone - you'd need something a little stronger. Like a hammer. On plastic stuff, over zealous applications of goo gone can smooth out the texture a bit. The trick is to use very little. Try the "other tape" method first. It doesn't _have_ to be the same tape, but it helps. Start by using some packing tape or something, you'll be surprised at just how well it can work. But if the goo is old and hardened, you need a solvent. If goo gone is unavailable, there are numerous other similar products out there - I know that there's one called Contractors DeSolvIt or something similar, it's available in big jugs. But yeah, WD40 will take it off. Just don't use it on plastics. I've never had a problem using it on painted metal, but I've heard that it can take paint off if used too long. The basic trick with solvents is - start with a little, and do it quickly. -Ian From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jun 25 20:53:18 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:53:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: What didn't happen in the future Message-ID: <29060.1182822799090.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Vinyl is dead. CDs are dying. Did anyone notice that the DJ at the >wedding party next to the unofficial VCFeast Friday dinner was >spinning mp3s? He was not ahead of his time. He is in it. > >I am not going to waste anymore time with this religious fight. > >-- >Will, the other radio DJ on this list. I'm not a DJ, but I do play music and have collected it since I was a kid (many years ago). My 78rpm records (that I grew up listening to) are on mp3s on my laptop. My 33 1/3 rpm vinyl albums are on mp3s on my laptop. My 45 rpm records are on mp3s on my laptop. My cassette tapes are on mp3s on my laptop. My 8 track tapes are on mp3s on my laptop. My CDs are on mp3s on my laptop. and the mp3s that I downloaded from eMusic, WalMart, Apple, etc. are on my laptop. They are all also on my desktop system and my iPod. And yes, those 78s do sound much better after you clean the noise up and turn them into mp3s. My PDP-11 is also on my laptop, my desktop, and my web server, running in simh. I had to throw that last line in there just to keep this thread on-topic. :-) Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 25 20:55:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:55:18 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070625202759.06a733e0@mail> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.co m>, <6.2.3.4.2.20070625202759.06a733e0@mail> Message-ID: <46800F96.31349.214B963@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jun 2007 at 20:29, John Foust wrote: >> There's a central 4x6" video display, too. Shows a rear-view video > when you're in reverse, while you're driving it has all sorts of > MPG monitoring graphs and animated graphics. ...just the thing to keep your attention on your driving. But then, that attitude probably makes me a fossil too. Not that long ago, I passed some idiot on the freeway who had a newspaper spread across the steering wheel and who was yakking on a mobile phone at the same time. I couldn't get away from him soon enough. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 25 21:06:30 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:06:30 -0600 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <467FFEFA.11044.1D3D769@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <467FFEFA.11044.1D3D769@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <468074A6.7060206@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: ..and anyone who remembers shellac records is a prehistoric fossil, > right? Nope. WFMU FM has your VERY classic music tuesday nights 7 pm EST. http://wfmu.org/ Live or web cast. The 4 of july looks to be a great hour with music from the turn of the century. > Cheers, > Chuck > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 25 21:09:14 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:09:14 -0600 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4680754A.8020209@jetnet.ab.ca> Gary Sparkes Jr. wrote: > I guess I don't exist? ;) > > *holds his shellacs closely and whispers to them * You do exist... you > do exist.... the bad men won't get you ... Quickly reads ... re-reads -- I thought it said 'bald men won't get you' So where do you hide your Edison cylinders? :) PS. WFMU also plays them every other tuesday. From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jun 25 21:13:25 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:13:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: What didn't happen in the future Message-ID: <18400567.1182824005406.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >I'm not a DJ, but I do play music and have collected it since I was a kid (many years ago). > >My 78rpm records (that I grew up listening to) are on mp3s on my laptop. >My 33 1/3 rpm vinyl albums are on mp3s on my laptop. >My 45 rpm records are on mp3s on my laptop. >My cassette tapes are on mp3s on my laptop. >My 8 track tapes are on mp3s on my laptop. >My CDs are on mp3s on my laptop. >and the mp3s that I downloaded from eMusic, WalMart, Apple, etc. are on my laptop. I forgot to mention that some of my stuff is on YouTube too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtWyNQDgtcA Loaded from the same laptop that has my PDP-11 on it. ... and now I'm done with this topic since it's not really on topic. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com http://www.highlonesomeband.com From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 21:21:45 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:21:45 -0500 Subject: Apple ][ with Alpha Syntauri In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0706251631p34f36908hfcf9aa30116be321@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0706251631p34f36908hfcf9aa30116be321@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730706251921g25c7ef79o9338d0ccac0a7938@mail.gmail.com> On 6/25/07, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > A while ago someone asked about early synthesizer-computer stuff. I > just saw this on Montreals Craigslist: > > "Synth?tiseur ALHA SYNTAURI SYNTHESISER - $400" > http://montreal.craigslist.org/msg/359808712.html Very cool...I've got a somewhat-rare Kurzweil K150 "additive synthesis" rackmount unit. It came with a bunch of Apple // software which, as far as I know, is the only way to program it :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 25 21:26:19 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:26:19 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467FFBFB.5348.1C824E9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <467FD49B.28044.12E5530@cclist.sydex.com>, <46804DA1.7000803@jetnet.ab.ca> <467FFBFB.5348.1C824E9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4680794B.8000403@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > So when did Wal Mart start selling phasers? Some Time in the 23 rd century. > And no one can tell me where to find the transporter around here. Umm they still have one BUG err FLY problem with that system. > And where does one buy a HAL-9000? You can get it in LEGO. :) http://www.mocpages.com/moc.php/30215 I was looking if the had joke about planting high explosives under the CPU as a note in the 2nd edition of mantance manual but found this instead on the web. Seems like true AI is just like controlled fusion--about > 30 years out, no matter when the question is asked. That I still wonder about ... What is AI good for? I suspect had the $$$ been spent towards a 2001 future we would have something close the 1960's movies in space and computer err life modeling hardware since I suspect brain capacity information could handled today. > I still love those old sci-fi "B" movies where a computer is shown as > some piece of industrial control gear--chart recorders and all. And weird sound effects ... > Cheers, > Chuck From evan at snarc.net Mon Jun 25 21:43:25 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:43:25 -0400 Subject: Here's some VCF East audio recording In-Reply-To: <001b01c7b347$eac13910$6401a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <000701c7b79b$c51a0860$6501a8c0@evan> Fyi, this link no longer works, I'm told. Soon we'll post streaming audio instead. Then the whole world can listen to Chuck Peddle! -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:33 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Here's some VCF East audio recording http://www.armchairarcade.com/neo/node/1359 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 25 21:43:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:43:09 -0700 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <468074A6.7060206@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org>, <467FFEFA.11044.1D3D769@cclist.sydex.com>, <468074A6.7060206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46801ACD.15247.24084C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jun 2007 at 20:06, woodelf wrote: > Nope. WFMU FM has your VERY classic music tuesday nights 7 pm EST. > http://wfmu.org/ Live or web cast. The 4 of july looks to be > a great hour with music from the turn of the century. Yup--I've been web-listening to TEA since 2004. Some fascinating stuff to be learned in addition to the music. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 22:27:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 23:27:16 -0400 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <467FFEFA.11044.1D3D769@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <467FFEFA.11044.1D3D769@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46808794.5060405@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Jun 2007 at 17:34, Al Kossow wrote: >> > I wasn't aware the vinyl record had disappeared. >> >> It has for anyone under 30 >> >> Get over it. > > ...and anyone who remembers shellac records is a prehistoric fossil, > right? I'm under 30, and I still buy vinyl. Hell, there are still small production runs in 78RPM Victrola records and I buy those too. And there are all of those club DJ types still buying vinyl, many of whom are young'uns. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 22:32:12 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 23:32:12 -0400 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <875986.16084.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <875986.16084.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <468088BC.2040603@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- John Foust wrote: > >> At 10:34 AM 6/25/2007, dwight elvey wrote: >>> I'm not sure I'd spray WD40 on a SGI Crimson. You >> might remove more >>> than tape gum. On typical hard surfaces, things >> like GooGone work well >>> but this might not be good on your surface either. >> Kerosene? Naptha? I'd suggest the most gentle >> alternative >> for tape goo is vegetable oil. > > Vegetable oil? Never heard that one before - might > work. I typically use goo gone, it's wonderful stuff, > although it is hard on plastics. It's great for the Using a light vegetable oil (canola?) on tape gunk is a *very* old trick. I don't think it actually dissolved anything, but it definitely lubricates the scraping-off of the gunk so you don't scratch the plastic. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 25 22:32:47 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:32:47 -0700 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: At 9:13 PM -0400 6/25/07, William Donzelli wrote: >Vinyl is dead. CDs are dying. Did anyone notice that the DJ at the >wedding party next to the unofficial VCFeast Friday dinner was >spinning mp3s? He was not ahead of his time. He is in it. I guess the sales of new vinyl records are increasing because it is a dead format? Why is it that a group so obsessed with old technology can't accept the possibility that another old technology is making a comeback? If you don't believe me, fine, spend a little time researching the subject. CD sales are down, yet digital AND vinyl sales are up. Is this just a momentary blip? Those who make their living selling them would like to know. One theory is it is a backlash to not actually owning a physical object when you buy a music download. Many of the people purchasing LP's weren't even born when the CD was introduced. BTW, I do agree that CD's are dying. I typically listen to them once on the stereo before loading them into iTunes. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 25 22:44:25 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:44:25 -0500 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <875986.16084.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <875986.16084.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46808B99.9050300@mdrconsult.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > But yeah, WD40 will take it off. Just don't use it on > plastics. I've never had a problem using it on painted > metal, but I've heard that it can take paint off if > used too long. The basic trick with solvents is - > start with a little, and do it quickly. My father was a car dealer in the '50s in Texas, where a few years in the sun can completely chalk the paint job. He says it was common practice among used car dealers to polish such cars with brake fluid. It would really restore the shine, right up till two weeks later when the paint started scaling off. Back on topic, it's amazing what a toothbrush or a soft tile brush will do with some good dish soap and water. And lots of elbow grease, of course. Doc From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Jun 25 08:14:51 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 06:14:51 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <467FBFCB.3000705@garlic.com> Richard wrote: > In article <467E1E2B.6030404 at gmail.com>, > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > >> If you write *any* code at all on Windows, you can expect to crash the >> OS fairly regularly. > > I've written code on a Windows box since 1996-ish and have only > crashed my machine once due to my code and that was because I fed > bogus data to a beta 3D driver. I second what Mike Stein said: if > your Windows computer is crashing on you regularly, stop ****ing > it up and get a professional to come in and fix it for you. Yes. When a professional has problems, hire a professional to fix the damned thing. Sometimes it's just better to take the thing out back of the barn and put it out of your misery. And as for me, life is so much better now that I no longer have to deal with any windoze system. Can't pay me enough to even look at one, anymore. == jd A watched proton never decays. From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 23:15:11 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: TRS-80 video/disk interface <-> model 100 cable Message-ID: <726126.14645.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have the TRS-80 disk/video interface module, but not the cable to connect to my model 100. Does anyone know how to make one? Thanks- Steve. --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 25 23:25:18 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:25:18 -0600 Subject: What didn't happen in the future -- well off topic In-Reply-To: References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4680952E.7040500@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I guess the sales of new vinyl records are increasing because it is a > dead format? I suspect it because a few people have the time for music and/or quality equipment. I want to know if "Listener Fatigue" is on the rise and that stops people from listening to music often? > Why is it that a group so obsessed with old technology can't accept the > possibility that another old technology is making a comeback? If you > don't believe me, fine, spend a little time researching the subject. CD > sales are down, yet digital AND vinyl sales are up. Is this just a > momentary blip? Those who make their living selling them would like to > know. One theory is it is a backlash to not actually owning a physical > object when you buy a music download. Many of the people purchasing > LP's weren't even born when the CD was introduced. > > BTW, I do agree that CD's are dying. I typically listen to them once on > the stereo before loading them into iTunes. PS. Cheap CD's often have lower quality music on them. So does everybody have EARTH SHAKING 5 CHANNEL systems for YOUR MOVIES? The other reason music is going down hill. > Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 25 23:27:18 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:27:18 -0700 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <46808794.5060405@gmail.com> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <467FFEFA.11044.1D3D769@cclist.sydex.com> <46808794.5060405@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:27 PM -0400 6/25/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >I'm under 30, and I still buy vinyl. Hell, there are still small >production runs in 78RPM Victrola records and I buy those too. Where on earth are you finding new 78's? I've heard rumors of such but not found them. Now there is something I suspect I don't want to know how much they cost! I assume like many of the last 78's produced in the 50's as they faded out they're vinyl? Are these being produced for people with 78RPM Jukeboxes? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From fernande at internet1.net Mon Jun 25 23:28:41 2007 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 00:28:41 -0400 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <46800C8D.15208.208DE7A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <6.2.3.4.2.20070625202504.06c88728@mail> <46800C8D.15208.208DE7A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <468095F9.6020709@internet1.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you have a wood chopping board in your kitchen, mineral oil is the > right stuff to keep it in shape. Vegetable oils will go rancid. I'd prefer not to eat petroleum oils! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 25 23:36:09 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:36:09 -0700 Subject: Yahoo "Web Beacons" Message-ID: It looks like Yahoo has found a new way of tracking people online, I'd recommend going to the page for details on their "Web Beacons" and to find a link to opt out. You apparently need to do this for each browser you use. http://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/webbeacons/details.html Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 25 23:37:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 00:37:22 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <467FF006.8020906@srv.net> <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706260037.22401.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 25 June 2007 13:14, Liam Proven wrote: > On 25/06/07, Kevin Handy wrote: > > If I push the start button on floorboard of my car to shut it down (I > > don't see any "Start key" anywhere), I'd expect a lot of ground gear > > metal in return, plus the need to replace the starter. > > It's on the *floor*? Coo. > > I am a biker myself - pedal and motorcycles both - and don't know much > about cars, but I don't believe I've ever seen a car with a starter > button. Maybe in a museum. I forget where I ran across one on the floor. My grandfather had a 1950 Ford that had a starter button on the dash, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 25 23:43:39 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 00:43:39 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706260043.39786.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 25 June 2007 13:29, Liam Proven wrote: > On 23/06/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > The First Off-the-Shelf Microcomputer > > > > On Sat, 23 Jun 2007, Lance Lyon wrote: > > > Errrr.... wasn't that the PET 20001 ? > > > > Possibly. > > > > Here we go again. > > What does "First Off-the-shelf Microcomputer" mean? > > > > First to go into design? > > First announced? > > First demo'd? > > First prototyped? > > First to enter production? > > First "released"? (what does THAT mean?) > > First that could be ordered? > > First delivered? > > First that could be purchased for cash in a store? > > Fair point and some good questions. > > For me, personally, what mattered was the first one under ?100. (At > that time, in the early 1980s, under US$100 would have done as a > comparison.) As far as I heard back then, Apple did the first machine > for under $1000. Very nice for those rich Americans in the prosperous > north or coastal states. Pure fantasy for a middle-class English kid > in the Europe. That was possibly the family's net income for several > months. You make a very good point here. I remember watching the prices of TTL chips in ads in the back of Popular Electronics and other magazines, and watching them continue to drop, this being before LSTTL and all the variants that came later on. When computers came along, again I watched prices, as before that it was only big iron, only available to those who had followed the proper path (I didn't :-), and again, the systems were out of my reach. I also noticed a trend that capabilities increased, features were added, but there seemed to be a "floor" of some sort below which prices didn't seem to want to go. At least not until computers and the parts to make them with turned into commodities, which is what we have now. I never did reach the point of being able to afford $1000+ for any of those systems, though I did end up with a bunch of those systems much later on, when they weren't considered to have any value. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 26 00:09:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:09:47 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <468095F9.6020709@internet1.net> References: , <46800C8D.15208.208DE7A@cclist.sydex.com>, <468095F9.6020709@internet1.net> Message-ID: <46803D2B.14032.2C6C5A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jun 2007 at 0:28, C Fernandez wrote: > I'd prefer not to eat petroleum oils! Unless you're accustomed to drinking a liter at a time (that'd send you running for the loo!), mineral oil passes through the GI tract without being absorbed to any appreciable degree--pretty much like the silica in table salt (probably better than Kosher salt, which often uses sodium ferrocyanide). Mineral oil is used in medical preparations, laxatives and candy. It's pretty hard to avoid. The tiny bit on your cutting board won't amount to a hill of beans. If you use carbon-steel knives in your cooking, wiping them with mineral oil after washing will keep them from rusting. It's also used as transformer oil. And you can submerge your PC with it for cooling: http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php Really great stuff. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 26 00:23:25 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 01:23:25 -0400 Subject: What didn't happen in the future References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 9:13 PM Subject: Re: What didn't happen in the future > > I hate to tell you, but you just proved how out of touch you really are! :^) > > That is one of the things that is so strange about the resurgence of Vinyl > > records, it is largely the under 30 crowd that is driving it. > > ???? > > Vinyl is dead. CDs are dying. Did anyone notice that the DJ at the > wedding party next to the unofficial VCFeast Friday dinner was > spinning mp3s? He was not ahead of his time. He is in it. > > I am not going to waste anymore time with this religious fight. > > -- > Will, the other radio DJ on this list. While I could care less what media people like (Vinyl, tape, cd, etc) I do wonder why people rip to MP3 in this age of cheap storage, why not use something lossless and capture all of the original music? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 25 17:47:29 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:47:29 -0400 Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) Message-ID: <0JK700CDWR9W5IO1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) > From: "Antonio Carlini" > Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:58:01 +0100 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >der Mouse wrote: >> Ah. Then "undocumented (as far as I can tell)" here really means "I >> haven't found the right manual yet". >> >> I'll keep your message around and go digging for the scans you refer >> to some time when I have the leisure. Thanks for the pointer! > >Before I forget I should say that slipping "78032" into Manx gets >you the CPU Chip guide and the KA630-AA User's Guide (which is >equivalent to what was later usually called the CPU Technical >Manual). > >Antonio Then again there are odball hardware like the DEC ADVICE a MVII(78032) on a board for in curcuit testing and development. I'm still hunting for manual for that board or even a schematic. Allison From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 26 01:23:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 02:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> <006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200706260634.CAA18960@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > While I could[n't] care less what media people like (Vinyl, tape, cd, > etc) I do wonder why people rip to MP3 in this age of cheap storage, > why not use something lossless and capture all of the original music? Well, personally, I don't. Just a few days ago I replaced a "200G" (actually more like 186G) drive with a "400G" (ditto 372G) drive to hold ripped CDs - the first thing I do with a new audio CD is to rip a copy. (No, I don't distribute the result.) But I speculate that people do it for many reasons: (1) habit; (2) not everyone can afford hundreds of gigs of disk for their machines; (3) mp3 is good enough - or at least is perceived as good enough - for many people, who don't have playback systems capable of exposing the difference between the original and the mp3, or who don't have ears capable of hearing the difference. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 26 01:48:04 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 23:48:04 -0700 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> <006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: At 1:23 AM -0400 6/26/07, Teo Zenios wrote: >While I could care less what media people like (Vinyl, tape, cd, etc) I do >wonder why people rip to MP3 in this age of cheap storage, why not use >something lossless and capture all of the original music? This almost brings it back on topic :^) Personally I think if someone is going to take the time to rip a non-digital format they should do it in as high of quality as possible and keep that original lossless undoctored source file. I'd also recommend keeping a copy of the lossless cleaned up file as well (what can I say, I'm only doing this with 78's and it takes a lot of work to clean some of those up). I convert them to MP3 to put on my iPod. While I am keeping copies, I wouldn't be to surprised to learn that the 78's outlast the digital copies I make. If I was ripping vinyl I'd just about expect it. With the digital copies you have all the same problems facing you that we do with the preservation of classic computer data. At this point one of my major attempts to preserve the data is to keep it on multiple Hard drives. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 02:46:32 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:46:32 -0400 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <467FFEFA.11044.1D3D769@cclist.sydex.com> <46808794.5060405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4680C458.7020501@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I'm under 30, and I still buy vinyl. Hell, there are still small >> production runs in 78RPM Victrola records and I buy those too. > > Where on earth are you finding new 78's? I've heard rumors of such but > not found them. Now there is something I suspect I don't want to know > how much they cost! I assume like many of the last 78's produced in the > 50's as they faded out they're vinyl? Are these being produced for > people with 78RPM Jukeboxes? You need to get to know your local independent record store owner. Not just the employees. The proprietor. They hear about new pressings long before they happen, and they can reserve copies with the label if you're interested. If you know them well enough, sometimes they'll even stock a copy of a disc if they think you'll like it. A good repeat customer is worth more than gold to them. I pay about $50/disc, and they're usually recordings you can't get on vinyl or CD. And I would guess that you're probably right in that many of them go to jukebox owners, although there are also some pressings that might not "fit in" in a jukebox. I mostly buy old recordings of classical music. The other music I'm interested in, I can get on FLAC, CD or Vinyl. Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 26 02:51:28 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 00:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <468088BC.2040603@gmail.com> References: <875986.16084.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <468088BC.2040603@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Kerosene? Naptha? I'd suggest the most gentle > >> alternative > >> for tape goo is vegetable oil. > > > > Vegetable oil? Never heard that one before - might > > work. I typically use goo gone, it's wonderful stuff, > > although it is hard on plastics. It's great for the > > Using a light vegetable oil (canola?) on tape gunk is a *very* old > trick. I don't think it actually dissolved anything, but it definitely > lubricates the scraping-off of the gunk so you don't scratch the plastic. I always keep a bottle of naptha (zippo or ronsonol wick lighter fluids) for dissolving goo. Offhand I can't think of anything it'll ruin. Stay away from ketones. Vegetable oil is also good. I find peanut butter much more convenient that fluid oils -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From classiccmp at discordance.org.uk Tue Jun 26 03:19:57 2007 From: classiccmp at discordance.org.uk (Adrian Burgess) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:19:57 +0100 Subject: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? In-Reply-To: <467FEB4D.5080706@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0JJU00KW00S11ZE4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4676A37C.2040000@dunnington.plus.com> <20070625143308.GA886@discordance.org.uk> <467FE426.7040309@dunnington.plus.com> <467FEB4D.5080706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20070626081956.GB886@discordance.org.uk> On Mon, Jun 25, 2007 at 05:20:29PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Aha, I've found out where the ARM info came from. According to ARM's > website (dated late 2005), the PSP has an ARM 9 core and the Playstation > 3 has an ARM9E. > > http://www.arm.com/markets/home_solutions/armpp/8732.html > http://www.arm.com/markets/home_solutions/armpp/15672.html > Ah, looking at those it looks like they're in the WiFi chipset :) From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Jun 25 23:15:26 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:15:26 -0700 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? In-Reply-To: References: <200706251440.00873.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <468092DE.7070704@garlic.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> Has anyone got any recommendations for PCB CAD software on Linux? > > > PCB for layout: > > http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ > Tried pcb. Run it... Nothing happens until a few dozen clicks here and there later, then segfaults. On two vastly different boxen. Works for everyone else... Maybe I have to wait for the Grand Conjunction and light incense? == jd "You can bring any calculator you like to the midterm, as long as it doesn't dim the lights when you turn it on." -- Hepler, Systems Design 182 From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jun 26 04:29:16 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 10:29:16 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070625202759.06a733e0@mail> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070625202759.06a733e0@mail> Message-ID: <200706261029.16054.gordon@gjcp.net> On Tuesday 26 June 2007 02:29:36 John Foust wrote: > At 12:14 PM 6/25/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > >The real point is that the Windows "start button" is not analagous or > >homologous to a mechanical start button on an engine. You may as well > >compare a button on Windows to a button on your cardigan. They're both > >"buttons" but they have nothing in common. > > Just to confuse matters, today's hybrid Toyota Prius does not > require the "key" in the "ignition" - it will start if it > detects the key in your pocket - and the "start" button > is up on the dash, a round button perhaps 1 1/2" in size, > with the circle-with-a-vertical-line icon on it. But it > won't start unless your foot is on the brake. Then you can > move the (clearly electronic) gear shift into forward or reverse. > > There's a separate rectangular "Park" button. And when you pull > up to a stop light, you can feel the entire car shut down > except for the accessory power. > > There's a central 4x6" video display, too. Shows a rear-view video > when you're in reverse, while you're driving it has all sorts of > MPG monitoring graphs and animated graphics. Can't help but wonder how more efficient a Prius would be if it didn't have all this un-necessary heavy crap and batteries and screens, and just had a nice little 1.4 diesel engine. The average fuel consumption for them seems to be about 45mpg. If my girlfriend's VW Polo (about the same size) got through fuel that fast, I'd be looking for little petrolly puddles underneath it. Gordon From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 07:37:18 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 08:37:18 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706261029.16054.gordon@gjcp.net> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070625202759.06a733e0@mail> <200706261029.16054.gordon@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0706260537y3161e4d2v9dc284f938d00ae8@mail.gmail.com> > > The average fuel consumption for them seems to be about 45mpg. If my > girlfriend's VW Polo (about the same size) got through fuel that fast, I'd > be > looking for little petrolly puddles underneath it. The mid-90's Geo Metro XFi got around 50 (US) MPG, and can get 60 with some quick modifications. Of course, nobody bought them, but they fetch a good price on eBay now. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 07:53:27 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 08:53:27 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com> OK, branching off another thread. There probably aren't many, but there are a few clones that I'd consider "interesting." I'd say the PCjr counts, it was a pretty strange system - the unsuccessful IIgs of the PC world. Sidecar expansion slots, IR keyboard and cartridges... The last of the PS/2's had some strange designs. The 95 was really strange - a fold-out power supply design with a spring loaded plunger power supply connector. C2 level hardware, which meant if you forgot the BIOS password you're SOL. I'd count the whole MCA based PS/2 line as a string of oddities in the PC world. There were some really odd Japanese designs as well. My favorite is the FM Townes, which was a hybrid PC and game console. It ran a proprietary OS, but could run language-localized Windows. It also had an oddball graphics system that could overlay multiple screen modes over each other, so you could play full-motion video games with text overlay. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 26 08:01:19 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 08:01:19 -0500 Subject: LIST ADMIN: Off-topicness References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com><575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com><6.2.3.4.2.20070625202759.06a733e0@mail><200706261029.16054.gordon@gjcp.net> <5f7d1b0e0706260537y3161e4d2v9dc284f938d00ae8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005301c7b7f2$1c6e2e60$6500a8c0@BILLING> I haven't been able to read the list much for the past few weeks due to a commercial project. Fortunately a few people emailed me privately about the signal to noise ratio, and now I come back and read the list a bit and I'm completely aghast. I am seeing a huge amount of off-topicness that is completely inappropriate. If I have to keep setting 'emergency moderation mode' on every few months - I might as well just leave it on permanently. I'd hate to see the relative few who can't keep 90% on-topic ruin that 10% privilege for everyone else. Get with the program people. Jay West From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 26 08:15:59 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:15:59 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0706260537y3161e4d2v9dc284f938d00ae8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706261316.l5QDG3dS077605@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 08:37:18 -0400, Jason McBrien wrote: >> >> The average fuel consumption for them seems to be about 45mpg. If my >> girlfriend's VW Polo (about the same size) got through fuel that fast, I'd >> be >> looking for little petrolly puddles underneath it. >The mid-90's Geo Metro XFi got around 50 (US) MPG, and can get 60 with some >quick modifications. Of course, nobody bought them, but they fetch a good >price on eBay now. In 1989 I had a job that rewuired me to drive 100 miles a day to work and back. I had a old 6.6L Trans-Am I replaced with a new Geo Metro Lsi, the gas savings alone covered the car payment and the insurance. Ended up giving the lilttle 3 cylinder wounder car to my kid when he got his license in 94 when I stopped the long commute. The geo averaged about 42mph, and the twin cam Saturn I replaced it with averages over 30mph, it has run 13+ years and has never failed me. I am looking for a car with "more battery" that I can charge using 110v as I rarely drive more than 100 miles in a day any more and see no reason for wasteing perto around town. Where is the MrFusion unit I am waiting for :) Bob From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 26 08:23:25 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:23:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: spectrum hidden menu on reset Message-ID: <853986.16789.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> hi, i have a spectrum 128K +2 which has been put somewhere "safe" by my parents. When i used it and hit the reset key (by the joystick ports on the left side) i would sometimes end up a secret debug (?) menu. I never altered anything when it came up (a mate did and ruined his spectrum!) and simply pressed reset again. Im just curious to see if anyone knows how to make it appear on reset. What sort of things did it alter? - Andrew B (via mobile phone) From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 26 08:35:34 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:35:34 -0400 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? In-Reply-To: <468092DE.7070704@garlic.com> References: <200706251440.00873.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> <468092DE.7070704@garlic.com> Message-ID: <200706260935.34277.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 26 June 2007 00:15, jd wrote: > Mike Loewen wrote: > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> Has anyone got any recommendations for PCB CAD software on Linux? > > > > PCB for layout: > > > > http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ > > Tried pcb. Run it... Nothing happens until a few dozen clicks > here and there later, then segfaults. On two vastly different boxen. > > Works for everyone else... > > Maybe I have to wait for the Grand Conjunction and light incense? When I've had this happen with downloaded software it's usually because I've tried to download a binary and there was some library incompatibility with my system. Downloading the source and compiling it against what libraries I had on hand usually fixed the problem. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From g at kurico.com Tue Jun 26 09:28:48 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:28:48 -0500 Subject: Atari collection for sale in Austin Message-ID: <468122A0.5040309@kurico.com> Someone in Austin has a largish collection of old 8bit Atari stuff for sale. Price seems a bit steep to me, but then again maybe I don't appreciate the Atari like I should :) Local pickup only. http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/359890829.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 09:37:17 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:37:17 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: David Griffith ---snip--- >I always keep a bottle of naptha (zippo or ronsonol wick lighter fluids) >for dissolving goo. Offhand I can't think of anything it'll ruin. Stay >away from ketones. Vegetable oil is also good. I find peanut butter much >more convenient that fluid oils Hi Also try melted butter. It seems to remove things as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Tue Jun 26 08:40:34 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:40:34 +0100 Subject: spectrum hidden menu on reset In-Reply-To: <853986.16789.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <853986.16789.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200706261440.34285.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Tuesday 26 June 2007 14:23:25 Andrew Burton wrote: > hi, i have a spectrum 128K +2 which has been put somewhere "safe" > by my parents. When i used it and hit the reset key (by the joystick ports > on the left side) i would sometimes end up a secret debug (?) menu. I never > altered anything when it came up (a mate did and ruined his spectrum!) and > simply pressed reset again. Im just curious to see if anyone knows how to > make it appear on reset. What sort of things did it alter? - Andrew B (via > mobile phone) I can't see how. There wasn't any NVRAM in the Spectrum +2 that would hold settings in any way that would persist over a reset. Gordon From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 10:14:11 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:14:11 +0100 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706260814hf175c34x726bc96f7a80e04f@mail.gmail.com> On 26/06/07, Jason McBrien wrote: > OK, branching off another thread. There probably aren't many, but there are > a few clones that I'd consider "interesting." I'd say the PCjr counts, it > was a pretty strange system - the unsuccessful IIgs of the PC world. Sidecar > expansion slots, IR keyboard and cartridges... > > The last of the PS/2's had some strange designs. The 95 was really strange - > a fold-out power supply design with a spring loaded plunger power supply > connector. C2 level hardware, which meant if you forgot the BIOS password > you're SOL. I'd count the whole MCA based PS/2 line as a string of oddities > in the PC world. > > There were some really odd Japanese designs as well. My favorite is the FM > Townes, which was a hybrid PC and game console. It ran a proprietary OS, but > could run language-localized Windows. It also had an oddball graphics system > that could overlay multiple screen modes over each other, so you could play > full-motion video games with text overlay. Agreed, especially with the PS/2s. Lovely machines - I still have an 80-A21 and a 55slc. Alas I never saw the later ones. How about the SGI Visual Workstations? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGI_Visual_Workstation Also lovely machines. Beautiful design & build. Not very PC-compatible, but ran Windows NT. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 10:25:07 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:25:07 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <20070625135646.T83660@shell.lmi.net> References: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> <20070625135646.T83660@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0706260825o2aa9a09r6ea151f780f6d83@mail.gmail.com> On 25/06/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > I remember one time in the ealry 1980s checking into exchange rates, > particularly dollar/yen for Epson HC20, RC20, etc. At that time, a USD > was about 300 yen, and there were IIRC 2.85 USD per British Pound. It > sounds like Timex was giving us an exceptional deal, relative to Sinclair > in the UK. Yup. > ISTR a base price for Apple around $1200 USD > I was running a successful business at the time, so my funds for following > up that particular fantasy were substantially better than when I was a > kid. But AIUI they were popular home computers in the US? > Well, there does seem to have been some game-playing with prices in other > markets. The TRS80 was $599 in the USA, but $399 without monitor and tape > recorder. > > Were ALL micros cheaper in the US than in the UK? Well, the way it worked from when I was in my teens (mid-1980s) until fairly recently was, to convert a US price to a UK one, take off the $ sign and replace it with a ? sign. It still happens today. E.g. Windows Vista Premium Amazon.com: US$219 Amazon.co.uk: UK?179 -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 10:29:54 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:29:54 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706260829x57b095e5x5c97e8529f20e453@mail.gmail.com> On 25/06/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > Tony, your HP sounds like the first single-unit ready-to-use desktop > > computer, but that's not the same thing. I bet it was appallingly > > expensive, and with a calculator display what it could do would be > > very limited - a great deal less than a 1K ZX-81, I would think...? > > I'll grant that it was expensive (I would guess about $6K). But it > certainly wasn;t limited and could do a lot more than a 1K ZX81. Depends what you mean by "do more". In the context of a personal computer, talking late 70s/early 80s, it's users writing their own programs in BASIC, pretty much. The ZX81 had strings, floating point maths, and while no full screen editor, it could at least show 32x25 or something characters, so you could edit text, play chess, or if you believe the ads, run a nuclear power station, as I recall. ;?) > The built-in display was a 1-line 32 character alphanumeric unit. Hardly > a 'calculator display'. In general you linked up the 9866 printer if you > wanted a larger 'display' for things like program listings. If you wanted > graphives 9and were rich!), you eitehr linked up a plotter -- there was a > pltoter ROM add-on to BASIC that added useful statements to drive the > plotter -- or you got the HPIB interface, an HP1350 'graphics translator' > (vector display generator) and an HP1311 monitor. I am wondering why you > consider the dispaly to be an important part of the machine, though. This > thing was not designed for games, after all. It was designed for > scientific data processing, data logging, control, and the like. For > which yuo probably don't need more than a 1-line display. But is data logging or whatever what a /personal computer/ does? The HP couldn't even display a graph, and if you need to take the price up into 5 figures to draw one on paper, I'm not sure that's a "personal computer" any more. I wouldn't like to try to edit a program of even 4K on a 1 line display. Hell, I didn't even buy a Psion Organizer until it had at least a 4 line display, and that was ludicrously cramped. > I have no idea what the minimum amount of memory was, possibly 4K bytes. > AFAIK the maximum on a standard HP machines was 16K. Oh yess, and unlike > Sinclair's RAM, it didn't wobble :-) :?D Fair point! (But there was always Blutak!) > The BASIC was a lot more powerful than Sinxlair's offering too, if you > added the option ROMs. You had matrices, string variables, low-level I/O, > etc. Ahhh, but the price is receding further from the "personal" domain, isn't it? > Put it this way. I have a ZX81, I also have an HP9830. I know which I'd > rather use. (!) -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 10:31:25 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:31:25 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <200706260043.39786.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> <200706260043.39786.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <575131af0706260831x3547710bj3d4b502063720401@mail.gmail.com> On 26/06/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > You make a very good point here. I remember watching the prices of TTL chips > in ads in the back of Popular Electronics and other magazines, and watching > them continue to drop, this being before LSTTL and all the variants that > came later on. > > When computers came along, again I watched prices, as before that it was > only big iron, only available to those who had followed the proper path (I > didn't :-), and again, the systems were out of my reach. > > I also noticed a trend that capabilities increased, features were added, but > there seemed to be a "floor" of some sort below which prices didn't seem to > want to go. At least not until computers and the parts to make them with > turned into commodities, which is what we have now. > > I never did reach the point of being able to afford $1000+ for any of those > systems, though I did end up with a bunch of those systems much later on, > when they weren't considered to have any value. Yep, me too. I don't collect 8-bitters 'cos I haven't the room, but I have every major 16-bit and 32-bit home machine of the 1980s. Tens of thousands of pounds' worth back then. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 10:36:50 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:36:50 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467FBCD9.19628.D1893B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <81579.11118.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <467FF006.8020906@srv.net> <575131af0706251014x5217bb97w819d9f791cd6efa4@mail.gmail.com> <467FBCD9.19628.D1893B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706260836m5913d4e3x512e40bed0169f81@mail.gmail.com> On 25/06/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Jun 2007 at 18:14, Liam Proven wrote: > > > I am a biker myself - pedal and motorcycles both - and don't know much > > about cars, but I don't believe I've ever seen a car with a starter > > button. Maybe in a museum. > > Liam, you must not be old enough. Most cars made before 1951 or so > had one--I clearly recall the one on my aunt's 1950 Hudson. I turn 40 in about 5 months, so I'm not that young any more! But American cars are /weird/ compared to the rest of the world. (I live in Europe and have travelled extensively there, grew up in Africa and have visited Asia as well as N America.) Automatic transmission seems ubiquitous, which AFAICT is pretty much unique to N America, /but/ most people still drive these huge, tank-like petrol-guzzling monsters, whereas the rest of the world (that can afford new cars at all) prefers smaller, lighter, more efficient machines which cope better with traffic and produce less waste and environmental damage - though that's incidental to their owners for the large part, what matters is that they are cheaper.) > > The real point is that the Windows "start button" is not analagous or > > homologous to a mechanical start button on an engine. You may as well > > compare a button on Windows to a button on your cardigan. They're both > > "buttons" but they have nothing in common. > > An unfortunate labeling. It really should be notated "Main Menu" or > something similar. But that's just nitpicking. I never use "Start" > to initiate a system shutdown--I prefer Alt-F4 with the focus on the > desktop. It's too fiddly that way, but then, I mainly drive Windows with the keyboard anyway. And since I prefer and use 20yo IBM Model M keyboards, I don't have a Windows key, either - so it's Ctrl-Esc, up, return, return. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 26 11:22:27 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:22:27 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0706260831x3547710bj3d4b502063720401@mail.gmail.com> References: <200706260043.39786.rtellason@verizon.net> <575131af0706260831x3547710bj3d4b502063720401@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706261222.27144.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 26 June 2007 11:31, Liam Proven wrote: > Yep, me too. I don't collect 8-bitters 'cos I haven't the room, but I > have every major 16-bit and 32-bit home machine of the 1980s. Tens of > thousands of pounds' worth back then. I probably have tens of thousands of pounds of machines too... I'd think it'd take a lot of "home" computers to reach that much weight. Oh wait, you mean Pounds Sterling. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jun 26 10:39:11 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:39:11 -0300 Subject: WANTED: TRS-80 video/disk interface <-> model 100 cable Message-ID: <01C7B7EF.1F216EE0@MSE_D03> -----------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:15:11 -0700 (PDT) From: steven stengel Subject: WANTED: TRS-80 video/disk interface <-> model 100 cable I have the TRS-80 disk/video interface module, but not the cable to connect to my model 100. Does anyone know how to make one? Thanks- Steve. -----------------Reply: It looks simple enough; just take a 40c IDE HD cable and crimp a 40-pin DIP header on the end... But there's a catch: The connectors will not be offset the standard way relative to each other, i.e. you need to swap the even and odd pins somehow. There are two ways of doing that: 1 - Separate all the wires at one end and swap them when you insert them in the connector; put the striped wire in the second slot, the second in the first, the third in the fourth, the fourth in the third, etc. 2 - Crimp the 40-pin DIP header on an IDE cable without swapping; Get a second IDE cable and a set of 40 header pins such as you would find on an old motherboard (make sure they're long enough) and use them to connect the two cables; this will give you the offset and also a way to connect and dis- connect without opening the cover and possibly damaging the delicate 40-pin DIP header. If you make the M100 cable the right length you can fasten the header to the back of the M100 with DS tape and effectively have the same setup as the M102 & 200. If, as usual, I haven't made it very clear, contact me off-list & I'll send you some pictures. BTW, if you're new to the M100 world, check out club100.org and the user group there; lots of folks always willing to help. mike From austin at ozpass.co.uk Tue Jun 26 11:56:38 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:56:38 +0100 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 26/6/07 15:37, "dwight elvey" wrote: > Hi > Also try melted butter. It seems to remove things as well. > Dwight Peanut butter and melted butter? Are we into the realms of pulling my leg now perchance, or perhaps an anti-SGI stance keen to turn my crimson into a squashed picnic? ;-) I'll have a crack at it with naptha first, and then a little WD40, all on inconspicuous areas*. -Austin * Although finding an "inconspicuous area" on the 3 foot cubed bright red beast is, perhaps, a contradiction in terms! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 26 12:16:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:16:49 -0600 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca> Austin Pass wrote: > I'll have a crack at it with naptha first, and then a little WD40, all on > inconspicuous areas*. Some how I guess WD40 needs to be OFF-TOPIC this list because I don't think it will work for anything. Let us know what does work. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 12:23:15 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:23:15 -0400 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46814B83.9000303@gmail.com> Austin Pass wrote: >> Hi >> Also try melted butter. It seems to remove things as well. > > Peanut butter and melted butter? Are we into the realms of pulling my leg > now perchance, or perhaps an anti-SGI stance keen to turn my crimson into a > squashed picnic? ;-) > > I'll have a crack at it with naptha first, and then a little WD40, all on > inconspicuous areas*. If you have canola oil around the house, it's a lot gentler and less messy than WD40. You can always try WD40 later. We aren't pulling your leg. Vegetable and animal oils work fine. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 26 12:19:21 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:19:21 -0400 Subject: Heh... Message-ID: <200706261319.22026.rtellason@verizon.net> Sounds a little familiar... ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > How many group members does it take to change a light bulb? > > One to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been > changed. > > Fourteen to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the > light bulb could have been changed differently. > > Seven to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. > > Seven more to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing > light bulbs. > > Three to correct spelling/grammar errors. > > Six to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb". > > Another six to condemn those six as stupid. > > Fifteen to claim experience in the lighting industry and give the correct > spelling. > > Nineteen to post that this group is not about light bulbs and to please take > this discussion to a light bulb (or light bulb) forum. > > Eleven to defend the posting to the group saying that we all use light bulbs > and therefore the posts are relevant to this group. > > Thirty-six to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where > to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this > technique, and what brands are faulty. > > Seven to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs. > > Four to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and then post the > corrected URL. > > Three to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this > group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group. > > Thirteen to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety > including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too". > > Five to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot > handle the light bulb controversy. > > Four to say "Didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" > > Thirteen to say "Do a Google search on light bulbs before posting > questions about light bulbs." > > Three to tell a funny story about their cat and a light bulb. > > - - - AND - - - > > One group lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now > with something unrelated and start it all over again -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 12:39:04 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:39:04 -0400 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Austin Pass wrote: >> I'll have a crack at it with naptha first, and then a little WD40, all on >> inconspicuous areas*. > Some how I guess WD40 needs to be OFF-TOPIC this list because I > don't think it will work for anything. Let us know what does work. I beg to differ. WD40 works on a lot of stuff, but it usually works better as a solvent than as a lubricant. Usually, when I need to use penetrating lube on a rusted part, I use WD40 to dissolve the rust, and then I apply the lube. Peace... Sridhar From dbwood at kc.rr.com Tue Jun 26 12:50:15 2007 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (Douglas Wood) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:50:15 -0500 Subject: Heh... References: <200706261319.22026.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00b701c7b81a$7414d010$697ba8c0@epicis> Me, too! :^) Douglas Wood ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:19 PM Subject: Heh... > Sounds a little familiar... > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > >> How many group members does it take to change a light bulb? >> >> One to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been >> changed. >> >> Fourteen to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the >> light bulb could have been changed differently. >> >> Seven to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. >> >> Seven more to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing >> light bulbs. >> >> Three to correct spelling/grammar errors. >> >> Six to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb". >> >> Another six to condemn those six as stupid. >> >> Fifteen to claim experience in the lighting industry and give the correct >> spelling. >> >> Nineteen to post that this group is not about light bulbs and to please >> take >> this discussion to a light bulb (or light bulb) forum. >> >> Eleven to defend the posting to the group saying that we all use light >> bulbs >> and therefore the posts are relevant to this group. >> >> Thirty-six to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, >> where >> to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this >> technique, and what brands are faulty. >> >> Seven to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs. >> >> Four to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and then post the >> corrected URL. >> >> Three to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to >> this >> group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group. >> >> Thirteen to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety >> including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too". >> >> Five to post to the group that they will no longer post because they >> cannot >> handle the light bulb controversy. >> >> Four to say "Didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" >> >> Thirteen to say "Do a Google search on light bulbs before posting >> questions about light bulbs." >> >> Three to tell a funny story about their cat and a light bulb. >> >> - - - AND - - - >> >> One group lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now >> with something unrelated and start it all over again > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by > lies. --James > M Dakin > > __________ NOD32 2355 (20070626) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 26 13:16:33 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:16:33 -0500 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46815801.6070608@mdrconsult.com> Austin Pass wrote: > Peanut butter and melted butter? Are we into the realms of pulling my leg > now perchance, or perhaps an anti-SGI stance keen to turn my crimson into a > squashed picnic? ;-) Dunno about melted butter, but peanut butter was the Real Deal for getting gum out of my kids' hair. > * Although finding an "inconspicuous area" on the 3 foot cubed bright red > beast is, perhaps, a contradiction in terms! The inside surface of a skin, maybe? Doc From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 26 13:31:32 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Austin Pass wrote: > On 26/6/07 15:37, "dwight elvey" wrote: > > > Hi > > Also try melted butter. It seems to remove things as well. > > Dwight > > Peanut butter and melted butter? Are we into the realms of pulling my leg > now perchance, or perhaps an anti-SGI stance keen to turn my crimson into a > squashed picnic? ;-) Because peanut butter is a paste, it's less messy than other oils. It also pulls the glue debris into itself to make cleanup easier afterwards. > I'll have a crack at it with naptha first, and then a little WD40, all on > inconspicuous areas*. Naptha will probably do the job nicely. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 14:08:04 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <218034.93825.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> OI I'm not gonna read through this whole thread. The stuph is called AFTA, available at most hardware stores prolly and even Home Depot/Lowe's and such. ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 26 14:04:24 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com> References: <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca> <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706261909.PAA23298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I beg to differ. WD40 works on a lot of stuff, but it usually works > better as a solvent than as a lubricant. Or a...I'm not sure what the word is. A liquid with which one washes gunk out/off of something. A bike-shop guy once told me to never use WD40 as a lubricant for things bicycle, but that it works fine to wash dirt off (say) a chain, preparatory to lubricating it. (As lube, he recommended automatic transmission fluid - apparently it's made with a good grade of oil under very strict quality controls, and is widely/cheaply available.) Now, bicycles aren't computers, but it does seem to me that similar remarks should apply to anything with complicated mechanical parts, such as an ASR33 or a Selectric...though you might want to use grease rather than oil as the lube once you've washed it relatively clean. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 26 14:21:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:21:20 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com> References: , <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca>, <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <468104C0.31596.167F6E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jun 2007 at 13:39, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I beg to differ. WD40 works on a lot of stuff, but it usually works > better as a solvent than as a lubricant. This is on-topic as far as I can tell, if folks are depending on the lubricating qualities of WD-40. As much as the makers of WD-40 would like you to believe otherwise, WD-40 is not really much of a lubricant. It consists primarily of a solvent base (probably a close relative of kerosene) with some very light oil. Both will evaporate quickly enough under normal room- temperature conditions. As I understand it, the "WD" in "WD-40" stands for "Water Displacing"- -it's a good penetrating oil used to crack rusty bolts, but it shouldn't be depended upon as a long-term standard lubricant. If you need a lubricant in aerosol form, there are many choices in grease and oil that will do the job better than WD-40. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 26 14:16:31 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 20:16:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0706260829x57b095e5x5c97e8529f20e453@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Jun 26, 7 04:29:54 pm Message-ID: > > I'll grant that it was expensive (I would guess about $6K). But it > > certainly wasn;t limited and could do a lot more than a 1K ZX81. > > Depends what you mean by "do more". In the context of a personal > computer, talking late 70s/early 80s, it's users writing their own > programs in BASIC, pretty much. The ZX81 had strings, floating point > maths, and while no full screen editor, it could at least show 32x25 As I mentioend, string variables were an add-on ROM, which added all the normal string handling facilies. Floating point maths, with all the normal functions, was standard. > or something characters, so you could edit text, play chess, or if you > believe the ads, run a nuclear power station, as I recall. ;=AC) If you really wanted to do that sort of thing, you could link a larger display to the 9830. I doubt you could use it for editing the BASIC program, but you could certainly use it for displaying said program's output. > But is data logging or whatever what a /personal computer/ does? The AActually, I think a lot of the early 'pesonal' computers (meaning machines that didn't need an air-conditioned room and a computer department to run them) _were_ bought by scientists/engineers to process their results. Taking said resulta automatically and controlling the experiment was a naturual extension of this. > HP couldn't even display a graph, and if you need to take the price up Actually, you'd get a better resoution by printing caracters on the 'optional' 9866 pritner than you get out of a ZX81... > into 5 figures to draw one on paper, I'm not sure that's a "personal > computer" any more. I wouldn't like to try to edit a program of even > 4K on a 1 line display. Hell, I didn't even buy a Psion Organizer The reason I put 'optional' in quotes above is that just about everybody also bought the printer. I've never heard of a 9830 being seriously used without it, the interface was built-in and even a couple of the built-in commands _require_ a printer. At which point you print out the listing and use that for editing. > until it had at least a 4 line display, and that was ludicrously > cramped. > > > I have no idea what the minimum amount of memory was, possibly 4K bytes. > > AFAIK the maximum on a standard HP machines was 16K. Oh yess, and unlik= > e > > Sinclair's RAM, it didn't wobble :-) > > :=ACD Fair point! (But there was always Blutak!) I think this is the really big diffeernce. One thing that's very clear from other HP products of the time (and earlier) is that they were solid, they did what they claimed (and more), and they did it reliably. You could trust an HP9830 not to crash when it was controlling the nuclear power station :-) Same thing with pltting graphs. Rather than have a low-resolution block-graphics display, you added a plotter or an HP1350 and got enough resolution to produce a _useable_ graph -- not just a pretty picture. Of course it wasn't cheap, but... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 26 14:24:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:24:46 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <218034.93825.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <218034.93825.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4681058E.24254.16B1F2D@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jun 2007 at 12:08, Chris M wrote: > OI I'm not gonna read through this whole thread. The > stuph is called AFTA, available at most hardware > stores prolly and even Home Depot/Lowe's and such. NO! (shouting intentional) AFTA contains xylene, which can do a number on many plastics. See the MSDS at: http://www.wjgrosvenor.com/MSDS/afta/afta.htm Where's carbon tet when you really want it? Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 14:26:06 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <217787.29504.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > "I am still wondering why the IBM5100 gets > regarded as > > a significant > > machine when the HP9830 was a couple of years > ealier > > and had a very > > similar specificiation." > > > > In a word - exposure. HP stuff is oftentimes a > tad > > esoteric for the *usual* goofy collector or > whatever > > you call peeps who are into this stuff. > > OK, but how mwnay people rememebr the IBM5100 when > it came out? (I am not > talking about the 5150, the PC). If you can find out > about an obscure > (IMHO) IBM machine, then finding out about the > HP9830 shouldn't be any > harder. No, but, and good thing you mentioned the 5150, it makes the 5100 seem more *relevant* in some minds then, or at least more so then, the 9830. I'm just stating an observation of the way things typically work, I wasn't saying that's the way it should be. > > "http://www.hpmuseum.org/" > > > > Very well done site, a little hard to find > certain > > information though (for me anyway). > > I find the http://www.hpmuseum.net/ site to be more > useful for these > larger machines. Not as many pictures, but plenty of > useful manuals. Er, actually that was the one I meant :) > > If it won't crush the desk beneath it, I'd say > that > > qualifies it as a pc. > > Err, I've got a PDP8/e + TU56 DECtape + PC04 paper > tape on my desk... An 8/e? Meant to be rackmounted I would think. You *could* heap a couple of minis on some desks w/o destroying them I guess... > > > I think the better definition of a > > "off-the-shelf" puter is a puter you > > > can enter a shop, buy a system, bring it home. > No > > special questions, > > > training or instalation needed. And this should > be a > > complete computer, > > > > Again ancillary terminology is being introduced. > Who > > says a pc has to be "off the shelf" in the sense > that > > you can reach up and pull one down. Expressing > > availability as "off the shelf" seems a bit > arbitrary. > > No, I think that defintion is reasonable. With some > systems -- say if you > were putting together an S100 system -- you had to > do hardwre mods to > get the boards to work together properly. You had to > patch the OS to work > with your choiuce of I/O boards. And so on. The > thing about the TRS-80, > PET, etc and indeed the 9830 before them was that > you didn't have to know > anything about computers to be able to get them to > work. You just turned > them on, and provided there wasn;t a component > failure, you could use them. I wasn't commenting on *user friendliness* so much as the *introduction* of the term "off the shelf". Actually it was first introduced in the original post I guess! So I stand to be corrected. So if we go back and ask if the TRS-80 was the first OTS micro...truth is the assumption may be correct. But it wasn't the first micro (pre-packaged, easy to use, complete, woteva, etc.). The TRS-80 did in fact introduce a great many people to the micro due to it's wide availability, but probably not as wide as it could have due to a stigma often associated with them. The line was so stagnant - besides the CoCos (that must have carried the TRS-80 badge) the only other unit that had color capability I guess was the model 2000. None of the "classic" TRS-80s had color or even graphical capability IINM. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 14:34:06 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467FFBFB.5348.1C824E9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <156016.31849.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > I still love those old sci-fi "B" movies where a > computer is shown as > some piece of industrial control gear--chart > recorders and all. Off topic I'm sure, but I just received a complimentary copy of "Science Fiction of the 30's" from my local library. I've seen and perused it when I was much younger. Reprints from various pulp magazines. Don't know when I'd find time to do it any justice, but I can't help but wonder to what degree computers/AI found a place in stories of that era. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 14:36:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <46800C8D.15208.208DE7A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <443244.64157.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Or, if you have an aversion to spreading food on > your equipment, try > some mineral oil. If it doesn't do the job, it's > good for hairballs > > --in cats. ?. Therefore not recommended for use by humans? LOL LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 26 14:43:24 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:43:24 -0400 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <200706261909.PAA23298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200706261943.l5QJhRIx008823@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:04:24 -0400 (EDT), der Mouse wrote: >Now, bicycles aren't computers, but it does seem to me that similar >remarks should apply to anything with complicated mechanical parts, >such as an ASR33 or a Selectric...though you might want to use grease >rather than oil as the lube once you've washed it relatively clean. A can of Gunscrub from your faviorite Gun shop or sporting goods store, will wash an ASR33 clean, in preperation for some good old 30 wt. motor oil, applied to just about everything inside :) Since I can not buy Freon TF any more Gunscrub has become my spray cleaner of choice. often followed by a WD40 rinse. And then the lub of choice, from 5 wt. to Lubriplate depending on what is to be lubricated. I find I use a lot of silicone these days for nylon and plastics. But WD40 is most often used as a wash, never as a lubricant. Oh ya .... On topic ... I remenber :) WD40 is great for old printer ribbons, it loosens the unused dried ink on the edges which then migrates to the bare center of the ribbon through osmossis and gives an old dried out ribbon one more short burst of life. Usually, only to prove the printer still works to someone .... Who if they want it, can find their own source of new ribbons ... Or it's moved back into storage. Later Bob later Bob From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 26 14:44:34 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:44:34 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 25 June 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > The built-in display was a 1-line 32 character alphanumeric unit. > Hardly a 'calculator display'. In general you linked up the 9866 > printer if you wanted a larger 'display' for things like program > listings. If you wanted graphives 9and were rich!), you eitehr linked > up a plotter -- there was a pltoter ROM add-on to BASIC that added > useful statements to drive the plotter -- or you got the HPIB > interface, an HP1350 'graphics translator' (vector display generator) > and an HP1311 monitor. I am wondering why you consider the dispaly to > be an important part of the machine, though. This thing was not > designed for games, after all. It was designed for scientific data > processing, data logging, control, and the like. For which yuo > probably don't need more than a 1-line display. I'd say that if it can't play games (graphical or at least a multi-line text display), then it's not what I'd call a *home* computer. You could do that on an Apple 2, TRS-80, C64/VIC20/PET, IBM PC, etc. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 14:59:56 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706251010m164c0bb0x570b6cf6093bbd32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <248028.27018.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Liam Proven wrote: > If it runs IBM PC programs of its time period - > whether that's Windows > or Lotus 1-2-3 or whatever - then it's a PC. Many pseudo-compatibles had to have PC programs ported to their particular architecture. So the criteria for uninteresting has become whether or not it can run a particular program/s? > About > the only time a PC > compatible is interesting in architectural or design > terms is if it's > something like a BBC Master 512 - a 2nd processor in > an alien computer > connected over a CPU-to-CPU bus. Thus, there's some > interest in > hardware PC cards for the various Macs, in the > add-in boards for the > Acorn RISC PC (I have one here, if I ever get it > working) and so > forth. What about dual or triple processor machines that just happent to have an 80x86? Are they immediately deemed uninteresting? It seems that some boxes w/an Intel processor can often be some of the rarest pieces around. I can give you a list if you like and challenge you to find 2 or 3 others on this list with one, sometimes their won't even be another single person. > But basically, a PC compatible is a PC compatible. > We've all seen a > thousand of them. Who cares any more? The problem is when people utter those words it's really indicative of a unit with an 80x86. > They get marginally more fun to use if they're > running an interesting > OS. Me, I run Linux, because I have work to do and > it networks with > anything, drives almost any peripheral and so on. > But I find BeOS and > Syllable and QNX and AROS and so on much more > *interesting*, simply > because they are different. Linux? We seem to be diving off topic there. And I'll grant there are many OS' more interesting then DOS. But if you're rendering all DOS based machines uninteresting, you may as well throw CP/M, TRS-DOS and a number of others in with it. Remember this is a vintage forum. If you want real *interesting* stuff, you'd typicall fare better somewhere else, interesting typically signifying cutting-edge. Keep in mind there are at least a few Intel based boxes that won't even run DOS at all. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Jun 26 15:16:31 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:16:31 +0100 Subject: hat are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706221525.l5MFOOOW073249@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706221525.l5MFOOOW073249@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <391980DF-16A3-4798-B311-FD4B945D1D76@microspot.co.uk> Just catching up, still about a dozen digests behind! > What are the most bizarre, way-out or just plain *different* machines > that folks have seen? Well how about a machine with a normal instruction set but no program counter? It has a 48 bit word, and most instructions are 24 bits, with a few 48 bit ones. It has three 'Control Registers', and normally at least one has a unconditional absolute jump instruction in it, which jumps to the next word. After a single length instruction is executed, it gets one added to it (in binary coded decimal), and it gets moved from control register (CR) 1 to CR3. At the same time, CR3 goes to CR2 and CR2 goes to CR1 ready for execution. If it is a jump instruction things are a bit different, the original CR2 and CR3 are saved in the 'A' register and the value at the address specified in the jump instruction gets put into CR1 and CR2 instead of the old values of CR2 and CR3. CR1 still gets incremented and put in CR3. Simple enough so far, but what about conditional jumps and procedure calls? On a condition jump where the condition is true, the top 8 bits of the instruction get cleared, which makes it into an unconditional jump. A procedure call (which can be conditional or unconditional) is just a jump instruction. What makes it a procedure call is in the function itself. It stores the A register in memory, usually at the word after the end of the routine. When the program reaches it end, it executes this word. If the procedure call was in the second (bottom) half of the word, then it will execute a jump instruction to the word after the word where the function call was made from. If the procedure call was in the first (top) half of the word, then it will first execute what had been in the second half of the word, which could itself be a procedure call, which actually works out just fine if you think about it. Now I hear your objections - no recursion, no re-entrancy etc. But this machine had no interrupts, and if you really needed recursion then you could implement a stack in software and save the A-register in that stack. Anyway, with a maximum of 2000 (yes 2000 not 2048) words of store and overlays on drum backing store or magnetic tape, programs could not be huge anyway. Other weirdness: pound shillings and pence arithmetic in hardware with a variable ten shillings position register, so than digits to the left were decimal (radix 10), the addressed digit was radix 2, the next digit was decimal, the next was radix 12 and the rest were decimal. This even had a multiply instruction which could multiply a LSD amount by a decimal amount. Division was all in software. The machine was designed in the late 1950s, first delivered 1962 (such a long gestation that it was the only ICT/ICL machine where all the promised applications software/libraries was ready before the first machine shipped). It a collaboration between the British Tabulating Machine company (which had recently given up its rights to use all IBM designs and patents!) and the British General Electric Company, Telephone division based in Coventry. By the time it shipped, BTM had become ICT (International Computers and Tabulators) and went on to be merged with almost all the other British computer companies to become ICL (International Computers Ltd). Somewhere between 155 and 200 of these ICT 1300 series machines were made up to becoming obsolete in 1965. As I understand it, in 1965 there were 950 computers in Britain, so a large proportion were of this type, though of course some were exported. Another weird machine, the CHLL, Compacted High Level Language computer. Executed Coral 66 (a real time variant of Algol 60) in microcode. It was a 24 bit machine but instructions could be any multiple of 3 bits, and could start on any 3 bit boundary. Top 21 bits of program counter were word address and the bottom 3 bits were the 3 bit byte address within the word. The machine was flyable, but otherwise a normal computer which could have a teletype, paper tape reader and punch attached. Only two made (one ground prototype and one flyable). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 15:20:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:20:29 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 6/26/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I'd say that if it can't play games (graphical or at least a multi-line > text display), then it's not what I'd call a *home* computer. > > You could do that on an Apple 2, TRS-80, C64/VIC20/PET, IBM PC, etc. But not an AIM-65, a KIM-1 or a SYM-1, supporting, in my mind, your assertion. All of those items have their place in 1970s computing, but I can't see calling them "home computers". Being able to see multiple lines of text, I think, is an essential element. A TTY would enable you to preserve ephemeral output, but at the time, they were well over $1500 new, and more of a minicomputer or S-100-box peripheral, IMO (yes, I know you _could_ hang an ASR-33 off of a KIM-1, but in practice, how common was it?) -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 26 15:20:45 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070626131655.T44457@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Jason McBrien wrote: > OK, branching off another thread. There probably aren't many, but there are > a few clones that I'd consider "interesting." I'd say the PCjr counts, it > was a pretty strange system - the unsuccessful IIgs of the PC world. Sidecar > expansion slots, IR keyboard and cartridges... The PCJr was a bad case of giving people what they asked for, and not doing enough research to find out what they really wanted. "Well, for my HOME machine, I don't need much memory, and one floppy drive should do it, and I don't need a hard drive, . . . " As soon as they took delivery, the users demanded the capability of upgrading into a complete XT. > The last of the PS/2's had some strange designs. I like that mechanical linkage running from the front to a physical switch at the rear. Now THAT had style. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 26 15:22:36 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:22:36 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <6b91acc1e989554e6bcf38788e400dd5@mac.com> References: <6b91acc1e989554e6bcf38788e400dd5@mac.com> Message-ID: <5C06A1C1-5130-4BAC-9568-587089736982@neurotica.com> On Jun 25, 2007, at 6:18 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: > most used toys at the moment...... in no particular order > > ICL one per desk > Sinclair QL > commodore sx64 > apple lisa > mac se/30 > sun server e220 > hp85 > microprofessor mpf1p > amstrad 9512+ A good list, though the E220 seems very out of place. My most used classic machine at the moment is a PDP-8/m; I've carved out a permanent place for it on my desk. It contains an RX8E which is connected to a arallel port adapter based on Chuck Dickman's design, which is in turn connected to a small x86 SBC running Linux to give the 8/m a disk subsystem. My cat, Ophelia, enjoys sitting atop the machine, making this a picture of two of my favorite things in the world: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdpcat.jpg -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From austin at ozpass.co.uk Tue Jun 26 15:28:20 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:28:20 +0100 Subject: [RESULTS] Re: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 26/6/07 17:56, "Austin Pass" wrote: > Peanut butter and melted butter? Are we into the realms of pulling my leg > now perchance, or perhaps an anti-SGI stance keen to turn my crimson into a > squashed picnic? ;-) > > I'll have a crack at it with naptha first, and then a little WD40, all on > inconspicuous areas*. > > -Austin > > * Although finding an "inconspicuous area" on the 3 foot cubed bright red > beast is, perhaps, a contradiction in terms! Well, I've tried what I had available and the results are as follows.... 1) I tried WD40, naptha, peanut butter and sunflower oil (closest I had to canola) on the rear of the wheel cover skins. No harm done, so on with the experiment. I'm going to clean the smaller front door. It's the most scuffed part, and easy to remove for pictures. 2) Here's the crud to start with (caution, all images 1024 x 768): http://www.fingertip-solutions.co.uk/files/sticky_crud1.jpg 3) I divided the sections into four (with insulation tape - oh the irony!), and decided what would go where: http://www.fingertip-solutions.co.uk/files/sticky_crud2.jpg 4) The PB and oil in place (didn't want to leave the naptha or WD40 on long enough for photography): http://www.fingertip-solutions.co.uk/files/sticky_crud3.jpg 5) "Scrubbed" each section with a soft cloth, here are the results: http://www.fingertip-solutions.co.uk/files/sticky_crud4.jpg And what are the results? In order of how effective they were at cleaning the crud: 1. Naptha - excellent, all crud removed easily. 2. WD40 - not great, changed composition of sticky crud but still adhering to case. 3. Sunflower oil - if I had muscles like the governator this might remove it in 3-4 years of constant scrubbing. 4. Peanut butter - save it for the sandwiches. And before you all weigh in, this is 20% science, 80% tongue-in-cheek. I can confirm that for my given situation naptha is far and away the most effective cleaner though. -Austin. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 15:29:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT & T 7300 in Kansas (eBay) Message-ID: <780769.69285.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290132606044&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:us comes with a box labelled *system software 3.n1*. I previously thought mine had everything - a stack of manuals probably 3' tall. Mine don't have that. And all my disks (except the hard disk) are bad *snifful*. I'm still looking for original images. I do have the media. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 15:38:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IT Micracle (and I'm still looking for an IBM Displaywriter) Message-ID: <351513.66885.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> the keyboard to the right reminded me of a displaywriter's: http://cgi.ebay.com/Unique-historic-IBM-Chinese-System-creating-IT-Miracle_W0QQitemZ260130805222QQihZ016QQcategoryZ74946QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 15:41:54 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:41:54 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <5C06A1C1-5130-4BAC-9568-587089736982@neurotica.com> References: <6b91acc1e989554e6bcf38788e400dd5@mac.com> <5C06A1C1-5130-4BAC-9568-587089736982@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0706261341t5d9ab613s57beb3f628845bb0@mail.gmail.com> On 26/06/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > My cat, Ophelia, enjoys sitting atop the machine, making this a > picture of two of my favorite things in the world: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdpcat.jpg > > -Dave That picture demands a LOLCAT caption. Joe. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 26 15:43:34 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:43:34 -0700 Subject: [RESULTS] Re: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. Message-ID: <46817A76.9020305@bitsavers.org> And what are the results? In order of how effective they were at cleaning the crud: 1. Naptha - excellent, all crud removed easily. http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/safety/MSDS/GOO-GONE%20STAIN%20REMOVER.htm Ingredients/Identity Information Ingredient: PETROLEUM NAPHTHA Ingredient: CITRUS OIL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 15:47:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:47:18 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <5C06A1C1-5130-4BAC-9568-587089736982@neurotica.com> References: <6b91acc1e989554e6bcf38788e400dd5@mac.com> <5C06A1C1-5130-4BAC-9568-587089736982@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6/26/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > My most > used classic machine at the moment is a PDP-8/m; I've carved out a > permanent place for it on my desk. It contains an RX8E which is > connected to a arallel port adapter based on Chuck Dickman's design, > which is in turn connected to a small x86 SBC running Linux to give > the 8/m a disk subsystem. Interesting way to do it. How "based on" is it? I know of Chuck's parallel port adapter, but I'm curious how you've tweaked it. Is the SBC tucked into the /m or is it external? Does the SBC host your disk images locally, or over a network? Given that an RX8E is a PIO device, it makes me think that it wouldn't be that hard to come up with an OS/8 handler to treat the 12-bit-input and output ports on a DKC8AA as a disk interface to an external, modern machine. It doesn't help -8/e/f/m owners much, but the DKC8AA was a standard peripheral on the -8/a, and normally, unless one is using the output port as a printer port, unused. Much to think about there... -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 26 15:50:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:50:29 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <248028.27018.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <575131af0706251010m164c0bb0x570b6cf6093bbd32@mail.gmail.com>, <248028.27018.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jun 2007 at 12:59, Chris M wrote: > Keep in mind there are at least a few Intel based > boxes that won't even run DOS at all. They may not run MS-DOS as configured for the "standard IBM PC" platform, but Microsoft offered OEM versions that could be configured with the customer's own I/O routines. This was very common between versions 1.x (1.25 was a common version) through 2.1. I have at least one such here, complete with Microsoft's own "How to write an I/O subsystem for DOS" documentation. I believe that Bill Godbout offered PC-DOS for his 85/88 and 86 CPU cards, where IBMBIO.COM had been replaced with drivers specific to the Computro line. Microsoft was not interested in licensing small numbers of MS-DOS, so Godbout started with a standard $40 IBM PC-DOS package. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 15:51:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:51:07 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <20070626131655.T44457@shell.lmi.net> References: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com> <20070626131655.T44457@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 6/26/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > The last of the PS/2's had some strange designs. > I like that mechanical linkage running from the front to a physical switch > at the rear. Now THAT had style. The Amiga 3000 had that sort of thing, too... a latching pushbutton mounted right on the PSU, activated by a pushrod and a button on the front of the machine. I think at the time, I heard it was to satisfy German electrical code (to not run mains to a switch in the front), but perhaps it was just cheaper, somehow, than how PCs did it with a heavy insulated cable from the PSU in the back to a heavy-duty power switch in the front. Certainly it makes it easy to have the user power switch not mechanically attached to the electrical bit, allowing the cover to slide off the front. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 26 15:37:49 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:37:49 -0500 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4681791D.9000507@yahoo.co.uk> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 25 June 2007, Tony Duell wrote: >> The built-in display was a 1-line 32 character alphanumeric unit. >> Hardly a 'calculator display'. >> ... > > I'd say that if it can't play games (graphical or at least a multi-line > text display), then it's not what I'd call a *home* computer. Although it's surprising how many equipment donations we get at the museum where the owners only ever used the system for non-games activities, despite the equipment being notionally in the "home computer" camp. Lots of people did their accounts etc. on things like Spectrums, Acorn Electrons, Dragons and the like, and never used them for gaming. But as has been discussed in the past on here, there does seem to be a difference between the UK picture and the US one, and in the UK the line between business and home was a lot more fuzzy - which probably makes the definition of "home computer" vary across the globe. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 15:51:15 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:51:15 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Accept the fact that there is no "first" anything, and no distinct line as to what a personal/home computer is. Whatever claim is made can generally be shot down using various points of view and conditions. I bet somewhere, some rich engineer back around 1960 ordered a G-15 for home use. Drove to the Bendix/CDC office with a big check in hand, and convinced the salesmen to sell him a machine off the assembly line. And after it was installed, and after his first Hello World program, he loaded tic-tac-toe. Weirder things have happened. -- Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 15:51:25 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: nice but OT (HP/Apollo workstation) Message-ID: <909297.46543.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180133655171&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:us Of course by p/u only. Anyone got anything similar that's surplus to their needs? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 26 15:43:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:43:11 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <248028.27018.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <248028.27018.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46817A5F.40405@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > Remember this is a vintage forum. If you want real *interesting* > stuff, you'd typicall fare better somewhere else, interesting > typically signifying cutting-edge. Careful there - lots of things can be vintage and cutting edge - they're just not cutting edge *now* :-) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 15:57:44 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstrad Master Scan (Australia) Message-ID: <605078.64260.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Amstrad-PCW-8256-8512-master-scan-powerful-graphic-tool_W0QQitemZ260132319894QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem seemingly NIB. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 26 15:59:32 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0706260825o2aa9a09r6ea151f780f6d83@mail.gmail.com> References: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> <20070625135646.T83660@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0706260825o2aa9a09r6ea151f780f6d83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070626135706.P44457@shell.lmi.net> > > I remember one time in the ealry 1980s checking into exchange rates, > > particularly dollar/yen for Epson HC20, RC20, etc. At that time, a USD > > was about 300 yen, and there were IIRC 2.85 USD per British Pound. It On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > Well, the way it worked from when I was in my teens (mid-1980s) until > fairly recently was, to convert a US price to a UK one, take off the $ > sign and replace it with a ? sign. It still happens today. Therefore, prices in UK were/are? 2 to 3 times the price in US. For a UK kid with limited funds, that sucks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 26 16:00:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:00:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <200706261909.PAA23298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 26, 7 03:04:24 pm Message-ID: > A bike-shop guy once told me to never use WD40 as a lubricant for > things bicycle, but that it works fine to wash dirt off (say) a chain, > preparatory to lubricating it. (As lube, he recommended automatic > transmission fluid - apparently it's made with a good grade of oil > under very strict quality controls, and is widely/cheaply available.) > > Now, bicycles aren't computers, but it does seem to me that similar > remarks should apply to anything with complicated mechanical parts, > such as an ASR33 or a Selectric...though you might want to use grease > rather than oil as the lube once you've washed it relatively clean. I normally call it 'Wanton Destruction 40'. It's great as a Water Displacer (the original intention), to keep rust off garden tools and steel stock. It's OK as a penatrating oil _provided you wash it off afterwards_. It contains some long-chain waxy hydrocarbons (ideal for the original use) that can really gum things um For that reason it's not suitable as a lubricant, at least not on precision machinery (clocks, cameras, ASR33s, etc). For example, I bought a cheap non-working camera. The original fauly was that a spring had become unhooked inside. Unfortuantely, the previous owner had sprayed WD40 everywhere. What should have been a 10 minute repair took several days as _everything_ had to some apart and be cleaned. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 26 16:08:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:08:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <217787.29504.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jun 26, 7 12:26:06 pm Message-ID: > > I find the http://www.hpmuseum.net/ site to be more > > useful for these > > larger machines. Not as many pictures, but plenty of > > useful manuals. > > Er, actually that was the one I meant :) The 'trick' is to click on the 'docuemtation' link on the homepage, you then get a list of all the manuals that are available. It's a lot easier than rememebring which sub-section a particular manual is hidden in. > > Err, I've got a PDP8/e + TU56 DECtape + PC04 paper > > tape on my desk... > > An 8/e? Meant to be rackmounted I would think. You That's the one... I didn't have a spare rack at the time, so it ended up on my desk > I wasn't commenting on *user friendliness* so much as > the *introduction* of the term "off the shelf". > Actually it was first introduced in the original post > I guess! So I stand to be corrected. So if we go back > and ask if the TRS-80 was the first OTS micro...truth > is the assumption may be correct. But it wasn't the > first micro (pre-packaged, easy to use, complete, > woteva, etc.). What is the definition of 'off the shelf'? I don't take it literally to mean you could necessarily go into a shop and take one 'off the shelf'. To me, if the machine came ready-to-use in a standard configuration, that's ;off the shelf' even if it was only available by mail order. > The TRS-80 did in fact introduce a great many people > to the micro due to it's wide availability, but Ture. As I said earlier, it was the first computer I ever programmed. I do have something of a soft spot for TRS-80s, but equally, I don't like to see history re-written. > probably not as wide as it could have due to a stigma > often associated with them. The line was so stagnant - > besides the CoCos (that must have carried the TRS-80 > badge) the only other unit that had color capability I > guess was the model 2000. None of the "classic" I really don't see this love of colour or graphics.... > TRS-80s had color or even graphical capability IINM. Well, they all had the block graphics (128*48). IIRC, there was an optional high-resolution board for the Model 3 and 4 (and maybe the M1), but I never owned it. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 26 16:16:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070626141606.M44457@shell.lmi.net> . . . Jif and Naval Jelly? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 26 16:43:24 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:43:24 -0700 Subject: AT & T 7300 in Kansas (eBay) Message-ID: <4681887C.3080400@bitsavers.org> > all my disks (except the hard disk) are bad *snifful*. Have you tried imagedisk and a 360K drive? They are 400k (10 sector, 40trk) I have some discs I can try imaging, though I haven't turned up a set of base discs yet. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 26 16:48:51 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:48:51 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <6b91acc1e989554e6bcf38788e400dd5@mac.com> <5C06A1C1-5130-4BAC-9568-587089736982@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <34991828-34AC-4CA9-A657-B1CCA195B6C6@neurotica.com> On Jun 26, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> My most >> used classic machine at the moment is a PDP-8/m; I've carved out a >> permanent place for it on my desk. It contains an RX8E which is >> connected to a arallel port adapter based on Chuck Dickman's design, >> which is in turn connected to a small x86 SBC running Linux to give >> the 8/m a disk subsystem. > > Interesting way to do it. How "based on" is it? I know of Chuck's > parallel port adapter, but I'm curious how you've tweaked it. Oh, my changes are trivial. The logic design requires six open- collector inverters, and he got that functionality using two 7438s. I did it with one 7406, reducing the chip count from four to three. > Is the SBC tucked into the /m or is it external? Does the SBC host > your disk images locally, or over a network? The SBC is currently sitting on the table behind the 8/m, mostly due to laziness on my part. The disk images reside on the SBC's system disk, which is a 1GB CF MicroDrive plugged into the SBC via a daughterboard. The SBC is headless; I access it over the network. > Given that an RX8E is a PIO device, it makes me think that it wouldn't > be that hard to come up with an OS/8 handler to treat the 12-bit-input > and output ports on a DKC8AA as a disk interface to an external, > modern machine. It doesn't help -8/e/f/m owners much, but the DKC8AA > was a standard peripheral on the -8/a, and normally, unless one is > using the output port as a printer port, unused. Yes, that does sound like it'd be reasonably easy to do. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 16:48:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <728379.47444.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Jun 2007 at 12:59, Chris M wrote: > > > Keep in mind there are at least a few Intel based > > boxes that won't even run DOS at all. > > They may not run MS-DOS as configured for the > "standard IBM PC" > platform, We all know about those ;) > but Microsoft offered OEM versions that > could be configured > with the customer's own I/O routines. This was very > common between > versions 1.x (1.25 was a common version) through > 2.1. I have at > least one such here, complete with Microsoft's own > "How to write an > I/O subsystem for DOS" documentation. There were a few Unisys '286 boxes that UIM don't run DOS. The Televideo Personal Mini PM/4t/PM/16t don't run DOS (not natively anyway). I'm sure the Northstar Dimension don't neither. There are others. Burroughs ICON? UK/French/Japanese boxes??? Granted such a DOS could be configured to run on these machines, but ultimately that goes w/o saying, and that's besides the point and cheating. > I believe that Bill Godbout offered PC-DOS for his > 85/88 and 86 CPU > cards, where IBMBIO.COM had been replaced with > drivers specific to > the Computro line. Microsoft was not interested in > licensing small > numbers of MS-DOS, so Godbout started with a > standard $40 IBM PC-DOS > package. Compupro? Yeah, whenever I get offered one, amongst other things, the hoser backs out. FWIW, I was in contact w/a dude in the Chicago area some time ago who had been working on a mod for the Tandy 2000 that would make it 100% PC compatible. It involved an extensive rewrite of IO.sys, which I had thought would be a big no-no, but from what you're saying, not really. I do believe he was hacking Tandy's specific DOS though. Never finished it sadly. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 26 16:49:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:49:32 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: References: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com>, <20070626131655.T44457@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4681277C.17675.1EFA4F3@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jun 2007 at 16:51, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The Amiga 3000 had that sort of thing, too... a latching pushbutton > mounted right on the PSU, activated by a pushrod and a button on the > front of the machine. I think at the time, I heard it was to satisfy > German electrical code (to not run mains to a switch in the front), > but perhaps it was just cheaper, somehow, than how PCs did it with a > heavy insulated cable from the PSU in the back to a heavy-duty power > switch in the front. Certainly it makes it easy to have the user > power switch not mechanically attached to the electrical bit, allowing > the cover to slide off the front. I think it's more common than commonly thought. Most of the front- loading Overland Data 9-track tape drives use the same scheme. Now, PCs with *real* (mains disconnect) power switches seem to be getting very rare. Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 16:55:03 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:55:03 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <200706261222.27144.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200706260043.39786.rtellason@verizon.net> <575131af0706260831x3547710bj3d4b502063720401@mail.gmail.com> <200706261222.27144.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0706261455q53e0a72bj927ecdd3626a36af@mail.gmail.com> On 26/06/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I probably have tens of thousands of pounds of machines too... I'd > think it'd take a lot of "home" computers to reach that much weight. Pounds as weight? Is this some strange Colonial variant on kilogrammes and tonnes? ;?) No, seriously, I remember pounds and ounces from my early childhood, 35-odd years ago, and still tend to think of body weight in Imperial. It's illegal to sell goods in Imperial units only now, though, so they are in fast decline, and good riddance to a bizarre and difficult system. I much prefer SI metric; it's much easier. All 10s and 100s and 1000s, no room for confusion - like the street grid of NYC. What I never understood is why the USA didn't use the larger units rather than dealing in hundreds and thousands of pounds. I don't think of myself as being 225lb, I'm 16 and a quarter stone. (And badly need to lose some of it; I'm 6'2" but I'm happier and healthier around 15st or lighter.) For larger objects, hundredweight [oh gods, I've just realised I weigh 2cwt! 8?( ] or tons. 112lb = 1cwt. 20cwt = 1 ton (=2240lb). -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 26 16:42:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:42:20 -0500 Subject: nice but OT (HP/Apollo workstation) In-Reply-To: <909297.46543.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <909297.46543.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4681883C.1070809@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180133655171&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:us > > Of course by p/u only. Anyone got anything similar > that's surplus to their needs? Note that it's not a real Apollo capable of running Domain/OS - the machine's all HP and just trading on the nostalgia value of the Apollo name. From memory it's a well-engineered box inside, but it's no nicer than a Sun / DEC Alpha of a similar period (i.e. it's Just Another Desktop UNIX box). It's the sort of thing commonly found lurking at the bottom of university store cupboards, awaiting disposal for free just as soon as someone actually notices that it's there :-) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 16:57:32 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:57:32 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0706260829x57b095e5x5c97e8529f20e453@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706261457j108647fcu17bc5d653ebbf68b@mail.gmail.com> On 26/06/07, Tony Duell wrote: > As I mentioend [...] > Same thing with pltting graphs. Rather than have a low-resolution > block-graphics display, you added a plotter or an HP1350 and got enough > resolution to produce a _useable_ graph -- not just a pretty picture. Of > course it wasn't cheap, but... OK, point taken, but really, I think you're sort of emphasizing the difference and making my point for me. This wasn't a PC, it was an expensive tool for professionals and scientists. It was a table-top single-user mini, in a way: expensive on its own and little use without various peripherals to give it useful I/O. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 17:03:32 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 23:03:32 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <20070626135706.P44457@shell.lmi.net> References: <004001c7b563$a3d7ff20$0100a8c0@pentium> <20070623133417.L76392@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0706251029v40de57b9yc085188e05549c8c@mail.gmail.com> <20070625135646.T83660@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0706260825o2aa9a09r6ea151f780f6d83@mail.gmail.com> <20070626135706.P44457@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0706261503g10ac3dc2m3f5830cc09747a98@mail.gmail.com> On 26/06/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > Well, the way it worked from when I was in my teens (mid-1980s) until > > fairly recently was, to convert a US price to a UK one, take off the $ > > sign and replace it with a ? sign. It still happens today. > > Therefore, prices in UK were/are? 2 to 3 times the price in US. > > For a UK kid with limited funds, that sucks. /OHHHHHHHHHH/ yes! We knew, all right. In the late 1980s, there were companies who, if you wanted a new Apple Mac, sold them to order. The chap would go buy a return air ticket to NYC, fly over, walk into a high street store and buy a Mac, go out for dinner, then fly home with it sitting in the hold (minus packaging etc. so it looked "used"), then deliver it to you. Their prices were cheaper than buying from Apple UK, and including his airfare and transport to/from the airport at both ends and the meal, he could turn a decent profit. And what really sucks is that the same sort of price differential still holds on some kit and on a lot of software. This is perhaps a reason why Linux and FOSS took off in Europe in a way that it didn't in the USA. Here, if you were poor, once you'd bought the PC, you had no money left for software! Many of the big key bits of the modern Linux desktop came from the EU. The Linux kernel itself is Finnish, SUSE, KDE and OpenOffice are German, Mandriva French and so on. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 17:04:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46817A5F.40405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <342371.81656.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > Remember this is a vintage forum. If you want real > *interesting* > > stuff, you'd typicall fare better somewhere else, > interesting > > typically signifying cutting-edge. > > Careful there - lots of things can be vintage and > cutting edge - they're just > not cutting edge *now* :-) I did say typically. Of course there are designs that fell by the wayside (never to be repeated in any form?). But to exclude something as *disinteresting* is at best subjective. It's often said newer computers are bland and lack character. Who's to say *interesting* stops at something as trifling as the design of the case for instance? Being "pc's" were so plentiful, there was lots of room to experiment with elements of design, and some are nice to look at (if nothing else LOL). My Leading Edge Model M (not the later and much more common Model D) is pretty, so nyeh. And I tend to shy away from *true* compatibles, but this one was too *intrustin* to pass up. But again I do have to question why a person would go on a quest for vintage stuph to find interesting designs. Again, they exist, but I think the vast majority of the time that person enjoys tinkering, something that is less practical w/today's machines. And if anyone is going to suggest an Intel based unit doesn't give you ample room to tinker, it simply ain't so. ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 17:05:09 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 23:05:09 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0706261505q4912f80dqe7895782be8ae577@mail.gmail.com> On 26/06/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/26/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I'd say that if it can't play games (graphical or at least a multi-line > > text display), then it's not what I'd call a *home* computer. > > > > You could do that on an Apple 2, TRS-80, C64/VIC20/PET, IBM PC, etc. > > But not an AIM-65, a KIM-1 or a SYM-1, supporting, in my mind, your assertion. > > All of those items have their place in 1970s computing, but I can't > see calling them "home computers". Being able to see multiple lines > of text, I think, is an essential element. A TTY would enable you to > preserve ephemeral output, but at the time, they were well over $1500 > new, and more of a minicomputer or S-100-box peripheral, IMO (yes, I > know you _could_ hang an ASR-33 off of a KIM-1, but in practice, how > common was it?) Yup. Which, I think, adds on to the definition of a "PC" that it's a micro that either incorporates or can use an inexpensive generic or 3rd party device to generate a full-screen display. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From wulfcub at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 17:14:33 2007 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:14:33 -0500 Subject: nice but OT (HP/Apollo workstation) In-Reply-To: <909297.46543.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <909297.46543.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/26/07, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180133655171&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:us > > Of course by p/u only. Anyone got anything similar > that's surplus to their needs? > Stacks, and stacks, and stacks. How many do you want? I dont know the specs on my piles of HP gear, but there's quite a bit of it. Sadly, most of my units are missing the drives, or otherwise refuse to boot. Free to good home, you figure out how to get them out of Kansas (Wichita). --Wulf -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 17:14:58 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <5C06A1C1-5130-4BAC-9568-587089736982@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <344817.74762.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > which is in turn connected to a small x86 SBC > running Linux to give > the 8/m a disk subsystem. Barring Cflash or similar storage mediums, I guess you could use a small x86 SBC to host some storage for virtually anything. Serially connecting would rot though... Are there still reasonably priced SBCs out there, and would that generally provide a simpler solution then flash card or even USB style solutions? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 17:15:53 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 23:15:53 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <248028.27018.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <575131af0706251010m164c0bb0x570b6cf6093bbd32@mail.gmail.com> <248028.27018.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706261515v106fce51jbd2fc23b992457c7@mail.gmail.com> On 26/06/07, Chris M wrote: > > --- Liam Proven wrote: > > > If it runs IBM PC programs of its time period - > > whether that's Windows > > or Lotus 1-2-3 or whatever - then it's a PC. > > Many pseudo-compatibles had to have PC programs > ported to their particular architecture. So the > criteria for uninteresting has become whether or not > it can run a particular program/s? It's one. If it runs all the programs from PCs, it's a PC. PCs are a commonplace, mass-market item and therefore, to the sorts of collectors who hang out here, for example, not that interesting. I'm curious as to why you're becoming so exercised over this? > > About > > the only time a PC > > compatible is interesting in architectural or design > > terms is if it's > > something like a BBC Master 512 - a 2nd processor in > > an alien computer > > connected over a CPU-to-CPU bus. Thus, there's some > > interest in > > hardware PC cards for the various Macs, in the > > add-in boards for the > > Acorn RISC PC (I have one here, if I ever get it > > working) and so > > forth. > > What about dual or triple processor machines that > just happent to have an 80x86? Are they immediately > deemed uninteresting? It seems that some boxes w/an > Intel processor can often be some of the rarest pieces > around. I can give you a list if you like and > challenge you to find 2 or 3 others on this list with > one, sometimes their won't even be another single > person. Depends. A Compaq SystemPro (really early SMP PC) is still a PC, it's just a PC that could do interesting things running Unix. A Sequent multi-proc server isn't a PC, 'cos it won't run PC OSs or apps, so it's marginally more interesting, but it's still relatively mainstream compared to some of the exotica that people have been suggesting here. So would a Sun 386i be. > The problem is when people utter those words it's > really indicative of a unit with an 80x86. Not really, no. I've seen lots of non-PC-compatible x86 kit; I even wrote an article about it for Wikipedia before some little idiot deleted it, which I'm not happy about. > Linux? We seem to be diving off topic there. And I'll > grant there are many OS' more interesting then DOS. > But if you're rendering all DOS based machines > uninteresting, you may as well throw CP/M, TRS-DOS and > a number of others in with it. Remember this is a > vintage forum. If you want real *interesting* stuff, > you'd typicall fare better somewhere else, interesting > typically signifying cutting-edge. Why would you discard pre-PC machines? You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Ancestors of PCs need not be PCs themselves. > Keep in mind there are at least a few Intel based > boxes that won't even run DOS at all. You're repeating yourself... -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 17:25:59 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <940366.88665.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > A bike-shop guy once told me to never use WD40 as > a lubricant for > > things bicycle, but that it works fine to wash > dirt off (say) a chain, > > preparatory to lubricating it. (As lube, he > recommended automatic > > transmission fluid - apparently it's made with a > good grade of oil > > under very strict quality controls, and is > widely/cheaply available.) Problem w/WD-40 and other stuff is that it will dillute the true lubricant, and wherever metal is coming in contact w/metal, rapid wear will ensue. Best to keep that stuff away from machinery or any other critical moving parts. Paint thinner would work better at releasing junk, and at least it evaporates (much more quickly). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 17:30:23 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 23:30:23 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706261515v106fce51jbd2fc23b992457c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0706251010m164c0bb0x570b6cf6093bbd32@mail.gmail.com> <248028.27018.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0706261515v106fce51jbd2fc23b992457c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706261530m2d56b3d1id5e992c967f666e3@mail.gmail.com> On 26/06/07, Liam Proven wrote: > Not really, no. I've seen lots of non-PC-compatible x86 kit; I even > wrote an article about it for Wikipedia before some little idiot > deleted it, which I'm not happy about. Pardon me for commenting to myself, but I decided to go and so some digging and a copy of the article still exists on Search.com. It may be of some interest to people hereabouts. http://www.search.com/reference/Non-PC_compatible_x86_computers I've also copied it for posterity (ha!) on my blog. http://lproven.livejournal.com/189791.html -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 17:41:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:41:08 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <217787.29504.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/26/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > An 8/e? Meant to be rackmounted I would think. You The -8/S, the -8/e and the -8/L have black desktop shells (I have one of each). Most were, I suspect, rackmounted, though. -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 17:46:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <467708.63673.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > I find the http://www.hpmuseum.net/ site to be > more > > > useful for these > > > larger machines. Not as many pictures, but > plenty of > > > useful manuals. > > > > Er, actually that was the one I meant :) > > The 'trick' is to click on the 'docuemtation' link > on the homepage, you > then get a list of all the manuals that are > available. It's a lot easier > than rememebring which sub-section a particular > manual is hidden in. Either the search function is better, or I'm less apt to ignore what's under my nose. I do a search for "PC-305", and don't get that, but a way to get to *that*. A terribly interesting group of PC's if you ask me, and unfortunately my 305 didn't include as stock the BASIC Language Interpreter board (HP-IB). In fact, my didn't even come with the processor board! Only the graphics card! Ah well, maybe I can use the processor card from an AT & T 6300. > > > Err, I've got a PDP8/e + TU56 DECtape + PC04 > paper > > > tape on my desk... > > > > An 8/e? Meant to be rackmounted I would think. > You > > That's the one... I didn't have a spare rack at the > time, so it ended up > on my desk Are your capacitors oozing out all over the place? The one I had the pleasure of perusing had that problem. Still ran though. > > I wasn't commenting on *user friendliness* so > much as > > the *introduction* of the term "off the shelf". > > Actually it was first introduced in the original > post > > I guess! So I stand to be corrected. So if we go > back > > and ask if the TRS-80 was the first OTS > micro...truth > > is the assumption may be correct. But it wasn't > the > > first micro (pre-packaged, easy to use, complete, > > woteva, etc.). > > What is the definition of 'off the shelf'? I don't > take it literally to > mean you could necessarily go into a shop and take > one 'off the shelf'. > To me, if the machine came ready-to-use in a > standard configuration, > that's ;off the shelf' even if it was only available > by mail order. Me too, but if you want to get technical, off the shelf should be taken literally (w/argument). I don't think it's relevant if you could walk out w/it or have it come in the mail. > > The TRS-80 did in fact introduce a great many > people > > to the micro due to it's wide availability, but > > Ture. As I said earlier, it was the first computer I > ever programmed. I > do have something of a soft spot for TRS-80s, but > equally, I don't like > to see history re-written. As do I. I don't particularly have a soft spot for Tandy Corp though. I haven't forgiven them for what they did to David R (I wonder if he's still around?). Alright I'll give it away. He was the author of the Tandy 2000 Whimper newsletter. > > probably not as wide as it could have due to a > stigma > > often associated with them. The line was so > stagnant - > > besides the CoCos (that must have carried the > TRS-80 > > badge) the only other unit that had color > capability I > > guess was the model 2000. None of the "classic" > > I really don't see this love of colour or > graphics.... So you're not an art lover of any sort either? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 26 17:54:04 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <468104C0.31596.167F6E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca>, <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com> <468104C0.31596.167F6E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you need a lubricant in aerosol form, there are many choices in > grease and oil that will do the job better than WD-40. I frequently use CLP as a good spray lubricant. It's not just for firearms. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 26 18:05:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 19:05:55 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706260814hf175c34x726bc96f7a80e04f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0706260814hf175c34x726bc96f7a80e04f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8B5E9E17-FC74-49F9-9EB2-01A3AE8213BE@neurotica.com> On Jun 26, 2007, at 11:14 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > How about the SGI Visual Workstations? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGI_Visual_Workstation > > Also lovely machines. Beautiful design & build. Not very > PC-compatible, but ran Windows NT. They are pretty machines, most definitely. In the "odd PCs" department, I have to mention the Seequa Chameleon. It has an 8088 and a Z80, so it can run DOS, CP/M-80, or CP/M-86. A friend and mentor had one when I was in my teens (mid-1980s) and I got to use it a fair bit. I really liked it. The display (green) was bright and sharp, and the keyboard had a nice feel. As a "luggable", the mechanical design was similar to that of the Kaypro systems, but if memory serves, it was slightly smaller. A good machine overall. I hope to have one here someday; that will certainly bring back some memories. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 18:08:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT & T 7300 in Kansas (eBay) In-Reply-To: <4681887C.3080400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <863210.6151.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > > > all my disks (except the hard disk) are bad > *snifful*. > > Have you tried imagedisk and a 360K drive? Huh. Maybe that's the problem. Had been sticking them into a cd drive w/o the caddy. And what a funny noise... They're bad Al. Weren't stored properly. Like I said I do have extensive docs, and would like to photograph and share them, and will someday do that regardless, but if these floppies could be *refreshed* the world will be a better place. I'm not even sure where they are at the moment, but I'll catalog them before too long and then I can proceed to bother people. I've bothered people *online* before but mysteriously don't get any response... I also need to work on imaging the hard drive, which is still ok (for the moment). I've queried before, but the unit isn't even up here with me. It is being stored somewhat nicey-nice, so hopefully the drive will hold out another few months until I can get to it. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Tue Jun 26 18:08:27 2007 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 19:08:27 -0400 Subject: MFM hard drive data recovery questions/ideas (help needed) Message-ID: <1618387.235731182899307591.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Hello cctalkers, I'm trying to help someone recover data from an MFM drive in an old Pinnacle 1a system that had MirageOS installed. The system hasn't been booted in years and no longer boots to the hard disk. The drive spins up and sounds okay. We've tried to track down a copy of the MirageOS boot diskettes for the Pinnacle 1a system but haven't found any after looking for months. It's time to come up with a "Plan B". Does anyone have a suggestion about how to read the "raw" data from the MFM hard disk? I was thinking about putting in into an older PC based system with an MFM controller and using some utilities to dump sectors to files that I could convert into something readable/usable. I haven't done this before so I'm hoping someone smarter has a 'cunning plan' of how to do this. I'm a programmer and don't mind write some utilities to pick apart the data after it's off the hard drive. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks, david. daviderhart at oldzonian.com daviderhart at sageandstride.org http://www.sageandstride.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 26 18:17:23 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:17:23 -0500 Subject: Heh... References: <200706261319.22026.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <004301c7b848$276931b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... >> How many group members does it take to change a light bulb? It only takes one irked list admin to start handing out two week suspensions from the list for each off-topic post. I'm about there. Jay From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 18:23:25 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. Message-ID: <763103.5874.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris M wrote: > Problem w/WD-40 and other stuff is that it will > dillute the true lubricant, and wherever metal is > coming in contact w/metal, rapid wear will ensue. > Best > to keep that stuff away from machinery or any other > critical moving parts. Paint thinner would work > better > at releasing junk, and at least it evaporates (much > more quickly). As an addendum, I do use Liquid Wrench (or WD-40, or the generic Walmart variety) and a Scotch-Brite (which comes in grades) for rush removal, then usually rinse off w/thinner. Keep in mind that a SB supposedly has imbedded metal particles, so it essentially DOES remove metal. I'm not joking, and in some instances this is critical (high tolerance machine parts, watchmaking equipment, etc.). You may ask how does such stuff get rusty to begin with, but take for instance a 100 year old lathe w/hand scraping marks (indicative of a VERY accurate finish) in areas. The application of a SB and light oil, and...bye bye. Sometimes it's better to start out with real fine steel wool or even a paper towel :) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 19:01:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <34991828-34AC-4CA9-A657-B1CCA195B6C6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <119546.35378.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > The SBC is currently sitting on the table behind > the 8/m, mostly > due to laziness on my part. The disk images reside > on the SBC's > system disk, which is a 1GB CF MicroDrive plugged > into the SBC via a > daughterboard. The SBC is headless; I access it > over the network. You ought to document this arrangement. I get the jist of most of it, but yer SBC must have integral ethernet. When I see SBC I think Ampro or something LOL. And what sort of daughterboard (PC-104?). I have a few PMMX SBC's that I believe have ISA slot capability (maybe even PCI), and even my Ampro Little Board/PC has a header w/ISA signals. Some earlyish SBC's have "flash" storgage capability, RE Robot/Vesta OEM-188, but that's something different I take it (like eeprom?). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 26 19:13:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:13:58 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <728379.47444.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com>, <728379.47444.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46814956.11631.273E0C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jun 2007 at 14:48, Chris M wrote: > FWIW, I was in contact w/a dude in the Chicago area > some time ago who had been working on a mod for the > Tandy 2000 that would make it 100% PC compatible. It > involved an extensive rewrite of IO.sys, which I had > thought would be a big no-no, but from what you're > saying, not really. I do believe he was hacking > Tandy's specific DOS though. Never finished it sadly. Not possible, unless you mean by "100% compatible", compatible on a BIOS level. That might well be possible, but it's small comfort, given the number of old DOS programs that twiddle the hardware directly. I wonder if the 80186 in the 2K might also cause some programs to mistakenly assume that it's running on a 286, as the 186 has a number of the 286 instructions not present on an 8086. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 19:16:42 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 20:16:42 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0706261455q53e0a72bj927ecdd3626a36af@mail.gmail.com> References: <200706260043.39786.rtellason@verizon.net> <575131af0706260831x3547710bj3d4b502063720401@mail.gmail.com> <200706261222.27144.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0706261455q53e0a72bj927ecdd3626a36af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >. All 10s and 100s > and 1000s, no room for confusion - like the street grid of NYC. Either this is a joke, or you have never been to New York City. Please tell. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 26 19:46:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:46:33 -0700 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0706261455q53e0a72bj927ecdd3626a36af@mail.gmail.com> References: , <200706261222.27144.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <575131af0706261455q53e0a72bj927ecdd3626a36af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jun 2007 at 22:55, Liam Proven wrote: > What I never understood is why the USA didn't use the larger units > rather than dealing in hundreds and thousands of pounds. I don't think > of myself as being 225lb, I'm 16 and a quarter stone. (And badly need > to lose some of it; I'm 6'2" but I'm happier and healthier around 15st > or lighter.) For larger objects, hundredweight [oh gods, I've just > realised I weigh 2cwt! 8?( ] or tons. 112lb = 1cwt. 20cwt = 1 ton > (=2240lb). I'm certain that body weight would be quoted in ounces if that would sell more diet books. The problem with stone is that the least significant digit increments only one for every 14 lbs. You certainly don't measure your height in hands (just horses, right?). Hundredweight exists for the shipping business. We have two tons-- one that's 2000 pounds, and the "long" ton, which is 2240 pounds and used for coal and marine displacement. I don't know if NASA still uses slugs to measure mass, but it certainly did as late as the 1990s. Then there's the confusion between troy and avoirdupois. "Three grains of barley, dry and round..." Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 26 20:06:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:06:07 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <344817.74762.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <344817.74762.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2D9A431D-2BAC-415D-AEEC-06AC1E9018CF@neurotica.com> On Jun 26, 2007, at 6:14 PM, Chris M wrote: >> which is in turn connected to a small x86 SBC >> running Linux to give >> the 8/m a disk subsystem. > > Barring Cflash or similar storage mediums, I guess > you could use a small x86 SBC to host some storage for > virtually anything. Well, given an appropriate interface. The RX01/RX02 controller<- >drive interface is relatively simple, which is what makes a scheme like Chuck's practical...and even that, I'm sure, took a good bit of effort to work out. Doing other types of interfaces would involve a lot more work. > Serially connecting would rot though... Yeah, kinda. > Are there still reasonably priced SBCs out there, and > would that generally provide a simpler solution then > flash card or even USB style solutions? They're all over eBay, and they're cheap. The one I'm using to provide storage for this 8/m is a 433MHz Celeron with 128MB of RAM, and even that is overkill. I got this one from work many years ago, but they can be had very cheaply nowadays, because everyone knows a PC with a clock rate of less than 3GHz is incapable of doing useful work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Jun 26 20:16:21 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:16:21 -0400 Subject: Atari collection for sale in Austin In-Reply-To: <468122A0.5040309@kurico.com> References: <468122A0.5040309@kurico.com> Message-ID: <4681BA65.8080600@hawkmountain.net> George Currie wrote: > Someone in Austin has a largish collection of old 8bit Atari stuff for > sale. Price seems a bit steep to me, but then again maybe I don't > appreciate the Atari like I should :) Local pickup only. > > http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/359890829.html maybe if there was an 815 disk drive and a 1450XLD prototype in there... Other than largeness... doesn't sound like anything Earth shattering in there. -- Curt From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 26 20:35:26 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 20:35:26 -0500 Subject: List Admin Re: Heh... References: <200706261319.22026.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001301c7b85b$72f82bf0$6500a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... >> How many group members does it take to change a light bulb? It only takes one irked list admin to start handing out two week suspensions from the list for each off-topic post. I'm about there. Jay From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 20:47:54 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:47:54 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Austin Pass > >On 26/6/07 15:37, "dwight elvey" wrote: > > > Hi > > Also try melted butter. It seems to remove things as well. > > Dwight > >Peanut butter and melted butter? Are we into the realms of pulling my leg >now perchance, or perhaps an anti-SGI stance keen to turn my crimson into a >squashed picnic? ;-) Hi Both are good solvents and work well for many materials that are a mixture of water soluble and water resistant gunk. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 26 17:39:43 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:39:43 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 Message-ID: <0JK900HMULKK2N93@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:47:18 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 6/26/07, Dave McGuire wrote: >> My most >> used classic machine at the moment is a PDP-8/m; I've carved out a >> permanent place for it on my desk. It contains an RX8E which is >> connected to a arallel port adapter based on Chuck Dickman's design, >> which is in turn connected to a small x86 SBC running Linux to give >> the 8/m a disk subsystem. > >Interesting way to do it. How "based on" is it? I know of Chuck's >parallel port adapter, but I'm curious how you've tweaked it. I'm curious too. > >Is the SBC tucked into the /m or is it external? Does the SBC host >your disk images locally, or over a network? > >Given that an RX8E is a PIO device, it makes me think that it wouldn't >be that hard to come up with an OS/8 handler to treat the 12-bit-input >and output ports on a DKC8AA as a disk interface to an external, >modern machine. It doesn't help -8/e/f/m owners much, but the DKC8AA >was a standard peripheral on the -8/a, and normally, unless one is >using the output port as a printer port, unused. I'm sure that will work, many of the OS/8 devices are simple enough and the drivers are small. It would be a great way to get a "disk" on my 8f. Allison >Much to think about there... > >-ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 26 20:31:41 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:31:41 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 Message-ID: <0JK900GZUTJ5LSW1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:22:36 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > My list is not very esoteric. My older NS* Horizon system with many mods running CP/M as a workhorse system for micros and 8085/z80 coding as it tend to behave better than PCs and also has the Prom Programmer. The system is Z80/10mhz, 256k ram, two 31mb disks, floppies, and a few other goodies. My PX-8 as a data logger and all round Field Day Logging system a database written in of all things BASIC. AmproLB+ small, fast, hard disk and CP/M. PDP-11/73 rack system for those times when I need a break. Nothing like programming in basic or micropower pascal under RT-11. PDP-8f, when I need a handle. I like hand toggleing programs and watching them run. PILOT: my MicroVAX3100/m76 running OpenVMS, for when it really has to be different or when once cpu is not enough (running as nine way LAVC). My portable EElf2000 (embedded elf with Video, PS2 keyboard and CF disk) that runs nicely on a 12V gell cell for a while (>10hours!). If it really has to be Wintel, my 486sx brick system (Modular Solutions). it's about the size of a red brick and runs on 12V nicely. What makes it useful is 800mb hard disk, network, SVGA, serial, parallel and runs whatever I care to. It seems to like DOS6.22 and Linux(slackware). Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 26 20:41:55 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:41:55 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <0JK900GRIU06MCS2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: What are the really unusual or weird computers? > From: "Liam Proven" > Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:36:50 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 25/06/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 25 Jun 2007 at 18:14, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> > I am a biker myself - pedal and motorcycles both - and don't know much >> > about cars, but I don't believe I've ever seen a car with a starter >> > button. Maybe in a museum. >> >> Liam, you must not be old enough. Most cars made before 1951 or so >> had one--I clearly recall the one on my aunt's 1950 Hudson. My brother had a '69 baracuda when a few performance mods that the ignition lock was only to "enable" it and the button for the starter was under the dash where a foot could do it. Securtity by obscurity. >But American cars are /weird/ compared to the rest of the world. (I >live in Europe and have travelled extensively there, grew up in Africa >and have visited Asia as well as N America.) Really! I had a Saab that had a three cylinder engine that burnt two cycle mix (oil in gas) like an old outboard. If that wasn't weird enough starting was turn on ignition, set choke and pull cord. Yes it had a pull cord to start it no electric starter. >Automatic transmission seems ubiquitous, which AFAICT is pretty much >unique to N America, /but/ most people still drive these huge, >tank-like petrol-guzzling monsters, whereas the rest of the world >(that can afford new cars at all) prefers smaller, lighter, more >efficient machines which cope better with traffic and produce less >waste and environmental damage - though that's incidental to their >owners for the large part, what matters is that they are cheaper.) I drive a toyota small pickup 2.2liter engine (smallest) and dirt cheap to feed and lots of room for racks! Great for gathering system and all. >It's too fiddly that way, but then, I mainly drive Windows with the >keyboard anyway. And since I prefer and use 20yo IBM Model M >keyboards, I don't have a Windows key, either - so it's Ctrl-Esc, up, >return, return. :?) I do that and people watching are amazed it's possible! Really helpful when the mouse quits or worse isn't recognized for some odd reason. I just wish someone would make a PC keyboard without the numeric keypad at all, just slice it off to the right of the cursor keys and get rid of four inches of wasted space. Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jun 26 17:11:47 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 23:11:47 +0100 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <200706261909.PAA23298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca> <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com> <200706261909.PAA23298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1182895907.8859.11.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 15:04 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > I beg to differ. WD40 works on a lot of stuff, but it usually works > > better as a solvent than as a lubricant. > > Or a...I'm not sure what the word is. A liquid with which one washes > gunk out/off of something. > > A bike-shop guy once told me to never use WD40 as a lubricant for > things bicycle, but that it works fine to wash dirt off (say) a chain, > preparatory to lubricating it. (As lube, he recommended automatic > transmission fluid - apparently it's made with a good grade of oil > under very strict quality controls, and is widely/cheaply available.) I use LHM on my bike chain, and also on the little one-way clutch in my Tektronix printer when it jams up. I believe the Phaser 560 may well be very close to 10 years old by now, as the latest OS mentioned in the handbook is Windows 98), thus making this post nearly on-topic. It's quite expensive (?7 per litre) unless you buy it in large quantities (around 15 litres at a time). I'd rather use a few millilitres of something expensive that I already have, than buy a few millilitres of something I don't have... Gordon From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 22:32:26 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:32:26 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <0JK900GRIU06MCS2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JK900GRIU06MCS2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730706262032u23eb7e6cnafab3c155505d694@mail.gmail.com> On 6/26/07, Allison wrote: > odd reason. I just wish someone would make a PC keyboard without > the numeric keypad at all, just slice it off to the right of the I'm sure someone's got a cheap Windows-y one like that out there somewhere, but for us Model M loyalists, there's always this: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9242/subcatid/0/id/243752 Unfortunately they're fairly rare. Even that site is sold out of them :( clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick -jht From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 22:39:30 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:39:30 -0500 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <0JK900GZUTJ5LSW1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JK900GZUTJ5LSW1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <9e2403920706262039h3fbd2bcob16ed1b95e38a02b@mail.gmail.com> My list is hardly esoteric, but here it is: TRS-80 Model 100 as my primary laptop. I use it for general writing (emails and such, exported over serial port), and quick-and-dirty BASIC solutions. It's also just plain fun to play games on. ;-) An Epson PX-8 (CP/M, 128k RAM wedge) was formerly my primary laptop, but I forsook it for the AA batteries and far more readable screen. Now, it's sadly my primary CP/M machine for when I want access to that realm again. An HP 200LX (formerly a 95LX) as my palmtop, for when I can't carry the laptop with me. I interchange between a Network General Sniffer (Compaq Portable/386 6MB/40MB, running Linux), a Mac Plus 4/40, and Mac SE 4/20 as simple network-enabled workstations that double as serial consoles to my more interesting boxes. Right now, there's a bog-standard 1992-vintage 486 in that spot, that I repaired and rebuilt "because I could". ;-) A DECstation 5000/120 (32MB/1GB, CD) MIPS machine, configured without the framebuffer, gets used as a TinyMUCK game server when I feel the need to sandbox some game code. A VAXstation 3100 m38 for running OpenVMS/VAX v7.2. (Truth be told, my VAX is a beautiful machine, architecturally speaking. I just haven't found the problem that it is the solution for, yet.) (Wait, I need a reason? ;-) My primary minicomputer is a Data General Eclipse MV7800/U with twin 16-port serial boards, a Cipher tape drive, and two Century Data Systems giant fixed disc drives. (I'd trade it in a heartbeat for a minicomputer that didn't require 40 amps to start up. As such, it sits unpowered since 1993 because I don't have the knowledge to wire up the dedicated power to it, and to test it properly) Anyone got a machine with a programmer's panel that wants to trade? ;-) Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jun 26 22:50:31 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 04:50:31 +0100 Subject: nice but OT (HP/Apollo workstation) References: <909297.46543.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <4681883C.1070809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001001c7b86e$50d7ecf0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Note that it's not a real Apollo capable of running Domain/OS - the >machine's all HP and just trading on the nostalgia value of the Apollo >name.... Yeah, I wasn't even aware that HP had put the "HP-Apollo" name on the 700 series machiens; I though they'd dropped that after the 400 series? I also question whether the thing will run Linux as he says in the auction description....Open/NetBSD certainly, but I've not seen a PA-RISC port of Linux. >....From memory it's a well-engineered box inside, but it's no nicer than >a Sun / DEC Alpha of a similar period (i.e. it's Just Another Desktop UNIX >box). It appears to be a 735/99, which is one of the more expandable 700 series boxes. I recently snagged a 712/100 which is extremely well engineered, but much more limited in expansion options. Still like to find a 300 series machine though, preferably a 370 or 380, but haven't yet come across one. :-( TTFN - Pete. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 23:01:58 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:01:58 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <9e2403920706262039h3fbd2bcob16ed1b95e38a02b@mail.gmail.com> References: <0JK900GZUTJ5LSW1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <9e2403920706262039h3fbd2bcob16ed1b95e38a02b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > My primary minicomputer is a Data General Eclipse MV7800/U with twin > 16-port serial boards, a Cipher tape drive, and two Century Data > Systems giant fixed disc drives. (I'd trade it in a heartbeat for a > minicomputer that didn't require 40 amps to start up. As such, it > sits unpowered since 1993 because I don't have the knowledge to wire > up the dedicated power to it, and to test it properly) A standard 20 Amp circuit with nothing else on it should be able to handle this. 40 Amps startup is just not much, and I doubt the Eclipse sucks more than 10 Amps out of the wall after it has started. Circuit Breakers and time-delay fuses allow for startup surges, mostly for motors. -- Will From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 23:21:47 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 23:21:47 -0500 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <0JK900GZUTJ5LSW1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <9e2403920706262039h3fbd2bcob16ed1b95e38a02b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920706262121q1443f3eeqa5bf745a83bef71a@mail.gmail.com> On 6/26/07, William Donzelli wrote: > A standard 20 Amp circuit with nothing else on it should be able to > handle this. 40 Amps startup is just not much, and I doubt the Eclipse > sucks more than 10 Amps out of the wall after it has started. Circuit > Breakers and time-delay fuses allow for startup surges, mostly for > motors. That's a good point. I derived my number from the ratings on the back of each unit, added together. I keep forgetting that little thing about peak power versus normal operating power. ;-) I'd also trade, just because I'd like a mini with a programmer's panel, someday. This MV7800/U is in a Nova 4 enclosure, with nothing but a power and reset switch on the left side. Since I don't know if the drives are even viable, it's hard to toggle something into memory without one. ;-) -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Tue Jun 26 23:26:29 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 05:26:29 +0100 Subject: What didn't happen in the future References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org><200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> <006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <002d01c7b873$56415320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....I do wonder why people rip to MP3 in this age of cheap >storage.... Because if you're only listening to the .MP3s on your computer or via an MP3 player/jukebox you really can't hear the loss in quality - even 128Kbps-VBR is perfectly acceptable under these circumstances, to my ear at least (BTW I said "acceptable", not "fine"!). Also, .MP3 is about the only format capable of being played on pretty much everything from an MP3 player, to a mobile phone, to a DVD player. The same cannot be said of .WMA, .FLAC, etc. I currently have 16 devices (other than my PC) which play .MP3s, just THREE of those will also play .WMA, and only one of those will also play .OGG and .FLAC! Also, only my mobile phone will play .AAC in addition to .MP3. So, if you're into digital music, you haven't got a massive amount of room in which to manoeuvre. Incidentally, a hi-fi magazine here in the UK (I forget which one) performed some blind listening tests a few years ago. To cut a long story short, the upshot was, that once you hit 224Kbps it was impossible to tell the difference between a CD and an .MP3 of that CD....no matter how good the equipment it was being played through. TTFN - Pete. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 26 23:32:44 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:32:44 -0400 Subject: nice but OT (HP/Apollo workstation) In-Reply-To: <001001c7b86e$50d7ecf0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <909297.46543.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <4681883C.1070809@yahoo.co.uk> <001001c7b86e$50d7ecf0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <200706270032.44617.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 26 June 2007 23:50, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > > Note that it's not a real Apollo capable of running Domain/OS - > > the machine's all HP and just trading on the nostalgia value of > > the Apollo name.... > > Yeah, I wasn't even aware that HP had put the "HP-Apollo" name on the > 700 series machiens; I though they'd dropped that after the 400 > series? No. > I also question whether the thing will run Linux as he says in the > auction description....Open/NetBSD certainly, but I've not seen a > PA-RISC port of Linux. http://www.debian.org/ports/hppa/ I've installed it on C110 and possibly HP "Apollo 715" systems a few years ago... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jun 27 00:11:43 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 06:11:43 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <248028.27018.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008801c7b879$a7de8440$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....So the criteria for uninteresting has become whether >or not it can run a particular program/s? Nope, the criteria for "uninteresting" is whatever the individual collector deems those criteria to be for himself.... >> But basically, a PC compatible is a PC compatible. >>We've all seen a thousand of them. Who cares any more? > > The problem is when people utter those words it's >really indicative of a unit with an 80x86. OK, it's blatantly obvious from that comment to Liam that you're determined to misconstrue what he's saying at all costs. Goodbye, I'm not wasting any more breath.... TTFN - Pete. From fernande at internet1.net Wed Jun 27 01:10:33 2007 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 02:10:33 -0400 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <46803D2B.14032.2C6C5A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46800C8D.15208.208DE7A@cclist.sydex.com>, <468095F9.6020709@internet1.net> <46803D2B.14032.2C6C5A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4681FF59.8050500@internet1.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Unless you're accustomed to drinking a liter at a time (that'd send > you running for the loo!), mineral oil passes through the GI tract > without being absorbed to any appreciable degree--pretty much like > the silica in table salt (probably better than Kosher salt, which > often uses sodium ferrocyanide). I thought Kosher salt was supposed to be just salt? I did see one package labeled as Kosher that did have an anti-clumping additive..... is that what the sodium ferrocyanide is? > It's also used as transformer oil. And you can submerge your PC with > it for cooling: > > http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php I hadn't seen that particular project, but I did see a similar project, online. The particular one I read about was actually being refrigerated, but the thickening of the oil at low temps. was hampering the project. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jun 27 02:04:18 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:04:18 +0100 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <002d01c7b873$56415320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> <006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game> <002d01c7b873$56415320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706270004n557123d2nbdab384293f54103@mail.gmail.com> On 27/06/07, Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >....I do wonder why people rip to MP3 in this age of cheap > >storage.... > > Because if you're only listening to the .MP3s on your computer or via an MP3 > player/jukebox you really can't hear the loss in quality - even 128Kbps-VBR > is perfectly acceptable under these circumstances, to my ear at least (BTW I > said "acceptable", not "fine"!). > Almost on topic(only a year to go), I've somewhere still got my old Diamond Rio PMP 300 mp3 player - One of the first available; certainly around here. Came with a massive 32MB internal memory (but could take an additional 32MB Smartmedia card but I never had one). Cost me best part of ?100 new. ($200). I pretty much stopped using it when I upgraded the Windows PC as the drivers were Win95 only - parallel port interface - and didn't work under NT. I could only get about 4 songs on it at a barely acceptable encoding rate of 128Kbs - the software defaulted to 96Kbs, ISTR, which was dire. I did once set up a not-so-old-at-the-time 80486 based PC to play mp3s.. found some DOS based software that was quite nice; even faded one track into the next. I couldn't play them under windows - it was just too slow! These days I do everything in MP3 at 192Kbs or above.. sounds fine to me with my non-audiophile ears.. (and I just picked up a little 1GB player for ?15 [$30].. that beats the mp3 capable portable cd-player we bought last time in both capacity and price! They'll be giving them away free with corn flakes next!) Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 27 02:09:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 03:09:30 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <119546.35378.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <119546.35378.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8229262A-9AF1-4118-8001-19B7CF2AEA85@neurotica.com> On Jun 26, 2007, at 8:01 PM, Chris M wrote: >> The SBC is currently sitting on the table behind >> the 8/m, mostly >> due to laziness on my part. The disk images reside >> on the SBC's >> system disk, which is a 1GB CF MicroDrive plugged >> into the SBC via a >> daughterboard. The SBC is headless; I access it >> over the network. > > You ought to document this arrangement. I would be happy to. Perhaps I'll take some pictures of it tomorrow. > I get the jist of most of it, but yer SBC must have integral ethernet. It does. > When I see SBC I think Ampro or something LOL. It's very similar to an Ampro x86 SBC that I also have in my junk box. (if I could only turn it into a LittleBoard..) The SBC is a Teknor VIPer 830. > And what sort of daughterboard (PC-104?). Not PC/104...The Teknor board has a mezzanine slot (which I think is proprietary) which takes a small daughterboard that's not much bigger than a CF card. You plug the CF card into the daughterboard, then snap that assembly onto the SBC. It's quite a nice arrangement. > I have > a few PMMX SBC's that I believe have ISA slot > capability (maybe even PCI), and even my Ampro Little > Board/PC has a header w/ISA signals. Yes, this one is similar. It can take PC/104 and PC/104+ boards, and the SBC itself can plug into a passive 16-bit ISA backplane. I always found it odd that a board that has PC/104+ (which is PCI on a different connector) capability would have an ISA card-edge connector on it instead of PCI. > Some earlyish > SBC's have "flash" storgage capability, RE Robot/Vesta > OEM-188, but that's something different I take it > (like eeprom?). Is it DiskOnChip(tm)? Many SBCs can take those, both early and modern. I have a small pile of them somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 27 02:12:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 03:12:34 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <9e2403920706262039h3fbd2bcob16ed1b95e38a02b@mail.gmail.com> References: <0JK900GZUTJ5LSW1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <9e2403920706262039h3fbd2bcob16ed1b95e38a02b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5F26BB14-642B-47F3-8845-AE47B48A2DAB@neurotica.com> On Jun 26, 2007, at 11:39 PM, Josef Chessor wrote: > My primary minicomputer is a Data General Eclipse MV7800/U with twin > 16-port serial boards, a Cipher tape drive, and two Century Data > Systems giant fixed disc drives. (I'd trade it in a heartbeat for a > minicomputer that didn't require 40 amps to start up. As such, it > sits unpowered since 1993 because I don't have the knowledge to wire > up the dedicated power to it, and to test it properly) > > Anyone got a machine with a programmer's panel that wants to > trade? ;-) Mmmmmmmmmm. On what continent does this delicious DG beast reside? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 27 02:28:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:28:33 -0700 Subject: MFM hard drive data recovery questions/ideas (help needed) In-Reply-To: <1618387.235731182899307591.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> References: <1618387.235731182899307591.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: <4681AF31.3362.401BCF3@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jun 2007 at 19:08, David W. Erhart wrote: > It's time to come up with a "Plan B". Does anyone have a suggestion > about how to read the "raw" data from the MFM hard disk? I was > thinking about putting in into an older PC based system with an MFM > controller and using some utilities to dump sectors to files that I > could convert into something readable/usable. I haven't done this > before so I'm hoping someone smarter has a 'cunning plan' of how to do > this. I'm a programmer and don't mind write some utilities to pick > apart the data after it's off the hard drive. David, I can only vaguely remember seeing Pinnacles when my firm was looking for micro alternatives to another VAX and 68K systems were on the list We eventually ended up with a Plexus and were very unhappy with the performance. Water under the bridge. I think the chances of a PC MFM controller making sense out of your hard disk are remote at best. Address marks, CRC polynomials and a host of other variables generally makes for lots of incompatibility between controllers. But it might give you some good information. By hooking the drive up to PC and then using INT 13 services to probe sectors at random, you should be able to determine if the drive will at least seek. You'll get "sector not found" or "seek error" status back, but you'll be able to observe the drive and see if it's working. You can also try another MFM drive on the Pinnacle to see if it's at least accessed by the controller. What's the controller chip on the Pinnacle for the hard disk? Do you have any documentation on the system? Cheers, Chuck From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jun 27 02:30:56 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:30:56 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706262032u23eb7e6cnafab3c155505d694@mail.gmail.com> References: <0JK900GRIU06MCS2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <51ea77730706262032u23eb7e6cnafab3c155505d694@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706270030y428ff40bt3668239563d9fccc@mail.gmail.com> On 27/06/07, Jason T wrote: > On 6/26/07, Allison wrote: > > > odd reason. I just wish someone would make a PC keyboard without > > the numeric keypad at all, just slice it off to the right of the > > http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9242/subcatid/0/id/243752 > > Unfortunately they're fairly rare. Even that site is sold out of them :( > There's always the Cherry G84 range.. keypads without keyboards and keyboards wkthout keypads. Available in PS/2 and USB versions, and I think dual-mode too. http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=Cherry+G84&scoring=p From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 27 03:20:18 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 03:20:18 -0500 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> <006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <46821DC2.6020007@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > While I could care less what media people like (Vinyl, tape, cd, etc) I do > wonder why people rip to MP3 in this age of cheap storage, why not use > something lossless and capture all of the original music? Because it still isn't cheap. When I can get a terabyte drive for the cost of a fast food lunch, then it's cheap. Until then, I have to make do with what I have. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jun 27 03:45:43 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:45:43 +0100 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <46821DC2.6020007@oldskool.org> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> <006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game> <46821DC2.6020007@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706270145j4ca63628s2d61c2f12d7f6c26@mail.gmail.com> On 27/06/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Because it still isn't cheap. When I can get a terabyte drive for the > cost of a fast food lunch, then it's cheap. Until then, I have to make > do with what I have. Hmm... 1TB USB drive (LaCie) ?179.99... a burger and a pizza .. ?180... Of course, that's paying a /little/ over the odds for the food ... From steerex at mindspring.com Wed Jun 27 05:01:40 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 06:01:40 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? Message-ID: <01C7B880.A4000D60@MAGGIE> They are pretty machines, most definitely. In the "odd PCs" department, I have to mention the Seequa Chameleon. It has an 8088 and a Z80, so it can run DOS, CP/M-80, or CP/M-86. A friend and mentor had one when I was in my teens (mid-1980s) and I got to use it a fair bit. I really liked it. The display (green) was bright and sharp, and the keyboard had a nice feel. As a "luggable", the mechanical design was similar to that of the Kaypro systems, but if memory serves, it was slightly smaller. A good machine overall. I hope to have one here someday; that will certainly bring back some memories. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL I have one in excellent condition. Wanna make an offer? SteveRob begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(BT*`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 at 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`4 $```$````-`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````6P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````$=E;F5R86P at 1&ES8W5S``,P`0```!8```!C8W1E8VA 8VQAGD6/XDE!'%D4``!X`'@P!```` M!0```%--5% `````'@`?# $````7````$!M:6YD;!TE"OL540OR8P! 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BHKC'`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ``````P`--/TW``#(:KC' ` end From andy.piercy at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 05:19:59 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:19:59 +0100 Subject: MFM hard drive data recovery questions/ideas (help needed) In-Reply-To: <4681AF31.3362.401BCF3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1618387.235731182899307591.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <4681AF31.3362.401BCF3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: What make is the drive? Do the heads un-load? If it's a Micropolis there is a know issue that is affects the drive over the course of time which was pointed out to me and the fix worked a treat! Have a look on the alias archive for "sticky bumpers". Ta, Andy. On 27/06/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 26 Jun 2007 at 19:08, David W. Erhart wrote: > > > It's time to come up with a "Plan B". Does anyone have a suggestion > > about how to read the "raw" data from the MFM hard disk? I was > > thinking about putting in into an older PC based system with an MFM > > controller and using some utilities to dump sectors to files that I > > could convert into something readable/usable. I haven't done this > > before so I'm hoping someone smarter has a 'cunning plan' of how to do > > this. I'm a programmer and don't mind write some utilities to pick > > apart the data after it's off the hard drive. > > David, I can only vaguely remember seeing Pinnacles when my firm was > looking for micro alternatives to another VAX and 68K systems were on > the list We eventually ended up with a Plexus and were very unhappy > with the performance. Water under the bridge. > > I think the chances of a PC MFM controller making sense out of your > hard disk are remote at best. Address marks, CRC polynomials and a > host of other variables generally makes for lots of incompatibility > between controllers. But it might give you some good information. > > By hooking the drive up to PC and then using INT 13 services to probe > sectors at random, you should be able to determine if the drive will > at least seek. You'll get "sector not found" or "seek error" status > back, but you'll be able to observe the drive and see if it's > working. > > You can also try another MFM drive on the Pinnacle to see if it's at > least accessed by the controller. > > What's the controller chip on the Pinnacle for the hard disk? > > Do you have any documentation on the system? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 06:54:30 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 04:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MFM hard drive data recovery questions/ideas (help needed) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <128361.17874.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Andy Piercy wrote: > What make is the drive? > > Do the heads un-load? > Have a look on the alias archive for "sticky > bumpers". I agree - the Micropolis drives are very prone to that. It'll spin, but the heads never load and it won't seek because they're glued to their stop with the rubber bumper pad. Also, as stupid as it sounds, are you running the machine in it's normal physical orientation, or are you running it on it's side, on a workbench? Sometimes, if the drive is really well used, if the drive was formatted and working whilst horizontal, it won't work properly when turned on it's side. Combination of the normal effects of gravity on the device, and well worn stepper motors cause the heads to not line up with the tracks. Just a thought. -Ian From paisley at erols.com Wed Jun 27 07:17:43 2007 From: paisley at erols.com (Todd Paisley) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:17:43 -0400 Subject: PDP/8E CPU Boards References: <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca> <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com><200706261909.PAA23298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1182895907.8859.11.camel@elric> Message-ID: <54ef01c7b8b5$2a91fb70$020a0a0a@cj2a> I am a proud new owner of a PDP-8/E. Well, more like the proud new owner of a PDP-8/E chassis with a few boards! I am looking for the M8300 and M8310 CPU boards and memory for it. Does anyone have any of these laying around? Does anyone know of anyone who might make (or have a design) for a board using semiconductor memory? Thanks! Todd Paisley From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 07:18:09 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:18:09 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <8B5E9E17-FC74-49F9-9EB2-01A3AE8213BE@neurotica.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0706260814hf175c34x726bc96f7a80e04f@mail.gmail.com> <8B5E9E17-FC74-49F9-9EB2-01A3AE8213BE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0706270518s47d2995bv4951d093dfb3b77e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/26/07, Dave McGuire wrote: In the "odd PCs" department, I have to mention the Seequa > Chameleon. It has an 8088 and a Z80, so it can run DOS, CP/M-80, or > CP/M-86. The DEC Rainbow 100 was a similar machine, it had a 8086 and a Z/80, and could triple (or quad) boot into CPM/80, CPM/86, MS-DOS, or act as a VT-220 via hardware emulation. It didn't get far as it used wacky 400Kb single sided quad density floppies that hardly anyone else used. According to Wikipedia, DEC even ported Windows 1.0 to it. A couple more oddities- The Tandy 2000 was one of the few 80186 based clones, and ran well behaved MS-DOS apps, though it had somewhat oddball video hardware, keyboard and serial port setup. It required a custom version of DOS, and MS even ported Xenix to it. The Atari Portfolio was probably the first palmtop device that ran DOS apps, though it was such a wacky architecture it's software support was limited. The HP 100 series were some of the first laptop computers that could run DOS. It had DOS, Basic, Lotus and a few other productivity apps in ROM, and used the somewhat odd HP-IL bus to interface with peripherals, among them a battery powered disk drive. From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Wed Jun 27 07:57:02 2007 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:57:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: nice but OT (HP/Apollo workstation) Message-ID: Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >On Tuesday 26 June 2007 23:50, Ensor wrote: > > I also question whether the thing will run Linux as he says in the > > auction description....Open/NetBSD certainly, but I've not seen a > > PA-RISC port of Linux. > > http://www.debian.org/ports/hppa/ > >I've installed it on C110 and possibly HP "Apollo 715" systems a few > years ago... The Debian GNU/Linux port to PA-RISC mature and fully supported. I've used it for the last 5 years or so on two boxes. I first installed it on a nice HP 715/100 system and used it as a desktop with KDE. It was slow, but not unusable. My webserver currently is a nearly OT HP Visualize B2000 workstation running at 400MHz (www.approximatrix.com). It runs Apache 2 and Zope/Plone content management system on top of Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 HPPA. The PA-RISC hardware is rock-solid, and Linux is well supported on it, thanks to HP. I've never had a system crash except when an external SCSI disk catastrophically failed (not the HP system's fault). I would suggest trying out Linux on the 700 series systems people have as I pesonally can't stand HP-UX. The NetBSD port to the PA-RISC is, by comparison, completely immature. IIRC, up until last year, they didn't even support booting from CD. Their install procedure was laughable at best (required another NetBSD machine to prep the disks or something...), and it made me wonder what their criteria was for "supporting" an architecture. jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 09:59:26 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:59:26 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <8229262A-9AF1-4118-8001-19B7CF2AEA85@neurotica.com> References: <119546.35378.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <8229262A-9AF1-4118-8001-19B7CF2AEA85@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6/27/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > And what sort of daughterboard (PC-104?). > > Not PC/104... Hmm... I happen to have a 486DX33 that's has both ISA fingers and PC/104 sockets. No integral Ethernet or video, but has serial/parallel/ATA. If I can find a way to get even 10Mbit Ethernet on it easily, I've contemplated using it for a little network peripheral box, but it'd also make a nice emulated RX02 like yours. One thought was an "ISA staple" board - two slots - one for the CPU, one for a NIC. It still wouldn't be too large to be convenient. Not as nice as one board, but much nicer than a full-on cased PC. > Yes, this one is similar. It can take PC/104 and PC/104+ boards, > and the SBC itself can plug into a passive 16-bit ISA backplane. I > always found it odd that a board that has PC/104+ (which is PCI on a > different connector) capability would have an ISA card-edge connector > on it instead of PCI. That does sound strange, but perhaps it's designed to work with older backplanes as an upgrade. > Is it DiskOnChip(tm)? Many SBCs can take those, both early and > modern. I have a small pile of them somewhere. I will have to check, but my 486 SBC might have DoC... How expensive would a 16M or 32M chip be? One can fit JAILBAIT or Damn Small Linux in that (or Linux Router Project in under 2M). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 10:14:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:14:19 -0400 Subject: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80) Message-ID: On 6/26/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Serially connecting would rot though... > > Yeah, kinda. I was just reading some old list threads about PDP-8s and TU58s and emulators - transfer speed aside, the real problem was that most pre-OMNIBUS PDP-8s didn't have a spare serial port (just the console TTY), and that the serial hardware needs to be able to send a Break to the TU-58 to properly initialize and reset the controller in the TU-58, and unmodified PDP-8 hardware can't do that. I did run across a bunch of old 12-bit SIG newsletters from when the TU-58 was new, and all the gyrations folks went through to be able to use them, since at the time, they were about the cheapest mass storage you could get from DEC. One entire aspect of the project was how to mod M706/M707 or KL8E serial interfaces to generate a break. Another aspect was trying to wedge a driver into a couple of pages of code. If all PDP-8s had a spare serial port, it might make sense to have a serially-attached modern mass storage peripheral. Since that's nowhere near universal, it frequently comes down to deciding on which models to support. One of the few disadvantages of the PDP-8 spanning 1965 to 1994 (PDP-8 to DECmate III) is that there's a huge variety of hardware that all runs the same instruction set (give or take a couple instructions), but with an equally huge variety of default peripherals and expansion options. An RX01/RX02-attached device, at least, will work with OMNIBUS machines as well as the VT78 and DECmate I - overall not a bad range to cover. -ethan From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Wed Jun 27 10:31:36 2007 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:31:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? Message-ID: Hey all; So I'm reading "The NEW McGraw-Hill TELECOM Factbook" (Second edition, "A plain English guide anyone can use!", 820 pages, phone book sized) and while delving into the sections on Circuit and Packet switching it occurs to me that these machines are just as much of an object that has enabled our industrial and technological revolution to continue in leaps and bounds as the minis and mainframes of yesteryear. They're also damned cool. Are there people out there, on the list or otherwise, that are actively collecting these machines? Admittedly, unlike a PDP8 you can use (as Dave McGuire does) on a daily basis, a twelve ton NEAX isn't too 'dramatic' as an attention piece. But, according to my little book here, they tend to be multiprocessor, reel-to-reel storage (as they 'reboot' so infrequently they need a very long-lasting storage medium), all sorts of good stuff. And with an average "Mean time between failure of 1 failure in 40 years"... boy, that just speaks for it. So, anyone out there have one of these in their... basement? JP From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Jun 27 10:34:34 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:34:34 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Patrick Finnegan may have mentioned these words: >On Monday 25 June 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > The built-in display was a 1-line 32 character alphanumeric unit. > > Hardly a 'calculator display'. In general you linked up the 9866 > > printer if you wanted a larger 'display' for things like program > > listings. If you wanted graphives 9and were rich!), you eitehr linked > > up a plotter -- there was a pltoter ROM add-on to BASIC that added > > useful statements to drive the plotter -- or you got the HPIB > > interface, an HP1350 'graphics translator' (vector display generator) > > and an HP1311 monitor. I am wondering why you consider the dispaly to > > be an important part of the machine, though. This thing was not > > designed for games, after all. It was designed for scientific data > > processing, data logging, control, and the like. For which yuo > > probably don't need more than a 1-line display. > >I'd say that if it can't play games (graphical or at least a multi-line >text display), then it's not what I'd call a *home* computer. Why do you need a multiline display to play games? [[ Back to the future for a second: Why do you need multicore multiGHz, multigigabyte RAM, multiterabyte HD to play games? ;-) ]] In college, I had to write a game for the Heathkit 3400 microprocessor trainer (one line of 6 7-segment LEDs) and it was quite enjoyable. I can't see why having more than 5x the display size and real alpha capabilities means it can't play games... There was even a game ROM package for the programmable TI-59 (IMHO, it was a computer - it had expandable ROM/RAM, magnetic storage, and even a printer!). The only reason I feel Tony's HP can't be classified as a microcomputer is because I was taught that a microcomputer utilized a microprocessor, and I was taught that the definition of a microprocessor is a processing solution contained entirely on one chip. Anything larger (more than one chip) and it's a mini. As that definition has always seemed logical to me, I've always stuck with it. If one uses my definition for microcomputer, it might be possible to actually figure out what the first home microcomputer is - find the very first one in existence, and it could've been used at home. ;-) If one takes the "Micro" part out of the equation, I see no reason why Tony's HP can't be considered a home computer, tho. That's my two microbits, anyway... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jun 27 10:52:55 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:52:55 -0700 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468287D7.5000209@mainecoon.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 JP Hindin wrote: > So, anyone out there have one of these in their... basement? I wish. Even (or especially) a step-by-step or panel would be fun, but the odds of any of these surviving into the wild seems small -- the manufacturers tended to take them back when upgrades were performed. Quite by accident I do seem to have at least one instance of every member of the Merlin PBX line hanging about, but that's hardly the same thing (even if they do seem utterly bulletproof). - -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGgofNVeEgoxCNq5cRAioNAKCZ7A6Unfb/zB2P637Bn9NNknawWgCdHs71 ChuxB5D8nBK7a7mg0kTkfPs= =r7I4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 10:58:05 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:58:05 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> References: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0706270858m76008252n20b7913ce89d4f42@mail.gmail.com> In this dicussion about "what is a/was the first home computer/ microcopmputer/ personal computer": has anyone considered the definition "what was marketed as such"? Was it aimed at _non-technical_ users (that is, the home market of people that are not engineers, radio amateurs and other electronic hobbyists) This way, I'd include the PET, TRS-80, Apple ][, Sinclairs - but exclude most S-100 machines, KIM, ELF, Kenbak (due to complexity), the HP80s and IBM 5100 (price) and even game consoles and calculators (if programmable) since they were not _marketed_ as computers. Joe. From josefcub at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 11:10:43 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:10:43 -0500 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <5F26BB14-642B-47F3-8845-AE47B48A2DAB@neurotica.com> References: <0JK900GZUTJ5LSW1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <9e2403920706262039h3fbd2bcob16ed1b95e38a02b@mail.gmail.com> <5F26BB14-642B-47F3-8845-AE47B48A2DAB@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920706270910q49ce708eq69d3e4ceede63e9@mail.gmail.com> On 6/27/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Mmmmmmmmmm. On what continent does this delicious DG beast reside? > > -Dave Deep in the heart of the mysterious subcontinent of Texas, I'm afraid. (50mi east of Austin, TX) -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 27 11:19:17 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:19:17 -0700 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? Message-ID: <46828E05.4080509@bitsavers.org> > Are there people out there, on the list or otherwise, that are actively > collecting these machines? Absolutely. There are private collectors with operational CO's. These are serious deep-pockets people who are buying surplussed microwave relay stations and putting museums into them. There are two I know of in San Jose and the central valley in private hands. The telephony collectors have many decades of head start on us computer types. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 27 11:26:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:26:03 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0706270518s47d2995bv4951d093dfb3b77e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com>, <8B5E9E17-FC74-49F9-9EB2-01A3AE8213BE@neurotica.com>, <5f7d1b0e0706270518s47d2995bv4951d093dfb3b77e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46822D2B.27636.2D8302@cclist.sydex.com> For "near-PC-compatibles", how about the Eagle 1600, Olympia People, Apricot--and did anyone mention the HP 110? The Eagle is interesting in that it shares some peripherals with the earlier Eagle 8-bit CP/M systems. There were later PC-compatible Eagles, like the "Eagle PC" and the "Espirit" luggable. At one time, very popular systems. Most of the 8-bit Eagle systems shipped with Spellbinder word processing software; something that I thought would give WordStar a run for its money. The machines were generally very easy to use (Want to add a hard disk? Just plug it in) and well-constructed with attractive price points. Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 27 11:34:44 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:34:44 -0400 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200706271634.l5RGYqVT096889@keith.ezwind.net> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:31:36 -0500 (CDT), JP Hindin wrote: ... >Are there people out there, on the list or otherwise, that are actively >collecting these machines? Admittedly, unlike a PDP8 you can use (as Dave >So, anyone out there have one of these in their... basement? I have a small collection of Assend MAX 1800, 3000, 4000, 4004 and Pipelines 25, 50, 75, 85, 130's again all dateing before Lucent with Ascend Logos. These many of these are now over 10 years old and support T1, BRI, PRI, and 56k Frame Relay. I still keep one ISDN line live into the house to test with it was backup for when the cable went out, till I got DSL and wireless for backup, now I only use it for call forwarding my home office number and keep a Fax on the second line these days. I had an AT&T OC3 switch, logoed before the Lucent name change but sold it a few years back on ebay when I located a second one that has been abandoned in place. It is powered down, yet still connected to some dead fiber, and is stored in place. Who knows it might get light up again someday, but I doubt it, as it was replaced by a OC12 connection which has now been replaced with a GigE cross connect. Somewhere in storage I should still have a Fore Systems ATM switch with two OC3 loops and a bunch of 10/100 cards that should be well over 10 years old now. I also know where there is an old TotalControl with a PRI card or two and some modem cards that was supporting 33.6k dialup till about 5 or 6 years back, its collecting dust now. How about early modems, anyone collect them ? Bob From pechter at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 11:37:15 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:37:15 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70706270030y428ff40bt3668239563d9fccc@mail.gmail.com> References: <0JK900GRIU06MCS2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <51ea77730706262032u23eb7e6cnafab3c155505d694@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70706270030y428ff40bt3668239563d9fccc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/27/07, Rob wrote: > > On 27/06/07, Jason T wrote: > > On 6/26/07, Allison wrote: > > > > > odd reason. I just wish someone would make a PC keyboard without > > > the numeric keypad at all, just slice it off to the right of the > > > > > http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9242/subcatid/0/id/243752 > > > > Unfortunately they're fairly rare. Even that site is sold out of them > :( > > > > There's always the Cherry G84 range.. keypads without keyboards and > keyboards wkthout keypads. Available in PS/2 and USB versions, and I > think dual-mode too. > > http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=Cherry+G84&scoring=p > I've got a couple of the IBM's without the keypad. They were selling for $15.00 when I bought them from MicroExchange years ago. What I want to find is a couple of the ones with the integrated Trackpoint II. One of mine died. -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 11:44:55 2007 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:44:55 +0100 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Heres one I found at a local railway www.archivist.info/pbx/ he has two the lucky person Dave Caroline From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Jun 27 11:53:10 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:53:10 -0400 Subject: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468295F6.5050801@nktelco.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > and expansion options. An RX01/RX02-attached device, at least, will > work with OMNIBUS machines as well as the VT78 and DECmate I - overall > not a bad range to cover. I did that using a PC as the external storage and a PC parallel port as the interface. Lets me run my PDP-8/e and PDP-11/40. DECtape is cool, but a little slow. -chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 12:02:03 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:02:03 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> References: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 6/27/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >I'd say that if it can't play games (graphical or at least a multi-line > >text display), then it's not what I'd call a *home* computer. > > Why do you need a multiline display to play games? Need?!? If it doesn't provide food, shelter, or security, I'd say "need" isn't the right idea... > In college, I had to write a game for the Heathkit 3400 microprocessor > trainer (one line of 6 7-segment LEDs) and it was quite enjoyable. I can't > see why having more than 5x the display size and real alpha capabilities > means it can't play games... Can't play games? Of course a 3400 or a KIM or an AIM-65 can play games. They however are incredibly limited compared to even a VIC-20's 22x23 screen or a more common 40x25 screen or a luxurious 80x24 screen, or, as I mentioned earlier, even a printing terminal. I played plenty of games on a DECwriter with an acoustic coupler. The "active region" was only one line, but I could see everything that went before. When your active region is your only region, the burden is on the player to remember what just happened, and on the game designer to create games that fit into 6x1 or 20x1 or 32x1 characters, especially when it's done with 7-segment displays. Think back to the games in Dave Ahl's "101 Computer Games" - many of those could be played on a small alphanumeric single-line display, but it makes the game harder for the player to remember the details. Try the FOCAL classic "Hammurabi" on a 6x1 display. At least something like a lunar lander works OK on a tiny display. Not that it was a standard size in 1977, but as soon as you get into character grids like 4x20 or 2x40 like some of the inexpensive modern LCD displays, that second dimension adds layers and layers of ease to game design and game play. > The only reason I feel Tony's HP can't be classified as a microcomputer is > because I was taught that a microcomputer utilized a microprocessor, and I > was taught that the definition of a microprocessor is a processing solution > contained entirely on one chip. Anything larger (more than one chip) and > it's a mini. As that definition has always seemed logical to me, I've > always stuck with it. While I mostly agree with your definition, there are plenty of exceptions that prove that you have to be flexible. The RCA 1801 is a pair of chips that's functionally compatible with the 1802 (and only slightly older). Does that mean that the 1801 is a mini, and the 1802 is a micro? The PDP-8 is normally considered a mini, but from the VT78 onward, it's been implemented commercially with an IM6100 or IM6120 microprocessor - while one might argue that only the VT78 and DECmates are micros, they can use many of the same peripherals, have the same amount of memory, and run more-or-less the same OS (minor TTY interface instruction flag variations aside) so provide a similar user experience to, say, a PDP-8/e with a VT100 attached to it. Does that make the DECmate I a mini or the PDP-8/a a micro? I'd say that it's a rather blurry line there. One can escape sematically ("the IM6100 is a microprocessor implementation of a minicomputer architecture"), but then what's an Intercept Jr? _That_ is assuredly a single-board micro by just about any definition you can propose (1K-4K of RAM, LEDs, toggle switches, IM6100 processor chip, single board...) except the PDP-8 instruction set. The DECmate I can take up to four 14" drives that each dwarf the CPU in volume and weight, along with two dual 8" floppy drives - in other words, a full 6' rack of drives... is it still a micro? I don't recall a 1970s "home computer" with a set of peripherals as large as a phone booth, and that's just by adding a single card into the DECmate (the RL278). When you get bored, you can even borrow a couple of those drives and hang them off of your contemporary VAX-11/780 (or your 1985-era microprocessor-based MicroVAX II). Quite a few fuzzy boundaries in there if you look a few years forward into the 1980s. > If one uses my definition for microcomputer, it might be possible to > actually figure out what the first home microcomputer is - find the very > first one in existence, and it could've been used at home. ;-) If one takes > the "Micro" part out of the equation, I see no reason why Tony's HP can't > be considered a home computer, tho. I'm still leery of grouping Tony's HP in with "home computers". Since it has a single point of access - the keyboard and display, it's easy to argue that it's a "personal computer", but then, so would be a PDP-8/a that one bought to use at home (yes... that was done back in the day, just not as commonly as with cheaper machines). One of the problems of "firsts" is that there is no single definition as to all the elements that make something "the" first. It's a lot easier to say "one of the first" with less fear of contradiction. The classic case we've been arguing has been PET/Apple/TRS-80... I think as the events recede into the distance, it will most likely be considered that all three came out "about the same time" and all three were popular examples of wildly successful "home computers". Each one of them can lay claim to the first this or the first that, but the trio have more of a significance to me that they were the next wave after the flurry of S-100 machines that were also an incredible success just a few years earlier. Since I got into computing as a kid, about the time all this was happening, I can say that from my viewpoint, I knew there were computers in some people's homes, mostly Hams, they were big, boxy, expensive, and "hard to use" (remember - this is a 10-year-old kid's view). When the PET and the the Apple and the TRS-80 came out, they were physically smaller than an Imsai and a ADM3A, "easier to use" since they *all* had BASIC in ROM, and did not require addons to be purchased out-of-the-box (the original PET had a cassette player built-in, the early TRS-80s were either sold with cassette players, or you could use one you probably already owned). At the very least, you could turn them on and be entering a BASIC program in seconds, even if you couldn't save it. Not so with an Altair or a KIM or an Elf. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 27 13:10:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:10:04 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46814956.11631.273E0C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com>, <728379.47444.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <46814956.11631.273E0C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4682A7FC.7090304@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Jun 2007 at 14:48, Chris M wrote: > >> FWIW, I was in contact w/a dude in the Chicago area >> some time ago who had been working on a mod for the >> Tandy 2000 that would make it 100% PC compatible. It >> involved an extensive rewrite of IO.sys, which I had >> thought would be a big no-no, but from what you're >> saying, not really. I do believe he was hacking >> Tandy's specific DOS though. Never finished it sadly. > > Not possible, unless you mean by "100% compatible", compatible on a > BIOS level. It's debatable whether the IBM PC was ever even compatible with itself, never mind what the clone lot were doing :-) From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 13:30:41 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:30:41 -0500 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730706271130g668a12aem798dfc44b014eb6d@mail.gmail.com> On 6/27/07, JP Hindin wrote: > Are there people out there, on the list or otherwise, that are actively > collecting these machines? Admittedly, unlike a PDP8 you can use (as Dave There are several folks on the TCI mailing list (telephonecollectors.org) who are also heavily into mechanical switching and have (or have built) various examples of SxS, panel and xbar switches at home. They publish a "Switcher's Quarterly" newsletter on the topic. They've also got a private "POTS" network, with its own number plans, running over IP with tools like Asterix. You can actually DTMF into someone's private Crossbar switch (most likely in their basements :) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 27 13:27:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:27:22 -0500 Subject: HP-83/85 pocket booklets Message-ID: <4682AC0A.7050803@yahoo.co.uk> Does anyone else on here have good copies of the following: HP-85 Mass Storage ROM Pocket Guide (00085-90139) HP-85 Plotter/Printer ROM Pocket Guide (00085-90141) HP-85 BASIC Reference Card (00085-90039) HP-85 Pocket Guide (00085-90040) Assembler ROM HP-83/85 Pocket Guide (00085-90445) Advanced Programming ROM Pocket Guide HP-83/85 (00085-90147) I/O ROM and Interface Pocket Guide Series 80 (00087-90122) ... the ones I unearthed today are decaying extremely badly, with chunks of the pages missing, lots of brown discolouration, and the surface of the main HP-85 pocket guide's cover is actually falling off. If I were *very* careful I might just get a scan out of them if I first snip the staples and separate the pages (with staples in place I don't think they'll open up and lay flat without crumbling into dust). If someone else has good copies though already I'll not waste my time... If someone already has high-res colour scans then even better :-) (I have no idea what happened to them to make them like this - whilst I've seen older 'rough' paper discolour and go a little brittle, I've never seen more recent 'glossy' paper like this just start to completely crumble into nothing) cheers Jules From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 13:41:49 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:41:49 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <728379.47444.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com> <728379.47444.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0706271141n3a2b5a9ei2a0184a641955e29@mail.gmail.com> On 6/26/07, Chris M wrote: > > There were a few Unisys '286 boxes that UIM don't run > DOS. The Televideo Personal Mini PM/4t/PM/16t don't > run DOS (not natively anyway). I'm sure the Northstar > Dimension don't neither. There are others. I have a beastly 80386 based Banyan VNS100 server that, I'm pretty sure, only runs VINES. I haven't fired it up yet, but seeing as how it only does serial terminal connections for direct I/O, I'm pretty sure it won't want to run DOS. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 13:44:03 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:44:03 -0400 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <46828E05.4080509@bitsavers.org> References: <46828E05.4080509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Absolutely. There are private collectors with operational CO's. These are > serious deep-pockets people who are buying surplussed microwave relay stations > and putting museums into them. There are two I know of in San Jose and the > central valley in private hands. > > The telephony collectors have many decades of head start on us computer types. The problem is that 99 1/2 of 100 of the telephone guys are only interested in the last mile. -- Will From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 27 13:36:03 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:36:03 -0500 Subject: Windows DRAM cameras again... Message-ID: <4682AE13.1040500@yahoo.co.uk> Another magazine article unearthed on the subject of pulling the lid on a DRAM chip and using it as a camera sensor... This time it was in the May 1984 issue of "Your Robot" magazine, and looks to be intended for use with a Spectrum. Unfortunately the article was a two-parter; only the second part (containing the software) is in this issue and the hardware side was in the previous issue. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 13:52:41 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:52:41 -0400 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <200706271634.l5RGYqVT096889@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200706271634.l5RGYqVT096889@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > How about early modems, anyone collect them ? No. Nobody does. The only folks that actively collect modems are the RTTY (radio Teletype) guys, and those modems are pretty alien to what we computer guys know as modems. I suppose I accumulate modems, simply because some I do not want scrapped. 205B? -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 27 13:54:41 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:54:41 -0600 Subject: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:53:10 -0400. <468295F6.5050801@nktelco.net> Message-ID: In article <468295F6.5050801 at nktelco.net>, C H Dickman writes: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > and expansion options. An RX01/RX02-attached device, at least, will > > work with OMNIBUS machines as well as the VT78 and DECmate I - overall > > not a bad range to cover. > > I did that using a PC as the external storage and a PC parallel port as > the interface. Lets me run my PDP-8/e and PDP-11/40. DECtape is cool, > but a little slow. Do you have software/interface schematics? I have a DECmate I and no RX0[12] drives. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jun 27 01:45:30 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 07:45:30 +0100 Subject: MFM hard drive data recovery questions/ideas (help needed) In-Reply-To: <1618387.235731182899307591.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> References: <1618387.235731182899307591.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: <1182926730.8859.15.camel@elric> On Tue, 2007-06-26 at 19:08 -0400, David W. Erhart wrote: > Hello cctalkers, > > I'm trying to help someone recover data from an MFM drive in an old Pinnacle 1a system that had MirageOS installed. The system hasn't been booted in years and no longer boots to the hard disk. The drive spins up and sounds okay. We've tried to track down a copy of the MirageOS boot diskettes for the Pinnacle 1a system but haven't found any after looking for months. > > It's time to come up with a "Plan B". Does anyone have a suggestion about how to read the "raw" data from the MFM hard disk? I was thinking about putting in into an older PC based system with an MFM controller and using some utilities to dump sectors to files that I could convert into something readable/usable. I haven't done this before so I'm hoping someone smarter has a 'cunning plan' of how to do this. I'm a programmer and don't mind write some utilities to pick apart the data after it's off the hard drive. > > Any ideas are appreciated. Unfortunately MFM controllers tend not to be interchangeable. For the most part, you can't swap a drive onto a different controller and expect it to read and write properly. I suppose if you're just reading it, it can't hurt to try. Doubtless someone will point out why it's a bad idea to do that though. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 27 09:00:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:00:04 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 Message-ID: <0JKA009H3S69EAAK@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 03:09:30 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Jun 26, 2007, at 8:01 PM, Chris M wrote: >>> The SBC is currently sitting on the table behind >>> the 8/m, mostly >>> due to laziness on my part. The disk images reside >>> on the SBC's >>> system disk, which is a 1GB CF MicroDrive plugged >>> into the SBC via a >>> daughterboard. The SBC is headless; I access it >>> over the network. >> >> You ought to document this arrangement. > > I would be happy to. Perhaps I'll take some pictures of it tomorrow. If you do a simple block diagram and maybe descriptions of software on both the host (pdp-8) and SBC would be helpful or better yet sources. >> I get the jist of most of it, but yer SBC must have integral ethernet. > > It does. > >> When I see SBC I think Ampro or something LOL. > > It's very similar to an Ampro x86 SBC that I also have in my junk >box. (if I could only turn it into a LittleBoard..) The SBC is a >Teknor VIPer 830. > I suspect any SBC or PC that could run headless and has disk would work given the right code and interface. I've considered a small 8085 powered board with a IDE or CF drive to do that. I have a BCC180 (z180 with 256k ram) and lots of parallel IO that would be a good candidate for that. For PDP-8 ops, even 10mb is a "large" disk I'm sure so even a 1mb ram could work well as a "ramdisk". Allison >> And what sort of daughterboard (PC-104?). > > Not PC/104...The Teknor board has a mezzanine slot (which I think >is proprietary) which takes a small daughterboard that's not much >bigger than a CF card. You plug the CF card into the daughterboard, >then snap that assembly onto the SBC. It's quite a nice arrangement. > >> I have >> a few PMMX SBC's that I believe have ISA slot >> capability (maybe even PCI), and even my Ampro Little >> Board/PC has a header w/ISA signals. > > Yes, this one is similar. It can take PC/104 and PC/104+ boards, >and the SBC itself can plug into a passive 16-bit ISA backplane. I >always found it odd that a board that has PC/104+ (which is PCI on a >different connector) capability would have an ISA card-edge connector >on it instead of PCI. > >> Some earlyish >> SBC's have "flash" storgage capability, RE Robot/Vesta >> OEM-188, but that's something different I take it >> (like eeprom?). > > Is it DiskOnChip(tm)? Many SBCs can take those, both early and >modern. I have a small pile of them somewhere. > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jun 27 10:45:04 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:45:04 +0100 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200706271645.04284.gordon@gjcp.net> On Wednesday 27 June 2007 16:31:36 JP Hindin wrote: > So, anyone out there have one of these in their... basement? I recently donated a suitcase-sized Plessey switch to a local electronics club. I suppose I ought to go and see what ROMs are on the CPU board and what's in them... Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 27 10:42:40 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:42:40 -0400 Subject: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80) Message-ID: <0JKA00HNOWX82O86@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys,was Re: The late, great TRS-80) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:14:19 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 6/26/07, Dave McGuire wrote: >> > Serially connecting would rot though... >> >> Yeah, kinda. > >I was just reading some old list threads about PDP-8s and TU58s and >emulators - transfer speed aside, the real problem was that most >pre-OMNIBUS PDP-8s didn't have a spare serial port (just the console >TTY), and that the serial hardware needs to be able to send a Break to >the TU-58 to properly initialize and reset the controller in the >TU-58, and unmodified PDP-8 hardware can't do that. I did run across >a bunch of old 12-bit SIG newsletters from when the TU-58 was new, and >all the gyrations folks went through to be able to use them, since at >the time, they were about the cheapest mass storage you could get from >DEC. One entire aspect of the project was how to mod M706/M707 or >KL8E serial interfaces to generate a break. Another aspect was trying >to wedge a driver into a couple of pages of code. Using a Tu58 on an -8 is not a goot match and there are lots of gyrations. > >If all PDP-8s had a spare serial port, it might make sense to have a >serially-attached modern mass storage peripheral. Adding a second serial is trivial as there were many differnt serial cards available. To make a TTY card RS232/432 passable is also not hard. > Since that's >nowhere near universal, it frequently comes down to deciding on which >models to support. One of the few disadvantages of the PDP-8 spanning >1965 to 1994 (PDP-8 to DECmate III) is that there's a huge variety of >hardware that all runs the same instruction set (give or take a couple >instructions), but with an equally huge variety of default peripherals >and expansion options. An RX01/RX02-attached device, at least, will >work with OMNIBUS machines as well as the VT78 and DECmate I - overall >not a bad range to cover. > >-ethan What is possible now is a small micro and a big static ram of 512k are which fairly easy to find it's not unreasonable to simulate a RX02 using a micro at the end of a serial line (or parallel) and NOT use the protocal of TU58. The cpu/micro used does not have to be very high powered or fast as all it's doing is data transfer and PDP-8 PIO is usually slower than 30-40K words/sec. In the end what is used is more a matter of convenince than technology. I happen to be lucky(?) as my 8f has two serial cards but nothing else device wise. One of th cards is the usual console TTY but the other is a UART based M8652 that were often used for modem banks and serial data concentrators/switches made using PDP-8s. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 14:48:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:48:01 -0400 Subject: Emulating an RX02 via parallel port (was Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80) Message-ID: On 6/27/07, Allison wrote: > For PDP-8 ops, even 10mb is a "large" disk I'm sure so even a 1mb ram > could work well as a "ramdisk". Sure... since OS/8 uses 12-bit block pointers, 10MB works out to 5 "devices". 1MB of RAM for a RAM disk isn't tiny, either. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 15:02:14 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:02:14 -0400 Subject: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80) In-Reply-To: <0JKA00HNOWX82O86@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JKA00HNOWX82O86@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 6/27/07, Allison wrote: > Using a Tu58 on an -8 is not a goot match and there are lots of gyrations. Agreed. > >If all PDP-8s had a spare serial port, it might make sense to have a > >serially-attached modern mass storage peripheral. > > Adding a second serial is trivial as there were many differnt serial > cards available. To make a TTY card RS232/432 passable is also not hard. It's trivial from the OMNIBUS days onward to add another serial port. Not so trivial for a Straight-8, an -8/S, an -8/L or -8/i. One may argue that machines that old don't matter so much, but I do happen to have a BM08 on one --8/L (total of 12K) and would like to be able to bring up OS/8 on it someday. I'd also like to expand my -8/i to have 8K of core (and perhaps a full 32K eventually) and bring OS/8 up on that as well. Changing out 20mA for RS-232 isn't hard at all with the older machines - Vince Slyngstad made some EIA paddle cards for pre-OMNIBUS boxes. I have at least two of his cards. Some day, I'll find the time to assemble them, but for now, I'm fine with hanging a VT220 off of my -8/L with a 20mA cable. > What is possible now is a small micro and a big static ram of 512k are > which fairly easy to find it's not unreasonable to simulate a RX02 > using a micro at the end of a serial line (or parallel) and NOT use > the protocal of TU58. Sure. There's no requirement to use the TU58 protocol, it's just understood, is out there, and happens to work with a real device. If you are going to write an OS/8 driver anyway, there's no reason to stick with a protocol that's hard to use. I just dredged up an old thread in my reading where someone suggested the TU-58 as the "obvious" device for a diskless PDP-8. I was just heading that debate off at the pass, since it was extensively investigated over 20 years ago and determined to be difficult, technically. > The cpu/micro used does not have to be very high > powered or fast as all it's doing is data transfer and PDP-8 PIO is > usually slower than 30-40K words/sec. Certainly not if you are rolling your own interface. If you are trying to make a plug-compatible RX02 emulator, there might be some bit-level stuff that's timing critical, but the overall bandwidth is rather low by modern standards. > In the end what is used is more a matter of convenince than technology. Agreed. > I happen to be lucky(?) as my 8f has two serial cards but nothing > else device wise. One of th cards is the usual console TTY but the > other is a UART based M8652 that were often used for modem > banks and serial data concentrators/switches made using PDP-8s. Nice. In amongst all the other recent PDP-8 discussions, I have to wonder that if one was going to be spending $$$ on a 1 sq ft. PCB with edge fingers and whatever line drivers, what would be a good choice of peripheral options to stack on the same board. For example, the DKC8AA has several independent devices on one hex-height card. In a quad-height form factor, one could easily stuff two RX8Es, and at least one, if not two KL8Es, which should take care of a lot of external I/O requirements. The RX8Es would use the standard OS/8 driver, of course, simplifying that aspect of things, but then one could attach that to either a real RX02 if you had one, with floppies to read/write, or to an off-board RX02 emulator as we've been discussing. Personally, I don't have even one RX8E per OMNIBUS machine, so alternatives are an interesting direction for me. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 27 15:02:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:02:19 -0700 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <200706271645.04284.gordon@gjcp.net> References: , <200706271645.04284.gordon@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <46825FDB.28447.F38154@cclist.sydex.com> The first "computer" that I got to see up close (rather than at a distance as in "that's our computer over there") was a tic-tac-toe machine that employed Stroger switches. It was mechanical enough to be fun to watch. Wasn't there a turn-of-the-century electromechanical gizmo built by a Frenchman to solve the three queens problem? I seem to recall that when it won, it played a phonograph recording of "?chec et mat". Can someone refresh my hazy memory? Would that qualify as a "computer"? Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 27 15:18:56 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:18:56 -0700 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 References: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4682C631.2EC22957@cs.ubc.ca> Just to give the 9830 another plug, a quick recap of what it was: - general-purpose computer with built-in high-level language - all-in-one package - easy to use out of the box - truly functional: it was sold to do, and did do, useful work - it was not a prototype or proof-of-concept machine. Yes, it was expensive; no, it did not see much use in the home; so it's outside the lineage of what we tend to think of as 'home computers', but it was very much a real, practical, representative indication of what was to come, years ahead of the others. I'm not that familiar with the market situation of the IBM 5100, but I'd hazard a guess there were more HP 9830s produced and sold (and actually used) than IBM 5100s. Did the 5100 have a market niche at all? A couple of comments on the display of the 9830: - the 32 character 5*7 dot-matrix LED display had large, very easy to read characters (1/2 to 3/4") and there were keys for horizontal scrolling through an 80 character (IIRC) line. - the printer was fast: it didn't take very long, for example, to get a full program listing (not like waiting for a teletype to clickety-clack across the page). It was a dot-matrix thermal printer with (IIRC) a full horizontal row print-head (printed an entire dot-row at once). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 27 15:19:56 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:19:56 -0700 Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. References: <200706271634.l5RGYqVT096889@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4682C66C.E4762258@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > How about early modems, anyone collect them ? > > No. Nobody does. > > The only folks that actively collect modems are the RTTY (radio > Teletype) guys, and those modems are pretty alien to what we computer > guys know as modems. > > I suppose I accumulate modems, simply because some I do not want scrapped. 205B? I have two old ones (I'm not including Hayes-and-after in this): - a Bunker-Ramo from 1967/8; discrete transistors and large, canned filters; electrical connection to tel network; about 19"*6"*10". - an acoustic modem built in to a (!) teak box, late 60s or early 70s I think, discrete transistor. Haven't had a chance to play with them or figure out specs, they're in the queue for reverse engineering at some time. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 15:30:43 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:30:43 -0400 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <46825FDB.28447.F38154@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706271645.04284.gordon@gjcp.net> <46825FDB.28447.F38154@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Can someone refresh my hazy memory? Would that qualify as a > "computer"? I would not consider it. I think you could do much the same with a small pile of 7400 combinatorial logic. I think there were a few makers of automatons that employed very simple feedback mechanisms for some minor amount of variation every time they are played. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 15:32:57 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:32:57 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <4682C631.2EC22957@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> <4682C631.2EC22957@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I'm not that familiar with the market situation of the IBM 5100, but I'd > hazard a guess there were more HP 9830s produced and sold (and actually used) > than IBM 5100s. Did the 5100 have a market niche at all? They could be used to talk to IBM midrange and mainframe systems at the time. I do not think there were any other ways to do that on a portable machine of any kind. My 5100 system did the books at a movie theatre in Chicago. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 27 15:43:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:43:54 -0700 Subject: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80) In-Reply-To: References: <0JKA00HNOWX82O86@vms042.mailsrvcs.net>, Message-ID: <4682699A.15039.11995A5@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jun 2007 at 16:02, Ethan Dicks wrote: > In amongst all the other recent PDP-8 discussions, I have to wonder > that if one was going to be spending $$$ on a 1 sq ft. PCB with edge > fingers and whatever line drivers, what would be a good choice of > peripheral options to stack on the same board. Why not a bunch of address decoders and latches and an MPU to allow one to emulate whatever device one wanted? Cheers, Chuck From kth at srv.net Wed Jun 27 15:45:24 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:45:24 -0600 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <20070626141606.M44457@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070626141606.M44457@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4682CC64.7060607@srv.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . Jif and Naval Jelly? > > White or wheat bread? From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jun 27 15:49:42 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:49:42 -0500 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? In-Reply-To: References: <200706251440.00873.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <4682CD66.5050402@jbrain.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> Has anyone got any recommendations for PCB CAD software on Linux? > > Xcircuit for schematics: > > http://opencircuitdesign.com/xcircuit/ > > PCB for layout: > > http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ > Do these two tools sync the schematic with the PCB and allow backchanges? I find that feature of Eagle very useful. Having watched the previous thread on PCB tooling, I saved all the links, but I currently use Eagle (on Windows and Linux), and I have no issues moving pads on the board. I have the free version. You can;t move parts off the limits of the board size (3x4 for the free version, as I recall), but you can move parts around the board. I tried the gEDA suite a while back, and I found it significantly harder to use than Eagle. I plan to give the other options previously described a try, but it's hard to beat the install base of Eagle. (I do intend to try the library converter mentioned in another thread) Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 27 15:55:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:55:41 -0700 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: References: , <46825FDB.28447.F38154@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46826C5D.15160.1245E23@cclist.sydex.com> I found the chess-playing device and discovered, as usual, that I had a few dropped bits in my wetware. "El Ajedrecista" by Leonardo Torres y Quevedo, 1912, exhibited at the 1914 Paris World's Fair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ajedrecista Cheers, Chuck From pechter at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 15:55:38 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:55:38 -0400 Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. In-Reply-To: <4682C66C.E4762258@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200706271634.l5RGYqVT096889@keith.ezwind.net> <4682C66C.E4762258@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 6/27/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > How about early modems, anyone collect them ? > > > > No. Nobody does. > > > > The only folks that actively collect modems are the RTTY (radio > > Teletype) guys, and those modems are pretty alien to what we computer > > guys know as modems. > > > > I suppose I accumulate modems, simply because some I do not want > scrapped. 205B? > > I have two old ones (I'm not including Hayes-and-after in this): > - a Bunker-Ramo from 1967/8; discrete transistors and large, canned > filters; > electrical connection to tel network; about 19"*6"*10". > - an acoustic modem built in to a (!) teak box, late 60s or early 70s I > think, discrete transistor. > > Haven't had a chance to play with them or figure out specs, they're in the > queue for reverse engineering at some time. > I've still got a couple of Telebit's... They're not as old as my old Dataset 212A... But they've got a 68k chip... and a hell of a lot of firmware. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Jun 27 16:04:49 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:04:49 -0400 Subject: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4682D0F1.2010000@nktelco.net> Richard wrote: > In article <468295F6.5050801 at nktelco.net>, > C H Dickman writes: > > >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> >>> and expansion options. An RX01/RX02-attached device, at least, will >>> work with OMNIBUS machines as well as the VT78 and DECmate I - overall >>> not a bad range to cover. >>> >> I did that using a PC as the external storage and a PC parallel port as >> the interface. Lets me run my PDP-8/e and PDP-11/40. DECtape is cool, >> but a little slow. >> > > Do you have software/interface schematics? I have a DECmate I and no > RX0[12] drives. > http://www.chd.dyndns.org/rx02/ From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jun 27 16:19:27 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:19:27 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com><728379.47444.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <5f7d1b0e0706271141n3a2b5a9ei2a0184a641955e29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001e01c7b900$d821f0b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I have a beastly 80386 based Banyan VNS100 server that, I'm >pretty sure, only runs VINES.... >....serial terminal connections for direct I/O, I'm pretty sure >it won't want to run DOS. I can't get at my copy right now, but it might be worth investigating DR's "Concurrent" DOS? ISTR running it on a '386, with a multi-port serial card, sometime in the early-mid 90's....it worked pretty well from what I remember. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jun 27 16:28:39 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:28:39 +0100 Subject: nice but OT (HP/Apollo workstation) References: <909297.46543.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com><4681883C.1070809@yahoo.co.uk><001001c7b86e$50d7ecf0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <003b01c7b902$21004f10$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >>....I though they'd dropped that after the 400 series? > > No. Yeah, I've just had a rummage around "hpmuseum.net". It seems the "HP-Apollo" name was used up until the end of the 700 series, in fact the 712 (the last of the 700 series) was the first machine to be branded "HP" alone. Learn summat new every day. :-) > http://www.debian.org/ports/hppa/ > > I've installed it on C110 and possibly HP "Apollo 715" systems >a few years ago... Thanks for the info. I did a reasonable amount of "googling" when I picked up this 712, but didn't find that port. Only OpenBSD and NetBSD appeared to have PA-RISC ports. I don't currently have any intention of switching away from HP-UX, but it's nice to have the option.... TTFN - Pete. From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jun 27 16:35:16 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:35:16 +0100 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f806cd70706271435n5b0dded6i1c183aa79e57f796@mail.gmail.com> On 27/06/07, JP Hindin wrote: > So, anyone out there have one of these in their... basement? Almost.. If anybody in the UK wants one, and fancies talking to my ex-wife (I don't) there may be a complete BT viceroy system still installed on the wal of the celler in the house she'll be in for a couple more weeks only... it was a fully loaded 8+32.. there's probably still an old minimaster 2+8 there too.. console looks like this one: http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/images/viceroy_console.jpg (I've not seen eithre for ~9 years, but can't see hre having moved them..) From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Jun 27 17:23:32 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:23:32 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> This thread has been a real disappointment. Almost all of the responses have been about computers using standard microprocessors - off the shelf components. Yes a few had non-vanilla flavored OS's, or idiotic I/O schemes. A few were even painted different colors from PC Beige. But nobody got into the really weird internals that have made the industry so fascinating. Go back to the real early days, like the Atlas, that let you build your instruction set from scratch using micro-code. Nobody seemed to remember that most of the late 50's and early 60's used 40 bits as a standard. What about the MicroData machines with a build your own instructions on the fly? And then there were the ultra-strange like the G-15 - 29 bit word size, all instructions were modified moves through arithmetic logic or I/O devices. The I/O devices were actually part of the internal logic - no channels. Burroughs had some fascinating ideas on virtual memory in the 5500 series. Seymour Cray lived weird and unusual in most of his designs. Several people have developed machines to run high level languages in native mode: ADA at Rational, APL on the Star 100, LISP, COBOL, etc. There's not much unusual about putting some glue logic around a $3 micro chip. We've all done it. How about the truly weird machines? Doesn't anyone remember when logic didn't come in million transistor packages? Come on people: there were computers long before there were microcomputers. And many of them were wonderfully different and creative. Billy From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jun 27 17:47:43 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:47:43 +0100 Subject: What didn't happen in the future References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org><200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com><006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game><002d01c7b873$56415320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <2f806cd70706270004n557123d2nbdab384293f54103@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004401c7b90d$2d6b2b20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Almost on topic(only a year to go), I've somewhere still got >my old Diamond Rio PMP 300 mp3 player.... LOL, actually I collect "classic" MP3 players as well as computers.... ;-) I don't think I have a 300, I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure I have the "Rio One", which looks very similar to the 300 (but is a different colour). I also have a 500, which is pretty nice. I did also have a "Riot", it's sound quality was quite awesome, but in the end it was just too big an unwieldy. I sold it after 9 months and bought a "Karma", which was great until the Hitachi "Deathstar", well, "Deathstarred".... :-( >....Came with a massive 32MB internal memory (but could take >an additional 32MB Smartmedia card but I never had one).... I've had real problems getting my 500 to recognise SmartMedia cards, seems rather picky. > I could only get about 4 songs on it at a barely acceptable >encoding rate of 128Kbs.... The trick I use is to encode at 128Kbps VBR, rather than the usual default of CBR. You get noticably better sound quality and, often, slightly smaller files. I understand that encoding to "Joint Stereo" rather than the usual "Stereo" can also help a little with file sizes, but I've not experimented with that yet. >....the software defaulted to 96Kbs, ISTR, which was dire. Quite. My first MP3 player was a 10GB jukebox, quite why the supplied ripping software defaulted to 96Kbps I'm yet to understand...? >....(and I just picked up a little 1GB player for ?15 [$30].. That wasn't from Argos was it? LOL. It's amazing how cheap these things are getting nowadays, about 2 years ago 512MB players were commonly selling for between ?130 and ?160 (or around ?200 on the "high-street"). I've seen 4GB players on eBay recently for under ?20! Or if you want to spend a bit more, .MP4 players (with colour screen) for under ?30.... TTFN - Pete. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 27 17:51:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:51:17 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:23:32 -0700. <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: In article <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2 at wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, "Billy Pettit" writes: > This thread has been a real disappointment. [...] > have developed machines to run high level languages in native mode: ADA = > at > Rational, APL on the Star 100, LISP, COBOL, etc. I've got a few Eve machines, descendents of the Lilith, that execute Modula-2 in some form of microcode. I haven't powered them up though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 27 18:05:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:05:47 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <46828ADB.31754.19B792B@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jun 2007 at 15:23, Billy Pettit wrote: > This thread has been a real disappointment. Almost all of the responses > have been about computers using standard microprocessors - off the shelf > components. Yes a few had non-vanilla flavored OS's, or idiotic I/O > schemes. A few were even painted different colors from PC Beige. Quite honestly, I didn't know what the time frame of the original question was--I did mention the Univac SS-80, however--and I did make reference to strange designs of the 50s. But "computer" isn't very specific. How about the hybrid computers of the 60s? How about the "mostly diodes and not a lot of transistor" machines like the PB250? Some parameters for the original question might be helpful. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 27 18:27:44 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:27:44 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46828ADB.31754.19B792B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <46828ADB.31754.19B792B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4682F270.3050508@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > But "computer" isn't very specific. How about the hybrid computers > of the 60s? How about the "mostly diodes and not a lot of > transistor" machines like the PB250? > Some parameters for the original question might be helpful. And what out there do we (the public) have running with mostly complete DOC's and Software? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 27 17:52:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:52:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <467708.63673.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jun 26, 7 03:46:49 pm Message-ID: > > > > Err, I've got a PDP8/e + TU56 DECtape + PC04 > > paper > > > > tape on my desk... > > > > > > An 8/e? Meant to be rackmounted I would think. > > You > > > > That's the one... I didn't have a spare rack at the > > time, so it ended up > > on my desk > > Are your capacitors oozing out all over the place? You mean the motor run capacitors in the TU56? Not yet. I guess that'll be a joy for the future :-) [...] > > What is the definition of 'off the shelf'? I don't > > take it literally to > > mean you could necessarily go into a shop and take > > one 'off the shelf'. > > To me, if the machine came ready-to-use in a > > standard configuration, > > that's ;off the shelf' even if it was only available > > by mail order. > > Me too, but if you want to get technical, off the > shelf should be taken literally (w/argument). I don't As a silly example, I would say my lathe was an off-the-shelf model, in that it's one of the standard configurations. But I doubt it's ever been on a real shelf (it would have to be a darn strong shelf :-)) > think it's relevant if you could walk out w/it or have > it come in the mail. Agreed. > > I really don't see this love of colour or > > graphics.... > > So you're not an art lover of any sort either? Actually, not really. I find beauty in fine engineering, electrical and mechanical. And if I did care to look at a painting, I would not be satisfied with seeing it on a computer display. I have never seen a computer display with sufficient resolution or colour performance for this sort of thing -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 27 18:21:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:21:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 27, 7 11:34:34 am Message-ID: > >I'd say that if it can't play games (graphical or at least a multi-line > >text display), then it's not what I'd call a *home* computer. > > Why do you need a multiline display to play games? _I_ agree with you. Sticking with HP for the moment, they sold Games Pacs and Games Solution books for many of their _calculators_, including the HP67, which has a 1-line numerical display. Odd thing about me is that I actually prefer that sort of game to the more modern ones. About 12 years ago some friends instroduced me to 'Doom'. I played it for about 10 minutes and decided it really wasn't the sort of thing I enjoyerd. But I've playes some of the HP67 games for hours. [Amazingly there was even a 'Grpahics Solution Book' for the HP75, a handheld computer with a 1-line alphanumeric display with no dot addressing at all (the hardware didn't allow it, there as a character generator in one of the chips). Said book contained programs for bar charts, pie charts, etc. Mind you, it did need an HP7470 Opt 003 (HPIL) plotter...] > > The only reason I feel Tony's HP can't be classified as a microcomputer is > because I was taught that a microcomputer utilized a microprocessor, and I > was taught that the definition of a microprocessor is a processing solution > contained entirely on one chip. Anything larger (more than one chip) and > it's a mini. As that definition has always seemed logical to me, I've > always stuck with it. I would agree, and I made that comment in my first post in this thread. I said something like 'It's stretching the defintion of micro somewhat...' The processor in the 9830 (and indeed in all the 98x0 machines) is on 4 PCBs, each containing around 20 chips (mostly TTL, but there are 9 programmed PROMs in there too, 7 for the mcirocode and 2 for th ALU, which is implemented as a look-up table) There are also bits of the CPU on other boards, in particular the M (memory address) register, the T (memory data) register, and the gating around them. So perhaps 100 chips would be a fairer count for this processor. It's bit-serial, 16 bits wide (if you see what I mean). There are 2 accumulators (A and B), a program counter P, the current instruction register (Q), I/O register, extension register (E) and the M and T registers I've already mentioned. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 27 17:31:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:31:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 26, 7 04:51:07 pm Message-ID: > On 6/26/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > The last of the PS/2's had some strange designs. > > I like that mechanical linkage running from the front to a physical switch > > at the rear. Now THAT had style. > > The Amiga 3000 had that sort of thing, too... a latching pushbutton > mounted right on the PSU, activated by a pushrod and a button on the > front of the machine. I think at the time, I heard it was to satisfy Some of the HP disk and tape 'shoeboxes' (9133J, 9142, etc) did something similar. There's an SMPSU board that runs the whole deptho of the case, with the mains input connector soldered to it (when the PSU is in place, this lines up with a hole in the case). The on-off switch is also near the back of the PCB with a plastic pushrod linking it to the button on the front. I've also seen stuff where noise could be a problem (audio and test gear) which has the switch at the back, near the mains input connector and PSU input circuitry, and a pushrod to the front. Here, I ususpect the aim was to cut down loaise pickup, not necessrily to meet safety requirements. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 27 17:43:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:43:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0706261457j108647fcu17bc5d653ebbf68b@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Jun 26, 7 10:57:32 pm Message-ID: [HP9830] > OK, point taken, but really, I think you're sort of emphasizing the > difference and making my point for me. This wasn't a PC, it was an I'll grant it wasn't really a 'home computer', but IMHO it was a 'personal computer'. It was designed to be operated by one person (it didn't need a 'computer department') who didn't have to have any specific computer knowlefge. > expensive tool for professionals and scientists. It was a table-top > single-user mini, in a way: expensive on its own and little use > without various peripherals to give it useful I/O. Enough was built-in (keyboard, display, tape drive) to do useful work. You didn't _need_ the peripherals. Remeber that at the time (35 years ago), the alternative was likely to be: Punch a deck of cards with your program and data ; submit it to your company's computer department ; Get a printout back a couple of days later. Compared to that, the 9830, even with its one-line display, was a lot more 'personal' and a lot easier to use. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 27 18:41:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:41:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <4682C631.2EC22957@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 27, 7 01:18:56 pm Message-ID: > A couple of comments on the display of the 9830: > - the 32 character 5*7 dot-matrix LED display had large, very easy to read > characters (1/2 to 3/4") and there were keys for horizontal scrolling > through an 80 character (IIRC) line. I thought (without checking) it was a 96 chracter line, but I could easily be wrong on this. > - the printer was fast: it didn't take very long, for example, to get a full > program listing (not like waiting for a teletype to clickety-clack across the > page). It was a dot-matrix thermal printer with (IIRC) a full horizontal row > print-head (printed an entire dot-row at once). Yes. the print head is the full width of the machine and doesn't move. The unit is mechanically very simple, a platten roller directly driven by the drive motor, and a couple of deed rollers to get the paper to the platten (and amazingly this is one autoloading printer that does work). I think, again without checking, that due to the design of the electronics, this unit prints each charcter one dot at a time. In other words, for a fiven row of dots on the paper, it prints the leftmost dot of each charater (all 80 characters at once), then the nect dot from the left, and so on. FWIW, thermal fac paper works fine in the 9866. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 27 18:31:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:31:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <200706271634.l5RGYqVT096889@keith.ezwind.net> from "Bob Bradlee" at Jun 27, 7 12:34:44 pm Message-ID: > How about early modems, anyone collect them ? I've got a few, it depends on what you mean by 'early' I have a couple of the old GPO [1] Modem 2B units; Large metal cases (about 15" square by 6" high) contiaining plug-in PCBs. Modulator and demodualator are discrete transsitors, the control circutry is mostly relays. [1] As in most other conntries, at that time (late 1960's, early 1978's) you had to rent the mdoem from the telephone company, which in the UK was the Post Office (GPO). Some of these modems were actually made by Plessey. A little more recent is the GPO Modem 13, which is a plinth screwed to the bottom of a normal telephone (a type 746 for the UK phone enthusiasts). Said phone has a couple of buttons added to select between voice and data. The plinth contains one PCB with metal-can ICs (maybe custom) and pot core inductors on it. Of course I have a number of 1970's accoustic couplers..... One oddity is the 'barrier box' At one time you had to fit this thing in the RS232 line betwwen your terminal and the (rented) modem. It contained a 50mA (IIRC) fuse in series wtih each signal line and a pair of inverse series zenrs from each line to protective ground (on the modem side of the fuse). The idea was that if something failed in your terminal and an excessive voltage appearsed on the RS232 interface, the fuse would blow before any damage was done to the modem.yes, I have one _somewhere_ I am looking for an old ACU (Automatic Calling Unit) with an RS336 (or is it RS366) interface. I am not planning on using it on a public telephone network, so I don't care about approvals or anything like that. I've never seen one for sale though.... -tony From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jun 27 18:53:34 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:53:34 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 References: Message-ID: <009d01c7b916$608c1240$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > The only reason I feel Tony's HP can't be classified as a >microcomputer is because I was taught that a microcomputer >utilized a microprocessor, and I was taught that the definition >of a microprocessor is a processing solution contained entirely >on one chip. Anything larger (more than one chip) and it's a mini.... That's a bit too inflexible a definition. Just off the top of my head, by that logic, the i8080 is a minicomputer....which it clearly is not. Likewise, would you consider a processor made from bit-slice devices to be a mini? TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jun 27 18:55:30 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:55:30 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 References: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org><5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> <4affc5e0706270858m76008252n20b7913ce89d4f42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a201c7b916$a4b394c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > This way, I'd include the PET, TRS-80, Apple ][, Sinclairs.... Don't forget the SOL-20 (1977), like a number of machines available here in the UK it was available in kit form or ready built. TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Wed Jun 27 19:05:11 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 01:05:11 +0100 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? References: Message-ID: <00c701c7b917$ff0d0c20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > How about early modems, anyone collect them? Not exactly early, but at one time I did collect various Hayes SmartModems and assorted other "interesting" modems....still have them, but lost interest in them LONG ago. TTFN - Pete. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jun 27 20:07:28 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:07:28 -0400 Subject: PDP/8E CPU Boards In-Reply-To: <54ef01c7b8b5$2a91fb70$020a0a0a@cj2a> References: <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca> <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com><200706261909.PAA23298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1182895907.8859.11.camel@elric> <54ef01c7b8b5$2a91fb70$020a0a0a@cj2a> Message-ID: <468309D0.3060500@hawkmountain.net> Todd Paisley wrote: > I am a proud new owner of a PDP-8/E. Well, more like the proud new owner of > a PDP-8/E chassis with a few boards! I am looking for the M8300 and M8310 > CPU boards and memory for it. Does anyone have any of these laying around? > Does anyone know of anyone who might make (or have a design) for a board > using semiconductor memory? Thanks! > > Todd Paisley > > Did you happen to get this off ebay ? Off an auction seller that did not document hardly anything about the configuration of the machine or include photos of the inside ? A seller kept relisting one over and over again, using another account (whypaymore$) to shill it... and nobody outbid the shill bidder. I gave up, as shipping weight seemed off and the entire guts could have been missing, necessitating spending as much as the difference in getting a complete unit. If you did score it from him, it would be good to know what you got. I forget the sellers id.... -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jun 27 20:09:05 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:09:05 -0400 Subject: PDP/8E CPU Boards In-Reply-To: <54ef01c7b8b5$2a91fb70$020a0a0a@cj2a> References: <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca> <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com><200706261909.PAA23298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1182895907.8859.11.camel@elric> <54ef01c7b8b5$2a91fb70$020a0a0a@cj2a> Message-ID: <46830A31.80605@hawkmountain.net> Todd Paisley wrote: > I am a proud new owner of a PDP-8/E. Well, more like the proud new owner of > a PDP-8/E chassis with a few boards! I am looking for the M8300 and M8310 > CPU boards and memory for it. Does anyone have any of these laying around? > Does anyone know of anyone who might make (or have a design) for a board > using semiconductor memory? Thanks! > > Todd Paisley > > eh... nope... I just answered my own question... you have an 8/e... that seller was auctioning off an 8/m. Anybody have an 8i/e/f/m/a in the northeast they want to sell... working, as is, or needs fixing... for an affordable price ? -- Curt From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 27 20:15:41 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:15:41 -0500 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <004401c7b90d$2d6b2b20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org><200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com><006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game><002d01c7b873$56415320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <2f806cd70706270004n557123d2nbdab384293f54103@mail.gmail.com> <004401c7b90d$2d6b2b20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46830BBD.2060305@oldskool.org> Ensor wrote: > > I could only get about 4 songs on it at a barely acceptable > >encoding rate of 128Kbs.... > > The trick I use is to encode at 128Kbps VBR, rather than the usual > default of CBR. You get noticably better sound quality and, often, > slightly smaller files. The better trick is to use an encoder that offers a quality setting as well as a bitrate setting. LAME is one such encoder; you can specify a "quality" level anywhere from 1 to 9 and the file sizes will vary according to how much information is retained. (Of course, LAME also supports CBR and VBR bitrate settings too) Me personally, I use LAME with "--preset standard", as it uses just enough bits for transparent (to my ears) quality. No need to burn the full 320 if you don't have to... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 27 20:17:32 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:17:32 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <4682A7FC.7090304@yahoo.co.uk> References: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com>, <728379.47444.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> <46814956.11631.273E0C0@cclist.sydex.com> <4682A7FC.7090304@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46830C2C.3060806@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: >> Not possible, unless you mean by "100% compatible", compatible on a >> BIOS level. > > It's debatable whether the IBM PC was ever even compatible with itself, > never mind what the clone lot were doing :-) Could you elaborate? I've never found a single program that will work on, say, my 5150 but not my 5155 or 5160... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 27 20:33:38 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:33:38 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <001b01c7b924$5b14cec0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Billy wrote.... > What about the MicroData machines with a build your own > instructions on the fly? SortofKindaNotReally MicroData Reality machines were firmware implementations of Pick (Reality), not software implementations. As a result, you couldn't actually microprogram the thing as an end user (normally). There *WAS* an EEPROM board that would replace the firmware board, but I don't believe that was typically released to the field. I used to have two M1600's (the early ones with the wood panels). One of them did have the EEPROM microcode option but I do know that particular unit was sent out from microdata "under the table". I had let these two machines slip through my fingers many years ago, long before I got into collecting. BUT - on the bright side - I found out a year or so ago that those two machines actually did wind up in the hands of another collector who is known to another listmember! I now have an M1600 that is the later metal panel variety, waiting to be restored. Even on the software implementations (which the microdata's weren't), you could create new missionary instructions from native instructions by playing some games in the 5-pass assembly process. However, this wouldn't technically be considered microprogramming as the "native" instructions would be just whatever the underlying cpu was (68000, PDP11, RS6000, x86, etc.). So you could create new virtual instructions, but still not really microprogramming. Jay From James at jdfogg.com Wed Jun 27 20:39:35 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:39:35 -0400 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256E8E@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Are there people out there, on the list or otherwise, that > are actively collecting these machines? Admittedly, unlike a > PDP8 you can use (as Dave McGuire does) on a daily basis, a > twelve ton NEAX isn't too 'dramatic' as an attention piece. > But, according to my little book here, they tend to be > multiprocessor, reel-to-reel storage (as they 'reboot' so > infrequently they need a very long-lasting storage medium), > all sorts of good stuff. > And with an average "Mean time between failure of 1 failure > in 40 years"... boy, that just speaks for it. > > So, anyone out there have one of these in their... basement? I'm into telephony, but not on the CO-sized equipment. I've had many PBX's in my houses over the years. Everything from an AT&T 1A2 system (relay based) to an AT&T System 75. Along the way I've had AT&T, Siemens, Nortel, Lucent, Iwatsu, Mitel, NEC and others. At this point I'm using a 32 line, 128 station Iwatsu ZTD. I have many digital (Key) phones for it, operator/programmer consoles, doorphones, analog and digital (Key) station cards, ringer supplies, relay boards and lots of other neet options for them. And I have the all-important documentation to make it run. It's one of these. http://shorterlink.org/2642 (ebay link) The only old CO equipment I know of in private hands is a guy in Pennsylvania that runs a boys camp on a Strowger (relay CO). From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 27 20:50:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:50:56 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46830C2C.3060806@oldskool.org> References: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com>, <4682A7FC.7090304@yahoo.co.uk>, <46830C2C.3060806@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4682B190.15785.232A8B6@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jun 2007 at 20:17, Jim Leonard wrote: > Could you elaborate? I've never found a single program that will work > on, say, my 5150 but not my 5155 or 5160... Including ROM BASIC that writes and reads cassette tapes? Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 27 21:35:15 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:35:15 -0700 Subject: What didn't happen in the future In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70706270004n557123d2nbdab384293f54103@mail.gmail.com> References: <46805F18.7060206@bitsavers.org> <200706260101.l5Q11qkT002043@onyx.spiritone.com> <006101c7b7b2$1f86ad10$0b01a8c0@game> <002d01c7b873$56415320$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <2f806cd70706270004n557123d2nbdab384293f54103@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:04 AM +0100 6/27/07, Rob wrote: >Almost on topic(only a year to go), I've somewhere still got my old >Diamond Rio PMP 300 mp3 player - One of the first available; certainly >around here. Came with a massive 32MB internal memory (but could take >an additional 32MB Smartmedia card but I never had one). Cost me best >part of ?100 new. ($200). I pretty much stopped using it when I >upgraded the Windows PC as the drivers were Win95 only - parallel port >interface - and didn't work under NT. Actually I'm not sure what the stance is on peripherals, but if it was a computer it likely would be fully on topic. IIRC, it was the first commercially available MP3 player, at least it was the first widely available one. I bought one new as well, though I paid $300 and got it when it first came out. I was able to get almost a half hour of music on it. Minidisc's made more sense at the time. In fact I finally gave up on Minidiscs at work this last Christmas when I received a iPod from my Mom. I actually had my Rio working with WinXP at one point, and I believe I also had it working with Linux. While it can handle very low bitrate audio (I have some spoken word MP3's that cram 30 minutes of audio into about 3Mb), it seems to have a hard limit of two hours audio. I still have the original box, and should have everything that goes with it. My intention is that one day it will be a museum exhibit along with a lot of my other computer equipment, that is the only thing it has ever been good for. Personally I wish I'd never wasted the $300 on it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 27 21:38:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:38:14 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <4682B190.15785.232A8B6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com>, <4682A7FC.7090304@yahoo.co.uk>, <46830C2C.3060806@oldskool.org> <4682B190.15785.232A8B6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46831F16.9070805@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Jun 2007 at 20:17, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Could you elaborate? I've never found a single program that will work >> on, say, my 5150 but not my 5155 or 5160... > > Including ROM BASIC that writes and reads cassette tapes? You're being pedantic :-) I've never come across an IBM PC program on cassette tape, and I'm betting 99% of the list hasn't either :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 27 21:57:08 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46831F16.9070805@oldskool.org> References: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com>, <4682A7FC.7090304@yahoo.co.uk>, <46830C2C.3060806@oldskool.org> <4682B190.15785.232A8B6@cclist.sydex.com> <46831F16.9070805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070627195020.B19010@shell.lmi.net> > > Including ROM BASIC that writes and reads cassette tapes? On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > You're being pedantic :-) I've never come across an IBM PC program on > cassette tape, and I'm betting 99% of the list hasn't either :) The IBM Diagnostics, and a few others were available on cassette. Right before the XT came out, there was an outfit peddling a crude network using the cassette port! It disappeared immediately when the XT came out. There were a very few programs that relied on specific addresses in the BASIC ROMs! But, admittedly, th incompataibilities between the 5150 and 5160 were negligible. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paisley at erols.com Wed Jun 27 22:19:28 2007 From: paisley at erols.com (Todd Paisley) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:19:28 -0400 Subject: PDP/8E CPU Boards References: <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca> <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com><200706261909.PAA23298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1182895907.8859.11.camel@elric><54ef01c7b8b5$2a91fb70$020a0a0a@cj2a> <46830A31.80605@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <588401c7b933$26012b70$020a0a0a@cj2a> > > I am a proud new owner of a PDP-8/E. Well, more like the proud new owner of > > a PDP-8/E chassis with a few boards! I am looking for the M8300 and M8310 > > CPU boards and memory for it. Does anyone have any of these laying around? > > Does anyone know of anyone who might make (or have a design) for a board > > using semiconductor memory? Thanks! > > > > Todd Paisley > > > > > eh... nope... I just answered my own question... you have an 8/e... that > seller was > auctioning off an 8/m. Hi Curt. I did get it off of ebay. I did remember you posting on this last month. It was from a different person though. I was tempted to bid on the 8/M but decided not too. Todd Paisley From onymouse at garlic.com Wed Jun 27 09:16:51 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 07:16:51 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46827153.3040007@garlic.com> So what removes the harder-than-epoxy dried out duct tape adhesive easily? The only thing I know of is soaking in hot TCTFE which has been outlawed since the patent expired. I've tried TFE, methanol, ethanol, IPA, MEK, acetone, xylene, turpentine, and various amide compounds which also remove acrylic and ABS (and skin) very well. But I want to just remove the adhesive, not everything else but. == jd Drink Canada Dry! You might not succeed, but it *is* fun trying eh! From onymouse at garlic.com Wed Jun 27 09:07:29 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 07:07:29 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <763103.5874.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <763103.5874.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46826F21.605@garlic.com> Chris M wrote: > --- Chris M wrote: > >> Problem w/WD-40 and other stuff is that it will >> dillute the true lubricant, and wherever metal is >> coming in contact w/metal, rapid wear will ensue. >> Best >> to keep that stuff away from machinery or any other >> critical moving parts. Paint thinner would work >> better >> at releasing junk, and at least it evaporates (much >> more quickly). > > As an addendum, I do use Liquid Wrench (or WD-40, or > the generic Walmart variety) and a Scotch-Brite (which > comes in grades) for rush removal, then usually rinse > off w/thinner. Keep in mind that a SB supposedly has > imbedded metal particles, so it essentially DOES > remove metal. I'm not joking, and in some instances > this is critical (high tolerance machine parts, > watchmaking equipment, etc.). You may ask how does > such stuff get rusty to begin with, but take for > instance a 100 year old lathe w/hand scraping marks > (indicative of a VERY accurate finish) in areas. The > application of a SB and light oil, and...bye bye. > Sometimes it's better to start out with real fine > steel wool or even a paper towel :) > > ScotchBrite does not contain metals. It does have some kind of ceramic or ceramic-like material, though. If it had metals it would never find use in, say, cleaning equipment where metal is a destructive contaminant. It is used to clean carbon/graphite, silicic (aka fused silica or "quartz"), alumina and beryllia parts which must not have any metal contamination, etc. It still works in sulfuric, which would quickly dissolve any metals in it (save for a few very expensive ones). Dropped a whole pad in sulfuric peroxide once or twice and nothing happened--nothing different, that is. Drop metal in it and the stuff boils even more insanely. There's something like 8 grades, ranging from ultra fine to extremely coarse. I've used the common red, 7447 type (IIRC), the gray 7446(?) and the baby blue super fine stuff. The baby blue stuff is so fine that it doesn't seem to work even as a polish. Doesn't scratch VCR fitting glands--all the other grades do. It is used on utra-super-high-precision tools and machinery. I haven't used the gray stuff in a long time; don't remember how it does relative to the common red stuff. == jd Lowery's Law: If it jams -- force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 22:53:49 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:53:49 -0500 Subject: PDP/8E CPU Boards In-Reply-To: <588401c7b933$26012b70$020a0a0a@cj2a> References: <46814A01.5010508@jetnet.ab.ca> <46814F38.1070906@gmail.com> <200706261909.PAA23298@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1182895907.8859.11.camel@elric> <54ef01c7b8b5$2a91fb70$020a0a0a@cj2a> <46830A31.80605@hawkmountain.net> <588401c7b933$26012b70$020a0a0a@cj2a> Message-ID: <624966d60706272053u267e7ddav78ef07d92ca340c2@mail.gmail.com> I have a few extra E and A boxes and most of the boards for them. Paul On 6/27/07, Todd Paisley wrote: > > > > I am a proud new owner of a PDP-8/E. Well, more like the proud new > owner of > > > a PDP-8/E chassis with a few boards! I am looking for the M8300 and > M8310 > > > CPU boards and memory for it. Does anyone have any of these laying > around? > > > Does anyone know of anyone who might make (or have a design) for a > board > > > using semiconductor memory? Thanks! > > > > > > Todd Paisley > > > > > > > > eh... nope... I just answered my own question... you have an 8/e... that > > seller was > > auctioning off an 8/m. > > Hi Curt. I did get it off of ebay. I did remember you posting on this > last > month. It was from a different person though. I was tempted to bid on > the > 8/M but decided not too. > > Todd Paisley > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 27 23:20:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:20:38 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46831F16.9070805@oldskool.org> References: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com>, <4682B190.15785.232A8B6@cclist.sydex.com>, <46831F16.9070805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4682D4A6.13024.2BBB738@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jun 2007 at 21:38, Jim Leonard wrote: > You're being pedantic :-) I've never come across an IBM PC program on > cassette tape, and I'm betting 99% of the list hasn't either :) Sure, but you asked! :) There were some neat programs that used the casette port relay for on- off control of devices. I seem to recall a method for cross- connecting the audio lines on two 5150s for PC-to-PC data transfer. I did record a data tape on a 5150--once. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 27 23:26:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:26:12 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <46827153.3040007@garlic.com> References: , <46827153.3040007@garlic.com> Message-ID: <4682D5F4.31460.2C0CE4D@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jun 2007 at 7:16, jd wrote: > So what removes the harder-than-epoxy dried out duct tape adhesive easily? Have you tried using a steam cleaner? I've heard that it works better than any solvent, but have no direct experience. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 27 23:29:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:29:55 -0700 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <00c701c7b917$ff0d0c20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: , <00c701c7b917$ff0d0c20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <4682D6D3.24666.2C434C6@cclist.sydex.com> > How about early modems, anyone collect them? I used to have a pile of Racal-Vadic 1200/2000(?) baud modems, but the need to communicate in Racal protocol sort of disappeared and I junked the modems and kept the power supplies. I still have a stack of USR Couriers of various flavors that I haven't the slightest use for. They do have 80C188s and some nice SRAM and EPROMs worth scavenging, I guess. Cheers, chuck From pspan at amerytel.net Wed Jun 27 23:42:25 2007 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil Spanner) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:42:25 -0500 Subject: Old phone swittches Message-ID: <000701c7b93e$b97e94e0$6714a8c0@home> Well, I can assure you that I do not have deep pockets, but I have 3,000 square feet of telephone switching equipment. Two main manufacturer's TRW Vidar and Stromberg Carlson DCO switches. I have been repairing these swithes for 25 years. The interesting thing about the DCO to this list is it was based on the DEC processors, 11/34 and 11//75. The DCO still incorporates the DEC Alpha CPU's, and at one time there were 1500 switches installed in the US. I know of 10 operating companies, including national carriers that are still using them. To the best of my knowedge, there is only one woking Vidar switch still operating in the US. With gov regs and technology pushing towards VoIP all of the companies will soon have the "suitcase" sized switches. Oh, and as you might guess, the MTBF is not engineered in years anymore, it is based on product life cycle. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 27 23:51:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:51:25 -0600 Subject: Old phone swittches In-Reply-To: <000701c7b93e$b97e94e0$6714a8c0@home> References: <000701c7b93e$b97e94e0$6714a8c0@home> Message-ID: <46833E4D.8090006@jetnet.ab.ca> Phil Spanner wrote: > Well, I can assure you that I do not have deep pockets, > but I have 3,000 square feet of telephone switching equipment. > With gov regs and technology pushing towards VoIP all of the companies > will soon have the "suitcase" sized switches. > Oh, and as you might guess, the MTBF is not engineered in years anymore, > it is based on product life cycle. So that sounds like crappy phone service to me upcoming in the future. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 00:00:10 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 01:00:10 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 6/27/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > >I'd say that if it can't play games (graphical or at least a multi-line > > >text display), then it's not what I'd call a *home* computer. > > > > Why do you need a multiline display to play games? > > _I_ agree with you. I don't agree at the fundamental level, but I do make the assertion that either a paper trail or a 2-dimensional textual display provides for a much, much larger variety of games. > Odd thing about me is that I actually prefer that sort of game to the > more modern ones. About 12 years ago some friends instroduced me to > 'Doom'. I played it for about 10 minutes and decided it really wasn't the > sort of thing I enjoyerd. But I've playes some of the HP67 games for hours. I have played plenty of Doom, but I have also played uncountable hours of computer games in a 40x25 or 80x24 text window that are entirely unlike Doom. Graphics are not a requirement for games, just as multiple lines of text are not a requirement for games, but each level of display sophistication encapsulates the varieties under it, and extend the possibilities dramatically. Contrast Lunar Lander on a calculator, or on a TTY, or on a PET display, or on a vector display (Atari's arcade machine from the 1970s)... essentially, it's the same game - a simulation of landing a spacecraft under 0.167g with limited fuel and potentially limited landing zone opportunities. The only real difference is the extent to which the machine can reproduce aspects of the view or at least a representation of the controls. In all examples, you are queried, either by typing in thrust values, or by pulling a lever that translates to thrust values, then after a calculation phase, the game re-presents the environment, either numerically or graphically. For all that the premise and potentially the calculation engine are essentially the same, they are all different games. -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 27 17:47:21 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:47:21 -0400 Subject: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80) Message-ID: <0JKB00HCJGKW2JC7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys,was Re: The late, great TRS-80) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:02:14 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 6/27/07, Allison wrote: >> Using a Tu58 on an -8 is not a goot match and there are lots of gyrations. > >Agreed. > >> >If all PDP-8s had a spare serial port, it might make sense to have a >> >serially-attached modern mass storage peripheral. >> >> Adding a second serial is trivial as there were many differnt serial >> cards available. To make a TTY card RS232/432 passable is also not hard. > >It's trivial from the OMNIBUS days onward to add another serial port. >Not so trivial for a Straight-8, an -8/S, an -8/L or -8/i. One may >argue that machines that old don't matter so much, but I do happen to >have a BM08 on one --8/L (total of 12K) and would like to be able to >bring up OS/8 on it someday. I'd also like to expand my -8/i to have >8K of core (and perhaps a full 32K eventually) and bring OS/8 up on >that as well. If you have a parallel port or even an interface to read/write one bit with an IOT (less parts than parallelport or tty interface) there are possible interfaces even for 8s. >Changing out 20mA for RS-232 isn't hard at all with the older machines >- Vince Slyngstad made some EIA paddle cards for pre-OMNIBUS boxes. I >have at least two of his cards. Some day, I'll find the time to >assemble them, but for now, I'm fine with hanging a VT220 off of my >-8/L with a 20mA cable. 20ma works too. Though it's not hard to pick up the TTL or logic before 20ma conversion. >> What is possible now is a small micro and a big static ram of 512k are >> which fairly easy to find it's not unreasonable to simulate a RX02 >> using a micro at the end of a serial line (or parallel) and NOT use >> the protocal of TU58. > >Sure. There's no requirement to use the TU58 protocol, it's just >understood, is out there, and happens to work with a real device. If >you are going to write an OS/8 driver anyway, there's no reason to >stick with a protocol that's hard to use. I just dredged up an old >thread in my reading where someone suggested the TU-58 as the >"obvious" device for a diskless PDP-8. I was just heading that debate >off at the pass, since it was extensively investigated over 20 years >ago and determined to be difficult, technically. The need to buffer the tape data is the annoying part as well. >> The cpu/micro used does not have to be very high >> powered or fast as all it's doing is data transfer and PDP-8 PIO is >> usually slower than 30-40K words/sec. > >Certainly not if you are rolling your own interface. If you are >trying to make a plug-compatible RX02 emulator, there might be some >bit-level stuff that's timing critical, but the overall bandwidth is >rather low by modern standards. RX02 interface [RX8E] is fairly simple bit serial with clock. >> In the end what is used is more a matter of convenince than technology. > >Agreed. > >> I happen to be lucky(?) as my 8f has two serial cards but nothing >> else device wise. One of th cards is the usual console TTY but the >> other is a UART based M8652 that were often used for modem >> banks and serial data concentrators/switches made using PDP-8s. > >Nice. What I have is some Q or Ubus quad wide proto cards that could easily be used on Omnibus with a few cuts. Parallel IO is spelled out in the interface handbook. > >In amongst all the other recent PDP-8 discussions, I have to wonder >that if one was going to be spending $$$ on a 1 sq ft. PCB with edge >fingers and whatever line drivers, what would be a good choice of >peripheral options to stack on the same board. For example, the >DKC8AA has several independent devices on one hex-height card. In a DCKAA, have to look that one up. >quad-height form factor, one could easily stuff two RX8Es, and at >least one, if not two KL8Es, which should take care of a lot of >external I/O requirements. The RX8Es would use the standard OS/8 >driver, of course, simplifying that aspect of things, but then one >could attach that to either a real RX02 if you had one, with floppies >to read/write, or to an off-board RX02 emulator as we've been >discussing. Personally, I don't have even one RX8E per OMNIBUS >machine, so alternatives are an interesting direction for me. If the driver were developed for the device it could be anything. For example the device could be two parallel output and one input port. One output port sets the block address (128word block for 512kW) and the second is read/write to ram data with auto increment to the low block counter. That would be PIO, no micro and two 512k byte wide rams (4bits wasted) and 5 74LS161s as the ram address counter (modulus 128). There are existing pdp8 parallel IO cards that can do that. When it cools down and I get a few minutes that might be an easy board to try and build. I imagine patching OS/8 is not hard as the device page is locatable. Though the complete package would need a test program, formatter and a device driver for OS/8. Allison > >-ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 27 17:48:53 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:48:53 -0400 Subject: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80) Message-ID: <0JKB0000DGNGRPV0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Modern external storage emulating RX02 (was Re: Most used toys,was Re: The late, great TRS-80) > From: Richard > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:54:41 -0600 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >In article <468295F6.5050801 at nktelco.net>, > C H Dickman writes: > >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> > and expansion options. An RX01/RX02-attached device, at least, will >> > work with OMNIBUS machines as well as the VT78 and DECmate I - overall >> > not a bad range to cover. >> >> I did that using a PC as the external storage and a PC parallel port as >> the interface. Lets me run my PDP-8/e and PDP-11/40. DECtape is cool, >> but a little slow. > >Do you have software/interface schematics? I have a DECmate I and no >RX0[12] drives. Easier to find an rx01. Allison >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Jun 28 01:54:14 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:54:14 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> References: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706272354k360f9997ta9d25ee0b5c5ce6e@mail.gmail.com> On 27/06/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > The only reason I feel Tony's HP can't be classified as a microcomputer is > because I was taught that a microcomputer utilized a microprocessor, and I > was taught that the definition of a microprocessor is a processing solution > contained entirely on one chip. Anything larger (more than one chip) and > it's a mini. As that definition has always seemed logical to me, I've > always stuck with it. Hmm... so would a Slot 1 pentium/celeron processor qualify under that definition.. Personally. I feel I have to catagorise that particular format of processor more as a daughterboard, not a single chip.. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 28 02:07:04 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70706272354k360f9997ta9d25ee0b5c5ce6e@mail.gmail.com> References: <200706261544.34527.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> <2f806cd70706272354k360f9997ta9d25ee0b5c5ce6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Rob wrote: > On 27/06/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > > The only reason I feel Tony's HP can't be classified as a microcomputer is > > because I was taught that a microcomputer utilized a microprocessor, and I > > was taught that the definition of a microprocessor is a processing solution > > contained entirely on one chip. Anything larger (more than one chip) and > > it's a mini. As that definition has always seemed logical to me, I've > > always stuck with it. > > Hmm... so would a Slot 1 pentium/celeron processor qualify under that > definition.. Personally. I feel I have to catagorise that particular > format of processor more as a daughterboard, not a single chip.. I think those weird old Zeos machines would also qualify. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 28 04:36:14 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:36:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <00c701c7b917$ff0d0c20$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <158662.77826.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I have an Amiga modem, but no cables for it. My Amiga's are still down too. - Andrew B (via mobile phone) Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > How about early modems, anyone collect them? > Not exactly early, but at one time I did collect various Hayes SmartModems > and assorted other "interesting" modems....still have them, but lost > interest in them LONG ago. > TTFN - Pete. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Jun 28 06:01:16 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:01:16 +0100 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> On 28 Jun, 2007, at 04:59, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:23:32 -0700 > From: "Billy Pettit" > Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? > To: > Message-ID: > <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2 at wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > This thread has been a real disappointment. Almost all of the > responses > have been about computers using standard microprocessors - off the > shelf > components. Yes a few had non-vanilla flavored OS's, or idiotic I/O > schemes. A few were even painted different colors from PC Beige. Then you are not reading all the replies. > But nobody got into the really weird internals that have made the > industry > so fascinating. Go back to the real early days, like the Atlas, > that let > you build your instruction set from scratch using micro-code. > Nobody seemed > to remember that most of the late 50's and early 60's used 40 bits > as a > standard. MOST????? STANDARD????? Rubbish! IBM 7094 - 36 bits. ICT 1301 - 48 bits. CDC 6600/7600 60 (or was it 64?) bits. CDC SC17 (not sure exact era) - 16 bits. Elliott 903/920B/905/920C/920ATC - 18 bits. Many of the BCD machines used 4 bit words I believe. Mid 60s ICL 1900 - 24 bits. What used 40 bits? > What about the MicroData machines with a build your own > instructions on the fly? Tell us more please. Microcoded or 'Extra code' ? > And then there were the ultra-strange like the G-15 - 29 bit word > size, all > instructions were modified moves through arithmetic logic or I/O > devices. > The I/O devices were actually part of the internal logic - no > channels. Actual physical memory, access my DMA from the device or just memory mapped I/O ? > Burroughs had some fascinating ideas on virtual memory in the 5500 > series. > Seymour Cray lived weird and unusual in most of his designs. > Several people > have developed machines to run high level languages in native mode: > ADA at > Rational, APL on the Star 100, LISP, COBOL, etc. > > > > There's not much unusual about putting some glue logic around a $3 > micro > chip. We've all done it. How about the truly weird machines? > Doesn't > anyone remember when logic didn't come in million transistor packages? Remember? I am restoring/maintaining an ICT 1301 which has individual Germanium transistors, wire-OR, four and gates to a PCB, one flip- flop one a PCB, a clock derived from the timing track of the last addressed drum store, a core store unit weighing half a ton an stores just 2000 x 48 bit words (plus 2000 x 2 parity bits). Its got Ampex TM4 mag tape drives (not industry standard 7 or 9 track, these are ten track units with hubs the same design as professional audio tapes and the 2 and 3 inch wide video tapes once used by TV broadcasters). Its got readers and punches for 80 column cards and 5, (6 or 7?) and 8 track paper tape, its got a 600 line per minute barrel printer with 120 print positions. The mag tape transfers are done by DMA but the rest and unbuffered peripherals, if you want to print a line on the printer, you check to see what character is in line with the hammers, see if you have any of them in your line, and fire those print hammers which match, then wait until the print barrel moves on then repeat until you have printed the whole line. Then you look up where the paper advance mechanism currently is and select the next sprag and release current one. If you want to page feed, release all the sprags and count the 60 lines as they go past. To punch a card, in software, turn the 3 phase contactor on to start the motor, wait until its at the correct speed, activate the picker knives to start the card in motion (sideways), look to see which if any of your 80 columns need a hole in the first (10) row, wait until that row is under the punch bail, fire those interposers, repeat for the 11 row, then the 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 rows. Then feed the next card and at the same time get ready to verify the card you just punched. Wait until the 10 row is under the check reading wire brushes, read them in and see if they match, repeat for all the other eleven rows, if anything fails to verify, send the card (and the following one) to the reject hopper, stop the punch and inform the operator. > Come on people: there were computers long before there were > microcomputers. And some of them still work and have 'design council' award winning control consoles 4 feet wide and 2 and a bit feet tall, consume 13KVA three phase and weigh about 5 tons. > And many of them were wonderfully different and creative. Indeed. And some of them almost make you cry because so much more could have been done with the same amount of electonics. My machine has been modified to implement an index instruction. Previously all indexing and indirection had to be done by program modification, and even now subroutine return is done that way (see my previous e-mail). I have one machine in 'conserved' state, unmolested, unrepaired non- runner, and one with extra tweeks and darn right mass rewiring which runs and I can't stop thinking about how it could be improved, yet somehow manage to stop myself doing so. There are so many gaps in the instruction code and spare bits in the instructions etc. The only modification I am working on plugs into an extension port lashed up by a previous owner. This is to capture the data from the machine onto modern media. May replace with an RS232 interface later to drive a teletype and/or pen plotter, and/or a parallel inteface for a Friden Flexowriter. Anyone got a spare plug for the i/o port of the Flexowriter, or for an IBM keypunch (model 836) or spare patch leads for the patch panel (4mm with a ball in them). Anyone got a spare Ellliott paper tape reader, preferably 1000 characters per second but a 300cps unit would do. My machine originally had two readers but somehow I only ended up with one of them. Anyone got any spare 'ICL Standard Interface' peripherals I could plug into the vacant port on the machine? Anyone in the UK want an Elliott surface grinder which leaks hydraulic fluid or want an Alba shaper (a planing machine for steel, a brutal thing, takes out about 1/16 - 1/8 at every stroke, comes off bright red). Or a really old pillar drill, large capacity, looks prehistoric. All three phase of course. Again in the UK, anyone got any punched card trays, the steel type, preferably with the racks too, but the trays only would be a help. Willing to pay (reasonable) price for any of the above. Roger Holmes. Classic computer collector, classic car collector, machine tool collector/user (for the prior mentioned hobbies), and for a job, programmer of CAD and graphic software and printer/plotter drivers for Apple computers. > > > > Billy > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 28 07:58:28 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:58:28 -0500 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <004c01c7b984$06680350$6500a8c0@BILLING> Billy wrote... >> Come on people: there were computers long before there were >> microcomputers. I seem to remember a recent post complaining that this list was nothing but minicomputer and big-iron talk, no microcomputer discussion. Apparently that was wrong, as now there is a complaint it's just micro talk? ;) Jay From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 08:49:55 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:49:55 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Classic HP forums?? - plotter questions Message-ID: <20882419.1183038595527.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I got no bites the first time, so I'm trying again. Does anyone know of any good classic HP forums, sites, or parts sources? I need to construct an interface cable for my recently acquired HP7202A flatbed pen plotter. This plotter was manufactured around 1971 and could be interfaced using one of three styles of interface cables (it appears that they all plugged into the same male adapter port on the back of the unit, but must have used different pins). I plan to use the 20mA style of hookup, which I assume will use four of the pins. I just need to determine which of the pins are used for the 20mA send and receive. Other options were for an EIA (RS232) connection, and a third type of connection. The plotter is controlled using ASCII commands to plot points or lines. I am looking for someone who may have had some experience with these plotters in the past. Even better (although not likely) would be that someone would have an interface cable. These are HP part numbers 17251A, 17252A, and 17253A. Last night I repaired the fuse housing, cleaned out the dust, and powered on the plotter. It worked fine in standalone mode. The electrostatic "chart hold" feature held a piece of paper in place on the bed, and the lower left and upper right "pen set" functions worked, as did the "pen up / pen down" button and the controls to move the pen. The plan is to hook this ancient device up to my 11/40 as part of my classic computer center. Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 28 09:03:06 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:03:06 -0500 Subject: HP 7905/6 disc repair stuff sought Message-ID: <00d601c7b98d$0f8d1520$6500a8c0@BILLING> Rather urgently needed.... Servo formatting PCA (12995-60114) and the special servo writing head Servo reference cartridge (12995-60031) I was sure that I had the above items, but I just went looking for them and it appears all my "special" cartridges were head alignment carts not servo formatting carts. Also turns out all my disk service boards were head alignment boards, no servo formatting boards. Yikes!! What hurts the most - is someone showed me a link to the above on gov liq a few weeks ago. I didn't bid - and now wish I did. If anyone has the above, I'd be interested in borrowing for a bit... or trading for. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 28 09:23:18 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:23:18 -0500 Subject: Classic HP forums?? - plotter questions References: <20882419.1183038595527.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <047201c7b98f$e26a55f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Ashley wrote... > Does anyone know of any good classic HP forums, > sites, or parts sources? Not besides this one ;) You might try Crisis, see www.crisis.com They are great folks, I've delt with them a lot. You might try some of the comp.sys.hp.XXXX newsgroups, I know there is an HP hardware one there that used to have good info (not saying they don't anymore, I just haven't been there in ages). There was also an HP3000 newsgroup that had a lot of grizzled veterans from "back in the day" who may have some info. I just noticed a csd.machines and csd.machines.hp group that could be fruitful just based on the name (I'm assuming csd is Computer Systems Division). > I need to construct an interface cable for my > recently acquired HP7202A flatbed pen plotter. I messed with a few HP plotters many many years ago. I seem to recall that their interfaces were bizarrely "multipurpose". You're going to need a manual I bet. I seem to recall that there were option selections in the cable as well as dip switch settings? Whatcha gonna do with your other 72xx plotter? Jay West From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 09:34:54 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:34:54 -0400 Subject: Diamond Rio PMP-300 (was Re: What didn't happen in the future) Message-ID: On 6/27/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:04 AM +0100 6/27/07, Rob wrote: > >Almost on topic(only a year to go), > > Actually I'm not sure what the stance is on > peripherals, but if it was a computer it likely > would be fully on topic. I would think there would be no difference made between peripherals and CPUs of a given vintage or "coolness". I think what's at issue here is that technically, the PMP300 is nine years old, so it has to squeeze in by nature of its place in history, not its mere age. > IIRC, it was the first > commercially available MP3 player, at least it > was the first widely available one. AFAIK, it was the second model to market, but the first widely available one. > I bought one new as well, though I paid $300 and > got it when it first came out. Ow! FLASH sure was expensive then... but so were all of Diamond's other products. > I actually had my Rio working with WinXP at one > point, and I believe I also had it working with > Linux. Here's what I've been using for years to pump and dump music on my Rio PMP300 (from the README) RIO utility v1.07 - The Snowblind Alliance (c) 1999 I did run into a parallel-port permissions issue with RedHat WS3 last year, but under RedHat 9, the ancient Rio utility worked perfectly. I think it's just a matter of tweaking the rio.cpp to open the parallel port with a more modern technique - the port banging code should work fine after that. If not, then there's a reason to stick with an "obsolete" version of Linux - to get unfettered I/O port access. :-/ > I still have the original box, and should have > everything that goes with it. My intention is > that one day it will be a museum exhibit along > with a lot of my other computer equipment, that > is the only thing it has ever been good for. > Personally I wish I'd never wasted the $300 on it. Your feelings about it reminds me that I'm glad I didn't get one when they were _totally_ new. I paid at least $100 for mine, since, ISTR, I was concerned that the RIAA lawsuit over potential violations of the 1992 Home Recording Act might make them unavailable. Fortunately for us all, that one was settled in favor of Diamond. I still use mine. I was given an iPod Shuffle that I don't use much because embedded non-user-replaceable Li-Ion batteries annoy me. I have a removable NiMH AA in my PMP300, which means it won't be dying of battery fatigue anytime soon (I use my Palm III in favor of my Palm V for the same reason). I do have a half-dead one, that I'd love to repair... it was free from the previous owner because as far as we can determine, one of the FLASH chips is defective. I think it stores songs, but not the full amount - there's a dead zone in the internal 32MB map. Simple fix once one identifies which chip it is, and locates a spare. -ethan From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 28 09:36:11 2007 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 06:36:11 -0800 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <46827153.3040007@garlic.com> References: <46827153.3040007@garlic.com> Message-ID: <4683C75B.5020305@socal.rr.com> I have some nasty chemical type stuff called Goof off, weak citrasolve "goo gone", and some commercial citrasolve that I don't know how strong it is, but can't be full strength since the carpet guys I know say full strength won't last a month in any kind of plastic bottle. In a pinch, peanut butter sometimes works. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 28 09:52:14 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:52:14 -0500 Subject: MP3 players References: Message-ID: <07f501c7b993$ecedb180$6500a8c0@BILLING> I find it exceedingly difficult to consider this type of thread on-topic. Jay From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 09:59:22 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:59:22 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: >From: "Billy Pettit" > ---snip--- > > >But nobody got into the really weird internals that have made the industry >so fascinating. Go back to the real early days, like the Atlas, that let >you build your instruction set from scratch using micro-code. Nobody >seemed >to remember that most of the late 50's and early 60's used 40 bits as a >standard. What about the MicroData machines with a build your own >instructions on the fly? > > Hi I did mention my Nicolet 20 bit. The ALU had 5 ports that you could use 3 at a time to create different functions. It used a mixture of DTL and TTL. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 10:06:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:06:27 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 6/28/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/27/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Why do you need a multiline display to play games? > > > > _I_ agree with you. > > I don't agree at the fundamental level... Oops... I mean to say that I _do_ agree with you at the fundamental level (that a multiline display is not an *absolute* requirement for computer games) - that'll teach me to reply when nodding off at the keyboard. -ethan From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 10:26:46 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:26:46 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Classic HP forums?? - plotter questions Message-ID: <20663193.1183044406376.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Jay wrote: >You might try Crisis, see www.crisis.com >They are great folks, I've delt with them a lot. > >You might try some of the comp.sys.hp.XXXX newsgroups, >I know there is an HP hardware one there that used to >have good info (not saying they don't anymore, I just >haven't been there in ages). There was also an HP3000 >newsgroup that had a lot of grizzled veterans from >"back in the day" who may have some info. I just noticed >a csd.machines and csd.machines.hp group that >could be fruitful just based on the name (I'm assuming >csd is Computer Systems Division). I will poke around in these groups and see what I can find. >> I need to construct an interface cable for my >> recently acquired HP7202A flatbed pen plotter. >I messed with a few HP plotters many many years ago. >I seem to recall that their interfaces were bizarrely >"multipurpose". You're going to need a manual I bet. >I seem to recall that there were option selections in the >cable as well as dip switch settings? Whatcha gonna >do with your other 72xx plotter? I have the service manual for the 7200A, which is basically the same plotter. I am still trying to figure out the technical diagrams in the manual. HP does not appear to have as much detail in their engineering diagrams as DEC did. If I can't find a cable, I will figure it out. I just need to find out which 4 pins are used for the 20mA interface and then I should be in business. I plan to keep my other old HP plotter, which is a 7210A model. Right now I need to "borrow" the pen holder from it because the one on the 7202A is broken. The 7210A was a couple years newer than the 7200A/7202A. It used a different command language and a different interface. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 28 10:38:06 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:38:06 -0500 Subject: Classic HP forums?? - plotter questions References: <20663193.1183044406376.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <081f01c7b99a$551721f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Ashley wrote... > Hp does not appear to > have as much detail in their engineering diagrams as DEC > did. Oh, I strongly beg to differ as I'm now intimately familiar with both documentation sets. However, at the risk of starting a religious war I shall just saunter off quietly instead :) Jay West From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Jun 28 10:45:30 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:45:30 +0000 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? Message-ID: <062820071545.27651.4683D79A000748CD00006C0322134843739DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> >Message: 13 >Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:18:09 -0400 >From: "Jason McBrien" >Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >On 6/26/07, Dave McGuire wrote: >> In the "odd PCs" department, I have to mention the Seequa >> Chameleon. It has an 8088 and a Z80, so it can run DOS, CP/M-80, or >> CP/M-86. >The DEC Rainbow 100 was a similar machine, it had a 8086 and a Z/80, and >could triple (or quad) boot into CPM/80, CPM/86, MS-DOS, or act as a VT-220 >via hardware emulation. It didn't get far as it used wacky 400Kb single >sided quad density floppies that hardly anyone else used. According to >Wikipedia, DEC even ported Windows 1.0 to it. Add the Otrona Attache 8:16 to that list. It used an 8086 daughter card to run MS-DOS 2.11. It had trouble with WordPerfect, though, as the keyboard did not have the PC function keys. It also did PC graphics in software, so a program like Borland's Reflex database redrew the screen _very_ slowly when you scrolled. >A couple more oddities- >The Tandy 2000 was one of the few 80186 based clones, and ran well behaved >MS-DOS apps, though it had somewhat oddball video hardware, keyboard and >serial port setup. It required a custom version of DOS, and MS even ported >Xenix to it. The HP 100LX/200LX palmtops used a custom 80186 and ran most DOS applications, running MS-DOS 5.0 from ROM. There could be problems with the LX's graphics, which was 640x200 CGA with some quirks. >The Atari Portfolio was probably the first palmtop device that ran DOS apps, >though it was such a wacky architecture it's software support was limited. The Poqet came out shortly after the Portfolio, IIRC. Ran quite a few DOS apps under MS-DOS 3.3 -- the Poqet PC website (http://www.bmason.com/PoqetPC/faq/poqetpc.html) calls it "about 99.9% compatible with the original IBM/PC-XT desktop computer." >The HP 100 series were some of the first laptop computers that could run >DOS. It had DOS, Basic, Lotus and a few other productivity apps in ROM, and >used the somewhat odd HP-IL bus to interface with peripherals, among them a >battery powered disk drive. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 11:28:47 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:28:47 -0500 Subject: old modems (was Telephony switches) Message-ID: <51ea77730706280928r39fc75b0v6283524ce7d108df@mail.gmail.com> Not my first modem (that would have been the Vicmodem on the CBM Vic 20,) but probably the oldest one I put to actual use was an Andersen-Jacobson 300 baud model. It has disappeared into the maze of junk in my basement so I don't have the full spec on it. But it was direct connect, had heavy-duty toggles on the front and a classy woodgrain veneer on the top and sides :) Believe it or not I used it from about 1993-1995, in the leaner days when a lot of my gear came from the dumpster at the local community college. From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 11:44:36 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:44:36 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Classic HP forums?? - plotter questions Message-ID: <32636027.1183049076747.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Hp does not appear to >> have as much detail in their engineering diagrams as DEC >> did. > >Oh, I strongly beg to differ as I'm now intimately familiar with both >documentation sets. However, at the risk of starting a religious war I shall >just saunter off quietly instead :) > >Jay West Nah, don't saunter away. I'll scan the stuff in and maybe you can give me some pointers on deciphering it!! Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 11:47:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:47:36 -0400 Subject: old modems (was Telephony switches) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706280928r39fc75b0v6283524ce7d108df@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730706280928r39fc75b0v6283524ce7d108df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/28/07, Jason T wrote: > Not my first modem (that would have been the Vicmodem on the CBM Vic > 20,)... I still have my bought-new-in-1982 VIC modem that I used to use to get on CompuServe when I was in High School. There weren't any decent comms programs for the C-64 back then, so I started by rolling my own in BASIC (complete with ASCII<->PETSCII translation), then went on to beta-test VidTex for the C-64. 20 years later, I ended up working in the same group at CompuServe as some of the guys that had previously been building the VidTex-based content. I brought my xeroxed preliminary manual in, and fired up the VidTex client for them under VICE. They were impressed and amazed (stunned?) that someone had preserved any of that. $5.00 / hr at 300 baud (off-peak)... I *surely* don't think _those_ were "good old days". It was fun, but expensive. An off-the-cuff estimate is that charges for an hour then would equate in today's dollars to at least a month of all-you-can-eat dial-up service now, or a substantial chunk of a month's broadband service. One hour. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 12:36:47 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:36:47 -0700 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "William Donzelli" > >>Can someone refresh my hazy memory? Would that qualify as a >>"computer"? > >I would not consider it. I think you could do much the same with a >small pile of 7400 combinatorial logic. I just saw a web site with truly reduced instruction set. It had one instruction. Subtract and branch < 0. One can do a lot with a simple model. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. It?s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 12:42:28 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:42:28 -0700 Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. In-Reply-To: <4682C66C.E4762258@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: >From: Brent Hilpert > >William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > How about early modems, anyone collect them ? > > > > No. Nobody does. > > > > The only folks that actively collect modems are the RTTY (radio > > Teletype) guys, and those modems are pretty alien to what we computer > > guys know as modems. > > > > I suppose I accumulate modems, simply because some I do not want >scrapped. 205B? > >I have two old ones (I'm not including Hayes-and-after in this): > - a Bunker-Ramo from 1967/8; discrete transistors and large, canned >filters; >electrical connection to tel network; about 19"*6"*10". > - an acoustic modem built in to a (!) teak box, late 60s or early 70s I >think, discrete transistor. > >Haven't had a chance to play with them or figure out specs, they're in the >queue for reverse engineering at some time. I have a cat modem. I also have a softmodem that one can load a program into. I used it for a DSP project that did filtering and weather fax decoding. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Picture this ? share your photos and you could win big! http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 28 13:00:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:00:13 -0600 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4683F72D.7070106@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > I just saw a web site with truly reduced instruction set. It had one > instruction. Subtract and branch < 0. > One can do a lot with a simple model. One or TWO's compliment? Decimal or binary? What if I want Subtract and Jump if < 0? I've seen the same site. :) The Ultimate RISC page is here. http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/risc/ The minimal CISC page is there. http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/cisc/ and yes 'Sam I am', I'll read them anywhere. :) From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jun 28 13:00:36 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:00:36 -0400 Subject: [lisaem] LisaEm 1.0.0-RC2 Available for download Message-ID: <4683F744.4030907@arachelian.com> The Lisa Emulator Project, Release Candidate 2 is now ready for download: http://lisaem.sunder.net/downloads.html The biggest change is in the video handling code. The following description on video methods is a bit technical, so skip over it if you find your eyes glaze over. The rawbitmap method: The video updates are now using a hidden API in wxWidgets called rawbmp.h, which allows direct read write access to the pixels. This isn't a secret API by any means, since wxWidgets is open source, however, it is undocumented. To turn this on pass --with-rawbitmap on compiling. This is a lot faster on OS X, but it crashes win32, and shows a black screen on Linux The SetRGB wxImage display method: An alternate method is also available for systems where rawbmp.h doesn't work, such as on win32. Compile using --without-rawbitmap to enable this slightly slower mode. While this mode is also much faster than the original version on OS X, it's slower than rawbmp. The SetRGB method builds a wxImage, and access the pixels via the SetRGB method, then converts the wxImage into a wxBitmap, and blits the result to the display. (On wxWidgets, you can't blit Images, they must be converted to wxBitmaps, and there's no SetRGB method on wxBitmaps.) The original code which built 4x1 blits has been ripped out. In terms of speed, it worked fine on Linux and Windows, but it failed miserably on slower OS X machines. The new code is also a big hack, but at least it's a good hack. :-) The rest of the display mechanism is based on Brian Foley's code, which refreshes only the changed data, and schedules CPU execution via a timer. While Brian's UI code is a lot cleaner, the main LisaEm wx UI code has branched off too far for it to be compatible, so I've adapted the code to do what his code does. Future updates will aim for cleaner C++ code. There may be issues refreshing the display on scrolling, however. Another issue, is that the new code causes a bit of fuzzing in the antialiased modes. This is due to the color levels used by the new code. This will be fixed eventually by trial and error. I suspect that tweaking contrast/brightness levels is what's needed. The Display refresh rate options have been removed as they're no longer needed. The biggest improvement is for G4 OS X machines - the new display code is fast enough to get a 5Mhz on average for a 500Mhz G4 running OS X 10.3.9. It uses about 60M of real memory and about 160M of swap (which includes things like profile disk images, and other mmap'ed data) on the same G4. Other improvements: Dual Parallel ROM cheat - if you have this ROM and are using it, the power on self test is very painfully slow, especially on older systems, the new version bypasses the test routines, so power on time is a lot faster. Should future releases of the emulator support other expansion port cards, this method can be used there as well. NOTE: If you do not enable the ROM cheats when using the Parallel ROM, and set the throttle to anything other than 5MHz, the Parallel ROM tests will not only take a very long time, but fail since they test CPU vs VIA timing. Unlike most standard open source software, LisaEm doesn't use "./configure; make; make install" autoconf/automake method of building. However, Linux distro maintainers have scripts that make use of that, so I've built a fake configure script file that builds a makefile which acts as a wrapper around the build.sh script. libdc42 updates allow access to both macbinaryII wrapped DART and DiskCopy 4.2 images, and detects Disk Copy 6 images. (Since the NDIF/DMG file formats are undocumented, libdc42 cannot support them.) Floppy code can now deserialize tools/install disks and offers the option on disk mounting. Inserting a blank floppy works again. Previously, it either attempted to install an existing floppy, or when inserting a blank disk whilst running Lisa Office System it would cause LOS to hang when initializing. Added raw buffered keyboard mode to compensate for keyboard repeating when throttle >5MHz. The Lisa's COPS Clock is now decoupled from CPU clock, so that the time is accurate regardless of the throttle setting. Remaining known bugs: Screen blurriness with new display. This is a color levels issue. (new) win32 crashes when built --with-rawbitmap (new) Linux shows a black screen when built --with-rawbitmap (new) There's a problem with MacWorks emulation which has existed for a few versions of the emulator - when quitting an application MacWorks gets stuck in a loop refreshing the desktop and reading from the floppy. This prevents the Hard Drive installer from completing as well. I've done a bunch of swap & compile attempts to switch out parts of the source code to isolate the code causing this but haven't been able to locate the bug. Scrollbar arrows overlap in LOS. This has existed since the very first versions. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 28 13:06:35 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:06:35 -0400 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? In-Reply-To: <4682CD66.5050402@jbrain.com> References: <200706251440.00873.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> <4682CD66.5050402@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <29B4A0E1-991B-4A20-9358-F67BAF534FB1@neurotica.com> On Jun 27, 2007, at 4:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >>> Has anyone got any recommendations for PCB CAD software on Linux? >> >> Xcircuit for schematics: >> >> http://opencircuitdesign.com/xcircuit/ >> >> PCB for layout: >> >> http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ >> > Do these two tools sync the schematic with the PCB and allow > backchanges? I find that feature of Eagle very useful. I know some people are looking at back-annotation between gEDA/ gschem and PCB, but I don't know how much progress has been made there. > I tried the gEDA suite a while back, and I found it significantly > harder to use than Eagle. gEDA was pretty rickety a couple of years ago, but it has made significant strides since then. It is now very usable, IMO...I rather like it nowadays. The current incarnation of PCB bears no resemblance to the version that I first used about five years ago...it is *fantastic* now. I'm not trying to sway you away from Eagle, but I do want to point out that the development pace of both the gEDA suite and PCB is very, very fast nowadays. To bring this at least slightly on-topic, I am midway through doing a board layout for Chuck Dickman's RX01/02<->parallel port interface in gschem and PCB. I did one layout for that circuit about a year ago, but with through-hole parts, and I'm nearing the point of swearing off through-hole...this board uses surface-mount components. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 13:25:56 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:25:56 -0400 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? In-Reply-To: <29B4A0E1-991B-4A20-9358-F67BAF534FB1@neurotica.com> References: <200706251440.00873.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> <4682CD66.5050402@jbrain.com> <29B4A0E1-991B-4A20-9358-F67BAF534FB1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6/28/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > ... The current incarnation of PCB bears no > resemblance to the version that I first used about five years > ago...it is *fantastic* now. Far out... I'll have to take another look at it - two years ago, it looked promising, but not enough for me to switch. > To bring this at least slightly on-topic, I am midway through > doing a board layout for Chuck Dickman's RX01/02<->parallel port > interface in gschem and PCB. Excellent. You beat me to it. I was just looking at that circuit yesterday to see about cranking one out. > I did one layout for that circuit about > a year ago, but with through-hole parts, and I'm nearing the point of > swearing off through-hole...this board uses surface-mount components. Hmm... I still have enough through-hole parts to fill several bathtubs, so I'm not sworn off, and I'm quite handy with manual SMT work, but for overall cost to me, I'm still fond of through-hole where possible. Commercial projects, of course, have different financial parameters, but my own stuff, I frequently get 80% or more of the parts right off my shelves. I'll be interested to see how your layout turns out, and, SMT or through-hole, probably be interested in picking up one or two on a group buy, presuming blank boards are an available option. I was going to build at least one adapter on a perfboard, just to play with, so a prefab PCB would be most welcome. -ethan From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jun 28 12:50:51 2007 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > an acoustic modem built in to a (!) teak box Like this one? http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/modem/ Goes well with my S-100 box: http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/s100/woody/ :-) From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jun 28 02:02:07 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:02:07 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1183014127.9194.20.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-06-27 at 23:52 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > And if I did care to look at a painting, I would not be satisfied with > seeing it on a computer display. I have never seen a computer display > with sufficient resolution or colour performance for this sort of thing Way to miss the point... I'm not satisfied with looking at an oil painting, because it doesn't have the ability to reproduce truly photorealistic tones. How does that sound? The relative lack of resolution and colour depth is an artifact of the medium, just as much as grainy canvas or bleedy watercolours are an artifact of other mediums. To say "I don't like it because the quality isn't very good" is a bit like saying "I don't like violins because they don't have much bass". But we're drifting woefully off-topic here. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jun 28 02:03:05 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:03:05 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1183014185.9194.22.camel@elric> On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 01:00 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have played plenty of Doom, but I have also played uncountable hours > of computer games in a 40x25 or 80x24 text window that are entirely > unlike Doom. Get me a QBus framebuffer, and I'll port it to the PDP11. If not Doom, then at least Wolfenstein 3D... Gordon From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Thu Jun 28 02:59:26 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:59:26 +0100 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <46827153.3040007@garlic.com> References: <46827153.3040007@garlic.com> Message-ID: <200706280859.26230.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Wednesday 27 June 2007 15:16:51 jd wrote: > So what removes the harder-than-epoxy dried out duct tape adhesive easily? > > The only thing I know of is soaking in hot TCTFE which has been outlawed > since the patent expired. > > I've tried TFE, methanol, ethanol, IPA, MEK, acetone, xylene, turpentine, > and various amide compounds which also remove acrylic and ABS (and skin) > very well. > > But I want to just remove the adhesive, not everything else but. I use petrol. Do it outside, and wear gloves. Gordon From w.bor at voskuilen.nl Thu Jun 28 05:12:21 2007 From: w.bor at voskuilen.nl (Van Voskuilen Woudenberg BV) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:12:21 +0200 Subject: Bos Cobol Message-ID: <001001c7b96c$d171a140$9800000a@IT> Hi Chuck, Are you still developing with Bos Cobol? Best, Wim From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jun 28 09:02:42 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:02:42 +0100 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <004c01c7b984$06680350$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <004c01c7b984$06680350$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200706281502.42870.gordon@gjcp.net> On Thursday 28 June 2007 13:58:28 Jay West wrote: > Billy wrote... > > >> Come on people: there were computers long before there were > >> microcomputers. > > I seem to remember a recent post complaining that this list was nothing but > minicomputer and big-iron talk, no microcomputer discussion. Apparently > that was wrong, as now there is a complaint it's just micro talk? ;) It's never going to be "all things to all men", is it? Everyone has their own little sphere of interest, and what may seem hugely off-topic to one person might be massively relevant to another. For instance, I like the DEC conversations, but I'm not quite so interested in HP (but I keep an eye on them just the same). I'm surprised there's not more about the UK microcomputer scene. I'm incredibly surprised that there's no discussion at all of early computer-based musical equipment; we all know about EMS and the Putney Studio I'm sure, but what about the Fairlight CMI and the Synclavier? I'm surprised the latter wasn't mentioned during the "weird computers" thread... And what of the things to keep the big *big* iron running? I'm also interested in stuff like the power plant and environmental plant around old kit - but I can easily see how some would see that, and the Fairlight, as offtopic. Maybe we need some sort of map showing what we think is on- and off-topic... Gordon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 28 14:52:59 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:52:59 -0500 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Holmes wrote: > > On 28 Jun, 2007, at 04:59, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> This thread has been a real disappointment. Almost all of the responses >> have been about computers using standard microprocessors - off the shelf >> components. Yes a few had non-vanilla flavored OS's, or idiotic I/O >> schemes. A few were even painted different colors from PC Beige. > > Then you are not reading all the replies. Yet another oddity discovered today: it would seem that the rotating magnetic fixed-head disk in the Burroughs L-2000/3000/4000/5000 machines wasn't for secondary storage (as I'd assumed), it was the primary store in place of the core typically found in systems of the time. I bet there can't be many machines around which had rotating store as the primary memory. From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jun 28 17:05:00 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:05:00 -0600 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <1183014185.9194.22.camel@elric> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> <1183014185.9194.22.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4684308C.5080208@e-bbes.com> be carefull, what you wish for ;-) Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 01:00 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I have played plenty of Doom, but I have also played uncountable hours >> of computer games in a 40x25 or 80x24 text window that are entirely >> unlike Doom. > > Get me a QBus framebuffer, and I'll port it to the PDP11. If not Doom, > then at least Wolfenstein 3D... > > Gordon > > > From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 17:09:14 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:09:14 -0500 Subject: old modems (was Telephony switches) In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730706280928r39fc75b0v6283524ce7d108df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730706281509x155a051er3b9e05cada4732f3@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I still have my bought-new-in-1982 VIC modem that I used to use to get > on CompuServe when I was in High School. There weren't any decent Yep, probably about the same time I got mine. I was about 9 years old, and the Vicmodem was intended to be a Christmas gift. I knew where my parents kept it, and I used to sneak it out of the box and call....what? I don't remember if I had found a BBS list by then. The second big mistake my parents made was signing up for CompuServe with the offer found in the VicModem box. Ohh the credit card bills that followed! I don't know why I was ever allowed near a computer again. > It was fun, but expensive. An off-the-cuff estimate is that charges > for an hour then would equate in today's dollars to at least a month > of all-you-can-eat dial-up service now, or a substantial chunk of a > month's broadband service. One hour. That's a good way to present it. I've tried explaining CIS per-hour service to friends whose only contact with telecom tech has been a cable modem, but they just can't grasp it. And then when you tell them there were no pictures.....! (OK, there were those RLE weather maps on CIS. At 300bps, even!) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 28 16:45:38 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:45:38 -0500 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <200706281502.42870.gordon@gjcp.net> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <004c01c7b984$06680350$6500a8c0@BILLING> <200706281502.42870.gordon@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thursday 28 June 2007 13:58:28 Jay West wrote: >> Billy wrote... >> >>>> Come on people: there were computers long before there were >>>> microcomputers. >> I seem to remember a recent post complaining that this list was nothing but >> minicomputer and big-iron talk, no microcomputer discussion. Apparently >> that was wrong, as now there is a complaint it's just micro talk? ;) > > It's never going to be "all things to all men", is it? Everyone has their own > little sphere of interest Has anyone ever built a spherical computer? That'd be interesting... dead easy to move around, too :-) > I'm surprised there's not more about the UK microcomputer scene. Not enough UK list members, I suspect. I don't know where they all are... not on uk.comp.vintage, that's for sure. Maybe there are just more vendor-specific mailing lists for the UK scene [1] than there are for the US or something. [1] Apply to other non-US countries too, of course. > And what of the things to keep the big *big* iron running? I'm also > interested in stuff like the power plant and environmental plant around old > kit - but I can easily see how some would see that, and the Fairlight, as > offtopic. Indeed... personally I'm a big fan of the mechanical precursors whose mechanisms helped kick-start the computer age - not strictly on-topic, but AFAIK there's nowhere else to discuss such things unfortunately. > Maybe we need some sort of map showing what we think is on- and off-topic... A big Venn diagram with DEC in the middle? ;-) From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 28 15:18:51 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:18:51 +0100 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? References: Message-ID: <002001c7b9c1$8ba0daf0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I have a couple of the old GPO [1] Modem 2B units.... Brings back memories....the 2B was my first modem back in '85. Lots of fun, but not as convenient as one which responds to Hayes "AT" commands. I may still have some documentation somewhere if it's any use to you? TTFN - Pete. From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Jun 28 17:44:20 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:44:20 +0100 Subject: Bos Cobol In-Reply-To: <001001c7b96c$d171a140$9800000a@IT> References: <001001c7b96c$d171a140$9800000a@IT> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706281544g4633c3bfk572f53129ff0982c@mail.gmail.com> On 28/06/07, Van Voskuilen Woudenberg BV wrote: > Hi Chuck, > > Are you still developing with Bos Cobol? > > Best, > Wim > Hi Wim, You have inadvertantly emailed a rather large mailing list that has to do with collecting classic computers, rather than the individual you were obviously trying for. You did however reach one (ex-) Bos Cobol developer.. me.. What were you looking for? Rob, From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Thu Jun 28 17:46:51 2007 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:46:51 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706220947o18d29aa4oeae7cd6a5c92e569@mail.gmail.com> References: <424AE522-EB78-4C0A-BC0E-4C9D8F969EDC@retrobbs.org> <575131af0706220947o18d29aa4oeae7cd6a5c92e569@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8415C691-B462-4154-B636-DCAE18356AF8@retrobbs.org> Thank you for that. It's a highly addictive site. On 22 Jun 2007, at 17:47, Liam Proven wrote: > On 22/06/07, Mark Firestone wrote: >> What I want to know is, what did they write the original mac os on. > > The Lisa, in large parts, and prototype hardware. What the Mac was > going to be underwent a lot of changes in the early days, so by the > time that the OS was taking shape, they already had running > prototypes. > > Go read http://folklore.org/index.py - it's a great site with some > wonderful stories. Not in any terribly coherent order, but that's the > only snag. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/ > profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 > AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com > Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 > > "Well, Steve, I think there's more than one way of looking at it. I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbour named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it." -Bill Gates to Steve Jobs On Windows From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 28 17:01:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:01:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <009d01c7b916$608c1240$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jun 28, 7 00:53:34 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > The only reason I feel Tony's HP can't be classified as a > >microcomputer is because I was taught that a microcomputer > >utilized a microprocessor, and I was taught that the definition > >of a microprocessor is a processing solution contained entirely > >on one chip. Anything larger (more than one chip) and it's a mini.... > > That's a bit too inflexible a definition. Just off the top of my head, by > that logic, the i8080 is a minicomputer....which it clearly is not. Why? The 8080 has all the processing functions on one chip. The other chips used with it are the clock generator and bus interface which IMHO are not processing functions. You might as well claim that the 6502 ins't a microprocessor because it needs and external power supply or something. Actually, my defintion of a microprocessor is a processor which is either a single chipe _or_ a chipset that is only used to make that processor. By that definition, the 1801 is a microprocessor (the 2 chips were only used together to make that processor), a board of TTL is not (those chips were used to make all sorts of different processors, and indeed other circuits too. > > Likewise, would you consider a processor made from bit-slice devices to be a > mini? Actually, I would. Those chips are not only used to make that particular processor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 28 17:06:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:06:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <4682B190.15785.232A8B6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 27, 7 06:50:56 pm Message-ID: > > On 27 Jun 2007 at 20:17, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > Could you elaborate? I've never found a single program that will work > > on, say, my 5150 but not my 5155 or 5160... > > Including ROM BASIC that writes and reads cassette tapes? ROM BASIC is present on the PC, XT/Portanble and AT at least. I have no idea if it was fitted to any PS/2 machines. IIRC, cassette I/O went via a software interrupt (INT 15????). The routines in later BIOSes (XT, AT, etc) returned without doing anything, bnt since all said BIOSes supported extension ROMs, I see no good reason why you couldn't have a BIOS extension and a little hardware to add cassette I/O to the later machines, if you were insane enough to want it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 28 17:17:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:17:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 28, 7 01:00:10 am Message-ID: > Graphics are not a requirement for games, just as multiple lines of > text are not a requirement for games, but each level of display > sophistication encapsulates the varieties under it, and extend the > possibilities dramatically. Of course. I don't think anyone would expect to be able to run a Doom-like gape, or even a space invaders type of arcade came on a machine with a 1-line display like the HP9830. But that's a far cry from saying that it's impossible to play games on an HP9830. Think of chess. I have no idea if there ever was a chess program for the HP9830, I wouldn't be suprised if there was, I suspect there was enough memory for it, etc. It could display the moves on a 1-line display using the standard notation, and you (the player) would have to keep track of where the pieces are, say by using a real chess set abd board. Of ocurse it's more convenient to have a full-screen display and display the board there (although I am not convinced anything is added by having a '3D' represenation of the pieces with shadows, etc, over the sort of diagram you see in chess books]. Equally you can play a text adventure on 1-line display (there is, amazingly, an adventure game for the HP75C handheld computer), it's more convenient to do so on a a machine with a multi-line displauy or printer. > > Contrast Lunar Lander on a calculator, or on a TTY, or on a PET > display, or on a vector display (Atari's arcade machine from the Or to keep it very much on-topic, a GT40. > 1970s)... essentially, it's the same game - a simulation of landing a > spacecraft under 0.167g with limited fuel and potentially limited > landing zone opportunities. The only real difference is the extent to > which the machine can reproduce aspects of the view or at least a > representation of the controls. In all examples, you are queried, > either by typing in thrust values, or by pulling a lever that > translates to thrust values, then after a calculation phase, the game > re-presents the environment, either numerically or graphically. For > all that the premise and potentially the calculation engine are > essentially the same, they are all different games. THat I dod not dispute. I am challenging the ocmment that you couldn't have games on a 9830. Yes, there are some gmaes that need more than a 1-line display, some that are a lot nicer on a full-screen or grapghical displau, and some that are perfectly palyable on a 1-line display. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 28 17:38:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:38:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic HP forums?? - plotter questions In-Reply-To: <20663193.1183044406376.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Ashley Carder" at Jun 28, 7 11:26:46 am Message-ID: > > > Jay wrote: > >You might try Crisis, see www.crisis.com > >They are great folks, I've delt with them a lot. > > > >You might try some of the comp.sys.hp.XXXX newsgroups, > >I know there is an HP hardware one there that used to > >have good info (not saying they don't anymore, I just > >haven't been there in ages). There was also an HP3000 > >newsgroup that had a lot of grizzled veterans from > >"back in the day" who may have some info. I just noticed > >a csd.machines and csd.machines.hp group that > >could be fruitful just based on the name (I'm assuming > >csd is Computer Systems Division). > > I will poke around in these groups and see what I can find. > > >> I need to construct an interface cable for my > >> recently acquired HP7202A flatbed pen plotter. > > >I messed with a few HP plotters many many years ago. > >I seem to recall that their interfaces were bizarrely > >"multipurpose". You're going to need a manual I bet. > >I seem to recall that there were option selections in the > >cable as well as dip switch settings? Whatcha gonna > >do with your other 72xx plotter? > > I have the service manual for the 7200A, which is basically > the same plotter. I am still trying to figure out the > technical diagrams in the manual. HP does not appear to > have as much detail in their engineering diagrams as DEC > did. If I can't find a cable, I will figure it out. I just > need to find out which 4 pins are used for the 20mA interface > and then I should be in business. > > I plan to keep my other old HP plotter, which is a 7210A model. > Right now I need to "borrow" the pen holder from it because > the one on the 7202A is broken. > > The 7210A was a couple years newer than the 7200A/7202A. It > used a different command language and a different interface. > > Ashley > http://www.woffordwitch.com > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 28 17:27:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:27:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Jun 28, 7 12:01:16 pm Message-ID: > > But nobody got into the really weird internals that have made the > > industry > > so fascinating. Go back to the real early days, like the Atlas, > > that let > > you build your instruction set from scratch using micro-code. My first post in this thread mantioned the PERQ, which is completely soft-microcoded. And where you, the user, were expected to want to modify the microcode. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 28 17:24:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:24:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <1183014185.9194.22.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jun 28, 7 08:03:05 am Message-ID: > Get me a QBus framebuffer, and I'll port it to the PDP11. If not Doom, > then at least Wolfenstein 3D... Actually, there were some rather nice graphics systems for the PDP11. For example the I2S Model 70 had a resolution of 515*512 points with, IIRC, 24 bit colour. And some local processing built-in (I can provide a lot more detials if you want them, but I would haev to dig out the manuals). I suspect you could play most games on that sort of display... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 28 17:33:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:33:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic HP forums?? - plotter questions In-Reply-To: <20882419.1183038595527.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Ashley Carder" at Jun 28, 7 09:49:55 am Message-ID: > > I got no bites the first time, so I'm trying again. > > Does anyone know of any good classic HP forums, > sites, or parts sources? I've already mentioned my favourite site for old HP manuals in a different thread. > > I need to construct an interface cable for my > recently acquired HP7202A flatbed pen plotter. > This plotter was manufactured around 1971 and > could be interfaced using one of three styles of > interface cables (it appears that they all plugged > into the same male adapter port on the back of It's not unheard-of for HP to use external interface circuitry. The serial port on many of their older termianls, and one some HP9000/200 stuff, was a 5 0pin microribbon connector. It carries the normal RS232 signals at RS232 levels, so a simple cable will link it to a nromal DB25 RS232 device, But there are also power lines on that 50 pin connector, and from waht I've read, HP sold (at least) an RS422 interface, a current loop interfave and a 300 baud modem that plugged into said connector and drew power form it. I asusem that;'s not hte case with your plotter though. > the unit, but must have used different pins). I > plan to use the 20mA style of hookup, which I > assume will use four of the pins. I just need > to determine which of the pins are used for the > 20mA send and receive. Other options were for Does the service manual contain schematics? If so, it should be easy to find out which pins are used. If you have the problem of having to trace the signal through various cables and adapter PCBs to get it from the logic to the exernal connector, then I recoemnet tracing it on the actual hardware (if only to be sure). Use an ohmeter to check continuity from, say, the optoisolator for current loop receice to the read panel connector -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 28 17:21:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:21:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <1183014127.9194.20.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jun 28, 7 08:02:07 am Message-ID: > Way to miss the point... I'm not satisfied with looking at an oil > painting, because it doesn't have the ability to reproduce truly > photorealistic tones. How does that sound? > > The relative lack of resolution and colour depth is an artifact of the > medium, just as much as grainy canvas or bleedy watercolours are an Of coruse. And the artist, if he's any good ;-), will know the limitations of the medium and will (a) choos the most approriate medium for the effect he wants and (b) will paint the picture accordingly. IMHO, if you then translate that picture into another medium (say by displaying an oil painting on a computer screen) you _do_ lose something. > artifact of other mediums. To say "I don't like it because the quality > isn't very good" is a bit like saying "I don't like violins because they > don't have much bass". And no sane composer would write a piece of music that used violins for the bass notes :-) -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 28 17:49:23 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:49:23 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <46843AF2.B4E72061@cs.ubc.ca> Another oddball machine (I've only read about it and heard about it, never worked on it) - The Nanodata QM-1, circa 1970, programmable at the nanocode level, to quote: "was developed as a universal emulation engine for research into new computer architectures" (Comp. Arch. and Organisation / J.P.Hayes). Perhaps not so weird today when everbody throws CPU design into an FPGA/CPLD, but according to the book it was the first nanoprogrammable machine. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 28 17:51:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:51:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 28, 7 02:52:59 pm Message-ID: > core typically found in systems of the time. I bet there can't be many > machines around which had rotating store as the primary memory. Depends on what you meand by 'around'. If you mean 'surviving now', then you're probably right, but there were certainly machines with, say, a drum store as main memory. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 28 17:52:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:52:56 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk>, <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4683D958.2968.16663E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jun 2007 at 14:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > Yet another oddity discovered today: it would seem that the rotating magnetic > fixed-head disk in the Burroughs L-2000/3000/4000/5000 machines wasn't for > secondary storage (as I'd assumed), it was the primary store in place of the > core typically found in systems of the time. I bet there can't be many > machines around which had rotating store as the primary memory. Not at all uncommon during the 1950's. (e.g. LGP-30) In fact, the Univac SS-80 that I mentioned not only has a drum as main memory, but it's synchronized to the card reader. There were two machines in the Univac "Solid State" series; the SS-80 for conventional 80-column Hollerith cards and the SS-90 for Univac 90- column cards. The layout on the drum was different for each. The "solid state" refers not to transistors (which were used mostly to drive indicator lamps), but rather to the magnetic cores used not for memory, but for logical operations; one clock cycle per core. The master clock was driven with 6 4X150 power tetrodes. Very unusual--and very reliable for its day. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 28 18:02:45 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:02:45 -0600 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <004c01c7b984$06680350$6500a8c0@BILLING> <200706281502.42870.gordon@gjcp.net> <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Has anyone ever built a spherical computer? That'd be interesting... > dead easy to move around, too :-) Only the Earth... but you're not to know about that yet. > Indeed... personally I'm a big fan of the mechanical precursors whose > mechanisms helped kick-start the computer age - not strictly on-topic, > but AFAIK there's nowhere else to discuss such things unfortunately. Other a bit in BYTE magazine in the 70's I can't think of much I have read on the topic. >> Maybe we need some sort of map showing what we think is on- and >> off-topic... A big Venn diagram with DEC in the middle? Nope ... a PDP 8 for the USA. What was the most common computer in the UK of the early 70's? From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 28 14:24:27 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:24:27 -0500 Subject: MP3 players In-Reply-To: <07f501c7b993$ecedb180$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <07f501c7b993$ecedb180$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <46840AEB.3070005@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > I find it exceedingly difficult to consider this type of thread on-topic. I'm confused; I thought cctalk allowed posts of a non-technical nature (hence the "talk" in the name), and that cctech was strictly enforced as "just the facts, ma'am". Niggle: the thread is perfectly "on-topic" since the topic of that thread has changed :) What I think you're objecting to is "relevance to pre-1990s computing". -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 28 18:07:22 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:07:22 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46843F29.4ED0E1D@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Yet another oddity discovered today: it would seem that the rotating magnetic > fixed-head disk in the Burroughs L-2000/3000/4000/5000 machines wasn't for > secondary storage (as I'd assumed), it was the primary store in place of the > core typically found in systems of the time. I bet there can't be many > machines around which had rotating store as the primary memory. On the contrary, numerous 'lower-end' machines of the 50s and early 60s used drums as the primary store, Bendix G15, IBM 650, LGP-, I'm forgetting some of the other ones. I believe it was fairly typical to use the drum for the accumulator/registers as well with more heads/track at those locations or some such scheme to get more frequent access to them per rotation. (Or do you mean there are few of those machines still surviving?) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 28 18:11:23 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:11:23 -0600 Subject: old modems (was Telephony switches) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:09:14 -0500. <51ea77730706281509x155a051er3b9e05cada4732f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730706281509x155a051er3b9e05cada4732f3 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > That's a good way to present it. I've tried explaining CIS per-hour > service to friends whose only contact with telecom tech has been a > cable modem, but they just can't grasp it. And then when you tell > them there were no pictures.....! > > (OK, there were those RLE weather maps on CIS. At 300bps, even!) No pictures? Are you kidding? CIS invented GIF and before that there was line printer art. SNOOPY.BAS -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 28 16:25:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:25:35 -0600 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <200706280859.26230.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> References: <46827153.3040007@garlic.com> <200706280859.26230.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <4684274F.7000108@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I use petrol. Do it outside, and wear gloves. IF THAT DON'T WORK ... USE MATCH AS WELL :) > Gordon From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 28 18:12:54 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:12:54 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <8415C691-B462-4154-B636-DCAE18356AF8@retrobbs.org> References: <424AE522-EB78-4C0A-BC0E-4C9D8F969EDC@retrobbs.org> <575131af0706220947o18d29aa4oeae7cd6a5c92e569@mail.gmail.com> <8415C691-B462-4154-B636-DCAE18356AF8@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <46844076.6020105@atarimuseum.com> Its great content, but does anyone have photo's of the prototype Lisa and/or Mac hardware, the OS being developed on the proto's and such, thats the kind of eye candy to totally drool all over. Curt Mark Firestone wrote: > Thank you for that. It's a highly addictive site. > > On 22 Jun 2007, at 17:47, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 22/06/07, Mark Firestone wrote: >>> What I want to know is, what did they write the original mac os on. >> >> The Lisa, in large parts, and prototype hardware. What the Mac was >> going to be underwent a lot of changes in the early days, so by the >> time that the OS was taking shape, they already had running >> prototypes. >> >> Go read http://folklore.org/index.py - it's a great site with some >> wonderful stories. Not in any terribly coherent order, but that's the >> only snag. >> >> -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: >> http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile >> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com >> Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 >> AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com >> Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 >> >> > > "Well, Steve, I think there's more than one way of looking at it. I > think it's more like we both had this rich neighbour named Xerox and I > broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had > already stolen it." > > -Bill Gates to Steve Jobs On Windows > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 28 15:29:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:29:45 -0700 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4683B7C9.25303.E34CD3@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jun 2007 at 10:36, dwight elvey wrote: > I just saw a web site with truly reduced instruction set. It had one > instruction. Subtract and branch < 0. > One can do a lot with a simple model. There is another class of single-instruction machine, called "move machines" that has actually made it into production products. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 28 15:31:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:31:06 -0700 Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. In-Reply-To: References: <4682C66C.E4762258@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <4683B81A.2603.E48960@cclist.sydex.com> Doesn anyone still have the do-it-yourself modem from Popular Electronics, called the "Pennywhistle"? --Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 18:19:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <4684308C.5080208@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <245331.95858.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> >> Are your capacitors oozing out all over the place? >You mean the motor run capacitors in the TU56? Not >yet. I guess that'll >be a joy for the future :-) Umm, were in the p/s I guess. I don't know enough about that stuff to know what subsystem they belonged to, all I remember is they were biggish. Not quite coke can sized, but biggish. >> Me too, but if you want to get technical, off the >> shelf should be taken literally (w/argument). I don't >As a silly example, I would say my lathe was an >off-the-shelf model, in >that it's one of the standard configurations. But I >doubt it's ever been >on a real shelf (it would have to be a darn strong >shelf :-)) I guess even a literal interpretation of the term is itself open to interpretation. When I did say "literally" OI I didn't mean *that* literally. Just that you could pull it off of *thinking* something and leave with it. But generally you're right, the term is usually applied in the same way as "standard configuration". Availability just might be somewhat inherent in the term also. >> I really don't see this love of colour or >> graphics.... >> >> So you're not an art lover of any sort either? >Actually, not really. I find beauty in fine >engineering, electrical and >mechanical. >And if I did care to look at a painting, I would not >be satisfied with >seeing it on a computer display. I have never seen a >computer display >with sufficient resolution or colour performance for >this sort of thing Well, it's questionable to even compare computer *art* w/real art, but it did sort of cut to the heart of the issue (and I imagined what your response turned out to be :). But I think most of us were amazed/gratified the first time we saw *photo realistic* graphics on a computer screen. The ability is (was) in itself amazing. I guess the fascination has to do with the ability to manipulate (store, alter, transmit, etc.) that sort of information. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 28 18:24:27 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:24:27 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62DE2D6C-34FF-4537-87C2-3CC4CA153F1B@neurotica.com> On Jun 28, 2007, at 6:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Including ROM BASIC that writes and reads cassette tapes? > > ROM BASIC is present on the PC, XT/Portanble and AT at least. I > have no > idea if it was fitted to any PS/2 machines. Are you sure the AT has ROM BASIC? I don't remember that at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 28 16:00:06 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:00:06 -0400 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? In-Reply-To: References: <200706251440.00873.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> <4682CD66.5050402@jbrain.com> <29B4A0E1-991B-4A20-9358-F67BAF534FB1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jun 28, 2007, at 2:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ... The current incarnation of PCB bears no >> resemblance to the version that I first used about five years >> ago...it is *fantastic* now. > > Far out... I'll have to take another look at it - two years ago, it > looked promising, but not enough for me to switch. Oh yes, it has come a long way since then. >> To bring this at least slightly on-topic, I am midway through >> doing a board layout for Chuck Dickman's RX01/02<->parallel port >> interface in gschem and PCB. > > Excellent. You beat me to it. I was just looking at that circuit > yesterday to see about cranking one out. :-) > Hmm... I still have enough through-hole parts to fill several > bathtubs, so I'm not sworn off, and I'm quite handy with manual SMT > work, but for overall cost to me, I'm still fond of through-hole where > possible. Commercial projects, of course, have different financial > parameters, but my own stuff, I frequently get 80% or more of the > parts right off my shelves. I have a lot of through-hole chips, but I have far more (tens of thousands) discrete components in SMT...and a lot of the stuff I'm designing with in recent years aren't available in through-hole packages. I find SMT to be much easier and faster than through-hole. > I'll be interested to see how your layout turns out, and, SMT or > through-hole, probably be interested in picking up one or two on a > group buy, presuming blank boards are an available option. I was > going to build at least one adapter on a perfboard, just to play with, > so a prefab PCB would be most welcome. Well I won't do anything without Chuck's permission and/or involvement, but I was toying with the idea of doing a run of boards. I have enough parts here for a dozen or so, except for the DB25s. If I do this, I could also make blank boards available. I've not gotten far enough to discuss it with Chuck yet, so...Chuck, what do you think? Would you have any problem with my making a run of boards based on your design, and selling them for a reasonable price? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 18:41:27 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:41:27 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46844727.80302@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Roger Holmes wrote: >> >> On 28 Jun, 2007, at 04:59, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >>> This thread has been a real disappointment. Almost all of the responses >>> have been about computers using standard microprocessors - off the shelf >>> components. Yes a few had non-vanilla flavored OS's, or idiotic I/O >>> schemes. A few were even painted different colors from PC Beige. >> >> Then you are not reading all the replies. > > Yet another oddity discovered today: it would seem that the rotating > magnetic fixed-head disk in the Burroughs L-2000/3000/4000/5000 machines > wasn't for secondary storage (as I'd assumed), it was the primary store > in place of the core typically found in systems of the time. I bet there > can't be many machines around which had rotating store as the primary > memory. There were plenty of drum-memory machines once upon a time. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 18:45:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:45:57 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46844835.7030705@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 27 Jun 2007 at 20:17, Jim Leonard wrote: >> >>> Could you elaborate? I've never found a single program that will work >>> on, say, my 5150 but not my 5155 or 5160... >> Including ROM BASIC that writes and reads cassette tapes? > > ROM BASIC is present on the PC, XT/Portanble and AT at least. I have no > idea if it was fitted to any PS/2 machines. Most PS/2 machines have it. Only the absolute latest ones, like the 85 and 95 don't. It was even included in some post-PS/2 machines. I think it only disappeared completely when IBM stopped using BIOS that were written specifically for each machine and moved to something "standardized". They don't have the cassette port, though, of course. Peace... Sridhar From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 18:47:02 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:47:02 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Classic HP forums?? - plotter questions Message-ID: <26117824.1183074422899.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Does the service manual contain schematics? If so, it should >be easy to find out which pins are used. I am scanning the schematics right now and will post them shortly. If somebody can take a look at them and decipher them for me, that would be GREATLY appreciated! Ashley From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 18:48:47 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:48:47 -0400 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <200706280859.26230.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> References: <46827153.3040007@garlic.com> <200706280859.26230.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <468448DF.10802@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wednesday 27 June 2007 15:16:51 jd wrote: >> So what removes the harder-than-epoxy dried out duct tape adhesive easily? >> >> The only thing I know of is soaking in hot TCTFE which has been outlawed >> since the patent expired. >> >> I've tried TFE, methanol, ethanol, IPA, MEK, acetone, xylene, turpentine, >> and various amide compounds which also remove acrylic and ABS (and skin) >> very well. >> >> But I want to just remove the adhesive, not everything else but. > > I use petrol. Do it outside, and wear gloves. You have to be careful, though. It mushy-fies some plastics. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 18:50:28 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:50:28 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <200706281502.42870.gordon@gjcp.net> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <004c01c7b984$06680350$6500a8c0@BILLING> <200706281502.42870.gordon@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <46844944.70402@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > And what of the things to keep the big *big* iron running? I'm also > interested in stuff like the power plant and environmental plant around old > kit - but I can easily see how some would see that, and the Fairlight, as > offtopic. I don't know. I wouldn't mind talking about the kind of things I needed to do to get a water-cooled IBM ES/9021 running in a residential setting. After all, I might want to get another water-cooled beast running, and I might need advice to pull it off. It isn't easy sometimes. Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 18:53:12 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706261515v106fce51jbd2fc23b992457c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <93125.44003.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Liam Proven wrote: > > --- Liam Proven wrote: > > So the > > criteria for uninteresting has become whether or > not > > it can run a particular program/s? > > It's one. If it runs all the programs from PCs, it's > a PC. It's one thing to run *a* program, quite another to run *all*. *The* PC and Apples, Commodores, etc. actually share a few if you've never noticed. > PCs are a > commonplace, mass-market item and therefore, to the > sorts of > collectors who hang out here, for example, not that > interesting. Congratulations on your promotion as spokesperson for all of us. > I'm curious as to why you're becoming so exercised > over this? I haven't even broken a sweat. If you're wondering why I reply to such rhetoric, dunno, guess it kills the day. > > > About > > > the only time a PC > > > compatible is interesting in architectural or > design > > > terms is if it's > > > something like a BBC Master 512 - a 2nd > processor in > > > an alien computer > > > connected over a CPU-to-CPU bus. Thus, there's > some > > > interest in > > > hardware PC cards for the various Macs, in the > > > add-in boards for the > > > Acorn RISC PC (I have one here, if I ever get it > > > working) and so > > > forth. > > > > What about dual or triple processor machines that > > just happent to have an 80x86? Are they > immediately > > deemed uninteresting? It seems that some boxes > w/an > > Intel processor can often be some of the rarest > pieces > > around. I can give you a list if you like and > > challenge you to find 2 or 3 others on this list > with > > one, sometimes their won't even be another single > > person. > > Depends. A Compaq SystemPro (really early SMP PC) is > still a PC, it's > just a PC that could do interesting things running > Unix. A Sequent > multi-proc server isn't a PC, 'cos it won't run PC > OSs or apps, so > it's marginally more interesting, but it's still > relatively mainstream > compared to some of the exotica that people have > been suggesting here. > So would a Sun 386i be. What's irrelevant to the thread may not be irrelevant to all discussion on this list. And most of what you mentioned in the preceding is seemingly too new to be relevant at all. > > The problem is when people utter those words it's > > really indicative of a unit with an 80x86. > > Not really, no. I've seen lots of non-PC-compatible > x86 kit; I even > wrote an article about it for Wikipedia before some > little idiot > deleted it, which I'm not happy about. Please forward it. > > Linux? We seem to be diving off topic there. And > I'll > > grant there are many OS' more interesting then > DOS. > > But if you're rendering all DOS based machines > > uninteresting, you may as well throw CP/M, TRS-DOS > and > > a number of others in with it. Remember this is a > > vintage forum. If you want real *interesting* > stuff, > > you'd typicall fare better somewhere else, > interesting > > typically signifying cutting-edge. > > Why would you discard pre-PC machines? You're > throwing the baby out > with the bathwater. Ancestors of PCs need not be PCs > themselves. ?. I wasn't the one discarding anything. It just follows that if talk of pcish/dosish stuff is off-topic due to it's uninterestingishness, other *uninteresting* topics would by necessity follow. Now, I don't find talk of Trs-dos/CP/M uninteresting. If I had, I'd simply ignore it, and keep my trap shut. > > Keep in mind there are at least a few Intel based > > boxes that won't even run DOS at all. > > You're repeating yourself... Sadly it's often necessary, albeit often futile... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 28 18:57:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:57:34 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <4682B190.15785.232A8B6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 27, 7 06:50:56 pm, Message-ID: <4683E87E.12820.1A18DDC@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jun 2007 at 23:06, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC, cassette I/O went via a software interrupt (INT 15????). The > routines in later BIOSes (XT, AT, etc) returned without doing anything, > bnt since all said BIOSes supported extension ROMs, I see no good reason > why you couldn't have a BIOS extension and a little hardware to add > cassette I/O to the later machines, if you were insane enough to want it. Now you're being pedantic, Tony! i'm not aware of any stock plug-in adapter that gives one 5150-style cassette I/O on a 5160. I might as well claim that I could run Windows XP on a 5160, given the right hardware and software additions. I stand by my answer. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 28 19:01:41 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:01:41 -0600 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <46843AF2.B4E72061@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <46843AF2.B4E72061@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <46844BE5.7040807@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Another oddball machine (I've only read about it and heard about it, never > worked on it) > > - The Nanodata QM-1, circa 1970, programmable at the nanocode level, to > quote: "was developed as a universal emulation engine for research into new > computer architectures" (Comp. Arch. and Organisation / J.P.Hayes). Perhaps > not so weird today when everbody throws CPU design into an > FPGA/CPLD, but according to the book it was the first nanoprogrammable machine. > Bitsavers is your friend , I am downloading docs now. From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 19:06:25 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:06:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Classic HP forums?? - plotter questions Message-ID: <24340285.1183075585672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >>Does the service manual contain schematics? If so, it should >>be easy to find out which pins are used. > >I am scanning the schematics right now and will post them >shortly. If somebody can take a look at them and decipher >them for me, that would be GREATLY appreciated! The interface has a 15 pin male adapter, with 8 pins on top and 7 on bottom. I have added a link to the schematics at the bottom of the HP7202A Plotter page on my web site. Go to: http://www.woffordwitch.com/HP7202A.asp and click on the link at the bottom of the page. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:07:26 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46814956.11631.273E0C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <875796.35874.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Jun 2007 at 14:48, Chris M wrote: > > > FWIW, I was in contact w/a dude in the Chicago > area > > some time ago who had been working on a mod for > the > > Tandy 2000 that would make it 100% PC compatible. > It > > involved an extensive rewrite of IO.sys, which I > had > > thought would be a big no-no, but from what you're > > saying, not really. I do believe he was hacking > > Tandy's specific DOS though. Never finished it > sadly. > > Not possible, unless you mean by "100% compatible", > compatible on a > BIOS level. That might well be possible, but it's > small comfort, > given the number of old DOS programs that twiddle > the hardware > directly. umm, well I posted some of the correspondence right here on the list some time ago. I'll do it again as the mood strikes me (and I'm able to locate it). The scheme relied on a scant bit of logic that would ring bells whenever certain IO or memory locations were accessed, and divert to a handler that could, well, handle it. I know what you're saying, the differences in the serial ports and k/b and whatnot, but the guy seemed to believe he could manage all of that. It seems at least partially credible, but I had some questions myself. Maybe it would produce only 82.5% compatibility. All I know I wanted some friggin games to run on my old T2K, and I would have been happy. Anyone remember Starflight? First thing I had loaded on my ITT Xtra XP (hybrid '286). OI Except for DOS that is! > I wonder if the 80186 in the 2K might also cause > some programs to > mistakenly assume that it's running on a 286, as the > 186 has a number > of the 286 instructions not present on an 8086. What programs determine which uP they're running on "on the fly"? Isn't that usually determined at the beginning? There was some discussion on a Usenet group regarding *slight differences* between *identical* instructions on the 8086 and 80186, causing some s/w to malfunction. This didn't have to do w/the '186's integral peripherals, but rather subtle differences in the way instructions executed on the 186 (?). As to what the problem was, or what they were even talking about, nah, I haven't a clue. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:11:59 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <0JK900GRIU06MCS2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <9257.27257.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison wrote: > I just wish someone would make a PC > keyboard without > the numeric keypad at all, just slice it off to the > right of the > cursor keys and get rid of four inches of wasted > space. They're not that uncommon. If you venture into a larger computer store there's bound to be several mini-kb's in their stash. This at least was so a few back in central NJ here. The numeric k/p is still there in actuality, but like a l/t k/b, you need to activate it. On some models this seems to happen more often then I like, but so far my Toshiba hasn't let me down (in that manner anyway...) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 28 19:17:18 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:17:18 -0500 Subject: MP3 players References: <07f501c7b993$ecedb180$6500a8c0@BILLING> <46840AEB.3070005@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <005e01c7b9e2$dccfecb0$6500a8c0@BILLING> I had written... >> I find it exceedingly difficult to consider this type of thread on-topic. To which Jim replied... > I'm confused; I thought cctalk allowed posts of a non-technical nature > (hence the "talk" in the name), and that cctech was strictly enforced as > "just the facts, ma'am". You shouldn't be confused... I've specifically addressed that more than once and I'm positive you were involved during some of those discussions. A side-comment about MP3 players isn't a problem. A sustained thread on it is. You may consider that "just the facts". Jay From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:20:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <008801c7b879$a7de8440$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <256704.27299.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > Hi, > > >....So the criteria for uninteresting has become > whether > >or not it can run a particular program/s? > > Nope, the criteria for "uninteresting" is whatever > the individual collector > deems those criteria to be for himself.... Agreed. But you and he are in significant disagreement on this point it seems. > >> But basically, a PC compatible is a PC > compatible. > >>We've all seen a thousand of them. Who cares any > more? > > > > The problem is when people utter those words > it's > >really indicative of a unit with an 80x86. > > OK, it's blatantly obvious from that comment to Liam > that you're determined > to misconstrue what he's saying at all costs. Yeah I'm real bad that way huh? So prattling on about what a *specific* individual finds interesting or not is appropriate for the list? > Goodbye, I'm not wasting any more breath.... Hey take care. A bit of advice for you on your journey though. You can get sooo much more done if you press the keys w/your fingers rather then blow on them. You must be worn out! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:28:45 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0706270518s47d2995bv4951d093dfb3b77e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jason McBrien wrote: > A couple more oddities- > > The Tandy 2000 was one of the few 80186 based > clones, and ran well behaved > MS-DOS apps, though it had somewhat oddball video > hardware, keyboard and > serial port setup. It required a custom version of > DOS, and MS even ported > Xenix to it. Make that EWB'ed (Extremely Well Behaved). It was largely BIOS and DOS function call compatible, but that was all. There was at least 1 186 mobo/puter from a company called Computer Products United. Said to be 100% compatible (not possible if they utilized the 186's onboard peripherals). The Orchid PC-Turbo release 1 used a 186. Anyone have experience with that? There is a patent document regarding this device here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4799150.html My Ampro LB/PC has a V40. Never ran much on it, but does that chip pose the same problems a *real* 186 would? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:32:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0706271141n3a2b5a9ei2a0184a641955e29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <837885.39379.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jason McBrien wrote: > I have a beastly 80386 based Banyan VNS100 server > that, I'm pretty sure, > only runs VINES. I haven't fired it up yet, but > seeing as how it only does > serial terminal connections for direct I/O, I'm > pretty sure it won't want to > run DOS. Well I guess it's a far gone conclusion that if the box doesn't have an IBM 5150 style BIOS, it's not going to run DOS. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:35:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46830C2C.3060806@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <408673.93999.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > Could you elaborate? I've never found a single > program that will work > on, say, my 5150 but not my 5155 or 5160... There were BIOS revisions. Was that likely to provide any kinks regarding compatibility? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From spc at conman.org Thu Jun 28 19:37:42 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:37:42 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> References: <01C7B1BC.CF9D29A0@MSE_D03> <467E1E2B.6030404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070629003742.GB28518@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Sridhar Ayengar once stated: > M H Stein wrote: > >If your system crashes daily or even weekly, I'd recommend that you > >find a qualified computer professional to fix it for you... > > If you write *any* code at all on Windows, you can expect to crash the > OS fairly regularly. I've written *Java* code that ran *in the VM* that > crashed the OS. And don't tell me not to write buggy code, everyone has > a bug or two in their initial revision. > > I've never crashed a UNIXy OS with anything short of a hardware problem. I have. And someone I know has also done that. My crash: Linux 2.0.39. A CGI based program I wrote (in C) had a show stopping bug that would cause the system to lock up tight. I did fix the bugs, then added some system calls to limit the amount of RAM and CPU to use to that script. I think the limiting code works, as I haven't had that problem in the three or four years since. The other person's crash: IRIX 4.0.5 on a Personal IRIS 4D-35. The sequence of events go like this: run screen, then under that, run an IRC client set to log a particular channel (in this case, an X-Files channel [1]), then detach from screen and log out. Instant kernel panic. Repeatable even. -spc (I also found an SGI C compiler bug under IRIX 4.0.5 ... ) [1] I am *not* making this up (cue spooky music). From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:40:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <062820071545.27651.4683D79A000748CD00006C0322134843739DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <341618.29603.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> > According to > >Wikipedia, DEC even ported Windows 1.0 to it. Several pseudo-compatibles had the ability to run Win 1.n. In actuality all you needed for the Tandy 2000 for instance were a set of *drivers* I believe. There wasn't the actual need for a port. Being that (IINM) Windows 1.n was written in C (like what else), does this mean it was a "well behaved" proggie (i.e relied on DOS/BIOS calls for low-level access). > Add the Otrona Attache 8:16 to that list. It used an > 8086 daughter card to run MS-DOS 2.11. It had > trouble with WordPerfect, though, as the keyboard > did not have the PC function keys. It also did PC > graphics in software, so a program like Borland's > Reflex database redrew the screen _very_ slowly when > you scrolled. The Otrona used quad-density drive, no? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 28 19:41:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:41:28 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Has anyone ever built a spherical computer? That'd be interesting... > dead easy to move around, too :-) No, but, IIRC, in the 70s, there was a personal/hobbyist computer called Sphere. Does anyone have one of these? Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:44:10 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <62DE2D6C-34FF-4537-87C2-3CC4CA153F1B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <402265.60711.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > Are you sure the AT has ROM BASIC? I don't > remember that at all. Yep. Question is what IBMer was the last to feature it... Another trivia question: did any other non-IBM *pc compatibles* have a rom based BASIC... And...what was the first computer *any* to have a rom-BASIC FURTHERMORE...what was the last computer *any* to have it? Don't ask me the answers though, frankly I haven't a clue. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:51:32 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <8229262A-9AF1-4118-8001-19B7CF2AEA85@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <930944.37886.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > > Some earlyish > > SBC's have "flash" storgage capability, RE > Robot/Vesta > > OEM-188, but that's something different I take it > > (like eeprom?). > > Is it DiskOnChip(tm)? Many SBCs can take those, > both early and > modern. I have a small pile of them somewhere. Um, maybe. I'll have to check. It was a common usage of the word (flash) back then as I recall. I'll have to check. The Vesta board used battery backed static ram to begin with... I'm curious about this pile :). Curious as to manufacturers, models, specs, etc. In particular the *early* ones :). Rock on you mad tinkerer you! ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From ats at offog.org Thu Jun 28 19:51:51 2007 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:51:51 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <62DE2D6C-34FF-4537-87C2-3CC4CA153F1B@neurotica.com> (Dave McGuire's message of "Thu\, 28 Jun 2007 19\:24\:27 -0400") References: <62DE2D6C-34FF-4537-87C2-3CC4CA153F1B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Dave McGuire writes: > Are you sure the AT has ROM BASIC? I don't remember that at all. Mine does (although I don't know if *all* of them had it). -- Adam Sampson From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 20:01:36 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:01:36 -0500 Subject: old modems (was Telephony switches) In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730706281509x155a051er3b9e05cada4732f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730706281801p2be28409o615364a889ab709f@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/07, Richard wrote: > No pictures? Are you kidding? CIS invented GIF and before that there > was line printer art. SNOOPY.BAS Fine fine....I knew I'd get called on that :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 20:10:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:10:31 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <004c01c7b984$06680350$6500a8c0@BILLING> <200706281502.42870.gordon@gjcp.net> <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 6/28/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Maybe we need some sort of map showing what we think is on- and off-topic... > > A big Venn diagram with DEC in the middle? ;-) *snort* That speck just left of center would be my spot on the chart, I'd wager. :-) -ethan From spc at conman.org Thu Jun 28 20:26:28 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:26:28 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <20070629012628.GC28518@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Billy Pettit once stated: > This thread has been a real disappointment. Almost all of the responses > have been about computers using standard microprocessors - off the shelf > components. Yes a few had non-vanilla flavored OS's, or idiotic I/O > schemes. A few were even painted different colors from PC Beige. > > Come on people: there were computers long before there were microcomputers. > And many of them were wonderfully different and creative. In college [1], one of my bosses [2] worked on an analog computer. It was this huge hulking box, maybe 10' long, 6' high, and maybe 1 or 2' deep that you programmed by plugging wires into various modules. My boss used it to simulate a chaotic system [3] and play around with it in real time. Since I was never really good with electronics, I never did "program" the thing. Another computer I had access to (but sadly, never played with to any degree---sigh) was the Maspar. It was probably similar to the Connection Machine (single instruction, multiple data) but with only 4K CPUS, not the 64K the Connection Machine came with. And you could only program the thing in Fortran (which is probably explains why I or my friends didn't do anything with it). Ah, but the Connection Machine---now *that* was an interesting architecture. 65,536 1-bit CPUs that you would program in a varient of Lisp. -spc (But I know how to use a slide ruler ... ) [1] Florida Atlantic University, just across the street from IBM [4], where the IBM PC was first built. [2] I worked for a professor and his grad-student wife. Both had degrees in Psychology, but he worked in the Math Department, while she was still in the Psychology department, then later in a research department. [3] The forumas she simulated where: xn1 = ((A * yn) + B) * xn * (1.0 - xn); yn1 = ((C * xn) + D) * yn * (1.0 - yn); A, B, C and D ranged from -4 to +4 (but for each "run" were held constant) with the x and y range restricted to 0 .. +1 and plotted. It was much faster to vary A, B, C and D using the analog computer than it was on the SGI [5]. [4] IBM is no longer in that facility. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Boca+Raton,+Florida&ie=UTF8&ll=26.390716,-80.106575&spn=0.00717,0.01134&t=k&z=17&om=1 [5] Personal IRIS 4D-35. I was the one that wrote the software to display that equation on the SGI. I still miss that system, but not the hardware problems. From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Jun 28 19:27:48 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:27:48 -0300 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment Message-ID: <01C7B9CB.497D5A40@mandr71> ------------------Original Message(s): Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:52:56 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Billy Pettit real disappointment To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4683D958.2968.16663E7 at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 28 Jun 2007 at 14:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > Yet another oddity discovered today: it would seem that the rotating magnetic > fixed-head disk in the Burroughs L-2000/3000/4000/5000 machines wasn't for > secondary storage (as I'd assumed), it was the primary store in place of the > core typically found in systems of the time. I bet there can't be many > machines around which had rotating store as the primary memory. Not at all uncommon during the 1950's. (e.g. LGP-30) In fact, the Univac SS-80 that I mentioned not only has a drum as main memory, but it's synchronized to the card reader. There were two machines in the Univac "Solid State" series; the SS-80 for conventional 80-column Hollerith cards and the SS-90 for Univac 90- column cards. The layout on the drum was different for each. The "solid state" refers not to transistors (which were used mostly to drive indicator lamps), but rather to the magnetic cores used not for memory, but for logical operations; one clock cycle per core. The master clock was driven with 6 4X150 power tetrodes. Very unusual--and very reliable for its day. Cheers, Chuck -----------------Reply: Nevertheless unusual for a machine in the L's size and price point; these were essentially desk-sized accounting computers (posting machines) used in banks and numerous small offices. The sealed fixed-head disks were indeed very reliable; secondary storage (when there was any, other than hard copy ledger cards) was on PPT, EPC and on some models mag stripe cards and up to 4 digital cassette drives. Later models (L6000 onwards) used 2102 RAMs ($800/2K). BTW, the L's predecessor (E series) did use core memory and a device called a core counter, a special core that emitted a pulse for every 10th pulse in. And to link this to another thread, I believe I still have a copy of Lunar Lander for the L series; no display of any kind, just a Selectric type golf ball printer. And speaking of golf balls, there was also a golf game for them, as well as lots of ASCII art. Here's hoping that one of the few people who have one of these (other than Bletchley) will manage to get one going one of these days... mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 28 20:30:26 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <4683E87E.12820.1A18DDC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4682B190.15785.232A8B6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 27, 7 06:50:56 pm, <4683E87E.12820.1A18DDC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070628181334.T62520@shell.lmi.net> > On 28 Jun 2007 at 23:06, Tony Duell wrote: > > why you couldn't have a BIOS extension and a little hardware to add > > cassette I/O to the later machines, if you were insane enough to want it. On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > well claim that I could run Windows XP on a 5160, given the right > hardware and software additions. Ahhh. But Tony qualified it with "if you were insane enough to want it". I had a 386 board in an XT. But, in an uncharacteristic bout of sanity, I didn't try to run Windoze. > I stand by my answer. I don't think that there is any real disagreement. It isn't likely to occur, but it is POSSIBLE to create hardware or software that is specific to any exact configuration. My former publisher wanted to negotiate an "exclusive" deal with IBM, so they demanded that I create a version of Xeno-Copy that would refuse to run on anything other than OEM IBM. An inadequately labelled copy of that "limited edition" ended up in the hands of PC-World, who used it as "the acid test of compatibility". Sales were seriously hurt by the incorrect statements that Xeno-Copy would not run on clones and compatibles. But, ... later on, I created "XenoPhobe : The acid test" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 28 20:33:45 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070628183218.Y62520@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: > Make that EWB'ed (Extremely Well Behaved). It was > largely BIOS and DOS function call compatible, but > that was all. > There was at least 1 186 mobo/puter from a company > called Computer Products United. Said to be 100% > compatible (not possible if they utilized the 186's > onboard peripherals). While it is not hard to get CLOSE, Truly 100% compatability would also require 100% copyright infringement. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 28 20:38:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:38:14 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0706270518s47d2995bv4951d093dfb3b77e@mail.gmail.com>, <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46840016.18026.1FDB625@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jun 2007 at 17:28, Chris M wrote: >> My Ampro LB/PC has a V40. Never ran much on it, but > does that chip pose the same problems a *real* 186 > would? At a maximum, no more than a V20 would in a PC. It did have several interesting features, including 8080 emulation (like the V20) and the ability to address 4MB of memory. I liked the chip--and there was at least one portable/luggable based on it. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 28 20:41:27 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:41:27 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <46846348.70FD518F@cs.ubc.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > MOST????? STANDARD????? Rubbish! IBM 7094 - 36 bits. ICT > 1301 - 48 bits. CDC 6600/7600 60 (or was it 64?) bits. CDC SC17 (not > sure exact era) - 16 bits. Elliott 903/920B/905/920C/920ATC - 18 > bits. Many of the BCD machines used 4 bit words I believe. Mid 60s > ICL 1900 - 24 bits. What used 40 bits? Some 40 bit machines from the early 50's: - von Neumann's IAS machine and it's duplicates/descendants: ILLIAC, ORDVAC, MANIAC, not sure about the JOHNIAC, - Manchester/Ferranti Mark I series Some other oddball values from that era: - BINAC: 31 bits - EDSAC: 35 bits - SWAC: 37 bits - EDVAC: 44 bits - SEAC: 45 bits ..(resent from 3:13PM, pardon this if first transmission decides to shows up) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 28 20:43:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <408673.93999.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <408673.93999.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070628183753.G62520@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: > There were BIOS revisions. Was that likely to provide > any kinks regarding compatibility? Of course! The documented BIOS function calls were kept pretty closely alike. But, for example, what was the content of BP after an Int10h call? Joe Campbell ("C Programmer's Guide To Serial Communication", etc.) was once commissioned by Hayes to work out what "Hayes compatible" was. Many Hayes modems were not. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 28 20:44:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:44:40 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <837885.39379.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0706271141n3a2b5a9ei2a0184a641955e29@mail.gmail.com>, <837885.39379.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46840198.11171.2039C34@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jun 2007 at 17:32, Chris M wrote: > Well I guess it's a far gone conclusion that if the > box doesn't have an IBM 5150 style BIOS, it's not > going to run DOS. I've got a fax-capture box that hooks between a PC printer port and a printer. It uses an 80c188, has 256K of DRAM and a 37C65-driven 1.44M floppy and, when I last looked, a PC-style BIOS. I haven't looked to see where the INT 10H and INT 16H vectors go, but if I could figure out how to do simple I/O via the parallel port, I suspect that I could make it run MS-DOS of some flavor. It uses FAT12-formatted diskettes. Runs from a 9VAC wall wart. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 28 14:13:36 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:13:36 -0600 Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:50:51 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Doug Salot writes: > > an acoustic modem built in to a (!) teak box > > Like this one? > http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/modem/ What are those big blue things I see on end in the 2nd photo? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 28 20:56:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> > Has anyone ever built a spherical computer? That'd be interesting... > dead easy to move around, too :-) "Give me a place to stand, and I'll move the world." - Archimedes 'course the system designed by Deep Thought is not truly spherical. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 21:16:54 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:16:54 -0400 Subject: old modems (was Telephony switches) In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730706281509x155a051er3b9e05cada4732f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/28/07, Richard wrote: > No pictures? Are you kidding? CIS invented GIF and before that there > was line printer art. SNOOPY.BAS I don't think GIF files extend back to 1982, but I'm not sure about RLE files. Line printer art is way cool (and much older ahn 1982), but doesn't translate well to a 40x25 char screen - I tried with some of the games in Dave Ahl's books, but some things don't translate well from 72 x N TTY out to a 1982 home computer screen. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 21:20:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:20:33 -0400 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) Message-ID: On 6/28/07, Jason T wrote: > On 6/28/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I still have my bought-new-in-1982 VIC modem that I used to use to get > > on CompuServe when I was in High School... > > The second big mistake my parents made was signing up for CompuServe > with the offer found in the VicModem box. Ohh the credit card bills > that followed! I don't know why I was ever allowed near a computer > again. Oh, yeah. I'm not sure how I survived that summer. > (OK, there were those RLE weather maps on CIS. At 300bps, even!) Hmm... I know that RLE pictures existed (before GIF), and were monochrome, not color, but I don't recall experiencing them in 1982. I'm positive that my BASIC terminal program knew nothing about them. Perhaps the VidTex client I tested knew what to do with them, but I don't remember ever viewing any on a C-64. Does anyone have any RLE files or know more about when and in what context they appeared (besides, obviously, just "on CIS"). -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 28 17:08:29 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:08:29 -0700 Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. References: Message-ID: <4684315D.B54AB00B@cs.ubc.ca> Doug Salot wrote: > > > an acoustic modem built in to a (!) teak box > > Like this one? > http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/modem/ > > Goes well with my S-100 box: > http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/s100/woody/ > > :-) Yes, they appear to be the same (I don't have mine here right now), except the box on your unit looks more like mahogany. I wonder if that Livermore Data Systems is the manufacturer, or a service bureau at Livermore Labs that used them. I'll send you the schematic when I RE it (not very difficult) if you like. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 28 17:13:48 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:13:48 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4684329B.2E6B03AC@cs.ubc.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > MOST????? STANDARD????? Rubbish! IBM 7094 - 36 bits. ICT > 1301 - 48 bits. CDC 6600/7600 60 (or was it 64?) bits. CDC SC17 (not > sure exact era) - 16 bits. Elliott 903/920B/905/920C/920ATC - 18 > bits. Many of the BCD machines used 4 bit words I believe. Mid 60s > ICL 1900 - 24 bits. What used 40 bits? Some 40 bit machines from the early 50's: - von Neumann's IAS machine and it's duplicates/descendants: ILLIAC, ORDVAC, MANIAC, not sure about the JOHNIAC, - Manchester/Ferranti Mark I series Some other oddball values from that era: - BINAC: 31 bits - EDSAC: 35 bits - SWAC: 37 bits - EDVAC: 44 bits - SEAC: 45 bits From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 21:31:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:31:31 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <1183014185.9194.22.camel@elric> Message-ID: On 6/28/07, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, there were some rather nice graphics systems for the PDP11. For > example the I2S Model 70 had a resolution of 515*512 points with, IIRC, > 24 bit colour. I have a Pertec(?) 512x512 display, but I don't know the color depth... I know we used to tap a mono monitor off of the green channel and display 16-shades-of-gray data on it where I used to work, so perhaps it's 12-bit color - not _too_ shabby to hang off of my 11/23 (where it used to live). > I suspect you could play most games on that sort of display... There are many games you could play on that I2S display you mentioned, at least if the CPU can keep up - certainly many games that do not require specialized 3D hardware. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 28 21:32:10 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:32:10 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <402265.60711.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <402265.60711.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46846F2A.1010909@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > And...what was the first computer *any* to have a > rom-BASIC The Apple (1?) must come fairly close the mark. I remember (from the web) there there was no source for the integer basic , it was all hand coded. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 21:38:10 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:38:10 -0400 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <1183014185.9194.22.camel@elric> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> <1183014185.9194.22.camel@elric> Message-ID: On 6/28/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 01:00 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I have played plenty of Doom, but I have also played uncountable hours > > of computer games in a 40x25 or 80x24 text window that are entirely > > unlike Doom. > > Get me a QBus framebuffer, and I'll port it to the PDP11. If not Doom, > then at least Wolfenstein 3D... Heh... I would love to see that. The only obstacle I envision is that the '286 can quickly twiddle segment registers to augment its 16-bit pointers, and the PDP-11 has to fiddle the MMU to get more than a 64K reach (128K with Split I&D). I'm not saying it can't be done - I do wonder how one could efficiently manage all that texture data, though. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 28 21:58:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:58:53 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070628183753.G62520@shell.lmi.net> References: <408673.93999.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com>, <20070628183753.G62520@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <468412FD.32470.2478C35@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jun 2007 at 18:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > Of course! > The documented BIOS function calls were kept pretty closely alike. > But, for example, what was the content of BP after an Int10h call? One of the more useful things to have around in this respect are the Phoenix BIOS books. Not only do they call out what gozinta and gozouta each BIOS routine, but the memory cells used by each routine and what they contained--as well as the entry point address of each routine (some early code simply did a far CALL to the BIOS routine entry point). But even that wasn't perfect. Way back whne in the PC-AT days, I wrote a little program called AT720K or something like that that allowed one to use a 96 tpi 5.25" 720K diskettes in the 5.25" 1.2MB drive under DOS without loading any drivers. It simply intercepted the BIOS INT 13H vector and reset the "double step" bit in low BIOS RAM for a particular drive. Problen was that it worked for a *lot* of "AT-compatible" BIOSes, but not all. Seems that some vendors decided to define their flags differently. BIOSes were hell back them--I still have a whole load of BIOS snapshots somewhere as debugging detritus. I used to send a customer with a BIOS problem a boot disk that grabbed the BIOS image and wrote it to floppy. The customer sent the diskette back and I had my sample to scratch my head over. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 22:31:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46840198.11171.2039C34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <198395.92299.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a fax-capture box ... I want one ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 22:36:23 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46846F2A.1010909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <85742.89606.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > > And...what was the first computer *any* to have a > > rom-BASIC > > The Apple (1?) must come fairly close the mark. > I remember (from the web) there there was no source > for the integer > basic , it was all hand coded. I had read many years ago that the first thing Jobs did was in fact write the BASIC interpreter. This totally mussed my brain up. Turns out that in the "time sharing" days it was common to hand code assembly, and present the work Friday afternoon to the, I don't know, job guy. And frankly, I hadn't until now contemplated that the A1's BASIC was written in binary. Lordy ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 22:36:53 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:36:53 -0500 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730706282036g2c631d2dwc7486e3e49a262a6@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... I know that RLE pictures existed (before GIF), and were > monochrome, not color, but I don't recall experiencing them in 1982. > I'm positive that my BASIC terminal program knew nothing about them. > Perhaps the VidTex client I tested knew what to do with them, but I > don't remember ever viewing any on a C-64. It was definitely on the 64, as it's the only computer I had (besides the Vic 20) during my CIS account's lifetime. But yeah, I doubt anyone managed to write RLE/Vidtex support for the Vic. The software I used at the time is lost to memory, other than that I had to switch to a specific term program to handle them, rather than Colorterm (?) or whatever I usually used. It was quite possibly a CIS download, if not written by them. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 22:44:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <85742.89606.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <219266.16005.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> ok, I TOLD you it mussed my brain up. To the extent that I'm able to misspell Wozniak to such a distorted degree. LOL LOL. Not that anyone picked it up... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 28 22:45:00 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:45:00 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <402265.60711.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4684803C.2B8F66B4@cs.ubc.ca> Chris M wrote: > > Another trivia question: did any other non-IBM *pc > compatibles* have a rom based BASIC... > > And...what was the first computer *any* to have a > rom-BASIC First that I'm aware of is : the HP 9830 (1972). From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 22:48:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <20070628183218.Y62520@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <608355.75534.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > While it is not hard to get CLOSE, Truly 100% > compatability would > also require 100% copyright infringement. Can you name specific examples of programs that if we're *allowed* to run would place the designer in the danger zone? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 22:59:35 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 hack Message-ID: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> any thoughts? And although he claimed the 2000 never generated a NMI, won't a parity error always do this? Irrelevant maybe cuz that's a catastrophic fault thing, not something typically encountered... Maybe he provided more details, but I'm tired... > > I was working on a mod, never completed, for the T2K > > that would make it > > after the O/S was loaded, 100% PC-compatible. > > Required 1 hardware chip, > > and a customized IO.SYS. Whereupon any DOS > > application would run on the T2K, > > even stuff doing serial-port manipulation, direct > > video-memory writes, DMA, > > etc. The one-chip mod was a PAL that monitored the address lines from the CPU, when It saw an I/O instruction in 'low' address-space, it generated an NMI (not used at all by the T2K), then the software service routine for NMI unwound the stack to find the offending I/O instruction, and re-mapped the "PC" functionality to the T2K hardware. Coupled with a timer-tick 'refresh' routine that copied data from "PC video memory" to the T2K video memory (remapping attributes, etc. as required.) The chip actually had 2 modes of operation -- NMI active, as described above, and 'NMI inactive', where it pretty much did nothing -- except listen for the 'magic words' that made it go active, that is. :) This enable/disable mode switching was necessary, to allow "T2K DOS" internals (and/or the 'sofware service routine) to access the T2K hardware directly. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 28 23:05:25 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:05:25 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <20070628183218.Y62520@shell.lmi.net> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070628183218.Y62520@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46848505.2000606@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: >> Make that EWB'ed (Extremely Well Behaved). It was >> largely BIOS and DOS function call compatible, but >> that was all. >> There was at least 1 186 mobo/puter from a company >> called Computer Products United. Said to be 100% >> compatible (not possible if they utilized the 186's >> onboard peripherals). > > While it is not hard to get CLOSE, Truly 100% compatability would > also require 100% copyright infringement. Then how was Compaq able to get around it? The original Compaq is the only compatible I've ever used that -- BASIC programs aside -- ran everything a real 5150 would, without exception. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jun 28 22:19:33 2007 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. In-Reply-To: <4684315D.B54AB00B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Richard wrote: > What are those big blue things I see on end in the 2nd photo? Daughter board connectors. That particular modem is missing its logic. On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I wonder if that Livermore Data Systems is the manufacturer, or a service > bureau at Livermore Labs that used them. LDS was the manufacturer of mine. CHM has an archived brochure from them online. But I'm sure there were other modems in wooden boxes, including a couple from Anderson Jacobson (whom I believe made the first modem). -- Doug From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Jun 28 23:33:08 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 05:33:08 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <837885.39379.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02dd01c7ba06$98321e60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> >....far gone conclusion that if the box doesn't have an >IBM 5150 style BIOS, it's not going to run DOS. You don't need an IBM compatible BIOS to run MS-DOS.... TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 28 23:37:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:37:34 -0700 Subject: Tandy 2000 hack In-Reply-To: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46842A1E.15936.2A1E3F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jun 2007 at 20:59, Chris M wrote: > The one-chip mod was a PAL that monitored the address lines from the > CPU, when It saw an I/O instruction in 'low' address-space, it generated > an NMI (not used at all by the T2K), then the software service routine > for NMI unwound the stack to find the offending I/O instruction, and > re-mapped the "PC" functionality to the T2K hardware. Coupled with a > timer-tick 'refresh' routine that copied data from "PC video memory" to > the T2K video memory (remapping attributes, etc. as > required.) I've done a bit of that myself--and it's extremely difficult to get such emulation perfect. There's always some idiot programmer who used a feature or mode that you never thought *anyone* would use. F'rinstance--how about port 61H with the "refresh" bit toggling every 50 or so microseconds? It's pretty difficult to emulate that accurately with a software trap scheme. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 28 23:52:37 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730706282036g2c631d2dwc7486e3e49a262a6@mail.gmail.com> from Jason T at "Jun 28, 7 10:36:53 pm" Message-ID: <200706290452.l5T4qbir012288@floodgap.com> > > Hmm... I know that RLE pictures existed (before GIF), and were > > monochrome, not color, but I don't recall experiencing them in 1982. > > I'm positive that my BASIC terminal program knew nothing about them. > > Perhaps the VidTex client I tested knew what to do with them, but I > > don't remember ever viewing any on a C-64. > > It was definitely on the 64, as it's the only computer I had (besides > the Vic 20) during my CIS account's lifetime. But yeah, I doubt anyone > managed to write RLE/Vidtex support for the Vic. I used CCGMS on the 64 to look at RLE images, myself. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I think you underestimate the stupidness." -------------------------------- From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 00:31:09 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:31:09 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684329B.2E6B03AC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <4684329B.2E6B03AC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4684991D.9050900@gmail.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Some other oddball values from that era: > - BINAC: 31 bits I don't know if you can call 31-bit "oddball". IBM literally made thousands upon thousands. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 28 17:20:17 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:20:17 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment Message-ID: <0JKD003ODA14NDC2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Billy Pettit real disappointment > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:02:42 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Thursday 28 June 2007 13:58:28 Jay West wrote: >> Billy wrote... >> >> >> Come on people: there were computers long before there were >> >> microcomputers. >> >> I seem to remember a recent post complaining that this list was nothing but >> minicomputer and big-iron talk, no microcomputer discussion. Apparently >> that was wrong, as now there is a complaint it's just micro talk? ;) > >It's never going to be "all things to all men", is it? Everyone has their own >little sphere of interest, and what may seem hugely off-topic to one person >might be massively relevant to another. For instance, I like the DEC >conversations, but I'm not quite so interested in HP (but I keep an eye on >them just the same). I'm surprised there's not more about the UK >microcomputer scene. I'm incredibly surprised that there's no discussion at >all of early computer-based musical equipment; we all know about EMS and the >Putney Studio I'm sure, but what about the Fairlight CMI and the Synclavier? >I'm surprised the latter wasn't mentioned during the "weird computers" >thread... > >And what of the things to keep the big *big* iron running? I'm also >interested in stuff like the power plant and environmental plant around old >kit - but I can easily see how some would see that, and the Fairlight, as >offtopic. > >Maybe we need some sort of map showing what we think is on- and off-topic... > >Gordon Well for on topic and weird Computers or IO... PDP-8 I've never seen anything else that did IO that way save for the CMOS version. TI9900 (and 990) oddball IO but loved the workspace pointer idea. Minuteman Missle guidence computer. Bizzare transistor serial machine where the fixed head disk drive served both program storage and as active registers. I wonder if there are any around and if they are operational or the mountain of manuals needed to figure it out? Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 28 14:20:24 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:20:24 -0400 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? Message-ID: <0JKD0038V1NON9E1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Linux PCB CAD software? > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:25:56 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 6/28/07, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ... The current incarnation of PCB bears no >> resemblance to the version that I first used about five years >> ago...it is *fantastic* now. > >Far out... I'll have to take another look at it - two years ago, it >looked promising, but not enough for me to switch. > >> To bring this at least slightly on-topic, I am midway through >> doing a board layout for Chuck Dickman's RX01/02<->parallel port >> interface in gschem and PCB. Where is this information on the net? Allison >Excellent. You beat me to it. I was just looking at that circuit >yesterday to see about cranking one out. > >> I did one layout for that circuit about >> a year ago, but with through-hole parts, and I'm nearing the point of >> swearing off through-hole...this board uses surface-mount components. > >Hmm... I still have enough through-hole parts to fill several >bathtubs, so I'm not sworn off, and I'm quite handy with manual SMT >work, but for overall cost to me, I'm still fond of through-hole where >possible. Commercial projects, of course, have different financial >parameters, but my own stuff, I frequently get 80% or more of the >parts right off my shelves. > >I'll be interested to see how your layout turns out, and, SMT or >through-hole, probably be interested in picking up one or two on a >group buy, presuming blank boards are an available option. I was >going to build at least one adapter on a perfboard, just to play with, >so a prefab PCB would be most welcome. > >-ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 29 01:22:18 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 02:22:18 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4683D958.2968.16663E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk>, <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> <4683D958.2968.16663E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jun 28, 2007, at 6:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The "solid state" refers not to transistors (which were used mostly > to drive indicator lamps), but rather to the magnetic cores used not > for memory, but for logical operations; one clock cycle per core. > The master clock was driven with 6 4X150 power tetrodes. > > Very unusual--and very reliable for its day. 4X150s...Are you serious? I've used ham radio transmitting amplifiers built around those tubes. Why on earth would they need that much power to drive the clock lines? Were their circuit impedances that low? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Jun 29 01:28:07 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:28:07 +0200 Subject: Old Modems and Telephony switches Message-ID: <20070629062807.261550@gmx.net> > How about early modems, anyone collect them? Not nearly as intensively as I'd like to (lack of space, for the most part), but I do have one big old (originally Telco-rented) Siemens 1200 baud leased-line modem. The usual couple of paperback-sized "modern" modems (up to 28.8 kbps, I think) - they're one of those items where people always seem to misplace the wall warts and that just as invariably don't state their power requirements on the case. Not oftenly used but kept "just in case". I've got a lead on some four-wire and X.25 ("frame relay"?) stuff from University and just yesterday I got my second ADSL modem. What would it take to set up or "simulate" their counterpart (DSLAM?) at home? Concerning other phone stuff, I do have one relay-based master/slave (or is that boss/secretary?) switch, one or two analog PBXen and one proprietary unit by Telenorma (for which I don't have the displayphones you need at least one of for programming). On the ISDN side, just two phones (one missing its local power supply too - duh), one or two PC cards and an NTBA so far. You can't even make the two phones talk to each other using just the NTBA (as long as you don't have ISDN service) afaik, so I'm looking for an ISDN PBX as well (or some other suggestions how to have some fun with that stuff). So long, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 29 01:33:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 02:33:04 -0400 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? In-Reply-To: <0JKD0038V1NON9E1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JKD0038V1NON9E1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Jun 28, 2007, at 3:20 PM, Allison wrote: >>> To bring this at least slightly on-topic, I am midway through >>> doing a board layout for Chuck Dickman's RX01/02<->parallel port >>> interface in gschem and PCB. > > Where is this information on the net? Chuck's project is detailed here: http://www.chd.dyndns.org/rx02/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 29 01:41:47 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 02:41:47 -0400 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <930944.37886.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <930944.37886.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0D7F24B8-7009-44E2-9332-B6BDDF581C18@neurotica.com> On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:51 PM, Chris M wrote: >>> Some earlyish >>> SBC's have "flash" storgage capability, RE >> Robot/Vesta >>> OEM-188, but that's something different I take it >>> (like eeprom?). >> >> Is it DiskOnChip(tm)? Many SBCs can take those, >> both early and >> modern. I have a small pile of them somewhere. > > Um, maybe. I'll have to check. It was a common usage > of the word (flash) back then as I recall. I'll have > to check. The Vesta board used battery backed static > ram to begin with... For the whole system memory, or just a protected area? > I'm curious about this pile :). Curious as to > manufacturers, models, specs, etc. In particular the > *early* ones :). Well the DiskOnChip chips I have aren't particularly early, I'm afraid...they were purchased new from a distributor a couple of years ago. I will try to find them. > Rock on you mad tinkerer you! Well to be fair, it's Chuck's hardware design, and his software...all I did was build a copy of it. I'm hoping to take it a step or two further in the near future, but everything I've done with this up to now is build what he designed. And I used a very tiny PC. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 29 01:44:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 02:44:56 -0400 Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F55357E-F777-4EDC-8277-E9CAAB3D5472@neurotica.com> On Jun 28, 2007, at 3:13 PM, Richard wrote: >>> an acoustic modem built in to a (!) teak box >> >> Like this one? >> http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/modem/ > > What are those big blue things I see on end in the 2nd photo? They look like card-edge connectors to me... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 01:45:10 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <02dd01c7ba06$98321e60$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <900916.41812.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > > >....far gone conclusion that if the box doesn't > have an > >IBM 5150 style BIOS, it's not going to run DOS. > > You don't need an IBM compatible BIOS to run > MS-DOS.... care to share an example? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Jun 29 01:47:00 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:47:00 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <4684AAE4.4010005@msm.umr.edu> Billy Pettit wrote: > What about the MicroData machines with a build your own >instructions on the fly? > > Nanodata machines had some instructions on the fly in the hardware similar to the "microcoding" of the PDP8 but on a microcode level, and a lot more complicated. Microdata's microcoded machines had a 200ns micromachine running from prom and reading a core memory which could contain any macro machines data and instructions and only required changing out of the prom firmware to change the machine entirely. But on the hardware level it didnt really do much to modify instruction behaviour, other than a register that ored over some fields. not really as powerful as what nanodata did. I know bitsaves has the nanodata manuals and the microdata manuals. I hope to get a microdata microcode emulator completed and released someday, however firmware will be a problem finding and getting out. I haven't heard of anything available for the Nanodata machines in the way of software. I heard that the Alto systems had the capability to run both pdp11 and Nova code, but discussions I have heard since seeing one during an interview at XDS back in the 70's leads me to believe that was not the case. Jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 29 02:06:13 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 00:06:13 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <4684329B.2E6B03AC@cs.ubc.ca> <4684991D.9050900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4684AF66.F6001F33@cs.ubc.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Some other oddball values from that era: > > - BINAC: 31 bits > > I don't know if you can call 31-bit "oddball". IBM literally made > thousands upon thousands. Processor? From bear at typewritten.org Fri Jun 29 02:09:57 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 00:09:57 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684991D.9050900@gmail.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <4684329B.2E6B03AC@cs.ubc.ca> <4684991D.9050900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7B371C7E-709F-4DD8-AEE6-5C6F389F6ED6@typewritten.org> On Jun 28, 2007, at 10:31 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I don't know if you can call 31-bit "oddball". IBM literally made > thousands upon thousands. Sridhar is obliquely referring to the 31 bit addressing introduced with S/370-XA. While the address space was increased from 24 bits to 31, data remained a 32 bit word just like it had been since the S/ 360. The 31 bit addressing carried over into ESA and the S/390, until zSeries made the switch to a full 64 bit architecture. ok bear From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 02:47:09 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:47:09 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684AF66.F6001F33@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <4684329B.2E6B03AC@cs.ubc.ca> <4684991D.9050900@gmail.com> <4684AF66.F6001F33@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4684B8FD.3040406@gmail.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> Some other oddball values from that era: >>> - BINAC: 31 bits >> I don't know if you can call 31-bit "oddball". IBM literally made >> thousands upon thousands. > > Processor? 370/XA, ESA/370 and ESA/390. Those aren't "processors". Those are "processor architectures" for each of which there were several implementations. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 29 02:38:33 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 02:38:33 -0500 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4683D958.2968.16663E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk>, <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> <4683D958.2968.16663E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4684B6F9.9050100@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Jun 2007 at 14:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Yet another oddity discovered today: it would seem that the rotating magnetic >> fixed-head disk in the Burroughs L-2000/3000/4000/5000 machines wasn't for >> secondary storage (as I'd assumed), it was the primary store in place of the >> core typically found in systems of the time. I bet there can't be many >> machines around which had rotating store as the primary memory. > > Not at all uncommon during the 1950's. (e.g. LGP-30) Hmm, I stand corrected :) The big 50's and 60's machines this side of the pond always seemed to come with core as the main memory; drum stores weren't uncommon, but only as 'off-line' storage. Even the smaller desk-sized stuff (BCL Susie etc.) were as far as I'm aware [1] core machines. [1] We've got a couple to pick up at some point, both with drums - but without getting hold of the hardware and manuals knowledge about BCL equipment is pretty thin on the ground! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 29 03:08:20 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:08:20 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk>, <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> <4683D958.2968.16663E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4684BDF5.803D6E48@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jun 28, 2007, at 6:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The "solid state" refers not to transistors (which were used mostly > > to drive indicator lamps), but rather to the magnetic cores used not > > for memory, but for logical operations; one clock cycle per core. > > The master clock was driven with 6 4X150 power tetrodes. > > > > Very unusual--and very reliable for its day. > > 4X150s...Are you serious? I've used ham radio transmitting > amplifiers built around those tubes. Why on earth would they need > that much power to drive the clock lines? Were their circuit > impedances that low? (I haven't studied such systems in excessive detail, but here's my understanding, FWIW.) Every core, more or less, has it's own clock-phase winding, so it's like many/most of the gates in the system have a clock input. The clock phases are what actually cause (not just trigger) the cores to flip state (depending on the state (current flow) in other windings on the core), so the clock phases are a major (principle?/only?) source of energy to the logic network, in contrast to conventional logic where the DC supplies (B+,Vcc,Vss,Vdd,..) are the principle energy source. Core logic is quite a different form of gate implementation than what we normally deal with, the static state of the network is represented by the magnetic field of the cores (not by DC voltage levels at gate outputs) and it requires AC activity into the cores to propagate changes through the network. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 29 02:56:53 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 02:56:53 -0500 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <01C7B9CB.497D5A40@mandr71> References: <01C7B9CB.497D5A40@mandr71> Message-ID: <4684BB45.4010809@yahoo.co.uk> M H Stein wrote: > Nevertheless unusual for a machine in the L's size and price point; > these were essentially desk-sized accounting computers (posting > machines) used in banks and numerous small offices. The sealed > fixed-head disks were indeed very reliable; secondary storage > (when there was any, other than hard copy ledger cards) was on > PPT, EPC and on some models mag stripe cards and up to 4 > digital cassette drives. Indeed... it surprised me as I would have thought the price of the disk mechanism to be more than that of providing core. There were certainly some SSI chips in the L4000 (next model down from our L5000 I presume), but presumably the timeframe is just before IC memory chips came on the scene. > BTW, the L's predecessor (E series) did use core memory and a > device called a core counter, a special core that emitted a pulse > for every 10th pulse in. Interesting... any idea if the use of core was dumped in favour of rotating memory on cost grounds, or reliability? (Or something else!) > And to link this to another thread, I believe I still have a copy of > Lunar Lander for the L series; no display of any kind, just a > Selectric type golf ball printer. And speaking of golf balls, there > was also a golf game for them, as well as lots of ASCII art. Oh wow. Now a copy of any of that would be rather nice. Our machine's in reasonable cosmetic condition [1] and seems to have been stored nicely all its life, but nobody's ever taken a good look at getting it operational again [2] because there wasn't the expectation that it could do anything that might hold public attention. [1] Some of the indicators have seen better days - seems to be a case of natural material decay rather than some sort of accidental damage. [2] Assuming it's not operational now - but as we all know, blindly switching a machine on without checking things in isolation first is never a smart move! Funnily enough by coincidence I had my hands on a Selectric just yesterday too. I believe we have at least the tape punch to go with the system, and possibly the reader too (having found the sales brochures, one of the things I want to do tomorrow is go hunt those out so they can be kept with the machine itself; it was only looking at the brochures which made me think that there was a connection) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 29 03:03:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:03:17 -0500 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <46846348.70FD518F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <46846348.70FD518F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4684BCC5.1080808@yahoo.co.uk> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Some 40 bit machines from the early 50's: > > - Manchester/Ferranti Mark I series We took delivery of a logic door and Williams Tube from the Mk.1 yesterday. It was sad to hear that there was a complete machine surviving into the 70s though (from where these bits came), which was cut up into pieces :-( From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 29 03:06:23 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:06:23 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070629012628.GC28518@brevard.conman.org> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <20070629012628.GC28518@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4684BD7F.7050402@yahoo.co.uk> Sean Conner wrote: > In college [1], one of my bosses [2] worked on an analog computer. It was > this huge hulking box, maybe 10' long, 6' high, and maybe 1 or 2' deep that > you programmed by plugging wires into various modules. Or as someone said to me yesterday about the TR-48, it's just like a large kids' electronics kit :-) > Ah, but the Connection Machine---now *that* was an interesting > architecture. 65,536 1-bit CPUs that you would program in a varient of > Lisp. Perhaps one of the most impressive-looking machines ever made, too. I'd love to see one working one day (but as has been discussed on here in the past, I don't think there are any survivors this side of the pond) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 29 03:14:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 03:14:21 -0500 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >> Has anyone ever built a spherical computer? That'd be interesting... >> dead easy to move around, too :-) > > "Give me a place to stand, and I'll move the world." - Archimedes > > 'course the system designed by Deep Thought is not truly spherical. Indeed - oblate spheroids don't count :-) I was just looking at some mainframe and supercomputer type stuff the other day and it got me thinking how weirdly-shaped some of them were (hence the sarcastic sphere comment!) There was one system in which the basic building blocks were cabinets in either an 'X' or 'Y' configuration, and different sizes of system could be made by bolting these basic blocks together in various topologies. I don't recall the manufacturer now (although I think they were US-based), but it sure was more interesting than rows of rectangular cabs :-) From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 29 03:08:18 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:08:18 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:17:30 BST." Message-ID: <200706290808.JAA10063@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > Of course. I don't think anyone would expect to be able to run a > Doom-like gape, or even a space invaders type of arcade came on a machine > with a 1-line display like the HP9830. But that's a far cry from saying > that it's impossible to play games on an HP9830. There were games, of a sort, for the Sinclair Mk14 with a 1-line 9-digit calculator display: "Moon Landing" - just a throttle control and display of altitude/velocity and fuel. "Duck Shoot" - "ducks" cross left to right and you have to hit the key corresponding to it's position. "Mastermind" - some kind of guessing game. "Silver Dollar" - Machine plays against you moving "silver dollars" along a track, first player unable to move loses. Shows what you can do with a 1-line 7-seg display and 256 bytes of ram. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 03:55:53 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:55:53 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Has anyone ever built a spherical computer? That'd be interesting... >>> dead easy to move around, too :-) >> >> "Give me a place to stand, and I'll move the world." - Archimedes >> >> 'course the system designed by Deep Thought is not truly spherical. > > Indeed - oblate spheroids don't count :-) > > I was just looking at some mainframe and supercomputer type stuff the > other day and it got me thinking how weirdly-shaped some of them were > (hence the sarcastic sphere comment!) > > There was one system in which the basic building blocks were cabinets in > either an 'X' or 'Y' configuration, and different sizes of system could > be made by bolting these basic blocks together in various topologies. I > don't recall the manufacturer now (although I think they were US-based), > but it sure was more interesting than rows of rectangular cabs :-) I thing it would probably be interesting to make a computer where the building blocks would be tetrahedra, and you would bolt them together in 3D configurations. Can you make an icosahedron out of tetrahedra? Peace... Sridhar From cc at corti-net.de Fri Jun 29 04:06:02 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:06:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: "Oddball" In-Reply-To: <4684991D.9050900@gmail.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <4684329B.2E6B03AC@cs.ubc.ca> <4684991D.9050900@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Some other oddball values from that era: >> - BINAC: 31 bits > > I don't know if you can call 31-bit "oddball". IBM literally made thousands > upon thousands. And don't forget the LGP-30 (450 built in total, 45 built in Germany) and compatibles (LGP-21, ...). Its word size is officially 32 bits, with only 31 bits usable (only the accumulator can hold all 32 bits, once stored on the drum the LSB is forced to zero). So I call it a 31-1/2 bit machine. And its design is marvelous, a CPU with all four basic arithmetic functions (fixed point) that contains only 15 flip-flops. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Fri Jun 29 04:20:36 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:20:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <4684B6F9.9050100@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk>, <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> <4683D958.2968.16663E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4684B6F9.9050100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, I stand corrected :) The big 50's and 60's machines this side of the > pond always seemed to come with core as the main memory; drum stores weren't > uncommon, but only as 'off-line' storage. Even the smaller desk-sized stuff > (BCL Susie etc.) were as far as I'm aware [1] core machines. The big 50s machines were mostly drum/disk based as core memory wasn't available. See IBM 650, Zuse Z22, Ferranti Pegasus etc. > [1] We've got a couple to pick up at some point, both with drums - but > without getting hold of the hardware and manuals knowledge about BCL > equipment is pretty thin on the ground! Old, especially desk-sized drum computers are quite easy to understand if you spend some time investigating [I know that of experience with our LGP-30s] Christian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 29 04:11:11 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:11:11 -0500 Subject: Seagate ST1480N termpwr jumpers Message-ID: <4684CCAF.7020303@yahoo.co.uk> Does anyone happen to have a reference for the termpwr jumpers on a Seagate ST1480N 425MB SCSI disk? The only online reference I've found so far is set out to use the old DOS font with line drawing characters in it, and nothing I've been able to find in Firefox (or elsewhere in Linux) has been able to display it properly :-( I know the termpwr jumpers are 7 and 8 down the left side of the drive, but deciphering the characters used in the corresponding truth table is proving tricky. (I've having another look at the NeXT Cube; I assume that the drive is currently expecting termpwr from the bus, but the NeXT isn't supplying it) ta J. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 04:28:23 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 05:28:23 -0400 Subject: "Oddball" In-Reply-To: References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> <4684329B.2E6B03AC@cs.ubc.ca> <4684991D.9050900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4684D0B7.2050507@gmail.com> Christian Corti wrote: >>> Some other oddball values from that era: >>> - BINAC: 31 bits >> >> I don't know if you can call 31-bit "oddball". IBM literally made >> thousands upon thousands. > > And don't forget the LGP-30 (450 built in total, 45 built in Germany) > and compatibles (LGP-21, ...). Its word size is officially 32 bits, with > only 31 bits usable (only the accumulator can hold all 32 bits, once > stored on the drum the LSB is forced to zero). So I call it a 31-1/2 bit > machine. And its design is marvelous, a CPU with all four basic > arithmetic functions (fixed point) that contains only 15 flip-flops. Well, even the IBM machines had a full 32-bits per data word, but addresses were 31-bits. In any case, the LGP-30 (and LGP-21) were far (25+ years?) earlier than the 370-XA machines. If memory serves, IBM didn't come out with 370-XA until the early to mid '80s. But I wasn't kidding when I said they sold thousands upon thousands. Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jun 29 06:39:03 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:39:03 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST1480N termpwr jumpers In-Reply-To: <4684CCAF.7020303@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4684CCAF.7020303@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4684EF57.4010801@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/06/2007 10:11, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Does anyone happen to have a reference for the termpwr jumpers on a > Seagate ST1480N 425MB SCSI disk? > The only online reference I've found so far is set out to use the old > DOS font with line drawing characters in it, and nothing I've been able > to find in Firefox (or elsewhere in Linux) has been able to display it > properly :-( You need to get a copy of the linedrawing TrueType font. There used to be one on Seagate's pages along with the drive data, and Microsoft have one that's sometimes supplied with Word. Anyway, to answer the immediate question, the table means this: A no jumper on upper/lower pin position 7 jumper between upper and lower position 8 -- drive supplies own termpwr B jumper between upper and lower pin position 7 no jumper on upper/lower position 8 -- drive supplies termpwr to bus C no jumper on lower pin position 7 or lower position 8 jumper between upper position 7 and upper position 8 -- bus supplies termpwr to drive -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Jun 29 06:49:45 2007 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:49:45 +0100 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment (Vol46 Iss78 M16) References: <200706290004.l5T03jYe045238@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001201c7ba43$9751e3d0$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: > Not enough UK list members, I suspect. I don't know where they all are... > not > on uk.comp.vintage, that's for sure. Maybe there are just more > vendor-specific > mailing lists for the UK scene [1] than there are for the US or something. > Newbie here Uk based. > A big Venn diagram with DEC in the middle? ;-) > I'd go for that Mike Hatch Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) From cheri-post at web.de Fri Jun 29 06:48:39 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:48:39 +0200 Subject: Seagate ST1480N termpwr jumpers Message-ID: <2071005694@web.de> Jules, have a look at the biggest database for harddisk drives: www.pc-disk.de All you have to do is to click on "producer", then on the left, you can navigate down to the Seagate drives. For the ST1480N, there is the layout of the PCB and the jumper definitions where the termination power is pointed out as well. Regards, Pierre > > > Does anyone happen to have a reference for the termpwr jumpers on a Seagate > ST1480N 425MB SCSI disk? > > The only online reference I've found so far is set out to use the old DOS font > with line drawing characters in it, and nothing I've been able to find in > Firefox (or elsewhere in Linux) has been able to display it properly :-( > > I know the termpwr jumpers are 7 and 8 down the left side of the drive, but > deciphering the characters used in the corresponding truth table is proving > tricky. > > (I've having another look at the NeXT Cube; I assume that the drive is > currently expecting termpwr from the bus, but the NeXT isn't supplying it) > > > ta > > J. > _______________________________________________________________________ Jetzt neu! Sch?tzen Sie Ihren PC mit McAfee und WEB.DE. 3 Monate kostenlos testen. http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/startseite/?mc=022220 From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Jun 29 07:33:22 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:33:22 -0400 Subject: Old Telephony Switches - Available/Free In-Reply-To: <200706290658.l5T6vE9S057247@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070629082754.013b9d40@mail.degnanco.net> Speaking of old telephony switches...my building seems to have been once a telephone relay substation. If anyone is really interested in having this stuff, let me know privately and I can take pictures, etc. There are a lot of old component cards, wires, wall boxes, etc. "Western Electric" etc. in the basement. I do not know much about this stuff. Looks like it was last upgraded in the mid 70's. Location - Wilmington, Delaware USA Bill From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 29 07:42:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:42:19 -0500 Subject: Seagate ST1480N termpwr jumpers In-Reply-To: <2071005694@web.de> References: <2071005694@web.de> Message-ID: <4684FE2B.3080101@yahoo.co.uk> Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Jules, > > have a look at the biggest database for harddisk drives: www.pc-disk.de Thanks - bookmarked for future reference! Typically these sites claiming to offer hard disk parameters just seem to have the drive geometry and don't bother listing the jumper information (which is strange - I can't remember needing to explicitly set geometry on a drive made in the last 20 years or so, yet jumper info's something that people presumably still need reasonably often) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 29 07:51:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:51:01 -0500 Subject: Seagate ST1480N termpwr jumpers In-Reply-To: <4684EF57.4010801@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4684CCAF.7020303@yahoo.co.uk> <4684EF57.4010801@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46850035.3020602@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 29/06/2007 10:11, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Does anyone happen to have a reference for the termpwr jumpers on a >> Seagate ST1480N 425MB SCSI disk? > >> The only online reference I've found so far is set out to use the old >> DOS font with line drawing characters in it, and nothing I've been >> able to find in Firefox (or elsewhere in Linux) has been able to >> display it properly :-( > > You need to get a copy of the linedrawing TrueType font. There used to > be one on Seagate's pages along with the drive data, and Microsoft have > one that's sometimes supplied with Word. Yes, I'm surprised that Openoffice at least didn't come with something - but then I'm also surprised that Firefox doesn't seem to have the ability either :( > Anyway, to answer the immediate question, the table means this: > > A no jumper on upper/lower pin position 7 > jumper between upper and lower position 8 > -- drive supplies own termpwr > > B jumper between upper and lower pin position 7 > no jumper on upper/lower position 8 > -- drive supplies termpwr to bus > > C no jumper on lower pin position 7 or lower position 8 > jumper between upper position 7 and upper position 8 > -- bus supplies termpwr to drive Huzzah - that works. Cube is happy again and now running with a (hopefully) reliable drive - although it also wanted the external bus connector terminating, contrary to every Slab setup I've seen. I'm not sure what NeXT's official docs say on that; I wonder if Slabs auto-terminate but the Cube doesn't - or maybe all the Slabs I've seen haven't been set up properly, but it's one of those things that can be 'got away with' :-) From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Fri Jun 29 09:19:41 2007 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (pdp11_70 ) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:19:41 -0700 Subject: LISA Message-ID: <200706290719.AA425197700@mail.retrobbs.org> So... I've got *the* lisa emulator set up and can (at last) play with that computer that I wanted when I was 12 (I still remember seeing one at Computer Pro and being amazed!) So, does anyone know what happened to that 90,000+ lines of (Pascal) Source Code for LOS? It would sure been neet to be able to look at it. It would be even more need to write a TCP/IP stack for the thing, and some how hook up a scsi asanti ethernet adapter to a real Lisa and put it on the web without using Macworks. But as I don't have any of the real equipment... I guess that's just a pipe dream. Wow. mark -- "Well, Steve, I think there's more than one way of looking at it. I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbour named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it." -Bill Gates to Steve Jobs On Windows -- From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 29 08:57:59 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:57:59 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46844835.7030705@gmail.com> References: <46844835.7030705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46850FE7.7020102@atarimuseum.com> I only saw the cassette ports (next to the keyboard ports) on the very early IBM PC's which were generally the ones that were shipping I think with only 64K installed. Then the later shipped IBM PC's with fully installed memory no longer had the cassette ports (some of the cases had a plastic cover over the port, then the cases completed had the cassette port hole omitted completely and that was it on those... Curt Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> On 27 Jun 2007 at 20:17, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> >>>> Could you elaborate? I've never found a single program that will >>>> work on, say, my 5150 but not my 5155 or 5160... >>> Including ROM BASIC that writes and reads cassette tapes? >> >> ROM BASIC is present on the PC, XT/Portanble and AT at least. I have >> no idea if it was fitted to any PS/2 machines. > > Most PS/2 machines have it. Only the absolute latest ones, like the > 85 and 95 don't. It was even included in some post-PS/2 machines. I > think it only disappeared completely when IBM stopped using BIOS that > were written specifically for each machine and moved to something > "standardized". > > They don't have the cassette port, though, of course. > > Peace... Sridhar > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 29 08:59:12 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:59:12 -0500 Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. In-Reply-To: References: <4684315D.B54AB00B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070629085818.06e825e8@mail> At 10:19 PM 6/28/2007, Doug Salot wrote: >But I'm sure there were other modems in wooden boxes, including a couple >from Anderson Jacobson (whom I believe made the first modem). I've got one of those. There's a little magic marker on the outside I need to remove, but with all that wood and brushed aluminum, it sure is retro purty. - John From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 29 09:02:19 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:02:19 -0400 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> I started out with an Acoustic coupler (Atari 830) modem when I first started calling CIS and BBS' If someone knocked on my door I'd get this instant long string of garbage and if I was really lucky and the knock wasn't too long or too loud I might stay connected, what a pain in the rear!!! Yeah I remember those first painful CIS bills, nothing like $10.95 off-peak and $15.95 peak connection charges!!! ;-) Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/28/07, Jason T wrote: >> On 6/28/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> > I still have my bought-new-in-1982 VIC modem that I used to use to get >> > on CompuServe when I was in High School... >> >> The second big mistake my parents made was signing up for CompuServe >> with the offer found in the VicModem box. Ohh the credit card bills >> that followed! I don't know why I was ever allowed near a computer >> again. > > Oh, yeah. I'm not sure how I survived that summer. > >> (OK, there were those RLE weather maps on CIS. At 300bps, even!) > > Hmm... I know that RLE pictures existed (before GIF), and were > monochrome, not color, but I don't recall experiencing them in 1982. > I'm positive that my BASIC terminal program knew nothing about them. > Perhaps the VidTex client I tested knew what to do with them, but I > don't remember ever viewing any on a C-64. > > Does anyone have any RLE files or know more about when and in what > context they appeared (besides, obviously, just "on CIS"). > > -ethan > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 09:27:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:27:00 -0400 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) In-Reply-To: <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> References: <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 6/29/07, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I started out with an Acoustic coupler (Atari 830) modem when I first > started calling CIS and BBS' If someone knocked on my door I'd get > this instant long string of garbage and if I was really lucky and the > knock wasn't too long or too loud I might stay connected, what a pain in > the rear!!! I was lucky to not have to resort to an acoustic coupler in the 300 bps days - the VICmodem, for those that don't know it, attaches to the user port of a VIC-20 or C-64, is fed 300 bps data through either a 6522 (VIA) or 6526 (CIA) bit-banged TTL-levels, and converts to and from handset voltages and is attached to a regular phone via the coiled handset cable. No Hayes Compatibility here - you picked up the phone, dialed the BBS/CIS, waited for the answer tone, then moved the cable from the handset to the waiting VICmodem. Call-waiting, on the other hand, _would_ drop the connection. :-( You then had to scramble to remigrate the cord to the handset and take the call, since your session was dead anyway. > Yeah I remember those first painful CIS bills, nothing > like $10.95 off-peak and $15.95 peak connection charges!!! ;-) I never paid that - I *never* dialed peak, and I never had a 1200 bps modem when I was calling CIS, so I recall the $5.00-$6.00 off-peak charges. I didn't get a 1200 bps modem until 1984 when my employer loaned me a Ventel (still have it). It was in a rounded vacu-formed wrinkled black plastic shell with a row of LEDs across the front. You double-tapped the RETURN key to wake it up, then interacted with it in a human-friendly manner, entirely unlike AT commands and a Hayes Modem. The only thing that was really strange about it that I can recall was that the phone connection came out a DA15S connector and you had to not lose the DA15P-to- RJ11 cable or you were hosed. Solid performing modem, though. Great for sticking on a VT100. Probably less great for attaching to a computer for dialout because of the proprietary dialling CLI interface. I think the standard uucp dialler supported it, though. I'm thinking back now, and except for a trip to NYC in 2001 when I could only get connected to work from the hotel over a modem, I don't think I've used one in nearly 10 years. Out where my Farm is got cable modem service a while back, but when I first moved in, I was too far from the CO to even get DSL (plenty close enough as the crow flies, but thousands of feet too far as the cable goes). Those phone lines (which haven't been upgraded AFAIK) were so bad, I couldn't get as good as 19.2K with a 56K modem. Good riddance. -ethan From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 29 09:30:53 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:30:53 -0400 Subject: Old Modems and Telephony switches In-Reply-To: <20070629062807.261550@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200706291430.l5TEUvSX065016@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:28:07 +0200, Arno Kletzander wrote: >On the ISDN side, just two phones (one missing its local power supply too - duh), one or two PC cards and an NTBA so far. You can't even make the two phones talk to each other using just the NTBA (as long as you don't have ISDN service) afaik, so I'm looking for an ISDN PBX as well (or some other suggestions how to have some fun with that stuff). Somewhere in storage I have an old Adtran box that takes a T1 (pri) line in and breaks out a bunch of POTs ports and 2 ISDN BRI lines that will source other equiptment. I know the MAX 4004 boxes will source a PRI out on the second channel if you want to to put one inline with a PBX and skim some channels off the top for data or dialup. At one point in time I had a ISDN PRI split out to 7 pots lines, 8 private dialup lines, and a 512k data channel with a class c address block (256 IP addresses) assigned before I gave up the office about 5 years back. later Bob From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 09:52:04 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:52:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: HP7202A Schematics questions Message-ID: <22303679.1183128724321.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >The interface has a 15 pin male adapter, with >8 pins on top and 7 on bottom. > >I have added a link to the schematics at the bottom of >the HP7202A Plotter page on my web site. > >Go to: > >http://www.woffordwitch.com/HP7202A.asp > >and click on the link at the bottom of the page. Can someone help me understand these old HP schematics? I see the 15 adapter pins shown at the top right of the page, and see where one of the pins (# 5) appears to go to something labeled EIA IN on the "Logic Mother Board" section. Some pins (3, 4, and 6) appear to not be connected to anything. Most of the others seem to go to the Analog Mother Board, but I am not sure how to follow them from there. What would be nice is if I could get enough of an understanding from this schematic to figure out how to construct both a 20mA adapter and an EIA (RS232) adapter, or an adapter that has the 15 pin connector on one end, and two connectors on the other end (one for 20mA and one for EIA). Thanks, Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 10:05:18 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:05:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: HP7202A Schematics questions Message-ID: <18793922.1183129518510.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >>The interface has a 15 pin male adapter, with >>8 pins on top and 7 on bottom. >> >>I have added a link to the schematics at the bottom of >>the HP7202A Plotter page on my web site. >> >>Go to: >> >>http://www.woffordwitch.com/HP7202A.asp >> >>and click on the link at the bottom of the page. > >Can someone help me understand these old HP schematics? >I see the 15 adapter pins shown at the top right of the >page, and see where one of the pins (# 5) appears to go >to something labeled EIA IN on the "Logic Mother Board" >section. Some pins (3, 4, and 6) appear to not be >connected to anything. Most of the others seem to go >to the Analog Mother Board, but I am not sure how to >follow them from there. What would be nice is if I >could get enough of an understanding from this schematic >to figure out how to construct both a 20mA adapter and >an EIA (RS232) adapter, or an adapter that has the 15 >pin connector on one end, and two connectors on the >other end (one for 20mA and one for EIA). I apologize for posting an incorrect link to the schematics. They can be found at the bottom of the following page: http://www.woffordwitch.com/HP7202.asp Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 29 09:13:47 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:13:47 -0500 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070629090137.06e81168@mail> At 09:20 PM 6/28/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Hmm... I know that RLE pictures existed (before GIF), and were >monochrome, not color, but I don't recall experiencing them in 1982. >I'm positive that my BASIC terminal program knew nothing about them. >Perhaps the VidTex client I tested knew what to do with them, but I >don't remember ever viewing any on a C-64. >Does anyone have any RLE files or know more about when and in what >context they appeared (besides, obviously, just "on CIS"). Before researching, my memory was that they were first used for CIS weather maps. In my CCC archive, I found a '98 message between Merch and I that mentioned RLE files stored in his Tandy 600 archive, so I bet the Model 100 and CoCo people have archives, as they certainly have decoders. The Wikipedia entry for Compuserve isn't specific about when they released RLE. The run-length-encoding entry doesn't even mention it. Maybe I'll put it on my to-do list. For perspective, "medium" res was 128 x 96, "high" was 256 x 192. I was surprised to see that the O'Reilly Encyclopedia of Graphics File Formats (of which I was contributor and editor to the second edition) didn't even mention CIS RLE files. RLE is a common technique, so there's a chapter about RLE in general. You can certainly google a number of other references to RLE-based file formats from that decade (Utah Raster Toolkit, Wavefront .rla, etc.). GIF dates to 1987. I would guess RLE was at least three years older. - John From vrs at msn.com Fri Jun 29 10:19:42 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:19:42 -0700 Subject: HP7202A Schematics questions References: <22303679.1183128724321.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <08d101c7ba60$eb80c4e0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Ashley Carder" >>http://www.woffordwitch.com/HP7202A.asp >> >>and click on the link at the bottom of the page. > > Can someone help me understand these old HP schematics? I can't see them. I get "The page cannot be found". Vince From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 10:44:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:44:36 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684BDF5.803D6E48@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4684BDF5.803D6E48@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4684C674.428.1C6A2B@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jun 2007 at 1:08, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Core logic is quite a different form of gate implementation than what we > normally deal with, the static state of the network is represented by the > magnetic field of the cores (not by DC voltage levels at gate outputs) and it > requires AC activity into the cores to propagate changes through the network. Bitsavers has the operations manual and complete schematics for the SS-80 with a really good explanation of how these things work. If you're used to semiconductor logic, core logic is *very* different. If you consider other machines of the time and that the entire logic power came from the clock signal, 6 4X150s (at what, 250W plate dissipation per the each?) wasn't bad at all. It'd be fun to see if the large cores for this type of logic could be obtained to experiment with this logic type again. And let's not forget the Packard-Bell 250, whose memory consisted of magnetostrictive delay lines and a bit-serial ALU. I think it had a word length of 22 bits. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 29 10:44:35 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:44:35 -0700 Subject: LISA Message-ID: <468528E3.4070503@bitsavers.org> > So, does anyone know what happened to that 90,000+ lines of (Pascal) Source Code for LOS? Last time I saw it, it was on a Lisa in the source control library at Apple > It would sure been neet to be able to look at it. I agree. The Computer History Museum is willing to archive it. All you have to do is ask Steve to release it. I'm sure he has nothing better to do today. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 11:09:09 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:09:09 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684C674.428.1C6A2B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4684BDF5.803D6E48@cs.ubc.ca> <4684C674.428.1C6A2B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > 6 4X150s (at what, 250W plate > dissipation per the each?) 150, thus the *150. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 29 11:14:43 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:14:43 -0600 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) In-Reply-To: <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> References: <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <46852FF3.6070505@jetnet.ab.ca> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I started out with an Acoustic coupler (Atari 830) modem when I first > started calling CIS and BBS' If someone knocked on my door I'd get > this instant long string of garbage and if I was really lucky and the > knock wasn't too long or too loud I might stay connected, what a pain in > the rear!!! Yeah I remember those first painful CIS bills, nothing > like $10.95 off-peak and $15.95 peak connection charges!!! ;-) I have Never had that fun! With a $1.00 a minute long distance rates I never did connect to many sites when I had my Acoustic Coupler. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 29 11:39:19 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:39:19 -0700 Subject: Drum vs. Core References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk>, <4684119B.80706@yahoo.co.uk> <4683D958.2968.16663E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4684B6F9.9050100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <468535B7.67DBBF44@cs.ubc.ca> Christian Corti wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Hmm, I stand corrected :) The big 50's and 60's machines this side of the > > pond always seemed to come with core as the main memory; drum stores weren't > > uncommon, but only as 'off-line' storage. Even the smaller desk-sized stuff > > (BCL Susie etc.) were as far as I'm aware [1] core machines. > > The big 50s machines were mostly drum/disk based as core memory wasn't > available. See IBM 650, Zuse Z22, Ferranti Pegasus etc. Core was available by 1952, most of the big machines after this date (on this side of the pond at least) were core based. The IBM 650 was actually one of the smaller machines, at least inasmuch as IBM was already making much larger machines (the 700 series). From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 11:40:52 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:40:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP7202A Schematics questions Message-ID: <22389439.1183135252999.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >>>http://www.woffordwitch.com/HP7202A.asp >>> >>>and click on the link at the bottom of the page. >> >> Can someone help me understand these old HP schematics? > >I can't see them. I get "The page cannot be found". > > Vince Sorry, the first time I mis-typed the URL. Here's the correct one: http://www.woffordwitch.com/HP7202.asp Ashley From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 29 11:59:48 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:59:48 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:45:10 -0700. <900916.41812.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <900916.41812.qm at web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > > --- Ensor wrote: > > You don't need an IBM compatible BIOS to run > > MS-DOS.... > > care to share an example? Apricot PCs. They were MS-DOS compatible, but not BIOS compatible. Its the thing that effectively killed them as competitors in the US marketplace, even if they had some good ideas compared to other PC clones at the time. The lack of BIOS compatability is what prevented them from running lots of PC software (particularly games, thus killing it for being a "home computer"). They were not 100% IBM PC compatible as a result. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Fri Jun 29 12:03:45 2007 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:03:45 -0600 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? References: <0JKD0038V1NON9E1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <01ac01c7ba6f$759936e0$2084b044@netgear> Before leaving the RX01 topic, note that Chuck's design was implemented using the Cadsoft Eagle years ago and is available at: http://www.wildharecomputers.com/download/rx0x/rx01-b.zip A minor update is at: http://www.wildharecomputers.com/download/rx0x/rx01-d.zip The idea of putting an SX-28 processor in control of the communications and using a native USB interface resulted in the (untested) derivative design at: http://www.wildharecomputers.com/download/rx0x/rx-usb.zip and notes and general comments for these designs are at: http://www.wildharecomputers.com/download/rx0x/notes.txt And I would seriously consider Diptrace (www.diptrace.com) if I had to look at CAD software today, especially compared to Eagle's interface. Okay, I focus on Data General Novas, Eclipses and MVs, but I teethed on PDP-8s before 1969... ;-) Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 12:33 AM Subject: Re: Linux PCB CAD software? > On Jun 28, 2007, at 3:20 PM, Allison wrote: >>>> To bring this at least slightly on-topic, I am midway through >>>> doing a board layout for Chuck Dickman's RX01/02<->parallel port >>>> interface in gschem and PCB. >> >> Where is this information on the net? > > Chuck's project is detailed here: http://www.chd.dyndns.org/rx02/ > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 12:12:26 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:12:26 -0400 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) In-Reply-To: <46852FF3.6070505@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> <46852FF3.6070505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 6/29/07, woodelf wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Yeah I remember those first painful CIS bills, nothing > > like $10.95 off-peak and $15.95 peak connection charges!!! ;-) > > I have Never had that fun! With a $1.00 a minute long distance rates > I never did connect to many sites when I had my Acoustic Coupler. I grew up 6 miles from the CompuServe building, almost close enough to use tin cans and string ;-) Plenty of toll-free modeming around, but only free to BBSes - if you could get through. Best time was whenever "Star Trek" was on TV (18:00-19:00 in Columbus in 1982, IIRC). $1.00 a minute seems pricy to me for long distance in the 1980s - at least for off-peak. Were Canadian rates that bad everywhere, or just around you? -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 29 12:16:34 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:16:34 -0700 Subject: HP7202A Schematics questions References: <22303679.1183128724321.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <46853E72.A09EA13B@cs.ubc.ca> Ashley Carder wrote: > > >The interface has a 15 pin male adapter, with > >8 pins on top and 7 on bottom. > > > >I have added a link to the schematics at the bottom of > >the HP7202A Plotter page on my web site. > > > >Go to: > > > >http://www.woffordwitch.com/HP7202A.asp > > > >and click on the link at the bottom of the page. > > Can someone help me understand these old HP schematics? > I see the 15 adapter pins shown at the top right of the > page, and see where one of the pins (# 5) appears to go > to something labeled EIA IN on the "Logic Mother Board" > section. Some pins (3, 4, and 6) appear to not be > connected to anything. Most of the others seem to go > to the Analog Mother Board, but I am not sure how to > follow them from there. What would be nice is if I > could get enough of an understanding from this schematic > to figure out how to construct both a 20mA adapter and > an EIA (RS232) adapter, or an adapter that has the 15 > pin connector on one end, and two connectors on the > other end (one for 20mA and one for EIA). I can see the schematic for the module interconnect page now (I got "page not found" earlier as well), but all that that shows is what you describe above. We would need to see the schematics for the analog board (and) the logic board. I suppose it may get rather voluminous.. From jim at photojim.ca Fri Jun 29 12:17:42 2007 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:17:42 -0600 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephonyswitches)) References: <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> <46852FF3.6070505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <01cd01c7ba71$674e8b60$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 11:12 AM Subject: Re: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephonyswitches)) > $1.00 a minute seems pricy to me for long distance in the 1980s - at > least for off-peak. Were Canadian rates that bad everywhere, or just > around you? In 1984-1985, I paid $1.04 a minute (Canadian) daytime to call most of Canada and all of the US. From 6 pm to midnight or all day Sunday it was $0.59, and from midnight to 6 am it was $0.42. We would do our long distance BBS calling at midnight, almost invariably, because it was so much less expensive. Of course, things have changed a little now. I can call Copenhagen, Denmark for 2.5 cents a minute on my home phone. :) Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 12:18:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:18:05 -0400 Subject: RX02 parallel port interface (was Re: Linux PCB CAD software?) Message-ID: On 6/29/07, Bruce Ray wrote: > Before leaving the RX01 topic, note that Chuck's design was implemented > using the Cadsoft Eagle years ago and is available at: > > http://www.wildharecomputers.com/download/rx0x/rx01-b.zip > > A minor update is at: > > http://www.wildharecomputers.com/download/rx0x/rx01-d.zip Thanks for those. > The idea of putting an SX-28 processor in control of the communications and > using a native USB interface resulted in the (untested) derivative design > at: > > http://www.wildharecomputers.com/download/rx0x/rx-usb.zip I'll have to look at that. I have, in hand, an ATMEGA8 bridging USB to a textual LCD panel for LCDproc / LCD4LINUX, etc. The USB implementation is in software, keeping the project cost quite low ($3.25 for an ATMEGA8 in low quantities, AFAIK). I might have to see if I can take what you have there and see if an ATMEGA8 can do it, too. I hate the fact that the parallel port is vanishing, but since I can't keep it from happening, I might as well attempt to keep classic peripherals working with hardware that's out now and in the near future. -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jun 29 12:17:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:17:22 -0400 Subject: Seagate ST1480N termpwr jumpers In-Reply-To: <4684EF57.4010801@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4684CCAF.7020303@yahoo.co.uk> <4684EF57.4010801@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200706291317.23655.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 29 June 2007 07:39, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 29/06/2007 10:11, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Does anyone happen to have a reference for the termpwr jumpers on a > > Seagate ST1480N 425MB SCSI disk? > > > > The only online reference I've found so far is set out to use the old > > DOS font with line drawing characters in it, and nothing I've been able > > to find in Firefox (or elsewhere in Linux) has been able to display it > > properly :-( Somewhere around here I have a file called "THEREF" (I think the latest version I have is theref43.zip) that contains all sorts of info like that -- in ASCII. If there's a need, I can probably dig out a copy and put it online someplace... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 29 12:18:13 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:18:13 -0500 Subject: LISA In-Reply-To: <468528E3.4070503@bitsavers.org> References: <468528E3.4070503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46853ED5.2090504@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > So, does anyone know what happened to that 90,000+ lines of (Pascal) > Source Code for LOS? > > Last time I saw it, it was on a Lisa in the source control library at Apple > > > It would sure been neet to be able to look at it. > > I agree. The Computer History Museum is willing to archive it. All you > have to do is ask > Steve to release it. I'm sure he has nothing better to do today. :-) Is it known whether it's "safe" - multiple copies on multiple media across more than one site etc.? I can understand vendors not being ready / willing to release 'sensitive' things like this - and it's their call, after all - but given the historical importance then some reassurance would be nice that it's not about to vanish from the face of the earth (accidentally or otherwise). Maybe that's a question that the CHM, with their preservation hat on, can ask? From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jun 29 12:33:42 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:33:42 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6F8@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jay West wrote: Billy wrote... >> Come on people: there were computers long before there were >> microcomputers. I seem to remember a recent post complaining that this list was nothing but minicomputer and big-iron talk, no microcomputer discussion. Apparently that was wrong, as now there is a complaint it's just micro talk? ;) Jay ------------ Jay, I wasn't complaining about the list or the subject matter - I'm quite content to see all sorts of ramblings, even some off subject. I was trying to make the point that a computer built around a microprocessor is not particularly weird or unusual - The subject of the thread. Billy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 12:39:20 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:39:20 -0400 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephonyswitches)) In-Reply-To: <01cd01c7ba71$674e8b60$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> <46852FF3.6070505@jetnet.ab.ca> <01cd01c7ba71$674e8b60$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: On 6/29/07, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > In 1984-1985, I paid $1.04 a minute (Canadian) daytime to call most of > Canada and all of the US. Daytime, I can see being pricey - it was in the States, too. > From 6 pm to midnight or all day Sunday it was > $0.59, and from midnight to 6 am it was $0.42. We would do our long > distance BBS calling at midnight, almost invariably, because it was so much > less expensive. Sure... I don't think I could make a "night rate" call (23:00 to, I guess, 06:00) for much under $0.40/min. We made most of our calls late back then. > Of course, things have changed a little now. I can call Copenhagen, Denmark > for 2.5 cents a minute on my home phone. :) Sure. I was just at lunch with someone in the telecom industry. Not because of this thread but for independent reasons, it came up that their employer (a large wireless company) paid $0.005/min for long distance pumped from their customers to get onto a land line. That's why you can get Europe for $0.025/min now... there's room for profit even at that level. Thank you, Judge Green. -ethan (who never once did long-distance modem dialling, especially after that first CIS bill) From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jun 29 12:45:17 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:45:17 -0700 Subject: MP3 players Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6FA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jay West wrote: I find it exceedingly difficult to consider this type of thread on-topic. Jay ---------------------- Jay, I agree with you in principle. But I've spent the last two years working on interfacing hard drives to MP3 players. They aren't old enough for the list, but technically, they employ a lot of computers folks like me. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 12:46:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:46:23 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4684C674.428.1C6A2B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4684E2FF.10781.8BE703@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jun 2007 at 12:09, William Donzelli wrote: > > 6 4X150s (at what, 250W plate > > dissipation per the each?) > > 150, thus the *150. 250 for the 1960 (and later) versions. See: http://www.g8wrb.org/data/Eimac/4X150A.pdf I don't know if those were used in the SS-80, but the part number isn't always the most reliable indicator. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jun 29 12:49:09 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:49:09 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6FB@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: Quite honestly, I didn't know what the time frame of the original question was--I did mention the Univac SS-80, however--and I did make reference to strange designs of the 50s. But "computer" isn't very specific. How about the hybrid computers of the 60s? How about the "mostly diodes and not a lot of transistor" machines like the PB250? Some parameters for the original question might be helpful. Cheers, Chuck ----------------- Chuck, I agree with you on all your points. And add the Recomp jukebox series to the all diode machines. They had less than 100 flip-flops per system! Billy From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 29 12:52:44 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:52:44 -0700 Subject: LISA Message-ID: <468546EC.90608@bitsavers.org> > given the historical importance Preservation of Lisa software is a particularly sore spot with me. I tried to find someone who would permit releasing it for many years while I was there. It is dead, dead, dead. People who worked on it didn't really want to admit they even worked on it. Any hope of it ever being released died when Steve came back. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jun 29 12:55:04 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:55:04 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6FD@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jay West wrote: SortofKindaNotReally MicroData Reality machines were firmware implementations of Pick (Reality), not software implementations. As a result, you couldn't actually microprogram the thing as an end user (normally). There *WAS* an EEPROM board that would replace the firmware board, but I don't believe that was typically released to the field. I used to have two M1600's (the early ones with the wood panels). One of them did have the EEPROM microcode option but I do know that particular unit was sent out from microdata "under the table". I had let these two machines slip through my fingers many years ago, long before I got into collecting. BUT - on the bright side - I found out a year or so ago that those two machines actually did wind up in the hands of another collector who is known to another listmember! I now have an M1600 that is the later metal panel variety, waiting to be restored. Even on the software implementations (which the microdata's weren't), you could create new missionary instructions from native instructions by playing some games in the 5-pass assembly process. However, this wouldn't technically be considered microprogramming as the "native" instructions would be just whatever the underlying cpu was (68000, PDP11, RS6000, x86, etc.). So you could create new virtual instructions, but still not really microprogramming. Jay -------------- I always thought the early MicroData systems were different from the Reality series. Looks like I was wrong. (Where is Jim Stephens when you need him? He has all these systems and the software to go with them.) Billy From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 13:03:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:03:27 -0700 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephonyswitches)) In-Reply-To: References: , <01cd01c7ba71$674e8b60$1802a8c0@JIMM>, Message-ID: <4684E6FF.21758.9B8AC7@cclist.sydex.com> Was anyone else a customer of Call Computer in Mountain View, CA during the 70's? Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 29 13:08:03 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:08:03 -0400 Subject: LISA In-Reply-To: <468546EC.90608@bitsavers.org> References: <468546EC.90608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46854A83.5040705@atarimuseum.com> Can you blame them??? I mean, there's that secret Steve Job's memo that says "any former L-Project member who brings up that name, is to be taken behind R&D and have thrown at them all of the returned Apple ///'s until he/she submits and only says Macintosh" ;-) Curt Al Kossow wrote: > > given the historical importance > > Preservation of Lisa software is a particularly sore spot with me. > I tried to find someone who would permit releasing it for many years > while I was there. It is dead, dead, dead. People who worked on it > didn't really want to admit they even worked on it. Any hope of it > ever being released died when Steve came back. > > > From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jun 29 13:11:23 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:11:23 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6FE@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Roger Holmes wrote: MOST????? STANDARD????? Rubbish! IBM 7094 - 36 bits. ICT 1301 - 48 bits. CDC 6600/7600 60 (or was it 64?) bits. CDC SC17 (not sure exact era) - 16 bits. Elliott 903/920B/905/920C/920ATC - 18 bits. Many of the BCD machines used 4 bit words I believe. Mid 60s ICL 1900 - 24 bits. What used 40 bits? > What about the MicroData machines with a build your own > instructions on the fly? Tell us more please. Microcoded or 'Extra code' ? > And then there were the ultra-strange like the G-15 - 29 bit word > size, all > instructions were modified moves through arithmetic logic or I/O > devices. > The I/O devices were actually part of the internal logic - no > channels. Actual physical memory, access my DMA from the device or just memory mapped I/O ? ----------------- Billy replies: This was a serial machine using a magnetic drum for memory. So the registers and memory were all bit serial and on the drum. I/O was accomplish by moving data from one line to another. The logic at each end of the line was in peripheral but the bits were on the drum. So it really doesn't fit the standard definition of memory mapped I/O, though that is the closest description. There were no channels per se. Al has just posted most of the G-15 manuals. Have a look. It certainly qualifies for the weirdest machine I ever worked on. ---------------- Roger Holmes: Remember? I am restoring/maintaining an ICT 1301 which has individual Germanium transistors, wire-OR, four and gates to a PCB, one flip- flop one a PCB, a clock derived from the timing track of the last addressed drum store, a core store unit weighing half a ton an stores just 2000 x 48 bit words (plus 2000 x 2 parity bits). Its got Ampex TM4 mag tape drives (not industry standard 7 or 9 track, these are ten track units with hubs the same design as professional audio tapes and the 2 and 3 inch wide video tapes once used by TV broadcasters). [Snip] --------------------- Billy: I salute you. I wish more people on this list had your energy and love of old metal and were restoring it. I enjoy hearing about your efforts. I'm also working on a germanium transistor wired-AND core memory machine. It used TM2's not TM4's. And I've been unable to find any tape units. Did find the original card reader, a modified Burroughs. Still, I consider what you are doing to be the true goal of classic computers. I read, enjoy and participate with the microprocessor based list threads. But my real love is in truly "classic" computers like yours. ---------------- Roger Holmes: > And many of them were wonderfully different and creative. Indeed. And some of them almost make you cry because so much more could have been done with the same amount of electonics. My machine has been modified to implement an index instruction. Previously all indexing and indirection had to be done by program modification, and even now subroutine return is done that way (see my previous e-mail). I have one machine in 'conserved' state, unmolested, unrepaired non- runner, and one with extra tweeks and darn right mass rewiring which runs and I can't stop thinking about how it could be improved, yet somehow manage to stop myself doing so. There are so many gaps in the instruction code and spare bits in the instructions etc. The only modification I am working on plugs into an extension port lashed up by a previous owner. This is to capture the data from the machine onto modern media. May replace with an RS232 interface later to drive a teletype and/or pen plotter, and/or a parallel inteface for a Friden Flexowriter. [sni] Roger Holmes. Classic computer collector, classic car collector, machine tool collector/user (for the prior mentioned hobbies), and for a job, programmer of CAD and graphic software and printer/plotter drivers for Apple computers. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jun 29 13:24:00 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:24:00 -0700 Subject: "Oddball" Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6FF@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Christian Corti wrote: And don't forget the LGP-30 (450 built in total, 45 built in Germany) and compatibles (LGP-21, ...). Its word size is officially 32 bits, with only 31 bits usable (only the accumulator can hold all 32 bits, once stored on the drum the LSB is forced to zero). So I call it a 31-1/2 bit machine. And its design is marvelous, a CPU with all four basic arithmetic functions (fixed point) that contains only 15 flip-flops. Christian Billy wrote: Delightful machine wasn't it? To accomplish so much with so little logic. Those were the days when an engineer would be consider a genius and could get a big bonus for eliminating one flip-flop! Billy From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Jun 29 13:27:12 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:27:12 -0400 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephonyswitches)) In-Reply-To: References: <01cd01c7ba71$674e8b60$1802a8c0@JIMM> <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> <46852FF3.6070505@jetnet.ab.ca> <01cd01c7ba71$674e8b60$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070629135624.05402900@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >(who never once did long-distance modem dialling, especially after >that first CIS bill) Ah, see, it was the opposite for me - Michigan's wide areas & weird laws (I'm guessing, IANAL ;-) made for strange bedfellows in the telecom industry... IIRC, my late-nite long-distance calling options when I was running 300baud on my CoCo2, in the '84-'86 time frame were (closest to farthest): Soo Canada, 2 miles away - IIRC, it was about $1.50+/min "Inter-LATA" calls (which for me, was anywhere in the Upper Peninsula of MI - the part most people think is either Wisconsin or Canada ;-) the closest connection being the city of Marquette 150 miles away, would be about $0.50-0.55/min, "Out of LATA" but still in Michigan (to the Lower Peninsula, "Land of the Trolls" [1] ;-) the closest being Traverse City, also about 150 miles away was around $0.75-0.80/min. Out of State calls depending on distance - Cali was much more expensive than Ohio, but Wisconsin was cheapest of all, so I called Green Bay, WI - 300+ miles (depending on how tired the crow was ;-) was around $0.35-0.40/min. So, for me, out of state was actually cheaper! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Until about 5 years ago, the Mackinac Bridge[2] was the longest single-span suspension bridge in the world, and really defines our area. Us'n yoopers (UPers) define "those that live below the Bridge" trolls... think "Three Billy Goats Gruff." It's a term of endearment. Really! ;-) [2] For those who like "Dirty Jobs with Mike Rowe" - he was just up here a week or two ago shooting a segment for a few days -- all about the constant (summertime, anyway) job of painting the steel segments of the bridge. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Jun 29 13:27:10 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:27:10 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <200706291701.l5TH10ki065902@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706291701.l5TH10ki065902@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5D456CEC-6AE1-4262-B5E5-32886CD714CD@microspot.co.uk> > > Core was available by 1952, most of the big machines after this > date (on this side > of the pond at least) were core based. The IBM 650 was actually one > of the smaller > machines, at least inasmuch as IBM was already making much larger > machines > (the 700 series). Wasn't core memory very expensive in the beginning? It had to be hand assembled, at least in the early days. I think there was a more gradual take up than you suggest. Of course the more expensive machines which used it first saw a huge speed increase over drum main memory. When I was at university (71-74), the college's mainframe still used a drum from program overlays (probably really the virtual memory backing storage, but possibly just dumping and restoring the whole program between time slices. The machine was no slouch, it was serving about a hundred terminals and running a couple of batch streams as well (Maximop and George 2). Mid 1970s I remember seeing a small plastic pot about the size of a 35mm film canister, which was full of about 100,000 unstrung cores, they were tiny! They were used in the Marconi-Elliott 920ATC computer and also in the early Cruise missiles and some torpedoes. Ever wondered why a British submarine used a WW2 type torpedo to sink the big Argentinian Cruiser? My theory is that they were too worried about the modern torpedoes coming back and blowing themselves up, so they used one they trusted to go where it was pointed. Hopefully 25 years on, they've sorted out the terrible guidance system. Not related, but apparently the programmers were in a quandary as to what the program should do after it had issued the order to detonate. Like the old TV series 'Waiting for God'. The first machine which ICT introduced with core memory was in 1962, though physically large, the 1300 was a medium power machine, seen more as a versatile tabulator for accounts rather than scientific work, though it had a structural frame analysis package and even PERT, though I suppose that is just up market accounting in a way. Customers did all sorts of other work on it too, helping to design 'planes and even playing music on the built in speaker. There's a wonderful program called Ghost, only a half a dozen instructions, which uses the variable length of the multiply instruction to make a ghostly sound on the speaker. Its a good test of the CPU too, and can be keyed in through the control panel if need be in a minute or so. Also has drums - each one 12000 words x 48 bits run by a 3/4 horsepower motor and occupying 2ft x 2ft x 5 ft. Compared to the 8GB SDHC card for my 12MP camera which is about an inch by an inch by a sixteenth and stores 100,000 times as much in about 1 / 500,000 times the volume. And the core store is one sixth the capacity of the drum in a greater volume. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 13:28:03 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:28:03 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684E2FF.10781.8BE703@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4684C674.428.1C6A2B@cclist.sydex.com> <4684E2FF.10781.8BE703@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > 250 for the 1960 (and later) versions. See: > > http://www.g8wrb.org/data/Eimac/4X150A.pdf > > I don't know if those were used in the SS-80, but the part number > isn't always the most reliable indicator. When the design was upgraded, one of many times, they stopped being 4X150As, and received a new RMA (and I think a new Eimac) number. Basically a frequency derated 4X250. -- Will From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 29 13:34:29 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:34:29 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684B8FD.3040406@gmail.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4684AF66.F6001F33@cs.ubc.ca> <4684B8FD.3040406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706291434.30033.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 29 June 2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Brent Hilpert wrote: > >>> Some other oddball values from that era: > >>> - BINAC: 31 bits > >> > >> I don't know if you can call 31-bit "oddball". IBM literally made > >> thousands upon thousands. > > > > Processor? > > 370/XA, ESA/370 and ESA/390. Those aren't "processors". Those are > "processor architectures" for each of which there were several > implementations. If you're gonna claim that S/360 is 24-bit, 370/XA and ESA/390 are 31-bit, you might as well claim that 8080/8085/z80 were 16bit CPUs, or that an 8088 was a 20-bit CPU. Everything from a S/360 model 25 through a 9672-ZZ7 s/390 were all 32-bit "CPU"s as far as I'm concerned. zArchitecture is 64-bit of course... unless you're running it in ESA/390 mode. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 13:36:13 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:36:13 -0700 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) In-Reply-To: References: <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730706291136m281aaa62kf8fbcf3ef6f21240@mail.gmail.com> On 6/29/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I didn't get a 1200 bps modem until 1984 when my employer loaned me a > Ventel (still have it). It was in a rounded vacu-formed wrinkled > black plastic shell with a row of LEDs across the front. You Like this one? http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/522484788/in/set-72157600310353325/ I've never attached mine to anything...I should do that. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 29 13:38:01 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:38:01 -0600 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) In-Reply-To: References: <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> <46852FF3.6070505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46855189.1080606@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > $1.00 a minute seems pricy to me for long distance in the 1980s - at > least for off-peak. Were Canadian rates that bad everywhere, or just > around you? I was in the middle of the mountains. That is what came to mind when I wrote the email. 35 cents a minute could have been the night rate after midight. I do know that the cost of remote access and long distance charges where more than I could afford. > -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 14:03:13 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:03:13 -0400 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <5D456CEC-6AE1-4262-B5E5-32886CD714CD@microspot.co.uk> References: <200706291701.l5TH10ki065902@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5D456CEC-6AE1-4262-B5E5-32886CD714CD@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: > Wasn't core memory very expensive in the beginning? It was never cheap. There were some patent and license issues, as well. IBM had to pay thru the nose to use core. > Ever > wondered why a British submarine used a WW2 type torpedo to sink the > big Argentinian Cruiser? Because using an expensive modern torpedo would have been a waste on such a big, slow target. Torpedoes are VERY expensive, and are used with great care. Using torpedoes carelessly can cost a captain his command. > My theory is that they were too worried > about the modern torpedoes coming back and blowing themselves up, so > they used one they trusted to go where it was pointed. The old ones used to do that. RIP TANG. I am not completely familiar with the older RN torpedoes, but the US ones of the era were programmed by a very impressive mechanical computer called the TDC (Torpedo Data Computer). After a torpedo is shot, it travels as small distance straight, switches on, then starts to curve a set amount until a preset heading is reached, then straightens back out. Sometimes this guidance system gets stuck, and the torpedo passes the preset, in which case it will just keep turning all the way back to the submarine. After a few sometimes tragic accidents, a safety was put into the guidance system to turn off the torpedo if the thing was approaching 360 degrees of arc. As you can gather from this, it becomes apparent that a submarine does not have to point towards a target to fire. Solving for the final torpedo heading really is no big deal on paper - maybe about 20 variables, but in 1940 it was quite a big deal. The US Navy came up with the TDC Mk3 (later Mk 4) to do all this automatically, and even program the torpedoes with a small keyed shaft that is inserted into the side of the things before being shot. The TDC is almost as impressive as the Arma Mk 1 fire control computers of the same era, used to calculate the problems of putting a 16 inch shell on the deck of a ship 20 miles away. PAMPANITO in the Bay Area (Fisherman's Wharf) has completely restored working TDC, the result of many many hours of work from a dedicated volunteer. It is up in the control room, and very hard to see without appointment. -- Will From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 29 14:23:41 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:23:41 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 References: Message-ID: <001801c7ba83$01e42700$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Why? The 8080 has all the processing functions on one chip. The >other chips used with it are the clock generator and bus interface >which IMHO are not processing functions.... I know you can get by without the clock/bus interface chips, but *technically* the 8080 is a 3 chip solution which, by his definition, makes it a mini.... I've also got a vague recollection that the F8 came in 2 seperate packages? I'm just saying, it isn't always quite as cut and dried as it might seem. BTW Although the 8080 can do without the bus interface chip, it does generate a number of fairly important control signals which you would otherwise have to latch and generate yourself "manually" as it were. As such I consider it an important, albeit external, part of the processor (as in, the only reason they made it external was because there weren't enough pins on the processor package to accommodate all the required signals). >> Likewise, would you consider a processor made from bit-slice devices >>to be a mini? > Actually, I would. Those chips are not only used to make that particular >processor. Sorry, bad example....I must've been suffering from severe brain-fade when I wrote that....I've got a mini downstairs, which I think contains a CPU made of bit-slice processors. D'Oh! What I specifically had in mind when I wrote that was the "mathbox" inside my Atari BattleZone (and now I come to think of it, the FPF11). Never mind... ;-) TTFN - Pete. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 14:31:52 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:31:52 -0400 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) In-Reply-To: <46855189.1080606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <468510EB.3040409@atarimuseum.com> <46852FF3.6070505@jetnet.ab.ca> <46855189.1080606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0706291231x500ae02bt357d71ff2f386768@mail.gmail.com> My first "Online" experience was in the late 80's at my Uncle's house. He worked for Dow chemical, and had one of those strange semi-PC compatible "laptop" computers. It had a customized terminal program in firmware, you would dial in to Dow's modem pool, authenticate using one of those time-based token calculator things, hang up, and the modem pool would *call you back* at your registered phone number, the terminal app would pick up, you'd authenticate again and you're all set. A couple of keystrokes later and I was on their VAX cluster. Nice system, I played around with BASIC and FORTRAN, and their disaster simulation software that was fun. A few years ago one of my acquaintances was working for Dow, porting their VAX based peoplesoft app to the PC, so they were still on big iron up until just a couple years ago. Around 1988 my other uncle gave me his old 1200-baud Hayes Smartmodem. I bought a copy of Red Ryder from EduCorp and dialed into my first BBS from my Mac 512KE. I mostly used BBSes until I found that you could telnet from the local Merit university dialins. I could telnet to Michigan State's FTP and Gopher proxy, then, in the early 90's, Lynx. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 14:43:40 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:43:40 +0100 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46848505.2000606@oldskool.org> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070628183218.Y62520@shell.lmi.net> <46848505.2000606@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <575131af0706291243u4983997akffd8c88d756b4baf@mail.gmail.com> On 29/06/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: > >> Make that EWB'ed (Extremely Well Behaved). It was > >> largely BIOS and DOS function call compatible, but > >> that was all. > >> There was at least 1 186 mobo/puter from a company > >> called Computer Products United. Said to be 100% > >> compatible (not possible if they utilized the 186's > >> onboard peripherals). > > > > While it is not hard to get CLOSE, Truly 100% compatability would > > also require 100% copyright infringement. > > Then how was Compaq able to get around it? The original Compaq is the > only compatible I've ever used that -- BASIC programs aside -- ran > everything a real 5150 would, without exception. I bet it didn't have a ROM BASIC, for example - so it wouldn't load BASIC programs from tape, like a real ib machine. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 29 14:57:58 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:57:58 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <900916.41812.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009301c7ba87$cb808fa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> >> You don't need an IBM compatible BIOS to run >>MS-DOS.... > care to share an example? Victor 9000/Sirius 1 ACT Apricot PC series/ "F" series / "Xen" series (prior to "Xen-i") DEC Rainbow Sanyo MBC-555 and many, *many* more....I.E. MS-DOS<>IBM compatible! Oh, and there's also the "Gazelle" from "Seattle Computer" circa 1979; an 8088 based S-100(!) machine, and the machine which MS-DOS was actually developed on! From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 15:04:41 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:04:41 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <900916.41812.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706291304od88ac6bud833ae223f6f2db4@mail.gmail.com> On 29/06/07, Richard wrote: > > In article <900916.41812.qm at web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, > Chris M writes: > > > > > --- Ensor wrote: > > > You don't need an IBM compatible BIOS to run > > > MS-DOS.... > > > > care to share an example? > > Apricot PCs. They were MS-DOS compatible, but not BIOS compatible. > Its the thing that effectively killed them as competitors in the US > marketplace, even if they had some good ideas compared to other PC > clones at the time. The lack of BIOS compatability is what prevented > them from running lots of PC software (particularly games, thus > killing it for being a "home computer"). They were not 100% IBM PC > compatible as a result. Well, true, but you're indulging in some sophistry there. For one, the ACT Apricots didn't run /the IBM version/ of MS-DOS - they had their own special edition, AFAIK. For a second, they did I believe have a BIOS, again, their own one, not an IBM or compatible BIOS. If the question were rephrased more specifically and precisely: can one run the PC edition of MS-DOS on a machine with no BIOS at all or with a non-PC-compatible BIOS? -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 15:11:44 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:11:44 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <93125.44003.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <575131af0706261515v106fce51jbd2fc23b992457c7@mail.gmail.com> <93125.44003.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706291311i2b53b227n6aa99f6dc2f87e44@mail.gmail.com> On 29/06/07, Chris M wrote: > > --- Liam Proven wrote: > > > > --- Liam Proven wrote: > > > > So the > > > criteria for uninteresting has become whether or > > not > > > it can run a particular program/s? > > > > It's one. If it runs all the programs from PCs, it's > > a PC. > > It's one thing to run *a* program, quite another to > run *all*. *The* PC and Apples, Commodores, etc. > actually share a few if you've never noticed. I don't follow. I know of no single binary that'll run on all of them, except in a VM of some form, such as the UCSD p-System or the Infocom runtime. > Congratulations on your promotion as spokesperson for > all of us. Oh, come /on./ Even the spinoff thread on rare & interesting PC compatibles has been marked as offtopic! > > I'm curious as to why you're becoming so exercised > > over this? > > I haven't even broken a sweat. If you're wondering > why I reply to such rhetoric, dunno, guess it kills > the day. Er, right. > > > > About > > > > the only time a PC > > > > compatible is interesting in architectural or > > design > > > > terms is if it's > > > > something like a BBC Master 512 - a 2nd > > processor in > > > > an alien computer > > > > connected over a CPU-to-CPU bus. Thus, there's > > some > > > > interest in > > > > hardware PC cards for the various Macs, in the > > > > add-in boards for the > > > > Acorn RISC PC (I have one here, if I ever get it > > > > working) and so > > > > forth. > > > > > > What about dual or triple processor machines that > > > just happent to have an 80x86? Are they > > immediately > > > deemed uninteresting? It seems that some boxes > > w/an > > > Intel processor can often be some of the rarest > > pieces > > > around. I can give you a list if you like and > > > challenge you to find 2 or 3 others on this list > > with > > > one, sometimes their won't even be another single > > > person. > > > > Depends. A Compaq SystemPro (really early SMP PC) is > > still a PC, it's > > just a PC that could do interesting things running > > Unix. A Sequent > > multi-proc server isn't a PC, 'cos it won't run PC > > OSs or apps, so > > it's marginally more interesting, but it's still > > relatively mainstream > > compared to some of the exotica that people have > > been suggesting here. > > So would a Sun 386i be. > > What's irrelevant to the thread may not be irrelevant > to all discussion on this list. And most of what you > mentioned in the preceding is seemingly too new to be > relevant at all. SystemPros are too new? They're nearly 20y ago! > > > The problem is when people utter those words it's > > > really indicative of a unit with an 80x86. > > > > Not really, no. I've seen lots of non-PC-compatible > > x86 kit; I even > > wrote an article about it for Wikipedia before some > > little idiot > > deleted it, which I'm not happy about. > > Please forward it. I did, in a follow-up message. There's a version of it here: http://www.search.com/reference/Non-PC_compatible_x86_computers > > > Linux? We seem to be diving off topic there. And > > I'll > > > grant there are many OS' more interesting then > > DOS. > > > But if you're rendering all DOS based machines > > > uninteresting, you may as well throw CP/M, TRS-DOS > > and > > > a number of others in with it. Remember this is a > > > vintage forum. If you want real *interesting* > > stuff, > > > you'd typicall fare better somewhere else, > > interesting > > > typically signifying cutting-edge. > > > > Why would you discard pre-PC machines? You're > > throwing the baby out > > with the bathwater. Ancestors of PCs need not be PCs > > themselves. > > ?. I wasn't the one discarding anything. It just > follows that if talk of pcish/dosish stuff is > off-topic due to it's uninterestingishness, other > *uninteresting* topics would by necessity follow. Now, > I don't find talk of Trs-dos/CP/M uninteresting. If I > had, I'd simply ignore it, and keep my trap shut. The thread - which I think has been a pretty successful, wide-ranging discussion; I've certainly found it very entertaining - was about weird and unusual /computers/ in general. Not micros, not PCs. I submit that by the standards of diversity that the world's seen in the last 70-odd years of computing, the PC is a very vanilla machine indeed. Indeed, it's arguably /the/ most vanilla, because it is probably the single architecture with the largest number of OSs, the largest number of apps, the largest number of individual units, the largest number of users and the largest number of 3rd-party binary and plug-compatible versions. The PC is, I suspect, the baseline, that to which all others ultimately will be compared. It is the very /definition/ of the "ordinary computer". -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 15:20:01 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:20:01 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <200706260043.39786.rtellason@verizon.net> <575131af0706260831x3547710bj3d4b502063720401@mail.gmail.com> <200706261222.27144.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0706261455q53e0a72bj927ecdd3626a36af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706291320u46e0d898o66988f78ac83616c@mail.gmail.com> On 27/06/07, William Donzelli wrote: > >. All 10s and 100s > > and 1000s, no room for confusion - like the street grid of NYC. > > Either this is a joke, or you have never been to New York City. Please tell. I've visited New York several times. For a stranger, I think it's the single easiest city in the world I've ever encountered. You can tell N/S/E/W from a combination of traffic flow and street number, and apart from a couple of transects like the Avenue of the Americas, it's a lovely simple rational grid. Within days of my first arrival, I was walking everywhere from Central Park to Battery Park without getting lost. It wasn't until I'd explored it like that, on foot, that I understood the common reference in American film & TV to places as being on, say, "35th and 3rd" or something. Just a corner means you can navigate straight to the right corner of the right block and be there, without a map. Compare and contrast with the hours I have spent wandering directionless around cities all over the world while poring over a map. This includes my native England and my chosen home, London, even now, after some 16y here. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From rickb at bensene.com Fri Jun 29 15:25:41 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:25:41 -0700 Subject: "Oddball"(LGP-30) In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6FF@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6FF@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: > Billy wrote: > > Delightful machine wasn't it? To accomplish so much with so > little logic. > Those were the days when an engineer would be consider a > genius and could get a big bonus for eliminating one flip-flop! > The guy that desined the LGP-30 architecture was indeed truly a genius. His name was Stanley Frankel. He was a physicist, but was extremely well-versed in almost all of the sciences. Frankel was a key member of the team of folks that worked on the Manhattan Project to develop the A-Bomb. His understanding of nuclear physics, as well as extremely complex math, lent itself to Frankel being a prime mover in developing the algorithm for the "computers" (people with desktop mechanical calculators who would get a slip of paper with a problem to solve, which they would do with the calculator, then record the result, and pass the paper on) that "ran" the nuclear diffusion calculations for the folks designing the bomb. The "computers" were slow, and sometimes made mistakes. Frankel, along with some other team members, came up with ways of making the calculations cross-checked by others, so that the chance for error was minimized. It was essnetially like programming a computer is today, yet it's all done with paper, pencil, people, and mechanical calculators. Later, to speed up the process, an IBM Card Programmed Calculator (essentially an electronic math unit that was programmed with plugboards, and used punched cards for input and output) helped speed up the process, and again, Frankel was a major force in developing the algorithms to make the calculations possible on this machine. After the Manhattan Project ended, Frankel did consulting work. It is during this time that he developed some computer designs. One of his designs was for the architecutre of what became the LGP-30. He presentated a paper on his design (which was indeed extremely elegant and efficient), and attracted the interest of folks with Royal McBee (later acsuired by General Precision, then Librascope), and a deal was cut for Royal McBee to license the design for creation of an actual computer, which became the LGP-30. Frankel worked closely with the engineers to come up with the working design of the LGP-30, a machine that utilized a magnetic drum for main storage, large arrays of diode-resistor gating, and a relatively small number of vacuum tubes for flip flops, buffering, and drive circuitry. Later, Frankel ended up doing early electronic calculator design. He developed the design of what became the Smith Corona/Marchant Cogito 240 and Cogito 240SR calculators, which were all-transistor, bit-serial calculating machines that utilized a magnetostrictive delay line for register memory, and an oscilloscope-type CRT tube to display results in vector-generated digits. Smith Corona Marchant had an OEM marketing agreement with Diehl Calculating Machine Co., in West Germany. Diehl was very successful in the mechanical calculating machine marketplace, designing desktop electro-mechanical calculators that were both extremely fast, and virtually bulletproof. Frankel had designed a small-scale microprogrammed logic engine in his home office (he called it Nic-Nac), as a personal project. The idea was to make this "programmable logic engine" the core architecture for a calculator. The folks at Diehl were looking for a way to break into the blossoming electronic calculator market, and learned of Frankel's idea through Frankel's work with SCM on the Cogito 240/240SR. Diehl licensed the architecture that Frankel had designed. Frankel, and his son, Allan, would travel to Diehl's plant to help them with turning the microprogrammed concept into a working calculator. A somewhat improved version of Nic-Nac was built in Germany, which was then used as the development test-bed for what became the Diehl Combitron calculator. The Combitron was Diehl's first all-electronic calculator, and it was indeed a microprogrammed machine. It had a roll of punched metal tape that contained the microcode for the machine. The Combitron used two magnetostrictive delay lines as memory, one which would be loaded with the microcode at power-up (from the punched metal tape), and another that contained the working registers of the calculator. This generalized architecture allowed the calculator to have a very low component count for a complete desktop printing electronic calculator with memory registers and square root. A later revision, the Combitron S, added facilities for additional stroage which allowed the machine to be user-programmable by "learning" calculator operations into memory from the keyboard. The Combitron S was picked up by SCM because of their OEM agreement with Diehl, and marketed by SCM as the SCM 566PR. Frankel received royalties for every Diehl Combitron, Combitron S, and SCM 566PM that were made. Just thought that perhaps some background on the genius of Stan Frankel, and his contribution to electronic computing, may be of interest. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 15:25:54 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:25:54 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706261222.27144.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0706261455q53e0a72bj927ecdd3626a36af@mail.gmail.com> <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <575131af0706291325h5487c838mb95a027f7cfcb2d7@mail.gmail.com> On 27/06/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Jun 2007 at 22:55, Liam Proven wrote: > > > What I never understood is why the USA didn't use the larger units > > rather than dealing in hundreds and thousands of pounds. I don't think > > of myself as being 225lb, I'm 16 and a quarter stone. (And badly need > > to lose some of it; I'm 6'2" but I'm happier and healthier around 15st > > or lighter.) For larger objects, hundredweight [oh gods, I've just > > realised I weigh 2cwt! 8?( ] or tons. 112lb = 1cwt. 20cwt = 1 ton > > (=2240lb). > > I'm certain that body weight would be quoted in ounces if that would > sell more diet books. :?) > The problem with stone is that the least > significant digit increments only one for every 14 lbs. Well, that's a problem with all Imperial units; they increment modulo some random number. I'm just glad they're all integers. I don't see why it makes stones any less use? > You > certainly don't measure your height in hands (just horses, right?). I don't measure horses at all, myself. I stroke their nose, give 'em a handful of something to eat and then go and find something more interesting to do. :?) But yes, AFAIK, hands are only used in horse measurement. Stones are almost only used for people, and then, it's usually just stone except for dieters and medical types. "14 and a half" or "8 and a quarter"; people don't generally specify stones and then pounds. > Hundredweight exists for the shipping business. We have two tons-- > one that's 2000 pounds, and the "long" ton, which is 2240 pounds and > used for coal and marine displacement. OIC. TFTI! > I don't know if NASA still uses slugs to measure mass, but it > certainly did as late as the 1990s. WTF is a slug in this context? > Then there's the confusion between troy and avoirdupois. > > "Three grains of barley, dry and round..." Oh no. That sort of thing makes me appreciate metric so very much more. Apart from nationalism and inertia, I don't understand why anyone prefers Imperial, myself. I only use it for a few things out of habit; I'm perfect comfortable thinking of myself as 1m88 and 103.5kg, but when someone says they're 1m56 tall, I have to convert to work out what that means. :?) It's most annoying. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 29 15:46:58 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:46:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <575131af0706291325h5487c838mb95a027f7cfcb2d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0706291325h5487c838mb95a027f7cfcb2d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706291646.58456.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 29 June 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > On 27/06/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > : > > The problem with stone is that the least > > significant digit increments only one for every 14 lbs. > > Well, that's a problem with all Imperial units; they increment modulo > some random number. I'm just glad they're all integers. I don't see > why it makes stones any less use? No, the problem isn't the number "14", it's the relative size of the number. 1 stone is a large difference in weight between people, compared to a pound. > > I don't know if NASA still uses slugs to measure mass, but it > > certainly did as late as the 1990s. > > WTF is a slug in this context? A slug is the Imperial unit of mass, the equivalent of a (kilo)gram, but in English units. (Pounds are the English equivalent of Newtons.) > Apart from nationalism and inertia, I don't understand why anyone > prefers Imperial, myself. I only use it for a few things out of > habit; I'm perfect comfortable thinking of myself as 1m88 and > 103.5kg, but when someone says they're 1m56 tall, I have to convert > to work out what that means. :?) It's most annoying. People don't want to be bothered to convert their recipes into units of kilograms and liters, among other excuses. The power of resistance to change should seem especially obvious to anyone that reads this mailing list. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 15:49:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:49:22 -0700 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <5D456CEC-6AE1-4262-B5E5-32886CD714CD@microspot.co.uk> References: <200706291701.l5TH10ki065902@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <5D456CEC-6AE1-4262-B5E5-32886CD714CD@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <46850DE2.27004.1336DEA@cclist.sydex.com> While the main store on the IBM 650, didn't most of the installed base (eventually) also have 50 words of core as sort of a "scratchpad" memory? Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 15:59:59 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:59:59 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <200706291646.58456.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0706291325h5487c838mb95a027f7cfcb2d7@mail.gmail.com> <200706291646.58456.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0706291359o10058c37uaf47b33ca8eb0d88@mail.gmail.com> On 29/06/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > People don't want to be bothered to convert their recipes into units of > kilograms and liters, among other excuses. The power of resistance to > change should seem especially obvious to anyone that reads this mailing > list. :) Well, there /is/ that - but of course, nobody has to. Just about every domestic measuring device in my life is calibrated in imperial down one side and metric down the other. For most of my life, recipe books have come in both units. My scales aren't, but that's because they're Norwegian; all the Continental countries have been metric for centuries, as far as I know. -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Jun 29 16:10:57 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:57 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <200706291646.58456.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0706291325h5487c838mb95a027f7cfcb2d7@mail.gmail.com> <200706291646.58456.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <3b8e2745d888feecf368df90ad90265f@mac.com> > People don't want to be bothered to convert their recipes into units of > kilograms and liters, among other excuses. The power of resistance to > change should seem especially obvious to anyone that reads this mailing > list. : Try Ireland (eire) for size.. the speed limits and distances are in Kilometers, the cars indicate mile per hour.. go figure that for consistency... From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 29 16:11:40 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:11:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony switches)) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070629090137.06e81168@mail> Message-ID: <566176.61458.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> RLE4 and RLE8 are mentioned on a page about bitmaps. Never heard about RLE (0/1?) until now. GIF can't be too old as it uses LZW compression which IIRC was created by Welch in the early to mid 80's, based on the original algorithm by Lempel and Ziv. (I looked up compression techniques, studied and created by own LZW compression/decompression routines in late 2005 so I believe thats all correct) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk John Foust wrote: At 09:20 PM 6/28/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Hmm... I know that RLE pictures existed (before GIF), and were >monochrome, not color, but I don't recall experiencing them in 1982. >I'm positive that my BASIC terminal program knew nothing about them. >Perhaps the VidTex client I tested knew what to do with them, but I >don't remember ever viewing any on a C-64. >Does anyone have any RLE files or know more about when and in what >context they appeared (besides, obviously, just "on CIS"). Before researching, my memory was that they were first used for CIS weather maps. In my CCC archive, I found a '98 message between Merch and I that mentioned RLE files stored in his Tandy 600 archive, so I bet the Model 100 and CoCo people have archives, as they certainly have decoders. The Wikipedia entry for Compuserve isn't specific about when they released RLE. The run-length-encoding entry doesn't even mention it. Maybe I'll put it on my to-do list. For perspective, "medium" res was 128 x 96, "high" was 256 x 192. I was surprised to see that the O'Reilly Encyclopedia of Graphics File Formats (of which I was contributor and editor to the second edition) didn't even mention CIS RLE files. RLE is a common technique, so there's a chapter about RLE in general. You can certainly google a number of other references to RLE-based file formats from that decade (Utah Raster Toolkit, Wavefront .rla, etc.). GIF dates to 1987. I would guess RLE was at least three years older. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 29 16:48:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:48:35 -0600 Subject: OT: Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <3b8e2745d888feecf368df90ad90265f@mac.com> References: <468150F9.1109.291B4D9@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0706291325h5487c838mb95a027f7cfcb2d7@mail.gmail.com> <200706291646.58456.pat@computer-refuge.org> <3b8e2745d888feecf368df90ad90265f@mac.com> Message-ID: <46857E33.80505@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Pugh wrote: > Try Ireland (eire) for size.. > the speed limits and distances are in Kilometers, the cars indicate mile > per hour.. go figure that for > consistency... It depends who makes the cars I guess? But then OVER there, you would travel more by rail I guess. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 29 17:10:49 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:10:49 +0100 Subject: (another) Floppy disc reader status update and RFC In-Reply-To: <46805542.6060106@bitsavers.org> References: <46805542.6060106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46858369.2010306@philpem.me.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > I'm also thinking about an extension to the ImageDisk file format to > allow > > storage of raw MFM data, though I'm not sure how to go about doing > this... > > creating a whole new format may be a better idea. > > A common low-level format would be a good thing. I don't beleive it exsits > in the Catweasel world. I didn't see anything remotely resembling a 'standard' raw format - most of the CW dumps I've seen are of the form 'raw data from the CW's memory' and don't include any form of metadata (e.g. read clock rate, disc type, modulation, creator, what the disc is...) My plan is to have something like the ImageDisk format, but with some metadata extensions specific to raw data tracks -- clock speed, encoding format (if known), bit rate (again, if known), etc. Development is on hold for the minute as I've just had my main machine (Cheetah) floored by a hard drive failure - the whole RAID went down and took my data with it. None of the source code or schematic files have been lost or damaged - they were backed up onto a Subversion repository that's set up on the NAS (think of it as 'planning ahead' or just pessimism, either way works). Just my machine's a little crippled with only 80GB disc, and the new drives won't be here until Monday at the earliest, so it's unlikely I'll get much work done as my laptop isn't quite quick enough to run ISE. What's REALLY annoying is that one drive in the array packed in, the RAID switched into degraded mode, then the second drive packed in about half an hour later, well before I'd had chance to even order a replacement. One of the drives spins but is covered in bad sectors, the other one won't even spin. So chance of recovery is basically nil :( Sorry guys, you'll have to wait a little longer for your portable floppy disc readers.. :( -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 29 17:25:34 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:25:34 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706291243u4983997akffd8c88d756b4baf@mail.gmail.com> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070628183218.Y62520@shell.lmi.net> <46848505.2000606@oldskool.org> <575131af0706291243u4983997akffd8c88d756b4baf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <468586DE.8040509@oldskool.org> Liam Proven wrote: >> > While it is not hard to get CLOSE, Truly 100% compatability would >> > also require 100% copyright infringement. >> >> Then how was Compaq able to get around it? The original Compaq is the >> only compatible I've ever used that -- BASIC programs aside -- ran >> everything a real 5150 would, without exception. > > I bet it didn't have a ROM BASIC, for example - so it wouldn't load > BASIC programs from tape, like a real ib machine. But it did have a ROM BIOS, obviously. So the question still stands. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 18:09:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:09:54 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <468586DE.8040509@oldskool.org> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com>, <575131af0706291243u4983997akffd8c88d756b4baf@mail.gmail.com>, <468586DE.8040509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46852ED2.7309.1B414F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jun 2007 at 17:25, Jim Leonard wrote: > But it did have a ROM BIOS, obviously. So the question still stands. The answer's pretty simple. Compaq had the time and money to do it right. When IBM started suing clone makers for infringement over BIOS issues, Compaq did a "double-blind" clone of the 5150 BIOS. Two sets of programmers were used. The first studied the IBM BIOS and wrote up detailed specifications about its function, without including any code from the original. The second team coded a BIOS to these specs. Lather, rinse, repeat until right. IIRC, it cost Compaq about a million dollars and took a year. DTK did a similar effort, supported by a grant from the Taiwanese government. Now, of course, such an effort would be in violation of DMCA, but it worked back then. I'm surprised that no one did that with the Mac ROMs--anyone know why not? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 18:12:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:12:22 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <468586DE.8040509@oldskool.org> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com>, <575131af0706291243u4983997akffd8c88d756b4baf@mail.gmail.com>, <468586DE.8040509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46852F66.29193.1B657B1@cclist.sydex.com> I should hastily add that the Compaq story does seem to smack a bit of "urban legend", so there may be other takes on it. But that's what I heard at the time... Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 29 18:13:21 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:13:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: C= LED watch on epay... Message-ID: <718652.33942.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi folks, An official C= LED watch is up for grabs. But with the current bid at ?20 I think I'll opt out. Just 20 hours to go though... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/COMMODORE-LED-WATCH-RETRO-CLASSIC-AMIGA-C64_W0QQitemZ140132073262QQihZ004QQcategoryZ31387QQcmdZViewItem >From the description: "The watch is brand new, never been worn, the leather strap has never been used. The strap is black on the upper side and tan on the reverse. I have seen this style watch on the web for upwards of ?150. There is a low no reserve auction. There is no box just the watch. The watch battery is dead, but that can be changed by any local shop it is not a specialist job. However the watch is sold as seen as i cannot guarantee it because of the age, however from what i know it is in perfect working order. On the reverse of the watch is incribed: Commodore Hong Kong Case Stainless Steel Back Base Metal Bezel" Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 17:27:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:27:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <62DE2D6C-34FF-4537-87C2-3CC4CA153F1B@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 28, 7 07:24:27 pm Message-ID: > > Are you sure the AT has ROM BASIC? I don't remember that at all. Yes I am 100% sure my AT has ROM BASIC (that's the machine I am typing this on, BTW). It's the later (8MHz) model, so I assume the older ones had it too, certainly the manuals I have imply that. It's pretty hard to get to in most AT ystems because it'll boot from the floppy or hard drives rather than run ROM BASIC. But I suspect you could pull the disk cotnroller card and it'll go into BASIC. Another way to see it's got the ROM BASIC is that the same disk BASIC runs on the PC/XT?AT machines _but not on the compatibles_. The IBM disk BASIC is much shorter than the BASIC for compatibles becasue much of the BASIC is in ROM -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 17:17:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:17:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <002001c7b9c1$8ba0daf0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Jun 28, 7 09:18:51 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > I have a couple of the old GPO [1] Modem 2B units.... > > Brings back memories....the 2B was my first modem back in '85. Did you get it from 'Display Electronics'? They were advertising them at the time. I bought mine at a radio rally, and were alsmost certainly the end of the Display Electronics stock (I got some other things at the same rally that had been advertised previously by the said company). Incidentally, of my 2Bs as a 'GPO' badge on the front, the other has 'British Telecome'. Somewhere I have a D1200A modem (I forget the GPO designation). That's the same caxe, but with innards for a 1200 (transmit) 75 (receive) system. In other words the host end of Prestel. > Lots of fun, but not as convenient as one which responds to Hayes "AT" > commands. Depedns on what you want to use it for :-) > > I may still have some documentation somewhere if it's any use to you? I'd be interested in knowing what you've got, certainly... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 17:20:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:20:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: early modems / was Re: Telephony switches.. In-Reply-To: <4683B81A.2603.E48960@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 28, 7 01:31:06 pm Message-ID: > > Doesn anyone still have the do-it-yourself modem from Popular > Electronics, called the "Pennywhistle"? I rememebr the 'build your own modem for under $50' article in Byte (Circuit Cellar, of course). I also well rememebr the Maplin Modem (a build-it-yourself 300 baud direct connect unit). It used a 14412 for transmit, but they apparently couldn't get it to demodulate CCITT tones reliably, so they added a separate PLL chip for that (XR2211 or something like that). I may still have a couple of brand new, unpopulated, PCBs for this project somewhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 17:42:26 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:42:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <837885.39379.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jun 28, 7 05:32:50 pm Message-ID: > Well I guess it's a far gone conclusion that if the > box doesn't have an IBM 5150 style BIOS, it's not > going to run DOS. The HP110 and HP150 don't have an IBM style BIOS -- the techncial manuals make the point that they are not bios-function cmpatible with the PC. But they run (a customised version of) MS-DOS. There was even a Microsoft Windows 1.x for the HP150. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 18:11:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:11:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephony In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 29, 7 10:27:00 am Message-ID: > I was lucky to not have to resort to an acoustic coupler in the 300 > bps days - the VICmodem, for those that don't know it, attaches to the > user port of a VIC-20 or C-64, is fed 300 bps data through either a > 6522 (VIA) or 6526 (CIA) bit-banged TTL-levels, and converts to and That reminds me... Somewhere I have a C64 Prestel modem. I think it was a Commodore product, probably only sold in the UK. It seems to plug into the expansion bus, and contains, amongst other things, an SAA5070 'Lucy' chip, which was part of the Philips Teletext/Prestel chipset (the modem part of said chipset, of course). It's also a direct-connect unit, to a UK phone line. If anyone wants to know more, I'll try to digit it out and have a look at it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 17:32:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:32:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic HP forums?? - plotter questions In-Reply-To: <26117824.1183074422899.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Ashley Carder" at Jun 28, 7 07:47:02 pm Message-ID: > I am scanning the schematics right now and will post them > shortly. If somebody can take a look at them and decipher > them for me, that would be GREATLY appreciated! I've tried to look at them, but all I see is one schematic showing the overall wiring diagram, no schematics of the boards. I'll need that to make any sense of it. Maybe you scanned it as a multi-page jpeg, and maybe the viewer I tried in the local internet cafe couldn't handle that or soemthing. If so, if you can re-do it as seveal separate files, I'll take a look. Incidentally, somethign you might not know if you're not familiar with HP stuff is that they used a numeri code to indicage the colours of the wires. You read the digits as the resistor colour code. For example, a wire labelled 902 is white (9) with a main black (0) stripe and a second red (2) stripe. The main stripe is the wider one. But HP were normally sane enough not to use wries with te same colour stripes so that you had to distingish main from second (if you see what I mean), the wires 902 and 920 will not appear together. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 17:36:28 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:36:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <4683E87E.12820.1A18DDC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 28, 7 04:57:34 pm Message-ID: > > On 28 Jun 2007 at 23:06, Tony Duell wrote: > > > IIRC, cassette I/O went via a software interrupt (INT 15????). The > > routines in later BIOSes (XT, AT, etc) returned without doing anything, > > bnt since all said BIOSes supported extension ROMs, I see no good reason > > why you couldn't have a BIOS extension and a little hardware to add > > cassette I/O to the later machines, if you were insane enough to want it. > > Now you're being pedantic, Tony! i'm not aware of any stock plug-in You;'ve been on this list long enough to know that I'm often pedantic ;-) > adapter that gives one 5150-style cassette I/O on a 5160. I might as Nor am I. I was just saying it's possible, using documented software interfaces. > well claim that I could run Windows XP on a 5160, given the right > hardware and software additions. Oh come on. There's a big difference between writing an extension ROM, which follows a well-docuemtned pattern, to implement a well-documented function and replacing the procesosr, memory system (I doubt you'll get anywhere with XP in 640K), expanding the address bus, replacing the video system (XP won't run on nn MDA or CGA card), etc, etc, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 18:14:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:14:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP7202A Schematics questions In-Reply-To: <22303679.1183128724321.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Ashley Carder" at Jun 29, 7 10:52:04 am Message-ID: > > Can someone help me understand these old HP schematics? > I see the 15 adapter pins shown at the top right of the > page, and see where one of the pins (# 5) appears to go > to something labeled EIA IN on the "Logic Mother Board" FWIW, 'EIA' was commonly used at that time (particularly by HP) to mean what we'd normally call 'RS232; > section. Some pins (3, 4, and 6) appear to not be > connected to anything. Most of the others seem to go > to the Analog Mother Board, but I am not sure how to > follow them from there. What would be nice is if I Given the one sheet of schemaatic that I've seen, you can't. You need detailed schematics of the motherboards to trace the signals to pins on the plugin cards (I assuem) and then scheamtics of the approprtiate cards to see where they go in the 'real' electronics. Do you have that information? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 17:46:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:46:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <256704.27299.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jun 28, 7 05:20:09 pm Message-ID: > > > Goodbye, I'm not wasting any more breath.... > > Hey take care. A bit of advice for you on your > journey though. You can get sooo much more done if you > press the keys w/your fingers rather then blow on > them. You must be worn out! I rememebr there being devices (again I think one was described in a Circuit Cellar article in Byte) which allowed disabled people who had no use of their hands to enter text. Typically the various 'keys' would be shownn as an 8*8 matrix, there being an LED fro each row and one for each column. The device would, say, scan the columns (lighting each LED in turn) until it got a single-switch input from the user. It would then scan the rows until it got another input, then it would enter the character so selected and go back to scanning the columns. One possible input device was a pressure switch operated by blowing or sucking. Maybe the OP has to use such a device, in which case all power to him ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 18:00:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:00:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <402265.60711.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jun 28, 7 05:44:10 pm Message-ID: > Yep. Question is what IBMer was the last to feature > it... No idea > > Another trivia question: did any other non-IBM *pc > compatibles* have a rom based BASIC... I thought one clone had a pirate copy of the IBM ROMs inside (including Microsoft BASIC) until IBM/Microsoft (wuite rightly) came down on them. Wasn't there at least one other PC clone to have a legal ROM BASIC? > > And...what was the first computer *any* to have a > rom-BASIC HP9830? (end of 1972). Maybe some Wang machine? > > FURTHERMORE...what was the last computer *any* to > have it? Does anyone (Casio?) still make handheld BASIC programmable 'calculators'? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 17:53:35 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:53:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 28, 7 06:56:54 pm Message-ID: > > > Has anyone ever built a spherical computer? That'd be interesting... > > dead easy to move around, too :-) > > "Give me a place to stand, and I'll move the world." - Archimedes I beleive he asked for a long lever as well.. I've thought about this, and I don't beleive he could move the world significantly. To exert enough force on the earth, he would have to have a termenous mechancial advantage (I think I estiameted 10^9 times). And since a lever doesn't increase energy, he'd have to move his hand through 10^19 times the distance the earth moved. Or 1 million metres to move the earth 1mm. Maybe first-year physics students should be asked to commoent on Archimedes' statement :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 18:03:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:03:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <900916.41812.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jun 28, 7 11:45:10 pm Message-ID: > > You don't need an IBM compatible BIOS to run > > MS-DOS.... > > care to share an example? HP110, HP110+. HP150, HP150-II, Sirius (Victor 9000), Apricot, DEC Rainbow, etc, etc, etc. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 29 18:35:02 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46848505.2000606@oldskool.org> References: <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070628183218.Y62520@shell.lmi.net> <46848505.2000606@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070629162744.V17251@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > Then how was Compaq able to get around it? The original Compaq is the > only compatible I've ever used that -- BASIC programs aside -- ran > everything a real 5150 would, without exception. ALMOST everything. Check the 1983? PC-WORLD "round up the compatibles", in which like every other non-IBM machine, the Compaq filed to be able to run the "OEM IBM ONLY" edition of Xeno-Copy. howzbout the undocumented "Model ID" in ROM? No sane programmer used that, due to the fact that IBM did not originally document it, and so machines intended to be compatible did not implement it. Not all of us are sane. BTW, in August 1983, I used a Compaq for MOST of the programming of Xeno-Write. Nice machine, but the handle was too flexible for serious carrying, and the latches of the keyboard do not extend far enough (to keep the keyboard from getting knocked off by a bump against an airport escalator) Yes, I will be pedantic, and insist that there ARE exceptions. Fortunately none that really matter. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 29 18:43:27 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:43:27 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14FE4030-819A-4B8E-AA41-13392E947A18@neurotica.com> On Jun 29, 2007, at 6:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Are you sure the AT has ROM BASIC? I don't remember that at all. > > Yes I am 100% sure my AT has ROM BASIC (that's the machine I am typing > this on, BTW). It's the later (8MHz) model, so I assume the older ones > had it too, certainly the manuals I have imply that. Neat! I used one for years, at a fairly technical level, and never knew that. > It's pretty hard to get to in most AT ystems because it'll boot > from the > floppy or hard drives rather than run ROM BASIC. But I suspect you > could > pull the disk cotnroller card and it'll go into BASIC. ...and that's probably why I never knew it. ;) > Another way to see it's got the ROM BASIC is that the same disk BASIC > runs on the PC/XT?AT machines _but not on the compatibles_. The IBM > disk > BASIC is much shorter than the BASIC for compatibles becasue much > of the > BASIC is in ROM Ahh yes I remember that...I had an XT clone for a while (an 8MHz V20; quite the screamer at the time!) and I managed to find copies of the IBM BIOS w/BASIC, and ran those in the board...worked nicely. As I recall, the BIOS was one EPROM and the BASIC interpreter was the other four, and they were optional. I recall something about BASIC.COM (or was it BASICA.COM?) being basically a wrapper around the stuff in the ROMs...Did it add any routines like disk I/O or anything like that? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 29 18:43:17 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 hack In-Reply-To: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: > any thoughts? And although he claimed the 2000 never > generated a NMI, won't a parity error always do this? If running 8 bit memory (without a parity bit), parity errors "NEVER HAPPEN"! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 29 18:51:53 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <608355.75534.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <608355.75534.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070629164330.A17251@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: > Can you name specific examples of programs that if > we're *allowed* to run would place the designer in the > danger zone? It is possible for non-BASIC programs to call subroutines in the BASIC ROMs directly to their addresses. The Vertex "OEM IBM ONLY" edition of Xeno-Copy, which was supposed to never be released, but was used by PC-WORLD in a January 1983? comparison of compatibles. All early versions of XenoCopy would run on an 8088, but not 8086 or above, due to my failure to prepare for a change in the size of the pre-fetch buffer. I will accept the title of "pedantic". There DO exit exceptions, just not any that matter. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Jun 29 19:10:33 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 01:10:33 +0100 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: References: <002001c7b9c1$8ba0daf0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706291710w1afcd98vccd41a595f296aa9@mail.gmail.com> On 29/06/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I have a couple of the old GPO [1] Modem 2B units.... > > > > Brings back memories....the 2B was my first modem back in '85. > > Did you get it from 'Display Electronics'? They were advertising them at > the time. I bought mine at a radio rally, and were alsmost certainly the > end of the Display Electronics stock (I got some other things at the same > rally that had been advertised previously by the said company). > Incidentally, of my 2Bs as a 'GPO' badge on the front, the other has > 'British Telecome'. > I had a 2B - bought from Display! GPO badge... I ran a BBS on it for several years (the BBC micro sat on top of it!) until I got a prototype nightingale auto-answer from Pace. I remember being fascinated by the kit they had available, but it was tricky enough getting the 2B home to Manchester.. I seem to recall I persuading my mother to take me there on one of our periodic "holidays" in London; I don't think either of us anticipated the size of the thing!! Rob From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 19:15:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <0D7F24B8-7009-44E2-9332-B6BDDF581C18@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <119243.87669.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> > > to check. The Vesta board used battery backed > static > > ram to begin with... > > For the whole system memory, or just a protected > area? Yep, fwir. Don't have that issue in front of me...I'll see it tomorrow, but yeah, no dynamic ram *hassles* simplifies a design. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 29 19:28:57 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:28:57 -0400 Subject: Tandy 2000 hack In-Reply-To: <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jun 29, 2007, at 7:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> any thoughts? And although he claimed the 2000 never >> generated a NMI, won't a parity error always do this? > > If running 8 bit memory (without a parity bit), parity errors "NEVER > HAPPEN"! *snicker* I see I'm not the only one who's drinking tonight. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 19:28:34 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:28:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: HP7202A Schematics questions Message-ID: <18482630.1183163315154.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Can someone help me understand these old HP schematics? >> I see the 15 adapter pins shown at the top right of the >> page, and see where one of the pins (# 5) appears to go >> to something labeled EIA IN on the "Logic Mother Board" > >FWIW, 'EIA' was commonly used at that time (particularly by HP) to mean >what we'd normally call 'RS232; > >> section. Some pins (3, 4, and 6) appear to not be >> connected to anything. Most of the others seem to go >> to the Analog Mother Board, but I am not sure how to >> follow them from there. What would be nice is if I > >Given the one sheet of schemaatic that I've seen, you can't. You need >detailed schematics of the motherboards to trace the signals to pins on >the plugin cards (I assuem) and then scheamtics of the approprtiate cards >to see where they go in the 'real' electronics. > >Do you have that information? I have spent a little more time looking at the information that I have. My documentation does not include detailed board schematics. However, these boards do not look extremely complex. I have figured out how the pins on the interface are numbered. The top left pin is #1 and the second (lower) row contains pins 9 thru 15 (left to right). I have followed these wires from the adapter to the board, where they are connected. At the point of connection, there is a number like 901, 902, 905, etc. I also found a page in another manual that shows how to hook the interface cable to an ASR-33. It has an "in-line" molex style adapter. I need to look at that connector on the ASR33 and see how many wires it contains. Tony probably knows that answer off the top of his head. It's suppertime. I'll do more digging later. I also will photograph the boards that these wires run into on the plotter. Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 19:43:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <009301c7ba87$cb808fa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <651492.35085.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > > >> You don't need an IBM compatible BIOS to run > >>MS-DOS.... > > > care to share an example? > > Victor 9000/Sirius 1 Loads bios from disk like a Tandy 2000. And the T2K is one of the most compatible of the pseudos at the BIOS/DOS level > ACT Apricot PC series/ "F" series / "Xen" series > (prior to "Xen-i") Not sure. > DEC Rainbow Doesn't have bios calls at all? > Sanyo MBC-555 I'd be real surprised if it was true of this one. > and many, *many* more....I.E. MS-DOS<>IBM > compatible! Name them. I think you're totally *totally* exaggerating. > Oh, and there's also the "Gazelle" from "Seattle > Computer" circa 1979; an > 8088 based S-100(!) machine, and the machine which > MS-DOS was actually > developed on! True, but that was pre-DOS 1.0. I guess there are exceptions (there are always a few scant exceptions) but I'd be surprised to learn that most versions of MS-DOS don't rely on BIOS code at all. But I could stand to learn something there I guess. I want to hear from Chuck and Fred on this one. Anyone can quote from wikipedia (often of dubious value). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 29 19:45:35 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 01:45:35 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: <900916.41812.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0706291304od88ac6bud833ae223f6f2db4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <018501c7baaf$f9a4aab0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, >....the ACT Apricots didn't run /the IBM version/ of MS-DOS - >they had their own special edition, AFAIK.... Their own special version in as much as each CP/M system having it's "own version" of CP/M. MS-DOS was such a blatant copy of CP/M, that you could tailor it to your target hardware in much the same way you did with CP/M. You pretty much just needed to produce a custom "IO.SYS" for your hardware and you were away - in the early days at least. >....they did I believe have a BIOS, again, their own one, not >an IBM or compatible BIOS. Correct, the BIOS was very much their of their own design. In terms of their architecture, about the only similarity between the IBM PC and the Apricot is that they use the i8088. Other than that.... >....can one run the PC edition of MS-DOS on a machine with no BIOS >at all.... I don't believe so; even if you could somehow coax the machine to boot without a BIOS, I believe MS-DOS requires its presence. >....with a non-PC-compatible BIOS? Depends which version of MS-DOS, I believe that at some point (MS-DOS 4?) M$ made it IBM only. You'd also have to produce your own custom "IO.SYS", and I'm not sure if "MSDOS.SYS" isn't involved here too. TTFN - Pete. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 19:53:17 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <575131af0706291304od88ac6bud833ae223f6f2db4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <759735.99156.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Liam Proven wrote: > On 29/06/07, Richard wrote: > > > > In article > <900916.41812.qm at web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, > > Chris M writes: > > > > > > > > --- Ensor > wrote: > > > > You don't need an IBM compatible BIOS to run > > > > MS-DOS.... > > > > > > care to share an example? > > > > Apricot PCs. They were MS-DOS compatible, but not > BIOS compatible. What do you mean by MS-DOS compatible (specifically)? Think about it. > Well, true, but you're indulging in some sophistry > there. For one, the > ACT Apricots didn't run /the IBM version/ of MS-DOS > - they had their > own special edition, AFAIK. For a second, they did I > believe have a > BIOS, again, their own one, not an IBM or compatible > BIOS. Remember, I didn't originally state "IBM compatible" bios, but rather IBM style BIOS. In essence I guess they could be thought of as saying the same thing - if a program accesses hardware through a particular call present in the 5150's bios, and it doesn't crash, it could be said that the computer has an IBM compatible bios. The Tandy 2000s bios is largely "IBM compatible" in that sense, but the hardware varies significantly from a 5150. > If the question were rephrased more specifically and > precisely: can > one run the PC edition of MS-DOS on a machine with > no BIOS at all or > with a non-PC-compatible BIOS? The question comes down to this: does DOS in a more or less stock configuration (whatever that entails) calls the hardware through BIOS calls (loading a register, generating and INT ?). How hacked up dos DOS have to be in order to run on a puter w/no BIOS at all (and I have to wonder if there are such machines. I could stand to learn something, but I'm skeptical at this point). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 19:58:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <20070629164330.A17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <58599.42162.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > All early versions of XenoCopy would run on an 8088, > but not 8086 or > above, due to my failure to prepare for a change in > the size of the > pre-fetch buffer. Oi I would not have guessed that the size of the queue would affect program operation in any way. But wasn't the 8086 released first? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 20:02:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <018501c7baaf$f9a4aab0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <664008.68512.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ensor wrote: > You'd also have to produce your own custom "IO.SYS", > and I'm not sure if > "MSDOS.SYS" isn't involved here too. MSDOS.SYS is the basis for making DOS function calls, no? So therefore if your hardware differed from a 5150s, you'd have to also rewrite that I suppose. IO.SYS likewise provides the basis for making BIOS calls. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jun 29 20:13:52 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:13:52 -0400 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephonyswitches)) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:03:27 PDT." <4684E6FF.21758.9B8AC7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706300113.l5U1Dq9l008108@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >Was anyone else a customer of Call Computer in Mountain View, CA >during the 70's? CALL/370? I used it. All 300 baud :-) wish I had not tossed out that AJ acoustic coupler. -brad From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 20:14:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:14:20 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <4683E87E.12820.1A18DDC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 28, 7 04:57:34 pm, Message-ID: <46854BFC.17334.22602D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jun 2007 at 23:36, Tony Duell wrote: > Oh come on. There's a big difference between writing an extension ROM, > which follows a well-docuemtned pattern, to implement a well-documented > function and replacing the procesosr, memory system (I doubt you'll get > anywhere with XP in 640K), expanding the address bus, replacing the video > system (XP won't run on nn MDA or CGA card), etc, etc, etc. And yet, that's pretty close to what some folks were doing. ;) Witness the Microsoft Mach 20 (80286, memory, floppy (HD support)) or the Intel Inboard 386 PC/XT. Folks were willing to spend a lot to keep that funky 5160 case! :) Cheers, Chuck From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jun 29 10:53:31 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:53:31 -0700 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46852AFB.30403@garlic.com> JP Hindin wrote: > > So, anyone out there have one of these in their... basement? > I was offered an old, old Strowger switch from a small indy telco once when they upgraded to a Siemens electronic PBX. Would have got all the spares, too. My apartment wasn't big enough, though. Besides, there was a noise ordinance. I hear they are worth quite a bit as collectibles, now, like 14-inch Winchesters and core planes. (still kicking meself for that!) But I do have enough room for a 5E now! Seems like I'm always being offered stuff when I either have no way to get it or no place to put it, like that Sikorsky airframe, or those Hiller airframes when Hiller closed down in San Carlos or that surplus tank and DUKW headed to the junkyard, etc. Could have been the only kid in the neighbourhood--in town, even, with helicopters and a tank in his back yard. == jd If a putt passes over the hole without dropping, it is deemed to have dropped. The law of gravity holds that any object attempting to maintain a position in the atmosphere without something to support it must drop. The law of gravity supersedes the law of golf. -- Donald A. Metz From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jun 29 11:33:09 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:33:09 -0700 Subject: (way OT)--Re: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0706270518s47d2995bv4951d093dfb3b77e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0706260814hf175c34x726bc96f7a80e04f@mail.gmail.com> <8B5E9E17-FC74-49F9-9EB2-01A3AE8213BE@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e0706270518s47d2995bv4951d093dfb3b77e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46853445.2030005@garlic.com> Jason McBrien wrote: > > The HP 100 series were some of the first laptop computers that could run > DOS. It had DOS, Basic, Lotus and a few other productivity apps in ROM, and > used the somewhat odd HP-IL bus to interface with peripherals, among them a > battery powered disk drive. > Hmmm... HPIL -> HPHIL -> + -> USB? | PCI (just a dash of) I wonder... == jd Don't get suckered in by the comments -- they can be terribly misleading. Debug only code. -- Dave Storer From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jun 29 12:08:10 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:08:10 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <062820071545.27651.4683D79A000748CD00006C0322134843739DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> References: <062820071545.27651.4683D79A000748CD00006C0322134843739DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <46853C7A.4080504@garlic.com> feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > > The HP 100LX/200LX palmtops used a custom 80186 and ran most DOS applications, running MS-DOS 5.0 from ROM. There could be problems with the LX's graphics, which was 640x200 CGA with some quirks. > Reminds me: The HP Omnibook 530, a 486SX20 and 4Mb SRAM, unlighted reflective mono VGA, 4 PCMCIA slots, one bootable Maxtor 130Mb PCMCIA hard disk in a tray and a pop-out mouse on a stick, ran MSDOS5 and Win3.10, had Word + Excel installed. Powered by a 600MaH NiCd battery, ran for about 15-20 minutes on a brand-new, fully charged battery, noticeably less on recharges. Original price was something like $1300, IIRC. It could be turned off without being shut down then turned on and it would resume from where you left off, and the fully charged battery would save state for about 3 days or so. This little beastie was around 1x10x6 inches and weighed about 2 to 3 pounds, IIRC. Replacing the hard disk with a flash card extended the battery to about 2 hours running DOS, or about an hour in windoze. HP briefly published a PDF of the tech manual for it a few years back. == jd As long as the answer is right, who cares if the question is wrong? From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jun 29 11:45:41 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:45:41 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46822D2B.27636.2D8302@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com>, <8B5E9E17-FC74-49F9-9EB2-01A3AE8213BE@neurotica.com>, <5f7d1b0e0706270518s47d2995bv4951d093dfb3b77e@mail.gmail.com> <46822D2B.27636.2D8302@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46853735.2050506@garlic.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > For "near-PC-compatibles", how about the Eagle 1600, Olympia People, > Apricot--and did anyone mention the HP 110? > THe HP-100 series was mentioned... (The 120 and 125 were CP/M machines...) The 110 and 150 would run DOS programs but not (most) PC-compatible DOS programs, especially those that dealt directly with hardware. IIRC, there were more limitations and/or incompatibilities with the 110 than with the 150. There was a IBMPC emulator (or was it called something else--can't recall but I have it somewhere) for the 150. Worked best with the full 640K installed. Mostly hooked BIOS and PC-specific DOS calls, translated the character set and faked some hardware a bit. Did not work with programs that talked directly to hardware. == jd "The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a bit longer." -- Henry Kissinger From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jun 29 08:53:22 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:53:22 -0700 Subject: Best solvent to remove sticky tape residue. In-Reply-To: <4682D5F4.31460.2C0CE4D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46827153.3040007@garlic.com> <4682D5F4.31460.2C0CE4D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46850ED2.5060009@garlic.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Jun 2007 at 7:16, jd wrote: > >> So what removes the harder-than-epoxy dried out duct tape adhesive easily? > > Have you tried using a steam cleaner? I've heard that it works > better than any solvent, but have no direct experience. > --Wow! I shoulda stayed at a Holiday Inn... (^_^) Why didn't I think of that? I haven't used steam in a long time, since it seemed to fail at just about everything else I tried it on. All you are saying... Is give steam a chance... OK! == jd If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton In the sciences, we are now uniquely privileged to sit side by side with the giants on whose shoulders we stand. -- Gerald Holton If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders. -- Hal Abelson In computer science, we stand on each other's feet. -- Brian K. Reid From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jun 29 10:12:31 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:12:31 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46831F16.9070805@oldskool.org> References: <468119A5.7935.1B99783@cclist.sydex.com>, <4682A7FC.7090304@yahoo.co.uk>, <46830C2C.3060806@oldskool.org> <4682B190.15785.232A8B6@cclist.sydex.com> <46831F16.9070805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4685215F.4030100@garlic.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 27 Jun 2007 at 20:17, Jim Leonard wrote: >> >>> Could you elaborate? I've never found a single program that will >>> work on, say, my 5150 but not my 5155 or 5160... >> >> Including ROM BASIC that writes and reads cassette tapes? > > You're being pedantic :-) I've never come across an IBM PC program on > cassette tape, and I'm betting 99% of the list hasn't either :) Count me out of that 99%. Add me to the list that ran across (and used) programs on audio cassette for HP, DG and DEC minis. And to the list that had to reprogram a cassette after someone accidentally pressed RECORD instead of PLAY while booting. On the front panel, of course. 3 programs, 16K+ instructions each over 9 days... the panel 20inches above the floor... (@_@) I think I still have a "word processor" for the 5150 on disk that will not run on anything but a 5150 with _one_ original IBM floppy, 64K, ROM BASIC, and the original mono display. PCDOS1 only, of course. == jd Never let your schooling interfere with your education. From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jun 29 11:48:41 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:48:41 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468537E9.1020302@garlic.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 6/26/07, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> The last of the PS/2's had some strange designs. >>> I like that mechanical linkage running from the front to a physical switch >>> at the rear. Now THAT had style. >> The Amiga 3000 had that sort of thing, too... a latching pushbutton >> mounted right on the PSU, activated by a pushrod and a button on the >> front of the machine. I think at the time, I heard it was to satisfy > > Some of the HP disk and tape 'shoeboxes' (9133J, 9142, etc) did something > similar. There's an SMPSU board that runs the whole deptho of the case, > with the mains input connector soldered to it (when the PSU is in place, > this lines up with a hole in the case). The on-off switch is also near > the back of the PCB with a plastic pushrod linking it to the button on > the front. > IIRC, the HP-150C had the same kind of power switch. The 150A & B's had the power switch on the back, next to the power connector. It's been a loooong time since I took a 150C apart. == jd Bureaucrat, n.: A person who cuts red tape sideways. -- J. McCabe From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 20:18:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:18:32 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <651492.35085.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <009301c7ba87$cb808fa0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk>, <651492.35085.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46854CF8.6451.229D9B6@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jun 2007 at 17:43, Chris M wrote: > I want to hear from Chuck and Fred on this one. > Anyone can quote from wikipedia (often of dubious value). There should be plenty of literature still kicking around for the NEC 9801 series. Ran a special (Microsoft-sanctioned) version of MS-DOS and even Windows NT. ...and at least for DOS, I/O was performed through BIOS ROM calls. The video was wildly different; I/O port assignments were different; even diskette formats were different. But it was MS-DOS--and NEC had almost 70% of the Japanese PC market. I think some 9801 models even used the NEC V-series (e.g. V70) processors. Cheers, Chuck From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jun 29 12:21:03 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:21:03 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0706270518s47d2995bv4951d093dfb3b77e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0706260553s61634facpcb4a436ce2b4048c@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0706260814hf175c34x726bc96f7a80e04f@mail.gmail.com> <8B5E9E17-FC74-49F9-9EB2-01A3AE8213BE@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e0706270518s47d2995bv4951d093dfb3b77e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46853F7F.3000408@garlic.com> Also, hardly classic but it is unusual and interesting: (SonicBlue) ProGear tablet based on the TransMeta Crusoe CPU It is now a rare toy originally running Win98 and people have installed DOS, ME, and XP on it. It's a nice, lightweight tablet with a 10" XVGA colour touchscreen. It seems fairly well built to me. (Maybe it was too well built?) It looks somewhat like a digital picture frame. Ahead of it's time, I would say. Maybe a future classic? == jd Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least one instruction -- from which, by induction, one can deduce that every program can be reduced to one instruction which doesn't work. From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jun 29 11:17:22 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:17:22 -0700 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <200706271634.l5RGYqVT096889@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200706271634.l5RGYqVT096889@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <46853092.5000700@garlic.com> Bob Bradlee wrote: > > How about early modems, anyone collect them ? > > Bob > Not so much as collectibles but I have a couple Telebits, a couple Bell 212 "Hayes compatibles", others ranging from 300baud to 14.4bps, and a bunch of Xecom 1201's that I had hoped were 1203's. Managed to get the Xe1201 to work with a C64... Had some acoustic modems from a KSR33, etc. But rats got at them. I guess they got mad when I cleaned up the mess they made of the styrofoam... Would like to find some of those Bell103/202 portable acoustic modems with the individual cups that fit over the handset transmitter and receivers--er, mic and ear. Even just the coupler parts--cups with transducers--would be fine. == jd On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jun 29 11:27:32 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:27:32 -0700 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256E8E@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256E8E@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <468532F4.6050308@garlic.com> James Fogg wrote: > > I'm into telephony, but not on the CO-sized equipment. I've had many > PBX's in my houses over the years. Everything from an AT&T 1A2 system > (relay based) to an AT&T System 75. Along the way I've had AT&T, > Siemens, Nortel, Lucent, Iwatsu, Mitel, NEC and others. > Is that 1A2 a KSU with the big, tall relays with "wire-and-hammer" contacts? Used to have fun manually operating those. Drove the sales counter people nuts. (^_^) == jd "Not Hercules could have knock'd out his brains, for he had none." -- Shakespeare From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jun 29 09:29:50 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:29:50 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4227F2D5-AC22-4C20-8904-D4C7EF6CEF49@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4685175E.1080909@garlic.com> I was thinking about mentioning some odd machines I've seen, like... analog+digital frankensteins a stored program process controller made up entirely of relays a programmable calculator that was made up entirely of relays Does the CompuCorp desktop programmable calculator with the Hollerith card reader count? Surely the HP65 does not count... How about a 6-bit computer made of transistors and programmed by plugboard? It was "homemade" and used point-to-point wiring in a steel chassis like the older TV's. Or a "tiny" 5-bit computer based on vacuum tubes that could fit in a large-ish briefcase? Or maybe a portable 4-bit computer made of vacuum tubes with a huge array of toggle switches and a tape loop in a Baudot tape reader for program store? Dunno... Probably not very on topic... == jd PL/1, "the fatal disease", belongs more to the problem set than to the solution set. -- E. W. Dijkstra From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 20:20:44 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:20:44 -0500 Subject: Linux PCB CAD software? In-Reply-To: <01ac01c7ba6f$759936e0$2084b044@netgear> Message-ID: Take a look at the gEDA suite for Linux. I have it running on FreeBSD too. Schematic capture looks like it outputs every netlist format. DJ Delorie has an autorouter There are hooks for FPGA Verilog too. Randy >From: "Bruce Ray" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Linux PCB CAD software? >Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:03:45 -0600 > >Before leaving the RX01 topic, note that Chuck's design was implemented >using the Cadsoft Eagle years ago and is available at: > >http://www.wildharecomputers.com/download/rx0x/rx01-b.zip > >A minor update is at: > >http://www.wildharecomputers.com/download/rx0x/rx01-d.zip > >The idea of putting an SX-28 processor in control of the communications and >using a native USB interface resulted in the (untested) derivative design >at: > >http://www.wildharecomputers.com/download/rx0x/rx-usb.zip > >and notes and general comments for these designs are at: > >http://www.wildharecomputers.com/download/rx0x/notes.txt > >And I would seriously consider Diptrace (www.diptrace.com) if I had to look >at CAD software today, especially compared to Eagle's interface. > >Okay, I focus on Data General Novas, Eclipses and MVs, but I teethed on >PDP-8s before 1969... ;-) > >Bruce > > >Bruce Ray >Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. >bkr at WildHareComputers.com > >...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 12:33 AM >Subject: Re: Linux PCB CAD software? > > >>On Jun 28, 2007, at 3:20 PM, Allison wrote: >>>>> To bring this at least slightly on-topic, I am midway through >>>>>doing a board layout for Chuck Dickman's RX01/02<->parallel port >>>>>interface in gschem and PCB. >>> >>>Where is this information on the net? >> >> Chuck's project is detailed here: http://www.chd.dyndns.org/rx02/ >> >> -Dave >> >>-- >>Dave McGuire >>Port Charlotte, FL >> > _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Fri Jun 29 20:22:01 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 02:22:01 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? References: Message-ID: <019201c7bab5$1086b8e0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > One possible input device was a pressure switch operated by >blowing or sucking. > Maybe the OP has to use such a device, in which case all power >to him ;-) 8-D TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 20:23:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:23:11 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <14FE4030-819A-4B8E-AA41-13392E947A18@neurotica.com> References: , <14FE4030-819A-4B8E-AA41-13392E947A18@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46854E0F.17455.22E1AB3@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jun 2007 at 19:43, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Yes I am 100% sure my AT has ROM BASIC (that's the machine I am typing > > this on, BTW). It's the later (8MHz) model, so I assume the older ones > > had it too, certainly the manuals I have imply that. My first 80286 AT system was based around a Faraday "A Tease" board that I bought sans BIOS ROMs. I copied the BIOS code using DEBUG from a genuine PC-AT onto a floppy and burned my own ROMs for the Faraday. Worked fine and had 2 serial and 1 parallel port already on the mobo. I used it until I upgraded to a 386 board. I still have the schematics for it. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 29 20:30:19 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <58599.42162.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <58599.42162.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070629182142.Y17251@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: > Oi I would not have guessed that the size of the > queue would affect program operation in any way. But > wasn't the 8086 released first? How would you write a subroutine (for C) that would permit calling an INT that is defined at runtime? (I didn't know any better ways at the time) . . . MOV BX, offset stepon3 INC BX MOV [BX], AL ; change the INT to the one specified in AL . . . stepon3: INT 00h . . . It is easily fixed to handle a different prefetch buffer size by: . . . MOV BX, offset stepon3 INC BX MOV [BX], AL ; change the INT to the one specified in AL . . . JMP SHORT $ +2 ; or JMP stepon3 ; clears the prefetch buffer ; and does little else stepon3: INT 00h . . . "Do NOT ever use self-modifying code. It may not happen for a LONG time, but it WILL eventually come back to bite your foot off." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 20:30:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:30:53 -0700 Subject: Dialling up in 1982 (was Re: old modems (was Telephonyswitches)) In-Reply-To: <200706300113.l5U1Dq9l008108@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: >, <200706300113.l5U1Dq9l008108@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <46854FDD.6136.235277B@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jun 2007 at 21:13, Brad Parker wrote: > CALL/370? No--"Call Computer" in Mountain View (a real hole-in-the-wall), circa (for me) about 1975. I think they used DG equipment. The Homebrew crowd used to exchange files there. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 20:33:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:33:57 -0700 Subject: C= LED watch on epay... In-Reply-To: <718652.33942.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <718652.33942.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46855095.28020.237F7A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jun 2007 at 0:13, Andrew Burton wrote: > An official C= LED watch is up for grabs. But with the current bid at ?20 I think I'll opt out. Just 20 hours to go though... You know, I opened the bottom drawer of a filing cabinet the other day and discovered that it was lined with a few pages of the San Jose Mercury News advertising the Commodore watch for $14.95 at Mr. Calculator. I really need to clean up my files... Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 29 20:35:30 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <14FE4030-819A-4B8E-AA41-13392E947A18@neurotica.com> References: <14FE4030-819A-4B8E-AA41-13392E947A18@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070629183338.Y17251@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ahh yes I remember that...I had an XT clone for a while (an 8MHz > V20; quite the screamer at the time!) and I managed to find copies of > the IBM BIOS w/BASIC, and ran those in the board...worked nicely. As > I recall, the BIOS was one EPROM and the BASIC interpreter was the > other four, and they were optional. ahh, but do you know WHY the 5150 had those 5 ROMs, but 6 ROM sockets? > I recall something about BASIC.COM (or was it BASICA.COM?) being > basically a wrapper around the stuff in the ROMs...Did it add any > routines like disk I/O or anything like that? YES. It even replaced a few routines that didn't work right -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 29 20:48:56 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <198395.92299.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <198395.92299.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070629184522.S17251@shell.lmi.net> > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I've got a fax-capture box ... On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: > I want one I have a "Printer Pal" from HP that interrupts the cable between PC and Deskjet (not sure which models) and to phone line to do incoming faxes on the printer -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jun 29 20:53:12 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:53:12 -0500 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4685B788.6060307@pacbell.net> ... >> And...what was the first computer *any* to have a >> rom-BASIC > > HP9830? (end of 1972). Maybe some Wang machine? The first Wang machine with BASIC in ROM was the 2200. Wang had a history of preannouncing products, so it is a bit unclear what date to use, but spring 1973 seems to be when they were really shipping units. The 2200 used about 200 TTL parts for the main CPU, plus a lot of low density ROMS and DRAM for the BASIC ROM and program memories, another 80 chips or so to generate video out. All of it fit into a small metal "suitcase." I'd be curious to know how fast the 9830 was in comparison. This small program: 10 T=0 20 FOR I=1 TO 10000 30 T=T+I 40 NEXT I 50 PRINT T 60 END takes about 90 seconds to run on the 2200T (btw, everything is double precision BCD). You can see more detailed timing on each BASIC operation here: http://www.wang2200.org/performance.html The 2200 was preceded by the 3300. Wang started accepting orders for it in 1970, but machines didn't ship until sometime in 1971. The 3300 loaded BASIC from paper tape, and later cassette. I believe they eventually offered a ROM BASIC for the 3300, but it was too late to do any good. From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 21:16:05 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:16:05 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: HP7202A Schematics questions Message-ID: <29526404.1183169765699.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I've taken some pictures of the inside of the plotter and close-ups of the interface assembly card, which is where most of the wires from the interface connector go to. Perhaps someone will see something that makes sense to them. I also opened up an ASR-33 teletype and looked at the connector where the plotter interface cable plugs in. It is a 9 pin molex connector, with 8 pins being used. I *can* find documentation on that somewhere in one of my teletype manuals. Pictures can be seen at the bottom of: http://www.woffordwitch.com/HP7202.asp Ashley http://www.woffordwitch.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 29 21:19:21 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:19:21 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070629183338.Y17251@shell.lmi.net> References: <14FE4030-819A-4B8E-AA41-13392E947A18@neurotica.com> <20070629183338.Y17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jun 29, 2007, at 9:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Ahh yes I remember that...I had an XT clone for a while (an 8MHz >> V20; quite the screamer at the time!) and I managed to find copies of >> the IBM BIOS w/BASIC, and ran those in the board...worked nicely. As >> I recall, the BIOS was one EPROM and the BASIC interpreter was the >> other four, and they were optional. > > ahh, but do you know WHY the 5150 had those 5 ROMs, but 6 ROM sockets? No, but I'm betting you do. Care to share? ;) >> I recall something about BASIC.COM (or was it BASICA.COM?) >> beingbasically a wrapper around the stuff in the ROMs...Did it add >> any >> routines like disk I/O or anything like that? > > YES. > It even replaced a few routines that didn't work right It's nice that the original interpreter was designed to accommodate such enhancements! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 29 21:23:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:23:00 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:53:17 -0700. <759735.99156.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <759735.99156.qm at web61024.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > > > Apricot PCs. They were MS-DOS compatible, but not > > BIOS compatible. > > What do you mean by MS-DOS compatible (specifically)? > Think about it. I can tell you that software that talked to the system through MS-DOS and BIOS interrupts worked properly, but software that depended on entry points in the BIOS at specific addresses, or hardware located at specific addresses failed. In other words if you "stuck to the API", your application would run. If you "accessed the hardware directly", your application would most likely not run. I've got an Apricot "Microsoft Pack" manual sitting right here in front of me. It included MS-DOS, "various utilities" (edlin, etc.) and GW-BASIC. It *is* MS-DOS from Microsoft, not from someone else. It *isn't* an IBM PC compatible BIOS. I don't have any detailed specifications on how the hardware differed other than the BIOS. The earlier assertion that it was miles away from an IBM PC just isn't true. Peripherals and drivers from 3rd party manufacturers worked just fine in all the configurations we sold at the store where I worked (the only Apricot dealer in Delaware). It was the software that was always the problem -- software that didn't go through the BIOS or MS-DOS software interrupts but instead accessed BIOS routines through specific addresses. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 29 21:35:25 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:35:25 -0600 Subject: Apricot F1 software needed Message-ID: Speaking of Apricots... I've got an F1 I purchased from ebay and it came with a full set of manuals, but no software. Can anyone help me out? I've got manuals for: - Apricot Software GEM Desktop - Apricot Software GEM Paint - Apricot Software GEM Write - Apricot Async User Guide - Microsoft Pack (MS-DOS 2.00, apparently) Since this machine only has a floppy drive, its not very functional until I get the right OS for it... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 21:38:23 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:38:23 -0400 Subject: LISA In-Reply-To: <46854A83.5040705@atarimuseum.com> References: <468546EC.90608@bitsavers.org> <46854A83.5040705@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4685C21F.6010005@gmail.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Can you blame them??? I mean, there's that secret Steve Job's memo > that says "any former L-Project member who brings up that name, is to be > taken behind R&D and have thrown at them all of the returned Apple ///'s > until he/she submits and only says Macintosh" Then couldn't someone have preserved all of the software one can run on a Macintosh XL? Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 29 21:39:46 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:39:46 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:23:00 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > I don't have any detailed specifications on how the hardware differed > other than the BIOS. The earlier assertion that it was miles away > from an IBM PC just isn't true. Peripherals and drivers from 3rd > party manufacturers worked just fine in all the configurations we sold > at the store where I worked (the only Apricot dealer in Delaware). Thinking about it more, my statement about peripherals might be stretching it. I don't *recall* any problems with 3rd party peripherals like modems and whatnot, but I am not 100% certain. The F1 doesn't look like it has compatible connectors for standard IBM PC peripherals, but ISTR that the Xi *did* have ISA slots. The F1 wasn't intended to be expanded very much -- if you wanted expansion, it was expected you would buy the Xi. At least that's how our store pitched it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 21:51:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:51:43 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4685C53F.80109@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Are you sure the AT has ROM BASIC? I don't remember that at all. > > Yes I am 100% sure my AT has ROM BASIC (that's the machine I am typing > this on, BTW). It's the later (8MHz) model, so I assume the older ones > had it too, certainly the manuals I have imply that. > > It's pretty hard to get to in most AT ystems because it'll boot from the > floppy or hard drives rather than run ROM BASIC. But I suspect you could > pull the disk cotnroller card and it'll go into BASIC. The other way to do it is to remove IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS (or IBMBIO.COM and IBMDOS.COM) from your hard drive and leave both floppy drives empty. If memory serves, it will tell give you the non-system disk error message a couple of times before dumping you to ROM BASIC. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 21:53:26 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:53:26 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4685C5A6.1010009@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Maybe first-year physics students should be asked to commoent on > Archimedes' statement :-) They were in my freshman physics class at Clarkson. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 22:05:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:05:32 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <4685C53F.80109@gmail.com> References: , <4685C53F.80109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4685660C.14562.28BCCA2@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jun 2007 at 22:51, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > It's pretty hard to get to in most AT ystems because it'll boot from the > > floppy or hard drives rather than run ROM BASIC. But I suspect you could > > pull the disk cotnroller card and it'll go into BASIC. ...So my not write a little file called, oh, GOBASIC.COM that contains the following 4 bytes? CD 18 CD 20 If there's a BASIC in ROM, that should get to it, no? The extra two bytes are there just to catch things if there's no BASIC ROM. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 29 22:16:19 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <14FE4030-819A-4B8E-AA41-13392E947A18@neurotica.com> <20070629183338.Y17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070629200827.W17251@shell.lmi.net> > > ahh, but do you know WHY the 5150 had those 5 ROMs, but 6 ROM sockets? On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > No, but I'm betting you do. Care to share? ;) UNCONFIRMED MS story: IBM asked MS how much room they would need for the BASIC. (not counting BIOS) MS said "32K" IBM's engineers felt that they had to allow for some overrun, and put in 6 ROM sockets instead of 5, to permit the BASIC to go over up to 40K. Some programmers at MS were offended by the "lack of trust"; so, when the BASIC ended up smaller than 32K, they padded it out with incomplete enhancements to bring it up to EXACTLY 32K. The guy from MS who told me that is dead, so I have no way to confirm it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ray at arachelian.com Fri Jun 29 22:38:53 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:38:53 -0400 Subject: LISA In-Reply-To: <200706290719.AA425197700@mail.retrobbs.org> References: <200706290719.AA425197700@mail.retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <4685D04D.7090904@arachelian.com> pdp11_70 wrote: > It would be even more need to write a TCP/IP stack for the thing, and some how hook up a scsi asanti ethernet adapter to a real Lisa and put it on the web without using Macworks. > > But as I don't have any of the real equipment... I guess that's just a pipe dream. > > It is still possible to build a tcp/ip stack for the Lisa, even without the source code. There is a device driver writer's guide out there in PDF form that you can use. Further, if you're serious about doing that, you might want to go with PPP as that would be far easier to implement and would run without requiring a SCSI card on a real Lisa, as well as on the emulaor. The bigger problem is there's nothing to use the TCP/IP stack once you have it. :-) So you'd have to write your own telnet, httpd, web browser, etc, and do so within about a meg or so of memory. Not exactly easy. I suppose, stealing code from something like Lunix or the ConTiki project would be the way to go. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 29 22:51:25 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070629012628.GC28518@brevard.conman.org> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <20070629012628.GC28518@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200706300353.XAA14464@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Another computer I had access to (but sadly, never played with to any > degree---sigh) was the Maspar. I remember those! We had one (with, I think, only about 2K CPUs in the parallel part) when I was at McGill. My first, and so far only, practical experience with a SIMD machine. > And you could only program the thing in Fortran (which is probably > explains why I or my friends didn't do anything with it). The one I used used a slightly mutant C. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Jun 29 23:03:03 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:03:03 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <001b01c7b924$5b14cec0$6600a8c0@JWEST> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C6E2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <001b01c7b924$5b14cec0$6600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4685D5F7.7030804@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > Billy wrote.... > >> What about the MicroData machines with a build your own >> instructions on the fly? > > SortofKindaNotReally > > MicroData Reality machines were firmware implementations of Pick > (Reality), not software implementations. As a result, you couldn't > actually microprogram the thing as an end user (normally). > The Microdata 800 was the first machine to run reality, 4k of memory, 8 ttys, 2mb disk. most who saw it demoed could not believe it could actually be running the tty's at the time and followed the wires to be sure. Had english, but no basic in the first days. all programming with procs, batch, and english, plus custom assembly code. Following the 1600, Microdata made Sequel machines which were 64 bit 2900 based microcoded custom machines. > There *WAS* an EEPROM board that would replace the firmware board, but > I don't believe that was typically released to the field. > > I used to have two M1600's (the early ones with the wood panels). One > of them did have the EEPROM microcode option but I do know that > particular unit was sent out from microdata "under the table". I had > let these two machines slip through my fingers many years ago, long > before I got into collecting. BUT - on the bright side - I found out a > year or so ago that those two machines actually did wind up in the > hands of another collector who is known to another listmember! > :-) they had what they called Arom, for alterable rom. It was a really fast and expensive three voltage ram part, which was 64 x 1 IIRC. it had to have about 100ns response time, and was static. there never was an eprom fast enough for the 1600 before it was not an issue. We built a development system for our 1600 with two 8k static parts though (Irvine Compter Corp's version) I also used two of the parts that they had in the 1600 for the file registers which were 4 bit x 32 to make a simple memory that you could program thru the front panel of the 1600, by adding a switch to generate a write pulse when you had a 16 bit control word and address in the panel display. Good for debugging the 1600, which had several instructions which affected the instruction following in the microcode, but whose affect was suppressed when stepping. > I now have an M1600 that is the later metal panel variety, waiting to > be restored. > > Even on the software implementations (which the microdata's weren't), > you could create new missionary instructions from native instructions > by playing some games in the 5-pass assembly process. However, this > wouldn't technically be considered microprogramming as the "native" > instructions would be just whatever the underlying cpu was (68000, > PDP11, RS6000, x86, etc.). So you could create new virtual > instructions, but still not really microprogramming. > > Jay > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 29 23:11:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:11:49 -0600 Subject: Tandy 2000 hack In-Reply-To: References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4685D805.4040300@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: >> If running 8 bit memory (without a parity bit), parity errors "NEVER >> HAPPEN"! > > *snicker* I see I'm not the only one who's drinking tonight. ;) Ummm that gives you a *Party* error instead. Did any of the small computers use error correcting codes or was that only left to a few large computers? > -Dave > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 29 23:26:40 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 hack In-Reply-To: <4685D805.4040300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685D805.4040300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070629212355.B17251@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, woodelf wrote: > Ummm that gives you a *Party* error instead. > Did any of the small computers use error correcting codes > or was that only left to a few large computers? In late 1982?, I had a 192K ECC memory board from Boulder Creek Systems in a 5150 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 29 23:36:14 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:36:14 -0600 Subject: Tandy 2000 hack In-Reply-To: <20070629212355.B17251@shell.lmi.net> References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685D805.4040300@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070629212355.B17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4685DDBE.9060403@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, woodelf wrote: >> Ummm that gives you a *Party* error instead. >> Did any of the small computers use error correcting codes >> or was that only left to a few large computers? > > In late 1982?, I had a 192K ECC memory board from Boulder Creek > Systems in a 5150 Could you disable the PC's memory and just run the ECC board? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 29 23:26:09 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200706300441.AAA24993@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I thing it would probably be interesting to make a computer where the > building blocks would be tetrahedra, and you would bolt them together > in 3D configurations. Can you make an icosahedron out of tetrahedra? No - at least not assuming you mean a solid regular icosahedron and regular tetrahedra. The face-to-face angle of a regular tetrahedron is not a "nice" angle - it's 2*arcsin(.5/sqrt(.75)), or slightly over 70??, distinctly short of the 72? that would let you fit five of them around a line, but not nearly short enough to fix six of them (60?). Go to a gaming shop and pick up a handful of D4s if you want to fiddle with regular tetrahedra; it's probably the cheapest and easiest way to get a bunch of fairly regular tetrahedra in an easily handleable size. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 29 23:49:34 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 hack In-Reply-To: <4685DDBE.9060403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685D805.4040300@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070629212355.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685DDBE.9060403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070629214810.C17251@shell.lmi.net> > > In late 1982?, I had a 192K ECC memory board from Boulder Creek > > Systems in a 5150 On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, woodelf wrote: > Could you disable the PC's memory and just run the ECC board? NO. I could set the starting address, but no documentation on how to set it to start at 0, and no obvious way to disable the soldered in first row of RAM. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 30 00:05:15 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <4685D5F7.7030804@msm.umr.edu> from jim at "Jun 29, 7 09:03:03 pm" Message-ID: <200706300505.l5U55FrH012332@floodgap.com> > > MicroData Reality machines were firmware implementations of Pick > > (Reality), not software implementations. As a result, you couldn't > > actually microprogram the thing as an end user (normally). > > > The Microdata 800 was the first machine to run reality, 4k of memory, 8 > ttys, 2mb disk. This seems preposterous, actually. Why have such a "large" disk and such a "small" amount of RAM? > actually be running the tty's at the time and followed the wires to be > sure. Had english, but no basic in the first days. all programming > with procs, batch, and english, plus custom assembly code. What architecture for the assembler (custom?)? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- For every credibility gap, there is a gullibility fill. -- R. Clopton ------ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 30 00:07:55 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:07:55 -0700 Subject: Drum vs. Core References: <200706291701.l5TH10ki065902@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5D456CEC-6AE1-4262-B5E5-32886CD714CD@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4685E52B.2E18E546@cs.ubc.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > > > Core was available by 1952, most of the big machines after this > > date (on this side > > of the pond at least) were core based. The IBM 650 was actually one > > of the smaller > > machines, at least inasmuch as IBM was already making much larger > > machines > > (the 700 series). > > Wasn't core memory very expensive in the beginning? It had to be hand > assembled, at least in the early days. I think there was a more > gradual take up than you suggest. Of course the more expensive > machines which used it first saw a huge speed increase over drum main > memory. It's something of a matter of opinion, but from what I've gathered I'd characterise it as pretty quick. Promptly after Whirlwind (on which core was developed) was converted from storage tube to core, some other existing machines were also converted (IBM 701, NORC). The rest of the 700 series used it, haven't checked into when UNIVAC took up with it. Core was such a tremendous advantage over the alternatives any new machines that were going to excel in performance 'had to' use it. (Correction: my statement of 1952 above should be 1953.) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 30 00:08:58 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:08:58 -0700 Subject: Drum vs. Core References: <200706291701.l5TH10ki065902@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <5D456CEC-6AE1-4262-B5E5-32886CD714CD@microspot.co.uk> <46850DE2.27004.1336DEA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4685E569.3EF63879@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > While the main store on the IBM 650, didn't most of the installed > base (eventually) also have 50 words of core as sort of a > "scratchpad" memory? Indeed, according to http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/650.html there was 60 words of core used as a buffer between the drum and tape drives to account for their different data rates, but which could also be used for other stuff. I find the Columbia computing history pages a great combination of technical overview and anecdotal stories, making them fun to read. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 30 00:09:50 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 01:09:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LISA In-Reply-To: <4685D04D.7090904@arachelian.com> References: <200706290719.AA425197700@mail.retrobbs.org> <4685D04D.7090904@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200706300519.BAA25253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Further, if you're serious about [building an IP stack for the Lisa], > you might want to go with PPP as that would be far easier to > implement and would run without requiring a SCSI card on a real Lisa, > as well as on the emulaor. (a) Surely you mean Ethernet, not SCSI? (b) SLIP would be substantially easier than PPP; in my experience, when you're using hardwired lines (as opposed to asymmetric dialup connections), it's also substantially more reliable. (In '02, I spent an afternoon trying to set up two machines with a short cable between them with PPP, and was unable to make it auto-recover from all combinations of reboot orders. I switched to SLIP and it all Just Worked; SLIP is an excellent example of "too simple to break". That was also when I designed a SLIP protocol extension for IPv6; see ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/ipv6-slip.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 30 00:30:58 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:30:58 -0700 Subject: Drum vs. Core Message-ID: <4685EA92.10400@bitsavers.org> > haven't checked into > when UNIVAC took up with it. 1103A (Williams Tubes in orig 1103) in MN UNIVAC II (UNIVAC I was mercury delay lines) in PA I'd have to dig a bit more for the Univac military systems. From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 00:51:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 01:51:25 -0400 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <200706300441.AAA24993@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> <200706300441.AAA24993@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4685EF5D.9000608@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> I thing it would probably be interesting to make a computer where the >> building blocks would be tetrahedra, and you would bolt them together >> in 3D configurations. Can you make an icosahedron out of tetrahedra? > > No - at least not assuming you mean a solid regular icosahedron and > regular tetrahedra. The face-to-face angle of a regular tetrahedron is > not a "nice" angle - it's 2*arcsin(.5/sqrt(.75)), or slightly over > 70??, distinctly short of the 72? that would let you fit five of them > around a line, but not nearly short enough to fix six of them (60?). No, I'm not sure I meant a solid icosahedron. I was only thinking as far as a tetrahedron has equilateral triangles as faces, and so does an icosahedron. Peace... Sridhar From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 30 01:08:10 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:08:10 -0700 Subject: Tandy 2000 hack -ECC memory In-Reply-To: <20070629214810.C17251@shell.lmi.net> References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685D805.4040300@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070629212355.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685DDBE.9060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070629214810.C17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4685F34A.80809@sbcglobal.net> I was the designer of the Boulder Creek Systems board. It would have been nice to be able to disable the PC's base memory to allow all ECC memory but there was no easy way without hacking up the main board. At a West Cost Computer Show in 1982, some IBM employees came up to my booth and pulled out memory chips while the board was running on an extender card. They did not believe it was real ECC memory. After seeing it was still running, IBM bought 50 boards. That was our biggest sale. No one else really cared about the ECC, they just wanted more memory for cheaper. The board had single bit correction, and multi-bit detection which would then generate the parity error. ECC codes were generated in a small bipolar PROM. Somewhere I still have my main board that I hacked to disable the RAM and run all ECC cards. Bob Fred Cisin wrote: >>> In late 1982?, I had a 192K ECC memory board from Boulder Creek >>> Systems in a 5150 >>> > On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, woodelf wrote: > >> Could you disable the PC's memory and just run the ECC board? >> > > NO. > I could set the starting address, but no documentation on how to set it to > start at 0, and no obvious way to disable the soldered in first row of > RAM. > > > > > From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Jun 30 04:22:30 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:22:30 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070629184522.S17251@shell.lmi.net> References: <198395.92299.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629184522.S17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2f806cd70706300222scce2818yb157c72addef6401@mail.gmail.com> On 30/06/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I've got a fax-capture box ... > > I have a "Printer Pal" from HP that interrupts the cable between PC and > Deskjet (not sure which models) and to phone line to do incoming faxes on > the printer > Ohh takes me back. One of my first tasks in my first full time programming job (circa 1990) was to work with two devices called "telexbox" and "faxbox". These acted a little like serial printers, but 'printing' to telex and telephone lines respectively. You dropped a file of text into them, and they would queue up messages for sending. They'd also receive them and hand them back to you. They had a unique command set, to allow you to manage the queues, etc. (I think they were actually designed so they could be used as "dumb ascii" serial printers if needed - the dial/addressing commands could be placed in the first line of text sent when printing your word-processed document.) My job was writing a front end on a multi-user BOS system (in COBOL!) to let each user send and receive messages independantly, manage their own queues, etc, but not see other users' activity (unless they were supervisor level). It was also about the only time I ever used the telex->Prestel gateway - it helped to have somewhere to send test messages to and receive them from! Rob From cc at corti-net.de Sat Jun 30 04:25:07 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:25:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <4685E569.3EF63879@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200706291701.l5TH10ki065902@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <5D456CEC-6AE1-4262-B5E5-32886CD714CD@microspot.co.uk> <46850DE2.27004.1336DEA@cclist.sydex.com> <4685E569.3EF63879@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Indeed, according to http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/650.html there > was 60 words of core used as a buffer between the drum and tape drives > to account for their different data rates, but which could also be used > for other stuff. Well, then you have to count the LGP-30 as computer with core memory, too, because the interface to the (apparently extremly rare) magnetic tape drives (yes, there were tape drives for the LGP-30!) contained core memory as buffer. The drive would buffer the block in core so that the LGP-30 could read it with its own speed (and vice versa). Christian From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jun 29 01:18:28 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:18:28 +0100 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902303B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Here's my five cents worth. I see computers and computing as different things. We discuss a lot about old hardware and to some extent and rather less about old software. What's in short supply is how the hard/soft combinations were used practically. "Are there any interesting old applications out there?" As to the on/off topic issue. I don't see any problem with comparing and contrasting the old with the current. If one topic arises out of another and is of interest to others on the list and gets a response so be it. If there is no response then the silent majority have voted. I am concerned that difference between moderation and censorship could, at some time in the future, (present situation excepted) become less distinct. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: 28 June 2007 13:58 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Billy Pettit real disappointment Billy wrote... >> Come on people: there were computers long before there were >> microcomputers. I seem to remember a recent post complaining that this list was nothing but minicomputer and big-iron talk, no microcomputer discussion. Apparently that was wrong, as now there is a complaint it's just micro talk? ;) Jay ` From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 29 03:30:43 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:30:43 +0100 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200706281502.42870.gordon@gjcp.net> <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200706290930.43919.gordon@gjcp.net> On Thursday 28 June 2007 22:45:38 Jules Richardson wrote: > Indeed... personally I'm a big fan of the mechanical precursors whose > mechanisms helped kick-start the computer age - not strictly on-topic, but > AFAIK there's nowhere else to discuss such things unfortunately. And on that note... http://woodgears.ca/marbleadd/index.html I reckon that's on-topic no matter what. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 29 03:44:41 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:44:41 +0100 Subject: The late, great TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070627111504.012c6978@mail.30below.com> <1183014185.9194.22.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200706290944.41403.gordon@gjcp.net> On Friday 29 June 2007 03:38:10 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/28/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 01:00 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I have played plenty of Doom, but I have also played uncountable hours > > > of computer games in a 40x25 or 80x24 text window that are entirely > > > unlike Doom. > > > > Get me a QBus framebuffer, and I'll port it to the PDP11. If not Doom, > > then at least Wolfenstein 3D... > > Heh... I would love to see that. The only obstacle I envision is that > the '286 can quickly twiddle segment registers to augment its 16-bit > pointers, and the PDP-11 has to fiddle the MMU to get more than a 64K > reach (128K with Split I&D). yup > I'm not saying it can't be done - I do wonder how one could > efficiently manage all that texture data, though. Well - you get Wolf3D for the Apple IIGS. Wolf3D used raycasting rather than true 3D, where there are certain geometric constraints that you can use to "cheat" and draw things quickly. Everything in the "world" is made of big cubes, walls are always vertical and corners are always 90 degrees. Generally you try and have things as powers of two to speed up calculations. If the 65C816 can do it, a PDP-11/73 should be able to... Gordon From mike.hatch at mclennan.co.uk Fri Jun 29 04:15:47 2007 From: mike.hatch at mclennan.co.uk (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:15:47 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <125701c7ba2e$15717ed0$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> My experience is SDS9300 - 24bit Elliott 803B - 39bit - one restored and working at Bletchley Park Digital PDP-7 - 18 bit Digital PDP11-45 - LEO 326 - ? bits can't remember > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:01:16 +0100 > From: Roger Holmes > Its got Ampex > TM4 mag tape drives (not industry standard 7 or 9 track, these are > ten track units with hubs the same design as professional audio tapes > and the 2 and 3 inch wide video tapes once used by TV broadcasters). Our SDS9300 had TM4 drives but I don't remember them being 2 and 3 inch wide, I thought they were 0.5 inch, but then that was 35years ago. The Elliott 803B had 35mm tape drives, sprocket driven, derived from film handlers, tape made by Kodak. Mike Hatch Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Fri Jun 29 05:46:50 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:46:50 +0100 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46840016.18026.1FDB625@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0706270518s47d2995bv4951d093dfb3b77e@mail.gmail.com> <584980.3441.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <46840016.18026.1FDB625@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200706291146.50175.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Friday 29 June 2007 02:38:14 Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Jun 2007 at 17:28, Chris M wrote: > >> My Ampro LB/PC has a V40. Never ran much on it, but > > > > does that chip pose the same problems a *real* 186 > > would? > > At a maximum, no more than a V20 would in a PC. It did have several > interesting features, including 8080 emulation (like the V20) and the > ability to address 4MB of memory. I liked the chip--and there was at > least one portable/luggable based on it. It was a common retrofit in a lot of XT-alikes. I fitted a few to Amstrad PPCs, way way back. Gordon From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Fri Jun 29 05:47:55 2007 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:47:55 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <402265.60711.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <402265.60711.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200706291147.55861.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Friday 29 June 2007 01:44:10 Chris M wrote: > FURTHERMORE...what was the last computer *any* to > have it? I'm going to guess Acorn Archimedes here. Gordon From mike.hatch at mclennan.co.uk Fri Jun 29 07:29:25 2007 From: mike.hatch at mclennan.co.uk (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:29:25 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? Message-ID: <002801c7ba49$226c4b90$911ca8c0@MikeHatch> My experience is SDS9300 - 24bit Elliott 803B - 39bit - one restored and working at Bletchley Park Digital PDP-7 - 18 bit Digital PDP11-45 LEO 326 - ? bits can't remember > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:01:16 +0100 > From: Roger Holmes > Its got Ampex > TM4 mag tape drives (not industry standard 7 or 9 track, these are > ten track units with hubs the same design as professional audio tapes > and the 2 and 3 inch wide video tapes once used by TV broadcasters). Our SDS9300 had TM4 drives but I don't remember them being 2 and 3 inch wide, I thought they were 0.5 inch, but then that was 35years ago. The Elliott 803B had 35mm tape drives, sprocket driven, derived from film handlers, tape made by Kodak. Mike Hatch Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) From marasco at insightbb.com Fri Jun 29 09:19:17 2007 From: marasco at insightbb.com (David Marasco) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:19:17 -0400 Subject: AVAIL: Xerox 630 Memorywriter system disks Message-ID: <006301c7ba58$7a2e6de0$564a814a@david> I might be interested in your Xerox 630 Memorywriter system disks. Please email me at davidsharon at insightbb.com with price. Thanks, David This transmission is confidential and intended solely for the person(s) or organization(s) to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete this transmission. Thank you for your cooperation. From ylee at pobox.com Fri Jun 29 12:14:21 2007 From: ylee at pobox.com (Yeechang Lee) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:14:21 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46848505.2000606@oldskool.org> References: <46848505.2000606@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <18053.15853.697598.820020@dobie.ylee.org> Jim Leonard says: > Then how was Compaq able to get around it? The original Compaq is > the only compatible I've ever used that -- BASIC programs aside -- > ran everything a real 5150 would, without exception. Classic clean-room reverse engineering. Compaq put the effort into it that no one else did, meaning that Compaqs were the only clones that exceeded the "95% compatibility" barrier until the Phoenix BIOS came along. -- Yeechang Lee | +1 650 776 7763 | San Francisco CA US From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Jun 30 04:01:29 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:01:29 +0100 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1183194089.26395.2.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-06-29 at 23:46 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > e possible input device was a pressure switch operated by blowing or > sucking. Yup. I had the guts of such a device lying around for a long time, from a project started and abandoned by the medical electronics company my Dad worked for. The idea was that by sucking or blowing you could move a cursor to select a letter and then "click" it. I actually got it to work quite well, but by that point the investors had moved onto another shiny thing. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Jun 30 04:34:58 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:34:58 +0100 Subject: Tandy 2000 hack In-Reply-To: <4685D805.4040300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685D805.4040300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1183196098.26395.4.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-06-29 at 22:11 -0600, woodelf wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> If running 8 bit memory (without a parity bit), parity errors "NEVER > >> HAPPEN"! > > > > *snicker* I see I'm not the only one who's drinking tonight. ;) > > Ummm that gives you a *Party* error instead. > Did any of the small computers use error correcting codes > or was that only left to a few large computers? I had a talking bird that kept saying "Pieces of nine! Pieces of twelve! Pieces of zero!". I sent it back though. Too many parroty errors. Gordon From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Sat Jun 30 06:10:04 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:10:04 +0100 Subject: MP3 players In-Reply-To: <07f501c7b993$ecedb180$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <07f501c7b993$ecedb180$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <42A03742-AE1F-4A49-BE33-2AA7D300DC62@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 28 Jun 2007, at 15:52, Jay West wrote: > > I find it exceedingly difficult to consider this type of thread on- > topic. I'm surprised. MP3 players *are* computers and although they may not yet meet the 10-year criteria the posters appear to be talking about the earliest examples of this particular hardware application. I find this subject at least as interesting as the discussion on (say) PDP computers I read on here. Stroller. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Jun 30 07:18:44 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 08:18:44 -0400 Subject: LISA In-Reply-To: <200706300519.BAA25253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200706290719.AA425197700@mail.retrobbs.org> <4685D04D.7090904@arachelian.com> <200706300519.BAA25253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46864A24.6000404@arachelian.com> der Mouse wrote: >> Further, if you're serious about [building an IP stack for the Lisa], >> you might want to go with PPP as that would be far easier to >> implement and would run without requiring a SCSI card on a real Lisa, >> as well as on the emulaor. >> > > (a) Surely you mean Ethernet, not SCSI? > Actually, we do mean SCSI - there used to be a SCSI card for the Lisa - only worked under MacWorks, and there used to be a SCSI->Ethernet adapter. (Much like there used to be parallel port ethernet adapters for PC's.) Both the Lisa SCSI card and the ethernet<->SCSI adapter are quite rare these days, so it's not much of a solution. However, the Lisa does have a pair of built in RS-232 ports, one of which can be used for appletalk (localtalk) so it can go as high as 230kbps. Of course, it's very difficult getting the Lisa to sustain much of any serial conversation above 19.2, even with hardware handshaking, and leaving it enough CPU cycles to do much of anything else. But then again, if you can build a TCP/IP stack for Lunix and Con-Tiki on C64's, it can be done on a Lisa too... As as aside, there were lots of very strange things on SCSI busses back in the day. Scanners were quite common, but there actually existed printers, and even video cards on SCSI busses. :-) The SCSI video card and ethernet card were useful for compact Macs that had a scsi port, but no expansion slots. The Lisa does have 3 expansion port slots, so it if you're going to build hardware, you could easily build an ethernet controller for it, but they would be quite expensive, and not very useful in terms of how much bandwidth you'd get out of them. But serial ports are free as they're built in, so only the software half is needed. > (b) SLIP would be substantially easier than PPP; in my experience, when > you're using hardwired lines (as opposed to asymmetric dialup > connections), it's also substantially more reliable. Very true. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Jun 30 08:12:16 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:12:16 -0400 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070629200827.W17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Fred Cisin wrote: > > > ahh, but do you know WHY the 5150 had those 5 ROMs, but 6 ROM sockets? > > On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > > No, but I'm betting you do. Care to share? ;) > > UNCONFIRMED MS story: > IBM asked MS how much room they would need for the BASIC. (not counting > BIOS) > MS said "32K" > IBM's engineers felt that they had to allow for some overrun, and put in 6 > ROM sockets instead of 5, to permit the BASIC to go over up to 40K. > Some programmers at MS were offended by the "lack of trust"; so, when the > BASIC ended up smaller than 32K, they padded it out with incomplete > enhancements to bring it up to EXACTLY 32K. > > > The guy from MS who told me that is dead, so I have no way to confirm it. The first hard disk I saw in a 5150 used a controller with a ROM installed in that socket. I'm pretty sure that it was 3rd party, don't remember the company. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/880 - Release Date: 6/29/2007 2:15 PM From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jun 30 08:47:12 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 08:47:12 -0500 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3902303B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <004b01c7bb1d$2c2fbc00$6500a8c0@BILLING> Rod wrote.... > As to the on/off topic issue. I don't see any problem with comparing and > contrasting the old with the current. Nor do I. However, it is my place to set & enforce boundaries, mostly to keep things from getting out of hand. > If one topic arises out of another and is of interest to others on the > list and gets a response so be it. If there is no response then the silent > majority have voted. To an extent, you're absolutely right. However, see the above. > I am concerned that difference between moderation and censorship could, > at > some time in the future, (present situation excepted) become less > distinct. If you ever feel that it does, please see http://www.list.org/ or http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/ I try to keep an even hand and keep things from getting to a point where people complain to me (both privately and publicly). When things get out of hand it increases my workload dramatically which I generally don't appreciate. That has a funny way of tainting ones mood. Jay West From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Sat Jun 30 08:48:42 2007 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:48:42 +0100 Subject: LISA In-Reply-To: <4685C21F.6010005@gmail.com> References: <468546EC.90608@bitsavers.org> <46854A83.5040705@atarimuseum.com> <4685C21F.6010005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <959F65EC-62A7-42BE-9A07-2F97D1D8C7E4@retrobbs.org> I'd just like to do some fun stuff with it... LIke write a few applications or something. Being able to see the source to the OS would be nice... and helpful considering the almost complete lack of documentation. I'd like to write a driver for the asanti scsi enet card and a tcp/ip stack. Of course, being a stupid database programmer guy, I'd have no idea how to do it, but learning would be fun! I also learned to program in Oregon Software Pascal II (on a decwriter hooked up to a pdp 11/70) so seeing a whole OS written in Pascal (and assembly I bet) would be really interesting. I think you'd have better luck asking Woz. But I bet they wouldn't let him do it. ... I'll start an online petition. Anyone want to help with the resurrect lisa website? Oh God, not again. So many projects, so little time.... On 30 Jun 2007, at 03:38, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Can you blame them??? I mean, there's that secret Steve Job's >> memo that says "any former L-Project member who brings up that >> name, is to be taken behind R&D and have thrown at them all of the >> returned Apple ///'s until he/she submits and only says Macintosh" > > Then couldn't someone have preserved all of the software one can > run on a Macintosh XL? > > Peace... Sridhar > "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - Dwight D. Eisenhower From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 09:48:38 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 07:48:38 -0700 Subject: "Oddball"(LGP-30) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Rick Bensene" The Combitron S was picked up >by SCM because of their OEM agreement with Diehl, and marketed by SCM as >the SCM 566PR. > Hi I remember writing programs for on of these to solve a statitical problem for data on a mass spectrometer. I recall waiting on power up while it loaded the data from the metal tape( sometimes it needed to be rebooted ). I'd love to find one of these. I alway wanted to see how they dealed with the different speeds of the metal tape and the memory. There was no exact speed control on the metal tape. It just ran from the spool speed with no capstan. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Picture this ? share your photos and you could win big! http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 30 10:27:42 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:27:42 -0500 Subject: Fw: more... Message-ID: <00a701c7bb2b$395ad370$08406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Deaton" To: "Keys" ; "Al Kossow" Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:36 PM Subject: Re: more... > John, > > Send me a number were I can call U after 9PM or on > weekends when the cell phone (NEXTEL) is 'free'. > > I am in Indiana - Eastern Time Zone. We can discuss. > > You can call me free any time if you have Sprint or > Nextel. > > My incoming calls are all free. > > Tim Deatom > 317-716-8807 > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ He has tons of doc's, 15 Televideo terminals, 100+ monitors, 100+ printers, 100's of new parts, tons of software (OS's, WP's and no games), many more things than I can list. If you live in his area please try and rescue this stuff, it's all free to good homes. I wish I could get some of the tons of documentation and service manuals that he has from his old business. He's in Indiana. Thanks for reading, John Keys From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 10:39:53 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 08:39:53 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4684C674.428.1C6A2B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 29 Jun 2007 at 1:08, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Core logic is quite a different form of gate implementation than what we > > normally deal with, the static state of the network is represented by >the > > magnetic field of the cores (not by DC voltage levels at gate outputs) >and it > > requires AC activity into the cores to propagate changes through the >network. > >Bitsavers has the operations manual and complete schematics for the >SS-80 with a really good explanation of how these things work. If >you're used to semiconductor logic, core logic is *very* different. >If you consider other machines of the time and that the entire logic >power came from the clock signal, 6 4X150s (at what, 250W plate >dissipation per the each?) wasn't bad at all. > >It'd be fun to see if the large cores for this type of logic could be >obtained to experiment with this logic type again. > Hi If this is the logic I'm thinking of, the clock is needed to keep the state of the data through the cores and also provide amplification power to propagate the data. The principle was that the cores could take on one of two phase states, representing 1/0. It used the non-linear saturation of the cored to make a divide by two. Since the divide can happen on either the first or the second cycle of the input clock, there were two states. Amplification happen because the cores windings were connected to a capacitor. multiple cycles would increase the aplitude. The output was just two wires so one could also create inversions. Logic was created by summing inputs from input data. This logic was very reliable being magnetic material. Unlike tubes that could occationally give incorrect answers. As long as it had enough clock signal it would be fine ( 4X150's ). There was someone on the list ( as I recall ) that had one of the experimenter kits with this logic in it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! http://mobile.msn.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 30 12:30:01 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:30:01 -0500 Subject: LARGE IN RESCUE NEEDED Was Fw: more... Message-ID: <00dc01c7bb3c$5104cf10$08406b43@66067007> Sorry for double post but wanted to clear up message subject ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "cctalk at classiccmp" Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 10:27 AM Subject: Fw: more... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Deaton" > To: "Keys" ; "Al Kossow" > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:36 PM > Subject: Re: more... > > >> John, >> >> Send me a number were I can call U after 9PM or on >> weekends when the cell phone (NEXTEL) is 'free'. >> >> I am in Indiana - Eastern Time Zone. We can discuss. >> >> You can call me free any time if you have Sprint or >> Nextel. >> >> My incoming calls are all free. >> >> Tim Deatom >> 317-716-8807 >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ >> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. >> Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. >> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ > > He has tons of doc's, 15 Televideo terminals, 100+ monitors, 100+ > printers, 100's of new parts, tons of software (OS's, WP's and no games), > many more things than I can list. If you live in his area please try and > rescue this stuff, it's all free to good homes. I wish I could get some of > the tons of documentation and service manuals that he has from his old > business. He's in Indiana. > > Thanks for reading, > John Keys From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 12:57:42 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <200706291146.50175.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <170950.21124.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Friday 29 June 2007 02:38:14 Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 28 Jun 2007 at 17:28, Chris M wrote: > > >> My Ampro LB/PC has a V40. Never ran much on > it, but > > > > > > does that chip pose the same problems a *real* > 186 > > > would? > > > > At a maximum, no more than a V20 would in a PC. > It did have several > > interesting features, including 8080 emulation > (like the V20) and the > > ability to address 4MB of memory. I liked the > chip--and there was at > > least one portable/luggable based on it. > > It was a common retrofit in a lot of XT-alikes. I > fitted a few to Amstrad > PPCs, way way back. Fine, but does a V40 present the same *possible* incompatibility issues as an 80186. And for that matter but OI NOT THE ORIGINAL QUESTION does a V20/V30 present any of it's own... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Jun 30 13:01:37 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:01:37 -0400 Subject: HP-IL sighting! In-Reply-To: <3390E24D-C911-4005-B567-4626519864D7@neurotica.com> References: <3390E24D-C911-4005-B567-4626519864D7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46869A81.3090205@netscape.net> Drat! I thought I had all the HP-IL peripherals... Jim mcguire at neurotica.com wrote: > > HP-IL interfaces turn up in the oddest places. This sound level > meter on eBay looks to have an HP-IL interface, shown in the pics: > > http://shorterlink.org/2335 > > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 13:02:04 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <46854BFC.17334.22602D0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <747666.90192.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Jun 2007 at 23:36, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Oh come on. There's a big difference between > writing an extension ROM, > > which follows a well-docuemtned pattern, to > implement a well-documented > > function and replacing the procesosr, memory > system (I doubt you'll get > > anywhere with XP in 640K), expanding the address > bus, replacing the video > > system (XP won't run on nn MDA or CGA card), etc, > etc, etc. > > And yet, that's pretty close to what some folks were > doing. ;) > Witness the Microsoft Mach 20 (80286, memory, floppy > (HD support)) or > the Intel Inboard 386 PC/XT. Folks were willing to > spend a lot to > keep that funky 5160 case! :) So I guess Big Blue wasn't reponsible for the "use and toss" era of personal computering after all. You're right, having dumped a considerable amount of money into one, they were quick to let it go. Those are some of the most curious collectible attachments these days, though I'm sure they caused their original owners more then a few headaches... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 13:07:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <20070629184522.S17251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <330502.66468.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I've got a fax-capture box ... > > On Thu, 28 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: > > I want one > > I have a "Printer Pal" from HP that interrupts the > cable between PC and > Deskjet (not sure which models) and to phone line to > do incoming faxes on > the printer I want that too. What's inside (regardless I still want it!) :) ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 13:11:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <4685C53F.80109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <184803.62154.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > It's pretty hard to get to in most AT ystems > because it'll boot from the > > floppy or hard drives rather than run ROM BASIC. > But I suspect you could > > pull the disk cotnroller card and it'll go into > BASIC. > > The other way to do it is to remove IO.SYS and > MSDOS.SYS (or IBMBIO.COM > and IBMDOS.COM) from your hard drive and leave both > floppy drives empty. > If memory serves, it will tell give you the > non-system disk error > message a couple of times before dumping you to ROM > BASIC. Couldn't you just G XXXX:XXXX (don't ask me the specific memory location) in debug and get their that way? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 13:18:50 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46853F7F.3000408@garlic.com> Message-ID: <710794.48293.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- jd wrote: > Also, hardly classic but it is unusual and > interesting: > > (SonicBlue) ProGear tablet based on the TransMeta > Crusoe CPU I saw *my* first piece of Transmeta hardware, some box, on ePay the other day. Don't ask me the details, I don't even think I "watched" the auction. ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Jun 30 14:32:46 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:32:46 -0600 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <184803.62154.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <184803.62154.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4686AFDE.3040501@brutman.com> Chris M wrote: > Couldn't you just G XXXX:XXXX (don't ask me the > specific memory location) in debug and get their that > way? It's an interrupt, and Chuck already posted it. (INT 19) Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 30 13:44:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:44:09 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <170950.21124.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200706291146.50175.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk>, <170950.21124.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46864209.17276.AEBB64@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jun 2007 at 10:57, Chris M wrote: > Fine, but does a V40 present the same *possible* > incompatibility issues as an 80186. And for that > matter but OI NOT THE ORIGINAL QUESTION does a V20/V30 > present any of it's own... Well, if you had a decent programmer writing the code, s/he would use a fairly standard routine to differentiate between an 808x and a V- series chip as well as an 80286 and 80386. The code was widely published. You mostly saw V40/V50 for embedded use, although there were one or two portables that used them. Indecent programmers can go debug themselves. :) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 30 13:45:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:45:11 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <4686AFDE.3040501@brutman.com> References: <184803.62154.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com>, <4686AFDE.3040501@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46864247.20308.AFAE83@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jun 2007 at 13:32, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > It's an interrupt, and Chuck already posted it. (INT 19) While 19h might get you there if you don't have a bootable device, the BASIC vector is 18h. Cheers, Chuck From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 30 13:54:30 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:54:30 -0400 Subject: C= LED watch on epay... In-Reply-To: <200706301703.l5UH2IAJ093883@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004d01c7bb48$1749a410$6500a8c0@barry> I think someone will be disappointed; it looks like an LCD watch, not an LED watch. From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Jun 30 14:04:28 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46864209.17276.AEBB64@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706291146.50175.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk>, <170950.21124.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <46864209.17276.AEBB64@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:44:09 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? > > On 30 Jun 2007 at 10:57, Chris M wrote: > >> Fine, but does a V40 present the same *possible* >> incompatibility issues as an 80186. And for that >> matter but OI NOT THE ORIGINAL QUESTION does a V20/V30 >> present any of it's own... > > Well, if you had a decent programmer writing the code, s/he would use > a fairly standard routine to differentiate between an 808x and a V- > series chip as well as an 80286 and 80386. The code was widely > published. > > You mostly saw V40/V50 for embedded use, although there were one or > two portables that used them. > > Indecent programmers can go debug themselves. :) > > Cheers, > Chuck > We used the V40 for embedded applications many years ago, The DMA controller is totally different than the 8257? used in a PC (in a good way, it had direct linear 1M addressability) We covered up the differences by emulating the 8257 (and 8255) in software -- access to DMA or 8255 I/O locations: 1. Remaps ROM to bottom to replace NMI vector with our hardwired vector 2. Generates NMI 3. NMI ISR backtracks to find I/O operation, address, and data, Then ISR does appropriate thing with V40 DMA or our I/O bit hardware Just why I remember this I do not know... Peter Wallace From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 30 14:40:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070630123846.L56921@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > The first hard disk I saw in a 5150 used a controller with a ROM installed > in that > socket. I'm pretty sure that it was 3rd party, don't remember the company. "MBI" sold an expansion ROM for that socket. I don't remember what it did; maybe CGA graphics screen print? I should dig it out and dump it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 30 14:49:14 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 hack -ECC memory In-Reply-To: <4685F34A.80809@sbcglobal.net> References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685D805.4040300@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070629212355.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685DDBE.9060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070629214810.C17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685F34A.80809@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20070630122418.C55912@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I was the designer of the Boulder Creek Systems board. Thank you! > It would have been nice to be able to disable the PC's base memory to > allow all ECC memory but there was no easy way without hacking up the > main board. > At a West Cost Computer Show in 1982, PC Faire? (Fall 1982, offshoot of West Coast Computer Faire, you were in the balcony of Cicic Auditorium?) > some IBM employees came up to my booth and pulled out memory chips while > the board was running on an extender card. They did not believe it was > real ECC memory. After seeing it was still running, IBM bought 50 > boards. That was our biggest sale. > No one else really cared about the ECC, they just wanted more memory for > cheaper. I cared. Although I was/am cheap, I'm disgusted by "Macintosh doesn't have a parity bit, and it NEVER has PARITY ERRORS". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 15:04:53 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 15:04:53 -0500 Subject: Fw: more... In-Reply-To: <00a701c7bb2b$395ad370$08406b43@66067007> References: <00a701c7bb2b$395ad370$08406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <51ea77730706301304u39e185a3u8e49e7a82d8cde4e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/07, Keys wrote: > things than I can list. If you live in his area please try and rescue this > stuff, it's all free to good homes. I wish I could get some of the tons of > documentation and service manuals that he has from his old business. He's in I made the tip last weekend. Tim's a really nice guy, and was a lot of fun to talk to while digging through his old junk. He'll tell you a lot of great stories while forcing dirty old terminals into your car. When I was there there were plenty of Televideo terminals left, and loads of printers and printer parts. I took everything I could, but there was a lot more remaining. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 30 15:12:11 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <18053.15853.697598.820020@dobie.ylee.org> References: <46848505.2000606@oldskool.org> <18053.15853.697598.820020@dobie.ylee.org> Message-ID: <20070630131121.Q58804@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Yeechang Lee wrote: > Classic clean-room reverse engineering. Compaq put the effort into it > that no one else did, meaning that Compaqs were the only clones that > exceeded the "95% compatibility" barrier until the Phoenix BIOS came > along. or was it 99 44/100 % compatability? What do they MEASURE? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 30 15:30:55 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <170950.21124.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <170950.21124.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070630132550.L58804@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: > Fine, but does a V40 present the same *possible* > incompatibility issues as an 80186. And for that > matter but OI NOT THE ORIGINAL QUESTION does a V20/V30 > present any of it's own... a few, but very few. For example, 8086/8088 has a few bugs. One of those is that if you have TWO prefixes (segment override , and REP) to a MOVSB, . . . if there is an interrupt during execution of that instruction, then the first? prefix is forgotten. NEC failed to provide that bug in the V20/V30. In addition, there are instructions to invoke the 8080 mode of the V20/V30. That behaves differently than those instructions on an 8088/8086. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 30 15:37:34 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <184803.62154.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <184803.62154.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070630133630.E58804@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007, Chris M wrote: > > message a couple of times before dumping you to ROM > > BASIC. > > Couldn't you just G XXXX:XXXX (don't ask me the > specific memory location) in debug and get their that > way? Certainly. But it might not be the same address on all, so it's more reliable to do an INT 18h which should have the current entry point. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 30 16:43:58 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46864209.17276.AEBB64@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706291146.50175.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk>, <170950.21124.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <46864209.17276.AEBB64@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070630143128.R58804@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, if you had a decent programmer writing the code, s/he would use > a fairly standard routine to differentiate between an 808x and a V- > series chip as well as an 80286 and 80386. The code was widely > published. But not "officially" documented, and based entirely on variations in side-effects. 20+ years ago, I saw a mention in an article in Microcornucopia? or Programmer's Journal? that mentioned "Intel official" method. The author split town, and when I tried to verify with intel, I bounced around a lot of people before I got through to somebody who understood. And asked me to send him a copy if I found it. It wasn't until much later that intel started including a processor ID. > Indecent programmers can go debug themselves. :) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 30 17:04:21 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:04:21 -0600 Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:12:11 -0700. <20070630131121.Q58804@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20070630131121.Q58804 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > What do they MEASURE? Its my understanding that these compatability metrics relate to how compatible the BIOS is with the IBM PC bios. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 30 17:11:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 15:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070630150848.A58804@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007, Richard wrote: > Its my understanding that these compatability metrics relate to how > compatible the BIOS is with the IBM PC bios. That is certainly the intent. But the actual numbers used - 99.9%, 89%, 99 44/100 % are uncalibrated derivatives of thin air. (86.54% of all statistics are made up out of thin air. It used to be 84%, but it has been climbing rapidly.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 17:22:25 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 15:22:25 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <85742.89606.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: Chris M > > >--- woodelf wrote: > > > Chris M wrote: > > > > > And...what was the first computer *any* to have a > > > rom-BASIC > > > > The Apple (1?) must come fairly close the mark. > > I remember (from the web) there there was no source > > for the integer > > basic , it was all hand coded. > > I had read many years ago that the first thing Jobs >did was in fact write the BASIC interpreter. This >totally mussed my brain up. Turns out that in the >"time sharing" days it was common to hand code >assembly, and present the work Friday afternoon to >the, I don't know, job guy. > And frankly, I hadn't until now contemplated that the >A1's BASIC was written in binary. Lordy > It was a cost thing. They were really running on a shoe string then. The thought that you could actually run micro computers with assemblers and compilers hadn't caught on yet. People still believed that it took a mini or larger to convert source to code. There were a few tape based assemblers out there but not for free. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 17:44:01 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 15:44:01 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Adam Sampson > >Dave McGuire writes: > > > Are you sure the AT has ROM BASIC? I don't remember that at all. > >Mine does (although I don't know if *all* of them had it). > Hi Most 286 AT's had ROM BASIC but it was mostly gone by the time the 386 machines started. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 30 18:08:53 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 19:08:53 -0400 Subject: Tandy 2000 hack -ECC memory In-Reply-To: <4685F34A.80809@sbcglobal.net> References: <438126.51935.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <20070629164214.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685D805.4040300@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070629212355.B17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685DDBE.9060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070629214810.C17251@shell.lmi.net> <4685F34A.80809@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Jun 30, 2007, at 2:08 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I was the designer of the Boulder Creek Systems board. It would > have been nice to be able > to disable the PC's base memory to allow all ECC memory but there > was no easy way without > hacking up the main board. At a West Cost Computer Show in 1982, > some IBM employees > came up to my booth and pulled out memory chips while the board was > running on an extender > card. They did not believe it was real ECC memory. After seeing it > was still running, IBM bought > 50 boards. That was our biggest sale. No one else really cared > about the ECC, they just wanted > more memory for cheaper. ...Could that have been the beginning of the divergence of the PC world from the rest of the computing world? ;) > The board had single bit correction, and multi-bit detection which > would > then generate the parity error. ECC codes were generated in a small > bipolar PROM. Most impressive! > Somewhere > I still have my main board that I hacked to disable the RAM and run > all ECC cards. Very cool! That needs to be documented on a web page somewhere! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 18:25:52 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:25:52 -0700 Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <4683F72D.7070106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >From: woodelf > >dwight elvey wrote: >>I just saw a web site with truly reduced instruction set. It had one >>instruction. Subtract and branch < 0. >>One can do a lot with a simple model. > >One or TWO's compliment? >Decimal or binary? >What if I want Subtract and Jump if < 0? >I've seen the same site. :) > >The Ultimate RISC page is here. >http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/risc/ >The minimal CISC page is there. >http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/cisc/ > Hi I don't think it matters what form of number represented. As for jump or branch, I like branch better for portablility. Still, jump is the easiest to implement in hardware. Sequencing could be done with an LFSR instead of a incrementor. This is even easier to implement. Of course, one would most likely need a compiler to figure addresses out but branch would just be an xor pattern. The ultimate in simple. One could most likely get even simpler with a bitwise nand of the data and a branch if zero ( or jump if you like ). One can create add and subtract with just nand and invert ( invert is just nand( n, 1's ). This would be binary to makes sense. I think one might like to add some form of subroutine call. The way I saw it done in the Nicolet would be fine. The first location of the call would receive the return address. One could make it so that all branches were like calls, it would just be that the return address was ignored if it was not a call. Still, only one instruction but multiple ways to use it. :) Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Picture this ? share your photos and you could win big! http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Jun 30 19:06:55 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 01:06:55 +0100 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <200706291937.l5TJa2xM069653@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706291937.l5TJa2xM069653@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 29 Jun, 2007, at 20:37, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > From: "Billy Pettit" > > > ----------------- > > Billy replies: This was a serial machine using a magnetic drum for > memory. > So the registers and memory were all bit serial and on the drum. I/ > O was > accomplish by moving data from one line to another. The logic at > each end > of the line was in peripheral but the bits were on the drum. So it > really > doesn't fit the standard definition of memory mapped I/O, though > that is the > closest description. There were no channels per se. > > Al has just posted most of the G-15 manuals. Have a look. It > certainly > qualifies for the weirdest machine I ever worked on. Yes that's reasonably weird. I particularly like the weirdness of drum where the data spins faster than the drum and it stores even faster rotating data on the same band. Makes my 1301's drums with one read/write head on each bit track seem boring, though the tracks are grouped in fours as it is a 4 bit parallel by 12 digit serial architecture. The 1301 has a neat trick for its day, to transfer an entire band (four tracks, 200 x 48 bit words), it did not wait for the start of the track to come round, it started at the next decade (ten word) boundary to come around, worked up to the end of the band, set its core address back to the original start address (which had to be a multiple of 200) and worked up to the start of the data already transferred. > > ---------------- > > Roger Holmes: > > Remember? I am restoring/maintaining an ICT 1301 which has individual > Germanium transistors, wire-OR, four and gates to a PCB, one flip- > flop one a PCB, a clock derived from the timing track of the last > addressed drum store, a core store unit weighing half a ton an stores > just 2000 x 48 bit words (plus 2000 x 2 parity bits). Its got Ampex > TM4 mag tape drives (not industry standard 7 or 9 track, these are > ten track units with hubs the same design as professional audio tapes > and the 2 and 3 inch wide video tapes once used by TV broadcasters). > > [Snip] > > --------------------- > Billy: I salute you. I wish more people on this list had your > energy and > love of old metal and were restoring it. I enjoy hearing about your > efforts. Thank you very much. The plan is to get one of my two machines into a museum one day, hopefully both when I am too old to use it/dead. Almost ten years ago the Computer Conservation Society had plans to get one into the Bletchley Park museum and one into the 'Science Museum' but both of them dropped out - I suspect its because a 1301 takes up too much floor space. > > I'm also working on a germanium transistor wired-AND core memory > machine. Ah! Wire-AND. Would this be negative power rail germanium by any chance? If so I suspect the circuits are basically similar but the nomenclature is different. On the 1301, a logic 1 is -6.3 volts and a logic 0 is 0 volts. When fault finding we usually have one person at the console operating the machine and looking at the logic diagrams calling the circuit references to be checked and one on an oscilloscope out of sight describing the display on the 'scope. Most of us are of course familiar with silicon logic and we get confused by calling out 'high' and 'low' because it is so natural, and we find it so difficult to remember high is 0 and low is 1, so we TRY to call out logic 0 and 1 instead, but it so hard to break old habits. > It used TM2's not TM4's. And I've been unable to find any tape units. The 1300s had four different tape subsystem options. The 'High Speed' (90kc/s) system, called tape type 1 (because it was the first developed) was a one inch system using Ampex drives, and IIRC, they were TM2s. They had 16 tracks (8 data and 8 CRC), and ran at 150 ips. My machines TM4 system (4 data 6 CRC tracks) was tape type 3 (22.5kc/ s) and was basically the same electronics with some parts removed and the minimum changes to make it store two frames where the high speed system saved one frame. It runs at only 75 ips. It uses Thyrotrons to turn the pinch rollers on and off. It has small vacuum chambers plus swing arms to buffer and measure the amount of buffered tape, the (air damped) sensors on the swing arms being the only things which control the reel motors - too much slack and the reel motor winds some in, too little and it winds some out. > Did > find the original card reader, a modified Burroughs. > > Still, I consider what you are doing to be the true goal of classic > computers. I read, enjoy and participate with the microprocessor > based list > threads. Me too, though much of it is too much like my everyday job. Its like in the winter I drive my reasonably modern Jag or BMW to work but in the summer I enjoy driving my 1960s Daimler or Rover, and sometimes it feels like an achievement just to get to work, and if I stop for petrol I have to allow an extra ten minutes to chat to people who come over to admire the car. "They don't make them like that any more" or "My uncle used to have one of those". I even had someone who seemed to offer me 30k for a car insured for only 11.5k. > But my real love is in truly "classic" computers like yours. Good. I was lucky enough to buy not just the computers but a load of spares. As yet I've not needed to do much component level repairs. Its the Ampex decks which cause most problems because they are American made, they don't use British components. For the CPU things like light bulbs, the same type were telephone exchanges and cars of the period, which are now classic and hence there is an industry still supplying them. The telephone exchange bulbs crop up on eBay, even sometimes the rarer voltages like 17 volts, and I recently bought almost a hundred 28 volt ones which produce an identical intensity plugged in in place of 24 volt ones. Its the things like the bulbs for the virtual address display (12 miniature projectors, one for each digit 1-8, and letters 'E','L' and 'U' and an underline) which are a problem. They are 6.3 volt 6 watt. I thought I'd cracked it when I picked up some 6 volt car ones rated at 6 watts, assuming that like a 12 volt car system, the charging circuit would run them up to 15 to 20% over-voltage. But they only last about 30 seconds. I've checked the supply and it is only 6.3 volts, I can only assume it must be the enclosed space require a higher operating temperature. Googling has found the GE part number listed as microscope illumination lamps, but it doesn't give the voltage or amperage ratings, and the price was horrendous, so I'm not even sure they really are the right ones, and too tight fisted to take a chance. Maybe if we have a lot of people paying admittance to see the old girl (if she's works on the day) at classic car show I hold at my home in a couple of weeks time. Still, I've bought an old 4 trace HP storage scope (via ebay) on that expected income already, and after only one day's operation it now works for 20 seconds after turning on and the goes clip-clop, clop-clip, repeatedly and so I may have to spend more money and time trying to repair it. Better go to bed now, its 1am, got carried away! > > ---------------- > > Roger Holmes: > >> And many of them were wonderfully different and creative. > > Indeed. And some of them almost make you cry because so much more > could have been done with the same amount of electonics. My machine > has been modified to implement an index instruction. Previously all > indexing and indirection had to be done by program modification, and > even now subroutine return is done that way (see my previous e-mail). > I have one machine in 'conserved' state, unmolested, unrepaired non- > runner, and one with extra tweeks and darn right mass rewiring which > runs and I can't stop thinking about how it could be improved, yet > somehow manage to stop myself doing so. There are so many gaps in the > instruction code and spare bits in the instructions etc. The only > modification I am working on plugs into an extension port lashed up > by a previous owner. This is to capture the data from the machine > onto modern media. May replace with an RS232 interface later to drive > a teletype and/or pen plotter, and/or a parallel inteface for a > Friden Flexowriter. > > [sni] > > Roger Holmes. > Classic computer collector, classic car collector, machine tool > collector/user (for the prior mentioned hobbies), and for a job, > programmer of CAD and graphic software and printer/plotter drivers > for Apple computers. > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 30 17:57:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 23:57:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <200706291147.55861.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jun 29, 7 11:47:55 am Message-ID: [ROM BASIC] > > FURTHERMORE...what was the last computer *any* to > > have it? > > I'm going to guess Acorn Archimedes here. You can get later than that, even sticking with the ARM chip. I am pretty sure the Bush internet set-top box has BBC BASIC In ROM (I forget the key combination to get the '*' prompt, but it'll be on the web somewhere). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 18:03:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 00:03:30 +2500 (BST) Subject: (way OT)--Re: Semi-OT: Interesting or unusual PC Compatibles? In-Reply-To: <46853445.2030005@garlic.com> from "jd" at Jun 29, 7 09:33:09 am Message-ID: > > Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > The HP 100 series were some of the first laptop computers that could run > > DOS. It had DOS, Basic, Lotus and a few other productivity apps in ROM, and > > used the somewhat odd HP-IL bus to interface with peripherals, among them a > > battery powered disk drive. > > > > Hmmm... > > > HPIL -> HPHIL -> + -> USB? > | > PCI > (just a dash of) > Why on earth go via HP-HIL? HPIL and HP-HIL are totally different interfaces, I've never seen an HPIL to HP-HIL interface, HP-HIL interface chips are hard to find (much harder than HPIL chips), and so on. If I wanted to do something like this, I'd link a 1LB3 (HPIL interface chip) to a microconroller with an on-chip USB interface. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 18:12:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 00:12:50 +2500 (BST) Subject: Telephony switches - is there anyone out there collecting these? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70706291710w1afcd98vccd41a595f296aa9@mail.gmail.com> from "Rob" at Jun 30, 7 01:10:33 am Message-ID: > I had a 2B - bought from Display! GPO badge... I ran a BBS on it for > several years (the BBC micro sat on top of it!) until I got a > prototype nightingale auto-answer from Pace. Incidentally, the 2B has a ring-detect relay inside, which asserts Ring Indicate (pin 22) of the RS232 connector when trigger. You have to make a few more conenctions to tbe barrier strip, in particular one to the bell wire in the telephone cabe, and add a 3K resistor (or a Thermistor 13A?). I built a box off TTL that sits on top of the 2B and which does auto-answer (inculuding hanging up after a suitable time delay if it looses carrier), dialing (by toggling the DTR line the right number of times, etc. I probablty still have the scheamtics somewhere, along with the notes I made on linking up the ring detect relay. > > I remember being fascinated by the kit they had available, but it was A lot of it seemed to be very expensive and not in particularly good condition. > tricky enough getting the 2B home to Manchester.. I seem to recall I It couldn't be worse than the time I took a GT40 (complete with monitor) on a train from Bristol to London :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 18:25:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 00:25:13 +2500 (BST) Subject: HP7202A Schematics questions In-Reply-To: <18482630.1183163315154.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Ashley Carder" at Jun 29, 7 08:28:34 pm Message-ID: > > I have spent a little more time looking at the information that I > have. My documentation does not include detailed board schematics. That, alas, is what I half-suspected. Some HP manuals contain very detailed scheamtics, others don't (and there seems to be no 'pattern' to which will and which won't). I'd like to help you, but unfortunately at the moment I am 'working blind'. I don't have such a plotter, and I don't have the manuals. I suspect if I had the insturment in front of me, I'd spot a lot of things quiote quickly. > However, these boards do not look extremely complex. I have figured out > how the pins on the interface are numbered. The top left pin is #1 and > the second (lower) row contains pins 9 thru 15 (left to right). I have Isn't this just a standard DA15 connector? > followed these wires from the adapter to the board, where they are > connected. At the point of connection, there is a number like 901, 902, > 905, etc. I'll bet those identify the wire colours, as I described last night. 901 is white with black and brown strips, 905 is white with black and green stripes, etc (think of the resistor colour code, if you don't know it, find it ;-)) > I also found a page in another manual that shows how to hook the > interface cable to an ASR-33. It has an "in-line" molex style adapter. Do you actually have wirelists/schematics for the cables? > I need to look at that connector on the ASR33 and see how many wires it > contains. Tony probably knows that answer off the top of his head. Which ASR33? No, that's not a stupid question, there are many versions of the electronics ('call control unit') used in the ASR33,. with many different connectors. The most common one for computer/private line working has a 9 terminal barrier strip, not a molex connector. Anyway, manuals for the HP version of the ASR33 are on www.hpmuseum.net How I'd tackle this (but rememebr I've done this before ;-)) FInd a logic ground inmside the plotter, determine if any of the DA15 pins go there (I'll bet at least one does). Ditto for chassis ground. Find the power rails, at least +5V, +12V, -12V. If necessary from power pins of known ICs. Is there power brought out on the DA15? If so, it's posssible some of the cables contained circuitry :-( Look for RS232 drivers/receivers. This thing might use the traditional 1488/1489 chips (but they might be house-coded!). It may be old enough to use a 1489 for receive and an op-amp as the transmit driver (HP certainly did this in other devices). It may even use discrete transistors in part. If you can identify these circuits, see which pins on the DA15 go to them Look for the current loop circuit. The receiver is almost certainly opto-isolated, and optoisolators are the only common 6 pin ICs. Is there one. If so, trace out the circuity rounf the LED side (pins 1 and 2 of the chip if it's conventional). That should go back the the DA15 too. That's a start. If I had the unit in front of me, I'd probably spot quite a bit in a few minutes.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 30 19:01:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 01:01:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4685C5A6.1010009@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Jun 29, 7 10:53:26 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Maybe first-year physics students should be asked to commoent on > > Archimedes' statement :-) > > They were in my freshman physics class at Clarkson. Don;'t keep us (me?) in suspense :-). What conclusions did they come to? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 30 19:04:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 01:04:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jun 29, 7 08:39:46 pm Message-ID: > Thinking about it more, my statement about peripherals might be > stretching it. I don't *recall* any problems with 3rd party > peripherals like modems and whatnot, but I am not 100% certain. The I think the Apricots had pretty standard RS232 and Centronics ports, so there shouldn't have been much problem > F1 doesn't look like it has compatible connectors for standard IBM PC > peripherals, but ISTR that the Xi *did* have ISA slots. The F1 wasn't > intended to be expanded very much -- if you wanted expansion, it was > expected you would buy the Xi. At least that's how our store pitched > it. At least some of the early Apricots had DIN41612 connectors (64 pin in a 2-row hosuing) for the expansion slots -- 2 or 3 slots depending on which version of the mainboard you had. The signals were pretty much the 8086 bus, and thus similar to ISA. Somewhere I have a 16 bit ISA card that has a DIN41612 connector on it, and which lets you use an Apricot expansion board in a PC/AT machine. The reverse would not be possible, since the Apricot case was too small to fit ISA boards in. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 30 19:07:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 01:07:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <200706300441.AAA24993@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 30, 7 00:26:09 am Message-ID: > > > I thing it would probably be interesting to make a computer where the > > building blocks would be tetrahedra, and you would bolt them together > > in 3D configurations. Can you make an icosahedron out of tetrahedra? > > No - at least not assuming you mean a solid regular icosahedron and > regular tetrahedra. The face-to-face angle of a regular tetrahedron is > not a "nice" angle - it's 2*arcsin(.5/sqrt(.75)), or slightly over > 70=BD=B0, distinctly short of the 72=B0 that would let you fit five of th= > em > around a line, but not nearly short enough to fix six of them (60=B0). IIRC, the only one of the 5 platonic solids to pack together and fill space is the cube. Althought I seem to recall a mixture of octaheda and tetrahedra will pack niceely. What I can't remember is if it's the sane number of each, so that a solid formed by sticking a tetrahedron to the face of an octahedron will pack nicely. I seem to remember it will. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 18:41:29 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 00:41:29 +2500 (BST) Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: <4685B788.6060307@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Jun 29, 7 08:53:12 pm Message-ID: > > The 2200 used about 200 TTL parts for the main CPU, plus a lot of low > density ROMS and DRAM for the BASIC ROM and program memories, another 80 The HP9830 has about 80 chips in the bit-serial CPU (mostly TTL and 9 256 nybble PROMs) + memory control (more TTL, perhaps another 40 chips there) + BASIC ROMs (30 512 byte chips) + RAM (16 1103s for each kiloword) + cassette contorl (30 more chips) + display (20 more) + keyboard (another dozen)? I've not counted them all, > I'd be curious to know how fast the 9830 was in comparison. This small > program: > > 10 T=0 > 20 FOR I=1 TO 10000 > 30 T=T+I > 40 NEXT I > 50 PRINT T > 60 END I've just tried it on my 9830 (yes, it still works). The only change I made was line 50 DISP T (to display it on the LED display rather than print it on the 9866 printer). The 9830 is a little slower than the Wang, but not much. It took about 2 minutes to run. > > takes about 90 seconds to run on the 2200T (btw, everything is double > precision BCD). You can see more detailed timing on each BASIC > operation here: > > http://www.wang2200.org/performance.html -tony From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Jun 30 19:29:30 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 01:29:30 +0100 Subject: Drum vs. Core In-Reply-To: <200706291937.l5TJa2xM069653@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200706291937.l5TJa2xM069653@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7869A13C-6B8D-4FC9-AE0E-C91226B06C8C@microspot.co.uk> On 29 Jun, 2007, at 20:37, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > The TDC is almost as impressive as the Arma Mk 1 fire control > computers of the same era, used to calculate the problems of putting a > 16 inch shell on the deck of a ship 20 miles away. PAMPANITO in the > Bay Area (Fisherman's Wharf) has completely restored working TDC, the > result of many many hours of work from a dedicated volunteer. It is up > in the control room, and very hard to see without appointment. In 1986 or 87 I walked through her - usual tourist thing. About the only thing I still remember was the story of the tons of gold brought back in (that?) submarine. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 30 19:48:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 17:48:50 -0700 Subject: What are the really unusual or weird computers? In-Reply-To: References: <200706291147.55861.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jun 29, 7 11:47:55 am, Message-ID: <46869782.27537.E6107C@cclist.sydex.com> Re: ROM BASIC When was the Z88 discontinued? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 30 19:50:44 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 18:50:44 -0600 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <200706290930.43919.gordon@gjcp.net> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200706281502.42870.gordon@gjcp.net> <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk> <200706290930.43919.gordon@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4686FA64.10602@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > http://woodgears.ca/marbleadd/index.html > > I reckon that's on-topic no matter what. I consider the wooden computer case more on topic. There are several intersting items there and worth 5 minutes of your time if you like mechanical oddites or need a lap-top desk. > Gordon > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 30 19:51:29 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 01:51:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fwd: [acug0447] Fwd: Jim Butterfield passes away Message-ID: <695800.65130.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> FYI: Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk rbernardo(at)iglou.com wrote: To: acug0447 at yahoogroups.com,auscbm at yahoogroups.com From: Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 19:53:12 -0400 Subject: [acug0447] Fwd: Jim Butterfield passes away --- Forwarded message --- I regret to advise the Commodore community that Jim Butterfield has passed away. Jim died at 1:30 AM on June 29 after battling cancer which infected many parts of his body. His family advises that there will not be a funeral as such but a commemoration of Jim's life is planned in the next month or two. At the moment that is all the detail that I have to report. We have all lost a truly wonderful friend and teacher. Ernie Chorny Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/acug0447/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/acug0447/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:acug0447-digest at yahoogroups.com mailto:acug0447-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: acug0447-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 30 20:28:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 18:28:38 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4686FA64.10602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200706290930.43919.gordon@gjcp.net>, <4686FA64.10602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4686A0D6.30052.10A7DE3@cclist.sydex.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > http://woodgears.ca/marbleadd/index.html > > I reckon that's on-topic no matter what. Watching the thing work brings to mind the head positioner on the Univac Fastrand FH drums--basically solenoids driven by each bit of the head position address (e.g. 8421) and via a system of levers, translated to a physical head position. How's that for on-topic? Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 30 21:54:50 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:54:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4685EF5D.9000608@gmail.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> <200706300441.AAA24993@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4685EF5D.9000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200707010300.XAA00584@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Can you make an icosahedron out of tetrahedra? >> No - at least not assuming you mean a solid regular icosahedron and >> regular tetrahedra. [...] > No, I'm not sure I meant a solid icosahedron. I was only thinking as > far as a tetrahedron has equilateral triangles as faces, and so does > an icosahedron. Then yes, there's no reason you couldn't take 20 tetrahedra and position them so as to result in something that's basically a tetrahedron constructed, inward-pointing, on each face of an icosahedron. (It might not be all that easy to realize physically, but that's a separate issue.) I'm not sure it would be worth doing, though; the tetrahedra would touch one another only along the edges of the icosahedron, limiting the communication possibilities. You could, of course, use non-regular tetrahedra formed such that each one can be described as three vertices plus the centre of an icosahedron; then they'd fit snugly (but not be good for much else). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Jun 30 22:21:18 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <4686A0D6.30052.10A7DE3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200706290930.43919.gordon@gjcp.net>, <4686FA64.10602@jetnet.ab.ca> <4686A0D6.30052.10A7DE3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jun 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 18:28:38 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Billy Pettit real disappointment > > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> http://woodgears.ca/marbleadd/index.html >> >> I reckon that's on-topic no matter what. > > Watching the thing work brings to mind the head positioner on the > Univac Fastrand FH drums--basically solenoids driven by each bit of > the head position address (e.g. 8421) and via a system of levers, > translated to a physical head position. > > How's that for on-topic? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > Wasn't there a 5-1/4 hard drive (late 80s) that did a similar thing, some kind of telescoping binary length set of solenoids (Ontrax?) Peter Wallace From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 30 22:26:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:26:32 -0600 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <200707010300.XAA00584@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> <200706300441.AAA24993@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4685EF5D.9000608@gmail.com> <200707010300.XAA00584@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46871EE8.30604@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > Then yes, there's no reason you couldn't take 20 tetrahedra and > position them so as to result in something that's basically a > tetrahedron constructed, inward-pointing, on each face of an > icosahedron. (It might not be all that easy to realize physically, but > that's a separate issue.) You lost me years ago, but all this talk of constructing uncommon geometric shapes reminds me a good use of a physical one. * > You could, of course, use non-regular tetrahedra formed such that each > one can be described as three vertices plus the centre of an > icosahedron; then they'd fit snugly (but not be good for much else). Mathematical Games from Scientific American , years ago a had a good bit about packing n-dimension spheres. You get several paradoxs with that. ----- * When causing trouble by walking on your keys. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 30 22:27:53 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:27:53 -0600 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: <200707010300.XAA00584@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk>, <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> <200706300441.AAA24993@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4685EF5D.9000608@gmail.com> <200707010300.XAA00584@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46871F39.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: (Now with link) http://www.sentex.ca/~mwandel/built/insane.html > Then yes, there's no reason you couldn't take 20 tetrahedra and > position them so as to result in something that's basically a > tetrahedron constructed, inward-pointing, on each face of an > icosahedron. (It might not be all that easy to realize physically, but > that's a separate issue.) You lost me years ago, but all this talk of constructing uncommon geometric shapes reminds me a good use of a physical one. * > You could, of course, use non-regular tetrahedra formed such that each > one can be described as three vertices plus the centre of an > icosahedron; then they'd fit snugly (but not be good for much else). Mathematical Games from Scientific American , years ago a had a good bit about packing n-dimension spheres. You get several paradoxs with that. ----- * When causing trouble by walking on your keys. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 30 23:22:38 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 00:22:38 -0400 Subject: Anybody have some Bay Networks parts? References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org> <46842C02.4030004@yahoo.co.uk> <46843E15.5000003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4683F2C8.32371.1C9BF76@cclist.sydex.com> <20070628185318.G62520@shell.lmi.net> <4684BF5D.8030404@yahoo.co.uk> <4684C919.8040809@gmail.com> <200706300441.AAA24993@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4685EF5D.9000608@gmail.com> <200707010300.XAA00584@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46871F39.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004c01c7bb98$d2ab6720$0b01a8c0@game> One of my cats had the misfortune to throw up on the power supply to my Bay Networks Instant Internet 100 router. The cat is fine (now that his hairball is out), but the power supply is toasted. Looking for a 721-030-C supply (+5V 2.5A, +12V .7A, -12V .1A). I am using my backup Linksys router, but for some reason it times out on newsgroups all the time and email most of the time (even if I set the computer to DMZ mode). Thanks for any help TZ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 30 23:41:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:41:07 -0700 Subject: Billy Pettit real disappointment In-Reply-To: References: <200706280359.l5S3wGiQ026813@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4686A0D6.30052.10A7DE3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4686CDF3.2224.1BAB5D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jun 2007 at 20:21, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Wasn't there a 5-1/4 hard drive (late 80s) that did a similar thing, some kind > of telescoping binary length set of solenoids (Ontrax?) Did you know Joe Koenig? He ran that outfit while it lasted, but I didn't think that they produced anything but a prototype before they discovered that there were fatal problems with the idea. Joe was pretty proud that he wrapped the operation up cleanly, without any of the VCs losing much. IIRC, it was a 100MB unit that they were shooting for. He went on to run Resonex (NMR imaging). I stayed in touch with him for quite awhile. He passed away 15 years or so ago. A guy who absolutely loved his work--and loved life. I was privleged to know him. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jun 30 23:51:55 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: imsai ram4 board Message-ID: What sort of fun could one have with an IMSAI ram4 board? I don't think I want to sell it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 30 08:57:53 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:57:53 -0400 Subject: Drum vs. Core Message-ID: <0JKG00F7DC360YE4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Drum vs. Core > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:49:22 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >While the main store on the IBM 650, didn't most of the installed >base (eventually) also have 50 words of core as sort of a >"scratchpad" memory? > >Cheers, >Chuck This was common. The problem with rotating memory, mercury delay, magnostrictive delay and even shift registers is they are not random access they are sequential access They all have a fixed delay and you wait for what you want to "come around". Programmers had to program around that if speed was required. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 30 09:08:01 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:08:01 -0400 Subject: Drum vs. Core Message-ID: <0JKG005Q1CK1TEZ3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Drum vs. Core > From: Roger Holmes > Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:27:10 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >> >> Core was available by 1952, most of the big machines after this >> date (on this side >> of the pond at least) were core based. The IBM 650 was actually one >> of the smaller >> machines, at least inasmuch as IBM was already making much larger >> machines >> (the 700 series). > >Wasn't core memory very expensive in the beginning? Yes and new. It was also temperature sensitive as the required ferrites and circuits were not fully developed. > It had to be hand >assembled, at least in the early days. I think there was a more >gradual take up than you suggest. Of course the more expensive >machines which used it first saw a huge speed increase over drum main >memory. When I was at university (71-74), the college's mainframe >still used a drum from program overlays (probably really the virtual >memory backing storage, but possibly just dumping and restoring the >whole program between time slices. The machine was no slouch, it was >serving about a hundred terminals and running a couple of batch >streams as well (Maximop and George 2). Actually core appeared in two places in machines. TX2 was an exellent example where core was used as main store and also there was a far smaller "fast store" using core that was really for use as registers. >Mid 1970s I remember seeing a small plastic pot about the size of a >35mm film canister, which was full of about 100,000 unstrung cores, >they were tiny! They were used in the Marconi-Elliott 920ATC computer >and also in the early Cruise missiles and some torpedoes. Ever >wondered why a British submarine used a WW2 type torpedo to sink the >big Argentinian Cruiser? My theory is that they were too worried >about the modern torpedoes coming back and blowing themselves up, so >they used one they trusted to go where it was pointed. Hopefully 25 >years on, they've sorted out the terrible guidance system. Not >related, but apparently the programmers were in a quandary as to what >the program should do after it had issued the order to detonate. Like >the old TV series 'Waiting for God'. > >The first machine which ICT introduced with core memory was in 1962, >though physically large, the 1300 was a medium power machine, seen >more as a versatile tabulator for accounts rather than scientific >work, though it had a structural frame analysis package and even >PERT, though I suppose that is just up market accounting in a way. >Customers did all sorts of other work on it too, helping to design >'planes and even playing music on the built in speaker. There's a >wonderful program called Ghost, only a half a dozen instructions, >which uses the variable length of the multiply instruction to make a >ghostly sound on the speaker. Its a good test of the CPU too, and can >be keyed in through the control panel if need be in a minute or so. >Also has drums - each one 12000 words x 48 bits run by a 3/4 >horsepower motor and occupying 2ft x 2ft x 5 ft. Compared to the 8GB >SDHC card for my 12MP camera which is about an inch by an inch by a >sixteenth and stores 100,000 times as much in about 1 / 500,000 times >the volume. And the core store is one sixth the capacity of the drum >in a greater volume. I remember the fixed head (head per track) word parallel swapping drums on PDP-10s. Those were 128kW but fairly small and motors were on a 1/4hp scale. That and the PDP-8 32k fixed head platter (RS08) that were often used for swapping as they were fast using multiple fixed heads and working as word parallel. Around the time of the Altair you could buy surplus drums most fixed head that were fairly small physically and techically easy to interface though the amount of repeated circuits were large in quanitity. Allison From cchiesa1 at rochester.rr.com Thu Jun 28 17:40:19 2007 From: cchiesa1 at rochester.rr.com (Chris Chiesa) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:40:19 -0400 Subject: New Email Address Message-ID: Hi. My apologies to those of you who already know this; I am going through my address book somewhat indiscriminately. :-) I am sending this message to a melange of my friends, family, and business contacts. I have moved (from Rochester, NY, to Canastota, NY) and very shortly will no longer be at cchiesa1 at rochester.rr.com. My new e-mail address will be cchiesa1 at twcny.rr.com . Please use it henceforth. Thank you! Chris Chiesa