From wizard at voyager.net Mon Jan 1 00:02:08 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 01:02:08 -0500 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <45982CAE.9020109@brutman.com> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> <45980BA0.80605@brutman.com> <45982CAE.9020109@brutman.com> Message-ID: <1167631329.13407.10.camel@linux.site> On Sun, 2006-12-31 at 15:33 -0600, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > In the case of a really old system like that, it doesn't matter what the > network is - the network will never be the problem, unless I use bongos > as the transport mechanism. Keep it in historical context... Bongos were a significant speed increase over smoke signals. Also, I note that you COULD have a slow network (10baseT) have an adverse effect upon your 1.5 Mbit (IIRC) broadband connection. That could happen if the network is jammed with traffic, and the collision rate is such that the packets from the broadband can't get through in timely fashion. In that case, increasing the network speed of the local machines would reduce the time they spent occupying the network. Most times, it won't matter, granted, but it COULD slow you down. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 1 00:03:53 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 01:03:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200701010609.BAA14542@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Some of you noted from last time that there is no character echoing > or line editing. Telnet users on Unix machines will probably have > local line editing, which makes things a wee bit nicer. Yes, I found I did. > The standard Windows telnet client doesn't do that by default, so you > will type but not see your characters. That's a project for a > different day. What, fixing Windows telnet to actually conform to the spec? Yes, that's quite a project. :-) > And lastly, if you remember, type in your OS and machine type as a > command. It will complain about it being an invalid command, but > I'll see it in the log and I'll have a better idea of what I'm > testing against. Actually, it complained about it being two or three "Bogus command"s (I'm not sure what the relevant difference between the two-complaint ones and the three-complaint ones is.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Jan 1 00:19:24 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 00:19:24 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <1167631329.13407.10.camel@linux.site> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> <45980BA0.80605@brutman.com> <45982CAE.9020109@brutman.com> <1167631329.13407.10.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <4598A7EC.3040502@brutman.com> Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Sun, 2006-12-31 at 15:33 -0600, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > >> In the case of a really old system like that, it doesn't matter what the >> network is - the network will never be the problem, unless I use bongos >> as the transport mechanism. > > > Keep it in historical context... Bongos were a significant speed > increase over smoke signals. > > Also, I note that you COULD have a slow network (10baseT) have an > adverse effect upon your 1.5 Mbit (IIRC) broadband connection. That > could happen if the network is jammed with traffic, and the collision > rate is such that the packets from the broadband can't get through in > timely fashion. In that case, increasing the network speed of the local > machines would reduce the time they spent occupying the network. Most > times, it won't matter, granted, but it COULD slow you down. > > The bongo reference was tongue in cheek - I was alluding to this: The Bongo Project: TCP/IP via Primitive Communication http://eagle.auc.ca/%7edreid/index.html The point being that my slowest machines will never be able to saturate a 10Mbps Ethernet, or cause the collisions at the rate you allude to. My PCjr can do at best 40KB/sec over the Ethernet, quite a bit less if disk I/O is involved. But you're welcome to try - the Jr is up and running. :-) (See my previous email about TCP/IP Testing help) Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Jan 1 00:22:15 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 00:22:15 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <200701010609.BAA14542@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <200701010609.BAA14542@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4598A897.4040803@brutman.com> der Mouse wrote: >> Actually, it complained about it being two or three "Bogus command"s > (I'm not sure what the relevant difference between the two-complaint > ones and the three-complaint ones is.) The TCP/IP part has been interesting and fun. String parsing and doing a user interface is not as fun, hence the limited set of commands and lack of edit capability. At least for testing the TCP/IP code, it'll do for now .. I saw your session in real-time on the tcpdump. I suspect it didn't disconnect cleanly, so I'll be going back through the logs to find out what happened. (My side timed out sending a packet to your side.) Thanks again, Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 1 00:38:09 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:38:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <1167631329.13407.10.camel@linux.site> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> <45980BA0.80605@brutman.com> <45982CAE.9020109@brutman.com> <1167631329.13407.10.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <20061231223151.P22918@shell.lmi.net> > > In the case of a really old system like that, it doesn't matter what the > > network is - the network will never be the problem, unless I use bongos > > as the transport mechanism. On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Keep it in historical context... Bongos were a significant speed > increase over smoke signals. ?? ~1100 feet per second v 186,000 miles per second But bongos could operate without line of sight, and with or without ambient light. Neither seems to be supported by current MICROS~1 software. So, reliability is likely to be higher than modern NICs. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 02:17:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 00:17:36 -0800 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> Message-ID: <45985320.25038.73BA6E5@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2006 at 23:50, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I'm back at it again - I plan on doing better this time. (I've fixed the > specific double delete bug that bit me last time, improved tracing quite a > bit, and added a lot of consistency checking code.) I telnet-ed from my Windoze to a Linux box and ran Telnet from there to your server to get echoing. (What's the record for nested telnets?) It looked pretty good, but then I fired off some garbage characters at it and it quit responding. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 1 02:22:57 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 02:22:57 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4598C4E1.4080702@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Am I thinking correctly or am I likely to see > an improvement in internet access speed if I upgrade? You will see 0% improvement in internet access speed. However, moving your entire internal network to 100mbps makes things like network storage a convenience, and 1000mbps makes it transparent. Half a decade ago I upgraded everything to 100mbps and it became possible for me to edit video over the network (DV, which is 3.125MB/s, easily within the realm of 100mbps). That really helped my workflow, as I could put all my crap in one place but edit any project from any machine I wanted. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 1 02:25:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 02:25:14 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <4597E9B0.23322.59FCD56@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com>, <45982A14.5070302@shiresoft.com>, <4597E9B0.23322.59FCD56@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4598C56A.40006@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Could the second hub and the translation/turnaround over the coax > link between the two be the culprit? Only if you're running at half duplex and/or have some sort of collision nightmare. > Just trying to figure out why a 2 GHz box is getting consistently > beaten by a 225 MHz one. Boot knoppix (linux on a CD that runs completely off of the CD) and run "netstat -in" to see if the 2Ghz box is suffering from something obvious. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 1 02:27:02 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 02:27:02 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4598C5D6.4090203@oldskool.org> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Here is a picture of the machine you are connecting to, complete with > the Western Digital 8003 Ethernet card grafted onto the side: BTW, I'd like to re-re-direct people to that photograph. That has to be the only PCjr in existence with real functioning ISA cards. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 02:27:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 00:27:49 -0800 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <003301c72d4c$bc2934d0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com>, <003301c72d4c$bc2934d0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45985585.4266.74504D6@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2006 at 20:29, Jay West wrote: > This sounds like the classic problem of a duplex mismatch between the device > and the hub. A lot of folks don't realize it, but when you mix > 10mb/HDX/100mb/FDX devices in a single network - you would THINK that the > devices would autonegotiate identical settings on both ends. I took some older Socket 7 boards with both ISA and PCI slots with CPUs ranging from an Intel 166 (no MMX) to a K6 PR300. Tried about 5 different PCI 100BaseT NICs and only a single generic NE2000 10BaseT ISA card. In every case, the ISA card was faster than the PCI cards (talking to a 10BaseT hub) when doing an A-B comparison in the same box. OSes were Win98 and Win2K. I suppose I should throw in some Linux just to be fair, but I didn't do it this round. To be fair, I used different cables and ports on the hub. I think you've hit the nail on the head, Jay--at least it seems that way. I've got a few more tests to do before I'm sure. To say that I'm surprised is an understatement. Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Mon Jan 1 02:37:02 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 03:37:02 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20070101083702.GD17269@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Michael B. Brutman once stated: > > Happy New Year! Happy New Year! > I'm back at it again - I plan on doing better this time. (I've fixed > the specific double delete bug that bit me last time, improved tracing > quite a bit, and added a lot of consistency checking code.) > > Just like last time, all you need to do is telnet to 24.159.203.149, > port 2301. Once again, that's my Linux box, but today it is forwarding > port 2301 to my PCjr. The commands are slightly enhanced from the last > test, but it isn't anything highly interactive. > > Up to 9 people can connect simultaneously. We didn't get more than 2 or > 3 simultaneous connections last time, so I'm probably overly optimistic. Well, I tested the nine simultaneous connections and yes, it seems to work, although pressing ^C causes whatever program is listening on the other end of the TCP connection to stop responding to commands. > Here is a picture of the machine you are connecting to, complete with > the Western Digital 8003 Ethernet card grafted onto the side: > > http://brutman.com/PCjr_WD_small.jpg Very neat. How did you do that to a PCjr? Some sort of hacked up ISA bus or something? > And lastly, if you remember, type in your OS and machine type as a > command. It will complain about it being an invalid command, but I'll > see it in the log and I'll have a better idea of what I'm testing against. sockets 9 sockets are active, 0 more are available Ip Address and Port MSS State Started 66.252.226.50:61108 1432 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 192.168.2.1:3018 1460 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 66.252.226.50:61097 1432 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 65.11.56.196:42377 1452 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 66.252.226.50:61111 1432 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 66.252.227.139:52611 1460 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 66.165.166.190:49217 1460 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 64.124.179.116:36491 1460 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 204.29.162.199:38999 1460 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 These (with the exception of the 192.168.2.1 address) are me. All Linux systems (2.0 to 2.6) with one Mac mini thrown in. -spc (Oh, and your system clock is a bit off 8-) From grant at stockly.com Mon Jan 1 03:12:12 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 00:12:12 -0900 Subject: Altair 680 CSAVE Problems!@ : ( Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231234847.03956f20@pop.1and1.com> I'm having a ton of trouble saving a program on a cassette tape using Altair 680 basic. Was there a KCACR basic made without the CSAVE command? My basic appears to have a CSAVE command, but it won't accept the name!!!!! : ( I'm sending this to two groups. I've been at this problem for hours now... : ( I'll post a transcript below. Let me know what I'm doing wrong! : ( -------------------- .J FD00 (cassette bootstrap rom address) (basic loading) (basic loaded) .J 0000 (run basic...) MEMORY SIZE? TERMINAL WIDTH? 80 WANT SIN-COS-TAN-ATN? YES 9604 BYTES FREE MITS ALTAIR 680 BASIC VERSION 1.1 REV 3.2 --KCACR-- COPYRIGHT 1976 BY MITS INC. OK 10 PRINT "HELLO" 20 GOTO 10 CSAVE A ?TM ERROR OK -------------------- TM is a type mismatch error. SM is for a command it doesn't understand. Watch... -------------------- CSAVE A ?TM ERROR OK CSAVE ?SN ERROR OK AHHHH! ?SN ERROR OK AHHHH! A ?SN ERROR OK -------------------- Am I wrong assuming that because it gives me a TM error instead of SN that it is "trying" to work? I get the same things for CLOAD... How in the world are you supposed to save something to tape! : ( If I have the wrong version of basic, anyone have the right one? What will it take for me to get a copy! : ) (first smile in this e-mail... ; ) ) Thanks, Grant From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jan 1 06:24:08 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 07:24:08 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070101122408.42592BA4257@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Richard wrote: > In article <45981727.2040705 at jetnet.ab.ca>, > woodelf writes: > > > Richard wrote: > > > > > Is it even possible to build with RTL parts anymore? > > > > > > I guess you'd have to do it PDP-8 style with discrete transistors? > > Well I don't like the FPGA idea -- TTL/DTL/RTL logic is still > > visible logic. What good is FPGA's if the windows gets updated and > > the FPGA software is not supported. PALS and GALS I could see used. > > Sense not making, you. I have hand-programmed PALs all the way from pencil-and-paper logic to putting the right volts on the right pins and hitting a one-shot to do the fuse-blowing. No computer necessary at all. It was decades ago but I did it! Non-registered PALs can also be reverse-engineered without any fancy tools (although I'll admit that I usually use a computer to do so, a couple times I have found all the possibilities for "what address does this thing decode?" with just some 7493's and a 555.) Now all that probably could be done for GALs and even FPGA's but I haven't done that :-). Even most GALS do not have publicly released programming specs. I will gladly admit that the "moral equivalent of the visible PAL" is the guy who built a processor from discrete surface mount parts where the "programmable logic" was using/not using arrays (of diodes? most likely) of parts on pluggable PCB's. Don't have the URL handy and Google isn't helping. End result seemed to be more compact and functional for homebrew processor purposes than DIP PAL's, and a lot more visible. Tim. From Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com Mon Jan 1 06:39:27 2007 From: Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com (Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 07:39:27 EST Subject: Altair 680 CSAVE Problems!@ : ( Message-ID: Hi, sometime you must use "A" to save a file, (CSAVE "A") or lower case, worth a try. Al DePermentier From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Jan 1 08:23:19 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 08:23:19 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <20070101083702.GD17269@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <20070101083702.GD17269@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <45991957.2040606@brutman.com> Hi guys, It fell over again during a session with Spc. This failure isn't so obvious .. it seems to function normally, and then the consistency checking finds the heap corruption. Once again, thanks for the help. Time to do a post-mortem. Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Jan 1 08:26:00 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 08:26:00 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <20070101083702.GD17269@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <20070101083702.GD17269@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <459919F8.6090803@brutman.com> Sean Conner wrote: > Well, I tested the nine simultaneous connections and yes, it seems to > work, although pressing ^C causes whatever program is listening on the other > end of the TCP connection to stop responding to commands. I think that's a telnet feature - it probably sent an 'interrupt' command, and the other side is not a real telnet server so it doesn't respond in the proper way. > >> Here is a picture of the machine you are connecting to, complete with >> the Western Digital 8003 Ethernet card grafted onto the side: >> >> http://brutman.com/PCjr_WD_small.jpg > > Very neat. How did you do that to a PCjr? Some sort of hacked up ISA bus > or something? ISA bus to PCjr bus adapter :-) >> And lastly, if you remember, type in your OS and machine type as a >> command. It will complain about it being an invalid command, but I'll >> see it in the log and I'll have a better idea of what I'm testing against. > > sockets > > 9 sockets are active, 0 more are available > Ip Address and Port MSS State Started > 66.252.226.50:61108 1432 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 > 192.168.2.1:3018 1460 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 > 66.252.226.50:61097 1432 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 > 65.11.56.196:42377 1452 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 > 66.252.226.50:61111 1432 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 > 66.252.227.139:52611 1460 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 > 66.165.166.190:49217 1460 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 > 64.124.179.116:36491 1460 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 > 204.29.162.199:38999 1460 ESTABLISHED Mon Jan 01 02:13:50 2007 > > These (with the exception of the 192.168.2.1 address) are me. All Linux > systems (2.0 to 2.6) with one Mac mini thrown in. > > -spc (Oh, and your system clock is a bit off 8-) > > It wasn't too long after this that it died, so I'm going to test 9 simultaneous connections here. Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Jan 1 09:16:25 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 09:16:25 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <459919F8.6090803@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <20070101083702.GD17269@linus.groomlake.area51> <459919F8.6090803@brutman.com> Message-ID: <459925C9.2050605@brutman.com> Found it! Testing is open again - hammer away at will! (Hopefully this time I'm just going to sit back with a nice glow and monitor it working perfectly.) The postmortem: Consistency checking is a good thing. The runtime of my compier has a 'heapcheck' function that walks the heap and verifies that everything is in order. I have some code controlled by a #def that is doing this checking (along with checking my own data structures) fairly often. It impacts performance, but at least I can get closer the problem.) There were almost no symptoms for this heap corruption - the machine was running fine, sessions were still going, and DOS didn't behave badly after I shut the server down. Nor could I see an obviously bad flow in the traces. So I started diagnostics on the machine, thinking it was a fluke. While I was walking the dog this morning, it occurred to me what happened. Simple buffer overun .. I allocated only 512 bytes for output per session, but tried sending quite a bit more. Spc exposed my crap coding with the 'sockets' command that showed nine sessions .. The last time I tested with 9 simultaneous connections I didn't have the consistency checking, so I was probably corrupting heap and not realizing it. Telnet users: My understanding of telnet is that it is a protocol, not just raw characters. So when you hit Ctrl-C under a typical Telnet client in Unix, you are sending the equivalent of a 'process' interrupt. I see lots of funny characters on my side, but they'll get consumed and life goes on. I suspect that telnet is not so tolerant though, and is expecting a proper response back from the telnet server. I don't have a real telnet server here - it's not negotiating options or talking the official protocol. Short story .. don't bother with control chars. My code doesn't care, and I think the normal telnet clients get tied up because my code isn't responding right. Anybody notice the BIOS date and machine ID? That's generated at runtime, not a static string. :-) Thanks again, and party on! Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 1 11:01:52 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 12:01:52 -0500 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> On Dec 31, 2006, at 7:31 AM, Grant Stockly wrote: > This is my attempt at an "art" x-ray. > > This image includes the entire range of densities. If I were to > penetrate the motor I would blow through the plastic. > > This is a high resolution x-ray. Zoom into the front label and see > if you can read the embossed name plates... What COLOR is this > actual drive? The answer is in there! ; ) > > http://www.stockly.com/images2/061231- > Disk_II_Drive-120kv6ma15msDG35SFD.jpg > > This shot was taken with the drive elevated at an angle by foam so > that you would get a 3d feeling and not a flat picture. > > Let me know if its cool. I may x-ray an entire computer next... : ) It's extremely cool. What's with you and the x-rays lately? Did you score an x-ray machine somewhere recently? (I ask out of jealousy...I'd love a small x-ray setup [and the knowledge to use it] for soldering BGA components). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From wizard at voyager.net Mon Jan 1 11:15:32 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 12:15:32 -0500 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <20061231223151.P22918@shell.lmi.net> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> <45980BA0.80605@brutman.com> <45982CAE.9020109@brutman.com> <1167631329.13407.10.camel@linux.site> <20061231223151.P22918@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1167671733.13407.17.camel@linux.site> On Sun, 2006-12-31 at 22:38 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > Keep it in historical context... Bongos were a significant speed > > increase over smoke signals. > > ?? > ~1100 feet per second v 186,000 miles per second Oh, SURE, the PROPAGATION speed is higher for smoke signals, the delay comes in filling the "cache" with smoke to let it go, and different interpretations of various clouds of smoke, necessitating error retries. > But bongos could operate without line of sight, > and with or without ambient light. Yes, an attribute not seen again in the commercial market until the advent of SneakerNet. > Neither seems to be supported by current MICROS~1 software. > So, reliability is likely to be higher than modern NICs. The EXISTENCE of software from MICROS~1 does not, in itself, degrade a NIC -- one has to actually RUN the software to mess things up. My NIC has only run Linux drivers, and has functioned perfectly. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Jan 1 11:31:25 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:31:25 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <003301c72d4c$bc2934d0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> <45982A14.5070302@shiresoft.com> <4597E9B0.23322.59FCD56@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070101112442.0d6eb380@localhost> At 08:29 PM 12/31/2006 -0600, you wrote: >You wrote... >>Just trying to figure out why a 2 GHz box is getting consistently >>beaten by a 225 MHz one. > >This sounds like the classic problem of a duplex mismatch between the >device and the hub. A lot of folks don't realize it, but when you mix >10mb/HDX/100mb/FDX devices in a single network - you would THINK that the >devices would autonegotiate identical settings on both ends. C'mon, they >even SAY they autonegotiate on the box, and they DO have an 'auto' >setting, right? Fact is, they get it wrong better than 80% of the time. >Even two devices from the same manufacturer usually don't autonegotiate >right. Pretend that "autonegotiation" doesn't exist. Set both ends >manually to identical settings. If one > >Some will say - this can't be... I plug them in and they work, and the >right speed lights come on! And they pass traffic JUST fine. Don't trust >this. FDX/HDX mismatches can create very odd looking wierdness. Like a >connection that SEEMS to work, but is actually working very poorly. Yeah, I can attest. We used to have one particular run of 3Com cards that negotiated the wrong duplex about 25% of the time when used with one particular kind of 10/100 blade in a Cisco Catalyst 5000 series switch. The symptoms were that the connection would work ok, and ping tests seemed to indicate all was well, but as you loaded the connection down a little, it would start having errors and retries, until the retries overwhelmed any real work being done. Any time someone reported a good connection that would hang, timeout, and quit with errors whenever you tried to copy a file over it (larger than a few k) I know what the problem was. A firmware upgrade fixed some of it. Policy fixed the rest: Thou shalt set the speed and duplex we tell you to on your PC, or we'll disable your port. No Auto/Auto permitted. Better gear and Corporate Standard NICs eliminated the problem after a while. [Computing] The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence. --E.W.Dijkstra, 18th June 1975. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Jan 1 11:46:15 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:46:15 -0600 Subject: SCSI CD cabinets In-Reply-To: <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061231003741.0be38e00@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost> <459654D7.2070409@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20061231003741.0be38e00@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070101114234.0cd209a8@localhost> At 11:32 PM 12/30/2006 -0800, you wrote: >On 31 Dec 2006 at 0:38, Tom Peters wrote: > > > But they were amusing. Well, sort of amusing. > >If I had a nice cabinet like that, I'd fill it with one each of >various types of floppy drives (except for 8") and a switch. >Let's see -- one 1.44, one 720K, 1 1.3MB for 3.5", one 100 tpi 5.25", >1 360K, 1 1.2MB. Given that the 100 tpi is a full height unit, >that's 7 half-height drives. Would take a bit of hacking, but it >should work. > >Right now, except for the FH drives, I use IBM PS/2 Diskette >Adapter/A cabinets, one for each drive. I guess you could, if you were willing to trick up your own front panel, or make it all fit into 5.25" vertical openings. The drives are standard 5?" with proprietary rails, so two thumbscrews allow removal of the drive. The rails are simple wide U-stock, maybe 1.25" wide, with the flat wide edge bolted to the drive. The legs of the U are less than a quarter inch and ride on slots milled in the cabinet. Simple and elegant. [Commentary] Putting smokers and non-smokers in the same room is like having a urinating and a non-urinating section in a swimming pool. --- Ross Parker --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From rcini at optonline.net Mon Jan 1 12:05:59 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 13:05:59 -0500 Subject: Closet-cleaning Message-ID: <019a01c72dcf$7def3f60$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I was doing some closet-cleaning in the shop this weekend and came across a few things I have no use for any longer or were bought for projects that never got off the ground (and probably won't). If anyone's interested in anything, please email me off list. Shipping to the US only is not included. Trades considered. * Seagate 9gb full-height SCSI hard drive (new but unused/untested); ST940800N: $10 * Compaq-badged external DLT drive 5/10gb (SCSI-I; working last time used): $25 * Panasonic 616 phone system with 4 keysets (untested but bought working). I have manuals in electronic form: $50 * STD-BUS 14-slot card cage with assortment of cards (2 analog, 2 digital, 2 relay, Z80 CPU and DSKY. May have other cards in it). I think I have docs for most of the cards and a disassembly of the ROM. NASA surplus. All cards should work but it was some sort of data acquisition or process control system so I never finished fully decoding the ROM to see what it did. $75 * SpareTimeGizmos SB6120 PDP-8 fully built and working in a Lucite case. All that's needed is 5v adapter. Includes CF adapter and 16mb CF card with four disk images. $250 (reflects actual costs of partial kit and parts I bought). * TI-74 BASIC-Calc system. Includes unit, PC324 printer and AC adapter. I will also include CD of random information and programs that I had collected. $40. I'm looking specifically for a Tandy CM-1 color monitor for my Tandy 2000 and a small self-contained PC/104 SBC (stand-alone -- not for use with a backplane) with at least a 486 CPU. I'm also looking for an older Mac Mini (1.42ghz version with Airport/Bluetooth). Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Jan 1 12:14:36 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 12:14:36 -0600 Subject: SCSI CD cabinets In-Reply-To: References: <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost> <459654D7.2070409@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20061231003741.0be38e00@localhost> <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070101114648.0d703ec8@localhost> At 03:45 AM 12/31/2006 -0500, you wrote: >On 12/31/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>I'm just sorry that I gave away my old 7 CD unit. > >I have something like that I was thinking about digging out... it's a >table-top unit, with a 2X drive and a 7-disc internal changer. I was >contemplating seeing if I could replace the transport with a SCSI >DVD-ROM unit just for fun, as 7 CDs isn't all that interesting. I still have this slick Nakamichi 7 disk scsi CD changer with audio outputs on the back. Something like MBR-7?? I wish I had a killer application for it. I wonder if it has enough front panel control to use it as an audio CD player without connecting to the scsi bus at all-- something like I'm doing with my NEC Multispin 6x caddy type CD drive. I have it connected to my stereo, via coax digital audio out. I only have 4 or 5 caddies laying around though. >As for the OP's question, if _I_ had a 7 *transport* box, I'd consider >replacing most or all of the transports with SCSI DVD-ROMs for a >decent amount of archival storage readback. I could back interesting >things up to DVD-R on a single writer, then keep the most important >stuff available for readback. It's not as much storage as even a >moderate-sized RAID array, but it isn't likely to suffer from >headcrashes, etc. > >-ethan [Commentary] ...nothing banned in Singapore can be all bad. --Cosma R. Shalizi, on The Economist --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jan 1 12:37:08 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 10:37:08 -0800 Subject: Network question Message-ID: If it isn't hampering you, I wouldn't mess with it, but > But it's the hubs I wonder about--two old > National Semi 6-port Datamover 10BaseT units coupled together with a > 10Base2 (coax) link. It's that coax that I dread replacing--it goes > between floors and snaking it through the walls was a real chore. > Keep in mind that this time around it won't be so hard- just attach two nylon strings to the coax, pull it out, attach your fiber or UTP to one of the strings and pull it up. Leave the other string in the wall if you ever need a second line. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 1 12:42:04 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 13:42:04 -0500 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 01 January 2007 12:01, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 31, 2006, at 7:31 AM, Grant Stockly wrote: > > This is my attempt at an "art" x-ray. > > > > This image includes the entire range of densities. If I were to > > penetrate the motor I would blow through the plastic. > > > > This is a high resolution x-ray. Zoom into the front label and see > > if you can read the embossed name plates... What COLOR is this > > actual drive? The answer is in there! ; ) > > > > http://www.stockly.com/images2/061231- > > Disk_II_Drive-120kv6ma15msDG35SFD.jpg > > > > This shot was taken with the drive elevated at an angle by foam so > > that you would get a 3d feeling and not a flat picture. > > > > Let me know if its cool. I may x-ray an entire computer next... : > > ) > > It's extremely cool. What's with you and the x-rays lately? Did > you score an x-ray machine somewhere recently? (I ask out of > jealousy...I'd love a small x-ray setup [and the knowledge to use it] > for soldering BGA components). He said in an earlier message, that it was at his place of employment. :) He's aparently not as crazy as I am to have some x-ray gear at home (then again, I've never used it partly because I don't know enough about dosages to determine what's safe, and how much to use to expose film properly, etc). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jan 1 12:43:23 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 10:43:23 -0800 Subject: Network question Message-ID: <16369844010cd256cdd3bd313ffdf446@valleyimplants.com> Fred Csin wrote >> Keep it in historical context... Bongos were a significant speed >> increase over smoke signals. > > ?? > ~1100 feet per second v 186,000 miles per second > > But bongos could operate without line of sight, > and with or without ambient light. > Well, smoke signals may have lower latency, but bongos would have higher possible switching speeds and so better bandwidth. Things don't change much, do they? Scott From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 1 12:47:45 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 10:47:45 -0800 Subject: early DSP In-Reply-To: <4597C28E.25598.506F302@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 31 Dec 2006 at 13:49, woodelf wrote: > > > That means I have to buy a toaster-oven to do my PCB's. :) > > Also I want to go to MARS ... a bigger computer is needed - umm 20 >bits??? > >That reminds me; the other day I ran across the datasheet for the NEC >uPD7720 DSP (was it the first IC DSP?). 2 instructions--23 bit >instruction word length. Data memory was 16 bits. Very strange >bird... > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi Chuck OK, I'll bite. What were the two instructions? Most DSP's are built around a MAC. I would guess the large word length might be to include immediate coefficients. I know some early ones like the Intel 2920 ( not to be confused with AMD's 2900 series parts ) ran as a continuous loop. I'd guess the 7720 was similar in that it would just loop. Most of these type were to create inline filters to shape the band pass going to and from codec's. Even though the Intel 2920 was just a simple loop, it was able to be used for something like a spectrum analyzer with just the coding. Not too bad for something that doesn't even have conditional jump instructions. These types of DSP's were obsoleted when Motorola and TI came out with DPS's that were more like traditional uP's of the time. The connected a uP with a MAC. The Motorola was more easily programmed by someone familar with regular uP's while the TI's had all kinds of restrictions on how different parts of the memory could be used. I have a I2920 developement SDK and a few 2920's. Someday, I'd drag it out and play some with it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jan 1 13:01:00 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:01:00 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 Message-ID: <01C72DAD.45E3D620@MSE_D03> ---------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 01:03:53 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Subject: Re: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 > The standard Windows telnet client doesn't do that by default, so you > will type but not see your characters. That's a project for a > different day. What, fixing Windows telnet to actually conform to the spec? Yes, that's quite a project. :-) ---------------Reply: Gimme a break; this "project" merely involves getting the free HypertermPE upgrade from Hilgraeve. Fixes the local echo bug and works just fine. mike From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 1 13:02:34 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 14:02:34 -0500 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <16369844010cd256cdd3bd313ffdf446@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200701011902.l01J2ntO059017@keith.ezwind.net> On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 10:43:23 -0800, Scott Quinn wrote: >Fred Csin wrote >>> Keep it in historical context... Bongos were a significant speed >>> increase over smoke signals. >> >> ?? >> ~1100 feet per second v 186,000 miles per second >> >> But bongos could operate without line of sight, >> and with or without ambient light. >> >Well, smoke signals may have lower latency, but bongos would have >higher possible switching speeds and so better bandwidth. Things don't >change much, do they? >Scott Smoke signals have much better point to point side channel noise rejection. Bongos have a poor signal to noise ratio. Just my two copper, in the well ... Bob From rcini at optonline.net Mon Jan 1 13:02:44 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 14:02:44 -0500 Subject: Closet-cleaning Message-ID: <000901c72dd7$6b71ff00$04000100@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: The SB6120 and the TI74 have been spoken for as of now. Thanks for your interest. Dan Veeneman.do you have another email address? I got an error from your receiving mail server rejecting my reply. I'll also try sending from another account. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jan 1 13:03:46 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 11:03:46 -0800 Subject: Network question Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: >I'm beginning to wonder if it's time I upgraded my home network. The >NICs on most of the machines are 100BaseT, with the odd old machine >sporting a 10BaseT. But it's the hubs I wonder about--two old >National Semi 6-port Datamover 10BaseT units coupled together with a >10Base2 (coax) link. It's that coax that I dread replacing--it goes >between floors and snaking it through the walls was a real chore. >My DSL speed is 1.6Mbps, so I'm thinking that there's little reason >to upgrade the setup. Am I thinking correctly or am I likely to see >an improvement in internet access speed if I upgrade? My home network is rather different. My "data center" is out in the shop. The network out in the shop is centered on a 1GB/Sec. Ethernet switch, with all of the infrastructure servers hooked up to it. There's also an earlier 10/100 switch, which supports a couple of older machines that don't really need GigE (dedicated SETI at Home machines). My DSL connection is 1.5Mb/Sec., and I use a nice router/firewall with a separate seconday firewall creating a DMZ between the main home network and the Internet. The secondary firewall connects into the GigE fabric. There's an 802.11G (108Mb/Sec. link speed) wireless access point in the shop for wireless use when I'm out there. The shop is also completely wired with Cat6 cable to many drops. I have two GigE Cat6 lines, one active, one as a spare) that run in conduit underground between the shop and the house. In the house, there's a GigE switch, a 10/100 switch for older machines, an 802.11G wireless access point. The wireless stuff all uses WPA for improved security, although out there where I live, the chances of "snoops" is pretty small. The wireless access point are long-range devices...I can actually connect to the WAP in the house from anywhere within about 100 yards of the house. The house is all wired with Cat6 cable also, with lots of drops. All of these upgrades (previously, everything was 10/100), have made a dramatic improvement with regard to 'response' of end-user machines. The GigE interconnect between the servers and the end-user machines. As far as Internet connectivity goes...in networks, as in racecars, the weakest part is the limiting factor. The T1-equivalent DSL connection is SO much slower than any of the rest of the network, that upgrading everything to GigE made absolutely no detectable difference in terms of speed of access to the Internet. So, if your main concern is Internet connectivity, leave your network as-is. Spending the money to upgrade really won't make any substantial difference there. If you have any time of server-based infrastructure (file server, media server, Email server, etc.) then upgrading the "core" network can make a big difference in terms of response to core network services. If you want your Internet to be faster, spend the money to try to get a faster connection (if possible). With DSL, the limiting factor on speed is the distance from your home to the closest DSLAM, and the equipment used by your ISP. Rick Bensene From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 1 13:16:10 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:16:10 -0800 Subject: National MA2000 parts. In-Reply-To: <16369844010cd256cdd3bd313ffdf446@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: Hi I was just digging though my stuff ( actually, doing some early spring cleaning ). I came across some of these components. I was wondering if anyone else had heard of them before. These are modules that stack to form systems. They are based on the CMOS version of the NSC800 processor. This was pin compatable with the 8085 but used the Z80 instructions ( or so I've been told ). Here is waht I have: MA2000 base unit ( damaged by a leaky NiCad but looks repairable ) MA2800 Processor unit ( some I/O, ROM with monitor and some RAM ) MA2232 RS232 interface MA2301 Forth in ROM MA2016 16K CMOS RAM's( used the bad NiCad to hold data ) I'f got 3 of these. MA2017L 16K RAM with its own battery ( hope it isn't a NiCad ). MA2732 Holds two 2716 or 2732 EPROMs MA2802 Another with Real Time Clock. Manual with data sheets for these and others. Also a lot on how to use these, monitor listing and NSC800 instruction set are included. I'm not thinking of getting rid of these but would like to know if anyone else has played with these. A web search doesn't show a hold lot. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Type your favorite song.? Get a customized station.? Try MSN Radio powered by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 1 13:28:09 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 11:28:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <200701011902.l01J2ntO059017@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200701011902.l01J2ntO059017@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20070101111543.N40477@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Bob Bradlee wrote: > Smoke signals have much better point to point side channel noise rejection. > Bongos have a poor signal to noise ratio. Bongos are not well suited for full duplex, even with asymmetric FSK. Bongos can control data rate (and legitimately use "BAUD"!); smoke signals rely on ambient conditions for their data rate. Smoke signals permit virtually unlimited simultaneous transmissions, until the media is saturated (like LA) With special hardware (specially equipped plane), smoke signals can be plain text, with a limited selection of fonts. As near as I can tell, Smoke Signal Broadcating company (like Vector Graphics) never produced the products implicit in the company name. > Just my two copper, in the well ... best to stick with silver in wells -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 13:35:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:35:33 -0800 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2007 at 11:03, Rick Bensene wrote: > If you want your Internet to be faster, spend the money to try to get a > faster connection (if possible). With DSL, the limiting factor on speed > is the distance from your home to the closest DSLAM, and the equipment > used by your ISP. It's the fastest it comes right now--I'm over 10 wire-miles from the CO, but Qwest bought some land from me and installed a terminus of some sort about 400 ft. from the house (a 20'x20' concrete pad with lots of big boxes--and a Qwest service truck tha seems to be parked daily--on it). They tell me that Real Soon Now, they'll have 5Mb/sec service available. "Real Soon Now" in my experience with Qwest seems to be about 3-4 years. Still wondering where that 42Mb/sec service is that the telcos promised the FCC they'd have deployed in 2006. Qwest seems to be more interested in selling me Dish TV and mobile services than providing good net access. The maddening thing is that there's a local wireless net provider here with excellent pricing. I can see their transmitter tower two hills over from my window, but they nothing pointing in my direction nor do they plan to. And cable doesn't exist out here in the boonies. BTW, manually altering the setting on the 100BaseT NICs does appear to make a significant difference in performance, although Win2K does appear to be doing the cybernetic equivalent of passing a kidney stone when settings are being changed. As far as file movement between systems goes, 1MB is a big transfer for me--I mostly move source code, executables and small data files around. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 1 15:22:39 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:22:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <4598A897.4040803@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <200701010609.BAA14542@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4598A897.4040803@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200701012124.QAA17566@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I saw your session in real-time on the tcpdump. I suspect it didn't > disconnect cleanly, so I'll be going back through the logs to find > out what happened. (My side timed out sending a packet to your > side.) I initiated at least three, and I think four, sessions (from two different addresses). One I deliberately disconnected by escaping and telling telnet to quit; the rest, I think I disconnected with "quit". I don't see why any of them would time out, unless you don't handle RST segments correctly. I'll be happy to work with you to debug this, if you want. der Mouse From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 1 15:28:17 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 15:28:17 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45997CF1.3050203@oldskool.org> Rick Bensene wrote: > (dedicated SETI at Home machines) [soapbox] Might I interest you in something a little more fulfilling? The folding at home project publishes its results and is actively working to cure diseases caused by protein misfolding such as alzheimer's, parkinson's, etc. [/soapbox] I became quite disillusioned with SETI when they dumped core a few years ago and lost hundreds of millions of computer-hours' worth of work. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 1 16:13:08 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 14:13:08 -0800 Subject: TTL 7400's Available References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45984110.5020708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45998774.E7AA453F@cs.ubc.ca> woodelf wrote: > > A 18 bit CPU with a 1.5 us cycle time seems possible but I need some > OC buffers. All I can say is the Flip/Flops are a bitch to design. > Registers are MAR/MDR/PC/AC -- If the difficulty with flip-flops is coming up with an edge-triggerred design, or regardless, you might be interested in a scheme used in (many) Japanese SSI calculators from the late 60s: - All flips flops are a master-slave form, but each section (M & S) is a basic, dead-simple, gated flip-flop. - The clock presents two phases to the system, the phases being *non-overlapping* pulses. - All slave sections are gated *directly* by one phase of the clock (call it the update phase). - Master sections are gated by the other phase (call it the capture phase), but not (necessarily) directly: typically, intervening logic controls whether a given master section is gated or not, as per the desired function of the flip-flop. Because the slave section outputs are all modified simultaneously, but asynchronous to the master sections, the master section inputs are guaranteed to be stable when the master sections are gated (as long as the longest logic propagation path is accounted for). Advantages: - simple flip-flop design, no need for edge-triggerring. - no concern about setup or hold times. - fully synchronous at the system level, no worrying about propagation glitches, etc. Disadvantages: - every 'system flip-flop' or 'bit of state' is actually two (gated) flip-flops. (Another cheap trick in the SSI IC era was to front a basic 2-gate flip-flop with discrete capacitors and resistors to get edge triggerring.) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 16:16:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 14:16:28 -0800 Subject: early DSP In-Reply-To: References: <4597C28E.25598.506F302@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <459917BC.16015.B33505@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2007 at 10:47, dwight elvey wrote: > OK, I'll bite. What were the two instructions? Most DSP's > are built around a MAC. I would guess the large word length > might be to include immediate coefficients. Well, the 7720 has 3 or 4 instructions according to the manual (I don't know who wrote it, but it's very confusing) which seems not to be able to make up its mind. Storage is a 23-bit instruction ROM, a 16-bit data ROM and a 16-bit data RAM. Architecture is basically 1-address, with two selectable accumulators. Instruction I/II, OP and RT: Same format, but the RT also performs a subroutine return at the conclusion. Fields designate ALU function, source, destination, and address register modification. Instruction is single-cycle. Instruction III, JP: Jump; does conditional, unconditional jumps and subroutine call. Instruction IV, LD: Immediate load of value to selected destination. Now, I'd say that saying that there are only 3 instructions is sort of cheating, but then, I didn't write the manual. NEC doesn't call this chip a DSP; but an SPI (signal processing interface). But it has the DSP earmark of compute-and-accumulate capability with a 16x16 single-cycle multiplier. Literature seems to date the chip sometime in 1983. Unfortunately, I don't have one of the chips. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 1 16:17:57 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:17:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: flash card adapter board Message-ID: <20070101221757.4293.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> "The flash card adapter board contains the basic circuitry needed to add an SD/MMC, miniSD, and microSD/TransFlash socket to virtually any microcontroller application using as few as four I/O pins." introductory price - $39 US http://www.ecs87.com/adaptor.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 1 16:43:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 15:43:35 -0700 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <45998774.E7AA453F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45984110.5020708@jetnet.ab.ca> <45998774.E7AA453F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45998E97.4090400@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Because the slave section outputs are all modified simultaneously, > but asynchronous to the master sections, the master section inputs are > guaranteed to be stable when the master sections are gated (as long as the > longest logic propagation path is accounted for). > > Advantages: > - simple flip-flop design, no need for edge-triggerring. > - no concern about setup or hold times. > - fully synchronous at the system level, no worrying about > propagation glitches, etc. > > Disadvantages: > - every 'system flip-flop' or 'bit of state' is actually two (gated) flip-flops. That is what I plan to use -- the problem is generating the two phase clock. Q: How to do that. > (Another cheap trick in the SSI IC era was to front a basic 2-gate flip-flop > with discrete capacitors and resistors to get edge triggerring.) A: See above. > . From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Jan 1 19:06:57 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 20:06:57 -0500 Subject: Closet-cleaning In-Reply-To: <000901c72dd7$6b71ff00$04000100@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <000901c72dd7$6b71ff00$04000100@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200701020107.l0216whH031651@mail.itm-inst.com> At 02:02 PM 1/1/2007, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Dan Veeneman.do you have another email address? I got an > error >from your receiving mail server rejecting my reply. I'll also try sending >from another account. Piggybacking on Richard's message: Dan, my replies to you appear to be dropping into a black hole - no reply to multiple e-mails from here and from gmail. I'm not getting bounces, though. -Rick From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 1 19:18:29 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 20:18:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <459925C9.2050605@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <20070101083702.GD17269@linus.groomlake.area51> <459919F8.6090803@brutman.com> <459925C9.2050605@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200701020135.UAA19014@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Found it! Testing is open again - hammer away at will! Cool! I left you with a deliberately half-open socket, for your testing pleasure. (I tried to leave you with another one, but it went away - and the rest of the connections didn't, so I don't think it was you resetting things.) It's the one from 216.46.1.51:64971. (I created it by connecting and then hard-resetting the machine.) > Telnet users: > My understanding of telnet is that it is a protocol, not just raw > characters. You are correct. See RFC 854. :-) > So when you hit Ctrl-C under a typical Telnet client in Unix, you are > sending the equivalent of a 'process' interrupt. Most likely an Interrupt Process (0xff 0xf4) sequence, quite possibly an Abort Output (0xff 0xf5) and/or a Synch (0xff 0xf2 with the TCP urgent pointer pointing just after the 0xf2) as well. > I see lots of funny characters on my side, but they'll get consumed > and life goes on. I suspect that telnet is not so tolerant though, > and is expecting a proper response back from the telnet server. I'm inclined to doubt it. There is no defined response that a telnet client can reasonbly expect to IP, AO, or Synch. I'll snoop traffic and try a ^C to see what's really going on - at the wire level, at least. > Anybody notice the BIOS date and machine ID? That's generated at > runtime, not a static string. :-) I noticed it, but had no way to tell whether it were static or not. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 1 19:42:58 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 20:42:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <200701020135.UAA19014@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <20070101083702.GD17269@linus.groomlake.area51> <459919F8.6090803@brutman.com> <459925C9.2050605@brutman.com> <200701020135.UAA19014@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200701020152.UAA19166@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> So when you hit Ctrl-C under a typical Telnet client in Unix, you >> are sending the equivalent of a 'process' interrupt. > Most likely an Interrupt Process (0xff 0xf4) sequence, quite possibly > an Abort Output (0xff 0xf5) and/or a Synch (0xff 0xf2 with the TCP > urgent pointer pointing just after the 0xf2) as well. >> [...] > I'll snoop traffic and try a ^C to see what's really going on - at > the wire level, at least. I've now got something to report. This may well vary according to the telnet client. The test I did was with a moderately old NetBSD telnet client. When I typed ^C, I saw, on the wire (in hex), ff f4 ff fd 06. This is IAC IP IAC DO TIMING-MARK. But I never see IAC WILL TIMING-MARK or IAC WONT TIMING-MARK coming back, which is probably why the telnet client hangs - it's expecting one or the other. (And, in passing, it doesn't actually hang; I can type and what I type goes out. But it doesn't show me anything that comes back, even though data does come back, presumably waiting for a response to its IAC DO TIMING-MARK.) I did server-side code for a mud for which we wanted to support telnet connections. I had to make the server recognize enough protocol to refuse to negotiate any options on (IAC DO xxx produced IAC WONT xxx; IAC WILL xxx produced IAC DONT xxx). If you could do that much, and swallow most (all?) of the other IAC xxx commands, telnet will probably work better to connect to it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 20:44:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 18:44:34 -0800 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <45998E97.4090400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45998774.E7AA453F@cs.ubc.ca>, <45998E97.4090400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45995692.12702.1A8A7AB@cclist.sydex.com> This talk of making flip-flops brings to mind a topic not mentioned much at all any more--that of AC-coupled logic. Does anyone own any CPUs constructed using this logic type? I realize it was more common when thermionic devices (tubes/valves) were used, but I do recall seeing some transistor and tunnel diode circuits using AC coupling. Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Jan 1 21:31:09 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 21:31:09 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 - Done! In-Reply-To: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4599D1FD.8040400@brutman.com> This round of testing is over. Here are the highlights: - No heap corruption since I fixed the buffer overflow bug this morning. (Doh!) - I have a lot of a lot of open connections in ESTABLISHED state which I suspect are no longer valid, but because there is no data transfer there is no error. I already knew I'd have to implement a session timeout or keep-alives, and this confirms it. - I have one connection in FIN_WAIT_2. I suspect that will never close on it's own because the host has long since forgotten about it, so I'll need to implement a cleanup timer for those. (I read that Berkeley derived stacks do this, even though it is a violation of the spec.) - I suspect I need to work on my RST segment processing - I think I'm being too strict about what I consider to be an allowable RST. It's all in the RFCs, I just must not be grokking. I'm not going to be testing anything again anytime soon .. it's back to real work, and I have a lot to do before I can subject anybody to my code again. Besides the issues above I need to work on the following: - Besides tracking window sizes, actually honor them. (My code is ill behaved, and can send more than the window advertises.) - Telnet options negotiation - Some sort of 'select' call so that the app doesn't have to keep polling each socket directly. This is DOS so underneath the covers it will poll anyway, but having the app do it makes the code nearly unmanageable. - Go through the logs (both on the server machine and the tcpdump logs on the Linux firewall) and see what else I goofed up. Once again, thanks to those of you who helped me test. I've never undertaken something this large at home - this has been a year in the making. TCP/IP on an 8088 class machine isn't particularly new and exciting, but having my own implementation allows me to determine the balance of features and performance, and to fix the dang bugs that will pop up. :-) This code (without disk access) can transfer an receive on a socket at over 50KB/sec on a PCjr with a NEC V20. That ain't shabby .. :-) Mike From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 1 21:40:09 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 19:40:09 -0800 Subject: Low cost 1" paper tape In-Reply-To: <20070101221757.4293.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070101221757.4293.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4599D419.9050208@sbcglobal.net> This seller has 1" paper tape for a fair price, $3.00 for 7 rolls. See item number 8288222035 He has 75 boxes available. Bob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 1 21:42:50 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 20:42:50 -0700 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <45995692.12702.1A8A7AB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45998774.E7AA453F@cs.ubc.ca>, <45998E97.4090400@jetnet.ab.ca> <45995692.12702.1A8A7AB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4599D4BA.7040504@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > This talk of making flip-flops brings to mind a topic not mentioned > much at all any more--that of AC-coupled logic. Does anyone own any > CPUs constructed using this logic type? I realize it was more common > when thermionic devices (tubes/valves) were used, but I do recall > seeing some transistor and tunnel diode circuits using AC coupling. I am guessing the orginal DEC logic flip/chips used AC logic. > Cheers, > Chuck > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 1 21:55:12 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 21:55:12 -0600 Subject: Low cost 1" paper tape References: <20070101221757.4293.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <4599D419.9050208@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <00a401c72e21$ce0e9890$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The tape doesn't appear to be the oiled variety. That rules out use in an ASR33 does it not? Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Rosenbloom" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 9:40 PM Subject: Low cost 1" paper tape > This seller has 1" paper tape for a fair price, $3.00 for 7 rolls. See > item number 8288222035 > He has 75 boxes available. > > Bob > From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Jan 1 22:24:02 2007 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 20:24:02 -0800 Subject: Altair 680 CSAVE Problems!@ : ( References: <200701011800.l01I0P6h069008@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <008601c72e25$dc318910$6601a8c0@downstairs2> Here is my copy of Altair 680 BASIC. I never owned an Altair, I bought this for my SWTPC 6800. The BASIC and manuals are here. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Altair/Altair_Basic.htm Michael Holley > Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 00:12:12 -0900 > From: Grant Stockly > Subject: Altair 680 CSAVE Problems!@ : ( > To: altaircomputerclub at yahoogroups.com, cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231234847.03956f20 at pop.1and1.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > I'm having a ton of trouble saving a program on a cassette tape using > Altair 680 basic. Was there a KCACR basic made without the CSAVE > command? My basic appears to have a CSAVE command, but it won't accept > the > name!!!!! : ( > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 1 22:50:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 23:50:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 - Done! In-Reply-To: <4599D1FD.8040400@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <4599D1FD.8040400@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200701020452.XAA21461@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > TCP/IP on an 8088 class machine isn't particularly new and exciting, Oh, I don't know; *I* think this is Pretty D*mn Cool! Well, okay, TCP on an 8088 may not be exciting. TCP using your own code on an 8088, that rocks! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 22:55:21 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 23:55:21 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <07f583d10ab430dcf7dff1e4e977e19f@valleyimplants.com> References: <07f583d10ab430dcf7dff1e4e977e19f@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <4599E5B9.7090708@gmail.com> Scott Quinn wrote: >> And with so much radiation being shot onto metals and like, does it >> became radioactive? >> >> I have some MSX here that I want to "give it a shot" (pun intended) >> hehehe >> > > Remeber- two types of radiation: particle (Alpha, Beta, neutrons, > protons) and electromagnetic (gamma, X-ray, radio, light, etc). The > particles can make things radioactive, the electromagnetic radiation > cannot. Theoretically, wouldn't it be possible to bombard a proton with an electron with enough force to cause them to merge into a neutron, and in doing, render the material radioactive? In that case, would it be possible to generate said electrons with the photoelectric effect? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 22:56:03 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 23:56:03 -0500 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <45982A14.5070302@shiresoft.com> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> <45980BA0.80605@brutman.com> <45982A14.5070302@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4599E5E3.6020701@gmail.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> You obviously don't have any really old systems on your network. I'm >> still at 1.5Mbps, and have systems on my network that can't keep up >> with that. > I can attest to that! My 11/70 which is running 10Mbps ethernet can > only ftp at ~25KB/s (and that's to a machine that's on the same switch!). That might be because of limited disk bandwidth. The machine itself is capable of talking faster than that. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 23:01:28 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 00:01:28 -0500 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4599E728.6040102@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > BTW, manually altering the setting on the 100BaseT NICs does appear > to make a significant difference in performance, although Win2K does > appear to be doing the cybernetic equivalent of passing a kidney > stone when settings are being changed. I have this laptop here with an Intel gigabit chipset onboard. When I look at the speed/duplex configuration section of the driver configuration under Windows XP, the choices I am presented with are full auto, 10Mbps half, 10Mbps full, 100Mbps half, 100Mbps full and 1000Mbps auto. How come there's no 1000Mbps half/full settings? The performance problems I'm having are when I'm connecting to a gigabit network. Will setting to 1000Mbps auto help? Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 1 23:05:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 22:05:09 -0700 Subject: "Thinking Machines: The Creation of the Computer" Message-ID: I just watched this from a bittorrent; it had some nice vintage info and footage in it, so check it out! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jan 1 23:08:46 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 23:08:46 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <4599E728.6040102@gmail.com> References: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> <4599E728.6040102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4599E8DE.1040504@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How come there's no 1000Mbps half/full settings? The performance > problems I'm having are when I'm connecting to a gigabit network. Will > setting to 1000Mbps auto help? The biggest blessing of gigabit ethernet isn't 1000bps, it's a decent auto-negotiation standard. auto/auto is a hell of a lot more reliable between gigabit devices than 10/100 or 10Mbit, so your situation is a little odd. It sounds like XP has your adapter forced to something Not Right. I'd check the MTU first, make sure you're not on a jumbo-packet network or pushing jumbos on a 1500MTU net, then I'd try 1000Mbps/auto and see. Not like you're going to cook anything. :) Doc From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 1 23:13:12 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 21:13:12 -0800 Subject: TTL 7400's Available References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45998774.E7AA453F@cs.ubc.ca>, <45998E97.4090400@jetnet.ab.ca> <45995692.12702.1A8A7AB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4599E9E4.9E91E4E1@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > This talk of making flip-flops brings to mind a topic not mentioned > much at all any more--that of AC-coupled logic. Does anyone own any > CPUs constructed using this logic type? I realize it was more common > when thermionic devices (tubes/valves) were used, but I do recall > seeing some transistor and tunnel diode circuits using AC coupling. Are you referring to AC-coupled/triggerred flip-flops (where the clock trigger is applied thru 2 capacitors to the input of each side of the FF) or to logic where all signals (gate inputs, etc.) are AC-coupled? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 23:12:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 21:12:47 -0800 Subject: My first Mac Message-ID: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> Yeah, no kidding--someone game me a Mac 6100/60. Not very exciting, but I've upgraded the memory to 40 MB and added a 4GB hard disk from parts in my hellbox. So, does anyone have any first-hand experience with Linux on one of these critters? Is it worth the installation trouble? Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 1 23:16:54 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 21:16:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 1, 7 09:12:47 pm" Message-ID: <200701020516.l025Gsdt024526@floodgap.com> > Yeah, no kidding--someone game me a Mac 6100/60. Not very exciting, > but I've upgraded the memory to 40 MB and added a 4GB hard disk from > parts in my hellbox. I am so proud of you. You have made the first, best step. ;) > So, does anyone have any first-hand experience with Linux on one of > these critters? Is it worth the installation trouble? I've only messed with mkLinux on NuBus Power Macs and IMHO it was not worth it. However, there are certainly other alternatives for NuBus kernels, including a port of Linux/PPC (look at http://nubus-pmac.sourceforge.net/ ). What were you considering? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: The E-mail Signature Who Loved Me ------------------------------ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 23:20:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 21:20:09 -0800 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <4599E9E4.9E91E4E1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4599E9E4.9E91E4E1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45997B09.1908.23716B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2007 at 21:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Are you referring to AC-coupled/triggerred flip-flops (where the clock trigger > is applied thru 2 capacitors to the input of each side of the FF) or to logic > where all signals (gate inputs, etc.) are AC-coupled? The latter, complete with capacitor and/or transformer coupling. ...and wasn't there a type of logic using microwave technology and various stripline shapes? I think I remember reading about that kind of thing in the 60's. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 1 23:22:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 21:22:56 -0800 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <200701020516.l025Gsdt024526@floodgap.com> References: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 1, 7 09:12:47 pm", <200701020516.l025Gsdt024526@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45997BB0.25555.239A394@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2007 at 21:16, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ). What were you considering? Nothing in particular--just fooling with the box a bit and shelving it until a special need arises. The OS 8 interface isn't particularly exciting, particularly with MS Word and IE 4 for Mac. I miss a good command-line interface and development tools. Hence, the query about Linux. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 1 23:42:38 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 21:42:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <45997BB0.25555.239A394@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 1, 7 09:22:56 pm" Message-ID: <200701020542.l025gc8o020276@floodgap.com> > > What were you considering? > > Nothing in particular--just fooling with the box a bit and shelving > it until a special need arises. Well, let me put it this way -- my 7100 (the one I attempted mkLinux on) is now banished to OS 9 and acting as an AppleTalk server for the old Macs that have trouble speaking to the Panther file server. NetBSD is very nice on the 68ks and the PCI PPCs, and Linux runs better on the PCI PPCs also, like a 7200 or 73-75-7600. A 6100 is not a bad unit, but they aren't my favourite Mac if you intend to run something other than Mac OS. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Whatever it is, I'm against it. -- Groucho Marx ---------------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 2 00:33:55 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 23:33:55 -0700 Subject: "Thinking Machines: The Creation of the Computer" In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 01 Jan 2007 22:05:09 -0700. Message-ID: If you want the torrent: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 2 01:01:15 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 02:01:15 -0500 Subject: My first Mac References: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> <200701020516.l025Gsdt024526@floodgap.com> <45997BB0.25555.239A394@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00d101c72e3b$cba42970$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 12:22 AM Subject: Re: My first Mac > On 1 Jan 2007 at 21:16, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > ). What were you considering? > > Nothing in particular--just fooling with the box a bit and shelving > it until a special need arises. The OS 8 interface isn't > particularly exciting, particularly with MS Word and IE 4 for Mac. I > miss a good command-line interface and development tools. Hence, the > query about Linux. > > Cheers, > Chuck Linux is not a very good option for pre PCI PPC Macs, which the 6100 would fall under. OS 8.1 is a decent (but not exciting) OS, but the whole point should be to experience the apps on the Mac and no stare at the OS all day. If I want a CLI interface I would power up my AWS 95 with A/UX 3.1. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 2 01:06:30 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 02:06:30 -0500 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200701020206.30462.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 02 January 2007 00:12, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yeah, no kidding--someone game me a Mac 6100/60. Not very exciting, > but I've upgraded the memory to 40 MB and added a 4GB hard disk from > parts in my hellbox. > > So, does anyone have any first-hand experience with Linux on one of > these critters? Is it worth the installation trouble? I ran a 6100/60 with a NuBus ethernet card in the PDS slot (with the appropriate PDS->nubus adapter) using Debian with some old mklinux kernel, as a NATing firewall with good success, a few years ago. Support for newer kernels is pretty much non-existant (I'm not sure if they support past 2.2; I know they don't go past 2.4 kernels), so you'd have to go with an appropriately vintage Linux distribution. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 01:10:29 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 01:10:29 -0600 Subject: Floating Point Systems FP-03 Message-ID: <624966d60701012310h3d9ba0cbxd0966a7e9c2a145a@mail.gmail.com> > > I have one of these and I'm looking information on it. I might be willing > to trade or sell it. If you have any info or interest, please contact me off > list. Thanks, Paul From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 2 01:18:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 23:18:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: My first Mac Message-ID: <20070102071847.54448.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Yellow Dog is the most polished distro FWIU. There are older versions of Mandrake too. Would you get gcc though I aks myself. Funny...Im not getting an answer --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On Tuesday 02 January 2007 00:12, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Yeah, no kidding--someone game me a Mac 6100/60. Not very exciting, > > but I've upgraded the memory to 40 MB and added a 4GB hard disk from > > parts in my hellbox. > > > > So, does anyone have any first-hand experience with Linux on one of > > these critters? Is it worth the installation trouble? > > I ran a 6100/60 with a NuBus ethernet card in the PDS slot (with the > appropriate PDS->nubus adapter) using Debian with some old mklinux > kernel, as a NATing firewall with good success, a few years ago. > Support for newer kernels is pretty much non-existant (I'm not sure if > they support past 2.2; I know they don't go past 2.4 kernels), so you'd > have to go with an appropriately vintage Linux distribution. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jan 2 01:25:46 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 23:25:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Low cost 1" paper tape In-Reply-To: <00a401c72e21$ce0e9890$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20070102072546.48514.qmail@web83005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > The tape doesn't appear to be the oiled variety. > That rules out use in an > ASR33 does it not? Yes, but it's good for high-speed punches like GNT, Facit, DEC PC04/05, etc. --Bill From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 2 02:23:47 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 00:23:47 -0800 Subject: TTL 7400's Available References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4599E9E4.9E91E4E1@cs.ubc.ca> <45997B09.1908.23716B0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 1 Jan 2007 at 21:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Are you referring to AC-coupled/triggerred flip-flops (where the clock trigger > > is applied thru 2 capacitors to the input of each side of the FF) or to logic > > where all signals (gate inputs, etc.) are AC-coupled? > > The latter, complete with capacitor and/or transformer coupling. It's before my time, so I'm no expert, but I'm unaware of any 'full' systems made using such techniques. What I've run across about such stuff seemed to talk about it in-principle but with little or limited/specialised practical appplication. Core-logic, which was inherently AC-coupled, didn't go very far. The parametron circuit was AC-coupled wasn't it? .. read a little bit about it some years ago, but not in much depth. > ...and wasn't there a type of logic using microwave technology and > various stripline shapes? I think I remember reading about that kind > of thing in the 60's. ..haven't heard of that one before. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 2 02:33:04 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 02:33:04 -0600 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <459A18C0.8040600@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yeah, no kidding--someone game me a Mac 6100/60. Not very exciting, > but I've upgraded the memory to 40 MB and added a 4GB hard disk from > parts in my hellbox. > > So, does anyone have any first-hand experience with Linux on one of > these critters? Is it worth the installation trouble? I vote with Mr. Kaiser - MacOS is going to be the most useful and least painful option on a 6100. If you want Linux or BSD, the 6100/60 is a *really* bad fit. There will be P-II and P-III PeeCees lining the curbs for the next 2 weeks. They'll be faster and less hell. Besides, if you run MacOS, there's an astounding array of goodies to stick in that expansion slot, including a G3 upgrade. There's one at the Goodwill here (untested) for about $25, IIRC. Remember the V8 Vegas? :^) If you're interested in a Unix-able Macintosh, a Blue & White G3 is a really nice box. They can be had for $30-50 if you lurk a bit, and they're *fast*. Doc From grant at stockly.com Tue Jan 2 03:02:53 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 00:02:53 -0900 Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070101234426.044d1ae8@pop.1and1.com> I'm pretty confused right now. I wrote a small basic program to dump my cassettes into the computer. 1 IF (1 AND PEEK(61456)) = 0 THEN POKE 61441, PEEK(61457) 2 GOTO 1 61441 - ACIA DATA PORT 61456 - KCACR STATUS PORT 61457 - KCACR DATA PORT I'm not checking if the ACIA is ready for data, because when reading at 300bps and transmitting at 9600 we should never have to. Why am I getting strange results below? The only thing I can think of is that it is somehow missing every other byte from the KCACR. Does anyone see anything wrong with the basic program? All 500 lines returned are the exact same length and they all start with 13. 1300D603EAFE3A00880C8 13000000000000000000C ... 1310452E25D34F0FEE5CC 1310C71943CF143316541 Missing every other byte? Maybe the 680 and it's basic isn't fast enough for my program? I'm just guessing that S1 and 13 are supposed to be there... S113_0_0_D_6_0_3_E_A_F_E_3_A_0_0_8_8_0_C_8 On top of all this, I'm having a hard time understanding the format. This is a good line: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 S1 13 0000 0D 76 00 F3 7E 18 F9 7E 03 3C 00 00 48 38 00 2C 7E S1 means its a data record, 13 is the byte count, 0000 is the address, and 7E is the checksum. So what are the mystery bytes? How do you get 13 data bytes and still have a place for all of the rest? 13 is supposed to include the checksum! The checksum is the one's compliment of the sum of the all bytes except S1 and the checksum itself. FF-(13+0D+76+F3+7E+18+F9+7E+03+3C+48+38+2C)=7E So 7E is the checksum. I want to know where all those bytes go! :( Grant From grant at stockly.com Tue Jan 2 03:10:06 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 00:10:06 -0900 Subject: Addition to cassette post earlier and 6800 assembler questions Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102000500.0159b558@pop.1and1.com> I just modified my program to get rid of the polling. It did not really speed up the display of characters. ; ) I can now see the full records with some duplicated digits here and there. Its interesting that the program below free running can only process characters at 300bps 1 POKE 61441, PEEK(61457) 2 GOTO 1 At a 500Khz clock thats over 1000 clock cycles per loop. SO THIS IS HOW Micro-Soft got started with slow software??? ; ) So any suggestions on getting started QUICKLY with 6800 assembler? Maybe one that outputs in Motorola punch tape format??? I want to archive Altair 680 KCACR basic before anything else happens to this tape. I had about 5-6 failed loads this weekend and I don't want to risk loosing this KCACR basic! : ( Grant From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 04:19:58 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 05:19:58 -0500 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <459A18C0.8040600@mdrconsult.com> References: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> <459A18C0.8040600@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 1/2/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > If you're interested in a Unix-able Macintosh, a Blue & White G3 is a > really nice box. They can be had for $30-50 if you lurk a bit, and > they're *fast*. If anyone knows where I can get just the case for one of those cheaper than the whole machine, I'd be interested. I have all the guts for one, but no box. Yes, I can make it work in an ATX case of most flavors, but the real case is so much more attractive than a beige box. FWIW, I did get OS X 10.3 working on it, so I know it'll do UNIX. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 2 05:10:41 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 03:10:41 -0800 Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070101234426.044d1ae8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <459A3DA7.A61A3EA4@cs.ubc.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > On top of all this, I'm having a hard time understanding the format. > > This is a good line: > > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 > S1 13 0000 0D 76 00 F3 7E 18 F9 7E 03 3C 00 00 48 38 00 2C 7E > > S1 means its a data record, > 13 is the byte count, > 0000 is the address, > and 7E is the checksum. > > So what are the mystery bytes? How do you get 13 data bytes and still have > a place for all of the rest? 13 is supposed to include the checksum! The > checksum is the one's compliment of the sum of the all bytes except S1 and > the checksum itself. > > FF-(13+0D+76+F3+7E+18+F9+7E+03+3C+48+38+2C)=7E > > So 7E is the checksum. I want to know where all those bytes go! :( Can't help you with the tape read problem although the speed issue as you suggest sounds like a good guess, but as for the byte count issue: it's 13 hex = 19 dec, which works out exactly for the line you show when you include the address bytes (everything after the 13). Lesson: you're up too late at night :) ...but then so am I (!) :/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 2 05:38:27 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:38:27 +0000 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <4599E8DE.1040504@mdrconsult.com> References: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> <4599E728.6040102@gmail.com> <4599E8DE.1040504@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <459A4433.2080304@dunnington.plus.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> How come there's no 1000Mbps half/full settings? Because there's no such thing as half duplex Gigabit Ethernet. The standard only permits 1000 full (but it does allow autonegotiation). > The performance >> problems I'm having are when I'm connecting to a gigabit network. >> Will setting to 1000Mbps auto help? > > The biggest blessing of gigabit ethernet isn't 1000bps, it's a decent > auto-negotiation standard. auto/auto is a hell of a lot more reliable > between gigabit devices than 10/100 or 10Mbit, so your situation is a > little odd. I'm not sure I completely agree. The standard was changed some time ago, and where once the default was 1000 full it is now 1000 auto. The end result of course is always 1000 Mb/s full duplex but one setting allows for (and should insist upon) negotiation and the other doesn't. That's a problem with some things -- we have sporadic problems with Suns, some of which seem to do it one way and some the other[1] -- because if you pick the wrong option you get no traffic at all (as happened recently when a telco replaced a piece of kit on one of our Gigabit WAN links). [1] I don't know if this is a hardware dependency or a Solaris version/patch issue, because we (the network group) have no control over the Suns, which are run by our Systems Group, and are, um, "a mixed bag". > It sounds like XP has your adapter forced to something Not Right. I agree, but it could also be a negotiation problem; we saw a lot of that about a year ago on our student network, with Intel-chipset Gigabit interfaces in certain new laptops connecting to 10/100 ports (other chipsets worked fine). Typically the laptops got a connection, but an extremely slow or erratic one. The workaround was to fix the adaptor speed/duplex, but IIRC a recent driver update eventually improved things. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 2 05:43:54 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 05:43:54 -0600 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: References: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> <459A18C0.8040600@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <459A457A.1090809@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 1/2/07, Doc Shipley wrote: >> If you're interested in a Unix-able Macintosh, a Blue & White G3 is a >> really nice box. They can be had for $30-50 if you lurk a bit, and >> they're *fast*. > > If anyone knows where I can get just the case for one of those cheaper > than the whole machine, I'd be interested. Local freecycle list? (assuming you're not at the pole right now :-) It wouldn't surprise me if there are people who have migrated hard disk / memory to later systems and don't know what to do with the leftovers... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 2 05:44:54 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 05:44:54 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <4599E8DE.1040504@mdrconsult.com> References: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> <4599E728.6040102@gmail.com> <4599E8DE.1040504@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <459A45B6.1020204@yahoo.co.uk> Doc Shipley wrote: > make sure you're not on a jumbo-packet network or > pushing jumbos on a 1500MTU net, then I'd try 1000Mbps/auto and see. > Not like you're going to cook anything. :) I don't know, that's a heck of a high data rate, and the sharp edges on all those 1's sure do generate some heat... :-) From ueoguy at yahoo.com Mon Jan 1 08:00:27 2007 From: ueoguy at yahoo.com (H.E.Robert) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 09:00:27 -0500 Subject: [Altair Computer Club] Altair 680 CSAVE Problems!@ : ( In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231234847.03956f20@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <002a01c72dad$31df2c10$6501a8c0@ueocore> Grant, Try putting the filename in double quotes, CSAVE "A", as A is an integer variable without quotes, and "with", is interpreted as an ASCII string?? Just Bob! _____ From: altaircomputerclub at yahoogroups.com [mailto:altaircomputerclub at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Grant Stockly Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 4:12 AM To: altaircomputerclub at yahoogroups.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: [Altair Computer Club] Altair 680 CSAVE Problems!@ : ( I'm having a ton of trouble saving a program on a cassette tape using Altair 680 basic. Was there a KCACR basic made without the CSAVE command? My basic appears to have a CSAVE command, but it won't accept the name!!!!! : ( I'm sending this to two groups. I've been at this problem for hours now... : ( I'll post a transcript below. Let me know what I'm doing wrong! : ( -------------------- .J FD00 (cassette bootstrap rom address) (basic loading) (basic loaded) .J 0000 (run basic...) MEMORY SIZE? TERMINAL WIDTH? 80 WANT SIN-COS-TAN-ATN? YES 9604 BYTES FREE MITS ALTAIR 680 BASIC VERSION 1.1 REV 3.2 --KCACR-- COPYRIGHT 1976 BY MITS INC. OK 10 PRINT "HELLO" 20 GOTO 10 CSAVE A ?TM ERROR OK -------------------- TM is a type mismatch error. SM is for a command it doesn't understand. Watch... -------------------- CSAVE A ?TM ERROR OK CSAVE ?SN ERROR OK AHHHH! ?SN ERROR OK AHHHH! A ?SN ERROR OK -------------------- Am I wrong assuming that because it gives me a TM error instead of SN that it is "trying" to work? I get the same things for CLOAD... How in the world are you supposed to save something to tape! : ( If I have the wrong version of basic, anyone have the right one? What will it take for me to get a copy! : ) (first smile in this e-mail... ; ) ) Thanks, Grant __._,_.___ SPONSORED LINKS Computer telephony Portable computer Computer memory Computer training Computer school Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___ From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Jan 1 11:39:11 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 17:39:11 +0000 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4599473F.4070704@gjcp.net> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Happy New Year! > > > I'm back at it again - I plan on doing better this time. (I've fixed > the specific double delete bug that bit me last time, improved tracing > quite a bit, and added a lot of consistency checking code.) Works for me > Just like last time, all you need to do is telnet to 24.159.203.149, > port 2301. Once again, that's my Linux box, but today it is forwarding > port 2301 to my PCjr. The commands are slightly enhanced from the last > test, but it isn't anything highly interactive. > > Up to 9 people can connect simultaneously. We didn't get more than 2 or > 3 simultaneous connections last time, so I'm probably overly optimistic. I can leave a telnet session connected indefinitely, if it won't time out... > Some of you noted from last time that there is no character echoing or > line editing. Telnet users on Unix machines will probably have local > line editing, which makes things a wee bit nicer. The standard Windows > telnet client doesn't do that by default, so you will type but not see > your characters. That's a project for a different day. > > Here is a picture of the machine you are connecting to, complete with > the Western Digital 8003 Ethernet card grafted onto the side: > > http://brutman.com/PCjr_WD_small.jpg > > > And lastly, if you remember, type in your OS and machine type as a > command. It will complain about it being an invalid command, but I'll > see it in the log and I'll have a better idea of what I'm testing against. Done Gordon From lee at geekdot.com Tue Jan 2 07:20:01 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:20:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records Message-ID: <2471.172.143.182.245.1167744001.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Maybe the 680 and it's basic isn't fast enough for my program? This is quite possible as interpreting decimal numbers takes a fair bit of processing. You may like to try this .. 1 A=61456:B=61441:C=61457:D=1:E=0 2 IF (D AND PEEK(A)) = E THEN POKE B, PEEK(C) 3 GOTO 2 .. which should speed things up a bit. Lee. From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Jan 2 08:16:53 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 09:16:53 -0500 Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070101234426.044d1ae8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200701021322.l02DMdnx025827@mail4.magma.ca> > On top of all this, I'm having a hard time understanding the format. > > This is a good line: > > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 > S1 13 0000 0D 76 00 F3 7E 18 F9 7E 03 3C 00 00 48 38 00 2C 7E > > S1 means its a data record, > 13 is the byte count, > 0000 is the address, > and 7E is the checksum. > > So what are the mystery bytes? How do you get 13 data bytes and still have > a place for all of the rest? 13 is supposed to include the checksum! The > checksum is the one's compliment of the sum of the all bytes except S1 and > the checksum itself. This is standard Motorola HEX format: (From my XASM manual): 4.1.1 Motorola hex format Data Record: 'Stnnaaaadddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd...cc' Where: S = 'S', indicates start of data record t = Record type, '1'=data, '9'=end of file. n = Count of number of bytes in record. (in ASCII/HEX) a = Load address of data record. (in ASCII/HEX) d = Actual data bytes in record. (in ASCII/HEX) c = Checksum of count, address, and data. (in ASCII/HEX) Note1: Checksum is computed as one's complement of eight bit sum of all values from 'nn' to end of data. Note2: Count 'nn' is three greater then the number of data bytes in the record. Note that the count value includes not only the checksum, but the address bytes as well. Your record contains 10h (16 decimal) bytes and does verify. If it's any use to you, I can send some tools to work with this type of data (change record size, load address, convert to binary, set fill values etc.). I can also give you assembler/disassemblers which will work with MHX directly. Regards, Dave PS: I'd like to get a copy of the data once you get it extracted. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From lee at geekdot.com Tue Jan 2 07:54:10 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:54:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records Message-ID: <2581.172.143.182.245.1167746050.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> After a bit of a ponder this should be about as fast as you can get without putting multiple statements on one line .. 1 GOTO 5 2 WAIT A,D,D 3 POKE B, PEEK(C) 4 GOTO 2 5 A=61456 6 B=61441 7 C=61457 8 D=1 9 GOTO 2 .. if multiple statements per line are allowed then this should be faster .. 1 A=61456:B=61441:C=61457:D=1 2 WAIT A,D,D:POKE B,PEEK(C):GOTO 2 Lee. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 2 08:31:50 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 08:31:50 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <459A45B6.1020204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> <4599E728.6040102@gmail.com> <4599E8DE.1040504@mdrconsult.com> <459A45B6.1020204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <459A6CD6.6000408@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: >> make sure you're not on a jumbo-packet network or pushing jumbos on a >> 1500MTU net, then I'd try 1000Mbps/auto and see. Not like you're >> going to cook anything. :) > > I don't know, that's a heck of a high data rate, and the sharp edges on > all those 1's sure do generate some heat... :-) Oh, I forgot. Teh IntarWeb Are TUBES! Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 2 08:43:55 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 08:43:55 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <459A4433.2080304@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> <4599E728.6040102@gmail.com> <4599E8DE.1040504@mdrconsult.com> <459A4433.2080304@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <459A6FAB.4010903@mdrconsult.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: >> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> How come there's no 1000Mbps half/full settings? > > Because there's no such thing as half duplex Gigabit Ethernet. The > standard only permits 1000 full (but it does allow autonegotiation). > >> The performance >>> problems I'm having are when I'm connecting to a gigabit network. >>> Will setting to 1000Mbps auto help? >> >> The biggest blessing of gigabit ethernet isn't 1000bps, it's a >> decent auto-negotiation standard. auto/auto is a hell of a lot more >> reliable between gigabit devices than 10/100 or 10Mbit, so your >> situation is a little odd. > > I'm not sure I completely agree. The standard was changed some time > ago, and where once the default was 1000 full it is now 1000 auto. The > end result of course is always 1000 Mb/s full duplex but one setting > allows for (and should insist upon) negotiation and the other doesn't. > That's a problem with some things -- we have sporadic problems with > Suns, some of which seem to do it one way and some the other[1] -- > because if you pick the wrong option you get no traffic at all (as > happened recently when a telco replaced a piece of kit on one of our > Gigabit WAN links). I certainly wouldn't claim that the standard's perfect, much less perfectly implemented.... I really just meant that with gigabit, as opposed to 10/100, it's more likely a software problem than hardware autonegotiation. > [1] I don't know if this is a hardware dependency or a Solaris > version/patch issue, because we (the network group) have no control over > the Suns, which are run by our Systems Group, and are, um, "a mixed bag". Given my experience with SPARCs in this I'd say it's hardware. I have an e250 whose onboard HME has to be forced with one of my switches, and won't make a link at all with another unless it's set auto/auto. > I agree, but it could also be a negotiation problem; we saw a lot of > that about a year ago on our student network, with Intel-chipset Gigabit > interfaces in certain new laptops connecting to 10/100 ports (other > chipsets worked fine). Typically the laptops got a connection, but an > extremely slow or erratic one. The workaround was to fix the adaptor > speed/duplex, but IIRC a recent driver update eventually improved things. Yup. I have a dual-Xeon board right here with 2 onboard 1000Mbps ports. It attaches to a cheap AOpen switch, and won't link on boot. I have to plug the cable into a 10/100 hub, let it negotiate, then plug it back into the gigE switch, where it will then DTRT. 'Splain *that* bizness, please.... Makes PXE booting a little problematic. ;) Doc From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 2 10:00:04 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 08:00:04 -0800 Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records In-Reply-To: <2581.172.143.182.245.1167746050.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: >From: "Lee Davison" > >After a bit of a ponder this should be about as fast as you can get >without putting multiple statements on one line .. > >1 GOTO 5 >2 WAIT A,D,D >3 POKE B, PEEK(C) >4 GOTO 2 >5 A=61456 >6 B=61441 >7 C=61457 >8 D=1 >9 GOTO 2 > >.. if multiple statements per line are allowed then this should be >faster .. > >1 A=61456:B=61441:C=61457:D=1 >2 WAIT A,D,D:POKE B,PEEK(C):GOTO 2 > >Lee. > > Hi As Lee shows, not having to interpret the numbers each time should speed things up. Reading decimal numbers requires division. That is just about the slowest thing the computer can do. If the values are stored in variables, they are already converted to a computer friendly format. Another thought is that your PC may not be keeping up with 9600. You might slow it to 1200 and see what happens. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 2 10:13:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 08:13:18 -0800 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <459A141E.28792.48D100E@cclist.sydex.com> Okay, I'll play with the thing and then stash it away rather than try to squeeze a copy of Linux onto it. This is a university town and, so G3's aren't hard to come by cheap if the urge should ever hit me again. I was mostly curious and was offered the thing free gratis. Besides, I'd probably have to BUY an AAUI-to-RJ45 ethernet adapter and that would defeat the whole "free is good" notion. :) Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 10:28:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 11:28:37 -0500 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <459A457A.1090809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4599794F.26707.2305950@cclist.sydex.com> <459A18C0.8040600@mdrconsult.com> <459A457A.1090809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 1/2/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 1/2/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> If you're interested in a Unix-able Macintosh, a Blue & White G3 is a > >> really nice box... > > > > If anyone knows where I can get just the case for one of those cheaper > > than the whole machine, I'd be interested. > > Local freecycle list? Excellent plan. Also, we have a "FreeGeek" organization ( http://freegeekcolumbus.org/ ) down the street from my house - I was planning on volunteering with them once I get settled in at home. They are mostly engaged in recycling Intel boxes for re-donation, so I'd imagine a trickle of Apple machines passing through with no obvious disposition. > (assuming you're not at the pole right now :-) Nope... made it back to Columbus a few days ago. The Southern Hemisphere was great, and my query to the list did result in meeting one of the list members and getting a tour of interesting stuff and storage facilities in the Sydney area ;-) > wouldn't surprise me if there are people who have migrated hard disk / memory > to later systems and don't know what to do with the leftovers... Indeed. Really, though, what I was kinda after was a box from a B&W G3 that had the PSU crap out or the hard drives die and left for dead. Turns out the motherboard I have is of the right rev to work with an ATX PSU with one pin removed (-5VDC on the ATX maps to, of all things, a ground pin on the G3 board, a situation caught by the crowbar circuit of a decent power supply - pop that pin and, voila, a working G3). -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 2 10:32:00 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 08:32:00 -0800 Subject: My first Mac Message-ID: <459A8900.4040606@bitsavers.org> > This is a university town and, > so G3's aren't hard to come by cheap if the urge should ever hit me > again. Beige G3's are OK, and still have SCSI and serial ports. I have a gaggle of G3 powerbooks that I use at CHM for various recovery projects. Blue and White machines switched to USB and dumped SCSI and serial, which make them less interesting. If you want that sort of machine, get 2nd generation or later Grey G4. Avoid the last couple of generations of G4's, they had cooling problems... Putting a 1+GHz CPU upgrade into the earlier G4s makes a pretty decent system. I'm using one as my main machine at CHM. > I'd probably have to BUY an AAUI-to-RJ45 ethernet adapter Probably not worth messing with. You aren't going to be happy with the performance of a first generation PowerMac. If you really want a shell in the OS 9 environment, there's MPW. I remember someone playing with getting a bare-metal OS going on PPC Macs at one point with a CLI. Don't know how far they got. This is sort of interesting if you wanted to do some low level turn the interrupts off kind of programming on the machine, since you can't actually turn interrupts off completely in the OS 9 environment. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 2 11:05:24 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 12:05:24 -0500 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> It's extremely cool. What's with you and the x-rays lately? Did >> you score an x-ray machine somewhere recently? (I ask out of >> jealousy...I'd love a small x-ray setup [and the knowledge to use it] >> for soldering BGA components). > > He said in an earlier message, that it was at his place of > employment. :) Oh, duh. I missed that somehow. :-/ > He's aparently not as crazy as I am to have some x-ray gear at home > (then again, I've never used it partly because I don't know enough > about > dosages to determine what's safe, and how much to use to expose film > properly, etc). What type of equipment do you have, if you don't mind my asking? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Jan 2 11:20:11 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 12:20:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Exatron Stringy Floppy's In-Reply-To: <200701021527.l02FQhEK084829@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200701021527.l02FQhEK084829@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <57069.207.245.121.210.1167758411.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> ----- Link to pics for Exatron Stringy, in use on a TRS 80 Model I: http://vintagecomputer.net/tandy/trs80_1/exatron_stringy_floppy/ ----- From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Jan 2 11:32:11 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 09:32:11 -0800 Subject: Network question Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D189D78@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Michael B. wrote: In the case of a really old system like that, it doesn't matter what the network is - the network will never be the problem, unless I use bongos as the transport mechanism. Mike ----------------- I had a computer like that once... Billy From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 2 11:26:48 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:26:48 -0600 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <4597237A.80508@gjcp.net> References: <45944BDD.20379.6178867@cclist.sydex.com> <4595349B.24749.9A4AFAA@cclist.sydex.com> <4597237A.80508@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102111134.07c2fe58@mail> >>On 29 Dec 2006 at 22:20, Tony Duell wrote: >>>What the heck is Sabbath Mode? More than you want to know, from a kosher certification group: http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-SM.htm It says Whirlpool was awarded a patent for this in 1998. The oven stays on for more than 12 hours, and doesn't change state when you open the door to use the already-warm oven: "No lights, digits, solenoids, fans, icons, tones or displays will be activated/modified in the normal operation of the oven." And yes, this affects refrigerators, too: http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooling-keepcool.htm For example, they worry that opening the door turns on a light, which is prohibited. Such permutations have been considered for hundreds of years, even down to whether you can allow a trained monkey, parrot or elephant to do the work for you. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 2 11:39:10 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 10:39:10 -0700 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <459A98BE.4050803@jetnet.ab.ca> CRC wrote: >> Cleaning out things and came across 40+ tubes (24/tube) of TTL 5400 >> Quad Nand Gates (Mil version of the 7400). Free for postage. >> >> Here's your chance to build your computer from scratch :oD >> >> CRC > > > 'Tis all gone... > > CRC So what computer got built? For my final post -- About 20 TTL packages ( 80 2 input nand gates ) are needed for a simple 1 bit , bit slice PCB. XOR gates, Flip/flops and muiltiplexers sure take up several packages. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jan 2 12:45:13 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 15:45:13 -0300 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> Message-ID: <033c01c72e9e$2ae8d180$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Here is a picture of the machine you are connecting to, complete with > the Western Digital 8003 Ethernet card grafted onto the side: > http://brutman.com/PCjr_WD_small.jpg Nice! From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jan 2 11:51:57 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 12:51:57 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 - Done! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Jan 2007 21:31:09 CST." <4599D1FD.8040400@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200701021751.l02Hpvqh001685@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > >- Telnet options negotiation be careful when doing this. I've written a few different telnet servers and it's very easy to end up in a loop. -brad From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 2 11:51:55 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:51:55 -0600 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <200701020542.l025gc8o020276@floodgap.com> References: <45997BB0.25555.239A394@cclist.sydex.com> <200701020542.l025gc8o020276@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102114740.07d284c0@mail> At 11:42 PM 1/1/2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Well, let me put it this way -- my 7100 (the one I attempted mkLinux on) >is now banished to OS 9 and acting as an AppleTalk server for the old Macs >that have trouble speaking to the Panther file server. I fired up my 7200 the other day. I wanted to try to recover an old floppy from a client who claimed it had some Illustrator artwork on it. The disk had the 'HD' (CH) logo but I couldn't read it in either of two HD Mac drives of that era. What floppy disk recovery / probing tools might I use to see if I can recover the artwork? My old IIci wouldn't boot when I took it from storage, with or without its PPC add-on card. I even tried booting it with the 7200's drive. Just a question-mark disk icon. A few weeks before, I'd tried to read an old Amiga drive from the same era. No go. Both drives were old Quantum 80s. Are these known to decay in a certain way? - John From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 2 12:05:28 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:05:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 - Done! In-Reply-To: <200701021751.l02Hpvqh001685@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200701021751.l02Hpvqh001685@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200701021808.NAA07273@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> - Telnet options negotiation > be careful when doing this. I've written a few different telnet > servers and it's very easy to end up in a loop. If you always refuse everything (DO elicits WONT, WILL elicits DONT, ignore DONT and WONT) then I can't see how it can loop, unless some client brokenly insists on retrying to turn something on when you reject it. ...hmm, on second thought, this is supposed to interoperate with Windows telnet, so peer code that braindead is a real hazard.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 2 12:08:37 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:08:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102111134.07c2fe58@mail> References: <45944BDD.20379.6178867@cclist.sydex.com> <4595349B.24749.9A4AFAA@cclist.sydex.com> <4597237A.80508@gjcp.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070102111134.07c2fe58@mail> Message-ID: <200701021809.NAA07292@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> What the heck is Sabbath Mode? > More than you want to know, from a kosher certification group: > http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-SM.htm > [...] > Such permutations have been considered for hundreds of years, even > down to whether you can allow a trained monkey, parrot or elephant to > do the work for you. I've heard of shabbat goys, but, parrot?? That's just ridiculous. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 2 12:13:08 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 10:13:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102114740.07d284c0@mail> from John Foust at "Jan 2, 7 11:51:55 am" Message-ID: <200701021813.l02ID9Ch020566@floodgap.com> > I fired up my 7200 the other day. I wanted to try to recover an old floppy > from a client who claimed it had some Illustrator artwork on it. The disk > had the 'HD' (CH) logo but I couldn't read it in either of two HD Mac drives > of that era. > > What floppy disk recovery / probing tools might I use to see > if I can recover the artwork? Does it pop up saying the disk needs to be initialized? Are you sure it's HFS? An HFS+ floppy will not be readable in Macs running 8.0 or earlier, and obviously a FAT floppy requires PC File Exchange. Otherwise you might see if Disk Copy can at least image it, and then look at whatever image it spits back out. > My old IIci wouldn't boot when I took it from storage, with or > without its PPC add-on card. I even tried booting it with the 7200's > drive. Just a question-mark disk icon. I'm not surprised the IIci wouldn't boot the 7200's drive. I imagine the HD driver is not compatible. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A different taste in jokes is a great strain on the affections. -- G. Eliot From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 2 12:15:48 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 10:15:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <200701021809.NAA07292@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Jan 2, 7 01:08:37 pm" Message-ID: <200701021815.l02IFmHK027434@floodgap.com> > >>>> What the heck is Sabbath Mode? > > More than you want to know, from a kosher certification group: > > http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-SM.htm > > [...] > > Such permutations have been considered for hundreds of years, even > > down to whether you can allow a trained monkey, parrot or elephant to > > do the work for you. > > I've heard of shabbat goys, but, parrot?? That's just ridiculous. :-) I was impressed with the detail level of the regulations. For example, http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-ovenshabbos.htm I'm kind of glad I'm a goy now. Arthur Naiman: Why did God create goyim? Because somebody has to pay retail. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. ------ From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 2 12:08:34 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 12:08:34 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102120419.04723dc0@mail> At 12:38 PM 12/31/2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >My DSL speed is 1.6Mbps, so I'm thinking that there's little reason >to upgrade the setup. Am I thinking correctly or am I likely to see >an improvement in internet access speed if I upgrade? I vote for the upgrade, just on principle. Pulling new wire rejuvenates the spirit. I think the blood sacrifice improves the transfer times, too. Here is some old advice on this topic, at the bottom of the page: http://www.ipprimer.com/ethernet.cfm If I were to summarize Jay's advice as further justification for an upgrade, it would be "if you don't measure, you don't know." You've measured throughput and discovered some slow spots, but did you also measure latency, and would improved latency make your contemporary computers happier on the Internet? - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 12:28:06 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:28:06 -0500 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <459A8900.4040606@bitsavers.org> References: <459A8900.4040606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/2/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > This is a university town and, > > so G3's aren't hard to come by cheap if the urge should ever hit me > > again. > > Beige G3's are OK, and still have SCSI and serial ports. I have a gaggle > of G3 powerbooks that I use at CHM for various recovery projects. Blue > and White machines switched to USB and dumped SCSI and serial, which > make them less interesting. Mine came with a PCI SCSI card, so the lack of onboard SCSI isn't a problem, but I do miss _real_ serial ports. I play with things like LCD controllers (yes, there _are_ USB-attached textual and graphical LCDs, but they aren't as easy to talk to), so it's nice to have either a real serial port or a real parallel port for simplicity. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 2 12:34:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 10:34:25 -0800 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2007 at 0:23, Brent Hilpert wrote: > The parametron circuit was AC-coupled wasn't it? .. read a little > > bit about it some years ago, but not in much depth. There was at least one production parametron-based computer: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/NEC/NEC.1103.1958102 646285.pdf Vacuum-tube logic circuits with AC coupling weren't uncommon (e.g your typical instrumentation ring counter), but I was wondering if AC logic ever made it into a production semiconductor system. The parametron subject came up again when Josephson junctions were hot. (ouch!): http://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Flux-Parametron-Superconducting- Supercomputers/dp/9810204590 > ..haven't heard of that one before. Apparently, it's one of those things that is periodically "invented": http://ceng.usc.edu/~bkrishna/research/papers/RAWCON98_ghzdigital.pdf It probably wouldn't do to write the authors and tell them that the basis for their patents is more than 40 years old. When I've done that (e.g., "Did you know that your work was discussed in a paper from 1962? I can send you a copy if you'd like."), intellectual courtesy seems to go out the window. But the idea's the same, using passively-combined microwave signals whose logic value is dictated by phase. Sometimes it seems that much of human innovation is just a rehash of old ideas that failed when the time just wasn't right. I believe that the same book that discussed microwave logic also talked about storing bits in a bottle of water using some sort of nuclear spin technique. About the only thing I recall is that it involved timed reversals of an external memory field and that reading back the stored bits was a real chore. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 2 12:28:29 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 12:28:29 -0600 Subject: high school and timesharing In-Reply-To: <003601c7256e$7ca3d350$6401a8c0@wtr.local> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061221181358.0d5feec8@localhost> <003601c7256e$7ca3d350$6401a8c0@wtr.local> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102122409.07e6e0f0@mail> At 08:11 PM 12/21/2006, Jon Miles wrote: >Wow, Tom, are you a Nicolet HS alumnus? From looking in my yearbooks I'm >guessing class of '78? [...] I then also went to >UWM and got to work on their Edusystem 50 too. I remember renting a table >top ASR33 and dialing into the UWM system from home. I was dialing up to the UWM's machine from Shorewood on as ASR-33 in 1975, although as part of an after-school programming class when I was 12. :-) - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 2 12:31:51 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 12:31:51 -0600 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <200701021813.l02ID9Ch020566@floodgap.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102114740.07d284c0@mail> <200701021813.l02ID9Ch020566@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102122909.07cd4bc8@mail> At 12:13 PM 1/2/2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Does it pop up saying the disk needs to be initialized? Are you sure it's >HFS? No, the client knows next to nothing about it. Yes, after I insert the disk, it waits what seems like several minutes, then says it wants to initialize it. >An HFS+ floppy will not be readable in Macs running 8.0 or earlier, and >obviously a FAT floppy requires PC File Exchange. Yes, I tried reading it on a PC. No luck. >I'm not surprised the IIci wouldn't boot the 7200's drive. I imagine the >HD driver is not compatible. And the symptom of that would be what? Incompatible in hardware, or that there wasn't a 68000-capable HD driver still in System? - John From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Jan 2 12:40:17 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:40:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: HP 7200A Plotter and DEC VT50 terminal Message-ID: <21001021.1167763217887.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Does anyone out there have a Hewlett Packard 7200A plotter (made around 1972) or a DEC VT50 (not VT52) terminal? I am looking for both of these items for my classic computer center. Thanks, Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From wizard at voyager.net Tue Jan 2 12:53:50 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:53:50 -0500 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <200701021809.NAA07292@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45944BDD.20379.6178867@cclist.sydex.com> <4595349B.24749.9A4AFAA@cclist.sydex.com> <4597237A.80508@gjcp.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070102111134.07c2fe58@mail> <200701021809.NAA07292@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1167764031.13407.21.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 13:08 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > I've heard of shabbat goys, but, parrot?? > That's just ridiculous. :-) Ridiculous? Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxGAnK8F_b0 Ay, ay, ay, Manny Cockatoo wizard at voyager.net From james.rice at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 13:12:47 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:12:47 -0600 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102111134.07c2fe58@mail> References: <45944BDD.20379.6178867@cclist.sydex.com> <4595349B.24749.9A4AFAA@cclist.sydex.com> <4597237A.80508@gjcp.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070102111134.07c2fe58@mail> Message-ID: On 1/2/07, John Foust wrote: > > > http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-SM.htm > > The oven stays on for more than 12 hours, and doesn't change state > when you open the door to use the already-warm oven: > > "No lights, digits, solenoids, fans, icons, tones or displays > will be activated/modified in the normal operation of the oven." > > And yes, this affects refrigerators, too: > > For example, they worry that opening the door turns on > a light, which is prohibited. > > > My Wolf and SubZero appliances are certified Star K. The Kosher mode instructions took more pages in the manuals than the generic versions. James -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 2 13:13:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:13:51 -0800 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: References: <459A8900.4040606@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <459A3E6F.15935.5325DDC@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2007 at 13:28, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Mine came with a PCI SCSI card, so the lack of onboard SCSI isn't a > problem, but I do miss _real_ serial ports. I play with things like > LCD controllers (yes, there _are_ USB-attached textual and graphical > LCDs, but they aren't as easy to talk to), so it's nice to have either > a real serial port or a real parallel port for simplicity. The local recycler is selling complete beige G3's for $25 the each: http://www.lanecrrc.org/sales/ I'd have to figure out what to do with one, however. Cheers, Chuck From jhoger at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 13:20:06 2007 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John R.) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 11:20:06 -0800 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 - Done! In-Reply-To: <4599D1FD.8040400@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <4599D1FD.8040400@brutman.com> Message-ID: On 1/1/07, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > - I suspect I need to work on my RST segment processing - I think I'm > being too strict about what I consider to be an allowable RST. It's all > in the RFCs, I just must not be grokking. > What do you mean by "allowable RST?" RST can be thought of as hard-close, or "Sorry peer, I don't have any context about the connection you sent a packet for," or "this port is not accepting connections." It is always allowed. It is not the ideal way to close a connection, but as a peer receiving it you must always handle it, and you may send it if you have a good reason. Some consideration may be given to detecting spoofed RSTs attempting to interfere with valid connections. But I suspect you are not terribly interested in complicating your code with such corner case at this point (there are a lot of things like this if you really want to get into it). -- John. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 2 13:22:50 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 11:22:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070102111916.U92772@shell.lmi.net> > >1 A=61456:B=61441:C=61457:D=1 > >2 WAIT A,D,D:POKE B,PEEK(C):GOTO 2 On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > As Lee shows, not having to interpret the numbers each time > should speed things up. Reading decimal numbers requires > division. That is just about the slowest thing the computer can > do. If the values are stored in variables, they are already converted > to a computer friendly format. I'm coming in late on this discusssion, and I don't even know what machine we're talking about. 1) Many versions of basic use single precision floating point as the default variable type! Explicitly declaring A,B,C,D to be integer might make a significant performance change. 2) Any particular reason to not do it in machine language? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 2 13:24:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:24:49 -0800 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca>, <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <459A4101.5608.53C6A27@cclist.sydex.com> I stumbled on this document: http://klabs.org/mapld04/papers/g/g233_alonso_p.doc while wondering about AC transformer-coupled logic and discovered that the original idea for the Apollo guidance computer was to use AC- coupled (core-transistor) logic. How's that for tying two threads together? :) Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 2 13:29:59 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:29:59 -0600 Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records In-Reply-To: <20070102111916.U92772@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070102111916.U92772@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102132827.07ce7ca8@mail> At 01:22 PM 1/2/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >1 A=61456:B=61441:C=61457:D=1 >> >2 WAIT A,D,D:POKE B,PEEK(C):GOTO 2 > >On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, dwight elvey wrote: >> As Lee shows, not having to interpret the numbers each time >> should speed things up. Reading decimal numbers requires >> division. That is just about the slowest thing the computer can >> do. If the values are stored in variables, they are already converted >> to a computer friendly format. > >I'm coming in late on this discusssion, and I don't even know what machine >we're talking about. I questioned the assumption that the interpreter would parse the integer value from source code each time. Wouldn't most BASICs tokenize to a 16-bit integer in memory, once at loading? - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 2 14:15:47 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 12:15:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102132827.07ce7ca8@mail> References: <20070102111916.U92772@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070102132827.07ce7ca8@mail> Message-ID: <20070102115515.J92772@shell.lmi.net> > >> >1 A=61456:B=61441:C=61457:D=1 > >> >2 WAIT A,D,D:POKE B,PEEK(C):GOTO 2 > >I'm coming in late on this discusssion, and I don't even know what machine > >we're talking about. On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, John Foust wrote: > I questioned the assumption that the interpreter would parse > the integer value from source code each time. Wouldn't most BASICs > tokenize to a 16-bit integer in memory, once at loading? BASICA, and other 5150 BASICs store those numbers in RAM as 32 bit floating point! Thus, 10 X = [some number that does not come out evenly in IEEE floating point], will actually come back differently when LISTed! It is true that the code being executed is tokenized, NOT run from what we think of as source code. But, at least in THOSE BASICs, all numbers are floating point, unless explicitly declared otherwise, There is a noticable effect on performance by declaring the variables to be integer. 2) WHAT machine, and what version of BASIC are we talking about here? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 2 14:23:24 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 12:23:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102132827.07ce7ca8@mail> from John Foust at "Jan 2, 7 01:29:59 pm" Message-ID: <200701022023.l02KNOOC024486@floodgap.com> > I questioned the assumption that the interpreter would parse > the integer value from source code each time. Wouldn't most BASICs > tokenize to a 16-bit integer in memory, once at loading? I don't know about this BASIC, but most Microsoft-derived BASICs do not (I know for sure that Applesoft and Commodore BASICs don't). In fact, pre-assigning constants to variables in Commodore BASIC is a very frequent method of speeding up BASIC execution. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- California, land of cereal: some fruits, nuts, and a lot of flakes. -------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 2 14:36:30 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 12:36:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102122909.07cd4bc8@mail> from John Foust at "Jan 2, 7 12:31:51 pm" Message-ID: <200701022036.l02KaUCo022886@floodgap.com> > >Does it pop up saying the disk needs to be initialized? Are you sure it's > >HFS? > > No, the client knows next to nothing about it. Yes, after I insert > the disk, it waits what seems like several minutes, then says > it wants to initialize it. I'd let Disk Copy take a whack at it then. Make sure Disk Copy is running before you insert the disk. At least you'd be able to look at the raw image in a hex editor and see if it looks halfway sensible. > > I'm not surprised the IIci wouldn't boot the 7200's drive. I imagine the > > HD driver is not compatible. > > And the symptom of that would be what? Incompatible in hardware, > or that there wasn't a 68000-capable HD driver still in System? The symptom would be not booting ;) the incompatibility is, as you say, the lack of a 68K-based HD driver, but the driver on a Classic Mac disk resides on the first partition. If the HD is formatted for HFS+, it is not bootable on *any* 68K Mac, even if the Mac is a 68040 and can run 8.1, because there is no 68K-bootable HFS+ HD driver at all. Such '040s can read HFS+ volumes once they have booted, but they cannot boot from them because even though there is support for HFS+ in the System, the system has to boot first to even *get* the System file. A IIci obviously falls in the same booting category. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Funny, I don't remember being absent minded. ------------------------------- From trag at io.com Tue Jan 2 15:02:21 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 15:02:21 -0600 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <200701021534.l02FY6HG085135@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200701021534.l02FY6HG085135@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 21:12:47 -0800 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Yeah, no kidding--someone game me a Mac 6100/60. Not very exciting, >but I've upgraded the memory to 40 MB and added a 4GB hard disk from >parts in my hellbox. > >So, does anyone have any first-hand experience with Linux on one of >these critters? Is it worth the installation trouble? As long as you have a 6100, you should have a look at this page: . It has a wealth of information all aimed at the 6100 specifically. Jeff Walther From grant at stockly.com Tue Jan 2 15:22:27 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 12:22:27 -0900 Subject: Altair 680 CSAVE Problems!@ : ( In-Reply-To: <008601c72e25$dc318910$6601a8c0@downstairs2> References: <200701011800.l01I0P6h069008@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102121911.0425fad8@pop.1and1.com> At 07:24 PM 1/1/2007, you wrote: >Here is my copy of Altair 680 BASIC. I never owned an Altair, I bought >this for my SWTPC 6800. > >The BASIC and manuals are here. >http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Altair/Altair_Basic.htm > >Michael Holley Thanks. I found your web page earlier that day. Your file crashes the Altair 680 unless you remove the line with address F0-FF. That is space used by the MITS ROM Montior. (once it loads that memory range it crashes) Otherwise I just typed "L" for load and pasted in the data at 9600bps. How did you read this into your computer? Do you have a paper tape reader? I want to find someone with the Editor/Assembelr package on paper tape. Maybe we can get together with you and transfer it. Let me know! : ) Thanks, Grant From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 2 15:25:53 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 14:25:53 -0700 Subject: Shipping company moveit.com Message-ID: I'm using them for a dovebid sale and while things are scheduled to be delivered tomorrow (knock on wood), so far I've been pretty unimpressed with moveit.com. They haven't been very good at communicating important details like MY SHIPPING ADDRESS, when the shipment would be made, how payment was to take place, etc. They say they do a love of business through dovebid, and while that may be so, I don't think I would use them again in the future compared to my experiences with cratersandfreighters.com. Has anyone else used these guys? What was your experience? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From grant at stockly.com Tue Jan 2 15:27:59 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 12:27:59 -0900 Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records In-Reply-To: <459A3DA7.A61A3EA4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070101234426.044d1ae8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102122309.04690140@pop.1and1.com> >Can't help you with the tape read problem although the speed issue as you >suggest sounds like a good guess, but as for the >byte count issue: it's 13 hex = 19 dec, which works out exactly for the line >you show when you include the address bytes (everything after the 13). > >Lesson: you're up too late at night :) ...but then so am I (!) :/ Thats a big relief... With these hex characters encoded onto tape as two 7 bit ASCII chracters its easy to loose track. Not once did I think of converting 13 to hex... Grant From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 2 15:51:08 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:51:08 -0800 Subject: Shipping company moveit.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459AD3CC.6090508@shiresoft.com> I do *all* of my large shipping through them (unless I do it myself). I have been *extremely* happy with them and I've been using them for a number of years now. One of the things I like about them is that they are pretty much "fire and forget". I don't have to hand hold them to get stuff done and they do a good job of getting stuff moved with no breakage. I do however give them *all* of the information at the start of the transaction. Of course, I've done enough business with them that they call me up occasionally to see if I have anything that needs to be shipped. Richard wrote: > I'm using them for a dovebid sale and while things are scheduled to be > delivered tomorrow (knock on wood), so far I've been pretty > unimpressed with moveit.com. They haven't been very good at > communicating important details like MY SHIPPING ADDRESS, when the > shipment would be made, how payment was to take place, etc. > > They say they do a love of business through dovebid, and while that > may be so, I don't think I would use them again in the future compared > to my experiences with cratersandfreighters.com. > > Has anyone else used these guys? > > What was your experience? > -- TTFN - Guy From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 2 16:08:39 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:08:39 -0800 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/31/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's that coax that I dread replacing--it goes > between floors and snaking it through the walls was a real chore. Depending upon how many bends and whether it is fastened to the walls, it might be a fairly easy replacement. Cat 6 cable is close enough to the the same diameter as coax, so it should fit in the same run. I've done it by splicing the Cat 6 to the coax. Getting a splice that isn't of larger diameter than the coax is the tough part. The tightest splice I managed to do involved a needle, fishing line, glue, and heat shrink tubing, but that case was extreme due to unreachable metal grommets in the middle of the run. Once the splice is done and you are convinced it is strong enough, just pull it through. > > My DSL speed is 1.6Mbps, so I'm thinking that there's little reason > to upgrade the setup. Am I thinking correctly or am I likely to see > an improvement in internet access speed if I upgrade? You're not going to see a speed increase to the outside, but you might see a speed increase between machines on the local net. It's useful if you have modern machines that share files on both floors/ On the rack next to me is a 10/100bT switch, a 10/100bT hub, a 10bT hub with coax uplink, an ethernet-localtalk interface, and 54 Mbps wireless access point. The cable modem and another 10/100bT switch are downstairs in the garage. Now if I could find a way to get Arcnet into the mix..... From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 2 16:08:39 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:08:39 -0800 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/31/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's that coax that I dread replacing--it goes > between floors and snaking it through the walls was a real chore. Depending upon how many bends and whether it is fastened to the walls, it might be a fairly easy replacement. Cat 6 cable is close enough to the the same diameter as coax, so it should fit in the same run. I've done it by splicing the Cat 6 to the coax. Getting a splice that isn't of larger diameter than the coax is the tough part. The tightest splice I managed to do involved a needle, fishing line, glue, and heat shrink tubing, but that case was extreme due to unreachable metal grommets in the middle of the run. Once the splice is done and you are convinced it is strong enough, just pull it through. > > My DSL speed is 1.6Mbps, so I'm thinking that there's little reason > to upgrade the setup. Am I thinking correctly or am I likely to see > an improvement in internet access speed if I upgrade? You're not going to see a speed increase to the outside, but you might see a speed increase between machines on the local net. It's useful if you have modern machines that share files on both floors/ On the rack next to me is a 10/100bT switch, a 10/100bT hub, a 10bT hub with coax uplink, an ethernet-localtalk interface, and 54 Mbps wireless access point. The cable modem and another 10/100bT switch are downstairs in the garage. Now if I could find a way to get Arcnet into the mix..... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 2 16:07:48 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 22:07:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <459A98BE.4050803@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Jan 2, 7 10:39:10 am Message-ID: > For my final post -- About 20 TTL packages ( 80 2 input nand gates ) > are needed for a simple 1 bit , bit slice PCB. XOR gates, Flip/flops > and muiltiplexers sure take up several packages. You can make a 2-input XOR gate from 4 NANDs (a single 7400). Ditto a 2-input single-bit mux. And of course a pair of SR flip-flops take up a single 7400... Making a JK or equivalent would be a few pacakges, though. I've not worked it out, but I think a master-slave JK flip-flop is 3 or 4 7400s. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 2 15:47:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 21:47:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-97 Manual In-Reply-To: from "Reber48035@aol.com" at Dec 31, 6 05:41:56 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I'm finding inconsistencies between the HP-67 & HP-97. In what way? They were supposed to be fully compatible, with the only differences beoing, for example, there's an instruction to pause a program and display the X register on the 67, on the 97 it prints the X register. There are known to be differences with outputting non-normalised-numbers, in fact it's possible to burn out the 97 printhead if you try to print NNNs. And, IIRC, there are 2 versions of a pair of ROMs in these machines (they must be replaced as a pair, one of each will not work properly). They have totally diferent part numbers. I assume the change was a bug fix (which might expalin what you're seeing if one machine has the old version the other the newversion). > > I'm looking for an HP-97 Manual and saw a note from Joe that stated Mike Haas > found one. Is it for sale? I think the user manuals for both machines (and the 97 service manual) are available on the MoHPC CD-ROM set (http://www,hpmuseum.org). If you're interested in HP calculators, that set of CD-ROMs is well worth the money (assuming you have a mahcine that can read them and display/print .pdf files :-)) You might also try asking a similar question on the forum on that site, some very knowledgabel people turn up there. Or poke aobut on the HPCC web site (http://www.hpcc.org) and ask that club's committee if they have any thoughts. -tony From grant at stockly.com Tue Jan 2 16:26:47 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:26:47 -0900 Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records In-Reply-To: <200701021322.l02DMdnx025827@mail4.magma.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070101234426.044d1ae8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102123503.03fa3c48@pop.1and1.com> >If it's any use to you, I can send some tools to work with this type of >data (change record size, load address, convert to binary, set fill >values etc.). I can also give you assembler/disassemblers which will >work with MHX directly. That would be great! Just send it to my list address. I have no size limit. >PS: I'd like to get a copy of the data once you get it extracted. I have a memory dump of basic loaded and unitialized from 0000-1FFF, but I want the original data extracted off the tape. I hooked a 232 transciever and inverter up to the demodulated output from the KCACR (right at the 1013 ACIA IC) and it wasn't 300bps. I had a 2.5ms bit clock and it should have been around 3.3ms. I am going crazy to the point of completely ignoring the following fact. I have 7-8 WAV files on my computer. I started recording the second I pushed play, which was right at the beginning of the tape. I stopped recording when it lost the carrier. I have 3 recordings that are 13:30 minutes long and 3-4 that are 10:17 long. The KCACR will load basic with either length, although at 13:30 minutes it is very sensitive to tape quality it seems. I have a very nice tape deck with dc servo controlled motors. This is very disapointing to me. It makes me cry to think about it... : ( I want a perfect quality recording of the tape and it kills me to think I have to hook one of my "junk" players up to the computer to get it... I think the reason that the demodulated output is not 300bps is the KCACR is locking onto the tape speed? The KCACR is supposed to handle a +-20% speed variance. The bitclock must be provided to the 1013 ACIA. I don't have the manual for the KCACR yet, so I have no idea... My idea to get a PERFECT MITS basic sound file is to recover the S records and generate a new sound file using the KCS.EXE program found on the web. Comments? Grant From grant at stockly.com Tue Jan 2 16:37:54 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:37:54 -0900 Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records In-Reply-To: <20070102115515.J92772@shell.lmi.net> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102132827.07ce7ca8@mail> <20070102111916.U92772@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070102132827.07ce7ca8@mail> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102133647.0443a6e0@pop.1and1.com> >2) WHAT machine, and what version of BASIC are we talking about here? Altair 680. Version 1.1 Rev 3.2 of what seems to be a modified Altair 8800 8k non extended basic. Grant From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 16:41:58 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 17:41:58 -0500 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca> <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > There was at least one production parametron-based computer: I have a Japanese parametron logic trainer. I think there are 12 parametrons in it, so it is not too useful. I think parametrons died out fast because all other logic forms were much easier to implement as speeds increased. Once the things get up into the MHz region, tuning and phase shifting became real issues. Nobody wants to tune logic - leave that to the radio guys. -- Will From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Jan 2 16:46:39 2007 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 17:46:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Shipping company moveit.com Message-ID: <3004771.1167778000016.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I do all of my large shipping with them too, and have been totally satisfied with their service. I agree with everything that Guy has said. I have used them many times during the past 3 years to ship *LOTS* of large equipment, PDP-11 blinkinglight systems in racks, fragile 35 year old terminals on pedestals, etc. They have always delivered oir picked up on time and it was a painless process just as Guy described. I was a little nervous with my first shipment, but they have proven time and time again that they will get my stuff moved in a safe and timely manner. Last week I they delivered two large racks of 35 year old PDP-11 systems and drives, a DecWriter, and a card reader to my place. They gave me a delivery date with a 3 hour window of delivery, and the delivery truck came right in the middle of the delivery window. Smooth and painless. Ashley -----Original Message----- >From: Guy Sotomayor >Sent: Jan 2, 2007 4:51 PM >To: General at shiresoft.com, Discussion at shiresoft.com@null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null at null >Subject: Re: Shipping company moveit.com > >I do *all* of my large shipping through them (unless I do it myself). I >have been *extremely* happy with them and I've been using them for a >number of years now. One of the things I like about them is that they >are pretty much "fire and forget". I don't have to hand hold them to >get stuff done and they do a good job of getting stuff moved with no >breakage. I do however give them *all* of the information at the start >of the transaction. > >Of course, I've done enough business with them that they call me up >occasionally to see if I have anything that needs to be shipped. > >Richard wrote: >> I'm using them for a dovebid sale and while things are scheduled to be >> delivered tomorrow (knock on wood), so far I've been pretty >> unimpressed with moveit.com. They haven't been very good at >> communicating important details like MY SHIPPING ADDRESS, when the >> shipment would be made, how payment was to take place, etc. >> >> They say they do a love of business through dovebid, and while that >> may be so, I don't think I would use them again in the future compared >> to my experiences with cratersandfreighters.com. >> >> Has anyone else used these guys? >> >> What was your experience? >> > >-- > >TTFN - Guy > > From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Jan 2 16:50:31 2007 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 23:50:31 +0100 Subject: ECMA 34 was : Recovering Cassette Tape Records References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102132827.07ce7ca8@mail><20070102111916.U92772@shell.lmi.net><6.2.3.4.2.20070102132827.07ce7ca8@mail> <5.2.1.1.0.20070102133647.0443a6e0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <002401c72ec0$6841cdd0$2101a8c0@finans> While speaking of cassette tapes : I have two Philips cassette decks available. The rubber band has disintegrated. I seem to remember that the ECMA standard was called ECMA 34. The logic consists of Philips 6 volt TTL. It is a bit vague, but I am quite sure that the bit rate is about 300 bps. The tapes can contain 250 K on each side. There is a cut-out in the back of the cassettes, indicating side A or B They are available for the mailing cost (from Denmark) Nico From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jan 2 16:59:35 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:59:35 -0800 Subject: My first Mac Message-ID: >> Does it pop up saying the disk needs to be initialized? Are you sure >> it's >> HFS? I'd first give Disk First Aid or some similar program a go at it. Start up DFA first and then insert the disk and scan it. Try covering the HD hole, also- 800k Macs could format 1.44s at 800k which could confuse a newer machine. You might be sunk, though, if that's the case, as some 800k drives don't magnetize the disk strongly enough and it is unreadable after several years. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 2 18:15:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 16:15:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070103001549.48467.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Oi what a bunch of hoserz! Enough about P2s and P3s littering the sidewalk...Got relevance???. You got and older Mac in yer hands so play with it! Try YDL like I said http://yellowdog.open-mirror.com/index2.php?pwd=.%2F%2Fyellowdog-2.3 There are some older versions there. Some of the later version have the 2.6.? kernel. Apparently there's a version YDL for the Sony PS3 too. Sheesh what would you say if he had found a IIfx or whatever. Oh pyew, it's a hassle...it's slow...it takes weird ram. It's old, it's fun, so stifle it! We're not talking about ancient history, but I remember the cd cubes/stacks that you used to be able to buy from Compusa and others. Loads and loads of shareware. Lost mine :(. Right around the time of the inception of the PPC based Macs. Oi. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 2 18:21:56 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 19:21:56 -0500 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <1167764031.13407.21.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <000001c72ecd$2ecabb40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> Ridiculous? Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy.. This thread has been entertaining, albeit OT, but "Jew don't want to go..." is not funny and I find it a bit offensive. -----Original Message----- From: Warren Wolfe [mailto:wizard at voyager.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 1:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kosher stove and fridge On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 13:08 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > I've heard of shabbat goys, but, parrot?? > That's just ridiculous. :-) . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxGAnK8F_b0 Ay, ay, ay, Manny Cockatoo wizard at voyager.net From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 2 18:27:11 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 16:27:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: any interest in a teal SGI Indigo 2? Message-ID: <20070103002711.13914.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> I have at least a couple I need to get rid of. Too much stuff. No keyboards or mice (they take the regular ps/2 type though), no OS, probably busted drive door hinges, somewhat scuffed up. They weigh about 40 lbs, so keep that in mind. Free otherwise. E-mail me offlist please. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 2 19:23:52 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 20:23:52 -0500 Subject: Needed: 80micro magazine Message-ID: <000601c72ed5$d4278520$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I'm looking for the Sept. '83 issue, specifically the article on p. 272 called "Portable Word Processor"... can anyone help me? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 2 19:57:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 17:57:51 -0800 Subject: Needed: 80micro magazine In-Reply-To: <000601c72ed5$d4278520$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000601c72ed5$d4278520$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <459A9D1F.30023.6A43D2F@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2007 at 20:23, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I'm looking for the Sept. '83 issue, specifically the article on p. 272 > called "Portable Word Processor"... can anyone help me? Have you dropped a note to Ira Goldklang? He's usually pretty accomodating. If you're looking for ephemera about the Typecorder, remember it was also featured in the No.1 "Login" Japanese computer rag. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 2 20:01:50 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 21:01:50 -0500 Subject: Needed: 80micro magazine In-Reply-To: <459A9D1F.30023.6A43D2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000c01c72edb$21ee0130$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Actually I just contacted him via IM, and he instantly sent me what I need! Good man! I never heard of Login. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 8:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Needed: 80micro magazine On 2 Jan 2007 at 20:23, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I'm looking for the Sept. '83 issue, specifically the article on p. > 272 called "Portable Word Processor"... can anyone help me? Have you dropped a note to Ira Goldklang? He's usually pretty accomodating. If you're looking for ephemera about the Typecorder, remember it was also featured in the No.1 "Login" Japanese computer rag. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 2 20:11:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 18:11:24 -0800 Subject: Needed: 80micro magazine In-Reply-To: <000c01c72edb$21ee0130$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <459A9D1F.30023.6A43D2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <000c01c72edb$21ee0130$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <459AA04C.32373.6B0A379@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2007 at 21:01, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I never heard of Login. I remember being reviewed in Login and being sent the issue by the publisher. Couldn't make out much other than the occasional English word. At any rate, here's an image of the magazine in question: http://t-kun.sakura.ne.jp/fo/room03/mz08.htm And here's their web site--they seem to be very games-oriented nowadays: http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/login/ Enjoy, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 2 20:16:37 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 18:16:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102133647.0443a6e0@pop.1and1.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102132827.07ce7ca8@mail> <20070102111916.U92772@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070102132827.07ce7ca8@mail> <5.2.1.1.0.20070102133647.0443a6e0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <20070102181444.A12927@shell.lmi.net> > >2) WHAT machine, and what version of BASIC are we talking about here? On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > Altair 680. Version 1.1 Rev 3.2 of what seems to be a modified Altair 8800 > 8k non extended basic. Thank you Then a lot of our assumptions based on newer BASICs may be invalid. Does it have a DEFINT command? From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jan 2 20:34:58 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 20:34:58 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 - Done! In-Reply-To: References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <4599D1FD.8040400@brutman.com> Message-ID: <459B1652.9010101@brutman.com> John R. wrote: > What do you mean by "allowable RST?" RST can be thought of as > hard-close, or "Sorry peer, I don't have any context about the > connection you sent a packet for," or "this port is not accepting > connections." > > It is always allowed. It is not the ideal way to close a connection, > but as a peer receiving it you must always handle it, and you may send > it if you have a good reason. > > Some consideration may be given to detecting spoofed RSTs attempting > to interfere with valid connections. But I suspect you are not > terribly interested in complicating your code with such corner case at > this point (there are a lot of things like this if you really want to > get into it). There are lots of rules in RFC 793 for RST segment generation and handling. You don't want to just whack any connection that gets an RST. The RST has to have correct sequence and ack numbers in the header. Correct can be extended to mean 'in the allowable window'. Otherwise, somebody can have some real fun with your server by just spraying random RST segments at you. I code my RST handling code such that the RST has to be within the current receive window, which is how I read 793. I think I have misread or misinterpreted, and I should include RST packets that are in my window of previously sent (but not yet acknowledged) packets. Corner cases are an interesting design problem. I could make the code quite a bit smaller if I just tweaked the spec a bit. Things like not supporting two sides to do active opens at each other can save code, and it is not a commonly used feature. I might go back and start sprinkling my code with #defines to delete features like that if they are not needed. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jan 2 20:39:20 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 20:39:20 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 In-Reply-To: <033c01c72e9e$2ae8d180$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <033c01c72e9e$2ae8d180$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <459B1758.9020200@brutman.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Here is a picture of the machine you are connecting to, complete with >> the Western Digital 8003 Ethernet card grafted onto the side: >> http://brutman.com/PCjr_WD_small.jpg > > Nice! > > Glad you like it! A few years ago I did a pin-to-pin mapping from the Jr's bus to ISA. Except for DMA and some IRQs, it's doable. The particular adapter that I'm using is a commercial product from the mid 80s. I know of somebody who designed their own version of it and is running an XT hard disk controller with a modified BIOS on their Jr. Cards that do not use DMA and makes limited use of IRQs are candidates for running on the machine. Conflicts with built-in hardware have to be avoided as well, as the onboard diskette and serial ports can't be disabled without a wire cutters. I've run that Western Digital 8003, a 3Com 3C503, an NE1000, a Trantor T130 SCSI card, and a Future Domain 85x variant in the adapter. One day I'll figure out how to rework the BIOS on the Future Domain cards so that I can get the machine to boot from the hard disk. Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jan 2 20:47:26 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 20:47:26 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 - Done! In-Reply-To: <200701020452.XAA21461@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <4599D1FD.8040400@brutman.com> <200701020452.XAA21461@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <459B193E.2010405@brutman.com> der Mouse wrote: >> TCP/IP on an 8088 class machine isn't particularly new and exciting, > > Oh, I don't know; *I* think this is Pretty D*mn Cool! > > Well, okay, TCP on an 8088 may not be exciting. TCP using your own > code on an 8088, that rocks! > And thanks again for the testing - I watched some of your sessions in real time by looking at the tcpdump output. I started this project about a year ago by trying to get the packet driver for a Xircom PE3 10BT (parallel port Ethernet adapter) to send a packet. That worked pretty well - I had to learn how to mix x86 ASM in my C code, but it worked. Receiving packets was a different story - the dang Xircom packet driver was written in a non-friendly way, so interfacing to it was not as easy as it should have been. After two days of disassembling code, hacking, and experimenting I finally got data in and out. After that I needed ARP. Then I went to UDP. TCP scared me, so I procrastinated quite a bit. I still have a bit of cleanup and testing to do, but I'm finally over the hump again and it's back to being fun. About six months ago I found a good ISA bus adapter for the Jr and I tried out that Western Digital card. Wow .. compared to the Xircom on the parallel port, it's a rocket. The Xircoms are a good solution for limited machines, but I definitely need to reproduce the adapter card. At some point when it is a little more polished and tested I'll put a web page up and release it to the universe. There are a handful of TCP/IP stacks out there already, but I think mine is going to be the fastest by a pretty wide margin. Part of the joy of coding is seeing others make use of the code. I'd like to see some new/refreshed TCP/IP apps for older machines. I was intending to do a telnet BBS, but that's going to take a lot more effort and the audience for that is fairly limited. Mike From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 2 21:56:40 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:56:40 -0600 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <200701022036.l02KaUCo022886@floodgap.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102122909.07cd4bc8@mail> <200701022036.l02KaUCo022886@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102214831.07f1f888@mail> At 02:36 PM 1/2/2007, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >I'd let Disk Copy take a whack at it then. Make sure Disk Copy is running >before you insert the disk. At least you'd be able to look at the raw >image in a hex editor and see if it looks halfway sensible. Disk Copy 4.2 ("Apple 3.5" Disk Duplicator") waits a while, then ejects the floppy. Disk First Aid would hang for a while, declare it to have a volume name of two squares, then it would say it couldn't read it. Hiding the HD hole didn't make a difference... in fact, these programs (as well as the Desktop) almost immediately ejected it. I have newer disk recovery tools, not so much older ones. I think what I really need is a USB low/high density external floppy for a contemporary Mac. I tried a generic USB floppy. Of course it didn't work because it wasn't blessed by Apple. And should I expect a contemporary USB Mac floppy to handle the older lower densities? - John From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 2 22:15:25 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 20:15:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070102214831.07f1f888@mail> from John Foust at "Jan 2, 7 09:56:40 pm" Message-ID: <200701030415.l034FPKF009050@floodgap.com> > I have newer disk recovery tools, not so much older ones. I think what > I really need is a USB low/high density external floppy for a > contemporary Mac. I tried a generic USB floppy. Of course it > didn't work because it wasn't blessed by Apple. And should I > expect a contemporary USB Mac floppy to handle the older lower > densities? Do such animals exist? I have a "non blessed" USB floppy and it works on my G5, but only for HD disks. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is the business of little minds to shrink. -- Carl Sandburg ------------- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 2 22:24:39 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 20:24:39 -0800 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca>, <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> <459A4101.5608.53C6A27@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <459B3000.79C72EDC@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I stumbled on this document: > > http://klabs.org/mapld04/papers/g/g233_alonso_p.doc > > while wondering about AC transformer-coupled logic and discovered > that the original idea for the Apollo guidance computer was to use AC- > coupled (core-transistor) logic. > > How's that for tying two threads together? :) Now that was a fun read. I'm still trying to understand his description of the core rope ROM though. I'm familiar with core-rope ROM (or at least one version of it) from attempting to make a reader to dump the contents of a Wang calc microcode ROM, but the AGC version sounds like the address-decoding/word-selection is done differently (..need a diagram). And whats up with this mention of LCD displays? I didn't think there was anything practical available that early, or that was going to stand up to the rigours of space-flight - I have a calc with one of the first commercial LCDs (1972) and it's still kind of rudimentary - slow, poor contrast, temperature sensitive... (And it confirmed that the AGC was constructed from a single gate/IC type.) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 2 22:24:49 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 20:24:49 -0800 Subject: timeliness of ideas, was Re: TTL 7400's Available References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca> <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <459B300A.CA72DE38@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Apparently, it's one of those things that is periodically "invented": > > http://ceng.usc.edu/~bkrishna/research/papers/RAWCON98_ghzdigital.pdf > > It probably wouldn't do to write the authors and tell them that the > basis for their patents is more than 40 years old. When I've done > that (e.g., "Did you know that your work was discussed in a paper > from 1962? I can send you a copy if you'd like."), intellectual > courtesy seems to go out the window. But the idea's the same, using > passively-combined microwave signals whose logic value is dictated by > phase. "Sometimes the truth hurts." If they are applying for patents, I can't say I see much reason their sensibilities should be spared. In theory the patent office should be pointing it out but I guess that depends on the patent status of the earlier work. > Sometimes it seems that much of human innovation is just a rehash of > old ideas that failed when the time just wasn't right. Indeed, in computing it sometimes seems that so much was conceived/imagined/ understood 'right from the start' in the 40's and 50's and has just been waiting for the practical (machining, in part) and/or economically-viable ability to implement or make use of those ideas. Perhaps it's just because I've read some about it, but the conception of Whirlwind still amazes me. Even with ENIAC barely functional and the first stored program machines yet to be built - and others just expecting a computer to print lots of numbers on paper for them to muse over - Jay Forrester went straight to the concept of digital computing for real-time simulation and control of analog physical systems, with all the attendant issues of A/D, D/A, user-interfaces, etc. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 2 22:25:01 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 20:25:01 -0800 Subject: parametrons, was Re: TTL 7400's Available References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca> <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <459B3015.4961F42A@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > There was at least one production parametron-based computer: > > I have a Japanese parametron logic trainer. I think there are 12 > parametrons in it, so it is not too useful. ..enough for a 1-bit serial adder with carry flip-flop, perhaps? > I think parametrons died out fast because all other logic forms were > much easier to implement as speeds increased. Once the things get up > into the MHz region, tuning and phase shifting became real issues. > Nobody wants to tune logic - leave that to the radio guys. I was speculating along those lines as well, that as a system got more complex trying to track phase shift through all possible paths in the system would become a nightmare. I know the CDC6600 had individual wires cut to specific lengths, but this seems like a problem of another magnitude. On the same note I was going to say that it would give another meaning to 'tuning the system'. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 2 22:39:48 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:39:48 -0700 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <459B3000.79C72EDC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca>, <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> <459A4101.5608.53C6A27@cclist.sydex.com> <459B3000.79C72EDC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <459B3394.6010202@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > And whats up with this mention of LCD displays? I didn't think there was > anything practical available that early, or that was going to stand up to the > rigours of space-flight - I have a calc with one of the first commercial LCDs > (1972) and it's still kind of rudimentary - slow, poor contrast, temperature sensitive... Doing a bit of googling on the AGC, I found that it uses electroluminescent displays. > (And it confirmed that the AGC was constructed from a single gate/IC type.) > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 2 23:01:46 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:01:46 -0800 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "William Donzelli" > >>There was at least one production parametron-based computer: > >I have a Japanese parametron logic trainer. I think there are 12 >parametrons in it, so it is not too useful. > >I think parametrons died out fast because all other logic forms were >much easier to implement as speeds increased. Once the things get up >into the MHz region, tuning and phase shifting became real issues. >Nobody wants to tune logic - leave that to the radio guys. > >-- >Will Hi Will Ok, tell us more about these things. A web search tells little. All I see is something about non-linear magnetic core, f/2 and phase. I don't see how it is used to create a logical operation. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 2 23:13:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:13:01 -0800 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <459B3000.79C72EDC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459B3000.79C72EDC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <459ACADD.27625.518178@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2007 at 20:24, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Now that was a fun read. I'm still trying to understand his description of > the core rope ROM though. I'm familiar with core-rope ROM (or at least one > version of it) from attempting to make a reader to dump the contents of a Wang > calc microcode ROM, but the AGC version sounds like the > address-decoding/word-selection is done differently (..need a diagram). Somewhere, on one of the AGC sites linked to by the guy who's building his own, is a diagram of both the ROM and RAM setup. In the paper, the author says: "I don?t know of any other computer that uses 1?s complements ." He obviously never met Seymour Cray. One's complement arithmetic isn't hard to deal with; and it helped that Cray designed his ALU as a subtracter rather than an adder, so that the only way (using addition and subtraction) to get a negative zero was to subtract negative zero from negative zero. In practice, this came up very rarely. The zero and nonzero conditional branches worked on both species of zero at any rate. There are a few very clever bit-twiddling tricks possible on a 1's complement machine that don't carry over to 2's complement. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 2 23:22:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:22:41 -0800 Subject: timeliness of ideas, was Re: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <459B300A.CA72DE38@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459B300A.CA72DE38@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <459ACD21.11437.5A5823@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2007 at 20:24, Brent Hilpert wrote: > "Sometimes the truth hurts." If they are applying for patents, I can't say I > see much reason their sensibilities should be spared. In theory the patent > office should be pointing it out but I guess that depends on the patent > status of the earlier work. What's changed is that software methods can now be patented. But not that long ago, the best you could hope for was to publish your algorithm in CALGO or one one of the other journals (say, NYU Courant Institute) and hope someone noticed. I think that a number of software patents currently granted could be undermined with some scholaraly research. Nothing like omitted "prior art" citations to mess over a patent. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 2 23:31:22 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 00:31:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 - Done! In-Reply-To: <459B1652.9010101@brutman.com> References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <4599D1FD.8040400@brutman.com> <459B1652.9010101@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200701030540.AAA16350@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...RST handling...] > You don't want to just whack any connection that gets an RST. [...] > Otherwise, somebody can have some real fun with your server by just > spraying random RST segments at you. True. (At least if ths stack is for use on the open Internet. In some rather closed environments, it may be perfectly acceptable to take down a connection on any RST with the right address/port numbers.) > I code my RST handling code such that the RST has to be within the > current receive window, which is how I read 793. I think I have > misread or misinterpreted, and I should include RST packets that are > in my window of previously sent (but not yet acknowledged) packets. Not quite, I think. Rather, you should take an RST only when its sequence number is right at the edge of the window, provided you send a pure-ACK packet in response to an RST with a bad sequence number. These make it significantly harder for third parties to shoot down your TCP connections. If all they need to do is hit your window, the chance of a random sequence number working is window-size/2^32, which can get comparatively large, especially when window scaling is in use (though admittedly I imagine a PCjr stack does not do window scaling :). But if you accept an RST only when its sequence number is at your window's edge, the chance is 1/2^32 regardless of window size. In order to take down legitimately half-open connections, you need to communicate that sequence number to the legitimate peer, which is what the pure-ACK in response to wrong-sequence RSTs is for - to elicit a properly-sequenced RST. (If you want to be really spiffy, rate-limit the pure-ACK packets, so you can't be used to turn an RST flood into an ACK flood.) I think this algorithm is written up in an RFC somewhere, but I forget the number. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 2 23:45:01 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:45:01 -0700 Subject: Shipping company moveit.com In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 02 Jan 2007 17:46:39 -0500. <3004771.1167778000016.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: We'll see how well they did tomorrow. I purchased several lots through dovebid; two could be packed and send ground with no problem and one needed freight. So I filled out two shipping quotes. They ended up i) combining the two quotes into a single shipment without bothering to mention this to me, ii) didn't pay attention when merging the orders and used my home address as the freight shipping address, iii) every time I deal with them, its a different person and they don't seem to know anything about my order or what state it is in, iv) when I explicitly asked them on the phone how I was going to pay for this, I got some sort of mumble "we'll deal with that later" answer. I asked for a quote based on pessimistic (i.e. overly large and overly heavy) estimates on the equipment and *presto* the final order is exactly what their estimate based on my pessimistic measurements said. Then they send me a bunch of digitized fax paperwork asking me to apply for a "line of credit" with them without me asking for any such thing. Each step of the process was from a different email address/person at this company, making each attempt to contact me look like spam to spam filters. So overall it feels like they are incompetent. They mismashed two separate orders together without telling me and half-assed combined them together, without paying any attention to what they were doing. I had the freight carrier call me today saying "so we're delivering to {my home address}, right?" and me having to correct them *after* I already told moveit.com about the error and they informed me they would correct the problem and update the freight company. This clearlyd id not happen. Then they email me saying "the freight company has been trying to contact you, is XXX-XXXX the right phone number?" without bothering to give me the name of the freight company or any way to contact them until I ask for it. Now I realize that noone is perfect and everyone has bad days, but they have made mistakes along every step of the way here, and as near as I can tell all the mistakes were made by different people. It feels like they just assume they'll get dovebid business and don't have to bother doing a good job. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 2 23:46:01 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:46:01 -0700 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage Message-ID: Owner's manual has a date of 1997... Someone is giving one of these to me with 4 CPUs. What should I do with it? Its got no graphics, but I figure I could make it compute arbitrary precision deep Mandelbrot set zooms. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 3 00:18:23 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:18:23 -0800 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca>, <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> <459A4101.5608.53C6A27@cclist.sydex.com> <459B3000.79C72EDC@cs.ubc.ca> <459B3394.6010202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <459B4AA3.DC016D9B@cs.ubc.ca> woodelf wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > And whats up with this mention of LCD displays? I didn't think there was > > anything practical available that early, or that was going to stand up to the > > rigours of space-flight - I have a calc with one of the first commercial LCDs > > (1972) and it's still kind of rudimentary - slow, poor contrast, temperature sensitive... > > Doing a bit of googling on the AGC, I found that it uses electroluminescent displays. Yes, I'm finding those references as well. Although it seems quite early for electroluminescent displays too, don't know of anything else that was using them at that time, esp. in 7-seg form. From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 3 00:24:06 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:24:06 -0900 Subject: altair 680 tapes In-Reply-To: <000001c72ee8$2f45ea70$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102211425.038b5eb8@pop.1and1.com> Posted for comment, started off list: I have about 3-4 recordings of the tape. As well as a "reproduction" of the tape. I lifted the "transmit" leg on the serial chip so that it wasn't in the socket. Then I put a jumper from the receive pin to the transmit hole. While playing the tape into the Altair I recorded the remodulated data into the computer and made a note if there were no checksum errors. As the tape was being demodulated the KCACR was remodulating the data at the same time. I have never been able to get a computer recorded file to load into the Altair. This may be caused from a lack of audio amplitude? I was surprised that the KCS.EXE utility only found 3 errors in the cassette tape wav file but found 11,000 errors with the remodulated WAV file. There was a slight DC offset and a background hum (not 60hz) I'm STILL trying to figure out why I have a few 13 minute long and a few 10 minute long recordings of the SAME TAPE!!!! Once I am through with this process I will make a tutorial. I'll also offer to recover other people's tapes. I LOVE time capsules! : ) Grant >If you haven't done so already, back up your tapes to .wav files right >away! > >Just plug your cassette player into your PC and do some high quality >mono recordings (8bits @ 22050 samples/sec). Avoid MP3 because of lossy >compression. > >Look here: http://www.netbay.com.au/~dxforth/ if you want to >post-process the .wav files, but it's even easier to just feed the audio >back and forth via your sound card. > >Once you have the digital data, you can always recreate the tapes but if >you lose the tapes, that's it. > >Jack From adamg at pobox.com Tue Jan 2 14:07:36 2007 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 15:07:36 -0500 Subject: Archive your Apple floppies at the W6TRW swap meet, January 2007 Message-ID: <20070102200735.GA72439@silme.pair.com> ARCHIVE YOUR APPLE FLOPPIES AT THE W6TRW SWAP MEET, JANUARY 2007 Even if your Apple IIe is long gone, you'll soon have a chance to get at your old data again, when Device Side Data (www.deviceside.com) holds the second public demonstration of a new USB floppy interface. USB floppy drives are widely available, but those currently on the market only support 3.5" disks. The new interface, due to be released later this year, connects to 5.25" drives. It will also allow the owners of modern computers to read a variety of old disk formats that ordinary floppy controllers no longer support. The demo will take place on Saturday, January 27th, 2007, at the famous W6TRW swap meet in Redondo Beach, California. Attendees are invited to bring along a few disks and have image copies made. The final product will read many disk formats, but the prototype only reads Apple II disks, so please leave your IBM or CP/M floppies at home for now. The W6TRW swap meet runs from 7 AM to 11:30 AM in the Northrop Grumman parking lot near the intersection of Aviation and Marine in Redondo Beach. There is no fee to attend. Once there, look for the spinning disk in row C. Besides Device Side Data, many other vendors will also be present, with a wide range of equipment for sale. This is an outdoor event and will proceed regardless of weather. Please carry your disks in waterproof bags in case of rain. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jan 2 14:50:45 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 20:50:45 +0000 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070101112442.0d6eb380@localhost> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> <45982A14.5070302@shiresoft.com> <4597E9B0.23322.59FCD56@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070101112442.0d6eb380@localhost> Message-ID: <459AC5A5.2090100@gjcp.net> Tom Peters wrote: > A firmware upgrade fixed some of it. Policy fixed the rest: Thou shalt > set the speed and duplex we tell you to on your PC, or we'll disable > your port. No Auto/Auto permitted. Better gear and Corporate Standard > NICs eliminated the problem after a while. Alvarion stuff is bad for this, particularly when used in conjunction with Cisco switches. The most recent Cisco firmware just makes the problem worse, because if you specify the speed and duplex settings on the switch, it will fall back to auto/auto if it loses its connection. Like, for instance, when you reboot the wireless bridge... Gordon (still gearing up to bomb Tel Aviv until Alvarion sort out their stupid software) From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jan 2 14:56:19 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 20:56:19 +0000 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <459AC6F3.2060601@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The maddening thing is that there's a local wireless net provider > here with excellent pricing. I can see their transmitter tower two > hills over from my window, but they nothing pointing in my direction > nor do they plan to. And cable doesn't exist out here in the > boonies. Rent a spot on the tower, and provide your own feed. How far a path is it? A couple of Orthogon Geminis will give you near-LOS connections up to around 20Mbps, for somewhere in the region of $6000. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jan 2 18:34:09 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 00:34:09 +0000 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <20070103001549.48467.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070103001549.48467.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <459AFA01.7050304@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: > Oi what a bunch of hoserz! Enough about P2s and P3s > littering the sidewalk...Got relevance???. You got and > older Mac in yer hands so play with it! Try YDL like I > said > > http://yellowdog.open-mirror.com/index2.php?pwd=.%2F%2Fyellowdog-2.3 > > There are some older versions there. Some of the later > version have the 2.6.? kernel. Apparently there's a > version YDL for the Sony PS3 too. > Sheesh what would you say if he had found a IIfx or > whatever. Oh pyew, it's a hassle...it's slow...it > takes weird ram. It's old, it's fun, so stifle it! > We're not talking about ancient history, but I > remember the cd cubes/stacks that you used to be able > to buy from Compusa and others. Loads and loads of > shareware. Lost mine :(. Right around the time of the > inception of the PPC based Macs. Oi. Is this some sort of code? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jan 2 18:39:26 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 00:39:26 +0000 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <000001c72ecd$2ecabb40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000001c72ecd$2ecabb40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <459AFB3E.1090308@gjcp.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> Ridiculous? Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy.. > > This thread has been entertaining, albeit OT, but "Jew don't want to go..." > is not funny and I find it a bit offensive. Why's that then? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jan 2 19:38:10 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 01:38:10 +0000 Subject: Old Mac music software Message-ID: <459B0902.2000103@gjcp.net> Sort of off-topic(-ish) but I'm looking for some midi sequencing software to run on my Powerbook 180. Actually, since they came out in about '92 I think they might well be on-topic. Most of the synths I want to connect are older than that. Anybody got any thoughts on this? I tried Midigraphy but couldn't really get my head around it. Gordon. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 3 01:04:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 23:04:44 -0800 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <459B4AA3.DC016D9B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459B4AA3.DC016D9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <459AE50C.13780.B7C77E@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2007 at 22:18, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Yes, I'm finding those references as well. Although it seems quite early for > electroluminescent displays too, don't know of anything else that was using > them at that time, esp. in 7-seg form. I recall a Popular Science (IIRC) article of around that same time gushing about how EL was going to revolutionize the world and one of the applications shown was a large 7 segment display. Work with EL generated quite a bit of interest back in the 60's, including light amplification for radiography (make a sandwich of dots of EL cells with CdS photoresistors and apply an AC voltage. The dark cells will tend to stay dark, while those that fluoresce under bombardment will form a feedback loop.) Reminds me of making a code practice oscillator by sandwiching a carbon mic with an earphone. I don't know if the technology ever made it to prime time. So that it used EL doesn't surprise me. The only other alternatives (incandescent, plasma, mechanical) were probably too power-hungry and/or fragile. Cheers, Chuck From wizard at voyager.net Wed Jan 3 01:31:25 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 02:31:25 -0500 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <000001c72ecd$2ecabb40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000001c72ecd$2ecabb40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <1167809485.13407.53.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 19:21 -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> Ridiculous? Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy.. > > This thread has been entertaining, albeit OT, but "Jew > don't want to go..." is not funny and I find it a bit > offensive. What a waste... too bad it wasn't a troll, as it would have been successful. I am assuming, here, that you are referring to the word "Jew," as in a person of the Jewish faith. I'll ignore for the moment such things as my lifetime membership in Sigma Alpha Mu, etc., which gives me license to tell any Jewish jokes I wish. The major issue here is that "Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy" is my attempt to phoneticize the "Brazilian Fighting Cockatoo's" accent from the clip I quoted. Personally, I think it is a fine job. Further, I find the clip to be hilarious. YMMV. Neither the clip, nor my use of it, have anything whatsoever to do with Jews, in either a positive or negative manner, other than the accidental positioning in a string on Kosher appliances. Actually, if you weren't overly sensitive on this subject, as indicated by your false positive, the "DERE" should have been a strong clue, as should my signature phrase, "Ay, ay, ay," and signature of Manny Cockatoo, all taken from the clip -- which I assume you failed to view prior to complaining. To lose the accent, what is being said is "You don't want to go THERE, puppy," which seems pale and lackluster compared to the way the cockatoo (and I) put it. Again, YMMV. Unsolicited advice: lighten up. Oh, and in case I am once more offering unintended offense, "cockatoo" has nothing to do with male genitalia, "troll" is a word from the fishing vernacular meaning to fish for an over-reaction, as opposed to an insulting term for little people, and "success" is not a reference to a sex act. That's all I can think of to pre-explain. Let me know if I missed any potentially offensive references. Furthermore, if you are NOT complaining about my use of the word "Jew," and your perceived insults to either Hebrew or Jewish people, you will have to clearly state the exact reason for your perceived offense. I'm not seeing it. Thank you for taking the time to over-react to nothing. That, and any other humorous input you might have, is greatly appreciated. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 3 01:31:37 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 02:31:37 -0500 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7DF12D22-F3D6-447B-A46C-AE15216FE8AC@neurotica.com> On Jan 3, 2007, at 12:46 AM, Richard wrote: > Owner's manual has a date of 1997... Unreal. I know of dozens of these in production. This "10 year" rule really just doesn't fit sometimes. > Someone is giving one of these to me with 4 CPUs. What CPUs? > What should I do with it? Its got no graphics, E450s were primarily designed to be servers, not workstations. But I know a guy (ahem Doc!) who has a very tasty workstation-config E450, rather drool-worthy. Depending on your network setup, I'd use it as a centralized server. Mail, spam filtering, NFS (or samba if you're still running legacy Windows systems), etc. > but I figure I could make it compute > arbitrary precision deep Mandelbrot set zooms. Bad idea. SPARCs, even the later UltraSPARCs, don't do very well in the floating point department. But...if you could code up an integer-based routine it'd scream. The dynamic range of the numbers required in these calculations is very, very small. One thing that comes to mind is that Ciarcia did a nice integer implementation years ago, to run on 8051 microcontrollers. I've looked at that project in some detail but haven't built one...yet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 3 02:18:21 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 23:18:21 -0900 Subject: MITS Altair 680 KCACR Cassette BASIC Recovered Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102231444.038e9228@pop.1and1.com> I thought I would post this for the search engines to latch a hold onto. It appears that my 20k post including the Cassette Basic source was killed. If you want the authentic S record listing of MITS Altair 680 KCACR Basic then send me an e-mail... If you mentioned that you wanted it, please e-mail me off list again. I may forget! I am in the process of setting up a web page on the 680, so I'll put the information there when I'm ready. If someone is interested in helping me "figure out" what is on the leader and footer of the tape, please request the original files. I have two. One 8bit ASCII and another forced to 7bit. This one attached has been forced to 7bit ASCII. Both files WILL load into the Altair without issue. It seems random which bytes had the 8th bit set and which didn't. Also, there is what appears to be garbage after the S0 record. I have no idea why. The tape has a bunch of 7Fs, then S0 and a bunch of garbage, and then 00s. At the end there is some garbage too. The KCACR ROM appears to ignore it. I've found this file reliably loads at 9600bps. It takes 21 seconds to load into a 680. .J 0000 MEMORY SIZE? TERMINAL WIDTH? 80 WANT SIN-COS-TAN-ATN? YES 9604 BYTES FREE MITS ALTAIR 680 BASIC VERSION 1.1 REV 3.2 --KCACR-- COPYRIGHT 1976 BY MITS INC. OK ------------------------------------------ S10400F3FF09 S11300000D7600F37E1A4F7E034A00004838002C18 S113001000000000000000000000000000000000DC S113002000000000000000000000000000000000CC S113003000000000000000000000000000000000BC S113004000000000000000000000000000000000AC S1130050000000000000000000000000000000009C S1130060000000000000000000000000000000008C S1130070000000000000000000000000000000007C S1130080000000000000000000000000000000006C S1130090000000000000000000000000000000005C S11300A0000000000000000000000000000000004C S11300B00000000000000000000000000000007CC0 S11300C000C926037C00C8B6EA60813A240881206E S11300D027ED803080D039FFEA607E03D500000030 S113010000000000000000000000000000804FC755 S113011052007E1A4F0CF10E6015E6165A16000DA9 S1130120710E410E6C18521932142818BE19681930 S11301306E19B419F811BC10D50F1D117910F510F2 ... Blah hlah blah, ask me for more... From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 3 02:20:40 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 23:20:40 -0900 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: References: <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102222341.039353f8@pop.1and1.com> >>> It's extremely cool. What's with you and the x-rays lately? Did After I scanned the IIe motherboard and people liked it, I did a few more. When you have access to this equipement its easy to not appreciate it. ; ) >>>you score an x-ray machine somewhere recently? (I ask out of >>>jealousy...I'd love a small x-ray setup [and the knowledge to use it] >>>for soldering BGA components). X-rays really won't help too much for soldering BGA devices. With x-rays you can't tell the difference between 2 pieces of .25" steel stacked on each other or 1 piece of .5" steel when x-raying through the thickness. >>He said in an earlier message, that it was at his place of >>employment. :) > > Oh, duh. I missed that somehow. :-/ Although I did these at work on Saturday, it was for my own entertainment. ; ) If they were to pay me to do x-rays it would probably be of a customer's sample. ; ) >>He's aparently not as crazy as I am to have some x-ray gear at home >>(then again, I've never used it partly because I don't know enough >>about >>dosages to determine what's safe, and how much to use to expose film >>properly, etc). > > What type of equipment do you have, if you don't mind my asking? We manufacture a line of high resolution digital x-ray equipment. The system I used is called the EnvisionScan NP (for no parallax). Grant From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jan 3 06:54:03 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 09:54:03 -0300 Subject: My first Mac References: <459A8900.4040606@bitsavers.org>, <459A3E6F.15935.5325DDC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <05f201c72f36$ad2e7170$f0fea8c0@alpha> > The local recycler is selling complete beige G3's for $25 the each: > http://www.lanecrrc.org/sales/ > I'd have to figure out what to do with one, however. Holy God! An HP 8100 for $100?! What the hell am I still doing in Brazil??? :oP Buaaaaaaaaaaa From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 06:02:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 06:02:09 -0600 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102222341.039353f8@pop.1and1.com> References: <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20070102222341.039353f8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <459B9B41.30906@yahoo.co.uk> Grant Stockly wrote: > >>>> It's extremely cool. What's with you and the x-rays lately? Did > > After I scanned the IIe motherboard and people liked it, I did a few > more. When you have access to this equipement its easy to not > appreciate it. ; ) A stop-motion X-rayed animation of a drive actually "running" would be rather cool (I presume there's no hope of the electronics actually operating whilst being x-rayed? [1]) [1] I am not a physicist... cheers Jules From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jan 3 07:08:16 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:08:16 -0300 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 - Done! References: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> <4599D1FD.8040400@brutman.com><200701020452.XAA21461@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <459B193E.2010405@brutman.com> Message-ID: <063201c72f38$d45b5d60$f0fea8c0@alpha> > At some point when it is a little more polished and tested I'll put a web > page up and release it to the universe. There are a handful of TCP/IP > stacks out there already, but I think mine is going to be the fastest by a > pretty wide margin. Mike, the RTL8019 is a very friendly chip for 8 bits, even being used into a 16-bit card. Almost all embeeded systems uses the 8019 as the ethernet interface. Take a look at the packet whacker in www.edtp.com If you want to skip programming and have a independent tcp stack, you can also take a good look in the wizchip series of chips and modules. They have 10/100 modules with internal tcp stack and even a wireless one! I used them in my last project. Very friendly to use. Congratulations for a great job! So bad I've never ever touched one PCJr. But my first colour CGA monitor was taken from one :D Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 06:12:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 06:12:24 -0600 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459B9DA8.90803@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > Owner's manual has a date of 1997... > > Someone is giving one of these to me with 4 CPUs. What should I do > with it? Its got no graphics, but I figure I could make it compute > arbitrary precision deep Mandelbrot set zooms. Hmmm, as Dave says, they're really suited to server type apps with lots of integer math. I believe there's a few coming up for disposal locally (UK-side) fairly soon as the support contracts run out (and the renewal expense isn't justified). I can't think of a good reason for having them, though [1]. [1] Although the bulk of the A3000/A1000 storage units which "belong" with one of our E6500 machines were kept back to be used with these, so I should find out what's happening about those purely in order to reunite them with their original machine. cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 3 07:54:28 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 07:54:28 -0600 Subject: [OT] Network question In-Reply-To: <459AC6F3.2060601@gjcp.net> References: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> <459AC6F3.2060601@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070103075043.07f6f610@mail> At 02:56 PM 1/2/2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>The maddening thing is that there's a local wireless net provider here with excellent pricing. I can see their transmitter tower two hills over from my window, but they nothing pointing in my direction nor do they plan to. And cable doesn't exist out here in the boonies. > >Rent a spot on the tower, and provide your own feed. How far a path is it? A couple of Orthogon Geminis will give you near-LOS connections up to around 20Mbps, for somewhere in the region of $6000. And far cheaper WiFi equipment could match the speed of the residential Internet connection you'd likely want to pay for. (Maybe $600 total: two each of Senao bridges, 29 dB mesh antenna, cables would reach 4-5 miles.) The easiest and cheapest route is to ask the ISP how many subscribers they'd need to have in your direction before they'd consider adding more equipment. Then go find those customers for them. - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 2 08:34:19 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 08:34:19 -0600 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage References: Message-ID: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So no, it's not officially vintage ;) Jay From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 09:06:10 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:06:10 -0500 Subject: Old Mac music software In-Reply-To: <459B0902.2000103@gjcp.net> References: <459B0902.2000103@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4affc5e0701030706m61e8d374k85e8b20c2c0fa02f@mail.gmail.com> On 1/2/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Sort of off-topic(-ish) but I'm looking for some midi sequencing > software to run on my Powerbook 180. Actually, since they came out in > about '92 I think they might well be on-topic. Most of the synths I > want to connect are older than that. > > Anybody got any thoughts on this? I tried Midigraphy but couldn't > really get my head around it. I have an original copy (disk&manual) of Opcode EZ-vision - this program is an "entry-level" MIDI sequencer that worked fine on my Plus (IIRC) and I did fire it up on my SE30 and played around with it for a minute or two. I also have a disk with a program called "Trax" but I honestly can't remember much about it (time to boot up the SE30 again, I guess...) You can have those programs if you're keen on them. We can bring this discussion really on topic by ranting about music (and esp. MIDI sequencing) software from the old days - even merge this with a wholly different topic that that is just now fading 'round here: Let's face it, early MIDI software sucked - and hooray for hi-res full-color displays. Maybe things were better on the Atari ST side, but all I ever used (Amiga-based) was either too simplistic to be useful, or too complicated (at least to me (*)) to "just do stuff". I have a copy (also original, with manual) of KCS Level II for Amiga, and never figured out how to really use it properly. (*) This may be due to the fact that I mostly used Trackers before leaping into MIDI. OctaMED is a heck of a great program, and a good enough reason to keep my Amiga up and running. I bought KCS and built myself a MIDI interface to join the MIDI crowd... in the end I did all my MIDI sequencing with OctaMED. Also very painful, but at least a more familiar kind of painful :-) Joe. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 3 09:59:27 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 07:59:27 -0800 Subject: altair 680 tapes In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102211425.038b5eb8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: >From: Grant Stockly ----snip----> >I have never been able to get a computer recorded file to load into the >Altair. This may be caused from a lack of audio amplitude? I was >surprised that the KCS.EXE utility only found 3 errors in the cassette tape >wav file but found 11,000 errors with the remodulated WAV file. There was >a slight DC offset and a background hum (not 60hz) > ---snip--- Hi There is usually some compensation circuits that are intended to correct for the phase shift of frequencies caused by the tape recorder. Without feeding it through a tape recorder, you are not adding this additional phase error. Most of these early machines did simple zero crossing type detectors. This means that the phase of the harmonics of the signal going to the tape are important, since they effect the timing of the zero cross. For the most part, harmonic phase is not that important to our ears since we are most sensitive to spectral content and less so to phase. To a zero cross detector, it is more important. This phase shift is caused by the fact that the tape head only redords by the trailing edge of the head gap while the playback is from the entire width of the head gap. This causes both a high frequency rolloff and a phase shift. From an audio perspective, they use pre-emphasis and de-emphasis circuits to compensate for the gain. The problem is that some phase error is always left. It is the high frequency content that creates the sharp edge at the front of a square wave. Move the high frequency part around and it doesn't look too square anymore. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ From labomb_s at yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 10:00:51 2007 From: labomb_s at yahoo.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:00:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: MITS Altair 680 KCACR Cassette BASIC Recovered Message-ID: <20070103160055.36598.qmail@web50714.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Grant, >One 8bit ASCII and another forced to 7bit. This one attached has >been forced to 7bit ASCII. Both files WILL load into the Altair without >issue. The tapes are comprised of recorded ascii data (s-record format) ...so if you are just reading the data as is (vs. loading the data via a s-record loader) then you should probably get the same thing regardless if you use 7 or 8 bits. >It seems random which bytes had the 8th bit set and which >didn't. I assume that you are referring to the data in memory as a result of the ROM tape loader execution? If so, you will note that Basic has bit 8 set on many ascii text elements within the source. Microsoft Basic used the high bit set in the keyword tables for the code that searched the keyword tables. They also often used the high bit to determine the last character of message strings. > Also, there is what appears to be garbage after the S0 record. I >have no idea why. The tape has a bunch of 7Fs, then S0 and a bunch of >garbage, and then 00s. At the end there is some garbage too. The KCACR >ROM appears to ignore it. It appears that the tape is similar to the MITS Absolute Tape Load format. I'm guessing that your format is as follows: First ... Pre-leader - comprised of a series of bytes that represent the length of the tape checksum loader. For example, a series of 7F bytes would mean that the checksum loader is 127 bytes long. Second... S-record header record (S0) Third... Checksum loader - intended for those who do not have the kacr ROM. It should be 127 bytes in in your example. Forth... Tape leader - a series of nulls Forth... The actual code. There may be some garbage bytes appended, depending on how MITS dumped the tape (specifically, how long the address range specified to dump was). Fifth... Trailer - a series of nulls This is similar to the typical format used for MITS tapes (both paper and cassette based). Scott __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 10:19:36 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 09:19:36 -0700 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 02 Jan 2007 08:34:19 -0600. <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So no, > it's not officially vintage ;) You and your crazy rules! ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 3 10:37:29 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 09:37:29 -0700 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459BDBC9.8000602@e-bbes.com> Richard wrote: > In article <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, > "Jay West" writes: > >> Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So no, >> it's not officially vintage ;) > > You and your crazy rules! ;-) I thought it is 20 years anyway ;-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 3 12:12:23 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:12:23 -0700 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So > no, it's not officially vintage ;) I just what to know if the MAC is vintage if contains a 68000? From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Wed Jan 3 12:19:01 2007 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:19:01 -0600 Subject: Anyone else here do AS/400? Message-ID: <001b01c72f63$a4b8c9f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I'm not entirely sure if this is off topic yet(hence why I put it on cctalk), but I know on a hobbyist level it's fairly rare. On Saturday I'll be picking up an AS/400 model 9406-600 originally purchased September 1997 with all the software and docs, licences etc that were ever used with the machine, from the original owner. I've contacted IBM and arranged license transfer (there was thankfully no charge) Does anyone else here deal with AS/400, or have a lingering interest in it? Secondly, I'm thinking of connecting a classic IBM terminal to it such as a 5251 S/34 term instead of the one that comes with it (something fairly modern, not sure of the model yet) I am curious; are any limitations on what I can connect, or are all twinax terminals pretty equal from a connectivity standpoint? From wizard at voyager.net Wed Jan 3 12:32:58 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 13:32:58 -0500 Subject: Old Mac music software In-Reply-To: <459B0902.2000103@gjcp.net> References: <459B0902.2000103@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1167849178.11480.26.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 01:38 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Sort of off-topic(-ish) but I'm looking for some midi sequencing > software to run on my Powerbook 180. Actually, since they came out in > about '92 I think they might well be on-topic. Most of the synths I > want to connect are older than that. > > Anybody got any thoughts on this? I tried Midigraphy but couldn't > really get my head around it. I have a PC copy of Texture. If you can find a Mac executable, I can arrange a copy of the manual for you. I understand they are essentially identical in operation -- although I've never used the Mac version. That's the best *I* can do. Good luck! Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 12:30:51 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:30:51 -0700 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? Message-ID: I just received my first SGI "iron" -- an Onyx Reality Engine 2 250 MHz. However, the power connector is not your standard style of connector. It has three prongs, arranged horizontally: ---- ---- ---- I'm guessing that this implies it needs more than the rated 15A for a standard outlet. Any ideas where I can obtain the correct cord? Searching for "power cord" on the net just returns too many hits... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 12:56:45 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:56:45 -0700 Subject: my vintage Christmas present Message-ID: Back in the early 90s, I rescued some equipment from work that was being discarded. This is where I got my ESV/50 and my ARS (Advanced Rendering System) and other E&S bits. At some later time, a former E&S coworker really wanted a board out of the ARS as a keepsake because he worked on it. Since I had not powered up/connected my ARS to my ESV even once and I wasn't yet totally smitten by the "collecting bug", I sent him the board. Since then I have regretted that a little bit because this board wasn't optional in the ARS, there is only one of these boards as it houses the main processor array. However, I also rescued some equipment that I gave to another former E&S coworker. As time went by, he decided that he wanted to get rid of his equipment and asked me if I wanted it. Since E&S equipment is as rare as hen's teeth, I immediately said yes. Well, we went over after Christmas on a sunny Saturday afternoon and picked up the gear. He had an ESV/10 Workstation (a smaller version of my ESV/50), a Freedom 3000 accelerator and an ARS! Now the ARS is probably the biggest baddest piece of iron that the Workstation Division of Evans & Sutherland ever produced. Its a fairly large box, about the size of a deskside SGI Onyx if you're familiar with that. Except its not a whole computer, its just a peripheral! Its whole purpose is to render photorealistic images at full screen resolution in just a few seconds. It has hardware antialiasing, hardware texture mapping, environment mapping and reflection mapping. In the late 80s/early 90s this was pretty hot shit although now you can get it on a cheapo $100 graphics card for your PC. (To many of you, this will be a familiar refrain!) Now that I have a 2nd ARS, I can get one back in working condition. Its a rather unique beasty, considering that only one piece of software (CDRS, the "Conceptual Design and Rendering System") ever supported the ARS. The primary customers of CDRS were car companies doing auto body design. Therefore you had to do high quality renderings that showed how the reflections and gloss would look on the painted car body in order to satisfy the customer. Customers for CDRS were a "who's who" of the car industry at the time: Ford, Chrysler, Daimler-Benz, Harley-Davidson, Renault and I'm sure some others I'm forgetting. If I get the ARS back in working order, then its quite possible that I will have the only working ARS on the planet, unless there are still some kicking around the automotive companies. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 12:59:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:59:15 -0700 Subject: Anyone else here do AS/400? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:19:01 -0600. <001b01c72f63$a4b8c9f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: In article <001b01c72f63$a4b8c9f0$920718ac at CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, "Wolfe, Julian " writes: > Does anyone else here deal with AS/400, or have a lingering interest in it? I've never used one, but as I pursue terminals I notice that the IBM terminals with the coax style connector always seem to mention AS/400 machines in conjunction with the terminals. Was this a typical configuration for things like the 3279, 3180, etc. terminals? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 3 13:19:12 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:19:12 -0500 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <1167809485.13407.53.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <002d01c72f6c$0d575870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> My objection isn't to the actual word "Jew" but to your casual use of it to replace "You" for no good reason. Yes, political correctness has gone too far, and a little counter-push is healthy. But that doesn't give everyone a blank check to be an insensitive jerk. I don't care if you are also Jewish or not -- as the reader I've got no way of knowing and it still wasn't even funny. >>> Unsolicited advice: lighten up ... I'm not seeing it. You idiot. -----Original Message----- From: Warren Wolfe [mailto:wizard at voyager.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 2:31 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Kosher stove and fridge On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 19:21 -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> Ridiculous? Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy.. > > This thread has been entertaining, albeit OT, but "Jew don't want to > go..." is not funny and I find it a bit offensive. What a waste... too bad it wasn't a troll, as it would have been successful. I am assuming, here, that you are referring to the word "Jew," as in a person of the Jewish faith. I'll ignore for the moment such things as my lifetime membership in Sigma Alpha Mu, etc., which gives me license to tell any Jewish jokes I wish. The major issue here is that "Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy" is my attempt to phoneticize the "Brazilian Fighting Cockatoo's" accent from the clip I quoted. Personally, I think it is a fine job. Further, I find the clip to be hilarious. YMMV. Neither the clip, nor my use of it, have anything whatsoever to do with Jews, in either a positive or negative manner, other than the accidental positioning in a string on Kosher appliances. Actually, if you weren't overly sensitive on this subject, as indicated by your false positive, the "DERE" should have been a strong clue, as should my signature phrase, "Ay, ay, ay," and signature of Manny Cockatoo, all taken from the clip -- which I assume you failed to view prior to complaining. To lose the accent, what is being said is "You don't want to go THERE, puppy," which seems pale and lackluster compared to the way the cockatoo (and I) put it. Again, YMMV. Unsolicited advice: lighten up. Oh, and in case I am once more offering unintended offense, "cockatoo" has nothing to do with male genitalia, "troll" is a word from the fishing vernacular meaning to fish for an over-reaction, as opposed to an insulting term for little people, and "success" is not a reference to a sex act. That's all I can think of to pre-explain. Let me know if I missed any potentially offensive references. Furthermore, if you are NOT complaining about my use of the word "Jew," and your perceived insults to either Hebrew or Jewish people, you will have to clearly state the exact reason for your perceived offense. I'm not seeing it. Thank you for taking the time to over-react to nothing. That, and any other humorous input you might have, is greatly appreciated. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jan 3 13:23:16 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:23:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <002d01c72f6c$0d575870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <002d01c72f6c$0d575870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200701031932.OAA21222@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > My objection isn't to the actual word "Jew" but to your casual use of > it to replace "You" How else would you spell that pronunciation distortion of "you"? > for no good reason. Judgement call. Phonetic respelling to allude to a particular character's line in a video strikes me as good enough reason; you apparently differ. I suppose this makes me an "idiot" too. So be it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 3 13:32:57 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:32:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Jan 03, 2007 11:12:23 AM Message-ID: <200701031932.l03JWvpN027310@onyx.spiritone.com> > Jay West wrote: > > Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So > > no, it's not officially vintage ;) > > I just what to know if the MAC is vintage if contains a 68000? Consider this, it's been nearly 10 years since a Mac containing a 68000 CPU was even able to run the current version of the operating system. I forget if support was dropped with System 7.6, or Mac OS 8.0. Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 13:45:19 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:45:19 -0500 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C07CF.909@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > I just received my first SGI "iron" -- an Onyx Reality Engine 2 250 > MHz. > > However, the power connector is not your standard style of connector. > It has three prongs, arranged horizontally: > > ---- > > ---- ---- > > I'm guessing that this implies it needs more than the rated 15A for a > standard outlet. Yeah. That's a 20A cord. (Or maybe 16A.) > Any ideas where I can obtain the correct cord? Searching for "power > cord" on the net just returns too many hits... That connector is an IEC C20. (Assuming you're in the USA,) You need a cord that goes from a NEMA 5-20P to an IEC C19. You can probably get away with getting a cord that goes from a NEMA 5-15P (regular 15A wall outlet) to an IEC C19. It probably won't give you any trouble, even though it's out of spec. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 3 13:46:29 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:46:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <200701031932.l03JWvpN027310@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jan 3, 7 11:32:57 am" Message-ID: <200701031946.l03JkTKr013638@floodgap.com> > > I just what to know if the MAC is vintage if contains a 68000? > > Consider this, it's been nearly 10 years since a Mac containing a 68000 CPU > was even able to run the current version of the operating system. I forget > if support was dropped with System 7.6, or Mac OS 8.0. 8.5. 8.0 dropped the '030 and prior, but an '040 could still run 8.0 and 8.1 officially, and an '030 could run them with some hacking. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Nobody Does It Better" from "The Spy Who Loved Me" From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 3 13:48:00 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:48:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <200701031932.l03JWvpN027310@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jan 3, 7 11:32:57 am" Message-ID: <200701031948.l03Jm0Si013706@floodgap.com> > > > Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So > > > no, it's not officially vintage ;) > > > > I just what to know if the MAC is vintage if contains a 68000? > > Consider this, it's been nearly 10 years since a Mac containing a 68000 CPU > was even able to run the current version of the operating system. I forget > if support was dropped with System 7.6, or Mac OS 8.0. Oh, wait, you said 68000. The 68000 and 68020 was supported through 7.5.x and dropped in 7.6, which required an '030. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why do we scoff at fortune tellers, yet listen to economists? -------------- From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 13:48:23 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:48:23 -0500 Subject: Anyone else here do AS/400? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C0887.1010306@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <001b01c72f63$a4b8c9f0$920718ac at CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, > "Wolfe, Julian " writes: > >> Does anyone else here deal with AS/400, or have a lingering interest in it? > > I've never used one, but as I pursue terminals I notice that the IBM > terminals with the coax style connector always seem to mention AS/400 > machines in conjunction with the terminals. > > Was this a typical configuration for things like the 3279, 3180, etc. > terminals? Nope. The coax terminals speak EBCDIC and are usually connected to mainframes. The terminals for AS/400 had Twinax connectors and (if memory serves) speak ASCII. Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 3 13:50:27 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:50:27 -0800 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? References: Message-ID: <459C0902.DFCE08B3@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > > I just received my first SGI "iron" -- an Onyx Reality Engine 2 250 > MHz. > > However, the power connector is not your standard style of connector. > It has three prongs, arranged horizontally: > > ---- > > ---- ---- > > I'm guessing that this implies it needs more than the rated 15A for a > standard outlet. > > Any ideas where I can obtain the correct cord? Searching for "power > cord" on the net just returns too many hits... It's probably IEC C19/20, to narrow it down a bit, does this look right?: http://www.bulgin.co.uk/Products/IEC_Connectors/IEC_Inlets-Conns_C19-C20.html However, there is/was another range of 120V/240V connectors for things like power tools, same general size as an ordinary plug but with different orientations of the three pins for different currents, and one of those orientations may match what you have. I'm not finding a reference online. Electrical wholesale stores typically have them and I think I've seen some of the variations at Home Depot. From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Jan 3 13:49:31 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:49:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <200701031932.OAA21222@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20070103194931.4A1C43EAF4@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by der Mouse > > > My objection isn't to the actual word "Jew" but to your casual use of > > it to replace "You" > > How else would you spell that pronunciation distortion of "you"? > chew? choo? > > for no good reason. > > Judgement call. Phonetic respelling to allude to a particular > character's line in a video strikes me as good enough reason; you > apparently differ. > The video by itself has nothing to do with kosher appliances, other then it has a refrigerator. Is the cockatoo supposed to be the "Sabbath switch"!? The video seems to be here because of how the bird pronounces "you", which in the context of the past thread causes it to be offensive... Cheers, Bryan From wizard at voyager.net Wed Jan 3 13:58:03 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:58:03 -0500 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <002d01c72f6c$0d575870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <002d01c72f6c$0d575870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <1167854283.17672.26.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 14:19 -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote: > My objection isn't to the actual word "Jew" but to your casual use of it to > replace "You" for no good reason. I'll try again. Have you ever heard a native speaker of Portuguese, especially the Brazilian variety, say "You" in English? It sounds EXACTLY like an English speaker saying "Jew." As I mentioned, I consider this a good reason. And, let me guess... You STILL haven't watched the clip. > Yes, political correctness has gone too far, and a little counter-push is > healthy. But that doesn't give everyone a blank check to be an insensitive > jerk. I don't care if you are also Jewish or not -- as the reader I've got > no way of knowing and it still wasn't even funny. > > >>> Unsolicited advice: lighten up ... I'm not seeing it. > > You idiot. Okay... So, tell me how I get my "blank check" to be an insensitive jerk. (Hey, YOU mixed the metaphor first...) You are obviously making good use of yours... and I'd hate to miss out. This is more verbose than my favorite idiot quote, which was "Use some tact, you fathead." You need to work on a more concise delivery. I've noticed that essentially every time someone gripes about some behavior on the part of others, correctly or incorrectly, they almost IMMEDIATELY exhibit that behavior on their own. So, why is it you complain about ME being an insensitive jerk (incorrectly, in this case) and then, in the very next paragraph you write, exhibit insensitive jerk behavior? Would you have felt better if I had written "Joo don't want to go DERE, puppy?" Is it the sound, or the spelling that has your knickers in a twist? (And, please do examine your answer for idiocy, as the potential for public humiliation is significant.) Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 3 14:00:13 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:00:13 -0500 Subject: VCF East 4.0 update -- Commodore Pet 30th bday party w/ Chuck Peddle Message-ID: <005101c72f71$c8231220$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hi all, Today, Sellam and I confirmed Chuck Peddle as the keynote speaker for VCF East 4.0. There will be other notable early Commodore computer people as well. Just as VCF 9.0 celebrated the 30th anniversary of Apple, at East 4.0 we'll do Commodore! The show is Saturday, June 9, starting at 9:30am. The Commodore panel will be from 10:30-12 followed by Chuck et al signing autographs. We still might expand the show to Sunday, June 10 as well. To be determined. Of course there will be plenty of other cool things and people beside Peddle. For example, we found a guy who worked closely with John Mauchly, and he might be a speaker for us. Talk about being one degree removed from history! - Evan From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 3 14:02:37 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:02:37 -0500 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <1167854283.17672.26.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <005501c72f72$1dc33ca0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> please do examine your answer for idiocy You've already used up the cctalk daily allowance. From wizard at voyager.net Wed Jan 3 14:03:25 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:03:25 -0500 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <200701031932.OAA21222@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <002d01c72f6c$0d575870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200701031932.OAA21222@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1167854605.17672.31.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 14:23 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > > My objection isn't to the actual word "Jew" but to your casual use of > > it to replace "You" > > How else would you spell that pronunciation distortion of "you"? Well, M. Mouse, I COULD have used "Joo," as I mentioned previously. I obviously over-estimated the media savvy of my audience, at least in SOME cases. My bad. > > for no good reason. > > Judgement call. Phonetic respelling to allude to a particular > character's line in a video strikes me as good enough reason; you > apparently differ. Yep. Time to get out the rope, and find a tree. > I suppose this makes me an "idiot" too. So be it. Hey, maybe we could start a club, and build a clubhouse... Nah. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Jan 3 14:05:04 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:05:04 -0600 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <005501c72f72$1dc33ca0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <002201c72f72$75d63be0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! Oops, sorry, thought I was at a gradeschool playground for a second there. My mistake. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 2:03 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Kosher stove and fridge > > >>> please do examine your answer for idiocy > > You've already used up the cctalk daily allowance. > > From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 3 14:18:37 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:18:37 -0900 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <459B9B41.30906@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102222341.039353f8@pop.1and1.com> <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20070102222341.039353f8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103111648.03480e08@pop.1and1.com> At 03:02 AM 1/3/2007, you wrote: >Grant Stockly wrote: >> >>>>> It's extremely cool. What's with you and the x-rays lately? Did >>After I scanned the IIe motherboard and people liked it, I did a few >>more. When you have access to this equipement its easy to not appreciate >>it. ; ) > >A stop-motion X-rayed animation of a drive actually "running" would be >rather cool (I presume there's no hope of the electronics actually >operating whilst being x-rayed? [1]) That's a good idea. I'll have to find an Apple II disk that makes the disk drive seek back and forth a lot. Electronics don't care if there are x-rays present when they are on any more than when they are off. They die at the same rate. : ) Grant From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 14:28:18 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:28:18 -0500 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103111648.03480e08@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20070102222341.039353f8@pop.1and1.com> <459B9B41.30906@yahoo.co.uk> <5.2.1.1.0.20070103111648.03480e08@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0701031228s71546a0dp27634b59d1d3b052@mail.gmail.com> On 1/3/07, Grant Stockly wrote: > Electronics don't care if there are x-rays present when they are on any > more than when they are off. They die at the same rate. : ) Actually, I've been wondering: What is the effect of x-rays on EPROMS? Joe. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 14:37:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:37:20 -0600 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <200701031932.l03JWvpN027310@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200701031932.l03JWvpN027310@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <459C1400.4080609@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Jay West wrote: >>> Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So >>> no, it's not officially vintage ;) >> I just what to know if the MAC is vintage if contains a 68000? > > Consider this, it's been nearly 10 years since a Mac containing a 68000 CPU > was even able to run the current version of the operating system. Surely the current version of the OS wasn't available ten years ago - unless all Macs included a time travel device, which may well have explained their high cost... ;-) From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Jan 3 12:46:23 2007 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:46:23 -0600 Subject: Anyone else here do AS/400? In-Reply-To: <001b01c72f63$a4b8c9f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <001b01c72f63$a4b8c9f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: I've long had an interest in AS400. Any leads on other systems being available in the Chicago area? thanks. -Bob >I'm not entirely sure if this is off topic yet(hence why I put it on >cctalk), but I know on a hobbyist level it's fairly rare. > >On Saturday I'll be picking up an AS/400 model 9406-600 originally purchased >September 1997 with all the software and docs, licences etc that were ever >used with the machine, from the original owner. I've contacted IBM and >arranged license transfer (there was thankfully no charge) > >Does anyone else here deal with AS/400, or have a lingering interest in it? > >Secondly, I'm thinking of connecting a classic IBM terminal to it such as a >5251 S/34 term instead of the one that comes with it (something fairly >modern, not sure of the model yet) I am curious; are any limitations on what >I can connect, or are all twinax terminals pretty equal from a connectivity >standpoint? -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 14:44:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:44:24 -0600 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C15A8.4050006@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, > "Jay West" writes: > >> Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So no, >> it's not officially vintage ;) > > You and your crazy rules! ;-) We need a page reachable through the classiccmp website which takes into account things like: age physical size production count / rarity operational noise level number of flashing lights case styling 'coolness' factor number of mouse nests / dead insects inside number of times system has inflicted injuries on the owner etc. ... and then makes a call as to whether it will be seen by the list at large as on-topic or not. ;-) From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 3 15:09:26 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 21:09:26 -0000 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C15A8.4050006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <000f01c72f7b$74b30280$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Jules Richardson wrote: > age > physical size > production count / rarity > operational noise level I pass all of those tests :-) > number of times system has inflicted injuries on the owner That seems reasonable - I'm sure we all agree every QBUS enclosure ever produced is on topic :-) :-) Antonio From brian at quarterbyte.com Wed Jan 3 15:16:58 2007 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 13:16:58 -0800 Subject: IBM 5100/5110 ROS (ROM) images? Message-ID: <459BACCA.1824.6BC81492@brian.quarterbyte.com> Has anyone extracted images of the Read Only Storage for the IBM 5100/5100 desktop computers? I haven't seen any mention of it anywhere, nor any simulators. Has anyone worked on this? Seems like it should be doable and worthwhile. Though, it might be necessary to build hardware to read out the ROS contents -- I don't think the 5100 provides programmatic access to the PALM object code for the 360 and S/3 emulators, just the BASIC and APL code. Does that sound right? Brian From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jan 3 15:17:33 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:17:33 -0500 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:28:18 EST." <4affc5e0701031228s71546a0dp27634b59d1d3b052@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200701032117.l03LHXsj027113@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Joachim Thiemann" wrote: > >Actually, I've been wondering: What is the effect of x-rays on EPROMS? I was always told it could flip bits. But that was older UV erasable types. I'd would be interested to know if that is really true... (I'm having a flash back to wrapping eproms in tin-foil when flying prototype game carts and coin-op games out to the west coast. probably just paranoid, but we did that) now days I just wear the tin-foil as a hat :-) -brad From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 15:20:02 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:20:02 -0500 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <000f01c72f7b$74b30280$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <000f01c72f7b$74b30280$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <459C1E02.1000407@gmail.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > That seems reasonable - I'm sure we all agree every QBUS enclosure > ever produced is on topic :-) :-) How long ago was the last of the VAX 4000 systems discontinued? I thought it wasn't that long. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 15:19:53 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:19:53 -0700 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:44:24 -0600. <459C15A8.4050006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <459C15A8.4050006 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > We need a page reachable through the classiccmp website which takes into > account things like: > > age > physical size > production count / rarity > operational noise level > number of flashing lights > case styling 'coolness' factor > number of mouse nests / dead insects inside > number of times system has inflicted injuries on the owner > etc. > > ... and then makes a call as to whether it will be seen by the list at large > as on-topic or not. By that metric, I think a majority of cctalk list traffic doesn't qualify! :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 15:18:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:18:12 -0700 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:50:27 -0800. <459C0902.DFCE08B3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article <459C0902.DFCE08B3 at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert writes: > It's probably IEC C19/20, to narrow it down a bit, does this look right?: I didn't look at that link, but a search of IEC C20 yielded a picture that looked exactly like what I see on the unit. Any other Onyx owners on the list? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 15:27:02 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:27:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C15A8.4050006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <683045.1310.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Richard wrote: > > In article > <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, > > "Jay West" writes: > > > >> Just because a computer is 10 years old does not > mean it's on topic. So no, > >> it's not officially vintage ;) > > > > You and your crazy rules! ;-) > > We need a page reachable through the classiccmp > website which takes into > account things like: > > age > physical size > production count / rarity > operational noise level > number of flashing lights > case styling 'coolness' factor > number of mouse nests / dead insects inside > number of times system has inflicted injuries on > the owner > etc. > > ... and then makes a call as to whether it will be > seen by the list at large > as on-topic or not. > > ;-) Uh no we don't. If Jay says it ain't, it ain't. Z. He's king here and his word prevails above all others. Let's not stage a coup or something creepy here. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 15:27:28 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:27:28 -0500 Subject: Mac pre-OS X versions and hardware support (was Re: Sun E450 server officially vintage) Message-ID: On 1/3/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I just what to know if the MAC is vintage if contains a 68000? > > > > Consider this, it's been nearly 10 years since a Mac containing a 68000 CPU > > was even able to run the current version of the operating system. I forget > > if support was dropped with System 7.6, or Mac OS 8.0. > > 8.5. 8.0 dropped the '030 and prior, but an '040 could still run 8.0 and 8.1 > officially, and an '030 could run them with some hacking. Was that due to instruction set differences? Stack frame differences? MMU differences? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 3 15:30:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 13:30:28 -0800 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C15A8.4050006@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <459C15A8.4050006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <459BAFF4.19008.F51E8B@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jan 2007 at 14:44, Jules Richardson wrote: > We need a page reachable through the classiccmp website which takes into > account things like: Well, there you go! Someone submits a system for consideration and list votes on it. You know, there's vintage and then there's vintage. That Mac 6100 that I picked up certainly qualifies as "vintage" by the 10-year rule, but as a sample of something,unique it's very [yawn!]. I find some of the PC-like things more interesting. Even my modem running Linux is more interesting. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 15:31:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:31:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <05f201c72f36$ad2e7170$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <870623.44982.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Right. So since Chuck has never had a compact Mac to play with, who's going to donate him one? I vote it has to be pre-ADB, to get the full look and feel experience. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 15:33:58 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:33:58 -0500 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <7DF12D22-F3D6-447B-A46C-AE15216FE8AC@neurotica.com> References: <7DF12D22-F3D6-447B-A46C-AE15216FE8AC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 1/3/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > E450s were primarily designed to be servers, not workstations. > But I know a guy (ahem Doc!) who has a very tasty workstation-config > E450, rather drool-worthy. I'm hoping to run across an E3000 (pedestal, FC-AL external, SCA internal drives, up to 8? CPUs in 4? trays...) sometime soon. I spec'ed and ordered one for Lucent in 1997 or 1998, so not quite on-topic, but I do know a few have surfaced for free/cheap recently. That's about the only Sun I'm trying to keep an eye out for that has a CPU enclosure larger than a 3U box. I also worked with some E5000s, but that's a lot more Sun than I need in my house. -ethan (whose present active Sun is a SPARC5/110) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 3 15:35:16 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:35:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mac pre-OS X versions and hardware support (was Re: Sun E450 server officially vintage) In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jan 3, 7 04:27:28 pm" Message-ID: <200701032135.l03LZHvo011348@floodgap.com> > > 8.5. 8.0 dropped the '030 and prior, but an '040 could still run 8.0 and 8.1 > > officially, and an '030 could run them with some hacking. > > Was that due to instruction set differences? Stack frame differences? > MMU differences? You mean, why the '030s weren't supported under 8.0/8.1? No idea. They would run just fine under 8.0/8.1, so it was clearly Apple's way of just killing the '030 Macs off, I guess. You used a tool like Wish I Were to fool it, and all that did was change the Gestalt ID, so there was nothing else specific about it. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- PowerPC inside! ------------------------------------------------------------ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 15:36:55 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:36:55 -0500 Subject: Anyone else here do AS/400? In-Reply-To: References: <001b01c72f63$a4b8c9f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On 1/3/07, Bob Brown wrote: > I've long had an interest in AS400. Any leads on other systems being > available in the Chicago area? It's not Chicago, but I'm in Columbus (6-7 hrs away) and probably won't do much with the smallish AS/400 I have once I get it to power up (still missing the twinax cable to the console terminal). I'd post model and specs, but it's not where I am at the moment. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 15:33:03 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:33:03 -0600 Subject: D-shell connector age? Message-ID: <459C210F.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> Anyone know where D-shell connectors first appeared on equipment? Interesting thread going on in a local group at the moment about why SCART [1] sockets are so horrible and nasty (prone to breaking pins, difficult to line up, prone to falling out etc.) and why something better, like a D-shell connector, wasn't chosen instead. Thing is, SCART was apparently first used in consumer A/V equipment in 1977, which probably means it was thought up in the mid-70's. Edge connectors and/or circular DIN connectors were probably more common on computer equipment of that time, but were D-shell types around by then too? [1] For the non-Europeans, SCART is common on all A/V equipment in Europe and provides component RGB (as well as composite) interconnect between devices, along with stereo audio channels, sync lines, remote device standby control etc. cheers Jules From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 15:42:33 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:42:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459BAFF4.19008.F51E8B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070103214233.78093.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jan 2007 at 14:44, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > We need a page reachable through the classiccmp > website which takes into > > account things like: > > Well, there you go! Someone submits a system for > consideration and > list votes on it. Bah. Then everything becomes vintage just cuz someone says so. There has to be an unimpeachable criteria - age. I say 20 YEARS! I have spoken. > You know, there's vintage and then there's vintage. > That Mac 6100 > that I picked up certainly qualifies as "vintage" by > the 10-year > rule, but as a sample of something,unique it's very > [yawn!]. The 10 year rule was revoked, probably too late in time also. With regards to the PM 6100, it depends on how you look at things (pertaining to interesting, not vintage). It was the first PPC based Mac. Yeah the slightly later ones were more expandable, more fun. But those were pretty exciting times. I can remember when the first COLOR Macs came out (now that's a vintage topic, or nearly :). It felt like the dawn of a new era. Why we loved those skeevy little b & w boxes so much I don't know LOL LOL. I find > some of the PC-like things more interesting. Even > my modem running > Linux is more interesting. I'd say anywhere up to the very first few 386's are vintage (grudgingly). We can always make the case for innovative, stylish, mod. But those are separate issues from deeming something vintage. If you start to blur the line all heck breaks loose. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 15:37:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:37:26 -0700 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 13:30:28 -0800. <459BAFF4.19008.F51E8B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <459BAFF4.19008.F51E8B at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Well, there you go! Someone submits a system for consideration and > list votes on it. I think that will just lead to lots of argument about what qualifies as a "vintage" system when instead you're really arguing about which vintage systems are "interesting". Very uninteresting machines become vintage simply because there are so few around anymore. Take a Beehive terminal for instance. There's absolutely nothing special about it and nothing "good" about it, particularly if you're the guy who had to keep them working in the 80s! But its certainly vintage and its certainly scarce. Then there's the VIC-20 and C=64. As common as dirt, but certainly interesting and also vintage. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 15:29:06 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:29:06 -0700 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 13:27:02 -0800. <683045.1310.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <683045.1310.qm at web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > Uh no we don't. If Jay says it ain't, it ain't. Not that being off-topic has ever stopped anyone before.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 3 15:47:00 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:47:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <000f01c72f7b$74b30280$5b01a8c0@uatempname> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Jan 03, 2007 09:09:26 PM Message-ID: <200701032147.l03Ll0bO030875@onyx.spiritone.com> > > number of times system has inflicted injuries on the owner > > That seems reasonable - I'm sure we all agree every QBUS enclosure > ever produced is on topic :-) :-) > > Antonio I don't believe I've ever been injured by a Q-Bus enclosure. You just need to be careful! :^) I can't remember loosing any skin, even on a BA23. Granted most of the time I've used a BA123. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 3 15:55:40 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:55:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C1400.4080609@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 03, 2007 02:37:20 PM Message-ID: <200701032155.l03Ltf1E031212@onyx.spiritone.com> > Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Jay West wrote: > >>> Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So > >>> no, it's not officially vintage ;) > >> I just what to know if the MAC is vintage if contains a 68000? > > > > Consider this, it's been nearly 10 years since a Mac containing a 68000 CPU > > was even able to run the current version of the operating system. > > Surely the current version of the OS wasn't available ten years ago - unless > all Macs included a time travel device, which may well have explained their > high cost... ;-) I meant what was current at that time. Actually as of January '97 I don't believe System 7.6 was out yet. Zane From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Jan 3 16:00:41 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:00:41 -0600 Subject: Mac OS vintage (was: Re: Sun E450 server officially vintage) In-Reply-To: <200701032124.l03LOLhx014791@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200701032124.l03LOLhx014791@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 15:24 -0600 1/3/07, Zane wrote: >Consider this, it's been nearly 10 years since a Mac containing a 68000 CPU >was even able to run the current version of the operating system. I forget >if support was dropped with System 7.6, or Mac OS 8.0. > > Zane To elaborate on what Cameron said: Last OS *my* 68000 Mac Plus has run is MacOS 7.1. MacTracker claims 7.5.5, I can't dispute that as I haven't tried it but I expect it might not do much good (no RAM left for applications). Same is claimed for the Mac SE and Classic and PowerBook 100. MacTracker doesn't report the Outbounds (Jeff?) but since (I think) they used motherboards from the above systems, I would be surprised if they ran later versions. I'm not aware of any later 68000 Macs (or indeed, any others excepting the 128k/512k/fat Mac series, none of which went to OS 7.x). If the question was whether 680x0 processors support OS 8, the answer to that should be yes. Quadra 950 is claimed to run MacOS 8.1, as is PowerBook 540/c and others, again per MacTracker (which is a reasonably useful resource for these machines). The Mac OS category in the same program says the same thing, giving requirements as follows: 7.1 68000 or later, 2 MB RAM, 4 MB hard drive 7.5 68000 or later, 4 MB RAM, 21 MB hard drive 7.6 32-bit clean 68030 or later, 8 MB RAM, 40-120 MB hard drive 8.0/1 68040 or later, 12 MB RAM, 195 MB hard drive 8.5 PPC, 16 MB RAM, 150-250 MB hard drive 8.6 PPC, 24 MB RAM, 190-250 MB hard drive Wow. Looking back, it's amazing how fast requirements shot up. I'm really glad I sort of sat out that period as far as buying computers. Our main home system was a Mac Plus until we leapfrogged to a Powerbook 3400 (which is still our current system). Nice to go from on-topic to brand-new machines - gives us a while to save up our computer-buying budget. FWIW, hit http://www.mactracker.ca/ if you want to grab the (freeware) program I'm looking at. Gotta love these guys, there's a version which runs on MacOS 8.5 still available, as well as one for (spit) Windows and (grin) *iPod*. Not affiliated. -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 3 16:01:36 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:01:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <200701032147.l03Ll0bO030875@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200701032147.l03Ll0bO030875@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > number of times system has inflicted injuries on the owner > > > > That seems reasonable - I'm sure we all agree every QBUS enclosure > > ever produced is on topic :-) :-) > > I don't believe I've ever been injured by a Q-Bus enclosure. You just need > to be careful! :^) I can't remember loosing any skin, even on a BA23. > Granted most of the time I've used a BA123. I've never used such a thing, but I have gashed my hand on the corner of a disused one. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 16:02:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:02:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <272619.29878.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > > In article <683045.1310.qm at web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, > Chris M writes: > > > Uh no we don't. If Jay says it ain't, it ain't. > > Not that being off-topic has ever stopped anyone > before.... True, but by legitimizing it you're invalidating the list's mission. I hate to admit, but I'm frequently amused to see the zanies go off on all sorts of bizzare tangents. I don't read each and every message, but now and again I'll open something with a title to which I have no particular interest. Sure enough I'll obtain an education on some totally disparate topic. After I do a double take. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jan 3 16:05:43 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:05:43 -0500 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: <7DF12D22-F3D6-447B-A46C-AE15216FE8AC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200701031705.43359.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 16:33, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 1/3/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > E450s were primarily designed to be servers, not workstations. > > But I know a guy (ahem Doc!) who has a very tasty > > workstation-config E450, rather drool-worthy. > > I'm hoping to run across an E3000 (pedestal, FC-AL external, SCA > internal drives, up to 8? CPUs in 4? trays...) sometime soon. I > spec'ed and ordered one for Lucent in 1997 or 1998, so not quite > on-topic, but I do know a few have surfaced for free/cheap recently. > That's about the only Sun I'm trying to keep an eye out for that has > a CPU enclosure larger than a 3U box. I also worked with some > E5000s, but that's a lot more Sun than I need in my house. Actually, only up to 6 CPUs - the system has 4 systemboard slots, but you need to have at least one I/O board in the system. The E3500 fixed that particular dumbness by having 5 slots, so you can have 8 CPUs (4 CPU/mem boards) + 1 I/O board, but introduced FC-AL internal drives, which are a pain in the butt (and make the internal disk bays basically useless for Linux). Ethan, I've got some spare E4000s, which can be "desk mounted", and have more cpu/i/o board slots than the E3000, and internal optical/tape drive slots (but no internal disk bays, unless you use a "disk board"). 8U tall, perhaps? I've even got a set of desk-top side covers for it -- but of course, I don't have the top or bottom covers. The E4000s I've got came as rack-mounted systems. The only real annoying thing about E4000 systems vs E3000 systems is that they only support the 83MHz bus speed, not the 100MHz bus speed; and the "clock board" they come with only supports a 4:1 CPU clock multiplier - so you can only do 336MHz CPUs instead of 400MHz, unless you replace the clock board with one that does a 5:1 multiplier. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From auringer at tds.net Wed Jan 3 16:05:29 2007 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:05:29 -0600 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: <7DF12D22-F3D6-447B-A46C-AE15216FE8AC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <459C28A9.7050805@tds.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm hoping to run across an E3000 (pedestal, FC-AL external, SCA > internal drives, up to 8? CPUs in 4? trays...) 6 CPUs on three cards. Mine has 6 400Mhz with 6 1GB memory kits. There are also 2GB memory kits to take the machine to 12GB. They are still rather pricey. It is possible to run 464Mhz processors, but they are still not easy/cheap to obtain. Be careful about what configuration you acquire. I bought mine for cheap, but ended up replacing the processor/memory boards to accommodate the move to the 400MHz from the original pair of 167MHz processors. I also had to replace the 83Mhz bus I/O cards with 100MHz I/O boards to support the faster procs. :( I also talked myself into swapping the SBUS video for UPA (creator) graphics. My cheap E3000 didn't end up being so cheap. I do enjoy playing with it, but I am glad that I can keep it at my office, and not have to pay for the electricity. With all 10 drive bays filled, it makes for a dandy little space heater. :) Jon From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jan 3 16:08:14 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 22:08:14 +0000 Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: <459C210F.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 3/1/07 21:33, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > > Anyone know where D-shell connectors first appeared on equipment? > > Interesting thread going on in a local group at the moment about why SCART [1] > sockets are so horrible and nasty (prone to breaking pins, difficult to line > up, prone to falling out etc.) and why something better, like a D-shell > connector, wasn't chosen instead. SCART was originally known as PERITEL and originated in France. Make of that what you will :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 3 16:09:03 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:09:03 -0600 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <870623.44982.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <870623.44982.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <459C297F.6020807@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > Right. So since Chuck has never had a compact Mac to > play with, who's going to donate him one? I vote it > has to be pre-ADB, to get the full look and feel experience. ADB? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 16:10:50 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:10:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: D-shell connector age? Message-ID: <200701032210.l03MAoD8009961@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > > Anyone know where D-shell connectors first appeare d > on equipment? > > Interesting thread going on in a local group at th e > moment about why SCART [1] > sockets are so horrible and nasty (prone to breaki ng > pins, difficult to line > up, prone to falling out etc.) and why something > better, like a D-shell > connector, wasn't chosen instead. > Yeah, the cable seems to put weight on the SCART socket and caused a glitchy SCART socket (or cable?) so we had to stick a thin piece of card in to get it to work!! I use a 3-way SCART box myself now, no more connecting/deconnecting to damage those pins, or the sockets on the TV/DVD/VCR. > Thing is, SCART was apparently first used in > consumer A/V equipment in 1977, > which probably means it was thought up in the > mid-70's. Really? I never realised SCART was so old, I thought it was a modern thing. Or was it just re-introduced by TV manufacturers? Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 16:13:19 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:13:19 -0600 Subject: Shipping company moveit.com In-Reply-To: References: <3004771.1167778000016.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <624966d60701031413t7f10ad0ag818db2f57c150124@mail.gmail.com> I've been using Computer Transportation Services since the late 70's or early 80's, and don't remember ever having any problems with them. I used to ship several 11/70's a month, and other systems and options. I always call, and didn't even know their web site was moveit.com Paul On 1/2/07, Richard wrote: > > > We'll see how well they did tomorrow. > > I purchased several lots through dovebid; two could be packed and send > ground with no problem and one needed freight. > > So I filled out two shipping quotes. > > They ended up i) combining the two quotes into a single shipment > without bothering to mention this to me, ii) didn't pay attention when > merging the orders and used my home address as the freight shipping > address, iii) every time I deal with them, its a different person and > they don't seem to know anything about my order or what state it is > in, iv) when I explicitly asked them on the phone how I was going to > pay for this, I got some sort of mumble "we'll deal with that later" > answer. I asked for a quote based on pessimistic (i.e. overly large > and overly heavy) estimates on the equipment and *presto* the final > order is exactly what their estimate based on my pessimistic > measurements said. Then they send me a bunch of digitized fax > paperwork asking me to apply for a "line of credit" with them without > me asking for any such thing. Each step of the process was from a > different email address/person at this company, making each attempt to > contact me look like spam to spam filters. > > So overall it feels like they are incompetent. They mismashed two > separate orders together without telling me and half-assed combined > them together, without paying any attention to what they were doing. > > I had the freight carrier call me today saying "so we're delivering to {my > > home address}, right?" and me having to correct them *after* I already > told moveit.com about the error and they informed me they would correct > the problem and update the freight company. This clearlyd id not happen. > Then they email me saying "the freight company has been trying to contact > you, is XXX-XXXX the right phone number?" without bothering to give me the > name of the freight company or any way to contact them until I ask for it. > > > Now I realize that noone is perfect and everyone has bad days, but > they have made mistakes along every step of the way here, and as near > as I can tell all the mistakes were made by different people. It feels > like they just assume they'll get dovebid business and don't have to > bother doing a good job. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > < http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> > > Legalize Adulthood! > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 16:13:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:13:24 -0500 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <200701031705.43359.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <7DF12D22-F3D6-447B-A46C-AE15216FE8AC@neurotica.com> <200701031705.43359.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 03 January 2007 16:33, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I'm hoping to run across an E3000 (pedestal, FC-AL external, SCA > > internal drives, up to 8? CPUs in 4? trays...) sometime soon... > > Actually, only up to 6 CPUs - the system has 4 systemboard slots, but > you need to have at least one I/O board in the system. Ah, yes... that sounds familiar now. We only had 2 CPU boards, so it wasn't an issue for our machine. > The E3500 fixed that particular dumbness by having 5 slots, so you > can have 8 CPUs (4 CPU/mem boards) + 1 I/O board... Handy... > but introduced FC-AL internal drives, which are a pain in the butt > (and make the internal disk bays basically useless for Linux). Good to know, but if I'm going to run Sun hardware, it'll be running Solaris. > Ethan, I've got some spare E4000s, which can be "desk mounted", and have > more cpu/i/o board slots than the E3000, and internal optical/tape > drive slots (but no internal disk bays, unless you use a "disk board"). > 8U tall, perhaps? I've even got a set of desk-top side covers for > it -- but of course, I don't have the top or bottom covers. The E4000s > I've got came as rack-mounted systems. Interesting. I don't know much about E4000s. > The only real annoying thing about E4000 systems vs E3000 systems is > that they only support the 83MHz bus speed, not the 100MHz bus speed; > and the "clock board" they come with only supports a 4:1 CPU clock > multiplier - so you can only do 336MHz CPUs instead of 400MHz, unless > you replace the clock board with one that does a 5:1 multiplier. I'm not such a CPU speed slut that that is likely to matter to me. I still fiddle with Sun hardware because they make nice servers and have more robust hardware than commodity Intel stuff. If I wanted speed, I'd go out and get the latest X GHz box and throw Linux on it and wait for it to break. ;-) As for taking on more Sun hardware myself, at the moment, I have a Netra (off-topic) that I still need to press into full service. I picked up some more RAM for it and need to get Solaris loaded, but that will lead to questions to the "Suns at Home" list, not this one (the kit is too new). Cheers, -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 3 16:14:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:14:02 -0800 Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: <459C210F.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> References: <459C210F.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <459BBA2A.4173.11D02B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jan 2007 at 15:33, Jules Richardson wrote: > Thing is, SCART was apparently first used in consumer A/V equipment in 1977, > which probably means it was thought up in the mid-70's. Edge connectors and/or > circular DIN connectors were probably more common on computer equipment of > that time, but were D-shell types around by then too? If my memory isn't too faulty, DB25's (used to be called "Cannon connectors") go back at least to the early 60s. Ma Bell used them on her datacomm equipment, complete with the chunky bakelite hoods. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 16:19:03 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:19:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage Message-ID: <200701032219.l03MJ1F2010496@keith.ezwind.net> --- David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > number of times system has inflicted > injuries on the owner > > > > > > That seems reasonable - I'm sure we all agree > every QBUS enclosure > > > ever produced is on topic :-) :-) > > > > I don't believe I've ever been injured by a Q-Bu s > enclosure. You just need > > to be careful! :^) I can't remember loosing any > skin, even on a BA23. > > Granted most of the time I've used a BA123. > > I've never used such a thing, but I have gashed my > hand on the corner of a > disused one. > Never heard of one myself(!), however I have come close to cutting myself when putting a 1MB RAM expansion card into the trapdoor on my Amiga 600 (giving it a whopping 2MB total chip RAM) - I just got a few grazes (spelling?). Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 3 16:21:14 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:21:14 -0800 Subject: IBM 5100/5110 ROS (ROM) images? Message-ID: <459C2C5A.4010007@bitsavers.org> > Has anyone extracted images of the Read Only Storage > for the IBM 5100/5100 desktop computers? Eric has talked about doing it. Apparently it is scanned during initial self-test, so it could be captured with a deep logic analyzer Considering how many have failed, it's something that needs doing. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 3 16:32:41 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 22:32:41 -0000 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <200701032147.l03Ll0bO030875@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <001501c72f87$16044ee0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I don't believe I've ever been injured by a Q-Bus enclosure. You > just need to be careful! :^) It was usually reaching under the bottom cards of a full BA23 to fish out the RQDX3 internal connecting cable that did it. Or the TQK50 one. Happy days :-) Antonio From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 3 16:36:25 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:36:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 03, 2007 04:33:58 PM Message-ID: <200701032236.l03MaPE6032311@onyx.spiritone.com> > I'm hoping to run across an E3000 (pedestal, FC-AL external, SCA > internal drives, up to 8? CPUs in 4? trays...) sometime soon. I > spec'ed and ordered one for Lucent in 1997 or 1998, so not quite > on-topic, but I do know a few have surfaced for free/cheap recently. > That's about the only Sun I'm trying to keep an eye out for that has a > CPU enclosure larger than a 3U box. I also worked with some E5000s, > but that's a lot more Sun than I need in my house. > > -ethan > > (whose present active Sun is a SPARC5/110) There is something to be said for older slower Sun's. While my current SunBlade 1000 (dual 750Mhz UltraSparc III) system is surprisingly quiet, it's the largest system besides my PDP-11/73 that I have at home (I do have larger). Additionally it sucks a *LOT* of power, and generates a *LOT* of heat. I'd hate to think about how much heat something like an E3000 will generate! Zane From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 3 16:43:06 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:43:06 -0800 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 1/3/07, woodelf wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So > > no, it's not officially vintage ;) We were thinking about auctioning off the original E450 that was the SETI at home server as a fund raiser. (Actually the original server is an Ultra-10 sitting on my desk. ellie aka jill nee sagan). Unfortunately university rules don't allow departments or groups to sell things and use the proceeds. University salvage sells them and the university gets the money. :( But SETI at home isn't 10 years old yet... (sun gave us an old E450). Even though it may be a collectible, it's not quite vintage. Yet. Things branded "Sun 4," I think would count, as would various SPARCstations and Solbournes. Has any 64-bit microprocessor been declared officially vintage yet? From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 3 16:43:06 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:43:06 -0800 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 1/3/07, woodelf wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So > > no, it's not officially vintage ;) We were thinking about auctioning off the original E450 that was the SETI at home server as a fund raiser. (Actually the original server is an Ultra-10 sitting on my desk. ellie aka jill nee sagan). Unfortunately university rules don't allow departments or groups to sell things and use the proceeds. University salvage sells them and the university gets the money. :( But SETI at home isn't 10 years old yet... (sun gave us an old E450). Even though it may be a collectible, it's not quite vintage. Yet. Things branded "Sun 4," I think would count, as would various SPARCstations and Solbournes. Has any 64-bit microprocessor been declared officially vintage yet? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jan 3 17:40:01 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 20:40:01 -0300 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage References: <200701032236.l03MaPE6032311@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00d701c72f90$efc500d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > There is something to be said for older slower Sun's. While my current > SunBlade 1000 (dual 750Mhz UltraSparc III) system is surprisingly quiet, > it's the largest system besides my PDP-11/73 that I have at home (I do > have > larger). Additionally it sucks a *LOT* of power, and generates a *LOT* of > heat. *LOT* of power translates to how much amperes/hour? :o) From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jan 3 16:46:47 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:46:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <200701032236.l03MaPE6032311@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200701032236.l03MaPE6032311@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: > There is something to be said for older slower Sun's. While my current > SunBlade 1000 (dual 750Mhz UltraSparc III) system is surprisingly quiet, > it's the largest system besides my PDP-11/73 that I have at home (I do have > larger). Additionally it sucks a *LOT* of power, and generates a *LOT* of > heat. My first experience with Sun was a desktop 3/60. THAT was a space heater. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 16:47:59 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:47:59 -0500 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: <459C297F.6020807@oldskool.org> References: <870623.44982.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <459C297F.6020807@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > Right. So since Chuck has never had a compact Mac to > > play with, who's going to donate him one? I vote it > > has to be pre-ADB, to get the full look and feel experience. > > ADB? Apple Desktop Bus. The first Macs (128k/512k/Plus?) had RJ-11-like connectors for the keyboard and DE9s for the mouse. Later Macs (SE and newer, up until USB) and probably the Apple IIGS had ADB peripherals - the connector looks much like an S-Video connector - mini-DIN with 4 pins and, IIRC, a plastic tab in the male connectors to trip a switch (termination?) inside the female connectors when plugged together. There may have been other peripherals than keyboard and mouse, but those were the common ones through the Mac ADB era. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 16:48:40 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:48:40 -0500 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <459C32C8.5040304@gmail.com> Eric J Korpela wrote: > On 1/3/07, woodelf wrote: >> Jay West wrote: >> > Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So >> > no, it's not officially vintage ;) > > We were thinking about auctioning off the original E450 that was the > SETI at home server as a fund raiser. (Actually the original server is > an Ultra-10 sitting on my desk. ellie aka jill nee sagan). > Unfortunately university rules don't allow departments or groups to > sell things and use the proceeds. University salvage sells them and > the university gets the money. :( > > But SETI at home isn't 10 years old yet... (sun gave us an old E450). > > Even though it may be a collectible, it's not quite vintage. Yet. > Things branded "Sun 4," I think would count, as would various > SPARCstations and Solbournes. Has any 64-bit microprocessor been > declared officially vintage yet? The Alpha 21064 (EV4) came out in 1992. I think that probably qualifies. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 16:50:30 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:50:30 -0500 Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: <459C210F.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> References: <459C210F.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Anyone know where D-shell connectors first appeared on equipment? They are in the 1954 Terminal catalog, at least. ...and the Dshell naming thread pops up on the horizon again... -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 16:51:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:51:43 -0500 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <459C337F.1090406@gmail.com> Eric J Korpela wrote: > Even though it may be a collectible, it's not quite vintage. Yet. > Things branded "Sun 4," I think would count, as would various > SPARCstations and Solbournes. Has any 64-bit microprocessor been > declared officially vintage yet? I already mentioned the Alpha 21064, but I believe the MIPS R4000 was even earlier. Peace... Sridhar From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 16:56:27 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:56:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: Old Mac music software Message-ID: <200701032256.l03MuPtW012336@keith.ezwind.net> --- Joachim Thiemann w rote: **>> snip <<** > (*) This may be due to the fact that I mostly used > Trackers before > leaping into MIDI. OctaMED is a heck of a great > program, and a good > enough reason to keep my Amiga up and running. > OctaMED :) I tried various pieces of music software on the Amiga including Music Mouse (great idea, but you need Deluxe Music Construction Set to save the music! - I have it now too, BTW), Tracker and a few others. Teijo Kinnunens OctaMED was by far the easiest to use, for me atleast. I have only composed 2 songs so far (using the score sheet window - I have the tracker style code mode, despite being the only way to add special effects). The first was rubbish (seriously), but the 2nd was very good and only took 2 hours to compose. It only last's 1 min 30 secs and is "played" on the Bamboo Zylaphone. I called it "Jungle Beat". Teijo's 2 demo pieces of music that acompanied OctaMED 5 (the version I use) were awesome. Is he still in the music scene somewhere? OctaMED became OctaMED Sound Studio (which I have the demo of somewhere) but I wasn't keen on it. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jan 3 16:55:53 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 22:55:53 +0000 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <001501c72f87$16044ee0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: On 3/1/07 22:32, "arcarlini at iee.org" wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I don't believe I've ever been injured by a Q-Bus enclosure. You >> just need to be careful! :^) > > It was usually reaching under the bottom cards of a full BA23 > to fish out the RQDX3 internal connecting cable that did it. > Or the TQK50 one. The thing that got me the most was the cabling associated with the RQDXE, purely because it had to be last on the bus. Just before xmas when I was troubleshooting my Micro 11/73 (on work's time, heh) I thought I'd beaten myself by reassembling the whole cardcage in reverse order but the bloody thing still got me :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Wed Jan 3 17:00:11 2007 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:00:11 -0600 Subject: Dual Posts (was Re: Sun E450 server officially vintage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Eric, I tried emailing you off-list, but your filters bounced my email (and your message back looked like spam to Hotmail!). Your posts are coming through twice because you are sending to cctech with a CC: to cctalk. All cctech posts go to cctalk by default, and on-topic cctalk posts go to cctech, after moderation (correct Jay?). So, you don't need the CC: Regards, Bob >From: "Eric J Korpela" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Sun E450 server officially vintage >Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:43:06 -0800 > _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 17:00:51 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:00:51 -0500 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Ok, tell us more about these things. A web search tells little. All I > see is something about non-linear magnetic core, f/2 and phase. > I don't see how it is used to create a logical operation. All my (very few) documents (yes, Al), are in Japanese. >From what I see, it looks like each logic block is a majority gate with inputs feeding the core. With an odd number of inputs (required with majority gates), and sine signals of either phase applied (0 degrees is zero, and 180 degrees is one, for example) to the inputs, the phase in the majority saturates the core, and is fed out to the amplifier (12AX7s, in this case) to be normalized. At least I think that is how they work. The more important thing about this logic trainer, and the NEAC, is that it shows us Westerners that the Japanese were indeed able to make quality goods in the late 1950s. -- Will From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 3 17:00:54 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:00:54 -0900 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <200701032117.l03LHXsj027113@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103135435.034d1bc8@pop.1and1.com> At 12:17 PM 1/3/2007, you wrote: >"Joachim Thiemann" wrote: > > > >Actually, I've been wondering: What is the effect of x-rays on EPROMS? > >I was always told it could flip bits. But that was older UV erasable >types. I'd would be interested to know if that is really true... Most PROM memory can be erased with x-rays, although with FLASH memory it actually damages the memory's ability to be reprogrammed before it erases them... (So the erasure risk isn't important) I've never tried, but heard of people erasing OTP microcontrollers with x-rays. The 1702 was originally designed to be erased with x-rays and then annealed in an oven. The temperature required to recondition the EPROM was a risk to the device. So they put a window in it. That's the birth of the window on EPROMs (they didn't have windows in the beginning). One of our customers did some contract work for an electronics company once. They erased a few thousand EPROMs with their x-ray source. It was much faster and cheaper than UV I guess. I don't know any of the details though... >(I'm having a flash back to wrapping eproms in tin-foil when flying >prototype game carts and coin-op games out to the west coast. probably >just paranoid, but we did that) That wouldn't do very much at all. The x-ray machine at the airport goes right through tin foil. 1/8 of lead would have worked wonders. I once checked a 30lb slab of lead as luggage. The screener wasn't expecting a cardboard sleeve the SIZE of a national geographic to be so heavy. : D From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 3 16:11:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 22:11:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Jan 2, 7 08:34:19 am Message-ID: > > Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So no, > it's not officially vintage ;) Oh not this _again_.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 3 16:56:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 22:56:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: <459C210F.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 3, 7 03:33:03 pm Message-ID: > > > Anyone know where D-shell connectors first appeared on equipment? Earlier than you might think. I would guess 1950's/early 1960s. I've got bits of navigational equipment, stuffed full of valves, and they have D connectors on the modules. They were certainly around long before the horrible SCART plug! > > Interesting thread going on in a local group at the moment about why SCART [1] > sockets are so horrible and nasty (prone to breaking pins, difficult to line > up, prone to falling out etc.) and why something better, like a D-shell > connector, wasn't chosen instead. Well, the D connector is not really an RF connector (yes, there are versions with coaxial connector inserts, when did those come out?). Mind you, the SCART connecotr is not exactly constnat impedance either! > > Thing is, SCART was apparently first used in consumer A/V equipment in 1977, > which probably means it was thought up in the mid-70's. Edge connectors and/or > circular DIN connectors were probably more common on computer equipment of > that time, but were D-shell types around by then too? Well, for home comuputers, maybe (the DIN connector [1], another horrible thing, beaten only by the mini-DIN IMHO, was not at all common on larger machines . But the DB25 was already well-established for RS232 serial connections at that point. [1] I don't know the date of that either, but Philips had DIN connectors on tape recoerders in the mid 1960s. [An aside. Am I the only person here to rememebr the IEC record player connector? It's a flat thing with 5 flat pins on 0.2" (IIRC) centres, no overal shroud round the pins like a DIN plug. The pins are arranged something like : -- -- | -- | Every other pin is ground, the other 2 are left and right audio inputs. Oh yes, the pins are called P, Q, R, S, T for some totally unknown reason. A couple of my old Philps tape recorders have such a socket on them for the record player input (wired in parallel with a DIN socket, thankfully!). I have also found _one_ plug in my overstocked junk box. No idea where you'd get more of them now. ] -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jan 3 17:03:20 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 23:03:20 +0000 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C32C8.5040304@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/1/07 22:48, "Sridhar Ayengar" wrote: >> SPARCstations and Solbournes. Has any 64-bit microprocessor been >> declared officially vintage yet? > > The Alpha 21064 (EV4) came out in 1992. I think that probably qualifies. $hells no, the Alpha is still a valid and working architecture, and people like me are wondering when the EV9 will be released because it MUST happen soon :D It's still the best CPU ever...discuss. (yes yes yes I'm bang up to speed with Alpha developments,and the lack of, but one can hope :)) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 17:06:42 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:06:42 -0500 Subject: parametrons, was Re: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <459B3015.4961F42A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca> <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> <459B3015.4961F42A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I was speculating along those lines as well, that as a system got more > complex trying to track phase shift through all possible paths in the > system would become a nightmare. I know the CDC6600 had individual wires > cut to specific lengths, but this seems like a problem of another > magnitude. I would bet there is some sort of Nyquisteque formula for figuring out how fast a parametron could work, using frequency F. Obviously, for the parametron to go fast, the frequency (or pulse duration) needs to be really quite high (or short). And as the F goes up in HF and VHF, all the gremlins come out that all the radio guys know about. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 3 17:11:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 23:11:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 3, 7 05:47:59 pm Message-ID: > > > > ADB? > > Apple Desktop Bus. The first Macs (128k/512k/Plus?) had RJ-11-like I'll ocnfirm the Mac Plus has the RJ11 connetor for the keyboard and a DE9 for the mouse (but miniDIN-8 conenctors for the serial ports, I thought the older machines had DE9s for those too). > connectors for the keyboard and DE9s for the mouse. Later Macs (SE > and newer, up until USB) and probably the Apple IIGS had ADB > peripherals - the connector looks much like an S-Video connector - > mini-DIN with 4 pins and, IIRC, a plastic tab in the male connectors > to trip a switch (termination?) inside the female connectors when > plugged together. Does it? I know the 3 pin miniDIN used on the Localtalk network has a switch in the socket that conencts a terminating resistor, and which is openned when the plug is inserted, but I've never seen any evidence of this on ADB. But admittedly I've never tried to trace out schematics of an ADB'ed Mac. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 17:07:43 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:07:43 -0600 Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C373F.4010807@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 3/1/07 21:33, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > >> Anyone know where D-shell connectors first appeared on equipment? >> >> Interesting thread going on in a local group at the moment about why SCART [1] >> sockets are so horrible and nasty (prone to breaking pins, difficult to line >> up, prone to falling out etc.) and why something better, like a D-shell >> connector, wasn't chosen instead. > > SCART was originally known as PERITEL and originated in France. > > Make of that what you will :) To be honest, it's a great idea - and much better than non-European countries where the typical connectivity is via RF only. Going source->modulator->tuner->display never did seem like a good idea when you could just go source->display via separate shielded RGB signals. (The picture quality I've seen on the typical US setup is piss-poor compared to the UK, jokes about NTSC aside) It's just a shame that the connector they picked for the standard is so lousy. Having looked at some old pricelists, SCART connectors weren't much cheaper than D-shells - and given that they were typically used on expensive equipment which only contained a couple of them, the difference couldn't have been significant at all. The only thing I can think of (other than it being some odd political decision) is that you know SCART is SCART; if using D-shells there would have been a few idiots trying to plug any old computer cable into their equipment. That hardly seems justification to enforce a nasty connector choice, though. Assuming that D-shell connectors were around, of course - but if Chuck's right then they should have been readily available in the mid-70's. Pin spacing is wider on SCART, so presumably they suffer less from interference - but we all know that D-shells are perfectly good for video (particularly at TV rates). cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 17:11:58 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:11:58 -0600 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C383E.8040901@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <459BAFF4.19008.F51E8B at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> Well, there you go! Someone submits a system for consideration and >> list votes on it. > > I think that will just lead to lots of argument about what qualifies > as a "vintage" system when instead you're really arguing about which > vintage systems are "interesting". Yikes. I was very, very much joking :-) But some sort of: "is it vintage or not" page on the classiccmp website could be fun; questions could be weighted somehow so that it doesn't favour the stereotypical computer that's huge and has lots of flashing lights... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 17:18:47 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:18:47 -0500 Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/3/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > ADB? > > > > Apple Desktop Bus. The first Macs (128k/512k/Plus?) had RJ-11-like > > I'll ocnfirm the Mac Plus has the RJ11 connetor for the keyboard and a > DE9 for the mouse (but miniDIN-8 conenctors for the serial ports, I > thought the older machines had DE9s for those too). Older Macs did have DE9s for serial (printer/modem/Appletalk...) > > the connector looks much like an S-Video connector - > > mini-DIN with 4 pins and, IIRC, a plastic tab in the male connectors > > to trip a switch (termination?) inside the female connectors when > > plugged together. > > Does it? I know the 3 pin miniDIN used on the Localtalk network has a > switch in the socket that conencts a terminating resistor, and which is > openned when the plug is inserted, but I've never seen any evidence of > this on ADB. But admittedly I've never tried to trace out schematics of > an ADB'ed Mac. Perhaps that's what I'm thinking of - the switch goes with the 3-pin miniDIN Localtalk connectors, not 4-pin miniDIN ADB connectors. -ethan From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 17:19:21 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:19:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Needed: 80micro magazine Message-ID: <200701032319.l03NJKpO013356@keith.ezwind.net> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: **>> snip <<** > > And here's their web site--they seem to be very > games-oriented > nowadays: > > http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/login/ > > Enjoy, > Chuck > LOL. Just a bit! Enterbrain own the largest Japanese (and Worldwide??) brand of videogames magazines, including: Arcadia (arcade mag) Famitsu PS2 (errr....!!) Famitsu XBox (erm!) Famitsu Wii (that may not be out yet!) Famitsu Weekly (weekly multi-format console mag) Famitsu Wave DVD/Mag I get the last one. It comes out every month and has 2 DVD's packed with adverts, tips, wacky Japanese stuff (well.. most games mags/TV shows are nutty - anyone here in the UK recall Bits or Games Master?), reviews and interviews. Theres usually around 3 hours of stuff. Going well OT, sorry Jay. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 3 17:20:48 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:20:48 -0700 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0701031228s71546a0dp27634b59d1d3b052@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20070102222341.039353f8@pop.1and1.com> <459B9B41.30906@yahoo.co.uk> <5.2.1.1.0.20070103111648.03480e08@pop.1and1.com> <4affc5e0701031228s71546a0dp27634b59d1d3b052@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <459C3A50.1030305@jetnet.ab.ca> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On 1/3/07, Grant Stockly wrote: > Actually, I've been wondering: What is the effect of x-rays on EPROMS? Umm they glow in the dark afterwords. :) > Joe. I suspect they DON'T have a healty effect on them. From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jan 3 17:22:04 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:22:04 -0600 Subject: IBM 5100/5110 ROS (ROM) images? In-Reply-To: <459C2C5A.4010007@bitsavers.org> References: <459C2C5A.4010007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <459C3A9C.7050806@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > Has anyone extracted images of the Read Only Storage > > for the IBM 5100/5100 desktop computers? > > Eric has talked about doing it. Apparently it is scanned during > initial self-test, so it could be captured with a deep logic analyzer > > Considering how many have failed, it's something that needs doing. I bought a 5110 model 3 (the one with integrated dual disk drives) for the same purpose. However, it is destined to stay low on my list of emulation projects. If somebody comes along and does it first, it will save me a lot of work. :-) Here is my current list of emulator/website projects, in descending order. Does anybody else have projects like these in the pipeline? (1) Wang 3300; half way done. I've scanned docs, disassembled about half of the BASIC interpreter, written the core CPU emulator code. Soon I hope to get back to it to add the rest of the emulation infrastructure and then debug it. (2) Compucolor II. I have captured the ROMs from mine (via stimulation by program and capture by logic analyzer) and I've been collecting disks and docs for the eventual website, but things turn up infrequently on ebay. (3) Wang 2200; frozen for now; someday I'll add MVP mode. (4) Sol-20; frozen for now; someday I'll add helios emulation. (5) IBM 5110. Collecting dust, waiting for the above projects to give way. (6) Exidy Sorcerer. I know there is a java emulator out there. Low priority to do a portable C version. (7) HP-8x emulator. Done. But not by me. Once I found that it had been emulated I gave away my 85 and 86 but kept my 87. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 17:26:38 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:26:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: Recovering Cassette Tape Records Message-ID: <200701032326.l03NQcvf013710@keith.ezwind.net> --- Grant Stockly wrote: > > I think the reason that the demodulated output is > not 300bps is the KCACR > is locking onto the tape speed? I don't know anything about the KCACR, but the way the Spectrum and C64 saved data the computer would go by the speed of the tape. Typically, any data would be preceeded by 4 (perhaps less?) seconds of pulses which would allow the computer to work out the speed of the tape. I can only assume other computers used this method too?? Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Jan 3 17:37:08 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:37:08 -0600 Subject: Anyone else here do AS/400? In-Reply-To: <001b01c72f63$a4b8c9f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <001b01c72f63$a4b8c9f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <459C3E24.1050204@brutman.com> Wolfe, Julian wrote: > I'm not entirely sure if this is off topic yet(hence why I put it on > cctalk), but I know on a hobbyist level it's fairly rare. > > On Saturday I'll be picking up an AS/400 model 9406-600 originally purchased > September 1997 with all the software and docs, licences etc that were ever > used with the machine, from the original owner. I've contacted IBM and > arranged license transfer (there was thankfully no charge) > > Does anyone else here deal with AS/400, or have a lingering interest in it? > > Secondly, I'm thinking of connecting a classic IBM terminal to it such as a > 5251 S/34 term instead of the one that comes with it (something fairly > modern, not sure of the model yet) I am curious; are any limitations on what > I can connect, or are all twinax terminals pretty equal from a connectivity > standpoint? > > > I've got code in that box. When you get around to discussing the internals, I can core dump some of my brain for you. (I worked in the low level OS of the AS/400 from 1992 to 2000.) The 5251 should work fine - I've used them on much newer AS/400s. Mike From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 17:24:50 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:24:50 -0600 Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C3B42.2080104@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Well, the D connector is not really an RF connector (yes, there are > versions with coaxial connector inserts, when did those come out?). Mind > you, the SCART connecotr is not exactly constnat impedance either! Indeed; I can't see why a D-type would be any worse, and it would have eliminated a lot of the problems with SCART types. >> Thing is, SCART was apparently first used in consumer A/V equipment in 1977, >> which probably means it was thought up in the mid-70's. Edge connectors and/or >> circular DIN connectors were probably more common on computer equipment of >> that time, but were D-shell types around by then too? > > Well, for home comuputers, maybe (the DIN connector [1], another horrible > thing, beaten only by the mini-DIN IMHO, was not at all common on larger > machines . But the DB25 was already well-established for RS232 serial > connections at that point. I was struggling to think of any - but then most of the systems we have are either 50's / 60's (and tend to use all manner of oddball connectors), or are late-70's onwards (and so post-date SCART). There seems to be a real blank spot when it comes to early 70's systems, for some reason. (I'm not at all clued up on our DEC stuff though, so some of that may well qualify) > [An aside. Am I the only person here to rememebr the IEC record player > connector? It's a flat thing with 5 flat pins on 0.2" (IIRC) centres, no > overal shroud round the pins like a DIN plug. The pins are arranged > something like : > > -- -- | -- | > > Every other pin is ground, the other 2 are left and right audio inputs. Hmm, I've seen those about - I think I've still got one in the junk box somewhere, although I don't recall what gadget it came from. cheers Jules From geneb at simpits.com Wed Jan 3 17:30:12 2007 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:30:12 -0800 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <200701031932.OAA21222@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <002d01c72f6c$0d575870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200701031932.OAA21222@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <459C3C84.1070100@simpits.com> der Mouse wrote: >> My objection isn't to the actual word "Jew" but to your casual use of >> it to replace "You" > > How else would you spell that pronunciation distortion of "you"? > Actually, I've seen it as "joo" and "j00" (with two zeros, the most common representation I've seen), both used in the same context as "joo doan wanna go dere!". Regardless, there's far too much panty wadding going on here. Move along. g. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 17:35:41 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:35:41 -0700 Subject: Shipping company moveit.com In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:13:19 -0600. <624966d60701031413t7f10ad0ag818db2f57c150124@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: OK, the shipment arrived today. And just like I expected, they fscked up. Again. The pallet they used looks like it was slapped together from scrap lumber and was practically falling apart as the delivery men hefted it up onto the loading dock. Because the pallet was falling apart, they *almost* dropped the whole thing onto the ground. Don't ask me why they insisted on lifting it instead of using their lift gate! I guess it was too much trouble to properly park the truck against the dock. If this had been a proper pallet this wouldn't have been a problem. OK, so I get a look at how they "packed" the item to prepare it for shipment. The Onyx is just sitting on the pallet, not strapped down to anything. The Octane2 and sirius video box (which were my two other dovebid lots that I *requested* be shipped by ground, but my request was ignored and I wasn't informed of this until it was too late to do anything about) were just saran wrapped onto the pallet. As a result, the O2 -- which was looking cosmetically quite clean in the dovebid photos -- is now covered in scuffs and scratch marks all over the case. The sirius box is fine, but since its basically a big metal rack mount box I wasn't worried about that in the first place. The onyx -- which as very fragile plastic skins -- was only protected by one or two layers of bubble wrap and then saran wrapped all around. Compare this to the other Onyx that I had delivered yesterday. That Onyx was vinyl strapped to the pallet. Then styrofoam was placed around all sides of the unit and a cardboard "crate" created around the styrofoam and then this was all strapped to the pallet again. I couldn't imagine two more clear examples of how to do things the right way and the wrong way. I consider myself damn lucky that the Onyx delivered today didn't become a big pile of scrap metal. Given that this whole experience was one big Mongolian cluster fsck from one end of the transaction to the other, I can't help but think that the CTS that y'all knew and love is no more. Craters & Freighters was about the same price as these people and put *much* more care into packing items for shipment than CTS. It appears that "careful packing for shipment" to them means just put 4 more layers of saran wrap around it and calling it "good". I'll definately never use them again. Thank the dogs for capitalism so that I have other choices. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 17:22:46 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 18:22:46 -0500 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C3AC6.3090103@gmail.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 3/1/07 22:48, "Sridhar Ayengar" wrote: > >>> SPARCstations and Solbournes. Has any 64-bit microprocessor been >>> declared officially vintage yet? >> The Alpha 21064 (EV4) came out in 1992. I think that probably qualifies. > > $hells no, the Alpha is still a valid and working architecture, and people > like me are wondering when the EV9 will be released because it MUST happen > soon :D It's still the best CPU ever...discuss. Just because it evolved into something that is currently in use doesn't make the original Alpha a non-classic. End-of-line S/370's are not all that different architecturally from the latest System/z's. Can you say that an early '60's Corvette isn't a classic because they still make the Corvette today? Come on. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 17:45:25 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:45:25 -0700 Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:07:43 -0600. <459C373F.4010807@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Wikipedia claims they were invented by ITT Canon, but doesn't give a year. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 3 18:41:14 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 19:41:14 -0500 Subject: IBM 5100/5110 ROS (ROM) images? In-Reply-To: <459BACCA.1824.6BC81492@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <200701032347.l03Nl5ZR028209@hosting.monisys.ca> > Has anyone extracted images of the Read Only Storage > for the IBM 5100/5100 desktop computers? I haven't > seen any mention of it anywhere, nor any simulators. > Has anyone worked on this? Seems like it should be doable > and worthwhile. Though, it might be necessary to build > hardware to read out the ROS contents -- I don't think the > 5100 provides programmatic access to the PALM object code for > the 360 and S/3 emulators, just the BASIC and APL code. > Does that sound right? I'd be VERY interested if some progress can be made on this. I have a (BASIC only) 5100 that has a failure of the non-executable ROS ... So far I've not been able to dig up any significant technical information, and images of the ROS do not appear to exist.... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jan 3 17:47:56 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 23:47:56 +0000 Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3/1/07 22:56, "Tony Duell" wrote: > A couple of my old Philps tape recorders have such a socket on them for > the record player input (wired in parallel with a DIN socket, > thankfully!). I have also found _one_ plug in my overstocked junk box. No > idea where you'd get more of them now. ] I remember my parents having a Sharp amp plus Garrard record deck back in the 70s that had similar connections for the speakers, but that's a bit OT :) As an aside I was there over xmas and they still have the same setup in a box somewhere, bits of me are thinking I should keep it for the forseeable.... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 17:49:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:49:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070103234947.63094.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> > > > > > > > > ADB? > > > > > > Apple Desktop Bus. The first Macs > (128k/512k/Plus?) had RJ-11-like Right, my point was that a REAL Mac has that old rattley keyboard. Much more vintij then the newer sleeker style of the SE-> and II's--> Seriously, if I had one I'd send it too him gratis. But I don't. I hope someone steps up. But I don't. You haven't lived until you've played with that bizarre Mockingtosh type and talk program. That wasn't it's name of course, but when it said Macintosh it sounded an awful lot like Mackingtosh. > > I'll ocnfirm the Mac Plus has the RJ11 connetor > for the keyboard and a > > DE9 for the mouse (but miniDIN-8 conenctors for > the serial ports, I > > thought the older machines had DE9s for those > too). > > Older Macs did have DE9s for serial > (printer/modem/Appletalk...) Right, and the old Macs had RS-422? And someone help me remember what cable, although intended for an entirely different purpose (I want to say to interface to the Imagewriter, but I'm thinking that had a mini din at the printer end, though I could be daffy) worked quite well as a null modem for Mac<-->PC transfers. I'm sure I also still have it in my stash, but I ain't going through that mess anytime soon. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jan 3 17:52:16 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 23:52:16 +0000 Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: <459C373F.4010807@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 3/1/07 23:07, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > UK, jokes about NTSC aside) Never The Same Colour? :) > The only thing I can think of (other than it being some odd political > decision) is that you know SCART is SCART; if using D-shells there would have Yes the connector is the same, but the wiring suffers the same faults as D(b)25, you can't pick up a SCART and assume it'll do what you want, also you can't even assume that because there's a thick cable between connectors then there's a full set of connections in each plug.... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 17:56:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:56:15 -0700 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:43:06 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Eric J Korpela" writes: > Even though it may be a collectible, it's not quite vintage. Yet. > Things branded "Sun 4," I think would count, as would various > SPARCstations and Solbournes. Has any 64-bit microprocessor been > declared officially vintage yet? Vintage Suns I have: - GTX graphics tower sans interface card (anyone got one?) - Sun 3/110 w/expansion chassis Is a SPARCstation 5 vintage yet? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 17:59:13 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:59:13 -0700 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:11:58 -0600. <459C383E.8040901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <459C383E.8040901 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Yikes. I was very, very much joking :-) I know :) But, just like always, that has never stopped us! > But some sort of: "is it vintage or > not" page on the classiccmp website could be fun; questions could be weighted > somehow so that it doesn't favour the stereotypical computer that's huge and > has lots of flashing lights... Yes, if it has to be huge and have lots of blinking lights, then surely that leaves out most S-100 and CP/M systems of the 70s and 80s. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 17:57:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:57:15 -0700 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:51:43 -0500. <459C337F.1090406@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <459C337F.1090406 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > I already mentioned the Alpha 21064, but I believe the MIPS R4000 was > even earlier. MIPS R3000 was used in the ESV in 1989. I think the R4000 came out in 1990/1991? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 17:53:31 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:53:31 -0700 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:02:03 -0800. <272619.29878.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <272619.29878.qm at web61011.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > [...] I hate to admit, but I'm frequently > amused to see the zanies go off on all sorts of > bizzare tangents. [...] Heh heh, yep. I try to make a habit of adjusting the subject line when I am responding on a thread with a side-topic. That way the people who have been skimming/skipping a long thread may pick up on my divergence as more "interesting" -- or perhaps less interesting! Either way, accurate labelling helps :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 3 18:04:34 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 00:04:34 +0000 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C337F.1090406@gmail.com> References: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> <459C337F.1090406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <459C4492.3050309@dunnington.plus.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Eric J Korpela wrote: >> Even though it may be a collectible, it's not quite vintage. Yet. >> Things branded "Sun 4," I think would count, as would various >> SPARCstations and Solbournes. Has any 64-bit microprocessor been >> declared officially vintage yet? > > I already mentioned the Alpha 21064, but I believe the MIPS R4000 was > even earlier. R4000 is only 32-bit, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 18:10:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:10:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <459C3C84.1070100@simpits.com> Message-ID: <196041.70066.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Trying terribly hard to resist a response to this thread, the origin of which I'm not even aware of (it probably looked like all the rest of the goofy spam I've been getting (no I don't have these posts sent to a different folder, and in fact do not have ANYTHING any longer sent to different folders, not even the spam. One great big smorgasbord.)), I forge on... I used to work with a guy years ago, who in fact was a supervisor, who in fact was Jewish. In the midst of some conversation we were having, something I said was misunderstood, to which I replied "what did you think I said?". Now, being born and raised in New York (and YES I do make a point of pronouncing most of *most of* my R's, and never once in my life have uttered the syllables comprising the detestable YAWK), I'll type something, but it comes out of my mouth sometimes ;) differently. And I've probably been guilty of all 3 of the following mispronounciations: "what did yuh think I said?" "what did juh think I said?" "what did joo think I said?" Frankly, I can't remember which I was guilty of on that particular day, but I guess my friend figured it was time for a good gafaw, and replied "WHO ARE YOU CALLING A JEW!". And believe you me, we both laughed good and hard. I probably got a little red faced to boot. Does this have anything to do with the origin of the thread? Like I said I can't tell you. Seemed as appropriate as any other way to *hopefully* end it though. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 18:10:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 18:10:34 -0600 Subject: Shipping company moveit.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C45FA.8090809@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > As a result, the O2 -- which was looking cosmetically quite clean in > the dovebid photos -- is now covered in scuffs and scratch marks all > over the case. Is there any chance those will polish out somehow? I know I managed to get scuffs off an Indigo shell before, at least to the point where it looked cosmetically good unless you had your nose right up to it. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 18:18:36 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:18:36 -0700 Subject: Shipping company moveit.com In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 18:10:34 -0600. <459C45FA.8090809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <459C45FA.8090809 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Richard wrote: > > As a result, the O2 -- which was looking cosmetically quite clean in > > the dovebid photos -- is now covered in scuffs and scratch marks all > > over the case. > > Is there any chance those will polish out somehow? [...] Possibly, I hadn't thought of that. However, there was a reason that I specifically asked for this to be shipped separately by ground -- and that was because I didn't want this sitting on a pallet getting kicked around in the freight channel. I wanted it in bubble wrap and packing peanuts inside a box. They totally disregarded my request and didn't even bother telling me that they'd combined everything into one freight shipment until it had already left and there wasn't anything I could do about it. Bad shipper! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 18:14:41 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 18:14:41 -0600 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C46F1.2050006@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: >> But some sort of: "is it vintage or >> not" page on the classiccmp website could be fun; questions could be weighted >> somehow so that it doesn't favour the stereotypical computer that's huge and >> has lots of flashing lights... > > Yes, if it has to be huge and have lots of blinking lights, then > surely that leaves out most S-100 and CP/M systems of the 70s and 80s. Maybe an additional question is something like: "would it cost more than $500US to move it 100 miles?" so that we can skew the result to favour the smaller systems a bit more too :-) From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Jan 3 18:27:31 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 19:27:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070104002731.2E53E5824E@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Richard > > Then there's the VIC-20 and C=64. As common as dirt, but certainly > interesting and also vintage. And IMHO, a lot more fun then playing with dirt and you don't need a shower afterwards. Cheers, Bryan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 3 18:36:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:36:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C15A8.4050006@yahoo.co.uk> References: <459C15A8.4050006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070103163414.D60274@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > We need a page reachable through the classiccmp website which takes into > account things like: nahh. codable in FORTRAN and a few dozen assembly languages > age > physical size > production count / rarity > operational noise level > number of flashing lights > case styling 'coolness' factor > number of mouse nests / dead insects inside > number of times system has inflicted injuries on the owner > etc. > ... and then makes a call as to whether it will be seen by the list at large > as on-topic or not. Do you have a formula to use for the algorithm? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Jan 3 18:37:08 2007 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:37:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C4492.3050309@dunnington.plus.com> References: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> <459C337F.1090406@gmail.com> <459C4492.3050309@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jan 2007, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 00:04:34 +0000 > From: Pete Turnbull > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: Sun E450 server officially vintage > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Eric J Korpela wrote: >>> Even though it may be a collectible, it's not quite vintage. Yet. >>> Things branded "Sun 4," I think would count, as would various >>> SPARCstations and Solbournes. Has any 64-bit microprocessor been >>> declared officially vintage yet? >> >> I already mentioned the Alpha 21064, but I believe the MIPS R4000 was even >> earlier. > > R4000 is only 32-bit, though. No, The R4000 is 64 bits and probably the first 64 bit Microprocessor... > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > Peter Wallace From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 3 18:39:07 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:39:07 -0900 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <459C3A50.1030305@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4affc5e0701031228s71546a0dp27634b59d1d3b052@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20070102222341.039353f8@pop.1and1.com> <459B9B41.30906@yahoo.co.uk> <5.2.1.1.0.20070103111648.03480e08@pop.1and1.com> <4affc5e0701031228s71546a0dp27634b59d1d3b052@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103153045.0366ad18@pop.1and1.com> At 02:20 PM 1/3/2007, you wrote: >Joachim Thiemann wrote: >>On 1/3/07, Grant Stockly wrote: >>Actually, I've been wondering: What is the effect of x-rays on EPROMS? >Umm they glow in the dark afterwords. :) Actually, you aren't too far off if you consider out of this world tests... A linear accelerator emitting electrons, not x-rays, can put a charge in plastic and cause it to glow. Here is some text from a neat test at a lab... (they have a lot of fun) I have all the pictures from these tests if you guys are interested. These guys also make diamonds turn blue. : ) The answer(s): Using electrons with much higher ionizing/charging ability than x-rays, (the "ozone" (O3) was very apparent in the shelter by the way!) the damage ("tree/branch" appearance) is done by the electrons leaping out/suddenly discharging through the Plexiglas. As a lightning strike parts the air, it will also part Plexiglas in an obviously similar fashion. What we are doing is pushing a bunch of electrons (electron 'charge', as if it were a capacitor) into the Plexiglas from one side. Unlike X-Rays which easily pass through >3" of carbon steel at this energy level, these electrons only penetrate 4mm for every 1 MeV (Million Electron Volts) of energy. The penetration in this 'experiment' was about 1/2" or 12 mm. We were running 60 mA (Milliamperes) each pulse at 50 PPS (Pulses per second) with a 4.5 microsecond pulse width. That's about 12 Microamperes average. We ran for 1.5 minutes max for a charge of 1 Millicoulomb.(A unit of electrical charge equal to the amount of charge transferred by a current of 1 ampere in 1 second) At 3 MeV (Million Electron Volts) (the system I was using here) that's 3.24kj or Kilojoules. (Joules: A unit of electrical energy equal to the work done when a current of one ampere passes through a resistance of one ohm for one second With the Plexiglas thus full of electrons, ("charged" as would be a capacitor just before it conducts) we pick it up and put it on a board, and whack the edge with a pointed object. After first making sure that the point is grounded. It can also be done using a drill press, with a sharpened nail in the chuck. This causes a stress crack in the Plexiglas, which encourages some of the electrons to exit. This tears a track in the Plexiglas, which permits more of the electrons to come out. The electrons coming out tear/rip a path in the Plexiglas just as lightning tears a path in the air leaving behind a witness path, such as you see in the pictures. And like lightning the process is accompanied by a loud bang and a flash. The Plexiglas continues to 'sparkle' with bright blue 'sprits' running along the small branches for several minutes. It is truly a beautiful appearance.....at least in MY opinion! This plus the final pattern (which is obviously different every time) is great at entertaining the multitude. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jan 3 18:42:27 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 19:42:27 -0500 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C337F.1090406@gmail.com> References: <459C337F.1090406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200701031942.27890.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 17:51, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Eric J Korpela wrote: > > Even though it may be a collectible, it's not quite vintage. Yet. > > Things branded "Sun 4," I think would count, as would various > > SPARCstations and Solbournes. Has any 64-bit microprocessor been > > declared officially vintage yet? > > I already mentioned the Alpha 21064, but I believe the MIPS R4000 was > even earlier. But the R4x00 was 32-bit... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 18:45:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:45:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <200701031942.27890.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20070104004510.91994.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > But the R4x00 was 32-bit... > > Pat No it's not Pat, read the previous post. Sheesh. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 18:42:23 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 18:42:23 -0600 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <20070103163414.D60274@shell.lmi.net> References: <459C15A8.4050006@yahoo.co.uk> <20070103163414.D60274@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <459C4D6F.4060200@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >> We need a page reachable through the classiccmp website which takes into >> account things like: > > nahh. > codable in FORTRAN and a few dozen assembly languages Hmm, interesting. It's not vintage unless you can download the code and run it to find out if it's vintage or not. I like it :-) >> ... >> ... and then makes a call as to whether it will be seen by the list at large >> as on-topic or not. > > Do you have a formula to use for the algorithm? Hell, no. I came up with the idea - you guys can bash out the details :-) From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 3 18:49:19 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:49:19 -0900 Subject: Altair Basic Discussion and Calculator Forensics Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103154756.040bfeb0@pop.1and1.com> This is a discussion started off list. >Startrek might port to 680 BASIC. It runs the 8080 Tic Tac Toe program. I haven't tried loading star trek yet. It might just work out of the box. I'll find out tonight. More responses below... >There are a couple of issues that I am not too sure about. > >The 680 BASIC VERSION 1.1 REV 3.2 lable uses VERSION and REVISION. I used >mostly 300-5-C. The C and F revisions of Version 5 BASIC are the only 300 >series that work. There is a Version 5.0 that I don't remember much about. I >started with BASIC 4.1 and always thought it was the first "good" version. I >assumed all earlier versions were buggy and missing features. > >At first, I thought 680 BASIC VERSION 1.1 REV 3.2 was similar to 8080 BASIC >3.2. Now I don't know because I'm not used to working with Revision numbers. >The 300 series uses Revision letters. At this point, I don't know how the >680 and 8080 BASIC versions compare. The 680 BASIC VERSION 1.1 REV 3.2 >language and interpreter have at least one feature introduced in 8080 BASIC >4.0. > >The term "regular BASIC" is ambigous. There are several versions of BASIC. >Which ones are "regular"? The term BASIC can refer to the language or the >interpreter. When someone refers to 8K BASIC, the size is obvious and a set >of language features is assumed. Disk Extended BASIC adds language features, >bug fixes, and major internal changes. Do all 8K BASICS support the same >languages and syntax. > >The term "patches" could be accurate, but I'm more comfortable with version >and revision. The label MITS ALTAIR 680 BASIC VERSION 1.1 REV 3.2 may be a >port of 8K BASIC. What version and revision of 8K BASIC? The examples below >show the same lable on two two sizes of interpreter. MITS should have >changed the lables. > >I don't know which 680 BASIC VERSION 1.1 REV 3.2 came first. Do they both >translate the same exact language? The obvious guess would be that the paper >tape interpreter has the CSAVE command removed or disabled. It could also be >that the smaller BASIC supports the older CSAVE syntax. It could also be >that the bigger version has changes and someone forgot to bump the revision >number. I think non KCACR came first. The KCACR doesn't seem very popular. Its not even in a lot of the -system- documentation. What could we do to determine if the basics are the same? This would tell us the math function similarity... http://www.rskey.org/~mwsebastian/miscprj/forensics.htm I could run the forensics on the Altair32 emulator and on both versions of the 680 basic. If it matches up with any of the 8080 basics then we've found the "version" of 8080 basic used as a starting point. >Does CSAVE work if you load the paper tape version into a machine with a >cassette interface? Nope. Not with any of the syntax changes either. Grant From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jan 3 18:49:18 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 00:49:18 +0000 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C3AC6.3090103@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/1/07 23:22, "Sridhar Ayengar" wrote: > Can you say that an early '60's Corvette isn't a classic because they > still make the Corvette today? Come on. Hm, the current 'vette does nothing for me because it had to conform to current US design rules, the original now looks ugly to me thanks to a recent showing on a UK TV advert for car insurance... Help! I'm growing old, but not, at the same time! :) Alpha, OTOH, for me, will always be groundbreaking technology because I was involved with it from the beginning; maybe that's why I don't think about Chevy stuff the same way? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 18:56:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:56:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C4D6F.4060200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <581355.63482.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> We need a page reachable through the classiccmp > website which takes into > >> account things like: > > > > nahh. > > codable in FORTRAN and a few dozen assembly > languages > > Hmm, interesting. It's not vintage unless you can > download the code and run it > to find out if it's vintage or not. I like it :-) Say what? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 3 19:01:20 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:01:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070103165901.Y60274@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, for home comuputers, maybe (the DIN connector [1], another horrible > thing, beaten only by the mini-DIN IMHO, was not at all common on larger > machines . But the DB25 was already well-established for RS232 serial > connections at that point. > [1] I don't know the date of that either, but Philips had DIN connectors > on tape recoerders in the mid 1960s. My father had a Telefunken "High Fi" from the 50s that had some DINs. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Jan 3 19:06:22 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:06:22 -0800 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage Message-ID: <887928ddeb6ec7eaaa8872e1057a14fc@valleyimplants.com> Well- Sun4u is still in production, and it doesn't have any "first" cachets like the Ultra1, E10k, etc. so I sort of see where Jay's going. Older Sun4 machines (4m 4d 4c -4) would probably be ontopic, though. SGI 4Ds (loosest definition, all MIPS based machines rather than the strict definition of from the 4D/60 to the introduction of ARCS PROMs) are probably fair game now, given that the line has been discontinued effective Dec 31. Newish Alphas and HP-9000s are probably a bit shady, though, since they're still in (semi) production, but not pushed, so they could be on. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jan 3 19:08:51 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 20:08:51 -0500 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <20070104004510.91994.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070104004510.91994.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200701032008.51124.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 19:45, Chris M wrote: > --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > But the R4x00 was 32-bit... > > > > Pat > > No it's not Pat, read the previous post. Sheesh. Actually, I'm half right. The 4400 and 4600 ARE 32-bit, and are the only R4x00 variants I've ever seen. According to Wikipedia, the R4000 itself was 64-bit, but I've never seen one in the wild. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 19:21:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:21:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: yet another Cat *purr* on ePay *meow* Message-ID: <566983.924.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-CAT-computer-Jef-Raskin-PRE-Macintosh-MAC-HISTORY_W0QQitemZ300066150418QQihZ020QQcategoryZ80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem listed under Apple/Macintosh category. Don't know if that'll make a difference, I don't search by categories myself. Not as nice as the last one (or mine woohoo). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 3 19:23:50 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:23:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mac OS vintage (was: Re: Sun E450 server officially vintage) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Jan 03, 2007 04:00:41 PM Message-ID: <200701040123.l041NoXr003557@onyx.spiritone.com> > The Mac OS category in the same program says the same thing, > giving requirements as follows: > > 7.1 68000 or later, 2 MB RAM, 4 MB hard drive > 7.5 68000 or later, 4 MB RAM, 21 MB hard drive > 7.6 32-bit clean 68030 or later, 8 MB RAM, 40-120 MB hard drive > 8.0/1 68040 or later, 12 MB RAM, 195 MB hard drive > 8.5 PPC, 16 MB RAM, 150-250 MB hard drive > 8.6 PPC, 24 MB RAM, 190-250 MB hard drive > > Wow. Looking back, it's amazing how fast requirements shot > up. I'm really glad I sort of sat out that period as far as buying > computers. Our main home system was a Mac Plus until we leapfrogged Remember how fast CPU's shot up during that time period, even on the Mac side of things. Memory increases had a lot to do with it as well. 7.5 is where TCP/IP really started getting used, so that might effect it as well. The OS changed significantly during these releases. My first Mac was a PowerBook 520c, it shipped with 7.1 installed, and images of 7.5.x on the HD. With only 4MB RAM base, you didn't want to run 7.5, with 20MB RAM, it ran OK. IIRC, my PowerMac 8500/180 that I got a year later shipped with some version of 7.5 as well. Additionally, I can't even imagine running these OS's with that little RAM. Zane From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jan 3 19:27:06 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:27:06 -0800 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701031727.06449.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 13:18, Richard wrote: > Any other Onyx owners on the list? I have an RE2 (in storage) and in my "shop" an Infinite Reality [w/(4)195MHz processors, 1.5GB RAM, Sirius Video, ASO Audio, Dual 64MB RMs, 8 Channel DG]. I love my IR ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Jan 3 19:27:05 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:27:05 -0800 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage Message-ID: > Eric J Korpela wrote: >> Even though it may be a collectible, it's not quite vintage. Yet. >> Things branded "Sun 4," I think would count, as would various >> SPARCstations and Solbournes. Has any 64-bit microprocessor been >> declared officially vintage yet? > > I already mentioned the Alpha 21064, but I believe the MIPS R4000 was > even earlier. > > Peace... Sridhar Well, we're talking three things: processor architectures, processors, and systems. The 21064 is definitely on-topic, as are the early AXP systems (DEC 3000/4000/7000) The basic Alpha architecture is probably irrelevant, because I have never heard a discussion about architectures as being on or off topic, generally discussions of that nature are sufficiently technical to pass. The R4000 is an interesting case, because the chip predates the 21064, but (a) early versions could not run 64-bit since they had a bug in the MIPS-III instructions and (b) no R4000/R4400 systems were 64-bit capable until the Onyx in 1993 unless I've missed something. In short, therefore, the 64-bit potential of the R4000 arrived first, but 21064 realized a 64-bit system first. Take that how you will. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 3 19:29:38 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:29:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <00d701c72f90$efc500d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at Jan 03, 2007 08:40:01 PM Message-ID: <200701040129.l041TcF5003643@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > There is something to be said for older slower Sun's. While my current > > SunBlade 1000 (dual 750Mhz UltraSparc III) system is surprisingly quiet, > > it's the largest system besides my PDP-11/73 that I have at home (I do > > have > > larger). Additionally it sucks a *LOT* of power, and generates a *LOT* of > > heat. > > *LOT* of power translates to how much amperes/hour? :o) > For the SunBlade 1000: http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/SunBlade1000/spec.html AC input 100 - 240 VAC, 47 - 63 Hz, 8 A(max), 0.875 KVA Input power 670 W Heat output 2286 BTU/hr Zane From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 19:34:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 18:34:35 -0700 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:27:06 -0800. <200701031727.06449.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: In article <200701031727.06449.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, Lyle Bickley writes: > On Wednesday 03 January 2007 13:18, Richard wrote: > > > Any other Onyx owners on the list? > > I have an RE2 (in storage) and in my "shop" an Infinite Reality [w/(4)195MHz > processors, 1.5GB RAM, Sirius Video, ASO Audio, Dual 64MB RMs, 8 Channel DG]. > > I love my IR ;-) Lyle, it sounds like you have exactly the same Onyx setup I just acquired! Onyx RE2, dunno the exact config yet Onyx IR, Sirius Video, dunno what else yet exactly :-) When I saw the Sirius Video box being auctioned in one lot, I gambled that the Onyx had the Sirius board inside it (and it did). This came from a TV station sale so I figured that it was used for digital video editing or the weather overlay presentation or some such. The Onyx has a couple SCSI drives, a Jaz drive, an 8mm tape drive and a CD-ROM drive occupying all the bays. I see the Sirius rack mount box on ebay sans the interface card quite a bit. (Don't you find it simultaneously funny *and* sad when people yank the peripherals and discard the cables and interface card? I mean, the peripheral box is probably worthless without the interface card and vice-versa considering that these are typically custom interface cards.) The TV station Onyx has lint on all the air vents telling me that this machine was on pretty much all the time :-). It will need a good disassembling and cleaning/inspection before I power it on and see what happens. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 19:36:06 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 18:36:06 -0700 Subject: Archiving workstation hard drives Message-ID: OK, suppose you have a workstation and it has stuff installed on its drives. You don't have the original distribution media for the OS and any installed applications and you don't have a spare system with the same stuff installed. What's the best way to make a backup of the entire hard drive so that the essential software doesn't get lost? The drives are SCSI. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 3 19:41:36 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:41:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Archiving workstation hard drives In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 03, 2007 06:36:06 PM Message-ID: <200701040141.l041fa72003944@onyx.spiritone.com> > OK, suppose you have a workstation and it has stuff installed on its > drives. You don't have the original distribution media for the OS and > any installed applications and you don't have a spare system with the > same stuff installed. > > What's the best way to make a backup of the entire hard drive so that > the essential software doesn't get lost? > > The drives are SCSI. If by workstation you mean Unix, I should think that hooking them up to a more modern system with SCSI and using 'dd' to copy them to an image file would be a good start. Ideally though you're going to need to determine the model of HD, and get some extras. Basically you have a bad problem there, and should do the 'dd' portion ASAP. Mentioning the specific type of workstation and OS might allow some better advice. Zane From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Jan 3 19:41:43 2007 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:41:43 -0800 Subject: ALERT: Boeing Surplus, Cheap Workstations Message-ID: <200701031741430682.139221A0@192.168.42.129> This is directed mainly to ClassicCmp folk in or near the Puget Sound region. While at Boeing Surplus this afternoon, I noticed that there were having what amounts to a 'Blowout Sale' on SGI Indigo and Octane workstations. These systems are, as far as I know from talking to their computer guy, complete except for the hard drive (although the Sun Ultra 10 I bought still had the drive in it, admittedly blanked). Here's the best part: The price -- $1.00 Each. No, that's not a typo. One measley dollar for an SGI Octane, Indigo, or a Sun Ultra 10. Now the bad news -- Their computer guy tells me that they need to clear shelf space for a bunch of incoming Dell systems. If said Dells happen to come in tomorrow (Thursday, Jan. 4th), all the Octanes, Indigos, and other non-PC's will ALL be THROWN OUT. So -- If you want to take a crack at getting an ultra-cheap system, I would strongly recommend stopping at Boeing Surplus on Thursday. They're at 20651 84th Ave. S, Kent, WA 98032, open from 11:00 - 17:00 PST. I landed an Ultra-10 myself. Happy scrounging. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 3 19:43:57 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 19:43:57 -0600 Subject: Archiving workstation hard drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C5BDD.8010204@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > OK, suppose you have a workstation and it has stuff installed on its > drives. You don't have the original distribution media for the OS and > any installed applications and you don't have a spare system with the > same stuff installed. > > What's the best way to make a backup of the entire hard drive so that > the essential software doesn't get lost? > > The drives are SCSI. dd if=/dev/sda0 of=/some/filesystem/with/enough/space Seriously! Copies the entire thing, sector by sector, to a file. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Jan 3 19:48:11 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:48:11 -0800 Subject: Missing Bits Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03669F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> In the mid-80's when I first moved to Silicon Valley, I worked for Fujitsu Computer Products. I (and my support engineers) went around the Valley to various companies installing Hard Drives. Recently, I've been trying to write up some of those experiences and found that I have almost nothing on a lot of the companies. And I see that bitsavers doesn't have much either. Does anybody remember or know anything about: Daisy Systems - Design Automation stuff Arix or later, Arete - Unix systems for government sites Pixel - Unix systems California Computer Corporation - Training systems General Computer - 16 and 32 bit CPUs System Industries - Controller PCBs DEC compatible Intertest - Design Automation And one that is driving me crazy, a company that supplied Ada systems to the military. Was first based in Mt. View, then moved to San Jose into one of the old Amdahl buildings. I can visualize the people and systems but can't remember the name. Getting old sucks. I'd love to hear about anyone's experience with any of these companies and especially if any documents or hardware survived. And I'm especially interested in ARIX. It was a very unusual company, and obliquely mentioned in the 6 part TV series on Silicon Valley. Billy From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 3 19:48:40 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:48:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103153045.0366ad18@pop.1and1.com> References: <4affc5e0701031228s71546a0dp27634b59d1d3b052@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20070102222341.039353f8@pop.1and1.com> <459B9B41.30906@yahoo.co.uk> <5.2.1.1.0.20070103111648.03480e08@pop.1and1.com> <4affc5e0701031228s71546a0dp27634b59d1d3b052@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070103153045.0366ad18@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > This causes a stress crack in the Plexiglas, which encourages some of the > electrons to exit. This tears a track in the Plexiglas, which permits more > of the electrons to come out. The electrons coming out tear/rip a path in > the Plexiglas just as lightning tears a path in the air leaving behind a > witness path, such as you see in the pictures. And like lightning the > process is accompanied by a loud bang and a flash. The Plexiglas continues > to 'sparkle' with bright blue 'sprits' running along the small branches for > several minutes. It is truly a beautiful appearance.....at least in MY > opinion! > > This plus the final pattern (which is obviously different every time) is > great at entertaining the multitude. Here's something along those lines that yields a permanent piece of art: (main page www.teslamania.com) http://205.243.100.155/frames/interesting.html. Basic process: Irradiate a block of plexiglass with an electron beam from a particle accelerator to build up a high static charge. Then carefully touch the block with a grounded metal spike to cause a discharge, leaving feathery branches of "frozen lightning" behind. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jan 3 19:50:06 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:50:06 -0500 Subject: Archiving workstation hard drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C5D4E.4050802@arachelian.com> First fill the empty space on it with zeros, remove the file with the zeros, unmount it, then dd the whole disk, and pipe it to gzip. Make sure that you use the proper device name that will grab the whole disk, bootsector, partition table, and all. i.e. dd if=/dev/zero of=/mnt/junk bs=65536 rm /mnt/junk umount /mnt dd if=/dev/dsk/c0t1d0s2 | bzip2 -9 >/somewhere-else/disk.dd.gz Richard wrote: > OK, suppose you have a workstation and it has stuff installed on its > drives. You don't have the original distribution media for the OS and > any installed applications and you don't have a spare system with the > same stuff installed. > > What's the best way to make a backup of the entire hard drive so that > the essential software doesn't get lost? > > The drives are SCSI. > From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Jan 3 19:58:44 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:58:44 -0800 Subject: Missing Bit Redux Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A0@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Billy wrote: And one that is driving me crazy, a company that supplied Ada systems to the military. Was first based in Mt. View, then moved to San Jose into one of the old Amdahl buildings. I can visualize the people and systems but can't remember the name. Getting old sucks. Of course as soon as I clicked send, the name came to me - Rational Systems. Anybody remember them or have any of their systems? Billy From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jan 3 20:00:51 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:00:51 -0800 Subject: Archiving workstation hard drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701031800.52297.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 17:36, Richard wrote: > OK, suppose you have a workstation and it has stuff installed on its > drives. You don't have the original distribution media for the OS and > any installed applications and you don't have a spare system with the > same stuff installed. > > What's the best way to make a backup of the entire hard drive so that > the essential software doesn't get lost? > > The drives are SCSI. Richard, If you're talking about the Onyx - you can, as usual w/*NIX, use "tar" to backup everything to tape or another storage media (attached or via NFS). I suggest you create a duplicate system disk. If you use the same size disk, you can use "dd", which will copy the boot blocks, etc. Make sure the destination disk is "clean" (has no bad blocks). With any SGI, it's good to have a bootable OS CD set, preferably V6.5. That way you can recreate a system HD from "scratch", etc. BTW: for lots of good technical info on all SGI products and drivers (which are not included in the standard CD sets) see: http://vintagecomputers.info/ Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 3 20:01:36 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:01:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mac OS vintage (was: Re: Sun E450 server officially vintage) In-Reply-To: <200701040123.l041NoXr003557@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jan 3, 7 05:23:50 pm" Message-ID: <200701040201.l0421aXs019162@floodgap.com> > My first Mac was a PowerBook 520c, it shipped with 7.1 installed, and images > of 7.5.x on the HD. With only 4MB RAM base, you didn't want to run 7.5, > with 20MB RAM, it ran OK. IIRC, my PowerMac 8500/180 that I got a year > later shipped with some version of 7.5 as well. > > Additionally, I can't even imagine running these OS's with that little RAM. Actually, 7.1 will run fine in 2MB -- I ran a Plus that way. 4MB is better (my IIsi). 24MB is very, very nice ;) (my playbox IIci). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Eight tries. The number is ... seven." ------------------------------------ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 3 20:05:55 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:05:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: ALERT: Boeing Surplus, Cheap Workstations In-Reply-To: <200701031741430682.139221A0@192.168.42.129> from "Bruce Lane" at Jan 03, 2007 05:41:43 PM Message-ID: <200701040205.l0425tSp004573@onyx.spiritone.com> > Here's the best part: The price -- $1.00 Each. No, that's not a > typo. One measley dollar for an SGI Octane, Indigo, or a Sun Ultra > 10. Argh!!! You really know how to hurt a person! I wouldn't mind an Octane at that price, but there is no way I can get up there to pick one up. Oh, well, it's not like I have room for one, or even need it. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 3 20:07:20 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:07:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Missing Bit Redux In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A0@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> from "Billy Pettit" at Jan 03, 2007 05:58:44 PM Message-ID: <200701040207.l0427KNw004597@onyx.spiritone.com> > Billy wrote: > And one that is driving me crazy, a company that supplied Ada systems to the > military. Was first based in Mt. View, then moved to San Jose into one of > the old Amdahl buildings. I can visualize the people and systems but can't > remember the name. Getting old sucks. > > > Of course as soon as I clicked send, the name came to me - Rational Systems. > Anybody remember them or have any of their systems? > > Billy Have you googled? That name sounds really familiar, are you sure they aren't still doing Ada stuff? Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 3 20:11:14 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:11:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: My first Mac In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jan 3, 7 11:11:10 pm" Message-ID: <200701040211.l042BE0F013642@floodgap.com> > I'll ocnfirm the Mac Plus has the RJ11 connetor for the keyboard and a > DE9 for the mouse (but miniDIN-8 conenctors for the serial ports, I > thought the older machines had DE9s for those too). They do. The Plus was the first one with mini-DIN serial ports. > > connectors for the keyboard and DE9s for the mouse. Later Macs (SE > > and newer, up until USB) and probably the Apple IIGS had ADB > > peripherals - the connector looks much like an S-Video connector - > > mini-DIN with 4 pins and, IIRC, a plastic tab in the male connectors > > to trip a switch (termination?) inside the female connectors when > > plugged together. > > Does it? I know the 3 pin miniDIN used on the Localtalk network has a > switch in the socket that conencts a terminating resistor, and which is > openned when the plug is inserted, but I've never seen any evidence of > this on ADB. But admittedly I've never tried to trace out schematics of > an ADB'ed Mac. I'm not aware of this either. In fact, my "force reboot" dongle is just an S-video cable bought from WalMart with the reset pin hardwired to ground and no special business otherwise. It works just fine. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Just another Sojourner of the Dispersion (1 Peter 1:1) --------------------- From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Jan 3 20:12:27 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:12:27 -0800 Subject: Missing Bit Redux Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A1@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: Have you googled? That name sounds really familiar, are you sure they aren't still doing Ada stuff? Zane ------------------ Yes, there still do softwware. But in the late 80's, they made complete systems, designing all their own hardware. That's what I'm trying to find. Billy From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 3 20:15:09 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:15:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Missing Bit Redux In-Reply-To: <200701040207.l0427KNw004597@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jan 3, 7 06:07:20 pm" Message-ID: <200701040215.l042F9XC016170@floodgap.com> > > And one that is driving me crazy, a company that supplied Ada systems to the > > military. Was first based in Mt. View, then moved to San Jose into one of > > the old Amdahl buildings. I can visualize the people and systems but can't > > remember the name. Getting old sucks. > > Of course as soon as I clicked send, the name came to me - Rational Systems. > > Anybody remember them or have any of their systems? > Have you googled? That name sounds really familiar, are you sure they > aren't still doing Ada stuff? I remember a Rational Systems from DOS/4GW, the 32-bit DPMI extender that was used a lot in the days before Win95 (DOOM, for example). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Computers aren't intelligent. They just think they are. -------------------- From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Jan 3 20:17:27 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:17:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Missing Bit Redux In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A0@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <665053.75048.qm@web83006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Billy Pettit wrote: > Of course as soon as I clicked send, the name came > to me - Rational Systems. > Anybody remember them or have any of their systems? Rational developed an integrated Ada development environment, very advanced for its time, that ran on dedicated hardware. They later produced workstation-hosted environments for Ada and C/C++. They are probably best known for their CASE and modelling tools, e.g., Rational Rose, and for the work of Grady Booch (UML). They acquired Pure-Atria in 1997, adding Purify and Clearcase to their stable. IBM bought Rational a few years back, but apparently are still using the Rational brand. --Bill Software From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 3 20:16:17 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:16:17 -0600 Subject: Archiving workstation hard drives In-Reply-To: <459C5D4E.4050802@arachelian.com> References: <459C5D4E.4050802@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070103201501.07b5b8d0@mail> At 07:50 PM 1/3/2007, you wrote: >First fill the empty space on it with zeros, remove the file with the >zeros, What? And potentially erase all those yet un-deleted files? :-) >unmount it, then dd the whole disk, and pipe it to gzip. And with the size and price of hard drives today, why bother with compression? Especially if you want to mount the image in an emulator. - John From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 3 20:20:24 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 18:20:24 -0800 Subject: Rational Message-ID: <459C6468.6080304@bitsavers.org> Yes, there still do softwware. But in the late 80's, they made complete systems, designing all their own hardware. That's what I'm trying to find. -- CHM just got a system w/o docs a month or so ago Did you mean Arete? We have one, and it ran a version of Unix called Arix. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 3 20:28:25 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:28:25 -0600 Subject: Archiving workstation hard drives In-Reply-To: <459C5D4E.4050802@arachelian.com> References: <459C5D4E.4050802@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <459C6649.9090202@yahoo.co.uk> Ray Arachelian wrote: > First fill the empty space on it with zeros, remove the file with the > zeros, unmount it, then dd the whole disk, and pipe it to gzip. Usual warnings about compressing anything that's a 'critical' archive presumably apply (I'm not sure how good gzip is at recovering from errors, but most compression schemes seem pretty bad) Sadly I'm drowning in raw disk backups here because software and/or OS media to allow "proper" backups for various systems has long gone :-( Incidentally, I've had some successes in the past in migrating 'alien' OS installs from failing drives to new ones via raw data copies; often the OS doesn't care if a raw backup is restored onto a larger disk - it'll just see lots of wasted space at the end of the drive. Some OSes will record drive geometry somewhere in their partition data structures though, and may rely on it at some stage, so: a) If the system's in a runnable state, search for any info you can find on the disk layout (gleaned from man pages for the format/partitioning programs, C header files etc.) and keep them in plain text outside of the raw drive backup. b) Make sure you have a note at least of the drive make / model, and preferably any info you can find on geometry, transfer times etc. ... that way if the drive does go bang you aren't left scratching around for an identical replacement. It's also useful knowing the partition format in case you might want to try mounting the filesystem(s) on a more modern system at some point (e.g. dd the raw partition out of the drive image and mount it as a filesystem using a loopback device under linux) > dd if=/dev/dsk/c0t1d0s2 Worth having conv=noerror,sync in there too, just in case the disk is getting a little tired. Actually, sometimes subsequent re-reads will be successful for bad blocks - I've hacked together scripts before that auto-retry failed blocks several times just to see if the source drive can eventually be coaxed into supplying data. Oh, some systems store data on disk in byte-swapped order (my NCR tower's one). Not relevant for a raw backup / restore, but it's just a gotcha to look out for if you want to try interpreting data on a modern system (or even just browsing in a hex / text editor) cheers Jules From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 3 20:59:26 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:59:26 -0900 Subject: Altair Basic Discussion and Calculator Forensics In-Reply-To: <000001c72fa0$ff7fb1e0$9b36a8c0@Phoenix55> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103151529.035400b8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103170913.015a9800@pop.1and1.com> At 04:38 PM 1/3/2007, you wrote: >At this point, I would just use the cassette version, unless I needed the >extra memory. I would be tempted to patch the ID text. I might change >"VERSION" to "VER PT " and "VER CT ". It's not original, but could avoid >confusion. Is it not possible that the only difference between the paper tape and cassette is the CSAVE and CLOAD commands? (as well as --KCACR-- in the opening text) I think we need a memory image of unloaded paper tape and unloaded cassette basic to compare. Hopefully it is "patched" in a way that makes few differences. Or maybe the commands were just activated... >Next, I would build a BASIC version timeline based on reading all issues of >Computer Notes in chronological order. That would be a good time to make >hardware timelines and copy info about software and hardware changes. > >Now you see why I collect the newest Altairs. I can assume I have the most >powerful debugged MITS products. I wasn't in a hurry for the 680 because I >always needed drives for development and business software. As a collector, >I appreciate the weight and size and the opportunity to learn the M6800 at >the bit and ASM level. > > >The KCACR doesn't seem very popular. > >I need a better timeline on the 680 and Pertec acquisition. After looking at >some issues of Computer Notes, I see that the 680 was around for awhile. >Pertec purchased a lot of problems when the bought MITS. They may have >killed the 680 just as the KCACR was finished. The documentation was not >updated and few people got new KCACR. Some 680 owners may be industrial and >not interested in cassettes. Much of my stuff and a lot from eBay auctions >came from Albuquerque after MITS closed. The component or product may not >have reached many MITS customers. > >The KCACR is popular with me. I have two and a new reason to use the 680. >I've avoided cassettes on the 8800. Now I have a smaller platform to use for >learning. The 680 may lack software, but BASIC makes it easier write more. >There are good books on the 6800 with small code examples. A 33K 680 with >BASIC and switches with lights could keep someone busy for awhile. > > >What could we do to determine if the basics are the same? This would tell >us the math function similarity... > >I think that is too much detail for now. I'd just use the newest version >that would fit in memory with my application. So far I only have two software applications for the 680. Even if they are the same except for two commands. ; ) > >I could run the forensics on the Altair32 emulator and on both versions of > >the 680 basic. If it matches up with any of the 8080 basics then we've > >found the "version" of 8080 basic used as a starting point. > >Interesting idea. I'd start with Reading Computer Notes. It would only prove anything if all the 8800 basics have different finger prints. The disk basics could have the same fingerprint and we wouldn't care about that, I think. This doesn't rule out bug fixes in all non math areas... >I hope you find someone with additional software. Did you find a KCACR >manual? I don't have one and haven't checked Steve's list. I will look at >pricelists and see what is listed for the 680. I'm sure I will. Steve has the manuals. I'm making a big list for him. : ) Grant From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 3 21:08:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 19:08:12 -0800 Subject: Missing Bit Redux In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A1@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A1@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <459BFF1C.19980.22A50F2@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jan 2007 at 18:12, Billy Pettit wrote: > Yes, there still do softwware. But in the late 80's, they made complete > systems, designing all their own hardware. That's what I'm trying to find. Are you certain it was Rational? AFAIK, they've always been a Natick, Mass. languages outfit (they certainly were in 1987). Was that one of the buildings near San Tomas and Central expressways (Lawson Lane??) (it'd be Santa Clara, not San Jose, then). Dunno, you've got me stumped. I Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 21:29:41 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:29:41 -0700 Subject: Archiving workstation hard drives In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:41:36 -0800. <200701040141.l041fa72003944@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200701040141.l041fa72003944 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > Mentioning the specific type of workstation and OS might allow some better > advice. ESV which runs RISC/os (MIPS version of some version of unix; SysV I think? Its weird, it has both SysV and BSD headers when you compile.) I may have OS distributions on QIC, now that I think of it. But at the time I was more giddy about getting the hardware to think about media for applications. I have a QIC for Mathematica. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 21:38:19 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:38:19 -0700 Subject: Archiving workstation hard drives In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:50:06 -0500. <459C5D4E.4050802@arachelian.com> Message-ID: In article <459C5D4E.4050802 at arachelian.com>, Ray Arachelian writes: > dd if=/dev/zero of=/mnt/junk bs=65536 > rm /mnt/junk > umount /mnt > dd if=/dev/dsk/c0t1d0s2 | bzip2 -9 >/somewhere-else/disk.dd.gz Nice! Presumably this can be done by taking the disk out of the existing system and attaching it to a SCSI bus on another system? Also, presumably I'd use the device name that is the "raw" disk device. Isn't that what unix typically called it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 21:42:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:42:12 -0700 Subject: Missing Bit Redux In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:58:44 -0800. <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A0@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: In article <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A0 at wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, "Billy Pettit" writes: > Of course as soon as I clicked send, the name came to me - Rational > Systems. Anybody remember them or have any of their systems? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jan 3 21:48:49 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 22:48:49 -0500 Subject: Archiving workstation hard drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C7921.6060201@arachelian.com> Yup! Even nicer, if you have ssh setup (or rsh, yuck) you can actually dump it to another machine: dd if=/dev/whatever | bzip -9 | ssh otherhost "dd of=/bigdrive/mydisk.dd.bz2" I'm not sure that slice2 on a sun machine will include the boot sector, but it will include the partition table, so you'll want to get details for whatever system you're running. I'm not sure that you'll want to use the raw device name there however. Another choice would be ufsdump or whatever it's called on your system (possibly fsdump or just dump.) Richard wrote: > In article <459C5D4E.4050802 at arachelian.com>, > Ray Arachelian writes: > > >> dd if=/dev/zero of=/mnt/junk bs=65536 >> rm /mnt/junk >> umount /mnt >> dd if=/dev/dsk/c0t1d0s2 | bzip2 -9 >/somewhere-else/disk.dd.gz >> > > Nice! > > Presumably this can be done by taking the disk out of the existing > system and attaching it to a SCSI bus on another system? > > Also, presumably I'd use the device name that is the "raw" disk > device. Isn't that what unix typically called it? > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 21:58:21 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:58:21 -0700 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion Message-ID: Does anyone have a machine with an Clipper RISC cpu in it? Wikipedia says that only two companies ever used the Clipper (from Fairchild) were Intergraph and High Level Hardware. HLH I never heard of before; Intergraph I know of because they're big in CAD and GIS markets. Ah, WikiP says that HLF was UK firm that made the Orion. Anyone got one? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 3 22:03:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:03:15 -0700 Subject: Archiving workstation hard drives In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 22:48:49 -0500. <459C7921.6060201@arachelian.com> Message-ID: In article <459C7921.6060201 at arachelian.com>, Ray Arachelian writes: > Another choice would be ufsdump or whatever it's called on your system > (possibly fsdump or just dump.) fsdump rings a bell. However, one of the systems currently has a dead power supply, I think. The other system has been in a garage environment for probably 5 years? or more, I'd have to ask the until- recently owner. What I was thinking was this: take these drives out of these systems and attach them to something unixy with a SCSI interface and dump the stuff over the network onto something I can use to write it on DVD-R. That would at least get me a backup I can use now or in a few years or whenever I get around to doing due diligence on bringing these machines back to life. I should also do this on the SGIs, but at the moment I'm more concerned about the ESVs because of the lack of OS media. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 3 22:26:56 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:26:56 -0800 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103135435.034d1bc8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: >From: Grant Stockly ---snip--- > >One of our customers did some contract work for an electronics company >once. They erased a few thousand EPROMs with their x-ray source. It was >much faster and cheaper than UV I guess. I don't know any of the details >though... > > Hi One might use this method on the OTP PROMs. Most of these were just EPROM's without windows. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Communicate instantly! Use your Hotmail address to sign into Windows Live Messenger now. http://get.live.com/messenger/overview From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 3 22:38:51 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:38:51 -0800 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103111648.03480e08@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: >From: Grant Stockly ---snip--- > >Electronics don't care if there are x-rays present when they are on any >more than when they are off. They die at the same rate. : ) > >Grant > Hi That is not totally true. Semiconductors do care. When x-rays go through a simiconductor, it creates electron/hole pairs. With no bias on these, they usually just recombine. With bias, these become current flow. To add to insult, this current can be amplified by parasitic transistors as exist in CMOS devices. This can lead to a high current run away. Snap, the magic smoke leaks out and that is the end. Now, the question is, does an airport x-ray machine create enough of this kind of current to cause damage to a biased device? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! ?MSN Shopping Sales & Deals http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200639 From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 3 23:25:00 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 20:25:00 -0900 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103111648.03480e08@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103201832.03585d70@pop.1and1.com> >That is not totally true. Semiconductors do care. When x-rays go through >a simiconductor, it creates electron/hole pairs. With no bias on these, they >usually just recombine. With bias, these become current flow. To add to >insult, this current can be amplified by parasitic transistors as exist in >CMOS >devices. This can lead to a high current run away. >Snap, the magic smoke leaks out and that is the end. >Now, the question is, does an airport x-ray machine create enough of this >kind of current to cause damage to a biased device? >Dwight Hmmm...Do you know what percentage recombine? This could explain reports of 50k rad on a device turned off and 11k rad on a device turned on. Airport machines are puny. 120-160kv and a few ma. I think you would need a TON of x-rays to actually damage a device. CCD cameras show bright dot flashes where x-rays hit the active area, but its nothing that "hurts" them quickly. It looks like snow, or the star travel type screen savers. The only electronic device ever to fail from x-rays in my experience has been those basic stamps. AVRs have held up to limited exposure to a linear accelerator and the basic stamp died after hardly anything. From rickb at bensene.com Wed Jan 3 23:31:19 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 21:31:19 -0800 Subject: Wire Rope ROMs (Was: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available) Message-ID: Brent Hilpert wrote: > > .... I'm familiar with > core-rope ROM (or at least one version of it) from attempting > to make a reader to dump the contents of a Wang calc > microcode ROM, but the AGC version sounds like the > address-decoding/word-selection is done differently (..need a > diagram). Speaking of Wang Calculator ROM's, I've recently built a fixture that I'm successfully able to read Wang 700-series ROMs with. It's unfortunately a non-automatic system...toggle switches and TIL-311 HEX displays (can automate it later), and am in the (slow) process of dumping a known good Wang 720C ROM. The ROM strobe signal timing is very tight on the 700-series ROM...off even a little bit on the timing (pulse width), and the readout gets real inconsistent. Also trying to write a microcode execution engine in Perl to run the code, but there are lots of interesting timing considerations that require deep digging into the schematics (which is something that I have little patience for...basically, I'm not very good at it) in terms of the timing of all of the register transfers in the machine. On the surface, it looks simple, just a basic 10-phase non-overlapping clock (shift register), but there's a lot of combinatorial logic that derives a lot of weird timing from the basic clock phases. So far, my attempts to execute the code I've extracted so far lead to execution of illegal instructions (all zero ROM locations), or infinte loops, and the code execution doesn't seem to make much sense. There are also some microcode instructions that aren't documented, and having to dig through schematics to figure out what they do. Wang is also famous for purposefully putting errors into published schematics to throw off competitors who would use such schematics to reverse-engineer how the machines work. So, some of my problem could be that the schematics are not necessarily an accurate representation of the actual logic. Still some tinkering to do. Still, I'm very sure that the fixture to read the ROMs is working perfectly. All ROM locations return consistent results, and other than the emulator running into all zero ROM content (there are quite a few "unused" locations in the ROM), all of the instructions decoded thus far are "valid" in terms of the allowed values of the various microcode fields. The Wang 700, 500, and 600-series machines all used this style of ROM, so, in theory, the reader (other than hardware pinout variations and subtle microcode field diffrences) should be able to be tweeked to read the 500 or 600-series ROMs without too much work. The main goal of this is to be able to capture the microcode images for as many of the Wang calculators that use this type of ROM as possible, as this technology is really unweildly to troubleshoot and repair (and I have some ROMs that are known bad that I want to try to be able to fix), and also because the genius of Harold Koplow (now deceased) is buried in that microcode. I want to preserve as much of it as I can (and maybe figure out how he made these machines do what they do) as a legacy to him. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 4 00:13:53 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 22:13:53 -0800 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103201832.03585d70@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: >From: Grant Stockly ---snip--- > >The only electronic device ever to fail from x-rays in my experience has >been those basic stamps. AVRs have held up to limited exposure to a linear >accelerator and the basic stamp died after hardly anything. > > I guess that a basic stamp wouldn't be a good device to use in a space station. I wonder what fails? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Communicate instantly! Use your Hotmail address to sign into Windows Live Messenger now. http://get.live.com/messenger/overview From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 4 00:15:11 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 23:15:11 -0700 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics (was: Wire Rope ROMs (Was: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:31:19 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > [...] Wang is also > famous for purposefully putting errors into published schematics to > throw off competitors who would use such schematics to reverse-engineer > how the machines work. [...] Wow, I'd never heard that story before. Interesting! How many other companies did this back when schematics were pretty much leaving the machine laying naked in front of you? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 4 00:16:21 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 23:16:21 -0700 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C9BB5.4000700@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: >> The only electronic device ever to fail from x-rays in my experience >> has been those basic stamps. AVRs have held up to limited exposure to >> a linear accelerator and the basic stamp died after hardly anything. > > I guess that a basic stamp wouldn't be a good device to use > in a space station. I wonder what fails? EEPROM style programing for the PROM section? > Dwight > From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Jan 4 00:39:59 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 01:39:59 -0500 Subject: Missing Bits Message-ID: <01C72FA1.5591B100@MSE_D03> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:48:11 -0800 From: "Billy Pettit" Subject: Missing Bits -------------Original Message: Recently, I've been trying to write up some of those experiences and found that I have almost nothing on a lot of the companies. And one that is driving me crazy, a company that supplied Ada systems to the military. Was first based in Mt. View, then moved to San Jose into one of the old Amdahl buildings. I can visualize the people and systems but can't remember the name. Getting old sucks. I'd love to hear about anyone's experience with any of these companies and especially if any documents or hardware survived. And I'm especially interested in ARIX. It was a very unusual company, and obliquely mentioned in the 6 part TV series on Silicon Valley. Billy -----------Reply: I worked with an Arix system years ago, and I think at least one person up here in Ontario has one; I sent him whatever Arix documentation I had left a while ago. Dave Dunfield might know better if they're still around and who has them now. mike From grant at stockly.com Thu Jan 4 00:50:56 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:50:56 -0900 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103201832.03585d70@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070103214831.03584868@pop.1and1.com> >I guess that a basic stamp wouldn't be a good device to use >in a space station. I wonder what fails? >Dwight Well, from what I remember there was a PIC microcontroller and a small EEPROM chip. I don't think it could have been the PIC because those hold right next to the AVR I mentioned. It could have been something as simple as the voltage regulator. It would power up and only rarely work. Other times it would just spasm its outputs. This wasn't an isolated case. : ( I ended up doing my first AVR machine language program because of it. : ) From grant at stockly.com Wed Jan 3 01:21:25 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:21:25 -0900 Subject: MITS Altair 680 KCACR Cassette BASIC Recovered Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070102221338.039f1928@pop.1and1.com> I thought I would post this for the search engines to latch a hold onto. I thought a second about posting a 20k e-mail, but the posts from the past hour FAR exceed that. ; ) If someone is interested in helping me "figure out" what is on the leader and footer of the tape, please request the original files. I have two. One 8bit ASCII and another forced to 7bit. This one attached has been forced to 7bit ASCII. Both files WILL load into the Altair without issue. It seems random which bytes had the 8th bit set and which didn't. Also, there is what appears to be garbage after the S0 record. I have no idea why. The tape has a bunch of 7Fs, then S0 and a bunch of garbage, and then 00s. At the end there is some garbage too. The KCACR ROM appears to ignore it. I've found this file reliably loads at 9600bps. It takes 21 seconds to load into a 680. The listing below is unmodified from an original Altair 680 tape. The garbage leader and footer have been removed. .J 0000 MEMORY SIZE? TERMINAL WIDTH? 80 WANT SIN-COS-TAN-ATN? YES 9604 BYTES FREE MITS ALTAIR 680 BASIC VERSION 1.1 REV 3.2 --KCACR-- COPYRIGHT 1976 BY MITS INC. 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rom gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jan 3 02:34:50 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 08:34:50 +0000 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <459B4AA3.DC016D9B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca>, <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> <459A4101.5608.53C6A27@cclist.sydex.com> <459B3000.79C72EDC@cs.ubc.ca> <459B3394.6010202@jetnet.ab.ca> <459B4AA3.DC016D9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <459B6AAA.8000703@gjcp.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > woodelf wrote: >> Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> And whats up with this mention of LCD displays? I didn't think there was >>> anything practical available that early, or that was going to stand up to the >>> rigours of space-flight - I have a calc with one of the first commercial LCDs >>> (1972) and it's still kind of rudimentary - slow, poor contrast, temperature sensitive... >> Doing a bit of googling on the AGC, I found that it uses electroluminescent displays. > > Yes, I'm finding those references as well. Although it seems quite early for > electroluminescent displays too, don't know of anything else that was using > them at that time, esp. in 7-seg form. I don't see why. I've seen early 1970s guitar amplifiers that use a large EL strip for the control panel backlight. It's not a huge stretch to imagine that NASA would make a display for a spaceship computer out of them a few years previously. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jan 3 07:14:37 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 08:14:37 -0500 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available Message-ID: <0JBA00HYKNADJ8OD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available > From: Brent Hilpert > Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 20:24:39 -0800 > To: General at priv-edtnaa05.telusplanet.net, > "Discussion at priv-edtnaa05.telusplanet.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> I stumbled on this document: >> >> http://klabs.org/mapld04/papers/g/g233_alonso_p.doc >> >> while wondering about AC transformer-coupled logic and discovered >> that the original idea for the Apollo guidance computer was to use AC- >> coupled (core-transistor) logic. >> >> How's that for tying two threads together? :) > >Now that was a fun read. I'm still trying to understand his description of >the core rope ROM though. I'm familiar with core-rope ROM (or at least one >version of it) from attempting to make a reader to dump the contents of a Wang >calc microcode ROM, but the AGC version sounds like the >address-decoding/word-selection is done differently (..need a diagram). cant help on core rope. >And whats up with this mention of LCD displays? I didn't think there was >anything practical available that early, or that was going to stand up to the >rigours of space-flight - I have a calc with one of the first commercial LCDs >(1972) and it's still kind of rudimentary - slow, poor contrast, temperature sensitive... My memory of LCDs is they were way too late for the AGC and the basic AGC design used either LEDs or Lamps in a 7 segment format. >(And it confirmed that the AGC was constructed from a single gate/IC type.) That statement I believe is in error. While the logic used was RTL and a single family type the logic elements for that family by the mid 60s were more diverse than just a two input NOR. My junkbox contains parts from the era and includes JK-FF, three input nor, inverter buffers, and three wide NOR parts. It is true that the 2input NOR is the fundamental RTL logic building block there was nothing to limit it to 2,3 or 4 inputs for the die size of the time other than the hermetic flat packs of the day were typically 8/10/12 pins. Examples of mid 60s RTL. ul900 buffer inverter uL914 dual two input nor uL923 jk-ff uL925 dual 2 input nor gate expander (914 withput collector resistor). These were widely available and purchaseable by hobbists in 1967 at reasonable prices, typically under $2.00US. Most ham/electronics magazines had DMM and frequency counter projects using these parts by or during 1968. History of transistor computers by that time frame had already proven that a minimal set of logic blocks made general computer design easier. The TX1 and TX2 could stand as foundation machines on that basis alone. Those bocks were an inverter(buffer), NOR or NAND, and a register (FF). Any more specialized parts were likely used for core or other very limited use parts of a computer. RTL is old, some of the peices I have are now reaching 40! Allison From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Wed Jan 3 12:15:11 2007 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:15:11 -0600 Subject: Anyone else here do AS/400? Message-ID: I'm not entirely sure if this is off topic yet(hence why I put it on cctalk), but I know on a hobbyist level it's fairly rare. On Saturday I'll be picking up an AS/400 model 9406-600 originally purchased September 1997 with all the software and docs, licences etc that were ever used with the machine, from the original owner. I've contacted IBM and arranged license transfer (there was thankfully no charge) Does anyone else here deal with AS/400, or have a lingering interest in it? Secondly, I'm thinking of connecting a classic IBM terminal to it such as a 5251 S/34 term instead of the one that comes with it (something fairly modern, not sure of the model yet) I am curious; are any limitations on what I can connect, or are all twinax terminals pretty equal from a connectivity standpoint? From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jan 3 15:26:18 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:26:18 +0000 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: <459C15A8.4050006@yahoo.co.uk> References: <459C15A8.4050006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <459C1F7A.4000201@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > operational noise level My PDP-11 is quieter than my PC, unless I fire up the RL02s... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jan 3 15:29:10 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:29:10 +0000 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge In-Reply-To: <002d01c72f6c$0d575870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <002d01c72f6c$0d575870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <459C2026.7020908@gjcp.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > My objection isn't to the actual word "Jew" but to your casual use of it to > replace "You" for no good reason. Aw, grow up. I've got to put up with my faith having the piss taken out of it, what makes the Jews special? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jan 3 15:34:25 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:34:25 +0000 Subject: [OT] Network question In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070103075043.07f6f610@mail> References: <4598F205.7933.1FE144@cclist.sydex.com> <459AC6F3.2060601@gjcp.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20070103075043.07f6f610@mail> Message-ID: <459C2161.5030301@gjcp.net> John Foust wrote: > At 02:56 PM 1/2/2007, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> The maddening thing is that there's a local wireless net provider here with excellent pricing. I can see their transmitter tower two hills over from my window, but they nothing pointing in my direction nor do they plan to. And cable doesn't exist out here in the boonies. >> Rent a spot on the tower, and provide your own feed. How far a path is it? A couple of Orthogon Geminis will give you near-LOS connections up to around 20Mbps, for somewhere in the region of $6000. > > And far cheaper WiFi equipment could match the speed of the residential Internet > connection you'd likely want to pay for. (Maybe $600 total: two each of Senao > bridges, 29 dB mesh antenna, cables would reach 4-5 miles.) The easiest and > cheapest route is to ask the ISP how many subscribers they'd need to have in > your direction before they'd consider adding more equipment. Then go find > those customers for them. That's ok with one or two computers hanging off them. As soon as the connection get anything like busy they will have problems. Consumer kit just isn't designed for that kind of thing. Gordon From W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de Wed Jan 3 12:18:22 2007 From: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 19:18:22 +0100 Subject: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; 211bsd runs on systems without FPP Message-ID: <459BF36E.5040100@gsi.de> A note to all 2.11bsd users: Some time ago I looked into running 2.11bsd on systems without floating point unit. The release notes state that this is untested and unsupported, and indeed it didn't work. Robin Birch some time ago fixed part of the issues, see patch 434, but still the kernel paniced when the very first program was started. I managed to localize and fix the problem in sys/pdp/mch_fpsim.s. Steven Schultz right away issued 2.11BSD patch #445. All patches up to and including 445 are provided by Steven under ftp://sg-1.ims.ideas.gd-ais.com/pub/2.11BSD A patch level 445 system will now boot on simh for example on a set cpu 11/70 nofpp 4m configuration and work just fine, albeit a little slower. It should thus also work on a real 11/70 without FPP. I heard of some 11/70 with non-working FPP's, so this maybe good news for the owners. With best regards, Walter Mueller -- Dr. Walter F.J. M?ller Mail: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de GSI, Abteilung KP3 Phone: +49-6159-71-2766 D-64291 Darmstadt FAX: +49-6159-71-3762 URL: http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/ From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jan 3 15:21:45 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:21:45 +0000 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <200701032117.l03LHXsj027113@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200701032117.l03LHXsj027113@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <459C1E69.4000906@gjcp.net> Brad Parker wrote: > "Joachim Thiemann" wrote: >> Actually, I've been wondering: What is the effect of x-rays on EPROMS? > > I was always told it could flip bits. But that was older UV erasable > types. I'd would be interested to know if that is really true... > > (I'm having a flash back to wrapping eproms in tin-foil when flying > prototype game carts and coin-op games out to the west coast. probably > just paranoid, but we did that) > > now days I just wear the tin-foil as a hat :-) > > -brad > A friend of mine brought a Spectrum back from Saudi Arabia when they were still very very new. It didn't survive the trip. I often wondered if airport X-rays had toasted the already-fragile ULA. Gordon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 4 02:02:17 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 00:02:17 -0800 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage References: <200701032147.l03Ll0bO030875@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <459CB481.74971FE1@cs.ubc.ca> David Griffith wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > number of times system has inflicted injuries on the owner > > > > > > That seems reasonable - I'm sure we all agree every QBUS enclosure > > > ever produced is on topic :-) :-) > > > > I don't believe I've ever been injured by a Q-Bus enclosure. You just need > > to be careful! :^) I can't remember loosing any skin, even on a BA23. > > Granted most of the time I've used a BA123. > > I've never used such a thing, but I have gashed my hand on the corner of a > disused one. I was never fond of the physical construction of DEC machines, things like heavy gauge stamped metal with no cleanup of the sheared edges. Can't say I was ever injured by it but I always approached it with a wary eye when working inside the cabinets. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 4 02:02:56 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 00:02:56 -0800 Subject: IBM 5100/5110 ROS (ROM) images? References: <200701032347.l03Nl5ZR028209@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <459CB4A7.F9E01685@cs.ubc.ca> Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > Has anyone extracted images of the Read Only Storage > > for the IBM 5100/5100 desktop computers? I haven't > > seen any mention of it anywhere, nor any simulators. > > Has anyone worked on this? Seems like it should be doable > > and worthwhile. Though, it might be necessary to build > > hardware to read out the ROS contents -- I don't think the > > 5100 provides programmatic access to the PALM object code for > > the 360 and S/3 emulators, just the BASIC and APL code. > > Does that sound right? > > I'd be VERY interested if some progress can be made on this. > > I have a (BASIC only) 5100 that has a failure of the non-executable > ROS ... > > So far I've not been able to dig up any significant technical information, > and images of the ROS do not appear to exist.... > Just curious, what technology is the ROS? - mask ROM, fuse PROM, EPROM, something else? .. wondering which it is that's failing. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 02:15:45 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 03:15:45 -0500 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459CB7B1.4090701@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <459C337F.1090406 at gmail.com>, > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > >> I already mentioned the Alpha 21064, but I believe the MIPS R4000 was >> even earlier. > > MIPS R3000 was used in the ESV in 1989. I think the R4000 came out in > 1990/1991? Sounds right. The R3K wasn't 64-bit in the slightest, though. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 4 02:21:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 00:21:11 -0800 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <0JBA00HYKNADJ8OD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JBA00HYKNADJ8OD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <459C4877.31158.348D919@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jan 2007 at 8:14, Allison wrote: > >(And it confirmed that the AGC was constructed from a single gate/IC type.) > > That statement I believe is in error. While the logic used was RTL and a > single family type the logic elements for that family by the mid 60s were > more diverse than just a two input NOR. If you read the AGC construction documents carefully, the RTL element used was a dual 3-input NOR. Now, I don't expect that this was used to the exclusion of all other active discretes, just that the circuit mentioned was probably the only digital IC type used. In 1968 I was already building circuits using reject 923 flatpacks to build my registers. No one told me how to deal with them physically, so I simply etched a single-sided PCB with solderable pads on each one and wired the pads to one another using (gasp) #26 enameled magnet wire. It worked well enough to satisfy my curiosity. But no matter what was available, the AGC had to be constructed of something that could be qualified for service--and using a single logic type undoubtedly simplified the process by limiting the active logic elements to a single known type. What really impressed my about the AGC design was the the thought that went into the modulatrity of the logic blocks--and that the whole thing took up only 2 cubic feet. Cheers, Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 4 03:49:46 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 06:49:46 -0300 Subject: Anyone else here do AS/400? References: Message-ID: <00e601c72fe5$e8644490$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> Does anyone else here deal with AS/400, or have a lingering interest in >> it? I'd love to have one, but who said these beasties are possible to be found in Brazil?! :P From wizard at voyager.net Thu Jan 4 02:58:15 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 03:58:15 -0500 Subject: Missing Bit Redux In-Reply-To: <459BFF1C.19980.22A50F2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A1@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <459BFF1C.19980.22A50F2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1167901095.23907.45.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 19:08 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jan 2007 at 18:12, Billy Pettit wrote: > > > > Yes, there still do softwware. But in the late 80's, they made complete > > systems, designing all their own hardware. That's what I'm trying to find. > > Are you certain it was Rational? AFAIK, they've always been a > Natick, Mass. languages outfit (they certainly were in 1987). Was > that one of the buildings near San Tomas and Central expressways > (Lawson Lane??) (it'd be Santa Clara, not San Jose, then). > > Dunno, you've got me stumped. I The company I thought of, FWIW, was Savi Technology, Inc. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 4 03:29:50 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 01:29:50 -0800 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available References: <0JBA00HYKNADJ8OD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <459CC905.13CD6ADF@cs.ubc.ca> Allison wrote: > > Brent Hilpert > > > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I stumbled on this document: > >> http://klabs.org/mapld04/papers/g/g233_alonso_p.doc > > >And whats up with this mention of LCD displays? I didn't think there was > >anything practical available that early, or that was going to stand up to the > >rigours of space-flight - I have a calc with one of the first commercial LCDs > >(1972) and it's still kind of rudimentary - slow, poor contrast, temperature sensitive... > > My memory of LCDs is they were way too late for the AGC and the basic > AGC design used either LEDs or Lamps in a 7 segment format. Apparently it was electro-luminescent, see other messages (too early for LED displays, too). > >(And it confirmed that the AGC was constructed from a single gate/IC type.) > > That statement I believe is in error. While the logic used was RTL and a > single family type the logic elements for that family by the mid 60s were > more diverse than just a two input NOR. My junkbox contains parts from There are now two, perhaps three, sources from the period that indicate it was a single gate/IC type: a dual 3-input NOR in 10-pin flat-pak. Read the document Chuck ref'ed above (although there do seem to be some mis-rememberings in there such as LCD instead of EL displays). I'm well aware of the state of RTL/IC development at the time, but high-reliabiliy design doesn't necessarily correlate with whats current in the rest of the industry. Keep in mind the design started years before 1967/8. The IC spec sheets are dated 1965. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 4 03:41:42 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 01:41:42 -0800 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459A1689.7F1F9D3F@cs.ubc.ca>, <459A3531.2003.50E43C8@cclist.sydex.com> <459A4101.5608.53C6A27@cclist.sydex.com> <459B3000.79C72EDC@cs.ubc.ca> <459B3394.6010202@jetnet.ab.ca> <459B4AA3.DC016D9B@cs.ubc.ca> <459B6AAA.8000703@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <459CCBCE.2D86801D@cs.ubc.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > woodelf wrote: > >> Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> > >>> And whats up with this mention of LCD displays? I didn't think there was > >>> anything practical available that early, or that was going to stand up to the > >>> rigours of space-flight - I have a calc with one of the first commercial LCDs > >>> (1972) and it's still kind of rudimentary - slow, poor contrast, temperature sensitive... > >> Doing a bit of googling on the AGC, I found that it uses electroluminescent displays. > > > > Yes, I'm finding those references as well. Although it seems quite early for > > electroluminescent displays too, don't know of anything else that was using > > them at that time, esp. in 7-seg form. > > I don't see why. I've seen early 1970s guitar amplifiers that use a > large EL strip for the control panel backlight. It's not a huge stretch > to imagine that NASA would make a display for a spaceship computer out > of them a few years previously. I'm not surprised that some basic use of the technology was around at the time, so no it's not a huge stretch in principle. However, for such an item as a numeric display I anticipated NASA would be going with something with a track record as opposed to a special development. I expect there are lot of little incandescent indicators in the capsule and standardising on one bulb type (hence one set of spares) would have benefits. Plus, while EL may have the benefit of low power consumption, it does require a special power supply and driver requirements. One of the AGC writeups indicates they got around the latter by using relays (later SCRs, I think it said) to drive the segments. I guess they felt that the basic EL principle was reliable enough that they were comfortable developing with it. Or perhaps those displays were a very high-end (military) thing and I just don't/didn't get to see equipment that may have used it. I do have one multi-digit (what I believe to be) EL display from 1973 (not Gas-Discharge, not VF, not LCD, not LED), sans equipment. Have to try lighting it up someday. From trag at io.com Thu Jan 4 04:02:11 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 04:02:11 -0600 Subject: Outbound Laptop; Was: Mac OS vintage In-Reply-To: <200701040839.l048dcV3032980@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200701040839.l048dcV3032980@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:00:41 -0600 >From: Mark Tapley > Last OS *my* 68000 Mac Plus has run is MacOS 7.1. MacTracker >claims 7.5.5, I can't dispute that as I haven't tried it but I expect >it might not do much good (no RAM left for applications). Same is >claimed for the Mac SE and Classic and PowerBook 100. MacTracker >doesn't report the Outbounds (Jeff?) but since (I think) they used >motherboards from the above systems, The Outbounds used motherboards designed and built by Outbound but with Apple ROMs installed which were scavenged from Apple Macs. I can't speak to the Notebook series but the Laptop (a much cooler machine, IMHO) will not run past Mac OS 7.0.1. However, this is a limitation in Outbound support. In order to use the Outbound Laptop Model 125 one needed to run a system installer application from Outbound after installing the stock Apple System. The Outbound installer definitely puts some code on EEPROMs living in the Outbound Laptop. It may also do some modifications to the System file, but I'm not sure about the latter. It also installs some custom Outbound inits (control panels and extensions, now days), for things such as power management and the trackbar control. Outbound went under before or pretty simultaneous with Apple releasing 7.1 so the Outbound installer was never modified to support 7.1. The required modification could be very simple from a programmer's point of view but I've never been willing to invest the time to figure it out. I'd have to develop the skills to interpret 68000 machine code in the Mac OS environment and for the Mac Plus-ish hardware and figure out what's going on and that seems like a daunting task when there are so many hardware projects around. Still, if there are any 68000 savvy programmers out there interested in taking a hack at it, it would be cool to get the Outbound Laptop past OS 7.0.1. The jump to 7.1 would be very nice. Additionally, the Outbound Laptop is an interesting beast in that it uses 2.5" IDE hard drives. This is the first Macintosh to use an IDE device by many many years. I don't think any Apple Mac used them until the Quadra 630 and its performa and LC cousins. Anyway, the Laptop only supports up to an 80 MB drive. I suspect that it just has parameters for four drives stored in the installer (20, 40, 60 & 80) but I don't know for certain. It would also be very nice to hack the thing to support larger hard drives. Have you tried to find 80 *MB* hard drives these days? Of course you have; this is the CC list. It's a pain. I had a line on a place in Florida with fifty or so in stock for about $40 each but didn't have the money at the time and now they're gone who knows where. Sigh. Anybody have the modified Macsbug application? The Outbound Laptop required a patched version of Macsbug. Also, the Outbound Laptop was meant to dock with it's host computer (the desktop from which the ROMs were taken). There was a card that installed in the host and provided teh connection to the Outbound. I've never managed to find one of these cards. I envision Pluses and SEs going to scrap or being sold without the owners ever realizing this very rare card is installed. Scrap is especially likely because a Mac with the docking card installed won't boot up unless the Laptop is docked (ROMs required). So the host machine would appear "broken". Jeff Walther From jvdg at sparcpark.net Thu Jan 4 04:23:04 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (jvdg at sparcpark.net) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 11:23:04 +0100 Subject: Outbound Laptop; Was: Mac OS vintage Message-ID: Jeff Walther wrote: >> Last OS *my* 68000 Mac Plus has run is MacOS 7.1. MacTracker >> claims 7.5.5, I can't dispute that as I haven't tried it but I expect >> it might not do much good (no RAM left for applications). Same is >> claimed for the Mac SE and Classic and PowerBook 100. MacTracker >> doesn't report the Outbounds (Jeff?) but since (I think) they used >> motherboards from the above systems, > > The Outbounds used motherboards designed and built by Outbound but > with Apple ROMs installed which were scavenged from Apple Macs. > > I can't speak to the Notebook series but the Laptop (a much cooler > machine, IMHO) will not run past Mac OS 7.0.1. However, this is a > limitation in Outbound support. Mac OS 7.5.5 runs on any Mac except the 128K, the 512K and any Mac released after 7.5.5 was current. I have run it on a 2 MB PowerBook 100, and found it performs surprisingly well. More RAM is recommended, though, I wouldn't have put up with it for daily use on a machine with less than 4 MB RAM. However, I always felt that System 7.1 is a better choice for machines that support it than 7.5. After all, 7.5 is basically 7.1 with a bunch of shareware goodies thrown in. ,xtG tsooJ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 4 05:08:06 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 11:08:06 +0000 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> <459C337F.1090406@gmail.com> <459C4492.3050309@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <459CE016.9060800@dunnington.plus.com> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jan 2007, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Eric J Korpela wrote: >>>> Has any 64-bit microprocessor been >>>> declared officially vintage yet? >>> >>> I already mentioned the Alpha 21064, but I believe the MIPS R4000 was >>> even earlier. >> >> R4000 is only 32-bit, though. > > No, The R4000 is 64 bits and probably the first 64 bit Microprocessor... Actually, now that I think about it, that's true -- partly. It just didn't work properly in 64-bit mode, and so all the systems it was ever used in (SGI Crimson and Indigo, mainly) are 32-bit systems and the CPU is fixed in 32-bit mode, with 32-bit registers and a 32-bit bus. The R4400 and R4600 were fixed, but the only R4400 system I know of that was 64-bit capable was the top end SGI Challenge, and I don't know if it was ever supported in that mode (the R8000 Challenge and Onyx systems were the first ones with 64-bit support). I don't know of any R4600 64-bit systems, and the later R4xxx devices are mostly 32-bit chips anyway (like R4300). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bear at typewritten.org Thu Jan 4 05:11:37 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 03:11:37 -0800 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Richard wrote: > I didn't look at that link, but a search of IEC C20 yielded a picture > that looked exactly like what I see on the unit. > > Any other Onyx owners on the list? Yes. I have a deskside RE2, and a rackmount dual-pipe IR. The plug on the deskside is an IEC C20. ok bear From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 4 05:15:17 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 11:15:17 +0000 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459CE1C5.5010400@dunnington.plus.com> Richard wrote: > Does anyone have a machine with an Clipper RISC cpu in it? > > Wikipedia says that > only two companies ever used the Clipper (from Fairchild) were Intergraph > and High Level Hardware. HLH I never heard of before; Intergraph I > know of because they're big in CAD and GIS markets. Ah, WikiP says > that HLF was UK firm that made the Orion. Anyone got one? If you follow the HLH link in the article you'll find York mentioned in the list of UK Universities that used Orions. There were two Orions in the Computer Science machine room when I went to York, and I know where both went -- to a collector just along the road from me. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 4 06:29:07 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 06:29:07 -0600 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459CF313.10304@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > Does anyone have a machine with an Clipper RISC cpu in it? > > Wikipedia says that > only two companies ever used the Clipper (from Fairchild) were Intergraph > and High Level Hardware. HLH I never heard of before; Intergraph I > know of because they're big in CAD and GIS markets. Ah, WikiP says > that HLF was UK firm that made the Orion. Anyone got one? HLH were based in Oxford. We were offered one of the earlier (non-Clipper) machines a while back but unfortunately I couldn't get anyone else at the museum interested. I was asking about these last year in uk.comp.vintage as I'd unearthed some info that said my own uni (UKC) used to have some - yet I didn't recall seeing them during my time there. Bit more info at: http://tinyurl.com/yyomlf Jim Austin still has one I believe, although when I spoke to him last year he wasn't sure about install media. The UKC (non-Clipper) ones ended their days as nothing more than tables for the Sun machines apparently, before they were eventually dumped (the one mentioned at the start of this message is one of these, and was rescued at the time by one of the sysadmins). Key word when talking to anyone about HLH stuff seems to be "unreliability", although they sounded like pretty good systems when they actually worked. cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From evan at snarc.net Thu Jan 4 08:04:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 9:04:00 -0500 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge Message-ID: <200701041404.l04E4WMe050695@keith.ezwind.net> I didn't say anything about being 'special' (although the answer is 'plenty'.) I will respond the same to such comments about ANY minority group. I choose fights with caution, but ignorance is the biggest problem facing the human species. From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Jan 4 09:26:16 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 10:26:16 -0500 Subject: Missing Bits In-Reply-To: <01C72FA1.5591B100@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200701041432.l04EW5FB026484@hosting.monisys.ca> > I worked with an Arix system years ago, and I think at least one person up > here in Ontario has one; I sent him whatever Arix documentation I had left a > while ago. > > Dave Dunfield might know better if they're still around and who has them now. Mike Kenzie here in Ottawa (an infrequent participant in this list) had an Arix, but I believe he has given it to someone in Kingston (Ontario). If he doesn't see this and respond within a few days, I'll contact him and find out where the material is currently located. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jan 4 08:38:22 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 08:38:22 -0600 Subject: Kosher stove and fridge References: <002d01c72f6c$0d575870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <459C2026.7020908@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <00d401c7300d$fe8ab600$6500a8c0@BILLING> I suspect the original post was not intended to reference a religion, rather, a phonetic illustration. Kill this thread. Jay From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Jan 4 08:49:54 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 8:49:54 -0600 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics (was: Wire Rope ROMs (Was: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available)) Message-ID: <20070104144955.IEQQ20020.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > In article , > "Rick Bensene" writes: > > > [...] Wang is also > > famous for purposefully putting errors into published schematics to > > throw off competitors who would use such schematics to reverse-engineer > > how the machines work. [...] > > Wow, I'd never heard that story before. Interesting! > > How many other companies did this back when schematics were pretty > much leaving the machine laying naked in front of you? This is a very old practice. Some of Babbage's drawings had intentional errors. As I recall, he drew some parts in mirror image. The group that did the difference engine reconstruction in London ran into this. And the practice wasn't new when Babbage used it. BLS From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Jan 4 10:00:10 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 11:00:10 -0500 Subject: MIL-MOD8 (8008) simulator and a few other goodies posted Message-ID: <200701041506.l04F63Xn001969@hosting.monisys.ca> Over the break I finally got around to writing a simulator for the Microsystems International Limited MOD-8 (Modular-8). It has been very educational and interesting, and the final result of being able to experience what is like to run a very early microprocessor (8008) based system from Canada has been well worth it. The simulator is available on my site in the MOD8 section (Under "Designed in Canada") - I have also included an 8008 assembler, and my retyped source code to the MOD-8's ROM monitor (Monitor-8). This is the first step in getting my MOD-8 system up and running. I have a complete chassis (MOD8-8), as well as unpopulated ROM (MOD8-4) and RAM (MOD8-5) cards. What I don't currently have is the CPU (MOD8-1), Restart/TTY I/O (MOD8-2) and Control Buffer (MOD8-3) cards. If anyone can help locate these cards, it would be greatly appreciated. I do have several vectorboards which match the MOD-8 card format, and I will eventually construct the boards that I am unable to locate, however I would like to restore the system to as nearly original as possible. I will also need to locate a few more 1702 EPROMs - I have 3-4 of them, but the system needs a minimum of 7 for the ROM monitor. Programming them will also be a challenge (even my trusty DIO 29B doesn't do 1702s and the requirement for -40v as logic-low makes for a more complex construction project than I would like considering I will probably never need it again) - but the MOD8 has a built in 1702 programmer - Currently, I am planning to make a ROM board with a 2716 on it once I have the rest of the system completed, and use it to program 1702s for the original ROM board - an interesting kind of hardware/software bootstrap. The MOD8 was also known as the "GNC8" (Great Northern Computers), and a later version used an 8080 processor (MOD80). Any other MOD8/GNC8/MOD80 owners or interested parties out there? ----- Other things posted to the site over the break: - Updated my paper tape tools with PTE, a Paper Tape (reader) Emulator - allows you to send the content of the paper tape images over a serial or parallel interface as if from a physical reader. - Updated the NST (North Star Transfer) utility in my Horizon package to include a "Clean Head" function - easier than using N*DOS "RD" command to sweep the head back and forth over a cleaning disk. - Added disk images to the archive for: NorthStar Advantage (thanks Joachim!) Coleco Adam Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cc at corti-net.de Thu Jan 4 09:26:40 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 16:26:40 +0100 (CET) Subject: IBM 5100/5110 ROS (ROM) images? In-Reply-To: <200701032347.l03Nl5ZR028209@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200701032347.l03Nl5ZR028209@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Has anyone extracted images of the Read Only Storage >> for the IBM 5100/5100 desktop computers? I haven't I've extracted the first of the two Exec ROS', the one containing all the monitor and I/O routines. I'm in the progress of disassembling and commenting the code. I've also disassembled several IBM utility programs, e.g. TDTCOPY, DDCOPY, SIO8BIT, DIAG DCP and so on. This for example is the beginning of the Tape I/O supervisor routine: ; *************************** ; Device E (Tape) I/O Routine ; *************************** 7F00 216C MOVE R1, $D8 ; Vector table for I/O routines 7F02 A13B ADD R1, #$3C ; Vector to device F 7F04 D718 MOVE R7, (R1) 7F06 0F33 INC2 R15, R3 7F08 6EF0 MOVB R14, (R15)+ ; IOCB_Cmd 7F0A 6DF6 MOVB R13, (R15)--- ; IOCB_Flags 7F0C CE0B SNZ R14 7F0E A00B BRA $7F1C ; "Sense" command 7F10 8C30 LBI R12, #$30 7F12 8103 LBI R1, #$03 7F14 CE10 SLE R14, R1 ; Read or Write ? 7F16 A007 BRA $7F20 ; No 7F18 CDC6 SBC R13, R12 7F1A A02B BRA $7F48 ; Bit 2 or 3 set 7F1C 2807 MOVE R8, $0E ; R7L0, contains vector 7F1E 2056 JMP ($00AC) ; Do I/O and return to caller [...] >> seen any mention of it anywhere, nor any simulators. >> Has anyone worked on this? Seems like it should be doable >> and worthwhile. Though, it might be necessary to build >> hardware to read out the ROS contents -- I don't think the >> 5100 provides programmatic access to the PALM object code for >> the 360 and S/3 emulators, just the BASIC and APL code. >> Does that sound right? Yes. The 5110 can only access the following ROS': Common ROS BASIC ROS APL ROS and maybe Diskette Sort (haven't tried yet) These ROS' are accessed as an I/O device. You write two PUTB instructions to device 1, MSB of the ROS address first, then LSB. Then you can read the contents of this ROS with consecutive GETBs (the second GETB automatically increments the ROS address by 1; ROS address is given as word address!). I've read these ROS' from my 5110 model 1. The Executable ROS is only accessible by the processor during an instruction fetch cycle... and by the graphics adapter while -POR is active! BTW I haven't found any 360 / S/3 emulator yet. Both BASIC and APL ROS don't contain any code I recognize. > I'd be VERY interested if some progress can be made on this. Really? Until now nobody have had any interest in neither a Kermit for the 5110 nor an Infocom interpreter (both written in assembly). > I have a (BASIC only) 5100 that has a failure of the non-executable > ROS ... Of what non-executable ROS? There are several. Do you also have the Diskette Sort feature (additional ROS card)? > So far I've not been able to dig up any significant technical information, You haven't searched for that information, have you? Do you know my site? It's still not complete, though, as I'm learing more and more while disassembling programs and playing with different bits... Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 4 09:54:31 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 07:54:31 -0800 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion Message-ID: <459D2337.70804@bitsavers.org> There were two Orions in the Computer Science machine room when I went to York, and I know where both went -- to a collector just along the road from me. -- Did either still have the original 2901 based processor? Apparently most HLH machines were upgraded to Clippers CPUs From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Thu Jan 4 09:59:51 2007 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 09:59:51 -0600 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics (was: Wire Rope ROMs (Was: backto the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available)) In-Reply-To: <20070104144955.IEQQ20020.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: Leonardo DaVinci put errors in the drawings for his "tank." >From: "Brian L. Stuart" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >Subject: Re: Purposefully fudged schematics (was: Wire Rope ROMs (Was: >backto the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available)) >Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 8:49:54 -0600 > > > In article , > > "Rick Bensene" writes: > > > > > [...] Wang is also > > > famous for purposefully putting errors into published schematics to > > > throw off competitors who would use such schematics to >reverse-engineer > > > how the machines work. [...] > > > > Wow, I'd never heard that story before. Interesting! > > > > How many other companies did this back when schematics were pretty > > much leaving the machine laying naked in front of you? > >This is a very old practice. Some of Babbage's drawings had >intentional errors. As I recall, he drew some parts in mirror image. >The group that did the difference engine reconstruction in London >ran into this. And the practice wasn't new when Babbage used >it. > >BLS > > _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 4 10:04:37 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 08:04:37 -0800 Subject: Parametron In-Reply-To: <459D2337.70804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi Could someone please tell me how one uses a Parametron to make logic? Nothing that I see on the web actually explains the operation. All it says is that a 180 degree shift in phase could be treated as a 1 or a zero. There is something about a resonent core with non-linear action and a frequency dividing action. I'd like to see how one would make a parametron nand gate??? Thanks Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. ?Who will win? http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 4 10:26:30 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:26:30 -0600 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: <459D2337.70804@bitsavers.org> References: <459D2337.70804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <459D2AB6.1000004@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > There were two Orions in > the Computer Science machine room when I went to York, and I know where > both went -- to a collector just along the road from me. > > -- > > Did either still have the original 2901 based processor? > Apparently most HLH machines were upgraded to Clippers CPUs Pete will hopefully know. I'm starting to wonder about Jim's pair now; the usenet posting I referred to earlier suggests they were Clippers, but I've just been scanning past emails from Jim and he refers to them as being microcoded. I haven't found the rest of the conversation yet, though, which might shed some more light on things. The ex-UKC one we were offered was definitely the earlier generation with 2900-series processor. OS install media is likely to be a big problem for any potential restore, and likely documentation too (I know Jim rescued what tapes he could, but when I last spoke to him he was unsure as to exactly what data he had and whether that included OS media for either or both generations). These machines are the only HLH survivors that I've come across (which of course doesn't mean to say that someone has one lurking in private hands!). The fate of the ex-UKC 2900-series one is unknown - it was rather in the way the last I heard as the owner was moving house and sounded reluctant about moving it. I could always get back in touch, though. Hopefully it didn't get abandoned; UK-designed UNIX systems are pretty thin on the ground (unreliable or not!). cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 4 10:42:53 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 08:42:53 -0800 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion Message-ID: <459D2E8D.7030308@bitsavers.org> OS install media is likely to be a big problem for any potential restore, and likely documentation too -- One of the folks involved with HLH lives in the Bay Area. I've been bugging him to donate the Orion material he has to CHM. From john at guntersville.net Thu Jan 4 10:44:51 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:44:51 -0600 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion References: Message-ID: <459D2F03.D4C54EBA@guntersville.net> Richard wrote: > > Does anyone have a machine with an Clipper RISC cpu in it? > > Wikipedia says that > only two companies ever used the Clipper (from Fairchild) were Intergraph > and High Level Hardware. HLH I never heard of before; Intergraph I > know of because they're big in CAD and GIS markets. Ah, WikiP says > that HLF was UK firm that made the Orion. Anyone got one? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! I have two Clipper based boxes, Intergraph Server 200 & Intergraph Server 2000, both of which seem to be pretty good hardware. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 4 11:34:11 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:34:11 -0700 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 03:11:37 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "r.stricklin" writes: > On Jan 3, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Richard wrote: > > > Any other Onyx owners on the list? > > Yes. I have a deskside RE2, and a rackmount dual-pipe IR. Sweet, that makes three of us who have this configuration! Onyx RE2 Onyx IR I emailed the guy at Reputable Systems (he's in Colorado, just "next door" at 700miles away :). He wasn't interested in the Challenge/L that was down in Trinidad, CO. He says they routinely get auctioned off at UC Boulder for scrap prices. I am getting hints that the 3rd party market for SGI machines is drying up. That either means that these machines are about to become as scarce, are about to become available cheaply (because there's no 3rd party reseller market for them) or both. Even the sci-vis guys at the UofU no longer use SGI irion anymore -- just piles of linux boxes with fancy PC graphics cards. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 4 11:30:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:30:05 -0700 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:44:51 -0600. <459D2F03.D4C54EBA@guntersville.net> Message-ID: In article <459D2F03.D4C54EBA at guntersville.net>, "John C. Ellingboe" writes: > I have two Clipper based boxes, Intergraph Server 200 & > Intergraph Server 2000, both of which seem to be pretty good > hardware. Sweet! What year were they made? Are you running CLIX on them? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jan 4 11:48:22 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 09:48:22 -0800 Subject: Dealing with corrosion... Message-ID: <200701040948.22998.lbickley@bickleywest.com> A friend and business associate recently asked me about how I dealt with corrosion issues in vintage computer restorations. After I created this writeup for for him, I realized it may also prove helpful to someone on this list. Here 'tis: Very bad corrosion from alkaline battery spillage: ------------------------------------------------- Pour 30% Hydrochloric Acid directly on the affected area of the board. When the foaming (along with "clouds" of vapor) stop, immediately rinse the board in plenty of cold water. Follow with a rinsing of distilled water (to eliminate any calcium in the tap waster). Dry in the open air or with mild air pressure (I use the later to speed drying). When originally told of this process, I was skeptical (even though sourced from a professional in the board repair business). When I first tried it, I was amazed at the quantity of foaming (and clouds of vapor) from the acid treatment. But amazingly, just as he said, the acid is not on the board long enough to dissolve traces, components, etc. It works, just as he said it would! You can get 30% Hydrochloric Acid at most hardware stores. Its "common name" is "Muriatic Acid". (Wear latex gloves when handing and protective eye guards - and use outdoors or in a well ventilated area). Medium corrosion (from any source): ---------------------------------- Apply "DeoxIT D100L" sparingly to the affected area. Wait 20 minutes. Repeat if necessary. When the corrosion is completely removed, remove any excess "D100L". Apply "DeoxIT G100L" (formerly known as "ProGold") sparingly for long term protection. Light corrosion (from any source): --------------------------------- Apply "DeoxIT GL100L" sparingly. Notes: ----- "DeoxIT GL100L" - The military (and certain manufacturers) uses this "stuff" on edge connectors in sensitive system connectors to maintain excellent contact and easy removal/insertion w/o stressing boards and connectors. I've used it for years on the edge connectors of vintage computers (PDP-8, PDP-11, etc.) - and it is truly an amazing product. Works like perfection. The "DeoxIT" products seem expensive - but because you use the stuff "sparingly", a very small bottle lasts a long time. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From john at guntersville.net Thu Jan 4 11:56:28 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 11:56:28 -0600 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion References: Message-ID: <459D3FCC.E1D7E1F3@guntersville.net> Richard wrote: > > In article <459D2F03.D4C54EBA at guntersville.net>, > "John C. Ellingboe" writes: > > > I have two Clipper based boxes, Intergraph Server 200 & > > Intergraph Server 2000, both of which seem to be pretty good > > hardware. > > Sweet! What year were they made? Are you running CLIX on them? I have no idea of the manufacture date of either machine. They do have a bit of age on them though. They both have CLIX installed. I haven't played with them in quite a while. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Jan 4 12:00:45 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 10:00:45 -0800 Subject: MIL-MOD8 (8008) simulator and a few other goodies posted Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: The MOD8 was also known as the "GNC8" (Great Northern Computers), and a later version used an 8080 processor (MOD80). Any other MOD8/GNC8/MOD80 owners or interested parties out there? Regards, Dave ---------------------- I had completely forgotten about the MOD-8. I lived in Mississauga 1972-76 working at Control Data. We had an after hours club and the MOD-8 was just coming out. So I know I have some of the documentation. The boards are another matter. One member bought the complete unit and we reverse engineered and made sets for our selves. So if I have anything left, it would be knock offs. And I think I traded them before I left Canada. Anyway, when I come across the documentation, I'll send it to Al and make it available to the list. I've got some 1702's around the house. How many do you need? Any preference on colour? White ceramic or the later black with the foggy window? Billy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 4 12:03:38 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 12:03:38 -0600 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459D417A.4070409@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article , > "r.stricklin" writes: > >> On Jan 3, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Richard wrote: >> >>> Any other Onyx owners on the list? >> Yes. I have a deskside RE2, and a rackmount dual-pipe IR. > > Sweet, that makes three of us who have this configuration! Sigh, we got offered an Onyx dual-pipe IR a while back - 24 x R10k CPUs and 4GB of RAM on it plus Sirius video as I recall. Unfortunately I couldn't persuade anyone else at the museum that it'd be a fun machine to have :-( Real shame IMHO, as the higher-end SGI stuff was always *really* nice and we could have done some pretty awesome demo stuff with that box! cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 4 12:17:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 11:17:47 -0700 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 12:03:38 -0600. <459D417A.4070409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <459D417A.4070409 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Sigh, we got offered an Onyx dual-pipe IR a while back - 24 x R10k CPUs and > 4GB of RAM on it plus Sirius video as I recall. Unfortunately I couldn't > persuade anyone else at the museum that it'd be a fun machine to have :-( The Sirius Video breakout boxes seem to get separated from the interface cards. I see the breakout boxes offered alone on ebay, etc., and rarely see an Onyx being offered anywhere, not even on the 3rd party sites. You should have snarfed that one :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 4 12:29:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 13:29:56 -0500 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0701031228s71546a0dp27634b59d1d3b052@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> <6E0D8A2D-52E4-4946-BBE5-26758B9A2B34@neurotica.com> <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20070102222341.039353f8@pop.1and1.com> <459B9B41.30906@yahoo.co.uk> <5.2.1.1.0.20070103111648.03480e08@pop.1and1.com> <4affc5e0701031228s71546a0dp27634b59d1d3b052@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33035a291939020d4b01a375d1827a3a@neurotica.com> On Jan 3, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> Electronics don't care if there are x-rays present when they are on >> any >> more than when they are off. They die at the same rate. : ) > > Actually, I've been wondering: What is the effect of x-rays on EPROMS? I believe very early EPROMs (1702s) listed x-ray exposure as a means of erasure. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jan 4 12:43:12 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 13:43:12 -0500 Subject: Outbound Laptop; Was: Mac OS vintage In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Jan 2007 04:02:11 CST." Message-ID: <200701041843.l04IhCwc017411@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jeff Walther wrote: > >Additionally, the Outbound Laptop is an interesting beast in that it >uses 2.5" IDE hard drives. This is the first Macintosh to use an >IDE device by many many years. I don't think any Apple Mac used >them until the Quadra 630 and its performa and LC cousins. Perhaps true, but there were macs with 3.5" st-506 drives long before that. -brad From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 4 12:49:07 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 11:49:07 -0700 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459D4C23.6080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Robert Feldman wrote: > Leonardo DaVinci put errors in the drawings for his "tank." > But then how many people have built it! Ornithopter's are a lot more fun. :) The unrealized dream of aviation -- man powered Ornithopter. http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/kazuho/index-e.htm ------ To get back on topic about babbage's drawings, from what I read it was mechnical design that could not be produced with 18th century mechanical enginering. From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Jan 4 12:52:27 2007 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 12:52:27 -0600 Subject: Outbound Laptop; Was: Mac OS vintage In-Reply-To: <200701041843.l04IhCwc017411@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200701041843.l04IhCwc017411@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <459D4CEB.90303@ubanproductions.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Jeff Walther wrote: >> Additionally, the Outbound Laptop is an interesting beast in that it >> uses 2.5" IDE hard drives. This is the first Macintosh to use an >> IDE device by many many years. I don't think any Apple Mac used >> them until the Quadra 630 and its performa and LC cousins. > > Perhaps true, but there were macs with 3.5" st-506 drives long before > that. > The mac powerbook 150 used a 2.5" IDE drive. It was low cost 68030 machine, circa 1994. --tom From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jan 4 13:27:33 2007 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 14:27:33 -0500 Subject: Outbound Laptop; Was: Mac OS vintage In-Reply-To: <459D4CEB.90303@ubanproductions.com> References: <200701041843.l04IhCwc017411@mwave.heeltoe.com> <459D4CEB.90303@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <459D5525.2050406@arachelian.com> Tom Uban wrote: > The mac powerbook 150 used a 2.5" IDE drive. It was low cost 68030 > machine, circa 1994. > Yeah, the 150 was one of the 1st to use IDE. The earlier ones used SCSI 2.5" drives from what I recall. I'm not certain which the first model was that used IDE. Very difficult to obtain these days. Very few machines used SCSI 2.5" drives, but of those I know that SPARCbooks did. There are a few SCSI to IDE bridges for low profile 2.5" drives that hook on to the IDE drives and have a SCSI interface. Those are lots of fun. :-) What I really miss is the Duo's and the DuoDock's. I wish modern notebooks supported something like that as cleanly. IMHO, that was a brilliant idea. I still have my Duo230 somewhere in a closet + the parts of the dock, but it's poor keyboard got sticky and no longer works. Was a nice little machine back in the day. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Jan 4 13:34:02 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 13:34:02 -0600 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics Message-ID: <20070104193402.RJRW20020.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > To get back on topic about babbage's drawings, > from what I read it was mechnical design that > could not be produced with 18th century mechanical > enginering. That's often been conjectured, but, as usual, reality is somewhat more complicated. Most other craftsmen probably couldn't have produced what he designed. Along the way, he invented new techniques of fabrication and management as well as computation. However, he probably could have built it. He did build a small version that operated as he intended. And part of the reason for the construction project at the Science Museum was to determine if the materials and tools of the time could have built the machine. In the end, much of the reason he never built a full version of his designs was that he was too much the stereotypical engineer. Almost nobody except Ada could get along with him and he made a number of enemies among those who would fund his work. The money situation led to a dispute with his primary craftsman who walked out with all the custom tools they had made. Then as he was considering his options, he realized that he could improve his design many fold and so dropped his efforts on the difference engine in favor of the analytical engine. Even with that machine, he kept stopping his efforts to realize it because he was sure that he could build his new design faster than he could finish the work he had started on the previous version. As I recall, there were over 40 different designs for the analytical engine by the time it was done, and he had never built a full version of any of them. After his death, his son did assemble a small version of one of the designs for the mill including some parts that Babbage had already fabricated before his death. There's no question Babbage was ahead of his time in many ways. But he was also understood the materials and tools well enough to design a machine that he felt confident he could actually build. BLS From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 4 13:32:18 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 13:32:18 -0600 Subject: OT: Missing quotes in message replies Message-ID: <459D5642.8050806@yahoo.co.uk> I'm seeing a few messages where the text being replied to isn't quoted (anything from Al and Billy Pettit it seems, but there have been one or two others) other than a separating line beneath old and new text, making it confusing at first glance (particularly where the actual line and reply might be off the bottom of the screen). Am I alone in this? I just wondered if it's something broken within my email client (Thunderbird) and it's stopped rendering what it thinks is quoted text properly for certain classes of messages. 99% of messages are fine though, and either get displayed with quote characters or displayed with a solid coloured line to the left of the quoted text. If it's just me I'll try and find the cause though; if it's not I'll just put up with it :-) cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 4 14:21:33 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 12:21:33 -0800 Subject: AC coupling / Solid-State / core logic Message-ID: <459D61CD.974DADA3@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck, found this tangentially while attempting to find more about the parametron, as per Dwight's message. The Elliot 803 used core logic with solid-state amplifiers. (Apparently core logic received more practical use than I thought, as well.) Some description: http://www.tech.port.ac.uk/staffweb/andersod/CCS/ShowPage.php?Page=19 Another description with diagram: http://www.sli-institute.ac.uk/~bob/elliott803.htm While it is AC-coupled, perhaps it is not what you were looking for, though. The logic signal propagation still takes place in discrete, clocked, time steps as opposed to continuous wave propagation, if that is an adequate description of the distinction. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Jan 4 03:38:48 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 09:38:48 -0000 Subject: D-shell connector age? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393D37@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I expect they use Scart as opposed to D type for the same reason they use phono and not 75 Ohm BNC and XLR. Its cheaper in mass produced consumer electronics. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 03 January 2007 23:08 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: D-shell connector age? Adrian Graham wrote: > On 3/1/07 21:33, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > >> Anyone know where D-shell connectors first appeared on equipment? >> >> Interesting thread going on in a local group at the moment about why >> SCART [1] sockets are so horrible and nasty (prone to breaking pins, >> difficult to line up, prone to falling out etc.) and why something >> better, like a D-shell connector, wasn't chosen instead. > > SCART was originally known as PERITEL and originated in France. > > Make of that what you will :) To be honest, it's a great idea - and much better than non-European countries where the typical connectivity is via RF only. Going source->modulator->tuner->display never did seem like a good idea when you could just go source->display via separate shielded RGB signals. (The picture quality I've seen on the typical US setup is piss-poor compared to the UK, jokes about NTSC aside) It's just a shame that the connector they picked for the standard is so lousy. Having looked at some old pricelists, SCART connectors weren't much cheaper than D-shells - and given that they were typically used on expensive equipment which only contained a couple of them, the difference couldn't have been significant at all. The only thing I can think of (other than it being some odd political decision) is that you know SCART is SCART; if using D-shells there would have been a few idiots trying to plug any old computer cable into their equipment. That hardly seems justification to enforce a nasty connector choice, though. Assuming that D-shell connectors were around, of course - but if Chuck's right then they should have been readily available in the mid-70's. Pin spacing is wider on SCART, so presumably they suffer less from interference - but we all know that D-shells are perfectly good for video (particularly at TV rates). cheers Jules From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Jan 4 15:12:08 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 21:12:08 +0000 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459D6DA8.7020808@gifford.co.uk> Richard wrote: > Does anyone have a machine with an Clipper RISC cpu in it? No, but I have a manual for the Clipper somewhere. > Wikipedia says that > only two companies ever used the Clipper (from Fairchild) were Intergraph > and High Level Hardware. HLH I never heard of before; Intergraph I > know of because they're big in CAD and GIS markets. Ah, WikiP says > that HLF was UK firm that made the Orion. Anyone got one? Again, no, but I did use one at Westfield College (University of London) in 1984/85. We had two, one for research projects and one for undergraduate Unix work. We also had a PDP-11/44 running V7 Unix and a Prime P750 running Primos and Software Tools. I don't know what happened to the Orions, but I can make some enquiries. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Jan 4 15:15:12 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 21:15:12 +0000 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics In-Reply-To: <459D4C23.6080708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <459D4C23.6080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <459D6E60.5060302@gifford.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > To get back on topic about babbage's drawings, > from what I read it was mechnical design that > could not be produced with 18th century mechanical > enginering. I thought the Science Museum rebuild showed that it could be built with 19th century engineering? They deliberately didn't make it any more accurate than Babbage could have, and they only found a couple of minor difficulties. One was that it was too hard to turn the handle, so they geared it down. Surely something that, if Babbage had finished the Difference Engine, he'd have done himself? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 4 15:23:13 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 14:23:13 -0700 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 21:12:08 +0000. <459D6DA8.7020808@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: So noone has one of the Intergraph workstations? A pity. They were a dominant player, you'd have expected some of the machines to survive! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 15:25:29 2007 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 21:25:29 +0000 Subject: Prime for sale again Message-ID: <26c11a640701041325q328ee66eta7daba098743b45e@mail.gmail.com> The Prime I got back in April is on ebay again. I am moving to Australia for a year or two. I don't think I'd get it over there as hand luggage. It has been stored in my spare room for 6 months so it is in good condition. The item no, is 150077818268 Dan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 4 15:57:46 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 14:57:46 -0700 Subject: Prime for sale again In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 21:25:29 +0000. <26c11a640701041325q328ee66eta7daba098743b45e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think tony still has some room in his house :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vrs at msn.com Thu Jan 4 16:06:18 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:06:18 -0800 Subject: Missing quotes in message replies References: <459D5642.8050806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: From: "Jules Richardson" > I'm seeing a few messages where the text being replied to isn't quoted > (anything from Al and Billy Pettit it seems, but there have been one or > two others) other than a separating line beneath old and new text, making > it confusing at first glance (particularly where the actual line and reply > might be off the bottom of the screen). > > Am I alone in this? I just wondered if it's something broken within my > email client (Thunderbird) and it's stopped rendering what it thinks is > quoted text properly for certain classes of messages. You are not alone in this. I think it has something to do with the way that replies to HTML emails are generated. I find that emails sent to me as plain text get automatically quoted properly when I hit 'reply', but that HTML junk doesn't. My theory is that others don't bother to manually put in the "> " before the stuff that didn't get it automatically. Vince From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Jan 4 16:08:08 2007 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 17:08:08 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <459D7AC8.3010405@bellsouth.net> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Glen Goodwin wrote: >> At this late date it would probably be easier to design >> and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard >> could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. > > Seems like overkill - the interface would need more processor power than > the ZX81, most likely. There *must* be a company that makes membrane > keyboards, and will do a shortish run. I'd certainly donate a > working-ish keyboard to get some made up... Actually, ZXTEAM already has a fairly simple interface for attaching an AT keyboard. The technical details are here: http://www.fischerkai.de/zxteam/atkey_e.htm Best, Glen From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Jan 4 16:26:08 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:26:08 -0800 Subject: Outbound Laptop; Was: Mac OS vintage Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jeff Walther wrote: Additionally, the Outbound Laptop is an interesting beast in that it uses 2.5" IDE hard drives. This is the first Macintosh to use an IDE device by many many years. I don't think any Apple Mac used them until the Quadra 630 and its performa and LC cousins. Jeff Walther --------------- I'm not familiar with the Outbound Laptop. What was the model number? I do know that I was supporting Apple at Quantum in early 1994 and qualified an IDE 2.5 inch drive for their laptops. It was one of the Blackbird series, 160 if I remember correctly. Was made in Taiwan by Tatung as an ODM. For a disk drive engineer, it was an unpleasant machine - the drive was mounted above the CPU chip, dumping all the heat into the drive. Quantum could never get it to meet Apple's temperature requirements with this handicap. When Apple pushed hard, Quantum canceled the program and got out of the 2.5 inch business - no way could they be profitable with those temperature specs and Apple's pricing structure. Billy From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Jan 4 16:31:24 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 22:31:24 +0000 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: <200612251028.kBPARdAL047817@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612251028.kBPARdAL047817@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 25 Dec, 2006, at 10:28, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > 1) Recordings of 2nd generation (or even before, if they exist) > mainframes making tunes. There are a few recordings out there, and I > may be getting some help from CHM for more. > There some are old recordings of my 2nd generation mainframe at : http://ict1301.co.uk/13010520.htm I also have a fuller set of 33 files in .aiff format which the files on the web site were derived from. These were recorded from audio cassette tapes which are about 30 years old but seem to sound the same as I remember them. The programs to make the music is on punched cards and the card reader is currently unreliable and I don't want to risk the card decks reading them in as I only have one set. The sound came from the built in speaker, which is pulsed once for every two conditional branch instructions. I used to write pen plotter drivers for the Macintosh and there were some plotters made by Watanabe (later renamed GrafTec) which were suitable for music. The x and y axes were driven by noisy stepper motors. The speed was programmable and when drawing a large circle you could hear the stepper motors make a rising and falling tone as the angle changed. That is, drawing a 45 degree line the two motors worked at the same speed, and when drawing a horizontal/vertical line only one motor would be working For angles in between the tone would vary depending on the angle. The slower cheaper plotters made a grating sound but the faster more expensive ones were very melodic, though I never got around to programming them to make music myself, I would not be surprised if somebody did. Roger Holmes From fryers at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 17:01:23 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:01:23 +0000 Subject: OT: Missing quotes in message replies In-Reply-To: <459D5642.8050806@yahoo.co.uk> References: <459D5642.8050806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Hey all, On 04/01/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I'm seeing a few messages where the text being replied to isn't quoted > (anything from Al and Billy Pettit it seems, but there have been one or two > others) other than a separating line beneath old and new text, making it > confusing at first glance (particularly where the actual line and reply might > be off the bottom of the screen). > > Am I alone in this? I just wondered if it's something broken within my email > client (Thunderbird) and it's stopped rendering what it thinks is quoted text > properly for certain classes of messages. I have been seeing the same sort of thing. I am running gmail under firefox and IE. A couple of sets of replies I have seen under the signature line (dash dash space CR/LF), resulting in a little head scratching before realising what was happening. > 99% of messages are fine though, and either get displayed with quote > characters or displayed with a solid coloured line to the left of the quoted > text. If it's just me I'll try and find the cause though; if it's not I'll > just put up with it :-) Appears to be problems with bit rot... Although other things indicate that the universe is ganging up on me today so I assumed it was just me. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Jan 4 17:33:45 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 15:33:45 -0800 Subject: OT: Missing quotes in message replies Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A9@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jules Richardson Wrote: I'm seeing a few messages where the text being replied to isn't quoted (anything from Al and Billy Pettit it seems, but there have been one or two others) other than a separating line beneath old and new text, making it confusing at first glance (particularly where the actual line and reply might be off the bottom of the screen). cheers Jules -------------------------------------------- Billy wrote: In my case, it is because I reply using a copy from the web site. To keep the number of emails down, I only receive digests. Yet often, I want to respond to a message without wading through the digests. So I copy off the web site, trim off the excess and comment below. I'm active, more or less on 75+ elists. And when they get active, it means 100's of emails a day. So reading and responding is very selective. For example, have you noticed how much activity there is on this list this week? It's like everybody is rested up and full of piss and vinegar. At the other extreme, some lists generate almost nothing. The paleobotany list averages 8-10 messages a year. Some of the science fiction lists are cyclical going from 100+ a day to 1-2 day and back again over a couple of months. Billy From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Jan 4 12:49:49 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 18:49:49 +0000 Subject: Outbound Laptop; Was: Mac OS vintage In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366A3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <20070104234922.JVTH12977.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:26:08 -0800 > From: "Billy Pettit" > To: > Subject: Outbound Laptop; Was: Mac OS vintage > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > Jeff Walther wrote: > > Additionally, the Outbound Laptop is an interesting beast in that it > uses 2.5" IDE hard drives. This is the first Macintosh to use an Snip > Jeff Walther > > --------------- > > I'm not familiar with the Outbound Laptop. What was the model number? > > I do know that I was supporting Apple at Quantum in early 1994 and qualified > an IDE 2.5 inch drive for their laptops. It was one of the Blackbird > series, 160 if I remember correctly. Was made in Taiwan by Tatung as an > ODM. For a disk drive engineer, it was an unpleasant machine - the drive > was mounted above the CPU chip, dumping all the heat into the drive. > Quantum could never get it to meet Apple's temperature requirements with > this handicap. When Apple pushed hard, Quantum canceled the program and got > out of the 2.5 inch business - no way could they be profitable with those > temperature specs and Apple's pricing structure. > > Billy No wonder Q exited the 2.5" sector. :( Btw, Apple was also wrong way to put HD over the element coil (aka CPU). Heat is MAJOR HD enemy. Shortens the life and kills the platters. Cheers, Wizard From dholland at woh.rr.com Thu Jan 4 18:34:25 2007 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 19:34:25 -0500 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1167957265.8534.7.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Thu, 2007-01-04 at 10:34 -0700, Richard wrote: > In article , > "r.stricklin" writes: > > > On Jan 3, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > Any other Onyx owners on the list? > > PowerSeries -> Crimson conversion w/ VGXT in the box sitting next to me. (brown/blue not red, unfortunately) However, if there is anyone w/ a spare Onyx in the vicinity of Ohio, who doesn't want it, please let me know. :-) them) or both. Even the sci-vis guys at the UofU no longer use SGI > irion anymore -- just piles of linux boxes with fancy PC graphics > cards. >From what I can tell, the average high end PC graphics cards can run rings around the average Reality Engine these days, and is (alot) cheaper. David From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jan 4 18:35:59 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 16:35:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTB: Nokia 9000 and HP OmniGo 700 Message-ID: Does anyone have a Nokia 9000 (not 9000i) or HP OmniGo 700? Oh yeah? Want to sell them? ;) Please reply directly to me as I am not subscribed to the list. sellam at vintagetech.com Thanks! Happy New Year all! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 4 17:48:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:48:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <459B6AAA.8000703@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jan 3, 7 08:34:50 am Message-ID: > I don't see why. I've seen early 1970s guitar amplifiers that use a > large EL strip for the control panel backlight. It's not a huge stretch > to imagine that NASA would make a display for a spaceship computer out > of them a few years previously. At least one Philips valved radio (1960's, I think) used an EL panel as the base for the tuning dial (rather than the more conventional filament lamps to illuminate said dial). And I seem to remember reading about EL panels in photogrpahic books of the late 1950s (they were proposed as a darkroom safelight). Of course all these applications ued plain panels, not divided up into segments. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 4 17:56:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:56:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: <459C373F.4010807@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 3, 7 05:07:43 pm Message-ID: > To be honest, it's a great idea - and much better than non-European countries > where the typical connectivity is via RF only. > > Going source->modulator->tuner->display never did seem like a good idea when > you could just go source->display via separate shielded RGB signals. (The > picture quality I've seen on the typical US setup is piss-poor compared to the > UK, jokes about NTSC aside) One reason for this, I susepct, is that before the common usage of SMPSUs in TV sets, almost all TVs were live-chassis, with all the internal circuitry directly connected to the mains. Very few UK/European sets had an isoalting mains transdormer. It;s is a lot easier to isolate a VHF or UHF signal (a couple of special capacitors will do it) than baseband video/audio (which would involve spectial transformers or opto-isolators at least). I've seen a few top-end (B&) and the like) valved TVs (live chassis, of ocurse) which had a special audio transformer to provide an isolated (from the mains) audio output from the set to feed into a tape recorder or whatever. But it wasn't common at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 4 18:04:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 00:04:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Jan 3, 7 11:47:56 pm Message-ID: > I remember my parents having a Sharp amp plus Garrard record deck back in > the 70s that had similar connections for the speakers, but that's a bit OT > :) Are you sure you're not thinking of the 2 pin DIN speaker connector which has one flat pin in the centre of the (cylinderical) plug and a round pin alongside it? Very common... I believe, BTW, there's also a 2 pin DIN plug of the normal type (overall cylindtical mertal chell, all round pins). It has a plastic switch-operating peg too. It was used on a frw portable tape recorders for ecternal; PSU/removte control. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 4 18:48:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 00:48:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics (was: Wire Rope ROMs (Was: back to In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 3, 7 11:15:11 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > "Rick Bensene" writes: > > > [...] Wang is also > > famous for purposefully putting errors into published schematics to > > throw off competitors who would use such schematics to reverse-engineer > > how the machines work. [...] > > Wow, I'd never heard that story before. Interesting! I am wondering what the use is of a schematic that contains deliberate errors that are significant enough to stop the machine from working. OK, you can't use it to make a copy, but you surely can't also use it to repair the real machine (what do you do if the faulty part is a section that has errors in the schematics?). > > How many other companies did this back when schematics were pretty > much leaving the machine laying naked in front of you? I've never seen any 'deliberate errors' in HP, DEC, Tekky, etc diagrams. There's a very obvious error in the PERQ scheamtics book (I think in the tablet diagrams) where a 3 terminal regulator is drawn with all 3 pins tied to ground, but if you don't spot that one, you shouldn't be fixing a computer in the first place. And I don't think it's a deliberate error because it is so obvious. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 4 19:06:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 01:06:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Prime for sale again In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 4, 7 02:57:46 pm Message-ID: > > I think tony still has some room in his house :-) If that's refering to me, I don't think I do. Darn it, I've got problems fitting an HP9820 in at the moment... -tony From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 4 19:25:52 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 18:25:52 -0700 Subject: Prime for sale again In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 Jan 2007 01:06:47 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > I think tony still has some room in his house :-) > > If that's refering to me, I don't think I do. Darn it, I've got problems > fitting an HP9820 in at the moment... Heh heh... and when the brag list went by and we inquired how you fit it all in, you replied something along the lines of it being comfortable! :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 4 19:23:35 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 19:23:35 -0600 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459DA897.3010806@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I am wondering what the use is of a schematic that contains deliberate > errors that are significant enough to stop the machine from working. OK, > you can't use it to make a copy, but you surely can't also use it to > repair the real machine (what do you do if the faulty part is a section > that has errors in the schematics?). Yes, I can't figure that either. Surely it just annoys customers, plus incurs printing costs for the manufacturer? Why not just not release any schematics in the first place? A very strange practice indeed. I've seen errors on schematics before, but I've not heard of them being deliberate. From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Jan 4 14:36:57 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 20:36:57 +0000 Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: References: <459C373F.4010807@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 3, 7 05:07:43 pm Message-ID: <20070105013630.LHXG8030.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > It;s is a lot easier to isolate a VHF or UHF signal (a couple of special > capacitors will do it) than baseband video/audio (which would involve > spectial transformers or opto-isolators at least). I've seen a few > top-end (B&) and the like) valved TVs (live chassis, of ocurse) which had > a special audio transformer to provide an isolated (from the mains) audio > output from the set to feed into a tape recorder or whatever. But it > wasn't common at all. > > -tony Very common here also (chassis live) till mid 1990's then changed to isolation via the flyback transformer, partial hot chassis till flyback transformer. Then SMPS for isolation. Some do double isolation via SMPS then flyback transformer. Still, certain area of chassis (just a one board now) even on SMPS is hot. Isolation transformer is a MUST when servicing any even brand new set. No buts or ifs. Cheers, Wizard From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 4 19:45:01 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 20:45:01 -0500 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics In-Reply-To: <459DA897.3010806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200701050145.l051j775090197@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 19:23:35 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: >Yes, I can't figure that either. Surely it just annoys customers, plus incurs >printing costs for the manufacturer? Why not just not release any schematics >in the first place? Because in the good old days it was Federal law. The FTC or what ever they were called then required manufacturers to provide schematics for all electronic devices marketed int the US. Had to provide spare parts for something like 7 years too.... The lawyers changed all that years ago. Who else remembers the tiny little schematics inside, little transistor radios mostly from Japan. And all the 5 tube superhet radios with the schematics pasted on the bottom or back. just my 0.02 Bob Bradlee Bob From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jan 4 20:15:33 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 21:15:33 -0500 Subject: SGI Onyx power cord? In-Reply-To: <459D417A.4070409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <459D417A.4070409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200701042115.33931.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 04 January 2007 13:03, Jules Richardson wrote: > Richard wrote: > > In article , > > > > "r.stricklin" writes: > >> On Jan 3, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Richard wrote: > >>> Any other Onyx owners on the list? > >> > >> Yes. I have a deskside RE2, and a rackmount dual-pipe IR. > > > > Sweet, that makes three of us who have this configuration! > > Sigh, we got offered an Onyx dual-pipe IR a while back - 24 x R10k > CPUs and 4GB of RAM on it plus Sirius video as I recall. Unfortunately > I couldn't persuade anyone else at the museum that it'd be a fun > machine to have :-( I've got a rackmount Onyx with R44k processors. It's marked "test rack", an is in a purple rack with no sides, and a hole on the side, over part of a CPU board. As well, it's got a different LCD than the Challenge XL's I've got; the LCD matches the one on the smaller, deskside Onyx I think. It was recovered from an SGI dumpster, and probably is a prototype machine. Unfortunately, the graphics part seems to have some problem that keeps the machine from coming up when it's attached to the system. Still, being a prototype/engineering test system does count for something even if it's not 100% working. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 4 20:55:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 18:55:14 -0800 Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: References: from "Adrian Graham" at Jan 3, 7 11:47:56 pm, Message-ID: <459D4D92.31428.1FEA027@cclist.sydex.com> At one time, I owned a Roberts/Akai reel-to-reel tape deck (valve/tube model) in the 60's with a 5-pin DIN input connector. It was years before I figured out what it was, as it wasn't labeled. "Regular" input was via quarter-inch mono phone jacks. Cheers, Chuck From vrs at msn.com Thu Jan 4 21:12:25 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 19:12:25 -0800 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics (was: Wire Rope ROMs (Was: backto References: Message-ID: From: "Tony Duell" > I've never seen any 'deliberate errors' in HP, DEC, Tekky, etc diagrams. > There's a very obvious error in the PERQ scheamtics book (I think in the > tablet diagrams) where a 3 terminal regulator is drawn with all 3 pins > tied to ground, but if you don't spot that one, you shouldn't be fixing a > computer in the first place. And I don't think it's a deliberate error > because it is so obvious. So far, every DEC schematic that I've attempted to use to re-create hardware (based on the original designs) has had at least one, usually fairly obvious, error in it. Ones that I can name off the top of my head include the RX8E and the 8/A programmer's panel, though the exact error in the RX8E escapes me at the moment. I think it was a missing line segment, that makes a signal appear to be connected to one place, rather than another. What's fishy about it is that the scan is pretty clear, and there's no trace of the missing line segment. On the 8/A programmer's panel, the bit numbering is swizzled on the DIP jumpers between board 1 and board 2. I realize that these *could* be accidental, but they don't really seem that way to me. I had more or less assumed that they had done that deliberately to complicate efforts like mine :-). I guess the suspicious part is that I seem to always find exactly one thing that is wrong. Vince From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 4 21:22:47 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 19:22:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics In-Reply-To: <459DA897.3010806@yahoo.co.uk> References: <459DA897.3010806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070104191226.C25772@shell.lmi.net> Tony Duell wrote: > I am wondering what the use is of a schematic that contains deliberate > errors that are significant enough to stop the machine from working. OK, D'ya mean like nonexistent streets and towns in UK Ordnance Survey maps? I could make a fortune in the coffee table gift book market by putting out a collection of photographs of rural mailboxes, and changing my name to Lillian Virgina Mountweazel! Nihilartikels, Mountweazels, and pseudata are a longstanding tradition. XenoCopy includes support for a format for which I had the only instance (prototype) of the machine. Was that esquivalience? I also once misspellled the name of one format; a couple of other programs ended up supporting that misspelt machine. BTW, my car really was parked in "Gates Alley" at the time. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Jan 4 21:14:06 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 21:14:06 -0600 Subject: OT: Missing quotes in message replies In-Reply-To: <459D5642.8050806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070104211311.0cb4eec8@localhost> Well, At 01:32 PM 1/4/2007 -0600, you wrote: >I'm seeing a few messages where the text being replied to isn't quoted >(anything from Al and Billy Pettit it seems, but there have been one or >two others) other than a separating line beneath old and new text, making >it confusing at first glance (particularly where the actual line and reply >might be off the bottom of the screen). This is a reply to the 3 or so lines above, which definitely show as quoted in Eudora Pro. >Am I alone in this? I just wondered if it's something broken within my >email client (Thunderbird) and it's stopped rendering what it thinks is >quoted text properly for certain classes of messages. [Sex] If your life at night is good, you think you have everything. - -Euripides (B.C. 480-406) Medea --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 4 21:44:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 20:44:00 -0700 Subject: 22 rolls of paper tape @ govliq Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 4 21:46:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 19:46:53 -0800 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics In-Reply-To: <20070104191226.C25772@shell.lmi.net> References: , <459DA897.3010806@yahoo.co.uk>, <20070104191226.C25772@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <459D59AD.3087.22DE923@cclist.sydex.com> To be certain, some errors/additions are deliberate; Rand McNally generally sprikles a few non-existent landmarks in their maps; Google satellite maps have "watermarks" that can be very confusing. I spied what looked to be clearing on some of my forested land and hiked to the very spot and found--trees, just like everywhere else. It took some conferring with a USGS employee to discover that what I thought was a clearing was a rather subtle watermark (viewed in just the right way, you can make out a "Go". On the other hand, we've gotten very spoiled. Go to the Univac 7900 operation documents in bitsavers and you'll discover that their biquinary-to-decimal table counts 1, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... Incidentally, the 7900 used magnetic core pulse logic, so it's an AC- coupled system (tying two threads together again!). The aforementioned manual is very long but makes interesting reading, if you're into that sort of stuff. The assembler turns out to be written by some joker named Knuth... Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 4 21:47:58 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 20:47:58 -0700 Subject: 22 rolls of paper tape @ govliq In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 20:44:00 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > 584 boxes of 5.25" disks NIB as well... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 22:24:45 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:24:45 -0500 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: References: <459D6DA8.7020808@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: > So noone has one of the Intergraph workstations? A pity. They were a > dominant player, you'd have expected some of the machines to survive! There are quite a few in Rhode Island at both computer groups. Even an Intergraph VAX, with weird disk controllers made to search for polygon data in hardware. -- Will From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 4 22:46:45 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 20:46:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Big, heavy, but not blue, IBM stuff In-Reply-To: <459D61CD.974DADA3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <346790.26236.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Includes a 3490E and 3475, See: http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=157949 It's located in Fort Lauderdale, FL Bob From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 23:02:36 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 00:02:36 -0500 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics In-Reply-To: <459D4C23.6080708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <459D4C23.6080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > To get back on topic about babbage's drawings, > from what I read it was mechnical design that > could not be produced with 18th century mechanical > enginering. There is some vague truth to this, but basically no, the technology was indeed there. Almost. During the 19th century, British precision machining was lacking, as the machinists at the time were very reluctant to use many of the new tools. The Germans, and especially the Americans, at the time very eagerly embraced the new tools and left the British machinists behind. Very few British machinists took up the new tools, and those that did could have done the work. There is a very good book I once read about this, and it slips my mind right now. For a practical example - look at mid 19th century firearms at the time: British interchangable parts aren't. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 4 23:02:42 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 00:02:42 -0500 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66dbfc173e346d3c930bed422a240726@neurotica.com> On Jan 3, 2007, at 10:58 PM, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have a machine with an Clipper RISC cpu in it? > > Wikipedia says that > only two companies ever used the Clipper (from Fairchild) were > Intergraph > and High Level Hardware. HLH I never heard of before; Intergraph I > know of because they're big in CAD and GIS markets. Ah, WikiP says > that HLF was UK firm that made the Orion. Anyone got one? I have several Clipper CPU modules, but no machines wrapped around them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jan 4 23:50:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 00:50:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Missing quotes in message replies In-Reply-To: <459D5642.8050806@yahoo.co.uk> References: <459D5642.8050806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200701050552.AAA23234@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I'm seeing a few messages where the text being replied to isn't > quoted [...] other than a separating line beneath old and new text, > making it confusing [...]. > Am I alone in this? In seeing it, or in finding it confusing? :-) In either case, "no". > I just wondered if it's something broken within my email client > (Thunderbird) and it's stopped rendering what it thinks is quoted > text properly for certain classes of messages. No. My mail client doesn't do fancy-schmancy rendering - it runs in a text window, in fact - and it shows me the emails as they are. It doesn't even burst MIME multipart messages without specific action on my part. And I'm seeing the same syndrome you sketch. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 5 00:11:55 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 22:11:55 -0800 Subject: 22 rolls of paper tape @ govliq Message-ID: <4A83E78E-4E60-4E3C-BE14-C1E40A2B9D51@bitsavers.org> the most interesting thing was it says who made it http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/haystack? nsn=7530001806260&eventId=2687&lotNumber=3209 http://www.arlon.com/ecp/duralon.asp sounds like pretty fancy stuff, paper,plastic,paper composite tape From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 5 00:11:22 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 01:11:22 -0500 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> <200701011342.04956.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200701050111.22141.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 02 January 2007 12:05, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 1, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > He's aparently not as crazy as I am to have some x-ray gear at home > > (then again, I've never used it partly because I don't know enough > > about > > dosages to determine what's safe, and how much to use to expose film > > properly, etc). > > What type of equipment do you have, if you don't mind my asking? Sorry, replying slipped my mind. I've got some old lab X-ray gear (well, just the transformer tubes, and tube housings to direct the beam) from uni surplus. At one point, I had of pair of 240V in, 60kV peak output transformers, which I wired out-of-phase to make a 120kV spark between them (they're big, and oil-filled). They produced a pretty nifty effect, until one of the transformers developed an open winding... (I had to use one of the lower-power input taps on the transformers, to use them both on a single 30A 240V circuit.) I guess that they're designed for pulsed use, and the x-ray tubes draw less power than a straight arc does. :) I've also got two (I think... might be one) rackmount 60kVDC power supplies to drive x-ray tubes, in x-ray scanning equipemnt (shove a sample in, and it scans the sample with x-rays, somehow). Due to Purdue policies, X-ray equipment is normally "disabled" (wires cut at least, now they usually pull out boards), so it's harder to get intact equipment. But, they generally leave the power supply intact, and the x-ray tube is still usable if you solder on some extensions to the wires they cut off. I got a bigger x-ray transformer box (the tube was shattered from moving), but even with the oil out, it was way too heavy to move around, so I ended giving that back. They also had some Ion Implater units, which I was hoping to snag one of, and had planned to snag one, with a 200 - 500kVDC output (Can't remember for sure anymore) and a beefy 3phase input with some nice controls on it for voltage/current adjust. They looked like they were practically new Varian units, donated by Intel, but they weren't what the Donatee expected to get, so they got sent out. At about 3000lbs for each, I had no way to move them, and they ended up getting scrapped instead. :/ The next time I see a >200kVDC power supply, I'm gonna have to try to get it. Imagine the size of the jacob's ladder you could make with that. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 5 00:16:42 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 22:16:42 -0800 Subject: OT: Missing quotes in message replies Message-ID: <6F3F90ED-DE8A-4997-9022-2B6CD842FF78@bitsavers.org> >I'm seeing a few messages where the text being replied to isn't quoted >(anything from Al and Billy Pettit it seems, but there have been one or >two others) other than a separating line beneath old and new text We're both using the web interface to the list to quickly scan the msgs then doing cut/paste to compose replies. The big problem with doing this is it loses the thread info in the mail header so they don't thread. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 5 00:42:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 22:42:00 -0800 Subject: Parametron In-Reply-To: References: <459D2337.70804@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <459D82B8.21304.2CE386C@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2007 at 8:04, dwight elvey wrote: > Could someone please tell me how one uses a Parametron to > make logic? Nothing that I see on the web actually explains > the operation. All it says is that a 180 degree shift in phase > could be treated as a 1 or a zero. Eichi Goto's basic patent is US Patent 2948818. Look it up here: http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm The explanation is quite elegant. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jan 4 16:13:54 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 17:13:54 -0500 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available Message-ID: <0JBD00D346YBM1S7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available > From: Brent Hilpert > Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 01:29:50 -0800 > To: General at priv-edmwaa05.telusplanet.net, > "Discussion at priv-edmwaa05.telusplanet.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Allison wrote: > >> >(And it confirmed that the AGC was constructed from a single gate/IC type.) >> >> That statement I believe is in error. While the logic used was RTL and a >> single family type the logic elements for that family by the mid 60s were >> more diverse than just a two input NOR. My junkbox contains parts from > >There are now two, perhaps three, sources from the period that indicate it was >a single gate/IC type: a dual 3-input NOR in 10-pin flat-pak. Read the >document Chuck ref'ed above (although there do seem to be some >mis-rememberings in there such as LCD instead of EL displays). I'm well aware >of the state of RTL/IC development at the time, but high-reliabiliy design >doesn't necessarily correlate with whats current in the rest of the industry. >Keep in mind the design started years before 1967/8. The IC spec sheets are >dated 1965. Around early '66 a friend that whose father worked for Grumman and NASA gave me several of the 10 pin flat packs with info. They were indeed 3input NOR but, he also provided a RS-FF in the same package. They sat in my collection for years until they were lost in a move. Shortly after that a neighbor that worked for Airborne and he brought me an engineering junk box that contained fairchild uL9xx parts galore plus a lot of aerospace qualified transistors. It was then I started working on understanding logic and how useful those RTL parts were. As to displays LEDs were indeed available in the mid 60s though they were not bright and the only color was red. I also have Burroughs Nixies from then and a 40 character selfscan from the era. I'd never seen EL used in anything other than backlight. There was also VF (vacuum florescent) displays as they were easily driven with available transistors. One of the problems then with transistors was low (usually less than 60V) breakdown voltage and most common devices were more like 25V. That complicates drivers for HV displays. Though for a price there were a lot of things available than were new or low volume. Allison From adamg at pobox.com Thu Jan 4 16:28:24 2007 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 17:28:24 -0500 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion Message-ID: <20070104222823.GA89145@silme.pair.com> Richard wrote: > Does anyone have a machine with an Clipper RISC cpu in it? Intergraph's Interpro series (such as the 225) had both a Clipper and an 80186, and could run CLIX as well as MS-DOS. IIRC, when running with the 186, the Clipper is programmed to act as an FPU! These machines were unusual for their time. The keyboard and mouse plug into the monitor, and the configuration system is mouse-driven. I'm not sure if it's in ROM or loaded from a reserved part of the hard drive. Their keyboard has a hard disk access LED and a bunch of extra keys. These machines seem to have been used mainly by government contractors, and they're not terribly common, but there are certainly some in the hands of collectors. -- Adam From billy.d.tucker at smithbarney.com Thu Jan 4 16:16:28 2007 From: billy.d.tucker at smithbarney.com (Tucker, Billy D [PVTC]) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 17:16:28 -0500 Subject: Ebay: HP 82045A Thermal Paper Message-ID: <42A8ECF5282C8543B245A0A1828E76AF14F272@EXRNJMB08.nam.nsroot.net> I am interersted in buying some thermal paper for a Hewlett Packard printer. Can you give me any help? My email at home is btu68 at aol.com. Billy T. -------------------------------------------------------------- Reminder: E-mail sent through the Internet is not secure. Do not use e-mail to send us confidential information such as credit card numbers, changes of address, PIN numbers, passwords, or other important information. Do not e-mail orders to buy or sell securities, transfer funds, or send time sensitive instructions. We will not accept such orders or instructions. This e-mail is not an official trade confirmation for transactions executed for your account. Your e-mail message is not private in that it is subject to review by the Firm, its officers, agents and employees. -------------------------------------------------------------- From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jan 4 19:52:37 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 01:52:37 +0000 Subject: Missing Bits In-Reply-To: <01C72FA1.5591B100@MSE_D03> References: <01C72FA1.5591B100@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <459DAF65.3080608@gjcp.net> M H Stein wrote: > the old Amdahl buildings. I can visualize the people and systems but can't > remember the name. Getting old sucks. I bumped into one of my fiancee's best friends in the pub earlier (she and a friend had stopped in for one of their rather good pizzas). Went to introduce her to my friend, and couldn't remember her name. At all. Blank. Hadn't even had a single sip of my beer at that point. I carry my driving licence with me, in case anyone asks me my name. I have genuinely been asked my name, and just gone blank. I cannot remember names, sometimes not even my own. Worst of it is, I'm 33, not even old. I'm hoping I get better as I get older, or at least have more of an excuse... Gordon From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Jan 4 22:03:02 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 20:03:02 -0800 Subject: House cleaning! Everything must go! Message-ID: <459DCDF6.4000200@msu.edu> Ok, not _everything_ but rather an incredible simulation! I've managed to amass quite a bit of vintage-ish computer hardware that I haven't got much use for any longer -- I figure that someone out there can make better use of this stuff than I currently am. All of this stuff is free, unless otherwise noted -- I just want this stuff _gone_. At the moment I realllly prefer local pick-up (in the Seattle area) since I don't have a lot of time to be shipping stuff out. Unless otherwise noted, the items are in working condition (or were the last time I used them). A lot of these are listed sans RAM/hard disk/keyboard -- I have a lot of extra parts lying around and if you need one I'm happy to throw it in for you, if I have suitable spares. Some of these I don't remember all of the details of offhand (just did a quick perusal of my inventory), so if you have specific questions or need clarification, let me know and I'll figure it out for ya... And of course, since this stuff is free, you get what you pay for -- I've tried to do my best to be honest about the state of the below junk, but I haven't used some of it in years so I make no guarantees. Thanks! Josh The items are as follows: Computers: - Apple Network Server 700/200. 200Mhz 603 PPC, 128mb of ram, CD-ROM, tape drive, and a number of empty drive trays. Notable as the only Apple computer made after the original Mac that doesn't run MacOS. Makes a great Linux/NetBSD machine, or if you have a copy of AIX 4.1 for it... - SGI Octane, 200Mhz R10k, 512mb ram, no hard disk (or tray, unfortunately...). Cabinet is slightly scuffed in front. - SGI Indigo2, 250Mhz R4400, Solid Impact video, unknown RAM (fully populated). No hard disk (or trays... sigh...) - 2x Sun Sparcstation 10, framebuffer, 40Mhz CPU, sans RAM & hard disk. - Sun Ultra 5, 266Mhz UltraSparc. - Sun Ultra 1, Creator 3D video. - Sun SparcServer 670MP. 4x40Mhz, 64mb RAM (huge, good for an anchor, ballast, scrap iron, or if you have a lot of Sun VME boards...). CD-ROM, 2.0gb hard disk w/SunOS 4.1.4 installed. Missing rear cover, and missing wheels on bottom, which makes it fun to move. - 2x HP Apollo 715/75 -- not working, no ram, no hard disk, missing 1 CPU in one of them. Listing this just in case someone needs parts... - HP Apollo 735, 24mb ram (I think...), no hard disk. - HP Apollo 700, no hard disk. - Zenith luggable PC (no idea on the model, the label sticker on the back is unreadable). 2x5.25" floppy, 8088, 640k ram (all you'll ever need.) Missing keyboard, but takes standard XT keyboard. - Intergraph TD-310. Dual PPro-200Mhz, no RAM. - Sony "ViewSystem" VIW-5000. Is it a 286 PC? Is it a Laserdisc player? No, it's both! I have no idea what this was intended to be used for, but it sure is weird. And large. And free! - Apple G3 "All-In-One". 233Mhz G3, built in 15" CRT, no hard disk. Will run OS X 10.3, with some trickery. - Apple Powermac 8100/80av. Ugly as sin, but has 233Mhz G3 upgrade in PDS slot, which evens that out a bit. - PowerComputing PowerBase 200. - Unknown portable X-Terminal w/plasma display. No power supply or peripherals. I have no idea if it works. - Network Computing Devices X-Terminal. Misc parts: - Big box of 386, 486, and Pentium motherboards & expansion cards (serial/parallel/ide combo cards, video, etc...). Most have CPUs, and ignoring the inevitable CMOS battery failures, should still work fine. - Mac IIfx motherboard, sans RAM and ROM simm. Works, but ROM simm is missing. Monitors: - Intergraph Intervue 20". Multi-frequency (not multisync), works at standard VGA frequencies, higher resolutions are at specific frequencies only, and are somewhat oddball. If you have a Matrox video card, their "Powerdesk" drivers have special support for this monitor, which makes using it under Windows quite easy. Works fine under X with specialized timings. - Radius Portrait/15 Pivot. 15", portrait/landscape. Neat. - Mag 17" monitor. Works OK most of the time, but screen sometimes randomly changes width. A fun weekend project for someone! Printers & Peripherals: - HP Laserjet II. Non-working, but probably easy to fix (has trouble pulling paper out of the tray, otherwise works fine last time I tried it). Needs new toner cartridge. - TRS-80 DMP-120 printer, unknown condition, but seems complete. - HP PaintJet. Very early inkjet printer. Worked the last time I used it, no idea if you can still buy ink for it... - Kodak Photo CD burner (external SCSI box). This is a standard 2x CD-R drive, as far as I know... Other, sort of OT, but sort of computer related: - Sony LDP-1000A Laserdisc player (hey, it has an RS-232 port on the back!) - Pioneer LD-V4200 Laserdisc player (also w/RS-232 port) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 5 01:18:31 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:18:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: House cleaning! Everything must go! In-Reply-To: <459DCDF6.4000200@msu.edu> from Josh Dersch at "Jan 4, 7 08:03:02 pm" Message-ID: <200701050718.l057IVZW009138@floodgap.com> > Computers: > - Apple Network Server 700/200. 200Mhz 603 PPC, 128mb of ram, CD-ROM, 604 actually. This message is being sent by a 500/200 :) > tape drive, and a number of empty drive trays. Notable as the only > Apple computer made after the original Mac that doesn't run MacOS. > Makes a great Linux/NetBSD machine, or if you have a copy of AIX 4.1 for > it... They are nice "big" servers, lots of drive bays. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The Living Daylights" ----------------------------- From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 01:19:34 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 02:19:34 -0500 Subject: microprocessors in my vax 3800 Message-ID: Today I pulled out the boards in my vax 3800 and I found 7 microprocessors besides the CVAX. They are, 2x 68000, 8096, 80186, 2x 8086, Z80. Just a little discovery to share with you. vax, 9000 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 5 01:51:22 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 23:51:22 -0800 Subject: Parametron In-Reply-To: <459D82B8.21304.2CE386C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 4 Jan 2007 at 8:04, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Could someone please tell me how one uses a Parametron to > > make logic? Nothing that I see on the web actually explains > > the operation. All it says is that a 180 degree shift in phase > > could be treated as a 1 or a zero. > >Eichi Goto's basic patent is US Patent 2948818. > >Look it up here: http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm > >The explanation is quite elegant. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi Chuck I see how the resonators work and can be both bistable in phase as well as amplify. I don't yet get the logic function but I skipped a lot of the text. I'll study it some more and it should sink in. It is similar to meg amps used for things like driving high power servos and such. Thanks for tracking this down. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! ?MSN Shopping Sales & Deals http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200639 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jan 5 02:47:11 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 08:47:11 +0000 Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/1/07 00:04, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> I remember my parents having a Sharp amp plus Garrard record deck back in >> the 70s that had similar connections for the speakers, but that's a bit OT >> :) > > Are you sure you're not thinking of the 2 pin DIN speaker connector which > has one flat pin in the centre of the (cylinderical) plug and a round pin > alongside it? Very common... Ah, that's the one.... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 5 06:26:41 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 12:26:41 +0000 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: <459D2AB6.1000004@yahoo.co.uk> References: <459D2337.70804@bitsavers.org> <459D2AB6.1000004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <459E4401.6070007@dunnington.plus.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: > Pete wrote >> There were two Orions in >> the Computer Science machine room when I went to York, and I know where >> both went -- to a collector just along the road from me. >> >> Did either still have the original 2901 based processor? >> Apparently most HLH machines were upgraded to Clippers CPUs > > Pete will hopefully know. I'm starting to wonder about Jim's pair now; > the usenet posting I referred to earlier suggests they were Clippers, > but I've just been scanning past emails from Jim and he refers to them > as being microcoded. I haven't found the rest of the conversation yet, > though, which might shed some more light on things. I don't know, but there are a couple of people I can ask, who used the machines extensively when they were in mainstream use. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 5 07:48:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 07:48:21 -0600 Subject: Prime "Toons" hardware Message-ID: <459E5725.8030205@yahoo.co.uk> Dan's message about his Prime made me go glance at the Prime FAQ, and I noticed these few lines: * Prime had operational prototypes of the entire Toons system running in the lab when it was cancelled. * After the meeting to announce the closing of Prime, engineers returned to the lab and continued working on booting Primos on the Toons system. They were successful. The Toons hardware was the next generation, in development when Prime went under; I hadn't realised that it was essentially operational though. Does a complete example was ever rescued and now exists either in a museum or in private hands? cheers Jules From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jan 5 07:55:21 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 08:55:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Text-based UI... Message-ID: <20070105135521.0835358357@mail.wordstock.com> Since when is a text-based UI a bad thing?!! http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/05/0025241 Cheers, Bryan From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jan 5 08:13:38 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:13:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Text-based UI... In-Reply-To: <20070105135521.0835358357@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070105135521.0835358357@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jan 2007, Bryan Pope wrote: > Since when is a text-based UI a bad thing?!! > > http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/05/0025241 I wrote (and still maintain) a network client that uses a ncurses-based interface as an alternative to a Java client for the same server. It's fast, and has most of the functionality of the Java client. All you have to do is open a ssh connection to a specific port on the (Unix) server, and instant client. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 5 08:11:16 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 08:11:16 -0600 Subject: Text-based UI... In-Reply-To: <20070105135521.0835358357@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070105135521.0835358357@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <459E5C84.2030204@yahoo.co.uk> Bryan Pope wrote: > > Since when is a text-based UI a bad thing?!! > > http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/05/0025241 heh heh - I like the way almost every single reply advocates the use of a different development app/language. I bet the poor original poster is totally confused (which serves them right for not realising that text-based interfaces have their place too :-) I remember doing work to put Java / Web-based front ends onto AS/400 stuff back in the mid-90s (at the customer's request, I hasten to add - they wanted to "embrace the web", along with any other number of nauseating marketing-driven things). It was, by and large, utter hell. Interfacing between an OO language in a graphical, web-oriented client environment and the AS/400 way of doing things was "interesting" to say the least. (not that I'm knocking either - but the two just didn't mix well!) From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Jan 5 08:25:47 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 08:25:47 -0600 Subject: Text-based UI... In-Reply-To: <459E5C84.2030204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <000c01c730d5$64c8d880$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 8:11 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Text-based UI... > > Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > Since when is a text-based UI a bad thing?!! > > > > http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/05/0025241 > > heh heh - I like the way almost every single reply advocates > the use of a different development app/language. I bet the > poor original poster is totally confused (which serves them > right for not realising that text-based interfaces have their > place too :-) > > I remember doing work to put Java / Web-based front ends onto > AS/400 stuff back in the mid-90s (at the customer's request, > I hasten to add - they wanted to "embrace the web", along > with any other number of nauseating marketing-driven things). > It was, by and large, utter hell. Interfacing between an OO > language in a graphical, web-oriented client environment and > the AS/400 way of doing things was "interesting" to say the > least. (not that I'm knocking either - but the two just > didn't mix well!) > >From what I've read, the need for AS/400 systems to be visible via the web hasn't gone unnoticed by IBM. OS/400 (as of at least V5R1) has a built in web server (HTTP Server, but it's really just Apache) The great part of that system is that you can use it alongside the text-based UI, and give the customer side whichever interface they want. Too bad it sounds like they just want to abandon their AS/400 setup, it might be easier just to stick with it. From kelly at catcorner.org Fri Jan 5 08:32:53 2007 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:32:53 -0500 Subject: GBC System 9 computer Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B1481@MEOW.catcorner.org> Just rescued one of these units from Craig's List. It's waiting for me a a friends house in Richmond, VA. Anyone know much about these? I think they're just a rebadged Northstar Advantage. It has a bunch of software and a manual or two. There doesn't seem to be a lot of information on these on the web. I did see the information at Dave Dunfield's site, and the disk archive there. Any manuals that have been scanned? I didn't see the Advantage line at bitsavers. Thanks for any help, Kelly From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 09:08:31 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 10:08:31 -0500 Subject: Missing Bits In-Reply-To: <459DAF65.3080608@gjcp.net> References: <01C72FA1.5591B100@MSE_D03> <459DAF65.3080608@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <459E69EF.2070504@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > >> the old Amdahl buildings. I can visualize the people and systems but >> can't >> remember the name. Getting old sucks. > > I bumped into one of my fiancee's best friends in the pub earlier (she > and a friend had stopped in for one of their rather good pizzas). Went > to introduce her to my friend, and couldn't remember her name. At all. > Blank. Hadn't even had a single sip of my beer at that point. > > I carry my driving licence with me, in case anyone asks me my name. I > have genuinely been asked my name, and just gone blank. I cannot > remember names, sometimes not even my own. I forget my own name all the time. Or my phone number. Or my address. Sometimes I forget where I am. > Worst of it is, I'm 33, not even old. I'm hoping I get better as I get > older, or at least have more of an excuse... I'm 29. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From bpritts at pritts.com Fri Jan 5 09:51:07 2007 From: bpritts at pritts.com (Brad Pritts) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 10:51:07 -0500 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics Message-ID: <459E73EB.60702@pritts.com> A long time ago I was involved with licensing databases (of new and used car price books-- e.g. Edmunds, Kelley Blue Book, etc.) They had the custom of salting the data with a few deliberate errors so that in the event of an infringement suit, they could prove that their data had been copied by the infringer, rather than independently created. I can't say whether the same purpose applies to schematics, but it just might be. Brad To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <459D59AD.3087.22DE923 at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To be certain, some errors/additions are deliberate; Rand McNally generally sprikles a few non-existent landmarks in their maps; Google satellite maps have "watermarks" that can be very confusing. I spied what looked to be clearing on some of my forested land and hiked to the very spot and found--trees, just like everywhere else. It took some conferring with a USGS employee to discover that what I thought was a clearing was a rather subtle watermark (viewed in just the right way, you can make out a "Go". From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 10:05:48 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 11:05:48 -0500 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics In-Reply-To: <459E73EB.60702@pritts.com> References: <459E73EB.60702@pritts.com> Message-ID: > I can't say whether the same purpose applies to schematics, > but it just might be. During the 1970s and 80s, you would see this sort of thing with projects in Radio Electronics and other hobbyist magazines. IN R-E, Optoelectronics and PAIA were the worst offenders. Sometimes that would even add (or delete) extra traces from the circuit board artwork. I suppose all of this was to make you pull your hair out, give up, and order the kit. -- Will From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Jan 5 11:30:20 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:30:20 -0500 Subject: GBC System 9 computer In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B1481@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200701051636.l05GaEc7032008@hosting.monisys.ca> > Just rescued one of these units from Craig's List. It's waiting for me a a friends house in > Richmond, VA. Anyone know much about these? I think they're just a rebadged Northstar Advantage. > > It has a bunch of software and a manual or two. > > There doesn't seem to be a lot of information on these on the web. I did see the information at Dave > Dunfield's site, and the disk archive there. Any manuals that have been scanned? I didn't see the > Advantage line at bitsavers. This is timely - I've just put up a number of Advantage disk images within the past few weeks. I do have a complete set of Advantage documentation which I will be scanning over time, but it's going to take a while. The GDOS/GBASIC, MBASIC and Fortran manuals are ring bound which makes them fairly easy to scan - they may be a bit too tattered for my auto-feeder, but I have a manual sheet fed scanner which goes fairly quickly if needed - but it's still going to take a fair bit of effort. The Advantage user manual is staple bound and not too thick, so I can unbind it and scan it - since it's double wide pages I'll need to do it on the flatbed, but since it's small it also shouldn't be too bad... Unfortunately both the System Software manual and the Technical/Service manuals are perfect bound - and both quite thick. This is where I really wish I had a book scanner. The System Software manual is just the N* DOS/BASIC manual - I have an older version of this already on my site which will probably do you fine. The technical/service manual is just going to have to wait a while. Assuming the GBC is a rebadged Advantage, I'd be interested in software/documentation that you have as well. Regards. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 5 10:45:58 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 09:45:58 -0700 Subject: Missing Bits In-Reply-To: <459E69EF.2070504@gmail.com> References: <01C72FA1.5591B100@MSE_D03> <459DAF65.3080608@gjcp.net> <459E69EF.2070504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <459E80C6.1000905@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I forget my own name all the time. Or my phone number. Or my address. > Sometimes I forget where I am. > Since I don't hear PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH WHOOSH CLICK I am guessing you are at some keyboard now rather than some key punch. :) > Peace... Sridhar > From ken at seefried.com Fri Jan 5 10:51:05 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 11:51:05 -0500 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: <200701051356.l05DtdRe054914@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200701051356.l05DtdRe054914@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070105165105.466.qmail@seefried.com> I recall Opus made a AT bus plugin card with a Clipper. Think it ran Clix. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 10:52:40 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 09:52:40 -0700 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 Jan 2007 10:51:07 -0500. <459E73EB.60702@pritts.com> Message-ID: In article <459E73EB.60702 at pritts.com>, Brad Pritts writes: > They had the custom of salting the data with a few deliberate > errors so that in the event of an infringement suit, > they could prove that their data had > been copied by the infringer, rather than independently created. Yes, the only maps you can trust not to have intentionally fake data on them are those generated by the USGS. Delorme, National Geographic, etc., all add fake place names to the map to assist in proving theft of IP. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 10:48:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 09:48:44 -0700 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 23:24:45 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > > So noone has one of the Intergraph workstations? A pity. They were a > > dominant player, you'd have expected some of the machines to survive! > > There are quite a few in Rhode Island at both computer groups. You say this as if I should know what "both computer groups" means. Who has them? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 11:12:33 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 10:12:33 -0700 Subject: govliq messages Message-ID: Govliquidation.com doesn't exactly have the best descriptions, pictures, or search engine, but it does have lots of interesting stuff popping up there from time-to-time. Because its such a pain to find things on there, when I stumble across something that someone here might find interesting, I post a note with the lot link. Does anyone find this useful? Does anyone find this annoying? If its more annoying than useful, I'll stop giving y'all a heads up on these items. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 11:28:51 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:28:51 -0500 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > You say this as if I should know what "both computer groups" means. > Who has them? :-) RCS/RI and RICM. Both groups are rather dormant and a bit introverted. Both groups need a swift kick in the ass, too. RICM actually has an absolutely huge collection, and both groups have a good number of real gems in the collections. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 11:31:25 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:31:25 -0500 Subject: govliq messages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Does anyone find this useful? I find them useful from anyone (govliq or Ebay), providing the subject line states what is there. I do not like "Hey, look at this" subject lines. -- Will From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jan 5 11:35:18 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 11:35:18 -0600 Subject: govliq messages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459E8C56.5010706@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > > Because its such a pain to find things on there, when I stumble across > something that someone here might find interesting, I post a note with > the lot link. > > If its more annoying than useful, I'll stop giving y'all a heads up on > these items. I like it. It's not like you post 40 links a day, and they're always interesting if not relevant to my needs/wants. The best part is your posting format. You do describe the link, but you do it *briefly*. Easy to read, easy to evaluate, and easy to ignore if I don't care. My $0.02 for free. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 11:36:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 10:36:17 -0700 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 Jan 2007 12:28:51 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > > You say this as if I should know what "both computer groups" means. > > Who has them? :-) > > RCS/RI and RICM. Sorry to be a pest, but these acronyms don't mean anything to me. Googling for RICM turns up "renewal in christ ministries" and a host of other non-computer related things. Do you have a URL or a full name? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 5 11:51:07 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:51:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: govliq messages In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 05, 2007 10:12:33 AM Message-ID: <200701051751.l05Hp7EX008812@onyx.spiritone.com> > Does anyone find this useful? Frustrating would be a better term, as it's not practical at this time for me to go for any of it :^) > Does anyone find this annoying? I don't find it the least bit annoying, some of those pictures on the links can be interesting. Plus it's interesting to see what's turning up, AND if a WIS Workstation ever shows up, I'd probably have to figure out how to go for it :^) Zane From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 11:57:04 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 10:57:04 -0700 Subject: DECmate I program loading via serial port Message-ID: According to the docs, by sending a special escape sequence you can download a program into the DECmate I over the serial terminal line. Has anyone done this? I have a DECmate I with no floppy drives although it has the interface card for the drives. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 5 12:04:43 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:04:43 -0600 Subject: govliq messages References: Message-ID: <005e01c730f3$fcb2f040$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > Does anyone find this useful? > > Does anyone find this annoying? > > If its more annoying than useful, I'll stop giving y'all a heads up on > these items. Re: govliq messages... I find it useful, long as it's done when something unique or of special interest shows up. As long as it doesn't turn into a "daily or weekly" summary type thing, I'm all for it. Just keep in mind that most of the listmembers here do scan ebay and govliq regularly... and we certainly don't want someone posting here every time any PDP-11 board goes up on ebay. But from time to time something neat shows up and isn't clearly labled or is in the wrong category so most of our searches don't find it. Those gems we're all too happy to hear about :) Jay From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 12:28:22 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 11:28:22 -0700 Subject: govliq messages In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 Jan 2007 12:04:43 -0600. <005e01c730f3$fcb2f040$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <005e01c730f3$fcb2f040$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > I find it useful, long as it's done when something unique or of special > interest shows up. I find that for ebay, its search mechanism is useful enough that getting a heads up on something is rarely necessary, unless its been miscategorized. However, with govliq I find that it really takes a lot of manual scraping through lots to find something interesting, even with their search agent. When I stumble across something vintage, I posted a link here because I know how much trouble it was for me to find it and I figure I'd save others the pain. > summary type thing, I'm all for it. Just keep in mind that most of the > listmembers here do scan ebay and govliq regularly... Hence my query. The consensus seems to be that I don't post links to ordinary crap and that some don't have the time to sift through govliq on any sort of regular basis and find the links I post interesting. I don't think the number of links I've posted has been excessive, at least noone's complained :-). So I'll continue the practice of occasionally posting links... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jan 5 13:47:01 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 19:47:01 -0000 (GMT) Subject: not quite on topic but, classic analogue satellite tv decoding boxes Message-ID: <1853.192.168.0.4.1168026421.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Hello folks, I've got a pair of old UK SKY TV boxen (1997 era) that are pretty useless as analogue SKY TV was switched off in 2001; can the hardware be used for anything else or is it pretty much paperweight material? Ta, -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jan 5 13:54:51 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 11:54:51 -0800 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366AE@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: To be certain, some errors/additions are deliberate; Rand McNally generally sprikles a few non-existent landmarks in their maps; Google satellite maps have "watermarks" that can be very confusing. I spied what looked to be clearing on some of my forested land and hiked to the very spot and found--trees, just like everywhere else. It took some conferring with a USGS employee to discover that what I thought was a clearing was a rather subtle watermark (viewed in just the right way, you can make out a "Go". Cheers, Chuck ------------------------------------- Billy wrote: It also happens closer to home in our mutual field. In the 1970's, CDC was working hard on Russian alliances. They had to prove that Russian technology was as advanced as the products CDC wanted to ship. (The old DoD guideline.) So they bought some Russian 8080's and tested them. Everything was going good until they decapped the chip. Inside, under a microscope, they found an image of Mickey Mouse's head in the metal layer. Of course, put there by Intel engineers to spot copy cat reverse engineering. The Russians hadn't caught up in technology; they had bought masks under the table and made complete ripoffs. I know other IC vendors use similiar tricks to identify their IP. One I have seen is an entire section of circuitry that has no outputs - like the old famous write only logic. And it has been faithfully copied by several Asian suppliers. Billy From trag at io.com Fri Jan 5 13:35:39 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 13:35:39 -0600 Subject: Outbound Laptop; Was: Mac OS vintage In-Reply-To: <200701050731.l057VFuq051679@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200701050731.l057VFuq051679@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 13:43:12 -0500 >From: Brad Parker >Jeff Walther wrote: >> >>Additionally, the Outbound Laptop is an interesting beast in that it >>uses 2.5" IDE hard drives. This is the first Macintosh to use an >>IDE device by many many years. I don't think any Apple Mac used >>them until the Quadra 630 and its performa and LC cousins. > >Perhaps true, but there were macs with 3.5" st-506 drives long before >that. There may have been Apple machines with ST-506s but unless my memory is much worse than I hope, there was never a Macintosh with an ST-506. Unless you're thinking of the "Macintosh Hard Disk 20"? But looking through old emails, that has a Rodime Model 552 drive inside with a mysterious 26 pin interface, not an ST-506. >Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:26:08 -0800 >From: "Billy Pettit" >I'm not familiar with the Outbound Laptop. What was the model number? Outbound was a company. So they were producing non-Apple Macintoshes by scavenging Apple ROMs from Apple machines. The model number in this case is the Laptop Model 125. A very cool machine with four SIMM sockets devoted to a "silicon disk"--that is a dedicated RAM Disk. You could install up to 16MB in there--at least. I have not tried 16 MB SIMMs yet. The keyboard was detachable and had an IR interface. It also had a trackbar ("isopoint") at the bottom of the keyboard. A ?-bus (not PS2, not ADB that other one used on PCs (required an ISA card) with a round connector) mouse could be plugged into the keyboard if one preferred a mouse. Additionally, using the optional SCSI adapter, the Laptop could be "docked" as an accessible SCSI device on any Macintosh with a SCSI interface. >I do know that I was supporting Apple at Quantum in early 1994 and qualified >an IDE 2.5 inch drive for their laptops. The Laptop 125 was around as early as February 1990. I'm not certain exactly when it was first released. It pred-dates the Powerbooks. So, e.g. the cool SCSI docking feature was available on an Outbound, long before it was a feature on the PowerBooks. Jeff Walther From roosmcd at dds.nl Fri Jan 5 14:34:44 2007 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd at dds.nl) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 21:34:44 +0100 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion Message-ID: <20070105213444.ppd9lv4kocbowowk@webmail.dds.nl> > From: "William Donzelli" > Subject: Re: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion > >> So noone has one of the Intergraph workstations? A pity. They were a >> dominant player, you'd have expected some of the machines to survive! > > > There are quite a few in Rhode Island at both computer groups. Even an > Intergraph VAX, with weird disk controllers made to search for polygon > data in hardware. > I still have a 2020 and a 125 from a lot I traded some time ago . These were used as GIS systems by the government. Never got the 125 to work because of some bug in the installation procedure. The steel-encased Intergraph 21" color monitor was also very nice.... I also have a lot of documentation, cd-roms, tapes and floppies. If anyone is interested, I have Intergraph memory for sale for 2000 machines, sets of 4x4MB special Intergraph 30-pin simms; my machines already is at the 64MB max. I've tried a long time to sell those, so far no luck, so I don't think many people have Intergraph workstations :) . greetings, Michiel From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 14:45:11 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:45:11 -0800 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay In-Reply-To: <013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org> <013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90701051245w133d45abxd6775fc00c19438d@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/06, Jay West wrote: > J Blaser wrote.... > >I don't know anything about HP minis, so I don't know what to look for, but > >for those on the list that have HPs and might be interested... > > > > The main unit: item # 320060663740 > > The FP unit: item # 320060663048 > > > > No bids yet. > And hopefully there won't be... unless you want parts - cause it's got > issues. > And the winner is... Warren. # 320067174880 # 320067174671 Looks like it was fairly well loaded with a complete set of memory cards and I/O cards. Hard to tell from the picture but it looks like it might even have the cable that connects the front panel to the two cards in the FPP box. I'm not sure if the FPP box will power up completely without the power in/out cable between the two boxes. I have never found a currently available connector shell part that will exactly mate with those 9-pin power supply connectors on the back. Maybe it doesn't matter if you power the boxes up in the right order. It's been a while since I bothered connecting the FPP box to my 2117F. -Glen From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 15:18:29 2007 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:18:29 +0000 Subject: Stuff to give away UK Message-ID: <26c11a640701051318p24484170qe802669bec2a1015@mail.gmail.com> I have some more stuff to get rid of now. There are: 3 Vaxstations Some Amstrad CPC's Manuals I don't have equipment for : Tektronix 475 oscilloscope calibration and diagram supplement la120 letter printer programmer ref guide tektronix 475 oscilloscope service manual beckmen industrial circuitmate 9020 osilloscope operaters manual x3 cosser instruments model 3122 oscilloscope operating manual cosser instruments model 3100 oscilloscope operating manual cosser instruments model 3102 oscilloscope operating manual some vt100's with no keyboards Lots of sparcstation IPC's Apart from the manuals anything not picked up will have to be skipped. Stuff not so free. I would like some cash for, anything sensible will be accepted. Would also accept storeage of other items for a year or two ;) vax 4000/500 with external 10x external drives (all with scsi->dssi convertors) (in half rack) vax 4000/705A with external 5x dssi drives. (In standard case) Dual head octane with 1gb memory. vaxstation 4000/90. The stuff is located in Soho at the moment. It could move to Kent if not picked up soon. Thanks Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 15:23:42 2007 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:23:42 +0000 Subject: Stuff to give away UK In-Reply-To: <26c11a640701051318p24484170qe802669bec2a1015@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640701051318p24484170qe802669bec2a1015@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640701051323qe92a953v42e33deec83fcc1f@mail.gmail.com> Sorry forgot also 2 monitors an SGI 20d11. In good condition great picture. DEC 19" very yellowed but picture fine. Dan From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jan 5 16:12:32 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:12:32 -0800 Subject: Arix (was Rational) Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D0366AF@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Al Kossow wrote: Did you mean Arete? We have one, and it ran a version of Unix called Arix. ------------------------------ Billy wrote: My memory is that the first few times I visited them, the company name was Arix. That was changed to Ar?te after some of the notoriety caught up with them. I'd love to meet somebody who worked at the location on Zanker road. There were things happening there that are unique in the industry. Does anybody on this list remember the room painted black? Billy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 5 13:20:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 19:20:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Missing Bits In-Reply-To: <459DAF65.3080608@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jan 5, 7 01:52:37 am Message-ID: > > I carry my driving licence with me, in case anyone asks me my name. I > have genuinely been asked my name, and just gone blank. I cannot > remember names, sometimes not even my own. I'm the same. I've been known to introduce people as '%person' (pronounced the obvious way). Gets some very odd looks. And I once had to stop and think when asked when my birthday was. On the other hand, I can remember details of machinery with no trouble at all. I can take something apart, make only minimal notes (say the order of wires on a terminal block) and have no trouble at all putting it back together. And I think the functions and pinouts of chips I grew up with are in ROM in my brain now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 5 13:12:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 19:12:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: D-shell connector age? In-Reply-To: <20070105013630.LHXG8030.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Jan 4, 7 08:36:57 pm Message-ID: > Very common here also (chassis live) till mid 1990's then changed to > isolation via the flyback transformer, partial hot chassis till Interesting. There were sets over here (made by a company called Salora, I think) that had what was commanly known as the IPSALO circuit. That was an acronym for 'Integrated Power Supply and Line Output' (Line Output being what we call the Horizontal Output stage). IIRC, the horizontal yoke was on the live side of the power supply, the vertical yoke (and in fact the entire vertical deflection circuit) was on the isolated side. Hmmm.. > flyback transformer. Then SMPS for isolation. Some do double > isolation via SMPS then flyback transformer. Never seen that, > > Still, certain area of chassis (just a one board now) even on SMPS is > hot. Sure. > > Isolation transformer is a MUST when servicing any even brand new > set. No buts or ifs. And, indeed, for working on any SMPSU (which are common in classic computers, and therefore on-topic). I think I've mentioend the origianl Tandy Model 1 monitor before, but it's worth doing so again. it was based (as is well-known) on an RCA protable TV, the tuner and IF boards were removed and the latter replaced by a composite video input board. That TV was live chassis. US versions have a on opto-isolater on the video input board (that's the reason for the 5V power output on the model 1's video DIN socket, to power the input side of the opto-isolator circuit), every thing else inide the monitor is live!. European models have a step-down _isolating_ transformer inside the case (since the TV chassis was designed for 115V mains input only), the video input board is then little more than a transistor buffer stage. Of course with that version almost all the circuitry inside the monitor is isolated from the power line. But be _very_ careful if you work on the US version! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 5 13:15:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 19:15:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ebay: HP 82045A Thermal Paper In-Reply-To: <42A8ECF5282C8543B245A0A1828E76AF14F272@EXRNJMB08.nam.nsroot.net> from "Tucker, Billy D [PVTC]" at Jan 4, 7 05:16:28 pm Message-ID: > > I am interersted in buying some thermal paper for a Hewlett Packard > printer. Can you give me any help? My email at home is btu68 at aol.com. What model of HP printer, and is there anything special about the paper (sproket holes, for example{ ? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 5 13:16:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 19:16:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics In-Reply-To: <200701050145.l051j775090197@keith.ezwind.net> from "Bob Bradlee" at Jan 4, 7 08:45:01 pm Message-ID: > Because in the good old days it was Federal law. The FTC or what ever they were called then > required manufacturers to provide schematics for all electronic devices marketed int the US. Had to > provide spare parts for something like 7 years too.... The lawyers changed all that years ago. How did HP get away with not releasing schematics for the 9100, then? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 5 16:21:14 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:21:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: House cleaning! Everything must go! In-Reply-To: <459DCDF6.4000200@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jan 4, 7 08:03:02 pm Message-ID: > - HP Laserjet II. Non-working, but probably easy to fix (has trouble > pulling paper out of the tray, otherwise works fine last time I tried > it). Needs new toner cartridge. It is normally an easy repair. You need to replace the (D-shapped) pickup roller. Eitehr the complete pickup shaft assembly, or if you want to save money and do a little more work, just the roller (the latter is what I always do). It's a common problem on SX printers. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 5 16:36:41 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 16:36:41 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1e1fc3e90701051245w133d45abxd6775fc00c19438d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <012401c73119$fb00de30$6500a8c0@BILLING> J Blaser wrote.... >> >I don't know anything about HP minis,... >> > The main unit: item # 320060663740 >> > The FP unit: item # 320060663048 >> > No bids yet. To which I replied.... >> And hopefully there won't be... unless you want parts - cause it's got >> issues. And Glen wrote... > And the winner is... Warren. # 320067174880 # 320067174671 Hey, not the same machine I was referencing ;) The one Glen mentions looked pretty complete. > Looks like it was fairly well loaded with a complete set of memory > cards and I/O cards. I'd yank all those 64K cards and just run with one 256kw board, keeping the 2nd 256kw board for spare. All those "little" 64k boards just suck up power and don't give you much extra memory. I generally don't run things that would require more than a pittance of ram anyways.... so others here will certainly disagree with me on this point. I just recognized the "unknown" board at the top in slot 25, it's a PSI (Programmable Serial Interface) board (built on a 5180-1953). I think that's a 3rd party board. I would like more info on these boards if anyone has it. Sketchy info follows that may only be half-accurate: There are four Z80's? on board as I recall, and 3 proms to dump your z80 code in to. Thus, you can program this board to do all kinds of fun interesting things - IF you have the specifications as to what your code needs to do in Z80 to talk to the backplane or other chips on board. In the given configuration, it was used to control 4 serial ports I think, but may have been just 2 terminals (the ones I got were hooked up to a very odd very large graphics terminal that required 2 serial ports each). I still have a couple of these boards, the correct cables, and the back panel db25 mounting bracket. I have a manual for them, but it is the manual for the PSI implementation of the board and thus no details on coding your own Z80 stuff on it. If anyone has THOSE specs I'd love a copy. The other "unknown" board in slot 12, I have no clue, but I'd love to see a picture of it, from the ebay picture of it what I can see is intriguing. Warren... I'll gladly trade some of my HP boards in exchange for one or two of the microcircuit boards in there ;) > I'm not sure if the FPP box will power up completely without the power > in/out cable between the two boxes. I have never found a currently > available connector shell part that will exactly mate with those 9-pin > power supply connectors on the back. Maybe it doesn't matter if you > power the boxes up in the right order. It's been a while since I > bothered connecting the FPP box to my 2117F. You know, that's a good question. Can anyone answer that? Bob S. perhaps? My hunch given past experience is that the power in/out cable isn't required. I don't know though. I have looked for those 9 pin power supply connectors too, to no avail :( I'd love to find some of the new crimp pins at least!! AMP doesn't seem to remember making them. I would hazard a guess that the FPP box would need to be powered up before the cpu ;) Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 5 16:39:19 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 16:39:19 -0600 Subject: Missing Bits References: Message-ID: <013801c7311a$57049fa0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Tony wrote.... > And I once had to stop and think when asked when my birthday was. > > On the other hand, I can remember details of machinery with no trouble at > all. I believe that's what my wife (what's her name again?) refers to in a rather displeased manner as "selective memory" ;) Jay West From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 16:43:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 15:43:47 -0700 Subject: Missing Bits In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 Jan 2007 16:39:19 -0600. <013801c7311a$57049fa0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <013801c7311a$57049fa0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > I believe that's what my wife (what's her name again?) refers to in a rather > displeased manner as "selective memory" ;) All human memory is selective. Its a feature, not a bug :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 5 17:14:01 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:14:01 -0500 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200701052314.l05NE6CU054428@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 19:16:41 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell wrote: >> Because in the good old days it was Federal law. The FTC or what ever they were called then >> required manufacturers to provide schematics for all electronic devices marketed int the US. Had to >> provide spare parts for something like 7 years too.... The lawyers changed all that years ago. >How did HP get away with not releasing schematics for the 9100, then? >-tony Good question, A deal was made with the TV / Radio industry where SamsPhotofact became the central clearing house. Even the HiFi and C/B radio industry feed the Sams Printing system with fresh fodder each month. Early Computers were exempt right from the start, because they were for the most part each unique. Then on Sept 12 1958, Jack Kilby successful demonstrated that first simple microchip in the laboratory and all the rules began to change, slowly at first. Then over the last 50 years, many concept have shifted. Today information has a resale value, that is not associated with extrortion or blackmail. Most largest lawfirms have Intellectual property departments, with enforcement quotas to meet. I have found that If I needed one bad enough I could purchase all the information I needed to fix something I wanted fixed. A few have required NDA's but in most cases a set of drawings were made for each system, as built, or were on file somewhere, Sometimes it was free, you just had to ask at time of order so a second set could be generated at system build time. Got to run ... no time to fix spelling .... Bob From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 17:34:25 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 15:34:25 -0800 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay In-Reply-To: <012401c73119$fb00de30$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org> <013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1e1fc3e90701051245w133d45abxd6775fc00c19438d@mail.gmail.com> <012401c73119$fb00de30$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90701051534l7df2c326m314ce92776df6e02@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/07, Jay West wrote: > I'd yank all those 64K cards and just run with one 256kw board, keeping the > 2nd 256kw board for spare. All those "little" 64k boards just suck up power > and don't give you much extra memory. I generally don't run things that > would require more than a pittance of ram anyways.... so others here will > certainly disagree with me on this point. > Extra RAM is always good for making the self-test count higher on the blinkenlights. :-) > I just recognized the "unknown" board at the top in slot 25, it's a PSI > (Programmable Serial Interface) board (built on a 5180-1953). I think that's > a 3rd party board. I would like more info on these boards if anyone has it. > Sketchy info follows that may only be half-accurate: There are four Z80's? > on board as I recall, and 3 proms to dump your z80 code in to. That sounded similar to what I remembered about the 12792 8-Channel Mux, but I just looked at the manual and it has a single Z80, DMA, CTC, 4 SIO/2s, and 16K of DRAM. I wonder if there is anything interesting you could do with those with your own firmware. > Warren... I'll gladly trade some of my HP boards in exchange for one or two > of the microcircuit boards in there ;) > I have a few 12566 boards and some relay boards, forget their number. > I have looked for those 9 pin power supply connectors > too, to no avail :( I'd love to find some of the new crimp pins at least!! > AMP doesn't seem to remember making them. I'd like to make a real plug for the battery backup 820ohm thermistor bypass. I just have a resistor with its legs folded over wedged into the connector for now. -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 17:46:01 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 16:46:01 -0700 Subject: questions about Sphere-1 micro? email me. Message-ID: The Sphere-1 micro, the first personal computer, was created and built here in Utah. The creator, Mike Wise, died from complications of diabetes in December of 2004. However, one of his long-time business associates Arnold Grundvig of A-Systems is still around. I talked with Arnold on the phone and he says that Mike regaled him with many stories over the years about the Sphere and so-on. I was interested in interviewing Mike for a short peice about that early piece of Utah computing history. Arnold has agreed to be interviewed for such a purpose instead. So if any of you have questions about the Sphere or that period of microcomputing history, please email them to me off-list and I will collect them together with my own questions, conduct an interview and post the transcript. If any of you know any "old timers" that are getting on in years, it might be a good idea to conduct a recorded interview (don't rely on notes! record it!) to capture some of the "oral history" that will be lost when they pass on. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 5 18:00:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:00:31 -0600 Subject: not quite on topic but, classic analogue satellite tv decoding boxes In-Reply-To: <1853.192.168.0.4.1168026421.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1853.192.168.0.4.1168026421.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <459EE69F.1000303@yahoo.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > Hello folks, > > I've got a pair of old UK SKY TV boxen (1997 era) that are pretty useless > as analogue SKY TV was switched off in 2001; can the hardware be used for > anything else or is it pretty much paperweight material? Paperweight, I would have thought - I've never heard of them being able to do anything 'clever' (unlike, say, some of Acorn's set top boxes which do resemble a computer closely enough to fire up a web browser on, talk to a few very specific hardware add-ons etc.). I doubt there's even many useful components that can be salvaged as it'll likely all be surface mount stuff and big shiny screened silver boxes inside. cheers Jules From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jan 5 19:11:05 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:11:05 -0300 Subject: House cleaning! Everything must go! References: Message-ID: <059001c7312f$fa8ff1f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > It is normally an easy repair. You need to replace the (D-shapped) pickup > roller. Eitehr the complete pickup shaft assembly, or if you want to save > money and do a little more work, just the roller (the latter is what I > always do). It's a common problem on SX printers. Tony, do you have an EASY source for these rollers? I have 3 or 4 SX printers that I'd love to donate to some charity, but all have the same problem. All of them were rebuilt by me (I have some articles written on repairfaq.org about the HP2/3 and HP4/5) but these rollers are impossible to be found in Brazil. Most american suppliers - dunno why - do not ship to Brazil. :o( From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jan 5 18:17:08 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 16:17:08 -0800 Subject: Wire Rope ROMs (Was: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available) References: Message-ID: <459EEA84.C6CD3225@cs.ubc.ca> Hi Rick, sounds like we have been working along similar lines. I have a Wang 520 in bits: the logic/power supply base, display, keyboard, and (of course) the core rope ROM. Missing the case, cassette drive and printer, but it does work when the remaining bits are connected together. Initially I was just interested in the novelty/exercise of reading the core-rope ROM, but then figured might as well do a simulator to check the validity of the retrieved contents. More comments below: Rick Bensene wrote: > Speaking of Wang Calculator ROM's, I've recently built a fixture that > I'm successfully able to read Wang 700-series ROMs with. It's > unfortunately a non-automatic system...toggle switches and TIL-311 HEX > displays (can automate it later), and am in the (slow) process of > dumping a known good Wang 720C ROM. The ROM strobe signal timing is > very tight on the 700-series ROM...off even a little bit on the timing > (pulse width), and the readout gets real inconsistent. > > Still some tinkering to do. Still, I'm very sure that the fixture to > read the ROMs is working perfectly. All ROM locations return consistent > results, and other than the emulator running into all zero ROM content > (there are quite a few "unused" locations in the ROM), all of the > instructions decoded thus far are "valid" in terms of the allowed values > of the various microcode fields. To read the core rope I set up some TTL to produce the read-pulse-sequences for the core rope, interfaced to and under the control of a SWTPC 6800. The core rope contents gets dumped into the 6800 RAM and then uploaded to my main machine over serial line. Most of the 2048 locations read a consistent value, while 3 to 6 locations are flaky in a couple of bits. I did multiple dumps and tried all sorts of things to get them consistent: varying the read-pulse voltage, adjusting the read-pulse drive wires, randomising the read address sequence... nothing would get rid of those few errors. The read-pulse timing is derived from an integrated crystal oscillator unit and seemed to measure well in comparison to the original but I should probably try something with some variability. It would be interesting to see the pulsing circuit you came up with for comparison. One cute thing, if you haven't run across it already, is that the last locations contain test patterns: 07FC: 010101010101.. (hex 55555555..) 07FD: 101010101010.. (hex AAAAAAAA..) 07FE: 111111111111.. 07FF: .. (don't remember whether it could be an interrupt vector or might be a checksum) > Also trying to write a microcode execution engine in Perl to run the > code, but there are lots of interesting timing considerations that > require deep digging into the schematics (which is something that I have > little patience for...basically, I'm not very good at it) in terms of > the timing of all of the register transfers in the machine. On the > surface, it looks simple, just a basic 10-phase non-overlapping clock > (shift register), but there's a lot of combinatorial logic that derives > a lot of weird timing from the basic clock phases. > So far, my attempts to execute the code I've extracted so far lead to > execution of illegal instructions (all zero ROM locations), or infinte > loops, and the code execution doesn't seem to make much sense. There > are also some microcode instructions that aren't documented, and having > to dig through schematics to figure out what they do. On a similar note, when I execute the ROM contents in the simulation it does manage to initially execute a subroutine loop which looks like it clears a main register, but after returning from that it starts jumping around the ROM address space in a bizarre sequence. (It was almost 2 years ago that I was last working on it so I'm a little hazy on details.) This is one of the few occasions I wish I had a logic analyser to get a trace from the actual unit. > Wang is also > famous for purposefully putting errors into published schematics to > throw off competitors who would use such schematics to reverse-engineer > how the machines work. So, some of my problem could be that the > schematics are not necessarily an accurate representation of the actual > logic. Great.. and I thought I was lucky when the manuf. schematics turned up on the web so I wouldn't have to do a full board-level RE! So it may be the latter is still necessary. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 5 18:33:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 00:33:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: House cleaning! Everything must go! In-Reply-To: <059001c7312f$fa8ff1f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at Jan 5, 7 10:11:05 pm Message-ID: > > > It is normally an easy repair. You need to replace the (D-shapped) pickup > > roller. Eitehr the complete pickup shaft assembly, or if you want to save > > money and do a little more work, just the roller (the latter is what I > > always do). It's a common problem on SX printers. > > Tony, do you have an EASY source for these rollers? I have 3 or 4 SX I've always bought them (and other Cannon engine parts) from The PrinterWorks (http://www.printerworks.com). They ship to England, I have no idea if they ship to Brazil. Oh yes, if you change the roller, change the 'separation pad' (the little cork-looking pad that holds the paper against the pickup roller) too. -tony From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Jan 5 14:13:28 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:13:28 +0000 Subject: House cleaning! Everything must go! In-Reply-To: References: <459DCDF6.4000200@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jan 4, 7 08:03:02 pm Message-ID: <20070106011258.VSJP8030.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:21:14 +0000 (GMT) > Subject: Re: House cleaning! Everything must go! > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > - HP Laserjet II. Non-working, but probably easy to fix (has trouble > > pulling paper out of the tray, otherwise works fine last time I tried > > it). Needs new toner cartridge. > > > It is normally an easy repair. You need to replace the (D-shapped) pickup > roller. Eitehr the complete pickup shaft assembly, or if you want to save > money and do a little more work, just the roller (the latter is what I > always do). It's a common problem on SX printers. > > -tony Take care, look at the solid part of that is part of the paper pickup system, some have metal cover to help paper to slide/guide thru correctly from the paper pile where pick up roller is (D shape). I have a printer that had this piece missing and had a intermittent pickup. Replacing whole tray fixed this. this is on samsung printer btw. Cheers, Wizard From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jan 5 19:32:12 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:32:12 -0500 Subject: govliq messages In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 05 Jan 2007 10:12:33 MST." Message-ID: <200701060132.l061WCAW022737@mwave.heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: >Govliquidation.com doesn't exactly have the best descriptions, ... >Does anyone find this useful? I do. I consider it a benefit :-) -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jan 5 19:35:40 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:35:40 -0500 Subject: Outbound Laptop; Was: Mac OS vintage In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 05 Jan 2007 13:35:39 CST." Message-ID: <200701060135.l061ZerJ023118@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jeff Walther wrote: > >There may have been Apple machines with ST-506s but unless my memory >is much worse than I hope, there was never a Macintosh with an >ST-506. Unless you're thinking of the "Macintosh Hard Disk 20"? >But looking through old emails, that has a Rodime Model 552 drive >inside with a mysterious 26 pin interface, not an ST-506. I thinking of the Hyperdrive. Only relevant in the early days, say 1985-1987, but helpful at that time. There were several models, all with st-506 drives. -brad From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Jan 5 19:40:09 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:40:09 -0500 Subject: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available. References: , <4597AA13.217.4A75473@cclist.sydex.com>, <45982249.7030506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4597C28E.25598.506F302@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000701c73133$9b4238d0$0100a8c0@screamer> I've just found an interesting vintage system. The machine is an Edax 9100 / 70. It contains a PDP 11/23 with MMU and FPP chips installed running RT 11 V4, circa 1980. The Edax 9100 is a rather odd beast. Its a system that attached to a scanning electron microscope and used a cryogenic silicon sensor to measure the spectra of emissions from the microscopes target and calculated the elemental composition of the sample. This system consists of three main sections. Each section connects with fairly long sets of cables, so each section is designed to be seperated, built onto or into an existing scanning electron microscope. Main chassis: There is the main chassis, a very mice short roll-around 19-inch rack with a formica top. This holds the 11/23 minicomputer in a custom backplane. There are a number of Q-bus slots, and a large section of custom backplane holding some fancy custom ADC modules and a video display and memory subsystem. The Q-bus section holds the following boards M8186 KDF11 (revision unknown, probably an early one) M8044 DE (memory) M8028 (no idea) A Sigma Floppy Disk Controller (RX02 emulation? boots as DY:) A Dialog ST-506 disk controller M8016 YB (don't know this one either, I used to drive UNIBUS 11's) A DEC 4 SLU board, no M# on the handles. There is a Shugart 8-inch FDD, complete with the original shipping cardboard to protect the heads. There is a ST-506 drive in the chassis somewhere, I don't know the capacity, or if this is a 8 or 5.25 inch drive. There are a number of power supplies for the electronics, as well as a high voltage supply for the special silicon sensor that was attached to the SEM. I don't have the sensor, its still being used on the SEM with a newer EDAX controller box. Keyboard / Console unit: A very retro-looking, nice keyboard with extra function keys, and a row of alphanumeric LED display modules for programmable legends over the function keys. All apparently controlled by standard RS-232 links to the 11/23. The displays look like old Litronix DL-1414 modules. According to the documentation, the standard keyboard section is used to boot the RT-11 O/S. The EDAX application was driven by using the special function keys and programmable key legends on the LED displays. One function key dumps you back to the RT-11SJ prompt. Video Display unit: Uses a portrait-format CRT in a (then) futuristic tilt-swivel metal chassis. This interfaces to the special video display system in the main chassis. This monitor would be placed next to the normal display graphics of the scanning electron microscope and would display the spectra of the sample being tested along with text displays of the settings, elemental compositions, etc. This same display is also used to talk to the PDP/11, I'm thinking that the UART in the display section (I have full schematics) is used to emulate a dumb terminal with the ASCII keyboard section on the Keyboard / Console unit. Software: This thing ran RT-11 SJ V4, and uses a modified version of DEC's basic. Users could write programs in BASIC and CALL functions that ran all the analog front end and display systems. Custom analysis programs could be written and saved to disk. A sort of batch mode would run factory and user written programs to study and test samples. There is whatever is on the disk, and the original factory 8-inch floppys. There is even the original Dialog DSD ST-506 disk controller utility and diagnostic disk with the Dialog D7026A formatting program. Condition: This thing has been removed from service, and has been sitting in the room next to a working electron microscope in a top notch analysis lab since its been delivered from the factory in 1980 or thereabouts. Its never been moved, or stored in a non climate controlled space. The condition is excellent. There are full service schematics and some documentation of the software (like all the calls to run the front end and display stuff). The I/O addresses for the custom hardware appear to be well documented. The roll-around rack is quite short, maybe just under 3 feet high. With the display and keyboard sections the whole thing is a bit smaller than an Apollo DN660, but very similar in general layout. I do not have the (Hubble twist lock) power cable, and I've not tried to powe the thing up. Availability: This thing is in Massachusettes. Right now this thing is sitting in my office at work with scrap paperwork. There is a paperwork process I need to go through to take it out of the building, but I suspect that the disposal fees the company would have to pay are such that they would be very happy for me to remove this thing for them (free to me). Moving the thing (during the winter) will be a small pain however. It will fit into the back of a Jeep Wrangler with the back seat removed, so I can get this thing home but I cannot place it into heated storage. I can store it in my garage, but I'll have to rodent proof the thing (but it will be stored next to my Lotus). The little roll-around rack is very nice, so I have to admit I might part this thing out. So if someone really wants the Q-bus boards and the floppy and hard disks out of it, lets talk. Better still, if someone wants a little RT-11 box, and does not care if the DEC logo is nowhere to be found, this might be a fun and funky little box to hack around on. Its really got killer retro looks, the styling of the thing is really something (photos are possible). The keyboard / console section appears to have a standard serial interface, and its a very cool keyboard, nice feel, very vintage. That could be easily hacked onto whatever vintage machine you wish. As for the CRT display, given that its got a portrait oriented tube, probably uses some totally strange video format that is nearly useless without the Edax display hardware. Oh yes, there is a high voltage inhibit switch, so you can switch off the 1,000 volt bias supply to the sensor head if your just using the computer. A nice service feature thats essential if someone wants to keep this thing intact and use it as a conventional 11/23 box (but full the fuse for the HV section, just in case someone turns that switch back on, you don't want 1 kV hanging off the end of a disconnected cable) Trade offers are welcome, I'd love to have either a working printing terminal (like a LA34) or just a printer that can take green bar paper. Serial or parallel interface will do. Oh yes, if chopped up, parts can be shipped. If you want the whole thing you need to come and pick it up in MA. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 19:48:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:48:35 -0700 Subject: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available. In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:40:09 -0500. <000701c73133$9b4238d0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: It sounds sweet! I'd love to see some pictures! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 19:49:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:49:12 -0700 Subject: govliq messages In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:32:12 -0500. <200701060132.l061WCAW022737@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: OK, so people generally seem pleased with me posting the links. Now for the big question... Has anyone purchased any of the lots that I've posted? :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Jan 5 19:58:11 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:58:11 -0500 Subject: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459B4AA3.DC016D9B@cs.ubc.ca> <459AE50C.13780.B7C77E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002701c73136$1f980540$0100a8c0@screamer> The alternatives were too heavy. DSKY's (AGC 'terminals') in the LEM drove the weight equations. Numitrons might have been light enough, but probably would not survive the vibration stresses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 2:04 AM Subject: Re: back to the AGC, was Re: TTL 7400's Available > On 2 Jan 2007 at 22:18, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Yes, I'm finding those references as well. Although it seems quite early >> for >> electroluminescent displays too, don't know of anything else that was >> using >> them at that time, esp. in 7-seg form. > > I recall a Popular Science (IIRC) article of around that same time > gushing about how EL was going to revolutionize the world and one of > the applications shown was a large 7 segment display. > > Work with EL generated quite a bit of interest back in the 60's, > including light amplification for radiography (make a sandwich of > dots of EL cells with CdS photoresistors and apply an AC voltage. > The dark cells will tend to stay dark, while those that fluoresce > under bombardment will form a feedback loop.) Reminds me of making a > code practice oscillator by sandwiching a carbon mic with an > earphone. I don't know if the technology ever made it to prime time. > > So that it used EL doesn't surprise me. The only other alternatives > (incandescent, plasma, mechanical) were probably too power-hungry > and/or fragile. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Jan 5 20:28:08 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:28:08 -0500 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING><1e1fc3e90701051245w133d45abxd6775fc00c19438d@mail.gmail.com> <012401c73119$fb00de30$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <006001c7313a$4eee6920$0100a8c0@screamer> I've got a working 2117F, runs weekly, more or less. Great machine. Ok, yes, it will power up without the FP box attached, but it will fail the FPU self-test when the special op-code is run via 'instruction step'. All F-series machines were ~supposed~ to use fault control memory, I think this machine is setup that way. Don't pull the small boards until this is understood. Memory misconfigurations and missing backup battery bypass plugs are 99% of the problems people have with these machines. It will fail to pass power on self test with misconfigured memory. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:36 PM Subject: Re: HP HP-2117F on ebay >J Blaser wrote.... >>> >I don't know anything about HP minis,... >>> > The main unit: item # 320060663740 >>> > The FP unit: item # 320060663048 >>> > No bids yet. > > To which I replied.... >>> And hopefully there won't be... unless you want parts - cause it's got >>> issues. > > And Glen wrote... >> And the winner is... Warren. # 320067174880 # 320067174671 > Hey, not the same machine I was referencing ;) The one Glen mentions > looked pretty complete. > >> Looks like it was fairly well loaded with a complete set of memory >> cards and I/O cards. > I'd yank all those 64K cards and just run with one 256kw board, keeping > the 2nd 256kw board for spare. All those "little" 64k boards just suck up > power and don't give you much extra memory. I generally don't run things > that would require more than a pittance of ram anyways.... so others here > will certainly disagree with me on this point. > > I just recognized the "unknown" board at the top in slot 25, it's a PSI > (Programmable Serial Interface) board (built on a 5180-1953). I think > that's a 3rd party board. I would like more info on these boards if anyone > has it. Sketchy info follows that may only be half-accurate: There are > four Z80's? on board as I recall, and 3 proms to dump your z80 code in to. > Thus, you can program this board to do all kinds of fun interesting > things - IF you have the specifications as to what your code needs to do > in Z80 to talk to the backplane or other chips on board. In the given > configuration, it was used to control 4 serial ports I think, but may have > been just 2 terminals (the ones I got were hooked up to a very odd very > large graphics terminal that required 2 serial ports each). I still have a > couple of these boards, the correct cables, and the back panel db25 > mounting bracket. I have a manual for them, but it is the manual for the > PSI implementation of the board and thus no details on coding your own Z80 > stuff on it. If anyone has THOSE specs I'd love a copy. > > The other "unknown" board in slot 12, I have no clue, but I'd love to see > a picture of it, from the ebay picture of it what I can see is intriguing. > > Warren... I'll gladly trade some of my HP boards in exchange for one or > two of the microcircuit boards in there ;) > >> I'm not sure if the FPP box will power up completely without the power >> in/out cable between the two boxes. I have never found a currently >> available connector shell part that will exactly mate with those 9-pin >> power supply connectors on the back. Maybe it doesn't matter if you >> power the boxes up in the right order. It's been a while since I >> bothered connecting the FPP box to my 2117F. > You know, that's a good question. Can anyone answer that? Bob S. perhaps? > My hunch given past experience is that the power in/out cable isn't > required. I don't know though. I have looked for those 9 pin power supply > connectors too, to no avail :( I'd love to find some of the new crimp pins > at least!! AMP doesn't seem to remember making them. I would hazard a > guess that the FPP box would need to be powered up before the cpu ;) > > Jay West > > From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Jan 5 20:38:42 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:38:42 -0500 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING><1e1fc3e90701051245w133d45abxd6775fc00c19438d@mail.gmail.com><012401c73119$fb00de30$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1e1fc3e90701051534l7df2c326m314ce92776df6e02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006401c7313b$c8b42870$0100a8c0@screamer> Rather than just 'plug' a resistor into the back of the PSU, I like to get the regular cable to the battery backup box, and use that. Its a common cable, I may have spares. I pull the lead acid cells out of the battery boxes, and leave the stock thermistor in place. The advantage is that with the battery box in place (or even a blank rear plate) the airflow through the I/O cage is much better than when the back plate is missing. The same thing is true for the blank plate over the memory card cage. Early memory controllers will run much hotter without this plate in place. HP put these parts there for a reason it seems. My I/O slots are packed, so I try to keep them happy. Having lots of DMS memory can be a real advantage. I've got software that gives you up to 32 separate address spaces, so you can jump between totally incompatible programs on a single machine. This allows an IPL program to run HP Basic, and then return control back to the original IPL code, etc. Swapping the system map around is great fun! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 6:34 PM Subject: Re: HP HP-2117F on ebay > On 1/5/07, Jay West wrote: >> I'd yank all those 64K cards and just run with one 256kw board, keeping >> the >> 2nd 256kw board for spare. All those "little" 64k boards just suck up >> power >> and don't give you much extra memory. I generally don't run things that >> would require more than a pittance of ram anyways.... so others here will >> certainly disagree with me on this point. >> > > Extra RAM is always good for making the self-test count higher on the > blinkenlights. :-) > >> I just recognized the "unknown" board at the top in slot 25, it's a PSI >> (Programmable Serial Interface) board (built on a 5180-1953). I think >> that's >> a 3rd party board. I would like more info on these boards if anyone has >> it. >> Sketchy info follows that may only be half-accurate: There are four >> Z80's? >> on board as I recall, and 3 proms to dump your z80 code in to. > > That sounded similar to what I remembered about the 12792 8-Channel > Mux, but I just looked at the manual and it has a single Z80, DMA, > CTC, 4 SIO/2s, and 16K of DRAM. I wonder if there is anything > interesting you could do with those with your own firmware. > >> Warren... I'll gladly trade some of my HP boards in exchange for one or >> two >> of the microcircuit boards in there ;) >> > > I have a few 12566 boards and some relay boards, forget their number. > >> I have looked for those 9 pin power supply connectors >> too, to no avail :( I'd love to find some of the new crimp pins at >> least!! >> AMP doesn't seem to remember making them. > > I'd like to make a real plug for the battery backup 820ohm thermistor > bypass. I just have a resistor with its legs folded over wedged into > the connector for now. > > -Glen > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 20:43:59 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 19:43:59 -0700 Subject: Onyx/Challenge skins wanted Message-ID: My two new Onyx machines are almost naked! One has a top, side and front skin. The other has a top skin only. So, I am looking for skins for the box so that I can make them pretty. The Challenge/L machines use the same enclosure, so the skins from those can be used. Can anyone help me out? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 5 20:48:51 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 18:48:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: the market is about to drop out on the Cat Message-ID: <20070106024851.77817.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> there's currently 10 on eBay right now. 9 of which are from the previous seller (the one that banged out at $1,926). Is the guy dopey? How could he reasonably expect to get that money for each when he dumps them all on the market at once??? I would think it would make the most sense to spread them out. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 5 20:52:19 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 18:52:19 -0800 Subject: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:48 PM -0700 1/5/07, Richard wrote: >It sounds sweet! I'd love to see some pictures! I'll second that (both parts)! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 20:54:33 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:54:33 -0500 Subject: House cleaning! Everything must go! In-Reply-To: References: <059001c7312f$fa8ff1f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 1/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > It is normally an easy repair. You need to replace the (D-shapped) pickup > > > roller. Eitehr the complete pickup shaft assembly, or if you want to save > > > money and do a little more work, just the roller (the latter is what I > > > always do). It's a common problem on SX printers. > > > > Tony, do you have an EASY source for these rollers? I have 3 or 4 SX > > I've always bought them (and other Cannon engine parts) from The > PrinterWorks (http://www.printerworks.com). They ship to England, I have > no idea if they ship to Brazil. I have bought these parts from these guys and recall paying about $7 or $8 USD for the roller and a similar amount for the separation pad - about $35-$40 in parts for my $15 Uni-surplus 2-tray Postscript-upgraded LJ-IIISi. This was a few years ago, so the prices may have drifted a bit. Getting the roller bar out is a little bit of work (lots of case screws to drop, etc), but once you are that far, taking the roller bar apart to change only the D-shaped pickup roller isn't difficult. I'd rather pay $8 for the rubber bit than several times that for the entire roller assembly, especially since it's the only part of the assembly that has age/wear issues. > Oh yes, if you change the roller, change the 'separation pad' (the little > cork-looking pad that holds the paper against the pickup roller) too. Absolutely. Well worth it once you have the printer apart. It's easy to change the pad and a new one will help problems of a partial feed of the second-to-top sheet that will cause a jam on the next paper pick cycle. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 21:02:32 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:02:32 -0500 Subject: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available. In-Reply-To: <000701c73133$9b4238d0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <4597AA13.217.4A75473@cclist.sydex.com> <45982249.7030506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4597C28E.25598.506F302@cclist.sydex.com> <000701c73133$9b4238d0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On 1/5/07, Bob Shannon wrote: > I've just found an interesting vintage system. > > The machine is an Edax 9100 / 70. It contains a PDP 11/23 with MMU and FPP > chips installed running RT 11 V4, circa 1980... Interesting. > Keyboard / Console unit: > > A very retro-looking, nice keyboard with extra function keys, and a row of > alphanumeric LED display modules for programmable legends over the > function keys. All apparently controlled by standard RS-232 links to the > 11/23. The displays look like old Litronix DL-1414 modules. Nice. > Video Display unit: > > Uses a portrait-format CRT in a (then) futuristic tilt-swivel metal chassis. > This interfaces to the special video display system in the main chassis... > > This same display is also used to talk to the PDP/11, I'm thinking that the > UART in the display section (I have full schematics) is used to emulate > a dumb terminal with the ASCII keyboard section on the Keyboard / Console unit. That's an interesting way to do it. I'm curious how _dumb_ the emulated terminal is (VT52/VT100, totally dumb glass TTY, etc.) Portrait displays are quite unusual in vintage gear, and I'm curious to learn about any examples. > Better still, if someone wants a little RT-11 box, and does not care if > the DEC logo is nowhere to be found, this might be > a fun and funky little box to hack around on. I'm in Ohio, so I'll give this a pass to someone who is much closer, but it sounds cool. > Its really got killer retro looks, the styling of the thing is really > something (photos are possible). I'll "third" the request for photos, especially of the keyboard and display. -ethan From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Jan 5 21:08:04 2007 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:08:04 -0500 Subject: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available. References: <4597AA13.217.4A75473@cclist.sydex.com><45982249.7030506@jetnet.ab.ca><4597C28E.25598.506F302@cclist.sydex.com><000701c73133$9b4238d0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <012901c7313f$f4816590$0b05020a@gmi.domain> >> Better still, if someone wants a little RT-11 box, and does not care if >> the DEC logo is nowhere to be found, this might be >> a fun and funky little box to hack around on. Hmmm... How *little* is little? I'd like a small desktop PDP-11. I just gave away a couple of floor models that were too big for the space I have available. From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Jan 5 21:18:59 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:18:59 -0500 Subject: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available. References: <4597AA13.217.4A75473@cclist.sydex.com><45982249.7030506@jetnet.ab.ca><4597C28E.25598.506F302@cclist.sydex.com><000701c73133$9b4238d0$0100a8c0@screamer> <012901c7313f$f4816590$0b05020a@gmi.domain> Message-ID: <009101c73141$7905b180$0100a8c0@screamer> Not desktop little. Its clearly a floor model machine, maybe a bit over 20 inches wide. Its maybe 3 feet deep. I don't think its nearly as heavy as a Symbolics box. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Betz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 10:08 PM Subject: Re: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available. >>> Better still, if someone wants a little RT-11 box, and does not care if >>> the DEC logo is nowhere to be found, this might be >>> a fun and funky little box to hack around on. > > Hmmm... How *little* is little? I'd like a small desktop PDP-11. I just > gave away a couple of floor models that were too big for the space I have > available. > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 5 21:23:40 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:23:40 -0700 Subject: cctalk frappr? (was: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available.) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 05 Jan 2007 22:02:32 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > > Better still, if someone wants a little RT-11 box, and does not care if > > the DEC logo is nowhere to be found, this might be > > a fun and funky little box to hack around on. > > I'm in Ohio, so I'll give this a pass to someone who is much closer, > but it sounds cool. Speaking of locations... I know there are PDP8 owners PDP11 owner frappr maps. What other vintage computing frappr maps are out there? I think it would be very interesting to have a frappr map that represented all of the cctalkers. (Now if I could only figure out how to make frappr stop moving from place to place on the map but just *stay* in one place.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 5 21:34:22 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:34:22 -0600 Subject: cctalk frappr? (was: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available.) References: Message-ID: <00f901c73143$8fefdd60$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote... > I think it would be very interesting to have a frappr map that > represented all of the cctalkers. That is in the works. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 5 22:00:52 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:00:52 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING><1e1fc3e90701051245w133d45abxd6775fc00c19438d@mail.gmail.com><012401c73119$fb00de30$6500a8c0@BILLING> <006001c7313a$4eee6920$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <013e01c73147$43c59610$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob wrote.... > All F-series machines were ~supposed~ to use fault control memory, I think > this machine is setup that way. Don't pull the small boards until this is > understood. Hummm doesn't appear to be any fault control array stuff in there to me. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 5 22:04:33 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:04:33 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING><1e1fc3e90701051245w133d45abxd6775fc00c19438d@mail.gmail.com><012401c73119$fb00de30$6500a8c0@BILLING> <006001c7313a$4eee6920$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <014701c73147$c84ee080$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob wrote... > Ok, yes, it will power up without the FP box attached, but it will fail > the > FPU self-test when the special op-code is run via 'instruction step'. But that's not quite what I was wondering... What if the FP box *IS* attached, but the power interconnect (the power cable between cpu and ffp) cable isn't? This means the ribbon cable is connected, and the fpu is powered on, and then the cpu is powered on. Will this work... or is there some mechanism on the power side of the FPP unit that it will not come on unless the power interconnect cable is on too? I don't know how this works. Jay From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Jan 5 22:11:58 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 23:11:58 -0500 Subject: cctalk frappr? (was: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070105230948.04e11540@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: >Speaking of locations... I know there are > > PDP8 owners > > > PDP11 owner > > >frappr maps. > >What other vintage computing frappr maps are out there? There's a RS CoCo Frappr: http://www.frappr.com/radioshackcolorcomputer Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 5 22:49:18 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:49:18 -0800 Subject: the market is about to drop out on the Cat In-Reply-To: <20070106024851.77817.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Gone now. I'd suspect it was that fellow that has been stealing peoples ID and then posting item an saying that he will only take buy it now purchases. I've seen him a couple of times now. He likes items that are in the multi $K range. Dwight >From: Chris M >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: talk >Subject: the market is about to drop out on the Cat >Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 18:48:51 -0800 (PST) > >there's currently 10 on eBay right now. 9 of which are >from the previous seller (the one that banged out at >$1,926). Is the guy dopey? How could he reasonably >expect to get that money for each when he dumps them >all on the market at once??? I would think it would >make the most sense to spread them out. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. ?Who will win? http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 6 00:48:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:48:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: ebay - mindset in los angeles area p/u only Message-ID: <636065.97007.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> I aint got the link handy, but its searcheable. At about a buck still I think. The catch - either the monitor or the unit is defective. Currently still a valu __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Jan 6 00:51:43 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:51:43 -0800 Subject: House cleaning! Everything must go! In-Reply-To: <059001c7312f$fa8ff1f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <68a501c7315f$208af420$0701a8c0@liberator> There's a product called Rubber Renu that works wonders with the pickup rollers, they get plugged/glazed with paperdust after a while, and the rubber renu cleans them up and leaves them just slightly tacky like when they shipped from the factory. Other feed problems are with the cork separator pads.... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:11 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: House cleaning! Everything must go! > It is normally an easy repair. You need to replace the (D-shapped) pickup > roller. Eitehr the complete pickup shaft assembly, or if you want to save > money and do a little more work, just the roller (the latter is what I > always do). It's a common problem on SX printers. Tony, do you have an EASY source for these rollers? I have 3 or 4 SX printers that I'd love to donate to some charity, but all have the same problem. All of them were rebuilt by me (I have some articles written on repairfaq.org about the HP2/3 and HP4/5) but these rollers are impossible to be found in Brazil. Most american suppliers - dunno why - do not ship to Brazil. :o( From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jan 6 01:33:39 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 01:33:39 -0600 Subject: govliq messages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459F50D3.5080609@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > OK, so people generally seem pleased with me posting the links. > > Now for the big question... > > Has anyone purchased any of the lots that I've posted? :) Nothing you've posted that I've seen met the desire-over-distance quotient. :^) I'm sure soon enough something will. Doc From wizard at voyager.net Sat Jan 6 02:01:27 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 03:01:27 -0500 Subject: Lookee what I just got! Message-ID: <1168070487.4220.19.camel@linux.site> Hello, Jay, especially, but any other HP types, Well, I went and did it. I am now the proud owner of an HP-2117F, if I can identify it correctly, shown here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320067174880 ... and, FPU, shown here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320067174671 My experience with the HP 1000 series machines is, almost exclusively, programming them in TSB on HP-200B, C, and F systems, many moons ago. Jay, you seem to be an alpha geek when it comes to HP iron. (A term of respect, no offense intended...) So, could you look at the above auctions, and tell me what I need to make a good system. Obviously, a disk system comes to mind... but, if you could be specific, I would appreciate it. Also, what are the chances of this being a suitable machine to run Time-Share BASIC, or TSB? I imagine I would need microcode boards or ROM for the microcode boards already there, but, for all I know, it already *IS* a TSB machine. Thanks for your consideration. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Sat Jan 6 00:51:01 2007 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 00:51:01 -0600 Subject: HP2000 & terminal fun In-Reply-To: <20070106024851.77817.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070106024851.77817.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not fortunate enough to have any real hp-2000 class hardware to play with, but this evening I hooked an old ADM3A that I picked up a while back (on someone's curb) to my linux pc which runs vmware, which runs windows-NT which runs SIMH which runs my emulated HP2000 (mickey.ath.cx).... So, while I don't have the back-end hardware, I can sit at a nice classic terminal, running at 9600 baud (I may step it down to 300 baud just for memories), and play with my emulated hp. fun! (the only trouble with my ADM3A is the space bar is kida messed up...sticks a bit...not sure what's the fix for it yet)...even lowercase looks great! -Bob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Jan 6 03:15:20 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 10:15:20 +0100 Subject: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available. In-Reply-To: References: <4597AA13.217.4A75473@cclist.sydex.com> <45982249.7030506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4597C28E.25598.506F302@cclist.sydex.com> <000701c73133$9b4238d0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <1168074920.11603.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-01-05 at 22:02 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That's an interesting way to do it. I'm curious how _dumb_ the > emulated terminal is (VT52/VT100, totally dumb glass TTY, etc.) > Portrait displays are quite unusual in vintage gear, and I'm curious > to learn about any examples. Have you heard of the Facit "Twist"? Facit was, I believe, a Swedish company, made calculators, paper tape punches... some other miscellany, and this excellent terminal. The terminal when seen from the side was shaped like an L, with the CRT tube itself standing (in a plastic casing, of course) on the vertical part of it. You could grab the CRT and twist it 90 degrees. The terminal would send an escape code to the system, and the system would redraw the screen with the altered aspect ratio. It was an early terminal to use a white phosphor, and I believe it was scanned at 65Hz. On Tuesday I'm going to a museum which has one of these...somewhere... - I can try to get a picture of it, if you like. Norsk Data computers supported them natively in the USER-ENVIRONMENT and NOTIS office package. A friend of mine who spent time around the "Studio 54" (Named after the serial number of the NORD-10 they had been given) computer science student group at the University, walked in and saw two fellow students hacking away using a brand new Facit Twist donated to them by Norsk Data. "Oh, neat, a Twist!", he exclaimed, and immediately walked over and rotated the CRT. Unfortunately, they were in the kernel debugger, a decidedly non-screen-oriented program - the terminal sent its escape code, and (IIRC) the machine immediately crashed. -Tore :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 03:33:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 04:33:31 -0500 Subject: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available. In-Reply-To: <1168074920.11603.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4597AA13.217.4A75473@cclist.sydex.com> <45982249.7030506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4597C28E.25598.506F302@cclist.sydex.com> <000701c73133$9b4238d0$0100a8c0@screamer> <1168074920.11603.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 1/6/07, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > On Fri, 2007-01-05 at 22:02 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > That's an interesting way to do it. I'm curious how _dumb_ the > > emulated terminal is (VT52/VT100, totally dumb glass TTY, etc.) > > Portrait displays are quite unusual in vintage gear, and I'm curious > > to learn about any examples. > > Have you heard of the Facit "Twist"? Nope. > Facit was, I believe, a Swedish company, made calculators, paper tape > punches... some other miscellany, and this excellent terminal. I've heard of the company, but don't know the range of their products. I think I associate the name with paper tape punches mostly. > The terminal when seen from the side was shaped like an L, with the CRT > tube itself standing (in a plastic casing, of course) on the vertical > part of it. You could grab the CRT and twist it 90 degrees. The terminal > would send an escape code to the system, and the system would redraw the > screen with the altered aspect ratio. Nice. More than just aspect ratio - somehow, hardware or software, it would have to change how it renders its bits. I don't _think_ you can arbitrarily exchange horizontal and vertical deflectors on a CRT, but you could run a matrix transform on the bitmap in memory and change all the drawing routines to swap axes without too much trouble, I'd expect. > On Tuesday I'm going to a museum which has one of these...somewhere... - > I can try to get a picture of it, if you like. Please do. > A friend of mine who spent time around the "Studio 54" (Named after the > serial number of the NORD-10 they had been given) computer science > student group at the University, walked in and saw two fellow students > hacking away using a brand new Facit Twist donated to them by Norsk > Data. > > "Oh, neat, a Twist!", he exclaimed, and immediately walked over and > rotated the CRT. Unfortunately, they were in the kernel debugger, a > decidedly non-screen-oriented program - the terminal sent its escape > code, and (IIRC) the machine immediately crashed. Oops! The closest thing I had to that experience was working where they had some public machines set up for classes and casual non-work-related surfing. Most, if not all, of the machines had an HP LCD with a pivot feature. You turned the screen to portrait mode, and used the Windows screen preferences to tell the system what the orientation of the screen was (no slick little sensor like the "twist", unfortunately). I spotted the "rotate me" sticker on the LCD, did the dance and told the machine that it was in portrait orientation. I left in a bit of a hurry and didn't put it back to landscape mode before I left - someone came and tracked me down because nobody could figure out how to "fix it". :-/ I guess "modern" machines don't care which edge is up, but besides the twist, I don't know of any classic machine that can be used both ways. I know of the AT&T terminal with a portrait view CRT, and plenty of arcade machines have the CRT on its "side" (Gorf, PacMan, Tempest...), but once you get through the rather short list of oddball machines, you are left with a *huge* pile of landscape-oriented systems that scan from left to right fast, and top to bottom less fast. My mother had a "full page display" (portrait orientation) for her Mac SE, but due to driver/firmware version mismatches, I never got it working. I think it's somewhere in a closet waiting for me to dig it out. Love to see those pictures. Thanks, -ethan From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Jan 5 13:14:35 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:14:35 +0100 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: <20070105165105.466.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <20070105191408.DFA1DB1786@mac-mini.local> On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 11:51:05 -0500, Ken Seefried wrote: >I recall Opus made a AT bus plugin card with a Clipper. Think it ran Clix. I have such a card, but no software and docs :( ... Can anyone help ? Thanks Bernd From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Jan 6 04:18:15 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 11:18:15 +0100 Subject: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available. In-Reply-To: References: <4597AA13.217.4A75473@cclist.sydex.com> <45982249.7030506@jetnet.ab.ca> <4597C28E.25598.506F302@cclist.sydex.com> <000701c73133$9b4238d0$0100a8c0@screamer> <1168074920.11603.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1168078695.11603.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2007-01-06 at 04:33 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 1/6/07, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > > The terminal when seen from the side was shaped like an L, with the CRT > > tube itself standing (in a plastic casing, of course) on the vertical > > part of it. You could grab the CRT and twist it 90 degrees. The terminal > > would send an escape code to the system, and the system would redraw the > > screen with the altered aspect ratio. > > Nice. More than just aspect ratio - somehow, hardware or software, it > would have to change how it renders its bits. I don't _think_ you can > arbitrarily exchange horizontal and vertical deflectors on a CRT, but > you could run a matrix transform on the bitmap in memory and change > all the drawing routines to swap axes without too much trouble, I'd > expect. Yes, I believe that is what it did. Another bit of trivia was that it was apparently very susceptible to burn-in. > > On Tuesday I'm going to a museum which has one of these...somewhere... - > > I can try to get a picture of it, if you like. > > Please do. I'll do my best. No promises, though - not my camera. -Tore :) From jrr at flippers.com Fri Jan 5 16:59:03 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:59:03 -0800 Subject: Ebay: HP 82045A Thermal Paper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:15 PM +0000 1/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> I am interersted in buying some thermal paper for a Hewlett Packard >> printer. Can you give me any help? My email at home is btu68 at aol.com. > >What model of HP printer, and is there anything special about the paper >(sproket holes, for example{ ? > >-tony Indeed, if it does not have sprocket holes then take a roll of thermal FAX paper and get it cut to size... I had a bunch of rolls of plain 20 pound paper made for me for an application (Computerized Photobooth from the late 70's) - these needed to be perforated and a certain width - off-size. Was not TOO expensive ($700US) for ten rolls - 12.5" X 2000ft each as I recall. So if there is any demand for this thermal paper then he might want to consider having some made to order. Thermal paper does have a shelf life as well. Ten year old thermal FAX paper rarely works in my experience. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Jan 5 01:30:13 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 23:30:13 -0800 Subject: House cleaning! Everything must go! In-Reply-To: <200701050718.l057IVZW009138@floodgap.com> References: <200701050718.l057IVZW009138@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <459DFE85.1090808@msu.edu> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Computers: >> - Apple Network Server 700/200. 200Mhz 603 PPC, 128mb of ram, CD-ROM, >> > > 604 actually. This message is being sent by a 500/200 :) > Ah, mea culpa. Never could keep those numbers straight :). Josh From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jan 5 04:21:32 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 10:21:32 -0000 Subject: Purposefully fudged schematics Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393D3D@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I have seen a TV program on the one they built. It was beautifully made in brass and steel and what's more it worked! The program said he did not finish it because he simply ran out of money! Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Honniball Sent: 04 January 2007 21:15 To: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Purposefully fudged schematics woodelf wrote: > To get back on topic about babbage's drawings, from what I read it was > mechnical design that could not be produced with 18th century > mechanical enginering. I thought the Science Museum rebuild showed that it could be built with 19th century engineering? They deliberately didn't make it any more accurate than Babbage could have, and they only found a couple of minor difficulties. One was that it was too hard to turn the handle, so they geared it down. Surely something that, if Babbage had finished the Difference Engine, he'd have done himself? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From dan at decodesystems.com Fri Jan 5 12:59:08 2007 From: dan at decodesystems.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 13:59:08 -0500 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: <20070105165105.466.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200701051356.l05DtdRe054914@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070105165105.466.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20070105135744.0974c440@mail.marcal.com> At 11:51 AM 1/5/07, you wrote: >I recall Opus made a AT bus plugin card with a Clipper. Think it ran Clix. I've got one of these: http://decodesystems.com/help-wanted/opus.html If anyone has a pointer to documentation and/or software, that would be very helpful. Thanks! Cheers, Dan From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jan 5 14:10:01 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:10:01 +0000 Subject: not quite on topic but, classic analogue satellite tv decoding boxes In-Reply-To: <1853.192.168.0.4.1168026421.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1853.192.168.0.4.1168026421.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <459EB099.9080501@gjcp.net> Witchy wrote: > Hello folks, > > I've got a pair of old UK SKY TV boxen (1997 era) that are pretty useless > as analogue SKY TV was switched off in 2001; can the hardware be used for > anything else or is it pretty much paperweight material? Point the dish somewhere else; pick up other analogue satellite transmissions. IIRC the IF is about 2.5GHz. You might be able to use it to pick up wireless CCTV installations (and police "eye-in-the-sky" helicopters). Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jan 5 14:38:25 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:38:25 +0000 Subject: govliq messages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459EB741.10400@gjcp.net> Richard wrote: > Does anyone find this useful? > > Does anyone find this annoying? I hate it, because it's all really cool stuff that I can't afford to have shipped across the pond ;-) Gordon From sdc695 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 5 17:11:29 2007 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 15:11:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Keyboard question Message-ID: <638950.27215.qm@web60823.mail.yahoo.com> While not exactly computer directly related, since the silly box does have a computer in it, I'd thought I'd ask here. I've got an old TV Character generator, a Laird CG7000 to be exact. It has a nice standard 5 pin DIN connector on the front panel for its "keyboard". Now to me this looks just like a standard AT type keyboard, but alas it does nothing unless I beat on the keys then something might show up. Would anyone know what type of keyboard they use for this silly thing. It is a bit old, and I suspect it might be an XT (not an AT) keyboard (which are different). I'm going to attempt to trace out the connections to figure it out, but if someone on the list has a clue, it would be helpful to me. Not wanting to clog things up further, a response off list if probably the best. Thanks. -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jan 6 06:24:06 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:24:06 -0000 Subject: New find, Edax PDP 11/23 system available. In-Reply-To: <000701c73133$9b4238d0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <004201c7318d$93735f30$9204010a@uatempname> Bob Shannon wrote: > I've just found an interesting vintage system. > M8028 (no idea) DPV11 > M8016 YB (don't know this one either, I used to drive UNIBUS 11's) KPV11 Antonio From bernd at kopriva.de Sat Jan 6 11:25:01 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 18:25:01 +0100 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: <20070105191408.DFA1DB1786@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: <20070106172436.8CD8AB1C37@mac-mini.local> On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:14:35 +0100, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 11:51:05 -0500, Ken Seefried wrote: >>I recall Opus made a AT bus plugin card with a Clipper. Think it ran Clix. >I have such a card, but no software and docs :( ... >Can anyone help ? >Thanks Bernd i've checked the board again, it's a board manufactured by Zaiaz, probably it's not the same as the Opus board, so my request for software/docs is for that one ... Ciao Bernd From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 6 11:51:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 09:51:16 -0800 Subject: My second Mac Message-ID: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com> I picked up another Mac yesterday--a beige 300 Mhz G3 with 256MB, and a 15 GB hard disk. It's also got a USB adapter plugged into one of the PCI slots. It's running OS 9.something. Set me back $20. Were Zip drives a standard part of these things? On a side-by-side with a Win2K P1 225MHz system with the same amount of memory, I think the WIndoze box has snappier response and has better video. For you Mac addicts, what do you think should be my next step in getting the most out of this box? I don't care for the Mac monitor that came with it--has anyone tried hooking up a fixed-frequency SOG workstation monitor to it? I've got a nice HP/Sony model that might be a candidate. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 6 12:12:56 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 10:12:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: My second Mac Message-ID: <410445.73732.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> ugh and here I was thinking someone sent him a fat Mac. WS monitors work readily with even the oldest Mac IIs w/an appropriate card. Never did it with a G3 but. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 6 12:19:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 10:19:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: My second Mac Message-ID: <20070106181908.45982.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> ...and Macs only put out video as theyre set to, at the cable-vid card junction. Youll need a doohicky to initialize it 2 a proper vid mode 4 such a display. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 6 12:19:28 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 10:19:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: My second Mac Message-ID: <582356.993.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> ...and Macs only put out video as theyre set to, at the cable-vid card junction. Youll need a doohicky to initialize it 2 a proper vid mode 4 such a display. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From medavidson at mac.com Sat Jan 6 13:44:50 2007 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:44:50 -0800 Subject: Pr1me boxes In-Reply-To: <013301c722e1$6fa133d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <013301c722e1$6fa133d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Count me in... Mark On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Jay West wrote: > I'm taking a straw poll here.... how many folks are interested in > obtaining a Prime 50-series computer (in general, not a specific > model) for their collection? > > I'm not really wanting to count anyone who thinks "yeah, I'd take > one if it showed up on my doorstep for free". I'm more interested > in a rough count of people who want one enough to actually drive a > ways, or pay shipping plus "token" amount, etc. Someone who would > seriously pursue one if it became available to them. > > If you meet that criteria, let me know! > > Jay > > > > > --- Mark Davidson medavidson at mac.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 6 14:09:52 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:09:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: garbled display Message-ID: <452825.57116.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> actually rows and columns of blocks of ascii chars, some blinking. To which Im greeted upon switching on a Tandy 2000. Typically what does this indicate? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 6 14:26:36 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:26:36 -0800 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com> References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 9:51 AM -0800 1/6/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I picked up another Mac yesterday--a beige 300 Mhz G3 with 256MB, >and a 15 GB hard disk. It's also got a USB adapter plugged into one >of the PCI slots. It's running OS 9.something. Set me back $20. >Were Zip drives a standard part of these things? That's probably about the model before my G4/450 AGP. If so a Zip drive could have been standard. Does it have a faceplate that matches the rest of the system? >On a side-by-side with a Win2K P1 225MHz system with the same amount >of memory, I think the WIndoze box has snappier response and has >better video. If this is the case there might be some sort of software problem with that Mac. A badly configured Mac could very well be having issues, but a well configured one should seem pretty snappy. Might also need the HD defragged. Though Mac OS 9 can be pretty sluggish on a G3. >For you Mac addicts, what do you think should be my next step in >getting the most out of this box? You could run Mac OS X on it, but that would likely be painful, especially with only 256MB. If you have the needed disks, I'd consider wiping the drive and putting either Mac OS 8.6 or 9.2 on there. Of course if you want to be able to surf from this system, Mac OS X is pretty much a requirement. There is no modern web browser for Mac OS 9. >I don't care for the Mac monitor that came with it--has anyone tried >hooking up a fixed-frequency SOG workstation monitor to it? I've got >a nice HP/Sony model that might be a candidate. Possibly, but I have my doubts. How hard would it be to hook that monitor up to a PC? That's about how hard it will be to hook it up to the Mac. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 6 14:41:35 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:41:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2nd mac Message-ID: <420186.36145.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> regarding the monitor issue, been there done that. If the G3 uses the same sense-pin scenario as earlier macs. then a dongle and a bnc cable will put u in biz __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 6 14:57:06 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:57:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 6, 7 09:51:16 am" Message-ID: <200701062057.l06Kv6k4022416@floodgap.com> > I picked up another Mac yesterday--a beige 300 Mhz G3 with 256MB, > and a 15 GB hard disk. It's also got a USB adapter plugged into one > of the PCI slots. It's running OS 9.something. Set me back $20. > Were Zip drives a standard part of these things? Zip drives were available. I have a beige G3 that is identical to yours, except that it does have a Zip drive installed in the secondary bay. > On a side-by-side with a Win2K P1 225MHz system with the same amount > of memory, I think the WIndoze box has snappier response and has > better video. The beige G3 has only a Rage II+ card by default. The later Revision 2 and 3 use Rage Pro. Thus, I think the video issue you're noticing is probably the accelerator. The original 300 is almost certainly Revision 1. You might as well get a Rage Orion and I think you'll find the performance much better. The Rage Orion is a 16MB Rage 128 PCI card, and I know from personal experience that it is Mac-compatible and has good performance. They're pretty cheap on the used market. > I don't care for the Mac monitor that came with it--has anyone tried > hooking up a fixed-frequency SOG workstation monitor to it? I've got > a nice HP/Sony model that might be a candidate. If you opt not to get a new video card, just get one of the Mac-VGA converters and use that with a standard multisync. I think you'll find that the easiest approach. The G3 can run up to 10.2.8 without help, or 10.3.9 with XPostFaco, but you will need a PCI video card if you choose to try that. There are also some issues with Revision 1 systems booting Mac OS X -- you must ensure that the boot partition is within the first 8GB. It's simplest just to partition the disk and install OS X into a new leading 8GB partition, but if you plan to use OS 9 exclusively this is irrelevant. ROM revision (something)40F2 is Revision 1 and the System Profiler should tell this to you. 45Fx is Revision 2 and 3. The G3 is notoriously difficult to install NetBSD on, and I think Linux has some similar problems varying with distribution. OS X Jaguar is your best bet for Unix. Despite this, it is a very nice machine for the generation. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin ------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 6 15:21:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 13:21:41 -0800 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <459FA265.22439.B19F652@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jan 2007 at 12:26, Zane H. Healy wrote: > That's probably about the model before my G4/450 AGP. If so a Zip > drive could have been standard. Does it have a faceplate that > matches the rest of the system? Yup--and the little tag on the back mentions the Zip drive, now that I have my near-see glasses on. This one also has 1MB cache and some sort of AV card in it. I understand that low-profile 256MB SIMMs can be installed, but that they need to be a special type, not the usual PC133 type. Is this true--and any guidelines to make sure that I'm picking up the right flavor? I found a version of Mozilla 1.3.1 that runs on it at http://www.wamcom.org. It seems to be adequate for casual browsing. I've used fixed-frequency WS monitors on PCs since the first 19" Daisy that I obtained, around 1988. It's only lately that I've begun using LCD monitors. I was concerned that there might be something REALLY funny about Mac video. (OT: Does anyone need the manual for the big Daisy monitor (the one made by Mitsubishi with a locking drawer in front) that details where all of the adjustments are? I have it and have no use for it). I guess Linux is the next step. Any favorite flavors? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 6 15:06:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 21:06:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ebay: HP 82045A Thermal Paper In-Reply-To: from "John Robertson" at Jan 5, 7 02:59:03 pm Message-ID: > > At 7:15 PM +0000 1/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > >> I am interersted in buying some thermal paper for a Hewlett Packard > >> printer. Can you give me any help? My email at home is btu68 at aol.com. > > > >What model of HP printer, and is there anything special about the paper > >(sproket holes, for example{ ? > > > >-tony > > Indeed, if it does not have sprocket holes then take a roll of > thermal FAX paper and get it cut to size... FWIW, a normal thermal fax roll works fine in the 9866 printer (as used with 98x0 'calculators'). I have no idea if it puts more wear on the printhead than the genuine HP paper (HP used to make that sort of claim, I wonder how much of it was to sell their own paper :-)), but it's fine for the amount of use such a printer is likely to get today. It also works fine in the 2761, and I should perhaps tell you a little story about that. As you probably know, European paper is 210mm wide, US paper is 216 mm wide. I wnet to one branch of a well-known chain of stationery shops in London and they only had 210mm fax rolls. I bought one and found I could just get the 2761 to print on it if I positioned it just right (so that the head didn't move off the edge of the paper and then snarl up as it moved back). So I went out the garage and made a couple brss disks of the right thichness to fit over the paper roll spindle and hold the roll in the right place. It works fine. But boy was I annoyed when I went to another branch of the same chop and found they also sold 216mm wide rolls.... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 6 15:38:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 13:38:49 -0800 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <200701062057.l06Kv6k4022416@floodgap.com> References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 6, 7 09:51:16 am", <200701062057.l06Kv6k4022416@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <459FA669.29127.B29A31F@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jan 2007 at 12:57, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ROM revision (something)40F2 is Revision 1 and the System Profiler > should tell this to you. 45Fx is Revision 2 and 3. Profiler reports $77D:45F2, which apparently makes it a Rev C--and it does have a Rage Pro chip on the mobo. Thanks for all of the knowledge on these things. I've studiously avoided Macs for decades and thought I'd take the plunge now that they're going for less than the price of a haircut. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 6 15:47:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 13:47:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com> References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070106134710.P12278@shell.lmi.net> Are you going to continue that exponential increase in your collection? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 6 17:33:35 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 15:33:35 -0800 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <459FA265.22439.B19F652@cclist.sydex.com> References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com>, <459FA265.22439.B19F652@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 1:21 PM -0800 1/6/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 6 Jan 2007 at 12:26, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> That's probably about the model before my G4/450 AGP. If so a Zip >> drive could have been standard. Does it have a faceplate that >> matches the rest of the system? > >Yup--and the little tag on the back mentions the Zip drive, now that >I have my near-see glasses on. This one also has 1MB cache and some >sort of AV card in it. Sounds like this might have been the follow-on to the 8500/8600 models then. Somehow when I'd read your first post I'd read Beige as Blue and White, so your system is actually quite a bit older than I thought. >I understand that low-profile 256MB SIMMs can be installed, but that >they need to be a special type, not the usual PC133 type. Is this >true--and any guidelines to make sure that I'm picking up the right >flavor? Depends on how old the system is, as to how picky it is. I'd recommend checking out one of the old Mac HW sites. >I found a version of Mozilla 1.3.1 that runs on it at >http://www.wamcom.org. It seems to be adequate for casual browsing. Nice. >I've used fixed-frequency WS monitors on PCs since the first 19" >Daisy that I obtained, around 1988. It's only lately that I've begun >using LCD monitors. I was concerned that there might be something >REALLY funny about Mac video. As this isn't as new of a system as I was thinking, as a result it might be a bit more difficult than I'd indicated. As Cameron indicates you'll likely need a Mac-VGA converter, they used to be real easy to find as a lot of monitors shipped with them. >I guess Linux is the next step. Any favorite flavors? No clue here, I won't waste Mac Hardware on Linux (just like I won't run Unix on VAXen or Alpha's). You might look at Yellow-Dog, IIRC, it's a distro for Mac's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 6 17:40:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 16:40:54 -0700 Subject: 2.5GB bigfoot drives on dovebid Message-ID: Wasn't there some discussion recently looking for < 10 GB drives? There's a bunch of 2.5GB drives on dovebid right now... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 6 17:51:22 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:51:22 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING><1e1fc3e90701051245w133d45abxd6775fc00c19438d@mail.gmail.com><012401c73119$fb00de30$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1e1fc3e90701051534l7df2c326m314ce92776df6e02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001c731ed$caf0fe30$6500a8c0@BILLING> I had written.... >> Warren... I'll gladly trade some of my HP boards in exchange for one or >> two >> of the microcircuit boards in there ;) To which Glen replied... > I have a few 12566 boards and some relay boards, forget their number. That may or may not help, as "12566" means lots of different things and doesn't describe an exact board - GRD TRU, + TRU, Microcircuit Interface, Printer interface... all slightly different variations of the boards generically marked 12566. In other words, 12566 is not specific enough, you need the rest of the letters & numbers after it to know exactly what it is. Some of the variations are just different wirings (and in some cases I think a different chip or two) giving different electrical characteristics but the boards look almost identical to the naked eye. The 12566 boards that I desire, don't look anything like the "normal" 12566 boards. The ones I want are labled 12566-60032 and have boatloads of dip jumpers on them, no solder jumpers. I have lots of 12566 boards, but they aren't the 12566 boards I want. > I'd like to make a real plug for the battery backup 820ohm thermistor > bypass. I just have a resistor with its legs folded over wedged into > the connector for now. Yeah, I know just what you mean. Got a bunch of those 820o's folded just the way you describe. There is an AMP office close to me. I was wondering if I took one of my connectors in to them.... This could be a good project for home plastic molding maybe... but then the problem is finding the right pins. And most crimp pins for those type of connectors aren't just round pins you solder on, they have little latches & such on them. Ah well. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 6 17:58:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 15:58:23 -0800 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <20070106134710.P12278@shell.lmi.net> References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070106134710.P12278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <459FC71F.8636.BA9695C@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jan 2007 at 13:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > Are you going to continue that exponential increase in your collection? Nope--the 6100 goes back into recycling next week--I've got no real use for it. I was curious about Macs and figured it might be time to actually play with one. I've written utilities (to run on PeeCee) for handling Mac media, but never actually owned a Mac. I do own a set of the "Inside Macintosh" books, however. Go figure. When I get my fill of fooling around I'll give the G3 away. I really miss the command prompt. One thing I didn't expect is the involved model and OS requirements for various bits of software. I thought that the idea was that one didn't have to engage in the upgrading game on a Mac like PC people do. From what I've seen thus far, if anything, the Mac world seems to be almost worse in that respect. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 6 18:03:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 16:03:04 -0800 Subject: 2.5GB bigfoot drives on dovebid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459FC838.14212.BADB3A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jan 2007 at 16:40, Richard wrote: > Wasn't there some discussion recently looking for < 10 GB drives? > > There's a bunch of 2.5GB drives on dovebid right now... Quantum Bigfoot--bleah. Miserable things. The local computer recycler is selling 3.5" tested-and-scrubbed 4GB SCSI or IDE (take your pick), drives for a buck each; 6GB ones are two bucks. Smaller ones are name-a-price. They've got boxes and boxes of the things. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 6 18:16:30 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:16:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <459FC71F.8636.BA9695C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070106134710.P12278@shell.lmi.net> <459FC71F.8636.BA9695C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070106160805.E17290@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > handling Mac media, but never actually owned a Mac. I do own a set > of the "Inside Macintosh" books, however. Go figure. When they first came out (before they were published to the public), the only way to get a set was to become a "registered developer". I did, just to get the books. IIRC, the first set that they sent me was looseleaf. > One thing I didn't expect is the involved model and OS requirements > for various bits of software. I thought that the idea was that one > didn't have to engage in the upgrading game on a Mac like PC people > do. From what I've seen thus far, if anything, the Mac world seems > to be almost worse in that respect. Although the "Mac culture" denies it vehemently, and claims that "everything just works when you connect it", I think that it is pretty much identical to the PC world of that time. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 6 18:16:25 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 18:16:25 -0600 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <459FC71F.8636.BA9695C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070106134710.P12278@shell.lmi.net> <459FC71F.8636.BA9695C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45A03BD9.8050401@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I thought that the idea was that one > didn't have to engage in the upgrading game on a Mac like PC people > do. From what I've seen thus far, if anything, the Mac world seems > to be almost worse in that respect. Maybe in the 1980s, but yes, things are just the same mid-1990's and later. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 6 18:17:45 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 18:17:45 -0600 Subject: 2.5GB bigfoot drives on dovebid In-Reply-To: <459FC838.14212.BADB3A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <459FC838.14212.BADB3A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45A03C29.9070404@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The local computer recycler is selling 3.5" tested-and-scrubbed 4GB > SCSI or IDE (take your pick), drives for a buck each; 6GB ones are > two bucks. Smaller ones are name-a-price. They've got boxes and > boxes of the things. Posts like this drive me nuts: Where can I find a "local computer recycler" in my area?! I'm in Illinois, near Chicago. I want deals like this! (acts like baby) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jan 6 18:48:42 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 18:48:42 -0600 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <20070106160805.E17290@shell.lmi.net> References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com> <20070106134710.P12278@shell.lmi.net> <459FC71F.8636.BA9695C@cclist.sydex.com> <20070106160805.E17290@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070106184755.06c92ab0@mail> At 06:16 PM 1/6/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> handling Mac media, but never actually owned a Mac. I do own a set >> of the "Inside Macintosh" books, however. Go figure. > >When they first came out (before they were published to the public), the >only way to get a set was to become a "registered developer". I did, just >to get the books. IIRC, the first set that they sent me was looseleaf. I still have all my old Mac and Amiga developer docs in storage. As years went by, I believe Apple put all the Inside Mac paper on CD. Searchable, even. - John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Jan 6 18:52:23 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 00:52:23 -0000 (GMT) Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <459FA265.22439.B19F652@cclist.sydex.com> References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com>, <459FA265.22439.B19F652@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1158.192.168.0.4.1168131143.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, January 6, 2007 21:21, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Yup--and the little tag on the back mentions the Zip drive, now that > I have my near-see glasses on. This one also has 1MB cache and some > sort of AV card in it. The Zip was standard on most models aside from the 233, IIRC. Nice machine for Mac-based noodlings though others have already mentioned the lack of a modern web browser - iCab is the closest these days but it costs. Netscape is still a goer as is IE 5 for Mac. That machine will run early versions of OSX if you can find them, though I've no idea how fast it'll be; 10.4 struggles sometimes on my 733mhz G4 with a gig of RAM. > I understand that low-profile 256MB SIMMs can be installed, but that > they need to be a special type, not the usual PC133 type. Is this > true--and any guidelines to make sure that I'm picking up the right > flavor? I've got mixtures running in my older Macs, both PC133 and PC100. Even stuff from an old Dell server will run in a beige G3. Right now I've got a beige 266 that's happily running half a gig of standard PC133. There *were* restrictions on DIMM height but so far I haven't found a stick that doesn't work. > Daisy that I obtained, around 1988. It's only lately that I've begun > using LCD monitors. I was concerned that there might be something > REALLY funny about Mac video. I get by with a ukp10 video converter when I don't have a handy Mac monitor kicking around; it needs to be told the res and frequency via the gift of DIP switches but it works. Failing that get an ATI PCI card and use that instead, I think any RAGE series one will do. Happy Mac-ing :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 6 18:59:16 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:59:16 -0800 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <20070106160805.E17290@shell.lmi.net> References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070106134710.P12278@shell.lmi.net> <459FC71F.8636.BA9695C@cclist.sydex.com> <20070106160805.E17290@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 4:16 PM -0800 1/6/07, Fred Cisin wrote: >Although the "Mac culture" denies it vehemently, and claims that >"everything just works when you connect it", I think that it is >pretty much identical to the PC world of that time. It really depends a lot on how good of a company made the product you're trying to use. Plus if you by Pro software I think you'll have an easier go than with consumer grade software. I've owned a Mac since '95, and the except for a couple of OS updates that weren't worth running, everything has pretty much just worked, with a couple exceptions. Getting Professional Audio Hardware and software to work together, and the Kodak Camera's printer dock we got a few years ago. One really important thing to have a nice stable well behaved Mac has been to stay away from 3rd party OS extensions. I've done that for my last 3 systems, as a result they've been rock solid. I have yet to see things on the Windows side of the computer world be anywhere near as simple as with a Mac. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 6 19:01:01 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:01:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: my second Mac Message-ID: <200701070101.l07111bP011794@floodgap.com> > One thing I didn't expect is the involved model and OS requirements > for various bits of software. I thought that the idea was that one > didn't have to engage in the upgrading game on a Mac like PC people > do. From what I've seen thus far, if anything, the Mac world seems > to be almost worse in that respect. I assume by this you're referring to the particular constraints of running a particular OS on a particular hardware configuration. Just to put it into perspective, the first beige G3 was introduced in 1997, but the Public Beta was not released until 2000 and OS X 10.0 not until 2001. The hardware issues that affected OS X didn't become apparent, then, for several years. These were originally OS 8 machines, after all. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Honk if you're illiterate! ------------------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 6 19:27:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 17:27:34 -0800 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070106160805.E17290@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <459FDC06.9867.BFB122F@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jan 2007 at 16:59, Zane H. Healy wrote: > It really depends a lot on how good of a company made the product > you're trying to use. Plus if you by Pro software I think you'll > have an easier go than with consumer grade software. I've owned a > Mac since '95, and the except for a couple of OS updates that weren't > worth running, everything has pretty much just worked, with a couple > exceptions. Getting Professional Audio Hardware and software to work > together, and the Kodak Camera's printer dock we got a few years ago. I grabbed the first thing that came to hand and read the requirements. This is for Sibelius 2.11 (released 2002), which is what would probably be classified as a pro-level music notation package (at least my publisher accepts scores written in it). It isn't cheap--about $500-600 and upgraded almost yearly--single-system use is enforced by a rather elaborate licensing scheme. Mac: G4/G3/Fast PowerMac, Mac OS 8.6 to 10.1 or later (not 10.0), 15MB+ free RAM (20+ recommended) CD-ROM, 80MB hard disk space. PC: Pentium or fast 486 (Pentium II or later recommended), Windows 95/98/Me/2000/XP/NT 4 or later, 32MB+ RAM, CD-ROM, 40MB hard disk space. Although I haven't tried it, I suspect that the package might run after a fashion under Win32S under Win3.1 on a 386, given sufficient RAM. This may be a chance exception, but it seems to me that the x86 requirements are a lot looser than the Mac ones. Cheers, Chuck From josefcub at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 19:37:28 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 19:37:28 -0600 Subject: HP2000 & terminal fun In-Reply-To: References: <20070106024851.77817.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920701061737p34506bdexe1a9f309420d58fb@mail.gmail.com> Bob, On 1/6/07, Bob Brown wrote: > I'm not fortunate enough to have any real hp-2000 class hardware to > play with, but this evening I hooked an old ADM3A that I picked up a > while back (on someone's curb) to my linux pc which runs vmware, > which runs windows-NT which runs SIMH which runs my emulated HP2000 > (mickey.ath.cx).... > That sounds like the arrangement I usually have, to run things. ;-) But you do know you can compile and/or run SIMH on Linux directly, without the slowdown of Windows NT and VMWare in the middle, right? If your distribution doesn't support compilation easily, I'm sure someone on the list would compile it for you if need be. :) > So, while I don't have the back-end hardware, I can sit at a nice > classic terminal, running at 9600 baud (I may step it down to 300 > baud just for memories), and play with my emulated hp. Sounds like loads of fun! I did the same thing, albeit with a Wyse terminal and a SIMH emulated VAX, until I'd gotten a real VAXstation bootstrapped using the same emulator. :-) Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jan 6 21:35:45 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 19:35:45 -0800 Subject: My second Mac References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 6, 7 09:51:16 am", <200701062057.l06Kv6k4022416@floodgap.com> <459FA669.29127.B29A31F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45A06A8A.A4AEF383@cs.ubc.ca> If you prefer to hack an adapter rather than go looking for one, the following diagram and notes may help: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/MacVideoAdapt.gif This was derived from the two-stages of off-the-shelf adapters (Mac->VGA->13W3) I use on a similar beige G3 (with internal Zip drive BTW) to drive a Sun (OEM Sony) 17" monitor. www.everymac.com is pretty good for basic mac config & specs, i.e.: http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g3/stats/powermac_g3_266_mt.html From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 6 21:41:24 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 19:41:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <459FDC06.9867.BFB122F@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 6, 7 05:27:34 pm" Message-ID: <200701070341.l073fPxs013472@floodgap.com> > I grabbed the first thing that came to hand and read the > requirements. This is for Sibelius 2.11 (released 2002), which is > what would probably be classified as a pro-level music notation > package (at least my publisher accepts scores written in it). It > isn't cheap--about $500-600 and upgraded almost yearly--single-system > use is enforced by a rather elaborate licensing scheme. > > Mac: G4/G3/Fast PowerMac, Mac OS 8.6 to 10.1 or later (not 10.0), > 15MB+ free RAM (20+ recommended) CD-ROM, 80MB hard disk space. > > PC: Pentium or fast 486 (Pentium II or later recommended), Windows > 95/98/Me/2000/XP/NT 4 or later, 32MB+ RAM, CD-ROM, 40MB hard disk > space. > > Although I haven't tried it, I suspect that the package might run > after a fashion under Win32S under Win3.1 on a 386, given sufficient > RAM. > > This may be a chance exception, but it seems to me that the x86 > requirements are a lot looser than the Mac ones. In what way? "Fast PowerMac" can refer to anything down to a high end 603e (it would suck as much as it would on a 486, but still). "G4/G3/Fast Power Mac" covers several generations of Power Mac right there, potentially as much latitude as the PC requirements. And while you say a 386 could run it, for that matter, a 601 might be able to too. A 601 can boot 8.6, after all. The software may even work okay on 8.1 given a fat enough extension set, very much analogous to Win32s on 3.1. So I don't see what's so restrictive about the Mac requirements at all, frankly. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All the sensitive [men] get eaten. -- "Ice Age" ---------------------------- From oldcomp at cox.net Sat Jan 6 22:17:25 2007 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan K. Blackburn) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 21:17:25 -0700 Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! In-Reply-To: <459DCDF6.4000200@msu.edu> References: <459DCDF6.4000200@msu.edu> Message-ID: <45A07455.1090104@cox.net> Recently we have seen recreations of several vintage computers like the Mark-8 Minicomputer, the Apple 1, the IMSAI 8080 and most recently the Altair 8800, but wait till you see this!!! eBay item # 230051400851 The effort that must have went into this project...! Detailed construction photos here: http://www.lostinspacerobot.com/newsletter.html I confess that I have always wanted one of these! :) I have no connection with the seller etc. & etc. From evan at snarc.net Sat Jan 6 22:22:50 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:22:50 -0500 Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! In-Reply-To: <45A07455.1090104@cox.net> Message-ID: <000001c73213$7f98db80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> LOL ... it costs $24,500 ... I can think of better uses. -----Original Message----- From: Bryan K. Blackburn [mailto:oldcomp at cox.net] Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! Recently we have seen recreations of several vintage computers like the Mark-8 Minicomputer, the Apple 1, the IMSAI 8080 and most recently the Altair 8800, but wait till you see this!!! eBay item # 230051400851 The effort that must have went into this project...! Detailed construction photos here: http://www.lostinspacerobot.com/newsletter.html I confess that I have always wanted one of these! :) I have no connection with the seller etc. & etc. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Jan 6 22:27:17 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 20:27:17 -0800 Subject: Sun plastics Message-ID: <566761d653d63dfcdd81c05e15788052@valleyimplants.com> Has anyone had success fixing the plastic "alloy" that Sun uses in their cases? MEK and cyanoacrylate turn it into a mushy grainy mess. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 6 22:49:28 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 20:49:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun plastics Message-ID: <20070107044928.67450.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> try something less potent. Testors, 2 part epoxy, gorilla glue, Goop... --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Has anyone had success fixing the plastic "alloy" that Sun uses in > their cases? > > MEK and cyanoacrylate turn it into a mushy grainy mess. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From useddec at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 22:50:07 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 22:50:07 -0600 Subject: RL02 parts, controllers, etc. Message-ID: <624966d60701062050l70bb229fkf23a1e2c3f2d86b7@mail.gmail.com> I have 3 or 4 RL02 drives I am parting out. I also have Q-bus, Unibus, and > PDP8 controllers. If you have any interest, please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jan 6 23:01:16 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 00:01:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! In-Reply-To: <45A07455.1090104@cox.net> References: <459DCDF6.4000200@msu.edu> <45A07455.1090104@cox.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Bryan K. Blackburn wrote: > eBay item # 230051400851 > > The effort that must have went into this project...! Detailed construction > photos here: > > http://www.lostinspacerobot.com/newsletter.html > > I confess that I have always wanted one of these! :) I have no connection > with the seller etc. & etc. I've been a member of the B9 Robot Builders Club since I started working on my own replica, years back. I'm less than half way through construction, though, being easily distracted by classic computer projects. :-) The amount of research done (and available) on this particular robot is incredible, including direct pulls from some of the original molds. Club members can download detailed scale CAD drawings of the entire robot. You can either buy parts or make your own, or buy an assembled unit as you've seen. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 6 23:34:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 22:34:05 -0700 Subject: 2.5GB bigfoot drives on dovebid In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 06 Jan 2007 16:03:04 -0800. <459FC838.14212.BADB3A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: There are also lots of other lots for sale on dovebid with collections of hard drives... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jan 6 23:22:54 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 23:22:54 -0600 Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! In-Reply-To: References: <459DCDF6.4000200@msu.edu> <45A07455.1090104@cox.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070106231402.06727f10@mail> At 11:01 PM 1/6/2007, you wrote: > I've been a member of the B9 Robot Builders Club since I started working on my own replica, years back. I'm less than half way through construction, though, being easily distracted by classic computer projects. :-) Back in late 1998, my buddy Sheldon Leemon (author of "Mapping the C-64") won the grand prize in an online sweepstakes. The prize was a full-size promotional version of the robot from the remake of "Lost in Space". It had been touring the USA and Japan. Doesn't look quite the same: http://www.robotoys.com/lis99.jpg 600 pounds, New Line Cinema valued it at $4,500. We debated what we might do with it, never coming to any good conclusions. I was tempted to store it in my barn. He never picked it up. It sat in a shipping yard for months. I think it eventually started running up charges and was sent back in mid-1999. I wonder where it went! - John From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jan 6 23:46:28 2007 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 21:46:28 -0800 Subject: Upcoming Scrounge, Southern Cal. Message-ID: <200701062146280300.045F0D99@192.168.42.129> This is being posted to: TekScopes, HP, TestGear, and CCTech lists. Fellow techies, I'm going to have a day or so of opportunity to do some serious scrounging in the southern California region, specifically around Anaheim and vicinity, coming up in May of this year. Being that I haven't been near the area since 1993, I could really use some pointers on who's who in the electronic surplus arena that would be worth a look. My primary interests are in test gear (usually RF and telecommunications, but I keep an open mind), specialized hand tools for connector crimping (both mil-spec and commercial), and "legacy" telephone equipment from the Bell System/Western Electric heyday. So... Let the suggestions fly! ;-) Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jan 7 00:38:27 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 22:38:27 -0800 Subject: Free stuff near Seattle WA Message-ID: More may come up, but here's the list for now 1x DEC DSSI tri-link connector 12-39921-02 Used to connect DSSI busses to beasties like HSD controllers. 1x either a Sun SPARCstation 5/110 256MB or a Tatung COMPstation 20 (SPARCstation 20 clone) 1x SM40, 128MB RAM. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 7 01:18:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 23:18:17 -0800 Subject: Sun plastics In-Reply-To: <20070107044928.67450.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070107044928.67450.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45A02E39.10091.D3C295C@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jan 2007 at 20:49, Chris M wrote: > try something less potent. Testors, 2 part epoxy, > gorilla glue, Goop... I'll second the gorilla (polyurethane) glue. I use Pro Bond, but it's basically the same stuff--sticks to almost anything without dissolving it. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 7 01:38:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 23:38:20 -0800 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <200701070341.l073fPxs013472@floodgap.com> References: <459FDC06.9867.BFB122F@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 6, 7 05:27:34 pm", <200701070341.l073fPxs013472@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45A032EC.7614.D4E80DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jan 2007 at 19:41, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > So I don't see what's so restrictive about the Mac requirements at all, > frankly. You're right, it's a matter of small degree. Mac OS 8 = 1997; Windows 95 = 1995. Intel 80486 = 1989; PPC 601 = 1992. It's pretty much a moot point anyway--everyone's going to be x86 by-and-by. Cheers, Chuck From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Jan 7 03:11:39 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 09:11:39 +0000 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 06 Jan 2007 13:21:41 PST." <459FA265.22439.B19F652@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200701070911.JAA01896@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Chuck Guzis said: > I found a version of Mozilla 1.3.1 that runs on it at > http://www.wamcom.org. It seems to be adequate for casual browsing. Try iCab too: http://www.icab.de/ There are a few shell programs avaliable for MacOs 7,8 and 9 if you really _must_ have a prompt, such as MacShell. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sun Jan 7 04:12:40 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 11:12:40 +0100 Subject: Sun E450 server officially vintage In-Reply-To: References: <006001c72e7b$17f6bdd0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <459BF207.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1168164760.11603.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 14:43 -0800, Eric J Korpela wrote: > On 1/3/07, woodelf wrote: > > Jay West wrote: > > > Just because a computer is 10 years old does not mean it's on topic. So > > > no, it's not officially vintage ;) > > We were thinking about auctioning off the original E450 that was the > SETI at home server as a fund raiser. (Actually the original server is > an Ultra-10 sitting on my desk. ellie aka jill nee sagan). > Unfortunately university rules don't allow departments or groups to > sell things and use the proceeds. University salvage sells them and > the university gets the money. :( How about donating them to a relevant institution, like the CHM? Just another E450 is unlikely to fetch much at a salvage auction, just like a U10... -Tore :) From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Jan 6 13:24:36 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 19:24:36 +0000 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <20070106181908.45982.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070106181908.45982.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <459FF774.3020304@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: > ...and Macs only put out video as theyre set to, at > the cable-vid card junction. Youll need a doohicky to > initialize it 2 a proper vid mode 4 such a display. Pardon? Gordon From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Jan 7 02:06:22 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 08:06:22 -0000 Subject: not quite on topic but, classic analogue satellite tv decoding boxes Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393D3E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hold on!!! I have a use for FM analogue Sat RX's.. We use them for amateur television (a branch of Amateur Radio) I'll take any you have and if they have manual tuning so much the better!! Rod Smallwood Email rodsmallwood at btconnect.com -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 06 January 2007 00:01 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: not quite on topic but, classic analogue satellite tv decoding boxes Witchy wrote: > Hello folks, > > I've got a pair of old UK SKY TV boxen (1997 era) that are pretty > useless as analogue SKY TV was switched off in 2001; can the hardware > be used for anything else or is it pretty much paperweight material? Paperweight, I would have thought - I've never heard of them being able to do anything 'clever' (unlike, say, some of Acorn's set top boxes which do resemble a computer closely enough to fire up a web browser on, talk to a few very specific hardware add-ons etc.). I doubt there's even many useful components that can be salvaged as it'll likely all be surface mount stuff and big shiny screened silver boxes inside. cheers Jules From mike at ambientdesign.com Sat Jan 6 22:33:12 2007 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 17:33:12 +1300 Subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070106134710.P12278@shell.lmi.net> <459FC71F.8636.BA9695C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <006601c73214$f0f0dc00$3c00a8c0@fluke> Hi all, I'm going to be in San Francisco for almost a week, from the 8th to the 14th, and I was hoping to find some Atari 800 bits to bring back to New Zealand with me. Specifically, I'm hoping to find an 810 drive or two, but other bits, or even a spare machine, wouldn't go amiss! Also, some Apple II or II+ mainboards would be very handy. Please let me know if you have anything available, by personal reply might be best? OT: Will be at MacWorld Expo promoting our product - www.artrage.com . If anyone on this list's going to be there, free to drop by and say hi! Ask for Mike, or be ready for confused looks when ranting about old hardware. Mike From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jan 7 06:34:42 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 09:34:42 -0300 Subject: My second Mac References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070106134710.P12278@shell.lmi.net> <459FC71F.8636.BA9695C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <088e01c73258$6ee6f890$f0fea8c0@alpha> > One thing I didn't expect is the involved model and OS requirements > for various bits of software. I thought that the idea was that one > didn't have to engage in the upgrading game on a Mac like PC people > do. From what I've seen thus far, if anything, the Mac world seems > to be almost worse in that respect. Macs are very stabile machines, for their era and software version. This is an advantage - doesn't lock-up as much as windows - but is an advantage - there aren't much things you can do with a classic mac beyond showing it up. I have a Mac 128 which is a nice conversation piece - you can do just nothing on that. There are no network, hard disk or like ports. But it is a nice puter anyways :) I have a 9500 upgraded to a G3 and I'm desperate in need of more memory for it, I'd exchange that for some exclusive brazilian gear if someone is interested. From cheri-post at web.de Sun Jan 7 07:06:49 2007 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 14:06:49 +0100 Subject: 2.5GB bigfoot drives on dovebid Message-ID: <1731575786@web.de> > On 6 Jan 2007 at 16:40, Richard wrote: > > > Wasn't there some discussion recently looking for < 10 GB drives? > > > > There's a bunch of 2.5GB drives on dovebid right now... > > Quantum Bigfoot--bleah. Miserable things. Yeah, I would'nt rely on Bigfoot drives, too. They are *very* low-cost and so is the quality and therefore reliability. We had several of these which gave up work quite quickly. One should try to avoid them. Regards, Pierre _______________________________________________________________________ Viren-Scan f?r Ihren PC! Jetzt f?r jeden. Sofort, online und kostenlos. Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jan 7 07:51:16 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 07:51:16 -0600 Subject: 2.5GB bigfoot drives on dovebid In-Reply-To: <459FC838.14212.BADB3A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <459FC838.14212.BADB3A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45A0FAD4.1010407@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The local computer recycler is selling 3.5" tested-and-scrubbed 4GB > SCSI or IDE (take your pick), drives for a buck each; 6GB ones are > two bucks. Smaller ones are name-a-price. They've got boxes and > boxes of the things. I suspect you're lucky, there. The local place here won't sell anything that hasn't been wiped and tested either, which means it just isn't worth their while for anything under 30GB as the demand's too low to justify the time taken. The lower-capacity drives go straight to the crusher, no questions asked (same with entire classic machines, sadly). I suspect that's typical of most recycling places, as even if they're prepared to sell drives "as seen", they're still pretty much obliged to wipe any data off them if they want to keep their bigger "suppliers" happy. (30GB IDE drives are a tenner, and 36GB SCSI drives are either 15 or 20 pounds I think - which is probably a pretty reasonable for a soak-tested used drive) To Jim: drop an email to a few local companies that are likely to make use of recycling facilities; some of them will probably be friendly enough to let you know who they use. cheers Jules From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 09:40:30 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 07:40:30 -0800 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay In-Reply-To: <000001c731ed$caf0fe30$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org> <013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1e1fc3e90701051245w133d45abxd6775fc00c19438d@mail.gmail.com> <012401c73119$fb00de30$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1e1fc3e90701051534l7df2c326m314ce92776df6e02@mail.gmail.com> <000001c731ed$caf0fe30$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90701070740u51deb084jabb4ec1996cfbffc@mail.gmail.com> On 1/6/07, Jay West wrote: > That may or may not help, as "12566" means lots of different things and > doesn't describe an exact board - GRD TRU, + TRU, Microcircuit Interface, > Printer interface... all slightly different variations of the boards > generically marked 12566. In other words, 12566 is not specific enough, you > need the rest of the letters & numbers after it to know exactly what it is. > Some of the variations are just different wirings (and in some cases I think > a different chip or two) giving different electrical characteristics but the > boards look almost identical to the naked eye. The 12566 boards that I > desire, don't look anything like the "normal" 12566 boards. The ones I want > are labled 12566-60032 and have boatloads of dip jumpers on them, no solder > jumpers. > I didn't realize there was much difference between the boards other than the obvious GRD TRUE vs +TRUE versions. I checked and I have some 12566-80024 +TRUE, some 12566-80024 GRD TRUE, but only one 12566-60032 Microcircuit. What makes that version specially suited to your applications? I also have some 12551-8001 Relay Out boards and then some 11629-6001 44 BIT GPO boards for which I cannot find any information. -Glen From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 7 11:01:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 09:01:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted Message-ID: <20070107170101.12232.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> I take it the 800 was the successor to the 400, the 1st unit my fingers ever typed on. Lol at typed on. You needed a ball peen hammer to do any serious coding. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 7 11:11:15 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 09:11:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: My second Mac Message-ID: <20070107171115.90662.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> the stark reality is Im not all that confident using the term dongle. I think they may have been called that, but Im not sure :(. Some had dials by the way. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pt at new.rr.com Sun Jan 7 11:46:36 2007 From: pt at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 11:46:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: microprocessors in my vax 3800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jan 2007, 9000 VAX wrote: > Today I pulled out the boards in my vax 3800 and I found 7 microprocessors > besides the CVAX. They are, > 2x 68000, 8096, 80186, 2x 8086, Z80. > > Just a little discovery to share with you. > I had noticed similar with XMI and BI boards, where one might see combination of a couple of processors including a VAX chip along with an AMD x86 clone or a 68k or Zilog processor. I remember reading a description of the 'nexus' concept in some DEC unix sources which seemed to indicate a prediliction for 'smart' boards. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 7 12:00:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 10:00:26 -0800 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <200701070911.JAA01896@citadel.metropolis.local> References: >, <200701070911.JAA01896@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <45A0C4BA.26258.F880D5C@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2007 at 9:11, Stan Barr wrote: > Try iCab too: http://www.icab.de/ I saw iCab, but note that it's a $$$ product and I'm just too cheap to buy it. :) > There are a few shell programs avaliable for MacOs 7,8 and 9 if you > really _must_ have a prompt, such as MacShell. Another personal failing--somehow, without a text-based command language, a computer just doesn't feel like a computer to the grey mush between my ears. :) Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jan 7 12:10:39 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 10:10:39 -0800 Subject: My Second Mac Message-ID: > Chuck wrote > On 6 Jan 2007 at 19:41, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> >> So I don't see what's so restrictive about the Mac requirements at >> all, >> frankly. > > You're right, it's a matter of small degree. Mac OS 8 = 1997; > Windows 95 = 1995. Intel 80486 = 1989; PPC 601 = 1992. It's pretty > much a moot point anyway--everyone's going to be x86 by-and-by. > > Cheers, > Chuck > My guess has to do with processors: i80486 binaries can run just fine on Pentium+ systems. The software probably can work just fine at 68040 speeds, but then when run on PowerPC systems you have the emulation overhead which drops speeds to around a IIci (25MHz 68030, think Sun-3) on a 8100/80 (80MHz PPC601) Some companies didn't want the bother of maintaining two versions (68k and PPC, especially after the PPC machines had been out a year or two), so they would compile PPC only- hence the higher system requirements. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Jan 7 12:12:33 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 10:12:33 -0800 Subject: Use of HCL to dissolve severe corrosion from NiCad or Alkaline Batteries or oxidation Message-ID: <200701071012.33773.lbickley@bickleywest.com> In response to an offlist question, here's a bit more info on HCL use: 1. I've only been able to buy gallon sized containers of the 30% HCL (Muriatic Acid). That is very unwieldily to handle. A polyethelene containter with a small "spout" (available at drugstores) is an easy solution. Just be careful when transferring the acid from the gallon container to the poly container - use a poly funnel - HCL is "nasty" stuff. 2. Use as little acid as possible on a board/module/motherboard. Before applying the acid I look over the board - and discover the corroded/oxidized components and apply the acid directly to the components. The acid will flow to other, non-oxidized components, but it won't hurt them. A toothbrush can be used to scrub stubborn corrosion - but I've found it is rarely needed. 3. After applying the acid, rinse it off as soon as the "fizzling" stops. Use plenty of cold water to eliminate all traces of the acid. Then use a final rinse of distilled water. 4. I avoid putting acid on adjustable, semi-sealed components, such as potentiometers, variable capacitors, enclosed switches, etc. If they are badly corroded - replace them. 5. I use a hair dryer set at medium-heat/high-speed to dry the board and under chips, etc. Drying will also eliminate any traces of residual acid that may have been left behind. (HCL turns to a gas when it "drys out"). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jan 7 12:23:19 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 10:23:19 -0800 Subject: From another list: 4D-series (POWER & Professional) SGI gear Message-ID: <545227bd0b86df0b59e9ee5daa69a4b4@valleyimplants.com> Can't remember if I sent this- found it on a different list and I can forward mail > EDIT Jan,7: No one's interested into old stuff anymore? If no one > claims them they will go in the trash real soon! It'd be a shame... If > you're not interested in taking them all there's loads of perfectly > working boards, IP7s, IO4s with plenty of SCSI, GTX graphic set, power > supplies, backplanes, skins, etc, etc. Anyway let me know. > > > Hi all, > > I have a few older Silicon Graphics systems up for grabs if anyone is > interested. There's three 4D Predator racks, a deskside 4D/70GT and a > Challenge XL. All the machines are complete except for the Challenge > which is missing the CPU and memory boards. Except for that everything > is there. They also come with a few boxes of parts, cables, keyboards > and such. A 17" SGI monitor is also part of the lot. > > Pictures here: > http://web.newsguy.com/AlexPhotos/sgi.html > > Everything is free if you take them as is. If you only want boards or > other parts, I'll charge a small fee for the packaging material and > for my time. > The machines are located in Montreal, Canada. Looks like the Challenge might not have processor boards, but the other systems seem to. The 4D/70 is a Twin Tower From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 12:58:32 2007 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:58:32 +0000 Subject: rt-11 Documentation Message-ID: <26c11a640701071058y67f48df8n7d8f93cd2062a4be@mail.gmail.com> I'm sure someone on the list asked a while back, but I couldn't find it. I have the complete rt-11 docs printed out. They are too heavy to post but can be picked up from here (Soho UK). Dan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 7 13:20:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 11:20:22 -0800 Subject: Use of HCL to dissolve severe corrosion from NiCad or Alkaline Batteries or oxidation In-Reply-To: <200701071012.33773.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200701071012.33773.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <45A0D776.5048.FD142E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2007 at 10:12, Lyle Bickley wrote: > 1. I've only been able to buy gallon sized containers of the 30% HCL (Muriatic > Acid). That is very unwieldily to handle. A polyethelene containter with a > small "spout" (available at drugstores) is an easy solution. Just be careful > when transferring the acid from the gallon container to the poly container - > use a poly funnel - HCL is "nasty" stuff. Another caution--DO NOT STORE THE CONTAINER IN YOUR WORKSHOP OR WHEREVER YOU KEEP YOUR EQUIPMENT! Muriatic acid is hydrogen chloride gas dissolved in water and tends to "fume". Which means that if the cap on the container is slightly loose or the container is cracked, you'll be in for an eventual surprise. I kept a gallon of muriatic stored in my workshop and thought the cap was screwed on tightly (it wasn't). After about 2 weeks, I noted that all of my cast-iron shop equpment was coated with a fine dappling of rust. My HCl is now stored in a weatherproof container out-of-doors. I can't imagine what such fumes might do to the innards of a disk drive. For a somewhat tamer substitute, one might try sulfamic acid--a powder dissolved in water and normally used for cleaning masonry (as is muriatic acid). You can often find it at stores that deal in ceramic tile supplies. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 13:28:59 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 14:28:59 -0500 Subject: Use of HCL to dissolve severe corrosion from NiCad or Alkaline Batteries or oxidation In-Reply-To: <45A0D776.5048.FD142E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200701071012.33773.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <45A0D776.5048.FD142E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45A149FB.2080708@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Jan 2007 at 10:12, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> 1. I've only been able to buy gallon sized containers of the 30% HCL (Muriatic >> Acid). That is very unwieldily to handle. A polyethelene containter with a >> small "spout" (available at drugstores) is an easy solution. Just be careful >> when transferring the acid from the gallon container to the poly container - >> use a poly funnel - HCL is "nasty" stuff. > > Another caution--DO NOT STORE THE CONTAINER IN YOUR WORKSHOP OR > WHEREVER YOU KEEP YOUR EQUIPMENT! Muriatic acid is hydrogen chloride > gas dissolved in water and tends to "fume". Which means that if the > cap on the container is slightly loose or the container is cracked, > you'll be in for an eventual surprise. > > I kept a gallon of muriatic stored in my workshop and thought the cap > was screwed on tightly (it wasn't). After about 2 weeks, I noted > that all of my cast-iron shop equpment was coated with a fine > dappling of rust. My HCl is now stored in a weatherproof container > out-of-doors. I can't imagine what such fumes might do to the > innards of a disk drive. > > For a somewhat tamer substitute, one might try sulfamic acid--a > powder dissolved in water and normally used for cleaning masonry (as > is muriatic acid). You can often find it at stores that deal in > ceramic tile supplies. You can store hydrochloric acid dilute without worrying about it fuming. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 13:30:07 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 14:30:07 -0500 Subject: Use of HCL to dissolve severe corrosion from NiCad or Alkaline Batteries or oxidation In-Reply-To: <45A0D776.5048.FD142E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200701071012.33773.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <45A0D776.5048.FD142E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45A14A3F.5070704@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Jan 2007 at 10:12, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> 1. I've only been able to buy gallon sized containers of the 30% HCL (Muriatic >> Acid). That is very unwieldily to handle. A polyethelene containter with a >> small "spout" (available at drugstores) is an easy solution. Just be careful >> when transferring the acid from the gallon container to the poly container - >> use a poly funnel - HCL is "nasty" stuff. > > Another caution--DO NOT STORE THE CONTAINER IN YOUR WORKSHOP OR > WHEREVER YOU KEEP YOUR EQUIPMENT! Muriatic acid is hydrogen chloride > gas dissolved in water and tends to "fume". Which means that if the > cap on the container is slightly loose or the container is cracked, > you'll be in for an eventual surprise. > > I kept a gallon of muriatic stored in my workshop and thought the cap > was screwed on tightly (it wasn't). After about 2 weeks, I noted > that all of my cast-iron shop equpment was coated with a fine > dappling of rust. My HCl is now stored in a weatherproof container > out-of-doors. I can't imagine what such fumes might do to the > innards of a disk drive. > > For a somewhat tamer substitute, one might try sulfamic acid--a > powder dissolved in water and normally used for cleaning masonry (as > is muriatic acid). You can often find it at stores that deal in > ceramic tile supplies. I don't believe it'll fume when stored under mineral oil too. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 7 13:36:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 11:36:29 -0800 Subject: Use of HCL to dissolve severe corrosion from NiCad or Alkaline Batteries or oxidation In-Reply-To: <45A149FB.2080708@gmail.com> References: <200701071012.33773.lbickley@bickleywest.com>, <45A0D776.5048.FD142E1@cclist.sydex.com>, <45A149FB.2080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45A0DB3D.20848.FE0028B@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2007 at 14:28, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > You can store hydrochloric acid dilute without worrying about it fuming. But, but--didn't the original post state that the 30% stuff was required for the application? 30% HCl does fume. Cheers, Chuck From frajkp at netscape.net Sun Jan 7 13:35:56 2007 From: frajkp at netscape.net (frajkp at netscape.net) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 14:35:56 -0500 Subject: Old D.E.C. Software and Hardware Manuals Available Message-ID: <8C900AA2FC35A02-14A4-2092@WEBMAIL-MC08.sysops.aol.com> Hi, I have a few old Digital Equipment Corp. manuals. If anyone is interested in them they are yours for shipping costs (I'm in Ontario, Canada). They are as follows: - DEC System 10 - Mathematical Languages Handbook - DEC System 10 - Assembly Language Handbook - DEC System 10 - Users Handbook - KW11-L line time clock manual - ME11-L core memory system manual - Decscope User's Manual - RK611/RK06 Disk Susbsystem user's manual - DR11-C general device interface manual - AR11 User's guide - DL11-W serial iine unit/real time clock option maintenance manual - DL11 asynchronous line interface manual - RK11-D and RK11-E moving head disk drive controller manual - Rk611/RK06 disk subsystem installation manual - DZ11 user's guide Thanks ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 7 13:40:07 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 11:40:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Use of HCL to dissolve severe corrosion from NiCad or Alkaline Batteries or oxidation Message-ID: <20070107194007.14964.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> can you buy it in powder form? You mean you all apply hcl to a circuit board??? Aint there a less caustic substance for the job? --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 7 Jan 2007 at 10:12, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > > >> 1. I've only been able to buy gallon sized containers of the 30% HCL (Muriatic > >> Acid). That is very unwieldily to handle. A polyethelene containter with a > >> small "spout" (available at drugstores) is an easy solution. Just be careful > >> when transferring the acid from the gallon container to the poly container - > >> use a poly funnel - HCL is "nasty" stuff. > > > > Another caution--DO NOT STORE THE CONTAINER IN YOUR WORKSHOP OR > > WHEREVER YOU KEEP YOUR EQUIPMENT! Muriatic acid is hydrogen chloride > > gas dissolved in water and tends to "fume". Which means that if the > > cap on the container is slightly loose or the container is cracked, > > you'll be in for an eventual surprise. > > > > I kept a gallon of muriatic stored in my workshop and thought the cap > > was screwed on tightly (it wasn't). After about 2 weeks, I noted > > that all of my cast-iron shop equpment was coated with a fine > > dappling of rust. My HCl is now stored in a weatherproof container > > out-of-doors. I can't imagine what such fumes might do to the > > innards of a disk drive. > > > > For a somewhat tamer substitute, one might try sulfamic acid--a > > powder dissolved in water and normally used for cleaning masonry (as > > is muriatic acid). You can often find it at stores that deal in > > ceramic tile supplies. > > You can store hydrochloric acid dilute without worrying about it fuming. > > Peace... Sridhar __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 13:44:27 2007 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 20:44:27 +0100 Subject: Old D.E.C. Software and Hardware Manuals Available In-Reply-To: <8C900AA2FC35A02-14A4-2092@WEBMAIL-MC08.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C900AA2FC35A02-14A4-2092@WEBMAIL-MC08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi, I' ll take them all. Thanks St?phane On 1/7/07, frajkp at netscape.net wrote: > > Hi, I have a few old Digital Equipment Corp. manuals. > If anyone is interested in them they are yours for shipping costs (I'm in > Ontario, Canada). > They are as follows: > > - DEC System 10 - Mathematical Languages Handbook > - DEC System 10 - Assembly Language Handbook > - DEC System 10 - Users Handbook > - KW11-L line time clock manual > - ME11-L core memory system manual > - Decscope User's Manual > - RK611/RK06 Disk Susbsystem user's manual > - DR11-C general device interface manual > - AR11 User's guide > - DL11-W serial iine unit/real time clock option maintenance manual > - DL11 asynchronous line interface manual > - RK11-D and RK11-E moving head disk drive controller manual > - Rk611/RK06 disk subsystem installation manual > - DZ11 user's guide > > Thanks > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading > spam and email virus protection. > -- Stephane Paris, France. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 7 13:52:58 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 11:52:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? Message-ID: <20070107195258.23448.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> not seemingly likely w/the current crop of usb units, but would it be possible to get a 5.25 to work in say an older lt w/an integral 3.5? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 7 13:56:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 11:56:46 -0800 Subject: Use of HCL to dissolve severe corrosion from NiCad or Alkaline Batteries or oxidation In-Reply-To: <20070107194007.14964.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070107194007.14964.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45A0DFFE.23018.FF29332@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2007 at 11:40, Chris M wrote: > can you buy it in powder form? You mean you all apply > hcl to a circuit board??? Aint there a less caustic > substance for the job? I've not tried it, but you might look at a retail product called "CLR"--it's a calcium, lime and rust remover/cleaner. Available in quart sizes at most home improvement and some supermarkets. I don't know if it's strong enough for the job, however. Cheers, Chuck From dmabry at mich.com Sun Jan 7 14:41:42 2007 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 15:41:42 -0500 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <20070107195258.23448.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070107195258.23448.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45A15B06.50007@mich.com> Chris M wrote: >not seemingly likely w/the current crop of usb units, >but would it be possible to get a 5.25 to work in say >an older lt w/an integral 3.5? > > Not sure exactly what you are asking, but I have a few Zenith SupersPort series of laptops. The have internal 3.5" floppy drives and a port for an external floppy drive. Zenith sold an external 5.25" floppy drive, 360K variety, for them. I have also made a 1.44MB version 5.25" floppy drive work from that port. Does that answer your question? From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun Jan 7 14:50:36 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 15:50:36 -0500 Subject: garbled display In-Reply-To: <452825.57116.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070107154519.039430f0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: >actually rows and columns of blocks of ascii chars, >some blinking. To which Im greeted upon switching on a >Tandy 2000. Typically what does this indicate? Darned near anything, but the first things I'd do is: 1) crack the case and make sure there's no "foreign objects" in there that shouldn't be. 2) Whilst I'm in there, I'd pull and reseat any chips (RAM, ROM, CPU, etc.) that are in sockets, and/or cards (Video, interface, etc.) in slots. You could also remove any cards unnecessary to the basic function of the machine during testing. 3) Also pull and reseat any cables (floppy, etc.) that exist. Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Jan 7 14:56:17 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 12:56:17 -0800 Subject: Use of HCL to dissolve severe corrosion from NiCad or Alkaline Batteries or oxidation In-Reply-To: <20070107194007.14964.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070107194007.14964.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200701071256.18162.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 07 January 2007 11:40, Chris M wrote: > can you buy it in powder form? You mean you all apply > hcl to a circuit board??? Aint there a less caustic > substance for the job? HCL is an acid, not a caustic. Caustic is strongly alkaline - as in Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic Soda), Calcium Oxide (Caustic Lime), etc. Leaking NiCad and Alkaline batteries have a very strong alkaline content which can dissolve traces, edge connectors, components, etc. One uses an acid such as HCL to dissolve the strong hydroxide and other products of the alkaline "corrosion". Cheers, Lyle > --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 7 Jan 2007 at 10:12, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > >> 1. I've only been able to buy gallon sized > > containers of the 30% HCL (Muriatic > > > >> Acid). That is very unwieldily to handle. A > > polyethelene containter with a > > > >> small "spout" (available at drugstores) is an > > easy solution. Just be careful > > > >> when transferring the acid from the gallon > > container to the poly container - > > > >> use a poly funnel - HCL is "nasty" stuff. > > > > > > Another caution--DO NOT STORE THE CONTAINER IN > > YOUR WORKSHOP OR > > > > WHEREVER YOU KEEP YOUR EQUIPMENT! Muriatic acid > > is hydrogen chloride > > > > gas dissolved in water and tends to "fume". Which > > means that if the > > > > cap on the container is slightly loose or the > > container is cracked, > > > > you'll be in for an eventual surprise. > > > > > > I kept a gallon of muriatic stored in my workshop > > and thought the cap > > > > was screwed on tightly (it wasn't). After about 2 > > weeks, I noted > > > > that all of my cast-iron shop equpment was coated > > with a fine > > > > dappling of rust. My HCl is now stored in a > > weatherproof container > > > > out-of-doors. I can't imagine what such fumes > > might do to the > > > > innards of a disk drive. > > > > > > For a somewhat tamer substitute, one might try > > sulfamic acid--a > > > > powder dissolved in water and normally used for > > cleaning masonry (as > > > > is muriatic acid). You can often find it at > > stores that deal in > > > > ceramic tile supplies. > > > > You can store hydrochloric acid dilute without > > worrying about it fuming. > > > Peace... Sridhar > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 7 14:56:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 12:56:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: My Second Mac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070107125111.M50840@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 7 Jan 2007, Scott Quinn wrote: > My guess has to do with processors: i80486 binaries can run just fine > on Pentium+ systems. so can 8088 binaries. (With occasional exceptions that don't typically show up in common usage (such as PUSH SP)) But not all Pentium+ binaries will run on 8088, or even i80486. There seemed to have been a cultural difference between Motorola and intel. Motorola would design each major generation from scratch, thus producing a much better processor, but without legacy software. intel, OTOH, would bend over backwards to try to maintain 4004 compatibility. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 7 15:09:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 13:09:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? Message-ID: <863759.87842.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> no actually. I should have specified no older then a 486. For creating/dumping images and whatnot. Some early lt floppies were just slender versions of dt units __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 7 15:19:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 13:19:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: garbled display Message-ID: <20070107211943.83700.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> it only helps if youre going to swing by and unseat the 80186 from its bizarre cage. I aint touching one ever again. But thanks all the same Roger :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jan 7 16:05:11 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:05:11 -0800 Subject: My Second Mac Message-ID: <41411fa87d3e31c0477039986aa96a9b@valleyimplants.com> > On Sun, 7 Jan 2007, Scott Quinn wrote: > > My guess has to do with processors: i80486 binaries can run just fine > > on Pentium+ systems. > > so can 8088 binaries. (With occasional exceptions that don't typically > show up in common usage (such as PUSH SP)) > But not all Pentium+ binaries will run on 8088, or even i80486. > > > There seemed to have been a cultural difference between Motorola and > intel. > > Motorola would design each major generation from scratch, thus > producing a > much better processor, but without legacy software. > > intel, OTOH, would bend over backwards to try to maintain 4004 > compatibility. We're talking about two slightly different things here, though- 68000 (while it did not have provisions for easily running 6800 code) had a common-mode so that programs built on the 68040 could run on the 68000, but you can also have code that requires instructions (or other things) added on later 68000-series processors, similar to Intel (variable 286-style segments, the copy-on-write provision of the 80486, etc.). The transition between 68000 and PPC was more like the Intel gap between the x86 and the 960 - they are completely different processors with no common heritage (the common heritage piece was provided by Apple in firmware). I haven't worked with them, but AFAIK the new embedded versions of the 68000 (ColdFire?) maintain the tradition of working with earlier 68ks (except in a few cases). From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jan 7 16:14:24 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 16:14:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! Message-ID: <200701072214.l07MEMe5071502@keith.ezwind.net> --- John Foust wrote: **>> snip <<** > > Back in late 1998, my buddy Sheldon Leemon (author > of "Mapping the C-64") > won the grand prize in an online sweepstakes. The > prize was a full-size > promotional version of the robot from the remake o f > "Lost in Space". > It had been touring the USA and Japan. Doesn't lo ok > quite the same: > > http://www.robotoys.com/lis99.jpg > > 600 pounds, New Line Cinema valued it at $4,500. We > debated what we > might do with it, never coming to any good > conclusions. I was tempted > to store it in my barn. He never picked it up. I t > sat in a shipping > yard for months. I think it eventually started > running up charges and > was sent back in mid-1999. I wonder where it went ! > > - John > Urghh!!!! Why would you want that piece of trash?!!! Sorry, but I think it's the worst designed robot in the history of films! Robbie the robot (Forbidden Planet, 3 or 4 eps of Lost In Space 60's tv series, background in Gremlins 1 (or 2?) and even in a Columbo film from the 70's!), Gort (Day The Earth Stood Still), Maximillion (The Black Hole) and more modern robot's such as Robocop, ED-209 and Caine (all from the Robocop films), plus the T-1000 (Terminator), are much better designed to be menacing and/or cool looking. When I saw the one from the Lost In Space film (from 90's) I just laughed. To be honest, going from the picture, it looks like a cross between the robot's from Short Circuit and Caine from Robocop 2. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 16:20:14 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 17:20:14 -0500 Subject: My Second Mac In-Reply-To: <41411fa87d3e31c0477039986aa96a9b@valleyimplants.com> References: <41411fa87d3e31c0477039986aa96a9b@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <45A1721E.7010208@gmail.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > We're talking about two slightly different things here, though- 68000 > (while it did not have provisions for easily running 6800 code) had a > common-mode so that programs built on the 68040 could run on the 68000, > but you can also have code that requires instructions (or other things) > added on later 68000-series processors, similar to Intel (variable > 286-style segments, the copy-on-write provision of the 80486, etc.). The > transition between 68000 and PPC was more like the Intel gap between the > x86 and the 960 - they are completely different processors with no > common heritage (the common heritage piece was provided by Apple in > firmware). I haven't worked with them, but AFAIK the new embedded > versions of the 68000 (ColdFire?) maintain the tradition of working with > earlier 68ks (except in a few cases). Earlier revisions of ColdFire weren't compatible with older 68K. The latest revisions are now compatible enough to work as replacements for the 68060. If memory serves, the ColdFire chips that work for replacing an '060 are latest two revisions. I've seen a ColdFire upgrade board for the Amiga 4000. It's blazing fast. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 16:21:28 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 17:21:28 -0500 Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! In-Reply-To: <200701072214.l07MEMe5071502@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200701072214.l07MEMe5071502@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45A17268.8020408@gmail.com> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Why would you want that piece of trash?!!! > Sorry, but I think it's the worst designed robot > in the history of films! > Robbie the robot (Forbidden Planet, 3 or 4 eps > of Lost In Space 60's tv series, background in > Gremlins 1 (or 2?) and even in a Columbo film > from the 70's!), Gort (Day The Earth Stood > Still), Maximillion (The Black Hole) and more > modern robot's such as Robocop, ED-209 and > Caine (all from the Robocop films), plus the > T-1000 (Terminator), are much better designed > to be menacing and/or cool looking. Are you sure you're not talking about the T-800? The T-1000 is the liquid-metal jobbie. Peace... Sridhar From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Jan 7 16:24:02 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 17:24:02 -0500 Subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted In-Reply-To: <006601c73214$f0f0dc00$3c00a8c0@fluke> References: <459F7114.10599.A595038@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070106134710.P12278@shell.lmi.net> <459FC71F.8636.BA9695C@cclist.sydex.com> <006601c73214$f0f0dc00$3c00a8c0@fluke> Message-ID: <45A17302.7040008@atarimuseum.com> You may want to swing by Weird Stuff if you don't mind taking a bit of a ride, they occassionally have some Atari stuff, there are always used computer sales going on all over the Bay area and if you're willing to make a day of it, I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for and for the most part, at decent prices. Curt Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm going to be in San Francisco for almost a week, from the 8th to the > 14th, and I was hoping to find some Atari 800 bits to bring back to New > Zealand with me. Specifically, I'm hoping to find an 810 drive or two, but > other bits, or even a spare machine, wouldn't go amiss! Also, some Apple II > or II+ mainboards would be very handy. Please let me know if you have > anything available, by personal reply might be best? > > OT: Will be at MacWorld Expo promoting our product - www.artrage.com . If > anyone on this list's going to be there, free to drop by and say hi! Ask for > Mike, or be ready for confused looks when ranting about old hardware. > > Mike > > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Jan 7 16:27:48 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 17:27:48 -0500 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING><1e1fc3e90701051245w133d45abxd6775fc00c19438d@mail.gmail.com><012401c73119$fb00de30$6500a8c0@BILLING><1e1fc3e90701051534l7df2c326m314ce92776df6e02@mail.gmail.com><000001c731ed$caf0fe30$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1e1fc3e90701070740u51deb084jabb4ec1996cfbffc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005401c732ab$10b67d60$0100a8c0@screamer> The 12551 relay board is a great item. You get 16 isolated contacts, on opposite sides of the PCB. Write a word to the I/O slot and you close the relay contacts for each bit set. There are also slightly complicated signals for the command and flag flip flops. I can get you the pin-outs and specifics on these if needed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:40 AM Subject: Re: HP HP-2117F on ebay > On 1/6/07, Jay West wrote: >> That may or may not help, as "12566" means lots of different things and >> doesn't describe an exact board - GRD TRU, + TRU, Microcircuit Interface, >> Printer interface... all slightly different variations of the boards >> generically marked 12566. In other words, 12566 is not specific enough, >> you >> need the rest of the letters & numbers after it to know exactly what it >> is. >> Some of the variations are just different wirings (and in some cases I >> think >> a different chip or two) giving different electrical characteristics but >> the >> boards look almost identical to the naked eye. The 12566 boards that I >> desire, don't look anything like the "normal" 12566 boards. The ones I >> want >> are labled 12566-60032 and have boatloads of dip jumpers on them, no >> solder >> jumpers. >> > > I didn't realize there was much difference between the boards other > than the obvious GRD TRUE vs +TRUE versions. I checked and I have > some 12566-80024 +TRUE, some 12566-80024 GRD TRUE, but only one > 12566-60032 Microcircuit. What makes that version specially suited to > your applications? > > I also have some 12551-8001 Relay Out boards and then some 11629-6001 > 44 BIT GPO boards for which I cannot find any information. > > -Glen > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 7 16:28:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 14:28:34 -0800 Subject: Use of HCL to dissolve severe corrosion from NiCad or Alkaline Batteries or oxidation In-Reply-To: <200701071256.18162.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <20070107194007.14964.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com>, <200701071256.18162.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <45A10392.3630.107D9002@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2007 at 12:56, Lyle Bickley wrote: > HCL is an acid, not a caustic. Caustic is strongly alkaline - as in Sodium > Hydroxide (Caustic Soda), Calcium Oxide (Caustic Lime), etc. Well, as long we're picking nits...here we get into the area of "Chemistry vocabulary" versus "Everyday vocabulary". While "caustic" generally connotes "corrosively basic" when talking about reagents in the lab, strictly speaking, "caustic" implies only corrosive or burning; either strongly acidic or basic, or even neither (see, for example "lunar caustic"). The biological sense is "anything that destroys living tissue". When I was young, the treatment for canker sores was cauterization (same root as "caustic") of the sore with a stick of lunar caustic (it didn't work all that well, but the result looked better than the alternative of applying a gentian violet solution, which didn't work either). Middle English caustik, from Latin causticus, from Greek kaustikos, from kaustos, from kaiein, kau-, to burn. Google "define: caustic" and see what pops up. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 7 16:37:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 14:37:55 -0800 Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! In-Reply-To: <45A17268.8020408@gmail.com> References: <200701072214.l07MEMe5071502@keith.ezwind.net>, <45A17268.8020408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45A105C3.9762.10861DC2@cclist.sydex.com> What?! No one mentioned the robot from "Devil Girl from Mars"? Michael Carter: Mrs. Jamieson, may I introduce your latest guest. Miss Nyah. She comes from Mars. Mrs. Jamieson: Oh, well, that'll mean another bed. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jan 7 16:41:44 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 16:41:44 -0600 Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! In-Reply-To: <45A105C3.9762.10861DC2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200701072214.l07MEMe5071502@keith.ezwind.net>, <45A17268.8020408@gmail.com> <45A105C3.9762.10861DC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45A17728.7080205@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What?! No one mentioned the robot from "Devil Girl from Mars"? And Marvin the paranoid android... :-) Actually, having seen various clips of 60's science shows regarding robots, the one in Lost in Space was probably pretty close to what people generally thought robots of the future would look like. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 7 16:47:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:47:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! In-Reply-To: <45A105C3.9762.10861DC2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200701072214.l07MEMe5071502@keith.ezwind.net>, <45A17268.8020408@gmail.com> <45A105C3.9762.10861DC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070107144710.O50840@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 7 Jan 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What?! No one mentioned the robot from "Devil Girl from Mars"? What was the [Ed Wood?] movie with the robot that was a gorilla suit and a diving helmet? From yakowenk at yahoo.com Sun Jan 7 16:47:53 2007 From: yakowenk at yahoo.com (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:47:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 stuff available in Stockton CA for pickup Message-ID: <287693.52601.qm@web52308.mail.yahoo.com> Hey, all, I've got mail from some guy with a bit of TRS-80 stuff available for pickup: 3 TRS-80 computers, a TRS-80 5 Meg Disk System, manuals, flopppies, etc. If you can rescue it, let me know. I'll forward replies to him. He's in Stockton CA, and I've told him we can probably arrange a pick-up and save him the hassle of shipping. BTW, I've been slacking on this for about two weeks now, so I'll have to double-check that the items are still available. But I wanted to send this to the list now, rather than checking with him first and running the risk of falling into procrastination-land again... Cheers, Bill. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 7 16:51:49 2007 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 16:51:49 -0600 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: <20070106172436.8CD8AB1C37@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: In a similar note, I had a board set called Graphlex, it was a PC-AT 3 board hadware add on for Versacad. 640x480 256 colors, 68000 sun 3 eqivalent, ran the sun version of Versacad. It came with Richard Stallmans gnu tools too, if you wanted to do SW development. This was about 1988... I think it just used the PC for the power supply, and got the keyboard off the AT bus. The mouse/tablet and video plugged into the board set. Versacad was blowing doors in 3d in thosed days, way better than autocad. From: "Bernd Kopriva" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion >Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 18:25:01 +0100 > >On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:14:35 +0100, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > > >On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 11:51:05 -0500, Ken Seefried wrote: > > >>I recall Opus made a AT bus plugin card with a Clipper. Think it ran >Clix. > > >I have such a card, but no software and docs :( ... > > >Can anyone help ? > > >Thanks Bernd > >i've checked the board again, it's a board manufactured by Zaiaz, probably >it's not >the same as the Opus board, so my request for software/docs is for that one >... > >Ciao Bernd > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 7 16:58:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 14:58:40 -0800 Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! In-Reply-To: <20070107144710.O50840@shell.lmi.net> References: <200701072214.l07MEMe5071502@keith.ezwind.net>, <45A105C3.9762.10861DC2@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070107144710.O50840@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45A10AA0.26936.10991D8C@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2007 at 14:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > What was the [Ed Wood?] movie with the robot that was a gorilla suit and a > diving helmet? You must mean "Robot Monster". Not an Ed Wood production, though. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jan 7 17:09:02 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 17:09:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! Message-ID: <200701072309.l07N923i074056@keith.ezwind.net> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Why would you want that piece of trash?!!! > > Sorry, but I think it's the worst designed robot > > in the history of films! > > Robbie the robot (Forbidden Planet, 3 or 4 eps > > of Lost In Space 60's tv series, background in > > Gremlins 1 (or 2?) and even in a Columbo film > > from the 70's!), Gort (Day The Earth Stood > > Still), Maximillion (The Black Hole) and more > > modern robot's such as Robocop, ED-209 and > > Caine (all from the Robocop films), plus the > > T-1000 (Terminator), are much better designed > > to be menacing and/or cool looking. > > Are you sure you're not talking about the T-800? > The T-1000 is the > liquid-metal jobbie. > > Peace... Sridhar > Ooops. Yeah, I meant the T-800 (Arnold Schwarzenegger). Whilst double-checking the T-number, I came across this huge list of goof's (page is around 200KB's): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103064/goofs Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 17:11:15 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 18:11:15 -0500 Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! In-Reply-To: <45A105C3.9762.10861DC2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200701072214.l07MEMe5071502@keith.ezwind.net>, <45A17268.8020408@gmail.com> <45A105C3.9762.10861DC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45A17E13.6050405@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What?! No one mentioned the robot from "Devil Girl from Mars"? > > Michael Carter: Mrs. Jamieson, may I introduce your latest guest. > Miss Nyah. She comes from Mars. > > Mrs. Jamieson: Oh, well, that'll mean another bed. What about Box from Logan's Run? Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 7 17:14:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 15:14:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: garbled display Message-ID: <20070107231437.88536.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> and I should also point out some of the screen is reverse video, some is blinking. Anyone know what happened to John Allain? --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > it only helps if youre going to swing by and unseat > the 80186 from its bizarre cage. I aint touching one > ever again. But thanks all the same Roger :) > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jan 7 17:17:17 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 17:17:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! Message-ID: <200701072317.l07NHHME074333@keith.ezwind.net> --- "Bryan K. Blackburn" wrote: > Recently we have seen recreations of several vinta ge > computers like the > Mark-8 Minicomputer, the Apple 1, the IMSAI 8080 a nd > most recently the > Altair 8800, but wait till you see this!!! > > eBay item # 230051400851 > > The effort that must have went into this project.. .! > Detailed > construction photos here: > > http://www.lostinspacerobot.com/newsletter.html > > I confess that I have always wanted one of these! :) > I have no > connection with the seller etc. & etc. > My dad has got 2 plastic models from Lost In Space. One had the giant holding a boulder above his head with John and Don below him and the other one was a 6" (or thereabouts) tall model of the Robinson robot. Not sure where they are now though. If he had the money I'm sure he would want the replica of the Robinson robot :) Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 7 17:42:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 15:42:55 -0800 Subject: Stunning recreation work: Danger Will Robinson! In-Reply-To: <45A17E13.6050405@gmail.com> References: <200701072214.l07MEMe5071502@keith.ezwind.net>, <45A105C3.9762.10861DC2@cclist.sydex.com>, <45A17E13.6050405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45A114FF.31190.10C1A0D4@cclist.sydex.com> Another really notable movie: "The Robot vs. The Aztec Mummy" Mexican production, Spanish dubbed into English. Shows what one can do with a bit of cardboard and aluminum paint. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jan 7 17:49:22 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:49:22 -0500 Subject: My Second Mac References: <41411fa87d3e31c0477039986aa96a9b@valleyimplants.com> <45A1721E.7010208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007c01c732b6$74c47fe0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: Re: My Second Mac > > Earlier revisions of ColdFire weren't compatible with older 68K. The > latest revisions are now compatible enough to work as replacements for > the 68060. If memory serves, the ColdFire chips that work for replacing > an '060 are latest two revisions. > > I've seen a ColdFire upgrade board for the Amiga 4000. It's blazing fast. > > Peace... Sridhar The 68060 was quite a bit different then the 680x0 that were released before it (they started taking things out of the hardware at that point). A 68060 will not boot Mac OS (even with the voltage adapter board used in 040 to 060 conversions for the Amiga) and from what I recall needed emulation done in software to work correctly on the Amiga as well. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 7 18:58:53 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 16:58:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: My Second Mac In-Reply-To: from Scott Quinn at "Jan 7, 7 10:10:39 am" Message-ID: <200701080058.l080wrwH014514@floodgap.com> > My guess has to do with processors: i80486 binaries can run just fine > on Pentium+ systems. > The software probably can work just fine at 68040 speeds, but then when > run on PowerPC systems you have the emulation overhead which drops > speeds to around a IIci (25MHz 68030, think Sun-3) on a 8100/80 (80MHz > PPC601) Some companies didn't want the bother of maintaining two > versions (68k and PPC, especially after the PPC machines had been out a > year or two), so they would compile PPC only- hence the higher system > requirements. All true, but "PPC" is still a very wide gulf. For that particular package to specify all the way up to a G4, the earliest it could have emerged was after the Yikes! G4, so we'll say at the *earliest* the software emerged in late 1999. Similarly, "fast PPC" can be defined any way you like, but if we take a fairly reasonable point and say a second-generation 603e like a Performa 6360 (160MHz), that's late 1996. So, at its most *restrictive*, this covers three years of Macs, and odds are the software came out a bit later than the first generation of G4s. That's not a very cramped set of Macs that can run it, and even larger if you're prepared to put up with the performance of, say, a suckier 603e like a (kill-me-now) 6200 series Performa, or a first-generation 601. I don't think this had much to do with 68K, and given that it had to come out in 1999 or later, 68K would have been a very distant blip on the radar by then. I write 68K-compatible software where possible, but I'm a classic Mac weirdo after all. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- People who buy computers from TV commercials *deserve* PCs. ---------------- From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 20:17:17 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 21:17:17 -0500 Subject: My Second Mac In-Reply-To: <007c01c732b6$74c47fe0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <41411fa87d3e31c0477039986aa96a9b@valleyimplants.com> <45A1721E.7010208@gmail.com> <007c01c732b6$74c47fe0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45A1A9AD.7090504@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: >> Earlier revisions of ColdFire weren't compatible with older 68K. The >> latest revisions are now compatible enough to work as replacements for >> the 68060. If memory serves, the ColdFire chips that work for replacing >> an '060 are latest two revisions. >> >> I've seen a ColdFire upgrade board for the Amiga 4000. It's blazing fast. > > The 68060 was quite a bit different then the 680x0 that were released before > it (they started taking things out of the hardware at that point). A 68060 > will not boot Mac OS (even with the voltage adapter board used in 040 to 060 > conversions for the Amiga) and from what I recall needed emulation done in > software to work correctly on the Amiga as well. From what I understand, Motorola made the line simpler and simpler as time went on. I think they did it so that they could get the clock speeds up. Peace... Sridhar From trag at io.com Sun Jan 7 20:41:38 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 20:41:38 -0600 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <200701071113.l07BCrXR087684@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200701071113.l07BCrXR087684@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 09:51:16 -0800 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >I picked up another Mac yesterday--a beige 300 Mhz G3 with 256MB, >and a 15 GB hard disk. It's also got a USB adapter plugged into one >of the PCI slots. It's running OS 9.something. Set me back $20. >Were Zip drives a standard part of these things? > >On a side-by-side with a Win2K P1 225MHz system with the same amount >of memory, I think the WIndoze box has snappier response and has >better video. > >For you Mac addicts, what do you think should be my next step in >getting the most out of this box? My experience with the Beige G3 is that the stock hard drives are slow as molasses. The built-in IDE bus is only 16.7 MB/s (whichever ATA that is) but the hard drive doesn't even perform up to that level--at least mine did not. Once I installed a more modern hard drive (faster media rate, i.e. faster data from platters to heads) the machine showed a marked improvement in performance. Beyond that, you can easily spend more upgrading than a faster newer machine would cost you on the used market. That said... A faster IDE card would improve things as well. Acard makes a very nice two channel ATA-133 card however, it will set you back about twice what you paid for the machine. Some years ago VST Tech sold an ATA-66 card based on the Promise UltraTek 66 card. If you move three or four SM resistors, possibly pull the half-size metal can oscillator (there are different versions of the UT66 and some have the Osc. and others don't) and desolder and reprogram the Winbond Flash chip, you can convert a cheap (<$5) Promise UltraTek66 into a VST UltraTek66. If you care, I'll try to hunt up the conversion instructions. The Promise cards were apparently OEM in DELL machines or some such, so there are a bunch of them on the used market. The bus speed and bus-CPU multiplier are controlled by a jumper block on the front left of the motherboard. You can change the bus speed from 66MHz to 75 (IIRC) or 83 MHz by moving jumpers. However, many of the Beige G3s won't operate at 83 MHz and tests show that this doesn't really make a big difference in performance. The 300 MHz CPU can often be run at around 366 MHz, so you can speed your CPU a bit by changing the bus-CPU ratio. Many folks have done this reliably, but my experience was that it caused problems after a while. CPU replacements up to 1.1 GHz are also available but the manufacturer's (PowerLogix) retail outlet (OWC, macsales.com) seems to be out of them. See above about spending more money than a newer used computer would cost... There's a gap in speeds between 500 MHz and 900 MHz having to do with the version history of the PPC750. The machine used PC66 SDRAM but PC100 or PC133 will also work. DIMM capacities up to 256 MB are supported but some addressing modes are not. So you need (I think) 16 chip DIMMs on the 256 MB capacity. IIRC eight chip 256 MB DIMMs will not work or will only be seen as 128 MB. 512 MB DIMMs won't work because of limitations of the Motorola/Freescale MPC106 memory/PCI controller/bridge. For the things where my memory is hazy (indicated by a ? or "I think") check the articles on G3 computers at xlr8yourmac.com. Also, there's a link from the FAQ there to the jumper settings for the Beige G3 motherboard clock and ratio settings. >I don't care for the Mac monitor that came with it--has anyone tried >hooking up a fixed-frequency SOG workstation monitor to it? I've got >a nice HP/Sony model that might be a candidate. Mac DB15 to VGA adapters are common and cheap (=<$4, I sell a multi-rez model for $4 shipped in USA). If the monitor will work with a VGA output, it should be possible to make it work on the built-in video of the Beige G3. However, the Beige G3 and earlier Macs rely on sense codes in the monitor cable to indicate what resolutions are supported. When an adapter is used the sense codes are provided by the adapter. Some adapters are fixed-resolution coded so it's tough to get anything but the adapter's fixed resolution out of the Mac if you use a fixed resolution adapter. Other adapters are "universal" and have DIP switches to support many resolutions, and one of the resolution code choices is "21" multi-resolution". Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Sun Jan 7 21:28:11 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 21:28:11 -0600 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <200701071113.l07BCrXR087684@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200701071113.l07BCrXR087684@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:57:06 -0800 (PST) >From: Cameron Kaiser >> I picked up another Mac yesterday--a beige 300 Mhz G3 with 256MB, >> On a side-by-side with a Win2K P1 225MHz system with the same amount >> of memory, I think the WIndoze box has snappier response and has >> better video. > >The beige G3 has only a Rage II+ card by default. The later Revision 2 and >3 use Rage Pro. Thus, I think the video issue you're noticing is probably >the accelerator. The original 300 is almost certainly Revision 1. The video chip can be visually examined, although the "Wings" card (AV card) may be in the way. It will have Rage II or Rage Pro (or Rage Turbo?) printed on it. You may also be able to get this information from Apple system Profiler in the Apple menu. If the ROM DIMM has not been switched out, you can determine your revision by looking at the ROM revision in the first page of Apple System Profiler. Under "Production Information" look at "ROM Revision". If it is $77D.40F2 then you have a Revision A ROM. If this ROM shipped with this motherboard then you also have a revision 1 motherboard. However, the ROM DIMM is pretty easy to switch so there's no guarantee that the machine contains the ROM it originally shipped with and all of the ROM revisions work with all of the motherboard revisions. If the ROM revision is $77D.45F1 it is a revision B. If it is $77D.45F2 it is a revision C and absent ROM swapping the machine probably has a RAGE Pro video chip. If you have a Rev. A ROM, then the built-in IDE channels in the machine will only support 1 device per channel. You need Rev. B or C ROM for two device support per channel. You can also determine your ROM revision by looking at the Apple part number on the two ROM chips on the ROM DIMM. However, I don't remember the numbers. It's something like 341S0409 and 0408 is Rev. A, 341S0494 adn 0495 is Rev. C and I've never seen a Rev. B with the part numbers on it so I can't say, but I imagine it's 341S04xx with xx up close to 90. No matter which motherboard you have, switching to a B or C ROM will enable two device support on the IDE channels. >You might as well get a Rage Orion and I think you'll find the performance >much better. The Rage Orion is a 16MB Rage 128 PCI card, and I know from >personal experience that it is Mac-compatible and has good performance. >They're pretty cheap on the used market. Rage Orion was ATI's name for one of the Macintosh versions of the Rage 128. PC versions of the Rage 128 won't work. (I am not contradicting Cameron, just restating his information a bit.) It may be possible to do a conversion from PC version to Mac version, but I don't think anyone has ever reported a successful modification. The Radeon 7000 works well in the Beige and the Sapphire version of the PCI card with DDR memory is easily converted to Macintosh use. It is also just $30 at Newegg. Simply remove the eight pin SOIC serial flash chip and replace it with a blank ST Micro M25P10. It should then either flash with the current Mac firmware updater from ATI or it may require the R7000-ROM-208 version. It's been a while. I know the latter will work. I'm not sure about the former. Whichever way, update to the latest firmware afterwards, because there are some Sleep issues with earlier versions. 3D driver support is only official after OS 9.2 but if you install the Open GL 1.22 or 1.24 extensions by hand into OS 9.1 it works fine. Jeff Walther From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 7 21:32:18 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 19:32:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: from Jeff Walther at "Jan 7, 7 09:28:11 pm" Message-ID: <200701080332.l083WI1h013492@floodgap.com> > > You might as well get a Rage Orion and I think you'll find the performance > > much better. The Rage Orion is a 16MB Rage 128 PCI card, and I know from > > personal experience that it is Mac-compatible and has good performance. > > They're pretty cheap on the used market. > > Rage Orion was ATI's name for one of the Macintosh versions of the > Rage 128. PC versions of the Rage 128 won't work. (I am not > contradicting Cameron, just restating his information a bit.) No, it's a good clarification to make. I said the Orion specifically because I have experience with that card, but yes, it was targetted and specifically for Mac systems. > It may be possible to do a conversion from PC version to Mac version, > but I don't think anyone has ever reported a successful modification. I've seen flasher utilities for Radeons, but I don't know if there was any made for a PCI Rage 128. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- NEWS ITEM: Energizer Bunny arrested, charged with battery ------------------ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 23:07:59 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 00:07:59 -0500 Subject: microprocessors in my vax 3800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/7/07, Paul Thompson wrote: > On Fri, 5 Jan 2007, 9000 VAX wrote: > > Today I pulled out the boards in my vax 3800 and I found 7 microprocessors > > besides the CVAX. They are, > > 2x 68000, 8096, 80186, 2x 8086, Z80. > > I had noticed similar with XMI and BI boards, where one might see > combination of a couple of processors including a VAX chip along with an > AMD x86 clone or a 68k or Zilog processor. > > I remember reading a description of the 'nexus' concept in some DEC unix > sources which seemed to indicate a prediliction for 'smart' boards. Given what it takes to make the BIIC (the DEC chip in the corner of *all* VAXBI boards) work, unlike older CSR-based boards, I don't think it's feasible (or perhaps possible) to have a dumb VAXBI board. At the very least, you'd need some form of state engine to handle ticking the board-side of the BIIC so that the board tells the host VAX that it passed self test. In the era that folks were building VAXBI boards (like our COMBOARD-BI), for communication interfaces, at least, a 68000-family processor was a reasonable way to implement the board smarts - check the DMB32 for one example. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 7 23:37:26 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 00:37:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun plastics In-Reply-To: <566761d653d63dfcdd81c05e15788052@valleyimplants.com> References: <566761d653d63dfcdd81c05e15788052@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200701080539.AAA15879@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Has anyone had success fixing the plastic "alloy" that Sun uses in > their cases? I don't know what Sun made their cases out of after they switched to PCI. But the plastic they used in the -3/80-to-U2 era, I just use ordinary epoxy on. It's worked well in every instance I've tried (which is some four or five by now, generally machines that suffered case damage before they reached my hands). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 8 01:04:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 23:04:19 -0800 Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: References: <200701071113.l07BCrXR087684@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <45A17C73.1196.1255B980@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2007 at 20:41, Jeff Walther wrote: > My experience with the Beige G3 is that the stock hard drives are > slow as molasses. The built-in IDE bus is only 16.7 MB/s (whichever > ATA that is) but the hard drive doesn't even perform up to that > level--at least mine did not. The G3 now has 768MB of memory and it helps quite a bit. The hard drive's a Fujitsu and not the original. > Beyond that, you can easily spend more upgrading than a faster newer > machine would cost you on the used market. That said... Nah, I'm just trying to figure out the Mac "culture". I want to get my currently unused workstation monitor on the G3 and poke around a bit. I ran across a web page giving the hookup and resolutions for the Monitor ID pins on the display connector. I can take it from there. I'll poke around the recycling place for interesting widgets pertaining to Macs, but I don't intend to spend too much time on this, given that new Macs are x86-based. Thanks, Chuck From chuck.patten at verizon.net Sun Jan 7 15:23:15 2007 From: chuck.patten at verizon.net (Chuck Patten) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 13:23:15 -0800 Subject: Motorola 6800D2 Message-ID: Hi Allison, it was directed at the person who might have an excess 6800D2 unit. Unfortunately I never received your reply before today (I found it in a Google search...) cheers, chuck... Allison ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 15 21:30:44 CDT 2005 * Previous message: volunteers wanted for list help :) * Next message: Compaq SLT/286 * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ This is aimed at whom? Allison > >Subject: Motorola 6800D2 > From: "Chuck Patten" > > Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:05:00 -0700 > To: > > >Noticed you had collected one from an old thread. Are you interested in >parting with it? > > > >cheers, > >chuck. > > _____ * Previous message: volunteers wanted for list help :) * Next message: Compaq SLT/286 * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctalk mailing list From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sun Jan 7 18:40:08 2007 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:40:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted In-Reply-To: <20070107170101.12232.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jan 07, 2007 09:01:01 AM Message-ID: <200701080040.l080e8Px005195@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >I take it the 800 was the successor to the 400, the >1st unit my fingers ever typed on. No, the 800 was released at the same time as the 400. 400 was the "lower end games computer", 800 was the "more serious" higher end computer. Marty From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Mon Jan 8 01:32:29 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 02:32:29 -0500 Subject: 2.5GB bigfoot drives on dovebid In-Reply-To: <1731575786@web.de> Message-ID: >> On 6 Jan 2007 at 16:40, Richard wrote: >> >> > Wasn't there some discussion recently looking for < 10 GB drives? >> > >> > There's a bunch of 2.5GB drives on dovebid right now... >> >> Quantum Bigfoot--bleah. Miserable things. > >Yeah, I would'nt rely on Bigfoot drives, too. They are *very* low-cost and so is the quality and therefore >reliability. >We had several of these which gave up work quite quickly. >One should try to avoid them. > >Regards, >Pierre > Has anyone checked http://www.pcliquidator.com for smaller hard drives. Some things they sell are a bit over priced but most are pretty good. They have a bunch of under 10GB drives for sale, both SCSI and IDE, plus check the bulk section for assorted "pot luck" drives all tested and cleaned. I have no affiliation with them but have bought a bunch of stuff from them in the past for older system repairs. Greg http://www.gmconsulting.net From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 8 05:56:31 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 03:56:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted Message-ID: <832667.1701.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> but what were the differences besides the keyboard? They must have had similar internals. --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > >I take it the 800 was the successor to the 400, the > >1st unit my fingers ever typed on. > > > No, the 800 was released at the same time as the 400. 400 was the "lower > end games computer", 800 was the "more serious" higher end computer. > > > Marty __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 8 06:07:35 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 07:07:35 -0500 Subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted References: <832667.1701.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01c7331d$95b05d20$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Re: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted > but what were the differences besides the keyboard? > They must have had similar internals. Expansion options I would think. A friend of mine in highschool had both the 400 and 800 units , but we only used the 800 when we had groups over to play Ultima III and IV. I snooped around and remember that there were card slots for RAM and ROM carts under the hood of the 800 but never looked in the 400. This site shows the expansion bays (and differences) in the 2 units: http://www.silicium.org/atari/800.htm http://www.silicium.org/atari/400.htm It looks like the 400 was stuck with its 16K? RAM while the 800 can be expanded more and it has an extra ROM port it seems. The original series was built like a tank, the XL and later models were not as good from what I remember. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 8 08:26:36 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 08:26:36 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING><1e1fc3e90701051245w133d45abxd6775fc00c19438d@mail.gmail.com><012401c73119$fb00de30$6500a8c0@BILLING><1e1fc3e90701051534l7df2c326m314ce92776df6e02@mail.gmail.com><000001c731ed$caf0fe30$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1e1fc3e90701070740u51deb084jabb4ec1996cfbffc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006001c73331$02790c50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Glen wrote.... > I didn't realize there was much difference between the boards other > than the obvious GRD TRUE vs +TRUE versions. I checked and I have > some 12566-80024 +TRUE, some 12566-80024 GRD TRUE, but only one > 12566-60032 Microcircuit. It gets even more convoluted because some of the complete part numbers (12566-XXXXX) refer to the "same" board but later field replacement vs. original issue. So two boards with different part #'s may be the "same" board. My CE handbook has some of these new vs. field replacement board translations, but certainly not all of them plus it changed over time. You mention GRD true & + true both being 12566-80024... I suspect you're looking at the pca assy # rather than the part number or vice versa. They are both on the same spot on the board. These two boards would not have the same part number I don't think. I THINK from foggy memory that the original issue boards for grd tru were 12566-6001 and + true were 12566-6002. I'd have to dig to be sure... maybe the + true version was ordered as 12566 option 001? I don't recall. > What makes that version specially suited to your applications? As I said in a previous post... there's a fair number of jumpers on the older style 12566 boards, and all those jumpers are solder-type. Several of those jumpers are four post jumpers (central jumper with 3 option selections) and the options aren't mutually exclusive. I imagine many people use a 12566 for a single specific thing, so they set (solder) the jumpers a certain way and they never need to change the jumpers again. I however tend to bounce 12566 boards around in lots of different configurations for different things in different machines on a regular basis. Back when I was messing with my HP boxes a lot it wasn't uncommon for me to want to change the jumpers on a 12566 several times a day. It's rather irritating to have to get out a soldering iron just to try a 3 second "what if I set it this way" scenario. There's another reason - I don't remember the exact specifics... but the diagnostics for the 12566 board require certain of the jumpers to be set a certain way I think. One of my applications (TSB interconnect kit I think) required those same jumpers a different way. So to run diags, I had to break out a soldering iron and then put them back to use the board. Not a huge deal, but irritating. And no, I'd rather not mount a custom switch to my board unless I absolutely had to. Well, the later model 12566 boards that I prefer (Microcircuit/12566-60032) have plug jumpers instead of solder jumpers. So I can change jumper settings in a second or two and put them back quickly a moment later. In addition, I recall there being some extra features on the -60032 boards that looked like they would be handy if one was building a custom device... Jay West From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 8 09:32:24 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 10:32:24 -0500 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <200701080737.l087avk3001023@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004001c7333a$325046b0$6500a8c0@barry> Re: "would it be possible to get a 5.25 to work in say an older laptop w/an integral 3.5?" Maybe. Quite a few Toshiba laptops have an external floppy drive port. It is a true floppy port, designed to interface to a 34-pin floppy interface. Two different connectors were used, the "standard" Toshiba floppy port connector used in every model computer except the Tecra 8000, and a slightly different connector used in the Tecra 8000 series. These connectors are found in the Satellite 400 series laptops (two distinctly different sets of laptops, the "early" 400 series (400 to 435, Pentium I's) and the "late" 400 series, 440 to 490, Pentium MMX and even a Pentium II). They are also found in the Tecra 8000 (different connector), which used both Pentium II and Pentium III CPU (266MHz to about 500MHz). I think that there are other Toshiba laptops that have a similar connector as well, in the Tecra and Portege line (and also the libretto models). Note, since this port was used for the 3.5" floppy drive, you generally won't be able to have both 3.5" and 5.25" drives installed at the same time (but, on some of these, the very reason for the port was that there was an internal drive bay that could either contain the floppy drive internally, or a CD-ROM drive. Not sure if you could use an internal and an external floppy concurrently in those models). Also, Toshiba assumed that the external drive was 3.5" and there is no provision in the BIOS to configure the bios and software for any other floppy drive format. Finally, the hardware reconfiguration (cable) will be a bitch to figure out, although it is conceptually possible. While the external floppy has the 34-pin electrical interface, mechanically it's not a standard 34-pin IDC connector, it's a flat "flex cable", and reworking the cable to connect to a 34-pin standard interface will take some effort. The good news is that you can buy entire laptops in this series for as little as $15, and you can find the external floppy caddies for $5 (source of the cable and connector that mates with the laptop). From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 8 10:59:14 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 09:59:14 -0700 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 08 Jan 2007 08:26:36 -0600. <006001c73331$02790c50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <006001c73331$02790c50$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > [...] My CE handbook has some of these new vs. field replacement board > translations, but certainly not all of them plus it changed over time. Fortunately for you, the set of translations is now complete and fixed :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 8 11:01:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 10:01:00 -0700 Subject: rt-11 Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 07 Jan 2007 18:58:32 +0000. <26c11a640701071058y67f48df8n7d8f93cd2062a4be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <26c11a640701071058y67f48df8n7d8f93cd2062a4be at mail.gmail.com>, "Dan Williams" writes: > I'm sure someone on the list asked a while back, but I couldn't find > it. I have the complete rt-11 docs printed out. They are too heavy to > post but can be picked up from here (Soho UK). "Too heavy to post"? Hey, I just recently bought a complete set of VAX/VMS documentation -- 12 boxes stuffed to the gills. Nothing is too heavy to post! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 8 11:09:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 09:09:25 -0800 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <004001c7333a$325046b0$6500a8c0@barry> References: <200701080737.l087avk3001023@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <004001c7333a$325046b0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <45A20A45.720.147FB46D@cclist.sydex.com> At the expense of stating the obvious, there's always the MicroSolutions 5.25 Backpack drive, if your laptop has a parallel printer port. But they're getting hard to find. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 8 11:15:36 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 11:15:36 -0600 Subject: HP 21MX/F and OS choices (was Lookee what I just got!) References: <1168070487.4220.19.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <011801c73348$a09e76b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Warren wrote... > Well, I went and did it. I am now the proud owner of an HP-2117F, if I > can identify it correctly, Oh yes, you identified it correctly. Congrats on a nice box! > My experience with the HP 1000 series machines is, almost exclusively, > programming them in TSB on HP-200B, C, and F systems, many moons ago. Woohoo! Another TSB'er, and one getting real hardware no less. Awesome! > Jay, you seem to be an alpha geek when it comes to HP iron. Old HP 21xx/21MX iron... there's a few others lurking on the list far more competant than I on that gear, but I'm not a complete idiot (usually) on the topic :) I do seem to be one of the few that really focuses on TSB. > (A term of respect, no offense intended...) None taken :) > So, could you look at the > above auctions, and tell me what I need to make a good system. > Obviously, a disk system comes to mind... but, if you could be > specific, I would appreciate it. What you need depends on what OS you are going to run. Bear in mind that my first love is TSB and always will be. BUT... do yourself a favor (and I HIGHLY recommend anyone else messing with HP 21xx/21MX gear do the same) and take a look at HP-IPL/OS. This is a small but incredibly useful and powerful OS written recently (comparatively) by list member Bob Shannon and Terry Newton. Think of it as a sort-of Forth-like development system - the learning curve to get it up and running and start really using it productively is measured in minutes, not hours - and there is some real meat/capability there for those who want it. Folks, I'm telling you - HP-IPL/OS is hella cool. See: http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/ I'll detail some "off the top of my head" OS & hardware choices below, or at least generalizations to consider before digging into things deeper. > Also, what are the chances of this > being a suitable machine to run Time-Share BASIC, or TSB? Good, with additional hardware ;) See below... > I imagine I > would need microcode boards or ROM for the microcode boards already > there, but, for all I know, it already *IS* a TSB machine. Special microcode is needed for 2000/Access only. The other versions of TSB don't need it. The microcode used to be something of a holy grail... but over the years I have located it for most all the different HP machines (no small amount of thanks for that should also go to Al Kossow, Eric Smith, and Bob Shannon). It should no longer be considered an obstacle at all. For most of the "more fun" versions of TSB, you'll need two cpus though so be on the lookout for another 21MX :) But continue reading below before giving up hope if two cpu's isn't in your future... Ok... where to begin.... There are three likely candidates that pop into my head. HP-IPL/OS, TSB, and RTE. There are other choices that I know exist, but I haven't done the legwork to find media/docs and try them out. Some of us HP inclined people need to spearhead some of these less common OS's like DOS, MTOS, DACE... they need to be preserved and I'm not aware of anyone actively working on locating them and running them. Twould be a shame if they vanish into the bitbucket... Oh, there's also the standalone stuff... the early HP's didn't run OS's, there was standalone fortran, apl, linkers, editors, etc... much like the early PDP8 stuff. The standalone setups shouldn't be totally discounted. HP-IPL/OS - I'm not going to go into any detail on this one here. It rocks. Nuff said. See the URL above which speaks for itself. It will run on the tinyest of configurations, up to the largest setup you can imagine. I'll let Bob fill in any details people want to know, he's way more qualified than I to speak on HP-IPL/OS requirements. This absolutely should be the first OS anyone runs when getting into HP gear, because you'll get your machine doing something interesting and fun with little hardware right away. RTE - I need others on the list to speak to this. I don't run it currently, although I have booted up a few different versions a couple times. To my own way of thinking, it's an odd non-intuitive OS. That's my own (somewhat uninformed) subjectivity though, many other HP'ers will strongly disagree and their points are no less valid than mine (since they run it, probably more valid than mine). I can say that running this OS is very attainable, it's well documented and available. There is no doubt that it is by far the most common OS on the HP 21xx/2100/21MX product line, and definitely the reason it flourished for so many years. Pretty much any HP box you find in the wild was last running RTE. RTE is like TSB in that there are different variations or flavors of it, and each one has very different hardware requirements (some versions require special microcode). I have some good documentation about what hardware was required for which variant of RTE, but I have both forgotten the specifics and where I pigeonholed those docs. I do know that it ran on fairly small systems with little memory, up to the biggest boxes/setups possible. In my biased opinion, the biggest advantage of running RTE is hardware support - since it was the most common OS for these boxes by far, almost any hardware you have will be supported. There's much less worry about things like "I have to have a 7900A drive and 13210A controller" because RTE will support the old 13210A drives, the later 13037 subsystems (7905/7906/7920/7925) as well as HP-IB drives (7906H, 7912, etc. etc.), and wasn't SCSI done too? It is likely that I will be taking one of my machines and making it run RTE permanently, if for no other reason than to run large assembly's of HP code. Not to mention that I feel a little guilty not being super-familiar with the flagship OS of these machines. TSB - This is the most fun choice to me, or maybe I mean nostalgic. I (and a suprising number of others) cut my teeth on HP 2000 TimeShared BASIC. It was suprisingly popular in high schools and colleges as a teaching machine - so it was many peoples first experience programming. The versions that were produced were 2000A, 2000B, 2000C, 2000C' (2000C "prime" or "high speed"), 2000E, 2000F, 2000F' (2000F "prime" or "high speed"), and 2000/Access. I would dismiss A and B out of hand (with regards to what you should try to run nowdays). They required certain specific hardware that is highly unlikely to be found and were fairly primitive with regards to features like the later versions were. For the purposes of discussion I'll lump 2000C & 2000C' together, and then separately lump 2000F & 2000F' together. I tend to dismiss C and F as not worthy of pursuing, but only because 2000/Access has every feature of C & F plus more. Used to, when the special microcode for 2000/Access was unobtanium - 2000C and F were certainly good candidates to run since they didn't need the microcode. But now that the microcode is found and easy to replicate, I see no real reason to build a C or F system. Note that when I dismiss A, B, C, and F.... I wouldn't do that so easily if there was a different look & feel to those systems. I realize someone may want A, B, C, or F for nostalgia. But keep in mind that Access has all the same commands and syntax (with VERY minor exceptions) as A, B, C, and F. So if someone wants to feel the nostalgia of running that old 2000B system, they will certainly feel the exact same nostalgia on an E or Access system. It's unlikely they would notice a difference (even if the person's memory of the A, B, C, or F machine was as fresh as yesterday). So that leaves us with 2000/E and 2000/Access as good candidates. 2000/E is a fairly stripped down version of TSB. As fas as capabilities go, it's a bit more like 2000A and B. It requires a single cpu. I am not sure about memory, but I suspect it needed 32kw (definitely not more than that, since DMS wasn't supported or needed). It probably needed the floating point option. The system console must be a 12531 board, TSB never supported any other boards for the console (foggy memory, there may have been a high speed "crt" board, something like 12880? that looked to the system just like a 12531, this would be ok). The BACI board (which is by far the most common serial interface) will not work. The only disc drive supported is a 7900A, which means you need a 7900A disc drive and a 13210A disc controller interface (2 card set). These drives are not all that common but do show up from time to time. You also need a paper tape reader, 2748B, which uses the 12597-6001 interface board (usually marked "8 bit dupr" for 8 bit duplex register board). You also need a Time Base Generator (TBG) board. A mag tape drive is very handy (7970B or 7970E, E prefered), which uses a 13181 controller (2 card set) - but this is NOT required. Lastly, what is required and seems to be very hard to find... is the 16 channel multiplexor used to hook up user terminals. This was 12921-60002, 12921-60001, and 12922-60001 (a 3 board set, generally called a "mux set" or "12920/21/22" set). These three boards hook up to an external printed circuit board (don't have the number handy) which presented 16 db25 ports. If you don't have the external board, you CAN build your own RS232 cables with DB25 on one end and connect them to the right spots on the mux set boards instead. So in a nutshell, to your 2117F cpu, you need to add a 12531 console board, 7900A disc drive & 13210 controller set, 2748B paper tape reader & 12597 interface, and 12920/21 mux set. The major differences between 2000/E and 2000/Access... the basic language has no "system" statement, nor formatted printing (no print using or image), and no timed input. There are no group libraries, only system and user. It also doesn't support MRJE to IBM or CDC mainframes. Some disagree, but I think 2000/E is a very nice and very usable system. 2000/Access is the last/best version of TSB. It's very close to 2000C and F, but with group libraries and IBM/CDC MRJE. For this (as well as 2000C and 2000F) you must have TWO cpu's, not just one. About the only cpu you CANT use is the short 21MX/M designated 2105 (2108 and 2112 are fine) - this is just due to space reasons. The main cpu needs 32kw of memory and the floating point option. The slave cpu needs anywhere from 16kw to 32kw depending on how you gen your system and the 2000/Access special microcode. Paper tape is not required (unless you are using 2100A/2100S cpu's). For disc, you can use 7900A or 7901A drives which use the 13210 controller set, or you can use the 13037 subsystem (that's a single 13037 card in the master cpu, and a small rackmount 13037 controller box) which lets you use 7905(7906) and 7920 drives. You can use both 13210 and 13037 setups on the same system. Note, the last access as released didn't support 7906 drives directly. It supported 7905's though, and the system has no way of telling a 7906 drive isn't a 7905, you just don't get the extra capacity. If you have a 7906 just tell the system it's a 7905 and it'll work fine. The 7920 drive also works and is supported on the 13037. The 7925 drive works on the 13037, but I do not know for sure that TSB can use it partially or at all. On the bright side, most any HP 21xx/21MX cpu found in the wild will meet the above spec (sans microcode), and 7906 drives are common as dirt - still! A mag tape unit (7970B or 7970E plus 13181 controller) is not optional, it's required (they aren't super rare fortunately). The 12920/21/22 mux set is also required (these are rare). TBG board is required. Console must be a 12531. The 2000/Access microcode is required (I can burn a set for you). The extra requirement here (besides 7970 and 2nd cpu and microcode) is the processor interconnect kit. This is a set of two 12566 boards in each cpu (4 total) along with two big cables that ties the two cpu's together. Fortunately, 12566 boards aren't uncommon - the cables are, but those can be fabricated yourself. So, there you have it. If I were you, I'd focus on HP-IPL/OS first, while at the same time looking around for the remaining gear to get RTE and Access up. As I recall, any hardware that will run Access will most definitely run some form of RTE, but the reverse isn't necessarily true. Welcome to the HP crowd, congrats on your system... If I can help just drop me a line. Best regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 8 11:17:17 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 11:17:17 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: Message-ID: <012701c73348$dd3f6610$6500a8c0@BILLING> I had written.... >> [...] My CE handbook has some of these new vs. field replacement board >> translations, but certainly not all of them plus it changed over time. To which Richard replied... > Fortunately for you, the set of translations is now complete and fixed Yes, it is. But unfortunately for me, my collection of different vintage CE handbooks is not complete ;) Jay West From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 8 12:30:02 2007 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 10:30:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted In-Reply-To: <200701081717.l08HGuh7006555@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070108183002.3683.qmail@web50507.mail.yahoo.com> > > but what were the differences besides the keyboard? > > They must have had similar internals. > > Expansion options I would think. A friend of mine in highschool had both > the 400 and 800 units , but we only used the 800 when we had groups over to > play Ultima III and IV. I snooped around and remember that there were card > slots for RAM and ROM carts under the hood of the 800 but never looked in > the 400. > > This site shows the expansion bays (and differences) in the 2 units: > > http://www.silicium.org/atari/800.htm > http://www.silicium.org/atari/400.htm > > It looks like the 400 was stuck with its 16K? RAM while the 800 can be > expanded more and it has an extra ROM port it seems. > > The original series was built like a tank, the XL and later models were not > as good from what I remember. The cast aluminum internal case was for EMI reasons. They were being extremely conservative to the point of overkill since, at that time, the less restrictive FCC ratings specifically for digital devices in homes weren't yet in existence. The 400 sold for US $549.95 while exactly the same hardware (with respect to custom processors and processing power) with more expansion capability and a real keyboard went for US $999.95 in the Atari 800. That $450 merely for more _easy_ expandability and a real rather than membrane keyboard wasn't enough to me to justify the additional cost, so I bought the 400 and wired up internally more memory and a real keyboard later on (for FAR less than $450). Byte magazine did a highly complimentary two-part (IIRC) series of articles on the powerful (for then) custom sound and graphics chips in the Atari machines. This was what led me to buy the Atari 400 a few years before the Commodore 64 became available. Jay Miner was the lead designer for those custom chips and he would later design the Amiga custom chips after leaving Atari. http://oldcomputers.net/atari400.html http://oldcomputers.net/atari800.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 8 12:26:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 11:26:30 -0700 Subject: govliq: mux and 26MB BAE/xerox hard drives Message-ID: I don't recognize the hard drives depicted here; they look like cartridge drives? Govliq says they're all in brand new condition. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 8 12:37:10 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 10:37:10 -0800 Subject: My second Mac Message-ID: <45A28F56.3020501@bitsavers.org> >> Beyond that, you can easily spend more upgrading than a faster newer >> machine would cost you on the used market. That said... > > Nah, I'm just trying to figure out the Mac "culture". I want to get > my currently unused workstation monitor on the G3 and poke around a > bit. Forget about OS X then, and think about the evolution of a computer from a 128K 68000 through a G4 with a gigabyte of memory. There are still applications that will run on the last version of OS 9 that were written for the original Mac. Mac users would typically have many times the number of applications than a Windows user, mostly because most had no installation requirements other than dragging the app onto the system. Drivers and system extensions were easily added by putting them in the Extensions folder inside of System. The way some of them worked (patching into system calls) sometimes resulted in system conflicts. The biggest problem in the 68K Mac world was a holdover from the earliest days of trying to fit into a tiny memory footprint. The flat 68K address space was segmented to create position independent code chunks that could move around as the system compacted memory. Unfortunately, the data space was also segmented, so the APIs often had 64K restrictions on data areas. PPC Macs got rid of that, and went to a flat memory model, which made programming applications with large code/data footprints MUCH easier. The big problem with the MacOS was there really was no architecture. Features were tacked on, including things like two different shared library architecutres on PPC because they evolved through two different devlopment groups. In the end the API was a "Mactintosh Mystery House", with dead-end APIs, and APIs that were bloated and ridiculously over-engineered (Comm Toolbox, for instance). Adherence to backwards compatibility really was why it was impossible for Apple to come up with a replacement for MacOS until someone (Jobs) finally cut the cord. This was impossible from the bottom up, no one at the top was willing to have old applications break en mass. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 8 12:40:06 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 12:40:06 -0600 Subject: govliq: mux and 26MB BAE/xerox hard drives References: Message-ID: <017301c73354$6b365220$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... >I don't recognize the hard drives depicted here; they look like > cartridge drives? Govliq says they're all in brand new condition. > > Woah :) Nice find :) DEC RK03 (or workalike) I believe, looks to be in minty fresh condition :) Jay West From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 8 12:36:55 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 11:36:55 -0700 Subject: govliq: HP servers -- does anyone recognize these? Message-ID: LOT (2) HP SPP31 SERVERS, PRODUCT NO A5081A/ A4830-63001. SN US10076726, US10076544. I don't recognize the cabinet, but it appears to have been stripped of all skins. Beefy power inputs though! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 8 12:57:59 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 10:57:59 -0800 Subject: govliq: mux and 26MB BAE/xerox hard drives Message-ID: <45A29437.4040101@bitsavers.org> > DEC RK03 (or workalike) I believe, looks to be in minty fresh > condition :) Diablo series 30 would be 2.5mb. Can't really tell from the pic of the box, but if they are in the 20mb range they would be Diablo series 40 5440 style with one fixed, one removable. 24 sector would work on TI and Interdata. From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Jan 8 13:02:46 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:02:46 -0600 Subject: Mac OS 9- browsers In-Reply-To: <200701070428.l074Sx3l082910@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200701070428.l074Sx3l082910@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 22:28 -0600 1/6/07, Zane wrote: > Of course if you want to be able to surf from this system, >Mac OS X is pretty much a requirement. There is no modern web >browser for Mac OS 9. Were it not for the adjective "modern", I'd say: http://www.icab.de/ (as has been mentioned) http://www.opera.com/ (find Version 6.0.3 on their website) With the "modern" it becomes a bit more debateable. They do still run, though. -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 8 13:03:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 12:03:12 -0700 Subject: govliq: mux and 26MB BAE/xerox hard drives In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 08 Jan 2007 10:57:59 -0800. <45A29437.4040101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <45A29437.4040101 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > DEC RK03 (or workalike) I believe, looks to be in minty fresh > > condition :) > > Diablo series 30 would be 2.5mb. Can't really tell from the pic of the > box, but if they are in the 20mb range they would be Diablo series 40 > 5440 style with one fixed, one removable. 24 sector would work on TI and > Interdata. Not that you can trust the description (they're often inaccurate on govliq), but it says "SINGLE DISC REMOVABLE CARTRIDGE,406 TRACKS,24 SECTORS PER TRACK,224 MILLION BITS CAPACITY,DISC ROTATION,1500 RPM,AVERAGE LATENCY" I was using 26MB from the "224 MILLION BITS CAPACITY" remark. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon Jan 8 13:11:12 2007 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 13:11:12 -0600 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <45A20A45.720.147FB46D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: There are a number of NIB PCMCIA 3.5" floppy drives on eBay now, generally $10 or less. Just search for "PCMCIA Floppy Drives". I don't know if they can be converted for use with a 5.25" drive, though. Bob >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? >Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 09:09:25 -0800 > >At the expense of stating the obvious, there's always the >MicroSolutions 5.25 Backpack drive, if your laptop has a parallel >printer port. But they're getting hard to find. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > _________________________________________________________________ Type your favorite song.? Get a customized station.? Try MSN Radio powered by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 From jwest at ezwind.net Mon Jan 8 13:17:32 2007 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:17:32 -0600 Subject: getting started with your new HP 21xx Message-ID: <018601c73359$a7f8e100$6500a8c0@BILLING> It just dawned on me something that might be helpful... a quick list of the most relevant documents to look at first when you get your first HP 21xx box. Fortunately, Al at bitsavers has made a concerted effort to put up docs for these boxes, there's a lot of good info there - probably everything you'd ever need. Here are the manuals I'd suggest getting first.... For the hardware..... If you read nothing else, here's the one to read even for folks just curious what these boxes are. Very short (50 pages), quick read, but informative: Whoops... wow, apparently there's no 21MX E or 21MX F short user guide on bitsavers. Wierd! So there's no step by step tutorial on how to use the front panel, etc. My best suggestion - skim the 2100A user guide. The front panel is much different, but the instruction set (a subset), I/O architecture, etc. is pretty much the same. The main difference to keep in mind... the MX's have a store button. Use it :) 2100's autostore if you incM or decM or select a different register (select the register you're already viewing to revert contents). The 2100 doesn't have loader roms cause it's core (so MX's have a IBL button to load a given rom into upper ram). I need to get Al a 21MX E or F short user guide to put up on bitsavers, that's a big omission. The 2100 variant is here: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/21xx/02100-90001_2100refManDec71.pdf this will get you the basics of your machine. Next essential reading to learn about setting up & configuring your machine... http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/12992-90001_loaderRomsApr86.pdf describes what loader roms are, what they do, how to install them, including source code listings. Essential for learning all about booting your machine. http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/12791-90001_fwInstRef_Feb86.pdf describes what firmware exists, what boards exist for you to install firmware in to, and how to do so. Includes not just firmware options, but base set firmware as well. You'll need this, it's the second thing to check if your machine doesn't boot. http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/5955-4310_stdPerfMem_Apr79.pdf describes the different memory boards & controllers & accesories, how to configure/jumper them and how to install them. Standard Performance memory only. One of the first things to check and change. http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/5955-4311_highPerfMem_Dec83.pdf same as above, but for High Performance memory. For any interface boards in the rear of the computer, see the manuals here: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/21xx/interfaces/ Now... the heavy duty everything you could possibly need in the future definitive reference.... http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/ For diagnostics: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/Diagnostics/02100-90157_Oct-1980.pdf This is the diagnostic configurator manual. It's the program used to load all other diagnostics. Learn this one well. Note - older diagnostics exist that are standalone. Some (not all) standalones CAN run under the diagnostic configurator. I'd suggest just learning the configurator and sticking to the diagnostics which run under it (all are available). http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/Diagnostics/ is the main directory of diagnostic manuals. Each diagnostic has it's own manual. Note: HP diagnostics are (apparently) unlike DEC diagnostics for the 11/45 (my own experience, not neccessarily universal fact). The HP diagnostics work, and work well/right/AsDocumented. They are extremely thorough. They ARE the best and recommended test for if a given card is working properly before proceeding to attempt running anything else. If a card doesn't pass diags, DONT bother trying to use an OS/application to test it. If the card doesn't seem to work with the application, the diags ARE the best way to troubleshoot. They often tell you what section (or chip) on a card is suspect. The diag manuals on bitsavers aren't the complete set, nor the latest set. I have been working for some time on putting together a CD that contains the entire latest (last) diagnostic library for HP1000 stuff, including all manuals, source code, object code, and assembler output listings (with memory addresses). That will fix the above lack of info :) Once you have general 2100/21MX knowledge under your belt from the above, if there is just one manual you should keep handy... it's the ce handbook. It's a quick-reference cheat sheet on most of the above manuals. At least in the CE handbooks I have, little attempt is made to explain anything. It's just quick reference for jumpers, installation, etc. Note that it also includes quick reference information for many operating systems & software. The link is: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/5950-3767_M-E-F_CEhbk_Jul84.pdf For operating systems: TSB: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/2000TSB/ contains the starting point for the documentation you'll need/want. RTE: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/RTE-IV/ http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/RTE-IVB/ http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/RTE-6VM/ HP-IPL/OS: http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/ Hope this all helps! Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 8 13:30:11 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:30:11 -0600 Subject: govliq: HP servers -- does anyone recognize these? References: Message-ID: <01bf01c7335b$6b5d8500$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > > LOT (2) HP SPP31 SERVERS, PRODUCT NO A5081A/ A4830-63001. SN > US10076726, US10076544. > > I don't recognize the cabinet, but it appears to have been stripped of > all skins. Beefy power inputs though! That would appear to be a Superdome or parts thereof. HP's million$-a-piece minimum cost supercomputer. Was their ultimate top of the line a few years back, may even still be. Simply awesome box :) Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 8 13:32:11 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:32:11 -0600 Subject: govliq: mux and 26MB BAE/xerox hard drives References: <45A29437.4040101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <01d701c7335b$b3dc0590$6500a8c0@BILLING> I had written... > > DEC RK03 (or workalike) I believe, looks to be in minty fresh > > condition :) To which Al replied... > Diablo series 30 would be 2.5mb. Can't really tell from the pic of the > box, but if they are in the 20mb range they would be Diablo series 40 5440 > style with one fixed, one removable. 24 sector would work on TI and > Interdata. Hey, I have seen these on PDP-11/03 boxes. Can someone tell me if the DEC RK03 was actually a rebadged Diablo 30? Jay West From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 8 14:08:08 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 12:08:08 -0800 Subject: RK02/RK03 Message-ID: <45A2A4A8.1070409@bitsavers.org> > Can someone tell me if the DEC > RK03 was actually a rebadged Diablo 30? RK02 == Diablo 31 with 1100bpi heads (1.25mb) RK03 == Diablo 31 with 2200bpi heads (2.5mb) There was also an RK01, used with the RK8 contoller but it is not a Diablo drive. From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 8 14:25:32 2007 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:25:32 +0200 Subject: MVME parts in Philadelphia and elsewhere Message-ID: Hi All, I'm going to Philadelphia, PA for two weeks. I collect Motorola MVME computers and I would like to find some spares to take back to Europe. Do You know any places near and good places even far to find classic computer parts. I have a weekend to spare and I have a car. BR, Matti. _________________________________________________________________ Uutiset ja kasvot uutisten takaa. MSN Search, t?yden palvelun hakukone. http://search.msn.fi From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 8 14:37:52 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 12:37:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: My second Mac In-Reply-To: <45A28F56.3020501@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Jan 8, 7 10:37:10 am" Message-ID: <200701082037.l08KbqV9022400@floodgap.com> > There are still applications that will run on the last version of OS 9 > that were written for the original Mac. Heck, I have a game I remember playing on the Mac Plus that works fine on my G5 under Classic. That's compatibility! (ZeroGravity, a game I spent hours playing -- still need to port this to the Commodore 64.) > Adherence to backwards compatibility really was why it was impossible > for Apple to come up with a replacement for MacOS until someone (Jobs) > finally cut the cord. This was impossible from the bottom up, no one at > the top was willing to have old applications break en mass. Even so, backwards compatibility is extraordinarily good, even for apps that are not Carbon. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct. -- classiccmp From gklinger at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 14:59:00 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 15:59:00 -0500 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: References: <45A20A45.720.147FB46D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: What about taking an external USB 3.5" floppy drive and connecting a 5.25" drive to the interface that is being used for the 3.5" drive? It seems like it should work. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 8 15:08:30 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 14:08:30 -0700 Subject: govliq: HP servers -- does anyone recognize these? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 08 Jan 2007 13:30:11 -0600. <01bf01c7335b$6b5d8500$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <01bf01c7335b$6b5d8500$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote... > > > > LOT (2) HP SPP31 SERVERS, PRODUCT NO A5081A/ A4830-63001. SN > > US10076726, US10076544. > > > > I don't recognize the cabinet, but it appears to have been stripped of > > all skins. Beefy power inputs though! > > That would appear to be a Superdome or parts thereof. HP's million$-a-piece > minimum cost supercomputer. Was their ultimate top of the line a few years > back, may even still be. Simply awesome box :) Is this some sort of outgrowth of the Convex acquisition, or is it homebrew business built within HP? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 8 15:11:23 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 14:11:23 -0700 Subject: govliq: mux and 26MB BAE/xerox hard drives In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 08 Jan 2007 13:32:11 -0600. <01d701c7335b$b3dc0590$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: By the way, if someone buys this lot for the drives I would be interested in learning about the MUXes :-). It looks like they might be serial communications line multiplexors and I would be interested in that. Cool looking enclosure, at least. I always liked that military style cable connector where you know the cable isn't coming loose short of a direct hit to the equipment :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 8 15:12:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:12:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <702972.65317.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> > What about taking an external USB 3.5" floppy drive > and connecting a > 5.25" drive to the interface that is being used for > the 3.5" drive? It > seems like it should work. Maybe I didn't dismantle my usb unit (Mad-dog) enough. I only see 4 wires. I was lead to believe most of these things are indeed "real" floppies anyway, but I'll have to do more inspection. "At the expense of stating the obvious, there's always the MicroSolutions 5.25 Backpack drive, if your laptop has a parallel printer port. But they're getting hard to find." But that's an entirely different interface (I'm thunking). I do remember trying Teledisk or ImageDisk w/the usb unit and it was a no-go. "There are a number of NIB PCMCIA 3.5" floppy drives on eBay now, generally $10 or less. Just search for "PCMCIA Floppy Drives". I don't know if they can be converted for use with a 5.25" drive, though." Right, but again I doubt these things would even respond to INT 10h and 27h, much less a lower level of access. Even my piddly little hacked up utilities from by gone days would be useless with such a unit. Correct me if I'm wrong though. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 8 15:16:09 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:16:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070108131510.G95546@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Robert Feldman wrote: > There are a number of NIB PCMCIA 3.5" floppy drives on eBay now, generally > $10 or less. Just search for "PCMCIA Floppy Drives". I don't know if they > can be converted for use with a 5.25" drive, though. I think that we've been there before. Has anybody seen a PCMCIA or USB drive that IS convertible? From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 15:22:40 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:22:40 -0800 Subject: getting started with your new HP 21xx In-Reply-To: <018601c73359$a7f8e100$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <018601c73359$a7f8e100$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90701081322q2febc0b7sa2d0a73e22d0eff3@mail.gmail.com> >From my own 2117F experience, one if the first things to check is whether or not the 21MX power supply has the battery backup option. If it does and you don't have a battery backup box attached the CPU will not start without a battery box eliminator plug, which is just an 820ohm resistor across two of the pins in the battery connector plug. I believe the symptom is that all of the front panel LEDs are lit and state lit on power on with the battery backup option installed and with no battery box connected. If the CPU does power up ok and there is memory installed, the low bits of the display should count for every 32kw of memory that is installed and tested. One of the manuals explains that, and what to toggle in to run the test again and in loop mode. Jay, if you do get a collections of diags on CD I would very much like a copy. I have some diags on 2645A tapes, but they have almost all fallen about now. -Glen From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 8 15:25:02 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:25:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted In-Reply-To: <20070108183002.3683.qmail@web50507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <252553.16185.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> yep, I used the 400 in high school also. Hated those things. Utterly turned me off to computers until I left hs altogether. They may have had some 800's too. I would like an 800 if anyone has one surplus to their needs. Come to think of it I'd like the 130 also, plus any 520/1040 units (working or not) that I could find. Were these software compatible with the later 800xl and those? What about cartridge compatible? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 8 15:27:39 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:27:39 -0500 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <702972.65317.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <200701082130.l08LUsvh023515@mail1.magma.ca> > But that's an entirely different interface (I'm > thunking). I do remember trying Teledisk or ImageDisk > w/the usb unit and it was a no-go. ImageDisk controls (and expects) a 765 family diskette controller directly - via corresponding hardware I/O addresses, DMA channels and interrupts - This is necessary in order to be able to analize, read and write non-DOS format disks. It will *NOT* communicate with a "smart" device connected via USB or any other non-765 interface - it would be quite likely that such a device would not be able to understand non-FAT formats, formats where the sector size is not 512, formats where sectors are not numbered 1-(expected number for media), or sector/head numbers recorded on the disk don't correspond to what PCs think they should be.... I have a Eurocom laptop with a connecter to which connects an external 5.25" drive enclosure - this appears as a standard floppy drive connected via the FDC - such an arrangement should work OK with ImageDisk - I'm pretty sure there are other older laptops with similar external drive schemes. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 8 15:48:18 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:48:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: References: <45A20A45.720.147FB46D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070108134603.K95546@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Golan Klinger wrote: > What about taking an external USB 3.5" floppy drive and connecting a > 5.25" drive to the interface that is being used for the 3.5" drive? It > seems like it should work. We have been there before. It seems reasonable that the USB circuitry would then connect to the SA400 like circuitry of the drive. BUT,... USB drives have "fully integrated" circuitry, with one board for both the USB interface AND the floppy, and do NOT contain a normal drive. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 8 15:48:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 13:48:21 -0800 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <702972.65317.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <702972.65317.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45A24BA5.12968.157F19FB@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2007 at 13:12, Chris M wrote: > Right, but again I doubt these things would even > respond to INT 10h and 27h, much less a lower level of > access. Even my piddly little hacked up utilities from > by gone days would be useless with such a unit. > Correct me if I'm wrong though. Hmmm, I don't know of a single floppy drive that responds to the video interrupt (10H) or Terminate-and-Stay-Resident (27H). I assume you mean INT 13H (BIOS Read/Write) and INT 25H and 26H (MS-DOS read/write logical sector). We did a special project for the backpack that gave one low level access to the drive under both DOS and Win9x, but never received much of a demand for it, except for a few custmers needing to read NEC 9801 CP/M formats on their laptops. As far as USB drives--forget low-level access. These things have firmware that understands 512x9x2x80, 512x18x2x80 and 1024x8x77 "conventional" formats, but nothing else. Conversation with the drive resembles ATAPI or SCSI protocols; i.e. relative sector (LBA) addressing. While there are USB MS-DOS drivers, don't expect anything like INT 13H access. Some very old USB drives had a separate controller board that talked to a conventional drive; depending on the firmware, they might be able to talk to 5.25" 1.2MB drives, but don't hold your breath. All later 3.5" drives have the interface integrated with the drive electronics, so no hope there. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 8 15:52:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 13:52:37 -0800 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <200701082130.l08LUsvh023515@mail1.magma.ca> References: , <702972.65317.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, <200701082130.l08LUsvh023515@mail1.magma.ca> Message-ID: <45A24CA5.13524.15830311@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2007 at 16:27, dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > I have a Eurocom laptop with a connecter to which connects > an external 5.25" drive enclosure - this appears as a standard > floppy drive connected via the FDC - such an arrangement > should work OK with ImageDisk - I'm pretty sure there are other > older laptops with similar external drive schemes. That Grid 1040 I sold on ePay had such an interface. However, the hard drive interface was like nothing I'd ever seen before or since. I wonder how many modern laptop/notebooks even have the FDC controller inside. As I mentioned, the Backpack can be talked to (if you've got the right driver) at low level--it has a NSC 8477, a bit of SRAM and a microcontroller in it that does nothing but relay the commands and data to the 8477. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 8 15:59:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 13:59:22 -0800 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <20070108131510.G95546@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20070108131510.G95546@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45A24E3A.11719.158930D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2007 at 13:16, Fred Cisin wrote: > I think that we've been there before. > Has anybody seen a PCMCIA or USB drive that IS convertible? I think some of the very first USB drives that came out had the interface electronics on a separate board--at least I think I've some chip docs here for such a controller. But I've not seen one of these in person. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 8 16:03:14 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:03:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <45A24BA5.12968.157F19FB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <88696.5476.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Jan 2007 at 13:12, Chris M wrote: > > > Right, but again I doubt these things would even > > respond to INT 10h and 27h, much less a lower > level of > > access. Even my piddly little hacked up utilities > from > > by gone days would be useless with such a unit. > > Correct me if I'm wrong though. > > Hmmm, I don't know of a single floppy drive that > responds to the > video interrupt (10H) or Terminate-and-Stay-Resident > (27H). Hmmm, well let's just say there's still a few things out there you haven't seen yet LOL LOL. As an aside, what would it take to alter a *much referably* HD 5.25" drive to work as a GCR drive? I know I'm oversimplifying the issues, but the basic difference is that the spindle motor is driven at different speeds in a gcr unit, while only 1 speed in a standard drive. And this is according to what cylinder it's reading/writing to. Hmm, what about some sort of sensor to indicate where the head is, and the voltage to the motor is bumped up accordingly? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 8 16:04:31 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:04:31 -0600 Subject: getting started with your new HP 21xx References: <018601c73359$a7f8e100$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1e1fc3e90701081322q2febc0b7sa2d0a73e22d0eff3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <02e101c73370$fabf1910$6500a8c0@BILLING> Glen wrote... > From my own 2117F experience, one if the first things to check is > whether or not the 21MX power supply has the battery backup option. Glen is spot on... that's the number one most common reason a system won't power up (or I should say, won't run - it'll still power up). Number two reason is probably incorrectly configured memory (controller, memory boards, or MEM module), including the very likely possibility that the large ribbon cable which connects memory to the controller isn't seated well or making good contact. Third reason is missing or improperly configured microcode (FAB, FEM, WCS, UCS, or mainboard jumpers), including the possibility that the FAB/mainboard/FEM cable isn't seated well or making good contact. If the system was delivered exactly as it was previously used without having been scrounged for parts or poked at by non-HPaware playbabies, the above list is wrong, there are more likely causes of failure. > If it does and you don't have a battery backup box attached the CPU > will not start without a battery box eliminator plug, which is just an > 820ohm resistor across two of the pins in the battery connector plug. Viewing the battery connector plug from the rear, there are three rows of three pin sockets. You want your 820 ohm resistor across the outer pins of the middle row. Another thing I should mention... remove the power supply before you power up the machine. Very simple/quick to do, it was made for quick/easy replacement. Inside the supply was the ubiquitous black foam. It has probably crumbled and/or turned to goo. Take off the cover of the power suppy after removal and get rid of all that foam with a vacuum cleaner. Clean any messes (contact cleaner, toothbrush, etc.) up. Some advise just closing it back up at this point. I don't - that foam was glued to the top lid for very good reason. Those 4 or 5 power supply cards inside the supply - you do NOT want them touching the top of the metal cover :) Less impressive but equally destructive is if they come loose which the foam also prevents. I cut a piece of foam from air conditioner filter material (either 1/8 inch thick or 1/4 thick or maybe 1/2?, I forget what the power supply foam is but I think it's the thicker stuff) to replace it. I scrape off the old foam on the cover with a putty knife and clean to bare metal with goo-gone. Then I tape off the right size area and spray with adhesive spray. Remove the tape then press the air filter on. After it dries, button up the supply and reinstall it - you're good for another 20+ years :) > I believe the symptom is that all of the front panel LEDs are lit and > state lit on power on with the battery backup option installed and > with no battery box connected. I'd need to dig into the microcode test routines, but there MAY be other diagnostic selftests that could display before the battery backup check error (which is exactly as Glen states). > If the CPU does power up ok and there is memory installed, the low > bits of the display should count for every 32kw of memory that is > installed and tested. One of the manuals explains that, and what to > toggle in to run the test again and in loop mode. 21MX M or E reference guide, which I can't find on bitsavers :) However, here's the scoop. In microcode there is a power up self test, and (separately) tests for FPP and SIS microcode. Let's deal with the self test microcode first. There's 3 self tests. Test 1 tests basic registers and functions, no memory. If this test fails, all display register bits, all indicator bits, and the over flow register will be on. Test 2 is a basic (read, doesn't catch many errors) memory test but ONLY the first 32kw of memory. This test is nondestructive. Errors usually show a parity error light, set all display registers and indicator bits, and clears the overflow register. A register is expected data, B register is bad data, M register is failing address. Note that the cpu front panel lights do NOT increment/count up like Glen mentioned during this test. Test 3 is a more comprehensive memory test, and it tests all memory installed not just 32kw. Each 32kw passing the test gets the display register incremented by one. Errors are reported the same as test 2, except the S register shows which 32kw block failed. Note that upon cold powerup, tests 1 and 3 are run automatically. That's it. No other tests. Note also, that kinda behind the scenes - anytime you press the IBL button to load a loader rom into ram, tests 1 and 2 are automatically run first. That's why it's labled IBL/TEST. You can also run tests 1 and 3 manually without powering on/off the machine. Set P register to 0, A register to 100000. Set the S register to whatever value you want memory filled with. Press PRESET. If you want to loop the diagnostic, set the LOCK/OPERATE switch under the front panel to LOCK, otherwise continue on. Press INSTR STEP and the diagnostic runs (and loops if lock switch set). If diag is looping, stop it by putting LOCK/OPERATE switch to OPERATE. To test the FPP, set 105004 in A register. Put 0 in P register and press PRESET. If overflow is on now, stop and go directly to the FPP installation/service manual. If overflow is not on, press INSTR STEP. A display of 102077 means all is well with FPP. To test the SIS, set 105477 in A register, 0 in P register. PRESET, then INSTR STEP. 102077 is good pass. FYI - these addresses/procedures aren't magic, they are just loading A register with an instruction from the user instruction group (used to call microcode). Then setting the P register to address 0 - the A register is addressible as memory address zero, and starting execution. > Jay, if you do get a collections of diags on CD I would very much like > a copy. I have some diags on 2645A tapes, but they have almost all > fallen about now. Actually, I have this project all done eons ago... except for just one or two or three diagnostics aren't in absolute format! There's just 3 or less I think that are actually in relocatable format. Yes, I know how bizarre that is. But what it means is that the assembler listing for just those few diagnostics isn't particularly helpful. On all other diags, you can look at the halting address (or single step) and then look as the asm listing and see exactly what's going on. Not so if the program is relocatable. One of the listmembers took the diag source for these oddball relocatable ones and assembled it for me and produced a load map. This makes it fairly easy (with the extra step of adding the map's offset to the relocatable (from address zero) listing) to figure out where you are. So, this compilation of "the ultimate diagnostic cd reference" should be available soon. Jay From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 8 16:12:04 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:12:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <45A24E3A.11719.158930D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070108221205.18662.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> is anyone familiar with the P1/P2 Thinkpads? My *busted* 560e has an external...well everything actually. It probably has close to 34 pins on the floppy connector. The 380z *also busted* has an internal unit. I wouldn't be adverse to going inside and routing the connections to the outside world. But even if a suitable controller/drive combination were to be found, there's still the possibility that it will be very discriminating w/it's affections. I tried, and tried, to get ID to work with 2 boxes over the weekend (the ones I had on hand). It didn't like neither a generic 486 (although that controller could have been flaky), nor a generic Cyrix MII which has never let me down otherwise. My frustrations led me to ask the question... If anyone has a small batch of working ISA floppy/ide controllers they don't want to hang onto, I'm interested. --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Jan 2007 at 13:16, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I think that we've been there before. > > Has anybody seen a PCMCIA or USB drive that IS > convertible? > > I think some of the very first USB drives that came > out had the > interface electronics on a separate board--at least > I think I've some > chip docs here for such a controller. > > But I've not seen one of these in person. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 8 16:14:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:14:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <88696.5476.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <88696.5476.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070108140812.F95546@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Chris M wrote: > > Hmmm, I don't know of a single floppy drive that > > responds to the > > video interrupt (10H) or Terminate-and-Stay-Resident > > (27H). > > Hmmm, well let's just say there's still a few things > out there you haven't seen yet LOL LOL. When it comes to floppy drives, if neither Chuck nor I have EVER SEEN one, then you are not going to find one available. > As an aside, what would it take to alter a *much > referably* HD 5.25" drive to work as a GCR drive? I > know I'm oversimplifying the issues, but the basic > difference is that the spindle motor is driven at > different speeds in a gcr unit, while only 1 speed in > a standard drive. THAT is the LEAST important difference! You need different "encoding" circuitry for the disk controller. > And this is according to what > cylinder it's reading/writing to. Hmm, what about some > sort of sensor to indicate where the head is, and the > voltage to the motor is bumped up accordingly? You don't even need to play silly games with motor speed (especially NOT "bumping up voltage"!) You can handle the same differences by altering the data transfer rate (which ALSO will not respond well to "bump up the voltage".) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 8 16:40:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:40:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <20070108140812.F95546@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <725090.21240.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > When it comes to floppy drives, if neither Chuck nor > I have EVER SEEN one, > then you are not going to find one available. sure sure. You just wait. I'll find you one. > You need different "encoding" circuitry for the disk > controller. I should have mentioned I wasn't intending to use such a monster with a pc. Macs do the gcr thing, but they don't usually have 5.25" drives. I did a bit or reading, and am led to ask if the encoding couldn't be handled in software. > You don't even need to play silly games with motor > speed > (especially NOT "bumping up voltage"!) O man what are you telling me. I have a desktop cnc mill that has a variable speed dc motor. If I want more rpms I just pump in more emfs. 70, 80, 90 volts. That kind of juice will get that puny drive to comply LOL LOL LOL LOL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 8 16:43:22 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:43:22 -0500 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <45A24CA5.13524.15830311@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200701082130.l08LUsvh023515@mail1.magma.ca> Message-ID: <200701082246.l08MkaPU004252@mail3.magma.ca> > As I mentioned, the Backpack can be talked to (if you've got the > right driver) at low level--it has a NSC 8477, a bit of SRAM and a > microcontroller in it that does nothing but relay the commands and > data to the 8477. Are there any available specs for this ...? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Jan 8 16:46:56 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:46:56 -0500 Subject: HP 21MX/F and OS choices (was Lookee what I just got!) References: <1168070487.4220.19.camel@linux.site> <011801c73348$a09e76b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <000b01c73376$e7af4790$0100a8c0@screamer> Thanks for the HP-IPL/OS plugs Jay, Here is the fastest known method to bootstrap something useful on any HP1000 series CPU, be that a 2114 with 4K of core up to a 2117F with maximum memory: First off you need to identify your loader ROM's, there are up to 4 of them on a 21MX processor. Core memory machines of course do not use loader roms, you toggle the loader code directly into memory. Hopefully you will have either the 264x terminal loader, or (better, but less common) the paper tape loader. Some documentation claims that the paper tape loader was standard on all E-series machines. Not true, that was written by Engineering before Marketroids started talking with customers. If you don't have the loader rom's you want, no big problem they are available from list members. Ok, next look at what I/O boards you have. The paper tape reader can be used with: Microcircuit I/F GND TRUE I/O + TRUE I/O +8 bit duplex register +16 bit duplex register And several other less common interface boards as well. The 264x 'terminal' boot rom can be used with the super-common BACI board, but it cannot be used with any 12521-series serial interface boards. Now you should have some combination of loader rom and interface board that will talk to each other. Maybe you have no peripherals for your box, frankly that's not a problem. How the machine boots, the EASY way... The simplest bootable software is stored in HP's "ABS" format. This is a series of 8-bit bytes that holds an absolute binary program with memory address, block length, and checksum data. If your booting through the paper tape loader the HP will request a byte with a hardware strobe and wait for an 'ack' signal, read and process the byte, and either request another byte or halt with an error or success code in the S-register. Bytes will be read until the end of the ABS file is reached, or there is an address or checksum error. So the paper tape loader wants a string of 8-bit bytes, using a simple request-acknowledge protocol. The hardware signal DEVICE_COMMAND asserted requests a byte, setting the DEVICE_FLAG signal on the I/O board acknowledges the request, clearing the device command signal until another byte is requested. A simple hack could tie a TTL-level parallel I/O board to a PC's printer port, or a simple microcontroller can emulate a paper tape reader using an EPROM, flash, EEPROM, etc. Booting ABS files from an 8-bit parallel data source is exceedingly fast. It is in fact the single fastest way to load large ABS images, and you can stuff an O/S into memory faster than HP's own disk drives (given a fast source of bytes to read). If you happen to have the 264x loader and BACI interface combo you have a much simpler hardware job, but the loading process is a little more complex. Your still going to need to send a series of 8-bit bytes, but this time over a RS-232 interface. The 264x loader rom sets up the BACI board, then transmits an escape, then a lower case 'e'. This escape sequence tells an HP terminal to begin an 8-bit read of an ABS image stored on those little micro-cassette tapes. But the BACI board is a bit of a beast, there are lots of wires that need to be jumpered correctly in the I/O hood, and the board even has the ability to stall the CPU based on an external signal line. Exactly how this is all configured in an actual HP installation is slightly unclear to me at this time, however it is possible to send RS-232 data into the board slowly without any hardware handshaking. Normally 264x terminals use the handshaking lines, and the loader rom does set some control bits that suggest the booting process expects this to take place. But if the BACI board has been 'strapped' for a basic 3-line RS-232 interface without any handshaking you can listen for the escape-e and then start sending data in the serial format that's set by the I/O board jumpers (in the I/O hood, not on the board!). Pace the serial data so you don't overrun the CPU, and you will eventually halt at the end of the ABS file. This serial method is slow, and at some point someone needs to really poke around inside the code and the BACI interface manuals and figure out exactly what interface strapping and handshaking was used by HP when the loaded field diags and other software using this cute little tape drives (that almost never work anymore, until you fix the rollers and find that good media is unobtainium). With that work done, it may be practical to boot your HP over a serial port at a reasonable speed, but loading a large ABS file this way can take a very long time (as things are). I generally don't recommend the serial boot method due to its poor performance. Then again, I think its nothing to throw together a PIC and some I2C eeprom and build little paper tape reader and punch emulators, and I can burn copies of any loader rom you wish. All that aside, one of my HP's boots from a custom loader rom and an 8-gig IDE drive using a custom controller (so I clearly prefer the hardware solution, build your own peripheral devices). All the others have the ability to boot from an emulated tape reader. One can also boot from CS/80 disks, another has a 7960E. Ok, that's ~how~ to get these things up and running, now the hard part. What to run? If you have less than 8K words of memory: I recommend OCTAPUS-C. Stripped down IPL kernels exist for 4K machines, but its not very practical with less than 8K. IF you have 8K words only: I recommend HPBASIC. This is the 1968 stand-alone interpreter. Has very simple I/O requirements, and its possible to rebuild HP BASIC for non-standard I/O configurations. It supports a 'TTY' console, as well as a high speed paper tape reader, punch, and a printer. Requires a 12521-series console interface (HS TERM), does not support a BACI (well, yes, it will, when patched and run from virtual memory under IPL on a 21MX machine). If you have a 21MX machine. I recommend IPL (HP-IPL/OS). It was designed to bootstrap HP's lacking original peripherals, and its quite powerful. Its a (threaded) interpreter, a compiler, and has an assembler as well. Ideal for blinking lights and reverse engineering device drivers and undocumented I/O boards, etc. It supports all HP1000 CPU's up to, but not including the A-series. Modular and extensible, its even got file systems for disk and mag tape, even F-series floating point extensions, 12555 point-plot graphics via DCPC transfers, etc, etc. Or, you can run RTE, etc. Personally, I've never had the chance to run RTE, TSB, or any of the multi-user time share systems. The only reason I don't recommend these is due to my own lack of knowledge and experience. I 'cut my teeth' on HP's by pulling them out of scrap heaps and bootstrapping them with switches and lights. I've usually found HP1000's in automated test setups, and virtually never is 'data center' applications, so I tend to see these machines as being computers for Engineers. But clearly a lot of people had very different exposures to these machines, and see them through very different eyes. My high school had a PDP-8E that ran a 4-user stand-alone BASIC booted from paper tape, not some dual CPU HP rig! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jan 8 16:45:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 16:45:21 -0600 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <20070108221205.18662.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070108221205.18662.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45A2C981.7000702@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > is anyone familiar with the P1/P2 Thinkpads? My > *busted* 560e has an external...well everything > actually. Yes, I recently gave up my Thinkpad for a much faster, more modern laptop and am sort-of regretting it. The extra memory and CPU speed sure is nice, but I miss all those useful ports that the Thinkpad had :-( (modern system has no serial, no parallel, no floppy, and only one card slot - oh, and one of those God-awful touchpad things, and a keyboard that's about as good as a Sinclair Spectrum) > It probably has close to 34 pins on the floppy connector. My memory of when I was thinking of hacking a drive onto this is that it's a 'proper' floppy connector just with less ground lines, but that one of the control lines is the inverse of what would normally be expected (there's a hack in the Linux kernel I think to cope with this). Can't remember what the FDC reports itself to Linux as, but I don't think it'd be hard to add a 5.25" floppy drive to the machine - IBM seem to be far more compatible with equivalent desktop systems than most laptop manufacturers do. I gave up purely because I couldn't find a source of a plug to fit that tiny floppy connector. cheers Jules From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Jan 8 16:54:52 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:54:52 -0500 Subject: getting started with your new HP 21xx References: <018601c73359$a7f8e100$6500a8c0@BILLING><1e1fc3e90701081322q2febc0b7sa2d0a73e22d0eff3@mail.gmail.com> <02e101c73370$fabf1910$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <001301c73378$02d7fcf0$0100a8c0@screamer> All F-series machines did ship with battery backup power supplies. These can be replaced by the non-battery backup version, but its not 'stock' that way. If you don't have the battery backup box attached, you will not be able to select registers, the one sideways button will be inoperative. THE sign of life for a 21MX after power-up is the ability to select A, B, PC, etc using that switch. If that works you have at least 32K words of memory and a working CPU. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 5:04 PM Subject: Re: getting started with your new HP 21xx > Glen wrote... >> From my own 2117F experience, one if the first things to check is >> whether or not the 21MX power supply has the battery backup option. > Glen is spot on... that's the number one most common reason a system won't > power up (or I should say, won't run - it'll still power up). Number two > reason is probably incorrectly configured memory (controller, memory > boards, or MEM module), including the very likely possibility that the > large ribbon cable which connects memory to the controller isn't seated > well or making good contact. Third reason is missing or improperly > configured microcode (FAB, FEM, WCS, UCS, or mainboard jumpers), including > the possibility that the FAB/mainboard/FEM cable isn't seated well or > making good contact. If the system was delivered exactly as it was > previously used without having been scrounged for parts or poked at by > non-HPaware playbabies, the above list is wrong, there are more likely > causes of failure. > >> If it does and you don't have a battery backup box attached the CPU >> will not start without a battery box eliminator plug, which is just an >> 820ohm resistor across two of the pins in the battery connector plug. > Viewing the battery connector plug from the rear, there are three rows of > three pin sockets. You want your 820 ohm resistor across the outer pins of > the middle row. Another thing I should mention... remove the power supply > before you power up the machine. Very simple/quick to do, it was made for > quick/easy replacement. Inside the supply was the ubiquitous black foam. > It has probably crumbled and/or turned to goo. Take off the cover of the > power suppy after removal and get rid of all that foam with a vacuum > cleaner. Clean any messes (contact cleaner, toothbrush, etc.) up. Some > advise just closing it back up at this point. I don't - that foam was > glued to the top lid for very good reason. Those 4 or 5 power supply cards > inside the supply - you do NOT want them touching the top of the metal > cover :) Less impressive but equally destructive is if they come loose > which the foam also prevents. I cut a piece of foam from air conditioner > filter material (either 1/8 inch thick or 1/4 thick or maybe 1/2?, I > forget what the power supply foam is but I think it's the thicker stuff) > to replace it. I scrape off the old foam on the cover with a putty knife > and clean to bare metal with goo-gone. Then I tape off the right size area > and spray with adhesive spray. Remove the tape then press the air filter > on. After it dries, button up the supply and reinstall it - you're good > for another 20+ years :) > >> I believe the symptom is that all of the front panel LEDs are lit and >> state lit on power on with the battery backup option installed and >> with no battery box connected. > I'd need to dig into the microcode test routines, but there MAY be other > diagnostic selftests that could display before the battery backup check > error (which is exactly as Glen states). > >> If the CPU does power up ok and there is memory installed, the low >> bits of the display should count for every 32kw of memory that is >> installed and tested. One of the manuals explains that, and what to >> toggle in to run the test again and in loop mode. > 21MX M or E reference guide, which I can't find on bitsavers :) However, > here's the scoop. In microcode there is a power up self test, and > (separately) tests for FPP and SIS microcode. Let's deal with the self > test microcode first. There's 3 self tests. Test 1 tests basic registers > and functions, no memory. If this test fails, all display register bits, > all indicator bits, and the over flow register will be on. Test 2 is a > basic (read, doesn't catch many errors) memory test but ONLY the first > 32kw of memory. This test is nondestructive. Errors usually show a parity > error light, set all display registers and indicator bits, and clears the > overflow register. A register is expected data, B register is bad data, M > register is failing address. Note that the cpu front panel lights do NOT > increment/count up like Glen mentioned during this test. Test 3 is a more > comprehensive memory test, and it tests all memory installed not just > 32kw. Each 32kw passing the test gets the display register incremented by > one. Errors are reported the same as test 2, except the S register shows > which 32kw block failed. Note that upon cold powerup, tests 1 and 3 are > run automatically. That's it. No other tests. Note also, that kinda behind > the scenes - anytime you press the IBL button to load a loader rom into > ram, tests 1 and 2 are automatically run first. That's why it's labled > IBL/TEST. You can also run tests 1 and 3 manually without powering on/off > the machine. Set P register to 0, A register to 100000. Set the S register > to whatever value you want memory filled with. Press PRESET. If you want > to loop the diagnostic, set the LOCK/OPERATE switch under the front panel > to LOCK, otherwise continue on. Press INSTR STEP and the diagnostic runs > (and loops if lock switch set). If diag is looping, stop it by putting > LOCK/OPERATE switch to OPERATE. To test the FPP, set 105004 in A register. > Put 0 in P register and press PRESET. If overflow is on now, stop and go > directly to the FPP installation/service manual. If overflow is not on, > press INSTR STEP. A display of 102077 means all is well with FPP. To test > the SIS, set 105477 in A register, 0 in P register. PRESET, then INSTR > STEP. 102077 is good pass. FYI - these addresses/procedures aren't magic, > they are just loading A register with an instruction from the user > instruction group (used to call microcode). Then setting the P register to > address 0 - the A register is addressible as memory address zero, and > starting execution. > >> Jay, if you do get a collections of diags on CD I would very much like >> a copy. I have some diags on 2645A tapes, but they have almost all >> fallen about now. > Actually, I have this project all done eons ago... except for just one or > two or three diagnostics aren't in absolute format! There's just 3 or less > I think that are actually in relocatable format. Yes, I know how bizarre > that is. But what it means is that the assembler listing for just those > few diagnostics isn't particularly helpful. On all other diags, you can > look at the halting address (or single step) and then look as the asm > listing and see exactly what's going on. Not so if the program is > relocatable. One of the listmembers took the diag source for these oddball > relocatable ones and assembled it for me and produced a load map. This > makes it fairly easy (with the extra step of adding the map's offset to > the relocatable (from address zero) listing) to figure out where you are. > So, this compilation of "the ultimate diagnostic cd reference" should be > available soon. > > Jay > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 8 16:59:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 14:59:27 -0800 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <725090.21240.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070108140812.F95546@shell.lmi.net>, <725090.21240.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45A25C4F.28401.15C031DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2007 at 14:40, Chris M wrote: > I should have mentioned I wasn't intending to use > such a monster with a pc. Macs do the gcr thing, but > they don't usually have 5.25" drives. I did a bit or > reading, and am led to ask if the encoding couldn't be > handled in software. That's why God made Catweasels. > O man what are you telling me. I have a desktop cnc > mill that has a variable speed dc motor. If I want > more rpms I just pump in more emfs. 70, 80, 90 volts. > That kind of juice will get that puny drive to comply There are three other good reasons to vary the data clock rate and not the spindle speed (bear with me here). The first is that keeping the spindle at the same RPM is much less likely to produce problems with ISV (instantaneous speed variation; an oxymoron if there ever was one) as the motor changes its speed to match the zone. The second is that the signal level induced in the read head is proportional to the square of the linear velocity of the medium. You're best off setting the motor to run where the signal level-vs- head characteristcs is best. The third is that tachometer design is much simpler. You have a fixed-frequency reference, such as a crystal or a ceramic resonator to work with, not some software approximation. And GCR doesn't imply varaible data rate or spindle speed. That Durango that I posted a web page on used GCR to good advantage without fooling with spindle speed (almost a 1MB on a 360K 5.25" diskette). I believe that Microtech marketed a PC that worked similarly (although I'd have to check to make sure). I think someone's written a Catweasel driver that fits almost 4MB on a 1.44MB diskette... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 8 16:59:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:59:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: useful 286 docs for OS creation? Message-ID: <327190.19874.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Intel-80286-Operating-Systems-Writers-Guide_W0QQitemZ270075876872QQihZ017QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I'm trying to think if I have one of these in my stash. I ain't paying $20 for it regardless. Anyone have one? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Jan 8 16:59:51 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:59:51 -0500 Subject: Photos of the EDAX PDP-11/23 box have been taken. References: <004201c7318d$93735f30$9204010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <001701c73378$b51e1c50$0100a8c0@screamer> I've taken photos of the Edax box. They are very large (~3.6 meg each), I have a dial-up connection (out here in the boonies). Can someone host these for all interested parties? I managed to dig deeper into this things chassis. The DIALOG controller does indeed have a half-height ST-506 hard disk drive attached. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 8 17:01:47 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 15:01:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <725090.21240.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <725090.21240.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070108144500.T95546@shell.lmi.net> > > When it comes to floppy drives, if neither Chuck nor > > I have EVER SEEN one, > > then you are not going to find one available. On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Chris M wrote: > sure sure. You just wait. I'll find you one. I hope so! Those rare beasts can be a lot of fun > > You need different "encoding" circuitry for the disk > > controller. > I should have mentioned I wasn't intending to use > such a monster with a pc. Macs do the gcr thing, but > they don't usually have 5.25" drives. I did a bit or > reading, and am led to ask if the encoding couldn't be > handled in software. IFF you have access to the drive between the drive and the disk controller. Regular, ordinary, standard 360K drives can be used to read and write Apple ][ diskettes when used with appropriate controllers, such as flux transition boards that interrupt the cable between the controller and drive. For PC, those include "Apple Turnover", "Matchpoint"?, Central Point "Option board", and "Catweasel". Read an entire track of pulses into a buffer, and write some relatively trivial software to "de-nibblize" the data into bytes. "Beneath Apple Dos" has some simple explanations of that particular GCR pattern. Macintosh GCR diskettes (400K/800K) require a wider range of data transfer rates, but can be done with the "DELUXE Option Board" or the "Catweasel". For Commodore diskettes, it is easiest to interface the Commodore external drive, with its built-in controller circuitry, to your computer. I'm partial to the MSD external after-market drive, because it also supports IEEE-488. Sirius/Victor 9000 diskettes should be doable with the flux transition boards, but last time that I needed to, there was a Victor 9000 handy, so we just shoved the data through the serial port. > O man what are you telling me. I have a desktop cnc > mill that has a variable speed dc motor. If I want > more rpms I just pump in more emfs. 70, 80, 90 volts. > That kind of juice will get that puny drive to comply > LOL LOL LOL LOL OK You just need to blow out the pesky motor speed control circuitry on the drive, without damaging the data circuitry. Shouldn't be TOO hard. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From peter.hofmann at chello.at Mon Jan 8 09:39:02 2007 From: peter.hofmann at chello.at (peter.hofmann at chello.at) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:39:02 +0100 Subject: ET-3400/ETA-3400 ROMs 444-24/444-51 Message-ID: <20070108153902.DIKJ18937.viefep20-int.chello.at@localhost> Hallo Paul, Found your link in a discussion forum on >> From: "James E Cosper" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 7:00 PM Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications I am searching very hard the images of ET-3400/ETA-3400 ROMs 444-24/444-51. I would be very happy to find someone, who has these equipment and can make a dump/punch to a file from the ROM address ranges 1400-23FF and F800-FFFF (MON>P 1400,23FFcr + MON>P F800-FFFFcr). May be you have any info for me? Many thanks in advance and best regards from Austria peter peter.hofmann at chello.at From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jan 8 10:42:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 11:42:50 -0500 Subject: Motorola 6800D2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A2748A.9060108@bellatlantic.net> Chuck Patten wrote: > Hi Allison, > > it was directed at the person who might have an excess 6800D2 unit. It was so long ago I had to wade through all the threads to see what it was about. I have a -D1 (rs232/20ma IO), if memory serves the D2 had a keypad and Leds for IO and experimentation? Never got heavy into Motorola CPUs. Allison > Unfortunately I never received your reply before today (I found it in a > Google search...) > > cheers, > chuck... > > > Allison ajp166 > at > bellatlantic.net > Mon Aug 15 21:30:44 CDT 2005 > > > * Previous message: volunteers > wanted > for list help :) > > * Next message: Compaq > SLT/286 > > > * Messages sorted by: [ > > date ] [ > > thread ] [ > > subject ] [ > > author ] > > _____ > > This is aimed at whom? > > > > > > > > Allison > > > > >> Subject: Motorola 6800D2 > >> From: "Chuck Patten" > > >> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:05:00 -0700 > >> To: > > > >> Noticed you had collected one from an old thread. Are you interested in > >> parting with it? > > > > >> cheers, > > >> chuck. > > > > > > > _____ > > > > * Previous message: volunteers > wanted > for list help :) > > * Next message: Compaq > SLT/286 > > > * Messages sorted by: [ > > date ] [ > > thread ] [ > > subject ] [ > > author ] > > _____ > > More information about > the cctalk mailing list > > From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Mon Jan 8 11:35:40 2007 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 10:35:40 -0700 (MST) Subject: Sun plastics In-Reply-To: <200701080539.AAA15879@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <566761d653d63dfcdd81c05e15788052@valleyimplants.com> <200701080539.AAA15879@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: I've used a product called plastic epoxy which includes a solvent to eat into the items being bonded for a better bond. I've had the best luck placing a small piece of metal (paperclip) across the break and spreading an 1/8" thick layer over that. Clint On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, der Mouse wrote: >> Has anyone had success fixing the plastic "alloy" that Sun uses in >> their cases? > > I don't know what Sun made their cases out of after they switched to > PCI. But the plastic they used in the -3/80-to-U2 era, I just use > ordinary epoxy on. It's worked well in every instance I've tried > (which is some four or five by now, generally machines that suffered > case damage before they reached my hands). > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 8 17:05:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 15:05:34 -0800 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <200701082246.l08MkaPU004252@mail3.magma.ca> References: <200701082130.l08LUsvh023515@mail1.magma.ca>, <45A24CA5.13524.15830311@cclist.sydex.com>, <200701082246.l08MkaPU004252@mail3.magma.ca> Message-ID: <45A25DBE.6638.15C5C9F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2007 at 17:43, dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: > Are there any available specs for this ...? Fat chance. Even though we were buying Backpacks by the case, we couldn't get MS to part with any information. I had to reverse- engineer the thing to write the driver. IMOHO, our driver worked better than theirs. :) I forgot to mention that there's a little bit of serial NOVRAM in the thing too where configuration information is kept. All Backpack floppy drives used the same controller board--and each board will support 2 floppy drives. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 8 17:15:16 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 15:15:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <45A2C981.7000702@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <129149.47836.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Yes, I recently gave up my Thinkpad for a much > faster, more modern laptop and > am sort-of regretting it. The extra memory and CPU > speed sure is nice, but I > miss all those useful ports that the Thinkpad had > :-( (modern system has no > serial, no parallel, no floppy, and only one card > slot - oh, they do have those usb to serial port contraptions, and I even see a usb to parallel port version on the shelves at Walmart (no I don't typically buy any gear there). I've to date only tried the serial thing, and didn't have alot of success, though it probably had nothing to do with it, just my funky cellphone or software that supposedly allows you to connect to the internet. All hope is not lost. > and one of those > God-awful touchpad things, and a keyboard that's > about as good as a Sinclair > Spectrum) And you don't find that preferable to that blasted track-point thing? The keyboard on my "old" Sony is better (i.e. bigger) then this Toshiba's, but there's no way I am ever going to pay that kind of money for anything ever again. Of course that was my first new lt, and in some way of looking at it first "new" computer, so I opted for the latest and greatest. A rather sweet 16" (non-panoramic) lcd. But it's in the pile at the moment waiting for a rainy day. Or make that week. Probably just a bad regulator board though. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 8 17:20:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 16:20:35 -0700 Subject: Photos of the EDAX PDP-11/23 box have been taken. In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 08 Jan 2007 17:59:51 -0500. <001701c73378$b51e1c50$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: In article <001701c73378$b51e1c50$0100a8c0 at screamer>, "Bob Shannon" writes: > I managed to dig deeper into this things chassis. The DIALOG controller > does indeed have a half-height > ST-506 hard disk drive attached. Is it really DIALOG? I thought it was DILOG? (no 'A') -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 8 17:25:11 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 17:25:11 -0600 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <20070108134603.K95546@shell.lmi.net> References: <45A20A45.720.147FB46D@cclist.sydex.com> <20070108134603.K95546@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070108172134.06b11580@mail> At 03:48 PM 1/8/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: >We have been there before. >It seems reasonable that the USB circuitry would then connect to the >SA400 like circuitry of the drive. >BUT,... >USB drives have "fully integrated" circuitry, with one board for both the >USB interface AND the floppy, and do NOT contain a normal drive. The recent thread titled "Archive your Apple floppies at the W6TRW swap meet, January 2007" was from Adam Goldman . He's making a USB device that will handle 5 1/4 formats and plans to handle 3 1/2, too. I exchanged a few messages with him and the answers were interesting. I'll refrain from quoting the private exchange, though. - John From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Jan 8 17:45:32 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 18:45:32 -0500 Subject: Photos of the EDAX PDP-11/23 box have been taken. References: Message-ID: <002d01c7337f$16c4d510$0100a8c0@screamer> Right, DILOG, my bad. I've got seven good digital photos, each 3.6 mb. One shows the keyboard and alpha-led console thingy. Another shows the front of the complete system stacked up. There is a photo of the rear of the main chassis, with all the I/O connectors, etc. One photo shows the EDAX side of the card cage, all built on DEC format quad SPC style boards down to the metal rib and extractors. There is a lot of hardware here, shielded ADC's, several memories for spectra and analysis, then the display boards, and the Q-bus interface. Another photo shows the PDP 11/23 section with the 50 pin FDD cable and the 34-pin and 26-pin ST506 interface and an assortment of DEC boards. A hi-res photo of the rear of the main chassis with the door open shows some serious hacking potential! Just over half the card cage is taken up by the special EDAX hardware, quad height modules. The 11/23 sits off to the side at the bottom of the backplane, you can see the Q-bus section clearly. Lots of room for more toys, AND the dual height backplane above the Q-bus is uncommitted, with a ground plane. Care to add another Q-bus? The last photo is a close-up of the rear of the disk drive bay, you can see part of the back of a full height 8-inch floppy, and a half height 5.25 inch HDD. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 6:20 PM Subject: Re: Photos of the EDAX PDP-11/23 box have been taken. > > In article <001701c73378$b51e1c50$0100a8c0 at screamer>, > "Bob Shannon" writes: > >> I managed to dig deeper into this things chassis. The DIALOG controller >> does indeed have a half-height >> ST-506 hard disk drive attached. > > Is it really DIALOG? I thought it was DILOG? (no 'A') > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jan 8 19:53:35 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 22:53:35 -0300 Subject: REPOSTING: Fw: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay (Why this message hadn't shown up???) Message-ID: <0e0b01c73391$04cd33e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 2:01 PM Subject: Re: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay >> Mac portrait displays are presumably similarly difficult to get >> replacement CRTs for, at least without realigning the yoke (I gather that >> most CRTs don't like a change in orientation, although I used to run a >> Sun colour display on its side a few years ago with no obvious >> ill-effects) >> For more conventional equipment I suspect that a swap is possible, >> providing knowledge of how to tweak the old circuits with the new tube is >> known. > > There is a very simple way of doing that. I though you all knew that, > and didn't want to be redundant, but here we go: > > - For mac portrait displays, I don't know. But I always had run tubes > on vertical on...ARCADE MACHINES! :D There is no problem on running B/W or > colour tubes on vertical, trust me. > > - Tube swap is very simple. You can assume that if the neck connector > fits, it will work. There are not many different tubes around, the problem > is the yoke. On B/W tubes you just take the yoke of the fried tube off and > put that on the new. No special alignment/convergence procedure necessary. > Just line up the text on screen moving the yoke cw/ccw and you are set. > For colour tubes, there are differences, here we go. > > - There are mainly three types of colour tubes: Mini-neck (the neck is > the diameter of a fat finger), Low focus and High focus. Of course, I'm > talking about inline masks. That Delta tubes (the RGB triad is a delta of > points, instead of three lines one besides other) I've never seen that > used in anything beyond televisions. If you have a monitor using a delta > mask tube, forget it! The adjustments you're going to do are too difficult > even to a profissional. > > - Low focus and High focus: You can see what kind is, looking at the > tube socket or the neck end of the tube. The high focus tube has a plastic > ring inserted on the pins, with a pin isolated from all the others. You > can see the same in the socket. Low focus doesn't have that, the end of > the tube has only pins, no plastic separator. > > - If you change colour tubes (talking about high focus and low focus), > usually it is just a matter of changing the tube and using the same > deflection set (yoke, convergence rings et al). E.G.: You have a monitor > like the Amiga 1084/S which uses a philips or samsung tube, Low focus > type, 15KHz yoke. Just buy any (!) television with the same > chacarteristics (low focus) and change it. Yes, you can use the same yoke. > Almost always the paramenters of the yoke are **the same**. The same > happens for VGA monitors. Usually, all vga monitors uses the same type of > yokes. YMMV, but this is the rule here. Please note: Yokes of 15 KHz > monitors and 31 KHz monitors (vga and above) are NOT intechangeable. But > the tubes ARE! > > - If you need to change the tube of, as an example, an EGA monitor, > you'll not find a complete set from a television of from an old vga > monitor, you'll have to change only the tube, keeping the deflection parts > (yoke, convergence ring) and will have to do all the convergence procedure > yourself. It is boring, it is hard, it is boring. But if you have no way > to find a suitable replacement tube, there you are. > > Ok, too much words, here we go for a simple list: > - If you have a B/W monitor, you can change the tube for ANY tube with > the same neck size and that fits phisically in place. Keep the yoke from > the old tube and put it on the new. You'll be only changing the glass > tube. > - If you have a COLOUR monitor, if the pixels are inline (sets of three > bars, RGB on screen), you can change for any tube of the SAME type, paying > attention if it is low focus or high focus. You can go some sizes above > and beyond. E.G: A 14" monitor can use a 17" or even a 20" tube, the > reverse is true. > - If you have a VGA or HIGHER frequency monitor, you need a tube with > yoke from a monitor of SIMILAR frequencies. Same as above > - If you have a 15 KHz monitor and only have a VGA tube, and > vice-versa, you can change THE TUBE, but will have to change the > deflection set (yoke/convergence rings) and do all the convergence > procedure yourself. Samsung manuals are great for teaching that, get the > Syncmaster III service manual and be free. > > Any questions, feel free to write me > > Greetings from Brazil, > Alexandre Souza > www.tabajara-labs.com.br From steerex at mindspring.com Mon Jan 8 18:58:44 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 19:58:44 -0500 Subject: HP 21MX/F and OS choices (was Lookee what I just got!) Message-ID: <01C7335F.67922850@MAGGIE> With that work done, it may be practical to boot your HP over a serial port at a reasonable speed, but loading a large ABS file this way can take a very long time (as things are). I generally don't recommend the serial boot method due to its poor performance. Then again, I think its nothing to throw together a PIC and some I2C eeprom and build little paper tape reader and punch emulators, and I can burn copies of any loader rom you wish. I found that serial booting the system to be the easiest way to get started. I don't recall which one but, one of the loader ROMS will work with the "high speed serial" card and read data off a serial link. There's no handshaking or error correction but, with a short RS232 link, passing data is not a problem. The ABS data format does provide checksum error detection so data errors will be detected. On many occasions, I have loaded HPBASIC and other programs over a serial link with absolutely no problem. The advantage to the serial link is that the only hardware required is a RS232 serial cable. Admittedly, it is not as fast as a parallel link but, who cares ;-) I had to write a PERL script to format the data before passing it to the 1000 but, that was fairly trivial. SeeYa, SteveRob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 8 19:14:13 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:14:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 1000 systems empty rack on ebay. In-Reply-To: <000b01c73376$e7af4790$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <685935.44173.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There's an HP 1000 system rack up on ebay right now, (290068544027). Just thing to hold all of those 21MX type systems in the last few posts. Bob From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Jan 8 19:26:15 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:26:15 -0500 Subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted In-Reply-To: <200701080040.l080e8Px005195@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200701080040.l080e8Px005195@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <45A2EF37.6000509@hawkmountain.net> Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: >> I take it the 800 was the successor to the 400, the >> 1st unit my fingers ever typed on. >> > > > No, the 800 was released at the same time as the 400. 400 was the "lower > end games computer", 800 was the "more serious" higher end computer. > > > Marty > The difference being RAM (16K 'non expandable for the 400, 16K expandable to 48K for the 800 (and even 64K via only 3rd party)), keyboard (membrane on the 400, real keyboard on the 800), and 1 cartridge slot on the 400 vs 2 on the 800 (although few cartridges ever exploited the 2nd slot). Other than that they had the same chips, same SIO, same # of joystick ports, etc. Oh... the 400 may not have had an external monitor connector (it has been a while since I used mine, but I know I never used it on a monitor, only a TV)... the 800 definately had one... plus some of the Atari's (can't recall if the 800 did or not) had separate chroma/luma on the monitor port (so, you could build a connection to s-video if you wanted to). My first home computer was a 400 (family couldn't afford the 800)... complete with 410 cassette unit (upgraded to 810 disk drive 6 mos to a year later). Had only 16K... but later went to 32K then 48K. Got a 1050 drive later. Had a Archiver chip in the 810, and a US Doubler in the 1050 (true double density and high speed drive transfers with SpartaDOS and MyDOS). Much later obtained an ATR8000 second hand too. Have fond memories of the 8bits... always wanted an Amiga... but didn't end up with one of those till a few years ago).... I like Jay Miner's work :-) (and Chuck Peddle's too). If your looking for a computer, I'd recommend an 800 with expanded RAM (a 3rd party 48K board is better than 3 Atari 16K modules... and if you end up with 3 Atari 16K modules, I've heard it is a good idea to remove the plastic casings from them for cooling if that has not already been done). After that I'd probably recommend an 800XL (although I have a fondness for 1200XLs too... anyone have one they care to part with) or even a 130XE. If you like the idea of some early 4 player games though... a 400 or 800 is required. -- Curt From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Jan 8 19:32:00 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 19:32:00 -0600 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <45A2C981.7000702@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20070108221205.18662.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <45A2C981.7000702@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45A2F090.3030003@brutman.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Yes, I recently gave up my Thinkpad for a much faster, more modern > laptop and am sort-of regretting it. The extra memory and CPU speed sure > is nice, but I miss all those useful ports that the Thinkpad had :-( > (modern system has no serial, no parallel, no floppy, and only one card > slot - oh, and one of those God-awful touchpad things, and a keyboard > that's about as good as a Sinclair Spectrum) To be fair, that's all available via the port replicator. And to get floppy, you have to swap out the CD-ROM - that's a good compromise for a laptop. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 8 21:25:36 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 21:25:36 -0600 Subject: HP 21MX/F and OS choices (was Lookee what I just got!) References: <01C7335F.67922850@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <00d301c7339d$d813b240$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Steve wrote.... >I found that serial booting the system to be the easiest way to get >started. I don't recall which one but, one of the loader ROMS will work >with the "high speed serial" card and read data off a serial link. I don't recall any loader rom working with a 12531 HS TERM board. I could well be wrong though, it's been WAY too long since I had my head firmly in HP-world. You CAN do it with a 264x (terminal) loader rom and a BACI board - as Bob S. said. If there is a loader rom that happens to work with the 12531 (ie, if the 12531 happens to have the same programmatic interface as say... the paper tape board...) I'd like to know. I just don't have time to go test it :) > There's no handshaking or error correction but, with a short RS232 link, > passing data is not a problem. The ABS data format does provide checksum > error detection so data errors will be detected. Careful there... checksum (mod256) does NOT catch transposition of bytes/words, missing all zero words/bytes, extra all zero words/bytes, and identical bits swapped between words/bytes. There is a length field included in the ABS format so that will catch missing or extra nulls. But it still won't catch the other errors. Jay From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 8 21:51:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:51:00 -0700 Subject: shelving storage solution Message-ID: A little while back I asked about shelving. Noone suggested anything. I found what seems to be a good solution at about half the cost of the next nearest offering, so I thought I'd share. I had been looking at wire rack shelving. Some nice wire racks on casters had been purchased at work from Costco, so I started looking at those. Costco had Safco "LAN Management System" racks 72"Wx29"Dx73"H for $340, 48"Wx29"Dx73"H for $250, 30"Wx29"Dx73"H for $205. (Casters were extra.) They also had Safco wire shelving: 4-shelf 36"Wx18"Dx72"H for $120. Online I could find racks for comparable prices or a little better (like $5) and comparable shelving for $80. I found nice 5-shelf wire racks at Walmart for $40 ea. 36"Wx16"Dx72"H, black finish. Each shelf is rated for 200 lbs evenly distributed. They have levelling screwcaps on the feet. "5 Shelf Multi-Purpose Rack" by NSF is what the box says. UPC 0 34886 00012 Using this shelving, I can stack 10 terminals vertically, 2 per shelf for 5 shelves, which is a tremendous space savings. I had to go to several Walmart locations in order to get enough shelving units, so I don't know if these are end of inventory "priced to move" units or not. This shelving is not currently listed on Walmart's web site, but each store in the Salt Lake City valley had the units. There is also a 4-shelf unit standing 52" high with 14" deep shelves. Most of the stores had these, with fewer having the taller 5-shelf variety. The shelf heights are adjustable in 1" increments and no tools are required for assembly or disassembly. They seem sturdy enough when fully loaded, but I wouldn't want to trip and fall into them and put a big transverse load on the whole system. It would most likely fall over and have a danger of crushing you with what I've got loaded into them. I certainly wouldn't want to have 10 13" CRTs dumped on me. I should probably secure them in case of earthquake... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 8 22:37:10 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 20:37:10 -0800 Subject: shelving storage solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >A little while back I asked about shelving. Noone suggested anything. >I found what seems to be a good solution at about half the cost of the >next nearest offering, so I thought I'd share. What I use is some wooden racks from "Fred Meyers". They're probably about 5' tall, and the best part is that they can used as "Racks" for running computers, or you can take multiple and build a row of shelves for storage. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 8 22:56:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:56:56 -0800 Subject: shelving storage solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A2B018.5427.170778D6@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2007 at 20:51, Richard wrote: > I found nice 5-shelf wire racks at Walmart for $40 ea. 36"Wx16"Dx72"H, > black finish. Each shelf is rated for 200 lbs evenly distributed. > They have levelling screwcaps on the feet. "5 Shelf Multi-Purpose Rack" > by NSF is what the box says. UPC 0 34886 00012 I didn't volunteer any information because it's been a few years since I acquired mine.at Costco (it doesn't seem to be in their online catalog now) and I've not seen any offered at any of the big- box stores locally. It's termed "Double Rivet Shelving". You put it together with a hammer--no bolts. Mine was purchased as two sections 36"Hx18"Dx36"W, and you join them with a shelf beam to form a 72"H unit. 5/8" HD particle board shelves. I don't recall the ratings, but I'd be surprised if it was less than 500 lbs per shelf. Here's some: http://nexel.superiorshelving.com/pages/rivetDouble.shtml These things are heavy, BTW; probably about 60+ lbs for each unit. Indestructible by way of normal human endeavor. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 8 23:04:41 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 21:04:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: shelving storage solution In-Reply-To: <45A2B018.5427.170778D6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45A2B018.5427.170778D6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070108210137.S12350@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > These things are heavy, BTW; probably about 60+ lbs for each unit. ISTR 128 lbs per box > Indestructible by way of normal human endeavor. I'm a little concerned about how the graham cracker would handle high humidity. I still use a bunch of those units. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 8 23:07:23 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 00:07:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Old D.E.C. Software and Hardware Manuals Available In-Reply-To: <8C900AA2FC35A02-14A4-2092@WEBMAIL-MC08.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C900AA2FC35A02-14A4-2092@WEBMAIL-MC08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <200701090508.AAA06886@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Hi, I have a few old Digital Equipment Corp. manuals. > If anyone is interested in them they are yours for shipping costs > (I'm in Ontario, Canada). They are as follows: Where in Ontario? I get to Ottawa regularly. I have no particular use for anyu of them, but I'd take them to save them from the shredder if we can arrange an in-person pickup. (I'm not sure I care enough to pay postage to save them.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 8 23:25:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:25:02 -0800 Subject: shelving storage solution In-Reply-To: <20070108210137.S12350@shell.lmi.net> References: , <45A2B018.5427.170778D6@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070108210137.S12350@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45A2B6AE.24109.17213126@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2007 at 21:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > These things are heavy, BTW; probably about 60+ lbs for each unit. > > ISTR 128 lbs per box Probably so--I know that I unloaded them by pulling the box straight off of the pickup bed; I didn't try to lift them out. Cut the box open and carry the parts to the assembly area. > I'm a little concerned about how the graham cracker would handle high > humidity. I still use a bunch of those units. I've had a few sets in my (fairly humid and occasionally wet from Oregon winters) garage now for 16 years; the shelves look just the way they did when they were new--except for the one that a quart can of shellac leaked onto--It's got a nice glossy, but lumpy, coating, but it didn't swell at all. You can fabricate extra shelves with nothing more than some 2x4s as the horizonal members (attach them with bolts and T-nuts) and 5/8" plywood for the shelf. Or you *could* break down and buy extra shelves... Cheers, Chuck From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 8 23:36:32 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 00:36:32 -0500 Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives In-Reply-To: <200701082319.l08NJalc014554@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00ad01c733b0$1f05e850$6500a8c0@barry> Re: "What about taking an external USB 3.5" floppy drive and connecting a 5.25" drive to the interface that is being used for the 3.5" drive? It seems like it should work." Won't work. ALL of the USB 3.5" floppy drives that I've taken apart (over 100) are fully integrated USB devices. They are NOT a standard floppy drive (with a 34-pin floppy drive interface) and a USB-to-floppy controller. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Jan 9 00:06:25 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:06:25 -0600 Subject: shelving storage solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A330E1.1010500@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: > > >It would most likely fall >over and have a danger of crushing you with what I've got loaded into >them. I certainly wouldn't want to have 10 13" CRTs dumped on me. I >should probably secure them in case of earthquake... > > We had wire shelving with simple wall braces survive some earthquakes in Irvine Ca, so you don't need much but a top level (probably high enough you don't have to duck when walking behind, if you have them out from the wall) braces to studs on the wall. I have also seen very a very nice installation with a 2 x 6 secured to the studs on the walls, and the shelves braced to the studs. Also ran power in conduits, and wire wire guides for the cabling out from that. I also built up a couple of rollarounds from 2 x the 6' kits, but using all the shelving spaced at 6" intervals to hold plastic bin boxes, and I can take all my material and work to any place by relocating those units on rollers. Jim From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 00:14:29 2007 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 01:14:29 -0500 Subject: Intel component data catalog 1982 on epay Message-ID: item 150077784822 Not my auction I post it here because the is near the end but only 8 people have viewed it! Maybe due to bad title or bad category. vax, 9000 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 9 00:21:30 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:21:30 -0800 Subject: Olivetti M20 In-Reply-To: <45A330E1.1010500@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: Hi For those that might be interested in an Olivetti M20, there is one on eBay. This was one of the few machines made with a Z8000 processor. I think the only personal computer. If someone on this list gets one, contact me and I'll help you get it up and running. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ >From photos to predictions, The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes has it all. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline1 From wizard at voyager.net Tue Jan 9 01:18:42 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 02:18:42 -0500 Subject: HP 21MX/F and OS choices (was Lookee what I just got!) In-Reply-To: <011801c73348$a09e76b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <1168070487.4220.19.camel@linux.site> <011801c73348$a09e76b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1168327122.4220.191.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2007-01-08 at 11:15 -0600, Jay West wrote: > Warren wrote... > > Well, I went and did it. I am now the proud owner of an HP-2117F, if I > > can identify it correctly, > > Oh yes, you identified it correctly. Congrats on a nice box! Aren't YOU the cheeky one... > > My experience with the HP 1000 series machines is, almost exclusively, > > programming them in TSB on HP-200B, C, and F systems, many moons ago. > > Woohoo! Another TSB'er, and one getting real hardware no less. Awesome! I'm alternating between being outrageously excited, and wondering if I'm a complete idiot. A disturbing sign is the original subject... Normally, upon seeing an utterly uninformative subject like that, I will waste a minute or two deciding if the author should be pistol-whipped or just pimp-slapped, with a warning. *SIGH* > > Jay, you seem to be an alpha geek when it comes to HP iron. > > Old HP 21xx/21MX iron... there's a few others lurking on the list far more > competant than I on that gear, but I'm not a complete idiot (usually) on the > topic :) I do seem to be one of the few that really focuses on TSB. ... and then there were two. > > So, could you look at the > > above auctions, and tell me what I need to make a good system. > > Obviously, a disk system comes to mind... but, if you could be > > specific, I would appreciate it. > > What you need depends on what OS you are going to run. Bear in mind that my > first love is TSB and always will be. BUT... do yourself a favor (and I > HIGHLY recommend anyone else messing with HP 21xx/21MX gear do the same) and > take a look at HP-IPL/OS. This is a small but incredibly useful and powerful > OS written recently (comparatively) by list member Bob Shannon and Terry > Newton. Think of it as a sort-of Forth-like development system - the > learning curve to get it up and running and start really using it > productively is measured in minutes, not hours - and there is some real > meat/capability there for those who want it. Folks, I'm telling you - > HP-IPL/OS is hella cool. See: > http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/ First off, let me say thank you for the incredibly rich set of information you gave me. As I said when I joined this list, it's kind of tiresome to NEVER have anyone around who knows more than I do. No, I'm not overly egocentric, but I am not now employed in programming or hardware (I work repairing high speed data circuits for the telephone company) and I am everybody's expert. I have worked in several places where there were more savvy people than myself, and I find I like that better. Sometimes, it's good to punt... Certainly, this list is that kind of place. I've seen a great deal of expertise float past my screen, some in areas which are not even familiar territory for me. I'm enjoying it. And, using it... So, I will no doubt give HP-IPL/OS a try. I always thought Forth got a great deal of attention LESS than it deserved. I halfway expected Forth to become a de facto common assembly language equivalent for most machines. So, it's interesting. On the other hand, the reason I bought this beastie is so that I can set up a machine and run TSB. That is the goal, albeit I may have to exhibit a bit of patience in achieving it. > HP-IPL/OS - I'm not going to go into any detail on this one here. It rocks. > Nuff said. See the URL above which speaks for itself. It will run on the > tinyest of configurations, up to the largest setup you can imagine. I'll let > Bob fill in any details people want to know, he's way more qualified than I > to speak on HP-IPL/OS requirements. This absolutely should be the first OS > anyone runs when getting into HP gear, because you'll get your machine doing > something interesting and fun with little hardware right away. Okay, you talked me into it. No harm done in any case, and I love to poke around and experiment with new computer environments. > RTE - I need others on the list to speak to this. I don't run it currently, > although I have booted up a few different versions a couple times. To my own > way of thinking, it's an odd non-intuitive OS. That's my own (somewhat > uninformed) subjectivity though, many other HP'ers will strongly disagree > and their points are no less valid than mine (since they run it, probably > more valid than mine). I can say that running this OS is very attainable, Not my cup of tea. I've used it, and find it, as you say, unintuitive. There's also no BEAUTY to it, if you catch my drift. I'm not sure I can define it, but I know it when I see it. > TSB - This is the most fun choice to me, or maybe I mean nostalgic. I (and a > suprising number of others) cut my teeth on HP 2000 TimeShared BASIC. It was > suprisingly popular in high schools and colleges as a teaching machine - so > it was many peoples first experience programming. You're talking my language here... > I see no real reason to build a C or F system. > Note that when I dismiss A, B, C, and F.... > I wouldn't do that so easily if there was a > different look & feel to those systems. I > realize someone may want A, B, C, or F for > nostalgia. But keep in mind that Access has > all the same commands and syntax (with VERY > minor exceptions) as A, B, C, and F. Yep. I never used the Access system myself, but have noted the continuation of the same look and feel, and personality of the system. It's a nostalgia thing, true... but I'm into the idea of UPGRADED nostalgia. As a matter of fact, at the risk of offering offense, I was considering trying to produce new plug-compatible devices for the machine, if the necessaries are not available. > So if someone wants to feel the nostalgia of running that old 2000B system, > they will certainly feel the exact same nostalgia on an E or Access system. > It's unlikely they would notice a difference (even if the person's memory of > the A, B, C, or F machine was as fresh as yesterday). So that leaves us with > 2000/E and 2000/Access as good candidates. Indeed. I follow your logic, and agree with it. [ Model number hardware discussion snipped, but saved ] > So, there you have it. If I were you, I'd focus on HP-IPL/OS first, while at > the same time looking around for the remaining gear to get RTE and Access > up. As I recall, any hardware that will run Access will most definitely run > some form of RTE, but the reverse isn't necessarily true. Welcome to the HP > crowd, congrats on your system... If I can help just drop me a line. That sounds like a plan. If any partially lobotomized CPU will work as the secondary, I probably will just wait around for one to present itself. There ARE a couple of things I recognize as unlikely, but which I'd just love to do... o Can a TSB system be connected to an Ethernet and be useful? o If so, what cards are needed? o Is there any way to get TSB connected to an IP network? I'd love to offer TSB ports on a real machine. The 2000B TSB system I used in high school had 64 phone lines and ports. I'd like to do the same, but NOT by buying 64 phone lines... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 03:22:57 2007 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:22:57 +0800 Subject: rt-11 Documentation In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640701071058y67f48df8n7d8f93cd2062a4be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/9/07, Richard wrote: > > Nothing is too heavy to post! Try a complete 8-node VAXcluster with VAX9000s with the accompanying storage, starcouplers, printers, VTs, networking gear.... etc. You get the idea. :-) I'm sure the old-iron fanatics would be able to give much better examples... :-) From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 9 08:10:35 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 08:10:35 -0600 Subject: shelving storage solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070109071716.057c4d88@mail> At 09:51 PM 1/8/2007, Richard wrote: >The shelf heights are adjustable in 1" increments and no tools are >required for assembly or disassembly. They seem sturdy enough when >fully loaded, but I wouldn't want to trip and fall into them and put a >big transverse load on the whole system. It would most likely fall >over and have a danger of crushing you with what I've got loaded into >them. There's that. I find particle board and OSB untrustworthy. As Fred suspected, the rivet-lock ones with particle-board shelves do tend to change over time. In a decade in a basement even with a dehumidifier, heavy objects easily distort the shelves. They may be fine for light-duty. I've tried some of the plastic ones, too, 2" thick shelves with corrugation and struts that would give the impression of strength - but over time, even with objects only as heavy as monitors and computers, they've sagged an inch in the middle of a yard-wide span. - John From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 9 08:27:33 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:27:33 -0500 Subject: Atari 800, 810 parts (or Apple II) wanted In-Reply-To: <252553.16185.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <252553.16185.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45A3A655.5090100@atarimuseum.com> The software for the Atari 400/800, XL/XE systems will all work together (some older 400/800 software will only run on the later XL/XE's with a "Translator Disk" which essentially overrides the XL/XE OS and copies the 800 OS into memory for compatibility. Some later software would only run on the XL/XE's due to memory and OS specific reasons. The 520/1040 "ST" series is a different architecture and OS (68000 CPU, GEM Based OS) and that software is not compatible with he 6502 based 400/800, XL/XE systems. Curt Chris M wrote: > yep, I used the 400 in high school also. Hated those > things. Utterly turned me off to computers until I > left hs altogether. They may have had some 800's too. > I would like an 800 if anyone has one surplus to > their needs. Come to think of it I'd like the 130 > also, plus any 520/1040 units (working or not) that I > could find. > Were these software compatible with the later 800xl > and those? What about cartridge compatible? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 9 08:47:42 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 09:47:42 -0500 Subject: rt-11 Documentation In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640701071058y67f48df8n7d8f93cd2062a4be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200701090947.42871.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 09 January 2007 04:22, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On 1/9/07, Richard wrote: > > Nothing is too heavy to post! > > Try a complete 8-node VAXcluster with VAX9000s with the accompanying > storage, starcouplers, printers, VTs, networking gear.... etc. > > You get the idea. :-) > > I'm sure the old-iron fanatics would be able to give much better > examples... :-) Perhaps too heavy for the "postal service", but then there's always Freight companies. It's even possible to ship buildings if you cut them into sections small enough to fit on a flatbed truck. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 08:53:13 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:53:13 -0500 Subject: rt-11 Documentation In-Reply-To: <200701090947.42871.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <26c11a640701071058y67f48df8n7d8f93cd2062a4be@mail.gmail.com> <200701090947.42871.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45A3AC59.5090102@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 09 January 2007 04:22, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >> On 1/9/07, Richard wrote: >>> Nothing is too heavy to post! >> Try a complete 8-node VAXcluster with VAX9000s with the accompanying >> storage, starcouplers, printers, VTs, networking gear.... etc. >> >> You get the idea. :-) >> >> I'm sure the old-iron fanatics would be able to give much better >> examples... :-) > > Perhaps too heavy for the "postal service", but then there's always > Freight companies. > > It's even possible to ship buildings if you cut them into sections small > enough to fit on a flatbed truck. Sometimes you can even ship a building without satisfying that requirement. Sometimes you can get clearance to take up an entire highway in the middle of the night and use a Mammoet to transport your building onto a rail car. Especially if your local rail line has a particularly large loading gauge. Peace... Sridhar From austin at ozpass.co.uk Tue Jan 9 09:19:38 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:19:38 +0000 Subject: Manchester Baby. Message-ID: Hello all! I?m a long time ?list lurker? but felt it was perhaps time to contribute. I?ve just spent the morning being shown a working replica of the Manchester Small-Scale Experimantal Machine (SSEM), also commonly referred to as the ?Manchester Baby?. It?s located in the ?1830 Warehouse? at the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry. One of the curators is (by lucky chance) my Uncle Michael and he?s personally written a number of programs for this old beast. The replica is fantastic, with incredible attention to period detail. For example, the switchgear is proper 1940?s vintage (salvaged from RAF aircraft) and the frames upon which the replica is built are from former GPO telecoms exchanges. Apparently the donor of said frames was using them to prevent his garden subsiding into a nearby river! The computer itself, for anyone unaware of it is regarded as the world?s first stored program computer. It ran its first program on June 21st 1948, jointly designed by Frederic C. Williams and Tom Kilburn at the University of Manchester, UK. The stored memory is in the form of a ?Williams Tube? - a cathode ray tube capable of storing 32 X 32bit words. It?s an extremely limited bit of kit (as one might imagine!) with an instruction set of only 7, and no adder (addition achieved by negating numbers during their move to the accumulator). It?s a great exhibit if anyone?s in this part of the world on a Tuesday with nothing to do. No charge for entry into the museum. Here are some informative links, including a beautifully crafted ?Manchester Baby Emulator? (in Java). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Baby http://www.computer50.org/ http://www.davidsharp.com/baby/index.html Regards, Austin. P.S. The guys at the museum have hooked it up to a PC, so that programs written on the emulator can be loaded into the baby to be run. Does this qualify it as the world?s most ancient add-on / peripheral / co-processor? ;-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 9 10:05:39 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:05:39 -0600 Subject: HP 21MX/F and OS choices (was Lookee what I just got!) References: <1168070487.4220.19.camel@linux.site><011801c73348$a09e76b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1168327122.4220.191.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <005e01c73408$01eeabf0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Warren wrote... > So, I will no doubt give HP-IPL/OS a try. I always thought Forth > got a great deal of attention LESS than it deserved. As Bob will no doubt point out quickly, HP-IPL/OS is not Forth. But it is very much in that vein as far as design & philosophy. > Okay, you talked me into it. No harm done in any case, and I love > to poke around and experiment with new computer environments. Don't view IPL as a distraction from TSB. View it as a complement... sometimes you just want to boot something up quick and experiment with a new card or peripheral and don't want to wait 5 minutes and mount tapes to boot the machine. You just want to "get at" the card, or test some theory with regards to how DMS works to further your understanding of it, etc. Or maybe you want to poke around at how TSB lays things out on the disk. TSB doesn't offer you assembler, and no low level access to the machine. Boot up IPL and read a few sectors, toss together a WORD to dump the disk intelligently (ie. list programs in a user account for example), etc. IPL is awesome for just that quick "whatif/how" scenario. > Not my cup of tea. I've used it, and find it, as you say, > unintuitive. There's also no BEAUTY to it, if you catch my drift. I'm > not sure I can define it, but I know it when I see it. I agree... today. I must admit I haven't given it enough of a chance to sink into my head. I will give it a fair shake and dig into it deeply when I get back to my HP boxes. But I know what you mean... TSB is spartan and simple compared to most other environments. But there is definitely a particular elegance to it's simplicity.... > As a matter of fact, at the risk of offering offense, I was > considering trying to produce new plug-compatible devices for the > machine, if the necessaries are not available. No offense at all. Bob Shannon took the first step by creating the IDE interface. I'd have to hack up TSB to get it to see that drive as a 7900/05/06/20, but that is certainly doable (and not difficult really). You should take the second step... and that is building a modern replacement for the 12920/21/22 mux set. That is the last part that is fairly rare and is the single biggest thing keeping most HP folks from running TSB. There's another approach... I have done some initial digging in to the source for TSB to see about making some changes that would both improve the OS and make it run on hardware that is easier to find. There are two key things that have to change.... 1) implement DMS support (memory over 32kw) and 2) make the number of ports configurable... then it may be possible that the code could be revamped to run in just one cpu. Gone would be the dual cpu requirement, gone would be the microcode requirement, gone would be the need for the rare mux set. The number of ports is already configurable (16 or 32)... but it would need to be granular in units of 1. Then you could gen your machine for say... 4 user ports. One of the key requirements to make this possible would be switching to use BACI boards for serial ports. If you look at the programming api that BACI boards offer, it's pretty incredible. I've never seen a serial interface with quite so many programmatic features. It seems to be extremely adept at keeping the load off the cpu. I'd also want to enhance the system console code to allow use of a BACI instead of the harder to find 12531 boards (the api isn't compatible). I am not positive that all this is possible, wouldn't know till I tried. But from a brief glance at the code I think it might be doable. I did set up the 2000/Access source code in a CVS repository... :) But then, I seem to never have any time to really dig in to projects like this :\ > That sounds like a plan. If any partially lobotomized CPU will work > as the secondary, I probably will just wait around for one to present > itself. Best choice - and most common - get yourself a 2109 or 2113 (21MX/E). You'll need 32kw of ram... but heck, you could easily pull one of your 64k boards from your F and be all set. You'd also need floating point roms... was that standard on the E? I forget, and no books around at the moment. But I think it was standard on the E. Lastly, you'd want to make sure it had a FAB board (a daughterboard underneath the cpu - most E's have it). The 2000/Access IOP firmware (special microcode) comes in a chip size that can only go on a FAB, not a FEM. It would be possible to rip the data from those chips, re-organize it, and stuff it into the larger formfactor chips that will go on a FAB *OR* a FEM.... but those larger chip blanks seem to be unobtanium. > o Can a TSB system be connected to an Ethernet and be useful? > > o If so, what cards are needed? > > o Is there any way to get TSB connected to an IP network? TSB certainly has no IP support, and without DMS, the memory map is awfully cramped - little room for new code. However - just cheat: put a terminal server in front of it and away you go! > I'd love to offer TSB ports on a real machine. The 2000B TSB system > I used in high school had 64 phone lines and ports. I'd like to do the > same, but NOT by buying 64 phone lines... 32 lines was the max. Perhaps they had two machines :) I opened mine up for a few folks to telnet in to for a short time. I didn't use a terminal server. I had a FreeBSD pc with a wireless internet card to my home cablemodem network. The PC also had a digiboard PC8e (8 port serial card). People could telnet to the PC and get a script which picked an open line from the 8 and cu'd them to the first available port on the HP. I never kept it up for more than a few hours, by arrangement only. I stopped doing it after the novelty wore off... I don't like leaving the dual 2100's running unattended. Jay West From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Jan 9 10:26:50 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 11:26:50 -0500 Subject: HP 21MX/F and OS choices (was Lookee what I just got!) In-Reply-To: <011801c73348$a09e76b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200701091627.l09GQtJX020955@mail.bcpl.net> On 8 Jan 2007 at 11:15, Jay West wrote: > RTE...To my own way of thinking, it's an odd non-intuitive OS. In what way? -- Dave From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Jan 9 10:26:54 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 11:26:54 -0500 Subject: getting started with your new HP 21xx In-Reply-To: <018601c73359$a7f8e100$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200701091627.l09GQtJV020955@mail.bcpl.net> On 8 Jan 2007 at 13:17, Jay West wrote: > wow, apparently there's no 21MX E or 21MX F short user guide on > bitsavers. They're available from the HP Computer Museum: http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2374 (M-Series) http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2398 http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2399 (E-Series) http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2400 (F-Series) The Operating and Reference Manuals are separate for the M-Series and combined for the E/F-Series. > The diag manuals on bitsavers aren't the complete set, nor the latest > set. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/Diagnostics/ contains the complete set of manuals from the four HP binders (24396-14001 through 004) that accompanied the 24396-13601 Rev. 2040 tape. What do you believe is missing? > I have been working for some time on putting together a CD that contains > the entire latest (last) diagnostic library.... What revision is the latest (last) library? -- Dave From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Jan 9 10:29:09 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 11:29:09 -0500 Subject: HP 2100A vs. 2100S Message-ID: <200701091629.l09GTAWS021585@mail.bcpl.net> Would anyone know the difference between a 2100A and a 2100S? Is it just packaging (such as, e.g., the "13246A Printer Subsystem," which was simply a 9866A printer and a 2640A terminal duplex card that were sold together)? Or is there something fundamentally different in the hardware? -- Dave From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 10:43:23 2007 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 16:43:23 +0000 Subject: rt-11 Documentation In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640701071058y67f48df8n7d8f93cd2062a4be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640701090843q4566f6ffp27203bcaddbd19f1@mail.gmail.com> > > Hey, I just recently bought a complete set of VAX/VMS documentation -- > 12 boxes stuffed to the gills. > > Nothing is too heavy to post! > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > I was more a combination of too heavy for me to want to carry to the post office and the fact that it would probably be cheaper to print them out yourself. Dan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 9 10:59:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:59:12 -0700 Subject: rt-11 Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 09 Jan 2007 16:43:23 +0000. <26c11a640701090843q4566f6ffp27203bcaddbd19f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <26c11a640701090843q4566f6ffp27203bcaddbd19f1 at mail.gmail.com>, "Dan Williams" writes: > I was more a combination of too heavy for me to want to carry to the > post office and the fact that it would probably be cheaper to print > them out yourself. a) not all of the documentation is available online b) if you print them out yourself, you don't get the binders. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 9 11:26:58 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:26:58 -0700 Subject: shelving storage solution In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 09 Jan 2007 08:10:35 -0600. <6.2.3.4.2.20070109071716.057c4d88@mail> Message-ID: In article <6.2.3.4.2.20070109071716.057c4d88 at mail>, John Foust writes: > There's that. I find particle board and OSB untrustworthy. > [...] > > I've tried some of the plastic ones, too, 2" thick shelves with corrugation > and struts that would give the impression of strength - but over time, even > with objects only as heavy as monitors and computers, they've sagged an > inch in the middle of a yard-wide span. Yeah, I've already had bookshelves of particle/OSB construction sag from the weight of the books -- and I live in a desert. I looked at the plastic shelving units and decided they were OK for buckets and potted plants, but not for terminals. That's ultimately why I decided to go with the wire shelving. I did notice one thing after I loaded them up -- if your terminals or whatever have feet on them that don't stick through the wire mesh, then all the load of the unit is pressing on wherever the feet are touching only. For these units I'm considering going to home depot and buying some 1/8" thick plywood that I cut into pieces to rest on top of the wire. Then the load will be more evenly distributed across the shelf. So far, no sagging on the shelves themselves, just a little pushing of individual wires with the feet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 11:31:09 2007 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:31:09 +0000 Subject: rt-11 Documentation In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640701090843q4566f6ffp27203bcaddbd19f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640701090931l735ad700wd12c90ba6b82f7a4@mail.gmail.com> On 09/01/07, Richard wrote: > > In article <26c11a640701090843q4566f6ffp27203bcaddbd19f1 at mail.gmail.com>, > "Dan Williams" writes: > > > I was more a combination of too heavy for me to want to carry to the > > post office and the fact that it would probably be cheaper to print > > them out yourself. > > a) not all of the documentation is available online > > b) if you print them out yourself, you don't get the binders. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > As I said in my original post they are print-outs. Dan From irisworld at mac.com Tue Jan 9 11:31:59 2007 From: irisworld at mac.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 12:31:59 -0500 Subject: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion In-Reply-To: <20070105213444.ppd9lv4kocbowowk@webmail.dds.nl> References: <20070105213444.ppd9lv4kocbowowk@webmail.dds.nl> Message-ID: <037EF5C2-A5A7-4930-9298-18EC9C79F75A@mac.com> On Jan 5, 2007, at 3:34 PM, roosmcd at dds.nl wrote: >> From: "William Donzelli" >> Subject: Re: Intergraph / Clipper / HLH Orion >> >>> So noone has one of the Intergraph workstations? A pity. They >>> were a >>> dominant player, you'd have expected some of the machines to >>> survive! >> >> >> There are quite a few in Rhode Island at both computer groups. >> Even an >> Intergraph VAX, with weird disk controllers made to search for >> polygon >> data in hardware. >> > > I still have a 2020 and a 125 from a lot I traded some time ago . > These were used as GIS systems by the government. Never got the 125 > to work because of some bug in the installation procedure. The > steel-encased Intergraph 21" color monitor was also very nice.... > I also have a lot of documentation, cd-roms, tapes and floppies. > > If anyone is interested, I have Intergraph memory for sale for > 2000 machines, sets of 4x4MB special Intergraph 30-pin simms; my > machines already is at the 64MB max. I've tried a long time to > sell those, so far no luck, so I don't think many people have > Intergraph workstations :) . > > greetings, > Michiel > I have an Intergraph 6700 (C400I Clipper Server). If anyone is in the michigan area, I'll give them the machine. Never really had any time to fool with it. Rob From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 9 11:44:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 11:44:01 -0600 Subject: rt-11 Documentation In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640701071058y67f48df8n7d8f93cd2062a4be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45A3D461.2040207@yahoo.co.uk> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On 1/9/07, Richard wrote: > >> >> Nothing is too heavy to post! > > Try a complete 8-node VAXcluster with VAX9000s with the accompanying > storage, starcouplers, printers, VTs, networking gear.... etc. For certain classes of things, the problem's not in the weight or size, but in retaining (and having on-tap at either end) the knowledge to dismantle and put back together again, I suppose. I remember with our Marconi that it took several days for the trained site engineers to label everything up, dismantle it, and properly pack it - then another whole day at the other end to put everything back together properly and recommission it. That's without the effort to physically move the thing across country, which easily filled an entire truck what with the machine itself, documentation, software (large cabinet of paper tape), spares, and the control desk. It's a similar story for any big installations, I suspect - DEC's just something of an exception to a certain extent because there's so much of their stuff about and so much knowledge within the collecting community. Even then I'd think twice about entrusting the bigger hardware to a freight company without some sort of supervision from people who know the hardware. cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 9 12:19:58 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 12:19:58 -0600 Subject: HP 2100A vs. 2100S References: <200701091629.l09GTAWS021585@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <011001c7341a$c6b0d460$6500a8c0@BILLING> Dave wrote.... > Would anyone know the difference between a 2100A and a 2100S? Is it just > packaging (such as, e.g., the "13246A Printer Subsystem," which was simply > a 9866A printer and a 2640A terminal duplex card that were sold together)? > Or is there something fundamentally different in the hardware? My apologies :( Dave asked me this offlist a while back and I hadn't gotten to it yet. On responding to personal (offlist) email, lets just say I will never die. I tend to respond quickly to things I know off the top of my head, and take eons to respond to anything that I have to dig up in a manual or look up or actually perform some task. On to the info... There are the differences "as they were sold", and then there are the "real" differences. The differences "as they were sold" are more of a packaging thing - those really aren't differences as the computer was certainly capable of having or not having the packaged options, they just were only orderable/sold a certain way at time of initial order. Then you get to the real hardware differences. According to sales price lists... 2100A Computer programmers panel, extended arithmetic instructions, memory parity check with interrupt, power fail interrupt with automatic restart, and memory protect Options: -008 8K memory -012 12K memory -016 16K memory -024 24K memory -032 32K memory 2100S computer programmers panel, extended arithmetic instructions, memory parity check with interrupt, power fail interrupt with automatic restart, memory protect, 16K words of memory, floating point instructions, DMA, time base generator, and tty interface Options: -024 24K memory -032 32K memory So, according to "as they were sold", a 2100A could have 8, 12, 24, or 32kw of core while a 2100S could only have 16, 24, or 32kw. This is pure packaging, the memory controllers in both 2100A and S both have clear jumper settings for 8, 12, 16,24, or 32. As they were sold, the A didn't have the floating point option roms while the S did. Of course the floating point roms were perfectly installable in an A as an option (but see below). The S came with the cards for DMA, TBG, and TTY while the A did not. Of course, you could easily order DMA, TBG, and TTY cards for an A too. So in effect, the only difference between the two is the paint and lettering on the front panel. As a result - it is best to disregard ALL of the above and just consider the machines identical. In other words, just because it's an A doesn't mean it doesn't have FP or FPP... many, perhaps most - did. BUT... see below... One exception. There is some disparity between the two (given certain date codes... given other date codes there is NO disparity between the two) with regards to their capacity to hold add-on firmware roms EASILY. I do not have the exact info at my fingertips, but it basically goes something like this: On the 2100 computers (A&S), addon firmware can go on circuit board A1 and A2. I forget which modules 0-4 go on which boards, but long story short firmware goes on boards A1 & A2. On early models of the A, there are no sockets in some of the locations where you would put addon roms. The etching is there, just no sockets. I don't think the jumper setting to enable those sockets is present. On the S, all microcode module locations have sockets and can be enabled by jumpers. What I can't recall is if the older 2100A boards had zero sockets past the base instruction set, or had some but less than the maximum. I think it was the latter. However, later 2100A machines did (I think) come with A1 and A2 boards that were fully socketed for all modules. And to add to that... I don't remember where, but I definitely remember seeing somewhere (perhaps in the 2100A schematics) that there was a note in the user manual by HP sanctioning user modifications to the A1 &| A2 boards to upgrade it to allow all microcode modules. They basically said - if you want to add microcode in modules X... you must either trade in your A1 & A2 boards for the newer version, OR, you must cut this trace, add this jumper, and solder in chip sockets for the remaining spots on the board. Again - correctness warning - I do not have manuals or systems in front of me as I write this, I'm going from memory. I may well have made errors as to specifics above, but I am sure that the general idea is correct as to the differences. So, that all being said... if you have a later A with all microcode modules socketed or an earlier A that someone added the sockets to, or an earlier A that someone traded in the A1 & A2 boards, there is no difference between the A and the S. If you have an earlier version of A that has fewer microcode sockets, some may say that the fact you have to install sockets means they are different, but others may say that's no difference at all. Your call. Jay West From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 9 12:29:12 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 13:29:12 -0500 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy (was: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives?) In-Reply-To: <200701091756.l09HubU4030650@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002201c7341c$0f91a3c0$6500a8c0@barry> Link to a possible USB 5.25" floppy drive: http://silme.pair.com/~goldman/deviceside/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 9 12:39:50 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 12:39:50 -0600 Subject: RTE References: <200701091627.l09GQtJX020955@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <014601c7341d$8d181490$6500a8c0@BILLING> I had written.... >> RTE...To my own way of thinking, it's an odd non-intuitive OS. To which Dave held my feet to the fire... > In what way? *grin* I have no sound logical basis for this. Purely subjective gut reaction to the admittedly tiny amount of exposure I've had to it. Most OS's that I first look at... because I've had lots of exposure to lots of other OS's... there is some amount of "oh, yeah, that makes sense, I bet I know where they are heading, I suspect they implemented this THAT way...". I do not get that sense with RTE for some reason. Every time I've started digging in to it by reading in manuals, I find myself raising an eyebrow a lot and muttering "huh?". This is more a statement about me than the OS probably ;) That does not mean RTE is a bad or hard to grasp OS, that's not what I'm saying. I'm merely saying that for ME, the way MY brain is wired (peanut gallery - shup)... I don't just intuitively "get it" with RTE like I do many other OS's. When I approach a new OS, often when I am familiar with one area I can at least make educated guesses about other areas of it and "slide right in" to get productive right away. I just don't get that "transitional familiarity" with RTE. This could be a deficiency in my wiring ;) This could be that I really haven't spent enough time with RTE for the light bulb to go off. Could be both! Hopefully no one will take what I said for myself as a reason THEY should shy away from RTE. What I can say, is that I will be delving in to RTE at some point in the future in detail. Sooner or later, I've decided to make time for it and give it a real chance. Perhaps then the light bulb will go off and I will radically change my tune :) Jay From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 9 12:32:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 11:32:20 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Microvax IIs in BA123s Message-ID: FYI... I'm just passing this along, please contact the original poster. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:19:01 GMT Groups: comp.sys.dec,comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec.micro,alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet .pdp-11 From: Jeff Shirley Reply-To: spamalot at mindspring.com Subject: MicroVAX IIs/BA123s in Demand? Id: <9zyoh.8847$w91.8571 at newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> --------- Greetings. I have a couple of MicroVAX II systems in BA123 boxes I would like to sell, hopefully to hobbyists rather than the local scrap guy. My question is whether it might make more sense to just pull the boards and cabinet kits, and scrap the BA123 enclosures. The first system has fairly standard components, a KA630 (M7606-AF), two 4MB boards (M7608-BP), a pair of DHV11s (M3104), a DELQA (M7516), RQDX3 (M7555), TQK50 (M7546), RD53, TK50, and a pair of boards from Ultimate Computer Corporation. I think the second system has some more interesting parts, like a pair of ESDI dives and a Pertec tape drive interface. The first system weighed in at 125 pounds, which would cost upwards of $150 to ship across the country from (from the Los Angeles area). I just do not know if there is any demand for the old BA123s in the hobbyist community. Opinions? Jeff. P.S. Apologies to the PDP-11 groups for the crossposts. P.P.S. This old DEC hardware amazes me. I hooked a VT220 to the first system described above, and powered it up. It booted right up with MicroVMS V4.7, circa 1987. -- Jeff Shirley spamalot at mindspring.com "Bill Gates is filthy rich, but that doesn't mean I want to be married to him." From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 9 12:36:06 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:36:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yet another bounty: CompuServe software ($$$) Message-ID: Hey All. Does anyone have this software by chance? Compuserv professional connection plus. Message management with forms. Compuserv, Inc. 1988 (PC3-Mail System) If so, it's worth some bucks to you. Please contact me directly (I'm not subscribed and won't get replies here). Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 9 12:43:27 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:43:27 -0800 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy (was: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives?) Message-ID: <45A3E24F.70307@bitsavers.org> Link to a possible USB 5.25" floppy drive: http://silme.pair.com/~goldman/deviceside/ -- I spoke to him at VCF, and was unimpressed by how closed he intends to keep the HW/SW. A USB floppy interface will be part of the fallout from the 'wizl' development that I'm doing, though the hardware is going to be in the $100+ range. http://bitsavers.org/tools/wizl/diskwizl/ I'm going to spend this next quarter concentrating on developing the wizl. Was looking back and it's been six years since I started looking at getting an analog 7-track tape reader running, and I need to get this project finished. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 9 12:47:06 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 12:47:06 -0600 Subject: getting started with your new HP 21xx References: <200701091627.l09GQtJV020955@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <014d01c7341e$93835730$6500a8c0@BILLING> Dave wrote... > They're available from the HP Computer Museum: > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2374 (M-Series) > http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2398 > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2399 (E-Series) > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2400 (F-Series) Aha... perfect. Thank you Dave! I have the manuals, but it's nice to know where I can now point folks looking for that info. Much appreciated! Belay my previous link to the 2100 manual and go straight to the E or F series ones above! I had written... >> The diag manuals on bitsavers aren't the complete set, nor the latest >> set. To which Dave replied.... > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/Diagnostics/ contains the complete > set > of manuals from the four HP binders (24396-14001 through 004) that > accompanied the 24396-13601 Rev. 2040 tape. What do you believe is > missing? Ahhh you aren't looking at the same spot I was. I had wandered in to this URL: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/diag/ Which is decidedly not the same thing :) >> I have been working for some time on putting together a CD that contains >> the entire latest (last) diagnostic library.... > > What revision is the latest (last) library? You and I had talked about this... going from memory... I think I had 2040, but you had supplied the one single upgraded diagnostic that made the collection effectively 2326? To answer this completely I need to go dig on my laptop :) Jay From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 9 12:46:49 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:46:49 -0500 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy (was: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives?) In-Reply-To: <45A3E24F.70307@bitsavers.org> References: <45A3E24F.70307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45A3E319.1040003@atarimuseum.com> Al, Would your interface allow for multiple format reads? (PC Fat, Apple ProDos, Amiga, C64) Essentially a USB version of the Catweasel??? But with format drivers developed? Curt Al Kossow wrote: > Link to a possible USB 5.25" floppy drive: > > http://silme.pair.com/~goldman/deviceside/ > > -- > > I spoke to him at VCF, and was unimpressed by how closed he intends to > keep the HW/SW. > > A USB floppy interface will be part of the fallout from the 'wizl' > development that I'm doing, though the hardware is going to be in the > $100+ range. > > http://bitsavers.org/tools/wizl/diskwizl/ > > I'm going to spend this next quarter concentrating on developing the > wizl. Was looking back and it's been six years since I started looking > at getting an analog 7-track tape reader running, and I need to get this > project finished. > > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 9 12:58:09 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:58:09 -0800 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy (was: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives?) Message-ID: <45A3E5C1.9010306@bitsavers.org> > Essentially a USB version of the Catweasel??? That's exactly what it is. A flux-tranistion interface daughter card for a fpga4fun SAXO board (USB2 chip and Altera FPGA). http://www.fpga4fun.com/board_Xylo.html This is probably similar to what the Device Side Data board is, but the intention that I have is to make the entire design, including the tool chain and host/device side code freely available. The tape wizl is a multichannel preamp and A/D converter attached to the same board. Cost could be driven down by designing a single board, but right now I'm only worrying about the boards needed for tape/disc interfacing. From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Jan 9 12:59:12 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:59:12 -0500 Subject: HP 2100A vs. 2100S In-Reply-To: <011001c7341a$c6b0d460$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200701091859.l09IxECG017510@mail.bcpl.net> On 9 Jan 2007 at 12:19, Jay West wrote: > As a result - it is best to disregard ALL of the above and just consider > the machines identical. Just what I needed to know, thanks. Much appreciated. > One exception. There is some disparity between the two (given certain > date codes... This is not uncommon with the 1000 machines either. For example, regarding the F-Series machines being discussed in another thread, machines before date code 1920 are missing a fair number of instructions (four-word floating-point instructions, double-integer instructions, and a few SIS codes). The manual at the HP Computer Museum I cited in that thread was for the earlier machine. If you have the same manual for the post-1920 machine, I'd love to scan it. :-) Similarly, regarding RTE, M- and E-Series machines with CPU boards prior to about date code 1730 required massive hardware upgrades to run RTE-IV or later. CPU board, DMS ROMs, memory controller, memory protect, I/O backplane (!), etc. had to be exchanged for newer versions. So it's quite true that the name on the front of the box isn't the whole story as to what's in the box.... -- Dave From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 13:11:06 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 13:11:06 -0600 Subject: MicroVAX IIs in BA123s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c73421$ee2c8a50$4200a8c0@main> Hi Richard, I tried to email Jeff, and it keeps coming back. Do you have another email address or phone number for him? Thanks, Paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 12:32 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Fwd: Microvax IIs in BA123s FYI... I'm just passing this along, please contact the original poster. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:19:01 GMT Groups: comp.sys.dec,comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec.micro,alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet .pdp-11 From: Jeff Shirley Reply-To: spamalot at mindspring.com Subject: MicroVAX IIs/BA123s in Demand? Id: <9zyoh.8847$w91.8571 at newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> --------- Greetings. I have a couple of MicroVAX II systems in BA123 boxes I would like to sell, hopefully to hobbyists rather than the local scrap guy. My question is whether it might make more sense to just pull the boards and cabinet kits, and scrap the BA123 enclosures. The first system has fairly standard components, a KA630 (M7606-AF), two 4MB boards (M7608-BP), a pair of DHV11s (M3104), a DELQA (M7516), RQDX3 (M7555), TQK50 (M7546), RD53, TK50, and a pair of boards from Ultimate Computer Corporation. I think the second system has some more interesting parts, like a pair of ESDI dives and a Pertec tape drive interface. The first system weighed in at 125 pounds, which would cost upwards of $150 to ship across the country from (from the Los Angeles area). I just do not know if there is any demand for the old BA123s in the hobbyist community. Opinions? Jeff. P.S. Apologies to the PDP-11 groups for the crossposts. P.P.S. This old DEC hardware amazes me. I hooked a VT220 to the first system described above, and powered it up. It booted right up with MicroVMS V4.7, circa 1987. -- Jeff Shirley spamalot at mindspring.com "Bill Gates is filthy rich, but that doesn't mean I want to be married to him." From wizard at voyager.net Tue Jan 9 13:17:21 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:17:21 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 systems empty rack on ebay. In-Reply-To: <685935.44173.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <685935.44173.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1168370241.4220.227.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2007-01-08 at 17:14 -0800, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > There's an HP 1000 system rack up on ebay right now, > (290068544027). Just thing to hold all of those 21MX > type systems in the last few posts. Kind of a long drive for me. I'd LOVE to buy it, but... anybody have any ideas for shipping that I can contact QUICKLY? Thanks in advance. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 13:42:03 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 11:42:03 -0800 Subject: Are there M4 9914 9-track tape driver users on the list? Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90701091142u4581b231y24d2b032b7d15edd@mail.gmail.com> I acquired a couple of M4 9914 9-track tapes drives a while ago and finally got around to trying to do something useful with them. Never having used one before the first thing I did was just see if it would mount a tape ok. The first brand new tape I tried was sucked into the take-up reel ok and wound a few turns, then sucked all of the way back out, then the drive tried again before giving up with a N T U (No Take Up) error. I then tried a second brand new tape from a different vendor and got the same results. Then I went back into the garage and hefted (it's a workout) the second 9914 drive into my work area and tried both tapes on the second drive with the same result. Then I tried manually threading a tape onto the take-up reel while the drive was powered off and making sure that winding the take-up reel caused the supply reel to turn, then powered on the drive and got the same N T U error again. I looked in the manual and it said something about the N T U error occurring due to a lack of tach pulses. Then I looked at the tape path for what might be the tach sensor and guessed it was probably a metal roller near the take-up reel. I used a marker to put a dot on the top of the reel and noticed that it wasn't rotating when the tape was moving past it. I tried rotating this roller by hand and I could feel detents while rotating it and I assume it is attached to some type of rotary encoder. Now to the point posting this here, my questions are does anyone know if this roller/encoder needs any lubrication? If so, how? It felt somewhat stiff when I first tried rotating it and got a little easier to rotate the more I kept at it. And secondly, this roller did have a thin rubber coating which had turned to goo. I cleaned the goo off of the roller. If anyone else has seen this on a 9914 drive (I assume so, it was goo on both of mine) did they do anything about it? Is there a good way to re-rubber this roller? After cleaning the goo off of the tach roller and getting it to rotate a little more freely I did see it rotate when the tape was moving past it (wasn't sure if it would without the rubber) and now the 9914 will mount a tape most of the time. -Glen From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 9 13:49:20 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 13:49:20 -0600 Subject: HP 1000 systems empty rack on ebay. References: <685935.44173.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1168370241.4220.227.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <001c01c73427$43f55930$6500a8c0@BILLING> Bob wrote.... >> There's an HP 1000 system rack up on ebay right now, >> (290068544027). Just thing to hold all of those 21MX >> type systems in the last few posts. That's exactly the correct period rack :) Appears to maybe be missing one of the antitip feet, but no huge deal. I have one identical to that, holds two 2113's, 2748B, 7900A, and a I2C paper tape reader/punch emulator (THANK YOU BOB!). > Kind of a long drive for me. I'd LOVE to buy it, but... anybody > have any ideas for shipping that I can contact QUICKLY? Thanks in > advance. I believe an empty rack of that style is around 105 pounds. Typical dimensions, figure around 21 wide by 72 tall by maybe 30 deep. Secure front door with duct tape, metal band it to pallet (with a piece of cardboard on top - the top is painted/textured like the sides), wrap in plastic, then ship out the door. See if the seller will band it to a pallet & such, from the looks of where the rack is they may have that capability. When you call a shipper, see if they will let you do a ship to terminal, instead of ship to residence. If you can do that on both ends, it saves a LOT. From one end... still helps. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 9 14:30:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 14:30:49 -0600 Subject: HP 2100A vs. 2100S References: <200701091859.l09IxECG017510@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <007901c7342d$0f7b25d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> David wrote.... > This is not uncommon with the 1000 machines either. For example, > regarding > the F-Series machines being discussed in another thread, machines before > date code 1920 are missing a fair number of instructions (four-word > floating-point instructions, double-integer instructions, and a few SIS > codes). Most interesting, I had no idea! Wouldn't those missing instructions be strictly due to different microcode sets? Or is it something else in the micromachine? Hummm... I had found a statement in the MEF Engineering Reference docs that the E & F cpu boards (sans roms) were not interchangeable before a certain datecode, but after a certain datecode they were. I'm guessing this was done so they only had one board to manufacture. But I'm curious if this is the same thing that you mention above, and what exactly changed besides microcode if so? > Similarly, regarding RTE, M- and E-Series machines with CPU boards prior > to > about date code 1730 required massive hardware upgrades to run RTE-IV or > later. CPU board, DMS ROMs, memory controller, memory protect, I/O > backplane (!), etc. had to be exchanged for newer versions. Uh oh... holy cow. I had NO idea. I believe all my machines are after that date code, but you can bet I'll be keeping an eye out for that. Do you have any good docs on what to look for besides the cpu date code (with regards to RTE compatability) such as on the memory controller, MEM PRT, etc.? And the I/O backplane even? Yikes, that's a bit unsettling - seeing as I know for sure I replaced an I/O backplane in one of my boxes cause the connectors were cracked. I just grabbed a backplane from a spare junk machine.... :/ Jay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 9 14:41:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:41:39 -0700 Subject: rt-11 Documentation In-Reply-To: <200701090947.42871.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <26c11a640701071058y67f48df8n7d8f93cd2062a4be@mail.gmail.com> <200701090947.42871.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45A3FE03.1090608@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Perhaps too heavy for the "postal service", but then there's always > Freight companies. Hmm... You don't ship by air. :) > It's even possible to ship buildings if you cut them into sections small > enough to fit on a flatbed truck. So what about the buildings made of molded cement! > Pat I suspect most of the the time it is *too* *heavy* for the person selling the product to move it out his/her door. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 9 14:46:59 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 14:46:59 -0600 Subject: Are there M4 9914 9-track tape driver users on the list? References: <1e1fc3e90701091142u4581b231y24d2b032b7d15edd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008901c7342f$4f1a7630$6500a8c0@BILLING> Glen wrote... >I acquired a couple of M4 9914 9-track tapes drives a while ago and > finally got around to trying to do something useful with them. Glen, do we just collect all the same gear? ;) I have two 9914's, both having problems. One of them the problem is the ADP board for sure. The other one I THINK the problem is the ADP board. There are really good docs on these drives available... service manuals, schematics I seem to recall too... but I just haven't had a chance to dig back in to mine for a long time. > Never having used one before the first thing I did was just see if it > would mount a tape ok. The first brand new tape I tried was sucked > into the take-up reel ok and wound a few turns, then sucked all of the > way back out, then the drive tried again before giving up with a N T U > (No Take Up) error. I then tried a second brand new tape from a > different vendor and got the same results. Did you try inputting the CE unlock code and running the recalibration? May help, certainly won't hurt at this point. > And secondly, this > roller did have a thin rubber coating which had turned to goo. I > cleaned the goo off of the roller. If anyone else has seen this on a > 9914 drive (I assume so, it was goo on both of mine) did they do > anything about it? Is there a good way to re-rubber this roller? On my rollers, the rubber is perfectly fine. I lucked out I guess. Jay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 9 14:52:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:52:09 -0700 Subject: Manchester Baby. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A40079.6030506@jetnet.ab.ca> Austin Pass wrote: > P.S. The guys at the museum have hooked it up to a PC, so that programs > written on the emulator can be loaded into the baby to be run. Does this > qualify it as the world?s most ancient add-on / peripheral / co-processor? > ;-) I say dump the PC ... go for better I/O as we all know the PC has more software/hardware down time than the Baby. I consider this a good way to demo a computer system ... in this case a PDP 8. http://www.pdp8.net/ . The main problem with machines like the Baby is that they need to be seen live rather than some emulation on a PC to get the real feel for what was done at the time. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 9 13:24:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 19:24:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sun plastics In-Reply-To: from "cctech@porky.vax-11.org" at Jan 8, 7 10:35:40 am Message-ID: > > > I've used a product called plastic epoxy which includes a solvent to eat > into the items being bonded for a better bond. I've had the best luck > placing a small piece of metal (paperclip) across the break and spreading > an 1/8" thick layer over that. For plastics that it will disolve (if you see what I mean), I've had great success using a liquid called 'Plastic Weld' available from good model shops. It's basically dicholoromethane (methylene chloride). What you do is put the plastic parts together and run a brush dipped in the solvent along the crack. For a stronger join, I cut a piece of cotton frabric to fit over the hack of the repair, put it in place and 'paint' it with the solvent. Then push the cotton into the softened plastic. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 9 15:08:03 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 13:08:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: shelving storage solution In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070109071716.057c4d88@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070109071716.057c4d88@mail> Message-ID: <20070109130346.Y57263@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Jan 2007, John Foust wrote: > There's that. I find particle board and OSB untrustworthy. > As Fred suspected, the rivet-lock ones with particle-board shelves > do tend to change over time. In a decade in a basement even with a > dehumidifier, heavy objects easily distort the shelves. They may > be fine for light-duty. Current graham cracker is a lot different than the earlier materials. It may be worth re-trying some forms of it. If it's the same one as I think that it might be, . . . for a little while, Costco had a very nice heavy version. It has recesses in the shelf supports, such that each shelf is supported around its entire perimeter (and a brace), and the graham cracker is recessed enough that its edges are protected. I have been a little surprised at how well it has held up. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 9 14:56:59 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:56:59 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX IIs in BA123s In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:11:06 -0600. <000b01c73421$ee2c8a50$4200a8c0@main> Message-ID: In article <000b01c73421$ee2c8a50$4200a8c0 at main>, "Paul Anderson" writes: > Hi Richard, > > I tried to email Jeff, and it keeps coming back. Do you have another email > address or phone number for him? You could try posting to the newsgroup... I was just passing along the message "as is" since I don't know the guy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Tue Jan 9 15:18:40 2007 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:18:40 -0600 Subject: (somewhat OT) " Apple Computer, Inc." no more Message-ID: Jobs has announced a name change: "SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Apple Computer CEO Steve Jobs on Tuesday made the company's long-awaited jump into the mobile phone business and renamed the company to just "Apple Inc.," reflecting its increasing focus on consumer electronics. He said the name change is meant to reflect the fact that Apple has matured from a computer manufacturer to a full-fledged consumer electronics company." I wonder if "devolved" or "degraded" might better describe the change than "matured". Bob _________________________________________________________________ Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701 From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 9 15:23:33 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 16:23:33 -0500 Subject: (somewhat OT) " Apple Computer, Inc." no more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003001c73434$6ab09690$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Interesting, Dell did the same change a few years ago. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Feldman [mailto:r_a_feldman at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 4:19 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: (somewhat OT) " Apple Computer, Inc." no more Jobs has announced a name change: "SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Apple Computer CEO Steve Jobs on Tuesday made the company's long-awaited jump into the mobile phone business and renamed the company to just "Apple Inc.," reflecting its increasing focus on consumer electronics. He said the name change is meant to reflect the fact that Apple has matured from a computer manufacturer to a full-fledged consumer electronics company." I wonder if "devolved" or "degraded" might better describe the change than "matured". Bob _________________________________________________________________ Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701 From g at kurico.com Tue Jan 9 15:36:08 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:36:08 -0600 Subject: (somewhat OT) " Apple Computer, Inc." no more In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A40AC8.1000400@kurico.com> Robert Feldman wrote: > Jobs has announced a name change: > > "SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Apple Computer CEO Steve Jobs on Tuesday made > the company's long-awaited jump into the mobile phone business and > renamed the company to just "Apple Inc.," reflecting its increasing > focus on consumer electronics. > > He said the name change is meant to reflect the fact that Apple has > matured from a computer manufacturer to a full-fledged consumer > electronics company." > > I wonder if "devolved" or "degraded" might better describe the change > than "matured". > > Bob > Actually I disagree about "devolved" being a better description. Having used computers for a good while now (like most of us here), I am constantly frustrated by the fact that even though they are faster and cheaper, they are not necessarily "better". They, for the most part, have refused to integrate smoothly into our lives and instead remain temperamental little beasties that have to be carefully taken care of and handled. Anyone who can help drive them into devices that we can spend as much time using vs maintaining IMHO is making progress. Now the proof is in the pudding and we'll see if it lives up to the hype, but it certainly appears to be a step in the right direction. I wonder if Apple (the former computer company) paved the way for the name change in the last round of negotiations it had with Apple (the record label) as one of Apple's major arguments (hey, we're a computer company, no one would get confused) is now officially gone. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 9 16:00:41 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:00:41 -0700 Subject: (somewhat OT) " Apple Computer, Inc." no more In-Reply-To: <45A40AC8.1000400@kurico.com> References: <45A40AC8.1000400@kurico.com> Message-ID: <45A41089.3020603@jetnet.ab.ca> George Currie wrote: > I wonder if Apple (the former computer company) paved the way for the > name change in the last round of negotiations it had with Apple (the > record label) as one of Apple's major arguments (hey, we're a computer > company, no one would get confused) is now officially gone. I wonder that too, since Apple (comp) makes Ipods that could get confused with Apple (music). ??? From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 16:03:35 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 14:03:35 -0800 Subject: Are there M4 9914 9-track tape driver users on the list? In-Reply-To: <008901c7342f$4f1a7630$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <1e1fc3e90701091142u4581b231y24d2b032b7d15edd@mail.gmail.com> <008901c7342f$4f1a7630$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90701091403x2f7a7424l9c649145e5b8ecb6@mail.gmail.com> On 1/9/07, Jay West wrote: > Did you try inputting the CE unlock code and running the recalibration? May > help, certainly won't hurt at this point. > After I got a tape to load ok by fiddling with the tach roller for a while the drive does seem to work. I was able to use a linix machine to dd the 2.11BSD files to a tape in the 9914, and then used dos machine to read the tape back from the 9914 into a tap file using st, then verify that I could boot the tape image into a 2.11BSD installation using the demo version of Ersatz-11. So it would appear that the 9914 can write and read a tape now. > On my rollers, the rubber is perfectly fine. I lucked out I guess. > The rubber on the tach roller on my 9914 might have been ok if I didn't start rotating the roller for a while with my finger to see if I could get it to rotately more freely. Now that the rubber goo has been removed, I wonder if that has changed the diameter enough that the linear tape speed is different enough to cause interchange issues with tape written on other drives. Or is that not an issue? Is the timing information recovered from the data on the tape regardless of the tape speed, within reasonable tolerances? I still would like to know if I should lubricate the tach roller somehow, and re-rubber it somehow. But now I'm stumped on getting a real 11/73 box to boot from the 2.11BSD tape on the 9914 drive. Does anyone have a manual for the Dilog SQ703, or has anyone got one running in one of their systems? That's what I'm trying to use to connect the 9914 to the 11/73 box without much luck in trying to boot from the tape. This is the first time I have tried doing anything with a real 11/73 box so I'm new to this all around. Has anyone used a 9914 drive through the Pertec interface instead of the SCSI interface? It appears you could do that by removing the SCSI interface board and the access covers over the Pertec connectors in the back of the drive. I have a DQ142 (anyone have manuals for that? DU142 is on bitsavers, DQ142 is not) and wonder if that might be workable alternative to using the SQ703 with the 9914 if I can come up with some cables to hook the two together. -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 9 16:31:46 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:31:46 -0700 Subject: (somewhat OT) " Apple Computer, Inc." no more In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:36:08 -0600. <45A40AC8.1000400@kurico.com> Message-ID: In article <45A40AC8.1000400 at kurico.com>, George Currie writes: > [...] Anyone who can help drive them into devices that we can > spend as much time using vs maintaining IMHO is making progress. Computers aren't toasters. Attempts to make them act and behave like toasters will mutate them into toasters and they will stop being computers. What you're asking for has already happened, its just that because you don't know the computers are in there that they are functioning as designed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 9 16:42:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:42:47 -0700 Subject: Paul Allen's DECsystem-10 Message-ID: Is anyone else using this machine? I was thinking of getting ADVENT running on it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 9 16:59:47 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 14:59:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: (somewhat OT) " Apple Computer, Inc." no more In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070109145554.A65849@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Jan 2007, Richard wrote: > Computers aren't toasters. Attempts to make them act and behave like > toasters will mutate them into toasters and they will stop being > computers. "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone." - Bjarne Stroustrup > What you're asking for has already happened, its just that because you > don't know the computers are in there that they are functioning as > designed. Lau Tzu postulated that the best government is invisible; if you notice it, it is because something is wrong. If you never notice it, then that means that it is working correctly. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 9 17:04:52 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 15:04:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: (somewhat OT) " Apple Computer, Inc." no more In-Reply-To: <45A40AC8.1000400@kurico.com> References: <45A40AC8.1000400@kurico.com> Message-ID: <20070109150215.A65849@shell.lmi.net> > > Jobs has announced a name change: > > "SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Apple Computer CEO Steve Jobs on Tuesday made > > the company's long-awaited jump into the mobile phone business and > > renamed the company to just "Apple Inc.," reflecting its increasing > > focus on consumer electronics. > > He said the name change is meant to reflect the fact that Apple has > > matured from a computer manufacturer to a full-fledged consumer > > electronics company." > Robert Feldman wrote: > > I wonder if "devolved" or "degraded" might better describe the change > > than "matured". On Tue, 9 Jan 2007, George Currie wrote: > Actually I disagree about "devolved" being a better description. Having > used computers for a good while now (like most of us here), I am > constantly frustrated by the fact that even though they are faster and > cheaper, they are not necessarily "better". "matured" v "devolved" v "degraded" has NOTHING to do with whether computers are getting better or worse. It is ENTIRELY about the transition from being a computer company into being a consumer electronics company. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 9 17:19:02 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 15:19:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun plastics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <311545.88787.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > What you do is put the plastic parts together and > run a brush dipped in > the solvent along the crack. For a stronger join, I > cut a piece of cotton > frabric to fit over the hack of the repair, put it > in place and 'paint' > it with the solvent. Then push the cotton into the > softened plastic. For parts that mate on the flat, you can always bond a strip of whatever over the area where 2 parts join, just where a viewer can't see it. Same basically applies if the crack spans an area where the case has angles. Something like that... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 9 17:32:11 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 15:32:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: laptops and 5.25 inch floppy drives? In-Reply-To: <45A2F090.3030003@brutman.com> Message-ID: <297605.11905.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> >That's why God made Catweasels. Yeah, one of those would be nice I suppose. I'm just too cheap. "And GCR doesn't imply varaible data rate or spindle speed. That Durango that I posted a web page on used GCR to good advantage without fooling with spindle speed (almost a 1MB on a 360K 5.25" diskette). I believe that Microtech marketed a PC that worked similarly (although I'd have to check to make sure). I think someone's written a Catweasel driver that fits almost 4MB on a 1.44MB diskette..." Yeah and what was the point of making that chick suspend the thing in air while they snapped the picture? I think the picture would have been just as alluring if they set it on a table and had her embellish it that manner. The Victor 9000 places 1.2 megs (how conveniently deceptive) on a DD floppy. I know it uses GCR encoding, and yes that doesn't equate to a variable speed spindle, just that commonly they go together (it seems anyway). I'm not sure if it does, but my guess is yes > Macintosh GCR diskettes (400K/800K) require a wider > range of data transfer > rates, but can be done with the "DELUXE Option > Board" or the "Catweasel". Now that's good news, because I know the Macs have variable spindle rates (that was my whole point about getting a REAL vintage Mac! You get to hear the whir-WHIR-whir-whir-WHIR-whir). I have an apparently early version of the "Deluxe" Option Board (were all them designated Deluxe?). It uses all discrete logic. I was pointed to a site that had all or most of the associated warez, but I've yet to try it out. If it wasn't obvious, the underlying subject of this part of thread is how to deal with the lack of a Victor 9000 boot floppy. > Sirius/Victor 9000 diskettes should be doable with > the flux transition > boards, but last time that I needed to, there was a > Victor 9000 handy, so > we just shoved the data through the serial port. It's been a while *obviously* but aren't the means to format individual tracks embedded in the rom-bios? Or were those dos services? I have a few books out in the shed, maybe I should just look it up! I had envisioned a scheme by which I could hack onto the bios so a blank floppy could be formatted in a V9000, and subsequently the date/image from a normal floppy could be transferred to it (I have a whole boatload of images for the machine, but I'm not quite sure how they created the image of a boot floppy...or why if it can't be created w/o a bootable V9000). *went out to the shed. Yes there is present in the BIOS a service to format tracks. Not all clones comply in this way though (but where would the routine to do this be if not in the bios?). I noticed in the docs for my NEC APC III that DOS function calls were more or less the same as a vanilla pc, but I don't recall seeing mention of the equivalent BIOS calls. Anyone know?* __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 9 17:35:06 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 16:35:06 -0700 Subject: (somewhat OT) " Apple Computer, Inc." no more In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A426AA.6030104@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > What you're asking for has already happened, its just that because you > don't know the computers are in there that they are functioning as > designed. I don't need a puter in *my* toaster. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 9 17:38:23 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 16:38:23 -0700 Subject: Paul Allen's DECsystem-10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A4276F.8000505@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Is anyone else using this machine? > I was thinking of getting ADVENT running on it. You can do that with a PDP-8. :) So what was the typical usage for a average user on a PDP-10 back then? Word processing? Computer Science? Acounting? Fortran programs? From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 9 17:47:49 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 16:47:49 -0700 Subject: Paul Allen's DECsystem-10 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 09 Jan 2007 16:38:23 -0700. <45A4276F.8000505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <45A4276F.8000505 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > > I was thinking of getting ADVENT running on it. > You can do that with a PDP-8. :) Well, it would be a royal PITA for me. The only PDP-8 that I have is a DECmate I w/out the RX floppy drives. But this wasn't a question of *what* machines I can use to run ADVENT. The question was: is anyone else using a login on Paul Allen's DECsystem-10 or TOAD? I think the most I ever did with the DEC-10 at UDel was play ADVENT on it :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 9 18:01:18 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 16:01:18 -0800 Subject: Paul Allen's DECsystem-10 In-Reply-To: <45A4276F.8000505@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <45A4276F.8000505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 4:38 PM -0700 1/9/07, woodelf wrote: >S